Sniper
Country Duty Roster
April 1998
Storm Mountain competition to help Sgt. Hathcock is an exceptional
idea. Due to logistical difficulties other shooters and I may not be able
to attend the upcoming competition. Perhaps local shoots could be held
similar to Postal Matches sponsored by American Handgunner Magazine. These
remote matches could be supervised by a team picked by Storm Mountain staff
who set target and condition standards to match those at SM, as closely
as possible. This would allow shooters across the country to compete with
each other and help Gunney at the same time. Local gun stores and other
sponsors could provide prizes and other incentives. There are thousands
of acres in my neck of the woods (S.E. Oklahoma) owned by John Hancock
Insurance Co. that might be available for such a shoot. Any retired officers
from Logistics out there?
10SNE1 <cmhmorel@oio.net>
Circus City, USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 02:58:16 (EST)
To 10SNE1: Brilliant idea on the postal matches for Carlos. My only
concern is that 100 percent of all funds would go to Carlos and Jo Hathcock
-- I have a real "problem" with "paying ONLY for expenses" and so on. As
long as this could be guaranteed, I would have no problem in offering my
personal support. Others may feel differently, but my position is that
if costs are incurred, then someone can pay for them out of his or her
own pocket, which means that such things would NOT be paid for out of ANY
of the funds raised for Carlos. I've made it clear to shooters and to contributors,
and I'll say it again -- absolutely ALL of the money we are raising for
Carlos Hathcock II is going to him! No "expenses" are being paid for out
of the money we are raising -- and if I ever find out otherwise, there'll
be Hell to pay. This being said, if postal matches, or any other types
of matches, can be organized in such a way that would benefit shooters
with experience and the Hathcocks with much-needed funds, I'll do everything
I can to make such events a success, and I think I'm speaking for everyone
on the Sniper Country Council by making this statement. Please understand
if I'm a bit guarded where Carlos is concerned, but I am sure it is obvious
that others have already used his name to line their own pockets. This
is upsetting to both myself and to Carlos III (Carlos II's son). This whole
charity event was conceived as an act of love, not as a commercial gimmick.
If I could be sure that everyone involved in "Carlos Charity Shoots" (CCS)
would be of the same mind, I'd be content. Anyone with any "detailed" ideas
along these lines (about setting up a CCS), please don't hesitate to contact
me, Scott Powers, or any other member of the Council.
To Rick: My consideration in choosing a scope had very little to
do with rangefinding capabilities. For 1500-yard shots, mil-dot reticles
would be quite difficult to use in determining accurate distances. After
consulting with other extreme long-range shooters, I have decided
that my best affordable method for determining ranges beyond 1,000
yards will be by using a topographical map. My experience with such maps
is, well, rather extensive -- so I don't think there will be any serious
problems in using them to determine distance to a target. Someday when
I'm filthy rich (?), I'll buy one of those NAIT laser rangefinders that
are good out to 2,000 yards. I agree with you, however, in that shots under
1,000 yards can easily and accurately be ranged with a mil-dot scope. My
preference for using the stadia reticle, if I'd had that option within
my budget, is founded in the fact that I like that particular style for
making shots. I really like the LightForce scope's stadia reticle -- in
fact, about the only thing I don't like about the scope is it's size. Reticle
selection is most likely a personal choice based on experience and utility.
Thanks for writing, Rick.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 05:19:01 (EST)
To: Waylon 228
Maybe you can't shoot a 300 Win, but I think that I could hit a
stop sign with it at 50yds by throwing the rifle. Keep shooting.
Randy Stoddard <atoz@galstar.com>
Ponca City, Okla USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 06:09:41 (EST)
Four years of school almost completed. Administration of Justice
degree almost in hand. Starting to test with police agencies. A good job
as a cop can't be far! I would like to hear from any SWAT or SERT team
members how the best way to get on the team is once I am in the door (Oregon
State Police, Portland Police and Boise City Police are looking like my
choice three!) What can I do now to better my chance at getting the coveted
title of "sniper","counter-sniper" or "tactical sharpshooter"???
Michael D. Roberts <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Vernonia, Oregon USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 12:44:29 (EST)
Elijah: I read your note on the sniper weapons and I think you are
very wrong by saying that
bolt action rifle will die quickly as a sniper weapon. I don't know,
but I think there is many
other fine riflemen out there who would agree with me.
varminter <goranz@muskingum.edu>
USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 14:52:06 (EST)
Hi, Guys! First post from Grasshopper. I shoot a monthly tactical
match
in Sacramento (see "Sacramento Snipers" article) with my SR25 and
saw a couple
of questions about the Stoner's performance. The crowd at this match
may be
a little slow compared to others here, but I can tell you that the
SR25 *can*
play with the bolt guns and kick some butt in the process. I topped
mine with the
B&L 10x Tactical scope and use a handload round using Berger
168gn LTB and military
brass that stays supersonic at 1000 yards (though just barely).
In one match when I
was particularly hot, I took first and came within one shot of the
match record score.
On the 600 yard line, 3 cold shots gave me a 30-2X on a B-27 target.
After the match we
did a 500-yard egg-substitute shoot (we used a kiwi fruit -- "Think
of it as an egg in
a ghillie suit," quipped the match organizer) and I nailed it on
the fourth round. The
rifle can definitely do the job and I am changing a lot of minds
among the match shooters
about gas guns. After last month's match, one commented "That gun's
got no damn business shooting
as well as it does!"
Keep in mind I'm new to tactical shooting and the Stoner, I've only
had about 500 rounds through the
rifle, and the first match was also the first time I'd tried it
past 100
yards. I'm still trying to nail down the balistics and wind drift
estimations, so I hope
I can improve my consistancy in the future. If anyone else has a
SR25, I'd like to exchange
email on experiences, accessories, loads, etc.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 17:35:31 (EST)
Any one with thoughts on a load for .308 in Remington 700 VS? I
currently am using IMR4895 or 4064 (around 41 grains) great accuracy but
no speed. can anyone recommend a load over 2600fps with the 168 grain matchking.
Any help would be appreciated. thanks
Tom Scharf <scharft@pinenet.com>
Hinckley, Mn. USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 22:05:34 (EST)
To Michael Roberts:
Congrats on the Admin. of Justice Degree. I just got my degree in
Criminal Justice in December, and where I went to school, the difference
between your degree and my degree is about 3 classes or so, depending on
the electives you take. So, we have certainly chewed some of the same dirt!
As far as a cop job goes, I wish you the best of luck. I hope it
is better than mine. I went through years of hellish schooling and working
and thought I was a shoo-in for the local PD. I was wrong. Beware of the
"good ol' boy" system if you live in a small town. You might find that
people who are FAR less educated and a lot less smart than you don't get
hired right off the bat. I passed all the police tests, did great in the
interview, and sat back and watched as a kid younger than me, ( I am 21
and a half) with no experience and an associates degree got a job, but
I was passed over. I am still trying. It really depends on who you know.
Thats how others get hired, at least around here. I want to be a police
officer with all my heart. I am in a ride-along program with my local PD
and have my degree. Spotless record. I will be patient though. A CLEET
certification is probably just as good as a Masters around here, then they
don't have to pay for your training.
As far as SWAT related activities go, I would like that too. But
1st, I have resolved to become the very best patrol officer I can before
I even think about SWAT or another special unit. These guys are the best.
I figure that if I am destined to be a sniper or another SWAT team member,
then the job will find me and not vice-versa. If I cannot become a SWAT
sniper or other SWAT team member, then I will simply accept that and become
something else, and become the best that I can at it. Maybe 5 or 10 years
later I can try again when I have more experience, at least thats what
I think.
Michael, please promise to become the very best traffic cop in town
before you worry about sniping. I have heard that the job will pick you,
and not you picking the job. I say this because we are the few (wannabe)
cops that do have degrees that also are rookies, and we will be held to
a higher standard just because we are "college boys", and some of the old
"salty dogs" at the top may have less education than us. I have seen this
already. Good luck my friend, and good shooting. Wish me the same. If anyone
on Muskogee PD is reading this, please hire me! If you are in Oregon, please
hire Michael! The fact that we spent 4 years and thousands of dollars for
such a thankless job should be some proof of our dedication to the task
at hand.
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhedrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, OK USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 23:39:53 (EST)
I've got a couple questions and comments:
To Russell: Speaking of the NAIT rangefinder, I saw one (supposedly
only one outside of military) for $8000. Let me know if you need it that
bad.
Nathan & Michael: Welcome to the club. I graduate in May with
Criminal Justice degree. It's the paradoxal EXPERIENCE that counts (kind
of hard to gain experience when no one hires you because of your lack of
experience). I'm currently in the local Sheriff Department Reserve program,
and interviewing at the rate of about once a week. Best Wishes on finding
employment.
Need to find:
Gibbs M-85 bipod- tore apart Shotgun News looking for one. Any help
locating one would be appreciated.
Tactical Scope- ECONOMICALLY priced tactical scope needed to top
my Savage 110FP. Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks for any help, and continue to support Sniper Country. Great
site with great info.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Kansas USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 00:03:55 (EST)
To Tom Scharf.
Try VV N550 powder for 308win.
I use Lapua 170gr LockBase FMJBT, BC.540, on top of 48gr VV N550.
MV in my Rem 40XR is 2750fps.
Accuracy on 100m: .5 MOA.
This is not benchrest accuracy but in real life at long ranges this
round outperforms any 168gr/175gr Sierra/2600fps combination.
VV data can be found at www.lapua.com
TorF
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:09:35 (EST)
To Matt:
The NAIT model I'm referring to is much less than $8,000.00, but
thanks for thinking of me.
I bought two M-85 bipods at the Indy 1500 gun show a couple of weekends
ago, for $60 a piece. They are available from Model 1 ("Imports?"), some
outfit in Illinois (up around Chicago, I think). They had an advertisement
in Shotgun News or Gun List -- I can't remember which. If you do a Deja
News search through the rec.guns and rec.hunting newsgroups, you'll
probably find an address and/or phone number for them. Or, if you want,
drop me a line to my E-mail address, and I'll get you a phone number. (Maybe
someone else reading the Duty Roster has a phone number for Model
1 that they could relay to Matt.)
As for an "economical" tactical scope, I think you first need to
tell us your idea of economical. However, you'll probably want to
go with the Tasco tactical model (see the Reviews
page).
To Sniper Country's Law Enforcement Visitors: Let me say how
nice it is to have you here with us, and I hope you'll return often.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:12:12 (EST)
great web site.
cpl golden, michael t. <spiderman@truelink.net>
palmdale, ca USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:25:11 (EST)
To TorF in Oslo: Thanks for the load data. I have some N-550 that
I'll be trying with some moly-coated 168-grain Hornady A-Max bullets. We
seem to have a discrepancy, however, in that you list the B.C. of the Lapua
FMJBT as .540 and I show it as .504 (shaving hairs, I know, but it makes
a difference downrange). The B.C. on the Hornady bullet is .520; however,
if you've done your own calculations at the velocity you list with the
bullet you're using, then of course your figures could be right -- but
I'd like to see your numbers if that is the case. We have some information
on the Lapua bullets being tested against the Sierra Match Kings -- perhaps
you'd be interested in reading it and then offering your comments.
Again, thanks for the load data. What brand (and model) of press
and dies do you use to handload your ammunition?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 06:27:24 (EST)
To Russell.
Lapua makes two different 170gr FMJBT bullets. One is a regular FMJ
(D46 or 47?), the other is the LockBase VLD. I'm still at work... I've
got my data at home. Another interresting load is Lapua 168gr HPBT Scenar/
45gr VV N150. Harald Stenvaag used this load to become a 300m 60 shots
free rifle UIT world champion with a perfect and unbeatable score of 600p.
Thats a 60 shot group inside 10cm (4") prone unsupported with peepsights!
Imagine fireing the 60th shot with 59 X'es on the electronic monitor...
BTW. I'm a sniper, hunter and competitionshooter. I think most people are
consentrating too much about benchrest accuracy and not about real life
hitting potetial. Most "sniper rifles" are rigs for the shootingrange.
The are definently not designed for a 2 week patrol behind enemy lines.
