July 1998
Nathan: Congratulations. Don't sweat the money. My first job after
college was with the U.S. Government for a paltry 12,000 dollars a year.
My friends, all students at Georgetown University, School of Foreign Service,
thought I was either nuts or lacked the self-worth necessary to get a "real"
job (read: Agency, State, NSA, NSC, etc.) Well, they were wrong. Stay true,
work hard, be honest. You will achieve your goals. Oh, and here's a latin
phrase for you (doubtless misspelled): Illigitemum non carbundum.
Bain
P.S. Hey, I didn't do pre-law before getting my law degree so I never learned Latin. What's the point of learning a dead language? You can't really use it pick up live girls. At least not the cute ones.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Any woman, Anytime USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 00:17:44 (EDT)
Bryan <canjumper@hotmail.com>
Ottawa, Ont Canada - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 00:50:52 (EDT)
To Molly Coat or not to Molly Coat: I'm a firm believer in Molly Coating bullets for the type of shooting I do. I LOVE to shoot and I LOVE to shoot a lot. The Molly coating keeps my barrel cool in target rich environments and removes the requirement for frequent cleaning during a day of shooting.
I hope this info helps some of you prairie dog and paper/steel target
snipers.
Mike O'Brien <atrus@coffey.com>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 02:16:07 (EDT)
To James: I agree with you and Rick... some of the MOST beautiful women I've ever seen are Latin ladies.
To Kodiak: I could give you an eight-digit grid coordinate for both ranges, but... you'd probably be a LOT better off just spending a few bucks on... "a map." Beyond this, send me an E-mail, I'll give you my phone number, and you can run up your long-distance bill... but you know what? I'm going to use "a map" to give you directions. :-) Or, if you're REALLY slick... you can use some of the free mapping software available on the Internet ("Map-It!" for one example) to plot your course. Which Chicago suburb did you move to?
To Rick: You made an earlier comment about bad brass (and wildcats). As a handloader, it really annoys me that even the "best" names in the business, in this country, don't put better care into the construction of component brass. In and of itself, brass can make or break a decent load.
To SGT Gimmellie: TWO pages??? That's IT? Well, at least we hit the bit time, eh?
To Nathan: I'm glad I was able to (re-?)assure you. However, though I drank sufficient quantities of beer, I did NOT flirt with the women. I was QUITE serious!
To Jinx: Now, though my background is very heavy in mathematics and,
to a degree, physics... my actual degree is in psychology. So, I "might"
be wrong, but if you're shortening a barrel and NOT losing velocity, I'd
just HAVE to think that you've got a rough barrel with lots of friction.
Again, if I'm wrong, someone explain this one to me. And the whole idea
of riflings, in the first place (which, by the way, were originally straight,
not twisted, as I recall), was to give the accuracy-impairing fouling residue
a place to go. As for different types of riflings, I think it's somewhat
common knowledge that versions such as the Rock 5R deform the bullet less
than other types, and also contribute (somewhat) to barrel longevity. When
someone starts talking about short barrels and maintaining velocity, I
get suspicious. Again, I'm open for a discussion on this topic. As for
accuracy, once the bullet is stabilized by the rifling, length is inconsequential
except for velocity (i.e., "complete" -- hopefully -- powder burning).
Though dependent on the powder type, shorter barrels usually result in
rather interesting muzzle flashes (read, "flame throwers") which produce
a visual signature that is NOT tactically "cool" in a sniping environment.
I personally feel barrel length (selection) should be based to some degree
on the type of powder (and the cartridge) that will be used, to enhance
the likelihood of a complete burn. The bottomline is that a shooter should
know the characteristics of his ammunition.
To Fred: I had a dream that you broke into my gun safe and removed
all the scopes from my rifles. Accordingly, I woke up in a cold sweat and
dashed down to the arms room to investigate... thankfully, it had only
been a nightmare, and all the scopes were intact. <
To Torsten: As I scrolled down the Duty Roster farther, I found that you supported my commentary on the length/rifling type discussion. Thanks.
To Phil: NO NO NO! I was not ("NOT") in an erotic film, featuring Mona, the wonderbabe, while in Wiesbaden. (Note to any of my senior raters: When completing my next OER, please disregard any of the inane ramblings you find on this page.)
To Nathan: That MMPI thing is the Minnesota Multi-Phasic Inventory. It's full of double and triple "circuits" that will usually catch whether you're sane, insane, or attempting to lie. It's generally the preferred choice of methods (in conjunction with a face-to-face interview with a psychiatrist or psychologist) to evaluate one's fitness for a certain position or situation. Aside from this, good luck with the job.
In general: I just cleaned up a bunch of double posts... and who comes along and double posts again? KODIAK!!! Grrrrrr.
SGT Gimmellie: I was thinking the SAME thing (about Nathan not getting into the great Nauga discussion)!
To Gooch: You cracked me up with your liberty story!
To James: Given the choice between man's best friend, or a lovely
lady, or an airstrike... well, patch me through to S-3 Air anytime. Bayonets?
Why, James... they're the weapon of choice for gangbangers, don't you know???
Relatively useless these days, however, thanks to the Brady Law. (gag,
puke, violent wretching)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 02:30:52 (EDT)
is that you on page 40 in DFA IV ???
Torsten
Germany - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 04:20:46 (EDT)
now, I don't know that specific gunshop, but I do believe I've seen
the name.
Next time you're in SA give me a heads-up before the time and we
can meet - I'm just 50km from Johannesburg International Airport. It is
Drakensburg ( you left out the S ), which means Mountains of the Dragon.
Kodiak,
you only say that ( about the girls ), 'cause it's true :-)
Gooch,
regarding the wind. Downrange, closer to the target, with your bullet
being slower, the wind will have a greater affect on the bullet AT THAT
POINT. However, the TOTAL affect will be larger with the wind closer to
the muzzle.
Look at it like this: Say you're shooting 1000 yards. Close to the
muzzle you have a wind which causes a drift of .5 MOA. Downrange that is
still .5 MOA, which translates to 5 inches.
Same scenario, but your wind is 500 yards downrange. First assume
the affect is still .5 MOA, BUT, and here's the but, that .5 MOA is only
effective for the LATTER half of the range. This is thus in effect a .25
MOA drift from your position, which translates to 2.5 inch.
But, we know that the same wind out a 500 yards will have a greater
actual affect on the bullet due to the fact that the velocity is lower,
as will be the spin rate. Whether this will be greater in total affect
than the one close by, I am not sure, from a mathematical point, but from
experience I'd say the one downrange have a slightly larger affect - depending
of course HOW far downrange.
Any other comments? Or am I off the mark there?
Marius
Marius <mferreiral@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 07:22:47 (EDT)
O'Brien: I too have noticed a definite lowering of barrel temperature with moly coated bullets. One thing to note, if any of you are shooting mily, CHRONOGRAPH that load! If you are using your old podwer charge you will see a definite lowering of velocity. Using 41.5 grains of IMR 4064 I went from 2590 avg to 2450 avg. Bumping up the charge to 42.3 brought the load back to 2600 and maintained the same accuracy level of my prior uncoated load. Generally this 2% increase is required.
Fred: We shall for ever, from this day, refer to you as Iron Fred. Or Globe boy. Which ever you prefer! By the way folks, in case you aren't away, Fred Fisher is the guy who came to the Hathcock Charity competition with a Shiloh Sharps rifle. Globe front sight and ladder type rear sight!
Paul: I totally agree with your assesment of the wind. This is not
what is generally tought, but never the less does appear to be the reality
of it. The winds closer to you have more time to act upon the bullet. The
wind 50 feet from the target is nearly irrelevent.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 10:20:11 (EDT)
I can shoot, but I sure can't type!
FIDO
Scott <xring
- I can shoot, but can't type!>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 10:27:39 (EDT)
Dan: I've got some dimensional corrections to the press mount drawing to forward.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 12:52:57 (EDT)
Go figure.
So, if all is NOT well, I apologise, but I can't verify, but it SHOULD be fine.
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 15:12:09 (EDT)
To Stagger: OK, I'll bite, "HOW BIG IS IT??????
To SGT Gimmelle: What's the diff between the current SOCOM .45 and the one you saw?
To anyone I missed, (getting old here), that answered, thanks!!!!!
The info did help. I want to shoot one and try it for size, (it's big ya
know), and go from there. Thanks again!!!!!
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 16:11:33 (EDT)
Drop me an E-mail and I'll send you my phone number. No, you're not "badgering" me, and please don't feel like you are. And if you just want to come on over to my house (all the way across the state), I'll just take you to the ranges. For that matter, it'd give me a chance to "reach out" a bit. I'm not a member of the Milan club, but I know a few folks who are and can get us in. And if you're over "x" miles (50?), you get a discount off your membership. As for New Brunswick, my Dad's been there several times (I think I've shot trap there, when I was much younger), and he could get us there. Milan is "right next door" as things go around my area, and New Brunswick is less than an hour's drive from my house.
To Torsten: "Buzzworm?" Do you mean a rattlesnake?
To Big Ed: On the cleaning kit... heck, they've got them in
the PXes now, so I'm going to have to get one (or two). Like you, I was
impressed with what I read, which is why I posted it. I'm glad I was able
to help. You made my day!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 18:22:26 (EDT)
Do any of you SF guys speak any Canadian? I've got to get ready for the matches. Talked to Warrant Tregar at the Gagetown Master Sniper Cell yesterday and he told me that as long as I put "eh" on the end of every sentence and bring up the inflection on the end of a sentence I would be okay. Is that right, eh?
Is it proper to call a nasty looking transvestite a drag bag?
Master Jarrett. I know another difference between SF and Force Recon.
SF guys know how to use a compass. But, you can't tell me that you SF guys
don't snuggle with those Air Force specops guys. Those C130 flights can
get awfully long.
Just stirring things up.
Mortus via longus. (Marine latin)
Gooch
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood , AR USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 19:20:38 (EDT)
To Gooch:
Wind at the muzzle needs to have only a small effect on the bullet
to have a large effect at the target.
To Mr Bain:
Good quote, bad spelling. I first saw it in the office of a grizzled
old female doctor who told me it was the thing that got her through medical
school in the 30's. To the rest of you it is "Never let the bastards wear
you down!" Keeps me going on my bad days too.
We had our first use of Tactical Weapons right here in Mineral County the other day. I wasn't there (off sick) but all turned out well. The dead beat had been in a shootout with his ex-girl friend's new flame, the new flame lost, took cover behind a trailer wall (bad choice) and even though he returned effective fire wounding the dead beat, he may not make it out of intensive care. The dead beat theen took his wounded self off into the woods. The next day he was located and after a two hour chase/standoff he put the muzzle of his 22 mag rifle to his mouth and the designated sniper shot the rifle out of his hands from about 100 yds or so. Not sure I approve but am awaiting further details and a chance to talk with the sniper.
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Still Alive in, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 20:25:40
(EDT)
Sgt. Gimmellie
va USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 20:34:38 (EDT)
Nathan:
Get the ASP, you will have it with you when you need it.
Torsten:
When you come to the states, don't miss West Virginia! Besides we
have the Storm Mountain Training Center here and it is worth a look.
Iron Fred:
With friends like you...........
Speeking of women, I've noticed that none of you have mentioned West Virginia. Is this some kind of conspericy?
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Somewhere in, Wet Wet WET West Virginia USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998
at 21:08:27 (EDT)
To Marius;
I was in "Joberg for a day last year and will be back in Aug or
Sept. I hunt down in the Eastern Cape where I practice stalking skills
on Vaal Rheebok and Blesbuck. I did get lost in Bloemfontaine for a while
though. Note the above post on the wind closer to the shooter issue.
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 21:45:28 (EDT)
This is getting entirely too long so I'll leave off here and guys email me with your arguements! I'd love to hear more on this, Gooch you are an evil man!!! Ref the Kit and Caboddle, I've used it ever since I got a free one in the 80s. Best field cleaning kit for any rifle, just purchase a muzzel guide to make the kit complete.
Latin what the heck is latin? I thought that was a dead language! Just remember guys, there are only two type of people in this world, snipers and targets.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 21:59:12 (EDT)
Anyone ever mess with a Beretta 96 in 40 S&W?
Sgt. Gimellie: Cute pic in SOF magazine. I hear you are in another mag, so now you are an international celebrity! Now all you need to do is tag team with Russ and me and "Mona" and .......never mind.
ASP batons are real good? I am just familiar with PR-24's, but I am young and dumb and just stupid enough to buy into any advice that anyone has to offer me. If someone on this site recommends some equipment, then I am game.
As an Okie from Muskogee that has journeyed to West Va and other locales across the fruited plain, I can say that the people of West Va are, uh, "interesting". Hee hee, snort. Arkansas is not far away form here, and Adair County, Okla is legendary. The women here are, well, the type you see on Jerry Springer. So, if that floats your boat then more power to you. I like exotic women. Who is Mona? :-) Wonder what she is doing tonight :-)
I am being fitted for my uniform tomorrow. Also, tomorrow (July 2nd) is my 22nd birthday. I gifts have been registered at US Cavalry and Les Baer. I prefer sparkling champagne and Samuel Adams beer. Send to following address........
Finally, someone was walking by when I read about my non- involvment in the great Nauga debate. They asked what I nauga was and I replied, " It is a ferocious animal that roams the woods, eating snipes at night. Care must be taken when you shoot them or you will just piss them off and they will eat you." No reply was given. My silence? Well, I am silent for the same reason grandpa was quiet about his war experiences. Nauga hunting has a strange affect on the psyche. You see, I have found that there is no hunting like the hunting of Naugas. And once I have hunted Naugas, and liked them, I never have cared for hunting anything else.
Good shooting and Illigetitemum non carbundum,
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 22:21:25 (EDT)
The matches in Canada are held 23-31 July at Connaught Ranges in Ottawa, Ontario eh. The ranges are actually nearer Nepean. Contact the DCRA, 45 Shirley Blvd., Nepean, Ontario, K2K 2W6. (613)829-8281, Fax - (613)990-0434, E-mail "office@dcra.ca" and web site "www.dcra.ca". Look under entry forms on the web site under National Service Rifle Championships eh.
Sniper matches consist of the following:
Match 61: Two sighters, 7 on score. 300m. Sniper head tgt. shoot/no shoot. 10-12 exposures of 3-5 seconds each.
Match 62: No sighters. 10 for score. 400m. Moving targets. 10 meter sector/6 second exposure.
Match 63: 1 sighter. 10 on score. 500m. Snap shooting. 10 exposures, 3-5 seconds/exposure.
Match 64: No sighters. 10 rounds/shooter. 200-600m. Fire and movement. 1- 7 second exposure per shooter, 2 shots per exposure, 45 second change over to other shooter and repeat. Run back to next yardline eh.
Match 65: 1 sighter. 10 rounds on score/man. 800m. 20 minutes/team eh.
Targets are international combat targets (cartoon w/scoring rings). Both shooters must use the same rifle. Normal 2 man team configuration eh.
Come on up and shoot eh!
Do you guys think I'm evil? Rick thinks I'm evil. I'm offended. Hurt my feelings! Wait.....it passed. Rick is mean. Do you guys know that he is mean to his students? I hear he puts mean statements on their DA1059's. Rick is a mean man.
Guinness is good food.
Gooch out.
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 00:12:57 (EDT)
Also they call the sniper matches "precision rifle". PC you know eh.
Gooch
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 00:18:21 (EDT)
The effect of wind would SEEM to have a greater effect if it occurred at distances closer to the muzzle than at farther ranges. In a way this is true, but ONLY if bullet velocity is constant during the entire time of flight. Basically, due to decreasing velocity of the projectile, and a constantly increasing time of flight (decreasing velocity of the projectile as distance from the muzzle increases) to the objective as distance increases, wind has more effect further DOWN RANGE. Right, What does THAT mean? It is best explained if I list the results of some calcs. The calcs are for a 338 Win.Mag 210gr. Nosler Partition Federal Premium Safari with a BC of 0.400, muzzle vel. of 2835 fps and a Federal .308 cal 168 gr. Match with a BC of 0.475, MV of 2600 fps.
bullet: .338, wind @ 3 o’clock
range(yds) deflection at 6 mph (in.) deflection at 28 mph (in.)
Time of Flight (secs.)
0 0 0 0
500 13.1 61.1 .653
1000 65.7 306.7 1.680
1500 168.3 785.3 3.180
2000 307.0 1432.7 5.023
bullet: .308, wind @ 3 o’clock
range(yds) deflection at 6 mph (in.) deflection at 28 mph (in.)
Time of Flight (secs.)
0 0 0 0
500 13.1 61.1 .653
1000 65.7 306.7 1.680
1500 168.3 785.3 3.180
2000 307.0 1432.7 5.023
Looking at the numbers... (and the ratios hold for both loads) at 6 mph wind for the entire distance of 2000 yds. you would have to have a wind of 28 mph for 1000 yds, and 0 thereafter to have the same deflection. In other words.... you would need a wind speed 5 times greater for first half distance to a target to get the same deflection as the slower wind speed the entire distance to the target. Right, the distances are not realistic for most shooting purposes, but, the ratios hold for all distances. i.e. To have an equal effect, the wind speed would have to be 5 times greater for the first half distance to have a significant effect. Note that both projectiles show the same proportionate effects.
From a different approach..... the numbers show a 5x greater deflection for 2x increase in distance (3x increase in time of flight). Extrapolate to your hearts content!!
Butch <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
N'awlins, LA USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 01:46:53 (EDT)
0 0 0 0
500 12.1 56.6 .691
1000 58.7 273.8 1.709
1500 148.8 694.4 3.139
2000 271.4 1266.9 4.878
Butch <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
N'awlins, LA USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 02:14:36 (EDT)
Si vis pacem para bellum !
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Viele schöne, Mädchen in Deutschland - Thursday, July 02,
1998 at 04:17:45 (EDT)
On wind: This is some GOOD stuff being shared here! Keep it up. And hey, Torsten? What's your formula for those home-made smokers (sand/gas/oil mixture)?
On ballistics software: I shared an E-mail I received a couple of days ago with the rest of the Sniper Country Council, from a guy who is writing a ballistics package. He wanted to know what should be included, what shooters would like to have, and so on. If you guys want to send me your comments and suggestions, I'll compile them and forward them to the guy. (I got him to agree to send us an evaluation copy when he gets it done.)
Well, I might as well tell you guys. On 23 Jun 98, the local newspaper (two newspapers, actually, owned by the same corporation) ran a "large" (as in "l a r g e") article on... "me." Big color picture, taking up the upper half of the page, the front page of the "life" section. I live in an area called the Quad Cities (Rock Island, Moline, East Moline in Illinois, and Davenport, Iowa), and the "BIG," bold-print, three-inch high headline at the top of the page read "Q C SNIPER" (and I tell you as honest as I can truthfully be, I was expecting just a 3x3-inch picture, with a "little" caption that read something like "local resident runs sniper webpage"... so some bullhockey like that... but oh NOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo... it was a two-page article, with the big picture. And, on the front page of one of the two newspapers, they even ran a 3x3-inch inset in the upper right corner. Thankfully... it was a "good" article. Had a better "flavor" than the WSJ piece, which was actually the reason the paper did the story on me. A few inaccuracies ("I" started the site in 1995... and a couple of minor administrative errors), but overall a very good piece. So far, I've been given about 25 copies by friends and work associates. Also... people seem to be very "nice" to me, these days. Hmmmm, I wonder why. So, with this recent piece on me and this site, the WSJ article, the Soldier of Fortune article, and various other mentions here and there... we're definitely getting ourselves established in the law enforcement and military sniping communities. Those of us who run this site owe all of you who visit it, a debt of gratitude -- for your intelligence, integrity, honesty, compassion, maturity, and experience -- because without you folks, we wouldn't be what we are... the premier sniper-related website on the Internet.
I guess the spotting scope discussion died off... but did "we" decide that the Kowa was pretty much the best bet for the money (for us po' folks)? If so, which model?
And by the way... would do you folks think about Sniper Country adding a "wish list" page? My thinking is that it would be, eventually, a place where people in the gun and accessories industries would visit from time to time to see what we "buyers" are interested in having. Just a short comment, yay or nay, please, either in an E-mail or here.
Finally, did you guys know that we have an UPCOMING
FIELD EVENTS page for you to post information about upcoming events?
It's also for inquiries about the location of shooting ranges in your area.
Make use of it, because it's there for you.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 07:05:45 (EDT)
Rick: you have the best solution. Judge wind at mid-range, in effect, splitting the difference. Obviously a 20 mph mid range wind is going to have more effect than a five mph wind at the muzzle! Common sense seems to be the rule here. In the end is would seem that in reading wind, no pat answer can be relied on as the wind varies constantly at all ranges, switching direction and speed with evil regularity! Hell, I am still amazed we hit anything when the wind is screaming, but the charts do work and the target goes GONG!
Russ: On the Kowa. The TS-611 is a very good scope if you only have about $400 to spend ($300 for scope, $125 for eyepiece). It is also the most reasonably sized of the Kowa series. The TSN-1 is awesome, but large. The newest addition is water resistant, but large AND very expensive. For the average Jo, the TS-611 makes the most sense. With the addition of a $30 screw on water resistent cap, the eye piece can be made relatively water proof, eliminating one of the largest complaint on just about every quality scope available to the civi world. Also the TS-611 with 25x LER eyepiece is actually clearer than the 20x Unertl scope sitting here on my desk.
By the way, if you are looking for a spotting scope, do not forget to carefully consider whether you want a straight eyepiece design or a 45 degree eyepiece. The 45 is excellent for High Power matches and for most general use, but is a real disadvantage for the type of spotting you do in tactical shooting. The 45, if set vertically, puts your head way high and makes you strain your neck, not to mention exposing you, and if placed horizontal to the ground, it gives you an unatural feel when aiming the device. A straight through design seems much more effective for the sniping role. I believe Kowa does offer straight designs as does Unertl.
Last note, if you need a spotting scope and are tempted to purchase
any of the x-brand units from the usual optic manufacturers, just save
your money. Bushnells, Tascos, Refields and even some Leupolds and just
not worth the money. At least in their lower grade units. Sadly, in this
tihng, you really do get what you pay for. A straight taper Bushnell for
$99 is about as usefull as a pipe filled with bat guano.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 08:16:41 (EDT)
I use old Jam cans about 10" dia. and 12" high and fill them with
dry sand. Use about 2/3 old Motor oil and 1/3 gasoline and saturate the
sand. If you really want dark, like in a bears butt dark! you can sprinkle
some rubber granules from a old car tire on top of the burning pot. We
have a local tire recycling place here that gives the stuff away.
I always put an old metal tray (like under the Hummer) under the
pot to keep any leaks contained and stop the stuff from flaming up the
range.
Stirr the stuff every second trip to the targets to keep it going
and it should last a couple of hours.
All you need is two pots, one at the target and one half way. Unless
you like wearing a NBC Mask during sessions ? kinky stuff !!
Kowa´s
I have just sold a Swarowski Spotting scope and found my Kowa TSN
31 Prominar by far superior.
I get a kick out of having other shooters and hunters look trough
it and compare with their Swar´s or Zeiss´ and others. Since
mine is all wrapped up in Burlap its hard to tell what it is thats beating
their´s.
Horrido !
Ende
Torsten <Lasercon@home.globe.de>
You cant see me, but I can see you Germany - Thursday, July 02, 1998
at 09:17:09 (EDT)
Stay out of trouble and dont eat to many Doughnut´s
Torsten
germany - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 09:38:34 (EDT)
To Mike O'Brian: Thanks for the info, I'll tell him to call and get the address to send it to, should be worth the time.....I hear it's very good ammo.
To All: Happy 4th!!!!!!! Stay safe, shoot well,
Out here....
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 15:20:16 (EDT)
Oh, by the way. Everyone is talking about how great different women
are. Well I've got one for you. I recently bought my wife a little golden
retriever puppy. She looked at the puppy patted its little head and said
"Oh Al, now you've made my life almost complete. The only thing I need
now is a sniper rifle." What a woman! I love her! I guess I'll have to
build "her" one.
Al
Al o. <aaostapowicz.worldnet.att.net>
mantua, ohio USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 15:56:44 (EDT)
FREEFALL SNIPER OUT !!!
T - 2
DENWOOD, ALBERTA USACANADA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 16:05:05 (EDT)
al
Al . O. <aaostapowicz.worldnet.att.net>
mantua, USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 16:09:22 (EDT)
Just a quick FYI. 164 centimeters equals 5 foot 4 1/2 inches.
George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 17:28:31 (EDT)
OUT HERE, TANGO'S ARE HALOing IN ABOUT N0W
SEMPER FI
BIG D
NOTELLIN, WHERE USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 18:22:37 (EDT)
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Still living in, West Virginia USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 18:55:22
(EDT)
To Rick: Is Tip number 2 considered cheating?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 23:15:13 (EDT)
If your out there, e-mail me. I dont have your address and i have your package ready to send out, it seems that all my saved e-mail was ate up by spooks or critters.
reaper6 out
JOHN W <REAPER6>
TX USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 23:21:54 (EDT)
Russ - On spotting scopes, I agree 100% with Torston and Scott, the Kowa is the only way to go! Expensive though, the TSN 1 is outstanding if your situation permits a large scope the new scope by Kowa is even better, but bigger and even more expensive, the TS-611 is the ONLY way to go if you have to crawl with the sucker! But you can't beat them for clarity and reading wind or trace. I, however, like the 45 degree angle scope. This allows me to spot from a very low position for myself, and when acting as an observer I can place the scope in the crook of the shooter's body to get on gun target line. This also permits me to set the scope on the edge of a window and observe an area with out exposing my body. Yes, the angle takes some getting used to but it is worth the hassel.
Torston, honest, I'm not ignoring your email. I'm triing to set up that deal for you and want info before I fully respond. Jan 1999 we will be in instructor train up with no class running. This would be a good time but I need clearence from the highers!
Lt. Kacmar - The M4/20mm combo would be smaller than that great piece of junk called the 203! Ammo would also be smaller and lighter than the 40mm with almost identical burst radius with the addition af AP and other "special rounds". Weapon attachment would look more like a shotgun than an over sized sewer pipe! And as every kid knows with his walkman, carry backup batteries! Actually we don't use any of that whiz bang, only the attached blazer flashlight for close in work.
Scott - On the wind, as you said, its all magic. I tell the students that after a few days of calling "from the gut" they WILL hit. Seems to work with most, some have just got to figure it out and they never learn because of that need to figure it out.
Nathan - Go with the ASP man. Got my daughter (four years on the force now) one and she loves it. Just opening it stopped four guys from triing anything one night, decided I was bigger than they thought!
Last note on the SOCOM 45, alot of guys here at our compound tested it and didn't like it. Too big and awkward for them.
Gooch - You're still an evil man, don't even consider slope discussions!
Guys, keep shooting and stay safe!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 23:51:10 (EDT)
Now I'm out of here!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 00:01:41 (EDT)
I need information about Muzzle Brakes. Do they affect accuracy? Which types are the best and where do I find a good one?
I am thinking about putting one on a heavy barreled Rem 700, .300 WinMag.
Any help or information you can provide would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Brian Middleton <bmiddleton@sprynet.com>
Irvine (MCAS El Toro), CA USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 00:57:24 (EDT)
To LT Kacmar: As to what makes a good eatin' snake? Depends on how
hungry you are. I've only dined on Buzzworms, (rattlesnakes). They taste
like rabbit which tastes like chicken to some people. The larger the diameter,
the better they are to eat. The meat is tasty but stringy and skinny snakes
are just too much work to eat unless you're really hungry. They can be
roasted over the fire, pan fried in butter and garlic, (my favorite), or
cut into chunks and deep fried. For the health conscience, Buzzworms are
a low fat diet.
Mike O'Brien <atrus@coffey>
Evansville , WY USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 01:29:26 (EDT)
To George (in the matter of Mona): I can ASSURE you she was MUCH closer to 5'9" than to 5'4.5". And it wasn't 164 centimeters, I told you it was 1 meter, 64 centimeters. Attention to detail. Get down and give me 25 (pushups)!!!
To Scott, Torsten, and Rick: Thanks for the Kowa recommendations.
To Al: That's quite some wife you've got there. My gunsmith is selling his sniper rifle, which I'm posting on the Emporium, if you're interested. It's a shooter.
To Terry ( "Doc"): !%^@#^!#$@!, stop listening to "people." Hell, don't even listen to US! Listen, if you're shooting the thing and hitting the way you want, then tell the others (your nay-saying associates) to buzz off! Gosh dang it, heck, and foul language... James Jarrett and I, and some others, have been trying to say you do NOT have to go into the poor house just to shoot pretty little groups! Hey, if you're an oil tycoon, then go for it... but it sounds like you've got a fair rig now. If anything, maybe trade your scope for a good, fixed 10-power. God, I hate to see people spend money when they don't need to! Just spend more time at the range and to heck with your "pals!" On Federal versus Winchester (match): use what shoots best in YOUR gun! Winchester shot less accurately than Federal in my rifle, but so what? USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU! (At least try a box of the Federal, though, just to help you make your decision.)
To Brian: E-mail me offline for some extensive information on muzzle
brakes. Building my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum "1500-yard, target interdiction
rifle," I researched the topic of brakes pretty thoroughly. If installed
by a "good" gunsmith, they should have very little detriment to accuracy,
if any, but there are a number of factors involved.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 06:33:19 (EDT)
Anxiously waiting
Jinx
Fayetteville, N.C. USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 07:42:40 (EDT)
Notso"innocent observer" <willadams@mindspring.com>
Deep South, USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 09:57:48 (EDT)
We've removed the offending post. Our apologies to any who was offended by it. I can assure you the tenor and the language of the post do not in any way reflect our views!
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 11:25:07 (EDT)
even straighter shooting:)
Haraldur Gustafsson <hallig@austurland.is>
Egilsst., Iceland - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 11:59:24 (EDT)
On the wind thang. The reason I asked it was #1 Because I was hanging out with some neophyte highpower shooters or students (one of the two) awhile back and one of them brought up the subject of MSgt Owens book and the deal of the wind at the muzzle. Now being an old stuck in my ways (and evil I guess) crusty sniper I kind of just dismissed it.
I was always taught and have taught and used the practice of checking the wind at least at the midway point and maybe a couple of more depending on the distance to the target and the topographical characteristics of the terrain. (You like that Rick? TOPOGRAPHICAL, big word huh?) You use mirage, observation of tree, grass movement etc. to get velocity, direction etc. Anyway....So I blew off these guys and continued to be velcroed to the old way right? I recently have gotten into the groove of re-researching some of this stuff we take for gospel. And I thought I would use the mass of throbbing grey matter out there in cyber land to check out the MSgt Owens thing. If I can get my old USMC Range Officer compadre Tom Skeer, the current USMC rifle team OIC and sniper, to join in the fray we can really have fun with some of this stuff.
Damn. I forgot the other reason I brought up the subject...The mind is a terrible thing.
Have you guys who run this thing ever thought about a news letter or a World Sniping Confederation type thing?
Oh yea!! The National Guard Marksmanship Training Unit here in North
Little Rock in the great Clinton home land has started the Association
of Marksmen in the National Guard. What they hope for it to turn into is
a central association for miltary and tactical marksmen. I guess kind of
like the NRA used to be before they began their political adventures. The
association ran the interservice pistol matches this year and is eventually
going to get a web site, newsletter etc. If any one is interested call
NGMTU at (501)212-4510, 4520 or 4530. Our DSN prefix is (962) if anyof
you guys have access to DSN. It is open to every one who wants in.
Except Rick. He is a mean man.
TIme to publish this thing.
Gooch.
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 12:40:17 (EDT)
Nathan: Just get through the academy...everyone takes lateral hires.
Good luck and congrats!!!
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@Co.cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, WA USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 13:15:16 (EDT)
Be verrrrrry careful about using another shooters' impacts on target to judge the wind.
Using your own impacts to judge the wind is a marginal technique to begin with. It's referred to as "chasing the bull". You fire a bad shot, correct for wind, fire a good shot, now you're off, move back to the original yada yada. Except in rapid fire, each shot should be wind doped on it's own and in rapid fire you do it on the magazine change. By using bullet impact you are ASSUMING that a) it was a good call and b) The wind hasn't changed since the last shot. Note I said it was "marginal". You can do it sometimes if you know what you are doing and are firing good shots to begin with.
Make a good wind call, fire a good shot. E plurabus unum.
I also find that burying chicken bones behind the 600 yardline works to increase your luck with the wind. Also try to shoot when the grass is over 7 inches tall as it slows the wind down. (Humor guys!)
Rick is just chomping at the bit to begin a conversation on angle shooting guys. Dare we? Who wants to start? Before we do warn me so I can stock up on Tylenol.
CG says I'm done.
Gooch out.
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
SHerwood, AR USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 13:16:37 (EDT)
To Haraldur: Thanks for the metrics lesson. I hate metrics. Well, whatever, I'm tellin' ya, she was about five FEET nine INCHES tall -- so one of you metric Einsteins convert it into metrics.
I've got some N-550 that I'll be loading in my .308 Winchester (bolt) loads, eventually. I'll let you know how things work out.
To Gooch: Just yesterday, someone sent me an E-mail suggesting we
put out a list-server product. I passed it to the Council. However,
that would require list-server software, and someone to set it up. To my
knowledge, none of us are qualified to do so. I agree, it has merits. As
for your idea... it's worth considering too. The biggest disadvantage,
I see, is that (and correct me if I'm wrong) we'd lose the ability to allow
people OFF the list to come here and benefit from previous postings. My
understanding is that only those who are subscribed would get the information.
I'm not thrilled about that, because I like the idea of us being here for
anyone who wants to find us -- but who may not want to have their mailbox
stuffed regularly. We may end up zipping the archives to save space --
and I could add a link to Winzip's download site for those who don't have
it (or PKzip). I'm not rejecting your idea out of hand, I think it's a
good one, but I'm not sure it's the best idea. Still, we'll take it under
advisement. Thank you for the suggestion.
Russell Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 14:01:02 (EDT)
Did you know that in West Virginia if you get divorced from your wife.....she is still your sister. (really big Grin!)
Welcome Back Russ!
Watch the National News guys...you may get to see me on it. I have sent most of the Wildland Fire crews I supervise to the fires in central Florida. I'm on alert to go also.
Bad JuJu down there. They just evacuated a whole County (Flagler) and cancelled the Daytona 500 as well. 125 miles of I-95 is closed also. So if You are coming this way...find an alternate route.
The ballistics conversation just got really good too.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, "We're Really Hot now!" Fla. USA - Friday, July 03, 1998
at 16:38:37 (EDT)
Are any of you fine gents planning on attending the National Matches
this year at Camp Perry?
Couldent you build a spotting scope with interchanging straight
and 45 eyepieces?
If any of you real good shots need a new mesurment for your shot
groups 1 angstrom=0.0000000001 meters
Enjoy your 4th And thats an order
c/2nd LT. Keith Kacmar AFJROTC <Kacmar@thevine.net>
Saugus, CA USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 20:30:58 (EDT)
I've decided I want to purchase a Leupold tactical scope and I'm wondering if I can get some advice on who has the best prices.
This is one of the best sites I've found. Keep up the good work.
Sandy
Sandy Cambron <shiftysand@aol.com>
Florence, KY USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 21:53:00 (EDT)
Gooch - I see you've gotten to the Ts in the dictionary! At least you aren't talking about Aardvarks anymore! And I said NO to the Slope stuff. Where is my motrin? Also agree with you on the "chasing the spotter" problem. Best to read mirage and estimate, shoot, then go right back to the spotting scope and see if the wind has changed. If it hasn't and you broke the shot clean, then you can let the spotter semi influence your next call. If it has changed, all bets are off! Same with the young buck, if you see the wind has changed between his estimate and shot, forget the spotter, its definately a lie!
Jinx - See that you are in Fayetteville, NC. Email me and we can discuss your question. The BC though will change. If your BC is for M118 and you are shooting 168 gr instead, then there will be a problem at the longer ranges for sure. On the 20 inch barrel, if you're shooting standard loads then I doubt if all your powder will burn. The increased friction on the polygon barrel won't make up enough for a complete powder burn, I don't believe. What say all of you gun gurus?
Steve - You're right, when all else disappears you only have what you feel! But I HATE that, because I know it will lie to me at the worse possible time!;-)
Scott and Russ - Becarful, Gooch is trying to stir things up! He's an evil man!
Out of here!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 21:55:08 (EDT)
To Joe Reiss: Got two Sigs, love em both, was just wondering about
the SOCOM, (by the way, I hear it's BIG)!!!!
:) :) :) :)
To Gooch: OK dude, I damn near got killed crawling to the other side of my 600 meter target to bury those damn chicken bones and THEY DIDN'T HELP!!!!!!! What bogus info did you push on me? I too old for this crap! :) :)
Super 6 says the beer is cold, gotta go, everybody take care and
stay safe, shoot straight!!!!!
Out here........
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 22:09:06 (EDT)
Hears my situation. I'm fitting my Remington 700 action with the new UARS and I would like to fit a polygonal rifled barrel to it; only if I can confirm what I've heard about it which is this:
Because of the nature of the rifling vs. conventional
rifling, barrel length can be shortened without any loss of velocity
and even with the possibility of velocity gains. Now, Gemtech inc. which
swears by this information fits their sniper systems with this barrel as
an option to the customer. They state that from an average 24 inch button
cut barrel the equivalent length to velocity in a polygonal rifled barrel
is 20 inches with in some instances slight gains
in velocity.
Now they use a Harris barrel so I called West Harris to get it from the horses mouth and he confirms this and also states that his systems are at least shooting sub 1/2 MOA at 100 before they are even sold and this all with no loss in velocity and when I asked both companies about effects with the BDC they say that it's right on.
Next I looked up and called Lothar Walther who also makes Polygonal
Rifled barrels and he confirms the velocity part as do the others but adds
that their is about a 10% loss in
accuracy when compared to other conventional high end barrels. I
compared this with the others and they both stated that they would guarantee
sub 1 MOA at 100 but realistically expect sub 1/2 MOA.
Anyway, this polygonal rifling sounds like good stuff to me in theory
but it seems so new that getting any further info is very limited that's
why I'm putting this out to all the
experience on the Sniper Country.
Let me know what you think.
Jinx
Fayetteville , USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 22:28:15 (EDT)
hope you enjoyed the metric lesson:)
straight shooting !!
Haraldur Gustafsson <hallig@austurland.is>
egilsst, Iceland - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 23:40:51 (EDT)
Nathan: Happy belated birthday. Hope the hangover wasn't to bad.
Rick: I printed your email to James, and will mail the hard copy
to New Mexico on Monday.
Bonnie D
Phoenix, Az USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 00:49:44 (EDT)
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Somewhere, Somehow USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 01:12:01 (EDT)
You know, I have no use for racists. I imagine if we all dig deep
enough in this cyber-world we could find a lot of things that are offensive
to the "average" thinking human.
But you know what? The amendment that we all hold near and dear
to our hearts as "shooters" wasn't written just to make sure that you can
own a rifle to shoot high power matches with. It was written, in part,
to protect the 1st amendment, the one you wish to deny to the jerk that
offended you. I'm not afraid to let people say what they want to say. Let
them burn the flag if they want to. Its their right to do that and it's
my right to stomp their guts out. What goes around comes around. You restrict
one persons rights because you don't agree with him, then we had all better
standby.
I'd rather talk about slope dope than this stuf. But....there it is. Can't we all just get along?
Happy Birthday USA.
Gooch
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 01:19:15 (EDT)
The loads use a compressed load of a special powder that results in a longer pressure curve in the bore of the weapon. In other words the chamber pressure is about the same as normal loads but the pressure stays at peak pressure for a longer duration. This results in a higher muzzle velocity without increasing the chamber pressure. Only problem was noted in gas operated weapons such as the M14. Due to the greater pressure further down the barrel they were breaking operating rods in M14s. They solved this problem by reducing the size of the gas port and everybody was fat dumb and happy.
That's the word I got. Anybody else?
Gooch.
Gooch (again) <same as last time>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 01:35:51 (EDT)
You wild-eyed libertarian, you. Just what the Founding Fathers had in mind. I urge you all to read the Declaration of Independence -- you can get to it from our "links" page. 222 years ago, our Founders issued that document. Without it, and them, we wouldn't be here today.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 02:19:22 (EDT)
HAPPY 4TH.
