April 1, 1999 to April 7, 1999

Got a remake on a Colt 7.62x39 flat top converted to 5.56. She is now wearing a Bushmaster 26" heavy 1x9. Put an RPA 1/4 min rear sight (mounts right on top or any weaver mount)and an adjustable front base with a Tompkins front sight and I have me a shooter. She will shoot the Hornady 75gr A-max w/24.5 Varget better'n me at 600. Haven't tried her at 1000 yet but thats coming. What do you think, a keeper?

Shadow
Tim <timdel@open.org>
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 03:39:25 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the reply. The thing that was confusing about the article was that the author seem to imply that recoil vs. terminal velocity was the key. The guys at SC did not seem to agree at all. I asked the questions because I did not have the experience to know if his examples were valid or not. The way the article was written he seem to be saying that the .257 was hitting much harder, hence the confusion.

Eyeman
EyeMan <stepmont@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 05:40:50 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 12:43:29 (ZULU) 

I called Savage with the question of what the torque should be of the two pillar bedded stock screws: 25 ft/lbs (or however you write it). I set mine to this, based on this answer, and I felt that it was on the low side of tight. They were tightened, but not
won't-vibrate-open tight, so I asked if there would be any ramifications of tightening the screws any further. I was told that the reason the screws should not be tighter is that you run the risk of "causing the bolt to close hard" (I assume from the protruding through the action and into the bolt). There didn't seem to be any other reason why the screws couldn't be tightened further.

Truth be told, I had mine up to about 50 with no ill effects, so use your best judgement, about 35 might be perfect, but be aware of the official numbers.

Also I couldn't get any instructions egarding stripping the bolt down for cleaning. They say let a gunsmith do it. Whatever.

Anyway this might be of some interest to any Savage tactical owners.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 15:11:02 (ZULU) 

For those of you who do not log into the Roster via the main page, you might have missed Sniper Country’s new section, The Sniper Country PX.

Yup. That is right. I have decided to retail some of the gear we are all interested in. I hope I can keep the prices down so that we all can enjoy this stuff at a reasonable fee. The prices might change based on what happens with the sales and shipping end. With luck, I will be able to under sell most of the normal outlets. Some prices might go down. Only time will tell.

I am excited to announce that I will be carrying Mike Miller’s Tactical slings as well as the other products listed. Also I am working on the IOR 7x40 binos I got to play with last weekend. Hold your optics cash guys. These things blow away the glass coming out of the orient. Best of all they are very affordable. I did not get to test them but they were clear to the edges and very bright. Mil reticle. Armored. The quality is outstanding. If you can get them elsewhere, DO SO NOW! But if you can wait a short bit, we’ll have them too. These things rank right up there with the big names. I think Zeiss is part of the production team. They cost less than the Tasco Offshore’s I wrote about! My goal is to bring you good deals like this when I find them.

This will be the last I have to say on the Roster about the PX. The MAIN site’s goal remains the same as always and I do NOT want the Roster to turn into a sales department! If you have specific questions please direct them to me at xring@voicenet.com. Please avoid using the Roster for this as I do not want it to become a sales platform. Check the PX occasionally as you might miss something of interest. With luck, it will always be growing.

As the PX grows I hope to be able to offer you items at the best price around. If this does not work out, well, at least we tried. I hope you all can benefit from the growth of Sniper Country. Please think of the PX as a separate entity, but made possible by SC. The PX is there for your benefit. The "magazine" portion of the site will not change. The reviews will remain true and honest and the direction of the site will continue as is. Thanks for your time and please forgive the business talk. Now back to the good stuff.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 16:37:54 (ZULU) 

Thanks for any info...
Brian
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 17:06:59 (ZULU) 

sorry for that glitch, but I have no idea how that happened, or how to prevent it in future. Those of you who were missing a week's information, it was because, at some stage, somebody succeeded in including the first part of the Roster in their post. Thus it appeared as if some was missing, but I assure you it was not.

Take care, and enjoy your Easter. Remember what it is all about.

See you all next week.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 18:48:18 (ZULU) 

I flubbed it on "down under"

how about "Significantly below the Mason-Dixon line"

"Lower than Cro-Magnum......"

"Little lower than Homo-erectus but right around Homo-Afrikanus"

off to play with "crayons, cards, and courtesy" for the night

chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 19:03:26 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:13:20 (ZULU) 

Andre,
Don't you mean 25 "INCH" pounds and not "FOOT" pounds for torque on the action screws for the Savage?? I don't have any Savages but I am sure that they would not be torqued in "FOOT" pounds. I would hate to see someone twist off their action screws this is a easy mistake to make when talking torque because we usually think of it as "FOOT" pounds.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:16:01 (ZULU) 

Don't know how I missed that.

Savage pillar bedded stock screws should be tightened to 25 inch/lbs NOT ft/lbs. Obvious, but I misprinted it anyway.

Thanks for catching me Pat before I caused someone to get really pissed!

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:54:16 (ZULU) 

M. Hite <michael_hite@maxtor.com>
longmont, co, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 21:47:38 (ZULU) 

Did you hear they found a new use for sheep in Montana?
They get wool from 'em.

Any way, please remember it's a joke. I love Montana, been there several times and the bore cleaner works fine. If you have an unreasonable fear of ammonia, stay away.
Butch, E-mail me and I'll tell you wear top send the T-shirt.
Oh, yeah, do not buy online or e-mail from anyone but Russ Haydon's shooter's supply. Great people

God bless those guys being held in Serbia.
 

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 00:22:57 (ZULU) 

What are your real requirements in a scope? If varminting is you true goal, look no further than the B&L Elite 4000 line. The 6-24x scope is excellent. While I do not like 1/8 moa clicks for various reasons not worth devling into here, this scope is just great out to about 450 to 500 yards with the .308 win. After that forget it as it does not have enough elevation unless you go to tapered bases.

Try to stick with 1/4 moa clicks for target and varmint with this caliber. These will have more internal adjustment. You'll need it. Also look at the Leupold line. They have a lot of choices. So many I lose track. I think they have a 6-20x that has a lot of internal adjustment. Visit their site. Or visit Premier Reticles. Check our Links section for the addresses.

One thing -- on your goal of shooting deer at 500 yards, please practice A LOT at this range before you try such a shot. I know a lot of guys read this site and assume one can take really long shots on game animals and win, but it does not take much to end up wounding your game. They deserve better treatment. It is easy to confuse sniping with hunting. Very similar skill set. But in sniping if a troop wounds a bad guy, so it goes. Kills are better but woundings tie up enemy resources too. But in hunting we all owe it to the game and fellow hunters to assure a KILL. Wounded animals just give those bone head anti-hunting "I buy my meat in stores" types something to cry about and take to congress. If you believe in hunting and hunting rights, ONE shot ONE kill is paramount. Sorry for the soap box.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 00:51:46 (ZULU) 

JEFF <jkCartwright@Blomand.net>
McMinnville, TN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 02:35:40 (ZULU)

As a practical matter, would a 12-40 power spotting scope have a great advantage over a fixed 25 power such as the Leupolds? This scope will have to double for bench and field.

In a field condition, would a spotter have a spotting scope with a mildot or would the shooter be responsible for milling the target?

Trying to find info on binocular powers. For hunting and field use, what is the ideal power realitive to carry weight and size? The Steiners are going to be out of my price range. Would rather apply a little more money to the spotting scope.

In a field condition, would a binocular with rangefinding or a mildot be of practical use? It would seem redundant and timeconsumiing to take the time to range find with the binos and then with the rifle scope.

I spoke with a nationally ranked long range shooter recently and he indicated that he does not lap his scope rings. If the rings are properly alligned using an anlignment tool, is lapping a benificial process? Does removing the finish on the inside of the rings lead to oxidation? How do you know when you have completed the lapping process?
 
 
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 02:37:21 (ZULU) 

There isn't too much advantage to a 40 over a 25, though I'm sure I'll get incoming over that comment. The Leupold 25x is very small, and can be had with an OD case with ALICE clips, and Mil-dots with 1 mil spacing... a very nice spotters rig.
The 12-40 Leupold can also be had with 1 mil dots... but is larger (and more expensive).

>In a field condition, would a spotter have a spotting scope
>with a mildot or would the shooter be responsible for
>milling the target?

It would be ideal if the spotter can read mils... first, the spotter will be doing the ranging, the math, and windage... and it would be good for two opinions on the target size in mils. Second, if the first shot is off (heaven forbid) the spotter can quickly give a correction in mils, and the shooter can hold the correction, and fire.

I would vote for cheap bins, and a good scope.
Bins usually have their graduations in 5 or 10 mils, and that (for me) isn't fine enough.

"How do you know when you have completed the lapping process?"

When all the bluing is gone!
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:05:39 (ZULU) 

Little anectdote for the 'rusty bore' crowd. I was diggin' around the chamber lathe's barrel rack and found a 7BR XP100 barrel there. It was chambered, threaded, teflon coated, the whole 9 yds. This is unusual to be lying around the barrel racks so I ask the chambering god, "Hey, why is this barrel here?" He says we built a 7BR for this guy, shot like a champ, sent it off to him. A couple weeks later the gun comes back with a note attached saying that," ...it shot great, but there seems to be rust in the bore...", so he wanted a new barrel. I had never laughed so hard in my life, we use stainless steel barrels.

later
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:14:01 (ZULU) 

All ideas welcome.
Thanks
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:17:49 (ZULU) 

no comprende on the barrel defect you speak of. Is this scratch inside the bore? off the crown? Is this a used gun? If this is a new gun and your rifling is already bunged up, I'd be giving Remington a call instead of posting on this site. Accuracy may or may not be affected, but a defect such as that would just love to 'foul' up your day.

adios

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:24:42 (ZULU) 

I have a sheperd scope on my 7 mag. so far i have shot it out to 700 yrds. at ranges to there it is right on the money for drop. The optics
are good too. it is brighter with its 40mm lens than my tasco world class 50mm was. (i realise thats not saying much).

The one shot zero crap they advertise doesnt work but what the hell.
The ranging works great for me with 150 gr bt bullets. If you get one be sure to buy the reticle that matches the weight and speed bullets you are going to shoot.

I have no experince with the springfield scope but the reticle looked less user friendly to me. they both have web sites.
hope this helps.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:25:33 (ZULU) 

I don't know a whole hell of a lot about hammer forged barrels, but we used to make a few button barrels, no more, but we used to copper plate the bore after pulling the button through. Now this wouldn't be the 'rust' this guy is seeing, is it guys??
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
snowed in, rapid city, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:29:49 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:45:36 (ZULU) 

Slings are like this. I am spending all my extra time making them. Rod Ryan had placed the first and a huge order so his will be filled first. Scott and TRGT placed orders at same time so they will get shipped after Rod's. All places have agreed to charge the same price $50.00 plus shipping Retail. If you guys want the slings please call Rod, Scott or TRGT, they have all taken a chance on the product and I wont be doing sales to compete with my friends. Now the guys I promised slings to before all this transpired, they will be shipped next week if I have to stay up all night to do them. I am getting pretty good with this souped up sewing machine, I just hope I dont sew my hand to the table (again)

The UnDude Mike

Pete I am going to load some Varget this week no matter what my friend.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:56:55 (ZULU) 

Another reason I say "Why Cro-Moly??" It's a pain in the ass to machine AND it rusts!!! What rifling process does Remington use on their SS barrels? I just received one the other day, was wondering if the Hammer Forge process was used on them. Wouldn't take long to find out, have a bore scope handy.
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:00:21 (ZULU) 

Thank you.
Joey
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:30:42 (ZULU) 

Hope that helps.

