Sniper Country Duty Roster

July 1998

All: What's wrong with General Reno? She's the only one with cojones in the whole administration. And big ones too. Bill could use a pair when dealing with the Serbs, Iraqis, Chinese, etc..

Nathan: Congratulations. Don't sweat the money. My first job after college was with the U.S. Government for a paltry 12,000 dollars a year. My friends, all students at Georgetown University, School of Foreign Service, thought I was either nuts or lacked the self-worth necessary to get a "real" job (read: Agency, State, NSA, NSC, etc.) Well, they were wrong. Stay true, work hard, be honest. You will achieve your goals. Oh, and here's a latin phrase for you (doubtless misspelled): Illigitemum non carbundum.


P.S. Hey, I didn't do pre-law before getting my law degree so I never learned Latin. What's the point of learning a dead language? You can't really use it pick up live girls. At least not the cute ones.

Mr. Bain <>
Any woman, Anytime USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 00:17:44 (EDT) 

Re. dragg bag's:
Guy's, dragg bag's are a very personal thing. Either you love em or you hate em. Personaly I love 'em cause I grew up with one. You don't drag the damn thing a couple meters behind you, your not pulling a wagon. Disperse your load, and away you go. As long as you cam it up with the rest of you, and stick it between your legs it will never give your pos away. Those of us who have made it through our final ftx know it works. That's my personal opinion gent's, it's not written in stone how you get to your objective.
"Pro Patria"

Bryan <>
Ottawa, Ont Canada - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 00:50:52 (EDT) 

Big ED, The SOCOM is one hell of a weapon but it's big, Real big, did I mention the weapon was big. I had the chance to shoot one and ran a IDPA course with it(not competing just trying the weapon out) It was hard for me to handle because it was big. The weapon is to the same standard has most of the HK's i've had my grubby hands on before. However i would keep my .45USP just because it fits me better. The SOCOM is a good weapon if you have big hands.The guy who owned the one i handled said he loved it and would sell his Harly before he get rid of the weapon.
Stagger <>
Terre Haute, In USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 02:11:45 (EDT) 
Molly Coating .308 Ammo: My neighbor and I use the Molly kit from Midway and are very pleased with the results. We use 168 grain HPBT Sierra Match Kings ahead of 45 grains of 748 in Lake City Brass with CCI primers. We load these on a Dillon 550. With this load we can put 10 rounds inside a quarter at 100 yards with either weapon. I use a Ruger M77MKII VT and he uses a Savage FP110 Tactical. Fortunately for us, both our rifles like the same ammo. We have not chronographed this load, but there are no signs of excessive pressure and the paper targets, steel gongs, and prairie dogs haven't complained.

To Molly Coat or not to Molly Coat: I'm a firm believer in Molly Coating bullets for the type of shooting I do. I LOVE to shoot and I LOVE to shoot a lot. The Molly coating keeps my barrel cool in target rich environments and removes the requirement for frequent cleaning during a day of shooting.

I hope this info helps some of you prairie dog and paper/steel target snipers.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 02:16:07 (EDT) 

Hey guys, if you're shooting an M1 or M1A, you might want to take a look at Dick Culver's review of the Otis Breech-to-Muzzle gun cleaning kit. Dick used to be a regular visitor here at Sniper Country, but he's too good to talk to us anymore (note the obvious attempt at inflicting guilt). If you can ever get Dick to talk about what he knows on the subject of optics, well... have a tape recorder handy, because you won't want to miss any of what he says. Anyway, this cleaning kit used to be called the Kit and Caboodle kit, so most of you will recognize it as such. Still, having an M1 and knowing it's better to clean from the breech end, I'm likely going to get one of these things.

To James: I agree with you and Rick... some of the MOST beautiful women I've ever seen are Latin ladies.

To Kodiak: I could give you an eight-digit grid coordinate for both ranges, but... you'd probably be a LOT better off just spending a few bucks on... "a map." Beyond this, send me an E-mail, I'll give you my phone number, and you can run up your long-distance bill... but you know what? I'm going to use "a map" to give you directions. :-) Or, if you're REALLY slick... you can use some of the free mapping software available on the Internet ("Map-It!" for one example) to plot your course. Which Chicago suburb did you move to?

To Rick: You made an earlier comment about bad brass (and wildcats). As a handloader, it really annoys me that even the "best" names in the business, in this country, don't put better care into the construction of component brass. In and of itself, brass can make or break a decent load.

To SGT Gimmellie: TWO pages??? That's IT? Well, at least we hit the bit time, eh?

To Nathan: I'm glad I was able to (re-?)assure you. However, though I drank sufficient quantities of beer, I did NOT flirt with the women. I was QUITE serious!

To Jinx: Now, though my background is very heavy in mathematics and, to a degree, physics... my actual degree is in psychology. So, I "might" be wrong, but if you're shortening a barrel and NOT losing velocity, I'd just HAVE to think that you've got a rough barrel with lots of friction. Again, if I'm wrong, someone explain this one to me. And the whole idea of riflings, in the first place (which, by the way, were originally straight, not twisted, as I recall), was to give the accuracy-impairing fouling residue a place to go. As for different types of riflings, I think it's somewhat common knowledge that versions such as the Rock 5R deform the bullet less than other types, and also contribute (somewhat) to barrel longevity. When someone starts talking about short barrels and maintaining velocity, I get suspicious. Again, I'm open for a discussion on this topic. As for accuracy, once the bullet is stabilized by the rifling, length is inconsequential except for velocity (i.e., "complete" -- hopefully -- powder burning). Though dependent on the powder type, shorter barrels usually result in rather interesting muzzle flashes (read, "flame throwers") which produce a visual signature that is NOT tactically "cool" in a sniping environment. I personally feel barrel length (selection) should be based to some degree on the type of powder (and the cartridge) that will be used, to enhance the likelihood of a complete burn. The bottomline is that a shooter should know the characteristics of his ammunition.

To Fred: I had a dream that you broke into my gun safe and removed all the scopes from my rifles. Accordingly, I woke up in a cold sweat and dashed down to the arms room to investigate... thankfully, it had only been a nightmare, and all the scopes were intact. <>

To Torsten: As I scrolled down the Duty Roster farther, I found that you supported my commentary on the length/rifling type discussion. Thanks.

To Phil: NO NO NO! I was not ("NOT") in an erotic film, featuring Mona, the wonderbabe, while in Wiesbaden. (Note to any of my senior raters: When completing my next OER, please disregard any of the inane ramblings you find on this page.)

To Nathan: That MMPI thing is the Minnesota Multi-Phasic Inventory. It's full of double and triple "circuits" that will usually catch whether you're sane, insane, or attempting to lie. It's generally the preferred choice of methods (in conjunction with a face-to-face interview with a psychiatrist or psychologist) to evaluate one's fitness for a certain position or situation. Aside from this, good luck with the job.

In general: I just cleaned up a bunch of double posts... and who comes along and double posts again? KODIAK!!! Grrrrrr.

SGT Gimmellie: I was thinking the SAME thing (about Nathan not getting into the great Nauga discussion)!

To Gooch: You cracked me up with your liberty story!

To James: Given the choice between man's best friend, or a lovely lady, or an airstrike... well, patch me through to S-3 Air anytime. Bayonets? Why, James... they're the weapon of choice for gangbangers, don't you know??? Relatively useless these days, however, thanks to the Brady Law. (gag, puke, violent wretching)
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 02:30:52 (EDT) 

Field Craft Practice: Take your favorite rifle and an open sighted .22 pistol to a prairie dog town. Open fire on the dogs with your rifle for about an hour or so to get the pesky little rascals good and agitated. Once the dogs are wary, begin your stalk. No shots are allowed until you're within approx. 25 yards and then all shots must be taken with the open sighted .22 pistol.
Good Luck!
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 02:33:29 (EDT) 
Sgt. Gimmellie,

is that you on page 40 in DFA IV ???
Germany - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 04:20:46 (EDT) 

Mike O´Brien,
hey I did that at the 1991 P-Dog Symposyum in Malta Montana.
The thing was sponsored by: PMC/Eldorado,MTM,Leupold, and ruger(Russ, note how I put ruger last !!). We were given 500 Rounds of .22-250 a day, and after Lunch on the Plains I finished of several Doggies with a .45 Peters Stahl Multicaliber (Omega,Wolverine) until I came pretty close to a not so German Tourist friendly Buzzworm. And I found that they can look to be the size of a pipeline with fangs when your bellybutton is sucking up dirt, besides that it gave me such a kick I would have left a 7" furrow on any further low crawl.
Torsten <>
Germany - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 04:55:17 (EDT) 

now, I don't know that specific gunshop, but I do believe I've seen the name.
Next time you're in SA give me a heads-up before the time and we can meet - I'm just 50km from Johannesburg International Airport. It is Drakensburg ( you left out the S ), which means Mountains of the Dragon.

you only say that ( about the girls ), 'cause it's true :-)

regarding the wind. Downrange, closer to the target, with your bullet being slower, the wind will have a greater affect on the bullet AT THAT POINT. However, the TOTAL affect will be larger with the wind closer to the muzzle.
Look at it like this: Say you're shooting 1000 yards. Close to the muzzle you have a wind which causes a drift of .5 MOA. Downrange that is still .5 MOA, which translates to 5 inches.
Same scenario, but your wind is 500 yards downrange. First assume the affect is still .5 MOA, BUT, and here's the but, that .5 MOA is only effective for the LATTER half of the range. This is thus in effect a .25 MOA drift from your position, which translates to 2.5 inch.
But, we know that the same wind out a 500 yards will have a greater actual affect on the bullet due to the fact that the velocity is lower, as will be the spin rate. Whether this will be greater in total affect than the one close by, I am not sure, from a mathematical point, but from experience I'd say the one downrange have a slightly larger affect - depending of course HOW far downrange.
Any other comments? Or am I off the mark there?

Marius <>
RSA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 07:22:47 (EDT) 

Marius: The effect of the wind near the muzzle would have a longer time to act upon the path of the bullet than would the effect of a wind further downrange.
Paul J. Headlee (sometimes known as Phil or Big Ed) <>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 09:28:29 (EDT) 
Rick: You mentioned barrel stress related to shot dispersion? Thus far, I'd have to say the results look promising. Prior to treatment, my shot groups would generally be centered, but inconsistently. After treatment, I have found I can shoot up to 40 rounds (the most I generally shoot from the .308 in one practice session) with little to no variation in group cluster. They all punch ncie round holess, generally in the exact same region on each target.

O'Brien: I too have noticed a definite lowering of barrel temperature with moly coated bullets. One thing to note, if any of you are shooting mily, CHRONOGRAPH that load! If you are using your old podwer charge you will see a definite lowering of velocity. Using 41.5 grains of IMR 4064 I went from 2590 avg to 2450 avg. Bumping up the charge to 42.3 brought the load back to 2600 and maintained the same accuracy level of my prior uncoated load. Generally this 2% increase is required.

Fred: We shall for ever, from this day, refer to you as Iron Fred. Or Globe boy. Which ever you prefer! By the way folks, in case you aren't away, Fred Fisher is the guy who came to the Hathcock Charity competition with a Shiloh Sharps rifle. Globe front sight and ladder type rear sight!

Paul: I totally agree with your assesment of the wind. This is not what is generally tought, but never the less does appear to be the reality of it. The winds closer to you have more time to act upon the bullet. The wind 50 feet from the target is nearly irrelevent.
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 10:20:11 (EDT) 

I have to apologize to you all for the last post. I am sneaking a peek at the roster here at work and really rushed typing it. It is chock full of type-O's, which will drive both our beloved Mr. Bain and Squire Taylor to distraction. Of course, I find myself felling just a little bit of joy at that prospect...hee heee...

I can shoot, but I sure can't type!

Scott <xring - I can shoot, but can't type!>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 10:27:39 (EDT) 

Scott: Rick Jamison made an argument in a Guns & Ammo issue within the last 2 years sometime about higher velocity bullets being able to render tighter groups due to reduced exposure to the effects of wind. I can't prove or disprove it but it was interesting reading. On a similar note, ballistic coefficient changes with velocity. This, to me, is an intriguing phenomenon. It makes me think about how fast I want the bullet to be traveling over a certain range of distances in order to exploit the highest b.c. possible for a given bullet.

Dan: I've got some dimensional corrections to the press mount drawing to forward.

Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 12:52:57 (EDT) 

Scott: We worked up that load specifically for molly coated bullets and have been focusing on group size and consistancy. We started at 42 grains of 748 and worked up in 1/2 grain increaments to 48 grains. 45 grains provided the tightest consistant groups. We were trying to achive the accuracy and consistancy of Black Hills match ammo which shoots extremely well in our weapons. Law enforcement types can get Black Hills match ammo for about $.54/round, but us silly-vilians have to pay considerably more. Therefore, we reload to save money. Yeah right. According to my neighbor's calculations, we should be millionaires by next month.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 13:06:18 (EDT)

Now this is just typical. Take me 40 minutes to FTP the whole 128K Roster to my PC, at about 1K per seond. I upload the new 60K Roster in minutes, at 17K per second. Then I want to look at it through Netscape, to see that all is well, but give up. The reason? Downloading at 39 BYTES per second.

Go figure.

So, if all is NOT well, I apologise, but I can't verify, but it SHOULD be fine.

Marius <>
RSA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 15:12:09 (EDT) 

To Russ Taylor:
Russ,I have plenty of maps but unfortunately they don't show the shooting ranges.The Chicago suburb that I moved to is called "Cicero".
Also let me say that I'm sorry for the double post.
Also let me say that I'm sorry for the double post.
I only pressed the button once,I was suprised myself to see my message twice.I might have a problem with my mouse button. Sorry to have badgered you about the range info.
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 16:06:57 (EDT) 
To Rick: No offense taken? (You should see where CLP gets when my "better half" is talking)!

To Stagger: OK, I'll bite, "HOW BIG IS IT??????

To SGT Gimmelle: What's the diff between the current SOCOM .45 and the one you saw?

To anyone I missed, (getting old here), that answered, thanks!!!!! The info did help. I want to shoot one and try it for size, (it's big ya know), and go from there. Thanks again!!!!!
Big Ed <>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 16:11:33 (EDT) 

I told you guys, and gal, I'm getting old and I almost forgot...Thanks to all that helped with the scope problems. The denatured alcohol did the trick. I had to use a LOT but it did work. Thanks again, (if I forgot anything please don't hesitate to let me know, wait, my wife will do that!!!!!!
Big Ed <>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 16:14:35 (EDT) 
To: Russell Taylor I read your note with much interest as I had recieved one of these kits several years ago as a gift from my wife. Until I read your note and visited Dick's web site I had never used it. When I read the note an visited the site I tried the kit, BLESS YOU!!!!!!! This is without a doubt, the BEST way to clean an M21 or Garand, (or any weapon), that I have ever seen! If you haven't tried one WHAT ARE YOU WATING FOR??????? I ordered two more from the site, thanks again!!!!!!!
Big Ed <>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 16:44:24 (EDT) 
To Kodiak: I forgive you about the double post.
To Kodiak: I forgive you about the double post.

Drop me an E-mail and I'll send you my phone number. No, you're not "badgering" me, and please don't feel like you are. And if you just want to come on over to my house (all the way across the state), I'll just take you to the ranges. For that matter, it'd give me a chance to "reach out" a bit. I'm not a member of the Milan club, but I know a few folks who are and can get us in. And if you're over "x" miles (50?), you get a discount off your membership. As for New Brunswick, my Dad's been there several times (I think I've shot trap there, when I was much younger), and he could get us there. Milan is "right next door" as things go around my area, and New Brunswick is less than an hour's drive from my house.

To Torsten: "Buzzworm?" Do you mean a rattlesnake?

To Big Ed:  On the cleaning kit... heck, they've got them in the PXes now, so I'm going to have to get one (or two). Like you, I was impressed with what I read, which is why I posted it. I'm glad I was able to help. You made my day!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 18:22:26 (EDT) 

To: Mike O'Brian, Who do you have to contact at Black Hills for the match ammo discount for LE? A friend of mine is a State Trooper/SWAT type ad I'm sure he would like to know about this. Thanks!
Big Ed <>
USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 19:04:56 (EDT) 
The alternate theory on this wind thing is that a wind at the muzzle will cause more drift than a wind mid range because of the fact that 1 moa of drift for the entire duration of flight is greater than 1moa for half of the flight. Now we all know that the bullet slows down and all of that as it goes on it's merry way and that it's effective BC drops as it's velocity slows and all that. But there are some guys that swear by the Top's wind edict. Does anyone have his book on wind reading? I would be interested in hearing it right out of the book.

Do any of you SF guys speak any Canadian? I've got to get ready for the matches. Talked to Warrant Tregar at the Gagetown Master Sniper Cell yesterday and he told me that as long as I put "eh" on the end of every sentence and bring up the inflection on the end of a sentence I would be okay. Is that right, eh?

Is it proper to call a nasty looking transvestite a drag bag?
Master Jarrett. I know another difference between SF and Force Recon. SF guys know how to use a compass. But, you can't tell me that you SF guys don't snuggle with those Air Force specops guys. Those C130 flights can get awfully long.

Just stirring things up.

Mortus via longus. (Marine latin)

Gooch <>
Sherwood , AR USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 19:20:38 (EDT) 

To Nathan:
Congratulations! You seem to be a fan of the 1911 as well you should be. I was faced wuth about the same problem when I had to purchace a duty weapon an after much study I bit the bullet (so to speek) and got myself a H&K USP-40 (The Sheriff at the time wouldn't allow me to have a 45 ACP he said "I'm woried about over penatration, I'd rather you had a 357 magnum." Go figure? I know a lot of folks with USP's and have not known of a single malfunction. NOT ONE! I chose the USP because the controls are where I expect to find them on a 1911 and under stress this is where I'll be looking for them. I cary a Novaks (of West Virginia) modified Para Ordnance P-13 off duty and hope, with a change of Sheriff in two years it or one of my other PO's will be my duty weapon.

To Gooch:
Wind at the muzzle needs to have only a small effect on the bullet to have a large effect at the target.

To Mr Bain:
Good quote, bad spelling. I first saw it in the office of a grizzled old female doctor who told me it was the thing that got her through medical school in the 30's. To the rest of you it is "Never let the bastards wear you down!" Keeps me going on my bad days too.

We had our first use of Tactical Weapons right here in Mineral County the other day. I wasn't there (off sick) but all turned out well. The dead beat had been in a shootout with his ex-girl friend's new flame, the new flame lost, took cover behind a trailer wall (bad choice) and even though he returned effective fire wounding the dead beat, he may not make it out of intensive care. The dead beat theen took his wounded self off into the woods. The next day he was located and after a two hour chase/standoff he put the muzzle of his 22 mag rifle to his mouth and the designated sniper shot the rifle out of his hands from about 100 yds or so. Not sure I approve but am awaiting further details and a chance to talk with the sniper.

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
Still Alive in, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 20:25:40 (EDT) 

Torsten ya thats me lucky pic hehe?

Sgt. Gimmellie
va USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 20:34:38 (EDT) 

I know I can't spell but I didn't think I made that many typo's. Must be the web site!

Get the ASP, you will have it with you when you need it.

When you come to the states, don't miss West Virginia! Besides we have the Storm Mountain Training Center here and it is worth a look.

Iron Fred:
With friends like you...........

Speeking of women, I've noticed that none of you have mentioned West Virginia. Is this some kind of conspericy?

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
Somewhere in, Wet Wet WET West Virginia USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 21:08:27 (EDT) 

Semper Fi De Oppresso Gooch;
I am linguistically confused by all the latin being a first a former marine then an SF'R later on. Anyway, Msgt Owens book merely says " The prevailing theory is- If the wind- blowing across the range-is stronger closer to the shooter tha it is to the targets. it will have a greater affect on the bullet flight than awind which is stronger downrange. A strong wind near the line will start the bullet off it's track to the target sooner and will create a larger margin of error."
That's all it says in the entire book on that subject. He goea on to say, just correctly evaluate the wind speed, the wind direction and the click value and the rest will take care of it's self. I hear you may be coming out to visit us in WY. See you then. By the way, are you going to post any details on the Canadian Match? POC etc.

To Marius;
I was in "Joberg for a day last year and will be back in Aug or Sept. I hunt down in the Eastern Cape where I practice stalking skills on Vaal Rheebok and Blesbuck. I did get lost in Bloemfontaine for a while though. Note the above post on the wind closer to the shooter issue.

Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 21:45:28 (EDT) 

So much to comment on and so little space to do it in! Wind at the muzzel is a VERY short duration wind (millisec.) as opposed to wind down range. Olympic Training Center at Colorado Springs ran a controlled test and found that muzzel wind, contrary to common sense, has very little to do with bullet off set. Wind at the target had an equal amount of bullet off-set, very little. The greatest bullet off set came from max ord range area, being just prior to and just after max ord. Something to do with weightless state of bullet and equal up force to down force. This and the fact that the round has slowed down and the BC has dropped off, and that some bullets are now over stabilized due to twist verses velocity causes a greater movement in the bullet. We have our students read winds at mid range and have a higher success at target strikes than if the students reads the wind anyplace else. Students that read the wind at their position have the worse hit rate. As an example, I just had a student change his wind call today, at 600 meters, due to a gust he felt. The wind at mid range was still left to right 1/4 value. He missed the target, up wind, due to his wind call at his position. I am "fortunate(?)" enough to watch around 400 rounds go down range every day on the range for a each 6 week course, this works out to about 6000 rounds per course, or 30000 rounds per year, just in student shooting. This does not include instructor shooting. I have also seen a right to left wind in the scope and felt a left to right wind. Don't call the wind you feel or you will miss the target. Also look down range for multiple winds. This really messes with the students and is why we show them winds down range with smoke grenades.

This is getting entirely too long so I'll leave off here and guys email me with your arguements! I'd love to hear more on this, Gooch you are an evil man!!! Ref the Kit and Caboddle, I've used it ever since I got a free one in the 80s. Best field cleaning kit for any rifle, just purchase a muzzel guide to make the kit complete.

Latin what the heck is latin? I thought that was a dead language! Just remember guys, there are only two type of people in this world, snipers and targets.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 21:59:12 (EDT) 

Thanks to Bonnie, Russ, Scott, and Dave on the conrats, and everone else I missed.n the congrats. Since mom is springing for the duty weapon, I have been mulliing over a HK USP, since they seem to run roughly the same as a Glock and I am still steamed that I can't carry a 1911. I read today that the 155 gr. Fed JHP has over 90% one-shot stops. I think it was on one of the Sig sites linked off of Sniper Country. Something to think about. As for the .45, well, 200 gr. SJHP's from CCI are legendary. Over penetration??? Yeah, I agree, go fig.

Anyone ever mess with a Beretta 96 in 40 S&W?

Sgt. Gimellie: Cute pic in SOF magazine. I hear you are in another mag, so now you are an international celebrity! Now all you need to do is tag team with Russ and me and "Mona" and .......never mind.

ASP batons are real good? I am just familiar with PR-24's, but I am young and dumb and just stupid enough to buy into any advice that anyone has to offer me. If someone on this site recommends some equipment, then I am game.

As an Okie from Muskogee that has journeyed to West Va and other locales across the fruited plain, I can say that the people of West Va are, uh, "interesting". Hee hee, snort. Arkansas is not far away form here, and Adair County, Okla is legendary. The women here are, well, the type you see on Jerry Springer. So, if that floats your boat then more power to you. I like exotic women. Who is Mona? :-) Wonder what she is doing tonight :-)

I am being fitted for my uniform tomorrow. Also, tomorrow (July 2nd) is my 22nd birthday. I gifts have been registered at US Cavalry and Les Baer. I prefer sparkling champagne and Samuel Adams beer. Send to following address........

Finally, someone was walking by when I read about my non- involvment in the great Nauga debate. They asked what I nauga was and I replied, " It is a ferocious animal that roams the woods, eating snipes at night. Care must be taken when you shoot them or you will just piss them off and they will eat you." No reply was given. My silence? Well, I am silent for the same reason grandpa was quiet about his war experiences. Nauga hunting has a strange affect on the psyche. You see, I have found that there is no hunting like the hunting of Naugas. And once I have hunted Naugas, and liked them, I never have cared for hunting anything else.

Good shooting and Illigetitemum non carbundum,

Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 22:21:25 (EDT) 

Salutations and all of that eh!

The matches in Canada are held 23-31 July at Connaught Ranges in Ottawa, Ontario eh. The ranges are actually nearer Nepean. Contact the DCRA, 45 Shirley Blvd., Nepean, Ontario, K2K 2W6. (613)829-8281, Fax - (613)990-0434, E-mail "" and web site "". Look under entry forms on the web site under National Service Rifle Championships eh.

Sniper matches consist of the following:

Match 61: Two sighters, 7 on score. 300m. Sniper head tgt. shoot/no shoot. 10-12 exposures of 3-5 seconds each.

Match 62: No sighters. 10 for score. 400m. Moving targets. 10 meter sector/6 second exposure.

Match 63: 1 sighter. 10 on score. 500m. Snap shooting. 10 exposures, 3-5 seconds/exposure.

Match 64: No sighters. 10 rounds/shooter. 200-600m. Fire and movement. 1- 7 second exposure per shooter, 2 shots per exposure, 45 second change over to other shooter and repeat. Run back to next yardline eh.

Match 65: 1 sighter. 10 rounds on score/man. 800m. 20 minutes/team eh.

Targets are international combat targets (cartoon w/scoring rings). Both shooters must use the same rifle. Normal 2 man team configuration eh.

Come on up and shoot eh!

Do you guys think I'm evil? Rick thinks I'm evil. I'm offended. Hurt my feelings! passed. Rick is mean. Do you guys know that he is mean to his students? I hear he puts mean statements on their DA1059's. Rick is a mean man.

Guinness is good food.

Gooch out.
Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 00:12:57 (EDT) 

I highly recommend the ASP baton over the PR24 mainly because of its length when carried. In a foot chase the PR24, mounted in its holder at your hip, has a tendency to be hit by your heel as you run launching it straight up and out of the holder. I have trained in depth with the ASP and have not encountered a problem as yet. Congrats on your new job and be safe.
Brent <>
Shreveport, La USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 00:18:18 (EDT) 
By the way the DCRA sniper matches only cover a 2-3 day period. The rest of the matches include, service rifle, pistol and LMG competitions. I haven't been privvy to the actual match program yet so contact the DCRA for a breakdown of events.

Also they call the sniper matches "precision rifle". PC you know eh.

Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 00:18:21 (EDT) 

Sorry guys; this is going to be long winded. This stuff about the effect of wind at different ranges triggered my obsessive-compulsive streak for detailed number crunching. Get out your favorite ballistics program to check it out.

The effect of wind would SEEM to have a greater effect if it occurred at distances closer to the muzzle than at farther ranges. In a way this is true, but ONLY if bullet velocity is constant during the entire time of flight. Basically, due to decreasing velocity of the projectile, and a constantly increasing time of flight (decreasing velocity of the projectile as distance from the muzzle increases) to the objective as distance increases, wind has more effect further DOWN RANGE. Right, What does THAT mean? It is best explained if I list the results of some calcs. The calcs are for a 338 Win.Mag 210gr. Nosler Partition Federal Premium Safari with a BC of 0.400, muzzle vel. of 2835 fps and a Federal .308 cal 168 gr. Match with a BC of 0.475, MV of 2600 fps.

bullet: .338, wind @ 3 o’clock
range(yds) deflection at 6 mph (in.) deflection at 28 mph (in.) Time of Flight (secs.)
0 0 0 0
500 13.1 61.1 .653
1000 65.7 306.7 1.680
1500 168.3 785.3 3.180
2000 307.0 1432.7 5.023

bullet: .308, wind @ 3 o’clock
range(yds) deflection at 6 mph (in.) deflection at 28 mph (in.) Time of Flight (secs.)
0 0 0 0
500 13.1 61.1 .653
1000 65.7 306.7 1.680
1500 168.3 785.3 3.180
2000 307.0 1432.7 5.023

Looking at the numbers... (and the ratios hold for both loads) at 6 mph wind for the entire distance of 2000 yds. you would have to have a wind of 28 mph for 1000 yds, and 0 thereafter to have the same deflection. In other words.... you would need a wind speed 5 times greater for first half distance to a target to get the same deflection as the slower wind speed the entire distance to the target. Right, the distances are not realistic for most shooting purposes, but, the ratios hold for all distances. i.e. To have an equal effect, the wind speed would have to be 5 times greater for the first half distance to have a significant effect. Note that both projectiles show the same proportionate effects.

From a different approach..... the numbers show a 5x greater deflection for 2x increase in distance (3x increase in time of flight). Extrapolate to your hearts content!!

Butch <>
N'awlins, LA USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 01:46:53 (EDT) 

bullet: .308, wind @ 3 o’clock
range(yds) deflection at 6 mph (in.) deflection at 28 mph (in.) Time of Flight (secs.)
Sorry, the .308 data should read:

0 0 0 0
500 12.1 56.6 .691
1000 58.7 273.8 1.709
1500 148.8 694.4 3.139
2000 271.4 1266.9 4.878

Butch <>
N'awlins, LA USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 02:14:36 (EDT) 

To Big Ed:
I don't remember who I talked to at Black Hills Ammo, it was a year ago. I was an R.O. at last year's Proskopathlon Sniper match and that's where I received a Black Hills L.E. price list and catalog. I had the opportunity to shoot the stuff and found it to be very accurate and consistent in my rifle. There's no Black Hills dealer in the Casper, WY area so I called Black Hills to order some ammo. They said that I needed to submit an order on L.E. department letterhead to get the discount which is substantial. They also said they would provide the discount to L.E. types for personal use if the order was on L.E. department letterhead. Us non L.E. types have to pay full price so I started reloading. Hope this helps.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 04:14:08 (EDT) 
Buzzworm = Rattlesnake over 5 feet in length. under that they are called "lunch".
Depity Dave,
hey this could turn out to be a Month long trip across the East Coast. Most likely after Shot Show 99 in Atlanta.
Sgt. Gimmellie,
GOTCHA ! I´ll frame you and put you up in our classroom.
Nice input thanks. They dont give us as many smoke grenades so I use old tin cans with a mix of sand, gasoline and old Motor oil on top of a metall pan to catch and spilling (EC).
They smoke real nice and for a much longer time. If I could only stop the guy´s shooting them. We are no longer allowed to beat our soldiers.

Si vis pacem para bellum !

Torsten <>
Viele schöne, Mädchen in Deutschland - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 04:17:45 (EDT) 

To Torsten: Stalking the dreaded prairie dog with a .45? Talk about overkill! .22s require more precise shot placement. As for the buzzworms, you're supposed to sweet talk'em so they don't give away your position. A 7 inch furrow huh? I think you've been in the field too long.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 04:29:55 (EDT) 
To Torsten: As far as Buzzworms and lunch go, it's the diameter not the length that determines if it's worth eating. They taste good, but the meat is stringy and skiny buzzworms are just too much work to eat. On the other hand, fat ones make a good meal.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 04:39:21 (EDT) 
In the matter of Mona: Nice girl, 22 years old, 5'9" (I think -- actually, I don't know -- any of you geniuses know what 1 meter, 64 centimeters is in the English measurement system???), blonde, Romanian, "to die for" eyes. <> Alas, with me pushing 41, I'm old enough to be her father... or maybe just a much older brother. Women in West Virginia? Really???

On wind: This is some GOOD stuff being shared here! Keep it up. And hey, Torsten? What's your formula for those home-made smokers (sand/gas/oil mixture)?

On ballistics software: I shared an E-mail I received a couple of days ago with the rest of the Sniper Country Council, from a guy who is writing a ballistics package. He wanted to know what should be included, what shooters would like to have, and so on. If you guys want to send me your comments and suggestions, I'll compile them and forward them to the guy. (I got him to agree to send us an evaluation copy when he gets it done.)

Well, I might as well tell you guys. On 23 Jun 98, the local newspaper (two newspapers, actually, owned by the same corporation) ran a "large" (as in "l a r g e") article on... "me." Big color picture, taking up the upper half of the page, the front page of the "life" section. I live in an area called the Quad Cities (Rock Island, Moline, East Moline in Illinois, and Davenport, Iowa), and the "BIG," bold-print, three-inch high headline at the top of the page read "Q C SNIPER" (and I tell you as honest as I can truthfully be, I was expecting just a 3x3-inch picture, with a "little" caption that read something like "local resident runs sniper webpage"... so some bullhockey like that... but oh NOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo... it was a two-page article, with the big picture. And, on the front page of one of the two newspapers, they even ran a 3x3-inch inset in the upper right corner. Thankfully... it was a "good" article. Had a better "flavor" than the WSJ piece, which was actually the reason the paper did the story on me. A few inaccuracies ("I" started the site in 1995... and a couple of minor administrative errors), but overall a very good piece. So far, I've been given about 25 copies by friends and work associates. Also... people seem to be very "nice" to me, these days. Hmmmm, I wonder why. So, with this recent piece on me and this site, the WSJ article, the Soldier of Fortune article, and various other mentions here and there... we're definitely getting ourselves established in the law enforcement and military sniping communities. Those of us who run this site owe all of you who visit it, a debt of gratitude -- for your intelligence, integrity, honesty, compassion, maturity, and experience -- because without you folks, we wouldn't be what we are... the premier sniper-related website on the Internet.

I guess the spotting scope discussion died off... but did "we" decide that the Kowa was pretty much the best bet for the money (for us po' folks)? If so, which model?

And by the way... would do you folks think about Sniper Country adding a "wish list" page? My thinking is that it would be, eventually, a place where people in the gun and accessories industries would visit from time to time to see what we "buyers" are interested in having. Just a short comment, yay or nay, please, either in an E-mail or here.

Finally, did you guys know that we have an UPCOMING FIELD EVENTS page for you to post information about upcoming events? It's also for inquiries about the location of shooting ranges in your area. Make use of it, because it's there for you.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 07:05:45 (EDT) 

Depity Dave: Women in WV. Yup. I have to admit, in my short travels through that tax sucking state, I have seen some mighty fine examples...of course, you have to discount the rampant inbreeding and the occasional HAND GROWNING OUT OF THE FOREHEAD!

Rick: you have the best solution. Judge wind at mid-range, in effect, splitting the difference. Obviously a 20 mph mid range wind is going to have more effect than a five mph wind at the muzzle! Common sense seems to be the rule here. In the end is would seem that in reading wind, no pat answer can be relied on as the wind varies constantly at all ranges, switching direction and speed with evil regularity! Hell, I am still amazed we hit anything when the wind is screaming, but the charts do work and the target goes GONG!

Russ: On the Kowa. The TS-611 is a very good scope if you only have about $400 to spend ($300 for scope, $125 for eyepiece). It is also the most reasonably sized of the Kowa series. The TSN-1 is awesome, but large. The newest addition is water resistant, but large AND very expensive. For the average Jo, the TS-611 makes the most sense. With the addition of a $30 screw on water resistent cap, the eye piece can be made relatively water proof, eliminating one of the largest complaint on just about every quality scope available to the civi world. Also the TS-611 with 25x LER eyepiece is actually clearer than the 20x Unertl scope sitting here on my desk.

By the way, if you are looking for a spotting scope, do not forget to carefully consider whether you want a straight eyepiece design or a 45 degree eyepiece. The 45 is excellent for High Power matches and for most general use, but is a real disadvantage for the type of spotting you do in tactical shooting. The 45, if set vertically, puts your head way high and makes you strain your neck, not to mention exposing you, and if placed horizontal to the ground, it gives you an unatural feel when aiming the device. A straight through design seems much more effective for the sniping role. I believe Kowa does offer straight designs as does Unertl.

Last note, if you need a spotting scope and are tempted to purchase any of the x-brand units from the usual optic manufacturers, just save your money. Bushnells, Tascos, Refields and even some Leupolds and just not worth the money. At least in their lower grade units. Sadly, in this tihng, you really do get what you pay for. A straight taper Bushnell for $99 is about as usefull as a pipe filled with bat guano.
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 08:16:41 (EDT) 

Schmoker´s eh !

I use old Jam cans about 10" dia. and 12" high and fill them with dry sand. Use about 2/3 old Motor oil and 1/3 gasoline and saturate the sand. If you really want dark, like in a bears butt dark! you can sprinkle some rubber granules from a old car tire on top of the burning pot. We have a local tire recycling place here that gives the stuff away.
I always put an old metal tray (like under the Hummer) under the pot to keep any leaks contained and stop the stuff from flaming up the range.
Stirr the stuff every second trip to the targets to keep it going and it should last a couple of hours.
All you need is two pots, one at the target and one half way. Unless you like wearing a NBC Mask during sessions ? kinky stuff !!

I have just sold a Swarowski Spotting scope and found my Kowa TSN 31 Prominar by far superior.
I get a kick out of having other shooters and hunters look trough it and compare with their Swar´s or Zeiss´ and others. Since mine is all wrapped up in Burlap its hard to tell what it is thats beating their´s.

Horrido !


Torsten <>
You cant see me, but I can see you Germany - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 09:17:09 (EDT) 


Stay out of trouble and dont eat to many Doughnut´s

germany - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 09:38:34 (EDT) 

Not trying to change any of the current interesting subjects but this might be a good "heads up" notice.....As of 1Dec '98 ALL firearms purchases must have a purchaser I.D. check !! ALL OF it target or shotgun or even the (PC)"target interdiction" rifle !!!!!!!! This is your TAX Dollars at work !!! So....maybe you want to get Christmas a little early ??!! Like say, Halloween !!!
I Love my's the politicians I'm am scared of !!
Out here....Charlie Mike
"Innocent Observer" <>
Somewhere in the Deep, South USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 10:09:56 (EDT) 
USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 10:26:33 (EDT) 
To Nathan: Happy Birthday! Good luck in you new job, be careful and CHECK SIX!!!!

To Mike O'Brian: Thanks for the info, I'll tell him to call and get the address to send it to, should be worth the time.....I hear it's very good ammo.

To All: Happy 4th!!!!!!! Stay safe, shoot well,

Out here....
Big Ed <>
USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 15:20:16 (EDT) 

Gentlemen: I recently played around with a SOCOM .45. Although, it functioned flawlessly with just about anything you wanted to feed it, however I still felt that the size of the gun was still a bit large. It might be the handgun of choice for several elite units within the US service, but I'll but three Sig Sauer 220s. As with any top shelf equipment you are paying for the name and the prestige of the item. Just give me the Sigs and I'll go home a happy camper.

Oh, by the way. Everyone is talking about how great different women are. Well I've got one for you. I recently bought my wife a little golden retriever puppy. She looked at the puppy patted its little head and said "Oh Al, now you've made my life almost complete. The only thing I need now is a sniper rifle." What a woman! I love her! I guess I'll have to build "her" one.

Al o. <>
mantua, ohio USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 15:56:44 (EDT) 


T - 2
DENWOOD, ALBERTA USACANADA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 16:05:05 (EDT) 

Dear Russ E Taylor. Now Russ about Mona, the 22 year old Romanian bombshell. Just take some Viagra and you'll be gtg. Have fun and happy shooting

Al . O. <>
mantua, USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 16:09:22 (EDT) 

Mr. Taylor,

Just a quick FYI. 164 centimeters equals 5 foot 4 1/2 inches.

George L. Derry <>
Oakland, CA USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 17:28:31 (EDT) 


NOTELLIN, WHERE USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 18:22:37 (EDT) 

Havent gotten a chance to stop by for a while sounds like you guys have been having some fun w/o me.
Has anyone read the article on the objective individual weapon are they planning on issueing that combined 5.56-20mm weapon to everyone? Sounds like a logistics nightmare not to mention the poor soldier who has to carry the ammmunition why the thing dosent even look like it has a bayonet lug for the Marines and what will happen when the battery runs out on your LASER rangefinder.
Nathan congats, Im shure youll pass your psyco eval well maybe
So what exactly does make a good eatin snake?
With all this woman talk sounds like we could start some kinda Sniper Country Loveline or somthing.
c/2nd LT. Keith Kacmar AFJROTC <>
Saugus, CA USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 18:42:34 (EDT) 
Send location on woman with hand on forehead; intresting possibilities there.

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
Still living in, West Virginia USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 18:55:22 (EDT) 

Upgrading my old spotting scope. Any tips or experience with premium scopes like Leupold, Burris, Swarovski, Leica, Nikon, Redfield would be appreciated. Thanks.
Jesse <>
USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 21:34:42 (EDT) 
I am new to the craft of sniping and am looking for suggestions on where to start. I have a Remington 700 BDL heavy barrel in .308 topped with a Redfield Golden Five Star 6x18 Variable scope with target knobs. I am currently shooting Winchester Match .308 in 168grain hpbt. I have been told that this is a rookie setup. Is this a good setup or should I search elsewhere. Also I have been told that Federal's Match ammo is the best 'out of the box' ammo you can buy. Is this true? or is the bullet you can hit consistently with what you should stick with. Any help would be greatly appreciated. DOC
Terry 'DOC' Evans <>
Ft. Lee , Va USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 22:25:53 (EDT) 
I agree with Scot about the straight verses angled eyepiece for spotting scopes, the straight ones are easier to aim. In WW2 the Brits were were quite fond of their 20 power draw tube spotting scopes and I wish someone still made a good one. Schmidt & Bender used to make one called a Mayflower back in the early 80's but I have never seen one for sale. I did find a Russian draw tube at a gun show for 39 bucks and it really isnt half bad once you take it apart and clean all the crap out of the inside.
I am willing to share a few wind doping secrets with you guys but I expect a few secrets shared in return. These secrets came by hard to me because I am not terrible bright and I dont feel like just giving them away.
Tip number 1. Buy a wind meter. I bought one years ago, called a Dwyer. It is just a cheap plastic thing with a little ball inside a tube which rises when held to the wind. I wouldnt use it for years because I didnt trust it and I didnt know if the calibration was right and I couldnt figure out how to test it for accuracy. Then one year an idea floored me. If I could not find a constant wind source of a known value I could still test it when there was no wind by moving myself at a known speed. (same difference). For example, my pace is 36 inches and if I take 2 steps per second I am walking 4 miles per hour. So I held the thing at eye level and started walking and sure enough the meter read 4 miles per hour. Then I got in my car an started driving down a country road at 20 miles per hour and stuck the thing out a window, and sure enough the thing read 20 miles per hour. Once I had something I could trust I was ready to let it teach me to judge wind speed. Does any one else know that the wind makes a distinctive sound as it reaches a certain speed. It sounds exactly the same as when you crack open your car window while driving down the road, only softer. For me I can pick up this sound when the wind speed reaches 7 m.p.h. The exact speed may vary with different people depending on the size of their ear holes.
Tip Number 2. Be aware of every thing around you. In a high power rifle match, It is always nice to get squadded next to a cocky young buck with good eyes and good form and just got done tearing up the range during the 300 yard rapid fire exercise. He does not look old enough to shave so he cant possibly have enough experience to judge subtle variations in wind speed shift or direction shift at 600 yards and beyond , so you use his shot locations for your wind telltale flag!

To Rick: Is Tip number 2 considered cheating?

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 23:15:13 (EDT) 


If your out there, e-mail me. I dont have your address and i have your package ready to send out, it seems that all my saved e-mail was ate up by spooks or critters.

reaper6 out
TX USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 23:21:54 (EDT) 

Torston - We don't get many smoke grenades either. We only use them to drive home the point of shifting winds and give them a reference point for mirage and "other indicators". After the first 25 - 30 min of observering only, we move them onto the range and let them shoot. Once the shooting commences we do not allow any type of wind indicators down range. Only what nature provides and what they will have on a mission.

Russ - On spotting scopes, I agree 100% with Torston and Scott, the Kowa is the only way to go! Expensive though, the TSN 1 is outstanding if your situation permits a large scope the new scope by Kowa is even better, but bigger and even more expensive, the TS-611 is the ONLY way to go if you have to crawl with the sucker! But you can't beat them for clarity and reading wind or trace. I, however, like the 45 degree angle scope. This allows me to spot from a very low position for myself, and when acting as an observer I can place the scope in the crook of the shooter's body to get on gun target line. This also permits me to set the scope on the edge of a window and observe an area with out exposing my body. Yes, the angle takes some getting used to but it is worth the hassel.

Torston, honest, I'm not ignoring your email. I'm triing to set up that deal for you and want info before I fully respond. Jan 1999 we will be in instructor train up with no class running. This would be a good time but I need clearence from the highers!

Lt. Kacmar - The M4/20mm combo would be smaller than that great piece of junk called the 203! Ammo would also be smaller and lighter than the 40mm with almost identical burst radius with the addition af AP and other "special rounds". Weapon attachment would look more like a shotgun than an over sized sewer pipe! And as every kid knows with his walkman, carry backup batteries! Actually we don't use any of that whiz bang, only the attached blazer flashlight for close in work.

Scott - On the wind, as you said, its all magic. I tell the students that after a few days of calling "from the gut" they WILL hit. Seems to work with most, some have just got to figure it out and they never learn because of that need to figure it out.

Nathan - Go with the ASP man. Got my daughter (four years on the force now) one and she loves it. Just opening it stopped four guys from triing anything one night, decided I was bigger than they thought!

Last note on the SOCOM 45, alot of guys here at our compound tested it and didn't like it. Too big and awkward for them.

Gooch - You're still an evil man, don't even consider slope discussions!

Guys, keep shooting and stay safe!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, July 02, 1998 at 23:51:10 (EDT) 

Steve - Tip number two is used by everyone! That is not cheating, it is using the noggin! That's why many say the wind is the shooter's friend! On tip number one, Becareful reading wind at your location, it has a tendance to lie! On the old British "Regimental Scope". I never did get used to them, so don't particuly like them, each to their own though.

Now I'm out of here!
Rick <>
USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 00:01:41 (EDT) 

To Scott, Russ, Rick, Gooch, and anyone else who can help:

I need information about Muzzle Brakes. Do they affect accuracy? Which types are the best and where do I find a good one?

I am thinking about putting one on a heavy barreled Rem 700, .300 WinMag.

Any help or information you can provide would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Brian Middleton <>
Irvine (MCAS El Toro), CA USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 00:57:24 (EDT) 

To Doc: I'm not a sniper, just a long range shooter, but it sounds like you've got a good setup to start with. The big question is can you make it shoot for you. Some factory guns shoot fantastically while others have only hunting grade accuracy. I assume you're an L.E. type so your typical shooting will require great precision at relatively short ranges, (under 150 yards). I think your weapon should be able to put 10 rounds in a quarter sized pattern at 100 yards. If it can't, it's time for some gunsmith work. As for ammo, you'll most likely have to use factory ammo for L.E. work. Federal match ammo is very good but I've had better success with Black Hills molly coated match ammo and they have an L.E. discount, (see my earlier post to "Big Ed").

To LT Kacmar: As to what makes a good eatin' snake? Depends on how hungry you are. I've only dined on Buzzworms, (rattlesnakes). They taste like rabbit which tastes like chicken to some people. The larger the diameter, the better they are to eat. The meat is tasty but stringy and skinny snakes are just too much work to eat unless you're really hungry. They can be roasted over the fire, pan fried in butter and garlic, (my favorite), or cut into chunks and deep fried. For the health conscience, Buzzworms are a low fat diet.
Mike O'Brien <atrus@coffey>
Evansville , WY USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 01:29:26 (EDT) 

To Brian: I had a muzzle brake installed on my heavy barreled .308 and it has not had any perceptible effect on accuracy. Mine is a varment style brake. This style vents the gases to the side and up allowing shots from prone without creating a dust cloud. Obviously, if my muzzle is concealed by brush on the sides, it won't be after I squeeze the trigger. Muzzle brakes make things considerably noisier at the trigger end so hearing protection is a requirement 100% of the time. The brake on my rifle allows me to see bullet impact which can be quite spectacular on prairie dogs. Hope this info is of some assistance.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 01:48:03 (EDT) 
There's a posting in the archives for 20 MAY 96 at 12:49 that's a pretty good candidate for removal.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 03:47:20 (EDT) 
To Paul: Yes, I agree... I looked at that post and it's "sick." I'll get to it soon, unless Marius beats me to it. Thanks for pointing it out.

To George (in the matter of Mona): I can ASSURE you she was MUCH closer to 5'9" than to 5'4.5". And it wasn't 164 centimeters, I told you it was 1 meter, 64 centimeters. Attention to detail. Get down and give me 25 (pushups)!!!

To Scott, Torsten, and Rick: Thanks for the Kowa recommendations.

To Al: That's quite some wife you've got there. My gunsmith is selling his sniper rifle, which I'm posting on the Emporium, if you're interested. It's a shooter.

To Terry ( "Doc"): !%^@#^!#$@!, stop listening to "people." Hell, don't even listen to US! Listen, if you're shooting the thing and hitting the way you want, then tell the others (your nay-saying associates) to buzz off! Gosh dang it, heck, and foul language... James Jarrett and I, and some others, have been trying to say you do NOT have to go into the poor house just to shoot pretty little groups! Hey, if you're an oil tycoon, then go for it... but it sounds like you've got a fair rig now. If anything, maybe trade your scope for a good, fixed 10-power. God, I hate to see people spend money when they don't need to! Just spend more time at the range and to heck with your "pals!" On Federal versus Winchester (match): use what shoots best in YOUR gun! Winchester shot less accurately than Federal in my rifle, but so what? USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU! (At least try a box of the Federal, though, just to help you make your decision.)

To Brian: E-mail me offline for some extensive information on muzzle brakes. Building my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum "1500-yard, target interdiction rifle," I researched the topic of brakes pretty thoroughly. If installed by a "good" gunsmith, they should have very little detriment to accuracy, if any, but there are a number of factors involved.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 06:33:19 (EDT) 

I currently own a Leupold MK4 M3 with a BDC. I am shooting in a .308 and using 168 grain match bullet. Now my question is how accurate will my bullet drop compensator be with a barrel length of 20 inches. Also if this does drop accuracy what length barrel or other factors are reccomended. Lastly what does alot of "Friction" in the barrel cause to happen, as was explained to me earlier happens with Polygonal rifled barrels.
Alibi, how much barrel length will give me sufficient powder burn using fed match 168gr .308, (will 20" be enough?)

Anxiously waiting
Fayetteville, N.C. USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 07:42:40 (EDT) 

NOMAD! Gunny were are you ?
Oberfeldwebel Erning
Germany - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 08:53:21 (EDT) 
My two cents on spotting scopes and other stuff...I really like my Leupold 25x50 w/crosshair. Sure mildots MIGHT be faster (I hate Mildots) but I can accquire targets and call quadrants PDQ !!! An angled eyepiece would be nice but I did some work on a mini-tripod and it does its stuff, low profile and lifetime warranty !! No Prob....Beats the heck out of what I was once issued by Unc Sam....Best Ammo ??!! What about Norma Match? or Lapua?
Some of my associates are claiming great results with the new Hornady stuff !! Federal Gold Match is great stuff..but I will take Norma, when I can find it and that may be why most claim Fed is the best.....availability. SOCOM .45 too darn big...USP not so bad and hey !!! I have a size 15 ring finger hand !!I am not small....would prefer my Sig220 but the USP, is a close 2nd!!! Thats enough for now!! Reaper6 Email me!! Yours isn't online

Notso"innocent observer" <>
Deep South, USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 09:57:48 (EDT) 

To Rick: Regarding Tip #1 No argument there, but one should learn how to crawl before one learns how to walk. Also, sometimes mirage and other indicators are not present and what the the wind is doing at the shooters end is sometimes all you have to go on.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 10:28:16 (EDT) 

We've removed the offending post. Our apologies to any who was offended by it. I can assure you the tenor and the language of the post do not in any way reflect our views!


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 11:25:07 (EDT) 

To whom it may concern:)
first,,1 meter is 100 centimeters!
there now I´ve said it.
and have you guys tryed the 550 series powder from VihtaVuory,,,its said to add up to 50m/s with no increase in pressure.
straight shooting:)
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Egilsst., Iceland - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 11:49:21 (EDT) 
In light of my previus comment on the metric system,
50m/s is aprox:164.04 fps.

even straighter shooting:)
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Egilsst., Iceland - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 11:59:24 (EDT) 

Don't you hate it when someone stirs up caca and just sits back and watches the wrestling match?

On the wind thang. The reason I asked it was #1 Because I was hanging out with some neophyte highpower shooters or students (one of the two) awhile back and one of them brought up the subject of MSgt Owens book and the deal of the wind at the muzzle. Now being an old stuck in my ways (and evil I guess) crusty sniper I kind of just dismissed it.

I was always taught and have taught and used the practice of checking the wind at least at the midway point and maybe a couple of more depending on the distance to the target and the topographical characteristics of the terrain. (You like that Rick? TOPOGRAPHICAL, big word huh?) You use mirage, observation of tree, grass movement etc. to get velocity, direction etc. Anyway....So I blew off these guys and continued to be velcroed to the old way right? I recently have gotten into the groove of re-researching some of this stuff we take for gospel. And I thought I would use the mass of throbbing grey matter out there in cyber land to check out the MSgt Owens thing. If I can get my old USMC Range Officer compadre Tom Skeer, the current USMC rifle team OIC and sniper, to join in the fray we can really have fun with some of this stuff.

Damn. I forgot the other reason I brought up the subject...The mind is a terrible thing.

Have you guys who run this thing ever thought about a news letter or a World Sniping Confederation type thing?

Oh yea!! The National Guard Marksmanship Training Unit here in North Little Rock in the great Clinton home land has started the Association of Marksmen in the National Guard. What they hope for it to turn into is a central association for miltary and tactical marksmen. I guess kind of like the NRA used to be before they began their political adventures. The association ran the interservice pistol matches this year and is eventually going to get a web site, newsletter etc. If any one is interested call NGMTU at (501)212-4510, 4520 or 4530. Our DSN prefix is (962) if anyof you guys have access to DSN. It is open to every one who wants in.
Except Rick. He is a mean man.

TIme to publish this thing.

Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 12:40:17 (EDT) 

Big Ed: you deserve the best...get a Sig
Joe Reiss <>
Kelso, WA USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 13:07:36 (EDT) 
Laur: I have the M852 document you are looking for. E mail your address to me.

Nathan: Just get through the academy...everyone takes lateral hires. Good luck and congrats!!!
Joe Reiss <>
Kelso, WA USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 13:15:16 (EDT) 

And another thing!

Be verrrrrry careful about using another shooters' impacts on target to judge the wind.

Using your own impacts to judge the wind is a marginal technique to begin with. It's referred to as "chasing the bull". You fire a bad shot, correct for wind, fire a good shot, now you're off, move back to the original yada yada. Except in rapid fire, each shot should be wind doped on it's own and in rapid fire you do it on the magazine change. By using bullet impact you are ASSUMING that a) it was a good call and b) The wind hasn't changed since the last shot. Note I said it was "marginal". You can do it sometimes if you know what you are doing and are firing good shots to begin with.

Make a good wind call, fire a good shot. E plurabus unum.

I also find that burying chicken bones behind the 600 yardline works to increase your luck with the wind. Also try to shoot when the grass is over 7 inches tall as it slows the wind down. (Humor guys!)

Rick is just chomping at the bit to begin a conversation on angle shooting guys. Dare we? Who wants to start? Before we do warn me so I can stock up on Tylenol.

CG says I'm done.

Gooch out.

Gooch <>
SHerwood, AR USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 13:16:37 (EDT)

To Jinx: About barrel length, don't forget that I said it depends on the powder you use. Also, for that matter, caliber (read, "air space") affects the powder burn rate. Also, you might want to visit Dan Lilja's home page... he did a piece on a .338/378 Weatherby Magnum, which included chopping the barrel down from a starting length of (if memory serves) 42 inches. He lists velocities and other information for each shortening of the barrel.

To Haraldur: Thanks for the metrics lesson. I hate metrics. Well, whatever, I'm tellin' ya, she was about five FEET nine INCHES tall -- so one of you metric Einsteins convert it into metrics.

I've got some N-550 that I'll be loading in my .308 Winchester (bolt) loads, eventually. I'll let you know how things work out.

To Gooch: Just yesterday, someone sent me an E-mail suggesting we put out a list-server product. I passed it to the Council. However, that would require list-server software, and someone to set it up. To my knowledge, none of us are qualified to do so. I agree, it has merits. As for your idea... it's worth considering too. The biggest disadvantage, I see, is that (and correct me if I'm wrong) we'd lose the ability to allow people OFF the list to come here and benefit from previous postings. My understanding is that only those who are subscribed would get the information. I'm not thrilled about that, because I like the idea of us being here for anyone who wants to find us -- but who may not want to have their mailbox stuffed regularly. We may end up zipping the archives to save space -- and I could add a link to Winzip's download site for those who don't have it (or PKzip). I'm not rejecting your idea out of hand, I think it's a good one, but I'm not sure it's the best idea. Still, we'll take it under advisement. Thank you for the suggestion.
Russell Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 14:01:02 (EDT) 

Scott and Rick, thanks for all the good info on spotting scopes. How many beans for a Kowa TSN-1 and best place to find one? Really appreciate the help. Great board too!
Jesse <>
USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 15:20:52 (EDT) 
Depity Dave:

Did you know that in West Virginia if you get divorced from your wife.....she is still your sister. (really big Grin!)

Welcome Back Russ!

Watch the National News may get to see me on it. I have sent most of the Wildland Fire crews I supervise to the fires in central Florida. I'm on alert to go also.

Bad JuJu down there. They just evacuated a whole County (Flagler) and cancelled the Daytona 500 as well. 125 miles of I-95 is closed also. So if You are coming this way...find an alternate route.

The ballistics conversation just got really good too.

Cory Wilson <>
Panama City, "We're Really Hot now!" Fla. USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 16:38:37 (EDT) 

To Torsen: Your (furrow maker) can be used to good effect against these buzzworms. Just make sure you have someone to hold its head down. I think that is why all branches of the military deploy snipers in two man teams.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 20:20:55 (EDT) 
This is about the offensive posting: I know that an honest mistake was made in allowing that post to remain. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal or anything close. I'm also not a reactionary either. No one likes an extremist. Before I joined the Army at 18 years of age and maybe for a few years hence, I might have said things similar to that posting myself. After having been forced to work with all kinds of people under some pretty harsh conditions over the years though, I have run into a few folks who have honestly earned my respect. They weren't always white like me either. This experience has been a real eye opener for me and I am thankful that I have been through this. When I see comments like those of that posting I believe it undermines the credibility of the rest of us who who need the acceptance of mainstream America so we can GET OUT OF THE DEFENSE. An isolationist attitude will only bring the demise of shooting in America. We need to sell the idea of a need for a common defense. We need to recruit the soccer moms and other groups of typical non-shooters. Just because a person is different than me doesn't mean that I can afford to have him/her for an enemy. This site and shooters in general cannot afford the luxury of racial indifference. As shooters, we are a minority group. Most people don't shoot and don't care whether the shooting sports have a future. America is concerned with job security, income, lifestyle, education and the safety of their families. Shooting for recreation is not high among the priorities of the average American. Without a perceived need for guns, the typical voter is easily swayed toward supporting a particular candidate who promises education reform, etc. and on the back burner is rabidly anti-gun. The anti-gun stuff is not even a consideration to the average voter. Therefore we need all the help we can get. Allowing racially motivated comments to be published for world-wide review on a site charged with the implied mission of furthering the shooting sports is like shooting ourselves in the foot. Singling out a group of people to hate for reasons not connected to guns and shooting is kind of stupid. To a lot of people, hunters and shooters in general have a stereotype of being on the fringe of society: uneducated, narrow minded, unsophisticated, etc. I love to shoot and reload, etc. That doesn't mean that I'm weird or dangerous or that I don't have a social conscience, though. I confront this undeserved stereotype with plain logic and a calm demeanor at every opportunity. I have a healthy respect for the ambitions and methods of the operators and visitors of this site. I just want to ensure that I will always be able to shoot instead of just read about it. Let's be on the lookout here and in our personal lives for knuckleheads who would reflect discredit upon our good intentions and upon the legitimate shooting sports.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 20:21:46 (EDT) 
Rick: Your right the 20mm would be better than the M203 I guess I just dont go for all these high tech LASER's and such
Mike: Thanks for the eatin tips if I ever run into one Ill tell you how he tasted.

Are any of you fine gents planning on attending the National Matches this year at Camp Perry?
Couldent you build a spotting scope with interchanging straight and 45 eyepieces?
If any of you real good shots need a new mesurment for your shot groups 1 angstrom=0.0000000001 meters

Enjoy your 4th And thats an order
c/2nd LT. Keith Kacmar AFJROTC <>
Saugus, CA USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 20:30:58 (EDT) 

I'm going to try this again without the triple!!!! post I did the last time.

I've decided I want to purchase a Leupold tactical scope and I'm wondering if I can get some advice on who has the best prices.

This is one of the best sites I've found. Keep up the good work.

Sandy Cambron <>
Florence, KY USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 21:53:00 (EDT) 

Jesse - The TSN-1 Kowa will set you back about 700.00 with the eyepiece. This is a guess, the total will depend on the eyepiece you chose. The variable is good but the eye relief is rough to get used to, there is a nice 20x extended eye relief eye piece that is good for matchs. The TSN-1 may now be more difficult to buy because Kowa replaced it with a new scope with an 80mm Objective lens as opposed to the 77mm on the TSN-1 Scope. Add even more beans for that scope. If you don't have the money look at the lower end, but equally as good for objective lens diameter, TS-611, this is still an expensive scope though. The scopes can be found in several good shooting catalogues, and most gun stores can order them through Jerry's.

Gooch - I see you've gotten to the Ts in the dictionary! At least you aren't talking about Aardvarks anymore! And I said NO to the Slope stuff. Where is my motrin? Also agree with you on the "chasing the spotter" problem. Best to read mirage and estimate, shoot, then go right back to the spotting scope and see if the wind has changed. If it hasn't and you broke the shot clean, then you can let the spotter semi influence your next call. If it has changed, all bets are off! Same with the young buck, if you see the wind has changed between his estimate and shot, forget the spotter, its definately a lie!

Jinx - See that you are in Fayetteville, NC. Email me and we can discuss your question. The BC though will change. If your BC is for M118 and you are shooting 168 gr instead, then there will be a problem at the longer ranges for sure. On the 20 inch barrel, if you're shooting standard loads then I doubt if all your powder will burn. The increased friction on the polygon barrel won't make up enough for a complete powder burn, I don't believe. What say all of you gun gurus?

Steve - You're right, when all else disappears you only have what you feel! But I HATE that, because I know it will lie to me at the worse possible time!;-)

Scott and Russ - Becarful, Gooch is trying to stir things up! He's an evil man!

Out of here!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 21:55:08 (EDT) 

To Paul Headlee: AMEN BROTHER!! I didn't see the offensive post, it was before my time, but I can guess what it was.

To Joe Reiss: Got two Sigs, love em both, was just wondering about the SOCOM, (by the way, I hear it's BIG)!!!!
:) :) :) :)

To Gooch: OK dude, I damn near got killed crawling to the other side of my 600 meter target to bury those damn chicken bones and THEY DIDN'T HELP!!!!!!! What bogus info did you push on me? I too old for this crap! :) :)

Super 6 says the beer is cold, gotta go, everybody take care and stay safe, shoot straight!!!!!
Out here........
Big Ed <>
USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 22:09:06 (EDT) 


Hears my situation. I'm fitting my Remington 700 action with the new UARS and I would like to fit a polygonal rifled barrel to it; only if I can confirm what I've heard about it which is this:

Because of the nature of the rifling vs. conventional
rifling, barrel length can be shortened without any loss of velocity and even with the possibility of velocity gains. Now, Gemtech inc. which swears by this information fits their sniper systems with this barrel as an option to the customer. They state that from an average 24 inch button cut barrel the equivalent length to velocity in a polygonal rifled barrel is 20 inches with in some instances slight gains
in velocity.

Now they use a Harris barrel so I called West Harris to get it from the horses mouth and he confirms this and also states that his systems are at least shooting sub 1/2 MOA at 100 before they are even sold and this all with no loss in velocity and when I asked both companies about effects with the BDC they say that it's right on.

Next I looked up and called Lothar Walther who also makes Polygonal Rifled barrels and he confirms the velocity part as do the others but adds that their is about a 10% loss in
accuracy when compared to other conventional high end barrels. I compared this with the others and they both stated that they would guarantee sub 1 MOA at 100 but realistically expect sub 1/2 MOA.

Anyway, this polygonal rifling sounds like good stuff to me in theory but it seems so new that getting any further info is very limited that's why I'm putting this out to all the
experience on the Sniper Country.

Let me know what you think.
Fayetteville , USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 22:28:15 (EDT) 

To Russel, that would make her 1.80 meters, or 180 centimeters tall.
You have to multiply "feet by 0.3048"And meters into feet by
multiplying with 3.2808.
enough metrics now:)
I´ve also heard something bout Hornady making a "308 light magnum factory loads" Supposedly increasing the 308 ballistics close to 30.06 , has anybody heard anything about that?
And the strangest thing happened today as I was shooting at the range,,,my 308 started putting the 4 and 5 bullet in a seperate group about half an inch to the left,,, and did it for the rest of the day, do any of you know of a reason this happens, I checked all bolts and screws, even my loads, but everything seems to be in order, it really baffles me!!!

hope you enjoyed the metric lesson:)
straight shooting !!

Haraldur Gustafsson <>
egilsst, Iceland - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 23:40:51 (EDT) 

Rick, Thanks again. As Detective Joe Friday would say "I'm on it". If you need any help on commo questions, this former "wires and pliers" soldier is available. Later.
jesse <>
Utopia, USA - Friday, July 03, 1998 at 23:55:39 (EDT)

Paul: Enjoyed reading your post. I as well as others can relate to the undeserved and unwarranted stereotyping from the "normal" media (un)informed public.

Nathan: Happy belated birthday. Hope the hangover wasn't to bad.

Rick: I printed your email to James, and will mail the hard copy to New Mexico on Monday.

Bonnie D
Phoenix, Az USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 00:49:44 (EDT) 

O.K., let me get this straight. Kowa has the best spotting scopes. Does this hold true for use in the field, or just for use by instructors and high power shooters?


Mr. Bain <>
Somewhere, Somehow USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 01:12:01 (EDT) 

Just a comment on the "offensive site" that Paul has been hammering on.

You know, I have no use for racists. I imagine if we all dig deep enough in this cyber-world we could find a lot of things that are offensive to the "average" thinking human.
But you know what? The amendment that we all hold near and dear to our hearts as "shooters" wasn't written just to make sure that you can own a rifle to shoot high power matches with. It was written, in part, to protect the 1st amendment, the one you wish to deny to the jerk that offended you. I'm not afraid to let people say what they want to say. Let them burn the flag if they want to. Its their right to do that and it's my right to stomp their guts out. What goes around comes around. You restrict one persons rights because you don't agree with him, then we had all better standby.

I'd rather talk about slope dope than this stuf. But....there it is. Can't we all just get along?

Happy Birthday USA.

Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 01:19:15 (EDT) 

On the light magnum question. This is the deal according to an old friend of mine that used to work at Hornaday.

The loads use a compressed load of a special powder that results in a longer pressure curve in the bore of the weapon. In other words the chamber pressure is about the same as normal loads but the pressure stays at peak pressure for a longer duration. This results in a higher muzzle velocity without increasing the chamber pressure. Only problem was noted in gas operated weapons such as the M14. Due to the greater pressure further down the barrel they were breaking operating rods in M14s. They solved this problem by reducing the size of the gas port and everybody was fat dumb and happy.

That's the word I got. Anybody else?

Gooch (again) <same as last time>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 01:35:51 (EDT) 


You wild-eyed libertarian, you. Just what the Founding Fathers had in mind. I urge you all to read the Declaration of Independence -- you can get to it from our "links" page. 222 years ago, our Founders issued that document. Without it, and them, we wouldn't be here today.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 02:19:22 (EDT) 

That must have been some post from May, 1996 to cause such a stir now.
You're all wrong about metrics: A centimeter is a bug with a lot of legs.
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 02:35:30 (EDT) 

Fayetteville, USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 02:51:05 (EDT) 

Hello Everyone. Happy Fourth of July. Can anyone tell me if they have had any experience with the Springfield Armory 4-15x56 (3rd Generation) with Illuminated reticle for tactical use. Is it worth considering, or should I raid my saving and buy a B/L Tactical or a MK4. I am also considering the Leopold 6.5 -20 x50 matte, long range, 30mm w/target knob and side focus. I'm open to suggestions?
Al Ostapowicz <>
Ohio USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 07:00:23 (EDT) 
Oh, what a can of worms this racial stuff can be. Normally, I'd rather talk about skull fragmentation from a 168 Match King's impact at "x" foot-pounds. Still, I think it's appropriate to give "a little" thought to preserving our ability to shoot... instead of reading about doing it, as Paul mentioned.

