Sniper Country Duty Roster Archives

Sniper Country Duty Roster

April 1998

Storm Mountain competition to help Sgt. Hathcock is an exceptional idea. Due to logistical difficulties other shooters and I may not be able to attend the upcoming competition. Perhaps local shoots could be held similar to Postal Matches sponsored by American Handgunner Magazine. These remote matches could be supervised by a team picked by Storm Mountain staff who set target and condition standards to match those at SM, as closely as possible. This would allow shooters across the country to compete with each other and help Gunney at the same time. Local gun stores and other sponsors could provide prizes and other incentives. There are thousands of acres in my neck of the woods (S.E. Oklahoma) owned by John Hancock Insurance Co. that might be available for such a shoot. Any retired officers from Logistics out there?
10SNE1 <cmhmorel@oio.net>
Circus City, USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 02:58:16 (EST)

To 10SNE1: Brilliant idea on the postal matches for Carlos. My only concern is that 100 percent of all funds would go to Carlos and Jo Hathcock -- I have a real "problem" with "paying ONLY for expenses" and so on. As long as this could be guaranteed, I would have no problem in offering my personal support. Others may feel differently, but my position is that if costs are incurred, then someone can pay for them out of his or her own pocket, which means that such things would NOT be paid for out of ANY of the funds raised for Carlos. I've made it clear to shooters and to contributors, and I'll say it again -- absolutely ALL of the money we are raising for Carlos Hathcock II is going to him! No "expenses" are being paid for out of the money we are raising -- and if I ever find out otherwise, there'll be Hell to pay. This being said, if postal matches, or any other types of matches, can be organized in such a way that would benefit shooters with experience and the Hathcocks with much-needed funds, I'll do everything I can to make such events a success, and I think I'm speaking for everyone on the Sniper Country Council by making this statement. Please understand if I'm a bit guarded where Carlos is concerned, but I am sure it is obvious that others have already used his name to line their own pockets. This is upsetting to both myself and to Carlos III (Carlos II's son). This whole charity event was conceived as an act of love, not as a commercial gimmick. If I could be sure that everyone involved in "Carlos Charity Shoots" (CCS) would be of the same mind, I'd be content. Anyone with any "detailed" ideas along these lines (about setting up a CCS), please don't hesitate to contact me, Scott Powers, or any other member of the Council.

To Rick: My consideration in choosing a scope had very little to do with rangefinding capabilities. For 1500-yard shots, mil-dot reticles would be quite difficult to use in determining accurate distances. After consulting with other extreme long-range shooters, I have decided that my best affordable method for determining ranges beyond 1,000 yards will be by using a topographical map. My experience with such maps is, well, rather extensive -- so I don't think there will be any serious problems in using them to determine distance to a target. Someday when I'm filthy rich (?), I'll buy one of those NAIT laser rangefinders that are good out to 2,000 yards. I agree with you, however, in that shots under 1,000 yards can easily and accurately be ranged with a mil-dot scope. My preference for using the stadia reticle, if I'd had that option within my budget, is founded in the fact that I like that particular style for making shots. I really like the LightForce scope's stadia reticle -- in fact, about the only thing I don't like about the scope is it's size. Reticle selection is most likely a personal choice based on experience and utility. Thanks for writing, Rick.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 05:19:01 (EST)

To: Waylon 228
Maybe you can't shoot a 300 Win, but I think that I could hit a stop sign with it at 50yds by throwing the rifle. Keep shooting.

Randy Stoddard <atoz@galstar.com>
Ponca City, Okla USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 06:09:41 (EST)

Four years of school almost completed. Administration of Justice degree almost in hand. Starting to test with police agencies. A good job as a cop can't be far! I would like to hear from any SWAT or SERT team members how the best way to get on the team is once I am in the door (Oregon State Police, Portland Police and Boise City Police are looking like my choice three!) What can I do now to better my chance at getting the coveted title of "sniper","counter-sniper" or "tactical sharpshooter"???
Michael D. Roberts <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Vernonia, Oregon USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 12:44:29 (EST)

Elijah: I read your note on the sniper weapons and I think you are very wrong by saying that
bolt action rifle will die quickly as a sniper weapon. I don't know, but I think there is many
other fine riflemen out there who would agree with me.
varminter <goranz@muskingum.edu>
USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 14:52:06 (EST)

Hi, Guys! First post from Grasshopper. I shoot a monthly tactical match
in Sacramento (see "Sacramento Snipers" article) with my SR25 and saw a couple
of questions about the Stoner's performance. The crowd at this match may be
a little slow compared to others here, but I can tell you that the SR25 *can*
play with the bolt guns and kick some butt in the process. I topped mine with the
B&L 10x Tactical scope and use a handload round using Berger 168gn LTB and military
brass that stays supersonic at 1000 yards (though just barely). In one match when I
was particularly hot, I took first and came within one shot of the match record score.
On the 600 yard line, 3 cold shots gave me a 30-2X on a B-27 target. After the match we
did a 500-yard egg-substitute shoot (we used a kiwi fruit -- "Think of it as an egg in
a ghillie suit," quipped the match organizer) and I nailed it on the fourth round. The
rifle can definitely do the job and I am changing a lot of minds among the match shooters
about gas guns. After last month's match, one commented "That gun's got no damn business shooting
as well as it does!"

Keep in mind I'm new to tactical shooting and the Stoner, I've only had about 500 rounds through the
rifle, and the first match was also the first time I'd tried it past 100
yards. I'm still trying to nail down the balistics and wind drift estimations, so I hope
I can improve my consistancy in the future. If anyone else has a SR25, I'd like to exchange
email on experiences, accessories, loads, etc.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 17:35:31 (EST)

Any one with thoughts on a load for .308 in Remington 700 VS? I currently am using IMR4895 or 4064 (around 41 grains) great accuracy but no speed. can anyone recommend a load over 2600fps with the 168 grain matchking. Any help would be appreciated. thanks
Tom Scharf <scharft@pinenet.com>
Hinckley, Mn. USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 22:05:34 (EST)

To Michael Roberts:
Congrats on the Admin. of Justice Degree. I just got my degree in Criminal Justice in December, and where I went to school, the difference between your degree and my degree is about 3 classes or so, depending on the electives you take. So, we have certainly chewed some of the same dirt!
As far as a cop job goes, I wish you the best of luck. I hope it is better than mine. I went through years of hellish schooling and working and thought I was a shoo-in for the local PD. I was wrong. Beware of the "good ol' boy" system if you live in a small town. You might find that people who are FAR less educated and a lot less smart than you don't get hired right off the bat. I passed all the police tests, did great in the interview, and sat back and watched as a kid younger than me, ( I am 21 and a half) with no experience and an associates degree got a job, but I was passed over. I am still trying. It really depends on who you know. Thats how others get hired, at least around here. I want to be a police officer with all my heart. I am in a ride-along program with my local PD and have my degree. Spotless record. I will be patient though. A CLEET certification is probably just as good as a Masters around here, then they don't have to pay for your training.
As far as SWAT related activities go, I would like that too. But 1st, I have resolved to become the very best patrol officer I can before I even think about SWAT or another special unit. These guys are the best. I figure that if I am destined to be a sniper or another SWAT team member, then the job will find me and not vice-versa. If I cannot become a SWAT sniper or other SWAT team member, then I will simply accept that and become something else, and become the best that I can at it. Maybe 5 or 10 years later I can try again when I have more experience, at least thats what I think.
Michael, please promise to become the very best traffic cop in town before you worry about sniping. I have heard that the job will pick you, and not you picking the job. I say this because we are the few (wannabe) cops that do have degrees that also are rookies, and we will be held to a higher standard just because we are "college boys", and some of the old "salty dogs" at the top may have less education than us. I have seen this already. Good luck my friend, and good shooting. Wish me the same. If anyone on Muskogee PD is reading this, please hire me! If you are in Oregon, please hire Michael! The fact that we spent 4 years and thousands of dollars for such a thankless job should be some proof of our dedication to the task at hand.
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhedrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, OK USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 23:39:53 (EST)

I've got a couple questions and comments:

To Russell: Speaking of the NAIT rangefinder, I saw one (supposedly only one outside of military) for $8000. Let me know if you need it that bad.

Nathan & Michael: Welcome to the club. I graduate in May with Criminal Justice degree. It's the paradoxal EXPERIENCE that counts (kind of hard to gain experience when no one hires you because of your lack of experience). I'm currently in the local Sheriff Department Reserve program, and interviewing at the rate of about once a week. Best Wishes on finding employment.

Need to find:
Gibbs M-85 bipod- tore apart Shotgun News looking for one. Any help locating one would be appreciated.
Tactical Scope- ECONOMICALLY priced tactical scope needed to top my Savage 110FP. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks for any help, and continue to support Sniper Country. Great site with great info.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Kansas USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 00:03:55 (EST)

To Tom Scharf.

Try VV N550 powder for 308win.

I use Lapua 170gr LockBase FMJBT, BC.540, on top of 48gr VV N550.

MV in my Rem 40XR is 2750fps.

Accuracy on 100m: .5 MOA.

This is not benchrest accuracy but in real life at long ranges this round outperforms any 168gr/175gr Sierra/2600fps combination.

VV data can be found at www.lapua.com

TorF
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:09:35 (EST)

To Matt:

The NAIT model I'm referring to is much less than $8,000.00, but thanks for thinking of me.

I bought two M-85 bipods at the Indy 1500 gun show a couple of weekends ago, for $60 a piece. They are available from Model 1 ("Imports?"), some outfit in Illinois (up around Chicago, I think). They had an advertisement in Shotgun News or Gun List -- I can't remember which. If you do a Deja News search through the rec.guns and rec.hunting newsgroups, you'll probably find an address and/or phone number for them. Or, if you want, drop me a line to my E-mail address, and I'll get you a phone number. (Maybe someone else reading the Duty Roster has a phone number for Model 1 that they could relay to Matt.)

As for an "economical" tactical scope, I think you first need to tell us your idea of economical. However, you'll probably want to go with the Tasco tactical model (see the Reviews page).

To Sniper Country's Law Enforcement Visitors: Let me say how nice it is to have you here with us, and I hope you'll return often.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:12:12 (EST)

great web site.
cpl golden, michael t. <spiderman@truelink.net>
palmdale, ca USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:25:11 (EST)

To TorF in Oslo: Thanks for the load data. I have some N-550 that I'll be trying with some moly-coated 168-grain Hornady A-Max bullets. We seem to have a discrepancy, however, in that you list the B.C. of the Lapua FMJBT as .540 and I show it as .504 (shaving hairs, I know, but it makes a difference downrange). The B.C. on the Hornady bullet is .520; however, if you've done your own calculations at the velocity you list with the bullet you're using, then of course your figures could be right -- but I'd like to see your numbers if that is the case. We have some information on the Lapua bullets being tested against the Sierra Match Kings -- perhaps you'd be interested in reading it and then offering your comments.

Again, thanks for the load data. What brand (and model) of press and dies do you use to handload your ammunition?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 06:27:24 (EST)

To Russell.

Lapua makes two different 170gr FMJBT bullets. One is a regular FMJ (D46 or 47?), the other is the LockBase VLD. I'm still at work... I've got my data at home. Another interresting load is Lapua 168gr HPBT Scenar/ 45gr VV N150. Harald Stenvaag used this load to become a 300m 60 shots free rifle UIT world champion with a perfect and unbeatable score of 600p. Thats a 60 shot group inside 10cm (4") prone unsupported with peepsights! Imagine fireing the 60th shot with 59 X'es on the electronic monitor... BTW. I'm a sniper, hunter and competitionshooter. I think most people are consentrating too much about benchrest accuracy and not about real life hitting potetial. Most "sniper rifles" are rigs for the shootingrange. The are definently not designed for a 2 week patrol behind enemy lines. I only use rigs with detach scopemounts that can shoot a 5 (cold)shot group inside 10cm at 300m (4"/330yds). The 5 shots are fired in 48 hours from different positions. (bench, trench, prone, sitting with supported back, etc) Scope detach and reattach between shots. Cleaning rifle after 3rd shot. After the rifle is sorted out you need to look at other things that improves hitting potetial at live targets. Most forgotten is time of flight. Most "sniperrifles" in this routine will not be able to keep up with a WW2 M98K sniper or a H&K G3 with S&B 4X22 scope/H&K mount.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 07:52:05 (EST)

I'm just about to make my first ghillie! As a former medic in the Swedish Special Forces (Lappland (Arctic) rangers)) I don't know much about how to make a ghillie. Though as the special forces in Sweden uses the medics as combatants in first hand and medics in second I'm in good use of a good camouflage while working on injured fellow soldiers. So, how do I tie the burlap to the neting. Should I sew it on or just tie it on??? I use BDU:s (woodland camo) as a a foundation so to speak. What's the best colour for the scandinavian forests?? If anybody could help me I'd be more than happy!!

Mattias <mattiasbroden@hotmail.com>
Norrk÷ping, - Sweden - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 07:53:05 (EST)

It is said that the Steyr SSG cannot be rebarrelled but this
is not so. I can remove the old barrel, and install a new
one for a service charge of $300 plus the cost of the
blank of your choice (don't skimp). No need to retire a
perfectly good rifle because of a shot-out or damaged bore.
Fluting, parkerizing, sights extra.
Ned F. Christiansen <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 08:36:38 (EST)

To TorF: Yes, of course you are right, but the other 170-grain Lapua bullet, the one I purposely didn't mention because its B.C. is nothing at all similar to what you listed, known as the FMJ Lock Base (as you point out), has a B.C. of .525 -- and this information comes from the same source, my copy of PC Ballistics, which is available here on Sniper Country. I have many manuals of load data, and I could probably find a hardcopy listing of the Lapua bullets' B.C.s if I were to look. If you have ICQ or AOL Instant Messenger, TorF, let's chat online sometime, about shooting or handloading.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 09:23:54 (EST)

mattias: Three methods I have seen so far for tying burlap to netting...there are more I am sure. Method one: With a two inch wide and 15" long strip of burlap, tie a single knot at the center of the strip with the net running though it. Two: Pull all the short "hairs" from the strip first, than tie a single knot over the net with the long hairs. This looks a lot like grass when done. Method three, and a neat one I have not tried: Do the same as method two, using only the long hairs fron the strip, loop them over the net just as you did before, but instead of tying a not, use a ZIP TIE. This is a small plastic piece of plastic resembling a belt. It is often found at automotive stores and is used to affix wire bundles together. The neat thing about the zip tie method is that you can easily remove and replace the strands of burlap as needed.

Bolt Action versus Semi-auto: This argument holds little water in the modern day of the semi-auto. I still prefer a bolt gun for tactical use, but I can no longer claim the bolt gun superior in all things. Bolt guns will consistently outshoot service grade semi-automatic rifles, but they will no longer outpace gas guns of MODERN design by any great margin. Modern design. That is the key word. We are not talking about M1 Garands or M14s with their large moving internal mass. The AR15 based gas system has little moving mass to upset the rifle during the firing process. I am not surprised to see the SR25 do as well as it does. A good AR15 competition rifle or space gun will easily shoot benchrest quality groups. We are talking sub half moa. There is a very good reason why you see so many ARs on the line at High Power matches and it has nothing to do with "whimps" or new kids who can not handle recoil from "real" guns. These modern gas guns are simply extraordinarily accurate, easy to shoot, and hard to beat in the hands of a pro. So yes, the new semi-auto designs could easily become the standard on the battle field as an SWS. They have several advantages over bolts in that the user does not have to expose himself due to movement after firing, nore is he limited to a small magazine. He also can better defend himself if, God forbid, he is ambushed or tracked down. Try fighting off the raging hord from 15 feet with a bolt gun. It is not recomended. The semi-auto shooters main consern is the flying brass cathcing someones attention and also not letting his discepline falter and allowing himself to start plinking merrily away until he runs dry. Also, maintenance is a slightly more time consuming endeavor, but not prohibitively so. A trained shooter is going to maintain his weapon for near flawless operation no matter what its design. For now the bolt rules amoung the major forces more because they have spent time and money developing those systems. They work wonderfully so why replace them at this juncture. But eventually, as the systems age, I could easily foresee new gas gun designs taking over. Accuracy is no longer the problem, nor is availability. Mind set has more to do with it than anything. Like I said, I prefer a bolt gun for tactical shooting. That means nothing in terms of the suitability of the gas gun.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 10:31:35 (EST)

To Rick,
I know that attacking a sacred cow like the mil-dot
method will draw fire from its defenders, but here goes.
Any rangefinding method that requires the use of
a pocket calculator is a flawed method. I find that a plain
duplex crosshair to be superior in speed of estimation, as
well as slightly more accurate that the mil-dot rangefinding method. The key is getting the right scope with the right thin opening. You may call this a stadia wire method. to criticize the stadia wire method as being
innacurate past 500 yards and depending on an upright standing target is unfair, because the mil-dot method
relies on the same circumstances, or at least half of the
stationary target. Perhaps no one showed you how to use
a duplex the right way for rangefinding purposes. I will
concede that the dots on the lower quadrant are useful for
hasty elevation holds if one is very familiar with his rifle. And i will also agree that neither method is as accurate as a laser rangefinder.
To Torf, I liked the comments about the 98 mauser
my only problem with the 8mm is I cant get my hands on any
match grade bullets in this caliber. The best I can come up
with are Sierra 175 grain spitzer flatbase. Do you know of
a better 8mm bullet, if so where can I get some here in the
states.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H, Ohio USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 19:42:25 (EST)

I love lively conversations!!! I hope if you guys don't mind if I stir the pot a little more!!

Scott, Everything you said about semi autos is correct for match shooting. We have yet to find a semi that holds zero after an extended stalk and stay in the field due to debris in the gas system. This includes the SR and AR. That is why the bolt gun remains our primary SWS. We can't afford to lose accuracy after a movement through terrain that has fouled the weapon. Watch the line at those meets and see how those weapons are babied. And rightfully so, they are there to win and not to sneak around like kids. Properly camoed and flying brass is not a problem, properly camoed and snared brass is a problem. It will be a while before semis are used for other than area sniper weapon systems. As far as self defense, the SWS is bagged and an M4 is carried for self defense. The SWS is bagged for two reasons, one no base of fire comes forth from a six shot bolt gun. Two, SWS means sniper and that means at any range you are a primary target and attract very unwanted attention, trust me on that one!

Steve, The Mil calculations require a calculator only if you use the inch method. Use Height of target times 1000 divided by mils. This gives you range to target in the units used for the height of target, ie height meters range meters, height feet range feet. This works quite well for head to groin 1 meter miling on average size man, 2 meters for doors, tank height, cannon length, whatever. Add to the fact that with round 3/4 MOA mil dots you can break the mils into 10ths and with the premier 1/4 mil footballs you can break mils into 1/8ths. The Mils also allow for holds for wind, 1/4 Mil is slightly less than 1 MOA, Leads for movers out to whatever your gut and ego allows. 300 meters is usually where wind lead combo begins to ruin the ego but 600 meter movers are more than possible with training. Holds for elevation is a matter of ballistics as is a mirror hold with 700 meters on the gun, and neither the true stadia line scope nor a duplex will ever permit those holds. Yes I have worked with all three extensively with military, FBI, Secret Service, and a few other agencies. The Mil Dot is not a sacred cow it just simply works in the field under the conditions that I must work in and without a calculator, they do break at the darndest times!!!

Guess this got longer than I intended. Love these conversations though. Keep the knowledge flowing. Love this site!!!
Rick <RBowcher@AOL.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 22:50:27 (EST)

Quick/easy ghillie suit: on a bolt of burlap, prior to cutting strips (1 inch or so wide, 8-10 long), apply a camo pattern with spray paint of a color or colors appropriate for the local conditions. This pattern should tend to be more or less at 90 degrees from the direction in which you will cut the strips. Some hardware stores around here carry rolls of burlap already camo patterned. Cut the strips. On your BDUs, put a spot of cantact cement every 3 inches or so-- I believe a ghillie can be too dense. You can always add more later. In the middle of most strips, and towards the end on others, put a spot of cement. You won't be able to do this all at once as the cement has to dry to tacky but not too dry before the parts are joined. As you stick them on, they should be oriented randomly-- not all horizontal nor vertical. Throw it in the dryer a few minutes to fray things properly if you feel the need, but it'll fray soon enough. Depending on how you use it and how you glued the strips on, you will lose some
from time to time-- they are easily replaced. An advantage of not having the strips anchored too solidly is that they will pull off before catching on that 6 foot sapling you're crawling under and making it wave "hello, I'm here" to everyone. Also, if you are trying to make time through the briars, they won't slow you down, but, of course, you could say they would leave a trail. Another good thing about this method is that it's quick and easy for when you have to make do with what there is when you get into town....a ghillie suit might not seem like a normal part of a tourist's kit to some customs officials. It wouldn't have to be burlap, could be about anything if it had to be, grass or dirt stained to suit (o'course not every place on the planet has a True Value store on the corner with contact cement either). The head is done by sewing an old camo tee shirt so that it is a snug fit on the noggin so as not to impare hearing or shift and block the vision. This has breathing holes cut in with flaps of tee
shirt material glued on, so you're not having to do all your breathing through the material. It is then given the same treatment of glued-on strips. Keep the strips out of reach of the eyes, of course, so they can't blow into your way at just the wrong moment. I have made a poncho from the como'd burlap, it's fast to throw on, doesn't take much room folded (ghillies are bulky!), and even though it is not "ghilled", it is a lot more effective than BDUs. It has a hood, and the material is couse enough that vision is
decent right through it.
Ned Christiansen <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 00:17:03 (EST)

Rick: Stir it up, man! Not since Dick Culver had more time on his hands and would drop by the Roster, have we had a someone of your experience and background around to get things going. Keep it up!

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 00:41:40 (EST)

100-9x@ 1000yds Greetings Bros,love to dance
David Roy <Navigator88 @hotmail.com>
Whitby, Ont Canada - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 03:03:42 (EST)

I would like comments on the difference in accuracy between repeaters and single shots.
It's a 308 Savage 12BVSS that I am looking at.
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Va USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 07:55:16 (EST)

To Steve, RE: 8mm

I've got the same problem as you.

Sierra 175gr is the best for 8X57IS.

One can only hope that Sierra will make an 8mm 200gr MatchKing HPBT. (they've made a MK for .303 )

I've shot a M98K converted to 8X68S. MV with Sierra 220gr SPBT was 2900fps with HEAVY recoil.

Most M98K's in Norway are converted to 308win or 30-06.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 08:45:09 (EST)

I NEED TO KNOW THE PROPER WAY TO BREAK IN MY NEW SNIPER RIFLE...ANY SUGGESTIONS?
DOUG DUVEN <DMDUV@AOL.COM>
WATERLOO, IA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 09:05:04 (EST)

I have been tasked with locating a sniper selection program for my agency as we are adding two more. Plaster's book has
much info but I think is makes administrative type cops nervous. Any info having to do with selecting a sniper applicant will be greatly appreciated. (remember I'm dealing with police administrators and they just don't understand sometimes! Keep the good stuff coming. Any 3/5 cav guys out there? see ya!
Joe R <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.us>
kelso, wa USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 10:26:29 (EST)

How to break in a sniper rifle? Check out Andy Webber's site:

http://www.armament.com/clean.htm

Not planning on doing anything else over the weekend, are you?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 10:38:50 (EST)

Rick wrote:

"We have yet to find a semi that holds zero after an extended stalk and stay in the field due to debris in the gas system. This includes the SR and AR. That is why the bolt gun remains our primary SWS. We can't afford to lose accuracy after a movement through terrain that has fouled the weapon. Watch the line at those meets and see how those weapons are babied. And rightfully so, they are there to win and not to sneak around like kids."

I have to take exception to that: I do not 'baby' my SR25 at the match! We do not have the mats, gloves, cute little chairs, etc. that you see at the high-power matches. What we shoot is what we pack to the 1000-yard line and back. We don't cancel our matches on account of rain or because we don't like to get muddy, my near-record score was shot in the middle of a downpour. When the targets pop up and I have 40 seconds for 3 shots from a standing start, I don't ease that big, black rifle down, it goes down NOW!

OK, I'll admit, even then the matches are not comparable to a field stalk for putting stress on equipment. (Though I understand at least a couple of SR-25s have made the course at Storm Mountain.) I haven't deliberately dropped my Stoner on a rock just to see what would happen, but I'm willing to believe it might not take that treatment as easily as a well-constructed bolt gun. Do you have more details about what kind of problems the SR-25 experienced and whether or not their source was identified?
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 14:31:46 (EST)

Grasshopper:

Sorry man didn't mean that as an insult to your style of shooting. I had heard so many "paper shooters" talk about the accuracy they can get with their semi autos that I do become defensive. The great M21 debacle and the fight in 85-86 to get the bolt gun SWS off the ground has me sensitive to the subject.

We do try semi autos, we have worked the M21/25, AR, SR, H&Ks SWS, the Galil SWS, and several others, all lost accuracy in a field environment after an airborne insertion, travel through variuos terrain siuations and an extended stalk. Period in the field ran from 36 hours to 5 days. The problem is changes in barrel impulse as the weapon becomes dirty. Normal field cleaning does not solve the problem. This is why we are requiring only 600 meter accuracy with the sniper support system. We are looking at it in terms of defensive fire, and secondary supporting fire in a target enrich environment. I know only too well the limitations on a bolt gun that cannot lay down suppressing fire, nor can you hold terrain with the weapon. Choices are run or DIP.

The SR and AR are both fine weapons and there are other fine weapons out there to be used by shooters. In the tactical world I live in I MUST trust my weapon and until proven diffrently that weapon will be a bolt gun. Remember, you can operate the bolt as fast as you want to while you have to "wait" on the gas to operate the bolt on a semi.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:18:44 (EST)

Count me in.
I'm ready for the big one.
Sexy Eyeball Man <butterpies@hotmail.com>
marion , IN USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:43:01 (EST)

Rick,

Are you implying that you can be on target and ready for a follow up shot before the bolt on a semi-auto cycles? If so, you're a lot faster than I am (which is quite possible). My Stoners (Match and Carbine) definitely keep ahead of me!
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Gig Harbor, WA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:51:36 (EST)

To Tom Scott: I am uniquely qualified to answer your question. I bought a Savage 112BVSS-S in .300 Winchester Magnum solely because I wanted the action. There is no extra machining step to remove the metal in the bottom of the receiver for a magazine, and switch-barrel tests by Savage engineers proved beyond any doubt that, although slim, there is a distinct improvement in accuracy when using the single-shot action versus one with an opening cut out for a magazine. Simply, this is due to the extra rigidity of the action. I spoke with one of my contacts at Savage Arms at some length about this, and it was based on this discussion that I based my decision to have my custom-built .338/378 Weatherby Magnum built on the Savage single-shot action. Now, I'm NOT speaking for, nor about, OTHER brands of rifles, but it stands to reason that any metal that is not removed is likely to make the action stronger, more rigid, and a bit more likely to aid accuracy. Oh, and I just LOVED the article in one magazine recently (Shooter's News or Tactical Shooter), that claimed that the Savage action was incapable of withstanding the pressures from larger magnums, and that it wasn't possible to open up the bolt face -- or words to that effect. Well, the "nay sayers" will have a little surprise in a month or so.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 16:04:02 (EST)

To Torf,
I agree, it is long time past due that Sierra came up with a good match grade boattail bullet in 8mm. I personaly would like to see one about 196 gr. with a b.c. .500
By the way I also have bull barrel 8mm-06 ackley improved 98 I can get 2950 fps with the 175 Sierra and sub M.O.A.

To Rick,
I never said that the mil-dot method didn't work, I just
find it slow and complicated.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Target is 2 yards
tall at a range of 775 yards. Now lets see how the answer
works out with your mil-dot method. 2 yards * 1000 = 2000
ok so far, I didnt need a calculator for that. thru the scope the target appears less than 3 mils high but greater than 2 mils high. so I carefully estimate the size of the little footballs and imagine that they are laying on top of
each other up to the span of the target, and i guess that
the target spans maybe 2.6 OR 2.7 OR perhaps 2.55 mils
now tell me quick, what is 2000 divided by 2.6 without a pocket calculator.
Now lets take a scope that I like. A weaver T-10 with a duplex reticule The thin opening measures 9 1/4 inches exactly at 100 yards. I look at the target and find that
it fits the thin opening perfectly and I say to myself,
height 72 inches range = 720 meters.
Familiarity with all things breeds competence. I will take you at your word that you can esitmate range without a pocket calculator with the mil-dots. Most of us can't though, unless the range just happens to be at a convienant distance
Oh yes, you are quite right about the mil-dots being useful
for wind hold offs also. I forgot to mention that in my earlier post.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H, Ohio USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 19:18:10 (EST)

Jay, Guess I just showed my age, That is an old joke between bolt gunners and semi auto users. It was first pulled on me by an officer I was briefing on bolt versus semi for sniper purposes in early 70s. He wanted to know why we carried a bolt gun when the army had a perfectly good M21 that won all those matches.

Steve, I'm so happy your range happened to fit right in your duplex. Unfortunately that seldom occurs in life. Also a better reading on the hieght would have occured for you had you stood the "target" on top of a football. If it reached the bottom of the third football the height would of been 2.75. If it was below the football then set the bottom of the target on the bottom of a football and estimate how much it is above the second football or below the half way point, which ever is nearest. This will give you a much closer estimate of the Mil height. Just as you have memorized certain key elements of you reticule, we do the same in conversions. It also helps that our Mil Dots are in 3/4 MOA round dots, this permits Miling in increaments of tenths which is also easier. As has been said before, it is what the individual is used to and trained in that is easiest for that individual.

Keep the discussions going and share the knowledge, this is how I keep my old mind from rusting!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 20:44:17 (EST)

HELP!
I have received reports that the Army is no longer using the M25 and that SOCOM has recalled all SR-25s. If you have information on either issue, please e-mail me directly.

Thanks,
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere The Good Ole U.S. of A. - Saturday, April 04, 1998 at 19:43:58 (EST)

This is a truly informative site. As a beginner to the long range shooting scene I have found your site quite helpful and will check back regularly. Keep up the good work guys!
JJ <bait@mailexcite.com>
- Saturday, April 04, 1998 at 21:08:06 (EST)

greetings agin. sorry to be such a negative spot on a great site but thought i would let you know fyi. i just finished watching the video "the ultimate sniper" and found it not only drawn out but also basically non-imformative except for the very short section on mil dot reading. perhaps i am a little premature on my review as i understand it is meant to be accompanied by the book. just thought the video would be better and more time saving than sitting to read. still waiting for the arrival of my 308 savage 110 and look forward to the expected results i hope to obtain with it.
gil david <gildavid@msn.com>
albany, ga USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 07:20:13 (EDT)

Has anyone heard the latest stupid thing happening? It seems that because of the recent violence in Arkansas involving the shooting of the children, some school systems are banning the wearing of camouflage clothing. Am I the only one that can see the stupidity with this? It seems that the current trend of school wear is appropriate. You can go to any school in this Country and see that a very large number of the students look like gang members. It is alright to look like a gang member, but not a hunter. We all know that hunters kill far more people every year than gang members do. (Sarcasm) I for one will have a hard time clothing my son when he goes to school, because his favorite clothes are his camouflage ones. This has not happened in my local school district, but if it does, I will be at that school board raising hell. I hope that everyone else will also. Just another example of blame shifting. I strongly agree that what happened in Arkansas was terrible, and I feel badly for all people
involved, but shifting the blame to the clothes that they were wearing is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard of. I will get of my soapbox now. Any other comments?
Randy Stoddard <atoz@galstar.com>
Ponca City, Okla USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 15:15:29 (EDT)

One of the few things the ACLU is good for is defending the First Amendment. The ACLU has litigtated successfully to overturn unconstitutional dress codes. They probably will do so with these "camouflage" bans.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 22:36:08 (EDT)

gil: For what it's worth, I felt the same way about MAJ Plaster's video. Low on substance, long-running, and somewhat lacking in production quality. Russ Taylor will tell you (probably) that the video is meant to be viewed with the book and the video "fills in the gaps" of the book.

Beats me. I thought it dragged!

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 03:12:03 (EDT)

To the ghillie guys: Two quick things to think about--1. Remember that your ghillie suit is only a base for your camo. Try using a good blend of colors (greens and browns) that will blend in various types of vegetation. The use of 550 cord strips tied into the netting for the addition of natural vegetation was a good point brought up in earlier comments. 2. Try not to get tunnelvision on the thought of only using burlap as garnish on a ghillie suit. Jagged cut strips of tafeta work extremely well. For anyone not knowing , tafeta is a light weight nylon material. Coated tafeta is used to make ponchos. You can get it in an array of colors to include camo patterns. When burlap gets wet in the field it is heavy for one, it turns dark and it does not move at all when the wind is blowing.Tafeta doesn't get heavy, it doesn't turn dark and it blows freely in a leaf like fashion.Your ghillie will also roll up alot smaller when putting it in your ruck sack. I am not completely putting down burlap, it is good to mix in with the tafeta to give it a clumpy, grassy undergrowth look to it.
Eric <sem308@aol.com>
TX USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 04:52:16 (EDT)

Immmm Back!!! Been out of town...man, can you all come up with lively topics in three short days!

Semi-autos: I agree that traditionally, the semi was not the way to go for long term accuracy. My previous comments do have some back ground in High Power, true, but with a properly built AR system, sight changes seem rare, or I have not abused my to the same level as Rick. With a free float tube, true heavy barrel, and proper powder, the AR has been pretty totally reliable in my experience. As I said earier, drop an M21 from 5 feet and you are out of business, drop an AR from higher and it generally will not notice. I am talking a purpose BUILT rifle here, not a rack grade system, although they hold up fairly well. Long term fouling is an issue in any system, but as we are talking about sniper systems, it is realistic to think a dedicated sniper will not clean and maintain his system religiously? If the AR gas tube ever get so bad it needs replacing, it only takes about 5 minutes to do this job. But again, with modern powder, the tube doesn't really foul.

Rick said:
"We do try semi autos, we have worked the M21/25, AR, SR, H&Ks SWS, the Galil SWS, and several others, all lost accuracy in a field environment after an airborne insertion, travel through variuos
terrain siuations and an extended stalk. Period in the field ran from 36 hours to 5 days. The problem is changes in barrel impulse as the weapon becomes dirty. Normal field cleaning does not solve the problem. "

My question is, were these rack grade service rifles or weapons built for the sniper role? Also, if they were sniper systems, how often were they cleaned by the users? As an infantry troop, I let cleaning chores go for longer periods, but I can not think of any sniper who would dare do this unless totally stressed in a target rich and dynamic environment.

