April 1998

To Rick: My consideration in choosing a scope had very little to do with rangefinding capabilities. For 1500-yard shots, mil-dot reticles would be quite difficult to use in determining accurate distances. After consulting with other extreme long-range shooters, I have decided that my best affordable method for determining ranges beyond 1,000 yards will be by using a topographical map. My experience with such maps is, well, rather extensive -- so I don't think there will be any serious problems in using them to determine distance to a target. Someday when I'm filthy rich (?), I'll buy one of those NAIT laser rangefinders that are good out to 2,000 yards. I agree with you, however, in that shots under 1,000 yards can easily and accurately be ranged with a mil-dot scope. My preference for using the stadia reticle, if I'd had that option within my budget, is founded in the fact that I like that particular style for making shots. I really like the LightForce scope's stadia reticle -- in fact, about the only thing I don't like about the scope is it's size. Reticle selection is most likely a personal choice based on experience and utility. Thanks for writing, Rick.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 05:19:01 (EST) 

Randy Stoddard <atoz@galstar.com>
Ponca City, Okla USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 06:09:41 (EST) 

Keep in mind I'm new to tactical shooting and the Stoner, I've only had about 500 rounds through the
rifle, and the first match was also the first time I'd tried it past 100
yards. I'm still trying to nail down the balistics and wind drift estimations, so I hope
I can improve my consistancy in the future. If anyone else has a SR25, I'd like to exchange
email on experiences, accessories, loads, etc.
 

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 17:35:31 (EST) 

To Russell: Speaking of the NAIT rangefinder, I saw one (supposedly only one outside of military) for $8000. Let me know if you need it that bad.

Nathan & Michael: Welcome to the club. I graduate in May with Criminal Justice degree. It's the paradoxal EXPERIENCE that counts (kind of hard to gain experience when no one hires you because of your lack of experience). I'm currently in the local Sheriff Department Reserve program, and interviewing at the rate of about once a week. Best Wishes on finding employment.

Need to find:
Gibbs M-85 bipod- tore apart Shotgun News looking for one. Any help locating one would be appreciated.
Tactical Scope- ECONOMICALLY priced tactical scope needed to top my Savage 110FP. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks for any help, and continue to support Sniper Country. Great site with great info.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Kansas USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 00:03:55 (EST) 

Try VV N550 powder for 308win.

I use Lapua 170gr LockBase FMJBT, BC.540, on top of 48gr VV N550.

MV in my Rem 40XR is 2750fps.

Accuracy on 100m: .5 MOA.

This is not benchrest accuracy but in real life at long ranges this round outperforms any 168gr/175gr Sierra/2600fps combination.

VV data can be found at www.lapua.com

TorF
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:09:35 (EST) 

The NAIT model I'm referring to is much less than $8,000.00, but thanks for thinking of me.

I bought two M-85 bipods at the Indy 1500 gun show a couple of weekends ago, for $60 a piece. They are available from Model 1 ("Imports?"), some outfit in Illinois (up around Chicago, I think). They had an advertisement in Shotgun News or Gun List -- I can't remember which. If you do a Deja News search through the rec.guns and rec.hunting newsgroups, you'll probably find an address and/or phone number for them. Or, if you want, drop me a line to my E-mail address, and I'll get you a phone number. (Maybe someone else reading the Duty Roster has a phone number for Model 1 that they could relay to Matt.)

As for an "economical" tactical scope, I think you first need to tell us your idea of economical. However, you'll probably want to go with the Tasco tactical model (see the Reviews page).

To Sniper Country's Law Enforcement Visitors: Let me say how nice it is to have you here with us, and I hope you'll return often.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 03:12:12 (EST) 

Again, thanks for the load data. What brand (and model) of press and dies do you use to handload your ammunition?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 06:27:24 (EST) 

Lapua makes two different 170gr FMJBT bullets. One is a regular FMJ (D46 or 47?), the other is the LockBase VLD. I'm still at work... I've got my data at home. Another interresting load is Lapua 168gr HPBT Scenar/ 45gr VV N150. Harald Stenvaag used this load to become a 300m 60 shots free rifle UIT world champion with a perfect and unbeatable score of 600p. Thats a 60 shot group inside 10cm (4") prone unsupported with peepsights! Imagine fireing the 60th shot with 59 X'es on the electronic monitor... BTW. I'm a sniper, hunter and competitionshooter. I think most people are consentrating too much about benchrest accuracy and not about real life hitting potetial. Most "sniper rifles" are rigs for the shootingrange. The are definently not designed for a 2 week patrol behind enemy lines. I only use rigs with detach scopemounts that can shoot a 5 (cold)shot group inside 10cm at 300m (4"/330yds). The 5 shots are fired in 48 hours from different positions. (bench, trench, prone, sitting with supported back, etc) Scope detach and reattach between shots. Cleaning rifle after 3rd shot. After the rifle is sorted out you need to look at other things that improves hitting potetial at live targets. Most forgotten is time of flight. Most "sniperrifles" in this routine will not be able to keep up with a WW2 M98K sniper or a H&K G3 with S&B 4X22 scope/H&K mount.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 07:52:05 (EST) 

Mattias <mattiasbroden@hotmail.com>
Norrk÷ping, - Sweden - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 07:53:05 (EST) 