Minorities. Something that's bothered me for a LONG time is that whenever you open most ANY of the major "gun rags" and turn to various articles on such-and-such events (IPSC, high-power, or what have you), you don't see many blacks. Or Hispanics. Lots of WHITE guys, that's for sure. Now, why IS that? I've always considered (thinking along the "soccer mom" line of reasoning), that here's a perfectly capable segment of society whose vote can make or break a lot of issues... gun rights, in our case. Wouldn't it make SENSE, then, to get blacks and Hispanics (and women, kids, the old geezer next door, the milkman...) out to a shooting range, put a gun in their hands, and show them (regardless of previous experience -- or not) how to shoot, and how to enjoy shooting? When I visit gunshops, I'll see blacks and Hispanics, occasionally (rarely, actually) at the gun counter, asking questions about such-and-such pistol. They usually want nine millimeters. I've been around enough years to get the idea that I think several minorities only know a small amount of "gun stuff" -- and I've never heard any blacks or Hispanics inquire about .40 Smith & Wessons, .357 Sigs, .357 TSWs, .32 H&R Magnums... and so on. I distinctly get the idea that the only "exposure" they're getting to guns and shooting is coming from movies and TV shows. Hey, guys? WE'RE SHOOTING OURSELVES IN THE FOOT! You know WHY they (minorities) don't know much about proper gun handling??? Because WE "white folks" haven't taken the time to get off our lazy asses and invite them out to the range! Soooo... is it any wonder that gangbangers, which I'm sure have a lot of white dudes, but I think I'm on target saying there's a chunk of minorities in gangs... think that you shoot pistols sideways, hold rifles from the hip, engage targets with "spray and pray" mentalities, and so on? Now, I'm not trying to start anything, and if you know me, I'm about as fair -- and blunt -- as they come... but I'm telling you, that unless we do something to include minorities, and start seeing Guns and American Handgunner and "Gun Rag of the Week" start showing some events that have a pretty fair number of blacks and Hispanics in attendance, AS PARTICIPANTS, I submit to you that we're going to have no one to blame but ourselves. Hey, look... I don't know how to do it, either. I think a "take a black guy to lunch" type of approach is pretty tacky, and racially offensive... but I know that unless we don't make a "conscious" effort to get some minorities into our "game" (tactical and precision rifle shooting, for most of us), then shame on us when minority-supported anti-gun bills pass through Congress and get signed into law. Maybe it's a "culture thing" (I'm white, so what in the heck do I know about what it's like to grow up as a black or Hispanic), but all I "do" know is that these folks, a lot of them anyway, are NOT getting a good "gun education" -- and what they do learn, if anything, is (often) that "guns are bad" and "guns are for killing" and "guns are for crime."

I'm with Gooch... I think, pathetic as the notion is to me, that you have every right to burn the American Flag. I think we shouldn't HAVE to pass a !@#%!@#% amendment to persuade people NOT to burn it. However, I also, personally, think I have every !#%@#&$%^* right to stomp your guts out and introduce your face to the pavement, repeatedly, in a vigorous and expeditious manner. So, thanks Paul, for bringing "the post" to our attention. It's a big site we have here, and I know we've missed things from "the early days" when we were taking possession of the site from Dave Reed. Thanks, Mr. Bain for beating me to cleaning the post. Now I'm sure we've all got friends who are in one minority group or another, but are we stopping by their houses and taking them to the range with us? Again, if we don't start showing some blacks and Hispanics (as well as other minorities -- and women and kids, too, not just the men of the family) how much hunky-dory fun it is to shoot teeny-tiny little groups into a target from a well-crafted, precision rifle, from several hundred yards away (for that matter, can WE do that???)... then we've got no one to blame but ourselves if people start saying that "gun rights" is a "whites only" issue.

And by the way... Happy Birthday, America!
Russell E. Taylor, Captain, Armor, United States Army Reserve <>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 07:15:18 (EDT) 

Big Ed:
You must not have sung the right encantation when you burried the chicken bones, crawl out there and do it again. Also the spell will not work well if you use bones from KFC, must be the special blend of hurbs and seasoning.

Paul J. Headlee:
Thank you. Stereotyping is always a bad idea. My wife is a diplomat (DEF.: Someone who is sent overseas to lie for their country) and on ocasion I acompany her to events that are peopled by the more sophisticaterd / educated members of our and other countries governments. When I tell one of these finely dressed folks that I am from West Virginia they almost always look down to see if I have shoes on. Usuelly I do.

I got my TSN-1 from OK Weber, Inc. of Euegen Oregon. Best price I could find at the time.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Wild, Wet, Warm, Wonderful, West (By God) Virginia USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 07:50:06 (EDT) 

Almost Forgot!


Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
The Indipent Thinking State of, West Virginia USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 08:11:18 (EDT) 

Do you think a proof reader would help?

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
Still can't spell, West Virginia USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 08:15:18 (EDT) 

Mr Bain - Kowa works in both instances. Use the large Kowa on the range for range shooting and in a TAC situation when long humps aren't required. Use the smaller Kowa TS-611, or others, for the crawl!

On the Ligth Magnum, we have used it and find that it works well. As Gooch stated though, don't introduce this round into ANY semi gun that you respect! We even placed the ammo in the sun, yuck, to see if higher temps would creat an overpressure situation. We had no sign of over pressure in the "loose" weapons, however if you pre-engrave your loads with a tight throat, becarful!

Al - I would stay away from the illuminated reticule! this causes a blinding effect under a lot of conditions. Other than that buy what you can afford, and is quality glass! If you are going for the tactical end get a variable with parallax adjustments. I personnally like Leupold but they are expensive! Fixed 10x is very limited but works well in our military environment.

HAPPY FOURTH all you wild eyed gun nuts!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 11:29:21 (EDT) 


STAY AWAY from Springfield glass (IMHO)! I don't know who is making their glass for them -- it used to be Burris -- but it's not that good. B&L, Leupold, even Tasco, but please not Springfield. They make good rifles and pistols, but the other stuff you should get elsewhere.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 11:40:15 (EDT) 

To Depity Dave: Now you tell me I can't use KFC bones! I tried two incantations and several top rated swear words with no help.

To Gooch: #1 I agree with what you said, they do have the right to say what they want and to burn the flag. I also agree that I have the right to kick their asses. I also see that you're ashamed to speak about the bones trick that you played on us. 600 meters is a LONG way for an old guy to crawl, you should be forced to drink warm, flat, old beer for a week and eat C rat eggs!!!!!!!!!

To Al: I agree with Mr Bain, Stay away from Springfield glass!!!!! A friend of mine has one on his 700 PSS and it sucks.....My ART II is old, (like me), but it still works and works VERY well, (like me)!!:) :) SUFFER GOOCH, you evil man:)

Big Ed <>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 13:02:36 (EDT) 

Happy Birthday guy's;

TO AL- your selection needs to depend on, among other things, your intended use. If tactical, the 50mm places your scope way above the barrel line and your head high. The high powers, even sometimes 8x, can blow out your vision in bad mirage.

On the issue of minorities, you are quite correct, WE as shooters are possibly the smallest minority group in the country. Whenever anyones rights are abridged, all of our rights are affected. We must stand for the freedoms rthe country was founded for. There is an old story told me by a friend that was a youth in Nazi Germany. The Gestapo came around to take away certain books and publications from a village. The owner of the books went to his fellow villagers and said "help me". He went to the baker, who said I dont have time to read so i don't care if your books are taken. He went to the mechanic who said i work so many hours I have no time for such nonsene as books. It goes on and on. Well the books were taken. THEN the Getapo came for the baker because they claimed his oven made too much smoke. He went to the book seller for help, who said, I dont' eat cakes so why do I care. ETC, ETC. The bottom line is, we don't need to care about any ones particular sport or activity, nor do we even have to appreciate its value. BUT WE DO have to support their freedom to enjoy it. Lets share our sport with others. All the alternative shooting styles are helping in this regard. We do have blacks and hispanics engaged in Sporting Clays for example. Also IPSC and Cowboy Action are geting some minority participation. Does your wife shoot? Do your children? Invite a non-shooter to the range with you. There is less fear of things known than unknown. Sorry for the soap box,

Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 13:19:55 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain: Could you or one of the other knowlegeable people on this list give an opinion of the old ART II and the M-21/M-25 SWS? It has worked well for me for many years but I am looking at some of the new fangeled bolt things.

Gooch: Still waiting for the proper incantations:)

USA: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 13:37:28 (EDT) 

Russell: Where is the post on the gunsmith's rifle for sale? Email me off list for the particulars, I may be interested....

Gunny Rayfield: Still waiting, you're getting to be like Gooch, you evil man.......

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 13:49:13 (EDT) 

Hi Scott,

I have misplaced the Phone Number For Spartan, would it be possible for you to pass that along to me again?

It seems that the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5 x 10 Long range M3 is dificult to find. At least that is what they are telling me at the Gun shop I frequent here.

So if anybody on the roster knows where to obtain one with the mil dot Ret. rather quickly....I would be greatfull for the info. the best price I can come up with here is 749.00...( of course it won't come in for 4 weeks!) plus the Fed gets 52 bucks from me to use against me in its anti gun battle.

Cory Wilson <>
Panama City, FL. USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 14:52:42 (EDT) 

Ranger9 - Have you talked to Premier Reticle yet? They are damn near a Leupold outlet. They make the reticles for the scope you are looking at.

Premier Reticle, Ltd.
920 Breckinridge Lane
Winchester, VA 22601

They give a military and police discount also.

Okay guys. On the chicken bone thing. Here it is. First of all the bones must be sun bleached. NOT FRESH!! You can really get in trouble with fresh bones. (KFC is way out of the question, Popeyes maybe with a good lot #) Some guys at Ft Benning tried fresh KFC bones a few years ago and....well does hurricane Andrew ring a bell? Anyway, take the bones and bury them to your FFPs' (firing point) 6 O'clock about 100-150 meters. Move back to your point and face and kneel towards Quantico, recite The Riflemans Creed loudly with feeling. End with a rousing rendition of the Micky Mouse Club song and you're set.

All of this must be performed in a loin cloth, shower shoes and a light coat of oil. Then sling lead like a mutha!!! You will be invincible. Be forwarned though. The Iraqis tried this but got Mecca confused with Quantico and look what happened. Bad JuJu.

I've got to get serious here or I'm going to get a visit from my old buddies in Beltsville, MD. I think it was either those drugs my parents did in Berkley in the late '60s or I have too many years on the firing line. The sun!!! Sorry guys this is just too much fun.

See you guys at the D&L shoot in August.
Thanks Rick now another guy is calling me evil. YOU ARE A MEAN MAN.

Gooch out.
Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 15:53:53 (EDT) 

Big Ed:

I have never used either the ART TEL (or ART I) or ART II, though I have examined a few. When I was researching scopes a few years ago for my Super Match M21, I talked to a number of duty slotted snipers. They informed me that the cams on the ART scopes had a tendency to loosed with usage, making for ever more imprecise shooting with the scopes. As a result, well before, I had heard of the M25, I decided to go with either the A.R.M.S. or B.P.T. mount and the M3 scope with mil-dot. Lo and behold, this is the frequent glass/mount combination for the M25.

The downside is cost. Leatherwood and DPMS are making the ART II scope with integral mount and interchangeable ballistic cams available again for a reasonable amount, about $800 retail, or about $550 dealer price. Even going with the A.R.M.S. mount, Leupold Q.R.W. rings and Vari-X III Tactical, you've spent more money than the ART II, though I believe long term you may have better wear. OTOH, the ART II is respectable and a venerable scope. It's also the historically correct scope for the M21.

Hope this helps. I meant no disrespect to ART users out there, just passing on what I heard.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 15:57:23 (EDT) 

Gooch: Quantico?????? That sounds too much like a Murine thang for me!!!!! Anything in the Fort Bragg direction?? I hope that the Sadler chant will be OK:-) It's close to my heart!!!!! You're still an evil man to make an old guy crawl 600 meters, why I had faith in you.......

Mr Bain: Thanks for the info on the ART II. I haven't had any problems with mine yet, (other than the CLP incident). Is the scope and mount the only diff between the 21 & 25?

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 16:10:56 (EDT) 


Thanks for the info/input....You do mean that they carry the scope itself, Correct?

WAIT.....KFC bones FRESH? Have you had yard bird from KFC recently? They have to qualify as SUN BLEACHED right in the box. I've had seagull shot off the fantail that tasted better than that crud.

Gee, I had never given thought to the ART II scope. Does it come with a ballistic cam for .300WM?
Cory Wilson <>
Panama City, FL. USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 16:29:35 (EDT) 

Light Mag: The Hornady Light Magnum loads are pretty nice, although if you're one of those wimpy guys like me that owns a light rifle and not just 16-pound thousand-yard hairsplitters you will definitely notice the increased recoil. I have used the 165gr Light Mags and have been pleased with them, although they sure don't hit anywhere near where the Federal 308Ms hit, no surprise there.
Federal also has its "high energy" line of ammo based on the same idea as the Hornady LM ammo, I sometimes use their stuff in .300 Win Mag but the price will make your head spin.

Regimental scopes are/were an interesting idea I looked into after reading my McBride and Shores, etc. I picked up a cheap one of that style from Orion Telescope but the optical quality of the glass is truly abysmal so it mostly collects dust in my office at work... Which reminds me, I'm fortunate enough to have a nice long view out of my office window and have ranged most of the landmarks via a USGS map, and this is very helpful in learning range estimation. I recommend this to those who can do likewise. It works from your home too of course.

The HK SOCOM pistol: as noted, this beast is huge. It certainly is too large for most people in the role most handguns fill- a convenient defensive firearm, possibly a backup to your longarm. Call me backwards but I'll take one of my 1911s or my Glock 30 over that beast any day. Your mileage may vary.

Cory: SWFA in Texas has a great selection of optics, they list the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5 x 10 Long range M3 at $699.95, they ship same day when in stock. I have no affiliation with them.... the number is (972) 223-0500.

Ed: Your spelling often gets really bad if you mistakenly use Nagua bones instead of chicken bones. But at lest tha nagua bonez keep thu buzzwurms aways. Oopz.

Happy 4th!

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 16:46:48 (EDT) 

Gooch and Russ: I don't mean to beat a dead horse but...while I support the First Ammendment (which the 3 of us are sworn to uphold and defend), I am under no obligation to have attributed to me or to my chosen group of collegues, by mere association the ravings of some undeveloped grey matter. The potential damage done to our shooting future by keeping such an offensive comment close to ours is greater than that done to our First Ammendment rights by having him do so elsewhere. Freedom allows the opportunity to do many things that we shouldn't do, like dragging a guy behind a pickup truck to his death. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should do that something. Nonetheless there will always be a segment of society that can't grasp that and to associate ourselves with knuckleheads like the one who posted a racially offensive comment on a site about shooting on the basis that he is protected under the First Ammendment is not in the best interest of the 3 of us being able to shoot in years to come.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 17:42:27 (EDT) 
Big Ed:

Check my piece on the M21 and M25 in the Articles and Commentary section of this site.

Among Naugas, the First Amendment, and French vs. German women, I would choose women as the preferred non-sniping topic. But that's just me. . . ;-)

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 18:44:35 (EDT) 

Paul - I think we are all within a 8 digit grid square on agreeing on the principles of the topic in question. The bottom line is that we can have this converstation in this country. Don't confuse freedom with liberty and remember that with liberty comes responsibilities. Hey, I'll stand by your side to defend your rights and as close to as I have to to defend the mystery poster. It's better than some of the alternatives that some people around the world deal with. Hey if you don't like what the guy has to say, don't read it. Remember this is a "public" forum, kind of like a town hall meeting. Jerks show up some time.

Ranger9 - I haven't seen their latest cataloge but I'll bet they have your scope. Also Dick Thomas the owner of the place can help you out with any questions you may have. He wore me out on the phone one day talking about mils, minutes and the sort. Have some Motrin handy. He made my brain hurt.

Big Ed! Good God lad! Don't screw with the formula!! We are already stretching the limits of paranormal psychology and the laws of physics as we know them with the chicken bones to begin with. I got that procedure from a Gullah voodoo priestest in Frogmore, SC. (She was the daughter of a former recruit that had ran away from Parris Island. He survived in the low country for years on shrimp, boiled shrimp, steamed shrimp, shrimp etufe (?), broiled shrimp... Sorry got off the subject.) Anyway, I had to undergo 4 days of drunken cerimonies to get it out of her. You ever see the movie Altered States. Childs play to what I had to suffer through!! Let me move my family and dogs back to Oregon before you try your version. If I get us far enough back into the woods and at high enough of an elevation maybe we can survive the results of your messing around. Watch out guys the end is near!!!

Look, maybe Rick has an SF cerimony or something but don't fool with mother nature!!! Don't you SF types do something with gerbles?

Gooch out.
Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 18:56:31 (EDT) 

To Cory Wilson: DPMS at 800-578-3767 has the ART II scopes and yes there is a cam for 300 Win mag and a lot of other rounds and ranges. Mine is from the military so I cannot give an opinion on the civilian ones. My friends that have them swear by them and I love mine!

To Gooch: YOU ARE AN EVIL MAN!!!!! I thought Murines did things with gerbles when their Navy "buddies" wern't around!

To Dave: Nauga bones, out Gooch!!

To Mr. Bane: Sorry to be a pain but as I said I'm old and my eyes aren't what they once were. I looked at your note on the M21/25 SWS and didn't see if the scopes and rings/mounts were the only diff between the two.....

To Rick: Fire mission, Goouch in the open, request HE and WP, fire for effect.......

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 20:33:14 (EDT) 

Mr Bain: My sincere apologies for ever doubting you!!!! I got my head out of my ass and went to the articles section as you stated and read your VERY FINE article on the M21/25 SWS. Thank you for your help! This opens some new fields of thought for me, (and that's not easy as slow as I am)! I
am now torn between buying a new M-25, (building one really)
buying one of those bolt thingies, or modifing my M-21. I have the fibeglass stock on my M21 now, (a highly modified one) and it works well so I hate to screw with it.

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 20:50:35 (EDT) 

Chicken bones, the reason it doesn't work is thats the old method, get with the times people. The real method is to pray to the Sniper Gods!!! Place one large candle in the middle of a room the night before qualification. Cammie up and put on your ghillie suit. Then you must dance or stalk around the candle and drink Nauga piss. NOW YOU ARE INDUSTRUCTABLE!!!

Happy 4th!!!

You have my vote for a new topic!! I'm with Gooch slope Dope and some asprin.
Sgt. Gimmellie
va USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 22:28:37 (EDT) 

Gimmellie - Checked out the new SOF, good going dude. How much praying to the gods did you do for that excellent head shot?

Gooch - I'm with ya all the way. You can burn the flag, but not with me standing by. I tried the 175 grain Federal Gold Match, they shoot better than the 168's - thankx.

p.s. - Gooch, the Arkansas sun is making you crazy.

Semper Fi
Shreveport, La USA - Saturday, July 04, 1998 at 23:33:39 (EDT) 

Big Ed:The Socom is really big:)I'll just keep my lil' ole H&K USP.45 and be 100% happy with that. Cause' half of the the time I am able to hit the broadside of a hanger with it:)

What's the word on the Burris Black Diamond Tactical Scope? Never seen one and no one around here has any good info on it. Also never have seen a Burris product before and was wondering if their glass is any good. Mr.Baine's post kinda made me shakey on them.

Happy Birthday to the United States of America!!God Bless the men who had the foresight to place their grand ideas on paper and the had the gumption to stand and fight for them.
Stagger <>
Terre Haute, In USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 01:37:14 (EDT) 

Gentlemen: I certainly do appreciate the comments on the Springfield Scope and will definitely shy away them. Looks like my next purchase will drain my pocketbook by about 700 dollars, but in this case I have to listlen to the experts in the field. Think this column is great. Enjoy all the tech advice, and the humor (i.e. I heard about buzzworm a long time ago, but never knew what they were - Thanx). Oh, by the way Depity Dave. Proof Readers don't hep - theys jus az dum az we iz. And I know what you mean about West Virginny women, cuz I married one. Wouldn't have any other.

X rings to all!

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz.worldnet.att,net>
Myhomebase, Ohio USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 06:47:32 (EDT)


Have been busy and have not had time to wrtie. Last thursday we had a rep from HK at our academy, he had with him a few nice toys for us to play with, one being a newG36 weapons system. No, i aint a sniper rifle but it was fun to play with. It comes in 5.56mm, has an optional 3.5x intrigal scope/sight and a red dot sighting system, one can even get NOD's for it that dont raise the stock/spot weld. it is select fire and is only sold to law enforcement agencies.
it shoots well and is controlable even on spray and pray, good news for the guy's that double as snipers and entry team operators, no, i dont mean use it for a sniper rifle and then go bust in doors, i mean use it when you have to work the entry team as it is much smaller than the 16 and much more controlable. i have a question, i need to replace some old M-49's with new spotting scopes, does anyone have any information on dealers for these items. My sgt. needs three distributors so we can check the bids, yea, i know, BS in action, but that is reality. best to all this 4th of july and thank you all that served, no matter what branch or when.

reaper6 out
john w <reaper6>
tx USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 09:33:36 (EDT) 

To all,

I have a book that mentions a special stock liner made by Brookfield Precesion used in the M-25 SWS. It's supposed to allow removal/replacement of the action/bbl group without changin zero, and without breaking down the bedding. Does anybody have experience w/this, and if it works, where can I get one? I use my M-1A for High Power competetion, and am putting a bunch of rounds through it, and don't want to have to re-bed every 1,000-1,500 rounds.(I know, many HP shooters are going to mouse guns, but I paid a bunch of $ for my Supermatch and dammit, I want to keep using it! Besides with Uncle Sam giving me a few thouand rounds of Fed Match, hey, why switch?)
Timothy J Sarchett <>
Clovis, NM USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 11:46:58 (EDT) 

Hello again:)
Tomas, will get my batch of the 550 after the weekend
and will let you know how I like it.
but i dont have any of the tecno knowhow, like the most
exellent people that frequent this place, but i´ll tell you if I like it or not
I´m still looking for manufacturer of 6mm.284 brass
so if anybody can help then please email or post it here.
with lots of thanks beforehand.

Haraldur"metric"Gustafsson <>
Egilsst., Iceland - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 12:12:43 (EDT) 

Reaper6: There is a dealer who advertises in the Gun List (it's not SWFA) and you want to talk to him about selling your M49s. This guy has all sorts of interesting military stuff and has good prices.

If you are going to replace the scopes with current issue ones, B&L and another contractor make the M144. See our "Tools" page. The M144 is similar to a commercial B&L scope; it just has stronger seals and anti-laser coatings on the glass.

Timothy: You have Scott Duff's book. Great reference manual. Check out William J. Ricca. He advertises in Shotgun News.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 12:15:02 (EDT) 

Sgt Gimmellie - You young whipper snapper!! The candle and the sniper god thing is the old way! I'm trying to help you guys out here. The sniper god thing goes back to May of 1982 when I graduated from SSIS. We took a deer skull affixed it to the end of a broom handle and placed two small candles in it's eye sockets. We then took one of the instructors using a red table cloth for a cape and he stood on the pool table in the WTBn club and we all prayed to the great "Spiffmo." As the graduation party wore on we emptied the fire extinguishers, broke another instructors knee (he dove off of the pool table and a student missed the catch.) practiced carrier quals and got the bartender fired. Prety mellow time.

The chicken bones cerimony was first used at the 1994 Eastern Division Matches at Stone Bay Ranges by the Parris Island Shooting Team. One of my students used it last school (seriously, guy was kind of loonie). He passed marksmanship but failed stalking.

Why do snipers end up with this off the wall sense of humor. It must come from stalking through hazmat sites or something.

Brent - Glad to see the 175's worked for you. We in the military are waiting like kids at Christmas time for the M118LR which gave birth to the 175 Gold Medal load.

Reaper6 - Check out the Bausch and Lomb 15x45 in-line scope. The Army uses it as the M144. I like it.

As far as angle shooting goes. We pretty much all know about the need to find map distance versus straight line distance. This is more or less the simplest way to counter the effects but I don't really think that it truely explain the reason why. According to some of my ballistics bubbas there is also a gravity factor. The explaination that I heard is that the velocity of the projectile counteracts some of the effects of gravity resluting in less bullet drop at a given range and that there is less surface area exposed to gravity as the bullet is traveling at an angle relative to the surface of the earth. Can any body elaborate on the physics of this IN LAYMAN TERMS!! Or better yet does any body know of any articles on the subject?
Come on Rick.
Sorry about the length SCC. Gooch out.
Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 12:22:18 (EDT) 

Hey guys that's a great idea! [censored], wouldn't want the sorry no-load puss nuts @#$^&** to miss with that one well placed round [censored].


Oh another thing on buring Old Glory! It's not a TRUE AMERICAN'S right to burn our flag. If these people do this, they are not AMERICANS in my book. They are sorry pieces of pathetic [expletive deleted] and should be hung on sight.

[Editor's note: The First Amendment protects you against the government's attempts to muzzle your speech. It does not stop private actors, such as Sniper Country, from doing so in fora such as the Roster. Candid, open, rational discourse is always the order of the day. Anonymous, inflammatory rhetoric is discouraged, however.]
Stay Alert Stay Alive
Somewhere, Outthere USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 12:57:01 (EDT) 


You have the idea on the "slope Dope" issue. Try drawing yourself a right triangle with its usual 45 degree side. The base is 7" and the 90 degree side vertical is 7". Imagine you and your rifle are at the top, looking down the 45 degree angle to the base. The base represents then plane of the earth. ( we will forget about earth curvature for the time being since it is minimal in effect). The forces of Gravity works at essentially right angles to the earth. Instead of inches, just extrapolate or assume the 7" sides are actaully 700yds. The ratios will be the same. Your lasered distance to the target then would be 980 yds.. Your base leg ( read the distance paralell to the earth) is 700 yds. Thus , the bullet travels 980 yds to intersect the target but the force of gravity only works on it for an effctive 700 yds. Thus you can see it does not make any difference if the shot is up or down the angle. The bullet is not acted upon by the full force of gravity for the 980 yds but only an angular moment. Either shot would then hit high if shot up or down with the 980 yd dope. That is about the best explanation I can give you. New topic- do you feel the Corps continues to instill the true feeling for the rifle that it did in the "Old Corps". When I went to boot camp we were issued our weapon and learned its serial number and slept with it till we knew as well as we knew ouselve. I wen in the Corps in 1957 and kept the same weapon ( my M-1 ) from boot camp on until the system changed to the M-14 . To this day, I can recite its serial number as easy as my own name. Has the Corps gone soft on riflemen?

James Craig
Msgt Ret
Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 16:29:26 (EDT) 

Handguns for self defence.

Why do americans prefer to use useless calibers like .40S&W or .45ACP. These rounds do not penetrate one layer of kevlar on an enemy wearing bodyarmour.

Here the right stuff for dealing with enemy bodyarmour, 9mm M39B:

Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 16:35:05 (EDT) 

Gooch - I still haven't found my Motrin! Slope dope is based on gravity distance as opposed to real distance. That is why the map works and laser range finders fail. Draw a right angle triangle with you at the top and target at the bottom of the LONG leg. The long leg is laser distance while the short horizontal leg is the gravity distance. That is the leg for range. WARNING - the long leg is the wind leg because the bullet still has to fly that distance. This works out to the longer ranges of 800 meters. After that the decrease in velocity causes the round to drop more than the calculated gravity distance. This when the turkey bones, not chicken bones Gooch, come into play. I have a chart that calculates the gravity distance from laser distance that I could share if anyone is interested. That is except GOOCH, he's an evil, evil man! Gerbles?

Tim Sarchett and Big Ed - Stock liner for the M21 was built by Brookfield for the M21 to decrease bedding damage during disassembly of the weapon. This was, and is, a major problem with the M21. By bedding the liner into a McMillian stock, the weapon could be disassembled without undue damage to the bedding, and recoil was disappaited throughout the stock better lengthening the life of the weapon. For range shooting the M21 is an excellent and venerable weapon system. For the field it is too fragile and zero changes occur with debris entering the stock.

John W. and Reaper6 - The M144 is an ecellent scope, just be prepared to buy extra tripods because the ones that come with the scope are plastic and CHEAP aluminum that strips and breaks. We have replaced almost all of our tripods due to breakage and they are just now 1 year old!

Where IS my Motrin? Keep shooting guys.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 16:39:37 (EDT) 

S/C Council:

Maybe y'all have discussed this in the past, but how about setting up the duty roster as a list server? Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners (MCRGO) runs one with good results as do other interest groups like The Unofficial HK USP Home Page, etc.
Lance M. Johnston <>
MI USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 17:10:38 (EDT) 

I cannot speak for everyone. The m39B I can see is an excellent round for body-armored clad enemies but in regard to those without it, I feel overpenetration would be the result. The 40S&W and 45ACP provide the "knockdown" power to put your man on the ground. However, the 45ACP lack the velocity to penetrate body armor. The 40S&W in the old "Black Talon" config. would penetrate a trauma plate and vest on a IIIA armor at 30 yards. The new version of this round is called the Winchester Ranger SXT 180gr. Whatever round you chose I feel initial centermass shots followed by a head shot is the only way to be sure. If you cannot assure yourself a head shot than you are in a situation that a pistol is inappropriate.

Rounds Out
Brent <>
Shreveport, La USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 17:45:58 (EDT) 

MSgt Craig - Hell yes they have gone soft! You just hit on one of the major problems that the marksmanship community is trying to deal with in the Corps.

I will probably get a lot of hate mail on this but here goes.
There has been a lot of senior ranking officers in the Corps that are bent on reducing the rifle marksmanship program down to what the Army has got. Right now at Camp Lejuene there is a LtCol running the Stone Bay ranges who is trying to get HQMC to approve one day rifle qualification. Zero and shoot for qual in one day.

Same type of idiots that came up with the charlie course in the late 60's. They look at rifle marksmanship as a training requirement, not a warrior skill. These guys are so ate up with the new high speed wiz bang weapons like MRLS and Cruise missles and with "Managing" instead of "leading" that they forget that in places like Bosnia, Grenada, Panama and Somalia that it is the individual rifleman with his weapon that makes the difference most of the time. They are going to repeat the mistake of training for the last war again. High tech did it in the gulf so lets take that model as gospel. I have a friend who is in charge of marksmanship doctrine for the Corps and he told me last week that they are looking at a 5% across the board cut in ammunition for training. They are looking at FATS simulators and the such to fill in the gap.

The Corps still prides itself in every Marine being a rifleman and it is better off than the Army is but they are on the slippery slope so to speak.

You used to have a "marksmanship" guy in charge at Weapons Training Battalion in Quantico. Col Willis, then LtCol Cuddy and others before them. Now they just fill the slot with a Col who needs a command and WTBn is the marksmanship proponent in the Corps. The problem is that every Officer in the Corps is an expert on marksmanship. Just ask them. They can't spell BZO but they know the best.

It's more than a relfection on the Corps though. It's the whole country. We used to make heroes of guys like Morris Fischer, (Marine Olympic shooter back in the 20's) and Col MacMillian (another Olympian) but now its detrimental to an officers' career to be a "shooter". When was the last time you saw a General with a Competition in arms badge on his uniform? General Holcomb (WWII Comandant) a Distinguished Rifleman was the last one I know of.

Sorry again SSC. Gooch

Gooch <>
Sherwod, AR USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 18:06:36 (EDT) 

Gooch: I got the crap right this time!!!! It's Barry's song, not the Murine stuff). I took the bones out to 5,000 meters, did the chant, came back and cleaned the target with my Marlin .22 with the new 4X800 scope!! OK a little lie there, it's a .22 mag:-) Try it, you'll like it!

Rick: Where's my arty?????????

Raider 6 out
Big Ed <>
USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 19:34:19 (EDT) 

I think someone in HQMC or the CNO or both told everyone at Saipan and Iwo Jima that it was going to be a cakewalk. ALL THAT hightech Naval Gunffire and Corsair bombing and strafing werer to have leveled the jap opposition.???? Tell that to the survivors of the first assault wave. High tech may have its place, but who grabs the dirt, holds it and searches it to secure it, then provides security to see it remains ours??? Duuh? It still sounds like a mud Marine rifleman to me. Lock and Load and keep em coming downrange. If we can't shoot, the bad guys will run us over.

Semper Fi
James Craig
Msgt Ret
Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 20:43:29 (EDT) 

Gooch - Agree with you 100%. The high tech and gizmo boys believe that the computer will win the day and that the airplanes will make everything a cake walk ala Jim Craig and Iwo. They look at history and see only what they want to see and not what contridicts their little world. I have, for 14 years, pointed at the Corps and their marksmanship program as how the army should do things. Now the Corps is going to immulate the Army! This is backwards and wrong headed (opps sounds like Clinton, sorry guys). Ever since train fire computers and the latest Nintindo (no s**t guys) trainer, the army is going from bad to worse. To hear that the Marines are following suit is a bitter pill to swallow. But with all the touchy feely training now mandated by the services and the need to manage instead of lead, what do you expect from todays "warrior leaders"? I do not mean to offend the REAL officers and leaders out there, that commit was aimed at the REMF Pogs that only understand book learning and don't understand the area where the rubber meets the road!

Sorry this got long but that is a sore point for many in the services that must live with the nonsense that is now being purpatrated upon the young that will some day fight for this country. History repeats if only they would learn.

Keep up the good fight Gooch, Out.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 22:06:49 (EDT) 

To Big Ed: Personally, for troops in the open, I prefer DPICM in 'effect' -- but that's just me, I guess.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, July 05, 1998 at 22:25:02 (EDT)

To Torf:
Torf,criminals almost never have body armor,it's so rare as to not be worth worrying about.You seem to think that armor piercing ammo is important.The ammo you prefer might penetrate kevlar but in the gunfight which is much more likely to happen,where the bad guy is Not wearing kevlar,this ammo would be a very poor manstopper.
My question to you is"Why do so many Europeans prefer useless calibers like the 9mm when a superior manstopper such as the .45ACP is available?"
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 00:23:57 (EDT) 
Hey Boss man. If you are going to get on this thing and show your ass like your last post at least give an email address so the rest of us Marines can flame on you for making the rest of us look like the jarheads some people believe us to be!!! Semper Fi means a lot!! You throw that around and you better be on the ball!

If that's you big D knock it off dude and have a beer and chill. Nobody likes a flag burner.

You got MY e-mail address.

Gooch <>
Sherwood , AR USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 01:06:08 (EDT) 

.45ACP vs 9mm.

This is an endless debate, but:

Norway adopted the .45ACP in 1914 and the last ones were phased out ca. 1985. 9mm has better penetration on heavy winter clothing and bodyarmour.

My view is military. If a military sniper carries a handgun it must be able to penetrate bodyarmour. You don't know who your next enemy are. Look closly at the pictures of the soldiers in Kosovo. No need for the .45 there.

About overpenetration. I think you win more than you loose i a military conflict with an AP-handgun.
Oslo, Norway - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 03:31:31 (EDT) 

Big Ed: In an effort to start things a-flying and to get every 14 lovers dander up, I'll give you this advice (insert tongue in cheek), DO NOT BUY an M14/21/M1A. If total precision is your goal, save your money for a good bolt gun. If on the other hand you want an M21 for historical reasons, or because you are a masocist and like flirting with crown damage each time you clean, by all means, buy the M21. Also, for the money you'll spend on that gas gun, you can have a far more accurate bolt gun. I won't even go into the bedding issues...

There. Let the battle begin. See Gooch...I can stir them up too...Mr. Bain is probably sticking pins in his Scott doll even as I type this!
Scott <>
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 07:17:10 (EDT) 

Slope Dope?
Never one to shy away from self promotion: Ca
heck out "The Slope Doper" at the "In Review" section on equipment.

When ask to explain it I take an 8 1/2 X 11 sheet of paper turn it on it's long side draw a diagonal line from one high corner to the oposit low corner. Next I draw an arrow pointing at the base and lapel it "Gravity". From this point it is easy to explain the diference between actuel distance and gravity influnced distence.

"The Slope Doper" just makes it easier!

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
Basking in the summer in, Beautiful West Virginia USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 07:22:46 (EDT) 

The comments on the decline of Marine marksmanship reminds me of what the Airforce went through during the early days of the Vietnam war. All the "gurus" foretold the end of the air-to-air cannon. Only the new fangled missile would be useful in the new era. The Dogfight was over as a viable combat option. Arial warfare would be a thing measured in miles, not yards. Gee, guess what, as usual they were dead wrong and soon cannon had to be added to our aircraft because, not surprisingly, MIGs had cannon and used them effectively! History never repeats itself, but the idiots who study at it sure try their best to do an instant replay! Not surprisingly, the current doctrine is again leaning toward smart weapons. Why? Procurement is based on myopia. The suits at the top love the glamour of the digital weapon. Grunt work and fist fights are not glamorous and out of vogue…until proven needed again.

Kodiak: 9mm vs. .45…must we go here again? To reiterate several months worth of debate: Try not to get shot by either! In top quality ammo, the ability of one to out perform the other, in terms of stopping power, is marginal. The mind set of the target ultimately determines how effective these rounds will be. To illustrate the point, an acquaintance shot a charging perp nine times with a .45 cal using Federal Hydro-shok. Bad guy went down on round nine, collapsing against the police officer. So much for the vaunted power of our favorite caliber. To call the 9mm useless is simply uninformed. Any pistol is better than nothing, but none are REAL stoppers. Most pistol rounds stop a human by causing the drastic lowering the blood pressure till the person can not operate any longer. That hardly qualifies as "stopping power". Bad guy can grunt through the loss of blood and keep on fighting, till he passes out, if his mindset is strong enough, or the drugs good enough. The only real stoppers are high power rifle rounds. Blow a guys lung out his mouth, he goes down. Take his cranium off, he goes down, ad nauseum. At any rate, as far as the 9v45 debate goes, I like them both for various mode of carry. But I wouldn’t sweat one over the other.

Scott <>
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 08:06:20 (EDT) 

Scott: I've HAD an M21 for MANY years and I love it! Just trying to make up my old and feeble mind about getting an M25 or one of them bolt thingies. My M21 is the same as I had in SE Asia except that I threw away the piece of crap wood stock and used fiberglass that has been modded, VERY modded.....

Russell: SAY WHAT in the open? This ain't troops son, it's a GOOCH!!!!! Where's that ad for the sniper rifle from your friend? Or did my old eyes miss it???????

Gooch: You're an EVIL man!!

Rick: Arty???????

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 08:26:42 (EDT) 

Hello everyone,hope you had a great weekend.
My Computer was down over the weekend, did I miss something.
Good info about the slope dope.
Rick, I got a hold of Steve, check your mail. I also refered him to this site.


Torsten <>
Germany - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 09:45:47 (EDT) 


we are getting a "Nintendo" in the Bundeswehr as well. They plan to do all training on the video screen and only go and shoot with the draftees once during their 10 Month term. This would be for only a week !!!
The plan is also to close all our 300 Meter ranges due to the much better simulation training which will save so much money !!! But at what cost if the s... ever hits the fan?

Now we get the new G-36´s and we dont get to shoot them.
Poor Germany

Germany - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 09:56:02 (EDT) 

Sgt. Gimmellie,

run around a lit candle with a Ghillie on,
Man thats asking for it. How about posing with your SWS like the staue of liberty on a golfcourse during a nice Thunderboomer !!

Did you ever do the dance of the flaming a..holes ??


Oberfeldwebel Erning
Germany - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 10:24:12 (EDT) 

To Torf:
The body armor you see soldiers wearing are flak vests which are made to stop shrapnel not bullets.Also a soldier is much more likely to have a rifle than a police officer so a flak vest will be even more useless.

To Scott:
I'm hardly uninformred about the 9mm/.45 debate.Being in law enforcement for almost twenty years I have seen quite a few people who were shot with various calibers including 9mms and .45s.
Most gunfights are at very close range so stopping your opponent as quickly as possible is the most important thing.It does you no good to give him a fatal wound from which he will die in a few minutes because in that few minutes he is still trying to kill you.You were only partly correct when you mentioned a drastic loss in blood pressure is what stops fights.You forgot to mention damage to vital organs and more importantly extreme shock to the nervous system.I've heard of several cases where someone recieved a nonfatal centermass .45 shot but almost instantly lost conciousness and/or went into shock,in either case the fight was over.
The armor piercing rounds that Torf likes have very little stopping power although they obviously can inflict fatal wounds.Most 9mm hollow points will expand to a smaller diamter than the .45 comes out of the muzzle.
Ever here of the FBI shootout with two bank robbers in Florida?The two bad guys were hit a total of about 40 times,mostly with 9mms before they were finally killed.In that time that they were being filled with holes they managed to kill several agents and wound several more.As a side note the autopsies showed no drugs or alcohol in their systems.After this the FBI got rid of the 9mms and went to .45s and 10mm Mags.
There are many,many cases in the books that show the lack of stopping power of the 9mm.
Sorry to be so long winded.

USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 10:53:30 (EDT)

Gooch, I am duly impressed by your knowledge of sniper mojo.
The years I spent in our corps beloved sand box of 29 palms has taught me many great wonders, there were slight variations but the result was very much the same.
Stout staff from stalking area, A few strands of ghillie, wings of a raven shot off an unkown distance range, skull of a deer(preferably found on stalking range), long string of coyote vertabrae. (we all know the coyote has long standing major mojo), One designated shooter must care for the bone stick for his tour then pass it at secret commencement at EAS. Oh yes and the most important rule of desert magic and range estimation, never trust a smiling gecko.
aardvark out
R. Smith <>
Twin Falls, Id USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 13:20:39 (EDT) 
On the subject of sidearm stopping power, when I first started on the department I carried a glock 9mm, after I left the dept. I went to a S&W 40 I felt more comfortable the the 40 than the 9mm, call it personal choice or whatever. Currently I am looking to go back to the .45 Reason being, stopping power, I don't want the assailant to stagger to me, I want him down on the deck pulling dust through a sucking chest wound, (if he still has a lung), I personally do like someone getting close enough to me that I have to use a sidearm but I do trust the .45 more than any other caliber out there today. I can't speak for any other departmets out there but if there are any range officers here take note, we were taught the mozambique method of close combat, on the short course there was a string of fire of a double tap to the chest followed by one between the running lights to offset body armor protection on the assailant. If you want to do shock pattern anylasis take various pistols out and fire them at old cast iron sink tops, the porcelan will come off precisely matching the shock pattern of the round. I was very surprised when a old wheel gun ex-trooper showed me that trick. I was sold ever since. On the corps- well its sad but true, just got word they wanted to limit the qual range for our long shooters to about 700 yds for school purposes, DUMB DUMB DUMB, hopefully some old salt will round file that notion fast.

no more posts today dangit

R. Smith <>
Twin Falls, Id. USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 13:55:50 (EDT) 

To Big Ed: "Troops in the open," (why does everyone hate Gooch?) and it was "in effect." (That is, when firing for effect.) DPICM is "dual-purpose improved conventional munitions."

Interesting article at the L.A. Times website.

There's an interesting thread on the Kennedy Assassination Rifle, WITHOUT all the conspiracy crap, if anyone's interested in learning about the rifle itself. (Yes, we all know it was junk, I'm just posting the information.)
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 14:01:28 (EDT)

Gooch: I'm back from leave. You are right about the First Amendment stuff. I'm glad to have people like you on "our" side.

TorF: In all the MOUT training I've done, we always had to improvise because of all the variables. It's just not like being out in the woods. If a we encounter enough guys wearing body armor, after a while we would just begin to shoot them in other body parts. The stomach and groin have a lot of blood vessels. Body armor doesn't cover much. Whatever works. A .45 would be ideal in a MOUT environment because one round from it will do the work of 2 or 3 rounds of 9mm. Down in the sewers and in other close quarter engagements, a handgun is worth its weight in gold. Any gun will kill when used properly and the 9mm is certainly no exception. The .45 is just more forgiving with respect to shooter error.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 14:28:09 (EDT) 

To All: I just came back from vacation I stayed at Camp Perry for the weekend. Things dont look as bad as what has been reported. The roof of the mess-hall is mostly gone as
are the roofs of the brown brick motel rooms towards the the
motel reservation office. The B series of modular huts close to commercial row lost some shingles. Not a single one of the old P.O.W. huts blew down. It looks like business as usual. Everything is being prepared for the upcoming matches. I took lots of pictures and would be willing to send them here if interested.
Slope dope: Just to keep the ball rolling, there is no easy formula to apply to adjust elevation for any range, any load. If ever there was a good use for a sniper log book this is it. Also it is my experience that most people tend to mis-judge actual elevation angles badly when in excess of 20 degrees. The best way to get the right elevation adjustment corrections is to download a ballistics program like PCB (the link is available from this website) and play with it and write the values down in your log book.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 16:44:31 (EDT)

It appears that the slope dope thing didn't prove as much as a challenge as I though it would be. A little background..The reason I asked that question was because of all of the voodoo formulas I hear the topic of slope dope is usually the best. Except for the time a SEAL told me the reason the bullet start below your line of sight is because the bullet drops at first for a few hundred yards then it begins its climb then drops back into the target! One day you're a boiler tech the next a commando!! Let's give our selves a big group hug for being so smart about slope dope!

Now the .45 vs 9mm. I swear guys, can anbody name a subject that has eaten up more space in gun rags over the last 20 years than this one? I was voicing my opinion about the superiority of the .45 ACP to a Sig Sauer rep back when the USMC was testing the 9mm's. I told him that the 9mm was a wimp and he looked at me and in his Germanic accent he replied, "Vell, I guess no Americaner soldiers ver killed by 9mm in Vorld Var vun und tuu." Eh.. Well any way I bought a P226 from him.

Why has everyone decided that .357 mag revolvers are a bad thing. Average cop gunfight is around 2 rounds right? Okay, auto loading pistols are better. Back to 9mm vs .45. Urey Patrick of the FBI academy wrote an article for one of the rags back in 90-91. It was after the Dade County abortion. At the end of the article he made the statement that a .4-anything (read forty-anything) was the wasy to go. I guess my opinion is use the biggest caliber you can shoot well. I'll take a center mass heart shot with a .22LR over a miss with a .600 nitro anyday.

Failure drills can be taught to the head or to the groin. Obviously the head shot will stop the fight quicker but the groin will stop a charging bull if you take out the pelvic girdle. Head shots are a pretty tough accomplishment when you are getting charged. Marine solution engage the target center mass until you get off a failure drill.

Give me a twelve gauge with slugs and buck shot. Select slug man!

Later guys.

Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 20:49:13 (EDT) 

Several weeks ago, I asked for the NATO stock number for a spotting scope. Preferrably Canadian with -21- in the NSN, eh.

Here are the results of my search (one call to Ottawa, eh):

"Telescope, straight prism type, adjustible (with case) 60 mm obj, 20X" 6650-21-871-6071 ($216.00)

"Mount Telescope, microadjustable, metal" 6650-21-871-6070, or 6650-21-149-6621 ($51.88)

This is a Bushnell, not a Kowa, eh.

As for selection criteria, I agree that a straight line of sight is better. I traded off my 45 degree telescope because I couldn't seem to find the target.

Terry Warner
Terry Warner
Canada - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 21:40:11 (EDT) 

To all marines past and present, if what my amigo gooch states is true, we are in a hurt locker! Marines can not be trained to win by computers! It takes a set of brass balls to train and lead marines. They seem to make the same mistakes over and over again, after all most of the officers lead from the rear anyway! FATS machines have a place, amusments parks maybe? This is one of the main reasons i left, lessons learned, usually at the cost of some grunts life, then forgotten, by the idiots that cost him his life to begin with. It aint the number of rounds we send down range, it is the number of hits that win battles, sure, smart bombs work well, but they cant mop up the straglers, nor can they secure an area after they go bang. crap like this makes my head hurt! anyway, just ramblin on. keep your heads down
reaper 6 out, sand bagged and diggin in
John W <reaper6>
TX USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 22:56:51 (EDT) 
Kodiak: Some of my friends and I tried one of those new vests that all GIs now wear and we were surprised at what it stopped! At 15 feet we hit it with .357mag, .44 mag, .22mag, 9mm, .40cal, 12ga 00buck and 12 ga slugs, NOT ONE went through the vest! Food for thought????? (and .45)...

Russell: Got out in 1971 so these new terms are new to me:-) We just called 'em by name when calling arty. Thanks for the post, looks interesting.

Gooch: Love ya man, mean it!!!!!!!!

Gunny Rayfield: Call me back, that guy's M-25 looks VERY good............

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Monday, July 06, 1998 at 23:55:25 (EDT) 

Oh Meister Rick,

do you, or anyone else have any info about the effects of altitude changes on bullet impact ?
I am at about 300 Feet here and will be going to about 8250 Feet shortly.
I know that the bullet will have less drag and thus drop, but is there a way to figure it out beforehand ??

Also, is wind "thinner" at higher altitudes and does the formula change ??

Hmmmpf ?

Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 02:10:57 (EDT) 

To Big Ed:
Big guy I wasn't aware of the new vests.I seriously doubt however that criminals on the street or our enemies on the battlefield will be wearing our new vests.I saw a video training tape a few years ago, in one part of the tape they were shooting military vests from several countries.They were all pretty much useless against handguns and completely useless against rifles.If a new tougher generation of vests becomes common I will then start to worry about them but until then I will stay with the .45 loaded with hollow points over the 9mm loaded with armor piercing rounds.

USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 02:54:25 (EDT) 

Gooch: You are absolutely right about marksmanship training. But the problem of wrong marksmanship training is not a problem of the Corps or US Army it´s a problem of all modern armies. They think of simulators as the only means of training. Simulators can only be a supplement to real training.
For an officer in todays armies it is more important to be a good runner than a good shooter. Suppose they exercise more to run away than to fight. But I see no difference between CO´s and NCO´s. At the latest reserve training we had some classes to prepare reserve Co´s and NCO´s for some field firing at squad level.(Ridiculous ain´t it?)For instructors they preferred those who made courses in the recent time. We had one junior NCO who fresh from the course didn´t know how to get into a kneeling supported and unsupported position! These positions are the most important positions in attack and delay or everywhere where you do not have prepared or fortified positions. Try to aim from prone position at your counterpart when gras is only knee high.


Ralf <>
RV, Germany - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 03:51:04 (EDT) 

About Spotting scopes: I see you have two reviews , Bushnell and a Leupold....but you talk alot about a Kowa ??? What makes the Kowa better than the Leupold?? I have a 25x50 w/crosshair and it beats the old m-49 hands down !!!! More info please !!
On the 9mm vs .45.....I was a 91B3S (SF Medic NCO)for 6 years and fortunately or otherwise saw the results of more than my share of small arms wounds. No doubt the 9mm has more velocity, but thats it. Give me a .45 any day, when I shoot a street critter , I want it to stay DOWN...ask the FBI about what the 9mm doesn't do !!! One of the main reasons the Europeans use the 9mm as a side arm is the fact that they also carry a "squirt gun" of some design in 9mm and it helps to have the side arm use the same ammunition. I realise that my background info is old (Europe '75-78) but don't think its too far off . Still have yet to see any personal body armor that stops .308 at any range !!! For that matter ANY rifle of any caliber !!!!!! Now where is my medicinal alcohol brandy??? or was it Jack Daniels ??
Will "not so innocent" observer
Somewhere in the Deep South, USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 04:39:57 (EDT) 

I've tested the Zeiss 20X60S binocs in the field. It was incredible.

Unfortunatly I can't justify (afford...) the price, $4000.- !!

It certenly brings spotting into another world.

A Zeiss salesrep told me you can identify a 1,5cm dia. black object on a white background standing unsupported at 1000m.
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 06:07:40 (EDT) 

Kodiak: No problem on your message length. Very interesting actually. I am pretty familiar with the Platt and Maddox event. There is a real example of mindset over coming body damage. There is no doubt that the .45 is considered more "powerful" than the 9mm, but even in the Florida situation, would it have made a difference? Like I said, when it comes down to it, I do not want to be shot by either round. I totally agree with you about military ball. In the case of FMJ vs FMJ, the .45 is better. But that the 9mm HP opens up only a less than the .45 has to be weighed against the size and controllability of the handgun for concealed carry (talking civilian stuff here). For summer in shorts and t-shirt, I'd much rather carry a 9mm, faults be damned. Like you said, it'll be a never ending controversy, which makes for fun reading aye?

Next topic: Federal GM2 (175 grain) vs. Talon Whitefeather? Anyone have any testing data?

To the gent who asked why no SC review of Kowa: Sorry! This is my mistake. I have been using one for two High Power seasons and simply have not bothered to write a review. Short and sweet: On Clarity and resolution, it is superior to most of the equally priced competion. The big "L" can not even compete.
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 07:41:37 (EDT) 

Kodiack: I agree and I do carry a .45, just wanted to impart the info about the "new" PASGT vests. The military says they won't stop anything and that's BS of the highest order. They certainly WILL NOT stop any rifle round but there are vests out there with metal trauma plates that will! A common street criminal won't be wearing one but then look at the LA shoot out a few months back....Makes head shots look good doesn't it? Arty is still my favorite round though Camp Perry tends to frown on the use of it at matches:-)

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 09:30:43 (EDT) 

.260Rem (6.5-08) for sniping.

In Scandinavia the 6.5X55 constantly outperforms the .308win in longrange targetshooting. Now you americans have your own factory 6.5mm targetround. I've read somewere that Mike Rock makes 6.5mm 5R-rifled barrels. That means that your favourite gunsmith can make a shortaction M25 in .260Rem and top it with a Leupold 10X M3 with the .300WM/220gr/2650fps ballistic cam. Barrellife with molycoated bullets should be around 6-8000 rounds.

Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 09:45:01 (EDT) 

Kodiak: I think you have mixed up some shooting with others.
It the Miami Shoot Out in the 80´s FBI agents shot totally
around 40 rounds. They hit three times. One hit was a non-
surviable wound through Platts forearm/bicep and it destroyed his liver. After this Platt still managed to shoot one-handed his Mini-14 rifle and kill one FBI Agent and wound another.

In the end one FBI agent shot and killed both Platt and Maxwell(?) once with a 38 Special. The bullet was the 158 grain LHPSWC+p. Not a fierce manstopper but a solid performer in any case. BTW FBI is back to 9x19 guns and has dropped all 10 mm Autos, except MP510mm. Actually they plan to switch to 40S&W, or so I have read in the papers.

These robbers were ex- 82nd Airborne soldiers that were dishonorably discharged. They probably were in better shape than most of us and had got through training the never-give-an-inch attitude even when they knew that they will be killed or caught. This determination and adrenalin together with a good conditon can make you imprevious to most handguns even though you´re not using drugs.

In a police situation you will always have problems. Either the round penetrates too much or too little. Actually one should have a thinking bullet that could calculate how much expansion and penetration are needed.

My 2 cents.

Hexa <>
Helsinki, Finland - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 10:20:44 (EDT) 

If you have questions or comments to pose to the readers of this website, please post them here, on the Roster. Of late we have noticed some back and forth comments on the Emporium. ThE Emporium section is reserved for sale items only. All verbal interplay should be done on the Roster. Thanks guy and gals!
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 10:55:56 (EDT) 
Let's see, I've been off the board for a while (went up to the Second Chance shoot...cost me ten days leave, but it was worth it! First time back in five years, and man did I miss it!)

Gooch: You're right, Devil Dog, about the Corps' marksmanship training problems. If only you knew how right. E-mail me sometime and we'll talk. (I'm trying to save bandwidth here.)

45 v 9 debate, my two cents: Either is capable of killing a man quite effectively. As Scott said, w/good ammo, there's a marginal difference. Still, both are mere pistol rounds. Almost by definition, they are underpowered (BOTH!!). If you want to stop a man immediately with a pistol, you MUST, I say again MUST create massive trauma to the brain, OR achieve a central nervous system hit that paralyzes him. Anything else may eventually kill him, but if he's in the right frame of mind he can remain hostile until he becomes unconscious. Heart, liver, kidneys, arterial hits to the extremities may eventually kill him, but even with the LARGEST handguns, hits in these areas are no guarantee of an immediate cessastion of hostilities. Moral of the story? Arm yourself with a handgun you feel comfortable with, practice failure drills, and if you are really expecting trouble carry a rifle, shotgun, or something even bigger!
Matt <>
GA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 13:47:52 (EDT) 

To Scott:
I was just comparing the pros and cons of the bullets themselves,not the guns.However they do make some nice small .45s nowdays.
Ball ammo in any caliber is a poor manstopper.9mm hollowpoints are extremely unimpressive after opening up.45 hollowpoints are great,the Sierra 185 JHP has a cavity so big that you can almost put a 9mm bullet inside of it.I've fired them into ballistic putty and had them expand to about the size of a quarter.

To Hexa:
I read an article about that 1986 FBI shootout a few years back.Those robbers were hit MUCH more than three times,I'll try to get the article again so I can find out the exact number of bullet wounds.It was really an amazing story complete with pictures.Where did you here that the FBI is going back to 9mms?I just read a story about the new .45s that the FBI is ordering.

To Matt:
I agree with you on the need for immediately stopping your opponent.This is where the 9mm has proven itself to be horribly inferior.Because in most gunfights your opponent is so close every second that he can shoot back you can also be killed.This is why you need all the advantages
you can get starting with a caliber that will stop him as soon as possible,the .45 and .357 are the best.
A comfortable gun is nice but it's much more important to have one that is capable of stopping the fight quickly.Carrying a proven manstopper gives me a tremendous amount of comfort.

USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 16:54:49 (EDT) 

Reaper 6 (John W)

Please e-mail me re: your post about M-49 spotting scopes. Thanks.

T. Bach Melick <>
New Orleans, LA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 17:50:54 (EDT) 


I'd be interested in that article on the FBI shootout, if you find it. I read the write-ups Ayoob did in American Handgunner, but I don't recall any photos. I'd be interested in any other stories about the Miami shootout as well.

[I heard] the FBI awarded the contract for 5000 1911-style pistols and 30,000 magazines to Springfield Armory. These pistols were supposed to be for the field office SWAT, and for HRT. Colt protested the tests, and the FBI is now re-evaluating the contract, which is on hold.

T. Bach Melick <>
New Orleans, LA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 18:47:46 (EDT) 

civilian new to long range shooting, anybody know of a place to shoot over 300yds in s.w. pa?? thanks.
raz <>
pittsburgh, pa USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 20:03:58 (EDT) 
Torsten. On the elevation change. The SSIS, Quantico did a test with the Feds in 1987 to test the computer models at the time. They zeroed two M40A1's at Quantico (sea level) and proceded out west and fired at similiar temperatures at 7500 'asl, 9500'asl and 12,000'asl. They fired 2 lots of special ball, lapua 170gr, Federal Match 168gr and USMC G1 (1000yd match load). The results are too long to duplicate in entirity here but this is the summary of the report. The first number is distance to tgt (yds) and the second is rise in moa above zero (average of all loads).




Got the autopsy report on M.L. Platt form the Dade County Shooting. He was hit 12 times. Once through the scalp, one through the (r) arm into lungs, one through (r) arm into soft tissue, once through (r) forearm, 2 through (r) foot, 3 through (L) foot, one (L) upper chest bruised spinal cord at C-5, 1 in post. (r) shoulder, 1 post. (r) thigh.

That shoot-out was a bad deal for the Feds. Said a lot about superior motivation and refusal to give up. Feds lacked agressivness from what I saw in the reinactment. One of the perps assaulted through them instead of the other way around. Former Marine finished the dirtbags off!

All is not lost with the USMC marksmanship guys. There are good people fighting the battle at Quantico and elseware.


Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 20:25:36 (EDT) 

To Gooch: I'm also a .357 Magnum fan. Short-distance, short-duration gunfights don't "require" high-capacity handguns. Hey, I'm all for firepower, but a wheelgun in the hands of a man who knows how to use it is enough.

To Torsten: "Thin wind?" Have you been eating that liquor-filled pudding stuff again, like you had at the restaurant we went to??? Yes, as you note, altitude will affect trajectory. Download the PCB software from our site and play with the numbers to see the results. Wind, however, is wind (unless a certified meteorologist can explain otherwise). You either have a LOT of wind or a LITTLE wind, but "thin wind?" Interesting notion, though.

On Big Ed's comment about the 28 Feb 97 North Hollywood shootout: Would someone PUH-LEASE tell me why, oh why, it took "forever" to bring those guys down??? I mean, silly me, but if body shots aren't getting the job done (I'm from the standard "center-of-mass" school like Gooch), then intelligence dictates some headshots are in order. I'm not slamming law enforcement (at least I don't think I am), but "why" didn't someone figure out, early on, to concentrate some firepower onto the craniums of those two guys? What was the failure here? I've watched the tapes over and over and over, and... GOOD LORD... there were gobs of opportunities for headshots! Boy, THIS ought to get some commentary going! (And Gooch? I don't think you're evil.)

To Hexa: Good comment on mindset. And anyone who's shot a deer in the heart (a "killing" shot, right?) knows that they can run for yards and yards before dropping. Men are the same way, and adrenalin is not to be underestimated either.

To all: I picked up the August issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine today (well, four copies, actually). On the article about the Hathcock charity shoot, I was an armor crewman, not an armorer; I live in Silvis and WORK in Rock Island (at the Defense MegaCenter on Rock Island Arsenal); and they referred to our own Scott Powers, on one occasion, as "Powell" -- but other than that, it was a good piece. I also bought Stephen Hunter's "Time to Hunt" and will get to it "someday."
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 20:52:32 (EDT) 

Gooch: Is everyone by the name of Gooch nutty? Got one around here and he's crazy too!
Minorities topic: My brother-in-law is USMC Major Ret. (Mustang) and also a black American. Notice I said black and not Afro-American because America is NOT hyphenated! This man is of the highest character and the very model you speak of and does not hold to race as a crutch or club, but feels we are given two things in life; a name and an opportunity.
Besides, he's instructed me in long range shooting(the man can shoot!). We all need men of his caliber,like yourselves,to instruct,teach,and defend this great country so EVRERYONE can enjoy those rights guaranteed by our constitution!
Question:Has anyone built a .308 on a long action(allowing for longer seating depth)? And why not .300win. for the military if the advantage is from 600yds. and farther. Seems like the .308 runs out of gas at about 600 to 700yds., or is the new long range ammo that much improved? Be gentle, I'm new at this!
Scott Freeman <>
Splitlip, Mo USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 22:34:43 (EDT) 
9x19 vs. .45ACP: Oh jeez, isn't it enouigh that this argument is played out everywhere else, does it have to happen here to? I like the .45 myself, but the 9 works too. Neither is a death ray and as always the man in more important than the gun. Fini. ;)

Vests: Actually, the PASGT vest will stop most all .45ACP and some 9x19 but not all. (It falls between a II and a IIIa on the NIJ standards as I recall.) Some of this depends on angle of impact, etc. but the snipers will just use their rifles to shoot through these anyhow, and if for some reason they have to use a pistol just be ready with your friend Mr. Failure Drill. (And that's a proper failure drill, to the head, not the pelvic area!) Now of course, the "Ranger Armor" and other types that are seeing field use now are another story...

FBI shootout: Well, for those of you so inclined I know that the Intl'l. Wound Ballistics Assn. recently had this offering for its subscribers: "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight" by W. French Anderson, M.D. I have a copy and it's got some good info and many really nasty pics (mostly of Platt) from the coroner's office. Yech! The book provided some additional insight to the shootout for me, including photos of the crime scene and such. Not for the squeamish!

Mike Lau's new book: "The Military and Police Sniper", arrived today. I've only scanned through it (pausing to read a few pages here and there) but it really looks like a winner! I'd say it's better than I had anticipated, maybe the best thing since "The Ultimate Sniper", really a must-have filled with great information.

Another book: Alaska Enfield Headquarters ( has reprints of the Canadian Army "Manual of Training, Infantry Training, Infantry Platoon Weapons: Sniping" (1951) available. It's rather interesting, especially if you're into the #4 Mk1(T) and related kit. Also quite interesting as it also presents all the information in a format designed for instructors to use. This is another one that belongs on the shelf of any "complete library".

Lastly: Got the new SOF, and Gooch's mannequin head looks perfect! Also there's about a 5 page review of Custom Concealment's ghillie suits in the new Small Arms Review, including the comment that the Sate Dept. has classified them as "defense articles" requiring the appropriate permits for export...

Time to get back to Lau's book!
Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 22:55:21 (EDT) 

Of course, that was supposed to be "State Dept.".... Also sorry for the lengthy post SCC! (Dave in open, Fire For Effect with FAE...) :)
Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 23:00:16 (EDT) 
Torsten- Wie Gehts Mensch
The issue with regard to altitude change is not completely resolved by the Marine Corps testing related in the prior post herein. The issue is more complex and relates to the effects of a change in density altitude or barometric pressure, and to the temperature change form you zero temp. Another set of good reasons for a log book of your shooting conditions. I find that a change of 1 moa for a change of 20% up or down from both your zero temperature and barometric pressure do the trick. If the temp is lower, the air is "denser" thus the round will be low, so add 1moa etc,

TorF- the 260 Rem is not the 6.5x55 Swede. It is a shortened case version. Why someone wants to mess with a good cartridge is beyond me. It was supposedly done to make a semi-auto capable round.

Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 23:21:00 (EDT) 

Dave - That's Gimmellie not Gooch in SOF. Both Marines, both 8541's but his belly is a lot smaller than mine. Got that same slack jaw look about him though doesn't he? Mariiines!!! Just kidding G!

Have you guys noticed that these sniper matches are getting a lot more publicity. Hmmmm.

Anybody know of any shooting schools needing a hand? I know an instructor looking for work. His name is Gooch. If I can't find something I might have to get a real job!!!!! Tried it once. Sold Auto parts after I got out of the Corps. About dragged a guy across the counter one day when he threatend my co worker if his alternator didn't fit. Nose picking geeks!

Anybody going to make it to Canada? I'll be leaving for a training session in Vermont the 13th of July be back on the 4th of August. How will I get my SC fix!!!!!!

"Talk" to you guys later. Wait...

It appears that you guys are starting to think of me as a air headed, "silly" kind of guy. Mannnn, Maybe I should display a more professional demeanor. You lnow like an SF guy or something. You see guys I don't have any sniper friends around here. Sure a few cops, a migrant farm worker or two, you know the top of the gene pool. So you guys are all I have. Just turned 40, retiring from the Is there life after the military? At least I've got my health. My knees do hurt though.

It just occured to me that this posting has no useful purpose except to clarify the impropper ID of G-man. Sorry. I guess I'll go to myself.. and my dogs. Gooch out. "snif"

Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, July 07, 1998 at 23:57:56 (EDT) 

To T. Mellick:
I also read Ayoobs article on the FBI shootout,he's an excellant writer.I'll try to dig up the article that has more details and photos and mail the magazine to you if you like but it might take some time because I have a few thousand magazines to look through to find it.I have to start throwing them out.

To Dave:
Dave,can you fill us in on the details of the wounds on the bank robbers in that shootout?It's been a few years since I read the detailed analysis of that fight and I can't remember the whole thing.Gooch gave us some good info about Platt
(thanks Gooch) but we need to know about the other one now.
USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 00:45:39 (EDT) 

Gooch: You beat me to the correction. Here I was looking at the back of "The Military and Police Sniper" and slowly a dim bulb lit up over my head as I realized my error... Back to remedial KIMs school for me... Sorry Gimmellie...

Kodiak: Sorry, but listing all the wounds with details would probably be a bit much! I think the subject is almost "off topic" for the page as it is, but typing it all out would eat up a ton o' space, and I type slooooowly so I'd be up all night! :) Ayoob's two articles list them all though, and both articles are also in "Ayoob Files: The Book" if you can't locate the magazines. Or email me offline & I'll see what I can do... We now return you to the more standard sniper fare...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 01:41:53 (EDT) 

thanks a lot, that should help, I´ll let you know if it worked after I return from my little trip to the Alps.
your figure is about what I have in my log on temprature.
I may get a barometric gadget one of these days.
Of course there is thin wind, did you ever eat a blooming onion ?? But is it not logical that when the air is thinner at higher altitudes, that then moving thinner air(thinn wind eh) has less effect on a bullet that still has the same density? I may have been the Zabajone, but on the other hand ???
I thought this was a long distance rifle page ??
Vell hier is my zwei Pfennige! If one 9mm is good three should be better! I like the THV 9x19 at 2700fps, and pssssst! they penetrate vests Psssst!

Keep shooting till they are down and stay down.
"thin Wind" Torsten <>
wet Germany - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 03:06:28 (EDT) 

To Jim Craig, Re. .260Rem vs. 6.5X55.

The .260 fits in a short action Rem700 wich is preferred by most shooters in a M25-rig. The 6.5X55 needs the long action. Case capasity and performace are almost identical.

A 6.5mm, 140gr VLD bullet can easily be loaded to match the trajectory of the 220 Sierra MK in a .300Winmag, 2600-2700fps. The 6.5/130gr VLD matches Sierra .30/190gr MK in the WM, 2900fps. A 140gr 6.5mm VLD molycoated bullet at 2650fps is probably the best choice because you get a barrellife of 6-8000rounds. If you increase the speed to 2900fps you're down to 4000 rounds. I have no experience with barrellife in a .300Winmag., 2-3000rounds?

My point is that a sniper can have the ballistics, trajectory and winddrift, of a .300Winmag in a standard 6.5mm round. At a given range, I don't have the ball.tables in front of me, the 6.5mm rounds outraces and are more more powerful than the .308Win/168gr/175gr loads.

Another bonus with the 6.5mm is that it is easier to shoot well than the .308Win and the .300Winmag. Less recoil means improved shooting. That's why the 6mm BR loaded with 105gr VLD's are cleaning up the 300m international matches.

Malcolm Cooper, the founder of Accuracy International, used the 7-08 in the 300m UIT events. I saw him once on training the day before a big match shooting only 10X's. Then declearing he couldn't wear out his matchbarrel and replaced it on the spot with a "training-barrel". Then he continiued shooting 10X's. He won the next day.
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 04:40:48 (EDT) 

August Issue of SOF Mag. on the 7th of July ??
I bet you Americans also have the new 1999 Model Pick ém up´s for sale next week ! With a Cash back deal!
Do you have next weeks lottery numbers by chance ??
- Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 05:23:17 (EDT) 
To Kodiak: Sorry that I remembered the total hits a little bit wrong (3 vs. 18, a little bit fault with my memory :-). In any case the huge "9x19 is a wimp load"-discussion centered around the one 9 mm Silvertip bullet which did exactly what it was designed to do i.e. penetrate 10-12" and expand well. It did all this. Unfortunately it started to expand already in Platt´s heavy arm muscle. A FMJ bullet would have penetrated in this case better and might have stopped the massacere sooner. In any case no police officer willingly carries FMJ ammo in his pistol. (In Germany they have to use FMJ´s, but they do not like it either).