Anyway, I would agree that the day of the semi has not arrived yet. But it may not be that far off. Like you Rick, I STILL am a bolt guy. I just like to consider the alternatives.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 15:38:40 (EDT)

Scott,

All weapons were dedicated to the sniper role and built specifically for that role. While they are getting better we still have problems. Cleaning a weapon after a stalk into view of your target is not an option, you must shoot what you have in hand. We have protected the weapons every way possible and still had problems. The big thing right now is that one time there may not be a shift or problem and the next time or two there will be a problem. I just can't risk that time or two. Cleaning the weapons is a constant ongoing process and yes we can be fanatical about it. Again it goes with the territory.

I will admit that if they show me a semi that will stay up then I'll be glad to shift over. As I said, defending yourself with a six shoot bolt gun .308 or four shot Mag, is just a little tiring and wears on the morale.

Come on guys if you know of a good semi let me know, the SO arena is still in test phase for a new semi weapon.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 15:54:19 (EDT)

just picked up stephen hunters "new" book, "second saladin" and have read the first 9 chapters. seems to be another good read for the gun people. has anyone read it yet. if not i'll give you a review in a couple of days. also recommend some good videos on concellment and tactics. thanks in advance
gil david <gildavid@msn.com>
albany, ga USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 01:26:45 (EDT)

To Gil David: I enjoyed the Plaster video, in fact all three of them that I own. Let me say, however, that the very first thing I do is figure out the intended audience -- and I do this with books as well as videotapes. You must realize, and I'm sure you do, that many of us on this Roster have varying degrees of, shall I say, "expertise" in areas of marksmanship, tactics, and fieldcraft -- Plaster's three tenets of sniping. You probably have no military experience, Gil, and if that is the case, then you'll easily think the tape "drags." Having seen more than my fair share of military videos and other training-oriented tapes, I can tell you that Plaster's is one of the better ones out there. It actually does "teach." It's intended for those who have an interest in sniping but don't have much of a background in it. Anyone with a solid foundation on the subject will possibly be bored. I can tell you that about 40 other instructors, while I was teaching MS 202 Combined Arms Operations at West Point, were riveted by the material on the tape, and requested to see it over and over again -- and some lively "review" discussions ensued some of the viewing sessions. So it's all in the intention of the presenter and the education level of the target audience. Yes, as Mr. Bain said I would, I must point out to you that the videotape is best viewed in conjunction with having the book on hand as well. And the two, when combined, make for a pretty stout resource on sniping. Training videos hit people differently. While I can follow Plaster's TUS tape -- often stopping and replaying various portions to catch a particular point he's making -- others, watching ANY videotape, can be bored unless there's a lot of shooting, explosions, and "exciting stuff." Training tapes just aren't like that, though, and I can tell you that most are worse than you perceived Plaster's tape. I reviewed a tape, a couple of years ago, that just... well... oh, Hell, to be bloody honest about it, the thing really sucked! And, as tactfully as I ever get (which isn't by much, as the SC staff will tell you), I told the producer of the tape that it might be better for him to reevaluate his target audience and consider revamping the tape a bit.

Gil, if you'd take some time to write to me, I'd be glad to give you some ideas about other references you may want to consider. I'd also direct your attention to our Bibliography page where you'll find (and this is NO joke) the best source of sniper-related references anywhere on the Internet. And I assure you, Gil, Mr. Bain works very hard to keep it that way, as do other members of our staff, such as Garry Blosser.

Thanks for your comments, Gil, it's good to hear from you.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 02:52:41 (EDT)

Mr Bain: Thanks for your info, I "obtained" the FBI manual
you told me about.

Things I learned @ recent advanced sniper school

1. Ghille suits are impossible to wear in blackberrys.
2. Mil dot scopes hard to read in dark.

Keep up the good work.
Joe R <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, WA USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 10:02:48 (EDT)

Ghillies !

To all Fuzzy Triggerpullers.

Don't forget that you are in the middle of a Wad of Tinder when wearing the G-suit. And war tends to be a unpleasant season with fire etc. .

I have fireproofed (retarded) all my Ghillies with a solution available here from manufacturers of Curtains Seats for Cinemas etc. With the fire codes the way they are in the US you should get this type of stuff pretty easy.
Spraying it on with a flower/garden type pump spray bottle works fine. I add a little olive cloth dye to the solution so it is easier to see which part is treated. It also gives a new Ghillie a little used look.

Our Sniper code is ATN 300 10 86 is this NATO standard ?
I now the Marine Corps is diffrent. Any Nato Snipers out there ?

Horrido !

Torsten PS I really liked the Egg in a Ghillie
(Kiwi)
Torsten Erning Ofw.d.R. <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 13:18:42 (EDT)

Two items of interest.

Today, I bought an ArmaLite Action Master in .223 Remington -- this is the kind of flat top model I've wanted for so long.

Also, I'm going to be in Wiesbaden, Germany, during 13-27 Jun 98, and it'd be nice to have a beer with some of you "EuroSnipers" if we can manage to find each other.

Oh, heck. Now I need a scope for ANOTHER rifle. Woe is me. Hey, prairie dogs, anyone?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 15:51:52 (EDT)

Just read a proof sheet from the May, 1998 issue of Tactical Shooter, specifically, page 62. TS has gotten the preeminent law of war expert in the U.S., COL W. Hays Parks, to write on Military MatchKing use.

Parks lays out in one page the real story behind the Hague Convention, "dum dum" bullets, and sniper-use of open tip bullets. The arm-chair law of war experts can sit down and shut up; Parks has spoken!

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, , Anywhere, USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 18:31:10 (EDT)

To Jay,
I wouldn't worry too much about what Rick says about
how slow the semi-auto is compared too his bolt action.
He is just pulling your leg, (sort of).
The only way to operate a bolt action faster than a semi-
auto is using the Hawkins position, and the
(bad finger) technique of bolt manipulation.
It is only a rare occasion field conditions permit
the use of the Hawkins postion, and everyone knows that
the bad finger technique is not worth a crap for hitting
kiwi fruit at 500 yards. {Well no more than a half dozen or
so anyway.}
Rick,
I know this goes against your motto of "One Shot One Kill"
but have you ever considered wasting the first round of the
magazine to clear the gas system of debris. and then using the
second round for the serious stuff. For shots past 500 yards,
the time of flight should allow for plenty of time for the
second round to be fired before the first round gets there.
(slow cycle time and all). For shots under 500 yards, just resist
the head shots. Have you ever tried those heavy duty camo
condoms yet. :)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 19:05:51 (EDT)

Plaster Video: Only real problem is content. It tends to lack in detail. For the most part it is interesting and easy to follow, but I felt he glossed over a lot of info. A longer tape could have been in order. The book is a must read. Just view the video as eye candy to accompany the hard copy.

Steve: The idea of a fouling shot, or anti fouling in this case, is not to smart a proposition as you may only have ONE shot in a lot of situations. For the cop, this is always the rule. A soldier may have more leeway, but counting on this is fool hardy, whether with a bolt gun or a semi-auto. Granted, a snuffy can just nail the enemy with a body hit and go home, but you still want that first shot reliability.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 20:40:16 (EDT)

Coming Soon: A review on the BlackStar process! For all of you who have been waiting, thank you for your patience!
Scott <Xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 20:42:07 (EDT)

a year or so ago I followed a link from you page to a site which listed active duty sniper's. Some of those guy's were friends I have served with and I have not been able to find it again. Could you tell me where that was?
Thanks for the help.
Active duty Sniper.
Active Duty <or0652@exmail.usma.army.mil>
NY USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 23:00:15 (EDT)

To "Active Duty:" I suspect you'll find the link you're looking for on either our links page or our training page. I'm guessing it might have been a SEALs site, but without more information from you I can't offer much more help than that. Good luck to you.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 01:09:26 (EDT)

Thanks again for a good site!
To Rick: Thank you for the comment a while back in response
to my ramblings about scopes. I totally agree with you that
the Leupold MK IV is an excellent choice and perhaps the best
and most practical one the market today. However, up here we
pay Cdn $ 1 700 for it and that is sometimes hard to justify
for the individual shooter. The choices mentioned are a lot
less expensive and they seem to stand up very well.
Regarding Mil-Dot reticles: I like them and find them rather
easy to use, once you get used to one. Nightforce, Springfield
Armory, and some other makes have a quicker system, but they
might not be as versatile in use.
Repeatability when adjusting for range - if you don't want
to use the Mil-Dot reticle for holdover - I find very important,
and this is where a rugged, purposely constructed scope comes
into the picture. A regular hunting/target scope just can't
take it, regardless of brand. The exception might be the
T-series Weaver that have excellent adjustments.
From the Duty Roster/July 1996, I enjoyed JRF's comments
about scopes, and the ones from US Optics in particular!
Anybody have any (updated) comments about these scopes?

Regards,
Hans, BC,Canada

Hans
BC Canada - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 01:53:54 (EDT)

Russell Taylor !

Keep me informed on your Wiesbaden travel agenda.
Will you be in the North as well ?
If you are active or reserve Mil. then I may be able to get you on a shoot with us. Scoped G-3 , G-36, and Mauser 86SR.

Good Hunting

Torsten
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 08:42:12 (EDT)

Bolt/semi comment: I'm having a very hard time getting my guys to recycle their bolts after a shot. Remember the Good Guys store!! One shot, one kill is fine, but RELOADING and looking for more is better. Is it just my guys??? The semi auto guys I've shot with seem to do fine. This is law enforcement types though...Don't know how extended field duty would affect the semi auto in a military environment.

Was called out on 040598 2230 hrs for barricaded w/m who had slashed his daughter's face and arm with a broken dinner plate. Suspect fled in vehicle and a pursuit initiated. Roadblock was put in place and the suspect drove his car (85 G.P.) directly @ Deputy who was outside his vehicle on shoulder. Deputy drew and fired 2 rounds from Smith M59. First round hit bumper (cops always shoot 1st round low for some reason) second hit hood/windshield without penetration. Suspect struck Deputy, breaking his leg, and returned home.
Suspect residence is built over a garage. Has a sliding glass door and one window to North, no windows/doors to East, 2 windows to South, 2 windows and door to West. Master bedroom in NE corner w/slider and balcony. secured a position across the street to the North, 47 yards out. Suspect observed to change clothing 3 times in 5 hours. 2 additional sniper teams arrived @ 0200 hrs and were assigned SE and W sides. All within 100 yds. Power and phone terminated. 4 man swat team on East wall, 4 man team on West wall. Negotiations continued until 0640 hrs. Suspect
surrendered. This is my third callout to this residence since 1983. Suspect has two prior felony assault convictions on family members. Beat wife in face with house brick, fired 3 rounds of 12 ga inside residence during a family beef. Facing 2 counts of assault 1 (attempted murder)... We have a "3 strike" rule in this state. 3 serious felonies and you get life. We'll see.
As we were securing, suspects wife approached me and complained that we took too long, didn't want the team to go in the house to confirm it was cleared, and was angry that we turned the power off. I advised that her tax dollars were at work! Stay Safe/JR
Joe R <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 11:02:29 (EDT)

Go Joe! Our hopes are that the Deputy will heal quickly and the suspect stays behind bars for a long while.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 11:30:11 (EDT)

Ultimate gun: 16,5" smoothbore.

Bullet: 500 ibs DSFS.

Powder: 1000 ibs M8M

MV: 7200fps (!!)

Accelleration: 13000g

Have fun: http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/GeraldBullInfo.html

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 16:34:39 (EDT)

I've got a few questions:

Does a recoil compensator inherently affect accuracy? My father enjoys going to the range and shooting my Savage 110, but the recoil is too much for him. This got me thinking about comps and their affect on performance. Does anyone have any experience with screw-on type compensators?

Anyone have any advice on bipods for the Choate/Plaster stock?

Need advice on a new tactical scope (Under $500). What's a good choice?

Russel: Thanks for all your advice and comments. Much appreciated...

Thanks for any input.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Kansas USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 21:54:57 (EDT)

Does anyone know where I can locate a 2X teleconverter
that will fit the Leupold VariX II 6-18x40? I've heard about them, I've
read about them, but I cannot find one! Thanks in advance
for the help.
Scott Williams <swilliam@oak.kcsd.k12.pa.us>
Lock Haven, PA USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 23:35:31 (EDT)

Regarding all the mil-dot reticle discussion: Chris Thomas (Premier Reticle)
installed what he calls a modified mil-dot reticle in my 'scope
which has mil-dots on the 9, 12, and 3 o'clock quadrants of the reticle,
which offers more than enough ranging tools, and on the 6 o'clock quadrant
he has installed holdover dots based on my rounds' ballistics and
other salient information based on my general shooting environment
at 100 yard increments out to 1,000 yards with the reticle intersection
being zeroed at 300 yards. These yardage dots work real well, as I
have managed first round hits from known distances of 500 to 800 yards,
and the shooting wasn't done on any range, either! This was across the hollow, hit that rock
kind of shooting.
Scott Williams <swilliam@oak.kcsd.k12.pa.us>
Lock Haven, PA USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 00:11:15 (EDT)

This past weekend I once again had the pleasure of firing my weapons at Storm Mountain Training Center. Thanks to Rod and his family for an awesome range.
My question is in regards to the .338 Win Mag used in sniping. Does anyone have any special loads worked up that they would be willing to share? I have found that this rifle although heavy in the recoil department is extremely accurate. My shots this weekend at 650 yards were nothing for this rifle. By the way it is a Browning A-Bolt that has been fiberglass bedded...Thats it!! I shot a 14" group at 650. Is this a good group at that range "5 shots".
Lou Montgomery <loumont@hereintown.net>
McCoole, MD USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 02:16:38 (EDT)

To Torsten: I'll certainly keep you apprised of my itinerary as best I know it. I will be in Germany for two weeks of training (I'm a soldier in the Army Reserve). I'll look forward to any "trigger time" you can arrange. Sniper Country is a global operation, and it certainly benefits the visitors of our website when we can include shooting- and sniper-related information as often as possible. I would someday like to tour some of the fine arms manufacturers, and perhaps some of the optics makers, in Europe. Since the unit I'm assigned to sends contingents of soldiers to Germany on a regular basis, this may be possible.

I've also been a fan of Gerald Bull's work for many years. I followed his career while he was alive. Quite a guy. I miss him. Truly a man of vision. (I wonder if there's any correlation between my admiration of Gerald Bull and my fascination with powerful rifles and handguns. Hmmm.)

To Joe R. : Sorry about the deputy's busted leg. I can only hope that the offender gets what is coming to him. I'm rather sensitive to issues of domestic abuse, and it would make my day to learn that "Mr. Brick-in-the-Face" receives some, well, uh... attitude adjustment. On the matter of recycling bolts -- I am reminded of the comments by several professional hunters who say that the NUMBER ONE complaint they have about most of their clients is that the latter tend to want to admire their shots. Understandably, when dangerous game is involved, standing there admiring your shot is not well advised. I don't have this problem, and tend to recycle as soon as the previous shot is away. You might consider range practices where the officers are penalized when the targets don't go down. You'd need to be sporadic with this type of training, so they got the idea that they're supposed to keep shooting as long as the target is up. I blame Hollywood for the idiocy of today's youth, because too many times it only takes one shot to make the bad guy "go away." Real life is not like that, as in my favorite (reference) case of the doped up robber who took 18 rounds of 125-grain .357 magnum slugs before falling over. His blood was "orangeish-green" because of all the chemicals he'd been dumping into his body -- LSD, PCP, and God only knows what other initials, too. Of course, you could always shoot at your officers until they learned to recycle their bolts -- but no doubt your department has a policy against this. They'll learn. Or they'll die. It's pretty simple.

To Matt: Scope, Tasco Sniper (see our review). Compensators can ruin accuracy though this is not often the case (they reduce felt recoil and/or muzzle flip. Anytime you hang things off the end of your barrel, you're tempting the gods. What I will say, though, is that I have used muzzle brakes with great success and am quite pleased with the reduction in recoil (read, "pain"). For your Choate stock, I'm happy with my M-85 bipods, but you might want to look at the Versa-Pod (see our review). When the weather in my area permits, I'll get a review done of the Choate/Plaster stock.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 03:42:58 (EDT)

A very good site on armour and related itens like.

Go to Tankers forum/messtent.

The topics about about tankguns tankammo and ballistics are exellent.

The website has a good design for discussion, deviding them into topics.

Heavy Metal: http://www.airfax.com/tanks/
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 03:59:38 (EDT)

I think this page is great. Please set up a page with the best snipers in history, with confirmed kills, country of origin and what conflict(s) they served in.
Henrik Bylund <henrik.bylund@sundsvall.mail.telia.com>
Sundsvall, Sweden - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 09:37:09 (EDT)

Here is another call for a page with the greatest snipers in history, complete with confirmed and uncomfirmed kills and a short bio. What would be REALLY neat is if you could find some current or ex-snipers who are willing (and able) to tell us some war stories, advice, and techniques. Same thing for law enforcement if possible. I know this is asking for a lot, but what price knowledge?:-) Has anyone out there used White Feather ammo? Opinions? Here is something more realistic...Could the gods of Sniper Country use the depthless fountain of their immenent wisdom to give us plebes and wannabes a set of record group sizes at various ranges? Firearm/load included please. This would enable us mere mortals to see a standard by which we could judge ourselves by. Seriously and honestly we need this info. Pretty please with some sugar ontop?:-) Good hunting....
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 13:00:07 (EDT)

Simply outstanding.
k.m. nelson <ahnelson@netcom.com>
fremont, ca USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 14:48:07 (EDT)

Anyone got any ideas on how to permanently subdue the shine of my stainless CAR-15 barrel? Good shooter for a short barrel, and nice size to hump around when you've got all the other normal mission kit. How about using a vortex flash suppressor on a 7.62 bolt gun? Works well in .223, especially at first/last light, so I would like to have its benefits for my primary weapon.
MCpl Ben Klick <bklick@sprint.ca>
Edmonton, Alberta Canada - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 20:19:51 (EDT)

Guys, don't get me wrong here. When I talk about the semi autos, I'm talking about my situation. In LEA the semi works very well, especially when you have to do follow on shots and/or have multiple targets that out number the availble shooters. Match your equipment with your situation and mission. One size does not fit all and if in your environment the AR or SR works then use it.

Joe R. I use a cleaning rod to the hand of any student that doesn't cycle immediately after shooting. Of course the army does have slightly diffrent training parameters than LEA. Only kidding, practice and competition works the best. Especially with the A type personnality necessary in the LEA community. Use multiple targets and very short time periods. If you have access to a KD range with pits, then place a head sized target on 2x2 that is long enough to expose the target above the butts. raise the target randomly over a 5 to 7 meter front and give the shooter a 3 sec exposure. After three seconds drop the target, move to another location and raise the target after 5 to 7 seconds. This will get their attention when a penaly in incurred for each unfired round and or miss. Use your imagination for penaly. Loser cleans everybody else's kit is a start.

Steve, a fouling shot is not practical in our line of work. Also the build up of junk is not in the barrel and a shot could actually make the problem worst.

Scott, A 2x converter may not be a good idea. There are problems incurred with the teleconverters, such as increased mirage distortion, focusing problems, and your 40 will become a 20 with a quartering of light transmittance, thus a very dark field of view. I really reccommend against the use of the of the 2x teleconverter.

Keep the discussions going guys, I love this site!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 22:34:41 (EDT)

I was in a "product training" meeting today at ArmaLite. Very interesting. Just wanted to post my comments on the ELCAN and ACOG sights. Both are well made for their intended purpose and each had an interesting reticle. I've always been against the U.S. Army's technique of compensating for pathetic marksmanship training by introducing a piece of equipment, but -- I can see how the ACOG, with the TA01 reticle, could help Private Snuffy get the job done. As I understand the ranging method of the ELCAN, you place the upperhalf of a man-sized target between the two thin lines that extend to the right (from the top of what looks like "the Washington Monument," as the presenter explained it), and then slip the range adjustment on the sight appropriately. It's alright, nothing against it, but I preferred the TA01 reticle in the ACOG for ranging. With it, you base "shoulder width" as the foundation of your range estimations, and you can QUICKLY determine the distance to a man-sized target from 100 to 800 yards.

It was mentioned that a few users of the ACOG report that the reticle tends to look like it is "flapping its wings" -- that is, that the outer left- and right-most extents of the horizontal line can appear to move up and down (with the center remaining "motionless") if the shooter moves his head while peering through the sight. This is not a "design flaw," but was the result of how the issue of parallax was addressed. The point of impact and point of aim are unaffected by this (possibly) perceived "flexing," and the shooter, once properly trained to ignore this flexing (if he or she even notices it), can VERY quickly engage a target with first-round hits. According to the ArmaLite catalog, the TA01 reticle is red at night.

Anyone having any experience with the ELCAN, what do you think of it?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 03:15:19 (EDT)

In the beginning of the 80'ies I competed on an international level, UIT moving target.

I competed sometimes against the US Shoting Team from Fort Benning.

One of the US teammembers I met was a former sniper.

He had served in Vietnam.

He told me that he sometimes used a rifle in .25-06 and that he had kills with it.

Any comments?
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 09:14:42 (EDT)

Norma has a new powder called MRP-2.

It's slower than the regular MRP.

It is designed for overbore rounds like 30-378 etc. (It's probably used in the factoryround)

Should be great in .25-06, .264WM, 7mm STW, etc.

Have not tested it yet.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 09:23:47 (EDT)

Nathan: We'll have to look into your request about acceptable group sizes at range. Did you want actual sizes shot during cometitive events, or just averages for standard weapon systems we have experimented with? Just to give you a primer, my rifle (700 PSS) averages about .5 @ 100, and .8 at 200. These are five shot groups and usually four go into one large hole. The gods have ordained that I NEVER keep all five in there! Mr. Bain's AT1-M24 is capable of a three shot four inch group at 900+ yards. I know this because I fired three rounds into a head sized target at that range. Time span of about three minutes. I will try to get some figures for you, on what you can expect from a tuned SWS, but like everything else in this world, the disclaimer will have to read, "shot on a particular day with a particular load, in so and so wind...ad nauseum". What you do not want is a rifle only capable of placing 5 shots into 14 inches at 600 yards like someone mentioned earlier. That is very bad accuracy at over 2 moa. Ideally you want to hold AT LEAST one moa at range. On a no wind day any rifle that would interest us, or you for that matter, should be able to shoot a 6" group @ 600 yards. Many can do better. I'll have more imperical data on the PSS this June as I will be taking it through another counter sniper course. Maybe Russ and get you some long range data on the Savage. Mr. Bain should be able to provide you better info on the M21 and M24. Also, for you heavy barreled AR15 shooters, if you are not well below sub moa, something is amiss. Good idea Nathan, doign research on this should prove interesting!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 10:42:50 (EDT)

Has anyone else been harassed by e-mail by someone named "Mercman"? Mercman@kalama.com Seems the "Mercenary" is willing to trash my chosen path for a career as a Police Officer wanting to get on the SERT team as a Marksman but won't sign his name. I was wondering if anyone else has had the same problem...

Nathan, thanks for the tips, and, of course, I am planning on being the best (insert job title here) when I get hired on in an agency first. I enjoy long range shooting and was pretty darn good at it as a Marine, and will pursue it further whether or not I get on a SERT team. Prarie dogging is a State Sport in Eastern Oregon. But a .338 Lapua would be overkill... Anyway, I am learning a lot from the site and am letting my schoolwork pile up beside me while I peruse this site in particular. Good luck in OK at Muskogee PD.

Has anyone had much experience with the H-S Precision rifles? How does the company rate? How do the rifles rate?
Michael Roberts <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Vernonia, Oregon USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 13:27:58 (EDT)

In reference to Nathan's request about rifle performance, I am asking anyone interested to send me any data they have compiled on their particular weapons accuracy at range. I would prefer this data to be that which you have verified more than once or twice as repeatable accuracy. We have all shot those incredibly tight groups at ridiculous ranges in our time. Repeatable accuracy is what we are looking for here, not the once in a blue moon aberration. For these purposes, I would like any data you have on your group size at ranges starting at 300 and extending out to 1000 yards. Preferably, you will have shot an average of five groups at any or all of these ranges, but I would like to hear about your experiences regardless. I will eventually post an article presenting the results. Please be honest in your assessment of you favorite rifles accuracy. If it shoots into .3 at times but consistently posts a .6 average, tell me the latter. Data for the mid to far ranges would be of most help as many rifles lose their ability to hold m.o.a after several hundred yards.

Please include rifle type, modifications if any, caliber, load data, and scope type. Wind data would be helpful if you have it.

Thanks all. You can consider this a group project and I welcome all useful input.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 14:43:19 (EDT)

Joe R: Rick's comment about using a cleaning rod across the knuckles of the wayword shooter is no joke. Or shouldn't be. Stress is a very good developer of memory. While induced stress may not be understood in this modern feel good society, it still remains one of the most effective ways of getting a student, any student, to sit up and pay close attention. Try to "abuse" your shooters a little. While you might not be able to hit them with a small stick (this works!) you can find other ways to make them miserable. Hee hee. You will be amazed at how well they begin to retain the info you wish to instill upon them. Example. I let my elbow stick out a while back when playing around with entry team tactics. The instructor whacked me good with his hand against my elbow. Guess what? It doesn't come up no mo! Simple, but effective.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 14:54:30 (EDT)

Just a word on semi-versus bolt action. The sniper is not supposed to get involved in a shoot out. Remember the old saying one shot one kill. Not 10 rapid shots and 6 kills thats not sniping thats an ambush. Im not saying if you shoot a semi your wasting ammo im saying its easy to engage too many targets with a semi.
Now you can jump on me
Take care all.............
Scott <reconsuply@aol.com>
dayton, ohio USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 22:52:13 (EDT)

I can always come up with a good excuse to get yet another rifle. Here is my latest one. After buying a Choate U.S.S. stock for my M70 .308 match rifle and weighing the thing on the bathroom scale. I find it much heavier than it needs to be for a 308 (about 17 pounds). So I am thinking about rebarreling it to .338 something or other. just to put that weight to good use. I have checked on 338 lapua (cases are very expensive), and 340 weatherby, also expensive. and I have decided to go with the 8 mm Remington magnum necked up to .338. Here is my question, Has this been done yet by anyone, Is there a wildcat using this case out there anywhere? If so where can I find information on it. Thanks to anyone in advance to anyone who can help me with this project.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 23:24:57 (EDT)

Scott of Dayton

One shot one kill is to denote accuracy, not necessarily the mission of the sniper. Yes, under most situations once the sniper triggers he must get out of the AO due to the attitude problem he usually creates in the gentlemen that are left in the immediate area of his shot. However, there are times when a target rich environment just begs for more shots. Also snipers also do odd things, such as support for the offense and the defense. This requires multiple target engagement. Remember, contrary to many movies, the sniper is not some sneaky ninja that runs around on his own. He supports the command's missions and those missions are varied. Thus the sniper's missions are varied. While the bolt gun has the edge for specific targeting at long range, the semi has the edge for many missions that are mid range and are "area" in nature, ie offense or defense.

I know guys I've been saying that the bolt gun is the gun but read back and I have mentioned the area sniper weapon. Many have the mind set of the sniper ambush only. The sniper mission is direct action in support of the commander's goals with an equal mission of human intelligence in support of the unit's S2. This is why one gun fits all does not work properly and a multiple gun concept is being used so the sniper can select the SWS required for his particular given mission.

Isn't it fun to argue both sides!!!!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 23:27:14 (EDT)

Thank you so much Scott, I knew that there should be an interest in group sizes. This will let me know several things. #1---Is my rifle up to par or is there still some improvement space here? #2---Is my (gasp) shooting up to par? #3---If my rifle can print into a, say, 8'' circle consistently at XXXrange, then I can theoretically make shots at that range all the time all things being equal. I am really curious. The BSM calls for a shot at 2000 yards. An MOA rifle will give us approx. 20'' at that range. Clearly unacceptable. Thank you so much again for your interest. Just how small can we get these groups to go down? Is head shot accuracy with a semi-auto at 900 yards really true? If so, I am impressed with both rifle and shooter. :-) Keep me posted, guys...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 15:50:16 (EDT)

To Scott from Dayton: The nice thing about a semi-auto in the sniping role is that the shooter does not have to move to reload. It is more a concealment thing. Police may need that second fast follow up, but for a guy laying in the middle of a field, working a bolt can spoil his whole day. I got nailed this way at a recent sniper course. Good hide, good cover, but the observer still caught the movement of me cycling the action. With the semi, this would not have happened. of course, had I not been 50 yards from the observer, it would not have happened either!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 19:40:51 (EDT)

An observation about the use of compensators and how they may affect accuracy-- it has been my experience that usually a properly made and installed (talking concentricity here) compensator does not significantly degrade or improve actual group size, BUT, the more effective it is at it's job, that is, reducing recoil and muzzle jump, the more it "relocates" your group. I believe this is caused not so much by the weight of the thing changing barrel harmonics as by the column of air rushing out ahead of the bullet at XXXX feet per second, activating the comp, pushing the barrel down before the bullet has exited. No prob, just resight-in.....not quite. We know that rifles shoot to a different point of impact depending upon how they are held or rested....off sandbags will do this, rested against the side of a tree will do that, offhand will do something else. I see compensators having a tendency to magnify this a great deal, because the less solid the support, the more the comp can move the barrel before the bullet exits. I make a pretty good comp for AR-15s and have seen this time and time again. Point of impact can change as much as 8" at 100 yds on a standard AR when a comp has been installed. My feeling is that a compensator may not be the hot ticket on a tack driving rifle that needs to print tight groups in the same location in a wide variety of conditions. I do have an AR with a very heavy Hart BR barrel on it. Into the end of the (1 1/4") barrel, I have machined a muzzle brake, not a comp, which is to say it has two large side ports and nothing on top to push the barrel down. This gun shoots under 1 MOA at least to 300 yards and group location is unaffected by how it is rested. This might be a result of the sheer weight of the barrel, but I believe it's because there is no top port trying to push the barrel down. On a bolt gun in a hard-kicking caliber, I think a brake is most appropriate as you have less or no need to restrain the muzzle from moving up in recoil-- you must cycle the bolt anyway. You are looking for relief at the shoulder, not a .2-second reduction in the time between shots. I should have done a careful, scientific test of this long ago but have not.... has anyone else noticed this and perhaps done a little testing?
Ned Christiansen <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 19:47:12 (EDT)

Nathan: First, a head shot at 900 yards with any weapon, bolt or semi, while doable, is more fluke than a repeatable event. For example: The aformentioned three shots I made at that range were into a steel human sillouette, NOT a moving, breathing, pissed off individual of foriegn liniage. To expect that kind of accuracy in the field would be setting yourself up for a major let down. Reasonable accuracy in the military theater is 1 moa. This is simply due to the nature of the shots taken. A body hit is a body hit. Bad guy doesn't need to die per sae, only hog up the other teams support systems and mental well being. Now, there is not a shooter worth his salt that wouldn't like better accuracy than 1 moa. There is also very few custom makers that will survive if that is all they can promise. But for an arbitrary cut off, 1 moa is the upper limit of what you want a military SWS to achieve. Half moa is better by far. Quarter moa is seldom needed, or achievable in the field, but there are rifles easily capable of it. You just can not hold it that precise when you are freezing, wet, ticked off, laying in dung, or pondering the meaning of life and the finer points of the unified field theory!

So, what does it all mean to you in your quest for skill and accuracy? If your rifle can shoot .5 moa off a bench, you should practice to the point that you can at least match that in the field. It is not always possible, but that is your goal. The AT1-M24 I used at SMTC could easily shoot .3 or .4 moa all day from the prone at 100 yards. But I was seldom able to match that at range in the wind or rain. I could come close, say .5 to .8 at any time, but execpt for those few rare moments of a steady wind, outshooting the rifle would have been impossible. If you shoot police oriented tactical scenarios, you want to be able to keep your shots into the size of a quarter at 100 yards from various supports. In any condition. That is a reasonable expectation. If you shoot military courses of fire, you should be able to make body hits to 1000 yards. Whether you are shooting a 5 inch group at 800 yards or an 8 inch group becomes somewhat irrelevent. The hit is the thing. Bad guy might care if you took his leg out or his arm or his pulminary system, but all you care is that he is out of action and either dead or too screwed up to carry the fight to your comrades.

My advice, for what it is worth, is to shoot at ranges over 400 yards as much as possible. Verify if your rifle holds sub moa at those ranges and if not, figure out why. I say to practice at longer ranges because it helps develop a sense of precision you do not get at shorter ranges. If you are limited to a 100 or 200 yards range, shoot at the smalest target point you can resolve in your scope. It will force you to slow down and concentrate.

Last thought for the day: If one shot one kill was the ONLY goal, we'd all be shooting single shot falling block actions. Rick has it totally right. The MISSION is the thing. It dictates all else.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 20:19:06 (EDT)

As Editor-in-Chief, it gives me great pleasure to announce Sniper Country's newest feature, the Sniper Country Emporium. If there's something you want to buy, sell, or trade, mention it on the Emporium. You'll ALL agree that we have an interest that calls for special gear which can be hard to find, even in catalogs, but chances are that if one of us doesn't have something, we know someone who does. I'd like to thank Marius Ferreira, Sniper Country's Foreign Assignments Editor, for his diligent and meticulous work on developing the Emporium. Marius, you've done a splendid job!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 01:12:14 (EDT)

Thanks once again Scott, I really appreciate this. I listened carefully and took notes. It is this type of detail and specifics that I want. I wrote this down and will refer to it. I am still interested in record group sizes at X range just for reference sakes, with caliber, rifle, optics, load, and maybe even conditions. I will sat to myself, "If X-ring can do this with this rifle and that range, lets see what I can do.." I hope I don't embarrass you too badly! Just kidding. I have a lot of learning to do. Seriously, lets see what the shooting masses can come up with. In light of the MOA requirements and expectations, can we really count on a 1700 to 2000 yard shot with a $2000 rifle and a standard loading? Scott, could YOU take that shot?
On another note, has anyone shot the White Feather ammo? How about the Powell Rivers Lab bullets? The Powell River Lab story told of shots with a .223 at 1000 yards. They even managed to chronograph a few rounds at 1400 fps with a 60 some odd grain bullet. I figure that would be on par with a .22 WMR at point blank range. It certainly has the capability to kill you, or at the very least ruin your day. Thanks again...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 01:25:21 (EDT)

I happen to think this is a great website. My friends and I frequently visit, I hope that shooting will attract more of the younger generation. I find that Carlos is a great person and a wonderful role model. Well that is all for now I hope to see you guys at Camp Perry this year for Highpower service rifle championships.
Sarah Covington <cerra13@hotmail.com>
canyon country, California USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 03:24:20 (EDT)

To: Steve / S.C.D.H., Ohio.
There is a cartridge called .338-8mm Rem.Mag(wildcat)made by necking up the 8mm Rem.Mag to .338 cal. It can, of course, also be
made by necking down the .375H&H and fireforming. This might be a better route, since good .375 brass is available, but the Remington
brass tend to be somewhat poor. RCBS for one makes dies for the .338-8mm Rem Mag. I have not seen any data on this cartridge, but it is
used to some extent as a hunting cartridge up here.
If you want to go for the .340 Weatherby, cheap brass can be made from .375 brass by necking down and fireforming. The .340 is an excellent long range
cartridge, and possibly the best .338 round if you don't want to go to the expense of specialty rounds like the .338 Lapua or Lazzeroni.
In my old Weatherby (26" barrel), the .340 will consistently produce over 2900 fps with a 250 gr bullet and no excess pressures.
Out of a 28" tube it would probably do 3000 fps.
On rebarreling a .308W / M70: The action / magazine will require some modification, so you might want to look at another action.
Good luck!

