April 1998
To Rick: My consideration in choosing a scope had very little to
do with rangefinding capabilities. For 1500-yard shots, mil-dot reticles
would be quite difficult to use in determining accurate distances. After
consulting with other extreme long-range shooters, I have decided
that my best affordable method for determining ranges beyond 1,000
yards will be by using a topographical map. My experience with such maps
is, well, rather extensive -- so I don't think there will be any serious
problems in using them to determine distance to a target. Someday when
I'm filthy rich (?), I'll buy one of those NAIT laser rangefinders that
are good out to 2,000 yards. I agree with you, however, in that shots under
1,000 yards can easily and accurately be ranged with a mil-dot scope. My
preference for using the stadia reticle, if I'd had that option within
my budget, is founded in the fact that I like that particular style for
making shots. I really like the LightForce scope's stadia reticle -- in
fact, about the only thing I don't like about the scope is it's size. Reticle
selection is most likely a personal choice based on experience and utility.
Thanks for writing, Rick.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 05:19:01 (EST)
Randy Stoddard <atoz@galstar.com>
Ponca City, Okla USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 06:09:41 (EST)
Keep in mind I'm new to tactical shooting and the Stoner, I've only
had about 500 rounds through the
rifle, and the first match was also the first time I'd tried it
past 100
yards. I'm still trying to nail down the balistics and wind drift
estimations, so I hope
I can improve my consistancy in the future. If anyone else has a
SR25, I'd like to exchange
email on experiences, accessories, loads, etc.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 17:35:31 (EST)
To Russell: Speaking of the NAIT rangefinder, I saw one (supposedly only one outside of military) for $8000. Let me know if you need it that bad.
Nathan & Michael: Welcome to the club. I graduate in May with Criminal Justice degree. It's the paradoxal EXPERIENCE that counts (kind of hard to gain experience when no one hires you because of your lack of experience). I'm currently in the local Sheriff Department Reserve program, and interviewing at the rate of about once a week. Best Wishes on finding employment.
Need to find:
Gibbs M-85 bipod- tore apart Shotgun News looking for one. Any help
locating one would be appreciated.
Tactical Scope- ECONOMICALLY priced tactical scope needed to top
my Savage 110FP. Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks for any help, and continue to support Sniper Country. Great
site with great info.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Kansas USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 00:03:55 (EST)
Try VV N550 powder for 308win.
I use Lapua 170gr LockBase FMJBT, BC.540, on top of 48gr VV N550.
MV in my Rem 40XR is 2750fps.
Accuracy on 100m: .5 MOA.
This is not benchrest accuracy but in real life at long ranges this round outperforms any 168gr/175gr Sierra/2600fps combination.
VV data can be found at www.lapua.com
TorF
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:09:35 (EST)
The NAIT model I'm referring to is much less than $8,000.00, but thanks for thinking of me.
I bought two M-85 bipods at the Indy 1500 gun show a couple of weekends ago, for $60 a piece. They are available from Model 1 ("Imports?"), some outfit in Illinois (up around Chicago, I think). They had an advertisement in Shotgun News or Gun List -- I can't remember which. If you do a Deja News search through the rec.guns and rec.hunting newsgroups, you'll probably find an address and/or phone number for them. Or, if you want, drop me a line to my E-mail address, and I'll get you a phone number. (Maybe someone else reading the Duty Roster has a phone number for Model 1 that they could relay to Matt.)
As for an "economical" tactical scope, I think you first need to tell us your idea of economical. However, you'll probably want to go with the Tasco tactical model (see the Reviews page).
To Sniper Country's Law Enforcement Visitors: Let me say how
nice it is to have you here with us, and I hope you'll return often.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:12:12 (EST)
Again, thanks for the load data. What brand (and model) of press
and dies do you use to handload your ammunition?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 06:27:24 (EST)
Lapua makes two different 170gr FMJBT bullets. One is a regular FMJ
(D46 or 47?), the other is the LockBase VLD. I'm still at work... I've
got my data at home. Another interresting load is Lapua 168gr HPBT Scenar/
45gr VV N150. Harald Stenvaag used this load to become a 300m 60 shots
free rifle UIT world champion with a perfect and unbeatable score of 600p.
Thats a 60 shot group inside 10cm (4") prone unsupported with peepsights!
Imagine fireing the 60th shot with 59 X'es on the electronic monitor...
BTW. I'm a sniper, hunter and competitionshooter. I think most people are
consentrating too much about benchrest accuracy and not about real life
hitting potetial. Most "sniper rifles" are rigs for the shootingrange.
The are definently not designed for a 2 week patrol behind enemy lines.
I only use rigs with detach scopemounts that can shoot a 5 (cold)shot group
inside 10cm at 300m (4"/330yds). The 5 shots are fired in 48 hours from
different positions. (bench, trench, prone, sitting with supported back,
etc) Scope detach and reattach between shots. Cleaning rifle after 3rd
shot. After the rifle is sorted out you need to look at other things that
improves hitting potetial at live targets. Most forgotten is time of flight.
Most "sniperrifles" in this routine will not be able to keep up with a
WW2 M98K sniper or a H&K G3 with S&B 4X22 scope/H&K mount.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 07:52:05 (EST)
Mattias <mattiasbroden@hotmail.com>
Norrk÷ping, - Sweden - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 07:53:05
(EST)
Bolt Action versus Semi-auto: This argument holds little water in
the modern day of the semi-auto. I still prefer a bolt gun for tactical
use, but I can no longer claim the bolt gun superior in all things. Bolt
guns will consistently outshoot service grade semi-automatic rifles, but
they will no longer outpace gas guns of MODERN design by any great margin.
Modern design. That is the key word. We are not talking about M1 Garands
or M14s with their large moving internal mass. The AR15 based gas system
has little moving mass to upset the rifle during the firing process. I
am not surprised to see the SR25 do as well as it does. A good AR15 competition
rifle or space gun will easily shoot benchrest quality groups. We are talking
sub half moa. There is a very good reason why you see so many ARs on the
line at High Power matches and it has nothing to do with "whimps" or new
kids who can not handle recoil from "real" guns. These modern gas guns
are simply extraordinarily accurate, easy to shoot, and hard to beat in
the hands of a pro. So yes, the new semi-auto designs could easily become
the standard on the battle field as an SWS. They have several advantages
over bolts in that the user does not have to expose himself due to movement
after firing, nore is he limited to a small magazine. He also can better
defend himself if, God forbid, he is ambushed or tracked down. Try fighting
off the raging hord from 15 feet with a bolt gun. It is not recomended.
The semi-auto shooters main consern is the flying brass cathcing someones
attention and also not letting his discepline falter and allowing himself
to start plinking merrily away until he runs dry. Also, maintenance is
a slightly more time consuming endeavor, but not prohibitively so. A trained
shooter is going to maintain his weapon for near flawless operation no
matter what its design. For now the bolt rules amoung the major forces
more because they have spent time and money developing those systems. They
work wonderfully so why replace them at this juncture. But eventually,
as the systems age, I could easily foresee new gas gun designs taking over.
Accuracy is no longer the problem, nor is availability. Mind set has more
to do with it than anything. Like I said, I prefer a bolt gun for tactical
shooting. That means nothing in terms of the suitability of the gas gun.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 10:31:35 (EST)
Scott, Everything you said about semi autos is correct for match shooting. We have yet to find a semi that holds zero after an extended stalk and stay in the field due to debris in the gas system. This includes the SR and AR. That is why the bolt gun remains our primary SWS. We can't afford to lose accuracy after a movement through terrain that has fouled the weapon. Watch the line at those meets and see how those weapons are babied. And rightfully so, they are there to win and not to sneak around like kids. Properly camoed and flying brass is not a problem, properly camoed and snared brass is a problem. It will be a while before semis are used for other than area sniper weapon systems. As far as self defense, the SWS is bagged and an M4 is carried for self defense. The SWS is bagged for two reasons, one no base of fire comes forth from a six shot bolt gun. Two, SWS means sniper and that means at any range you are a primary target and attract very unwanted attention, trust me on that one!
Steve, The Mil calculations require a calculator only if you use the inch method. Use Height of target times 1000 divided by mils. This gives you range to target in the units used for the height of target, ie height meters range meters, height feet range feet. This works quite well for head to groin 1 meter miling on average size man, 2 meters for doors, tank height, cannon length, whatever. Add to the fact that with round 3/4 MOA mil dots you can break the mils into 10ths and with the premier 1/4 mil footballs you can break mils into 1/8ths. The Mils also allow for holds for wind, 1/4 Mil is slightly less than 1 MOA, Leads for movers out to whatever your gut and ego allows. 300 meters is usually where wind lead combo begins to ruin the ego but 600 meter movers are more than possible with training. Holds for elevation is a matter of ballistics as is a mirror hold with 700 meters on the gun, and neither the true stadia line scope nor a duplex will ever permit those holds. Yes I have worked with all three extensively with military, FBI, Secret Service, and a few other agencies. The Mil Dot is not a sacred cow it just simply works in the field under the conditions that I must work in and without a calculator, they do break at the darndest times!!!
Guess this got longer than I intended. Love these conversations though.
Keep the knowledge flowing. Love this site!!!
Rick <RBowcher@AOL.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 22:50:27 (EST)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 00:41:40 (EST)
I've got the same problem as you.
Sierra 175gr is the best for 8X57IS.
One can only hope that Sierra will make an 8mm 200gr MatchKing HPBT. (they've made a MK for .303 )
I've shot a M98K converted to 8X68S. MV with Sierra 220gr SPBT was 2900fps with HEAVY recoil.
Most M98K's in Norway are converted to 308win or 30-06.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 08:45:09 (EST)
http://www.armament.com/clean.htm
Not planning on doing anything else over the weekend, are you?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 10:38:50 (EST)
"We have yet to find a semi that holds zero after an extended stalk and stay in the field due to debris in the gas system. This includes the SR and AR. That is why the bolt gun remains our primary SWS. We can't afford to lose accuracy after a movement through terrain that has fouled the weapon. Watch the line at those meets and see how those weapons are babied. And rightfully so, they are there to win and not to sneak around like kids."
I have to take exception to that: I do not 'baby' my SR25 at the match! We do not have the mats, gloves, cute little chairs, etc. that you see at the high-power matches. What we shoot is what we pack to the 1000-yard line and back. We don't cancel our matches on account of rain or because we don't like to get muddy, my near-record score was shot in the middle of a downpour. When the targets pop up and I have 40 seconds for 3 shots from a standing start, I don't ease that big, black rifle down, it goes down NOW!
OK, I'll admit, even then the matches are not comparable to a field
stalk for putting stress on equipment. (Though I understand at least a
couple of SR-25s have made the course at Storm Mountain.) I haven't deliberately
dropped my Stoner on a rock just to see what would happen, but I'm willing
to believe it might not take that treatment as easily as a well-constructed
bolt gun. Do you have more details about what kind of problems the SR-25
experienced and whether or not their source was identified?
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 14:31:46 (EST)
Sorry man didn't mean that as an insult to your style of shooting. I had heard so many "paper shooters" talk about the accuracy they can get with their semi autos that I do become defensive. The great M21 debacle and the fight in 85-86 to get the bolt gun SWS off the ground has me sensitive to the subject.
We do try semi autos, we have worked the M21/25, AR, SR, H&Ks SWS, the Galil SWS, and several others, all lost accuracy in a field environment after an airborne insertion, travel through variuos terrain siuations and an extended stalk. Period in the field ran from 36 hours to 5 days. The problem is changes in barrel impulse as the weapon becomes dirty. Normal field cleaning does not solve the problem. This is why we are requiring only 600 meter accuracy with the sniper support system. We are looking at it in terms of defensive fire, and secondary supporting fire in a target enrich environment. I know only too well the limitations on a bolt gun that cannot lay down suppressing fire, nor can you hold terrain with the weapon. Choices are run or DIP.
The SR and AR are both fine weapons and there are other fine weapons
out there to be used by shooters. In the tactical world I live in I MUST
trust my weapon and until proven diffrently that weapon will be a bolt
gun. Remember, you can operate the bolt as fast as you want to while you
have to "wait" on the gas to operate the bolt on a semi.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:18:44 (EST)
Are you implying that you can be on target and ready for a follow
up shot before the bolt on a semi-auto cycles? If so, you're a lot faster
than I am (which is quite possible). My Stoners (Match and Carbine) definitely
keep ahead of me!
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Gig Harbor, WA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:51:36 (EST)
To Rick,
I never said that the mil-dot method didn't work, I just
find it slow and complicated.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Target is 2 yards
tall at a range of 775 yards. Now lets see how the answer
works out with your mil-dot method. 2 yards * 1000 = 2000
ok so far, I didnt need a calculator for that. thru the scope the
target appears less than 3 mils high but greater than 2 mils high. so I
carefully estimate the size of the little footballs and imagine that they
are laying on top of
each other up to the span of the target, and i guess that
the target spans maybe 2.6 OR 2.7 OR perhaps 2.55 mils
now tell me quick, what is 2000 divided by 2.6 without a pocket
calculator.
Now lets take a scope that I like. A weaver T-10 with a duplex reticule
The thin opening measures 9 1/4 inches exactly at 100 yards. I look at
the target and find that
it fits the thin opening perfectly and I say to myself,
height 72 inches range = 720 meters.
Familiarity with all things breeds competence. I will take you at
your word that you can esitmate range without a pocket calculator with
the mil-dots. Most of us can't though, unless the range just happens to
be at a convienant distance
Oh yes, you are quite right about the mil-dots being useful
for wind hold offs also. I forgot to mention that in my earlier
post.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H, Ohio USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 19:18:10 (EST)
Steve, I'm so happy your range happened to fit right in your duplex. Unfortunately that seldom occurs in life. Also a better reading on the hieght would have occured for you had you stood the "target" on top of a football. If it reached the bottom of the third football the height would of been 2.75. If it was below the football then set the bottom of the target on the bottom of a football and estimate how much it is above the second football or below the half way point, which ever is nearest. This will give you a much closer estimate of the Mil height. Just as you have memorized certain key elements of you reticule, we do the same in conversions. It also helps that our Mil Dots are in 3/4 MOA round dots, this permits Miling in increaments of tenths which is also easier. As has been said before, it is what the individual is used to and trained in that is easiest for that individual.
Keep the discussions going and share the knowledge, this is how I
keep my old mind from rusting!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 20:44:17 (EST)
HELP!
I have received reports that the Army is no longer using the M25
and that SOCOM has recalled all SR-25s. If you have information on either
issue, please e-mail me directly.
Thanks,
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere The Good Ole U.S. of A. - Saturday, April 04, 1998
at 19:43:58 (EST)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 22:36:08 (EDT)
Beats me. I thought it dragged!
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 03:12:03 (EDT)
Semi-autos: I agree that traditionally, the semi was not the way to go for long term accuracy. My previous comments do have some back ground in High Power, true, but with a properly built AR system, sight changes seem rare, or I have not abused my to the same level as Rick. With a free float tube, true heavy barrel, and proper powder, the AR has been pretty totally reliable in my experience. As I said earier, drop an M21 from 5 feet and you are out of business, drop an AR from higher and it generally will not notice. I am talking a purpose BUILT rifle here, not a rack grade system, although they hold up fairly well. Long term fouling is an issue in any system, but as we are talking about sniper systems, it is realistic to think a dedicated sniper will not clean and maintain his system religiously? If the AR gas tube ever get so bad it needs replacing, it only takes about 5 minutes to do this job. But again, with modern powder, the tube doesn't really foul.
Rick said:
"We do try semi autos, we have worked the M21/25, AR, SR, H&Ks
SWS, the Galil SWS, and several others, all lost accuracy in a field environment
after an airborne insertion, travel through variuos
terrain siuations and an extended stalk. Period in the field ran
from 36 hours to 5 days. The problem is changes in barrel impulse as the
weapon becomes dirty. Normal field cleaning does not solve the problem.
"
My question is, were these rack grade service rifles or weapons built for the sniper role? Also, if they were sniper systems, how often were they cleaned by the users? As an infantry troop, I let cleaning chores go for longer periods, but I can not think of any sniper who would dare do this unless totally stressed in a target rich and dynamic environment.
Anyway, I would agree that the day of the semi has not arrived yet. But it may not be that far off. Like you Rick, I STILL am a bolt guy. I just like to consider the alternatives.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 15:38:40 (EDT)
All weapons were dedicated to the sniper role and built specifically for that role. While they are getting better we still have problems. Cleaning a weapon after a stalk into view of your target is not an option, you must shoot what you have in hand. We have protected the weapons every way possible and still had problems. The big thing right now is that one time there may not be a shift or problem and the next time or two there will be a problem. I just can't risk that time or two. Cleaning the weapons is a constant ongoing process and yes we can be fanatical about it. Again it goes with the territory.
I will admit that if they show me a semi that will stay up then I'll be glad to shift over. As I said, defending yourself with a six shoot bolt gun .308 or four shot Mag, is just a little tiring and wears on the morale.
Come on guys if you know of a good semi let me know, the SO arena
is still in test phase for a new semi weapon.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 15:54:19 (EDT)
Gil, if you'd take some time to write to me, I'd be glad to give you some ideas about other references you may want to consider. I'd also direct your attention to our Bibliography page where you'll find (and this is NO joke) the best source of sniper-related references anywhere on the Internet. And I assure you, Gil, Mr. Bain works very hard to keep it that way, as do other members of our staff, such as Garry Blosser.
Thanks for your comments, Gil, it's good to hear from you.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 02:52:41 (EDT)
Things I learned @ recent advanced sniper school
1. Ghille suits are impossible to wear in blackberrys.
2. Mil dot scopes hard to read in dark.
Keep up the good work.
Joe R <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, WA USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 10:02:48 (EDT)
To all Fuzzy Triggerpullers.
Don't forget that you are in the middle of a Wad of Tinder when wearing the G-suit. And war tends to be a unpleasant season with fire etc. .
I have fireproofed (retarded) all my Ghillies with a solution available
here from manufacturers of Curtains Seats for Cinemas etc. With the fire
codes the way they are in the US you should get this type of stuff pretty
easy.
Spraying it on with a flower/garden type pump spray bottle works
fine. I add a little olive cloth dye to the solution so it is easier to
see which part is treated. It also gives a new Ghillie a little used look.
Our Sniper code is ATN 300 10 86 is this NATO standard ?
I now the Marine Corps is diffrent. Any Nato Snipers out there ?
Horrido !
Torsten PS I really liked the Egg in a Ghillie
(Kiwi)
Torsten Erning Ofw.d.R. <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 13:18:42 (EDT)
Today, I bought an ArmaLite Action Master in .223 Remington -- this is the kind of flat top model I've wanted for so long.
Also, I'm going to be in Wiesbaden, Germany, during 13-27 Jun 98, and it'd be nice to have a beer with some of you "EuroSnipers" if we can manage to find each other.
Oh, heck. Now I need a scope for ANOTHER rifle.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 15:51:52 (EDT)
Parks lays out in one page the real story behind the Hague Convention,
"dum dum" bullets, and sniper-use of open tip bullets. The arm-chair law
of war experts can sit down and shut up; Parks has spoken!
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, , Anywhere, USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 18:31:10 (EDT)
Steve: The idea of a fouling shot, or anti fouling in this case,
is not to smart a proposition as you may only have ONE shot in a lot of
situations. For the cop, this is always the rule. A soldier may have more
leeway, but counting on this is fool hardy, whether with a bolt gun or
a semi-auto. Granted, a snuffy can just nail the enemy with a body hit
and go home, but you still want that first shot reliability.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 20:40:16 (EDT)
Regards,
Hans, BC,Canada
Hans
BC Canada - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 01:53:54 (EDT)
Keep me informed on your Wiesbaden travel agenda.