I only use rigs with detach scopemounts that can shoot a 5 (cold)shot group
inside 10cm at 300m (4"/330yds). The 5 shots are fired in 48 hours from
different positions. (bench, trench, prone, sitting with supported back,
etc) Scope detach and reattach between shots. Cleaning rifle after 3rd
shot. After the rifle is sorted out you need to look at other things that
improves hitting potetial at live targets. Most forgotten is time of flight.
Most "sniperrifles" in this routine will not be able to keep up with a
WW2 M98K sniper or a H&K G3 with S&B 4X22 scope/H&K mount.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 07:52:05 (EST)
I'm just about to make my first ghillie! As a former medic in the
Swedish Special Forces (Lappland (Arctic) rangers)) I don't know much about
how to make a ghillie. Though as the special forces in Sweden uses the
medics as combatants in first hand and medics in second I'm in good use
of a good camouflage while working on injured fellow soldiers. So, how
do I tie the burlap to the neting. Should I sew it on or just tie it on???
I use BDU:s (woodland camo) as a a foundation so to speak. What's the best
colour for the scandinavian forests?? If anybody could help me I'd be more
than happy!!
Mattias <mattiasbroden@hotmail.com>
Norrk÷ping, - Sweden - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 07:53:05
(EST)
It is said that the Steyr SSG cannot be rebarrelled but this
is not so. I can remove the old barrel, and install a new
one for a service charge of $300 plus the cost of the
blank of your choice (don't skimp). No need to retire a
perfectly good rifle because of a shot-out or damaged bore.
Fluting, parkerizing, sights extra.
Ned F. Christiansen <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 08:36:38 (EST)
To TorF: Yes, of course you are right, but the other 170-grain Lapua
bullet, the one I purposely didn't mention because its B.C. is nothing
at all similar to what you listed, known as the FMJ Lock Base (as you point
out), has a B.C. of .525 -- and this information comes from the same source,
my copy of PC Ballistics, which is available here on Sniper Country.
I have many manuals of load data, and I could probably find a hardcopy
listing of the Lapua bullets' B.C.s if I were to look. If you have ICQ
or AOL Instant Messenger, TorF, let's chat online sometime, about shooting
or handloading.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 09:23:54 (EST)
mattias: Three methods I have seen so far for tying burlap to netting...there
are more I am sure. Method one: With a two inch wide and 15" long strip
of burlap, tie a single knot at the center of the strip with the net running
though it. Two: Pull all the short "hairs" from the strip first, than tie
a single knot over the net with the long hairs. This looks a lot like grass
when done. Method three, and a neat one I have not tried: Do the same as
method two, using only the long hairs fron the strip, loop them over the
net just as you did before, but instead of tying a not, use a ZIP TIE.
This is a small plastic piece of plastic resembling a belt. It is often
found at automotive stores and is used to affix wire bundles together.
The neat thing about the zip tie method is that you can easily remove and
replace the strands of burlap as needed.
Bolt Action versus Semi-auto: This argument holds little water in
the modern day of the semi-auto. I still prefer a bolt gun for tactical
use, but I can no longer claim the bolt gun superior in all things. Bolt
guns will consistently outshoot service grade semi-automatic rifles, but
they will no longer outpace gas guns of MODERN design by any great margin.
Modern design. That is the key word. We are not talking about M1 Garands
or M14s with their large moving internal mass. The AR15 based gas system
has little moving mass to upset the rifle during the firing process. I
am not surprised to see the SR25 do as well as it does. A good AR15 competition
rifle or space gun will easily shoot benchrest quality groups. We are talking
sub half moa. There is a very good reason why you see so many ARs on the
line at High Power matches and it has nothing to do with "whimps" or new
kids who can not handle recoil from "real" guns. These modern gas guns
are simply extraordinarily accurate, easy to shoot, and hard to beat in
the hands of a pro. So yes, the new semi-auto designs could easily become
the standard on the battle field as an SWS. They have several advantages
over bolts in that the user does not have to expose himself due to movement
after firing, nore is he limited to a small magazine. He also can better
defend himself if, God forbid, he is ambushed or tracked down. Try fighting
off the raging hord from 15 feet with a bolt gun. It is not recomended.
The semi-auto shooters main consern is the flying brass cathcing someones
attention and also not letting his discepline falter and allowing himself
to start plinking merrily away until he runs dry. Also, maintenance is
a slightly more time consuming endeavor, but not prohibitively so. A trained
shooter is going to maintain his weapon for near flawless operation no
matter what its design. For now the bolt rules amoung the major forces
more because they have spent time and money developing those systems. They
work wonderfully so why replace them at this juncture. But eventually,
as the systems age, I could easily foresee new gas gun designs taking over.
Accuracy is no longer the problem, nor is availability. Mind set has more
to do with it than anything. Like I said, I prefer a bolt gun for tactical
shooting. That means nothing in terms of the suitability of the gas gun.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 10:31:35 (EST)
To Rick,
I know that attacking a sacred cow like the mil-dot
method will draw fire from its defenders, but here goes.
Any rangefinding method that requires the use of
a pocket calculator is a flawed method. I find that a plain
duplex crosshair to be superior in speed of estimation, as
well as slightly more accurate that the mil-dot rangefinding method.
The key is getting the right scope with the right thin opening. You may
call this a stadia wire method. to criticize the stadia wire method as
being
innacurate past 500 yards and depending on an upright standing target
is unfair, because the mil-dot method
relies on the same circumstances, or at least half of the
stationary target. Perhaps no one showed you how to use
a duplex the right way for rangefinding purposes. I will
concede that the dots on the lower quadrant are useful for
hasty elevation holds if one is very familiar with his rifle. And
i will also agree that neither method is as accurate as a laser rangefinder.
To Torf, I liked the comments about the 98 mauser
my only problem with the 8mm is I cant get my hands on any
match grade bullets in this caliber. The best I can come up
with are Sierra 175 grain spitzer flatbase. Do you know of
a better 8mm bullet, if so where can I get some here in the
states.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H, Ohio USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 19:42:25 (EST)
I love lively conversations!!! I hope if you guys don't mind if
I stir the pot a little more!!
Scott, Everything you said about semi autos is correct for match
shooting. We have yet to find a semi that holds zero after an extended
stalk and stay in the field due to debris in the gas system. This includes
the SR and AR. That is why the bolt gun remains our primary SWS. We can't
afford to lose accuracy after a movement through terrain that has fouled
the weapon. Watch the line at those meets and see how those weapons are
babied. And rightfully so, they are there to win and not to sneak around
like kids. Properly camoed and flying brass is not a problem, properly
camoed and snared brass is a problem. It will be a while before semis are
used for other than area sniper weapon systems. As far as self defense,
the SWS is bagged and an M4 is carried for self defense. The SWS is bagged
for two reasons, one no base of fire comes forth from a six shot bolt gun.
Two, SWS means sniper and that means at any range you are a primary target
and attract very unwanted attention, trust me on that one!
Steve, The Mil calculations require a calculator only if you use
the inch method. Use Height of target times 1000 divided by mils. This
gives you range to target in the units used for the height of target, ie
height meters range meters, height feet range feet. This works quite well
for head to groin 1 meter miling on average size man, 2 meters for doors,
tank height, cannon length, whatever. Add to the fact that with round 3/4
MOA mil dots you can break the mils into 10ths and with the premier 1/4
mil footballs you can break mils into 1/8ths. The Mils also allow for holds
for wind, 1/4 Mil is slightly less than 1 MOA, Leads for movers out to
whatever your gut and ego allows. 300 meters is usually where wind lead
combo begins to ruin the ego but 600 meter movers are more than possible
with training. Holds for elevation is a matter of ballistics as is a mirror
hold with 700 meters on the gun, and neither the true stadia line scope
nor a duplex will ever permit those holds. Yes I have worked with all three
extensively with military, FBI, Secret Service, and a few other agencies.
The Mil Dot is not a sacred cow it just simply works in the field under
the conditions that I must work in and without a calculator, they do break
at the darndest times!!!
Guess this got longer than I intended. Love these conversations though.
Keep the knowledge flowing. Love this site!!!
Rick <RBowcher@AOL.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 22:50:27 (EST)
Quick/easy ghillie suit: on a bolt of burlap, prior to cutting strips
(1 inch or so wide, 8-10 long), apply a camo pattern with spray paint of
a color or colors appropriate for the local conditions. This pattern should
tend to be more or less at 90 degrees from the direction in which you will
cut the strips. Some hardware stores around here carry rolls of burlap
already camo patterned. Cut the strips. On your BDUs, put a spot of cantact
cement every 3 inches or so-- I believe a ghillie can be too dense. You
can always add more later. In the middle of most strips, and towards the
end on others, put a spot of cement. You won't be able to do this all at
once as the cement has to dry to tacky but not too dry before the parts
are joined. As you stick them on, they should be oriented randomly-- not
all horizontal nor vertical. Throw it in the dryer a few minutes to fray
things properly if you feel the need, but it'll fray soon enough. Depending
on how you use it and how you glued the strips on, you will lose some
from time to time-- they are easily replaced. An advantage of not
having the strips anchored too solidly is that they will pull off before
catching on that 6 foot sapling you're crawling under and making it wave
"hello, I'm here" to everyone. Also, if you are trying to make time through
the briars, they won't slow you down, but, of course, you could say they
would leave a trail. Another good thing about this method is that it's
quick and easy for when you have to make do with what there is when you
get into town....a ghillie suit might not seem like a normal part of a
tourist's kit to some customs officials. It wouldn't have to be burlap,
could be about anything if it had to be, grass or dirt stained to suit
(o'course not every place on the planet has a True Value store on the corner
with contact cement either). The head is done by sewing an old camo tee
shirt so that it is a snug fit on the noggin so as not to impare hearing
or shift and block the vision. This has breathing holes cut in with flaps
of tee
shirt material glued on, so you're not having to do all your breathing
through the material. It is then given the same treatment of glued-on strips.
Keep the strips out of reach of the eyes, of course, so they can't blow
into your way at just the wrong moment. I have made a poncho from the como'd
burlap, it's fast to throw on, doesn't take much room folded (ghillies
are bulky!), and even though it is not "ghilled", it is a lot more effective
than BDUs. It has a hood, and the material is couse enough that vision
is
decent right through it.
Ned Christiansen <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 00:17:03 (EST)
Rick: Stir it up, man! Not since Dick Culver had more time on his
hands and would drop by the Roster, have we had a someone of your experience
and background around to get things going. Keep it up!
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 00:41:40 (EST)
100-9x@ 1000yds Greetings Bros,love to dance
David Roy <Navigator88
@hotmail.com>
Whitby, Ont Canada - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 03:03:42 (EST)
I would like comments on the difference in accuracy between repeaters
and single shots.
It's a 308 Savage 12BVSS that I am looking at.
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Va USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 07:55:16 (EST)
To Steve, RE: 8mm
I've got the same problem as you.
Sierra 175gr is the best for 8X57IS.
One can only hope that Sierra will make an 8mm 200gr MatchKing HPBT.
(they've made a MK for .303 )
I've shot a M98K converted to 8X68S. MV with Sierra 220gr SPBT was
2900fps with HEAVY recoil.
Most M98K's in Norway are converted to 308win or 30-06.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 08:45:09 (EST)
I NEED TO KNOW THE PROPER WAY TO BREAK IN MY NEW SNIPER RIFLE...ANY
SUGGESTIONS?
DOUG DUVEN <DMDUV@AOL.COM>
WATERLOO, IA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 09:05:04 (EST)
I have been tasked with locating a sniper selection program for
my agency as we are adding two more. Plaster's book has
much info but I think is makes administrative type cops nervous.
Any info having to do with selecting a sniper applicant will be greatly
appreciated. (remember I'm dealing with police administrators and they
just don't understand sometimes! Keep the good stuff coming. Any 3/5 cav
guys out there? see ya!
Joe R <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.us>
kelso, wa USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 10:26:29 (EST)
How to break in a sniper rifle? Check out Andy Webber's site:
http://www.armament.com/clean.htm
Not planning on doing anything else over the weekend, are you?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 10:38:50 (EST)
Rick wrote:
"We have yet to find a semi that holds zero after an extended stalk
and stay in the field due to debris in the gas system. This includes the
SR and AR. That is why the bolt gun remains our primary SWS. We can't afford
to lose accuracy after a movement through terrain that has fouled the weapon.