Rock
Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
TN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:37:30 (ZULU) 

I'd save up the extra pennies and just go with the Springfield. By the time you buy the parts and have the work done to the Poly-Tech, you will have almost the same amount invested. You will never be sorry buying quality. Heck, think of the resale potential, that in itself is worth it, even if you dont think you will ever sell the rifle.

Im not totally knocking the Chinese M14's...they do work with a "makeover" (like Smith Enterprises provides), but in this case, get the Springfield.

Just my .02 (Confederate) cents.
Grenadier2 <grenadier2@earthlink.net>
FireBase Bandit, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:47:06 (ZULU) 

Question:Is it true that Varget powder wears a bore faster?
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 05:33:34 (ZULU) 

Alot of typing about the military M49 spotting scope. Are any military spotting scopes or binos available to the public and where can you get them?

As usual, thanks
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:34:57 (ZULU) 

The Answer: Leupold or B&L.

If you just have to have one of the others the Sprinfield would probably make more sense. Since you are using it on a .223, get the one with the 40mm objective.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:38:33 (ZULU) 

Bolt: On Binos. 7x40 are about the largest you'd want to carry. I carry a set of 7x50s but only because they happen to be pretty light as 50s go. When you start adding up all of the other useful crap you have to hump, it just does not make sense to carry really big glass. 10x50s are definitely out. Heavy. More eye strain. A quality set of 7x40s will be VERY bright. Brighter than junk 10x50s. Way brighter.

Another thing to think about, the larger the glass, the less steady the image. You can glass an objective or target area for quite some time with a 7x40. When you move up to bigger glasses you will see more jiggle and you will usually suffer more eye strain over the same time period. It is better to use smaller binos to scan an area and then switch to the spotting scope to ID things that catch your eye. Typical hunters trick.

You will not find many spotting scopes with mil reticles. In some cases they can be installed by Premier. The binos should always have mils in them for this reason.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:57:54 (ZULU) 

Seriously though, if you are worried about rust, you can easily re-blue the metal with a cold blue process. I wouldn't bother though. All I would do is mask off the rings and hit the bare area with some red-oxide Rustoleum primer. If you wanted, you can then paint the inside of the ring with a coat of matt black paint.

I know a lot of people say you do not need to lap rings. Most are hunters and casual shooters. But some are top flight masters. I look at it this way, it won’t hurt and it certainly will help. I did not do this practice for years. But if you are very attentive when you install the rings, you will notice that they almost NEVER line up exactly. When you drop a scope in, this is easy to miss, but if you leave the ring tops off and lay a steel rod in the rear ring and slide it forward -- while assuring it stays in contact with the inside of the ring -- you will usually note that when the rod gets to the forward ring it does not slide right in. It usually hits the bottom lip or edge of the second ring. This is showing you a misalignment. It’ll stress your scope or action. Most people think of lapping as a way to solve the side to side twist that turret type bases can allow, but you also have to worry about VERTICAL misalignment. One ring can be higher than another, especially with two piece bases. But even a good set of one piece bases can allow this because the ACTION itself might not be perfect. If there is twist introduced into the set up because the mounting screw holes are drilled a little off center in the receiver, the base will have twist in it – resulting in ring misalignment.

If you use a rod to mount the rings in alignment with out actually lapping them in, what are you doing? Stressing the action? The rings are forced into alignment and the steel rod is stronger than the open action. When you remove the rod form the rings, the action will unload. Now when you install the scope and tighten the ring caps, you are stressing the scope. The is no free lunch. If you do not lap the rings, something else will have to give if misalignment is present.

The job takes about 15 minutes to a half hour. Simple Elbow grease. No brains required. The result removes one more variable from your system and as well know, variables are what kills accuracy. Dive right in and do not worry about removing the finish. That can easily be covered up! Good luck.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 13:21:38 (ZULU) 

I'm sure this info will be very useful to me and a few other Savage owners. You forgot the cardinal rule of dissassembling things however: The number of loose parts left on the workbench after the job must equal EXACTLY the number of loose parts that were there before you started ripping things apart. That's the theory anyway ;-)

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 13:44:19 (ZULU) 

On bins, someone I shoot against bought a pair of M19's somewhere, and didn't like them... I took them from him at the last match, and I'm not thrilled. They are biggish, and heavy for what they are, and have 10 mil reticles.

I'm looking at getting a pair of the I.O.R. Valdada 7x40's with the IR viewing thingie... Al-O baby got a pair, and says they're slicker than Owl Poop... and they're not expensive. There is also the Steiner 8x30 Mil, and if you don't need a twilight glass, these are ideal. Very small, with a Mils reticle.

Scott...
Loved your answer to "Which is better, Sheppard or Springfield"...
except it should be...
The Answer: B&L or Leupold.!

... and it's true, there are no bargans in optics. The are some very good optics coming in from the Eastern Block countries now, and these companies were set up by Carl Zeiss Yena (the East German half of Carl Zeiss GMBH.). They are optically very good, but tend to be mechanically somewhat lacking. I recall someone on this site said their Tac scope was optically very good, but the adjustments were "Micky Mouse"!
I do have two Springfields, a first gen .308/56mm and one of the .223/40mm's, both with Springfield's auto ranging reticle. The reticle is a bit cluttered, but the fastest scope to put on a long range target I've ever seen... no pocket calculators, no look-ups, no log books, no bcd dials... you see it, 3 seconds later, it falls down!
And I like the built in bubble level, I have become a true believer.

You can buy the Leupold 25x50 and 12x40 spotting scopes with one mil dots in them, from Premier, but they won't put the dots in your scope.
They do a large batch of scopes (50-100) at a time, and can't afford to do them one at a time.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:01:38 (ZULU) 

Semper fi, Russell

Ruskle74@aol.com
Russell <Ruskle74@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:03:40 (ZULU) 

I just purchased the Death From Afar series and it is wonderful. It is five volumes now (I have to wait for V. II to be reprinted in June). I would HIGHLY recommend any of you Hathcock fans to get their book White Feather, about you-know-who. Mine's autographed by the Authors at the man himself.

Anyway, if you want to get ahold of the Iron Brigade Armory, get in touch with Norm Chandler Jr. @ M40shooter@AOL.com

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:11:26 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 16:17:18 (ZULU) 

I did not say you could not use 10x binos to good effect. They work fine under a ton of situations. But I was not answering a HUNTING question. What I was referring to was the size and weight of your average 10x50 when compared to a 7x40. I have owned a lot of 10x50s over the years, both junk ones and decent ones. For all around use they were my favorites. Bye and large they are all on the heavy side - when compared to the smaller 7x’s. Let me specify that: When carried alone with nothing more than a rifle and a little gear, 10x50s were plenty fine. But when combined with a loaded ruck or in drag bag, the extra weight is tough to justify. Figure a ruck or drag bag might have a 20x spotting scope, a tripod for same, a modified camera tripod for a rifle support, ammo, shooting sticks, data books, binos, food, and other items you just can't find any other space for. A ruck has a lot more than this! The weight can get a little annoying on a stalk. So keeping in mind that when answering the question "what kind of binos" would a sniper carry, I answered thinking in those terms. For a troop going on a long hump, there is little to justify big glass. He already has a spotting scope for checking out details. He also has bright 10x rifle scope. The binos are for scanning and target acquisition. You do not need a big set for this, especially when you take into account all the other crap the guy has to carry. Whether he has a ruck or a drag bag (or both!), when you add it all in there it is nice to be able to cut corners on weight when ever and where ever you can. The performance of a quality set of 7x40s is just outstanding, so why hump the extra weight and size of the 10x50s? You have three means of observing targets (binos, scope, spotter scope) and all weigh a good bit, so why carry the extra ounces? It ain’t an indictment against 10x50s. It is just common sense fitting the tool to the task.

10x50s are more prone to operator induced image flutter than 7x. Think about it. If you observe an object using an UNSUPPORTED hold you will introduce a little jingle into the image. This is amplified as you increase the magnification. At 7 power it is barely noticeable. At 10x it is more noticeable and at 20x the target is wobbling so much you might as well not bother. These affects are amplified over time. The longer you look the worse it seems to get especially as you tire. A sniper might spend hours behind his glass. Not the look, scan, rest, of a hunter. He might have to have these things glued to his face for a nasty length of time. He is human and will tire and suffer eye strain no matter WHAT he is using. It makes sense then to go with what will forestall the inevitable for the longest amount of time. 7x40s are a good balance between magnification, resolution, clarity and weight.

Now, coming back to the original question. Why carry big glass when you already have TWO other methods of viewing that DO require support? At least with the lower power binos you can view objects in just about any position, supported or not, with out suffering any adverse effects from muscle strain or shakes. I never said throw out your 50s. I answered Bolt in the way I did because I took his question to be related sniping use. In short, sure, you can use 50s! But if you got 50 pounds of shit on your back already, you have to look real hard at why. This help?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 19:59:02 (ZULU) 

On your question about loads for 300 WM. For a 190gr MK or VLD bullet, I have tried several powders:

1. VV N160: start at 68 gr and increase in 0.5 gr increments. I would go no higher than 72.0 gr. The most accurate load was 69.0 gr for Sierra 190 gr MK and 70 gr. for Berger 190 VLD. I would seat Sierra 0.010 " off lans, and seat Berger to touch lans.

2. VV N560: above specs except 70.0 gr for both bullet types. You can increase the charge a bit more ( not much ) before "shadetree" pressure signs show up... meaning primer cratering and/or difficult case extraction.

3. IMR 4350 ( or H4350 ): I agree with Pat on that one.

4. IMR 7828: slower burn rate so start at 71.0 gr and increase in 0.5 gr increments. I would go no higher than 74.0 gr. Actually, I used 7828 for tests on Berger 210 gr. VLDs. A load of 73.5 gr. was best in this case. Bullet seated to just touch lans.

Please bear in mind that ALL of above testing was done with moly coated bullets. This is just what I had succes with in my rifle. Start at a relatively low charge (*** Check a reloading manual***) and work up.

Pat:

Haven't tried 4064 in 260 yet. Will tomorrow on some 142s. Did try seating 142s to feed in short action mag. Using 38.0 Varget, got sub-1/2 MOA at 100, 200, and 300 yds.

PeteR:

Varget 43.5 in LC case and 175MK seated to mag. feed. 1" 5 shot at 300yd. approx. 0.40 cal hole at 100yd. Bueno.

Sure hope Varget is not the " barrel chewer" some have mentioned.