I heard that those 45´s go to the FBI´s new and bigger HRT team. BTW which RESCUE team needs 5000 pistols ? Are they building their own army ?

In any case 9x19 SIGs and Glocks are included in the list of approved guns for the FBI agents although 45 ACP, 40 S&W and probably SIG 357 are/will be approved. For small statured female officers a Colt 1911 can be a little too much of a good thing for carrying it undercover.

In any case nothing beats a rifle in stopping power. Except a bigger rifle, that is :-) Someone already stated that ALL handguns are not very powerful and that is a fact. People carry pistols/revolvers only because they are convinient to carry, not because they are THE weapon to stop all and every confrontation in a millisecond. For the police officer the most powerful weapon usually is the radio. After his mind, of course :-)

Some military snipers may also be able to call artillery on the spot and that can help sometimes too.

Hexa <>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 06:44:00 (EDT) 

Wheel Guns!
Revolvers have there place, but because I'm in law enforcement and work alone with back-up usuelly 30 minuts or more away I'll stay with my H&K USP and a pair of back-up magizines (off duty it is my Para Ordnance P-13 and extra mags). I've seen the training film on the FBI, Miami Shootout and the one thing I remember is that all the participants said "You CAN NOT have too much amunition!" If a handgun may require more than one shot to stop an attacker, what do you do if you have a whole car (convertable) full of attackers? Also, you can't reload a revolver with one hand out of service (one of the most common sites for incoming hits).

I'll put my soap box away now.

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
Raining AGAIN in, Wild WET West Virginia USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 07:08:46 (EDT) 

M25? hmmm... M24 of course.

I'm doing mistakes in full auto...
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 07:26:50 (EDT) 

To Dave: Have you ever tried shooting at a PASGT vest? The comments I made concerning the shots fired into this vest were done by me and two of my friends with the weapons and not ONE penetrated. The vest was on a torso dummy and we fired straight on, from the side and the back and there was NO penetration. These vests are better than advertised by far.

To Russell: I agree, from the films I've seen there were more than enough chances for head shots that would have ended that mess right away.

To Gooch: There is life after the military, but wait, you were a Murine.....(Knees hurt, Navy boys around, gerbels, what's next?????????:-)

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 08:38:27 (EDT) 

My intrest is in optics/scopes and ammo.
J.M. Clark MRCS(SW) AD USN (18yrs) <>
Newport News, Va. USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 09:55:10 (EDT) 
First I would like to say what a great sight!!! I'am also new into to the computer age so please bear with me!
I have been an avid long range shooter for a long time but I'am not into position shooting so I've never competed in any matches. When I found your sight the other day I read where GOOCH is going to Wyoming to the tactical shoot in August. It sounds as though you might just do this for a living and I was hopeing you might be able to help me out.
I'am 51 years old and I know I'am probably to old to be out there running around with you young pups but I've just got to try it. My question is for GOOCH or any one else who may have more insight into this. what type of equiptment will I need other than my rifle and ammo? I have a camel back water pack but I figure I'll need some type of pack and God knows what else so any input would be greatly appreciated.
Pat murphy <>
Pierre , SD USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 12:30:46 (EDT) 
45 vs 9mm The ability to quickly come to bear on a head target is somewhat enhanced by the lighter 9mm guns and their reduced recoil helps the second shot speed. Just talking about gun control factor by the shooter's hand.The 9mm smaller bullet is some better at penetration in the round nose versions in fmj. .22magnum might be better. More lighter ammo can be carried and at longer ranges it is probably easier to shoot and more accurate. The .45 kills quicker and stops sooner if armour is not present and bullet designs are the same.I'll take it every time if I know I'm going to a gun fight.
6.5mm good round. 25-06 just as good out here on the plains it is super in the wind. .264 Win mag was a S. Kicker if there ever was one. Barrels though, that's another story.
Ballistics can be used to prove some of this wrong maybe but my mind is set.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 12:53:29 (EDT) 

TorF- I agree that one can often teach students to shoot
more effectively with a lighter cartridge. I was involved peripherially in a special project done with the USMC a few years ago. The project involved tersting a new sound suppressor which was also a very effective muzzle break.

The developer of this system came to Camp Pendleton to demo the units and showed how it was effective in suppressing both the sound and recoil signature and felt recoil on the .50ca sniper rifle. He also set up a blind test with the M-14 where he took Marine Boots with no prior firearms skills or training and broke them inot two groups. One group went through firearms qualification training with the M-14 equipped with the sound and recoil system and the other with standard M-14's. Man for man, the suppressed system shooters fired dramaticaslly better scores.

ON THE Issue of Law Enforcement Officers in Miami or otherwise, being criticized for not taking head shots to put down the crook. Consider that competitive shooters at matchs, such as the Steel Challenge can consistently make multiple steel plate ( read head shots) in very short time; buuut; no one is shooting back. I have been shot at and I have seen a lot of people shot at, Many who wore Expert badges on their chest. When the adrenaline flows and the rounds are coming in, it is a miracle that they even shoot back let alone shoot accurately. I have seen shoot outs at less than 10 yards where 3 Officers emptied their firearms at a crook, who also emptied his at them. Result, no officers hit and the crook got one in his leg. I agree it shouldn't be that way if they are trained but these guys all shot well on a range. It is hard to criticize until you are ducking your head. Adrenaline and anxiety do funny things.

Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 12:55:14 (EDT) 

I am looking for some help with realoading some ammo. If anyone can help me with the .300 win. mag.
The load I am looking at is the barnes X bullet. In particular the 165 grain BT. It has a BC of .505. I am looking to load it as hot as I can accurately get it and can't find it in the loading manuals. If anyone has any info including external ballistics please contact me.
I am also looking to get in touch with a couple of companies and need the phone numbers. They are:
Jarrett Rifles Inc.
as before any info would be appreciated.
I need these companies for a special rifle I am looking to build and any comments are appreciated. The rifle will be a Weatherby 30-378 action with a heavy bull barrel from jarrett and a custom stock from H&S if I can get in touch with them.

PS: It is great to see a Sniper page with competent people, and comments. Keep up the great work!!! "jeff"
Jeff Cooper <>
Memphis, Tn USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 13:33:21 (EDT) 

Great web site! I do a lot of long range pistol/rifle target shooting and hunting. I'm going through a LOT of powder, primers and bullets. Anyone have some good suggestions where I can get good prices? I'm looking for a place where I can get 8lb kegs of RL22, Unique, IMR4227 and bricks of primers (Federal 215 lg rifle magnum, lg pistol magnum, sm pistol, 409 shotgun). I think I saw some good comments on where to pick up reasonable moly tumbling material.

Jon Manley <>
Nashua, NH USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 13:34:01 (EDT)

I'm not a certifyed meterologist but have had 3 college courses for my avation degree in weather.
Wind doesn't get thin because of elevation changes, the air gets thinner as elevation changes, but wind is a measured term and it may take more thin air to push the meter to get 10 mph but it is still 10 mph.
It works the same with bullets. It may take more of it to drift the bullet 10 mph worth but it is still 10 mph worth of drift.
This may be a little late on the subject of scopes but I have to say it. Check out the Redfield LE12. I am very pleased with mine. It has ajustable objective, target knobs, mil-dot reticle "but is available with many others" , and is 3X12X56. Yes it is tall but for my use it is great. anyone else who has one tell me what you think about them. they are expensive though. about $900 retail.
sorry this is so long, but I thought I might could help.
Jeff Cooper <>
Memphis, tn USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 15:20:07 (EDT) 
This subject has probably come up more than once, but I'm new at this so please bear with me. As I have been reading about various long range rifles, be they varmint rifles, benchrest rifles, or tactical/sniper rifles, I see two basic stock types. One) The what I think of as the "typical" sporter/varmint rifle stock such as the H-S Precision Pro Varminter stock that came with my Rem 700 VSSF. A slightly modified version of this type is like the H-S Precision "Police" version, which supposedly has different palm swells and foreend shape. Two) The "tactical or sniper" type stock, typified by the H-S Precision "Long Range" or "Tactical" model, and the McMillan A2/A3 stocks. These tactical stocks seem to differ mostly in the pistol grip area, which is much more vertical, and in adjustable cheek pieces and length of pull.

The question: What's the deal with the more vertical grip on the tactical rifles? What is it's advantage? I assume it has some utility for military type shooting, but I also see some write-ups and articles on varmint rifles with the McMillan A2 stock.

I am a newbie at this long range shooting. I have a Rem 700 VSSF in .223 that has been a lot of fun. I now want to build something similar in .308 that will be used for our local club's informal 400 and 600 yard shoots, and to do load development punching holes in targets at 100 yds. (Mostly I want to build it because I like building things, and such a rifle would be "neat.") I will probably shoot it mostly from a front rest or a bipod (I have the Harris BS model). Usually from a bench, but sometimes from a prone position with the bipod.

Do I want to put a "Varminter" or "tactical" stock on this rifle? I've stared at the H-S Precision and McMillan catalogs for hours, and the answer isn't jumping out at me. I also see the new UARS stock that is due out from Gunsite later this year that looks interesting (I like hi-tech.) What to do?

Sorry for the long post, but can someone out there educate me a little on the various stock configurations? All comments are welcome.


Bruce C. <>
Copperas Cove, TX USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 15:22:59 (EDT) 

To Russ/Kodiak/Gooch/Tor:

On appropriate handgun calibers. A discussion that warms my heart! My following revelations are towards selecting the right caliber to match up with your worst case scenerio.

As a one time private detective I used a 9mm because it was very concealable and I could carry lots of ammo. My goal was not to kill someone, but to scare them off or wound them. When I quit that job and just wanted a handgun to hunt with (black bear) I switched to a 44mag. I won't name the manufacture, but the western grip would allow the gun to just rock back in my hand (instead of moving my arm) and I could get back on target with another lethal round. Last year I decided to go after some Russian wild boar. Everything I read and saw described a very tough opponent that has no qualms about chewing off your manhood with 4" razor sharp tusks if it can get within range. I again selected 44mag for large diameter heavy grain stopping power. I found I was going to have to penetrate very heavy bone and was dealing with an animal with extreme vitality. I bought a T/C 44mag 14" barrel with open sights. I needed a weapon I could carry slung across my chest through heavy thickets on the mountain sides of Tenn.

I painted the front post white and the rear sights red for quick target acquisition. I strapped a ammo holder on my right arm that was meant for putting on rifle stocks...for quick reloading. I wear a heavily padded fingerless workout glove when I shoot it to cut down flinching problems. My hunting partner and I each ran over a 1000 rounds through our T/Cs in rain/shine/low light/hot/cold conditions from multiple positions at ranges from 10 to 100yds. I had 3 loads ready for different conditions to pull off my arm band:
- 240 gr hornady XTP w/ 25 gr of IMR4227 and hot primer
- 240 gr hornady Sil w/ 25gr of IMR 4227 and hot primer
- 300 gr hornady XTP w/20 gr of IMR4227 and hot primer

When it came time....I loaded in one of the 300grainers.
A big boar charged out at me from 30 feet away from the thickets. I don't remember aiming or the recoil. The boar dropped with one shot 1/2 inch from it's left eye. The bullet penetrated the brain case...crashed down through the heavy shoulder blade...burst the heart and came out the rear of the animal. The guides had never seen a pistol take down an animal like that. I saw another hunter take 3 body shots (2 through the heart) with a hot loaded 45/70 before he brought down a boar.

I think if you select ammo for your worst opponent condition, practice till it becomes instictive with hitting the target, reacquisition and reloading and lastly take advantage of everything to help handle the can take down just about anything. Get there the quickest with the biggest punch.

When the time came, the ammo selection and practice paid off. If you wanted to penetrate that hot body armor, I would try a 44 mag, 240gr barnes bullet and 20-25 grains of IMR4227 or Win 296...if it didn't penetrate it would sure get someones attention living on the other side of that vest.
Of course, I think Russ was on the right track withjust shoot'm in the head with the .357. (nice accurate round with little kick that has respectable range)

Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 16:33:56 (EDT) 

To Hexa:
The 9mm Silvertip did what it was supposed to but it wasn't enough,that is exactly my point.
5000 new .45s does sound like a bit much,I also wonder what they need so many for.
As I understand it the only FBI approval for 9mms is to use them as a backup not a primary weapon.
My cousin told me of a gunfight in Oakland,California a few years ago.A gangbanger/drug dealer shot a cop 5 times with a 9mm,two shots hit his vest and stopped,one shot hit him just over the top edge of the vest,one hit him just below the bottom edge of the vest and one shot hit him in the thigh.As the cop was falling and squeezing off his Sig Sauer P220 .45 the bad guy turned.The .45 bullet hit him at an upward angle,from behind,just below the waist.The Federal Hydroshock bullet blew out 8 feet of his intestines.(Sorry to get so graphic,I don't know of a nice way to describe that wound).
Three hits from a 9mm and the cop was back at work in two months.After one hit from a .45 the bad guy was nothing but a bad memory.
USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 17:01:30 (EDT) 
Kodiak: Thanks for looking for the magazine re: FBI Miami shootout. I'd be interested in reading it.

Dave: Where can I get a copy of the Intl. Wound Ballistics Assn. "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight" by W. French Anderson, M.D.? Is this a book, or a magazine article? Also, let us know how Mike Lau's book turns out. I saw it at the last gun show 2 weeks ago, I should have bought a copy then.

Gooch: Is the Platt autopsy report from Dade County available to the public?

Scott Freeman from MO: The black brother-in-law that you mention, is he in Kansas City? I learned Service Rifle shooting from a black, retired mustang Marine up there. He was working for Brinks security at the time. If so, small world, huh?

T. Bach Melick <>
New Orleans, LA USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 17:18:53 (EDT) 

Hexa and others:

I once met this woman who "didn't work for any secret U.S. government agency". She never went anywhere (in the USA or "overseas") without her full size 1911 and an extra magazine or three. She was 5 feet 3 inches and weighed about 110 lbs. Don't tell me you can't conceal "Ol Slab Sides" on a small woman's body, I KNOW BETTER! She could also surgically alter the sexual drive of a misquito at twenty paces with the thing.

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
The Sun Finely Came Out in, Magnificent West Virginia USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 17:48:32 (EDT) 

To Scott Freeman: Thanks for the information about your
brother-in-law -- we need more like him in our ranks.

My Savage "custom" .308 rifle has the often-maligned long action, and
as slammed as Savages get, their longer actions allow you to seat
bullets farther out. I'm doing a little "upgrading" at the moment, to
this rifle, and when it's done... well, certain people are going to
get some real surprises.

To Dave: Thanks for the recommendation on Lau's book. I'll get a
copy ASAP. Also, I don't suppose I could get you to send me the
information on the Miami shootout, could I? Write to me offline and
let me know.

To Gooch on sniper matches and publicity: That's why we're here!
This is GOOD news, and I hope eventually the public will realize that
"sniper" are not just "some guy" who feels like taking pot-shots from
a tower. Life after the military? Boy, I hope so! Bad knees?
That's why I signed up as a tank crewman ---- never had the knees for
grunt life. I'll turn 41 next month, four more years to make the
hallowed 20 years, then I'm his-to-ry. Hey, man, it sounds like we
need to get drunk together and do some talking.

To my good friend, "Thin Wind" Torsten: Hey, listen, if the
"wind-o-meter" reads such-and-such at sea level, and reads the same at
1,000 feet above sea level… well, I just have a hard time
comprehending "thin wind." Lay off the liquor pudding, my friend. :-)

To Deputy Dave: Oh, okay! I don't want to start a Guns &
Whammo type of discussion, so of course certain concerns dictate
using a pistol. Bottomline, however, is to be proficient with your
firearm - and have enough ammunition.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 19:18:49 (EDT) 

Here we go the 9mm .45 debate. I have beensitting back, reading the posts and absorbing information. I don't claim to be an expert in the best weapon caliber or which is better. But i'd like to share a bit of information. In April i attended the FBI's firearms Instructor Course in Quantico. While up there at glorious club Fed. I learned alot. In the time i wasn't in classes i was hanging out with there HRT Snipers, and the HRT team. Being that i am a Close Quarters Battle instructor right now i was also on a mission to trade secrets and information on making tactical enties. One of the classes we recieved was on Ballitics, and ballistic wounding. During the class we went down to the ballistic laboratory and recieved a class from the ballistician. While down there we watched him take actual shots into the ballistic jello and explain how they test rounds, ect. I also on my off time spent time down there watching some other testing. On vests and car dooors. Good stuff. But to make this short and to stop rambling on i see a few errors in some of the info about the FBI. Like i said i am never right all the time so don't take offense. A few quick things. The FBI does carry 9mm, they are not for back up use only. They mostely carry sig 228's. They are currently switching over to Glock 23, 24, and 27's. The new agents are being issued them upon graduation of the Academy. All other agents have the choice to switch from sigs to glocks. They are also carring S&W 10mm and .45's. I'm not sure exactly which one's. I could dig it up if anyone really wants to know. I also seen someone talk about knock down power. I think it was like last week. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS KNOCK DOWN POWER!! This statement that fallows, i am taking right out of the FBI manual i have on ballistic wounding. "A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down". However the amount of energy that is delivered into that target will vary upon the type of round being used. As for the 1911's they are being used by the HRT teams in the FBI. And one last comment on caliber of rounds. As they state in there manual and has been proven. If you DO NOT hit a vital organ, central nervous system or major blood vessels you simple will not incapacitate a threat. I can go on about hydrastatic pressure differences between rifle and pistol cartridges, and the difference between the permanent and temporary wound cavitiys. If someone wants me to expand on any of it. But here is the bottom line. With a bigger diamiter round the bigger the permant wound cavity will be. Which means more blood lose, which means quicker death. Also bigger diamiter bullet means the better possibility to hit vital organs ect. causing immediate incapacitation. Remember even with a perfect shot destroying then heart. The average individual will have 6-10 seconds worth of oxygen to fight with. Get a stop watch watch a see what 6 seconds feel like. A life time in a gun fight. There is so much more we can talk about on terminal ballistics (what happens when the bullet enters the human body). I'm gonna stop running my lips for a bit. Hope this info was help full!!!

Sgt. G

Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
CHESAPEAKE, VA USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 19:34:32 (EDT) 

Quick error fix. When talking about hitting lungs organs exetra it should read immediate incapacitation. It will incapacitate. Brain working faster than i can type.

Sgt g.
va USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 19:41:11 (EDT) 

To Jim: No, I agree that being shot at can affect a shooter's prowess. However, before this discussion goes in some direction about police bravery, et cetera, what I was talking about was why didn't any police snipers (or any officer with a rifle), from covered positions, go for head shots? THIS is what I was reflecting on, not on "coolness under fire" or anything of that sort.

To Jeff Cooper (?!!!): Kenny Jarrett, 383 Brown Road, Jackson SC 29831, (803) 471-3616,; H-S Precision is at (605) 341-3006 -- they're in Rapid City, South Dakota.

(And thanks for the "thin wind" commentary -- pretty much how I saw it, too.)

To Bruce: The triggers on most rifles (precision rifles, anyway) pull "back" -- and having a stock with a vertical grip makes it a bit easier to apply a smooth, steady rearward pressure on the trigger. I just don't like most sporter stocks, and I'm especially not overly fond of my Enfield #4 Mk 1's setup -- but it's a hunting rifle and, regardless of the grip, it shoots just fine. In the end, it just comes down to what feels right to you.

To Jon Manley: I think you were confusing a couple of things; I'm a big fan of the .357 Magnum for "up close and personal" work, but the head shots... well, I was talking about the North Hollywood bank robbery. In a quick, close confrontation, I don't think I'd take the time to go for a headshot, I'd go for center-of-mass -- UNLESS, of course, the guy wasn't going down. Then, I'd start concentrating fire elsewhere, likely starting with the guy's head. However, it wouldn't be my initial, opening choice upon first engagement.

To Kodiak: Graphic? Which part? Oh, and I really enjoyed your post, especially about the guy losing eight feet of his intestines... but, um, which part of your post was "so graphic?"

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 20:37:30 (EDT) 

To SGT Gimmellie: Over on the Prodigy Shooting Sports Bulletin Board, Charles Petty just asked for a new term to replace the horrid "stopping power" (or "knockdown power" -- same B.S. term). I don't know that it'll be adopted and make me famous, but I submitted the first thing off the top of my head -- "energy transfer." I think in most articles, this would be a tit-for-tat substitution and a LOT more accurate in terms of what happens.

On a side note: I see that "Mr." Clinton is, by executive order, going to require FFL holders (to include yours truly) to post a sign "on the premises." As quoted by CNN, "Using his executive authority, Clinton also was requiring that all federally licensed gun dealers post a "Youth Handgun Safety Act Notice" on their premises... The notices must state that "misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile violence and fatalities," and that safely storing and securing guns away from children will help stop accidents and save lives." Basically, this means, "duh," that where before my house looked like every other house, NOW I'm going to be telling everybody in my AO that "hey... I'VE GOT GUNS IN MY HOUSE!!!"
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 21:08:42 (EDT) 

WHO STARTED THIS .45 v 9mm thing!!

Perhaps we can begin summing this up?

Pick a weapon in a caliber of 9mm or .45 or whatever (forty something). Get training on it from a good instructor. Practice, practice, practice. Avoid confrontation. Keep a combat mindset (ala Jeff Cooper). And when the opportunity... (oops) the "situation" presents itself move to cover, shoot the mutha center mass till he goes down, then walk over to him and send him to allah!!

Last word. Double taps were popularized by who and for what? The SAS for the Browning Hi-Power! A 9mm pistol. Why? The 9mm needs to try harder. Nuff said.

I think we all need sensitivity lessons.

Sgt G. Where were your covers in that flick? And what kind of rifle was that. Did I spy a fluted barrel? What's going on with the DM program?

Death from a bar!!
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 22:42:22 (EDT) 

To Russ T-
OH! You've got GUNS at your house! What kind and whats your address? I can't stand anopther 5 day waiting period, I only have about 50 guns in my home.
WY USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 22:53:39 (EDT) 
BY The Way-

I have been burning for a couple of days on the "Boss Mans" post of 5 July. Unfortunately I cannot stay quiet and had to make this post. A True American DOES have the right to burn the flag ( absent a law being passed that says otherwise); but a True American would not want to. I for one can tell you that after a few weeks "over the fence", coming back to a compound that is flying our flag is sure comforting. Put a lump in your throat, or am I showing my senility. I still get all puffy when I hear the Marine Corps Hymn.
Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 23:02:54 (EDT) 

Russ: This is part of the President's effort to look busy. While in law school, I spent a lot of time researching Article II of the Constitution and consider myself a student of the Presidency. Any President who relies upon E.O.s to set policy is a weak President; real Presidents sponsor (and get passed) legislation.

[Sniping content:] What is the consensus on the medulla shot? Does this work or not? Some guy in T.S. said it doesn't. SGT G? GOOCH? Rick? Joe R.? Jim Craig? James J.? Rod R.?



Mr. Bain <>
Somewhere, In Court USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 23:19:34 (EDT) 

Mr Bain;

Bad Puuun! "Death from the BAR" ooooh!

Anyway, here goes with the graphics again ( I mean the part about Death from the Bar). I am not, not (this is not a double posting, I am emphasizing) a Forensic Pathologist so i cnat' sday the people I saw shot were hit directly in the medula. BUT, they were hit in the head in a band of about 2" wide about the area between the ear lobes. I have seen shots like that create a lot of "chicken dancing" on the part of the hittee,( and the hittor by way of celebration). I am not so sure it works consistently but this is only opinion.

Shot , Out.
Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 08, 1998 at 23:57:12 (EDT) 

Sgt Gimmellie-Couldn't agree more with you on the 9mm vs. 45 debate.
Not that I want to beat this horse any longer, however I would like to add one thing. Basic physics states that energy is not lost, only transfered. If your round goes through your opponent then you lose the abilty to transfer the energy forming the cavitation and wound channel. Heavier bullets with moderate velocity such as the 45acp and 40S&W (a bit faster) are my favorites. Shot placement I feel has been covered in depth. Bottom line is carry a pistol that you can trust your life in and for Gods sake PRACTICE A LOT !!!

Gimmellie - You say your a CQB instructor. Do you belong to any particular "organizations".

Gooch - Your a Double Devil Dawg.
Brent <>
Shreveport, La USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 00:19:16 (EDT) 

"Thin Wind"
To Jeff Cooper, Russ Taylor:
That makes sense and is what I had expected from a Pilot.
So we agree that it takes more volume of higher altitute air moving to create the same wind reading and effect!
So there is "thin wind" and it just takes more of it to generate the same effect. To visualise it, if I look at smoke in a 5 Mph wind at sea level it will travel a 5Mph.
But at say 8000 feet would it take a 10Mph smoke/air speed to generate the same 5 Mph effect on a wind speed meter set at sea level ??? Then what happens to Mirage in "thin Wind" ??
Or is it just the pudding ? It is made with ´Nauga-Saki´ you know.

Torsten <>
Germany - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 02:40:54 (EDT) 

Mc Millan M-88 .50 BMG !!!
Has anyone of you heard any complaints from the SEAL´s about the weld of the dovetail were the Buttstock attaches?
It seems that the bedding of the receiver in the little front half of the stock is worthless when the energy is transfered via the 90° weld into the rear half of the stock.
I found that the dovetail welded to the receiver is free floating and has no contact with the front part of the stock ! All recoil energy goes directly into the little weld. I think extreme caution should be taken and that those of you that shoot an M88 for pleasure or for buisness should flux the weld and rebed the front part of the stock ASAP !

Fire in the hole !

very wet Germany - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 06:46:24 (EDT) 

Matt: Thanks. You made my point, as usual, better than I could. By the way, on the Platt/Maddox thing. Platt was DEAD on his feet after that first shot. But he fought on for four or so minutes. The FBI said that when they first passed him in the car, he was smiling at them as he loaded his weapon. He had the "proper" mindset and was bend on destruction. He nkew he was going to FIGHT! I can not speak for the agents on site, but it would seem Platt had all but a few of them beat in this one important area. Had they been armed with 10mm, .45, .454 Casull or any other handgun round, the results would likely have been the same. Remember, the guy was DEAD, as in the first shot that hit him was totally fatal, but fought on anyway. All the arguments over various calibers seem silly when faced with this sort of thing. I see lots of anecdotal data on the effectiveness of one pistol round over another. But in the end it all comes down to accuracy, speed, and the mindset of the target.

Russ: You asked why these guys didn't go for headshots. At a guess, they were scared sh*tless, as anyone would be, and were on the defensive. Also, unlike an IPSC or IDPA match, the bad guys were not standing still, in the open waiting to be shot. Platt was dodging, ducking and using cover. And constantly shooting. A head is not an easy thing to hit when moving. Especially when the shooter is already wounded.

Bruce C: You probably want a tactical type stock over a varmint model. You can use the wider fore arm to good advantage as it helps to stabilize the rifle when in a bag or across a support object. A slightly vertical grip will allow better trigger control in prone, as it helps you avoid dragging the side of your finger against the stock (known as dragging wood). While the HS stock does not have a "target" type vertical grip, the wider palm swells achieve the same thing - getting your trigger finger away from the stock.

I totally agree with Sgt. G. The is no such thing as stopping power. This is a term invented by the hunting media for mass consumption and seems to go against common sense. But it has been around for so long that it has become accepted as gospel. Pistol rounds especially do not "stop" a person by over powering them. It is like hitting a 50 pound sack of flower with a light ball peen hammer. Nothing much happens. Trauma to the organs, hydrolic blood loss, and mental shock are the effective agents in play. Not overwelming "shock".

Sorry this is so long folks. I'll close with a statistic that is not based on caliber, or weapon of choise:

"statistics show that in shooting incidents in the US, that if officers were able to connect with their first round fired, they survived 85% of the time. On the other hand, if they missed, they only survived 50% of the time."

This, to me, says it all. PRACTICE!
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 08:15:39 (EDT) 

Ahem-excuse me be before you close the book on stopping power. Have you ever felt the shock of a bullet? If you have, unless the circumstances are unusual you will feel like stopping I assure you! The shock is similiar to a electrical charge or the blow from a large sledge hammer. (I have also felt!) You can loose all muscular control for a short time. It happens believe it.
Let me cite you one instance. I once took a piece of buckshot in side of the head at 75 yards and at an angle of about 25 degrees to the flat portion of my head. It felt like someone had punched me with a sledge hammer and snapped my neck to the extent it was stiff for 2 days. This was a stopper. Of course I may have been able to shoot back but for the moment I couldn't see or move. As to what you can do after the hit. There are no guarantees. But I don't think you can say there is no such thing as stopping power. I have heard a lot of people say they wish they'd had a larger caliber but never anyone said I wish I'd had a smaller one in a dangerous situation. NO the above instance is not the only occasion I've felt a bullet!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 09:10:54 (EDT) 

SCOTT!!! And everyone else! $#^@$^@# it!!! I am NOT talking about the !$^%!@#@# Miami $^!@#$# shooting! I'm talking about the North Hollywood shooting!!! You guys need to read before commenting! Yes, the guys WERE !%@#$%@# in the open, walking the streets, waving hello to little children, et cetera... and I was NOT suggesting that somebody play Clint Eastwood or John Wayne and step out into the street to do battle... I was "strongly wondering" why no one took up a secured location and put a !@%$@#% bullet into the head of these two guys! Oh, and if I wasn't clear here... "I AM 'NOT' TALKING ABOUT THE MIAMI SHOOTING!!!"

(Where's my Prozac???)
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 09:48:42 (EDT) 

Hey guys it takes the thin wind also blows smoke the same as bullets, airplanes, pieces of paper, mirage, or anything else that travels relative to the air and not to the ground. If the wind speed indicator, mirage, or smoke says it is 5mph then it is five. the thin wind, just like regular wind acts on all things equally. it is thinner but you don't notice it because it is thinner on everything.

thanks for the addresses everyone

no I'm not the legendary Jeff Cooper of guns magazine, but I do sometimes write for Mid-South Outdoors on the subject of guns.

Hope I'm Lima Charley on the thin wind now. Good hunting.
Jeff Cooper <>
elvis, tn USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 10:36:33 (EDT) 

In reference to the NORTH HOLLYWOOD shootout, It is my understanding that the incident ended before rifles arrived on scene . The police went to gun stores and took rifles to use against the suspects(because patrol officers did not have rifles) but apparently the officers were not able to get into position in time to put the rifles to use. The suspects were constantly moving and SWAT officers (with rifles) arrived at the latter part of the confrontation. I guess it was just a matter of not being able to get to the right spot in time to put the rifles to use against the suspects.
Mike <>
RI USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 10:57:03 (EDT) 
To Mike: Thank you for your post on the NORTH HOLLYWOOD incident. (I appreciate clarity, don't you?) There's still a continuing thread over on rec.guns about the NORTH HOLLYWOOD shooting, and one particular post has some good points worth noting. You can click on the "post" link here and then return for comments, if any of you are interested. Yes, the police "on the street" didn't have rifles and had to go to B&B Guns to stock up. It's being reported on rec.guns that SWAT arrived a bit late in the game (I can't confirm nor dispute this), so basically a lack of equipment is (partially) being blamed on not getting off some headshots to end this matter in a timely fashion.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 12:07:15 (EDT) 
Gooch- Yes that was a fluted barrel. Rem 700 vssf 308. it wont be stainless to much longer it is getting parkerized next week. As for the DM program. As you know we have a sniper program and the designated marksman program. The DM program was designed for Security Forces. It is a very very basic school 2 weeks they throw some young PFC a m-14 that is so badly maintained and use him in a role to try and replace are scout snipers. The reason is in security forces they can't afford to loose a Marine for 9 weeks. So the DM program was born. The school is really being turned around as we speak. By a hard Core gunny who is a Scout Sniper. The main problem is the weapon system. I see it coming whats wrong with the m-14!!! They don't have the ability to maintain the weapon. Thats the key.

Gooch as for me i am in Security Forces right now working as a CQB instructor at the training Co. in chesapeake. I was with the Fast Platoons with security forces before i became an instructor. But i will soon be going back were i belong back in the bush in a scout sniper platoon.

And finally on the Mendula. This is the only one shot stop, were all body functions will stop immediately. The Mendula is at the tip of the brain stem and spinal cord. If you have ever seen it, it is a blackish grey oval shape. About the size of a golf ball. This kind of leads us back to wound ballistics. But to make it quick if you want a one shot stop you need to destroy the "Medula" or central nervous system. Plan and simply. All others will either incapacitate, or immmediatly incapacitate if you destroy the heart, brain, vital organs or artaries.
Sgt. Gimmellie
chesapeake, va USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 12:30:14 (EDT) 

To Russ: Sorry about the confusion on the .357. I do not have the experience of being shot at while try trying to pick a kill shot on a human. I defer to you.

Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 14:08:04 (EDT) 

TorF: I just bought a Rem 700 PS 300 Win Mag about 3 months ago. I heard the barrel would be good for 2,000 rounds. But, I started right off with Moly treated bullets. I am loading at the end of the Hornady charts. Per my gunsmith(he just got a job with Sig...Gooch if you will be looking for a job soon...I can put you in contact) I did it by the numbers with cleaning after every round till I shot a 100, then switched to cleaning every 10 rounds. One of the guys at my gun club is a Cryogenics Engineer...he offered to cryo treat my rifle for $7/lb if I do a before and after analysis for him. This Cryo treatment is supposed to line up the molecular structure in the barrel and make it super tough. He has done a few of his guns and is pleased with the results. I hoping all these things will prolong barrel life...I'll let you know.

Jeff: on 300 win mag loads. The max in the hornady books is 75.1 grains of RL22. I'm using 75 grains. You can go higher if you are moly treating the bullets, but I have found that if you push the limit too much (the barnes bullet can take the punishment I think) you have recoil approaching an elephant round. I shot a .458 2 weeks ago and my rifle was just shy of the same recoil. The case is identical to the .458...just necked down to handle the .308 cal. The RL22 is burning all the way out my 24" it's pushing all the way. I bought a velcro on kick killer recoil pad that I put over the rifle recoil pad and I wear a Past recoil pad on my shoulder. This eliminated the flinching I first had and I'm a big guy. If you max your rounds you will have to do something or you will be really hurting after a few hours on the range.

I use 1lb of RL22 to load 90-95 rounds....$17/lb up here in NH. (that's why I was asking anyone for a good store a couple memos back) You should also use a Federal magnum 215 rifle primer to light off that much powder. Those barnes bullets are expensive I got 50 (out of Cabella's) and it cost approx $20. I think some of the other guys were talking about Sierra or Hornady FMJBT match bullets in 168 or 190 gr. ....I'm going to experiment with those. Those Barnes are meant for penetration on big tough game. I am planning to use those on an arctic hunt.

gotta go back to work

Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 15:26:35 (EDT) 

To Jon: There's nothing to "defer" to me about -- I have been lucky enough, thus far, to avoid being involved in a gunfight. I'm just going on my training. Both in armor training and small arms training, I've been taught to go for "center-of-mass." If anything, "I" defer to those who have gone in harm's way before me, who were fortunate enough to survive and had the wisdom to impart their knowledge on the rest of us. Should the day come, though, that I'm using deadly force -- I'll rely on my training. Then, if the threat isn't going down, I'll do as I said... concentrate my fire on other (hopefully vulnerable) areas.

To all: Interesting article by Layne Simpson in this month's Handloader (#194) on the importance of using eye protection when target shooting AND HUNTING! It's a good reminder if you can find the magazine and read the article, but -- take nothing for granted, and use eye protection when shooting. Always.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 15:30:51 (EDT) 

To Scott Freeman:
Get yor brother-in law in this group,it would be good to hear from him.
To Scott(no last name):
The fact that Platt was DEAD on his feet and still carried out a gunfight for a few minutes is the reason I don't like 9mms.
Sgt.Gimmilie:Whether a bad guy is shot in the heart or not if his nervous system recieves sufficient shock he is going down.The .45 has the ability,much more so,than the 9mm to quickly down the target,even though the wound may be non-lethal.
If someone threw a small rock very hard and hit you in the head it would hurt like hell but if they threw a brick at you and hit you in the head even though the brick would be going much slower it would hurt much more,probably causing unconcousness or even death.Stopping power?Hmmmm.

USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 16:17:59 (EDT) 

SGT G: Nice pic in SOF but I have to agree with Gooch, where were your covers? My late Father was a full COL in the Corps and he would have "been up one side and down the other" if he'd have seen you!

Gooch: OK, let me have it! I was rasied as a Marine, that's why I went Army, been there, done that! Me brother pissed him off even worse, he went Navy as a Fighter pilot! I feel I can talk about all branches without a problem, (you should have been at some of our family reunions when I pointed out what was on all of Dad's checks and his id card)!! :-)

To whoever posted about stopping when hit, I AGREE!! I have been shot by a 7.62X39 and I stopped, RIGHT THEN!! (Guess I'm not mean enough)!!

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 16:40:41 (EDT) 

About this 9mm vs 45acp bull. There has been so much written about the subject and I'm here to add my 1 1/2 cents. It all depends on what you are comfortable with. There are a myriad of people out there who like both and although I'm no expert with either, I am very partial to my Sig 220, nut i also own a 228 and a 229 with both the 357 sign barrel and the 40 S&W barrel (thats a great combo also).

And what about the 357 Sig. I haven't heard very many pro or cons about this caliber.

To any optical experts out there. Since you have convinced me not to purchase the Springfield, how about the Leopold 4.5 x 15 x 50 tactical long range, side focus with a 30 mm tube. Sounds pretty good to me.

Jim Craig: I'll call you this weekend.

Jeff Cooper: Thanks for your advice on the Redfield scope.

Gooch: If they say you are an EVIL man, how would they know unless they were evil also. Think about it. I think you should be nominated for the priesthood.

Beer's gettin cold here in steamy Ohio.

Later you Mugs

Al Ostapowicz <>
homesweethome, O-o-o-ohio USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 19:11:11 (EDT) 

One point here, fellas: Platt coulda done the same thing with a .45 hit in the same area. There IS no "magic bullet" when it comes to handguns. They're ALL underpowered. Period. You want a guaranteed immediate stop? A hit in the brain box with a .22 mag is better than a hit in the lungs with a .45, to put him down NOW. Shot placement is everything, if that's your goal. If you have a lesser goal, good modern ammo performs about the same...with .357 being slightly better'n most.

Matt <>
GA USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 21:15:58 (EDT) 

LEXINGTON, TENNESSEE USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 21:40:49 (EDT) 
Okay guys. Terminal ballistics according to Gooch. Watch your front sight and shoot him until he is dead.

MSgt Craig. Wish I could've been in your fire team.

Medula shots. I've never shot anybody. Studied this for about 17 years. This is what I have found in my studies. A HIGH VELOCITY round with reasonable mass (.223 and up) that enters the cranium will drop the dude. A shot to the brain stem will stop any impulses to the body. MOST OF THE TIME.

Pistol round to the head. Nothing is for sure. Bullet can bounce off the skull.

This stuff makes for good conversation but it is an endless one.

Sgt G. What is the Gunny's name taking over the DM's?
Have you seen the M21 set up that the Navy EOD guys use? At MCSF, Pac we borrowed some when we started our DM program. They were hard guns. Heavy barrel, MacMillian stock, Bausch and Lomb Tactical scopes with tack welded Brookfield mounts. I tried to convince the powers that be at MSCF that the M40A1 was the way to go but we had this gun nut Major in S-3 who wanted to do the M14 thing. I brought out some instructors from Quantico (Sgt Riddle and SSgt Morris) to demo the M40A1 and shoot against the M14 based weapons. Of course the M40A1 out shot the M14, the troops liked the M40A1 the best, so they went the M14 route! They used the match M14's we had for the rifle team and mounted 6x Leupold scopes on some piece of shit scope mount. I tried!

Jon - Please Email me any contacts you may have.

Rick - Get to work on that FTX!!

Gooch has left the building.

Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 21:44:06 (EDT) 

To Matt:
It's true that there are no magic bullets but some definately
put their targets down faster than others.
The Cook County IL Sheriffs police academy instructs people to go for a head shot only when that's the only target visible.The head is actually not a good target,it is smaller than the torso and because it is hard and rounded it often deflects handgun bullets.With my own eyes I saw a gangbanger that was shot on the extreme far right side of the forehead and there was an exit wound at the back of the skull.The idiot gangbanger was walking around describing the car that the shooters were in and was mad because we wouldn't let him smoke while waiting for the ambulance.My partner and I were amazed that this punk could take a bullet completely through the skull and be in such good condition. A few hours later we found out from the hospital that the bullet penetrated the scalp and hit the skull at a glancing angle.It traveled along,trapped between the skull and the scalp to the back of his head where it exited making it appear that the shot went straight through his skull.One lucky gangbanger huh?
Center mass is a better target,the bullets never bounce off.
Some people doubt the existance of stopping power.Ask the people who hunt Elephant, Rhino and Cape Buffalo if they believe in such a thing as stopping power.When a raging several ton animal is coming at you like a runaway train and will be on top of you in about two seconds the ability to stop him NOW is the most important thing in your life.You don't see these people using small diameter, armor piercing ammo.They use .458s, .Weatherby .460 Mags, 600 Nitro Express etc.
I may be old fashioned but I'll continue to believe in stopping power.
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 21:59:32 (EDT) 
Folks, if you have not ordered a T-shirt by now, please do not send any more checks. The shirts are sold out and will not be made available least for now. Those of you still waiting will get yours in a few weeks. Most have shipped, but the most recent orders still need to be filled.

Please, everyone, do not send any more checks. I will only have to return them. Those of you wishing to donate to the Hathcock family may still do so as all your efforts were quite appreciated by the family. Send all donations to Carlos III. The address is provoded elsewhere on this site.

Thanks again to all who supported out effort to give a worthy man a hand!
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 22:05:37 (EDT) 

I knew THAT post would draw a response!

Center mass IS the better target under stress, no question, because you're more likely to HIT it. HOWEVER, if the guy is in the right frame of mind, few if any pistol bullets will put him down, NOW, with one center mass shot. Depends on attitude, what he is on, lots of things. It's amazing what a human being can accomplish through sheer willpower. Just because your heart is blown out doesn't mean you aren't physically capable of functioning. There's still enough oxygen in the body to let it do a lot of nasty things to someone. So although center mass is the most likely HIT, eventually resulting in incapacitation, it is NOT the most efffective way to stop a guy, RIGHT NOW. All you snipers out there, speak up! YOU know where you have to shoot someone for a true, one-shot, right now kinda stop!

As for the big bores, YES, you have a point....HOWEVER, you'll also notice that in a charge, those guys ALL aim where? Head or spinal column! And if you've read Peter H. Captstick's stuff (I was a fanatic as a kid) you'll remember that he explains favoring big bore solids on heavy game because they PENETRATE! On light-skinned, dangerous game like leopards, he wasn't as picky, unless it was a charge, in which case he preferred a 12 gauge with SSG or OO buck over anything.

By the way, the most famous elephant hunter of all time, WDM Bell, favored a .303 Lee-Enfield. He was just a good enough shot that he could kill elephants with that gun, every time. So size ain't everything! SHOT PLACEMENT!!

If you want him down right now, you have to shoot him in the head. Otherwise, shoot center mass and keep shooting until the threat is over. If you have a choice, do this with a rifle/shotgun. If you must use a pistol, expect to have to shoot several times, no matter what it is.
Matt <>
GA USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 22:21:49 (EDT) 

For the record:

(1) I carry a .45 when I carry, unless it's in the service of Uncle Sam, in which case I carry what I'm told to carry (and don't like it one bit, either).

(2) If I have to shoot someone with either pistol, I will aim center mass and keep shooting until he is down, unconscious, drained of all blood, and preferably skinned and smoked.

(3) If confronted with multiple targets, I will try to put at least one round in each of them, then go back and start doubling up until they are all in the condition referred to in (2) above.

(4) Given the opportunity, I will, instead of confronting the target with my underpowered little toy, bring the target(s) to the attention of a Marine with an M16, SAW or M240G, and say, "hose him down."

(5) I have played devil's advocate long enough. I carry a .45 because I like it. If someone else likes a 9mm, that's fine with me...I don't see a big difference. If I had to pick a partner for a shootout, I'd take someone who was a great shot under stress, armed with a .380, over a piss poor shot armed with an LAR Grizzly in .45 Win Mag.

Left 20, add 40, record as target, end of mission, OUT!
Matt <>
USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 22:46:13 (EDT) 

Bach: The book is only US$5.00 from IWBA, PO Box 701, El Segundo, CA 90245. I don't know if it's a general offering to the public or not. That's the same address for Wound Ballistics Review subscriptions too...

Russell: Send you the info on the shootout??? Get the book that I just listed for Bach, and then get a copy of "Ayoob Files: The Book" from which reprints his two very thorough articles on the matter. Then you'll have the same info I do. Is that what you were looking for? If not lemme know...

Big Ed: Glad we agreed we're on the same page re. the vests. Also I forgot to mention I have shot an old M69 vest with a .45ACP ball round from a GI M1911A1, and the vest stopped it. The bullet was recovered inside the vest's shell, it had almost no deformation. Big (diameter) & slow is not the answer against body armor!

I'm now done with 8 chapters of Lau's book, and I think it really has something for everyone. My only minor complaint is that it needs another round of proofreading! But the chapter on log books alone is worth the price... I'll do a "wannabe's review" of it when I'm done, but not here on the Roster as I'm sure the SCC would hunt me down for posting something that long!

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 22:54:20 (EDT) 

Gooch and the boys;
Have to say I've never been shot, but I've been "shocked," cause I'm an industrial electrician. Trust me the shot vs. shocked analogy would seem to be pretty close, especially if you,ve been "bit" by 277v or 480v and I've seen the that stuff do the same thing to people that a well placed round does in the "boiler room" of game. Could get up, but I shure did'nt want to!
Question: McMillan stocks and glass bedding or H.S. stocks and bedding block? Some say bedding blocks need to be glassed any way cause barreled action has imperfections. M24 systems bedded? M40A1's probably are cause they're MAC'S. Again, be gentle, I'm still new at this!
S. Freeman <>
God's Country, Mo USA - Thursday, July 09, 1998 at 23:42:33 (EDT) 
Hi there!
Has anyone had any experience with silencers for 308, and is it ok to use regular ammo, someone told me that subsonic ammunition is the only kind used in calibers that big? I would think that silenced shots would aid a sniper, specially in urban surroundings, or similar situations.
The disscussion among my friends got quite heated for a while:)By the way most are more knowledgeble bout guns than I am,
any comments would be helpful.

straight shooting!
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Egilsst., Iceland - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 00:07:54 (EDT) 

Thin wind:
Torsten is not off his rocker on this subject. There is such a thing and it does blow the bullet off course less than a heavy wind. Think of a bullet as a boat trying to cross a river which is traveling downstream at 10 m.p.h. Now if that river is made of water the boat ends up at X distance from its intended landing point. But if the river is made of concentrated Nahga piss the boat ends up MUCH further downstream. Of course the difference between thin+heavy air is not as great as the difference between between water and nahga piss and therefore the measured difference actually amounts to doodley-squat.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 00:12:53 (EDT) 
OK, now my two cents worth on medula shots. I currently work as a trauma nurse in one of Louisianas' two Level 1 Trauma Centers. We see gunshots day-in and day-out. I have personally seen someone shot with a 9mm MP-5 in the head survive( this was in the old days as a medic with a tactical team). This is not the norm however. A high velocity rifle round to the head should render the target unconscious immediately. Whether the person can continue any purposful motor function,other than flopping around like a chicken, remains a question to me. I feel that the cavitation, temporary, and permanent wound cavities would disrupt the central nervous system instantanious even if you didn't hit the medula itself. Brain herniation and vascular disruption would make quick work of the target. If anyone can clarify, please do so.
Brent <>
Shreveport, La USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 00:19:16 (EDT) 
Hey Gooch: You're still an evil man!!!!!! Dissin' my M21, GRRRRRRRRRRRR, well you are a Murine so I guess that's worth something:-)

SCC: Sorry for the double post, as you know I'M OLD!!!!!

To All: I have shot people, with an M16, M21, .45 & M1 Carbine and they all work.....One of the 16s was a shot above me and I hit the guy in the left leg on an upward slant and the round came out through his right shoulder!!! His day was pretty well "shot".....It all boils down to this: EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT!!!!!! Sometimes the guy will drop, sometimes not, as the Gooch says, KEEP FIRING until he stops moving......

Out here

Big Ed <>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 01:30:16 (EDT) 

Dear Guns & Whammo subscribers: We, of Guns & Whammo, appreciate your interest in the 9mm vs. .45 ACP debate. We were beginning to worry we'd heard the last of this particular discussion -- but PRAISE GOD!!! On a "SNIPER" website, of all places, where we would have thought the discussion would primarily be about custom gunsmithing, long-range precision shooting, shot-placement in tactically challenging situations, and so forth... well, imagine my surprise, and that of the rest of the staff, when we discovered that the MAIN discussion, God bless you everyone, is over "which is better, the 9mm or the .45 ACP -- or the .357 Magnum... or the...."

Certainly, you've restored our faith in humanity. Please, PLEASE, you "sniper people," keep this discussion going FOREVER!!! Speaking for all of us here at Guns & Whammo, we NEVER tire of this discussion -- and it's obvious that NONE OF YOU EVER TIRE OF IT EITHER! We hope you kind folks NEVER return to discussions about sniper operations and equipment.

Very Respectfully,
Pierre A. Bellum
Senior Editor
Guns & Whammo Magazine
Russell E. Taylor` <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 01:30:28 (EDT) 

I must admit to some slight lack of relevancy on this post so I will keep it short. I have spent some time in Africa and wiht my associates, we have hunted the wiley Cape Buffalo, Elephant and Rhino. Believe the post that said you want to STOP them. I have been within 15 yd of a very angry Buff and 16 yd from a pissed off Elephant. Not being very smart, I and my associates chose to use original roundball muzzleloaders. These guns were rifled with the Forsyth concept which was developed in 1836 and allowed for the use of large charges with no build up in pressure. One gets fast delivery of a very large ball with quite long range for a roundball. I shot a 1700 Pd Eland at near 200 yd and it knocked him of his feet and he stayed down. The 6 bore rifle ( read .92 cal ) with an 1100 gr.lead roundball; and 250 gr of Goex 2f powder not only stopped the Elephant but turned it about 60 degrees to the side. THAT is stopping power. We might have gotten good penetration with a 7mm AP but it wouldn't stop them on the spot. It takes transfer of force.
Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 01:45:37 (EDT) 
Mr. Bellum:

Do you have anything on squib loads in an upcoming issue? My father says Viagra helps, though some of the old bench rest shooters with whom I have spoken recommend a vigorous rubbing down of the barrel, just before competition. If I try the latter, should I use lubricant? And if so, which brand?

R. U. Keating <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 02:09:12 (EDT) 

Im done with the "thin wind stuff" ! We can do some more field testing next time we meet.

Camo !
What kind of face paint do you guy´s use ? Sticks, cream ?
Do you stick to the old Indian or the Conan style. Or the darken the high spots and lighten the lower regions ?
After we were not allowed to cam up our faces in the German military for the last 5 or so years because the cam stick we had was not "skin tested" by a dermatologist, we now have,´Taadaaa´, a new camo cream that makes you skin nice and soft, you Brutes!
And I can order my men to cam up again ! We did anyway, but I could make anyone do it that did´nt want to.
So what is the best brand ? With or without Bug Juice? Does the Avon lady carry it ?


Torsten <>
very wet, and green Germany - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 02:21:05 (EDT) 

Mr Keating: Enough Viagra and your barrel will not need lube! As the young lad said to the Doctor, after Dad took Viagra Mom's dead, sister's pregnant, my butt's sore and Dad is sitting naked on the fireplace saying, "here Kitty, Kitty".........

Shot out
Imasoft <>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 06:24:39 (EDT) 

Torsten: I've always gone with lighten low and darken high. In my day we used cammo sticks with bug juice to assist. The new cammo compacts, (the NSN escapes me), work very well and they even have a mirror in the lid so us girls can get our faces correct!!!!!!

Gooch, Bain or ?: What's the best, (read cheepest) source of the Match King 175gr bullets?? I know it's probably covered somewhere here but what's the best load for my old muzzle loading M21?????

Mr Bellum: Thanks so much for keeping the subject on the 45 vs 9mm issue. It's so near and dear to my heart.....Why to think some people talk about Sniping and equipment, I'm shocked, shocked........

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 06:39:19 (EDT) 

Head Shots:
In an earlier life I was a paramedic with the Baltimore City Fire Department, I have therefore seen a lot of folks that have been bent, folded spindeled, mutilated, cut, stabbed and shot. On one ocasion I went to the scene of an attempted murder-suiside. I say attempted because only the suiside was succesful. The intended victum had been shot in the back of the head with a small caliber handgun, her only complaint was a headache and she sat up and talked with me all the way to the shock-trama center. The perp, using the same weapon had blown the top of his head off and was real dead. The bullet in the brain of the victum loged between the right and left lobes and the doctors decided to leave it there unless complications developed.
My point is "Keep Shooting Until The FIGHT Is Out Of Your Attacker" no matter if you use center of mass or head shots. DO NOT get into the mind set that any one shot will get the job done!

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
relaxing for the day in, West Virginia USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 07:13:30 (EDT) 

All this talk about getting the bad guys, entrails hanging out, Bits and pieces of brain matter hanging out, bad guys shot in the left leg and going out of the right shoulder. I just love stories with a happy ending!!!

Bless everyone who is was or will be taking care of us stupid civilians out there

Ooops, wife is calling again. I think its garbage day!


Al Ostapowicz <>
South of Lake Erie, Ohio USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 07:38:49 (EDT) 

Ok, Sir Russ has spoken. Let's knock off the entertaining, but potentially endless debate on 9v45v357...But..hee hee...comparing Rifle hits to pistol is not relevant ot the conversation. Lets all leave it with Gooch's sage comment about shooting till bad guy goes down to stay. This is my philosophy also and makes the most sense. One officer I know likes to spread the load by walking bullets from center mass, hips, pelvis, and head if he can get it. Litterally breaks the charging druggy down. Hey, what ever works!

Now, on to sniping related material! Someone asked about the availability of 175 grain MKs. Folks, if you buy these things from Cabellas or similiar outlets, you are paying too much. Check out Creedmore Sports, Champoins Choice, Sparten supply, Natchez, and other high power related outlets. You must bulk buy (500 rounds) but you can get the cost down to a fairly good price. Avoid Midway, Gander Mountain, Cabellas, Redhead, Bass Pro and such. They are good sources for some things, but not bulk components.
Scott <>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 08:00:40 (EDT) 

Hey! What's better? 9mm or .45?

I have a question about whether such a thing as knockdown power exists. SGT G stated that the FBI's position on this is that since every action has an equal and opposite reaction, a bullet cannot knock down it's human target without simultaneously knocking down it's shooter [in so many words]. Therefore, knock down power cannot exist. Well, if I walk over to you and shove you in the chest with my open hand reasonably hard and you tip over, isn't that knock down power? It wouldn't necessarily cause me to fall over. Can't a bullet transfer (a la Russ) more energy than I can generate and then transfer with my hand? I'll bet if someone shot me, especially on a long axis like from the left shoulder through the right shoulder, I would be knocked off of my feet. Maybe I'm just a wuss.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 09:22:44 (EDT) 

Paul the FBI has brains it hasn't even used yet! Indeed there is an opposite and equal reaction but time is involved and expanding gasses as well as the fact that the object (the gun in hand) is at rest and inertia is making it tend to stay there the expanding gasses start the bullet moving slowly and first the then speeding up as the expansion occurs. There are forces other than straight behind such as up and down and sideways that are contained within the chamber. It's difficult at first but your getting the idea now? If the gun and bullet were allowed to both gain momenteum there would be a different effect on both the shooter and bullet. try firing a .44 magnum loose in your hand or better still don't.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 10:59:01 (EDT) 
A few years ago, Sierra Bullets had kind of an 'outlet store' at their factory in Sedalia where you could buy 'rejects' for practice. You bought them by the pound. The 2200's (168-gr. HPBT matchkings) I bought were pretty cheap and shot just fine. Does anyone know if Sierra still does this?

T. Bach Melick <>
New Orleans, LA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 11:00:00 (EDT) 

To Jim Craig:
Thanks for the post on African hunting,that's exactly the point I was trying to get across.
To Matt:I agree that hitting someone with any handgun is not the best way to end a fight but you must use what you have with you,which in most cases will be a handgun. A heavy, large caliber bullet hitting center mass is no guarentee of an instant end to the fight but you're much more likely to get one than with a small bullet.
I too read Capstick.They could shoot an elephant in the head with any small caliber AP ammo but they use the giant calibers to give him a sledgehammer blow to the brain to stop him right NOW.
I seriously doubt that W.D.Bell shot charging elephant with his .303. Saying that shot placement is everything is easy when shooting at a still target that you can take your time to line up perfecly and if you don't get the shot you want you wait.You don't have this luxury in a charge,or a gunfight.
As for head shots in a gunfight.If you try for a small target like the head when your under great stress,your adrenallin is pumping at max pressure,your heart is racing and you don't have time to line up your shot it's entirely possible to miss your target.Even if you do connect the bullet may glance off unless your lucky enough to hit a flat spot like the forehead.
To Russ Taylor: Sorry about all the handgun talk.I can't help myself,as long as one person believes that the 9mm is as good as the .45 or .357 I feel that my work is not finished.This is my last 9mm/.45 message,I promise.
I hope I didn't get anyone mad with my messages,I was trying to have fun in this debate.
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 11:42:15 (EDT) 
To; S.Freeman

Both the McMillan and the H&S are good stocks you can't
go wronge with either one. I've used both but have tended to stay with the H&S because of the aluminum bedding block. I've found that if you dont pillar bed the McMillan stocks after a period of time you can start to "Crush" the action area. I still bed the H&S stocks with steel devcon it makes them a better shooter in my experience. My experence has also been that most of the actions that come from the factory are in a bind in the stock. You can check this by loosening the front action screw while holding light pressure on the front part of the stock and bbl. if its bound up you will feel the gun start to lift up out of the stock. A little work with a dremell tool will usually take care of this problem and your gun will shoot better, hope this helps.
Pat Murphy <>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 12:21:15 (EDT) 

FYI, the CMP has recently been publishing regular sitreps on the tornado damage and the upcoming 1998 National Matches on their site at

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 12:37:03 (EDT) 

Kodiak: Nope! Nobody is mad! Unless of course we include those who keep reminding us this site dedicated to Long range stuff. So, nuff said. Pistol discussion over. Snipers need them for back up and more than likely will be forced to carry what policy dictates.

Back to long range items of interest! Is anyone here going to attend the October sniper competition at SMTC? Also, there is talk of an Autauga sponsored sniper event at Ft. Benning, details yet unknown. It is great to see tactical shooting taking off as a "sport" of sorts. While competition is not reality, it is a great way to practice the skill set and keep up to speed.
Scott <>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 12:46:56 (EDT) 

"Death in the Silent Places," Ch 5: .303 vs. elephant.
You just gotta be really good.

Re: the concept of knockdown power. I have already worn out my welcome lately. Let me just say that there's a lot of bad science floatin' 'round here, posted by those who say it exists. It doesn't. End of story. Period. Newton says so, and he's usually right (except when it comes to subatomic stuff). E-mail me if you want to discuss further.

Matt <>
GA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 16:51:34 (EDT) 

I love your page keep up the good work
Christopher Hamburg <JarheadUSMC@Hotmail.Com>
Elgin, Illinois USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 18:13:57 (EDT) 
Matt you want science? Go to the bowling alley and throw a golf ball down the alley. Then get one of the big black ones in the rack and throw or roll it down there. That's knock down power sport!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 18:26:22 (EDT) 
Knock Down?
I'm not sure I want to use a hand held weapon that throws a bowling ball as a projectile, but that would make for real Knock-Down Power!!

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
Warm and willing in , West Virginia USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 18:44:12 (EDT) 

Interesting stuff on the medulla shot. As I mentioned previously, a respected member of the sniper community recently stated publicly in print that the effect of the medulla shot was a myth. A person in whom I put great faith and trust was totally nonplussed at this statement. I couldn't believe what I read either and wondered if anybody else believed that the medulla shot was not as effective as touted. From what I read here, no one else subscribes to this line of thinking (that the medulla shot doesn't work).

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 20:42:25 (EDT) 

I can see it now. I'll be out of the net for the next three weeks and I will come back and you yahoos will be debating the best kind of cammy paint!

Camo compac! Gvt Issue! Fred Bear face cream!!! Yada Yada.

I'll bet if we all got together in a bar we couldn't decide on what beer to buy! A bunch of grumpy old men!

I like camo compac from Hunters specialty in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. They also make bow flage spray paint and camo tape. Sorry don't have a address. Mirror doubles as a signal mirror etc.

Gotta go pack for the Canada trip! Hope I can get online up there. Hope to hook up with Canjumper.

We're gonna spank'em for the good ole US of A!.

Now where did I put those chicken bones?

Gooch out!
Gooch <kdgooch>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 20:58:49 (EDT)


We still can use more shooters for the Tactical Marksman Match and Carlos Hathcock Charity II shoot in Wyoming. You have all been on a roll with the .45 vs 9mm discussion. This match uses both handgun and tactical rifle. Come on out and test your handgun and rifle as well as put your personal skills to the task. Can you engage multiple pistol targets quickly then take your position and solve for the long shot then make it? Can you hit an egg at 500 yds. Come on out and see. Check the Match sitrep on the link in this site.
J Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 21:18:40 (EDT) 

Alright,I know you're there,
Sorry to interject some tecno-junk into these thought provoking topics(all of which are discussed so eloquently by the foremost experts, YOU GUYS!), but I have more stupid questions.
RE: Torque settings for M700 actions.
Remington factory settings are around 65#, but I've heard this is excessive and that they should be about 56-57#(its an inertia thing). Would this also differ in, say, McMillan stocks oppossed to H-S stocks? What about rings and bases(MKIV's)? Care for a little debate?
Still green after all these eons,
Scott F.
Scott F. <>
Wasthatit?, Mo USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 21:30:37 (EDT) 
Man, I havn't been able to post for awhile and look at all the fun I've missed!!!!

Torsten - I've sent several Emails to you with them being returned as not delivered after three days! Hope todays got to you. To let you know, I talked to Steve today and he will get you the manuals you asked about sometime ago and I also mentioned some of the others. He'll be in touch. On Camo, light low, dark high, use the paste not the cream, the stick truely is a pain in the butt even with bug juice. On the .50 Cal, try RAD industries .50, with rotary 5 round mag. This sucker SHOOTS, and recoil is squat. Back blast will rock you though! I've shot it off hand and it is quite tame, as is their 14.5mm.

Brent, Sgt Gimmellie, and all on the mythical Medulla shot. I've done and seen. If the hit is right the guy drops straight down like a dropped bag. This is seldom seen because the medulla is so small and is resistant to shock of the temp cavity. If the guy is "Knocked flying" then it was not a medulla shot due to the autonamic nervous system that jerks your hand away from heat. The jerk is nerve to muscle without brain input. The pain is brain input. As far as being knocked a** over tea kettle, normal bullets DON'T do that. Watch the tape or demonstration given by Dick Davis of Second Chance. He takes hits from an SKS at point blank while standing on one foot. I've been hit with 7.62x39 and didn't even know it until the fight was over with. Then again I was almost knocked out of a chopper from tiny pieces of shrapnel. Difference was muscle response due to the hit and noise. You jerk away, and this causes the perceived knocked over the table effect. This should cause some responses!!

Haraldur - Sub sonic on a sniper rifle will actually allow a trained individual to estimate your location better than a full load. The sub sonic buzzes from shooter to target and this gives a line of flight. The round could not of been fired more than 200 meters away, thus location is rapidly figured. We, at one time until the safety anal retentives stopped it, trained our guys by shooting at them with everything from a supressed .50 to .22 at ranges from 1000 meters to 100 meters. They were to tell us the cal., gun, and location of the shot. Suppressed full loads were impossible to tell, all other rounds were easy to tell after a period of train up.

Jon Manley - Don't plan on getting 2000 rounds out of your 300 Win Mag unless you don't care about flyers. Almost all comp shooters change at 600 to 800 and we were planning on 2000 based on military use of torso shots, and not presision shots.

S. Freeman - M24s are not bedded, they use only the bedding block. We still achieve sub moa at 200. We must be able to disassemble our weapons in the field and bedding won't allow that.

Sorry this is so long, hadn't had my SC fix in a while. Gooch, FTX done finally! Best of Luck at Canada shoot even if you don't need it. Honestly, you're not an evil man.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:17:42 (EDT) 

To Al : Re: Leupold 4.5-14x50 LRT scope. Actual power is 4.5-13.7. I’ve got one and used it at the Hathcock Charity match at Storm Mountain. I Love It. I got it with mil-dot reticles. The side focus is really convenient, and your hands/arms are kept down low when adjusting. It made the farthest target at the match (I say 700 yd.+) look very close. The cross hairs are fine (Not Too Fine) and do not cover a large part of the target area. Adjustment range is very good. Optics to me are quite good and clear. I miss chambered a round AFTER we zeroed our weapons at the match, and had to BANG the butt on the ground several times to release the cartridge (.338 WinMag). It still hit the 700+ target on the first shot, though 3.5 in. low. I was even using EAW quick disconnect rings (made up very tight). So I give it an A.O.K. The REAL military snipers out there will probably like the fixed power scopes with smaller objective lenses. Different horses for different courses. I’m a hunter with interest in sniping & long range shooting so you know from whence I come.

To Scott: I’ve already made my reservations at Econo Lodge for the November competition and requested info from Rod Ryan. Also, I’ve actually begun to get into shape. That stalk really zapped me. I’m following a training route similar to that you & Mr. Bain did for your Counter Sniper Course at Storm Mountain Training Center. I hope it helps. It can’t hurt !! BTW, what color is the grass that time of year? I’m still working on my ghillie........ Also, I rcvd. my 6 t-shirts.

To All: RE: Knockdown power. Read Ed Matunas’ writings in Big Game Cartridges and Rifles (from Lyman Corp) He does a very good job at putting velocity, caliber, weight, etc., into a usable perspective. The writing applies to hunting animals of different weights at varying ranges, and the calculations work for man-sized game. Ed very much stresses SHOT PLACEMENT regardless of bullet weight, etc.

Butch <>
N'awlins, LA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:31:43 (EDT) 

I've been following all this discussion regarding medulla shots, incapacitation shots, etc.

While I have never shot anyone, in the medulla or any other part of the anatomy, and don't plan to, I have, however shot more than a few deer in the head, with a variety of different firearms, including a Danny Wesson 15-2 .357, a .54 caliber flintlock shooting patched roundballs, and my little ole Remington 788 carbine in .308 Win., and the effect has been the same every time: The legs just fold up under the deer while it goes straight down, dead before it hits the ground. The maximum range on any of these shots has been about 75 yards.

Regarding "incapacitation" shots, I have also made quite a few shots on the point of the deer's shoulder, at longer ranges, to make sure they didn't run anywhere. I learned a hard lesson as a teenager about the so-called "heart shot". That beautiful heart-shot buck covered 150 yards in an eye blink, running right past another hunter who plugged him and claimed him. That deer was dead after I shot him, he just didn't know it.
Pennsylvania's crowded deer seasons leave little room out there for long tracking adventures. Put 'em down where they stand and you can be pretty sure you'll get to tag the animal you shot! The point of the shoulder shot dings the spine, and down they go.

I don't even know if a deer HAS a medulla, but I imagine the effect of a head shot on a deer is pretty much the same as one on a person.

Is this info relevant to this site? Maybe not, but hey, now I'm hunting the deer on pipelines at 600-800 yards. Not near as many tagged,(none yet, actually) but a ton of fun and a valuable lesson in patience and judgement.
 Scott <>
pa USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:34:11 (EDT) 


Great theory, but remember that a bowling ball weighs a helluva lot more'n a bowling pin....kinda hard to achieve that sort of ratio between projectile energy and target mass with a small arm vs. a man. Artillery round? OK. Small arm? No. Only if you catch him off balance, in which case he effectively weighs much less...kinda like if a boxer slips and falls. Not a knockdown, right? Same principle applies.

Matt <>
GA USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:51:10 (EDT) 

S. Freeman - Alright already!!! The 65 inch pound torque on the M24 receiver and scope is due to the standardization. This is required when you have a bunch of M24s in the system and wnat to buy a torque wrench that a GI can't set to some odd torque rating. Thus we use a fixed torque wrench of 65 inch pounds for both. You need to torque and shoot until you get the best performance from your weapon. WARNING!!! We use steel trigger guard/floor plate assemblies. The aluminum ones won't take the pressure of torquing for long. Use lighter torque loads if using aluminum.

On the medulla shot, there is much controversy over this shot due to autononamous nerve function that is independant of the brain. The shot must shock the system so bad as to shut down that function as well. This requires a dead on hit and a target that isn't mind set to continue. There is a great video of a medulla shot in California. Perp dropped straight down with a 308 round in the head. Another California tape shows a perp shooting hostages with half a brain, literally.

Mr. Bain - Email me your sources name, if you and he doesn't mind. I think I know who you are talking about. If so, he and I have had some great "discussions" on some of these matters.