Watch the line at those meets and see how those weapons are babied. And
rightfully so, they are there to win and not to sneak around like kids."
I have to take exception to that: I do not 'baby' my SR25 at the
match! We do not have the mats, gloves, cute little chairs, etc. that you
see at the high-power matches. What we shoot is what we pack to the 1000-yard
line and back. We don't cancel our matches on account of rain or because
we don't like to get muddy, my near-record score was shot in the middle
of a downpour. When the targets pop up and I have 40 seconds for 3 shots
from a standing start, I don't ease that big, black rifle down, it goes
down NOW!
OK, I'll admit, even then the matches are not comparable to a field
stalk for putting stress on equipment. (Though I understand at least a
couple of SR-25s have made the course at Storm Mountain.) I haven't deliberately
dropped my Stoner on a rock just to see what would happen, but I'm willing
to believe it might not take that treatment as easily as a well-constructed
bolt gun. Do you have more details about what kind of problems the SR-25
experienced and whether or not their source was identified?
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 14:31:46 (EST)
Grasshopper:
Sorry man didn't mean that as an insult to your style of shooting.
I had heard so many "paper shooters" talk about the accuracy they can get
with their semi autos that I do become defensive. The great M21 debacle
and the fight in 85-86 to get the bolt gun SWS off the ground has me sensitive
to the subject.
We do try semi autos, we have worked the M21/25, AR, SR, H&Ks
SWS, the Galil SWS, and several others, all lost accuracy in a field environment
after an airborne insertion, travel through variuos terrain siuations and
an extended stalk. Period in the field ran from 36 hours to 5 days. The
problem is changes in barrel impulse as the weapon becomes dirty. Normal
field cleaning does not solve the problem. This is why we are requiring
only 600 meter accuracy with the sniper support system. We are looking
at it in terms of defensive fire, and secondary supporting fire in a target
enrich environment. I know only too well the limitations on a bolt gun
that cannot lay down suppressing fire, nor can you hold terrain with the
weapon. Choices are run or DIP.
The SR and AR are both fine weapons and there are other fine weapons
out there to be used by shooters. In the tactical world I live in I MUST
trust my weapon and until proven diffrently that weapon will be a bolt
gun. Remember, you can operate the bolt as fast as you want to while you
have to "wait" on the gas to operate the bolt on a semi.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:18:44 (EST)
Count me in.
I'm ready for the big one.
Sexy Eyeball Man <butterpies@hotmail.com>
marion , IN USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:43:01 (EST)
Rick,
Are you implying that you can be on target and ready for a follow
up shot before the bolt on a semi-auto cycles? If so, you're a lot faster
than I am (which is quite possible). My Stoners (Match and Carbine) definitely
keep ahead of me!
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Gig Harbor, WA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:51:36 (EST)
To Tom Scott: I am uniquely qualified to answer your question. I
bought a Savage 112BVSS-S in .300 Winchester Magnum solely because
I wanted the action. There is no extra machining step to remove the metal
in the bottom of the receiver for a magazine, and switch-barrel tests by
Savage engineers proved beyond any doubt that, although slim, there is
a distinct improvement in accuracy when using the single-shot action versus
one with an opening cut out for a magazine. Simply, this is due to the
extra rigidity of the action. I spoke with one of my contacts at Savage
Arms at some length about this, and it was based on this discussion that
I based my decision to have my custom-built .338/378 Weatherby Magnum built
on the Savage single-shot action. Now, I'm NOT speaking for, nor about,
OTHER brands of rifles, but it stands to reason that any metal that is
not removed is likely to make the action stronger, more rigid, and a bit
more likely to aid accuracy. Oh, and I just LOVED the article in one magazine
recently (Shooter's News or Tactical Shooter), that claimed that the Savage
action was incapable of withstanding the pressures from larger magnums,
and that it wasn't possible to open up the bolt face -- or words to that
effect. Well, the "nay sayers" will have a little surprise in a month or
so.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 16:04:02 (EST)
To Torf,
I agree, it is long time past due that Sierra came up with a good
match grade boattail bullet in 8mm. I personaly would like to see one about
196 gr. with a b.c. .500
By the way I also have bull barrel 8mm-06 ackley improved 98 I can
get 2950 fps with the 175 Sierra and sub M.O.A.
To Rick,
I never said that the mil-dot method didn't work, I just
find it slow and complicated.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Target is 2 yards
tall at a range of 775 yards. Now lets see how the answer
works out with your mil-dot method. 2 yards * 1000 = 2000
ok so far, I didnt need a calculator for that. thru the scope the
target appears less than 3 mils high but greater than 2 mils high. so I
carefully estimate the size of the little footballs and imagine that they
are laying on top of
each other up to the span of the target, and i guess that
the target spans maybe 2.6 OR 2.7 OR perhaps 2.55 mils
now tell me quick, what is 2000 divided by 2.6 without a pocket
calculator.
Now lets take a scope that I like. A weaver T-10 with a duplex reticule
The thin opening measures 9 1/4 inches exactly at 100 yards. I look at
the target and find that
it fits the thin opening perfectly and I say to myself,
height 72 inches range = 720 meters.
Familiarity with all things breeds competence. I will take you at
your word that you can esitmate range without a pocket calculator with
the mil-dots. Most of us can't though, unless the range just happens to
be at a convienant distance
Oh yes, you are quite right about the mil-dots being useful
for wind hold offs also. I forgot to mention that in my earlier
post.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H, Ohio USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 19:18:10 (EST)
Jay, Guess I just showed my age, That is an old joke between bolt
gunners and semi auto users. It was first pulled on me by an officer I
was briefing on bolt versus semi for sniper purposes in early 70s. He wanted
to know why we carried a bolt gun when the army had a perfectly good M21
that won all those matches.
Steve, I'm so happy your range happened to fit right in your duplex.
Unfortunately that seldom occurs in life. Also a better reading on the
hieght would have occured for you had you stood the "target" on top of
a football. If it reached the bottom of the third football the height would
of been 2.75. If it was below the football then set the bottom of the target
on the bottom of a football and estimate how much it is above the second
football or below the half way point, which ever is nearest. This will
give you a much closer estimate of the Mil height. Just as you have memorized
certain key elements of you reticule, we do the same in conversions. It
also helps that our Mil Dots are in 3/4 MOA round dots, this permits Miling
in increaments of tenths which is also easier. As has been said before,
it is what the individual is used to and trained in that is easiest for
that individual.
Keep the discussions going and share the knowledge, this is how I
keep my old mind from rusting!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 20:44:17 (EST)
HELP!
I have received reports that the Army is no longer using the M25
and that SOCOM has recalled all SR-25s. If you have information on either
issue, please e-mail me directly.
Thanks,
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere The Good Ole U.S. of A. - Saturday, April 04, 1998
at 19:43:58 (EST)
This is a truly informative site. As a beginner to the long range
shooting scene I have found your site quite helpful and will check back
regularly. Keep up the good work guys!
JJ <bait@mailexcite.com>
- Saturday, April 04, 1998 at 21:08:06 (EST)
greetings agin. sorry to be such a negative spot on a great site
but thought i would let you know fyi. i just finished watching the video
"the ultimate sniper" and found it not only drawn out but also basically
non-imformative except for the very short section on mil dot reading. perhaps
i am a little premature on my review as i understand it is meant to be
accompanied by the book. just thought the video would be better and more
time saving than sitting to read. still waiting for the arrival of my 308
savage 110 and look forward to the expected results i hope to obtain with
it.
gil david <gildavid@msn.com>
albany, ga USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 07:20:13 (EDT)
Has anyone heard the latest stupid thing happening? It seems that
because of the recent violence in Arkansas involving the shooting of the
children, some school systems are banning the wearing of camouflage clothing.
Am I the only one that can see the stupidity with this? It seems that the
current trend of school wear is appropriate. You can go to any school in
this Country and see that a very large number of the students look like
gang members. It is alright to look like a gang member, but not a hunter.
We all know that hunters kill far more people every year than gang members
do. (Sarcasm) I for one will have a hard time clothing my son when he goes
to school, because his favorite clothes are his camouflage ones. This has
not happened in my local school district, but if it does, I will be at
that school board raising hell. I hope that everyone else will also. Just
another example of blame shifting. I strongly agree that what happened
in Arkansas was terrible, and I feel badly for all people
involved, but shifting the blame to the clothes that they were wearing
is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard of. I will get of my
soapbox now. Any other comments?
Randy Stoddard <atoz@galstar.com>
Ponca City, Okla USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 15:15:29 (EDT)
One of the few things the ACLU is good for is defending the First
Amendment. The ACLU has litigtated successfully to overturn unconstitutional
dress codes. They probably will do so with these "camouflage" bans.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 22:36:08 (EDT)
gil: For what it's worth, I felt the same way about MAJ Plaster's
video. Low on substance, long-running, and somewhat lacking in production
quality. Russ Taylor will tell you (probably) that the video is meant to
be viewed with the book and the video "fills in the gaps" of the book.
Beats me. I thought it dragged!
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 03:12:03 (EDT)
To the ghillie guys: Two quick things to think about--1. Remember
that your ghillie suit is only a base for your camo. Try using a good blend
of colors (greens and browns) that will blend in various types of vegetation.
The use of 550 cord strips tied into the netting for the addition of natural
vegetation was a good point brought up in earlier comments. 2. Try not
to get tunnelvision on the thought of only using burlap as garnish on a
ghillie suit. Jagged cut strips of tafeta work extremely well. For anyone
not knowing , tafeta is a light weight nylon material. Coated tafeta is
used to make ponchos. You can get it in an array of colors to include camo
patterns. When burlap gets wet in the field it is heavy for one, it turns
dark and it does not move at all when the wind is blowing.Tafeta doesn't
get heavy, it doesn't turn dark and it blows freely in a leaf like fashion.Your
ghillie will also roll up alot smaller when putting it in your ruck sack.
I am not completely putting down burlap, it is good to mix in with the
tafeta to give it a clumpy, grassy undergrowth look to it.
Eric <sem308@aol.com>
TX USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 04:52:16 (EDT)
Immmm Back!!! Been out of town...man, can you all come up with lively
topics in three short days!
Semi-autos: I agree that traditionally, the semi was not the way
to go for long term accuracy. My previous comments do have some back ground
in High Power, true, but with a properly built AR system, sight changes
seem rare, or I have not abused my to the same level as Rick. With a free
float tube, true heavy barrel, and proper powder, the AR has been pretty
totally reliable in my experience. As I said earier, drop an M21 from 5
feet and you are out of business, drop an AR from higher and it generally
will not notice. I am talking a purpose BUILT rifle here, not a rack grade
system, although they hold up fairly well. Long term fouling is an issue
in any system, but as we are talking about sniper systems, it is realistic
to think a dedicated sniper will not clean and maintain his system religiously?
If the AR gas tube ever get so bad it needs replacing, it only takes about
5 minutes to do this job. But again, with modern powder, the tube doesn't
really foul.
Rick said:
"We do try semi autos, we have worked the M21/25, AR, SR, H&Ks
SWS, the Galil SWS, and several others, all lost accuracy in a field environment
after an airborne insertion, travel through variuos
terrain siuations and an extended stalk. Period in the field ran
from 36 hours to 5 days. The problem is changes in barrel impulse as the
weapon becomes dirty. Normal field cleaning does not solve the problem.
"
My question is, were these rack grade service rifles or weapons built
for the sniper role? Also, if they were sniper systems, how often were
they cleaned by the users? As an infantry troop, I let cleaning chores
go for longer periods, but I can not think of any sniper who would dare
do this unless totally stressed in a target rich and dynamic environment.
Anyway, I would agree that the day of the semi has not arrived yet.
But it may not be that far off. Like you Rick, I STILL am a bolt guy. I
just like to consider the alternatives.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 15:38:40 (EDT)
Scott,
All weapons were dedicated to the sniper role and built specifically
for that role. While they are getting better we still have problems. Cleaning
a weapon after a stalk into view of your target is not an option, you must
shoot what you have in hand. We have protected the weapons every way possible
and still had problems. The big thing right now is that one time there
may not be a shift or problem and the next time or two there will be a
problem. I just can't risk that time or two. Cleaning the weapons is a
constant ongoing process and yes we can be fanatical about it. Again it
goes with the territory.