Scott:

I take my hat off to you ( my new SC hat, of course) on the job you've done with the hat and shirt. My current quandry is finding a nice large liberal anti-gun rally to wear it to :)
Many thanks for a job well done.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 23:27:05 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:16:13 (ZULU) 

The Bolt
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:54:17 (ZULU) 

mjoyce <mjoyce1313>
hockley, texas, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:58:36 (ZULU) 

Are you certain that your early barrels are cut rifled? As you know, Mike Walker (Remington) helped develop button rifling towards the end of WW II. He also got the Harts started with button rifling in the late '40s. Since the Harts have always used this method to good effect, I assumed that all 40X barrels were button rifled. Would you elaborate on why you think your barrels are cut. Can you point me towards some documentation? Just curious.

Re: stainless steel barrel rusting

I recently pulled a bloop tube from of a 40X ss barrel where it has resided for a year or so. Upon cleaning the deposits off the crown some were very resistant to solvent. So I applied a brass bristle brush with solvent. Even this didn't clean things entirely. Looking through a 10X loupe revealed pitting evenly disbursed across the barrel face. I think this rules out that the catalyst was Shooters Choice or Sweet's. In my opinion, the pitting, rust or corrosion was the result of leaving powder fouling in contact with 416 for a long period of time.

Now if "rust" (loosely defined), is pitting, then my 1977 or so 40X ss barrel rusted. But first let someone with the appropriate education or background define rust as opposed to corrosion. Does rust always have to be red in color?

I still remember the American Rifleman article where coupons of Ruger's ss handgun material and their normal chrome moly (4140?) material were subjected to black powder residue in a moist environment. The cm started to rust (corrode) first. But within a short period of time, perhaps a week or two, the ss material surpassed it in damage to the test coupons.

This is something to think about for those who leave their barrels fouled for extended periods of time. I know, the reasoning is to have that first shot hopefully, be the center of the next group. But we must keep in mind that as fouling ages in the barrel it become hard and this certainly would not provide the same friction as would soft (fresh) fouling. Also, the first shot out of a cold barrel is normally about hundred fps slower than the following ones. Once again, that first shot will exit the barrel at an unusual point in the barrel whip. I always used to think that the first shot would be faster due to the film of lubricant that remains after cleaning, but the Oehler set me straight. That cold barrel absorbs a lot of heat. I am not saying that this is the only cause, but at least one of a few possibilities. People who have experience with molied bullets say they give lower velocities because of lower resistance chamber pressure. Perhaps as my barrel dirties itself the bullet meets more resistance and hence chamber pressure is enhanced. Things are so hard to pin down in rifle shooting. So many variables.

At yearly Wimbledon matches with a .300 Win. Mag. the first shot out of a cold clean barrel is always about 2 ft. low. The next rises a foot or so. After 3 shots I start to seriously adjust for zero. This is a Hart barrel on a Hall Express action and is a dedicated Wimbledon rifle. The scope is never removed so I'm pretty darn sure of my zero. I did not shoot in 1998 due to employment constraints.

I hard copied the long letter written by Boots. It is a treasure trove of info. Many thanks to the person who pointed it out.

That's all for now.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 02:36:31 (ZULU) 

On stainless "Rust"... if rusting is defined as red oxidation, maybe not, but if it is used as a generic term for corrosion, then yes, and I've seen very expensive photolab sinks deeply pitted from Dektol.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:03:51 (ZULU) 

Point is does anybody have even a clue what those torque values sould be for a 110fp in a Choate sniper?

?????????? !!!!!!!
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:14:07 (ZULU) 

btw, thanks for the info Bill
Brad M. <sqirrely01@hotmail.com>
MI, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:24:25 (ZULU) 

Don't all metals "rust" "corrode" or "oxidize"?
My ATS-34 fighter/folder that is carried daily begins to show an unusual change in color on the non subdued area (read:edge of the blade)
Do I fall down prostate on the ground and wail to the gods of war for help,
NAWWW, lightly hone it off with a stone and go on my merry way. Snickerty Snack, Snickerty-Snack goes the dudes blade!

Bloop tubes are notorious for this very thing, and have been since their most recent inception about 8 -10 years ago. Guys why do you think the cleaning fervor is (WAS?) so high in the military?
SH^T, it even happens with them high grade BB guns........ and no powder is used, just air or CO2.

bottom line: MAINTAIN IT!

nOW WHERE CAN i FIT tHIS wAKizASHI ON MY DuTy BeLt?

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY , bY-gAwD, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 12:23:57 (ZULU) 

Chow Baby - you are dog meat now!!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
A couple of minutes to recollect my thought in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:09:00 (ZULU) 

Geez Al, is this after our team beats everyone else? or before.....

Sounds like fun count me in most "Fly Boyish" one,after all what are friends for

Heck, I'll even bring your "crown" Quasimodo ;-)

Love and Kisses from the Country,

peteR
peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
Big-City, By-gawd, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:21:08 (ZULU) 

Sandy
Sandy Cambron <Shiftysand@aol.com>
Florence, KY, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:21:14 (ZULU) 

With all of the side matches, Carlos II may have to run over to Tuesday afternoon...

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:08:04 (ZULU) 

Pablito: Thank you for "volunteering" to be our spotter. We need more people like you of high moral fiber and character, unlike some West Virginians we know.

al
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Hankerin'g to do your moral in here in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:21:52 (ZULU) 

Isn't "High Moral Fiber" some sorta' whole grain health cereal...
I eat greasy bacon cheeseburgers for breakfast... you guys are in trouble!

And I still have that road sign you sent me... why do you think I'm going to W.Va... for the shootin'?
Pablito
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:52:29 (ZULU) 

I make no claims at all about whether 25 inch/lbs is actually BEST for your rifle, or whether different stocks might be different or not. Only that I called Savage about my 10FP, and that's what they told me. Personally, I plan to experiment a little bit, but those are the official numbers. I posted the because they DO seem a bit low in comparison with other numbers I've seen tossed around. maybe Choate has info on their stock torquing for you?

Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 15:19:21 (ZULU) 

Mike T
 

Mike T <MicTac@AOL.com/>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 19:08:59 (ZULU) 

I just said I don't think the imp. give much more than the regular 260. A "slow" and "fast" barrel can make more difference. If you want to speed up go for 6.5/284.

I think VV N140/N540 is too fast in 260rem with 140gr bullets. In 6.5X55 with 140's VV N150 is the startingpoint going all the way to N160/165 and RL22/MRP. N140 builds up pressure too fast. With N160 it is possible to get 2500-2600fps with 140gr bullets with safe pressure in a Krag. The lo pressure (and temperature ? ) also seems to do wonders with barrellife. There used to be a special Krag-powder called NC96. It was impossible to make overloads with this powder. One full case + one 144gr bullet = 2550fps and 6-8000 round barrellife. Accuracy in machinerest was usually 10mm 10shot groups at 100m.

To Tony Y and Scott re. binocs.

I've been using Zeiss 10X40 BGA for years. They are exellent. I have no problem with 10X.

If you want lesser magnification and more compact binocs take a hard look at Zeiss 8X30 BGA. They outperform the 7X42 Zeiss in the field.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 21:08:53 (ZULU) 

JPinTX <pruett@inu.net>
Lufkin, TX, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 21:55:26 (ZULU) 

has anyone had problems with ar 15 lowers. I have built several in the past with essential arms and olympic lowers. I have a bushmaster on order but am growing older by the month waiting for it.

I hear some recievers were more trouble than they were worth. any info appriciated as always,
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 22:17:10 (ZULU) 

mikey
mike m. <panacea@ntplx.net>
enfield, ct, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 23:32:17 (ZULU) 

Two AR triggers really stand out among those I've seen. The Krieger-Milazzo and the recent Jewell. Both are expensive, and hard to get, but they are worthwhile if you can stand the wait.

The K-M (two-stage) does not require a complete shop to install, but does require a little work, especially on the "blocked" Colt's. It offers adjustment for second stage creep and the weight may be adjusted slightly with the trigger spring. This trigger comes in 3 and 4.5 lb models.

The Jewell (two-stage)is a true "drop in", but for the first time installer can be a short term nightmare. The instructions are a bit vague about the installation of the spring that secures the hammer/trigger pins. I guess I should say that the instructions completely ignore the whole affair! Other than this little glitch, the trigger is adjustable in all directions. The trigger portion, being a two piece arrangment, has a strange feel on the first stage, but breaks nicely when properly adjusted. Available weight ranges are from too light to very heavy.

Other two-stage triggers are available but are either not easily installed (or adjusted)or I have no experience with them.

The J-P Enterprises single stage trigger feels very good, but I worry about single stage triggers that must depend upon minimum engagement
to offer minimum creep. The chance for doubling at the wrong moment
are quite high.

The K-M and Jewell triggers sell for a little under $200.00. Custom installations may run to about $250.00. I think the J-P trigger sells for about $125.00 and is easily user installed.

Sorry that I probably left out several good triggers, but these I've seen and used. For critical use, I would personally choose the two stage every time.
 
 

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
WARM & WET SE, IL, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 00:01:33 (ZULU) 

Grey;
You are correct ,but what I should have said was the higher the carbon content the more prone to rust it will be.I suspect that barrel longevity is very much like edge holding ability and is at least partially a function of that carbon content.
 
 

I'm getting "server error"so I will appologize in advance if there are multiple posts.
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 01:31:33 (ZULU) 

Al and Andria O.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Celebrating the Joys of the Easter Season the , Ohio, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 11:07:08 (ZULU) 

I am limited to 100 yard range. I would like to try some longer ranges so i was thinking shrink the bull. Does anyone have the dimensions for 500 and 1000 yard target size to simulate them at 100 yrds or a url where they can be found to print out?

I saw a tv program that showed a computer program that backtracks a bullets path to origin. This could be nasty for snipers in there hide.
How are the snipers combating this?

The Army sniper field manual is at this url http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/23-10/toc.htm
sorry i dont know how to make this a link.

What pricing is being found on the "Death from Afar" books and also the White Feather book? I paid 60 each for vol 1&3 of Death from Afar and saw white feather for $75. Can i get them for less somewhere?
Volumes 1 & 3 of Death from Afar were superb books. Awesome.
I also picked up a book from Plaster called SOG. Does anyone have a sight dedicated to SOG?

Where is the nearest 1000 meter range to nashville tn.
 
 

Jeff Argo <jet100@bellsouth.net>
nashville, tn, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 13:12:31 (ZULU) 

Al and peteR,
What are we going to do with you two!! I think Pablito is going to have his hands full babysitting you two. This shoot should be worth the price of admission just to watch you two(HA) take care and have a good easter.