Will you be in the North as well ?
If you are active or reserve Mil. then I may be able to get you
on a shoot with us. Scoped G-3 , G-36, and Mauser 86SR.
Good Hunting
Torsten
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 08:42:12 (EDT)
Was called out on 040598 2230 hrs for barricaded w/m who had slashed
his daughter's face and arm with a broken dinner plate. Suspect fled in
vehicle and a pursuit initiated. Roadblock was put in place and the suspect
drove his car (85 G.P.) directly @ Deputy who was outside his vehicle on
shoulder. Deputy drew and fired 2 rounds from Smith M59. First round hit
bumper (cops always shoot 1st round low for some reason) second hit hood/windshield
without penetration. Suspect struck Deputy, breaking his leg, and returned
home.
Suspect residence is built over a garage. Has a sliding glass door
and one window to North, no windows/doors to East, 2 windows to South,
2 windows and door to West. Master bedroom in NE corner w/slider and balcony.
secured a position across the street to the North, 47 yards out. Suspect
observed to change clothing 3 times in 5 hours. 2 additional sniper teams
arrived @ 0200 hrs and were assigned SE and W sides. All within 100 yds.
Power and phone terminated. 4 man swat team on East wall, 4 man team on
West wall. Negotiations continued until 0640 hrs. Suspect
surrendered. This is my third callout to this residence since 1983.
Suspect has two prior felony assault convictions on family members. Beat
wife in face with house brick, fired 3 rounds of 12 ga inside residence
during a family beef. Facing 2 counts of assault 1 (attempted murder)...
We have a "3 strike" rule in this state. 3 serious felonies and you get
life. We'll see.
As we were securing, suspects wife approached me and complained
that we took too long, didn't want the team to go in the house to confirm
it was cleared, and was angry that we turned the power off. I advised that
her tax dollars were at work! Stay Safe/JR
Joe R <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 11:02:29 (EDT)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 11:30:11 (EDT)
Bullet: 500 ibs DSFS.
Powder: 1000 ibs M8M
MV: 7200fps (!!)
Accelleration: 13000g
Have fun: http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/GeraldBullInfo.html
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 16:34:39 (EDT)
Does a recoil compensator inherently affect accuracy? My father enjoys going to the range and shooting my Savage 110, but the recoil is too much for him. This got me thinking about comps and their affect on performance. Does anyone have any experience with screw-on type compensators?
Anyone have any advice on bipods for the Choate/Plaster stock?
Need advice on a new tactical scope (Under $500). What's a good choice?
Russel: Thanks for all your advice and comments. Much appreciated...
Thanks for any input.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Kansas USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 21:54:57 (EDT)
I've also been a fan of Gerald Bull's work for many years. I followed his career while he was alive. Quite a guy. I miss him. Truly a man of vision. (I wonder if there's any correlation between my admiration of Gerald Bull and my fascination with powerful rifles and handguns. Hmmm.)
To Joe R. : Sorry about the deputy's busted leg. I can only hope that the offender gets what is coming to him. I'm rather sensitive to issues of domestic abuse, and it would make my day to learn that "Mr. Brick-in-the-Face" receives some, well, uh... attitude adjustment. On the matter of recycling bolts -- I am reminded of the comments by several professional hunters who say that the NUMBER ONE complaint they have about most of their clients is that the latter tend to want to admire their shots. Understandably, when dangerous game is involved, standing there admiring your shot is not well advised. I don't have this problem, and tend to recycle as soon as the previous shot is away. You might consider range practices where the officers are penalized when the targets don't go down. You'd need to be sporadic with this type of training, so they got the idea that they're supposed to keep shooting as long as the target is up. I blame Hollywood for the idiocy of today's youth, because too many times it only takes one shot to make the bad guy "go away." Real life is not like that, as in my favorite (reference) case of the doped up robber who took 18 rounds of 125-grain .357 magnum slugs before falling over. His blood was "orangeish-green" because of all the chemicals he'd been dumping into his body -- LSD, PCP, and God only knows what other initials, too. Of course, you could always shoot at your officers until they learned to recycle their bolts -- but no doubt your department has a policy against this. They'll learn. Or they'll die. It's pretty simple.
To Matt: Scope, Tasco Sniper (see our review). Compensators can ruin
accuracy though this is not often the case (they reduce felt recoil and/or
muzzle flip. Anytime you hang things off the end of your barrel, you're
tempting the gods. What I will say, though, is that I have used muzzle
brakes with great success and am quite pleased with the reduction in recoil
(read, "pain"). For your Choate stock, I'm happy with my M-85 bipods, but
you might want to look at the Versa-Pod (see our review). When the weather
in my area permits, I'll get a review done of the Choate/Plaster stock.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 03:42:58 (EDT)
Go to Tankers forum/messtent.
The topics about about tankguns tankammo and ballistics are exellent.
The website has a good design for discussion, deviding them into topics.
Heavy Metal: http://www.airfax.com/tanks/
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 03:59:38 (EDT)
Joe R. I use a cleaning rod to the hand of any student that doesn't cycle immediately after shooting. Of course the army does have slightly diffrent training parameters than LEA. Only kidding, practice and competition works the best. Especially with the A type personnality necessary in the LEA community. Use multiple targets and very short time periods. If you have access to a KD range with pits, then place a head sized target on 2x2 that is long enough to expose the target above the butts. raise the target randomly over a 5 to 7 meter front and give the shooter a 3 sec exposure. After three seconds drop the target, move to another location and raise the target after 5 to 7 seconds. This will get their attention when a penaly in incurred for each unfired round and or miss. Use your imagination for penaly. Loser cleans everybody else's kit is a start.
Steve, a fouling shot is not practical in our line of work. Also the build up of junk is not in the barrel and a shot could actually make the problem worst.
Scott, A 2x converter may not be a good idea. There are problems incurred with the teleconverters, such as increased mirage distortion, focusing problems, and your 40 will become a 20 with a quartering of light transmittance, thus a very dark field of view. I really reccommend against the use of the of the 2x teleconverter.
Keep the discussions going guys, I love this site!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 22:34:41 (EDT)
It was mentioned that a few users of the ACOG report that the reticle tends to look like it is "flapping its wings" -- that is, that the outer left- and right-most extents of the horizontal line can appear to move up and down (with the center remaining "motionless") if the shooter moves his head while peering through the sight. This is not a "design flaw," but was the result of how the issue of parallax was addressed. The point of impact and point of aim are unaffected by this (possibly) perceived "flexing," and the shooter, once properly trained to ignore this flexing (if he or she even notices it), can VERY quickly engage a target with first-round hits. According to the ArmaLite catalog, the TA01 reticle is red at night.
Anyone having any experience with the ELCAN, what do you think of
it?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 03:15:19 (EDT)
I competed sometimes against the US Shoting Team from Fort Benning.
One of the US teammembers I met was a former sniper.
He had served in Vietnam.
He told me that he sometimes used a rifle in .25-06 and that he had kills with it.
Any comments?
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 09:14:42 (EDT)
It's slower than the regular MRP.
It is designed for overbore rounds like 30-378 etc. (It's probably used in the factoryround)
Should be great in .25-06, .264WM, 7mm STW, etc.
Have not tested it yet.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 09:23:47 (EDT)
Nathan, thanks for the tips, and, of course, I am planning on being the best (insert job title here) when I get hired on in an agency first. I enjoy long range shooting and was pretty darn good at it as a Marine, and will pursue it further whether or not I get on a SERT team. Prarie dogging is a State Sport in Eastern Oregon. But a .338 Lapua would be overkill... Anyway, I am learning a lot from the site and am letting my schoolwork pile up beside me while I peruse this site in particular. Good luck in OK at Muskogee PD.
Has anyone had much experience with the H-S Precision rifles? How
does the company rate? How do the rifles rate?
Michael Roberts <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Vernonia, Oregon USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 13:27:58 (EDT)
Please include rifle type, modifications if any, caliber, load data, and scope type. Wind data would be helpful if you have it.
Thanks all. You can consider this a group project and I welcome all
useful input.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 14:43:19 (EDT)
One shot one kill is to denote accuracy, not necessarily the mission of the sniper. Yes, under most situations once the sniper triggers he must get out of the AO due to the attitude problem he usually creates in the gentlemen that are left in the immediate area of his shot. However, there are times when a target rich environment just begs for more shots. Also snipers also do odd things, such as support for the offense and the defense. This requires multiple target engagement. Remember, contrary to many movies, the sniper is not some sneaky ninja that runs around on his own. He supports the command's missions and those missions are varied. Thus the sniper's missions are varied. While the bolt gun has the edge for specific targeting at long range, the semi has the edge for many missions that are mid range and are "area" in nature, ie offense or defense.
I know guys I've been saying that the bolt gun is the gun but read back and I have mentioned the area sniper weapon. Many have the mind set of the sniper ambush only. The sniper mission is direct action in support of the commander's goals with an equal mission of human intelligence in support of the unit's S2. This is why one gun fits all does not work properly and a multiple gun concept is being used so the sniper can select the SWS required for his particular given mission.
Isn't it fun to argue both sides!!!!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 23:27:14 (EDT)
So, what does it all mean to you in your quest for skill and accuracy? If your rifle can shoot .5 moa off a bench, you should practice to the point that you can at least match that in the field. It is not always possible, but that is your goal. The AT1-M24 I used at SMTC could easily shoot .3 or .4 moa all day from the prone at 100 yards. But I was seldom able to match that at range in the wind or rain. I could come close, say .5 to .8 at any time, but execpt for those few rare moments of a steady wind, outshooting the rifle would have been impossible. If you shoot police oriented tactical scenarios, you want to be able to keep your shots into the size of a quarter at 100 yards from various supports. In any condition. That is a reasonable expectation. If you shoot military courses of fire, you should be able to make body hits to 1000 yards. Whether you are shooting a 5 inch group at 800 yards or an 8 inch group becomes somewhat irrelevent. The hit is the thing. Bad guy might care if you took his leg out or his arm or his pulminary system, but all you care is that he is out of action and either dead or too screwed up to carry the fight to your comrades.
My advice, for what it is worth, is to shoot at ranges over 400 yards as much as possible. Verify if your rifle holds sub moa at those ranges and if not, figure out why. I say to practice at longer ranges because it helps develop a sense of precision you do not get at shorter ranges. If you are limited to a 100 or 200 yards range, shoot at the smalest target point you can resolve in your scope. It will force you to slow down and concentrate.
Last thought for the day: If one shot one kill was the ONLY goal,
we'd all be shooting single shot falling block actions. Rick has it totally
right. The MISSION is the thing. It dictates all else.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 20:19:06 (EDT)
Hans
B.C. CANADA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 04:23:16 (EDT)
Now, a lot of guys will come forward and say, "my out-of-the-box Savage, Winchester, or Remington can do that or better." I say "maybe." Many of these shooters with "wonder" guns base their measurements on 2-3 shot groups, or fail to measure their groups from the centers of the bullet holes. And many, in my opinion, are liars. These are the same guys who caught huge fish, bagged many-antlered game, etc.
So, one might say, "my rifle can shoot as good at the Armament Technology
rifle and is much less that the over $3,000 [well over] that Bain paid
for his rifle. Why waste your money?" Simple, your rifle won't last as
long as the AT, it won't retain accuracy as long as the AT, and it won't
take the abuse that the AT will. Recall that the Marines took out-of-the-box
rifles to Viet Nam in the 60s for use as sniping rifles. They found that
guns could not withstand the climate or the use.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:07:55 (EDT)
Regarding the technique of firing a shot to clean the barell
before actually engaging a target in a tactical situation, I
must say that I believe it to be a very dangerous idea.
In a tactical situation, the sniper relies on surprise more
more than anything. You also must consider yourself to be
under observation AT ALL TIMES.
Fouling in a barrel is reduced by putting electrical tape or a
plug over the end of the barrel as a pre-combat check, and
by routine maintainence.
Also, why waste that round? If you insist on firing a fouling
shot then why not aim it at your target anyways? You might
just truly foul someones day.
SWS MAINTAINENCE IN THE FIELD:
Comments were made to the effect that a sniper should relentlessly
clean his weapon in the field. This has not been the case in
my experience. Every effort should be taken to ensure its going
to stay clean in the field (i.e. tape the end of the barrel, a removable
rag under a freefloating barrel which can be pulled out to remove
debris before establishing your FFP etc).
Further, the weapons generally are very reliable and can function
well with minimal care.
Also, the type of care a sniper weapon should be given when it
is given a detailed cleaning is a consideration. One should use
a
one piece rod and different types of solvents and oils. This
is hardly acceptable in a tactical/field environment.
However, a sniper teams security concerns make stopping for
frequent detailed weapons maintainance an unwanted event. The
team does not have 30 infantrymen to post OPs, secy patrols and
establish
a perimeter while they pull maintainence.
I am not saying its never done. But it is a task to avoid
if possible.
Keep it simple in the field. You are there to kill bad guys.
Don't confuse rifle range or competition tasks with the real
thing.
Then again, what the hell, its just my opinion.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:40:50 (EDT)
Saw an article concerned about a Tasco scope with no space for
a screw in sun shade, suggesting using an anti reflective
coating. Good ideas for a real issue.
For us poor folk though, a set of womans nylons pulled over
the end of the scope helps alot, is more affordable, and alot
more fun to obtain.
This is an excellent web site and forum. I appreciate the
opportunity to participate and have already picked up some
good ideas.
Thanks to everyone.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:59:28 (EDT)
On the Powell River Labs stuff: These folks are making miracles! Their developments are VERY interesting. Sadly, I can not afford their products or I'd have reviewed them for you by now!
Mr. Bains AT1-M24: Folks, there are no over the shelf rifles capable of this kind of accuracy. Not consistantly. This is what you pay for when you go with a purpose built rifle made by a top notch armorer. My PSS has printed groups in the .3s occaisionally, but not consistantly. Bain's AT1-M24 will do it all day as long as you do your part. As in all things, you really do get what you pay for!
Jeff: Good points all! By maticulous cleaning I was refering more to general inspection than actual bore chores. I would think that snipers tend to be gun cranks where as regular infantry just clean when forced to and have no intense interest in precision shooting or the required maintainence. But you are totally correct stating that daily cleaning is not possible. I can honestly say the the above mentioned AT1-M24 went 600 rounds before I got around to cleaning the bore and it never suffered more than a 1/2" change in zero. Most of the "cleaning" was simple wipe downs, scope maintenance and checking the barrel channel. I simply didn't have time to clean the bore. I'd rather let a bore go dirty than use a field issue segmented rod.
Sunshades: Butler creek now offers a thin version Tenabraex's KillFlash as the SportFLASH. It costs about $15. Also, it appears that TASCO now has a built in sunshade.
Fouling shots: My own opinion would be they are never acceptable
or realistic. As was pointed out to me recently by Rick, the problem with
the semi in a military environment is all the crude that can jam between
the barrel and the gas tube, or the barrel and the free float tube. It
would seem that the only answer is to have a completely exposed barrel
with an aluminum or composit stock spaced well away. Not sure how to handle
the gas tube. Expect any barrel shroud to fill with gunk during the stalk.
Finding a fix for this should prove interesting. Till then, it seems unlikely
that the semi will take over as the primary SWS. Were I a cop though, it
would be the only system I'd carry. A semi makes a lot of sense for LE.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 21:53:13 (EDT)
Don't let the understatement fool you. Scott will out-shoot most
around.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 01:33:17 (EDT)
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 04:10:11 (EDT)
I would say that there are no american factory rifles capable of this kind of accuracy. Only american custom or semicustomrifles like ATI-M24 are capable of that. In Europe the story is different. We are used to the "Anschutz-syndrome" when it comes to target or sniperrifles. That is out of box accuracy and shootability.
Price has ofcource something to do with things but there are "cheap" eurorifles out there.
The Scandinavian DCM's are using a standard targetrifle called Sauer
200 STR (Scandinavian Target Rifle). This rifle costs $1100 (US) + tax
in Norway. Quick-change barrels are $200. The rifle is listed in GD97 as
Sauer 202 TR Targetrifle, $1900/425. Mel's Sniperpage has a picture of
the rifle called SSG-3000. There are 30-40000 STR's in shooters hands now
in Norway (pop. 4 mill !). In any form of shootingevent, except benchrest,
this rifle blows the others away due to its accuracy and shootability.
The gunsmiths hate the rifle. The only work they have left is an
occational beddingjob. All other gunsmithing can be done by the shooter
on the range.
Other more expensive european rifles capable out of box are: Accuracy Int, Blazer Tactical, Steyr SSG, etc
BTW, my favourite american rifle is the Wichita Silouette. I'd like to order one with the sidemounted mag. (stenguntype) and Anschutz trigger for sunshine sniping :-)
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 05:31:08 (EDT)
On BlackStar process: I just got my PSS back and will start the testing
process out in the next month. As far as their barrels go I can not say.
Does anyone else have an actual BlackStar barrel they can comment on?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:16:56 (EDT)
Now, as far as the AT1-M24. All groups mentioned were made with Federal Gold Medal, 168 grain match. If you want more info on the weapon itself, please read my review in the "In Review" section. You can follow the link to Andy's site. I believe his rifle is about $2000 minus optics. The rifle is a Rem 700 with a Mike Rock barrel, 5-R Obermeyer twist. Andy does not make the only worthy SWS out there, it just happens to be the one I played with most recently! You can figure on spending between $1300 to $3500 for any decent purpose built rig from many builders.
Group size: My method of late for measuring the FIVE shot groups is to meticulously measure the outside edge of the group, and subtract the bullet diameter. To make this simple, I measure the two farthest holes in the group. I have found it very hard to measure the exact center of a hole, as this involves some interpretation. Measuring from the edge gives you a visible mark to start from. But any of the methods you mentioned work.
TorF: I would not go so far as to say that there are no factory rifles
capable of sub half moa. Depending on caliber, there are several that will
regularly dip into this range. My 700 VS in .22-250 is easily a .4 moa
rifle, Mr. Taylors .308 Savage 110FP is, if memory serves, a .5 to .6 rig.
I believe his .22-250 shoots below that. My PSS will go into the .3s but
not consistently. I have not been able to ascertain if it is me or the
rifle! Logic says it is a little of both. I'll settle for an average of
.6 moa for now. Keep in mind also that many of the groups mentioned are
fired with 10x scopes, sometimes less. I have found that I can take a third
off the group by using a 20x scope as I can hold a point with higher consentration.
But to me, mounting a high magnification scope no longer qualifies the
rig as a tactical rifle so I do not mention these groups.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:56:04 (EDT)
Steve:
You have a very valid point about the variance of a first rounds
impact.
In the military, we call that a "cold barrel" zero and use our logbooks
to record and understand the variance. It can be overcome with a
little bit
of record keeping and attention to detail.
By using this technique, you can overcome the tremendously risky
tactical
disadvantage you would pose to yourself and your sniper buddy by
using a fouling
shot. The military sniper team is at tremendous risk when it shows
itself and should
never use a fouling shot. I am certain that in a real conflict,
the sniper who uses
fouling shots routinely would not be long to this world.
Which is why I am harping on it a little bit. No disrespect or hard feelings intended.
SCOTT
It was a pleasure to hear your comment about using air strikes or
indirect fire assets for
targets beyond one thousand meters. FO procedures are one of the
most important skills a sniper
can have, yet are often not well developed ones. A good military
sniper always designates TRPs to
cover his insertion, movement, actions at the obj, and extraction
if they are available.
Glad to hear some of the military considerations regarding sniping.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:27:40 (EDT)
What is an AT-1 M-24? I used an M-24 on active duty but have no idea
what the AT-1 is?