Bolt Action versus Semi-auto: This argument holds little water in the modern day of the semi-auto. I still prefer a bolt gun for tactical use, but I can no longer claim the bolt gun superior in all things. Bolt guns will consistently outshoot service grade semi-automatic rifles, but they will no longer outpace gas guns of MODERN design by any great margin. Modern design. That is the key word. We are not talking about M1 Garands or M14s with their large moving internal mass. The AR15 based gas system has little moving mass to upset the rifle during the firing process. I am not surprised to see the SR25 do as well as it does. A good AR15 competition rifle or space gun will easily shoot benchrest quality groups. We are talking sub half moa. There is a very good reason why you see so many ARs on the line at High Power matches and it has nothing to do with "whimps" or new kids who can not handle recoil from "real" guns. These modern gas guns are simply extraordinarily accurate, easy to shoot, and hard to beat in the hands of a pro. So yes, the new semi-auto designs could easily become the standard on the battle field as an SWS. They have several advantages over bolts in that the user does not have to expose himself due to movement after firing, nore is he limited to a small magazine. He also can better defend himself if, God forbid, he is ambushed or tracked down. Try fighting off the raging hord from 15 feet with a bolt gun. It is not recomended. The semi-auto shooters main consern is the flying brass cathcing someones attention and also not letting his discepline falter and allowing himself to start plinking merrily away until he runs dry. Also, maintenance is a slightly more time consuming endeavor, but not prohibitively so. A trained shooter is going to maintain his weapon for near flawless operation no matter what its design. For now the bolt rules amoung the major forces more because they have spent time and money developing those systems. They work wonderfully so why replace them at this juncture. But eventually, as the systems age, I could easily foresee new gas gun designs taking over. Accuracy is no longer the problem, nor is availability. Mind set has more to do with it than anything. Like I said, I prefer a bolt gun for tactical shooting. That means nothing in terms of the suitability of the gas gun.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 10:31:35 (EST) 

Scott, Everything you said about semi autos is correct for match shooting. We have yet to find a semi that holds zero after an extended stalk and stay in the field due to debris in the gas system. This includes the SR and AR. That is why the bolt gun remains our primary SWS. We can't afford to lose accuracy after a movement through terrain that has fouled the weapon. Watch the line at those meets and see how those weapons are babied. And rightfully so, they are there to win and not to sneak around like kids. Properly camoed and flying brass is not a problem, properly camoed and snared brass is a problem. It will be a while before semis are used for other than area sniper weapon systems. As far as self defense, the SWS is bagged and an M4 is carried for self defense. The SWS is bagged for two reasons, one no base of fire comes forth from a six shot bolt gun. Two, SWS means sniper and that means at any range you are a primary target and attract very unwanted attention, trust me on that one!

Steve, The Mil calculations require a calculator only if you use the inch method. Use Height of target times 1000 divided by mils. This gives you range to target in the units used for the height of target, ie height meters range meters, height feet range feet. This works quite well for head to groin 1 meter miling on average size man, 2 meters for doors, tank height, cannon length, whatever. Add to the fact that with round 3/4 MOA mil dots you can break the mils into 10ths and with the premier 1/4 mil footballs you can break mils into 1/8ths. The Mils also allow for holds for wind, 1/4 Mil is slightly less than 1 MOA, Leads for movers out to whatever your gut and ego allows. 300 meters is usually where wind lead combo begins to ruin the ego but 600 meter movers are more than possible with training. Holds for elevation is a matter of ballistics as is a mirror hold with 700 meters on the gun, and neither the true stadia line scope nor a duplex will ever permit those holds. Yes I have worked with all three extensively with military, FBI, Secret Service, and a few other agencies. The Mil Dot is not a sacred cow it just simply works in the field under the conditions that I must work in and without a calculator, they do break at the darndest times!!!

Guess this got longer than I intended. Love these conversations though. Keep the knowledge flowing. Love this site!!!
Rick <RBowcher@AOL.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 22:50:27 (EST) 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 00:41:40 (EST) 

I've got the same problem as you.

Sierra 175gr is the best for 8X57IS.

One can only hope that Sierra will make an 8mm 200gr MatchKing HPBT. (they've made a MK for .303 )

I've shot a M98K converted to 8X68S. MV with Sierra 220gr SPBT was 2900fps with HEAVY recoil.

Most M98K's in Norway are converted to 308win or 30-06.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 08:45:09 (EST) 

http://www.armament.com/clean.htm

Not planning on doing anything else over the weekend, are you?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 10:38:50 (EST) 

"We have yet to find a semi that holds zero after an extended stalk and stay in the field due to debris in the gas system. This includes the SR and AR. That is why the bolt gun remains our primary SWS. We can't afford to lose accuracy after a movement through terrain that has fouled the weapon. Watch the line at those meets and see how those weapons are babied. And rightfully so, they are there to win and not to sneak around like kids."

I have to take exception to that: I do not 'baby' my SR25 at the match! We do not have the mats, gloves, cute little chairs, etc. that you see at the high-power matches. What we shoot is what we pack to the 1000-yard line and back. We don't cancel our matches on account of rain or because we don't like to get muddy, my near-record score was shot in the middle of a downpour. When the targets pop up and I have 40 seconds for 3 shots from a standing start, I don't ease that big, black rifle down, it goes down NOW!