Jeff A,
Glad to see you still remember us!! We liked you better as a "Drug Pusher" you had more time to tell us stories, hows "Barb" doing by the way?? I tried one load of 4064 and it was so-so not any better or any worse than anything else I've shot. I just haven't found the magic combo yet for the 100 or 200 yard load with the 142s. they really come into there own at 300 on out. The 140s do the best at 100 and 200 in my gun with the 4895. You won't believe what I did with my "Coyote" load in my heavy barrel. I loaded up the same load that I use in the BDL for hunting and shot it in the heavy barrel(95gr VMAX) and the first 4 shots went into one hole and I mean one hole!!! there wasn't any oblong or the hole getting bigger I thought the bullet was coming apart or something so I cranked it down two click and the 5th round went into another neat hole about 2" lower I about S..t!! and I dont have a clue as to what the seating deapth was!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 13:19:49 (ZULU) 

Jeff Argo:
When I was in the Marine Reserve unit in Nashville, we had to go either to Ft. Cambell or to Tullahoma for rifle qualification, but we didn't even fire the normal 500 yard KD course, we used the B-mod course, which is at 200 and 300 yards. Sometimes we'd go all the way to LeJeune, so we could do it right. However, when I was in the Johnson City unit before that, we'd sometimes go to Oak Ridge; they do have a thousand-yard range there; of course, it's essentially a drive to Knoxville from Nashville for you... not a really bad drive, but not short, either (approx 3hrs). It's the Oak Ridge Sportman's Club (Association?); if you don't think that it's too far, I'll dig out a phone number for you. I'll ask around, see if I can't find out about one in that area for you that'd be closer.
 

Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:25:48 (ZULU) 

You are cordially invited to my shop to finish lapping these gosh darn (other verbs could not be used) rings. Will provide the beer. Will give you the first condition which was the worst so far.

The first weapon is a Sendero 270, Dual Dovetails, Leupold 3.5-10-50 (this is a hunting rig, don't go ballistic on the dovetails!)
First, installed the bases with my usual heavy handed method, (wish I had a torque value for base to Rem receiver screws) using the Brownell Scope Alignment Tool. Windage alignment was perfect, elevation alignment was bad, both points of the tool were pointed DOWN about a 64th from the horizontal. Shimming will not work because both points were down. If I shim, the shim would only be at the front of the rear base and rear of the front base, eliminating 100% contact with the receiver. Next I started lapping with the Brownell Lapping Tool. After forever, at least 30 minutes, I still only had 50 % contact area on the on the bottom rings with mostof the metal removal being on the front of the front ring and back of the back ring, as would be expected from the elevation alignment problem. Another 15 minutes and I gave up. Got worried about removing too much and not being able to properly tighten the ring screws. Ended up with about 65% contact and mounted the scope. ANY COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next was a set of Mark 4 super highs on a Colt Flat Top. Checked the alignment and it was out on windage and elevation. No way to adjust alignment so I started lapping. And I lapped and lapped and gave up at about the same point as above. ANY COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF ANYONE OUT THERE CAN GIVE ME THE TORQUE VALUES FOR LEUPOLD BASE AND RING SCREWS I WILL BUY YOU A FIFTH OF YOUR FAVORITE BOURBON AT CARLOS II, IF I CAN'T MAKE IT UP THERE I'LL HAVE IT SENT UP THERE.

Comming to the end of this miserable day I decided to pull the scope off my Model 7 and lap those rings. It has an STD one piece base and rings. S**t!!!!!!!!! No more to be said.

What the heck goes on here. This is just like everything else I try to perfect. There's no telling how many scopes I've installed without these fancy tools and lapping. Never new I could have these problems. Now that I know, it's driving me crazy. Is there a happy medium here?????

Now for some reviews:

The Brownell Scope Alignment Tool and the Lapping Tool work great. The Vertical Reticle Instrument works great too. If you think your scope reticles are vertical with the barrel, WRONG, try the instrument.
The rings on the New Ruger 10/22 Magnum suck. It took two layer of masking tape to tighten the scope. Am getting ready to send them back to Bill Ruger. They definetly do not need 4 screws per ring.

Headed back the bench for more lapping. Forearms feel like PoP EyE the Sailer Man.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:45:34 (ZULU) 

Mr Bullet Pat: I already bought the Pampers for Pablito to put on peteR. He'll probably go down screaming and we may need you to hold him down too, remember, I'm gonna treat him like baby treats a diaper. You hear that peteR!!! Chow Chow Chow!!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Foggy Easter morn, taking care of loose ends in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:50:54 (ZULU) 

Check at your local gun shop or Wal-mart sporting goods and ask the fellas where you can go. I'm sure that there's a place near you to go but it's not going to be listed as a "shooting range."

Now, I see that Rock, who's right around my home town, has jumped in and mentioned Oak Ridge. It just doesn't much better than Oak Ridge.
This was just a rock throw (sorry Les) from where my folks are and I grew up on that range.
Once I took my date there after it closed for the night. I sweet-talked her into going and I had a key. We went out on the...........well, it's still a good place to shoot 1000 yards.

If you're still having problems finding a place to shoot locally, drop me a line and I'll see what I can hook up for you.

Happy Easter all and remember, it ain't about no stinking Easter bunny!
 
 
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Tennessee hill-billy stuck in Yankeeville, in IL., USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 15:30:40 (ZULU) 

Looks like I'm going to have to report you to S.P.E.C. ( Society for the Prevention of Extinction fo Coyotes ). Apparently, YOU are the one responsible for the malodorus steamey piles of coyote splatter that's being reported on the upswing.

Tried two loads imr4064 in 260 with 142s. Not very impressive. However, 43.5gr in 308 with 175 MKs does nicely (thanks Mike).

But, yesterday was good because I got to shoot my rifles, and fondle a newly built .50 cal tactical piece. My friend, George Lainhart, got his newly done up .50 back from K&P. Beautiful. I genuflected(?); dropped to both knees, faced the east; and proceeded to start intensive begging for a chance to please shoot this magnif. weapon. He's gonna let me shoot it..just to shut my a** up if nothing else.

Barb's doing fine these days. She's airing out on the clothesline. covered with pine pollen...she likes that..especially in combo with a nice shot of Nitrous.

Pablito:

Glad for the Varget comment. It's working well for me in 308 as well as 260..

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 16:26:59 (ZULU) 

Jeff A...
Al's right, you don't want to have lunch after the shot, get the puck outta' there. Even without computers, the opposition will throw something mean at you, whether it's mortar, or in LE, packs of very bad dogs.

Al O...
I was a single dad from when my son was 6 months old, so I don't do "pampers" anymore, but I will bring a rolled up newspaper for you bad puppys, if you don't play nice, and share your toys!!!
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 16:54:19 (ZULU) 

Steve <KPRP42@MSN.COM>
Norfolk, VA, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 23:32:12 (ZULU) 

Happy Easter
Shadow <timdel@open.org>
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 23:48:19 (ZULU) 

Thanks,

matt
matt meservey <fj40@enol.com>
Orem, ut, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 05:57:46 (ZULU) 

TJ,
If the bolt is closed and the firing pin is in the forward position a "very" small amount of movement is normal.

What you are seeing is "gap space". Headspace can be within limits, but there can still be too much gap between the barrel and bolt. Most accuracy gunsmiths like to have about .005" inch of clearance between both the bolt nose and barrel, and the lugs and barrel. This will allow a small amount of "matter" (bristle, powder granule, etc.) to be in this area and still have a the bolt close. And also offer a little room for thermal expansion. Just what tactical gunsmiths fit the bolt/barrel interface to I don't know. If someone would measure a couple of stock Remingtons this would be a good safe figure to go by.

If excess gap exists, then too much of the of the case wall will be unsupported. If you really have a measured .062" movement, then that sounds like too much to me. If Bill W. or "Scott" or others will offer their opinions, it will help clear matters up.

One method to check the clearance is to use Plastigage ™ which should be available at automotive shops. It consists of a string-like deformable wax. A small piece is put on the bolt nose and the bolt is closed and then opened. The width of the deformed plastic gauge is now compared to an index on the wrapper. Very accurate and plenty good for our purposes.

Keep us posted on how this plays out.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 10:05:15 (ZULU) 

No offence taken. The fact is, I just have no idea what torque settings might be best for your Choate stock. Nor do I really know whether the type of bedding would change the optimum torque setting, though I suspect it would. If I were you, I'd just take my torque wrench with me to the range and set both to 25 to start, then see what happens when you up them a bit. Just don't go too high. You probably will not need any setting that requires real muscle to loosen with a standard hex wrench. 50 is probably too high. 25-40 is probably the best range.

This weekend I shot the 10FP w/ 35 inch/lbs and managed a 1" group at 200 yards with an untuned load. (I suspect a fluke, but what the hell, my worst group of the day was only about 2.5" at 200 yards, and that was in a high, switching wind and some rain. Judging by the groups at 100 & 200 yards (.75-1.5 @ 100 & 1-2.5 @ 200), I'd say this rifle is capable of .75MOA on a good day with tuned ammo, maybe better with luck.)

Jeff Argo:

Contact Norm Chandler Jr (M40shooter@aol.com). Ask for an Iron Brigade armory price list. The books you refer to range from $50-60 each, depending on whether you are a "book owner" or not. He charged me $50.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls., MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 12:50:17 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the favorable comments buddy!

I probably will need some help to keep from soiling myself at "The Match"

but,

It will be from LMAO watching you try to spot my bullet trace from a modified Deliverance position over a special log at Storm Mountain.
 

SARGE,

How goes the battle with the handloads?
 

TJ,
Check to see if the front trigger guard screw is cranked down too tight, or maybe is sticking up into the receiver a little bit

Chao for now!

peteR
 

Wilde-Thang,
A nice post on triggers with some most excellant points being made.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:01:16 (ZULU) 

Torf,
Thanks for the info on the 6.5-08 improved. I couldn't recall just what it was that you had said. I seem to have the best luck so far with the slightly faster powders in my 260, Varget and IMR4895, the one slower powder that has worked well has been Winchester MRP but it is a "Compressed" load. I have just traded for some 165VV so I will try it out too. It seems as though I run out of case capacity with the slower powders. I also have found that with the 142s and the 140 AMX it seems as though these bullets like some "Jump" to the rifeling where as the 140 seems to do the best right at the lands. I reall haven't tried to down load to the slower speeds yet because I want to stay in the 2700 to 2750 range for the long range work. So far Varget is doing that with the 142s but the accuracy is better from 300 yards on out and is only marginal at 100(.6s and .7s) Where as the 140s with 4895 goes into the .4s all day long at 100 but opens up down range. Any ideas??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:31:56 (ZULU) 

Maybe the bullets are not completely stabilized @ 100 yards? I think current theory with a lot of the "stretch" projectiles is that they don't go to sleep until 250-300 yards.

I think that I've seen it with some .308 VLD types but as I'm limited to 200 yds for the most part, dunno for sure.

Mr Wylde or JR @ H-S Precision, any thoughts on this subject?

chao!
peter <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:57:19 (ZULU) 

If you are making reference to fore and aft movement, you may need some assistance. Not that you have an unsafe rifle, but that you might have peace of mind.

The bolt does need a bit of "living room", but certainly not the 1/16" that you mention. The .005" that Ron N. stated would be a minimum to clear all the garbage that collects in the lock-up area, but many rifles live with a lot more than that.

All this is assuming that the clearance stated was with the bolt in the locked position. Hard to believe, but possible.