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:37:50 (EDT)
I'm very aware that factoryrifles shoot very well.
But if you take 50 rifles with consecutive(?, my english...) serialnumbers XXXX01 - XXXX50 quality varies to much on american factoryrigs.
If you buy an Anschutz, Steyr or Sauer match/sniper you know that you are going to get a perfect trigger and proven accuracy. You don't have to be lucky. All 50 rifles in the serialnr.range will perform.
With american rifles you have to buy a custum/semicustom to get this level of performance.
In Norway the today level of competition are such that you have to have quickchange barrels etc. It's not unusual to put 15-20000 rounds through the matchrig in one year.
I just wish that all rifles could have the same quality as Anschutz
.22LR matchrigs.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:49:11 (EDT)
As for what to take to SMTC, I recommend reading my article
on the school and X-Ring’s piece
as well.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 17:54:33 (EDT)
Yes the Steyr SSG is a dated design.
I had the Match-version with heavier barrel and .308win match-chamber. It shot very well.
I also had the mag.problems. It could be solved by giving the rotary spring an extra turn and only use fresh mags.
The SSG 69 has a machinegun-chamber to make it work with all types of 7,62NATO ammo wich is not identical to .308win. It sounds terrible but try necking down .358win-brass. It will probably fit the chamber better... If the action, chamber and rear lockinglugs, are soaking wet you can expect the first round to go up to 3" wide at 100yds...
I have a problem expressing myself in a foreign language...
What I mean is shootability not inherrent accuracy. I use a Rem 40XC KS and a Rem 700 VS for some formal targetshooting. If I want these rifles to be competitive I have to do something with them like changing triggers, springs, fireingpins(speedlock) etc.
BTW as a sniper I prefer an autorifle with a reliable QD scopemount that shoots sub-moa with regular machinegunammo. Fortunatly most Norwegian produced H&K G3's in good condition do that giving a sniperrange of 600m. Mission is weeks on end behind enemy lines usually on skis in the winter or stay behind in an occupied country (my uncle did 3 years playing cat and mouse with the Gestapo). Regular sniperrifles don't like that much except M98's with QD mounts. The feelgoodfactor of an auto in these surroundings more than compensates for the difference in accuracy.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 17:54:53 (EDT)
TorF: You have a point about triggers and other out of the box issues
one might experience with stock US varmint/tactical arms. But for all that,
they, at least in my humble experience, still shoot very well. For instance,
every Remington I own came with a hateful eight pount lawyer driven trigger.
Yet each one still shot just above half m.o.a. I just can not get to exercised
about that. In fact I'd have to say bloody well done to these major labels
for being able to crank out non-tuned, production fodder that shot so well.
Particularly for the money. $300 to $600 US. On another subject: Feel free
to regal us with stories about your uncle. I have a particular interst
of the history in your neck of the woods during WWII.
Scott <Xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 21:15:26 (EDT)
Ross' rifle was a Ultra Light Arms (!) single shot chambered for .30/416 Rigby necked down and blown out.
The rifle had a Douglas barrel.
He used .50BMG powders getting 3500fps with 200-220gr bullets.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 04:19:15 (EDT)
Nathan,I agree with you about the Ruger 10-22.I bought mine new in
1976 for $58,I must have fired a half million rounds through it and it
still works as good as the day I bought it.I have the original factory
barrel on it but it is plenty accurate enough to make me happy.You are
also right about the type of discussion in here.Nobody arguing with or
insulting anyone else,just good intelligent discussion.
Kodiak
USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 04:42:52 (EDT)
We all agree that most interresting rifles will shoot .5 MOA or less from a rest. If you are going to hit something out there unsupported other things come in to play. I'll list the things that are important to me.
Trigger: If the rules or safe handling requires a 3ibs triggerpull a two stage trigger is the only way to go. 2ibs for first stage takeup and 1ib for letoff. I think Jewell is the only maker of such triggers for Remington actions. In Europe twostage matchtriggers for M98 and Krags are fitted to Win 70 actions. American Wichita-actions can be ordered for Anschutz-triggers.
Action-time: The timespan from the trigger is pulled to the bullet leaves the barrel. Shorter timespan = better hittingpotential. I have a great example. Take a Rem 700 and a 788. If all things are equal, accuracy and triggerpull, compare actiontime. If the triggers of these rifles are pulled at exactly the same moment the bullet of the 788 has left the barrel before the striker on the 700 has hit the primer. Wich rifle do you think has the best hittingpotential if you are firering on a live target and you are nervous, excited, etc. The same applies for targetshooting. The siluetteshooters know this. That's why speedlock are in business selling titanium fireingpins and stiffer fireingsprings. Any gun with a hammer has a big disadvantage unless it is a compromise for surviveability in the field. In top level ISU/UIT competition you don't have a snowballs chance in hell with a hammerrifle. 22RF autofans should look at Brownings stikerfired takedown and rebarrel it AR15 style and mounting scope on a tubular handguard round a freefloating matchbarrel.
Recoil: This has nothing to do with coping with recoil but how you can handle it. Any sniper should be able to shoot a .5 moa group with 5 shots from different positions with different type of rests. If the rifle is chambered for .308win it is easier to do this with a 150gr bullet than a 168gr or 190gr. Differenses in recoil, barreltime and movement of the gun in an angle compared to barrel centerline affects hittingpotential. This problem can be solved by adding weight but I'be never seen a sniper with a gunbearer safaristyle. Accuracy is also affected by the type of rest you are using. Shooting groups with shots from different positions I have never been able to get .5moa groups unless I have my left/supporting hand between the rest and the rifle. This seems to some degree eliminating differenses in gunvibration from different types of rests. Bipods, hmm... They work on varmintrounds.
Ballistics: Another time :-)
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 06:44:43 (EDT)
What position are you talking about? Prone from a bipod? I am curious as shooting a .5 moa group didn’t seem particularly troublesome with a bipod rest and a bean bag under the buttstock steadied by the off hand. Of course, this was a bolt gun with a free floated barrel. You did mention earlier you are equipped with a G3? Could your handguard be imparting pressure upon the barrel in the same manner as a stock AR15?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 08:47:03 (EDT)
My rifles seems to "bounce" differently when resting the stock directly
on different rests. This is with boltaction match/sniperrifles with freefloating
barrels. I eliminate the problem in the field by putting my hand between
the stock and the rest/sandbag/fence/whatever.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 09:18:10 (EDT)
I was real interested in the commnents about your uncle's role
as a sniper in WWII. Although I was regular army for quite a
while, I am now in a National Guard Mountain Infantry unit that
trains with the Norwegian ski troops.
One of the major problems we have is understanding that standard
light infantry tactics are not what we should be using given our
mission.
The Norwegian ski troops performed admirably against its invaders.
Any comments about what you uncle did are appreciated and
respected.
Jeff
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 09:51:54 (EDT)
Some accuracy figures:
1. Rem PSS, action bedded in the aluminum bedding block, with Brownells
steel bedding
compound barrel has been pressure lapped with the Neco process.
(much less fouling).
Federal 175gr Gold Metal, chrongraphed at 2625fps, temp 72deg. This
rifle shoots 1"
to 1 1/2" groups at 200yards, and 4 1/2" to 5" groups at 550yds.
These results have been
within the last 3 weeks, with no wind free days. I have worked up
my reload for
this, as follows: 42.2gr 4064, Fed match primers, and the original
case. Same
velocity, and the same accuracy. The Fed cases that I have from
the 168gr match
are lighter, and I have not played with them yet. The 168gr and
the 175gr both
show the same grouping. The 168gr are showing 2680fps. The above
are 5 shot groups.
2. Winchester M70 HB 308. This rifle has the stock SS barrel, with
the action bedded
as above. It actually shoots a little tighter than the PSS. It has
shot a several
1/2" 3 shot groups at 200yds. This gun seems to like Rem 308 match
ammunition.
3. Rem 300win, 26" Shilen barrel, (#7 contour I think), H.S. adjustable
stock, also
bedded as above. Ammunition is Win case, Fed match primer (not mag).
67.2gr 4350,
200gr MK, with a velocity of 2815fps. This shoots just about ther
same as the
above PSS.
One story about the 300win. I had not shot this gun for about 2 years.
Loaded up the
above ammo, and 2 weekends ago,and shot it at 550yds. I told my
wife that I needed
her to spot my 1000yd target (concrete slab, 36" high by 30" wide).
I did not have the
comeups, so ran the Sierra Balistics program, and it showed 28.5
min up from the 200yd
zero. There was a light wing from 1300hr. Held at the rt side, half
way up. I did
not really expect to hit it, but it was a perfect head shot at the
top of the concrete.
Really impressed the wife. The rest of the shots were ok, but not
as good as the first.
If anyone is from the W. PA. area, let me know if you want to shoot.
The 600yd range is
150yds from the house, and the 1000yd is just a little further...Ken
Ken Potter <kpotter@pulsenet.com>
Clarksville, PA USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 12:16:51 (EDT)
Second for those of you had helped me decide which gun to get. My 308 12fvss Savage came in last night and is now off for the barrel to be freeze dried and the action accurized.
I didn't even take it out of the box. Man I can't wait.
Tom
Front Royal, VA USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 13:24:06 (EDT)
To the guy who wondered how his 14 inch group stood up.
My experience in competition long range shooting.
If I were to shoot a 20 shot group at 600 yards into 14 inches,
prone with open sights I would be VERY happy with it. A five shot group
is not so hot but may not be indicative of your rifles grouping ability
or your skill. Shooting at 600 yards is difficult because of the wind.
Shooting at 1000 yards can be a humbling experience.
I have witnessed several occasions at 1000 yards where NRA
classified expert shooters have walked off the firing line
after firing 25 or so shots and never once hit a 6 foot
square target. Even if one becomes skilled at estimating
what the wind is doing at the firing line it takes far more
skill to estimate what the wind is doing at all ranges between you
and the target. I have been playing this game
for 25 years and I only consider myself mediocre at this
wind doping business (and that is on a good day.)
Steve <nato@bright>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 19:28:05 (EDT)
Anyone who has any sniping photos who DOES NOT OBJECT to having them
included in a student handout, please forward them to me via email.
Any photos of snipers are welcome, but I have a real need to show:
Sniper firing positions using a shooting sock/bag
Ghillie suites
Hides (urban/rural/varying environments)
Terminal ballistics results on various media such as concrete, wood
etc.
Proper/Improper camo
Insertions/extractions
Different stages of weapons maintainance.
Any photos used will contain a credit to the sender, provided he
provides a
name and organization.
Thanks
Jeff
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 19:51:47 (EDT)
Anyone who has any sniping photos who DOES NOT OBJECT to having them
included in a student handout, please forward them to me via email.
Any photos of snipers are welcome, but I have a real need to show:
Sniper firing positions using a shooting sock/bag
Ghillie suites
Hides (urban/rural/varying environments)
Terminal ballistics results on various media such as concrete, wood
etc.
Proper/Improper camo
Insertions/extractions
Different stages of weapons maintainance.
Any photos used will contain a credit to the sender, provided he
provides a
name and organization.
Thanks
Jeff
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 21:50:42 (EDT)
Muzzlebreaks: Over the last few years, I have tried various muzzlebreaks
(KDF, Boss, Magnaport,etc.) on high power rifles. They all do the job of
reducing recoil, but at a price of increased noise levels. Some break manufacturers
claim that the ports on a break have to be cut evenly around the break
in order to maintain accuracy. However, if you look at some tactical rifles
(Sako TRG, Dakota Longbow, AW,
etc.) the ports on the muzzlebreaks are only on top and sides. This
is, of course, to minimize the dust signiture when shooting prone. My questions
are:
*To maintain good accuracy, does it matter if the ports are evenly
around the break, or only on top / sides?
* Is there breaks that are not recommended?
If anyone has experience with this and want to share their thoughts,
it would be greatly appreciated!?
Hans
B.C. Canada - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 11:18:18 (EDT)
DOG2197: Thanks for your help. Your FAX was busy yesterday.
Rick & XRING: Thanks for my rebolting training problem. Multiple targets and verbal assault (ala Plaster) seems to be working. Thanks again...
Triggers and stuff: My agency lets me adjust our Remington PDM 700's
to 3.5 lbs. That seems to work for us. We are limited to factory ammo,
and are using the 168 gold medal. What about this new Federal Tactical
ammo? We only practice out to 300 yds since the AVERAGE police shot is
75 or so... I would love to see what I could (couldn't?) do at 1000. We
got new drag bags from Remington which are working out well. I think they're
made by Assault Systems. Remington Law Enforcement price was 150.00. Well
gotta go, boss is looking....stay safe/Joe
Joe R <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, wa USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 14:39:25 (EDT)
Rick of Ontario, Canada: I like both the .40 S&W (H&K USP)
and .45 ACP (Gunsite Custom Springfield 1911 and Colt Commander). I have
the Browning HP and the Glock 17 to and find them very enjoyable to shoot.
What are you going to use the pistol for? Aren't there restrictions on
pistol ownership in your country? Are you L.E.?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 17:35:41 (EDT)
Those of you who are coming as a spectator, consider bringing your shooting gear. Chances are you may be able to team up on the spot with others of like mind. Thanks to all of you who have signed on. Those of you who have been waiting to make up your mind, here is your chance. Mothers Day weekend is just three and a half weeks away!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 17:39:10 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 18:01:08 (EDT)
6.5X55 is not used as a sniperround because it's not officially adopted as a military round anymore.
It is very much in use as a target/matchtround. The scandinavian DCM shooters can choose between the 6.5 and 308win in their Sauer 200 matchrifles. At least 90% of the shooters go for the 6.5X55. I think no major national match has been won with 308win. 308win has an advatage in barrellife. As a sniperround it is also better if you have to shoot trough windows etc.
There are several different types of factory matchammo to choose from. Raufoss/Sierra, Norma and Lapua makes ammo for different types of competition.
Ammo for longrange fieldtarget (exellent snipertraining) are best for sniping. A typical fieldtarget round is loaded with a 140gr HPBT match, BC .600, at 2850fps. Trajectories and winddrifttables are almost identical to the .300winmag sniperround. Recoil is less than any .308win load wich makes it easier to shoot well.
Ammo for 200m and 300m formal targetshooting are the usual 140gr bullet at 2600fps for increased barrellife.
Juniorshooters has a redused load for 100m target. Bullet has to be 100gr at 800ms (ca.2600fps).
Reloaders are experimenting a lot with VLD bullets in the 109gr to 130gr range at high velocities. Norma has a factoryround with a 130gr VLD molycoated bullet, BC .548, at 900ms(ca.2900fps). This is the flattest shooting nonmagnum factoryround I've ever fired. With a 300m/330yds zero bulletdrop is only 16cm/6.5" at 600m/660yds.
American barrels for 6.5/.264 are usually tighter than their european
couterparts. Douglasbarrels perform exellent giving higher veloceties than
anything else. The above mentioned Normaammo has been clocked to almost
3000fps in a huntingrifle with a 24" stainless Douglasbarrel. If anyone
has plans for a 6.5 I recomend a 1-8" twist.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 18:27:19 (EDT)
I said earlier that my uncle played cat an mouse with the Gestapo for 3 years. I mentioned it just to show that a mission can be long in this country. He was not a sniper but served in a underground army called MILORG in the Oslo area. He does not like to talk much about it. He was rewarded above average after the war. I think he was doing dirty work handling traitors and dangerous persons.
There has been written a lot of books in norwegian about the subject.
Some has been translated to english. I can recomend "Report from nr. 24"
by Gunnar Soensteby. He was leader in one of the sabotageunits in Oslo.
Incredible stuff.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 18:54:10 (EDT)
Mr. Bain: I plan to use the gun basically for punching paper. Yes
there are restrictions on handguns in Canada. The following is the way
I understand the laws as they have been explained to me. You must first
aquire an FAC (Firearms Aquisition Certificate ... required for the purchase
of ANY firearms), this requires taking a 16hr course which involves safe
handling of various firearms, and a final exam ($150). You must take proof
of passing this course to your local Provincial Police station, along with
a passport photo, your FAC application, and three signed references which
WILL be checked. They mail this to the Capital, and if everything checks
out in 8-10 weeks you recieve and FAC in the mail. Now you can buy a rifle
or shotgun. To buy a handgun you must send your FAC
to the dealer you are buying the pistol from. They send your gun
to the nearest police station. The police call you to come and pick up
your gun. When you arrive at the station, you are issued a permit to convey,
and a permit to store (providing your storage facilities are satisfactory).
This allows you to take the gun to your house where you MUST lock it with
a trigger or cable lock, and lock it in a cabinet, the ammunition must
be locked in a separate container. This does not allow you to shoot your
gun. You MUST become a member of the local gun club, and recieve their
blessing in order to get a permit to carry it to the range (directly from
your house). To get their approval you must take a handgun course from
the gun club ($25), and of course pay your membership dues ($70). In order
for the club to sign for your permits, you must come out to the range at
least 3 times a year. Finally I am a civilian (L.E. means Law Enforcement
right? ... I believe I am more of an F.N.G.)
Thanks again.
Rick <Rick_Ankney@Avenor.com>
ON CAN - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 21:37:34 (EDT)
Thanks for your note about your uncle's role in WWII
EVERYONE ELSE:
Thanks for the emails and faxes. I am having some problems printing the student handout from my computer since I scanned some photos into it, since my printer doesn't have the memory sufficient to print it all.
Thank you for you patience in waiting. Your requests have not been
forgotten.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 22:29:42 (EDT)
And to answer your question, I've had BlackStar do two of my barrels, my 110FP Tactical and the one for The Wrath of God. They also gave the latter a double cryogenic freezing.
To Dan: On muzzle crowns, the main thing is to protect the rifling. The last inch -- indeed, the last fraction of an inch, is the most critical to the accuracy of each shot. All other matters are cosmetic. Again, you want to protect the crown. I recommend having a gunsmith with the correct tools (read, "lathe") do the work for you. Even if you were a machinist and could do the work yourself, you'd have to buy the tools (probably from Brownells) -- but for a one-time job. Just spend the money on a good gunsmith.
To Nathan and/or Torsten: Research that rifle which Ross Seyfried tested and get back to me as soon as possible. (Too bad it isn't a factory chambering less than .40 caliber.)
To Tom: Who did you speak to at Savage? What you reported is completely opposite of what I was told, and I was very specific about the methods of their test. Regardless, test or not, a solid receiver has to be stronger than one with a substantial amount of metal removed and, again, if repeaters were "the ticket" to great accuracy, the benchrest guys would all be using repeaters. I'll call Joe DeGrande at Savage, or one of the other engineers, but I'd like to know who you spoke to, Tom. You're having your 12FVSS' action "accurized?" Huh? Are you having the locking lugs lapped? The barrel threads trued? The bolt raceways polished? The trigger lightened? If you're having the lugs lapped, then I have two comments: 1) you wasted your money, because the Savage's bolt head design virtually negates this work being necessary, and 2) if you did have the lugs lapped, then to do the job properly the barrel should be set back and reheadspaced. If you're not having the lugs lapped into 100% contact, then it shouldn't have been done in the first place, although if that's the case you probably won't need to worry about headspace.
To Bill: On rating rifles by their largest group size, for a sniper and/or a hunter the group that matters is the "cold" group, not the one you get when the barrel's been heated due to a prolonged shooting session. Other than this, I'd agree with you.