OK, I'll admit, even then the matches are not comparable to a field stalk for putting stress on equipment. (Though I understand at least a couple of SR-25s have made the course at Storm Mountain.) I haven't deliberately dropped my Stoner on a rock just to see what would happen, but I'm willing to believe it might not take that treatment as easily as a well-constructed bolt gun. Do you have more details about what kind of problems the SR-25 experienced and whether or not their source was identified?
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 14:31:46 (EST) 

Sorry man didn't mean that as an insult to your style of shooting. I had heard so many "paper shooters" talk about the accuracy they can get with their semi autos that I do become defensive. The great M21 debacle and the fight in 85-86 to get the bolt gun SWS off the ground has me sensitive to the subject.

We do try semi autos, we have worked the M21/25, AR, SR, H&Ks SWS, the Galil SWS, and several others, all lost accuracy in a field environment after an airborne insertion, travel through variuos terrain siuations and an extended stalk. Period in the field ran from 36 hours to 5 days. The problem is changes in barrel impulse as the weapon becomes dirty. Normal field cleaning does not solve the problem. This is why we are requiring only 600 meter accuracy with the sniper support system. We are looking at it in terms of defensive fire, and secondary supporting fire in a target enrich environment. I know only too well the limitations on a bolt gun that cannot lay down suppressing fire, nor can you hold terrain with the weapon. Choices are run or DIP.

The SR and AR are both fine weapons and there are other fine weapons out there to be used by shooters. In the tactical world I live in I MUST trust my weapon and until proven diffrently that weapon will be a bolt gun. Remember, you can operate the bolt as fast as you want to while you have to "wait" on the gas to operate the bolt on a semi.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:18:44 (EST) 

Are you implying that you can be on target and ready for a follow up shot before the bolt on a semi-auto cycles? If so, you're a lot faster than I am (which is quite possible). My Stoners (Match and Carbine) definitely keep ahead of me!
Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Gig Harbor, WA USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:51:36 (EST) 

To Rick,
I never said that the mil-dot method didn't work, I just
find it slow and complicated.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Target is 2 yards
tall at a range of 775 yards. Now lets see how the answer
works out with your mil-dot method. 2 yards * 1000 = 2000
ok so far, I didnt need a calculator for that. thru the scope the target appears less than 3 mils high but greater than 2 mils high. so I carefully estimate the size of the little footballs and imagine that they are laying on top of
each other up to the span of the target, and i guess that
the target spans maybe 2.6 OR 2.7 OR perhaps 2.55 mils
now tell me quick, what is 2000 divided by 2.6 without a pocket calculator.
Now lets take a scope that I like. A weaver T-10 with a duplex reticule The thin opening measures 9 1/4 inches exactly at 100 yards. I look at the target and find that
it fits the thin opening perfectly and I say to myself,
height 72 inches range = 720 meters.
Familiarity with all things breeds competence. I will take you at your word that you can esitmate range without a pocket calculator with the mil-dots. Most of us can't though, unless the range just happens to be at a convienant distance
Oh yes, you are quite right about the mil-dots being useful
for wind hold offs also. I forgot to mention that in my earlier post.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H, Ohio USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 19:18:10 (EST) 

Steve, I'm so happy your range happened to fit right in your duplex. Unfortunately that seldom occurs in life. Also a better reading on the hieght would have occured for you had you stood the "target" on top of a football. If it reached the bottom of the third football the height would of been 2.75. If it was below the football then set the bottom of the target on the bottom of a football and estimate how much it is above the second football or below the half way point, which ever is nearest. This will give you a much closer estimate of the Mil height. Just as you have memorized certain key elements of you reticule, we do the same in conversions. It also helps that our Mil Dots are in 3/4 MOA round dots, this permits Miling in increaments of tenths which is also easier. As has been said before, it is what the individual is used to and trained in that is easiest for that individual.

Keep the discussions going and share the knowledge, this is how I keep my old mind from rusting!
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 20:44:17 (EST) 

HELP!
I have received reports that the Army is no longer using the M25 and that SOCOM has recalled all SR-25s. If you have information on either issue, please e-mail me directly.

Thanks,
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere The Good Ole U.S. of A. - Saturday, April 04, 1998 at 19:43:58 (EST) 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 22:36:08 (EDT) 

Beats me. I thought it dragged!

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 03:12:03 (EDT) 

Semi-autos: I agree that traditionally, the semi was not the way to go for long term accuracy. My previous comments do have some back ground in High Power, true, but with a properly built AR system, sight changes seem rare, or I have not abused my to the same level as Rick. With a free float tube, true heavy barrel, and proper powder, the AR has been pretty totally reliable in my experience. As I said earier, drop an M21 from 5 feet and you are out of business, drop an AR from higher and it generally will not notice. I am talking a purpose BUILT rifle here, not a rack grade system, although they hold up fairly well. Long term fouling is an issue in any system, but as we are talking about sniper systems, it is realistic to think a dedicated sniper will not clean and maintain his system religiously? If the AR gas tube ever get so bad it needs replacing, it only takes about 5 minutes to do this job. But again, with modern powder, the tube doesn't really foul.

Rick said:
"We do try semi autos, we have worked the M21/25, AR, SR, H&Ks SWS, the Galil SWS, and several others, all lost accuracy in a field environment after an airborne insertion, travel through variuos
terrain siuations and an extended stalk. Period in the field ran from 36 hours to 5 days. The problem is changes in barrel impulse as the weapon becomes dirty. Normal field cleaning does not solve the problem. "

My question is, were these rack grade service rifles or weapons built for the sniper role? Also, if they were sniper systems, how often were they cleaned by the users? As an infantry troop, I let cleaning chores go for longer periods, but I can not think of any sniper who would dare do this unless totally stressed in a target rich and dynamic environment.