I will admit that if they show me a semi that will stay up then I'll
be glad to shift over. As I said, defending yourself with a six shoot bolt
gun .308 or four shot Mag, is just a little tiring and wears on the morale.
Come on guys if you know of a good semi let me know, the SO arena
is still in test phase for a new semi weapon.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 15:54:19 (EDT)
just picked up stephen hunters "new" book, "second saladin" and
have read the first 9 chapters. seems to be another good read for the gun
people. has anyone read it yet. if not i'll give you a review in a couple
of days. also recommend some good videos on concellment and tactics. thanks
in advance
gil david <gildavid@msn.com>
albany, ga USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 01:26:45 (EDT)
To Gil David: I enjoyed the Plaster video, in fact all three of
them that I own. Let me say, however, that the very first thing I do is
figure out the intended audience -- and I do this with books as well as
videotapes. You must realize, and I'm sure you do, that many of us on this
Roster have varying degrees of, shall I say, "expertise" in areas of marksmanship,
tactics, and fieldcraft -- Plaster's three tenets of sniping. You probably
have no military experience, Gil, and if that is the case, then you'll
easily think the tape "drags." Having seen more than my fair share of military
videos and other training-oriented tapes, I can tell you that Plaster's
is one of the better ones out there. It actually does "teach." It's
intended for those who have an interest in sniping but don't have much
of a background in it. Anyone with a solid foundation on the subject will
possibly be bored. I can tell you that about 40 other instructors, while
I was teaching MS 202 Combined Arms Operations at West Point, were riveted
by the material on the tape, and requested to see it over and over again
-- and some lively "review" discussions ensued some of the viewing sessions.
So it's all in the intention of the presenter and the education level of
the target audience. Yes, as Mr. Bain said I would, I must point out to
you that the videotape is best viewed in conjunction with having the book
on hand as well. And the two, when combined, make for a pretty stout resource
on sniping. Training videos hit people differently. While I can follow
Plaster's TUS tape -- often stopping and replaying various portions
to catch a particular point he's making -- others, watching ANY videotape,
can be bored unless there's a lot of shooting, explosions, and "exciting
stuff." Training tapes just aren't like that, though, and I can tell you
that most are worse than you perceived Plaster's tape. I reviewed a tape,
a couple of years ago, that just... well... oh, Hell, to be bloody honest
about it, the thing really sucked! And, as tactfully as I ever get
(which isn't by much, as the SC staff will tell you), I told the producer
of the tape that it might be better for him to reevaluate his target audience
and consider revamping the tape a bit.
Gil, if you'd take some time to write to me, I'd be glad to give
you some ideas about other references you may want to consider. I'd also
direct your attention to our Bibliography
page where you'll find (and this is NO joke) the best source of sniper-related
references anywhere on the Internet. And I assure you, Gil, Mr. Bain works
very hard to keep it that way, as do other members of our staff,
such as Garry Blosser.
Thanks for your comments, Gil, it's good to hear from you.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 02:52:41 (EDT)
Mr Bain: Thanks for your info, I "obtained" the FBI manual
you told me about.
Things I learned @ recent advanced sniper school
1. Ghille suits are impossible to wear in blackberrys.
2. Mil dot scopes hard to read in dark.
Keep up the good work.
Joe R <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, WA USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 10:02:48 (EDT)
Ghillies !
To all Fuzzy Triggerpullers.
Don't forget that you are in the middle of a Wad of Tinder when wearing
the G-suit. And war tends to be a unpleasant season with fire etc. .
I have fireproofed (retarded) all my Ghillies with a solution available
here from manufacturers of Curtains Seats for Cinemas etc. With the fire
codes the way they are in the US you should get this type of stuff pretty
easy.
Spraying it on with a flower/garden type pump spray bottle works
fine. I add a little olive cloth dye to the solution so it is easier to
see which part is treated. It also gives a new Ghillie a little used look.
Our Sniper code is ATN 300 10 86 is this NATO standard ?
I now the Marine Corps is diffrent. Any Nato Snipers out there ?
Horrido !
Torsten PS I really liked the Egg in a Ghillie
(Kiwi)
Torsten Erning Ofw.d.R. <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 13:18:42 (EDT)
Two items of interest.
Today, I bought an ArmaLite Action Master in .223 Remington -- this
is the kind of flat top model I've wanted for so long.
Also, I'm going to be in Wiesbaden, Germany, during 13-27 Jun 98,
and it'd be nice to have a beer with some of you "EuroSnipers" if we can
manage to find each other.
Oh, heck. Now I need a scope for ANOTHER rifle. Woe is
me. Hey, prairie dogs, anyone?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 15:51:52 (EDT)
Just read a proof sheet from the May, 1998 issue of Tactical Shooter,
specifically, page 62. TS has gotten the preeminent law of war expert in
the U.S., COL W. Hays Parks, to write on Military MatchKing use.
Parks lays out in one page the real story behind the Hague Convention,
"dum dum" bullets, and sniper-use of open tip bullets. The arm-chair law
of war experts can sit down and shut up; Parks has spoken!
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, , Anywhere, USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 18:31:10 (EDT)
To Jay,
I wouldn't worry too much about what Rick says about
how slow the semi-auto is compared too his bolt action.
He is just pulling your leg, (sort of).
The only way to operate a bolt action faster than a semi-
auto is using the Hawkins position, and the
(bad finger) technique of bolt manipulation.
It is only a rare occasion field conditions permit
the use of the Hawkins postion, and everyone knows that
the bad finger technique is not worth a crap for hitting
kiwi fruit at 500 yards. {Well no more than a half dozen or
so anyway.}
Rick,
I know this goes against your motto of "One Shot One Kill"
but have you ever considered wasting the first round of the
magazine to clear the gas system of debris. and then using the
second round for the serious stuff. For shots past 500 yards,
the time of flight should allow for plenty of time for the
second round to be fired before the first round gets there.
(slow cycle time and all). For shots under 500 yards, just resist
the head shots. Have you ever tried those heavy duty camo
condoms yet. :)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 19:05:51 (EDT)
Plaster Video: Only real problem is content. It tends to lack in
detail. For the most part it is interesting and easy to follow, but I felt
he glossed over a lot of info. A longer tape could have been in order.
The book is a must read. Just view the video as eye candy to accompany
the hard copy.
Steve: The idea of a fouling shot, or anti fouling in this case,
is not to smart a proposition as you may only have ONE shot in a lot of
situations. For the cop, this is always the rule. A soldier may have more
leeway, but counting on this is fool hardy, whether with a bolt gun or
a semi-auto. Granted, a snuffy can just nail the enemy with a body hit
and go home, but you still want that first shot reliability.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 20:40:16 (EDT)
Coming Soon: A review on the BlackStar process! For all of you who
have been waiting, thank you for your patience!
Scott <Xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 20:42:07 (EDT)
a year or so ago I followed a link from you page to a site which
listed active duty sniper's. Some of those guy's were friends I have served
with and I have not been able to find it again. Could you tell me where
that was?
Thanks for the help.
Active duty Sniper.
Active Duty <or0652@exmail.usma.army.mil>
NY USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 23:00:15 (EDT)
To "Active Duty:" I suspect you'll find the link you're looking
for on either our links page or our training page. I'm guessing it might
have been a SEALs site, but without more information from you I can't offer
much more help than that. Good luck to you.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 01:09:26 (EDT)
Thanks again for a good site!
To Rick: Thank you for the comment a while back in response
to my ramblings about scopes. I totally agree with you that
the Leupold MK IV is an excellent choice and perhaps the best
and most practical one the market today. However, up here we
pay Cdn $ 1 700 for it and that is sometimes hard to justify
for the individual shooter. The choices mentioned are a lot
less expensive and they seem to stand up very well.
Regarding Mil-Dot reticles: I like them and find them rather
easy to use, once you get used to one. Nightforce, Springfield
Armory, and some other makes have a quicker system, but they
might not be as versatile in use.
Repeatability when adjusting for range - if you don't want
to use the Mil-Dot reticle for holdover - I find very important,
and this is where a rugged, purposely constructed scope comes
into the picture. A regular hunting/target scope just can't
take it, regardless of brand. The exception might be the
T-series Weaver that have excellent adjustments.
From the Duty Roster/July 1996, I enjoyed JRF's comments
about scopes, and the ones from US Optics in particular!
Anybody have any (updated) comments about these scopes?
Regards,
Hans, BC,Canada
Hans
BC Canada - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 01:53:54 (EDT)
Russell Taylor !
Keep me informed on your Wiesbaden travel agenda.
Will you be in the North as well ?
If you are active or reserve Mil. then I may be able to get you
on a shoot with us. Scoped G-3 , G-36, and Mauser 86SR.
Good Hunting
Torsten
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 08:42:12 (EDT)
Bolt/semi comment: I'm having a very hard time getting my guys to
recycle their bolts after a shot. Remember the Good Guys store!! One shot,
one kill is fine, but RELOADING and looking for more is better. Is it just
my guys??? The semi auto guys I've shot with seem to do fine. This is law
enforcement types though...Don't know how extended field duty would affect
the semi auto in a military environment.
Was called out on 040598 2230 hrs for barricaded w/m who had slashed
his daughter's face and arm with a broken dinner plate. Suspect fled in
vehicle and a pursuit initiated. Roadblock was put in place and the suspect
drove his car (85 G.P.) directly @ Deputy who was outside his vehicle on
shoulder. Deputy drew and fired 2 rounds from Smith M59. First round hit
bumper (cops always shoot 1st round low for some reason) second hit hood/windshield
without penetration. Suspect struck Deputy, breaking his leg, and returned
home.
Suspect residence is built over a garage. Has a sliding glass door
and one window to North, no windows/doors to East, 2 windows to South,
2 windows and door to West. Master bedroom in NE corner w/slider and balcony.
secured a position across the street to the North, 47 yards out. Suspect
observed to change clothing 3 times in 5 hours. 2 additional sniper teams
arrived @ 0200 hrs and were assigned SE and W sides. All within 100 yds.
Power and phone terminated. 4 man swat team on East wall, 4 man team on
West wall. Negotiations continued until 0640 hrs. Suspect
surrendered. This is my third callout to this residence since 1983.
Suspect has two prior felony assault convictions on family members. Beat
wife in face with house brick, fired 3 rounds of 12 ga inside residence
during a family beef. Facing 2 counts of assault 1 (attempted murder)...
We have a "3 strike" rule in this state. 3 serious felonies and you get
life. We'll see.
As we were securing, suspects wife approached me and complained
that we took too long, didn't want the team to go in the house to confirm
it was cleared, and was angry that we turned the power off. I advised that
her tax dollars were at work! Stay Safe/JR
Joe R <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 11:02:29 (EDT)
Go Joe! Our hopes are that the Deputy will heal quickly and the
suspect stays behind bars for a long while.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 11:30:11 (EDT)
Ultimate gun: 16,5" smoothbore.
Bullet: 500 ibs DSFS.
Powder: 1000 ibs M8M
MV: 7200fps (!!)
Accelleration: 13000g
Have fun: http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/GeraldBullInfo.html
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 16:34:39 (EDT)
I've got a few questions:
Does a recoil compensator inherently affect accuracy? My father enjoys
going to the range and shooting my Savage 110, but the recoil is too much
for him. This got me thinking about comps and their affect on performance.
Does anyone have any experience with screw-on type compensators?
Anyone have any advice on bipods for the Choate/Plaster stock?
Need advice on a new tactical scope (Under $500). What's a good choice?
Russel: Thanks for all your advice and comments. Much appreciated...
Thanks for any input.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Kansas USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 21:54:57 (EDT)
Does anyone know where I can locate a 2X teleconverter
that will fit the Leupold VariX II 6-18x40? I've heard about them,
I've
read about them, but I cannot find one! Thanks in advance
for the help.
