Sniper Country Duty Roster

April 2000

Got your e-mail about ARMS #22l rings and the Brookfield mount for an M1-A a while back. Sorry for being a little untimely here. Anyway, the instructions for the mount says to use Loctite on all screws and mating surfaces. Do you know what particular Loctite to use? Or any other suggestions on the installation? One more thing, is there any elevation built into this mount? Thanks much
John <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 00:11:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tactical gear?? What kind of stuff?? If it's cases, rucks, pouches, vests, etc. try first. He's just up the road from you in Lakewood. Stuff seems to have a pretty good rep and prices aren't out of line. I understand they do custom work also.

BTW, if you are getting upset by black tar and mustard, just wait until she gets into solid foods. That's when it REALLY hits the fan, or should I say 'the NOSE'.


PS Congrats on the bambina.

George L. Derry <>
Getting warm in Oakland, People's Republic of Kalifornicateya, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 00:22:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Morris: congrats man, gonna be a blast, when you aren't sleep deprived :-)

John: If you KNOW it's the way you want it, and it shouldn't ever move, use the red. I've got plenty, and you would be surprised at how well that stuff will hold. Don't expect it to ever come off though. If you're not quite so sure, use the yellow. A little heat from the wifies hair dryer will get it soft enough to turn without messing anything up. Besides, that's good 8620 steel, you aren't gonna hurt it unless you try or do something REAL dumb :-) The way I center that thing is entirely scientific. I hit it a lot. Really though, tighten to spec in order, wiggling the thing as you go. When I do it, that finds it's most "stable" point (at least I THINK it does). Basically, I just go step by step from the instructions. As far as built in elevation goes, I haven't got any, but I can see how that would change from rifle to rifle since the stripper clip guide dovetail isn't a "blueprinted" cut, lots of change in angles and height, etc. Truth to tell, if I were you, I'd talk to some of the REAL M1A experts around here. They can probably tell you MUCH better than I can what works best. I'd personally give DC8Plumber, Patron 'Lito, or Patron Dave a go. They're the hot shots.
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 00:52:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can anyone tell me if the Hornady 168gr match .308 are as good as Sierras?

Darryl <>
Australia - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 01:02:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

With all the controversy on moly bullets,and how it reduces the land markings on the bullet, but can mess up your barrel, i was wondering, HAS ANYONE THOUGHT OF PAPER PATCHING BULLETS???? It in essence does the same thing, but isn't a chemical, so i would assume it wouldn't ruin the barrel at all. granted, over time the paper would absorb water, but read on. i read about it in an old armorers (spellings bad on that one) book. What paper patching is is that the bullet is a few thousandths less in diameter than normal. A length of paper (specific kind way back then, it was a certain type of cotton, and came in varrying thicknesses) is then rolled onto the bullet in the proper direction so that it won't unroll in the barrel as its shot. Although paper on a bullet would not be the thing for a sniper, i was considering, what about a plastic film instead???? If anyone would like more info on this, gimme a hollar.
I think i might give it a try, the gun prints 1"-.75" at 100 yards with factory ammo. I am considering later on putting a 'glass stock on (i'm 6'2", and my arms and hands must be way bigger than what remington must have had in mind for the person to shoot it, it feels too small, really cramped). I am also considering switching in a 21.75" gain twist barral (the 21.75" barrel length is from what i've researched the optimal legth for target shooting, i got it from a benchrest site).
I have an older remington model 700 varmint special (wood stock, bull barrel, .308,3.5-10x44 mag simmons scope $500 bucks, first rifle, age 16 :) )that i use for deer, bear, and targets. i want to get into long range shooting, but the longest range i've found in MICHIGAN is 200 yards, but i have to work at the range, and pay $150+ a year to use it. where is the closest 1000 yard range to me!!! i live in detroit. ANY COMMENTS ON A GAIN TWIST BARREL?????
thanks for the info.


P.S. I'm a 21 male, so all you old timers worried that shooting for rec purposes is dying, fear not, for i have friends around my age that enjoy responsible rifling, shotgunning, and handgunning.
Freebyrd <>
farmington hills , Michigan, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 01:39:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Darryl: in my experience, Sierras are the way to go. Hornady's did all right at the reduced ranges, but weren't QUITE as good as the SMK's IN MY RIFLE. Also, Speers wouldn't group well for me at all. If I could find a small lot, I would give a shot at the Lapuas. One of my friends (well to do) swears by their accuracy in anything over SMK's, but I don't want to try 1000 and see.
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 02:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thought you guys might get a chuckle out of this one...

"Being a good coyote hunter is all about proper spent shell awareness..."
~Anonymous GF&P predator control hunter.

Coyotes - 1
Game Fish and Parks - 0

"Shotgun shell forces plane down"

~~By Tori J. McCormick -- American News Writer

A pilot and his passenger escaped injury Thursday morning after their plane crash-landed in a pasture in McPherson County.

Pilot Mike Harmon of Mansfield and gunner Kevin Holt of Cresbard were searching for coyotes when a spent 12-gauge shotgun shell casing lodged in the plane's controls, making the single-engine J3-Cub all but impossible to navigate. The two were doing predator control work for the state Game, Fish and Parks Department.

"It was one of the scariest situations I've ever been in as a pilot," said Harmon, who has flown since 1992.

"It was a freak accident, and the only thing that got hurt was my pride." He said the plane was traveling about 50 mph when the controls locked up.......

Full article at
CCaspers <>
USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 02:18:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Help! I have an AR derivative rifle with a throat out in California someplace. So I'm lucky if it will hit 1.5 inches at 100 meters, fully bagged and benched.
That barrel is gone, obviously.
Can anyone recommend 1.) a polygonal barrel, are they worth it?
2.) where are such barrels available; or
3.) a riflesmith who can get me a nice heavy bull barrel in 223 or 223 Ackley with a short throat so I can load to the lands while still being able to use the #*$^ magazines?
Thanks kindly, Dave Skinner
P.S. Loved that real Americans thing from the fellah in Ohio. I must be getting old, but not senile, as I can still remember that stuff.
Dave Skinner <>
Whitefish, MT, USofA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 05:59:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
About the AR15s, JP Enterprises, DPMS, and MetalCraft make some darn decent uppers. MetalCraft is on the links list under firearm manufactures and they offer about 3 makes of barrels, Olympic, Kreiger, and DPMS.

DPMS sells barrels in some pretty hefty bull barrel profiles, like a 1 1/8 inch at the muzzle super bull. is there web addy I think
DPMS offers Stainless and ChromeMoly barrels from 16-24 Don't know if DPMS is finished updated their pages yet or not.

JP Enterprises makes a pretty decent upper as well as selling just the barrels. They use 416 stainless and I can reload mine to touch the lands and still have plenty of room in the magazine. is the addy for sure They just updated some of their pics to include most every upper assembly they make.

All of these makers or builders will probably be what you seek in barrels for accuracy. Are you using a freefloating type of barrel with the round freefloat handguards? If you are still using a standard type of handguard config then you aren't doing to badly with 1.5, if that's with irons then that's really good in my book.
B. Douglas <>
Bakersfield, where a lovely woman shot herself ealier today on a University Campus, what a waste, Ca., USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 07:38:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

I must say that your site is very nice. I recently picked up an old WWII Lee-Enfield #4 Mk1* .303 rifle, and after some finagling and searching around, i managed to find a replica of the original sniper gunscope and scope mount for the rifle, but to my dismay, when i took the rifle out to the range to zero it, no matter how much i adjusted the scope, the rifle shot high and to the right, even when my left handed friend shot the rifle. I must also tell you that this is my first rifle, I am not familiar with rifle accurizing or adjustment techniques, although my friend who is used to it told me to make sure that the stock is not touching the barrel in any way. Any hints/tips on how to do this would be appreciated.
Al <>
Oxnard, CA, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 08:07:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
B. Douglas-
You forgot to mention CLE (Compass Lake Engineering). Owner Frank White has done a lot of work for highpower shooters across the country, including USAMU. He is, I believe, Kreiger's biggest customer. And for those that have smaller budgets he carries Douglass and a few others.

Paul M.
Paul M. <>
USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 09:26:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Yeah I left out a lot of makers, I just included my favorites. Everyone has been jumping on the AR15 bandwagon, Les Baer and Wilson included. When it comes down to an awesome AR15 the receivers that JP starts there Grade III rifles out with are hard to beat. JP doesn't make those Grade III receivers but the finished result is a real trick that is for sure.

There are a lot of quality shops and smiths that work on AR15s that is for certain. Word of advice is to shop around, hit and hit their links page and the discussion forum. My email address is also my nickname over there. You'll get some help that's for sure it is just deciding what do buy, build, or use that will make your head spin.
B. Douglas <>
Baketown, Ca, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 09:51:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Freebyrd. 1000 yard ranges.
There is Camp Perry near Port Clinton Ohio, Less than 200 miles from Detroit. Also Camp Grayling in Michigan. On the Gain twist barrels, there were comments posted. you must have skipped over them.
The way this shooting game works is this. If someone wins a big match with a new piece of equipment, then everyone has to have one. This has not happened with a gain-twist barrel. Having said that, I know of a 6.5 carcano with a gain twist barrel which was once used to deliver accurate rifle fire. The guy shooting it was a ex-marine so it is hard to say if it was the barrel or the shooter that made the difference.

To Al Re: No 4 Enfield.
The scopes used in those days were the kind that the crosswires would move on you when you adjusted the windage and elevation drums. If the elevation and windage drums were off center, then the crosswire could easily be in one corner or the other in the scope picture. A properly setup Enfield will have the crosshair dead center in the scope picture and the rifle hitting exactly where the scope is pointed. This was accomplished with careful machining and placement of the scope bases. The front receiver base is called a spigot. its thickness and the depth of the hole in the scope base controls left to right. The rear receiver base controls the up and down. A master toolmaker who was also familiar with gunsmithing work could fix this for you. There is no other way.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 12:49:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

A question for you LE Rosterfarians:

A friend of mine will be classing up at the CHP Academy in May. One thing he's curious about is a recommendation on a dependable, affordable back-up gun. He would like to avoid an ankle holster but needs to know what you all think is a good gun and a good means for carrying it, either on duty or off.

He says their issue sidearm is chambered in .40 S&W, and would be interested to hear a caliber recommendation, as well. Please email your replies. Thanks very much.

Semper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <>
PA, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 13:53:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I need a complete bolt for a Remington 788 short action (.222). any ideas please email.

Dave Marks <>
USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 15:07:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

what are some good traits of a sniper? i mean i have read about some and i am great at hiding and not panicking when it comes to stuff like paitnballing and spying and stuff like that but what are your personal notes on sniping? i have really thought about going into an elite force like the navy seals or another , and im very serious about gettin into it and im very well toned with physical fitness. i am used to guns because i have been brought up with bow and guns and have shot them a good amount of times and i was also brought up in the woods or suburbs.
chris schulze <>
middleboro, massachusetts, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 15:57:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just been doing some dry firing.
Would someone please reassure me that bolt rifles do not need snap caps for this (in order to prevent damage to the firing pin) -it just doesn't feel right clicking on an empty chamber!
Matt <>
UK - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 16:08:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone know where I might find some replacment screws for a Steyr SSG69. I want to change the scope ring and action screws to the torx type.
Has anyone done a field test on the new Leica LRF yet? I see that Premier Reticle is going to carry them. Does SWFA still have the best price? $399.00 I believe.
Don <>
USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 17:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
any of you gentlemen ever shoulder a Choate M&T stock? finally decided to pull this recycled pop bottle the Savage factory put on my 110 off and i'm looking for an affordable replacement. i'd prefer something along tactical lines but am willing to sacrifice that in favor of superior inletting and bedding. obviously, if i had the cheddar, i'd trade up for a PSS and throw it in an AICS. Choate is more in my price range (as was the Savage(i'm still not disappointed)) what i'm asking is is Choate even an alternative. i don't have any experience to compare the inletting/bedding on high end bolt-action stocks, so even seeing them next to each other would not help me much. i don't know which mgfs. to stay away from. i don't even know what to look for.

anyone got a mfg. i might have missed in my looking that they could suggest? even any tips about what to look for as i do my shopping would be greatly appreciated.

kg <>
USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 18:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mudville Tomorrow: If I can drag myself out of the bed with the Flu I will be there tomorrow. Ammo is loaded and weapon ready to go.

Slings, when you order a sling be sure of what you are ordering. If you ask for sewn in swivels that is what you will get, a sling with sewn in Uncle Mikes swivels unless you either supply the special swivels or pay the extra for them. You all know when I make a mistake I eat the cost but when I make it they way you ask for you are going to ship back the one I made correctly and I will then ship you the one you needed. Call me if you have any questions. Clue here is TRGT takes credit card but only carries Black in 1.5" Military with and without swivels sewn in. If you need custom or Brown come to me directly so nothing is lost in the translation. I cant do any more middle man custom stuff something always gets lost in the translation.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 20:56:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don, I got my Leica LRF a few weeks ago. I haven't done any extensive tests with it yet, but it does seem to work really well so far. It is smaller and clearer than I thought it would be, so I was pleasantly suprised. I got mine through SWFA for $399.

Michael <>
San Hoesay, Kalif., USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 20:58:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello fellow marksman !

I'm on a long journey searching for reticles.
Thought they are NOT for real life, they're for my own research on them. If any knows where i can look for reticles on rifles (G3 series, PSG-1, robar, remington and M40 reticles prefered) ill appreciate IMENSLY!

Thnx in advance!


(PS: i don't know if this post is realted, but i guessed here would be a good place to ask for this! thanks! :)

Luis <>
USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 22:38:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry! wrong email =[

Thnx again !

Luis <>
USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 22:42:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have my 110 in a choate sniper stock. Its a good stock for the 110. It is heavy so you will not like it for 10 mile hikes or running. The weight helps you stay steady when shooting though. I think you will like the varmit model better than the sniper model. I would go for the varmit model. The price is right and it should improve the 110s accuracy.

Cayley J Carson <>
new castle, DE, USA - Saturday, April 01, 2000 at 23:36:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

First time here. Will comment later.
Steve Beers <>
Reno, NevadaFirst time here. Will comment later., USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 00:06:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
Well any of you that have been on the Roster for any length of time know Sarge isn't a political person. HOWEVER this BS with S&W really is to much. SO that being said I KNOW that there are more reloaders here than those that don't and I'll bet most of us have used Midway at one time or another. Well here is ANOTHER reason to use Midway! Shortly after S&W announced their traitorous ways Midway announced they DID NOT agree with Smith in ANYWAY and has PULLED ALL SMITH & WESSON products from current and future catalogs!! If you'd like to see what they wrote go to:

And NO I DON'T know how to do the hypertext so you'll just have to type it in!!!

From beautiful WET - FINALLY NM!!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 00:09:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know of comparison tests of Armalite AR-10 vs. Dragunov?

Which has highest quality?

Which is most accurate?
Sandy MacGibbon <>
Punta Gorda, FL, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 00:48:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just hit the site again after a long time away. You guys must be great snipers, you posting is very consistent. Leupolds vs S/Armoury scopes? Geez guys, brings back memories of the Mother of All Pissing Contests over Spindrift.
Say, could anyone explain Spindrift to me...
Still a great site with great people. Best to you all.
Darryl <>
- Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 02:10:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
SVD vs AR-10. Which AR-10 variant are we talking about? In general the SVD would make a good assault weapon if you cut about 10 inches off of it. As a "sniper" rifle it leaves a lot to be desired. Target versions of the AR-10 are good to go as are SR-25's.

GO with the AR-10 or SR-25.
Gooch <>
USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 02:17:38 (ZULU) (your host address:


EASY - Kimber Compact, or an uh-gee-well-hmmm; GLOCK "mini". Keep the caliber the same as issued, or preferably if allowed BIGGER.

That should stir THE POT strongly for some choice commentary for The Rosterfarians,

Have Great Weekend Guys (n' Gals)!


BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 03:02:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

.40 cal backups- The Glock 27 is a good choice, but still pretty fat and large. I would suggest a Kahr K40 or MK40. Course could never go wrong with a S&W Airweight snubbie. Please hold the political comments about S$W.

mike s <>
USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 04:52:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Fine, I'll hold the comments about the traitorous S&W's, but feel compelled to state that the most recent L-frame I purchased, a 696 (the stainless 44 special) has a trigger that can best be defined as "so attrocious that it defines things that are really really bad". As in, "you wanna race that Yugo GT turbo? HA! that thing's a piece of S&W trigger work!". This is a long ways from the old days, my 681 came with a magnificent trigger. My suggestion for a nice little back up? I like that nifty little single stack Glock 45 auto personally. If I had a purpose for a back up, that would probably be it, as it's a little smaller and lighter than my Colt Officers ACP. And if Glock ever makes a full sized (5" barrel) single stack 45, I'm gonna sell every other pistol and be a "monogomous" guy. Maybe.
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 06:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
After much deliberation, my darling wife decided that I could not live without a Steyr Manlicher SSG-PII in .308. I bought it used, but it is in almost brand new condition. On it was a nifty Kahles ZF 95 6X scope with a 42mm objective lens. The scope has a BDC,(or calibrated range scale, whichever you prefer to call it) and being the dutiful student of ballistics, I know that BDCs are matched to a specific round or load. The gentleman who sold it too me could not tell me which one, and since I have been told that this is the intended scope for this rifle,I imagine that Kahles had a specific Load in mind. Any assistance would be appreciated.
pat <>
., ., USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 06:30:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
This is a cry for help. I've been clean and free of gun lust for four months. I've stayed out of gun shops except as necessary to avoid temptation and that "gun monkey" has stayed off my back. Until yesterday, this is so hard, well I was on my way home from a pistol match and I thought, "What could it hurt? I'll only be a minute." That's when it happened. I walked in and Tim, the evil gun shop employee, said, "Hey, long time no see. Look what we've got on the rack behind the counter." Bingo! I was had. There was the most beautiful NM M1A Fulton Armory worked rifle I've ever seen. I felt that rush. That animal thing. That "I must have this rifle even if the kids go hungry." kind of desire. I'm begging you guys. Somebody, anybody, tell me its no good, it'll only break my heart, I've got a family to think of. I need some help here. I can't stand it. I just know I'm about to do something I might regret later. SOMEBODY STOP ME!
Kevin R. Mussack <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 10:42:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone know where you can get Remington 700 BDL actions new without purchasing the entire rifle? If any answers please forward them to me via my email address.
Geoffrey Dick <>
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 11:49:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

"Somebody, anybody, tell me its no good, it'll only break my heart, I've got a family to think of. I need some help here. I can't stand it. I just know I'm about to do something I might regret later. SOMEBODY STOP ME!"

"tell me its no good,"... It's GOOD!

"it'll only break my heart,"... Not like a Woman!

"I've got a family to think of."... Peanut Butter, and Tuna Casserole, have protein, build charactor, and mental fortitude.

"I need some help here."... I'm sure some kind Rosterfarian will help you get set up with the right mounts and scope... I recoment the A.R.M.S. M14 base, and a MK4-M3.

"SOMEBODY STOP ME!"... you came to Sniper Country, to get help, "to not buy a good rifle"... that's like going to Dunkin Donuts, to get help giving up sugar and caffine :(...


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 12:26:15 (ZULU) (your host address:


You've made the first step - you have admitted that you have "the problem." Now, there is one more thing you should do to completely break your addiction:

Buy the rifle and send it to ME! That is sure to prevent you from ever repeating this awful (if otherwise satisfying) behavior.

Good luck on your recovery. If you are really seious about this (LOL), then email me for the particulars. And remember - You must do it for the children!

Roger E. Lays <>
PA, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 12:43:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. Those damn gun shop bastards are clearly making a victim out of you. After you have hocked the kids and bought the rifle, your next stop should be an attorney. This is clearly an "attractive nuisance". (see Martindill vs. Stapuft marshmallow, Hill vs. Dairy Queen) He should be able to get those S.O.B.s to settle before going to court. If yo're one of those guys that names rifles, I suggest "Sue".

jim <>
Portland, Or, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 13:23:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tell ya what Roger, we'll do a game of Rock, Paper, Sissors over the internet. You go first and I promise I won't look at what you picked before I pick. Winner gets to have Kevin send him the rifle.

So one, two, three... Go!

I'm still crying over the 125 bucks I spent last Thurday buying reloading supplies to replace the stuff I shot in a tactical rifle match last saturday. My thumbs are sore from deburring about 250-300 cases. When I get the moxy to buy something nifty I think I'm going to spring for one of those darn automatic case trimmers that automatically debur as it trims. What's the word on them devils? Any good?

God almighty help me if I ever buy a 50cal. There is something I really like about the RoBar Folding 50cal. My dream is to get about 400-500 acres of land in the foot hills out here by where I live and ranch squirrels and cotton tail. That should bring in the Coyotes like flys, a 50 cal. from across a valley hill top should be narsty on a yote. If anyone would like to donate funds to my Squirrel Utopia send me cash dang it! I'm sure all the tree hugging vegan hippies would love to see that as much as you and I.
B. Douglas <>
Bakersfield, Ca., USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 13:27:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin, please allow one more thought of advice/support.
jim <>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 13:37:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
Fulton M1-A, Miarcle Trimmers and Real-World Exterior Ballisitics


By all accounts and from personal experience, I can say that Fulton Armory-tweaked gas guns are of excellent quality, realy impossible to beat. If you ever want one and the price on this one is withing reash, I'g get it. People are reporting that turnaround time at Fulton is running something like one year.

Geoffrey Dick:

Remington will sell bareled actions through a very few outlets ( Brownells being the primary one) but will not sell a stripped action to *anyone*. From what I understand, when the USMC takes delivery of actions to built M40A1s they have to remove the cheesy little sporter barrel and dispose of it themselves. Also, I dont know about the retail situation in Oz, but here it would probably be about as cheap to buy a complete rifle from a discount retailer like Wal-Mart and throw most of it away to built a gun.

B. Douglas:

If you mean the Gracey case trimmer as sold by Gracey or OK Webber, it is in fact the bees knees. I have several thousand pieces of brass to trim here shortly and I am not at all dreading this as I would have been if I was still using my Forester for the task. Get the carbide cutter from Bob Jones and hook it up to a 300+ RPB motor and its supposed to be even better! (My next project) And if the Gracey trimmer wasent impressive enough, his case neck turner is fabulous. (zing!) and its done.

Q for the list: now that I have looked, I dont even see any 700 barreled actions for sale at Brownells anymore, only Model 7s. Are there any tactical rifle built using the Model 7 action? I would think that it would work OK and that some folks might want to save on that little bit of bulk and weight.

Also, a bit of ballistics experimentation yesterday has lead to some confusion on my part. I had a local electronics store make up a 120 yard long cable for my Master Gamma Chrony (at half of what Crony wants to sell me one for) and decided I would get some real-world retained velocity figures for several loads. One was the same load I shot at Ft. Gordon at 600 and 1000 last weekend, 175 gr. Matchking on top of 45.0 gr. Varget, Lapua brass, WLR primer, loaded to magazine length. I got three to go sub-1/2 MOA@ 100 yards, though the last two opened it up some. Velocities were centered right around 2675 FPS at the muzzle and 2450 at 100 yards.

I plug these figures into Bill Frenchu's Balistic software and it yields a BC calculation of .391 under nominal atmospheric conditions (which closely mimic actual conditions here yesterday). Yet, when I go to Sierra's web site and pull up the nominal BC fiures for the 175 MK for my general velocity range, I find a BC of .496 *BIG* difference, I'd say!

So, I take the BC given by Mr. Frenchus software and use it to produce a sight-in chart using the G1 table and find that, indeed, it somewhat matches the real-world trajectory I got at Ft. Gordon, where I had 16 MOA and 37 MOA up from my 100 yard zero at 600 and 100 yards, repecivly. Frenchu's software calls for 17 MOA and 45 MOA, so my load is apparenly shooting a fair bit flatter than it has any business shooting. Then again, a review of my records shows that some of my 100 yard groups shot pror to my trip to Gordon seem to favor the top of the 1 MOA black squares I was shooting at by perhaps 1/2 MOA.

Now, using Sierras nominal BC of .496, I get 15.1 MOA and 37.7 MOA at 600 and 100 yards, respectivly. So, neither is quite right at 600 and Sierras nominal value of .496 seems to correlate much more closely with actual performance I got at 1000 yards, which seems to make something of a lie of the velocity data I gathered at 100 yards.

Sooo...whrere does all this leave me? Some possible sourses of error that come to mind are: the possible sight-in deviation at 100 yards, improper choice of the G1 table; error in the chronograph readings owing to the extra long cable, something in Franchu's softrware not quite squared away.

Or should I ignore all this crap and just shoot the damn thing? :)



Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 15:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kevin use the 30 day rule ,if you still want it after 30 days buy it.
this sounds like a one of a kind thing, So you may have to buy that mother after all, sometimes you find a better one before the 30 is up

Hans K. <>
CA., USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 15:18:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hans K...

I don't think the 30 day rule applys to anything other than really odd ball guns, or over priced guns.
If it's a desirable type of gun, and it's still there after 30 days, There's either something wrong with it, or it's over priced, and you need to look into.

I've never seen a good gun, at a good price, sit in a shop for more than a week or 10 days.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 16:03:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

What is the name of this gun shop and where is it located?
John <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 16:35:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
To clear up something: Clint McKee does some fine work, and yes, sometimes it takes up to a year to get a full up rifle built. But that's because you put your request in after the "high power rush" that keeps him way too busy for most of the year. If you don't mind holding off on your request until the end of the season, you can get it back in about 4 months :-)
And Kevin, you can always do what I do. Anything that hasn't been shot in the last 2 years comes out of the safe (unless it has sentimental value - or no real value), and gets traded for the "new toy". You'd be surprised how many dealers will gladly give you $750 for that unused $1500 rifle! For the scope set up, I can entirely recommend a "ditto" of Patron 'Lito's suggestion. ARMS #18 mount, and rings to your taste holding a Leupold MK4. Works for me. I changed from the M1 to M3, but that's your call.
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 17:28:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Recently, I bought a Remington 700 ADL .270 Win w/22" bbl ans syn. stock. I was wondering what modifications I should purchase to make it shoot <2" groups at 600 yds. I was also interested ind finding out how to make an effective, accurate silencer without subsonic ammo. I noticed a Choate Long Action Stock I could purchase. I also wanted an opinion on which is the best scope for shooting 600-700 yds for a good price.
Randall <>
Houston, Texas, USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 19:19:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Not too many folks know this story, but the original remington LTR (light tactical sniper rifle) was built using the model 7 receiver. I believe Remington switched to the 700 receiver for that rifle because of public perception, not actual strength issues.
MicTac <>
USA - Sunday, April 02, 2000 at 21:15:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Remington actions;
Could be that Remington won't sell 'em but there is an ad in nearly every Gun-List under the heading "Remington Rifles For Sale" from Chesters 631-696-3800 for actions NIB blue BDL $350 stainless short or long BDL$469 magnum$489 in the one I'm looking at now.

Anybody have any experience or suggestions for expedition grade lighters?Been raining here incessantly for about two weeks and has made me acutely aware of the need for absolutely reliable flame.This needs to BE expedition grade not just LOOK expedition grade.Brunton makes one any other suggestions?
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 01:39:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Results from the "grind the tip off the HPBT" experiment (ref. my 3/31 post). This is by no means conclusive, but I fired ten-shot groups with each load yesterday (identical loads in .308 with Sierra 168 MKs, but 10 were loaded to 2.810 OAL so as to be magazine-feedable, 10 to 2.890 OAL, just off the lands, and then had the tips shortened so OAL was back to 2.810, resulting in a larger diameter, flatter tip).... The firing sequence was one unshortened into the left target, then one shortened into the right target, etc., alternating so that barrel heating would be an equal factor. First I have to fess up that by and large my handloads in .308 have disappointed in terms of group size, no record setting going on here. This dang VSSF will make me proud with Federal GM (.4 MOA@300Y), and once in a while with a handload, but I really have not found a great handload for it yet that will do right every time. Best luck sofar with W760, worst with BLC(2) and these were with BLC(2). Anyhoo. At 300 yards the un-shortened bullet load gave me a 10-shot group of 2.900 (not including a cold bore shot), and the long-seated-and-then-shortened load gave me 10 into 4.040 and 3 3/4" low by 1/2" left. I'd say the 1/2" left is statistically meaningless, and I'm not ready to say the lower POI was due necessarily to the diminished BC from blunting the points-- coulda been a dif in velocity caused by the long seating I suppose... I didn't graph them and don't have time to do a study on the ballistic program to see what velocity dif would give this added drop, but-- at first blush this didn't work. Kinda disappointed about that as typically this rifle responds to long seated bullets. Nothing a little Myers's and Coke can't handle though.

Going on a little expedition which will hopefully get me close enough to the Spanish Legion that I can ask around about what they have in the way of sniper rifles. At the very least maybe I can report on the condition of their brig and how they treat Gringos who ask too many suspicious questions.... "Hey, I'm an American dammit, you can't treat me like thi-- OW!"

Somebody posted recently, or I read it in Tac Shooter, about subsonic .308's, and 150 yards or so being the limit due to the rainbow trajectory. You guys who can have this stuff (cans), I fiddled a little bit with 180 Nosler Partitions loaded backwards and subsonic, the idea being to get the max terminal effect from a low-velocity round. Accuracy was minute-of-center-of-mass and a little better at 150 yards, let's say 8" or so. Is that not worth pursuing a little further? Just guessing that a 180 or 220 at subsonic will not expand, so why not at least go in with the big end first and see if it'll tumble? And, Partitions being open at both ends, seems like maybe you'd even get some deformation...?

CELT: a) you're at work and on the clock, so get out of SC or I'm telling, , and
b) is it OK for me to send the W.A. item to your work before I
leave? Hammer and sear pins were severely bent, get him
off steroids immediately!!.... and
c) Ya shoulda hung around for burgers after the match today. Good, no, great, to see ya anyway, Master. (Sorry, High Master).
Ned goes BANG!
Ned <>
Cowtown, MI, USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 04:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Any report on the outcome of the HP Tactical Shoot at Sacramento Valley Shooting Center? Last month it was a mud pit I bet today it was a blast furnace! Who won, placed 2nd, 3rd etc?

Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 05:16:33 (ZULU) (your host address:


Regarding your inquiry concerning the silencer a good scope and getting your remington adl to shoot <2" at 600yds. Its good you want the best optics for your rifle your going to need it for this type of peformance. youll want somthing really good like the leapers product. Next you will want some match ammo like the chinese made copper washed cartridges. With cartridges like this you dont have to worry about the wind at all! The copper coats the chamber with copper resulting in smoother projectile acceleration.
As far as the silencer im sure somone else here can help you.


Ps if you are a troll i will consider myself trolled

pookster <>
USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 06:03:51 (ZULU) (your host address:


Kahles ZF 95

in 7,62x51 there are three diffrent BDC´s available.

144 Grain for the FN SS 77

185 Grain for the Lapua Match

190 Grain for the RWS Match

Upon speaking to Kahles this morning they had no velocity listed in the information they had there. However they told me that all ballistic data is being done by the Hirtenberger ammunition company.

The ZF 95 is available in ether 1/4 MOA target turrets or the 100-800 Meter BDC.

Seems like they dont have much to offer in terms of usefull information for our type of shooter. All I heard was target shooters, hunters etc. I did´nt even use the term "Sniper", just military application. I was not impressed by the knowlege of the Gent I was transfered to after talking to three of the "civillian" sales people.

hope this helped


torsten <>
germany - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 08:01:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Scope advise
I read alot of good things about the Tasco ss10x40, does Tasco have a variable scope that is comparable to this scope for about the same money.Or any other brand for that matter.
I feel a little intimidate with the mil dot scopes. Im not sure their right for me to start out with,, Suggestions please
ad <>
Al, USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 14:18:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
First off...i wanted to thank everyone that helped me out with my last question. Now, onto the 2nd one. I am purchasing a savge tactical in .308. I will be shooting distances up to 500 yds. What is a reasonably priced scope for this? i kinda want a tasco. but do they make them w/a BDC? & if so...roughly how much? Just looking for the way...all you guysa here are great. My dad showed me this site...immediately went into my faves. SO much info here i can spend hrs going thru this place alone! anyway...thanks in advance for any help.
"keep your ass down!"
bill reed <>
USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 16:45:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am just curious. What were you looking for when you "stumbled" onto the inflatable sheep site? It is very funny, but I must know.
Frank < >
Port Awful, Orygunn, USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 17:01:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Browning Hi-Power which has less than a hundred rounds through it. I cleaned it over the weekend and reassembled it then went back to the range yesterday. After about forty-five rounds it suddenly stopped functioning, with the slide locking about halfway through the cycle. I was able to push the slide closed, and I can cock the hammer and dry fire, but I cannot move the slide completely to the rear. It continues to lock open about halfway through the cycle. Thus, I cannot remove the slide stop, and therefore cannot disassemble the pistol. Has anyone had a similar problem? I'm about to head to my smitty, but I'm wondering if I need to send the pistol to Browning.
Thus far I have only fired factory loads. I did NOT disassemble any portion of the trigger/lower receiver when I cleaned it. Just removed the slide stop/barrel/mainspring/guide to clean the rails and bore. This pistol was purchased new and I never before had this problem until yesterday. Any thoughts anyone?


Keith Benoist <>
Dugangatang, USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 17:58:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Need input;
I have a 27 in. Krieger barreled 300 W.M. in 1-13 twist. I also have a 4-14 scope bdc. for 168gr. I would like to know if anyone has tried this combo, or is it even worth trying.If it is worth trying does anyone have a starting point loadwise.
I can here a whole bunch of you out there saying to yourselves why does"nt he shoot a 308.But I have this 300 wm in 1-13 twist.
tim <>
USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 20:08:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
SAT IN ON THE SIGARMS Basic Marksman/Observer Course, held in texas. I worked a little bit with and talked to the Chief Instructor John Peterson and George. John is a great instructor and eager to help. Spent several hours talking to him. He has a lot of good ideas and puts on a great class. If you are looking for a good school,you might try this one.
C.C., TX, USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 20:11:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
I recently bought a ATN 6-18x65mm Professional, Lit reticle scope. It was for sale in the AAFES catalog. Normally I like what AAFES has to offer, and when it comes to electronics and optics they are usually very picky. They insist on a quality product that requires very little support and has a great warranty. I started researching this company and found out that it was a "sister" company of AMT corp. AMT makes a lot of high end Night Vision monoculars, binoculars, and rifle scopes, as well as some quality electronics, and is known the world over.

I ordered the scope and got it promptly. It is huge and heavy, almost 3 pounds and 18" long. It comes with "custom" scope mounts for the 30mm tube. In which requires a very high cheek rest. The scope is supposed to be adjustable from 30m to infinity. I could not get mine to adjust less than 150m without losing focus on the reticle. I called the company and they treated me like I knew nothing at all about scopes and never shot a gun before. I mentioned that the scope did not come with lens caps and finally got them to listen long enough to establish that there was a defect in the scope that would not let it focus. I finally told me to send it back and they would make sure that it was checked out before it was sent and that lens caps would be included.

Shortly after I received scope #2. I unpacked it checked it out and noticed that there were no lens caps, again. I called them and was told this time that they dont supply them and to check Butler Creek. Butler Creek doesn't make caps that big, nor does any other company that I could find so far. I called them today and was told that they dont make them and could not help me. "Sucks to be me!!" \

The scope is extremely clear, it collects light like no other scope I have ever seen. It has adjustability forever. It will take me a while to get used to having the reticle get bigger as it zooms to 18x and not having an adjustable objective. Have not used a german designed scope before. I found out that the scope is designed by the same company that is responsible for Zeiss scopes in Germany. Apparently AMTc bought the company in 1995. Who knows??

I am happy with the brightness, contrast, and ease of use. But it is very heavy and BIG. I hope to find some lens caps for it and maybe even a soft case that will accomodate the rifle, bi-pod, and scope combo. No luck so far. If there is anyone that has experience with this scope or company, or even knows of anyone that does offer the lens caps or soft case, please let me know. If not I guess I will have to get one custom made from Scope Coat.

Please email me with comments, I am not trying to sell or down grade the scope, just give me opinion and experience with the scope/company.

Thanks in advance!
Joe Dawson <>
Dalton, WI, USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 20:54:49 (ZULU) (your host address:


High Power Ouups !

the last HP that was send to me that had the same problem had a bulge in the
barrel restricting backward movement of the slide. Dummy had a no powder
reload, drove the bullet into the barrel, cycled in a fresh round , boom
!!!! The best one I have seen so far was a barrel which had a bulge, but
the "Mastergunsmith" filed the bulge off so that the slide would move again.
BIG No no !

Check the bore if its free, and if it has a bulge in it ?

If not check the backward movement of the slide, is it slowly binding up, or
is it suddenly coming to a crisp stop ?

If its slowly binding, then up try to wiggle the barrel, or have someone do
it, while you pull the slide back.

Still hanging up ?

Remove the grips and see if you can find any brass/lead or broken pieces in
the Mag safety, or the sear levers.

Last choice is the sacrifice the slide stop lever and cut it with a thin
blade and a dremel tool. Tape the frame and slide with duct tape, make
yourself a good elbow support drive the slide stop as far out as it will go
to give yourself some room for error / tremble and a go for it be a man and
do it!
Cut the rearward portion that forms the slidestop of and remove it. Then you
cab drive out the pin and should be able to get the slide off.

Or send it to Cylinder & Slide in Freemont Nebraska and have Bill fix it for


torsten <>
germany - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 21:08:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Frank, all snipers and wannabees want companionship :)
Bolt <>
USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 21:39:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
Many ask about Tasco Scopes, mil dots and good glass in General, It's my humble opinion that your better off with a Leupold such as a 3.5X10 duplex matte with some target turrets at a slightly higher price than trying to beat it with some of the off brand stuff. It's not a great trick to build a good scope if size and weight are not considerations. (eg. Night Force) Pablito' had an excellent post while back about scopes and resolution. There is just so much possible and just so much light than can be gathered. Just get a good Leupold with the right innards for you application, don't worry, Mil dots are still the way to go, if you want to know where your shot is going to wind up. But if you can't afford them you can use the Leupold ranging system that comes with all their late model scopes and your money is best spent for good optical performance. Don't overlook the Leupold 12X fixed in the optics dept. or the 6X mil dot if you aren't shooting long distances. Good scopes for not a lot of money. The 12X doesn't have clicks and if ranging is a neccessary option you will be better off with less power and turrets and mil dots. $500.00 will get you a fairly good Leupold with all these features. Don't settle for second best optics. Your better off with a cheaper rifle (speaking of out of box Remington or Savage Tactical) than poor optics.
B.Rogers <>
USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 23:00:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
Did I fail to mention the excellent Winchester's in that post above. they are turning out right now in the rifle department, Shame on me! A bit heavy for my taste but then I's a mountain man of sorts!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 23:04:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
Where has interarms gone? Do they still exist? I am having no luck contacting them... Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks...
Steve <>
USA - Monday, April 03, 2000 at 23:51:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
Could somebody give me the contact for the Badlands Training Center in Grandfield Okla. Sounds very tempting for a short getaway from work and family.

High Voltage <>
Misery, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 01:01:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

HP Tactical Match at Sacramento Valley Shooting Center, April 2, 2000

It was clear, warm and dry with high 50's at signups to about 80F at the end of the shoot. There was almost no wind during the first relay, building to 10-12 mph during most of the second relay. Record turnout of 30 with 7 new shooters. The Duty Roster was well represented.

The match was won by Bill Farnham, 301/3X shooting a Rem 700 VLS in 7mm-08. Bill has shot this match for a number of years with this being his first win. He credits the win to having recently changed to a Leupold LR scope. Ken Jenks got second, 294/3X, 308, and Jeff Romero third, 277/0X, 308. This is the third time in four matches that it took over 300/360 to win.

The 600-yard headshot was fired again. Three shooters scored three hits: Ken Jenks, Jeff Short, and Mike Miller. Ken's 3 shot group on this stage was less than 1.5" C.T.C., good shooting (two shots were touching and the third was completely covered by a 3" spotter stuck in the furthest hole).

This is a fun shoot. Anyone interested in long-range shooting should come shoot with us on the first Sunday of the month at 0800.

Dee Turner <>
Roseville, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 01:34:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Oh Al,
Did you make it home ok ? Them groundpigs didn't give you nightmares did they ? Had a great time in NC. Lets do it again next year. Did you hear someone say they had a shoot in Ohio ?
Outta here.
Tony White <>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 01:44:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
I've never posted here before but I'm sure that someone on here can help me out. I'm relatively new to guns but I've been bit hard by the bug. I just got my first AR-15 for Christmas and I love shooting it but now I am ready to do a little bit of long-range shooting. I'm on a limited(E-3) budget. I've seen some Savage Tactical .308's for around $200. My question is would this gun be satisfactory as an entry-level tactical rifle. With a mid-range scope could this gun be competitive in entry-level competition. I appreciate any help. Thanks Again.
Dan <>
Shreveport, LA, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 02:59:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tony and Ginger, we made it home OK. Im Glad to see you guys made it hoime alright also. Got in Saturday nite and it was long ride from North Carolina. For anyone who is interested. We attended the Ground Hog and Egg Shoot in Vale NC and had a great tiime. If anyone plans on going next year, leave them tactical rifles at home and get a 24 or 36 power scope on a real tack driving rifle preferably larger than a 22 centerfire, unless it can hold up a with an 80 grain Sierra. The tactical rifles were somewhat competitive but only marginally. At 500 yards, you needed someting a little more than a 10x Leopold M1 with mil-dots. Almost all of the people woith tactical rifles didnt even come close to winning, but it was a great learning experience. Really a fun time with over 225 participants, and the weather was great. 80 degrees early Saturday aftenoon in Hickory. Quite a a change from the snow which I vaguely remember just a week ago.

Tony, Ive got some pix of you guys and e-mail your address, and I'll snail mail them to you.

Later you guys. It late and Ive got to get off to work tomorrow. Enough of this tom-fooolery. Time to earn some more money!

al o.

Al Ostapowicz <>
Home again in my loving wife's arms in , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 03:14:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am a keen military collector in Australia and have a large collection including many rare sniper rifles which I am currently culling. I am trying to contact Dan Ross who I believe is interested in sniper rifles and parts. Would anyone know his Email address?
I would also like to contact anyone who is a keen military rifle collector to buy, swap or sell.
Cheers and good collecting,
Colin Green <>
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 03:19:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
Dan in Shreveport:

Savages of all types shoot rather well. Even the cheesiest 110E that WalMart ever sold will probably shoot 1 MOA with the right load. Some people arent too impressed with the stock that comes on the tactical models (a realy Flexy-Flyer) but all in all, they seem to work just fine. Plan on getting an aftermarket trigger, though: OEM is pure crap.

I'd rather have a Savage with a top-notch scope than a high-dollar custom gun with cheap glass on it. Spend the pennies you save on a good scope.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 03:54:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

I need some info so I figured I would stop lurking and ask. First, I remember a while back the discussion about 6.5 mm cartridges. Is there any advantage of the 6.5-284 over the 6.5-06? Most manuals I have seen have interchangeable data for them. The 284 has a belt which I understand can decrease accuracy by changing the way the cartridge chambers from shot-to-shot.

Second, I got a new job in Seattle. Can anyone e-mail me info on where to shoot and if there are any Kalifornia-style problems with semi-autos (no type III stuff)?

Thanks for your help in advance.

Steve <>
Harlingen, Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 03:55:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Browning HP Problem:

Had a customer bring in a HP with the same symptoms. With enough persuation, the slide stop was removed and the barrel had to be held in position to remove the slide. It has sheared the lug off the bottom of the barrel. While this was a high milage HP, I suppose it could happen with a defective barrel too. Good luck.

mike s <>
USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 04:22:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can you reccomend a great scope base and rings for a Sigarms SHR970
in .300 Win Mag. I would prefer something very beefy and of excellent
quality. Thanks in advance and keep up the good work on a killer web
page (no pun intended).

Greg Broche <>
Miami, FL, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 04:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address:


I think I can help you with that silencer problem,

Just take a large patato and a knife.

Hollow out the end of the spud about an inch and slighly larger than the barrell. Next just slip it over the end and push down on it so it is seated well...... then just point and shoot. it will muffle the sound to nothing:) The copper jacket on the bullet will help it slide through the spud slicker as well have fun;)
Owen Foster <>
SomewhereIn, Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 07:30:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi all! has come up with something new. We'now feature a Material Recognition Test. If you go to our SniperHide Material Recognition Test and fill out the form you'll be e-mailed by one of our staffers with the results. Don't worry, we won't make any of the emberassing mistakes public (yet...)!
The test will be refreshed once or twice a month and will contain 70% ground and 30% aireal vehicles. Go and have a shot at it!

Take care!


PS. If you have any comments as to the function and/or layout of the test, please let me know!
Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 10:36:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

The difference between the 6.5-06 and the 6.5x284 is in the accuracy. The 6.5x284 seems to have the edge in that department. I may get some arguments over this but from talking to the 1000yd boys they say the 06 will not shoot with the 284 period!! That was the quotes from several of them. Also the 284 case does "NOT" have a belt on it. It is also my understanding from some of the guys I talked with that the 6.5x284 tends to be a tad faster than the 06, hope this helps.
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 12:00:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
Topic: Material Test

Stephan - you should also ask the 'material testees' to provide their input on where they would try to hit those targets with regard to vulnerabilities.


Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 15:32:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Steve, Pat and anyone that might care;
I have a long history with the 284 case starting in 1964 I think when I got my first 6mmX284. I havent owned a 6.5X284 but it should have the same vel. as the 6.5X06 as they are about the same case cap., 60 grs., but the 284 case should give you better accuracy as it is shorter, you know the bench resters say short and fat is where its at, so it has a shorter powder col. and should light the powder more consistant. Win. brass for the 284 is IMO great brass and I don't see the need for the more costly Norma.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 16:01:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the imput on the 284 case. I do have a question though, some of the 1000 yard boys I talked to said the WW 284 cases was really inconsistant. My 6.5x284 is just that right now. I am working on loads for it with the WW brass and it is not picky about loads and will shoot most loads I have tired well but then the next time it will shoot a pattern instead of a group. Go from a .4 to a .8 with the same exact load, its really fruatrating!! I was hoping it was the brass but maybe it isn't. Thanks!!
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 16:15:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have finally assembled my tactical rifle. I need advice on what paint to use to camoflage it. I was going to apply the paint using an airbrush. Does anybody have experience witht this technique? Any other advice is also appreciated.

Thanks for in advance for everybody's help.
The Shooter <>
TX, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 16:52:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi everyone, just a few comments on the Basic Precision Rifle Sniper training course held at Badlands Training Center. First, thanx for the webmaster of this site for having that kind of link on this homepage.

Now, the course was covered over 4 day period with lotz & lotz of info & material. The range experience was awesome. Bobby and Steve are simply excellent! One of the best things I liked was that lot of individual attention was given. Being a total amature...I had to learn lot. I think that the greatness of a teacher lies in explaining things on the level of the student, which is what they did. I really appreciate their patience.

The course was layed out perfectly, with a perfect balance between theory & practical. Ofcourse I just can't wait to attend the Advance course.

I would recommend it as a must attend basic sniper class. If you need more info about what you will learn if you attend this course then I'd be glad to pass it on. Again, thanx Bobby & Steve.

Regards, Mir.
Mir Uzair <>
Sherman, TX, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 21:01:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Not that I have a suspicious mind or anything, but have any of the people who have been mentioning "Badlands" here recently (5 so far?) been requested by someone to come post their messages here? These posts seem, well, unusual.
Dave <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 04, 2000 at 23:24:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
For those who would/have taken me to task for recommending that most would be better off to spend their money on Leupolds. As much as I would love to admit there are other good scopes out there. My remarks were directed to those in doubt. A lot of people don't know that much about picking a scope. IF there is anyone out there that knows of a better scope model for model year for year for all purposes throughout their line. Lighter and better optics and resonable prices with back up service. Please speak now. This old man would like to find a better one!
B.Rogers <>
USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 00:05:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Is there anyone out there playing arround with heavy bullets 75-80gr in the 22-250. Which Twist 1-8 or 1-9 ? lets say 26" of barrel. Any help would be apreciated. I am thinking about playing around with this one my self and any knowledge I can get from you guys would be helpfull. Load Data Etc... Thanks in Advance.
George <GAP>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 00:57:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
Any word yet from the guys trying the 6.5-284? Good, bad, indifferent?
Barrel wear, etc?

Wanting to rechamber my 270 Sendero with something new and exciting, possible erotic.
Bolt <>
USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 01:02:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE: Badlands Training

I think that the reason we have all posted something here about the
training course we attended is because this is the site that gave us
the information about the course, and also because I think for all of
us it was a positive experience - and we would like to see Bobby and
Steve be successful in their new venture.

I think that the quality of training at Badlands will speak for itself
if you attend, and I'll just bet that you will see the same sort of positive comments from the next class of students.

Best Regards,

Drew Wood
Drew Wood <>
Newport, AR, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 04:15:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

To Bill R. Re: better scopes
Well Bill, since you asked, I think the old Weaver T series steel scopes are a better scope all around. I especially like the T-10 scope with the plain duplex crosshairs. There is something about the dimensions of this crosshair that make them better rangefinders than even the big Springfields. No mil-dot master to mess with, no complicated formulas to remember. The repeatability of adjustmenst are unmatched by any scope ever made. There are 2 simple modifications that need to be made to make them better for tactical use. One mod. is to label the parallax setting with a labelmaker for different ranges. the other is to shim the bottom of the elevation turret so that when the elevation is all the way down it is set for a short range zero. Another practical mod. is to glue a small blob of epoxy just above the 0 setting so that it can be felt in the dark. If you set the 0 for 300 yards, then 1 revolution of the elevation dial will cover everything up to 675 yards using loads of M118LR ballistics. the second revolution will cover from 700 to 900 yards. To be fair, the glass is not as clear as my Leupolds. But then again, I never paid more than 250 for a used T-10. I own 3 of them and am still looking for more.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 04:16:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Re: Badlands Training. Known Steve Suttles for 4 years and have taught for Bobby. Neither is a cheese dick. If their students are posting on here its because they are happy. Its called "word of mouth". What's so strhost about that?