On the Carlos N. Hathcock Charity Sniper Competition: Seconding Scott's plea for individual shooters to step forth, I have to tell you that on the events where I went prairie dogging with "unknown and assigned" partners, that I learned a lot, made one or more friends, and had the time of my life -- which is to say, "fun." If you're an individual shooter who's been thinking about this event, but haven't made up your mind, ask yourself this. Who needs the (your) $150 more -- you, or the Hathcock family? And if you've been wanting to get some sniper training, this is about as good of a "taste" of it as you'll get anywhere! Make the commitment, spend the money, TELL YOUR FRIENDS, and do the deed. Also, take a look at the prize list -- it's still growing. Chances are very good that you won't come home empty handed... and SIX of you are coming home with trophies!!! What part of "sign up" don't you folks understand? And if you've got a police department nearby, as I'm sure you do, call or visit them and tell them about the Hathcock charity shoot. Got a Reserve or Guard unit in your area? Tell them. Hand out applications (screenprint them from our site). Got a gun shop close by? Ask if you can leave a stack of applications on their sales counter, and maybe put up a flyer on their bulletin board if they have one.
If you don't make it to this shoot, lads, you're going to regret
it.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 03:17:02 (EDT)
"Built to exceed USMC specifications, the Chandler Sniper Rifle is the most accurate long-range sniper system SOF has ever tested."
Peter G. Kokalis
S.O.F. magazine
May, 1998 issue (page 36)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 05:21:56 (EDT)
The 92 is a very fine weapon, if it fits your hand. I find the Berreta Couger a little more comfortable as its grip closely matches the ergonomically correct CZ-75 type grip.
Bill's comment about the can of worms is VERY true as many people
are unecessarily caliber conscious and always assume the .45 rules. But
it only rules if you can be accurate, comfortable and fast with it. The
point? Shoot what works for you, not what chest thumping afficianados or
gun magazines tell you is best. Both the 9mm and .40 will get the job done
as effectively as their big slow brother. The can of worms issue resides
only in the minds of those unwilling to consider options other than their
favorites. Practice is the real issue with any handgun. You can not shoot
effectively if you only play with your chosen tool a few times a year.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 09:59:32 (EDT)
I am looking for information on the following military match cartridges: M72; M118; M852; and M118 LR. I'm also looking for information on the 173 gr. International Match bullet of 1956, used in the T275E1 and -E2, and the 173 gr. bullet used in the T275E3 and -E4.
Bain
P.S. Bill, the USP is my favorite pistol too. The HP is more accurate,
the 1911s more fun, but no pistol has as many good features as the USP.
Too bad the company that makes it is so uptight!
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 12:24:33 (EDT)
In reality, Scott is right. But he told only part of the story. You've got to be able to hit the target, but tactics are CRITICAL. If you can make the hit and execute the tactics quickly and efficiently, you'll win the fight. I've also learned that agressiveness is extrememly important.
And I thought the US gov't sucked. Canada must be an AWFUL place to live for shooting enthusiasts.
Russ; What kind of accuracy do the Chandlers claim for their sniper
rifle? Texas Brigade Armory claims 1/4 MOA at 100 yards after their M40
properly broken in. They use a Hart barrel.
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 13:01:00 (EDT)
To the editors:
Word wrap in the comments box was a huge improvement, so was the
emporium deal. This site is great.
John Boy <jpg3860@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Tallahassee, Fl USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 15:20:33 (EDT)
Ross Seyfried's ultra long range rifle cal: 30/416 Rigby imp.
The rifle has a prototype Ultra Light Arms 40 single shot action, 34" Douglas stainless .30cal BR barrel with 1-10" twist, straight (no taper) 1.4" thick. Kevlar light BR-type stock painted as the US flag. The rifle was topped by a Leupold M4-16X.
Ross made cases using Norma 416 Rigby brass necked down in 4 steps and fireformed to a 40 deg. shoulder.
Ross fired 200gr and 220gr Sierra MK's with at the time, 1991, alvailable and "unalvailable" .50BMG powders.
Some data:
200gr Sierra MK, 116gr H5010/MV=3550fps, 127gr WC872/MV=3650fps.
220gr Sierra MK, 124gr WC872/MV=3470fps.
BTW I'm now a ex-sniper. I got my discharge today from the National
Guard after 18 years service. Goodbye H&K G3.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 17:21:27 (EDT)
Does anyone else here have days when they couldn't shoot a decent
group if there life depended on it or is it just me?
John Boy <jpg3860@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Tallahassee, Fl. USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 17:21:44 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 17:58:31 (EDT)
Any Canadian readers are strongly advised to renew their FACs before I say again before 1 Oct 98. The rules change then and will be much more hassle (if that is possible).
TorF from Norway: good luck "on the outside". Eighteen years reserve service is no small accomplishment. Time to stay in bed late on weekends, grow your hair long and say all those rude things about your government you have kept inside!
You've mentioned an uncle's WWII service. In 1940 an old Finn I know took his Moisin Nagant from behind the kitchen door, shot two Russians in his backyard and then reported for military service. Leo doesn't say much about his time either.
You are ignoring the most famous one-shot-kill in all of Norwegian history. In 1940 when the German invasion fleet sailed into Oslo harbour, the shore artillery battery fired one shot that hit the battleship's magazine taking about 1000 sailors to the bottom. No general, no staff, no intimidation ship - a few weeks of "peace" before the paratroopers attacked.
You also mentioned tens of thousands of 300m UIT shooters in Scandinavia. Are there any long ranges in Norway to shoot Bisley style 1000yd target matches? There is a circuit of target matches in the English-speaking countries mostly, with a few German and French teams. Most of your Sauers have short barrels, don't they? What about sight adjustments, could you get 45 minutes of elevation? The Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, which has a webpage, would be glad to host any visiting Scandinavian teams.
Any target shooters in Western Canada in the group?
I have an article from the Canadian infantry magazine regarding the Canadian Elcan C79 sight, if anyone is interested. Contact my address directly.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 00:21:32 (EDT)
I should take a moment here, perhaps, to tell everyone who does what, here at Sniper Country. We all cross over into several other areas of interest, but primarily the breakout is something like this:
1. As Editor-in-Chief and Tactics Editor, I have the final say on
what is posted to this website in the way of articles and other original
material. I also try to arrange for various reviews of training facilities
and products, and then try to put things together so that either myself
or a member of the staff can do the article.
2. Mr. Bain, our Legal Editor, is a fireball of energy when it comes
to getting hard-to-get information about cutting-edge weapons, training,
ammunition, optics, and any manner of development programs -- both inside
government circles and in private industry, as well as covering the world
"scene" in these areas as well.
3. Mr. Powers, whether he likes it or not, has basically become
our special-purpose optics reviewer, besides of course being our Weapons
Editor. Scott has done a pretty fair amount of competing and has a lot
of trigger time to his credit.
4. Mr. Blosser, besides having an extensive background in medicine,
is also a meticulous Internet researcher. When any of us have a need for
certain information that we don't have the time, or occasionally the inclination,
to find ourselves, Garry is usually given the nod. More often than not,
he achieves positive results in less than 24 hours. He also checks our
many, MANY links on this site, and makes sure that they all work as intended
-- or notifies one of us in the event that one or more links isn't working.
(You see, we really DO try to keep this ENTIRE site "active" and current.)
5. Mr. Ferreira, "our man in South Africa," is responsible for the
Compendium of Terminology as well as a lot of other behind the scenes
taskings as well. He brings a wealth of technical expertise to Sniper
Country, without which we would be in pretty sad shape. Marius was
the driving force in getting us moved from our location on the Prostar
domain to the one we now have, under our own name. Without Marius, a lot
of things we all take for granted here on this website wouldn't exist at
all, let alone work as well as they do.
6. Mr. Williams, our Webmaster, himself a technical wizard, did
all the work in moving the site from Dave Reed's old operation to the Prostar
site, and then again established our current domain. Both times, Jay incurred
out-of-pocket expenses for which we try to keep him reimbursed. (A "nice"
feature of Sniper Country is that we are not a commercial site,
full of ads and "junk." We run this site out of our own pockets, because
we are devoted to making -- and keeping -- this a special place. So if
any of you tend to think, on occasion, that some members of the Sniper
Country Council are a bit "protective" of what we have here, it's because,
literally, we own it.) Jay also has some ideas that could help this
site earn a little money to defray its operating costs (the Amazon book
sales, for one).
Each of us has a LOT more that we do to keep this site running but,
in a nutshell, these are just a few of the contributions we bring to Sniper
Country. I don't think it's bragging, at all, to say that we bring
a wealth of diversified talent and expertise to this website, and hopefully
it shows. You folks seem to appreciate what we do, and your simple "thank
you" comments mean more to us than you could ever imagine.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 02:42:49 (EDT)
Norway has 3 large (for a country with 4.5mill people) shootingassosiations. The smallest is the Norwegian Shooting Union , 60000 members, who handles all the UIT events.
Then comes the Norwegian Hunting and Fishing Union. They got about the same 65000 members. They do a lot of huntingrelated targetshooting with scoped rifles. The Norwegian Champ. Running Target/Moose usually have 5-700 shooters. They also have something called Hunting Fieldtarget. Thats sniping on gametargets.
Over 200000 gets a huntinglisence each year.
The largest by far is the DFS (DCM). It's got 200000 members and 850 shootingranges. Formal 300m targetshooting has different programs than UIT. The 600m ranges are unfortunatly not in use anymore. They shoot a lot of fieldtarget, hipower biathlon, etc. To get an idea about the activity go to www.dfs.no. It's in norwegian ofcourse but heres a quick starter: Terminliste= shootingevents, Bane=300m, felt=fieldtarget, skifelt=hipower biathlon on fieldtargets. "Dato" has the national overview. DFS gets goverment funding and discounts guns and ammo for its members.
In addition we have 80000 National Guard members who have their weapons and ammo at home. (H&K G3, H&K MP5, Glock 17 and sniperrifles). Some special units also have heavier weapons at home. Any National Guard or regular army soldier can shoot at DFS events in a class for the G3.
You can't add these numbers together because there are a lot of "double" members.
After the 1940 unpleasentness we have something called "The order
on the wall". It simply states "If something happens, start shooting! Don't
stop if you are not 100% sure it is your goverment that orders a seasefire.
If you don't fight you will be prosecuted!" This hangs on a wall in every
military building.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 04:39:40 (EDT)
After the 1992 unpleasantness we have something called "the pot-smoking,
draft-dodging, womanizing, gun-grabbing bastard in the White House." He
simply states "If something happens, lay down your guns! Don't use a gun
for self-defense or your government will seize it. If you fight you will
be prosecuted." He hangs over our heads like a dark cloud.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 05:52:20 (EDT)
My other dislike, if you can call it that, for the 1911, is the fact that you have to do a good bit of aftermaket work on them to bring them up to snuff. And GOD forbid if you happen to be left handed. Todays modern designs are far more user friendly in stock out of box condition. Nor does the 1911 doesn't seem to be the gun for those on a limited budget. Except for the new kimber version, you could easily spend the price of the initial purchase on modifying the 1911 to bring it up to snuff. Can of worms here we come!!!
By practice, I actually meant training and range time. Expecting to stop a hold up in a mall parking lot with out any formal trainging simply puts one on the same level as the perpetrator. A dummy with gun. I recently got into IDPA shooting and took a tactical handgun course. The improvement in my shooting skill can not be belived until seen. I would not have thought anyone could place 6 shots center mass into a 7 yard target in under two seconds. With training it has become common place. The point kiddies? Get the training. You can only benefit!
.45 as all time great? Compared to what? This is a big claim. Modern
hollow point design has closed the gap between the .45, 9mm, 10mm, .40
S&W. They all work, and work well as long as you can handle the firearm
in question. A .45 cal gun in a carry friendly weight is never as controllable
as its smaller cousins. Something to think about when researching what
gun to carry. Sorry for the length or all this. I must have had my wheaties
this morning!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 14:00:16 (EDT)
There has been some discussion of the Norwegian Resistance on this list. If any of you ever find yourselves in Oslo, you simply MUST go visit the resistance museum. It is full of the stories that Torf's uncle was uncomfortable discussing. I was there two summers ago and was inspired by the, outside Norway, largely untold story. Great accounts of Norwegian heroism and Nazi atrocities.
Great site, keep up the good work!
Now, closer to on-topic:
Does anyone know of a removeable front site for a Colt Sporter? I've seen one on a non-Colt AR-15 that was similar in design to the removable handle on my flat-top. Any ideas?
Thanks
JH
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 16:37:40 (EDT)
I am not nearly as knowlegable in this field as most of the people who read this page are, I am just relating some of the things I've read about the pins and a little bit of my own inductions about the pins. I'm sure there are many who would disagree with me.
############################
You guys wanna hear a story that will give you a good laugh at my
expense? Today I went to the range to try a new 24" telescopic Harris bipod
I got for $35, brand new.(Good deal huh?, the guy didn't know what he had.)
Any way I was leaning against a post and I fired about 15 rounds, and did
very well. I decided to see what I could do without leaning against a post.
I concentrated hard on the target(empty soda can) and pulled the trigger.
The rifle shot back and hit my forehead. It didn't hurt all that much,
probably because I was worried about my zero being thrown off. I chambered
the next round and was sighting down the scope when I noticed something
dribble down my nose. I knew it was to cool to be sweat so I touched my
nose and saw it was, you guessed it, blood. I now have a cresent shaped
cut on the bridge between my nose and right eye. Luckily there was noone
around to see this. Now I just gotta think of a good lie to tell my shooting
buddies when they ask about the bandaid on my head.
Pretty stupid huh? Oh and if you're wondering... I missed the soda
can. :(
John Boy <jpg3860@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Tallahassee, Fl. USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 21:39:58 (EDT)
Thanks for the info last summer on the 110 fp. I purchased one in
August and have been having a great time with it. I have
one small problem in that I can't seem to get the trigger pull weight
below 5 - 5.5 pounds. I followed the instructions in
the article posted here, but even with the trigger spring screw
backed off all the way the trigger pull is still 5+ pounds.
Any advice would be appreciated. Also I have some moly coated Hornady
168 gr match bullets on order. Does anyone have a good
load they would suggest?
J. Wells <jtwells@juno.com>
sc USA - Saturday, April 18, 1998 at 23:46:49 (EDT)
Scott Powers will tell you, by way of testimony, how light I've gotten my Savage triggers -- just by following those exact instructions that I posted here for other Savage owners to take advantage of. No less than Ron Coburn, CEO of Savage Arms, was impressed with how light yet reliable (i.e., the safety still works) I have made my triggers. So, consider rereading the Savage trigger instructions and tackling it again.
My project rifle, which is built on a Savage single-shot action, is going to get the "supreme" trigger job (performed by me). Some time ago, I picked up a set of small files, and I'm going to use one to file a perpendicular notch in the set screw that the long wire (spring) "locks" into. This will allow me to get the trigger even lighter.
Also, and this is not my recommendation (it's just something for you to reflect on), you can add a trigger shoe. Installed over your trigger, a trigger shoe will give you a wider surface with a better "feel" when you pull the trigger. (I could go into an oration on physics, but I won't.) Essentially, you're spreading the force that you're exerting to pull the trigger over a larger surface, making it a bit easier to pull the trigger. I cannot recommend adding a trigger shoe (I have a source if you want one but can't find one), rather, it's an individual choice. The "con" of using a trigger shoe, according to "the experts," is that they can come off at the wrong time, can be prone to snagging (especially if the sides extend beyond the width of the trigger guard), and in general can make for an unsafe condition.
Ron Coburn told me that Savage is going to wider triggers on its magnum rifles. With my large hands and long fingers, the trigger shoe on my Savage 110FP Tactical (just added this last year) gives me a better "feel." I'd already gotten the trigger pretty light (most people can't believe how light the trigger is -- and that the safety still works), but I wanted a little extra advantage. For me, adding a trigger shoe was a good choice; I wish I'd have installed one a long time ago.
As another option, read the Sniper Country review on Action
Magic II (I think that's the correct name of the product). Used in
conjunction with a good trigger job, this stuff can really lighten a trigger
pull. It's available from Brownells.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 19, 1998 at 02:01:39 (EDT)
Sauer 200STR accuracy.
The norwegian gunmagazine "Vapenjournalen" do a lot of tests. In 1994 they tested .308 matchbullets in a .308win Sauer. The Sauer had 4 barrels and each barrel had 4 5-shot groups put trough it. The load used for all bulletweights was 43gr VV N140, Rem 9.5 primer, Lapua cases, loaded on a Dillon 550 with Bonanza necksizer and seatingdie. The rifle was topped with a B&L 6-24 scope.
Groups were shot at 200m/220yds. This is average for 16 5-shot groups: (1" = 25.4mm)
Sierra MK 150gr: 39.3mm
Sierra PM 155gr: 44.8mm
Sierra MK 168gr: 27.5mm
Lapua LB 150gr: 44.5mm
Lapua LB 170gr: 38.3mm
Lapua SC 168gr: 30.8mm
Lapua SC 186gr: 29.8mm
HornadyIM 168gr: 33.5mm
HornadyIM 190gr: 48.5mm
Nosler HP 168gr: 32.8mm
Speer GM 168gr: 61.3mm
Speer GM 190gr: 38.3mm
One of the barrels shot fantastic with Sierra 168gr, 13mm average for 4 5-shot groups. Sierra MK 180gr was tested only in one barrel with 21mm average for 4 5-shot groups.
The same rifle has also been tested in 6.5X55.
Norma Diamondline factoryammo, 130gr molycoated VLD, MV=2600fps: 23mm in 7 5-shot goups.
Handloads:
Lapua 107gr HPBT(GB464), 41gr VV N140, MV=880ms. Average for 5 5-shot groups: 20mm.
Lapua 140gr HPBT(GB458), 45gr NC96, MV=2600fps, Average for 4 5-shot groups: 23mm.
Sierrabullets has similar performance.
All groups are shot at 200m/220yds. 1" = 25.4mm
Remember this is not specially tuned BR ammo. This ammo is shot by the thousands.
The molycoated bullets in 6.5mm at 2600fps has increased useable barrellife to 8000 rounds. Barrellife for .308 are 8-12000 rounds.
I guess you can order a Sauer 200 STR at your local SIG-Sauer handgundealer. The only thing you need to do extra is a glassbeddingjob by a competent gunsmith.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, April 19, 1998 at 13:39:49 (EDT)
Since tracking is an important skill for the sniper, I will pass
along a helpful trick I learned from a US Border Patrol Agent (the
USBS
has an EXCELLENT tracking school).
Take a stick with two rubber bands on the end. Measure the length
of
your marks footprints (i.e. stride)and mark using the end of your
tracking
stick and one rubber band.
Now measure the length of the marks footprint and mark it on your
stick using
the first rubber band already attached at the toe, and the second
rubber band
closer to your body at the heel.
When your tracking stick is finished, you simply use the two rubber
bands to measure
the length of the print, helping to assure it is your marks, and
as you measure the
print, the remainder of the stick, which will point in the general
direction of travel,
since its lined up with the print, and measured out your marks average
stride, reducing
your time to locate the next set of prints.
The stick saves time and effort with a little practice.
Although no net artist, I have tried to illustrate it below.