Have fun guys, I still haven't gotten a good fix of SC yet!!!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 22:55:11 (EDT) 

Nate here,
I just got off of serving on a jury in which a guy shot someone breaking into his car at 4 in the morning with a .22 and killed him. (Not guilty, in case you were wondering) A forensic pathologist gave his testimony at trial.
He was shot in the back with a .22 round. It was out of a High Standard semi-auto pistol, range was ???......I guess depending on who you talk to it was from a few yards to 25 yards. Anyways, I got to examine some rounds. It appeared to be a Federal round, with a very shallow hollowpoint cavity in the tip of the bullet. It was copper - coated.
The victim was hit in the back---imagine looking at him from behind, the bullet went in at lung level just barely off the center line of the spine to his right side. It then traveled slightly upwards and exited right by his right nipple. Along the way it hit his lung and went through it. He ran for about 2 and a half blocks and managed to say a few words. At the hospital they removed his lung but I believe he expired later that day. -------Just thought that I would share some of that 1st hand knowledge with you, do with it as you will.
On stopping power ( I know, I know) -----There was this "gun" videotape that my dad had, I think it was called "Deadly Effects" or something like that. They fired pistol rounds of differing velocities into water jugs at close range, with a few varieties for each shell...I think it was .22---.380---.357---and .44 Magnum. They used several varieties of each shell, with Glaser safety slugs making the biggest splashes. They also fired various rifle rounds at auto windsheild glass, and fired pistol and rifle rounds at older model car doors. They did a demonstration to show that extremely light brush is able to deflect a .50 round.
I think the best part was when they had someone from Second Chance body armor come in to do a demonstration. He put on a vest under his T-shirt, put some magazines under it so he wouldn't turn his chest into hamburger meat, and shot himself at muzzle contact range with a .44 magnum. He didn't fall down. In a similiar demonstration, another man put on a very heavy "flak" type jacket designed to stop rifle rounds. At a range of about 6 feet, standing on one leg, he took a .308 out of an FN-FAL without losing his balance, and said that it hardly felt worse than a punch.----------Just thought I'd let you guys know, do with the info as you will.-------Also watch the tape "Wound Ballistics: What Bullets do to Bodies" for some Dr. Flackler type of wound presentations. At times gory, but good stuff.
On a final note, I believe that the North Hollywood thing could have been solved with one cop with an AR-15 in his trunk and about 2 rounds. End of story. Sorry for the long post, been awhile since I got my SC fix.
Good shooting and Illigitemum non carborundum,
Nate Dog <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Friday, July 10, 1998 at 23:56:38 (EDT) 

Dang it's hard to keep my promise to Russ Taylor about not
speaking of the 9mm/.45 debate.I'll bite my tongue and read the messages from the people who claim that there is no such thing as stopping power and that big bullets don't have any advantages over little bullets.
If anyone is looking for Federal Match Brass,Huntington has it in .223, .308, .30-06 & .300 Win Mag. The prices aren't listed in the ad so I'm not sure if they are any good.
They also sell .45 brass(hint..hint),and 9mm brass (boo) for all those who prefer little bullets.
I'm really trying Russ.
Huntingtons website is:
Their phone number is: 530-534-1210
USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 01:37:39 (EDT) 
I am new to the Sniper Country but am very impressed with your effort, organization, and depth of attention. Please keep up your fine work. I shoot highpower, having brought my M1-A back to Manila after being deployed in the DC/ Northern VA area. Luckily, I was able to completely build it up at Quantico as a service rifle competition gun. Its been glassed with the McMillan heavy NM stock and heavy Douglas barrel, and all the other fittings and needed modifications. Since we don't have an equivalent of an NRA national match course, I set it up with an A.R.M.S. M-21 mount, rings, and scope. I couldn't get the Leupold scope I wanted for it, so I brought back the Shepherd P2 scope and have been using it. So far, I've had no problems with it. I was wondering if anyone of you have had any experience with this scope and would have some time to share some with me. I would be very grateful for any input you and your readers would be willing to convey. Thank you very much for your kind attention. You all look like a nice, tight group. Keep up the fine work!
Robert T. Feliciano <>
Makati, Philippines - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 03:41:56 (EDT) 
We are in process pf complete a comprehensive reloading program for the hand loaders out there and I was wondering if there was any one out there who would be will willing to analyze a FREE beta copy. The only request is that you do not pass it around.
It is Windows 95 based programs with about 100 different calibers (we are still working on several pistol calibers), but I think anyone here will find it quite interesting. It is simple to use and packed with good info.

If anyone is interested in a free copy of WinRELOADER 2.0
please contact me at my e-mail address, include your name and address and we'll get one out to you ASAP.

Thanks in advance!

Al Ostapowicz <>
south of Lake Erie, Ohio USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 08:03:55 (EDT) 

Has anyone out there used the Eagle AIII pack with a Liquidator, and how does it ‘ride’?

Also, has anyone packed the above simultaneously with the (DRGBG) Eagle Drag Bag ?

Rusty Rossey with Autauga (if you are listening): you guys sell this stuff; how do you attach and carry both? I’m looking at buying all 3 but want to know if the combination will work together. And Rusty, thanks for the bore guide.

Butch <>
N'awlins, LA USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 10:36:31 (EDT) 

Rick: Damn, you're tough, a 7.62 hit and didn't even know it???? I got one in the left arm up high and it put me down for a couple until I could regain my "mind over pain" and again return fire on Mr Charles and DAMN DID IT HURT...

Scott: Could you please hit send just one more time????

Gooch: Have fun and shoot well....I answered your email and I'm looking forward to more when you get back on the net.....

Mr Bain: Please check email concerning loads.....Thanks..

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 12:11:58 (EDT) 

Hello All,
Big John here. I'm new to this board, so hopefully you will forgive me if I breach any protocalls. RE: Medulla shot. First, you have to remember that this is a small target and that it must be hit solid in order for it to work. The Nazi's perferfected this by dropping thier victim to thier knees, bending their head forward, placing the muzzel of the pistol in the "soft spot" just at the base of the skull & at the top of the backbone, then firing. I remember seeing a WWII film once where an SS trooper did this to a prisoner at the top a large pit. You could clearly see by the way that he fell that he was INSTANTLY killed. The medulla shot works. The medulla (also called the brain stem) is the "swithboard" for the brain. It's purpose is to recieve electro impulses from the various
areas of the brain and then transmit them down the spinal cord. By causing mass trama to the medula ( by means of a 168 gr. HPBT ) It can not send these "orders" to the various parts of the body. Therefor the body parts have no "orders" to tell them what to do. Not even unclear impulses, that would cause the body to thrash about violently.

To hit the medulla from a frontal shot it not the mythical "between the eyes". The shot is actulaly a few inches lower. In the area above the top lip but below the nose. Right in to the "snot ditch". The bullet will crash through the roots of the front teeth, into the mouth, into the rear wall of the mouth (all of which to this point is soft) through the hole in the base of the skull (which basicly connects your head to the rest of your body) strait into the medulla. If the shot is alligned strait, this WILL cause instant death.

I know a man who attempted to kill himself with a 9mm. He put the muzzel of the pistol against his temple and fired. After someone found him, they shipped him off to the hospital and put Hupty Dupty back together again. He now has a large dent in his skull & talks like he is retarted, but he is alive with most of his motor functions. Proof positive that that a simple head shot does not instant death. I guess that this can be added to the 9mm vs .45 ACP debate.

Big John <>
Short Creek, Ohio USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 13:05:01 (EDT) 

Big John - You are quite right about the location of the shot and why many don't believe the shot exists. Most LEAs train with the 'T' style targets that will piss some perps off if hit there. This is especially true if the LEA type is firing expanding rounds. They do an energy dump on the skull and penetraion is irrattic or non existant to the point of riding the skull and exiting the back of the head. Best way to catch the brain stem is to imagine a walnut inside of a big ball and the walnut is exactly in the center of the ball. Do not look to land marks because the perp will seldom present a landmark that leads to the brain stem. As I had stated earlier though, there is a nervous function that works without brain input and that is the quick retraction of muscle from pain input, such as hand to stove. The original shot was to prevent a hostage taker, with a gun being held to the hostage's head head, from firing the weapon in reflex to the shot. There have been several instances of head shots causeing that jerk in the body and thusly a questioning of the brain stem shot. Placement is everything!

Big Ed - It is not a matter of being a tough guy, as being so blasted scared and focused on the situation. This causes the shock and numbness of the impact to be lower on the awareness scale of the other sensory input from a hord of buttheads trying their best to seriously inpede your ability to grow older. I am not alone in this having happened. I have talked to a number of guys that have been shot and not known it until after the fire fight. To be absolutely honest, I registered, somewhere in my fog shrouded brain, that something had hit me. However, I assumed that it was a rock, dirt clod or something that only impacted, not penetrated. You get used to things bouncing off of you when the world has turned to crap in an instant.

Nate - The individual you are talking about is Richard Davis, President and founder of Second Chance. He does that on a regular basis. I also have a tape of him taking SKS hits in the chest while standing on one foot, and the British have a tape of a guy walking fforward with their vest on while absorbing impacts on the chest. Water Jug hits prove only that slow and big causes water to move out of the way much more forcefully than small and fast. THAT is the only thing it proves. A black powder .44-70 REALLY moves the water!!!

Well, once again I got long winded! Russ, sorry, I'll try to keep my ramblings under control. It had just been so long since I could respond that I was having withdrawal pains!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 14:06:51 (EDT) 

Alright you guys I know you're out there,
Do'nt mean to interject any techno-junk into into the great moral issues of our time, but I've got a couple of stupid questions to ask(If you wanna know the answers ya gotta go to the experts and you gents are the BEST!)
RE: Torque settings on M700 actions. I know they're about 65# from the factory, but that seems too excessive so a setting of 56-57# fits the bill(it's that inertia thing).
Also, would these torque settings vary between McMillan stocks and H-S stocks(bedding blocks vs. fiberglass/pillars). Lastly, should rings/bases for MKIV's also fall into these torque settings? Again, be gentle.
Still green after all these eons,
Scott F.
Scott F. <>
Wasthatit?, MO USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 22:05:02 (EDT) 
Please accept my apoligies for the multiple posts of 10,July
This stupid(who's the stupid one?) computer went haywire and I did'nt realize I came off sounding like my ex-wife! I hear
bolts slamming so I'll leave.
Good Luck and shoot straight!
Scott F.
Scott F. <>
Double Post, MO USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 22:27:15 (EDT) 
I will ditto what Rick said about mind set, focus and distraction. We were about to be shot off a hot LZ in Laos. Our Air cover left station and we were catching s---. The slick I was in took rounds in the hydraulics and was non-op. We were being hit by small arms, heavy MG and mortar fire. My APL was hit and a gook was coming out of the bush right at him. I felt lots of vibration and concussions around me. I felt a pressure but thought nothing of it at the time. I brought my M-3 to bear on the gook headed for my APL and it wouldn't fire. I ran to the slope and picked him up and beat him into the ground. When the shooting died down, I felt searing pain and noted I was hit. I had taken shrapnel hits in the arm, face and chest. The M-3, a very reliable smg, failed to fire because it was empty and I was too focused on my APL to notice. As has been said on this list before, don't rely on one hit to have a man down. You never know the circumstances. Shoot unitl they are destroyed if you can.
Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Saturday, July 11, 1998 at 22:51:59 (EDT) 
Well these arguments are healthy. But if you do decide to settle it with a gun fight. I hope you bring your 9's!
I need the edge!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 00:20:20 (EDT) 
An incredible combat story from a documentary book called "Tragedy in the Karel, Finland"

Gunnar Andersen was a Norwegian Waffen SS ski patrol soldier. In jan. 44 he was transferred to a german unit to teach them the art of skiing. There were no regular frontline in the polar part of Finland only fortified strongpoints on both sides and lots of patroling. German planes had spotted som russian movements in the short time of daylight. A 10 man patrol was set up and Gunnar was point man as usual due to his skiingabilities in fresh snow. After a 4 hour nervewreckng patrol in moonlight and -39degC spotting for russians without seeing any the patrol returned to the strongpoint wich were manned by ca. 100 germans. Gunnar fell asleep at once in one of the wooden bunkers. Only 30 min. later Gunnar woke from gunfire. He only manged to get his MP40 with one mag with him. Gunnars bunker was in the oposite side from were the russians were attacing with a large force. Some of the other wooden bunkers were already burning, lighting up the polar night. Gunnar found a perfect fireingposition against the second wave of russians comimg from the surrounding woods. In the light from the fires Gunnar started taking them down. With only one mag in his MP40 he let one russian into his trench and shot him capturing a PPSh and two full mags. Continiuing taking out russians until almost out of ammo again he repeated the trenchtrick and captured more ammo and kept on shooting. A german officer then shouted "We are getting support, we are saved". It was a trick but the russians panicked and bailed out. After the battle it was discovered that Gunnar singlehandedly held one of the fireingsectors and he was credited with 74 kills. Not bad with 9mm and 7.63mm subguns. Gunnar got the Iron Cross. Indeed all the 29 remaining germans and a few norwegians still alive got it. The russians lost 196 killed. They took the wounded with them.

The knowlege of winterwarfare has not been lost. Waffen SS veterans has been used by the postwar Norwegian army as instructors.

When the border was moved after the war these old frontlines were left almost untouched in the Soviet Union until 1990 when civilians and foreigners got access. Very interesting for the amateur historian.
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 07:58:29 (EDT) 

Hey, everyone, wanna debate the merits of blondes vs. brunettes? Anyone wanna talk politics? Should Bush have stopped Schwarzkopf when he did? Who was the greatest general of the Civil War, and was it REALLY about states' rights, or slavery?! Hehehehehe.....

Sorry to be the troublemaker. Hate to back down from an argument, even if it's half-hearted!
Matt <>
GA USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 09:03:40 (EDT) 

I was shot in the head before I fully developed and I'm still the same person today.

Hey Scott F., try the double posting technique: you just hit the submit bar twice.

I know a guy in California who was withdrawing money from an ATM when 4 punks attempted to rob him. One immediately shot him in the front right portion of the skull a little above the eye. The bullet (.380 Auto yes, but a 9mm nonetheless) changed direction and travelled underneath his skin almost the entire circumference of his head. He was so angry that he put two of them in the hospital using his fists. The other two ran away. He's o.k. but is more careful around ATMs now. I told him that he's lucky he wasn't shot with a 230 grain .45 bullet because they tend to keep going where they were pointed.
Big Paul J. Headlee <bigpheadlee@bignetworksplus.bignet>
Big Ogden, Big KS USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 09:11:06 (EDT) 

Interesting story but...... If they had just been off a 10 man , 4hour patrol, where did the Russians come from? How good was the patrolling technique? With a 100 man outpost, where were their forward security LP's. What happened to their on-call Arty fires and FPF fires? If the Norwiegan took at nearly half of the Russians by himself, what kind of fire discipline did they have in the rest of the FPF lines? BRAVO for the Norwiegan but boy what poor basic infantry skills for the Germans.
J Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 11:55:09 (EDT) 
Speaking of "whimp" rounds,
while I was in FL in the 80´s a lokal transsexual hooker was found dead under a bridge. Cause of death was a headshot with a .25. The bullet traveld through the medulla and was lodged in his/her upper gum.
The same night a gentlemen was reported by a lokal hospital with a gunshot wound to his penis. They found bone fragments in his pekker too !
I guess if that .25 didnt zip through the brainstem he would have been without his member.

Germany - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 12:47:05 (EDT) 

To Big Paul:
Several years ago one of my friends showed me a magazine article about a woman who came home one day early from a trip and caught her husband in bed with another woman.The husband and his girlfreind were busy and didn't here the wife come in.The wife went and got her husbands S&W 59 (9mm),came back into the bedroom and shot him three times,twice in the chest and once in the neck.The husband jumped out of bed,grabbed a wine bottle and hit his wife in the head three times killing her.
Three hits from a 9mm and the husband lived.
Three hits from a wine bottle and the wife died.
USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 14:16:39 (EDT) 
Common Matt: Everybody knows that Blondes have more stopping power! As far as knock down! That's best left to redheads in my experience.
Remind me to be on my best behavior if I ever go to Norway!
Not a bad idea... hum!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 15:47:23 (EDT) 
Does anyone have experience loading subsonic ammo? I am looking specifically for information regarding the 30.06.
Michael Hrabarchuk <>
Swan River, Manitoba Canada - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 16:31:24 (EDT) 
Torsten and Kodiak: There's an interesting article in Frank Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" vol 3 or 4. It's about a kid running in front of a BB gun at the wrong moment. The BB punctured his pericardium and he died. How's that for an efficient transfer of energy?
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 17:38:46 (EDT) 
Jim - thats a good story about the firefight in Laos. My hats off to ya, your a tough mutha !!

Torsten - your story about the .25 sets the trend for "bonehead" blunders.

Well since were in a reflective mood. I had to pick an old man up one night during an ambulance rotation for severe headaches. We took the man to the ER and left. Two hours later we were contacted by the ER to carry the man home. It turns out that the Doctor was going to order an MRI on the man but took an X-ray first. They found a bullet in the mans rear cranial space. When questioned the man stated that he had tried to kill himself ten years earlier with a 9mm Luger. He put the barrel to his inner left eye and pulled the trigger. Nothing happened except for minor bleeding at the entrance wound. The man didn't even have a visual problem. He was so scared that he told no one and the site healed perfectly. Isn't that weird? Please note that I'm not trying to rehash the 9mm vs 45ACP debates. I thought it was a fitting story for disclosure.

Sorry so long. Stay low and stay safe.

Brent <>
Shreveport, La USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 18:04:03 (EDT) 

To J.Craig:

The russians were probably already preparing to attack the stongpoint. The partol had missed the russians on their way in. The russians followed. The strongpoint was very well defended with minefields, MG-bunkers, etc. The russian usually attacked with overwhelming forces. This force numbered probably 1000-1500. They had light arty. on sleds and mortars.

These strongpoints were on their own. The next one was 2-3km away. Reserves even longer away. No arty. within range. Strategic defence was done in depth, counterattacking in the flanks. The finns were experts at this with kill/loss-ratios never seen before or sience by antagonists on the same technical level.

Wintherwarfare is something different. In extreme cold you don't have any far forward LP's. You freeze to death. Watches are usually 10-20min. Skipatroling is difficult. I know. I've trained on it extensively. The standard drill is to spot followers with an ambush on a downhill. Trouble is Finland is flat. Performing "fishhook"-tracks in the dark is very difficult. The pace of the patrol must sometimes be fast to cover a large area, 40-50km in one night carrieng all your equipment with you. As a sniper I think a boltrifle is a handicap. I preferred an accurate G3 with a scope in QD-mounts with a realistic 600m range in these conditions. You win more than you loose. Spotting is done with a pair of 10X40 Zeiss binocs. No room for regular spottingscopes or dragbags.

In extreme cold you need "sloppy" weapons like AK47's or M98's. Tight weapons, like MG34 (M16 ?), needs to have all lubricants removed by boiling. Fireing them completely dry. I've had misfires with Rem 700 SA in -36degC. The spring/plunger-ejector didn't work either. Boiling the bolt did the trick. G3's and MG42/MG3's work well with Mobil 1 synthetic engineoil. Just get someone else to clean them after they've been fired!

Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 18:16:54 (EDT) 


Several weeks ago I posted some observations on my experiences with FMJ ball dipped in automotive moly grease as an el-cheapo version of moly coating. I had unexplained high shots out the top. I also found it was tough to find the main point of impact with only two sighters.

Today I shot 600, 900 and 1000 yds with clean well-wiped FMJ ball in a bore that had been pre-greased with about 10 passes of a patch well soaked with automotive moly grease. Better results. After two foulers and two sighters I settled in for as good groups as I'm capable of shooting, and as good as that rifle. However, the group opened up at 1000 yds. Probably because of powder fouling. I wiped the chamber after each range.

So - bullets dipped in moly grease - not consistent. Bore lubricated with moly grease - much more consistent, except push a clean patch through the bore and reapply lubricant. Always clean the chamber.

Terry Warner <>
Canada - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 21:32:29 (EDT) 

A new visitor from South Dakota asked about what sort of gear he needed besides a rifle and scope.

Use the checklists of what you would need for a long long day of still hunting deer to help focus your attention. (Not that I am trying to tell any professionals their job...)

The next place to look is Maj John Plaster's book, The Ultimate Sniper. He has a lot of very useful and obviously learned by experience equipment tips.

Finally, a small bore coach of mine always told us that skill would beat equipment in the hands of someone who knows what to do. Don't go whole hog buying gear - go all out practicing. As the posting about wild boar hunting with a handgun illustrates.

Terry Warner <>
Canada - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 22:22:36 (EDT) 

Went to the range today to try out my SR-25M that just got back for having Blackstar do the barrel and JP do the trigger. I tried reproducing (by handloading) the Fed Gold Medal match in 168 using Fed GM cases, GM primers, Moly'ed 168hpbt match bullet and using 43.5 grains IMR4895 powder. Blew the primers clean out of the case into oblivian. We took the same rounds and put them in a Rem 700 VSS next to me and there was no problem. Why would that be ?
I used 43.5 grains cause they used 42 grains in the LC match stuff in military cases (1.5 grains more in civilian cases to equal pressure right) Im going back tomorrow with some lighter loads. PS(I had some factory Fed GM 168 and it shot fine)
Very curious,
Robb @ UNL
NE USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 22:39:22 (EDT) 
To Robb:
You have made so many mistakes with your reloading that you are lucky to be alive! Have you ever read a reloading manual? Every one I have ever read tells you to start low on the powder charges and work your way up. Good Advice!!!
First off you cant duplicate factory ammo. The powder that the ammo companys use is not the exact same stuff that is
for sale commercially. I have two pounds of surplus 4895 that was salvaged from lake city match ammo. It is much slower burning powder than imr 4895.
It is not a good idea to use match primers in reloads for the M1A. They are too soft in the cups and will show signs of pressure sooner than a hard primer like a WW. The match primers are also more sensitive in detonation and in an M1A
could cause slamfires.
It is also not a good idea to use anything but military brass for the M1A Military brass is heavier and harder and can take a little more abuse with regard to the chambering
and cycling of the action.
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 23:21:12 (EDT) 
Robb, Your problem (my guess)might be that the chamber of the black star is indeed quite a bit smaller than the Remington. I had the same experience with a douglas in .223
The chamber is just slightly smaller but when you near max pressure a little space is big pressure.The chamber throat is also suspect. A little free bore (remingtons are trying to avoid pressure by making everything larger (liability). Doesn't compute to thinking people but....Start low and go up is good but the difference is so dramatic it will catch you unaware. I don't know how factory loads avoid it...but they seem to somehow. Power curve I guess.
Gang if you grease your bullets the pressure will go down and the velocity will too as you know. The moly coated bullets seem to work but outside of barrel life I don't have the foggiest idea what good it will do??? Get out the chrony.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 23:44:09 (EDT)  
To Steve in OH,
What M1A ?? (I have one but it takes 40.5 grains) Im using a Stoner this time..
Well I have read the reloading manuals and they said that commercial cases take 1.5 grains more than military in .308 and I went off the report here on Sniper Country on what the Military match ammo is made of (42 grains of IMR 4895)
Like I said the same exact ammo fired perfectly fine out of a Remington 700. Also every source I have seen has recomended upping the powder load for moly'd bullets too
just a slight disclaimer..
Robb @ UNL
NE USA - Sunday, July 12, 1998 at 23:53:59 (EDT) 
i was just reading you counter sniper articles. while gaurding a firing range i was witness to a group of three people who were testing various caliber rifles. They showed me that after they fired a round they could track it from its point of begining to end (interstingly they said it was going to be used to track incomeing missles) anyway it tracke a 5.56 round no prob i am sure it could be used a a counter sniper device, OUT
USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 00:26:39 (EDT) 

I really don't like trips to the woodshed in public, but sometimes it's necesary:

DID YOU READ OUR "IN-COUNTRY BRIEFING?" Let me remind you what the briefing states:

"Further, Sniper Country makes no claims or representations with respect to any handloading information contained on this page. Any person using handloading information obtained from this page must remember that each gun/load combination will result in different pressures and any handloader must work up from a minimum load to any load listed on this web site, keeping in mind the safety of the handloader and those around him."

You are dammed lucky to be in possession of your eye, the fingers of your hand, and the hand itself! Never, and I repeat, never load the maximum! If you had injured yourself, your lawyer would have come after us and then I would have had to have gone to NE in the Summer (something I really would not enjoy)to get the case thrown out of court!

We aren't rich guys and we don't do this for money. We do this to help L.E. and military shooters with their profession, as well as to enlighten civilians about a very difficult and demanding way of life. In return, we expect that our guests/visitors/friends read the rules and use common sense. Just because an engineer from ARDEC tells us that the M852 or M118 is loaded with 42 gr. of IMR 4895, and just because the engineering drawings and technical reports we have say the same thing, that doesn't mean you, I, or anyone else should load cartridges with that much powder, at least not initially and without a chronograph. Why? Because these things blow up!!! That's why Remington has such long throats. Be thankful that the company built the bolt gun you have this way. And remember, WE DID NOT TELL YOU TO DO THIS, NOR DID WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO DO SO!

I apologize, Robb, for the public chastisement. I know that for every person who comes forward, as you have, to tell his tale of woe, there are many, many more out there who are thinking of doing the same thing or who have done the same thing. Thank you for having the guts to admit your mistake on the Roster. Please, be careful and don't hurt yourself. We don't want to lose you or any of our other friends.


Mr. Bain <>
Anyplace, but state court in NE, USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 00:30:17 (EDT) 

Great site. My compliments to all contributers. I was very moved by what everyone has done for "White Feather"

Semper FI
Timothy Gardiner <>
FWB, FL USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 01:01:53 (EDT) 

Please also remember that you are comparing apples and oranges when you shoot a bolt action and a semi/auto. There is always that possibility or popping primers faster in a semi mode than a bolt action simply because of the blow-back and extraction of the fired case, as compared to the case that would be pancaked and cratered in a bolt action rifle.

Bob Feliciano & Scott F: Speaking of H/S/ precision stocks and McMillan. Many say McMillian stocks are the way to go. I have built numerous sniper quality .308 and .223 and 300 Win Mags on HS Precision stocks and am very happy with the results. Some of my customers do insist on McMillan and then the waiting period starts. I have been waiting for a A-3 from McMillan for one of my customers for over 13 weeks. When I called up last week and asked them whe I could expect it, they PROMISED it by the end of last week. I'm still waiting! So much for customer service and corporate creditibility. Nuff said.

Waitin' in Ohio

Al Ostapowicz <>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 01:14:51 (EDT) 


Well actually you kinda did. I followed the info on this site. Based on lots and lots of other info I have found to be quite useful here ( how do you think I ended up with the SR-25M), I chose to use that reload info too. Im not defending myself here but I am being painfully honest. I dont like admitting I did this. You may not have intended for me to be encouraged by this information but in my heart, I really was. Under normal circumstances I do work up from minimum loads. For reasons to lengthy to discuss here I loaded 300 rounds of the illfated stuff. For the main reason that I trusted the information I found here. Its that simple. (tell youre lawyer to go back to bed, Im emptying the other 298 rounds I have left)
Secondly I am the kinda guy who isnt afraid to take responsiblility for his own actions, so I wouldnt sue anyone over this kinda thing. But I think youre right that Im not the only one to have pulled this kinda bonehead maneuver.
BTW If you think EVERYONE reads that legal mumbo jumbo disclaimer at the beginning I feel youre sorely deluding yourself. Do you fully read the software license agreement everytime you install some software ? Dont fib now! I am sure youre statement is written to get you out of any LEGAL responsiblilty though and If I were you I'd have that statement too.

The Painful truth is: WAS encouraged by the info I found here whether I was should have been or not. And I acted on it. Plain and Simple.

I didnt start this whole thread to get to this previous statement, or looking for someone to blame. I learned the hard-way about re-load info on the net, I just wanted to know why it worked fine in one gun and not the other. but since the rest was mentioned I responded in-kind.....

I hope someone else who would have considered doing this kind of a thing "in a pinch", will pick up from my mistake that I have shared with the public at large here on Duty Roster. FOr those readers who might think to themselves "Its dip-s@@tz like you who make the legal mumbo jumbo necessary" I say : "welcome to the reality of accessible infopickion on the net by the general public".


PS. MR Bain: That was a well deserved trip to the woodshed, I just hope a lot of others saw you take me there so they dont do what I did too.

NE USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 01:25:12 (EDT) 

Robb: Just a small ppost script. Also remember that pressures in every rifle can vary. Even the distance of your bullet to the closeness of the rifling can cause a variety of pressures, whether it is a new barrel or one that has been fired numerous times and the also the length of the barrel or whether the chamber was reamed to regular specs or tight neck .340 specs. Please be careful!!!!!!!! Id hate to see that bolt implanted between your eyes. Start with low power loads and build from there. If you are using the 168 grain Matchking and IMR 4895 Thats IMR in the pretty pink can, start out at 36.5 and build from there. Try not to exceed 40.5 grains of IMR 4895 in your loads.

Keep your eye on the scale,

Al Ostapowicz <>
Indians Country, Ohio USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 01:26:17 (EDT) 

Does anyone of you know a good FMJ bullet in .308 at around 168 Grains? Or any decent 147-150 gn ? We have new new polymer bullet traps here on the Bundeswehr ranges and are no longer allowed to shoot "hollowpoint" Match 168 Sierra´s. We all know it is BS, but the paperpushers say so and the do empty the backstop and are just waiting to kick the reserves out.

Torsten <>
Germany - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 04:19:37 (EDT) 

To Butch : Re: Eagle pack, The company has a link from here @ SC !!! Check it out !! As for getting Rusty on here...lotsa luck...if it doesn't have a LOT of pictures for instruction , then Rusty has a problem !! **GRIN**
To Torsten : I think Lapua makes a 172 gr. that is non hollowpoint. Good Luck !!
Someone call me a Dustoff !! After Rusty hears about this I may need one !!
Will <>
In the Deep South, USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 04:49:50 (EDT) 
To Torsten, re. FMJ-matchbullets.

Try Lapua LockBase 150gr and 170gr.

These bullets are VLD's with very high BC's

I've used the 150gr to replace the 147gr bullet in standard NATO ammo with very good results for military matches. Exellent in G3's.

The 170gr LockBase can be loaded to over 2700fps in a .308 with VV N550. Accuracy is exellent in Steyr, Sauer and H&K hammerforged barrels. BC is higher than 175gr SMK.
Oslo, Norway - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 06:32:45 (EDT) 


Help me. You mentioned that maybe you have ballistic tables of M852.
I have to finish my term work. Can I feed them Fed .308, 168 Gr BTHP Match tables instead of M852?
Sounds silly but what can I do.

If you intend to answer can't you e-mail to me directly. There is so many info around in Duty Roster. It's hard to find answers.

from Estonia

Laur <>
Tallinn, Estonia - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 07:56:40 (EDT) 

Dear Tor F.

At times it is very difficult for us in the United States to get "Vit" powder. Does anyone here have a good avenue to get the Vit powder and the Lapua bullets.

Al Ostapowicz <>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 09:45:03 (EDT) 

Bain & Robb: a good reminder to us all!
Before I started handloading myself, I asked a friend to load some 308 125gr bullets with 40,6 gr norma 200(a load that I had tryed before with good results on geese at long ranges)and what I got back was a load of 46,0 gr,,,,
needless to say I was a bit surprized when I fired the first shot.
If I remember correctly the max for 125gr bullet is around 41gr with norma 200
And this is the reason i started to handload myself.
I have been told that the only reason I´m intact is that I have a strong rifle,otherwise my eye would be missing, or worse.
"So keep an eye on the scale:)))"
and straight shooting!!
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Egilsst., Iceland - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 10:50:28 (EDT) 

I read your post about my request for Ideas on gear for the Wyoming match and I could'nt agree more, but I know this is suppose to be a pretty demanding course and it would be nice not to lug along a lot of stuff I dont need. Both Gooch and Jim Craig were kind enough to help me out in this department and I greatly appreciated it and I'am looking forward to meeeting both at the match in august. As for practice, I hear you buddy, my wife thinks I'am having an affair with someone at the range but once again knowing what you'll be shooting at helps alot too.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 12:34:50 (EDT) 

Take heed: I am so BLOODY SICK of all the 9mm/.45/.357 crap, that hence forth and most rikky tik, I'm pulling off the ENTIRE POST of anybody that says another !#%@#% thing about 9mm/.45/.357 -- "to include" clever, witty, "he'll never notice THIS" posts! I don't care if it's a GOOD, VALID, HIGHLY OUTSTANDING POINT/QUESTION/COMMENT!!! Don't mention it in apologetic posts, "I'm sorry for talking about the..." posts, just NOTHING!!!

Oh, yeah... I'm just a weeeeeeeeeee bit "miffed" at this turning into such BEATEN TO DEATH orations! It'd be different if it was "new" -- BUT IT'S NOT NEW!!! JESUS H. CHRIST, THIS STUFF HAS BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH IN EVERY !#%@#!@#% GUN RAG ON THE MARKET!!! Hey, if you've got a 9mm/.45/.357 comment to make... DO IT BY E-MAIL TO THE GUY IT CONCERNS!!! To quote Steve McQueen as Tom Horn in the movie by the same name... "this is my last word on this matter."

On reloading: Legally, Robb, you've been addressed. However, being someone who does more handloading than most people, ONE -- you are a "human" being, capable of determining your own destiny (no one here "brainwashed" you into doing anything), TWO -- Clint McKee pulled his bulletin board system because someone posted some load data that got someone hurt... I do NOT want to do the same thing here because of you!... THREE -- you ALWAYS, ALWAYS, "ALWAYS" WORK UP LOADS IN ACCORDANCE WITH PUBLISHED DATA!!! When you think you've got the time under your belt that you feel you can just "jump in," then that's fine -- but be advised YOU did it, no one else.

Hey, I'm working up... I said, "WORKING UP"... loads for my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum, using Hodgdon's H50BMG powder. Don't know if you've noticed, Robb, but THERE'S NO DATA FOR THIS!!! However... I put in COUNTLESS HOURS of newsgroups research, sending E-mails, pouring through my existing manuals (I've got them all), talking to the Hodgdon guys on the phone -- at length -- and talking to the "big boys" who play with .50 BMGs and are used to using VERY slow-burning powders! And after MONTHS of this... I started working up loads. I wear eye protection, ALWAYS, when I prime cases and when I shoot ammunition. I broke in the barrel with 117 grains of H50BMG with uncoated 300-grain Sierra bullets (again, no load data is published for this combination), and now I'll be using moly-coated bullets with 120, 121, 122, and 123 grains of powder. Nobody "suggested, encouraged, or coerced" me into this project nor into using these loads, but after years of this stuff I "think" (stress, "THINK") I know what I'm doing... and I "STILL" go through the "work up loads" process!!!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 15:19:55 (EDT)

Finally I get around to what I intended to do with the Emporium from the start.  Quite a number of people got mail messages from me today to the effect that I will be removing their posts from the Emporium, and placing some of them here in the Roster.  So here they are.  I put the original post and, where applicable, the relevant replies.  The humourous replies I didn't bring across, not because we don't want humour, but merely because its too much darn work.  Because of this last fact everything that would have been archived was deleted anyway, without me first looking to see whether it was worth posting here.  Recent comments to old posts were also ignored.  Thus, if you think you made comments that should be here but are not, please put them here, AND NOT BACK IN THE EMPORIUM!


Posted by andrew on June 10, 1998 at 22:35:18:

 I would like a more detailed answer as to why the armed forces have chosen Leupold tactical scopes. My personal experience is with 1" leupolds and I have found them sorely lacking in light-gathering ability. Are the 30mm's as good as the european scopes in this respect? Are they far superior to the 1" tubes? Why not use a larger objective lens? Is it considered too bulky to be practical? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by EShack on June 15, 1998 at 22:47:14:

wondering what's the value of Sig 550 sniper? how many of them were made? any one shot one? is it really worth the money? and how does it compare to PSG1?
thanks in advance for any inputs


Posted by Gen. George Mann on June 16, 1998 at 22:28:18:

This is one hell of a page you boys have set up here, keep up the good work soldier!


Posted by Bryan on June 17, 1998 at 21:49:41:

Anyone out there who know's where I can get a Parker-Hale m-82 would be greatly appreciated.

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by Bill Brown on June 21, 1998 at 20:52:42:

 I am looking for a sniper scope and I'm not crazy about Leupold,I have seen the Shepherd scopes advertised in Shotgun News for years.Does anyone have experience with them? I'd like to know what I'm getting before I shell out $500 for it. I know that it has a lifetime warranty and that sounds good but it won't help much if I'm getting shot at or relying on the scope to work. Any responses are appreciated
(e-mail if you like)

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by James on June 22, 1998 at 14:16:17:

 Have you shot a dpms ar if so tell me what you think of this brand of gun beside a colt or bushmaster?

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by Pecos Bill on June 23, 1998 at 17:42:19:

 This is just My opinion but for anybody that gets U.S. Cav catalogs, if you haven't checked out Brigade Quartermasters, you need to. They have comparable prices and a much better selection. Cav has started marketing camo as fashionable
and they have too much unrelated junk. Civil war swords?
The owner has a collection of them so he must put in what he likes not what we want Brigades address is "" if you haven't seen it,I hope you like it !!

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by Sandy Cambron on June 23, 1998 at 18:15:43:

 I am new to precision shooting and have just purchased a Remington 700 PSS. I am now in the process of adding a scope and am completely overwhelmed. I am looking for a scope with a mil dot reticle and target turrets. I guess it should be variable power in the range of 4 to 14 power. I have looked at a Leupold Vari X III (is the new paralax adjustment knob necessary?). I have also looked at the Springfield Armory second generation 4-14x56. I liked the features of the scope but couldn't figure out the reticle by reading the instruction manual. I also understand Burris has come out with a mil dot reticle in their Signature Series. I am a civilian shooter, but I want something that I will not outgrow or break as I become more experienced. I realize this question is very subjective, but in reading the posts on this board, I know there is tremendous experience and I'm looking for opinions.

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by BigEd on June 29, 1998 at 01:43:50:

Looking to buy a SOCOM .45 at a decent price. Please email me with any info. Are these worth the money? Have heard a few comments but would like more info.

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by Bryan Trunnell on July 04, 1998 at 00:58:00:

 I own a rail-equipped SVT-40, with an aftermarket scope mount and scope. I have two problems: despite attempts to lock the mount system to the weapon, it still shakes loose after about 20 rounds. I don't want to drill the reciever, thus messing with the historical value, so I'd like to know if I have any other options. Also, the extraction system is positive, but ejects at about 1-to-2 o'clock- strait up into the glass, with predictable results. Scout scopes are a joke, so I'd like pointers to find a deflector in order to find use loger glass. The weapon is a dream to shoot, and I can drill man sized targets at 500+ meters on the iron sights ( I'm a little nearsighted ). Also, is there a link to long-range competition results on the east coast ? I'm looking for Eric Jones from Mass and Tim Rawcliffe from 'Jersey.
Thanks, Turtle


Posted by Big John on July 04, 1998 at 10:03:36:

 Ok boys, I have a few extra dollars to spend on a good long range rifle. I now have a Remington 700 PSS in .308 Win. But this rifle's abilities are limited after 500 Yards. So I am looking for something to fill in the gap. I would Like to hear from those of you who have bought rifles in this price range and would appreciate your comments as to their strengths and shortcomings. Also, you dealers out there; Let me know what you have and how much you want for it!

Thanx in advance!
Big John

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by Counselor on July 07, 1998 at 01:44:18:

 Would like to hear from anyone who has first hand experience with the scopes offered by U.S. Optics. Thanks

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by Tim Washburn on July 09, 1998 at 21:25:32:

 Any experience with accuracy, durability, etc. with the AR10? How does it compare to HK91, SR9TC, etc? Any info would be appreciated.


Now, that's all there is, and enough of it I should think.  Please refrain from causing me so much work!  I don't have time to read the other nice posts here in the Roster now :-(


  To all:

No we're not normally all so grumpy here at SC! Sometimes it just seems that way.

My thanks to Marius for the outstanding work on the Emporium, Events, and Roster pages. Wow, our Editor-in-Chief ought to pay you more. Oh yeah, we do this for free and we don't have any money to pay anyone with.
Mr. Bain <>
Huh?, Oh yeah, USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 17:38:16 (EDT) 

To Robb:
I do know the difference between a M1A and a SR-25 but as far as I am concerned a semi-auto is a semi-auto. In an effort to be as brief as possible, I omited that statement from my earlier post. I apologize for that. But that is all. Semi-autos are not really a good rifle for the begining reloader. There are all kinds of ways to get into
trouble. Simple things like not checking cartridge O.A.L
or checking to make sure that the primer is seated fully, the list goes on and on. No offense but guys like you make me very nervous when you are on the firing line. You all should wear a sign around your neck maybe something like
"If you can read this sign you are too damn close to me for I am an Idjut reloader." Also it would be prudent to wear this sign when you try to sell that weapon.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 18:31:54 (EDT) 
Robb (and all interested)

RE Military / Fed Match losds. In my experience, the M-852 is NOT loaded w/ 42 gains of 4895. I've pulled & weighed many lot #s of 852 and M-118. The 852 is always about 40.5 of WHAT APPEARS TO BE 4895. The M-118 is about 44-44.3 grains of a ball powder (in the lots I've pulled, from 86 through 92 manufacture) that I've been told is WW-846, which is not a cannister grade powder, but is available on the surplus market. Federal match ammo I've pulled & weighed is about 42 grains, BUT IS DEFINITELY NOT 4895. Looks more like 4064

And do like they say, start low and work up, especially if you change any components. I just got done with a marathon load check session, testing a variety of charges with different bullets and powders. With the same powder charge, I got a difference of about 150 FPS difference just by switching from Sierra 168's to Hornady 168 A-Max's (the A-Max's were faster, going up to 2,887 FPS out of an M-1A-TOO HOT!!!)

Hope this helps
Tim Sarchett <>
Clovis , NM USA - Monday, July 13, 1998 at 22:30:01 (EDT) 

To Marius, "Web Stud" and all-around good guy!

"Thanks." I'm giving you a pay raise (double what you're now making) to include stock options, and I'm tripling the amount Sniper Country is currently paying into your retirement plan. Good work, lad, good work!

To Tim: Your comments on the A-Max are typical of what I've heard. These bullets are QUICKLY developing quite a reputation for EXTREME accuracy, and unfortunately I think the price will go up accordingly over time. I've got a few hundred, moly-coated, waiting to get loaded for my Savage 110FP Tactical.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 00:22:01 (EDT) 

To Laur:
I'm very sorry about the confusion.After I told you that I would look for the information that you wanted about the M852 I looked in my books and couldn't find it.I was thinking of where I could find your information when I read a message from Joe Reiss saying that you should e-mail him for the M852 tables that you wanted.I thought you now had what you wanted so I stopped looking for it.
Ask Joe Reiss if he still has it,if he doesn't I'll start looking again. Joe ???
Once again I'm sorry that you've been waiting so long.
USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 00:36:02 (EDT) 
Thanks for the FMJ input, I´ll get some and will let you know how they fly in my Bangstick.

My download time for the roster is just under 12 Sek. now, but I can forget posting anything in the late afternoon or evening.

Hey Russ, did the ugly pictures turn out ? Can I have one ?


Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 02:22:32 (EDT) 


just for interest, you don't have to download the full page to be able to post. If you want to say something, not necessarily relating it to a post, or read the others first, you can just let it load until you can see the input areas, and have your fun. Then you can look at the rest when download time is better.
I have that same problem here in South Africa - I don't even attempt to read the Roster at home any more. I now just do it here at work where we've got leased lines - normally during lunch.
Maintenance I still do from home, but it does take time.

Marius <>
RSA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 03:05:49 (EDT) 

yep, but most of the time I want to read the roster first to let of a unqualified comment to someones posting.
Do you know Alex Du Plessis ? If you run into him tell I said Hello.
Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 03:39:34 (EDT) 
To Haraldur.

41gr Norma N200 behind a 125gr bullet is an overload. I get flattend primers with 40gr N200 behind a 110gr pill.

The fastest 125gr bullet, Nosler ball.tip, I've fired was backed by Norma N202.

Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 04:02:40 (EDT) 

Ive been visiting this site for a year now, it just gets better and better. Keep up the good work and promoting a positive public look of snipers.

a loyal visitor

Chris Lawson
Chris Lawson <>
Marina, CA USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 04:27:27 (EDT) 

To Mr Bain, Russ, and Anyone else who can help:

I'm thinking about putting a "Red Mist" muzzle brake ( )on a Remington 700 in 300 Win Mag and would like some help. Is this a good quality brake? How will a muzzle brake affect the accuracy of the rifle?

Please respond on this board or e-mail me with your words of wisdom.
Thanks in advance for any help received.

(Russ, I never got a reply to that e-mail I sent you)
Brian Middleton <>
Irvine, CA USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 06:13:21 (EDT) 

I served in Beruit in 1983. I arrived there about 2 weeks after the bombing of the barracks in which 241 Marines and sailors were killed. As a sniper I sat in a position on the north end of the airport, waiting. Finally some payback after getting permission to shoot myself and Cpl wilson took out 2 Shiites at over 600 yards. I was proud to serve my country in this role and would do it again willingly. Semper Fi

Robert K. Canfield <>
Memphis, TN USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 06:39:12 (EDT) 

I looked at the page and it looks like a very complicated brake.
I have found that when it comes to muzzle brakes that the KISS aproach seems to work best. A brake that vents gases to one side only has to have higher internal pressures on the other side thus putting higher pressure and gasflow on the exiting projektile. The Mauser SR 86 I shoot has a brake, and it shoots to 1/2 MOA if I have a good day.
The brake design is very simple and gives the bullet enough time to leave the area of turbulence before the gases actually hit the deflecting surfaces around the circumference of the brake. M21 Brakes are reamed for that reason.
Also be advised that a muzzle break will double the stress on your scope and mounts as you now have recoil and counterrecoil forces pulling your rig in both directions.Leupold made some scopes using a glass etched reticle because they had their wire thingies break on .50 rifles with brakes. Your .300 Win Mag will give the same impuls because it is lighter than the .50´s
Oh yes and they are a lot louder from the shooters point of ear and will kick up more dust. Did I miss anything Russ,Bain ??


Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 08:31:33 (EDT) 

To Brian: I didn't forget you, I had to request the data again because I no longer have it. I'll get it to you as soon as it comes in. I sent you an E-mail on this, too.

In general, a brake can increase the endurable time of a shooting session. And, more importantly, accuracy "can" be retained (even enhanced) if... "if"... a competent gunsmith does the installation. If you're adding a new barrel, the "recommended" procedure is to freeze the barrel, turn it (for final contour), fit the muzzle brake into place, then freeze it again (this, if you're interested in removing all possible stresses during the barrel/brake installation process). This is how BlackStar prefers to address the matter.

To Torsten: I should be getting the pictures back today (I'm in a class for a few "days," so my lunch hour will permit me to get a few errands done.)

To Chris: Thanks for the kind words.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 10:00:22 (EDT) 

To Brian

Brian I have had several 300 win mags with breaks and the accuracy never changed a bit but both were put on by very good gunsmiths to where you couldnt tell where the barrel ended and the break began. I used the Vias break and I feel it's one of the best I've ever tried. It seems to work well and is'nt as loud as a lot of others I've shot.
You will definately have to where extra ear protection with breaks and prone shooting with out a mat under the barrel can be a new experience indeed. Hope this helps.

Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 10:36:01 (EDT) 

I use a 125gr sierra spitser soft point,rem 9,1/2 primers, and rem brass, and have never had any problems with pressure, and it makes a one hole group at 100m.
straight shooting!!
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
iceland - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 11:10:12 (EDT) 
To Brian (again): Normally I wouldn't say anything, but in this instance, if you do an Internet search for "Vias" muzzle brakes... you aren't going find jack ca-ca. It's "Vais" (pronounced "vice," I believe), made by a swell guy named George Vais. There was a wonderful write-up on him and his brakes in Precision Shooting magazine about a year ago. And quite true, a properly installed brake won't "show" -- you could look at the barrel on my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum for hours without finding a seam. And on accuracy... just last night, I had a report from my gunsmith -- the rifle he built for a mutual friend of ours for bear hunting, a .300 Winchester Magnum with a sporter-weight barrel (a #4 contour), is printing half-inch groups, consistently, at 200 yards. The owner visited my 'smith yesterday and brought by several targets. (This is a relatively lightweight hunting rifle.) "He" (my gunsmith) was surprised... I wasn't. I've got several samples of his work, as do others, and when he builds something, it SHOOTS. Frankly, it amazes me that HE is amazed. So, yes, a properly installed brake "can" contribute to lower recoil AND accurate shooting.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 14:48:24 (EDT) 

Thanks for the correction on the brake I was'nt sure of the correct spelling. I know if he ever tries one and then compares it to another he'll stay with the vais. Who is your gunsmith he sounds like my kind of guy?
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 15:14:47 (EDT) 

Russ/Mr. Bain

PAY?? You actually mean I'm gonna get paid?!? Aw, shucks, now you're making me blush, just look there.
Nah, coming to think of it, with the current value of money here?
Just give me books, plenty of books, that'll be fine.
Thank you sir, thank you very much. May you shoot them in the X-ring at 1500 yards with "The Wrath of God" every time, for as long as I get my books... :-)

Marius <>
RSA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 15:19:58 (EDT) 

Gunny Rayfield: SAY WHAT???????

Gooch: Be sure and let me know what the outcome was....

Bain: Tried your recommendation on the weapon, as usual it was right on! Thanks again!!!!!

Marius: GREAT JOB LAD!!!! (On the books subject are they nudies or edumacation)? :-)

To All: A duty slotted friend of mine finally got a SOCOM 45 for me to try, you were all correct, THEY SUCK! Fires well, nice weapon, (for a giant).....(They're BIG ya know)!! :-) Also picked up a 400 corbon barrel some time ago
for my .45, just drops in, works great, gives some more kick to the old shooter!!!!

Out here

Big Ed <>
USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 16:09:04 (EDT) 

I do know the difference between a M1A and a SR-25 (OK)
Simple things like not checking cartridge O.A.L (DID THAT)
or checking to make sure that the primer is seated fully,(DID THAT TOO)

Actually I went by the book for everything but the powder charge, which I picked up here in a roundabout fashion. and Ive been regularly re-loading for my M1A since last Fall and have worked up several loads just for it since then. The SR-25 was a one-time mistake/adventure and its not like Im using a progressive loader or anything. But I digress...

I didnt mean to imply that you or SC brainwashed me, I just falsely put too much trust in the information. Im pretty certain I explained the realization my own destiny determination as well. However I will quit being so honest from now on.

Started at 39.5 grains yesterday in .5 grain increments and it shot up to 42.5 without budging a primer this time. I didnt go any higher since 42 worked nicely and my exp with 43.5 went so poorly. Just figured I'd give a follow up.

Thank you, I appreciate your _constructive_ input.


Robb @ UNL
NE USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 18:10:38 (EDT) 


Had duty yesterday. Glad I scrolled back a bit to see what I'd missed! I'd hate to become persona non grata around here! Nothing more from me on "TFB" (The Forbidden Subject), I promise you! Once I get that custom Mauser I might actually have something relevant to post here...wouldn't want to alienate you guys!

Sgt G: Are you instructing for the class that just picked up this week? If so, drop me an e-mail. Three of your students are mine. I'll tell you which ones, so you can make sure they get some personal attention! Heheheh...

Matt <>
GA USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 18:52:43 (EDT) 

To Scott F.

RE: Torque Settings for the Remington 700

The general guide line for torque settings on the Remington 700 is 65 inch pounds, not foot pounds. I have seen many stocks, trigger guards and actions ruined by over torqueing.

As I mentioned the 65 inch pounds is a guide line. If you want to get the most from your rifle start at 40 inch pounds and work your way up at 5 inch pound increments shooting a test group at each setting. Then record your setting in you data book. You also need to make sure you use the same torques wrench if you have to retorque.

The next thing to be aware of is if you are using the original alloy trigger guard this will have an effect on maintaining your torque settings. A steel trigger guard such as the D.D. Ross units will not flex and offer a much more solid foundation to pull your action screws against. I have seen the alloy trigger guards where the actions screws pulled through.

Various gunsmiths I have consulted with most all agree the H S Precision stocks are good but do benifit from having the action properly bedded to the action.

As for your scope mounts 65 inch pounds may be way to much to torque to. Have a qualified gunsmith set up the mounts. Not all the Remington recievers out there have been drilled properly and this will effect how much you will have to use the scopes internal adjustments to compensate.

Contact me if you have any questions or if I can be of any assistance.

Bruce G. Buell
National Coach Development Staff
Bruce Buell <>
Orange Park, FL USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 21:37:45 (EDT) 

What would be a good rifle twist for a tactical rifle chambered in 7.62X63 (30-06). Anybody that has info. about 30-06 used as a sniper round, PLEASE HELP!!!
Also, what is the shortest barrel length I could use in this round as my team tactical rifle?
Any help, info, or suggestions would be great.
D. West <>
Orland Park, Ill. USA - Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 22:30:15 (EDT) 

D. West:

Did you read the article on the M72 military match cartridge on our "Ammunition and Reloading" page? The M72 was the only official military sniper round in .30-06. I seriously doubt that you will find much more information on the cartridge, unless you have access to someone's archives. There is also a new book out on the .30-06 cartridge. I read about it in the latest NRA magazine. Goes for $60.

Mr. Bain <>
Over here, over there USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:11:00 (EDT) 

D West:
For consideration of rate of twist; If you are planning on shooting primarily 150 to 190 grain bullets, the standard rate of twist for this barrel in a 30-06 should be 1in 10. If you are planning on only shooting 200 grain bullets and heavier consider a 1in 8 rate of twist. Minimum barrel length for the 150-to 190 bullets should be 23 to 24 inches and the 200 grain plus bullets you can probably get away with a 21 incher, however, I would prefer a 26 and 24 inch respectively. Also consider having a barrel a little fatter and lighten it up slightly by having the tube deeply fluted ( not just fluted for cosmetic purposes.)

Eyes are getting heavy. Sending my wife out on patrol now.


Al Ostapowicz <>
Sin CIty and Lovin it, Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:25:05 (EDT) 


On the books. Nudities? Edumacation? Both, as long as the nudes are stripped-down rifles, revealing all secret places, and the education is about ballistics, long-range shooting and related topics :-)

To all,

Take care when reloading, and shooting, and always remember to keep it safe, no matter what you do.

Marius <>
RSA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:41:00 (EDT) 

To Matt: And speaking of duty...

I had drill this past weekend. Weapons qual on Saturday. Zeroed right off the bat (first three shots touching, centered in the head of the little 25-meter zero target), no problem. Adjusted sights for elevation, shot confirmation, moved over to the RETS range. Knocking them down, bang bang bang. Went up to the tower to check results. Found my name... scanned over to the right... "24." TWENTY FOUR?!!! OUT OF 40 SHOTS?!!! I asked, "Excuse me, is this the TOTAL score?" The guy said yes, it was. Uh huh. I said, "But this indicates I missed 16 times." He said, "Yes, sir." I said, "But you don't understand... I don't miss... SIXTEEN TIMES." He said "Sir, maybe you were firing onto the targets in the next lane. Now, resisting choking the living @#%!@#% out of this guy, because somewhere in the back of my mind, and I think in the UCMJ, it's some kind of punishable offense to MURDER AN NCO... I said, calmly, "No, I don't believe I did." I know this, because I verify my target on EVERY shot, to MAKE SURE it's in MY lane. Doesn't take a rocket scientist. Still, to humor this guy, I looked at lanes '9' and '11' (I was on '10'). The young lady on '9' scored zero hits. (Not surprising, in my 16-plus years of experience, considering only a few of us in the military take "marksmanship" seriously.) The guy on '11' had something like "five" hits. So, again, I indicated that I thought extremely little of the good sergeant's RETS computer, and left the tower. Now, here's the deal; this was a KD range with only three sets of targets being utilized for this exercise... 75 meters, 175 meters, and 300 meters. The 300-meter target in "my" lane was largely obscured by vegetation, so I missed all of them (about 6 presentations total). I missed "one" target at 175 meters, because sweat was in my eyes and I just blew the shot. So, if you're counting along with me, this is a total of SEVEN misses. I'd have still had my "expert." (Note: "Expert" is a big thing to me. Taylors "shoot." We don't do badminton, polo, "golf" (gag, puke, gnashing of teeth), cribbage, or water ski. We shoot. Dad was a Marine. HIS Dad was a WW I grunt, who shot well enough that, under fire, he took out a sniper who was trying to take HIM out... Grampa's words were that he "didn't like him dusting sand in my face." So, let me state, "shooting" is a big thing to the men in my family.) Therefore, I "MINIMALLY" qualified. Did I b***h? Hell no. Would have been noted as just some crybaby officer whining about his score. Did the soldierly thing, sucked it up and drove on.

Thing is... one of the safeties, a buddy of mine, had been standing behind me while I was shooting. On THREE occasions, he was joking (for my benefit) while I was shooting, "that's NIIIIIIICE shootin', Tex" -- because I was knocking targets down time after time after time. I told him what the RETS computer recorded, and he couldn't believe it either. No, it's not a matter of "too many holes in the targets" -- because if THAT was the case, they just wouldn't have gone down! Rather, they WERE going down, in MY lane... and the bloody !#%!@#%^# computer wasn't recording them as hits. SIXTEEN MISSES??? ON A POP-UP RANGE??? NO !#%!#% WAY!

However, there IS a God. My boss, COL Light, who "just happens to work at the Rock Island Arsenal" where I also work... knows the RETS manager in ACALA. Sooooo... I think my "displeasure" has been made known to the latter individual.

Hey, I'm "sure" the RETS is a fine, upstanding system -- WHEN IT WORKS!!! However, I wasn't too thrilled with the equipment on THAT day. And, being a staff puke now, I sure missed having some trainees around, like in "the good ol' days," to chew out to relieve some stress.

So Matt... how was YOUR weekend?

Anyone else got any $^!%#!#@ screwed-up weapons qualification stories? Drop me an E-mail if you don't want to share them here.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:41:36 (EDT) 

Oh, and I should mention, on a pop-up range, I usually shoot "clean"... or a '39' or '38.'
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 02:47:42 (EDT) 
I am commpressed !
Germany - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 03:25:58 (EDT) 
To Russ:

Sorry to hear about the computer malfunction on your range. The Marine Corps may still be in the "stone age" regarding some things but we like having live bodies pulling targets on the range. People still make mistakes but when they do you can have your coach or the range official call down to the "butts" and have them pull the target down and check it for a shot hole.

It doesn't always work out in your favor but at least you have someone to blame!
Besides, it's good training that builds teamwork (2 people pulling & scoring on each target) and you even get to hear what a round sounds like passing over your head. FUN!

I hope they correct your score.
Brian Middleton <>
Irvine, CA USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 03:46:17 (EDT) 

We went shooting a few weeks back with our new G-36´s.
All Qualification rules we have in the Bundeswehr are still set for the G-3 and so EVERYONE passed Gold (Expert).
Well the new G-36 rules are out now and I look forward to what will happen next time we shoot. The G-36 handles well,even on full Auto, but to someone like me that dragged a G-3 around for 15 years now it sure looks and feels like a Starwars Blaster.
I wonder how long the red dot sight will last and when the first stocks will break in Urban Combat training. A big problem will be the Magazine. I do not understand why we have a standard Mag in the NATO that will fit all 5,56´s but the Germans have to make their own design. The Mag must be a throw away type deal(I dont think so) because they lack the steel inserts in the Mag lips common to all Ramline Mag´s. I already have a bet going with our Weapons NCO as to when the first 30 rounds will go out the top of the G-36 due to weak Maglips on a reload.
Also we are using the same old Blank fireing device we had on the g-3. If something was a piece of &%$§ than this was.The G-36 sounds like a mole fart when using blanks.
But someone was up early when they decided to use up the AK74 bayonets. We have so many since we "liberated" the east that it is our new Combat Knife. Better than the Swiss Army folder in OD green. It only makes me wonder that they trust the kids with g-36´s, but wont issue the Bayonet´s because someone could get hurt ?
I´ll shoot a G-36 on paper for group and will let you know shortly.
Oh , and we are now using a new Targeting device using Microphones to plot the location of the hit on target and show it on a monitor. Have now used it, but will come back with info next month.

Oberfeldwebel Erning, melde mich ab.
Torsten <>
Germany - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 04:01:18 (EDT) 

To Brian: Yes, like you, I prefer the "pull, paste, and half mast all targets" routine. More honest. No, the score will stand, but thanks for the sentiment, I appreciate it.

To Torsten: Is this the Oehler system (sound/scoring)? If so, I'm familiar with it. Boy, you sure get to play with the neat stuff!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 04:59:48 (EDT) 

For information about subscribing to Wound Ballistics Review, you can click the link here in this post.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 06:33:51 (EDT) 
To Torsten and Russ.

Electronic targets.

Torsten, this is the reason why you have to use FMJ's.

The rubbermembrane on the targets lasts much longer with FMJ's. These bullets slices trough the rubber. HP-matchbullets cuts a small hole in the rubber. Huntingbullets are even worse.

The rubber membrane targets lasts ca. 8-10000 rounds FMJ's, 5-6000 rounds HP-match and down to 1000-1500 with large cal. huntingbullets.

The 3 mikrophones are usually mounted in the bottom of the targetframes and hidden from bulletpaths. The mikes have to be cleand from falling rubberparticles from time to time. You can also mount the mikes in the top of the frame but they are not bulletproof.

These targetsystems are standard on the major 2-300m ranges in the Norwegian army.

The best targetsystems come from Sius-Ascor in Switzerland. (something for the linkspage?)

In large international matches Sius has live realtime scoring on the net!
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 06:38:38 (EDT) 

98 UIT World Championship in Barcelona, Spain will be live online on Sius website from july 18.
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 07:07:25 (EDT) 
What rifle are the SEALS using to fire their .300 Win. round
that features the Sierra 190 Matchking @ 2900-3000 fps?
USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 10:08:40 (EDT) 
Has anyone used the new Vita Vuori powder in the 308 with the 168 or the new 175 grain bullets?? If so, how well does it work compared to the older N-140 or N-150 for velocity and accuracy? Also Iam interested in any information on the accuracy of the new AMAX 168 compared to the sierra 168.
I have a 1-12 twist in both of my rifles. If anyone has tried any of these combinations please drop me a line. Thank you.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 12:31:21 (EDT) 
I am looking to buy a spotting scope. My budget is limited to about $300-. I generally shoot from 100 - 200yds due to limited ranges in my area. I would like a spotting scope that I could use at ranges out to 1000yds. Does this type of scope even exist?
Dan O'Toole
Milford, MA USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 13:37:29 (EDT) 
What gives? I just bought the "loaded" M1A just last year, and used up my meal ticket with the 3rd gen. scope mount, and all the mags. Too many times I'm hearing about the M-14 being brought back as the M-25. Is this true? If so, what kind of specs. does it have over the M-21.
Man, just when you thought that you were catching up, this happens.
P.S. Now this is a web sight with my kind of people.Great job! D. West
D. West <>
Orland park , Ill USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 14:20:20 (EDT) 

Where can I go to get a rifle built up. I would like to use my receiver of a left-handed Rem.700 BDL. L.A. but I have yet to see any other tactical rifle useing a long-action other than the M-24. As you know, I was thinking of keeping the chambering for the 30-06, But if this isn't a good call, Please let me know. I've checked H.S. precision, and AWC-tech, to have the work done, do you know of any other places to check out to get the job done right the first time around? EVERY time I think of this project, I get this sick feeling, the last thing I want to do is spend big bucks for a !*&%$-up rifle.
D. West <>
Orland park, Ill. USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 14:45:54 (EDT) 
Thankyou for the pointer to Armament Technology!

I'm currently working with Andrew on a .300 WinMag Rifle.

From our phone discussion, I'm quite impressed with this company.

PS, Andrew has quite a viewpoint on the Bausch & Lomb
Tactical scopes, any comments, or experiences?
Jeff Pack <>
USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:06:29 (EDT) 


It has been awhile since I have been able to access the site. Missed all the info and the exchange of information. Good to see the comments of Kodiac, Gooch, Rick, Sgt. G., Scott, Russ, etc.

I need to monitor the memberships response to a possible violation of protocol on my part. I received a private email admonishing me for my use of the term "girls" on my 30 June post to the duty roster. This individual (female, I presume), suggested I use the term "wannabe" as "girls" was more offensive than "chicks". I explained that the term "girls" is a time honored term of affectionate disparagement among male soldiers, especially soldiers in elite units. The term "wannabe" is an insult. I was not intending to insult anyone, and I did not intend to offend anyone's sensibilities, however I will accept the membership or the council's correction if I stepped over the line of political correctness.

This site is marked by collegial debate and respectful disagreement as well as the occasional rough humor that is consistent with the comraderie that most of us have known in the world of military and law enforcement activities. Now I am referring to the pre-coeducational military and law enforcement. If I am just too far removed generationally from the modern notions of political correctness, I'll sure stand down. I was just surprised that such an innocent comment could cause such distress. I will accept the findings of the membership or the council. It could be that I am not being sensitive enough.

James R. Jarrett, SSG
Team Leader
Project Delta (Det B-52)
5th Special Forces Group (Abn), 1st Special Forces
Director, American Shooting Academy
Professor, Criminal Justice, FHSU
James R. Jarrett <>
Phoenix, USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:13:38 (EDT) 

To Jim Jarrett: Never apologize. Refer your little friend to "" if s/he is looking for political correctness on gender issues. You not sensitive enough?? My God, man, all this country needs to send it down the toilet once and for all is more of Phil Donohue and Alan Alda! Stand your ground. (And you can call me "girl" anytime.) :-)

Back to the shadows where I've been lurking .....
Alex(andra) M.
Chicago, USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:36:19 (EDT) 

Hello Everyone,

I was reading an article from 1993 which is online at the Atlantic Monthly website. It is rabidly anti-gun. I engaged the author in the site's public forum with logic and what I hope will be perceived as eloquence...we'll see. My post was followed up by a few people, one of them is a real weenie. He likes to get personal in order to belittle his opponent. I am optimistic that some of you will read the article and follow the thread of conversation. I will continue to argue that guns do have a rightful place in America's civil culture and he will continue to argue that we are not smart enough to be trusted with guns. I do not hope to convert him, only to provide him with the opportunity to make an ass of himself in public while I remain calm, rational and respectful. If any of you would wish to help out you can type in "Atlantic Monthly" on your search engine field. The story (The Story of a Gun, by Erik Larson) is under the Community and Society page. Our comments are at the Post and Riposte page. Thank you for any help and please don't blow your cool. We can keep this guy on the defensive with a little thought and effort.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:50:36 (EDT) 


Nice to hear from you again. And please, it is "James." I was tempted to make a similar remark, but I have enjoyed some of this person's significant other's comments and did not wish to be too aggressive in my reply. It may just be miscommunication. Thanks for your comment.

James R. Jarrett <>
Phoenix, USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 15:54:20 (EDT) 

James: That was my wife, Stacey, who made the comment. She is a flaming liberal feminist with conservative tendencies. You didn't hurt her feelings. She just likes to stir the sh_t. I was reading some of the posts that night and she just had to get her two cents worth in. That's what makes a horserace, though. We have some MAJOR disputes. It's a lot of fun even though it gets pretty heated a lot of times. Beyond that we're good friends and have been married 13 years now. She's not above capping some poor bastard under the proper legal circumstances should our lives or home be threatened. I keep a 12 guage pump by the bed for family protection and she's glad of it. It's amazing how fast her "let's rehabilitate 'em" attitude changes when it's her bacon on the line. Like I say, she's a good person and you would get along with her just fine. Don't feel like you have to change your demeanor just because she made a comment. She was a soldier once, sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution. She loves to shoot an M16. You are welcome in our home at anytime Pal.

Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 16:37:32 (EDT) 


It's been a long time since I have contributed to this forum and even my own page has suffered from my lack of time. Things are going to change! First of all, I have got a couple of question to all of you.

1. On may 19th, someone said about the Ultimate Sniper Stock: "....The action still had to be bedded to fill the over 0.100 inches behind the recoil lug...."> Now I do see the point of having the recoil lug sit against the bedding, but how on earth do you find out wether it touches or not?

2. (Maybe something for you, Russ) I noticed the Sako TRG and the Savage 110FP having the same muzzle-diameter. I therefore am planning to mount the TRG's muzzlebrake, wich is available for about $100, onto my Savage. Does any of you have any experience with this.

3. Lapping the bore. I was thinking of lapping the bore of my new Savage 10FLP I'm expecting end of august. Due to the fact that I live in Europe and supply of specialised products to my continent is sparse, I was thinking of using the finest form of valve lapping paste, as used on car-valves. Good or bad idea?

I read you mounted your Savage in an A2 stock. What finish-level did you purchase and did you do the bedding yourself? I read bad things about the exterior finish of the Mac-stock, though find those hard to believe, cause McMillan has such a reputation. How about it?

Take care and thanks in advance for the answers!

Stefan <>
Netherlands - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 17:02:55 (EDT) 


I understand and appreciate your comments. Nothing like a good horse race. My comments to Stacey in private email were a bit more pointed, but no disrespect was meant. I read your posts on the Atlantic Monthly bit. Good response. Larson is not an idiot and does make good points, but he misses the whole issue of accountability and liberty. Also, his use of statistical data is sleight of hand, and after five years (his article being 1993 vintage)the data is no longer relevant. How far is Ogden from Hays?