Jinx
Fayetteville, USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 02:51:05 (EDT)
Minorities. Something that's bothered me for a LONG time is that whenever you open most ANY of the major "gun rags" and turn to various articles on such-and-such events (IPSC, high-power, or what have you), you don't see many blacks. Or Hispanics. Lots of WHITE guys, that's for sure. Now, why IS that? I've always considered (thinking along the "soccer mom" line of reasoning), that here's a perfectly capable segment of society whose vote can make or break a lot of issues... gun rights, in our case. Wouldn't it make SENSE, then, to get blacks and Hispanics (and women, kids, the old geezer next door, the milkman...) out to a shooting range, put a gun in their hands, and show them (regardless of previous experience -- or not) how to shoot, and how to enjoy shooting? When I visit gunshops, I'll see blacks and Hispanics, occasionally (rarely, actually) at the gun counter, asking questions about such-and-such pistol. They usually want nine millimeters. I've been around enough years to get the idea that I think several minorities only know a small amount of "gun stuff" -- and I've never heard any blacks or Hispanics inquire about .40 Smith & Wessons, .357 Sigs, .357 TSWs, .32 H&R Magnums... and so on. I distinctly get the idea that the only "exposure" they're getting to guns and shooting is coming from movies and TV shows. Hey, guys? WE'RE SHOOTING OURSELVES IN THE FOOT! You know WHY they (minorities) don't know much about proper gun handling??? Because WE "white folks" haven't taken the time to get off our lazy asses and invite them out to the range! Soooo... is it any wonder that gangbangers, which I'm sure have a lot of white dudes, but I think I'm on target saying there's a chunk of minorities in gangs... think that you shoot pistols sideways, hold rifles from the hip, engage targets with "spray and pray" mentalities, and so on? Now, I'm not trying to start anything, and if you know me, I'm about as fair -- and blunt -- as they come... but I'm telling you, that unless we do something to include minorities, and start seeing Guns and American Handgunner and "Gun Rag of the Week" start showing some events that have a pretty fair number of blacks and Hispanics in attendance, AS PARTICIPANTS, I submit to you that we're going to have no one to blame but ourselves. Hey, look... I don't know how to do it, either. I think a "take a black guy to lunch" type of approach is pretty tacky, and racially offensive... but I know that unless we don't make a "conscious" effort to get some minorities into our "game" (tactical and precision rifle shooting, for most of us), then shame on us when minority-supported anti-gun bills pass through Congress and get signed into law. Maybe it's a "culture thing" (I'm white, so what in the heck do I know about what it's like to grow up as a black or Hispanic), but all I "do" know is that these folks, a lot of them anyway, are NOT getting a good "gun education" -- and what they do learn, if anything, is (often) that "guns are bad" and "guns are for killing" and "guns are for crime."
I'm with Gooch... I think, pathetic as the notion is to me, that you have every right to burn the American Flag. I think we shouldn't HAVE to pass a !@#%!@#% amendment to persuade people NOT to burn it. However, I also, personally, think I have every !#%@#&$%^* right to stomp your guts out and introduce your face to the pavement, repeatedly, in a vigorous and expeditious manner. So, thanks Paul, for bringing "the post" to our attention. It's a big site we have here, and I know we've missed things from "the early days" when we were taking possession of the site from Dave Reed. Thanks, Mr. Bain for beating me to cleaning the post. Now I'm sure we've all got friends who are in one minority group or another, but are we stopping by their houses and taking them to the range with us? Again, if we don't start showing some blacks and Hispanics (as well as other minorities -- and women and kids, too, not just the men of the family) how much hunky-dory fun it is to shoot teeny-tiny little groups into a target from a well-crafted, precision rifle, from several hundred yards away (for that matter, can WE do that???)... then we've got no one to blame but ourselves if people start saying that "gun rights" is a "whites only" issue.
And by the way... Happy Birthday, America!
Russell E. Taylor, Captain, Armor, United States Army Reserve <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 07:15:18 (EDT)
Paul J. Headlee:
Thank you. Stereotyping is always a bad idea. My wife is a diplomat
(DEF.: Someone who is sent overseas to lie for their country) and on ocasion
I acompany her to events that are peopled by the more sophisticaterd /
educated members of our and other countries governments. When I tell one
of these finely dressed folks that I am from West Virginia they almost
always look down to see if I have shoes on. Usuelly I do.
I got my TSN-1 from OK Weber, Inc. of Euegen Oregon. Best price I could find at the time.
Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Wild, Wet, Warm, Wonderful, West (By God) Virginia USA - Saturday,
July 04, 1998 at 07:50:06 (EDT)
!!HAPPY BIRTHDAY USA!!
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
The Indipent Thinking State of, West Virginia USA - Saturday, July
04, 1998 at 08:11:18 (EDT)
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Still can't spell, West Virginia USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 08:15:18
(EDT)
On the Ligth Magnum, we have used it and find that it works well. As Gooch stated though, don't introduce this round into ANY semi gun that you respect! We even placed the ammo in the sun, yuck, to see if higher temps would creat an overpressure situation. We had no sign of over pressure in the "loose" weapons, however if you pre-engrave your loads with a tight throat, becarful!
Al - I would stay away from the illuminated reticule! this causes a blinding effect under a lot of conditions. Other than that buy what you can afford, and is quality glass! If you are going for the tactical end get a variable with parallax adjustments. I personnally like Leupold but they are expensive! Fixed 10x is very limited but works well in our military environment.
HAPPY FOURTH all you wild eyed gun nuts!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 11:29:21 (EDT)
STAY AWAY from Springfield glass (IMHO)! I don't know who is making their glass for them -- it used to be Burris -- but it's not that good. B&L, Leupold, even Tasco, but please not Springfield. They make good rifles and pistols, but the other stuff you should get elsewhere.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 11:40:15 (EDT)
To Gooch: #1 I agree with what you said, they do have the right to say what they want and to burn the flag. I also agree that I have the right to kick their asses. I also see that you're ashamed to speak about the bones trick that you played on us. 600 meters is a LONG way for an old guy to crawl, you should be forced to drink warm, flat, old beer for a week and eat C rat eggs!!!!!!!!!
To Al: I agree with Mr Bain, Stay away from Springfield glass!!!!!
A friend of mine has one on his 700 PSS and it sucks.....My ART II is old,
(like me), but it still works and works VERY well, (like me)!!:) :) SUFFER
GOOCH, you evil man:)
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 13:02:36 (EDT)
TO AL- your selection needs to depend on, among other things, your intended use. If tactical, the 50mm places your scope way above the barrel line and your head high. The high powers, even sometimes 8x, can blow out your vision in bad mirage.
On the issue of minorities, you are quite correct, WE as shooters are possibly the smallest minority group in the country. Whenever anyones rights are abridged, all of our rights are affected. We must stand for the freedoms rthe country was founded for. There is an old story told me by a friend that was a youth in Nazi Germany. The Gestapo came around to take away certain books and publications from a village. The owner of the books went to his fellow villagers and said "help me". He went to the baker, who said I dont have time to read so i don't care if your books are taken. He went to the mechanic who said i work so many hours I have no time for such nonsene as books. It goes on and on. Well the books were taken. THEN the Getapo came for the baker because they claimed his oven made too much smoke. He went to the book seller for help, who said, I dont' eat cakes so why do I care. ETC, ETC. The bottom line is, we don't need to care about any ones particular sport or activity, nor do we even have to appreciate its value. BUT WE DO have to support their freedom to enjoy it. Lets share our sport with others. All the alternative shooting styles are helping in this regard. We do have blacks and hispanics engaged in Sporting Clays for example. Also IPSC and Cowboy Action are geting some minority participation. Does your wife shoot? Do your children? Invite a non-shooter to the range with you. There is less fear of things known than unknown. Sorry for the soap box,
SHOT OUT!
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 13:19:55 (EDT)
Gooch: Still waiting for the proper incantations:)
USA: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 13:37:28 (EDT)
Gunny Rayfield: Still waiting, you're getting to be like Gooch, you evil man.......
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 13:49:13 (EDT)
I have misplaced the Phone Number For Spartan, would it be possible for you to pass that along to me again?
It seems that the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5 x 10 Long range M3 is dificult to find. At least that is what they are telling me at the Gun shop I frequent here.
So if anybody on the roster knows where to obtain one with the mil dot Ret. rather quickly....I would be greatfull for the info. the best price I can come up with here is 749.00...( of course it won't come in for 4 weeks!) plus the Fed gets 52 bucks from me to use against me in its anti gun battle.
Sigh*
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL. USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 14:52:42 (EDT)
Premier Reticle, Ltd.
920 Breckinridge Lane
Winchester, VA 22601
(540)722-0601
They give a military and police discount also.
Okay guys. On the chicken bone thing. Here it is. First of all the bones must be sun bleached. NOT FRESH!! You can really get in trouble with fresh bones. (KFC is way out of the question, Popeyes maybe with a good lot #) Some guys at Ft Benning tried fresh KFC bones a few years ago and....well does hurricane Andrew ring a bell? Anyway, take the bones and bury them to your FFPs' (firing point) 6 O'clock about 100-150 meters. Move back to your point and face and kneel towards Quantico, recite The Riflemans Creed loudly with feeling. End with a rousing rendition of the Micky Mouse Club song and you're set.
All of this must be performed in a loin cloth, shower shoes and a light coat of oil. Then sling lead like a mutha!!! You will be invincible. Be forwarned though. The Iraqis tried this but got Mecca confused with Quantico and look what happened. Bad JuJu.
I've got to get serious here or I'm going to get a visit from my old buddies in Beltsville, MD. I think it was either those drugs my parents did in Berkley in the late '60s or I have too many years on the firing line. The sun!!! Sorry guys this is just too much fun.
See you guys at the D&L shoot in August.
Thanks Rick now another guy is calling me evil. YOU ARE A MEAN MAN.
Gooch out.
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 15:53:53 (EDT)
I have never used either the ART TEL (or ART I) or ART II, though I have examined a few. When I was researching scopes a few years ago for my Super Match M21, I talked to a number of duty slotted snipers. They informed me that the cams on the ART scopes had a tendency to loosed with usage, making for ever more imprecise shooting with the scopes. As a result, well before, I had heard of the M25, I decided to go with either the A.R.M.S. or B.P.T. mount and the M3 scope with mil-dot. Lo and behold, this is the frequent glass/mount combination for the M25.
The downside is cost. Leatherwood and DPMS are making the ART II scope with integral mount and interchangeable ballistic cams available again for a reasonable amount, about $800 retail, or about $550 dealer price. Even going with the A.R.M.S. mount, Leupold Q.R.W. rings and Vari-X III Tactical, you've spent more money than the ART II, though I believe long term you may have better wear. OTOH, the ART II is respectable and a venerable scope. It's also the historically correct scope for the M21.
Hope this helps. I meant no disrespect to ART users out there, just passing on what I heard.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 15:57:23 (EDT)
Mr Bain: Thanks for the info on the ART II. I haven't had any problems with mine yet, (other than the CLP incident). Is the scope and mount the only diff between the 21 & 25?
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 16:10:56 (EDT)
Thanks for the info/input....You do mean that they carry the scope itself, Correct?
WAIT.....KFC bones FRESH? Have you had yard bird from KFC recently? They have to qualify as SUN BLEACHED right in the box. I've had seagull shot off the fantail that tasted better than that crud.
Gee, I had never given thought to the ART II scope. Does it come
with a ballistic cam for .300WM?
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL. USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 16:29:35 (EDT)
Regimental scopes are/were an interesting idea I looked into after reading my McBride and Shores, etc. I picked up a cheap one of that style from Orion Telescope but the optical quality of the glass is truly abysmal so it mostly collects dust in my office at work... Which reminds me, I'm fortunate enough to have a nice long view out of my office window and have ranged most of the landmarks via a USGS map, and this is very helpful in learning range estimation. I recommend this to those who can do likewise. It works from your home too of course.
The HK SOCOM pistol: as noted, this beast is huge. It certainly is too large for most people in the role most handguns fill- a convenient defensive firearm, possibly a backup to your longarm. Call me backwards but I'll take one of my 1911s or my Glock 30 over that beast any day. Your mileage may vary.
Cory: SWFA in Texas has a great selection of optics, they list the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5 x 10 Long range M3 at $699.95, they ship same day when in stock. I have no affiliation with them.... the number is (972) 223-0500.
Ed: Your spelling often gets really bad if you mistakenly use Nagua bones instead of chicken bones. But at lest tha nagua bonez keep thu buzzwurms aways. Oopz.
Happy 4th!
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 16:46:48 (EDT)
Check my piece on the M21 and M25 in the Articles and Commentary section of this site.
Among Naugas, the First Amendment, and French vs. German women, I would choose women as the preferred non-sniping topic. But that's just me. . . ;-)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 18:44:35 (EDT)
Ranger9 - I haven't seen their latest cataloge but I'll bet they have your scope. Also Dick Thomas the owner of the place can help you out with any questions you may have. He wore me out on the phone one day talking about mils, minutes and the sort. Have some Motrin handy. He made my brain hurt.
Big Ed! Good God lad! Don't screw with the formula!! We are already stretching the limits of paranormal psychology and the laws of physics as we know them with the chicken bones to begin with. I got that procedure from a Gullah voodoo priestest in Frogmore, SC. (She was the daughter of a former recruit that had ran away from Parris Island. He survived in the low country for years on shrimp, boiled shrimp, steamed shrimp, shrimp etufe (?), broiled shrimp... Sorry got off the subject.) Anyway, I had to undergo 4 days of drunken cerimonies to get it out of her. You ever see the movie Altered States. Childs play to what I had to suffer through!! Let me move my family and dogs back to Oregon before you try your version. If I get us far enough back into the woods and at high enough of an elevation maybe we can survive the results of your messing around. Watch out guys the end is near!!!
Look, maybe Rick has an SF cerimony or something but don't fool with mother nature!!! Don't you SF types do something with gerbles?
Gooch out.
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 18:56:31 (EDT)
To Gooch: YOU ARE AN EVIL MAN!!!!! I thought Murines did things with gerbles when their Navy "buddies" wern't around!
To Dave: Nauga bones, hmmmmmmm......watch out Gooch!!
To Mr. Bane: Sorry to be a pain but as I said I'm old and my eyes aren't what they once were. I looked at your note on the M21/25 SWS and didn't see if the scopes and rings/mounts were the only diff between the two.....
To Rick: Fire mission, Goouch in the open, request HE and WP, fire for effect.......
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 20:33:14 (EDT)
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 20:50:35 (EDT)
Happy 4th!!!
You have my vote for a new topic!! I'm with Gooch slope Dope and
some asprin.
Sgt. Gimmellie
va USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 22:28:37 (EDT)
Gooch - I'm with ya all the way. You can burn the flag, but not with me standing by. I tried the 175 grain Federal Gold Match, they shoot better than the 168's - thankx.
p.s. - Gooch, the Arkansas sun is making you crazy.
Semper Fi
BRENT <brenting@juno.com>
Shreveport, La USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 23:33:39 (EDT)
What's the word on the Burris Black Diamond Tactical Scope? Never seen one and no one around here has any good info on it. Also never have seen a Burris product before and was wondering if their glass is any good. Mr.Baine's post kinda made me shakey on them.
Happy Birthday to the United States of America!!God Bless the men
who had the foresight to place their grand ideas on paper and the had the
gumption to stand and fight for them.
Stagger
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, In USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 01:37:14 (EDT)
X rings to all!
AL
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz.worldnet.att,net>
Myhomebase, Ohio USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 06:47:32 (EDT)
Have been busy and have not had time to wrtie. Last thursday we had
a rep from HK at our academy, he had with him a few nice toys for us to
play with, one being a newG36 weapons system. No, i aint a sniper rifle
but it was fun to play with. It comes in 5.56mm, has an optional 3.5x intrigal
scope/sight and a red dot sighting system, one can even get NOD's for it
that dont raise the stock/spot weld. it is select fire and is only sold
to law enforcement agencies.
it shoots well and is controlable even on spray and pray, good news
for the guy's that double as snipers and entry team operators, no, i dont
mean use it for a sniper rifle and then go bust in doors, i mean use it
when you have to work the entry team as it is much smaller than the 16
and much more controlable. i have a question, i need to replace some old
M-49's with new spotting scopes, does anyone have any information on dealers
for these items. My sgt. needs three distributors so we can check the bids,
yea, i know, BS in action, but that is reality. best to all this 4th of
july and thank you all that served, no matter what branch or when.
reaper6 out
john w <reaper6>
tx USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 09:33:36 (EDT)
I have a book that mentions a special stock liner made by Brookfield
Precesion used in the M-25 SWS. It's supposed to allow removal/replacement
of the action/bbl group without changin zero, and without breaking down
the bedding. Does anybody have experience w/this, and if it works, where
can I get one? I use my M-1A for High Power competetion, and am putting
a bunch of rounds through it, and don't want to have to re-bed every 1,000-1,500
rounds.(I know, many HP shooters are going to mouse guns, but I paid a
bunch of $ for my Supermatch and dammit, I want to keep using it! Besides
with Uncle Sam giving me a few thouand rounds of Fed Match, hey, why switch?)
Timothy J Sarchett <tjsarchett@webtv.net>
Clovis, NM USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 11:46:58 (EDT)
Haraldur"metric"Gustafsson <hallig@austurland.is>
Egilsst., Iceland - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 12:12:43 (EDT)
If you are going to replace the scopes with current issue ones, B&L and another contractor make the M144. See our "Tools" page. The M144 is similar to a commercial B&L scope; it just has stronger seals and anti-laser coatings on the glass.
Timothy: You have Scott Duff's book. Great reference manual. Check out William J. Ricca. He advertises in Shotgun News.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 12:15:02 (EDT)
The chicken bones cerimony was first used at the 1994 Eastern Division Matches at Stone Bay Ranges by the Parris Island Shooting Team. One of my students used it last school (seriously, guy was kind of loonie). He passed marksmanship but failed stalking.
Why do snipers end up with this off the wall sense of humor. It must come from stalking through hazmat sites or something.
Brent - Glad to see the 175's worked for you. We in the military are waiting like kids at Christmas time for the M118LR which gave birth to the 175 Gold Medal load.
Reaper6 - Check out the Bausch and Lomb 15x45 in-line scope. The Army uses it as the M144. I like it.
As far as angle shooting goes. We pretty much all know about the
need to find map distance versus straight line distance. This is more or
less the simplest way to counter the effects but I don't really think that
it truely explain the reason why. According to some of my ballistics bubbas
there is also a gravity factor. The explaination that I heard is that the
velocity of the projectile counteracts some of the effects of gravity resluting
in less bullet drop at a given range and that there is less surface area
exposed to gravity as the bullet is traveling at an angle relative to the
surface of the earth. Can any body elaborate on the physics of this IN
LAYMAN TERMS!! Or better yet does any body know of any articles on the
subject?
Come on Rick.
Sorry about the length SCC. Gooch out.
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 12:22:18 (EDT)
Hey guys that's a great idea! [censored], wouldn't want the sorry no-load puss nuts @#$^&** to miss with that one well placed round [censored].
[censored.]
Oh another thing on buring Old Glory! It's not a TRUE AMERICAN'S right to burn our flag. If these people do this, they are not AMERICANS in my book. They are sorry pieces of pathetic [expletive deleted] and should be hung on sight.
[Editor's note: The First Amendment protects you against the government's
attempts to muzzle your speech. It does not stop private actors, such as
Sniper Country, from doing so in fora such as the Roster. Candid,
open, rational discourse is always the order of the day. Anonymous, inflammatory
rhetoric is discouraged, however.]
SEMPER FIDELIS
Stay Alert Stay Alive
The BOSS MAN
Somewhere, Outthere USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 12:57:01 (EDT)
You have the idea on the "slope Dope" issue. Try drawing yourself a right triangle with its usual 45 degree side. The base is 7" and the 90 degree side vertical is 7". Imagine you and your rifle are at the top, looking down the 45 degree angle to the base. The base represents then plane of the earth. ( we will forget about earth curvature for the time being since it is minimal in effect). The forces of Gravity works at essentially right angles to the earth. Instead of inches, just extrapolate or assume the 7" sides are actaully 700yds. The ratios will be the same. Your lasered distance to the target then would be 980 yds.. Your base leg ( read the distance paralell to the earth) is 700 yds. Thus , the bullet travels 980 yds to intersect the target but the force of gravity only works on it for an effctive 700 yds. Thus you can see it does not make any difference if the shot is up or down the angle. The bullet is not acted upon by the full force of gravity for the 980 yds but only an angular moment. Either shot would then hit high if shot up or down with the 980 yd dope. That is about the best explanation I can give you. New topic- do you feel the Corps continues to instill the true feeling for the rifle that it did in the "Old Corps". When I went to boot camp we were issued our weapon and learned its serial number and slept with it till we knew as well as we knew ouselve. I wen in the Corps in 1957 and kept the same weapon ( my M-1 ) from boot camp on until the system changed to the M-14 . To this day, I can recite its serial number as easy as my own name. Has the Corps gone soft on riflemen?
James Craig
Msgt Ret
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 16:29:26 (EDT)
Why do americans prefer to use useless calibers like .40S&W or .45ACP. These rounds do not penetrate one layer of kevlar on an enemy wearing bodyarmour.
Here the right stuff for dealing with enemy bodyarmour, 9mm M39B:
http://www.bofors.se/product/9mmhigh.htm
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 16:35:05 (EDT)
Tim Sarchett and Big Ed - Stock liner for the M21 was built by Brookfield for the M21 to decrease bedding damage during disassembly of the weapon. This was, and is, a major problem with the M21. By bedding the liner into a McMillian stock, the weapon could be disassembled without undue damage to the bedding, and recoil was disappaited throughout the stock better lengthening the life of the weapon. For range shooting the M21 is an excellent and venerable weapon system. For the field it is too fragile and zero changes occur with debris entering the stock.
John W. and Reaper6 - The M144 is an ecellent scope, just be prepared to buy extra tripods because the ones that come with the scope are plastic and CHEAP aluminum that strips and breaks. We have replaced almost all of our tripods due to breakage and they are just now 1 year old!
Where IS my Motrin? Keep shooting guys.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 16:39:37 (EDT)
Maybe y'all have discussed this in the past, but how about setting
up the duty roster as a list server? Michigan Coalition for Responsible
Gun Owners (MCRGO) runs one with good results as do other interest groups
like The Unofficial HK USP Home Page, etc.
Lance M. Johnston <sgtlmj@dmci.net>
MI USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 17:10:38 (EDT)
Rounds Out
Brent <brenting@juno.com>
Shreveport, La USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 17:45:58 (EDT)
I will probably get a lot of hate mail on this but here goes.
There has been a lot of senior ranking officers in the Corps that
are bent on reducing the rifle marksmanship program down to what the Army
has got. Right now at Camp Lejuene there is a LtCol running the Stone Bay
ranges who is trying to get HQMC to approve one day rifle qualification.
Zero and shoot for qual in one day.
Same type of idiots that came up with the charlie course in the late 60's. They look at rifle marksmanship as a training requirement, not a warrior skill. These guys are so ate up with the new high speed wiz bang weapons like MRLS and Cruise missles and with "Managing" instead of "leading" that they forget that in places like Bosnia, Grenada, Panama and Somalia that it is the individual rifleman with his weapon that makes the difference most of the time. They are going to repeat the mistake of training for the last war again. High tech did it in the gulf so lets take that model as gospel. I have a friend who is in charge of marksmanship doctrine for the Corps and he told me last week that they are looking at a 5% across the board cut in ammunition for training. They are looking at FATS simulators and the such to fill in the gap.
The Corps still prides itself in every Marine being a rifleman and it is better off than the Army is but they are on the slippery slope so to speak.
You used to have a "marksmanship" guy in charge at Weapons Training Battalion in Quantico. Col Willis, then LtCol Cuddy and others before them. Now they just fill the slot with a Col who needs a command and WTBn is the marksmanship proponent in the Corps. The problem is that every Officer in the Corps is an expert on marksmanship. Just ask them. They can't spell BZO but they know the best.
It's more than a relfection on the Corps though. It's the whole country. We used to make heroes of guys like Morris Fischer, (Marine Olympic shooter back in the 20's) and Col MacMillian (another Olympian) but now its detrimental to an officers' career to be a "shooter". When was the last time you saw a General with a Competition in arms badge on his uniform? General Holcomb (WWII Comandant) a Distinguished Rifleman was the last one I know of.
Sorry again SSC. Gooch
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwod, AR USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 18:06:36 (EDT)
Rick: Where's my arty?????????
Raider 6 out
Big Ed <Draider6aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 19:34:19 (EDT)
Semper Fi
James Craig
Msgt Ret
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 20:43:29 (EDT)
Sorry this got long but that is a sore point for many in the services that must live with the nonsense that is now being purpatrated upon the young that will some day fight for this country. History repeats if only they would learn.
Keep up the good fight Gooch, Out.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 22:06:49 (EDT)
If that's you big D knock it off dude and have a beer and chill. Nobody likes a flag burner.
You got MY e-mail address.
Gooch
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood , AR USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 01:06:08 (EDT)
This is an endless debate, but:
Norway adopted the .45ACP in 1914 and the last ones were phased out ca. 1985. 9mm has better penetration on heavy winter clothing and bodyarmour.
My view is military. If a military sniper carries a handgun it must be able to penetrate bodyarmour. You don't know who your next enemy are. Look closly at the pictures of the soldiers in Kosovo. No need for the .45 there.
About overpenetration. I think you win more than you loose i a military
conflict with an AP-handgun.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 03:31:31 (EDT)
There. Let the battle begin. See Gooch...I can stir them up too...Mr.
Bain is probably sticking pins in his Scott doll even as I type this!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 07:17:10 (EDT)
When ask to explain it I take an 8 1/2 X 11 sheet of paper turn it on it's long side draw a diagonal line from one high corner to the oposit low corner. Next I draw an arrow pointing at the base and lapel it "Gravity". From this point it is easy to explain the diference between actuel distance and gravity influnced distence.
"The Slope Doper" just makes it easier!
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Basking in the summer in, Beautiful West Virginia USA - Monday, July
06, 1998 at 07:22:46 (EDT)
Kodiak: 9mm vs. .45…must we go here again? To reiterate several months worth of debate: Try not to get shot by either! In top quality ammo, the ability of one to out perform the other, in terms of stopping power, is marginal. The mind set of the target ultimately determines how effective these rounds will be. To illustrate the point, an acquaintance shot a charging perp nine times with a .45 cal using Federal Hydro-shok. Bad guy went down on round nine, collapsing against the police officer. So much for the vaunted power of our favorite caliber. To call the 9mm useless is simply uninformed. Any pistol is better than nothing, but none are REAL stoppers. Most pistol rounds stop a human by causing the drastic lowering the blood pressure till the person can not operate any longer. That hardly qualifies as "stopping power". Bad guy can grunt through the loss of blood and keep on fighting, till he passes out, if his mindset is strong enough, or the drugs good enough. The only real stoppers are high power rifle rounds. Blow a guys lung out his mouth, he goes down. Take his cranium off, he goes down, ad nauseum. At any rate, as far as the 9v45 debate goes, I like them both for various mode of carry. But I wouldn’t sweat one over the other.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 08:06:20 (EDT)
Russell: SAY WHAT in the open? This ain't troops son, it's a GOOCH!!!!! Where's that ad for the sniper rifle from your friend? Or did my old eyes miss it???????
Gooch: You're an EVIL man!!
Rick: Arty???????
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 08:26:42 (EDT)
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 09:45:47 (EDT)
we are getting a "Nintendo" in the Bundeswehr as well. They plan
to do all training on the video screen and only go and shoot with the draftees
once during their 10 Month term. This would be for only a week !!!
The plan is also to close all our 300 Meter ranges due to the much
better simulation training which will save so much money !!! But at what
cost if the s... ever hits the fan?
Now we get the new G-36´s and we dont get to shoot them.
Poor Germany
Torsten
Germany - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 09:56:02 (EDT)
run around a lit candle with a Ghillie on,
Man thats asking for it. How about posing with your SWS like the
staue of liberty on a golfcourse during a nice Thunderboomer !!
Did you ever do the dance of the flaming a..holes ??
Torsten
Ende
Oberfeldwebel Erning
Germany - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 10:24:12 (EDT)
To Scott:
I'm hardly uninformred about the 9mm/.45 debate.Being in law enforcement
for almost twenty years I have seen quite a few people who were shot with
various calibers including 9mms and .45s.
Most gunfights are at very close range so stopping your opponent
as quickly as possible is the most important thing.It does you no good
to give him a fatal wound from which he will die in a few minutes because
in that few minutes he is still trying to kill you.You were only partly
correct when you mentioned a drastic loss in blood pressure is what stops
fights.You forgot to mention damage to vital organs and more importantly
extreme shock to the nervous system.I've heard of several cases where someone
recieved a nonfatal centermass .45 shot but almost instantly lost conciousness
and/or went into shock,in either case the fight was over.
The armor piercing rounds that Torf likes have very little stopping
power although they obviously can inflict fatal wounds.Most 9mm hollow
points will expand to a smaller diamter than the .45 comes out of the muzzle.
Ever here of the FBI shootout with two bank robbers in Florida?The
two bad guys were hit a total of about 40 times,mostly with 9mms before
they were finally killed.In that time that they were being filled with
holes they managed to kill several agents and wound several more.As a side
note the autopsies showed no drugs or alcohol in their systems.After this
the FBI got rid of the 9mms and went to .45s and 10mm Mags.
There are many,many cases in the books that show the lack of stopping
power of the 9mm.
Sorry to be so long winded.
Kodiak
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 10:53:30 (EDT)
no more posts today dangit
R. Smith <ragin_aardvark@yahoo.com>
Twin Falls, Id. USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 13:55:50 (EDT)
Interesting article at the L.A. Times website.
There's an interesting thread on the Kennedy
Assassination Rifle, WITHOUT all the conspiracy crap, if anyone's interested
in learning about the rifle itself. (Yes, we all know it was junk, I'm
just posting the information.)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 14:01:28 (EDT)
TorF: In all the MOUT training I've done, we always had to improvise
because of all the variables. It's just not like being out in the woods.
If a we encounter enough guys wearing body armor, after a while we would
just begin to shoot them in other body parts. The stomach and groin have
a lot of blood vessels. Body armor doesn't cover much. Whatever works.
A .45 would be ideal in a MOUT environment because one round from it will
do the work of 2 or 3 rounds of 9mm. Down in the sewers and in other close
quarter engagements, a handgun is worth its weight in gold. Any gun will
kill when used properly and the 9mm is certainly no exception. The .45
is just more forgiving with respect to shooter error.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 14:28:09 (EDT)
Now the .45 vs 9mm. I swear guys, can anbody name a subject that has eaten up more space in gun rags over the last 20 years than this one? I was voicing my opinion about the superiority of the .45 ACP to a Sig Sauer rep back when the USMC was testing the 9mm's. I told him that the 9mm was a wimp and he looked at me and in his Germanic accent he replied, "Vell, I guess no Americaner soldiers ver killed by 9mm in Vorld Var vun und tuu." Eh.. Well any way I bought a P226 from him.
Why has everyone decided that .357 mag revolvers are a bad thing. Average cop gunfight is around 2 rounds right? Okay, auto loading pistols are better. Back to 9mm vs .45. Urey Patrick of the FBI academy wrote an article for one of the rags back in 90-91. It was after the Dade County abortion. At the end of the article he made the statement that a .4-anything (read forty-anything) was the wasy to go. I guess my opinion is use the biggest caliber you can shoot well. I'll take a center mass heart shot with a .22LR over a miss with a .600 nitro anyday.
Failure drills can be taught to the head or to the groin. Obviously the head shot will stop the fight quicker but the groin will stop a charging bull if you take out the pelvic girdle. Head shots are a pretty tough accomplishment when you are getting charged. Marine solution engage the target center mass until you get off a failure drill.
Give me a twelve gauge with slugs and buck shot. Select slug man!
Later guys.
Gooch
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 20:49:13 (EDT)
Here are the results of my search (one call to Ottawa, eh):
"Telescope, straight prism type, adjustible (with case) 60 mm obj, 20X" 6650-21-871-6071 ($216.00)
"Mount Telescope, microadjustable, metal" 6650-21-871-6070, or 6650-21-149-6621 ($51.88)
This is a Bushnell, not a Kowa, eh.
As for selection criteria, I agree that a straight line of sight is better. I traded off my 45 degree telescope because I couldn't seem to find the target.
Terry Warner
Terry Warner
Canada - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 21:40:11 (EDT)
Russell: Got out in 1971 so these new terms are new to me:-) We just called 'em by name when calling arty. Thanks for the post, looks interesting.
Gooch: Love ya man, mean it!!!!!!!!
Gunny Rayfield: Call me back, that guy's M-25 looks VERY good............
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 23:55:25 (EDT)
do you, or anyone else have any info about the effects of altitude
changes on bullet impact ?
I am at about 300 Feet here and will be going to about 8250 Feet
shortly.
I know that the bullet will have less drag and thus drop, but is
there a way to figure it out beforehand ??
Also, is wind "thinner" at higher altitudes and does the formula change ??
Hmmmpf ?
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 02:10:57 (EDT)
Kodiak
USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 02:54:25 (EDT)
Ralf
Ralf <Shooting-Supplies.RUDE@t-online.de>
RV, Germany - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 03:51:04 (EDT)
I've tested the Zeiss 20X60S binocs in the field. It was incredible.
Unfortunatly I can't justify (afford...) the price, $4000.- !!
It certenly brings spotting into another world.
A Zeiss salesrep told me you can identify a 1,5cm dia. black object
on a white background standing unsupported at 1000m.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 06:07:40 (EDT)
Next topic: Federal GM2 (175 grain) vs. Talon Whitefeather? Anyone have any testing data?
To the gent who asked why no SC review of Kowa: Sorry! This is my
mistake. I have been using one for two High Power seasons and simply have
not bothered to write a review. Short and sweet: On Clarity and resolution,
it is superior to most of the equally priced competion. The big "L" can
not even compete.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 07:41:37 (EDT)
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 09:30:43 (EDT)
In Scandinavia the 6.5X55 constantly outperforms the .308win in longrange
targetshooting. Now you americans have your own factory 6.5mm targetround.
I've read somewere that Mike Rock makes 6.5mm 5R-rifled barrels. That means
that your favourite gunsmith can make a shortaction M25 in .260Rem and
top it with a Leupold 10X M3 with the .300WM/220gr/2650fps ballistic cam.
Barrellife with molycoated bullets should be around 6-8000 rounds.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 09:45:01 (EDT)
In the end one FBI agent shot and killed both Platt and Maxwell(?) once with a 38 Special. The bullet was the 158 grain LHPSWC+p. Not a fierce manstopper but a solid performer in any case. BTW FBI is back to 9x19 guns and has dropped all 10 mm Autos, except MP510mm. Actually they plan to switch to 40S&W, or so I have read in the papers.
These robbers were ex- 82nd Airborne soldiers that were dishonorably discharged. They probably were in better shape than most of us and had got through training the never-give-an-inch attitude even when they knew that they will be killed or caught. This determination and adrenalin together with a good conditon can make you imprevious to most handguns even though you´re not using drugs.
In a police situation you will always have problems. Either the round penetrates too much or too little. Actually one should have a thinking bullet that could calculate how much expansion and penetration are needed.
My 2 cents.
Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 10:20:44 (EDT)
Gooch: You're right, Devil Dog, about the Corps' marksmanship training problems. If only you knew how right. E-mail me sometime and we'll talk. (I'm trying to save bandwidth here.)
45 v 9 debate, my two cents: Either is capable of killing a man quite
effectively. As Scott said, w/good ammo, there's a marginal difference.
Still, both are mere pistol rounds. Almost by definition, they are underpowered
(BOTH!!). If you want to stop a man immediately with a pistol, you MUST,
I say again MUST create massive trauma to the brain, OR achieve a central
nervous system hit that paralyzes him. Anything else may eventually kill
him, but if he's in the right frame of mind he can remain hostile until
he becomes unconscious. Heart, liver, kidneys, arterial hits to the extremities
may eventually kill him, but even with the LARGEST handguns, hits in these
areas are no guarantee of an immediate cessastion of hostilities. Moral
of the story? Arm yourself with a handgun you feel comfortable with, practice
failure drills, and if you are really expecting trouble carry a rifle,
shotgun, or something even bigger!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 13:47:52 (EDT)
To Hexa:
I read an article about that 1986 FBI shootout a few years back.Those
robbers were hit MUCH more than three times,I'll try to get the article
again so I can find out the exact number of bullet wounds.It was really
an amazing story complete with pictures.Where did you here that the FBI
is going back to 9mms?I just read a story about the new .45s that the FBI
is ordering.
To Matt:
I agree with you on the need for immediately stopping your opponent.This
is where the 9mm has proven itself to be horribly inferior.Because in most
gunfights your opponent is so close every second that he can shoot back
you can also be killed.This is why you need all the advantages
you can get starting with a caliber that will stop him as soon as
possible,the .45 and .357 are the best.
A comfortable gun is nice but it's much more important to have one
that is capable of stopping the fight quickly.Carrying a proven manstopper
gives me a tremendous amount of comfort.
Kodiak
USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 16:54:49 (EDT)
Please e-mail me re: your post about M-49 spotting scopes. Thanks.
tmelick@monbar.com
T. Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 17:50:54 (EDT)
I'd be interested in that article on the FBI shootout, if you find it. I read the write-ups Ayoob did in American Handgunner, but I don't recall any photos. I'd be interested in any other stories about the Miami shootout as well.
[I heard] the FBI awarded the contract for 5000 1911-style pistols
and 30,000 magazines to Springfield Armory. These pistols were supposed
to be for the field office SWAT, and for HRT. Colt protested the tests,
and the FBI is now re-evaluating the contract, which is on hold.
T. Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 18:47:46 (EDT)
7500'asl
300yds/.3moa
600yds/1.6moa
900yds/4-8moa
9500
300/.4moa
600/2.0moa
900/5.9moa
12,000
300/.6moa
600/3.0moa
900/8.5moa
Got the autopsy report on M.L. Platt form the Dade County Shooting. He was hit 12 times. Once through the scalp, one through the (r) arm into lungs, one through (r) arm into soft tissue, once through (r) forearm, 2 through (r) foot, 3 through (L) foot, one (L) upper chest bruised spinal cord at C-5, 1 in post. (r) shoulder, 1 post. (r) thigh.
That shoot-out was a bad deal for the Feds. Said a lot about superior motivation and refusal to give up. Feds lacked agressivness from what I saw in the reinactment. One of the perps assaulted through them instead of the other way around. Former Marine finished the dirtbags off!
All is not lost with the USMC marksmanship guys. There are good people fighting the battle at Quantico and elseware.
Gooch.
Gooch
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 20:25:36 (EDT)
To Torsten: "Thin wind?" Have you been eating that liquor-filled pudding stuff again, like you had at the restaurant we went to??? Yes, as you note, altitude will affect trajectory. Download the PCB software from our site and play with the numbers to see the results. Wind, however, is wind (unless a certified meteorologist can explain otherwise). You either have a LOT of wind or a LITTLE wind, but "thin wind?" Interesting notion, though.
On Big Ed's comment about the 28 Feb 97 North Hollywood shootout: Would someone PUH-LEASE tell me why, oh why, it took "forever" to bring those guys down??? I mean, silly me, but if body shots aren't getting the job done (I'm from the standard "center-of-mass" school like Gooch), then intelligence dictates some headshots are in order. I'm not slamming law enforcement (at least I don't think I am), but "why" didn't someone figure out, early on, to concentrate some firepower onto the craniums of those two guys? What was the failure here? I've watched the tapes over and over and over, and... GOOD LORD... there were gobs of opportunities for headshots! Boy, THIS ought to get some commentary going! (And Gooch? I don't think you're evil.)
To Hexa: Good comment on mindset. And anyone who's shot a deer in the heart (a "killing" shot, right?) knows that they can run for yards and yards before dropping. Men are the same way, and adrenalin is not to be underestimated either.
To all: I picked up the August issue of Soldier
of Fortune magazine today (well, four copies, actually). On the article
about the Hathcock charity shoot, I was an armor crewman, not an armorer;
I live in Silvis and WORK in Rock Island (at the Defense MegaCenter on
Rock Island Arsenal); and they referred to our own Scott Powers, on one
occasion, as "Powell" -- but other than that, it was a good piece. I also
bought Stephen Hunter's "Time to Hunt" and will get to it "someday."
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 20:52:32 (EDT)
Vests: Actually, the PASGT vest will stop most all .45ACP and some 9x19 but not all. (It falls between a II and a IIIa on the NIJ standards as I recall.) Some of this depends on angle of impact, etc. but the snipers will just use their rifles to shoot through these anyhow, and if for some reason they have to use a pistol just be ready with your friend Mr. Failure Drill. (And that's a proper failure drill, to the head, not the pelvic area!) Now of course, the "Ranger Armor" and other types that are seeing field use now are another story...
FBI shootout: Well, for those of you so inclined I know that the Intl'l. Wound Ballistics Assn. recently had this offering for its subscribers: "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight" by W. French Anderson, M.D. I have a copy and it's got some good info and many really nasty pics (mostly of Platt) from the coroner's office. Yech! The book provided some additional insight to the shootout for me, including photos of the crime scene and such. Not for the squeamish!
Mike Lau's new book: "The Military and Police Sniper", arrived today. I've only scanned through it (pausing to read a few pages here and there) but it really looks like a winner! I'd say it's better than I had anticipated, maybe the best thing since "The Ultimate Sniper", really a must-have filled with great information.
Another book: Alaska Enfield Headquarters (www.alaska.net/~asmle/index.html) has reprints of the Canadian Army "Manual of Training, Infantry Training, Infantry Platoon Weapons: Sniping" (1951) available. It's rather interesting, especially if you're into the #4 Mk1(T) and related kit. Also quite interesting as it also presents all the information in a format designed for instructors to use. This is another one that belongs on the shelf of any "complete library".