Gooch <>
USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 04:33:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi everyone, Just wanted to add few more lines as I think I missed the main point...thinking that it was already understood. The intention behind my previous mail was to appreciate the info on this homepage(as I learnt about the Badlands course from the link mentioned under 'Training' here). I also think that sharing the info with the 'sniper community' might even be helpful for people who are seriously looking for some formal training in this field. And not to mention that there might be people out there who might also need to know how the course & instructors were...U never hurts to have some additional info. And I guess hearing it from different people is like getting different eye-witness accounts from different people about the same incident:-) I hope this helps. Take care....
Mir Uzair <>
Sherman, TX, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 04:35:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hi everyone, Just wanted to add few more lines as I think I missed the main point...thinking that it was already understood. The intention behind my previous mail was to appreciate the info on this homepage(as I learnt about the Badlands course from the link mentioned under 'Training' here). I also think that sharing the info with the 'sniper community' might even be helpful for people who are seriously looking for some formal training in this field. And not to mention that there might be people out there who might also need to know how the course & instructors were...U never hurts to have some additional info. And I guess hearing it from different people is like getting different eye-witness accounts from different people about the same incident:-) I hope this helps. Take care....
Mir Uzair <>
Sherman, TX, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 04:35:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
I want to get some information about anti-sniping.
Which book is the best?
Could you tell me some important point on anti-sniping
on the email?
Alex <>
Hong Kong, China - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 07:18:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have never had that problem with Win. 284 brass or any other brass that I can remember. When I buy new brass I load and shoot it and any flyers I throw the case away as the bullet, powder, and primer are gone and the only thing I have left from the flyer is the case. Out it goes!! You might try 20 cases and load and shoot them three or more times all with the same load and see if you get any changes. If it shoots bad one day then shoots good the next I would be looking for something other than the brass as it is not brass. I have never had a 6.5X284 but it should be a great cal. I use the 6mmX284 at long range, 1000++++ yds and it is great.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 14:27:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm not in the Marines but I will be here when I get out of high school. I help the recruiters and I want to be a scout/sniper
Justin Hess
Justin Hess <>
Republic, Missouri , USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 16:17:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
I hope after the June class Jarrett and I get as many good notes posted here as Badlands Training has. It's good to see so many students happy. You guys must be good or we would have heard some bad. Dont be suspicious of all good things posted you liked the sling didn't you? LOL How long before you ordered one Dave?

Speaking of slings, anyone waiting for two weeks I am sorry. The only day I got out of bed was this last Sunday so I could make an ass out of myself at the Sac. Mudville Shoot and then I went straight back to bed. Had a 103 fever by the time I got home. Doctor says I should be better in a few days. If I keep taking my horse pills that is. Dee, if I hit the head three times it was a fluke.

Pablito, I received the new Springfield 10X Scope on Monday. I hopefully will be able to egt out next week and shoot with it. One thing for certain is they have changed the turretts and how they work. This one has the most positive clicks I have ever felt on a scope period. If it works correctly I will let you know. Stay away from sheep!

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 16:25:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

I intend to do just that, if the damn wind ever quits blowing!! Blowing 35 to 40 today and gusting to 50mph. Its going to be a hot, windy summer I guess. I will let you know how I come out,knowing me and my Irish temper I will probably come home with about two rounds of brass, if I am lucky(HA). Thanks again for the input!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 16:31:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

I sent the 700 PSS to a Remington repair center. If you recall the action and barrel were off center to the left when seated in the stock. Many of you e-mailed and said it probably was a crooked block in the HS stock. Well, they shaved some metal off the receiver lug and bedded the lug area. I'm assured that this will not affect mounting the action in another stock - like the AICS one I just bought. Any feedback or comment is appreciated.

breakpoint <>
USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 16:38:27 (ZULU) (your host address:


A quick review of the archives over the last year or so will reveal my trials and tribulations with my 700 PSS, it shipping with both a bad stock and a crown. I sent it back and they kept it for 45 days, only to send the rifle back with the same visibly bad crown again, claiming that it shot 1/2 MOA with Remningtom Match ammo, when it wouldnt go 2 MOA with my handloads. Total BS. I ended up crowing and bedding it in Marinetex myself in order to get it to work. The expereince has got me to shopping for Steyrs for my next rifle. If I hadnt worked as a 'smith in years past and couldnt fix all this myself, where the hell would I be then?

Are you saying that they somehow modified the existing lug and then glassed it into the stock? In what way? How can you screw up the recoil lug on a 700 to begin with? Its a piece of freakin' plate with a hole drilled in it! Sounds like you drew the same alleged 'smith at the factory that I did. If they have done what it sounds like they have done, I'd say that you have been done wrong. I also cant say wether or not it will now drop into another stock and fit up properly. It is becoming increasingly clear to my eyes that the whole concept of a drop-in stock is a non-starter for me. As far as I am concerned, they *all* need glassing, even the vaunted HS Precision product!


Thomas Simpson, who is increasingly miffed at Remington <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 17:22:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Mike: a couple of questions.
First off, which Springfield scope did they send? I'm hoping (but betting not) a first gen. The lighted reticle one? I'm REALLY interested in hearing what your comparissons are. Second off, while you're in bed getting over the bug, how about whipping me up a sling for my M1A (it has the regular commercial sling swivel studs, no swivels)? Just dowse it in alcohol before sending it off :-)
Get better, looking forward to June!
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 17:39:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am getting in late on this movement, but the action just started April 3. The basic idea is to send a tea bag and a copy of the 2nd Amendment to appropriate members of congress, as well as your own representatives. Go to if you want a cut-paste form letter that is pretty good. If anyone out there thinks this is a waste of time, I am sure you would have had plenty of company when the original idea came up a couple of hundred years ago. Luckily a handful of men got off their asses, ignored the "waste of time" crowd, and followed their hearts. The rest of the story is history and the reason we are now U.S. citizens. On the way home from work today, go buy 100 tea bags, 100 stamps and envelopes. Take one evening and make a difference. If you are feeling particularly agitated about the S&W extortion, buy 200! Ask your neighbors if they will sign on if you do all the work. If you are looking for deserving recipients of your tea bags, start with the following: Boxer, Barbara (D - CA) 112 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Feinstein, Dianne (D - CA) 331 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Kennedy, Edward (D - MA) 315 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Lautenberg, Frank (D - NJ) 506 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Schumer, Charles (D - NY) 229 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Lott, Trent (R - MS) 487 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 McCain, John (R - AZ) 241 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Biden Jr, Joseph (D - DE) 221 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Daschle, Thomas (D - SD) 509 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Dodd, Christopher (D - CT) 444 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Hopefully, the guys below will show Congress the piles of mail they got: Smith, Bob (R - NH) 307 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Gramm, Phil (R - TX) 370 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Hatch, Orrin (R - UT) 131 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Inhofe, James (R - OK) 453 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510 Barr, Bob (R - GA) 1607 Longworth House Office Bldg. Washington, DC 20515 Here's where you can get your local Senator's address: This one's for the Representatives. Maybe there's a better one, but I don't have a URL: How about each of you contacting your state gun orgs and ask them to spread the word via their network. Do this, persuade others to join you, and we will hopefully see it get some coverage on the national news (well maybe Fox). Go ahead and send one to Gore as well, just so we can see how he will respond. Might just freak him out and get him started on some anti-tea agenda.
Brent Allen <>
USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 19:50:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
I too am curious about the shaving of the recoil lug. Are you sure they shaved the recoil lug and not the bedding block??? If they did shave the recoil lug it will not fit right in any stock that you put it into!!! I cannot imagine them doing that and what they hoped to accomplish by shaving the recoil lug. If they did shave the recoil lug you need to ship it back to them to install a new recoil lug.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 21:16:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thomas S.
On the Remington action thingy. Have been down this ally myself. You received good advice from one of the posters. Go to Wal-Mart buy one of the $345.00 Remington ADL rifles remove the barrel and build what you want. I am playing with a switch barrel myself. On the same action I have a .308, 22PPC, 6mmBR, and a .243 Ackley Improved all of which shoot better than I can ( in the mid .3s to.4s). The neat part is I have 4 calibers (plus action wrench & bbl vise)for much
less than the cost of a custome rifle.The only draw back is you have to stay with parent cartridge head size (big deal).

Geoffrey D.
D--n straight! I have been fooling with "Long Shooters" for neigh onto 50 yrs. now and I aint seen a true commercial drop-in stock yet!
I have 2 (read two) H.S.Precision Police stocks but a little Steel Bed Woke them up beleave me! Sides wha the heck! glas bed is cheap and can take a 1 moa shooter and turn it into a stick that can do the low .3s


Vernon Hamner <>
Houston, TX, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 21:17:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sheesh, sorry if I bent anyone out of shape. I was just asking if the "Badlands" posters had been prompted, that's all, and I'm certainly willing to take their answers ("no") at face value.

I was curious because the messages didn't seem to follow the typical pattern of posts that I had previously seen, say after several Rosterfarians had attended a class at SMTC. Of course, given the people who have been to SMTC it may have been *they* who were the unusual ones! :)

Again, I was curious if the posters had been prompted and so I asked. No disrespect was intended, so you guys can drop out of Condition Red and check the incoming whenever you feel like it...

Dave <>
Applying Bactine in San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 21:37:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

Alex, you might be searching for the wrong thing, here they call it counter-sniping.
John Plaster's book the ultimate sniper is probably best known and has some information on it.
In order to function as a counter-sniper it is necessary to know sniping and have a complete knowledge of
sniper tactics. Otherwise one is best advised to proceed with caution. counter sniping can be very hazardous to your health of course. You might try the Marine and Army Manuals if you haven't already.
Steve; my man, funny you should come up with that. The first good rig I ever owned was an old 700 Remington .244 (6mm to kids like Gooch and Pablito. "incoming shields up Mr. Spock") with a T-10 Weaver, There were those who were impressed with it. He's right men the internals were super but at late evening it was a turd!
Of course he understands that I was talking about a whole line of scopes for beginning shooters or those who weren't well versed in picking scopes for Tactical or Tactical games use. And it would still be hard to find a better overall line than the Leupold but all makers have had their "finest hours". Perhaps this TASCO Super Sniper is their finest hour, but I fear that there will be those who will compromise even within the TASCO line and come up with... you guessed it... more turds! What happened to the .244 well, I discovered the Remington 40X .222 Magnum about that time.
Bill Rogers <brogers@>
USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 23:37:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
Can anyone tell me what the differance is between Leupold rings and bases, and the MK4 rings and bases. Are the MK4 worth the extra money? Was thinking of putting a Leupold 6.5-20x50 mildot on a Rem 700 PSS 308 and was trying to decide which rings and bases to go with TKANKS Doug
Doug <>
USA - Wednesday, April 05, 2000 at 23:39:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tom and Jerry,

I haven't picked up the rifle yet and maybe I misunderstood him. He said he shaved and the lug and bedded the stock -all under warranty. He also said that it wouldn't affect mounting the action in another stock. I was a little pissed off because I told him at the outset that if the block was crooked then I wanted another stock. I planned on replacing it anyway and then selling the newly replaced stock. That's how all this started. I couldn't sell a stock with a crooked block in good conscience so I figured I would have it replaced and then sell it. The rifle has been there for a month already - now I'm thinking screw the warranty, I want the rifle back!
breakpoint <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 01:46:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

He said he shaved THE lug and bedded the stock - all under warranty
breakpoint <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 01:48:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Doug, I have both and the fit and finish of the Badgers far exceeds the Mark 4's.
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 02:44:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
Doug, think I read your post wrong.

If you were asking about the Loopyaholder standard rings and bases, they will not hold up under extreme wannabe or real live sniper stuff and will not take the beating and banging that goes with it.

In order of preference:

Leupold Standard
Leupold Mark 4

Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 02:50:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Damn, wish I could just edit a post.

Doug the order of preference is

1. Badgers
2. Mark 4's
3. Standard
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 02:52:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry need to vent, my frustration meter is pegging red.
I ordered an M40 from a familiar name here. I ordered last September and have been clear in multiple conversations and correspondence that I needed that rifle in mid March for a Mid April training evolution.

Begining January, at the builder's suggestion, I called from time to time to verify we were still on track for the mid March delivery. After the first week of MArch passed, I started to get nervous - we have that 10 day wait here in the California Republic.

After calling every 5 days in March, the builder finally got my rifle out on the last day he could for me to clear the ten day waiting period. Guess how much time that leaves for me to break in the rifle using one of the many suggested methods. One day. How much time does that leave me to get familiar with that rifle before dragging it to training: That's right, it gives me SQUAT.

I called my FFL to verify he received it and he said it came over without damage... and without accessories. Things like a travel case, bag, and SCOPE. If I don't call the builder he will most likely ship that scope via snail method. No scope=no zero=no rifle=no training=loss of a few hundred bucks that I eat because I had faith that he would delivery anywhere near what he promised.

He is a nice guy, very courteous and professional on the phone, but does not come close to delivering what he promises. If the training is a go, I will be okay. But if that rifle is not built like supreme machine it is tauted as, I will be back with his name and business on every board. He has not giving me anytime to troubleshoot even the minor problems. He has old friends here and you've seen his name before. Some of you already know him.

If you are about to have a rifle built and are curious, e-mail me. You can not stay on this guys ass enough to have him pull through. I pains me to say that as he is genuinely a good guy. His gunsmithing has yet to be proven (to me anyways). Maybe I should have just went with Jerry and stayed close to home.

I will keep you posted.
-S <>
CA, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 04:16:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

Not to sound like a Jerry Rice advertisement again, but I can't resist! I went up to his place today and did all the proper paperwork so I can get my new fancy super duper rifle. It is pretty much like the one Mike Miller reviewed for this site a while ago with the exception of the stock. I decided on the A-3 instead of the A-4. It looked fantastic! I haven't shot it yet, but I have shot Mike's and I have seen Mike shoot when his foot wasn't hurt or he when he didn't have the flu, or when the moon was full, and he shoots the Jerry rifle great!
These next 10 days will crawl by until I can pick it up and start breaking it in! I was actually so impressed I ordered another one in .300 Win Mag. Bottom line from me on Nor-Cal; great guy, great service, and great rifle and no I don't get a price break!

Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 05:01:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a M1A and would like to put a nice tactical scope on it as well as a bi-pod. I have a Rem. 700vs .308 with a harris bi-pod and like the Harris a lot. Does Harris make an adapter for the M1A or do I have to drill the stock to put a swivel stud. If the latter is true I think I'll stick with my butt pack and pass on the bi-pod. I guess if any other quality companies make a nice set up I would go for that......any sugestions?

P.S. Any sugestions on a decent scope? I want one with the turret mount focus knob and mil-dot reticle, straight 10X. Reticle size is not real important so long it's in the 40-50mm range. Oh-yeah, I'd like to stay in the 500-700 dollar range.
Thank you for any help,
Bruce Emens <>
Henderson, Nevada, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 09:29:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

I've been coming to the site for some time and decided it was finally time to let you know I think it's great. Really like it and have gotten some great info. I'm just curious as to the inflatable sheep thing. I know everyone gets lonely, but why have the sheep when there's a doll out there that's more realistic? Then again, the blow up will probably fit in a drag bag better, hehehe.

One other thing, B. Douglas, can't send any money yet on the Squirrel Utopia, but how'd you like a partnership? :)

Keep up the great work SC Staff.

R. D. <>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 10:14:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 10:17:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
(Pardon my double 6 AM double post...)


These H-S stocks, (and other mass produced) stocks aren't perfect. It's not posible to make them that way, at a price that you can afford.

The guns are massed produced by one company, and the stocks are mass produced by another. Considering that, they do a very good job for the price (muct of which, is liability insurance).
Every good shooter I know, glass beds the H-S stocks, whether it's a PSS, an M-24, or a sporter stock... I've done three, and bought a used one that was already done.

Winchester "thermal Goop" beds their H-S stocks at the factory... it's just a fact of life, and really applies to ALL stocks... if you want to most out of it, glass it!!!

As far as shaving the lug... there are often Burrs on the lugs (they are stamped out), and he meant shaving the burrs off... something else that knowledgable shooters do. It means nothing as far as puting the action in another stock in the future.

Remington will not replace the lug, they will junk the barreled action, and replace it, and they won't do it because there is a burr on the lug! Remington does not EVER rebarrel, or re-lug a gun, for labor costs, and liability reasons... they throw them in the hopper.

If they are willing to clean up the aluminum block, clean up the lug burrs, and glass bed it for you... FOR FREE... don't be a dumb bunny... take the deal!!!
Go have a beer and cheeseburger on them... you're getting a lot of expensive labor for free.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 10:33:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

The range in Ca. you might be looking for is outside of Clovis in a small area called Friant. It is the Fresno rifle and pistol club, I have shot there a few times visiting. The long range range is closed except for a certain few members (1000m).
Good Luck!
Bruce Emens <>
Henderson, NV, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 10:37:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mistah Coburn,

M24's from Remington have no bedding resin applied to the HS stocks. The receiver just goes into the stock and is torqued down to 65 inch pounds. This allows the user to take the receiver in and out as much as he wants without fear of cracking bedding. I don't think accuracy suffers too much. I've seen M24's with good ammo (not special ball mind you) hammer sub 1/2 moa all day.

Remington might do some stroking of the stocks at the factory but I don't think so. THey appear to be pretty much stock...stocks?

gooch <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 12:05:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

BRUCE- Try the Versa-Pod (from Keng's among others)with available
adaptor for M1A that replaces the original gas cyl. plug instead
of installing a swivel stud through hole im stock like a Harris.
Be sure to read about the reviews and the mods recommended for this
installation in "Hot Tips" first. My M1A is set up for both types
of bipods for versatility- it works great. As far as the choice of
a scope in your price range check out the Tasco SS10X42 ($300.) and
the Tasco SS10X42M ($400.) S.W.F.A. should have both in stock. Don't
let brand-name phobia's turn you off- these are GREAT scopes. Just
check out the reviews in "Hot-Tips" and then pull up the enlightening
discussion about sniper-type scopes in the archives!
Al S.
PALISADE, CO, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 13:01:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm not a smith and knowing this I posted my 700 PSS problem on this board for feedback. After reviewing the e-mails, posts and info I got from other smiths, I made the decision to send the rifle to Remington. The block is slightly crooked in my stock and the gunsmith working on it agreed this was the problem. He didn't say there were burrs on the lug which was causing it float off center. Knowing the problem, I don't think it's too much to ask to have a defective stock replaced and fixing the stock problem by correcting the lug isn't my idea of a fix. Obviously, I hit a sore point with you but a dumb bunny I am not.....
breakpoint <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 13:13:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

S or, your e-mail is bouncing.
Please contact me.
Jim Liles <>
PDX, Or, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 15:20:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
You are wrong about replacing barrels. I have had two replaced at Remington for customers that had bad barrels. You are right about having Remington do the other work for free.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry Rice <>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 16:02:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mista Gooch,
How are you?? Could be comparing apples and oranges here. I have had a couple of Remington VSs and worked on others that had stock problems, action binds up in the stock or barrel touched the side of the stock etc. These were problems that I corrected myself with a dremel tool and bedding but it is a pain when you buy a new gun and have to work on it to get it to shoot or fit in the stock properly. However I have never had a H&S stock that I purchased from H&S itself have any of the problems that I encountered with the factory Remington stocks even though I know there made by the same company. I am sure that the M-24 stocks have the same checks by H&S that there custom stocks do for fit etc. Its probably hard to hand check and fit each stock on a production line so I am sure this is where the problems come up. I have to agree with what your saying but Pablito is right(AS USUAL) they will shoot better and more consistant with bedding but from your stand point that wouldn't make them GI proof, so the extra bit of accuracy is far out weighed by the ability to take it apart and put it back togeather with out any problems.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 16:51:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jim Liles - That email address that is bouncing is using "" as the domain, and I'm pretty certain that there is no such domain. I'm guessing that he may have meant

And while I'm pretty sure I know who "S" is talking about, I'm not 100% certain. I don't recall his rifles being tauted as "supreme machines" though, so maybe I'm wrong.

"S", if you have a beef with someone and you're going to air it in public, might I suggest that you actually tell us his name (and yours too, while we're all being open and honest here.) Otherwise you may be making a lot of people who have rifles on order from different sources (TBA, IBA, AT, etc.) nervous for no reason. And if you don't say who it is, it's not like anyone else (like me) can back up your experiences with their own. Just a suggestion.

I feel your pain. I had two new custom 1911s from two different sources being built that I wanted to take to a pistol class a few years back. I had a lot of money invested into taking that class (deposit, travel, vacation from work, ammo, etc.) Neither source knew that I had a second pistol on order from elsewhere, just in case, but both knew about the deadline I had. Pistol #1 (a GSP from the Gunsite gunsmithy) showed up on time, actually a little early, and worked great. This allowed me to test fire the pistol and find out that the Federal ball ammo I had puchased didn't function worth beans (many rounds wouldn't slip into my .45ACP cartridge gage.) I scrounged up some money and bought two cases of Winchester ball ammo, which I tested and it worked fine. Pistol #2 showed up at the last minute and the work on it was awful - too many problems to list here!

Pistol #2 came from a really nice guy, but I would have been totally screwed if I had relied on him and I had to use that gun. I learned a lesson there and now I don't sign up for classes if I don't already have the gun I'm planning to take.

But now I gotta get back to work, but at least I can think about going to the range tomorrow...

Dave <>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 16:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike Sheehan, thanks for all the support, foot hurts, Flu any other excuses? LOL Crap lately I am a Doctors Dream

On factory Remington PSS and M24's. I have seen many a PSS with bedding blocks slightly off center. General fix is to open the channel and bed them. M24 is the same. Remington does nothing to the stocks. If the have a problem they throw them in the junk pile.

Pablito is right that many shooters bed the HS Stocks. I was at a comp years ago and an FBI Guy looked at mine and asked how I got it to shoot so well. I told him I bedded it. Marine Tex Rules! A few years later I was at an advanced class and saw an FBI rifle. It was bedded. I asked the instructor what was up and he said the FBI was bedding all the HS Stocked rifles. Now that I have been playing around with many different stocks I have found that most of the problems associated with the HS Stocks was caused by not using a troque wrench on them. Once I started using a torque wrench everything settled down. I dont bed the HS Stocks anymore.

As to Remington junking complete actions for a bad bbl. Pablito three years ago I had a bad bbl and they replaced the bbl. I dont know if this was because I went to thier Armoror School, I am a cop or just because some idiot forgot to plug the bbl before he Park'd the whole thing. I just know they changed the bbl. Matter of fact they changed over 100 bbl's that former employee park'd the insides of. I know they have stopped doing custom work on non custom shop rifles. I didn't know they stopped fixing thier mistakes. Thats a shame used to be you could send them a 700 and have the action trued and a 40X or M24 bbl put on, not anymore. They spend too much time with the race car these days.

I would get to ticked off over a stock that had the bedding block slightly off center I would just bed that one and open the channel. I have done this before and didn't see it cause any problems.

The Springfield Scope they sent is a straight 10X with Mildots, Lit Reticle, and what they call the MIlitary Turretts. Pretty much like MKM1's, but damm they must have used some serious click adjusters. This thing has no mush when you adjust the turretts. Optics are fair to good. I can't wait to get to the range and try it out.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 17:33:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 17:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone used nickel (I assume nickel plated brass?) for reloading? is there any benefit?
Grogan <>
USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 18:45:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
I am considering buying a Tasco SS10x42 Super Sniper scope and have located one at I know nothing about this site and would like to know if anyone has purchased from them or had dealings pro or con with them. Thanks....................
aycockk <>
Lawton, Ok., USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 19:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
Some tips for those considering having a rifle built. I've almost completed my first custom rifle and have spent considerably more than planned. Get on the phone or web and talk to those with knowledge. If possible, try different stocks and see which fits you best (you really cant go wrong with a McMillan though). Talk to whatever smith you decide to go with (the better ones will ask you what you need, use for rifle, etc). Because there are hundreds of smiths out there I just asked the barrel manufacturer who he recommended (Obermeyer all the way - well worth the wait). Plan on spending a lot of money and waiting a long time.

This is what I spent so far just on parts:
$595 New PSS(Jerry's Sports Center)
$640 Leupold 4.5-14x50 LRT (Jerry's Sports Center)
$233 Badger rings and base(Brownells)
$195 Jewell HVR trigger(Russ Haydens Shooters Supply)
$352 McMillan A3 stock (John Baier - TS&S)
$ 60 Harris swivel bipod (Jerry's Sports Center)
$370 Obermeyer 5R barrel (fluted & cryo'd) "Boots" Obermeyer
$190 Dakota Arms steel floor plate (Brownells)
$ 50 Turner sling (Dillon)
$115 Starlight rifle case (Brownells)
$ 20 Holland oversized recoil lug (Brownells)

After gunsmithing, cleaning supplies, etc, I'll probably have $3500 invested (A little more than I thought). I got dealer cost on most of the above items so plan on spending more. I have several resourses available so if you need help email me, I'm sure I could save you time and money. Good luck.

MG <>
Ptld, Or, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 21:58:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

You were right about my e-mail address. I just switched from my college server to two weeks ago and still make the mistake on my e-mail from time to time.

You are also right about my rifle not being called a "supreme machine". Those were my words, not his. It has been called a great rifle by a number of websites though and I am hopeful that will still be true. In reality I am just hopeful the rifle is of higher quality then the customer service I received. If you have a guess, it is probably correct. I have received e-mail from two others visitors to the Duty Roster. Both knew who I ordered my rifle from and both had experiences that mirrored mine. Including the time delays and frustration levels.

I am hesitant to post all the details (name, busness, etc) because he is a good guy and has a mortgage and a family to take care of just like the rest of us. Chances are if you are about to drop a few grand on a rifle, you wouldn't mind sending out an e-mail to get a reference anyway. I just thought I should get more for my dollars and more from a professional. Perhaps I was simply mislead or misinformed on the individuals reputation before I sent in my check. So much for research, I guess.

-Steve <>
CA, USA - Thursday, April 06, 2000 at 22:16:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Remington 700 DM Commentary:

Well, since I do not want to be left out, I will add my two cents on my 700. My rifle barrel is angled off to the right too. I was that way two years ago and still is today. The only modification I performed was sanding out the barrel channel. Now I can slide 3 one dollar bills through it with no resistant. I just reconfirmed my zero last month and out of 5 shot group, from the prone, at the Sunnyvale Rod and Gun Club, I shot a .316 inch group.

I must admit that I love my rifle and even though it is a standard off the shelf 700 -- with only two modifications on it, a trigger job and me sanding down the barrel channel -- it has shot like a champ. When it doesn't, it's user error usually. Well there is my two cents.

I was at my local book store today and I ran accross a book about the French's special forces. They hand some interesting and good photos on the French snipers. What I found interesting was that they used the 3D Ghillie suit. Yeap, just like the one youn used at the 1999 Carlos Hathcock sniper match at SM. The French snipers did not construct wookie suits as we do here in the US. Thought you might like to know.

Semper Fi...
Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 00:34:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jerry Rice...

On the Remington barrels thing... maybe yes and maybe no... and I don't doubt you for a moment.
They may swap barrels for a smith... but I sent back a 700 HB in 7mm/08 to be rebarreled to .308, and a .222 rem, to be re-barreled to .223, and I got new barreled actions with new serial numbers, and I called them to bitch.
I was in New Yawk City at the time, and they were "registered" to stop crime... so getting back new serial numbers was a "felony".

I called Remington, and asked where my original guns were and they said "Well son... lemme put it this way"... the short of it was he said it was cheaper to send an already barreled action, than it was to have some one do the work. It took two months for Remington to convince the New Yawk PD that the guns had been distroyed, and new ones had been sent to replace them.

Mista Gooch...
I wasn't talking about issue M-24's from Remington... though they are hand fitted, but not glass bedded.
I was talkin about M-24 stocks from H-S, that didn't go to Remington, but go to the rest of the world.

The burrs I was refering to are the tear marks/stamping marks on the right and left side of the lug, and a letter, or number that is stamped on the backside of the recoil lug. When the Rem guy said he was doing the lug, he wasn't changing the lug shape to realign the barrel... he was removing the tool marks and the stamped letter, on the back.
If you glass the lug without smoothing these down, it may be impossible to get it out of the action. I wasn't implying that you were a real dumb bunny... just take the free work, and run with it.
It's about $200+ of good labor that you don't have to pay for.

A friend on this site sent me a picture of a sniper, and spotter in the bush, taken from about 4 feet away, and said that the spotter was wearing a 3-D suit, and the shooter was in a Wookie suit, but the picture only had a shooter in a Wookie suit, so I e-mailed him back and asked for the right picture... yep, you got it, you couldn't see the spotter in the 3-D suit from 4 feet away. He had to tell me how many leaves to count over from the corner, and I finely saw it. This year, I won't have 10 pounds of Auto supply green paint on it! :))


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 01:29:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am a hardcore paintballer. I love the game, the thrill, adreniline rush, and the tactical part of it. The other thing I love is being the sniper. I bought some '3D Cammo' from a hunters mag, but I'd like to upgrade to a chillie suit. Is there anywhere in Minnestoa, or on-Line (if not in MN) where I (a civy) can buy one? If so, how much?

Bjorn 'ZeroGravity' Iverson <>
Afton, MN, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 01:48:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

someone please reply quick!!!
i just ran one of those stainless coil brushes through my bore
and it made the most godawful sound i ever heard come from a firearm!
i know it was the right caliber brush and i checked it against my bronze one to be sure
did i just mess up my bore?!?
anyone who knows anything about these hoppes coil brushes please e-mail me so i can finish cleaning my gun.

drkg <>
USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 02:40:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Dear Jeff Babineau,

I would like to ask if you can provide either a picture or a sketch
of the mounting rail modification you described for the Choate USS.
Also is sanding a requirement prior to painting.

Thanks and keep up the excellent reviews.

Greg <>
Miami, FL, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 02:56:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

I need sources for some, can anyone help? I am doing a Remington 700 in a McMillen M40A1 (refurbed from John Baier) and I am considering installing pillars also. Decided to use Remington trigger guard to save $$$ for now. If I feel the need, I will get a modified Winchester or DD Ross later and retro-fit. Any comments advice or help? I figure that it is sold in bulk type quantities. Any one out there able to supply enough Marine Tex to complete the job?

Thanks for any help provided.
Ateve <>
South West, Pennsylvania, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 06:01:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Another question,
Where do I find Badger MWG, etc. rings and bases? I haven't seen anyone post this lately, and I figure it would be easier to ask than search archives, I am only getting 3 hours sleep per night as it is. This 34 year old man is looking forward to a job, this school shit sucks!
Steve <>
south west , pennsylvania, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 06:08:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
3.500 $ for only a tuned Rem 700 ???? you could get two real rifles like a Sako TRG 21 and a used Mauser 86SR for that!
Damn, I payed 2.900 $ for my Mc Millan stocked Mauser in 1990. Thats only 290 $ a year and a lot less than the cost of ammo I unload each year. I´m a little over 6300 rounds through it, but it still groups better than I can shoot under field conditions. I may put a new barrel in when it goes much over 1/2 MOA. The original barrel is made out of a hammer forged Delcour blank.

In general I figure that the initial cost of a good rifle is less than the cost of the ammo over the years and well worth the initial investment.


Anyone heard of / used L O M Low Observable Material ? I´ve seen a leafy G suit made out of the stuff and the thermal signature is next to nothing when compared to regular BDU´s.
torsten <>
tuning my lawn mower, in sunny and green, germany - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 09:36:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am planning a second project based on either a Dakota 76 or Sako 75 action. I have played with them and both seem tremendously smoother that the 700. The Dakota is extremely expensive ($1200 dealer cost through Brownells) but I like the machining and the controlled round feeding. Can some of you who have experience with the actions give me some feed back. MG
MG <>
USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 11:14:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
I bought a magnum "springer" pellet rifle thinking this would be inexpensive practice. Then I learned that to shoot a springer accurately you ha"spro hold the gun loosely and let it jump. This shooting style is not the same as with my hunting rifle (280 caliber). I am sure I will get good practice shooting with the optics (4 x 12 scope for air guns) but do you think the overall practice with the springer will hurt or improve my shooting skills with the hunting rifle? Thanks,

John Suedbeck <>
USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 11:23:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

kg-That terrible sound was your barrel trying to tell you to lose the stainless brush. About the only use for such a thing is scrubbing rusty gardening tools. Stay with bronze, and a rod guide.
Celt <>
USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 11:42:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
$3500 for a Rem700?

I read about the problems with delivery in time and priceing of custom Rem 700's. My snipingdays are over but I still shoot competitions. If you want to compete at an acceptable level in Norway you're fireing between 6-10000 rounds each year. The top shooters go up to 15-20000 rounds. (.22LR and airrifle not included) The number of round fired each year requires at least one barrelchange. You can't afford the time it takes to let a gunsmith service your rifle. The 700's, M70's, m98's, whatever are outdated as a competitiontool. I'm not talking accuracy but logisics. The shooter has to be in full control. That's why the "new" component-rifles are cleaning up in the different championships in Europe. The shooter can to everything himself on the rifle, including barrelchange.

The component-rifles have another advantage over the old-style rifles. How many of you have seen a new barrel's factory testtarget BEFORE you buy it?

TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Friday, Apave 07, 2000 at 11:43:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

I hate to start another political post, but---

We better watch out!!

Some do gooders have “received reports of communication among companies, web site postings, conversations or threats involving a ban on magazine ads for Smith & Wesson and attempts to discourage lawyers from representing the manufacturer”. Just saw this in the Stars & Stripes from an AP story. Evidently “Prosecutors in at least six states are investigating weather the gun industry is illegally trying to punish Smith & Wesson for agreeing to make its weapons more childproof” Can you believe this crap!

Makes me wonder why it is OK to extort S&W into their folly by suing, but not OK for private companies and people to not do business with Smith because we don’t agree with their policies. AAG!! Makes me wonder if I really want to come back to the states. (Just kidding. All my toys are back home. Two months left and I’ll be shootin again!)

Puzzled in Japan

Doc Mac

Doc Mac <>
Land of No Guns, Japan - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 12:08:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Steve (hockey)

Go here for MWG... they also have A.R.M.S. stuff from Dick Swan.

(sorry, but whenever I do those links, they always wind up at


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 14:54:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

all right guys (and gals!) I need a bit of advise, and it's actually on long range toys! Just three questions.

1. New rifle demands a new cleaning rod. I looked at a "boretech" and it looked really nice, maybe a touch better than Dewey. Just a few bucks more than the Dewey too. Anyone have any firsthand experience, or should I just stick with my coated Deweys?

2. For defeating, or realistically lessening, mirage (not trying to hide optic glint) how long of a sun shade would be best? Before I buy a bunch of stackables, thought I would ask. Someone must have experimented and can give me a length. It's for the Lupita Mk4 M3. I just don't want to purchase too few or too many.

3. On Harris bipods, which is better, the regular type or the leg notch type. I've already decided the height and swivel/fixed thing, just need to know which model is preferred. What's with the leg notches anyway?

I know the "answers are out there", so c'mon and help me out here. I sure appreciate it. See - nothing political here!
Bravo <>
Live by the constitution or move out of, Utah, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 15:36:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the 3 questions:

3) I preferr Harris swivel (prone 13")with detent legs. The detents lock the leg at a specific height. Once locked in the notch they won't slip. I've had the spring loaded legs loosen and slip at lousy unsuspecting times.

2) Mirage tubes. If it's relly hot with no wind, the longer the better. My preference.. Longer also keeps barrel heat from distorting optics. A strip along the length of the barrel like the bench shooters will also help.

1) There's a lot of good cleaning rods out there. Coated are good. Use a bore guide and a one piece rod and it will work best. Better yet use moly coated bullets and you'll clean a lot less.

Anyone going to SMTC HG courses this weekend I'll see you at the Candlewick for a drink.
TonyY <>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 17:17:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

You might check out the Emporium. A guy named Mike manufactures them.
Also you may e-mail me, if you wish, as to other sources. Also plans to make your own. I just live across the river from you. In God's Country. Just kidding on that one. We have enough border hostilities.
John <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 18:56:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
Steve and Pabilito, the website for MWG is .

Semper Fi
Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 19:10:39 (ZULU) (your host address:


will take you directly to them.

For a really good base, check out Richard Near (thanks to "Sinister Dave)... I got one in sand blasted stainless w/ 25 moa of taper, and it's a piece of art.
Plus it has a fair amount of overhang to move scopes forward, for tactical rifles that are shot prone.

Pablito <>
USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 19:56:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

HELP- After having a deal on a BPT mount go south on me, I find
myself in a bind. It seems that it will be "at least 3 months"
before any more are available, and I really want to shoot this M1A
before half of the summer is gone. Does anyone out there have any
experience with the A.R.M.S./MWG, the Entreprise Arms, the Smith
Enterprises, or can you suggest any other mount that I might be
happy with as a second choice to the elusive Brookfield? I'd even
be willing to buy a decent mount now, and purchase the BPT when
available if I feel that it is necessary to do so.

Thanks from a disappointed shooter, AL S.
PALISADE, CO, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 21:34:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

To All, (except you Canadians bent on world domination)
I have just uncovered a sinister plot with my web-surfing.
It appears that Canada is planing to go to war and Conquer the World!
At great risk to my own personal safety, (I live so close to the border) I will give you the classified web site where you can read all about it.)

I am ready as I will ever be for this invasion, but I could use some help. If we can't stop them in Ohio, then it's all over!
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 22:01:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone here have any experience with the Ruger Target mo000 or the Savage 112 BT, 12 BVSS or 112 BVSS? I am going to start building my first long range/ tactical style/ coyote gun and I am comparing information on the Rugers, Savages, Remingtons and Winchesters. Thw caliber will be .308, somewhere in the budget range. Any help, hints, stories or leads here will be greatly appreciated! Thanks all,
Mike Miller 2 <>
Yuma, AZ, USA - Friday, April 07, 2000 at 23:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
MG in Oregon, why spend $600 on a rifle that you are just using for the action? For those of you contemplating such a thing (custom rifle), then be sure to consider the cost of just a bare action/trigger (IMHO, no need to change the excellent Remington factory trigger, just tune it right) for about $300 if you shop around. If you will be butchering a PSS/VS/Sendero, then know that the H-S stock of this sort sells for $205 at dealer cost thru Midway, and the takeoff barrel might fetch $50 or so, esp. from somebody who wants to put it on their own 700 action. That's your consumer rifle 'report' tip for the day. (Report - get it?)

See you at the May 7th Sac'to Long Range Match, fellow northern Kalifornians and visitors. And if any of youse is in the market for a new 8# keg of IMR 4064, I have an extra or two, so please contact me off roster, and we can do the deal ($120/ea). S.F. bay area only, unless you are in the mood for a road trip.
Wills <>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 00:09:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Was wondering why Kevin and Jeff haven't been around here lately. They must be conspiring. Those little rascals.
Actually after reading your post on the Weaver T10 it brought up a couple of questions. How do you go about rangefinding with the Weaver duplex reticle? Is this a trial and error thing? Or do they have a procedure for this. As Leopold does. Also how do you shim the elevation turret? Is this within the realm of a tinkerer? Do you know of a website or if you could give me some insite on this, it would be much appreciated. Thanks
John <>
Hudson, WI, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 00:16:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Marine Tex- Try your local marine or boat shop, it is afterall ment to repair boat hulls. I work in the marine industry and order it from one of our suppliers. I also believe that Brownells now sells it, try them at I have found Brownells Acra-release works great as a release agent for Marine tex.

mike s <>
USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 02:57:21 (ZULU) (your host address:


In my opinion shooting a "springer" pellet rifle is GREAT practice for shooting a "real" rifle. I shoot a Beeman R1 (.177). With good technique it will shoot as well as any gun I own (to about 75-100 yards in good conditions, which is a long ways in "pellet yards"). Yes, "springers" do bounce around a lot in a number of directions. And yes their lock time is measured in "M700 lock years". With all that, if you can shoot a springer consistently from the same positions that you shoot your "real rifle" the hold-squeeze-follow through with your "real rifle" will be be greatly improved. I have a 25 foot range in my garage where I shoot offhand at 0.070" dots. I am a lousy shot off-hand but it is very good practice just the same. Then there are the pocket gophers in my wife's iris. A very tactical type of situation as they push the dirt out of their hole being visible for only a second or two at a time. My advise is to shoot your springer as much as you can, at demanding targets from the postions you shoot your 280, and it will help your shooting a lot. "A can (500 pellets) a week is all we ask."

Good Shooting,
Dee Turner <>
Roseville, CA, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 04:47:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

There is much to be said in favor of bedding HS stocks with Marine-tex. The second place rifle at last months Sac'o'tomato Match was a 700P bedded. The third place rifle was a 700VS LH bedded into a lefty HS M24 style stock. The LH 700VS had the above mentioned factory HS VS block misalignment shortcoming and hideous point-of-aim consistency. The barrel always slapped the barrel channel and the bullets rarely slapped the target. VS wasn't worth the effort salvaging after investigating its offset. Group consistency was improved greatly by switching to the straight blocked HS M24. Then it was bedded and gained further improvement. 65in/lb for assembly. Under rare central valley calm conditions it now shoots sub-MOA out to 1000Y. Both of them thar wonder sticks use dem blurry M3 BDC optics, Harris BRM-S and yucko Fed Match 175 factory loads. Seventh place was the exact same setup, but unbedded. That 700P shoots great that way so go figure.

Dee, Brenneke slugs out of an 870 are much more dramatic on gophers, Not to mention the rototilling results you'd get if you bought the kegs of powder from Wills.

kenya <>
Mt.View, CA, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 07:03:29 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have begun composing a short petition to send to everyone elected body of the United States government I can find. I simply wanted anyones opinion on it, suggested changes, and any interest in signing or helping me distribute it's final form. My email address is posted at the bottom and included in the header information of this post. Thanks.

A petition to the governing bodies of the United States:

We are the “People” as defined by our Constitution. We are not criminals. Your responsibilities are to protect our rights as law-abiding citizens. Not to legislate them out of existence, nor to allow them to be legislated against by the states. The bans passed into law from 1981 to the present day, removing various styles and capabilities from potential for private ownership, indicate you consider us criminals or with criminal intentions. My rights are being restricted or removed due to the actions of others. The definition of which is “injustice.”

I have no problem with the registration of my firearms so long as that process is never used to enforce a ban on law-abiding citizens. I have no problem with required checks to insure I am not a violent criminal or individual with sufficient mental deficiencies as to place into question my capacity to responsibly handle this right. Firearms ownership is as much a privilege as a right. All rights are restricted in some fashion from those who would abuse them or have failed to demonstrate an ability to handle them. By these bans you are assuming the People as a whole do not have the capacity to responsibly handle their Second Amendment rights.

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
-Attributed to Thomas Jefferson

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts."
-Edmund Burke, letter, April 3, 1777, to the Sheriffs of Bristol

The rights of the Second Amendment should be as zealously guarded as the other individual
liberties enshrined in the bill of rights."
-U.S. v. Emerson, U.S. federal court, Northern District of Texas, 1999

"Constitutional rights may not be infringed simply because the majority of the people choose
that they be."
- Supreme Court of the United States, Westbrook v. Mihaly 2 C3d 756

"If you believe the term "militia" means the National Guard then you must believe that
freedom of speech is reserved for the Government Printing Office."

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the Second
Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every
major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what
is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful
-Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary,
United States Senate, 97th Congress, Second Session (February 1982)

The President, the Congress and the Supreme Court have failed in the past 20 years to protect my rights as a law-abiding and peaceful citizen of the United States. Rights guaranteed to me in the Constitution. The ideals presented to me from birth have been cast aside one by one. My rights have been infringed and you have failed to protect them.

Craig <>
Florida, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 09:10:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

John, Re: T-10
The thin opening of the T-10 duplex spans 10 inches at 100 meters. To use this as a rangefinder, all you have to do is estimate the number of inches of the target that fits inside the thin opening.
20 inches =200 meters.
30 inches =300 meters
40 inches =400 meters and so on.
If a six foot target appears smaller than the thin opening then the range is in excess of 720 meters. In which case, you esitmate the number of inches that the target fits between the top post and center crosshair. then double the result.
For example, if 50 inches of target fits between top post and center crosshair, then 50 x 2 = 100. the range is 1000 meters.
--Those folks with a variable powered duplex can do the same thing.
Just figure where you need to set the power setting to get the thin opening to span 10 inches at 100 yards or meters whichever is your preference. and use as above.
To determine the size of the shim that you need to put under the elevation turret, here is how I did it.
Measure the distance between the top of the turret and the bottom of the scope tube with a micrometer when the elevation set to 100 meter zero. Then crank the elevation down until the elevation turret bottoms out. Remeasure. The difference between the 2 readings is the thickness of shim that you need. The inside diameter of the shim shwith be a slip fit to the outside diameter of the elevation turret when the cap is removed. The outside diameter of the shim does not matter too much.
Give these dimensions to anyone with a little hand lathe who likes to tinker. Ask them to make the shim out of Aluminum.
I hope this helps.

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 10:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Wills Radioactive,

I originally purchased the PSS thinking it would satisfy my needs..The whole point of my post was to help anyone else who was thinking of building a rifle...And you're right about the Rem trigger, all of the aftermarket triggers have a very narrow trigger and I prefer the wide Rem (although the feel of the Jewell is very nice). In retrospect, I probably would have bought a standard varmint 700, replaced the stock and trigger, then spent the money on good glass and range time...To anyone in the northwest...May 20th is the Hanford Tactical shoot at the Hanford Nuclear Facility in Tri-Cities, Wa. Usually draws about 60+ law enforc/civilian shooters. You shoot the WA state sniper qual course (various positions out to 300yds). Anyone interested email me and I'll send you the details...MG
MG <>
Ptld, Or, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 10:41:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

Craig.... you did an admirable job on your start of the petition you plan to send to all the Federal official's, and elected members.etc....... However, you must never think even for a moment, that THE 2ND AMENDMENT IS AS MUCH A PRIVELEDGE AS A ...RIGHT!, the 2nd is AN ABSOLUTE right, if you and /or/they think that( which by the way, that is exactly the pablum THEY, are trying to run down our throat's NOW! It WILL be legislated out of existance.......
AS for your (AGREEING and/or/ not minding) if your weapons are REGISTERED, well I think the old quote from history, don't remember who said, (" THOSE WHO DON'T LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT"), that said, ALL countries past who have instituted "REGISTRATION", have eventually had their citizen's weapon's CONFISCATED!!!. And in most cases have then been subsequentially put under a Dictatorship/ or/ Totalitarian form of gov't. And... don't think it CAN'T happen here!. One more "QUOTE", and I'll get off my stump. Someone famous once said" THOSE WHO WOULD GIVE UP LIBERTY FOR THE SAKE OF SAFETY, DESERVE .....NEITHER...SAFETY NOR LIBERTY ".
I think you get my drift, and I apoligize to the reader's of this post for getting OFF TOPIC, but your ill advised wording (IMHO), set my proverbial chcken's loose. But I thank you for your time & effort, and YOUR caring enough to write it at all, if only "more" would do so!!!!.tshoes
tshoes <>
USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 14:36:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Yentlemen, have an opportunity to trade for a NIB Armalite AR-10T Carbine, trade value of ~$1800. Not necessarily impressed with the 100 yard MOA accuracy of the carbine barrel but would consider selling that barrel setup and purchasing 20" barrel for replacement.

Your comments please.
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 14:38:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone tried one of the conversions that will turn a Rem700 from right bolt,right eject to a right bolt, left eject? Saw a pic once, never saw an actual converted rifle. Any one?
Tony White <>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 14:51:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anybody: Has anyone ever had any dealings with the F J VOLLMER CO. ?
I have a couple of rifles to sell,and I know they have been in business a long time. But it doesn't hurt to check with fellow shooters, E-M me w/ any info /or post for all to see. Thanks in advance, tshoes
tshoes <>
USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 18:45:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
I talked to a friend last night who was talking to Knight about thier SR-25 production. The word from Knight was they were way behind because of Remington not suppling quality barrels. The barrels Remington supplied were not up to Knights specs so they were scaped I think he said 58. I guess were not the only ones complaining about Remington stuff.
If anyone is having a hard time finding Rem 700 PSS I know were there are some in stock and not bad prices.
Mike <>
Florence, Mt, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 18:57:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
Specialty Ammo. I saw on the net somewhere and now I can't find it. Some one had 308 tear gas tip rounds for sale. I thought they sounded differant. I thought I might purchase a few rounds just to have, Has anyone seen these anywhere for sale? THANKS Doug
Doug <>
USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 19:41:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Check out this picture.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 21:14:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Marine-Tex is available through Russ Haydon's Shooting supplies for $18.95 (dont know if thats a good price or not)...MG
MG <>
Ptld, Or, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 21:31:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hello Forum Members,
Do any of you happen to know what the scope mount bolt spacing on a Remington 700 short action happens to be, both front and rear as well as overall? I am asking because I have a Mcmillan M86 rifle in .308 which is approximately 11 years new and I am curious if the Remington 1 piece steel bases by Badger, MWG, etc. will fit. It currently has two piece steel bases which I ordered with the rifle and are the Picattinny-Weaver type which were made by Mcmillan. The bolt spacing on this rifle is the same as an old Weaver 40A top mount, on both the front and the rear.

Also, do the folks like Badger, MWG, DD Ross,etc make custom bases if the Remington will not fit? Thanking you all in advance.
Alex <>
Melbourne, FL, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 21:41:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, time to start trimming down the junk and standardizing to 4 or 5 calibers. Would like to have semi-models of the same caliber of some of my bolt guns also.

Some simple questions if I may;

What would be your choice of pre and post ban semi 308's?

What would be you choice of pre and post ban AR's?

What would be your choice of pre and post ban AK's? ( I know, I know, just thinking of getting another one to plink with, don't get upset! )

Is there a reasonably priced, reliable 50 cal on the market?

Is there any use in the world for a bolt 223?

Anyone seen the new HK 45 carbine ugly gun? Saw one today and just wondering why someone would pay in excess of a grand for a 45 cal rifle.
Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 21:46:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


Mostly liked it, had a suggestion or three.

1)As tshoes pointed out, gun registration has NEVER worked. Ever.

2) I would point back at least to 1968's gun laws as the beginning of oppression. When US law quotes Hitler's book... yikes!

3) I would STRONGLY suggest replacing the word "privilege" with "responsibility".

Those where the big points of contention that I had.



Did it say "Heckler and Koch" on the side? People will buy it.

I'll be honest, I'd love to have a MP5-A3 as a toy, especially if it was chambered in .45 ACP. Such a critter never existed, tho', and this new 'thang' is as close as will ever be.