Scott Williams <swilliam@oak.kcsd.k12.pa.us>
Lock Haven, PA USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 23:35:31 (EDT)
Regarding all the mil-dot reticle discussion: Chris Thomas (Premier
Reticle)
installed what he calls a modified mil-dot reticle in my 'scope
which has mil-dots on the 9, 12, and 3 o'clock quadrants of the
reticle,
which offers more than enough ranging tools, and on the 6 o'clock
quadrant
he has installed holdover dots based on my rounds' ballistics and
other salient information based on my general shooting environment
at 100 yard increments out to 1,000 yards with the reticle intersection
being zeroed at 300 yards. These yardage dots work real well, as
I
have managed first round hits from known distances of 500 to 800
yards,
and the shooting wasn't done on any range, either! This was across
the hollow, hit that rock
kind of shooting.
Scott Williams <swilliam@oak.kcsd.k12.pa.us>
Lock Haven, PA USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 00:11:15 (EDT)
This past weekend I once again had the pleasure of firing my weapons
at Storm Mountain Training Center. Thanks to Rod and his family for an
awesome range.
My question is in regards to the .338 Win Mag used in sniping. Does
anyone have any special loads worked up that they would be willing to share?
I have found that this rifle although heavy in the recoil department is
extremely accurate. My shots this weekend at 650 yards were nothing for
this rifle. By the way it is a Browning A-Bolt that has been fiberglass
bedded...Thats it!! I shot a 14" group at 650. Is this a good group at
that range "5 shots".
Lou Montgomery <loumont@hereintown.net>
McCoole, MD USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 02:16:38 (EDT)
To Torsten: I'll certainly keep you apprised of my itinerary as
best I know it. I will be in Germany for two weeks of training (I'm a soldier
in the Army Reserve). I'll look forward to any "trigger time" you can arrange.
Sniper Country is a global operation, and it certainly benefits
the visitors of our website when we can include shooting- and sniper-related
information as often as possible. I would someday like to tour some of
the fine arms manufacturers, and perhaps some of the optics makers, in
Europe. Since the unit I'm assigned to sends contingents of soldiers to
Germany on a regular basis, this may be possible.
I've also been a fan of Gerald Bull's work for many years. I followed
his career while he was alive. Quite a guy. I miss him. Truly a man of
vision. (I wonder if there's any correlation between my admiration of Gerald
Bull and my fascination with powerful rifles and handguns. Hmmm.)
To Joe R. : Sorry about the deputy's busted leg. I can only hope
that the offender gets what is coming to him. I'm rather sensitive
to issues of domestic abuse, and it would make my day to learn that "Mr.
Brick-in-the-Face" receives some, well, uh... attitude adjustment.
On the matter of recycling bolts -- I am reminded of the comments by several
professional hunters who say that the NUMBER ONE complaint they have about
most of their clients is that the latter tend to want to admire their shots.
Understandably, when dangerous game is involved, standing there admiring
your shot is not well advised. I don't have this problem, and tend
to recycle as soon as the previous shot is away. You might consider range
practices where the officers are penalized when the targets don't go down.
You'd need to be sporadic with this type of training, so they got the idea
that they're supposed to keep shooting as long as the target is up. I blame
Hollywood for the idiocy of today's youth, because too many times it only
takes one shot to make the bad guy "go away." Real life is not like
that, as in my favorite (reference) case of the doped up robber who took
18 rounds of 125-grain .357 magnum slugs before falling over. His blood
was "orangeish-green" because of all the chemicals he'd been dumping into
his body -- LSD, PCP, and God only knows what other initials, too.
Of course, you could always shoot at your officers until they learned to
recycle their bolts -- but no doubt your department has a policy against
this. They'll learn. Or they'll die. It's pretty simple.
To Matt: Scope, Tasco Sniper (see our review). Compensators can ruin
accuracy though this is not often the case (they reduce felt recoil and/or
muzzle flip. Anytime you hang things off the end of your barrel, you're
tempting the gods. What I will say, though, is that I have used muzzle
brakes with great success and am quite pleased with the reduction in recoil
(read, "pain"). For your Choate stock, I'm happy with my M-85 bipods, but
you might want to look at the Versa-Pod (see our review). When the weather
in my area permits, I'll get a review done of the Choate/Plaster stock.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 03:42:58 (EDT)
A very good site on armour and related itens like.
Go to Tankers forum/messtent.
The topics about about tankguns tankammo and ballistics are exellent.
The website has a good design for discussion, deviding them into
topics.
Heavy Metal: http://www.airfax.com/tanks/
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 03:59:38 (EDT)
I think this page is great. Please set up a page with the best snipers
in history, with confirmed kills, country of origin and what conflict(s)
they served in.
Henrik Bylund <henrik.bylund@sundsvall.mail.telia.com>
Sundsvall, Sweden - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 09:37:09 (EDT)
Here is another call for a page with the greatest snipers in history,
complete with confirmed and uncomfirmed kills and a short bio. What would
be REALLY neat is if you could find some current or ex-snipers who are
willing (and able) to tell us some war stories, advice, and techniques.
Same thing for law enforcement if possible. I know this is asking for a
lot, but what price knowledge?:-) Has anyone out there used White Feather
ammo? Opinions? Here is something more realistic...Could the gods of Sniper
Country use the depthless fountain of their immenent wisdom to give us
plebes and wannabes a set of record group sizes at various ranges? Firearm/load
included please. This would enable us mere mortals to see a standard by
which we could judge ourselves by. Seriously and honestly we need this
info. Pretty please with some sugar ontop?:-) Good hunting....
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 13:00:07 (EDT)
Simply outstanding.
k.m. nelson <ahnelson@netcom.com>
fremont, ca USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 14:48:07 (EDT)
Anyone got any ideas on how to permanently subdue the shine of my
stainless CAR-15 barrel? Good shooter for a short barrel, and nice size
to hump around when you've got all the other normal mission kit. How about
using a vortex flash suppressor on a 7.62 bolt gun? Works well in .223,
especially at first/last light, so I would like to have its benefits for
my primary weapon.
MCpl Ben Klick <bklick@sprint.ca>
Edmonton, Alberta Canada - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 20:19:51 (EDT)
Guys, don't get me wrong here. When I talk about the semi autos,
I'm talking about my situation. In LEA the semi works very well, especially
when you have to do follow on shots and/or have multiple targets that out
number the availble shooters. Match your equipment with your situation
and mission. One size does not fit all and if in your environment the AR
or SR works then use it.
Joe R. I use a cleaning rod to the hand of any student that doesn't
cycle immediately after shooting. Of course the army does have slightly
diffrent training parameters than LEA. Only kidding, practice and competition
works the best. Especially with the A type personnality necessary in the
LEA community. Use multiple targets and very short time periods. If you
have access to a KD range with pits, then place a head sized target on
2x2 that is long enough to expose the target above the butts. raise the
target randomly over a 5 to 7 meter front and give the shooter a 3 sec
exposure. After three seconds drop the target, move to another location
and raise the target after 5 to 7 seconds. This will get their attention
when a penaly in incurred for each unfired round and or miss. Use your
imagination for penaly. Loser cleans everybody else's kit is a start.
Steve, a fouling shot is not practical in our line of work. Also
the build up of junk is not in the barrel and a shot could actually make
the problem worst.
Scott, A 2x converter may not be a good idea. There are problems
incurred with the teleconverters, such as increased mirage distortion,
focusing problems, and your 40 will become a 20 with a quartering of light
transmittance, thus a very dark field of view. I really reccommend against
the use of the of the 2x teleconverter.
Keep the discussions going guys, I love this site!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 22:34:41 (EDT)
I was in a "product training" meeting today at ArmaLite. Very interesting.
Just wanted to post my comments on the ELCAN and ACOG sights. Both are
well made for their intended purpose and each had an interesting reticle.
I've always been against the U.S. Army's technique of compensating for
pathetic marksmanship training by introducing a piece of equipment, but
-- I can see how the ACOG, with the TA01 reticle, could help Private Snuffy
get the job done. As I understand the ranging method of the ELCAN, you
place the upperhalf of a man-sized target between the two thin lines that
extend to the right (from the top of what looks like "the Washington Monument,"
as the presenter explained it), and then slip the range adjustment on the
sight appropriately. It's alright, nothing against it, but I preferred
the TA01 reticle in the ACOG for ranging. With it, you base "shoulder width"
as the foundation of your range estimations, and you can QUICKLY determine
the distance to a man-sized target from 100 to 800 yards.
It was mentioned that a few users of the ACOG report that the reticle
tends to look like it is "flapping its wings" -- that is, that the outer
left- and right-most extents of the horizontal line can appear to move
up and down (with the center remaining "motionless") if the shooter moves
his head while peering through the sight. This is not a "design flaw,"
but was the result of how the issue of parallax was addressed. The point
of impact and point of aim are unaffected by this (possibly) perceived
"flexing," and the shooter, once properly trained to ignore this flexing
(if he or she even notices it), can VERY quickly engage a target with first-round
hits. According to the ArmaLite catalog, the TA01 reticle is red at night.
Anyone having any experience with the ELCAN, what do you think of
it?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 03:15:19 (EDT)
In the beginning of the 80'ies I competed on an international level,
UIT moving target.
I competed sometimes against the US Shoting Team from Fort Benning.
One of the US teammembers I met was a former sniper.
He had served in Vietnam.
He told me that he sometimes used a rifle in .25-06 and that he had
kills with it.
Any comments?
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 09:14:42 (EDT)
Norma has a new powder called MRP-2.
It's slower than the regular MRP.
It is designed for overbore rounds like 30-378 etc. (It's probably
used in the factoryround)
Should be great in .25-06, .264WM, 7mm STW, etc.
Have not tested it yet.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 09:23:47 (EDT)
Nathan: We'll have to look into your request about acceptable group
sizes at range. Did you want actual sizes shot during cometitive events,
or just averages for standard weapon systems we have experimented with?
Just to give you a primer, my rifle (700 PSS) averages about .5 @ 100,
and .8 at 200. These are five shot groups and usually four go into one
large hole. The gods have ordained that I NEVER keep all five in there!
Mr. Bain's AT1-M24 is capable of a three shot four inch group at 900+ yards.
I know this because I fired three rounds into a head sized target at that
range. Time span of about three minutes. I will try to get some figures
for you, on what you can expect from a tuned SWS, but like everything else
in this world, the disclaimer will have to read, "shot on a particular
day with a particular load, in so and so wind...ad nauseum". What you do
not want is a rifle only capable of placing 5 shots into 14 inches at 600
yards like someone mentioned earlier. That is very bad accuracy at over
2 moa. Ideally you want to hold AT LEAST one moa at range. On a no wind
day any rifle that would interest us, or you for that matter, should be
able to shoot a 6" group @ 600 yards. Many can do better. I'll have more
imperical data on the PSS this June as I will be taking it through another
counter sniper course. Maybe Russ and get you some long range data on the
Savage. Mr. Bain should be able to provide you better info on the M21 and
M24. Also, for you heavy barreled AR15 shooters, if you are not well below
sub moa, something is amiss. Good idea Nathan, doign research on this should
prove interesting!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 10:42:50 (EDT)
Has anyone else been harassed by e-mail by someone named "Mercman"?
Mercman@kalama.com Seems the "Mercenary" is willing to trash my chosen
path for a career as a Police Officer wanting to get on the SERT team as
a Marksman but won't sign his name. I was wondering if anyone else has
had the same problem...
Nathan, thanks for the tips, and, of course, I am planning on being
the best (insert job title here) when I get hired on in an agency first.
I enjoy long range shooting and was pretty darn good at it as a Marine,
and will pursue it further whether or not I get on a SERT team. Prarie
dogging is a State Sport in Eastern Oregon. But a .338 Lapua would be overkill...
Anyway, I am learning a lot from the site and am letting my schoolwork
pile up beside me while I peruse this site in particular. Good luck in
OK at Muskogee PD.
Has anyone had much experience with the H-S Precision rifles? How
does the company rate? How do the rifles rate?
Michael Roberts <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Vernonia, Oregon USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 13:27:58 (EDT)
In reference to Nathan's request about rifle performance, I am asking
anyone interested to send me any data they have compiled on their particular
weapons accuracy at range. I would prefer this data to be that which you
have verified more than once or twice as repeatable accuracy. We have all
shot those incredibly tight groups at ridiculous ranges in our time. Repeatable
accuracy is what we are looking for here, not the once in a blue moon aberration.