Lastly: Got the new SOF, and Gooch's mannequin head looks perfect! Also there's about a 5 page review of Custom Concealment's ghillie suits in the new Small Arms Review, including the comment that the Sate Dept. has classified them as "defense articles" requiring the appropriate permits for export...
Time to get back to Lau's book!
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 22:55:21 (EDT)
TorF- the 260 Rem is not the 6.5x55 Swede. It is a shortened case version. Why someone wants to mess with a good cartridge is beyond me. It was supposedly done to make a semi-auto capable round.
Out
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 23:21:00 (EDT)
Have you guys noticed that these sniper matches are getting a lot more publicity. Hmmmm.
Anybody know of any shooting schools needing a hand? I know an instructor looking for work. His name is Gooch. If I can't find something I might have to get a real job!!!!! Tried it once. Sold Auto parts after I got out of the Corps. About dragged a guy across the counter one day when he threatend my co worker if his alternator didn't fit. Nose picking geeks!
Anybody going to make it to Canada? I'll be leaving for a training session in Vermont the 13th of July be back on the 4th of August. How will I get my SC fix!!!!!!
"Talk" to you guys later. Wait...
It appears that you guys are starting to think of me as a air headed, "silly" kind of guy. Mannnn, Maybe I should display a more professional demeanor. You lnow like an SF guy or something. You see guys I don't have any sniper friends around here. Sure a few cops, a migrant farm worker or two, you know the top of the gene pool. So you guys are all I have. Just turned 40, retiring from the military....man. Is there life after the military? At least I've got my health. My knees do hurt though.
It just occured to me that this posting has no useful purpose except to clarify the impropper ID of G-man. Sorry. I guess I'll go to bed..by myself.. and my dogs. Gooch out. "snif"
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 23:57:56 (EDT)
To Dave:
Dave,can you fill us in on the details of the wounds on the bank
robbers in that shootout?It's been a few years since I read the detailed
analysis of that fight and I can't remember the whole thing.Gooch gave
us some good info about Platt
(thanks Gooch) but we need to know about the other one now.
Kodiak
USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 00:45:39 (EDT)
Kodiak: Sorry, but listing all the wounds with details would probably be a bit much! I think the subject is almost "off topic" for the page as it is, but typing it all out would eat up a ton o' space, and I type slooooowly so I'd be up all night! :) Ayoob's two articles list them all though, and both articles are also in "Ayoob Files: The Book" if you can't locate the magazines. Or email me offline & I'll see what I can do... We now return you to the more standard sniper fare...
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 01:41:53 (EDT)
Keep shooting till they are down and stay down.
"thin Wind" Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
wet Germany - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 03:06:28 (EDT)
The .260 fits in a short action Rem700 wich is preferred by most shooters in a M25-rig. The 6.5X55 needs the long action. Case capasity and performace are almost identical.
A 6.5mm, 140gr VLD bullet can easily be loaded to match the trajectory of the 220 Sierra MK in a .300Winmag, 2600-2700fps. The 6.5/130gr VLD matches Sierra .30/190gr MK in the WM, 2900fps. A 140gr 6.5mm VLD molycoated bullet at 2650fps is probably the best choice because you get a barrellife of 6-8000rounds. If you increase the speed to 2900fps you're down to 4000 rounds. I have no experience with barrellife in a .300Winmag., 2-3000rounds?
My point is that a sniper can have the ballistics, trajectory and winddrift, of a .300Winmag in a standard 6.5mm round. At a given range, I don't have the ball.tables in front of me, the 6.5mm rounds outraces and are more more powerful than the .308Win/168gr/175gr loads.
Another bonus with the 6.5mm is that it is easier to shoot well than the .308Win and the .300Winmag. Less recoil means improved shooting. That's why the 6mm BR loaded with 105gr VLD's are cleaning up the 300m international matches.
Malcolm Cooper, the founder of Accuracy International, used the 7-08
in the 300m UIT events. I saw him once on training the day before a big
match shooting only 10X's. Then declearing he couldn't wear out his matchbarrel
and replaced it on the spot with a "training-barrel". Then he continiued
shooting 10X's. He won the next day.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 04:40:48 (EDT)
I heard that those 45´s go to the FBI´s new and bigger HRT team. BTW which RESCUE team needs 5000 pistols ? Are they building their own army ?
In any case 9x19 SIGs and Glocks are included in the list of approved guns for the FBI agents although 45 ACP, 40 S&W and probably SIG 357 are/will be approved. For small statured female officers a Colt 1911 can be a little too much of a good thing for carrying it undercover.
In any case nothing beats a rifle in stopping power. Except a bigger rifle, that is :-) Someone already stated that ALL handguns are not very powerful and that is a fact. People carry pistols/revolvers only because they are convinient to carry, not because they are THE weapon to stop all and every confrontation in a millisecond. For the police officer the most powerful weapon usually is the radio. After his mind, of course :-)
Some military snipers may also be able to call artillery on the spot and that can help sometimes too.
Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 06:44:00 (EDT)
I'll put my soap box away now.
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Raining AGAIN in, Wild WET West Virginia USA - Wednesday, July 08,
1998 at 07:08:46 (EDT)
I'm doing mistakes in full auto...
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 07:26:50 (EDT)
To Russell: I agree, from the films I've seen there were more than enough chances for head shots that would have ended that mess right away.
To Gooch: There is life after the military, but wait, you were a Murine.....(Knees hurt, Navy boys around, gerbels, what's next?????????:-)
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 08:38:27 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 12:53:29 (EDT)
The developer of this system came to Camp Pendleton to demo the units and showed how it was effective in suppressing both the sound and recoil signature and felt recoil on the .50ca sniper rifle. He also set up a blind test with the M-14 where he took Marine Boots with no prior firearms skills or training and broke them inot two groups. One group went through firearms qualification training with the M-14 equipped with the sound and recoil system and the other with standard M-14's. Man for man, the suppressed system shooters fired dramaticaslly better scores.
ON THE Issue of Law Enforcement Officers in Miami or otherwise, being
criticized for not taking head shots to put down the crook. Consider that
competitive shooters at matchs, such as the Steel Challenge can consistently
make multiple steel plate ( read head shots) in very short time; buuut;
no one is shooting back. I have been shot at and I have seen a lot of people
shot at, Many who wore Expert badges on their chest. When the adrenaline
flows and the rounds are coming in, it is a miracle that they even shoot
back let alone shoot accurately. I have seen shoot outs at less than 10
yards where 3 Officers emptied their firearms at a crook, who also emptied
his at them. Result, no officers hit and the crook got one in his leg.
I agree it shouldn't be that way if they are trained but these guys all
shot well on a range. It is hard to criticize until you are ducking your
head. Adrenaline and anxiety do funny things.
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 12:55:14 (EDT)
PS: It is great to see a Sniper page with competent people, and comments. Keep up the great work!!!
LoFlyin@aol.com "jeff"
Jeff Cooper <LoFlyin@aol.com>
Memphis, Tn USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 13:33:21 (EDT)
Jon
Jon Manley <jon.manley@arthurandersen.com>
Nashua, NH USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 13:34:01 (EDT)
The question: What's the deal with the more vertical grip on the tactical rifles? What is it's advantage? I assume it has some utility for military type shooting, but I also see some write-ups and articles on varmint rifles with the McMillan A2 stock.
I am a newbie at this long range shooting. I have a Rem 700 VSSF in .223 that has been a lot of fun. I now want to build something similar in .308 that will be used for our local club's informal 400 and 600 yard shoots, and to do load development punching holes in targets at 100 yds. (Mostly I want to build it because I like building things, and such a rifle would be "neat.") I will probably shoot it mostly from a front rest or a bipod (I have the Harris BS model). Usually from a bench, but sometimes from a prone position with the bipod.
Do I want to put a "Varminter" or "tactical" stock on this rifle? I've stared at the H-S Precision and McMillan catalogs for hours, and the answer isn't jumping out at me. I also see the new UARS stock that is due out from Gunsite later this year that looks interesting (I like hi-tech.) What to do?
Sorry for the long post, but can someone out there educate me a little on the various stock configurations? All comments are welcome.
Thanks,
Bruce
Bruce C. <bcoons@seacove.net>
Copperas Cove, TX USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 15:22:59 (EDT)
On appropriate handgun calibers. A discussion that warms my heart! My following revelations are towards selecting the right caliber to match up with your worst case scenerio.
As a one time private detective I used a 9mm because it was very concealable and I could carry lots of ammo. My goal was not to kill someone, but to scare them off or wound them. When I quit that job and just wanted a handgun to hunt with (black bear) I switched to a 44mag. I won't name the manufacture, but the western grip would allow the gun to just rock back in my hand (instead of moving my arm) and I could get back on target with another lethal round. Last year I decided to go after some Russian wild boar. Everything I read and saw described a very tough opponent that has no qualms about chewing off your manhood with 4" razor sharp tusks if it can get within range. I again selected 44mag for large diameter heavy grain stopping power. I found I was going to have to penetrate very heavy bone and was dealing with an animal with extreme vitality. I bought a T/C 44mag 14" barrel with open sights. I needed a weapon I could carry slung across my chest through heavy thickets on the mountain sides of Tenn.
I painted the front post white and the rear sights red for quick
target acquisition. I strapped a ammo holder on my right arm that was meant
for putting on rifle stocks...for quick reloading. I wear a heavily padded
fingerless workout glove when I shoot it to cut down flinching problems.
My hunting partner and I each ran over a 1000 rounds through our T/Cs in
rain/shine/low light/hot/cold conditions from multiple positions at ranges
from 10 to 100yds. I had 3 loads ready for different conditions to pull
off my arm band:
- 240 gr hornady XTP w/ 25 gr of IMR4227 and hot primer
- 240 gr hornady Sil w/ 25gr of IMR 4227 and hot primer
- 300 gr hornady XTP w/20 gr of IMR4227 and hot primer
When it came time....I loaded in one of the 300grainers.
A big boar charged out at me from 30 feet away from the thickets.
I don't remember aiming or the recoil. The boar dropped with one shot 1/2
inch from it's left eye. The bullet penetrated the brain case...crashed
down through the heavy shoulder blade...burst the heart and came out the
rear of the animal. The guides had never seen a pistol take down an animal
like that. I saw another hunter take 3 body shots (2 through the heart)
with a hot loaded 45/70 before he brought down a boar.
I think if you select ammo for your worst opponent condition, practice till it becomes instictive with hitting the target, reacquisition and reloading and lastly take advantage of everything to help handle the recoil....you can take down just about anything. Get there the quickest with the biggest punch.
When the time came, the ammo selection and practice paid off. If
you wanted to penetrate that hot body armor, I would try a 44 mag, 240gr
barnes bullet and 20-25 grains of IMR4227 or Win 296...if it didn't penetrate
it would sure get someones attention living on the other side of that vest.
Of course, I think Russ was on the right track withjust shoot'm
in the head with the .357. (nice accurate round with little kick that has
respectable range)
Jon
Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 16:33:56 (EDT)
Dave: Where can I get a copy of the Intl. Wound Ballistics Assn. "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight" by W. French Anderson, M.D.? Is this a book, or a magazine article? Also, let us know how Mike Lau's book turns out. I saw it at the last gun show 2 weeks ago, I should have bought a copy then.
Gooch: Is the Platt autopsy report from Dade County available to the public?
Scott Freeman from MO: The black brother-in-law that you mention,
is he in Kansas City? I learned Service Rifle shooting from a black, retired
mustang Marine up there. He was working for Brinks security at the time.
If so, small world, huh?
T. Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 17:18:53 (EDT)
I once met this woman who "didn't work for any secret U.S. government agency". She never went anywhere (in the USA or "overseas") without her full size 1911 and an extra magazine or three. She was 5 feet 3 inches and weighed about 110 lbs. Don't tell me you can't conceal "Ol Slab Sides" on a small woman's body, I KNOW BETTER! She could also surgically alter the sexual drive of a misquito at twenty paces with the thing.
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
The Sun Finely Came Out in, Magnificent West Virginia USA - Wednesday,
July 08, 1998 at 17:48:32 (EDT)
My Savage "custom" .308 rifle has the often-maligned long action,
and
as slammed as Savages get, their longer actions allow you to seat
bullets farther out. I'm doing a little "upgrading" at the moment,
to
this rifle, and when it's done... well, certain people are going
to
get some real surprises.
To Dave: Thanks for the recommendation on Lau's book. I'll get a
copy ASAP. Also, I don't suppose I could get you to send me the
information on the Miami shootout, could I? Write to me offline
and
let me know.
To Gooch on sniper matches and publicity: That's why we're here!
This is GOOD news, and I hope eventually the public will realize
that
"sniper" are not just "some guy" who feels like taking pot-shots
from
a tower. Life after the military? Boy, I hope so! Bad knees?
That's why I signed up as a tank crewman ---- never had the knees
for
grunt life. I'll turn 41 next month, four more years to make the
hallowed 20 years, then I'm his-to-ry. Hey, man, it sounds like
we
need to get drunk together and do some talking.
To my good friend, "Thin Wind" Torsten: Hey, listen, if the
"wind-o-meter" reads such-and-such at sea level, and reads the same
at
1,000 feet above sea level… well, I just have a hard time
comprehending "thin wind." Lay off the liquor pudding, my friend.
:-)
To Deputy Dave: Oh, okay! I don't want to start a Guns &
Whammo type of discussion, so of course certain concerns
dictate
using a pistol. Bottomline, however, is to be proficient with your
firearm - and have enough ammunition.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 19:18:49 (EDT)
Sgt. G
DEATH FROM AFAR!!!!!!
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
CHESAPEAKE, VA USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 19:34:32 (EDT)
SHORT ROUND!!!!!!
Sgt g.
va USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 19:41:11 (EDT)
To Jeff Cooper (?!!!): Kenny Jarrett, 383 Brown Road, Jackson SC
29831, (803) 471-3616,
JKJ987654@AOL.com; H-S Precision is at (605) 341-3006 -- they're
in Rapid City, South Dakota.
(And thanks for the "thin wind" commentary -- pretty much how I saw it, too.)
To Bruce: The triggers on most rifles (precision rifles, anyway) pull "back" -- and having a stock with a vertical grip makes it a bit easier to apply a smooth, steady rearward pressure on the trigger. I just don't like most sporter stocks, and I'm especially not overly fond of my Enfield #4 Mk 1's setup -- but it's a hunting rifle and, regardless of the grip, it shoots just fine. In the end, it just comes down to what feels right to you.
To Jon Manley: I think you were confusing a couple of things; I'm a big fan of the .357 Magnum for "up close and personal" work, but the head shots... well, I was talking about the North Hollywood bank robbery. In a quick, close confrontation, I don't think I'd take the time to go for a headshot, I'd go for center-of-mass -- UNLESS, of course, the guy wasn't going down. Then, I'd start concentrating fire elsewhere, likely starting with the guy's head. However, it wouldn't be my initial, opening choice upon first engagement.
To Kodiak: Graphic? Which part? Oh, and I really enjoyed your post, especially about the guy losing eight feet of his intestines... but, um, which part of your post was "so graphic?"
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 20:37:30 (EDT)
On a side note: I see that "Mr." Clinton is, by executive order,
going to require FFL holders (to include yours truly) to post a sign "on
the premises." As quoted by CNN, "Using his executive authority, Clinton
also was requiring that all federally licensed gun dealers post a "Youth
Handgun Safety Act Notice" on their premises... The notices must state
that "misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile violence
and fatalities," and that safely storing and securing guns away from children
will help stop accidents and save lives." Basically, this means, "duh,"
that where before my house looked like every other house, NOW I'm going
to be telling everybody in my AO that "hey... I'VE GOT GUNS IN MY HOUSE!!!"
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 21:08:42 (EDT)
Perhaps we can begin summing this up?
Pick a weapon in a caliber of 9mm or .45 or whatever (forty something). Get training on it from a good instructor. Practice, practice, practice. Avoid confrontation. Keep a combat mindset (ala Jeff Cooper). And when the opportunity... (oops) the "situation" presents itself move to cover, shoot the mutha center mass till he goes down, then walk over to him and send him to allah!!
Last word. Double taps were popularized by who and for what? The SAS for the Browning Hi-Power! A 9mm pistol. Why? The 9mm needs to try harder. Nuff said.
I think we all need sensitivity lessons.
Sgt G. Where were your covers in that flick? And what kind of rifle was that. Did I spy a fluted barrel? What's going on with the DM program?
Death from a bar!!
Gooch
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 22:42:22 (EDT)
I have been burning for a couple of days on the "Boss Mans" post
of 5 July. Unfortunately I cannot stay quiet and had to make this post.
A True American DOES have the right to burn the flag ( absent a law being
passed that says otherwise); but a True American would not want to. I for
one can tell you that after a few weeks "over the fence", coming back to
a compound that is flying our flag is sure comforting. Put a lump in your
throat, or am I showing my senility. I still get all puffy when I hear
the Marine Corps Hymn.
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 23:02:54 (EDT)
[Sniping content:] What is the consensus on the medulla shot? Does this work or not? Some guy in T.S. said it doesn't. SGT G? GOOCH? Rick? Joe R.? Jim Craig? James J.? Rod R.?
DEATH FROM THE BAR!
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Somewhere, In Court USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 23:19:34 (EDT)
Bad Puuun! "Death from the BAR" ooooh!
Anyway, here goes with the graphics again ( I mean the part about Death from the Bar). I am not, not (this is not a double posting, I am emphasizing) a Forensic Pathologist so i cnat' sday the people I saw shot were hit directly in the medula. BUT, they were hit in the head in a band of about 2" wide about the area between the ear lobes. I have seen shots like that create a lot of "chicken dancing" on the part of the hittee,( and the hittor by way of celebration). I am not so sure it works consistently but this is only opinion.
Shot , Out.
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 23:57:12 (EDT)
Gimmellie - You say your a CQB instructor. Do you belong to any particular "organizations".
Gooch - Your a Double Devil Dawg.
Brent <brenting@juno.com>
Shreveport, La USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 00:19:16 (EDT)
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 02:40:54 (EDT)
Fire in the hole !
Ende
Torsten
very wet Germany - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 06:46:24 (EDT)
Russ: You asked why these guys didn't go for headshots. At a guess, they were scared sh*tless, as anyone would be, and were on the defensive. Also, unlike an IPSC or IDPA match, the bad guys were not standing still, in the open waiting to be shot. Platt was dodging, ducking and using cover. And constantly shooting. A head is not an easy thing to hit when moving. Especially when the shooter is already wounded.
Bruce C: You probably want a tactical type stock over a varmint model. You can use the wider fore arm to good advantage as it helps to stabilize the rifle when in a bag or across a support object. A slightly vertical grip will allow better trigger control in prone, as it helps you avoid dragging the side of your finger against the stock (known as dragging wood). While the HS stock does not have a "target" type vertical grip, the wider palm swells achieve the same thing - getting your trigger finger away from the stock.
I totally agree with Sgt. G. The is no such thing as stopping power. This is a term invented by the hunting media for mass consumption and seems to go against common sense. But it has been around for so long that it has become accepted as gospel. Pistol rounds especially do not "stop" a person by over powering them. It is like hitting a 50 pound sack of flower with a light ball peen hammer. Nothing much happens. Trauma to the organs, hydrolic blood loss, and mental shock are the effective agents in play. Not overwelming "shock".
Sorry this is so long folks. I'll close with a statistic that is not based on caliber, or weapon of choise:
"statistics show that in shooting incidents in the US, that if officers were able to connect with their first round fired, they survived 85% of the time. On the other hand, if they missed, they only survived 50% of the time."
This, to me, says it all. PRACTICE!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 08:15:39 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 09:10:54 (EDT)
(Where's my Prozac???)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 09:48:42 (EDT)
thanks for the addresses everyone
no I'm not the legendary Jeff Cooper of guns magazine, but I do sometimes write for Mid-South Outdoors on the subject of guns.
Hope I'm Lima Charley on the thin wind now. Good hunting.
Jeff Cooper <LoFlyin@aol.com>
elvis, tn USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 10:36:33 (EDT)
Gooch as for me i am in Security Forces right now working as a CQB instructor at the training Co. in chesapeake. I was with the Fast Platoons with security forces before i became an instructor. But i will soon be going back were i belong back in the bush in a scout sniper platoon.
And finally on the Mendula. This is the only one shot stop, were
all body functions will stop immediately. The Mendula is at the tip of
the brain stem and spinal cord. If you have ever seen it, it is a blackish
grey oval shape. About the size of a golf ball. This kind of leads us back
to wound ballistics. But to make it quick if you want a one shot stop you
need to destroy the "Medula" or central nervous system. Plan and simply.
All others will either incapacitate, or immmediatly incapacitate if you
destroy the heart, brain, vital organs or artaries.
Sgt. Gimmellie
chesapeake, va USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 12:30:14 (EDT)
Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 14:08:04 (EDT)
Jeff: on 300 win mag loads. The max in the hornady books is 75.1 grains of RL22. I'm using 75 grains. You can go higher if you are moly treating the bullets, but I have found that if you push the limit too much (the barnes bullet can take the punishment I think) you have recoil approaching an elephant round. I shot a .458 2 weeks ago and my rifle was just shy of the same recoil. The case is identical to the .458...just necked down to handle the .308 cal. The RL22 is burning all the way out my 24" barrel...so it's pushing all the way. I bought a velcro on kick killer recoil pad that I put over the rifle recoil pad and I wear a Past recoil pad on my shoulder. This eliminated the flinching I first had and I'm a big guy. If you max your rounds you will have to do something or you will be really hurting after a few hours on the range.
I use 1lb of RL22 to load 90-95 rounds....$17/lb up here in NH. (that's why I was asking anyone for a good store a couple memos back) You should also use a Federal magnum 215 rifle primer to light off that much powder. Those barnes bullets are expensive I got 50 (out of Cabella's) and it cost approx $20. I think some of the other guys were talking about Sierra or Hornady FMJBT match bullets in 168 or 190 gr. ....I'm going to experiment with those. Those Barnes are meant for penetration on big tough game. I am planning to use those on an arctic hunt.
gotta go back to work
jon
Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 15:26:35 (EDT)
To all: Interesting article by Layne Simpson in this month's Handloader
(#194) on the importance of using eye protection when target shooting AND
HUNTING! It's a good reminder if you can find the magazine and read the
article, but -- take nothing for granted, and use eye protection when shooting.
Always.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 15:30:51 (EDT)
Kodiak
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 16:17:59 (EDT)
Gooch: OK, let me have it! I was rasied as a Marine, that's why I went Army, been there, done that! Me brother pissed him off even worse, he went Navy as a Fighter pilot! I feel I can talk about all branches without a problem, (you should have been at some of our family reunions when I pointed out what was on all of Dad's checks and his id card)!! :-)
To whoever posted about stopping when hit, I AGREE!! I have been shot by a 7.62X39 and I stopped, RIGHT THEN!! (Guess I'm not mean enough)!!
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 16:40:41 (EDT)
And what about the 357 Sig. I haven't heard very many pro or cons about this caliber.
To any optical experts out there. Since you have convinced me not to purchase the Springfield, how about the Leopold 4.5 x 15 x 50 tactical long range, side focus with a 30 mm tube. Sounds pretty good to me.
Jim Craig: I'll call you this weekend.
Jeff Cooper: Thanks for your advice on the Redfield scope.
Gooch: If they say you are an EVIL man, how would they know unless they were evil also. Think about it. I think you should be nominated for the priesthood.
Beer's gettin cold here in steamy Ohio.
Later you Mugs
Al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
homesweethome, O-o-o-ohio USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 19:11:11
(EDT)
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 21:15:58 (EDT)
MSgt Craig. Wish I could've been in your fire team.
Medula shots. I've never shot anybody. Studied this for about 17 years. This is what I have found in my studies. A HIGH VELOCITY round with reasonable mass (.223 and up) that enters the cranium will drop the dude. A shot to the brain stem will stop any impulses to the body. MOST OF THE TIME.
Pistol round to the head. Nothing is for sure. Bullet can bounce off the skull.
This stuff makes for good conversation but it is an endless one.
Sgt G. What is the Gunny's name taking over the DM's?
Have you seen the M21 set up that the Navy EOD guys use? At MCSF,
Pac we borrowed some when we started our DM program. They were hard guns.
Heavy barrel, MacMillian stock, Bausch and Lomb Tactical scopes with tack
welded Brookfield mounts. I tried to convince the powers that be at MSCF
that the M40A1 was the way to go but we had this gun nut Major in S-3 who
wanted to do the M14 thing. I brought out some instructors from Quantico
(Sgt Riddle and SSgt Morris) to demo the M40A1 and shoot against the M14
based weapons. Of course the M40A1 out shot the M14, the troops liked the
M40A1 the best, so they went the M14 route! They used the match M14's we
had for the rifle team and mounted 6x Leupold scopes on some piece of shit
scope mount. I tried!
Jon - Please Email me any contacts you may have.
Rick - Get to work on that FTX!!
Gooch has left the building.
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 21:44:06 (EDT)
Please, everyone, do not send any more checks. I will only have to return them. Those of you wishing to donate to the Hathcock family may still do so as all your efforts were quite appreciated by the family. Send all donations to Carlos III. The address is provoded elsewhere on this site.
Thanks again to all who supported out effort to give a worthy man
a hand!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 22:05:37 (EDT)
Center mass IS the better target under stress, no question, because you're more likely to HIT it. HOWEVER, if the guy is in the right frame of mind, few if any pistol bullets will put him down, NOW, with one center mass shot. Depends on attitude, what he is on, lots of things. It's amazing what a human being can accomplish through sheer willpower. Just because your heart is blown out doesn't mean you aren't physically capable of functioning. There's still enough oxygen in the body to let it do a lot of nasty things to someone. So although center mass is the most likely HIT, eventually resulting in incapacitation, it is NOT the most efffective way to stop a guy, RIGHT NOW. All you snipers out there, speak up! YOU know where you have to shoot someone for a true, one-shot, right now kinda stop!
As for the big bores, YES, you have a point....HOWEVER, you'll also notice that in a charge, those guys ALL aim where? Head or spinal column! And if you've read Peter H. Captstick's stuff (I was a fanatic as a kid) you'll remember that he explains favoring big bore solids on heavy game because they PENETRATE! On light-skinned, dangerous game like leopards, he wasn't as picky, unless it was a charge, in which case he preferred a 12 gauge with SSG or OO buck over anything.
By the way, the most famous elephant hunter of all time, WDM Bell, favored a .303 Lee-Enfield. He was just a good enough shot that he could kill elephants with that gun, every time. So size ain't everything! SHOT PLACEMENT!!
If you want him down right now, you have to shoot him in the head.
Otherwise, shoot center mass and keep shooting until the threat is over.
If you have a choice, do this with a rifle/shotgun. If you must use a pistol,
expect to have to shoot several times, no matter what it is.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 22:21:49 (EDT)
(1) I carry a .45 when I carry, unless it's in the service of Uncle Sam, in which case I carry what I'm told to carry (and don't like it one bit, either).
(2) If I have to shoot someone with either pistol, I will aim center mass and keep shooting until he is down, unconscious, drained of all blood, and preferably skinned and smoked.
(3) If confronted with multiple targets, I will try to put at least one round in each of them, then go back and start doubling up until they are all in the condition referred to in (2) above.
(4) Given the opportunity, I will, instead of confronting the target with my underpowered little toy, bring the target(s) to the attention of a Marine with an M16, SAW or M240G, and say, "hose him down."
(5) I have played devil's advocate long enough. I carry a .45 because I like it. If someone else likes a 9mm, that's fine with me...I don't see a big difference. If I had to pick a partner for a shootout, I'd take someone who was a great shot under stress, armed with a .380, over a piss poor shot armed with an LAR Grizzly in .45 Win Mag.
Left 20, add 40, record as target, end of mission, OUT!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 22:46:13 (EDT)
Russell: Send you the info on the shootout??? Get the book that I just listed for Bach, and then get a copy of "Ayoob Files: The Book" from Amazon.com which reprints his two very thorough articles on the matter. Then you'll have the same info I do. Is that what you were looking for? If not lemme know...
Big Ed: Glad we agreed we're on the same page re. the vests. Also I forgot to mention I have shot an old M69 vest with a .45ACP ball round from a GI M1911A1, and the vest stopped it. The bullet was recovered inside the vest's shell, it had almost no deformation. Big (diameter) & slow is not the answer against body armor!
I'm now done with 8 chapters of Lau's book, and I think it really has something for everyone. My only minor complaint is that it needs another round of proofreading! But the chapter on log books alone is worth the price... I'll do a "wannabe's review" of it when I'm done, but not here on the Roster as I'm sure the SCC would hunt me down for posting something that long!
DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 22:54:20 (EDT)
straight shooting!
Haraldur Gustafsson <hallig@austurland.is>
Egilsst., Iceland - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 00:07:54 (EDT)
SCC: Sorry for the double post, as you know I'M OLD!!!!!
To All: I have shot people, with an M16, M21, .45 & M1 Carbine and they all work.....One of the 16s was a shot above me and I hit the guy in the left leg on an upward slant and the round came out through his right shoulder!!! His day was pretty well "shot".....It all boils down to this: EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT!!!!!! Sometimes the guy will drop, sometimes not, as the Gooch says, KEEP FIRING until he stops moving......
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 01:30:16 (EDT)
Certainly, you've restored our faith in humanity. Please, PLEASE, you "sniper people," keep this discussion going FOREVER!!! Speaking for all of us here at Guns & Whammo, we NEVER tire of this discussion -- and it's obvious that NONE OF YOU EVER TIRE OF IT EITHER! We hope you kind folks NEVER return to discussions about sniper operations and equipment.
Very Respectfully,
Pierre A. Bellum
Senior Editor
Guns & Whammo Magazine
Russell E. Taylor` <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 01:30:28 (EDT)
Do you have anything on squib loads in an upcoming issue? My father says Viagra helps, though some of the old bench rest shooters with whom I have spoken recommend a vigorous rubbing down of the barrel, just before competition. If I try the latter, should I use lubricant? And if so, which brand?
R. U. Keating <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 02:09:12 (EDT)
Camo !
What kind of face paint do you guy´s use ? Sticks, cream ?
Do you stick to the old Indian or the Conan style. Or the darken
the high spots and lighten the lower regions ?
After we were not allowed to cam up our faces in the German military
for the last 5 or so years because the cam stick we had was not "skin tested"
by a dermatologist, we now have,´Taadaaa´, a new camo cream
that makes you skin nice and soft, you Brutes!
And I can order my men to cam up again ! We did anyway, but I could
make anyone do it that did´nt want to.
So what is the best brand ? With or without Bug Juice? Does the
Avon lady carry it ?
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
very wet, and green Germany - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 02:21:05 (EDT)
Shot out
Imasoft <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 06:24:39 (EDT)
Gooch, Bain or ?: What's the best, (read cheepest) source of the Match King 175gr bullets?? I know it's probably covered somewhere here but what's the best load for my old muzzle loading M21?????
Mr Bellum: Thanks so much for keeping the subject on the 45 vs 9mm issue. It's so near and dear to my heart.....Why to think some people talk about Sniping and equipment, I'm shocked, shocked........
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 06:39:19 (EDT)
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
relaxing for the day in, West Virginia USA - Friday, July 10, 1998
at 07:13:30 (EDT)
Bless everyone who is was or will be taking care of us stupid civilians out there
Ooops, wife is calling again. I think its garbage day!
al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
South of Lake Erie, Ohio USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 07:38:49 (EDT)
Now, on to sniping related material! Someone asked about the availability
of 175 grain MKs. Folks, if you buy these things from Cabellas or similiar
outlets, you are paying too much. Check out Creedmore Sports, Champoins
Choice, Sparten supply, Natchez, and other high power related outlets.
You must bulk buy (500 rounds) but you can get the cost down to a fairly
good price. Avoid Midway, Gander Mountain, Cabellas, Redhead, Bass Pro
and such. They are good sources for some things, but not bulk components.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 08:00:40 (EDT)
I have a question about whether such a thing as knockdown power exists.
SGT G stated that the FBI's position on this is that since every action
has an equal and opposite reaction, a bullet cannot knock down it's human
target without simultaneously knocking down it's shooter [in so many words].
Therefore, knock down power cannot exist. Well, if I walk over to you and
shove you in the chest with my open hand reasonably hard and you tip over,
isn't that knock down power? It wouldn't necessarily cause me to fall over.
Can't a bullet transfer (a la Russ) more energy than I can generate and
then transfer with my hand? I'll bet if someone shot me, especially on
a long axis like from the left shoulder through the right shoulder, I would
be knocked off of my feet. Maybe I'm just a wuss.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 09:22:44 (EDT)
T. Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 11:00:00 (EDT)
Both the McMillan and the H&S are good stocks you can't
go wronge with either one. I've used both but have tended to stay
with the H&S because of the aluminum bedding block. I've found that
if you dont pillar bed the McMillan stocks after a period of time you can
start to "Crush" the action area. I still bed the H&S stocks with steel
devcon it makes them a better shooter in my experience. My experence has
also been that most of the actions that come from the factory are in a
bind in the stock. You can check this by loosening the front action screw
while holding light pressure on the front part of the stock and bbl. if
its bound up you will feel the gun start to lift up out of the stock. A
little work with a dremell tool will usually take care of this problem
and your gun will shoot better, hope this helps.
Pat Murphy <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 12:21:15 (EDT)
DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 12:37:03 (EDT)
Back to long range items of interest! Is anyone here going to attend
the October sniper competition at SMTC? Also, there is talk of an Autauga
sponsored sniper event at Ft. Benning, details yet unknown. It is great
to see tactical shooting taking off as a "sport" of sorts. While competition
is not reality, it is a great way to practice the skill set and keep up
to speed.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 12:46:56 (EDT)
Re: the concept of knockdown power. I have already worn out my welcome lately. Let me just say that there's a lot of bad science floatin' 'round here, posted by those who say it exists. It doesn't. End of story. Period. Newton says so, and he's usually right (except when it comes to subatomic stuff). E-mail me if you want to discuss further.
Out.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 16:51:34 (EDT)
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Warm and willing in , West Virginia USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at
18:44:12 (EDT)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 20:42:25 (EDT)
Camo compac! Gvt Issue! Fred Bear face cream!!! Yada Yada.
I'll bet if we all got together in a bar we couldn't decide on what beer to buy! A bunch of grumpy old men!
I like camo compac from Hunters specialty in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. They also make bow flage spray paint and camo tape. Sorry don't have a address. Mirror doubles as a signal mirror etc.
Gotta go pack for the Canada trip! Hope I can get online up there. Hope to hook up with Canjumper.
We're gonna spank'em for the good ole US of A!.
Now where did I put those chicken bones?
Gooch out!
Gooch <kdgooch>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 20:58:49 (EDT)
We still can use more shooters for the Tactical Marksman Match and
Carlos Hathcock Charity II shoot in Wyoming. You have all been on a roll
with the .45 vs 9mm discussion. This match uses both handgun and tactical
rifle. Come on out and test your handgun and rifle as well as put your
personal skills to the task. Can you engage multiple pistol targets quickly
then take your position and solve for the long shot then make it? Can you
hit an egg at 500 yds. Come on out and see. Check the Match sitrep on the
link in this site.
J Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 21:18:40 (EDT)
Torsten - I've sent several Emails to you with them being returned as not delivered after three days! Hope todays got to you. To let you know, I talked to Steve today and he will get you the manuals you asked about sometime ago and I also mentioned some of the others. He'll be in touch. On Camo, light low, dark high, use the paste not the cream, the stick truely is a pain in the butt even with bug juice. On the .50 Cal, try RAD industries .50, with rotary 5 round mag. This sucker SHOOTS, and recoil is squat. Back blast will rock you though! I've shot it off hand and it is quite tame, as is their 14.5mm.
Brent, Sgt Gimmellie, and all on the mythical Medulla shot. I've done and seen. If the hit is right the guy drops straight down like a dropped bag. This is seldom seen because the medulla is so small and is resistant to shock of the temp cavity. If the guy is "Knocked flying" then it was not a medulla shot due to the autonamic nervous system that jerks your hand away from heat. The jerk is nerve to muscle without brain input. The pain is brain input. As far as being knocked a** over tea kettle, normal bullets DON'T do that. Watch the tape or demonstration given by Dick Davis of Second Chance. He takes hits from an SKS at point blank while standing on one foot. I've been hit with 7.62x39 and didn't even know it until the fight was over with. Then again I was almost knocked out of a chopper from tiny pieces of shrapnel. Difference was muscle response due to the hit and noise. You jerk away, and this causes the perceived knocked over the table effect. This should cause some responses!!
Haraldur - Sub sonic on a sniper rifle will actually allow a trained individual to estimate your location better than a full load. The sub sonic buzzes from shooter to target and this gives a line of flight. The round could not of been fired more than 200 meters away, thus location is rapidly figured. We, at one time until the safety anal retentives stopped it, trained our guys by shooting at them with everything from a supressed .50 to .22 at ranges from 1000 meters to 100 meters. They were to tell us the cal., gun, and location of the shot. Suppressed full loads were impossible to tell, all other rounds were easy to tell after a period of train up.
Jon Manley - Don't plan on getting 2000 rounds out of your 300 Win Mag unless you don't care about flyers. Almost all comp shooters change at 600 to 800 and we were planning on 2000 based on military use of torso shots, and not presision shots.
S. Freeman - M24s are not bedded, they use only the bedding block. We still achieve sub moa at 200. We must be able to disassemble our weapons in the field and bedding won't allow that.
Sorry this is so long, hadn't had my SC fix in a while. Gooch, FTX done finally! Best of Luck at Canada shoot even if you don't need it. Honestly, you're not an evil man.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:17:42 (EDT)
To Scott: I’ve already made my reservations at Econo Lodge for the November competition and requested info from Rod Ryan. Also, I’ve actually begun to get into shape. That stalk really zapped me. I’m following a training route similar to that you & Mr. Bain did for your Counter Sniper Course at Storm Mountain Training Center. I hope it helps. It can’t hurt !! BTW, what color is the grass that time of year? I’m still working on my ghillie........ Also, I rcvd. my 6 t-shirts.
To All: RE: Knockdown power. Read Ed Matunas’ writings in Big Game
Cartridges and Rifles (from Lyman Corp) He does a very good job at putting
velocity, caliber, weight, etc., into a usable perspective. The writing
applies to hunting animals of different weights at varying ranges, and
the calculations work for man-sized game. Ed very much stresses SHOT PLACEMENT
regardless of bullet weight, etc.
Butch <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
N'awlins, LA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:31:43 (EDT)
While I have never shot anyone, in the medulla or any other part of the anatomy, and don't plan to, I have, however shot more than a few deer in the head, with a variety of different firearms, including a Danny Wesson 15-2 .357, a .54 caliber flintlock shooting patched roundballs, and my little ole Remington 788 carbine in .308 Win., and the effect has been the same every time: The legs just fold up under the deer while it goes straight down, dead before it hits the ground. The maximum range on any of these shots has been about 75 yards.
Regarding "incapacitation" shots, I have also made quite a few shots
on the point of the deer's shoulder, at longer ranges, to make sure they
didn't run anywhere. I learned a hard lesson as a teenager about the so-called
"heart shot". That beautiful heart-shot buck covered 150 yards in an eye
blink, running right past another hunter who plugged him and claimed him.
That deer was dead after I shot him, he just didn't know it.
Pennsylvania's crowded deer seasons leave little room out there
for long tracking adventures. Put 'em down where they stand and you can
be pretty sure you'll get to tag the animal you shot! The point of the
shoulder shot dings the spine, and down they go.
I don't even know if a deer HAS a medulla, but I imagine the effect of a head shot on a deer is pretty much the same as one on a person.
Is this info relevant to this site? Maybe not, but hey, now I'm hunting
the deer on pipelines at 600-800 yards. Not near as many tagged,(none yet,
actually) but a ton of fun and a valuable lesson in patience and judgement.
Scott <swilliam@oak.kcsd.k12.pa.us>
pa USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:34:11 (EDT)
Great theory, but remember that a bowling ball weighs a helluva lot
more'n a bowling pin....kinda hard to achieve that sort of ratio between
projectile energy and target mass with a small arm vs. a man. Artillery
round? OK. Small arm? No. Only if you catch him off balance, in which case
he effectively weighs much less...kinda like if a boxer slips and falls.
Not a knockdown, right? Same principle applies.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:51:10 (EDT)
On the medulla shot, there is much controversy over this shot due to autononamous nerve function that is independant of the brain. The shot must shock the system so bad as to shut down that function as well. This requires a dead on hit and a target that isn't mind set to continue. There is a great video of a medulla shot in California. Perp dropped straight down with a 308 round in the head. Another California tape shows a perp shooting hostages with half a brain, literally.
Mr. Bain - Email me your sources name, if you and he doesn't mind. I think I know who you are talking about. If so, he and I have had some great "discussions" on some of these matters.
Have fun guys, I still haven't gotten a good fix of SC yet!!!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:55:11 (EDT)
If anyone is interested in a free copy of WinRELOADER 2.0
please contact me at my e-mail address, include your name and address
and we'll get one out to you ASAP.
Thanks in advance!
Al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
south of Lake Erie, Ohio USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 08:03:55
(EDT)
Also, has anyone packed the above simultaneously with the (DRGBG) Eagle Drag Bag ?