Oh, and as far as a bolt gun in .223, well... if you lived somewhere in the world where you couldn't have an AR variant, or any other semi-auto, but the .223 fits your task, why not? I'd expect, tho', that most would either go for the .223 AR, or go with a bolt gun in 22-250 instead.


Leslie <>
VA-TN, USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 22:29:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

.308 CS round? WTF!! Must be like some serious CS to have enough in a .308 size projectile to bother anybody. Hell I've had more CS than that in an MRE after MOUT training. What's it do make the target cry real bad if you miss?

Just being a smart ass.

Gooch <>
USA - Saturday, April 08, 2000 at 23:59:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

I spent 4 years trying to get to STA platon. My Commanders would not let me leave thier companies. I got out of the Corp and joined the
reserves H&S CO 1/24 STA PLT. It wasnt enough for me, so now im back on active duty. I finally get my chance to indoc into STA
2/1 on monday the 10th. I hope you didnt have as much hassle getting the chance as I did. SEMPER FI! CPL WILLIAMS USMC
CAMP PEN, CALIFORNIA, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 02:21:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Fellow readers, it appears that I have a "situation" on the Emporium page, attributable to my well-meaning post in which I invited parties who might be interested in buying stuff from a particular guy who was advertising to contact me for a recap of my "adventures" with said guy.

Now, he's pretty much dragged my name through the mud (in his "rebuttal" on the Emporium), in a semi-public forum, and I respectfully ask any of the lawyers amongh the D.R. disciples to contact me with suggestions, if you care to advise one of your chums. This dispute, Pablito, appears to be more serious than when I suggested that regular, modern, Hoppes #9 does little, if anything, to remove copper fouling...

Thanks for reading, and sorry for the off-topic post. (At least it wasn't ALL CAPITALS, ha ha)
Wills <>
radioactive, CA, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 02:32:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, guy's this is not in capitals!. are you satisfied?, sometimes people who really believe in something anunciate their words to make a particular point. I apoligized to two guy's who at least let a newcomer ,know, Caps presented a problem. via em.Now, once and for all,,,,, pls forgive me !, some of us aren't 20, 35 yrs old anymore and appreciate the larger PRINT!!!!. also, sorry this IS off topic, but some people just won't let small error's in judgement rest.unowho
tshoes <>
USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 03:45:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

I don't know why you brought me, and my gallon jug of Hoppe's #9 green patches into this... (which you still haven't given me an address, so I can send them to you)... but I think a lawyer over this silly thing is a little over kill on your part.
This is a silly school yard argument, "He said, He said" that shouldn't be on the roster, or on Sniper Country at all.

No one can win, you can just throw money into some lawyers Porche acount... if that's what you want to do, then don't ask for a recomentation on SC... we don't know poop about suing... goto your local BAR assoc, I'm sure they will be MORE THAN GLAD to take yor money.


Where do I send the gallon of Hoppe's soaked cleaning patches. ;)

Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 04:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

A question about the AR15- 10 rounds of Federal Gold Medal Match .223 Rem. (lot number 315759v272) fired in new AR with a 1 in 8 Douglas stainless steel bull barrel. Four had primers blown out of cases, all others showed signs of high pressure on brass. Barrel checks out with GO/NO GO/Field gages. Anyone else encountered this type of problem with AR's and GM223M? Suggestions? (besides selling the AR and getting a .308 bolt gun) Leslie- .45 acp MP5a3's do exist. (Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause.)
John Hunt <>
Sherman, Tx, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 04:32:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
John Hunt -

Not that I can afford one, but REALLY? A .45ACP MP5A3? Where can I get one?? Ooh... my wife'll be elbowing me all night thinking I'm going lu-lu while I'm dreaming of running through cases of ammo... ;-)

To everyone -

Okay, I looked at the $200 8x30 Steiners that the local shop had, and I have to say that their cheapie binos were a bettter investment. I REALLY didn't Like 'em at all. SO, I started looking at all of the other ones they had in there. Some really nice 8x40 (8x42?) Pentax, at about $500, but then I found a really decent pair of Nikon 8x42 that were really nice... well, at least they were a LOT better than the Steiners, and cost about the same. I think they were called the Attache, or something like that. But I'm still open to suggestions.

My objective is to find a pair of binos that:
a) are in the 6 to 8 power range;
b) have an objective in the 40 to 42 mm range (well, maybe 30 to 50 mm, but would be happiest with the ~40mm); and
c) are under ~$200, maybe up to $225 (okay, $250, but that's really pushing it!)

My ideal would be a 6x40mm, but there ain't no such critter that I've seen...

So far the Nikons are the best glass for the money that I've personally seen. The Steiners are out. IOR makes a great pair for the money, but are higher than the Nikons. Anyone else have a pet favorite pair of binos that they would suggest that I at least hunt down and look through?

Thanks all...


Leslie <>
TN-VA, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 05:14:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Leslie- $1700ish for a semi that takes converted Thompson mags. Is that too much? Check out Your wife will hate me.
John Hunt <>
Sherman , Tx, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 06:03:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
As far as the Binocs go, I really like the Bausch and Lomb Discoverer 10x42 model. They may also offer an 8x model, but I am not sure on that. The 10x42 is running about $360 at I compared them to a similiar spec'd model of Swarovski binoculars and found the Swarovski's to be ever so slightly sharper and offering a little more depth of field in front of, and behind, the targeted object, but the Swarovski's were about $500 more. I would recommend at least looking through them and see what you think.

David <>
Portland , OR, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 09:27:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Attention On Deck!

Gentleman, Ladies(who so remarkable discretion in their posts), and the rest of youse all.

If you have a personal problem - Solve it off line, Use Private e-mail, Duels at 10 meters with bad mitton rackets /shuttlecocks, Humorous side shoots At The Sniper Rendevous, BUT NOT ON THE DUTY ROSTER, OR THE EMPORIUM!!!!

Please read the parenthesized caption found on the top of the pages:

(Note: Posts that are completely irrelevant, contain foul language, include insults, or are provocative without reason will be removed. This Duty Roster is moderated by more than one individual and will be monitored regularly.)

Nuff Said...................

BIG CITY,e wiGAWD, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 12:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 13:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well said, thanks. Unfortunately my son was on my PC yesterday, and I can't get in via FTP to fix up the Emporium mess. I've mailed Ken for the password (thought I had it stored, but that one doesn't work?) so should be able to take the appropriate actions tonight my time.

Please keep Sniper Country the civil place we intend it to be.

Marius Ferreira <>
RSA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 13:23:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Marius: (insulting posts in the emporium).

Already taken care of - and Ip addresses noted.

If youn'z want, we can setup a mailing list called
something like:

So if you get pissed off at someone - you both join that
list - beat the stuffings out of one another -
then come back to the roster/emporium when
you're done.

Ken :0

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 13:43:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pablito, about sending those green painted, er, copper fouled patches, you could have had most of my address from a post somebody may have left on a place where some guys might post stuff that is for sale, maybe. But please don't send them, as my mailman would probably fear that I would "cuss him out" again. (context no longer available, thank you Marius)

And to Pete and others that think it was just a urinating contest of sorts, Ciao to all of that, okay?

I don't mind being in the mud, after all, the Mudville 'Militia' match, aka the Sacramento Valley Long Range Tactical Match, held the first Sunday of each month, is famous for mud during the winter.
Wills <>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 14:49:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello gentlemen,
I am new around these parts and must say I am impressed with quality
of many of the posts that I have seen here.I look forward to spending lots of time here listening to people who know what the hell they are talking abt I and don't spew a bunch of armchair,commando,fantasy,BullSh*t.

I have an AR-10 with a Shepherd scope and I am looking to improve it (Stewart Wilson Uppers come to mind I can achieve my goal with it 10 inch pie plate at 1000 yards.If any of you are AR-10 buffs I'd love to hear your load recipes and other stuff.
And to all of you bolt gun guys I'd love to here your views on scopes,barrel,twists and even Ghille suit construction(I'm working on
an antithermal Ghillie suit that uses Peltier Electro-Chemical cooling
tubes runing throughout with a thermostat the allows manual/ambient air/and surface contact temperature settings,I have a patent application out and hope to market it to the Military when I get more developement capital)

Good To Have Found You All

USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 17:55:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

i knew those damn candians were up to something!!!
bill reed <>
gardner, ma, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 20:59:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
Can you give me your opinion of the Bushnell 800 Rangefinder...
I just bought it and used it yesterday on a Varmint hunt,
to put it mildly, I was'nt pleased with its performane. I was using
it in normal light condtions and even with sun to my back and a large
rock as a target, the futhest it could range in the field at a natural
target was 400 yards. Did I buy a hunk of junk, or is there a problem
with this thing. Any input???
Thankyou, Todd
Todd A Smith <>
Ogden, UT, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 21:23:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
Heard through the grapevine the Canadians have bought 10,000 pairs of Birdmans HoMeBoy sights...

(Thanks's a hoot!)
David Kiser <>
NC, USA - Sunday, April 09, 2000 at 21:37:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Not a long range question:
AR15 with a telescopic 4 point stock.

Who has had any experience on the Colt 4 point telescopic stock? For those who has, just wondering what your thoughts are on it. If you like it, why. If not, why. What would your choice be in hindsite now? Do you find the 4 point stock comfortable as to the standard stock. Any opinion and feed back would be appreciated.

Thanks all in advance!!!

Semper Fidelis
Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 00:12:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bolt & Leslie,

A .45acp MP5 does really exist, in 92' we recieved all sorts of lit from HK while with 3rd Recon along with our new batch of MP5N's. They also were going to do a 10mm version, or just get a hold of the Colt SMG, made in 9, .40, and .45. Not neccisarilly available to lowly cevillian folks like us, but hey, Uncle sam loves to buy Military & Fed Law enforcement all the latest toys

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 03:49:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Local Sheriff's dept. got some of the 10mm MP5's. They are a real gas! Couldn't believe how smooth they shot.
Tony White <>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 03:53:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
OK, somebody square away this out of date individual, ME !! I have duct tape, 100 mph tape,550 cord and loads of surgical tape, Even have some engineer tape and 3 different types of electrical tape, That said... What in the @#$%*^! world is RIGGERS TAPE ?????? I even asked some active Rangers and they had no clue. BTW, this is from several articles in "Tactical Shooter". Someone want to let me know !!??

OUT HERE ! ! !
Will <>
USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 03:56:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have the colt original on my Ar, great to shorten up a brush gun, I have the full length upper & full stock for the target stuff, but have a 16" flat top M4 upper and 12" commando upper along with the telescoping stock for the trips to the field. The stock is pretty durable and is as comfortable as a hard plastic stock can get. They look cool, but if length is not an issue, stick with the full length stock.

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 04:06:00 (ZULU) (your host address:


I had the chance to zip a few rounds off with the fully suppressed MP10's ( mp5 in 10mm ) It is a sweeeet gun. makes me want to run out and apply for my class 3 FFL

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 04:09:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Easy there Will,
All riggers tape is, Govt issue 100 Mph tape, You hear riggers tape in Recon units in the Corps, some say tomatoe, some say tomahtoe.

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 04:13:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

The on going issue on the Colt telescopic stock:

Got a couple of inputs already - thanks guys! One important thing I forgot to mention, I am getting it for free. So my decision is not about either getting it or not but to put it on or not.

Semper Fi
Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 04:31:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Have heard a SEAL friend refer to duct tape as "Prisoner" tape. Guys in the movie biz sometimes call it "Gaffers" tape. ZZZZZzzzzzz (snoring, not the sound of tape being ripped)
Wills <>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 04:32:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
My objective is to find a pair of Binos that:
Try looking at

Brett <Tterb>
Hon, HI, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 05:35:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

you want me to send you some "Panzerband" ?

I had a chance to be in charge of a G-3 shoot with the Reserves last Saturday.
We shot with the new SIUS ASCOR Computer Monitor.
Great setup, there is a mircophone sensor behind the target that relays the POI to the main Computer and then to a shooters station with a monitor and printer. Shooter can see all of his shots, make corrections and at the end of the relay take the printout back to have the results written down in the Rangebook.
Makes the whole deal a lot smoother than having to radio the butts for sighters and score and improoves the shooting a great deal faster.

Had a real motivated troop there and went through all 1200 rounds of 7.62. Those of you that ever shot with the German Bundeswehr know about the paperpushing involved.

t <>
sitting in the office watching the, cherry tree blossom in, germany - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 06:15:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Off In Lala land for the past while, but I noticed some of you Americans have caught on to our invasion plan LOL:) [we have freaks too]

On the M4 stock - the four pos'n is nice if you need 1) changes for body armour, or heavier clothing 2) a handier 'car gun'. But sucks when you need to use it on someone to buttstroke. And the LCF is high too.
Kevin <>
Canada - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 06:23:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

John Hunt:
No, she won't hate you, because it'll finally be her good excuse to shoot me when I get one, and she'd even use it to shoot me! Nah, I don't think I'll be ordering one 'next week', but I'll have to admit that it makes a lot of sense to make less-expensive versions like those... the problem, though, is that the one I really wnat is the SWA-45C in full-auto... and I still can't get one, even if I did have the cash. The semi-auto, interestingly, is more expensive than the auto-version. But even worse than semi-auto is the long barrel... that just takes the fun out of it.

Dave: I'll keep an eye open for the B&L, see if I can find some to peruse.

Brett: That's an interesting site!

Kush: Lucky you! All I ever got to play with were Mk-19s... lots of fun, but not when you had to drag 'em overland through the brush, etc... Well, and I also got to play w/ M2s, M249s, M203s, M79s, M240s, M60E3s, and the ever-popular M16A2s. But never a H&K. Drat.

To everyone who emailed me about binos, again, I appreciate your input. I think all the advice really did help me clarify a few issues that help me make a more educated choice.


Leslie <>
VA-TN, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 06:33:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

John Hunt, I've had the same problem with the Federal ammo lines. Both the American Eagle, the Fed. Nosler Premium BT, and the Federal Gold Medal have spat a primer or two on me in the past. The first time it happened I thought maybe it was the 69 grain Sierra crushing into a short throat on my custom AR15 and was creating high pressures. When I shot some of the other bullet styles in my other ARs I had similar problems.

I've shot about 500 rounds of American Eagle 50 grain hollow point and had about 10 primers get jarred out of the primer pockets on them. I've fired about 60 rounds of the Federal Premium with the Nosler 55grn Balistic Tips and lost about 5 primers from those and had a couple come loose from some Gold Medal I had fired.

It was driving me nuts in my custom gun so I tryed shooting the stuff in my two Bushmasters and got the same results. Personally I think some of this federal ammunintion that is making it's way to the shelves is coming with some really loose primer pockets. I've had Federal 308 Gold Medal do the exact same thing in my AR10 so we aren't talking about a specific caliber here. I'm really starting to shy away from Federal brass for any of my gas guns after having that little escapade with spitting primers. Nothing takes the fun out of shooting quicker than picking a primer out from under your trigger or better yet out of your barrel extension after it's been crushed in there by the bolt.

I highly doubt that your gun is to blame in this situation. After my experience I'd say it's just a batch of ammo that was meant more for a bolt gun than a gas gun. I'd like to see what the same ammo does in an HK or a Mini 14 to see if the problem persists. I don't know if the AR15 series is slightly more prone to knocking out primers or if it's more certainly the ammo.

Bolt, on the 223 semi and 308 semi issue, I say Armalite is a darned nice company to go with for factory new AR15s and AR10s. Lifetime warranty if you can either luck out and find the model you want or stand the huge back order they seem to always have. After reading about the SR25 and some of the issues they have been having I figure the AR10 is just as reliable as the SR25 now. There are tons of companies out there doing quality work on them too. Ofcourse Les Baer and Wilsons Combat have hopped on that bandwagon now but I think for the money there are better shops offering custom work.
HK rifles eat brass like candy but I never got to have one because Ca. banned everything but the SR9 and HK33 which were super hard to find before this last ban.

Lastly I was reading through either SWAT or Guns for Law Enforcement magazine the other day when I found the old left thread/versus right twist debate again. It was regarding the HK pistol barrels that are threaded for using a sound suppressor. It seems the HK USP tactical uses a left twist thread to counteract any torque applied by the right hand twist of the barrel. And here the whole time I thought it was just because they didn't want folks confusing the MK23 suppressor with a USP suppressor, the MK23 is right thread and USP left thread for those who didn't know. Anyone think HK is just making up a complex answer to over shadow a simple one ;)
B. Douglas <>
Bakersfield, Ca, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 08:58:34 (ZULU) (your host address:


Rigger's Tape, a.k.a. Rigging Tape, a.k.a. Chafe Tape, is an extreemly water resistant, stretchable tape used on sailboats to cover items on the rigging like turnbuckles, cotter pins, stanchions, etc. that might damage the sails or lines. It is usually a nice snow camo white. See West Marine at

Good shooting,


Dee <>
Roseville, CA, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 12:42:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone:Who has the best prices on 308 match ammo?/ Fed, Blk hills???
does anyone have a good source & can recommend who, or where to buy?. thanks in adv, tshoes. PS; pls E M direct if you wish.
tshoes <>
USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 18:06:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Your email bounces back. Email me if you wish re: IR. thanx
paul mickey <>
Sprfld, IL, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 18:22:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tasco users reply please!
Are the Tasco SS10x42M worth the extra hundred or so dollars over the SS10X42 model.Is the fixed 10 power more desirable than a variable scope.
ad <>
Al, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 18:49:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
I own a Tasco SS10x42M and it is a very good buy! I took a Rem. 700 .308 equiped with one to SMTC and I took home the Top Gun award. The side Parallax adjustment knob is very handy. I think its worth it !
Andy Mussack <Long>
USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 20:21:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
I'm wondering if anyone can give me any advice on where to start with this sport. It sounds like quite a thrill but i don't know anywhere local to try it out. If any one can lend a suggestion(please bear in mind that I am in england and will stay here for at least the next six years) i'd be glad to hear from you.
I am eighteen years old and looking for a hobby.
Matt <>
Maidstone, Kent, UK - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 21:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
Matt in the UK:

Just what sport do you mean? The primary focus of this site is on tactical shooting in the law enforcement and military contexts, which is generaly not regarded as being a sport. However, there is naturaly a lot of technological overlap between tactical and target shooting. If target shooting is what you are interested in then I suggest you explore the NRA home page at:

which features information all sorts of smallbore, centerfire and air weapon competitions. You might also want to look at the Pracical Rifle competitions website:

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 22:13:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Back from the dead. Well almost. Horse pills worked and back on my feed. Back to making slings.

Wills, I for one and against the flow liked what you put on the Emporium. Made me think before jumping at an offer. I wont see you at Sac next month because I will be in Las Vegas with my girlfriend. It's her birthday and she wins this one.

Pablito, please dont send me a gallon of green Hoppes soaked patches that stuff looks like Jello but tastes terrible. Thanks for the indirect info about the Storm Sniper meet this year. Sorry but I have used up my vacation time this year and wont be able to make it. Next year I am planning on it, the SHOT Show and the SOF Convention.

To anyone that is thinking about it the Storm Mountain Shoot is fantastic. I made the trip from Calif. last year and wish I could every year. People are great and the place is better. If you are reading this Rod I have only one question. When the heck did you become a Doctor? If you tell me its in playing nice with the other children I am going to have a Stroke. LOL

Gooch email me with your address. I lost it and need to send you something.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 23:31:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Fellow Shooters,

I am trying to decide on a barrel diameter for my .338 Lapua Magnum, I do not need a super light 7lbs gun, I could probably tolerate a weight of about 12lbs - 13lbs. I am going to go with a barrel length between 27" and 28" (I will also have a muzzel brake so that will add a couple more inches of length) and im pretty sure on a straight cylinder barrel. What would any of you suggest for a barrel diameter do you think 1.00" is over kill. let me know your thoughts and experiance.

Siberian Tiger Hunter <>
Detroit, Michigan, USA - Monday, April 10, 2000 at 23:58:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello Fella's

I'm looking to get into long range shooting sniper style. For the money I can invest, I'm trying to choose between the Remington700vs and the Winchester M70. Can anyone help me decide on the two.

Thank You,
the Rookie
USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 00:20:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

For those interested in the Hanford shoot,

The Eighteenth Annual Law Enforcement Counter Sniper Seminar will be held at the Hanford Patrol Training Academy (Tri-Cities, Wa) on May 20th, 2000. The course of fire will consist of the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission's 60 round precision rifle course. You shoot out to 300yds in various positions and there will be awards for overall winner, top 10, best 3shot group, and cold bore. The overall winner gets a fluted, 30 cal polygonal rifled barrel installed by TAC-ORD (I have no idea who they are) from Meridian, ID.

The flier says LE identification will be checked at the Hanford gate, but I've been told civilians are allowed to participate (my apologies if not). The person to ask is:

Sgt. William Tanner
Richland Police Dept.

MG <>
USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 01:20:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ken Hunter;
What about Tactical-Announce is it not in use or am I just not receiving?I got a couple of messages from people signing in then no more.
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 02:01:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
John Hunt: We have seen on our team (and observed other civilian shooters) have problems with primers in relatively short-throated guns: i.e., 2.450" and shorter. Your rifle is the first Douglas that I have heard of this occurring in. Krieger's are notorious for blowing primers in a short chamber (we shoot a 2.500" O.A.L.) Who built your gun? What kind of chamber is in it? Have you tried the Black Hills 69 gr. ammo? I have witnessed Bert Medina shoot a 100-10x @ 300 yards Rapid Fire with this stuff!! BH makes a good 69, 73, and 77 gr. load for .223...with lowre pressures than Fed. Hoope this helps. Emil Praslick
AMUlongrange <>
Columbus, GA, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 02:11:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
John: Sorry about the lack of spell check! I forgot to mention that the reason for the krieger's being problematical is because of thier tight bore dimensions (tight bore=higher press.=blown primers.) I don't know the bore dimensions of a Douglas-you would have to air gauge it to find out. Emil
AMUlongrange <>
Columbus, GA, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 02:15:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
BGen: tactical announce list -

The list is alive - we've had one announcement go out from Milcun Marksmanship Complex - looked like a pretty neat course.

All are invited to join the list - where vendors, and members can post announcements, events, classes, etc - Mike Miller can promote his neat slings there as well.

If youn'z want - just email me directly - and Ill add your email address to the list - saves you alittle time subscribing. The list server will send you a welcome message...


Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 02:24:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Laser Rangers:
Question does anyone make a relatively compact laser that will range in M/Y to 1000M that is available for private purchase. Most of the stuff I've seen either won't sell to the public, lacks range or won't do metres any ideas? And yes that is 1000m in daylight I want (or more if I can) Swavorski has a neat Y/M but it won't do past 600
Kevin <>
Canada - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 03:48:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
Ok Guys,

Here is question for the AR15 guys I decided to piece togehter a AR15. I bought a complet lower and An upper reciver from Olyimpic. I have been shopping around for ther other parts i.e. Barrel, bolt carrier assembly etc. I was told to stay away from Colt parts becuse they did not mesh well with other AR companines' parts. Is this true?
Owen Foster <>
SomeWhereIN, Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 04:18:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

What was that site that had great deals on Fed GM2?
Sorry I was going to creep throught the archieves but don't have the time. Thanks
Kevin <>
Canada - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 04:23:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
Owen Foster:

There are some Colt parts in some serise of Colt ARs that are proprietary, such as fire control parts (differing pin dameters and corresponding holes in hammer, trigger and disconnect) and on many guns the uppers and lowers use a differing location for the front takedown pin holes. There are a few other instances as well, but most Colt parts made in the last few years are of "standard" configuration and can be freely interchanged. Usualy the ventors you purchase them from can tell you what is compatible with what. At the stage you are at there are relativly few cances left for a major incompatibility to pop up.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 05:07:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

A scope question:
Why are the target knobs on Leupold scopes so enormous? Can they be replaced with sensible ones?
It strikes me that the giant turrets (eg 3.5-10 LR M1) are going to act like long projecting levers just waiting to knock the scope out of alignment.
I've been lucky enough to borrow a Schmidt & Bender 12x42PM -its target knobs are far more sensibly sized for crawling about.
Bearing in mind how much better priced Leupold are; does anyone have any thoughts / suggestions?

I haven't been able to locate Franconia do they have a website? (am I spelling it right?!)

Many Thanks

(strikes me that there are currently 2 x UK Matts on the site; I'm the one that bores you all with my dissertations on drift -more anyone?:))
Matt <>
UK - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 17:25:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Matt, I agree with the size of the knobs being to large on the Leupold for crawling, however they were designed to be used with or without heavy gloves. If you have to use gloves they really shine. I also love the knobs on the SxB. The 4x16x50P2 I have are just what I would have picked if I designed a scope. I wish SxB had made the scope in MOA adjustments and not CM ones though. Seems like no matter what it is a trade off. Leupold here cost less than half as much and works very well.

Kevin, the cheapest 308 Federal Ammo I have found is Hopelite at about 325.00 per 500. Have you tried any BlackHills? I just shot a two cases and the stuff is very good. The 300 Win comes with Norma brass. Mikey Likes It!

Now if I can find a inexpensive source for 338 Lapua Ammo. HAH!

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 17:36:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

looking for leads on jute for ghille suits.
kyle <>
USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 20:12:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
Yes the knobs are large, but for a field, "crawling around" scope, the M3 scopes by leupold have smaller knobs, if you can live with 1 moa adjustments. For your military sniper who requires a body hit to accomplish the mission this is a good choice, your LE snipers who do more surgical, close up shooting will use the 1/4 moa and do not have the general banging around of their weapons that a field gun would. Or just get something other than a Leupold.

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 20:17:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a question that i am hopeing someone can help me with. I am looking to buy a russian Dragunov sniper rifle. I know that they are very hard to come by so I was thinking about buying the romanian version? How much of a difference is ther between the two? Also I am interested in buying a Yugoslavian M-76 and if anyone knows where i coulf possibly buy one please e-mial me. E-mail:
Lazar Simunovic <>
S.Elmhurst , New York, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 20:20:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
I don't want to start any long discussion of 6.5's here, but my son wants to build a 6.5. Anybody who is shooting either a 260 Rem or 6.5-284 please email me with realistic expectations of muzzle velocity with these two cartridges. 140 grain bullets/26" barrel.

Also, I have a recent brochure from Sierra that shows a 6.5 160 MK, but nobody around here knows anything about it. Anybody seen/shot these? Seems like it would take a really fast twist, but the BC ought to be outrageous.

Pat T

Pat Tidwell <>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 21:19:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gooch, 'Lito, the gang,

Speaking of target knobs, Any of you out there ever get a good lead on a good set of replacement knobs for the MK4 M3? Gooch, I remember a while back you mentioned that Andy Webber was going to possibly crank some out?


Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 22:05:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am interested in the Steyr Tactical SBS and was wondering if anyone out there can shed some light on my potential purchase. Strong points, weaknesses, etc. Is there a better alternative for around the same price point? I plan on installing a Leupold 3.5-10 Long range M3 for optics but don't know what bases would be optimal either. HELP!
Patrick Cross <>
C-Springs, Co, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 22:31:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just came across your inquiry re: 6.5 cartridges. I have a rifle chambered for .260 ( 6.5mm/08). The only time I chronographed was with a Berger 140 gr. vld and 38.0 gr Varget. Avg. velocity was 2646 fps. Standard dev. was 6fps. This is with a moly coated bullet. Start with a lesser charge and work up as this does not generate as much pressure as an uncoated bullet.

Also, another example is 44.0 gr of VV N160 with the 140 class bullet. I have not chronographed this. I would guestimate 2600 to 2650 depending on conditions.

A 6.5/284 will give more velocity. I beleive 2900 to as much as 3000 fps with 140 gr bullets from a 26" barrel is possible. Pat Murphy has rifles in both .260 and 6.5/284. He has done way more chrono-studies than moi.

Hope this helps some,

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 22:35:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Re: Tactical Rifles;Would like some input from first hand experience on the following,Quality overall of the Remington 40XC-KS vs. the Texas ARMORY M40A1. And have heard rumors as to problems regarding fitting/feeding/adjustments with currant M1A's. Thanks.

dou downie <>
USA - Tuesday, April 11, 2000 at 23:44:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

Can anyone tell me about the 10 x power UNERTL scope used on the Marines M40A1 sniper Rifle. I have read it comes from a company named UNERTL, but I cannot find UNERTL anywhere on the web.

What company makes this scope? Is it UNERTL? If so where do I find out where UNERTL is? I know these scopes are made special for the Military, but who makes them to send to Quantico and what is the address of this company?
Is UNERTL a name made under another company like Leupold or something?
PLEASE CAN SOMEONE CLARIFY this for me, I want to find the manufacturer of this scope that makes them for Quantico.
Mike <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 01:16:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

The Unertl scopes are made by small company (6 employees + plus Elsie Unertl) called "The John Unertl Optical Company", in Pensylvania.

They don't have a web site, and don't advertize... they are so far back ordered, that they aren't trying to get more business.
The scope that you refer to... is, by contract, NOT for sale to anyone but the Marine Corps... (though some have have slipped out to the FBI).

Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 01:27:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Knobs too large,
actually I would like to see the BDC dials on the Mark 4,M3 a little larger, like those on the 3.5-10x LR,M3. I know it will never happen. Most times I have to grip the dial super tight to feel the adjustments. I think it would "feel" better with a larger dial.
dan <>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 03:02:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Okay I can't find the post where one of yous guys mentions the name of this range but what is the name of the range near Fresno, Ca? I shot some NRA Highpower there in the early 90's. I think it went back to El Grande (1,000 yards) but am not sure.

Any of you left-coaster's know?
Gooch <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 04:10:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lazar Simunovic:

The Romanian "SVD" is not realy an SVD at all, but rather a modification of the RPK Squad Autommatic Weapon into a 7.62x54R sniper rifle. I have no direct data on how well it performs, but can say that many of the design features specificaly encorporated by Dragunov into the SVD to maximise accuracy are not to be found in the Romanian gun. It may shoot, but if so then somebody knows something about tuning AKs that I dont.

which is not saying much, mind you...

Tom Simpson <>
Columbia, SC, USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 04:34:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am looking for resources on optimum barrel length and/or diameter. Any help is appreciated. Thanks
Siberian Tiger Hunter <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 04:42:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Matt, come on too big knobs?
The turrets on the B&L's and Leups are a nice touch that when your hands are getting to have the pliability of wood you can still move them. The small stuff is to tough to play with then. -- or maybe its cause I'm so clumsy
Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 05:45:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Siberian Tiger Hunter,

Try That is Dan Lilja's site and has several technical articles on various shooting and barrel topics. One in particular is choosing a proper barrel for a tactical rifle. Good shooting...MG
MG <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 05:48:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


I am considering the purchase of a I.O.R. Tactical Scope, 6x42mmm, 1" steel tube, glassed etched reticle (USD$379) and would like to "hear" your expert comments on this choice of optics for targets at 700m maximum distance.

Thank you very much.

Luso <>
Lusitania - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 10:03:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know where I could possibly buy a Yugoslavian M-76 and how can I find out if I am allowed to buy a certain rifle from a country that i am visiting this summer? Is there a importer that I can talk to to help me get a rifle that I cant find in the US?
Lazar <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 12:18:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pat T,
I will try to be of some assiatance to you on the 6.5 issue. As Jeff A. said I have both the 6.5x284 and the 260. I will start with the 260, as far as bullets and velocity you can push the 140s to 2800fps. Dee T., one of the guys on here, is using 4350 and getting the 2800fps I tried his load and it cronographed the same in my VS. I use Varget and push mine to a flat 2700fps with the 142s. I have found that the 140AMAX will have more velocity with the same load than the 142s will and will show pressure signs faster so if you use the AMAX keep this in mind. The factory 260s and the custom one I have both will shoot MOA and under to 1000yds if I do my part. The recoil is plesant and they will shoot better than the 308s past 500yds for me but I feel this is because of the high bullet BC and its better wind bucking ability thus being less effected by wind drift or slight gusts.
The 6.5x284 is fairly new to me and I am in the process of finding out what it likes. Right now its very inconsistant, it will shoot the same loads from a .4 to a .8. It does not seem to be picky on powders, any I have tried have shot well (And bad). Velocity, it is easy to get 3100fps with the 140 AMAXs and 3000+fps with the 142s. The amazing thing about the 6.5x284 is when I shot it at 600 yards it was nearly a full 5 MOA flatter than the 260 was!!! It also appears to have about half the wind drift of the 308s so you can see why I am interested in getting this one to shoot. If you do build the 260 there are some of us on here who share info back and forth and it really helps save you time and ammo and some heartache(HA) Hope this helps you out.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 13:19:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
KEVIN/Laser Range Finders

Grab your wallet. Last week I had the opportunity to use a military laser range finder of Austrian Manufacture, belonging to a friend who lives in the Arizona Territory. Our targets were small rocks at unknown distances. Using this range finder, he and I shot sub-MOA groups all day, with first round hits on everything we fired at. The ranges varied from three hundred to five hundred-fifty meters.
Wind was pulsing most of the day, 15-20 MPH. The photo conditions were very bright, harsh, with limited contrast. Skies were clear, light was angular: overhead, indirect and direct, depending on the chosen target. I was behind a 6mm on a Rem PSS, #6 taper Douglas Premium Barrel; my friend was using a DPMS .223, accurized, heavy barrel. Optics were Leupold Tactical VARI-X III (MK-4?) 3.5-10 x 50/VARI-X II, respectively.
This friend trains police and military personnel worldwide. Much of this involves long range sniping and grants him access to certain paraphernalia which is not necessarily accessible to the average shooter. That said, I do not know whether or not this range finder is available to Joe Camel. What I do know is that it is VERY accurate (2000 Meters, +). It is also VERY expensive ($7000—yes I said THOUSAND!).
I believe the company which makes this range finder is called MHI, though I am not certain. It is about the size of a good pair of porro prism binoculars (approx. two pounds, with batteries). It has a broad viewer field which displays large red numbers. The laser signature is NOT tamed-That is; it WILL damage the human eye if you are on the receiving end. This may have something to do with its accuracy and range capability. I don't know much about this, though I understand that other commercial range finders have to be "safety" engineered to prevent them from damaging the eyes of unwitting victims. This finder has a single eyepiece, but can be used with either the left of right eye. It is encased in hard rubber, olive drab, and has two sealed buttons on the top. One of the buttons is for ranging, the other, I believe, is for memory. A false reading shows in the viewfinder as "999". We got very few of these, however. Incidentally, in an afteraction session, mention was made of an updated version which is purportedly smaller than a pack of cigarettes. Swarovski may be behind this. Their name came up several times, albeit with the accompaniment of much Guinness.
Write to me directly if you want more info. I'll see what I can find.

Keith Benoist <>
Durangatang, USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 16:15:37 (ZULU) (your host address:


One more post. In the politically incorrect days of yore, to be "rigger taped" was to be chosen among one's peers for a rather respectful, if not somewhat uncomfortable, rite of passage. As it happened, following the completion of RIP (Recon Indoctrination Program), seasoned Recon Marines were often found to employ "rigger taping" as the preferred means through which recent graduates were ushered into the platoons. The practice generally resulted in the loss of much body hair, as its application was administered only after said inductees were summarily stripped of all garments, save dog tags. Not unlike the practice of pinning Blood Wings, however, with the coming of the social architects, "Rigger Taping" long ago passed in the night. Alas, our once great nation has lost yet another time honored tradition in hopes of offending no one.
Kosher artillery, anyone?
Keith Benoist <>
Durangatang, USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 16:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

For those interested:

I got my 700PSS back. The gunsmith told me he inletted the stock which was interesting because he told me twice that he shaved the lug and bedded the stock. Maybe he got my rifle confused with someone else's. Anyway, the bottom line is he sandpapered the stock and did a nice job on the trigger - crisp, no creep or overtravel and just under 3lbs. His shop is a Remington authorized repair center so I was suprised he would even touch the trigger.
breakpoint <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 19:10:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Keith: Maybe I should have mentioned breaking the bank was also a goal. We had similar units in the CF (to the one you described) I am reasonable sure they don't sell to the public.
Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 22:54:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
There is a range at Coalinga (Coalinga Rifle Club). It's near Fresno, and does have a 1000 yd range, and highpower is shot there. The Navy Seals use it during the summer for training. (in response to a previous post).

"Okay I can't find the post where one of yous guys mentions the name of this range but what is the name of the range near Fresno, Ca? I shot some NRA Highpower there in the early 90's. I think it went back to El Grande (1,000 yards) but am not sure."
X54 <>
Coyote, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 23:22:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am interested in building a tactical rifle based on an M1/M21 style arrangement. I used one for a number of years in the service of Israel, and am nostalgic. I am realistic about the potential of the rifle. I am not lloking for 1/2 minute performance, rather the capacity to deliver sustained and reliable 1 moa to 1.5 moa fire at 600-800yds. Since i already own an AWP in 7.62, reliability and robustness are more important to me than ultimate accuracy.

A final note...i have seen the IDF rebuilds that springfield is selling, and am not excited about what's left of the barrels. Those things have been around since lebanon, and have seen a great deal of use.

Any guidance you can provide is appreciated, particularly information regarding best commercially available rifles. If any one has a rifle to sell i would be interested.

Many thanks


please contact me directly at

yonatan <>
USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 23:26:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

HYDEN, KENTUCKY, USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 23:41:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone know of a good gunsmith in the Maryland-Pennsylvania area? I would like to have the trigger on my PSS worked on and possibly have the whole 'derned thing bedded.
Rich S. <>
Baltimore, the land of "child safe" guns, MD, USA - Wednesday, April 12, 2000 at 23:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Can anyone tell me how to tell the difference between Federal match brass and regular Federal brass?
Would you be able to tell if you weighed it and if so should it be de primed first?
How close in weight should the match brass be to one another?
Josh <>
Belle Vernon, PA, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 01:05:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
Kieth Benoist

Were you a SGT type with 1st Force Recon? your name sounds familla'

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 02:00:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Here again is a non sniping/designated marksman question:

I have been wondering about the different conditions when carrying a pistol as a primary or secondary weapon for either the LE or military operators. I know of four conditions, but I am requesting verification on them.

Condition 1: locked, cocked with no safety
Condition 2: locked, cocked with safety on
Condition 3: no magazine in magazine weld, no round in the chamber and pistol slide not locked backed
Condition 4: no magazine in magazine weld, no round in the chamber and pistol slide locked backed

Any LE or others who can assist in my quest for knowledge please advise. Thanks in advance again!!!

Semper Fi
Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 02:03:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Darren, that depends on the situation that you are carrying in

For most LE, if armed with a Glock, on duty you have a round in the chamber ready to fire, any other DA type gun, round in chamber, hammer down, whether safety on or off, department rules and regs will dictate
For Military, that all depends on the mission. most MP's carry with round in chamber, safety on hammmer down. Those times in CQB type situations, we carried Colt Gov't models, round in chamber, hammer back, safety on, but that can depend on the back up weapon that is carried.

These are situations that I have observed or been in. As you talk to other LE and military folks you will find a plethora of different SOP's dealing with the carrying and handling of loaded weapons.

For my self, I carry the Colt MK4 Gov't model, a hot one in the chamber with hammer back & safety on for just such an emergency.

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 03:29:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Quality Ghillie Suits Available at The Ghillie Suit Depot
Keith <>
Sebring, FL, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 03:37:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone have a MAG-600 (or newer)weaponsight?What would you sell or trade it for?
sopmodm4 <>
USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 04:19:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Did Trigger50 ever get his book published?

Havent read the duty rooster in aobut 1/2 a year.
email replies appreciated (if possible)

Robb <>
USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 05:56:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hi to all. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with the Maadi-Griffin line of .50 caliber rifles (single shot and semiauto) are they accurate, are they durable? Same questions about the Professional Ordnance line of carbon fiber pistols and rifles.
Thanks in advance, any information would be greatly appreciated.
Gerry <>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 06:26:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
Carry "Conditions":

I was taught the following (keep in mind this is from a department that issued H&K P7M8s for over a decade)

Condition Zero: Cocked and Locked, no safety (I understand that VERY few units allow this type of carry, and maybe now nobody does)
Condition One: Cocked and Locked, safety engaged
COndition Two: Hammer down, loaded chamber (DA guns may or may not have a safety engaged, departmental regs guide this one, as does carry choice, this is the most common with DA revolvers and pistols alike)
Condition THree: Empty chamber (this is how shotguns and SWAT weapons are carried, I doubt you will ever find LE personnel who want to count of having a free hand to work a slide before a handgun can be brought into play)....

Just my .02


dan-0 <>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 06:49:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

A point of critique for us all, including me. Over the past year I have seen a great deal of knowledge lost to the DR. I mean the guys who really knew there stuff. Rod Ryan, Rick Boucher, James Jarrett and several others. I dont know what happened but I for one miss them and the wisdom they brought. Thank God we still have Gooch and a few others because topics have dwindled to say the least. Why dont we all do something to attract them back.

Here is where I am going with this. I learned of Storm Mountain Training Center on the DR. I did not go to any special place at SC to read of the places. I listened to what was being said. I talked with many guys and no one said anything bad about the SMTC courses. When the Hatchock Match was announced I had an excuse to go out there and see what the big thing was. So I took a week long class to tune up for the match. I had been teaching for awhile and I just dont take any classes, but all the word on the DR was great so I went. Well let me tell you it was a great week of instruction I will hold onto as money well spent. The DR did this.

In the past year I have seen many guys told not to advertise classes products etc on here. Well if we cant talk about new products and classes are we going to be limited to what makes patches the greenist? Or how do I clean my PSS? I dont know about you guys but I dont impress myself with answering either of two.

Dont listen to me look around and see who has left. What do we do to get them back? You tell me, but if you say screw them, you are just screwing yourself.

Now for questions asked:

Carry a 1911 with a round in the chamber, hammer back, safety on, in a holster.

Trigger did publish his book and it is very good. I do not agree with everything in the book but he did an excellent job and I dont know too many folks who would not learn from reading it. I am going to write a review for Tactical Shooter and see if they will publish the article.

Maadi 50's have a poor reputation. Spend some more and buy a Barrett, McBros, Robar or Windrunner.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 07:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Condition 3 !


Mossberg now manufactures, under licence, a Mossberg 590 DA 1 wich is double action only and should bring those shotgun SOP´s up to condition 2 were they should be.


well spoken, I miss them too.

torsten <>
germany - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 08:39:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike Miller: I agree with you on what you've said. It's not the first time this has been mentioned. We can only hope that the situation improves.

I don't think the underlying problem is with posting notices of new products, classes, or whatever. Merely discussing them in this forum has never been a problem on this forum. The Emporium and the new Tactical Announce List are great for separate advertising activities.

I've been on the Roster since around 1997. I've seen a lot of good people come and go. Anyone here remember when guys like Ron N. and Bill Wylde use to post here on a regular basis ? Do you ever see them around here anymore ? Perhaps each person has their own reason for not wishing to return.

In my opinion the Roster has suffered greatly from a lack of a regular moderator. I mean, how many times must we all hear the same questions asked over, and over, and over again. These questions are certainly valid, but there needs to be more emphasis on shifting these people to the achives and Hot Tips/Cold Shots section.

As much as some people would hate to admit it, at least when Russell Taylor and Scott Powers were around here they did a great job of keeping things on topic, and not letting this Roster from becoming just another message board.

When the two of them were here on a regular basis you didn't see all the personal attacks and that type of bull shit when someone brought up a controversial topic like trigger locks, or when new visitors like Paskz are referred to as "Commies" because their opinions and life experiences are vastly different from our own.

Scott has been gone for so long now I can't remember the last time he even posted here. How long ago was that? Possibly 3-4 months ago?

Anyway, I think the time has come where this board needs the attention of a moderator to help guide the Roster. Otherwise it will just fall apart from neglect.

That's my take on things...

Jeff Babineau <>
Truro, NS, Canada - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 10:22:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well said Mike M.

By the way, what is the title of Trigger 50's book? Always looking for good lit to add to the collection


Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 12:53:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mike & Jeff,
I too agree with you guys , we have lost a lot of knowledge and it has detracted from the sight. I find myself just skimming over it to see what intrests me now. I seldom reply much anymore and as you said many times we get tired of answering the same questions that have been asked a hundred times before. I can't blame the new people though for asking them since they have no idea about how many times they have been asked and answered. My main interest is tactical shooting and I would like to see us stay on course with the long range shooting and tactical shooting topics but I remember when Pablito made just such a statement about that very thing and was nearly run off the sight. I don't know what the answer is maybe we do need a monitor to keep it on track and keep out the politics and the other BS but then whats BS to me might be knowledge to the next person so I guess there is no easy answer. I find myself conversing more off line with some of the guys from the sight on the things that intrest me and in the process I have made some very good friends with people I have never even met. I guess the bottom line is,I too would like to see it go back more to the old SC roster.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 13:28:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'll try make it short and sweet ( well shorter than Scott would...)

The Duty Roster is what you put into it. PERIOD!

Everyone tires of the same old questions, but there is never a dumb question from either the newbie, or crusty old salt, or even an Un-Dude. ;-)

People have many other things to do in life, and this often takes precendence over chronically re-iterating posts.

We live in the "I want It NOW!" age with the internet, and websites.

Yep it is very nice and many simple queries can be addressed from differing angles or viewpoints. Whether you agree with them or not.


Gooch and measuring Mil-Dot spacings. Its there, but you have to look a little. and yes Guiness consumption is up in By-Gawd for a LEGITIMATE reason.

Questions on a product, and its been on the In Review page for six months or so...........

This is part of the reason for the new masthead on the Duty Roster and hyperlinks to the other pages at this website. To ease the burden on re-hashing the same old thang.


The Duty Roster is what you put into it. PERIOD!


UP TO MY @#% IN PLASTER DUST, bY-gAwD, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 14:12:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

LASER Rangefinders.

I posted a note yesterday (000412) regarding an Austrian Laser Rangefinder, then received quite a few requests for more information about it. The one I uset was the
Keith Benoist <>
Durangatang, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 14:44:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sibeian Tiger Hunter

I'm not too familiar with the caliber you are using but I will help enouch powder to reach your desired muzzle velocity. Once you have that, then you can choose from a variety of lengths. as best as I can. For the length, find the ballistics info for the round you are using and find out how much barrel is needed to burn
As far as taper, I have a 1" straight taper on my REM700, a heavybarrel, but in a field enviromnent or shooting off the bag, the rifle is stable and settles quickly after each shot

My reccomendation to you, go through the Hot tips and cold shots, a wealth of info there, or contact a barrel manufacturer or someone who re-barrels actions and they may have the technical info you may need.

Also go to the links section, check out Lilja, and Shilen's sites. Shilen has great info on lengths, twist rates and contours

Hope that info helps

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 14:47:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

My last post was a little garbled, damn computers!

Kush out
Kush <>
buffalo, NY, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 14:49:23 (ZULU) (your host address:


As I was saying, the rangefinder I used last week is known as the Teleranger model and was supplied by an Austrian firm known as HCI. The Teleranger model has since been replaced and my source informs me the replacement model is inferior to the original, in part due to the fact that the Teleranger is not eyesafe. Apparently, whatever is required to make a laser eyesafe results in diminished performance.
Another Austrian firm, Riegl, is manufacturing a laser rangefinder which looks virtually identical to the Teleranger, with the caveat that it is considered "Class I eyesafe". This model is the LaserTape FG-21, and claims accuracy out to 2000 meters. It may well be this is the one which replaced the HCI Teleranger. When I receive word on the unit cost and availability of the LaserTape I will make another post. I would expect it to be quite expensive.
For those interested, Riegl can be contacted at 


Keith Benoist <>
Durangatang, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 15:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

As far as where some of the old guys that used to post on here goes you guys need to remember that some (Rod and Rick for example) are up to their asses training/running a buisness. I on the other hand aren't teaching anymore and have the time to drop in while I'm on the computer writing an article for TS or surfing porn..I mean marksmanship related web sites! When I was working for SMTC I didn't get on here very much as I was burnt at the end of the day. Now I have time again. Lets not get wrapped around the axle here.

While I think that the Cold Bore/Hot Shots is a great idea, without the direct question and answering that goes on here we would just be "sitting around and staring at each other".

I too get frustrated by the continual answering of the same question but I guess its a bit like being an instructor. I've seen instructors get frustrated (myself included) by having to start at ground zero every time a new class picks up. You think, "Damn, I just spent 8 weeks drilling this shit and now I have to start over?! Where were these guys last class?" This site is like having a new class pick up every day.

And to our Canadian friend. The comment about there being no personal attacks when RT was on the crew. Give me a break! The worse incidents of mudslinging/flaming errupted from his Rock Island desk top! I was on the down range side of some of them. These were not light flames but direct, personal, "lets bring your family into it", assaults. I made a double post one time when I first started on here and he threatend to "cut my dick off" if I did it again.

Don't worry, be happy. Life is grand. All is well in cyber-land.

God gave us a sense of humor and patience. Use them.

Gooch <>
USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 15:23:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

RIEGL LaserTape

I just got a note from Riegl. The LaserTape rangefinder is the same rangefinder (updated version) as the Teleranger. HCI is no longer in business. The LaserTape costs $4850, and is avialable through Riegl, USA. Contact is "Jim Van Rens"

Jim Van Rens
Riegl USA
Midwest Sales Office
9235 W. Capitol
Milwaukee, WI 53222

Keith Benoist <>
Durangatang, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 15:54:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

MikeM: quichyerbitchin....set a good example - don't leave... :))
sorry dude - couldn't resist :)

All: with regard to sales pitches, announcements, classes, specials
or just plain items of interest to the tactical community -
let me encourage you'nz to join the tactical announcement list

that is the place where it's okay to advertise. We've had several
announcements go out. I have a list of about 200 or so
individuals that I will ask via email if they want to be added to
this list.

At the foot of each list message - I will put a small blurb
from one of the tactical vendors. I will rotate that footer
message on a periodic basis - weekly?... don't know that one yet.
If you're interested in having a blurb at the footer of each
outgoing message - for say a week or so - get in touch with me. Yes - this means you too - Jerry, MikeM, Rod, Kent, etc.

How do you get added to the list? Simple: send an email to:
and say add me - the list server will send you a welcome message.

After you're added to the list - to send your announcement - simply compose your annnouncement in an Email message - then send it to - your message is then transmitted to all the list members.

Ken Hunter <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 16:40:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

"When the two of them were here on a regular basis you didn't see all the personal attacks and that type of bull shit when someone brought up a controversial topic like trigger locks, or when new visitors like Paskz are referred to as "Commies" because their opinions and life experiences are vastly different from our own."