For these purposes, I would like any data you have on your group size at
ranges starting at 300 and extending out to 1000 yards. Preferably, you
will have shot an average of five groups at any or all of these ranges,
but I would like to hear about your experiences regardless. I will eventually
post an article presenting the results. Please be honest in your assessment
of you favorite rifles accuracy. If it shoots into .3 at times but consistently
posts a .6 average, tell me the latter. Data for the mid to far ranges
would be of most help as many rifles lose their ability to hold m.o.a after
several hundred yards.
Please include rifle type, modifications if any, caliber, load data,
and scope type. Wind data would be helpful if you have it.
Thanks all. You can consider this a group project and I welcome all
useful input.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 14:43:19 (EDT)
Joe R: Rick's comment about using a cleaning rod across the knuckles
of the wayword shooter is no joke. Or shouldn't be. Stress is a very good
developer of memory. While induced stress may not be understood in this
modern feel good society, it still remains one of the most effective ways
of getting a student, any student, to sit up and pay close attention. Try
to "abuse" your shooters a little. While you might not be able to hit them
with a small stick (this works!) you can find other ways to make them miserable.
Hee hee. You will be amazed at how well they begin to retain the info you
wish to instill upon them. Example. I let my elbow stick out a while back
when playing around with entry team tactics. The instructor whacked me
good with his hand against my elbow. Guess what? It doesn't come up no
mo! Simple, but effective.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 14:54:30 (EDT)
Just a word on semi-versus bolt action. The sniper is not supposed
to get involved in a shoot out. Remember the old saying one shot one kill.
Not 10 rapid shots and 6 kills thats not sniping thats an ambush. Im not
saying if you shoot a semi your wasting ammo im saying its easy to engage
too many targets with a semi.
Now you can jump on me
Take care all.............
Scott
<reconsuply@aol.com>
dayton, ohio USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 22:52:13 (EDT)
I can always come up with a good excuse to get yet another rifle.
Here is my latest one. After buying a Choate U.S.S. stock for my M70 .308
match rifle and weighing the thing on the bathroom scale. I find it much
heavier than it needs to be for a 308 (about 17 pounds). So I am thinking
about rebarreling it to .338 something or other. just to put that weight
to good use. I have checked on 338 lapua (cases are very expensive), and
340 weatherby, also expensive. and I have decided to go with the 8 mm Remington
magnum necked up to .338. Here is my question, Has this been done yet by
anyone, Is there a wildcat using this case out there anywhere? If so where
can I find information on it. Thanks to anyone in advance to anyone who
can help me with this project.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 23:24:57 (EDT)
Scott of Dayton
One shot one kill is to denote accuracy, not necessarily the mission
of the sniper. Yes, under most situations once the sniper triggers he must
get out of the AO due to the attitude problem he usually creates in the
gentlemen that are left in the immediate area of his shot. However, there
are times when a target rich environment just begs for more shots. Also
snipers also do odd things, such as support for the offense and the defense.
This requires multiple target engagement. Remember, contrary to many movies,
the sniper is not some sneaky ninja that runs around on his own. He supports
the command's missions and those missions are varied. Thus the sniper's
missions are varied. While the bolt gun has the edge for specific targeting
at long range, the semi has the edge for many missions that are mid range
and are "area" in nature, ie offense or defense.
I know guys I've been saying that the bolt gun is the gun but read
back and I have mentioned the area sniper weapon. Many have the mind set
of the sniper ambush only. The sniper mission is direct action in support
of the commander's goals with an equal mission of human intelligence in
support of the unit's S2. This is why one gun fits all does not work properly
and a multiple gun concept is being used so the sniper can select the SWS
required for his particular given mission.
Isn't it fun to argue both sides!!!!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 23:27:14 (EDT)
Thank you so much Scott, I knew that there should be an interest
in group sizes. This will let me know several things. #1---Is my rifle
up to par or is there still some improvement space here? #2---Is my (gasp)
shooting up to par? #3---If my rifle can print into a, say, 8'' circle
consistently at XXXrange, then I can theoretically make shots at that range
all the time all things being equal. I am really curious. The BSM calls
for a shot at 2000 yards. An MOA rifle will give us approx. 20'' at that
range. Clearly unacceptable. Thank you so much again for your interest.
Just how small can we get these groups to go down? Is head shot accuracy
with a semi-auto at 900 yards really true? If so, I am impressed with both
rifle and shooter. :-) Keep me posted, guys...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 15:50:16 (EDT)
To Scott from Dayton: The nice thing about a semi-auto in the sniping
role is that the shooter does not have to move to reload. It is more a
concealment thing. Police may need that second fast follow up, but for
a guy laying in the middle of a field, working a bolt can spoil his whole
day. I got nailed this way at a recent sniper course. Good hide, good cover,
but the observer still caught the movement of me cycling the action. With
the semi, this would not have happened. of course, had I not been 50 yards
from the observer, it would not have happened either!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 19:40:51 (EDT)
An observation about the use of compensators and how they may affect
accuracy-- it has been my experience that usually a properly made and installed
(talking concentricity here) compensator does not significantly degrade
or improve actual group size, BUT, the more effective it is at it's job,
that is, reducing recoil and muzzle jump, the more it "relocates" your
group. I believe this is caused not so much by the weight of the thing
changing barrel harmonics as by the column of air rushing out ahead of
the bullet at XXXX feet per second, activating the comp, pushing the barrel
down before the bullet has exited. No prob, just resight-in.....not quite.
We know that rifles shoot to a different point of impact depending upon
how they are held or rested....off sandbags will do this, rested against
the side of a tree will do that, offhand will do something else. I see
compensators having a tendency to magnify this a great deal, because the
less solid the support, the more the comp can move the barrel before the
bullet exits. I make a pretty good comp for AR-15s and have seen this time
and time again. Point of impact can change as much as 8" at 100 yds on
a standard AR when a comp has been installed. My feeling is that a compensator
may not be the hot ticket on a tack driving rifle that needs to print tight
groups in the same location in a wide variety of conditions. I do have
an AR with a very heavy Hart BR barrel on it. Into the end of the (1 1/4")
barrel, I have machined a muzzle brake, not a comp, which is to say it
has two large side ports and nothing on top to push the barrel down. This
gun shoots under 1 MOA at least to 300 yards and group location is unaffected
by how it is rested. This might be a result of the sheer weight of the
barrel, but I believe it's because there is no top port trying to push
the barrel down. On a bolt gun in a hard-kicking caliber, I think a brake
is most appropriate as you have less or no need to restrain the muzzle
from moving up in recoil-- you must cycle the bolt anyway. You are looking
for relief at the shoulder, not a .2-second reduction in the time between
shots. I should have done a careful, scientific test of this long ago but
have not.... has anyone else noticed this and perhaps done a little testing?
Ned Christiansen <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 19:47:12 (EDT)
Nathan: First, a head shot at 900 yards with any weapon, bolt or
semi, while doable, is more fluke than a repeatable event. For example:
The aformentioned three shots I made at that range were into a steel human
sillouette, NOT a moving, breathing, pissed off individual of foriegn liniage.
To expect that kind of accuracy in the field would be setting yourself
up for a major let down. Reasonable accuracy in the military theater is
1 moa. This is simply due to the nature of the shots taken. A body hit
is a body hit. Bad guy doesn't need to die per sae, only hog up the other
teams support systems and mental well being. Now, there is not a shooter
worth his salt that wouldn't like better accuracy than 1 moa. There is
also very few custom makers that will survive if that is all they can promise.
But for an arbitrary cut off, 1 moa is the upper limit of what you want
a military SWS to achieve. Half moa is better by far. Quarter moa is seldom
needed, or achievable in the field, but there are rifles easily capable
of it. You just can not hold it that precise when you are freezing, wet,
ticked off, laying in dung, or pondering the meaning of life and the finer
points of the unified field theory!
So, what does it all mean to you in your quest for skill and accuracy?
If your rifle can shoot .5 moa off a bench, you should practice to the
point that you can at least match that in the field. It is not always possible,
but that is your goal. The AT1-M24 I used at SMTC could easily shoot .3
or .4 moa all day from the prone at 100 yards. But I was seldom able to
match that at range in the wind or rain. I could come close, say .5 to
.8 at any time, but execpt for those few rare moments of a steady wind,
outshooting the rifle would have been impossible. If you shoot police oriented
tactical scenarios, you want to be able to keep your shots into the size
of a quarter at 100 yards from various supports. In any condition. That
is a reasonable expectation. If you shoot military courses of fire, you
should be able to make body hits to 1000 yards. Whether you are shooting
a 5 inch group at 800 yards or an 8 inch group becomes somewhat irrelevent.
The hit is the thing. Bad guy might care if you took his leg out or his
arm or his pulminary system, but all you care is that he is out of action
and either dead or too screwed up to carry the fight to your comrades.
My advice, for what it is worth, is to shoot at ranges over 400 yards
as much as possible. Verify if your rifle holds sub moa at those ranges
and if not, figure out why. I say to practice at longer ranges because
it helps develop a sense of precision you do not get at shorter ranges.
If you are limited to a 100 or 200 yards range, shoot at the smalest target
point you can resolve in your scope. It will force you to slow down and
concentrate.
Last thought for the day: If one shot one kill was the ONLY goal,
we'd all be shooting single shot falling block actions. Rick has it totally
right. The MISSION is the thing. It dictates all else.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 20:19:06 (EDT)
As Editor-in-Chief, it gives me great pleasure to announce
Sniper Country's newest feature, the Sniper Country Emporium.
If there's something you want to buy, sell, or trade, mention it on the
Emporium. You'll ALL agree that we have an interest that calls for
special gear which can be hard to find, even in catalogs, but chances are
that if one of us doesn't have something, we know someone who does. I'd
like to thank Marius Ferreira, Sniper Country's Foreign Assignments
Editor, for his diligent and meticulous work on developing the Emporium.
Marius, you've done a splendid job!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 01:12:14 (EDT)
Thanks once again Scott, I really appreciate this. I listened carefully
and took notes. It is this type of detail and specifics that I want. I
wrote this down and will refer to it. I am still interested in record group
sizes at X range just for reference sakes, with caliber, rifle, optics,
load, and maybe even conditions. I will sat to myself, "If X-ring can do
this with this rifle and that range, lets see what I can do.." I hope I
don't embarrass you too badly! Just kidding. I have a lot of learning to
do. Seriously, lets see what the shooting masses can come up with. In light
of the MOA requirements and expectations, can we really count on a 1700
to 2000 yard shot with a $2000 rifle and a standard loading? Scott, could
YOU take that shot?
On another note, has anyone shot the White Feather ammo? How about
the Powell Rivers Lab bullets? The Powell River Lab story told of shots
with a .223 at 1000 yards. They even managed to chronograph a few rounds
at 1400 fps with a 60 some odd grain bullet. I figure that would be on
par with a .22 WMR at point blank range. It certainly has the capability
to kill you, or at the very least ruin your day. Thanks again...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 01:25:21 (EDT)
I happen to think this is a great website. My friends and I frequently
visit, I hope that shooting will attract more of the younger generation.
I find that Carlos is a great person and a wonderful role model. Well that
is all for now I hope to see you guys at Camp Perry this year for Highpower
service rifle championships.
Sarah Covington <cerra13@hotmail.com>
canyon country, California USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 03:24:20
(EDT)
To: Steve / S.C.D.H., Ohio.
There is a cartridge called .338-8mm Rem.Mag(wildcat)made by necking
up the 8mm Rem.Mag to .338 cal. It can, of course, also be
made by necking down the .375H&H and fireforming. This might
be a better route, since good .375 brass is available, but the Remington
brass tend to be somewhat poor. RCBS for one makes dies for the
.338-8mm Rem Mag. I have not seen any data on this cartridge, but it is
used to some extent as a hunting cartridge up here.
If you want to go for the .340 Weatherby, cheap brass can be made
from .375 brass by necking down and fireforming. The .340 is an excellent
long range
cartridge, and possibly the best .338 round if you don't want to
go to the expense of specialty rounds like the .338 Lapua or Lazzeroni.