Rusty Rossey with Autauga (if you are listening): you guys sell this stuff; how do you attach and carry both? I’m looking at buying all 3 but want to know if the combination will work together. And Rusty, thanks for the bore guide.
Butch <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
N'awlins, LA USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 10:36:31 (EDT)
Scott: Could you please hit send just one more time????
Gooch: Have fun and shoot well....I answered your email and I'm looking forward to more when you get back on the net.....
Mr Bain: Please check email concerning loads.....Thanks..
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 12:11:58 (EDT)
To hit the medulla from a frontal shot it not the mythical "between the eyes". The shot is actulaly a few inches lower. In the area above the top lip but below the nose. Right in to the "snot ditch". The bullet will crash through the roots of the front teeth, into the mouth, into the rear wall of the mouth (all of which to this point is soft) through the hole in the base of the skull (which basicly connects your head to the rest of your body) strait into the medulla. If the shot is alligned strait, this WILL cause instant death.
I know a man who attempted to kill himself with a 9mm. He put the
muzzel of the pistol against his temple and fired. After someone found
him, they shipped him off to the hospital and put Hupty Dupty back together
again. He now has a large dent in his skull & talks like he is retarted,
but he is alive with most of his motor functions. Proof positive that that
a simple head shot does not instant death. I guess that this can be added
to the 9mm vs .45 ACP debate.
Big John <scratch@1st.net>
Short Creek, Ohio USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 13:05:01 (EDT)
Big Ed - It is not a matter of being a tough guy, as being so blasted scared and focused on the situation. This causes the shock and numbness of the impact to be lower on the awareness scale of the other sensory input from a hord of buttheads trying their best to seriously inpede your ability to grow older. I am not alone in this having happened. I have talked to a number of guys that have been shot and not known it until after the fire fight. To be absolutely honest, I registered, somewhere in my fog shrouded brain, that something had hit me. However, I assumed that it was a rock, dirt clod or something that only impacted, not penetrated. You get used to things bouncing off of you when the world has turned to crap in an instant.
Nate - The individual you are talking about is Richard Davis, President and founder of Second Chance. He does that on a regular basis. I also have a tape of him taking SKS hits in the chest while standing on one foot, and the British have a tape of a guy walking fforward with their vest on while absorbing impacts on the chest. Water Jug hits prove only that slow and big causes water to move out of the way much more forcefully than small and fast. THAT is the only thing it proves. A black powder .44-70 REALLY moves the water!!!
Well, once again I got long winded! Russ, sorry, I'll try to keep my ramblings under control. It had just been so long since I could respond that I was having withdrawal pains!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 14:06:51 (EDT)
Gunnar Andersen was a Norwegian Waffen SS ski patrol soldier. In jan. 44 he was transferred to a german unit to teach them the art of skiing. There were no regular frontline in the polar part of Finland only fortified strongpoints on both sides and lots of patroling. German planes had spotted som russian movements in the short time of daylight. A 10 man patrol was set up and Gunnar was point man as usual due to his skiingabilities in fresh snow. After a 4 hour nervewreckng patrol in moonlight and -39degC spotting for russians without seeing any the patrol returned to the strongpoint wich were manned by ca. 100 germans. Gunnar fell asleep at once in one of the wooden bunkers. Only 30 min. later Gunnar woke from gunfire. He only manged to get his MP40 with one mag with him. Gunnars bunker was in the oposite side from were the russians were attacing with a large force. Some of the other wooden bunkers were already burning, lighting up the polar night. Gunnar found a perfect fireingposition against the second wave of russians comimg from the surrounding woods. In the light from the fires Gunnar started taking them down. With only one mag in his MP40 he let one russian into his trench and shot him capturing a PPSh and two full mags. Continiuing taking out russians until almost out of ammo again he repeated the trenchtrick and captured more ammo and kept on shooting. A german officer then shouted "We are getting support, we are saved". It was a trick but the russians panicked and bailed out. After the battle it was discovered that Gunnar singlehandedly held one of the fireingsectors and he was credited with 74 kills. Not bad with 9mm and 7.63mm subguns. Gunnar got the Iron Cross. Indeed all the 29 remaining germans and a few norwegians still alive got it. The russians lost 196 killed. They took the wounded with them.
The knowlege of winterwarfare has not been lost. Waffen SS veterans has been used by the postwar Norwegian army as instructors.
When the border was moved after the war these old frontlines were
left almost untouched in the Soviet Union until 1990 when civilians and
foreigners got access. Very interesting for the amateur historian.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 07:58:29 (EDT)
Sorry to be the troublemaker. Hate to back down from an argument,
even if it's half-hearted!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 09:03:40 (EDT)
Hey Scott F., try the double posting technique: you just hit the submit bar twice.
I know a guy in California who was withdrawing money from an ATM
when 4 punks attempted to rob him. One immediately shot him in the front
right portion of the skull a little above the eye. The bullet (.380 Auto
yes, but a 9mm nonetheless) changed direction and travelled underneath
his skin almost the entire circumference of his head. He was so angry that
he put two of them in the hospital using his fists. The other two ran away.
He's o.k. but is more careful around ATMs now. I told him that he's lucky
he wasn't shot with a 230 grain .45 bullet because they tend to keep going
where they were pointed.
Big Paul J. Headlee <bigpheadlee@bignetworksplus.bignet>
Big Ogden, Big KS USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 09:11:06 (EDT)
Ende
Torsten
Germany - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 12:47:05 (EDT)
Torsten - your story about the .25 sets the trend for "bonehead" blunders.
Well since were in a reflective mood. I had to pick an old man up one night during an ambulance rotation for severe headaches. We took the man to the ER and left. Two hours later we were contacted by the ER to carry the man home. It turns out that the Doctor was going to order an MRI on the man but took an X-ray first. They found a bullet in the mans rear cranial space. When questioned the man stated that he had tried to kill himself ten years earlier with a 9mm Luger. He put the barrel to his inner left eye and pulled the trigger. Nothing happened except for minor bleeding at the entrance wound. The man didn't even have a visual problem. He was so scared that he told no one and the site healed perfectly. Isn't that weird? Please note that I'm not trying to rehash the 9mm vs 45ACP debates. I thought it was a fitting story for disclosure.
Sorry so long. Stay low and stay safe.
Brent <brenting@juno.com>
Shreveport, La USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 18:04:03 (EDT)
The russians were probably already preparing to attack the stongpoint. The partol had missed the russians on their way in. The russians followed. The strongpoint was very well defended with minefields, MG-bunkers, etc. The russian usually attacked with overwhelming forces. This force numbered probably 1000-1500. They had light arty. on sleds and mortars.
These strongpoints were on their own. The next one was 2-3km away. Reserves even longer away. No arty. within range. Strategic defence was done in depth, counterattacking in the flanks. The finns were experts at this with kill/loss-ratios never seen before or sience by antagonists on the same technical level.
Wintherwarfare is something different. In extreme cold you don't have any far forward LP's. You freeze to death. Watches are usually 10-20min. Skipatroling is difficult. I know. I've trained on it extensively. The standard drill is to spot followers with an ambush on a downhill. Trouble is Finland is flat. Performing "fishhook"-tracks in the dark is very difficult. The pace of the patrol must sometimes be fast to cover a large area, 40-50km in one night carrieng all your equipment with you. As a sniper I think a boltrifle is a handicap. I preferred an accurate G3 with a scope in QD-mounts with a realistic 600m range in these conditions. You win more than you loose. Spotting is done with a pair of 10X40 Zeiss binocs. No room for regular spottingscopes or dragbags.
In extreme cold you need "sloppy" weapons like AK47's or M98's. Tight weapons, like MG34 (M16 ?), needs to have all lubricants removed by boiling. Fireing them completely dry. I've had misfires with Rem 700 SA in -36degC. The spring/plunger-ejector didn't work either. Boiling the bolt did the trick. G3's and MG42/MG3's work well with Mobil 1 synthetic engineoil. Just get someone else to clean them after they've been fired!
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 18:16:54 (EDT)
Several weeks ago I posted some observations on my experiences with FMJ ball dipped in automotive moly grease as an el-cheapo version of moly coating. I had unexplained high shots out the top. I also found it was tough to find the main point of impact with only two sighters.
Today I shot 600, 900 and 1000 yds with clean well-wiped FMJ ball in a bore that had been pre-greased with about 10 passes of a patch well soaked with automotive moly grease. Better results. After two foulers and two sighters I settled in for as good groups as I'm capable of shooting, and as good as that rifle. However, the group opened up at 1000 yds. Probably because of powder fouling. I wiped the chamber after each range.
So - bullets dipped in moly grease - not consistent. Bore lubricated with moly grease - much more consistent, except push a clean patch through the bore and reapply lubricant. Always clean the chamber.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 21:32:29 (EDT)
Use the checklists of what you would need for a long long day of still hunting deer to help focus your attention. (Not that I am trying to tell any professionals their job...)
The next place to look is Maj John Plaster's book, The Ultimate Sniper. He has a lot of very useful and obviously learned by experience equipment tips.
Finally, a small bore coach of mine always told us that skill would beat equipment in the hands of someone who knows what to do. Don't go whole hog buying gear - go all out practicing. As the posting about wild boar hunting with a handgun illustrates.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 22:22:36 (EDT)
I really don't like trips to the woodshed in public, but sometimes it's necesary:
DID YOU READ OUR "IN-COUNTRY BRIEFING?" Let me remind you what the briefing states:
"Further, Sniper Country makes no claims or representations with respect to any handloading information contained on this page. Any person using handloading information obtained from this page must remember that each gun/load combination will result in different pressures and any handloader must work up from a minimum load to any load listed on this web site, keeping in mind the safety of the handloader and those around him."
You are dammed lucky to be in possession of your eye, the fingers of your hand, and the hand itself! Never, and I repeat, never load the maximum! If you had injured yourself, your lawyer would have come after us and then I would have had to have gone to NE in the Summer (something I really would not enjoy)to get the case thrown out of court!
We aren't rich guys and we don't do this for money. We do this to help L.E. and military shooters with their profession, as well as to enlighten civilians about a very difficult and demanding way of life. In return, we expect that our guests/visitors/friends read the rules and use common sense. Just because an engineer from ARDEC tells us that the M852 or M118 is loaded with 42 gr. of IMR 4895, and just because the engineering drawings and technical reports we have say the same thing, that doesn't mean you, I, or anyone else should load cartridges with that much powder, at least not initially and without a chronograph. Why? Because these things blow up!!! That's why Remington has such long throats. Be thankful that the company built the bolt gun you have this way. And remember, WE DID NOT TELL YOU TO DO THIS, NOR DID WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO DO SO!
I apologize, Robb, for the public chastisement. I know that for every person who comes forward, as you have, to tell his tale of woe, there are many, many more out there who are thinking of doing the same thing or who have done the same thing. Thank you for having the guts to admit your mistake on the Roster. Please, be careful and don't hurt yourself. We don't want to lose you or any of our other friends.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anyplace, but state court in NE, USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 00:30:17
(EDT)
Semper FI
Timothy Gardiner <redpatchmarine@hotmail.com>
FWB, FL USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 01:01:53 (EDT)
Bob Feliciano & Scott F: Speaking of H/S/ precision stocks and McMillan. Many say McMillian stocks are the way to go. I have built numerous sniper quality .308 and .223 and 300 Win Mags on HS Precision stocks and am very happy with the results. Some of my customers do insist on McMillan and then the waiting period starts. I have been waiting for a A-3 from McMillan for one of my customers for over 13 weeks. When I called up last week and asked them whe I could expect it, they PROMISED it by the end of last week. I'm still waiting! So much for customer service and corporate creditibility. Nuff said.
Waitin' in Ohio
Al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 01:14:51 (EDT)
Well actually you kinda did. I followed the info on this site. Based
on lots and lots of other info I have found to be quite useful here ( how
do you think I ended up with the SR-25M), I chose to use that reload info
too. Im not defending myself here but I am being painfully honest. I dont
like admitting I did this. You may not have intended for me to be encouraged
by this information but in my heart, I really was. Under normal circumstances
I do work up from minimum loads. For reasons to lengthy to discuss here
I loaded 300 rounds of the illfated stuff. For the main reason that I trusted
the information I found here. Its that simple. (tell youre lawyer to go
back to bed, Im emptying the other 298 rounds I have left)
Secondly I am the kinda guy who isnt afraid to take responsiblility
for his own actions, so I wouldnt sue anyone over this kinda thing. But
I think youre right that Im not the only one to have pulled this kinda
bonehead maneuver.
BTW If you think EVERYONE reads that legal mumbo jumbo disclaimer
at the beginning I feel youre sorely deluding yourself. Do you fully read
the software license agreement everytime you install some software ? Dont
fib now! I am sure youre statement is written to get you out of any LEGAL
responsiblilty though and If I were you I'd have that statement too.
The Painful truth is: WAS encouraged by the info I found here whether I was should have been or not. And I acted on it. Plain and Simple.
I didnt start this whole thread to get to this previous statement, or looking for someone to blame. I learned the hard-way about re-load info on the net, I just wanted to know why it worked fine in one gun and not the other. but since the rest was mentioned I responded in-kind.....
I hope someone else who would have considered doing this kind of a thing "in a pinch", will pick up from my mistake that I have shared with the public at large here on Duty Roster. FOr those readers who might think to themselves "Its dip-s@@tz like you who make the legal mumbo jumbo necessary" I say : "welcome to the reality of accessible infopickion on the net by the general public".
Robb
PS. MR Bain: That was a well deserved trip to the woodshed, I just hope a lot of others saw you take me there so they dont do what I did too.
Robb
NE USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 01:25:12 (EDT)
Keep your eye on the scale,
AL
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Indians Country, Ohio USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 01:26:17 (EDT)
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 04:19:37 (EDT)
Try Lapua LockBase 150gr and 170gr.
These bullets are VLD's with very high BC's
I've used the 150gr to replace the 147gr bullet in standard NATO ammo with very good results for military matches. Exellent in G3's.
The 170gr LockBase can be loaded to over 2700fps in a .308 with VV
N550. Accuracy is exellent in Steyr, Sauer and H&K hammerforged barrels.
BC is higher than 175gr SMK.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 06:32:45 (EDT)
Help me. You mentioned that maybe you have ballistic tables of M852.
I have to finish my term work. Can I feed them Fed .308, 168 Gr
BTHP Match tables instead of M852?
Sounds silly but what can I do.
If you intend to answer can't you e-mail to me directly. There is so many info around in Duty Roster. It's hard to find answers.
Laur
from Estonia
Laur <sk@eol.ee>
Tallinn, Estonia - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 07:56:40 (EDT)
At times it is very difficult for us in the United States to get "Vit" powder. Does anyone here have a good avenue to get the Vit powder and the Lapua bullets.
al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 09:45:03 (EDT)
I read your post about my request for Ideas on gear for the Wyoming
match and I could'nt agree more, but I know this is suppose to be a pretty
demanding course and it would be nice not to lug along a lot of stuff I
dont need. Both Gooch and Jim Craig were kind enough to help me out in
this department and I greatly appreciated it and I'am looking forward to
meeeting both at the match in august. As for practice, I hear you buddy,
my wife thinks I'am having an affair with someone at the range but once
again knowing what you'll be shooting at helps alot too.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 12:34:50 (EDT)
Oh, yeah... I'm just a weeeeeeeeeee bit "miffed" at this turning into such BEATEN TO DEATH orations! It'd be different if it was "new" -- BUT IT'S NOT NEW!!! JESUS H. CHRIST, THIS STUFF HAS BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH IN EVERY !#%@#!@#% GUN RAG ON THE MARKET!!! Hey, if you've got a 9mm/.45/.357 comment to make... DO IT BY E-MAIL TO THE GUY IT CONCERNS!!! To quote Steve McQueen as Tom Horn in the movie by the same name... "this is my last word on this matter."
On reloading: Legally, Robb, you've been addressed. However, being someone who does more handloading than most people, ONE -- you are a "human" being, capable of determining your own destiny (no one here "brainwashed" you into doing anything), TWO -- Clint McKee pulled his bulletin board system because someone posted some load data that got someone hurt... I do NOT want to do the same thing here because of you!... THREE -- you ALWAYS, ALWAYS, "ALWAYS" WORK UP LOADS IN ACCORDANCE WITH PUBLISHED DATA!!! When you think you've got the time under your belt that you feel you can just "jump in," then that's fine -- but be advised YOU did it, no one else.
Hey, I'm working up... I said, "WORKING UP"... loads for my .338/378
Weatherby Magnum, using Hodgdon's H50BMG powder. Don't know if you've noticed,
Robb, but THERE'S NO DATA FOR THIS!!! However... I put in COUNTLESS HOURS
of newsgroups research, sending E-mails, pouring through my existing manuals
(I've got them all), talking to the Hodgdon guys on the phone -- at length
-- and talking to the "big boys" who play with .50 BMGs and are used to
using VERY slow-burning powders! And after MONTHS of this... I started
working up loads. I wear eye protection, ALWAYS, when I prime cases and
when I shoot ammunition. I broke in the barrel with 117 grains of H50BMG
with uncoated 300-grain Sierra bullets (again, no load data is published
for this combination), and now I'll be using moly-coated bullets with 120,
121, 122, and 123 grains of powder. Nobody "suggested, encouraged, or coerced"
me into this project nor into using these loads, but after years of this
stuff I "think" (stress, "THINK") I know what I'm doing... and I "STILL"
go through the "work up loads" process!!!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 15:19:55 (EDT)
==============
Posted by andrew on June 10, 1998 at 22:35:18:
I would like a more detailed answer as to why the armed forces have chosen Leupold tactical scopes. My personal experience is with 1" leupolds and I have found them sorely lacking in light-gathering ability. Are the 30mm's as good as the european scopes in this respect? Are they far superior to the 1" tubes? Why not use a larger objective lens? Is it considered too bulky to be practical? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
And the following follow-ups were posted:
Posted by EShack on June 15, 1998 at 22:47:14:
wondering what's the value of Sig 550 sniper? how many of them were
made? any one shot one? is it really worth the money? and how does it compare
to PSG1?
thanks in advance for any inputs
==============
Posted by Gen. George Mann on June 16, 1998 at 22:28:18:
This is one hell of a page you boys have set up here, keep up the good work soldier!
==============
Posted by Bryan on June 17, 1998 at 21:49:41:
Anyone out there who know's where I can get a Parker-Hale m-82 would be greatly appreciated.
And the following follow-ups were posted:
Posted by Bill Brown on June 21, 1998 at 20:52:42:
I am looking for a sniper scope and I'm not crazy about Leupold,I
have seen the Shepherd scopes advertised in Shotgun News for years.Does
anyone have experience with them? I'd like to know what I'm getting before
I shell out $500 for it. I know that it has a lifetime warranty and that
sounds good but it won't help much if I'm getting shot at or relying on
the scope to work. Any responses are appreciated
(e-mail if you like)
And the following follow-ups were posted:
I HAVE HAD A LOT OF EXPERENCE WITH THE SHEPHERD SCOPE
I HAD ONE ON A 300 WIN MAG AND IT WORKED AS ADVERTISED BUT
THE BIGGEST DRAW BACK WAS THE LACK OF EYE RELEIF. WHEN SHOOTING PRONE
IT WOULD COME BACK AND BITE YOU. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS THAT THE CIRCLES
ARE SO CLOSE IN SIZE ONCE YOU GET PAST THE 600 YARD MARK ITS HARD TO TELL
THE EXACT YARDAGE, BUT THEY ARE QUICK TO USE AND MAY WORK FINE WITH A 308.
HOPE THIS HELPS.
Not enough power for real long range viewing.On a 375 weatherby
with brake the recoil damaged the crosshairs.the scope was replaced,but
can't handle heavy power.For 223 or 308 would work fine.
get the leopold. its a great scope and dosnt have all those silly
bells and wistles the shepherd scopes do. i dont care what sheperd says,
the more parts there are on a scope the more chances you have of somthing
going wrong. the bottom line is: ive heard many people complain about the
shepherd scopes, ive never heard someone complain about there leopold
questions, comments email me
Posted by James on June 22, 1998 at 14:16:17:
Have you shot a dpms ar if so tell me what you think of this brand of gun beside a colt or bushmaster?
And the following follow-ups were posted:
Posted by Pecos Bill on June 23, 1998 at 17:42:19:
This is just My opinion but for anybody that gets U.S. Cav catalogs,
if you haven't checked out Brigade Quartermasters, you need to. They have
comparable prices and a much better selection. Cav has started marketing
camo as fashionable
and they have too much unrelated junk. Civil war swords?
The owner has a collection of them so he must put in what he likes
not what we want Brigades address is "www.actiongear.com" if you haven't
seen it,I hope you like it !!
And the following follow-ups were posted:
Posted by Sandy Cambron on June 23, 1998 at 18:15:43:
I am new to precision shooting and have just purchased a Remington
700 PSS. I am now in the process of adding a scope and am completely overwhelmed.
I am looking for a scope with a mil dot reticle and target turrets. I guess
it should be variable power in the range of 4 to 14 power. I have looked
at a Leupold Vari X III (is the new paralax adjustment knob necessary?).
I have also looked at the Springfield Armory second generation 4-14x56.
I liked the features of the scope but couldn't figure out the reticle by
reading the instruction manual. I also understand Burris has come out with
a mil dot reticle in their Signature Series. I am a civilian shooter, but
I want something that I will not outgrow or break as I become more experienced.
I realize this question is very subjective, but in reading the posts on
this board, I know there is tremendous experience and I'm looking for opinions.
Thanks.
And the following follow-ups were posted:
id definitly say go with the leopold. you get a lifetime guarntee and
one of the finest optics available. is the new
paralax adjustment knob necessary? well only if you will be shooting
at targets within 100 yards or less. this nob is mainly for swat type snipers
who are expected to shoot less than 70 yards.but if your shooting long
distance, no its not realy necessary. also the only time you realy need
mil dots are when your shooting at human like targets.email me for any
questions or comments.
ps sorry about spelling
Sandy,
I have been a user/owner of a Remington 700 PSS for years and have
much experience with Leupold scopes. I have not seen a scope, in the same
price range, that surpassed the Leupold. With various models, you will
find them in most Millitary and Police armorys. Leupold builds an excellent
product. And their price is (hold your breath while I say this) competitive.
Also remember not to get cheap on your mounts. I recommend "Precision
Reflex" mounts. They are very rugged, dependable and expensive. But well
worth it. If money becomes an issue in this area, then again, the Leupolds
will suffice.
Hope this helps.
Big John
I have been doing a bit of research into this topic and have found from multiple interview with many levels of shooter that the Leopold Scopes are one of the best on the market. As for the Mil dots and that they are only useful for shooting Human like target, I find this to be in error Mil Dots can be used to effectivly estimate range for any pupose including Humans like targets, Vehicles, or just a basic target. Good luck in you research.
Posted by BigEd on June 29, 1998 at 01:43:50:
Looking to buy a SOCOM .45 at a decent price. Please email me with any info. Are these worth the money? Have heard a few comments but would like more info.
And the following follow-ups were posted:
What would you need a 4 lb .45 pistol the size of a MP5 for? We only have them because we have to. Surely you could find something else to spend $2K on. Don't get caught up in the "just because THEY have it I need one" syndrome.Good luck.
Posted by Bryan Trunnell on July 04, 1998 at 00:58:00:
I own a rail-equipped SVT-40, with an aftermarket scope mount
and scope. I have two problems: despite attempts to lock the mount system
to the weapon, it still shakes loose after about 20 rounds. I don't want
to drill the reciever, thus messing with the historical value, so I'd like
to know if I have any other options. Also, the extraction system is positive,
but ejects at about 1-to-2 o'clock- strait up into the glass, with predictable
results. Scout scopes are a joke, so I'd like pointers to find a deflector
in order to find use loger glass. The weapon is a dream to shoot, and I
can drill man sized targets at 500+ meters on the iron sights ( I'm a little
nearsighted ). Also, is there a link to long-range competition results
on the east coast ? I'm looking for Eric Jones from Mass and Tim Rawcliffe
from 'Jersey.
Thanks, Turtle
==============
Posted by Big John on July 04, 1998 at 10:03:36:
Ok boys, I have a few extra dollars to spend on a good long range rifle. I now have a Remington 700 PSS in .308 Win. But this rifle's abilities are limited after 500 Yards. So I am looking for something to fill in the gap. I would Like to hear from those of you who have bought rifles in this price range and would appreciate your comments as to their strengths and shortcomings. Also, you dealers out there; Let me know what you have and how much you want for it!
Thanx in advance!
Big John
And the following follow-ups were posted:
Bruce G. Buell
NRA
National Coach Develoment Staff
Posted by Counselor on July 07, 1998 at 01:44:18:
Would like to hear from anyone who has first hand experience with the scopes offered by U.S. Optics. Thanks
And the following follow-ups were posted:
Sad to say, you story is one I have heard from others. I know a world
class bullet maker who has had two scopes on order since LAST AUGUST.
I have done a lot of research on U.S.Optics and they have a great product.
However, no one I have had contact with has anything good to say about
their delivery time or service.
I was about to lay down BIG MONEY for a 80mm SN-1 complete with their
very expensive rings and accessories. But I gave them a call on a couple
of issues not addressed in their detailed literature. They, and I mean
the main man himself, could not really answer a single question I presented
to him. In fact, he was almost rude and did not appear to care if he sold
a scope or not -- and the check was almost in the mail.
I hope you get your scope real soon. Don't hesitate to e-mail the outcome
and how you judge the investment.
Thanks and good luck.
Posted by Tim Washburn on July 09, 1998 at 21:25:32:
Any experience with accuracy, durability, etc. with the AR10? How does it compare to HK91, SR9TC, etc? Any info would be appreciated.
==============
Now, that's all there is, and enough of it I should think. Please refrain from causing me so much work! I don't have time to read the other nice posts here in the Roster now :-(
No we're not normally all so grumpy here at SC! Sometimes it just seems that way.
My thanks to Marius for the outstanding work on the Emporium, Events,
and Roster pages. Wow, our Editor-in-Chief ought to pay you more. Oh yeah,
we do this for free and we don't have any money to pay anyone with.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Huh?, Oh yeah, USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 17:38:16 (EDT)
RE Military / Fed Match losds. In my experience, the M-852 is NOT loaded w/ 42 gains of 4895. I've pulled & weighed many lot #s of 852 and M-118. The 852 is always about 40.5 of WHAT APPEARS TO BE 4895. The M-118 is about 44-44.3 grains of a ball powder (in the lots I've pulled, from 86 through 92 manufacture) that I've been told is WW-846, which is not a cannister grade powder, but is available on the surplus market. Federal match ammo I've pulled & weighed is about 42 grains, BUT IS DEFINITELY NOT 4895. Looks more like 4064
And do like they say, start low and work up, especially if you change any components. I just got done with a marathon load check session, testing a variety of charges with different bullets and powders. With the same powder charge, I got a difference of about 150 FPS difference just by switching from Sierra 168's to Hornady 168 A-Max's (the A-Max's were faster, going up to 2,887 FPS out of an M-1A-TOO HOT!!!)
Hope this helps
Tim
Tim Sarchett <tjsarchett@webtv.net>
Clovis , NM USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 22:30:01 (EDT)
"Thanks." I'm giving you a pay raise (double what you're now making) to include stock options, and I'm tripling the amount Sniper Country is currently paying into your retirement plan. Good work, lad, good work!
To Tim: Your comments on the A-Max are typical of what I've heard.
These bullets are QUICKLY developing quite a reputation for EXTREME accuracy,
and unfortunately I think the price will go up accordingly over time. I've
got a few hundred, moly-coated, waiting to get loaded for my Savage
110FP Tactical.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 00:22:01 (EDT)
My download time for the roster is just under 12 Sek. now, but I can forget posting anything in the late afternoon or evening.
Hey Russ, did the ugly pictures turn out ? Can I have one ?
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 02:22:32 (EDT)
just for interest, you don't have to download the full page to be
able to post. If you want to say something, not necessarily relating it
to a post, or read the others first, you can just let it load until you
can see the input areas, and have your fun. Then you can look at the rest
when download time is better.
I have that same problem here in South Africa - I don't even attempt
to read the Roster at home any more. I now just do it here at work where
we've got leased lines - normally during lunch.
Maintenance I still do from home, but it does take time.
Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 03:05:49 (EDT)
41gr Norma N200 behind a 125gr bullet is an overload. I get flattend primers with 40gr N200 behind a 110gr pill.
The fastest 125gr bullet, Nosler ball.tip, I've fired was backed
by Norma N202.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 04:02:40 (EDT)
a loyal visitor
Chris Lawson
Chris Lawson <lawzone@worldnet.att.net>
Marina, CA USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 04:27:27 (EDT)
I'm thinking about putting a "Red Mist" muzzle brake ( http://www.vegasnet.net/~velocity/muzbrk.htm )on a Remington 700 in 300 Win Mag and would like some help. Is this a good quality brake? How will a muzzle brake affect the accuracy of the rifle?
Please respond on this board or e-mail me with your words of wisdom.
Thanks in advance for any help received.
(Russ, I never got a reply to that e-mail I sent you)
Brian Middleton <bmiddleton@sprynet.com>
Irvine, CA USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 06:13:21 (EDT)
RKC
Robert K. Canfield <ISNYPE8541@aol.com>
Memphis, TN USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 06:39:12 (EDT)
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 08:31:33 (EDT)
In general, a brake can increase the endurable time of a shooting session. And, more importantly, accuracy "can" be retained (even enhanced) if... "if"... a competent gunsmith does the installation. If you're adding a new barrel, the "recommended" procedure is to freeze the barrel, turn it (for final contour), fit the muzzle brake into place, then freeze it again (this, if you're interested in removing all possible stresses during the barrel/brake installation process). This is how BlackStar prefers to address the matter.
To Torsten: I should be getting the pictures back today (I'm in a class for a few "days," so my lunch hour will permit me to get a few errands done.)
To Chris: Thanks for the kind words.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 10:00:22 (EDT)
Brian I have had several 300 win mags with breaks and the accuracy
never changed a bit but both were put on by very good gunsmiths to where
you couldnt tell where the barrel ended and the break began. I used the
Vias break and I feel it's one of the best I've ever tried. It seems to
work well and is'nt as loud as a lot of others I've shot.
You will definately have to where extra ear protection with breaks
and prone shooting with out a mat under the barrel can be a new experience
indeed. Hope this helps.
Pat
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 10:36:01 (EDT)
Thanks for the correction on the brake I was'nt sure of the correct
spelling. I know if he ever tries one and then compares it to another he'll
stay with the vais. Who is your gunsmith he sounds like my kind of guy?
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 15:14:47 (EDT)
PAY?? You actually mean I'm gonna get paid?!? Aw, shucks, now you're
making me blush, just look there.
Nah, coming to think of it, with the current value of money here?
Just give me books, plenty of books, that'll be fine.
Thank you sir, thank you very much. May you shoot them in the X-ring
at 1500 yards with "The Wrath of God" every time, for as long as I get
my books... :-)
Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 15:19:58 (EDT)
Gooch: Be sure and let me know what the outcome was....
Bain: Tried your recommendation on the weapon, as usual it was right on! Thanks again!!!!!
Marius: GREAT JOB LAD!!!! (On the books subject are they nudies or edumacation)? :-)
To All: A duty slotted friend of mine finally got a SOCOM 45 for
me to try, you were all correct, THEY SUCK! Fires well, nice weapon, (for
a giant).....(They're BIG ya know)!! :-) Also picked up a 400 corbon barrel
some time ago
for my .45, just drops in, works great, gives some more kick to
the old shooter!!!!
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 16:09:04 (EDT)
Actually I went by the book for everything but the powder charge, which I picked up here in a roundabout fashion. and Ive been regularly re-loading for my M1A since last Fall and have worked up several loads just for it since then. The SR-25 was a one-time mistake/adventure and its not like Im using a progressive loader or anything. But I digress...
RUSS T. :
I didnt mean to imply that you or SC brainwashed me, I just falsely
put too much trust in the information. Im pretty certain I explained the
realization my own destiny determination as well. However I will quit being
so honest from now on.
ON THE SR-25M:
Started at 39.5 grains yesterday in .5 grain increments and it shot
up to 42.5 without budging a primer this time. I didnt go any higher since
42 worked nicely and my exp with 43.5 went so poorly. Just figured I'd
give a follow up.
EVERYONE ELSE (TIM,AL,HARULDUR,BILL,MR.BAIN)
Thank you, I appreciate your _constructive_ input.
later....
Robb @ UNL
NE USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 18:10:38 (EDT)
Had duty yesterday. Glad I scrolled back a bit to see what I'd missed! I'd hate to become persona non grata around here! Nothing more from me on "TFB" (The Forbidden Subject), I promise you! Once I get that custom Mauser I might actually have something relevant to post here...wouldn't want to alienate you guys!
Sgt G: Are you instructing for the class that just picked up this
week? If so, drop me an e-mail. Three of your students are mine. I'll tell
you which ones, so you can make sure they get some personal attention!
Heheheh...
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 18:52:43 (EDT)
RE: Torque Settings for the Remington 700
The general guide line for torque settings on the Remington 700 is 65 inch pounds, not foot pounds. I have seen many stocks, trigger guards and actions ruined by over torqueing.
As I mentioned the 65 inch pounds is a guide line. If you want to get the most from your rifle start at 40 inch pounds and work your way up at 5 inch pound increments shooting a test group at each setting. Then record your setting in you data book. You also need to make sure you use the same torques wrench if you have to retorque.
The next thing to be aware of is if you are using the original alloy trigger guard this will have an effect on maintaining your torque settings. A steel trigger guard such as the D.D. Ross units will not flex and offer a much more solid foundation to pull your action screws against. I have seen the alloy trigger guards where the actions screws pulled through.
Various gunsmiths I have consulted with most all agree the H S Precision stocks are good but do benifit from having the action properly bedded to the action.
As for your scope mounts 65 inch pounds may be way to much to torque to. Have a qualified gunsmith set up the mounts. Not all the Remington recievers out there have been drilled properly and this will effect how much you will have to use the scopes internal adjustments to compensate.
Contact me if you have any questions or if I can be of any assistance.
Bruce G. Buell
National Coach Development Staff
Bruce Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Orange Park, FL USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 21:37:45 (EDT)
Did you read the article on the M72 military match cartridge on our "Ammunition and Reloading" page? The M72 was the only official military sniper round in .30-06. I seriously doubt that you will find much more information on the cartridge, unless you have access to someone's archives. There is also a new book out on the .30-06 cartridge. I read about it in the latest NRA magazine. Goes for $60.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Over here, over there USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:11:00 (EDT)
Eyes are getting heavy. Sending my wife out on patrol now.
Later
AL
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Sin CIty and Lovin it, Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:25:05
(EDT)
On the books. Nudities? Edumacation? Both, as long as the nudes are stripped-down rifles, revealing all secret places, and the education is about ballistics, long-range shooting and related topics :-)
To all,
Take care when reloading, and shooting, and always remember to keep it safe, no matter what you do.
Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:41:00 (EDT)
I had drill this past weekend. Weapons qual on Saturday. Zeroed right off the bat (first three shots touching, centered in the head of the little 25-meter zero target), no problem. Adjusted sights for elevation, shot confirmation, moved over to the RETS range. Knocking them down, bang bang bang. Went up to the tower to check results. Found my name... scanned over to the right... "24." TWENTY FOUR?!!! OUT OF 40 SHOTS?!!! I asked, "Excuse me, is this the TOTAL score?" The guy said yes, it was. Uh huh. I said, "But this indicates I missed 16 times." He said, "Yes, sir." I said, "But you don't understand... I don't miss... SIXTEEN TIMES." He said "Sir, maybe you were firing onto the targets in the next lane. Now, resisting choking the living @#%!@#% out of this guy, because somewhere in the back of my mind, and I think in the UCMJ, it's some kind of punishable offense to MURDER AN NCO... I said, calmly, "No, I don't believe I did." I know this, because I verify my target on EVERY shot, to MAKE SURE it's in MY lane. Doesn't take a rocket scientist. Still, to humor this guy, I looked at lanes '9' and '11' (I was on '10'). The young lady on '9' scored zero hits. (Not surprising, in my 16-plus years of experience, considering only a few of us in the military take "marksmanship" seriously.) The guy on '11' had something like "five" hits. So, again, I indicated that I thought extremely little of the good sergeant's RETS computer, and left the tower. Now, here's the deal; this was a KD range with only three sets of targets being utilized for this exercise... 75 meters, 175 meters, and 300 meters. The 300-meter target in "my" lane was largely obscured by vegetation, so I missed all of them (about 6 presentations total). I missed "one" target at 175 meters, because sweat was in my eyes and I just blew the shot. So, if you're counting along with me, this is a total of SEVEN misses. I'd have still had my "expert." (Note: "Expert" is a big thing to me. Taylors "shoot." We don't do badminton, polo, "golf" (gag, puke, gnashing of teeth), cribbage, or water ski. We shoot. Dad was a Marine. HIS Dad was a WW I grunt, who shot well enough that, under fire, he took out a sniper who was trying to take HIM out... Grampa's words were that he "didn't like him dusting sand in my face." So, let me state, "shooting" is a big thing to the men in my family.) Therefore, I "MINIMALLY" qualified. Did I b***h? Hell no. Would have been noted as just some crybaby officer whining about his score. Did the soldierly thing, sucked it up and drove on.
Thing is... one of the safeties, a buddy of mine, had been standing behind me while I was shooting. On THREE occasions, he was joking (for my benefit) while I was shooting, "that's NIIIIIIICE shootin', Tex" -- because I was knocking targets down time after time after time. I told him what the RETS computer recorded, and he couldn't believe it either. No, it's not a matter of "too many holes in the targets" -- because if THAT was the case, they just wouldn't have gone down! Rather, they WERE going down, in MY lane... and the bloody !#%!@#%^# computer wasn't recording them as hits. SIXTEEN MISSES??? ON A POP-UP RANGE??? NO !#%!#% WAY!
However, there IS a God. My boss, COL Light, who "just happens to work at the Rock Island Arsenal" where I also work... knows the RETS manager in ACALA. Sooooo... I think my "displeasure" has been made known to the latter individual.
Hey, I'm "sure" the RETS is a fine, upstanding system -- WHEN IT WORKS!!! However, I wasn't too thrilled with the equipment on THAT day. And, being a staff puke now, I sure missed having some trainees around, like in "the good ol' days," to chew out to relieve some stress.
So Matt... how was YOUR weekend?
Anyone else got any $^!%#!#@ screwed-up weapons qualification stories?
Drop me an E-mail if you don't want to share them here.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:41:36 (EDT)
Sorry to hear about the computer malfunction on your range. The Marine Corps may still be in the "stone age" regarding some things but we like having live bodies pulling targets on the range. People still make mistakes but when they do you can have your coach or the range official call down to the "butts" and have them pull the target down and check it for a shot hole.
It doesn't always work out in your favor but at least you have someone
to blame!
Besides, it's good training that builds teamwork (2 people pulling
& scoring on each target) and you even get to hear what a round sounds
like passing over your head. FUN!
I hope they correct your score.
Brian Middleton <bmiddleton@sprynet.com>
Irvine, CA USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 03:46:17 (EDT)
Oberfeldwebel Erning, melde mich ab.
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 04:01:18 (EDT)
To Torsten: Is this the Oehler system (sound/scoring)? If so, I'm
familiar with it. Boy, you sure get to play with the neat stuff!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 04:59:48 (EDT)
Electronic targets.
Torsten, this is the reason why you have to use FMJ's.
The rubbermembrane on the targets lasts much longer with FMJ's. These bullets slices trough the rubber. HP-matchbullets cuts a small hole in the rubber. Huntingbullets are even worse.
The rubber membrane targets lasts ca. 8-10000 rounds FMJ's, 5-6000 rounds HP-match and down to 1000-1500 with large cal. huntingbullets.
The 3 mikrophones are usually mounted in the bottom of the targetframes and hidden from bulletpaths. The mikes have to be cleand from falling rubberparticles from time to time. You can also mount the mikes in the top of the frame but they are not bulletproof.
These targetsystems are standard on the major 2-300m ranges in the Norwegian army.
The best targetsystems come from Sius-Ascor in Switzerland.
www.sius.com (something for the linkspage?)
In large international matches Sius has live realtime scoring on
the net!
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 06:38:38 (EDT)
I'm currently working with Andrew on a .300 WinMag Rifle.
From our phone discussion, I'm quite impressed with this company.
PS, Andrew has quite a viewpoint on the Bausch & Lomb
Tactical scopes, any comments, or experiences?
Jeff Pack <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:06:29 (EDT)
It has been awhile since I have been able to access the site. Missed all the info and the exchange of information. Good to see the comments of Kodiac, Gooch, Rick, Sgt. G., Scott, Russ, etc.
I need to monitor the memberships response to a possible violation of protocol on my part. I received a private email admonishing me for my use of the term "girls" on my 30 June post to the duty roster. This individual (female, I presume), suggested I use the term "wannabe" as "girls" was more offensive than "chicks". I explained that the term "girls" is a time honored term of affectionate disparagement among male soldiers, especially soldiers in elite units. The term "wannabe" is an insult. I was not intending to insult anyone, and I did not intend to offend anyone's sensibilities, however I will accept the membership or the council's correction if I stepped over the line of political correctness.