The Gooch Man: I'm not trying to glorify Taylor in any kind of way. I realise it got real ugly around here just before he was asked to leave. However, look through the achives. At one point in time he made a lot of effort to help this site and helped make it what it is today.

I'm certainly not going to condone anyone's misconduct or bad behaviour. I was only trying to make the point that a moderator of some sort is a good idea on this forum.

I can appreciate Rod's and Rick's work situation. The mere fact that they take the time out to post here at all is commendable. However, there are a lot of other individuals who've left here besides them.

I'm personally glad to see that you're on here a little more often now that you have some more time on your hands.

The more "new blood" around here the better. We were all "new" here on this forum at one point or another.

Jeff Babineau <>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 18:16:18 (ZULU) (your host address:


I see there is a lot of concern over the Duty Roster. In a sense it is a good thing, but of course also bad.

It is bad because it is unfortunately true. We have lost good people for various reasons. Some no longer felt welcome after being blasted off here, both by visitors and previous staff. (Refers Gooch's post.) Others felt they didn't fit in. Others got tired from seeing the same stuff over and over again. Others were just passing through in any case. Others had other reason, most of which we will never know why.

I have learnt a lot from this site. I might be webmaster, but I am because I am the only one that really knows how to do the "computer things" - and then only just too. I am not webmaster because I have a vast technical knowledge - far from it. I must be one of the least experienced people on this site. I was originally included probably just because my mouth was so big on Dave Reed's old site, and also because it was a novel idea to have somebody from out of the States to be part of the site - giving an international flavour to it.

Before I became sole webmaster for Sniper Country about a year and a half ago, we were actually four that maintained the site. The Duty Roster and Emporium were basically my sole responsibilities as I created and maintained the scripts. The rest of the site was the other guys' - all of them together. One left to pursue other directions, one of which was to get married. (Those of you who remember Jay - his mother died recently.) The other two left for other reasons, but we will not go into that.

At that stage I was busy with the Hot Tips/Cold Shots section. It was an ambitious project from the start, but at that stage I had ample time, and if the status quo stayed as it was I would have been up to date with the latest Duty Roster archives updated in there. Unfortunately things have not worked out that way, and the first thing that had to take backstage was that section. The result is that it has been a long time since it has been updated, and I've actually considered taking it off since I can't give it the attention it deserves.

The other option is to continue with it, but in a much less detailed fashion. If I do this there are still certain things I will pick always pick up, like places to shoot etc., but otherwise I will more only pick up specific very useful threads, like the one a couple of months ago about carrying gear out in the field. Unfortunately, even for that my time is severely limited.

Scott has also been putting the site a bit backstage, partly due to family matters, partly work, and partly also for getting tired of some of the stuff. Tired for getting slammed when suggesting different things, or when taking a stance about the contents of the Roster. But he is still around with the site, and a very integral part of it. Fortunately Pete came aboard during the course of last year, and he is a continuous contributor to the Duty Roster, as you all very well know.

I do not get to read the site as often as I like. Mostly I just quickly browse through, catching posts here and there, especially when I'm archiving. Work and other commitments are really tying up my time with no end in sight very soon, but hopefully it will get better somewhere again.

Getting back to the content. We cannot provide that. That we do in the articles, reviews and such we post. The content for the Duty Roster has to come from you, the visitor. And that cannot always be only high-quality, sniping and tactical shooting issues. Just think of it. If we were to take all the so-called noise out, what would be left to talk about? How much can one really say new about these things on a daily basis?

When you start learning, this or anything else, the curve is steep, as there is lots to learn. There is a lot of questions you have, and a lot of new experiences you want to share and talk about. But face it, when you have been down the path a hundred times, your learning curve has really flattened out. It is not flat, not at all. If you can honestly say, after having gone out for a course of something, that you learned *nothing* new - check your pulse, you may be dead. Everybody still has something to learn. Ask Gooch, ask MikeM. Highly experienced guys, but I'm sure they'll tell you they still learn. Might not be so much, might not be so dramatic any more, maybe it is only one small thing in a course - but learning they still are.

Now if we were to try and remove all this oft-repeated stuff that is on the steep curve - where is that going to bring us? Please, I ask those of you that take your experience elsewhere, even just off-list - think again.

Of course it is only natural, as you most probably go off with people that either know more than you, or those that are on the same level as you. But remember the new ones. Remember those that still have the questions, that still want the answers. Not all of us are teachers, and not all of us has the patience that Gooch, MikeM and others have, but please let us give it a try.

Try and remember why this site is here in the first place. We are here to try and disseminate information. Information on our controversial interest. Information that can help in un-demonising it in the eyes of the general public. Information that can show people out there that we are not a bunch of gun-toting lunatics, time-bombs just waiting to go off. And this we cannot do by blasting newbies and others off the site merely because we differ from them. Obvious exceptions are real lunatics.

But I do feel there are subjects that need not be on the site. The humour in the beauty of sheep has long ago worn off for me. All the political discussions, though understandable, are also subjects that I do not think belong here. But I am not going to lay in the knife to cut it out. You people have to cut it out - by not doing it in the first place.

Long ago somebody taught me something. "If you have to ask the question: 'Is it going to be wrong if I do this?' you already know the answer. Yes, it is wrong - don't do it." Thus, if you have to start your post with something like "I know this doesn't really belong here but… " then why are you putting it there in any case? Police yourselves, I am not going to do it.

And about schools and such being discussed here - I've never had a problem with that. I've never censored a post that mentioned a school, training and such. If people have specific events they are welcome to mail me to put it in the announcements - that is what it is there for. To speak in general about any school, methods used, training given etc. - by all means, do so. That way more people can get training.

But, as said in the past, direct "I am selling …" belongs in the Emporium.

So, longest post in a very, very long time. But I hope it means something, and hope it conveys some of my thoughts. Some of it has been overdue for some time, some is actually necessary to repeat from time to time, just to keep us all focussed - both staff and you people out there for who this Roster really is.

Enough for now - I have a paper to set.

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 19:09:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

"The only thing that is Constant IS Change". Don't know who said that but it fits here !! Guess you could say I am one of the "old timers" been lurking in the shadows and speaking out since Spring/Summer'96... remember many of the "flames" and some of the better discussions. Sure miss the "Nauga hunts". Having been an instructor in more than one capacity I understand Gooch's statement about burnout. Bear with the rookies and the same questions, maybe one day it will payoff. We were all rookies/newbies at one time.
Oh yeah... don't expect many comments from me. I got busy with other interests and also have learned not to impart so much of my "supposed" knowledge, especially when it nevers gets printed as an article as I was told it would be. Sour grapes...maybe... then again...I do have this thing about doing what I say I will and expecting others to do the same . Darn, does this make me a real relic or what ?? Have this great collection of Cartographic/terrain analyst material...any offers? OOps...that was sarcasm not a "For Sale" post on the Roster !!

Will <>
Deep, South, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 19:20:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just realised I forgot something, and as I was typing it my Netscape cancelled on my.

Mike, thanks for bringing this up. It shows you care about the site.

Gooch, thanks for your ongoing support, through good times and when the sh*t was flying.

And you others who have commented, and you who keep on visiting and posting despite what sometimes go on here - thanks a lot.

Without you all this site will not be what it is.

Marius <>
RSA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 19:42:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

The issue of which laser range finder is best keeps comming up. Now I'll admit right up front that I don't have in my possession a Doctorate in laser technology but I do have some experience with several(for what it's worth). First there are two types of laser range finder. High frequency and low frequency. The first type is that which the military and some government agencys use. The second (low frequency) is the type that is sold to the civilian market. It would seem that THE GRAND WIZZARD dosen't think that John Citizen is smart enough to be trusted with the military version so we get the crud, duh! You will remember a few monthes ago that there were several instences where "kids" were using laser pointers and thiught it to be just spiffy to shine them into the eyes of others, causing some eye damage? But that all aside you better be prepaired to add a whole lot of zeros to the first digit on your check even if you can find a "real" range finder.

Next comes the obvious question! If not trypod mounted how many of us can hold a range finder steady enough to get a reading back beyond about 450 to 500 yrds? Mine is a weaver and it will give me pretty good readings to 500 yrds. and under right conditions (braced) will give me a reading of 750 yrds. to the freeway down the road. As it stands in my openion they arent much but they beat the heck out of nothing. Pay your money and take your chances!


Vernon Hamner <>
Houston, TX, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 20:20:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'd like to know your opinion of the Grendel SRT-20 Rifle, I have a chance to buy one, in like-new condition, less then 50 rounds fired. This was a police rifle made on a Sako action with a fluted 18.5" barrel with adjustable muzzle brake. folding resin stock (folds at plam swell), 7.62x51 chamber, Any idea what this rifle is worth ?

Semper Fi
Bill Boyanton <>
Eugene, Oregon, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 20:41:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

What makes a real good laser worth it, is the beam divergance. The tech is there to narrow the beam, you just have to ante up to get it.
That is why the mil units are better, WE paid for them.
The units you get for a couple 100, are the ones with a broader beam, the cost is in the hardware to keep the beam narrowed. Look on your tech manuals, somewhere in it, it will tell the divergance. The lower the better. We have a Swarovski unit at work, will check the specs on it.
Outta here.
Sorry I haven't shipped your stuff Al O, haven't forgotten.Been super busy.
Tony <>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 21:37:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
On laser range finders...

I've never heard of high or low frequency range finders... both the Bushnell 400, and the AN/GVS-5 rangefinders I have, have a wavelength of 1.06 microns... the Bushnell is good for 250 yds on a sunny day, against a matte black target @45 degrees (the standard "Worst case target")... the AN/GVS-5 is good for 6.5 miles against the same target, same conditions, and is hazardous to the eyes at 3/4's of a mile (or so the Military says!)... the frequency, or wavelength, is determined by the crystal used to generate the pulse... same crystal... much more power!


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 13, 2000 at 21:42:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

The only crap on this site is the crap about what should and shouldn't be on here. We've wasted more bits on that than anything else. If you want tactical and nothing else there are books. Get in a corner and nobody will bother you. If you want to stay on one subject there are plenty of those forums where someone throws up a subject and all the answers go below him like the flea market we have here.
If you haven't noticed there's a little arrow right over there on the right. If you don't like it run it down a little and find something you like. It's a good idea to answer some questions off line if you can but if it's general interest. Post it here. That's the beauty of SC always has been, if it weren't for the mistakes and questions of wannabee's like me you wouldn't need it. Don't expect agreement with everything you say or an answer to every question you ask. That's the beauty of the beast.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 00:03:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
There was a thread / discussion of thermal / IR protection /Detection awhile back. This site below has some interesting products that NATO militaries are starting to use. Canada has also been issued some of these devices as well. If you look you can find some of these IR / Thermal Screens on the surplus market or with your contacts in the Canadian Military. The Canadian military has been issueing some small, 1.5m x 1.8m Temperate Woodland individual camouflage screen to thier troops, these are produced by Barracuda (see web site). I'm found a few of these screens through some contacts of mine up north, they are rather interesting items, well worth the trouble finding them. I'm sent one of two to some friends in the British Royal Marines / Army and they have done some testing with them, so far they are very impressed. They also sent me back a sample of some new screening issued to the Brits. This is called CALMS, it is sort of like a brown synthetic burlap type weave material, has the look and feel of a plastic like material. The Barracuda screens are different, less bulk / weight and are in a camouflage pattern rather then the one color CALMS stuff. The Canadian screens are a sort of 'Digital' pattern designed on computers. I've got some JPG files I can email if folks are interested in seeing what this stuff looks like, just in case your out scrounging about near NATO troops...

Semper Fi
Bill <>
Eugene, Oregon, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 00:24:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Siberian Tiger: You mentioned about a 338 Lapua and you wanted to build that caliber on a 27 or 27 barrel with a muzzle brake and that you can can lug around 12-13 pounds. Well, brother you had better get out another bowl of Wheaties and start munching down, because if yo have 1 inch diameter barrel on that baby, plus the action, plus a good stock (about 4 pounds) and strong Badger MOunts, and a premium scope, youve got at least a 15 to 16 pound rifle. Add it up. Ive got a 308 with a 5A taper barrel on a AICS stock and Leeee-o pold scope and that toy weighs 13 pound.

As far as this "old tiimer goes" I just dont have the time to meander around the internet that much except for the porn sites and the Duty Roster occasionally.

Just keep the comments civil becasue all the good which a certain unnamed individual brought to this this sie was swept away by his treatment of other individuals. DOnt let it happen here again. Its too good of a site.

Kent you mean to tell me he only threatened to cut your balls off - well, Im singing for the Vienna Boys Choir now. Always good to here from you and your special brand of humor. Kent arent hou instructing at SMTC any longer? If not, people are really missing something. That was the primary reason which brought me there because of YOU instructed the LOng Range Rifle courses.

Tony and Ginger: Have you go tthe pix yet??

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <>
Raisin'a Ruckus in Glorious , Ohio, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 00:59:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know where I could possibly buy a Yugoslavian M-76 and how can I find out if I am allowed to buy a certain rifle from a country that i am visiting this summer and bring it back to this country? Is there a importer that I can talk to to help me get a rifle that I cant find in the US?

Lazar <>
USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 02:49:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Al O. Just because I'm not working at SMTC doesn't mean that they don't have anything to offer. Rod had a great program going before I got in town and still does. THat's all I have to say about it. "Ende" as Torsten would say.

Gooch <>
USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 03:21:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gentlemen, I would like to thank you all for your time, experience, and sacrifice to our country, and to those who keep this forum up & running. I've just started (the forum & thread game), and have been totally pleased with all the info I have found on this site.
As for the "Hot Tips & Cold Shots", page, the info is dated, but, it's info I needed. And I'm sure many other newcomers to the DR have& do feel the same way.
From another site & forum, just this night, I gave a young man a(newbie) as you Vet's call us. The address & name of the above, you see, he had asked (The same old questions), lucky for him you were/are here. Lucky for us all.....Thanks to all who contribute, in whatever way.... smokepole308.
smokepole308 <>
USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 03:43:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
To address the laser issue. Most all the current laser rangefinders are NdYAG (Neodynium Yitrium Aluminum Garnet) and have a wavelength of 1064nm. Power output and beam diffusion/dispersion determine the NOHD (the nod) Nominal Occular Hazard Distance: the greatest distance at which the thing is gonna start messing up your eyes. This is NOT something you want to have happen. An AN/GVS-5 will blow big holes in your retina that will never heal. Several GI's are blind/vision damaged because they were stupid or someone else was stupid, that's why class IV lasers are generally not available at the local Radio Shack. Yes, you can get them, but they are normally regulated. Just be sure you give them proper respect(we treat them like firearms) and you should be OK. Semper Fi...Ken M
Ken M <>
IL, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 04:09:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
Looking for a picture.
Can anyone direct me to a web picture of the test platform used by the US Army to test the 416/338 (became 338Lapua Magnum)?

Darryl <>
- Friday, April 14, 2000 at 05:18:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Blaser R-93 Tactical with a Schmidt & Bender 3x12 police reticle scope. I took it out one day and I was shooting sub MOA at 200 yards - half the time I was putting one round on top of the other. My problem was the scope would not let me take it past 700 yards. S&B told me to 'shim' the scope. My Smith did it - I honestly think he used a sliver off a milk jug! Any ways it did the trick, I have full range on the scope 100 - 1000 yards. But my groupings are aweful! If I zeroed at 100 yards then adjusted the scope and tried 200, I would be 3-4 inches high and to the right. Do any of you have any experiences with the S&B scopes? thanks!

Scott <>
Albany, Oregon, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 05:43:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, Lito you just reminded me of something. The special mil-type laser range finder jogged my memory.

A commanding police Sgt. buddy of mine practices on the local range along with the SWAT guys when they go out. They had one of the IR illuminators along with them and they decided to play a joke on some shmuck that I guess they all like to pick on. While the guy is facing down range one of them has the IR illuminator trained on him from about 20 feet away for a good amount of time. After a bit of this the next day he notices he is a bit more sunburned than the rest of the guys that were on the range that day. I'm guessing that IR devices put out a bit of UV light along with the IR light. However powerful this thing is it's a good thing the guy didn't turn around I'm guessing.

Anyone else heard of any dirty practical jokes like this?
B. Douglas <>
Baketown , Ca., USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 05:55:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lasers and Eyes
When we first go ours laser ranger finders (in the CF) those of us using them had to be sent for 'laser eye tests' they took about two hours examining your peepers and determining what sort of shape they were in (before you got to play with the laser) On the assumption that if you had damage done (or tried to claim damage) that the forces could say whether or not it was done by the laser.
These non-eyes safe laser work extremely well out to long ranges. Most are restricted to Gov't sale, and are also terribly pricey.
They also need a tripod for accurate readings.
I assume there must be a 1200m(ish) eye safe laser out there for under a couple thou'? in a convient size.
No one make a spotting scope w/ a laser integral???
I wish Leup had a eched mil dot spotter w/ laser (hint)
Kevin <>
Canada - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 07:52:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hello all

Great to find a site hosting people who know what they are talking about. I am hoping for some advice regarding Tasco Custom Shop scopes. Does anyone have any experience of the CU 8-40 x 56 (mil dot). I am considering purchasing one for practical / precision rifle shooting (non tactical).


Dom <>
USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 08:58:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kent, I never meant to imply that Rod didnt have or still doesnt have a great program at Storm Mountain. Im sure the classes are still top shelf and without compromise. But you made the classes which I attended last year and your expertise brought out the best in lot of the shooters which attended with me. And thats fact, Mr Gooch!

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <>
Clarified in, Ohio, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 09:52:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kent, I never meant to imply that Rod didnt have or still doesnt have a great program at Storm Mountain. Im sure the classes are still top shelf and without compromise. But you made the classes which I attended last year and your expertise brought out the best in lot of the shooters which attended with me. And thats fact, Mr Gooch!

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <>
Clarified in, Ohio, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 09:52:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kent: I never meant to imply that Rod didn't have or still doesnt have a top shelf program at Storm Mountain. Im sure it is without compromise. But last year, you made the classes which I attended and brought out the best the majority of the shooter which attended with me. Thats just plaun fact, Mr. Gooch!

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <>
Clarified in, Ohio, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 09:56:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Al O...
A triple post... you know what means 

There is a laser for under 2K that will work out to 1200 yards - go here...

Though I haven't used one, they have been written up well. Like most civilian lasers, they are rated under best conditions (not "worst case")... so don't expect 2000 yards, unless the target is wearing an aluminum foil suit. But on furry targets, they are good to 1000-1200 on overcast days, and 800-1000 on sunny days. I think they are in the $1800 bracket.

Pablito <>
USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 10:12:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone here have experience or knowledge of the Nightforce 2.5-10*50 military/police model?
If so please post your findings or email me.

Darryl <>
USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 11:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am new to this kind of thing and don't know much about it but am willing to learn. If you could please send me stories or helpfull information it would be of great service.
Paul Bunny <>
Red Deer, Ab., Canada - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 20:06:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Friday, springtime, somewhere in the great Southwest.
The turkeys are gobbling, but allergies are killing me so the only place I feel comfortable is on the range. Bang Bang>Adrenalin Rush>Diminshed Histamine Production. I sweddaGod.

For members of the other party, I read in a recent issue of HOLISTIC HANDGUNS there was a movement afoot at Sandia Labs to develop hypo-allergenic ammunition for our more seasonally sensitive servicepersons. Operators are standing by for your calls. Hoo-boy!

Keith E. Benoist <>
Durangatang, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 20:41:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Marius, Scott, Pete, and others behind the scene,

Just a note of thanks for taking the time to make the Duty Roster work. I know it has to be very time consuming. I dont usually have much to say, but I check in on the Duty Roster everyday when I am home.
The overall content of the Roster has been very good, thanks not only to the Professional Snipers that post here, but from experienced shooters like Pablito, Al O., Bill R, and others.

Best Regards,
Bill B <>
ky, USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 21:38:52 (ZULU) (your host address:


I enjoy visiting and commenting on this board. I will continue to endorse training by Kent Gooch, Rod Ryan and Storm Mountain's rifle and sniper training courses, and any service, NRA, and DCM highpower rifle and long-range training and competition.

There are some things I will absolutely not discuss or comment on in any public forum (and neither should others) so there will always be fresh ground for newbies to discuss techniques and gear. Because this is a public, open-source forum you're always going to get the range of aspirants and vets of varying experience level (if you don't think so, try visiting the Shooter's Talk chat rooms).

Repetition is one of those things that come with having to raise and instruct new generations of shooters to follow. Like they say in the service, you can't get promoted unless you train your replacement. I'll help any shooter learn open-source, public domain training, and trade ideas on generic equipment and techniques. If I sound boring, I don't mean to, but there will always be some tactics, techniques, and procedures that just don't need to be freely advertised. The guy who wants to know will learn it through training, experience, or imagination to come up with his own play-book -- just don't expect someone who has to do it for real bandy around his TTP on the Net.

Good luck, and good shooting.

Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Friday, April 14, 2000 at 23:16:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone here know of a good load for the 30.06 using VV N550? I just got batch of it and wanted to experiment a little. Thanks for a fantastic website!!!!
Bill <>
Cupertino, CA, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 00:00:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
oops! Forgot to say that I'm interested in using a 150gr bullet for the 30.06 load (150-168gr) for an upcoming hunt. Thanks again!
Bill <>
Cupertino, CA, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 00:07:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
I realize the Ar15/M16 variants are not "sniper/tactical" weapons but I hope there use as support weapons will justify this post. I am preparing to order my first AR & have pretty much decided on the Bushmaster V-Match 24" Flattop model, use will be informal target & just plain ole' fun shoots/varmitting to 300~ yards. Plan to use my SS10X42 Tasco & a Trijicon Reflex II. I would appreciate any comments/feedback you might offer. Thanks.
Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 00:33:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
Do you all find that hot thin dry air is a less optimal medium for a projectile to maintain stable flight, especially for a bullet that is upset by increased pressures of temp sensitive powder? Could higher temperatures require 1/10 twist for better initial stabilization to boost downrange accuracy and optimize using FM308 175s? Is this accuracy decrease common for most of you above 90degF in your regions? Do you maintain several loads throughout the seasons or one? If irregular barrel harmonics are the main culprit do to irregular pressures of temp sensitive powder, then a 7 contour should theoretically help dampen and minimize the results of pressure fluctuations guilty of diminishing accuracy in thinner barrels. I’m always pondering the optimal assemblage of mechanical gun specs to maximize the utilization of one load, GM308M2, but keeps me at bay.

Good Shooting,

P.S. Hot weather; mirage + pressure fluctuations + higher heart rate = bigger groups
kenya sheutte <>
Mt. View, CA, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 04:27:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK Fella"s

Im about to hand lap a barrel and would like to hear some of the different ways this can be done. I have my way but it is sure alot of work and I have never fire lapped a barrel so Im not to sure about that method. I most certainly appreciate any advice or replies.

L Miller

Lonnie Miller <>
Pembroke Pines, Florida, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 04:51:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Great site, keep up the good work...And THANKS!
One question though. Ive got a fiberglass stock all sanded and prepared, with what and/or how do I go about painting it? It seems like all of the readily avalible durable paints are realativly flashy colours, as well as quite glossy. Any advise would be appreciated!
Thomas <>
USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 04:54:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
'lito: Thanks - although they never responded to my mail

Keith: Thanks - I mailed Riegl we'll see if they respond.

AR-15 Support Role
24" barrel - are you sure you need the long pipe? if 300yd's is all your looking for the 20" is quite sufficient. The Bushmaster DCM seem to be a good 'service' type example. but then I'm also the guy who likes the 14.5" for 600m shoots:)

Dave: nice to see your still here - you ever use Moly'd HSM?

Kevin <>
Canada - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 05:28:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

Help please !

anyone in the Houston TX area that could help my friends daughter buy a laser range finder for her dad ????

Please e mail me for her measurements, ähh no, for the details of the laser of course.

Dankeschön !

torsten <>
germany - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 10:34:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Speaking of lasers and eyes.
I underwent LASIK late last year for a two diopter correction for nearsightness. Ive known several people who had much more dificult corrections than mine which was the equivilent of the broad side of a barn to a lasik surgeon who had great results, and figured the technology had come into its own. I would classify the surgury as unsuccesful, large abrasions both eyes leaving me with my right eye, shooting eye, with irregular astigmatism, and undercorrected. Based on my experiences I can not recomend this surgury to anyone. The high percentage of loss of night vision and contrast should deter all tactical shooters even if the possibility of poor results like mine does not. If you are considering this surgury, and dont kid yourself it fits every definition of surgury and then some ,please pick a good doctor. Knowing two or three people who are satisfied with a doctor is not good enough. is a good site with pros and cons of eye surgury along with how to choose a doctor.
I am left with the decision whether to try to fix my irregular astigmatism and undercorrected shooting eye with more surgury. I am under corrected by omost the same amount I started with ,two diopters. If i proceed and correct this eye when I reach 45ish and the focus muscles of my eye inventiably stop funtioning due to age I will need reading glasses.
My question is addressed to those old enough to experience this farsightedness, how has farsightednes affected your ability to shoot using conventional optics with 3-4" of eye relief?



P.S. Anyone got any good loads for the 7 STW?

Ben W <>
USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 11:44:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Distance is measured in meters, mils is in meters, but elevation/windage adjustments are in inches.
What's up with that?

Why doesn't someone here in the States make a mil-dot scope that adjusts in terms of metric units? It would be nice to remove the conversion error from the sport. Wishful thinking on my part.

I bet Europeans just have fun thinking in terms of inches.

I heard a rumor that a Euro company might be making one this summer.
Any corroboration out there?

Sorry if this topic has been dealt with before.

Paul <>
USA0- Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 12:14:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am considering the purchase off the SR-25
off knights. is it a good buy ?

many thanks avi

avi <>
hayfa, israel, - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 12:35:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Paul, What are you talking about? Mils, meters, yards etc. Be more specific. Mils can work in either yards or meters. Most scopes are in moa which can work in either meters or yards.

Gooch <>
USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 15:28:41 (ZULU) (your host address:


"Distance is measured in meters, mils is in meters, but elevation/windage adjustments are in inches. What's up with that?"

Distance is measured in whatever units you are comfortable working with... Yards or Meters (or terra-Glubs).

Mils are NOT in meters... "Mil" is short for "Miliradian", an angular measurment, equal to 1/6280th of a circle (how's that for odd numbers), and it's the same in all countries.
The Rooskies use the full 6280 (their schools are better), we round it off to 6400, cuz it's easier to sub divide, and make dials on equipment

Good target and tactical scopes aren't in inches, they are in "Minutes Of Angle", also an international measurment. There are 360 degrees to a circle, and 60 minutes to a degree... these are the "same" minutes we use in "MOA".

A minute of angle is 1.047", and also 2.66 Cm... so both are not right on.

Whether you use meters or yards you will have to use a converter... 27, or 25.4, in your math... so it's no big deal.

Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 15:31:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

...was wanting to cook up some loads of varying charges before i go to the range next week- for comparison purposes. the starting load for (.308) 168 gr. BTHP is 46gr. of Varget. i'm shooting through a 24in, straight taper (s'at matter?) with a 1 in 10 in twist. what would be good increments to go, up or down the scale, in feeling out the charge, and would you load light or heavy? anybody?

kg <>
USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 16:16:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys a point of fact: I didn't make the announcement list with my description that said I am a SWAT Commander. I am not a SWAT Commander, no Sergeant ever is. I am a Sniper Instructor and Tactical Team Leader/Sergeant. NO more. Commanders are always brass. I am not brass. I will be tring to get that fixed. I just dont want any one to think I am something I am not.

Now onto what has created a stir. My comments were intended to ground this unit and find a way to attract some of the guys who left back here. As to how busy we all are. Hell I teach, make the damm slings, run kids around and work asd a PD Sergeant. I find time to get on here. If they wanted to they would also!

I do not remeber who put on here that all of use even instructors are always learning, but you could not have been more right. My instruction, for police used to be the standard FBI Style with the longest shots being taken at 200-300 yards. I have found that by having students shot at 600 yards the groups at 100-200 yards have been reduced and the confidence has gone way up for the 100-300 yard shots. Just take the mistique out of shooting at long ranges and everything is just a math problem.

Dont misunderstand anything here. I come to this site to pickj up on other techniques. I try and bring what I have learned by doing it and using it. Honestly I dont want to read second hand reorts of what someone else read. I look for experienced guys using equipment/techniques and sharing their results. That saves me time, effort and expands my base knowledge.

I used to see much more of that on the DR, I would like to see it go back to what it was. Not going for a fight here just writting what I would like. Do with it what you will.

Mike Miller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 17:05:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Re: Metric scopes measurements for elevation and windage. Even though there was a Metric Conversion Act in 1975, most people (in America) still stand by inches, feet and yards. True, in some cases it is easier to calculate by metric measure, that doesn't quite work for some scopes and here's why to the best I can work out.
1"(inch)= 2.54 centimeters(cm) OR 25.4 millimeters(mm). Therefore, 1/4" equals 6.35mm. It is much easier to convert/add/subtract 1/4 than it is 6.35. Yeah yeah, I know if you just use a 1 for 1 substitution, no problem but... who ever said it would be easy ?? Add to that the common unit of measurement of accuracy, "Minute of Angle"(MOA) which is "suppose" to be 1" @ 100 yds which when converted would be 25.4 mm @ 100 yards BUT in all fairness we should use Meters and in reality 100 meters ISN'T 100 yards , instead it is 109.361 yards (according to my "limited" calculations). Beginning to get the "picture"?
With that said, some Euro scope makers do use metric adjustments (Schmidt & Bender comes to mind) and it seems they use 1/3 MOA per click of adjustment . Help me here, Torsten !!
Have I totally confused everyone ??!! Good ! Imagine trying to convert a "foriegn" map scale to US Military standard, say, whatever the unit of measurement is in "Kurdistan" to 1:25,000. But that is another post after I have had plenty of Drambuie in my system !

Will <>
Somewhereinthe, South, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 17:09:23 (ZULU) (your host address:


...was wanting to cook up some loads of varying charges before i go to the range next week- for comparison purposes. the
starting load for (.308) 168 gr. BTHP is 46gr. of Varget. i'm shooting through a 24in, straight taper (s'at matter?) with a 1 in 10
in twist. what would be good increments to go, up or down the scale, in feeling out the charge, and would you load light or heavy?

I'm using the 175 grain MatchKing and per telecon with Hodgdon, 45.3 grains of Varget is max. Now, your 168 aren't much different so I would be tempted to start much lower than 46 grains. I would recommend starting with 42 grains and work up from there. You didn't specify your bullet seating depth but be advised if your touching the lands (see "Rifle Accuracy Facts" by Vaughn) your pressure will be greater for the same powder charge when compared to a bullet seated 0.010 or greater off the lands. BTW, regarding chamber pressure; barrel length, taper, and twist are statistically in the weeds.
Curious George <>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 17:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am 21 yr old college student with limited gun experience.(shotguns, and .22's mostly,etc..) I am looking to purchase my first long range rifle and scope. I have been researching guns, scopes, and prices. I am looking for some experienced informaiton to help me make a practical decision. Any suggestions or comments from all of you expereinced shooters would be Appreciated.

D <>
Tucson, az, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 17:34:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys: I've finally got something real good to add, and believe it or not, it's kind of sniper related. Binoculars actually (I'd make a much better spotter than sniper!). In the mad dash for gear up that I'm doing for Mike's class - by the way Mike, could be the wife doesn't like you anymore :-) I found a pair of Soviet binos that seem to be quite nice. The optics are clear enough for me to be reading highway billboards at distances measured in miles, even through part mirage that we have today (off the neighbors roof). The ones I tried are 7X30's, although 10X42's are also available. They're supposedly Soviet naval officer binos, but new in box. Multicoated optics throughout, moisture/shock/dust resistant, hermetically sealed. Clear lenses to the edges, rubber armored. There is a standard 5 mils to the tick mark graticule (rangefinder) in them, with 100 mils of horizontal range, 40 mils of vertical range. They give you 30 days to see if you like them, then a 2 year waranty. I'm not saying that they're Steiners, or your beloved IOR's, but they seem to be nice enough to do good spotting work with, and I paid $129 plus minimal shipping. Not light like Steiners, as they're made from Aluminum (or at least not something magnetic), supposedly 1.9 lbs, all up with straps and caps 1.1 kg. In any case, I'm not sending them back, and it looks like for this time the dice roll came out on my side. If anyone is interested, or has some kind of non-destructive test they want me to try on them, let me know. I'd love to see how they stack up against some of the "brand name" binos out there. Anyone interested, drop me an e-mail. Just in hopes that I can give a little back in return for what I've gotten.

By the way guys, I love this site. I drop in literally every day (virtually) at lunch to check up on what's new. There are several Rosterfarians now that I would be glad to share dinner and beer with, and even a couple of Patrons. For those old (er than me), thanks for the MAJOR help. Hopefully I can make you (and me) proud. To those newbies, it's here if you care to look. To the guys that keep this place up and running, well, you have my thanks for sure. A job well done, and enjoyed long.

And Mike, BTW, I've been formally notified that since I'm headed to the IDPA State championship directly from your class, popping the targets with a rifle from the parking lot will not help my score, regardless of the speed or accuracy ;-)

And Mr. Gooch: found the "secret ingredient" for your Guinness. Cheap, moderately easy, and Umm Umm good.
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 19:06:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ben W, On far sightedness brought on by age, at 44, I've noticed a distinct degradation in my ability to focus on the front sight of a handgun. I have not noticed any problem with optics. I refocused all of my scopes using Gooch's instructions posted a few months ago so I don't know if that "Cured" it. Hasn't affected front sight focus on Bushmaster M4 semi's with iron sights. Hope this reassures you.

Precision Shooting, the sister publication to Tactical Shooter, had a very informative article on laser surgery to correct myopia. It was a while back.
Bill0294 <>
Gulf Coast, FL, USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 20:27:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kev, I've used the Moly 77 Sierra Match King HSM's with very good results. I bought a box of 500 at the Camp Perry National Matches last year (because of some problems I had with my own handloads) and proceeded to win a Gold Medal in the 300 Yard Rapid Fire Coast Artillery Match, with a 195-6X. Did you free-float the barrel on your M4?

Ben, sorry to hear about the bad luck with the LASIK. I'm actually holding out until the Army allows us to get it (there are a small number of troops in USSOCOM getting PRK done, but yours is the first "Bad News" story I had heard from a shooter).

Avi, don't waste your money on an SR-25.

Dave Liwanag <>
USA - Saturday, April 15, 2000 at 23:02:58 (ZULU) (your host address:


Been a while since I left a message for everyone. Been buisy. Anyway, I went shooting today with some friends and we had a blast. Took my .300 Weatherby, 9.3x62mm Sako, and a Czech 7x57mm sporter. What a day! I am in love with that 9.3x62mm, and I would feel safe in any part of the woods with it in North America. I like the .300 Weatherby a lot too, especially with 91.0gr of H870 and a 220 RN. LOUD! The 7x57 is nice deer medicine. I will say this much, the 9.3x62mm really hits! A 270gr Speer does a nice job, I hope to plaster a bear with it when the cash flow improves.
Anyone out there into obscure European stuff ie 8x68S and the like? I hope to build a nice M98 in 8x57mm for the deer trips. I hope to patern it after the British patern 40A. I love sniper rifles and assault rifles, but there is a magical quality about a nice custom Mauser. I hope to build a Mannlicher repro off of a Portugese mauser in 6.5x54mmMS.
Any updates on the S&W situation? I understand there is a boycott in effect. I myself have purchsed my last S&W ever! Or at least until we get it back in American hands. Same with Colt, we need to aquire al our national treasures back from these overseas companies.
Happy Hunting!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
Supreme Soviet, Peoples Democratic Republik of Kalifornia, USA??? - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 00:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

i recently joined a shooting club and i want to get involved in their military rifle shoots. they have informal matches and do not shoot at distances greater than 200 yds. i am an avid shotgunner but this is my first foray into rifle shooting. i saw an old springfield 03 A3 with a "C" stock, as used on sniper rifles, for about $300 at my gunsmith's shop. it was not set up as a sniper rifle however but i probably don't need nor can i afford a sniper grade rifle at this point. (blew my budget this year on benelli and old double shotguns)
my only other limitation is that i think they only use U.S. military rifles for the matches. any recommendations?
Mark <>
USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 02:19:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Field report: Armalite AR-10 (T)

A friend of mine purchased one of these the other week, reputedly with a whopping 67 rounds on it. He gave it to me to tear down and inspect and from what I could tell it was indeed virtualy new. The rifle was shot from both a bipod and a sandbagged tripod, with very good results. The gun casualy digested over 100 rounds of reloads with no malfunctions whatsoever. When fitted with my Vari-X II 4-12 AO the rifle would print my pet Service Rifle handload (168 MKs on top of ACC 2520 in LC Match brass) into just under 1 MOA, which approaches the capabilities of this lot of ammo. Recoil was low and the trigger manageble, though not quite as impressive as I was expecting. A new Jewell trigger may be in this rifles future.

Overall, a most impressive piece of gear and outstanding performance for a new, unfamiliar rifle that hasnt been properly broken in yet. I WANT ONE! :)


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 03:56:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

For the latest on S&W thing.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 04:39:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
Tom Simpson,

My best bet is that AR10 T will get better with age as you find loads for it. Try the 165Grn Nosler Balistic tip, my AR10 A4 20 inch loves them putting 5 shots inside an inch at 100 yards. The other bullet it likes is the 180grn Sierra Matchking, they are just as tight but they are 3 inches down and 3 inches left of the zero for the Noslers. I'm currently using H322 and H335 for working target loads and for keeping the barrel cool

I haven't had luck with the 168grn Sierras actually.

What's more strange is I've heard a couple guys getting great results with the 125grn Speer TNT at 100 yards. Don't know powders that were used but it may be worth a try. I'm going to try them soon with just simple starting loads to see if they show promise.

Have your buddy check the bolt, there was an Armalite recall on bolts from a Lot "C". They will replace it for free for you and refund you for shipping costs.

I'm hoping to go to a 243 24 inch T upper around middle of summer. I'm looking for a coyote gun that will shoot 55grn Nosler/58grn Vmax pills.
B. Douglas <>
Baketown, Ca., USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 05:35:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill - Re: Grendel SRT 20. What's the rifle worth? Probably not much. I think I paid $300+ for mine. It does not have an adjustable muzzlebrake. It has a colar that draws into contact with the Douglas barrel - that is the way it is mounted. I believe that there was also a flash suppressor available that mounted in the same way.

When I said it wasn't worth much, I was refering to price. It seems to be reasonalby accurate for what it is. I have gotted 1" groups with it, but to do better I'd probably have to put a decent stock on it. It is meant for "packing around" and in that role it is pretty sweet. It also has a 9-rd magazine and mount point for an M-16 bipod.

Geo S.

Geo S. <>
VA, USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 07:51:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

My previous post was an attempt to get the discussion back onto techniques. I'm familiar with the topic and was just trying to stirup some discussion away from the grumbling.
As MikeM. mentioned, I come here to learn the techniques of others.

Thanks Pablito for the details. I was referring to the facts that 1MOA is 1in. at 100yds. and 1 mil is 1 meter at 1000 meters.
I know these are just guidelines and aren't exact. But its what I use.

Been working on SMK 190gr 308 loads. I do say they show significant improvement over 168/175's for ranges over 400m.
Groups show much smaller lateral variation on windy days(8-15+mph range winds).

Paul <>
USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 09:41:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mark, Re: Springfield.
Mark, go to your nearest news stand and pick up a copy of the latest Shooting Times. There is a article in there meant to be a tribute to a great pistol shooter named Jim Clark. Mr Clark accomplished many things in his life, but in World War 2 he was a sniper. At the battle of Saipan, Clark found himself alone on top of a cliff, about 1000 yards away, overlooking a road leading out of a village where the enemy was retreating as fast as it could. He was using an 03 Springfield with a 10x Lyman Supertargetspot scope. He fired 300 rounds off from that position and scored 100 percent hits after he got the scope zeroed in.
Is a Springfield a for real sniper rifle? There are a whole lot of Japaneese people today, that might argue that it is, but they can't because they were never born.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 10:42:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

I must have not have made it clear...

A mil is "not metric"!

Yes, It's a meter at 1000 meters, but...
It is a yard at 1000 yards.
It is an inch at 1000 inches.
It is a millimeter at 1000 millimeters.
It is a furlong at 1000 furlongs.
It is one anything at 1000 anythings...
The word "Mil" coming from the prefix meaning 1/1000th.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 11:25:23 (ZULU) (your host address:


Just an idea regarding the S&W boycott. I think most of us agree that S&W needs to receive a loud and memorable message from the U.S. gun culture, but I have a suggestion on the far-reaching effects of such an action.

We may want to be careful not to boycott our local dealers. It seems to me that if we have done business with one or two especially good dealers, then we need to stand at their side through this. Specifically, let's avoid leaving them with an inventory of unsellable S&W merchandise which might hurt them personally.

If we have a good enough relationship with such a dealer, it should be reasonable to establish his intentions as they pertain to S&W products. We can all agree that S&W makes some good quality guns and gear. If the dealer owns it already, then to boycott it would only hurt him.

I intend to question (and have already done so...) my guy's plans, and then act accordingly. But make no mistake: Smith & Wesson is out of business with me!!!

Semper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <>
PA, USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 13:20:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

Roger, About the S&W situation and dealerships/shops/etc... Four shops in my area and my own club have already cancelled their back orders and their dealership agreements with "klinton&Wesson". Might I suggest to lessen the financial impact to your favorite firearms dealer that you place on order a sidearm of another manufacturer ?! In my case I have a Glock or 2 on lay-a-way...this shows your support to the dealer and the opposition of the "traitors" in the industry.
Just a thought.

Targets Sighted !!
Will <>
USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 13:54:12 (ZULU) (your host address:


Two of my local dealers have posted signs over their "Old" S&W stock, that say that the guns are old "Pre-Agreement" stock that they have already paid for, and can't send back, and that they have canceled all orders with S&W, and will not take special orders for S&W.

I understand this idea is going around the country, and I support it... buy old stock S&W's, if you want... sticking a small gunshop with paid for inventory, won't "Get" Smith... it will hurt the shop.

But I (and many others) urge you to not to buy ANY guns, or other products from gun shops that continue to order from S&W.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 14:36:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Color blindness ??????

any thoughts if that is an absolute out for a sniper ?

I heard that color blind people can see better contrast than those of us that just rely on the color itself.

Is it true that the A-10 Pilots are color blind to take advantage of this ???? Sounds like a joke to me.

Anyone out there that is color blind, or has trained color blind snipers ?



torsten <>
germany - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 16:31:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone here have a AICS stock on their Rem.700 SA?
If so how do you like it?
How do you like it in other shooting positions other than prone?
Also anyone like the steiners 8x30 with mil reticle?

Hondo <>
USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 17:48:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Rem.700VS, and recently ordered a Shilen, standard trigger. How easy is it to install, what are the procedures, including the attachment of the factory safety, and should I do it myself or hire a gun-smith?

Thank You, Mark Wall
Mark Wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 21:04:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Just a little bit of info for any of you out there that may read
"Petersen's Hunting", "Guns & Ammo", "Handguns", "Rifle Shooter"
magazines and have noticed a remarkable drop in quality.Please be
aware that these rags are now owned by a British Company, with the
decisions being made in London, and the profits going there as well.
Remember that this is gun-hating England, home of Marx&Wesson, a
country that banned private ownership of firearms and elected
Klinton's best buddy Prime Minister Tony Blair. Save your money
and buy American the next time you have the urge to read a gun mag!

Al S.
Al Simon <>
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, April 16, 2000 at 22:59:25 (ZULU) (your host address:


I haven't read any of those magazines in years, but I was under the impression that Peterson's was Published here, and I recall seeing an artical about the Peterson "Gun Ranch"... with a 300 yard underground test range, a test lab, and a lot of stuff that many bullet companys would give their left *** to have.

What happened, and how the hell can you run a gun magazine in England... that's like publishing Playboy from the Vatican!!

Pablito <>
USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 00:28:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

The electronic age is here!

So I was thumbing through my new issue of Field & Stream, it has the new Remington EtronX, the first of the rifles that use an electronic firing device. Very small trigger travel, a lock time of 27 micro seconds, a nifty LED to tell if there is a round in the chamber and a key to "turn on or off" your gun.

Welcome to the age of " product liability " guns.

But on a good note, it does have merit to eliminate some of the problems of internal ballistics.

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 00:35:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Good question Torsten.

I'm an Optometrist on active duty, so I do colorvision tests and have learned some interesting things about people with color deficiencies. I know that some camoflague REALLY sticks out to people with red-green color deficiencies. It has to do with the dies used and their absorption of sunlight- Artificail dies are combinations of different colors, the natural stuff (leaves, grass) is usually more homogenous. The Air Corps used some of these folks in WWII to look at color recon photos. They could pick out painted structures among trees easier than 'normal' folks.

Since I'm not a zoomie, I have no information on the A-10 guys, except that when I was a grunt I REALLY liked to see them around. I do know the Navy (and the Corps) has NO color deficient pilots. (at least we don't let them in)

Just being color deficient (like red-green or blue yellow) actually has little effect on contrast sensativity. Sensativity really drops for those unlucky enough to be truly color-blind (sees no color at all), due to a lack of cone receptors in the retina.

All in all, just being red-green deficient (the most common version) shouldn't make a really big difference, unless you're trying to look for guys in red berets! Just know your own limitations.


Doc <>
Sunny Yokosuka, JAPAN - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 01:26:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Topic: eyesight/color blindness...

I would tend to think that the shades of color that you see is not as critical - as is how your mind 'processes' that visual input.
Example: my wife and myself will go out and spot game, etc across the field, in the woods. She can see the slightest blend of color - really good @ spotting game that blends pretty well with it's surrounding colors. I see color as well as the next normal eyesighted person - however - I tend to be better @ spotting change or the slightest of movements. Anyhow - I think alot of that is just plain conditioning... I have not been operational as a sniper - but it seems to make sense to me that certain types of visual observation skills can be developed.


Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 01:29:47 (ZULU) (your host address:


Reagarding S&W situation.... I read in the Sacramento Commie (Bee) that the former U.S. government (Klintonistas) are going ahead with an anti trust suit against the gun industry as a whole. The basis for this action is the boycott against S&W. They want to send a clear message that "Reataliation will not be tolorated." It appears to this gun owning, combat veterain, flag waving, 110% American, that they are going for it all, and soon.
The sistuation is in my opinion being expidited because the Commies (Democrats) have little chance to do ANYTHING after November 9, 2000 if Mr. Bush (I use his name with great respect!) beomes our esteemed Presedent. My battle cry is "Fu-- S&W!"
In honor of all those who love freedom and allthe rights there of I suggest that a match be organized in the name of freedom. The "Freedom Cup".

God bless and Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 02:12:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gentlemen; In reguards to the SCHMIDT & WESSON fiasco,Have a flashback with me, Do you all remember who originally started the capitulaton to the anti-crowd?, Well, it was our old buddy.... Mr, Bill Ruger. He voluntarily stopped selling 20 & 30 rd mags, for the MINI's.and/or at the same time/ the folders.

Then we have COLT MFG.If memory serves me correctly, they decided to do away (voluntarily) w/ bayo/lugs, installed the dumb steel lower blocks. And if that wasn't enough, started making trigger/fire control assy's, oversize (PINS). So std mil-spec parts wouldn't interchange..... S & W, is just one more in a long & growing line of sell-out's. I for one since these changes have come about have not/ will not purchase ANY products made by any of them..

all this said I agree that we should not make the local dealers suffer w/ dead inventory, so let's make ourselves known, that we will no longer purchase S&W products, or the other aforementioned brands, like most on this roster would anyway!! Like the old adage, "If we don't hang together, we shall surely hang separately!". tshoes
tshoes <>
USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 02:29:04 (ZULU) (your host address:


Many of the changes that were made by Colt, were because of a Konnecticut State law, passed by then, Gov. Wyker.

They are still a target of the state's attorney, and the mayor of Bridgeport... oddly, once the largest gun making city in the country, located in the largest gun making state in the country... so much for history :((

Pablito <>
USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 02:37:42 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have used the 7x50 and the 6x30 ST (NSN 6650-66-026-6420) Steiner Military model's, both have reticle's,Mil model's are easy to ID as they have 2 small red plastic cap's that hide the N2 gas fill points,to the rear of the bino's.The commerical Steiner's do not have the nitrogen fill caps,I have found them to be excellent bino's,I usually prefer the smaller 6x30's as they are lighter and fit in pouche's better,but you can unscrew a set of 7x50's and take one of the tube's,a trick grunt's have been going for some time.At the moment Steiner's Mil model's are my choice in Army bino's,as they have good glass,light weight and are rugged,they may not be quite as clear as Leica's?(I have not seen or used them,Leica's that is) but I would like to see Leica's handle the abuse the Steiner's routinly get at the hand's of Kiwi troop's,and keep on ticking.

Chris <>
New Zealand - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 07:13:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ladies and GentleSheepMen,
How long has the link on the warning page for the nonagreement sent folks off to the "barneyonline" page? Barney is rather out of date I feel and perhaps it's time to get with the current popular kiddie shows. Is there a teletubbi home page that we could send those who feel they are not mature enough for the content of this site?

Anyhow, don't take this worth a grain of salt because it's meant as a joke for those who didn't know where the people who don't agree to the warning get shipped off to. Personally I think it's great but it seems it's been that way for quite a long time. If it ain't broke don't fix it?
B. Douglas <>
Baketown, Ca., USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 08:28:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

After posting that I find myself asking why I even felt the need to address "the ladies." Ladies? Where? I haven't seen any!
B. Douglas <>
Wish me luck guys, I found a woman who keeps a 357Magnum! She's a keeper., Looking for the pea in the fish taco in California, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 08:31:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Just a quick comment on the state of shooting in the UK at present (ref. gun mags.).

I can assure you that many British people do not have a gun-hating attitude. What we do have is a series of reactionary governments that feel the need to apply additional restrictions on lawful gun owners and shooters in response to events such as Hungerford and Dunblane. Both of these tragedies could have been prevented if the local police forces had correctly applied the legislation in place at the time. We also have a very ill-informed public - after Dunblane 15% of the population felt the Army should not carry guns!