James R. Jarrett <>
Phoenix, USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 17:04:46 (EDT) 

Received my t-shirt commemorating the Carlos Hathcock competition the other day. Nobody seems to have the b@##* to ask what it means when I wear it out in town. Too bad. Anyway, thanks. I hope all is well with The Gunny and family. By the way, did he retire as a Gunny or a Master Gunny?
Also, color me ignorant if you must, but why does no one mention the Ruger Varmint rifle? I've been keeping the bunny and squirrel population down with mine in .223 (Love those Speer 50 gr TNTsS!). Seems like a solid platform. What's the word?

Take care and Semper-Fi!
dennis <>
Merced, ca USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 17:07:24 (EDT) 

Does anyone have any opinion or info regarding the 6.5mm/08?

I have a .308 and 300WM and was thinking about building a rifle on a M700 SA and chambering for 6.5mm/08 (or .260 rem.) I'll shoot 140gr match or VLD molyed bullets. Barrel will be no. 7 contour,1 in 8 twist, and finished at 26 inches. I've decided to try an Accumax II.

What kind of performance can I acheive in terms of velocity; how much range can I expect; barrel life- that sort of thing.

Does anyone have any suggestions about a good long range 6mm or 6.5mm cartridge.

I've just perused the Duty Roster and it is great. I'm not a sniper or military or anything but a guy who loves the idea of long range tactical and field shooting.

To everybody that's put time and energy into creating Sniper Country: Thank's for doing such a great job. Thanks for being here. Keep up the good work.


Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 18:22:23 (EDT) 

Hello everyone,

I'm very interested in exterior ballistics and terminal performance and being a programmer I've decided to develop yet another exterior ballistics simulator, but unlike the ones I've seen so far this one will be a java based application that will run within the very familiar web browser you are using now. You won't have to download anything special or to install any software in order to use it. It will run on any java capable browser like Internet Explorer or Netscape Communicator.

Well the idea is to make a java application that would allow you to calculate things such as:

flight path
kinetic energy
angle compensation
wind drift compensation
terminal performance and penetration
multi-projectile comparison

I would distribute the application freely to anyone with a web site that deals in this subject matter.

This would be a great benefit to everyone out there that re-loads or has an interest in ballistics. As they would be able to use the application free of charge.

I've look for formulas on-line but so far everything that I've seen is very weak. I need solid formulas that take all possible variables into consideration.

I'm a programmer not a physicist. I can make an accurate application but I need to start with good solid formulas.

If anyone is interested in participating in this project please contact me at the e-mail address bellow.

Thanks you,

Benny Millares
Benny Millares <>
Miami Beach, Fl USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 18:31:24 (EDT) 

Chris Lawson: Say hi to the guys at Trigger Hill.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 18:40:55 (EDT) 
Hey Russ:
Sorry pal, that was a raw deal you got. I hope that someone sees the light and you get your score changed. Do I have a qualification story? Well, ha, ha, um, yes, I do.

Fort Knox Basic Officers Training, 1994. I was issued one M-16 with the 3 round burst option. Upon sighting in, it grouped well enough but it got to where every single round would jam. I would have to go throught the STARS or STARS or whatever it was the whole time while in the prone position for each and every round, which did not do well for consistency. Alas, they gave me another rifle.
Rifle #2 never did get properly sighted in. Why? How? Check this out. The Drill SGT. turned my sights all the way in one direction, counted the clicks, and then did the same thing for my new rifle!!!!!!!! Hell, I thought, this is a fubar waiting to happen. I tried to explain to him that that would not work but I was just a cadet, and he was the Drill SGT. As it turns out, rifle #2 did the same things. So, on to rifle #3.
Rifle #3 was a disaster. We were actually into the process of qualifying and I never could because my rifle was so out of tune, and Kentucky windage (no pun intended) was not cutting it. I think I saw bullet strikes at 200 yards maybe 7-9 feet to the left and low several feet. Bad? Wait, it gets better.
Everyone was getting anxious because I wasn't qualifying. No one there, soldier or cadet, really understood about rifles and consistency and sighting in, but I was just 18 so what did I know? (More than them!) It was a letdown of the whole platoon. So, they tried to get me to practice on the "Weaponeer" in which I would regularly zap a 300 yard simulated target 12 out of 12 times. Head scratching abounded, but I was just a cadet so what did my explanations mean? Back at barracks I SWEAR TO GOD they set up a SUPER NINTENDO and hooked a dummy rifle to it and forced us to practice on it!!!!!!!!!! Jeez!!!!!!!!!!! I SWEAR this is true!!!!! Our military at work, I guess.
Qualification day. My rifle started off malfunctioning bad, and it got worse. So, they took my rifle and pulled another one that was sitting in reserve right off the line. No sighting in or anything, just qualify, cadet.... I am firing and my rifle is !@#$$%^ up and this attracts the attention of the Drill SGT. He is standing right behind me, thank God, so is a witness to what happened. On another firing series I loaded my weapon, pushed the bolt release and the damn thing went off as the bolt slammed home!!! Finger was off the trigger, of course, SGT. was a witness. Against my better judgement I commenced firing and it kept jamming, time after time, and I swear that once it fired a two round burst. I had had it. I started cursing and the Drill SGT. just told me to calm down. Didn't get mad at me, but he did make some comment about that weapon should never be allowed on this range. I wasn't going to put my face behind that damn gun for another round, ass-chewing be damned. My point? I didn't qualify. For anything. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
Sorry the post is so long but it still chaps my ass after a few years.--------------------To everyone: I will get hired on the 31st and Academy starts Aug 3rd. I passed my physical and MMPI, although I was called in for some questioning about Naugas and such.....
Illigitemum non Carborundum and good shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 18:45:46 (EDT) 

Sorry for sounding ignorant but english is not my native language,
what is "lapping the bore"??????

straight shooting!
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Egilsst., Iceland - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 19:23:02 (EDT) 

"Lapping" is polishing. The technique is to coat a soft lead plug with an abrasive grit and stroke it back and forth through a barrel to polish off the roughness. Finer and finer grit as you go along. Another trick is to coat bullets with grit and fire them at very low velocities.

If the little pamphlet in my expensive Firelapping brand kit is to be believed, our Dutch colleague would be advised not to use automotive valve grinding compound. However, the consensus here seems to be mixed on Firelapping. It may erode the throat unnecessarily or it may be good for the tool marks in the barrel. I followed the instructions on one of my rifles but haven't noticed any difference.

Terry Warner <>
Canada - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 20:37:32 (EDT) 

Haraldur: What is "lapping the bore?" Well, I don't know if it's proper to say in mixed (read: women or girls, or whatever) company. I hear that it's $50, though. Same as downtown.

D. West: Please read our article on the M21 and M25 systems in the Articles and Commentary section. Oh, and some publication recently ran an article on it. Don't recall where or who. . .

Jeff Pack: Andy Webber demands quality and clarity of the suppliers of optical components for his precision systems. I have both the Leupold M3 (on my M21/M25) and the B&L Tactical (on my AT1 M24). I wanted Leupold for the M24, but Andy insisted otherwise. I'm glad he did. The glass is very bright, noticeably more so than the Leupold. On the downside, the posts and reticle are thicker than with the Leupold, and the B&L has .25 MOA adjustments, whereas the Leupold has the BDC and .5 MOA windage. Check out our reviews of these scopes on "In Review." The B&L, I believe, is the better scope for an Armament Technology rifle. It will allow you to get more use out of your precision instrument. The Leupold is better with the semi-auto; not as accurate, but certainly faster to use.

To all: I just received from High Desert Holsters (courtesy of Mike Herd at Bradshaw Pistol Academy), an outstanding kydex holster for my 1911. Expect a review soon on this fabulous holster (priced far more reasonably than any other kydex holster I've seen to-date). Herd has one for his Glock. This may be one issue on which 9mm and .45 owners can agree!

Two more notes: 1) James Jarrett and his American Shooting Academy are holding a Field Training Exercise at the end of the month (7/30 - 8/1, I believe) in New Mexico. There will be more to follow on this, but it would appear that Jim Craig (Roster regular) and I might be heading down to the Land of Enchantment for this FTX. Hope to see some of you there! 2) Also, Dave Lauck's Small Arms Training Academy is holding a sniper competition with a separate event for Carlos Hathcock. Yes, the main competition is expensive. It's my understanding though that one can only shoot the Hathcock portion of the event. Please, make an effort to attend Lauck's event and participate in both the competition and Hathcock charity shoot.

Bain out.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 21:11:59 (EDT) 

Well, since Benny brought it up let me make a little segue on the ballistic software issue...

Which software is best?

I have been thinking of buying "Gun
Controller Macintosh" not just because I am a degenerate Mac user (I have a PC too) but because the new version seems to be at least one step ahead of everyone else... Also for the new version they now have the Army Ballistic Research Lab's algorithms. It's not cheap but to me it looks like the best one around. You can read their propaganda at

Any opinions on this or which other ballistics software is "best", please let me know...

Thanks guys! (and gals! Almost forgot to be pc....)

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 21:24:07 (EDT) 

Man, miss a couple of days and look at the fun!!

Mr. Bain - Hate the B&L, .25 moa is too small an increment for effect shooting. The Palma Team uses .5 moa adjustments because .25 is too small. .25 moa adjustments is zeroing adjustments within an inch (1/8 moa) at 800 yards. The M3A has 1 moa adjustments and that gets me within 4 inches at 800 yards (.5 moa). Let the fun begin!! On a lighter note, you had mentioned aquiring Brookfield mounts (This is for D. West as well) Creedmore Sports has three on hand at the ridiculus price of 299.98. Item number C1059. Try Brookfield direct at 137-A Quaboag Street, East Brookfield, Mass. The phone number I have is 10 years old but try 867-7714. The old zip was 617, that has changed I believe. Also have fun on the FTX. My guys just jumped in this evening and will move overland to a hit in the morning. They have their one round worth 100 course points.

Alex - Stay out of the d**n shadows and help these "girls" keep perspective in this testostrone driven world.

D. West - The M25 has been around for a while and DO read Mr. Bain's excellent article on the subject. I personnally would go with a bolt gun because M21/25s are just too dam fragile! Have fun Big Ed!! Stay away from the 30.06, it is an inefficent 308! Use short action 308 or long action 300. Or better yet go with one of the 6.5s. What range are you shooting?

Scott - The SEALS, in their ability too use more money than is necessary, use a mix of weapons. These include, but don't include all, the RAD M91, the McMillian, and a ROBAR variant. Becareful copying the SEALS. They have a tendency to go with way too many bells and whistles! We are fighting them now over that nonsense on the INOD.

Russ - Next time challenge the computer! You can "request" (read demand) a human coach/scorer, especially when you have a witness that supports your account. The computers have messed all the ranges up here at Bragg.

James - Shame on you, you insensitive clod!!!!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 23:27:40 (EDT) 

I have not considered the Ruger M77 because of their spotty quality control, some shoot some don't. But the main reason is because: Bill Ruger is THE PERSON who dreamed up the "10 round mag" idea. He was filmed with Tom Brokaw as Bill said "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun" and "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round mags or my folding stock" and "I see nothing wrong with
waiting periods". Also keep in mind that Ron Stewert (CEO of Colt) recently went on record as favoring a federally mandated "smart gun" as well as a national firearms registry and evaluation (harassment) of all potential firearms purchasers. this all brings us to Brady II which goes into effect 11/98 in which all of us will now need government permission to purchase a new "sporting arm" that's right, you will have to tell them what you are buying, what the serial number is, and your profile including social security number. it may have happened anyway, but Ruger and Stewert didn't have to sell out and support it.

Rich <>
WA USA - Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 23:38:37 (EDT) 

recieved this e mail today...
Col. Rex Applegate Dead
My friend Colonel Rex was preparing to give a pointshooting demo on Sunday and had a stroke. He died today, 7/14/98.
John Ross
Rich <>
WA USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 00:59:38 (EDT) 
To D. West: Thanks for the kind words. For all the maintenance concerns over the M14 system, it's still here with us, like the UH-1 Iroquois -- but you know what? From personal experience, I can tell you I love both, and there's a reason both are still in our nation's inventory. As for building up a rifle, there are levels of improvement -- from slight modifications to full overhauls. First, find a competent gunsmith who will patiently explain your options AND give you specific prices. Then, make your decision. And if you don't find a gunsmith who will give you what YOU want... find another one.

To my good friend James: Be it known that we are NOT that "politically correct" around here, and soldierly terms such as "girls, ladies, maggots, dirtbags," and the like WILL be tolerated in reference to training discussions. Good grief.

To Stefan: In the matter of ANYTHING touching ANYTHING (concerning firearms components), "smoke it." Use a candle to smoke the area in question. This is what I'm doing to relieve the area that will need to be bedded in my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. Or, you could take the quick-and-easy way, and get some "sight black" spray (from Hoppe's or Outers, I can't recall at the moment). (Stuff comes off easily by just cleaning it off when you're done using it.) When you smoke (or spray) a part then install it, the areas that are rubbing will easily reveal themselves to you.

Threading is the only concern, once you've found a brake of the diameter you want. Beyond that, just make sure the design of the brake itself will compliment the type of shooting you'll be doing.

On lapping with valve-grinding compound -- generally speaking, I wouldn't recommend it, or at least not the ones "I" am thinking of. There are too many products specifically tailored for such projects. Follow instructions, especially if the abrasives are NOT "non-embedding." MAKE SURE YOU USE A "SOFT" SLUG TO DO THE LAPPING WITH -- DO NOT USE A HARD-CAST "SHOOTING" BULLET TO DO YOUR LAPPING WORK!!!

My McMillan A-2 Tactical stock came, as requested, with a black finish. Truly not a tactical choice, but I like "black" when it comes to clothes and firearms. Employment needs always dictate the type of camouflage anyway, which is why God created burlap and paint. My gunsmith pillar/glass bedded the action. I have personally never heard any complaints about McMillan's stocks and have experienced none myself -- my only complaint with McMillan is their "occasional" lengthy delay in shipping what is ordered.

To Jeff A: Thanks for the kind words.

To Nathan: Good story. And... I believe EVERY word you wrote! I've tried to do what "I" can to change "views" on marksmanship training in the Army -- but I'm a lowly captain and no one listens to me. Sadly, when "nonshooters" are running things, or when "sort-of shooters" are involved, stories such as yours are the norm. It's sad. It's pathetic, actually.

To Dave:

I don't know about "best," but you can read my review of Load From a Disk for Windows. It's a nice package, will figure charges for wildcats that don't even exist (in case you want to see "what if"), and has some slick features that I haven't run across in shareware versions to date. However, for shareware, I prefer PCB (Personal Computer Ballistics), available via this website.

To Rick: Thanks, VERY much, for the advice. I will remember it. Glad to hear that I'm not the only one this has happened to -- thanks for sharing.

To Rich: You echo my sentiments on "things Ruger." There's a lot of things going on in the gun control arena, many of which (as a dealer) I see will affect you and (especially) me. I try to keep the politics off of here, for the most part, but... guys, we REALLY need to be doing our own Internet searches and send some FAXes and E-mails. That's all I'll say on the matter, except to remind you that "snipers and sniper rifles and OPTICS are evil, evil, EVIL things" -- just ask any parent with a kid in school... they're the experts, right? (sarcasm)

In general: I was floored to learn of COL Applegate's demise. Truly a legend in our time, sometimes controversial, always interesting. He'll be missed.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 03:25:03 (EDT) 

To Jeff A., re. 6.5mm rounds.

6.5-08 is a very good choice for a Rem700SA. Casecapasity is almost identical with 6.5X55. Reduced 6.5X55-data can be used as startingloads for 6.5-08.

Differences in internal dimentions of 6.5mm barrels makes pressure and velocitycomparisons difficult. US barrels are tighter than eurobarrels. I've seen a 2600fps/lopressure-load in a eurobarrel do almost 2800fps in a US-stainless steel barrel with flattend primers. ( exception to the rule: Carl Walther-barrels for Krags are tighter than US-barrels. BE CAREFUL!!!) These factors vary more than the difference in casecapasity between the -08 and X55 case. US-barrels with tighter grooves has better barrellife than eurobarrels.

These 6.5mm rounds has the ability to duplicate the trajectories and winddrifttables of a .300winmag with the advantage of much better barrlellife.

130-140gr molycoated bullets at 2600-2650fps should give a barrellife of at least 8000 rounds in a US-SS barrel. The most popular powders for this performance are in the VV N160/RL19 class.

For longrange target and sniping Norma MRP/Alliant RL22 is THE POWDER for highspeed loads in 6.5X55.

Max. load for a 140gr bullet is usually 49gr MRP/RL22 giving 2750-2800fps. Not bad with BC's in the .630-class with Berger or Lapua bullets.

Norma has a 130gr VLD molycoated bullet with BC ca. .570 ( can't remember exactly), roughly the same as Sierra .30cal, 190gr MK. A friend pushed this bullet to 3050fps with 51gr MRP in a 6.5X55 with a 24" SS Douglas barrel without any sign of high pressure.

Using these highspeed loads you're looking at a barrellife of 4-5000 rounds with matchgrade accuracy.


I have no experience with 6mm longrange rounds. The 6mm BR with 105-107gr VLD's loaded to ca. 2800fps in 1-8" twist barrels has been cleaning up in the 300m UIT-shooting. Very efficient. Should give extended ballellife
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 04:40:57 (EDT) 

Just as a point, in reference to part of my last post and regarding efforts to grab our guns, I wonder why you can make a "tax deductible contribution" to the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (see the article), but you can't make one to the National Rifle Association.

Next subject: Night vision optics. Who's got them (of you folks) and what's the consensus on what's available (ITT and the Russian imports)? In the vein of "Who owns the night?", I'd like to bring attention to the fact that very few shooters seem to give serious consideration to low-light operations. In keeping with what I was taught at the armor school at FT Knox, KY, which is "what can be seen can be hit -- what can be hit can be killed"... if you CAN'T see it, you WON'T kill it. Comments? Recommendations?
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 05:29:48 (EDT) 

Semper Fi to all you Marines! Just thought I would say err..
Are there any Marksmanship instructors from Quatico,MCB out there?
Damon Allen <>
Frederick, MD USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 07:16:03 (EDT) 
OK Rick: FRAGILE MY ASS!!!!!!! My M-21 is as firm as a rock and shoots just fine, (I just can't see anymore):-)

See the writeups here on the M-21/25 diffs, Bain puts out a good article!

BTW Ricky, I'm gonna, GASP, get a bolt gun!!!!! Ok, I've said it, now I'm gonna do it. Gunny Rayfield is gonna build one up on the Rem 700PSS for me, now I've got to scope it.....

Bain: What rings and scope did you recommend to me????

Out here

Big Ed <>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 08:25:53 (EDT)

Russ, you asked for irritating qualification stories. This one was kind of fun: My buddy Sgt. Benton and I are about on the same level of of skill where marksmanship is conserned. If I shot 39 out of 40, Dan would shoot 37 out of 40. One day during a qual at Ft. AP Hill, Benton was given a rifle, told to rezero it, and go qualify. I am not sure what happened to his issue weapon. The good Sgt. went prone and proceeded to miss the first 10 shots on a 200 yard paper target. At first I thought this was because I was to his left, trying my level best to drop my ejecting cases down the back of his BDU neck. I had found if I tilted the rifle just a bit, I could toast the guy next to me by kicking cases into his shirt. Gooch is not the only EVIL one here! At the time, I "owed" Dan one and figured this would be payback time! But as it turned out, Sgt. Benton could not hit anything at all, even after adjusting his rear sight till it hit the stops. It had nothing at all to do with my shinanigans.

Sgt. Benton did some serious mental work, observed the next dirt impact, said "FIDO!" and switched to using the protective ear of the front sight houseing as a front sight post. By aiming low, and using the rabbit ear, he was still able to nail 28 out of 40. He was pretty pissed as his qualification level dropped a notch, but the rifle went back to have its barrel recentered and served him well thereafter. His barrel was litterally canted over to the side!

By the way, Dan got his revenge. He made damn sure he was to MY left next time we qualified!

Any of you folks ever shoot a qual at Benning, watch out for Black Widows. During Basic, I came with in a half inch of putting my hand on one while waiting to shoot. That would do nothing positive for your skill level and consentration!
Scott Powers
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 09:25:42 (EDT) 

Night Vision:
Russ, I own a ITT Enforcer II Gen hand held monokular unit.
For me it works well, and I like it better than Bino´s because you only loose your night vision on one eye (the non shooting ). And it does not lure you into the "they cant see me" mind set.
I am playing with a mount to attach it in front of my scope.
For my version of a cheapo Simrad.
A 1911 style weaver mount would fit the side of my Mausers stock, but the ITT is has such a good human engineering shape that it will be difficult to mold a fitting mount for it. A round unit would surely fit some of our monster scope rings the hunters use around here.
Just holding it in front of the scope it looks as if it would work and there is enough focus in both scope and NV to get a sharp picture.
I´ll play with it during our Sniper class because as a civilian I am not allowed to have one. Does anyone of you have an idea about parralax with this kind of set up ?
PS I have Calyume stick booby trap, that will work real nice with IR light sticks and allow you to wake up the other guy before hammering the bad guys. Unless they have NV´s. I´ll keep feeding you info as I gain it.

Germany - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 10:02:29 (EDT) 

I always shoot 40/40 on the alternate (scaled C silhouette) course at 25 meters but on the regular fan fire course (M31A1 Target Mechanisms) I normally shoot 37 - 40/40. Maybe I'm just a lousy shot but after having worked on a range for 2 years, I believe there are other factors at play. For instance, when your bullet strikes the E type silhouette it sends a vibration throughout the plastic silhouette. This in turn moves the electric contact arm on a hit sensor located (in pairs, preferably) at the bottom edge of the target mounting bracket. These clip on, using a wire spring. It doesn't take long before the spring slips it's grip and allows the hit sensor to fall onto the base plate of the M31A1. When this happens, you are relying on just one hit sensor (still attached to the mounting bracket) ,or for that matter, NO hit sensor to register your hit. When the hit sensor functions, it closes a circuit that starts a 16 volt d.c. motor with a big, long screw attached to it's spindle. The screw moves an arm up or down. The target mounting bracket is attached to this arm. Anything that gets between this arm and the base plate of the M31A1 WILL GET CRUSHED. I have replaced countless hit sensors ruined by this arm. The maintenance guidelines are pretty strict (like guidelines for modifying just about any piece of equipment the Army owns). Anyway, it is not necessarily apparent when a hit sensor stops functioning. This can also be caused by the effects of exposure to the elements and my all time favorite, Mr. Squirrel. Initially, at least, the shooter gets credit for this in the form of a "missed" target. The only way to know for sure is to check each and every hit sensor (our range had 96 mechanisms on it's 16 lanes) after each firing order finishes. Well, that doesn't happen. Our standard drill was to call a cease fire if there was a problem noted, race out there with our mission-specific tool kit and swap out the offending M31A1 in it's entirety. This cut down-time to a minimum and we could then work on the mech in our shop as opposed to field conditions. When you remove the top cover of the mech you often find solid rust. Inside the mech is located about a gazillion circuits, contact switches, etc. Since the top plate is sealed with a rubber gasket, any moisture inside stays inside. The thing is air-tight. It continually condenses and vaporizes. Every time the sun rises or sets, the cycle starts over. We replaced a lot of components with stainless steel and we even tried dessicant bags. There's just not a lot of room inside one of those things. Additionally there are moving parts, so space is really at a premium. My advice: get permission from Range Control to walk the berms, checking for dangling hit sensors, cracked or otherwise broken silhouettes, loosely mounted silhouettes, silhouettes that look like lace and need to be retired, precariously mounted M31A1s (we had to place some of ours on stacks of pallets - which worked o.k. - in order to locate them at the proper height for engagement), and last but not least--frayed or otherwise unserviceable wires. Finally, have the Tower NCO raise and lower the targets about 50 times prior to the start of hostilities. They don't all work every time. Hope this helps.

P.S.: How about a little support fire onto the Atlantic Monthly objective. Thanks again!
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 10:47:53 (EDT) 

Mornin' "Girls" :)!!!

Nathan (New "Boot" Police Officer). Some unasked for advice from the "old school". I served as an LAPD patrol officer immediately upon my return from Viet Nam. I worked SWAT, mounted, and subversive intelligence. Since that time I have worked for state, county, and federal agencies and have watched law enforcement, like the military deteriorate in quality of personnel, and commensurately in their performance. You have chosen to enter an honorable craft -- it is NOT a profession. It is a craft requiring immense skill variance, judgement, intelligence, honor, courage, and integrity. Just as soldiers. To avoid overusing space on this site, I will offer you a couple of pieces of advice that I tried to impress on all of my "boots" as a training officer: 1)Your first duty is to "defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, both foreign and domestic, and to obey the LAWFUL orders of your superiors." (emphasis added). 2) The safety of citizens (as opposed to civilians) is first -- not your safety -- theirs; and that safety must include safety from your abuse of police power. 3) No career, retirement, or benefits are worth sacrificing or compromising in any way your honor or integrity in the performance of your duties.

"Hook 'em and book 'em" lad. Good luck. Be kind. Stay safe. Shoot straight. Speak the truth!

Some of the other LE types on here may disagree with the following advice Nathan. Leave that silly ass ASP in the car along with the PR-24. Go with a Koga 29" Straight Baton, and learn how to use the Koga Method. I have studied with Bob Koga since he was my defensive tactics instructior with the LAPD and I can attest to the effectiveness of the straight baton from many encounters and uses while I have witnessed the frequent failure of ASPs and PR-24s -- and straight batons as well. It comes down to training. There ain't no magic bullets out there. Policing, in its attempt to be "inclusive" and "diverse" has made the job more hazardous and less efficient for the street officer. But, it is your time in the mouth of the cat. Go forth prepared.
James R. Jarrett <>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 11:35:35 (EDT) 


I reviewed the Atlantic Monthly article by Larson (1993)and I think it is moot. The data has changed since his statistical sleight of hand (the use of raw numbers as opposed to rates)and he did not mention the use of advanced statistical methods such as stepwise regression or eigen values to account for the impact of other variables on the victimization by firearms. (Once a professor, always a professor :))

I did post a rather lengthy response yesterday in support of your thoughtful arguments, but some glitch occured and it disappeared into cyberspace and I just didn't want to reenter my comments. If you really feel it would help, I'll drop some H&I fire in there for you.

Interesting research by Grossman, et al concludes that anywhere television has been introduced, the homicide rate doubles within fifteen years.

Conversely, the homicide rate within the US has remained stable over the entire 20th century even as the supply of guns has dramatically increased. As you mentioned, we're talking about values. The progressive (liberal) only has rhetorical values without a solid grounding in the first principles set forth in antiquity. Feminism is a classic example of faulty scholarship, and values misinterpreted for agendas which do not contribute towards the peaceful and harmonious coexistance of humankind. The blame placed by statists on the inherent evil of inanimate objects merely supports their contention that given their values or lack thereof, human beings cannot be held accountable for their individual actions. With this recognition of the ideological abyss which separates us from them, there will be no rational debate, rather propaganda and psychological war for the "hearts and minds" of a people generally too concerned with nonissues or personal pleasure to concern themselves with such notions as liberty and principle.
James R. Jarrett <>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 11:56:06 (EDT) 

Paul and James,
I read the Atlantic Monthly as well and I think you are among the people that should post there. If it were in German I would let them have it as well, but I belive that since my english education stopt after High School and is not up too my german interlect it could give my words another meaning.
If you should think a forigners point of view worthy to include I will put in my 2 cents.

Torsten <>
Germany - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 13:23:54 (EDT) 

Thanks James! I think I'm wearing him down but he's still kicking. Any supportive input from third parties would only add weight to my argument. Was it Kalshnikov who said that quantity has a quality all it's own?
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 13:24:07 (EDT) 
Torsten: You are obviously an intelligent and worldly gentleman. This is evident in your thoughtful comments to the general membership of the Duty Roster page. I'm certain that you could offer a unique perspective on the issue that we Americans have not experienced. Anyone who would emphasize the discrepancies of your English grammar over the content of your ideas is an ass...and it's not like we native speakers never mmisppel werdz eether.

Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 13:35:00 (EDT) 


Absolutely submit something. Believe me, your English is better than my German. Shoe them that freedom is also understood and alive in countries believed by the average comotose American to be comprised of weak socialist statists. Exactly what the Barbara Boxer's, Feinsteins, Kennedy's, Gore's, and Clintonistas, ad nauseum in this country would like to have us believe.

Paul: I'll take another run at the Atlantic. Hope your wife's not mad at me. Rick called me an "insensitive clod." What a compliment!! OOrah!!

James R. Jarrett <>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 14:03:24 (EDT) 

Back on for a quickie

Rick: thanks for the tip on the 300 win mag barrel. Good input for how much I invest per barrel.

Gooch: I'll email you the job contacts. FWI: job hunting over 40 s***s. Have go for a nitch the college kids haven't found yet.

Russ on eye protection: YES YES YES...boy I got religion 2 weekends ago. I was target shooting with a buddy. He bought 1,000 of Israli surplus .308. only 40%? of the ammo was even detonating...what did fire was all over the target. he is normally very good. He was using a Rem 700 varmit. after he fired 1 round he turned to me and asked if he was ok. He had his glasses on (thank God)....he looked like he was sweating blood from nose/lips/cheeks/chin. the round exploded in the receiver...split the case from neck to primer....I MEAN SPLIT. all the hot gasses and case fragments came back out the bolt past the firing pin assembly and caught him full in the face.
2.)If you do buy mil surplus ammo...I'd disassemble the rounds...deprime and dump the powder...reload with new primers and new powder.

Butch: I have the same tactical scope on my 700 pss....I love it! That mildot works great.

Jim Craig: I was in Africa once....those buffalo are MEAN.
You have guts drawing on one of those.
Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 14:04:15 (EDT) 

Russell, I have a set of T-72 driving goggles, that actually work pretty good considering the price ($200) but I don't think they are suitable for anything other than driving a tank, the power source is heavy and bulky, and it buzzes. I don't know if all russian nite vision makes noise, but the US stuff doesn't and is quite a bit if I just had 2K to blow on a set of ITT NV goggles.
Rich <>
WA USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 14:14:30 (EDT) 

Fire mission accomplished!

James R. Jarrett <>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 14:49:06 (EDT) 

I have a second generation commie-Russian night vision scope, attaches easily to any Weaver type bases and has a pretty good illuminated reticle. Cost me about 250 bucks. It's a bit grainy compared to the nice US GEN III stuff of course, and it's ugly as sin but hey it's starlight and it is really nice to have in the field! And Rich this unit does not buzz.

Eye protection is really a good idea! When General Hatcher studied blown-up '03 rifles, he determined that most of the injuries to the shooters were slinters and the like to the hands and face, and that eye protection would have prevented the eye injuries which otherwise were the most serious.
When I got my last set of glasses (I'm a bit nearsighted) I requested and got an anti-reflection coating on the (polycarbonate) lenses. I had to ask; my eye doc had never mentioned that this option was available. The coating is subject to scratching so I keep that pair set aside most of the time as my "tactical" glasses.

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 15:02:15 (EDT) 

I would like for this rifle to be able to reach out to 900-1000 yrds. I was thinking that the 30-06 would be able to give the 308. bullet a little more get-up to reach these ranges without going to the 300 win-mag. Don't get me wrong, most shots will be fired at ranges between 50-500 yrds. I just wondered if the 30-06 would be a good comprmise between the 308win. and the 300win-mag. but I didn't hear of many shooters or tactical/sniper rifles chambered for it. I already have a Rem.700BDL action to make my rifle, I'm just haveing some problems planning this out on paper.
Thanks for responding, I can use all the help I can get from fine folks like yourself and others from this web site. GOD, it's good to see a web site for people like myself. THANKS!
D. West <>
orland park, Ill USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 16:00:15 (EDT) 

Your so right about the Koga method. I was a DT instructor when I was a State Trooper and that is what we tought, until the powers to be decided we needed a kinder and more humane method. We then went to the Lamb method which was not to bad but not nearly as effective as the Koga method. I also liked your comments to the "New Guy" you sound like someone I would have liked to have for a partner.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 16:11:06 (EDT) 

T Jeff A:

If you are interested in 6.5mm-08 perhaps you may want to consider 6.5mm-06.I believe it will fit the Rem 700 SA,but you'll have to check that out from your gunsmith.

My advise to you is to listen to what TorF,Torsten and Hexa have to say regarding 6.5mm combinations.These European gentelmen seem to really know their stuff about the 6.5mm.

By the way,a friend of mine recently built a 6.5mm-06 on a M98 action with a thumbhole sporter stock.He spent around $400 on the whole gun and the rifle is an absolute tack driver.He is averaging .5 inch groups using Lapua 140 gr. bullets.I believe he told me his speeds were in the 3100-3200 fps. range.

Has anyone out there tried Hornady's AMAX 6.5mm bullets yet? If so what results did you get?I'd like to try some out in my 6.5mm x 55mm but would like to hear what others have to report first.

I'm also curious why Andrew Webber doesn't contribute to articles or here on the Roster? His name and company come up quite frequently here in the Roster but yet we never hear anything from him.I know Andy from shooting at some of the local rifle ranges here in Nova Scotia and can tell you that his experience in shooting could bennefit those who visit this web site.

So Andrew, if you're out there in Cyber space checking out this page why not jump in and give us some of your observations on the matters discussed here on the Roster ?


Jeff Babineau <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 17:05:52 (EDT) 

D. West: While you are considering the fine old '06 cartridge, have you read the article on .308 vs .30-06 on this site? The url is (I hope this works, I'm going to try to plug in a proper link here....)
The '06 has some minor benefits over the .308, but you end up with heavier, more expensive ammo. It's no longer in the US military supply chain if that's an issue for you. You'll probably require a gun with a longer action. Brass selection will be more limited, you probably won't be able to use .308 ballistic cams, the list goes on... There are valid reasons the .308 is the "standard" of sniper rounds and the '06 is not. I still like the '06, but the only one left in my safe is my Garand and it's probably going to go .308 one of these days too!
Summary: The '06 will probably work fine, but the .308 is better.

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 17:13:34 (EDT) 

J Jarrett and Alex: Your dialog proves out the concept that not all members of a "group" are either for something or against it. You are dealing with individuals and their own personal emotions/agendas.

I have noticed that people that have an agenda like gun control (esp from that state below where I live) do not care about any facts (like exactly how many robberies have happened with assault rifles?).....THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND GUNS...DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND GUNS....ARE AFRAID OF GUNS....AND WANT ALL GUNS CONFISCATED. They are fellow human beings and contribute to society, but you will never understand them...they will never understand you. And that's as good as it gets. All you can do is vote and teach your children. You can't use arguements like " want to ban assault rifles....fine....lets also ban Lamborghinnis and AC one needs to go 180+mph and cars kill more people that guns do in this country". They just want us to give up our guns. (even if some have armed body guards)

Alex your comments were enlightening. I had to take a "valuing differences" course once. All big companies start programs like this to demonstrate that they are trying to do the right thing to stop sexual harassment. There were all types in the class. Some of the women would get mad at any insinuation (per their interpretation) that any man made about the differences between the sexes. Other women had very thick skins and told the feminists to take a chill.
I finally asked the instructor: "so how are we supposed to have meetings if we have to think about every word we say are we supposed to constantly walk on eggshells"
The answer was vague.
Jon Manley
Nashua, NH USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 17:42:08 (EDT) 

To James Jarrett: Sorry! "James" it is. (But who can blame a girl for getting confused? We have Russ, who signs his name as "Russell" -- just don't ever call him that!!! And I think there is a "Jim" floating around somewhere ....)

To Rick: I'll keep lurking. Testosterone is in way short supply where I am, so the more the better. Why do you think I visit this page, anyway??

To Jon Manley: Ah -- and that is the problem, isn't it? Eventually, nobody will be able to say anything without offending some interest group or other. So unless you stand your ground, you'll end up permanently cowering in a corner somewhere. Whenever someone gets uppity with me about political correctness issues I refer them to some old-fashioned advice: as Mr. Justice Holmes has written, "Even a dog knows the difference between being tripped over and being kicked." Thus, we as rational human beings ought to be able to discern when someone deliberately intends to offend (at which point one may feel free to reprimand them) or, as more often happens, when someone merely has a different perspective. It was quite clear to me that James meant no offense. Therefore, I felt it was stupid and pointless to persecute him. Unfortunately, this is not the prevailing view in today's society.......

Back to the shadows .......

Alex(andra) M.
Chicago, USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 18:33:04 (EDT) 

Terry: Valve grinding compound has jagged crystals. Brownells markets a bore lapping compound with rounded crystals. The jagged ones stick in the pores of the the metal and continue to cut. Supposedly the rounded ones clean up more thoroughly. Be really careful lapping your bore. This is a good way to ruin it. Maybe later we'll be discussing the possible merits of the .338/08.

James: We've got them on the run now. I'm recruiting support from some other "smart guys". Don't stop now...
The Original Insensitive Clod <>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 19:07:05 (EDT) 

I respectively submit that it is the rifle and the twist and the bullet design and the powder and the primer more than the number stamped on the head of the cartridge. The 30-06 was not cool. Neither was the M-1 rifle after it's day was over (KOREA). Therefore it was replaced by the more sensible (as to weight and length) .308 designed to shoot the lighter .30 bullets. Some who claim the 30-06 is obsolete and inaccurate rush happily out to shoot their 300 win mags and expound of their virtue in spite of their shortcomings!

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 19:26:02 (EDT) 

To D. West:
I have a M70 win. target rifle in 308 it has a 26 inch Douglas barrel. My best long range loads use the 190 hpbt at 2525 f.p.s It groups around 1 inch at 200 yards (10 shots)
I also have a 1903A1 Springfield with nothing done to it except drilled at tapped for a 8x Unertal scope. This 30-06 wants to group around 2.5 inches at 200 yards but it takes about 3 shots for the barrel to warm up (cold barrel shots go about 1.5 minute high. My best longrange handloads push the 190 hpbt at 2550 f.p.s. I have fired both rifles at 1000 yards in competition on the same day many times. And both rifle have given me scores in the low 190's out of a possible 200 when the wind held steady. All I know for sure is that it is more fun to beat other shooters with the old Springfield that it is with a more modern looking gun.

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 20:02:39 (EDT) 

Paul: Rounds complete. Over. Let me know if you need a repeat, or want to adjust.
Matt <>
GA USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 20:39:49 (EDT) 
Hello again all, and particularly to Russell Taylor.
I am again seeking advice on working with my 25-06 Savage 110FP, I have found that the front of the stock bears on the barrel if I put too much torque through the rear of the stock, I found this while shooting groups, a nice tight group (for me) .50" would turn into a 1 1/2"er with an inexplicable flyer. It wasn't till I was sitting at a bench scratching my head in puzzlement when I released my hold on the rifle and saw light appear down the side of the barrel.

I plan to machine the internal cross webbing of the stock out from just in front of the fore action bolt and place an alloy bar 1/4" thick and the width of the stock in with fibreglass to stiffen the foreend, if anybody has a better idea (apart from a whole new stock) please suggest it.

The other question is how do I bed the rifle action into the stock, what materials do I use, will the bedding "glue" the action into the stock, or in any case is it inadvisable to do so to a Savage stock?

PS. Thankyou to those who ended the .45 v 9mm v 40mm Grenade Launcher debate.
Dave Groves <>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 21:44:54 (EDT) 

thanks guys,,now i know what lapping is(both kinds)
and about gun rights: GUNS DON´T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE DO!!And if people dont use guns they tend to use something else.

straight shooting!!
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Iceland - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 22:59:43 (EDT) 

Matt: Shot, over. Thanks for the assist. I picked up the follow and support mission this time. I usually try to get the last word in if one of us hasn't for the day. Everybody feel free to just slam this idiot.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, July 16, 1998 at 23:11:27 (EDT) 
To Dave Groves:

If you had the older "no pillar" version of the Savage stock, I'd tell you NOT to bother glass bedding the thing. It is essentially a hollow shell of a stock, which would require gallons and gallons (only a "slight" exaggeration) of bedding compound to do any good.

However... with the newer models, you have "some" hope, if you're intent on "improving" versus "replacing." Use a 'D' cell battery and a piece of heavy-grit sandpaper ('60' would do the work in very short order) and stroke along the barrel channel until you get the desired amount of relief between barrel and stock.

As for bedding compound, well, I tend to shoot "heavy" stuff, so bedding is VERY important to me. I like the ACRA-GLAS that Brownells sells... and I prefer the gel version, WITH stainless steel added for strength. Also, many shooters prefer Devcon. (It's either Devcon, or something else that is used, that you will find in marine -- as in "water," not leatherneck -- stores. "Devcon" IS the name of one product, though... I just can't remember if it's the marine product I'm thinking of.) Ask around, talk to your gunsmith. Otherwise, if your labor and work is going to tally up to about $200 or more, you might as well spring for a McMillan A-2 Tactical stock -- which you'll still want to "bed."

As long as it's the newer stock version, you have some options before you need to worry about replacing the stock. And, my 110FV in .223 Remington, with the older stock, and NOTHING done to it, has nailed prairie dogs at 550 yards (with my handloads). And the barrel is NOT free-floated. Go figure.

To Haraldur: You're quite right -- without guns handy, people find all SORTS of other things to kill with... hands, screwdrivers, pliers, hatchets, BAYONET LUGS....
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 01:57:29 (EDT) 

Torpedo is in the Water !
Torsten <>
Germany - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 02:51:31 (EDT) 
Dave - My Savage 110FP has the pillared stock and I free-floated the barrel in a method similar to what Russell described. However, I used a wood dowel just slightly larger in diameter than my barrel and used self-adhesive sandpaper in varied grits to float the barrel about 1/8" from the stock. Now no matter my bolt torque or whether I'm using the bipod or another rest, the barrell never touches the stock. Oh, by the way, I droped my groups to 1/2 to 3/4 moa at 200 yards after floating.

Torsten - I have learned a great deal from your commentary. Please don't concern yourself with your use of English. Hell I wish I could speak German as good as you speak English!

See Ya Downrange
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 06:30:16 (EDT) 

Jeff A:
6.5 Matter. If you want to try out a super long range 6.5, consider the 6.5 x 300 Wby. It may be a little over-bore, but if you use a slow burning powder such as H-870 or the similar equivalent, with a 140 Sierra HPBT Match bullet, ZOW-Whee it is fast and accurate.

Al Ostapowicz <>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 07:29:49 (EDT) 


On your question of the 30-06 over a 308, I have two 308s. One with a 25" Hart barrel and one with a 24" Schneider barrel. Both these rifles are shooting 168 sierras
at 2800 to 2850fps. Iam useing 45gr. of Varget in both LC-90 match and Lapua cases. I have a new 3.5X10 Lepuold long range with the BC cams and I use the one for a 30-06 with a 180gr. bullet,enough said, no advantage to an 06. Hope this helps.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 09:29:25 (EDT) 

Another method for opening up a barrel channel that I have found useful: Purchase both sets of scope ring lapping tools from Sinclear. They come in both 1" and 30mm and run about $15.00 US. You can use them to lap your scope rings of course, but I find them excellent for the barrel channel. They are about 6 inches in length so you cut a fair amount of stock material with each pass. I wrap them in sandpaper, self adhesive or not depending on what I have in stock. They make the job go fairly fast.

Rick: The .308 v 30-06 smacks of the 9mm v 45 debate, but is more appropriate for this page. Personally I do not believe you have any advantage in the 30-06 until you choose to shoot bullets in excess of 200 grains. For your tactical rifle, the .308 is probably the better choice. If you wish your bullets to remain stable to 1000 yards, just be sure to acquire a barrel with a twist rate appropriate to the 175 grain bullet. The 168 MKs will serve you well, but odd things happen out around 700-900 yards depending on atmospheric conditions. They can fly quite straight, but generally drop below the speed of sound at that range. The 175 MK should stay super sonic right to 1000 yards and beyond. This eliminates one variable (transonic instaiblity or what ever you want to call it) that causes flyers at those ranges. Going to an -06 will not really net you any advantage, and has some small disadvantages: more empty space in case, harder to find brass, more powder for a marginal increase in velocity, expensive brass, and possibly a less than optimum case design (arguable). The .308 case is said to create better internal ballistics, but I'd be hard pressed to prove it to you, as I do not completley understand the effects of the shoulder angle, powder column burn et cetera. At any rate, you can not go wrong with a quality .308 barrel. The is perfectly capable of getting you to 1000 yards with out the beating one excepts from the .300 WM.
Scott Powers <>
USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 15:01:10 (EDT) 

Right, it is Emporium cleanup time again.


Posted by Jeff A. on July 05, 1998 at 00:10:59:

I'm thinking of building a tactical style boltgun chambered for either a 6mmBR or 6.5mm08. I have an HS Precision stock devcon bedded for M700 SA. Am considering getting a secondhand M700 SA or M70 action w/ .308 boltface, having it trued, lapped etc. and installing a barrel to fit one of the above cartridges.

I would welcome any advice on how to preceed i.e. barrel twist for 140 gr bullet (Berger or Sierra); barrell lenght, barrel contour etc.

I'm new to this so any help would be appreciated.


Jeff A. "Preying Mantis"

And the following follow-ups were posted:


Posted by Sean on July 16, 1998 at 09:58:05:

I would just like to know if anyone has been to Thunder Ridge sniper school before and how hard is it to get selected for a course.Also I would like to know approx.price for a course and how I can apply and when I can apply.


That's all for now.


  Interesting link to a Russian page on the Afghanistan War.
Condor <>
Out of Site, Out of Range USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 17:54:10 (EDT) 
TorF, Al, & Jeff:

Many thanks for all the input on the 6.5mm !!! It was close to sensory overload. And sensory overload can be great fun. Really, I do appreciate it.

Anybody out there have any experience w/ 6.5mm/284? Velocities, optimum barrel lenght, loads-stuff like that?

I noticed some reference to lapping and fire lapping in the Roster. I tried fire lapping recently on a M700 PSS in 300WM on the factory barrel. Just the standard sequence w/ the lapping cpds. I do believe it worked. Don't have a borescope so I stuck a Qtip approx. 1/4 to 1/2 inch in the muzzle under a light. It looked like a mirror. Cleaning time is greatly reduced and so far I've found three loads that hold 1/2 MOA out to 300 yd: 70.0 gr N560 behind a molyed Berger 190 VLD-very nice; 74gr IMR 7828 using a Berger 210VLD- a little more "thump" but on the money; Sierra 190 MK on 69.5gr N160. The Bergers just touch the lans; the Sierras 0.010" off. All excellent " squirrel " loads. I need more range for testing.

Russell Taylor: Sir, you're more than welcome.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 19:55:55 (EDT) 

Open Question and I hope some good feedback. What type bedding compound /pillar compound works best ?? Do you use the Acraglas , Devcon w/ steel powder, Marine-Tex, or Devcon w/ Titanium ??? Which over what and why ?? Have heard some pro's and con's about most and being in a high humidity climate am wondering which would do the best. Cost does factor into this! This is not a duty piece but my own equipment and does get somewhat used more so than a normal range/target rifle. Rifle in question is a Rem. 700 V Lam. in .308.
I will be solid pillaring rather than buying the "store bought" pillars. Thanks !!

Will <>
Somewhere in the South, USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 20:57:35 (EDT) 

Big Ed - YES Fragile, about time you got up with the times! Now all we have to do is get Mr. Bain to jump aboard and leave that sinking ship called the M21!!! :-)

Pat, and Scott - I'm not really sure I understand your posts. I didn't ask anything on the 308 vs 30.06.

Torsten - Used the IR Chem Lites in El Sal in 1982. They work quite well. Since the "people's army", who decided I was a war criminal, didn't have NVDs, they never knew what hit them or how. I never did figure out how they got my middle name to put on the death warrant.

As far as NVDs go, try just the day optics in most situations. You may be pleasantly surprised. I have used the M3A until well past EENT on clear nights, and even slight artificial illumination is well enhanced by most modern optic. This solution also negates the problem of flare caused by over powering light at night. As far as best NVDs, you get what you pay for, but if you can live with the Russian stuff, it is better than nothing. ITT, Night Vision Labs, SIMRAD, and Litton, all make excellent NVDs. However you will pay through the nose. The newest SIMRAD costs about 6000 dollars. That's several realy good rifles!! If you do get a clip on as the SIMRAD, then be sure you have a variable scope. 10x overpowers the Phosphrous Matrix in the clip ons and causes blurring. Positive ID is next to impossible. Go to 6 - 8 power and you can ID out to about 150.

For the next points of thought - Assuming both are equally trained, should the shooter or the spotter be the "experienced" sniper, and should you dial wind or "hold" for wind? This should be fun. Gooch where are you when I need you?

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 21:13:41 (EDT) 

Re: abandoning the M21/M25. Never, Rick. Never. I don't look at it as an antiquated system in need of substantial maintenance, but a means of employing gunsmiths who might otherwise be out of work.


Mr. Bain <>
Anything, but an SR-25 or a Savage, USA - Friday, July 17, 1998 at 21:35:08 (EDT) 

O.K. Pat, Scott, Rick didn't ask any questions on the 308 vs 30-06, I did. He was answering MY question. I didn't mean to start anything such as the 9mm vs 45ACP garbage, I have a Rem.700 BDL 30-06 on hand to make my tactical/sniper project rifle with and wondered if the 30-06 would be a good round to use sence it is a 308 bullet, I thought that the extra powder would give it more get-up to reach down range. Hey, if you don't know-ASK. I do thank everyone who responded and for your help.
AL, I'll get back to you with some of my questions about this project and I won't bug you too much about it, just some. Thanks AL.
D. West <>
Orlandpark, Ill USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 00:22:04 (EDT) 
OK I've got two that should start a "little" conversation! First off how many of you (in the US) have participated in the CMP Program and have the venerable old M-1! Seeing how the $400 price tag will TRUELY stretch my weapons budget for the they worth it?? (of course they are but you'all get my drift). Would liked to have been in the lottery for the M-1D's the first of this year but hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20! And now the REAL question: What is the best way to learn to use a mil-dot reticle? Yes Scott, I still have your e-mails on that to Russ, but is there a SIMPLE way to get use to using it?? I'm still new to this type of scope and not real comfortable that I can use it to it's fullest as D.West said in his post...if you don't know ASK! I'm asking!!! Post and/or e-mail I'm sure others have the same problem. And as a old professor of mine said 'the only dumb question is the one you DON'T ask'

Sarge <>
Roswell, NM USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 01:52:55 (EDT) 

To Rick: "For the next points of thought - Assuming both are equally trained, should the shooter or the spotter be the "experienced" sniper, and should you dial wind or "hold" for wind? This should be fun. Gooch where are you when I need you?" Oh, Rick, Rick, Rick... YOU are an EVIL man!!! Jesus H. Christ (spoken in R. Lee Ermey style), this will keep the lads busy for MONTHS! (Sure wish I could have been your partner in ‘82 -- would have been my kind of fun.)

To Mr. Bain: The gunsmiths of America thank you... and those like you.

To Sarge: Mr. Bain has the mil-dot article that was very briefly posted here a while back. He said he'd clean it up and repost it. Drop him a line to remind him. It's a good piece. As I recall, Rick Bowcher wrote it (following which I scrubbed it ruthlessly, as editors-in-chief always do), I posted it, and Mr. Bain wanted to modify it in some way.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 03:03:43 (EDT) 

Howdy Folks:
I still have several beta copies left our reloading program WinRELOADER. If anyone else would like to try an almost completed version of this simple to use, reloading program, dorp me a line on my e-mail and we'll get one out to you, and it won't cost you a dime. Yes Sir - Bob. Its for FREE!!
Alexander Ostapowicz <>
My Own Speck of Heaven, Ohio USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 07:20:15 (EDT) 
does that offer include "Krauts" ?
Torsten <>
Germany - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 10:56:25 (EDT) 
Paul, Jim, et al:

Massed the battalion on the A/M site this morning. Battalion, 6 rds, DPICM. We're getting inside his OODA loop now, boys! (I think the Army calls it something different, but you get my point.)
GA USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 11:27:01 (EDT) 

Amid those who are destined to die with a "too small" pistol clutched lovingly in their weak expectant little hands exists those who think the 30-06 and .308 are equal but I will try again. By the same logic the .243 and .244 6mm Remington are sameo sameo and .257 roberts and the 25-06 are equals. The 300 H&H and .300 win mag are equal in accuracy and impossible to separate of course so are .223 and .22-250.
.280/7mm express and 7mm-08 are after all not much different,.6.5x55 and the .264 mag are after all the same diameter so what the heck.
Bain: Your best post ever! Gunsmiths have to live too! All you Colt 1911 guys now are relevant! A heaven for custom gunsmiths!
Girls,women,broads,babes,mama's here's a quarter. Find a Gentleman like James Jarrett who cares! Sorry, ya'll, it's a bad day here on the plains! "A country boy WILL survive!"

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 14:57:33 (EDT) 

Sarge: I have two M-1s from the CMP program. One is so new it looks like it has never been fired, all of it is in perfect shape! The other is used but not too much, it's also perfect. I got the first before the price went up. I entered the M1D raffle, (as did my wife), but we didn't make it. A friend of mine did and his rifle looks new, fires really well. As for being worth the money, I'd say YES! If anyone out there is not in this program email me off list and I'll tell you how to join a club as an associate member for $25.00 a year and you can get a rifle. All of you active duty guys can also join and get an M-1 without firing for qual! We are also working on an M-14 program, please join!!!! (Sarge, BTW have you seen any aliens at Roswell???????

Bain: VERY FUNNY!!!!!! :-)

Russell: You are an EVIL man!!!!!!

All: My gunsmith loves me for who I am, not for the work I bring him! :-)

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 15:33:27 (EDT) 

D. West - On the Mil Dots, Email me and let me know how you want to use them. I'll Email you a response. Also let me know what type you have. The round military 3/4 moa dot or the 1/4 Mil football dot form Premier Reticule. The dots can be used for Ranging, holds for elevation, holds for wind call, (guess I just gave away my thoughts on one of my questions!), and leads for moving targets. But based on the fact that 1 Mil equals 3.375 moa you can see that 1/4 mil equals roughly 3/4 - 7/8 moa. I won't go into all of it here or Scott, Russ, Mr. Bain, etc. will have my hide!:)

Bill - Me thinks you were reading into a question asked, not a statement made. No one, to my knowledge, stated they were equal rounds. They most definitly are not equal. Each has strengths and weaknesses similar to all the other rounds you mentioned. But that is what keeps ammunition manufacturers in business.

Sarge - The program is excellent, but you take your chances. All the weapons that I have seen are fully functional and accurate enough for basic service rifle comp. Some show little to no wear, some have a lot of cosmetic problems but still shoot well.

Mr. Bain - You already use bolt guns, you're half way there!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 16:59:10 (EDT) 

To Paul - RE: M31A1. If it isn’t too late for you to get the word to folks still servicing this thing let me pass on a few things we do in ‘the real world’ regarding electronics in condensing atmospheres (i.e. Offshore platforms, and swampy areas subject to temperature inversion - the cause of condensation). 1.) Have them place a ‘breather’ on the bottom of the compartment containing the electronics. This can be a commercial thing supplied by any electrical supply house that sells explosion proof enclosures; cost ~$5. in stainless steel. OR, make their own by drilling a small hole in the bottom and put in some type of fitting with a piece of screen wire/mesh to keep the bug/spiders/bees/etc. out 2.) Since the units run on DC, have them put several small flashlight bulbs wired in series and/or parallel to add heat to the interior of the enclosure. This allows the enclosure to ‘breath’ in and out eliminating containment of any moisture and the added heat eliminates condensation. NOTE: if this is to be done in an explosive atmosphere use the commercial device designed for the purpose, not the home-made one or you will kill someone.

Sorry if this is away from sniping, but I figured it had to do with the ‘trade’.

Butch <>
N'awlins, LA USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 21:09:14 (EDT) 

To james Jarrett,
sir to show you that I am indeed guilty of Jumping to conclusions regarding my attack on you regarding your term of "girls", I apologize to you and every other girl on this roster. For the gentlemen who also jumped to conclusions regarding my political nature: yes I am a liberal, but no I am not now or ever been associated with N.O.W organization. I believe in hard work and sweat and earning respect. I will have it no other way. Please do not think ill of my husband because of my nature. He does what he can and is a very good human being. I consider myself lucky.
Stacey headlee <don't want to say>
Ogden, Ks. USA - Saturday, July 18, 1998 at 23:30:10 (EDT) 
I interpreted Pat's comment that there was no advantage to a 30-06 to mean they must be the same or the 30-06 was less than the .308. There may be no advantage if points are given! Such as weigh etc. Anyway...carry on!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 00:10:38 (EDT) 
Marius: The Duty Roster loads too fast now. Waaaaaah!!!

Butch: I'll let them know. I'm sure it would work but I'm not sure the Army will let them drill holes in the base plates. It's definitely superior to what we've got now.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 06:20:03 (EDT) 

To All: I've recieved so much email concerning the CMP program that I'm gonna have to post the information here so that you can see it, (I'm old ya know) and don't type so well! First, I was wrong on the price, send $20.00, (not $25.00) in check or money order to "Riverside Gun Club, PO Box 335, Ramseur, NC 27316". This will make you an associate member and you can use the range, (which is outstanding with all kinds of shoots), and be qualified for a Garand from the CMP. Riverside is a CMP affilated club. If you are active duty you do not need to shoot to qualify for the Garands, if not you must shoot to qualify. Once you are a member you may buy all parts for Garands and 14s directly from the CMP. This includes never fired Lake City brass in 7.62 and 30.06. Stocks, clips, and all kinds of items. The $25.00 a year is more than worth the price! As of this time you can get one Garand per year. Please join this club or one near you that is affliated with the CMP so we can keep these fine weapons from the smasher! We are alos working through congress to have M14s made semi auto so they can be sold also.

Out here
Big Ed <>
USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 08:13:35 (EDT) 

Told you I was old! The price is $20.00, not $25.00!!!!!
Sorry....... Please join, it's more than worth the time and money!

Out again

Big Ed <>
USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 08:15:53 (EDT) 

Russ and everyone !
here are some links you might find worth adding to the links page: (our FBI) ( technology and procurement office)
all sites are available in english.
Germany - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 13:30:42 (EDT) 
Are any "official" type of U.S. military inter-service sniper competitions ever held?

If so, who wins, given uniformity of calibers, etc.?
USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 14:00:24 (EDT) 

I would like some information on sniping and camoflage if somebody would e-mail me with some informnation I would be grateful,
Al_hackem <>
Waltham, N.E. Lincs UK - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 14:08:09 (EDT) 
Scott - Yes to your question on official sniper compition. The 18th Airborne Corps runs one every summer, if the 82nd isn't already engaged outside the US. The National Guard Units run several a year. SPECOPs run a couple of different comps a year, again if we are not otherwise engaged. Have Mr. Bain checck through his sources on a possible comp in Dec with 10th SGF(A). Got cancelled last year due to "things" beyond some peoples control. Winners range from Secret Service to invited local Law agencies to National Guard Units, to even us ever so often. As far as uniformity of calibers, not so. As stated we get all manner of competitors at SPEC OPs Comps. As far as 18th Corp, the comp is tooth and nail. The winning team EARNs their win.

Alex, how can testostrone be in short supply in Chicago? Inquiring minds want to know. Actually just this dirty old man.

Al Hackem - That's a mighty "large order" on your request. Can you narrow down your question on sniping, ie weapons, optics, range estimation, effects of the environment, selecting lines of stalk, stalking, ballistics and their effects on calculating a first round hit probability, mission planning, employment, deployment.... Guess I beat that one up enough. Email me and let me know what areas you are interested in and I'll see what I can do.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 17:45:10 (EDT) 

I think I have the old style stock so I will just attempt to improve on what I've got.

To Russell, Scott and Brent, Thanks for the tips on how to open up the stock, I will sand it out till I have 1/8" clearance all round.

Dave Groves <>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 19:45:50 (EDT) 

Most of the time i'm on an even keel. I go to work, and take care of my family. But occationally some drops a horsefly in my drawers. I have heard rumblings in Sniper Country that, at times, we are visited by people who do not understand, nor do they want to understand, our feelings about firearms.
First, this is my position about these individuals. I'm 48 years old, have two great daughters which I sent through college. I love my wife dearly, even more than the day I married her. Sounds pretty normal? Well, there are people out there who do not carre one iota about this. They see me, and everyone who dabbles with firearms , as a potential killer, assassin, or murderer. I imagine for this day and time, this is known as being politically correct. But let me assure you that this is the way I reel about YOU! You method is much more devious and comtemptous, because you do it by skirting the real issues by trying to sensationalize your position i.e. how wrong it is to use or own a handgun, rifle, or shotgun.

You are the type of individual who tries to force your misguided ideas and beliefs on other people by means such as print, mass media,and the courts. The name for you and your type is "Captains of the World", trying to control all facets of another person;s life. Please realize that there are intelligent, free thinking people out there, who may not agree or believe in your agenda. I HAPPEN TO BE ONE OF THEM! I am a rational individual and do not nee to be told what to think. I live by my own set of beliefs and guildlines.

So, do us a favor and go back to your liberal web pages and banter us gun users around with your liberal-thinking, closed-minded "politically correct allies. I'm sure there are plenty out there. We do not need your viditations or your comments. So what do you say, al you "Captains of the World"? Try telling each other what to do, if any of you will listen to each other.
Alexander Ostapowicz <>
Mad in Mantua, Ohio USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 20:07:50 (EDT) 

By the way, my second point is, that you sit and berate individuals who are out there protecting you and your ideals. You sit there in all of your self-righteousness, formulating judgements on"deadly force" issues and criticize sniper use.

Police and military snipers are the best in their field. If you think they are on the edge, or a time bomb waiting to happen, you have been watching too much TV (the same place you get all of your liberal ideas). Snipers are dedicated professionals who are "the best in the world." Ther are very, very few people who can make a claim like this in any undertaking they attempt. "BEST IN THE WORLD!" These people are the ones who maintain a cold composure when a terror stricken child is help hostage, or a crying wailing woman is begging for her life, or protecting the President of the United States.

You mease what a sniper (or anyone who carries a firearm) does as the destruction of life, killing of a human being. BUt try looking at this from a different perspective. Now, I know this may be difficult for you to do. Consider the innocent lives which are spared, the reunited families that can go on together; because the act of a true professional. The person who saved their life is - "the Best in the World, and I'm damn proud to associate with such people.
Alexander Ostapowicz <>
Mad in Mantua II, Ohio USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 20:17:25 (EDT) 


Thanks for the comeback on the military sniper comps.

On that subject, do these comps, especially ones that may mix military scouts and civilian LE shooters, become basically target practice, or do the participants get to do some sneaks with g suits.

I'm inclined to think LE snipers may be at a disadvantage regarding doing really open sneaks, unless they were military trained in a previous life. Is this the case or no?

USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 20:24:39 (EDT) 


I do suggest you read the previous post in the Sniper country articles on the mil-dot. Next, go to a known distance range and set out some known dimension targets. Get some that replicate a man or half a man and a head for example. Then simply get familiar with what the target and your dots look like viewed together. It takes some expeerience measuring the number of dots or fractions of a dot. Once you can do that, then you can use the formula to get range. target size( in yds or meters, or a fraction of them) times 1,000 divided by the number of mil-dots will equal the range. Practice getting that measurment then use the data to dial in your elevation. Keep a log and see how well your "ranging" works out. For movers, I use as a rule of thumb, 2 mil-dots windage for a walker and 3 for a jogger at about any range.

James- Have we ever met? you B-52, me B-36. I too am Koga certified. We worked out at the Japanese school on Mott St. in Boyle Heights above Little Toyko. I taught Kenjitsu at the old Chuo Gakkuen there.I agree on the use of the straight stick. It is much more versatile and doesn't limit your choices of tactic.

back into the light
Jim Craig
Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Sunday, July 19, 1998 at 22:09:06 (EDT) 

Rick: As I originlally understood it, you ANSWERED the guy asking about the 30-06v308, not the other way around. Sorry for the confusion. I'll reiterate the point though, for the person that asked: There is no advantage in choosing a 30-06 over the .308 in for a tactical rifle, and in some cases, a disadvantage. If you want more power, range, or flatter ballistics, you have to do as Rick said and move up to a .300 WM.

Rick: On your question about holds - I'll bite! My own view is that IF you have TIME, ALWAYS dial in scope dope. Having done quite a bit of "hold" shooting or "kentucky" windage over the years, I have found that connecting on the first shot is sometimes marginal. That is not to say that it doesn't work, but I found that my shot to hit ratio went up dramatically simply by dialing in the range and wind. Once you have plotted several Target Reference Points, adjusting dope for a target based on its relationship to these plotted points is easy. On the other hand, if the target is moving right from the start and he or it has not appeared near a pre-designated TRP, I guess a hold is the only option.

I liked your question a lot as it comes up quite often among long rang shooters. Some use a 100 yard zero and dial up. Others I know use a 600 yard zero and never touch the scope, utilizing hold for everything. As in everything, how you train seems to settle the issue at a dead draw. Those shooters using a 600 or 700 yard zero seem just as effective as those using a BDC. This is assuming they practice enough.

On the subject of who should shoot among two equally skilled men or women. If you are refering to a sniper observer team, Trade off after an hour or two. Keeps everyone fresh. Avoids eye strain. If you are refering to two cops, spaced apart in equally good hides with equally good view of the perp, both on their own rifles, things become more complicated. In the end I guess it wouldn't matter as they are both skilled. I suppose they'd have to work it out prior to the op. Lets hear your ideas! I am sure they will be enlightening! How about you Gooch? You back from playing up North? Weigh in here.
Scott Powers <>
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 08:08:21 (EDT) 

Far as power and velocity 30-06 vs,308. Hornady shows avg. max for 30-06 168 gr. bt at 3000fps. .308 comes in @ 2700fps. 300 win mag. 3200 fps.Lyman shows similar results at smaller velocities they consider maximum. Run that through your bal program at 800 yards and come back to class. 308 is a good round don't give up on me, real nice MG round and possibly even easier to run through a semi auto. Lighter to carry and probably a better Military round. But... 200 fps is 200fps. It's even more for a handloader. While your at it try a 190 gr. boattail in there and look at 800 yards or so.
I am not jaded on the matter cause I shoot all three and have a great affection for them all. but......Given the same rifle and proper twist.....
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 08:38:31 (EDT) 

Sorry for the missed post!! I had read your post and had forgot you were answering not asking. We had better be careful or we could start another 9mm-45 debate. I also agree that the 06 is a great round and with a heaver bullet it would have the edge over a 308. I was trying to say that with the new powders out there you can reach 06 velocity with the 308. (With the lighter bullets)

I would love to set down with you and have you explain the Mil-Dot system to me when I get to the shoot in Wyoming, if you have the time.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 09:43:17 (EDT) 

I am a strong beliver of the good old 8x57IS and would choose it in a K98 rather than a 30-06 any day. The .30 cal bullet selection is a lot better though so I´ll stick with my 7,62x51.
If you would own a Ferrari it would be red, a 1911 should be in .45ACP,a Luger P08 in 9x19, a K98 in 8x57, but what would be your Match for the 30-06 and .308 ??
Germany - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 10:48:15 (EDT) 
Just thought I'd drop a line from Okinawa and let ya'll know we appreciate your hard work, Cpl.Prewitt,1st BN 3rd MAR STA plt.
Corporal Prewitt <>
MCBH Kaneohe Bay, HI. USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 12:29:53 (EDT) 
Rick: It's not just Chicago. Testosterone is apparently in short supply everywhere. If it weren't, why do all these men suddenly need Viagra? Actually, I'm sure there's probably a higher concentration of the stuff down on the South side of the city, but where I'm at I'm surrounded by a bunch of Steve Forbes-type mamma's boys (of which there seem to be an ever-increasing number in this country .....).
Chicago, USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 12:57:16 (EDT) 
To Bill Rodgers:
Bill,it's true that the 30-06 has a slight edge on velocity but the .308 has a slight edge on accuracy.For snipers the accuracy is obviously more important.How many 30-06s win 1000 yard matches against .308s? There is no comparison.
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 13:15:26 (EDT) 
I guess I don't share the fear of starting a debate about weapons on a sniper page. I really don't know enough Military accronymns to sound cool but, I fear that too much is rumored about the 30-06 not being accurate. Just trying to discourage that not because I am selling 06s but because I want to push facts. There was a time when 06s were just declared uncool and the military decided to change guns for a lot of reasons. The least being the accuracy of the cartridge. Every thing that glitters is not Military Brass by the way. Mil Snipers got their Ghillys from some Scottish game keepers, their rifles from Varmint hunters and their Scopes from some target shooters. And most of their snipers from the left overs from the last 2 above! Of course it is to their credit they finally recognized the importance of an accurate rifle, stealthily employed by a man who knows how to use it is a valuable weapon.
Take the 06 and put it in a modern gun like the Remingtons of today and see where it hits at 1000 yards. It wasn't the 308 that put the 30-06 out of the target business it was the 300 H&H. "Hell Elmer was there!"
I don't know Torf, I knew a guy named Carlos once who had a Model 70 he seemed to do OK with! I guess a Model 70 hvy barrel wouldn't be too bad if it was worked over a little.
Let the good times roll!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 13:46:06 (EDT) 
Bill: You seem to be making a bit of a leap in your arguments. When people say that the evidence points to the .308 being a little more accurate than the '06, you take this as saying that the '06 is not accurate, or that it's obsolete or uncool. But no one here has said any such thing.