This site is marked by collegial debate and respectful disagreement as well as the occasional rough humor that is consistent with the comraderie that most of us have known in the world of military and law enforcement activities. Now I am referring to the pre-coeducational military and law enforcement. If I am just too far removed generationally from the modern notions of political correctness, I'll sure stand down. I was just surprised that such an innocent comment could cause such distress. I will accept the findings of the membership or the council. It could be that I am not being sensitive enough.
James R. Jarrett, SSG
Team Leader
Project Delta (Det B-52)
5th Special Forces Group (Abn), 1st Special Forces
1965-1974
Director, American Shooting Academy
Professor, Criminal Justice, FHSU
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:13:38 (EDT)
Back to the shadows where I've been lurking .....
Alex(andra) M.
Chicago, USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:36:19 (EDT)
I was reading an article from 1993 which is online at the Atlantic
Monthly website. It is rabidly anti-gun. I engaged the author in the site's
public forum with logic and what I hope will be perceived as eloquence...we'll
see. My post was followed up by a few people, one of them is a real weenie.
He likes to get personal in order to belittle his opponent. I am optimistic
that some of you will read the article and follow the thread of conversation.
I will continue to argue that guns do have a rightful place in America's
civil culture and he will continue to argue that we are not smart enough
to be trusted with guns. I do not hope to convert him, only to provide
him with the opportunity to make an ass of himself in public while I remain
calm, rational and respectful. If any of you would wish to help out you
can type in "Atlantic Monthly" on your search engine field. The story (The
Story of a Gun, by Erik Larson) is under the Community and Society page.
Our comments are at the Post and Riposte page. Thank you for any help and
please don't blow your cool. We can keep this guy on the defensive with
a little thought and effort.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:50:36 (EDT)
Nice to hear from you again. And please, it is "James." I was tempted to make a similar remark, but I have enjoyed some of this person's significant other's comments and did not wish to be too aggressive in my reply. It may just be miscommunication. Thanks for your comment.
James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:54:20 (EDT)
Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 16:37:32 (EDT)
It's been a long time since I have contributed to this forum and even my own page has suffered from my lack of time. Things are going to change! First of all, I have got a couple of question to all of you.
1. On may 19th, someone said about the Ultimate Sniper Stock: "....The action still had to be bedded to fill the over 0.100 inches behind the recoil lug...."> Now I do see the point of having the recoil lug sit against the bedding, but how on earth do you find out wether it touches or not?
2. (Maybe something for you, Russ) I noticed the Sako TRG and the Savage 110FP having the same muzzle-diameter. I therefore am planning to mount the TRG's muzzlebrake, wich is available for about $100, onto my Savage. Does any of you have any experience with this.
3. Lapping the bore. I was thinking of lapping the bore of my new Savage 10FLP I'm expecting end of august. Due to the fact that I live in Europe and supply of specialised products to my continent is sparse, I was thinking of using the finest form of valve lapping paste, as used on car-valves. Good or bad idea?
Russ:
I read you mounted your Savage in an A2 stock. What finish-level
did you purchase and did you do the bedding yourself? I read bad things
about the exterior finish of the Mac-stock, though find those hard to believe,
cause McMillan has such a reputation. How about it?
Take care and thanks in advance for the answers!
Stefan
Stefan <sniper@tref.nl>
Netherlands - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 17:02:55 (EDT)
I understand and appreciate your comments. Nothing like a good horse race. My comments to Stacey in private email were a bit more pointed, but no disrespect was meant. I read your posts on the Atlantic Monthly bit. Good response. Larson is not an idiot and does make good points, but he misses the whole issue of accountability and liberty. Also, his use of statistical data is sleight of hand, and after five years (his article being 1993 vintage)the data is no longer relevant. How far is Ogden from Hays?
James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 17:04:46 (EDT)
Take care and Semper-Fi!
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
Merced, ca USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 17:07:24 (EDT)
I have a .308 and 300WM and was thinking about building a rifle on a M700 SA and chambering for 6.5mm/08 (or .260 rem.) I'll shoot 140gr match or VLD molyed bullets. Barrel will be no. 7 contour,1 in 8 twist, and finished at 26 inches. I've decided to try an Accumax II.
What kind of performance can I acheive in terms of velocity; how much range can I expect; barrel life- that sort of thing.
Does anyone have any suggestions about a good long range 6mm or 6.5mm cartridge.
I've just perused the Duty Roster and it is great. I'm not a sniper or military or anything but a guy who loves the idea of long range tactical and field shooting.
To everybody that's put time and energy into creating Sniper Country: Thank's for doing such a great job. Thanks for being here. Keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 18:22:23 (EDT)
I'm very interested in exterior ballistics and terminal performance and being a programmer I've decided to develop yet another exterior ballistics simulator, but unlike the ones I've seen so far this one will be a java based application that will run within the very familiar web browser you are using now. You won't have to download anything special or to install any software in order to use it. It will run on any java capable browser like Internet Explorer or Netscape Communicator.
Well the idea is to make a java application that would allow you to calculate things such as:
flight path
kinetic energy
recoil
angle compensation
wind drift compensation
terminal performance and penetration
multi-projectile comparison
I would distribute the application freely to anyone with a web site that deals in this subject matter.
This would be a great benefit to everyone out there that re-loads or has an interest in ballistics. As they would be able to use the application free of charge.
I've look for formulas on-line but so far everything that I've seen is very weak. I need solid formulas that take all possible variables into consideration.
I'm a programmer not a physicist. I can make an accurate application but I need to start with good solid formulas.
If anyone is interested in participating in this project please contact me at the e-mail address bellow.
Thanks you,
Benny Millares
design@waxcom.com
Benny Millares <design@waxcom.com>
Miami Beach, Fl USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 18:31:24 (EDT)
Fort Knox Basic Officers Training, 1994. I was issued one M-16 with
the 3 round burst option. Upon sighting in, it grouped well enough but
it got to where every single round would jam. I would have to go throught
the STARS or STARS or whatever it was the whole time while in the prone
position for each and every round, which did not do well for consistency.
Alas, they gave me another rifle.
Rifle #2 never did get properly sighted in. Why? How? Check this
out. The Drill SGT. turned my sights all the way in one direction, counted
the clicks, and then did the same thing for my new rifle!!!!!!!! Hell,
I thought, this is a fubar waiting to happen. I tried to explain to him
that that would not work but I was just a cadet, and he was the Drill SGT.
As it turns out, rifle #2 did the same things. So, on to rifle #3.
Rifle #3 was a disaster. We were actually into the process of qualifying
and I never could because my rifle was so out of tune, and Kentucky windage
(no pun intended) was not cutting it. I think I saw bullet strikes at 200
yards maybe 7-9 feet to the left and low several feet. Bad? Wait, it gets
better.
Everyone was getting anxious because I wasn't qualifying. No one
there, soldier or cadet, really understood about rifles and consistency
and sighting in, but I was just 18 so what did I know? (More than them!)
It was a letdown of the whole platoon. So, they tried to get me to practice
on the "Weaponeer" in which I would regularly zap a 300 yard simulated
target 12 out of 12 times. Head scratching abounded, but I was just a cadet
so what did my explanations mean? Back at barracks I SWEAR TO GOD they
set up a SUPER NINTENDO and hooked a dummy rifle to it and forced us to
practice on it!!!!!!!!!! Jeez!!!!!!!!!!! I SWEAR this is true!!!!! Our
military at work, I guess.
Qualification day. My rifle started off malfunctioning bad, and
it got worse. So, they took my rifle and pulled another one that was sitting
in reserve right off the line. No sighting in or anything, just qualify,
cadet.... I am firing and my rifle is !@#$$%^ up and this attracts the
attention of the Drill SGT. He is standing right behind me, thank God,
so is a witness to what happened. On another firing series I loaded my
weapon, pushed the bolt release and the damn thing went off as the bolt
slammed home!!! Finger was off the trigger, of course, SGT. was a witness.
Against my better judgement I commenced firing and it kept jamming, time
after time, and I swear that once it fired a two round burst. I had had
it. I started cursing and the Drill SGT. just told me to calm down. Didn't
get mad at me, but he did make some comment about that weapon should never
be allowed on this range. I wasn't going to put my face behind that damn
gun for another round, ass-chewing be damned. My point? I didn't qualify.
For anything. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
Sorry the post is so long but it still chaps my ass after a few
years.--------------------To everyone: I will get hired on the 31st and
Academy starts Aug 3rd. I passed my physical and MMPI, although I was called
in for some questioning about Naugas and such.....
Illigitemum non Carborundum and good shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 18:45:46 (EDT)
straight shooting!
Haraldur Gustafsson <hallig@austurland.is>
Egilsst., Iceland - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 19:23:02 (EDT)
If the little pamphlet in my expensive Firelapping brand kit is to be believed, our Dutch colleague would be advised not to use automotive valve grinding compound. However, the consensus here seems to be mixed on Firelapping. It may erode the throat unnecessarily or it may be good for the tool marks in the barrel. I followed the instructions on one of my rifles but haven't noticed any difference.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 20:37:32 (EDT)
D. West: Please read our article on the M21 and M25 systems in the Articles and Commentary section. Oh, and some publication recently ran an article on it. Don't recall where or who. . .
Jeff Pack: Andy Webber demands quality and clarity of the suppliers of optical components for his precision systems. I have both the Leupold M3 (on my M21/M25) and the B&L Tactical (on my AT1 M24). I wanted Leupold for the M24, but Andy insisted otherwise. I'm glad he did. The glass is very bright, noticeably more so than the Leupold. On the downside, the posts and reticle are thicker than with the Leupold, and the B&L has .25 MOA adjustments, whereas the Leupold has the BDC and .5 MOA windage. Check out our reviews of these scopes on "In Review." The B&L, I believe, is the better scope for an Armament Technology rifle. It will allow you to get more use out of your precision instrument. The Leupold is better with the semi-auto; not as accurate, but certainly faster to use.
To all: I just received from High Desert Holsters (courtesy of Mike Herd at Bradshaw Pistol Academy), an outstanding kydex holster for my 1911. Expect a review soon on this fabulous holster (priced far more reasonably than any other kydex holster I've seen to-date). Herd has one for his Glock. This may be one issue on which 9mm and .45 owners can agree!
Two more notes: 1) James Jarrett and his American Shooting Academy are holding a Field Training Exercise at the end of the month (7/30 - 8/1, I believe) in New Mexico. There will be more to follow on this, but it would appear that Jim Craig (Roster regular) and I might be heading down to the Land of Enchantment for this FTX. Hope to see some of you there! 2) Also, Dave Lauck's Small Arms Training Academy is holding a sniper competition with a separate event for Carlos Hathcock. Yes, the main competition is expensive. It's my understanding though that one can only shoot the Hathcock portion of the event. Please, make an effort to attend Lauck's event and participate in both the competition and Hathcock charity shoot.
Bain out.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 21:11:59 (EDT)
Which software is best?
I have been thinking of buying "Gun
Controller Macintosh" not just because I am a degenerate Mac user
(I have a PC too) but because the new version seems to be at least one
step ahead of everyone else... Also for the new version they now have the
Army Ballistic Research Lab's algorithms. It's not cheap but to me it looks
like the best one around. You can read their propaganda at http://www.shootingsoftware.com/gc.html
Any opinions on this or which other ballistics software is "best", please let me know...
Thanks guys! (and gals! Almost forgot to be pc....)
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 21:24:07 (EDT)
Mr. Bain - Hate the B&L, .25 moa is too small an increment for effect shooting. The Palma Team uses .5 moa adjustments because .25 is too small. .25 moa adjustments is zeroing adjustments within an inch (1/8 moa) at 800 yards. The M3A has 1 moa adjustments and that gets me within 4 inches at 800 yards (.5 moa). Let the fun begin!! On a lighter note, you had mentioned aquiring Brookfield mounts (This is for D. West as well) Creedmore Sports has three on hand at the ridiculus price of 299.98. Item number C1059. Try Brookfield direct at 137-A Quaboag Street, East Brookfield, Mass. The phone number I have is 10 years old but try 867-7714. The old zip was 617, that has changed I believe. Also have fun on the FTX. My guys just jumped in this evening and will move overland to a hit in the morning. They have their one round worth 100 course points.
Alex - Stay out of the d**n shadows and help these "girls" keep perspective in this testostrone driven world.
D. West - The M25 has been around for a while and DO read Mr. Bain's excellent article on the subject. I personnally would go with a bolt gun because M21/25s are just too dam fragile! Have fun Big Ed!! Stay away from the 30.06, it is an inefficent 308! Use short action 308 or long action 300. Or better yet go with one of the 6.5s. What range are you shooting?
Scott - The SEALS, in their ability too use more money than is necessary, use a mix of weapons. These include, but don't include all, the RAD M91, the McMillian, and a ROBAR variant. Becareful copying the SEALS. They have a tendency to go with way too many bells and whistles! We are fighting them now over that nonsense on the INOD.
Russ - Next time challenge the computer! You can "request" (read demand) a human coach/scorer, especially when you have a witness that supports your account. The computers have messed all the ranges up here at Bragg.
James - Shame on you, you insensitive clod!!!!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 23:27:40 (EDT)
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 23:38:37 (EDT)
To my good friend James: Be it known that we are NOT that "politically correct" around here, and soldierly terms such as "girls, ladies, maggots, dirtbags," and the like WILL be tolerated in reference to training discussions. Good grief.
To Stefan: In the matter of ANYTHING touching ANYTHING (concerning firearms components), "smoke it." Use a candle to smoke the area in question. This is what I'm doing to relieve the area that will need to be bedded in my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. Or, you could take the quick-and-easy way, and get some "sight black" spray (from Hoppe's or Outers, I can't recall at the moment). (Stuff comes off easily by just cleaning it off when you're done using it.) When you smoke (or spray) a part then install it, the areas that are rubbing will easily reveal themselves to you.
Threading is the only concern, once you've found a brake of the diameter you want. Beyond that, just make sure the design of the brake itself will compliment the type of shooting you'll be doing.
On lapping with valve-grinding compound -- generally speaking, I wouldn't recommend it, or at least not the ones "I" am thinking of. There are too many products specifically tailored for such projects. Follow instructions, especially if the abrasives are NOT "non-embedding." MAKE SURE YOU USE A "SOFT" SLUG TO DO THE LAPPING WITH -- DO NOT USE A HARD-CAST "SHOOTING" BULLET TO DO YOUR LAPPING WORK!!!
My McMillan A-2 Tactical stock came, as requested, with a black finish. Truly not a tactical choice, but I like "black" when it comes to clothes and firearms. Employment needs always dictate the type of camouflage anyway, which is why God created burlap and paint. My gunsmith pillar/glass bedded the action. I have personally never heard any complaints about McMillan's stocks and have experienced none myself -- my only complaint with McMillan is their "occasional" lengthy delay in shipping what is ordered.
To Jeff A: Thanks for the kind words.
To Nathan: Good story. And... I believe EVERY word you wrote! I've tried to do what "I" can to change "views" on marksmanship training in the Army -- but I'm a lowly captain and no one listens to me. Sadly, when "nonshooters" are running things, or when "sort-of shooters" are involved, stories such as yours are the norm. It's sad. It's pathetic, actually.
To Dave:
I don't know about "best," but you can read my review of Load From a Disk for Windows. It's a nice package, will figure charges for wildcats that don't even exist (in case you want to see "what if"), and has some slick features that I haven't run across in shareware versions to date. However, for shareware, I prefer PCB (Personal Computer Ballistics), available via this website.
To Rick: Thanks, VERY much, for the advice. I will remember it. Glad to hear that I'm not the only one this has happened to -- thanks for sharing.
To Rich: You echo my sentiments on "things Ruger." There's a lot of things going on in the gun control arena, many of which (as a dealer) I see will affect you and (especially) me. I try to keep the politics off of here, for the most part, but... guys, we REALLY need to be doing our own Internet searches and send some FAXes and E-mails. That's all I'll say on the matter, except to remind you that "snipers and sniper rifles and OPTICS are evil, evil, EVIL things" -- just ask any parent with a kid in school... they're the experts, right? (sarcasm)
In general: I was floored to learn of COL Applegate's demise. Truly
a legend in our time, sometimes controversial, always interesting. He'll
be missed.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 03:25:03 (EDT)
6.5-08 is a very good choice for a Rem700SA. Casecapasity is almost identical with 6.5X55. Reduced 6.5X55-data can be used as startingloads for 6.5-08.
Differences in internal dimentions of 6.5mm barrels makes pressure and velocitycomparisons difficult. US barrels are tighter than eurobarrels. I've seen a 2600fps/lopressure-load in a eurobarrel do almost 2800fps in a US-stainless steel barrel with flattend primers. ( exception to the rule: Carl Walther-barrels for Krags are tighter than US-barrels. BE CAREFUL!!!) These factors vary more than the difference in casecapasity between the -08 and X55 case. US-barrels with tighter grooves has better barrellife than eurobarrels.
These 6.5mm rounds has the ability to duplicate the trajectories and winddrifttables of a .300winmag with the advantage of much better barrlellife.
130-140gr molycoated bullets at 2600-2650fps should give a barrellife of at least 8000 rounds in a US-SS barrel. The most popular powders for this performance are in the VV N160/RL19 class.
For longrange target and sniping Norma MRP/Alliant RL22 is THE POWDER for highspeed loads in 6.5X55.
Max. load for a 140gr bullet is usually 49gr MRP/RL22 giving 2750-2800fps. Not bad with BC's in the .630-class with Berger or Lapua bullets.
Norma has a 130gr VLD molycoated bullet with BC ca. .570 ( can't remember exactly), roughly the same as Sierra .30cal, 190gr MK. A friend pushed this bullet to 3050fps with 51gr MRP in a 6.5X55 with a 24" SS Douglas barrel without any sign of high pressure.
Using these highspeed loads you're looking at a barrellife of 4-5000 rounds with matchgrade accuracy.
THESE LOADS MUST NOT BE USED IN KRAGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have no experience with 6mm longrange rounds. The 6mm BR with 105-107gr
VLD's loaded to ca. 2800fps in 1-8" twist barrels has been cleaning up
in the 300m UIT-shooting. Very efficient. Should give extended ballellife
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 04:40:57 (EDT)
Next subject: Night vision optics. Who's got them (of you folks)
and what's the consensus on what's available (ITT and the Russian imports)?
In the vein of "Who owns the night?", I'd like to bring attention to the
fact that very few shooters seem to give serious consideration to low-light
operations. In keeping with what I was taught at the armor school at FT
Knox, KY, which is "what can be seen can be hit -- what can be hit can
be killed"... if you CAN'T see it, you WON'T kill it. Comments? Recommendations?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 05:29:48 (EDT)
See the writeups here on the M-21/25 diffs, Bain puts out a good article!
BTW Ricky, I'm gonna, GASP, get a bolt gun!!!!! Ok, I've said it, now I'm gonna do it. Gunny Rayfield is gonna build one up on the Rem 700PSS for me, now I've got to scope it.....
Bain: What rings and scope did you recommend to me????
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 08:25:53 (EDT)
Sgt. Benton did some serious mental work, observed the next dirt impact, said "FIDO!" and switched to using the protective ear of the front sight houseing as a front sight post. By aiming low, and using the rabbit ear, he was still able to nail 28 out of 40. He was pretty pissed as his qualification level dropped a notch, but the rifle went back to have its barrel recentered and served him well thereafter. His barrel was litterally canted over to the side!
By the way, Dan got his revenge. He made damn sure he was to MY left next time we qualified!
Any of you folks ever shoot a qual at Benning, watch out for Black
Widows. During Basic, I came with in a half inch of putting my hand on
one while waiting to shoot. That would do nothing positive for your skill
level and consentration!
Scott Powers
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 09:25:42 (EDT)
Ende
Torsten
Germany - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 10:02:29 (EDT)
P.S.: How about a little support fire onto the Atlantic Monthly objective.
Thanks again!
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 10:47:53 (EDT)
Nathan (New "Boot" Police Officer). Some unasked for advice from the "old school". I served as an LAPD patrol officer immediately upon my return from Viet Nam. I worked SWAT, mounted, and subversive intelligence. Since that time I have worked for state, county, and federal agencies and have watched law enforcement, like the military deteriorate in quality of personnel, and commensurately in their performance. You have chosen to enter an honorable craft -- it is NOT a profession. It is a craft requiring immense skill variance, judgement, intelligence, honor, courage, and integrity. Just as soldiers. To avoid overusing space on this site, I will offer you a couple of pieces of advice that I tried to impress on all of my "boots" as a training officer: 1)Your first duty is to "defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, both foreign and domestic, and to obey the LAWFUL orders of your superiors." (emphasis added). 2) The safety of citizens (as opposed to civilians) is first -- not your safety -- theirs; and that safety must include safety from your abuse of police power. 3) No career, retirement, or benefits are worth sacrificing or compromising in any way your honor or integrity in the performance of your duties.
"Hook 'em and book 'em" lad. Good luck. Be kind. Stay safe. Shoot straight. Speak the truth!
Some of the other LE types on here may disagree with the following
advice Nathan. Leave that silly ass ASP in the car along with the PR-24.
Go with a Koga 29" Straight Baton, and learn how to use the Koga Method.
I have studied with Bob Koga since he was my defensive tactics instructior
with the LAPD and I can attest to the effectiveness of the straight baton
from many encounters and uses while I have witnessed the frequent failure
of ASPs and PR-24s -- and straight batons as well. It comes down to training.
There ain't no magic bullets out there. Policing, in its attempt to be
"inclusive" and "diverse" has made the job more hazardous and less efficient
for the street officer. But, it is your time in the mouth of the cat. Go
forth prepared.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 11:35:35 (EDT)
I reviewed the Atlantic Monthly article by Larson (1993)and I think it is moot. The data has changed since his statistical sleight of hand (the use of raw numbers as opposed to rates)and he did not mention the use of advanced statistical methods such as stepwise regression or eigen values to account for the impact of other variables on the victimization by firearms. (Once a professor, always a professor :))
I did post a rather lengthy response yesterday in support of your thoughtful arguments, but some glitch occured and it disappeared into cyberspace and I just didn't want to reenter my comments. If you really feel it would help, I'll drop some H&I fire in there for you.
Interesting research by Grossman, et al concludes that anywhere television has been introduced, the homicide rate doubles within fifteen years.
Conversely, the homicide rate within the US has remained stable over
the entire 20th century even as the supply of guns has dramatically increased.
As you mentioned, we're talking about values. The progressive (liberal)
only has rhetorical values without a solid grounding in the first principles
set forth in antiquity. Feminism is a classic example of faulty scholarship,
and values misinterpreted for agendas which do not contribute towards the
peaceful and harmonious coexistance of humankind. The blame placed by statists
on the inherent evil of inanimate objects merely supports their contention
that given their values or lack thereof, human beings cannot be held accountable
for their individual actions. With this recognition of the ideological
abyss which separates us from them, there will be no rational debate, rather
propaganda and psychological war for the "hearts and minds" of a people
generally too concerned with nonissues or personal pleasure to concern
themselves with such notions as liberty and principle.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 11:56:06 (EDT)
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 13:23:54 (EDT)
Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 13:35:00 (EDT)
Absolutely submit something. Believe me, your English is better than my German. Shoe them that freedom is also understood and alive in countries believed by the average comotose American to be comprised of weak socialist statists. Exactly what the Barbara Boxer's, Feinsteins, Kennedy's, Gore's, and Clintonistas, ad nauseum in this country would like to have us believe.
Paul: I'll take another run at the Atlantic. Hope your wife's not
mad at me. Rick called me an "insensitive clod." What a compliment!! OOrah!!
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 14:03:24 (EDT)
Rick: thanks for the tip on the 300 win mag barrel. Good input for how much I invest per barrel.
Gooch: I'll email you the job contacts. FWI: job hunting over 40 s***s. Have go for a nitch the college kids haven't found yet.
Russ on eye protection: YES YES YES...boy I got religion 2 weekends
ago. I was target shooting with a buddy. He bought 1,000 of Israli surplus
.308. only 40%? of the ammo was even detonating...what did fire was all
over the target. he is normally very good. He was using a Rem 700 varmit.
after he fired 1 round he turned to me and asked if he was ok. He had his
glasses on (thank God)....he looked like he was sweating blood from nose/lips/cheeks/chin.
the round exploded in the receiver...split the case from neck to primer....I
MEAN SPLIT. all the hot gasses and case fragments came back out the bolt
past the firing pin assembly and caught him full in the face.
1.) WEAR EYE PROTECTION
2.)If you do buy mil surplus ammo...I'd disassemble the rounds...deprime
and dump the powder...reload with new primers and new powder.
Butch: I have the same tactical scope on my 700 pss....I love it! That mildot works great.
Jim Craig: I was in Africa once....those buffalo are MEAN.
You have guts drawing on one of those.
Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 14:04:15 (EDT)
Fire mission accomplished!
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 14:49:06 (EDT)
Eye protection is really a good idea! When General Hatcher studied
blown-up '03 rifles, he determined that most of the injuries to the shooters
were slinters and the like to the hands and face, and that eye protection
would have prevented the eye injuries which otherwise were the most serious.
When I got my last set of glasses (I'm a bit nearsighted) I requested
and got an anti-reflection coating on the (polycarbonate) lenses. I had
to ask; my eye doc had never mentioned that this option was available.
The coating is subject to scratching so I keep that pair set aside most
of the time as my "tactical" glasses.
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 15:02:15 (EDT)
Your so right about the Koga method. I was a DT instructor when I
was a State Trooper and that is what we tought, until the powers to be
decided we needed a kinder and more humane method. We then went to the
Lamb method which was not to bad but not nearly as effective as the Koga
method. I also liked your comments to the "New Guy" you sound like someone
I would have liked to have for a partner.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 16:11:06 (EDT)
If you are interested in 6.5mm-08 perhaps you may want to consider 6.5mm-06.I believe it will fit the Rem 700 SA,but you'll have to check that out from your gunsmith.
My advise to you is to listen to what TorF,Torsten and Hexa have to say regarding 6.5mm combinations.These European gentelmen seem to really know their stuff about the 6.5mm.
By the way,a friend of mine recently built a 6.5mm-06 on a M98 action with a thumbhole sporter stock.He spent around $400 on the whole gun and the rifle is an absolute tack driver.He is averaging .5 inch groups using Lapua 140 gr. bullets.I believe he told me his speeds were in the 3100-3200 fps. range.
Has anyone out there tried Hornady's AMAX 6.5mm bullets yet? If so what results did you get?I'd like to try some out in my 6.5mm x 55mm but would like to hear what others have to report first.
I'm also curious why Andrew Webber doesn't contribute to articles or here on the Roster? His name and company come up quite frequently here in the Roster but yet we never hear anything from him.I know Andy from shooting at some of the local rifle ranges here in Nova Scotia and can tell you that his experience in shooting could bennefit those who visit this web site.
So Andrew, if you're out there in Cyber space checking out this page why not jump in and give us some of your observations on the matters discussed here on the Roster ?
Thanks.
Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 17:05:52 (EDT)
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 17:13:34 (EDT)
I have noticed that people that have an agenda like gun control (esp from that state below where I live) do not care about any facts (like exactly how many robberies have happened with assault rifles?).....THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND GUNS...DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND GUNS....ARE AFRAID OF GUNS....AND WANT ALL GUNS CONFISCATED. They are fellow human beings and contribute to society, but you will never understand them...they will never understand you. And that's as good as it gets. All you can do is vote and teach your children. You can't use arguements like "ok...you want to ban assault rifles....fine....lets also ban Lamborghinnis and AC Cobras...no one needs to go 180+mph and cars kill more people that guns do in this country". They just want us to give up our guns. (even if some have armed body guards)
Alex your comments were enlightening. I had to take a "valuing differences"
course once. All big companies start programs like this to demonstrate
that they are trying to do the right thing to stop sexual harassment. There
were all types in the class. Some of the women would get mad at any insinuation
(per their interpretation) that any man made about the differences between
the sexes. Other women had very thick skins and told the feminists to take
a chill.
I finally asked the instructor: "so how are we supposed to have
meetings if we have to think about every word we say are we supposed to
constantly walk on eggshells"
The answer was vague.
Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 17:42:08 (EDT)
To Rick: I'll keep lurking. Testosterone is in way short supply where I am, so the more the better. Why do you think I visit this page, anyway??
To Jon Manley: Ah -- and that is the problem, isn't it? Eventually, nobody will be able to say anything without offending some interest group or other. So unless you stand your ground, you'll end up permanently cowering in a corner somewhere. Whenever someone gets uppity with me about political correctness issues I refer them to some old-fashioned advice: as Mr. Justice Holmes has written, "Even a dog knows the difference between being tripped over and being kicked." Thus, we as rational human beings ought to be able to discern when someone deliberately intends to offend (at which point one may feel free to reprimand them) or, as more often happens, when someone merely has a different perspective. It was quite clear to me that James meant no offense. Therefore, I felt it was stupid and pointless to persecute him. Unfortunately, this is not the prevailing view in today's society.......
Back to the shadows .......
Alex(andra) M.
Chicago, USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 18:33:04 (EDT)
James: We've got them on the run now. I'm recruiting support from
some other "smart guys". Don't stop now...
Sincerely,
The Original Insensitive Clod <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 19:07:05 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 19:26:02 (EDT)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 20:02:39 (EDT)
I plan to machine the internal cross webbing of the stock out from just in front of the fore action bolt and place an alloy bar 1/4" thick and the width of the stock in with fibreglass to stiffen the foreend, if anybody has a better idea (apart from a whole new stock) please suggest it.
The other question is how do I bed the rifle action into the stock, what materials do I use, will the bedding "glue" the action into the stock, or in any case is it inadvisable to do so to a Savage stock?
PS. Thankyou to those who ended the .45 v 9mm v 40mm Grenade Launcher
debate.
Dave Groves <David.Groves@dao.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 21:44:54 (EDT)
straight shooting!!
Haraldur Gustafsson <hallig@austurland.is>
Iceland - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 22:59:43 (EDT)
If you had the older "no pillar" version of the Savage stock, I'd tell you NOT to bother glass bedding the thing. It is essentially a hollow shell of a stock, which would require gallons and gallons (only a "slight" exaggeration) of bedding compound to do any good.
However... with the newer models, you have "some" hope, if you're intent on "improving" versus "replacing." Use a 'D' cell battery and a piece of heavy-grit sandpaper ('60' would do the work in very short order) and stroke along the barrel channel until you get the desired amount of relief between barrel and stock.
As for bedding compound, well, I tend to shoot "heavy" stuff, so bedding is VERY important to me. I like the ACRA-GLAS that Brownells sells... and I prefer the gel version, WITH stainless steel added for strength. Also, many shooters prefer Devcon. (It's either Devcon, or something else that is used, that you will find in marine -- as in "water," not leatherneck -- stores. "Devcon" IS the name of one product, though... I just can't remember if it's the marine product I'm thinking of.) Ask around, talk to your gunsmith. Otherwise, if your labor and work is going to tally up to about $200 or more, you might as well spring for a McMillan A-2 Tactical stock -- which you'll still want to "bed."
As long as it's the newer stock version, you have some options before you need to worry about replacing the stock. And, my 110FV in .223 Remington, with the older stock, and NOTHING done to it, has nailed prairie dogs at 550 yards (with my handloads). And the barrel is NOT free-floated. Go figure.
To Haraldur: You're quite right -- without guns handy, people find
all SORTS of other things to kill with... hands, screwdrivers, pliers,
hatchets, BAYONET LUGS....
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 01:57:29 (EDT)
Torsten - I have learned a great deal from your commentary. Please don't concern yourself with your use of English. Hell I wish I could speak German as good as you speak English!
See Ya Downrange
BRENT <brenting@juno.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 06:30:16 (EDT)
AL
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 07:29:49 (EDT)
On your question of the 30-06 over a 308, I have two 308s. One with
a 25" Hart barrel and one with a 24" Schneider barrel. Both these rifles
are shooting 168 sierras
at 2800 to 2850fps. Iam useing 45gr. of Varget in both LC-90 match
and Lapua cases. I have a new 3.5X10 Lepuold long range with the BC cams
and I use the one for a 30-06 with a 180gr. bullet,enough said, no advantage
to an 06. Hope this helps.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 09:29:25 (EDT)
Rick: The .308 v 30-06 smacks of the 9mm v 45 debate, but is more
appropriate for this page. Personally I do not believe you have any advantage
in the 30-06 until you choose to shoot bullets in excess of 200 grains.
For your tactical rifle, the .308 is probably the better choice. If you
wish your bullets to remain stable to 1000 yards, just be sure to acquire
a barrel with a twist rate appropriate to the 175 grain bullet. The 168
MKs will serve you well, but odd things happen out around 700-900 yards
depending on atmospheric conditions. They can fly quite straight, but generally
drop below the speed of sound at that range. The 175 MK should stay super
sonic right to 1000 yards and beyond. This eliminates one variable (transonic
instaiblity or what ever you want to call it) that causes flyers at those
ranges. Going to an -06 will not really net you any advantage, and has
some small disadvantages: more empty space in case, harder to find brass,
more powder for a marginal increase in velocity, expensive brass, and possibly
a less than optimum case design (arguable). The .308 case is said to create
better internal ballistics, but I'd be hard pressed to prove it to you,
as I do not completley understand the effects of the shoulder angle, powder
column burn et cetera. At any rate, you can not go wrong with a quality
.308 barrel. The is perfectly capable of getting you to 1000 yards with
out the beating one excepts from the .300 WM.
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 15:01:10 (EDT)
Right, it is Emporium cleanup time again.
==============
Posted by Jeff A. on July 05, 1998 at 00:10:59:
I'm thinking of building a tactical style boltgun chambered for either a 6mmBR or 6.5mm08. I have an HS Precision stock devcon bedded for M700 SA. Am considering getting a secondhand M700 SA or M70 action w/ .308 boltface, having it trued, lapped etc. and installing a barrel to fit one of the above cartridges.
I would welcome any advice on how to preceed i.e. barrel twist for 140 gr bullet (Berger or Sierra); barrell lenght, barrel contour etc.
I'm new to this so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeff A. "Preying Mantis"
And the following follow-ups were posted:
Posted by Sean on July 16, 1998 at 09:58:05:
I would just like to know if anyone has been to Thunder Ridge sniper
school before and how hard is it to get selected for a course.Also I would
like to know approx.price for a course and how I can apply and when I can
apply.
Thanx.
==============
That's all for now.
Many thanks for all the input on the 6.5mm !!! It was close to sensory overload. And sensory overload can be great fun. Really, I do appreciate it.
Anybody out there have any experience w/ 6.5mm/284? Velocities, optimum barrel lenght, loads-stuff like that?
I noticed some reference to lapping and fire lapping in the Roster. I tried fire lapping recently on a M700 PSS in 300WM on the factory barrel. Just the standard sequence w/ the lapping cpds. I do believe it worked. Don't have a borescope so I stuck a Qtip approx. 1/4 to 1/2 inch in the muzzle under a light. It looked like a mirror. Cleaning time is greatly reduced and so far I've found three loads that hold 1/2 MOA out to 300 yd: 70.0 gr N560 behind a molyed Berger 190 VLD-very nice; 74gr IMR 7828 using a Berger 210VLD- a little more "thump" but on the money; Sierra 190 MK on 69.5gr N160. The Bergers just touch the lans; the Sierras 0.010" off. All excellent " squirrel " loads. I need more range for testing.
Russell Taylor: Sir, you're more than welcome.
Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 19:55:55 (EDT)
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Somewhere in the South, USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 20:57:35 (EDT)
Pat, and Scott - I'm not really sure I understand your posts. I didn't ask anything on the 308 vs 30.06.
Torsten - Used the IR Chem Lites in El Sal in 1982. They work quite well. Since the "people's army", who decided I was a war criminal, didn't have NVDs, they never knew what hit them or how. I never did figure out how they got my middle name to put on the death warrant.
As far as NVDs go, try just the day optics in most situations. You may be pleasantly surprised. I have used the M3A until well past EENT on clear nights, and even slight artificial illumination is well enhanced by most modern optic. This solution also negates the problem of flare caused by over powering light at night. As far as best NVDs, you get what you pay for, but if you can live with the Russian stuff, it is better than nothing. ITT, Night Vision Labs, SIMRAD, and Litton, all make excellent NVDs. However you will pay through the nose. The newest SIMRAD costs about 6000 dollars. That's several realy good rifles!! If you do get a clip on as the SIMRAD, then be sure you have a variable scope. 10x overpowers the Phosphrous Matrix in the clip ons and causes blurring. Positive ID is next to impossible. Go to 6 - 8 power and you can ID out to about 150.
For the next points of thought - Assuming both are equally trained,
should the shooter or the spotter be the "experienced" sniper, and should
you dial wind or "hold" for wind? This should be fun. Gooch where are you
when I need you?
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 21:13:41 (EDT)
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anything, but an SR-25 or a Savage, USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at
21:35:08 (EDT)
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Roswell, NM USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 01:52:55 (EDT)
To Mr. Bain: The gunsmiths of America thank you... and those like you.
To Sarge: Mr. Bain has the mil-dot article that was very briefly
posted here a while back. He said he'd clean it up and repost it. Drop
him a line to remind him. It's a good piece. As I recall, Rick Bowcher
wrote it (following which I scrubbed it ruthlessly, as editors-in-chief
always do), I posted it, and Mr. Bain wanted to modify it in some way.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 03:03:43 (EDT)
Massed the battalion on the A/M site this morning. Battalion, 6 rds,
DPICM. We're getting inside his OODA loop now, boys! (I think the Army
calls it something different, but you get my point.)
Matt
GA USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 11:27:01 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 14:57:33 (EDT)
Bain: VERY FUNNY!!!!!! :-)
Russell: You are an EVIL man!!!!!!
All: My gunsmith loves me for who I am, not for the work I bring him! :-)
Out here
Big Ed <draider6@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 15:33:27 (EDT)
Bill - Me thinks you were reading into a question asked, not a statement made. No one, to my knowledge, stated they were equal rounds. They most definitly are not equal. Each has strengths and weaknesses similar to all the other rounds you mentioned. But that is what keeps ammunition manufacturers in business.
Sarge - The program is excellent, but you take your chances. All the weapons that I have seen are fully functional and accurate enough for basic service rifle comp. Some show little to no wear, some have a lot of cosmetic problems but still shoot well.
Mr. Bain - You already use bolt guns, you're half way there!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 16:59:10 (EDT)
Sorry if this is away from sniping, but I figured it had to do with the ‘trade’.
Butch <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
N'awlins, LA USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 21:09:14 (EDT)
Butch: I'll let them know. I'm sure it would work but I'm not sure
the Army will let them drill holes in the base plates. It's definitely
superior to what we've got now.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 06:20:03 (EDT)
Out here
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 08:13:35 (EDT)
Out again
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 08:15:53 (EDT)
If so, who wins, given uniformity of calibers, etc.?
Scott
USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 14:00:24 (EDT)
Alex, how can testostrone be in short supply in Chicago? Inquiring minds want to know. Actually just this dirty old man.
Al Hackem - That's a mighty "large order" on your request. Can you narrow down your question on sniping, ie weapons, optics, range estimation, effects of the environment, selecting lines of stalk, stalking, ballistics and their effects on calculating a first round hit probability, mission planning, employment, deployment.... Guess I beat that one up enough. Email me and let me know what areas you are interested in and I'll see what I can do.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 17:45:10 (EDT)
To Russell, Scott and Brent, Thanks for the tips on how to open up the stock, I will sand it out till I have 1/8" clearance all round.
Dave.
Dave Groves <David.Groves@dao.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 19:45:50 (EDT)
You are the type of individual who tries to force your misguided ideas and beliefs on other people by means such as print, mass media,and the courts. The name for you and your type is "Captains of the World", trying to control all facets of another person;s life. Please realize that there are intelligent, free thinking people out there, who may not agree or believe in your agenda. I HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THEM! I am a rational individual and do not nee to be told what to think. I live by my own set of beliefs and guildlines.
So, do us a favor and go back to your liberal web pages and banter
us gun users around with your liberal-thinking, closed-minded "politically
correct allies. I'm sure there are plenty out there. We do not need your
viditations or your comments. So what do you say, al you "Captains of the
World"? Try telling each other what to do, if any of you will listen to
each other.
Alexander Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mad in Mantua, Ohio USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 20:07:50 (EDT)
Police and military snipers are the best in their field. If you think they are on the edge, or a time bomb waiting to happen, you have been watching too much TV (the same place you get all of your liberal ideas). Snipers are dedicated professionals who are "the best in the world." Ther are very, very few people who can make a claim like this in any undertaking they attempt. "BEST IN THE WORLD!" These people are the ones who maintain a cold composure when a terror stricken child is help hostage, or a crying wailing woman is begging for her life, or protecting the President of the United States.
You mease what a sniper (or anyone who carries a firearm) does as
the destruction of life, killing of a human being. BUt try looking at this
from a different perspective. Now, I know this may be difficult for you
to do. Consider the innocent lives which are spared, the reunited families
that can go on together; because the act of a true professional. The person
who saved their life is - "the Best in the World, and I'm damn proud to
associate with such people.