Hans
B.C. CANADA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 04:23:16 (EDT)

Hi Guys, I belong to a Military Firearms Club here in Canberra, Australia, I would like to compete in what we call a "Simulated Sniper" competition, I am looking at a Savage 110 FP in 25 - 06, only hitch is that the chambering must have been used by a Military, Para - Military or Police force somewhere in the world to qualify as a "Genuine" sniper rifle, could you help me out with some information to prove the authenticity of this combination?
Dave Groves <sjs@dynamite.com.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 07:49:57 (EDT)

Nathan: My AT1-M24 is the rifle X-Ring shot at Storm Mountain. Andy Webber provides along with the rifle, targets demonstrating that the rifle will shoot within .25 to .5 moa. In my rifle's case, the targets showed that the rifle shot groups of .342" and .347". That is five rounds at 100 meters at 60 degrees farenheit at about sea level.

Now, a lot of guys will come forward and say, "my out-of-the-box Savage, Winchester, or Remington can do that or better." I say "maybe." Many of these shooters with "wonder" guns base their measurements on 2-3 shot groups, or fail to measure their groups from the centers of the bullet holes. And many, in my opinion, are liars. These are the same guys who caught huge fish, bagged many-antlered game, etc.

So, one might say, "my rifle can shoot as good at the Armament Technology rifle and is much less that the over $3,000 [well over] that Bain paid for his rifle. Why waste your money?" Simple, your rifle won't last as long as the AT, it won't retain accuracy as long as the AT, and it won't take the abuse that the AT will. Recall that the Marines took out-of-the-box rifles to Viet Nam in the 60s for use as sniping rifles. They found that guns could not withstand the climate or the use.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:07:55 (EDT)

FOULING SHOTS:

Regarding the technique of firing a shot to clean the barell
before actually engaging a target in a tactical situation, I
must say that I believe it to be a very dangerous idea.

In a tactical situation, the sniper relies on surprise more
more than anything. You also must consider yourself to be
under observation AT ALL TIMES.

Fouling in a barrel is reduced by putting electrical tape or a
plug over the end of the barrel as a pre-combat check, and
by routine maintainence.

Also, why waste that round? If you insist on firing a fouling
shot then why not aim it at your target anyways? You might
just truly foul someones day.

SWS MAINTAINENCE IN THE FIELD:

Comments were made to the effect that a sniper should relentlessly
clean his weapon in the field. This has not been the case in
my experience. Every effort should be taken to ensure its going
to stay clean in the field (i.e. tape the end of the barrel, a removable
rag under a freefloating barrel which can be pulled out to remove
debris before establishing your FFP etc).
Further, the weapons generally are very reliable and can function
well with minimal care.

Also, the type of care a sniper weapon should be given when it
is given a detailed cleaning is a consideration. One should use a
one piece rod and different types of solvents and oils. This
is hardly acceptable in a tactical/field environment.

However, a sniper teams security concerns make stopping for
frequent detailed weapons maintainance an unwanted event. The
team does not have 30 infantrymen to post OPs, secy patrols and establish
a perimeter while they pull maintainence.

I am not saying its never done. But it is a task to avoid
if possible.

Keep it simple in the field. You are there to kill bad guys.
Don't confuse rifle range or competition tasks with the real
thing.

Then again, what the hell, its just my opinion.

Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:40:50 (EDT)

FIELD EXPEDIENT SUN SHADES:

Saw an article concerned about a Tasco scope with no space for
a screw in sun shade, suggesting using an anti reflective
coating. Good ideas for a real issue.

For us poor folk though, a set of womans nylons pulled over
the end of the scope helps alot, is more affordable, and alot
more fun to obtain.

This is an excellent web site and forum. I appreciate the
opportunity to participate and have already picked up some
good ideas.

Thanks to everyone.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:59:28 (EDT)

I want to become a sniper...So if you have any information please send it to me....
Brad Foss <Sniper693@hotmail.com>
Cornersville, Tn USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 14:49:36 (EDT)

To Hans,
Thanks for the info on the .338. My original intent was to buy the brass I needed and turn the rims down to the size of the .308 and avoid the bolt face problems and have a switch barrel system. I know several 1000 yard target shooters who have done this with no ill effects. I didnt know that rem. 8mm brass was of poor quality. May I ask, poor in what way? IF is is just a variance in weight, I'll sort them anyway. IF it is a non uniform thickness problem, that's something else entirely.
To Jeff,
The idea of a fouling shot in a sniping situation,was only in responce to a stated problem with semi-autos with regards to debris collecting in the gas system. Not to be used to clear the barrel. An expert in this field stated that the semi auto would probably never replace the bolt action in the field because of this gas system problem in an earlier post. Also in the articles and commentary section of this web site there is an article about first round variance of point of impact from the first round out of the magazine in semi auto. The idea of a fouling shot is only a stop-gap measure to reduce these problems. I dont like to think of it as a fouling shot, I think of it more as a double tap. And I think that the person who chooses the semi auto as his primary SWS would be well advised to do likewise.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 17:41:00 (EDT)

Nice web page.
B4DEATH <keene@sequent.com>
USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 21:06:52 (EDT)

Nathan: In all honesty, the only way I'd bother with a shot at 2000 yards is with a radio and an airstrike! I know people have made these shots but I view them as pretty unrealistic. More luck than anything. In my home state we have something called "the Original 1000 yard club". These guys have the best equipment available and in the last year or two did some experimentation at shooting at a full mile. While their groups were phanominal, they were still not so small as to guarantee a one shot hit. I guess I'd not be too interested in taking such a long shot with anything less than a .50 cal. I am a fair shot, but not THAT good!

On the Powell River Labs stuff: These folks are making miracles! Their developments are VERY interesting. Sadly, I can not afford their products or I'd have reviewed them for you by now!

Mr. Bains AT1-M24: Folks, there are no over the shelf rifles capable of this kind of accuracy. Not consistantly. This is what you pay for when you go with a purpose built rifle made by a top notch armorer. My PSS has printed groups in the .3s occaisionally, but not consistantly. Bain's AT1-M24 will do it all day as long as you do your part. As in all things, you really do get what you pay for!

Jeff: Good points all! By maticulous cleaning I was refering more to general inspection than actual bore chores. I would think that snipers tend to be gun cranks where as regular infantry just clean when forced to and have no intense interest in precision shooting or the required maintainence. But you are totally correct stating that daily cleaning is not possible. I can honestly say the the above mentioned AT1-M24 went 600 rounds before I got around to cleaning the bore and it never suffered more than a 1/2" change in zero. Most of the "cleaning" was simple wipe downs, scope maintenance and checking the barrel channel. I simply didn't have time to clean the bore. I'd rather let a bore go dirty than use a field issue segmented rod.

Sunshades: Butler creek now offers a thin version Tenabraex's KillFlash as the SportFLASH. It costs about $15. Also, it appears that TASCO now has a built in sunshade.

Fouling shots: My own opinion would be they are never acceptable or realistic. As was pointed out to me recently by Rick, the problem with the semi in a military environment is all the crude that can jam between the barrel and the gas tube, or the barrel and the free float tube. It would seem that the only answer is to have a completely exposed barrel with an aluminum or composit stock spaced well away. Not sure how to handle the gas tube. Expect any barrel shroud to fill with gunk during the stalk. Finding a fix for this should prove interesting. Till then, it seems unlikely that the semi will take over as the primary SWS. Were I a cop though, it would be the only system I'd carry. A semi makes a lot of sense for LE.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 21:53:13 (EDT)

Don't let X-Ring (Scott) fool you. He's a great shot. He has some problems with spelling and grammar, but shooting? No question, very, very good.

Don't let the understatement fool you. Scott will out-shoot most around.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 01:33:17 (EDT)

To Dave Groves: If you hunt around, I'm sure you will find someone, somewhere, who used the .25-06 in a sniping role. The chambering lends itself well to such an application, however, the problem for years upon years has been the lack of a source for premium match-grade bullets. Just recently, I've been told, Sierra has come out with bullets worth using in this chambering. (I haven't verified this information.) I can tell you that, with the right bullet, the .25-06 can do marvelous things. Let me know what you find out.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 03:00:23 (EDT)

I am building my first rifle, and would like some information on barrels please. There seems to be some conflicting information on cut vs. button rifled barrels any thoughts? how about Blackstar, worth the extra cash or just a gimick? (the barrel is for a .308) Thanks
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 03:53:53 (EDT)

To Mr. Bains and X-ring...
Thanks again. I took the info and wrote it down. Don't worry, I had already figured that I would have to plunk down my extra-big jar of pennies for a quality rifle. You guys justr about have me sold on the AT1-M24. Can you guys tell me more about the rifle or that man who put it together? Prices? In and outs or ect.? Specific loads and optics? Assuming a .308 bore diameter, the .342-.347 range is just about maxed out for a semi I would venture to guess. I also use the 5 round method for groups. Could you run down exactly how you measure your groups again? I want to be sure I understand. Some use the bore value against the hole diameter of the target, other measure center to center, others measure from the furthest points of the hole all the way to the other furthest point, and still others use an X high vs. X width method. It can get pretty complicated. It helps sometime if you make an abstact analogy, such as all rounds will hit a dime at X range...etc.
How about the "shooting masses"? Can you guys top this? What about the 1000 yard club guys? You mentioned they shot phenominal groups, well, just how phenominal? I know I must be getting on you guys' nerves, but understand that I am just a lowly plebe prostrating myself at the feet of those who possess a depthless fountain of wisdom far beyond my capacity to understand. There, that ...kissing ought to give me a follow up! When in doubt, appeal to their egos...
Good hunting...

Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 04:10:11 (EDT)

To: Scott and Mr Bain, Out of box accuracy.

I would say that there are no american factory rifles capable of this kind of accuracy. Only american custom or semicustomrifles like ATI-M24 are capable of that. In Europe the story is different. We are used to the "Anschutz-syndrome" when it comes to target or sniperrifles. That is out of box accuracy and shootability.

Price has ofcource something to do with things but there are "cheap" eurorifles out there.

The Scandinavian DCM's are using a standard targetrifle called Sauer 200 STR (Scandinavian Target Rifle). This rifle costs $1100 (US) + tax in Norway. Quick-change barrels are $200. The rifle is listed in GD97 as Sauer 202 TR Targetrifle, $1900/425. Mel's Sniperpage has a picture of the rifle called SSG-3000. There are 30-40000 STR's in shooters hands now in Norway (pop. 4 mill !). In any form of shootingevent, except benchrest, this rifle blows the others away due to its accuracy and shootability.
The gunsmiths hate the rifle. The only work they have left is an occational beddingjob. All other gunsmithing can be done by the shooter on the range.

Other more expensive european rifles capable out of box are: Accuracy Int, Blazer Tactical, Steyr SSG, etc

BTW, my favourite american rifle is the Wichita Silouette. I'd like to order one with the sidemounted mag. (stenguntype) and Anschutz trigger for sunshine sniping :-)

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 05:31:08 (EDT)

Mr. Bain, your confidence in my ability just gives me a great big warm fuzzy. But as I have merrily told anyone and everyone who would listen, the AT1-M24 you lent me was so good that you could just about sneeze and still make the shot! Andy Webber deserves the credit in this case! I want one of his rifles in a BAD way!
Scott <xring@voicnet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:11:24 (EDT)

Rich from WA: At the risk of irritating the many fine barrel makers out there, were I building a rifle from scratch there is only one barrel I'd consider first. Hart. Still, there are many fine barrels available. Shilen, Krieger, and Douglas some immediately to mind.

On BlackStar process: I just got my PSS back and will start the testing process out in the next month. As far as their barrels go I can not say. Does anyone else have an actual BlackStar barrel they can comment on?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:16:56 (EDT)

Nathan: first and foremost - our knowledge is not boundless or infinite. Believe me, we are learning every day. Anything I may know that you do not is simply due to the fact that I have been exposed to it, intentionally or otherwise over time. Folks like Rick (see his comments in the roster above) have far more field knowledge than I possess! Let it be known, all of us involved in SC are just normal folks. Some are sniper qualified, some are not, but all have an overwhelming drive to learn and share.

Now, as far as the AT1-M24. All groups mentioned were made with Federal Gold Medal, 168 grain match. If you want more info on the weapon itself, please read my review in the "In Review" section. You can follow the link to Andy's site. I believe his rifle is about $2000 minus optics. The rifle is a Rem 700 with a Mike Rock barrel, 5-R Obermeyer twist. Andy does not make the only worthy SWS out there, it just happens to be the one I played with most recently! You can figure on spending between $1300 to $3500 for any decent purpose built rig from many builders.

Group size: My method of late for measuring the FIVE shot groups is to meticulously measure the outside edge of the group, and subtract the bullet diameter. To make this simple, I measure the two farthest holes in the group. I have found it very hard to measure the exact center of a hole, as this involves some interpretation. Measuring from the edge gives you a visible mark to start from. But any of the methods you mentioned work.

TorF: I would not go so far as to say that there are no factory rifles capable of sub half moa. Depending on caliber, there are several that will regularly dip into this range. My 700 VS in .22-250 is easily a .4 moa rifle, Mr. Taylors .308 Savage 110FP is, if memory serves, a .5 to .6 rig. I believe his .22-250 shoots below that. My PSS will go into the .3s but not consistently. I have not been able to ascertain if it is me or the rifle! Logic says it is a little of both. I'll settle for an average of .6 moa for now. Keep in mind also that many of the groups mentioned are fired with 10x scopes, sometimes less. I have found that I can take a third off the group by using a 20x scope as I can hold a point with higher consentration. But to me, mounting a high magnification scope no longer qualifies the rig as a tactical rifle so I do not mention these groups.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:56:04 (EDT)

FOULING SHOTS

Steve:

You have a very valid point about the variance of a first rounds impact.
In the military, we call that a "cold barrel" zero and use our logbooks
to record and understand the variance. It can be overcome with a little bit
of record keeping and attention to detail.

By using this technique, you can overcome the tremendously risky tactical
disadvantage you would pose to yourself and your sniper buddy by using a fouling
shot. The military sniper team is at tremendous risk when it shows itself and should
never use a fouling shot. I am certain that in a real conflict, the sniper who uses
fouling shots routinely would not be long to this world.

Which is why I am harping on it a little bit. No disrespect or hard feelings intended.

SCOTT

It was a pleasure to hear your comment about using air strikes or indirect fire assets for
targets beyond one thousand meters. FO procedures are one of the most important skills a sniper
can have, yet are often not well developed ones. A good military sniper always designates TRPs to
cover his insertion, movement, actions at the obj, and extraction if they are available.

Glad to hear some of the military considerations regarding sniping.

Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:27:40 (EDT)

QUESTION:

What is an AT-1 M-24? I used an M-24 on active duty but have no idea what the AT-1 is?
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:37:50 (EDT)

To Scott, re. accuracy.

I'm very aware that factoryrifles shoot very well.

But if you take 50 rifles with consecutive(?, my english...) serialnumbers XXXX01 - XXXX50 quality varies to much on american factoryrigs.

If you buy an Anschutz, Steyr or Sauer match/sniper you know that you are going to get a perfect trigger and proven accuracy. You don't have to be lucky. All 50 rifles in the serialnr.range will perform.

With american rifles you have to buy a custum/semicustom to get this level of performance.

In Norway the today level of competition are such that you have to have quickchange barrels etc. It's not unusual to put 15-20000 rounds through the matchrig in one year.

I just wish that all rifles could have the same quality as Anschutz .22LR matchrigs.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:49:11 (EDT)

Just getting ready to attend the sniper courses at SMTC this June and now I'm gathering
my gear. Rifle, ghillie and ammo I have, of course but I need some help on other necessary
items. Anyone has any suggestions on what to include on the packing list?
Thanks
varminter <goranz@muskingum.edu>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:59:16 (EDT)

To Torf: I read your message about Out of the box accuracy with interest.I have a few comments to make about it.The European match/target rifles that you spoke of are for all practical purposes custom made rifles.You said that an occasional U.S. factory rifle is accurate but accuracy can't be guaranteed.I have 2 Rem 700 Pss s and 2 Savage 110FP s,all of them will shoot certain loads around .5",some loads will get smaller groups.I have 4 shooting friends who have 6 Savage 110 FPs and 2 Rem 700 Pss s between them and they all get similar performance out of them.
I also own a Steyr SSG69 which I like but it won't shoot as accurately as any of my U.S. guns.Most groups are around .75" to 1".Also I have a lot of trouble with those plastic rotary magazines.I can seldom go a full magazine without a round failing to feed.
About 10 years ago I was lucky enough to fire 50 rounds through a HK PSG-1,groups were only about .8",this out of a gun that cost about $6,000 at that time.
Don't get me wrong,Europeans make excellant guns but to equal the accuracy of U.S. made guns they cost 5 to 10 times as much.
I hope that in reading this that you didn't think that I wrote it in anger.This is all fun for me,I've been a serious long range shooter for almost 25 years.
Good shooting !!
Kodiak
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 14:23:12 (EDT)

What is the AT1-M24, you ask? Check out our review of this fine, “improved” version of the U.S. Army’s SWS.

As for what to take to SMTC, I recommend reading my article on the school and X-Ring’s piece as well.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 17:54:33 (EDT)

To Kodiak.

Yes the Steyr SSG is a dated design.

I had the Match-version with heavier barrel and .308win match-chamber. It shot very well.

I also had the mag.problems. It could be solved by giving the rotary spring an extra turn and only use fresh mags.

The SSG 69 has a machinegun-chamber to make it work with all types of 7,62NATO ammo wich is not identical to .308win. It sounds terrible but try necking down .358win-brass. It will probably fit the chamber better... If the action, chamber and rear lockinglugs, are soaking wet you can expect the first round to go up to 3" wide at 100yds...

I have a problem expressing myself in a foreign language...

What I mean is shootability not inherrent accuracy. I use a Rem 40XC KS and a Rem 700 VS for some formal targetshooting. If I want these rifles to be competitive I have to do something with them like changing triggers, springs, fireingpins(speedlock) etc.

BTW as a sniper I prefer an autorifle with a reliable QD scopemount that shoots sub-moa with regular machinegunammo. Fortunatly most Norwegian produced H&K G3's in good condition do that giving a sniperrange of 600m. Mission is weeks on end behind enemy lines usually on skis in the winter or stay behind in an occupied country (my uncle did 3 years playing cat and mouse with the Gestapo). Regular sniperrifles don't like that much except M98's with QD mounts. The feelgoodfactor of an auto in these surroundings more than compensates for the difference in accuracy.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 17:54:53 (EDT)

What to bring to the counter sniepr course? The short list:
Things other than the obvious: Lots of water carriers, be they camel backs, one QuarT or Two Quart canteens. Remember it is June and heat stroke will be a constant consideration. A Ruck with frame. You will use it! Plenty of 550 cord. Meals, Rearly Editable. A small set of shrub cutters. These are sort of like a pair of plyers, but cut brush. You will want to make a tripod out of some arrow shafts to stick in your drag bag. YOU WANT A DRAG BAG! Ghillie material for repairs. Gloves, bug juice, tylenol. You can chack out any of the manuals for a complete list of gear but you will end up not needing half of what they suggest. Travel light but carry what is essential. Figuring out what is essential will take you a few days. See you there! I'll be there for a refresher as will our inimitable Mr. Bain.

TorF: You have a point about triggers and other out of the box issues one might experience with stock US varmint/tactical arms. But for all that, they, at least in my humble experience, still shoot very well. For instance, every Remington I own came with a hateful eight pount lawyer driven trigger. Yet each one still shot just above half m.o.a. I just can not get to exercised about that. In fact I'd have to say bloody well done to these major labels for being able to crank out non-tuned, production fodder that shot so well. Particularly for the money. $300 to $600 US. On another subject: Feel free to regal us with stories about your uncle. I have a particular interst of the history in your neck of the woods during WWII.
Scott <Xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 21:15:26 (EDT)

Hello ,
I have a question regarding muzzles specifically what kind of crown is preferred on them ? I am not sure what to call the one that I have though it is fairly standard. It has a "step" in it, leaving a small band around the outside with a recess around the bore. I am asking because mine also has a very sharp ridge right around the bore ( the result I think of having a live center jammed in it when it was re chambered) So something needs to be done but I don't know if I should go with a deep crown to protect the bore , an 11 degree target crown or perhaps a circular concave like I have seen some.. achieved by lapping with a large brass ball. this is a very heavy shilen barrel straight taper at almost receiver diameter ( Reminton 700 ) at the breech tapering to 7/8" at its end , just under 25" away. ( it was a 28" blank but had the threads cut off for the new chamber thus the strange length) Any thought on this ? Oh by the way great site I have learned a lot . thanks
Dan <Greywuuf@alaska.net>
fairbanks, AK USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 23:51:11 (EDT)

X-ring, TorF, Kodiak, ...Thanks for the info. Once again I took notes and am slowly honing some knowledge I think I can use. The PSG-1 groups were nothing to write home about, and that is the very 1st time I ever heard of one being shot. TorF, try out a Ruger 10-22 with an aftermarket barrel and a synthetic or laminated stock. It is a semi-auto, cheap, easy to find accessories for, and has legendary reliability and the accuracy is superb. I have one with a laminated stock ($145), Butler Creek fluted stainless bull barrel, ($160 or so) and the base gun was about $180 or so. If you can get another receiver and 1 stock screw somewhere you can basically have 2 rifles. 1 for hunting/plinking and the other for serious plinking/competetion/whatever. I topped it with a Leupold Vari- X III 2.5-8x ($300 or so) and some cheap Weaver bases I got at Wal-Mart for $15 bucks or so. This rifle shoots great and is capable of sooooo much more with some more tinkering! Thats part of the fun. I have my eye on a BlackStar 10-22 barrel but my wife was really pissed off when I went out and bought a new gun and stripped it of everything but the receiver, so I will have to be sneaky about it. Women just don't understand. Another question for everyone....What is the world's most accurate semi-auto that can be used for tactical purposes? I want to hear some opinions. This debating is great and is done in the nicest way possible. Instead of arguing of whether we should even own guns or not we argue over the merits of semi- vs. bolt. Fouling shots or not. European vs. US rifles. This is great! Good hunting...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 03:38:20 (EDT)

Sorry, but I keep forgetting to add this everytime I write. About 4 or 5 years ago there was an article in Guns and Ammo about a 1-mile rifle. It was a custom rifle that I think Ross Seyfried tested but I may be wrong. I remember it weighed about 18 lbs. and had a synthetic stock with an American Flag coloring design. I think it was a wildcat .30 cal. I can't remember what it was bases off of or loads or velocities. He carefully measured 1-mile and made some hits on man sized targets at that range. About 1760 yards to be exact. I think the article said that if you doped the range wrong as little as 25 yards at that distance you would completely go over or under the target. I also remember the writer saying that if Carlos Hathcock got a hold of one, he could get on top of a hill and command 4 square miles. Scary. Anyone remember that? Can you refresh us? Also be on the lookout for a 20mm sniper system that was in Soldier of Fortune 1 year ago. Sorry about all my rambling and taking up space.
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 03:48:03 (EDT)

To Nathan:

Ross' rifle was a Ultra Light Arms (!) single shot chambered for .30/416 Rigby necked down and blown out.

The rifle had a Douglas barrel.

He used .50BMG powders getting 3500fps with 200-220gr bullets.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 04:19:15 (EDT)

To TorF:I'm glad that you didn't think that I was starting trouble .You are so right about the triggers on U.S. guns,but they are heavy so as to be lawyer proof not because U.S. manufacturers can't make good triggers.It is a sad fact of life in this country that gun makers are forced to put terrible triggers on thier guns to prevent being sued.I doubt if you have to worry about things like that in Norway.
I bet your uncle has some great stories from the war,too often people like that don't know that they are heroes.By the way TorF don't apologize for your English, it's excellant.

Nathan,I agree with you about the Ruger 10-22.I bought mine new in 1976 for $58,I must have fired a half million rounds through it and it still works as good as the day I bought it.I have the original factory barrel on it but it is plenty accurate enough to make me happy.You are also right about the type of discussion in here.Nobody arguing with or insulting anyone else,just good intelligent discussion.

Kodiak
USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 04:42:52 (EDT)

Shootability and hittingpotential.

We all agree that most interresting rifles will shoot .5 MOA or less from a rest. If you are going to hit something out there unsupported other things come in to play. I'll list the things that are important to me.

Trigger: If the rules or safe handling requires a 3ibs triggerpull a two stage trigger is the only way to go. 2ibs for first stage takeup and 1ib for letoff. I think Jewell is the only maker of such triggers for Remington actions. In Europe twostage matchtriggers for M98 and Krags are fitted to Win 70 actions. American Wichita-actions can be ordered for Anschutz-triggers.

Action-time: The timespan from the trigger is pulled to the bullet leaves the barrel. Shorter timespan = better hittingpotential. I have a great example. Take a Rem 700 and a 788. If all things are equal, accuracy and triggerpull, compare actiontime. If the triggers of these rifles are pulled at exactly the same moment the bullet of the 788 has left the barrel before the striker on the 700 has hit the primer. Wich rifle do you think has the best hittingpotential if you are firering on a live target and you are nervous, excited, etc. The same applies for targetshooting. The siluetteshooters know this. That's why speedlock are in business selling titanium fireingpins and stiffer fireingsprings. Any gun with a hammer has a big disadvantage unless it is a compromise for surviveability in the field. In top level ISU/UIT competition you don't have a snowballs chance in hell with a hammerrifle. 22RF autofans should look at Brownings stikerfired takedown and rebarrel it AR15 style and mounting scope on a tubular handguard round a freefloating matchbarrel.

Recoil: This has nothing to do with coping with recoil but how you can handle it. Any sniper should be able to shoot a .5 moa group with 5 shots from different positions with different type of rests. If the rifle is chambered for .308win it is easier to do this with a 150gr bullet than a 168gr or 190gr. Differenses in recoil, barreltime and movement of the gun in an angle compared to barrel centerline affects hittingpotential. This problem can be solved by adding weight but I'be never seen a sniper with a gunbearer safaristyle. Accuracy is also affected by the type of rest you are using. Shooting groups with shots from different positions I have never been able to get .5moa groups unless I have my left/supporting hand between the rest and the rifle. This seems to some degree eliminating differenses in gunvibration from different types of rests. Bipods, hmm... They work on varmintrounds.

Ballistics: Another time :-)

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 06:44:43 (EDT)

Dan, on crowns: If you plan on using the 168 grain Sierra or equivalent projectile, yes, you do want an 11 degree crown. It is said to provide the most accuracy with this boat tailed design. The downside of this is that an 11 degree crown is easily damaged when compared to a typical factory 45 degree crown. You limit this danger of course by recessing the crown, usually with a slight counter bore. Crown repair is inexpensive and worth the $20 odd dollars. There is little difference between a recessed crown vs. a concave crown. Both are effective at protecting the edge of the crown proper.
Scott <xring@voicent.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 08:35:32 (EDT)

TorF, could you elaborate on your comment? "I have never been able to get .5moa groups unless I have my left/supporting hand between the rest and the rifle."

What position are you talking about? Prone from a bipod? I am curious as shooting a .5 moa group didn’t seem particularly troublesome with a bipod rest and a bean bag under the buttstock steadied by the off hand. Of course, this was a bolt gun with a free floated barrel. You did mention earlier you are equipped with a G3? Could your handguard be imparting pressure upon the barrel in the same manner as a stock AR15?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 08:47:03 (EDT)

TorF: Sorry, I just reread your comment. Obviously no bipod was employed. I think I see what you meant now. Often shooters will fint it helpful to place a boonie hat or pad under their rifle when placing it against a support. This frees up their off hand and absorbs some of the movement. Still, a free floated barrel should eliminate some of the problem.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 08:50:18 (EDT)

To Scott:

My rifles seems to "bounce" differently when resting the stock directly on different rests. This is with boltaction match/sniperrifles with freefloating barrels. I eliminate the problem in the field by putting my hand between the stock and the rest/sandbag/fence/whatever.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 09:18:10 (EDT)

TOR:

I was real interested in the commnents about your uncle's role
as a sniper in WWII. Although I was regular army for quite a
while, I am now in a National Guard Mountain Infantry unit that
trains with the Norwegian ski troops.

One of the major problems we have is understanding that standard
light infantry tactics are not what we should be using given our
mission.

The Norwegian ski troops performed admirably against its invaders.
Any comments about what you uncle did are appreciated and
respected.

Jeff
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 09:51:54 (EDT)

Scott,

Some accuracy figures:
1. Rem PSS, action bedded in the aluminum bedding block, with Brownells steel bedding
compound barrel has been pressure lapped with the Neco process. (much less fouling).
Federal 175gr Gold Metal, chrongraphed at 2625fps, temp 72deg. This rifle shoots 1"
to 1 1/2" groups at 200yards, and 4 1/2" to 5" groups at 550yds. These results have been
within the last 3 weeks, with no wind free days. I have worked up my reload for
this, as follows: 42.2gr 4064, Fed match primers, and the original case. Same
velocity, and the same accuracy. The Fed cases that I have from the 168gr match
are lighter, and I have not played with them yet. The 168gr and the 175gr both
show the same grouping. The 168gr are showing 2680fps. The above are 5 shot groups.

2. Winchester M70 HB 308. This rifle has the stock SS barrel, with the action bedded
as above. It actually shoots a little tighter than the PSS. It has shot a several
1/2" 3 shot groups at 200yds. This gun seems to like Rem 308 match ammunition.

3. Rem 300win, 26" Shilen barrel, (#7 contour I think), H.S. adjustable stock, also
bedded as above. Ammunition is Win case, Fed match primer (not mag). 67.2gr 4350,
200gr MK, with a velocity of 2815fps. This shoots just about ther same as the
above PSS.

One story about the 300win. I had not shot this gun for about 2 years. Loaded up the
above ammo, and 2 weekends ago,and shot it at 550yds. I told my wife that I needed
her to spot my 1000yd target (concrete slab, 36" high by 30" wide). I did not have the
comeups, so ran the Sierra Balistics program, and it showed 28.5 min up from the 200yd
zero. There was a light wing from 1300hr. Held at the rt side, half way up. I did
not really expect to hit it, but it was a perfect head shot at the top of the concrete.
Really impressed the wife. The rest of the shots were ok, but not as good as the first.

If anyone is from the W. PA. area, let me know if you want to shoot. The 600yd range is
150yds from the house, and the 1000yd is just a little further...Ken

Ken Potter <kpotter@pulsenet.com>
Clarksville, PA USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 12:16:51 (EDT)

Repeater vs. Single, I spoke with one of the fellows that did the testing at Savage. The Barrel was not swapped and only 10 shots were fired out of each gun. It also was a long time ago.
Is anybody aware of any other comparisons that were done between repeaters and singles? It doesn't appear that there is much difference.

Second for those of you had helped me decide which gun to get. My 308 12fvss Savage came in last night and is now off for the barrel to be freeze dried and the action accurized.

I didn't even take it out of the box. Man I can't wait.

Tom
Front Royal, VA USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 13:24:06 (EDT)

Seems like maybe we should rate our rifles by their largest
group size? Since that's the one that could really matter.
Uhhuh?!
Bill Rogers <brogers>
USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 15:15:01 (EDT)

TorF: You mentioned that you like light triggers,so do I but triggers can be too light.A very light trigger is too easy to pull by accident especially in a combat situation where all your concentration is on your target.Also a small bump or twig can fire the gun by accident.When it comes to lock time yes the Rem 788 is faster than the Rem 700 but the difference is very small.Silluette shooters are firing from a standing position and no matter how hard they try, their gun still moves around on them.This movement means locktime is more important to them.Snipers on the other hand don't shoot from a standing position.When shooting from a rest the locktime difference is insigificant to accuracy.If the sniper happens to be shooting at a moving target a long distance away,the shot will be so hard to begin with that the difference in locktime again will be insignificant.Benchresters shooters might like the faster locktime because a group size .001" smaller can mean the difference between winning and losing a match.I've never tried a titanium firing pin on one of my rifles yet but last summer one day at the shooting range I talked with someone who put one on one of his rifles.He told me that he thought it was a waste of money because he noticed no improvement in accuracy at all.
When it comes to bullet weight you shouldn't sacrifice accuracy by going to a lighter bullet (going from 168 gr down to 150gr)just because the recoil is a little less.Practice with the 168s until you get used to them or get a thicker recoil pad,better yet both.
I'm not sure what you meant when you talked about shooting from different angles.Shooting uphill or downhill will not affect your accuracy,it will change your point of impact.You have no control over the terrain or where your target happens to be.Holding the gun at a cant where the axis of the scope is rotated to the left or right in relation to the axis of the bore can be controlled.This again will not change the accuracy,only the point of impact.You said that this can be controlled by adding weight,this is not true,no matter how much weight you add, holdng the rifle at a cant will change your point of impact.
I'm afraid that I'm making this too long so I'll end here.Have a nice day!
Kodiak
USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 16:40:09 (EDT)

To anyone interested in such matters.
After building various odd bolt action heavy barreled tactical rifles be they m700 actions, m70 actions or m98
mauser actions I have come to expect them to perform around
1 to 1 1/2 inch 10 shot groups at 200yards no matter what
I chamber them for. be it 8mm06 all the way down to .243
I also collect old ww2 battle rifles and i havent bought one
yet that would not shoot into 3 to 4 inch 10 shot groups or
better at the same range.

To the guy who wondered how his 14 inch group stood up.
My experience in competition long range shooting.
If I were to shoot a 20 shot group at 600 yards into 14 inches, prone with open sights I would be VERY happy with it. A five shot group is not so hot but may not be indicative of your rifles grouping ability or your skill. Shooting at 600 yards is difficult because of the wind.
Shooting at 1000 yards can be a humbling experience.
I have witnessed several occasions at 1000 yards where NRA
classified expert shooters have walked off the firing line
after firing 25 or so shots and never once hit a 6 foot
square target. Even if one becomes skilled at estimating
what the wind is doing at the firing line it takes far more
skill to estimate what the wind is doing at all ranges between you and the target. I have been playing this game
for 25 years and I only consider myself mediocre at this
wind doping business (and that is on a good day.)