Unless you have reasons to do otherwise, I would contact the maker.
If they are anything like me, I'm sure they would want to be the first to know of any problems.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Green-side-up, IL, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 14:08:38 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 14:35:37 (ZULU) 

Slings are coming along and should be caught up next week if I dont sew my hand to the table. Rod you should have a bow full by Mondsay or Tuesday next week. Scott I hope yours will be there by the end of next week. Hugo about the same time as Scott. Now in my spare time I am going to produce some for AR's. One thing about the slings, because evrything is finished when you get it, if you don't fall in the average to large size we will need to know so the front strap does not have a bunch of excess material left over after you adjust it for shooting. If you are shorter than average or that freak accident claimed half your arem let me know and I will make the straps to your length. You will still ge through Rod, Scott or TRGT for the sling I just will make it just right for you. I found this out when Darren showed up the other day. Since he has several Black Belts I wont call him short but his arms are not the usual length, compared to the first generation upright guys like me.

Al, thanks for the info on the binoculars. I have 7x50's but my doctor says not to carry anything over a ton and half in the woods.

Pabalito, very good post on triggers. I keep a diagram around because I can't remember what screw is what. A word of warning for the trigger adjusters. When I went to Remington Armorer School, a waste fo time, I was told the warranty is no good if you touch your trigger. Plus this leaves you open for liability if you have an A.D. Schillan makes an adjustable trigger for about $70.00 that puts the liability on them. Just a thought.

Old Dog, get your Butt to the Match so I can buy you a beer. Heck I might even let you look at my Stryder Knife, since you have to wait six months for one. Best knives ever. I might even do a review on it if you guys are interrested.

Well time to shut up. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 15:32:16 (ZULU) 

I'm not sure why you would want to zero @ 200 yards with tapered bases. Maybe all you mean is that you want the ability to adjust the crosshairs to the same point of impact/point of aim @ 200 yards, while you rifle is actualy zerod out at 600 or something?

Point being: The reason for using tapered bases is so that you will be able to get enough down elevation on the reticule to follow a dropping round at long distance (say 1000 yards). The reason being that many/most scopes won't adjust far enough to give you that kind of adjustment range. You probably know this. You probably also realize that unless you have need to shoot at say, 800+ yards, you don't need to install tapered shims, or whatever.

Being that you are using them, and may be shooting at longer ranges, don't zero your rifle at 200 yards. Zero it at about 500, then just adjust up or down from your 500 yard zero setting, or whatever, for the other ranges. (By zero, I mean the feature of many target scopes where you can zero the rifle at some range, then set up the knobs on the scope so that they actualy read zero on the dials).

You probably know this, but in case you don't, I offer the info.

Interesting note:
Remember the big back and forth on this site a few weeks ago regarding reverse imaging, or whatever? Well exact point-of-aim/poin-of-impact advocates aside, I saw a chart recently from the Vietnam era that indicated that it was A Marine technique to zero the rifle at 500 yards, then when shooting a man (the chest was the recomended target, not the head) aim at the belt area for 100, just below the groin for 200 and 300, the belt again for 400, the chest for 500 and just above the head for 600. It was known by some colorful euphemism like "over the head and below the balls," or something like that. The point is (going back to the previous discussion, not Dan's zeroing question) that the MC advocated holdoff as a method for good marksman, rather than constantly clicking your scope around for exact point of aim. The chart I saw was accompanied by a few others that showed the hold-offs for other situations.

Granted, this does little toward successful target shooting, and in a (mostly police) situation where a clean head shot is required, it may not work for you, but in military sniping where you just need a good clean shot into center of mass, holdoff was recommended, provided the shooter was skilled enough. Interesting.

Semper Fi,
André
 

André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 15:34:11 (ZULU) 

The previous delved-into-in-depth discussion involved a method where you wouldn't even have to know the range at all, provided the ballistics of your round fall within a useful range. That may be more of what you are looking for, unless you will have the time/ability to get a good guestimate of target range inyour upcoming match.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 16:27:05 (ZULU) 

After a little research i concluded that the UARS stock available for $250 from www.autuagaarms.com is the read deal. HOWEVER it is not the one we've all been hearing so much about. After emailing gunsite directly I found out it is an earlier version. available only for the Rem 700 SA. it also has a three round only blind magazine (the current one holds 4). The Gunsite rep. also told me this stock is not covered by any warranty. Beware if it sound too good it probably is
Geoff P Ovens <sgtgeo@hotmail.com>
Lillington, NC, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 17:38:28 (ZULU) 

This is one direct link to FM 23-10,

This is another link to FM 23-10, but I'm not sure if this URL works.

Andre: I also saw the USMC holdoff chart you mention, it was in a August 1968 issue of Guns & Ammo profiling Marine Snipers in Vietnam. Where did you see your charts?

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 18:19:40 (ZULU) 

André
André
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 18:29:01 (ZULU) 

Seriously, although I know this is not Knife Country, the knife Mike M mentioned is made by Duane Dwyer in Oceanside CA. Relevant here because he graduated from the USMC Scout/Sniper School, and is an avid high power guy. If you want an outstanding knife, his number is 760-967-6445.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 19:14:32 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 21:26:42 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 22:33:17 (ZULU) 

But, and this is a BIG BUT, the MK4-M3 has roughly 30-35 moa of optically built in taper... it is the ONLY Leupold scope made this way!... When set up on a rifle with standard bases, you will have about 10-15ish moa of down, and 60-65ish moa of up... after you zero the rifle at the minimum range, without tapered bases!!
The scope was designed with this large optical offset so that it could be used to 1000 yds "out of the box" without needing special bases, and be able to do it in less than one turn of the dial!
If you add tapered bases, you won't able to shoot at close ranges unless there is enough "added tooling error" in the receiver, bases, and rings... all adding in your favor, and that's very unlikely.
This is not a target scope, but a tactical scope designed for one purpose... and doesn't follow "common sense".
To be able to shoot from 50 to 1000+ yds/mtrs the VX-III M3-LR must use tapered bases, The VX-III M1-LR will benifit from tapered bases, and the MK4-M3 must use standard bases.
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 22:36:56 (ZULU) 

Scott:

Just received the shirts and hats today, excellent my friend. Hey, thanks a million, and I'll see if I can't get ya a few more orders.

Hey, just got back from the flatlands, and took a few peeks thru the Bushnell 20x50 x 50mm spotting scope that Santa got for the old man. Was keepin' an eye on some Sandhill Cranes that stopped by one of the old dams. I think for the price it is a damned fine piece of glass. It will work great for the 300yd range anyway.

Oh, I see I have a request for info from the PeteR dude:

"Coning" or gyroscopic precession( for all youse rocket scientists) , is usually more prevalent with the long, slender bullets (VLD's). This is because the longer bullets have a longer distance between center of mass(c of gravity) and center of pressure. This 'coning' usually occurs when the bullet escapes the muzzle, by imperfections in the bullet caused by the rifling. Usually, with regular bullets, the coning motion damps out (goes to sleep) within 100 yds or so. But this distance would be relative to the shape of the bullet, so YES, I would say you would have to increase the yardage on the longer bullets to get desired stabilization.

I've got more on this stuff, but e-mail would be better than to bore the crowd with such voodoo. I have never seen a bullet cone or nod or the distance at which it goes to sleep. I just read and go from there. Maybe someone such as the Gooch could lend some info as maybe he has tracked a bullet's flight path and has seen the differences between the different bullet styles.

Pat:

What's the length of your 260 bbl?? You know I want to pick up an H-S take down this year, and the first bbl will be the 260. You know, I wonder if you could have a few barrels made in the same caliber, but different twists for the bullet suited for the deed? Then I could make a 9.5" or 10" twist for the 120's and another bbl for the 140-142's in a faster twist. Interesting.

Catch ya later
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 23:31:37 (ZULU) 

Personally, I was unaware that the MK4-M3 had a built in optical taper (I use a vari-x II 6-18 Target myself). Kind of a cool feature.

My point was simply that unless one has a need to shoot @ 800+ yards, why bother with any tapers? If one IS shooting at long range, it makes the most sense (to me anyway) to have the scope settings "zerod" at a longer range, say 400 yards (for simplicity's sake, each 1/4 MOA click would be 1 inch at zero for that distance, and easy to remember). To me, it makes the most sense to put the scope's "zero" (again assuming that your scope allows you to reset the actual dials to zero at any point), at some midpoint, or even farpoint, of your average shooting distance, rather than 100 or 200 yards. If I were shooting from 100-800 yards, I would zero the rifle at about 500, reset the scope settings for zero at that zero, then just go to different ranges from there, either through holdoff, or adjusting the scope from the zero (which is 500 yards). The advantage to this is that your scope's zero reference point is at or near your most common shooting distance. It seems to me that it would be much simpler to add, say, five clicks up to a 500 yard zero, than 25 clicks to a 100 yard zero. Plus your zero is at a more conveniant place. If you lose count moving from 500 to 800 yards, it's much quicker to reset to a 500 yard zero, that start over from the settings of a 100 yard zero.

It's all just personal preference, but that's what makes sense to me.

I guess the taper thing and the zeroing thing are really two different subjects.

Semper Fi,
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls., MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 23:37:39 (ZULU) 

Many thanks for the fast key to the "FM" Guys if ya aint got it down load it or save as a "favorite" MOST EXCELLANT!
 

JR,

Knew that you could help us out with this facet of shooting and in easy to read prose too! Again MOST EXCELLANT!
 

Knives,
I just was just drawing a comparison (no pun intended), and anyone that says a good knife or two isn't a part of a field kit had better read the archieves......

Last question for the night (well maybe)
What is the "average" engagement distance for a military sniper 1980-1999?
MOUT?
or otherwise (excluding the desert)?

Chao!
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:15:57 (ZULU) 

thanks folks.

mikey
mikey <panacea@ntplx.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:24:55 (ZULU) 

Some of the scopes that are used for tactical shooting have special features that aid in one type of shooting, and give up other features in exchange, and old knowledge does not apply.
Pablito
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:30:55 (ZULU) 

Bushmaster is still making complete weapons on a timely scale but are way behind on lowers. Dont know about other brands.
Respectfully
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:44:14 (ZULU) 

I've been window-shopping for Remington 700VS lately, 'til my budget'll let me get one, or I can (hopefully) find a used one (I'm still waiting for donations for my experimentation!) ;-)

The regular counter guy at a local retail gun shop quoted $735, but when I was talking with one of my higher-up friends who work there, he said they could sell it at $640. Wally-World says they go for $639, and a discount sports shop says $641. SO, I figure the local places are comfortable right at $640, +/- $1. A distributor told me that the wholesale price for them was $495, so a shop willing to take a smaller cut should be able to get it to you for less that $640... $619 sounds very reasonable.

$1349? I don't see how at all... unless either they were quoting something else (I don't know what a PSS goes for, anyone else?), were quoting for two of 'em, OR MAYBE, (just a GUESS) since there won't be any more right-handed ones, they've jacked up the price of the ones that they have in stock. Since I need a left-handed one, I don't have to run out and get one tomorrow, but if you want a dextral one, better get it soon, if you want it new.

Hope that helps.

L8R,
Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
TN, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 03:43:32 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 04:15:09 (ZULU) 

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 04:18:23 (ZULU) 

DID YOU CALL ME AL?????????????????????????