Alexander Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mad in Mantua II, Ohio USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 20:17:25 (EDT)
Thanks for the comeback on the military sniper comps.
On that subject, do these comps, especially ones that may mix military scouts and civilian LE shooters, become basically target practice, or do the participants get to do some sneaks with g suits.
I'm inclined to think LE snipers may be at a disadvantage regarding doing really open sneaks, unless they were military trained in a previous life. Is this the case or no?
Scott
USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 20:24:39 (EDT)
I do suggest you read the previous post in the Sniper country articles on the mil-dot. Next, go to a known distance range and set out some known dimension targets. Get some that replicate a man or half a man and a head for example. Then simply get familiar with what the target and your dots look like viewed together. It takes some expeerience measuring the number of dots or fractions of a dot. Once you can do that, then you can use the formula to get range. target size( in yds or meters, or a fraction of them) times 1,000 divided by the number of mil-dots will equal the range. Practice getting that measurment then use the data to dial in your elevation. Keep a log and see how well your "ranging" works out. For movers, I use as a rule of thumb, 2 mil-dots windage for a walker and 3 for a jogger at about any range.
James- Have we ever met? you B-52, me B-36. I too am Koga certified. We worked out at the Japanese school on Mott St. in Boyle Heights above Little Toyko. I taught Kenjitsu at the old Chuo Gakkuen there.I agree on the use of the straight stick. It is much more versatile and doesn't limit your choices of tactic.
back into the light
Jim Craig
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 22:09:06 (EDT)
Rick: On your question about holds - I'll bite! My own view is that IF you have TIME, ALWAYS dial in scope dope. Having done quite a bit of "hold" shooting or "kentucky" windage over the years, I have found that connecting on the first shot is sometimes marginal. That is not to say that it doesn't work, but I found that my shot to hit ratio went up dramatically simply by dialing in the range and wind. Once you have plotted several Target Reference Points, adjusting dope for a target based on its relationship to these plotted points is easy. On the other hand, if the target is moving right from the start and he or it has not appeared near a pre-designated TRP, I guess a hold is the only option.
I liked your question a lot as it comes up quite often among long rang shooters. Some use a 100 yard zero and dial up. Others I know use a 600 yard zero and never touch the scope, utilizing hold for everything. As in everything, how you train seems to settle the issue at a dead draw. Those shooters using a 600 or 700 yard zero seem just as effective as those using a BDC. This is assuming they practice enough.
On the subject of who should shoot among two equally skilled men
or women. If you are refering to a sniper observer team, Trade off after
an hour or two. Keeps everyone fresh. Avoids eye strain. If you are refering
to two cops, spaced apart in equally good hides with equally good view
of the perp, both on their own rifles, things become more complicated.
In the end I guess it wouldn't matter as they are both skilled. I suppose
they'd have to work it out prior to the op. Lets hear your ideas! I am
sure they will be enlightening! How about you Gooch? You back from playing
up North? Weigh in here.
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 08:08:21 (EDT)
Sorry for the missed post!! I had read your post and had forgot you were answering not asking. We had better be careful or we could start another 9mm-45 debate. I also agree that the 06 is a great round and with a heaver bullet it would have the edge over a 308. I was trying to say that with the new powders out there you can reach 06 velocity with the 308. (With the lighter bullets)
Jim,
I would love to set down with you and have you explain the Mil-Dot
system to me when I get to the shoot in Wyoming, if you have the time.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 09:43:17 (EDT)
The .308 seems to present several advantages over the .30-06. The '06 offers some advantages of its own over the .308... Both are good cartridges. I like the '06 and think it's cool and accurate and so on, but I still think the body of evidence that is out there gives the edge to the .308. Let me again remind you that this does NOT mean I am saying that the .30-06 is inaccurate or that .30-06 owners shoot like Democrats or anything.
Now if you have reasons why the .30-06 is a better choice for snipers than the .308, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons.
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 15:06:19 (EDT)
1) Anyone have any experience with the D2 Stalker Ghillie Suit?
thankyou.
Jeff P. <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 15:08:48 (EDT)
(( Editor-in-Chief's Note: Jeff's second question has been removed. This isn't a matter of "free speech," it's a matter of potentially releasing classified information via this website. )) Date/Time: 20 Jul 98/1931 hours.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 16:12:48 (EDT)
Bill, Dave, Kodiak - I've used both 308 and 30.06 for sniping. I'll keep the 308. It has NOTHING to do with accuracy or the round or any other mythical nonsense. The 308 will cover the area I need covered with a lighter round using less powder for the same velocity. I'm not putting 190 gr whiz bangs out at 3000 feet per second. Some seem to forget that many rounds LOSE accuracy when shot too fast. I am interested in minimizing muzzel signature, and the 30.06 has a greater muzzel signature. This is the same reason we do not use muzzel brakes and "flash hiders". The night signature with a flash suppressor is unbelievable when seen through NVDs. If I need greater range then I will go to a 300 Win Mag pushing a 190 at 2900 fps. Again muzzel signature is important. Another consideration is that the increased powder of a 30.06 causes an increase in felt recoil, and when you are shooting about 100 rounds a day at targets that do not permit a full seating of the butt in the shoulder, ie head shots 200 meters, 3 second exposure over a seven meter front, that recoil difference will eat you up and your accuracy goes to hell in a hand basket. As stated earlier, each has strengths and weaknesses. Match the tool to the work.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 16:55:47 (EDT)
Hello! I guess that everyone has forgotten that the US Armed Forces
switched to .308 from 30-06 mainly because it was NATO standard, not due
to accuracy. Now that the armed forces are using it everyone seems to think
it is the best, this is not necessarily so.
PS: I don't shoot either so I give a fair and impartial comment.
Jeff Cooper <LoFlyin@aol.com>
Elvis, tn USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 22:00:37 (EDT)
straight shooting!!
Haraldur Gustafsson <hallig@austurland.is>
Iceland - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 23:49:22 (EDT)
To all: Does anyone (Torsten, Thor?) know of a company in Europe that does the Cryo job? Would be cool! (yes I know, pun intended...) What's involved in the Cryo treatment? Is it merely cooling the barrel to -300 and getting it back up, or is there more to this kind of stress relief?
Okay, now for the good one! Someone just GAVE me 1 Lb. (as in one pound) of fine grade Moly !!!!!! (Sorry guys, I just had to tell you this was for free!!! ) Now, of course, I am only to eager to get it on my bullets, question is, HOW? I read a lot of info here, but nobody says how and when to use what for what reason. Let's have the full instructions! Questions I'd like to see answered are: do I use some sort of adhesive (wax etc.), how long should I tumble, how much moly do I use for 100 bullets, what media in what quantitiy should do the job and so forth... Whatever way you answer, through this roster or my e-mail, just know that I'm listening!
OH, BY THE WAY, I THINK THE EXPERIENCED ONE SHOULD BE THE SPOTTER AND YOU SHOULD DIAL FOR WIND IF THE SITUATION ALLOWS IT! LET THE GAMES BEGIN! (Happy Russ?)
L8er, guys!
Stefan <sniper@tref.nl>
Here, There The Netherlands - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 00:30:18 (EDT)
YES! "Match the gun to the work." I'm OFTEN asked "Gee whiz, gosh,
Russ... how many guns do you have?" Then I "try" to go through the inventory.
Then they INVARIABLY ask "Why do you need so 'many' guns???" After attempting
to suppress the urge to strangle them... I explain that each gun I have
has a specific purpose. For example... the 110FP Tactical is for "up to"
600-yard surgical work; the .416 Remington Magnum is for taking down anything
on the face of the planet; the .338/378 Weatherby Magnum will be for 1500-yard
work; the Mossberg 590 Persuader is for unwanted guests; the sporterized
Enfield #4 Mk 1 is for deer hunting; and so on and so forth. I don't have
anything that duplicates the purpose intended by something else I own.
I'm always asked "What's the best rifle for...?" and I ask right back at
them "What are you going to use it for?", along with questions about if
they intend to handload, use optics, shoot it a lot per session or just
"now and then," and other such questions. Bottomline, Rick, as you've said
-- match the gun to the task at hand.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 00:37:01 (EDT)
The NECO (Nostalgia Enterprises Company) process for moly coating bullets is PATENTED! Please, to keep us here at Sniper Country from being sued for patent infringement, do NOT post the THE NECO PROCESS here on the Duty Roster!!! However, there are "other" alternatives to the NECO process, and I have NO problem with THEM being posted here. Stefan, check your E-mail, you'll have an answer to your question within just a few minutes of my posting this response.
Lest anyone think I'm being paranoid on this... I'm not. There's already some litigation underway, or has been (if it's over now), on unauthorized disclosure of this process. (Makes me wonder, though, when virtually the WHOLE process was published, step-by-step, in Precision Shooting a couple of years ago.) If you have questions about the NECO process, direct them to Roger Johnston at:
NECO
1316 67th Street
Emeryville CA 94608
(510) 450-0420
FAX: (510) 450-0420
Also, per Rod Regier's post to rec.guns dated 1997/10/09, note that NECO ran the following in the July 1997 issue of Precision Shooting magazine (and I remember reading this notice, by the way):
Attention Sellers of Molycoating Kits and Molycoated Bullets
------------------------------------------------------------
The process of molycoating bullets, as protected by U.S. Patent
4,454,175, is owned by NECO (Nostalgia Enterprises Company). NECO
has become aware that there are a number of persons who are selling
molycoating kits and/or molycoated bullets which appear to infringe
its U.S. Patent or which, in order to avoid the patent, take
shortcuts or use materials in a way which produces shoddy and
substandard bullets.
Under the U.S. Patent laws, a license is required for making, selling,
offering for sale, or using, a patented invention, or for selling
a
product using a patented process or for selling components in a
kit
form which is intended for use in practicing a patented invention.
Doing any of these acts without authorization of the patent owner
will
result in liability for damages which can include the patent owner's
lost profits and the patent owner's attorneys fees incurred in
enforcing the patent. In addition, the cost of defending against
a
patent infringment lawsuit is typically hundreds of thousands of
dollars and can result in tremendous disruption of personal and
business time.
Shooters who want the unique benefits of the patented molycoating
process should get what they pay for, without being unknowingly
subjected to potential liability for damages for patent infringment.
Persons who wish to be licensed under the patent to sell molycoating
kits or bullets, and avoid any potential liability for infringement
of this patent, are encouraged to contact:
NECO, P.O. Box 427
Lafayette, CA
94549
U.S.A.
(510) 450-0420
This notice is provided in compliance with 35 USC 287
===========
So, please be careful about the information that you ask for, or
post, here on the Duty Roster.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 01:14:45 (EDT)
Russ, please mail the moly info as I believe that we had a writeup in a German Gun Mag. about a similar process.
3 days to go !
Ende
Torsten
Germany - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 02:41:59 (EDT)
Seriously, we are very careful here because we don't want to have happen, what occurred at Fulton Armory's site, nor do we want to harm our armed forces in any way.
As for .308 vs. .30-06, I think the evolution was as much the improved performance in match shooting as it was the adoption of 7.62 NATO. Just my opinion, I've not researched this issue. Yet.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Mumbo, Jumbo USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 02:59:16 (EDT)
US beat Norway by 2 points in 300m, 3 position (3X40 shots), free rifle!
Team, 3 shooters:
1. USA, 3476pts.( Dubis/1166, Tamas/1156, Goff/1154 )
2. Norway, 3474pts.( Royseth/1164, Knudsen/1162, Larsen/1148 )
3. France, 3468pts.
Close race.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 06:10:28 (EDT)
I've never said a word about the 30-06 in this forum.
The only gun I've had in that cal. was a Browning 1919A4.
Got it on a saturday. Wanted to fire in at once. The only ammo I
could get my hands on was Norma factory loaded with 180gr Nosler Partition.
The most expensive 300round burst I've ever fired!
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 06:28:55 (EDT)
Blaser thermally destresses matchbarrels.
Match/sniperrifles are made in Liechtenstein.
Ask them.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 06:35:50 (EDT)
Bain: Check your e-mail please.
Gunny Rayfield: It shoots VERY well even though I'm old....
30.06, 7.62, both are fine but the big 50 rules!!!!
Out here.......
Come home Gooch!!!!!!
Big Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 08:18:18 (EDT)
Russ,
Another great comeback on why "WE" need so many different guns.
I will copy your responce and tape it to my wife's refrigerator.
Haraldur,
Thanks for the info on the 550 I have only used N-140 with 168s
and Berger 175vlds. One gun really shot it well and the other one was only
so,so. Have you tried VARGET yet?
I have used it with both LC-Match and Lapua cases and it has shot
very well in all the 308s I've tried it in. You get the best of both worlds
speed and accuracy. PS, for all you 06 guys it works great in them too.
God,I love this sight!! My kind of people.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 09:47:18 (EDT)
Hey, I bought a wind meter so now I can test the "thin Wind" in the Dolomites next week.
Rick,
anything I can practise while in the mountains, other than ranging,
and slope estimation ?
The summer has found Germany and my alergy is back.
En...Hatschui..de
Torsten
<lasercon@home.globe.de>
Sneeze, Wheeze Germany - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 10:14:15 (EDT)
Bipod: Harris(which) or BSquare(looks better in regard to not catching on stuff)
Sling: Which type or do I need one at all? Clip type that connects to the stock.
By the way in regard to wind speed. It is not the velocity of the particles but their effect and this is what I and apparently others have problems seperating. If at 30000ft the actual velocity of the wind is 30mph. There are less particles than at 30mph at sea-level. So a wind vane or a pressure differnce type sensor measures the effect. More particles binging a vanes blade causes it to turn faster at sea level. The force at 30mph obviously is less since less particles bing on the vanes. Thus the effect is different.
Wind meters read effects not actual velocity. Thus what is read by a wind meter is not the group velocity of the particles but a pressure differential, the same happens with flags, grass and paper.
So effects at sea are the same as those at higher altitudes. However
the equations must compensate for the time of flight since it is reduced.
If a trajectory program says the bullet moves left or right the same at
2 altitudes, it is suspect, given everything else is equal.
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
in, there USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 12:07:01 (EDT)
.30-06 advantages: Good round. Commercially common in US. Can handle heavier bullets better than .308.
.308 advantages: Also a good round, offering similar performance. Commercially common in US and beyond. A standard military round on half the planet, including the US. Lighter weight. Slightly smaller rounds take up less space and allow shorter, lighter actions. Case capacity more optimal than '06. Less recoil. Commercial match ammo of highest quality available. Wider selection of quality brass available. Modern military ammo available which incorporates latest designs (Armor Piercing, Match, tracer, etc.). "Fresh" tracer ammo available. Considered the standard in the US with military and police snipers. Scope ballistic cams commonly available. Ballistic charts for various match/sniper loadings common. Generally less expensive commercially and when reloading. Much more commonly available in high grade sniper rifles, both commercial and custom. Probably has an accuracy advantage. More likely to provide sniper/spotter ammunition compatability if you consider that important.
Again I say that the '06 is a fine round, but for sniping the .308 is better. The tool has been matched to the job. (Stepping off soap box and crawling behind cover!)
Russ: How dare you bring up the 590! Do you want to see a 590 vs. 870 debate started? *shudder*
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 12:53:29 (EDT)
308v30-06: Many years back (1960s) the 308 started winning in the nationals and many a competitor switched over to stay competitive. I am sure the military took notice of this. Also keep in mind the use in question. The few extra fps the 06 puts out is not needed for the intended purpose - sniping from 0 to 900 yards. The .308 can achieve this goal as readily, with slightly more accuracy, while weighing less, taking up less space, and burning more efficiently. The 06 on the other hand is ideal for hunting as you can load it up with heavier bullets and go spar with animals in the upper end of the American big game spectrum. In this it still rules the roost in America. My own experience with both rounds is that it has been far easier, and EXPECTED, to get sub moa accuracy with the .308 than with the 06 rifle of equal quality. This could result from, as Rick points out, the greater muzzle blast and felt recoil of the 06. That the .308 allows a short action doesn’t hurt either. If you need more power than a .308, move to a 300 Magnum.
Everyone, do not fear about commenting on the 308 v 06 v 6.5 v .50! That is the kind of thing this site is about. While pistol commentaries are OK, they are not the life blood of this site. Rifle accuracy on the other hand, is. So do not sweat it if you have a valid comment to add. Just try not to be as long winded as Russ and I!!! Cripes-a-mighty, you’d think we were…British!
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 12:56:46 (EDT)
Also, I got a "slope doper"... Very well executed, a very nice unit. My only concern is that the sheet aluminum will get (literally) bent out of shape if kept in a pocket while going afield. Time will tell whether this concern is valid or not...
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 13:27:50 (EDT)
Ende
Torsten
Germany - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 14:00:35 (EDT)
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 14:33:30 (EDT)
straight shooting!!!!
Haraldur Gustafsson <hallig@austurland.is>
Iceland - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 15:06:33 (EDT)
Thin wind-
I went to Marksmanship Training before some of you were borm so
i amy be a dinosaur in regard to current philosphy but I do try to stay
current. In any event, my first team leader always had an answer when I
would ask him what dope to put on my rifle. He would say, "son, what does
your log book say for your weapon on a day like this?
He could give me his dope, or he could give me his wisdom, but what
would it have meant for my eyes on my weapon? Folks there is no magic dope.
Each rilfe has its own personality. Each likes something a little different.
If you want to use your firing line mates dope, then why not just save
your ammo and record his score? PRACTICE, Record the results and constantly
reevaluate, and PRACTICE again. I know an old boy that uses a sporterized
Gustav barreled Mauser in 6.5 Swede with a fixed power simple cross-hair
scope that will beat most any of you out here to a 1,000 yds. Of course
he has put about 20,00 rds through that barrel and is ready to re-barrel
it now. It shoots 3/8", but so does he.
OUT!
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 17:28:22 (EDT)
Out here
Old Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 19:03:42 (EDT)
What is everyones opinion on thumbhole style stocks? I have one on
my custom 10-22 and love it, but is it suitable for higher calibers? Will
it give you problems with your palms in .308 or higher caliber? Pros? Cons?
It is VERY comfortable to me and I also find it personally aesthetically
and ergonomically pleasing.
Illegitemum non carborundum and good shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 19:08:16 (EDT)
Also, you had asked about rings. I'm strictly a Leupold Mk. IV rings guy. Yeah, I know. They're only $100+ for a set. They're also dammed good and possibly would survive the "three ball bearing" test that Rick has talked about.
Dave: 590 vs. 870? No question. 870. How about 870 vs. Benelli (M1 or M3). Or, how about Benelli M1 vs. Benelli M3?
Big Ed (again): Don't go, man. We need the wisdom and the experience. It's guys like you, Rick, James and Gooch (notwithstanding his evil nature) who make the site from the military perspective. Joe R. and others provide the LE perspective as well. We at Sniper Country wouldn't have a site without your participation.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Somewhere, over the rainbow USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 20:38:56
(EDT)
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 20:50:14 (EDT)
Tom - Go with the Harris and get the swivel model. I haven't found one yet that will beat the sucker. Get a stand military leather sling and use the quick disconnect sling swivels. That way you can use the sling in a sling supported position if necessary, or remove it when it's in the way. Cross sticks and sling combo is a very stable position withe minimal practice. On the stock, I would go with the H&S, no thumbhole (it restricts position adjustment), front rail to mount the bipod (you can adjust the bipod all the way forward for steady one point shots, and adjust the bipod towards the trigger guard as necessary to swing the weapon to cover a larger area or track a moving target), adjustments depends on weather and equipment. If you are shooting only in the prone position with the same amount of clothes then you don't need adjustments. If you are shooting from various positions in the summer heat and winter cold then adjustments may be required.
For my thoughts on my questions. Hold for wind, it changes too dam fast alot of time. By the time you click in the wind, the wind changes, you click again, the dam target has left the area. Also, there is nothing as embarressing as estimating 2.5 moa right for wind. You see a change in direction that requires 1.5 moa left and suddenly, in the heat of battle, find yourself with a shot fired with 1 moa right on the gun. As for the observer, he should be the man with the most experience. He is calling the shot for wind, and reading trace for a follow on shot if it is required. If they are equally trained, they both should be able to fire the shot. The wind call is what will cause most misses at range. If the shot is to be made in a no wind situation, or at 200 and less than the wind becomes less a problem and either can shoot or call. My thoughts, and as Steve pointed out, my school. In SOTIC we hold and teach experience calls. By the end of the 1st day at long range, all of the students agree.
Sarge, I havn't forgotten you, I can't get the dam slides to come up. Mr. Bain, the slides I sent you on Mils, could you send a copy to SARGE. Thanks!!!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 22:30:18 (EDT)
"DOC"
Terry Evans <evanstl@usa.net>
Ft. Lee, Va USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 23:40:10 (EDT)
Mr Bain, I for one would love to see a Benelli M1 vs M3 debate. As
for the 870, (my Depatrments issue shotgun) I have had only two types of
situations where the weapon fails...When the ejector breaks (very rare)
and when the student loads the shells into the magazine backwards.(Well,
it fit!!!)
Big John <scratch@1st.net>
Short Creek , Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 00:16:28 (EDT)
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 02:05:42 (EDT)
To Bill Rogers: You came "close." Be afraid. Be VERRRRRY afraid. :-)
"It" huh? Cute. Very cute. Beer? Make it Michelob. We'll talk and tell lies to each other about what great shots we are. I look forward to it sometime.
To Pat a.k.a. "Mr. Bullet" -- Glad I could help! :-)
And yes, I've had good luck with Varget too... it's always worth
trying.
On the return of my good friend, "Thin Wind" Torsten: Windmeter? My God, man! You're obsessed!!! I think you're getting "blown away" with this "thin wind" stuff. Just had to "breeze" by this topic again, eh what? Okay, okay... give us a report on whatever you find out.
Speaking of weather in Deutchland, there's a 57-percent chance I'll be returning to Wiesbaden in late January, 1999. Remember that restaurant where Prince Charles eats? Be prepared to make our TWO-WEEK AHEAD OF TIME reservations!
To Tom Scott: I posted H-S Precision's phone number in this, or the last, Roster "issue." Do a search and you'll find it. First, you want STIFFNESS in your riflestock. Beyond that, a sloping surface underneath the forearm is nice for minor elevation changes as you're sighting, an adjustable cheekpiece is nice if you're "particular" about mating your eye's line of sight with the center axis of the scope you're using, and the grip and pull should be suited for your stature. Ever since I read what Kelly McMillan had to say in a post about Kevlar in stocks, I've been sworn off ANY notion of EVER owning an H-S Precision stock. I don't think it was "sales hype" to push McMillan stocks (I think they're doing JUST fine, thank you), but it was pretty interesting reading. Boy, THIS ought to get some responses! Again, though, you're stock must be rigid and resistant to changes in both humidity and temperature. Bipod? I never liked Harris. Looks like something a kid put together. Mostly an appearance thing, I suppose. I know the Harris "locks down" harder when you're setting up a shot, but I went with B-Square -- but that was BEFORE the introduction of the Versa-Pod, and before "my" knowledge of the M-85 sold by Model 1 Imports. I bought two M-85s and will be buying a third. Scott Powers did a nice review on the Versa-Pod on this website -- you should read it. A sling is nice, and I like leather ones. Arguments over durability between organic versus synthetic materials not withstanding, I think leather slings offer more utility in "most" situations, especially if you use them as "shooting" slings, not just as "carrying" slings.
To Dave: NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! I do NOT want a "blank" debate about the merits of the "blank" over the "blank!" A pox on you for even thinking such a thing!!!
To Scott: British??? Bloody Hell!!! :-)
And good Lord YES, let's have discussions about .50 BMGs and .308s and .30-06s and....
To Torsten, on "blank" -- How DARE you fuel this "blank" discussion!!! ARGH!!! However, "yes," I know exactly what you mean about... well, "that thing" you told me about in Germany. And when do I get MINE to install and try out? Hint, hint.
To Dave (again): Range, deflection, and elevation have already been computed. (These darn Slope Dopers are GREAT!) Ballistic solution has been plotted. You and Torsten, on "the subject" -- well, be forewarned! :-)
To Jim Craig: Wow! Well said! Gadgets are always a poor substitute for practice.
To Bill Rogers: By rechambering the same barrel for a more powerful cartridge you are bound to change the barrel harmonics and therefore accuracy. You "may" realize the same level of accuracy again (I doubt it), but not without more load development. And NOW, you've added more powder that possibly won't be burned up in a now-shorter barrel (that extra length came from somewhere -- you took it from the barrel, even if it is less than an inch). This presumes, of course, you're talking about loading "up" to the power potential of the .30-06 Springfield/7.62x63mm cartridge, but I think it would hold true even if you didn't "max" the load.
To Mr. Bain: BAIN! BAIN! BAIN! WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN?!!! Here I am, searching like a madman for the "retract" key on my keyboard, and you bring up Benelli M1s??? Don't you have someone to sue or something??? Good grief! :-)
DAVE!!! Jesus H. Christ! (R. Lee Ermey style, again)... I just get done admonishing Mr. Bain, legal dude and all-around good guy, for bringing up "blank" -- then YOU! (I wonder if I still fit into my mailman uniform???)
To Duckman (in case you stop by again): No matter what information you receive, "try" to find a place to practice you're long-range shooting before that "opportunity presents itself." Okay?
To Rick: Have you any opinions on the Parker-Hale type of bipod? Good comments on your own questions. Dang! I sure wish I could come to your school! (sob, sniff, gnashing of teeth)
To "Doc" Terry Evans: Of course you know, I'm going to recommend the McMillan A-2 or A-3 stock.
To Big John (and others): Okay, if you guys can tell me WHY shotguns
should be debated on a SNIPER WEBSITE -- I'll listen. Just like college,
guys -- be prepared to defend your response. I'm brutal. The other cadre
at West Point nicknamed me "Captain Terminator" because I would NEVER give
my cadets "partial credit." Hey, in the Army, it's "GO/NO GO"... not "GO/NO
GO/SORT-OF-GO" -- and that's the way it is. Shotguns? HERE??? Okay, WHY?
I'm listening.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 02:38:54 (EDT)
2 Days to go !
Ende
Torsten
Germany - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 03:55:05 (EDT)
Okay Torsten, THAT did it!!! I want to know, RIGHT NOW, what's it
going to take to get me AND my rifle into Germany? With this one little
description, you painted in my mind a vision so lovely, so relaxing, and
SO DARN MUCH FUN... well, !#%@#@#, I wanna come play too! Next time you
come over, we'll go prairie dogging. Next time "I" come over there... fire
up that Espresso machine and break out the ammo!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 06:09:25 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 09:26:08 (EDT)
On the question of holding forward or back: This is a real catch-22. If you seat the rifle to your shoulder properly, you automatically pull the bipod back, which rotates it up, and loses the firm locked in feel. If you push forward, you have to make sure the bipod is set down to the rear of its final position, to account for the fact that you will be leaning into it. If you choose to pull the pod all the way back, you must first place the rifle far forward, pulling it back enough to seat the stock and cock the bipod in a rearward locked position. Screw all this! It is too much to worry about! With the Harris, there is no leg position to deal with. Push, pull, prod. It makes no difference. The legs just do their unmoving thing and can be forgotten, except for height.
I finally switched back to a Harris BR-S. With it, you simply get into position, seat the rifle, and forget what the bipod is doing. It simply doesn’t move. It has infinitely adjustable legs, which are admittedly slightly slower to deploy than the notched Versa/P-H/M-85 legs, but it is fairly indestructible. All of these things work, and in the end, your actual use and preference will define what works for you. For me, I found that the V-pod, while usable, was less desirable that the hard holding Harris.
Now for a quiz: A shorter bipod is more stable. Long legged ones
are not desirable. What is one to do when laying prone on a downward slope,
while shooting at a 400 yard target on an upward slope? There are several
answers but I’d like to hear what you all have to add! Well call this exercise,
"Pain in the Neck 101."
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 09:56:26 (EDT)
Torsten: What kind of German would wimp out on shooting a .50? "Good Grief" as Russ would say. I know my German ancestors would never do such a thing.
Russ (again): I've read McMillan's post on Kevlar in stocks. I'm certain that he puts out a quality stock without Kevlar, but I'm equally certain that HS does too, using the stuff. What do all you "oldtimers" know about the reliability of HS stocks? I've never heard a thing about them.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Somewhere, in the USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 10:05:10 (EDT)
Old ED,
Dont leave!! Where else can you find a place like this. I'am sure
you have a wealth of information you can share with us. I told my son about
the CMP and he's going to get into it.They have a program where he's at
so he was excited about it.
Todd,
If you look in the back of your sierra loading manual you will find
the information your looking for. Take your bullet and follow it through
the ballistic table's in the back of the manual. It will also give you
wind drift. The table's probably wont be exact but should put you close.
you will need to shoot your own rifle and load to confirm it. If you dont
have one e-mail me and I will look it up for you.
PS, you will need to know your approximate velocity check this by
your load data if you dont know exactly. Hope this helps.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Piere, SD USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 10:34:07 (EDT)
McMillan is the way to go, since I can't find HS contact and McMillan
says H&S aren't as good(?), No mention of Choate or Six. Get the A2
or A3, no finger hole.
Get a sloped front end a track type mount.
Get a leather military style sling. No mention of Web type or slings usefullness in general.
Blow off using a 308 or 30-06 and get a 50caliber for home defense and short range work, unless you can call in air support and get out of your house faster than the perp.
Have I got this correct, I hate to misquote and start debates.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Generally, here in the USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 10:56:52 (EDT)
Tom-
Good summary. Don't forget to have your demo man leave a claymore
or two on short timers facing the perps so they are slowed down if they
try to follow you out before the Fire for Effect hits the house.
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 11:44:46 (EDT)
P.S. For the el´cheapo rifle rest I teach my soldiers to use or folding entreching tool like you also have, fold it like a Z push the blade into the ground with the handle facing you and up, and 100Mphtape a field dressing to the top of the handle so that the rifle rests nice and soft. Presto !
Pain in the neck 101:
I lay at a 60-75° angle towards one side(left in my case)rather
than behind the rifle, so that Im not getting the Headrush with my feet
up and my neck sore.
Also I rest the Butt on the ground, or if time permits dig in a
little.
Bain: It was wanna`be Israeli, and with the .50 being a STOLEN copy of our legendary 13mm anti tank round I think every one of us should have fired one on their 18th birthday.
Old ED:
I´m not gonna beg, but stick around and share your knowledge.
Please !
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
shooting downhill, in Italy Germany - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 12:25:31
(EDT)
Thorsten: The 50 cal Mac is a fine weapon, lots of fun to touch it off and let the neighbors wonder!!!!!! (What's a bipod)? Not much knowledge here anymore but thanks!!!!
Jim C: Ya mean ya don't have Claymores set and ready all the time????? Sheeeeessss, young-uns......
Tom S: The 50 cal is for fun, home defense and close work is for the 20mm.....
Dave: I hate to say it but 870s suck!!!!! Had one, had LOTS of trouble with it, sold same. Mossburg is the only weapon, (shotgun) that passed the tests for acceptence for military service, 3,000 rds, cold, hot, mud, etc. Remington didn't even come close....(What did whoever said it mean by no shotguns on a sniper site)? When stalking I have mine straped to my walker right alongside my 50 cal and 20mm playguns, My sidearms are a 50AE Desert Eagle and two SOCOM .45s, (wife's gonna have to work on her arms)!
Bill R: No, didn't think you'd want to get into 50 cal vs 308/30.06! :-)
Bain: Will e-mail on the cleaning stuff, gotta think awhile, (I'm old ya know)! :-)
Out here
Gramps Ed <Draider6@aol.com>
Old Folks Home, What????? USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 12:56:13
(EDT)
I like the Harris bipods. I like a bipod that cants, but not loosely!
I pull the rifle into my shoulder (esp. with the .300 Win.) and the Harris
works well for that. That said, when my new rifle shows up I will be using
it as much as possible sans bipod, using the jarhead "ruck rest" as Jim
mentioned. And there's always the stick tripod, they work pretty well most
of the time.
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 13:00:54 (EDT)
Torsten: I liked the P-H style pods for all the reasons you list. Which was why I wrote such a good review on them when I first tried them. But having gone back to a Harris, I realized I was spending more time adjusting things with the P-H style, than I was with the Spring and clip Harris. I guess I am getting old and just want to keep it simple.
Tom: You can use all the bipods we have mentioned to good effect. It all comes down to what you prefer. P-H types are not whimpy, but they do move more. For some, this is not an issue. For others, it is a reasopn to buy one!
On the Stocks: Both the H.S. Precision and the McMillian are good - negative comments can be made on both. Nothing is perfect.
On leather slings. Buy a Turner. Best on the market. I have an MRT and can not tell you much about it, but it doesn't compare to the Turner. Do not forget, you are not buying the sling to CARRY the rifle. It is a tool to get into a solid hold. Leather will GENERALLY strech less than webbing. Frankly, you can get by with out a sling. This ain't high power.
hmmm...bet that will start a debate: To sling or not to sling!
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 13:37:04 (EDT)
H/S precision stocks are a very good choice, and check out the new UARS stocks from Gunsite. They are good looking, made well, and have great documentation to back their claims about lowering your MOA. Thats what I recommend to my customers.
Take that McMillan and shove it!
AL
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 13:38:03 (EDT)
Ende
P.S. Hey Grandpa! good to have you back, nice ghillie on that walker
of yours !
Torsten
still, in Germany - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 14:57:39 (EDT)
But I am inclined to pose a question wrt to its removal.
That being I understand no one would want to release classified info, but a discussion of what options to overcome said question, being in the form of speculation, not the release of classified info, doesn't seem any different than a discussion of colors of a stalking suit to defeat human eye detection...
That said, your site kicks butt.
Jeff Pack Captain USMC (retired)
Recon Rules! :)
PS: just as if the shotgun debate hadn't ended, I carried a
Remington 870 in the bush for 2 years, and never had a single failure with
it. and it was quite well used...
I still have it today...
Jeff pack <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 15:13:12 (EDT)
On a broader note: given that we have lurkers from all of the Spec. Ops. units, federal L.E., and the design and logistics types from ARDEC, ARL, Rock Island, etc., who are very concerned about their work, and given that we often obtain public domain information from these very same people, we are very careful not address certain issues. (See my article on the electronic counter-sniper systems. We knew about this for a while, but wouldn't say anything until DOD, DOJ and the defense contractors went public.) Jeff, our deletion was no slam against you, we just don't want our friends in the U.S.G. and sniping community to think we are careless, thoughtless, stupid, or otherwise acting contrary to the interests of military and law enforcement snipers. We're not like the pinheads at "Gung Ho" magazine whose inadvertent actions compromised troops in the field back in the '80s. We're certainly not like Philip Agee of the Agency whose intentional actions led to deaths in the field back in the '70s. We don't even want -- in any way -- the appearance of any impropriety on our part, as much as we might want to discuss an issue, such as the one you raise.
Keep up the posts. We need your input here, In-Country.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
On the right side, of the law USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 16:45:04
(EDT)
Bain: Stil thinking!!!!!
CPT Jeff: Bain's right, we shouldn't talk about that subject for a while yet I guess. Some of the bad guys could read it here and use it to the wrong advantage. It's in several books now but if the Military still has it classified we should respect that. (I hate it when Bain's right)! :-)
Gooch: Get yer ass back here man, I need cover!!!!!
BTW: 50BMG rds are available at every "Stop and Rob" that I go into!!!!!!!!
Did I ever tell you about the 500 yard shot blindfolded, over the left shoulder, in the center of target with my trusty Mossburg loaded with #7 shot? No, well I won't bore you then..........
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Old Folks Home, What????? USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 19:06:29
(EDT)
john cooke <johnnyc12@yahoo.com>
san diego, california USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 19:06:54 (EDT)
Gotta go, the jello's ready, I love jello, I don't have to put my teeth in, I can just gum it!!!!!!!
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Old Folks Home, What?????? USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 19:12:15
(EDT)
Big John <scratch@1st.net>
Short Creek, Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 22:01:27 (EDT)
Gramps.. Tisk, tisk, One must not slander the 870 we use them at
work (ie training) all of the time and i have never had one malfuctiuon
yet. And several Turkeys have landed on my plate because of the 870.
Stagger
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, IN USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 23:27:26 (EDT)
Recon1
Lewisusa1
Christopher Mark Lewis <lewisusa1>
Kent, Wash USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 23:39:36 (EDT)
On your "problem." I like it. Hmmm. Well, if I had "gear," I'd make a pile and place the bipod on it. If I had time AND the right gear, I'd dig a trench for myself and the rifle, thus elevating the muzzle. If the bipod was quickly detachable, I'd "consider" detaching it and sliding it rearward along the underside of the stock, holding it in place with my hand, preferably in a recessed area of the stock if it was designed with one. If time permitted and it was a B-Square type, you could unscrew the extensions from one leg and screw them all into the other, then take up a modified/modified/modified sitting position and use a knee for the other support (should be pretty steady, actually). That's all I can come up with, just off the top of my head. Like Jim Craig suggested, I'd probably just dump the bipod idea and utilize an appropriate body position. All in all, with a several photos of the suggested solutions, you could do a nice feature article for Sniper Country on this problem of yours. I think it would be a good one and very useful. Hell, son, we'll make you a star!
To Mr. Bain: Hey, I'm sorry I ever MENTIONED having a Mossberg 590 Persuader for unwanted guests. God, I don't want another "what shotgun is best" going on here. Let me ask you REAL snipers (Rich, Gooch, anyone)... do YOU guys haul SHOTGUNS along with you??? Should we be looking at this issue or not? Further, it's obvious that H-S Precision sells "good" stocks, or people wouldn't be keeping them in business. Still, that doesn't change the facts about Kevlar in stocks.
To Pat: Yes, I want the information on the "new" bipod. Most rikky-tik, please. Thanks.
To Tom Scott: Can't find H-S Precision??? I told you, son, look at the last Duty Roster or so (if not this one). I posted the phone number. Also, following Jim Craig's line of reasoning (rather good, by the way), establish a trench system around your house and line the trenches with pungy (sp?) sticks (make sure to dip them into something interesting, like strychnine, arsenic, or manure). Leave a safe route through this mess (and endeavor to REMEMBER it). As a contingency for a night-time escape, prepare "flashers" to blind your pursuers and impair their nightvision capabilities. Deploy smoke behind you as you move. Call in the fast movers with "snake n nape." That ought to about do it.
To Bill R: I have two of Torsten's "magic" bullets. Neat. Laser-etched with "McMillan." Very, very cool. I keep trying to get the lad to make some for me in .338 caliber, around 300 grains, with a B.C. of close to "1.00" -- I keep hoping.
To Ed: Why are you leaving? WHEN did you say you're leaving? I've missed something here.
"When stalking I have mine strapped to my walker right alongside my 50 cal and 20mm playguns, My sidearms are a 50AE Desert Eagle and two SOCOM .45s, (wife's gonna have to work on her arms)!" -- Thanks, Ed, you gave me a laugh. I rarely laugh. Again, thanks. I don't know about "NO" shotguns here, I just want to know "why." And, I love my 590 Persuader. Bought it the day the d**khead in the White House signed the Brady Bill into law. Kind of a "statement" of sorts, you know. Why that one? It had more shots than the 870 or a Winchester, and it was affordable, and it was rugged enough to pass Mil-Spec testing. Good enough for me.
To all: Okay boys and girls, can we put this shotgun topic to rest now? If it doesn't die a natural death pretty soon, I'll personally kill it -- and enjoy doing so. I think Dave summed it up nicely, for whatever purpose it has in a sniper role. We're talking SNIPERS here, not assaults or "hit and runs." I'm still open to justification of shotgun discussions here, but I haven't heard a convincing argument yet, FOR A SNIPER WEBSITE.
To Al: Gee, what do you REALLY think about McMillans? Come ON, quit beating around the bush!!! For what it's worth, I sent McMillan an E-mail on this delivery problem of yours. It's a very valid concern. Maybe Kelly will stop by to comment (or maybe not). Personally, I've had to wait, and wait, and WAIT for WEEKS on three, count ‘em, THREE separate occasions, for a stock or for stock work. Understand though, in the "gun life," I'm used to waiting for everything. It's a way of life. I think most of us would agree, waiting for services, products, and upgrade parts is the way it is, and it's not likely to ever change.
To Torsten: I, too, have the Competitor slings from Brownells. Three of them, in fact. I like them. Never thought of the camouflage cream. Good idea, I might try it.
To Jeff Pack: Mr. Bain called me at home, immediately, and left a message on my answering machine about your post. First, we still think you're a swell guy and you can come over and break bread at my house anytime. Second, though, we felt that while your question was innocent enough, it may have lead to things being posted here that neither I nor the rest of the Council would want to be liable for. I'm sure you can understand. If you'd like to discuss this offline, feel free to drop me an E-mail. Again, for the record, "I am not mad at you." Neither is Mr. Bain. We just feel that your question could have led others to post information here that would not be wise to have out in the open. Granted, perhaps elsewhere on the Internet, the answers to your questions exist. However, we don't want the information here. Further... I'd prefer you not tell everyone, via personal E-mail, what your question was (if you haven't already done so), simply because it would likely lead to others researching the matter, and I don't feel it is a topic that should be delved into with any degree of serious devotion. Again, I don't feel it's a "free speech" issue, I feel it's a "not for release on this site" issue. And to the rest of you... don't ask me about it, because you won't get jack ca-ca out of me on the matter. Period.