The capital "I's" represent your stick. The "R's" are the rubber
bands
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
R(print)R(------------------stride---------------)
JEFF
JEFF <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA(leads the way) - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 12:42:11 (EDT)
That said, we are very strongly pro-Constitution, pro-individual rights, pro-liberty, and pro-firearm. Some within the L.E. community don't feel as we do on these issues, especially with regard to private ownership of firearms. That is terribly unfortunate.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 18:48:28 (EDT)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 19:26:15 (EDT)
My #1 hunting rifle is a .300 Win Mag bolt for deer here in Saskatchewan. I normally load with Partition or Ballistic tips. I am a meat hunter and have yet to lose a deer hit in the rib cage. Average body weight 100lbs. But I lost an antelope when a 150 (155?) gr Barnes X punched right through. I also carry a 30-06 Remington gas-auto for elk in the heavy forest.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Sask Canada - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 21:05:52 (EDT)
Thanks for the response regarding the 110fp trigger. I went over the instructions carefully again but still ended up at about 5 lbs pull. I went so far as to remove the trigger spring completely (just as a test) and still measured right at 4 lbs. It seems that just the pressure of the sear is accounting for the relatively heavy pull. I'm shooting 3/8" to 3/4" 3 shot groups at 100 yards, so I think for the time being I'll leave well enough alone. Any word on the timney trigger for the 110? Also if anyone has had any experience with the 168 gr moly coated match bullets by Hornady I'd be interested in hearing. Thanks again.
J Wells <jtwells@juno.com>
USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 23:04:45 (EDT)
P.S. any hints or advice to help my shooting would be greatly appriceated
Thanx
c/CMSgt. Keith Kacmar AFJROTC <Kacmar@thevine.net>
Saugus, CA USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 00:30:42 (EDT)
Terry: The use of match grade projectiles on deer is not recommended.
Yes, they will work, but you are better served by a good expanding projectile.
The Match rounds like the 155 and 168 will not expand reliably, if at all,
and have been known to simply vaporize when contacting solid bone like
a deer's neck vertebrae. In the case I am thinking of the deer dropped
in its tracks but had the shooter missed the bone and nerve trunk, the
bullet might simply have passed through the neck muscle resulting in little
damage, in terms of lethality. Worst case is a gut shot deer. The deer
will run many miles before succoming to its injuries. Stick with properly
designed hunting loads, slightly heavy for caliber. The reduction in accuracy
of the hunting load will mean little in terms of on-target performance.
You want reliable expansion and trauma. The match load will either punch
through with little deformation, or come apart. Neither of these actions
are desirable for instantly dropping an animal. They tend to exhibit a
greater will to drive-on than most humans. Shoot a deer with a .22 rim
fire and he'll run you to the next county. Shoot a human with the same,
and depending on his mind set, he may just drop in his tracks, crying for
mama.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 11:00:12 (EDT)
Steve <sgriff@apci.net>
Belleville, IL USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 17:55:09 (EDT)
To Randy: McMillan probably makes their A-2 Tactical available in a version that would accommodate your Ruger (if they can make one for my Savage 110FP Tactical, they can make one for your Model 77). Depending on the options you want, base prices will start around $230. I just received my A-2 Tactical back from them, after having a saddle-type cheek piece installed (I prefer it over the cut-out type). They did a nice job of installing it, and the cost was $90 including labor.
To Terry: Others have sufficiently addressed usage of Match Kings on deer, so I won't. However, I'd also add that while they occasionally work well with 1:10" twists, 155-grain Palma bullets usually prefer a slower twist (if memory serves, 1:13" -- Scott, who shoots highpower, might be able confirm this). Still, one box is probably worth trying in your rifle for target shooting. I should add, by the way, that Game Kings are quite accurate and shoot MOA out of my Savage 110FP Tactical with the load I use (AA 2520, right from the Sierra manual).
To Steve: Having flown "Space A" out of and into Scott AFB, I've been to Belleville on a few occasions. Have you got any special places to go for some of those big southern Illinois deer? (Hint, hint.)
To Mike: A fellow prairie dogger, eh? It doesn't look like I'll make it this year (I've got the "Carlos charity" and a black bear hunt in Canada next month, and I'm working on reviewing another shooting school for Sniper Country sometime this year), but perhaps we could go doggin' next year. Oh, I agree with you about using a muzzle brake for sensing shots on prairie dogs, which is why I put one on my .22-250 Ackley Improved (Savage 112BVSS). My new ArmaLite Action Master came with a muzzle brake already installed and, with the B&L Elite 4000 6-24x I have mounted on it, I should be able to see the results of every shot. I can't wait to take a few "family portraits" on my next prairie dog excursion!
To J. Wells: If you want to go offline about your trigger, drop me
an E-mail. (My computer is in the shop, so I won't be getting back to you
right away.)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 01:37:25 (EDT)
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Sask Canada - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 20:54:03 (EDT)
Sorry for the long post, but I had a lot of questions, and I've never
been known to be anything be long-winded.
Thanks
Tim Baird <tbaird@telegroup.com>
Fairfield, IA USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 03:06:27 (EDT)
As far as a good scope for varmints. The fixed 10x is not ideal, but is acceptable to a point. The problem becomes one of not being able to SEE the target once you start reaching out there. P-dogs and hogs get to looking pretty small once you go beyond 300-400 yards with a fixed scope. A 6.5x24 is better suited for this activity. For long range tactical shooting, your set up sounds fine. Steel life size sillouettes are a lot easier to hit and see than p-dogs! Last thing, if you plan on become a prison sharp shooter, you are going to want a new scope. The 10x is to much power. You will want a good 3.5-10x variable so you can dial down and get your all important field of view back. If you ever happen to need to convince some malcontent he needs to stop what he is doing, trying to follow him at 10x from 50 yards, well, sucks!
Tim: An easier method to check twist. Mark your rod. Slide into bore. Measure the distance it took the mark to make one full rotation. No math involved. Just lay a ruler next to the rod as you slide it in.
If your rifle is 1:9 it will love the 69gr MK. You will be able to shoot 50 to 75 grain projectiles with reasonable accuracy with the 1:9. The slower twists, say 1:12 or 1:14 will work better with the smaller 40 to 55 grain bullets, but 1:9 is the best compromise I have found so far, giving you the broadest range of usable rounds. For varmints, you might try the 55 grain Sierra HPBT. It has a large very Hollow Point and PMC makes a load with it. Very accurate in my AR. For deer I can not recommend a load. I feel that the .223 is on the limit of usability for this application. I know guys use it at close range, but it all comes down to shot placement. It is critical with these small projectiles. No room for error. For the average guy, I’d say that .243 is the limit. If you must use the .223, look for the best bullet you can afford. Heaviest too.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 09:23:34 (EDT)
If the bore does have some remnants of parkerizing in it, what is
the best way to get it out before breaking in the barrel?
Greg <tastee@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 12:37:20 (EDT)
Dan Urbach <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Fairbanks, ak USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 17:12:56 (EDT)
As you know, we who operate this site do so out of our own pockets and do not allow ourselves or the site to be captured by manufacturers. We want to remain objective in our assessments. That said, I must tell you that Andy Webber is an outstanding, honorable man whose decency and integrety are matched only by the quality and attention to detail of his work.
I spent well over a year researching the right bolt gun to get and wanted one that remained as true as possible to the U.S. Army's M24 SWS. I looked at every major custom manufacturer's offerings and even considered buying one of the commercially available, Remington-produced M24s for sale 2 years ago (at substantially more than the cost of Andy's work). When I stumbled accross Andy's site, I knew I'd found the right place. I was right. The rifle I received is simply outstanding. You can read X-Ring's review of the rifle at our "In Review" section. (Yeah, I'm a hell of a guy; I let him shoot the M24 because he claims to be left-handed and so couldn't shoot my M21.)
Andy's one weakness is that his is a one-man operation, though he has significant assistance from his lovely wife. Don't expect to get in a rifle from him overnight. In fact, it may take upwards of 6 months to recieve one of his works of art. The acme of quality and precision isn't cheap and it isn't quick. It is, however, worth waiting for. Oh, and yes, I've become friends of the Webbers, have met them personally at the SHOT Show, converse with them by phone and e-mail from time to time, have assisted them when possible on government contracting in the U.S. (the Webbers are Canadians), and think the world of them.
In a market filled with increasingly more hucksters seeking to capitalize on the long-range boom, the Webbers stand in sharp contrast. If you are looking for serious accuracy and are willing to spend what it takes, Andy Webber will meet or exceed your expectations.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 18:19:18 (EDT)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 22:58:55 (EDT)
In the same issue, there's an article (page nine) about the Remington SR8 in .338 Lapua Magnum, within which there is a nice discussion of .338 bullets (of some interest to yours truly, who is building a .338/378 Weatherby Magnum). The .338 (bullet) has a lot going for it in a sniper role, when assembled into a suitable cartridge.
There's also a nice piece by Rod Ryan, president of Storm Mountain Training Center on what the proper dialogue between a sniper and an observer should be like.
And, "Captain S" has a nice article on range estimation that, at a glance, appears to be worth a read.
Several other items are of interest, too, but I won't list them all.
You should be subscribing to the magazine.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 04:17:02 (EDT)
Dan: The Tasco Catalog # placed next to the scope in the photo is
a misprint and the numbers listed in the column are misleading. If memeory
serves, the actual SS10x42M is not shown in the catalog. The military looking
scope sitting next to the big dial scope is the SS10x42 (note the missing
"M"). The scope with the large side ring focus, as shown, again if memory
serves, is a varmint scope and quite large. A variable 8-40x56mm. The sniper
scopes are equal in size to the B&L tactical or Leupold Mk4 M1. Dealer
list for the SS10x42 is around $350 and for the SS10x42M is $430. You must
expect to pay $430 to $550 repsectivly retail, unless you can cut a deal.
Ask you dealer to check out Jerry's Sport Center in PA. 1-800-234-2612.
I know for a fact that they have these scopes in stock as well as just
about every other optic brand you could ask for. Looking at the listing
of scopes, Tasco has NO scope for over $500 dealer. That big ugly scope
with the side wheel tractor tire lists for only $300+ so where ever you
are getting the prices from is giving you some bad dope. This help?
Scott
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 11:47:00 (EDT)
My point is, you can not. The watch idea is good for limited data, as in hunting deer at short to medium range, but for the kind of precision shooting necessary in long range sniping, you need more data than that little watch can hold and you need it fast. While taping dope to the stock may look funny to you, it, in addition to having the data handy in your log book, is about the only way to quickly access the dope you need as the conditions change. I could care less about what the rifle looks like, as long as it is tactical. This is not a bloody beauty contest for prima donnas.
The data card I am currently relying on is reduced to about the size
of a business card, is unobtrusive and has data for every three mph from
100 to 1000 yards. It also lists data for half and full value winds, AND
gives me the corrections in MOA or inches. Better yet, it's non-existant
battery can not fail. Come back when you develop a mil-spec hand held computer
with all that data that can be adjsuted for temperature and altitude, AND
give me everything I need at a glance. Then maybe your otherwise neat idea
will make the cut. But saying you think taping dope to a stock looks bad
is just plain silly. It is effective, fast, and it don't break.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 12:30:55 (EDT)
Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Fairbanks, AK USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 14:20:22 (EDT)
Bill: Like the idea for alternative uses of the Hornady manual. Scott could've used it last year at SMTC when we were on a stalk and the MREs didn't plug him up as advertised. ;-) Fortunately for him, my log book (no pun intended) had detacheable sheets. Still, the paper didn't have the kind of softness he was used to.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 15:39:22 (EDT)
Try wind speed times range in hundreds divided by 10 for MOA corrections for 168gr. This works quite well! Steve, if you can't tell the difference between a 7.5 and 10 mile an hour wind, I advise against shooting further than 500 meters to save frustration factor. that 2.5 mph difference is worth about the width of the human body or 19 inches with the jump from 5 to 10 mph is worth 32 inches at 800 meters! Ask our students who just spent the day with only a couple of hits on an FBI target at 800 out of 20 rounds! The wind difference was a full to no value 4 to 7 mph from about 8 o'clock to 3 o'clock. When the target was exposed they had 20 seconds to engage. Neither the chart nor the watch will work under these circumstances. You must be able to see the wind at various distances and compute dominate wind then add or subtrate the junk in between. This is why, sometimes, the bullet seems to go up wind on what you thought was a good wind call. By the way the problem is worst at 1000 when a 1 mph wind change is good for 10 inches. This is always fun and a real ego buster!
Check the formula against the sierra reloading manual and you will see that the difference is always less than what a shooter can shoot within for any given range.
Have fun on the range! All ideas are worth a try. Just remember that
what works for one does not work for all!
Rick <RBowcher>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 22:08:38 (EDT)
Yes the card is small, about 3x5 maybe less. It is readable, but not obstrusive. What set me off was the sacralige comment. A tactical rifle is not a $15000 Purdy and need not be kept pretty. Just the opposite. The card is just there to supplement your training and it helps a lot. Eventually you start to recall the key data but these so called cheat sheets really come in handy.
By the way, I wasn't kidding about wanting to see manufactored a small electronic data base similar in size to a handheld GPS. With a touch pad listing range and wind, you could really get your dope fast. Still, it would have to be troop proof. They tend to break stuff at the most awkward of times. Remind me to tell you all about how my "A" driver trashed a HMMWV in an open wheat field. Amazing.
To the evil Mr. Bain. Wait till you see what I slip into your data book this year. Trust me old pal, I WON'T remove the page first this time!
Dan, you need to get someone in the 48 to order you one of the Tasco
scopes and ship direct. Sounds like they really gouge you up there. My
father in law was a logger and tells horror stories of what he had to pay
to feed the family. I guess gun stuff is a lot worse! As far as seeing
one, all I can tell you is that it is a decent scope, properly sized, and
of decent clarity and resolution, for the price. A friend just bought the
SS10x42 at just above dealer ($370) and was thrilled with it. You usually
can not even get mil-dots in that price range.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 22:41:53 (EDT)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Saturday, April 25, 1998 at 20:49:30 (EDT)
I don't know about not talking about it but it is something that has to be practiced. I cheat because I spend about 7 to 10 hours a day, 200+ days a year on the range doping either my wind for shooting or my students. During the course I'm either correcting them or checking them for accuracy.
A quick few hints that I give my students. Never read wind in one location! Always keep checking at multiple locations. Watch ALL indicators, mirage, grass, trees, shrubbery, what ever gives you speed and value. Note I did not say flags. The course I teach in makes it difficult to say time out while flags are spaced down range. Read wind from the gut, don't second guess yourself. The first read is usually the correct read and if not than your brain will process it to be correct next time. Make call, read trace and immediately look at wind indicators to see if the wind changed during the shot. Look away from wind indicators between shots or you will expect to see a specific speed indicator, and thus you will see that indicator whether it is right or not, brains are funny things about seeing what is expected. Look at mirage for speed and thickness. This lets you know when value is 70%, 50%, 20%, etc.
Calculate speed, value, do math, fire shot. Watch for new indicators, recalculate, etc, etc, etc. Mainly it is a matter of practice. The main advantage that we have is that we work in two man teams and the observer tells the shooter where to aim for corrections. That the shooter concentrates on the shot while the observer does all the mind numbing math. Needless to say the senior sniper (most experienced) is the observer.
Just to admit to you and Scott, we carry cheat sheets, we do not tape them to the weapon, they are kept with the observer and used when brain cramp causes a loss of math skills. This is a common happening while individuals are attempting to end the day for you and you are triing not to have the day end.
Go to the range and fire with weapon on a no wind zero. Watch the wind, estimate where the group will go due to wind, fire a five round group. Check your estimate, practice this and you will be amazed how accurate you will become!
Main thing is to have fun!!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 00:42:53 (EDT)
Since I'm working part-time for ArmaLite, besides my regular job (not to mention I'm ArmaLIte's webmaster), I'll have to recommend an ArmaLite rifle. Seriously though, I just bought one, I'm no richer than most of you guys, and they're just good rifles. The guys in the shop "care," and I think you get a good product for your money. And yes, I also thought this way before I worked for ArmaLite.
(By the way, thanks for the kind words about our website.)
To Doug: Bardstown? BARDSTOWN??? Heck, Doug, I've been through Bardstown more times than I can remember. Used to use Bardstown Cleaners to get my uniforms done when I was at FT Knox, and bought a Chinese air rifle from that place in town (can't remember the name just at the moment) that sells them. Thanks for writing, good to hear from you.
To Rick: Hey, do you guys ever run any Sniper Employment Officer
courses (per Thomas Blahnik's article True Bravery on our Articles
and Commentary page)? I'd sure love to "persuade" my Reserve unit to send
me to this course.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 02:30:02 (EDT)
To Grasshopper: I was just curious if you were planning on attending
the NRA highpower state championships in Colinga May 2nd?
keep em in the x-ring yall
c/CMSgt. Keith Kacmar AFJROTC <Kacmar@thevine.com>
Saugus, CA USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 02:59:01 (EDT)
The above URL is a timely (9 Apr 98) article by Dan Lilja for me,
since I'm building a rifle in the same chambering.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 04:07:24 (EDT)
MSG Boucher:
Thanks for the tip on learning wind by practicing with a no wind
zero and shooting groups to verify your read. Don't know why I'd
never thought of that before, but its a great idea.
Jeff <dog2197@aol.com>
VT USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 13:09:27 (EDT)
I gotta throw in my 2cents on this logbook issue.
I think that data cards on a rifle are a camoflauge violation,
however, believe that a logbook and data book are just as much
a part of a snipers uniform/equipment as his scope and ammo (well,
ok, maybe not the ammo).
The formulas and math after about 600 meters are such that I, being
a former grunt need reference material. And I havent even started
to
think about all the other considerations which I can't committ to
memory.
Things like performance of different lots of ammo, temperature and
elevation,
humidity, etc. etc.
Of course, there are situations when time is of the essence
and although Ive got my own SOPs for that, I wont get into it.
However, as a sniper, I generally fight on my terms. My time and
place of choice, therefore, have time to prepare. If not, thank
god
for my buddy with an M203, tacair and pre planned target reference
points, and above all..AC-130s.
I also need those books for my reporting formats which for a sniper
should go far beyond SALUTE and OCOKA. I carry them in a safe pocket
and treat them as securely as I would an SOI. My logbooks and databooks
are also a must for debriefings, which although mine were often
somewhat
neglected by the chain of command at first, became routine when
they
learned how valuable that info can be to an operation.
And as someone pointed out earlier, its one thing to do a calculation
on the
rifle range, and entirely another when someone who will kill you
is on the other
side. Particullarly if rounds have been fired, I find it much more
efficient,
and a confidence builder to know that I have a simple reference
to do the thinking
for me.
Then of course, like I said earlier, I was infantry, and maybe not
as smart as you
other MOSs (laugh).
Jeff
Jeff <dog2197@aol.com>
VT USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 13:33:34 (EDT)
We used to run Employment classes on request. However, since so many have decided that they are "experts" on everything in the military, the demand has all but ceased to exist. EMail me your guard unit and what you are looking for in the way of a course and I'll see what happens.
Jeff -- You are absolutely right about the log books. Our students are required to write down every shot fired with all pertinent data. The book is mandantory for pre-mission planning. However, we do not carry the complete book in on a mission due to the bulk of the book. We extract the pertinent data required and put them on cheat sheets. The sheets are laminated and kept with the observer. This lowers bulk and, heaven forbid, lost books. We do not tape them to our rifle stocks since the observer tells the shooter where to aim and this would be awkward for the shooter to see once in position where the wrong move would give his position away.
Enough rambling for now. Guys use what works for you!! Remember, there are NO absolute rights in this game, only very absolute wrongs, and they can kill you!
Have a safe one guys!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EDT)
It is an ART system for an M-14 with a cam system for the balistics
of the round for the time, circa vietnam, that changes the angle of the
scope at the rear mount.
It has seen a bit of abuse and I was wondering if any one knew of
any one that would refurbish it to better condition or does anyone know
if Redfield does any of that sort of thing yet. It has the Redfield 3-9
scope mounted on the system.
thanks in advance.
LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
Mi USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 23:50:36 (EDT)
If you have a Vietnam era ART and base, that's a real find. If I were you, I'd be talking to some of the published sniping authors like Peter Senich and Maj John Plaster. Amongst their acquaintances I'm sure they have friends who either would re-balance your wallet or at least give you a fair market value estimate. As for repairs, changing anything on some collectibles is like touching up the Mona Lisa with a paint roller. I'd suggest you leave it intact until you are really sure it is not valuable. If it is genuine, leave it alone and therefore representive of actual wear and tear. But you own what you own, and this is only the opinion of a guy who hangs out in museums and buys smart guy's books.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 00:18:05 (EDT)
Dope taped to stock: Yes, it is a camo violation if done in white paper! I recall during the course at SMTC, looking at my buddy and wondering what that erie glow was emintating form his rifle. It was 9 p.m., overcast, and as black as could be, yet there was enough ambient light to cause some reflection. Not good. If you have to use the stock dope, use a dull paper in laminate and camo tape over it till you need it. We relied more on the data in the log book and used the stock data only as back up. It is there if and when you need it. Arhcers tape when placed over the data card hides it effectively. Guess I just like a hard copy available at all times. Brain not so good anymore.
Rick made a good point though - the observers has the dope handy so the shooter does not need to have it in front of him at all times. It is a back up more than anything. Unless you happen to be one of the unlucky Law Enforcement types whose command doesn't see fit to give you a partner. I hear that happens a lot.
Rick and Steve also made good points about the so-called zone. Be
it High power or practicing long range tacitcal shooting, the mind is pretty
neat in how it interprets data. T-LAR actually works to some extent - at
least on good days! When going through the course at SMTC I can not tell
you how often I looked at the indicators, shrugged and said "looks to be
7 mph", shot and got a center hit. You are not guessing. Your brain is
just taking in all the relevant data with out you realizing it. More than
anything, it is a matter of repetitive, endless practice.
Scott <xring@vicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 08:53:26 (EDT)
Tactical Shooter Magazine
222 McKee Street
Manchester, Connecticut 06040
Phone: (860) 645-8776 | FAX (860) 643-8215
http://www.tacticalshooter.com
Anything else?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 09:39:02 (EDT)
He agree with Terry on the ART scope. I wouldn't mess with it until I had it looked at by a collector. The ART scope came in various models, ART I, ART II, ART IV, and ART MPC (I think?, Help me out guys if you can remember the Urban/CT model number). The ART I has a single point mount for the M21 and the reticule has two horizontal stadia lines on the verticle crosshair that subtends 30 inches when properly camed to range (top of head to waist of intended victum). This gave a range equal to the power setting. Example 5 power = 500 yards. The scope was zeroed at 300 yards and the cam took care of the rest (supposedly). Problem is cam wear at the high end of the range causes increased inaccuracy at longer ranges. The reticule also has two verticle lines on the horizontal cross hair that subtends 60 inches or 30 inches from crosshair to stadia line when properly camed and was used as a reference for holds for wind and leads for movers. Invented by a Marine by the name of Leatherwood. Since I'm Army (or was) I'll leave the Marine jokes out of this one!
The ART II used a double point mount that required a modified stripper clip attachment. It has two dots on the horizontal crosshair that subtends 60 inches and thick horizontal duplex crosshairs and a thick bottom to the vertical crosshair. The thick area subtends 1 meter when properly camed and corresponds to top of head to groin on the intended victum. This scope is set up in meters. The range cam and scope power could be seperated and after proper caming for range the shooter could max out the power or lower the power as needed for the situation. This scope ws truely hated by most of my peers and we stayed with the ART I after SEA and the grab of all out non-standard SWSs.
The other two ARTs were designed for Urban and camed to a smaller range.
All of these ART scopes are difficult to find except the ART II that is being sold by Leatherwood. As i said I would not use it for plinking until I got an estimate of its worth.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 21:25:45 (EDT)
the whole system was contained in an O.D. green hardcase.
Any further info will be greatly appreciated.
thanks
Gary
LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
Mi USA - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 21:57:55 (EDT)
I was thinking of building my own custom target rifle for use at ranges of 500-1000 yards, and maybe even shorter if I wind up taking it hunting. I have decided to use a 700 action. The exact barrel, stock and trigger are up in the air at this point. I am looking for suggestions on caliber and optics. I have a Ruger in .300 win mag, though I'm not truly impressed with it's accuracy. I really like the .300 round and am wondering if it would be a good choice for a target rifle. Perhaps a 30-06 Improved?
On the same Ruger I have a Swarovski 3-9 that I am just in love with,
but I'm leaning toward a mil-dot scope. I'm looking for suggestions here
as well. Any info, e-mail or comments are welcome an appreciated. I am
new to long range shooting, but I am learning everything I can. Thanks
in advance all!!!
Ralph <m1911@earthlink.net>
Houston, Texas USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 00:40:46 (EDT)
To Jeff: AC 130 gunships? I like how you fight. You remind me of me.
To Doug: Yes, that's it, Compasseco. Yes, I've been to ALL the ranges at FT Knox -- it's like my second home. Gee, I guess you have a rough job, Doug, being issued nice equipment like the PSS. Next time I'm going to be down at Knox I'll let you know, but I think most of my armor days are behind me since I'm on a corps staff (I hate staff work).
To KRS: The link to Tactical Shooter was in my post on Friday, April 24, 1998 at 04:17:02 (EDT).
To Torsten: Think you can get me to the SIG Arms facility while I'm in Germany? I just saw a picture of the R93 sniper rifle. God, I've got to have one of those!
To Ralph: If you're going to build a rifle on a Remington action (good choice, by the way), consider a 28- or 30-inch barrel, with a #7 contour, chambered for .340 Weatherby Magnum. If you compare the ballistics of all the bullets in a .300 Winchester Magnum offering against those available in the .338 caliber range for the .340 Weatherby Magnum, to include the downrange energy of both, you'll like the latter.
By the way -- does anyone know where I can get my hands on a "good"
.338/378 Weatherby Magnum finish reamer? The Clymer reamer I rented from
White Rock Tool & Die was too small in the shoulder and neck, and my
project rifle is on hold until I can get a properly-dimensioned reamer
to open up the chamber in my rifle. And lest someone ask, "yes," the bolt
closed on the "go" gage and did not close on the "no go" gage that I rented
from White Rock at the time I rented the reamer. Ron Bennett, owner of
Clymer, is not giving me a "warm fuzzy" about when the company will make
another reamer in this chambering. If someone could get me in touch with
a proper "within spec" reamer, I'd be willing to send them a bottle of
good whiskey. Am I desperate? Hell yes!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 01:25:26 (EDT)
Data Cards: I have glued a Miniature version inside the Buttler Creek
cap. Its right there to look at.
The other data is taped to the stock by means of a Brother Tape
Printer.
Torsten
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 03:29:07 (EDT)
Triebel Waffenwerkzeuge GmbH
Kemtener Str. 73
D-87600 Kaufbeuren
Germany
I´ll get a catalog and price list for you
Torsten PS hold the Booze, get me a Day on a 1000 Meter +
Range upon my next trip stateside.
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 03:42:10 (EDT)
Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
AK USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 06:23:06 (EDT)
Whether a 30mm tube or a one-inch tube, you get a lapping dowel of the same size, appropriate (and varying) grades of lapping compound, and with the rings lined up correctly you start lapping the rings by sliding the dowel back and forth, using the lapping compound to remove as much metal as is necessary to get a good fit when you lay the scope into the lower ring halves.
You can avoid this operation by getting Burris Signature rings, which have inserts that you can simply adjust to correct for any "problems." If you're feeling rich, you can buy the Jewell rings, which will accomplish the same thing.
Sinclair International (1-219-749-5136) or Brownells (1-515-623-5401)
has lapping kits for this purpose. From experience, Sinclair is very
helpful and patient in explaining how to do things.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 08:18:06 (EDT)
I have seen your Tactical 2 bases but have no experience with them.
These are marketed by Entreprise Arms, correct?
Scott <xring@viocenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 08:28:41 (EDT)
Ralph: Barrels: Hart. They make one of the best. There are equally good barrels out there - but Hart makes a consistently quality product. Caliber: if you are not committed to a magnum, there are several good alternatives that stay above the speed of sound, and therefor stay stable, out to 1000 yards. Even the mild .308 Winchester can do this with the right bullet - 175 grain Sierra MK. If you want blazing speed for caliber, look into the new Lazzaroni line of factory wildcats. The 7.82 Patriot is the same size and caliber as the .308, but holds something like 75 grains of powder! Avoid belted magnums. The belt is useless and makes headspacing a nightmare at times. The newer designs of magnum have no belt and headspace on the shoulder. They also have more efficient shoulder profiles.
Mil-dots will serve you well to 1000 yards with practice. Nice thing about them is that you can use just about any target size and still get with in 15% of the actual range. Stadia type reticles are sometimes harder to work with as they are typically spaced at only ONE subtention, ie: 9" or 36" or somewhere in between. The mil-dot can be a pain to work with sometimes if you can not learn to break it down, but with it you can range targets from a several inches to BIG. It is very versatile for this reason.
Scott
USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 08:47:22 (EDT)
Re: Lapping Scope Rings
One does not lap the rings with the scope itself, but with a one inch rod or tube. I want to discuss some problems with the lapping idea in general. For high accuracy rifles it would probably be best to epoxy bed the scope into the rings, just as we bed a rifle action into the stock. This solves several problems and leaves the scope/rifle action interface in a stress-free condition.
Lapping is used to correct height and alignment problems of the installed rings. These problems can come from the receiver, bases, or the rings themselves. When you are done lapping you should have two rings that are in perfect in alignment in which to lay your scope. The fly in the ointment is this. Is your scope perfectly straight? Probably not. (This may not apply to scopes tubes that are machined in one setup from a piece of bar stock, such as the Leupold Mark series.)
I've put my three Leupold target scopes on V-blocks and dial indicated them near the turrets to check for straightness. They are not straight! (These were not purchased used either.) The turrets are threaded with taps and the tubes with dies, and we can expect the usual results that come from this method. Also, the tubes are not always one inch in diameter, (mine vary from .995 to 1.004), and they aren't round either. The front tube on one of mine is oval by several thousandths. Someone might think that the scope rings have distorted the tubes, but even the forward areas of the front tubes that have never touched a scope ring, still show these irregularities. I may be wrong, but I believe these tubes are made from extrusions. This means that the aluminum billet is forced by tremendous pressure through a die and the material comes out tubular in shape. Not the best way to produce a precision tube.
When checking a rifle's bedding, I use the dial indicator method.
Once, out of curiosity, using the same technique, I loosened and tightened
the Redfield Big Bore rings on my 40-XC with a coin, and was able to see
the barrel rise and fall four or five thousandths inch in relationship
to the stock! Hard to believe isn't it? The scope was actually bending
the action and in turn it was shifting the barrel. I'm a person who never
believes something if it only happens one time, so I repeated the whole
test several times to make sure that what I was seeing, was really true.
Bedding the bottom half of the scope rings eliminated all movement
when the test was repeated.
Epoxy bedding is it is removable and you can add extra to the rear ring if you need more elevation. Once you lap away metal you'll never put it back on.
For those who aren't familiar with the old Redfield Big Bore rings. They slide and lock onto Unertl dovetail POSA bases. There was a Small Bore ring too which used the standard Unertl cup-type base. All these rings were discontinued in the mid 1970's I believe. Too bad, they had a good thing going.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 09:45:01 (EDT)
Has anyone tried Firelapping ?
I have only had guts to do it on an old Anschütz, by dipping a .22 Z into lapping compound and firing about 20 rounds.
Out of a vise the rifle shot as good as before, so it didnt hurt. It may work better on Barrels that have bore diameter problems to start with so the Anschütz was probably not the best idea.
I could try it on my Norinco M305 (M14, I know its a Copy, but mine shoots better) but it has a cromed Barrel and removing part of that would be stupid.
..........
I´ll take my Mauser SR 86 apart and lap the scope rings, I think I´ll use a Tasco for a dowel ( Hehehe ).
Torsten
Torsten <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 12:14:52 (EDT)
Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
AK USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 15:25:20 (EDT)
Bill, Yes I do use a car wax for a release agent. I put about a quarter inch gob of a stiff epoxy into the lower rings and then set the scope down into it paying attention to approx. eye relief position. Squeeze most of the epoxy out. Do the clean up later and you are all set. Some benchresters used to coat the top half of the ring also, but that is probably overkill.
As an aside:
Another thing that we should be kept it mind is the differing coefficients
of thermal expansion between aluminum and steel. Aluminum expands and contracts
twice as much as steel. When we rigidly lock our scopes to our receivers
what happens when the temperature changes? Once again we have stresses
but in a different direction. The scope will be either pulling or pushing
on its scope rings. Not good, when your are counting on that one perfect
shot. This can probably explain why rifles seem to change their zero for
no apparent reason. Perhaps when the stress is great enough the scope tube
suddenly slides a little to relieve pressure and the barrel is now pointing
in a slightly different direction.
Now with the Unertl's suspension system this would not be a problem. Everything floats. I know that conventional wisdom dictates an internally adjustable scope, but the old system as it has its good points too. Let's say for some reason you don't trust your internally adjustable scope anymore. You have no choice but to send it back to the maker and "hope" they do something. With Unertl's exterior adjustments all you have to do is to put a dial indicator on the tube and click away. You can easily check for repeatability, backlash, etc. Everything is in plain sight and there are no mysteries. The one downside is that they are not sealed. But perhaps it is better if they "breathe" a little. Never had one fog up here in Ohio, and we have quite a variety of weather conditions. But then I never hunted varmints in the rain either.
Comments and criticisms welcome.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack.accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 16:43:11 (EDT)
Jason,
Someone on the AR list once asked about the KT-15 Weaver. This was my reply to him.
I can recommend it highly. The adjustable objective goes from 10
yds to infinity and is boldly marked. To adjust from 50 yds. to infinity
only uses about 1/3 turn, so if you put the Butler scope covers on (recommended)
they always stay in a usable position. The tube and turret are one piece
which should make for a straighter setup. When I've put Leupolds on V-blocks
I found out they are not straight (lo 1/3tory). The 1/4 minute clicks are
very usable, nice and crisp with a little audible click sound for confirmation.
When Weaver says 1/4 minute clicks, they mean just that, not more.......
not less (long story). The arrangement of tube lengths and turret position
allow you to put it into the Armalite scope base and still have enough
eye relief on a flat top receiver. The crosshairs are of the Duplex persuasion
and are not too fine for varmint work, nor too coarse to do target work.
At 200 yds the crosshairs will cover up a 3/4
Ron N. <rnosack.accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 20:23:39 (EDT)
At 200 yds the crosshairs will cover up a 3/4
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 20:31:48 (EDT)
At 200 yds the crosshairs will cover up a 3/4" paster, which is what I use for zeroing purposes. I just use the old benchrest trick of putting the paster in one of the 90 degree intersections leaving a slight amount of white showing. The price of the scope is certainly reason-able,........ I could use another one myself. The objective eyepiece has rubber on the end so that if it bumps your glasses it won't chip or scratch them. The optics are pretty good, maybe not quite as flat a field as Leupolds but more than usable. We use 15X to 24X scopes at 1000 yds so the power is adequate for varminting or any other use.
I don't see how you could be disappointed in this scope, as it has
all the good features rolled up into one.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 20:34:10 (EDT)
I bought a Firelapping kit this year for my .308s. (Outlanders will appreciate this - I bought it on my credit card on a day when the exchange rates were the worst in ten years. OUCH!)
I pulled some poorly handloaded 168gr Sierras and carefully coated the bullets with the recommended grit. Read the manual carefully. Read it outloud if English is not your first language. It is written in a folksy common voice. I took the rifles to the range with my cleaning rod and the recommended cleaners. It takes a long time and I'm not yet finished.
I used the Sierras because the manual recommends jacketed bullets for rifles with tight chambers and throats, rather than cast lead.
Supposedly the grit will smooth off the tool marks and roughness. I'll let you know how it works.
As for epoxy bedding rings. I used a 1" aluminum bar and steel filled epoxy. The dark steel colour blends better than others I considered.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@skworkpatico.ca>
Sask Canada - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 20:50:16 (EDT)
Your scope is an ART I Scope. The scope is set for M118 National Match (now Special Ball) ammunition, 173 grains with a muzzel velocity of 2550. The stadia lines are set as in my earlier post, as is zero procedures. The scope is now fairly rare as opposed to the ART II scope. Check the mating surface of the range cam (power collar) and the bedding nipple. On alot of the scopes the cam would wear and a valley would cause ranging problems at ranges beyond 450 to 500 yards. As I mentioned, I would have it appraised by a gun collector before I did anything with the scope.
Russell - My apologies to you over the Guard. I'm used to talking about the guard because all of the SF Reserve slots were done away with and we now only have Guard slots. I'll get up with you on EMail on deployment info.
Scott - Break down the Mil Dots further! You'll stay within 5% error that way and with practice even a lower percent error is attainable.
Keep Shooting guys! Don't give Murphy a place to roost.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 21:53:32 (EDT)
BTW, my contact at ARDEC has sent me a s---load of great stuff on
the M118LR. It's not here yet, but when it gets in, I'll make copies for
you. I'll be doing some pistol training over the weekend with Scott and
will be off-line. I won't be satisfied unless and until the palm of my
hand is sore from the H&K.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 23:40:18 (EDT)
Mr. bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 01:06:17 (EDT)
Hans
BC CANADA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 02:42:24 (EDT)
On bedding scopes: Layne Simpson wrote the best article on mounting a scope that I've ever read in my life, just a few issues ago in Shooting Times -- to include how to use bedding compound in securing the bases, and other tidbits of information. If you're serious about bedding scopes, you need to read this article.
To Rick (regarding the Guard comment): All is forgiven. Mom has dinner waiting on the table. You can come home again. Ask me how I feel about the ".45 ‘Long' Colt" sometime. (Make sure you're far away when you ask.) Say, since you're in North Carolina, why don't you just come on out to "observe" the Hathcock charity shoot (9-10 May 98)? Maybe you could even pitch in and help out running it (check with Rod Ryan and/or Scott Powers before you do anything).
On fire-lapping: I have experience with it. I'll never do it again on a "serious" shooter. It erodes the throat. However, for helping an "experienced" surplus military rifle to shoot again, I'd not hesitate a moment -- but my preference would be for "normal" lapping, using cast lead slugs. For your own sake, don't fire-lap gas-operated firearms. Actually, there's very little reason not to have a bore lapped the good ol' fashioned way. If it's your only means of lapping, though, then fire-lap.
To Ron: On your comment about thermal changes affecting scope alignment,
you probably have a good point. For this reason, I'd think about sending
along my rings and bases when having my barrel or barreled action cryogenically
frozen. Thereafter, any thermal changes would be nonexistent or minimal.
Regarding Weaver scopes' repeatability -- it is legendary, and that's all
that needs to be said about that.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 03:17:51 (EDT)
PS please pardon my spelling its late
Keith Kacmar <Kacmar@thevine.com>
Saugus, CA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 03:31:16 (EDT)
European scopes can be ordered with rails. The rail makes the scope more rigid and takes all the pressure away from the tube and there are no rings to leave marks/scratches on the tube. I have a H&K SL6 with a S&B 6X42 with rail in a H&K QD mount. Most mounts using the standard rail requires drilling holes trough the rail but the H&K-mount does not. It works great. If anyone has a H&K-rifle with this QD-mount just remove the rings and drop in a railed scope.
Zeiss has a new type of rail. A norwegian gunsmith, Ragnar Hansen, makes a onepiece milled steel Rem700base for this system. With the base mounted on the action the Zeiss drops into the base (like a 700 in a H&S stock) and are fastend with screws through the mag.opening. The scoperail is supported the entire length of the base/action leaving the tube stressfree. The Zeiss-rail do not require any drilling of holes in the rail.