In my old Weatherby (26" barrel), the .340 will consistently produce
over 2900 fps with a 250 gr bullet and no excess pressures.
Out of a 28" tube it would probably do 3000 fps.
On rebarreling a .308W / M70: The action / magazine will require
some modification, so you might want to look at another action.
Good luck!
Hans
B.C. CANADA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 04:23:16 (EDT)
Hi Guys, I belong to a Military Firearms Club here in Canberra,
Australia, I would like to compete in what we call a "Simulated Sniper"
competition, I am looking at a Savage 110 FP in 25 - 06, only hitch is
that the chambering must have been used by a Military, Para - Military
or Police force somewhere in the world to qualify as a "Genuine" sniper
rifle, could you help me out with some information to prove the authenticity
of this combination?
Dave Groves <sjs@dynamite.com.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 07:49:57 (EDT)
Nathan: My AT1-M24 is the rifle X-Ring shot at Storm Mountain. Andy
Webber provides along with the rifle, targets demonstrating that the rifle
will shoot within .25 to .5 moa. In my rifle's case, the targets showed
that the rifle shot groups of .342" and .347". That is five rounds at 100
meters at 60 degrees farenheit at about sea level.
Now, a lot of guys will come forward and say, "my out-of-the-box
Savage, Winchester, or Remington can do that or better." I say "maybe."
Many of these shooters with "wonder" guns base their measurements on 2-3
shot groups, or fail to measure their groups from the centers of the bullet
holes. And many, in my opinion, are liars. These are the same guys who
caught huge fish, bagged many-antlered game, etc.
So, one might say, "my rifle can shoot as good at the Armament Technology
rifle and is much less that the over $3,000 [well over] that Bain paid
for his rifle. Why waste your money?" Simple, your rifle won't last as
long as the AT, it won't retain accuracy as long as the AT, and it won't
take the abuse that the AT will. Recall that the Marines took out-of-the-box
rifles to Viet Nam in the 60s for use as sniping rifles. They found that
guns could not withstand the climate or the use.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:07:55 (EDT)
FOULING SHOTS:
Regarding the technique of firing a shot to clean the barell
before actually engaging a target in a tactical situation, I
must say that I believe it to be a very dangerous idea.
In a tactical situation, the sniper relies on surprise more
more than anything. You also must consider yourself to be
under observation AT ALL TIMES.
Fouling in a barrel is reduced by putting electrical tape or a
plug over the end of the barrel as a pre-combat check, and
by routine maintainence.
Also, why waste that round? If you insist on firing a fouling
shot then why not aim it at your target anyways? You might
just truly foul someones day.
SWS MAINTAINENCE IN THE FIELD:
Comments were made to the effect that a sniper should relentlessly
clean his weapon in the field. This has not been the case in
my experience. Every effort should be taken to ensure its going
to stay clean in the field (i.e. tape the end of the barrel, a removable
rag under a freefloating barrel which can be pulled out to remove
debris before establishing your FFP etc).
Further, the weapons generally are very reliable and can function
well with minimal care.
Also, the type of care a sniper weapon should be given when it
is given a detailed cleaning is a consideration. One should use
a
one piece rod and different types of solvents and oils. This
is hardly acceptable in a tactical/field environment.
However, a sniper teams security concerns make stopping for
frequent detailed weapons maintainance an unwanted event. The
team does not have 30 infantrymen to post OPs, secy patrols and
establish
a perimeter while they pull maintainence.
I am not saying its never done. But it is a task to avoid
if possible.
Keep it simple in the field. You are there to kill bad guys.
Don't confuse rifle range or competition tasks with the real
thing.
Then again, what the hell, its just my opinion.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:40:50 (EDT)
FIELD EXPEDIENT SUN SHADES:
Saw an article concerned about a Tasco scope with no space for
a screw in sun shade, suggesting using an anti reflective
coating. Good ideas for a real issue.
For us poor folk though, a set of womans nylons pulled over
the end of the scope helps alot, is more affordable, and alot
more fun to obtain.
This is an excellent web site and forum. I appreciate the
opportunity to participate and have already picked up some
good ideas.
Thanks to everyone.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:59:28 (EDT)
I want to become a sniper...So if you have any information please
send it to me....
Brad Foss <Sniper693@hotmail.com>
Cornersville, Tn USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 14:49:36 (EDT)
To Hans,
Thanks for the info on the .338. My original intent was to buy the
brass I needed and turn the rims down to the size of the .308 and avoid
the bolt face problems and have a switch barrel system. I know several
1000 yard target shooters who have done this with no ill effects. I didnt
know that rem. 8mm brass was of poor quality. May I ask, poor in what way?
IF is is just a variance in weight, I'll sort them anyway. IF it is a non
uniform thickness problem, that's something else entirely.
To Jeff,
The idea of a fouling shot in a sniping situation,was only in responce
to a stated problem with semi-autos with regards to debris collecting in
the gas system. Not to be used to clear the barrel. An expert in this field
stated that the semi auto would probably never replace the bolt action
in the field because of this gas system problem in an earlier post. Also
in the articles and commentary section of this web site there is an article
about first round variance of point of impact from the first round out
of the magazine in semi auto. The idea of a fouling shot is only a stop-gap
measure to reduce these problems. I dont like to think of it as a fouling
shot, I think of it more as a double tap. And I think that the person who
chooses the semi auto as his primary SWS would be well advised to do likewise.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 17:41:00 (EDT)
Nice web page.
B4DEATH <keene@sequent.com>
USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 21:06:52 (EDT)
Nathan: In all honesty, the only way I'd bother with a shot at 2000
yards is with a radio and an airstrike! I know people have made these shots
but I view them as pretty unrealistic. More luck than anything. In my home
state we have something called "the Original 1000 yard club". These guys
have the best equipment available and in the last year or two did some
experimentation at shooting at a full mile. While their groups were phanominal,
they were still not so small as to guarantee a one shot hit. I guess I'd
not be too interested in taking such a long shot with anything less than
a .50 cal. I am a fair shot, but not THAT good!
On the Powell River Labs stuff: These folks are making miracles!
Their developments are VERY interesting. Sadly, I can not afford their
products or I'd have reviewed them for you by now!
Mr. Bains AT1-M24: Folks, there are no over the shelf rifles capable
of this kind of accuracy. Not consistantly. This is what you pay for when
you go with a purpose built rifle made by a top notch armorer. My PSS has
printed groups in the .3s occaisionally, but not consistantly. Bain's AT1-M24
will do it all day as long as you do your part. As in all things, you really
do get what you pay for!
Jeff: Good points all! By maticulous cleaning I was refering more
to general inspection than actual bore chores. I would think that snipers
tend to be gun cranks where as regular infantry just clean when forced
to and have no intense interest in precision shooting or the required maintainence.
But you are totally correct stating that daily cleaning is not possible.
I can honestly say the the above mentioned AT1-M24 went 600 rounds before
I got around to cleaning the bore and it never suffered more than a 1/2"
change in zero. Most of the "cleaning" was simple wipe downs, scope maintenance
and checking the barrel channel. I simply didn't have time to clean the
bore. I'd rather let a bore go dirty than use a field issue segmented rod.
Sunshades: Butler creek now offers a thin version Tenabraex's KillFlash
as the SportFLASH. It costs about $15. Also, it appears that TASCO now
has a built in sunshade.
Fouling shots: My own opinion would be they are never acceptable
or realistic. As was pointed out to me recently by Rick, the problem with
the semi in a military environment is all the crude that can jam between
the barrel and the gas tube, or the barrel and the free float tube. It
would seem that the only answer is to have a completely exposed barrel
with an aluminum or composit stock spaced well away. Not sure how to handle
the gas tube. Expect any barrel shroud to fill with gunk during the stalk.
Finding a fix for this should prove interesting. Till then, it seems unlikely
that the semi will take over as the primary SWS. Were I a cop though, it
would be the only system I'd carry. A semi makes a lot of sense for LE.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 21:53:13 (EDT)
Don't let X-Ring (Scott) fool you. He's a great shot. He has some
problems with spelling and grammar, but shooting? No question, very, very
good.
Don't let the understatement fool you. Scott will out-shoot most
around.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 01:33:17 (EDT)
To Dave Groves: If you hunt around, I'm sure you will find someone,
somewhere, who used the .25-06 in a sniping role. The chambering lends
itself well to such an application, however, the problem for years upon
years has been the lack of a source for premium match-grade bullets. Just
recently, I've been told, Sierra has come out with bullets worth using
in this chambering. (I haven't verified this information.) I can tell you
that, with the right bullet, the .25-06 can do marvelous things. Let me
know what you find out.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 03:00:23 (EDT)
I am building my first rifle, and would like some information on
barrels please. There seems to be some conflicting information on cut vs.
button rifled barrels any thoughts? how about Blackstar, worth the extra
cash or just a gimick? (the barrel is for a .308) Thanks
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 03:53:53 (EDT)
To Mr. Bains and X-ring...
Thanks again. I took the info and wrote it down. Don't worry, I
had already figured that I would have to plunk down my extra-big jar of
pennies for a quality rifle. You guys justr about have me sold on the AT1-M24.
Can you guys tell me more about the rifle or that man who put it together?
Prices? In and outs or ect.? Specific loads and optics? Assuming a .308
bore diameter, the .342-.347 range is just about maxed out for a semi I
would venture to guess. I also use the 5 round method for groups. Could
you run down exactly how you measure your groups again? I want to be sure
I understand. Some use the bore value against the hole diameter of the
target, other measure center to center, others measure from the furthest
points of the hole all the way to the other furthest point, and still others
use an X high vs. X width method. It can get pretty complicated. It helps
sometime if you make an abstact analogy, such as all rounds will hit a
dime at X range...etc.
How about the "shooting masses"? Can you guys top this? What about
the 1000 yard club guys? You mentioned they shot phenominal groups, well,
just how phenominal? I know I must be getting on you guys' nerves, but
understand that I am just a lowly plebe prostrating myself at the feet
of those who possess a depthless fountain of wisdom far beyond my capacity
to understand. There, that ...kissing ought to give me a follow up! When
in doubt, appeal to their egos...
Good hunting...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 04:10:11 (EDT)
To: Scott and Mr Bain, Out of box accuracy.
I would say that there are no american factory rifles capable of
this kind of accuracy. Only american custom or semicustomrifles like ATI-M24
are capable of that. In Europe the story is different. We are used to the
"Anschutz-syndrome" when it comes to target or sniperrifles. That is out
of box accuracy and shootability.
Price has ofcource something to do with things but there are "cheap"
eurorifles out there.
The Scandinavian DCM's are using a standard targetrifle called Sauer
200 STR (Scandinavian Target Rifle). This rifle costs $1100 (US) + tax
in Norway. Quick-change barrels are $200. The rifle is listed in GD97 as
Sauer 202 TR Targetrifle, $1900/425. Mel's Sniperpage has a picture of
the rifle called SSG-3000. There are 30-40000 STR's in shooters hands now
in Norway (pop. 4 mill !). In any form of shootingevent, except benchrest,
this rifle blows the others away due to its accuracy and shootability.
The gunsmiths hate the rifle. The only work they have left is an
occational beddingjob. All other gunsmithing can be done by the shooter
on the range.
Other more expensive european rifles capable out of box are: Accuracy
Int, Blazer Tactical, Steyr SSG, etc
BTW, my favourite american rifle is the Wichita Silouette. I'd like
to order one with the sidemounted mag. (stenguntype) and Anschutz trigger
for sunshine sniping :-)
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 05:31:08 (EDT)
Mr. Bain, your confidence in my ability just gives me a great big
warm fuzzy. But as I have merrily told anyone and everyone who would listen,
the AT1-M24 you lent me was so good that you could just about sneeze and
still make the shot! Andy Webber deserves the credit in this case! I want
one of his rifles in a BAD way!
Scott <xring@voicnet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:11:24 (EDT)
Rich from WA: At the risk of irritating the many fine barrel makers
out there, were I building a rifle from scratch there is only one barrel
I'd consider first. Hart. Still, there are many fine barrels available.