I'll let is slide this time, seeing as you are temporarily disabled.
Hope everything works and ya get healed bud.
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 12:07:46 (ZULU) 

Hi All!
Me and my buddy Marco will be attending basic sniper course at SMTC, starting June 7th. We are looking for a ride from Dulles Airport, Washington DC to SMTC (and back the other weekend of course!).
Is there anyone who can take us there? There's some good Dutch beer involved in this deal!!!!! (Providing we can get it though customs.... hee, hee!)

Hope you can help us out!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 13:05:51 (ZULU) 

I have been requested to assist a Police Department in lobbying for the approval of the AR-15/ M-16 (semi-auto only) as a issue patrol rifle.

I am looking for any information on departments that have approved this rifle/ carbine for use. Specifically I need information on how you went about convincing the upper management that may not have looked favorable such an item.

I have the information from Hornady on the TAP Ammunition and the penetration tests. This is to be incorporated into the report.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Bruce G. Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce G. Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jax, FL, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 13:34:04 (ZULU) 

Well now I think you lost me. Didn't you say that that Leopold scope has a built in taper? If so, why do you need tapered mounts for it? (assuming you aren't trying to "undo" the tapering.)

The problem with that scope is that it is NOT adjustable enough in one simple movement WITH MARKED INTERMEDIATE STEPS of less than 1MOA. BDC's are great, provided your round has matching ballistics. Fact is, that's unlikely unless you shoot the round the scope was designed for, through the rifle that it was designed for. I'd rather have a scope that is designed for proper target shooting, which in the end, is all sniping is about: hitting what is aimed at accuratly.

Furthermore, it's my understanding that this scope has 1MOA clicks. That's a pretty gross adjustment at longer ranges, and hardly condusive to sniper accuracy. If you spend the bucks for a rifle capable of 2-3" groups at 500 yards, why would you want a scope that is only adjustable in 5" increments at that distance? Unless your argument is that snipers don't need more than a basic gross accuracy, rather than the precision accuracy of a varmit hunter or target shooter? In which case, I'm not sure how many would agree with you. Gross accuracy may be fine in some military situations, but I doubt that a Police sniper can afford anything less than the best accuracy possible.

You might be interested to know that the Chandlers have dimissed this scope as a proper sniping scope due to this very feature (DFA Vol. III), ( and the fact that it is not made of steel) so I'm not the only one who thinks EVERY proper sniping scope should be fully target adjustable in fine increments. Leopold makes great hunting and target scopes. Some are desguised as "Tactical" scopes, and may be useful as such in many ways, but I think the point could be made that a true up-to-date (unfortunately the Unertles are not) tactical sniper scope does not seem to exist, according to some. Just stop gaps.

A properly set up target scope with only two clear, precise, adjustments for windage and elev. should not be too difficult for anyone who is smart enough to be a sniper to use. And it would seem to me that it would be far simpler in the field to just add, say, 7.5 minutes of windage on one dial (Minutes are numbered of my scope), than to have to turn one gross adjustment dial, then do a 1 MOA "fine tune" on it (without markings, and still .5 MOA off) for every yardage. (remember the KISS principle?) Can I assume that that Leupold BDC is somehow calibrated for a given round, like a .308? It must be in order to work. Well what happens if you want to use that scope on a rifle that shoots a round that the BDC is not calibrated for?

No personal offence intended Pablito, but I think it's time some of the "professionals" realize that outside of fieldcraft, sniping is simply a genre of shooting. The same techniques which can be used to win a highpower match, can be applied to help a sniper's technique. A sniper still needs to have a good scope that he can use properly and adjust for good point-of-aim/point-of-impact. And he still needs to be able to hit what is aimed at. The best scope in the world won't help that without the shooter being a good target shot to begin with.

Just look at the difference that MUST exist between Police and Military sniping. They are two different forms of shooting. A Police officer will tend to have to make precise immobilizing (read: head) shots over relatively short distances (I believe that I've seen the average given as about 60 yards), normally in Urban terrain. Tell me that a scope with a BDC dial will help him at that range? Anything less than 300 yards seems like somewhat of a wasted use of BDC and dept money (for example you zero at 200 yards, do about 3 min up for 300, and about 3min down for 100, or whatever you work out to be true).

Whereas a military sniper will tend to make longer distance shots over varied terrain. In Vietnam the average was along the lines of 600 yards. In Beirut the treeline from the embassey was about 500 yards. In Mogadishu shots were made to nearly a thousand (or maybe more). In Desert Storm, the Barret 50 cal was use for shots over a mile. A BDC might be of more help in this situation, but I would think full adjustability and ruggedness would be more important.

In any case, I think the argument can be made that you can't generalize sniping and say that every sniper has PARTICULAR scope needs that don't conform to what I might use for target shooting, or that any one scope, "Tactical" scope, or not, conforms to what snipers need, since snipers don't really conform to any particular model themselves. Again no offence, but that Leupold scope just sounds crippled to me. Maybe if I used one I would think differently, but it just seems like a combination of guesswork and assumptions that makes that scope accurate.

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 13:36:39 (ZULU) 

Yes, this is SNIPER country, and the point is not paper punching, but a sizable percentage of snipers (if not a majority) are those in Law Enforcement. Statistically, they would have little use for a long range tactical scope. A good target style scope would be best. The military HAS their scopes, so people who are buying tactical scopes, while they might be active military, are NOT buying them for their military rifles.

Another portion of shooters at this website are just target shooters, former military snipers, or sniper wannabees. In their case a good target scope might still be best, if for no other reason than versatility.

So it really comes down to the fact that a relatively small number of particular shooters (the Military snipers) have any use for the so-called tactical scopes, and in my opinion, most others would be better served be a good target scope. Some might say that the military would also be better served by a more versitile scope that is not so dated and limited.

I can speak for no one but myself, but when I shoot, I want to know that I will not be limited in any reasonable way from achieving utmost accuracy at any range, especially short ones. If I were a LE sniper, who worked in a short range of 50-200yards, I would ignore all this tactical scope crap and spend less money on a better target scope that would give me the ability to separate the hippocampus from the spinal cord at 200 yards, should that be my need, not simply place a shot somewhere in a 2-3" area. Especially if this limitation is not caused by the rifle or the shooter, but by a scope that will not fine adjust. I KNOW that I can shoot much better than a 1 MOA scope would allow, most good shooters should be able to. Why spend $2000 on a .25 MOA rifle, then shoot with a 1 MOA scope? Just because the USMC with its very limited budget and slight regard for the black art of sniping does it?

Reminds me of the deffinition of close enough for government work that we used to throw around when I was active: Measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk, cut with an axe.

Just my opinion.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 15:00:24 (ZULU) 

As always,
André
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 16:19:01 (ZULU) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 16:36:54 (ZULU) 

No!... I said... "To be able to shoot from 50 to 1000+ yds/mtrs the VX-III M3-LR must use tapered bases, The VX-III M1-LR will benefit from tapered bases, and the MK4-M3 MUST USE STANDARD BASES"... and the scope under discussion is the MK4-M3

Whether you think 1 moa adjustments are valid or not, or whether you think the MK4-M3 is worth the money, is strictly a matter of opinion, and not worth the time... its like arguing Blonds vs Brunettes... both have their points.

I use both one turn BDC Leupold tactical scopes, and 1/4 moa B&L tactical scopes... they are both very fine, and both do the job they were designed for.

As to a debate, this is best left to those that have used both with enough time on each, to offer practical advice, as opposed to theoretical opinions. One is not better than the other (in spite of what Chandler says)... they both have there place.
Being the owner of 3 B&L 10x tacs, and 5 Unertls, I would gladly part with some more green for a MK-M3, or VX-III M3-LR... they do different jobs.
To argue the merits, or disadvantages, of a piece of equipment, based on catalogue data, or secondhand gossip, does this site a disservice.

When a reader asks for advice on a particular piece of equipment, they may be contemplating the spending a long piece of green, and they need (and deserve) opinions from those that know the item, rather than guesses, or theoretical debate, based on nada.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 16:53:11 (ZULU) 

I think the apples/orange comment applies. Like you said, in LE total precision is required. In the grit and shit of a military environment, you will not find to many snipers trying for 800 yard head shots when bodies are visible. A kills is a kill is a kill. For them, having a one rotation turret helps keep their head out of their asses when the pucker factor goes up. Sure, they might not hit a target exactly at point of aim at 900 meters, but under the conditions they are shooting, I doubt they care. For a cop, well now this is a totally different matter. He needs that total precision AND he seldom has to worry about two or three revolutions on the dial. In this environment, at ¼ moa dial makes a lot of sense.

On zeroing: If you have the facilities to zero at 400 or 500 yards, by all means, do so. But you would still want to set the turret to mark "that zero" for the indicated range of 400 or 500 yards -- which ever you used. You’d then have to verify that the turrets tracked down and up to the other indicated ranges on your BDC. The Brits did this in WWII as an assurance that the zero was ON at the ranges they were most likely to engage a target at. A Brit sniper knew his 400 yard zero was bang on. If he had to dial down, the thing might not track exactly but a hit could be expected since the range was shorter and he had a larger margin for error.

I may have misunderstood you when you mentioned zeroing at 500 and setting the turret to read "0". If that is what you meant I would have respectfully and with good nature, disagree with you. It can certainly work, but seems to introduce a little confusion. Setting "0" on a ¼ moa scope to equal 100 yards at least gives you a bottom end point. A closed gate or block of sorts. Zeros (reading "0") set specifically for a higher range, with the expectation of dialing away from it, create the ready hassle of worrying about finding it again in less than ideal conditions. Why bother? I would suggest zeroing the dial for 100 and plainly marking the dial for your verified 500 yard zero. You have to shoot the dope anyway to verify it, so you KNOW where that 500 zero really is and record it. If you need to use holds due to a target rich environment, you can always put on the preferred or averaged dope and hold from there.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:06:37 (ZULU) 

When you refer to the "plastic military grip" I am unsure what you mean. The buttstock or the hand grip? Big difference. If you mean the new standard M4 hand grip, yes! It is worth it. Try to fire a carbine with the old thin round grip until the rifle is hot. Now install the M4 grip. MAJOR difference! One; the new grip fills you hand much, MUCH more comfortably. Two; it is double heat shielded. You never feel much heat. The old grip let a lot of heat leach through. The oval M4 grip is just a far better design than those cheap and crappy carbine grips that preceded it.

Now if by "plastic military grip" you mean the non-collapsing buttstock, No. It is not worth it. You are paying for a look. Not a function. Get an old M16A1 buttstock. It is short and works well in tight environments when mounted on a carbine. It is also dirt cheap. I got one for $2.00 one time at a show. Nobody wants them because they are too short for a full sized rifle. But they work well on a carbine. Granted, a pre-ban collapsible stock is better still, but they ain’t legal no’ mo’.

Ross, You will love the Bushmaster. I would recommend the Armalite too if it was not for that hoaky muzzle break. Sorry Armalite! I LOVE your stuff but will not have one of those things on my AR barrel. You can not get to the muzzle to maintain it, and it creates way to much "side" noise and dust. It is a darn .223 for heavens sake, you do not need a muzzle break at all! Not even on the carbine.

Ross, if you want a 20" for accuracy, avoid chrome bores. Re: the article I wrote.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:28:56 (ZULU) 

"Leupold makes great hunting and target scopes. Some are disguised as "Tactical" scopes, and may be useful as such in many ways, but I think the point could be made that a true up-to-date (unfortunately the Unertls are not) tactical sniper scope does not seem to exist, according to some. Just stop gaps. "

… somehow looses validity, in light of the fact that… the new VX-II 3.5x10 M3-LR, which has one turn BDC's was designed to meet army specs, to the letter… is one of their top selling scopes, and is the new official army sniper scope, and is made of Aluminum, and the army buys 85% of all made… what is it that they know???

No one ever said that the same scope is suitable for military as for LE… for LE, the average hunting rifle would do well. As another said, with 1 moa clicks you aren't more than ½ moa out… that's 5" at a 1000 yds, and at that range, without the benefit of "sighters", that 5" is the least of your worrys… and it's no problem to "split a click" for a 2.5" error at 1000yds. Wind, temp, and other variables will be a far bigger issue, that these "limits".

If you've ever tried to adjust the ¼ moa turrets on a MK4-M1 in poor or overcast light, you know the real meaning of frustration… even at a bench rest, in good light… it's almost impossible to know how many of those 10 turns you've made… it's easier to read a machinist's micrometer in the dark. And whether you are a military shooter, or shoot tactical matches, not every shooter has time to play with ¼ moa clicks… often your target appears, and your spotter says "six seven five, and pull two left. That's not the time to figure how many turns to make, or how many you made before. You want your range "NOW"!

André… it's two different worlds, with two different sets of criteria… don't dismiss one because it doesn't fit your type of shooting. There are enough shooters using expensive, one turn tactical scopes out there… they can't all be wrong… and the Army, and Marines can't be that stupid. They do this stuff for a living (literally). There are many military shooters that are accomplished 1000 yd competitors at Perry, and Wimbleton, and they know of the existence of target style scopes. I would think if they thought they were better, they might use them??? Don't cha think?

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:36:19 (ZULU) 

Well then we are probably simply losing sight of the original questions, which was:

"I am wondering if the Leupold Mk 4 M-3 will zero at 200 meters with one of the tapered bases available. "

Now, unless I have been thouroughly confused, the scope referred to is one of the tactical scopes with the built in optical taper. Is that correct? Unfortunately Pablito, my confusion probably stems from your reference to built in taper, in regards to a question involving adding tapered bases to that scope. If I misunderstood you there, I apologize, but you can probably see the source of the problem.

Another argument is my point, and I think it's entirely valid, that one should zero a scope at or near the range that one will shoot most of the time (if only for conveniance sake). Perhaps this is easier with a tactical scope equiped with a BDC, or perhaps not, it really doesn't matter. As I said previously, if I were shooting at a long range often enough to justify the purchase of a long range scope, I certainly wouldn't be zeroing that scope at 100 or 200 yards. But that's just me, your mileage may vary.

That led to the next point of contention:

My point: If one is looking for a scope, then the primary consideration should be "what do I need to use this scope for, and at what ranges?" If one will be shooting tactically at 200-1000 yards, then maybe a different scope is appropriate than one that will be used tactically at <300 yards. The "goal" of the Military sniper at long range, is entirely different than the goal of a Police sniper at 75 yards. I think that that should be obvious, and I think that it is fair to say that the vast majority of Police sniper engagements are at what can be considered close range: <300 yards, or even less than 150 yards. And I think all can agree that a scope with a BDC style of elevation adjustment is fairly pointless at 75 yards. That's not theory.

My point is this, and it has nothing to do with wacky theories, or catalogs, or voodoo, or the Chandler Bos., or whatever else I may be guilty of: It would be a disservice to a Police Sniper to insist that a long range tactical scope is the best tool for the job, given the <300 yard range that he will generally use.

If someone who will shoot at 75-500 yards 95% of the time, and at <150 yards 99% of the time is looking for a scope, a Target scope is the obviously better choice for two reasons:
1). The BDC is fairly useless at such short ranges to be used for the purpose it was designed. This says NOTHING about the quality of the scope, simply that it is not being used properly. It will be a fish out of water.
2). The finer adjustments possible on a target scope (whether they be 1/4 or 1/8 MOA) are far more useful for accurate shooting at short range. Maybe it is correct that 1 MOA is all that is neccessary for a Military sniper at 800 yards, but at 200 yards I think fine adjustments can have their place.

Adding another wrinkle to the argument is that a good tactical scope can run $1000, as opposed to half that for a good target scope. When you are spending the dept's money, this may be an issue.

Maybe there is no need to have 1/4 MOA at 500 yards. A 1 MOA scope will get you to withing about 2.5 inches of POA, while a 1/4 MOA scope will get you to within about 3/4 of an inch. Remembering that errors can be additive, if the rifle is capable of 1 MOA and the scope is capable of 1 MOA, you could find yourself a full 5 inches off at 500 yards (assuming that the gun is being fired with a vice like grip and eagle-eye aim), vs an error of a little over three inches at for a 1/4 MOA scope on a 1 MOA rifle. Maybe that kind of accuracy is not needed most of the time. I could see that. Maybe, one could argue, that kind of accuracy is not even needed by a Police sniper at 100 yards. But that still doesn't answer the question of why all snipers should be using tactical scopes (I know you didn't SAY that Pablito, but it certainly seems implied sometimes at this site among some).

When I shoot at 200 yards, I like to think that the only thing keeping me from hitting exactly where I want to is ME, not my scope. I like full control of my adjustments, not some vague 2 + or - some number of 1 MOA clicks. Maybe at 800 yards, the conveniance would be nice, but at 200?

I don't question the quality of your favored scope, nor do I question the quality of your shooting, or even your belief in your methods, Pablito. All I say is we should be practical when buying a scope, and a tactical scope MAY be impractical for many, even many snipers, if their tactical world does not involve long range shooting.

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:59:37 (ZULU) 

you gotta love this one

Pablito "Works /Tastes Great" Coburn

vs.

Andre "Less Minutes/Filling" Peters

Thanks dudes, I learned from both of you on this little text war and with such restrained diplomacy!

So where does my B&L Tactical fit in?

any takers on the engagement ranges for military snipers from 1980 until todays date. sometimes I ask others wish to know.

Chao
 

peteR <PNGREIF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 18:42:02 (ZULU) 

"After all at 800 yards can you mill close enough to really make that 1" vs 1/4" make a difference?"

No, 'yote bate... you burn 'em with your laser!
 

Pablito
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 19:07:32 (ZULU) 

I case it wasn't noticed, many target turrets (I can't speak for all) don't simply spin around past the same zero mark over and over. The turret will move in and out from the body of the scope tube and marks beneith it will indicate WHICH zero one is on at any geven moment.

I won't argue that it's easier to use than a BDC turret (it's not), but it does not, as some contend, leave you in the dark as to how many spins you've made past zero on the dial.

No can of worms there, I'm just pointing this out in case someone hasn't noticed this feature on their scope and it has it.
André
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 19:17:49 (ZULU) 

I will have to defend the variable LR M3 for military type shooting. I would not really recommend it for LE since there are equally good alternatives. For a year now I have used this scope and it does what I tell it pretty well. If I aim center mass at 600 yards and have it dialed to the proper dope, it HITs center mass at 600. Not way above, not way below. Moving out to 800 and it is the same story. Under 10x observation I can not tell that it is hitting far off my aim point. What's not to like?

Not surprisingly, at 100 yards I am less than a 1/4 inch (in any direction) off my center hold. I can live with that! It is ideal for LE? Hell, I don't know, but I would use it in a pinch. Given the choice, no I would not. I’d go ¼ moa but NOT 1/8TH!!!! Neither would I use a fixed 10x as some police have done. You limit yourself with a fixed scope in any power. But I am digressing.

Andre’s question was "Why should LE use a tactical scope at all?"

They needn't. Qualification: Depending on their environment! As long as the scope is capable of repeatable settings and the zero does not wander, they have MANY viable choices. Too many to list! The reason "tactical" scopes have come into favor is that they have easily adjusted turrets and the repeat well. Hunting scopes generally SUCK in this way. First you have to remove the protective caps. Then you got some junky coin slot or barely raised ridge. Working with them blows. You can not even look up and see your settings. You end up just using a hold as your hunting scope can be a pain to dial in. Well, if you are just going to use a hold, why fuss over a 1/8th, 1/4 or 1 moa scope? You ain't using it anyway if it is a hunting scope. Hold from zero and shoot. NOT ideal for LE!!! Too many lawyers and media types to record the foul up.

Now target scopes are a step in the right direction. Better turrets. Good repeatability for the most part. Most LE do not even need anything more fancy than a duplex reticle. At least that is my opinion. I do believe they need at LEAST a duplex. A fine target cross hair is next to useless. Hell, I do not even like them for varmint shooting! Blend in to much. Easy to lose in real terrain. Fine for BR though where you have a black and white target.

Cops certainly do not need a fixed 10x or a 1 moa scope. I do not believe anyone here has asserted otherwise. In truth, if they do not mind the length, a B&L Elite 4000 would work just find as well as about a dozen other "varmint" scopes, BUT I do feel the 1/8 minute clicks are next to useless. They are too fine for fast adjustment and can be easily confused. It takes too many revs just to dial up and keepign track of where you are is twice as bad as on 1/4 moa scopes. The 15 moa turret usually found on a 1/4 minute scope is much easier to work with under 400 yards. It is also precise enough to make an eye shot at 300 yards. Don’t believe that? Come to the Hathcock Match and watch it be done. If your zeros are correct, and you rifle shoots, you can hold minute of eye ball. Seen it too many times to question it. Guys make head shots on steel all the time out to 300 and many go right in the eye. Luck? Fluke? I doubt it. I have seen guys purposefully draw faces with bullets on steel at this range. For fun. Forget 1/8th moa. Leave it to the bench maggots. With winning being decided by a single .000 of an inch they may REALLY need them to win! But you do not.

Wow. And I said I wuz not going to voice a long winded opinion very often on this here roster. I must promise myself this daily and break it twice as often! Sorry guys.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 19:40:16 (ZULU) 

Stefan,
Dulles airport is just across the water from where I work. Email me the dates and times and I'll get you there, no problem.

Jim

Jim Hampshire <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 20:04:20 (ZULU) 

Rod, we're shooting through Wednesday!

Pablito
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 20:38:38 (ZULU) 

Scott brings up exactly my point about eye shots however. At a range that is short enough for an eye shot (50-350 yards or so), you need a scope that is accurate enough to make that zero. With a 1 MOA adjustment, you MIGHT make that shot, but you would be relying more on luck and a happenstance exact zero. At 200 yards, you might hit the wrong eye!

Anyway, I enjoyed all this today, and I hope some real info was passed around as well.

Semper Fi,
 

André
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 20:38:51 (ZULU) 

Maybe next time. I gotta make sure I can put my money where my mouth is first!

Later,
André
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 20:42:30 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 21:00:20 (ZULU) 

It took me 10 minutes to type my post on lapping etc. Let's get on that subject for a short time por favor.