Fortunately, our shooters are trying to adapt, and have finally started to pull together by supporting the organisations presenting our case. Our practical shooters have swapped from the SLR to bolt actions - the stages are now a little slower, but not by as much as you might think. Centerfire pistol shooters are either using rapid fire air pistols or black powder weapons, which are not banned (though the use of black powder is very heavily regulated). There are also companies manufacturing Rugers, Casulls etc. with very long barrels so that they are classed as rifles on your FAC. It is the gun trade that has felt the biggest shocks, losing first self-loaders and then pistols, along with all the business they provided.

Personally, I will continue to support whatever forms of shooting we have left.

Shoot tight groups, and do everything you can to protect your rights (even if it does involve tea bags !)

Dom <>
Cardiff, Wales - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 08:56:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Although a frequent reader of this site. I rarely post as I am a relative newbie and I don't want to clutter things up with questions I can answer by simply searching the archive.

I'm posting now to bring everyone up to speed with my latest two projects. My first has been to commission a rifle custom built for Storm Mountain. The rifle was built by George Gardner. The basic spec includes a 26
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 13:10:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry for the dupe post...not sure how, but the system seems to have shortened my first post automatically?

Although a frequent reader of this site. I rarely post as I am a relative newbie and I don't want to clutter things up with questions I can answer by simply searching the archive.

I'm posting now to bring everyone up to speed with my latest two projects. My first has been to commission a rifle custom built for Storm Mountain. The rifle was built by George Gardner. The basic spec includes a 26" Cooper 5R barrel, Mcmillan Woodland camo A2 stock, Badger trigger guard, recoil lug, tapered scope base and rings, Leupold Mark 4 M3 glass and a barrel coated by Buckeye in light OD. I figure this oughta cure the bruised shoulder I walked away from the LRR1 course with, as this is no lightweight iron.

George has accomplished a very tight fit and finish and I am sure hoping it shoots as good as it looks (I will report back soon). My experience to date with this smith suggests he says what he means and delivers exactly what and when he says he will.

The second project is to build an AR that can reach out to 600 yards pushing 69 or 75 grain clip fed rounds into tight groups. I am only looking at 20" barrels mounted to appear as though they are stock rifles. I have a Bushmaster chromed 1:9 on the rifle right now, and plan to test it against a SS custom in 1:8 that a friend has in the works. My theory is that the chromed barrel will hold up pretty well against his bench gun at the ranges we are talking, especially because both must strip rounds from the clip. I will have a Compass Lake float tube installed on the BM shortly, and willl be using equivalent optics for the compare. If someone has done a similar work previously and has any pointers on how to best setup my test, please drop me an email.

Note - I am not made of money, I emptied a water cooler bottle full of change that I've been saving for the last 10 years to pay for the "Storm" rifle...and it still took me 8 months to put it all together.

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 13:12:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys, picked up my new George Gardner M1A. I was ammassed at how great it looked. The bedding was so neat you could hardly tell it was there. Well I shot it and it shot even better than it looked. This is the best shooting M1A I have ever shot. That includes the one I won a Gold Medal in the Police Olympics with. If you are thinking about getting an M1A get one from George!

I found out from BlackHills Ammo that they make a 190 loading for the 300 Win with an overall length of 3.5". Thats the Navy length and what good old great smith Jerry Rice set my 300's chamber at. I have some of the 3.5 OAL stuff on the way. I will let you know how it works. I have shot the regular 3.4 stuff and it works well, under 1/2moa, but the rifle shoots better with 3.5 OAL hand loads.

I have been giving alot to thought to product improvement and I think what the sniper world needs is a small notebook size data book. Gooch if you shrunk the TRGT Book down to the size of your notebook for a miny data book, I think you would slay. Anyone else have any ideas?

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 15:06:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Where can I find info on lapping scpoe rings? Could someone explain the process to me.
Grogan <>
Republic, WA, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 15:15:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
S&W question, If you checked the link I left you ... it indicates that all is not right between S&W and the Klingons. Apparently S&W would like to back peddle. I believe they were also mislead to think that all American Firearms companies were going to join the team and thought to be first up for the firearms sales to Law Enforcement and Govt agencies. It worked of course in some cases already but the price they will pay may not be worth it. S&W knows this now and is squirming under the pressure. Does not excuse their ignorance of course. Pablito I wonder if you checked that and what you got from it?

For those with relatively simply questions that might be in the archives, It's really a hassle we know to look back for all that and
it is often just as effective to post a short question and ask for off line answers IF it is specialized, do a little looking and just
ask some of the regulars off line. Just because a question appears unanswered doesn't mean it wasn't answered off line. If you want multiple opinions you'll surely get them. It does seem pointless to enter threads that have been worked over several times by the regulars and that's probably why the look of SC seems to have changed.
This is by definition a Tactical site and needs to stay that way but
there is no problem with questions of any sort that I can see. If a thread on how to skin skunks doesn't develop from a hunting question
it's no need to dismay, Somebody here knows how to do it well.
I try to watch for the simplier questions and answer them off line as some of the other do apparently. All any of us have to offer is experience and opinion and that's what you'll get and the cost is minimum to say the least. I wouldn't take anything for what I've learned here from Pablito, Scott, Rick and the Goochman not to forget the Mike the Undude, The humor of Pete, James Jarrett's philosphy and the tireless testing of Pat the bulletman, Doc, Jerry and Bill the gun guys, espec..Ken's contributions from the Mountain , Nor could we exist with Marius and our other benefactors and where would we be without Al, and the Sarge and all the others I've forgotten to list, and those others site men that are hidden behind the scenery. The ones that have faded ,Russ, Bane, and some of our foreign guests Especially Torsten
And the Norweigns, Finns and their survival knowledge and all the others have made this one of the best sites anywhere in the world. As it gets larger we will all find ourselves scanning more looking for things that fit our own interest.
That's logical and progressive.... Does my heart good to know there are men like these still left in the world. I salute you all.
No, this site hasn't lost anything it's just gained more numbers and appeals to a larger group of people because they can sense the quality
of the company they keep! Carry on troops.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 16:15:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

to all thanks fo the info on sr-25
it is a very expensive .
i like the m1a is the best automatic rifle i have
worked with, for more than 13 year end over 800 meters.

avi <>
hayfa, israel - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 17:28:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

help snipers & spotters !

"Stefan the Dutchman" put out this nice material recognition test.

Is anyone of you guys out there able to define what no 7 is ?

click here for the test <>
leafing through my Janes, tank encyclopedia in, germany - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 17:32:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Greetings Gentlemen...It's been a while since I've peeked in. I am happy to see that many of the same folks are still here. Been reading the posts and have a thought regarding politics and the Roster. It's difficult to seperate politics from the civilian shooting sector because the gov will eventually dictate what, where, how and when I may shoot. However, as much as it pains me, I will refrain.
Now, just out of curiosity, ya'll remember back when NATO was deploying troops into Kosovo? There was a gent here from ??.. Germany?? who was doing a pretty good job of flaming us regarding gun control (he was for it). He caught a lot of flack. I think Torsten may know him. I think you (Torsten) may have been at SMTC during that period. Anyway, ruffled feathers were smoothed before he deployed and now I'm just wondering where he is and how he's doing?
Sorry I can't remember more details. My CRS ain't gittin any better!!
Jim D <>
Humble, Republic of Texas, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 17:47:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

re: Where can I find info on lapping scpoe rings? Could someone explain the process to me.

You can order a kit from Sinclair International (see comes complete with all the tools and instructions. While your at it, request their catalog for yourself - they carry alot of good tools.
Curious George <>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 18:40:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Regarding the measurement of a Milradian, I believe that 1 mil= 1/1000th of the radius of a circle, as measured along perimeter of that same circle. Therefor 1 mil at 1000. meters = .9554 meter as a liner measurement.(Distance measured in a strait line from 1 point to another)
John <>
spliting hairs in , a state of Confusion, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 18:42:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
SCOPE INFO. NEEDED I just purchased a REM 700 PSS in 308. Wanting to know which would be the best scope, base, ring setup. Will use rifle for prairie dogs, coytote, and paper, out to around 600-700 yard range. Whould Mil Dot or crosshair be best. Leupold, Sringfield 3rd gen, or a BL? $800 or less. Also is the AICS stock for the REM700 short action worth the money and make that big of differance.
Want to set up right maybe for future tactical. Need help from the experts. THANKS Doug
Doug <>
USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 18:51:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

The guy you are talking about is my buddy Marco (aka McNab). He was trying to make sense of our gun-control laws here in the Netherlands which is impossible. As you can see, I'm not all for it. I believe gun-control is about USING BOTH HANDS! Unfortunately I was at SMTC at that time, together with Torsten and couldn't do anything to stop him from starting/feeding the shit-storm
I'll try to get him back to the roster but I doubt he's very willing. I'd be hesitant too if I had my balls kicked like that. Big ego's around here, for a good reason. You guys have lots to loose!


Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 21:39:37 (ZULU) (your host address:


I just read your post. Sigh... beautifull words. May I borrow your hankerchief? :-)

Bill said it all, folks. The roster is an immense source for sniper and other tactical info and I wouldn't know half as much as I know now if it hadn't been around, along with the great site it resides on and the great men and the odd woman that feed it and keep it alive!

As you were!

Stefan <>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 21:48:34 (ZULU) (your host address:



May I suggest the following (working from the action up): Badger Ordnance tapered scope base, Leupold Quick Release Weaver style rings, Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14x40mm w/duplex reticle.
This ought to get you in around $800; probably less. You can convert the scope to mid-dot reticle at a later date for tactical use (Premier Reticles). The scope base provides enough scope positions for shooting off-hand, sitting, and prone while maintaining optimal eye releif. Plus it gives you built in MOA so your scope can reach 1000 yards. And you can't beat the QRW rings to re-locate the scope forward/aft on the scope base.
CG <>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 21:57:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone have a line or link to reloading and ballistic data for the .338-Lapua Magnum? Thanks!
Steve <>
USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 22:39:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
From the desk of the Master Lapper:

Ah the lapping question!

First, invest in a quality lapping bar and compound from Brownells.

Second, eat 10 cans of spinach.

Third, prepare to purchase short sleeve shirts cause you will be able to show off some Popeye size arms.

Seriously, I have lapped 12 sets of rings since I have been on the Roster. Nothing to it except a good lap, patience and elbow grease. The Brownells lap has the instructions with it.

A few tips. Make sure your rings are perfectly lined up before starting. Brownells also has ring alignment kits which are worth there weight in gold. You are shooting for about 80% contact with the scope. Most standard rings and Mark 4's lap easily. You will have to work hard on the Badgers. Go slowly and be patient.

Bolt, out!

Bolt <>
USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 22:46:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Stefan, thank you. How could I have forgotten....Marco/McNab. Now it all comes flooding back. You and Torsten were at SMTC and one of you lost some clothing or something, right?
Well, I'm happy to see that ya'll are well. Not looking to bust anyones balls but Marco did make an impression. I'd like to see him back sometime, on friendly terms of course.
Ahhh, this is still one of the best sites on the net.
Jim D <>
Humble, Republic of Texas, USA - Monday, April 17, 2000 at 23:15:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Went to a place in the Sacto area called Wild Sports. Got some powder, primers and some Sweets copper solvent. Anyway, I was taliking to one of the salesmen there and asked if they were going to discontinue selling S&Ws. He said that they will continue to sell them. "They" being the management, feel that S&W is doing the "morally correct" thing. Hmmmm. Nice store with a decent selection.
If you shop there or if you know who I'm talking about, please call them and express your concern about them getting on the dung wagon with the Clinton mensturation.

The Sweets solvent,

Wow! It works great but the SMELL will about knock you out. Got the copper out of my .300 Weatherby though. Does anyone know if this stuff is too caustic for regular use on barrels? I'd hate to ruin a good barrel just removing copper.

Stay free! Stay hard! No compramise!!!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 00:05:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I Installing a shilen trigger on my Remington 700VS (.308), what else can be inexpensively done to enhance accuracy.

Thank you,

Mark Wall

Mark Wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 00:54:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


I have a version of the databook that will fit inside of a 40mm lens cap but its hard to keep legible data in a book that small.

The Canadians have a nice little databook about a 1.4" thick and about the size of a 3x5 card. Problem is they don't last long when they are that size. You would almost fill one up on a heavy weekend of firing.

Our (TRGT) concept was to make it able to fit into a cargo pocket on a pair of cammies. We have a Rite in the Rain memorandum book that can be used to keep notes in a "handier" format.

I have an idea for a sling that not only works with a rifle but doubles as a swiss seat and can be used to sling load a HUMMER:-)

By the way lads, we are going into the second publication of the TRGT databook soon. Thanks for you're support.

Out here.
Gooch <>
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 00:59:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

On a winchester model 70 w/synthetic stock, what purpose does the cauk serve, between the stock and action, does it affect accuracy, and if removed, what should I use to re-cauk it.
Thank you,

Mark Wall
mark wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 01:00:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

B.Douglas: Ladies...???...

I read your post with interest. Although I function in a man's world I still consider myself a Marine that happens to be a lady.
I keep quiet - I do monitor the net. To alleviate any doubt - I
have included a link to a photo of myself in my evening dress uniform.
This photo is my evening dress - but I'm much more comfortable in my
'boots and utes'.


Quiet in Quantico - but still listening and learning....

Major Kim Hunter, USMC.

Kim <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 01:23:46 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE; Schmidt und Wesson/ Colt lack of mfg.


Help me out here, and any one else (who might be a lawyer)
didn't the gov't bring a group of pro lifers to court,(using the RICOH) statutes?, for supposedly causing disruption of interstate commerce?.
I vaguely remember this being the case(any body jump in if you have any knowledge of same). The reason I've brought this up, is it seems to me the cities, and muni's are doing the same to the firearms mfgr's.
Only seems right that "turnabout means fair play",And I say again , IF that was the case & if the same principle holds true..... just a thought,.................tshoes
tshoes <> A - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 02:04:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

John: you've almost got it. There are 2 pi radians per circle, or pi radians equals 180 degrees. If you take 1/1000 th of that radian, you have a milliradian. Or another way to look at it is there are 6280 milliradians per circle in real life, or in the US there are 6400 milliradians in a circle (we round up for easier calculations). I was just reviewing this stuff helping Mom with angular momentum (physics). Of course, this has all been gone over exceedingly well by 'Lito, just thought you could use some help.

Grogan and Bolt: I also use the Sinclair product, and can personally attest that ARMS rings are WORK! From what my friend says, Leupold Mk 4 rings can be completely done within about 3 hours. My ARMS #22L's took well into 12+ hours. Not fun at all. I sure agree with needing to eat the spinach! Instructions are included with the tool, easy to use.

Mr. Gooch: You mean the TRGT books aren't currently available? I have that on my list for the "last second gear up" for Mike's class also. When is the next printing going to be available? As for the "super sling", didn't Bruce Willis and Mel Gibson use a regular HK-MP5 sling to rappel with ;-)
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 02:14:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

RE:B.Rogers disertation on the values of a diversified Roster albeit totally unrelated to tactical gunning....Yeah what he said :)

Yer doin' a fine job there fellers,keep it up.

Maj.Hunter maam looks like Ken's a lucky guy from here.We know that you are out there.

How come it is that when somebody posts one of them tear jerkin' group huggin' statements I just have to get on the bandwagon with em?
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 02:32:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mark Wall...

That "Calk" is a thermal bedding compound. It is a quick form of "glass bedding", done at the factory.
The aluminum spined rifle stocks are very good, but they don't make great contact with the action... it's impossible to machine a stock in the Dakotas, and an action in New haven, and have them fit perfectly.
Though it's not as good as glass bedding, it's much better than nothing... If you remove the thermal bedding compound, then glass bed the gun.

Hey, Bad Karma...
If the dealer said that they feel "that S&W is doing the "morally correct" thing"... how come you didn't do the "Gun owner's morally corect thing"... and leave the stuff on the counter and go some where else??
Not beatin' on you (well... maybe a little)... but they're not gonna get the message until the sales of all stuff go down in stores that still order from "C&W".

I'm not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV)... but I do remember the "right to life" thing. I don't remember if it was successful.

I find it interesting that the Klinton/Reno group are now talking about going after people that are boycotting S&W, as a criminal act... I don't know how they're going to do it... the Boycott is as American as the flag, and apple pie... hell, we invented the Boycott!!

Grogan, and Bolt-ster Dude...

I got tired of the 4 to 6 hours of lappin rings (and a very good friend just ordered a set of the 1" long "Badger" 50 cal rings for his .308... oh mano'... de'melos un breako).

I took both Sinclaire laps to a good machine shop, and had them cut down .01" (for a total reduction in dia of .02")... Wet-N-Dry Emeory and Carburundum paper is just .009". Now, I take a piece of #220, and some 50wgt oil, and have most of it done in 15 minutes... 5 minutes with #440 or #600, and 10 minutes with #1200... and they just glow!!!
'course, now I have to renew my membership to the local gym.

Now, Bolt-ster... I know I should have told you about this last year, but you were doing so well, and I figured that you needed the work-out for the Storm Mountain shoot :))


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 03:02:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kim, works for me! Nothing is sexier than a woman in woodland!

Actually I do remember seeing a post by you a couple months back now that I see your name again. Aren't you involved in some way with recruiting? I seem to remember the context of the message that I remember was helping an interested party with information on military life and how to enlist.

Perhaps I made that second post in an attempt to "out" the women readers of the roster? I have my moments of clarity.
B. Douglas <>
Baketown, Ca, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 03:14:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

YES the TRGT databooks are available. We are just preparing to print a second batch. This way we will stay in stock.

Gooch <>
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 04:17:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

To: tshoe
Re: Racketteer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO)

The kool thing about RICO is that it allows for private causes of action. Meaning, that a private citizen can bring suit in Federal Court (assuming personal jurisdiction and other civil procedural matters) under RICO, instead of having the Feds do it. The other kool thing about RICO is that it allows for trebel damages, meaning you collect triple (3x) the award amount. RICO was enacted to fight organized crime, as it encompassed just about everything that the mob did. It has been used more recently in ways that I doubt Congress conceived.

Tshoe was talking about what happened with the anti-abortion perso. A person had set up a web site called the "Nuremberg Files" which listed the names, addresses, phone #s, etc. of doctors who performed abortions. The site also offered a 'reward' for those doctors. Well, NOW the NARLA and a slew of pro-abortion groups sued the person who owned the web site under RICO, alleging that the web site was engaging in racketeering by soliciting people to kill the abortion doctors. Somehow, they won, and were awarded about a hundred million dollars in damages.

It has been suggested by a few people, myself included, that the various cities, by suing the gun manufactures, are violating RICO.

"RICO prohibits a person from engaging in activities which affect interstate or foreign commerce, including: (1) using income received from a pattern of racketerring to acquire an interest in an enterprise; (2) acquiring or maintaining an interest in an enterprise throught a pattern of racketeering; (3) conducting or participating in the affairs of an enterprise throught a pattern of racketeering; and (4) conspiring to commit any of the above offenses.

To establish a prima facie RICO claim, must allege: (1) defendant (2) through the commission of 2 or more acts (3) constituting a 'pattern' (4) or 'racketeering activity' (5) directly or indirectly invests in, or maintains an interest in, or participates in (6) an 'enterprise' (7) the activities of which affect interstate or foreign commerce."

18 U.S.C. Sec. 1962
Moss v. Morgan Stanley, Inc., 719 F.2d 5, 17

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one in law school.


David Wisniewski <>
Peoples Republic Of NJ, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 04:20:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Gooch, I was not being clear. I was thinking of a data book for the field. Small like your note book to supplement the full size version. The full size is perfect for training but I would prefer to carry something smaller in the field. I am getting old and lazy so other than my fat butt I dont want to carry much. I have just been using your note book and recording from the databook. I keep all the main records on the big book. Just thinking a notebook with some data info I guess. I would make the sling you want want your Dog said he is still pissed after having to unhook you from the first one I sent.LOL Dont get me wrong the TRGT Book is the best Period Dot! The TRGT Note Book is also the best. These are not gimicks they work folks.

Ken Hunter, saw the picture of your wife. Nice to know nice guys dont always finish last. You are a lucky man my friend.

Christ do we have another lawyer on here? I ended up friends with the last one. If it continues I will be thrown from LE

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 04:47:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Greetings all,
Could anyone familiar with the Remington M700 PSS stock and the McMillan A4 stock please tell me if the McMillan has a narrower pistol grip?
darryl <>
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 05:08:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
This is not as off subject as it will first sound.

I know I'm preachin' to the choir here, but here's my example of proof that Clinton/Reno are pushing the "anti-trust" crap JUST as political pressure:

About 1-2 years ago Mongoose (bicycles) decided to start selling to "department stores" (Wal-Mart, et al.) MANY, MANY bike shops dropped them "post haste" due to this corporate agreement and business policy that they did not agree with. NOT ONCE did anybody from the government even notice this, much less threaten "anti-trust" suits. Now we have dealers dropping S&W because of a corporate agreement and business policy they don't agree with, EXCEPT, S&W has crawled into bed with Clinton and the liberal govenors and now, Clinton and Reno are using lawyer revenge (they've been practicing for years...)

I can't see looking at a SIG, a Glock, a Beretta, and a S&W, and choosing a S&W anyway, but it is a sign of things to come. And to think, I used to try to ARGUE with a friend who said the government was no longer for the people by the people...

David Kiser <>
POed in , NC, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 09:49:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Maj. K. Hunter; You don't say much but when you do, you sure know how to make your point. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I'd say your's is a dissertation of extremely high quality. Carry on!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 11:46:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ring Lapping:

How about the kokopelli ring kit? A little expensive for us non-FFL holders but it looks like it would take alot of the work out of lapping those tough rings. It is also designed to be used with the top rings in place.
TR <>
Portland, OR, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 15:31:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Darryl, Let me get the calipers,,, OK, Rem PSS stock of @ 1994 vintage measures 54mm at the largest part of the palm swell on the grip. The McMillian A4 is 47.5mm at the largest part, but there is much more than the girth for differences, the A4 has an almost cone like vertical configuration that (at least for me) fits my hand better. The PSS stock is more conventional in shape but the larger swell makes it harder to grip. Also the A4 weighs significantly more than the PSS stock. Just my two cents. E
Eric <>
OH, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 15:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Accurizing a remington 700VS!
What is possibly the most effective gunsmithing work I can have done to my VS, that would bring it closer to it's potential accuracy level?
I am in the process of installing a shilen trigger w/1.5-3 lb. pull, I was thing about lapping the bolt next, something under the $200 price range.

Thank you,

Mark Wall
mark wall <>
carbondale, il, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 16:14:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

[Remington 700VS trigger]

I am installing a new trigger in my VS, would it be a good idea to sell the original, and if so, for how much, there are only 150 rounds through the rifle?
Thank you,
Mark Wall
mark wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 16:27:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

The world's best collection of guns.

I've just come back from Copenhagen, the capitol of Denmark. While my girlfriend made the shops unsafe I had some beers in Nyhavn and visited the museum "Toyhusmuseet" or "The Royal Arsenal Museum". The guncollection must be seen to be believed. You can follow the development from the very beginning till today. The oldest firearm on display is from ca. 1480. It is the old part of the collection wich is unique. Wheellocks, flintlocks, percussion, etc. Awesome. Ofcource there are a lot of modern weapons there. You need about 4 hours to just browse the guns on disply.

Going to Europe? If you go through Copenhagen instead of London or Amsterdam the museum is located only a 10min taxidrive from the airport. Remember to make it at least a 5 hour stopover.

Museum is open in summerseason only. tue.-sun. 1200-1700., mon. closed.

TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 16:55:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

'Lito, glad you didn't tell me about your easier method. You do know that your arms will turn in to "Girly Boy" arms now. I may put an add in the paper to lap rings for free. Beats paying for a month at the gym.

Have now given up on doing anything with the 270. A rose is a rose and a 270 is a 270, borrrrring. Will now have a 270 Sendero and a Steyr SPP to put on the market. Just can't make mind up what to get next. Still pondering a 308 semi but can't make feeble mind up on what to get. M1A, Hesse Arms, AR10, lions and tigers and bears oh my!

Major Hunter, very impressive evening attire! Wasn't in the service but I may join up. Do you folks take 45 year old guys with bad knees? Had the pleasure of dealing with another Marine Major (she was in charge or partly so, of the Marine decon teams and evaluated my team)last year at our city/county Hazmat drill. She was a hoot to work with and made alot of great suggestions on mass decon. (Didn't understand her suggestion and demonstration of giving CPR by doing compressions by standing on a soldiers chest with jungle boots but she did say that was reserved for non-com's). Gave her some advise too.

Have another boring question about ghillie suits. What happens when it gets wet? No way to blow dry in middle of stalk.

Bolt calls for extraction!
Bolt <>
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 19:57:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello Fella's

I'm thinking of getting a long-range semi-auto rifle with good accuracy. Would you please tell me what you think about the Armalite AR-10(t) in 308, and the M1Al new loaded package.
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 20:37:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey, Everybody!

Great (and I'm temted to use all caps they're so good) and cheap binos are available from the Sportsman's Guide. They are Tasco 7x35s. They compare favorably with my Steiner 6x30 Hunter model (that's the model with nitrogen filled and all the coatings at $600). These are right at $20.00, yes, twenty dollars. No, I don't work for them. This is a great deal.

Dale Pennington <>
Fox Lake, IL, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 20:43:45 (ZULU) (your host address:


When the ghillie gets wet, you just lay there and smell like mildew, it's a lovely way to spend a week.
But when you do hit the rear and get to dry the suit, you will leave an impressive loaf in the lint trap of your dryer, so hit the laundrymat, because there are a few dryers on Camp Schwab, Okinawa that were never quite the same after that process.

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 20:45:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

To mista Gooch,

Are there any TRGT log books available in a 3-ring type configuration? Being the fussy SOB that I am, I'd like the option to move the order of the pages.
Second, did Andy Webber at Armament ever make those target knobs for the Leupold variety scopes?

Semper Fi Marine

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 20:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Evening folks,

Just thought I'd chime in one more time then go into silent mode again. Your shooting comments are far more interesting than girl talk, but I just wanted to point out to B. Douglas that girls are people too :o }

Although I am all foo-fooed up in that picture, you can bet your sweet boots I'm much more comfy in my cammies. By the way, keep Ken in line when I deploy with 3rd MEF for my one year unaccompanied.

To answer another comment, I am not with recruiting command, I was trying to talk the young lad OUT of making a huge mistake. Not everyone should/can be a Marine. If you don't feel it in your heart then it can be a real miserable life. However, for the few it suits, the match is made in heaven, kinda like sniping, I've been told.

Keep on Saving the Free World.... (Screw the Commies)

Major Kim Hunter
U.S. Marine Corps
Kim <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 22:29:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Guys, just got off the phone with kevin @ C.F.I., he is the
accuracy international specialist there. I was checking on the
price & availability of the long action A.I.C.S. ( accuracy
international chassis system ) when he told me the army had
just contracted A.I. for 6-12 months of production and it will
not be available till december! He told me they are restocking
all m24 rifle systems with the A.I.C.S. What have you guys heard
that are still serving?

Bill k <>
Rancho Santa Margarita, California, USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 23:23:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Torsten; I remember that back in WWII they used some Color Blind folk to spot from the air on some Camoed sites in One or more theatres. The theory was that their wavelength sensitivities were different and slight camo differences were more visable. I believe it was also thought that they could spot ordinary equipment easier due to the often drastic differences from slight shade color differences.
Bruce; you just a softee like me man! That explains it.
Dale; The way to tell Tasco or any other low priced Bino from Steiners is to drop it 3' on Concrete. The one that doesn't go out of convergence (lens alignment) is the Steiner.
Stephan; You see guys! The good guys aren't see folks ...
there are snipers in the woods, there are always snipers in the woods and the tall grass. There are many more out there, you see, Snipers hide in the grass and watch the world from afar! You'd be surprised what Snipers hide behind and what kind of cover they use! Sometimes it's only words that hides them.
Oh yes, Torf & others if you ever get the middle of the States at Claremore Oklahoma there is museum there one should see. 20,000 guns are on display and have to be changed often so they can all be displayed. Claremore is the home of Will Rogers University just to identify it better.
I'm not sure how many they have altogether....
There is a web page on it too if anyone is interested.
line and I'm sure it'll come up.
What's really astounding is that an old guy Named J.M. Davis who liked guns and ran a hotel there acquired them mostly off the street and through word of mouth and bought them all himself over many many years. I'd love to see the one you mentioned.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Tuesday, April 18, 2000 at 23:44:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just started to get into long range shooting and I know that quality equipment is a must. I'm looking for a fair priced scope that will do the job at 500+ yards but without the $500+ price. Looking for a set-up that will go onto a modified Remington 700 PSS in .308. Any suggestions are welcome and thanx in advanced.

Jim Calder <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 00:11:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Before the subject of smart ladies fades from the site, remember that the long range game that taught me the basics of how to use the MilDot reticle was authored by Karin Christensen. Count me as a fan of her computer programming prowess!

Richard <>
HouseOfMouse, Florida, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 00:41:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

To MikeM, Gooch, Pablito, and Jim Owens

Thanks for the advice on my rifle project...Does anyone have any experience with the Schmidt&Bender Police Marksment scopes built on the 34mm tube? I'm looking into the 4-16, but the price is outrageous ($1800 @swfa). I dont mind paying top dollar for a scope, but I want what I pay for. The only other scope I looking at is the Nightforce NXS (cheaper $1100 @Lilja), but I've never used or seen the Nightforce. Any help would be appreciated,

MG <>
USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 00:44:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bill - Ref Accuracy Int'l comment, I think they are a bit early on the announcment. We just got a copy of the military model and they are "hoping" we like it. I personally think the dam thing can go away, BUUUUTTTTT, some like it. The decision is a long ways off. Accuracy cornered me last year at the Shot Show trying to get the thing into the system. Still not there and I don't know if it will ever be there.

Bolt - When the Ghillie gets wet you are stuck with it. That is why you use only 30 - 40% burlap/artifical to 70% natural camo. Natural does not get darker as the artifical does and does not weight a dam ton when it gets wet. Once the sucker is wet, always let it air dry as it will give a more natural texture to the suit. Another thing you can do for the fun of it is to make some real strong coffee and soak your suit for a couple of hours in the coffee and let it air dry. This will give all the artificial colors a "naturl color" tinge. The biggest problem with ghillie suits is that too many movies has glorified the ghillie as a giant wookie suit, and unfortunately too many have copied that travisty. That is to include spray painting blaze orange onto ghillies that "don't have nuff burlap troop!"

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 00:54:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

David Wiz , 'lito, thanks for the response's.I have been thinking the same thing,wonder why the arm's mfgr's don't use it also.
Seems we( shooting community), always wait till we get it in the shorts, before we respond, go figure.....Thanks again guys....tshoes
tshoes <>
BIG "D", TEXAS, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 01:47:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
McMillan A-2 tactical w/inlet, what is required to install this stock. Will there be any added cost, does it require gun smithing, and is it a drop in, if not, what would be a good tactical stock in the "drop in" category, and what work is required for a drop in.

Thank you, Mark Wall

mark wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 03:40:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Remington 700VS conversion!

I have a remington 700VS in .308 w/release floorplate, what would I have to do, to make it a DM(detachable magazine), just put a DM stock on?

Thank you, Mark Wall
mark wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 04:31:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kim, while getting the details all screwed up at least you were able to jar a nugget of information out of my faded memory. Thanks, appologies for the mix up.

Now, for something different. Anyone know where I might be able to get a smith to make a barrel in 6.5-308 for an AR10 in a freefloater configuration? Would there be a noticable difference between it and a 243 target upper which is easier to come by and probably much cheaper? I'd be looking at a 20-24 inch barrel. I'm not really worried about cost as this won't be my first project rifle and certainly won't be my last. I like shooting guns that are keepers. For long range shooting what twists are desirable for typical bullet weights. Even if I don't get this configuration in an AR10 upper I at least want to find a shop that does this kind of custom work on AR10s.

I've seen a company out of florida(I think) that does 8mm-308 and 7mm-08 conversions but I haven't seen the web site available for some time. I'm trying to track down that site so I can call them for prices and info but I'm having a hard time.
B. Douglas <>
Baketown, Ca., USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 05:19:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Kush, Yes I was talking to Hugo the other day and I think he said there were some of the 3 ring versions left.

As far as the "custom" knobs for the Leupold go, I haven't talked to Andy in a while. Try emailing him though his website or calling him. He is harder than hell to get in contact with though.

Out here.
gooch <>
USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 05:32:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

I've been thinking about the accurized M14/M1A. Now as I understand it, they can go south in a hell of a hurry if the bedding gets damaged. (The one I had was double lugged along with the bedding. I would like to still have it, but someone offered me a deal that was too good to pass up.)
So if pillar bedding works so well in our bolt guns, why not pillar bed a double lugged receiver into a McMillen stock? Maybe set up one of the pillars to hook into the front lug somehow to act as another recoil bearing surface. Sort of makes me want to build up another one just to test the idea.
Steve <>
south west, pennsylvania, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 06:04:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have a rem.700vs stock, that I am replacing, it is 2 months and 150 rounds out of the box. What would be a fair price to ask for this H-S stock, or should I hang on to it.

Thankyou, Mark Wall
mark wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 07:00:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

A question on breaking in barrels.

Gooch suggested some of you may be able to provide me with information regarding barrel break in procedures - at the moment my knowledge is limited to clean after each of the first ten FMJ rounds, and then after every couple for another ten. Sound about right ?

MG, regarding Schmidt and Bender Police. I was surprised at the price of these optics stateside. I have finally found something that is cheaper in the UK (though not much). They are an excellent scope - as long as you don't mind spendinfg some extra money on 34 mm mounts. Accuracy International (of L96 / AW fame) use the 34 mm scopes and produce mounts to suit.

Southern Gun Centre on +44 (0)1803 558142 or fax +44 (0)1803 550722 are offering a arnge of S & B scopes at lower prices. The 1.5-6 x 42 'sniper' with P-3 mil dot is 595 pounds, a 3-12 x 50 is 750 pounds, a 4-16 x 50 is 925 pounds. Still al lot of money mind !


Dom <>
Cardiff, Wales - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 07:05:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Mark Wall,
I found the same thing in my M-70 Win Heavy Varmint,the goo that they put in on the aluminum started to seperate, and I thought my accuracy was slipping a one call to Brownells and the Steel-Bedding kit was on the way....after digging out the rest of the gunk and degreasing the aluminum block I smeared in the bedding material and presto,......A super fit,.......the only thing that I noticed was that the aluminum block are completely covered, in other words the action dose not sit on the aluminum block but in the bedding material..........

What is the opinion of those here on S.C. of an Armalite M15A4TC
is it worth the money that they are asking for it?.......$1200.00 to $1300.00 most places.........

Biggunn <>
Mtn. Country, where things are starting to get green in..., Pa., USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 08:56:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

On barrel break in... Wanna know what Gale McMillan Thinks about it...go to:
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 12:05:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

You can't convert the stock Remington to the clip style because I believe Remington had to cut the inside rails on the clip fed rifles to get the clip to fit. I could be wrong but I think this is the case. In my humble opinion the drop mag is the best and I would trade you in a heart beat if I had one to trade, I would keep what you have. I think H&S makes a conversion if you need a clip style but I don't know what is involved in the conversion.

Bad Karma,
Sweets is great esp. for the hot rods, I have used gallons of it and wouldn't be without it. I use it as part of my regular cleaning and have never had problems with it. You just don't want to leave it in the barrel for any period of time, only a minute or two and then when your copper is gone reclean with hoppes or something similar.

I think most stocks have a narrower pistol grip than the PSS I can't say for sure on the A-4 but my A-2 does and I think Mike M has an A-4 and could probably tell you for sure. If your half handy you can cut down the one side of the PSS and round it off and reglass it and you then have a nice feeling stock. I did on mine and love it now.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 12:52:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

B. Douglas - You need to check out Stewart Wilson (http//, if you have'nt already done so. He will build an AR-10 in any .308 based caliber, including 6.5-08. Don B /Tn.
Don Black <>
Memphis, Tn, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 13:24:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
On the A2 and A4 stocks. I have a 308 with an A2 stock and a 300 with an A4 stock. Both have forearm accessory rails. The forearms appear to be the same width on both, but I have not measured them for the exact size.
TonyY <>
Islen, NJ, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 14:29:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
I recently put on an AICS stock on my 700PSS. Here's my 2 cents:

The claims:
Improve accuracy by 1/4 - 1/2 - maybe if your barrel wasn't floated in the old stock.

zero retension on action removal and re-float - yes, however, I've found that the action really doesn't settle until after about 10 rounds have been fired and needs to be re-torqued at this time.

It's HEAVY and I wouldn't want to creep with it. I'm not a sniper though.

raised cheek weld gets in the way when punching bore.

NICE FEEL....I must admit I shot two of my best groups using this stock. It fits me well.

cheek weld is nicely molded to provide easy consistent placement.

magazine is single stack and solid - much more durable than the Rem DM.

Magazine OAL must be longer than Rem DM. I loaded 2.880 OAL Amax's that fit the mag fine but got hung up just under the ramp. I'll be experimenting with this next but I'm going to guess that a 2.870 OAL would cycle. So for you handloaders that hate the long throat....

Overall impression:
heavy but durable.
weight and decelerator make for less felt recoil.
it's comfortable.
mag feeding was flawless and smooth with Fed GM 168gr.
10 round mags available soon if this is important to you.
breakpoint <>
USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 14:56:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

On Stocks, the McMillan A2,A3 and A4 all seem to be the same in the pistol grip area. All are thinner than the HxS Stocks in the pistole grip. The A4 forend is a copy of the McHale and for my money the only place I would change the stock. I wish they had gone with the slimmer A3 version. The rear of the A4 is like an A3 with a hand hold chunk taken out. That is very nice for prone shooting. The whole stock is built like a tank, but like the A2 the A4 is heavier than the A3. Both the A2 and A4 have heavier forends than the A3.

I have tried shooting with the McMillans without bedding and they shoot fine, but here is the thought. If you are willing to spend the money for the stock why not spend the cash to have the rifle bedded and get the most out of it? It seems like false economy to me. Race cars all share common parts but how the parts are installed has alot to do with performance. Sniper rifles are the same.

On scopes, I have tested both the SxB P2 and the Nighforce NXS, both are excellent. I imagine if you bought a SxB and a NXS in Germany the price difference would be less. Try both and pick what one suits you best. You wont be sad with either.

Well time to ry and fix a sewing machine. This dammed contraption has been giving me fits for two weeks. Just put in 50.00 worth of parts and now something else broke.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 15:22:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don Black, thanks that's a start. It wasn't the site I have visited in the past of but it helps that's for certain.
B. Douglas <>
Baketown, Ca, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 15:49:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Steve on pillar bedding the M1-A:

At this point just about every trick you can imagine has been pulled on the M14 in order to get to to not only shoot, but to keep shooting for extended periods without armorer intervention. The results of this multi decade, multi service search have been decidedly spotty. Double-luggling can help a great deal, particualrly in combination with a McMillan stock and if you take the torque off of the bedding screws between shooting sessions. If you do this you may just be able to get a bedding job to last as long as a barrel. Otherwise, its a crap-shoot. There are techniques similar to pillar bedding that also can help to extend the life of your bedding but ultimatly these are only so efective. Not only is the bedding situation complicated but there are any number of other things that can go awry with these rifles as well, including loose op rod guides, collapsed gas cylinder spacer shims, cracked flash supressors, loose hand guards, galled pistons, broken welds in the unitized gas cylinder assembly, loose gas cylinder and flash supressor splines, leaky spindles...lots of stuff. Its a high-maintenece weapon system on a good day. I love the M14 for many purposes but if I wanted a 1 MOA or beter rifle that would stay that way, I'd either get an AR-10 derivative or a bolt gun.

Tom Simspon <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 16:27:09 (ZULU) (your host address:

Tom Simspon: Please don't take this like I'm taking you to task, or trying to say you're wrong, that's not my purpose.
What you say is true, but most of the statements made point to the smith. Yes, parts do break, but if I were a gambling man, I'd put my money on US GI parts, not commercial parts that don't interchange with the M-16's GI parts, like the AR-10 extractor. Bedding problems? One skim bed job per barrel. So what. If I were looking for a 1 MOA rifle, I'd just order straight out of the Springfield Armory catalog, since they will GUARENTEE 1 MOA on some of their rifles. And the ones I'm talking about don't have a Kreiger heavyweight barrel or McMillan stock. As you say, these things have been done for decades. That's why they're still around. They've been done AND THEY WORK. If you wonder how well the AR-10 type works, ask Patron Dave. Everytime I hear (or in this case see) POS-6000, I start laughing at the image or poor Reed Knight with those troops PERSONALLY delivering faulty rifles. As for me, I'll take my M1A (now a-la M-25) over the AR types any day. As far as I'm concerned (OPINION) the M1A is the greatest gas gun that has ever been loaded.

Patron Dave: those rifles come home yet? ;-)
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 17:30:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

What is POS 6000? Thanks
Jim <>
PDX, Or., USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 17:38:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
AICS: Breakpoint,
Remove and return to zero - trust no one.
Coming from a military background - I never can understand why we want to keep taking a rifle apart then expecting it to shoot the same.
The AICS benifits from my view are all ergonomic - and didn't expect it to shoot any better than another stock. I agree on the cleaning the check piece is a bitch - but it gives a great position. As far a creeping tape/cover up some of its holes and it is a nice piece Weight - the 2x4 stock we had on our old C3 makes an anvil look light and manuverable (making one rifle a target rifle and sniper rifle doesn't work).
Kevin <>
Canada - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 19:50:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Uh oh, more debate on the AR10/SR25 v/s M1A. Does this seem a bit like the 45ACP crowd versus the high cap/high vel. crowd?

Been there seen that. I'm first to admit that the AR type 308s have seen a bit of trouble but they are fairly new and it's gonna take a bit of time to work the kinks out. The bighammer discussion boards were talking about some of the SR25 problems and the problems are similar to the problems the AR10 has had in the past, when SR25 guys start bashing the AR10 guys it's pretty much just a stupid argument now that the SR25 is earning it's own reputation for misfeeds.
Problems seem to be due to carrier keys not being staked on correctly and causing nice feeding problems. I've also heard the SR25 likes delinked M60 ammo more than it likes match ammo.

I agree the M1A is a great gun but it doesn't take optics as easily as an AR10/SR25 does. Rebarreling one of the Stoner type weapons is a piece of cake provided that as long as the 308 AR makers keep an eye on the little things, making the AR series rifles shoot seems to be an easier job than with the M1As. Currently the M1A is a wise choice as it's reached it's plateu but I feel it may soon be dethroned once the guys building Stoner type rifles do their job correctly.

Personal history with my AR10 A4 with a standard chrome lined barrel is shooting at the 1 inch(rarely over that by much) area for 5 shots at 100 yards. Moving to a match barrel and free float job should only improve things more and all I'll have to worry about is changing an upper and moving to a target trigger group. Not to mention I can change calibers at will now. The only problem I've had is with ammo, some Federal ammo likes blowing primers down into the trigger group and even a couple unfired primers have jarred loose on feeding, not really my problem there. Since I started reloading for this gun I've enjoyed zero malfunctions in about 1000 rounds. I have yet to shoot this gun too dirty to feed, not to say I'm trying my hardest here but 300 rounds in a day is a fair amount of shooting for a target type rifle.

The one thing that makes me shed a tear about the AR10 series rifles is the cost of magazines and the source of the mags, M14 mags have to be hacked up to work in the AR10. After you buy a 35 dollar used M14 magazine from Coles Distributing and then a 47 dollar conversion kit from Armalite(so you can switch between AR10 and M14 magazines) you end up with an expensive 20 round magazine to bon for that gun. I recently found a guy who will leave enough of the M14 lug on my remaining M14 magazines so that I can use the magazines in both AR10 and in M14 without having to buy the stupid conversion kit.
B. Douglas <>
Baketown, Ca., USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 20:38:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

I believe
Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 20:41:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
<every time I screw up and forget my email address, the system shortens my post ...sorry>

I believe "POS 6000" is a term of endearment coined for the Stoner SR-25, not to be confused with the Armalite AR-10, which is a different rifle.

P.O.S. may stand for "Piece of Shooting Iron", or something alot like that. I believe the failure of extractors on a number of these SR-25s delivered to the special forces guys resulted in a "returned in person" situation.
James_mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 20:42:24 (ZULU) (your host address:


I don't own an AR10, or a stoner SR-25... but when I heard the phrase "POS-6000", it was in the context of "Piece Of S--t - 6000"... and the the "Sinister" rascal who said it, know's his stuff.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 22:01:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

This is a small detail, but important. Who know of a quality SLING SWIVEL suitable for a tactical type rifle. Any comments are welcome and appreciated.
chase <>
PAT, (mrbullet), you are correct sir on the DM recievers.
The 700"s, indeed have been "MODIFIED", per direct conversation w/ REM. Rails have been (altered). FYI....tshoes
tshoes <>
USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 22:59:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have been an audience to this site for over a year and have really enjoyed it. I have gotten quite a bit of useful information and amusement from the post here also. Keep up the good work to all. I currently have six heavy barrel rifles in the most popular varmit calibers which include .223 Rem., .22-250 Rem., .220 Swift, and .243 Win. My .30 cal. tactical rifle is a Rem. PSS in .308. This rifle is set up with Leupold Mk.IV M1 in a D.D. Ross one piece mount. The receiver screws have been custom made and torqed to 65 in. lbs. and the trigger has been smoothed and lightened. All of my rifles shoot into less than 1 MOA. (closer to 1/2. I just finished working up a load for the .308 and I just thought I would share the results with those here. My handload consisted of Fed. match brass, 44 gr. of BLC-2 powder, pushing a Sierra 168 gr. match hp., ignited with CCI large rifle standard primer. The attached url shows the group fired at 100 meters. There are 6 rounds in the group, 3 with 43.5 grs. and 3 with 44 grs. of powder. I settled on 44 grs. due to keeping the velocity around 2650 fps. The grids on he target are 1". Again I say to all, keep up the good work and lets keep the shooting sports alive, teach a kid to shoot and be responsible..........Rick

Rick I. <>
Richmond, Va., USA - Wednesday, April 19, 2000 at 23:58:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

opps...the url didn't show up......
Rick I. <>
Richmond, Va., USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 00:01:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

B. Douglas: Man, you've hit this one on the head! I must admit though, first off so that everyone knows how I stand, that when it comes to logic, I'm a total (well, virtually) rat. A rat doesn't stand on ego when the ship it chose is sinking, it takes off. I'll change to an SR/AR when they do overtake the M1A, but not until (and I do beleive that they EVENTUALLY will). Another corolary to this is that my Momma didn't raise a guinea pig. My Dad carried the M-14 after having his M1 Garand taken away. HE tested it for me under worse conditions than I hope mine ever sees. And I take his word for how it worked like the gospel I beleive it to be.

I'm betting though that it's gonna take a while for the SR's to overtake the M1A's, and therefore I shoot the M1A now. As for the 45 ACP crowd goes, well, let's just say that I'm a logical rat on that one too, although I can honestly say that the 1911A1 is the best designed pistol (IN MY OPINION) extant.

Just to confirm your suspicions, I too have heard that the SR's shoot as well with the 147 FMJ's as well as match ammo. Don't know how that one works, but it's a good trick to be sure!

I think your statement on taking optics though might be a TOUCH dated. You can get two of the best mounts out there at this time - or within a short wait ;-) - the ARMS #18 and the Brookfield. With either one, mounting (if done correctly) of optics is cake. As for rebarreling, I didn't hear my smith complain about it (as of today, my Springfield Armory receiver now wears a brand new Kreiger 1:10 heavyweight stainless match barrel that was turned by Barnett's, and I'm anxious as a... a.... well, I'm anxious as something that's REALLY REALLY anxious, to try it out), but I don't know specifics. I agree totally though that the M1A technology is about as good as it's going to get. Certainly small advances will be made, but nothing as major as with the SR's.

Besides, I couldn't sleep at night if I were responsible for hacking up a good bunch of US GI mags - JOKE!

As for the POS-6000 statement, well, let's just say it was somewhat derogatory. When they get ALL the kinks worked out, it'll make a great rifle, until then though, you won't find my "real" rifle with less than US GI or better parts in it, and for most parts, that's a hard one to top, and there are enough surplus M-14 parts out there now that one could weld them all together and have a new aircraft carrier :-)

JUST MY OPINION! But if anyone can show me a flaw in my logic, I'll change my opinion right now, er, AFTER I shoot this new barrel :-)
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 01:48:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

D.M. floor plate?

Does anyone know if the H-S pst12 stock come with a d.m. floor plate
system. If not, where can I get one for a rem.700, in .308

Thank you, Mark Wall
mark wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 02:46:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey, this sling swivel thing addressed by Chase needs to be answered (I never questioned these Uncle Mike's things until I read this) if possible. I can say from having a M1 Carbine drop on the pavement that the non-lock type Uncle Mike's are a "no-go". Heavy duty and fits standard studs would be the ticket. Beuler? Anyone? Anyone? (Thanks Chase!)
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 03:10:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
Interesting comments by Mr Mac on barrel break in. Yous guys need to check it out if you havent already.

gooch <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 03:39:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hmmmm Mr. McMillan's comments certainly seem to make sense! I am picking up my ne Jerry Rifle tomorrow and I would rather just shoot & clean and not get to neurotic about the whole process.

Michael Sheehan <>
San Hoe, CA, USA - Thurstay, April 20, 2000 at 04:42:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

where's this thing on barrel break-in?
...some date you could point me in?
i'd like to read it.
kg <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 05:09:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thanks for the link to the Firing Line site.
S#*t! Now I don't know what to think about bbl. break-in.
I do know this, though. My M1A shoots sub moa all day long (when I do my part) and cleans very easily. It has a SA med. NM Bbl. I did not break it in per the accepted manner. BUT, it is cleaned scrupioulesly (used to be able to spell that, must be the Sweet's) after each session. I use Hoppe's BR or Bench Rest and follow w/ Sweet's. Then "kill" the Sweet's w/ another scrub of the Hoppe's or BR,dry, then Hoppe's oil. Dry it before the next session. Just tonight I ran a little JB down it to remove the scunge in the throat, but doubt I will anymore after reading McMillan's article.
BTW I learned this cleaning technique from this site. Even the Corps didn't teach me that. So you newbies to the site can rest assured that these "Hard-Holders" know what they're talking about.
My 2 cents... This site is F#*@ing OUTSTANDING! And I appreciate you regulars w/ your sharing attitudes.
P.S. Gooch, did you get the E-mail on that range @ Coalinga, Ca. that I sent?
dennis <>
merced, californicateya, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 05:34:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
sorry if i'm just barkin...
but what's that "avenging angel" s#!t in the Emporium?
shouldn't the powers that be remove that?
i'm sure he's gotten scads of witty hate mail by now but i wouldn't suggest spamming him (it's distance best kept between you and thses kinda nutz). his post could look really bad to someone stopping by this site for the first time.

kg <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 06:04:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo & Chase,

Check Brownell's for the sling swivels, they have several different options that fill your needs...MG
MG <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 07:09:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am having difficulty contactin people through Outlook Express. It just does not seem to connect. Is there any way to get the person's email address and send it to them personall instead of clicking on their name and getting defaulted to Outlook Exoress?
Andy <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 10:45:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

For the Mr. McMillan barrel break in, go up 25 posts, on Apr 19, 1205 Zulu by Jim Mitchell.