Other advantages: No ring/turretconflicts, scope is always level
on the rifle.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 04:22:07 (EDT)
With respect to internal ballistics (i.e., the powder's burn rate), extruded powders typically take more time to burn completely, and -- within reason -- you might as well take advantage of as much of this "burn" as you can by keeping it inside the bore. I don't want to insult the person who gave you your information, but there cannot be a "hard and fast" rule to barrel harmonics. If you want to jump into a discussion of time/pressure curves, we can do so, but let me say that bullet weights, powder types (and burn rates), powder charges, rifling rate-of-twist, bore smoothness, bullet jacket composition, and a few other considerations must all be taken into account when choosing proper barrel length. The barrel alone, for my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum, weighs 10 pounds. Though it is 30 inches in length, in hindsight I wish I'd have gone with 32 inches to gain a little more velocity for the bullet/powder combination I'll be using. It is a #8 contour, and not intended for quick maneuvering in dense jungles or thick forests. Lilja's article contains a lot of useful information on the matter of barrel length versus velocity.
And don't worry about your spelling -- you got my first name right,
and that gets my respect. Take care.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 04:39:39 (EDT)
Sheperdetty/B>
A friend in Kansas told me a few years ago about the "great" Sheperd
scopes and how they prefom. He had about seven scopes that, dumbass me,
bought. The Idea is really neat, the only scope I really enjoy is the one
for the .22. I have it on a Rugger 10/22 and can hit Man size targets out
to 250 Meters. ( on a range with 20 foot berms and only Mole farts for
crosswind )
The others have gone to several German gun magazines and were trashed.
They do not hold up when you really use them.
The variables change zero, and the tubes are pretty thin.
I tried several times to get them repaired/changed but so far the
Sheperds have not done anything for me.
I guess the would make a good tent stake.
I look forward to any positive input as I belive that the Idea is good and should be followed up.
Tschüß Torsten
Torsten <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 05:32:52 (EDT)
I would like to hear from you comments concerning left handed sniper-accurate rifles. I just heard that Remington have started to produce their 700 VS in a left handed configuration (short action). Savage has been producing their 110 FPs and 112 FVLSS rifles for left handed for a long time. Should I go via Remington or Savage ? What is their price difference in USA ? (Price is an issue although a semi-custom rifle from Sako components can be had for a not-impossible-high sum. I prefer factory-issue because it is cheaper and hassle-free.)
What do you think about the optimum length of a barrel for 308 Win ? My goal is to be able to stay supersonic out to 1000 meters, if possible, and keep muzzle flash at a minimum. Peter G. Kokalis wrote in the latest SOF how the 24" length in M24 is the wrong one and that the US Army should have installed 26" barrels. At least nowadays they are experimenting with flash hiders that increase the lenght to around 26". Any opinions on this issue ?
Is the 300 Win actually much better than 308 when taken into consideration that it has a belted case (more difficult to reload properly), it kicks more and it´s ballistics far away extend only maximum range maybe 200 meters ? My other option could be a 338 Lapua Magnum. That route would be expensive but in any case it definately would put into shadow any .30 caliber rounds if barrel erosion is taken into consideration. 30-378 Weatherby barrels won´t live long and healthy lives :-)
As my shooting would be mainly max 800 meters away is there any reasons to buy anything else than a target grade 308 Win ?
Does anyone have any experience with Major Plasters two new sniper rifle stock-systems ? Choate produces the Sniper-stock and Autauga Arms will produce the newer "aluminium-rail-plastic-shell-in -Accuracy-Internatonal-fashion" stock. Any opinions on their quality and/or prices ?
Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 06:28:15 (EDT)
For your shooting needs, you'd be fine with a .308 Winchester.
Belted cases are more difficult for whom to reload?
Flash hiders do not increase barrel length. Barrels do not grow. You can add muzzle brakes, flash hiders, silencers, counterweights, or whatever you want, but barrels do not grow. In most cases I'd recommend a 26-inch barrel for long-range work, though my personal preference would be for a 28-inch barrel.
Factory rifles are "hassle free?" Indeed. I'll have to remember this.
Savage versus Remington? (Sigh, groan, gnashing of teeth... here
we go again.) No, on second thought, I'm not going to get into it right
now -- I've been up all night and I'm too tired to go into it.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 07:19:18 (EDT)
To Russell,
JGS Precision Tools Mfg.
Phone: (541) 267-4331
Fax : (541) 267-5996
email: jgstools@harborside.com
hour 7:30 am to 4:00 pm PST
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 08:00:57 (EDT)
Thanks
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 08:40:56 (EDT)
I will be using the rifle to determine my abilities to shoot long range, as long as possible. But, the scope selection seems rather small. Price isn't an object it will just take me longer to save for it if it is the big bucks. I am interested in sniper craft not bench rest.
Is Mil-dot the way to go? Should I buy the largest objective I can get. Is a 16x mag. the limit of my needs? In other words i you were to go out and buy a scope and it was the last one you were going to purchase,(at least until mommy said you can get another), what would you buy in position? The guy doing the work says get the Weaver without MilDot.KT15.
Still enjoying the site and wife can't stop singing the backup parts
to the Saddam song.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Hell town, Virginia USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 09:19:28 (EDT)
Russ: You are SUCH a smartass!!!
Tom: My recommendation is the Leupold Mark-IV 10X (M1 or M3). You
won't be disappointed with this scope. There are other good scopes, however;
among them is the B&L tactical (10X). I'm sure you'll get some other
recommendations.
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 12:29:19 (EDT)
What about the barnes x-bullet, it is only a 53gr bullet, but it is solid copper, and is supposed to expand into 4 sharp petals, something like a broad head arrow.
I'm looking to replace the simmons 6.5-20 44mag on my 700 PSS in
223. I was considering a Shepard, then again after some comments I've heard
here maybe they're over priced.
The other option I am leaning towards is the Springfield Armory
4-14x40 1st gen range finding scope for 5.56mm its price is about $200
bucks cheaper than the sheperd. Does anyone have any comments on the Springfield
scopes?
Keep in mind that I'm not a 'Tactical' shooter, just want to learn how to hit things that are really far away. ;-)
The only live thing on the receiving end of my gun will be varmits (Prairie Dogs, coyotes, and maybe crows) or if I haven't bought a 308 yet, maybe a deer or two.
Thanks
Tim Baird <tbaird@telegroup.com>
Fairfield, IA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 13:40:48 (EDT)
Ok, Shepard scopes: If memory serves, these things do not have any fast and easy way to adjust for wind. Nor are they rock tough. To me, the windage problem takes them out of the picture, but hey, you all might like them. Me? I shoot in lots of wind.
Caliber choices: If you are not pushing the outer limit, there is little reason to live with the bite and cost of feeding a magnum. Someone mentioned they wil lbe shooting to 800 yards? The .308 is fine for this. Also, do not forget the newer 175 grain Sierra Match king. This projectile will stay super sonic to 1000 yards so you needn't worry about that. with the proper windage charts and elevation tables, making hits to 1000 yards with the .308 is only limited by your ability to judge wind. This applies to any caliber frankly, even fast and flat ones. Magnums only have one real advantage way down range, and it is the one that counts the most. Wallop!
Scopes: All of you who have mentioned wanting information on a decent tactical scope rejoice! There is a new one on the market. The Leupold Vari-X III, 3.5-10x40 M3 Long range. This scope should fill the needs of most everyone as it gives you great field of view AND long range magnification. It also has a 30mm tube and enough elevation to reach way out there. It also has Minutes and a BDC on the elevation turret - a nice touch. It appears to be a variable version of the Mk4 series, at least at first glance. I'll try to borrow one and review it for you all ASAP, but give me time. I'm swamped.
To Tom and Tim. I doubt, at least for tactical shooting, you will need or want anything over 10x and often will want a lot less. This is why I am so excited about the new M3 Long Range mentioned above. For varmints, I have become a big fan of the B&L Elite 4000 6-24x40mm. Very repeatable! VERY. Good clear glass. Only limitation is elevation adjustment. It cries for the Burris offset ring insert. I love this scope and as Russ can attest, did very well with it on coke can sized baby p-dogs. one of you asked about mil-dots. Yes, they are worth it. At least for medium to long range. They are pretty redundant for 0 to 200 yards.
Rick: you are right of course about breaking down the mils. I try to do this to the closest 10th, as in 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 et cetera. I simply can not resolve them any better with my eyes. My point above was that even if you can not do this, break it down to 10ths, and a lot of guys have trouble at doing this at first, the mil-dot can still get you with in 15% even if you screw up. I belive the ideal was to be able to range via the Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball to with in 15%, so the point may have been moot. But if the shooter simply, well, sucks at range estimation, even a novice can get close with the mil-dot reticle.
Good topics all guys! Great to see the new "faces". and Russ...GO
REMINGTON! Hahahaha.
Scott <xring>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 15:07:09 (EDT)
I do have one further ?. The bench rest shooters seem to reccommend 16X or better scopes with with big optics. The tactical guys, which I want to be when I grow up, reccomend 10x or less even when espousing 1000yd(or meter) shots and 40mm objectives.
Thanks again,
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
hell town, shock USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 17:22:45 (EDT)
Some years ago I ordered a multiple dot-reticle with the 8 dots placed verically to represent bulletimpact for each 100m from 100m to 800m. I used the 200m 1 moa dot as center in the reticle. (100m 0.25moa dot for zeroing the rifle above center) The dots from 300m to 800m were made to cover 5" at each range. This fitted just inside the head on the targets we use. It works on the face on live targets as well especially if they wear a helmet that has a uniform size. This is the fastest rangefinder I've ever used. I just put the dot that fits the head on the target I'm going to shoot at and pull the trigger.
The scope I used was a german Pecar 12X45. I know Premier Reticles has made similar reticles for Leupolds.
This type of multiple dot-reticles works best with scopes in the 12X to 16X powerrange. Just make sure you have enough field of view.
This system is better in harsh climates because you don't have to
have the turrets exposed. Any scope, no matter the brand, will fog sooner
or later if the turrets are not covered with caps.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 18:18:15 (EDT)
I've heard a lot about Leupold, and plan to put one on my 10/22,
but I haven't heard much about Springfield's Scopes.
Does anyone have any comments on and/or experience with the Springfield
scopes?
Also keep in mind that I am not a 'Tactical' shooter. I doubt that
my life will ever depend on the quality/durability of my scope.
Tim Baird <tbaird@telegroup.com>
Fairfield, IA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 18:32:24 (EDT)
I bet Leupold would beg to differ regarding their Mark-IV M1.
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 18:56:17 (EDT)
Now, not being very knowledgeable about high-powered rifles, benchrest shooting or sniping, I'm mostly sitting back and watching. BUT, I've been playin' with pistols for a long time now, and I will occasionally chime in about them, as things come up. One comment---forgive me if I've allowed the "window of opportunity" to pass on this one, or if I am keying in on a passing comment in an old post:
In a post dated 16 April, Scott made the statement, "the 92 is a very fine pistol." NO IT IS NOT! I agree with the statements he made regarding caliber---if you're using good hollowpoint ammo, there's not a great deal of difference in lethality among most common military/police pistol rounds. HOWEVER, being an active duty Marine with a lot of pistol-shooting experience, and some firm opinions on the subject of the 92/M9, Iet me just say that it is NOT a well-designed combat pistol.
For one thing, the locking blocks break. EVERY TIME you need a 92, the locking block will break. I've gotten so I expect it. I drop the hammer, something doesn't feel right, I turn to the RSO and say, "get the armorer, my locking block's broken again." Seriously, no exaggeration, of the first 6 M9s I ever shot, the locking block broke on 5 of them. This is not a construction flaw, as some of these were actually Tauruses---it's a design flaw. A proper military sidearm should not fail that way, time after time. My dad bought his first .45 in 1963, as I recall. It took 25 years of shooting, at least, (and Dad shot quite a bit) for that weapon to seriously, mechanically fail, and when it did (lug broke off the barrel!), he was genuinely surprised. He was a gunsmith, and he said he'd never seen that happen before. (He had, conservatively, over 80000 rounds through it when it broke.) I would not trust my life to a pistol which has the history with me that the M9 has.
I also don't like the cutaway, top-ejecting slide, or the fact that gravity will pull dirt and sand INTO the action of the pistol during operation, if it's not perfectly clean.
The sights are acceptable, for a military gun, and of course, a 15-round mag capacity is never a bad thing.
I don't like that you have to make a conscious, seemingly unnatural effort to flip the safety "off" (any concerns about accidentally taking the weapon off safe should be addressed through training, not by dummy-proofing it). I have bigger hands than most guys, and I STILL find it difficult to smoothly sweep the safety off on the M9 without shifting it a good bit in my hand. Well, come to think of it, that's inherently NOT smooth! I've come up from the ready before, attempted to sweep the safety off smoothly as I was coming up, aimed in, and been unpleasantly surprised to find that when I squeezed---MUSH! Safety still half-on! THIS IS NOT THE WAY A COMBAT PISTOL SHOULD BE! This does not happen to me with my .45. Poor ergonomics--and I have a big hand, as I said. Most guys (who aren't serious pistol shooters, anyway!) use their left hands to manipulate the safety, but I refuse to do so---damn it, I shouldn't have to!
OK, enough of the soap box. Keep up the good work, gents! Semper
Fidelis!
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
St Marys, GA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 19:06:45 (EDT)
The only pistol I've ever seen break is a 92, though I've seen plenty of worn .45s. I'm no fan of the 92 either.
As for your comment about the "RSO," I gather that you've been assigned
to embassy duty. I've got a cousing who is with DS. Great agency. He's
not had to go overseas yet, but has been working on his law degree in D.C.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 19:46:57 (EDT)
To TorF: I have enjoyed reading your comments from the Scandinavian perspective. I have been many,many times in Norway and know your country well.
To Hexa (Heikki Hesasta): You have some very good equipment
right there in your own back yard: Sako and Tikka rifles,
Lapua brass and bullets, Vihtavuori powders). You will not go wrong
with e.g. a Tikka M595, heavy 26" barrel in .308 Win., original Sako/Tikka
scope mounts. By the way, they sell for Cdn$ 700 here, which is about half
the price you can get them in Finland. Doubling the price of the Tikka,
you can get a Sako TRG-21, and you are home free.
Hans
BC CANADA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 21:43:37 (EDT)
Wish I could make the shoot, but I'm in the middle of a course that has a schedule detroyed by weather and "Post Police". They have closed all ranges and training areas for a week except from 1800 to 0600. Needless to say this has us working re < odd hours.
Shepard Scopes = tent pegs!
Any system that requires you to hold a mythical empty expanse of glass for both elevation and windage as a primary sighting system has problems. On second thought not tent pegs, too fragile. Broke a reticle system first day of a test shoot! That is why those reticles don't align!
We keep an armorer on the range every day in our pistol course to fix broken M9s. We put about 2000 rounds through a weapon each course and they almost all break!
Mr. Bain - You will get a callous from the H&K. You'll know what I mean when you get through with your shooting, but have fun and for goddness sake stay safe!
Love that 45 Long!!!;-)
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 22:59:55 (EDT)
Not embassy duty, security forces at a Navy SSBN base. At least we actually make an effort to remain proficient with weapons here, which was all too uncommon in the FMF! !
I'm with you, by the way. Never seen a stock .45 break, or have much serious trouble at all. And if we absolutely HAD to go to 9mm, I can name a dozen right now that would've been a better choice than the M9. Personally, I'm happy carrying ANYTHING designed by old John Moses B.
Now, a question for the board: I will eventually have a .308 built on a Czech Mauser action, custom-built but not unusually "tricked out." I don't have any HP rifle experience to speak of, but I'd like to learn to shoot this thing at long range--as long as the rifle can handle, that is. What do I need to know, and how do I get started? My biggest handicap is probably that I don't have a 1000 yd. range available in my area, as far as I can tell. I'm open to any and all advice or suggestions, so have at it! (I know if someone asked me a question like this about pistol shooting, I wouldn't even know where to start, so I figure this might be a lot of run for some of you.) Don't worry, you won't bore me with your answers! Thanks.
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
St Marys, GA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 00:11:33 (EDT)
Seriously, keep up the great work while I wait patiently for the
new Leupold Vari-X III M3 Long Range to make it out on the market. By the
way, I'd like a couple of sources for FFL equppied dealers to get good
priced Leupold scopes.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, KS USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 00:14:24 (EDT)
As for calloused hands, well, I've already got those! It comes from
excessive short-stroking. And no, I don't mean with a bolt gun! See the
first paragraph.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 00:30:26 (EDT)
I'll get arguments from Leupold die-hards, but... I'd get the Burris mil-dot in the power range of your choice. I'd go for a 16x maximum for "real" sniping. I bought two -- an 8-32x for my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum and a 6-24x for my Savage 110FP Tactical. If you research last month's archive, you'll find a link to a posting on rec.hunting that might "open your eyes" (pun intended) on rifle scopes.
Glad your wife likes the Saddam song. I posted it here as soon as I heard it. Cracks me up!!!
To Thor: On the S.O.F. article on the Chandler rifle, I've read and reread it now, and... I have a big problem with the "brazing the mounts to the rifle adds .5 MOA" claim. I feel this is a pretty bold claim. Not to impugn Lt Col. Chandler's fine reputation, but I would have to take issue with him. (I've pissed off generals before, so I suppose I can handle a Marine Lt. Col., too.) I would agree with the larger base screws, but a ".5 MOA" improvement -- as an "average" -- in groups? Well, I smell snake oil somewhere. Brazing or welding bases to receivers is nothing new (Savage used to do this), and there's no argument it makes for a solid mount. However, if your non-brazed mounting is that sloppy that brazing adds THAT much improvement in your shooting, then you've done a piss-poor (yes, Virginia, it IS a hyphenate) job of mounting your scope in the first place. I also agree that such laudatory remarks by Kokalis are also quite... um... "amazing," considering his experience. Still, I have no doubt that the rifle shoots pretty darn well.
On the new Leupold scope Scott mentioned: Yes, it's a fine scope. Contact your real estate broker and/or bank for the latest mortgage information. As for the Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 6-24x scope... Scott and another Sniper Country Council member talked me into getting one -- and now I have four (three 6-24x models, one 36x model). They are, simply, the best scope for the money, bar none (and not just because I say so). And as Scott knows, I do use the Burris offset inserts to compensate for the scope's internal MOA elevation adjustment. On my .308, I use a .020" insert in front and a .005" insert in the rear, easily allowing me to handle 50-yard shots out to 600 yards or more. On my .338/378, I'll be using a .020" insert in both the front and rear rings; with a zero of 46.1 inches "high" at 100 yards, with moly-coated 300-grain Sierra Match Kings at 3,000 FPS muzzle velocity, I'll be 0.5 inches "low" at 1500 yards.
To Dan: Yes, my "peeve" is with the (incorrect) ‘long' designation of the .45 Colt. Actually, I love my SAA in .45 Colt, and nothing feels more "right" than a Colt SAA revolver. I'm an anachronism -- I should have been around in the 1880s. Oh, well. Yes, metals would still expand and contract with heat and cold, respectively, but the stresses introduced to the parts during the machining process would be eliminated, and I think any changes would be only marginal at worst. Dissimilar metals would not concern me unless the gun in question was in an environment conducive (chemically or electrostatically) to "welding." I think normal gun maintenance would negate such problems in most cases. Mark Stouse of BlackStar could offer more commentary on this subject; you may want to drop him a note with your comments. I think, at least in a small way, this area bears further consideration. Certainly, I've never seen it addressed before.