Shilen, Krieger, and Douglas some immediately to mind.
On BlackStar process: I just got my PSS back and will start the testing
process out in the next month. As far as their barrels go I can not say.
Does anyone else have an actual BlackStar barrel they can comment on?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:16:56 (EDT)
Nathan: first and foremost - our knowledge is not boundless or infinite.
Believe me, we are learning every day. Anything I may know that you do
not is simply due to the fact that I have been exposed to it, intentionally
or otherwise over time. Folks like Rick (see his comments in the roster
above) have far more field knowledge than I possess! Let it be known, all
of us involved in SC are just normal folks. Some are sniper qualified,
some are not, but all have an overwhelming drive to learn and share.
Now, as far as the AT1-M24. All groups mentioned were made with Federal
Gold Medal, 168 grain match. If you want more info on the weapon itself,
please read my review in the "In Review" section. You can follow the link
to Andy's site. I believe his rifle is about $2000 minus optics. The rifle
is a Rem 700 with a Mike Rock barrel, 5-R Obermeyer twist. Andy does not
make the only worthy SWS out there, it just happens to be the one I played
with most recently! You can figure on spending between $1300 to $3500 for
any decent purpose built rig from many builders.
Group size: My method of late for measuring the FIVE shot groups
is to meticulously measure the outside edge of the group, and subtract
the bullet diameter. To make this simple, I measure the two farthest holes
in the group. I have found it very hard to measure the exact center of
a hole, as this involves some interpretation. Measuring from the edge gives
you a visible mark to start from. But any of the methods you mentioned
work.
TorF: I would not go so far as to say that there are no factory rifles
capable of sub half moa. Depending on caliber, there are several that will
regularly dip into this range. My 700 VS in .22-250 is easily a .4 moa
rifle, Mr. Taylors .308 Savage 110FP is, if memory serves, a .5 to .6 rig.
I believe his .22-250 shoots below that. My PSS will go into the .3s but
not consistently. I have not been able to ascertain if it is me or the
rifle! Logic says it is a little of both. I'll settle for an average of
.6 moa for now. Keep in mind also that many of the groups mentioned are
fired with 10x scopes, sometimes less. I have found that I can take a third
off the group by using a 20x scope as I can hold a point with higher consentration.
But to me, mounting a high magnification scope no longer qualifies the
rig as a tactical rifle so I do not mention these groups.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:56:04 (EDT)
FOULING SHOTS
Steve:
You have a very valid point about the variance of a first rounds
impact.
In the military, we call that a "cold barrel" zero and use our logbooks
to record and understand the variance. It can be overcome with a
little bit
of record keeping and attention to detail.
By using this technique, you can overcome the tremendously risky
tactical
disadvantage you would pose to yourself and your sniper buddy by
using a fouling
shot. The military sniper team is at tremendous risk when it shows
itself and should
never use a fouling shot. I am certain that in a real conflict,
the sniper who uses
fouling shots routinely would not be long to this world.
Which is why I am harping on it a little bit. No disrespect or hard
feelings intended.
SCOTT
It was a pleasure to hear your comment about using air strikes or
indirect fire assets for
targets beyond one thousand meters. FO procedures are one of the
most important skills a sniper
can have, yet are often not well developed ones. A good military
sniper always designates TRPs to
cover his insertion, movement, actions at the obj, and extraction
if they are available.
Glad to hear some of the military considerations regarding sniping.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:27:40 (EDT)
QUESTION:
What is an AT-1 M-24? I used an M-24 on active duty but have no idea
what the AT-1 is?
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:37:50 (EDT)
To Scott, re. accuracy.
I'm very aware that factoryrifles shoot very well.
But if you take 50 rifles with consecutive(?, my english...) serialnumbers
XXXX01 - XXXX50 quality varies to much on american factoryrigs.
If you buy an Anschutz, Steyr or Sauer match/sniper you know that
you are going to get a perfect trigger and proven accuracy. You don't have
to be lucky. All 50 rifles in the serialnr.range will perform.
With american rifles you have to buy a custum/semicustom to get this
level of performance.
In Norway the today level of competition are such that you have to
have quickchange barrels etc. It's not unusual to put 15-20000 rounds through
the matchrig in one year.
I just wish that all rifles could have the same quality as Anschutz
.22LR matchrigs.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:49:11 (EDT)
Just getting ready to attend the sniper courses at SMTC this June
and now I'm gathering
my gear. Rifle, ghillie and ammo I have, of course but I need some
help on other necessary
items. Anyone has any suggestions on what to include on the packing
list?
Thanks
varminter <goranz@muskingum.edu>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:59:16 (EDT)
To Torf: I read your message about Out of the box accuracy with
interest.I have a few comments to make about it.The European match/target
rifles that you spoke of are for all practical purposes custom made rifles.You
said that an occasional U.S. factory rifle is accurate but accuracy can't
be guaranteed.I have 2 Rem 700 Pss s and 2 Savage 110FP s,all of them will
shoot certain loads around .5",some loads will get smaller groups.I have
4 shooting friends who have 6 Savage 110 FPs and 2 Rem 700 Pss s between
them and they all get similar performance out of them.
I also own a Steyr SSG69 which I like but it won't shoot as accurately
as any of my U.S. guns.Most groups are around .75" to 1".Also I have a
lot of trouble with those plastic rotary magazines.I can seldom go a full
magazine without a round failing to feed.
About 10 years ago I was lucky enough to fire 50 rounds through
a HK PSG-1,groups were only about .8",this out of a gun that cost about
$6,000 at that time.
Don't get me wrong,Europeans make excellant guns but to equal the
accuracy of U.S. made guns they cost 5 to 10 times as much.
I hope that in reading this that you didn't think that I wrote it
in anger.This is all fun for me,I've been a serious long range shooter
for almost 25 years.
Good shooting !!
Kodiak
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 14:23:12 (EDT)
What is the AT1-M24, you ask? Check out our review
of this fine, “improved” version of the U.S. Army’s SWS.
As for what to take to SMTC, I recommend reading my article
on the school and X-Ring’s piece
as well.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 17:54:33 (EDT)
To Kodiak.
Yes the Steyr SSG is a dated design.
I had the Match-version with heavier barrel and .308win match-chamber.
It shot very well.
I also had the mag.problems. It could be solved by giving the rotary
spring an extra turn and only use fresh mags.
The SSG 69 has a machinegun-chamber to make it work with all types
of 7,62NATO ammo wich is not identical to .308win. It sounds terrible but
try necking down .358win-brass. It will probably fit the chamber better...
If the action, chamber and rear lockinglugs, are soaking wet you can expect
the first round to go up to 3" wide at 100yds...
I have a problem expressing myself in a foreign language...
What I mean is shootability not inherrent accuracy. I use a Rem 40XC
KS and a Rem 700 VS for some formal targetshooting. If I want these rifles
to be competitive I have to do something with them like changing triggers,
springs, fireingpins(speedlock) etc.
BTW as a sniper I prefer an autorifle with a reliable QD scopemount
that shoots sub-moa with regular machinegunammo. Fortunatly most Norwegian
produced H&K G3's in good condition do that giving a sniperrange of
600m. Mission is weeks on end behind enemy lines usually on skis in the
winter or stay behind in an occupied country (my uncle did 3 years playing
cat and mouse with the Gestapo). Regular sniperrifles don't like that much
except M98's with QD mounts. The feelgoodfactor of an auto in these surroundings
more than compensates for the difference in accuracy.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 17:54:53 (EDT)
What to bring to the counter sniepr course? The short list:
Things other than the obvious: Lots of water carriers, be they camel
backs, one QuarT or Two Quart canteens. Remember it is June and heat stroke
will be a constant consideration. A Ruck with frame. You will use it! Plenty
of 550 cord. Meals, Rearly Editable. A small set of shrub cutters. These
are sort of like a pair of plyers, but cut brush. You will want to make
a tripod out of some arrow shafts to stick in your drag bag. YOU WANT A
DRAG BAG! Ghillie material for repairs. Gloves, bug juice, tylenol. You
can chack out any of the manuals for a complete list of gear but you will
end up not needing half of what they suggest. Travel light but carry what
is essential. Figuring out what is essential will take you a few days.
See you there! I'll be there for a refresher as will our inimitable Mr.
Bain.
TorF: You have a point about triggers and other out of the box issues
one might experience with stock US varmint/tactical arms. But for all that,
they, at least in my humble experience, still shoot very well. For instance,
every Remington I own came with a hateful eight pount lawyer driven trigger.
Yet each one still shot just above half m.o.a. I just can not get to exercised
about that. In fact I'd have to say bloody well done to these major labels
for being able to crank out non-tuned, production fodder that shot so well.
Particularly for the money. $300 to $600 US. On another subject: Feel free
to regal us with stories about your uncle. I have a particular interst
of the history in your neck of the woods during WWII.
Scott <Xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 21:15:26 (EDT)
Hello ,
I have a question regarding muzzles specifically what kind of crown
is preferred on them ? I am not sure what to call the one that I have though
it is fairly standard. It has a "step" in it, leaving a small band around
the outside with a recess around the bore. I am asking because mine also
has a very sharp ridge right around the bore ( the result I think of having
a live center jammed in it when it was re chambered) So something needs
to be done but I don't know if I should go with a deep crown to protect
the bore , an 11 degree target crown or perhaps a circular concave like
I have seen some.. achieved by lapping with a large brass ball. this is
a very heavy shilen barrel straight taper at almost receiver diameter (
Reminton 700 ) at the breech tapering to 7/8" at its end , just under 25"
away. ( it was a 28" blank but had the threads cut off for the new chamber
thus the strange length) Any thought on this ? Oh by the way great site
I have learned a lot . thanks
Dan <Greywuuf@alaska.net>
fairbanks, AK USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 23:51:11 (EDT)
X-ring, TorF, Kodiak, ...Thanks for the info. Once again I took
notes and am slowly honing some knowledge I think I can use. The PSG-1
groups were nothing to write home about, and that is the very 1st time
I ever heard of one being shot. TorF, try out a Ruger 10-22 with an aftermarket
barrel and a synthetic or laminated stock. It is a semi-auto, cheap, easy
to find accessories for, and has legendary reliability and the accuracy
is superb. I have one with a laminated stock ($145), Butler Creek fluted
stainless bull barrel, ($160 or so) and the base gun was about $180 or
so. If you can get another receiver and 1 stock screw somewhere you can
basically have 2 rifles. 1 for hunting/plinking and the other for serious
plinking/competetion/whatever. I topped it with a Leupold Vari- X III 2.5-8x
($300 or so) and some cheap Weaver bases I got at Wal-Mart for $15 bucks
or so. This rifle shoots great and is capable of sooooo much more with
some more tinkering! Thats part of the fun. I have my eye on a BlackStar
10-22 barrel but my wife was really pissed off when I went out and bought
a new gun and stripped it of everything but the receiver, so I will have
to be sneaky about it. Women just don't understand. Another question for
everyone....What is the world's most accurate semi-auto that can be used
for tactical purposes? I want to hear some opinions. This debating is great
and is done in the nicest way possible. Instead of arguing of whether we
should even own guns or not we argue over the merits of semi- vs. bolt.
Fouling shots or not. European vs. US rifles. This is great! Good hunting...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 03:38:20 (EDT)
Sorry, but I keep forgetting to add this everytime I write. About
4 or 5 years ago there was an article in Guns and Ammo about a 1-mile rifle.
It was a custom rifle that I think Ross Seyfried tested but I may be wrong.
I remember it weighed about 18 lbs. and had a synthetic stock with an American
Flag coloring design. I think it was a wildcat .30 cal. I can't remember
what it was bases off of or loads or velocities. He carefully measured
1-mile and made some hits on man sized targets at that range. About 1760
yards to be exact. I think the article said that if you doped the range
wrong as little as 25 yards at that distance you would completely go over
or under the target. I also remember the writer saying that if Carlos Hathcock
got a hold of one, he could get on top of a hill and command 4 square miles.
Scary. Anyone remember that? Can you refresh us? Also be on the lookout
for a 20mm sniper system that was in Soldier of Fortune 1 year ago. Sorry
about all my rambling and taking up space.
Nathan Hendrickson <