Kush out
kush <>
buffalo, ny, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 11:35:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

ABOUT THE TRGT LOGBOOK. This is a great logbook. Plenty of information. Its printed on RITE IN THE RAIN paper and they also have a cover you can buy for it. They also have a three ring binder type. I have used or seen different logbooks and this one is the best. Great work Gooch. Give Hugo a call at TRGT and order one.
C.C., TX, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 12:13:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Can anyone give me an educated opinion on the accuracy and durability of rifles produced by both Texas Brigade and Iron Brigade (Chandler) Armories? I have read a couple of reviews on the Chandler rifles but they were both on Iron Brigade's web site! In particular reference to the Iron Brigade rifles - what sort of bedding is used? Someone told me they are glue-in guns!!

I know most custom rifle makers (for tactical application) claim 1/2 M.O.A out of their rigs at 100yds (in 7.62 NATO) but again, what I would like to know is how these Texas and Iron Brigade rifles manage in the 800yd range.

All help would be appreciated

Justin Palandri <>
Perth, WA, Australia - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 12:19:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

SR-25 match
From personal experience I can tell you the SR-25 will shoot M-80 147 grain ball ammunition just as well as 168 grain match ammo at shorter ranges. A plus with this is that the rifle functions better (at least mine did) and no more blown primers etc from too tight of a chamber.
Reed Knight are you listening??????
Mictac <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 12:45:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
Both of these rifles are suppose to be top notch. Chandlers are suppose to be the best but then so is the price. They are "Bedded" in actions not "Glued in". What you pay for is all the extra work that is done to them to make them surive and shoot under the harshest conditions or making them "GI Proof". As far as how well will they shoot at 800 yards, how well can you shoot at 800yds??? I have seen a group that was shot with the TBA that was nearly half MOA at 1000yds then again I have done that with a Remington VS but only once and I am sure that was luck but the point is, both guns have the capability to shoot extremly well under the right conditions and with a capable shooter. You may want to check out Nor Cals guns and also ATIs guns they too make some pretty fine weapons as I understand. You can get first hand accounts on these from Mike and Gooch. All my rifles are capable of under .5 MOA accuracy but there are days when one or both of us don't seem to do our jobs and I can really get frustrated "IT" if you know what I mean.(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 13:01:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Kevin on AICS:
Agreed that ergonomics provide most of the benefit. Overall, I like the stock and would recommend it. I think it has tactical application as well as benchrest and sniper. Tape is a must though - especially the noisy sling mounts and open accessory rail. I was 0311 and taped everything. I guess the weight vs. increased accuracy due to better fit is a trade off each sniper will have to make. I'm not saying the weight is prohibitive - only that it weighs more than the HS stock.
breakpoint <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 13:09:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Give Jim Ryan a call at Tactical Ordinance ( ) They are rebuilding one of my Rem 700's as we speak, they are the company who built the rifle that was given away to the Hathcock shoot at SMTC. I talked to Jim at great length on what I wanted, he was great.
They have lots of options and like any other of the custom rifle makers, can make what you want

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 13:32:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Breakpoint - Total agreeance on tape. When Mike UndDude and Jerry Rice looked mine over the consensus was to drill and tap for normal sling swivels and ditch the AI ones. Once again I (my humble opinion) think they had a great design that got slightly compromised by all the add on's. (Its either a sniper rifle or its not - lets not start trying to accomodate others at the expense of the primary role).

Anyone with any clout with AI - ditch the usless sling swivels and bring out the 10rd AICS mag sometime soon.
Kevin <>
Canada - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 15:09:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

ok...i got 2 things for ya. Number one: my state here is going crazy over handguns. I understand that MA is now going to start making handguns illegal...i dont know the exact details...I heard rumblings from a friend & then checked w/my dad (who keeps current on this stuff...). I dont know what the hell is going on, but, people, we all need to get together & start petitioning our elected officials to put a stop to this. Once it happens in one state, it can happen in others...and its easier once there is precedence. You can stop laws rom being passed a whole lot easier than you can revoke them once they've gone thruogh...keep that in mind. If anyone out there has any more info on this, feel free to email me. I work a lot...and usually get news secondhand. I just want to find out more about what is going on...this state gets really anal over firearms. They need to take a look at WHO causes the problems with firearms, not just at the firearms themselves. A pistol (or any weapon) in itself is inert. Add the human factor to it, thats when the problems come out. People, we need to educate,not take away rights. There is a serious flaw in the logic here. K...done venting.
econd thing....totally unrelated. i am also an avid backpacker, & get acatalog in the mail once a month (roughly). This month, they had binos in it...stieners no less. This particular place sells them for like I figured I'd pass on this info to all who come here. Anyway...see the link below.
check it out...its well worth saving money.
bill R <>
gardner, ma, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 15:53:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Did your Dad happen to mention which he preferred, the Garand or the M14? I have both, M1 & M1A, and I still can't decide which I like better! They each have seperate qualities and I seen a lot of heated arguments in favor of each.

Jim D
Jim D <>
Humble, Texas, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 16:21:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

AARRGGHH, which forum on the Firing Line is the post made. Pulled what few hairs I had left searching all the forums. If you find it, Copy/Paste it to here.

Being analy retentive on cleaning and breakin, this may break my heart but am willing to read it.

Bolt waits with skeptical look on face.
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 16:27:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

WTD> PSS D.M. floor plate.

I would like a detatchable magazine on my rem700 pss.
I would appreciate any suggestions on where to get one or any offers of sale.
mark wall <>
carbondale, IL, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 17:22:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

What is the optimum barrel length for a .50bmg for long range target shooting?
Jeff <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 17:32:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

What to do now. Gale McMillan has busted my cleaning bubble and I know not what to do. I feel like the gal that is on the floor and can't get up. We need heated discussion on this breaking in thing folks. I know opinions are like anal pores but something has got to give here. There has to be some scientific and/or quantitative analysis to back up the extremes here.

What's a mother to do????????

An extremely perplexed Bolt sits bhack and waits for the PROOF!
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 20:06:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Anyone out there have any dealings with Botach Tactical ( We placed an order on March 20th for various items, had them 3 day it to us, when we recieved the shipment they sent us six pairs of the wrong muffs. No problem a phone call and they said ship them back we'll send you the right ones. So we did. That was one month ago, I've had nine conversations with them and they have promised to send my items out each time. The last time was Monday, still no muffs. This is one federal agency that probably won't be using them again. Good prices, no service.
Just one mans experience, but let the buyer beware. Anyone else have a similar problem?
Danny Reever
Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 20:10:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone out there have any dealings with Botach Tactical ( We placed an order on March 20th for various items, had them 3 day it to us, when we recieved the shipment they sent us six pairs of the wrong muffs. No problem a phone call and they said ship them back we'll send you the right ones. So we did. That was one month ago, I've had nine conversations with them and they have promised to send my items out each time. The last time was Monday, still no muffs. This is one federal agency that probably won't be using them again. Good prices, no service.
Just one mans experience, but let the buyer beware. Anyone else have a similar problem?
Danny Reever
Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 20:11:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
I think somebody needs a 5 minute time out in the corner! Ahem, Bolt, I'm talking to you.

Well gotta go back to work now.
B. Douglas <>
Baketown, Ca, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 20:32:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Don't know if all those messages are Bolts fault.
I see mine showed up twice, this is after I recieved an error message on both tries. So even if it say's message not sent it's obvious that they indeed are getting to the Roster.

Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, pa, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 20:58:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

SCOPE QUESTION I have a REM 700 PSS in 308. Need some info on Leupold 3.5-10-40 LR M1, M3 Mil-dots. Will use for prairie dogs, coyotes, and paper at 500 to 800 yard range. I know that the M3 has 1 moa clicks and the M1 has 1/4 clicks. Are there any other differances? Scope will be in badger rings and bases. How hard are either of these to sight in. Was wondering because or the M3s 1" clicks. Which would be better for my use as I have no idea. Or woud the leupold 6.5-20-50mm LR w/30mm tube and 78 moa adjustments w/mil-dot. All these are about the same money. THANKS for any help Doug
Doug <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 21:00:01 (ZULU) (your host address:




Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, pa, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 21:14:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sling Swivels.. Hate'm... They are noisy, they break and they ...suck! I've had a design for a precision tactical rifle stock for years that does away with them. Anyone know a company that might be interested in building it? JR???

As far as custom guns go. In my mind there are three options.

No particular order..

Armament Technology C-24. Uses HS Precision stock, DBM etc. Very user friendly in the field. US Army M24 SWS IMPROVED.

Chandler. Mac stocks, USMC M40A1 IMPROVED.

Autauga Arms. Will build on either stock. Knew a shooter who shot a Autauga barreled action in a match last year. Dropped it in a HS stock and it drove nails.

And that's the truth.

Gooch <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 21:25:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Danny, in regards to Botach, I have had only one problem with them. I have been ordering items from them for several years now. The one time was for a Cammel Bak. It took them forever to deliver it to me so I cancelled the order. However, I justed placed an ordered several months ago for a Pelican 1750 Hard Case. It arrived 3 working days later. Don't know why you are having problems but I have been satisfied with them except that one time. Maybe they got very busy????

Semper Fi
Darren <>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 22:01:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

Scope Question
I have a REM 700 PSS in 308. NEED help. Looking at a Leupold
3.5-10-40 LR M1 or M3 w/mil-dot. What is the difference between them.
I know the M1 has 1/4" clicks, the M3 has 1" clicks. The scope will be in Badger bases and rings. Will be shooting prairie dogs, coyotes, and paper in the 500-800 yard range. Have no idea which one would be better for my use. Are these scopes hard to sight in? Wondering because of the M3 1" clicks. Or would the Leupold 6.5-20-50 LR w/30mm tube w/78" internal adjustmant be better. Want to set rifle up right the first time. THANKS for any help Doug
Doug <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 22:58:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
I have a REM 700 PSS in 308 Looking at Leupold 3.5-10-40 LR M1, M3 w/mil-dot. Have no idea which would be better for my use. Shooting prairie dogs, coyotes, paper at 500-800 yards. What are the differances between the two? I know the M1 has 1/4" clicks and the M3 has 1" clicks. Are these hard to sight in? Wondering because of the 1" clicks on the M3. The scope will be in Badger bases and rings. Or would the Leupold 6.5-20-50 LR w/30mm tube be better. THANKS for any help Doug
Doug <>
Newton, IA, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 23:07:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
Okay - ladies and gents....

The multiple post problem has been detected, ranged, and terminated.
I took a quick pass and de-multipled most of the obvious posts.

Marius - loox like some one forgot to set proper permissions on the reverse duty roster html file.... and my wife's husband is not the culprit :)

Anyhow, I return you to your duty roster...

Ken :}

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 23:25:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Leupold M1 or M3
Are these scopes the same except for the M1 1/4" clicks and the M3 1" clicks? Will ues for coyotes and punching paper at 500-800 yards. Rifle is a REM 700 PSS in 308. WHICH ONE THANKS Doug
Doug <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 23:44:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of
break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next
time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is
about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they
change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I
will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it
every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last
time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it
ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by
two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are
a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning
every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is
shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see
Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening
inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in
W.B.Yeats <>
USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 23:53:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jim D: I don't know which one he preferred estically, never asked that particular question. I'll ask this weekend. For business purposes he preferred the M-14, but due to the problem at hand. Seems that his MOS had him firing from an aerial platform mostly, and a "dotted line to target" with tracer did the best for him with both the M-14 and the M-60. Did well enough to receive medals from Gen Stilwell personally (and pics to prove it!). When it came time for me to call one my own, I did such with the Garand. If the Garand had optics mounting capability (yeah, I tried the M1D, etc), I'd never have moved to the M1A. For my purpose, it's the better of the two. No optics required? Garand time. BTW, if you want to impress me, just show me how you keep control of a M-14 in full auto fire, and 'Lito, neither one of us is your size ;-)

Trivia time: what caliber was the M1 Garand designed for (easy)?
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Thursday, April 20, 2000 at 23:59:05 (ZULU) (your host address:


What to do now. Gail McMillan has busted my cleaning bubble and I know not what to do. I feel like the gal that is on the floor and can't get up. We need heated discussion on this0breaking in thing folks. I know opinions are like anal pores but something has got to give here. There has to be some scientific and/or quantitative analysis to back up the extremes here.

What's a mother to do????????

An extremely perplexed Bolt sits bhack and waits for the PROOF!

Bolt <>
USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 01:31:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Trivia time: what caliber was the M1 Garand designed for (easy)?
.276 caliber.
Check this website:

If the site has already been posted, please accept my apologies.
Time constraints have pruned my "lurking" to once a week.


Utgardaloki <>
Illinois, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 01:57:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

M1 Garand in 30.06
A real sweet shooter.
Too bad about the ammo clip.
It coulda been perfect if not for the 8 round clip.

Utgardaloki <>
Illinois, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 02:04:39 (ZULU) (your host address:


Has anyone seen the new Choat folding stock for bolt guns? NIce full page add and priced under $300, whats up with this. Lists all the features we should want. Has anyone used or seen one?

MJ <>
Monterey, Left, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 02:13:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sling swivels... Hate them. THey are noisy, they break and they...just plain suck. I've had a stock design roughed out for a couple of years that would do away with them. Anyone know of a company that might be interested in building a "No Bull" precision tactical rifle stock. JR????

Gooch <>
USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 02:37:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Barrel break in; The only thing that's really important is to clean fairly often at first so that you don't shoot over too much shaved crap in cheap barrels. Good barrels aren't nearly as critical. Those bullets will eventually smooth the barrel anyway after a couple of hundred rounds. The main difference as I see it is with good barrels you don't have throat errosion to set in before the barrel gets smooth enough to shoot good. If it's rough (can be evidenced by excessive copper fouling) lap the sucker. If it's not just clean it more at first and less later on.
Clean it everytime you use it and you won't have any problems.
Buy good barrels and clean them reasonably and don't waste ammo trying to break it in unless you just like to shoot and clean.
Fire lapping if done right works fairly well but don't do it if the barrel is good to start with. If you get good performance don't sweat it.
I hadn't heard about the conspiracy to cause barrel wear by break in procedure but that's about all it's good for in my old worn out book.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 03:57:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
Gooch; I share your affection for sling swivels... there has to be a better way. Even that Ruger thing works better than the common swivel.
Good luck.. hope you have a good idea. I've seen more ruined rifles and scope from sling swivel failures than about anything else. IF one end of that sling comes loose the barrel usually hits the ground like a 3 iorn at full swing.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 04:02:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
Pat and Kush

Thanks for your feedback. Pat, in answer to your question, I'm sure it would be me found wanting, and not the rifles, at 800yds+!

Any more opinion welcomed. Also, anyone got the good oil on nightforce scopes?

Justin <>
Perth, WA, Australia - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 05:27:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

I wander if your sling/stock idea isn't the same as mine. I can't beleive there are no takers for a new patentable idea that could take the precision shooting world by Storm (pun intended).

Paul M.
Paul M. <>
USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 07:58:27 (ZULU) (your host address:

On sling swivels - I like the butt side design on the K-98 (ala WW2). Sling goes right through the stock. Seems we continually fail to learn from the past.

There is a comment several posts above this one where someone cut and pasted Gale McLillan's comments without giving him credit for the words. Just my opinion...but to me, that's a major no-no.

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 11:53:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, took the day off yesterday to hit the range. Took my brand new George Gardner (GA Precision) Rem 700 custom .308 for her maiden voyage.

Shooting handloaded 175 sierras with either 44 gr Varget or 43.5 of IMR 4064, shot five different five shot patterns.

I won't quote stats, cause I'm not to be trusted with a ruler or any other precision measuring device in the field.

Let's just say anything that wasn't touching the same hole was my fault. The last five shot group looked like one ragged hole at 100 yards, maybe the width of one and a half bullets at it's widest (that's the narrow dimension of the bullet for you wise guys).

I finally have a rifle that I can comfortably say shoots WAY BETTER THAN I DO.

By posting this, I have probably ensured that George will be too busy to take my next custom job, but the guy deserves the credit.

Jim Mitchell <>
NJ, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 12:07:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey Guys,

Best kept secret in Pennsylvania is D&R Sports Center at they have Federal GM308M in 168 or 175 for $13.42 a box! Harris bipods for $45.30! It's worth checking out.

Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 12:30:22 (ZULU) (your host address:


I just finished re-reading "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross and in the book the two guys out shooting PD's in Wyoming have a laptop that they have ballistics program on.THey used it quite effectively against a 4 or 5 varmints they rean into out there :)

Two questions: This seems a good idea to me, for out in the field busting varminsts. What are some of the pro's and cons of the various ballistics programs?

Second Question:

I was just looking at my 3com Palm Pilot and had a great idea....Does anyone know of a ballistics program for the Palm or know someone with the skills to write one? :)

How about having all your ballistics tables and loads in your shirt pocket...Palms are cheap these days too.

Bob Jiantonio <>
Venice, FL , USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 15:25:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bob J...

More than a few people have tried to write computer code to get the little pilots to run ballistics, but nobody has suceeded. They just don't have the smarts.

Most longrange shooters run the numbers at home, and make notes in a log book, and verify (important!!) the data in the field.

I think the main use of the programs is to run "What if" scenerios, comparing one bullet (or other variable) to others.
Some programs are very accurate, and some bullet makers BC's are very accurate...

But many other programs use old protocols, and many bullet makers "Guess" at the BC, using a form/shape chart, like the old "Dupont" chart... so the data may not play in the field at all.

If you run your data at home, and make notes on a page, there isn't any reason to have a computer in the field.

And think how much room the laptop will take in your ice cooler... it gets hot in South Dakota, in August, out on the flats ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 16:38:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey, at a guy is selling a Remington SR8 "as seen in Tactical Shooter" May 98 in the Daisy ad. Look under Daisy in the tac rifle sec. Read the article for the Daisy info.

Jim <>
PDX, Or, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 18:00:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

To Bob, Re Palm Pilots and balistic programs.
Instead of a a palm pilot why not use a wristwatch. I have a Timex datalink watch that contains basic elevation and windage data in 50 yard increments out to 1000 yards. It is pretty easy to program the watch to do this. You just substitute range and elevation settings for phone numbers. For example, 950-3400 tells me that I need 34 minutes elevation for 950 yards. For the windage, I substitute the name that goes with the phone number for the 10 mph correction needed at each specific range. Besides, with it's INDIGLO light feature, it works just as well at night as it does in daylight.(but what a nice target I make then.) eh?
As to ballistic programs, in the field, I would tend to trust the data generated for uphill, downhill shooting more than I would with a rule of thumb formula for elevation correction. I can see no other advantage to having one in the field.
I think alot of people are quick to blame their ballistic programs when results in the field don't match what their programs tell them should be happening. Remember the saying, garbage in, garbage out.
If you have All the input variables entered correctly, you will get accurate info from them. The two that trip me up ocasionaly are, not knowing the exact B.C. that your bullet does in your rifle, and assuming that you know what the elevation increments are in your scope with out bothering to measure them first. Before I bought a chronograph, estimating muzzle velocity used to burn me as well.

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 18:22:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Orignal Steve...

Can you load a list of data... like come range up's and/or wind data, and page or scroll through it on the watch? It would beat a paper taped to the stock.


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 18:35:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Been hanging around this site for some time; finally saw a couple of posts I thought I might add to before they got too old.

Re: M-1 original caliber trivia (Ans.: .276 Pedersen) The answer is in "Hatcher's Notebook", available at and probably several other places. If you don't have a copy, shame on you.

Re: Bob J's post and Pablito's reply: Ballistic calculations take a good bit of computing power, where the Palm is kind of short; it should be possible, but would take some fairly involved programming, for a possibly very limited market. Also, Palm programming tools aren't nearly as available as those for other platforms.

Pablito's right on the proper use for programs; if you get one, sight in at 200 yards, and expect to make first-shot hits at eleventy-six hundred yards, you're going to be disappointed. If you use them to get some what-if figures, and then check those figures on the range, and THEN make some corrections to the figures based on the experience, you can make things a lot easier on yourself.
Chuck Kennedy <>
Crockett, TX, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 18:45:35 (ZULU) (your host address:

I recently purchased a Rem 700 Sendero 270 and wanted to know if anyone had any information on match ammo in 270. I have not been able to find any yet. If anyone reloads 270 with Sierra bullets I would be very interested in what you have accomplished.

Thanks in advance,

Bryan <>
CA, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 19:01:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

The watch displays ony one (phone number+windage setting) at a time. You just have to keep punching the button to get the range, er phone number that you want. If you overshoot, you have to scroll thru the list again. IF you use your trigger finger to do this it does not take too long. less than 10 seconds.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 19:09:42 (ZULU) (your host address:

OOOPS! Thanks for fixing.

Marius <>
RSA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 19:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Howdy folks,
Been awhile since I have posted but I've been around. Just have a quick question for any of the past and present duty slotted snipers out there (L.E. or Mil.) I am wondering do any you of recommend or use in the field slings such as the "Turner sling" I beleive the actual name is the 1903 style sling, I also think many Highpower Shooters use this type sling. Until recently I have been using a 6"to8" Harris bipod with great results in the prone postion but have very little trigger time at further ranges in other postions. And when I tried without the sling,in the sitting postion, it was a rather dismal display of .308 dia. holes in the attacking paper at 600 yards. Also does anyone know if schools such as Storm Mt. ect. permit students to use shooting slings? In the vain above apply all of the above questions on the use of a shooting glove in those various arenas.

Rick Boucher:You sent me a ton of info a year or so ago on mil-dots and how to use them. They have helped a lot and I shared them with the "Sharpshooter Team" were I used to work. I told you then that I was creating a ghille suit and would send you photos when it was finshed. Well,it finally is. I was out circulation because I was in Gleco Ga. at a academy for several months and am still in my rookie year at work so some hobbies have been neglected between work and the wife. If you want those photos give me a yell.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger Lee <>
Terre Haute, In, USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 22:42:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

For anyone that wants field portable ballistic calculations, I've programmed the standard Ingalls method into an HP-48G calculator. It will plot trajectory, drift, etc. Yes it was a LOT of work, about 10 pages of source code. Should anyone be interested email me. Uphill/downhill shooting was mentioned's a hot tip. The standard approximation is to multiply the cosine of the angle by the slant range to get effective range. A solution that is just as easy and much closer to analytic solution is to multiply cosine of angle by your comeups for the slant range. See what happens when an engineer gets bored? Hope somebody gets some use out of this.
brandX <>
USA - Friday, April 21, 2000 at 23:48:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
BrandX: Yeah, I'd be interested in the source code if it'll fit in my 41CV. Willit? Just please be careful, a friend of mine got run off this site for using the word "cosine" in a post a few times :-(
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 00:01:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
Stagger - Can understand the fun and time being spent by you in your rookie year. I remember my daughter's rookie year (She is vice now and I guess having fun? Couldn't do enough push ups for the Special Tactics Squad though). Sure, send the pictures, I'd be glad to see your Ghillie. Just remember not to put it in your wife's dryer or she will kill you and NO jury would convict. :) On the shooting glove, we use them all the time for even prone off the bipod. They are actually more stable then the shooting sock, which we ban in our school. This is due to larger group sizes when used by new shooters. The sling you refer to is also used and taken on every stalk by our students. However, the MRT is not necessarily so as the sling will mildew, twist, shrink in some spots while streaching in other spots, etc etc etc. I would spend the bucks on big Mike Miller's sling. This would permit rapid use of sling without having to "climb" into the dam thing everytime you want to use it. Just a snap of the buckel and you are there! Have used it in all positions and it works great. The army though has such an excess of the others that a new sling sends sudders up their spine!

Ballistic Programs - Great for getting you on paper, not necessarily the center of the paper though. Also great for what if'ing changes from your home range data to a new range data and getting "on paper". Hitting PDs at range using a computer, movietone time. Even the SS computer model won't do that. If the computer program only takes one BC for a bullet then it is very suspect as to acuracy as the BC changes with bullet speed. As Lito stated, some of the bullet manufacturers are fast and loose with their BCs. Sierra just changed theirs to a much more realistic number that more closely matches bullet performance. And I'll be damed if I'll lose cooler space to an ugly slab of plastic. SD or not!

Gooch - I never leave sling swivels attached to my weapon unless my sling is around my arm and in the shoot position. Too many carelessly carry their weapon with the sling and wonder why it banged against something hard enough to screw things up. Either carry it in your hands or bag it until you are in position. In either case the sling swivels are not needed in my humble opinion, which, like a**holes, everyone has at least one of. :)


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 01:24:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ballistics programs - If anybody is really interested in ballistics calculations in the field, see if you can locate one of the Hewlett Packard handheld computers. The HP100LX or the HP200LX both came with a version of Lotus 123 built in. There are several spreadsheet type ballistic calculator programs which will run in these things available. I have a couple myself, although as has been said, I really haven't found much use for them on the range. At best most programs can only reasonably predict what your comeups should be. Only shooting can validate that prediction.

Pat T
Pat T <>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 01:54:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

TO ANYONE: 'lito?, where is the post (forum) exact site for Gale McMillan's barrel info?, several people have posted and asked for same, but unless,temporary miofocular syndrome has caught up w/ me,(Along w/ my "SOMETIMERS DISEASE", I FOR ONE HAVE NOT SEEN THE ANSWER!!!.R.S.V.P..........PLS!,tshoes
tshoes <>
USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 02:08:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
Jeeze guys use the little arrows on the far right of your monitor and scan!

Here's the link to the barrel breakin comments.

gooch <>
USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 02:26:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick, great to see you. How are your classes going. Shame on your Daughter not making the pushups that used to keep alot of smalle guys and girls out. Truth is we need all types on SWAT. We call the two main differnt types of SWAT folks Fly Weights and Elephant Asses. These days I am beyound Elephant Ass so I just teach. I remember when I first got on SWAT. The LT paired me with another guy that spent even more time than I did back then pumping weights. Trouble was a standard door way was too narrow for us to go through at the same time. That didn't last long. Most departments dont use the pushup requirement anymore. They have an confidence(Torture) Course instead. If you want the course email me, but it is a bear of one. Last time I did it two years ago it nearly killed me making the time. I actually wished the two mile run was in its place.

Stagger, some schools teach sling shooting. I do. You never know when that will be your only shot. Many schools spend little time on slings because they beleive you will not take a slung shot. Now since I learned most of my field craft from killing fury creature for food, I learned that you dont always have time to make a neat little shooting position. You may have to drop and hit it. That is why I came up with my sling.

On Sling Swivels. I wish someone would come up with something better than what is out there.I have broken everything but the center button heavy target models, but they rattle like hell. I tape or use the elastic holders to keep everything quiet. I would think the best system out there is the new one from McMillan useing the center button swivels and embedding the recepticales in the stock.

Balistic Programs are as good as BDC's, close but no cigar!

Well I heard from El Sewing Machine Repair that I can pick up my machine Monday. Thats good I have slings to sew. Lets hope it works longer than after the fixed it last week.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 02:54:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

'lito/Gooch, you guys probably have the most xperience on the following topic, any others pls also join in/ sound off.
Which, (rather a newbie), so pls bear w/me, others probably would like to know also.
Which (Factory) round in .308 cal does the best accuracy wise at whatever ranges?. 1-12 twist rifles. Which do/would/have you used , and why?.Just straight up guy's, no liability involved, YOUR personal pref's..... Thanks in adv, Terry.
tshoes <>
USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 04:00:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
MikeM, Gooch, Pablito, whoever else,

Couple of questions on swivels and postion shooting. I'm thinking of sending my rifle back to McMillan and having a Freeland rail installed. Is it worth it? With the proper handstops/swivels attached it appeared much more user friendly in adjusting a more comfortable hand postion using the sling. Would swivels setup in the rail be stronger vs in the stock? Do any of you use the handstops for your sling attachment instead of just the swivel?

Mike, I would like to buy one of your slings and have the cuff sewn into a jacket, but I need the accessory pockets for all my gear. Do you know anyone that makes a quality shooting jacket that has, or could be set up with accessory pockets? Thanks, MG
MG <>
USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 09:58:39 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone fired or owned a Desert Eagle (.440 Corbon )? Any information on the pistol would be appreicated.
James Barko <>
Calumet City, IL., USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 11:52:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
Best factory round? Norma.

gooch <>
USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 13:16:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

MG and Acc. Rail

I recently fitted a Freelands (or non-Anschutz, in any event) rail to the forend on my 700PSS and so far I realy like this setup. The reason I did this was primarlily becasue I intend to shoot this gun in some NRA Long Range matches (my primary access to 600 and 1000 yard KD ranges) and I thought a handstop would be, well, handy. I ordered in a rail and handstop from Champion Shooters Supply for about $50 total, then locked the stock down in the vice on my milling machine. A few carefuly calculated passes with a 1/2" end mill and it dropped right in. I then drilled and tapped the aluminum channel that runs inside the forend with a 10-24 tap, countersunk the screws, used Brownells baking laquer to give it the proper tactical black finish and it was done. Then, I took then handstop and drilled and tapped it for an Uncle Mikes swivel stud in order to hook up one of Mike's Model One Military slings or it can still be used with an NRA-type cuff sling and intended. I also machined out some T-nuts to fit the rail and then drilled and tapped them to accept Uncle Mike's studs as well so I can use the rail with the Tactical Intervention sling, attach a Harris bipod, all of the things I could do with the original studs, only I can now place the studs anywhere along the rail I want. Realy, I am kinda' suprized that nobody markets these already. And, yes, in the case of my 700PSS it did make the forend a fair bit more rigid. I dont see it either hurting or helping a McMillan all that much, though.

And a quick note of thanks To Mike Miller, who took special pains in order to try and get my sling to me in time for a match. Furthermore, the sling is every bit as well thought out and executed, and useful, as everybody here said it would be. Good stuff.

And how about Miami this morning? I know figuring out who the good and bad guys in this case might be tricky, but the INS guys seemed to do a decent job of pulling it off, in any event. There is that unfortunate photo of the INS guy with the MP5 covering little Elian and the adult holding him. May or may not be within tactical doctrine but either way it dosent look too good on TV. Still, nobody got hurt.

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 13:31:10 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sling Swivels?
We dont need no stinking Sling swivels!

To Jim Mitchell,
Lets not confuse a shooting sling with a carry strap. The 98k mauser sling has to be about the worst design ever to try to shoot with.

I dont know how much help this will be for those newfangled rifles. but for the old guns, I find that only the Springfields, Enfields, M1As, and M1 garands have the swivels in the proper location to allow the use of a shooting sling period.
The 98 mausers, 96 Swedish mausers, M39 Mosin Nagants, etc. have the front swivel located too far forward for a proper shooting sling.
For these type of rifles with a handguard I found an easy fix. I made a strap out of that 2 inch wide black nylon or whatever it is that Mikes Undude tactical sling is made of and sewed a lot of velcro on it, and just use it instead the front swivel, You just wrap it around the stock and handguard of the rifle. The actual sling is made out of the same stuff with one end of the sling folded over and sewn shut to make a loop to attach to the velcro strap. Mine even has the quick detach coupling and it works on all of these old rifles without any alteration to the rifle at all. I am not in the business of making slings so just make your own or beg the Undude to do it for you.

Has anyone ever seen a Florida panther in the wild? Me neither! Any yet these big cats dont wear Ghille suits.
I just finished a good book called "Cry of the Panther" by Jim McMullen. This book was written in 1984 so you might find it in your public library. Mr McMullen is a Vietnam Vet and became obsessed with the Florida Panther to save it from extinction. He was so obsessed with these panthers, that he actually invented a step by step process to become a panther himself. In this book you will learn how to use all of your senses the way that a panther does. and includes step by step instructions on how to develop Panther Eye, Panther smell, Panther Foot, Swamp Eye, Yoga excercises, self hypnosis, and Blasting techniques for the nose. At the same time you will learn how he went about healing himself from Post Tramatic Stress syndrome. It was pretty interesting reading. I just thought I would mention it.

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 13:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well fellow long range shooters and wannabee's(like me), Rod has put the ad for the Sniper Rendezvous at SMTC up on the emporium list. It is now time for all those that have participated in the past matches to give up their tips, secrets, gear advice, etc. to those of us that are going to TRY ( if daughter's tuition doesn't break the bank again ) to go this year.

Come on guys, get off the poop! You will feel better for it.

A humble Bolt requesting advise and setting up special folder for it, OUT!

Bolt <>
USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 15:26:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

On the forend rail system: I use this system on most of my rifles. It has plus's and minus's. Plus is you can put sling to any position on the rail. Minus is the damm thing tends to move when you carry it for hours. My way around this is to put the rail in and install a single swivel stud through the stock in the bipod position,. The handstop can move but not past the fixed stud. I use the small knob handstop and target swivels instead of the less hefty QD's. I would have made your sling that way if I knew you had a rail in the forend. Now that McMillan offers fixed position Target Swivel Stud I will probably not use the rail for field work. I like the new system very much.

On Jackets: Take your BDU Shirt and sew a couple of belt type loops in the sleve. Slip the cuff through them and you have it. To carry items get a vest. I use a BlackHawk because I like the camelback feature plus they make about 1000 different versions. Get OD! It will take about 100.00 worth of paint to change a black one to camo.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 16:15:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

I would like to know more about this handgun. I am not familure with Glocks, and think I have found a deal. Can anyone give me more info about this type of weapon.

10 mm
20 series
fired approx. 400 rounds
pristine condition
2 before ban clips
cleaning kit
approx price $600.00

please send info to

Ed <>
Flag, AZ, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 17:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address:


Welcome to the site... I seem to recognize that "Twang" in your voice when you said "Cosine", Pilgrim... so if I know you from some shooting event... glad to have you here. ;)
We need people that can count to 10 with their hands in their pockets ;))... I crash at 6 or 7.

I'll vote with the Gooch... Norma, if you have to shoot factory (and can afford it)... and keep the brass... it's THE BEST there is!
Fed GM, has slipped in the past years, and for second choice, I'd go with Winchester Match.
My prefered load is 44gr of Varget, Sierra 175MK's, and military, or heavy civilian cases, and fed 215M primers.

I have a rail on a position stock, and I use it from time to time to shoot iron sights... but I don't shoot formal "High Power" matches.
The rail certainly won't hurt a dual purpose rifle.

When you milled out the bottom of the PSS stock... did you hit aluminum before you got deep enough for the rail, or were you still cutting in "kevlar".

Cosine, cosine, cosine! See... no problemo... Oh jeez, the monitor is going dim!


Pablito <>
USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 21:01:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

Buying a custom built rifle? Stay away from TBA, that is my opinion. His work ethic and attention to detail is not what it used to be. Certainly not near the same level that helped to build the TBA reputation some years ago.
I ordered a rifle last year and ultimately just received someone elses rifle he spray painted to match my request. Paint came off after two days of shooting. I had to re-seat my own scope. Not a skill beyond me, but for the money, I would have expected a much cleaner install. I paid a fair amount for a rifle to be built for me, in reality, I received a rifle that some other poor sap had been waiting for. Is the that reasonable or fair to either of us?
Maybe if I was getting a gun from Wal Mart.

For those of you looking into a rifle that will bring you joy and confidence, may I suggest:

It is a month after the shipping date and I still have not received my entire order. If he had really been planning ahead for my order, all that stuff would have been ordered weeks or months in advance of him starting to build my rifle.

If I thought he would step up to the plate and by my rifle back, I would send it back tomorrow.

Just my 2 cents, to clarify what many of you have suspected for some time.

Steve <>
CA, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 21:35:50 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am a big fan of the 270. Its one big problem is a lack of factory match loads. My best hand load is 53g of h4350 with a 135g sierra match king, winchester brass and winchester magnum primer. Its 2900 fps at the barrel and 1200fps at 1000 meters. The trick to get consistent 270 loads is to use a magnum primer.

Cayley J Carson <>
new castle, DE, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 22:48:05 (ZULU) (your host address:


When I milled the forend out, I ran into the aluminum a bit for the last 1-1.5 inches or so towards the tip. From about the position of the second factory swivel hole on back it was pure...Kevlar...plastic...whatever. Seemed pretty much like foam to me, but a better grade than found in Bell and Carlsons and the like. It milled beautifuly, though. The aluminum was extreemly thin in a couple of places, perhaps 1/16" or so, in others I had plenty to screw into. I used a total of seven screws. The aluminum ends about, I'd guess from memory, about 1.5 inches from the tip, BTW.

Tom Simspon <>
Columbia, SC, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 22:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address:


When I milled the forend out, I ran into the aluminum a bit for the last 1-1.5 inches or so towards the tip. From about the position of the second factory swivel hole on back it was pure...Kevlar...plastic...whatever. Seemed pretty much like foam to me, but a better grade than found in Bell and Carlsons and the like. It milled beautifuly, though. The aluminum was extreemly thin in a couple of places, perhaps 1/16" or so, in others I had plenty to screw into. I used a total of seven screws. The aluminum ends about, I'd guess from memory, about 1.5 inches from the tip, BTW.

Tom Simspon <>
Columbia, SC, USA - Saturday, April 22, 2000 at 22:56:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

MILLETT rings?

Does anybody have an opinion about millett rings? Does the angle-lock system work well, will they come back to zero? I am thinking about putting them on a colt H-bar flat-top, and I want to be capable of taking rings off to shoot w/iron sights.

Thank you, Mark Wall
mark wall <>
carbomdale, IL, USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 00:31:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Millet is to rings as Huffy is to bicycles.
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol(sorry).com>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 00:44:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mike - Told the little one that the upper body stuff was to get rid of Runts and c..... well you know. That made her day. She is first alternateso we will see what happens. I agree on the torture course as the best real evaluation, we use the "stress course". Probably the same thing for heart and shot. We teach sling and iron sights for the first week just to get the students mind in the right place. Black, did you mention the very un-natural color of black? When will that non color stop being the color of choice? Agree with you about trying to make that color something that is useable in a tactical situation. Interesting trivia, how many rmemeber the TV show SWAT? What color were their vehicles and equipment ACTUALLY painted for the movie?

MG - On the rail, think in terms of moving the bipod to the rear as well as the sling. Thus the rail can be used with the iron sight crowd as well as the tac crowd. When engaging moving or multiple targets, the bipod placed to the rear is a plus. This allows the barrel to be moved with minimum movement of the stock. This translates to a faster transition to target and a smoother swing on target. Remember whent he target is stationarty and far away, move the bipod to the end of the forestock for maximum stability, while for multiple targets or moving targets move the bipod to the trigger group for maximum ease of movement of the muzzle onto target. While the bipod rearward truely sucks on stationary targets it is worth it on those rapid transitions. Our students must engage a head size target at 200 meters in 3 seconds that can appear anywhere over a 7 meter front or a 3 sec, 24 inch chest shot over a 10 meter front at 400. The bipod attached to the front sling swivel is a toughy on those end to end transitions. In the short form yes get the rail. You can use it form multiple uses.

Bravo - been hanging around for some time, who was ran off for using cosin?

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 01:57:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

A question for those of you who are know German optics. I have just bought a Voll Vergutet rifle scope. It is 3x9 with a 56mm objective lense. It has the words Jagermiester, Vasserdicht and Shussfest written on it. Can any of you please tell me more about the company and just what the heck all of the Dutch means.

confederate <>
possumtown , Mississippi, USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 07:34:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Master Rick,

I'll throw the first CBS,

SWAT-TV dark blue van and BDU's. I liked the episodes on "Police Story" about tac teams better.

Hey Lito wasn't that you playing Bumper Morgan?????????

Ladies - Gentleman -

HAVE A SAFE AND HAPPY EASTER, and don't eat all the kids candy.

Holiday Chao!

peteR <>
pretty spring city, By-GaWd, USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 12:07:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hello everyone! Happy Easter!
Just looking for some opinions:
All the schools I've attended have advocated staying in position as long as you can after your shot is made. (Makes sense to me!)
A friend of mine showed me a video and after they made a shot they
picked up and ran you all know what video I'm referring to.

Also about reading wind I have been taught that the wind at mid range to the target are the conditions to watch.I know from experience that when shooting past 500yds those condition at mid range effect my rounds the most.I'm not talking about shooting 1/2 or less MOA I'm talking about getting solid center mass hits on standard iron maidens
out to 850yds. Especially where I shoot in the mountains where the winds vary so much.
There are many out there (benchrest shooters at my club) claim it is the wind closest to the muzzle. It is evident to me that they have not shot past 200yds.
Anyone out there that has used the AICS out in the field I would like to know how you like the stock in shooting positions other than benchrest or prone. thankyou for your time Hondo

Hondo <>
USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 12:21:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Re: Displace after shot,
Movement: one of the reasons things are seen.
Obviously the sit will have to dictate whether or not it is best to sit put or to run away to fight another day, but it is usually best to remain motionless so as not to draw attentino to yourself - this applies (so I'm told) in a LE sennario as well not so much as for the enemy but Media etc. who just love to pick up on "SNIPERS". Maybe I'm just an elitist snob but I cannot abide calling LE shooter snipers - I like sharpshooter (not trying to start a flame) anyway must go the 900m range is calling.

- Will reconfirm the AICS (not with mine - [Jerry EDM done?] but a friends) in other posn's today.

Kevin <>
Canada - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 14:13:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Happy Easter to all of you and all of yours
Bruce E <>
Texas, USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 15:33:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
Kevin, I tried to send you an email directly about my very positive interaction with Jerry, but it got bounced back as undeliverable. Feel free to send me an email and I will then reply.
Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 15:54:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the scope info...For those who might be thinking about a Schmidt & Bender PII scope...I just received an info packet from S&B USA...Here goes (better sit down):
3-12x50 (fixed parallax)...$1555.00
3-12x50 (side focus).......$1785.00
3-12x50 (lighted reticle)..$1905.00
4-16x50 (side focus).......$1870.00
The 34mm rings are made by either Badger Ordnance or Dave Talley (all available thru New England Custom Guns. Each click (or "Klik" as the turrets say) equals 1cm @ 100yds. The adjustment range is 200cm/72" at 100yds. They give a 20% discount to LE and Military on the scopes and rings. For everyone else had the best prices on the internet. Now that I've returned from the moon, let me see, a scope and rings or a complete PSS with scope, rings/bases, sling and bipod and money let for ammo and a decent school? Not a hard choice on my salary. MG
MG <>
USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 20:37:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

In regards to custom tactial rifles: It really depends on the person. I wanted durability first, then accuracy. I talked to and read everything I could get my hands on for a couple of years. I wanted to buy the best. I decided that the best rifle for me was the Chandler M-40A3. Everyone has their opinion, but this rifle does everything I hav ever asked it to. I recieved my rifle last August, at a local full service gun shop. One of the employees there was a Marine Corp Scout. He was almost as excited as I. I now have 485 rounds down that Hart barrel. Some of which is at a local 1000YD. prone match. I shoot it off a bi-pod and have been elated with our peformance. If the point of impact is out of the X ring, I missed a wind switch. The X ring is 10 inches. I shoot Blach Hills Match 175gr. Peformance at 100 yards is great. Best with this ammo is .334" 5 shot group. To improve this I will have to invest the time behind a loading press, as well as improve my bench technique. I bought this rifle to do everything, from a day at the 1000 yard line, to on the praire dog town, to the high country during deer season. If you have, or can get the money, buy the best. You only live once so buy the best, or cry like the rest.
J.P. Gregory <>
USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 20:48:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
Rick, I did not mean that the runts didn't have a place on the teams. They can go fast and be a small target. That is a huge adavantage in HRT. Hell I dont know one entry yet that I didn't wish I was 5'5" and 135lbs.

Black just plan suck but everyone wants it. I sell ten times as many black slings as the good old Army Brown. You wont find a black any thing on my rifles. Brown or OD and lots of paint. Jerry Rice just about cries everytime he makes me a rifle. A week latter it is ugly painted or wrapped in something equally bad looking. Every F'ng SWAT Team around has to have everything black and I just keep telling them its a great color for a B27 Target. Makes it easy to get a site picture.

Blackhills is great ammo.

It does not have to be a Chandler to be a great rifle. I will put Rice's or Gardner's weapons against anyones! Just get a good one and shoot it. More times than not its the person who cant shoot!

MIkeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, April 23, 2000 at 23:55:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

First order of business: God Bless all and hope ya had a happy Easter.

Hope for the future (not completely a tactical topic)

Picked up a cheap .177 caliber pellet rifle @ a gunshow yesterday. Took my daughter out, explained sight alignment, trigger squeeze, etc. Took her several shots - but she began to get the hang of this stuff - and like it :))

Now she wants to know when 'we' can go to Storm Mountain (wander how she heard about that)... Hopefully down the road - some of youn'z will see Her and myself up for one of the rifle courses.

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 00:34:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

please send me info on ann. maryland, im in rotc and want to go into the marines as a sniper, i already know i have to be between a e2 and a e6 thanks my email is please any one with this sorta info write me
rich <>
USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 00:47:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

It's getting really bad around here... Just got my custom rifle not too long ago...Problem is - even the Major (my wife) makes fun of the size of the barrel on this thing (26", straight taper, 1.5" at the muzzle). She calls it my .308 towed.... :)
I won't lie about it - it's pretty heavy - but it should be pretty durable. When I get the scope mounted - I will post a link to a picture or two...

Ken turns back to harrassment from his wife (still giggling while ironing her uniform for tomorrow) - but - dreams of the days to come when he gets to the range....

Ken :|

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 01:08:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

Pete - Unfortunately, due to the color recording at the time, the colors had to be a light powder blue. The reason was that the dark blue kept turning out black and that was a big no no.

Mike - I know that you weren't refering to the little guys when you were posting. The old standards, and I do mean OLD STANDARDS were there to keep out the little guys though. Then it was realized that bench pressing 500 pounds did not make a good entry man if he was too slow, or had the stamina of an old man like me. I was bouncing on my little girl. Cripes if she sees this post I'm dead meat. Never did understand the black thing. Nothing in nature is black and even at night black stands out as a darker shadow against the grey. Oh well, whatever sells. Guess the original idea of immediate identification is still one of the excuses used. Problem is that one was proved wrong in the seventies when I was working this non-sense back then.

Ken - Started my daughter on the air rifle and standing off hand. She became the captain of her small bore team at UNC-Wilmington and is now a vice cop. Go figure, especially since she majored in MATHMATICS! She's having fun and keeping me grey haired. Divide .308 into the barrel length and you can tell the Major how many calibers that sucker really is. That will make any cannon cocker green with envy.

Running or sitting - Depends upon the tactical situation and if the enemy has even the slightest idea where you are located. In most situations it is best to stay put. Most soldiers do not know that the rifle shot is a dull thump at range. The loud crack is the bullet and the sound is 90 degrees to the shock wave. This gives the wrong direction, so the hunt usually begins in that wrong direction. HOWEVER, if the enemy has arty and has your direction, you are in for a real bad time. If you are holed down you will be better in the hole, if you are on the ground from a hasty FFP then you had better hope on getting out of the area before the first round falls. It will definately increase your hearing loss if you are in the area when the first salso falls.

Reading wind - Agree with Hondo on the mid range. If the wind is read up close and is the most important, then a 5 mph wind would result in a constant moa shift regardless of range. However, as you know, this is not so. As the range increases the wind changes in moa value as is appropriate with the change in bullet velocity. Also you would not have to worry about that pesky cross wind down range that you may miss and causes the right impact in what you thought was a right to left wind. :) Ask our students, they hate our range due to the lovely crossing winds we get at times. Look at the wind through all areas with emphasis on the mid to target area. When the bullet hits max ord it has equal up forces to down forces and is, for all practical purposes, weightless at that time. Winds have a tendency to like that area to move a bullet. That is also the area that is above line of sight by a "few feet" when shooting long range. Helps to explain some of those odd impacts (also known as misses) at times.

Enough babbling for the night. Have fun guys and hold hard.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 02:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I want to become a Marine Corps Sniper, but I am having trouble finding out what to do. I have gone to the Corps website and am waiting for a reply. My dad who is in the Navy has helped me. I'm 12 days from turning 17, i feel time is running out, and would like to know what to do . I LOVE this website. when I'm hunting and hear gunfire in the background, I think "thats the sound of freedom". Then I think of this site. Please contact me asap. Thank you.

Randy Lovett

Randy Lovett <>
USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 02:10:27 (ZULU) (your host address:


Checkout the archives - that thread was run about 2 months ago.

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Aspire.Net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 02:22:32 (ZULU) (your host address:

All (pictures, etc).

What kind of interest do we have out there for a place to upload pictures of your particular rifle, ghillie suite, item, etc. that is pertainent to this forum? I know alot of youn'z out there don't have a place to make those pictures available...
Well, we could make some server space available for you to place your pic's - then you could post your note on the roster or wherever and just refer to the link to your pictures.

Contact me offline - via email if you're interested. This is made available upon request - and for material that is applicable.

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 02:27:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Norm Chandlers kid sent this to me.


A Soldier, a Sailor, an Airman, and a Marine got into an argument about which service was "the best". The arguing became so heated the four servicemen failed to see an oncoming truck. They were run over by the truck and killed instantly.

Soon the four servicemen found themselves at the Pearly Gates of Heaven. There, they met Saint Peter and decided that only he could be the ultimate source of truth and honesty. So, the four servicemen asked him, "Saint Peter, which branch of the United States Armed Forces is the best?"

Saint Peter replied, "I can't answer that. However, I will ask God what He thinks the next time I see Him. Meanwhile, thank you for your service on Earth and welcome to Heaven."