To Todd: Thanks for posting the correct load data.
To Gramps: Before Torsten calls in an air strike on your aged and decaying body, let me tell you that it's "Torsten" not "Thorsten." I'm sure Torsten has "range" on you now, as I type this. Just exactly how fast CAN you get to cover with that walker??? :-)
To Todd: Good story on the 7.62x54mm Russian. Ignorance abounds.
To Big John: I smiled. I rarely smile either. The shotgun thing isn't dead yet (sigh), but I have my hopes. Okay, tell you what. Today is Thursday. Shotgun discussers have until Sunday, 26 Jul 98, 2400 hours Central time, U.S.A., to get this out of their systems. (Where's my Prozac? It was right HERE. I swear it was!) Oh... on the .22 Long Rifle vs. the .460 Weatherby Magnum? Don't push me, John, just don't push me. :-)
To Christopher: My recommendation is to avoid any of the Springfield
scopes. This will, no doubt, annoy current owners of said scopes. Life's
rough, what can I say? For the money, there are any number of better scopes
with regard to clarity, overall quality, and utility. Shop around. Why
do you want a 56mm objective? Just asking. You mentioned long-range shooting,
but what are your targets going to be? I ask this with respect to the type
of reticle you want/need. Thanks for the kind words about the site.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 02:45:03 (EDT)
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Orlandpark, Ill. USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 04:52:07 (EDT)
Oh Russ !
Hammer zwo, hier Adler eins,
Feuerkommando - kommen, Richtung 6400, Entfernung 3800, Schuß
- kommen,........., 150 nach Rechts, Schuß - kommen,
ganzer Zug, drei Gruppen - Feuer !
There, that should keep you and Grandpa at bay digging ,the walker,
in for a while.
BTW, when logging temperature in my dope book, is it worthwhile to ad the winchill ??
one day to go !
Ende
Torsten
Germany - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 06:16:35 (EDT)
To "Windchill" Torsten, formerly known as "Thin Wind" Torsten --
likely soon to be known forever more as simply "Windy" Torsten: "Ahem"...
WINDCHILL???!!! Listen, ol' boy, aren't you getting just a WEEEEEEEE bit
carried away with this wind thing??? Now see here, next you'll have us
wondering how to USEthe wind to help us REALLY "reach out." Mein
Gott!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 06:33:37 (EDT)
DForce: As far as H/S Precision stocks go, yes the barrel channel is large enough to accomodate even the heaviest varmint barrel. You won't go wrong with and H/S, Or look at the UARS stocks from Gunsite - Phone # 520-636-4565.
al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 07:09:15 (EDT)
Russ: Could you be any more long winded????? :-) Glad I made you laugh, (what were you laughing at)????? :-) BTW, I'm not going anywhere, I forgot, where was I going???
Mossburg RULES!!!!!!! :-) OK Russ, I'm done with that, (unless someone pisses me off)! Next Bain or some other lawyer type will be cutting down my M21.......
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Old Folks Home, Confused USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 07:49:47
(EDT)
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Old Folks Home, Confused USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 07:55:21
(EDT)
Al: A local store had a McMillan stock recently for sale. I'll try to get hold of them today and see if it is still available.
Pump Shotguns( hee hee, this is for Russ). They all seem to work.
Never had any complaints with the Moss or 870's. One thing, if you buy
a used shotgun, make darn sure you have two action levers. I had an old
Stevens with only one action lever attacted to the slide and it would bind
under the stress of fast operation. My 870 on the other, hand can be fired
as fast as a semi, with nary a burp.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 09:05:48 (EDT)
We learned in FIBUA to shoot the opposite wall when entering a room or just shooting into a open door or window in order to bounce bullets and debris around the room. Has anyone of you bounced and hit something !
Which brings me to the following Question:
We want to engage a 6" Target at 100 Meters with one shot. 5 M in
front of the target is a double pane window, and there is one 2 M in front
of the Muzzle. Both at 90°. This was brought up by a German Police
force. Any input from our LE Snipers ?
What caliber and what bullet at what velocity ?
Opa Draider6:
I have this well hung friend of mine, we call him Tripod.
No, the bipods work well on the range and out in the open, but when
I go out as a Sniper in my Reserve Unit I leave it in my well filled Rucksack
and use that instead or I find myself a position behind or under a fallen
tree were I dont need it. And yes I know, "train with what you acually
will use". Give my Regards to Fräulein Hoppe!
P.S. is it true that the Marines carry their Sandbags filled ?
Ende
Chilled thin Wind Torsten
Germany - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 09:39:38 (EDT)
Winchester got the contract for 1 mill. rounds to the Swedish army.
The .17cal, 53gr wolfram bullet has a MV of ca. 1350ms/4400fps. Accuracy is better than 1MOA in the PSG90/Accuracy International AW-rifle.
The new round har flatter trajectory, less winddrift and shorter time of flight than any .300wm-load at any range.
Unit price is $2.
I'll bet some of you US snipers will have to change the ballistic
cams on your scopes in the near future.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 09:48:53 (EDT)
Buy a Harris walker have your 18 year old wife wrap her camo around it(remember to keep it clean with Hoppes). Dig into the jello and shotgun them with a nice clean support with lot's of springs(made by the Viagra Stock company).
I wish I wasn't so curious all of your not talking about not talking is really getting me interested in the chilled wind issue.
Actually, Thank you all for your help. I'm spending money and making
gun parts dealers very happy.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
I love , the USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 11:31:43 (EDT)
They tested quite few projectiles, so it would seem that this sort of shot is marginal, even with FMJ and penetrator rounds. Add that second window you mentioned, 5 meters from the shooter, and things look to go south in a big way.
Hmmm...what was your answer? .50 AP? Linear Accelorator? Gauss gun? AT-4? Or the venerable 88mm Flak 36?
Tom: Do not forget to rub Hoppes #9 vigorously into your facial skin
before making the shot. It also helps to pray to the great god of accuracy,
Ballistilicus the Red. With these methods, and Gooch's Chicken bones, along
with a goodly dose of the familiy fortune, your gear will be assuredly
squared away.
Scott <I hate glass powers>
USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 12:33:50 (EDT)
Chill Wind, I'd use a 50 cal or a 20mm, glass has VERY little effect on them! :-)
YOU GUYS LEAVE MY JELLO ALONE!!!!!!!!
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Old Folks Home, Confused USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 14:42:54
(EDT)
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
???????, ??????? USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 14:44:35 (EDT)
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/winchester/win2.html
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 16:08:10 (EDT)
It is the trend these days to hate McMillan because of the long waits for their stocks.I don't know what's going on at McMillan but if the long waits are caused by the company refusing to take shortcuts and lower the quality of the product just so they can ship them out the door faster than I think that they should be admired.I'd rather have a top quality stock that I had to wait for than get a piece of garbage tomorrow.
Kodiak
USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 16:19:58 (EDT)
To Scott: (to sling or not to sling)
The sling is the umbilical cord which joins the rifle to the shooter
and make the two become one. It is also the third part of the holy trinity
together with the MoJo stick and the sun bleached chicken bones that allow
the shooter to direct the bullet to the target by force of will alone.
No serious shooter would ever consider going afield without all three.
Sadly, the human arm can only stand about 30 minutes of such bliss so it
is important to use the power of the sling wisely.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 18:00:23 (EDT)
Russell: I like my Benelli M-1 Super-90 Tactial with Ghost Ring night sites and Pistol Grip Stock.
Scott: You can not shoot your slide action as fast as I can shoot my Benelli, I can't even shoot it as fast as it will shoot. Before I got it (a gift to myself for surviving the police academy at 47) someone told me that if you fired five rifled slugs as fast as you could pull the trigger the fifth would be in the air before the first reached a target set at 100 yds. I thought this was pure B.S. until I tried. I can get four in the air but my arthuritis catches up with me at about that point. Makes my old 11-87 seem unbelievably slow in a side by side comparison.
Mil Dots: The formula works with Yards, Meters r whatever. If you measure the target in meters the range will be in meters, if you measure the target in yards the range will be in yards, if you measure the target in inches the range will be in inches, if you measure the target in fathoms the range will be in fathoms.........
Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Roasting in the Heat in Parched, West Virginia USA - Thursday, July
23, 1998 at 20:41:10 (EDT)
Hammer 2 here is Adler 1
Fire mission over
direction - 6400 - range - 3800 - shoot
coming
direction (correction?) - 150 right - shoot
coming
full mission - 3 groups - FIRE
Well 6years in Deutschland and my deutsch/englisch worterbuch haven't
gone completely to waste!
Oh and I did pick up on the Bavarian use of 2.
Russ - Mossberg 500A
Ende!
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 20:50:36 (EDT)
Torston - I've got to train with you man! Mountail cottage, range off the front porch, and those lovely women!
Torsten, Scott - On bipods, we issue them in the rare event they can use them. Under the normal circumstances of a stalk into FFP (final firing position for the acronym impaired:-)), the sniper team will not be able to assume a low prone postion. And Jim, they will not carry a ruck sack in the stalk. They may carry a ruck to a hide site in the dark, but day stalk? The bipod we use is the Harris. It is the tightest and most versitle, in my opinion, for this business. We have tried the others and don't care for them. On positioning, Torsten has the same process we use. Settle the butt into the shoulder, push with the toes into a neutral bipod position. Too much forward push and the recoil impulse launches the weapon up while the round is still in the barrel. Pull back tension, and the shooter has a feeling the stock is not settled and at the last minute pushes forward with his shoulder thus "bucking" the weapon into a high left shot.
On the sling, we use the standard leather military sling in conjunction with "cross sticks" for shots from the high prone to high kneeling positions. The best cross sticks, that I have found, are made using the thin hollow tent poles. Join three with a length of 1/8" bungee and tie off. Repeat with the other cross stick. Join the two with suspension line and collapse. They now can be used in a high prone to high kneeling position. Another item is the ever present sand sock. Use this as a recoil damper on any item, boulder, log, tree branch, etc. Just our techniques for consideration.
Scott - On slope firing, lay across the slope as much as possible, or suck it up and use the Creedmore position (Hee Hee). On slings, recommend you carry one. Better to have and not need than to need and not have!
Russ - Stick with the McMillian stocks man. That gives the rest of us a chance to beat you when you stock debedds itself on a hot day of stalking!! ;-)
Mr. Bain - We have used H&S Precision stocks since 1987 when they first came out. Our stocks have survived 50,000 rounds + and still shot moa or smaller. That includes those stocks that took 1000 foot free falls by students that released the wrong quick release during an airborne operation. We even had one sniper team use their "dropped" weapon for a final shot and hit the target at 575 meters with the first shot. That's accuracy and durability. Try that Russ with that McMillian!
Mr. Bain - Thanks for reminding me of the "Bung Ho" fiasco!
Open question, why would you want an objective that is twice the diameter of the scope barrel? The barrel limits the light too!
Torsten - We call them rabbit rounds and use the technique to great success! On the glass, the glass right in front of your weapon will prevent the hit. A test was conducted in 85 using glass 1 meter in front of the muzzel and they did not register a hit on a target 5 foot by 5 foot at 200 meters. I guess you could interpolate that to 2.5 feet by 2.5 feet at 100 meters. They were using M118 Match (not Special Ball) during the test. Use count down, blow your glass with shotgun (ye gods I just screwed up!) and blow the far glass with observer round. Thus 3 - shot gun, 2 - observer shoots, 1 - sniper shoots, and explosive entry is made. A way, not perfect and takes practice.
TorF - We played with the .17 cal and didn't like the round. The round doesn't impart any energy dump until approximately 48 inches of penetration (no smart comments girls!). Too fast and small, and NO I am not talking about knock down power! The effect is the same as a hypodermic needle thrust into the arm as opposed to slowly pushed into the arm (OUCH)!
Depity Dave - Remember, you have to wait for the gas to operate a bolt, but you can operate a bolt manually as fast as you want. :-)
Gramps - So that's where my walker got off to. I've been looking for it all over the place. The guys think I lost it so I wouldn't have to be a walker on the stalks anymore.
.50 Cal or 14.5mm, which is best? Hold hard guys!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 23:10:42 (EDT)
To Torsten: On your "scenario," .223, .308, or .300 would do fine with the right bullet. Federal has some "special" stuff (LE only, drat it all!), and I see in the current issue of TS magazine that Hornady has something called TAP Urban and TAP Precision (again, LE only -- bloody Hell!). Most (all?) of the commercially available (read, "us civilians can get our hands on it") stuff is questionable at best in make-it-through-glass-and-stay-on-target tests, but these newer cartri> an that I see being introduced are made to do exactly what you presented. I think Remington has some special-purpose ammo along these lines also. Oh... now I see, scanning down, that Scott said about the same thing. Thanks for the back-up, Scott.
To TorF: Do I take it that, like in my background of armor ("tanks"), that APDS is "Armor-Piercing, Discarding Sabot?" I don't suppose you could get some to me the next time I'm in Germany, could you? (Hint.) Actually, the manufacturer of this stuff (Olin) is in East Alton, IL, only about 3.5 to 4.0 hours from me... I'll never be able to get any of the stuff.
And, you're absolutely right on your comment about ballistic cams.
Oh! Then you posted the URL (Universal ResoustufLocator) for the Winchester APDS round! Thank you!
To Kodiak: That's about my feeling, too. I hate the wait (although you get used to it when it comes to "things gun"), but I think McMillan stocks are excellent.
To Rick: Thanks for the excellent recommendation on McMillan stocks! I'll be sure to buy another one! :-) On your 3-2-1 -- "cool" man, very cool. Very testicular. I like it.
To Nathan, Deputy Dave, or any LE type here: Any chance of one of you getting me some of this glass-busting, LE-only ammo to test and review?
To all: Shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun.
(There. Just wanted to "participate" up until the deadline on Sunday.)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 01:31:18 (EDT)
Say, fellas, since we've discussed handguns at length, and are now
into shotguns (hell, as long as it's got a magazine tube and 12-ga. barrel,
boys), do ya suppose we could discuss SUBMACHINE guns next? Huh? Puh-leease?!
How 'bout it? *sniff* *snivel* Maybe breaching charges, too?!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 04:43:39 (EDT)
To Matt: After the shotgun discussion (WHICH WILL STAND DOWN AT 2400 HOURS CENTRAL TIME THIS SUNDAY), we'll be moving into such "applicable for a sniper website" topics such as cratering charges, tactical nukes, flame throwers, and the ever-popular "thousand and one" uses of det cord.
Also, to you artillery wannabes, click here
and get yourselves squared away properly.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 05:03:54 (EDT)
Sarge,
good going, you can call my back up any day!
Rick,
Sure would be fun, but my wife would´nt be to happy if we
played all day long with the rifles. If you want a demo of the above, it
could be arranged after Shot 99´.
Gramps,
Liftoff! Were leaving on our vacation today.
I´ll be back on the 8th of August. I already put up the claymores
on my perimeter, and we had our Rottweiler on Joguhrt and Jello for the
last three weeks. Man is he hungry.
I´ll see if I find an Internet Cafe to bug you guy´s.
If not , take care and watch out !
Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Deutschland - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 05:15:09 (EDT)
Aufschlag nicht beobachtet, kommen !
Torsten
moving fast on the, Autobahn in Germany - Friday, July 24, 1998 at
05:20:48 (EDT)
Probably the toughest international military competition.
http://www.military.ch/SRC/default97.html
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 06:41:15 (EDT)
I Just wanted to also put my two cents in on the soon dead shotgun
debate.
For semi-auto I'll go with Benelli or nothing. (It is "recoil" operated,
not gas by the way).
For pump action I'll chose an 870 over a Mossberg 590.
I've had a 870 and a 590 for many years now and I have to say the 870 is built far better and feels more solid but the 590 has never jammed on me either. The Benelli M1 I recently got is awesome but exspense but it beats the heck out of an 11-87.
Say, can we talk about muskets next, please, can we, can we?! (Sorry,
previous life flash-back)
Keep'em in the 10X guys.
Brian Middleton <bmiddleton@sprynet.com>
Irvine, CA USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 07:25:18 (EDT)
GLASS: The closer suspect is to glass the better. The farther the
shooter is from the glass is also better. I have
been practicing with windshield glass @ 100yds. Have had
no prolems with headshots (tee target). This is shooting from the
same height as the windshield, directly in front of the car. Angle shots
should prove to be more interesting.
Joey Bagodonuts
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 10:05:40 (EDT)
Rick: It's MY walker, custom made by my young and very beautiful wife, (trying to get laid here guys)!
Sarge: Thanks for the translation, never spoke German that well, Vietnamese was a little more in line for me!
Depity Dave: CAMMO color for the walker man! Use urban for your situation!
Scott: Watch where you rub my Hoppe!
Tom: Correct young man!
All: DO NOT EVER GET IN A TYPING CONTEST WITH CONDOR! YOU HAVE NO, REPEAT NO, CHANCE OF WINNING! (He even spells correctly too)! Shhhhheeeeeezzzzzzz Younguns
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Over Yonder, Totally Confused USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 10:32:47
(EDT)
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Upset, Carolina USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 12:02:38 (EDT)
Steve: On slings. I agree having one is necessary. I just do not believe in keeping it on the rifle. This may be a hold over of my hunting days. A shoulder slung rifle is a useless one! I do use an MRT in High Power. I want a Turner badly. The Keepers are getting mighty loose you see.
Rick: Do you train the troops to use a shorten sling loop (about 8" long) or do you have them keep a full sling on the weapon? When prone supported, I have found little use for a sling, but it is a Godsend in other positions. I guess my consern would be relying on it to much and having it get in the way the rest of the time. What do the pros think? Gentleman, speak up!
Dep Dave: I'll stick with my pump. Less tendancy to jam when it gets
crazy. Yes, I know, that statement alone is open to argument, which is
probably why I made it! But as for the relative speed, I'd rather fire
controlled aimed rounds quickly, than unaimed rounds speedily. For me personally
that means a pump. It would be too easy to just toss rounds out with a
semi! I am thinking specifically of my last deer hunt. Shot one, hit the
buck in the lungs, shot two took him in the rump as he tore away and anchored
him before he could leave the property. Time: about 1.5 seconds. Crpies-a-mighty,
how fast do I need to be? Over one the next farm the guy was using an 1187
and it sounded like a war zone. He never did hit the deer!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 12:47:25 (EDT)
Russ you said: "On your "scenario," .223, .308, or .300 would do fine with the right bullet." I'd have to respectfully disagree. Shooting through double pane, a yard or so in front of the muzzle, and then expecting the round to penetrate double pane at the target and hit him/her, is not too likely, no matter what round you use. If you had the time, you'd be better off taking out the near glass and replacing it something that looked natural, even platic sheet. Ricks Idea looks to be about the only way to assure a "one" shot hit on target. It actually takes three shots, but the designated shooter's bullet is likely to be the only one that will connect. Can you all say: Three, Two, WU...
By the way, I have heard that LE is not having the best of luck with
some of the specialty rounds in discussion. Can any of you veryfiy this.
Problems with zero and penetration seem to be an issue.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 12:58:24 (EDT)
Drew - Let the strips fray and use totally seperated strings of burlap inconjunction with the strips. This will give you a texture similar to nature. Use a random pattern, and DON'T use every square inch of your netting for burlap. This causes a wooly booger effect and creats a new unnatural shape. Use most of the net for attaching natural camouflage as you move through your stalk.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 13:37:18 (EDT)
Gramps, keep your Jello stiff !
I´m sure I wont miss you bunch of triggerpullers !
Sniff.....
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 15:11:49 (EDT)
I know folks whom swear by either method, but the majority
of folks I know remove the strips...
Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
CenterOfThe World, Microsoft USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 17:00:24
(EDT)
As far as using a sling in the field, I personally wouldn't care to rely on one. Too combersome to get into in a hurry. One can take a good sitting position with out one, and supported prone does not really require one. The short loop is a good idea though. Things are probabbbly different for police. Then again, I'd hate to have a good tight sling hold for TEN HOURS!
Off to do a little training! Everyone have a great weekend!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 18:30:15 (EDT)
Russ,
I'll put the arm on a buddy of mine who is now in charge of the
TACT TEAM and see if I can get a box of the TACTICAL ammo. If I do I'll
let you know and we can talk about how to get it to you. Also I will get
you more info on the bi-pods this weekend. I've been out of town and just
got back.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 19:41:13 (EDT)
bob twist
houston, tx
bob twist <bobtwist@sprynet.com>
houston, tx USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 21:04:25 (EDT)
Got a Model Seven Hundred SA and a Rem. Sportsman SeventyEight LA to work with. Both standard boltface. Also have an HS Precision SA stock from a Rem. Police w/ devcon bedding in place from the previous factory barreled action. In other words, I'm gathering pieces for a 6.5mm something or other.
I'm thinking of a 6.5mm/08 or maybe a 6.5mm/284. A highpower friend says the '08 is only good out to 600 yds. I don't understand that one. I figured it would easily stay supersonic a 1000 and be a good long range cartridge.
How about the 6.5/284? Would that work w/ an SA using 140gr Match of VLDs? Can the barrel channel be opened up to accomodate the LV contour? Also, I'm assuming the 284 case would allow for greater powder capacity and therefore a little more horsepower.
TorF,Al, and Jeff gave some great input re: this subject, but I still can't make up my little mind. I've even thought of pulling the 300WM barreled action out of my Police rifle and making it a 6.5mm/06 or '06 Imp using the Sportsman 78 LA. That might be a dumb move but it wouldn't be the first time.
Could I have some more input 'cause I'm betting the folks that post on the Roster know more about this than yours truely.
Thanks for any additional assistance.
Jeff A.
P.S. What's a healthy barrel breakin procedure on a new matchgrade
barrel? I plan to shoot moly exclusively.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 01:01:32 (EDT)
You did pass the MMPT, right?
Nobody, but nobody, who has more than two rocks in their heads loads their own for self-defense or LE work. First, you'll get your ass slammed by the defense attorney in the criminal action. Second, you'll get your ass slammed by the plaintiff's attorney in the civil action against you and your department. Third, you'll be fired and possibly prosecuted yourself. Am I clear on this one?
I really hope what you meant was "loads that would approximate LE loads, but not loads that I would ever use on- or off-duty." That WAS what you meant, wasn't it?
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
No, I don't think so USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 02:36:11 (EDT)
Not wishing to repeat what others have said, BUT!!!!!
Select a good comercially avaliable round (I use the Remington GS40SWB
180 grain Golden Saber) that works well in your gun. Then get together
with some similer componits and a chronograph. Develop a practice load
that works like your duty load and Practice, Practice, Practice! I can
hear the perp's attorney now as he says "Now let me get this right, Officer
Henderickson, you couldn't find a cartridge that you felt would do enough
damage, one that you felt was deadly enough, so you developed your own
special extra distructive, extra deadly cartridge!"
Scott,
You are the one who brought up shooting your smooth bore fast, not
me, we would all prefer to take slow aimed shots if the oppertunity exsists.
In addition what happens to your second and subsiquent shots if you only
have one hand avaliable to operate your slide action?
Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Off for the Week End (YEA!!!) in beautiful, West Virginia USA - Saturday,
July 25, 1998 at 07:15:34 (EDT)
Go for 6.5-08/.260Rem in the 700SA. It's got the best accuracypotentional.
Loaded with 130gr VLD at 3000fps or 140gr VLD at 2800fps you have rounds that will do +/-1500fps at 1000yds.
There is no need to push things faster using bullets with these ballistics. VLD-bullets seems to be most accurate in the 2600-2900fps speedrange.
With the 6.5-08 you'll get better barrellife than any other 6.5mm
round except the ballistic twin, 6.5X55.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 09:05:11 (EDT)
Sgt. G
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 09:33:06 (EDT)
I am not sure anybody would want an old dude like me as a tactical
shooter. And hearing that a rookie gets paid less than 30K falls a little
short of a Rocket scientists pay.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
old, virginny USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 11:27:00 (EDT)
Please, be careful.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 11:40:00 (EDT)
To Matt: I didn't read the whole thing, just found it. Still, artillery IS important to military snipers, so if you can find us a good site, we'll put it here as a link. Thanks, Matt.
To Gramps: I'm glad you did that, and thanks for sharing the story with us. Seriously. See my comments at the end of this post.
To Scott: Yes, and I stand by what I said. So MUCH of shooting is "the bullet" -- not velocity, B.C., or whatever... especially when it comes to down-range performance. I refer you again to the specialty bullets available to LE only. It's not anything else, it's the bullet. Yes, a .223, .308, or .300 would do the job on glass with the right bullet. There's no doubt about it. I haven't heard of any problems in the LE community with these rounds (not that there aren't any, though).
To Pat: Thanks for the ammo assist, if you can pull it off. I'm buying a scanner today, so look for more articles on here to have pictures included.
To all: On this shotgun thing. Listen, I started out, at eight-years-old, with a 12 gauge. I was shooting trap and hunting with a shotgun before I did much else. I've probably done, collectively, MORE shooting with a shotgun than with a rifle. I like shotguns. Love ‘em, gotta have ‘em. I've never shot anything BUT a 12 gauge, and never will -- unless it's a 10 gauge!
To Nathan: Kodiak and Mr. Bain are right. NEVER load for self-defense work, on or off duty. Massad Ayoob did a great piece (I copied and saved it for posterity) on what happens in court to people who shoot other with handloaded ammunition. As much as "I" reload my own, on my Dillon XL 650, I never use anything but Remington Golden Saber, Hornady XTP, or Federal Hydra-Shok in my "defense" guns. (There's nothing wrong with PMC Starfire and Winchester SXT ammo, either.) And if you shoot, shoot to kill, for litigation's sake. Dead men don't testify. If you've got a reason to shoot in the first place, you have a reason to kill -- so do it. Yeah, the family might bring suit against you, but the perpetrator sure won't be testifying against you. And for what it's worth, Nathan, "I" thought you were asking about factory loads.
To SGT Gimmellie: Yes, the glass topic is a good one. I have... uh, I mean... "a friend" has... some military AP bullets pulled from some GI 7.62x63mm ammo. This "friend" might just have to do some of his own testing. Anybody got some extra windshields laying around?
===
Okay, I saved this for last.
Last night, I went to the local opening of Saving Private Ryan. I'm VERY well aware of the Sullivan Act (there's also a movie on the Sullivan brothers if you folks are interested -- it's an old one, though).
One, up front, there's a "gratuitous Hathcock shot." I saw it coming (no pun intended), and likely you folks will, too. However, the rest of the movie is very good.
The opening scenes of the beach assault are... well... um... "attention getting."
This is the best war movie I have ever, ever, seen. Period.
I wish, from the bottom of my heart, that world leaders would see this movie and take it to heart... but of course, they won't.
Further, my personal feelings about Mr. Clinton were exacerbated by the opening beach scenes in the movie.
I cried like a baby at the end of the movie. Several times DURING the movie (especially the beach scenes), I felt uncomfortable (I rarely feel uncomfortable at movies). All the !@#%# &* kids we get here on Sniper Country (when of course they SHOULD NOT BE HERE), should see this movie. All the "gee, it'd be so ‘cool' to go to war" rug-rats might wake up and get a dose of "life" if they saw this movie.
Scott Powers -- some EXCELLENT scenes of bolt-work by the left-handed American sniper.
The recent comments about "fast shooting" -- well, this movie reinforced what I've always known, that you can never EVER have "enough" firepower. Period. And on what the Chandler brothers have been harping on, about the STUPID "tri-burst" feature on the current M16A2 rifles... well, I think you'd agree, against a German MG42, "tri-burst" anything is f**king RETARDED!!! I kept thinking, during the beach scenes, and the scenes in the town later in the movie, how "STUPID" the "tri-burst" concept is! THE UNITED STATES ARMY DOESN'T GET IT, THAT YOU DO "NOT" CORRECT FOR A DEFICIENCY IN "TRAINING" BY USING A PIECE OF EQUIPMENT OR BY MODIFYING ONE!!! I don't know anything about current Marine training, but I know that they used to be BIG on good old-fashioned marksmanship. The Army's marksmanship program, as I've said a hundred times, "sucks!!!"
And concerning the book I'm reading, On Killing by LTC Dave Grossman... well, the "inability to kill" was driven home several times in this movie -- though there was a lot of killing, rest assured. And I think it's very obvious, in the beginning beach assault scene, how you just MIGHT be a little too busy, on occasion -- trying to just stay alive -- to shoot back.
I'll probably see it again, but not yet. It was just too much for me, and I need some time to "get my mind right" (to paraphrase Strother Martin in Cool Hand Luke). If you see it, drop me a line, catch me on ICQ (539642) or on AOL Instant Messenger.
And boy! That sniper kid, left-handed as he was, could really SHOOT! And he had that left-hand use of a right-hand bolt down COLD!!! Wow! Also note, during the "crosshair" scenes, how he WAS applying proper lead on running targets and how the "targets" were getting hit where he was aiming. Dale Dye was the technical adviser on the movie (had a scene in it, too). If you know Dale Dye, and his background, you'll recognize him and appreciate his attention to detail. Tom Hanks will probably get another Academy Award (nomination, at least) for this movie. I was pretty depressed after the movie, went to the store afterward, bought some chocolate fudge brownie ice cream, came home and ate it as I reflected on the movie.
You owe it to yourselves to see it at least once.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 12:49:34 (EDT)
I'll be honest. I've never taken the whole "secondary cone of glass"
concept very seriously, in terms of being dangerous to anyone behind the
glass. I've just never really believed that the little pieces of glass
would pick up very much of the bullet's velocity---so even if they did
hit someone, they might create some small cuts, might do damage to an unprotected
eye, but wouldn't have the juice to kill or badly would anyone. I thought
it was one of those old wives' tales that go around the shooting community
sometimes. I guess you're telling me it's not. Can you give me some more
info...places to read up, actual examples, etc? Thanks.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 13:24:27 (EDT)
TorF - You are absolutely right about muzzel velocity. Many reloaders push their rounds too fast. Point of interest, bullets melt in the barrel and if the velocity is so high that they can't begin to solidify, then your accuracy and terminal ballistics go to hell. Also, it is interesting to see a bullet leave a smoke trail, then distentigrate mid flight!
Matt - That glass is fatal close up. When I was teaching VIP protection in Saudi Arabia, we would shoot the hell out of a car with manakins inside to show the damage. Main point in that exercise was to get the CAT teams OUT of the target car as fast as possible. I'm triing to get cars and other pieces of glass for a high speed video session for our students. If all works out, I'll let you guys know what I've got. Don't know about a release of the tape. The Gov't is funny about that stuff. From past shots, I can say the cone is about 60 degrees wide and runs almost 90 degrees to the pane of glass. There is slight shift on some glass to match the angle of the bullet. I'll confirm with the video and get back. Guys I'm old and forget things. STAY ON MY BUTT over this OK.
Russ - Once the lefty has the sequence down, he can actually become faster at bolt manipulation due to leverage. Had a SEAL with his left handed bolt go through the course. He changed to one of our guns and liked the right handed bolt better!
My two cents, reload and use trick weapons for paper. If you use self defense, you need two things, factory ammo and factory weapon. Otherwise you will LOSE.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 17:21:43 (EDT)
If it is true that I must contact the local LE in order to obtain a bullet class that I can use in defense of my family.
I am more apt to take your advice if I understood the reasoning behind your statement. I currently lean toward the most accurate least penetrating round I can get my hands on. But if your saying that with a slight modification I may assure that my family maintains a father image in the home after he has capped some @##hole who has just tried to rape his wife or daughter or his 7 year old boy.
I think this type of info is very pertinent to this site. It allows those of us not paid to be in this position to ferret out data that will make us who are law biding, sensible/cognizant and responsible individuals from doing something stupid. Please arm us with details.
This subject deserves more thought than does the 9mm vs 45cal, 308 vs 30-06, naugahyde vs chickenbones discussion.
Please,
Oh by the way the movie Mr. Taylor speaks of is not only exceptional in detail and getting it's point in place and hit home, it brings the facets of war into a very crisp perspective (read: I too was wiping tears at the end.)
But I have a ? how come the guy used it his left hand to operate
the bolt, but used his right eye to focus? Is this common among left handed
people or was I mistaken? Check it out! (yes I one of those geeks who has
stuff like this pop out at them all the time.)
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
In the Dominion, of Virginny USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 21:07:16
(EDT)
Bill - Your comment on the deflection of rounds through brush has been proven a number of times and is one of the reasons we teach our snipers to use "stand off" as much as possible. Between the deflection and obscuring muzzle signature, as well as confusing the eye for an observer, it is the only way to go.
On the glass thing. What do you guys think of placing a medium between the glass and target and another behind the target to register glass cone location and spread during the video? I was thinking of using the plastic wrap type material for minimal bullet deflection. How about giving me some thoughts on this matter.
Hold hard guys and I'll try to use complete thoughts next time!!!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 21:21:52 (EDT)
Just came back from seeing "Saving Private Ryan" myself. Simply the best, most realistic (read: graphic, but not gratuitously---just accurately) depictions of combat I have seen, and a lot of very serious, pertinent issues brought up. And yes, my wife was telling me to be quiet because I was on the verge of screaming obscenities in the theater at Corporal Umpum. I agree fully with the guy who said that all the punk kids and national leaders, or anyone who takes war lightly, or sees it as "glorious" ought to be forced to sit through this movie.
I'll look for an arty link for you, Russ. Got a couple ideas.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 21:25:59 (EDT)
I like reloading and recommend it to those who shoot a lot and wish to cut their costs. Not for defense loads, however. The "cost" of using handloads for defensive purposes is very high, especially when compared to the cost of a few hundred rounds of good factory defense loads. I recommend shooting the same factory load as the police in your area (assuming your jurisdiction allows you to even shoot hollow points) so that no prosecutor or plaintiff's lawyer can claim that you are using more force than necessary or are intending on causing or inflicting more pain or suffering than necessary (if it's good enough for the cops in your area, it's good enough for you).
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Antyime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 23:55:19 (EDT)
Many thanks again for your response re: the 6.5mm. I have decided to take your advice and go w/ 6.5mm/08.
I spent all day today w/ Mr. Gerald Boutin. This gentleman is an incredible human being as well as a master riflesmith and shooter. I could sit and listen to Hook talk all day long. And watching him work on rifles is like watching Michaelangelo paint chaple ceilings.
He said go w/ 6.5mm/08, as well. So that's it. All that remains is to locate a steel TG/Floorplate assembly and I'll have all the parts.
Thanks again, TorF.
Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 01:02:26 (EDT)
SPLASH OUT!!! FIRE FOR EFFECT!!
Sgt. G <SEMPER FI!!!>
USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 08:42:09 (EDT)
Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Awake and Alive on a Gloriouw Sunday Morning in, Magnificent West Virginia
USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 09:09:33 (EDT)
To Tom <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 10:28:47 (EDT)
1) Determine whether you may use hollow-point defense loads in your jurisdiction. 2) Determine what the local police are using. 3) Purchase a sufficient amount of these factory loads to run through your gun to satisfy yourself that you will have no jams, etc. 4) Use only these factory loads in your gun for self-defense.
Whatever the cost savings you realize from handloads, it won't be enough to pay your lawyer. . .
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Here, and There USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 11:46:02 (EDT)
Great site keep up the good work.
chris morse <morse@jnlk.com>
paulsboro, NJ USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 13:23:57 (EDT)
Kodiak
USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 13:56:52 (EDT)
DUH!!!!!!!! I would NEVER use handloads in actual duty!!! I went
to school and earned a degree in Criminal Justice. I took a lot of law-type
classes. Yes, be assured that I am well aware that I would get me and my
department sued like all hell get out. What I MEANT, as I am sure some
of you know............Glaser, COR-BON, Hydrashock, ------loads, weights,
etc..............I am interested in .40 S&W, to be fired out of a Glock
22. Also, are there any "LE friendly" modifications that may be safely
made to a Glock besides some grips and night sights?
I am going to see "Saving Private Ryan" this afternoon. I am aware
that it has reviewed great. My grandfather went in with the 1st wave at
Omaha Beach on June 6th, 1944. He later participated with Patton's drive
across France and the subsequent Battle of the Bulge. I am ready to see
a realistic WW2 movie. I heard my grandfather's stories so will watch the
movie with a critical eye. Like I said, I have heard good things.-------Thanks
Russ for the advice via e-mail. I will take it to heart.
Talk to you later and good shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 14:27:15 (EDT)
Sorry, I won't mention anything about the use of a sh....! oops I almost used a bad gun reference.
I am always learning on this site, sorry I am so blunt with my ?'s.
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
spun up, in Virginny USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:10:50 (EDT)
AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY
Jim ( aka fireball)
jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Cowboy, USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:20:36 (EDT)
Cheers everyone,
Jesse <spectr17@earthlink.net>
dexterity, challenged in SoCal - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:22:34
(EDT)
The investigators for the agency at which I work carry Glock 22s. I've talked to our senior investigator a lot on the .40 and the Glock, and other than getting night sights, there's nothing else that he would recommend.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:48:01 (EDT)
As promised, I tried dipping the bullets of issue ball ammo, 5.56 this time, in spraycan moly lubricant. The ogive on the bullet didn't leave much exposed to be coated, so there wasn't much moly touching the bore. Therefore, inconclusive results. Another shooter had something called "Miss Molly" (?) of spray moly. He didn't seem to think it was doing any good either. My 7.62 155gr load has more exposed ogive, so we'll see with them.
Bone head move of my shooting career yesterday. Shot a 60 shot ISU 300m match with a new club-owned 5.56 bolt rifle, but neglected to confirm the lots of ammo to be fired. Shot a 543 with five repeat five differant lots. It would print in one place for a bit then move somewhere else ... Couldn't figure it out. The top three shooters had 577, 571 and 569 in a steady breeze.
There was a comment that the 6PPC is doing well in ISU shooting. Is this more widely seen? It has all the potential to lick any 5.56 or 7.62.
Finally, the court-ordered counteroffer period has passed on our 1 square mile of land for a range (the one with the eskers and terminal moraine). All that remains is to sign the cheque and contract for the bulldozers! For any Western Canadian shooters, we'll have a field shoot (2, 5, 600 yds) on the 1930's range layout in mid-September. All bull(seye) shooters welcome.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 17:17:58 (EDT)
It is the more powerful 6mm BR thats used for the ISU-events. 105-107gr VLD pushed to 2800fps. Norma has this as a factoryload with molycoated bullets.
The US-shootingteam tried the PPC some years ago with one of the
BR-gurus (Walt Berger?) as consultant. It didn't prove too successful.
Too much winddrift.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 17:57:21 (EDT)
Russ: The Blackstar process itself does not taper the bore, it merely removes tool marks, however, they offer a tapered bore barrel. Accumax II, I believe.
Nathan: All the one-shot-stop info i've seen points to the 135gr
Cor-Bon.
andrew <wdmbell@aol.com>
austin, tx USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 19:13:24 (EDT)
I'm sure that Lt Hawkins isn't counted because in WWII, as now, officers didn't hold the sniper MOS. He may've been a great shot, had the most "tricked" rifle in the world...but in the eyes of the Corps, he wasn't a sniper unless they say he was. This is just speculation on my part, but I feel confident in it. Simple enough?
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 19:58:05 (EDT)
The "Tigers" are modyfied russian T34, just like in Kelly's Heroes.
The SPRyan filmcrew actually shot some scenes with a real, genuine,
working Tiger 2 (King Tiger) from the Samour-museum in France. These scenes
have unfortunatly not been included in the film.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 21:21:20 (EDT)
If reading it from BlackStar's own website isn't good enough for
you, call Mark Stousse and ask him directly. Tell him I referred you to
him. Then come back here and report on your enlightenment.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 01:53:22 (EDT)
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/sbg1/film.htm
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 02:39:07 (EDT)
Not to change the subject too far - I just bought a new scope for my tactical rifle and I was wondering about some opinions on rings/base type. Standard turn-in or Weaver style? One piece or two piece base?
I am also having trouble finding Black Hills ammo. Does anyone know
of a supply house that carries the ammo?
Brent <brenting@juno.com>
Shreveport, La USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 02:50:15 (EDT)
One thing's for sure -- I really got the bug to fire up the ol' M1
Garand again, after seeing this movie. It was great! M1s were EVERYWHERE!!!
(happy sigh) Oh, and I just loved all those clip-ejecting "PING!" sounds,
during the firefights. Music to my ears. Not tactical, to be sure, but
definitely full of nostalgia.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 02:54:52 (EDT)
That "ping" sound took me back to a better time, as well. The ping of an M1 clip and the smell of Hoppes #9 have more to do with my childhood than baseball OR apple pie! (For that matter, listening to that BAR chug along made me nostalgic, too!) The only thing that was missing was for someone to toss an empty clip on the deck in the middle of a close quarters fight. "HE'S EMPTY------OH S***, HE'S NOT!!!
No complaints on the technical aspects from me, either. The only
thing I would point out is that I've shot Thompson SMGs fairly extensively
(got a '28 myself), and Capt Miller was doing pretty well with his at fairly
long ranges (for an open bolt weapon)!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 05:32:48 (EDT)
Oh, and since we're on a Saving Private Ryan roll at the moment...
I have to say... I thought the "tanks are coming, oh s**t!" scene... (hearing
them LONG before seeing them) was scarier than ANY, "ANY" Friday the
13th/Halloween/Scream/Slash 'em & Thrash 'em flick that any horror
movie director has EVER made. Fear? Yeah... THAT scene was "fear." Oh,
and THEN the tanks showed up! No, give me Jason in a hockey mask anyday
over THAT "here they come" scene!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 06:53:49 (EDT)
Very good.
http://private-ryan.eb.com/
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 07:06:50 (EDT)
Take care
al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 08:46:09 (EDT)
Grand Pa,
Great to have you back! I thought you said you didnt have anything
to add! a Gillie walker...mmmm now that could extend my coyote hunting
another 10 years.
Jim,
Whats the elevation out in Wyoming where the shoot will be held?
I'am at 1450ft above sea level here. Will the difference effect my zero
very much?
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 09:58:49 (EDT)
Dave: You are right about one armed shooting! I was only taking into account function and reliability, not the possibility of being wounded. But, just to add to the argument, it is not at all hard to cycle an action single armed with a pump. Of course, you will have to lower the shot gun from your shoulder to do this, but then again, if your strong arm is wounded, you ain’t going to be using a good offhand position anyway! But, for arguments sake, I’ll give you this one. A semi certainly does have its advantages. Then again, were I wounded, the shotgun would hit the dirt and out would come the handgun. I shoot better weak hand anyway!
Russ, you said: "Scott Powers -- some EXCELLENT scenes of bolt-work
by the left-handed American sniper. " Russ old boy, I have long ago come
to the conclusion that if you ain’t left handed, you are WRONG! I can not
wait to see this movie. Am I right in assuming the characters are in my
old Division, the 29th? Hooraahh….
By the way, I have come to love a right handed bolt. If prone, I
do not even need to let go of the stock. I just use my support hand to
operate the bolt.
Matt: Secondary projectiles from glass are deadly serious. They are real. The issue though, were I a police sniper, would be this: Is a hostage better off dead, or blind? Glass will lose its velocity very quickly, but for the first few feet, it can certainly injure anyone it hits. I think if the situation were bad enough, the shooter would have to weigh very quickly how much "collateral" damage was acceptable. In other words, if the perp looked to be about to start shooting, or was shooting, all bets are off. Drop him and worry about the bystanders later. Its a tough world. Being partially blind is better than being totally dead. Crappy choice, but a real one.
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 10:28:08 (EDT)
Anyway, This is what I wanted to tell you about: at the end of the first day, I decided to take advantage of the sniper range and get in a little practice. I was testing a new load and things went well to 400 yards. The air was dead calm. Not a leaf was a blowing. Nothing stirred, not even a mouse. The 200 to 400 yard targets are all slightly down slope and somewhat protected by trees. Wind is a factor, but at these short ranges, the shots are cake.
I move up to the 500 yard target and proceeded to miss four time! I couldn’t buy a hit! Low left. I hold right edge, miss left again! I adjust 2 moa. Miss Left! The 500 is on the other side of the tree line. Slight rising shot. No visible wind. The bloody flag ATTACHED to the target was limp!
I say to heck with it, and move on to the 600 which is about 50 feet vertically above the 500. First round miss. Add half a click, fire, center hit. Still no visible wind. I am now at 2.5 moa Right and hitting just fine. I transition to the 700 and get a first shot hit, using the same windage dope.
Now, the kicker is, I go back to the 500 and using the same dope, still miss left!!! The wind on the back side of the treeline had to be pushing 10 mph, but there was not indication I could see. On top of this, it only extended to about 20 feet above the level of the 500 yard target and was not actually AT the target.
Moral of the story, as I am sure Rick will tell everyone in a laughing voice: It ain’t the wind you see kiddies, it is the one you don’t!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 11:04:51 (EDT)
I'll agree with the MOS/Duty Slot part, but 1Lt. Hawkins was the leader of the Scout Sniper Platoon, Headquarters Co., 2nd Marine Division. My dad was in the Commo Platoon and ate breakfast with him. Pop says he was put in the Sniper Platoon for a while when one of their guys got really sick, but in the end he was glad to be in Commo. Hawkins' snipers lost 50% on Betio. He also said that he didn't like running 8 miles before breakfast every morning.
Lance M. Johnston <sgtlmj@dmci.net>
Jonesville, MI United States of America - Monday, July 27, 1998 at
11:42:46 (EDT)
By the way, I did a DCM shoot with one of the afore mentioned Marine
guys and beat him by a few points!
Roy
Roy Thomason <thomason@cos.saic.com>
Out West, USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 11:45:25 (EDT)
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Here, there, etc, ???????? USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 16:17:37
(EDT)
IT WASN'T ME! Look back at the post again! I saw nothing wrong with
the Springfield sniper rifle he was using (although I wouldn't necessarily
have noticed if there HAD been something wrong), and I made no comment
to the effect that there WAS anything wrong with it! I think it was Scott
who made that comment...Scott, if it wasn't you, sorry to falsely accuse
you!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 18:48:07 (EDT)
Gramps - I hate to burst your bubble, but the new barrels are thick only past the front sight. The rest of the barrel is just as thin as before. They couldn't mount the 203 on the new thicker versions, so their solution to the problem was to thin down the barrel instead of new mounts.
Have fun guys, I'm going to see SPR and see what's wrong with the 03 in the movie. It was my first sniper rifle!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:23:58 (EDT)
Oh man, I think you just dated yourself! Ha ha ha ha....
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:33:18 (EDT)
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:41:37 (EDT)
Wound Ballistics Review did good tests vs. glass, and for example in .300 Win found the Sierra 200gr Gameking worked much better than the match loadings like the 168gr Sierra. They shot through 737 windshield glass as part of the test, very interesting and confirmed the comments here about the danger of flying glass.
Also I've heard the claim that moly coatings make it harder for the glass to get a "bite" into the bullet's jacket and fragment the bullet, but I've never seen any sort of gard data on the matter.
Rick: I understood that 1 in 9" was about what was wanted for the SS109/M855 style but that the the 1 in 7" for the '16A2 was needed to stabilize the longer tracer bullets. The M193/M855 issue continues to draw some heated debate these days, but what's done is done and the soldier or Marine as always has to make do with what he can.
Russ: I came a way with the impression that Chandler really liked the full auto feature on a '16 as a spotter's weapon, but I don't remember that he thought it was the right answer for all troops... I'll have to scan through DFA V again when I get a chance...
Time to exfil this AO 'til I see SPR...
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:45:22 (EDT)
On the M16/M16A2. I never understood why they didn't just beef up the barrel and leave the twist rate and bullet alone. I believe NATO is moving toward less leathal projectiles as a result of the urging of various authorities. The guy I mentioned in a previous post (I think his name is Knoible or some thing similiar) was really pushing for an overly stable bullet a few years back. The medical community of course was all behind him. Understandable as they have to fix up the mess we make. Still, if it is my but in the woods, give me something other than Rick's Hypodermic needle!
Bain: I got to fondle your AT1-M24 for a couple of minutes this weekend.
I had forgotten just how much I liked that thing. Schweeeet! Also, I will
gladly forgive the B&L Tactical scope it's 1/4 minute turrets. Man,
that thing is excellent! Only the fact that you area lawyer kept me from
obsconding with it!
Scott <xring>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 20:30:10 (EDT)
Gramps - RATS thought I would have some fun with someone older than myself. You're too fast for me old man!
Scott - We'll get Mr. Bain over to the "bolt guns only" in a little
while. That's if Gramps doesn't keep incouraging the "old way" of doing
things.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 21:51:22 (EDT)
Andrew says mine will have the new/improved adjustable
buttstock, that wont have the gap problem, that fouls up
the rear sight bag...
screw patience, I want it now... :)
Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
World Center, Microsoft USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 22:00:20 (EDT)
Rick: Give up the M21/25? Never! I've always been, and always will be, a gas man. The wife says it's my diet though. . .
"Ole Dutch Oven" Bain
P.S. - "SPR" was outstanding. This film is Hanks' and Spielberg's finest work to date. It was, from my limited knowledge, historically and technically accurate. It was also pro honor and country. I believe the final message was not for just one character in the film, but all of us who live in free countries. Ask yourselves the same questions. What are you answers? Will you change, because of what you answered?
This film should be thought provoking, and it should change the way
you approach life for the better. It may be the most significant and relevant
film of the decade, if not the century.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Somewhere, over the rainbow, USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 00:55:48
(EDT)
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Deep in the South, USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 07:32:15 (EDT)
Gramps, keep writinig, no matter what anybody says about what an old coot you are. I enjoy your commentary.
Will. I thought we already did have to fill out an AFT # 7 form to buy a slingshot thanks to Billiam and Hilliam Klinton (dorks - of the first caliber).
AL
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz.worldnet.att.net>
woodchuck Heaven, Ohio USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:03:53 (EDT)
What a kalidascope of emotions!
I have spent the whole time sence I left the theatre (save when I was asleep) pondering those emotions. I will have to see it again, in the theatre, somthing I never do, usuelly I'll just get the video.
I just found out that a friend's father was on that beach at that time. I'm not sure his health is up to seeing SPR but I am planning to make a special effort to speek with him and, as I do with all veterans, thank him for preserving our way of life.
Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Sitting here with moist eyes in Respectful, West Virginia USA - Tuesday,
July 28, 1998 at 08:12:43 (EDT)
Dave: The shots through a 737 probably weren't through the windshield but one of the side windows or cabin windows. The windshields directly in front of the pilots are way too thick for almost any round to penetrate. I do Boeings for a living now so this is first hand knowledge for me.
Rick: Bolt guns are for lazy people!!!! :-) It takes a real man to clean semi's and work hard enough to keep his gunsmith happy! Just ask Bain, sometimes he is fairly smart in spite of himself! :-)
Bain: Airport? E-mail? Pictures????
Gunny Rayfield: What the hell do you mean another $50.00 for those ratty rings Bain recommended? Are you two in cahoots? Are ya both after my money? Grrrrrrrrrrrr.....
Gooch, Torsten, where the hell is my arty???????
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Over the rainbow, Southern USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:16:38
(EDT)
al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz.worldnet.att.net>
Woodchuck Heaven, Ohio USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:20:25 (EDT)
1. I need a scope, im interested in US Optics scopes, has anybody anything to say about them?
2. What is the best bullet for .223 cal in medium to long range.
thankju. Sharpshooting, fellas.
Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <magus-is@islandia.is>
IS - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:34:53 (EDT)
Cut out the old stuff or I'll have to go thru midlife crisis again
and buy a new gun.... wait a minute keep it up.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
sooper, dooper USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:39:17 (EDT)
For those who wonder about the shotgun's use as a sniper weapon, check out Scattergun Technology's offering on the subject.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Here, There USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 10:27:26 (EDT)
Of the original men in the 29th that hit the beach on June 6, 1944, only four could be found standing at the end of hostilities. All the others had been wounded or killed during their press across Europe. These four were used as Standard bearers during a ceremony honoring the men of the Division. When ever possible today, each unit (115th, 116th, and 175th) invites its veterans to stop by and share a holiday meal. These men were like gold to us. Each year there are less. I have not been able to see SPR yet, but I am so glad that their story has again been brought to the public eye. Their deeds should not be forgotten. Even though I have been out of the unit for seven years, I still feel pride when ever I think of these fine men, and the Division they fought with. I can say with out a doubt, that like some of you, I will unabashedly shed a tear when I finally get to see the film.
29 LET'S GO!
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 12:50:55 (EDT)
Mr Bain: I just found an FFL dealer to handle my Form 6,
so I'm just finishing filling it out as we speak...
Well, he "said" 90 days, and it's been 10 already... :)
Capt Jeff
"Anything worth having, is worth waiting for" :)
PS: nobody hear has seen, or any data on the D2 Stalker Ghillie?
Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
CenterOfTheWorld, Microsoft USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 14:22:45
(EDT)
Gramps, Thanks for the inspirational words of sagely wisdom.
Russ: Got an answer from McMillan. I'll see if I get the stock back in the next couple of days. For those interested, I believe Mr. Mike McMillan and I came to and agreeable understanding.
Now go one out there and shoot the eyes out of them X-RIngs
al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Fat and Sassy in Bumf**k, Egypt USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 19:35:29
(EDT)
I was under the impression that a round nose style bullet tended to perform better in this type of medium than other bullet styles.Having said that, have any of you out there tried the new Lapua FOREX tactical round (I believe it is called this)?The manufacturer claims this bullet works well in situations that glass or other material has to be shot through first before the bullet impacts the target.
Also,I believe it was Mr. Bain that brought up the subject of using
shotguns for short range sniping.Without getting all wrapped up in the
shotgun discussion again,has anyone also experimented with sabot type munitions
against glass
or any other medium ?
Pertaining to sabots,is anyone aware of this type of munitions being
developed for centerfire rifle cartridges ?I
seem to recall that some firm may have experimented with this concept
during the ACR program several years ago.
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 20:09:47 (EDT)
To Scott: Yes, I know all about the funky things that happen to bullets after they've impacted something. You'll recall, certainly, that I am NOT a subscriber to the "pristine bullet" theory, in that only ONE bullet did all that damage, yet retained something like 98% of its original weight. I agree, the greater distance behind a pane of glass a target is, the greater the odds of the shot being displaced by a significant amount. However, at what distance does this start to matter? Too many variables come into play… thickness of the glass, how many panes of glass, what angle EACH one is on, and so forth. I am not saying that you can just "let fly" and expect miraculous things, but I am saying that if you've lined up the shot as well as anyone on the face of the Earth ever could, then a "good" bullet should give you much better odds of striking the target. Obviously, you still have to stalk into position and then set up the shot.
To Scott: Um, I'm not sure I was reading you correctly. Give soldiers LESS accurate rifles? Boy, Scott, if you'd have been a superior officer of mine and told me something like that, I think I'd have fragged you some night. Hey, whether I would ever be in a sniper slot or not, and issued a "sniper rifle" or not, I'm stating for the record that I want MY rifle to be every bit as accurate as any "sniper rifle." SETTLE for LESS accuracy, just because I'm a grunt??? Give me a "less stable bullet?!!!" SAY WHAT???!!! Now, given how most of the officers in my unit can't shoot to begin with, it would be a waste of good equipment to give them precision rifles and quality ammo. However, anything issued to me damn well better be able to do what "I" can do (regardless of what the RETS range at Camp Dodge, IA, indicates).
To Matt: Sorry, I thought you were the one talking about the '03. Thanks, Jim (Craig), for the correction. Matt, you're my kind of guy -- taking over 80 Marines in your unit to the movie for a little "exposure" and then holding a structured discussion. You're alright in my book, Matt. I'm probably going to see it again tomorrow night. I'll know to take Kleenexes this time.
To Dave: Moly, defeating jacket distortion? Hmmm, interesting. Boy, now THERE'S an experiment waiting to happen. I think some of us should meet at Rick or Jim's place and try some bullet/glass tests. Maybe we could get Black Hills to contribute the moly and uncoated bullets (in loaded ammunition, that is) and then write it up for a posting here? Rick? James? What say you?
=========
On the lighter bullet versus faster twist examination, and the hypodermic
needle comment -- hey, elaborate for me what you want. Am I understanding,
you WANT some unstable piece of ca-ca flying "flippity-flop" through the
air??? I'm just NOT following you on this one, I guess. Please explain.
To Deputy Dave: I echo Mr. Bain's comment on SPR about it being, perhaps, the movie of the century. I know, full well, what you mean about "pondering the emotions" I felt after seeing this movie. I saw it on Friday, when it was released, and it's still bothering me. Now, I'm no John Wayne tough-guy type, but… I usually don't get this shaken. You'll just have to take my word for it. I also "felt" for the CPT Miller character -- though nothing life-threatening in my military career (thus far), I've sure been given more than my share of f**ked-up missions to carry out. Indeed, most of us have. So, I could feel the angst of Miller's character -- needing to get the job done, but often wondering what in the Hell for?
To Mr. Bain: Yes, I agree, I think, now that you mentioned it, that the last comment by CPT Miller was for all of us. I didn't take it that way at the time but, upon reflection, I think you're right. Oh, and thanks for the "subtle" mention of the Scattergun Technology article. "Ahem." Most kind of you.
To Pat: I was most interested in your comments on the Devcon Steel versus the Acra-Glas Gel (with steel). I've always used the latter (gel/steel combination). Did you do any DIRECT comparison, or is this comment of yours "an impression." I want to know if I should abandon the Brownells product for the Devcon Steel, for my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum.
On the Grenier article: I haven't read it yet, and maybe, now, I won't. Thanks for sharing, Jim. I have enough aggravation going on in my life, I don't need to add to it.
To Scott (again): Haven't seen the movie yet? Good. There's still time to get a little "pocket packet" of Kleenex tissues before you go. If Rene' goes with you, take an extra packet, because you won't have enough to share with her.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 20:26:09 (EDT)
Now Russ, don't get me wrong, I want and expect every soldier to carry the most accurate rifle available for combat purposes. Anything less is criminal. The tumbling of the M16 round did not occur while in flight. This is a very persistent myth. The tumbling occured once it hit anything. This is good and bad. If the body was first strike, good. Trauma on a scale worthy of a weapon designed to close and destroy the enemy. If first strike was a branch, twig, leaf, etc. bad. Accuracy went to hell, as evidenced in SEA when aimed shots through the brush seemed to miraculasly miss the target. Many thought this meant that the round was doing damage after impact. No, it meant the round wasn't impacting on the target due to deflection.
Oh well, guess I've thrown in my two cents worth.
PS Gramps - Just had to let you know that I went to the range and shot my assigned M21 for the first time since 88. It was real fun to fire that old sucker, cleaning it was a pain in the butt, and I still wouldn't take it on a stalk!
OUT!!!!!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 21:17:32 (EDT)
Okay, I'm with you (i.e., "on the same sheet of music") as to the
stability problem. If I understand you correctly, you're saying the heavier
bullet in the A2's ammunition is SO stable that it doesn't do erratic things
in the body once impact is made... and you're saying the lighter bullets,
while capable of accuracy, would do nasty things upon impact. Do I have
this right? Maybe I'm so used to non-shooting, low-bidding people influencing
my military weaponry that I've become too sensitive to words like "inaccuracy"
-- but I was starting to think that people on this website had gone daffy
on me! Then, to humor this line of discussion, what would you say is a
"fair" distance for the slower-twist, lighter-weight M16A1s to engage their
targets? I already know what a 69-grainer can do out of a 1:9, and the
80-grainers can sure reach out there if the RPMs are sufficient.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 02:41:15 (EDT)
Russ: Ya mean to tell me that my 55 grain bullets didn't tumble all
over the place when I went rock and roll? Damn, that must mean I missed
on my own!!!!! :-)
ps, SHOTGUN!!!!!!
SPR is the BEST war movie I have EVER seen! Damn, that means Bain was right again, I HATE it when that happens!
Would someone answer that guy about the D2 stalker outfit? I'm curious too!!!!!
Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Yonder, No! USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 08:29:02 (EDT)
TORF,
Where you been buddy?? I would like to know if you have shot any
of the 140gr. Sierra match bullets in the 6.5 and if you have how did they
shoot and fly in comparison to the VLDs? Also would this bullet combo in
a 260 Rem. be fast enough to duplicate the 300 Win Mag. for trajectory
and wind drift. I'am really intrigued with your 6.5 for long range shooting.
I was shooting with a buddy of mine who has a 7mm-08IMP and at 600 yards
he uses 5min. of angle less elevation than I do with my 308. I have a new
Leupold Long Range with the BC so I would like to stay with a round that
would work with the cam.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 09:40:00 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 10:57:28 (EDT)
out
harry <maryld@1st.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 11:42:16 (EDT)
Now has anybody anything to say about US Optics scopes?
sharpshooting fellas.
Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <magus-is@islandia.is>
IS - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 14:42:17 (EDT)
I have a great distaste for non quantifiable (read; opinions) evidence. But my first look at them said yeah great but the expense wasn't justified for my application.
tom
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
back, in the USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 15:13:28 (EDT)
sharpshooting
Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <magus-is@islandia.is>
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 20:12:31 (EDT)
I have purchased one or two things from the Sniper Store. (I won't mention what; we don't always identify ourselves as being from this page so that we can evaluate the people from one can purchase gear and I don't want John to figure out who I am.) Watch closely the amount charged as a "service fee" on your credit card. Be careful also on "shipping and handling."
We (actually, Scott) haven't reviewed their scopes yet, but we probably will soon. (So much gear, so little time to evaluate and write.) Stay tuned on this one.
Jon: As for a good 10 x 40 scope, I'd say B&L Tactical or Mk. IV M3. If these are too expensive, then I'd say Tasco Tactical. Can't say anything about Swaroski or Schmidt & Bender, don't know. Have you thought about the variable power scopes? Do you want mil-dot or duplex? Bullet drop compensator?
Steve: Yes, I noticed the lack of primers in the cartridges too. On another note, the dialog from the Germans during that part of the movie is very interesting. That is, when you can make it out.
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 21:13:49 (EDT)
I also went to see SPR yesterday. I second the "WOW".... I agree with those of you who stated that this is the best modern war movie ever made. Personally, I found it to be very humbling and eventhough I have always been grateful to all veterans for preserving my freedoms and liberties this movie has deepened that gratitude beyond my ability to articulate it. I plan to take James (Jarrett) possibly next week if/when he comes back to town. I will also remember to take along my tie downs to keep him in his chair. He tends to get a little excited with movies like this.
FYI-I have heard grumblings that because the opening scenes are so realistic, it has been causing some vets to (re)seek counceling and "they" (not sure whom that is exactly) is trying to get the movie pulled from the theaters (at least in Az). It's to good for public viewing... So, for those who have been waiting for the crowds to diminish, don't wait.
My thanks and gratitude to all the veterans...
B Davis
Phoenix, Az USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 22:35:05 (EDT)
If you and your observer still plan on going to the class this weekend...enjoy
and have fun. Do an "X" for me.
B Davis
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 22:44:11 (EDT)
Russ, Rick, etc.- I would still like some opinions on scope bases and rings for a 30mm scope. I have the turn-in type on a two piece base. I also have the high rings; these seem two high and I have had to change my cheek weld to use them.
Also on an SPR note - I have never been to a movie until now that there is total silence from the audience at the end of the movie until everyone has left the theater( with the exception of many sobs and sniffles).
Keep sending them downrange
Brent
Brent <brenting@juno.com>
Shreveport, La USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 23:26:29 (EDT)
Jim Craig: En la manana temprano, amigo. Or should I say, "Bis Morgen frueh. Fahren wir nach Neu Mexico."
Wiederlesen!
Bain
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Heading out, to the land of enchantment, USA - Wednesday, July 29,
1998 at 23:43:40 (EDT)
Steve- You're killing me, man!!!! What's this FUBAR with the 1903-A4?
Has anyone experienced shipping problems with Armalite? I ordered
some parts in early April of this year, and was told there was a 6 week
backorder. As of today, parts aren't here and a phone call to Armalite
informed me of a shipping date in September! Geez, you'd think I was ordering
a McMillan stock or something....
Matt
Manhatan, KS USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 01:14:25 (EDT)
To Steve: There are no primers in the cases. I saw that when they "loaded him down."
Drop me a line with the answer on the '03A4. Thanks.
To Bonnie: Locally, we've had a few reports of WW II veterans getting up and leaving the theater during the first half-hour. Not because the movie is bad, but because it's so real. Understandable. If I'd have lived through June 6th, 1944, during the beach assault of the Normandy invasion -- I seriously doubt that I'd want to relive it by seeing it on the silver screen.
To Brent: I don't think I have enough information to help you properly, but let me give you some general guidelines from "my" perspective alone. I don't like one-piece bases unless we're talking "serious" magnums. Even then, it's questionable whether I'll choose to use one. I like the easier access to the loading port of the receiver that two-piece bases afford me. (I'm tall and have big hands with long fingers -- one-piece bases are usually a hassle for me.) I like Burris Signature rings (with appropriate inserts depending on the range I'd be shooting WITH the scope I'd be using). I also like Millett rings. Now, if you've got "big" money (I don't), I'm sure Mr. Bain and others can give you some different choices for mounting systems. On scope height: you may end up having to add an adjustable cheekpiece... but if aesthetics aren't terribly important to you, consider using some foam padding and duct tape to get the right cheek weld that helps you align your shooting eye with the center axis of the scope. If you feel the need to be more specific, you can give me a call.
To Jeremy Lines: Concerning your question on Savage triggers, I can
only surmise that "you must be new in these here parts." (Perhaps others
will enlighten you why I say that.) Refer to the article on tuning Savage
triggers on our Articles and Commentary page.
Timney will eventually come out with their Savage trigger. Another company
has just recently come out with one (a little pricey at around $90 or so,
and they "recommend" that you let them install it) and, of course, M H.
Canjar, in Denver, Colorado, has replacement Savage triggers for sale.
I can't remember the name of the "new" company that's making Savage triggers,
but there's an article on it in Precision Shooting (an issue or two ago).
Oh, and I suppose I should tell you -- I have five Savages. I have
a Savage Striker in .308 Winchester with the AMB; a 112FV in .223 Remington;
a 112BVSS in .22-250 Ackley Improved; a 110FP Tactical in .308 Winchester;
and a 112BVSS-S in .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. (Note: The Ackley and Weatherby
versions are conversions, not production jobs... but they're still Savages.)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 01:55:39 (EDT)
Bottomline, Matt, ArmaLite is playing "catch up" because their stuff
is in demand. Be patient. Not much of an answer, but it's the best (and
most honest) you'll get.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 02:17:12 (EDT)
Mark P. Rudolph
Florida USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 03:06:35 (EDT)
Bain: Damnit man, which mount is the best for the M21/25 SWS????
I'm confused enough with this bolt thingy and the German bipod or what
ever it is they use, (Hi Torsten) :-),
I don't need more confusion from you about mounts!!!!!
Gooch: Did ya leave the planet man?
Gunny Rayfield: No, not $50.00 more on the rings until Bain answers!
Out Here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
Over yonder, USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 08:07:17 (EDT)
Bain: i would prefer mil-dots on my scope, i dont know how to use them, but everything i have heard about them says thei are wery good. I own a Tasko 6x40 on my .22LR and i like the scope, does the Tasco Tactical have mil-dots?
sharpshooting fellas
Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <magus-is@islandia.is>
IS - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 08:47:45 (EDT)
RUSS,
The Devcon two part epoxy should be easy to find in any Hardware
store. I've even found it in K-Mart or Wal-Mart stores. You should try
mixing up some Steel Bed and then some Devcon and let them both cure out
and do some tests of your own before you bed the "378". Let me know what
you think. How do you like your 22-250 IMP. I loved mine but shot the barrel
out of it. I then went to a 243IMP. and I think thats even better yet.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 09:51:37 (EDT)
Sorry for the graphics folks, but war is ugly and it ain't a friggin known distance bullseye contest. Competition is competition, war is war. They are not remotely alike. We let the pencil necks mix the two up far too often were equipment decisions are conserned. Like I said, I LOVE the AR15A2 and its 1:7, or 1:7/8 or 1:9 twist. But not for combat! On the other hand, I would not use ANYTHING else for High Power! (that was for you old M14 guys, hee hee).
Let's put paid the the stable/unstable misunderstanding right now. The bullets fired form the early M16 were STABLE in the air and flew true. THEY DID NOT TUMBLE, as so many grade school kids liked to say when I was a young'un. The bullet only destablilized once it entered the human body. The intent was to have a bullet that could shoot more accuratly than the M14, with less recoil, but was just stable enough that when it hit, it went haywire. This is why so light a bullet was accepted. It did horrendious damage for so little a projectile. It was not inaccurate at all and it allowed the troops to carry a huge load of ammo. When we went to the 1:7 twist, we took part of the advantage of the M16 away.
At 40 feet would you rather hit a guy with a 55 grain bullet from a 1:14 twist? Or from a 62 grain round from a 1:7 twist. Which is going to make a real bloody mess? Given my druthers, I'll take the nasty terminal balistics over the kinder gentler ones anytime. That Swiss Bone head and his politically correct, humane bullet theories be damned! It wasn't his ass on the line when he started this whole push with NATO.
Does this make sense now Russ?
Preaching mode off. Soap box put away...
Bill: Yueah, the .338 idea is nice, but there ain't a troop around
who could shoot it accurately. That pip squeek .223 does a damn fine job
for so little a thing, when fired from its intended barrel. By the way,
ALL bullets will tunble when they hit a twig. Contrary to popular opinion,
heavy "brush Busting" round nose bullets have been proven to be no better
at this than thier lighter, pointed bretheran! Sigh...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:16:42 (EDT)
Or do I just bite the bullet and stop molying and get up to 2650
to 2700 fps again? Precision Descisions....
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:23:07 (EDT)
2nd: I wonder if anyone else has qualms about the feel of the plasticy
stocks vs. the warmth of wood? I ain't getting mushy here, I'm just wondering
if the McMillan stocks have the same cold plastic feel as the Choate stock.
I can get a custom laminate for cheaper than a composite with more bells
and whistles(including the bedding.) Haven't heard a technical reason not
to so I thught I would try the touchy feely question.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Pleased to be, in the USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:30:31 (EDT)
I can not entirely blame the ammo as I was the one pushing the envelope. I am so used to how cool the barrel is when shooting moly loads that I forgot about this.
I promise to get you all a good review later this month. I will slow it down and see what these rounds can really do. That .301" group was quite exciting and the potential, given zero user error, could be exceptional.
Also, I just ordered a case of Fed GM2 and will have a good report on that in September. Now if you could only talk Russ into PAYING ME for doing all these reviews for SC, I'd be so happy...
By the way, if you want Fed GM2, Hoplite has the rock bottom BEST
price available. $309.oo per 500. But please, do not order it till I have
MINE! Hahaha.
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:31:37 (EDT)
Have I summarized correctly?
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Pleased to be, in the USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:37:39 (EDT)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre , SD USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 12:41:18 (EDT)
I have seen a couple of posts looking for burlap.
Gun Parts Corp., of West Hurley, NY 12491, tel. 914-679-2417
They sell sets of 2" x 300', brown and OD rolls for 9.95 pr. That's 600' of burlap for ten bucks! I just made a suit with only two rolls, and I have some left over. I bought 10 sets of the stuff. (70lbs shipped!)
Item # SRE-7G Cama Rolls
Lance M. Johnston <sgtlmj@dmci.net>
Jonesville, MI USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 16:17:59 (EDT)
I vas just on the phone talking with all the gun stores that i could
find in the phonebook,,, and nobody had ever heard of mil-dots!!!
I will have to buy my scope from a catalouge or any other source
that would send scopes by mail, i need a Tasco Tactical 10x42 with mil-dots,
does any body have an address, E-mail or web site that i can look into?
I also need to know how much the scope would cost me, the taxes
here in Iceland are realy ugly.
Anybody???
sharpshooting fellas
Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <magus-is@islandia.is>
Iceland - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 16:39:23 (EDT)
Goin' Shootin'g this weekend if my lovely bride lets me go!
AL
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Here, There and Everywhere, Ohio USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 18:09:59
(EDT)
Tom Scott (Too many Scotts here) About your Wannabe statement. I just want to meet this flaming hairballed idiot who knew and was going to get shot and decides to stand on one leg. You can really let your imagination run wild with this. Think about it!
Well my Sweetie just got home. Time for dinner and other things. Imagine fellas!
AL
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz.worldnet.att.net>
Still Here Suckin'Wind in, Ohio USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 18:26:32
(EDT)
Two questions: What's up with this "Obermeyer" reamer? Are the manufacturers
of reamers subject to same legal bullshit that forced rifle makers to put
excessive freebore in their barrels?
Greg in PA <gbras@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 21:02:29 (EDT)
thanx Sgt. G.
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 21:16:27 (EDT)
Sgt. Gimmellie, find one of those big Snap-on tool trucks, they have preset and adjustable torque drivers that are as close as you are going to get to passing the three ball bearing test. My 3/8" drive torque ratchet was about $200 so the fixed driver should be under $100. in a world of shit and good shit, snap-on is good shit.
Al, I just got back from vacation and found your program in the mail,
thanks and I will get that letter back to you asap.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 02:17:51 (EDT)
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
All, Over USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 04:40:15 (EDT)
Example: I just pulled my Leupold one piece base from my PSS. I removed
the rear screw first and the base immediately sprung up about .020ths!
This much bending could easily have affected the alignement of the scope.
It most certainly stressed the action. I plan on replacing the one piece
base with the Mk4 base and ring set. I will probably have to shim the rear
base to get it level with the front. The lesson here: ALWAYS check your
bases for squareness! I assumed the prior owner had done this. Hopefully
once rectified, my problem with the VX-III LR M3 will go away.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 09:50:22 (EDT)
The comments on knock down power reminded me of this and it goes to this point: We have all over the years been subject to a lot of information that has been passed through history and accepted as fact. If repeated enough, it becomes "true". The gun media is very guilty of this. They just repeat what they have heard for years. "Knock down power", particularly in handguns, borders on hoax. With out starting another arguement on the topic, handgun bullets generally put a person down by rapid loss of blood pressure, or deflation of the lungs. All of those I know who have been in pistol fights had one general comment to make: "What did the guy do after I shot him? The same thing he did BEFORE I shot him." In otherwords, keep shooting!
I bring up the above not to stir up the handgun controversy again, but to hopefully highlight why we have to take things like Knock Down Power with a grain of salt.
Sorry for taking up so much space. Slow day here...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 10:05:28 (EDT)
GREG,
I understand your frustration on trying to have a barrel chambered
for a particular round. Once again AL can probably answer this better,that
is if he's done with his "HOMEWORK" the sly dog. I've been told that most
reamers are cut to the standard or min. SAMI specs so the throat will be
a "Standard" length not cut for a specific bullet. Some gunsmiths have
reamers special made for a certain caliber and bullet design but they are
for a certain application only. The "OBERMEYER" reamer may well be one
of these.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 12:05:14 (EDT)
After all, once out of their jurisdiction, they're just like
any other citizen, right? And they were in Washington, D.C., home
of the nation's most restrictive gun laws, right?
By the way, since when did LE officers quit being "civilians"?
They can quit their job any time they want to, unlike military personnel.
Scott
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 12:18:59 (EDT)
Sgt. G.
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.com>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 16:27:33 (EDT)
Also: 200% casualties in a rifle company, from Normany 'til VE day, weren't uncommon. I read a book called "Band of Brothers," about E Co., 506th Infantry (I think...have to check). They dropped into Normandy the night before the invasion, and fought across Europe. In that time, they suffered roughtly 200% casualties, as I recall, and they weren't unusual. So if he found that unrealistic, he's out to lunch.
RE: the discussion of terminal ballistics for service ammo. Hey, if you can't have hollow points or soft points, you oughta at least have something that makes about seven sharp turns in the body. If it punches straight through, you have a small permanent cavity that's as long as the body was on its axis of travel. If it gets inside and whizzes around until it stops, the permanent cavity is still small, but it's much, much longer. That means more bleeding, which oughta mean he's down that much faster----a good thing, in my book! If it doesn't make turns, then I'd be happy if it flipped over and over while it ricocheted around....making a "keyhole" looking permanent cavity. Again---bigger, meaning more bleeding, meaning he's out of the picture faster. As far as "unstable" bullets and accuracy---the Corps has always fired the service rifle out to 500 m, and as far as I know, there hasn't been any sudden drop in scores since we went to the heavier bullet and faster twist rate. So that doesn't concern me.
Regarding acceptable accuracy for a service rifle: most (MOST, fellas----dont'
get too wrapped up in it!) basic infantrymen don't do a lot of shooting
out past 300 m in combat. If it's good enough to hit a man-sized target
at 500, it's PLENTY accurate enough for most purposes.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 16:43:23 (EDT)
Yep, you're right about "knockdown" power, of course. Only knuckleheads (and there are plenty out there) interpret the term literally. Still, those who do need people like us to "fix" them!
As for the good General's quote...you're right, although at the time
it was uttered, he was absolutely correct!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 18:01:52 (EDT)
Greg,
I realize that you are talking about a .300 Win. Mag. in a Winchester action, but let me comment on the .308 Obermeyer reamers and Remington actions for the rest of the viewers. Some of this may apply to your situation. I am not familiar with the .300 Win Mag Obermeyer, but it may have the same features as a .308 Win. I own a .308 Obermeyer reamer and blueprint.
Besides throat length, the throat diameter spec is tightened up and this spec is more important than throat length. Our .308 bullets (Sierras) are exactly .3080" (7.823mm) in diameter, and the Obermeyer reamer cuts the throat to .3085" (7.835mm) diameter. Assuming a perfectly concentric cartridge (bullet/case) is in the chamber then the bullet could not be more than .0025" (.0635mm) out of concentric with the barrel. A Remington extractor holds the rim on one side and the very strong ejector plunger is pushing hard on the other side, and this does nothing good for cartridge/barrel alignment. The larger the throat the more the bullet will angled into the side of the barrel. This causes a lop sided, off balance, non concentric bullet to emerge from the barrel. This is a poor way to start (and end) the life of an excellent bullet.
I don't have a "factory" .308 Win. print handy so I can't tell you exactly what the throat diameters are. But I'm sure they are much looser than this fine custom Obermeyer type reamer. In the above paragraph I did not mention the cartridge neck/chamber neck spec as an alignment feature because they are darn loose and do not come into play.
Your Obermeyer chamber will give you all the accuracy possible in that particular area. Of course the chamber is only one of many variables in rifle accuracy. But a good chamber gives you a very good foundation on which to work.
My reamer is from JGS and the .308 Obermeyer is a stock item there.
As an aside. The August Precision Shooting has an article on the all new H. S. Precision rifle. It is a combination of Remington and Winchester. Round action with sandwiched recoil lug. Winchester safety and bolt release. Coned boltface and Sako type extractor. This sounds like the way Remington should be making them.
That's all for now.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 19:37:31 (EDT)
Russ - yes I called today for that catalog but exploring my options!
Sarge sneaks back to his hide and waits for return fire!
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 20:38:35 (EDT)
Assuming you have the M3 with the ballistic cam for .300wm/220grMK@2600fps you have to make some small compromises if you want to match it up with Sierra 6.5mm bullets in .260rem. None of the Sierra MK's have the BC of the 220gr .30 cal MK. It is possible to match the trajectories very close though. Get the 6.5mm Sierra MK with the highest BC in the 140gr class. Today they make a new 140gr MK SuperMatch, 142gr MK and 144gr MK. I'm not quite sure wich one at the moment who has the highest BC. The best 6.5mm should have a BC around .570 compared to the .30cal/220gr BC .630. To make the comeups on the M3 as accurate as possible with the .260rem you have to push the 6.5mm bullet a little faster than the .30cal at 2600fps. Study a ballistic table. If you push a 6.5mm with BC .570 to 2700fps and use a 300yds zero, with the ballistic cam on the scope set at 3, you should end up with identical bulletdrop at 1000yds( scope set at 10). At 100 and 200yds the 6.5mm bullet will hit less than .4" low. On the ranges between 300 and 1000yds the 6.5mm bullet will have a slightly higher trajectory than the .30cal. but not more than max. 2.5" at approx. 750yds. before both trajectories ends up with the same point of impact at 1000yds. The differenses in trajetories are so small that they can almost be ignored. Teoretically going for headshots you can ignore the differenses under 300yds and use the mouth as aimingpoint at all ranges from 300 to 1000yds and get a first shot hit. In real life all the other factors like rangeestimating, winddrift, temperature and (shooters) accuracy has a much bigger influence on point of impact.
Lapua and Berger makes 140gr bullets that matches the .30cal/220gr BC of .630. Push these 6.5mm to 2600fps and you can forget the above. The trajectories are almost identical.
One last point. It seems to be easier to get the best accuracy with
the Sierra 6.5mm MK bullets compared with other VLD bullets. The Sierras
also seems to be more accurate in worn barrels.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 20:54:21 (EDT)
Signed, The Knothead or was it Knucklehead.
SPR: Yes what I saw was him having both eyes open and looking across
his body that caused me to believe I had seen the sniper as right eye dominant.
My fault. But why did he grab the Parallax end of the barrell and say 2
click for wind. Does this type of scope have that type of adjustment? Or
was he torqueing the rings to get rid of his single piece scope mount flex
in the action?
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
FR, VA USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 21:16:23 (EDT)
PLease give a newby some help.
Thanks
Sandy <Shiftysand@aol.com>
Margaritaville, KY USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 22:07:18 (EDT)
Thanx for your time:
JOHN KELLER
John Keller <JOHNNYDEATH@prodigy.net
>
Theodore, AL USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 22:26:22 (EDT)
I've noted several people here have and/or used the mark 4 system. Is it worth the extra $? I don't mind paying top dollar for good, functional stuff, but really hate paying $$$ for a name.
To the SC "committee": Thanks for making this site possible. Although
not a military or LEO, (but former Signal Corp officer, if that's safe
to admit), I have a great interest in long range marksmanship and field
shooting. This site is the single most informative source of all the lists,
chat rooms, and other sites that I frequent. I check in daily. Thanks.
Bruce
Bruce Coons <bcoons@seacove.net>
Copperas Cove, TX USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 22:31:31 (EDT)