To really scare you, I saw a 1" SCOPE RING REAMER in Brownells also!!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 21:41:40 (ZULU) 

What are you doing on the computer... get back down in the basement and back to lapping rings!

Actually, I'm going to have my Sinclair cut down on a lathe, so it's 30mm with a piece of #600/#1200 wet and dry, cuz I need to cut 50 moa of tilt into pair of MK4 rings, which is about 1/16" down on the front ring... a lot to take down with paste (about 9 years!).

I would pass on the scope ring reamer... you'll still have to lap them in the end.
 

Pablito
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 23:31:25 (ZULU) 

About turning down your Sinclair ring lap tool: Sinclair told me those are hardened steel. Just in case you didn't already know.
Brian
Brian Meyette <brian@turbont.net>
Cornish, NH, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 23:47:59 (ZULU) 

Wideners has it priced about as cheap as I can get the Remington that I usually use. I noted that it is the brass used in White Feather ammo (at least originally, if not still).
 

André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 00:02:08 (ZULU) 

Just waiting for Leupold to make a tactical 4.5x14x40,30mm tube with 1/2min elevation adjustments(one rotation not a requirement), 85+ min of adjustment; to have the advantages of an M3LR but for my 300WM.

Thanks to all those who contributed the 300WM loads data.

Pablito, when is Carlos II?
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Cowtown , CO, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 03:05:19 (ZULU) 

Thanks "Loads"
Larry <remington@TheRamp.net>
Marseilles, Illinois, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 03:06:17 (ZULU) 

The Undude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif., USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 04:32:55 (ZULU) 

The Carlos Hathcock Memorial Match will be held October 2-3, 1999. The proceeds of this match will go to benefit the Hathcock family.

Email ryan@stormmountain.com
http://www.stormmountain.com

Don't ask for mail on it unless you are thinking of going, the postage/expenses come out of the proceeds to the family... Storm Mountain takes NOTHING out of this match, not even their own expenses.
The match is held near Keyser, (which is near Cumberland). The land where they separate the men from the sheep... with a crowbar (ask Al O. He'll explain!).

B.Rogers...
I also use the Buris "Z" rings on a flat top, with one of those Colt/ARMS spacers... set up a Leupold 6x Tac so the 100yd zero is 2 clicks of the bottom. I now have the full 50 moa of elevation. When I remove the scope, I remove it with the spacer as one unit.
I called them to see about 30mm size, and they said "No!" If they came out with them in 30mm. they'd own the market.

Larry...
On bedding the first few inches of the barrel. It's been done by benchrest shooters for years, and works fine. I have done my 40x's this way.

Kodiak...
On rapid engagement of targets for a sniper... we mostly think of the role as creeping through the bad bush to some hide, and waiting for hours/days for one shot (see the entrance page to this site)... but consider that the military is making more training available for "Urban Combat" as a result of our experiences in Somalia, and other similar situations where we are dealing with multiple, untrained, but very dangerous, enemy. Or places like Panama, where we are in an urban environment, and the shooter may by covering an airport, where shoots are long, but it's an "Urban" scenario... or consider places where the sniper is effectively doing perimeter guard duty, behind a berm with 800-1200yds of almost clear field of view, and may need to be able to take many targets under a siege... aka Khe' Sanh

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 07:40:19 (ZULU) 

I'm also putting an AR flattop target system together. Was wondering how I was going to attach the scope. Was thinking about using taller 1" rings to achieve the required cheek-weld. So my question: Is it a better idea to use the ARMS #5 riser to protect the upper receiver(my concern) while being able to use low rings? Will I be able to get a good cheek-weld with this setup? Any info regards the AR flattop would be appreciated. I'm planning on using a VXIII 3.5x10x40 tactical. This is my short to medium range rig.

Out here in the flatlands, the praire dogs avail good training opportunities. Gotta sneak up(sniper low crawl) from down wind and make good wind calls on these small moving training aids. Then at dinner...joking.

Read somewhere on this page that praire dogs afford the ultimate training.

This page is numeral uno.

For those interested, the Serbs have approximately 70 Barret 82A1 50's. Those taking there 24's, be careful and good luck.

Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Cowtown, CO, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 09:45:19 (ZULU) 

I like the Colt riser, as does B.Rogers. I remove it with the scope.

I spent 3 weeks shootin' P'dogs in the Dakota Bad Lands, and went through almost 7,500 rounds in the three weeks. It was the best vacation I ever had..
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 12:27:42 (ZULU) 

Steve,
I understand what your saying and that is a good system you have but when going back and forth and trying to crank in wind and elevation and with a last name of "MURPHY" you know my "Cousin" will visit and I will get screwed up and forget where I am!! Hell I am famous for dialing in the opposit wind when Iam just out practicing by myself!!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 13:24:59 (ZULU) 

Seriously, I would like to see some of the info...if anyone cares to email it.
 

Thanks,

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 14:05:39 (ZULU) 

Old Dog sounds like you are thinking about going to the shoot. Great be the first time a lawyer bought me a drink.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 14:52:13 (ZULU) 

Scott, does SC benefit from purchases made from Amazon that are referred by SC? I actually found the books on another site that was less expensive, but don't want to cost SC any $$$
dustpan <dustpan@handgunner.net>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 15:22:22 (ZULU) 

When you say "Tactical shooting is "NOT" sniping," what exactly do you mean? Are you just refering to a course description in which the "Tactical shooting" course does not include any traditional slow fire sniping-style shooting (more of a combat shooting course) or are you speaking generaly?

Thanks,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 15:27:01 (ZULU) 

Old Dog...
Here's the skinny on the Carlos shoot. Oct 2nd and 3rd. Start time is 8:00 am on the 2nd.

$150 per shooter, teams prefered, you can be matched with other loners if you're alone, or regester as a "Loner"!

Stuff...

A) Rifle (no larger than .338 Lapua)

B) 150 rnd live, and 5 rnds blank.

C) MUST HAVE, in pack!! and carry with you (not leave in the car!)
Rucksack, or Alice pack.
Entrenching tool
Firing support
Compass
Hearing protection
Small pruning shears
Ghillie suit (Wookie, or leaves)
Minimum, 2 qt canteen, or camelback
First-aid kit
Bee sting/alergy kit
Rain kit (pancho/rainsuit)
Food (they aren't feeding you)

D) Misc stuff... Calculator, pencils, clipboard, Mildot-master,etc
what ever you think you need

Though not on the "O-fish-ul" list, you must have some sort of Mil ranging optics... your rifle scope, or spotting scope... NO LASER's.
Spotting scopes will have a maximum, but it has been changed, and I don't know what it is.

There are 9 sections

1- KIM's (Keep in memory) remember details of ten items, and write them down later.
2- Stalk (Gillie creep)
3- Target detection
4- Range estimation
5- 100 yd small group shooting
6- Moving targets
7- Stress course
8- Field fire
9- High/Low Angle fire

You may enter as an individual, or a team, and awards will for 1st and 2nd place team... and 1st and 2nd place individuals.

On the target detection excersize, there was a maximum of 20x in the rules, but because there are scopes that have a minimum of 22x, Rod has said that will be changed... but I don't know what the max for spotting scopes will be (Rod??)

This is brief (I gotta' go make some money), if you have any other questions, drop me an e-mail, or contact Rod at http://www.stormmountain.com

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 15:37:43 (ZULU) 

As a winter project, I made several AR flat top interface prototypes
for mounting scopes, irons, and optical sights.

These units are made of machined aluminum, are the same radius as the front ring on a M70/M700, and allow both scope and irons to be affixed. With this mount, the front scope ring may be solidly moved forward of the upper receiver in excess of two inches. This allows
the use of short/medium rings and any height bases that will fit the spacing of the M70/M700 front ring. This base, while designed for highpower use, allows switching from irons to scope quickly (and easily), but should also lend itself well for tactical use.

The idea was to produce a sturdy mount that would allow a comfort zone (fore and aft/up and down) for any optics or side mounted iron sight. Attachment to the upper receiver is with three vertical jamb screws (into the flat top slots), with small metal pads (in the bottom of the slots)being used to eliminate marring of the upper.

What think guys........is there a place for this mount?

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SUNNY - SE, Illinois, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 15:45:46 (ZULU) 

Jr,
Sorry!!! I forgot to answer you question the other day. My rifle has a 26" barrel with a 1 in 8 twist with the 3 lans and groove.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 16:33:42 (ZULU) 

Also, FYI all, I put a target barrel and stock, Bushnell 3-18x scope, and Harris bipod on my 10/22 and have been shooting it at 200+ yards. Total investment about $300, including rifle. IMHO, shooting a .22 with std match ammo at that range seems to involve practicing many of the same things as shooting my .308 PSS at much longer ranges.

Brian

Brian Meyette <brian@turbont.net>
Cornish, NH, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 16:59:17 (ZULU) 

I'm telling you, I got California plans for October...just be sure to let pretty L know when you are leaving town so we can firm up my visitin' plans:) Btw, is there any need for me to rent a car, or can I just cruise around in that squad car?

Hey, GOT MY SLINGS!!! Gashed my thumb open cutting the tape on the box, but finally got in. Guys, do yourself a favor and buy a couple of these slings...the workmanship is outstanding, the design is cutting edge, and the service top drawer. Seriously, for $50 this is one of the best deals going in serious shooting supplies. Thanks Mike.

Pablito: Thanks for the gist of the Carlos shoot. That memory part has me seriously concerned....:)

To anyone shooting an AR: Over the past several months I have been fortunate enough to get to know Bill Wylde [see his mount post above]. While the internet and some magazines are filled with people claiming to build great AR's, let me tell you, Bill is the real deal. Honest as the day is long, and truly the greatest single source on load development and AR accuracy building that I have ever seen...not to mention a very accomplished shooter. I have seen some of the stuff he has developed for some agencies that I am sure he would prefer remain nameless....awesome is the only word that fits. He will likely chew my tail for bragging on him, but seriously, this is one guy that you owe it to yourself to listen to. Thanks for all your help Bill.

Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 17:35:38 (ZULU) 

don't worry about KIMS game, we'll have to add another day when Al O. finds out about it.......................... ;-)

Lets see :"THE MATCH"Sat & Sun, Monday: Me & Al. O, Tues: Andre & Pablito, Weds: Al.O and KIMS. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Chao

You guys have fun while I'm playing at work OH-TAY???
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 17:57:25 (ZULU) 

For those of you who have kindly been waiting, the Large, XL, and XXXL Sniper Country shirts will be in stock again by the end of the week. Sorry for the short delay in shipment. XXXLs are again available!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 19:00:30 (ZULU) 

Hello,
I have a question to ask.I am trying to get either a Remington 700VS or a Remongton 700P (PSS) and every place I call cannot get them.My question is this.If I were to buy the Remington 700VLS,and change the stock to a composite stock (like the vs,or m-24 style)will my accuracy suffer becuase of this?
Or as long as I have the correct torque,the accuracy would be just as good as the VS?
Please respond,so I can either order it or not order it.

Thanks.

mike
Mike <panacea@ntplx.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 20:13:40 (ZULU) 

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