The .308 seems to present several advantages over the .30-06. The '06 offers some advantages of its own over the .308... Both are good cartridges. I like the '06 and think it's cool and accurate and so on, but I still think the body of evidence that is out there gives the edge to the .308. Let me again remind you that this does NOT mean I am saying that the .30-06 is inaccurate or that .30-06 owners shoot like Democrats or anything.

Now if you have reasons why the .30-06 is a better choice for snipers than the .308, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons.

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 15:06:19 (EDT) 


1) Anyone have any experience with the D2 Stalker Ghillie Suit?

Jeff P. <>
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 15:08:48 (EDT) 

Jeff P.: You pose an interesting second question. Unfortunately, your questions infringes upon information that is classified, and we will not post such information on this site, nor allow it to be posted. Sorry. You'll have to go somewhere else for an answer to your question.

(( Editor-in-Chief's Note:  Jeff's second question has been removed.  This isn't a matter of "free speech," it's a matter of potentially releasing classified information via this website. ))  Date/Time:  20 Jul 98/1931 hours.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 16:12:48 (EDT) 

Scott - On the comp. They run a large gamut of shooting and fieldcraft skills. The weighting of the scores are such that any one event will not destroy your position. And don't think that those "fat donout eaters" can't stalk, run, and do all that other stuff. Two of my guys came back from the H&K sniper comp and were eaten alive by a local LEA team. Yes they did well in the miliary catagory, but that did not place them in first. Local LEA took first and I believe a National LEA agency took second. On holds, we use holds for elevation as an emergency only. That is why we use 1 moa adjustable elevation turrets. Only a few clecks and you're there. Wind and who spots I'll let run alittle longer for more comments.

Bill, Dave, Kodiak - I've used both 308 and 30.06 for sniping. I'll keep the 308. It has NOTHING to do with accuracy or the round or any other mythical nonsense. The 308 will cover the area I need covered with a lighter round using less powder for the same velocity. I'm not putting 190 gr whiz bangs out at 3000 feet per second. Some seem to forget that many rounds LOSE accuracy when shot too fast. I am interested in minimizing muzzel signature, and the 30.06 has a greater muzzel signature. This is the same reason we do not use muzzel brakes and "flash hiders". The night signature with a flash suppressor is unbelievable when seen through NVDs. If I need greater range then I will go to a 300 Win Mag pushing a 190 at 2900 fps. Again muzzel signature is important. Another consideration is that the increased powder of a 30.06 causes an increase in felt recoil, and when you are shooting about 100 rounds a day at targets that do not permit a full seating of the butt in the shoulder, ie head shots 200 meters, 3 second exposure over a seven meter front, that recoil difference will eat you up and your accuracy goes to hell in a hand basket. As stated earlier, each has strengths and weaknesses. Match the tool to the work.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 16:55:47 (EDT) 

Rick, Go the head of the class! Others please read Rick's post! Only through provacation can we arrive at gospel! Amen
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 18:26:11 (EDT) 
D2 has Nauga feathers inlaced with Penquin fleece. zap me Bain.
Bill <>
USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 18:32:20 (EDT) 

Hello! I guess that everyone has forgotten that the US Armed Forces switched to .308 from 30-06 mainly because it was NATO standard, not due to accuracy. Now that the armed forces are using it everyone seems to think it is the best, this is not necessarily so.
PS: I don't shoot either so I give a fair and impartial comment.

Jeff Cooper <>
Elvis, tn USA - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 22:00:37 (EDT) 

have been trying out the 550,with 168gr bullets, but haven´t gotten the accuracy I had with norma,but its still pretty good for hunting:)),i.e under 3/4 inch.
Have only worked up to 47gr, and the listed max is 47,37gr. If you try it let me know how it works out.

straight shooting!!
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Iceland - Monday, July 20, 1998 at 23:49:22 (EDT) 

To Sarge: On the mil-dot question, I feel that there's no easy way to use the mil-dots until you learn to work in meters, instead of yards. This is why the arty-guys (who happen to have been the first mil-users) work out everything in meters. However, my opinion could be somewhat biased due to the fact that I'm european....

To all: Does anyone (Torsten, Thor?) know of a company in Europe that does the Cryo job? Would be cool! (yes I know, pun intended...) What's involved in the Cryo treatment? Is it merely cooling the barrel to -300 and getting it back up, or is there more to this kind of stress relief?

Okay, now for the good one! Someone just GAVE me 1 Lb. (as in one pound) of fine grade Moly !!!!!! (Sorry guys, I just had to tell you this was for free!!! ) Now, of course, I am only to eager to get it on my bullets, question is, HOW? I read a lot of info here, but nobody says how and when to use what for what reason. Let's have the full instructions! Questions I'd like to see answered are: do I use some sort of adhesive (wax etc.), how long should I tumble, how much moly do I use for 100 bullets, what media in what quantitiy should do the job and so forth... Whatever way you answer, through this roster or my e-mail, just know that I'm listening!


L8er, guys!
Stefan <>
Here, There The Netherlands - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 00:30:18 (EDT) 


YES! "Match the gun to the work." I'm OFTEN asked "Gee whiz, gosh, Russ... how many guns do you have?" Then I "try" to go through the inventory. Then they INVARIABLY ask "Why do you need so 'many' guns???" After attempting to suppress the urge to strangle them... I explain that each gun I have has a specific purpose. For example... the 110FP Tactical is for "up to" 600-yard surgical work; the .416 Remington Magnum is for taking down anything on the face of the planet; the .338/378 Weatherby Magnum will be for 1500-yard work; the Mossberg 590 Persuader is for unwanted guests; the sporterized Enfield #4 Mk 1 is for deer hunting; and so on and so forth. I don't have anything that duplicates the purpose intended by something else I own. I'm always asked "What's the best rifle for...?" and I ask right back at them "What are you going to use it for?", along with questions about if they intend to handload, use optics, shoot it a lot per session or just "now and then," and other such questions. Bottomline, Rick, as you've said -- match the gun to the task at hand.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 00:37:01 (EDT) 

To Stefan... AND OTHERS!

The NECO (Nostalgia Enterprises Company) process for moly coating bullets is PATENTED! Please, to keep us here at Sniper Country from being sued for patent infringement, do NOT post the THE NECO PROCESS here on the Duty Roster!!! However, there are "other" alternatives to the NECO process, and I have NO problem with THEM being posted here. Stefan, check your E-mail, you'll have an answer to your question within just a few minutes of my posting this response.

Lest anyone think I'm being paranoid on this... I'm not. There's already some litigation underway, or has been (if it's over now), on unauthorized disclosure of this process. (Makes me wonder, though, when virtually the WHOLE process was published, step-by-step, in Precision Shooting a couple of years ago.) If you have questions about the NECO process, direct them to Roger Johnston at:

1316 67th Street
Emeryville CA 94608
(510) 450-0420
FAX: (510) 450-0420

Also, per Rod Regier's post to rec.guns dated 1997/10/09, note that NECO ran the following in the July 1997 issue of Precision Shooting magazine (and I remember reading this notice, by the way):

Attention Sellers of Molycoating Kits and Molycoated Bullets

The process of molycoating bullets, as protected by U.S. Patent
4,454,175, is owned by NECO (Nostalgia Enterprises Company). NECO
has become aware that there are a number of persons who are selling
molycoating kits and/or molycoated bullets which appear to infringe
its U.S. Patent or which, in order to avoid the patent, take
shortcuts or use materials in a way which produces shoddy and
substandard bullets.

Under the U.S. Patent laws, a license is required for making, selling,
offering for sale, or using, a patented invention, or for selling a
product using a patented process or for selling components in a kit
form which is intended for use in practicing a patented invention.
Doing any of these acts without authorization of the patent owner will
result in liability for damages which can include the patent owner's
lost profits and the patent owner's attorneys fees incurred in
enforcing the patent. In addition, the cost of defending against a
patent infringment lawsuit is typically hundreds of thousands of
dollars and can result in tremendous disruption of personal and
business time.

Shooters who want the unique benefits of the patented molycoating
process should get what they pay for, without being unknowingly
subjected to potential liability for damages for patent infringment.
Persons who wish to be licensed under the patent to sell molycoating
kits or bullets, and avoid any potential liability for infringement
of this patent, are encouraged to contact:
NECO, P.O. Box 427
Lafayette, CA
(510) 450-0420

This notice is provided in compliance with 35 USC 287


So, please be careful about the information that you ask for, or post, here on the Duty Roster.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 01:14:45 (EDT) 

that is, to get you right, not the d-2 stalker question that is classified ?

Russ, please mail the moly info as I believe that we had a writeup in a German Gun Mag. about a similar process.

3 days to go !

Germany - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 02:41:59 (EDT) 

Jeff P., Torsten, Bill, Stefan: Isn't having a lawyer around just a lot of fun?

Seriously, we are very careful here because we don't want to have happen, what occurred at Fulton Armory's site, nor do we want to harm our armed forces in any way.

As for .308 vs. .30-06, I think the evolution was as much the improved performance in match shooting as it was the adoption of 7.62 NATO. Just my opinion, I've not researched this issue. Yet.


Mr. Bain <>
Mumbo, Jumbo USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 02:59:16 (EDT) 

Well, it seems that EVERYBODY has something to say about the 308. vs 30-06. WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?
from the start, one question never really got touched. that is, what barrel twist would be best for 168-190gr. bullets from the 30-06? 1-11 maybe?
After this, how about we drop the whole thing and carry-on?
I can hardly wait to see what everyone has to say about about the differences between the H-S Precision, M-24 & the McMillan M40A1 stocks.
D. West <>
Orlandpark, Ill. USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 04:42:14 (EDT) 
98 World Championships, Barcelons, Spain.

US beat Norway by 2 points in 300m, 3 position (3X40 shots), free rifle!

Team, 3 shooters:

1. USA, 3476pts.( Dubis/1166, Tamas/1156, Goff/1154 )

2. Norway, 3474pts.( Royseth/1164, Knudsen/1162, Larsen/1148 )

3. France, 3468pts.

Close race.

Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 06:10:28 (EDT) 

To Bill Rogers.

I've never said a word about the 30-06 in this forum.

The only gun I've had in that cal. was a Browning 1919A4.

Got it on a saturday. Wanted to fire in at once. The only ammo I could get my hands on was Norma factory loaded with 180gr Nosler Partition. The most expensive 300round burst I've ever fired!
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 06:28:55 (EDT) 

To Stefan, re. Cryo.

Blaser thermally destresses matchbarrels.

Match/sniperrifles are made in Liechtenstein.

Ask them.
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 06:35:50 (EDT) 

Russ: Do you have the tactical flashlight on your 590? I put one on mine and I love it! It's kind of expensive but more than worth the cost. All in all I find it to be a very good weapon.

Bain: Check your e-mail please.

Gunny Rayfield: It shoots VERY well even though I'm old....

30.06, 7.62, both are fine but the big 50 rules!!!!

Out here.......

Come home Gooch!!!!!!
Big Ed <>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 08:18:18 (EDT) 

Sorry Mr.West! The one in 10 or 1 in 11 should be O.k.
for the heavier 30-06 rounds. Actually we have a resistance here to giving anyone any practical information. Mostly I want to provoke the dismenation of info and it's done sometimes by probing. Actually with the exception of Russ (who explodes when we talk about the (p....)taboo subject we're all pretty mild mannered.Russ will calm down with a few beers! But he probably still won't talk about "IT". Torf knows but sometimes he just won't talk! Without the electric things!And then there's those Accronymns! Whats a poor guy to do? Marius used to write but now he just archives... all day!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 08:47:22 (EDT) 
Great comeback on the 06 and the 308 debate!! I cant wait until we get into the stock debate(HA)

Another great comeback on why "WE" need so many different guns. I will copy your responce and tape it to my wife's refrigerator.

Thanks for the info on the 550 I have only used N-140 with 168s and Berger 175vlds. One gun really shot it well and the other one was only so,so. Have you tried VARGET yet?
I have used it with both LC-Match and Lapua cases and it has shot very well in all the 308s I've tried it in. You get the best of both worlds speed and accuracy. PS, for all you 06 guys it works great in them too.
God,I love this sight!! My kind of people.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 09:47:18 (EDT) 

LAUR: Just back from vacation...cannot get through on your
fax number. Maybe I'm not doing it right?? let me
know. Have info in hand. Joe
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.usa>
Kelso, wa USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 10:00:47 (EDT) 
that is good news, I just had a Molycote rep´s High Power in for some custom work. He promised some oil´s,greases, and a big can of Moly dust. I´ll let you know what I think of it when I get my hands clean again after painting some of the MK´s.

Hey, I bought a wind meter so now I can test the "thin Wind" in the Dolomites next week.

anything I can practise while in the mountains, other than ranging, and slope estimation ?

The summer has found Germany and my alergy is back.
Torsten <>
Sneeze, Wheeze Germany - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 10:14:15 (EDT) 

To Jeff Cooper:
Jeff, as I remember it the U.S military pushed for the .308 to become the NATO standard because it had almost the same power as the .30-06 but was shorter.Shorter rounds mean shorter actions which means increased reliability in semi and full auto weapons.The fact that soldiers could carry more ammo was a bonus.
Long range target shooters on the other hand don't care about what NATO uses.They use whatever wins.Several decades of target shooting has shown that the .308 has a SLIGHT edge in accuracy at long ranges over the .30-06. The .30-06 has a slighly higher velocity than the .308 but the .308 still has more than enough horsepower at 1000 yards to get the job done.
You can argue that other rounds may be better than the .308 but this discussion was between the .308 and the .30-06.
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 12:01:47 (EDT) 
Stocks: What items on the stock should I be looking for. A rail? Thumbhole? Fore-end shape? Adjustable butt? Adujustable cheek piece? McMillan, HS(don't have a number for them) or who.

Bipod: Harris(which) or BSquare(looks better in regard to not catching on stuff)

Sling: Which type or do I need one at all? Clip type that connects to the stock.

By the way in regard to wind speed. It is not the velocity of the particles but their effect and this is what I and apparently others have problems seperating. If at 30000ft the actual velocity of the wind is 30mph. There are less particles than at 30mph at sea-level. So a wind vane or a pressure differnce type sensor measures the effect. More particles binging a vanes blade causes it to turn faster at sea level. The force at 30mph obviously is less since less particles bing on the vanes. Thus the effect is different.

Wind meters read effects not actual velocity. Thus what is read by a wind meter is not the group velocity of the particles but a pressure differential, the same happens with flags, grass and paper.

So effects at sea are the same as those at higher altitudes. However the equations must compensate for the time of flight since it is reduced. If a trajectory program says the bullet moves left or right the same at 2 altitudes, it is suspect, given everything else is equal.

Tom <>
in, there USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 12:07:01 (EDT) 

Pat there is enough air in that 06 case to keep a mouse alive for a month when loaded the Varget but it shoots better than anything else I've ever tried. go figure!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 12:51:21 (EDT) 
Rick said, to great applause, "Match the tool to the job." to which I say amen, the .308 is a better sniper cartridge than the .30-06. So there. :)

.30-06 advantages: Good round. Commercially common in US. Can handle heavier bullets better than .308.

.308 advantages: Also a good round, offering similar performance. Commercially common in US and beyond. A standard military round on half the planet, including the US. Lighter weight. Slightly smaller rounds take up less space and allow shorter, lighter actions. Case capacity more optimal than '06. Less recoil. Commercial match ammo of highest quality available. Wider selection of quality brass available. Modern military ammo available which incorporates latest designs (Armor Piercing, Match, tracer, etc.). "Fresh" tracer ammo available. Considered the standard in the US with military and police snipers. Scope ballistic cams commonly available. Ballistic charts for various match/sniper loadings common. Generally less expensive commercially and when reloading. Much more commonly available in high grade sniper rifles, both commercial and custom. Probably has an accuracy advantage. More likely to provide sniper/spotter ammunition compatability if you consider that important.

Again I say that the '06 is a fine round, but for sniping the .308 is better. The tool has been matched to the job. (Stepping off soap box and crawling behind cover!)

Russ: How dare you bring up the 590! Do you want to see a 590 vs. 870 debate started? *shudder*

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 12:53:29 (EDT) 

Tom: This is my own opinion, which doesn’t amount for a lot I suppose, but if I had to choose between a Harris Bipod and a B-Square, there is only one real choice: The Harris. Yes, I hate the springs, and base and hook-up system too, but the Harris is a very stable system. Some of the B-square units I have seen can not even compare. Nor can the Versa-Pod I wrote about. The Harris locks down tight, does not wobble, and in the swivel model can be tightened enough to eliminate play completely. And to tell you the truth, I can not recall ever getting a Harris stuck on something in a stalk. This is partially from the way I hold the rifle, but it is not as bad as it looks. Also, it is relatively easy to remove (although nowhere near as easy as the Parker-Hale type Versa-pod) so you may just leave it off till needed.

308v30-06: Many years back (1960s) the 308 started winning in the nationals and many a competitor switched over to stay competitive. I am sure the military took notice of this. Also keep in mind the use in question. The few extra fps the 06 puts out is not needed for the intended purpose - sniping from 0 to 900 yards. The .308 can achieve this goal as readily, with slightly more accuracy, while weighing less, taking up less space, and burning more efficiently. The 06 on the other hand is ideal for hunting as you can load it up with heavier bullets and go spar with animals in the upper end of the American big game spectrum. In this it still rules the roost in America. My own experience with both rounds is that it has been far easier, and EXPECTED, to get sub moa accuracy with the .308 than with the 06 rifle of equal quality. This could result from, as Rick points out, the greater muzzle blast and felt recoil of the 06. That the .308 allows a short action doesn’t hurt either. If you need more power than a .308, move to a 300 Magnum.

Everyone, do not fear about commenting on the 308 v 06 v 6.5 v .50! That is the kind of thing this site is about. While pistol commentaries are OK, they are not the life blood of this site. Rifle accuracy on the other hand, is. So do not sweat it if you have a valid comment to add. Just try not to be as long winded as Russ and I!!! Cripes-a-mighty, you’d think we were…British!

Scott Powers <>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 12:56:46 (EDT) 

Has anyone read "Eric England: The Phantom of Phu Bai" and is it any good?

Also, I got a "slope doper"... Very well executed, a very nice unit. My only concern is that the sheet aluminum will get (literally) bent out of shape if kept in a pocket while going afield. Time will tell whether this concern is valid or not...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 13:27:50 (EDT) 

J. JARRETT/NATHAN Rule 1: Go home from work! I agree on your ideas on straight stick...but my asp works too. PR24
requires too much training and gets hung up on everything.
The asp is also a better blackberry chopper for S.O. types.
J. Reiss <>
Kelso, wa USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 13:32:23 (EDT) 
are you telling me that there is "thin Wind" after all ?
Russ are you reading this ?? !!
I can give you some thick wind ....... Hatschuuu.!
590 VS 870,
the Mossberg is already the only Mil Spec. Shotgun out there that has a resonable price.
Also Mossberg will be the leader in Shotgun development starting this fall. (Russ, you know what I mean) With the first real innovation this century.

Germany - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 14:00:35 (EDT) 

Torsten: No no no no.... Don't start the shotgun debate, I don't think it's really Sniper Country material. I have a 590 "semi-milspec" shotgun and will be selling it... "First real innovation"? You don't think there have been any others this century? Wait, nevermind, don't answer that, do it offline if you want, Russ is probably ranging us as we speak...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 14:33:30 (EDT) 

Pat:Varget is not imported to Iceland yet, but I cant wait to get my hands on it.
I have been pestering every gun and reloading supplier about it, so it should arrive soon,he he:)
And about the 308,-06 debate,,my friend has a 30-06 and he says its THE BEST GUN on the face of the planet, however I don´t agree, i like my 308 more,but then he likes brunettes but I go for the redhaired girls:))
Go figure,,its a matter of taste I guess..

straight shooting!!!!
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Iceland - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 15:06:33 (EDT) 

Torsten, without a doubt air is thinner due to temps. altitude, and humidity. All play a roll. But it is the term wind that is un appropriately applied to the the magnitude of the airs velocity. But all measurement and site tools like grass are based on pressure that is applied by airs motion not it's velocity.
tom <>
once a, day in the USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 15:11:28 (EDT) 
As in sooooo many things related to firearms, the answer depends on the question. What will the weapon be used for? by whom? under what conditions? If the weapon is for personal use by one individual, the adjustable length fo pull and cheek piece are just more dollars, and more weight and another gadget on the rifle. Yes you do need to fit your weapon, but get your stock fitted by your gunsmith for pull length then have a cheek piece fitted to get proper head heigth and eye alingment with the scope. Your firearm will weigh less and cost less and be truly personal. There are other considerations such as multiple users, winter clothing etc that must be factored. If possible fit the weapon to you, don't rely on gadgets to do it.

Thin wind-
I went to Marksmanship Training before some of you were borm so i amy be a dinosaur in regard to current philosphy but I do try to stay current. In any event, my first team leader always had an answer when I would ask him what dope to put on my rifle. He would say, "son, what does your log book say for your weapon on a day like this?
He could give me his dope, or he could give me his wisdom, but what would it have meant for my eyes on my weapon? Folks there is no magic dope. Each rilfe has its own personality. Each likes something a little different. If you want to use your firing line mates dope, then why not just save your ammo and record his score? PRACTICE, Record the results and constantly reevaluate, and PRACTICE again. I know an old boy that uses a sporterized Gustav barreled Mauser in 6.5 Swede with a fixed power simple cross-hair scope that will beat most any of you out here to a 1,000 yds. Of course he has put about 20,00 rds through that barrel and is ready to re-barrel it now. It shoots 3/8", but so does he.

Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 17:28:22 (EDT) 

Eugene: I got your check and will forward it to the Hathcock's. I tried mailing you but the letter keeps bouncing. Shirts are out of stock. Sorry!
scott powers
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 17:45:10 (EDT) 
How about taking a 30-06 sendero and rebarrel it to .308
Shoot for groups and then rechamber the same barrel to 30-06
same bullets and adjusted charges of powder varget probably?
Could we expect the accuracy to show a difference. It wonder?
I predict the bipod debate won't last very long! Harris is king.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 18:30:19 (EDT) 
Seems like what I send doesn't have any interest to others on this list except for the information concerning the CMP program so I'll depart the AO. Bain and all of the others that make this site work, keep up the good work, we need a site like this. Gooch, Gunny Rayfield, I'll see you in e-mail.

Out here
Old Ed <>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 19:03:42 (EDT) 

I want to thank everyone on the advice that they have given me over the soon-to-be cop job. It looks like I will be getting some sort of straight baton if I decide to get one. The department recommended that I NOT get an ASP, for they said that I would do nothing but tear it up in training. They said that I am not required to carry a baton for duty, but if I decide to do so, then they want me to carry a "positive lock" type. I went to Tulsa the day of my physical and checked one out. Ugh!!! This thing cost 55 bucks and felt cheap and shaky on the end. I hated it! Then I picked up an ASP and it felt nice and solid and balanced. Oh, well, I'm just the rookie, what do I know?
I ordered a Glock .40 cal with night sights. I think the SIG site or something had a list of one-shot stoppages with this round, with the lighter bullets being around 90% and better. COR-BON in 135 gr. is looking promising right now.

What is everyones opinion on thumbhole style stocks? I have one on my custom 10-22 and love it, but is it suitable for higher calibers? Will it give you problems with your palms in .308 or higher caliber? Pros? Cons? It is VERY comfortable to me and I also find it personally aesthetically and ergonomically pleasing.
Illegitemum non carborundum and good shooting,

Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 19:08:16 (EDT) 

To Rick: (To click or hold wind)
I sort of think that this is a trick question but here goes. One does not get to call himself a sniper unless one passes the course. One does not pass the course unless one is adept at taking instructions, accepting coaching and learning a few skills. Therefore if one finds himself in a genuine Marine sniper school and wishes to pass the course, the instructor says hold for wind and the recruit says "Aye Aye sir!" If on the other hand one finds himself at one of those Army wanna-be classes clicking is the order of the day.
As far as who should shoot and who should spot. Each guy should be doing what he does best. If one guy is clearly superior in both shooting and wind-doping then he gets to do whatever he feels like doing and the remaining partner should keep his eyes and ears and log-book wide open and his pencil sharp.
My apology in advance if this was not a trick question, and my vote goes for clicking, at least for the first shot. But what do I know?
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 19:38:55 (EDT) 
Ed. You didn't expect me to take on your .50 with this 30-06
did you? I know when to keep my mouth shut!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 20:00:15 (EDT) 
Big Ed: I've got a Surefire on my CAR. I love it! I'd very much like to get some for my shotguns.

Also, you had asked about rings. I'm strictly a Leupold Mk. IV rings guy. Yeah, I know. They're only $100+ for a set. They're also dammed good and possibly would survive the "three ball bearing" test that Rick has talked about.

Dave: 590 vs. 870? No question. 870. How about 870 vs. Benelli (M1 or M3). Or, how about Benelli M1 vs. Benelli M3?

Big Ed (again): Don't go, man. We need the wisdom and the experience. It's guys like you, Rick, James and Gooch (notwithstanding his evil nature) who make the site from the military perspective. Joe R. and others provide the LE perspective as well. We at Sniper Country wouldn't have a site without your participation.

Mr. Bain <>
Somewhere, over the rainbow USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 20:38:56 (EDT) 

Bain: OK, I'll bite... As an owner of both an 870 and a 590, the 870 gets the nod. Most (all?) of the trainers I know who see a lot of shotguns get hard use agree. The 870 isn't flawless but I prefer it to the 590. The Surefire forend on my 870 is nice but can interfere with loading. Ponder that one for a bit!

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 20:50:14 (EDT) 

I am looking for information concerning bullet drop over a span from 100 to 600 yards. The load in I am using is a 52gr Sierra BTHP match using 27 grains of H322. The rifle I am using is a Savage M112 BVSS with a 26" barrel and 9 to 1 twist. As is,it shoots an average of 3/8" to 1/2" groups at 100yds but rarely get a chance to shoot at a longer distance. So when the time comes and a shot presents itself I'd like to have something to estimate hold over. I realize no answer is concrete but something to go by is better than nothing. An e-mail back would be the great. I don't always get a chance to check the roster.
Todd <>
Andover, NY USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 21:15:17 (EDT) 
Torston - The Dolomites! Man I got pushed uphill on skis by the Dolomite "breeze" in 77. Recommend you observe the effect of terrain on the wind speed. The terrain will "wind tunnel" the slight breeze into a hurricane in some areas. You may think the wind is squat until you fire the shot. Man what a shock to the system it is to watch that puppy send out a trace that curves like a beginners T shot in golf! Big problem is that at that speed there isn't any mirage to guesstimate the wind and grass is scarce. LEA types, same effect within the cities! Watch for the wind tunnel effect in the "taller areas" of you large metro areas.

Tom - Go with the Harris and get the swivel model. I haven't found one yet that will beat the sucker. Get a stand military leather sling and use the quick disconnect sling swivels. That way you can use the sling in a sling supported position if necessary, or remove it when it's in the way. Cross sticks and sling combo is a very stable position withe minimal practice. On the stock, I would go with the H&S, no thumbhole (it restricts position adjustment), front rail to mount the bipod (you can adjust the bipod all the way forward for steady one point shots, and adjust the bipod towards the trigger guard as necessary to swing the weapon to cover a larger area or track a moving target), adjustments depends on weather and equipment. If you are shooting only in the prone position with the same amount of clothes then you don't need adjustments. If you are shooting from various positions in the summer heat and winter cold then adjustments may be required.

For my thoughts on my questions. Hold for wind, it changes too dam fast alot of time. By the time you click in the wind, the wind changes, you click again, the dam target has left the area. Also, there is nothing as embarressing as estimating 2.5 moa right for wind. You see a change in direction that requires 1.5 moa left and suddenly, in the heat of battle, find yourself with a shot fired with 1 moa right on the gun. As for the observer, he should be the man with the most experience. He is calling the shot for wind, and reading trace for a follow on shot if it is required. If they are equally trained, they both should be able to fire the shot. The wind call is what will cause most misses at range. If the shot is to be made in a no wind situation, or at 200 and less than the wind becomes less a problem and either can shoot or call. My thoughts, and as Steve pointed out, my school. In SOTIC we hold and teach experience calls. By the end of the 1st day at long range, all of the students agree.

Sarge, I havn't forgotten you, I can't get the dam slides to come up. Mr. Bain, the slides I sent you on Mils, could you send a copy to SARGE. Thanks!!!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 22:30:18 (EDT) 

I am looking for a replacement stock for a Remington 700 BDL. Preferably with an adjustable cheek piece and butt pad and if possible with a handle that is more vertical. Any information would be appreciated.

Terry Evans <>
Ft. Lee, Va USA - Tuesday, July 21, 1998 at 23:40:10 (EDT) 

RE: .308 vs 30-06. Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but if you shoot an enemy/perpetrator with a 30-06, will he be any "deader" than if shot with a .308 from the same distance? While both are very good rounds, The wide spread availability of the .308 (the ability to forage for ammo "in a pinch") and that short action during speed bolt drills makes the .308 hard to beat.

Mr Bain, I for one would love to see a Benelli M1 vs M3 debate. As for the 870, (my Depatrments issue shotgun) I have had only two types of situations where the weapon fails...When the ejector breaks (very rare) and when the student loads the shells into the magazine backwards.(Well, it fit!!!)
Big John <>
Short Creek , Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 00:16:28 (EDT) 

Terry: Look at McMillan A2 and A3 stocks, and also check out the LOD stock if you like a really vertical grip. All have adjustable cheek pads and can be set up to use a variable number of butt spacers.

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 02:05:42 (EDT) 

ALRIGHT! Forget I ever mentioned having a shotgun!!! IT WAS JUST A CASUAL COMMENT! HONEST!!! (Where's the bloody "retract" button on this !$#!#$ keyboard???) No, Ed, no tactical light on my "_ _ _" but I'm planning on mounting a SNIPER RIFLE onto it!

To Bill Rogers: You came "close." Be afraid. Be VERRRRRY afraid. :-)

"It" huh? Cute. Very cute. Beer? Make it Michelob. We'll talk and tell lies to each other about what great shots we are. I look forward to it sometime.

To Pat a.k.a. "Mr. Bullet" -- Glad I could help! :-)

And yes, I've had good luck with Varget too... it's always worth trying.

On the return of my good friend, "Thin Wind" Torsten: Windmeter? My God, man! You're obsessed!!! I think you're getting "blown away" with this "thin wind" stuff. Just had to "breeze" by this topic again, eh what? Okay, okay... give us a report on whatever you find out.

Speaking of weather in Deutchland, there's a 57-percent chance I'll be returning to Wiesbaden in late January, 1999. Remember that restaurant where Prince Charles eats? Be prepared to make our TWO-WEEK AHEAD OF TIME reservations!

To Tom Scott: I posted H-S Precision's phone number in this, or the last, Roster "issue." Do a search and you'll find it. First, you want STIFFNESS in your riflestock. Beyond that, a sloping surface underneath the forearm is nice for minor elevation changes as you're sighting, an adjustable cheekpiece is nice if you're "particular" about mating your eye's line of sight with the center axis of the scope you're using, and the grip and pull should be suited for your stature. Ever since I read what Kelly McMillan had to say in a post about Kevlar in stocks, I've been sworn off ANY notion of EVER owning an H-S Precision stock. I don't think it was "sales hype" to push McMillan stocks (I think they're doing JUST fine, thank you), but it was pretty interesting reading. Boy, THIS ought to get some responses! Again, though, you're stock must be rigid and resistant to changes in both humidity and temperature. Bipod? I never liked Harris. Looks like something a kid put together. Mostly an appearance thing, I suppose. I know the Harris "locks down" harder when you're setting up a shot, but I went with B-Square -- but that was BEFORE the introduction of the Versa-Pod, and before "my" knowledge of the M-85 sold by Model 1 Imports. I bought two M-85s and will be buying a third. Scott Powers did a nice review on the Versa-Pod on this website -- you should read it. A sling is nice, and I like leather ones. Arguments over durability between organic versus synthetic materials not withstanding, I think leather slings offer more utility in "most" situations, especially if you use them as "shooting" slings, not just as "carrying" slings.

To Dave: NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! I do NOT want a "blank" debate about the merits of the "blank" over the "blank!" A pox on you for even thinking such a thing!!!

To Scott: British??? Bloody Hell!!! :-)

And good Lord YES, let's have discussions about .50 BMGs and .308s and .30-06s and....

To Torsten, on "blank" -- How DARE you fuel this "blank" discussion!!! ARGH!!! However, "yes," I know exactly what you mean about... well, "that thing" you told me about in Germany. And when do I get MINE to install and try out? Hint, hint.

To Dave (again): Range, deflection, and elevation have already been computed. (These darn Slope Dopers are GREAT!) Ballistic solution has been plotted. You and Torsten, on "the subject" -- well, be forewarned! :-)

To Jim Craig: Wow! Well said! Gadgets are always a poor substitute for practice.

To Bill Rogers: By rechambering the same barrel for a more powerful cartridge you are bound to change the barrel harmonics and therefore accuracy. You "may" realize the same level of accuracy again (I doubt it), but not without more load development. And NOW, you've added more powder that possibly won't be burned up in a now-shorter barrel (that extra length came from somewhere -- you took it from the barrel, even if it is less than an inch). This presumes, of course, you're talking about loading "up" to the power potential of the .30-06 Springfield/7.62x63mm cartridge, but I think it would hold true even if you didn't "max" the load.

To Mr. Bain: BAIN! BAIN! BAIN! WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN?!!! Here I am, searching like a madman for the "retract" key on my keyboard, and you bring up Benelli M1s??? Don't you have someone to sue or something??? Good grief! :-)

DAVE!!! Jesus H. Christ! (R. Lee Ermey style, again)... I just get done admonishing Mr. Bain, legal dude and all-around good guy, for bringing up "blank" -- then YOU! (I wonder if I still fit into my mailman uniform???)

To Duckman (in case you stop by again): No matter what information you receive, "try" to find a place to practice you're long-range shooting before that "opportunity presents itself." Okay?

To Rick: Have you any opinions on the Parker-Hale type of bipod? Good comments on your own questions. Dang! I sure wish I could come to your school! (sob, sniff, gnashing of teeth)

To "Doc" Terry Evans: Of course you know, I'm going to recommend the McMillan A-2 or A-3 stock.

To Big John (and others): Okay, if you guys can tell me WHY shotguns should be debated on a SNIPER WEBSITE -- I'll listen. Just like college, guys -- be prepared to defend your response. I'm brutal. The other cadre at West Point nicknamed me "Captain Terminator" because I would NEVER give my cadets "partial credit." Hey, in the Army, it's "GO/NO GO"... not "GO/NO GO/SORT-OF-GO" -- and that's the way it is. Shotguns? HERE??? Okay, WHY? I'm listening.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 02:38:54 (EDT) 

Sorry, this is the post by Kelly McMillan that I was referring to in my last post.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 02:42:54 (EDT) 
thanks for the tunnel tip. We will be in a little house on the side of a mountain with about 900 meters @ 45°drop to the valley. I´ll put up some cloth downrange so that I can sit on my balcony and sip a Espresso and watch and learn the wind.
Bi pods !
I have several Parker Hale Bi pods in various configurations. Steel, Aluminium, with skids, or with ball bearing plates. (I`m not rich, Roger Hale was my distributor in the UK ). I like the fast disconect and the sideways tilt to allow for uneven ground faster than adjusting the leg length.
I had given my .50 M-88 to a German Gun Rag and they broke the Aluminum bipod at the socket!.The whimp that shot it pulled the rifle all the way back and let the bipod take the recoil.
Bipod position during shooting !
Wich is better: Pushing forward, pulling back ??
I´ve found that the neutral position at the top of the radius is best. I tend to get high shots when pushing forward. Recoil seems to push the rifle on the upward ark on the Bipod to cause this.
Comments Rick ?

2 Days to go !

Germany - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 03:55:05 (EDT) 

"We will be in a little house on the side of a mountain with about 900 meters @ 45°drop to the valley. I´ll put up some cloth downrange so that I can sit on my balcony and sip an Espresso and watch and learn the wind."

Okay Torsten, THAT did it!!! I want to know, RIGHT NOW, what's it going to take to get me AND my rifle into Germany? With this one little description, you painted in my mind a vision so lovely, so relaxing, and SO DARN MUCH FUN... well, !#%@#@#, I wanna come play too! Next time you come over, we'll go prairie dogging. Next time "I" come over there... fire up that Espresso machine and break out the ammo!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 06:09:25 (EDT) 

Russell, Shame on you dreaming about "IT" in a little house somewhere in Germany! and Yes men! They are deader if hit by something bigger going faster as a rule. And that big .50 ... B.J. Even hell won't even take em after that!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 09:23:14 (EDT) 
Oh yes! Russell your quite correct as usual, it is the barrel and the powder and the speed and the .... !

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 09:26:08 (EDT) 

Torsten raises a good point on bipods that allow the user to rock the rifle forward or back. IT is one item I did not like about the Versa-pod. When seating the rifle, I often found that the bipod would feel wobbly if it was held at center. To firm up this feeling, I had push forward against the bipod, and this made me readjust my position. If you pull back, you risk snapping the bipod at the pivot during recoil, as it is made of pot metal or aluminum. The only way to lock down the swivel mechanism on the Versa-pod or M-85 was to push forward. Even my modification of adding a locking screw to the swivel did not totally firm up the system as the leg unit still has some play. For moving targets, the Versa/P-H/M-85 does give you a lot of welcome movement, but personally, I prefer a harder holding bipod. The upside of these "looser" bipods is the quick removal. You just can not beat the Parker-Hale based systems for that.

On the question of holding forward or back: This is a real catch-22. If you seat the rifle to your shoulder properly, you automatically pull the bipod back, which rotates it up, and loses the firm locked in feel. If you push forward, you have to make sure the bipod is set down to the rear of its final position, to account for the fact that you will be leaning into it. If you choose to pull the pod all the way back, you must first place the rifle far forward, pulling it back enough to seat the stock and cock the bipod in a rearward locked position. Screw all this! It is too much to worry about! With the Harris, there is no leg position to deal with. Push, pull, prod. It makes no difference. The legs just do their unmoving thing and can be forgotten, except for height.

I finally switched back to a Harris BR-S. With it, you simply get into position, seat the rifle, and forget what the bipod is doing. It simply doesn’t move. It has infinitely adjustable legs, which are admittedly slightly slower to deploy than the notched Versa/P-H/M-85 legs, but it is fairly indestructible. All of these things work, and in the end, your actual use and preference will define what works for you. For me, I found that the V-pod, while usable, was less desirable that the hard holding Harris.

Now for a quiz: A shorter bipod is more stable. Long legged ones are not desirable. What is one to do when laying prone on a downward slope, while shooting at a 400 yard target on an upward slope? There are several answers but I’d like to hear what you all have to add! Well call this exercise, "Pain in the Neck 101."
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 09:56:26 (EDT) 

Russ: You opened the door to this line of debate, man! Seriously, my understanding is that James Jarrett's Tactics and Techniques course went through extractions and problems therewith. Students trained with carbines and shotguns to shoot their way out of surprise run-ins with the opposition.

Torsten: What kind of German would wimp out on shooting a .50? "Good Grief" as Russ would say. I know my German ancestors would never do such a thing.

Russ (again): I've read McMillan's post on Kevlar in stocks. I'm certain that he puts out a quality stock without Kevlar, but I'm equally certain that HS does too, using the stuff. What do all you "oldtimers" know about the reliability of HS stocks? I've never heard a thing about them.


Mr. Bain <>
Somewhere, in the USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 10:05:10 (EDT) 

I was in our local gun shop the other day picking up some bullets when the owner showed me a new bi-pod he had just recieved. It had a couple of real nice features. It not only pivots side to side but it will rotate and you can lock out one or both features for a standard bi-pod. This is the first one I've seen that will rotate side to side and would be great for you guys who can actually hit moving targets. I didnt have a lot of time to check it out but if anyone is interested let me know and I will try to get you some information on it.

Old ED,
Dont leave!! Where else can you find a place like this. I'am sure you have a wealth of information you can share with us. I told my son about the CMP and he's going to get into it.They have a program where he's at so he was excited about it.

If you look in the back of your sierra loading manual you will find the information your looking for. Take your bullet and follow it through the ballistic table's in the back of the manual. It will also give you wind drift. The table's probably wont be exact but should put you close. you will need to shoot your own rifle and load to confirm it. If you dont have one e-mail me and I will look it up for you.
PS, you will need to know your approximate velocity check this by your load data if you dont know exactly. Hope this helps.
Pat <>
Piere, SD USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 10:34:07 (EDT) 

OK let me boil this down. Only the Harris Bipod is stable. Parker Hale, Versa, B-Square are wimpy since they wiggle.

McMillan is the way to go, since I can't find HS contact and McMillan says H&S aren't as good(?), No mention of Choate or Six. Get the A2 or A3, no finger hole.
Get a sloped front end a track type mount.

Get a leather military style sling. No mention of Web type or slings usefullness in general.

Blow off using a 308 or 30-06 and get a 50caliber for home defense and short range work, unless you can call in air support and get out of your house faster than the perp.

Have I got this correct, I hate to misquote and start debates.
tom <>
Generally, here in the USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 10:56:52 (EDT) 

Forget the bipod. Use your ruck or another avaialbe natural rest and adjust your body position for the shot. When we started doing this stuff in the old Corps, we didn't use bipods at all. We learned to shoot.

Good summary. Don't forget to have your demo man leave a claymore or two on short timers facing the perps so they are slowed down if they try to follow you out before the Fire for Effect hits the house.
Jim Craig <>
Sheridan, WY USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 11:44:46 (EDT) 

Gna,gan,gna,gna ! Oh Yes,I will enjoy it, and I get to spot the marketplace of our little village, and the babes, with my Kowa too !
Jan 99, I may be in states for the Shot Show already and have a beer with Bain and visit Rick. If not we´ll uncork you W.o.G. and let Germany listen.
And on the ___ subject, assembly date is the 25th of Sept. I´ll make sure you get one for review.
Bill R.
do you have one ?? Lets compare notes ? I make my own 780 Gn Monolithic Match Bullets. (sold some to Mc Millan)
I have used both and will stick with my PH for the following reasons:1. easy to attach and to carry when off the gun. 2. can be folded forward and backwards 3. the looseness does not bind the stock and lets the rifle recoil freely. 4. easy to adjust 5. with the skids you can push forward with the rifle in your shoulder in a sort of a low crawl. 6. it does not have a live of its own with springs etc that can slip out of hand and clang like a bell.

P.S. For the el´cheapo rifle rest I teach my soldiers to use or folding entreching tool like you also have, fold it like a Z push the blade into the ground with the handle facing you and up, and 100Mphtape a field dressing to the top of the handle so that the rifle rests nice and soft. Presto !

Pain in the neck 101:
I lay at a 60-75° angle towards one side(left in my case)rather than behind the rifle, so that Im not getting the Headrush with my feet up and my neck sore.
Also I rest the Butt on the ground, or if time permits dig in a little.

Bain: It was wanna`be Israeli, and with the .50 being a STOLEN copy of our legendary 13mm anti tank round I think every one of us should have fired one on their 18th birthday.

Old ED:
I´m not gonna beg, but stick around and share your knowledge. Please !

Torsten <>
shooting downhill, in Italy Germany - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 12:25:31 (EDT) 

Bain, Pat, Thorsten, All: Thanks, you'll make an old man cry if you keep this up! I hate it when that happens, my walker gets rusty and my 18 year old wife has to clean it!

Thorsten: The 50 cal Mac is a fine weapon, lots of fun to touch it off and let the neighbors wonder!!!!!! (What's a bipod)? Not much knowledge here anymore but thanks!!!!

Jim C: Ya mean ya don't have Claymores set and ready all the time????? Sheeeeessss, young-uns......

Tom S: The 50 cal is for fun, home defense and close work is for the 20mm.....

Dave: I hate to say it but 870s suck!!!!! Had one, had LOTS of trouble with it, sold same. Mossburg is the only weapon, (shotgun) that passed the tests for acceptence for military service, 3,000 rds, cold, hot, mud, etc. Remington didn't even come close....(What did whoever said it mean by no shotguns on a sniper site)? When stalking I have mine straped to my walker right alongside my 50 cal and 20mm playguns, My sidearms are a 50AE Desert Eagle and two SOCOM .45s, (wife's gonna have to work on her arms)!

Bill R: No, didn't think you'd want to get into 50 cal vs 308/30.06! :-)

Bain: Will e-mail on the cleaning stuff, gotta think awhile, (I'm old ya know)! :-)

Out here
Gramps Ed <>
Old Folks Home, What????? USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 12:56:13 (EDT) 

Personally, I'd like to avoid the shotgun debate, if only people would stop baiting me... The only reason it might be applicable to SC is that I think the shotgun might be a valid choice for an observer's weapon in a police sniper team, given a properly set-up shotgun and a properly trained operator who can accurately engage targets with slugs at 100m. But that pretty well sums up my thoughts on the matter and I'd love to see the subject dropped! :)

I like the Harris bipods. I like a bipod that cants, but not loosely! I pull the rifle into my shoulder (esp. with the .300 Win.) and the Harris works well for that. That said, when my new rifle shows up I will be using it as much as possible sans bipod, using the jarhead "ruck rest" as Jim mentioned. And there's always the stick tripod, they work pretty well most of the time.
Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 13:00:54 (EDT) 

Bingo Jim. You win the prize. A ruck was my first thought. Laying sideways to the rifle seems about the only way to swing high angle shots in low veg. Shooting sticks(tripod)made from arrows are an otpion. I have also played with the Butt on the ground idea, but still suffered the neck ache. Forgetting the bipod is probably the best idea. They can be as big a handicap as a help. But they sure do look cool in gun magazines, don't they...;-)

Torsten: I liked the P-H style pods for all the reasons you list. Which was why I wrote such a good review on them when I first tried them. But having gone back to a Harris, I realized I was spending more time adjusting things with the P-H style, than I was with the Spring and clip Harris. I guess I am getting old and just want to keep it simple.

Tom: You can use all the bipods we have mentioned to good effect. It all comes down to what you prefer. P-H types are not whimpy, but they do move more. For some, this is not an issue. For others, it is a reasopn to buy one!

On the Stocks: Both the H.S. Precision and the McMillian are good - negative comments can be made on both. Nothing is perfect.

On leather slings. Buy a Turner. Best on the market. I have an MRT and can not tell you much about it, but it doesn't compare to the Turner. Do not forget, you are not buying the sling to CARRY the rifle. It is a tool to get into a solid hold. Leather will GENERALLY strech less than webbing. Frankly, you can get by with out a sling. This ain't high power. that will start a debate: To sling or not to sling!
Scott Powers <>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 13:37:04 (EDT) 

McMillan Stocks-- BAHH Humbug!. They may create a good product, but when do you get it. After half a dozen phones, getting the run around, and being lied to, I still have yet to get my stock. It has been 16 weeks already, and who knows when I will receive it for my customer. Pretty catalogues and brochures do not make a company. Customer satisfaction DOES!! For my money, McMillan, in that respect, is at the bottom of heap!!

H/S precision stocks are a very good choice, and check out the new UARS stocks from Gunsite. They are good looking, made well, and have great documentation to back their claims about lowering your MOA. Thats what I recommend to my customers.

Take that McMillan and shove it!

Al Ostapowicz <>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 13:38:03 (EDT) 

I have a Brownells Competitor "thick leather, just shave of the hair on the outside and peel the critter out of the inside" sling. I use 550 cord to fix it to the rifle (quiet).
It is way to light colored when new, but some cam cream and lots of use solved that.
I have a 12" x 3/4" strap on my left shoulder of my sniper smock with some velco. It can be used to hold up the sling on the upper arm when in prone and kneeling position. Works well and one can burst out of it fast.


P.S. Hey Grandpa! good to have you back, nice ghillie on that walker of yours !
still, in Germany - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 14:57:39 (EDT) 

Mr Bain, my apologies for the errant post wrt. question #2.

But I am inclined to pose a question wrt to its removal.

That being I understand no one would want to release classified info, but a discussion of what options to overcome said question, being in the form of speculation, not the release of classified info, doesn't seem any different than a discussion of colors of a stalking suit to defeat human eye detection...

That said, your site kicks butt.

Jeff Pack Captain USMC (retired)

Recon Rules! :)

PS: just as if the shotgun debate hadn't ended, I carried a Remington 870 in the bush for 2 years, and never had a single failure with it. and it was quite well used...
I still have it today...
Jeff pack <>
USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 15:13:12 (EDT) 

To Bill and every one else who caught my error on my .223 load. The load isn't 27 gr of H322 but 26gr of BLC2. Thank you all.
Todd Moyer < >
Andover, NY USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 16:11:55 (EDT) 
Rick. Thanks for all your help! I think that I will go with useing the 308win. in my long-action. and I think that the H-S stock will suit my needs. I'll keep you posted as it goes on.
Tom. yes, the big 50BMG is a good round fo squirrel hunting, but I don't think the local Wal-mart carries ammo for it until deer season starts.
D. West <>
Orlandpark, Ill. USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 16:38:39 (EDT) 
CPT Jeff: Yes, indeed, you raise a good analogy. I should tell you that Grampa Ed and I had some private e-mail communication on this subject as well. In summary form, I noted that while the information may already be public, the the U.S. military still considers it classified and so we will respect that classification. Generally speaking, ghillie suit manufacture is not classified. It is our understanding that some forms of evading detection still are.

On a broader note: given that we have lurkers from all of the Spec. Ops. units, federal L.E., and the design and logistics types from ARDEC, ARL, Rock Island, etc., who are very concerned about their work, and given that we often obtain public domain information from these very same people, we are very careful not address certain issues. (See my article on the electronic counter-sniper systems. We knew about this for a while, but wouldn't say anything until DOD, DOJ and the defense contractors went public.) Jeff, our deletion was no slam against you, we just don't want our friends in the U.S.G. and sniping community to think we are careless, thoughtless, stupid, or otherwise acting contrary to the interests of military and law enforcement snipers. We're not like the pinheads at "Gung Ho" magazine whose inadvertent actions compromised troops in the field back in the '80s. We're certainly not like Philip Agee of the Agency whose intentional actions led to deaths in the field back in the '70s. We don't even want -- in any way -- the appearance of any impropriety on our part, as much as we might want to discuss an issue, such as the one you raise.

Keep up the posts. We need your input here, In-Country.


Mr. Bain <>
On the right side, of the law USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 16:45:04 (EDT) 

Torsten: What's a bipod? Is that some kind of German thing for people that can't use rucks, rocks, sticks, poles, arrows, trees, etc??????? :-)

Bain: Stil thinking!!!!!

CPT Jeff: Bain's right, we shouldn't talk about that subject for a while yet I guess. Some of the bad guys could read it here and use it to the wrong advantage. It's in several books now but if the Military still has it classified we should respect that. (I hate it when Bain's right)! :-)

Gooch: Get yer ass back here man, I need cover!!!!!

BTW: 50BMG rds are available at every "Stop and Rob" that I go into!!!!!!!!

Did I ever tell you about the 500 yard shot blindfolded, over the left shoulder, in the center of target with my trusty Mossburg loaded with #7 shot? No, well I won't bore you then..........

Out here
Gramps <>
Old Folks Home, What????? USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 19:06:29 (EDT) 

I accidentally stumbled across this site. Am I ever glad I did. Thanks for the info.

john cooke <>
san diego, california USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 19:06:54 (EDT) 

Thorsten: Almost forgot, (I'm old ya know), my 18 year old wife was happy that you liked the Gillie for my walker! It took her a week to make it, (she's gettin old too ya know)!
:-) (If she ever sees this post I won't get any older)!!!!

Gotta go, the jello's ready, I love jello, I don't have to put my teeth in, I can just gum it!!!!!!!

Out here
Gramps <>
Old Folks Home, What?????? USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 19:12:15 (EDT) 

I have a quick bit on bad loads and bad choices. I was up to a friends shop last night to pick up a sun shade and caps and noticed a sharp looking rifle on the bench. After asking about it he went on to explain that the owner couldn't figure out why it was seperating the cases. It was totally breaking around the neck! The bore was so coppered up it wasn't funny. After looking into it a little bit the guy was shooting junk .308 military ammo through it. The worst part is that it isn't chambered in .308, its a 7.62x54 Russian. Go figure?
Todd <>
NY USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 20:59:23 (EDT) 
To Russ A.K.A. "Captian Teminator" Why should we debate M1 vs M3's???? Because I want a Benelli!!!Thats Why :-). Sorry that I can not come up with a better reason than this, but in my line of work (prison) You take what you can, while you can, as much as you can and don't tell anybody you've got it! I guess that I was trying to apply the same logic here. Or to phrase it another way, Are you the kind of man who would turn down a cold beer just because you were at an ice cream stand?
However, I will yield to your convicions. This is a sniper site, and a good sniper should be well out of shotgun range. I shall retract my request and await the "What's better, .22 Long Rifle or .460 Weatherby Magnum" debate.

Big John <>
Short Creek, Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 22:01:27 (EDT) 

For my money if you have to carry a stright baton It would be a polycarbonate 30" Monadnock Baton. I am not a cop so i don't know if it's leagal to for you to carry one. I am correctional officer in an med-high med. prison and there have been several occasions that i thanked God above for that 30 inches of polycarbonate!! They have a really great certifation program as well. Always wear that body armor!!

Gramps.. Tisk, tisk, One must not slander the 870 we use them at work (ie training) all of the time and i have never had one malfuctiuon yet. And several Turkeys have landed on my plate because of the 870.
Stagger <>
Terre Haute, IN USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 23:27:26 (EDT) 

Great site. Just checking back in after my computer bought the farm and had to start over from scratch. I am putting together a long-range rig with a Rem. 700 varmint fluted .308, and am interested in the Springfield 4 x 14 x 56 3rd. Gen scope with range finding reticle. If anybody has any experience with this unit or knows of any reputable testing results I would really appreciate it. Semper Fi.

Christopher Mark Lewis <lewisusa1>
Kent, Wash USA - Wednesday, July 22, 1998 at 23:39:36 (EDT) 

OK Scott, I'll buy in once. Here's what I do. I turn around and put the Harris across my knee with the V centered on my leg and shoot kind of a bipod creedmore. If you can visualize such a thing. Don't try it at home you might shoot your foot off kiddies. Rucksack? whats that. I've used my Stieners for a bipod does that count?
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 00:21:24 (EDT) 
To Scott: Good comments, as usual. Enjoyed your oration on the bipod contrast and comparison.

On your "problem." I like it. Hmmm. Well, if I had "gear," I'd make a pile and place the bipod on it. If I had time AND the right gear, I'd dig a trench for myself and the rifle, thus elevating the muzzle. If the bipod was quickly detachable, I'd "consider" detaching it and sliding it rearward along the underside of the stock, holding it in place with my hand, preferably in a recessed area of the stock if it was designed with one. If time permitted and it was a B-Square type, you could unscrew the extensions from one leg and screw them all into the other, then take up a modified/modified/modified sitting position and use a knee for the other support (should be pretty steady, actually). That's all I can come up with, just off the top of my head. Like Jim Craig suggested, I'd probably just dump the bipod idea and utilize an appropriate body position. All in all, with a several photos of the suggested solutions, you could do a nice feature article for Sniper Country on this problem of yours. I think it would be a good one and very useful. Hell, son, we'll make you a star!

To Mr. Bain: Hey, I'm sorry I ever MENTIONED having a Mossberg 590 Persuader for unwanted guests. God, I don't want another "what shotgun is best" going on here. Let me ask you REAL snipers (Rich, Gooch, anyone)... do YOU guys haul SHOTGUNS along with you??? Should we be looking at this issue or not? Further, it's obvious that H-S Precision sells "good" stocks, or people wouldn't be keeping them in business. Still, that doesn't change the facts about Kevlar in stocks.

To Pat: Yes, I want the information on the "new" bipod. Most rikky-tik, please. Thanks.

To Tom Scott: Can't find H-S Precision??? I told you, son, look at the last Duty Roster or so (if not this one). I posted the phone number. Also, following Jim Craig's line of reasoning (rather good, by the way), establish a trench system around your house and line the trenches with pungy (sp?) sticks (make sure to dip them into something interesting, like strychnine, arsenic, or manure). Leave a safe route through this mess (and endeavor to REMEMBER it). As a contingency for a night-time escape, prepare "flashers" to blind your pursuers and impair their nightvision capabilities. Deploy smoke behind you as you move. Call in the fast movers with "snake n nape." That ought to about do it.

To Bill R: I have two of Torsten's "magic" bullets. Neat. Laser-etched with "McMillan." Very, very cool. I keep trying to get the lad to make some for me in .338 caliber, around 300 grains, with a B.C. of close to "1.00" -- I keep hoping.

To Ed: Why are you leaving? WHEN did you say you're leaving? I've missed something here.

"When stalking I have mine strapped to my walker right alongside my 50 cal and 20mm playguns, My sidearms are a 50AE Desert Eagle and two SOCOM .45s, (wife's gonna have to work on her arms)!" -- Thanks, Ed, you gave me a laugh. I rarely laugh. Again, thanks. I don't know about "NO" shotguns here, I just want to know "why." And, I love my 590 Persuader. Bought it the day the d**khead in the White House signed the Brady Bill into law. Kind of a "statement" of sorts, you know. Why that one? It had more shots than the 870 or a Winchester, and it was affordable, and it was rugged enough to pass Mil-Spec testing. Good enough for me.

To all: Okay boys and girls, can we put this shotgun topic to rest now? If it doesn't die a natural death pretty soon, I'll personally kill it -- and enjoy doing so. I think Dave summed it up nicely, for whatever purpose it has in a sniper role. We're talking SNIPERS here, not assaults or "hit and runs." I'm still open to justification of shotgun discussions here, but I haven't heard a convincing argument yet, FOR A SNIPER WEBSITE.

To Al: Gee, what do you REALLY think about McMillans? Come ON, quit beating around the bush!!! For what it's worth, I sent McMillan an E-mail on this delivery problem of yours. It's a very valid concern. Maybe Kelly will stop by to comment (or maybe not). Personally, I've had to wait, and wait, and WAIT for WEEKS on three, count ‘em, THREE separate occasions, for a stock or for stock work. Understand though, in the "gun life," I'm used to waiting for everything. It's a way of life. I think most of us would agree, waiting for services, products, and upgrade parts is the way it is, and it's not likely to ever change.

To Torsten: I, too, have the Competitor slings from Brownells. Three of them, in fact. I like them. Never thought of the camouflage cream. Good idea, I might try it.

To Jeff Pack: Mr. Bain called me at home, immediately, and left a message on my answering machine about your post. First, we still think you're a swell guy and you can come over and break bread at my house anytime. Second, though, we felt that while your question was innocent enough, it may have lead to things being posted here that neither I nor the rest of the Council would want to be liable for. I'm sure you can understand. If you'd like to discuss this offline, feel free to drop me an E-mail. Again, for the record, "I am not mad at you." Neither is Mr. Bain. We just feel that your question could have led others to post information here that would not be wise to have out in the open. Granted, perhaps elsewhere on the Internet, the answers to your questions exist. However, we don't want the information here. Further... I'd prefer you not tell everyone, via personal E-mail, what your question was (if you haven't already done so), simply because it would likely lead to others researching the matter, and I don't feel it is a topic that should be delved into with any degree of serious devotion. Again, I don't feel it's a "free speech" issue, I feel it's a "not for release on this site" issue. And to the rest of you... don't ask me about it, because you won't get jack ca-ca out of me on the matter. Period.

To Todd: Thanks for posting the correct load data.

To Gramps: Before Torsten calls in an air strike on your aged and decaying body, let me tell you that it's "Torsten" not "Thorsten." I'm sure Torsten has "range" on you now, as I type this. Just exactly how fast CAN you get to cover with that walker??? :-)

To Todd: Good story on the 7.62x54mm Russian. Ignorance abounds.

To Big John: I smiled. I rarely smile either. The shotgun thing isn't dead yet (sigh), but I have my hopes. Okay, tell you what. Today is Thursday. Shotgun discussers have until Sunday, 26 Jul 98, 2400 hours Central time, U.S.A., to get this out of their systems. (Where's my Prozac? It was right HERE. I swear it was!) Oh... on the .22 Long Rifle vs. the .460 Weatherby Magnum? Don't push me, John, just don't push me. :-)

To Christopher: My recommendation is to avoid any of the Springfield scopes. This will, no doubt, annoy current owners of said scopes. Life's rough, what can I say? For the money, there are any number of better scopes with regard to clarity, overall quality, and utility. Shop around. Why do you want a 56mm objective? Just asking. You mentioned long-range shooting, but what are your targets going to be? I ask this with respect to the type of reticle you want/need. Thanks for the kind words about the site.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 02:45:03 (EDT) 

On the shotgun debate, I hope that it isn't forgot that Mossberg has a semi-auto 9200 "jungle-gun" that is starting to become quite a favorite with the DEA. It is the ONLY semi-auto to pass the Military "shuck-gut" tests. It has the same location for the safety as the 590, which is a blessing to left-handed shooters, and can be converted over to more configurations than the 590. I think that Big Eds' tactical flashlight can be mounted as well.
Now all I got to do is figure out a way to attach it to the underside of a 30-06........O.K. I'm going Russ, I'm going!!!
D. West <>
same, thing USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 04:27:39 (EDT) 
Does the H-S, M-24 stock come in a varmint barrel channel?

D. West <>
Orlandpark, Ill. USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 04:52:07 (EDT) 

Grandpa Ed,
old man you cracked me up !
It has been since 82´that I had thought about Jello.
I was sitting here with tears in my baby blues, thinking of you and your very old wife fighting in a Whirlpool full of Jello over who gets to take the walker out for an oil change.

Oh Russ !
Hammer zwo, hier Adler eins,
Feuerkommando - kommen, Richtung 6400, Entfernung 3800, Schuß - kommen,........., 150 nach Rechts, Schuß - kommen,
ganzer Zug, drei Gruppen - Feuer !
There, that should keep you and Grandpa at bay digging ,the walker, in for a while.

BTW, when logging temperature in my dope book, is it worthwhile to ad the winchill ??

one day to go !

Germany - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 06:16:35 (EDT) 

Click here for a nice "alternative" way to apply moly to bullets.

To "Windchill" Torsten, formerly known as "Thin Wind" Torsten -- likely soon to be known forever more as simply "Windy" Torsten: "Ahem"... WINDCHILL???!!! Listen, ol' boy, aren't you getting just a WEEEEEEEE bit carried away with this wind thing??? Now see here, next you'll have us wondering how to USEthe wind to help us REALLY "reach out." Mein Gott!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 06:33:37 (EDT) 

Russ: Yes, I consider the issue of McMillan Stocks a valid concern also. When I tell my customer that the stock will be ready in 8 to 12 weeks, it expect it to be done. I ordered it in the beginning of April, and the competition is this weekend. Both my customer and I felt we had enough time to have the rifle built, sighted in and ready to go. But 15 1/2 to 16 weeks later, we are sitting here with a scope and a barrelled action in our hands. Its a moot point about the stock back now. Now they can piddle around with for another 15 weeks. Thanks for nothing, McMillan.

DForce: As far as H/S Precision stocks go, yes the barrel channel is large enough to accomodate even the heaviest varmint barrel. You won't go wrong with and H/S, Or look at the UARS stocks from Gunsite - Phone # 520-636-4565.

Al Ostapowicz <>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 07:09:15 (EDT) 

Torsten: Sorry for the mis-spelling of your name, (I'm old ya know)! :-) Glad you enjoyed the jello, hmmmmm, bathtub, wife, several girl friends, viagra, hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!! I missed something, one day to what????? Momma says you can come by and help change the oil in the walker, (I found out she is German, Mien Gott, her maiden name is Hoppe)!! You danced around the bipod issue, what is it??????

Russ: Could you be any more long winded????? :-) Glad I made you laugh, (what were you laughing at)????? :-) BTW, I'm not going anywhere, I forgot, where was I going???

Mossburg RULES!!!!!!! :-) OK Russ, I'm done with that, (unless someone pisses me off)! Next Bain or some other lawyer type will be cutting down my M21.......

Out here
Gramps <>
Old Folks Home, Confused USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 07:49:47 (EDT) 

Russ: It's OK to call Klinton a dickhead, (her husband is one too)!!!!!!! Try the light attachment on your 590, it's worth the money, really........

Out here
Gramps <>
Old Folks Home, Confused USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 07:55:21 (EDT) 

If I can find a new name since "Moonguide" is a copyrighted name. I am going to design a circular slide thing to tell when snipers want to talk about "It",Shotguns, Funky bullets,Women,Wind on German hillsides,Classified Items,spotting scopes, and rarely about rifles. I guess this should go on the Forum!There would be a special indicator to tell whether they read the posts from top to bottom or vice-versa!The special colors indicate the degree of seriousness that will be incorporated.Red for Angry debate and brown for obvious reasons.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 08:32:00 (EDT) 
Tom Scott: Hey there buddy. I did not realize you were having trouble finding a source for the H.S. Precision stock. I have their literature at home. Email me at the xring address and I will pull the info and get you an address and phone number. Also, if your problem is simply finding said stock for sale, that is a no brainer. Gander mountain, Cabela's, Bass Pro all had them at one time, and may still. Brownells definitely has them but wants too much! WAY to much. You should be able to pick up a PSS stock or non-adjustable M24 stock for under $300. Typical prices for HS stocks of any contour start around $245. If you want the adjustable M24 or the Tactical Stock, you will have to shell out a "bit" more.

Al: A local store had a McMillan stock recently for sale. I'll try to get hold of them today and see if it is still available.

Pump Shotguns( hee hee, this is for Russ). They all seem to work. Never had any complaints with the Moss or 870's. One thing, if you buy a used shotgun, make darn sure you have two action levers. I had an old Stevens with only one action lever attacted to the slide and it would bind under the stress of fast operation. My 870 on the other, hand can be fired as fast as a semi, with nary a burp.
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 09:05:48 (EDT) 

Unless my memory is in error, the reason the US military went to the .308 (7.62 X 51) is that it was designed by the US military. The attempt was to achieve .30-06 balistics in a short action cartridge; the outstanding accuracy was a welcome addition that was not specifically designed in, but sort of "occurred". I am not sure, but think Picatinny Arsenal in NJ was involved in the cartridge development. Then again, it may have been a strictly Springfield Armory project; not sure. Again, not sure, but I believe the developmental designation for this cartridge was T-51. NATO standardization was sort of "requested" by the US, the only problem was that once finally approved and implemented, we quickly went over to the 5.56 and the M-16. The origin of the round as a sniper cartridge was due to the doctrine that a sniper round should not sound different from the infantry round (M-14 rifle at the time); thus helping to not differentiate the sniper from any other grunt. Obviously, until a 5.56 sniper round is used, this doctrine is bogus. Equally obvious is the difference in sound of a .50 BMG from everything else. Maybe an older someone out there who actually worked in ordnance development could sort all of this out.
Fred Fischer <>
People's Republic of MD, USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 09:21:11 (EDT) 
Ok Russ you caught me on that one. Therefore I shall state before the council to never again mention "chilled thin wind" ! BTW Did you guys know that there is a shooting competition held in Germany were they shoot at the reflection of the target in the water and `skip`the bullets into the target.

We learned in FIBUA to shoot the opposite wall when entering a room or just shooting into a open door or window in order to bounce bullets and debris around the room. Has anyone of you bounced and hit something !

Which brings me to the following Question:
We want to engage a 6" Target at 100 Meters with one shot. 5 M in front of the target is a double pane window, and there is one 2 M in front of the Muzzle. Both at 90°. This was brought up by a German Police force. Any input from our LE Snipers ?
What caliber and what bullet at what velocity ?

Opa Draider6:
I have this well hung friend of mine, we call him Tripod.
No, the bipods work well on the range and out in the open, but when I go out as a Sniper in my Reserve Unit I leave it in my well filled Rucksack and use that instead or I find myself a position behind or under a fallen tree were I dont need it. And yes I know, "train with what you acually will use". Give my Regards to Fräulein Hoppe!

P.S. is it true that the Marines carry their Sandbags filled ?


Chilled thin Wind Torsten
Germany - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 09:39:38 (EDT) 

Swedens new .308win APDS sniperround is made by Winchester!

Winchester got the contract for 1 mill. rounds to the Swedish army.

The .17cal, 53gr wolfram bullet has a MV of ca. 1350ms/4400fps. Accuracy is better than 1MOA in the PSG90/Accuracy International AW-rifle.

The new round har flatter trajectory, less winddrift and shorter time of flight than any .300wm-load at any range.

Unit price is $2.

I'll bet some of you US snipers will have to change the ballistic cams on your scopes in the near future.

Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 09:48:53 (EDT) 

OK so let me some this up one more time.

Buy a Harris walker have your 18 year old wife wrap her camo around it(remember to keep it clean with Hoppes). Dig into the jello and shotgun them with a nice clean support with lot's of springs(made by the Viagra Stock company).

I wish I wasn't so curious all of your not talking about not talking is really getting me interested in the chilled wind issue.

Actually, Thank you all for your help. I'm spending money and making gun parts dealers very happy.
tom <>
I love , the USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 11:31:43 (EDT) 

Ende ; your not gonna hit that 6" target. Maybe a howitzer.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 12:32:46 (EDT) 
Torsten. Re your question on glass. In my sweaty palms I am holding this months issue of Tactical Shooter. In it is a review of varying glass materials and how they can be shot through. Double Pane plate glass does not look promising if you are only using a HPBT match round. The glass material makes it worse. Are you shooting plain old glass, or modern plate glass? TO sum up what they had to say about this issue: "In double pane windows, the bullet is damaged after penetrating the first piece of glass and it is unpredictable what the bullet will do to the second glass and target." They then go on to say that "taking this shot is risky with any type of bullet?