Steve <nato@bright>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 19:28:05 (EDT)

SEEKING FIELDCRAFT PHOTOS

Anyone who has any sniping photos who DOES NOT OBJECT to having them
included in a student handout, please forward them to me via email.

Any photos of snipers are welcome, but I have a real need to show:

Sniper firing positions using a shooting sock/bag
Ghillie suites
Hides (urban/rural/varying environments)
Terminal ballistics results on various media such as concrete, wood etc.
Proper/Improper camo
Insertions/extractions
Different stages of weapons maintainance.

Any photos used will contain a credit to the sender, provided he provides a
name and organization.

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 19:51:47 (EDT)

SEEKING FIELDCRAFT PHOTOS

Anyone who has any sniping photos who DOES NOT OBJECT to having them
included in a student handout, please forward them to me via email.

Any photos of snipers are welcome, but I have a real need to show:

Any photos used will contain a credit to the sender, provided he provides a
name and organization.

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 21:50:42 (EDT)

Welcome,
First time to this site, have been reading it for about a month.
To Steve (NATO) I'm curious, of what type of gun that these Experts were using to shoot at 1000 yds. I like shooting too, I shoot Springfield's M1A. The first time I shot it out of the box was at 1000 yds in a match, I was impresed at its accuracy. It still has factory Winchester barrel, only modification so far is N.M. flash suppressor,N.M. gas system, N.M. Front sight and what is refered to as a five pillar bedding to the stock that I did myself. At 1000 Yds. the second shot was on paper, after that minor sight adjustments only. I did compete with the bolt gunners and they couldn't believe a stock M1A could do this. Well I'm ex-Marine, expert too. Maybe that helped alot, But shooting at 1000 yds. can be done with a semi-auto, with open sights too. Any comments? Like to hear good or bad I'm human.
B.G. <balloot@fone.net>
Pueblo, Colo. USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 01:41:54 (EDT)

Bill: I love it! Very funny.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 09:27:16 (EDT)

To: Steve / S.C.D.H.
In my experience, Remington 8mm cases have had case necks of very un-uniform thickness, and they vary greatly in weight. Many shooter that I have talked to feel the same.

Muzzlebreaks: Over the last few years, I have tried various muzzlebreaks (KDF, Boss, Magnaport,etc.) on high power rifles. They all do the job of reducing recoil, but at a price of increased noise levels. Some break manufacturers claim that the ports on a break have to be cut evenly around the break in order to maintain accuracy. However, if you look at some tactical rifles (Sako TRG, Dakota Longbow, AW,
etc.) the ports on the muzzlebreaks are only on top and sides. This is, of course, to minimize the dust signiture when shooting prone. My questions are:
*To maintain good accuracy, does it matter if the ports are evenly around the break, or only on top / sides?
* Is there breaks that are not recommended?
If anyone has experience with this and want to share their thoughts, it would be greatly appreciated!?

Hans
B.C. Canada - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 11:18:18 (EDT)

NIKON: I got a copy of "Advanced Rifle Training for the Sniper/Observer" from our local FBI field Office. I do not see a publication number. The book is about 80 pages with much internal/external ballistic data.

DOG2197: Thanks for your help. Your FAX was busy yesterday.

Rick & XRING: Thanks for my rebolting training problem. Multiple targets and verbal assault (ala Plaster) seems to be working. Thanks again...

Triggers and stuff: My agency lets me adjust our Remington PDM 700's to 3.5 lbs. That seems to work for us. We are limited to factory ammo, and are using the 168 gold medal. What about this new Federal Tactical ammo? We only practice out to 300 yds since the AVERAGE police shot is 75 or so... I would love to see what I could (couldn't?) do at 1000. We got new drag bags from Remington which are working out well. I think they're made by Assault Systems. Remington Law Enforcement price was 150.00. Well gotta go, boss is looking....stay safe/Joe

Joe R <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, wa USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 14:39:25 (EDT)

I would like to know why the 6.5x55 swede is not used for use in sniper rifles. Everything I have read about the accuracy of this caliber would lead me to believe that it would be good. I'm puzzled.
Michael Tutay <mtutay@ibm.net>
Chandler, Az USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 16:14:01 (EDT)

I realize this is primarily a rifle message board,
but I have a few questions about handguns.
1,) How loose should the barrel be in a 92FS,
when the slide is locked closed? I looked at
a few of them that appeared to be fairly new,
but I could wiggle the barrel a bit with my finger.
If not for that I probably would have bought one.
2.) .45 or 9mm? This will be my first handgun,
I have shot .38, .45, 9mm, and .40S&W at rental
ranges, and preferred the recoil of the P14-45
to the harshness of the Sigma in .40 S&W.
The .38 feels to small, and the 9mm I tried was
a Kahr K9 (small, and quite violent), but I think a
full size nine like the 92FS might be more
manageable.
Any comments are welcome, and thank you
for your time.
Rick <Rick_Ankney@Avenor.com>
ON CAN - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 16:45:01 (EDT)

Michael Tutay: Regarding 6.5 Swedish, check out Andy Webber's page (Armament Technology). I believe he has an article on this cartridge. Also, check out Mel's Sniper Page. He reports that Federal is selling 6.5 match ammo (if I read the piece right) and the ballistics are the same as the 168gr BTHP loaded match ammo.

Rick of Ontario, Canada: I like both the .40 S&W (H&K USP) and .45 ACP (Gunsite Custom Springfield 1911 and Colt Commander). I have the Browning HP and the Glock 17 to and find them very enjoyable to shoot. What are you going to use the pistol for? Aren't there restrictions on pistol ownership in your country? Are you L.E.?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 17:35:41 (EDT)

Attention! Attention! Attention: Those of you who wish to compete in the Hathcock Charity but have not signed on due to the lack of a Team Mate, please contact me. I will compile names and put you into contact with each other. You can then get together via email or phone and arrange to attend as a team. Come on folks, lets not let the Hathcock’s down for the lack of a partner. I know everyone prefers to be teamed with a known partner, but as has been pointed out before, the goal is to help Carlos. View this as an opportunity to deal with a real world scenario of being teamed with an unknown shooter. It happens. You might be surprised by the quality of partner you get! My goal of 30 teams is only one third met. I need YOUR help to make this event a success.

Those of you who are coming as a spectator, consider bringing your shooting gear. Chances are you may be able to team up on the spot with others of like mind. Thanks to all of you who have signed on. Those of you who have been waiting to make up your mind, here is your chance. Mothers Day weekend is just three and a half weeks away!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 17:39:10 (EDT)

Rick.. Some movement is usually experienced with any good auto. If it doesn't it may tend to be a bit unreliable.
A lot of good Colts don't move but they are suspect in a
serious gun fight and may be too tight causing a number of
problems.
The 92 Ber is an excellent weapon. 9mm vs larger calibers is
a real can of worms but if you use good hollow points and
the range is close the 92 is capable and very reliable.
The sig is good but I find it uncomfortable in cal larger than 9mm to shoot.
The glock can be a death trap but the 9mm is the best one.
The HK USP is my favorite. I prefer it to all but the 92
would be my next 9mm choice. Look out! there goes the worms!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 18:01:08 (EDT)

To Michael Totay.

6.5X55 is not used as a sniperround because it's not officially adopted as a military round anymore.

It is very much in use as a target/matchtround. The scandinavian DCM shooters can choose between the 6.5 and 308win in their Sauer 200 matchrifles. At least 90% of the shooters go for the 6.5X55. I think no major national match has been won with 308win. 308win has an advatage in barrellife. As a sniperround it is also better if you have to shoot trough windows etc.

There are several different types of factory matchammo to choose from. Raufoss/Sierra, Norma and Lapua makes ammo for different types of competition.

Ammo for longrange fieldtarget (exellent snipertraining) are best for sniping. A typical fieldtarget round is loaded with a 140gr HPBT match, BC .600, at 2850fps. Trajectories and winddrifttables are almost identical to the .300winmag sniperround. Recoil is less than any .308win load wich makes it easier to shoot well.

Ammo for 200m and 300m formal targetshooting are the usual 140gr bullet at 2600fps for increased barrellife.

Juniorshooters has a redused load for 100m target. Bullet has to be 100gr at 800ms (ca.2600fps).

Reloaders are experimenting a lot with VLD bullets in the 109gr to 130gr range at high velocities. Norma has a factoryround with a 130gr VLD molycoated bullet, BC .548, at 900ms(ca.2900fps). This is the flattest shooting nonmagnum factoryround I've ever fired. With a 300m/330yds zero bulletdrop is only 16cm/6.5" at 600m/660yds.

American barrels for 6.5/.264 are usually tighter than their european couterparts. Douglasbarrels perform exellent giving higher veloceties than anything else. The above mentioned Normaammo has been clocked to almost 3000fps in a huntingrifle with a 24" stainless Douglasbarrel. If anyone has plans for a 6.5 I recomend a 1-8" twist.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 18:27:19 (EDT)

OOPS!! Bulletdrop for the Norma 6.5 130gr VLD is 160cm/63" at 600m/660yds. I'm not braindead yet but close!!
TorF
Oslo, Norwat - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 18:33:56 (EDT)

WW2

I said earlier that my uncle played cat an mouse with the Gestapo for 3 years. I mentioned it just to show that a mission can be long in this country. He was not a sniper but served in a underground army called MILORG in the Oslo area. He does not like to talk much about it. He was rewarded above average after the war. I think he was doing dirty work handling traitors and dangerous persons.

There has been written a lot of books in norwegian about the subject. Some has been translated to english. I can recomend "Report from nr. 24" by Gunnar Soensteby. He was leader in one of the sabotageunits in Oslo. Incredible stuff.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 18:54:10 (EDT)

I wish to thank Ken Potter on the accuracy info. Because of feedback I and whoever else keeps track of this stuff is slowly getting an idea of what is normal accuracy at X distance. To TorF, I am consisently and pleasantly surprised at the knowledge you show of the art of the rifle, and I am also glad that you can give us the European angle on these things. Please keep up with the detailed load info. I take written notes on this type of stuff and all of it is appreciated. Also, thanks for the Guns and Ammo article refresher. I thought of this rifle as an example of what you would need to make the shot that is in the Ballistic Solution of the Month. That shot might be doable from about a mile, but you are going to need a wildcat round and probably more than a couple of grand for your rifle! Everyone, keep sending in the accuracy data. I would love to hear from 1000 yard shooters and what kind of groups they can get. Also, how about those VLD bullets? Do they really work? Is the accuracy better? Velocity retention? Hit me with the details no matter how excruciating! TorF, try a Ruger 10-22, you will be glad you tried! Good shooting...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 20:21:03 (EDT)

Bill Rogers: Thank you for your comments. What sets the USP apart from the rest? What is a USP worth in the US? I ask because prices on the net for a P14-45 in SST seems to be approx. $750 U.S. (correct me if I'm wrong), and a Canadian dealer I talked to recently quoted me $800 CDN. All too familiar with the terrible US/CDN exchange rate (35% on a good day), I am confused as to why more Americans are'nt shopping on our side of the border. Apparently Para-Ordnance manufactures the pistols in Ontario, maybe this accounts for the price difference.

Mr. Bain: I plan to use the gun basically for punching paper. Yes there are restrictions on handguns in Canada. The following is the way I understand the laws as they have been explained to me. You must first aquire an FAC (Firearms Aquisition Certificate ... required for the purchase of ANY firearms), this requires taking a 16hr course which involves safe handling of various firearms, and a final exam ($150). You must take proof of passing this course to your local Provincial Police station, along with a passport photo, your FAC application, and three signed references which WILL be checked. They mail this to the Capital, and if everything checks out in 8-10 weeks you recieve and FAC in the mail. Now you can buy a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun you must send your FAC
to the dealer you are buying the pistol from. They send your gun to the nearest police station. The police call you to come and pick up your gun. When you arrive at the station, you are issued a permit to convey, and a permit to store (providing your storage facilities are satisfactory). This allows you to take the gun to your house where you MUST lock it with a trigger or cable lock, and lock it in a cabinet, the ammunition must be locked in a separate container. This does not allow you to shoot your gun. You MUST become a member of the local gun club, and recieve their blessing in order to get a permit to carry it to the range (directly from your house). To get their approval you must take a handgun course from the gun club ($25), and of course pay your membership dues ($70). In order for the club to sign for your permits, you must come out to the range at least 3 times a year. Finally I am a civilian (L.E. means Law Enforcement right? ... I believe I am more of an F.N.G.)
Thanks again.
Rick <Rick_Ankney@Avenor.com>
ON CAN - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 21:37:34 (EDT)

TOR:

Thanks for your note about your uncle's role in WWII

EVERYONE ELSE:

Thanks for the emails and faxes. I am having some problems printing the student handout from my computer since I scanned some photos into it, since my printer doesn't have the memory sufficient to print it all.

Thank you for you patience in waiting. Your requests have not been forgotten.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 22:29:42 (EDT)

To Jeff,
Yes, the M1A can be used at 1000 yards, I have done it
myself. Like I said, I started shooting a long time ago,
before chronographs were popular or affordable. Also before
it was common knowledge that the military fmj 174 gr. boatail military bulet was superior to the 168 gr commercial. bullet at 1000 yards. An M1A shooting a bullet
that is not flying above the speed of sound at 1000 yards
is not a good 1000 yard gun.
The rifles used then arent much different than the ones
used now, When good shooters have trouble at 1000 yards it
is usually because they are unfamiliar with the windage and
elevation settings for that range. + they have someone behind them with a spotting scope trying to help them get on
target and giving the shooter bad advice as to which direction to move their sights or mistaking someone elses
bullet impact or the wake for their shooter's round. A few wrong turns on the elevation or windage knobs and it is easy
to loose count.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 01:08:48 (EDT)

To Mr. Bain and TorF:
Gentleman thank you for the wealth of information about the 6.5 I greatly appreciate it. I'm building myself a sporter with this caliber, so all the added information that I can get is helpful. Once again Thank You.
Michael Tutay <mtutay@ibm.net>
Chandler, AZ USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 01:24:16 (EDT)

To Scott: Regarding my Savage 110FP's group size, my usual groups are a half inch, yes -- but at 200 yards. I rarely shoot at 100 yards, and longer distances reveal more quickly which load is better than others when I'm testing my handloads.

And to answer your question, I've had BlackStar do two of my barrels, my 110FP Tactical and the one for The Wrath of God. They also gave the latter a double cryogenic freezing.

To Dan: On muzzle crowns, the main thing is to protect the rifling. The last inch -- indeed, the last fraction of an inch, is the most critical to the accuracy of each shot. All other matters are cosmetic. Again, you want to protect the crown. I recommend having a gunsmith with the correct tools (read, "lathe") do the work for you. Even if you were a machinist and could do the work yourself, you'd have to buy the tools (probably from Brownells) -- but for a one-time job. Just spend the money on a good gunsmith.

To Nathan and/or Torsten: Research that rifle which Ross Seyfried tested and get back to me as soon as possible. (Too bad it isn't a factory chambering less than .40 caliber.)

To Tom: Who did you speak to at Savage? What you reported is completely opposite of what I was told, and I was very specific about the methods of their test. Regardless, test or not, a solid receiver has to be stronger than one with a substantial amount of metal removed and, again, if repeaters were "the ticket" to great accuracy, the benchrest guys would all be using repeaters. I'll call Joe DeGrande at Savage, or one of the other engineers, but I'd like to know who you spoke to, Tom. You're having your 12FVSS' action "accurized?" Huh? Are you having the locking lugs lapped? The barrel threads trued? The bolt raceways polished? The trigger lightened? If you're having the lugs lapped, then I have two comments: 1) you wasted your money, because the Savage's bolt head design virtually negates this work being necessary, and 2) if you did have the lugs lapped, then to do the job properly the barrel should be set back and reheadspaced. If you're not having the lugs lapped into 100% contact, then it shouldn't have been done in the first place, although if that's the case you probably won't need to worry about headspace.

To Bill: On rating rifles by their largest group size, for a sniper and/or a hunter the group that matters is the "cold" group, not the one you get when the barrel's been heated due to a prolonged shooting session. Other than this, I'd agree with you.

On the Carlos N. Hathcock Charity Sniper Competition: Seconding Scott's plea for individual shooters to step forth, I have to tell you that on the events where I went prairie dogging with "unknown and assigned" partners, that I learned a lot, made one or more friends, and had the time of my life -- which is to say, "fun." If you're an individual shooter who's been thinking about this event, but haven't made up your mind, ask yourself this. Who needs the (your) $150 more -- you, or the Hathcock family? And if you've been wanting to get some sniper training, this is about as good of a "taste" of it as you'll get anywhere! Make the commitment, spend the money, TELL YOUR FRIENDS, and do the deed. Also, take a look at the prize list -- it's still growing. Chances are very good that you won't come home empty handed... and SIX of you are coming home with trophies!!! What part of "sign up" don't you folks understand? And if you've got a police department nearby, as I'm sure you do, call or visit them and tell them about the Hathcock charity shoot. Got a Reserve or Guard unit in your area? Tell them. Hand out applications (screenprint them from our site). Got a gun shop close by? Ask if you can leave a stack of applications on their sales counter, and maybe put up a flyer on their bulletin board if they have one.

If you don't make it to this shoot, lads, you're going to regret it.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 03:17:02 (EDT)

Quotable Quotes: "I am convinced that Lieutenant Colonel Norman A. Chandler, USMC, (Ret.), has designed and assembles the very best military/law-enforcement long-range sniper rifle in the world, bar none."

"Built to exceed USMC specifications, the Chandler Sniper Rifle is the most accurate long-range sniper system SOF has ever tested."

Peter G. Kokalis
S.O.F. magazine
May, 1998 issue (page 36)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 05:21:56 (EDT)

On the 9mm vs 40 vs 45. For punching paper, the 9mm probably makes more sense as it is easier to handle in recoil and many shooters find it simple to shoot, depending on handgun size. Less expensive too so you practice more. For defensive carry, the issue is moot. From standard distacnes, 0 to 15 yards, any and all of the cartridges mentioned will do the job. Bad guy won't know the difference between a few percentage points as long as you use the best hollow points available in your chosen cartridge.

The 92 is a very fine weapon, if it fits your hand. I find the Berreta Couger a little more comfortable as its grip closely matches the ergonomically correct CZ-75 type grip.

Bill's comment about the can of worms is VERY true as many people are unecessarily caliber conscious and always assume the .45 rules. But it only rules if you can be accurate, comfortable and fast with it. The point? Shoot what works for you, not what chest thumping afficianados or gun magazines tell you is best. Both the 9mm and .40 will get the job done as effectively as their big slow brother. The can of worms issue resides only in the minds of those unwilling to consider options other than their favorites. Practice is the real issue with any handgun. You can not shoot effectively if you only play with your chosen tool a few times a year.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 09:59:32 (EDT)

Russell your point about hot barrels is agreeable to me I usually think of groups as no more than 5 since target work is not my main pursuit. Although it was more of a tongue in
cheek comment anyway it does have some merit. A lot of time
is spent on how small a group the rifle is capable of shooting. But if it throws one occassional.(flyers everyone
calls them) It is really apt to cause trouble to someone
engaged in the business of precision shooting. Some calibers
are more prone than others such as .243 .270 etc. I once wanted to illustrate this to a group of collegues so I programmed a computer to shoot groups. It would fire a group
of x number of rounds inside a circle of x diameter. A random number was used to place the round inside the designated area. There were scads of 1" or less groups even
when the size was set on 3" or more. Although the random aspect would not be real life the point is that a bullet has
to go somewhere and because it does good once in a while is
not the final word. You are so correct about the cold group
as I have promoted rifles that shoot the first shot in the
right place above all others and of course those that shoot
a lot know that that is the first sign of a good rifle. Those that blow the first one away are of little use to me.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 11:56:18 (EDT)

Rick... You probably could buy a USP in the U.S. around $500 to $550 without the night sight option. The USP is
much lighter in disturbing recoil than most unported guns.
Keep in mind that Hand's vary from person to person. IT will
set up to shoot either right or left handed and drops the
well made clips easily for rapid change and is ultra reliable and not finicky about ammo. Accuracy is above average whether or not that is due to the hex rifling or not. And the weight is more acceptable than all steel guns
and it is much tougher than most. Takes down nicely and has
no parts that get lost easily. The grips are ready to go and
there are no body punching edges to make it uncomfortable.
I might point out that I am not a big HK fan but this one I
like. Trigger is excellent and the gun works in all modes
single,double, or any combination thereof without making it
so complicated as to get you killed. IT is my favorite hand
gun of all time. Whoops there go the damn worms again.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 12:14:43 (EDT)

Attention:

I am looking for information on the following military match cartridges: M72; M118; M852; and M118 LR. I'm also looking for information on the 173 gr. International Match bullet of 1956, used in the T275E1 and -E2, and the 173 gr. bullet used in the T275E3 and -E4.

Bain

P.S. Bill, the USP is my favorite pistol too. The HP is more accurate, the 1911s more fun, but no pistol has as many good features as the USP. Too bad the company that makes it is so uptight!
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 12:24:33 (EDT)

HANDGUNS: There is no question that the .45ACP is THE best handgun cartrige, bar none. On top of that, there is no comparison to the 1911. IMHO, the Para Ordnance P14 (steel frame) is the ultimate combat handgun--properly modified, of course--no extended safties, no extended slide releases--STI match trigger @ 4lbs., low-profile non-adjustable tritium (green front, amber rear) sights, beaver tail, and top-quality internal parts. I like a nice set of wood grips, too!

In reality, Scott is right. But he told only part of the story. You've got to be able to hit the target, but tactics are CRITICAL. If you can make the hit and execute the tactics quickly and efficiently, you'll win the fight. I've also learned that agressiveness is extrememly important.

And I thought the US gov't sucked. Canada must be an AWFUL place to live for shooting enthusiasts.

Russ; What kind of accuracy do the Chandlers claim for their sniper rifle? Texas Brigade Armory claims 1/4 MOA at 100 yards after their M40 properly broken in. They use a Hart barrel.
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 13:01:00 (EDT)

To Jay: I haven't read the article yet, I was just browsing the magazine while I was at work, trying to stay interested enough in something to stay conscious (I work third shift, for those of you who don't already know). It looks like a good article. The crux of the article was that the Chandler Sniper Rifle is a "1,000 yard rifle" and it was along those lines that the author was speaking. You might want to pick up a copy of the magazine, Jay, and give it a read yourself. Personally, I was impressed by the statement for two reasons: 1) The magazine the two statements I quoted is Soldier of Fortune, and 2) that the person making those statements is Peter Kokalis, a writer of some notoriety. Rather bold statements from someone of vast experience -- and which is what got my attention.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 14:17:26 (EDT)

Has anyone tried that Cryogenic treatment for rifle barrels? It's relatively inexpensive so I think I'm gonna do it. It won't be much of a loss if the accuracy doesn't improve.
What I wanna know is if anyone has had a bad experience with the treatment. i.e. Lost accuracy as opposed to gained accuracy.
The gun shoots (at 100 yards) 1/2" groups now(actually 1/2" - 3" depending on what kind of day I'm having)can I excpect this treatment to drop that number any?

To the editors:
Word wrap in the comments box was a huge improvement, so was the emporium deal. This site is great.
John Boy <jpg3860@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Tallahassee, Fl USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 15:20:33 (EDT)

John Boy... may I pick on your situation to illustrate a point?I might suggest that what you have is a 3" rifle. Although you may be having a bad day I doubt seriously if you are causing the 3" groups. Most shooters I have seen tend to blame their own shooting when in fact they are much better than the gun as a rule. You might reread my post about the computer fired groups. I would suggest your gun is an example. Now if someone else can shoot 1/2" groups all day long with your gun then maybe...
The old geezer is full of it! But otherwise...Thanks
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 15:50:52 (EDT)

To Russel.

Ross Seyfried's ultra long range rifle cal: 30/416 Rigby imp.

The rifle has a prototype Ultra Light Arms 40 single shot action, 34" Douglas stainless .30cal BR barrel with 1-10" twist, straight (no taper) 1.4" thick. Kevlar light BR-type stock painted as the US flag. The rifle was topped by a Leupold M4-16X.

Ross made cases using Norma 416 Rigby brass necked down in 4 steps and fireformed to a 40 deg. shoulder.

Ross fired 200gr and 220gr Sierra MK's with at the time, 1991, alvailable and "unalvailable" .50BMG powders.

Some data:

200gr Sierra MK, 116gr H5010/MV=3550fps, 127gr WC872/MV=3650fps.

220gr Sierra MK, 124gr WC872/MV=3470fps.

BTW I'm now a ex-sniper. I got my discharge today from the National Guard after 18 years service. Goodbye H&K G3.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 17:21:27 (EDT)

Bill:
in defense of my rifle(Rem. 700 Sendero), the occasional large group is definitely from me flinching, or just not comcentrating.(I know when I screw up the shot before I even look through the scope) I agree with what you said about the largest group being the one that counts and that's why I added that little comment.

Does anyone else here have days when they couldn't shoot a decent group if there life depended on it or is it just me?
John Boy <jpg3860@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Tallahassee, Fl. USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 17:21:44 (EDT)

Well there are no absolutes by the way! The most common cause might be not bagging the rear end of the rifle enough or others numerous. If you are knowing it is a blown shot it must be that your getting close to having everything right. A sendero is certainly a good weapon and likely to shoot good. I might say here for some of the newer shooters
that sandbagging the rear of the bench gun is as if not more important than the front especially off a bipod. Your own body should also be down on the table and as supported as possible. I don't mean to coach you cause you may shoot much better than me! But this is a good place to leave the information. Bipods did someone mention that? I recently had a rifle that had not yet been floated in 30-06. It had a Mcmillian stock (hunting variety) It shot less than 1.5 at a 100 like it came to me. With the Harris Bipod it shot at 5" above mark as opposed to sandbags at zero. Free floated it and it came down to zero. I was surprised there was such a difference. Slow day here or didn't anyone guess sorry for taking so much space today.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 17:58:31 (EDT)

Someone just remarked how tough it must be to shoot in Canada; it is. I teach the Federal Firearms Safety Course which includes the provincial Hunter Education course. We charge $35.00, and our program has put 60,000 new shooters into the field and ranges in the past half-dozen years.
One advantage in Canada, we have a cadet program for youths 13 to 19 which has .22 and air rifle competitions and the Army cadets have target rifle teams. So, we do have a formal shooting introduction program unlike the US. Too bad shooters make the sport so expensive once the free team supplies are cut-off.

Any Canadian readers are strongly advised to renew their FACs before I say again before 1 Oct 98. The rules change then and will be much more hassle (if that is possible).

TorF from Norway: good luck "on the outside". Eighteen years reserve service is no small accomplishment. Time to stay in bed late on weekends, grow your hair long and say all those rude things about your government you have kept inside!

You've mentioned an uncle's WWII service. In 1940 an old Finn I know took his Moisin Nagant from behind the kitchen door, shot two Russians in his backyard and then reported for military service. Leo doesn't say much about his time either.

You are ignoring the most famous one-shot-kill in all of Norwegian history. In 1940 when the German invasion fleet sailed into Oslo harbour, the shore artillery battery fired one shot that hit the battleship's magazine taking about 1000 sailors to the bottom. No general, no staff, no intimidation ship - a few weeks of "peace" before the paratroopers attacked.

You also mentioned tens of thousands of 300m UIT shooters in Scandinavia. Are there any long ranges in Norway to shoot Bisley style 1000yd target matches? There is a circuit of target matches in the English-speaking countries mostly, with a few German and French teams. Most of your Sauers have short barrels, don't they? What about sight adjustments, could you get 45 minutes of elevation? The Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, which has a webpage, would be glad to host any visiting Scandinavian teams.

Any target shooters in Western Canada in the group?

I have an article from the Canadian infantry magazine regarding the Canadian Elcan C79 sight, if anyone is interested. Contact my address directly.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 00:21:32 (EDT)

To John Boy: The Emporium was my idea, so I'll say "thank you." I was also sick of the lack of wordwrapping, and asked Marius, a valuable member of the Sniper Country staff, to change it -- which he did, so you owe him your praise for doing such fine work. He was also the action officer for building the Emporium at my request. My idea for the Emporium was simply to provide a place where we could swap, buy, and sell our "special interest" wares. You'll have to admit, those of us with an interest in sniping and long-range precision shooting have some unusual needs where gear is concerned. "Big name advertisers" are also welcome to place posts on the Emporium if they wish, but they will be subject to the rules just like everyone else.

I should take a moment here, perhaps, to tell everyone who does what, here at Sniper Country. We all cross over into several other areas of interest, but primarily the breakout is something like this:

1. As Editor-in-Chief and Tactics Editor, I have the final say on what is posted to this website in the way of articles and other original material. I also try to arrange for various reviews of training facilities and products, and then try to put things together so that either myself or a member of the staff can do the article.
2. Mr. Bain, our Legal Editor, is a fireball of energy when it comes to getting hard-to-get information about cutting-edge weapons, training, ammunition, optics, and any manner of development programs -- both inside government circles and in private industry, as well as covering the world "scene" in these areas as well.
3. Mr. Powers, whether he likes it or not, has basically become our special-purpose optics reviewer, besides of course being our Weapons Editor. Scott has done a pretty fair amount of competing and has a lot of trigger time to his credit.
4. Mr. Blosser, besides having an extensive background in medicine, is also a meticulous Internet researcher. When any of us have a need for certain information that we don't have the time, or occasionally the inclination, to find ourselves, Garry is usually given the nod. More often than not, he achieves positive results in less than 24 hours. He also checks our many, MANY links on this site, and makes sure that they all work as intended -- or notifies one of us in the event that one or more links isn't working. (You see, we really DO try to keep this ENTIRE site "active" and current.)
5. Mr. Ferreira, "our man in South Africa," is responsible for the Compendium of Terminology as well as a lot of other behind the scenes taskings as well. He brings a wealth of technical expertise to Sniper Country, without which we would be in pretty sad shape. Marius was the driving force in getting us moved from our location on the Prostar domain to the one we now have, under our own name. Without Marius, a lot of things we all take for granted here on this website wouldn't exist at all, let alone work as well as they do.
6. Mr. Williams, our Webmaster, himself a technical wizard, did all the work in moving the site from Dave Reed's old operation to the Prostar site, and then again established our current domain. Both times, Jay incurred out-of-pocket expenses for which we try to keep him reimbursed. (A "nice" feature of Sniper Country is that we are not a commercial site, full of ads and "junk." We run this site out of our own pockets, because we are devoted to making -- and keeping -- this a special place. So if any of you tend to think, on occasion, that some members of the Sniper Country Council are a bit "protective" of what we have here, it's because, literally, we own it.) Jay also has some ideas that could help this site earn a little money to defray its operating costs (the Amazon book sales, for one).

Each of us has a LOT more that we do to keep this site running but, in a nutshell, these are just a few of the contributions we bring to Sniper Country. I don't think it's bragging, at all, to say that we bring a wealth of diversified talent and expertise to this website, and hopefully it shows. You folks seem to appreciate what we do, and your simple "thank you" comments mean more to us than you could ever imagine.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 02:42:49 (EDT)

To Terry.

Norway has 3 large (for a country with 4.5mill people) shootingassosiations. The smallest is the Norwegian Shooting Union , 60000 members, who handles all the UIT events.

Then comes the Norwegian Hunting and Fishing Union. They got about the same 65000 members. They do a lot of huntingrelated targetshooting with scoped rifles. The Norwegian Champ. Running Target/Moose usually have 5-700 shooters. They also have something called Hunting Fieldtarget. Thats sniping on gametargets.

Over 200000 gets a huntinglisence each year.

The largest by far is the DFS (DCM). It's got 200000 members and 850 shootingranges. Formal 300m targetshooting has different programs than UIT. The 600m ranges are unfortunatly not in use anymore. They shoot a lot of fieldtarget, hipower biathlon, etc. To get an idea about the activity go to www.dfs.no. It's in norwegian ofcourse but heres a quick starter: Terminliste= shootingevents, Bane=300m, felt=fieldtarget, skifelt=hipower biathlon on fieldtargets. "Dato" has the national overview. DFS gets goverment funding and discounts guns and ammo for its members.

In addition we have 80000 National Guard members who have their weapons and ammo at home. (H&K G3, H&K MP5, Glock 17 and sniperrifles). Some special units also have heavier weapons at home. Any National Guard or regular army soldier can shoot at DFS events in a class for the G3.

You can't add these numbers together because there are a lot of "double" members.

After the 1940 unpleasentness we have something called "The order on the wall". It simply states "If something happens, start shooting! Don't stop if you are not 100% sure it is your goverment that orders a seasefire. If you don't fight you will be prosecuted!" This hangs on a wall in every military building.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 04:39:40 (EDT)

To Torsten:

After the 1992 unpleasantness we have something called "the pot-smoking, draft-dodging, womanizing, gun-grabbing bastard in the White House." He simply states "If something happens, lay down your guns! Don't use a gun for self-defense or your government will seize it. If you fight you will be prosecuted." He hangs over our heads like a dark cloud.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 05:52:20 (EDT)

Jay - on Handguns: Yes, the Para ordenance series of .45s are interesting. If the world was limited to the 1911 style, I'd have to agree that Para has the right idea. But for quite a few shooters the 1911 design presents several problems. First, to employ is properly takes some effort. I have come to think of it as a professionals gun. All that means is that one must train with it to become proficient, where as Jo-Q-Public can pick up other types and do well form day one. That is not to demean the 1911 design - I simply think for the average person getting into defensive carry, a good double action/single, decocker will serve their limited training more effectively.

My other dislike, if you can call it that, for the 1911, is the fact that you have to do a good bit of aftermaket work on them to bring them up to snuff. And GOD forbid if you happen to be left handed. Todays modern designs are far more user friendly in stock out of box condition. Nor does the 1911 doesn't seem to be the gun for those on a limited budget. Except for the new kimber version, you could easily spend the price of the initial purchase on modifying the 1911 to bring it up to snuff. Can of worms here we come!!!

By practice, I actually meant training and range time. Expecting to stop a hold up in a mall parking lot with out any formal trainging simply puts one on the same level as the perpetrator. A dummy with gun. I recently got into IDPA shooting and took a tactical handgun course. The improvement in my shooting skill can not be belived until seen. I would not have thought anyone could place 6 shots center mass into a 7 yard target in under two seconds. With training it has become common place. The point kiddies? Get the training. You can only benefit!

.45 as all time great? Compared to what? This is a big claim. Modern hollow point design has closed the gap between the .45, 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W. They all work, and work well as long as you can handle the firearm in question. A .45 cal gun in a carry friendly weight is never as controllable as its smaller cousins. Something to think about when researching what gun to carry. Sorry for the length or all this. I must have had my wheaties this morning!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 14:00:16 (EDT)

Gentlemen, I'm not sure this is the forum but I have been
looking for a titanium firing pin for a metric Fal. Does
anyone have a source where I might have one machined? I am
not concerned that it might be milled from one I would supply as a pattern(back engineered). The machine shops I've
contacted don't have any 1/2"X10' bars of Ti rod just laying
around. And the prices I've been quoted are well in excess
of $250.00. I think I might be being "blown off". I've queried at the machine gun sites,Volmers, Bowers, Fun Supply, Etc. And I've queried the Fal sites. No one has a clue. (At least the MG crowd). How about you precision shooters, anyone have any ideas? BTW, I loved the saddam.wav
file. Thank you. Don Williams
Don Williams <williams@fascination.com>
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 14:19:31 (EDT)

I wasn't going to post this as it is off topic, and I figure an off-topic first post is bad form. But here goes...

There has been some discussion of the Norwegian Resistance on this list. If any of you ever find yourselves in Oslo, you simply MUST go visit the resistance museum. It is full of the stories that Torf's uncle was uncomfortable discussing. I was there two summers ago and was inspired by the, outside Norway, largely untold story. Great accounts of Norwegian heroism and Nazi atrocities.

Great site, keep up the good work!

Now, closer to on-topic:

Does anyone know of a removeable front site for a Colt Sporter? I've seen one on a non-Colt AR-15 that was similar in design to the removable handle on my flat-top. Any ideas?

Thanks

JH
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 16:37:40 (EDT)

Russell my man you have such a delicate way of saying what I mean. Such an informative exchange between America and Norway! Only on the information highway. What a classic! I love this page!!!!!
to J.H. I hope the Heroes of Norway's resistance will always be on topic here! And everywhere else for that matter.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 16:57:22 (EDT)

Canadian soldier in Bosnia researching on sniper courses and
information about becoming a sniper.
Cpl Andrew BAird <baird@mailcity.com>
Zgon, Bosnia - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 17:31:33 (EDT)

Does anybody have any real-world experience with the titanium firing pin made by Quality Machining for the Stoner SR25? They claim a 62% reduction in group size just by changing the firing pin alone. It sounds like BS, and a couple of others I showed it to agreed, but it sure is tempting if there's even a small chance it would work. The URL is: http://www.gungames.com/qmi/sr_25.html
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 20:15:10 (EDT)

JH, Armalite makes the front gas block with the weaver rail and removeable sight post. GG&G makes a folding front site that is pretty nice, folds foreward down against the barrel.
Grashopper, I tried one of those Ti pins in an AR 15, no other changes, just the pin, and the groups actually grew... I don't see you getting anywhere near 62% reduction in group size without also lightening the hammer and getting a higher tension hammer spring.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 20:41:35 (EDT)

Grasshopper:
Regarding the titanium firing pin, the main way that it is supposed to improve accuracy is by striking the primer quicker than a normal pin would. This is of course beneficial to the shooter because there is less time for you to move the gun off target. In my opinion however it will not reduce groups by 63% except maybe in extreme situations. I couldn't believe that it would do anything more than 15% reduction at best. If you are building a serious target rifle than it might be worth it but there are a lot of things that I would have done first.

I am not nearly as knowlegable in this field as most of the people who read this page are, I am just relating some of the things I've read about the pins and a little bit of my own inductions about the pins. I'm sure there are many who would disagree with me.

############################
You guys wanna hear a story that will give you a good laugh at my expense? Today I went to the range to try a new 24" telescopic Harris bipod I got for $35, brand new.(Good deal huh?, the guy didn't know what he had.) Any way I was leaning against a post and I fired about 15 rounds, and did very well. I decided to see what I could do without leaning against a post. I concentrated hard on the target(empty soda can) and pulled the trigger. The rifle shot back and hit my forehead. It didn't hurt all that much, probably because I was worried about my zero being thrown off. I chambered the next round and was sighting down the scope when I noticed something dribble down my nose. I knew it was to cool to be sweat so I touched my nose and saw it was, you guessed it, blood. I now have a cresent shaped cut on the bridge between my nose and right eye. Luckily there was noone around to see this. Now I just gotta think of a good lie to tell my shooting buddies when they ask about the bandaid on my head.

Pretty stupid huh? Oh and if you're wondering... I missed the soda can. :(
John Boy <jpg3860@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Tallahassee, Fl. USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 21:39:58 (EDT)

To Don Williams: I'm glad you liked the WAV file. As soon as I heard it I knew I had to make it available to our visitors!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, April 18, 1998 at 01:35:33 (EDT)

To Russell

Thanks for the info last summer on the 110 fp. I purchased one in August and have been having a great time with it. I have
one small problem in that I can't seem to get the trigger pull weight below 5 - 5.5 pounds. I followed the instructions in
the article posted here, but even with the trigger spring screw backed off all the way the trigger pull is still 5+ pounds.
Any advice would be appreciated. Also I have some moly coated Hornady 168 gr match bullets on order. Does anyone have a good
load they would suggest?
J. Wells <jtwells@juno.com>
sc USA - Saturday, April 18, 1998 at 23:46:49 (EDT)

What can someone tell me about the sauer 202tr or 200str? How do they shoot? Where can you get one? etc.
Hannibal <scipio71@earthlink.net>
MN USA - Sunday, April 19, 1998 at 01:40:19 (EDT)

To J. Wells: I'm glad you're happy with your selection and that I was able to help you.

Scott Powers will tell you, by way of testimony, how light I've gotten my Savage triggers -- just by following those exact instructions that I posted here for other Savage owners to take advantage of. No less than Ron Coburn, CEO of Savage Arms, was impressed with how light yet reliable (i.e., the safety still works) I have made my triggers. So, consider rereading the Savage trigger instructions and tackling it again.

My project rifle, which is built on a Savage single-shot action, is going to get the "supreme" trigger job (performed by me). Some time ago, I picked up a set of small files, and I'm going to use one to file a perpendicular notch in the set screw that the long wire (spring) "locks" into. This will allow me to get the trigger even lighter.

Also, and this is not my recommendation (it's just something for you to reflect on), you can add a trigger shoe. Installed over your trigger, a trigger shoe will give you a wider surface with a better "feel" when you pull the trigger. (I could go into an oration on physics, but I won't.) Essentially, you're spreading the force that you're exerting to pull the trigger over a larger surface, making it a bit easier to pull the trigger. I cannot recommend adding a trigger shoe (I have a source if you want one but can't find one), rather, it's an individual choice. The "con" of using a trigger shoe, according to "the experts," is that they can come off at the wrong time, can be prone to snagging (especially if the sides extend beyond the width of the trigger guard), and in general can make for an unsafe condition.

Ron Coburn told me that Savage is going to wider triggers on its magnum rifles. With my large hands and long fingers, the trigger shoe on my Savage 110FP Tactical (just added this last year) gives me a better "feel." I'd already gotten the trigger pretty light (most people can't believe how light the trigger is -- and that the safety still works), but I wanted a little extra advantage. For me, adding a trigger shoe was a good choice; I wish I'd have installed one a long time ago.

As another option, read the Sniper Country review on Action Magic II (I think that's the correct name of the product). Used in conjunction with a good trigger job, this stuff can really lighten a trigger pull. It's available from Brownells.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 19, 1998 at 02:01:39 (EDT)

To Hannibal.

Sauer 200STR accuracy.

The norwegian gunmagazine "Vapenjournalen" do a lot of tests. In 1994 they tested .308 matchbullets in a .308win Sauer. The Sauer had 4 barrels and each barrel had 4 5-shot groups put trough it. The load used for all bulletweights was 43gr VV N140, Rem 9.5 primer, Lapua cases, loaded on a Dillon 550 with Bonanza necksizer and seatingdie. The rifle was topped with a B&L 6-24 scope.

Groups were shot at 200m/220yds. This is average for 16 5-shot groups: (1" = 25.4mm)

Sierra MK 150gr: 39.3mm
Sierra PM 155gr: 44.8mm
Sierra MK 168gr: 27.5mm
Lapua LB 150gr: 44.5mm
Lapua LB 170gr: 38.3mm
Lapua SC 168gr: 30.8mm
Lapua SC 186gr: 29.8mm
HornadyIM 168gr: 33.5mm
HornadyIM 190gr: 48.5mm
Nosler HP 168gr: 32.8mm
Speer GM 168gr: 61.3mm
Speer GM 190gr: 38.3mm

One of the barrels shot fantastic with Sierra 168gr, 13mm average for 4 5-shot groups. Sierra MK 180gr was tested only in one barrel with 21mm average for 4 5-shot groups.

The same rifle has also been tested in 6.5X55.

Norma Diamondline factoryammo, 130gr molycoated VLD, MV=2600fps: 23mm in 7 5-shot goups.

Handloads:

Lapua 107gr HPBT(GB464), 41gr VV N140, MV=880ms. Average for 5 5-shot groups: 20mm.

Lapua 140gr HPBT(GB458), 45gr NC96, MV=2600fps, Average for 4 5-shot groups: 23mm.

Sierrabullets has similar performance.

All groups are shot at 200m/220yds. 1" = 25.4mm

Remember this is not specially tuned BR ammo. This ammo is shot by the thousands.

The molycoated bullets in 6.5mm at 2600fps has increased useable barrellife to 8000 rounds. Barrellife for .308 are 8-12000 rounds.

I guess you can order a Sauer 200 STR at your local SIG-Sauer handgundealer. The only thing you need to do extra is a glassbeddingjob by a competent gunsmith.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, April 19, 1998 at 13:39:49 (EDT)

As for the Chandler Rifles, i can verify the weapons are outstanding to say the least. I Know Norm Chandler real well. While down in Camp Lejeune he lived 2 blocks away. I would go buy the house and see the quality of work being done on these rifles. It was of higest quality. I have shoot numerous Chandler rifles. I have seem them in action On our Hathcock Sniper Range many times. Also i was there when we did the original test of the White Feather ammunition. It was done on Dec, 7, 95. It was a windy day i'd say about 12-15 MPH wind. Half value from 11 to 5 o'clock. The group was fired with Chandler rifle #15. We shot 175gr sierra Whitefeather. The 5 shot group was 3 3/8 of an inch at 600 Yards. They also shot a 5 shot group at 1000 yards, that was 5 1/2 inches. I had Left before the 1000 yard group was fired so i can not say i witnessed it, however, i was told by fellow Scout Snipers that's what the group was. If you had the money i would recommend the Chandler rifle. I was holding out to buy one myself. But couldn't wait any longer. It has a heavty price of $3800 with MK IV. But you get everything, torque wrech, cleaning gear, Pelican case. It is worth it. Also there is over a 1 year waiting period. And Military, and Law Enforcement have priority.
Sgt. Gimmellie <ussnipermc@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, April 19, 1998 at 15:36:11 (EDT)

Triggers...Lots being said about triggers. Be it a Savage/Remington/Ruger/Winchester or whatever. There is always the consideration of the safety as previously mentioned but be absolutely sure that you put the safety on
then pull the trigger and on winchester or other 3 position safetys be sure and try all positions. Also very important pull the trigger then take the safety off. Some guns will fire at this point when the trigger pull is reduced too much. Now! the final test. Empty the gun point the muzzle down prefered with muzzle on something like a block of wood.
Safety off! Take the bolt handle and slam it directly down on the chamber close the bolt and reopen it. If the firing pin falls you have gone too far with the sear and spring adjustments. A good adjustment on a safe gun will not drop the firing pin at these tests. The poundage on most rifles
can be adjusted around 3 or 4 lbs but if it is less be sure
you check the above cause it might shoot your foot off or go off if dropped unexpectedly. Most 110s around 4 lbs is about it. Without spring modification. Be sure and lock tight those screws on a Savage or Remington. The Ruger MK II is very tricky!! Be careful with this one. The old 77 is a good
trigger system. The others are mostly manageable.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, April 19, 1998 at 20:07:35 (EDT)

An open letter from me to all who desire a career in law enforcement. Some advice for all of you: (1) Stay hungry. Be persistent. I first formulated the desire to become a police officer at age 8, and first acted on it at age 18. I finally managed to pin on the badge at age 38. (2) Work from within. How? Check out your Department's Reserve Officer program. With this program, you report in for duty for a period of time specified by your Department. (usually 20 hours a month.) The bad news is that usually, you have to purchase the majority, if not all, of your equipment, to include body armor, uniforms, and possibly service weapon. The good news is that all Departments with Reserve Officers usually hire from within. Sometimes, you even get paid for your time, in some Departments--most of the time, though, you are working in a non-pay status. (3) If you decide to become a Reserve Officer, and you do succeed, put in as much time as possible. I worked at least 12-24 hours per week for my first six months, while holding down another full time job. Stack up those hours!
Also, be willing to work on call, whenever needed. Bottom line--get on any way you can. Get as much training as possible. Volunteer as much as needed. Show loyalty for your Department, and your chain of command, and---most importantly--perform your duties to the absolute utmost of your power and ability. That's the way to do it! Good luck!
Eagle C. Tovar Jr. <JJAWA3@aol.com>
Enumclaw, WA USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 00:47:25 (EDT)

Russell, I look forward to see you here in Germany. I can arrange visits with H&K,SIG, and Schmidt & Bender.
Others possible.
I am invited to the German Army Infantry School to visit their new Sniper class with the G-22 (AI in .300 Win Mag.)
Also you could attend any of our Reserve Shoots in that time as a guest.
Let me know what you want to do.
Horrido, Torsten
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 04:50:03 (EDT)

I am looking for a tactical stock for a Ruger model 77 .308. I have checked a few manufacturers but have not found one yet. Any ideas?
Randy Stoddard <1sht1kil@mailexcite.com>
Ponca City, ok USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 06:41:19 (EDT)

TRACKING TIP:

Since tracking is an important skill for the sniper, I will pass
along a helpful trick I learned from a US Border Patrol Agent (the USBS
has an EXCELLENT tracking school).

Take a stick with two rubber bands on the end. Measure the length of
your marks footprints (i.e. stride)and mark using the end of your tracking
stick and one rubber band.

Now measure the length of the marks footprint and mark it on your stick using
the first rubber band already attached at the toe, and the second rubber band
closer to your body at the heel.

When your tracking stick is finished, you simply use the two rubber bands to measure
the length of the print, helping to assure it is your marks, and as you measure the
print, the remainder of the stick, which will point in the general direction of travel,
since its lined up with the print, and measured out your marks average stride, reducing
your time to locate the next set of prints.

The stick saves time and effort with a little practice.

Although no net artist, I have tried to illustrate it below.
The capital "I's" represent your stick. The "R's" are the rubber bands

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
R(print)R(------------------stride---------------)

JEFF

JEFF <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA(leads the way) - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 12:42:11 (EDT)

To Eagle, thanks for the advice. I am going to hang in there. Gimmellie--that is impressive accuracy. Is there a Norm Chandler link somewhere? That is also the 1st White Feather test I have seen. Thanks for the info. To Torsten---once again, I wrote down your info. Thanks a lot. In my eternal quest for the mythical rifle of the gods, I have submitted a Sauer, an AT1-M24, and the Chandler Rifle. ---X-Ring, how about that BlackStar barrel? I'm biting my fingernails over here. ------I kind of was afraid that this site was run out of pocket by several people. I just want the parties involved to know how much this site is appreciated. I first ran across Sniper Country when I was doing some internet research for a paper on ballistics in finishing up my degree. I was simply amazed! The professionalism is outstanding! I am soooooooo glad that this is not some whitetrash redneck militia site, and I know that any WaterGate minded-journalists that come to this site looking for the dark side of shooting will not find it here and will find our discussions profoundly boring. This is THE site for sniping and shooting on the net. I know, because I have checked! As far as reading goes, bring on the war stories and the funny stories about shooting. I have a few of my own. I am a WW2 buff, and I have a familiarity with the Eastern Front ops and the resistance towards the Soviets. by the way, General Patton is the greatest general in history. Good hunting...
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 16:57:23 (EDT)

Nathan: Thanks for the kind words. We work very hard on the site and we do not allow extremist views or propaganda on the page. Moreover, we WILL inform the appropriate authorities if we do see such material on the site.

That said, we are very strongly pro-Constitution, pro-individual rights, pro-liberty, and pro-firearm. Some within the L.E. community don't feel as we do on these issues, especially with regard to private ownership of firearms. That is terribly unfortunate.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 18:48:28 (EDT)

An addendum: Regarding journalists visiting the site, unfortunately, many within the media and general public seem to believe that the First Amendment provides no protection for those espousing the Second Amendment. Merely discussing in public cyberspace the profession of sniping, the deliberate taking of life with a scoped rifle, would be overly offensive to some, notwithstanding that we advocate such use of force only when lawful (e.g., under the Constitution, the Law of War) on this page. To these critics I respond that all violence is not the same: sometimes use of force is necessary, when it is to save the lives of others. To think otherwise is to view violence through a prism of moral equivalence and relativism. The Constitution guarantees these people the right to their views; it guarantees their right to stupidity.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 19:26:15 (EDT)

Gentlemen: I am curious to hear how the 155gr Palma and 168gr HPBTM bullets perform as deer hunting loads. I have several .30 cal rifles, and have lots of 155gr bullets for long range target shooting. Might even lug my precision rifle out ...

My #1 hunting rifle is a .300 Win Mag bolt for deer here in Saskatchewan. I normally load with Partition or Ballistic tips. I am a meat hunter and have yet to lose a deer hit in the rib cage. Average body weight 100lbs. But I lost an antelope when a 150 (155?) gr Barnes X punched right through. I also carry a 30-06 Remington gas-auto for elk in the heavy forest.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Sask Canada - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 21:05:52 (EDT)

To Russell

Thanks for the response regarding the 110fp trigger. I went over the instructions carefully again but still ended up at about 5 lbs pull. I went so far as to remove the trigger spring completely (just as a test) and still measured right at 4 lbs. It seems that just the pressure of the sear is accounting for the relatively heavy pull. I'm shooting 3/8" to 3/4" 3 shot groups at 100 yards, so I think for the time being I'll leave well enough alone. Any word on the timney trigger for the 110? Also if anyone has had any experience with the 168 gr moly coated match bullets by Hornady I'd be interested in hearing. Thanks again.

J Wells <jtwells@juno.com>
USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 23:04:45 (EDT)

I have a confession to make I am under 18(15 to be exact)and have been infiltrating your website for some time now but I am on the California state junior service rifle team and I think I can be trusted not to go Jonseburogh on any of my playmates.Anyway I would like to say that I think this is one of greatest sites for presision shooting info this "country" being inhabited by many wise sages.Also I agree with Nathan it would be nice to here some good old war stories. Oh well maybe when I "grow up" I can put some of my skills to use in defense of our great country the USA.

P.S. any hints or advice to help my shooting would be greatly appriceated
Thanx

c/CMSgt. Keith Kacmar AFJROTC <Kacmar@thevine.net>
Saugus, CA USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 00:30:42 (EDT)

East german ssg-82 police sniper rifle,in caliber 5.45x39 is now being imported. it was reported to be made by ernst thalman firearms of suhl. it is very accurate to 400 meters. does anyone have any further information on this rifle,and where in the world do you find brass cases and reloading information.? I have found a supply of .221 60 gr bullets that are very accurate. MOA at 200 yards. Thanks.
bill <hondo@gorge.net>
white salmon, wa USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 06:57:03 (EDT)

Bill: I believe either Precision Shooting Magazine or Tactical Shooter ran a complete review of the SSG89 a few months back. You can follow our link to their webpage for further information.

Terry: The use of match grade projectiles on deer is not recommended. Yes, they will work, but you are better served by a good expanding projectile. The Match rounds like the 155 and 168 will not expand reliably, if at all, and have been known to simply vaporize when contacting solid bone like a deer's neck vertebrae. In the case I am thinking of the deer dropped in its tracks but had the shooter missed the bone and nerve trunk, the bullet might simply have passed through the neck muscle resulting in little damage, in terms of lethality. Worst case is a gut shot deer. The deer will run many miles before succoming to its injuries. Stick with properly designed hunting loads, slightly heavy for caliber. The reduction in accuracy of the hunting load will mean little in terms of on-target performance. You want reliable expansion and trauma. The match load will either punch through with little deformation, or come apart. Neither of these actions are desirable for instantly dropping an animal. They tend to exhibit a greater will to drive-on than most humans. Shoot a deer with a .22 rim fire and he'll run you to the next county. Shoot a human with the same, and depending on his mind set, he may just drop in his tracks, crying for mama.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 11:00:12 (EDT)

Terry: I agree the match loads are not for deer. Hornady makes a 150 gr spire that is good for a cheap bullet and not bad for accuracy. If you want premium performance and accuracy the speer grand slam is excellent. Nosler partion bullets are excellent performance and accuracy is as good as the Hornady. Both Speer and Nosler cost about twice as much as the Hornady or Speer 150 for that matter. Most Sierra bullets have thinner jackets than I like to use for deer.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 11:55:46 (EDT)

About accurate hunting bullets; I had good luck in a very accurate 30-06 I once owned using Hornady 165gr BTSP ammunition (factory loaded.) I was able to regularly shoot .25" (center to center) 100m three shot groups with it. The rifle had a medium weight barrel and the group would open to .75" if I fired five shots. It performed excellently on deer, but for larger game I hand-loaded a 180gr Barnes X-Bullet. I was working up a load for the 165gr Hornady when I sold it. (The guy's widow I got the rifle from wanted it back to give to her son.)

Steve <sgriff@apci.net>
Belleville, IL USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 17:55:09 (EDT)

Terry: As other have aready stated, 168 grain match grade HPBT such as the Sierra Match Kings are not a good selection for hunting. I use a Ruger M77MKII VT in .308 and use 165 grain ballistic tips from Four Corners Bullet Company for hunting deer and antelope. These rounds provide nearly identical accuracy in my gun as Black Hills 168 grain molly coated match ammo.
Mike O'Brien <atrus@coffey.com>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 00:25:18 (EDT)

I saw some questions concerning muzzle brakes and accuracy. I'm certainly no expert, but I recently had a varmint style brake installed on my Ruger M77MKII VT in .308. Mine does not appear to have any affect on accuracy. The varmint style brake allows the weapon to be employed from the prone without creating a dust cloud. For those wondering why anyone would bother to brake a heavy .308, I do a lot of prairie dog shooting and I want to see the little boogers explode on impact. The prairie dogs aren't out yet, but I can see bullet impact on paper and metal.
Mike O'Brien <atrus@coffey.com>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 00:41:21 (EDT)

To Torsten: Anything that is viable to do with me being in Wiesbaden is fine with me. I wish I could just blow off my duty days and see all the things you could line up for me, but I know that will be impossible. I may be able to get away for a weekday, to see something like the H&K facility, and if I could visit the sniper training -- that would be wonderful!

To Randy: McMillan probably makes their A-2 Tactical available in a version that would accommodate your Ruger (if they can make one for my Savage 110FP Tactical, they can make one for your Model 77). Depending on the options you want, base prices will start around $230. I just received my A-2 Tactical back from them, after having a saddle-type cheek piece installed (I prefer it over the cut-out type). They did a nice job of installing it, and the cost was $90 including labor.

To Terry: Others have sufficiently addressed usage of Match Kings on deer, so I won't. However, I'd also add that while they occasionally work well with 1:10" twists, 155-grain Palma bullets usually prefer a slower twist (if memory serves, 1:13" -- Scott, who shoots highpower, might be able confirm this). Still, one box is probably worth trying in your rifle for target shooting. I should add, by the way, that Game Kings are quite accurate and shoot MOA out of my Savage 110FP Tactical with the load I use (AA 2520, right from the Sierra manual).

To Steve: Having flown "Space A" out of and into Scott AFB, I've been to Belleville on a few occasions. Have you got any special places to go for some of those big southern Illinois deer? (Hint, hint.)

To Mike: A fellow prairie dogger, eh? It doesn't look like I'll make it this year (I've got the "Carlos charity" and a black bear hunt in Canada next month, and I'm working on reviewing another shooting school for Sniper Country sometime this year), but perhaps we could go doggin' next year. Oh, I agree with you about using a muzzle brake for sensing shots on prairie dogs, which is why I put one on my .22-250 Ackley Improved (Savage 112BVSS). My new ArmaLite Action Master came with a muzzle brake already installed and, with the B&L Elite 4000 6-24x I have mounted on it, I should be able to see the results of every shot. I can't wait to take a few "family portraits" on my next prairie dog excursion!

To J. Wells: If you want to go offline about your trigger, drop me an E-mail. (My computer is in the shop, so I won't be getting back to you right away.)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 01:37:25 (EDT)

Glad to see you page has been updated. I am a USSF shooter stationed overseas and use this to keep in touch with the world. Take care.
Shooter <hti@bigfoot.com>
Okinawa Japan - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 10:11:04 (EDT)

To GrassHopper: Now that you have 500 rounds thru your SR you better get Knight's phone number handy. I have found that once you get around 600 rounds +/- 300 thru one several things will begin to happen. 1) the gun will begin to throw rounds slowly at first then with increasing frequency and severity 2) it will begin to experience problems with extraction which will eventually be diagnosed as a failed extractor. I have extensive experience with this weapon and to a gun (12 in all)these problems persist. I sincerely hope that you don't have these experiences but I am betting that you will. The manufacturer will only say that it is your problem. One final not on this "fine weapon system" It is a good concept but bad execution (with exceptions I am sure). Have fun.
Shooter <hti@bigfoot.com>
Okinawa Japan - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 10:27:37 (EDT)

CAN ANYONE give me the address and phone number of H-S Precision???
Michael Roberts <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Vernonia, Oregon USA - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 15:46:45 (EDT)

Thanks for the input on match bullets for hunting. I had pretty well made up my mind, but wanted to sample the collective wisdom for other's thoughts. I'll be trying Sierra Game Kings in the .300 and .308, and stick with Partitions in the 30-06.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Sask Canada - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 20:54:03 (EDT)

Great site!! I spent a lot of time around you special forces types while i was in the Air Force. I was assigned as Crewchief on the HC-130N&P verson with the 67th SOS under 39SOW. The best time of my life!!
Well to start with I have a Savage 110fp tactial in the 300 WIN. Mag. that i would not trade for the world. The weapon shoots great out to 500 yards i've not gone past that yet due to range limitations. I not measured the groups but i am able to cover them most of time with my hand. Which i feel is not all of that bad. At 100 yards it's is always under 1MOA if I am doing my job right.
Here's the question. When one pratices long range shooting what should i expect to be able to do at 500 yards? Is the group i mentioned above good or should i hide my head in shame some where. What are real goals for 200,300, to 1000 yard groups. I understand the are tons varables but is a hitting a pieplate at 800 yards good shooting or is that a Hathcock skilllevel that most folks with limited budgets and time wont be able to obtaine overnight.
My next rifle is going to be a PSS REM.700 .308 that has been accurized By Arnold Arms and topped with a Leopold Mark4 10power with mil dot rectial. Is that an acceptable choice for punching paper and groundhogs at a distance?
I have started shooting longrange because it's fun.I am also thinking about trying for the sharpshooter team at the facilty i work. (Max Security prison) The entry team gig is fun but it time to expand the horzions a bit. I understand the in the prison setting most shots are uner a 100 yards i just want the info for when i go and punch paper.
Please excuse the spelling and grammer errors.
Mac
LLoyd (Mac) McPherson JR. <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, IN USA - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 23:30:50 (EDT)

First I would like to thank everyone at SC for the wealth of knowledge that I have been able to gain from this site. After reading the review of the 700 PSS in 308, I purchased a Rem 700 PSS in 223 for a target rifle to develop my marksmanship. I'm very pleased with the .75" to 1" holes I'm punching with the Federal American Eagle 50gr hp which I can get for $4.25 a box. However, I was going to purchase some of Federal's Gold medal 69gr match ammo for $12 a box. I just wanted to see if I could shrink those groups with better ammo.
When He found out I was going to be shooting it out of a Rem 700, he told me that it was designed for the AR-15 with a 1 in 9" twist, and his gun wouldn't group better than 4" at 100 yds with the stuff.
I ran a tight fitting patch down the barrel from muzzle to chamber, and counted between 2.5 and 2.75 revolutions. I measred the length of the barrel from the end of the muzzle to the start of the chamber and came up with a length of 24". I did the math, and 2.666 revolutions in 24" is a 1 in 9" twist.
Knowing this would it be safe to assume my PSS would be able to adequately stablize the 69gr bullets in the Fed GM Match Ammo? Has anyone had good results with this rifle/ammo combination. Does anyone have any suggestions for other factory ammo to use in a 700 PSS in 223? I know I'll get the best results with handloads, but I don't have the equipment to do it yet.
Info on a good 223 load for whitetail deer and at what's the max effective range of the load.
Also, I'm thinking about buying one of Sringfield Armory's 4-14x40mm range finding scope for 5.56mm, does any one have any comment about the quality/usablity of this scope?

Sorry for the long post, but I had a lot of questions, and I've never been known to be anything be long-winded.
Thanks
Tim Baird <tbaird@telegroup.com>
Fairfield, IA USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 03:06:27 (EDT)

Mac: On long range. Keeping the group moa or less is a reasonable ideal, so your hand sized group at 500 is excellent. To answer your question in the simplest terms, if you are grouping 5" or less at 500 yards, you have nothing to complain about. If your rifle actually manages to hold moa to 1000 yards - a 10 inch group) in dead wind, you have a real winner rifle. Of course shooting in this non-existent dead calm wind is just about unheard of, so the real skill comes from learning to judge wind and compensate for it. That is the real skill behind long range shooting. But I’d say if you can consistently hit a pie plate at 800, in variable wind, you have achieved the necessary skill levels.

As far as a good scope for varmints. The fixed 10x is not ideal, but is acceptable to a point. The problem becomes one of not being able to SEE the target once you start reaching out there. P-dogs and hogs get to looking pretty small once you go beyond 300-400 yards with a fixed scope. A 6.5x24 is better suited for this activity. For long range tactical shooting, your set up sounds fine. Steel life size sillouettes are a lot easier to hit and see than p-dogs! Last thing, if you plan on become a prison sharp shooter, you are going to want a new scope. The 10x is to much power. You will want a good 3.5-10x variable so you can dial down and get your all important field of view back. If you ever happen to need to convince some malcontent he needs to stop what he is doing, trying to follow him at 10x from 50 yards, well, sucks!

Tim: An easier method to check twist. Mark your rod. Slide into bore. Measure the distance it took the mark to make one full rotation. No math involved. Just lay a ruler next to the rod as you slide it in.

If your rifle is 1:9 it will love the 69gr MK. You will be able to shoot 50 to 75 grain projectiles with reasonable accuracy with the 1:9. The slower twists, say 1:12 or 1:14 will work better with the smaller 40 to 55 grain bullets, but 1:9 is the best compromise I have found so far, giving you the broadest range of usable rounds. For varmints, you might try the 55 grain Sierra HPBT. It has a large very Hollow Point and PMC makes a load with it. Very accurate in my AR. For deer I can not recommend a load. I feel that the .223 is on the limit of usability for this application. I know guys use it at close range, but it all comes down to shot placement. It is critical with these small projectiles. No room for error. For the average guy, I’d say that .243 is the limit. If you must use the .223, look for the best bullet you can afford. Heaviest too.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 09:23:34 (EDT)

I recently acquired a "pre-owned" Remington 700PSS (non-detachable magazine) in .308 caliber. The reason I say "pre-owned" rather than "used" is because it is NIB, unfired. I got it for $500, which I consider almost a steal. After cleaning the bore to remove dust and what looked like oil film from the factory, I noticed rough areas along the lands. This disappointed me at first, thinking that the previous owner had allowed moisture to condense in the bore causing some rust. Upon further examination at the muzzle with a 10X jewelers' loupe, the roughness appeared to be the black parkerizing that the barrel is finished with. Does anyone know if this is what I am seeing? Does Remington not plug the bore when parkerizing their PSS barrels?

If the bore does have some remnants of parkerizing in it, what is the best way to get it out before breaking in the barrel?
Greg <tastee@ptd.net>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 12:37:20 (EDT)

Greg: If you are truly seeing parkerizing, you should be able to use a mild abrasive cleaning paste like JB Bore compound to remove it. Just clean per instructions. You may want to have the bore lapped anyway. It will help reduce fouling. The factory bore is seldom smooth and mirror like.
Scott
USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 14:26:32 (EDT)

Hello people,
First of all thanks for a great site, and second, my apologies for what is going to seem like a long post. I have a single question and comments on two companies. First the question, .has any one kept current with the TASCO offerings ? I can find only a single SS scope listed and it has a very large and obtrusive side wheel focus knob, and this is the kicker carries a Price tag of over a grand, I think I would be better served with one of them scopes with a gold ring. Ok now the comments, Tasco has a large professional looking web site ..only none of the links are functional yet, so you are left to order a catalog .
You go to the catalog order page and fill out a form giving your address and then fill out a demographics questionnaire only to receive an e-mail the next morning containing ONE line " to order a catalog please call 1- 88-xxx-xxxx" Disappointing to say the least. On a Much more positive note, I tried to contact Armament Technology and through an over sight and poor configuration of my mail server I provided them with a bogus e-mail address. To my surprise I was contacted personally by Mr. Andrew Webber by phone no less. This level of customer (and potential customer) service is to be highly commended. I was MOST impressed with the people of Armament Technology and would recommend that you give their web site a look.

Dan Urbach <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Fairbanks, ak USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 17:12:56 (EDT)

Dan Urbach:

As you know, we who operate this site do so out of our own pockets and do not allow ourselves or the site to be captured by manufacturers. We want to remain objective in our assessments. That said, I must tell you that Andy Webber is an outstanding, honorable man whose decency and integrety are matched only by the quality and attention to detail of his work.

I spent well over a year researching the right bolt gun to get and wanted one that remained as true as possible to the U.S. Army's M24 SWS. I looked at every major custom manufacturer's offerings and even considered buying one of the commercially available, Remington-produced M24s for sale 2 years ago (at substantially more than the cost of Andy's work). When I stumbled accross Andy's site, I knew I'd found the right place. I was right. The rifle I received is simply outstanding. You can read X-Ring's review of the rifle at our "In Review" section. (Yeah, I'm a hell of a guy; I let him shoot the M24 because he claims to be left-handed and so couldn't shoot my M21.)

Andy's one weakness is that his is a one-man operation, though he has significant assistance from his lovely wife. Don't expect to get in a rifle from him overnight. In fact, it may take upwards of 6 months to recieve one of his works of art. The acme of quality and precision isn't cheap and it isn't quick. It is, however, worth waiting for. Oh, and yes, I've become friends of the Webbers, have met them personally at the SHOT Show, converse with them by phone and e-mail from time to time, have assisted them when possible on government contracting in the U.S. (the Webbers are Canadians), and think the world of them.

In a market filled with increasingly more hucksters seeking to capitalize on the long-range boom, the Webbers stand in sharp contrast. If you are looking for serious accuracy and are willing to spend what it takes, Andy Webber will meet or exceed your expectations.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 18:19:18 (EDT)

Dan: Forget that huge tasco. see the reviews on the SS10x42M and SS10x42. The first has a normal side focus similar to the Leupold and the second has the parallax dial where you wold normally find a variable power ring. They are reasonably sized with 42mm objective and a good size ocular. Mil-dot equipped also. see the review. You ought to be able to get either of these from $390 to $500. you might also check out Leupold's new 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M3. It will retail about $680 with mil-dots, $560 with out them. either configuration is worth the price. This scope is like a Mk4 M3 with a variable power!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 21:50:50 (EDT)

Here is a little tip that some may find useful.
One thing that really bugs me about shooters that own nice rifles
is they most of them start taping cheat sheets to the side of their
stocks to remind them of their windage and elevation settings
for various ranges.
To me this is sacralige. A rifle should look llike a rifle
and not a refrigerator door! I think that this act also announces
to the whole world that the owner of that rifle is feeble minded and
cannot remember such important details.
Being to proud to admit that I am just as feeble minded as the
rest of you, I have struggled with this dilema for years. Now,
thanks to modern technology a solution has been found.
This last Christmas I recieved as a gift a Timex Ironman wristwatch
The neat thing about this watch is that it can storea bunch of
telephone numbers in its memory. That got me thinking, if it can
store phone numbers it can probably store other numbers as well.
After a little fiddling I programed the watch to show my elevation
and windage settings from 250 to 1000 yards in 50 yard increments.
Now, all I have to do is click to the Phone mode on the watch and
scroll to the range I want. An added bonus it also tells time and
works just as well at night as day with the indigo feature.
Those fortunate few, of you people who bother to read
this are welcome to use MY idea on two conditions.
First, If you use this watch in the above described manner
you must hum the jingle song, Reach out and touch someone.
Second, this information is to remain TOP SECRET!
If the government finds out about this they will probably
try to ban these deadly wristwatches. If that happens I will
do my best to find out who let the cat out of the bag, and I will
hunt you down. :)

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 22:58:55 (EDT)

I must have not made myeslf clear in my last post . I apreciate all the feedback I have been getting on the TASCO situation , but I dont think I was clear. The HUGE scope was labled ss10x24m in the current catalog. I have found but ONE place that even lists that part number and they wanted something on the order of 750 bucks for it . Am I being mislead ? or am I just not looking in the right places? If not I could use the name of a mail order house that carries these so far mythical priced beasts ( being that I am in Alaska I am used to having to wait for things and them not being locally available )
Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Fairbanks , Ak. USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 23:19:09 (EDT)

Reference: May, 1998, issue of Tactical Shooter, there's a nice story on the activities of the Mudville Militia, referenced by one of our guest writers in the article Sacramento Snipers. If you subscribe to Tactical Shooter due to anything you read here at Sniper Country, please (the sake of us who run this site) drop Dave Brennan a note and tell him where you heard about his magazine -- or nice words to that effect. Likewise, I'd hope Mr. Brennan would reciprocate with a mention of us, too, from time to time.

In the same issue, there's an article (page nine) about the Remington SR8 in .338 Lapua Magnum, within which there is a nice discussion of .338 bullets (of some interest to yours truly, who is building a .338/378 Weatherby Magnum). The .338 (bullet) has a lot going for it in a sniper role, when assembled into a suitable cartridge.

There's also a nice piece by Rod Ryan, president of Storm Mountain Training Center on what the proper dialogue between a sniper and an observer should be like.

And, "Captain S" has a nice article on range estimation that, at a glance, appears to be worth a read.

Several other items are of interest, too, but I won't list them all. You should be subscribing to the magazine.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 04:17:02 (EDT)

Anyone know of listings of rifle ranges by state available off the net? Currently stationed overseas, would like to be able to plan ahead once I rotate back stateside. Dying for a chance to ring out my weapon of choice at a distance greater than 200 yds. (Sendero in 7mm Rem mag) I just love the BC's of 7mm bullets.
Frank Kent <fdkent@usonet.ne.jp>
FPO, AP USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 10:00:16 (EDT)

Greg. I too had a 700PSS no det mag. It came to me used so I don't know what the problems were. My eyesight is not good
closer than 3'and i may have overlooked the problem you mentioned. It shot fair a 100 yards but at 500 and beyond you couldn't hit your hat with a box of shells. It has gone
bye bye! Unfortunately I can't check it. But it was a real turkey. I have not had good results with the PSS series and I don't want to start a panic but I find the Stainless varminters the best for the job and workmanship has been better on them. I've tried several PSSs before I offend someone in blue but the V's serve me better twist rates not
withstanding.
Bill <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 11:03:01 (EDT)

Sorry! My last message got truncated.

Dan: The Tasco Catalog # placed next to the scope in the photo is a misprint and the numbers listed in the column are misleading. If memeory serves, the actual SS10x42M is not shown in the catalog. The military looking scope sitting next to the big dial scope is the SS10x42 (note the missing "M"). The scope with the large side ring focus, as shown, again if memory serves, is a varmint scope and quite large. A variable 8-40x56mm. The sniper scopes are equal in size to the B&L tactical or Leupold Mk4 M1. Dealer list for the SS10x42 is around $350 and for the SS10x42M is $430. You must expect to pay $430 to $550 repsectivly retail, unless you can cut a deal. Ask you dealer to check out Jerry's Sport Center in PA. 1-800-234-2612. I know for a fact that they have these scopes in stock as well as just about every other optic brand you could ask for. Looking at the listing of scopes, Tasco has NO scope for over $500 dealer. That big ugly scope with the side wheel tractor tire lists for only $300+ so where ever you are getting the prices from is giving you some bad dope. This help?
Scott
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 11:47:00 (EDT)

Steve: Quick, tell me what the folowing wind dope is for the 168 grain Fed GM. 5mph @ 750 yards, full and half value? 7 mph @ 450 yards, full and half? 12 mph @ 900 yards, full and half value? 3 mph @ 400 yards at full and half...Now Give me both the moa change and the actual inches of delfection! Do it all in under 10 seconds. It is raining, you are covered in mud, and your watch crystal just got cracked on that rock you slide over.

My point is, you can not. The watch idea is good for limited data, as in hunting deer at short to medium range, but for the kind of precision shooting necessary in long range sniping, you need more data than that little watch can hold and you need it fast. While taping dope to the stock may look funny to you, it, in addition to having the data handy in your log book, is about the only way to quickly access the dope you need as the conditions change. I could care less about what the rifle looks like, as long as it is tactical. This is not a bloody beauty contest for prima donnas.

The data card I am currently relying on is reduced to about the size of a business card, is unobtrusive and has data for every three mph from 100 to 1000 yards. It also lists data for half and full value winds, AND gives me the corrections in MOA or inches. Better yet, it's non-existant battery can not fail. Come back when you develop a mil-spec hand held computer with all that data that can be adjsuted for temperature and altitude, AND give me everything I need at a glance. Then maybe your otherwise neat idea will make the cut. But saying you think taping dope to a stock looks bad is just plain silly. It is effective, fast, and it don't break.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 12:30:55 (EDT)

Scot,
Sorry to get your dander up pard,
As I said, you may find it useful and then again
you may not. You dont have to use it.
The message window on the watch gives the
correction for a 10 mile wind at 90 degrees in minutes
of angle for each range from 200 yards to 1000 yards
in 50 yard increments as well as the elevation in
50 yard increments, and yes I can get in way under
10 seconds. As I'm sure you know, the wind value
for a 5 mph wind would be half of the 10 mph value.
and also the wind value for other directions can be thought
of as a percentage of the value for a 90 degree wind.
As for the wind value for a 7 mile wind, that would be
in between the 5 and 10 mile values. but I never cut it
that fine because I cant sense the difference between
7.5 mph and 10 mph, and I doubt if many other people
can either, including you. And even if you could, the
way the wind is blowing in your face is only a small per-
centage of the blowing wind that must be taken into consideration
It all amounts to something on the order of a SWAG.
If you have as much info on your little card as you
say you have it would be of no use to me personally because
I couldnt read it. The lettering would be to small.
When you get into your 40s you will understand.
Steve
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 14:10:40 (EDT)

Scott: About the TASCO, thank you, yes it helps to a degree, at least now I know the model has not been discontinued or turned into the big ugly thing I saw the picture of. Still, I live in a state where all the dealers go through the same distributor and consider this a special order (thus the outrageous price) so I am left buying sight unseen. Time to get the shotgun news out and start making calls I guess.
Thanks again

Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Fairbanks, AK USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 14:20:22 (EDT)

Steve, I liked your wrist watch idea - until the Indigo light part!!! What a target you would make!!! I guess that's why the USMC issued me a watch "without" light!!! Later, JRM
JRMoore
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 15:13:05 (EDT)

Well as a matter of fact 10 years or more I programmed a small hand held bat operated to do just that you describe.
It was not mil spec but it's bat lasted 6 months. As has been stated you never know how far and how much wind. You could just carry the Hornady Manual. I guess you could pull out all the other calibers. And you could use it for a rest.
The other pages could be use for wipe!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 15:18:00 (EDT)

Steve: Enjoyed your posts, especially on wind. Scott knows wind all right, though really as relates to the consumption of MREs in the field.

Bill: Like the idea for alternative uses of the Hornady manual. Scott could've used it last year at SMTC when we were on a stalk and the MREs didn't plug him up as advertised. ;-) Fortunately for him, my log book (no pun intended) had detacheable sheets. Still, the paper didn't have the kind of softness he was used to.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 15:39:22 (EDT)

Steve & Scott

Try wind speed times range in hundreds divided by 10 for MOA corrections for 168gr. This works quite well! Steve, if you can't tell the difference between a 7.5 and 10 mile an hour wind, I advise against shooting further than 500 meters to save frustration factor. that 2.5 mph difference is worth about the width of the human body or 19 inches with the jump from 5 to 10 mph is worth 32 inches at 800 meters! Ask our students who just spent the day with only a couple of hits on an FBI target at 800 out of 20 rounds! The wind difference was a full to no value 4 to 7 mph from about 8 o'clock to 3 o'clock. When the target was exposed they had 20 seconds to engage. Neither the chart nor the watch will work under these circumstances. You must be able to see the wind at various distances and compute dominate wind then add or subtrate the junk in between. This is why, sometimes, the bullet seems to go up wind on what you thought was a good wind call. By the way the problem is worst at 1000 when a 1 mph wind change is good for 10 inches. This is always fun and a real ego buster!

Check the formula against the sierra reloading manual and you will see that the difference is always less than what a shooter can shoot within for any given range.

Have fun on the range! All ideas are worth a try. Just remember that what works for one does not work for all!

Rick <RBowcher>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 22:08:38 (EDT)

Steve: Didn't mean to bust your chops! I actually like you watch idea for its potential and have played with a similar idea using an electronic pocket phone number "rolodex". It works but has the same limitations I pointed out to you above. And yes, when I am on, I can tell the difference between a 5 and 7 mph wind. The real problem start up in the 15 mph range. But the hardest part is seeing the 20 mph sucker that is behind the tree line you are shooting over that is going the opposite direction. Fecal matter happens!

Yes the card is small, about 3x5 maybe less. It is readable, but not obstrusive. What set me off was the sacralige comment. A tactical rifle is not a $15000 Purdy and need not be kept pretty. Just the opposite. The card is just there to supplement your training and it helps a lot. Eventually you start to recall the key data but these so called cheat sheets really come in handy.

By the way, I wasn't kidding about wanting to see manufactored a small electronic data base similar in size to a handheld GPS. With a touch pad listing range and wind, you could really get your dope fast. Still, it would have to be troop proof. They tend to break stuff at the most awkward of times. Remind me to tell you all about how my "A" driver trashed a HMMWV in an open wheat field. Amazing.

To the evil Mr. Bain. Wait till you see what I slip into your data book this year. Trust me old pal, I WON'T remove the page first this time!

Dan, you need to get someone in the 48 to order you one of the Tasco scopes and ship direct. Sounds like they really gouge you up there. My father in law was a logger and tells horror stories of what he had to pay to feed the family. I guess gun stuff is a lot worse! As far as seeing one, all I can tell you is that it is a decent scope, properly sized, and of decent clarity and resolution, for the price. A friend just bought the SS10x42 at just above dealer ($370) and was thrilled with it. You usually can not even get mil-dots in that price range.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 22:41:53 (EDT)

To Frank: Go to the NRA site at http://www.nra.org and you'll find the information you need. You'll also find what you're looking for by doing a Deja News search.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, April 25, 1998 at 01:02:43 (EDT) To: Michael Roberts, the address of H-S Precision is as follows....1301 Turbine Drive, Rapid City, SD 57701 and their phone number is 605-341-3006 and fax to 605-342-8964.
KRS <swimfam@indynet.com>
Clinton, IN USA - Saturday, April 25, 1998 at 15:48:23 (EDT)

------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry fellas, I am trying to figure out how to send a post that isn't attached to someone else's like before. Well here goes!
KRS <swimfam@indynet.com>
Clinton, IN USA - Saturday, April 25, 1998 at 15:54:26 (EDT)

First let me start out by saying this is the greatest sight on the web--period! You fellows on the council truly have your stuff together! I was truly lost while SC duty roster was gone for awhile. Welcome back...... I am a dyed in the wool Remington 700 fan and currently own a VS in .308 with a new Leupold Tactical Scope in 8.25 X 25 that shoots a whole lot better than I do. Now a question for debate (pin your ears back and let me have it). I want to add to my toybox with a 700 in .300 Win Mag or go to a semi auto like an AR-10T, which one comes first? How do I get a subscription to Tactical Shooter?
KRS <swimfam@indynet.com>
Clinton, IN USA - Saturday, April 25, 1998 at 16:07:49 (EDT)

I enjoyed the page, losts of info. I am currently a norcotics detective and also the primary sniper for the Nelson Co. Police Dept. Keep up the good work.
DOUG CLARK <DC@KVNET.ORG>
Bardstown, Kentucky USA - Saturday, April 25, 1998 at 17:34:55 (EDT)

To Rick,
Yes, there is a third wind-doping technique that can be
used for situations such as you described, and shame on you
for bringing it up! I thought no one was supposed to talk
about it! Since no one ever came right out and told me not
to, I am going to go ahead and touch on it, although I am
reluctant to do so until everyone has had a chance to poke
fun at me about the watch thing.
The third technique has many names, I have heard high
master class rifle shooters call it slipping into the zone,
or (becoming unconscious), or as my Japanese wife would put
it, BECOMING ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE.
At my level of experience I can tell when I have slipped
into the zone, but I dont know how I got there, and I dont
know how long it will last, but I can sure get out of it fast enough.
It is not something that I can turn on at will, it
just happens. I can't count on it all the time so I use the
watch as a crutch. I find that the cheat sheets disturb the
harmony that is essential to achieve the next level.
If you would be so kind as to explain to me how to turn
it on, any time, anywhere, I would be most grateful.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Saturday, April 25, 1998 at 20:49:30 (EDT)

Steve

I don't know about not talking about it but it is something that has to be practiced. I cheat because I spend about 7 to 10 hours a day, 200+ days a year on the range doping either my wind for shooting or my students. During the course I'm either correcting them or checking them for accuracy.

A quick few hints that I give my students. Never read wind in one location! Always keep checking at multiple locations. Watch ALL indicators, mirage, grass, trees, shrubbery, what ever gives you speed and value. Note I did not say flags. The course I teach in makes it difficult to say time out while flags are spaced down range. Read wind from the gut, don't second guess yourself. The first read is usually the correct read and if not than your brain will process it to be correct next time. Make call, read trace and immediately look at wind indicators to see if the wind changed during the shot. Look away from wind indicators between shots or you will expect to see a specific speed indicator, and thus you will see that indicator whether it is right or not, brains are funny things about seeing what is expected. Look at mirage for speed and thickness. This lets you know when value is 70%, 50%, 20%, etc.

Calculate speed, value, do math, fire shot. Watch for new indicators, recalculate, etc, etc, etc. Mainly it is a matter of practice. The main advantage that we have is that we work in two man teams and the observer tells the shooter where to aim for corrections. That the shooter concentrates on the shot while the observer does all the mind numbing math. Needless to say the senior sniper (most experienced) is the observer.

Just to admit to you and Scott, we carry cheat sheets, we do not tape them to the weapon, they are kept with the observer and used when brain cramp causes a loss of math skills. This is a common happening while individuals are attempting to end the day for you and you are triing not to have the day end.

Go to the range and fire with weapon on a no wind zero. Watch the wind, estimate where the group will go due to wind, fire a five round group. Check your estimate, practice this and you will be amazed how accurate you will become!

Main thing is to have fun!!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 00:42:53 (EDT)

To KRS: Visit the link to Tactical Shooter in one of my recent posts; you'll find subscription information there.

Since I'm working part-time for ArmaLite, besides my regular job (not to mention I'm ArmaLIte's webmaster), I'll have to recommend an ArmaLite rifle. Seriously though, I just bought one, I'm no richer than most of you guys, and they're just good rifles. The guys in the shop "care," and I think you get a good product for your money. And yes, I also thought this way before I worked for ArmaLite.

(By the way, thanks for the kind words about our website.)

To Doug: Bardstown? BARDSTOWN??? Heck, Doug, I've been through Bardstown more times than I can remember. Used to use Bardstown Cleaners to get my uniforms done when I was at FT Knox, and bought a Chinese air rifle from that place in town (can't remember the name just at the moment) that sells them. Thanks for writing, good to hear from you.

To Rick: Hey, do you guys ever run any Sniper Employment Officer courses (per Thomas Blahnik's article True Bravery on our Articles and Commentary page)? I'd sure love to "persuade" my Reserve unit to send me to this course.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 02:30:02 (EDT)

To Sara: You told me to post something to you so here it is. Oh dont forget I need my USMC marksmanship manual.

To Grasshopper: I was just curious if you were planning on attending the NRA highpower state championships in Colinga May 2nd?
keep em in the x-ring yall
c/CMSgt. Keith Kacmar AFJROTC <Kacmar@thevine.com>
Saugus, CA USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 02:59:01 (EDT)

http://www.riflebarrels.com/velocities.htm

The above URL is a timely (9 Apr 98) article by Dan Lilja for me, since I'm building a rifle in the same chambering.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 04:07:24 (EDT)

Correction: I mean it's a timely article for me, written by Dan Lilja. Sorry for any misleading done by my previous post.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 04:09:31 (EDT)

READING WIND

MSG Boucher:

Thanks for the tip on learning wind by practicing with a no wind
zero and shooting groups to verify your read. Don't know why I'd
never thought of that before, but its a great idea.

Jeff <dog2197@aol.com>
VT USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 13:09:27 (EDT)

LOGBOOKS:

I gotta throw in my 2cents on this logbook issue.

I think that data cards on a rifle are a camoflauge violation,
however, believe that a logbook and data book are just as much
a part of a snipers uniform/equipment as his scope and ammo (well,
ok, maybe not the ammo).

The formulas and math after about 600 meters are such that I, being
a former grunt need reference material. And I havent even started to
think about all the other considerations which I can't committ to memory.

Things like performance of different lots of ammo, temperature and elevation,
humidity, etc. etc.

Of course, there are situations when time is of the essence
and although Ive got my own SOPs for that, I wont get into it.
However, as a sniper, I generally fight on my terms. My time and
place of choice, therefore, have time to prepare. If not, thank god
for my buddy with an M203, tacair and pre planned target reference
points, and above all..AC-130s.

I also need those books for my reporting formats which for a sniper
should go far beyond SALUTE and OCOKA. I carry them in a safe pocket
and treat them as securely as I would an SOI. My logbooks and databooks
are also a must for debriefings, which although mine were often somewhat
neglected by the chain of command at first, became routine when they
learned how valuable that info can be to an operation.

And as someone pointed out earlier, its one thing to do a calculation on the
rifle range, and entirely another when someone who will kill you is on the other
side. Particullarly if rounds have been fired, I find it much more efficient,
and a confidence builder to know that I have a simple reference to do the thinking
for me.

Then of course, like I said earlier, I was infantry, and maybe not as smart as you
other MOSs (laugh).

Jeff

Jeff <dog2197@aol.com>
VT USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 13:33:34 (EDT)

Mr. Taylor

We used to run Employment classes on request. However, since so many have decided that they are "experts" on everything in the military, the demand has all but ceased to exist. EMail me your guard unit and what you are looking for in the way of a course and I'll see what happens.

Jeff -- You are absolutely right about the log books. Our students are required to write down every shot fired with all pertinent data. The book is mandantory for pre-mission planning. However, we do not carry the complete book in on a mission due to the bulk of the book. We extract the pertinent data required and put them on cheat sheets. The sheets are laminated and kept with the observer. This lowers bulk and, heaven forbid, lost books. We do not tape them to our rifle stocks since the observer tells the shooter where to aim and this would be awkward for the shooter to see once in position where the wrong move would give his position away.

Enough rambling for now. Guys use what works for you!! Remember, there are NO absolute rights in this game, only very absolute wrongs, and they can kill you!

Have a safe one guys!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EDT)

To Russell Taylor: The Name of the air rifle place is Compassco. While at Knox I guess you spent a little time at Scott Mountain Rifle Range. I was just issued a new Remington PSS so I guess I'll go up to Scott and spend a little time breaking her in!!!! You've got to love this job. Good to hear from you.
Doug Clark <DC@kvnet.org>
Bardstown, Ky. USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 21:00:58 (EDT)

Great site Just getting back into long range shooting I was in USMC 1962 -1968 CPL. great info and input here .
thanks Ken
Ken <kengilly@cruzio.com>
Santa Cruz Mtns., Ca. USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 22:03:55 (EDT)

To: Russ Taylor I am sorry, but I could not find the place you posted the website of Tactical Shooter. Could you please post it again or send me an e-mail with the info.......Thank You very much.
KRS <swimfam@indynet.com>
Clinton, IN USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 22:35:23 (EDT)

I picked up an item at an estate sale and was wondering
if anyone can help me.

It is an ART system for an M-14 with a cam system for the balistics of the round for the time, circa vietnam, that changes the angle of the scope at the rear mount.
It has seen a bit of abuse and I was wondering if any one knew of any one that would refurbish it to better condition or does anyone know if Redfield does any of that sort of thing yet. It has the Redfield 3-9 scope mounted on the system.
thanks in advance.
LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
Mi USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 23:50:36 (EDT)

LAWCOP:

If you have a Vietnam era ART and base, that's a real find. If I were you, I'd be talking to some of the published sniping authors like Peter Senich and Maj John Plaster. Amongst their acquaintances I'm sure they have friends who either would re-balance your wallet or at least give you a fair market value estimate. As for repairs, changing anything on some collectibles is like touching up the Mona Lisa with a paint roller. I'd suggest you leave it intact until you are really sure it is not valuable. If it is genuine, leave it alone and therefore representive of actual wear and tear. But you own what you own, and this is only the opinion of a guy who hangs out in museums and buys smart guy's books.

Terry

Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 00:18:05 (EDT)

Log book: Be lost with out it.

Dope taped to stock: Yes, it is a camo violation if done in white paper! I recall during the course at SMTC, looking at my buddy and wondering what that erie glow was emintating form his rifle. It was 9 p.m., overcast, and as black as could be, yet there was enough ambient light to cause some reflection. Not good. If you have to use the stock dope, use a dull paper in laminate and camo tape over it till you need it. We relied more on the data in the log book and used the stock data only as back up. It is there if and when you need it. Arhcers tape when placed over the data card hides it effectively. Guess I just like a hard copy available at all times. Brain not so good anymore.

Rick made a good point though - the observers has the dope handy so the shooter does not need to have it in front of him at all times. It is a back up more than anything. Unless you happen to be one of the unlucky Law Enforcement types whose command doesn't see fit to give you a partner. I hear that happens a lot.

Rick and Steve also made good points about the so-called zone. Be it High power or practicing long range tacitcal shooting, the mind is pretty neat in how it interprets data. T-LAR actually works to some extent - at least on good days! When going through the course at SMTC I can not tell you how often I looked at the indicators, shrugged and said "looks to be 7 mph", shot and got a center hit. You are not guessing. Your brain is just taking in all the relevant data with out you realizing it. More than anything, it is a matter of repetitive, endless practice.
Scott <xring@vicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 08:53:26 (EDT)

Looking for information on Tactical Shooter?

Tactical Shooter Magazine
222 McKee Street
Manchester, Connecticut 06040
Phone: (860) 645-8776 | FAX (860) 643-8215
http://www.tacticalshooter.com

Anything else?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 09:39:02 (EDT)

Lawcop

He agree with Terry on the ART scope. I wouldn't mess with it until I had it looked at by a collector. The ART scope came in various models, ART I, ART II, ART IV, and ART MPC (I think?, Help me out guys if you can remember the Urban/CT model number). The ART I has a single point mount for the M21 and the reticule has two horizontal stadia lines on the verticle crosshair that subtends 30 inches when properly camed to range (top of head to waist of intended victum). This gave a range equal to the power setting. Example 5 power = 500 yards. The scope was zeroed at 300 yards and the cam took care of the rest (supposedly). Problem is cam wear at the high end of the range causes increased inaccuracy at longer ranges. The reticule also has two verticle lines on the horizontal cross hair that subtends 60 inches or 30 inches from crosshair to stadia line when properly camed and was used as a reference for holds for wind and leads for movers. Invented by a Marine by the name of Leatherwood. Since I'm Army (or was) I'll leave the Marine jokes out of this one!

The ART II used a double point mount that required a modified stripper clip attachment. It has two dots on the horizontal crosshair that subtends 60 inches and thick horizontal duplex crosshairs and a thick bottom to the vertical crosshair. The thick area subtends 1 meter when properly camed and corresponds to top of head to groin on the intended victum. This scope is set up in meters. The range cam and scope power could be seperated and after proper caming for range the shooter could max out the power or lower the power as needed for the situation. This scope ws truely hated by most of my peers and we stayed with the ART I after SEA and the grab of all out non-standard SWSs.

The other two ARTs were designed for Urban and camed to a smaller range.

All of these ART scopes are difficult to find except the ART II that is being sold by Leatherwood. As i said I would not use it for plinking until I got an estimate of its worth.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 21:25:45 (EDT)

Further info on the ART system I picked up.
the Redfield scope has the following markings on it:
3X-9X
AR TEL
SER. NO. 10XX
on the side of the top adjustment.
the cross hairs have short vertical and horizontal wires
or brackets approx 1/4" on sides, top and bottom of the center xhair
I'm guessing a scale of some kind for finding appropriate cam position for range.
On the base of the mount on the camming ring it is marked:
7.62 MM
M-118NM

the whole system was contained in an O.D. green hardcase.

Any further info will be greatly appreciated.
thanks
Gary

LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
Mi USA - Monday, April 27, 1998 at 21:57:55 (EDT)

This is my first time here, and I must say that this site and everyone here is first class all the way, eager to share information with those that are new or just have a question.

I was thinking of building my own custom target rifle for use at ranges of 500-1000 yards, and maybe even shorter if I wind up taking it hunting. I have decided to use a 700 action. The exact barrel, stock and trigger are up in the air at this point. I am looking for suggestions on caliber and optics. I have a Ruger in .300 win mag, though I'm not truly impressed with it's accuracy. I really like the .300 round and am wondering if it would be a good choice for a target rifle. Perhaps a 30-06 Improved?

On the same Ruger I have a Swarovski 3-9 that I am just in love with, but I'm leaning toward a mil-dot scope. I'm looking for suggestions here as well. Any info, e-mail or comments are welcome an appreciated. I am new to long range shooting, but I am learning everything I can. Thanks in advance all!!!
Ralph <m1911@earthlink.net>
Houston, Texas USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 00:40:46 (EDT)

To Rick: I'm NOT in the Guard -- I don't do sandbags. I'm in the Army Reserve, currently stuck in a beans/blankets/bullets quartermaster slot (gag, puke). My E-mail address accompanies each of my posts here on the Roster. Thanks, Rick, for any information you can send. I know what you mean about "experts." They're everywhere. Know why officers "don't" wear their marksmanship badges? Because all officers are presumed to be expert shots. Yes, this is the official explanation I received once. Well, I bloody well WEAR mine, because I EARNED them (expert rifle, expert pistol), and I can tell you that all officers are NOT "expert shots" -- let alone experts at anything else. The best officers are usually those who were prior enlisted (usually, but not always).

To Jeff: AC 130 gunships? I like how you fight. You remind me of me.

To Doug: Yes, that's it, Compasseco. Yes, I've been to ALL the ranges at FT Knox -- it's like my second home. Gee, I guess you have a rough job, Doug, being issued nice equipment like the PSS. Next time I'm going to be down at Knox I'll let you know, but I think most of my armor days are behind me since I'm on a corps staff (I hate staff work).

To KRS: The link to Tactical Shooter was in my post on Friday, April 24, 1998 at 04:17:02 (EDT).

To Torsten: Think you can get me to the SIG Arms facility while I'm in Germany? I just saw a picture of the R93 sniper rifle. God, I've got to have one of those!

To Ralph: If you're going to build a rifle on a Remington action (good choice, by the way), consider a 28- or 30-inch barrel, with a #7 contour, chambered for .340 Weatherby Magnum. If you compare the ballistics of all the bullets in a .300 Winchester Magnum offering against those available in the .338 caliber range for the .340 Weatherby Magnum, to include the downrange energy of both, you'll like the latter.

By the way -- does anyone know where I can get my hands on a "good" .338/378 Weatherby Magnum finish reamer? The Clymer reamer I rented from White Rock Tool & Die was too small in the shoulder and neck, and my project rifle is on hold until I can get a properly-dimensioned reamer to open up the chamber in my rifle. And lest someone ask, "yes," the bolt closed on the "go" gage and did not close on the "no go" gage that I rented from White Rock at the time I rented the reamer. Ron Bennett, owner of Clymer, is not giving me a "warm fuzzy" about when the company will make another reamer in this chambering. If someone could get me in touch with a proper "within spec" reamer, I'd be willing to send them a bottle of good whiskey. Am I desperate? Hell yes!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 01:25:26 (EDT)

Russell, I am working on SIG 226 Pistols and it should be possible to visit them. It is a long haul from Wiesbaden.
Best would be if you can take a train to Münster /Westfalen were I would pick you up.

Data Cards: I have glued a Miniature version inside the Buttler Creek cap. Its right there to look at.
The other data is taped to the stock by means of a Brother Tape Printer.

Torsten
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 03:29:07 (EDT)

Russell,
the following Company manufactures exellent reamers, to CIP (notloose SAMI) spec´s. They can make the dies as well.

Triebel Waffenwerkzeuge GmbH
Kemtener Str. 73
D-87600 Kaufbeuren
Germany

I´ll get a catalog and price list for you

Torsten PS hold the Booze, get me a Day on a 1000 Meter +
Range upon my next trip stateside.
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 03:42:10 (EDT)

To Torsten: Thanks for the help with the reamer, but I'm hoping to find one domestically a LOT sooner, if possible.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 05:01:19 (EDT)

Hello again,
I have some questions concerning scope mounting. Does anyone have any experience with the "Tactical 2 " brand of rings and bases? I just received mine in the mail today and after mounting them on my 700 long action I must say I am a bit disappointed. As advertised they have a WIDE slot and the recoil lugs are indeed cut square, only they are noticeably undersize, allowing them to move a fair bit in the wide slot. Also what about "lapping" a scope to the rings? logically it would be done to insure a precise fit between the scope and the rings ... aesthetically it seems a bit brutal on the scope tube. Have I misunderstood the process?

Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
AK USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 06:23:06 (EDT)

To Dan: Oh, GOD, yes!!! You have gravely misunderstood the scope lapping processing. You do NOT lap the rings with the scope!!! Hey, that's okay, that's what we're all here for, to help one an other.

Whether a 30mm tube or a one-inch tube, you get a lapping dowel of the same size, appropriate (and varying) grades of lapping compound, and with the rings lined up correctly you start lapping the rings by sliding the dowel back and forth, using the lapping compound to remove as much metal as is necessary to get a good fit when you lay the scope into the lower ring halves.

You can avoid this operation by getting Burris Signature rings, which have inserts that you can simply adjust to correct for any "problems." If you're feeling rich, you can buy the Jewell rings, which will accomplish the same thing.

Sinclair International (1-219-749-5136) or Brownells (1-515-623-5401) has lapping kits for this purpose. From experience, Sinclair is very helpful and patient in explaining how to do things.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 08:18:06 (EDT)

Dan: Lapping the scope rings: The normal procedure is to mount the bottom rings in position, place a steel rod with a grinding compound on it into the rings. The rod should be equal to the diameter of the scope. You then work the rod back and forth until both rings have enough inner material removed that the rod sits square in the rings. By doing this, you can get close to 100% contact between te ring and scope, and also eleviate any binding that might be cause by the rings not being aligned with each other. You only put your scope into the rings once everythign is squared away, so the scope doesn't suffer any marring. you do not use the scope for the steel rod! Sinclair International (219) 493-1858 has a ring lapping kit for 1" (part # LAP-1) or 30mm rings (LAP-3). Laping rings is very important if you use two peice bases as the base mounting screw holes in the receiver are not alway drilled true.

I have seen your Tactical 2 bases but have no experience with them. These are marketed by Entreprise Arms, correct?
Scott <xring@viocenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 08:28:41 (EDT)

Torsten: I also mount elevation data in the rear scope cap. Good place as it only takes a glance to refresh that failing memory!

Ralph: Barrels: Hart. They make one of the best. There are equally good barrels out there - but Hart makes a consistently quality product. Caliber: if you are not committed to a magnum, there are several good alternatives that stay above the speed of sound, and therefor stay stable, out to 1000 yards. Even the mild .308 Winchester can do this with the right bullet - 175 grain Sierra MK. If you want blazing speed for caliber, look into the new Lazzaroni line of factory wildcats. The 7.82 Patriot is the same size and caliber as the .308, but holds something like 75 grains of powder! Avoid belted magnums. The belt is useless and makes headspacing a nightmare at times. The newer designs of magnum have no belt and headspace on the shoulder. They also have more efficient shoulder profiles.

Mil-dots will serve you well to 1000 yards with practice. Nice thing about them is that you can use just about any target size and still get with in 15% of the actual range. Stadia type reticles are sometimes harder to work with as they are typically spaced at only ONE subtention, ie: 9" or 36" or somewhere in between. The mil-dot can be a pain to work with sometimes if you can not learn to break it down, but with it you can range targets from a several inches to BIG. It is very versatile for this reason.

Scott
USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 08:47:22 (EDT)

Dan,

Re: Lapping Scope Rings

One does not lap the rings with the scope itself, but with a one inch rod or tube. I want to discuss some problems with the lapping idea in general. For high accuracy rifles it would probably be best to epoxy bed the scope into the rings, just as we bed a rifle action into the stock. This solves several problems and leaves the scope/rifle action interface in a stress-free condition.

Lapping is used to correct height and alignment problems of the installed rings. These problems can come from the receiver, bases, or the rings themselves. When you are done lapping you should have two rings that are in perfect in alignment in which to lay your scope. The fly in the ointment is this. Is your scope perfectly straight? Probably not. (This may not apply to scopes tubes that are machined in one setup from a piece of bar stock, such as the Leupold Mark series.)

I've put my three Leupold target scopes on V-blocks and dial indicated them near the turrets to check for straightness. They are not straight! (These were not purchased used either.) The turrets are threaded with taps and the tubes with dies, and we can expect the usual results that come from this method. Also, the tubes are not always one inch in diameter, (mine vary from .995 to 1.004), and they aren't round either. The front tube on one of mine is oval by several thousandths. Someone might think that the scope rings have distorted the tubes, but even the forward areas of the front tubes that have never touched a scope ring, still show these irregularities. I may be wrong, but I believe these tubes are made from extrusions. This means that the aluminum billet is forced by tremendous pressure through a die and the material comes out tubular in shape. Not the best way to produce a precision tube.

When checking a rifle's bedding, I use the dial indicator method. Once, out of curiosity, using the same technique, I loosened and tightened the Redfield Big Bore rings on my 40-XC with a coin, and was able to see the barrel rise and fall four or five thousandths inch in relationship to the stock! Hard to believe isn't it? The scope was actually bending the action and in turn it was shifting the barrel. I'm a person who never believes something if it only happens one time, so I repeated the whole test several times to make sure that what I was seeing, was really true.
Bedding the bottom half of the scope rings eliminated all movement when the test was repeated.

Epoxy bedding is it is removable and you can add extra to the rear ring if you need more elevation. Once you lap away metal you'll never put it back on.

For those who aren't familiar with the old Redfield Big Bore rings. They slide and lock onto Unertl dovetail POSA bases. There was a Small Bore ring too which used the standard Unertl cup-type base. All these rings were discontinued in the mid 1970's I believe. Too bad, they had a good thing going.

Ron N.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 09:45:01 (EDT)

Ron.. your bedding scope mounts is very interesting. I assume you mount the rings and tighten then put the epoxy on the bottom half and lay the scope in it to let the epoxy harden? Are you using a compound of the scope to facilitate scope removal or just letting it dry on the scope. maybe I am not understanding just what is going on there? I have never tried to experiment in this direction but I've had my
suspicions on some hard case guns. Another thing I've never heard mentioned here is the resonance of the gun and it's being affected by scopes of different size and weight. Is it my imagination or have others noted that guns shoot different when scope sizes (physical not lense) are changed even when both are the same good quality such as changing a Leupold 3.5x10 55mm to a 4.5x14 42mm or in one case to a
1.5x5 20mm that I did. what say sniper world?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 11:42:19 (EDT)

Speaking of lapping !

Has anyone tried Firelapping ?

I have only had guts to do it on an old Anschütz, by dipping a .22 Z into lapping compound and firing about 20 rounds.

Out of a vise the rifle shot as good as before, so it didnt hurt. It may work better on Barrels that have bore diameter problems to start with so the Anschütz was probably not the best idea.

I could try it on my Norinco M305 (M14, I know its a Copy, but mine shoots better) but it has a cromed Barrel and removing part of that would be stupid.

..........

I´ll take my Mauser SR 86 apart and lap the scope rings, I think I´ll use a Tasco for a dowel ( Hehehe ).

Torsten
Torsten <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 12:14:52 (EDT)

Thanks for the info,
I am thinking I had the right idea because as Ron N pointed out , it makes very little sense to lap a part to something other than the intended mating surface. Next an Item of interest (maybe) I have been trying to locate a TASCO ss10x42 (or 10x42m). I finally talked to a very nice dealer that called his TASCO rep for me. The rep said " we are unable to meet the demands for the scope at this time it should become available in 60 -90 days. Pricing will be in the $800.00 - $1000.00 range) Guess I wanted a Leupold after all ;-)
Scott yes the Tac 2 mounts are marketed (made?)by entreprise and they have the right idea but it is my feeling that they were poorly executed

Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
AK USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 15:25:20 (EDT)

Re: Bedding scope tubes
Bill Rodgers,

Bill, Yes I do use a car wax for a release agent. I put about a quarter inch gob of a stiff epoxy into the lower rings and then set the scope down into it paying attention to approx. eye relief position. Squeeze most of the epoxy out. Do the clean up later and you are all set. Some benchresters used to coat the top half of the ring also, but that is probably overkill.

As an aside:
Another thing that we should be kept it mind is the differing coefficients of thermal expansion between aluminum and steel. Aluminum expands and contracts twice as much as steel. When we rigidly lock our scopes to our receivers what happens when the temperature changes? Once again we have stresses but in a different direction. The scope will be either pulling or pushing on its scope rings. Not good, when your are counting on that one perfect shot. This can probably explain why rifles seem to change their zero for no apparent reason. Perhaps when the stress is great enough the scope tube suddenly slides a little to relieve pressure and the barrel is now pointing in a slightly different direction.

Now with the Unertl's suspension system this would not be a problem. Everything floats. I know that conventional wisdom dictates an internally adjustable scope, but the old system as it has its good points too. Let's say for some reason you don't trust your internally adjustable scope anymore. You have no choice but to send it back to the maker and "hope" they do something. With Unertl's exterior adjustments all you have to do is to put a dial indicator on the tube and click away. You can easily check for repeatability, backlash, etc. Everything is in plain sight and there are no mysteries. The one downside is that they are not sealed. But perhaps it is better if they "breathe" a little. Never had one fog up here in Ohio, and we have quite a variety of weather conditions. But then I never hunted varmints in the rain either.

Comments and criticisms welcome.

Ron N.

Ron N. <rnosack.accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 16:43:11 (EDT)

To Bill R.
Funny you should mention that. I just ran into the same
problem. I have a heavy barreled M98 mauser 30-06 with a
bell-carson stock that I recently switched scopes on.
The old scope was a 4-16 variable and the new scope was a
Weaver KT15. I did nothing but remove the top clamps,
and replace the the scope, and retightened the clamps.
Now the whole gun rings like a tuning fork when fired.
It is quite noticeable and takes about 1 second to die down.
I tried 3 different loads in it to see if it repeated and
it does. Both front and rear rings were weaver extension
type, and I am going to switch the front one to a standard
weaver to see if that fixes the ringing problem.
I have never heard of anyone else having this problem yet.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 19:01:39 (EDT)

I am thinking about purchasing a Remington 700 VS in 22-250 for varmint hunting. What kind of reliable scope could I get for a reasonable price? Thanks
Jason Yarbrough <hunterjhy@aol.com>
Canton, GA USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 19:42:26 (EDT)

RE: Scope recommendation

Jason,

Someone on the AR list once asked about the KT-15 Weaver. This was my reply to him.

I can recommend it highly. The adjustable objective goes from 10 yds to infinity and is boldly marked. To adjust from 50 yds. to infinity only uses about 1/3 turn, so if you put the Butler scope covers on (recommended) they always stay in a usable position. The tube and turret are one piece which should make for a straighter setup. When I've put Leupolds on V-blocks I found out they are not straight (lo 1/3tory). The 1/4 minute clicks are very usable, nice and crisp with a little audible click sound for confirmation. When Weaver says 1/4 minute clicks, they mean just that, not more....... not less (long story). The arrangement of tube lengths and turret position allow you to put it into the Armalite scope base and still have enough eye relief on a flat top receiver. The crosshairs are of the Duplex persuasion and are not too fine for varmint work, nor too coarse to do target work. At 200 yds the crosshairs will cover up a 3/4
Ron N. <rnosack.accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 20:23:39 (EDT)

For some reason my first posting got cut off, so I'm now sending the rest. Thanks for your indulgence.
Ron N.

At 200 yds the crosshairs will cover up a 3/4
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 20:31:48 (EDT)

Twice I got cut off. Sorry again.
Ron N.

At 200 yds the crosshairs will cover up a 3/4" paster, which is what I use for zeroing purposes. I just use the old benchrest trick of putting the paster in one of the 90 degree intersections leaving a slight amount of white showing. The price of the scope is certainly reason-able,........ I could use another one myself. The objective eyepiece has rubber on the end so that if it bumps your glasses it won't chip or scratch them. The optics are pretty good, maybe not quite as flat a field as Leupolds but more than usable. We use 15X to 24X scopes at 1000 yds so the power is adequate for varminting or any other use.

I don't see how you could be disappointed in this scope, as it has all the good features rolled up into one.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 20:34:10 (EDT)

Firelapping:

I bought a Firelapping kit this year for my .308s. (Outlanders will appreciate this - I bought it on my credit card on a day when the exchange rates were the worst in ten years. OUCH!)

I pulled some poorly handloaded 168gr Sierras and carefully coated the bullets with the recommended grit. Read the manual carefully. Read it outloud if English is not your first language. It is written in a folksy common voice. I took the rifles to the range with my cleaning rod and the recommended cleaners. It takes a long time and I'm not yet finished.

I used the Sierras because the manual recommends jacketed bullets for rifles with tight chambers and throats, rather than cast lead.

Supposedly the grit will smooth off the tool marks and roughness. I'll let you know how it works.

As for epoxy bedding rings. I used a 1" aluminum bar and steel filled epoxy. The dark steel colour blends better than others I considered.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@skworkpatico.ca>
Sask Canada - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 20:50:16 (EDT)

LAWCOP

Your scope is an ART I Scope. The scope is set for M118 National Match (now Special Ball) ammunition, 173 grains with a muzzel velocity of 2550. The stadia lines are set as in my earlier post, as is zero procedures. The scope is now fairly rare as opposed to the ART II scope. Check the mating surface of the range cam (power collar) and the bedding nipple. On alot of the scopes the cam would wear and a valley would cause ranging problems at ranges beyond 450 to 500 yards. As I mentioned, I would have it appraised by a gun collector before I did anything with the scope.

Russell - My apologies to you over the Guard. I'm used to talking about the guard because all of the SF Reserve slots were done away with and we now only have Guard slots. I'll get up with you on EMail on deployment info.

Scott - Break down the Mil Dots further! You'll stay within 5% error that way and with practice even a lower percent error is attainable.

Keep Shooting guys! Don't give Murphy a place to roost.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 21:53:32 (EDT)

Rick: Keep it coming, man! It is oustanding to have your wealth of experience available to us all.

BTW, my contact at ARDEC has sent me a s---load of great stuff on the M118LR. It's not here yet, but when it gets in, I'll make copies for you. I'll be doing some pistol training over the weekend with Scott and will be off-line. I won't be satisfied unless and until the palm of my hand is sore from the H&K.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 23:40:18 (EDT)

Any one had any experience with the Shepherd scopes.
The theory is interesting and practical although the circle for aiming point may lack something as far as pinpoint precision is concerned. The elevation is figured by the 18" range circles leaving the windage to be figured.
LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
Mi. USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 00:12:44 (EDT)

LAWCOP: Never seen them, but Rod Ryan of Storm Mountain has had some good experiences with students shooting the Shephard scope. Still, I think the mil dot's pretty cool.

Mr. bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 01:06:17 (EDT)

To: Dan / Alaska
Reg.; Tasco SS10x42. Try Shooter's Oasis (Richard) in Sunset, Utah, phone:(801)776-1273. They can get you one for
about $420.
Another good choice (but no Mil-Dot) is the T-series Weavers.They have probably the best adjustments on the market. The Weavers can be found for $300-400.
By the way, we are not that far apart, Alaska and northern British Columbia. Good luck!

Hans
BC CANADA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 02:42:24 (EDT)

does anybody make a scope with a BDC and 1/4 minute clicks? I00.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 03:01:03 (EDT)
Could someone get me an E-mail address and/or phone number for Keith Francis at JGS Tool (the chamber reamer company)? Also, the same for Pacific Precision? I'm getting the run-around at Clymer Tool -- and I'm losing my temper. NOT a pretty sight, when I lose my temper, I assure you. I think they learned their customer service training from hostage negotiators. ("We need more time. We can't get you the reamer this quickly. We're working on getting you what you want." Bla bla bla.) Yeah, maybe if it was THEIR rifle, they'd all move their butts to get something done. Did I mention that I'm losing my temper with Clymer Tool?
On bedding scopes: Layne Simpson wrote the best article on mounting a scope that I've ever read in my life, just a few issues ago in Shooting Times -- to include how to use bedding compound in securing the bases, and other tidbits of information. If you're serious about bedding scopes, you need to read this article.
To Rick (regarding the Guard comment): All is forgiven. Mom has dinner waiting on the table. You can come home again. Ask me how I feel about the ".45 ‘Long' Colt" sometime. (Make sure you're far away when you ask.) Say, since you're in North Carolina, why don't you just come on out to "observe" the Hathcock charity shoot (9-10 May 98)? Maybe you could even pitch in and help out running it (check with Rod Ryan and/or Scott Powers before you do anything).
On fire-lapping: I have experience with it. I'll never do it again on a "serious" shooter. It erodes the throat. However, for helping an "experienced" surplus military rifle to shoot again, I'd not hesitate a moment -- but my preference would be for "normal" lapping, using cast lead slugs. For your own sake, don't fire-lap gas-operated firearms. Actually, there's very little reason not to have a bore lapped the good ol' fashioned way. If it's your only means of lapping, though, then fire-lap.
To Ron: On your comment about thermal changes affecting scope alignment, you probably have a good point. For this reason, I'd think about sending along my rings and bases when having my barrel or barreled action cryogenically frozen. Thereafter, any thermal changes would be nonexistent or minimal. Regarding Weaver scopes' repeatability -- it is legendary, and that's all that needs to be said about that.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 03:17:51 (EDT)
To Russell: I am no gunsmith but a 28-30 inch barel seems a bit longish to me I Once talked to a match rifle shooter/builder and I was told that the best comprimise between increasing muzzel velocity and dampining barrel harmonics was about 26.5 inches with 28 inches being the no point in exeding length. What are your thoughts on barrel length?
PS please pardon my spelling its late
Keith Kacmar <Kacmar@thevine.com>
Saugus, CA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 03:31:16 (EDT)
Scopemounts unknown to americans: RAILMOUNTS
European scopes can be ordered with rails. The rail makes the scope more rigid and takes all the pressure away from the tube and there are no rings to leave marks/scratches on the tube. I have a H&K SL6 with a S&B 6X42 with rail in a H&K QD mount. Most mounts using the standard rail requires drilling holes trough the rail but the H&K-mount does not. It works great. If anyone has a H&K-rifle with this QD-mount just remove the rings and drop in a railed scope.
Zeiss has a new type of rail. A norwegian gunsmith, Ragnar Hansen, makes a onepiece milled steel Rem700base for this system. With the base mounted on the action the Zeiss drops into the base (like a 700 in a H&S stock) and are fastend with screws through the mag.opening. The scoperail is supported the entire length of the base/action leaving the tube stressfree. The Zeiss-rail do not require any drilling of holes in the rail.
Other advantages: No ring/turretconflicts, scope is always level on the rifle.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 04:22:07 (EDT)
To Keith: Barrel length, for me, is primarily determined by two factors, purpose and internal ballistics. If I want a rifle that will let me get through tightly wooded areas, I'll opt for something along the lines of a carbine. Open areas, however, will allow me to handle more barrel length. And, if velocity is a desired factor, then I probably want more length than less -- but there is a point of diminishing returns. (Please read the article by Dan Lilja before commenting on this further. You'll see that length varies according to chambering and contour, in relation to what you want the rifle to accomplish.
With respect to internal ballistics (i.e., the powder's burn rate), extruded powders typically take more time to burn completely, and -- within reason -- you might as well take advantage of as much of this "burn" as you can by keeping it inside the bore. I don't want to insult the person who gave you your information, but there cannot be a "hard and fast" rule to barrel harmonics. If you want to jump into a discussion of time/pressure curves, we can do so, but let me say that bullet weights, powder types (and burn rates), powder charges, rifling rate-of-twist, bore smoothness, bullet jacket composition, and a few other considerations must all be taken into account when choosing proper barrel length. The barrel alone, for my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum, weighs 10 pounds. Though it is 30 inches in length, in hindsight I wish I'd have gone with 32 inches to gain a little more velocity for the bullet/powder combination I'll be using. It is a #8 contour, and not intended for quick maneuvering in dense jungles or thick forests. Lilja's article contains a lot of useful information on the matter of barrel length versus velocity.
And don't worry about your spelling -- you got my first name right, and that gets my respect. Take care.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 04:39:39 (EDT)
TASCO SS10x42 !
A few years ago I bought 5 Phrobis scopes in 10x42.
They even have the Tasco logo on the left side (if you dare to peel the Phrobis label away). Only difference is that the Probis has a patented cant gauge inside to give you a way of leveling your shooting position. Once it is set up right it is actually pretty helpful, but a clamp on bubble level will do as well. It also comes with a laser filter.
I have two in use on a Voere 2185 Semi auto and on a H&K MSG.
I still have three of them that I would part with!
Sheperdetty/B>
A friend in Kansas told me a few years ago about the "great" Sheperd scopes and how they prefom. He had about seven scopes that, dumbass me, bought. The Idea is really neat, the only scope I really enjoy is the one for the .22. I have it on a Rugger 10/22 and can hit Man size targets out to 250 Meters. ( on a range with 20 foot berms and only Mole farts for crosswind )
The others have gone to several German gun magazines and were trashed. They do not hold up when you really use them.
The variables change zero, and the tubes are pretty thin.
I tried several times to get them repaired/changed but so far the Sheperds have not done anything for me.
I guess the would make a good tent stake.
I look forward to any positive input as I belive that the Idea is good and should be followed up.
Tschüß Torsten
Torsten <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 05:32:52 (EDT)
Hi !
I would like to hear from you comments concerning left handed sniper-accurate rifles. I just heard that Remington have started to produce their 700 VS in a left handed configuration (short action). Savage has been producing their 110 FPs and 112 FVLSS rifles for left handed for a long time. Should I go via Remington or Savage ? What is their price difference in USA ? (Price is an issue although a semi-custom rifle from Sako components can be had for a not-impossible-high sum. I prefer factory-issue because it is cheaper and hassle-free.)
What do you think about the optimum length of a barrel for 308 Win ? My goal is to be able to stay supersonic out to 1000 meters, if possible, and keep muzzle flash at a minimum. Peter G. Kokalis wrote in the latest SOF how the 24" length in M24 is the wrong one and that the US Army should have installed 26" barrels. At least nowadays they are experimenting with flash hiders that increase the lenght to around 26". Any opinions on this issue ?
Is the 300 Win actually much better than 308 when taken into consideration that it has a belted case (more difficult to reload properly), it kicks more and it´s ballistics far away extend only maximum range maybe 200 meters ? My other option could be a 338 Lapua Magnum. That route would be expensive but in any case it definately would put into shadow any .30 caliber rounds if barrel erosion is taken into consideration. 30-378 Weatherby barrels won´t live long and healthy lives :-)
As my shooting would be mainly max 800 meters away is there any reasons to buy anything else than a target grade 308 Win ?
Does anyone have any experience with Major Plasters two new sniper rifle stock-systems ? Choate produces the Sniper-stock and Autauga Arms will produce the newer "aluminium-rail-plastic-shell-in -Accuracy-Internatonal-fashion" stock. Any opinions on their quality and/or prices ?
Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 06:28:15 (EDT)
To Hexa: Look for a review of Plaster's sniper stock next week, or the week after at the latest.
For your shooting needs, you'd be fine with a .308 Winchester.
Belted cases are more difficult for whom to reload?
Flash hiders do not increase barrel length. Barrels do not grow. You can add muzzle brakes, flash hiders, silencers, counterweights, or whatever you want, but barrels do not grow. In most cases I'd recommend a 26-inch barrel for long-range work, though my personal preference would be for a 28-inch barrel.
Factory rifles are "hassle free?" Indeed. I'll have to remember this.
Savage versus Remington? (Sigh, groan, gnashing of teeth... here we go again.) No, on second thought, I'm not going to get into it right now -- I've been up all night and I'm too tired to go into it.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 07:19:18 (EDT)
RE: JGS info
To Russell,
JGS Precision Tools Mfg.
Phone: (541) 267-4331
Fax : (541) 267-5996
email: jgstools@harborside.com
hour 7:30 am to 4:00 pm PST
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 08:00:57 (EDT)
Can anyone E mail me some range cards or other ballistic data for .308 Match and Ball Ammo ?
I am currently running a Reserve Sniper Class and it would be interesting to have other than German info.
Thanks
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 08:40:56 (EDT)
My Savage 12FVSS 308 is off for the barrel, receiver, firing pin and trigger work. The fellah doing the work said he would lap and mount the scope for nothing if I got him the scope.
I will be using the rifle to determine my abilities to shoot long range, as long as possible. But, the scope selection seems rather small. Price isn't an object it will just take me longer to save for it if it is the big bucks. I am interested in sniper craft not bench rest.
Is Mil-dot the way to go? Should I buy the largest objective I can get. Is a 16x mag. the limit of my needs? In other words i you were to go out and buy a scope and it was the last one you were going to purchase,(at least until mommy said you can get another), what would you buy in position? The guy doing the work says get the Weaver without MilDot.KT15.
Still enjoying the site and wife can't stop singing the backup parts to the Saddam song.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Hell town, Virginia USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 09:19:28 (EDT)
Shepherd scopes:
I've used one on a Remingtom tactical rifle and there
was only one thing that bothered me about it. The system
of two crosshairs which are to be used for fast and easy
zeroing in didn't appeal to me. One of them was horizontal
and appeared to be flat while the other one was at the angle and it all together looked crooked. The owner of
the rifle said both crosshairs should overlap each other
perfectly but they didn't. This was the first and only time I used this scope and I wasn't too impressed. Then
again, opinions vary...
varminter <goranz@muskingum.edu>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 10:11:07 (EDT)
Ron,
I agree with you on the Unertls. I use one for groundhogs
on my Remington 700, in .243. Scope is Ultra Varmint 2" 15x and I bought it used. I have a Leupold 6.5-20x44 that
I bought new and mounted on another one of my rifles and
I still like the Unertl better. For that kind of shooting
it's hard to beat. At least for me. I used some Tasco's
and B&L's scopes also but the Unertl is my favorite.
varminter <goranz@muskingum.edu>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 10:17:45 (EDT)
Steve.. you are the first I ever heard (except for myself) ever use the term "rings like a bell" when describing a rifle. For a number of years I have been getting strange looks from shooters when I talk in these terms. A couple of years ago a friend pulled the factory stock on a 22-250 700 rem and replaced it with a fine fajen wood stock. He free floated it and it rang like the liberty bell. I was standing
a ways down the range and said It'll never shoot? Rings too much! He was surprised to find a 4" group at 100 yards. I hope the mount solves it. This is of course not the only thing that affect accuracy but check your gun for ringing if there's a accuracy problem. Sheperd... Yuk!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 12:21:52 (EDT)
Torsten: Mole farts for crosswind? Clever, but stinky.
Russ: You are SUCH a smartass!!!
Tom: My recommendation is the Leupold Mark-IV 10X (M1 or M3). You won't be disappointed with this scope. There are other good scopes, however; among them is the B&L tactical (10X). I'm sure you'll get some other recommendations.
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 12:29:19 (EDT)
I read what Peter Kokalis had to say about Norm Chandler's Rifle. I have had the opportunity to shoot a Chandler rifle on several different occasions, under different conditions at various distances and I would agree that it is extremely accurate and very well made. But to say that "it is the very best military/law-enforcement long-range sniper rifle in the world bar-none" seems a little hasty. I don't believe there is any rifle that can be all things to all people. Certainly law-enforcement will be looking for slightly different qualities in a rifle than the military and vice versa. To say that this one rifle is the best in both worlds is certainly something I would not expect to hear from a man with a reputation like Peter Kokalis'.
"Thor" <doubletap@rocketmail.com>
TN USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 12:29:51 (EDT)
Scott:
I talked to my friend who has taked several whitetails with a 223, he uses FMJ ammo and only goes for head shots. That might explain his good experience with 223 for deer. He confirmed that it was to light round for a 'kill zone' shot at anything but very close range.
What about the barnes x-bullet, it is only a 53gr bullet, but it is solid copper, and is supposed to expand into 4 sharp petals, something like a broad head arrow.
I'm looking to replace the simmons 6.5-20 44mag on my 700 PSS in 223. I was considering a Shepard, then again after some comments I've heard here maybe they're over priced.
The other option I am leaning towards is the Springfield Armory 4-14x40 1st gen range finding scope for 5.56mm its price is about $200 bucks cheaper than the sheperd. Does anyone have any comments on the Springfield scopes?
Keep in mind that I'm not a 'Tactical' shooter, just want to learn how to hit things that are really far away. ;-)
The only live thing on the receiving end of my gun will be varmits (Prairie Dogs, coyotes, and maybe crows) or if I haven't bought a 308 yet, maybe a deer or two.
Thanks

Tim Baird <tbaird@telegroup.com>
Fairfield, IA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 13:40:48 (EDT)
Wow...mis a few days and look what happens!
Ok, Shepard scopes: If memory serves, these things do not have any fast and easy way to adjust for wind. Nor are they rock tough. To me, the windage problem takes them out of the picture, but hey, you all might like them. Me? I shoot in lots of wind.
Caliber choices: If you are not pushing the outer limit, there is little reason to live with the bite and cost of feeding a magnum. Someone mentioned they wil lbe shooting to 800 yards? The .308 is fine for this. Also, do not forget the newer 175 grain Sierra Match king. This projectile will stay super sonic to 1000 yards so you needn't worry about that. with the proper windage charts and elevation tables, making hits to 1000 yards with the .308 is only limited by your ability to judge wind. This applies to any caliber frankly, even fast and flat ones. Magnums only have one real advantage way down range, and it is the one that counts the most. Wallop!
Scopes: All of you who have mentioned wanting information on a decent tactical scope rejoice! There is a new one on the market. The Leupold Vari-X III, 3.5-10x40 M3 Long range. This scope should fill the needs of most everyone as it gives you great field of view AND long range magnification. It also has a 30mm tube and enough elevation to reach way out there. It also has Minutes and a BDC on the elevation turret - a nice touch. It appears to be a variable version of the Mk4 series, at least at first glance. I'll try to borrow one and review it for you all ASAP, but give me time. I'm swamped.
To Tom and Tim. I doubt, at least for tactical shooting, you will need or want anything over 10x and often will want a lot less. This is why I am so excited about the new M3 Long Range mentioned above. For varmints, I have become a big fan of the B&L Elite 4000 6-24x40mm. Very repeatable! VERY. Good clear glass. Only limitation is elevation adjustment. It cries for the Burris offset ring insert. I love this scope and as Russ can attest, did very well with it on coke can sized baby p-dogs. one of you asked about mil-dots. Yes, they are worth it. At least for medium to long range. They are pretty redundant for 0 to 200 yards.
Rick: you are right of course about breaking down the mils. I try to do this to the closest 10th, as in 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 et cetera. I simply can not resolve them any better with my eyes. My point above was that even if you can not do this, break it down to 10ths, and a lot of guys have trouble at doing this at first, the mil-dot can still get you with in 15% even if you screw up. I belive the ideal was to be able to range via the Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball to with in 15%, so the point may have been moot. But if the shooter simply, well, sucks at range estimation, even a novice can get close with the mil-dot reticle.
Good topics all guys! Great to see the new "faces". and Russ...GO REMINGTON! Hahahaha.
Scott <xring>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 15:07:09 (EDT)
Torsten: You just mentioned the Probis! I recall seeing this back in the late 80s and thinking, man, I have got to try this thing! Then, all mention of it seemed to disapear. What is the deal? Can you give me any details on this scope? You mention it was actually a Tasco? Are you saying that the current SS10x42 is actually a rehashed Probis? This wouldn't surprise me all that much as many of the lenses out there seem to come one or two glass grinders! Business is funny that way. I cna walk into any store and find the same shoe wiht about a dozen different brand names on it. Guess the optics industry is not much different.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 15:16:28 (EDT)
Russell: I hope your pet peeve over the grand old .45 Colt is a result of it being called (incorrectly) the 45 long colt and not from a bad experience with the cartridge itself. I have found it to be quite versatile and one of my favorites for a general walking around gun out in the brush here in Alaska. Also I need to make some comment about your statement that freezing the scope mounts should eliminate most tendencies for thermal expansion problem. I agree that treating the mounts in the same way you would treat the rifle is a good thing, but the real problem is in the dissimilar metals (aluminum) of the scope tube and the rings. Also I have not heard if it is claimed that freezing changes the thermal characteristics of the steel. I would have to believe that steel will still expand when it gets hot, stress relieved or no. Is the freezing process reported to change the hardness of the steel? I ask because I am thinking the resulting finer grain structure would result in a better edge holding on knife blades, as long as the hardness was not compromised or the brittleness increased. Thanks again for the great forum for discusion
Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
AK USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 17:22:23 (EDT)
Thank you for the start up conversation on scopes and reccomendations to my questions.
I do have one further ?. The bench rest shooters seem to reccommend 16X or better scopes with with big optics. The tactical guys, which I want to be when I grow up, reccomend 10x or less even when espousing 1000yd(or meter) shots and 40mm objectives.
Thanks again,
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
hell town, shock USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 17:22:45 (EDT)
Multiple dot-reticles for longrange shooting.
Some years ago I ordered a multiple dot-reticle with the 8 dots placed verically to represent bulletimpact for each 100m from 100m to 800m. I used the 200m 1 moa dot as center in the reticle. (100m 0.25moa dot for zeroing the rifle above center) The dots from 300m to 800m were made to cover 5" at each range. This fitted just inside the head on the targets we use. It works on the face on live targets as well especially if they wear a helmet that has a uniform size. This is the fastest rangefinder I've ever used. I just put the dot that fits the head on the target I'm going to shoot at and pull the trigger.
The scope I used was a german Pecar 12X45. I know Premier Reticles has made similar reticles for Leupolds.
This type of multiple dot-reticles works best with scopes in the 12X to 16X powerrange. Just make sure you have enough field of view.
This system is better in harsh climates because you don't have to have the turrets exposed. Any scope, no matter the brand, will fog sooner or later if the turrets are not covered with caps.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 18:18:15 (EDT)
I'm looking to replace the Scope on my 700 PSS in 223. I am leaning towards is the Springfield Armory 4-14x40 1st gen range finding scope for 5.56mm.
I've heard a lot about Leupold, and plan to put one on my 10/22, but I haven't heard much about Springfield's Scopes.
Does anyone have any comments on and/or experience with the Springfield scopes?
Also keep in mind that I am not a 'Tactical' shooter. I doubt that my life will ever depend on the quality/durability of my scope.

Tim Baird <tbaird@telegroup.com>
Fairfield, IA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 18:32:24 (EDT)
Torsten said "Any scope, no matter the brand, will fog sooner or later if the turrets are not covered with caps."
I bet Leupold would beg to differ regarding their Mark-IV M1.
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 18:56:17 (EDT)
I'm new to this site, and I am really enjoying it. Keep up the good work!
Now, not being very knowledgeable about high-powered rifles, benchrest shooting or sniping, I'm mostly sitting back and watching. BUT, I've been playin' with pistols for a long time now, and I will occasionally chime in about them, as things come up. One comment---forgive me if I've allowed the "window of opportunity" to pass on this one, or if I am keying in on a passing comment in an old post:
In a post dated 16 April, Scott made the statement, "the 92 is a very fine pistol." NO IT IS NOT! I agree with the statements he made regarding caliber---if you're using good hollowpoint ammo, there's not a great deal of difference in lethality among most common military/police pistol rounds. HOWEVER, being an active duty Marine with a lot of pistol-shooting experience, and some firm opinions on the subject of the 92/M9, Iet me just say that it is NOT a well-designed combat pistol.
For one thing, the locking blocks break. EVERY TIME you need a 92, the locking block will break. I've gotten so I expect it. I drop the hammer, something doesn't feel right, I turn to the RSO and say, "get the armorer, my locking block's broken again." Seriously, no exaggeration, of the first 6 M9s I ever shot, the locking block broke on 5 of them. This is not a construction flaw, as some of these were actually Tauruses---it's a design flaw. A proper military sidearm should not fail that way, time after time. My dad bought his first .45 in 1963, as I recall. It took 25 years of shooting, at least, (and Dad shot quite a bit) for that weapon to seriously, mechanically fail, and when it did (lug broke off the barrel!), he was genuinely surprised. He was a gunsmith, and he said he'd never seen that happen before. (He had, conservatively, over 80000 rounds through it when it broke.) I would not trust my life to a pistol which has the history with me that the M9 has.
I also don't like the cutaway, top-ejecting slide, or the fact that gravity will pull dirt and sand INTO the action of the pistol during operation, if it's not perfectly clean.
The sights are acceptable, for a military gun, and of course, a 15-round mag capacity is never a bad thing.
I don't like that you have to make a conscious, seemingly unnatural effort to flip the safety "off" (any concerns about accidentally taking the weapon off safe should be addressed through training, not by dummy-proofing it). I have bigger hands than most guys, and I STILL find it difficult to smoothly sweep the safety off on the M9 without shifting it a good bit in my hand. Well, come to think of it, that's inherently NOT smooth! I've come up from the ready before, attempted to sweep the safety off smoothly as I was coming up, aimed in, and been unpleasantly surprised to find that when I squeezed---MUSH! Safety still half-on! THIS IS NOT THE WAY A COMBAT PISTOL SHOULD BE! This does not happen to me with my .45. Poor ergonomics--and I have a big hand, as I said. Most guys (who aren't serious pistol shooters, anyway!) use their left hands to manipulate the safety, but I refuse to do so---damn it, I shouldn't have to!
OK, enough of the soap box. Keep up the good work, gents! Semper Fidelis!
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
St Marys, GA USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 19:06:45 (EDT)
Matt:
The only pistol I've ever seen break is a 92, though I've seen plenty of worn .45s. I'm no fan of the 92 either.
As for your comment about the "RSO," I gather that you've been assigned to embassy duty. I've got a cousing who is with DS. Great agency. He's not had to go overseas yet, but has been working on his law degree in D.C.

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 19:46:57 (EDT)
Torsten,
I found a great little program on the internet that will do all kinds of ballistic data for you. It is called PCB and I found it at http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~oddske
It is free and it works for me. It is a small program that runs in dos and I have tried it on several old
computers with no problems. It has a large bullet list that you can edit and add any bullet you want to. It will calculate any bullet trajectory and wind drift at any range you want it to. and it is very simple to use.
Download it and tell me how you like it.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 20:46:29 (EDT)
To Russell: I agree fully with your advice to Ralph reg. a long range rifle; the .340 Weatherby is hard to beat. As long as you are not going sheep or goat hunting in the mountains with a lightweight rifle, why not go all the way and get all the performance you can out of your rig.
Your project gun, the 338/378 sounds interesting.Keep it coming! Tell you another time about my pet project.
To TorF: I have enjoyed reading your comments from the Scandinavian perspective. I have been many,many times in Norway and know your country well.
To Hexa (Heikki Hesasta): You have some very good equipment
right there in your own back yard: Sako and Tikka rifles,
Lapua brass and bullets, Vihtavuori powders). You will not go wrong with e.g. a Tikka M595, heavy 26" barrel in .308 Win., original Sako/Tikka scope mounts. By the way, they sell for Cdn$ 700 here, which is about half the price you can get them in Finland. Doubling the price of the Tikka,
you can get a Sako TRG-21, and you are home free.

Hans
BC CANADA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 21:43:37 (EDT)
Russell
Wish I could make the shoot, but I'm in the middle of a course that has a schedule detroyed by weather and "Post Police". They have closed all ranges and training areas for a week except from 1800 to 0600. Needless to say this has us working re < odd hours.
Shepard Scopes = tent pegs!
Any system that requires you to hold a mythical empty expanse of glass for both elevation and windage as a primary sighting system has problems. On second thought not tent pegs, too fragile. Broke a reticle system first day of a test shoot! That is why those reticles don't align!
We keep an armorer on the range every day in our pistol course to fix broken M9s. We put about 2000 rounds through a weapon each course and they almost all break!
Mr. Bain - You will get a callous from the H&K. You'll know what I mean when you get through with your shooting, but have fun and for goddness sake stay safe!
Love that 45 Long!!!;-)
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 22:59:55 (EDT)
I have a technical question, that while not high power, one of you might be able to help me with. I would like to hear from someone that has used an external applied tuner to change barrel harmonic zero node to tune for specific rimfire ammo. I am shooting a .920 fluted barrel, double lugged and full length bedded, 18 3/8 inches long. I would like to mill the mating boss of a standard 1in scope ring, ream the inside to .920, take a fine thread bolt and nylock nut, mill dovetail cuts so the nut will fit the Weaver mount, and install the ring with the nut below the barrel. Adjust the bolt to change the barrel harmonic. Does anybody know where I might contact someome that has done something similar. Thank you for the intrusion. Les/Fla
Les Snyder <lasnyder@grouper.pasco.k12.fl.us>
New Port Richey, Fla USA - Wednesday, April 29, 1998 at 23:54:09 (EDT)
Mr Bain:
Not embassy duty, security forces at a Navy SSBN base. At least we actually make an effort to remain proficient with weapons here, which was all too uncommon in the FMF! !
I'm with you, by the way. Never seen a stock .45 break, or have much serious trouble at all. And if we absolutely HAD to go to 9mm, I can name a dozen right now that would've been a better choice than the M9. Personally, I'm happy carrying ANYTHING designed by old John Moses B.
Now, a question for the board: I will eventually have a .308 built on a Czech Mauser action, custom-built but not unusually "tricked out." I don't have any HP rifle experience to speak of, but I'd like to learn to shoot this thing at long range--as long as the rifle can handle, that is. What do I need to know, and how do I get started? My biggest handicap is probably that I don't have a 1000 yd. range available in my area, as far as I can tell. I'm open to any and all advice or suggestions, so have at it! (I know if someone asked me a question like this about pistol shooting, I wouldn't even know where to start, so I figure this might be a lot of run for some of you.) Don't worry, you won't bore me with your answers! Thanks.
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
St Marys, GA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 00:11:33 (EDT)
Russell-- So you work part-time for Armalite. I'll expect a good deal when I round up enough cash for an AR-10T......
Seriously, keep up the great work while I wait patiently for the new Leupold Vari-X III M3 Long Range to make it out on the market. By the way, I'd like a couple of sources for FFL equppied dealers to get good priced Leupold scopes.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, KS USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 00:14:24 (EDT)
Rick: This is not the first pistol course with the H&K USP. I have gotten to enjoy that raw, chafed feeling afterwards. Maybe it comes from working for several years at a large national law firm for a bunch of a--holes.
As for calloused hands, well, I've already got those! It comes from excessive short-stroking. And no, I don't mean with a bolt gun! See the first paragraph.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 00:30:26 (EDT)
To Ron: Thanks for the JGS information (also found it in my PS magazine, but still, "thanks.") I fired off an E-mail to them and I'll see what they can do for me. I'm probably going to have to buy the reamer. Drat! Hey, anyone else want a big boomer? I'll rent you my reamer at a fair price.
I'll get arguments from Leupold die-hards, but... I'd get the Burris mil-dot in the power range of your choice. I'd go for a 16x maximum for "real" sniping. I bought two -- an 8-32x for my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum and a 6-24x for my Savage 110FP Tactical. If you research last month's archive, you'll find a link to a posting on rec.hunting that might "open your eyes" (pun intended) on rifle scopes.
Glad your wife likes the Saddam song. I posted it here as soon as I heard it. Cracks me up!!!
To Thor: On the S.O.F. article on the Chandler rifle, I've read and reread it now, and... I have a big problem with the "brazing the mounts to the rifle adds .5 MOA" claim. I feel this is a pretty bold claim. Not to impugn Lt Col. Chandler's fine reputation, but I would have to take issue with him. (I've pissed off generals before, so I suppose I can handle a Marine Lt. Col., too.) I would agree with the larger base screws, but a ".5 MOA" improvement -- as an "average" -- in groups? Well, I smell snake oil somewhere. Brazing or welding bases to receivers is nothing new (Savage used to do this), and there's no argument it makes for a solid mount. However, if your non-brazed mounting is that sloppy that brazing adds THAT much improvement in your shooting, then you've done a piss-poor (yes, Virginia, it IS a hyphenate) job of mounting your scope in the first place. I also agree that such laudatory remarks by Kokalis are also quite... um... "amazing," considering his experience. Still, I have no doubt that the rifle shoots pretty darn well.
On the new Leupold scope Scott mentioned: Yes, it's a fine scope. Contact your real estate broker and/or bank for the latest mortgage information. As for the Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 6-24x scope... Scott and another Sniper Country Council member talked me into getting one -- and now I have four (three 6-24x models, one 36x model). They are, simply, the best scope for the money, bar none (and not just because I say so). And as Scott knows, I do use the Burris offset inserts to compensate for the scope's internal MOA elevation adjustment. On my .308, I use a .020" insert in front and a .005" insert in the rear, easily allowing me to handle 50-yard shots out to 600 yards or more. On my .338/378, I'll be using a .020" insert in both the front and rear rings; with a zero of 46.1 inches "high" at 100 yards, with moly-coated 300-grain Sierra Match Kings at 3,000 FPS muzzle velocity, I'll be 0.5 inches "low" at 1500 yards.
To Dan: Yes, my "peeve" is with the (incorrect) ‘long' designation of the .45 Colt. Actually, I love my SAA in .45 Colt, and nothing feels more "right" than a Colt SAA revolver. I'm an anachronism -- I should have been around in the 1880s. Oh, well. Yes, metals would still expand and contract with heat and cold, respectively, but the stresses introduced to the parts during the machining process would be eliminated, and I think any changes would be only marginal at worst. Dissimilar metals would not concern me unless the gun in question was in an environment conducive (chemically or electrostatically) to "welding." I think normal gun maintenance would negate such problems in most cases. Mark Stouse of BlackStar could offer more commentary on this subject; you may want to drop him a note with your comments. I think, at least in a small way, this area bears further consideration. Certainly, I've never seen it addressed before.
To Tom: Tactically, much of the concern is mirage. For benchrest shooters, with (typically) closer distances, (usually no greater than 300 yards/meters?), 36-power scopes are the norm. Tactical shooters (the smart ones, anyway) like going with scopes having 40mm objectives to facilitate a lower mounting position on the rifle which, in turn, allows for the shooter to maintain a lower profile during an engagement. Large objectives are becoming quite the fad and, as Scott will tell you, this just isn't necessary for most sniper-related shooting. Big optics might be desirable for varmint shooting, but the tactical concern is the (usually) required "heads up" shooting posture.
To Tim: I may get take some heat on this, but on several occasions (and I mean, "several") I've heard negative things about the quality of the Springfield scope. Tactically speaking, I'd consider something else.
To Matt: I don't like slide-mounted safeties either. I own a Taurus PT945. It's got the frame-mounted safety feature that I like, like the Government .45, but it also has the decocker feature I like as well. I can carry cocked-and-locked if I choose, but if the gun is already cocked and I use the decocker, the lever flips back to the "fire" position allowing me a double-action shot if necessary. Personally, I'll never buy a gun with a slide-mounted safety. My FEG PA-63 Makarov has a slide-mounted safety, and I can live with it, but I bought the gun for the size, function, and price -- not the safety feature. And for what it's worth, Matt -- even though I qualify "expert" with the M9 (who can't?), I prefer a .45 to a 9mm, and wish we'd never gone with the M9. It was a case of NATO ass-kissing, if you ask me. And, always faithful to you too, Matt.
To Mr. Bain: Unless I'm wrong, I believe Matt meant "Range Safety Officer" by his mention of "RSO." If he meant something about embassy duty, then it's a new one on me.
To Steve and Torsten: You folks need to stop surfing the ‘Net and start surfing this site. We already have the ballistic software that you mentioned, Steve, available here.
To Hans: I gave up my wish for a .338 Lapua Magnum when I saw the possibilities and advantages (gunsmithing) of the .340 Weatherby Magnum... but then, I saw what the .338/378 Weatherby Magnum could do. I'd wanted a .338 caliber rifle ever since I read Shadow Over Babylon (see the review on this site), and the rest is history (except for my current reamer problem).
To Rick: Sorry you can't make the shoot, amigo.
".45 LONG COLT???!!!" :-)
To Les: I have no experience with "bloop tube" rimfire shooting, but your idea probably has some merit. For what it's worth, I've had similar ideas concerning the alteration of barrel harmonics so, if you think it's a worthwhile pursuit, go for it.
Again, to Matt: Except for mirage and wind, you can practice 1,000-yard shooting with properly scaled targets.
To "Manhattan Matt:" Hey, pal, I had to pay for my ArmaLite too! Special deal? Okay, buy NOW and get a TOASTER! (Note: California is proposing a law that would ban all of our ArmaLite toasters, so get yours NOW!!!)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 02:06:58 (EDT)
Scott, Phrobis Scopes !
I got my scopes initially through Wes Harris of Mc Millan Rifleworks. It was around Desert Storm time. The scopes were made by tasco, and i think that after the deal went tits up tasco took over the tooling and kept going without the patented cant lever. I have had one on my Mauser 86SR since then until this year shot show were i picked up the new M3 long range with a mil dot. The Phrobis/tasco scopes held up real good and the one on the Mauser got beaten up pretty bad and soaked a lot of times.
Last i heard from Phrobis was something about a beefed up 92 slide and then a Knife for the Seals? No Idea what is with them now. PS I still have three Phrobis scopes (offers anyone ?)
Sheperd !
just saw that Sheperd has their site up and running look for it at shooters.com.
Surfing !
Sorry Russ, I am so far away from you guy´s i get lost now and then. It seems to get better though as i become part of the family
See ya, Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 03:19:58 (EDT)
To Russell: Thanx for the articel it helped. Also living in california i wouldnt be surprised if they tried to ban those fully automatic Armalite assult toasters(something about bread rights activists)anyways my big ? is w/all this talk of barrel countours what do the #'s mean like how does a #4 compare to a #7 does it vary beetween companies?
#2: Has anyone come up w/an anser to the balistic solution 'o' the month if so will any be posted?
Keith Kacmar <Kacmar@thevine.net>
Saugus, CA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 03:27:45 (EDT)
Where do I get instructions for adjusting the trigger pull on a Remington Sendero? It's pretty good now but I'd like to know the proper way to adjust it if necessary. I've heard that it is beneficial to put a small pad in the stock at the base of the barrel where it mates to the receiver (supposedly to provide support that is lacking). I have one in 7mm Mag that will group 3 shots under an inch at 200 yds, not with handloads mind you, but regular green box 150 gr hunting ammo. Why mess with success, but if the barrel needs more support than I'll get it done. Thanks.
Frank Kent <fdkent@usonet.ne.jp>
FPO, AP USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 04:38:45 (EDT)
To Keith: A #4 contour, compared to a #7 contour, is more slender. The larger the number, the heavier (thicker) the barrel. I don't know that it's a "hard and fast" rule, but most companies seem to be very similar in the way they define barrel dimensions per specified contour.
Responses to the Ballistic Solution of the Month will be posted when there are a sufficient number to make it worthwhile to do so. To my knowledge, a satisfactory answer has not been submitted. I don't think Condor is going to make the scenario much easier, so it's going to require someone to put some serious thought into the problem.
As an aside, I'm inteo soed in finding someone who will machine some special bullets for me. I probably need a machinist with CNC equipment. I can supply a suitable grade of brass bar stock, and I'm willing to discuss cost. I can provide the specifications upon request to anyone who is SERIOUSLY capable of performing the work. Further, I'd like to go offline (or even have a chat on the phone) with a chemist who is knowledgeable in polymers. A background in metallurgy would also be desirable.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 05:11:29 (EDT)
To Jay Williams:
I'll stick to my experience:
Any scopes with turrets not protected by caps will fog/fail sooner or later in the field.
A scope with open turrets are much more vulnerable in the field because you will bump into things turret first. The Leupold Mk.4 M1 will not last long on a extended patrol. The The Mk.4 M3 is much better due to its lower profile. You can avoid this by usiscopelieable QD-mounts ofcource.
I prefer a sniperrig that can hold zero and shoot .75moa after weeks or months in action rather than a frigile greenpainted .25moa varmintrifle.
BTW: I'm TorF from Norway, Torsten comes from Germany
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 08:03:52 (EDT)
Tim: On Springfield Scopes. This subject comes up, usually right after we archive the Roster! I believe it was discussed previously, but I’ll go into to the short of it again to save you time. Springfield scopes are ok. Not great, but OK. I’d look else where first personally. My problem, and I must stress the "MY" in that statement, as others will surely disagree, is first and for most the objective size. For a scope specifically designed for tactical purposes, the friggin’ front glass may as well be a high beam with a flashing "come hither neon sign" blinking in the sun. I much preferred the Springfield when it had a 40mm objective. On the flip side, the scopes are fairly clear, but not outstandingly more than any other. I do like the internal level feature, and for some purposes the reticle design is kind of neat, but the way it grows or shrinks depending on power may bother some. I’d personally prefer to see the reticle scale accurate at only one power and forget trying to keep it accurate at all magnifications. This may be my American upbringing as I understand a lot of European scopes have this feature and they seem to get along fine with them. I do not like these as the reticle subtends quite a bit of the target at close range. The eye relief gets pretty short also when you dial up on the Springfield. A buddy was so unimpressed by this scope that he sold it two months after mounting the thing! In short, for the money, there are equally good optics out there that are stronger, clearer, brighter, of better quality and with a smaller and less beacon like objective. BUT, before making your decision, try to look through one. You may find you really like it. With my opinion and $0.99 you can buy a Whopper at BK.
Tom: Benchrest types like the high magnification as they need to see the bullet hole, even at 200 yards. They are shooting at a very small bullseye and even go as high as 36x or larger! The tactical shooter doesn’t really need all this magnification and the limitations that accompany it. Tactical shooting does not require this level of visual acuity. Also, these very high magnification scopes are seldom "ram tough". One reason you see fixed 10x (or even less) scopes in the military is that you can make them very strong so they can stand up to the abuse they are going to receive. Weight is also a consideration. Those big scopes aren’t light, nor are they small. They can be real liability to a guy who might have to hump 40 to 80 pounds in addition to his rifle. Russ also mentioned the scope height issue. The big glass buts the shooter way above the center of the bore and makes him expose his tender little noggin unnecessarily.
To give you some idea of how well a power as "low" as 10x works, let me illustrate it this way: When shooting on a human shaped steel target at 800+ yards, we could easily see the impacts. At the other end of the range scale, even the 10x was way to much magnification as you lost all field of view. I guess this is why I am becoming so enamored of the 3.5-10x power scopes.
Matt: I can not argue with anything you said about the Berretta. My comment on it was, admittedly, not very descriptive of my personal feelings for the 92. Simply put, I personally hate it. But I didn’t want to start a web war with Berretta aficionado friends of mine. I would still say, that for the civilian shooter who is going to shoot only a few 100 rounds a year, the 92 is a fine weapon, equal to other less than personally desirable firearms I can not afford... That is not to say it is an excellent weapon, but it will do for their purposes. For me, the 92 ill fits my hand. Sort of like holding a brick and trying to manipulate oddly placed controls. Of course, I am a lefty so I could make the same claim on the Sig line also. I do not much care for them either. (ooh boy! Here it comes! Let the wars begin!) Of all the handguns I’ve owned, I have found the Browning Hi Power and the Tanfoglio line of CZ clones to fit me best. Also, I have, through shear good luck I suppose, have never experienced any operating problems with either, at least through about 5000 round so far.
Scott
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 08:58:41 (EDT)
Thanks again. B&L here I come. Please oh please don't hurt my bank account, momma's watching.
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Hell town, shock USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 09:09:10 (EDT)
Scott,
Fair enough. I guess for the average pistol shooter who doesn't spend a lot of time on the range, and just wants to put some rounds downrange once every couple of months (for his own enjoyment, not in competition or anything), a 92 will do. I can see how, as a lefty, you'd have some problems with a lot of pistols. I also admire the Browning HP, although I'm still a die-hard 1911/variant devotee, when you get right down to it. HP in .40 is a nice gun, good cartridge, good magazine capacity (especially in this day and age!), well-made, shootable (better if you buy some aftermarket parts that deactivate the magazine safety.)
I own a SIG P220, and although I don't like the height of the barrel above your hand (too much muzzle flip with hot loads), I generally like it. But to each his own, definitely. Whatever you can hit with, preferably quickly. I'm also a Glock fan, if you are well-trained enough to handle carrying a weapon without a manual safety. This might be a gun for you---at least you don't have to screw with a safety that's on the wrong side of the pistol, for your hand! But I know a former undercover narcotics cop who shot himself in the gluteus maximus (read: butt cheek!) while practicing drawing his Glock from inside his back waistband, so beware! It's not for the faint of heart, or short of practice. Thank God he wasn't carrying in front, huh?
Semper Fi!
Matt
Matt <m45ac-@gate.net>
St Marys, GA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 12:43:01 (EDT)
Funny you mention the Glock. I have one. I do not use it. Still new in box. Maybe someday I'll play with it, but I am pretty happy with my current handgun.
Funny you mention the mag safety in the HP. Royal pain in the **s! Could there possibly have been an over abundance of lawyers even back in 1935? Removing it was the first tihng I ever did to a handgun. I jsut can not imagine how you'd shoot an IDPA match with one installed. So much for speed reloads! At least that is my memory. The mag would only drop a little and hang up form the pressure of the mag safety. Screw empty mag retention! I want a fresh mag, like NOW.
The Sig seems like a good handgun, but very user unfriendly if you happen to be a south paw. A friend has about a dozen of the things. My experience is the same as yours where muzzle flip is conserned.
I hear form a Berretta rep that a redesign is in the works for the grip shape on the 92. This of course will not help its other faults, but again, for the average Joe who shoots occaisonally, this should be most welcome. I know guys with big hand who still have to cock the gun sideways to reach the controls. At least the new 92G has a spring loaded decocker. The F model can mess you up bad if you do a tap-rack-bang and accidentally nudge the decocker. SqueezeSQUISH...oh SH**!!!
Do you have any experience with a 1911 in .40 S&W? I prefer double stack frames personally, but with this new round I keep looking at the 1911 design again.
Matt <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 13:50:41 (EDT)
PRIZES: Folks, we have some new prizes that are not yet listed on the Hathcock event prize list. Autauga Arms has kindly donated a tapered one piece Tactical scope mount valued at about $150. Eagle Industries also is giving a drag bag/shooting mat AND a scope cover set. Stoney Point has provided some target turrets to go on the Leupold scope. And finally, for those of you woh attend the match, as spectators or competitors, I secured a commitment for event T-shirts to be made. These will be sold at $10 each and again, all the money goes straight to the Hathcock's. Sizes are XL and XXL. If any are left after the event, we will offer them through the emporium.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 13:57:09 (EDT)
OK, not to be redundant, but I feel this needs to be made plain:
I AM NOT A TACTICAL SHOOTER!
No offense to the true 'snipers' who frequent this site, I both admire and envy the skills they have accuired to do that job, and live to tell about it. I am interested in learning about and practicing long range marksmanship. And while I want good clear quality optics, I'm not in a position to shell out $1000+ for a high end Leupold.
Russ:
What were the quality issues?
Scott:
Opps, you'd think a guy who makes his living with computers would be sharp enough to figure out there was more info in the archive. Thanks for the heads up, I searched through it, but I still have some questions/comments.
Springfield still makes two scopes in 40mm, a 6x fixed for 7.62 and the 4-14x40 variable for 5.56 that I'm considering.
Doesn't a sunshade or 'honeycomb' device eliminate the problem with the reflection?
I had a chance to check out the 4-14x40 5.56 at a gun show, it looked like a nice scope for the money, $340.
On the subject of the changing reticle size in the Springfield scope. I thought that indicated a front or european reticle. Which I heard is supposed to hold zero much better than a rear or American reticle. Because the only thing that can thow off zero is the front lens. I got this info from the sheperd scope video. They use a dual reticle which will show if rear reticle moves off zero, good idea/design, but if quality of the product is poor its junk and what good is it.
Can anyone give me the low down on the B&L Elite 4000 6-24x40mm dealer cost/retail prices? Also does it have BDC or should I condiser taking a laptop with PCB on it to the range to help me calculate the wind/range adjustment. ;-)
I really apreciate the info you guys have given me, I just don't want to be confused with a real 'tactical shooter', I'm not nearly that good.
Thanks
Tim Baird <tbaird@telegroup.com>
Fairfield, IA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 14:22:00 (EDT)
Russ!
I have made some monolithic Match Bullets for the 12.7x99 .
Mc Millan sold them for a while. I still have plenty of bar stock. We are using a special composition that was figured out by MEN (Metallwerke Eliesenhütte Nassau) a German Military Ammunition Manufacturer. They had a Blueprint in a Gun Mag and took all measurements out, but left the Material designation. Whoops!
The 780 Grain Coffins have a .2 Grain variation.
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 15:25:47 (EDT)
Well you guys have seen more broken Beretta's by along ways than I. I have seen many other pistols break so I assume I must have some experience in the matter. I might suggest that the agency you guys are working for. (My Uncles part time business I assume) could be overloading the system. Gallery guns? I must assume . Shoot anything at too much pressure too long and it will break. All I ever used were my own loads. I did suspect years ago that the ammo NATO and the US was using is too much hot for the 92. The CZ is good but it might also break if over taxed.(don't start a war cause I love CZs em). There is little tactical advantage over a .45 with the 92 or M-9 or any other 9mm and i would always prefer the .45 in a knife fight. Carefull of the Glocks there boys!I thought I had found the ultimate weapon till it started Misfiring. I could not trust one sorry. It was a nice Idea. Until someone decides to overload the system I will still take the USP., Maybe if we could just get 15 grains of Red dot in that .45 case we could find out just how weak that USP is? (don't try that one at home kids!)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 15:39:02 (EDT)
8x30 Steiner´s
I just read the review, and if these are the same 8x30´s the German Army uses then I can only agree with your opinion. If´ve used them now since 83´and they have not failed even under the worst conditions.
The Military sells some of them out of their depot stocks every now and then. I boughts some awhile back and took them over to friends in Florida and Nebraska and South Afrika, they love them.
If any are up for grabs in the future I´ll post a note.
You should have them landed stateside for around $250-280.
Condition on is issuable with only minor wear signs.
Can anyone get me a Sniper Training and Employment Field Manual. I only have the TC 23-14 and a USMC S/S TM
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 15:48:42 (EDT)
Bill,
Misfires on a Glock ? Did you oil the firing pin / striker?
Hydrostatic pressure is to high with oil in the striker channel. This causes the most misfirers on Glocks. Thats why they use this Copperlube. Use a disk brake cleaner on the channel. It should work fine.
I have done extensive testing on slide velocities and slide to frame impact since 92´ using a Phillips Tectronics Analizer. We fit a Piezzo unit in the rear sight dovetail and fire the pistol in a ransom rest. You get a nice curve with acceleration and all in G´s.
The 92´s slide impacts at around 1920 G a Glock slide bounces into the polymer frame at around 150 G. A 1911-A1 smashes in at 4500 G.
Tests were made under Nato AQAP 4.
Torsten
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 16:00:50 (EDT)
Tort... The glocks were .45s and all seemed to have the same problem as far as I could tell. I don't oil much on handguns. Wipe it off if I do immediately but trouble was one of case length and firingpin velocity as it varied with
distance from the primer. Primers were also a consideration.
I must say that most good factory ammo (unfired previously)
worked fine. The problems was curable in most of the guns but... the fact that it existed in the first place made me
want to change guns. No kidding I loved it except I could never trust the system after that problem. Had a 17 that never caused any problem but when I took a hard look at the sys it just scared me away... thanks for your help.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 16:49:30 (EDT)
sorry Maurius the word wrap is fine it is me hitting that damn enter key that causes the carriage return just an old habit that's hard to break.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 16:54:11 (EDT)
Coefficient of expansion differential, steel vs/aluminum: Let's put some real numbers to this and see if it is a real concern. The coefficients of these two materials are:
Aluminum, .00001244 per degreee per unit of measurement
Steel, .0000063 per degree per unit ""
Ned C. <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 18:36:10 (EDT)
OK, let's pick back up where we were when my no-good ISP kicked me off the net!
SO, this means that aluminum grows .00001244 inches per inch of length per each degree F that it's temp is increased, and steel grows .0000063" under the same conditions. Now we have only to multiply these figures by the actual length in question by the actual temperature differential. I can't say that I have ever checked my receiver with a pyrometer after firing several rounds, but for the sake of argument let's say I was really blazing and the average receiver temp in the area between the rings is 170F. That's pretty hot, and it's 100 degrees more than when I mounted the scope (say it was 70F). In this little story, let's keep things simple and say the scope hasn't absorbed any of this heat and is still at 70F, so it's not going to grow in length from when it was all put together,and the rings are 8" apart. That's the only dimension that matters, the rest of the receiver can expand all it wants, but this is the only area that will affect the spacing of rings. So, we have a 100 degree differential in temp and an 8" ring spread. Coefficient of expansion for steel (.0000063) X 8" X 100F=
.005, 5/1000 of an inch. That ought to be enough to make something happen, but this is a pretty extreme example, and remember the expansion is along the axis of the bore which would probably give a minimal effect. Also, the scope body is a thinwalled tube, so it can't "try as hard" to expand along it's axis. Depending on how well it's locked into the rings, the linear expansion might just take the path of least resistance and manifest itself as a slight bulge in diameter. Heck, even if the .005 movement occurred 100% sideways, .005 in 8" amplified to 100 yds comes to 2.25", which I realize on this website is a mile, but just to illustrate the point. My conclusion for what it is or isn't worth, is that this is one of those theoretical bugaboos that are nice to keep around in the unproven state so that we have a place to lay the blame when something unexplained happens!.
Ned C. <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers,, MI USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 19:00:39 (EDT)
Here's another aluminum vs/steel expansion scenario, and maybe this is what the gentleman who first mentioned it was thinking. You mount the scope on a 100 degree day. Ten days later you must fire a critical shot at 40 below! Another outlandish situation, but let's do the math and see...
The difference in expansion between the two is .00001244 minus .0000063 =.0000061 (thousandths of an inch per in of length per degree F). The rifle and scope are now 140 degrees colder than when they were mated, same 8" spacing....that's .0068", call it seven thousandths. One rock solid conclusion from this scenario: you're going to freeze your turrets off!
Think about this (it doesn't mean anything but think about it): when you have your barrel cryogenically treated, if it's 24" long, it gets .056" shorter, almost 1/16", when it's down to 300 below!
Ned C. <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 19:14:21 (EDT)
RE: Thermal Expansion (longish)
Since we are one the subject of thermal expansion, let me send parts of an article I had published in Precision Shooting Magazine a number of years back. Back then P. S. was strictly benchrest oriented, and parts of this submission may not apply. I exported these documents from a DOS program into ASCII text and then retrieved them into Word. Cut and pasted them into your list, hope everything formats correctly.
Ron N.
Aluminum (7075 T6) expands .0000130 inch per degree Fahrenheit, per inch length. Steel (4140) expands .0000065 inch per degree, per inch. Now these coefficients do not remain the same for all temperatures ranges, so I've selected values that generally apply to shooters, and for our purposes they're accurate. What does all this mean? Our scopes and receivers are not expanding or contracting at the same rate when the ambient temperature changes. Stress has to be building up in the scope-receiver interface, as the temperature changes. If a scope was mounted (6 inch ring spacing) in 40 degree temperature and shot on a 100 degree day, the scope would grow .0046 inch, and the action would grow .0023 inch, the difference being .0023 inch. The two items are spaced apart by the height of the scope rings, which are levers multiplying any force and effect. Can we ignore these forces?
Let me toss out a few thoughts, and maybe others will respond and give their ideas.
1. From time to time we all experience loss of zero, could it be from this stress?
2. Does the scope slide in its rings from this force, or are the two locked together causing a bending of the action or scope. If the
action bends, your barrel will be aligned in a different place. If your
scope bends, you'll be aiming at a different place.
3. This stress may be relieved at the first shot when movement of the action helps overcome the friction in the rings, i.e. first shot out of the group after not using the rifle for a long period of time.
4. Maybe the differing tension between the two causes the rifle to tune or resonate differently at different temperatures, i.e. the rifle wants a different load later in the day.
5. Maybe one of the mounting rings should be dusted lightly with powdered rosin and tightened securely, and the other dusted with graphite and brought up tight enough to eliminate any play, and no more.
6. All things considered, using a Unertl type scope (on the action), may be the best way to deal with such movement.
7. A steel scope on a steel action, and an aluminum scope on aluminum action, would be better than mixing metals as we do now.
----------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Nosack,
Came across your article in P.S. and thought I would pass on a comment or two.
You are so right about the expansion of different materials, of course we all know the common spring thermometer uses the bi-metallic spring for just this reason.
Some years back my friend Manley Oakley from Seattle was shooting his unlimited at the Nationals with a Redfield 3200, a long target scope with solid mounts and internal adjustments. His mounts were 10 plus inches apart on a Hart #4 big action. He was doing very well but noticed his point of impact on the target was getting lower, which of course was no great problem until during a match in the afternoon when bingo a shot 1-1/2 inches out- the scope had slipped in the mount. He decided the 3200 was not a practical scope and got rid of it.
Another shooter in the Seattle area, Bruce Stallard made an unlimited rifle on his own action, and based on Oakley's experience made his own scope mount system with just one ring about 1-1/2 to 2 inches long as I remember. It worked just fine. Then Manley Oakley tried just using the front ring - that is all he uses and I might add he shot a .16xx 100 yard Sporter agg. this summer at Tacoma with 1 bad group that was over .300 inch. Not too shabby with only 1 ring!
I think your thoughts on the front ring being tight and the back one loose is a good one, and I don't believe one could go wrong in trying it. I have some teflon pipe thread tape that is wide (1") and will give it a try in the near future.
Best Wishes,
Allen Bench
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 19:57:13 (EDT)
Bill,
Well, personally I've never had any trouble with my Glock 17, shooting a wide variety of ammo, which is WAY more than I can say for my Beretta(s), so I'm much more of a fan of the Glock. What can I say? To each his own.
You're right, NATO 9mm is hot, and that undoubtedly beats up the guns excessively, but do the Brits have this problem with the HP? I don't know, but my gut instinct is that a military gun shouldn't fail this way, period. For that matter, I've shot a couple Tauruses on which the locking blocks broke, and they hadn't been firing military ammo. Regardless of the causes, it just shouldn't be happening. And as far as gallery guns, well, the problem is that you never know how many rounds your pistol (gallery gun or not) has had through it before you, so how can you possibly have any confidence in it? I took my own, brand-new locking block and barrel to the Mediterranean with me, and would've replaced them both before carrying my M9 into a dangerous situation.
I can't remember hearing of a stock .45 just flat-out breaking. Maybe it happens, but personally, I'm more inclined to trust a .45. I've been shooting them for years, have owned several, Dad owned several more, and the only major mechanical problem I've seen was the aforementioned broken lug (after many, many tens of thousands of rounds).
Haven't handled a full-size USP, so can't comment on it. Have shot the Compact in .40 S&W, and thought it a pretty good factory gun. I'd have to shoot it a lot more to evaluate it. For one thing, I'm just biased against HK, so I'd have to really shoot the heck out of one to get past the bias and fairly evaluate it.
Scott: re: .40 S&W 1911s, no, I haven't shot or handled one, but my boss owns a Para-Ordnance in .40, and really likes it. Hey, why not?
OK, out here.
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
St Marys, GA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 20:21:50 (EDT)
This page is good for a lot of things. You guys are about to make a believer out of me on that 92 /m9 thing. I would feel really dumb lying there with a broken gun after I've been warned by so many good people. Old Brownings guns are always good. Frankly I would not have believed I would ever forsake them for some plastic hi tech marvel. I hope the USP is going to be worthy and I will try it till I know better. I'm not likely to carry any handgun to a prefuneral exercise anyway but it is nice to know. And all readers are a bit better informed we hope. My 17 never let me down either Matt. I just like the creature comforts of the USP for now at least.... This month is a text book of good stuff. Thanks SNIPERCOUNTRY. You are the best page on the web or am I being reduntant again?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 21:38:44 (EDT)
Russell: Since your in good with Armalite, why don't you get them to hurry up and deliver my AR-15 lower and parts kit w/NM trigger. I was told it would take 4-6 weeks to deliver! What gives? If they need some more part-time help in the machining department, I do need a summer job..... There's only so long I can wait for my new toys before it really begins to hurt!!!! Seriously, I'm happy to hear business is doing so well. I've only heard good things about their parts and I can't wait to build up my DCM AR-15.
As far as the current handgun argument, I own one of each of the formentioned guns. My favorite has to be the USP .40, although I will always be partial to the 1911 design. For casual plinking, any of the guns will be fine.
Matt: Never having shot 8000 rounds through my Beretta, I have not ran into any of the problems you describe. (Although I don't doubt them.) My main problem with the design is the poor barrel to slide fit which affects accuraccy like you wouldn't believe. I miss the bushing from the 1911. If you've got any way to fix this problem, let me know(and throwing the Beretta off a cliff is not an option.) :)
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, KS USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 23:48:20 (EDT)
In case someone doesn't check out the Emporium, I need an M-84 scope for my Garand. Any leads would be helpful...
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, KS USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 23:50:46 (EDT)

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