Anyway, I would agree that the day of the semi has not arrived yet. But it may not be that far off. Like you Rick, I STILL am a bolt guy. I just like to consider the alternatives.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 15:38:40 (EDT) 

All weapons were dedicated to the sniper role and built specifically for that role. While they are getting better we still have problems. Cleaning a weapon after a stalk into view of your target is not an option, you must shoot what you have in hand. We have protected the weapons every way possible and still had problems. The big thing right now is that one time there may not be a shift or problem and the next time or two there will be a problem. I just can't risk that time or two. Cleaning the weapons is a constant ongoing process and yes we can be fanatical about it. Again it goes with the territory.

I will admit that if they show me a semi that will stay up then I'll be glad to shift over. As I said, defending yourself with a six shoot bolt gun .308 or four shot Mag, is just a little tiring and wears on the morale.

Come on guys if you know of a good semi let me know, the SO arena is still in test phase for a new semi weapon.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 15:54:19 (EDT) 

Gil, if you'd take some time to write to me, I'd be glad to give you some ideas about other references you may want to consider. I'd also direct your attention to our Bibliography page where you'll find (and this is NO joke) the best source of sniper-related references anywhere on the Internet. And I assure you, Gil, Mr. Bain works very hard to keep it that way, as do other members of our staff, such as Garry Blosser.

Thanks for your comments, Gil, it's good to hear from you.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 02:52:41 (EDT) 

Things I learned @ recent advanced sniper school

1. Ghille suits are impossible to wear in blackberrys.
2. Mil dot scopes hard to read in dark.

Keep up the good work.
Joe R <ReissJ@co.cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, WA USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 10:02:48 (EDT) 

To all Fuzzy Triggerpullers.

Don't forget that you are in the middle of a Wad of Tinder when wearing the G-suit. And war tends to be a unpleasant season with fire etc. .

I have fireproofed (retarded) all my Ghillies with a solution available here from manufacturers of Curtains Seats for Cinemas etc. With the fire codes the way they are in the US you should get this type of stuff pretty easy.
Spraying it on with a flower/garden type pump spray bottle works fine. I add a little olive cloth dye to the solution so it is easier to see which part is treated. It also gives a new Ghillie a little used look.
 

Our Sniper code is ATN 300 10 86 is this NATO standard ?
I now the Marine Corps is diffrent. Any Nato Snipers out there ?

Horrido !

Torsten PS I really liked the Egg in a Ghillie
(Kiwi)
Torsten Erning Ofw.d.R. <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 13:18:42 (EDT) 

Today, I bought an ArmaLite Action Master in .223 Remington -- this is the kind of flat top model I've wanted for so long.

Also, I'm going to be in Wiesbaden, Germany, during 13-27 Jun 98, and it'd be nice to have a beer with some of you "EuroSnipers" if we can manage to find each other.

Oh, heck. Now I need a scope for ANOTHER rifle. Woe is me. Hey, prairie dogs, anyone?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 15:51:52 (EDT) 

Parks lays out in one page the real story behind the Hague Convention, "dum dum" bullets, and sniper-use of open tip bullets. The arm-chair law of war experts can sit down and shut up; Parks has spoken!
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, , Anywhere, USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 18:31:10 (EDT) 

Steve: The idea of a fouling shot, or anti fouling in this case, is not to smart a proposition as you may only have ONE shot in a lot of situations. For the cop, this is always the rule. A soldier may have more leeway, but counting on this is fool hardy, whether with a bolt gun or a semi-auto. Granted, a snuffy can just nail the enemy with a body hit and go home, but you still want that first shot reliability.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 20:40:16 (EDT) 

Regards,
Hans, BC,Canada
 

Hans
BC Canada - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 01:53:54 (EDT) 

Keep me informed on your Wiesbaden travel agenda.
Will you be in the North as well ?
If you are active or reserve Mil. then I may be able to get you on a shoot with us. Scoped G-3 , G-36, and Mauser 86SR.

Good Hunting

Torsten
Torsten Erning <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 08:42:12 (EDT) 

Was called out on 040598 2230 hrs for barricaded w/m who had slashed his daughter's face and arm with a broken dinner plate. Suspect fled in vehicle and a pursuit initiated. Roadblock was put in place and the suspect drove his car (85 G.P.) directly @ Deputy who was outside his vehicle on shoulder. Deputy drew and fired 2 rounds from Smith M59. First round hit bumper (cops always shoot 1st round low for some reason) second hit hood/windshield without penetration. Suspect struck Deputy, breaking his leg, and returned home.
Suspect residence is built over a garage. Has a sliding glass door and one window to North, no windows/doors to East, 2 windows to South, 2 windows and door to West. Master bedroom in NE corner w/slider and balcony. secured a position across the street to the North, 47 yards out. Suspect observed to change clothing 3 times in 5 hours. 2 additional sniper teams arrived @ 0200 hrs and were assigned SE and W sides. All within 100 yds. Power and phone terminated. 4 man swat team on East wall, 4 man team on West wall. Negotiations continued until 0640 hrs. Suspect
surrendered. This is my third callout to this residence since 1983. Suspect has two prior felony assault convictions on family members. Beat wife in face with house brick, fired 3 rounds of 12 ga inside residence during a family beef. Facing 2 counts of assault 1 (attempted murder)... We have a "3 strike" rule in this state. 3 serious felonies and you get life. We'll see.
As we were securing, suspects wife approached me and complained that we took too long, didn't want the team to go in the house to confirm it was cleared, and was angry that we turned the power off. I advised that her tax dollars were at work! Stay Safe/JR
Joe R <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 11:02:29 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 11:30:11 (EDT) 

Bullet: 500 ibs DSFS.

Powder: 1000 ibs M8M

MV: 7200fps (!!)

Accelleration: 13000g

Have fun: http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/GeraldBullInfo.html
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 16:34:39 (EDT) 

Does a recoil compensator inherently affect accuracy? My father enjoys going to the range and shooting my Savage 110, but the recoil is too much for him. This got me thinking about comps and their affect on performance. Does anyone have any experience with screw-on type compensators?

Anyone have any advice on bipods for the Choate/Plaster stock?

Need advice on a new tactical scope (Under $500). What's a good choice?

Russel: Thanks for all your advice and comments. Much appreciated...

Thanks for any input.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Kansas USA - Wednesday, April 08, 1998 at 21:54:57 (EDT) 

I've also been a fan of Gerald Bull's work for many years. I followed his career while he was alive. Quite a guy. I miss him. Truly a man of vision. (I wonder if there's any correlation between my admiration of Gerald Bull and my fascination with powerful rifles and handguns. Hmmm.)

To Joe R. : Sorry about the deputy's busted leg. I can only hope that the offender gets what is coming to him. I'm rather sensitive to issues of domestic abuse, and it would make my day to learn that "Mr. Brick-in-the-Face" receives some, well, uh... attitude adjustment. On the matter of recycling bolts -- I am reminded of the comments by several professional hunters who say that the NUMBER ONE complaint they have about most of their clients is that the latter tend to want to admire their shots. Understandably, when dangerous game is involved, standing there admiring your shot is not well advised. I don't have this problem, and tend to recycle as soon as the previous shot is away. You might consider range practices where the officers are penalized when the targets don't go down. You'd need to be sporadic with this type of training, so they got the idea that they're supposed to keep shooting as long as the target is up. I blame Hollywood for the idiocy of today's youth, because too many times it only takes one shot to make the bad guy "go away." Real life is not like that, as in my favorite (reference) case of the doped up robber who took 18 rounds of 125-grain .357 magnum slugs before falling over. His blood was "orangeish-green" because of all the chemicals he'd been dumping into his body -- LSD, PCP, and God only knows what other initials, too. Of course, you could always shoot at your officers until they learned to recycle their bolts -- but no doubt your department has a policy against this. They'll learn. Or they'll die. It's pretty simple.

To Matt: Scope, Tasco Sniper (see our review). Compensators can ruin accuracy though this is not often the case (they reduce felt recoil and/or muzzle flip. Anytime you hang things off the end of your barrel, you're tempting the gods. What I will say, though, is that I have used muzzle brakes with great success and am quite pleased with the reduction in recoil (read, "pain"). For your Choate stock, I'm happy with my M-85 bipods, but you might want to look at the Versa-Pod (see our review). When the weather in my area permits, I'll get a review done of the Choate/Plaster stock.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 03:42:58 (EDT) 

Go to Tankers forum/messtent.

The topics about about tankguns tankammo and ballistics are exellent.

The website has a good design for discussion, deviding them into topics.

Heavy Metal: http://www.airfax.com/tanks/
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 03:59:38 (EDT) 

Joe R. I use a cleaning rod to the hand of any student that doesn't cycle immediately after shooting. Of course the army does have slightly diffrent training parameters than LEA. Only kidding, practice and competition works the best. Especially with the A type personnality necessary in the LEA community. Use multiple targets and very short time periods. If you have access to a KD range with pits, then place a head sized target on 2x2 that is long enough to expose the target above the butts. raise the target randomly over a 5 to 7 meter front and give the shooter a 3 sec exposure. After three seconds drop the target, move to another location and raise the target after 5 to 7 seconds. This will get their attention when a penaly in incurred for each unfired round and or miss. Use your imagination for penaly. Loser cleans everybody else's kit is a start.

Steve, a fouling shot is not practical in our line of work. Also the build up of junk is not in the barrel and a shot could actually make the problem worst.

Scott, A 2x converter may not be a good idea. There are problems incurred with the teleconverters, such as increased mirage distortion, focusing problems, and your 40 will become a 20 with a quartering of light transmittance, thus a very dark field of view. I really reccommend against the use of the of the 2x teleconverter.

Keep the discussions going guys, I love this site!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, April 09, 1998 at 22:34:41 (EDT) 

It was mentioned that a few users of the ACOG report that the reticle tends to look like it is "flapping its wings" -- that is, that the outer left- and right-most extents of the horizontal line can appear to move up and down (with the center remaining "motionless") if the shooter moves his head while peering through the sight. This is not a "design flaw," but was the result of how the issue of parallax was addressed. The point of impact and point of aim are unaffected by this (possibly) perceived "flexing," and the shooter, once properly trained to ignore this flexing (if he or she even notices it), can VERY quickly engage a target with first-round hits. According to the ArmaLite catalog, the TA01 reticle is red at night.

Anyone having any experience with the ELCAN, what do you think of it?
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 03:15:19 (EDT) 

I competed sometimes against the US Shoting Team from Fort Benning.

One of the US teammembers I met was a former sniper.

He had served in Vietnam.

He told me that he sometimes used a rifle in .25-06 and that he had kills with it.

Any comments?
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 09:14:42 (EDT) 

It's slower than the regular MRP.

It is designed for overbore rounds like 30-378 etc. (It's probably used in the factoryround)

Should be great in .25-06, .264WM, 7mm STW, etc.

Have not tested it yet.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 09:23:47 (EDT) 

Nathan, thanks for the tips, and, of course, I am planning on being the best (insert job title here) when I get hired on in an agency first. I enjoy long range shooting and was pretty darn good at it as a Marine, and will pursue it further whether or not I get on a SERT team. Prarie dogging is a State Sport in Eastern Oregon. But a .338 Lapua would be overkill... Anyway, I am learning a lot from the site and am letting my schoolwork pile up beside me while I peruse this site in particular. Good luck in OK at Muskogee PD.

Has anyone had much experience with the H-S Precision rifles? How does the company rate? How do the rifles rate?
Michael Roberts <psu00712@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Vernonia, Oregon USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 13:27:58 (EDT) 

Please include rifle type, modifications if any, caliber, load data, and scope type. Wind data would be helpful if you have it.

Thanks all. You can consider this a group project and I welcome all useful input.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 14:43:19 (EDT) 

One shot one kill is to denote accuracy, not necessarily the mission of the sniper. Yes, under most situations once the sniper triggers he must get out of the AO due to the attitude problem he usually creates in the gentlemen that are left in the immediate area of his shot. However, there are times when a target rich environment just begs for more shots. Also snipers also do odd things, such as support for the offense and the defense. This requires multiple target engagement. Remember, contrary to many movies, the sniper is not some sneaky ninja that runs around on his own. He supports the command's missions and those missions are varied. Thus the sniper's missions are varied. While the bolt gun has the edge for specific targeting at long range, the semi has the edge for many missions that are mid range and are "area" in nature, ie offense or defense.

I know guys I've been saying that the bolt gun is the gun but read back and I have mentioned the area sniper weapon. Many have the mind set of the sniper ambush only. The sniper mission is direct action in support of the commander's goals with an equal mission of human intelligence in support of the unit's S2. This is why one gun fits all does not work properly and a multiple gun concept is being used so the sniper can select the SWS required for his particular given mission.

Isn't it fun to argue both sides!!!!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, April 10, 1998 at 23:27:14 (EDT) 

So, what does it all mean to you in your quest for skill and accuracy? If your rifle can shoot .5 moa off a bench, you should practice to the point that you can at least match that in the field. It is not always possible, but that is your goal. The AT1-M24 I used at SMTC could easily shoot .3 or .4 moa all day from the prone at 100 yards. But I was seldom able to match that at range in the wind or rain. I could come close, say .5 to .8 at any time, but execpt for those few rare moments of a steady wind, outshooting the rifle would have been impossible. If you shoot police oriented tactical scenarios, you want to be able to keep your shots into the size of a quarter at 100 yards from various supports. In any condition. That is a reasonable expectation. If you shoot military courses of fire, you should be able to make body hits to 1000 yards. Whether you are shooting a 5 inch group at 800 yards or an 8 inch group becomes somewhat irrelevent. The hit is the thing. Bad guy might care if you took his leg out or his arm or his pulminary system, but all you care is that he is out of action and either dead or too screwed up to carry the fight to your comrades.

My advice, for what it is worth, is to shoot at ranges over 400 yards as much as possible. Verify if your rifle holds sub moa at those ranges and if not, figure out why. I say to practice at longer ranges because it helps develop a sense of precision you do not get at shorter ranges. If you are limited to a 100 or 200 yards range, shoot at the smalest target point you can resolve in your scope. It will force you to slow down and concentrate.

Last thought for the day: If one shot one kill was the ONLY goal, we'd all be shooting single shot falling block actions. Rick has it totally right. The MISSION is the thing. It dictates all else.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, April 11, 1998 at 20:19:06 (EDT) 

Hans
B.C. CANADA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 04:23:16 (EDT) 

Now, a lot of guys will come forward and say, "my out-of-the-box Savage, Winchester, or Remington can do that or better." I say "maybe." Many of these shooters with "wonder" guns base their measurements on 2-3 shot groups, or fail to measure their groups from the centers of the bullet holes. And many, in my opinion, are liars. These are the same guys who caught huge fish, bagged many-antlered game, etc.

So, one might say, "my rifle can shoot as good at the Armament Technology rifle and is much less that the over $3,000 [well over] that Bain paid for his rifle. Why waste your money?" Simple, your rifle won't last as long as the AT, it won't retain accuracy as long as the AT, and it won't take the abuse that the AT will. Recall that the Marines took out-of-the-box rifles to Viet Nam in the 60s for use as sniping rifles. They found that guns could not withstand the climate or the use.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:07:55 (EDT) 

Regarding the technique of firing a shot to clean the barell
before actually engaging a target in a tactical situation, I
must say that I believe it to be a very dangerous idea.

In a tactical situation, the sniper relies on surprise more
more than anything. You also must consider yourself to be
under observation AT ALL TIMES.

Fouling in a barrel is reduced by putting electrical tape or a
plug over the end of the barrel as a pre-combat check, and
by routine maintainence.

Also, why waste that round? If you insist on firing a fouling
shot then why not aim it at your target anyways? You might
just truly foul someones day.

SWS MAINTAINENCE IN THE FIELD:

Comments were made to the effect that a sniper should relentlessly
clean his weapon in the field. This has not been the case in
my experience. Every effort should be taken to ensure its going
to stay clean in the field (i.e. tape the end of the barrel, a removable
rag under a freefloating barrel which can be pulled out to remove
debris before establishing your FFP etc).
Further, the weapons generally are very reliable and can function
well with minimal care.

Also, the type of care a sniper weapon should be given when it
is given a detailed cleaning is a consideration. One should use a
one piece rod and different types of solvents and oils. This
is hardly acceptable in a tactical/field environment.

However, a sniper teams security concerns make stopping for
frequent detailed weapons maintainance an unwanted event. The
team does not have 30 infantrymen to post OPs, secy patrols and establish
a perimeter while they pull maintainence.

I am not saying its never done. But it is a task to avoid
if possible.

Keep it simple in the field. You are there to kill bad guys.
Don't confuse rifle range or competition tasks with the real
thing.

Then again, what the hell, its just my opinion.

Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:40:50 (EDT) 

Saw an article concerned about a Tasco scope with no space for
a screw in sun shade, suggesting using an anti reflective
coating. Good ideas for a real issue.

For us poor folk though, a set of womans nylons pulled over
the end of the scope helps alot, is more affordable, and alot
more fun to obtain.

This is an excellent web site and forum. I appreciate the
opportunity to participate and have already picked up some
good ideas.

Thanks to everyone.
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 13:59:28 (EDT) 

On the Powell River Labs stuff: These folks are making miracles! Their developments are VERY interesting. Sadly, I can not afford their products or I'd have reviewed them for you by now!

Mr. Bains AT1-M24: Folks, there are no over the shelf rifles capable of this kind of accuracy. Not consistantly. This is what you pay for when you go with a purpose built rifle made by a top notch armorer. My PSS has printed groups in the .3s occaisionally, but not consistantly. Bain's AT1-M24 will do it all day as long as you do your part. As in all things, you really do get what you pay for!

Jeff: Good points all! By maticulous cleaning I was refering more to general inspection than actual bore chores. I would think that snipers tend to be gun cranks where as regular infantry just clean when forced to and have no intense interest in precision shooting or the required maintainence. But you are totally correct stating that daily cleaning is not possible. I can honestly say the the above mentioned AT1-M24 went 600 rounds before I got around to cleaning the bore and it never suffered more than a 1/2" change in zero. Most of the "cleaning" was simple wipe downs, scope maintenance and checking the barrel channel. I simply didn't have time to clean the bore. I'd rather let a bore go dirty than use a field issue segmented rod.

Sunshades: Butler creek now offers a thin version Tenabraex's KillFlash as the SportFLASH. It costs about $15. Also, it appears that TASCO now has a built in sunshade.

Fouling shots: My own opinion would be they are never acceptable or realistic. As was pointed out to me recently by Rick, the problem with the semi in a military environment is all the crude that can jam between the barrel and the gas tube, or the barrel and the free float tube. It would seem that the only answer is to have a completely exposed barrel with an aluminum or composit stock spaced well away. Not sure how to handle the gas tube. Expect any barrel shroud to fill with gunk during the stalk. Finding a fix for this should prove interesting. Till then, it seems unlikely that the semi will take over as the primary SWS. Were I a cop though, it would be the only system I'd carry. A semi makes a lot of sense for LE.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, April 12, 1998 at 21:53:13 (EDT) 

Don't let the understatement fool you. Scott will out-shoot most around.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 01:33:17 (EDT) 

Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 04:10:11 (EDT) 

I would say that there are no american factory rifles capable of this kind of accuracy. Only american custom or semicustomrifles like ATI-M24 are capable of that. In Europe the story is different. We are used to the "Anschutz-syndrome" when it comes to target or sniperrifles. That is out of box accuracy and shootability.

Price has ofcource something to do with things but there are "cheap" eurorifles out there.

The Scandinavian DCM's are using a standard targetrifle called Sauer 200 STR (Scandinavian Target Rifle). This rifle costs $1100 (US) + tax in Norway. Quick-change barrels are $200. The rifle is listed in GD97 as Sauer 202 TR Targetrifle, $1900/425. Mel's Sniperpage has a picture of the rifle called SSG-3000. There are 30-40000 STR's in shooters hands now in Norway (pop. 4 mill !). In any form of shootingevent, except benchrest, this rifle blows the others away due to its accuracy and shootability.
The gunsmiths hate the rifle. The only work they have left is an occational beddingjob. All other gunsmithing can be done by the shooter on the range.

Other more expensive european rifles capable out of box are: Accuracy Int, Blazer Tactical, Steyr SSG, etc

BTW, my favourite american rifle is the Wichita Silouette. I'd like to order one with the sidemounted mag. (stenguntype) and Anschutz trigger for sunshine sniping :-)

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 05:31:08 (EDT) 

On BlackStar process: I just got my PSS back and will start the testing process out in the next month. As far as their barrels go I can not say. Does anyone else have an actual BlackStar barrel they can comment on?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:16:56 (EDT) 

Now, as far as the AT1-M24. All groups mentioned were made with Federal Gold Medal, 168 grain match. If you want more info on the weapon itself, please read my review in the "In Review" section. You can follow the link to Andy's site. I believe his rifle is about $2000 minus optics. The rifle is a Rem 700 with a Mike Rock barrel, 5-R Obermeyer twist. Andy does not make the only worthy SWS out there, it just happens to be the one I played with most recently! You can figure on spending between $1300 to $3500 for any decent purpose built rig from many builders.