They tested quite few projectiles, so it would seem that this sort of shot is marginal, even with FMJ and penetrator rounds. Add that second window you mentioned, 5 meters from the shooter, and things look to go south in a big way.

Hmmm...what was your answer? .50 AP? Linear Accelorator? Gauss gun? AT-4? Or the venerable 88mm Flak 36?

Tom: Do not forget to rub Hoppes #9 vigorously into your facial skin before making the shot. It also helps to pray to the great god of accuracy, Ballistilicus the Red. With these methods, and Gooch's Chicken bones, along with a goodly dose of the familiy fortune, your gear will be assuredly squared away.
Scott <I hate glass powers>
USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 12:33:50 (EDT) 

Hey Guys her name is really Hoppe! Not related to THE Hoppes, (damn the luck), but it's really Hoppe!

Chill Wind, I'd use a 50 cal or a 20mm, glass has VERY little effect on them! :-)

Gramps <>
Old Folks Home, Confused USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 14:42:54 (EDT) 

Torsten: You still didn't remind me, WHAT'S "ONE DAY LEFT" MEAN????? Are you going somewhere?????

Out here
Gramps <>
???????, ??????? USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 14:44:35 (EDT) 

A picture of Winchesters .308win APDS sniperround ordered by the Swedish army.
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 16:08:10 (EDT) 

It seems to me that the .17 cal, 53gr wolfram bullet is not a big deal at all.The .220 Swift does almost the same thing only it has been around for over half a century and costs much less than $2.00 per round.
The .300 Win Mag with a 110 gr bullet has a muzzle velocity about 18 % slower than this .17 cal wolfram but has a bullet that is over 100% heavier.
The .25-06 & .257 Weatherby Mag with lighter bullets also approach this velocity with bullets that are about 50% heavier than the wolfram.

It is the trend these days to hate McMillan because of the long waits for their stocks.I don't know what's going on at McMillan but if the long waits are caused by the company refusing to take shortcuts and lower the quality of the product just so they can ship them out the door faster than I think that they should be admired.I'd rather have a top quality stock that I had to wait for than get a piece of garbage tomorrow.

USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 16:19:58 (EDT) 

To Torsten: (glass plate problem)
I thought I had covered every contingency with my Possibles bag but now it looks like I will have to go buy a glass cutter and some duct tape also. That is the only way that I will ever try to shoot thru a plate glass 2 meters in front of the muzzle.

To Scott: (to sling or not to sling)
The sling is the umbilical cord which joins the rifle to the shooter and make the two become one. It is also the third part of the holy trinity together with the MoJo stick and the sun bleached chicken bones that allow the shooter to direct the bullet to the target by force of will alone. No serious shooter would ever consider going afield without all three. Sadly, the human arm can only stand about 30 minutes of such bliss so it is important to use the power of the sling wisely.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 18:00:23 (EDT) 

Gramps; I've been working on a unit that sounds a lot like your walker (really like your weapons choice) I've been thinking about just what kind of engine it should have. I think I've settled on a Honda Valkyrie motorcycle engine (1520 cc 6 cyl, horizontally opposed, bout 100 bhp) but I'm stuck deciding between camoflage and chrome.

Russell: I like my Benelli M-1 Super-90 Tactial with Ghost Ring night sites and Pistol Grip Stock.

Scott: You can not shoot your slide action as fast as I can shoot my Benelli, I can't even shoot it as fast as it will shoot. Before I got it (a gift to myself for surviving the police academy at 47) someone told me that if you fired five rifled slugs as fast as you could pull the trigger the fifth would be in the air before the first reached a target set at 100 yds. I thought this was pure B.S. until I tried. I can get four in the air but my arthuritis catches up with me at about that point. Makes my old 11-87 seem unbelievably slow in a side by side comparison.

Mil Dots: The formula works with Yards, Meters r whatever. If you measure the target in meters the range will be in meters, if you measure the target in yards the range will be in yards, if you measure the target in inches the range will be in inches, if you measure the target in fathoms the range will be in fathoms.........

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <>
Roasting in the Heat in Parched, West Virginia USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 20:41:10 (EDT) 

Torsten - OK lets see how bad my German is:

Hammer 2 here is Adler 1
Fire mission over
direction - 6400 - range - 3800 - shoot
direction (correction?) - 150 right - shoot
full mission - 3 groups - FIRE

Well 6years in Deutschland and my deutsch/englisch worterbuch haven't gone completely to waste!
Oh and I did pick up on the Bavarian use of 2.

Russ - Mossberg 500A

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 20:50:36 (EDT) 

Man missed a day and the world of debate goes crazy!!

Torston - I've got to train with you man! Mountail cottage, range off the front porch, and those lovely women!

Torsten, Scott - On bipods, we issue them in the rare event they can use them. Under the normal circumstances of a stalk into FFP (final firing position for the acronym impaired:-)), the sniper team will not be able to assume a low prone postion. And Jim, they will not carry a ruck sack in the stalk. They may carry a ruck to a hide site in the dark, but day stalk? The bipod we use is the Harris. It is the tightest and most versitle, in my opinion, for this business. We have tried the others and don't care for them. On positioning, Torsten has the same process we use. Settle the butt into the shoulder, push with the toes into a neutral bipod position. Too much forward push and the recoil impulse launches the weapon up while the round is still in the barrel. Pull back tension, and the shooter has a feeling the stock is not settled and at the last minute pushes forward with his shoulder thus "bucking" the weapon into a high left shot.

On the sling, we use the standard leather military sling in conjunction with "cross sticks" for shots from the high prone to high kneeling positions. The best cross sticks, that I have found, are made using the thin hollow tent poles. Join three with a length of 1/8" bungee and tie off. Repeat with the other cross stick. Join the two with suspension line and collapse. They now can be used in a high prone to high kneeling position. Another item is the ever present sand sock. Use this as a recoil damper on any item, boulder, log, tree branch, etc. Just our techniques for consideration.

Scott - On slope firing, lay across the slope as much as possible, or suck it up and use the Creedmore position (Hee Hee). On slings, recommend you carry one. Better to have and not need than to need and not have!

Russ - Stick with the McMillian stocks man. That gives the rest of us a chance to beat you when you stock debedds itself on a hot day of stalking!! ;-)

Mr. Bain - We have used H&S Precision stocks since 1987 when they first came out. Our stocks have survived 50,000 rounds + and still shot moa or smaller. That includes those stocks that took 1000 foot free falls by students that released the wrong quick release during an airborne operation. We even had one sniper team use their "dropped" weapon for a final shot and hit the target at 575 meters with the first shot. That's accuracy and durability. Try that Russ with that McMillian!

Mr. Bain - Thanks for reminding me of the "Bung Ho" fiasco!

Open question, why would you want an objective that is twice the diameter of the scope barrel? The barrel limits the light too!

Torsten - We call them rabbit rounds and use the technique to great success! On the glass, the glass right in front of your weapon will prevent the hit. A test was conducted in 85 using glass 1 meter in front of the muzzel and they did not register a hit on a target 5 foot by 5 foot at 200 meters. I guess you could interpolate that to 2.5 feet by 2.5 feet at 100 meters. They were using M118 Match (not Special Ball) during the test. Use count down, blow your glass with shotgun (ye gods I just screwed up!) and blow the far glass with observer round. Thus 3 - shot gun, 2 - observer shoots, 1 - sniper shoots, and explosive entry is made. A way, not perfect and takes practice.

TorF - We played with the .17 cal and didn't like the round. The round doesn't impart any energy dump until approximately 48 inches of penetration (no smart comments girls!). Too fast and small, and NO I am not talking about knock down power! The effect is the same as a hypodermic needle thrust into the arm as opposed to slowly pushed into the arm (OUCH)!

Depity Dave - Remember, you have to wait for the gas to operate a bolt, but you can operate a bolt manually as fast as you want. :-)

Gramps - So that's where my walker got off to. I've been looking for it all over the place. The guys think I lost it so I wouldn't have to be a walker on the stalks anymore.

.50 Cal or 14.5mm, which is best? Hold hard guys!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, July 23, 1998 at 23:10:42 (EDT) 

To Bill: Good idea. I want one. I'll expect everyone here to buy one, too. (Hint, hint.)

To Torsten: On your "scenario," .223, .308, or .300 would do fine with the right bullet. Federal has some "special" stuff (LE only, drat it all!), and I see in the current issue of TS magazine that Hornady has something called TAP Urban and TAP Precision (again, LE only -- bloody Hell!). Most (all?) of the commercially available (read, "us civilians can get our hands on it") stuff is questionable at best in make-it-through-glass-and-stay-on-target tests, but these newer cartri> an that I see being introduced are made to do exactly what you presented. I think Remington has some special-purpose ammo along these lines also. Oh... now I see, scanning down, that Scott said about the same thing. Thanks for the back-up, Scott.

To TorF: Do I take it that, like in my background of armor ("tanks"), that APDS is "Armor-Piercing, Discarding Sabot?" I don't suppose you could get some to me the next time I'm in Germany, could you? (Hint.) Actually, the manufacturer of this stuff (Olin) is in East Alton, IL, only about 3.5 to 4.0 hours from me... I'll never be able to get any of the stuff.

And, you're absolutely right on your comment about ballistic cams.

Oh! Then you posted the URL (Universal ResoustufLocator) for the Winchester APDS round! Thank you!

To Kodiak: That's about my feeling, too. I hate the wait (although you get used to it when it comes to "things gun"), but I think McMillan stocks are excellent.

To Rick: Thanks for the excellent recommendation on McMillan stocks! I'll be sure to buy another one! :-) On your 3-2-1 -- "cool" man, very cool. Very testicular. I like it.

To Nathan, Deputy Dave, or any LE type here: Any chance of one of you getting me some of this glass-busting, LE-only ammo to test and review?

To all: Shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun.

(There. Just wanted to "participate" up until the deadline on Sunday.)
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 01:31:18 (EDT) 

On page 62 of the current issue of Tactical Shooter is an article on the Pentax 8.5-32x scope. I have personally confirmed, months ago, with both Pentax and Burris, that Burris makes this scope on contract for Pentax. Further, it's the exact same scope (also personally confirmed) that Burris makes. This scope, the 8.5-32x, is the one I bought for my project rifle in .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. It wasn't cheap ($500 at dealer cost)... I say again, it was NOT cheap... but I was SO impressed by it, I turned right around and bought a 6-24x for my Savage 110FP Tactical! A few of you wrote to me asking about my Burris -- well, if you read the TS article, you'll know all you ever wanted to.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 02:00:33 (EDT) 
Nice to see the old crew is still here and lively as ever. Our friend Paul Headlee pulled me away to go fight the political battles over on Atlantic Monthly, and I've been at it for a week! :o)

Say, fellas, since we've discussed handguns at length, and are now into shotguns (hell, as long as it's got a magazine tube and 12-ga. barrel, boys), do ya suppose we could discuss SUBMACHINE guns next? Huh? Puh-leease?! How 'bout it? *sniff* *snivel* Maybe breaching charges, too?!
Matt <>
GA USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 04:43:39 (EDT) 

Information on the 1998 Tactical Marksman's Match of which the second Sniper Country-affiliated "Hathcock Charity Shoot" will be a part, is at the D&L Sports website (just follow the link I've included).

To Matt: After the shotgun discussion (WHICH WILL STAND DOWN AT 2400 HOURS CENTRAL TIME THIS SUNDAY), we'll be moving into such "applicable for a sniper website" topics such as cratering charges, tactical nukes, flame throwers, and the ever-popular "thousand and one" uses of det cord.

Also, to you artillery wannabes, click here and get yourselves squared away properly.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 05:03:54 (EDT) 

On Glass !
Scott,Steve,Depity Dave,Rick and Russ.
I was invited to the test at a Police indoor range and I shot the last glass panes they had. Every big Ammo manufacturer was there and had anything from .308 to .50 Raufoss. Man they dusted themselfs with glass.
It was pretty depressing to them to see me put 3 shots into the head size target even when fireing at an angle to the glass.
No I didnt get the contract. It was dropped for political reasons. But I can shoot out of a closed building(window) into a closed buliding and hit the perp.
How ? E mail me and I may share it with you. It is the KISS aproach to things !

good going, you can call my back up any day!

Sure would be fun, but my wife would´nt be to happy if we played all day long with the rifles. If you want a demo of the above, it could be arranged after Shot 99´.

Liftoff! Were leaving on our vacation today.
I´ll be back on the 8th of August. I already put up the claymores on my perimeter, and we had our Rottweiler on Joguhrt and Jello for the last three weeks. Man is he hungry.

I´ll see if I find an Internet Cafe to bug you guy´s. If not , take care and watch out !
Torsten <>
Deutschland - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 05:15:09 (EDT) 


Aufschlag nicht beobachtet, kommen !
moving fast on the, Autobahn in Germany - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 05:20:48 (EDT) 

Swiss Commando Raid.

Probably the toughest international military competition.
Oslo, Norway - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 06:41:15 (EDT) 

Does anyone have an option on the value of having your bore polished (ala Blackstar)? Does it wear the bore down excessively or cause the barrel to "open-up" earlier?! How does Blackstar's process compare to "fire lapping" the bore?

I Just wanted to also put my two cents in on the soon dead shotgun debate.
For semi-auto I'll go with Benelli or nothing. (It is "recoil" operated, not gas by the way).
For pump action I'll chose an 870 over a Mossberg 590.

I've had a 870 and a 590 for many years now and I have to say the 870 is built far better and feels more solid but the 590 has never jammed on me either. The Benelli M1 I recently got is awesome but exspense but it beats the heck out of an 11-87.

Say, can we talk about muskets next, please, can we, can we?! (Sorry, previous life flash-back)

Keep'em in the 10X guys.
Brian Middleton <>
Irvine, CA USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 07:25:18 (EDT) 

SHOTGUN: let us not become closed minded... I have seen
more snipers with shotguns than .22/378 wthby's, 24x glass,
ghille suits, computer programs, a jar of moly in their pockets, etc, etc....

GLASS: The closer suspect is to glass the better. The farther the shooter is from the glass is also better. I have
been practicing with windshield glass @ 100yds. Have had
no prolems with headshots (tee target). This is shooting from the same height as the windshield, directly in front of the car. Angle shots should prove to be more interesting.
Joey Bagodonuts
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 10:05:40 (EDT) 

Torsten: Have a great vacation, JELLO is the word to remember! BTW our cat is named Tripod!

Rick: It's MY walker, custom made by my young and very beautiful wife, (trying to get laid here guys)!

Sarge: Thanks for the translation, never spoke German that well, Vietnamese was a little more in line for me!

Depity Dave: CAMMO color for the walker man! Use urban for your situation!

Scott: Watch where you rub my Hoppe!

Tom: Correct young man!

All: DO NOT EVER GET IN A TYPING CONTEST WITH CONDOR! YOU HAVE NO, REPEAT NO, CHANCE OF WINNING! (He even spells correctly too)! Shhhhheeeeeezzzzzzz Younguns

Out here
Gramps <>
Over Yonder, Totally Confused USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 10:32:47 (EDT) 

Gramps <>
Cut-N-Shoot, Here USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 10:35:11 (EDT) 
Russell: Oh MAN, I don't know where you dug that site up (the arty stuff), but DON'T believe a WORD of it!!! I don't know what time period they were discussing, and maybe I didn't read far enough, but what I saw is rife with mistakes and misinformation!! I speak now not as a "sniper wannabe" (which I am, I guess...), or as an "arty wannabe," but as a full-fledged, school-trained, almost-three-years-in-a- firing-battery, Marine Corps 0802 Field Artillery Officer! It's so wrong I don't know where to start...although on a related note, the German call-for-fire you were batting around earlier with Torsten seems very similar to our own. Interesting...many countries take different approaches to the FO's role, and the techniques he uses. I'm always curious about the nuances.
Matt <>
GA USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 11:57:05 (EDT) 
All: A little off topic, (I know that's hard to believe about me) :-) but I thought I'd share this sad thought with you. I went to a service station/store today to fill up my trucks tank. When I went inside to get some ice cream the young lad that waited on me commented on my "T" shirt, (I was wearing a POW/MIA shirt that Michele gave me last month, it has the wall and some comments on it), he asked what the wall was and what POW/Mia's were. I told him and asked if he hadn't learned about Vietnam in school. He said no that they skimmed over the war there because it wasn't very important! I sat with him for a while and told him about the unimportant war and came to discover that his Uncle was killed there. I foundhis name in a book on the wall that was there in the store. The kid broke down, cried and when I left he had a new outlook. The point here is that with Klinton and the PC outlook of the world today we are all being pushed by the wayside! It's a sad day for Gramps!

Out here
Gramps <>
Upset, Carolina USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 12:02:38 (EDT) 

Rick said: "Open question, why would you want an objective that is twice the diameter of the scope barrel? The barrel limits the light too!" AMEN Brother! Saaayyy it again!

Steve: On slings. I agree having one is necessary. I just do not believe in keeping it on the rifle. This may be a hold over of my hunting days. A shoulder slung rifle is a useless one! I do use an MRT in High Power. I want a Turner badly. The Keepers are getting mighty loose you see.

Rick: Do you train the troops to use a shorten sling loop (about 8" long) or do you have them keep a full sling on the weapon? When prone supported, I have found little use for a sling, but it is a Godsend in other positions. I guess my consern would be relying on it to much and having it get in the way the rest of the time. What do the pros think? Gentleman, speak up!

Dep Dave: I'll stick with my pump. Less tendancy to jam when it gets crazy. Yes, I know, that statement alone is open to argument, which is probably why I made it! But as for the relative speed, I'd rather fire controlled aimed rounds quickly, than unaimed rounds speedily. For me personally that means a pump. It would be too easy to just toss rounds out with a semi! I am thinking specifically of my last deer hunt. Shot one, hit the buck in the lungs, shot two took him in the rump as he tore away and anchored him before he could leave the property. Time: about 1.5 seconds. Crpies-a-mighty, how fast do I need to be? Over one the next farm the guy was using an 1187 and it sounded like a war zone. He never did hit the deer!
Scott <>
USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 12:47:25 (EDT) 

I am starting to construct my ghillie suit, and was wondering if anyone could tell me if it's better to leave the burlap strips in strips or let them unravel.
Drew Anderson <>
USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 12:54:00 (EDT) 
Ohhh Ruuusss...speaking of shotguns...I think your head will explode shortly. I know a gent that is working on a short range sniper system based on the Savage 210 Shotgun!!! Oh the dillema this will cause you! You love Savage, but do not care to discuss shotguns on this page...he hee heee. I love it. When he gets around to finishing this thing, and testing it, I'll make sure YOU are the first to know!

Russ you said: "On your "scenario," .223, .308, or .300 would do fine with the right bullet." I'd have to respectfully disagree. Shooting through double pane, a yard or so in front of the muzzle, and then expecting the round to penetrate double pane at the target and hit him/her, is not too likely, no matter what round you use. If you had the time, you'd be better off taking out the near glass and replacing it something that looked natural, even platic sheet. Ricks Idea looks to be about the only way to assure a "one" shot hit on target. It actually takes three shots, but the designated shooter's bullet is likely to be the only one that will connect. Can you all say: Three, Two, WU...

By the way, I have heard that LE is not having the best of luck with some of the specialty rounds in discussion. Can any of you veryfiy this. Problems with zero and penetration seem to be an issue.
Scott <>
USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 12:58:24 (EDT) 

Scott - We have them carry the sling seperately and use only the loop main part, not the tail for sling arms. The sling works well when there are no other means of support or in conjunction with a cross stick postion. Some guys use the sling as a loop during a crawl. I don't care for that technique because of lose of control of the weapon.

Drew - Let the strips fray and use totally seperated strings of burlap inconjunction with the strips. This will give you a texture similar to nature. Use a random pattern, and DON'T use every square inch of your netting for burlap. This causes a wooly booger effect and creats a new unnatural shape. Use most of the net for attaching natural camouflage as you move through your stalk.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 13:37:18 (EDT) 

Thanks for the Arty back up !

Gramps, keep your Jello stiff !

I´m sure I wont miss you bunch of triggerpullers !

Torsten <>
Germany - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 15:11:49 (EDT) 

Drew, its personal preference, my suits have always used
unraveled burlap. It "softens" the outline (IMHO).

I know folks whom swear by either method, but the majority
of folks I know remove the strips...

Capt Jeff <>
CenterOfThe World, Microsoft USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 17:00:24 (EDT) 

To Scott: (on slings)
I like the big heavy slings but I must caution you about those big keepers. If you use them in service rifle competition you may find yourself disqualified from the match. Some silly new rule. You better take several sizes of keepers and use the biggest one that is legal. Do this before the match starts. If you read anything by Jeff Cooper you should know about the Ching Sling setup. I have never actually tried one but I see no reason why they should not work. The big benefit is that the Ching is much faster to get into.
Steve <nato@!>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 18:15:59 (EDT) 
Steve: Like I said, I use an MRT, which is visually identical to the Turner. It is pretty standard in size. I use the sling method as explained by M.Sgt Owens in his book. Marine style. The keepers are normal.

As far as using a sling in the field, I personally wouldn't care to rely on one. Too combersome to get into in a hurry. One can take a good sitting position with out one, and supported prone does not really require one. The short loop is a good idea though. Things are probabbbly different for police. Then again, I'd hate to have a good tight sling hold for TEN HOURS!

Off to do a little training! Everyone have a great weekend!
Scott <>
USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 18:30:15 (EDT) 

On the question of the two glass window shot. I attended a LE sniper school put on by Federal last Oct. and they recommend that you break the first window with a first shot a split second before the kill shot. They also claimed that the new "TACTICAL" round does just what it is supposed to do. They told of a shooting in LA where an officer took out a bad guy through double payne glass where the perp was over 15ft beyond the glass. They also recommend that you shoot the round and record the data in your log books because it does shoot different. Like someone said "practice,practice"

I'll put the arm on a buddy of mine who is now in charge of the TACT TEAM and see if I can get a box of the TACTICAL ammo. If I do I'll let you know and we can talk about how to get it to you. Also I will get you more info on the bi-pods this weekend. I've been out of town and just got back.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 19:41:13 (EDT) 

Hey Russ:
Yes, I went and asked the "old man" for a departmental letterhead authorizing a personal purchase of armor piercing discarding sabot rifle rounds, and said I might share them with a buddy of mine. After I got thrashed, I was told that I can now look forward to an exciting career in the dispatch dept.............. (Just kidding)
Seriously, there are some magazines out there that sell some pretty neat stuff for LE use only. I am not going to go nuts anytime soon, as I will be a rookie cop on mandatory 1 year probation and it might be hard for me to justify a personal purchase of smoke grenades, specialty 12 gauge ammo, "smoke pots" that pour out 100+ thousand cubic feet of smoke (man, the uses I could some up for.....never mind), and armor piercing rounds. I hope you understand. I do understand that I am exempt for the Brady Bill which is nice. Concealed carry permits are available in Okla, but if you are LE you are exempt from that, too. -------------I'll tell you what. If I ever get to try out any neat toys as part of my service (or otherwise, he he he) I'll make sure that I let Sniper Country know.
On the video tape "Deadly Effects" , a gun video, various bullets are fired through auto glass at close range with lousy results. A .50 BMG round was fired through very light brush and just a few short yards downrange it was already starting to keyhole. I saw a videotape of a hostage situation in LA in which some perp was holding a bunch of people hostage, with the hostages in kneeling positions. All was plainly visible behind some type of plate or plexi glass store front. A sniper fired a round at the man but evidently the glass deflected the bullet, and several hostages died as a result. Maybe a solution would be a near simultaneous sniper shot. One round to shatter the glass and degrade its physical rigidity and integrity and another round immediately after to actually ensure a hit on the target. Another possibilty---sneaking a cop with a shotgun (gasp!) close to the window, blowing the window out with 00 buck or maybe slightly smaller shot and then a rifle round at the suspect. Naturally, this would take VERY close coordination and a lot of practice. If I learn anything new and interesting at academy I'll be sure to fill you guys in. PS.........anybody have any pet LE appropriate loads for .40 S&W?
Illigitemum non carborundum and good shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 19:44:45 (EDT) 
Unravel the burlap yourself - if you wait for it to unravel you will retire before it finishes. Don't get the bright idea to shove it in the washer or dryer - You will need to borrow a new suit to hide from the wife unit.
Hicks <>
Bellevue, WA USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 20:49:20 (EDT) 
I have been looking for a 600 to 800 yard range in the
Houston, TX area but have not been able to find one.
Does anyone know of one?

bob twist
houston, tx
bob twist <>
houston, tx USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 21:04:25 (EDT) 

Rick, which Harris bipod are you using?
Sarge <>
Area 51 , NM USA - Friday, July 24, 1998 at 22:54:00 (EDT) 
I'm still wrestling w/ this 6.5mm project. Found an Accumax II 6.5mm, 8 twist, LV contour on my carport a couple of days ago. Unfinished lenght 28".

Got a Model Seven Hundred SA and a Rem. Sportsman SeventyEight LA to work with. Both standard boltface. Also have an HS Precision SA stock from a Rem. Police w/ devcon bedding in place from the previous factory barreled action. In other words, I'm gathering pieces for a 6.5mm something or other.

I'm thinking of a 6.5mm/08 or maybe a 6.5mm/284. A highpower friend says the '08 is only good out to 600 yds. I don't understand that one. I figured it would easily stay supersonic a 1000 and be a good long range cartridge.

How about the 6.5/284? Would that work w/ an SA using 140gr Match of VLDs? Can the barrel channel be opened up to accomodate the LV contour? Also, I'm assuming the 284 case would allow for greater powder capacity and therefore a little more horsepower.

TorF,Al, and Jeff gave some great input re: this subject, but I still can't make up my little mind. I've even thought of pulling the 300WM barreled action out of my Police rifle and making it a 6.5mm/06 or '06 Imp using the Sportsman 78 LA. That might be a dumb move but it wouldn't be the first time.

Could I have some more input 'cause I'm betting the folks that post on the Roster know more about this than yours truely.

Thanks for any additional assistance.

Jeff A.

P.S. What's a healthy barrel breakin procedure on a new matchgrade barrel? I plan to shoot moly exclusively.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 01:01:32 (EDT) 

I would appreciate any feedback, experience etc. from those of you who have experimented with any of the 37cal by 50 cal loads, I. E. .375/.50, .378\.50 ?
Jim Craig <>
Cowboy USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 01:01:40 (EDT) 
To Nathan Hendrickson:
Nate,if you are thinking about loading your own for duty ammo don't do it.If you are involved in a shooting your in for major headaches.If the bad guy lives he'll probably sue you.If he dies his family will probably sue you.
If they find out that you were using your own home made ammo it will only make things worse.You'll be made out to be a psycho cop just waiting for a chance to shoot someone.
Do yourself a favor and carry good factory ammo like Federal Hydroshocks.
USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 01:26:29 (EDT) 

You did pass the MMPT, right?

Nobody, but nobody, who has more than two rocks in their heads loads their own for self-defense or LE work. First, you'll get your ass slammed by the defense attorney in the criminal action. Second, you'll get your ass slammed by the plaintiff's attorney in the civil action against you and your department. Third, you'll be fired and possibly prosecuted yourself. Am I clear on this one?

I really hope what you meant was "loads that would approximate LE loads, but not loads that I would ever use on- or off-duty." That WAS what you meant, wasn't it?


Mr. Bain <>
No, I don't think so USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 02:36:11 (EDT) 


Not wishing to repeat what others have said, BUT!!!!!
Select a good comercially avaliable round (I use the Remington GS40SWB 180 grain Golden Saber) that works well in your gun. Then get together with some similer componits and a chronograph. Develop a practice load that works like your duty load and Practice, Practice, Practice! I can hear the perp's attorney now as he says "Now let me get this right, Officer Henderickson, you couldn't find a cartridge that you felt would do enough damage, one that you felt was deadly enough, so you developed your own special extra distructive, extra deadly cartridge!"

You are the one who brought up shooting your smooth bore fast, not me, we would all prefer to take slow aimed shots if the oppertunity exsists. In addition what happens to your second and subsiquent shots if you only have one hand avaliable to operate your slide action?

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Off for the Week End (YEA!!!) in beautiful, West Virginia USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 07:15:34 (EDT) 

To Jeff A. re. 6.5mm.

Go for 6.5-08/.260Rem in the 700SA. It's got the best accuracypotentional.

Loaded with 130gr VLD at 3000fps or 140gr VLD at 2800fps you have rounds that will do +/-1500fps at 1000yds.

There is no need to push things faster using bullets with these ballistics. VLD-bullets seems to be most accurate in the 2600-2900fps speedrange.

With the 6.5-08 you'll get better barrellife than any other 6.5mm round except the ballistic twin, 6.5X55.

Oslo, Norway - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 09:05:11 (EDT) 

Great topic of glass. THIS IS A TOPIC THAT WE SHOULD KEEP GOING!!! A big factor people don't think about when shooting through glass, most importantly when in a hostage situation. Is the secondary cone of glass that is produced by the round penetrating the glass. The glass is just as lethal as the round. numerous hostages have been killed by the glass, and not the round. Keep that in mind. You need to understand where that secondary cone of glass is going to go. Each angle and type of glass is different.

Sgt. G
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 09:33:06 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain: I take most everyhting to heart (including the diet of Jello ) reccomended here. I want to understand a comment you made in regard to reloading. I am almost(read not quite) sure of what you meantby not using handloads whether you are or aren't an LE(read paid to carry a weapon). I am not sure how this applies to me, the not even wannabe an LE just a guy who would like to train for the job. Short: Why wouldn't I want to reload?

I am not sure anybody would want an old dude like me as a tactical shooter. And hearing that a rookie gets paid less than 30K falls a little short of a Rocket scientists pay.
tom <>
old, virginny USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 11:27:00 (EDT) 

The taking of life is a very serious matter, especially when the person doing the taking is a government agent or officer. Use of force, especially deadly force, is strictly construed under the law. Those who would "load their own" for use in a fatal confrontation are very likely to be accused of using excessive force. The civil lawsuit will bankrupt you, any criminal action against you will possibly make you a felon, prohibited from ever again owning or using a firearm. My best advice for persons wanting to have defense loads handy in their pistols is two-fold: find out if your jurisdiction allows civilians to use hollow-points; if so, use the same brand and type as the local police.

Please, be careful.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 11:40:00 (EDT) 

To Nathan:
Nate, one more warning here. Don't have your duty gun all tricked out, ESPECIALLY A VERY LIGHT TRIGGER. If you carry a highly customized gun and are unfortunate enough to have to use it you will be in hot water for the same reasons as if you loaded your own ammo,probably more so. There are a few exceptions though such as Trijocon night sights,Pachmeyer and Hogue grips.Not much else however.
USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 12:31:02 (EDT) 
To Brian: The process BlackStar employs puts a taper from the breech to the muzzle in your bore, and removes the majority of tool marks that were made when rifling the bore. It is a thousand times better on your bore than fire-lapping, which unnecessarily accelerates erosion of the throat in your chamber. If you're going to lap, I recommend NOT fire-lapping. And lapping will NEVER get a bore as smooth as what the BlackStar procedure does. However... I think regular lapping lives up to most shooters capabilities; that is, I don't think most of us would regularly realize the "additional" (?) benefits of what BlackStar does over a good lapping job, done the old-fashioned way. This said, though, some of us are: 1) good shooters, and 2) like to spend money. I've had two barrels done, Scott has had it done to one (or maybe he just had it frozen, I can't remember)

To Matt: I didn't read the whole thing, just found it. Still, artillery IS important to military snipers, so if you can find us a good site, we'll put it here as a link. Thanks, Matt.

To Gramps: I'm glad you did that, and thanks for sharing the story with us. Seriously. See my comments at the end of this post.

To Scott: Yes, and I stand by what I said. So MUCH of shooting is "the bullet" -- not velocity, B.C., or whatever... especially when it comes to down-range performance. I refer you again to the specialty bullets available to LE only. It's not anything else, it's the bullet. Yes, a .223, .308, or .300 would do the job on glass with the right bullet. There's no doubt about it. I haven't heard of any problems in the LE community with these rounds (not that there aren't any, though).

To Pat: Thanks for the ammo assist, if you can pull it off. I'm buying a scanner today, so look for more articles on here to have pictures included.

To all: On this shotgun thing. Listen, I started out, at eight-years-old, with a 12 gauge. I was shooting trap and hunting with a shotgun before I did much else. I've probably done, collectively, MORE shooting with a shotgun than with a rifle. I like shotguns. Love ‘em, gotta have ‘em. I've never shot anything BUT a 12 gauge, and never will -- unless it's a 10 gauge!

To Nathan: Kodiak and Mr. Bain are right. NEVER load for self-defense work, on or off duty. Massad Ayoob did a great piece (I copied and saved it for posterity) on what happens in court to people who shoot other with handloaded ammunition. As much as "I" reload my own, on my Dillon XL 650, I never use anything but Remington Golden Saber, Hornady XTP, or Federal Hydra-Shok in my "defense" guns. (There's nothing wrong with PMC Starfire and Winchester SXT ammo, either.) And if you shoot, shoot to kill, for litigation's sake. Dead men don't testify. If you've got a reason to shoot in the first place, you have a reason to kill -- so do it. Yeah, the family might bring suit against you, but the perpetrator sure won't be testifying against you. And for what it's worth, Nathan, "I" thought you were asking about factory loads.

To SGT Gimmellie: Yes, the glass topic is a good one. I have... uh, I mean... "a friend" has... some military AP bullets pulled from some GI 7.62x63mm ammo. This "friend" might just have to do some of his own testing. Anybody got some extra windshields laying around?


Okay, I saved this for last.

Last night, I went to the local opening of Saving Private Ryan. I'm VERY well aware of the Sullivan Act (there's also a movie on the Sullivan brothers if you folks are interested -- it's an old one, though).

One, up front, there's a "gratuitous Hathcock shot." I saw it coming (no pun intended), and likely you folks will, too. However, the rest of the movie is very good.

The opening scenes of the beach assault are... well... um... "attention getting."

This is the best war movie I have ever, ever, seen. Period.

I wish, from the bottom of my heart, that world leaders would see this movie and take it to heart... but of course, they won't.

Further, my personal feelings about Mr. Clinton were exacerbated by the opening beach scenes in the movie.

I cried like a baby at the end of the movie. Several times DURING the movie (especially the beach scenes), I felt uncomfortable (I rarely feel uncomfortable at movies). All the !@#%# &* kids we get here on Sniper Country (when of course they SHOULD NOT BE HERE), should see this movie. All the "gee, it'd be so ‘cool' to go to war" rug-rats might wake up and get a dose of "life" if they saw this movie.

Scott Powers -- some EXCELLENT scenes of bolt-work by the left-handed American sniper.

The recent comments about "fast shooting" -- well, this movie reinforced what I've always known, that you can never EVER have "enough" firepower. Period. And on what the Chandler brothers have been harping on, about the STUPID "tri-burst" feature on the current M16A2 rifles... well, I think you'd agree, against a German MG42, "tri-burst" anything is f**king RETARDED!!! I kept thinking, during the beach scenes, and the scenes in the town later in the movie, how "STUPID" the "tri-burst" concept is! THE UNITED STATES ARMY DOESN'T GET IT, THAT YOU DO "NOT" CORRECT FOR A DEFICIENCY IN "TRAINING" BY USING A PIECE OF EQUIPMENT OR BY MODIFYING ONE!!! I don't know anything about current Marine training, but I know that they used to be BIG on good old-fashioned marksmanship. The Army's marksmanship program, as I've said a hundred times, "sucks!!!"

And concerning the book I'm reading, On Killing by LTC Dave Grossman... well, the "inability to kill" was driven home several times in this movie -- though there was a lot of killing, rest assured. And I think it's very obvious, in the beginning beach assault scene, how you just MIGHT be a little too busy, on occasion -- trying to just stay alive -- to shoot back.

I'll probably see it again, but not yet. It was just too much for me, and I need some time to "get my mind right" (to paraphrase Strother Martin in Cool Hand Luke). If you see it, drop me a line, catch me on ICQ (539642) or on AOL Instant Messenger.

And boy! That sniper kid, left-handed as he was, could really SHOOT! And he had that left-hand use of a right-hand bolt down COLD!!! Wow! Also note, during the "crosshair" scenes, how he WAS applying proper lead on running targets and how the "targets" were getting hit where he was aiming. Dale Dye was the technical adviser on the movie (had a scene in it, too). If you know Dale Dye, and his background, you'll recognize him and appreciate his attention to detail. Tom Hanks will probably get another Academy Award (nomination, at least) for this movie. I was pretty depressed after the movie, went to the store afterward, bought some chocolate fudge brownie ice cream, came home and ate it as I reflected on the movie.

You owe it to yourselves to see it at least once.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 12:49:34 (EDT) 

Sgt G (Rick and others, please chime in):

I'll be honest. I've never taken the whole "secondary cone of glass" concept very seriously, in terms of being dangerous to anyone behind the glass. I've just never really believed that the little pieces of glass would pick up very much of the bullet's velocity---so even if they did hit someone, they might create some small cuts, might do damage to an unprotected eye, but wouldn't have the juice to kill or badly would anyone. I thought it was one of those old wives' tales that go around the shooting community sometimes. I guess you're telling me it's not. Can you give me some more info...places to read up, actual examples, etc? Thanks.

Matt <>
GA USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 13:24:27 (EDT) 

Sarge - On the tripod, we use the short swivel model, I don't have the model number here. If you need it Email me and I'll bring get the model number.

TorF - You are absolutely right about muzzel velocity. Many reloaders push their rounds too fast. Point of interest, bullets melt in the barrel and if the velocity is so high that they can't begin to solidify, then your accuracy and terminal ballistics go to hell. Also, it is interesting to see a bullet leave a smoke trail, then distentigrate mid flight!

Matt - That glass is fatal close up. When I was teaching VIP protection in Saudi Arabia, we would shoot the hell out of a car with manakins inside to show the damage. Main point in that exercise was to get the CAT teams OUT of the target car as fast as possible. I'm triing to get cars and other pieces of glass for a high speed video session for our students. If all works out, I'll let you guys know what I've got. Don't know about a release of the tape. The Gov't is funny about that stuff. From past shots, I can say the cone is about 60 degrees wide and runs almost 90 degrees to the pane of glass. There is slight shift on some glass to match the angle of the bullet. I'll confirm with the video and get back. Guys I'm old and forget things. STAY ON MY BUTT over this OK.

Russ - Once the lefty has the sequence down, he can actually become faster at bolt manipulation due to leverage. Had a SEAL with his left handed bolt go through the course. He changed to one of our guns and liked the right handed bolt better!

My two cents, reload and use trick weapons for paper. If you use self defense, you need two things, factory ammo and factory weapon. Otherwise you will LOSE.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 17:21:43 (EDT) 

On the full auto issue, I spent a couple of weeks in lebanon, 42 months in SEA and various other tours in exotic places with men and guns. TRAINING is most definitely a problem. Having said that, very few men, especially very scared men, can control a shoulder mounted weapon on full auto. Marksmanship tends to go out the window. Full auto has its place on a crew served weapon, for a quick extract, and a few other places but more often than not, it just blows away alot of tree and bush tops. If the services are going to downplay ACTUAL (read that live ammo, not simunitions ) marksmanship training, they never will get it.
Jim Craig <>
Cowboy, USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 18:37:49 (EDT) 
A few years back I had time to test some loads as to penetration. We used glass metal wood and of all things Russian Thistles. The Weeds were place 8' in front of man target at 100 meters. cart were .223 .243 44 magnum(pistol)
270 win and 7mm magnum if I remember them all 7.62x39 was also used. The only rounds that made it to the target were
.223! and 1 keyholed 270. The conclusion was that the small bullets just didn't hit anything. The military 7.62x39 keyholed all around but none stayed on course good enough to reach the target. The weeds were moved to 3'. Dead Guys on all loads!
Car Glass can be penetrated and anything close but give it a few feet.... To shoot through glass up close and then penetrate 2 layers later. My hat's off to you if you can pull it off.
Russ: thanks for the movie review. I wish I could buy you a beer and say...
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 18:39:30 (EDT) 
Mr. Bain: You restated your original point well. As sure that alot of children on this site do not understand the serious of taking a life. I agree with sentiment. What I am asking you to display in the public domain is a basis for and an education about a civilian defending his home using handloaded equipment.

If it is true that I must contact the local LE in order to obtain a bullet class that I can use in defense of my family.

I am more apt to take your advice if I understood the reasoning behind your statement. I currently lean toward the most accurate least penetrating round I can get my hands on. But if your saying that with a slight modification I may assure that my family maintains a father image in the home after he has capped some @##hole who has just tried to rape his wife or daughter or his 7 year old boy.

I think this type of info is very pertinent to this site. It allows those of us not paid to be in this position to ferret out data that will make us who are law biding, sensible/cognizant and responsible individuals from doing something stupid. Please arm us with details.

This subject deserves more thought than does the 9mm vs 45cal, 308 vs 30-06, naugahyde vs chickenbones discussion.


Oh by the way the movie Mr. Taylor speaks of is not only exceptional in detail and getting it's point in place and hit home, it brings the facets of war into a very crisp perspective (read: I too was wiping tears at the end.)

But I have a ? how come the guy used it his left hand to operate the bolt, but used his right eye to focus? Is this common among left handed people or was I mistaken? Check it out! (yes I one of those geeks who has stuff like this pop out at them all the time.)
tom <>
In the Dominion, of Virginny USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 21:07:16 (EDT) 

Jim - Well said on the full auto deal. If it was up to me, I'd take full auto OFF of most the weapons in the US Army. They waste rounds and causes no end to problems. I have demostrated a number of times that a man on semi can dump a 30 round mag more acurately and in almost the same length of time as a man shoting full auto. Under stress there is no such thing as digital dexterity. You either have the trigger to the rear for who knows how long (usually empty mag) or you don't squeeze the trigger at all. The three round burst was the army's way of holding down the spray and pray syndrome of combat. You can not believe the number of guys that went through imediate action drills for jammed weapons that were actually empty! Jim, I am however, diappointed in you that you didn't eat my lunch over the rucksack comment! It was ill typed and only part of a thought. The comment was meant to relay the difficulties of rucksacks in stalks and why the sniper should be prepared with bipods or cross sticks. Not that the rucksack would never be in the vicinity of a sniper. Sorry for the bluntness of that post. It really didn't mean to come out that way.

Bill - Your comment on the deflection of rounds through brush has been proven a number of times and is one of the reasons we teach our snipers to use "stand off" as much as possible. Between the deflection and obscuring muzzle signature, as well as confusing the eye for an observer, it is the only way to go.

On the glass thing. What do you guys think of placing a medium between the glass and target and another behind the target to register glass cone location and spread during the video? I was thinking of using the plastic wrap type material for minimal bullet deflection. How about giving me some thoughts on this matter.

Hold hard guys and I'll try to use complete thoughts next time!!!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 21:21:52 (EDT) 


Just came back from seeing "Saving Private Ryan" myself. Simply the best, most realistic (read: graphic, but not gratuitously---just accurately) depictions of combat I have seen, and a lot of very serious, pertinent issues brought up. And yes, my wife was telling me to be quiet because I was on the verge of screaming obscenities in the theater at Corporal Umpum. I agree fully with the guy who said that all the punk kids and national leaders, or anyone who takes war lightly, or sees it as "glorious" ought to be forced to sit through this movie.

I'll look for an arty link for you, Russ. Got a couple ideas.

Matt <>
GA USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 21:25:59 (EDT) 

Regarding the stand on reloads for defense. Were I a civilian protecting my home I would swear until I heard the gallows trip that the tricked out gun and the loads were my favorite target recipe and the weapon was pressed into service out of neccessity due to the outrageous actions of the perp. Would not work for LE or possibly very shaky for concealed carry permittees I suppose. This tape will destroy in 5 minutes.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 21:27:07 (EDT) 
Tom Scott:

I like reloading and recommend it to those who shoot a lot and wish to cut their costs. Not for defense loads, however. The "cost" of using handloads for defensive purposes is very high, especially when compared to the cost of a few hundred rounds of good factory defense loads. I recommend shooting the same factory load as the police in your area (assuming your jurisdiction allows you to even shoot hollow points) so that no prosecutor or plaintiff's lawyer can claim that you are using more force than necessary or are intending on causing or inflicting more pain or suffering than necessary (if it's good enough for the cops in your area, it's good enough for you).

Mr. Bain <>
Antyime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, July 25, 1998 at 23:55:19 (EDT) 


Many thanks again for your response re: the 6.5mm. I have decided to take your advice and go w/ 6.5mm/08.

I spent all day today w/ Mr. Gerald Boutin. This gentleman is an incredible human being as well as a master riflesmith and shooter. I could sit and listen to Hook talk all day long. And watching him work on rifles is like watching Michaelangelo paint chaple ceilings.

He said go w/ 6.5mm/08, as well. So that's it. All that remains is to locate a steel TG/Floorplate assembly and I'll have all the parts.

Thanks again, TorF.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 01:02:26 (EDT) 

Hey Rick as for a way to check for secondary cone, your best bet is gonna be cardboard. This will allow you to see the angle and exactly how much and how big the piece's are. It will be easier to measure and to figure the angle out. Also you will be able to see if you get any piece's of the jacket of the round going into the cone or were ever it feels like it. this is what we used. It worked pretty good. To bad i need to start digging to find the results.

Sgt. G <SEMPER FI!!!>
USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 08:42:09 (EDT) 

Tom, On Hand Loads: In West Virginia the Supreme Court has held that you can use "as much force as is necessary but no more force than is necessary" to stop a violent confrontation. Police and Security Forces are held to a different standard than civilians, therefore, if a civilian is defending his home (and the U.S. Supreme Court has held that an individule has no obligation to retreat beyond his own home) he SHOULD be able to use whatever he has avaliable and at hand (Hand Loads Included). On the street as a licenced conciled weapons carrier I believe he would be held to a standard similer to that of law enforcement, i.e. factory loads only, and whatever local L.E. is using.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Awake and Alive on a Gloriouw Sunday Morning in, Magnificent West Virginia USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 09:09:33 (EDT) 

Where IS that proof reader??????
Deputy Dave <>
Make That GLORIOUS, West Virginia USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 09:12:54 (EDT) 
To Tom: (Left hand operation, right eye sighting.)
I have not seen the movie yet but, from the way you described the scene I think I can answer your question. What you described was unusual but not necessarily a technical snafu. The rifle stocks on most battle rifles are designed for iron sight use and the height of the comb was set accordingly. When a telescope was added this raises the sighting plane but most of the time it was left to the rifleman to improvise a way to get a good stock weld with these battle rifles turned into sniper rifles. If a shooter is left handed but right eye dominant and has a thin face, the scene you described is probably the best way to achieve a proper stock weld.

To Tom <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 10:28:47 (EDT) 

In the Articles and Commentary section of S/C there's an article which advises there are only two snipers that have ever received the Medal of Honor. What about Lt. Hawkins who earned the Medal posthumously on Betio Island in WWII?
Lance M. Johnston <>
Jonesville, MI USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 10:47:45 (EDT) 
Much of what Dave says may be right, but remember if you do use handloads and shoot someone in your home, Dave isn't a lawyer and won't be there to represent you. Neither will I.

1) Determine whether you may use hollow-point defense loads in your jurisdiction. 2) Determine what the local police are using. 3) Purchase a sufficient amount of these factory loads to run through your gun to satisfy yourself that you will have no jams, etc. 4) Use only these factory loads in your gun for self-defense.

Whatever the cost savings you realize from handloads, it won't be enough to pay your lawyer. . .


Mr. Bain <>
Here, and There USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 11:46:02 (EDT)  Great site keep up the good work.
chris morse <>
paulsboro, NJ USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 13:23:57 (EDT) 

Factory ammo and out-of -the-box guns will kill an intruder just as good as any handloads and custom gun.
By using easily available factory ammo and a stock gun you give the other side less to use against you in the coming court battles.
I love using my own handloads too but for self defense the money spent on a box of a box of factory ammo is a small price to pay for the added security I get in court. A few dollars spent on factory ammo could save you untold thousands of dollars in lawyers fees later on, not to mention headaches and lost sleep.

USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 13:56:52 (EDT) 

To Sniper Country:

DUH!!!!!!!! I would NEVER use handloads in actual duty!!! I went to school and earned a degree in Criminal Justice. I took a lot of law-type classes. Yes, be assured that I am well aware that I would get me and my department sued like all hell get out. What I MEANT, as I am sure some of you know............Glaser, COR-BON, Hydrashock, ------loads, weights, etc..............I am interested in .40 S&W, to be fired out of a Glock 22. Also, are there any "LE friendly" modifications that may be safely made to a Glock besides some grips and night sights?
I am going to see "Saving Private Ryan" this afternoon. I am aware that it has reviewed great. My grandfather went in with the 1st wave at Omaha Beach on June 6th, 1944. He later participated with Patton's drive across France and the subsequent Battle of the Bulge. I am ready to see a realistic WW2 movie. I heard my grandfather's stories so will watch the movie with a critical eye. Like I said, I have heard good things.-------Thanks Russ for the advice via e-mail. I will take it to heart.
Talk to you later and good shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 14:27:15 (EDT) 

Thank you for the info. on handloads vs. the current state of legal affairs. I'll take it to heart. I am surprised by the statement that says some locals don't allow hollowpoints. I guess the idea is to give the perp a gun with good ammo and make the police get kungfu training so he can stop the bullet with his teeth.

Sorry, I won't mention anything about the use of a sh....! oops I almost used a bad gun reference.

I am always learning on this site, sorry I am so blunt with my ?'s.

Tom <>
spun up, in Virginny USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:10:50 (EDT) 

By the way my Savage is turning out to be an excellent action. However, HS, UARS, Six and Choate(qualifier: doesn't make a good stock) do not make a stock that can be used for my short action 12FVSS 308. Still talking to McMillan.
Tom <>
spun up, in Virginny USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:13:59 (EDT) 
No offense taken. I read the original post as merely stating you were on a down slope and shooting a reverse slope. I was responding to that situation. I would also probably not have on a ruck if I were on a final stalk. I woiuld however most likely not have chosen that kind of a position for my final firing position if at all possible. If I were there without a ruck, I would use a sand/dirt filled sock for my forend, dig the butt in and angle my body to achieve a proper stock weld, or If I had sticks, I might make a short tripod with bungee or 550 cord and use that on my forend. I suppose I shouild have been more specific but I try to keep the posts short so the Council doesn"t go hyper. When I was a Team Leader, I wouldn"t let anyone but the Point and slack stay on auto. Everyone else was on semi. AGREE that trained men can discharge a full mag nearty as fast but with greater effeect than in full auto.

Jim ( aka fireball)
jim Craig <>
Cowboy, USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:20:36 (EDT) 

Now there's a topic that hits home with me. I'm one of the freaks that shoot lefthanded and right eye dominant. Grew up shooting lefty and tried several times to convert to righty. Fairly proficient from right side, just prefer the left. With a rifle I can work the bolt as fast or faster than a righty. As far as scope, I've tried both eyes open and one eye open. Prefer the left eye open, although I give up the field of view of the right eye. As far as shooting a shotgun, well I'm a mess there. Tried everything possible, now I just keep left eye open. I'm on the list for an eyeball swap operation, so things are looking up. Can't wait to see the movie after you guys pumped it up so much. Don't see how the lefty sniper could sight with right eye, maybe I could learn something there.

Cheers everyone,
Jesse <>
dexterity, challenged in SoCal - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:22:34 (EDT) 


The investigators for the agency at which I work carry Glock 22s. I've talked to our senior investigator a lot on the .40 and the Glock, and other than getting night sights, there's nothing else that he would recommend.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 15:48:01 (EDT) 

Greetings bull(seye) shooters:

As promised, I tried dipping the bullets of issue ball ammo, 5.56 this time, in spraycan moly lubricant. The ogive on the bullet didn't leave much exposed to be coated, so there wasn't much moly touching the bore. Therefore, inconclusive results. Another shooter had something called "Miss Molly" (?) of spray moly. He didn't seem to think it was doing any good either. My 7.62 155gr load has more exposed ogive, so we'll see with them.

Bone head move of my shooting career yesterday. Shot a 60 shot ISU 300m match with a new club-owned 5.56 bolt rifle, but neglected to confirm the lots of ammo to be fired. Shot a 543 with five repeat five differant lots. It would print in one place for a bit then move somewhere else ... Couldn't figure it out. The top three shooters had 577, 571 and 569 in a steady breeze.

There was a comment that the 6PPC is doing well in ISU shooting. Is this more widely seen? It has all the potential to lick any 5.56 or 7.62.

Finally, the court-ordered counteroffer period has passed on our 1 square mile of land for a range (the one with the eskers and terminal moraine). All that remains is to sign the cheque and contract for the bulldozers! For any Western Canadian shooters, we'll have a field shoot (2, 5, 600 yds) on the 1930's range layout in mid-September. All bull(seye) shooters welcome.

Terry Warner <>
Canada - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 17:17:58 (EDT) 

To Terry, re. 6mm PPC for 300m ISU.

It is the more powerful 6mm BR thats used for the ISU-events. 105-107gr VLD pushed to 2800fps. Norma has this as a factoryload with molycoated bullets.

The US-shootingteam tried the PPC some years ago with one of the BR-gurus (Walt Berger?) as consultant. It didn't prove too successful. Too much winddrift.

Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 17:57:21 (EDT) 

BOB: American Shooting Center has a 600 yd or possibly meter range. You will need some form of target stand to shoot beyond 300 yds. It is located near Westheimer and Highway 6.

Russ: The Blackstar process itself does not taper the bore, it merely removes tool marks, however, they offer a tapered bore barrel. Accumax II, I believe.

Nathan: All the one-shot-stop info i've seen points to the 135gr Cor-Bon.
andrew <>
austin, tx USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 19:13:24 (EDT) 

Nathan here again...
I just got back from seeing the movie "Saving Private Ryan". And yes, like Russ, the beach scenes were especially hard to watch. It was real rough on me because my grandfather was there on Omaha Beach were this opening scene was set. Several times through the movie I myself had to hold back tears. Yes, I also thought of our beloved Commander - In- Chief and his past dealings. I share your thoughts, Russ, I think thats all that I will say for now. ----- I am just now winding down. I too, had to go home and have a smoke and contemplate the movie. There is some sniper work in the movie using a left-handed technique, as well as a classic Hathcock bullet-through-the -enemy-sniper scope scene. Good attention to detail. The Tiger tanks looked real, and were not gray painted M-60's like in other movies. Young people who are blood thirsty should see it and take stock. Perhaps it will do them some good. Nathan out.
Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 19:51:47 (EDT) 
Sgt Johnson:

I'm sure that Lt Hawkins isn't counted because in WWII, as now, officers didn't hold the sniper MOS. He may've been a great shot, had the most "tricked" rifle in the world...but in the eyes of the Corps, he wasn't a sniper unless they say he was. This is just speculation on my part, but I feel confident in it. Simple enough?

Matt <>
GA USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 19:58:05 (EDT) 

To Nathan, re. Tiger 1 tanks

The "Tigers" are modyfied russian T34, just like in Kelly's Heroes.

The SPRyan filmcrew actually shot some scenes with a real, genuine, working Tiger 2 (King Tiger) from the Samour-museum in France. These scenes have unfortunatly not been included in the film.
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 21:21:20 (EDT) 

I just came back from watching Saving Private Ryan and there is not much I can add
to what Mr. Russell Taylor so eloquently described. There is no doubt in my mind that
the generation that fought W.W.2 were the greatest warriors that ever lived, but I knew
that before I saw this movie. I think it would be a good Idea if every man, woman, and
child living today would spend some time and hunt down a living W.W.2 veteran and got
down on their knees and thanked them for the sacrifices that they made for the rest of us.
To Tom: I watched the movie carefully and did not see any evidence of the left-handed
right-eye shooting done by the American sniper. But I did see a glaring technical flaw
in the rifle used by the sniper. It was quite simply, (give me a second to find the right
word here),,,, um, FUBAR , yes that is the right word to use here. Definitely FUBAR.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, July 26, 1998 at 23:40:30 (EDT) 
Great page!
Dion R. Studinski <>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 00:28:40 (EDT) 
To Andrew: The BlackStar electro-polishing process does put a taper in the bore. I wouldn't have said so if it didn't.

If reading it from BlackStar's own website isn't good enough for you, call Mark Stousse and ask him directly. Tell him I referred you to him. Then come back here and report on your enlightenment.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 01:53:22 (EDT) 

Pictures and comments from the making of SPRyan.
Oslo, Norway - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 02:39:07 (EDT) 

Hey guys, I saw "Saving Private Ryan" yesturday. WOW!! The action was incredible. My jaw was wide open during the first 30 min. What was the American sniper using - 1903 Springfield with Unertyl scope? Well I'm no experienced combat critic,however I will be seeing this one again.

Not to change the subject too far - I just bought a new scope for my tactical rifle and I was wondering about some opinions on rings/base type. Standard turn-in or Weaver style? One piece or two piece base?

I am also having trouble finding Black Hills ammo. Does anyone know of a supply house that carries the ammo?
Brent <>
Shreveport, La USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 02:50:15 (EDT) 

To Matt: What was so FUBARed about the 1903A4 Springfield the American Sniper was using? I'm not as "up" on older equipment like some others are, but what was out of place about the gun?

One thing's for sure -- I really got the bug to fire up the ol' M1 Garand again, after seeing this movie. It was great! M1s were EVERYWHERE!!! (happy sigh) Oh, and I just loved all those clip-ejecting "PING!" sounds, during the firefights. Music to my ears. Not tactical, to be sure, but definitely full of nostalgia.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 02:54:52 (EDT) 


That "ping" sound took me back to a better time, as well. The ping of an M1 clip and the smell of Hoppes #9 have more to do with my childhood than baseball OR apple pie! (For that matter, listening to that BAR chug along made me nostalgic, too!) The only thing that was missing was for someone to toss an empty clip on the deck in the middle of a close quarters fight. "HE'S EMPTY------OH S***, HE'S NOT!!!

No complaints on the technical aspects from me, either. The only thing I would point out is that I've shot Thompson SMGs fairly extensively (got a '28 myself), and Capt Miller was doing pretty well with his at fairly long ranges (for an open bolt weapon)!
Matt <>
GA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 05:32:48 (EDT) 

Okay, but Matt... again... what was wrong about the rifle the sniper was using?

Oh, and since we're on a Saving Private Ryan roll at the moment... I have to say... I thought the "tanks are coming, oh s**t!" scene... (hearing them LONG before seeing them) was scarier than ANY, "ANY" Friday the 13th/Halloween/Scream/Slash 'em & Thrash 'em flick that any horror movie director has EVER made. Fear? Yeah... THAT scene was "fear." Oh, and THEN the tanks showed up! No, give me Jason in a hockey mask anyday over THAT "here they come" scene!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 06:53:49 (EDT) 

Another SPR-link.

Very good.
Oslo, Norway - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 07:06:50 (EDT) 

If you want to see a truly impressive 6x24x40 scope, take a look through the Bausch and Lomb Elite 4000. The optics are exceptional. Hope you had a great weekend. Still waiting and waiting from my stock from McMillan. I just wanted to clarify that I did not say that they were bad stocks. As a matter of fact, they are one of the premium tactical stocks in the country, but . . . well, you know the rest of the story.

Take care


Al Ostapowicz <>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 08:46:09 (EDT) 

I checked out the bi-pod a little closer this weekend and its not as good as it first looked. It does have some nice features but its to fragile for field work. The legs will fold up on you if you apply to much forward pressure, it also takes two hands to extend the legs. They would work fine for varmint shooting but not tough for field use. The dealer didnt have any literature available at this time but my take is, they need more work.

Grand Pa,
Great to have you back! I thought you said you didnt have anything to add! a Gillie walker...mmmm now that could extend my coyote hunting another 10 years.

Whats the elevation out in Wyoming where the shoot will be held? I'am at 1450ft above sea level here. Will the difference effect my zero very much?
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 09:58:49 (EDT) 

Russ, you said: Yes, and I stand by what I said. So MUCH of shooting is "the bullet" -- not velocity, B.C., or whatever... especially when it comes to down-range performance." We may not be talking about the same thing here, or maybe we are misunderstanding each other. As I understand it, it would be virtually impossible for a single shooter, with one round, to penetrate a double pane glass five feet from his muzzle and expect the round to travel true for 100 yards, penetrate another double pane storm window and impact the target at point of aim. The issue is many fold. Hitting the first double pane, close to the muzzle, will normally upset the bullets trajectory, causing it to deviate from its intended flight path as it travels down range. The farther it travels, the more displaced it becomes from its intended path. IF it hits the second pane, the likely hood of it maintaining its direction seem very unpredictable as it is already destabilized. The general thought on the subject seems to be that you may hit the target with lot of secondary missiles (glass) but the bullet may veer off and completely miss. If we eliminate that first storm window at the shooters end, things change dramatically, but this shooter side glass is the fly in this equations oinment. Also, you have to take into consideration what material the glass is made of. Cheap glass will prove easier to penetrate with minimum delfection than good plate glass, safety glass, or other types of modern material. Add that space between the panes and you now have another variable. Think of spaced armor on a tank. Even in WWII the Germans used it very effectively to disrupt a projectile before it could hit the main body of the tank. Spaced storm window glass, while much weaker, does have a similiar, if microscopic effect, paticularly on match rounds which simply come apart. Tactical loads are far better, but will still be offset by the glass close to the shooter.

Dave: You are right about one armed shooting! I was only taking into account function and reliability, not the possibility of being wounded. But, just to add to the argument, it is not at all hard to cycle an action single armed with a pump. Of course, you will have to lower the shot gun from your shoulder to do this, but then again, if your strong arm is wounded, you ain’t going to be using a good offhand position anyway! But, for arguments sake, I’ll give you this one. A semi certainly does have its advantages. Then again, were I wounded, the shotgun would hit the dirt and out would come the handgun. I shoot better weak hand anyway!

Russ, you said: "Scott Powers -- some EXCELLENT scenes of bolt-work by the left-handed American sniper. " Russ old boy, I have long ago come to the conclusion that if you ain’t left handed, you are WRONG! I can not wait to see this movie. Am I right in assuming the characters are in my old Division, the 29th? Hooraahh….
By the way, I have come to love a right handed bolt. If prone, I do not even need to let go of the stock. I just use my support hand to operate the bolt.

Matt: Secondary projectiles from glass are deadly serious. They are real. The issue though, were I a police sniper, would be this: Is a hostage better off dead, or blind? Glass will lose its velocity very quickly, but for the first few feet, it can certainly injure anyone it hits. I think if the situation were bad enough, the shooter would have to weigh very quickly how much "collateral" damage was acceptable. In other words, if the perp looked to be about to start shooting, or was shooting, all bets are off. Drop him and worry about the bystanders later. Its a tough world. Being partially blind is better than being totally dead. Crappy choice, but a real one.

Scott Powers <>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 10:28:08 (EDT) 

Rick: I just got back from Storm Mountain Training Center. I took the wife down for a defensive handgun course. I was totally impressed. She went from a total novice, barely able to do the school drills, to a fairly good shot in two days. I am so happy. I now have a shooting partner! She even wants to try competition.

Anyway, This is what I wanted to tell you about: at the end of the first day, I decided to take advantage of the sniper range and get in a little practice. I was testing a new load and things went well to 400 yards. The air was dead calm. Not a leaf was a blowing. Nothing stirred, not even a mouse. The 200 to 400 yard targets are all slightly down slope and somewhat protected by trees. Wind is a factor, but at these short ranges, the shots are cake.

I move up to the 500 yard target and proceeded to miss four time! I couldn’t buy a hit! Low left. I hold right edge, miss left again! I adjust 2 moa. Miss Left! The 500 is on the other side of the tree line. Slight rising shot. No visible wind. The bloody flag ATTACHED to the target was limp!

I say to heck with it, and move on to the 600 which is about 50 feet vertically above the 500. First round miss. Add half a click, fire, center hit. Still no visible wind. I am now at 2.5 moa Right and hitting just fine. I transition to the 700 and get a first shot hit, using the same windage dope.

Now, the kicker is, I go back to the 500 and using the same dope, still miss left!!! The wind on the back side of the treeline had to be pushing 10 mph, but there was not indication I could see. On top of this, it only extended to about 20 feet above the level of the 500 yard target and was not actually AT the target.

Moral of the story, as I am sure Rick will tell everyone in a laughing voice: It ain’t the wind you see kiddies, it is the one you don’t!

Scott <>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 11:04:51 (EDT) 


I'll agree with the MOS/Duty Slot part, but 1Lt. Hawkins was the leader of the Scout Sniper Platoon, Headquarters Co., 2nd Marine Division. My dad was in the Commo Platoon and ate breakfast with him. Pop says he was put in the Sniper Platoon for a while when one of their guys got really sick, but in the end he was glad to be in Commo. Hawkins' snipers lost 50% on Betio. He also said that he didn't like running 8 miles before breakfast every morning.

Lance M. Johnston <>
Jonesville, MI United States of America - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 11:42:46 (EDT) 

Hi all,
Been reading your posts and really like this site. Lots of interesting stuff here but I never thought I would post until read something by Russ about the deficiency of Army
marksmanship training.
I have some buddies who were in the Marines and after listening to how they get to shoot at bullseye targets, use their slings and shoot at 1000 yds, I got real jealous! As we all know, the Army just wants us grunts to know how to operate the weapon and put out rounds. The pop-ups are great but do NOT really train newbees what it's like to REALLY shoot. I wish they would go back to the old way.

By the way, I did a DCM shoot with one of the afore mentioned Marine guys and beat him by a few points!
Roy Thomason <>
Out West, USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 11:45:25 (EDT) 

Russ, you didn’t to mention another point of Chandler's on the M16, one that seems valid and equal to the tri-burst function: The barrel twist. If the function of a soldier is to destroy and defeat his enemy, than why are we equipping him with a barrel designed more for accuracy, and not lethality. I do not always agree with the Chandler's writings, but in this case, I'd have to say they are right on the money. Instead of following do-gooders like Switzerland’s Knoibal and trying to create a less lethal rifle/bullet combination, it would make far more sense to arm our troops with a bullet/barrel combination that totally and instantaneously incapacitated the enemy soldier. The old M16 with the 1:12 or 1:14 twist with 55 grain bullets caused horrific wounds at combat ranges, and in a gun fight, that is exactly what I'd want to do to the guy trying to kill me. While I personally love long range marksmanship and the M16A2, I still believe a regular ground pounder needs a nasty rifle to do the job and survive. A heavy bullet from a tight twist will not do that - it is too stable. The older M16A1 or even the M16 was far better suited to the grungy task of kicking ass at combat range. Leave the AR15A2 and M16A2 with all the specialty twists and bullets to the High Power guys. Give the troops the lethal edge with a less stable bullet. Leave the long range stuff to the guys with bolt guns and let the troops do their jobs.
Scott <xring>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 14:02:30 (EDT) 
Scott: Agree with what you say about M-16 & M-16A1's being a good close combat weapon. The problem was that with the 1/12 twist the barrel was too flimsey, when we used them to open C-rats by twisting the wire with the flash suppressor, (I didn't, some grunts did), the barrels would actually bend! This was not cool! The other problem with the M-16 in any form is that it is basically a CLOSE combat weapon. By all means it should be in our inventory for CLOSE combat, jungle warfare, etc but the good old M-14 should be there for European/desert areas where longer range shots are the norm. The Army marksmanship program SUCKS! It always has and probably always will. You have to try real hard not to hit an area that fails to knock down the targets. The Marines have a lot better program and the Army should adopt it ASAP!

Out here
Gramps <>
Here, there, etc, ???????? USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 16:17:37 (EDT) 


IT WASN'T ME! Look back at the post again! I saw nothing wrong with the Springfield sniper rifle he was using (although I wouldn't necessarily have noticed if there HAD been something wrong), and I made no comment to the effect that there WAS anything wrong with it! I think it was Scott who made that comment...Scott, if it wasn't you, sorry to falsely accuse you!
Matt <>
GA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 18:48:07 (EDT) 

PS--I saw the movie again today...took all 80+ of my Marines out in town and we spent the afternoon watching it, then had a guided discussion about it. I did not watch specifically for it in every scene with the sniper, but at least twice I watched carefully, and he was in fact using his left eye, not his right. He might have switched throughout the movie...but in the final scene (for him) against the's his RIGHT eye that opens WIDE in realization...
Matt <>
GA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 18:52:40 (EDT) 
Does anyone out there know a good supplier for fine weave waxed burlap? Green and brown would be excellent, but Ill dye it if I need to. Thanks.
C. Ray <>
Jackson, Ca USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:07:15 (EDT) 
Scott - Sounds like you got caught by the irksome Max Ord wind that kills shooters. They can't see it and it does real damage due to the "weigthless" state of equal up and down pressure of the trajectory. On the twist of the new 16. It was twisted to be overstabilized at muzzle so it would penetrate the Mach disc without going who knows where. This is the result of the NATO SS round now standardized in the US. At the old twist, the round was so unstable that the Mach disc was sending the bullets into the lost world equiring Air Force radar to track the suckers. Yes, now the bullet is over stabilized at muzzle, causing it to be a gyroscope at range. Hypodermic syringe problem again.

Gramps - I hate to burst your bubble, but the new barrels are thick only past the front sight. The rest of the barrel is just as thin as before. They couldn't mount the 203 on the new thicker versions, so their solution to the problem was to thin down the barrel instead of new mounts.

Have fun guys, I'm going to see SPR and see what's wrong with the 03 in the movie. It was my first sniper rifle!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:23:58 (EDT) 


Oh man, I think you just dated yourself! Ha ha ha ha....
Matt <>
GA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:33:18 (EDT) 

Rick: I am well aware of the thick and thin of the new barrels, (I have built several of the different twists for frieds), but the older barrels in the 1/12 were a lot thinner throughout. I have two of the original AR15s in the 1/12 and they are quite a bit thinner and are subject to bending even when using a sling for support when shooting. The new barrels are a lot thicker, even in the "thin" areas. My bubble was burst quite some time ago!

Gramps <>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:41:37 (EDT) 

Re the '03 problem in SPR- It was Steve from Ohio that mentioned a FUBAR in the '03, not Matt or Scott
Jim Craig <>
Cowboy, WY USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:45:07 (EDT) 
AAAARGH!!!! Matt!.... Well, it looks like I have to stop reading Duty Roster until I see SPR too, otherwise I'll find out everything here first....

Wound Ballistics Review did good tests vs. glass, and for example in .300 Win found the Sierra 200gr Gameking worked much better than the match loadings like the 168gr Sierra. They shot through 737 windshield glass as part of the test, very interesting and confirmed the comments here about the danger of flying glass.

Also I've heard the claim that moly coatings make it harder for the glass to get a "bite" into the bullet's jacket and fragment the bullet, but I've never seen any sort of gard data on the matter.

Rick: I understood that 1 in 9" was about what was wanted for the SS109/M855 style but that the the 1 in 7" for the '16A2 was needed to stabilize the longer tracer bullets. The M193/M855 issue continues to draw some heated debate these days, but what's done is done and the soldier or Marine as always has to make do with what he can.

Russ: I came a way with the impression that Chandler really liked the full auto feature on a '16 as a spotter's weapon, but I don't remember that he thought it was the right answer for all troops... I'll have to scan through DFA V again when I get a chance...

Time to exfil this AO 'til I see SPR...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 19:45:22 (EDT) 

Matt: It must not have been me as I do not have a clue what you are refering to!

On the M16/M16A2. I never understood why they didn't just beef up the barrel and leave the twist rate and bullet alone. I believe NATO is moving toward less leathal projectiles as a result of the urging of various authorities. The guy I mentioned in a previous post (I think his name is Knoible or some thing similiar) was really pushing for an overly stable bullet a few years back. The medical community of course was all behind him. Understandable as they have to fix up the mess we make. Still, if it is my but in the woods, give me something other than Rick's Hypodermic needle!

Bain: I got to fondle your AT1-M24 for a couple of minutes this weekend. I had forgotten just how much I liked that thing. Schweeeet! Also, I will gladly forgive the B&L Tactical scope it's 1/4 minute turrets. Man, that thing is excellent! Only the fact that you area lawyer kept me from obsconding with it!
Scott <xring>
USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 20:30:10 (EDT) 

Matt - I told you guys I was old. That date by the way was only back to 68. We didn't like the M21 (Gramps) and used the 03 until they made us stop. Then we used M70s and M700s.

Gramps - RATS thought I would have some fun with someone older than myself. You're too fast for me old man!

Scott - We'll get Mr. Bain over to the "bolt guns only" in a little while. That's if Gramps doesn't keep incouraging the "old way" of doing things.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 21:51:22 (EDT) 

xring/Bain: Keep talking about that ATI M24, about
80 more days till I get mine in 300 WinMag...

Andrew says mine will have the new/improved adjustable
buttstock, that wont have the gap problem, that fouls up
the rear sight bag...

screw patience, I want it now... :)
Capt Jeff <>
World Center, Microsoft USA - Monday, July 27, 1998 at 22:00:20 (EDT) 

Jeff: You are going to love it. Have you received back your completed and approved Form 6 from ATF? Also, don't necessarily expect to get your new precision instrument and true work of art in 80 days. Andy isn't quick; he's perfect. My congratulations to you on purchasing such an outstanding masterpiece.

Rick: Give up the M21/25? Never! I've always been, and always will be, a gas man. The wife says it's my diet though. . .

"Ole Dutch Oven" Bain

P.S. - "SPR" was outstanding. This film is Hanks' and Spielberg's finest work to date. It was, from my limited knowledge, historically and technically accurate. It was also pro honor and country. I believe the final message was not for just one character in the film, but all of us who live in free countries. Ask yourselves the same questions. What are you answers? Will you change, because of what you answered?

This film should be thought provoking, and it should change the way you approach life for the better. It may be the most significant and relevant film of the decade, if not the century.

Mr. Bain <>
Somewhere, over the rainbow, USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 00:55:48 (EDT) time I take a few days away from this place and I'll be reading about which slingshot is best !!

Will <>
Deep in the South, USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 07:32:15 (EDT) 

Try this again.....I had a post from over a week ago and NO response, one more time !!!! Which is better for bedding and why- Acra glas or Devcon w/steel or Marine-Tex or Devcon w/ titanium (like I can afford it)?????? Would like some input, the rifle in question is a Rem 700V w/ laminate stock.
As to the shotgun question, remarks, I'll take my Benelli M121 over anything else but another NEWER Benelli !!!! Had a 590 amd an 870 and 1100....worked with a few 11-87 and I'll keep mine, thank you !!! Also will keep my M1a shorty as a backup to the bolt gun !!!
One more item....anyone heard or knows why the IRS needs a Million dollar order from Sigarms ??? Also a large order from Remington. 11-87 I have heard .
Will <>
Somewhere in the South, USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 07:43:26 (EDT) 
Reference for your your comments on Saturday about taking your 300 WM. I'm assuming it is a Weatherby Mag or a Winchester Mag, but either way if you are going to create 6.5 x 06, remember that the bolt face size is completely different from a magnum bolt face and a standard bolt face. (Magnum is .532 diameter and standard is .473 diameter.) If you do that, you are opening a whole different bag of worms and this will be expensive. Just go to a local gun show and pick up a used 700 BDL, standard length, standard bolt face size. (30.06, .270. 25.06, etc.) Remember if you find a 700 in the 22/250 or .243 of .308 caliber it will be a short action. And if it is a .223 or .222 it will have a small bolt face size (.378 diameter, and that will get expensive for conversion also.) Keep in contact, don't mind the questions.

Gramps, keep writinig, no matter what anybody says about what an old coot you are. I enjoy your commentary.

Will. I thought we already did have to fill out an AFT # 7 form to buy a slingshot thanks to Billiam and Hilliam Klinton (dorks - of the first caliber).

Al OStapowicz <>
woodchuck Heaven, Ohio USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:03:53 (EDT) 

Saw SPR yesterday.

What a kalidascope of emotions!

I have spent the whole time sence I left the theatre (save when I was asleep) pondering those emotions. I will have to see it again, in the theatre, somthing I never do, usuelly I'll just get the video.

I just found out that a friend's father was on that beach at that time. I'm not sure his health is up to seeing SPR but I am planning to make a special effort to speek with him and, as I do with all veterans, thank him for preserving our way of life.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Sitting here with moist eyes in Respectful, West Virginia USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:12:43 (EDT) 

Al: This old fart will be around for a while yet! Thanks!

Dave: The shots through a 737 probably weren't through the windshield but one of the side windows or cabin windows. The windshields directly in front of the pilots are way too thick for almost any round to penetrate. I do Boeings for a living now so this is first hand knowledge for me.

Rick: Bolt guns are for lazy people!!!! :-) It takes a real man to clean semi's and work hard enough to keep his gunsmith happy! Just ask Bain, sometimes he is fairly smart in spite of himself! :-)

Bain: Airport? E-mail? Pictures????

Gunny Rayfield: What the hell do you mean another $50.00 for those ratty rings Bain recommended? Are you two in cahoots? Are ya both after my money? Grrrrrrrrrrrr.....

Gooch, Torsten, where the hell is my arty???????

Out here
Gramps <>
Over the rainbow, Southern USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:16:38 (EDT) 

Will, The answer why the IRS needs all that fire power is to collect "Their" taxes from you and me. Remember, they could have asked for MP-5's and gotten them. This is the kinder, and gentler, and more concerned IRS. Yuck-yuck-yuck! (That's Depity Dave talk for Ha-ha-ha)

Al Ostapowicz <>
Woodchuck Heaven, Ohio USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:20:25 (EDT) 

Hello, i have been tracking thiss site for some time, and im very interested in sharpshooting, so can any of you answer my questions.

1. I need a scope, im interested in US Optics scopes, has anybody anything to say about them?

2. What is the best bullet for .223 cal in medium to long range.

thankju. Sharpshooting, fellas.
Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <>
IS - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:34:53 (EDT) 

OK OK: I'll see the now pnemoniced SPR again and look closer for which eye was used. Back to scout school for this boy.

Cut out the old stuff or I'll have to go thru midlife crisis again and buy a new gun.... wait a minute keep it up.
tom <>
sooper, dooper USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 08:39:17 (EDT) 

Specifying that I have not as yet seen the film "Saving Private Ryan", I believe that before the folks who are regulars at this site embrace it, they might wish to read Richard Grenier's column in today's "Washington Times" ( "opinion" section. Food for thought.
Fred Fischer <>
People's Republic of MD, USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 09:08:16 (EDT) 
I'am sure Al or one of the other gunsmiths can answer your question with a little more info. but I have used the Acu-Glass gel for most all of my beddig and It's worked great and is very easy to work with. When I went to the synthetic stocks is when I started to use steel bed. I've also tried Devcon Steel two part epoxy on all of my H&S stocks and I find it stronger than the steel bed and a lot cheaper. You can buy it in any hardware store for less than $5.00 a pack. As I remember you said your stock was wood and I guess all I've ever used with wood is the Acu-Glass gel. Hope this helps. I know I'll catch hell for this but I agree with you on the Benelli it's one hell of a fine and fast shotgun!!! In a pump the old model 12 is still the best with the 870 a close second!!! There I said it, sorry Russ!!
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 10:06:10 (EDT) 
Sorry for the missed post on your name. My typing skills are'nt what they should be.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 10:13:32 (EDT) 
I just read
Grenier's review in the Washington Times. I think he's off-base. For a number of reasons. Space does not permit me to go into them now. Grenier was especially wrong about the sniper. Well, it's his opinion.

For those who wonder about the shotgun's use as a sniper weapon, check out Scattergun Technology's offering on the subject.

Mr. Bain <>
Here, There USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 10:27:26 (EDT) 

Ref Greniers review of SPR- I won't go into detail, but lets look at his knowledge of history and the military from the clues in his column. He states "Out of a PLATOON of nine men, five are killed....etc" I admit I did not join the Corps until 1957 but we usually had platoons larger than nine men. I suspect he really meant a Ranger Detachment didn't he? The opinion may only be as good as the facts on which they are based. I suspect Grenier knows little about the military and thus the war.
Jim Craig <>
Cowboy, USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 11:28:47 (EDT) 
My father followed some of the same ground from Normandy to Bastogne. I have a book about his unit somewhere it was Engineer Company. It says of the original 200+ men only 5 survived if I am correct in my memory. I will try to look it up in case some of the V's are reading. Wasn't unusual to loose a lot of men.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 12:14:21 (EDT) 
To add to the above comments on the Normandy invasion: My old Division, the 29th INF Div, was part of that incredible day. Every thinking person in our division still feels pride over the accomplishments of our WWII veterans. A large map hangs in the armory at HHC 1/115 along with the tattered flag that was carried onto the beach that day. The map and flag take a place of honor, in full view of all who enter. There is a large painted Division patch on the center of the armory floor. No matter how busy or muddled things got during drill, no one but NO ONE, would ever step on that patch. To do so brought instant retaliation from the troops! The least of which was immediately dropping and giving 29, no matter what your uniform. Even the little kids , when visiting during a family day, knew not to trod on that spot!

Of the original men in the 29th that hit the beach on June 6, 1944, only four could be found standing at the end of hostilities. All the others had been wounded or killed during their press across Europe. These four were used as Standard bearers during a ceremony honoring the men of the Division. When ever possible today, each unit (115th, 116th, and 175th) invites its veterans to stop by and share a holiday meal. These men were like gold to us. Each year there are less. I have not been able to see SPR yet, but I am so glad that their story has again been brought to the public eye. Their deeds should not be forgotten. Even though I have been out of the unit for seven years, I still feel pride when ever I think of these fine men, and the Division they fought with. I can say with out a doubt, that like some of you, I will unabashedly shed a tear when I finally get to see the film.

29 LET'S GO!
Scott Powers <>
USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 12:50:55 (EDT) 

IRS with guns?- When did they get Peace Officer powers?
I do not believe that any IRS agent, even the criminal investigators have Peace Officer status. They are by law only allowed to be armed in a specific instance and then only on direct written order and permitted by the Sheriff of the County where they will operate. Look at 7608 of the code. They may only seize property if it is at risk of loss in a pending procedure. They can only act as Peace Officers when acting as a special Treasury Agent and then only on an alchohol, or firearms matter, and on ceded federal land. If on state land, they must have State powers and be Certified by the State, which they are not.
Jim Craig <>
Cowboy, USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 13:58:46 (EDT) 
get real, the IRS does as it damned well pleases... :)

Mr Bain: I just found an FFL dealer to handle my Form 6,
so I'm just finishing filling it out as we speak...

Well, he "said" 90 days, and it's been 10 already... :)

Capt Jeff
"Anything worth having, is worth waiting for" :)

PS: nobody hear has seen, or any data on the D2 Stalker Ghillie?
Capt Jeff <>
CenterOfTheWorld, Microsoft USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 14:22:45 (EDT) 

Jon Helgi:
To help with you .223 question about medium and long range bullets, Sierra seems to be the best bet. First, you have to find out what rate of twist you barrel is. The bolt action tactical 223 rifle is have is a 1-9 rate of twist and will stabilize any weight bullets. Its digestive tract seem to be very partial to the Sierra 69 gr HPBT Match bullets, and the NEW 77 grain HPBT long range Match bullets also, by Sierra. Hornady A-max and V-max bullets are alright, but not as nearly as accurate as the two bullets mentioned above. Hopes this helps in you quest. If you rate of twist is 1-14 inches, the heaviest bullets which you might be able to shoot will be a 60 grainer and that still may not stabilize and keyhole.

Gramps, Thanks for the inspirational words of sagely wisdom.

Russ: Got an answer from McMillan. I'll see if I get the stock back in the next couple of days. For those interested, I believe Mr. Mike McMillan and I came to and agreeable understanding.

Now go one out there and shoot the eyes out of them X-RIngs

Al Ostapowicz <>
Fat and Sassy in Bumf**k, Egypt USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 19:35:29 (EDT) 

Re:bullet performance on windshield type glass

I was under the impression that a round nose style bullet tended to perform better in this type of medium than other bullet styles.Having said that, have any of you out there tried the new Lapua FOREX tactical round (I believe it is called this)?The manufacturer claims this bullet works well in situations that glass or other material has to be shot through first before the bullet impacts the target.

Also,I believe it was Mr. Bain that brought up the subject of using shotguns for short range sniping.Without getting all wrapped up in the shotgun discussion again,has anyone also experimented with sabot type munitions against glass
or any other medium ?

Pertaining to sabots,is anyone aware of this type of munitions being developed for centerfire rifle cartridges ?I
seem to recall that some firm may have experimented with this concept during the ACR program several years ago.

Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 20:09:47 (EDT) 

To Al: Hey, that's a good idea, getting a Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 scope in 6-24x power. Hmmm, now the problem is… which one? See, I have three of them. Oh, I forgot, I also have one in 36x too. Yes, they are very nice scopes. Scott Powers had a part in talking me into buying "one." However, I went just a little crazy… and bought more.

To Scott: Yes, I know all about the funky things that happen to bullets after they've impacted something. You'll recall, certainly, that I am NOT a subscriber to the "pristine bullet" theory, in that only ONE bullet did all that damage, yet retained something like 98% of its original weight. I agree, the greater distance behind a pane of glass a target is, the greater the odds of the shot being displaced by a significant amount. However, at what distance does this start to matter? Too many variables come into play… thickness of the glass, how many panes of glass, what angle EACH one is on, and so forth. I am not saying that you can just "let fly" and expect miraculous things, but I am saying that if you've lined up the shot as well as anyone on the face of the Earth ever could, then a "good" bullet should give you much better odds of striking the target. Obviously, you still have to stalk into position and then set up the shot.

To Scott: Um, I'm not sure I was reading you correctly. Give soldiers LESS accurate rifles? Boy, Scott, if you'd have been a superior officer of mine and told me something like that, I think I'd have fragged you some night. Hey, whether I would ever be in a sniper slot or not, and issued a "sniper rifle" or not, I'm stating for the record that I want MY rifle to be every bit as accurate as any "sniper rifle." SETTLE for LESS accuracy, just because I'm a grunt??? Give me a "less stable bullet?!!!" SAY WHAT???!!! Now, given how most of the officers in my unit can't shoot to begin with, it would be a waste of good equipment to give them precision rifles and quality ammo. However, anything issued to me damn well better be able to do what "I" can do (regardless of what the RETS range at Camp Dodge, IA, indicates).

To Matt: Sorry, I thought you were the one talking about the '03. Thanks, Jim (Craig), for the correction. Matt, you're my kind of guy -- taking over 80 Marines in your unit to the movie for a little "exposure" and then holding a structured discussion. You're alright in my book, Matt. I'm probably going to see it again tomorrow night. I'll know to take Kleenexes this time.

To Dave: Moly, defeating jacket distortion? Hmmm, interesting. Boy, now THERE'S an experiment waiting to happen. I think some of us should meet at Rick or Jim's place and try some bullet/glass tests. Maybe we could get Black Hills to contribute the moly and uncoated bullets (in loaded ammunition, that is) and then write it up for a posting here? Rick? James? What say you?

On the lighter bullet versus faster twist examination, and the hypodermic needle comment -- hey, elaborate for me what you want. Am I understanding, you WANT some unstable piece of ca-ca flying "flippity-flop" through the air??? I'm just NOT following you on this one, I guess. Please explain.

To Deputy Dave: I echo Mr. Bain's comment on SPR about it being, perhaps, the movie of the century. I know, full well, what you mean about "pondering the emotions" I felt after seeing this movie. I saw it on Friday, when it was released, and it's still bothering me. Now, I'm no John Wayne tough-guy type, but… I usually don't get this shaken. You'll just have to take my word for it. I also "felt" for the CPT Miller character -- though nothing life-threatening in my military career (thus far), I've sure been given more than my share of f**ked-up missions to carry out. Indeed, most of us have. So, I could feel the angst of Miller's character -- needing to get the job done, but often wondering what in the Hell for?

To Mr. Bain: Yes, I agree, I think, now that you mentioned it, that the last comment by CPT Miller was for all of us. I didn't take it that way at the time but, upon reflection, I think you're right. Oh, and thanks for the "subtle" mention of the Scattergun Technology article. "Ahem." Most kind of you.

To Pat: I was most interested in your comments on the Devcon Steel versus the Acra-Glas Gel (with steel). I've always used the latter (gel/steel combination). Did you do any DIRECT comparison, or is this comment of yours "an impression." I want to know if I should abandon the Brownells product for the Devcon Steel, for my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum.

On the Grenier article: I haven't read it yet, and maybe, now, I won't. Thanks for sharing, Jim. I have enough aggravation going on in my life, I don't need to add to it.

To Scott (again): Haven't seen the movie yet? Good. There's still time to get a little "pocket packet" of Kleenex tissues before you go. If Rene' goes with you, take an extra packet, because you won't have enough to share with her.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 20:26:09 (EDT) 

Russ - NO I do not subscribe to a flying piece of ca-ca. The problem is I want a stablized bullet, NOT an over-stablized bullet. That is the problem right now. The normal round out of the military weapon system is an over-stablized piece if metal that flys straight through someone with little inparted energy. That is why I cringed at the thought of three "darts" in the test weapon of the "improved infranty rifle". Again, FAST + no weight = no imparted energy. Nice neat wound though! Makes the doctors life easier. Of course the guy just killed you and all of your friends before he was ordered back to the aid station for treatment. He'll probably get some medal for staying while seriously woundedand killing everybody. But what the hey that's technology! And before anyone screams about the beehive round, there is a difference from being hit by one to three darts and being hit by several hundred darts at hypervelocity.

Now Russ, don't get me wrong, I want and expect every soldier to carry the most accurate rifle available for combat purposes. Anything less is criminal. The tumbling of the M16 round did not occur while in flight. This is a very persistent myth. The tumbling occured once it hit anything. This is good and bad. If the body was first strike, good. Trauma on a scale worthy of a weapon designed to close and destroy the enemy. If first strike was a branch, twig, leaf, etc. bad. Accuracy went to hell, as evidenced in SEA when aimed shots through the brush seemed to miraculasly miss the target. Many thought this meant that the round was doing damage after impact. No, it meant the round wasn't impacting on the target due to deflection.

Oh well, guess I've thrown in my two cents worth.

PS Gramps - Just had to let you know that I went to the range and shot my assigned M21 for the first time since 88. It was real fun to fire that old sucker, cleaning it was a pain in the butt, and I still wouldn't take it on a stalk!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, July 28, 1998 at 21:17:32 (EDT) 

To Rick: Okay, I feel better now. I thought people around here were going nuts. And I, for one, never thought the bullet went unstable during flight, only on impact. Good Lord, any bullet that goes unstable in flight has a HECK of a pathetic flight -- and I don't want it!!!

Okay, I'm with you (i.e., "on the same sheet of music") as to the stability problem. If I understand you correctly, you're saying the heavier bullet in the A2's ammunition is SO stable that it doesn't do erratic things in the body once impact is made... and you're saying the lighter bullets, while capable of accuracy, would do nasty things upon impact. Do I have this right? Maybe I'm so used to non-shooting, low-bidding people influencing my military weaponry that I've become too sensitive to words like "inaccuracy" -- but I was starting to think that people on this website had gone daffy on me! Then, to humor this line of discussion, what would you say is a "fair" distance for the slower-twist, lighter-weight M16A1s to engage their targets? I already know what a 69-grainer can do out of a 1:9, and the 80-grainers can sure reach out there if the RPMs are sufficient.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 02:41:15 (EDT) 

Rick: LOVE YA MAN, MEAN IT!!!!!!! You have an ISSUE M-21??
I thought they were all gone and the M-25s took their place!
I just knew you were the kind of guy that would make an old guy proud! Stick with the M-21 son, it won't let you down if you take care of it.......

Russ: Ya mean to tell me that my 55 grain bullets didn't tumble all over the place when I went rock and roll? Damn, that must mean I missed on my own!!!!! :-)
ps, SHOTGUN!!!!!!

SPR is the BEST war movie I have EVER seen! Damn, that means Bain was right again, I HATE it when that happens!

Would someone answer that guy about the D2 stalker outfit? I'm curious too!!!!!

Out here

Gramps <>
Yonder, No! USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 08:29:02 (EDT) 

Hey! I have a stainless Whammo Wrist Rocket with moly coated wrist guard and 7mm x 200mm surgical rubber band. It has been glass bedded and fitted with a 6x24x54 Leupold. Shoots 3/8" with 152 grain .250 swaged fmj ball ammo!!!!
Joey Bagodonuts
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 09:20:33 (EDT) 
I have'nt done any type of real nuts and bolts comparison between the Steel Bed and the Devcon except that I've had to grind both out of stocks for rebedding and the steel bed was a lot easier to remove. They claim you can even drill and tap Devcon. I've used it for a lot of other things and it has allways worked great. I was out of Steel Bed one day and was desperate to get to the range with a new rifle when the idea hit me to try it and I've used it ever since. My 308 was the first rifle I bedded with it and its been in and out of the stock many, many times and is on its second barrel with the original bedding. Sorry I cant give you anymore concrete info.

Where you been buddy?? I would like to know if you have shot any of the 140gr. Sierra match bullets in the 6.5 and if you have how did they shoot and fly in comparison to the VLDs? Also would this bullet combo in a 260 Rem. be fast enough to duplicate the 300 Win Mag. for trajectory and wind drift. I'am really intrigued with your 6.5 for long range shooting. I was shooting with a buddy of mine who has a 7mm-08IMP and at 600 yards he uses 5min. of angle less elevation than I do with my 308. I have a new Leupold Long Range with the BC so I would like to stay with a round that would work with the cam.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 09:40:00 (EDT) 

thanks to the "stabilization" discussion I now have the proof I need to declare every one on this site Certifiable!
What the .223 needs is a 375 caliber bullet of about 300 grains. we could neck up the cartridge case. Then strange things would surely happen. I think it would tumble in the barrel. This pipsqueak will never be a combat round until they start using something besides fmj. Put some 55 gr. Hornady SX's in there and you'll be able to kill something.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 10:57:28 (EDT) 

On the D2 stalker:
there is a page with pictures I ran across in the SC links just can't remember where exactly.
another place:

harry <>
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 11:42:16 (EDT) 

Al: Thanks for the advise.

Now has anybody anything to say about US Optics scopes?

sharpshooting fellas.

Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <>
IS - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 14:42:17 (EDT) 

US OPTICS: Everything I have heard and seen says their optics are the best. But in regard to accuracy, repeatability, and quality. I have no idea. They primarily deal in special applications and large objectives. The prices are pretty special too.

I have a great distaste for non quantifiable (read; opinions) evidence. But my first look at them said yeah great but the expense wasn't justified for my application.

tom <>
back, in the USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 15:13:28 (EDT) 

To Mr. Russell E. Taylor:
About the FUBAR on the 03 Springfield, If you really want to know what is wrong with that rifle you can email me
and I will give you the answer privately. I wanted to wait for the rest of the regualrs to offer their opinions to see if they caught the same thing that I did. (Especially Rick since he said it was his first sniper rifle). I will be more that happy to tell everyone what is wrong with the rifle here in this forum , I just wanted to wait a few days to give the rest of the guys a chance to see the movie first.
To the rest of you guys that havent seen SPR. :
Do me a big favor and watch the final battle scene where the translator corporal (coward) is walking around with the belted machine gun ammo. I may have misread his character altogether. I first thought he was just a crybaby but the reason he may be crying is that there are no primers in the cartridges. Someone please confirm this for me. Thanks
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 19:14:23 (EDT) 
Unless my memory serves me wrongly there was a discussion about U.S. optics back in first part of 96 (archives) where a fella named John R. Furgeson was expounding on the virtues of that system and the exchange was very informative. It might be worth looking back.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 19:44:00 (EDT) 
Thankes guys, what optics would you recomend to me, not too expensiv but reasonable quality, in the 10x40 range.


Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <>
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 20:12:31 (EDT) 

U.S. Optics: I remember Ferguson's posts, along with Dick Culver's thrashing of them. Ferguson runs the "Sniper Store." He won't link to us, I suspect, because of the abuse he got from some of the Roster Regulars. (We do link to him and every other sniper site of which we know, whether they reciprocate or not. When you're the best, you don't have to cop an attitude about who's "good enough" for your links page and who's not.)

I have purchased one or two things from the Sniper Store. (I won't mention what; we don't always identify ourselves as being from this page so that we can evaluate the people from one can purchase gear and I don't want John to figure out who I am.) Watch closely the amount charged as a "service fee" on your credit card. Be careful also on "shipping and handling."

We (actually, Scott) haven't reviewed their scopes yet, but we probably will soon. (So much gear, so little time to evaluate and write.) Stay tuned on this one.

Jon: As for a good 10 x 40 scope, I'd say B&L Tactical or Mk. IV M3. If these are too expensive, then I'd say Tasco Tactical. Can't say anything about Swaroski or Schmidt & Bender, don't know. Have you thought about the variable power scopes? Do you want mil-dot or duplex? Bullet drop compensator?

Steve: Yes, I noticed the lack of primers in the cartridges too. On another note, the dialog from the Germans during that part of the movie is very interesting. That is, when you can make it out.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 21:13:49 (EDT) 

To all:

I also went to see SPR yesterday. I second the "WOW".... I agree with those of you who stated that this is the best modern war movie ever made. Personally, I found it to be very humbling and eventhough I have always been grateful to all veterans for preserving my freedoms and liberties this movie has deepened that gratitude beyond my ability to articulate it. I plan to take James (Jarrett) possibly next week if/when he comes back to town. I will also remember to take along my tie downs to keep him in his chair. He tends to get a little excited with movies like this.

FYI-I have heard grumblings that because the opening scenes are so realistic, it has been causing some vets to (re)seek counceling and "they" (not sure whom that is exactly) is trying to get the movie pulled from the theaters (at least in Az). It's to good for public viewing... So, for those who have been waiting for the crowds to diminish, don't wait.

My thanks and gratitude to all the veterans...

B Davis
Phoenix, Az USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 22:35:05 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain:

If you and your observer still plan on going to the class this weekend...enjoy and have fun. Do an "X" for me.
B Davis
USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 22:44:11 (EDT) 

Jon - I bought a Tasco SS10x42 scope two weeks ago. I have mounted it and shot 200 rounds with it now. I really like this scope. I couldn't afford a Leupold or the B&L Tactical. I read the review on this page on the scope and was impressed.

Russ, Rick, etc.- I would still like some opinions on scope bases and rings for a 30mm scope. I have the turn-in type on a two piece base. I also have the high rings; these seem two high and I have had to change my cheek weld to use them.

Also on an SPR note - I have never been to a movie until now that there is total silence from the audience at the end of the movie until everyone has left the theater( with the exception of many sobs and sniffles).

Keep sending them downrange
Brent <>
Shreveport, La USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 23:26:29 (EDT) 

Bonnie: We're heading down there tomorrow. This one's a go. I'm just squaring away the gear tonight and did some dry fires with the M21/25 (swapped out the A.R.M.S. #18 mount for the Brookfield Precision Tool mount.) One major problem: I can't find the directions. Please drop me a line (or call) at my e-mail address below.

Jim Craig: En la manana temprano, amigo. Or should I say, "Bis Morgen frueh. Fahren wir nach Neu Mexico."



Mr. Bain <>
Heading out, to the land of enchantment, USA - Wednesday, July 29, 1998 at 23:43:40 (EDT) 

Hello there all. I am shooting a Savage 110FP. I am starting to get in to some long range varmit hunting. The only problem that i have with the savage is the trigger. Does anyone know of a company that deals with Savages. I am also thinking of adding a new stock in order to fit me better. If anyone has any ideas please let me know.
Jeremy Lines <>
springfield, Missouri USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 00:23:54 (EDT) 
I'm looking for a dealer source for a Tasco SS10x42M. Any suggestions?

Steve- You're killing me, man!!!! What's this FUBAR with the 1903-A4?

Has anyone experienced shipping problems with Armalite? I ordered some parts in early April of this year, and was told there was a 6 week backorder. As of today, parts aren't here and a phone call to Armalite informed me of a shipping date in September! Geez, you'd think I was ordering a McMillan stock or something....
Manhatan, KS USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 01:14:25 (EDT) 

To Pat: That's good enough for me. I'll go with the Devcon Steel. Who has it??? Hardware shops? I smoked the receiver of my .338/378 with a candle tonight and finished relieving the stock. It should be ready for bedding soon, after just a little more work.

To Steve: There are no primers in the cases. I saw that when they "loaded him down."

Drop me a line with the answer on the '03A4. Thanks.

To Bonnie: Locally, we've had a few reports of WW II veterans getting up and leaving the theater during the first half-hour. Not because the movie is bad, but because it's so real. Understandable. If I'd have lived through June 6th, 1944, during the beach assault of the Normandy invasion -- I seriously doubt that I'd want to relive it by seeing it on the silver screen.

To Brent: I don't think I have enough information to help you properly, but let me give you some general guidelines from "my" perspective alone. I don't like one-piece bases unless we're talking "serious" magnums. Even then, it's questionable whether I'll choose to use one. I like the easier access to the loading port of the receiver that two-piece bases afford me. (I'm tall and have big hands with long fingers -- one-piece bases are usually a hassle for me.) I like Burris Signature rings (with appropriate inserts depending on the range I'd be shooting WITH the scope I'd be using). I also like Millett rings. Now, if you've got "big" money (I don't), I'm sure Mr. Bain and others can give you some different choices for mounting systems. On scope height: you may end up having to add an adjustable cheekpiece... but if aesthetics aren't terribly important to you, consider using some foam padding and duct tape to get the right cheek weld that helps you align your shooting eye with the center axis of the scope. If you feel the need to be more specific, you can give me a call.

To Jeremy Lines: Concerning your question on Savage triggers, I can only surmise that "you must be new in these here parts." (Perhaps others will enlighten you why I say that.) Refer to the article on tuning Savage triggers on our Articles and Commentary page. Timney will eventually come out with their Savage trigger. Another company has just recently come out with one (a little pricey at around $90 or so, and they "recommend" that you let them install it) and, of course, M H. Canjar, in Denver, Colorado, has replacement Savage triggers for sale. I can't remember the name of the "new" company that's making Savage triggers, but there's an article on it in Precision Shooting (an issue or two ago). Oh, and I suppose I should tell you -- I have five Savages. I have a Savage Striker in .308 Winchester with the AMB; a 112FV in .223 Remington; a 112BVSS in .22-250 Ackley Improved; a 110FP Tactical in .308 Winchester; and a 112BVSS-S in .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. (Note: The Ackley and Weatherby versions are conversions, not production jobs... but they're still Savages.)
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 01:55:39 (EDT) 

To Matt (in Kansas): I am the webmaster for ArmaLite and, in a different pay status, I'm also a part-time ArmaLite employee (working intermittently either on the line or in the office).  So, I can tell you that Mark Westrom is doing everything possible to get "product" to his customers.  (I was out there Tuesday night and spent a few hours with Mark, talking about backlogs among other things.)  I just posted a notice from him on the current backlog status (check the website).  Mark is revamping the way ArmaLite operates.  He's taken some radical steps to turn things around, and I can tell you these are all "positive" things.  His company makes a good product at a good price -- however, his business has grown FAR faster than anyone ever could have predicted.  He has brought in new machinery and hired extra personnel, and extended production hours.  He really is taking this delivery problem seriously.  Realize, however, he is subject (read, "slave") to his supplying vendors.  He just showed me the way they've reorganized the warehouse and how the new computer system will expedite "picking" to fill orders.  A lot of good things are going on out there.  They just got the .243 Winchester barrels in, and... well, I can't tell you, "yet," but... they are VERY close to bringing out something... "special."  You'll hear about it at the SHOT Show next January.  Just remember, when you read about it, that you "sort of" heard about it here, first.  (Call it a Sniper Country exclusive, I guess.)  Anyway, if I was you guys, I'd start saving up my money.

Bottomline, Matt, ArmaLite is playing "catch up" because their stuff is in demand. Be patient. Not much of an answer, but it's the best (and most honest) you'll get.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 02:17:12 (EDT) 

Graduate of US Army Sniper School: Class 8-90.
Graduate of Special Tactical Problems Course
Military units: 3/75 Ranger Bn. / 4th Rgr Tng Bn. / 6th Rgr Tng Bn.
Current Occupation: Primary Sniper on OKACI Corrections Emergency Response Team.

Mark P. Rudolph
Florida USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 03:06:35 (EDT) 

Russell: You are a MEAN man, MEAN man, to keep an old person like me waiting for an answer. Keep this up and Michele will be sent to talk to you!!!!!! (She gets around VERY fast in her walker)! It's a lot lighter without the Gillie trappings on it.

Bain: Damnit man, which mount is the best for the M21/25 SWS???? I'm confused enough with this bolt thingy and the German bipod or what ever it is they use, (Hi Torsten) :-),
I don't need more confusion from you about mounts!!!!!

Gooch: Did ya leave the planet man?

Gunny Rayfield: No, not $50.00 more on the rings until Bain answers!

Out Here
Gramps <>
Over yonder, USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 08:07:17 (EDT) 

Thankes guys, for the advise.

Bain: i would prefer mil-dots on my scope, i dont know how to use them, but everything i have heard about them says thei are wery good. I own a Tasko 6x40 on my .22LR and i like the scope, does the Tasco Tactical have mil-dots?

sharpshooting fellas

Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <>
IS - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 08:47:45 (EDT) 

I just went from a 1" Leupold to a new 30mm Long Range Tactical. I had the same problem, the mounts were to high for the scope, not for my eye but for adjustment. I went to as low of a mount as I could get and that took care of my problem. I shoot a lot of long range Prairie Dogs and I used to have a problem with the 1" scopes running out of elevation so I was forced to shim the rear of the mount and if you have to do this you will need to go to a one piece base or you can damage your scope. I've never had problems with loading of my rounds but Russ brings up and interesting point. I'am not that familiar with the Savage 110s or there mounts so you may want to consider what he had to say.
On my Rem.700 I used the Leuopld low rings on a one piece base and then shimmed the rear of the base. I now have no trouble dialing further than I can shoot.

The Devcon two part epoxy should be easy to find in any Hardware store. I've even found it in K-Mart or Wal-Mart stores. You should try mixing up some Steel Bed and then some Devcon and let them both cure out and do some tests of your own before you bed the "378". Let me know what you think. How do you like your 22-250 IMP. I loved mine but shot the barrel out of it. I then went to a 243IMP. and I think thats even better yet.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 09:51:37 (EDT) 

Jeremy: Call Bob Greenleaf. He designed the action and the new trigger work he did on my 12FVSS works like a champ. He offered publicly in Precision shooting to perform the installation of new triggers. You may use my name if you like as reference. But remember don't mention Sniper or tactical usage. He is very concerned that people shouldn't use guns on people, especially his. He also published his # and said I could give it out as well: 413-568-0787. He is a great guy and a real craftsman. Also he is a member of the AFTE, which makes him more than qualified to do precision work.
tom <>
Pleased to be, in the USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 10:58:18 (EDT) 
Russ: On acceptable accuracy for the regular grunt. My point was that the high power crowd has had a little too much influence on rifle development for the average grunt. We're NOT talking Sniping here! The regular grunt generally sees targets from zero to 400 yards, and generally a lot less, like in their face. In view of this, why on earth would we give him a bullet that is overly stable, punches neat little holes, and is very very accurate as a result? How much accuray does he need? 1" @ 100 meters? 1.5" @ 100 meters? Jeeze, a guy is 20" wide! See here is the thing...My first M16 shot about 1.6 inches at 100. For an infantry rifle, that was plenty good enough, and I probably could not hold it to that level anyway in a fur ball. But the up side was when it hit a man, that 55 grain projectile was just at the edge of stability due to the slow barrel twist. On impact, really nasty things could happened to bad guy. Things that made him want to lay down and die fast. Things like a blown out lung. With the new 1:7 twist and M855 bullet, you get much better accuracy, but you lost that terminal effect. I was not saying give our troops a blunder bus scatter gun, but give them something that is sufficiently accurate to get the job done AND pound the snot out of the poor sap who is taking the rounds. Arming each man with a super accurate rifle makes little sense if upon impact the bullet is not doing ugly things beyond a simple punch through. Just call me a humanitarian! Recall the book "On Killing?" How many guys will actually utilize a sub moa infantry weapon? Give them something that will hit what they aim at, say some thing with a 1:12 or 1:14 twist and a 55 grain projectile, and at least when they connect bad guy will take serious notice as his intestines drool out his back.

Sorry for the graphics folks, but war is ugly and it ain't a friggin known distance bullseye contest. Competition is competition, war is war. They are not remotely alike. We let the pencil necks mix the two up far too often were equipment decisions are conserned. Like I said, I LOVE the AR15A2 and its 1:7, or 1:7/8 or 1:9 twist. But not for combat! On the other hand, I would not use ANYTHING else for High Power! (that was for you old M14 guys, hee hee).

Let's put paid the the stable/unstable misunderstanding right now. The bullets fired form the early M16 were STABLE in the air and flew true. THEY DID NOT TUMBLE, as so many grade school kids liked to say when I was a young'un. The bullet only destablilized once it entered the human body. The intent was to have a bullet that could shoot more accuratly than the M14, with less recoil, but was just stable enough that when it hit, it went haywire. This is why so light a bullet was accepted. It did horrendious damage for so little a projectile. It was not inaccurate at all and it allowed the troops to carry a huge load of ammo. When we went to the 1:7 twist, we took part of the advantage of the M16 away.

At 40 feet would you rather hit a guy with a 55 grain bullet from a 1:14 twist? Or from a 62 grain round from a 1:7 twist. Which is going to make a real bloody mess? Given my druthers, I'll take the nasty terminal balistics over the kinder gentler ones anytime. That Swiss Bone head and his politically correct, humane bullet theories be damned! It wasn't his ass on the line when he started this whole push with NATO.

Does this make sense now Russ?

Preaching mode off. Soap box put away...

Bill: Yueah, the .338 idea is nice, but there ain't a troop around who could shoot it accurately. That pip squeek .223 does a damn fine job for so little a thing, when fired from its intended barrel. By the way, ALL bullets will tunble when they hit a twig. Contrary to popular opinion, heavy "brush Busting" round nose bullets have been proven to be no better at this than thier lighter, pointed bretheran! Sigh...
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:16:42 (EDT) 

Problems with the Vari-X III, Long Range M3: I just discovered the one big down side of the one minute adjustable scope. Being a big fan of the 1/4 minute scope for civilians, even those who shoot tactical games, I feel the need to point this out. My M3 can only go to 44 moa when zero'd for my current accuracy load, which leaves the muzzle at 2540. This is really pissing me off. It means I am going to have to shim the mount. And as I just ordered a Mk4 two piece base, it gets more complicated! I avoid one piece bases as they can impart stress on an action, if said action is not perfect, or if the base is not true. SO now what am I to due? Can a two piece be effective shimmed with out undo stress to the scope?

Or do I just bite the bullet and stop molying and get up to 2650 to 2700 fps again? Precision Descisions....
Scott Powers <>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:23:07 (EDT) 

Scope Mounts: I have heard that this shimming the scope mount can makeup for the lack of adjustment. Is this a good fix, cause if so I'll buy the Burris Mil Dot 6-24X? It just doesn't have enough adjustment for my puny 308. From what I gathered some of Russell's guns don't need elevation adjustment out to 1000yds, he just sites it at the same distance low as the scope center is from the bore and it remains the same at all distances(read: flat shutin). Well ok that is until the curvature of the earth becomes a problem.

2nd: I wonder if anyone else has qualms about the feel of the plasticy stocks vs. the warmth of wood? I ain't getting mushy here, I'm just wondering if the McMillan stocks have the same cold plastic feel as the Choate stock. I can get a custom laminate for cheaper than a composite with more bells and whistles(including the bedding.) Haven't heard a technical reason not to so I thught I would try the touchy feely question.
tom <>
Pleased to be, in the USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:30:31 (EDT) 

For those interested. I just started testing the TALON White Feather ammo yesterday. The first group measured .301 in diameter! Now here it gets ugly. As I was running out of day light, a fired the next two groups in a rather speedy fashion. I shot one round every 60 seconds. Group two, with a hot barrel, spread right up to .935" and group three, with a really hot barrel, went into 1.2" with much vertical stringing.

I can not entirely blame the ammo as I was the one pushing the envelope. I am so used to how cool the barrel is when shooting moly loads that I forgot about this.

I promise to get you all a good review later this month. I will slow it down and see what these rounds can really do. That .301" group was quite exciting and the potential, given zero user error, could be exceptional.

Also, I just ordered a case of Fed GM2 and will have a good report on that in September. Now if you could only talk Russ into PAYING ME for doing all these reviews for SC, I'd be so happy...

By the way, if you want Fed GM2, Hoplite has the rock bottom BEST price available. $309.oo per 500. But please, do not order it till I have MINE! Hahaha.
Scott Powers <>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:31:37 (EDT) 

Another Wannabe ?: I know this is an old issue but let me see if I can paraphrase what I heard earlier on this site. There is no such thing as Knock Down Power. Meaning that the person who shoots the gun is kicked as hard as the person stopping the bullet!? And the movie scenario of people and animals (including Godzilla et al) don't really fly backwards when absorbing the bullets impact. Some proof was offered by a guy being shot (while expecting it) and standing on one foot. He was not knocked back so the proof is irrefutable!?

Have I summarized correctly?
tom <>
Pleased to be, in the USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 11:37:39 (EDT) 

Scott:all kidding aside the .223 once had a .30 caliber bullet in the form of the m1 carbine. It was not an effective man killer or so some have judged. The thought to change driven by recoil reduction,weight & material savings and hopefully increasing kill power with speed. With the proper bullet the .223 is a very effective killer of man and beast. Of course the Military applications put the wrong bullet in it. And the same could be said of the .308 I suppose. I personally think the main reason for the stabilty that seems to be the object of the discussion is the extra weight of the heavier bullets as opposed to the spin velocity and so called over stability. I would like to see someone try some kind of experiment involving same rounds different spin to either prove or disprove it! I have my doubts that it is the predominant factor. Inertia is a very prominent reason that .22LR bullets move around a body more than .458s do. Your observation that big bullets are deflected from their intended path in brush as you stated is in agreement with my observations as far as hitting the intended target. What happens in a medium such as flesh should follow that but it seems to be different somehow.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 12:30:43 (EDT) 
You ran into the same problem that I had with my Long Range. I went to the new Lepuold "low" 30mm rings they just came out with them this year. I would give you the number but I dont have it handy right now but if your interested E-Mail me and I'll get it for you.
On one piece bases putting strain on the action I've never heard of that in fact I've allways heard the opposite that they add strength to the action but maby AL or one of the gunsmiths can add more to this.
The way I shim mine is with Acu-Glass. I rough up the bottom of the mount and then use a small O-Ring under the back screw, then put the release agent on the action and the glass on the mount and snug it down until it sets up.The nice thing about doing it this way is there is no bind its matched to the action, any good gunsmith could do it for you. The other thing is to buy the tapered bases that are now on the market but they are "spendy."

Pat <>
Pierre , SD USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 12:41:18 (EDT) 


I have seen a couple of posts looking for burlap.

Gun Parts Corp., of West Hurley, NY 12491, tel. 914-679-2417

They sell sets of 2" x 300', brown and OD rolls for 9.95 pr. That's 600' of burlap for ten bucks! I just made a suit with only two rolls, and I have some left over. I bought 10 sets of the stuff. (70lbs shipped!)

Item # SRE-7G Cama Rolls
Lance M. Johnston <>
Jonesville, MI USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 16:17:59 (EDT) 

To all:

I vas just on the phone talking with all the gun stores that i could find in the phonebook,,, and nobody had ever heard of mil-dots!!!
I will have to buy my scope from a catalouge or any other source that would send scopes by mail, i need a Tasco Tactical 10x42 with mil-dots, does any body have an address, E-mail or web site that i can look into?
I also need to know how much the scope would cost me, the taxes here in Iceland are realy ugly.


sharpshooting fellas

Jon Helgi Torsteinsson <>
Iceland - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 16:39:23 (EDT) 

I love a challenge so here it goes,i have only seen SPR once and was not prewarned to look for this FUBAR but I did see something that felt wrong.As you first see the sniper doing his business he is using what looks to be a M-84 ( M1D) scope on his 1903A4 which he then removes and hands to his buddy so that he can watch FORREST RUN up the hill to the machine gun nest.Now we see him attaching a blued? Untrel,Redfield scope but you don't see any bases for the first scope.My good friend Fred (Marine Corps Sniper VN) thinks that the first sceen showing this rifle may have been a 1917 Enfield.That's about the best I can do on the first try
Agine some one is looking for a good set of rings and bases and all that is said is Millett ! a chain is only as strong as it's weekist link and millett is about as week as you can get and still say that you are using steel (pot metal).Leupold makes a great all STEEL base and ring system for almost any rifle QRW rings are made for inch and 30mm scopes and they are as strong as anything that I have used less it be MK4. and a set will cost you less than $100
Ft.Home, Ga. USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 17:05:12 (EDT) 
If you are looking for a good low price on any Leopold scopes or accessories, Sakos and other goodies, call ACCUFLITE in Pennsyltucky. Talk to Jim Bartol, cuz he is the president. Their phone number is 1-800-666-SAKO for orders and 724-733-3666 if you just want to B.S. I just picked up a 3.5x10 M3 LR Tactical with the side focus. What a Scope. Its Great! And at a very good price.

Goin' Shootin'g this weekend if my lovely bride lets me go!

Al Ostapowicz <>
Here, There and Everywhere, Ohio USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 18:09:59 (EDT) 

Hey guys:
It was I who posted that I saw a videotape, "Deadly Effects" or "Weapons" or something like that when it showed a point blank .308 shot to the chest on a man standing on one leg. He said it hardly felt worse than a punch. Same tape: Richard Davis of Second Chance Body Armor shooting himself with a .44 Magnum at muzzle contact range. The point was to show the effectiveness of his vests but also showed that there really is no "knockdown power". Same tape: light brush causes a .50 BMG round to keyhole at fairly close range.-----So, my observation is that bullets do get deflected, no matter what, and "knockdown power" is a myth. Perhaps "killing power" or "Incapacitation potential" is a better term.
What is the FUBAR in Saving Private Ryan? I guess I missed it. I liked the motorcycle with the treads. Haven't seen one of those for a while. The line was very long to get into that movie. Local vets have said in the paper that it is the most realistic war movie that they have seen. I met a Vietnam-era Marine sniper, and talked to him over the phone about the movie. He concurred that the movie will really shake you up and that it is the best war movie he has ever seen.
My grandfather went in with the 1st wave at Omaha Beach, June 6th, 1944. He NEVER talked about the nastier stuff except once to my father, and I happened to overhear it. My parents and grandmother told me the rest. He said that just before they hit the beach, the shelling was so thick that the driver got scared and let the men off in 10 foot of water. He said that the gear was real heavy and most of the men from the boat didn't make it. He had an M-1 carbine. I heard him say on his death bed that the M-1 carbine was "...the most worthless piece of shi# that the Army ever produced." Why? When he hit the beach the salt water evidently affected his carbine. He said he fired 2 shots and then it jammed. Some kid right in front of him got killed and the kid had a German Luger. He took his Luger until he got further up the beach. He then saw a German soldier with a .45 Thompson. My grandfather said that he "liberated" it from him and that is what he carried for the rest of the war. He absolutely loved it. He claimed he won a bet with a LT. that he could carve his initials at 40 yards with it. He said the secret to firing the Thompson accurately on full auto was to "blip" the trigger. He explained that you would take the very tip of your finger right by the nail and give the trigger a flick or a "blip".
Grandfather was a Catholic, and as I said went in with the 1st wave. In SPR there are scenes of a soldier kissing a crucifix and people praying the rosary. I thought that that person could be my grandfather and it made me upset. He carried the mental and physical scars of the war with him until the day he died. For all those who haven't seen the movie you must go watch it.
I report with the local PD tomorrow morning at 0800. Wish me luck! I'm scared to death. I'll let everyone know how it goes.----------Remember the words of the greatest General who ever lived, George S. Patton Jr.........."The M-1 Garand is the finest battle emplement ever devised."
10-7 and good shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 18:12:51 (EDT) 
Scott: You comments about the one piece base are entirely correct. If it is not true dead nuts on, you will put strain on the receiver and could have and adverse affect on accuracy. That is why I try and sell people on Sako actions. Sako has a terrific and very strong dovetail system for tactical appications and they are two piece mounts. At $120 a crack thats not to shabby, along with the action being as smooth as a baby's behind.

Tom Scott (Too many Scotts here) About your Wannabe statement. I just want to meet this flaming hairballed idiot who knew and was going to get shot and decides to stand on one leg. You can really let your imagination run wild with this. Think about it!

Well my Sweetie just got home. Time for dinner and other things. Imagine fellas!

Al Ostapowicz <>
Still Here Suckin'Wind in, Ohio USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 18:26:32 (EDT) 

Glock mods you might consider...if you shoot your Glock a lot and are really competent with it, you might consider the plastic gizmo trigger return with the "NY trigger" not to increase the trigger pull, but to reset the trigger quicker.. secondly if you shoot a lot of competition with another pistol (yea I know this is not the smartest thing to do, but I've been a competitive 1911 shooter longer than a CCW holder) and shoot with a high grip on a 1911, if you shoot a full size or intermediate (both my 17 &21 as well as my 19 did) you might find that your off thumb bumps the slide stop up. If you cut it off inside, and leave the spring and short section to lock the cross pin you will not have a problem. If you shoot the gun dry, the loud click will add a litte adrenalin to help you reload faster Has not been a problem with my current 27. Put a little slick-em on the connector, and the rails.. I mix one part NeverSieze with 5 parts moly wheel bearing lube.. works on the AR15 also. It will migrate all over the place if you happen to get it on your hands. Speaking of lubricants, try Mercury Quicksilver 2 cycle racing lube to lube the bolt and carrier of your M16/AR15 it dissipates carbon and doesnt build up on the gas plug. It will eat Locktite. Les/Fla
Les Snyder <>
New Port Richey, Fla USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 20:58:21 (EDT) 
I am having a new stainless Shilen barrel put on my Win M70 300 WinMag. I instructed the gunsmith to put as short a throat as possible in it so that the bullets were just barely off the lands when seated at the depth required to fit in the magazine. I got a call from him saying that he couldn't throat it the way I wanted because he couldn't get the right reamer. He said he was able to borrow a reamer with an "Obermeyer" throat, which he explained was better than the factory, but not quite what I wanted. Since I need the rifle for an October Wyoming hunt, I told him to go ahead with it.

Two questions: What's up with this "Obermeyer" reamer? Are the manufacturers of reamers subject to same legal bullshit that forced rifle makers to put excessive freebore in their barrels?
Greg in PA <>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 21:02:29 (EDT) 

Hey quick question? I'm looking for a preset torque wrench, that i can use on my MarkIV rings and also to torque my rifle in and out of the stock. Anyone have any idea's. Besides the one i seen in Brownell's. I seen a add in a gun rag a few months back there was one out there for around $50. Anyone!!!

thanx Sgt. G.

Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 21:16:27 (EDT) 

Scott: I have Mk4 rings on a a 2 piece base on my rifle. And I had a little bit of a problem with the elevation too so I talked to Premier Reticles about it. I think you can shim the rear base up to 25 thousands before doing the damage to the scope. Maybe you should call them up just in case but I'm pretty sure this is about right.
harry <>
USA - Thursday, July 30, 1998 at 21:18:46 (EDT) 
does anyone have any recomendations on where to find info on 03' and M1C/D sniper rifles? I would like to put one of each together from some basket cases I have laying around just for kicks.

Sgt. Gimmellie, find one of those big Snap-on tool trucks, they have preset and adjustable torque drivers that are as close as you are going to get to passing the three ball bearing test. My 3/8" drive torque ratchet was about $200 so the fixed driver should be under $100. in a world of shit and good shit, snap-on is good shit.

Al, I just got back from vacation and found your program in the mail, thanks and I will get that letter back to you asap.
Rich <>
WA USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 02:17:51 (EDT) 

Sgt. Gimmellie, AWC has a MIL-SPEC action & scope mount torque wrench,"T" handle version preset at 65 in/lb. The price is $70. You can reach them at or their phone no. is (602)780-1050 You might want to request for their catalog also. Hope this helps you out.

D. West <>
All, Over USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 04:40:15 (EDT) 

Sgt.G: Eagle Industries and Premier Reticles also carry T type preset torque wrench to 65 in/lbs. Price - 65-70 bucks.
harry <>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 08:56:15 (EDT) 
Pat: On one piece bases adding strength: This is probably more myth than anything else. It would seem, at first glance, to be a common sense thing and intuitively correct. But I have heard from several notable gun smiths that a one piece base does not really add any strength to the action. They can on the other, hand stress an action easily.

Example: I just pulled my Leupold one piece base from my PSS. I removed the rear screw first and the base immediately sprung up about .020ths! This much bending could easily have affected the alignement of the scope. It most certainly stressed the action. I plan on replacing the one piece base with the Mk4 base and ring set. I will probably have to shim the rear base to get it level with the front. The lesson here: ALWAYS check your bases for squareness! I assumed the prior owner had done this. Hopefully once rectified, my problem with the VX-III LR M3 will go away.
Scott <>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 09:50:22 (EDT) 

I just recalled some interesting results from a test I read about back in the 80's. The object was to see just how much delfection a bullets underwent when it hit wood enroute to the target. They tester fabricated a block with a series of wooded dowels pegged to it, to represent twigs. Both spitzer bullets and Round Nose were fired through the "twigs". Contrary to long held belief, the spitzers actually deflected LESS! I can not recall the results on various weights (heavy vs. light) but I do recall the results not being exaclty what you would expect. I do however, recall that very heavy bullets were just as subject to deflection as medium weight bullets - again, blowing that long standing belief away.

The comments on knock down power reminded me of this and it goes to this point: We have all over the years been subject to a lot of information that has been passed through history and accepted as fact. If repeated enough, it becomes "true". The gun media is very guilty of this. They just repeat what they have heard for years. "Knock down power", particularly in handguns, borders on hoax. With out starting another arguement on the topic, handgun bullets generally put a person down by rapid loss of blood pressure, or deflation of the lungs. All of those I know who have been in pistol fights had one general comment to make: "What did the guy do after I shot him? The same thing he did BEFORE I shot him." In otherwords, keep shooting!

I bring up the above not to stir up the handgun controversy again, but to hopefully highlight why we have to take things like Knock Down Power with a grain of salt.

Sorry for taking up so much space. Slow day here...
Scott <>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 10:05:28 (EDT) 

My Kingdom for a spell checker in the roster! Sorry guys1 That last post had some real interesting finger fuax pas!
Scott P. <typing hades>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 10:08:33 (EDT) 
Thanks for the info on the one piece base. You sure could have fooled me. I've always used the two piece bases and went to the one piece base out of necessity when I needed more scope adjustment. I figured it would be easier to shim. Doesn't the Marine's use the one piece base on their sniper rifles??I thought I had read some where that the reason that they did was because it was stronger and stiffened the action. Maby we can start another debate on which is the best mounting system NAAH...these guys dont really have opinions on such things(HA-HA) But while were talking about bases and rings how do you get the proper elevation out of the MK-4 set up? It looks like the scope sets fairly high off the barrel.

I understand your frustration on trying to have a barrel chambered for a particular round. Once again AL can probably answer this better,that is if he's done with his "HOMEWORK" the sly dog. I've been told that most reamers are cut to the standard or min. SAMI specs so the throat will be a "Standard" length not cut for a specific bullet. Some gunsmiths have reamers special made for a certain caliber and bullet design but they are for a certain application only. The "OBERMEYER" reamer may well be one of these.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 12:05:14 (EDT) 

So, how many of those out-of-town LE guys that were in D.C.
to attend the funerals were busted by ATF for carrying?

After all, once out of their jurisdiction, they're just like
any other citizen, right? And they were in Washington, D.C., home of the nation's most restrictive gun laws, right?

By the way, since when did LE officers quit being "civilians"?

They can quit their job any time they want to, unlike military personnel.

USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 12:18:59 (EDT) 

Thanks for a great and informative hang out for thoose who enjoy the shooting spoorts
Delwyn Wheeler <N/A>
Grace, Idaho USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 14:32:31 (EDT) 
Hey what happened to Torf and Gooch?? I seen a picture of Gooch in Mike Lau's new book and he doesn't look so "EVIL" In fact he looks like a real nice guy!! There Gooch if your feelings were hurt by the other guys calling you "EVIL" you can come back on line now. Well have a good weekend all you guys, I'll catch up on monday.
Pat <>
Pierre, SD USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 15:22:08 (EDT) 

Thanx to all, for the information on the torque wrench. But now that we are on an actual good sniper related topic again. Lets talk about the base and ring set ups we are using. I also have the Leupold Long Range M3. I had it right when it came out. I was also having the problem of lost elevation. So now i am switching to that once piece scope base from Autaga Arms. It is sold and looks to be a winner. I am gonna use the Mk4 rings with it. I hope this solves my problem. We will see I sent my rifle off for some work by the guys at Autaga Arms. When i get it back here in the next two weeks. We will see and i'll let everyone know. As for the Marine Corps we use a one piece mount, last i knew it was made by are armors in Quantico.

Sgt. G.

Sgt. Gimmellie <>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 16:27:33 (EDT) 

Say, fellas, I missed the Grenier article on SPR. Anyone know where I could find it, in an archive or something?

Also: 200% casualties in a rifle company, from Normany 'til VE day, weren't uncommon. I read a book called "Band of Brothers," about E Co., 506th Infantry (I think...have to check). They dropped into Normandy the night before the invasion, and fought across Europe. In that time, they suffered roughtly 200% casualties, as I recall, and they weren't unusual. So if he found that unrealistic, he's out to lunch.

RE: the discussion of terminal ballistics for service ammo. Hey, if you can't have hollow points or soft points, you oughta at least have something that makes about seven sharp turns in the body. If it punches straight through, you have a small permanent cavity that's as long as the body was on its axis of travel. If it gets inside and whizzes around until it stops, the permanent cavity is still small, but it's much, much longer. That means more bleeding, which oughta mean he's down that much faster----a good thing, in my book! If it doesn't make turns, then I'd be happy if it flipped over and over while it ricocheted around....making a "keyhole" looking permanent cavity. Again---bigger, meaning more bleeding, meaning he's out of the picture faster. As far as "unstable" bullets and accuracy---the Corps has always fired the service rifle out to 500 m, and as far as I know, there hasn't been any sudden drop in scores since we went to the heavier bullet and faster twist rate. So that doesn't concern me.

Regarding acceptable accuracy for a service rifle: most (MOST, fellas----dont' get too wrapped up in it!) basic infantrymen don't do a lot of shooting out past 300 m in combat. If it's good enough to hit a man-sized target at 500, it's PLENTY accurate enough for most purposes.
Matt <>
GA USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 16:43:23 (EDT) 

Pat, what do you mean by proper elevation out of the Mk4 setup? I noticed you said your scope is mounted fairly high of the barrell. I would just put the lover setup on it. My M1 clears the barrell by a very small fraction and with the 2.5" shade, I have barely enough room for the cover. I, like you, used Mk4 rings but not on a Mk4 bases and it was a perfect fit. My rear base is shimmed by .0010" and that seems to be plenty.
harry <>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 16:55:35 (EDT) 
Knockdown power as I heard it first used in the 50s by Askins and Keith and a few of those was applied to big (BIG) game. It had nothing to do with some body standing on one leg. It had to do with whether a particular caliber/weapon/bullet was likely to take down a big game animal quickly. Knotheads later started literally interpreting it in pistol terms. It simply means (to me anyway) whether a pistol or rifle is more likely to take down something quickly. Relative don't ya see?
Nathan: remember that it was a long time ago when Patton made that statement and a lot of rifles have been developed since. Don't make me use the K word. Last time I did that Dick Culver came out of his hide and chastised me till I was ashamed and my dad's grave was disturbed!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 17:12:53 (EDT) 

Yep, you're right about "knockdown" power, of course. Only knuckleheads (and there are plenty out there) interpret the term literally. Still, those who do need people like us to "fix" them!

As for the good General's're right, although at the time it was uttered, he was absolutely correct!
Matt <>
GA USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 18:01:52 (EDT) 

Re: Obermeyer reamers


I realize that you are talking about a .300 Win. Mag. in a Winchester action, but let me comment on the .308 Obermeyer reamers and Remington actions for the rest of the viewers. Some of this may apply to your situation. I am not familiar with the .300 Win Mag Obermeyer, but it may have the same features as a .308 Win. I own a .308 Obermeyer reamer and blueprint.

Besides throat length, the throat diameter spec is tightened up and this spec is more important than throat length. Our .308 bullets (Sierras) are exactly .3080" (7.823mm) in diameter, and the Obermeyer reamer cuts the throat to .3085" (7.835mm) diameter. Assuming a perfectly concentric cartridge (bullet/case) is in the chamber then the bullet could not be more than .0025" (.0635mm) out of concentric with the barrel. A Remington extractor holds the rim on one side and the very strong ejector plunger is pushing hard on the other side, and this does nothing good for cartridge/barrel alignment. The larger the throat the more the bullet will angled into the side of the barrel. This causes a lop sided, off balance, non concentric bullet to emerge from the barrel. This is a poor way to start (and end) the life of an excellent bullet.

I don't have a "factory" .308 Win. print handy so I can't tell you exactly what the throat diameters are. But I'm sure they are much looser than this fine custom Obermeyer type reamer. In the above paragraph I did not mention the cartridge neck/chamber neck spec as an alignment feature because they are darn loose and do not come into play.

Your Obermeyer chamber will give you all the accuracy possible in that particular area. Of course the chamber is only one of many variables in rifle accuracy. But a good chamber gives you a very good foundation on which to work.

My reamer is from JGS and the .308 Obermeyer is a stock item there.

As an aside. The August Precision Shooting has an article on the all new H. S. Precision rifle. It is a combination of Remington and Winchester. Round action with sandwiched recoil lug. Winchester safety and bolt release. Coned boltface and Sako type extractor. This sounds like the way Remington should be making them.

That's all for now.

Ron N. <>
Ohio USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 19:37:31 (EDT) 

Sarge sneaks out of his hide and asks:
OK, here we go for a real "discussion" (again)- some of us (like Sarge!) don't have - and probably never will have the $$$ to buy any of the really "good" weapons and scopes etc as many of you do. But we make do - very well thank you - with what we have. In my case a Savage 110FP .308 (well there is the start I said the "S" word) and a Tasco SS10x42 with Burris Signature rings and plain jane Weaver bases. Now here is what I need the help/advice etc with. I want to replace the stock! Oh boy here we go!! Prefer synthetic, "tactical" type/style. I know, I know - H&S or MacMillin - BUT - I don't have a fortune and don't want to wait 6+ months, well you get the picture! And of course we all know what we think of the Choate stock so DON'T go there!! Ok guys help old Sarge out here - give me some suggestions!

Russ - yes I called today for that catalog but exploring my options!

Sarge sneaks back to his hide and waits for return fire!
Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 20:38:35 (EDT) 

To Pat, re. 6.5mm Sierra MK in .260rem with Leupold Mk4-M3.

Assuming you have the M3 with the ballistic cam for .300wm/220grMK@2600fps you have to make some small compromises if you want to match it up with Sierra 6.5mm bullets in .260rem. None of the Sierra MK's have the BC of the 220gr .30 cal MK. It is possible to match the trajectories very close though. Get the 6.5mm Sierra MK with the highest BC in the 140gr class. Today they make a new 140gr MK SuperMatch, 142gr MK and 144gr MK. I'm not quite sure wich one at the moment who has the highest BC. The best 6.5mm should have a BC around .570 compared to the .30cal/220gr BC .630. To make the comeups on the M3 as accurate as possible with the .260rem you have to push the 6.5mm bullet a little faster than the .30cal at 2600fps. Study a ballistic table. If you push a 6.5mm with BC .570 to 2700fps and use a 300yds zero, with the ballistic cam on the scope set at 3, you should end up with identical bulletdrop at 1000yds( scope set at 10). At 100 and 200yds the 6.5mm bullet will hit less than .4" low. On the ranges between 300 and 1000yds the 6.5mm bullet will have a slightly higher trajectory than the .30cal. but not more than max. 2.5" at approx. 750yds. before both trajectories ends up with the same point of impact at 1000yds. The differenses in trajetories are so small that they can almost be ignored. Teoretically going for headshots you can ignore the differenses under 300yds and use the mouth as aimingpoint at all ranges from 300 to 1000yds and get a first shot hit. In real life all the other factors like rangeestimating, winddrift, temperature and (shooters) accuracy has a much bigger influence on point of impact.

Lapua and Berger makes 140gr bullets that matches the .30cal/220gr BC of .630. Push these 6.5mm to 2600fps and you can forget the above. The trajectories are almost identical.

One last point. It seems to be easier to get the best accuracy with the Sierra 6.5mm MK bullets compared with other VLD bullets. The Sierras also seems to be more accurate in worn barrels.
Oslo, Norway - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 20:54:21 (EDT) 

Knock Down: I'm sorry but I haven't heard what convinced you all that Knock Down indeed is a bogus term. Is the one legged man having himself shot that convinced you that a bullet does not impart momentum in the direction of the it's flight? Or is it that the minimal nature of it's apparent effect that causes you to desire the term be disavowed? I honestly am trying to understand!!!!!

Signed, The Knothead or was it Knucklehead.

SPR: Yes what I saw was him having both eyes open and looking across his body that caused me to believe I had seen the sniper as right eye dominant. My fault. But why did he grab the Parallax end of the barrell and say 2 click for wind. Does this type of scope have that type of adjustment? Or was he torqueing the rings to get rid of his single piece scope mount flex in the action?
tom <>
FR, VA USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 21:16:23 (EDT) 

I have a Remington 700 PSS and I just bought a Tasco SSN10x42. I'm now looking for base/ring combination and would like your suggestions.

PLease give a newby some help.

Sandy <>
Margaritaville, KY USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 22:07:18 (EDT) 

Hey you said to send all questions through you so what I need is (if you could) to tell me all the matierals that I would need to make a custom, yet professional looking ghillie suit for paintball? If you could please email me at

Thanx for your time:
John Keller < >
Theodore, AL USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 22:26:22 (EDT) 

Does anyone know if the Leupold Mark 4 bases and rings are the same as the M.W.G. Co. Tactical Rings and Bases? They sure look the same in the catalogs, and the descriptions sound the same.

I've noted several people here have and/or used the mark 4 system. Is it worth the extra $? I don't mind paying top dollar for good, functional stuff, but really hate paying $$$ for a name.

To the SC "committee": Thanks for making this site possible. Although not a military or LEO, (but former Signal Corp officer, if that's safe to admit), I have a great interest in long range marksmanship and field shooting. This site is the single most informative source of all the lists, chat rooms, and other sites that I frequent. I check in daily. Thanks.

Bruce Coons <>
Copperas Cove, TX USA - Friday, July 31, 1998 at 22:31:31 (EDT)