To Tom: Tactically, much of the concern is mirage. For benchrest shooters, with (typically) closer distances, (usually no greater than 300 yards/meters?), 36-power scopes are the norm. Tactical shooters (the smart ones, anyway) like going with scopes having 40mm objectives to facilitate a lower mounting position on the rifle which, in turn, allows for the shooter to maintain a lower profile during an engagement. Large objectives are becoming quite the fad and, as Scott will tell you, this just isn't necessary for most sniper-related shooting. Big optics might be desirable for varmint shooting, but the tactical concern is the (usually) required "heads up" shooting posture.
To Tim: I may get take some heat on this, but on several occasions (and I mean, "several") I've heard negative things about the quality of the Springfield scope. Tactically speaking, I'd consider something else.
To Matt: I don't like slide-mounted safeties either. I own a Taurus PT945. It's got the frame-mounted safety feature that I like, like the Government .45, but it also has the decocker feature I like as well. I can carry cocked-and-locked if I choose, but if the gun is already cocked and I use the decocker, the lever flips back to the "fire" position allowing me a double-action shot if necessary. Personally, I'll never buy a gun with a slide-mounted safety. My FEG PA-63 Makarov has a slide-mounted safety, and I can live with it, but I bought the gun for the size, function, and price -- not the safety feature. And for what it's worth, Matt -- even though I qualify "expert" with the M9 (who can't?), I prefer a .45 to a 9mm, and wish we'd never gone with the M9. It was a case of NATO ass-kissing, if you ask me. And, always faithful to you too, Matt.
To Mr. Bain: Unless I'm wrong, I believe Matt meant "Range Safety Officer" by his mention of "RSO." If he meant something about embassy duty, then it's a new one on me.
To Steve and Torsten: You folks need to stop surfing the ‘Net and start surfing this site. We already have the ballistic software that you mentioned, Steve, available here.
To Hans: I gave up my wish for a .338 Lapua Magnum when I saw the possibilities and advantages (gunsmithing) of the .340 Weatherby Magnum... but then, I saw what the .338/378 Weatherby Magnum could do. I'd wanted a .338 caliber rifle ever since I read Shadow Over Babylon (see the review on this site), and the rest is history (except for my current reamer problem).
To Rick: Sorry you can't make the shoot, amigo.
".45 LONG COLT???!!!" :-)
To Les: I have no experience with "bloop tube" rimfire shooting, but your idea probably has some merit. For what it's worth, I've had similar ideas concerning the alteration of barrel harmonics so, if you think it's a worthwhile pursuit, go for it.
Again, to Matt: Except for mirage and wind, you can practice 1,000-yard shooting with properly scaled targets.
To "Manhattan Matt:" Hey, pal, I had to pay for my ArmaLite
too! Special deal? Okay, buy NOW and get a TOASTER! (Note: California is
proposing a law that would ban all of our ArmaLite toasters, so get yours
NOW!!!)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 02:06:58 (EDT)
I got my scopes initially through Wes Harris of Mc Millan Rifleworks.
It was around Desert Storm time. The scopes were made by tasco, and i think
that after the deal went tits up tasco took over the tooling and kept going
without the patented cant lever. I have had one on my Mauser 86SR since
then until this year shot show were i picked up the new M3 long range with
a mil dot. The Phrobis/tasco scopes held up real good and the one on the
Mauser got beaten up pretty bad and soaked a lot of times.
Last i heard from Phrobis was something about a beefed up 92 slide
and then a Knife for the Seals? No Idea what is with them now. PS I still
have three Phrobis scopes (offers anyone ?)
Sheperd !
just saw that Sheperd has their site up and running look for it at shooters.com.
Surfing !
Sorry Russ, I am so far away from you guy´s i get lost now
and then. It seems to get better though as i become part of the family
See ya, Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 03:19:58 (EDT)
#2: Has anyone come up w/an anser to the balistic solution 'o' the
month if so will any be posted?
Keith Kacmar <Kacmar@thevine.net>
Saugus, CA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 03:27:45 (EDT)
Responses to the Ballistic Solution of the Month will be posted when there are a sufficient number to make it worthwhile to do so. To my knowledge, a satisfactory answer has not been submitted. I don't think Condor is going to make the scenario much easier, so it's going to require someone to put some serious thought into the problem.
As an aside, I'm inteo soed in finding someone who will machine some
special bullets for me. I probably need a machinist with CNC equipment.
I can supply a suitable grade of brass bar stock, and I'm willing to discuss
cost. I can provide the specifications upon request to anyone who is SERIOUSLY
capable of performing the work. Further, I'd like to go offline (or even
have a chat on the phone) with a chemist who is knowledgeable in polymers.
A background in metallurgy would also be desirable.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 05:11:29 (EDT)
I'll stick to my experience:
Any scopes with turrets not protected by caps will fog/fail sooner or later in the field.
A scope with open turrets are much more vulnerable in the field because you will bump into things turret first. The Leupold Mk.4 M1 will not last long on a extended patrol. The The Mk.4 M3 is much better due to its lower profile. You can avoid this by usiscopelieable QD-mounts ofcource.
I prefer a sniperrig that can hold zero and shoot .75moa after weeks or months in action rather than a frigile greenpainted .25moa varmintrifle.
BTW: I'm TorF from Norway, Torsten comes from Germany
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 08:03:52 (EDT)
Tom: Benchrest types like the high magnification as they need to see the bullet hole, even at 200 yards. They are shooting at a very small bullseye and even go as high as 36x or larger! The tactical shooter doesn’t really need all this magnification and the limitations that accompany it. Tactical shooting does not require this level of visual acuity. Also, these very high magnification scopes are seldom "ram tough". One reason you see fixed 10x (or even less) scopes in the military is that you can make them very strong so they can stand up to the abuse they are going to receive. Weight is also a consideration. Those big scopes aren’t light, nor are they small. They can be real liability to a guy who might have to hump 40 to 80 pounds in addition to his rifle. Russ also mentioned the scope height issue. The big glass buts the shooter way above the center of the bore and makes him expose his tender little noggin unnecessarily.
To give you some idea of how well a power as "low" as 10x works, let me illustrate it this way: When shooting on a human shaped steel target at 800+ yards, we could easily see the impacts. At the other end of the range scale, even the 10x was way to much magnification as you lost all field of view. I guess this is why I am becoming so enamored of the 3.5-10x power scopes.
Matt: I can not argue with anything you said about the Berretta. My comment on it was, admittedly, not very descriptive of my personal feelings for the 92. Simply put, I personally hate it. But I didn’t want to start a web war with Berretta aficionado friends of mine. I would still say, that for the civilian shooter who is going to shoot only a few 100 rounds a year, the 92 is a fine weapon, equal to other less than personally desirable firearms I can not afford... That is not to say it is an excellent weapon, but it will do for their purposes. For me, the 92 ill fits my hand. Sort of like holding a brick and trying to manipulate oddly placed controls. Of course, I am a lefty so I could make the same claim on the Sig line also. I do not much care for them either. (ooh boy! Here it comes! Let the wars begin!) Of all the handguns I’ve owned, I have found the Browning Hi Power and the Tanfoglio line of CZ clones to fit me best. Also, I have, through shear good luck I suppose, have never experienced any operating problems with either, at least through about 5000 round so far.
Scott
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 08:58:41 (EDT)
I own a SIG P220, and although I don't like the height of the barrel above your hand (too much muzzle flip with hot loads), I generally like it. But to each his own, definitely. Whatever you can hit with, preferably quickly. I'm also a Glock fan, if you are well-trained enough to handle carrying a weapon without a manual safety. This might be a gun for you---at least you don't have to screw with a safety that's on the wrong side of the pistol, for your hand! But I know a former undercover narcotics cop who shot himself in the gluteus maximus (read: butt cheek!) while practicing drawing his Glock from inside his back waistband, so beware! It's not for the faint of heart, or short of practice. Thank God he wasn't carrying in front, huh?
Semper Fi!
Matt
Matt <m45ac-@gate.net>
St Marys, GA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 12:43:01 (EDT)
Funny you mention the mag safety in the HP. Royal pain in the **s! Could there possibly have been an over abundance of lawyers even back in 1935? Removing it was the first tihng I ever did to a handgun. I jsut can not imagine how you'd shoot an IDPA match with one installed. So much for speed reloads! At least that is my memory. The mag would only drop a little and hang up form the pressure of the mag safety. Screw empty mag retention! I want a fresh mag, like NOW.
The Sig seems like a good handgun, but very user unfriendly if you happen to be a south paw. A friend has about a dozen of the things. My experience is the same as yours where muzzle flip is conserned.
I hear form a Berretta rep that a redesign is in the works for the grip shape on the 92. This of course will not help its other faults, but again, for the average Joe who shoots occaisonally, this should be most welcome. I know guys with big hand who still have to cock the gun sideways to reach the controls. At least the new 92G has a spring loaded decocker. The F model can mess you up bad if you do a tap-rack-bang and accidentally nudge the decocker. SqueezeSQUISH...oh SH**!!!
Do you have any experience with a 1911 in .40 S&W? I prefer double
stack frames personally, but with this new round I keep looking at the
1911 design again.
Matt <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 13:50:41 (EDT)
I AM NOT A TACTICAL SHOOTER!
No offense to the true 'snipers' who frequent this site, I both admire and envy the skills they have accuired to do that job, and live to tell about it. I am interested in learning about and practicing long range marksmanship. And while I want good clear quality optics, I'm not in a position to shell out $1000+ for a high end Leupold.
Russ:
What were the quality issues?
Scott:
Opps, you'd think a guy who makes his living with computers would be sharp enough to figure out there was more info in the archive. Thanks for the heads up, I searched through it, but I still have some questions/comments.
Springfield still makes two scopes in 40mm, a 6x fixed for 7.62 and the 4-14x40 variable for 5.56 that I'm considering.
Doesn't a sunshade or 'honeycomb' device eliminate the problem with the reflection?
I had a chance to check out the 4-14x40 5.56 at a gun show, it looked like a nice scope for the money, $340.
On the subject of the changing reticle size in the Springfield scope. I thought that indicated a front or european reticle. Which I heard is supposed to hold zero much better than a rear or American reticle. Because the only thing that can thow off zero is the front lens. I got this info from the sheperd scope video. They use a dual reticle which will show if rear reticle moves off zero, good idea/design, but if quality of the product is poor its junk and what good is it.
Can anyone give me the low down on the B&L Elite 4000 6-24x40mm dealer cost/retail prices? Also does it have BDC or should I condiser taking a laptop with PCB on it to the range to help me calculate the wind/range adjustment. ;-)
I really apreciate the info you guys have given me, I just don't want to be confused with a real 'tactical shooter', I'm not nearly that good.
Thanks
Tim Baird <tbaird@telegroup.com>
Fairfield, IA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 14:22:00 (EDT)
I have made some monolithic Match Bullets for the 12.7x99 .
Mc Millan sold them for a while. I still have plenty of bar stock.
We are using a special composition that was figured out by MEN (Metallwerke
Eliesenhütte Nassau) a German Military Ammunition Manufacturer. They
had a Blueprint in a Gun Mag and took all measurements out, but left the
Material designation. Whoops!
The 780 Grain Coffins have a .2 Grain variation.
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 15:25:47 (EDT)
I just read the review, and if these are the same 8x30´s the German Army uses then I can only agree with your opinion. If´ve used them now since 83´and they have not failed even under the worst conditions.
The Military sells some of them out of their depot stocks every now and then. I boughts some awhile back and took them over to friends in Florida and Nebraska and South Afrika, they love them.
If any are up for grabs in the future I´ll post a note.
You should have them landed stateside for around $250-280.
Condition on is issuable with only minor wear signs.
Can anyone get me a Sniper Training and Employment Field Manual. I only have the TC 23-14 and a USMC S/S TM
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 15:48:42 (EDT)
I have done extensive testing on slide velocities and slide to frame
impact since 92´ using a Phillips Tectronics Analizer. We fit a Piezzo
unit in the rear sight dovetail and fire the pistol in a ransom rest. You
get a nice curve with acceleration and all in G´s.
The 92´s slide impacts at around 1920 G a Glock slide bounces
into the polymer frame at around 150 G. A 1911-A1 smashes in at 4500 G.
Tests were made under Nato AQAP 4.
Torsten
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 16:00:50 (EDT)
SO, this means that aluminum grows .00001244 inches per inch of length
per each degree F that it's temp is increased, and steel grows .0000063"
under the same conditions. Now we have only to multiply these figures by
the actual length in question by the actual temperature differential. I
can't say that I have ever checked my receiver with a pyrometer after firing
several rounds, but for the sake of argument let's say I was really blazing
and the average receiver temp in the area between the rings is 170F. That's
pretty hot, and it's 100 degrees more than when I mounted the scope (say
it was 70F). In this little story, let's keep things simple and say the
scope hasn't absorbed any of this heat and is still at 70F, so it's not
going to grow in length from when it was all put together,and the rings
are 8" apart. That's the only dimension that matters, the rest of the receiver
can expand all it wants, but this is the only area that will affect the
spacing of rings. So, we have a 100 degree differential in temp and an
8" ring spread. Coefficient of expansion for steel (.0000063) X 8" X 100F=
.005, 5/1000 of an inch. That ought to be enough to make something
happen, but this is a pretty extreme example, and remember the expansion
is along the axis of the bore which would probably give a minimal effect.
Also, the scope body is a thinwalled tube, so it can't "try as hard" to
expand along it's axis. Depending on how well it's locked into the rings,
the linear expansion might just take the path of least resistance and manifest
itself as a slight bulge in diameter. Heck, even if the .005 movement occurred
100% sideways, .005 in 8" amplified to 100 yds comes to 2.25", which I
realize on this website is a mile, but just to illustrate the point. My
conclusion for what it is or isn't worth, is that this is one of those
theoretical bugaboos that are nice to keep around in the unproven state
so that we have a place to lay the blame when something unexplained happens!.
Ned C. <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers,, MI USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 19:00:39 (EDT)
Think about this (it doesn't mean anything but think about it): when
you have your barrel cryogenically treated, if it's 24" long, it gets .056"
shorter, almost 1/16", when it's down to 300 below!
Ned C. <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 19:14:21 (EDT)
Since we are one the subject of thermal expansion, let me send parts
of an article I had published in Precision Shooting Magazine a number of
years back. Back then P. S. was strictly benchrest oriented, and parts
of this submission may not apply. I exported these documents from a DOS
program into ASCII text and then retrieved them into Word. Cut and pasted
them into your list, hope everything formats correctly.
Ron N.
Aluminum (7075 T6) expands .0000130 inch per degree Fahrenheit, per inch length. Steel (4140) expands .0000065 inch per degree, per inch. Now these coefficients do not remain the same for all temperatures ranges, so I've selected values that generally apply to shooters, and for our purposes they're accurate. What does all this mean? Our scopes and receivers are not expanding or contracting at the same rate when the ambient temperature changes. Stress has to be building up in the scope-receiver interface, as the temperature changes. If a scope was mounted (6 inch ring spacing) in 40 degree temperature and shot on a 100 degree day, the scope would grow .0046 inch, and the action would grow .0023 inch, the difference being .0023 inch. The two items are spaced apart by the height of the scope rings, which are levers multiplying any force and effect. Can we ignore these forces?
Let me toss out a few thoughts, and maybe others will respond and give their ideas.
1. From time to time we all experience loss of zero, could it be
from this stress?
2. Does the scope slide in its rings from this force, or are the
two locked together causing a bending of the action or scope. If the
action bends, your barrel will be aligned in a different place.
If your
scope bends, you'll be aiming at a different place.
3. This stress may be relieved at the first shot when movement of
the action helps overcome the friction in the rings, i.e. first shot out
of the group after not using the rifle for a long period of time.
4. Maybe the differing tension between the two causes the rifle
to tune or resonate differently at different temperatures, i.e. the rifle
wants a different load later in the day.
5. Maybe one of the mounting rings should be dusted lightly with
powdered rosin and tightened securely, and the other dusted with graphite
and brought up tight enough to eliminate any play, and no more.
6. All things considered, using a Unertl type scope (on the action),
may be the best way to deal with such movement.
7. A steel scope on a steel action, and an aluminum scope on aluminum
action, would be better than mixing metals as we do now.
----------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Nosack,
Came across your article in P.S. and thought I would pass on a comment
or two.
You are so right about the expansion of different materials, of
course we all know the common spring thermometer uses the bi-metallic spring
for just this reason.
Some years back my friend Manley Oakley from Seattle was shooting
his unlimited at the Nationals with a Redfield 3200, a long target scope
with solid mounts and internal adjustments. His mounts were 10 plus inches
apart on a Hart #4 big action. He was doing very well but noticed his point
of impact on the target was getting lower, which of course was no great
problem until during a match in the afternoon when bingo a shot 1-1/2 inches
out- the scope had slipped in the mount. He decided the 3200 was not a
practical scope and got rid of it.
Another shooter in the Seattle area, Bruce Stallard made an unlimited
rifle on his own action, and based on Oakley's experience made his own
scope mount system with just one ring about 1-1/2 to 2 inches long as I
remember. It worked just fine. Then Manley Oakley tried just using the
front ring - that is all he uses and I might add he shot a .16xx 100 yard
Sporter agg. this summer at Tacoma with 1 bad group that was over .300
inch. Not too shabby with only 1 ring!
I think your thoughts on the front ring being tight and the back
one loose is a good one, and I don't believe one could go wrong in trying
it. I have some teflon pipe thread tape that is wide (1") and will give
it a try in the near future.
Best Wishes,
Allen Bench
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 19:57:13 (EDT)
You're right, NATO 9mm is hot, and that undoubtedly beats up the guns excessively, but do the Brits have this problem with the HP? I don't know, but my gut instinct is that a military gun shouldn't fail this way, period. For that matter, I've shot a couple Tauruses on which the locking blocks broke, and they hadn't been firing military ammo. Regardless of the causes, it just shouldn't be happening. And as far as gallery guns, well, the problem is that you never know how many rounds your pistol (gallery gun or not) has had through it before you, so how can you possibly have any confidence in it? I took my own, brand-new locking block and barrel to the Mediterranean with me, and would've replaced them both before carrying my M9 into a dangerous situation.
I can't remember hearing of a stock .45 just flat-out breaking. Maybe it happens, but personally, I'm more inclined to trust a .45. I've been shooting them for years, have owned several, Dad owned several more, and the only major mechanical problem I've seen was the aforementioned broken lug (after many, many tens of thousands of rounds).
Haven't handled a full-size USP, so can't comment on it. Have shot the Compact in .40 S&W, and thought it a pretty good factory gun. I'd have to shoot it a lot more to evaluate it. For one thing, I'm just biased against HK, so I'd have to really shoot the heck out of one to get past the bias and fairly evaluate it.
Scott: re: .40 S&W 1911s, no, I haven't shot or handled one, but my boss owns a Para-Ordnance in .40, and really likes it. Hey, why not?
OK, out here.
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
St Marys, GA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 20:21:50 (EDT)
As far as the current handgun argument, I own one of each of the formentioned guns. My favorite has to be the USP .40, although I will always be partial to the 1911 design. For casual plinking, any of the guns will be fine.
Matt: Never having shot 8000 rounds through my Beretta, I have not
ran into any of the problems you describe. (Although I don't doubt them.)
My main problem with the design is the poor barrel to slide fit which affects
accuraccy like you wouldn't believe. I miss the bushing from the 1911.
If you've got any way to fix this problem, let me know(and throwing the
Beretta off a cliff is not an option.) :)
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, KS USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 23:48:20 (EDT)