Some time later the four servicemen see Saint Peter and remind him of the question they had asked when first entering Heaven. The four servicemen asked Saint Peter if he was able to find the answer. Suddenly, a sparkling white dove lands on Saint Peter's shoulder. In the dove's beak is a note glistening with gold dust. Saint Peter says to the four Servicemen, "Your answer from the Boss. Let's see what He says." Saint Peter opens the note, trumpets blare, gold dust drifts into the air, harps play crescendos, and Saint Peter begins to read the note aloud to the four Servicemen:


TO: Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines


1. Gentlemen, all branches of the United States Armed Forces are honorable and noble. Each serves America well and with distinction. Being a serviceman in the United States Military represents a special calling warranting special respect, tribute and dedication.

2. Be proud of that.

Gooch <>
USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 02:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address:


I just wanted to say thanks to all who responded to my question about the Sweets Copper Solvent. Great info guys! Now for a more narrowed question. A few of my friends and I are planning to shoot next weekend at the Sacramento Valley Shooting Center. Saturday to be exact. Can anyone tell me if there will be any matches that would prevent us from using the range? How much does it cost to get in?
Last question...Does anyone know of a good place to shoot in the Sacramento/Sierra area that is not a bonafied range but is open to the public? Say 300m+ distance?

Many thanks in advance...

Semper Fi my brothers.

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 05:21:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

Master Rick,
Thanks, cain't keep them copshows straight and didn't have color teevee at home until LATE 70's. So I still have a kinda monochromatic outlook on the era.....

Congrads on the daughter/air rifle combo, mines got a couple years yet till shes big enough to hold one of my AG's up, but shes already hell on wheels with "folding fans".
Does the .308-Towed come with the optional muzzle cover as seen at S/M last October?????? Way cool idea, wish I got a pix of it then :-(

ofta paint a bit
paint bucket city, By-GaWd, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 11:55:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick B.
Welcome back, long time no hear!! Have they been keeping you busy?? Whats this with a daughter old enough to be a cop?? Must make you a proud (But worried) papa.

I must disagree, "Oh learned one", I have found the new Federal Match much better than the old stuff of a few years ago. The older Federal Match was so inconsistant I wouldn't even steal the brass!! The new Match is very consistant and shoots great!! I got some from the State Patrol and every piece weighed with in about 1 grain for all 500 rounds. I checked the run out on the bullets and it was "0" for the batch that I tested and like I said, in one of my earlier posts to you, that I had a hard time duplicating the accuracy of the Federal match load in my new 308.

Jeff A,
Just recieved my new Norma brass for the 6.5x284 today so I hopefully will get a chance to get out this week to try it out. I tried the 4831SC and it shot the best so far .3s to .5 but is a tad hot so I need to back it down and see if it still holds the accuracy. I am really wanting to do some long range work with it. I laid out a 1300yd range yesterday at my friends place just 10 min. from my door, hard to beat living in SD and you get a lot of chance to practice your wind reading too(HA).
Pat <>
USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 13:36:56 (ZULU) (your host address:


Anybody got a good place online to purchase (and even more importantly at the moment, price) Nightforce scopes? Also, any general commentary on Nightforce products would be appreciated. Always been a Leupold guy but I am willing to try anything once. :)


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 14:04:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thoughts on black vs. camo debate
Since I am a civilian with no prior military or police experience take this for what it is worth. Black works great for intimidation. A hulking figure in black exudes power and control over a stiuation. However, if I was doing entries I would be wearing camo if I had my choice. It is much harder to shoot someone wearing a camo pattern than a nice crisp silhouette in black. The biggest problem with camo is most people associate it with military and when police is thought of as military then it changes the mindset of the population. People start feeling like subjects for lack of a better word.

The Shooter <>
God bless TX, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 14:49:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Grip Mods on Rifle Stocks:

Oh, and another question. The grip area on my PSS stock realy dosent fit my hand all that well: the palm swell and all that is fine but I dont like the way the fingers wrap around the front. I think it could use some additional contouring to give my fingers some place positive to rest. I remember seeing some old target pistols that had grip made using someting akin to plastic wood, but a rather ugly shade of green. Blob it on, grip the gun to make an impression perfectly matching your hand and let it set. Cool. Does anybody have any recomendations for a material that would be suitable for this use and a sourse for it?


Tom Simpson <>
colatown, SC, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 15:26:12 (ZULU) (your host address:


I haven't shot any Fed since a year or so ago... bought a bunch of their "Premium: match brass, and the gun went sour... weighed the brass, and it ran from 156 to 174 grains, and velocity spreads were 120 to 140 fps in a 5 shot group (yeah yeah... I knowI can't load fer skit, but...) .
I sent Fed a not so humorious e-mail (aka "Master Brass Pro ;), and they've been trying to get the brass back for a year... got another e-mail from them the first week of March, wanting it back (to see what the problem is)... I told them what the problem is... it's crappy brass!!

And as to your .308 not shooting well... it's probably that bum trigger job you got from that womanizing, dog (and Cat) shooting riffraff ;)

I have yet to touch a gun in the last 3 months... so many wolves, so few ankles ;((

Pablito <>
USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 18:30:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

If you fine tune the better half as well as you do triggers I can see why your "Busy", you dog(HA). A year or so ago I would have agreed with you 100% but as I said this new stuff really shoots. Even my old 308 that didn't shoot it hardly under and inch 2 years ago now is shooting the new stuff into .3s. A word to the wise from and old road warrior, "STICK TO GUNS, THERE CHEAPER AND MORE DEPENDABLE"!!!(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 19:11:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to stop the burlap on my guillie suit from unraveling the rest of the way and fallining off entirely? I would appreciate any help you could give me.
Jon English <>
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 19:23:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
Williams' Trigger Specialties
111 East South Street
Atwood, Illinois 61913

Phone: (217) 578-3026

Here is the contact for williams trigger Specialties.
They do HK91 Set triggers, I got one done, they used we trigger group and got it down to 2.25Lb. set and 4.25 Lb. off set. I love mine works great and real help my group size over the stock trigger. I can now at 100 yard pull off 3/4" overall group sizes with a 20rnd. clip.
The price of the trigger was $160.00.

Hope this helps

Ernest W. McMillan III (Silicon_Wizzard)
Ernest McMillan III <>
Staunton, VA, USA - Monday, April 24, 2000 at 20:34:44 (ZULU) (your host address:


Sacramento Valley Shooting Center is hosting the "No Bull III" match on Saturday on the HP Rifle Silhouette Range. You might want to take a look if you get to the range, very small targets at 500M. About as tough a no-physical-conditioning-required-match as you are likely to see.

The 300 yard public range is open Friday through Tuesday, about $10 for non-members.

Good Shooting,
Dee T <>
Roseville, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 00:01:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have just taken a large interest in becoming a Sniper in the US Armed Services. Already started into the ARmy, I am not sure if there is a specific way (such as MOS) to become a Sniper there. I know the the Marines have a specific MOS for their snipers, but does anyone know a fairly easy way to get into the Army's sniper programs? I would appreciate any help here! Thanks.
Daniel Dunn <>
USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 00:13:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey guys, I thought I would let you in on something. I've had a really great rifle case now for about a month, and since I don't say as much good as I should, here's something for the records. Brack Wilson makes a FINE rifle case! The Starlight cases are top notch! I was looking at either it or the Pelican, but decided to take 'ol Sarge's advice and get the Starlight - great review Sarge, but please forgive me if I leave the case INSIDE the truck ;-) . WISE choice.
Was Brack easy to get ahold of and answered all my questions? Quite.
Was everything as advertised? Nope. Better than advertised.
To be blunt, this is one HEAVY DUTY case! A perfect "in transit home" for my M-25, worthy of the best of rifles. Or even AR-10's (HA!).
Anyway, I just thought I would throw my two cents in behind something that's a superior product, and no, I'm not getting paid for this.
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 00:54:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
And *another* question...

Doen anybody out there know where I can get some tactical-grade Weaver /Picatinny rings for a 8x56mm scope with a 25mm tube diameter? I have one of the older IOR 8x56mm hunting scopes and, after playing with the Badgers, Redfields just dont get it anymore. :)



Tom Simpson <>
Colatown , SC, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 00:55:29 (ZULU) (your host address:


Make that 26mm. :)

Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 01:03:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

Daniel - The army does not have an MOS for snipers. It has a skill specialty code that is attached to your regular MOS. Fort Benning has a course and usually you must be in the Infantry to go to that course. However some Engineers, Explosive Ordinance Personnel and Military Police also go to the course. The Military Police also run their own school for their "SWAT Team" training. There are also a number of other courses within the Reserve and National Guard system. However you must be in a unit that is authorized snipers to become slotted as a sniper. It is not something that you become and then get assigned to a unit. Also you could be a sniper in one unit and then go to another unit and not be assigned as a sniper. You state that you have already started the process of going into the army, what MOS ar eyou going into and what type of work are you talking about doing? Going into certain MOSs will enhance your chances of going into the sniper field while other MOSs will not even allow the thought of going.

Evaluate why you want to be a sniper and think really hard about having to urinate in your pants because you can't get up and move about freely. Think about the isolation of you and your partner as the only ones in the area that are friend and all others wish to do you in. This is not the glamous job shown on television. I've been doing this job since 1968 and now teach the job. There are times in which you are bored to tears or scared shitless. You must function in both conditions and everything in between. To get there you must be able to practice even when you are tired of practice. I don't just mean shooting, I mean crawling at a rate of inches per. Observing an area until your eyeballs fall out, being eaten alive by bugs while you sit in a position fully camouflaged waiting to see if you have been spotted yet, while writing down OR memorizing everything that goes on around you and your assigned target area. And after several days of this you may be told to pick up and haul ass. Think long and hard abut your chosen craft before you commit to it. It can be a real ball buster at times. While ther personal satisfaction can be great for some, it is too musch dedication for the majority of others. Know in your heart what you really want. Never look to the fun side for your decision, look to the crap in your pants side. The calculated taking of a life side.

Enough on this, too old to be a deep thinker, where is the beer! Gooch, need a Guiness!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 02:10:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Rick, yes the jb sucks, but sick me likes it. I like no one knowing I am here, or there. Well other than you and Gooch.LOL Thank God the cranksters are not as good as you guys.

That No Bull Match sounds good I may try and make it. Sat?

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 03:15:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Roger that SB Rick.

Dudes and undudes. I am looking for any data on the Navy .300 win mag round for inclusion in the next generation TRGT databook.

Any help would be greatly appriciated.


Gooch <>
USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 04:41:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

I've been lurking for almost a year, this is my first post. I finally got my stock back from HS Precision - I had the adjustable cheek-piece added to the PSS stock (nice job). Ready to assemble Remington 700PSS, Jewel trigger, Leupold LR Tactical 3.5X10 M3 w mildot, Leupold MarkIV bases and rings, Harris bipod, and Butler Creek flip open scope covers. Had the Jewel trigger installed and go to mount my scope and learned a few valuable lessons I thought I'd share for others like myself: Lesson number 1, check to make sure that your brand new inch/pound torque wrench is good. Lesson number 2, remove the bolt from the receiver and make sure the screws provided with the Leupold MarkIV bases aren't too long. Shortly before doing the Yosemite Sam Dance kicking and cussing throgh the house, it becomes apparent that my torque wrench set to 45 inch/pounds fails to click at appropriate torque setting. The result is that not only do I have to make a trip to the gunsmith to get the remaining part of the screw removed from the receiver, I also probably have a nice dimple on the bolt and a much more difficult drill out. Later testing proved the brand new quality inch/pound torque wrench set at 45 inch/pounds did not break on a bolt with a known value of 80 foot/pounds. Oh well, you save your money, you bide your time, you dream at night, salivate as the UPS man delivers goodies, the time of reckoning comes and Mr. Murphy rears his ugly head, such is life.
Ryan <>
Sterling, VA, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 11:53:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Schimdt&Bender prices in USA.

Someone is ripping you off. MG put these us prices on the rooster:

3-12x50 (fixed parallax)...$1555.00
3-12x50 (side focus).......$1785.00
3-12x50 (lighted reticle)..$1905.00
4-16x50 (side focus).......$1870.00

Here are som prices in Norway:

$1US = NOK 8,64

6x42 NOK4690.00
1.5-6x42 NOK5990.00
3-12x50 (f.p.) NOK7490.00
4-16x50 (f.p.) NOK9900.00

These prices are included 23% local salestax. You can figure out the exportprice yourself.

This is the link:
(It's a rather complicated site in Norwegian. start with "jakt")

If you buy a couple of scopes you can have a "free" holiday in Europe... The cheapest return ticket I've seen is about $500...

I'm a bit "offline" at the moment. I lost a close friend and huntingbuddy this week. He was only 45 years old.


TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 12:41:55 (ZULU) (your host address:


I am wondering what would be a good 1000+ Yard. "Turn you lights out Rifle" for a LEFT HANDER. With---1) A good Drop'em Caliber
2) Twist??
3) Barrel type, length
4) Optics

Any Suggestions??

Eric <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 13:31:47 (ZULU) (your host address:

Im mounting a scope with a 44mm Obj. on a Savage tacticle 223. Mounts and rings are hard to come by in this sleepy little town any one got suggetions on proper mounts and rings to order. Looking at burris rings and probably leupold mounts.
Also how tight should the mounts be put on.
Is this something that a newbie like me should pay someone to do
Im not sure I trust the bozos at the local gun shop any more than I do myself.He said he would charge aroung $15.00 just to mount it.Said it wouldnt take but a few seconds, if thats the case Im sure I could do it myself just dont want to screw something up that Ive saved for a long time.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
ad <>
Al, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 13:38:08 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks for the tips and articials over past and present shooting issues. I am a beginner shooter and count on tips and hints that give me the presicion to make shots at long distances. I shoot a week Marlin 30-30. I have impressed alot of people who said that a 30-30 will not shoot accurately up to 300 yds. I just got into coyote hunting and my first kill was 310yds. For someone who doesnt have the money to buy exspensive hardware I make due with what I have.

Ryan London <>
USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 15:42:26 (ZULU) (your host address:

USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 16:38:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
Looking to put a red-dot sight on a Ruger Mini-30 (I know, I know it's not an ideal weapon!)and need a good web source for a good mounting system. Also, would like to replace the factory iron sights, which are so bad they border on the unbelievable.

I know this isn't the most appropriate forum for Mini-30 questions, but I thought I'd give it a shot. I carry this carbine on duty, and am trying to get it squared away--I choose to carry it because it fits inside my vehicle and is one of the very few weapons that meets the maximum allowable value cost restriction imposed by my Dept. (In the event it's stolen from the vehicle, I guess, and I were to file a claim?).

Thanks much,
Mark <>
ca, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 16:58:24 (ZULU) (your host address:



I am wondering what would be a good 1000+ Yard. "Turn you lights out Rifle" for a LEFT HANDER. With
1) A good Drop'em Caliber
2) Twist??
3) Barrel type, length
4) Optics

Any Suggestions??

Yup... for 1000+... get a 50 BMG, with a custom left hand action, 45"+ barrel, 12" twist, 16x Mk4-M1 with custom ranging reticle... and a hell of a lot of practice. That might do it...
If the "Drop'em" power is a little on the light side... go to a 20mm Lahti, and a 60" barrel... works real good on Plymouth "Horizons" and Ford "Pinto's"... if this still doesn't have enuff "Drop'em" power, the next step up get's a little drastic!


Pablito <>
Fro the world of "reach out and touch someone"!, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 18:17:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

You took the words right out of my mouth(HA).

Sorry to hear about the passing of your friend, those are always hard esp when their young. I am sure you will keep him alive in your thoughts and memories.
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 19:00:19 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito, great post even if doubled. I am personally looking for a rifle that carries itself with an upgraded option to adjust for everything and shoot on voice command. Of course in a good knock em out caliber, as you suggested. Or maybe something that is measured by the inch size of the muzzle?

On another note, after seeing Mike Sheehans Leupold 25X Spotter I went out and bought one. Very nice little scope!

Mike Miller <>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 20:20:00 (ZULU) (your host address:

My personal preference over the 20mm Lahti, is the 40mm Bofors (1.6", if you like inches), but a lot of guys are going with the US 30mm (1.2") cuz the ammo's cheaper, and lighter, if you have to carry a lot into the bush, and your spotter's loaded down with the "Cooler"... ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 20:40:34 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito, who do you think you are kidding?
Everyone who is anyone knows that 30mm is the caliber of choice for a shoulder fired weapon.
You can keep your 50 cal bb guns to yourself, just dont shoot your eye out! :)
Jeff <>
San Jo, Ca, USA - Tuesday, April 25, 2000 at 20:45:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
Eric: Don't let 'Lito and Mike give you incorrect ideas. They're trying to "legitimize" their opinion, at the expense of the general public. I haven't substantiated this, but I've heard that both of them were formally disqualified from a stalk, and asked not to return to the premises, after the management's groundskeeper complained of "replacing their rather large divots"! The Lahti might have a place, but not on a stalk. I was told they weren't detected sneaking into their FFP, until the shot off the 6" bipod made a small dustdevel that damaged the vision of two of the observers. As I understand it, three newly "hearing impaired" shooters are joining the management in a law suit.

BTW, Remember when people like Bob Glidden raced the pinto with a "hot rodded" 460 cobra jet under the hood? Blow minivans if you want, but nothing with potential (I wouldn't race a pinto though......)

Here I sit trying to make "empty bottles" to "reload". Oh, how artists suffer for their art!
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 02:33:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Scope rings?

I have a flat top colt sporter, how high (from base to center of ring) do my scope rings need to be, in order to clear the front sight?

Thanks, Mark
mark wall <>
carbondal, IL, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 05:51:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

I would like to know what brand of scope mount the military used or uses on the M21 sniper rifle. Is this mount still used today or can it still be bought?

Bruce Emens <>
Henderson, NV, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 07:32:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

I would like to know what brand of scope mount the military used or uses on the M21 sniper rifle. Is this mount still used today or can it still be bought?

Bruce Emens <>
Henderson, NV, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 07:36:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo! I was reading along on your last post there and read this line,
"I haven't substantiated this, but I've heard that both of them were formally disqualified from a stalk, and asked not to return to the premises, after the management's groundskeeper complained of"

Now I may have been reading this site for a spell too long but I instantly thought of LOVELY SHEEPIES! BAHHHH BAHHHHH I don't even want to think what left those "divots" I thought all sheep dippers wore knee pads?

I've had a buddy or two get booted for being too affectionate towards a "groundkeepers most affectionate prize winning Ewe."

If you go with a 3-9 power scope chances are that over 4 power the scope is going to see right through that front sight because the front sight isn't in the focal plane of the scope. On a flat top AR15 with a front sight I still mount as low as possible. If you have the scope already try holding it up there in about the spot you'd like it to be and see if it is affected by the front sight on it's lowest setting. For cheaper variable power scopes I leave them on one power setting after zeroing since mickying with the power ring usually changes the point of impact(real cheap scopes here folks!) I usually run about 6 power even on my 22lr. and on my AR15 I've got a 6-24. I normally run around 12 power for shooting squirrels on my AR15 and leave the higher magnification for bench shooting on other guns. If you want click on my name to run off to a web page with my ARs on it. If you are just starting to play around with AR15s and are in a learning curve still try out the forums on, the AR15 forums are topical and have a section devoted to optics, rifles, uppers, manufactures. It's a pretty decent site aside from some of the stupidity that goes on there. Stay away from the General Discussion forum till you get an idea of the type of morons that hang around in there.

I can tell I'm gonna take heat for having such high power glass on an AR15 but I really like to watch those squirrels pop at 300 yards guys! Mirage does suck though!
B. Douglas <>
CowpattyTown(where returning from a trip the "smell of poo" reminds you that you're home!), Ca, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 07:42:45 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone ever used the L.O.D. McMillan stocks? Opinions? They would seem to make a decent prone stock, but what about position shooting? Any comments would be helpful....MG
MG <>
USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 08:19:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
Bruce E...

The Israeli military is the biggest current user of the M21, and their choice of mount is the "A.R.M.S. #18" platform, which will take all sorts of scope thingies, including night vision stuff.
They're available from MWG at...

(MWG also has a new web address, but this one will get you there)

The US generally uses the Brookfield as first choice, but Brookfield keeps going in and out of business every other month. I don't know if they're in business this month, I've lost the schedule ;).

The US also use the A.R.M.S. #18 mount as second choice... not for mechanical reasons, but Dick Swan (Mr. ARMS) sued the US for non-payment, and now the military is having a hissy.

Not to many folks have heard of A.R.M.S., but virtually every accessory rail, scope spacer, rail adaptor, and other sighting gadget or doo-hicky for the AR-15/M16 family of guns, is made by A.R.M.S, or made under their licence... he holds all the patents, and/or copyrights... Dick Swan is a very smart puppy.

Enterprise is a company that fronts for GG&G machine tools, and they sell a knock-off of the Brookfield, and used to sell a knock-off of the A.R.M.S. #18... you can find their ads in the SGN. These knock-offs have some changes to avoid patient infringment problems... as GG&G was tied up in court for years, and now has "Cease and Desist" orders prohibiting them from making, or selling, A.R.M.S. knock-offs

Brownells sells the Enterprise "Brookfield" copy... go here:
Their web site is hard to get around, but keep at it, and you will find it.

Some of the better shooting supply companies, like Bruno's (look in Presision Shooting Magazine) have the "real" Brookfield from time to time.

There are several M21 shooters on this site, of which I'm one...
My preference is the A.R.M.S. #18... with the Brookfield as second, some of the other guys like the Brookfield first... they are both excellent mounts.


Pablito <>
USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 10:17:55 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bravo, all of that was supposed to be confidential. Truth is they were pissed because the wheels tore up the lawn, but I ask you have you ever tried to move a 105 without wheels. The thing about the deaf and also blind observers, well how was I going to know that we had to stalk within 200 yards of them? We did use blanks and the trees will grow back with time. The only action they have taken is to tell us not to use anything bigger than a 338 Lapua next time. Thats fine it was a bear camo'ng the 105.

Seriously I have to agree with Pablito on which M21 mounts are best. Either the Brookfield or ARM's with the Springfield being a never ran. I have never used the Smith version but it looks like a copy of the Brookfield.

I have been shooting the Black Hills Ammo and I am having very good results. I may be changing from Federal.

LOD Stock. That thing is huge and heavy. Probably why they went out of business. If you want one and dont mind the looks, feel or straining yourself, it is well made. McMillan made them for LOD, based on the LOD Specs. Probably a better Police than field stock.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 15:33:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

This is a off topic post. I would like to move to Idaho because I'm
tired of C.A. for Political reasons yes I own bad black guns that go
bang every time I pull the trigger then it loads it self again.Also
there is no way that I can buy a house in the bay area in my life time
.If there is any one on the DutyRoster that lives in the state of Idaho I would like to here from you.I would like to move to the Boise
area I understand the cost of living is a lot less than the bay area in C.A. where I live at.Also If you can tell me about any rifle ranges
in Idaho please.

Scott Hannah or
Scott Hannah < or>
Los Gatos, C.A., USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 16:06:30 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ah, a question I can actually get into. The M-21 stuff. Unfortunately, both Patron 'Lito and Mike already answered it quite nicely enough. The only thing I have to add is that the "spec" rings for use with the ARMS #18 is the ARMS #22 QD set (per Dick Swan). Mine was a BUGGER to lap though, took forever. Good hard steel. If I were keeping a scope on it permanently, I'd use something else though, like the badgers, even though I was told that the #22's were used on everything including 20mm chainguns with no problems.

'Lito: the Brookfield 2000 schedule is now out. Under each month is the statement "to be announced".

Mike: Nope, haven't tried dragging a 105, but got too close to a 75 once, now have to say "hun?" too much :-( You gonna talk about the "weekend" class after the week that I'm in for? Good ad space available!

Now where did I put that bottle opener?
Bravo <>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 17:02:03 (ZULU) (your host address:

I thought my PSS was heavy. You guys are hard core!

I am looking at buying a Sako TRG-S in 338 Lapua. I know it is more of a hunting rifle than tactical, but I will have it customized at a later date. What scope mounting systems are available for this action? I have a Badger mount on my PSS and I would like something similar for the Sako action. Also, does anybody have experience with the 338 Lapua? I would love to hear experiences, both good and bad.

The Shooter <>
God bless TX, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 20:03:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Highpower/DCM question: I currently own a Bushmaster 16" carbine. If I wanted to get into Highpower (which I do) would I better off to just get a Bushmaster or Armalite DCM upper, or trade it in and save up for an M1A "loaded" deal? The main factors are cost and legal issues (having and "evil" AR in Kalifornya or Maryland for example) and the "loaded" M1A's seem to be a steal. I know there's a lot of opinions on AR vs. M1 but any input would be greatly appreciated. I've gotten a lot of useful information from many of you before on barrel break-in (only to be thwarted by the McMillan post). Once again, please help me!
Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, "the state of smart guns in 2003" MD, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 20:06:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

There seems to be some misconceptions when I stated the fact that I wanted a "Turn you lights out" Rifle with A "drop'em" Caliber. Yet then again maybe not since it got its point across very well. I did make a typo as far as the mention of 1000+yards I meant 1000+ meters
But now thanks to Keith an his very informative E-mail I may just stick to 1000+ Yards. PS. I never shoot at Cars especialy my favorite the Pinto.
Eric <>
SOSCOM, Ft. Bragg, USA - Wednesday, April 26, 2000 at 20:54:17 (ZULU) (your host address:

First off, I would like to commend Sniper Country on an outstanding website. It is very informative and appreciated.

I have been shooting for many years in the North Eastern US. My problem is this: I can not find anywhere to practice long range shots. I have tromped around the woods and fields of New England all of my life and never come across a suitable place to shoot 500+. Does anyone know of any places that will give me that opportunity? If those places do exist in NH, VT, or Maine I will be damned for my inability to find them. I would appreciate any help you might be able to offer. Thank you in Advance.

-Hawk Out

Hawk <>
NH, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 00:32:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

Eric, et al.

some thoughts, if i might, on the
kg <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 02:21:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

Eric, et al.

some thoughts, if i might, on the "mile shot".

a lot can be, and has been said, about the capabilities of large caliber artillery burning a huge charge, pushing a massive bullet. but i ask: seriously, what do you do with all that recoil? how do you NOT flinch on that trigger? i, myself, belong to the "half a grain in the right place" school. combine that with the Zen Buddhist discipline of trigger squeeze and the Dr. Kervorkian breathing method- i see no finer piece of super long range anti-personnel artillery than the Daisy 1938 Red Ryder lever action repeater. put in a Jewel trigger and a custom Schillen smooth-bore, use a U.S. Kobe i-beam as a bipod and weld the barrel of a Meade 128mm telescope to it and you've got yourself a sniper's dream. 'been customizing mine for years now.

nowlook, i probably shouldn't be saying this, but i trust you gentlemen to not be too loose lipped with this..
Nakotchtzka the russian monkey has a range on the moon all ready for us. he's just waiting for nASA and Hertz to get off it's collective arse with the shuttle service.
Seriously though- I'm first on the list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


my club's only got 100 yards, and my 200 yarder is, to the detriment of the nerves of both my Grandmother and her dog, out behind my Grandfather's barn (my bench rest is the shingled crest of the dog's house). i'd love to try a 1000 yard shot. if someone in the OH-PA-WV-KY-IN-MI area's got the backstop and line of dirt i'll buy breakfast...i may even be able to scratch up a Pinto.
kg <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 02:22:14 (ZULU) (your host address:

I spent 3 years in Spokane and did a bit of shooting in Washington and northern Idaho. Idaho was an eye opener. The first event I attended was a "pin" shoot. Ny jaw hit the ground when a guy whipped out a full-auto Tommy gun and emptied a 50 round drum in a heartbeat. Guys were shooting suppressed .300 Whisper's, 10/22's etc. I thought id seen everything, I was wrong.

The next event I went to was a rifle shoot for 300yds+. Targets- Coca Cola cans.... with gasoline and dynamite. Definitely cool! I moved here for a much better life/career. I'm in the Bay Area now.
Steve <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 04:58:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

There has been much discussion recently about various stocks and their designs. The three stocks designs which I favor are 1. The AICS from Accuracy International. Its heavy and pricy, but what a confortable stock to use and shoot especially from the prone position. I'll gladly pay the extra $150 bucks to get this stock almost any other stock design. As in most things, you get what you pay for!! 2. The HS Precision fully adjustable stock is also a pleasure to use especially if there is more than one shooter using the rifle. The ease of adjustment and straight up and down pistol grip design is also very comfortable to hold with just the right amount of palm swell. 3. Would have to be the McMillian A-3, with the adjustable LOP and cheek piece. This is also a very comfortable stock design and seems to be alittle lighter than the A-2 which is larger at the forenend than the the A-3. I havent ordered a MacMillan in quite some time, because of the turn over time. Does it still take forever and a day to get one of their stock? Just wondering!!

Both the AICS and the Mac A-3 also have the front rail on them and can use any type of bipod which you have from Harris, Parker, or Versa-Pod.

As far as the little Cuban boy and his plight! Im sure most of you guys have seen the photo of the INS agent doing his job and getting the kid away from his crazy relatives. Just a couple of questions about that. If the house was only a 2 bedroom cracker box, why did they have about 30 people living in there? Shouldn't Miami's Human Services have seen this and said that conditions were unsafe and just take the kid away? And is this fisherman and what was he doing with that kid in the closet??

And more in relation to our plight of keeps our GUNS. ALthough I thoroughly agree with the rescuing of that kid (and I very, very rarely agree with anything that Clinton or his henchmen say or do),, I just hope that photograph will not be portent of things to come when the feds decide that our hunting and shooting pleasures have become dangerous to the state and decide to take our guns away. WIll we also be greeted by MP-5 toting federal agents, demanding our guns and stripping away the last few rights which we still possess? Just food for thought? Look hard and long at that photograph and hope it never happens on that level. (OK who wants the soap box now?)

al O
AL Ostapowicz <>
Restin' Easy in , Ohio, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 06:16:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Al O Dude...

I'll take the soap box... I'm a divorced single father of a 8 year old son... and I was his mom and dad since he was 6 months old.
What it takes to be called "Father" would take three pages (I'll save all of you, from that dissertation :)... and that ass didn't even meet requirment #1... you gotta BE THERE!!!

You don't get to be a "Daddy" by knockin' up your "Ex" on a one-nighter, and then leaving town with your new hunny.

But on the gun issue... you don't like that picture?? Well get used to it.
At Waco, they could have taken Korish (sp?) any time... he jogged all the time, and went to town by himself a couple of times a week... so they used a cast of thousands to take him out.

At Ruby Ridge, the local LE could have walked up to him in the general store and said, "Why don't you come over to the office, so we can clear this thing up"...

Hell, there's no fun there... a cast of hundreds to take him (and take his wife out)... I mean, if you're the ATF... what's the point of having all that cool "assault" stuff, if you can't get out and use it once in a while?

You don't like the pictures... well get used to them. It's acceptance of this kind of "assault", by the public (you), that makes it easier and easier the next time.

We don't use that much force against crack houses, or Aphetamine labs... but it's now OK to do it against a family's house in a custody issue??? Gimme' a break!

Why do you think the Klintonistas want gun control??? So they have the ultimate power over society... and as long as you think these acts are justified, they will happen more often, and for smaller issues.

There were 30 people living in that house??? Gimme' another break!

Soapbox done...


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 10:26:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK guys what's all this talk about Lahti - isn't that a yuppie coffee or something? I thought Bofors was the sound Batman makes when he hits the bad guys! But seriously does anyone know where I can get a 6 barrel bore brush for my Vulcan - and I don't mean Mr. Spock!! ;-)

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 11:51:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

"We don't use that much force against crack houses, or Aphetamine labs... but it's now OK to do it against a family's house in a custody issue??? Gimme' a break!"

Excuse me ? We may not use the same number of people that it took at Waco or Ruby ridge, but the operation to get back Elian looked an awful lot like what we do when we execute a search warrant at a crack house or a Methamphetamine lab... I don't know what they do in your part of the country...

We tend to feel that there is no such thing as overkill if it keeps the officers safe that are executing the warrant.

Drew Wood <>
Newport, AR, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 12:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

If you are looking for a range to shoot that has some distance, then I would suggest checking out any High Power Rifle clubs in your area. You can call the NRA competitions office, and they will be able to help,or subscribe to the "Shooting Times USA" for a complete schedule of shooting events. I am a member of a club in Indiana that has a range that goes out to 500yds. It is near Borden In. I also shoot at Camp Atterbury Indiana, also a 500yd range. Ft. Knox Ky is another place to shoot. We shoot the 200/300/600 Regional Match Course there once a month, and some 1000yd matches too. Matches are on Sunday, and the Saturday before the match is squadded practice.
There are some ranges in Ohio that shoot out to 600yds, and I know that matches are held at Camp Perry during the regular season too.


Do you remember the "rules" of engagement at Ruby Ridge? The Feds could shoot any armed male without warning. Do you remember that the US Gov had to pay over 3 million bucks to Randy Weaver for the wrongful death of his wife. Waco? It is another reminder of just bad the Feds can screw something up by trying make themselves look good on camera.
Anyway, you are likely preaching to the choir here, but you said it well.
Got to get ready to go to Borden for some practice later today.

Best Regards,
Bill B <>
Ky, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 12:16:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

I just gotta' post this...

I got it in an e-mail (from the guy that got run off the site for saying "Cosine" too often... ;)

I propose a caption contest for the photo in which that half-trained
beauracrat slob is pointing his MP-5 at a man (Rule 1 anyone?) armed
only with a six-year boy. My three entries are:

1. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."
2. "Jack booted thugs? What jack booted thugs?"
3. "We are doing this for the children."


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 13:22:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

First Eric, we were just having some fun with you. Looked at the email address and figured anyone at Bragg was F'ng with us.

On the recent Federal Raid to secure a six year old kid. I do not have all the facts in this case, but will tell you that before any agency around my area doeas a High Risk Entry, it has to be determined to be High Risk. We have what I like to call a score sheet to be filled out by the investigators nefore the SWAT Team can be used. If the case does not meet the requirements no SWAT. What does that all mean, SWAT is for High Risk(you are likely to be shot at entries) not for child recovery. Here is the problem with running into a house with 30 unarmed people inside waiving a MP5. Someone panics and you fall/whatever and shoot them. Too much risk unless you have a good idea who you are after is going to resist.

Seems to me that when the negotiations didn't work you get a court order demanding that the relatives bring the kid in or be in contempt of court. If they fail to bring him in, you get a warrant for them and then arrest them. Problem here was the Fed's messed around and made butts of themselves. They took the kid as a face saving means. That is not why you send a SWAT Team. Hell we dont use SWAT Against most Felons and I would never agree to bring a MP5 in to arrest a six year old whos only crime is being from Cuba and press coverage.

Dont blame the agents that raided the place. They were just told to go in. I don't know how it is in the Fed's but a Command Level Officer in my department decides how we go armed. That is pretty much the norm anymore. The guys would take M4's everytime but Command has to concider over penetration etc.

This thing should have been decided in the courts before we introduced MP's

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 13:57:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Lito: 1 Vote for "We're doing this for the children"

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 14:27:05 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bumper, I mean 'Lito

#2 VOTE with Politically/ummm Historically correct revisions:

"We doing YOU! then the Children........."

First I've seen an MP-5 held "Gangsta style"


later Gators

BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 15:17:04 (ZULU) (your host address:

LOD did go out of business, not per the speculation that is rampant on the roster but due to an affair that resulted in a divorce. Just poor decisions.

Tactical Stocks & Supplies has purchased from the divorce attorney the remaining LOD Inventory of stocks, Rifle Data books, mounts and ring sets. As well as ghille suits and misc tactical equipment. I have posted an abbreviated listing of the materials on the emporium if there are any questions feel free to call


John Baier
Tactical Stocks & Supplies
330 488 1393
Tactical Stocks <>
Cleveland, OH, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 15:21:02 (ZULU) (your host address:

On second though probably reminds Elian of home(read:Cuba)..............


STILL TITTERING CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 15:21:16 (ZULU) (your host address:

kg weighing in:

i try not to play politics with my own opinions- i try to look the situation over, as best i can, before i give any thought to where my fellow republicans stand on it. it seems to me that a lot of conservatives are jumping in line to criticise reno and the democrat administration that put her in place for their attempts to end a horrible situation. my only criticism is that she (reno) didn't do what she did 9 days earlier. i mean, who were these people, the miami family, saying "we think the father should be involved in the decision"- wrong! it IS the father's decision. this donato imawhinybitch character deserves the thanks of a samaritan for pulling the boy from the water- he also deserves jail time for holding a child in legal custody of the U.S. justice department behind a locked door when federal agents came to retrieve him.
a comment has been made to the effect of not blaming the agents for what they carried out. would you rather criticize the agency leaders who made the decision to send their men in with adequate protection?
how different would this situation been had they gone in with Bics instead of H&Ks, pocket protectors instead of flak vests?
the fact is- a potentially dangerous situation that was draggin on for monthes was remedied in three skillfully utilized minutes. no one was hurt- none of these bleeding heart scum in miami, even those who resisted, were injured and more importantly neither were any of our offices- they live to protect us another day.

i recently saw the documentary "Waco: Rules of Engagement" and it only deepened the painful feelings i had concerning this situation. after viewing it i have no choice but to but janet reno in the same traitorous category as the likes of jane fonda. i've had more than my share of arguments, fights, and nights speant in the custody of LE but never experienced anything so inexcusable as what happened at Waco or Ruby Ridge, but that doesn't mean i can't feel the problem.
i was nearly spammed off this site for a few carelessly chosen terms in a post about my rage at recent LE actions (New York et al.), but i can't myself claim to know what oppression feels like- but i do know that this family hasn't either. they left castro's regime, came here, and saw justice served.

'lito: i'd like to see how the LE guys here interpret that photo.

any "half-trained beauracrat slob"s here got a caption for
that picture?

i suggest "Stop blubbering and hand over the child, freak!"

kg <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 15:33:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, I have to agree with the fact that the grunts on the ground were only doing their jobs. They are not the ones that made the decision to go in. But, remember, that pic of the agent, he looked properly trained. The weapon goes where the eyes go. Period. Yeah, someone couldve gotten hurt (we are ALL thankful no one did, but he was doing as he was trained.
Second part: the whole family had been given ample time to comply with what the feds wanted. They were refusing to give him up! Personally, the Mayor or local political leader, or community leader, or whoever shouldve stepped in & had the family hand him over...this all couldve been avoided.Another thing: there were rumors of armed people inside that dwelling. Were there? no. Was it worth taking the risk of regular police officers going into a potentially armed situation for which they are not particularly trained? also no. The risk of a duty officer accidentally firing is greater than that of the trained HRT team. Hence, training equalled restraint here. For good or bad, the situation couldve been avoided by the family long before it came to this. End of sermon.

Next on the box?
Bill Reed <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 15:34:27 (ZULU) (your host address:


I'm afraid to ask... but who the Hell is Bumper Morgan... did he come to the Carlos shoot last fall?


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 15:34:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Forgot one thing: the coment in Time magazine, who did an article on it, was something like: "there are 2 sides to this story. The outcome was positive, it just depends on which picture stays in your mind"
Not exact quotes, but they are reffering to the INS pic & the one of him & his dad, both smiling. You choose, then think of where we are as a society.

Bill Reed <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 15:37:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

My last word on this (see what you started Al O.!!)

This is not about the officers, though I think a guy with an MP5 that tells an unarmed woman "Don't move, or I'll blow your **** brains out"... needs to go back to sensivity training classes.

This isn't about them, just as Viet Nam wasn't the fault of the grunts that died in the rice paddys.

Guys... look at the source... look at Clinton... the long history of sending in too much power, for things that had easier solutions.

And the thing you all are missing, is we JUST lost another yo' face, and under your noses, and you still don't see it :((

When Klinton went after the gun shows, he had nothing to go on... the ATF records documented that about 1% of crime guns came from gunshows, so he couldn't use that one... so he (and Lautenburg) came up with the phrase "The gun show LOOPHOLE!!"... and it stuck. Now people talk about the gun show loophole when there wasn't any such thing... these were simply private sales... next comes (dare I say it) "The Private sales loophole"! You got the picture of how these guys work??

OK take two steps forward... we now have the public justification of a "crash and bash" entry because "There were rumors that there MAY be armed people inside"... and that's now a valid reason for crash and bash...

OK... the next step forward... I'll spread the next rumor right now...
"I think that there are armed people in about 80% of the private homes in this country!"
So what does that mean... that the govt can hit any house in the dead of the night, with MP5's because, with 600,000,000 guns in the country... there is good reason to believe that there are "armed people" with "GUNS" in "EVERY" house.

THAT, my friends, is what this is all about!

'nuff said... I gotta' get lunch.


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 16:04:56 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, sometimes a guy just gets forced out of semi-retirement. The other day a large box appeared on the doorstep with not one, but four, telescopic sights for review. And here I thought I would not be hitting the keyboard for at least a few more months…but alas, rumors of my early demise have been greatly exaggerated!

So, for those of you who care…look for four new reviews, or one large combined review. This will be on the complete line of SS sniper scopes by Tasco - now exclusively marketed by SWFA, the fine gentlemen , inf fact, who so unceremoniously forced me out of my self chosen sabbatical by sending me these scopes! :-)

Also, for those who have been confused in the past, on first gander, the spacing between the mil-dots IS pretty darn close to the standard mil-dot pattern, NOT Twice its size as has been bandied about here by some posters. It looks to be between 3.4 to 3.6 inches at 100 yards, or one mil between dots, regardless of magnification. Details to follow in the review. The scopes are the SS10x42, SS10x42M, SS16x42 and the SS20x42.

Why am I telling you all this ahead of the game? So you can brow beat me if I get lax and sit on these for a few weeks! Now that you know about it, I'll have to follow through and get the job done soonest!


PS: Gooch, great note from God! He had it right. All our troops, no matter their training or MOS, have given up of themselves. Interservice rivaly is just for fun.

Scott <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 16:51:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

First off: Al O, yes, McMillan is WAY far behind. My stock is to me now, by less than a week. I ordered it LAST YEAR! Would I do business with them again? In a heartbeat, but I'd put in for the stock 6 months in advance, because their "6 to 8 weeks delivery" time is more phony than janet reno.

Now then, I suppose I have to wade in on this measure. Lots of you have said great things, and I agree with some, but here's the dope from the CONSTITUTIONAL standpoint. The family was 100% right in what they did. One cannot take a case to the supreme court directly, it must work it's way there from city, county, state, circuit appeals, etc. They have a legally binding court date for NEXT MONTH, with a legal court order that declares that the kid stays with the relatives! This court has legal juristiction, not the feds! Until the local court decides something, it can't be appealed by either side. And even then it wouldn't be in the Fed's court for another couple of turns.
Weapons? The reporter that was in the house when the kid was taken was there several hours earlier when 3 "agents" came to talk to the family. One of the questions asked was: "do you own any weapons or have any in the house?" to which the answer was "no, you can look if you don't beleive me". And they did. Someone told them to insert hot, when it was COMPLETELY not needed, and legally indefensible. Remember, you're a citizen of whatever state you live in before you're a citizen of the FED. Also, remember one more thing. The law currently states that a Cuban of any age that asks for asylum MUST be granted asylum if he is standing on US soil. Worked that way for the 35 Cubans that hit Florida last month. The reason the feds moved in was specifically because they knew that the law says what it says, and they didn't have a case. They wanted to win, so they "adjusted" the law to be what was needed. Check your sources, the clit-tons do it ALL the time!

I sure hope it never comes to what Patron 'Lito says, but if it does, we're the last bastion of hope, the last greatest chance, to keep America from being spelled with a k, and being called a what we really are now.
Bravo <>
A bananna republic in what used to be the, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 17:18:23 (ZULU) (your host address:

'lito: How about, "Drop the Chalupa!" for a caption. I kind of like it myself. I laughed so hard it gave me heart burn.

Chalupas, for everybody!
Jeff <>
Havana, Cuba Gooding Jr. - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 17:59:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Some great posts regarding the "Cuban Crisis II". It's all about intimidation and it worked. The media claims that a majority of Americans agreed with reno's decision. I don't believe that crap at all. If it is true then we should ALL be concerned. This thing should have gone through the courts first.

Makes me wonder if Klinton struck some kind of a "deal" with castro....maybe for more cigars for Monica?

Lito....add a new caption. "Greetings from your President"

Jim D <>
Humble , Texas, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 18:04:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, ok... just ONE more comment...

Bravo... right on Dude.

Jim D...

On the "Support" of Americans... I went to last night.
It's not an anti Klinton site, and the opinions will swing left and right... and last night, the public was AGAINST this fiasco by 60+%...

He's got "Zip" for support on this raid.

I just hope the short memoried Americans remember this next November.

Ok... now no more... but you'z guys gotta stop wtriting such good stuff ;)


Pablito <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 18:33:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

John Bair: tactical inventory.

John, you should post that announcement on the tactical-announce list. That list was setup for announcements, advertisements, events, etc of interest to the tactical shooting community.

Compose an email with your announcement and send it to:

All: If you are not on the tactical-announce list, send me an email and and say 'add me'. That's the place where it's okay to advertise to the tactical community.

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 20:02:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry about the length of this but I thought you guys might wanna read this. For those of you that don't know about him Huckabee is a Baptist Preacher, Republican former Lt Governor who got elected a few years ago after the then current Democratic successor to Clinton resigned when he got caught up in some Post-Clinton fallout. Go Huck!!

April 13, 2000
The Honorable Eliot Spitzer
Attorney General
Office of the Attorney General
The Capitol
Albany, New York 12224

Dear General Spitzer:

"I have received your letter of March 16, 2000 inviting me to join in your effort to encourage various state and local governments to award law enforcement gun contracts only to gun manufacturers agreeing to a "Code of Conduct" which dictates various business practices, safety features, marketing strategies, etc., for both gun manufacturers and gun dealers at the wholesale and retail level. I must respectfully decline your invitation.

First let me say, if I believed the safety of my constituents were truly the issue, I would be much more considerate of your request. But we are not living in a country flooded with "unsafe" guns. It is their illegal use that endangers us-that must be addressed through vigorous criminal prosecution.

Providing for guns safety locks is one thing and, in truth, only a small part of your "Code of Conduct." However, dictating how many guns a purchasers is allowed to take home on one day, banning sales at gun shows and prohibiting a minor from even entering a gun store without a parent or guardian are parts of a political agenda, not a push for "gun safety." Coupling the safety issue with a strict regulation of business practices is merely a maneuver to advance a decidedly political agenda under the guise of "public safety."

I am a strong proponent and defender of Americans' Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. I also make every effort to be a responsible manager of my constituents' tax dollars. I ask the director of the Arkansas State Police to make purchasing and requisition decisions based on quality, service and price. I will not ask him to award a lucrative government contract in order to further a political agenda geared at controlling and ultimately destroying
the firearms industry. I want Arkansas State Troopers to protect our citizens and themselves using the best guns available, not guns from the most "politically correct" manufacturer.

In 1999, I signed into law an act prohibiting Arkansas' local governments from suing firearms manufacturers seeking compensation for injuries and deaths resulting from the illegal use of these companies' products. To hold the gun industry accountable for crime is like holding our nation's farmers liable for the healthcare costs associated with obesity. The desire of some to blame the gun manufacturers for crime rather than prosecute criminals seems to me a sadly misguided attempt at protecting our citizens. It is also a rather thinly veiled attempt to vilify and control those who engage in a business which is eminently legal and necessary, yet not particularly smiled upon by the current administration in Washington.

I thank God previous administrations understood and appreciated not only the sanctity of the Second Amendment, but its necessity as well.

Gun manufacturers make the Second Amendment a viable right rather than some theoretical proposition. I will not abuse my authority as Governor to pursue their demise or dictate their business practices through coercion.

So the answer is a definite 'no," I will not seek the capitulation of firearm manufacturers through the use of asinine lawsuits or the doling out of taxpayer-funded government contracts. I regret that you feel either of these tactics to be worthwhile endeavors."

Sincerely yours,
Mike Huckabee

Gooch <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 20:43:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

To remember...

Elian's father divorced his wife and has already waived custody rights and now all of the sudden he wants his son back. It sure did take him a long time to come this conclusion. If everyone has Elian's true best interest at heart how could they possibly agree to a dynamic entry. Everything else I say would be just repeating what Pablo says about Americans with guns and people declaring asylum.
Bravo on that. We must be ready to fight though.

Next, I would like a good heavy three way adjustable stock for a 700 Sendero .300 Win Mag. The cheek needs to be adjustable to a 50-56mm obj. lens scope. I'm sold on Nightforce or U.S. Optics. A detachable box mag would be nice. And I'm a short guy with short arms. My biggest problem on the M40A1 was scope adjustments. I usually had to come out of position just to reach the scope.
I would also like any recommendations for a reasonably priced scope for a Bushmaster AR-15 with a detachable carry handle. Just for play. Nothin too expensive. Shot it not too long ago. Just over 2" groups at 100 yards. Sweet rifle.