Group size: My method of late for measuring the FIVE shot groups is to meticulously measure the outside edge of the group, and subtract the bullet diameter. To make this simple, I measure the two farthest holes in the group. I have found it very hard to measure the exact center of a hole, as this involves some interpretation. Measuring from the edge gives you a visible mark to start from. But any of the methods you mentioned work.

TorF: I would not go so far as to say that there are no factory rifles capable of sub half moa. Depending on caliber, there are several that will regularly dip into this range. My 700 VS in .22-250 is easily a .4 moa rifle, Mr. Taylors .308 Savage 110FP is, if memory serves, a .5 to .6 rig. I believe his .22-250 shoots below that. My PSS will go into the .3s but not consistently. I have not been able to ascertain if it is me or the rifle! Logic says it is a little of both. I'll settle for an average of .6 moa for now. Keep in mind also that many of the groups mentioned are fired with 10x scopes, sometimes less. I have found that I can take a third off the group by using a 20x scope as I can hold a point with higher consentration. But to me, mounting a high magnification scope no longer qualifies the rig as a tactical rifle so I do not mention these groups.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 10:56:04 (EDT) 

Steve:

You have a very valid point about the variance of a first rounds impact.
In the military, we call that a "cold barrel" zero and use our logbooks
to record and understand the variance. It can be overcome with a little bit
of record keeping and attention to detail.

By using this technique, you can overcome the tremendously risky tactical
disadvantage you would pose to yourself and your sniper buddy by using a fouling
shot. The military sniper team is at tremendous risk when it shows itself and should
never use a fouling shot. I am certain that in a real conflict, the sniper who uses
fouling shots routinely would not be long to this world.

Which is why I am harping on it a little bit. No disrespect or hard feelings intended.

SCOTT

It was a pleasure to hear your comment about using air strikes or indirect fire assets for
targets beyond one thousand meters. FO procedures are one of the most important skills a sniper
can have, yet are often not well developed ones. A good military sniper always designates TRPs to
cover his insertion, movement, actions at the obj, and extraction if they are available.

Glad to hear some of the military considerations regarding sniping.
 

Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:27:40 (EDT) 

What is an AT-1 M-24? I used an M-24 on active duty but have no idea what the AT-1 is?
Jeff <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:37:50 (EDT) 

I'm very aware that factoryrifles shoot very well.

But if you take 50 rifles with consecutive(?, my english...) serialnumbers XXXX01 - XXXX50 quality varies to much on american factoryrigs.

If you buy an Anschutz, Steyr or Sauer match/sniper you know that you are going to get a perfect trigger and proven accuracy. You don't have to be lucky. All 50 rifles in the serialnr.range will perform.

With american rifles you have to buy a custum/semicustom to get this level of performance.

In Norway the today level of competition are such that you have to have quickchange barrels etc. It's not unusual to put 15-20000 rounds through the matchrig in one year.

I just wish that all rifles could have the same quality as Anschutz .22LR matchrigs.
 
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 12:49:11 (EDT) 

As for what to take to SMTC, I recommend reading my article on the school and X-Ring’s piece as well.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 17:54:33 (EDT) 

Yes the Steyr SSG is a dated design.

I had the Match-version with heavier barrel and .308win match-chamber. It shot very well.

I also had the mag.problems. It could be solved by giving the rotary spring an extra turn and only use fresh mags.

The SSG 69 has a machinegun-chamber to make it work with all types of 7,62NATO ammo wich is not identical to .308win. It sounds terrible but try necking down .358win-brass. It will probably fit the chamber better... If the action, chamber and rear lockinglugs, are soaking wet you can expect the first round to go up to 3" wide at 100yds...

I have a problem expressing myself in a foreign language...

What I mean is shootability not inherrent accuracy. I use a Rem 40XC KS and a Rem 700 VS for some formal targetshooting. If I want these rifles to be competitive I have to do something with them like changing triggers, springs, fireingpins(speedlock) etc.

BTW as a sniper I prefer an autorifle with a reliable QD scopemount that shoots sub-moa with regular machinegunammo. Fortunatly most Norwegian produced H&K G3's in good condition do that giving a sniperrange of 600m. Mission is weeks on end behind enemy lines usually on skis in the winter or stay behind in an occupied country (my uncle did 3 years playing cat and mouse with the Gestapo). Regular sniperrifles don't like that much except M98's with QD mounts. The feelgoodfactor of an auto in these surroundings more than compensates for the difference in accuracy.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 17:54:53 (EDT) 

TorF: You have a point about triggers and other out of the box issues one might experience with stock US varmint/tactical arms. But for all that, they, at least in my humble experience, still shoot very well. For instance, every Remington I own came with a hateful eight pount lawyer driven trigger. Yet each one still shot just above half m.o.a. I just can not get to exercised about that. In fact I'd have to say bloody well done to these major labels for being able to crank out non-tuned, production fodder that shot so well. Particularly for the money. $300 to $600 US. On another subject: Feel free to regal us with stories about your uncle. I have a particular interst of the history in your neck of the woods during WWII.
Scott <Xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 21:15:26 (EDT)