Great comments on Elian

Semper Fi
sean <>
houston, tx, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 21:48:58 (ZULU) (your host address:

Elian ad nauseum. Go to & scroll down to April 26 for a darling picture. Don't worry, nothing dirty.
Pablo raises a good point re setting a precedent.
Jim <>
PDX, Or, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 22:46:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
Elian ad nauseum. Go to for a picture of the little guy. Scroll to April 26. Don't worry, nothing dirty.
Excellent point, Pablito, re the precedent being set.
Jim <>
PDX, Or., - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 22:51:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
I'm surprised at you guys, especially you lito' Elian is a Castro Spy it's the oldest trick in the book. He's actually Jaun Diego Garcia MASTER spy. Hiding in the closet tsk, tsk! Another old spy trick!
He's after our computer secrets! Look closely you can see his AT&T calling card in his back pocket. Janet only did what she had too to protect her country's secrets. You guys should repent! He's not foolin me with those short pants!
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 23:35:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
To all concerned,
if you have a rifle made /smithed by TBA, and have a problem with it, I sugggest you get in touch with the proprietor.
He will gladly make it right/and/or, refund your money in full.
As many /most of you know, there are only two (2), vendors for clones of the M40 series rifle's.
One is Iron brigade, the other is TBA.( if there's any more pls post names and addresses).Current waiting list's and delivery times for either is at, or over a year.
You probably are aware of this also.If you place an order for one , don't expect it earlier, unless you got friends in high places. Like the builders!.
The E M address for TBA is posted on Mike's site.I am not Mike, I am a friend and customer.I know he will gladly take back any rifle you think is not up to snuff, He makes his living by building quality , accurate rifles.If his product was crap/ then I don't think the wait would be nearly as long a process.
By the way prices just went UP, so if your interested in a piece of history, or as close as is being produced that I know of, better get in line ....sorry for the long thread, smokepole308.
smokepole308 <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 23:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
To all concerned,
if you have a rifle made /smithed by TBA, and have a problem with it, I sugggest you get in touch with the proprietor.
He will gladly make it right/and/or, refund your money in full.
As many /most of you know, there are only two (2), vendors for clones of the M40 series rifle's.
One is Iron brigade, the other is TBA.( if there's any more pls post names and addresses).Current waiting list's and delivery times for either is at, or over a year.
You probably are aware of this also.If you place an order for one , don't expect it earlier, unless you got friends in high places. Like the builders!.
The E M address for TBA is posted on Mike's site.I am not Mike, I am a friend and customer.I know he will gladly take back any rifle you think is not up to snuff, He makes his living by building quality , accurate rifles.If his product was crap/ then I don't think the wait would be nearly as long a process.
By the way prices just went UP, so if your interested in a piece of history, or as close as is being produced that I know of, better get in line ....sorry for the long thread, smokepole308.
smokepole308 <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 23:43:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
Has nayone used the US Tactical Supply Tailer pack? Need a review if anyone has.
Bolt <>
USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 23:52:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
"Drop the chalupa" What a GAS! Laughed till I cried!!!!!
On a different tangent,went to Aberdeen Proving Grounds this week to show the ins and outs of the XM107, had a hoot!Shot at 500m, 1000m and 1700m with MK211 Raufoss. Talk about a riot. I had a blast. It was finally my turn to burn up some taxpayer ammo.
Outta here.
Tony <>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Thursday, April 27, 2000 at 23:53:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Great post!

Also, thanks for telling me to conact Hugo at TRGT for the data book. I recieved my data book in today, that thing kicks ass!

Kush out
Kush <>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 00:17:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

I really don't understand all the fuss over this one illegal alien child from Cuba. Who gives a shit? Hundereds like him enter your country on a daily basis, whether they arrive by boat, plane, by car, or on their own two feet.

I don't see anyone worrying about their prospects for living in a "free(?)" America or if they have parents or gaurdians who want them back home.

Instead, they get brought into sweat shops, plantations, and other exploitive situations where they get to live, "The American Dream".

Let's be honest here shall we. Under the same circumstances, if this kid was Haitian, or any other nationality for that matter, he would have had his sorry ass sent back to his impoverished homeland on the next plane ride out of Miami.

Yeah, the storm trooper tactics were a stupid idea. But what would you have expected? Your Gov't basically painted itself into a corner by letting this thing get out of hand in the first place.

Manuel Labor <>
Enjoying my stay in the USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 00:28:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

The agents did a good job in a bad situation, which they probably did not want to take part in.

But I can't help but wonder, since when does the INS, and specifically Border Patrol, have jurisdiction in what was at that time nothing but a custody dispute?
Mark <>
Ohio, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 03:21:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

Ok, the "rescue" ha!

This is a point that should be concidered. The raid on the Miami house by Federal Agents is nothing new. I saw a post that said "They probably didn't like it" meaning the agents view point on the mission. Ok, fine. So if and when they are asked to search house to house for privately owned weapons, will they do it even though they don't like it?
Frightening, to say the least. I know 99.9% of LE brothers out there feel strong support for the individual right to owm firearm, assault weapons too. I know how these tactics work against them. It kinda goes like this...."If you want your pention, go out and search!" This is one of the shameless ways that politicians use law enforcement for political enforcement.
It is my humble opinion that the Constitution is a Divinely inspired document. For those who are in question of the second amendment, concider this. 128 million people died as war casualties during the last century. 168-180million were victims of genocide by there own governments.
Remember history boys, Germany used gun registration in Denmark to go play "knock, knock" in the game of "hand it over or die." History is repeating itself. I seriously hope you don't believe that the curren administration has the best interests of the people in mind. This is the same administration that is selling us out. The same administration that weakened out military to the point of certain catastrophy if we get snarled in a serious war, like China.
I for one believe in my (our) Constitution, whole heartedly. Never before has freedom been so raped in this great nation. You cannot legislate Utopia. Freedom comes at a high price. I hope that when the time comes those who are on those teams, instructed to stomp on the face of humanity tells the ones giving the orders "Enough!" I for one will not sell out my own people. If comes down to it I will leave the country.
Just remind yourselves why we exist in the first place, read the Declaration of Independence to rekindle the spirit of freedom. There are people who want to outlaw religion altogether, not to mention the right to be free.

God bless (and save) America.
Semper Fidelis

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 05:13:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

I promise... no more Elian

I get a lotta e-mail... (some of it from youz guys telling me to take a hike :)... and I'm on a lotta lists for Constitutional stuff. (I have, this morning 2476 pieces of mail in the incoming box... it comes in faster than I can read it :((

I've read some stuff from some of you guys that shows clear interest in what is going on in the Government, and I thought I'd pass this on.

I got an e-mail from Matthew Gaylor's service this morning, on some the abuses of the Clinton/Reno "Dept of Justice"(?), that made my toes curl up, so I thought I'd let you guys know about the list.
He's not like Rush Limbaugh, with one man's opinion... Matt sends out writings from the best minds the country, on personal/constitutional issues... much of it, prior to being published in a book.

Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to:

...with the words

subscribe FA

...on the subject line.

It's very good stuff.

Pablito <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 09:29:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

Karma: I can't see the connection here. How did we go from discussing a boy being taken in custody so that he could be with his father, to saying that armed SWAT will be at your door looking for you because you are a gun owner?

That's a whole new topic my friend, and we shouldn't interchange the facts of one case to support the fears of another. "Alien" Gonzales has nothing to do with "black helicopters" or the New World Order coming in to take your guns and personal freedoms away.

I live in a country whose gun laws are one of the toughest in the world. I'd take your country's gun controls any day of the week compared to ours.

Jeff Babineau <>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 09:29:52 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff Babineau...

"I live in a country whose gun laws are one of the toughest in the world. I'd take your country's gun controls any day of the week compared to ours."

How do you think you got your restrictive laws... not in one big declaration... you got them the same way that we're getting ours... by one'zies, and two'zies, and you guys let it happen.

You got a few frisky indians that throw a fit, and break the law, you get new laws to protect you from those indians "with guns".

We have a few nuts that misuse guns, and we get new laws to "Protect" us from nuts "with guns".

We're bitchin' about it, because we don't want to wind up like you guys.

It's an American tradition to bitch about excesses of our Government (while others sit back, and let their governments do what they like).

It's not about black helicopters... don't watch our TV for "the news"... read the writings of the constitutional thinkers in this country to get the gist of what's going on.


Pablito <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 09:51:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

YEp, that's the point our Gov. is beginning to resort to armed forced entry whether it's your car or home or body to test for drugs and alk.
as a regular means for enforcing their bureaucratic mandates. As in the case of firearms enforcement. They use the threat of breaking down your door and wrecking your home to deter you from getting guns they don't like or just to test your politics for the Consitution.
It happens everywhere eventually where bureaus and dictator's rule.
It's becoming a pattern we can't tolerate in this country if we are to
remain a free nation in any sense of the word. Bureaus begone from our lives please! There was no criminal act here unless you want to consider defiance of the bureau's made on the spot orders. It's still in question how far defiance goes before it's a shooting offense. That mess could have gone really bad. Not since the days of Al Capone have they made these kind of mistakes.
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 11:58:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
I wanted to mention something shooting related. I went to the range yesterday with Mike Miller & Jerry Rice. I was breaking in my new Jerry rifle. I know that I have said it before, but Jerry's work is great! After I got it on the paper, and within abnout twenty rounds it was shooting quarter minute groups. (well, I watched Mike do that with my rifle anyways!) I am going to be taking the ASA rifle class the first week in June that is being conducted in New Mexico, If anyone is still sitting on the fence about if they are going or not, I urge you to contact Mike. He is a really great teacher. When his foot is not bothering him, or if he doesn't have the flu he He really can shoot!!

Seriously though, I would strongly urge anybody who is thinking about the class to go for it

Michael Sheehan <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 13:27:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Jeff B., well said, but I would take your countries open spaces over our over crowding. If we could just get our freedoms with your space, we would have America 50 years ago. That would be something!

Mike Sheehan, thanks for the kind words, but you have to get off this Flu/Sore Foot Thing, its killing me. Your rifle is capable of better than .25 MOA Groups. That is the fastest bbl break in I have ever seen! KxP BBl's are great. Watch out when my new Match Rifle is complete. No fancy calibers of the mnth, just a plain old 308 Win, Modified 40X McMillan Stock, KxP Bbbl, Rem 700 Action, RPA Sites and Jerry's Magic Touch.

MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 14:46:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

was watching the local news and three of the eight or so bourroughs in the greater cleveland area have taken klinton's bait and agreed to only buy from smith & wesson.
when i heard about this plan (from this sight) it sounded so absurd to me that i didn't think any LE angencies would actually take klinton up on it. as far as i understood, angencies chose their weapons through exhaustive testing with one important criteria being what the officers like. officers in my home town carry Sig side arms and Remington 870's in their cruisers. two officers i shoot with told me the only way they wouldn't protest a side arm change is if the budget opened up for them to get H&Ks. i guess the department has a reimbursement limit if the officer chooses to buy a secondary sidearm or off-duty gun. the PD 'smith orders most of these guns for cost- but he won't order s&w. i'd venture to bet that no officer in my city carries one.
the retailer i deal with has all his existing s&w stock at 20% off and it's still not moving. that tells me the gun enthusiasts in my area are being responsible with their personal political power.

it disturbs me that some local LE is willing to adopt policies that its citizenry has so obviously rejected. the Elian thread morphed into one about LE agents being willing or not to come to your house and take your guns upon command from their leaders. i previously had faith that any tax-paying, right-bearing citizen who serves in LE would refuse any orders that infringes on the rights of his fellow citizens (-rember, when his shift is off and he goes home, he's no different that you or i), but now i'm worried.

is this happening anywhere else? anybody's local LE jumping on this s#!twagon? any ideas for constructive protest?

kg <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 16:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK, back to gun stuff. Goodie!

I was reading an article in Handloader about Jacketed vs Lead bullets in handguns. If you are a subcriber it is in issue #153. Anyway I have curbed using jacketed bullets in my pistols by 95%. Why? Well for one it's cheaper, and two it extends the barrel life conciderably. Personally I use a 255gr Bull-X SWC behind 6.0gr Unique in my .45ACPs. I use a 295gr Kieth SWC/GC in my .44 magnums. I find that the shoulder on the bullet does as much damage as a HP does on flesh (animal of course). I like the penetration of hard cast bullets too. Although I use jacketed exclusively in my 9mm pistols.
I'm trying to find a good HEAVY .358 cal lead bullet to use in my .358 JDJ. I can shoot a 250gr SP at arount 2250f/s. Yeah, I know it's a bit big but, everyone need at least one hand cannon right? It sure gets your attention at a pistol range. KA-BOOM!

Semper Fi

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 16:34:13 (ZULU) (your host address:

Scatter gun guys:
As we are now seeing an increase in both home invasions and domestic terrorism, I'm thinking of "getting good" with a scatter gun. This, of course, means lots of practice and shooting, as well as some classes. So do any of you have a Hornady model 366 shotgun progressive reloader? Before downing any cash into a machine, I like to get a good, honest opinion on it from someone that actually has one and uses it. No Lee presses for me!
Also, good suggestions on either a high cap autoloader 20 gauge, or opinion on if I should just load the 12's "tactically" (i.e., downloaded for less recoil).
Thanks a bunch!
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 16:52:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
Kg. Let them have their fun. Several Gun Manufacturers have filed suits against the the Kingon government under something like fair trade practices for having tried to influence private business with their tactics. It should be interesting to watch them get sued for a change. Let the good times Roll.
1 click=1000 meters I believe. A map reference.
16 Years old and building Ghillie suits. What a fine example of American Youth. Your a bit beyond the gate though, how'd you get past the guard? Due to considerations for liability and political pressures I believe you have to certify your 18 to participate in the
SC forum. Nobody likes it ...just one of those things... if we were sittin here drinkin burbon we couldn't offer you drink understand....
that doesn't mean we wouldn't like to socialize with young would be
we/I for one like to see you pursuing something like your doing as opposed to looking for a drug source. But we are kind of handicapped here by Society and it's constraints. Keep on keepin on though.

Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 17:45:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

I was going to buy a progressive shotshell reloader a couple of years back and didn't know whether to go with the Hornady or a MEC 9000G. Called my friends at the Hodgdon Powder Co. and according to them, the only press the guys in their lab hadn't been able to break was a MEC 9000G. I bought one and have been very happy with it. Ran about 3000 rounds through it last year and it still works like a dream. If you are just going to load for home defense, you might want to consider going with 6's or 8's instead of buck. At close range they can do one heck of a job and you aren't going to take out the people next door. As far as a good auto-loader,IMHO, the Remington 11-87 is a good way to go and considerably cheaper than a Benelli.
Doc <>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 19:18:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey Guys,

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but: I work for a federal agency, and from time to time at work I check in to the Duty Roster. ( During coffee break or at lunch of course). Well since this site has been critical of the Miami fiasco I can't seem to access the site at work. Keep getting web page unavailable. Tried all the other sniper sites, no problem. Come home and no problem. Just in the last two days, tried another agency computer, na da. Like I say maybe it's paranoia, or breathing to much hoppe's or maybe some one thinks we're becoming dangerous mind influencing anti Klintonista's.
Hmmmmmmm.... Lito I'm sure you have an opinion!

Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 20:01:15 (ZULU) (your host address:

Danny, I'd say your under parental control. (your great uncle) Possibly the word "sniper" is forbidden to your software.... just a thought...but, do you work for the post office?
Bill Rogers <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 20:38:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
A couple of months ago on the Emporium, a guy was advertising reconditioning of AR mags. Does anyone know who he is? Did anyone get any done and was it worth the cost. Just came into a windfall of mags that need a little help in the looks department.

Mouse gun Bolt, out!

Bolt <>
USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 21:15:41 (ZULU) (your host address:

Well, I just got to weigh in on this Chalupa Gonzales issue.
Here is the problem in a nutshell. A whole lot of folks in our Government should hwve flunked Kindergarten because they never learned to play nice. That is the major problem that I have with Waco, Ruby Ridge, and now the Miami incident. I have never pointed a gun at anyone in my life. Not even by accident! and I believe that anyone who would do such a thing without a damn good reason to be a fool. Mike Miller said once a while back, Be nice until it is time not to be nice... or something like that. I think that is good advice. The way the Miami situation should have been handled is to have some sweet little old lady social worker go up to the front door and say I am here by court order to pick up the boy at take him to his father. If the family then refused, well then more persuasive measures could be taken.
What should be done now if the Law in Miami had any Conjones, is to have arrest warrents issued for every INS agent that entered that house with an unholstered weapon. They should have their day in Court. Who knows, they might be found innocent. But they will be found guilty if a few Reasonable and Prudent men, (like me for instance) are sitting on that jury.

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 23:12:54 (ZULU) (your host address:

Shotshell reloader:

It was a MEC grabber that served me well back when I shot a lot of skeet. I recomend it wholeheartedly to anybody that wants to throw together 3-4 boxes a week rather quickly. As for shot size, I found buckshot to be relativly dificult to load, having to stop to insert the pellets by hand and geting absolutly lousy patterns for my trouble. Sadly, since lead shot was banned for duck hunting about ten years ago there dosent seem to be nearly as much heavy birdshot available to reload. Seems to be harder to find, anyway. Otherwise, I'd say load some nice stiff loads 5s, Bs or BBs. I have an old bag of T-Buck stuck back for such an application but still use factory short magnum loads ( an old lead duck load of 1 1/2 oz. of BBs) for housegun work. I like the balance of tactical penetration and lack of effective range they provide. Comperable loads are still sold for turkey hunting. Thats where I would look. YYMV, needless to say. Then there is the school of thought that says a 55gr. Ballistic Tip out of an M4 is the answer. Got that angle covered, too...

Bill R.

It should be fun to watch them get sued FOR A CHANGE? Geez, and I thought this was already the most sued president in American history. Shows what I know...oh, you mean for something *other* than attemting to diddle every female that comes into radar range. Silly me.

"The Sniper" (which obviously isnt quite accurate, at least not yet)

Assuming you have not been run out of here by the list administrators, might I ask just why you want to become a sniper at such a young age? I mean, this is a job that calls for one, among other things, to cooly and professionaly shoot people. I would certainly hope that this is not the aspect of the job that attracts you, as a burning desire to do same has a funny way of gettig you DQed as a canidate, or so I understand. Sixteen strikes me as a young enough age to decide not only on a military career, but on such a narrow, specific job within the military, one that is not only particularly demanding of body and mind and dangerous but a job that requires one to kill people on a regular basis. I mean, when I was that age the best the military seemed to offer at the time was the prospect of a trip to Nicaragua or El Salvador to clean up a mess that the US had an inordinatly large role in creating to begin with. Not for me, thanks. What is it that you have in mind? We keep seeing this sort of profession of interest on the part of the very young here and I just don't quite get it.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, South Cackylackey, USA - Friday, April 28, 2000 at 23:20:33 (ZULU) (your host address:


Did the subscribe to freematt from work and home. Did same with KABA, COA and a couple of others a while back. Thanks for the tip.


That letter from "Huck" was a beauty. Not to mention that yours, 'lito's and others comments are very eloquent... and accurate.


I look forward to your reviews to come re: the SS scopes, especially since I ordered the 16 x 42 and the Nikon rangefinder from SWFA a couple of weeks ago and got 'em last week. I want to figure a way to test the accuracy of the scope's adjustments.

I'll admit to being pretty much ignorant of the details of the Elian raid, but today I saw a clip on an interview with one of the "commanders" . He stated that no weapons were pointed at anyone during the raid. While he was making this statement, a photo of the agent pointing his HK(?) at the woman holding the child was displayed on screen...hmmm.

This worries me big time. What really worries me is I hear people say stuff like " That sort of thing would never happen in this country"...hello? Or. that it wouldn't affect them any way. Wonder if the were thiking like that in Denmark, and Poland around, say 1939-40?

I think some folks still need to wake up.

Gentlemen, keep up the good posts.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <>
Sniper Fu, GA, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 00:18:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Danny Reever:

I had to re ip address all of my websites and machines 2 days ago. There is a possibility that your browser is trying for the old address due to your lan DNS not being updated yet.

If you want - just use the ip address of the site - that will always work -unless we're just plain off the air:

that should bring the site up too :)

Ken :)

Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 00:35:59 (ZULU) (your host address:

Paranoia over (I think). Real equipment question.
How many think the AICS stock for the Remington 700 is worth the money?
Thats very big bucks ($650) but in this months Tactical Shooter article on page 21 four of the five photos are AICS stocks.
Any of you guys using them? Likes? Dislikes?

Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 01:54:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Okay, I'm a little corn-fused on this "Alien", I mean Elian issue... Who was it that entered the house??? Was it INS, FBI or SWAT? I have heard the same team refered to as all three things. As for my only take on the issue... I am sure that they would've ripped my daughter out of my husbands hands and give her to her "father" if was were to die, and we're all Americans!

Now, as for the real reason for this: I have a Marlin Guide Gun and would like to know what the best all around loads are and what the best effective range is... if known.
I was introduced to shooting recently and am proud to say I like it. I would really like to keep that right to teach all the responsibilities to my child. I hope everyone keeps fighting here, unlike in other countries.

Tina K <>
Spokane, Wa, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 02:59:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thanks to you all for the timely post's and discussion, on the very sad state of affairs( no pun intended), w/ respect to the erosion of ALL OUR rights!. We as a people and a free society can never , for one second , develop the attitude of our Canadien neighbor.
'lito, your response was dead on. Not being LE, or military, I often wonder about what the majority of our fellow American's response would be to such orders.
I pray to the good LORD, that they, like you all, and myself as long as the flame of Liberty burns deep within our collective breast's, would NEVER obey such an order.
Pension or no,GOD help us if it's so.I'm deeply moved and honored to be able to converse with like minded individual's, that still BELIEVE in what this country was founded for, and what it is still supposed to be about. May the flame never go out on our watch.........thank you kind sir's..tshoes(Terry).
tshoes <>
USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 03:07:31 (ZULU) (your host address:

kg <>
USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 03:18:48 (ZULU) (your host address:


kg <>
USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 03:18:49 (ZULU) (your host address:

*** PGP Signature Status: good
*** Signer: kg 
*** Signed: 4/29/00 12:27:00 AM
*** Verified: 4/29/00 12:27:09 AM

for what it's worth- my Uncle's had a big hulking piece of MEC
bolted to his bench for like twenty years of something. don't
know what model it is. to be honest i thought MEC was an off
brand till you started this thread. every shell i hunted with
and turkey-shooteded..ed with as a kid came off it.

you wanna prosecute LE officers (entry officers!!!) for drawing
their weapons?
did i say that out loud?!?

al sharpton on Politically Incorrect, or janet reno on cnn...
decisions, decisions.
...i mean they just get up there on tv and hand out ammunition.



kg <>
USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 03:34:06 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK I'm about to ask Mrs. Sarge for her blessing on a Leupold LR M1 3.5x10. Now the $64,000 question - who has the best price??? Please e-mail me so I won't tie up the roster with this thread - of course that is unless inquiring minds want to know!! :-)


Sarge <>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 03:47:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Does anyone know the muzzle velocity of the H&K G36K? I have only located one H&K brochure which claims 2788 fps. This seems rather high for a twelve and a half inch barrel. It also does not state what type of ammo. achieved this velocity.

Any information would be appreciated. Thanks.
Darrell <>
Victoria, BC, Canada - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 06:20:53 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have a Remington 700P DM in .308 but I was thinking about going to the same rifle in .300 Win.Mag (flatter shooting). Does anyone have any experience with this rifle in 300 Win.Mag? Can I expect the same (or better) performance? What about barrel life? I currently shoot 300-400 rounds every weekend (buy new winchester brass by the barrel). My shooting buddy and I were shooting pop cans at about 400 yds. but it's too easy now so we've moved up to 6 inch balloons fastened to the ends of 3 ft. welding rod (keeps us honest, so we don't break the balloons by splashing them with debris when we miss) at about 800 yds. How many rounds can I expect the barrels to last in either rifle, assuming that they are cleaned at the end of each session? Any info would be greatly appreciated. This is a great site and you professionals have my respect for your dedication and sacrifice. Gerry
Gerry <>
Newberg, OR, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 06:51:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
Anyone with have any experience with Fulton Armory? Are their National Match Peerless rifles (M-14/M1A) any good?

Gerry <>
Portland, OR, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 07:08:16 (ZULU) (your host address:


Yes, I do. Why not? Cops can lose their jobs for excessive use of force. It happens all the time.
What laws were broken? Who was arrested? What is the one Good reason that they needed to go in there and scare a bunch of people half to death over this? If any ordinary citizen were to try to do the same thing, They would find themselvs in jail! What makes these INS agents soo special? Remember Rodney King?
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 09:00:33 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sent this to Sarge but thought I'd share it here. of Nanticote Penna. has Leupold Mark 4 M1 3.5-10 with mildots for $941.16. They also have Vari X III M1 3.5-10 with mildots for $672.39. Sell Federal GM both 168 and 175 for $13.42 per box and give quanity discounts. They can send you a hard copy catalog on request.
I've dealt with these people, they stock what they sell, and ship same day. I'd recomend them 100%.

Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville , Pa, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 10:02:28 (ZULU) (your host address:

Scott....Tasco SS10X42M has 3.44 Mil-Dot spacing.I just took the spec
from the literature that came with my scope, then verified
it on a graduated chart.

Bravo....Right on about Miami fiasco and what the implications are
for all of us in the not-so-distant future. The SS were only
"following orders" too, and I bet some of them were also
worrying about their pensions. Remember-it's not too far from
"We're here to help you and we're following the Governments
orders" to "This way to the showers-you won't need a towell".
Having lots of shotgun experience I would take a light-loaded
12ga. over a 20 for defense any day. Twelves are more
versatile and efficient (shorter shot-string,etc.)

Sarge....Try SWFA. Prices and service very good in my experience.

Gerry....Clint McKee at Fulton Armory does great work and won't steer
you wrong.It's tough to beat his M1A's.

Jim D....Klinton does have a deal with Kastro-it's called opening
trade with Kuba for the first time in almost 30 years.This
is a legacy that Klinton wants so desperatley to leave at
the end of his Presidency, and Illegal Elian almost screwed
it up for him.
Al S.

Al Simon <>
Getting full of newcomers, CO, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 11:33:14 (ZULU) (your host address:


Best prices around for optics that I know of is:

Vari-X III Mx LRs for for $629.95 to $699.95, depending on recticle. Thats just a few points over dead-nut wholesale.


.300 Win Mag is a fairly widely used tactical cartrige for long range work, both match and tactical. Its primary advanatage is that it cam keep heavy wind-bucking bullets supersonic well past 1000 yards and that it is fairly easy to live with logisticaly, in that guns and reloading components are commonly avialable and reasonably priced. The downside it that it is a fairly intense cartrige and so you pay a price in terms of recoil (stiff) and barrel life (not much over 1,000 rounds, as opposed to 5,000 or more for a .308). As for the 700PSS DM, the troubles I have had with my 700PSS DM in .308 are well codumented in the archives here, the short version being that it took a trip to the factory, the purchase of a set of crowning tools and a rebedding job to get it to shoot decently. I am not eager to give Remington amy more of my money just now. I would do what I originaly planned to do to begin with: get ahold of a 700 or Howa action (I am fond of Howas) and ship it off to have a (insert quality brand name here) barrel screwed into it and order in a McMillan stock. Takes more time but not that much more money.

Fulton M14 rifles are as good as any you can get from anywhere, built by anybody. Top-grade stuff from a top-grade outfit.


Tom Simpson <>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 12:01:11 (ZULU) (your host address:

Hey guys: I'm thinking that I want to start a new kind of "game", but I'm just starting the planning phase now. I'm thinking something along the lines of IDPA, but at longer ranges (say 25 to 100 or so yards, make the hard shots at 200 yd?), and done with carbines or rifles. Basically, I'm wanting to combine CQB and IDPA. Movement and "no shoot" targets, possibly partially obscured "bad guys". Any thoughts on what would be good to incorporate or exclude? Who knows, it just might catch on! With a timer and "failure to neutralize" rules, all on IDPA targets, it could be a real blast and an objective way to evaluate different rifles. Not to mention giving "legitimate sporting purpose" (like we need it) to the AK's and such. Not that I would have one, but I know folks who do and love them.
All comments welcome!
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 18:46:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
Hey guys: I'm thinking that I want to start a new kind of "game", but I'm just starting the planning phase now. I'm thinking something along the lines of IDPA, but at longer ranges (say 25 to 100 or so yards, make the hard shots at 200 yd?), and done with carbines or rifles. Basically, I'm wanting to combine CQB and IDPA. Movement and "no shoot" targets, possibly partially obscured "bad guys". Any thoughts on what would be good to incorporate or exclude? Who knows, it just might catch on! With a timer and "failure to neutralize" rules, all on IDPA targets, it could be a real blast and an objective way to evaluate different rifles. Not to mention giving "legitimate sporting purpose" (like we need it) to the AK's and such. Not that I would have one, but I know folks who do and love them.
All comments welcome!
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 18:46:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
DOH! Sorry guys, the mouse slam fired. Please don't remove body parts!
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 18:48:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
To Tom Simpson and Al Simon
Thanks for the tips and information. I went ahead and tried the Fulton Armory M14 National Match Peerles....and now I own one. It sure is convincing when you fire your first full clip and hit everything you aim at, even at varying ranges (mines got the Hart SS barrel). Thanks again. It seems like everyone is always looking for inexpensive quality binoculars...have you tried the Navy One line imported by Pioneer Research? (Same people who import Steiners.) The N1 full size are made to the same mil spec as the navy N2, armored, waterproof and attached lens caps ala Steiner with an advertised 95%+
light transmission. I picked up a pair for about $230 and they are as clear as my Steiners (a little heavier though), I also picked up a pair of their compact model 8x24 (90% light transmission)(but stupid "I lost them...lens caps") about $140. Now, I'm using cut innertube straps as bikini style lens caps, ugly but they work and they're cheap. Check'em out! For quality low price binos. Pause, holding breath, steady and squeeze gently...

Gerry <>
Newberg, OR, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 21:50:43 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sorry Guys
The cheap Federal GM I told you about is no more. I bought on 4/21@$13.42 a box, I just checked the site and it's now $16.25.

Sorry but I didn't think it would jump $3 in a week.
Danny Reever <>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, April 29, 2000 at 22:01:51 (ZULU) (your host address:

ALL: please take a minute and go to: - and review (please sign too) the petition.



Ken <>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 01:05:38 (ZULU) (your host address:

I only get over here to SC about once or twice a month, and last time I got Mike M. mad at me (hope your still not too mad, it was an honest question and not an attack) because I wasn't clear in my post. This time I will try my best to be clear.
I am quite disappointed with most of the regulars here. There seems to be a bandwagon that people are /have jumped on and it is the Miami situation. Mark has come the closest to how most Border Patrol and INS agents (the many that I know and talk to daily so I won't try to speak for the others) see it (as do I). Where are we getting our information? The TV news, newspapers, and weekly magazines? Wait, are these the same papers that paint our guns as "bad killing machines capable of pin point hits at 1 mile?" Are these the same sources that keep spewing the one-sided gun control issue that everyone here hates? Why do we want to all of a sudden believe the one sided story that they are giving us now? Who here really knows the history of the Father, the family, or the child? Who here knows what agents thought, who wanted to go in and who didn't? I have friends on the BORTAC (Border Patrol Tactical Unit) that were called out several days before the raid. They haven't returned yet so I don't know if they were involved in the raid but my guess is that they were in some fashion. Who here really knows the laws and process of the INS or is it just what the media has fed us?
Being married to a Border patrol agent and living on the Mexican Border I can tell you this. Children under the age of 14 do not speak for themselves. Why should a 6-year-old boy? All of you with children under the age of 14 (or should we just stay with age 6), how impressionable are your kids? I bet you tell them that you "don't want them hanging around that kid down the block because he is a bad influence." If they can be so easily influenced by other kids, why can't they be just as easily influenced by adults with a political agenda like bring down the Castro regime? Why should we even ask a 6 year old what country he wants to live in? He doesn't even know what foods he likes yet?
This was a political mess to begin with. It is common practice for the INS to let a local relative keep a child while they investigate where and how to send them back. The family took advantage of this and successfully turned this into a media feeding frenzy. There are at least 10 kids under 18 sitting in each of the 5 Border patrol stations within 45 min of my house right now. Why don't you call your Congressman and demand that they stay here too? How about the "jugglers" (young kids that cross illegally into the US and then juggle fruit at stoplights for change) that begs for change and then buy paint (on the black-market) to huff? Why don't you get mad and make sure they stay here too. Most of them are well under 14. Where is the biased media for their individual causes?
Now about the raid! The bandwagon seems to think that guns should not have been involved and that the "Jack Booted Thugs" with MP5's are evil government clones. A lot of you are on SWAT teams as snipers of entry personnel, many others are patrol officers. I know for a fact that when you conduct raids or stop cars you cry "unfair" when the local paper second-guesses your actions. How did you suddenly get 20/20 hindsight that is "fair?" When did you become the pedestal that everyone else should be judged against?! A few years back there was a little bank robbery in CA. People still cry "unfair" because the PD was "not equipped for the modern threat." Patrol officers now get issued carbines on a regular basis so they are not "over gunned" in their normal duties of stopping cars and answering domestic calls. If those INS agents had gone into that house unarmed, or that "little old lady from the child protective service" by herself was attacked or "outgunned" then most of you would be asking 'why didn't they have big guns and assault gear." You would ask "didn't they know that there was a possible threat" and then demand that the HQ be burned at the stake! I guess you won't ever be happy when it's someone else doing the job or calling the commands.
This was/is a long post and I am positive I got some people's blood boiling. GOOD! Now, step back, go smoke a cigarette or whatever else you do to relax and think for a while. Don't let your predetermined judgments come into your thoughts. Think about where you got your information and ask why you should believe THEIR side of the story. Ask yourself about all those other kids? Ask yourself about how you feel when someone else criticizes you "after the fact" and "without all the facts." Pull the whole situation apart little by little and let the blood cool down. I think that if you really think about which side you are on (sending the child back or keeping him here) then you will see that you believe(d) what you wanted to from the media and did not think about how they skewed the facts for "the sake of the story." A great site like this should keep to shooting and leave the politics for the political "wailing walls." ---Thomas

Thomas <>
South tip of , Texas, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 02:11:36 (ZULU) (your host address:

VIRGINIA, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 02:12:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
It is really a bummer that the Duty Roster has become a political forum. The tactical shooting comments, tips, and experiences are getting fewer and fewer....

Lets get back on track......
michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 03:36:22 (ZULU) (your host address:

Has anyone had any experiance with the Sommers Vortex flash hiders sold by Brownells for the Rem 700?

I do a wee bit of night shooting with my .308 PSS and was wondering if they are any good.

Do they have any effect on accuracy/muzzle blast?

I'm not looking for a muzzle brake just a flash hider.

Are there any similar flash hiders out there which can easily be adapted to a Rem 700? (preferably without having to thread the muzzle)

Any ideas? Comments? Costs?


Sniff <>
Auckland, New Zealand - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 05:35:56 (ZULU) (your host address:


Your way off base. Your experiences with the Tex-Mex border patrol have nothing to do with Cubans.

Whether it's fair or not, and wheather you approve of it or not, a Cuban that sets one foot on American soil, is under a totally different set of laws than any other "alien" (especially Mexicans), and has benefits that even native born Americans don't have, so most of your case is void.
It's the "Jimmy Carter" laws, and when they were passed, we were overwhelmed by a flood of "Mariel-istas", all of which got the "Whole banana" when they touched the shore… and since then, every Cuban that hits our shores, is "home!"

Whether a 6 yo can make decisions or not, has nothing to do with anything... the "Carter" laws apply to ALL Cubans, regardless of age.
The laws that apply to Mexicans have nothing to do with this situation... this set of laws is unique, and apply only to Cubans... so your whole "logical argument" is non-applicable.

As to whether we can "trust" the media on gun issues... also a non issue. There is a ton of reports on this issue, leaving a 5 month "paper trail" of court decisions, and comments by the Clinton/Reno bunch, on who's jurisdiction this was, long before there was a "gun issue". It's this 5 month pool of facts that fly in the face of the "raid". In fact, if we were to believe the media, we'd be supporting the raid, as the media have been covering for Clinton/Reno for 7 years.

To compare the service of a custody paper on a house, to the machine gun effort to rob a bank in LA, is ludicrous... by your logic, the 100,000 plus custody papers served each year, should be served on the muzzle of an MP5, "just in case there are armed people inside". What about Traffic stops... they are considered by most officers, as one of the most high risk duties... you want your speeding ticket on the end of an MP5???

As someone else on this site commented... the Clinton/Reno bunch painted themselves into a corner with stupid statements (just like Waco, just like Ruby Ridge)... and when it got down to the line, they had to save face, and did it with a sledge hammer, when a fly swatter would have been over kill.

If you, (and Michael) don't like the politics (which are inseparable from guns), then start an interesting thread... don't sit back on your buns, and wait for the "regulars" to entertain you.
You want tips... go back through the Roster archives. There is enough good stuff there to write a book with.


Pablito <>
USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 10:37:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

I'm looking for the iron sights for my M24,anyone can help me ?
Thanks and regards
G.I.Joe <>
Italy - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 11:04:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
Think we've had our fun with Elian/INS/Reno/Klinton blah-blah-blah.

A little while ago Mista Gooch posted a question regarding the NSWC-.300 Win Mag A-191 load. that is a 190 Sierra BTHP at approx 2900-3000 fps.

Recently D/R posts are stating W-W is the current contractor for this round, is this true? Who has shot it?

I've been playing with the Fed's GM300WM for a little while now and will be putting something out on my results soon.

Last ? , here's the zinger,

Who has conducted a "Live Autopsy" on any of these rounds?

PLEASE Not a rehash of John Yarbors report I gots that.
Pulling bullets, inspecting cases and weighing powder charges?

Mass Spectro / Gas Chromatograph analysis of powder properties for ID would be nice, but not necessary...........

Master Rick,
What are youse guys shooting in .300 WM???


BIG TRIMCUTTING CITY, By-GaWd, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 11:44:24 (ZULU) (your host address:

Bakc from my little trip Spain and Morocco and sorry to report that I failed to infiltrate the Spanish Legion and get the skinny on what they are using for a SWS... but I left a mole behind who has promised to get this info to me or die trying!

Anyone who has an actual hands-on impression of the Dutch V40 grenade, I would appreciate hgearing from you. I have the dry specs, I'm looking for opinions as to handling and effect. Just a little research effort here-- thanks.

Ned goes >BANG!<
Ned <>
xx, MI, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 14:11:20 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thomas: You're right, there's a bunch of politics on the site. But your post, to put it bluntly (please, not trying to be offensive) is either uneducated in the facts of the case, or definately "left of center". Please read the United States Constitution and the Federalist Papers. Then, I feel quite confidently, you will have a slightly different tune ;-) From my little sister's place, you can toss a rock in the Rio, and from White Sands, well, BOA wasn't but a short drive, and my son was born just literally a few miles north of the Chuahua frontier. Just 'cause I lived it doesn't mean I have to agree with it, but LAWS ARE LAWS. Either you follow 1. all of them blindly 2. most all of them on basis of constitution and law 3. none of them (anarchy). Count me square in #2!

Patron 'Lito: Unfortunately I have to agree with you. Not that I don't want to, but our RIGHTS should not have to be a political fight, entirely entwined in the media, but they are. Am I the only one that wonders who would queal if we tried to "interpret" the 1st amendment like the media does the 2nd? As for sitting back and letting the regulars entertain me, well, Sniper-Fu entertained me for quite a while! HHHAA-cha cha cha! :-)))))

PeteR: I just happen to have a full analytical lab sitting around, what is it you need run by GC? If you're trying to fingerprint powders, I imagine that a FTIR might work (assuming you have samples of possible matches). Samples? You got samples?

Entry weapons: MP-5 or M4? Is the M4 bbl length a true 16" or shorter?
Bravo <>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 14:16:21 (ZULU) (your host address:

re No Bull III

A fun, very tough match shot at 500M. It was a beautiful day a Sacramento Valley Shooting Center, bright sun, in the low to mid 70's, winds from calm to about 12 mph from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock. The conditions were exactly the problem, along with the small targets. The conditions were constantly changing, what worked on one shot might not be close on the next.

25 shooters signed up, one no-show, and one mechanical DNF. Out of a possible 30 targets Ed Eckhoff won with 12 shooting a 300 Win Mag. Second went to Ken Jenks with 10, including one hit on a golf ball using a 308 and Federal ammo. Viki Moldenhauer was third with 10, getting six on the third and final string, 308 Federal ammo. Fourth was Dan Schmitz who scored nine targets (6.5-06?)including two golf balls that were knocked off their stand though not hit. Stu Harvey was fifth also with nine targets.

Great match. UnDude, get signed up next time it is a good time.

Good Shooting,

Dee T. <>
Roseville, CA, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 15:18:25 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sac Valley,

Went to the Sac Valley Shooting Center yesterday. What a awsome range. It's fairly close so I will be going a lot more often. It was windy though, but did some good shooting. Concidering being a member, as soon as the money is available. Now that I have my handload that I will use now exclusively, I am going to make a "come-up" chart to laminate. I hope to see some of you there. If I see any snipers out there I'll pop over to say hello.

Semper Fi

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <>
USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 15:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address:

Sniff in NZ,

Regarding flash hiders, I don't know of one that can be mounted and is effective without threading the barrel, but the tactical vent & flash hider that is on available through Nor-Cal Precision is VERY effective. Check out pictures on their website. It is actually much more complex internally that the pictures show. I have one on a rifle that just got built and it also softens up te recoil a bit. Besides the fact that it really works, it is an engineering marvel, very foolproof and finely made. Certainly worth checking out. I am having it put on a .300 Win that is being made for me right now.

I thought that I would post and maybe start a thread instead of sitting on my buns and reading "Lito Country"

Tongue in cheek in San Jose,
Michael <>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 16:30:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

No Bull III - The Sacramento Valley Shooting Center wMichgain host to another fine long range shooting competition. Hats-off to Steve Helsley and all the Mudville Maniacs who contributed to a smooth stress-free operation that allowed competitors complete concentration. The Grand snow capped Sierra were the welcome distraction. Thanks to the NRA for prizes. Thanks for supporting the shooting sports.

If my 401K was worth half the value of the optics represented at the firing line, I’d be one fat puppy. The back of Vicki’s car looked like a Federal Match Ammo warehouse thanks to Harry. HazMat? It was only a 30 shot competition Harry. Drive safely.

Mark your Duty Rosters and start building a gun, have the lawn mowed and start working up a load for the next match. As Shooters, you won’t be sorry....

I had a Blast.

P.S. Dan, rebarrel to 308WIN.

Good shooting,
kenya sheutte <>
Mt. View, CA, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 18:19:18 (ZULU) (your host address:

I have read the reviews on LBT Drag bag & read a few "How to" pieces on making my own. Now, before I buy a LBT, can someone recomend other makers to shop?
As far as trusting the word of the "Any news that fits our views" media- even my snakes will not soil some of those articles! I suppose they have higher standards than most Liberals...
Bill Moore <>
Goodview, VA, USA !!!!!!!! - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 19:44:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
Thomas of SP, I am not mad at you. You ticked me off because I misunderstood what you were tring to say. Simple mistake that happens to us all when we type instead of face to face talks. Hell I pissed Litto off huge a few weejks ago and did not mean to.

On the Miami thing, Thomas, I agree with most of what you have written except that I wonder if we should have raided the place in the first place. Here is my thoughts: We have an unarmed family holding onto a bot until a court decision can be made. They dont want to have the boy go back to Cuba so they are tring to keep the courts from taking him. That is understood. The second thing is the boys father who wants to take him back to Cuba and is fighting in the courts to have him returned. Thats all good. Third we have an administration that wants it all to go away because it is bad politically either way it turns out. Answer make a decision and do it fast. They did but not through the courts, they went the fast easy and what has almost always proved to be the most costly route, use force.

Now I have been on a SWAT Team, a Tactical Team Leader, teacher of tactics and known as a no BS go in and get them guy. With that said I dont undersatnd the use of Machine Guns against people we are sworn to protect. These are not Drug Dealers! These are people who believe to be acting in the childs best interest. My god I did not become a cop to poinbt a weapon at an unarmed fisherman holding a small boy and I would bet the poor SOB that went in there didn't sign on for that. Anyone that has carried a weapon into harms way will tell you that shit happens under pressure and people get killed by accident. That is why we decide what the entry teams will carry. It goes like this: They have a Pitol, we use MP5's or M4's if no overpenetration problem exists. They have body armor we go in with M4's and if an overpenetration problem exists we exacuate the surrounding places. We send in an armed entry team only when we can not get the same results without them. You send in an armed team and hope no one gets hurt. We come through the door and someone does not get down we put them down anyway we have to and do it quick. That is why we dont use the teams all the time, too many people get hurt. I have never been used for a non crime such as the Miami Incident and hope I dont see the day when I work for someone stupid enough to misuse me or my guys in that way. I will Fng quit before I do it!

This whole type of incident is what is making people crazy across this country. It just fuels the fire for the black helo guys. If this had ben a well thought event the local cops would have been envolved.

In my opinion, for what its worth, this should have been handled like this: We drive up like they did, one group holds a safety zone/area, while the second group wals up, no weapons drawn, knocks on the door and tells the people inside they have an order to take custody of the boy. Explain that we need to do this without force and quietly as that will be best for the boy. Tell them that if they resist they will hurt the chances for the boy to stay in the US and let them know you have to do this deed and do not enjoy it. Try and work out an understanding. If that all fails then you can turn it up a notch. If it works no one goes nutts and the boy is not hurt in anyway. No one takes an unneeded chance on an accident. If they tell you to pound salt you bring it up to the level of force needed.

Keep this in mind, we as Law Enforcement are given the authority to use the forse needed to follow through on a court order, but we can only use the minimum force needed to complete that task. If you start at the max you can not back off, you may think you can but you have already shot your you now what. Start at the ncie way and work your way up as needed.

Last a six year old has no idea of where or who he wants to live with. The answer you will get will depend on who last talked to him. Take a 14 year old to have to mental ability to commit a crime, same principal here.

Back to shooting subjects.
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 19:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address:

New subjects? Can't sit back and…. entertainment…. and….

I have had my hands on a Nesika prototype rifle for the past week and ran another through testing yesterday on the range. Nesika is looking more at the "tactical" style shooter on this line of rifles. These are built on the Model K action. We tested two so far. One is a short-barreled light version while the other is a 24" heavy version. They are of course tack-drivers but not ready for primetime yet. A list of modifications has already been sent back to the factory for the next rifle. The list is all,: it would be better if it was like this" type of list.
The only real complaint I have with the rifle is the bolt handle. The handle is long and straight out from the bolt with an oversized knob on it. When I work the action after a shot, my cheek never leaves the stock weld and my index finger works the bolt. The straight bolt handle does not allow my hands to do this (and I have somewhat long fingers). The action is very smooth and locks nicely. I have several digital pictures we took yesterday. They should be up on the next in the next day or two.
Not sure what price range they are looking at but I bet it will be around the current market average. Also, Nesika has donated an action (confirmed) as a prize for our comp and it looks like HS will donate a rifle (unconfirmed at this time). Big prizes are still coming in and we still have a few slots left open. You can see a complete updated list of prizes at

Without the unconfirmed HS rifle, we are already at $16,000 in prizes. Many of which will be given away by raffle style drawings so everybody has a chance.

Thomas <>
South tip of , Texas, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 20:06:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

OK guys, here it is:

How do I determine the "Maximum Effective Range" of a particular rifle cartridge? It is solely determined by the energy? I apologize if this has been answered here before but I couldn't find it.

Any positive feedback would be great.

-Hawk Out
Hawk <>
NH, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 20:32:01 (ZULU) (your host address:

Thomas, thats great news about the new rifles. I have heard nothing but wows about the Nesika Actions. I will be waiting for a full report. On the US Optics Scopes we talked about. Mine are new 2000 models. I hear they changed how they adjust. Mine track very well and are returning to zero everytime, no matter how many times I turn the knobs. I talked with them and they said they had a problem a few years ago but have solved it. Something was apparently binding inside. They will fix for free any scope that has a problem. I know someone that bought one os US OIptics Scopes used and latter found it was sold broken to him. He called US Optics and they fixed it for free. That is good customer service! They now have some models stocked so you dont have to wait a year anymore. I cant say anything but good about US Optics. After testing most brands of scopes I can tell you a whole lot of good stuff is out there. On your match I wish I could attend but I have burned up too much vacation already this year. Sounds like something I would love to do. Plus all those prizes for me not to be drawn for.LOL

On TBA, I have seen some of the rifles shoot and they all shot well. Work looked great. I can not imagine a guy with as good of rep as Lau not making you happy. Send the rifle back and give him a chance.

Rifles, in general, Many great smiths are out there. NorCal, George Gardner, Chandler, McBros and H.S.Precision. Buy what makes you happy and shoot the heck out of it! Bench Racing Rifles is a sin!
MikeMiller <>
Calif, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 21:22:12 (ZULU) (your host address:

Woops!!!!!!!!!!! If one of you guys wants to kill my last post... please do I got an html tag wrong **BLUSH**


Well it sure has been a long first quarter... I haven't been posting much, but I still read SniperCountry (Elian Country) daily. As always thanks to Marius et al and Ken for keeping this thing going so smoothly. I like the changes and the faster server too Ken!

Just finished doing a few web trends things for Mike Miller of Tactical Intervention Specialists Things have gone really well... We're about 1 week away from our 50 THOUSANDTH visitor to his main page - CONGRATULATIONS MIKE! Not bad for such a specialty site!

I noted in the online trends report that visits to the New Mexico Tactical Course Page were not as high as I expected. With only a month or so before the Sniper Course I'm admittedly surprised... Folks this sounds like a great opportunity! Mike has instructed me and he is a good and patient teacher... you really owe it to yourself to check this class out. In addition there will be several other instructors: James Jarrett and two Special Forces Instructors. If I could go I'd be there in a heartbeat. Click the above link for details.

I also still am maintaining the site of another one of the guys that posts here regularly Jerry Rice of Nor Cal Precision. It pleases me to no end that I finally am going to be getitng one of his works of art. I can not wait! Interestingly: I spent a lot of time looking for an action for him to build my new rifle on and I am really astounded to find how badly Rem 700 actions have dried up... Also whats the crap with all the inexpensive 700s having the TRASHY looking cheap scroll work on them?? Ugh....

Mike how long till your scope tests are done? I wana top this thing off with some really rugged glass. :-)

Not tactical related but:
A few months ago I got an M1 Garand from the The CMP... They have quite a good program IMHO. Sadly though the CMP is going to be raising prices by 100 bucks in about a month... if you ever wanted a surplus Garand now is the time people! I put togehter a site about the M1 Garand for newbies which explains my experience with the CMP program and other stuff as well. Check it out if you like. The M1 garand: An American Companion In Three Wars.

Till next time!
Charles aka JT <>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 22:18:48 (ZULU) (your host address:

Elian Gonzo,

Everybody needs to check out the recent episode of South Park. It is just as silly as this whole mess. Plus, there is the great Janet Reno rappelling from a helicopter in a pink Easter bunny costume to assault the house and rescue the children. These guys rule.
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol(communist).com>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 22:37:57 (ZULU) (your host address:

I am a police officer in the Dallas area. I am looking for ANY FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE regarding the Remington "Tactical Light" .308 rifle as apposed to Remington's 700DM .308. I am interested in accuracy differences due to barrel length and any problems with the weapon being lighter than the 700dm. If you have any info with regards to Leupold's Vari-XIII's vs Springfield's Govt scope, I would be interested in that also. THANKS !
Keith <>
Dallas, Tx, USA - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 23:11:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
hello. can anyone give advice on the cias stock package from accuracy intternational?
robert johansen <>
oslo, norway - Sunday, April 30, 2000 at 23:23:39 (ZULU) (your host address: