Sniper Country Duty Roster

March 2006

Looks like the contest voting is closed! :(

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, USofA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 00:14:35 (ZULU)

>>>>Looks like the contest voting is closed! :(<<<<

The counters are still adding.

I believe it doesn't end until midnite...tonight.

The guy currently in the lead is taking off like he was cannon-shot.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 00:23:58 (ZULU)

FAT LADY HASN'T SUNG YET FOLKS!!!!!!

"All entries are in, the finalists have been selected by SWFA, and it's time for you to help select the winner! All finalists are guaranteed one of the thirty-two prizes. Places 1-32 will be determined by the amount of votes received per finalist. Please vote only once."

*********Voting ends Wednesday, March 01, 2006 at midnight**********

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 00:49:46 (ZULU)

Folks Joe is down in 3rd by almost 300 votes Re-post to any site you can and lets get Joe BACK IN FIRST!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 01:12:59 (ZULU)

You can vote 5 times very quickly if you erase your cookies, pull out of the site and jump back in.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 01:17:55 (ZULU)

My vote(s) is in!!! Go Boris!!

Re: compact europtics. So far as I know, the Swarovski's are the only really small optics rated as "waterproof". the rest (Zeiss, Lieca, Stiener) are "water resistant"...don't know if IOR makes a really compact, or if they do, if its "proof" or "resistant". Particuarly with Pocket binos that area actually carried in a (warm, sweaty) pocket and pulled out into cold air, this may be a consideration.

Steve

Steve
Butte, MT, USofA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 01:24:06 (ZULU)

Rifle optics:

Does anyone have experience with the ATN line of optics? They seem to have some intersting conceps.

To all my fellow Marines.... Semper Fi! Good hunting! God gave us freedom and the Corps ensures we keep it, with a lot of help from the Second Amendment!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 01:55:26 (ZULU)

Rob,

I got banned too! Oh well.not the first place I have been banned from lately! LOL Although..I must say..it is a higher classed site than the last place I was banned from.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 02:06:43 (ZULU)

Steve: For that reason alone I'd take the Swaros. My Zeiss minis have disappointed me more than once.

Duman: 8X30 or so would be a great choice. My Swaros are something like that. Or check out the 8X20 Swaros at this link. They are closing them out for only $540. Buy them. Hurry.

CDC'
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 02:15:21 (ZULU)

CDC',

Which link were you referring to?

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 02:18:37 (ZULU)

I was just seeing if you were on your toes. This is a link to Cabella's. They seldom are the cheapest.

CDC'
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 02:25:40 (ZULU)

CDC',

Thanks! Some of the Cabela's prices are better than SWFA.

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 02:38:20 (ZULU)

Re: Indoor Range / A better bullet trap?

Thanks for the thoughts on my pipe dream. I haven't dropped the idea yet. I looked at the wet snail shell type bullet trap that several of you have mentioned. I agree that eliminating airborne lead from bullet frag is a must but this thing goes for 10s of thousands (not gonna happen). Anyone have any hands on experience with a backstop called a GranTrap? It sounds like a much more affordable low tech alternative to the snail shell that could pretty easily be "reversed engineered". It works like a sand berm on an outdoor range but its clean enough to use indoors (no dust and easier to recover bullets) Its basically a sheet of steel set on an angle behind the target area with a thick pile of shredded tires placed on top and in front of it. As long as the rubber is deep enough for a particular bullet you don't have a lead problem.

I haven't cracked a book on the ventalation issue yet but it sounds like that could be the show stopper.

Paul Martoccia
NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 02:41:12 (ZULU)

Bad Karma - The best they could do is drop the penetrator as it is impossible to get the same CG from round to round and the round just over penetrates with that piece of metal. Of course, what I find interesting is that we use rounds in combat that usually only wounds instead of a killer round due to "humanitarian" reasons. I guess it is better to woound so he can come back and make the war last longer. Of course the hollow point is not banned by the Conventions, that is the "lawyers'" interpretation.

Also agree with converstaions with libs, they can be a hoot when they go bonkers with emotion but have nothing of intelligence to say back. :)

Lindy is correct on the lead from the primers and it is part of the crap that spews out of the muzzle with each shot. It also gets on your hands and you guys REALLY need to wash your hands good before eating, drinking, or sucking your thumb, after a stint on the range. Also do not load brass up in your hat and then put it on after dumping the brass. The heat and sweat really opens the pores to the lead residue. This is DAM important crap for you young ladies of child bearing ages that love to shoot.

Pat - Mirage actually disappears at 13 to 15 mph. If you loose it at 8mph then the sun may be coming through the thin part of the mirage and it takes really good glass to see it. Watch for it and always remember to go right back to glass as soon as you fire to check mirage for a change. If it changed then you know your shot is gong to be up or doenw wind depending on whether it sped up or sluffed. If the mirage is the same and you call the shot clean then you have a good indicator of your wind call based on shot placement. Another technique I use on students is to aim center with no wind correction. I have the observer call the wind and estimate the mil hold he would have used. Once the shot is fired and the target is marked in the pits. I have the observer measure in mils from center to mpi of the group. If he would have called 1 mil and the distance is 1 mil then his call is good. If it more or less then he has a ready reference for changeing his wind call and adapting it to what is really happening.

CDC - I agree and right now the fanatics have the average muslim scared. We need to hold the line and make sure that the fanatics understand that we will not cut and run. Or as one movie said, "go quietly in the night".

Steve - That is an amazing video and I doubt that she will live the week out. They do not take kindly to heretics and less kindly to women that call out a man, AND is a heretic.

Paul - The ventilation system will kill you. Another alternative to airborne lead dust is the Duelatron rubber walls. the round passes through the rubber block and is captured between the rubber and the steel backing. Cost will still be up there but I think you could come up with a better solution with that. Watch out for sand or metal and sand traps, they creat hot spots for the lead and you will start to get rick'o' "crap!" shays after while. :(

Well enough for now.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 02:59:10 (ZULU)

Rick

I've seen the rubber block type bullet traps your talking about. Someone told me that since you can't recover the bullets from inside the blocks, they have to be disposed of as hazardous materials once they are shot up. Do you have any idea on the expected lifespan on these things?

Paul Martoccia
NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 03:20:15 (ZULU)

Sarge, I bumped your post on "that other site" a couple times, it's starting to take off.

Keep voting guys!!!! 2.5 hours left!!!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 03:21:39 (ZULU)

Rick,

I am concidering getting into bullet swaging. One of the "fillers" is tungsten powder.I plan to get the RF kit from Corbin when I actually get the monet together.

I really think the penetrator is a bad idea. I bought some SS109 stuff and it was marginally better than the M193 stuff. As we well know the ammo used in WWII was either ball, AP. incindiary, or tracer. I think they (bean counters) should step aside and issue 62-70gt FMJs and a dedicated AP round. In my experience (experimenting) the 5.56 isn't the best against hard targets anyway. If the targer (badies) are wearing body armor, it won't be to the quality that we have. Therefore if a FMJ comes a knockking it will make a real mess of you (them). All the hoopla regarding a new round ie the 6.5s and the 6.8 is a step backwards in my humble opinion. If they really want to go that rout do a AR10 in .260 or better yet 7.62 NATO. I think part of the inaccuracy issue is due to differing metals accelerated and the tip settles in the bullet, as it is fired.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 03:24:57 (ZULU)

Gentlemwn,

Anyone ever try to mount a base on a Steyr SSG? SSGs use propriatay (sp?) rings which fit into slot cut into the reciever. Since the rings set up for this border on the spendy, I am considering having it drilled and taped and mounting a rail type base so If I have a change of heart on the optics on it, easier to switch up. Haven't done a cost/benefit analysis, but at first blush this looks like it may be cheaper. Additionally, anyone have a source for SSG 30mm rings?

Glock country: Was forced to give up model 36 S&W for backup for Model

27 Glock. The smith snubbie gave me a lot of years of good service, but was never a pleasnt gun to shoot with +P loads. Got to admit, baby Glock much more pleasant to shoot, holds twice the rounds, but if something goes wrong, when you pull the trigger the cylinder does not rotate to another cartridge.

Knife Country: Was given a Bokker hunting knife. Seems nice and has a nice edge. Anybody have much experience with them?

Thanks

Pat2
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 03:33:25 (ZULU)

Paul - Don't use the blocks, use the sheets. The rubber passes the bullet through to a metal backing and there the bullet breaks up and falls between the rubber and the metal. Once the rubber is shot to hell and gone they come in and recover the lead and put in new sheets of rubber. From what I saw the sheets, which are about two inches thick, are self healing and would take a butt load of shots before any real damage was done. I have not used this technology so can only quote what I have been told nad what I saw with examples. We are getting another block technology on our ranges later and I will have a better feel for the blocks later on.

Bad Karma - Agree with the 5.56 and M4. good system and no real need to change caliber, just the bullet. The tungsten powder should hold better as the outer layer of lead melts and is liquid during part of the flight. Have never worked with that formula though so have zero experience in the technology.

Pat2 - Take care in how much you heat up the barrel on that SSG. You could experience barrel droop with the inherent bullet drift. :(

Going to bed now, must sleep. First day on the unknown distance range for the youngens tomorrow. :)

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 03:36:28 (ZULU)

Bad Karma,

"...when I actually get the monet together." Isn't that sometime just before you're "baroque"?

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 03:39:57 (ZULU)

Need some help

Boris is 600 votes behind and the top spot is still getting voted

bomac
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 03:40:33 (ZULU)

I have been (temporarily) banned as well.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 03:53:25 (ZULU)

To anybody who came in late: Click my name and vote for Joseph Mahon. Then go to any site you frequent, post the link and tell them to vote for Joseph Mahon. Spam your friends and family with the link. Vote, wait ten minutes and vote again.

CDC'
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 04:12:07 (ZULU)

Duman,

Lost me on the mone thing. I went to public school. Baroque?

5.56mm When I get my hands on some more M855 I am going to disect a few and mic the jackets. I am guessing they are thicker than usual.A thicker jacket will contribute to inaccuracy depending on how consistantcy and concentricity of it. I pulled and weightd some Israeli M193 ball ammo and was shocked. It weighted exactly 55.1 gr each. I dismantled 100 rounds. Some may ask why? Well I dropped 100 55gr balistic tips on them.

Has anyone tried the Winchester 64gr power points? They seem to be a nice cheap way to shoot. I have about 500 or so I have yet to load. I was going to use them in my .220 Swift. As far as FMJs go I can only find Speer 62gr FMJ/BTs. They seem affordable enough. I should probably pick some up.

75gr A-Maxs. I shot a squirrel at Sac Valley around August last year with one at 80m or so and it turned it inside out and it few 30 feet into the air! I have 2 witnesses to this. I am glad there was no one with kids the next range over since it flew well above the berm for all to see. These little pills are NASTY! I wish they could be seated to magazine length. I'm seating them about .002 off the lands.They will knock down the rams at 500m too.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 04:17:15 (ZULU)

Uh, I've been out for a while...4+ years....whats the skinny on the voting.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 04:19:19 (ZULU)

Bad Karma: Click CDC' on the bottom left of this post then vote for Joseph Mahon. Hurry.

CDC'
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 04:45:58 (ZULU)

Duman, you get the "boo-hiss" award for today. HA! Yeah, I liked that.

You folks talk about getting banned like it's a bad thing. Today I got banned at home, banned at the university, banned at work, banned at the public library, and instructed 57 other people on how to get banned and not have a bad day. Er, that they would have a bad day if they didn't get banned, and I figured it out. Second time I've run this cycle, a ban isn't permanent..... Got the low-down from some IS technical types, there's no real way around it.

Don't get me wrong, I want Patron Joe to win. It just irks me that tat-boy gets a boost. Something is DEFINATELY fishy there. I can see the big draw for Joe, I can see the big draw for the fox chasing the hound. The rest? Eh..... tat-boy?! HA! Maybe that place has a target market (GRIN) of folks that I shouldn't be making statements about without having walked a mile in their exercise yard.

Patron Joe, your boy doesn't sound like a boy. Nor a teenager. Sounds like, uh, you.

And for those of you that haven't heard anything out of me for a while, there's a reason. I got a new box, so I've been out of the loop for a bit. That changed today, 'cause I think I've actually started getting things going. After being told repeatedly "if this were my box at home, I'd have put a few rounds in it by now" often enough, they saw the light, and it wasn't a muzzle flash.

Bino country: I haven't tried these yet (no priority dough for binos now), but have every intention of doing so. Steiner 8X30 binos. Israeli army surplus, "like new" with minor blemishes (what does that mean?!) for $129.95 plus shipping. If you don't mind the same thing with black dust spots on the graticule, those go for $89.95. Of course, I have no idea if that means they've got the amber anti-laser lens coating or not. Why don't one of you "well off" gentlemen pick up a pair, and warn me if they're bad before I spend my money. That is, assuming I'll ever have enough money to work that far down on my priority list. Elsewise, I'll go with my Plan B of trying to pick up a decent pair from a surplus house outside one of the large back-east posts, some day.

As an aside, my binos are 7X30s, and I have a bit of difficulty using the graticule unless I've got something solid to rest on. I'm hoping that some better quality 8X30s will be as easy to use, but won't know without trying. My guess is that I'd prefer some 6X30s for ranging use, as the wiggle probably wouldn't be as noticable. The reason I like the 30s? Weight. Well, weight and size. For general use though (non-rangefinding), my 7s seem to be a nice balance, and I'm hoping the 8s are too.

Sorry for the hit-and-run, life has been fast lately, and ain't slowing down much now.

Bravo
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 04:46:41 (ZULU)

CDC,

Mission accomplished! :)

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 04:52:15 (ZULU)

All,

Dig the pics at SFWA. I'd put one on myself, however I live in the Peoples Republic of California and don't want my face associated with any of my babies (firearms). Big Brother Lockliar may be watching....

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 05:03:14 (ZULU)

5.56 M855 does fine vs monobloc armour steel, that was the target it was designed for. It'll punch targets that simply splatter 7.62 ball. That being hardened steel primarily, which we don't encounter in Iraq or A-stan unless it's a blue v blue fire incident. If you want to understand the dynamics of armour and hard material penetration you have to look to the tanker guys (CDAT's), they know all about it. Velocity will increase penetration up to a point (why 220 swift 40gn V-max scars my steel targets that are 308 proofed), but you need to look at hardened penetrators vs armour. Which really isn't the purview of the combat rifle or carbine, that's what GPMG's and anti tank weapons are for.

While we're discussing it, I hate the HEDP rds for the 40mm too, they should be straight fragmentation, preferably using preformed fragments.(steel or heavy metal(DU or tungsten) balls) The procurment folks were so worried about the BMP series IFV they developed HEDP 40mm in the late 1970's/early 80's, the same fuckers then "consolidated" all 40mm combat ammo down to only HEDP, which is rather marginal at creating fragments. Well, guess what, the only BMP's in Iraq are burned out hulks that litter the landscape and those the new Iraqi Army got donated from Bulgaria. And we're burning lots of 40mm at folks in ditches and defilade and searching fragments would be real nice to have. Again, use real God damned anti-tank weapons against armoured vehicles, we have them available now that the Red hordes aren't going to charge across the Fulda Gap, and even if they did, they can have Western Europe these days. Same issue as the M855, wrong stuff for the job. It wouldn't bother me so much if it were DS/DS or Somalia, but it's been almost 20 years since the USSR went to Hell and were still procuring shit to fight the Red horde. Pretty damned stupid, no?

Anyways, M855 and all other nonbonded 5.56 rds suck ass when it comes to penetrating intermediate barriers, because the projectile fragments after the first struck object and the decreased mass isn't able to penetrate reliably and cause rapid incapacitation. Like what you want vs SVBIED's or crazy MF's in vehicles in general. 77gn and 75gn OTM's are good, work better vs the open torso shots, still appears to be marginal vs barriers. Problem is that we don't have nearly enough of it to go around and it's expensive, comparatively speaking. (although one SGLI payout ,$400k, is easily enough to outfit an entire Bn for a year, about a million rds IMO) As of Dec 15, 2005, the USMC had less than 600k rds of Mk 262 in Iraq, and less than 2.9mil rds in world wide inventory as compared with over 285mil rds of M855. Figure roughly 1 mil rds for an infantry bn to complete a 7 month tour, that's 1000rds per man, or roughly 4 basic loads. You'd probably want to weight that ammo more heavily towards the line grunts so 1250rds per man per year, figure.

Anyhow, 7.62 breaks up too, especially the SMK's, but it has over twice the mass starting off, so it does better at the dead savage end. There is no free lunch, the only way to improve this type of performance is more bullet mass, aside from bonded core bullets, which are not an option. And it would be nice if you could do it in a FMJ profile so the occasional idiot JAG type didn't cause fights that didn't need to be fought. Not to mention that FMJ's are cheaper to make also, which is something to consider, if only to buy more training ammo. The funny thing is that there was a 70gn FMJ bullet submitted for testing from some Euro company in the late 60's or early 70's and it never got any traction and faded away. If this would have been procured instead of M855(US spec SS109), then we likely wouldn't be hearing the same outcry to such an extent. Oh, it'd still be there, but until you have 40mm performance in something that weighes 4lbs and has a string straight trajectory to 2000m, you're still going to get bitching. Shit, the REMF's and peacenik, I-hate-America asshats will start bitching that you're killing them too dead or something.

Anyhow that's the dynamics of it. I think you're going to see more and more push for this issue to be resolved, especially with more and more short barreled entry type stuff out there. That isn't going away and telling guys to use longer barrels isn't a solution. The proper role of the assault rifle(which is really a carbine) is 0-300m, if you get more than that, great, but we're not going to sacrifice the primary role in favor of increasing the 5% performance. There's DM's for long'ish shots and more importantly there's God damned supporting arms.

I don't GAS about all the long range performance service rifle crap until the US .mil gets it's head out of its ass on the supporting arms picture. The only damned reason that you have the boy rifle being asked to do the man's job of long range performance is because you have asshat leaders who are fucking over their troops on the supporting arms fight. Period, there's no other way to say it. Whether that's Clintoon shitting on the Rangers in Mog WRT AC-130's and tanks or Rumsfeld fucking over the Airbourne at LZ Anaconda with no arty in A-stan or some nameless REMF mincing about with me and mine in Iraq WRT artillery, it's utter crap. Does anyone else wonder why we have increasing pushed the bulk of the .mils firepower to supporting arms agencies at the same time we increasingly deny use of those agencies? If I were more prone to tinfoil hats stupidity I'd say it was control freakism run amok. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 05:05:29 (ZULU)

Ken,

Great post! This reminds me of Kuwait 1991 when Bush 41 stopped is from finishing them off on the Basrah HWY. We had a real POS by the name of 1st Sgt. Bernard, who micro managed the company to near revolt. Different story I will only relate if asked. We had our M855 replaced with M193 ball, I explained in an earlier post.I wish the command over there would get with it and and sream louder! I read in the Nov/Dec. 05 issue of Handgunner a guy who was with a unit over there and he claimed to have brought over H.P.s with him. I'll dig out the mag. it was in the Ayoob files.Appearantly "Bret" as he calls him was a fed. Anyway that is one example.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 05:43:19 (ZULU)

USMC has no M193 in any meaningful numbers. There's probably some in ASP's in Iraq that was inheirited from Army units, but that's it. You can find all sorts of weird shit over there. I had two cans of 1961 WRA 7.62 ball on stripper clips sitting on my pallet in the ASP, where it came from God only knows. We got it from 2/2, who assuredly got it from the 101st guys they relieved, and it went to the 256 and 48 Bde guys who relieved us in turn. We had plenty of M118LR(admittedly of four different lots), so it just sat there.

There's all sorts of stuff in use in Iraq, from 9mm JHP's to 223 Nosler Ballistic Tips and everything in between. I had a case of Mk 262 mailed to me from the home front, along with 12ga Brenneke slugs for the shotguns. If you've got time to be an anal retentive asshole about checking ammo(other then that the troops have enough), you really need to be better employed doing something useful. There is an increasing amount of stupid shit(TM) going on in Iraq, especially the big bases like BIAP, Anaconda and the like, where there are too many chiefs and not enough work for them. They're doing silly crap like having MP's issue tickets for speeding and generally getting into a rock painting CONUS garrison mode. We honestly need to bring those idiots home, there's NO reason they should be making hazardous duty pay, getting the combat zone tax exclusion and the like. I don't have real numbers on how many troops in Iraq are actually doing real combat work, but I'd guess less than 50% of the total, another 20% or so are doing needed support stuff, and at least 10% are utterly useless, so better than 15K people, disproportionatly weighted in the upper paygrades, I'm sure. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 06:46:27 (ZULU)

WELL if SWFA has it right this time JOE/BORIS WINS!!!! By less that 100 votes BUT AGAIN IF THEY HAVE IT RIGHT....WE DID IT HE WON!!!

Congradulations JOE/BORIS!!!

No one deserves it more!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 06:50:43 (ZULU)

Way to go Joe,

We had the Canadian Voting team getting banned up here tonight, but it is definitely worth it.

Blessings all.

Sean.

Sean Thomas
Winterpeg, Manitobachuk, Canada a a a - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 08:19:31 (ZULU)

Go Army !!!!!!!!!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, Us of A - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 11:15:18 (ZULU)

Whaaa? Here I thought this whole thing was over already...and the voting kept going...

They'll figure out something at SWFA, and we can get down to a riffle-raffle around here. Maybe raise some cash for amerciansnipers.org along with some operating funds for our pub...any of those top prizes are a heck of a kick start to a raffle!

Seems my last post got zapped in the ether.

Summer is back....it got hot one day last week. One day, cold and rainy---next---summer. I do love the winter weather in these parts. It is bearable. Now I will pass final judgement on ACU vs. DCU for literal "coolness" factor. Heheh. So far, ACUs seem to not breathe near as good...but then, I am aclimating to this sudden change in temps too. I'd probably sweat in shorts and a tee...

Things are also busy here. My last days in this corner and all hell breaks loose. Figures. I can catch up on sleep when I get up north.

Boris
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 12:21:50 (ZULU)

Way to go Joe!!!

Nice to see the good guy's win.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 12:49:05 (ZULU)

Outstanding Boris,

Great to see the good guys win for a change.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 14:09:46 (ZULU)

Joe,

Congratulations. I got banned twice, but managed to vote a couple of times last night. Still think you should keep Geovids. You have more than earned them.

HDR
OK, - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 17:21:10 (ZULU)

Just got off phone with SWFA. Joe won. They where impressed by his saying he will donate the Leica. Damm is there anything better than a man like Joe?

I am all in for a Raffle. I will donate:

Ten slings (winners choices)and

Ten Trigger Defenders

I bet we can get SWFA to throw something else in. If you guys want I will ask.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 17:52:24 (ZULU)

Mike: Tell them that the board would appreciate something usefull for Joe.

CDC'
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 18:02:59 (ZULU)

Boris,

Congratulations. Now be a good little soldier and KEEP THE @#$*^&%$*@# STUFF !!!!!!!!!!

Hey .......... whaddya say we have a raffle for all that stuff, then ......(John Belushi raised eyebrow look)....... pick Joe's ticket ?!? Yeah .... yeah, that's it!

Hehehehehehehehe ....... ;8-p

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 22:19:16 (ZULU)

Congrats Major, all that voting paid off. HOO AH!

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 22:58:45 (ZULU)

Question for Mike Miller;

A while back you mentioned that you had an ABS carbon barreled AR-10T but that you hadn't had a chance to evaluate it yet. I was wondering if you'd had the chance to shoot it much yet and, if so, if you could share your opinion on its performance with us.

Thanks

Congratulations to Joe on the contest. Sometimes the good guys do finish first.

Steve in Tampa
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 23:06:26 (ZULU)

SSG scope mounts- Brownells lists B-Square Steyr steel rings retail for about $45 US is several flavors. Big problem with creating a rail for the SSG would be machining the matching radius in the bottom of the rail. If'n I remembers rightly, the SSG is a tube type receiver, so only one radius the whole length of the rail.

WR Moore
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 00:19:06 (ZULU)

Bad Karma asked about 64g Winchester Power Points

I've reloaded them and shot them. Ok accuracy, but nothing wonderful. Good balanced design for terminal performance in a soft point. Marty Fackler speaks well of the design. I understand CHP uses it as issue in a .223 Rem factory loading and has been satisfied with the terminal ballistics.

If you want a nice .224 bullet that can be purchased in bulk, give the Rem 55g PLHP a spin. Built-up very heavy plated lead core projectile w/cannelure, excellent accuracy. Apparently because of the plated construction, tends to hold together a bit better than a conventional separate jacket design. I've reloaded and shot a bunch of those too. Does surprisingly well even in fast twist barrels.

Neither of the above would normally be considered Hague Convention compliant.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 02:47:02 (ZULU)

Steve in Tampa: re. ABS barrel and semiauto 308's... I have a DPMS LR308 that I installed an ABS 20" barrel...nothing so far but good things. Pretty consistently +/- 1/2MOA w/Nosler or Sierra 168 MK at 2600fps... and took maybe 3# off the weight. I mainly did it for the weight.

It is chambered real tight so I'm having my gunsmith check the headspace. It functions fine so far, but it feels like a bit of fouling in the chamber and it could be problematic and getting a loaded (to mag.length) cartridge out of the chamber is a bit of a chore. Now that I know it works properly, I'm also having a cap made for the threads on the end of the barrel. (to protect 'em and preserve them for when the supressor is on the ticket).

They are a bit spendy, but accuracy (Mike Rock 5R barrel) is right up there, and 10-rounds semirapid fire (like one round/second) at a 24" square plate at 500 yds results in a hit every time and a barely warm barrel.

So far, works as advertised!

Steve in Butte

Steve
Butte, MT, USofA - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 02:47:45 (ZULU)

I'm glad we were able to get Boris over the top and also think he should keep the 'goodies.'

I also think we should have a Riffle raffle...'

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 03:44:46 (ZULU)

Undude: I checked the Tactical Intervention site but got no information on the "Trigger Defender". Tell me about it. Right here would be fine. If it is a further development of the idea that was being kicked around a few years ago, many of us would be interested.

For those of you who came in late, Mike's slings are the way to go for sniper rifles. Click my name.

CDC'
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 05:13:39 (ZULU)

Rod,

I have a bunch of those 55gr Rem HPs you're refering to. I am using them in the .220 swift and my .22 Hornet. I haven't used them in the AR yet. I have 2 barrels, a 1/9 and a 1/7. The 1/9 has never been fired.

Has any one tried the Nosler 77gr HPBT? They are cheaper than the Sierras. I have had mixed results with the Nosler 168s vs the Sierra. Nosler claims they are interchangable. I have found that the Nosler likes H4895 over Varget. I am a big Varget fan.

I am aslo concidering my custom .416 Rem for a precision role. It's a Weatherby MK V with a 26" Douglas premium barrel, KDF break and a kevlar stock. It weighs about 8 pounds with a 1.5-8 Vari X 3. I know 8 pounds. It also has a mucury decelerator in it. I can shoot 50 rounds with ease off the bench, really.

The reason I am concidering it is I have a bunch of Barnes 350gr X bullets that match the 168 gr >308 load I used to use in trajectory. I am REALLY interested in the 400gr VLD bullet that Barrett is using. Who Makes that bullet? BL(C)2 works well in it. Even the 400gr Hornady FMJRN "crowd pleasers" as I call em don't beat me up.

I am pretty recoil seasoned, My .505 Gibbs hurts after 10 rounds or so, iut weighs about 9 1/2 pounds. No break and a skimpy recoil pad on a P17 action. I know blah blah blah.

Sac Valley is close enough to make experimenting fun again

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 05:22:50 (ZULU)

Gents: Thanks for the thoughts. But youz guys may not understand just how strongly I feel about this place and the good folks who come here (both lurkers and regulars alike). Last tour--the "long one," was one such example. Who gave Peanut a birthday and christmas (and my other three kids as well) to remeber? Anomymous hawgs--that is who! Crimney, someone from here even drove by and decorated our mailbox with a zillion balloons. Don't even need to mention the hospital thing---you all know what you did for me then...nothing I do know can ever match the generosity in any one of the hearts that makes up this roster. Besides, I have an adequate range finder and decent glass already! Heheh. The 'vids will be up for grabs at our hosts' discretion...

Ken...email me and I'll put you in touch with the wife. I think you still have our phone number--if so, give her a call. SWFA has her addy now for shipping. She will trans-ship to your specs. She's under orders...:))

My proposal is this: The next raffle raises cash for SC as usual, with whatever split is feasible going to Americansnipers.org.

I wouldn't mind seeing a legal defense fund for Lito, either! But that is beyond my legal knowledge....and Paul might object to that as much as i object to keeping something everyone here worked to get.

If there is any possible tax deduction from this, those proceeds go dollar for dollar go to Children's Miracle Network, if that can be swung legally--heheh. I'm funding them significantly thru CFC already...so if that is a bridge too far, at least the snipers get something. That is the important thing here.

It could be a "three-fer" with the right paperwork.

Bravo: I sound like Blake? I gotta work on that...I must sound goofy. Heheh. He may sound like me---but our looks are the real give-away. He is my human clone experiment. Even I notice the similarilty there. Edited to add: I am damn lucky with this kid. Any father of a teen will bitch about the little things--it is inherent to the task of raising one. But, all joking aside, I am damned proud of this boy. He is twice the man I was at the same age. My perspective for comparison is me--and he wins "good kid" marks across the course. That said, i reserve the right to stay knee deep in his ass until he enlists or enrolls. Wishful thinking on college...he's sold on the Army and now. He's accelerated himself this year in school---could be he graduates early...

wanna feel old? Serve in the same army as your son! The thought scares the hell out of me...

Lito: Keep up the fight, mang. Little clones make life worthwhile, as you well know...he needs you; and we all know that. Give serious thought to a LDF; I'd kick in not so much for you---but for fatherhood in general. Males get a bum rap in "family court." I'd give my last dime to undo that....one "dad" at a time!

Boris
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 08:12:56 (ZULU)

Bad karma--email off the roster inbound, no attach. Mea Culpa.

Undude: Cool!

Boris
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 08:20:43 (ZULU)

Gents,

Late night. Just got done reading John Feamster's "Black Magic" A great read about the evolution of the mouse gun and building it to be competitive. Great read and a must have if your interested in the M-16/AR-15 and it's variants. Even discussed the .308 Armalight and Knight's Armament rifles.

CDC, thanks for the great links to what's really happening overseas.Guess we just have to average it all out against the news media reporting for an "average" on the situation. I'd go off on a tangent here, but would be preaching to the choir.

Bino's: spendy, but worth it, at times. Buy the best you can afford(same with scopes). Sometimes good optics are available for reasonable costs. Personally, I'm a "one man band" and like to save weight were possible. For me the Pentax Lightweight 6X seems to work best in our country. Have used up to 10 power, but have learned to trade magnification for clarity in the more reasonably price bino's. High dollar stuff gives you both.

Bad Kharma, welcome back. You mentioned the P.I. Yup, we probably ate dog, cat, monkey, and god knows what else. Didn't care as long as we could wash it down with the local ale! Hard to believe that was almost 35 years ago for me. Heck, DS/DS was 15 years ago. Seems like just yesterday that I was that bright shiny BN XO...;-)

No wonder all the Marines look like "kids".

Primer pocket Swaging. Believe this causes more damage than it helps. OK for general purpose ammo, but not for match or accuracy use. The Sinclair Primer Pocket Uniformer is the way to go and it allows for you to clean the primer pocker between loadings. A quick way to remove the crimp, in cases, is to use a neck de-burring tool. Insert in primer pocket and give it a couple twists. Viola! Crimp gone.

Issue ammo and gear. We can argue all we want about what is "best", but the reality is that we make do with what we are given. Then scrounge, beg, borrow, and steal what we can to help accomplish the mission. There will always be marginal gear or lack there of...

Hell, we knew about the bad Beretta mags in DS/DS. You think anything was done to rectify the problem. NO, our lads still have shitty magazines. Thanks to the governments bean counters/lowest bidders.

.338 vs .416: Sorry, can't go the .408 Barrett or .416 Remington route. Same reason as stated before. If you've got to go to a .40 cal you may as well go to a .50. The .338 is already in the system, is being developed, and is here to stay. 'Nuff said.

Time to hit the hay whilest I'm still semi-lucid.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 08:30:42 (ZULU)

CDC

Listened to an interview on a local radio station yesterday.The gentelman being interviewed was DR. Janusz Subczynski, He grew up in Germany when Hitler was in power and has wrote a book titled In The Shadow Of Satan His book discribes exactly what your talking about. I ordered it, and it's available at Amazon.com FWIW

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 11:28:04 (ZULU)

Steve in Butte,

Thanks for the imput. I'm looking to save weight as well as overcome the tendency of the stock 10T barrel to start shifting POI as it warms up. I'm not talking about what I would consider rapid fire, either. Firing slowly, one to two rounds per minute, the shots start walking across the target after 5-10 rounds.

I know that a good barrel will fix the problem but I'd like the lighter weight along with a less nose heavy balance. One last question; are you running a stock length gas system or was the gas port relocated and / or resized?

Thanks

Steve in Tampa
Tampa Bay, FL , USA - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 11:53:41 (ZULU)

Whoever blew up the mosque is trying to jump-start a civil war in Iraq by using the old Reichstag fire/Kristallnacht trick.

The Mudville Gazette has a good report. Click my name. Events have developed since. More later.

CDC'
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 16:22:54 (ZULU)

Litto Defense Fund. Tell me where to send 100.00. That old F'r has given me 10000's worth of advice so would not hesitate to help.

CDC, the Trigger Defender is not on site yet. I only had 100 made to start, but have more in works. A long time ago I had an issue with crap getting in my trigger guard during a stalk so I came up with an idea where you take your existing padded scope cover and loop the straps through a pad that covers the trigger and bolt areas. It is covered with Molle type webbing on both sides. One side is Coyote and the other side OD Green so you only have to buy one. It does not add any movements to use or take off, as long as you already use a scope cover. One size fits all. US Tactical Supply, Triad Tactical and One Shot Tactical in Canida will sell them soon.

Rick B. saw it at Shot and said he liked it. Well he took one to use so maybe he can add if he gets time.

On Crabon fibr wrapped bbls. I ahd some issues with mine and I am waiting to see if they can sort it out. Thats all on that for now.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 16:42:25 (ZULU)

Raffle - An old friend told me to wake up and put my ear to the DR.

The raffle engine has heard your calling for a Riffle Raffle.... Let me stir a few things... stay tuned....

Ken Hunter
Noke, Va, USA Under God - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 17:41:32 (ZULU)

Just dropped in to say hello.

Borin-ski

Thanks for the thought - I mean it when I say it's worth more than money.

As to a legal defense fund, I could kiss you (and I ain't gay... and your ugly! ;).

But this thing would cost so much that it would break the bunch of you.

I keep digging through a mountain of paperwork (about 50 pounds of documents) and keep finding more stuff - think of it like this - someone threw 100 jigsaw puzzles into a box, and you have to find the pieces to 2 of them... and the pieces are mostly blue and green :(((

Today, I found one line in an e-mail about when the new court building opened, and I spent 20 minutes on the phone finding out when the new court opened... cuz the party (my first lawyer) said she handled 10 custody cases a year... and I had an e-mail from her on June '04 saying that she hadn't been to the new court house yet... and I thought about it for a minute and decided to find out when the new court house opened. It was in Aug 2002, TWO FRIGGIN YEARS BEFORE, and she is a lawyer in THAT TOWN??... and she hadn't been to the court house in two friggin years - I mean..... SHIT!

This is what I'm doing... I pour over papers looking for teeny pieces, a sentence here, a note there, and I chase it down - many are dead ends, and once in a while, I find a teeny nugget that will go into the big puzzle

The connection I found a few weeks ago turned out to be weak - but I'm used to that now.

I have been trying to find out who investigates and prosecutes perjury, collaboration. and witness tampering... I have all the proofs, most of the documents (the rest are coming), and would you believe I can't find who prosecutes it... I mean we have all heard (and some of have sworn to) "Tell the truth, the whole truth... etc" and if you lie, you get whacked for perjury, RIGHT???

Well, for three months, I have contacted the Governors office, the attorney Generals office, the state prosecutorial office, and I keep bouncing around from door to door, from phone number to phone number... I mean to tell you, nobody knows who the fuck investigates and prosecutes perjury, collaboration, and witness tampering??? I mean, ARE YOU FRIGGIN KIDDIN'???

Is there any intelligent life in the Connecticut court system??

A year and a half ago. there was a big story that hit the national news about a cop in a divorce with a child involved... after going through hell, he walked up and shot his ex, and her lawyer, then shot himself... man, do I know why. (No, I gots too much to live for, so don't even think of it).

This is just the dirtiest system I could ever imagine

... anyway.

Thanks for your thoughts - it does count.

Gotta go back to the mountain of papers.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 19:02:28 (ZULU)

A buddy was cleaning out his attic and found two old shotguns...both have a bit of surface rust and the wood could use some work...but bores are shiny...

First shotgun is a single shot, top break shotgun, looks to be just a tad larger than .410, could that be 28 ga.? The stamping says simply "Montgomery Ward & co"

Second shotgun appears to be same bore dia, double barrel with a long, flat piece of metal between the barrels that appears to act as the sight...the manufacturer name is too difficult to make out " looks like is might start with the letter "C"... the second line stamping appears to say "Miami, Florida"...it is a break action with the left / right lever on top to open the action...double triggers.

My guess is 1950's manufacture...

-any insight would be appreciated

medicjim
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 19:02:40 (ZULU)

Pablito,

Do you know of any equipment/production move by USRAC to a new facility in Georgia, sometime within the last year or so?

Some lawyer type is jabbering on another site like he knows all there is to know about the Winchester situation.

Les

Les
Canton, CT, - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 20:22:07 (ZULU)

Les...

I haven't heard of that.

I have been spending my time with "you know what", and haven't been going around and chatting guns with the locals.

I hope it is true. Connecticut used to be the "Gunmaking state", and the libs and the unions have driven them out or under.

Winchester could do well if they were in the south.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 20:29:31 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito!

I'm gonna dig into this Winchester thing, as you know I am a GA boy temporarily displaced in CT for a few years now. I have contacts back there, and if this proves to be true, there will be hope for the future.

Just send me an E-mail if I can be of any assistance in any way with the cross you currently bear. (WTM338*comcast*fishnet) ;)

Les

Les
GA boy in CT, - Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 20:39:54 (ZULU)

Montgomery Ward used to be a competitor of Sears. Both Sears and MonkeyWard used to have stuff made with their name on it by reputable manufacturers. H&R probably did the single shot. Other possibilities depend upon approximate age.

Winchester-another site indicates that the IAM&AS union got exclusive contract rights to produce Winchester products till 2008 or thereabouts (or whenever the contract expires). If so, expect nothing with a "W" till after that time, and then from somewhere outside of Hartford.

'Lito-it would appear that due to perjury, misfeasance, collusion and conspiracy, your civil rights (due process) have been stomped. Simple incompetance of your attorney probably doesn't count. You might check with the US Attorney (Feds) about interest and/or take your pile of paperwork to someone like (hold your nose) 60 minutes.

WR Moore
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 20:43:49 (ZULU)

Before you go to the media whores, I'd first go to my Congress critter's ombudsman. Both Rep and Sen, as well as the state folks. I know a staff guy for one of the Conn Reps, so hit me offline if you have interest in pursuing this COA. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 20:49:45 (ZULU)

Mark Steyn on the U.N. It sounds boring but is a good read:

"Perhaps that malign combination of empty European gesture-politics and Third World larceny would be relatively harmless, at least in the geopolitical sense, if these were quieter times. But they’re not. This is an age in which America and its real allies—a bigger number than you’d think—need to be free to act without being a latter-day Gulliver ensnared by Lilliputian UN resolutions from head to toe. After all, consider the alternative to American action. As you may have noticed, the good people of Darfur in Sudan have been fortunate enough not to attract the attention of the arrogant cowboy unilateralist Bush and have instead fallen under the care of the UN multilateral compassion set. So, after months of expressing deep, grave concern over whether the graves were deep enough, Kofi Annan managed to persuade the UN to set up a committee to look into what’s going on in Darfur. Eventually, they reported back that it’s not genocide.

"That’s great news, isn’t it? Because if it had been genocide, that would have been very, very serious. As yet another Kofi Annan-appointed UN committee boldly declared a year ago: “Genocide anywhere is a threat to the security of all and should never be tolerated.” So thank goodness what’s going on in Sudan isn’t genocide. Instead, it’s just 100,000 corpses who all happen to be from the same ethnic group—which means the UN can go on tolerating it until everyone’s dead, and none of the multilateral compassion types have to worry their pretty heads about it."

CDC'
Thursday, March 2, 2006, at 22:50:18 (ZULU)

old shotguns;

Savage/Stevens made lots of shotguns for various companies. Sears, Western Auto, etc. It could very well be one of those. Does it have any numbers on it?

The Miami shotgun is most likely an old import from Brazil, Argentina, or Spain. My family has '60s era 20ga. that was imported through Miami from Brazil but I don't know who made it.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, March 3, 2006, at 00:01:58 (ZULU)

CDC

This whole thing with Iran also smells like North Korea too. Kim Jung "Mentally" Ill has been very quiet. I think China wouldn't start anything but if we got ourselves a real pan middle east fiasco I think a lot of countried would take advantage of our sitiuation, ie Taiwan, Kashmir etc. Don't forget that China has a intrest in Kashmir as well. A commie is still a commie no matter how they paint themselves. China is running out of room well carrying capacity anyway. They have a huge population of mostly males and the girls are usually tossed into whatever river is closest.

In desert Storm I ran into more Chicom made stuff than anything else.

Wes Howe,

Did you know a Lt. Howe by any chance who was a mustang who served with 2/3?

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 00:50:46 (ZULU)

Anyone,

What is the real deal on morale over there. I hope the lads know that WE the people are behind them 110%! I really think that the media are complicit in the death toll on our side. Every time the NY Times puts out a piece it's crap! I just heard the NY Times printed a piece telling all where the weak points are in our body armor! WTF!In some ways I'm glad I'm not over there. I don't think I could keep it together in the presence of the POS types. Ronal Reagan! Where are you when we need you the most.....I sure miss that great man!

Hey, arent these terrorist illegal combatants? Isn't it true that under the Geneva Convention says you can shoot anyone out of uniform...on the spot!? I think if we lived up to those rules the press and defeatocrats would shit.

God bless all those who serve and tho who served! My family and I pray for all of you at every meal and during family prayer. God knows it's the very least we can do. I hope you all who are there vote this year too!

Semper Fi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 01:16:31 (ZULU)

There's a decent article on Marine snipers "One Clean Shot" in March '06 "Military Officer", a publication of MOAA.

Mike

BMG Mike
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 02:52:24 (ZULU)

Boris! Yoo the Man :-)))

bomac
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 02:55:31 (ZULU)

Gents,

Bad Kharma, don't get me started on the morale thing and what the press gives up to our enemies. Year or two ago one "expert" told the terds how they could have planted a bomb to cause more casualties. Shoulda put a pound of C4 up his ass, some det cord, and a blasting cap. That would make him understand what bombs really do and he should keep his mouth shut.

Sorry, the other Lt. Howe was not watashi. Never served with 2/3. Was a west coast Marine and a Combat Engineer. I DID hear that I had a "twin" look alike and sometimes got mistaken by former C.O.'s, etc. Intersting. I joined the service in 1970 and retired in 1994 as a Major and Bn XO.

Old Shotguns: Hmm, there are old shotguns and there are SHOTGUNS. I'm refering to the old Purdeys, Holland & Holland, Winch 21, A.H. Fox, L.C. Smith, and Parker, etc.

A number of makers made what I'll call "bread and butter" guns for some "name" companies for their private brand. Sears was "Revelation". Hi-Standard made pump shotguns, Marlin some .22's. You get the idea. Affordable shotguns. Iver Johnson made a ton, as well.

Interestingly, some of these old shotguns can be made quite valuable as the basic platform was very sound and the basis for some of the better grades of shotguns. The original high grade A.H. Fox was an example. Some of the top grade Fox's command prices as high as $35-40K! Yet the basis for the gun was the same as for the standard grade guns. I have a Fox "Sterlingworth". A lesser grade, but with some judicious machineing, metal work, re-blueing, and high grade wood will match anything out there. The difference is the hand work and labor involved to get them to that point.

Guess I've been spoiled, but I've been hanging around with artisans of the high grade trade and you get to see what can be created, the love and care these guys lavish on their work. It's not a job, but a passion for these folks.

My best to all, prayers for the deployed and their families, and congrats to Boris! Is your wife's name Natasha?

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, March 3, 2006, at 03:30:31 (ZULU)

VDH on winning in Iraq but losing at home. Click my name.

CDC'
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 03:39:36 (ZULU)

Weak joke I just made up: A pollster walks into Punch Sultzberger's office and says, "I have good news and I have bad news."

Sultzberger says, "Bad news first."

Pollster says, "Our polls indicate that there is only one man left in America that doesn't know the New York Times just makes it up and is completely full of shit."

Sultzberger says, "That's awful. What's the good news?"

Pollster says, "That man is William Buckley."

The attached link explains why, in Buckley's view, "It Didn't Work". Note the evidence for that view. There isn't any.

It is sad to watch one of your personal heros outlive his wits.

CDC'
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 03:49:11 (ZULU)

Indoor ranges.

Well living in the "city" makes it very difficult indeed. I have a semi safe alternative. First a good rimfire bullet trap. Next a AR 15. What I do is the following. I take 20 pieces of brass that is deemed unfit or just for blasting ammo. I take my primer pocket reamer for large rifle and recut the pocket for large rifle primers.

Once that is done I prime it with Federal 215 magnum primers. They seat very stiffly. I then take my favoite .22 caliber pellet and finger seat it. Wad cutters work fine. Don't worry about twist rate. If you're shooting 10m you won't know the difference.

I get about 625 f/s. It's not very loud and I can get some impressive groups.

It lets me shoot from all 4 positions and I get all the benifits of sight picture and trigger pull from my favorite rifle..well one of them anyway. Interstingly enough, my .22 hornet gets higher velocity due to the smaller case capacity.

If you want to be a pain in the ass try using Prometheus pellets with 1.0gr bullseye. They go about 1000f/s. Use dacron to push the powder to the flash hole. If you don't want to fool with recutting primer pockets just use small riflw magnum primers. They shoot a bit slower, but same basic result.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 04:35:22 (ZULU)

Bad Karma: Middle daughter, numba 3 on the roster, is named "Raegan" for a reason:))

Morale is high here. There is a distorted report from a sample of 997 OIF soldiers (wanna bet that it was not so random?) that shows a desire to withdrawal. The question in question was probably, "Do you want to go home soon?" Well, shit--I do. But my work here is not quite done yet--so I extended. If morale is sooooo bad, why are we outpacing re-enlistments? Why did the kid who sued in federal xourt over his stop-loss also reenlist as his case was heading to trial? Why do the kids to my left and right beg, literally beg me, to go across the berm? And yes, I do drag along "buddy team" kids on my forrays. No shortage of volunteers. We do a good job of analyzing our effort. Most kids---yes, the nineteen years olds, can and do articulate the real reason this war IS the GWOT; democracy in some form will improve life across the social strata--and a employed would-be jihadist with aspirations for a real and possible better life for his kids is no jihadist. No matter the culture--nuturing kids is universal. Hope is when you have a shot at improving your lot, and bigger improvements for your kids. Freeing up the concentrated wealth of a nation and allowing it to flow thru education and industry (as opposed to Saddam's bank accounts and garages) will do just that. Our kids are not the only ones who get it. The assclown terrs get it too---and they rightfully need to try to stop our success here---for it is their bell tolling in the night (how freakin Jeffersonian...). The only morons who do not get it are dems and media types...wait, they seem to be one and the same when you get right down to it...

Bottom line: I meet an assload of kids each month---and I've yet to find a "cut and run" attitude amongst them. Open source has a couple of BCTs on theater reserve. They are pissed off, not because they are deployed, but that they are not deployed enough to have a shot at the bad guys! They are royally pissed at being so close, but so far from kicking some ass. I am not kidding.

Anyone catch a LTC(P) James Rice on FNC's Special Report two days ago? He is a good friend and mentor to me...he is also the guy who was passed over twice for LTC and 4 times for COL (now on the list as we speak). Heheh--he told a certain four star theater commander that he was tactically incompetent on Grenada way back when they were both matching company-grade officer-kids. The lesson here is to insult your target, but follow thru with eradication. Or else you may piss off a fast moving rising star and suffer the ire forever. Heheh. Jim is a guy who I would follow to hell with a hairbrush for a weapon. The insulted fella, well, only to see what he might do next out of curiousity....but with a platoon of up-armored gunships just in case...

Ken: email inbound!

Boris
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 06:25:27 (ZULU)

Bad Karma: If I understand correctly, the gas from the primer contains materials that will cause brain damage.

Krauthammer on Boris's "media types": "Oscars for Osama".

"In my naivete, I used to think that Hollywood had achieved its nadir with Oliver Stone's "JFK," a film that taught a generation of Americans that President John F. Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA and the FBI in collaboration with Lyndon Johnson. But at least it was for domestic consumption, an internal affair of only marginal interest to other countries. "Syriana," however, is meant for export, carrying the most vicious and pernicious mendacities about America to a receptive world."

Click my name.

CDC'
Friday, March 3, 2006, at 13:49:19 (ZULU)

Many of you probably don’t remember Robert L. Scott, but for those of us that are older than dirt he was once my hero.

Robert Scott, an American flying ace who was once described as the "one-man air force" over China during World War II and whose exploits were turned into the best-selling book "God Is My Co- Pilot" and then into a film, died Monday in Warner Robins, Ga., after a stroke. He was 97.

Desperate for new duty after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, he managed to insert himself in combat plans despite being overage at 33. To do so, he lied about his experience flying four-engine bombers, claiming 1,100 hours when he had none. If he were going to invent facts, he said, he figured there was no use in being humble about it.

He settled in India as part of the Assam-Burma-China Ferry Command, flying food-and-supply transport missions over the Himalayas. Through that work, he met Gen. Claire Chennault, commander of the air defense group known as the "Flying Tigers." He persuaded Chennault to lend him a P-40 combat plane to escort the supply missions.

From the start, he was masterful at knocking out the enemy, and in fall 1943 alone he was credited with at least 13 enemy hits and six more probable downings. He bombed strategic bridges and killed countless Japanese during hundreds of missions. Life magazine dubbed Gen. Scott the "greatest of all the pursuit men."

HDR
ok, - Friday, March 3, 2006, at 15:18:11 (ZULU)

Lead...

The compound used in primers (U.S. anyway) is lead styphanate (unsure of spelling) we used to use murcury fulminate. L.S. is non corrosive and very stable even for very long periods of time. Murcury fulminate is still very stable but very corrosive. They both exhaust toxic fumes that cause brain damage (just look at my grammer and spelling)because they are 'heavy metals'. There are chlorinated primers too, not so common over here but used in parts of eastern europe. They are corrosive too. As I understand it they are not as braisant either.

It's not just the primers that are bad for you. Different propellants give off vapors that are nasty too. Take your typical double base powder, nitroglycerine and nitrocellulose. There are dirivitive compounds from the sulfuric and nitric acids that will mess with you too. I feel that with propper ventilation and washing of hands will help a lot. I think if you vent the gas through a wall vent about 36" from the ground you will be OK. Lead is heavy and wants to settle. You can see this if you cast bullets a lot. The 'smoke' will rise a bit then settle.

If you are using a true indoor range use a whole house fan. It'll suck a lot of air. If you put it near the impact area and have a inlet near where you are shooting, you will wash yourself with fresh air. As much as I'm exposed to lead as much as I shoot I should be f@#*ing retarded. My I.Q. is still 127. There is always a way to build a better mouse trap or bullet trap

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 02:11:02 (ZULU)

Other things that are bad for you...

Too many birthdays will kill you. Local drinking water, Democrats,etc

Ha Ha

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 02:59:18 (ZULU)

BK, yeah, it's lead styphnate. Except for some lead-free primers, which don't work as well. But it's only stable after stabilized. Before it's stabilized, mild static shock, even through glass, can detonate it. Much less some kind of mild physical shock, like opening the container it's in, or scraping the container it's in with something like a stirbar. Don't ask me how I know that. It's one of those compounds like TNT, that is best not made traditionally.

However, once you use the nitric acid, it's no longer there. Like saying that once you use an egg in a cake, if you burn the cake, you get an egg back. Just so you don't think I'm off my gord, my biggest customer is typically ATK.... you know, the Alliant / Hercules guys. That doesn't mean that I don't prefer Hodgdons. Alliant is OK stuff, they've just been trying to use up Patron 'Lito's polyester leisure suits since the late '70's, and still have too much polyester in the powder for my taste.

CDC' and Boris, you've got incoming from me. CDC' gets the attachment.

Folks are bothering me with all this boyscout stuff lately. To make everything right in my head, tomorrow will be a day of shooting and rapelling with the boy. Maybe I'll call him a "Recon Scout", so the other kids can be jealous while they're building model cars. BAH!

Bravo
Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 04:38:42 (ZULU)

Morning folks!!

Up and at 'em, rise and shine..Say, is anyone here going to IWA in Germany?

Am surprised Browning isn't picking up Winnie...

Ken,

Would you be interested in an intercontinental riffel raffle? contact me via email and I'll give you the scoop..

'lito,

You doing the paralegal thing, emphasis on para..hah..The reason you can't call the state to find who investigates perjury, collaboration, and the what not is because, well hell you know why..That's what you pay defense liars for...I know a pretty good liar who is also a shooter, when I can think of his name will see if can get youse two in touch...also know a liar we call 'loophole', but he's last resort...

CDC,

keep em comin'...

JR
covered in snow in Langholm Scotland, UK - Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 07:31:04 (ZULU)

Dan: To revisit and earlier point by you: Charles K is a brilliant analyst with a gift of our language. Thanks for pointing this article out for us; personally, I would never find it since it was on the DC Post...read by me only on the cold days in hell. If I want to get inside the head of the enemy---I will choke down the NY times, or clandestinely monitor signals from NPR...

Bravo: Nada email yet. No "outside server" email is coming in again on the unsecure net. WTF???

Boris
Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 08:03:05 (ZULU)

JR.. IWA... apart from me and you you mean? where the heck has Joe S got too? hardly heared from him since the last IWA.

Gents. Ive convinced Schmidt & Bender to build a DMR / CQB version of thier 1.5-6x42 Zenith scope.

The configuration is.

1,5-6x42 FD, Elevation range will be 5 mil with 0,1mil clicks, windage +/- 2,5mil. FD-MilDot reticle. it will have the smaller BDC turrets like the older PM range or the short dot PMII.

Ive used the 1.5-6x52 Zenith FD (flash dot) to some extent and it is the best quick target aquisition type optic i have ever used, and that inclused several aimpoints, the AGOG, SUSAT and several other red dot holo sight types.

I think the close range, fast target aquisition and engagement capability, plus a mildot type ranging reticle, added to the 6x power and the extreemly good low light performance of this scope would make it an absolute winner. A superb optic for use on a spotters rifle or a DMR.

Ive got one on order for my self and anothr 3 for customers just as soon as S&B give me a part number to order on. Any one else interested?

regards Pete

Pete Lincoln
D - Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 14:18:38 (ZULU)

Duman, I recall having a conversation with you about rust preventatives. I could recall the CLP results as #2, but not "the other one". Eezox was the one I couldn't recall, and won the "best rust preventative" of those tested. I'm thinking if I can find some, I'll give it a go. CLP though, is EVERYWHERE.

Here's a link: http://www.thegunzone.com/rust.html

I said I'd get it to you...... just took me some time. Guess it's catch-up week here LOL!

Patron Boris, resent the same one..... hopefully it'll get through this time.

Just read about the Jeff Cooper commemerative Glock 37, serial numbers DVC - 001 through 045, complete with the Jeff Cooper logo roll marked into the slide. Gee. Something else I didn't know I needed.

I've been looking at the Ratweiler. Hard. Appears I may just have to pick one of these up, but in the fall. I'm so busticated lately, it hurts.

Bravo
Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 18:10:23 (ZULU)

re: Rust Preventatives

One of the products that wasn't tested by Rob Firriolo is Boeshield T-9. Supposed to be pretty effective as a protectant. Not high on my list of lubricants.

Mfgr web site says now available at Sears too (presumably USA only).

Also sold thru Brownells. In Canada, Lee Valley (woodworking tools) carries the aerosol for retail sales. Several (boating) marine supply chains carry it too. Also used in the bicycle and aircraft maintenance...

http://www.boeshield.com/

Squeeze bottle, aerosol, bulk liquid.

Boeshield T-9® is a solvent and paraffin wax formula developed by Boeing Aviation for long term metal protection. It penetrates into metal pores, displaces moisture and dries to a thin waxy film.

Boeshield T-9® will protect guns for months, both in the field and in storage.

Field Use: Spray on and wipe off. Repeat approximately once per week.

Storage Protection: Spray on and allow to dry. Repeat every six to twelve months. Respray and wipe off when ready to use.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 19:01:24 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Thanks for the link.

Kano Oil - best deal is to go straight to the source, at www.kanolabs.com. I bought a gallon. Hate to run out of stuff.

Stalingrad - turns out the Russians mixed gasoline with the gun oil to keep mechanisms from freezing up in subzero weather. Testing in a cold chamber showed significant improvments in functionality of Russian rifles over German rifles using regular gun oil. Also, the layered clothing the Germans wore (wool) was actually inferior to the cotton layers the Russians wore. The Germans in many cases had what they thought were adequate clothing, until it got cold. Cold test chamber showed the Russians could expect to be ~5C warmer than the Germans. It's amazing the effects of subtle technical differences can make.

Duman
Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 21:46:55 (ZULU)

The best Rust Preventitive I've found in 45 years is "Eexox".

Good for "I'll probably want to use it in my lifetime".

http://www.eezox.com/

Cosmic ie. Cosmoline is probably the best for (forever long term storage),let the Grandchildren inheret the stuff.

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 21:47:23 (ZULU)

Bravo: "...Jeff Cooper commemerative Glock..."?

Are we talking about the same guy? The one I know harrumphs pretty loudly in the presence of Tupperware.

Check out the link. The story I get, but have not confirmed, is that these things are comparable in toughness and utility to Swamp Rats but are much less expensive. If you want a Ratweiler in it's current configuration, order it now. Swamp Rat is introducing a new line. Since they sell out in seconds, don't be surprised by a price hike.

CDC'
Saturday, March 4, 2006, at 21:47:45 (ZULU)

(Assuming we weren't all victims of a humorous hoax...)

Bravo, where do you get your news - bottles washed up on shore {grin}?

The Jeff Cooper Commemorative Glock 37 was a 2004 project.

http://www.thegunzone.com/gagpix/cooper-commemorative.html

The Gun Zone goes on to indicate that the project was "spiked"

http://www.thegunzone.com/gagpix/cooper-commemorative2.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 00:23:22 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Nice to see someone familiar with volitile compounds. I also remember reading somewhere that a stablized form of nitrogen tri iodide was experimented with. This is some freaky stuff. Sometimes just the molecules rubbing sets it off.

I think the lead free primers are crap. CA was wanting to only sell ammo that had a finite shelf life of 6 months.

I experimented a bit with refurbishing primers using the scrapped off tips of strike anywhere mathes in a 9mm. It works fine as long as you have the right amount. It however is terribly corrosive. Hey, maybe we can sell em to the French! Naw, thier rifles are only dropped. I also heard that france is the largest poultry exporter in the EU. I guess they ment French POWs going to Germany.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 01:45:42 (ZULU)

Gents,

A Jeff Cooper Commemerative Glock 37? Just what does the roll mark look like? Jeff Cooper having a coronary? Gad, in that .45 GAP not ACP. Please tell me your kidding. On the other hand we have seen Lee Ermey holding a Glock, so there may be some truth to this...

Let me know as the story unfolds. For now it heads my "short list" of things I never want to own. Somehow I sense Bravo behind all this...;-)

Rust Preventitives: One of the best and cheapest is plain old tree wax. Right, it's the same paste wax you use on wood floors. Remove the metal from the wood/plastic/fiberglass and apply wax to the metal surfaces,allow to dry about 30 minutes and buff off. Will protect the weapon for about 30 days in nasty weather. If you're really concerned about corrosion build the darn thing out of stainless or have a it Black T'd, Robar'd, or some such and forget about it.

Kano Oil: Brownell's sells the stuff as "Kroil". Hideously expensive unless you go direct to Kano Labs. It's about $32.00 a gallon direct. Not a rust preservative, but the best damn penetrating oil I've ever seen. Good cutting fluid/coolant, too.

If you have an old double rifle or shotgun that's in sad shape soak it in "Kroil" for about 6 months(be patient). You'll be amazed at the amount of corrosion and crud it removes. Leaving some pretty decent metal behind. At the very least you have a starting point for your restoration project.

Lubes: the only weapons that see CLP are my M16/derivaties and SMG's. Works well on full autos. It will never see the metal of one of my high grade rifles. Beleive it or not, I use the paste wax on them.

Cosmoline: I keep a quart can handy for emergencies. Great long term preservative and a bitch to clean off. Also, great for tooling and small parts preservation between uses.

Lot's of good stuff out there. Your choice...

Good to see some of our old list members posting once again.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 02:24:52 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

Saw that you mentioned double rifles. I have a nice .500 BP Express thats in really good shape. The only flaw is a spur on the right hammer is broke off. No biggie. I just don't want to spend $200 on dies. I am concidering using 50-110 dies and a .500 NE shell holder. I am researching loads for my Howda pistol. It's a 20 bore, a little old looking on the outside but the bores are mint and that action is tight. I have a firing pin missing on the right barrel though. All in all a nice pair. I wonder what they would say if I wanted the Howda on a CCw.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 02:43:07 (ZULU)

re: preservation options

An interesting alternative to Cosmoline for intermediate/long term static preservation is the Triple Tough mylar bag / Gunwrap protectant paper system. Permits storing a firearm is "almost ready to go" conditon. (Just slap on your favourite operating lube when you unbag).

From Brownells:

Gunwrap paper:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=1197&s=

Meets Mil Spec P-3420F; Rust-Free Storage In Gun-Factory Paper

Wrap around guns, tools, other steel valuables for protection from moisture and rust. 1 square foot of paper protects 1 cubic foot of space. Tests show 10-15 years protection when steel parts were wrapped in GUNWRAP, sealed in plastic and stored in a cool place. Will not damage bluing or steel. Not recommended for aluminum, silver, brass or copper. May cosmetically stain nickel plating, tho' normally cleans off. Not compatible with some older lacquer finishes. Modern finishes unaffected.

SPECS: Available in 12" (30.5cm) x 12" (30.5cm) Sheets or 4" (10.2cm) x 36" (91.4cm) Strips.

Triple Tough premium storage bags:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1154&title=TRIPLE+TOUGH?%20PREMIUM%20STORAGE%20BAGS

Once Sealed It's Impervious To Moisture

Resistant To All Petro-Chemical & Solvents

The Firearm Storage Bag For The Next Hundred Years

Tough but flexible; these bags are puncture resistant, semi-transparent and have a 0% moisture transmission rating, so rust-protected items sealed inside will remain rust and corrosion free indefinitely. Resistant to all petroleum based chemicals and solvents and completely non-biodegradable, so they will never break down even in full contact with soil or moisture. Anti-static properties make them a perfect dust cover for short term storage in a vault, or even in the back corner of a closet.

SPECS: Polyester/aluminum/polyethylene film, silver. Handgun 8" (20cm) x 20" (50cm). Rifle 12" (30cm) x 60" (152cm). 3 pak includes 3 bags, Gun Box Labels and instructions, 12 pak includes 12 bags, Gun Box Labels, 1 roll of poly-tape and instructions.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 06:11:28 (ZULU)

Anyone know how much .50 cal SLAP and H.E. rounds go for on the market?

Dalton Howard
Ft. Rich, AK, - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 08:00:19 (ZULU)

"But there's no way we can let irresponsible journalists off the hook - or their parent organizations. Many journalists are, indeed, brave and conscientious; yet some in Baghdad - working for "prestigious" publications - aren't out on the city streets the way they pretend to be.}

"They're safe in their enclaves, protected by hired guns, complaining that it's too dangerous out on the streets. They're only in Baghdad for the byline, and they might as well let their Iraqi employees phone it in to the States. Whenever you see a column filed from Baghdad by a semi-celeb journalist with a "contribution" by a local Iraqi, it means this: The Iraqi went out and got the story, while the journalist stayed in his or her room."

"And the Iraqi stringers have cracked the code: The Americans don't pay for good news. So they exaggerate the bad."

CDC'
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 14:43:02 (ZULU)

Dalton...

I've seen SLAP rounds go from $35 to $50 each - collectors only round - I don't shoot no steeenkin' $50 rounds :((

A wealthy friend has three rounds, and he lets me touch them if I've been really good!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 14:48:12 (ZULU)

Good passage in an unrelated Mark Steyn column:

"The press have been insisting Iraq is teetering on the brink of civil war for three years and yet, despite the urgings of CNN and the BBC, those layabout Iraqis stubbornly refuse to get on with it. They're happy to teeter for another three years, no matter how many "experts" stamp their foot and pout their lips and say "I want my civil war now." The New York Times ran a headline after the big bombing: "More Clashes Shake Iraq; Political Talks Are In Ruins." The "political talks" resumed the day after publication. The "ruins" were rebuilt after 48 hours."

CDC'
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 14:56:02 (ZULU)

Catshooter,

I picked up three guns last weekend some guys my dad new had them.It turns out to be two older shotguns and a high standard 22 handgun.Paid 100.00 for all three.The one shot gun was an old sportsmans 48 remy.Cleaned them up and took them in sold them for 500.00.Not a bad deal.I should have kept the 22 though it was pretty neat.But the same day I bought one of those walter P22's I think it is my new favorite gun,I put about 100 rounds through it with only one jam.

Jon Kujawa
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 16:04:05 (ZULU)

re: .50 BMG SLAP rounds

(1) Don't shoot thru anything with a muzzle "device". Naked muzzles only. (The sabot starts to open as soon as it isn't completely supported.)

(2) I've read reports that the sabot occasionally fails, which results in the projectile emerging thru the side of the barrel! Definitely bad news for the firearm being used, as well as a hazard to anything even vaguely downrange.

Given the above, I would pass on the .50 BMG SLAP rounds even if they were free.

Too bad, it was an interesting concept.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 16:04:16 (ZULU)

A fantastic long term metal protectant is chain lube for dirt bikes. All brands are great but dry sticky. It cleans off with any degreaser. If the stuff works on a chain being drug through mud and sand and running around chain guides it will work on just about any metal in any condition.

Han k
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 16:09:08 (ZULU)

Ken I am no understanding this statement! <<We had plenty of M118LR(admittedly of four different lots), so it just sat there.>> Please explain or am I going crazy?

Boris - Congrates on the win!

Guys - Mike's trigger defender is well worth a look if you are doing any kind of field work. It keeps the crap and crud out of the trigger without having to resort to a bulky useless drag bag. :)

'lito - Keep on slugging away, you know all of us are behind you on this one.

Medicjim - Do believe that J.C.Higgins made a bunch of shot guns for both Sears and Monty Wards.

Wes - Try gasoline, it cuts right through Cosmoline. :)

Dalton - If you are looking for SLAP or Raufoss rounds, I can only assume that you are MUCH richer than most shooters. They are very expensive and Raufoss, and other explosive style rounds, are restricted.

Rod - Very true on the muzzle break, I succeeded in sending on down range out of ignorance in the 80s and I have a friend that made .50s that accomplished the very same feat. As an aside, refrain from firing the SLAP round out of a 50 without a muzzle break. Been there, done that, have that t shirt and ace wrap. :)

There were some interesting concept as far as cutters on teh muzzle break to cut the sabot and other concepts to prevent the sabot form blossoming in the muzzle break, but I never heard of any that worked. Will ask Earl Reddick that one when I see him next.

Iraq - No where near as bad as the press makes out, just as Viet Nam was no where near as bad as the press made out. However, the idiots in Congress, afraid of what the very vocal minority screams, will do something stupid as the pressure by the dullards increase. This increase os only a show for the voters that the dullards believe they are pandering to while they fail to realize they are truely pandering to the terrorists.

Hodl Hard guys!!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 16:23:09 (ZULU)

Gents,

Break at work. Everyone on their best behavior today(so far).

Rick B.: Have used gas on Cosmoline, but it makes me nervous. Mentally it's kinda like soaking in a hot tub full of napalm. Have an acquaintance that was burned horribly by a FAE. Luckily, he was facing away when it ignited. Third degree burns on his backside from head to toe. He was lucky. Me? I'm ugly enough. Don't need any help in that department.

Bad Kharma.: Wow, a .500 BPE double rifle? If in good condition it would be a hoot to fire. Believe that brass is still available. Dies? Probably a custom proposition. Your idea of using a Sharps die may work. Anyway, you've got a very special piece of history. Any idea about the maker, etc? Damascus or fluid steel barrels in a proper chopper lump configuration? If in shootable condition it's probably a good candidate for restoration. Hammers are available in a number of configurations or can be made. If you have a pic please send it too me. Love double guns!

Primers, etc. You darn engineers really like to push the envelope. Anyone offering a way to make our own primers? I know the black powder shooters can. Probably easier with berdan primers as there is no anvil to screw with.

Mike's trigger defender sounds great. I've got a drag bag, but primarily use is for safekeeping and gear storage while in transport. Will have to take a look see.

All for now. Work beckons.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 19:00:30 (ZULU)

I am not the rich one my friends. No no. I have a buddy that owns a .50 cal and bought over 20 SLAP rounds from a dealer for under $1.50 a pop. Also, he bought a handful of H.E. rounds for the same price. The dealer obviously didn't know what he had, and neither did we until last night. Yesterday at a state-wide gun show, i saw a man selling the H.E. rounds for $50 bucks a shot. The sad thing is, before we knew the the silver/green tip meant, me and my buddy had already shot a few. We went back to the dealer and bought up the rest of his H.E.'s last night. Poor guy didn't know what he was missing out on. And about the SABOT's, I have read about them messing up barrels and muzzle breaks so we haven't shot any. Just wondering how much cash me and my buddy are sittin on, that's all.

Dalton Howard
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 20:16:28 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Just back from a quick trip to a funeral in Pensacola. The big C got my old Navy buddies wife. She was interred at the Barrancas National Cemetery on NAS Pensacola. While passing the golf course one of the golfers removed his hat and held it over his heart when we went by. As we turned into the cemetery, our escort of three motorcycle officers were standing at attention and saluting. Nice to see someone show respect. Damn but I hate to lose good friends.

medicJim,

Your Montgomery Ward shotgun might indeed be a 28 gauge. The end of a .410 round measures .452" and a 28 gauge round is .606". Neither Wards nor Sears made guns so my guess would be that it's a Savage/Stevens/Springfield Model 94 which was made in most all gauges. The double could be something from Brazil that was imported by an outfit in Miami. Boito made a .410 double. Have you measured the bore diameter at the muzzle?

HDR,

Thanks for the info on Robert Scott. I still have his book around here somewhere.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 22:44:14 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

The .500 BPE is in pretty good shape. It has a wonderful plumb patina. Not pitting, and the wood has a ebony look to it. It doesn't have any real makers marks on it. Just proof marks. I suspect it's a Jeffreys. The bor is decent. Tis a little dark but not pitted. I suspect that the Howda was nickle plated at one time.

I called and spoke with Ross Seyfreid from Handloader. He thinks the 20 bore uses paper shells. I have a bunch of Peters brass ones....original approx 60 of them. If you shove the Howda into a intruders face it would be like looking through a pair of binos.

I have a bunch of original .500 BPE rounds from Kynoch, about 30 or so. I have a 5 round box that says .500 Smokeless for Black Powder Express.

I too am a BIG fan of doubles. I want to liquidate some of my collection to get a Krieghoff double in .500 NE.

The neatest oldie that I love to shoot is my Martini. It was originally in .303. It was sleeved by W.W. Greener in 1883. The rifle was converted for the NRA. It shoots like a house on fire. The 30" barrel works great with .22 shorts. Sounds like a airsoft pistol.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 22:49:48 (ZULU)

re: Cosmoline removal

I'm told the trick setup is a recirculating parts washer like automotive/truck mechanics use for cleaning up grease-caked assemblies. Use a petrolium fraction product like Varsol.

Rick is right (as usual), a suitable field expedient is gasoline. Just don't smoke or make sparks. Gasoline vapour is explosive if the air/fuel mixture is "right".

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 22:56:54 (ZULU)

Looking for a good handload using 180gr SMK's and ??? powder. Have tried so many different powders and 168's, 175's and 180's I'm getting very frustrated! OK tried RL 22, IMR 4064, AA4350, H380, Varget, N160, and everytime I start to get a 1-1.5MOA group I seem to start getting high perssure signs; shiney brass, primer flow, bolt hard to open etc. AND to cap it all some of this is 1-2 grs UNDER a max load listed for that bullet weight and powder load!!

Rifle is a Remington 700 SPS I bought new about 3 months ago - YEAH I've been chasing a load for that long!!

HELP!!!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 23:34:08 (ZULU)

Mudville Gazette by way of Instapundit: "In a recent press briefing General George Casey (the commander of Multinational Forces in Iraq) countered virtually every inflated claim made by the media regarding Iraq's recent "civil war" in the wake of the Shrine bombing in Samarra. But there are significant disconnects between what Gen Casey said and how his words are reported. . . .

"The media is free to dispute the General's claims - that's expected of them. But in this case they aren't, they are simply using his words selectively in a manner that supports their own previously published fictions. There's no law that says U.S. media outlets are required to report accurately or completely on comments made by military or government officials. Likewise there are no requirements for media outlets to acknowledge that they are printing unverified claims made by "other parties" in the war as confirmed "news" - as was the case in the aftermath of the Shrine bombing (See here and here). But consumers of those reports should be aware of their flaws."

CDC'
Sunday, March 5, 2006, at 23:43:23 (ZULU)

Rick, I was speaking of the WRA 61 ball on stripper clips sitting there, on a pallet, in our ASP. We had ammo broken out and set aside for the TL's to take and issue on an "as needed" basis. You need more, take more, just let me know what you expend so I can get more. It worked well, guys can get all they can use, but you can still see what's going on for accoutability and SA on expenditures.

I had four lots of M118LR: 98, 99, 01 and 02 headstamps. I simply broke the ammo out per rifle and made sure each had enough of only one lot and we were fine. The WRA 61 just sat there on the pallet as fall back ammo should we have burned through over 4 cans of M118 LR.

We used lots of SLAP in Iraq from the M2's. I didn't care for it as it wasn't as good on cars and people as API. API would go through anything we hit and it makes a mess of people with fragments after penetrating besides, not something you get with the SLAP. There's a bunch of linked Mk211 Raufoss in use too, but that's really not needed for any target I ever saw. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 00:42:51 (ZULU)

Sarge,

What catridge are you shooting? Is it a factory barrel? Have you tried different OAL? My bolt gun had a remington factory barrel on it and it was ok. It was a .308 Win. and if I were to seat it to within .002" of the lands and grooves the OAL would be 2.975". When I tried that I was shooting under .5 MOA. What is your run-out like?

Ans most importantly is your barrel free floating? Check all your stock screws and your mounts. A mount can be loose and you can't always feel it.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 02:20:33 (ZULU)

About the only thing I use WD-40 for anymore is cleaning cosmo. An old toothbrush, a BUNCH o' q-tips, 2 or 3 cigars... Oh yeah. Dental picks. (Very gently). Pipe Cleaners, too.

Worked good on the Garand and the O3A3. 'Course it took awhile. But I consider it therapy.

Then cleaned all the WD off and lightly CLP'd the parts. Later on just wipe it down and lube and assemble.

Just get ALL that stinkin' WD off. Sure cuts the cosmo, though.

I hear Kerosene works well. Cleans old Harley oil tanks out good, too.

Nice visiting with you the other night, Mike.

Good job, Boris. Keep the loot! You sure as hell have earned it.

'Lito, hold hard.

Ya'all take care.

Semper-Fi!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 02:52:13 (ZULU)

Gasoline exposed above -20F...there is always someplace where the mixture is right... If you are in the UEL, you are not safe <g>

Doc - I had access to the shotguns for about five minutes, no mic in my pocket at the time. The buddy was talking about turning them in to the PD for the $40 buyback program...they'll be chopped up if that happens. I offered him $50 for the montgomery ward..

medicjim
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 03:09:16 (ZULU)

Sheesh, one of the owners of this site and I can't even get a post right! Sorry it's a .300WSM. And believe me I've looked and checked everything on the rifle and scope for loose screws etc! The barrel channel is clear all the way to the recoil lug. Etc Etc Etc!! Factory stock Remington 700 SPS.

Brass is Winchester, primer either GM 215M or 210M, I've tried both, and as in my original post multiple podwers at multiple weights and multiple Sierra MK's 168, 175, 180.

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 05:40:08 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Had a Remy Stainless 5R factory stick that would shoot 175's or 190's very well. 44 grains of Varget for the 175's and 42.5 grains for the 190's. Used Lapua brass and Winchester primers for both loads. Play around with the seating depth 'cause you know you gotta get the jump just right. Only problem with most Remingtom chambers now days is that to get the ogive out to within a couple of thousandths of the lands you almost don't have any bullet left in the neck of the case.

As always, YMMV.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 05:40:58 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Oops! Pulled the trigger to quick on that one. Didn't see your post about .300WSM until after I posted and refreshed.

I'll just go quitely back to lurking now.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 05:44:27 (ZULU)

Sarge,

A good friend of mine has a .300WSM and it's a true custom gun. Krieger bbl, jewel trigger, all tricked out. He has the very same problem.I think you may be suffering from it too. He tried every powder, every bullet, and even used my neck turning tool. To no avail. I think the WSMs are really a good idea that didn't pan out like they wanted too. I examined a case and they are really thick! See if your cases are even on the inside, a RCBS Case Master is required.

I have talked to many folks with the WSMs and only one has gotten the accuracy that you seek. I have a .300 Win mag in the Sendero and it shoots about .5-.75 MOA. My .308 however will shoot .25-.38 MOA. I did most of the work myself. It has a Douglas bbl on it. A lot of folks poo poo Dougls, but I am a man that tries it for myself. It out shoots my Krieger. Oh, it has a muzzle diameter of 1.125" and thw whole package weighs 17 1/2 pounds. Timney trigger. 6.5-20x50 Vari X III.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 05:56:41 (ZULU)

Dan: Geoff told me you asked which Steiners I have...I must have missed that. Both are Military and Marine, 7x50 with mil scale, and 8x30 compacts. I have a set of Nikons too, but the Steiners are the preferred kit by a wide margin.

Boris
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 08:53:28 (ZULU)

Boris: Dan who?

CDC'
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 13:29:19 (ZULU)

JK; Walther P22, Hehe. Isn't that a neat little gun! The Beretta 87 is another, lots more money and hard to find,a little nicer tho. Big enough to fit in your hand and small enough to fit in your pocket. Low noise, no recoil and cheap to shoot. Ambi safety is the best part for us southpaws.Nice little plinker. Shoot it 3-4 rounds a day (if you have a place to shoot) EVERY day. You will be amazed at how good you get in about a month or so. Keep it CLEAN and oiled up and it will work good. Good luck.

Joe Sinclair
Blitzburgh, PA, Steeler Nation - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 13:54:05 (ZULU)

300 WSM-now I know why Patron Dave's boys were playing with the 300 SAUM.

J.C Higgens didn't make anything for anybody. That's a private brand name for Montgomery Ward. Ted Williams was for Sears. One of the Brownell's Gunsmith Kinks books has a private brand identification list that lets you figure out who made what for whom(?).

WR Moore
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 13:54:31 (ZULU)

JC, damm glad to see you post here. Between comp crashes and many surgeries we lost touch. I hoped you where OK. If you are up to work let me know. I am retired now but need help. I dont have nay of your addresses as all where lost.

Dennis was my pleasure. Not many here in California that I like. Your one.

Rick thanks for kind words on Trigger Defender.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 14:51:57 (ZULU)

Dan, you the dan with da CDC handle...hey, I was told second hand and named the source of this telling; if the facts are wrong...oooops--we humans err. Background: I had mentioned, back at the beginning of the contest, that I owned a pair of steiners....and apparantly, "we" thought you "may" have asked which ones...which i missed entirely on the first pass--hence, the belated answer possibly to a question you never asked.

As you can see, I be confused.

Federal legitimized a 338-08? I saw some velocities, and thought, not bad....til I noticed how ultra-lite those boolits were. I did not know they made 338 dia pills in 270 weights...heheh. They're probably more aerodynamic sideways:))

Man, civil wars, decending chaos, loss of the war---it is all so boring. "All hell breaking loose" is about as anticlimatic as curling championships...maybe I should stop watching satellite news from my homeland...I think they may be just a tad sensational and quite a bit ahead of events. Or perhaps they merely want folks to buy into their agenda???

BBC world and skynews is pretty good stuff, and that includes FNC. I stomach Fox up to the cute blue-eyed murder victim of the month club. That is getting old...

Good god, after three damn years my nation's media is still reporting some other freakin' war. I feel so neglected....heheh.

I think I'll go to the 'stan and see what's up...in a couple of days. I'll move lock and stock there in a couple of weeks. Gotta check out the digs first---travel lite, freeze at night...

OK--so is the 300wsm a dud? It seemed to have much promise on paper...

Boris
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 16:18:08 (ZULU)

This link cross-references store brands and manufacturers of firearms. It links to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners. Sears, FN, Westernfield, etc. I think it was posted here before. Sorry if it is a recent double-post....

http://www.afte.org/ExamResources/manufcrossreference.htm

Or click on my name.

I think the FN commercial mauser rifle sold by Sears and Montgomery Wards was the best....

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 17:25:53 (ZULU)

Working at my stand-up desk, looking out the window from time to time. My old Beeman R7 and I are working on the vole infestation revealed by the receeding snow. A magpie is sitting on the back fence waiting for another freebie. He is wasting his time. They've got their heads down. It is surprising how fast those tiny brains figure this stuff out.

Boris: Oh yeah. I remember now. Steiners. I must have dozed off.

CDC'
Monday, March 6, 2006, at 18:17:50 (ZULU)

Boris:

Got a C-141 reserved for your permanent move? {grin}

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 18:28:26 (ZULU)

Undude,

Email inbound via DR. No attachments.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 20:25:16 (ZULU)

(fwd)

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2005/22Dec05.html

22Dec05

Silent revolution:

I was on the phone this morning with a good friend who manufacturers holsters under military contract. Most are concealment rigs, shoulder and hip holsters. His stuff is wonderful and is worn by many star-wearers and thei r security staffs. Interestingly, he reported that less than half of incomin g orders are for the Beretta (9mm, M9) pistol, the "official" sidearm of the US Military! There are a few requests for the M11 (SIG228), but the majority now are for the "old" 1911 pistol in 45ACP! Colts, Kimbers, Sp ringfields, S&Ws, they have them all! In addition, there is suddenly (and curiously) an ample supply of 45ACP ammunition, as well as 9mm, in Country. I wonder where it is coming from, since the official story is that it hasn't been ordered in years!

It seems there is a quiet revolution going on the active parts of the Army and Marines. The Beretta is being quiescently displaced with the 1911. It is, so far, all unofficial, but it is going forward relentlessly nonetheless. I, for one, think this clandestine evolution represents a great step forward, but, like all positive developments, it must be kept quiet. "Good news" is always "bad news" in our upside-down age!

/John

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, March 6, 2006, at 23:54:48 (ZULU)

"...the majority now are for the "old" 1911 pistol in 45ACP!"

As they say, 300,000,000 Elvis fans can't be wrong.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 00:34:10 (ZULU)

Sarge,

I was thinking about your delema. I am thinking that a slower powder may help, IMR7828, H1000, H870 (This one may be too slow). Try using magnum primers too. I use Federal Gold Medal 215Ms in my >300 Win mag with good results. I was wondering, do you neck size? Neck sizing cut my groups by a third. The only drawback is you may have to bump the shoulder back about every 5th loading. If my brain housing group serves me right the .300WSM parent case is the .404 Jeffreys (I got one of those too). The .300WSM is unusually thick at the web. I reccomend that you anneal it about 1/3 the way down from the mouth of the case. If you don't know how I can explain it to you, it's not hard. This will soften it up enough to fill the chamber upon firing more readily.

Try this too, take a case and size the neck just enough to allow you to press fit the bullet in to the mouth. Hand feed it into the chamber and close the bolt. Carefully extract the case and bullet together. Mic the OAL and seat about .003-.005" deeper. This should get you some results worth your while.

Don't worry about OAL, I single load mine anyway, keeps the brass from being all scratched up (dirt magnet, could cause chamber wear).

I hope this helps you out. Oh! meant to ask, are your initials T.M.?

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 00:34:31 (ZULU)

Sarge;

One of the guys at Savageshooters who went on the safari with us had a lot of trouble finding a load that would shoot. He ended up with 180gr Swift Scirroccos and it was brutal on everything he shot. Accuracy was pretty decent to. Not nearly as much wind drift as one would think.

Here's the load info from his safari article:

Load Development:

Load development took quite some time with the Scirocco’s but they were showing good progress. After some 16 loads, 6 powders and 2 bullet styles (180 grain Nosler Accubonds and Swift Scirocco) I was able to narrow it down to one load and began fine-tuning. Eventually I was able to work up a load that would shoot three shot groups at 3/8” at 100 yards, with speed in excess of 3150 FPS per my Millennium Chronograph at 10 feet.

This is the load that I ended up choosing:

Case: Winchester new or once fired

Case Trim Length: 2.095 inches

Bullet: Swift Scirocco 180 grain

Ballistic Coefficient: 0.521

Powder: Reloader #19

Charge: 68.7 grains

Primer: CCI 200

Overall length: 2.885 inches

Average Velocity 10 shots: 3,135 FPS

Highest Velocity: 3,155 FPS

I would guess that you could get similar or better with the 180SMK.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 01:00:28 (ZULU)

Wes - Yes, gas is dangerous as all get out and only use it when no other solution is about. In El Sal, years ago, it was the only thing available to clean up two never fired 106 RRs and we really wnated to fire them into the Gs'. ALL sources of ignition is banned from the area and that includes dry climate static electricty. What I mean by that is that using gas is banned when the humidity is down as a statis spark will ignite that witchs' brew. Main reason for the smiley face. :)

Dalton - You definately fell into a good deal. Do becareful with the laws concerning explosives if you have purchsed exploding .50 Cal rounds.

Doc - Sorry to hear about the passing of you buddies wife. She is in a better place and comfortable after a period of pain.

Ken - Thank you! You know how old men have trouble understanding sometimes. I was getting confused there and didn't understand what you were saying and needed some clarification. I thought you had left the M118 on the pallets and I knew that had to be a misunderstanding on my part. The Raufoss is great for going through thick walls and scaring the crap out of the Bs inside. :)

Spud - Take care, Kerosene is just as dangerous as gas with cosmoline and can cause a situation of "flame on!" :)

Dam medicjim, you take all the fun out of cleaning old weapons! Why woudl you inject common sense into this? :)

WR Moore - Did not know that, thought they made for them, had one in pump 12 gauge and thought it had come from Sears. That is what happens when you try to remember something from the 50s and 60s. :) Dam now I feel old again.

Mike - It is easy to say good things about good equipment. You know I hate drag bags and we talked about trigger goo after your stalk. It is a no brainer and you did a good job.

Well going to go play rest the old body for the night guys. You all stay safe. :)

Hold Hard Guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 01:58:43 (ZULU)

Try GoJo hand cleaner to remove the cosmo or any other grease. It works. Nuff said.

Giving up shooting and going back to golf. Ain't worth a shit at either but I got more excercise chasing the ball.

Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 02:02:12 (ZULU)

Ya know... it just occurred to me....

In a normal crowd, I wouldn't even mention how I actually cleaned the last cosmoline coated rifle...

However... none of you bums I've met so far is normal, so this may be within your means...

Fill a bin with gasoline, then cover it over with a 2.5 gallon fire extinguisher setup with either AFFF foam or FFFP foam... the foam all but completely supresses the vapors (for approx 20 minutes per application) and you can work safely right through it....

AFFF - aqueous film forming foam

FFFP - film forming flouroprotient foam (the stuff used for sub-surface injection for big oil tank fires) - beware, stinks like hell later if you don't clean it up

medicjim
Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 03:14:42 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Are you trimming your cases? If not your pressure can spike conciderably. We are talking anything over 2.100"

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 03:31:50 (ZULU)

Damn!

I learn somethin' new here all the time.

Glad as hell I didn't have any Kerosene left over after the oil tank cleaning! Good thing 'cuz I woulda used it as suggested. (somewhere in my memory.)

Thanks Rick.

Semper-Fi!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 04:30:34 (ZULU)

re: Cosmoline removal

Some of the sources I've read talk about boiling water or steamers as a removal method. This has the enormous advantage of avoiding the flamability/explosive issues of solvents. Really hot water will evaporate away, leaving bare metal for the next step.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/cosmoline/index.asp

Hand steamers are available for purchase from home improvement retailers and are relatively inexpensive.

If you are in the field and either have enough pull or are stealthy, hot water pressure washers at a self-serve (hand) car wash would likely do the trick too.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 09:18:16 (ZULU)

Marius - Sarge - please check your email - re raffle and get back to me......

thanks

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, VA, USA Under God - Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 16:54:39 (ZULU)

Gents,on the subject of cosmoline removal. I have found that Brake-kleen,made by CRC,removes grease,oil,cosmoline and other contaminants from metal surfaces without any residue.However,after treatment,a thin film of oil should be applied to any metal surface to protect it from rust.It also eats polycarbonate plastics,rubber and painted surfaces.

Boris,congrads on the win.Do you remember the Miss Tropicana photo shoot a couple of years ago.

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 17:55:59 (ZULU)

Has anyone used that new 3 way trimmer from rcbs? It trims the case and deburrs the inside and out all at the same time.

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 19:34:32 (ZULU)

Bolt,

"GoJo hand cleaner .."

Doesn't GoJo contain pumice or some other abrasive? Or am I thinking of some other hand cleaner?

I've found that using gun scrubber is pretty effective at cutting grease. Personally, I prefer nasty chemicals with vapors and the possibility of fires and explosions. Keeps things interesting. Better living through chemistry.... ;8-p

Duman

Duman
Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 21:24:46 (ZULU)

Gojo does have pumice in it,I use it about thirty times a day.

Catman,what is the best way to bag some crows,a local store is having a contest,Ive never tried hunting them.

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 21:33:15 (ZULU)

Cosmo;

I have been using the foaming engine degreaser in a sray can. Spray on, let soak, then wash off with water. Letting the parts warm up first in sunlight or by a stove/heater helps.

Diesel fuel works but the dangers should be obvious.

Go-Jo has a creamy version. At one time, no hand cleaners had pumice in them.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 23:16:33 (ZULU)

Cosmoline,

Getting this stuff off of metal is easy. The stock on the otherhand is a bitch! I either stick the stock out in the hot sun and wipe it off every 3 hours or so. The other more direct approach is to use a heat gun. Not too much to crack the wood, but to sweat it out over several sessions. I then lightly sand it. Once it's all but gone (Not sweating so much) I hand rub the stock with boiled lin seed oil. Works like a champ. I get folks offering me $100 to do up thier stocks. The lin seed oil seals in the rest of the cosmoline so it's not a sticky mess after a serious shooting session.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 01:08:57 (ZULU)

Cosmoline II,

I got a metal walpaper tray and toss the metal parts in solvent, usually laquer thinner, cover the tray with tin foil and check it in the morning. I'll stick it outside to keep the wife from complaining of the fumes. Agitate the tray before you rinse in HOT SOAPY WATER. If you get the parts hot enough in the water the water will evaporate and oil when it's dry.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 01:13:47 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

The best way to bag crows???

Get about 50 pounds of grain and mix it with 20 pounds of meat leftovers from the butcher's shop and leave it in a field for a few days - then come back and you will have all the crows you want - dynamite helps - a lot ;)

... but if that's not your style, then get a 12 ga shot gun, and a case of Remington trap loads (7-1/2s) and a call (electric is nice). Use a modified choke.

Cosmoline... I use mineral spirits. Easier on the skin and not flamable, for the most part. It's slow, but it works.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 01:30:20 (ZULU)

Catshooter,

.22 shorts are fun on crows too. I like the dynamite idea especially, not readily available on the left coast. My .17 Rem makes nice pink/black clouds though. LOL.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 01:36:14 (ZULU)

All,

My good frind told me today that "Mr. Rodgers" was a Marine Sniper. Anyone got the skinny on this?

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Feinsteinograd, Supreme Soviet, Peoples Republik of California - Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 01:40:36 (ZULU)

re: Internet rumours / etc

http://www.snopes.com/ - the gold standard

It's offline at the moment or I would look up Mr. Rogers for you.

In its absence, check this out:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl-mr-rogers.htm

Short answer - no military service of any kind.

After graduating from Rollins College in Florida with a degree in music in 1951, he immediately embarked on a broadcasting career — a career that went uninterrupted for nearly 50 years, even while he studied for a Bachelor of Divinity degree, eventually becoming an ordained minister in 1962. Far from hiding a secret past as a trained killer, Fred Rogers was an exemplary individual who devoted his entire adult life to educating and bettering the lives of children, and as such he deserves to be remembered.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 02:53:18 (ZULU)

I like that Idea,I think put some meat and grain out and pick them off with my 308,if I use the Sierra MTK's will there be anything left?I think that I have to bring them into the store to get paid.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 16:54:04 (ZULU)

My Beeman and I now have seven confirmed voles and one probable. The probable limped off and I found hair, so it is VERY probable. My accomplice is the magpie that sits on my back fence. He eats the evidence.

The attempt at jump-starting the Iraqi civil war appears to have flopped. A plausible sounding summary is available at the link you get when you click my name.

CDC'
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 17:37:23 (ZULU)

HA!...

The weather looks good this Friday - in the 50's and no rain.

Gonna go shooting for the first time in a while - the new .204 gets a first try (HEAR THAT, YA' OL' MANGY 'yote Bate ;)... I know yo' is out there in dem bushes! Get yo' shiftless ass back here!!

Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz... hee hee hee hee ;)))))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 19:21:25 (ZULU)

Kujawa,

You're gonna shoot crows with a 308? What's an MTK?

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 20:49:42 (ZULU)

Im hoping to,Match kings.Or the 12gauge.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 21:45:35 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

Match Kings are "SMK", as in 190-SMK (Sierra Match Kings)... that's the language here.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 21:49:09 (ZULU)

CDC,

How are you going about vole hunting? I thought they were like moles or gophers. My yard has mounds all over it from gophers or whatever. The only time I ever actually see one is when my Malamute digs one out. His holes are worse than the mounds.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 21:53:17 (ZULU)

The 168's,I really shouldnt use it but it would be nice to shoot somthing other than a papar target.

I was talking to a guy at the last match,he's been one of the top shooters there everytime,he has the same rifle as me 1-12 twist barrel and everything.He told me to switch to the 155 palma,The problem that I will have is that my chamber is way too long to load that round.I think that I only have about .200 of the 168's in the case.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 22:46:24 (ZULU)

I forgot to ask what about the good ol 22lr rifle,will that take down a crow,I think that they have pretty thick feathers.Ive never shot one.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 22:49:06 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

Crows are all mouth and bluff - under that big-assed coat of feathers, there's nothing to them - you can kill one with your Red Rider BB gun ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 01:14:04 (ZULU)

Doc: "How are you going about vole hunting?"

They burrow in the snow, on the lawn. They eat long runs in the grass. As the snow melts, openings of burrows are exposed. The voles come out a couple of inches to feed. Not much sticks up past the banks of the runs. As fast and nervous as those little dudes are, the shots are fun.

CDC'
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 02:09:08 (ZULU)

Not a 'sniper' round, but I have come in LUST for a lever action .38-40. OR a .44 mag I can convert.

Any offers or leads to one?

Thanks!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 02:44:43 (ZULU)

Night visions questions...

I plan to buy either a MUM or PVS14 for use in conjunction with an aimpoint (on my AR), and also for for Search and Rescue with a helmet mount,

Suggestions, advice, which one might fit my use profile better?

The mum comes with hand select tubes, ITT data card and the following spec:

System Specifications

Image Intensifier Generation 3 US

Resolution 64-72 lp/mm

Magnification 1x (3x optional)

Lens System 26 mm f1.2

FOV 40¢ª

the PVS 14 comes sealed from ITT (no hand select), no data card mentioned and the specs are:

Image Intensifier - Generation 3 US

Resolution - 64 lp/mm

Magnification - 1x (3x or 5x optional)

Lens System - 26 mm f1.2

FOV - 40¢ª

Prices with pretty much every accessory one might want are in the $3500 range for either...

medicjim
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 02:49:49 (ZULU)

MedicJim,

I have an ANPVS14D (hand selected with data sheet) and I really like it a lot. I would never mount it in a quick release mount from GG&G to go behind my NVD compatable Aimpoint for my M4 becuase that is against the rules out here in CA. But I suppose that you could do that, and it probably works really really well....

Micahel
CA, - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 03:20:44 (ZULU)

da,mn.,. sat ere with Jon B an <Jr n we are wrecked,

mo fo

Pete

Peter Lincoln
d - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 04:02:24 (ZULU)

All,

Anyone know why .223 ammo is getting scarce? I have a tough time finding 7.62x39, and when I do it seems to have doubled in price! I can't seem to find any Israeli .223 around either. That is some good stuff there.

Michael,

I have been thinking about nite-vis for a while, what do you think of the one you got" I am used to using either the AN PVS 4 and the AN PVS 7B in the Corps. I just don't want to plunk down 4k for something that either I may never need or something that will fiz out.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 05:31:13 (ZULU)

Anyone,

What is the bullet diameter on the 5.45x39? I am thinking of a bolt gun, or a T/C barrel to play with.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 05:34:13 (ZULU)

re: surplus ammo

Here is a repost from rec.guns

From: SnipeUNblue@aol.com

Date: Sun, Mar 5 2006 8:19 am

Groups: rec.guns

The (US) Surplus Ammunition SITREP For 2006

Well, everyone needs to read carefully this thread then PLEASE

pass the information along.

Let us begin with the 7.62x39 Russian manufactured ammunition situation for 2006. Their is NO Issues with ANY Import Paperwork, Regulations, Customs Shipment clearing, nor any other shipping issues on this side of the Atlantic ! This is from the Importer SSI that imports Wolf brand and DKG who imports Brown Bear brand.

Anyone who wishes PLEASE feel free to copy and post this infor else

where as long as its OK with the Frugal Admins.

What is a continuing problem on the Russian Docks is the Russian Mafia which on occasion brings delays.

The Russian Government Contracts were ALL Filled by Mid January 2006. Wolf and Brown Bear are up to FULL capacity production for their Civilian Contract commitments. However, Both have said that supply will NOT catch-up with demand until the END of 2006. Here is another BUT; If the Russian Government gets more opportunity to sell ammo to Iraq, Afganistan, China, or anyone else then production cuts will occur again. For now NO such opportunities appear on the horizon.

Prices Will NOT go back to $100 per 1000 round case however. This due to the well know cost increases in transportation.

Now for the Really BAD NEWS !

First - the 308 Surplus ammunition situation. The QUALITY Surplus like South African, Portugues, Radway Green, and Hirtenburger is about to Disappear for good. The Portugues is GONE except for what is in the pipeline. The same with Radway Green. As for the South African it will begin to run out starting in about July 2006 and then when its gone its GONE. Have you noticed the climb in price on these well it is going to get worse. The time is soon coming when ALL QUALITY 308 Surplus will be gone leaving ONLY such poor choices as India. Yes, ALL QUALITY 308 Gone by the end of 2007 but probably much MUCH sooner even with Price increases.

Second - the 5.56 surplus situation. Again the Quality Surplus is ALL but GONE NOW. What is in the pipeline is IT. Radway Green - get it while you can. South African is GONE except for what distributers and retailers have already.

So what will take the Quality low priced Surplus ammunition's place ? Well it WON'T be LOW Cost. This is in reference to 5.56 and 308. Look for Aguila to start exporting .223 / 5.56 to the US in the some what near future. Efforts are being made to convince the Aguila people and the Privy Partisan ( Yugoslave) sources to produce M193 Spec ammo and package it in plain brown cases for sale in the US. M193 Spec is vital to avoid the problems such as Backed-out primers and too long case necks with such brands as Olympic.

I said Cost would NOT be low. Well Aguila would run about .20 plus

transportation cost per round to the Distributers OUCH ! The Privy

Partisan would be the same.

Keep in mind that I did NOT say a shortage of 5.56 or 308 in general. I said QUALITY Brands and sources of Surplus will disappear. Indian etc. will be here but STAY Away from ANY Troublesome Brand. What the future of Military calibre ammo is can simply be put this way; Militay Surplus will DISAPPEAR Completely. ALL AMMO will be Civilian in type or if you prefer "De-Militarized" . Aguila has been told by distributers here in the US to use M193 specs but I am unsure if that includes Crimped Boxer type Primers. It will use Boxer primers for sure. Aguila produces ALL of the 5.56 ammo for the Mexican Government so they are NOT new to that calibre.

Both the Aguila and Privy Partisan people have been around for Decades even though the packaging and Brand names have in some cases changed over the years. The both produce decent quality ammo and there is NO reason to expect any change there. Privy Partisan has sold under the Brand name of HOTSHOT ammo.

For those who are interested, Privy Partisan produces the Wolf Gold Brand of ammo.

Speaking of Wolf ammo; the Steel case will cause accellerated Extractor wear especially for ARs and Mini 14s.

Well I will add anything I have forgotten later.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 07:13:19 (ZULU)

"Not a 'sniper' round, but I have come in LUST for a lever action .38-40. OR a .44 mag I can convert..."

Sharon: Marlin 1894 (S, FG, etc) lever guns are purdy goodly and are available in .357, .41Mag, .44Mag.... and I thhhhinkkk in .45 Long Colt as well....

Take care all -

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, VA, USA Under God - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 11:17:43 (ZULU)

Gents: greetings from A'stan. Whatta shithole. Amenities aside, this place has promise. The garrison meter is pegging in my last AO--it barely registers here from what I've seen.

Also, quite the international character here, complete with characters. Made a fast friend with a Kiwi Sergeant Major. That may prove productive down the road for travel arrangements. May have done an exchange with his unit 20-odd years ago. We seem to remember the same brawl on the south island.

The french COL was not amused when i asked for a shot of "us." I told the kid to caption the photo with "Maj Joe accepts the unconditional surrender..." Oh yeah...no sense of freakin' humor. I thought they were busy surrendering to Algeria, but no; here they are. More to follow on what the heck they are up to...can't be too dangerous...

Travelled too lite; sure as hell froze last night! But the snowy peaks sure are perty...perty damned steep; hate to have to fight up one of those bad boys! Our kids who did and are must be in phenomenal shape.

Well, I came and saw; now to go and pack back in the heat. Too bad the AF doesn't give frequent flyer miles. I'd qualify for a trip to ice station zebra by now.

Boris
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 11:30:10 (ZULU)

MedicJim, Some NVG ramblings after building a dozen various from parts(not expert testimony--garage mechanic at work here)

I'm not sure what hand-select means per any standard--but if you can make an opportunity to turn on a pile of them and have a lookie thru--you will find wide variations in brightness and clarity tube to tube. You'd do well to pick one this way.

The army tosses them aside willy-nilly for some tough specs--and i suspect these rejects go to the commercial market (though I do not know this). I have seen rejects that are as good or better than non-rejects along the way, and placed these back into service (we're talking big bucks, as you know)--so some rejects are fine as froghair. Any blemish, any hint of spotting, any focal issues (even ones caused by mis-assembly of the stops in the lens) will cause a rejection-rightly or wrongly. Almost every C-- and all D tubes are under warranty still, so these go back to the manufacturer. Hmmm. Dunno what they do with them, but if the cost is the same---take the one that is selected against any dang standard over one that is not; chickenwire is annoying as hell---and little failures lead to early deaths of these thingies. And if it is remotely feasible--go and try them yourself. After a few---you will know good from bad. Also, noise in the tube (humming, like a transormer) is very bad. It has only a couple of hours before failure.

The circuit card is in the Batt box, and these do not vary much from type to type. A dual AA system is superior to a single AA for longevity. Most are doubled. NVEC makes a single--steer clear. The card isn't doing anything except gain control. On off is direct drive. MIL units must be attached to a shunt, found in a weapons mount or helmet mount, but otherwise, a batt box and housing is just a chunk of easily damaged plastic. Try to stay clear of that little plastic battery cap (rectangular, with rounded corners)--it has two plastic ears and a conductive bridge that break off with a hasty insert of fresh batts. Or, if you must--buy about twenty spare caps. NVEC makes a unit with hinged cam-locked compartments that seem to be soldier proof so far. Note: Housings are not soldier proof in any form.

The 7D is a more robust design, but makes for a lousy weapon mounting solution (heheh). But, with the cost savings over a 14, you can buy a dang IR pointer and shoot from the hip!

But at any rate---64+ line/pair resolution is as good as it gets without a national defense budget backing you up...

If you stumble across "autogated/ unfilmed" or "Gen IV"--spend extra as these tubes will outlast anything made. Use in full daylight too; which means no more shuffle on the rails...I've yet to see one fail :((---only the type you are looking at. But as i said, failure by army standards may be "for sale" by industry standards...caveat emptor.

Boris
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 12:06:14 (ZULU)

Re: 223 ammo.

I heard that Black Hills is backlogged 500 thousand rounds. If so, that might be having an effect. I guess folks are shooting a lot...

Lindy
Very Near Where Cheney Shot a Lawyer, U.S.A. - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 12:30:09 (ZULU)

Sharon...

>"but I have come in LUST for a lever action .38-40. OR a .44 mag I can convert."<

Kewl... I bought a pair of 44/40 (44WCF) Bisleys, and I'm sorry that I didn't go to the 38-40.

For a 1873 in 38/40, go to:

http://www.emf-company.com/1873-lever-action-rifle.htm

For 1873 Single action pistols (Colts Patent Firearms ;)) - go here

http://www.emf-company.com/1873-model-single-action-revolver-hartford.htm

Get these guys catalogue - none of the other companys that I know of, have the 38/40 chambering.

There is a company that does conversions of the Rossi 1892 lever gun - it has to start as a 44/40, 45LC, or other large rim - they can't convert a 38-357.

The 1892 is the strongest of the pistol caliber lever guns, and at some point, I would like to do that. They bore and sleeve the orginal barrel, so you can't tell the difference.

I have a bunch of 38/40 brass, and loading dies... but no gun :((

I'll fix that as soon as the current poopoo is over.

Uh oh... Piggie Pete has been in the sause AGAIN!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 14:05:05 (ZULU)

I just mounted my new scope its the 8.5x25x50 Mark IV with the TMR Reticle.Went to the range last night.First five were just right of the dot about half an inch.Moved it two clicks left looked throught the scope and saw two sets of waving targets.I sure that is the famous mirage everyone talkes about.Anyway I moved it two clicks left and took three more shots they were right on left to right but an half inch low,next two were right on.I was fight to get done because I was running low on light.Will mirage make you shoot low or was it the lower light?

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 15:15:42 (ZULU)

Thanks Ken and 'lito.

I have several Marlin rifles, including a .44 mag. that I had converted to a .44-40. From short round barrel to long hex barrel. I also have the 1894 Century Limited .44-40 but it is 'too purdy' to shoot (also the '95 & '97 CLs).

I looked at my Rossi Puma .44-40 with thoughts of converting it (cost less than a Marlin), but it is a round barreled carbine. My gunsmith has gone out of business. He will do a rebarrel as a 'hobby gunsmith' but does not want to do a round to hex conversion... barrel band, magazine hanger, forearm wood, etc., etc...

I am not particularly fond of the '73... I don't think it's 'purty' and it has a fragile mechanism. I DO like the '92 (win) and the '94 (Marlin & Win).

I guess 'push come to shove,' I may convert my Rossi, or bite the bullet and get the '73. I just finished loading 500 rds...

Thanks all,

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 15:16:25 (ZULU)

Lindy - LMAO! Just don't go quail hunting ..... ;8-p

Pete Lincoln - Universal translation - yer wasted, duuude!

Boris - Thx for NVG info. Good stuff. Stay safe, so we can get you your SWFA stuff.

Milsurp - it was my understanding (per one of my dealers) the US entered into an agreement with foreign nations, via UN, not to ship milsurp to the US after 2005/6. Any truth to this?

Stuck in CA for a couple more days. Thought CA was supposed to be sunny. It's been raining steady for weeks, rivers are flooding, and everything is growing mold. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot ?!?

Duman

Duman
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 15:53:38 (ZULU)

Damn, did we get drunk. finnished a whole crate of beer and emptied 2 minibars.. hangover was bad this morning mind,

Been doing our cultural thing today,sight seeing. IWA starts tommorow.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 15:59:48 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thanks for the heads up on Black Hills. Just got off the phone with them and the backlog is more like a million rounds of .223. They are having problems getting enough once fired G.I. brass. I ordered 2,000 rounds of .223 and they gave me a tentative shipping date of 12 May. .22-250 is not a problem.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 16:38:43 (ZULU)

Duman-the rumor that Kalifornia is always sunny is tourist propaganda. Kali does have seasons: Mud, flood, rain & fire.

WR Moore
Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 18:01:27 (ZULU)

Gentlemen:

I have a Springfield M1A1 competition setup.

I have the receiver mounted in a plastic M-14 stock. It has a fairly tight fit now. The rear of the receiver is not touching the stock, with a gap about 3/32 inch. The wood stock I pulled this out of had the receiver bedded and touching most of the receiver on the bottom (as I remember).

Can someone provide me links to web pages or advise on what I need to do with this setup, if it needs to be bedded in the plastic M-14 stock.

If so, please try sending the information through the email link as I am not always able to follow Sniper Country postings.

Thank you.

Don / Radio-Chaser

I chase radios!

Don / Radio-Chaser
Langhorne, pa, United States of Amercia - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 20:18:26 (ZULU)

Duman wrote:

Milsurp - it was my understanding (per one of my dealers) the US entered into an agreement with foreign nations, via UN, not to ship milsurp to the US after 2005/6. Any truth to this?

My understanding is that in exchange for other trade considerations, mainland China agreed not to sell arms or ammunition to the US market. That was a few years ago now.

No problem, we'll take delivery of that in Canada :-)

http://www.marstar.ca/

Don't know about more recent arrangements.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 9, 2006, at 22:12:41 (ZULU)

Hey, did you hear som'thin.............

like...................

RIFFLE RAFFLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah....Ken??? :)))

and in other news

HOLLYWOOD!! way to go JOE. so have you heard anything yet from SWFA?

'lito fund.....

i'm in..... how much do we need to have her wacked again...did i say that out loud? I ment for the leagel fund, to pay for them blood suckin lawyers. yeah, yeah thats it.

Jim B.
AZ., you cant win the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless. - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 00:33:58 (ZULU)

oh yeah for all the 5.11 talk last week here are a pair of links to two good deals.

the first one is, The 5.11 HRT boots, two pairs for under $90 bucks

the second is, 5.11 Tactical Pants (royal robbins) - Digital Camo Desert, under $20

if your intrested? cut and paste.

http://lapolicegear.com/5tahbo.html

http://www.lapolicegear.com/5tapadicade.html

Jim B.
AZ., you cant win the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless. - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 00:50:14 (ZULU)

Calvin Haxton...

Reply bounces. Thanks for the link, but it's a bit pricey fer us 'po folks...'

For those interested:

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/index.tpl

Fine lookin' pieces, however.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 03:44:33 (ZULU)

OK,

So let me get this straight, the f*@$ing UN is meddling in our shi! again! WTF! Or is this a bad rumor? Will there be mil spec ammo available from domestic arsenals? ie Lake City, WCC, FC ect? I am not a big fan of mil spec for accuracy anyway. I like the price and I like the fact it was available in case lots.

I don't want to sound like an alarmist but is this a step in the direction of international arms control? I know the commiecrats are salivating for this to impliment thier socialist revolution.....

A rumor I heard (i've been getting a lot of bunk lately) is that as far as 7.62x39mm, the Iraqi National Army needs it. I doubt this because the entire country is a huge ammo dump.

I am skeptical of Mexican ammo however. I tried the Radway Green .308 and it sucked harder than Monica. Well I am sure glad that I pick up brass at the range. I bought about 60K primers about 12 years ago when the Klintons were redfining what rights were. Still got em!

I think I am going to get that swager after all. Casting is cool (no pun intended) but swaging is the ticket for large and more rapid results.

Anyone tried the rimfire swaging kit from Corbin? Would like to know the ins and outs of it. The other idea was to cast and plate bullets.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 10, 2006, at 04:42:35 (ZULU)

Well fellas, we lost another one.

We buried my grandfather today- He was 89. Eldo Bahl spent 32 months overseas during WWII - made it to SSG and back down- served with the engineers in N Africa and Italy and was then posted to the 86th Mountain Infantry (10th Mountain Div)(not exactly voluntarily- "you guys are now infantrymen. Welcome to the 10th Mountain") for the Po Valley, Rome, and Arno campaigns- and stayed with them through Austria.

He didn't talk much about his time in the infantry, but had a bunch of funny engineer stories. He was pretty emphatic about me keeping my head down when I deployed for Desert Storm. He said, "the first thing you do is find cover, then try to figure out what's going on."

One of the proudest things I've done as an officer was to have the privilege of presenting him with a Bronze Star.

I'll miss you grandpa.

Doc Mac
Peoples Republic of, IL, - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 05:01:39 (ZULU)

Doc Mac,

Sorry to hear about your Grandpa. :( We are losing the very best who made this country the very greatest. I feel though that with this generation serving now we do have a bright future.

My Grandpa (My Dads dad) was an air raid warden in Galsgow in WWII. My wifes Grandpa (still with us) was a PT boat crewman in the pacific in WWII. We love to trade war stories. He was killing Japs and I was killing Iraqis. We love to make the liberals writhe in agony as we do so. He is 82. May God keep him at his right side forever.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 10, 2006, at 05:15:49 (ZULU)

Hey guys...

No 'lito fund, OK?... but you'z raggity bumz are the best of the best!

However... if any of you guys know the where abouts of "Master Kung-Foo Sniper", tell him I gots work for him ;))

Gots a bit of good news. I was told today by the top of the court services that I should get my paper poopoo together and they will start an investigation against the "Church Lady"... the court appointed investigator that told me that she felt really strongly that I should have my son going to regular church services and he should be in formal religious training.

Well... I got so much documented (neutral, third party) against her for perjury, collusion, witness tampering (she's the tamperee'!), and conspiracy... she's going down.

The church lady does this investigation thing and writes a report on the parents fitness. And in report, she keep a log of all the people that she contacts.

I already have sworn statements from school people on the church lady's contact list (that she stated spoke against me):

- A school psychologist... the psychologist was on maternity leave since before the case was started, until after it was over... and says, "I never heard of Ms. McGrath, never sent her anything, never received any mail from her, I haven't been in school in almost two years".

- Another school psychologist, says the same thing..., "Neither I nor anyone in my department has heard of Ms. McGrath, we have received no requests for information, no signed releases or anything else, and we have not been contacted by anyone from the court system regarding Jason X Xxxxxx" (Ruggus Rattus).

- School vice principal... "I never heard of a Ms. McGrath and have no record of receiving any mail, documents, or requests for information

- School Principal... "We now nothing of Ms. McGrath. She has never contacted anyone at this school".

I got so much on this bitch that it's gonna turn - It'll take about a week to put this together and file the complaint.

And I'm going to file for a new trial on the grounds of perjury and misconduct by the states investigator... I should be back in court in 4 to 6 weeks.

If the church lady rats out the others, my ex could be looking at some real problems... but even without that, she'll not have a lawyer, cuz her lawyer is implicated in the tampering...

HA!... Double HA!!

This is a Good day!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 08:23:44 (ZULU)

Bad Karma - re: bullet swaging

So you're talking about swaging .224 jacketed rifle bullets using the Corbin system and recycled .22LR brass?

I've read accounts of such, seems like a lot of work unless you're trying to make a design that is not commercially available, given that there are no shortage of .224 dia jacketed projectiles available for bulk sale.

With swaged projectile production, you have to get the .22LR brass squeaky clean *inside* and out, and you either have to cast the tiny pure lead cores or pay for the pure lead wire and precisely cut the core slugs that will be used.

I read that one source of pure lead for casting is dental X-ray film carriers, so if you connect with a busy dental practice you can get it from them. (The carriers are their post-usage scrap).

The alternative to all of the above is bulk .224 jacketed projectiles which are readily available from Midway, Mid South, etc. The Winchester 55g FMJBT are a little rough, but the Remington or Hornady version should be pretty nice.

1000 55g FMJ BT Remington .224 dia w/cannelure sell for $41/1000 from Midway (also available in 2000,4000 and 8000 packages). Unless you place no value on your time I doubt you could come anywhere near matching that in unit cost.

If you step up to a hollowpoint design, which would a fairer comparison to what you could be swaging, 1000 55g PLHP Remington .224 dia w/cannelure sell for $73/1000 from Midway.

Still pretty low unit cost per projectile. Unless you're really good, I doubt you could swage a more accurate projectile.

Of course, you still have to do all the other reloading steps to convert those projectiles into loaded cartridges.

At the other end of the spectrum, you can still purchase commercial "white box" ammo by Winchester, Federal and Remington.

Federal "American Eagle" .223 Rem 55g FMJBT case of 500 is $100 (Midway)

There are other sources for "white box", of course.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 10:10:31 (ZULU)

'lito, GOOD NEWS! Hang in there, we're all rooting for you!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 13:34:20 (ZULU)

I know that with the 92fs beretta you can add shims to the slide to tighten it up.Could you do that to an old ruger P85.

P.S. Yeah I know its a ruger but it means more to me.

Jon Kujawa
Friday, March 10, 2006, at 15:16:59 (ZULU)

Been busier than you know what. Can not believe how much things can get screwed up by ........ never mind. :)

Bad Karma - Asks <<What is the bullet diameter on the 5.45x39?>> 5.45mm ?, I ask smart a**edly :) 214 Cal.

'Lito great news man, hang in there and bring 'it' home and then bring Rug Rat home. :)

Well back to the grind and fun.

Hold hard Guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 15:56:52 (ZULU)

Kujawa,

"I know that with the 92fs beretta you can add shims to the slide to tighten it up." Shimming a slide ?!?

Duman

Duman
Friday, March 10, 2006, at 16:05:11 (ZULU)

Litto greta news. Damm Great news.

Rick, better busy than bored.

Anyone got some extra knees around I sure would like to be able to run the 2 miles again and be deployed right now. Damm State Department reuires it and I cant hardly walk for days after a two miler anymore. Can still hump hills and wlak for days. Have clearance will travel.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 17:58:42 (ZULU)

Doctor! Doctor!

I need help.

I'm left handed. I've seen the problem for a month now. The first shot goes right in the black. After that the shots start hitting either right on or 1MOA to the right. I've tried different loads with the same results. The rifle usually shoots .75 or better.

What's the diagnosis?

Thanks, guys.

Scott Smith
Friday, March 10, 2006, at 22:37:25 (ZULU)

Bad Karma:

"Anyone tried the rimfire swaging kit from Corbin? Would like to know the ins and outs of it. The other idea was to cast and plate bullets."

I have the Corbin swaging dies for .224 bullets and the kit for swaging the .22 cases. It does work.

If you do buy the setup, be sure to anneal and lube the cartridge cases before turning them into jackets. This makes it easier run the cartridge case through the die and less likely to punch the cartridge case bottom out.

I am not sure how accurate the bullets are compared to commercial bullets. My only rifle in that caliber is the Daewoo K-2. I have had groups as small as 1 inch at 200 meters with this rifle, but, i was shooting different loads into the same target and don’t know which load was the best. (just burning up miscellaneous loads). In this rifle standard military type ball ammo/loads shoot best, so I made up 52 grain bullets with the Corbin set up.

For those that are interested why I have a swager. I lived in California, felt the liberals were working towards banning bullets over the counter, inherited a bunch of money, and bought a Corbin set up in .224, .308, .38, .45.

Edited to add:

Lito, you sure you dont want a fund? You have my support!!

I chase radios!!

Don / Radio-Chaser
Lost in , Pennsylvania, United States of America - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 22:54:48 (ZULU)

Don / Radio-Chaser...

>"Lito, you sure you don't want a fund? You have my support!!"<

Normally, I turn down offers like this, but since you inherited a bunch of money, we can talk ;)))

>"I chase radios!!"<

What kind of radio do you chase??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 10, 2006, at 23:11:59 (ZULU)

Don,

I hear of a die that "bleeds" off excess lead. I think it's a separate item from the 22RF kit. I too have a K2! I seem to remember it having a 1/7 twist to it. I too am worried about the gun grabbers here in CA. The gun club I belong to told CA DOJ not to ever come back! The DOJ is having vaginal angina over it. They were shooting AP into our steel targets anyway. Good riddens to bad rubbish.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 01:01:33 (ZULU)

Don,

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 01:02:08 (ZULU)

Anyone,

The new 90gr SMK....I understand that a 1/6.5 min is needed to stableize this bullet. I think this borders on the overkill in the weight class of .224" bullets. I bet throat erosion is pretty bad too. However, I'll bet it would be nice in a bolt gun with a 26" barrel in either 22-250 or .220 swift. I doubt that velocities would exceed the 3100 f/s range

I just got my sky screen bar for my Pact Model 1 chronograph, looking foreward to seeing how my handloads compare to the balistic charts. The load that seems to be the one of choice for my 1/7 AR is 23.5gr Varget, 75gr Hornady HPBT. I estemate the speed at around 2550 f/s. Amazing as it sounds it will knock down the rams at 500m.

Anyone shoot at Sac Valley in Ione?

I've been posting a lot since I've been on call....on call sucks

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 02:25:12 (ZULU)

re: spotting scopes - the quest for cheap qualify :-)

New kid on the block. Italian mfgr Konus Konuspot-80 20-60x80mm Spotting Scope Model 7120

http://www.konus.com/www.konus.com/fullview/7120full.htm

Jim Owens is selling it, says it's a good buy.

He was making favourable comparisons to the Kowa 821.

http://www.jarheadtop.com/KONUS.htm

Amazon, Optics Planet and Adorama are among those also retailing it.

Selling for $170.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002TXKEW/sr=8-1/qid=1142046829/ref=sr_1_1/002-6053443-1836824?%5Fencoding=UTF8

http://www.opticsplanet.net/konus-konuspot-80-80mm-3-1-spotting-scope.html#

Anyone have any first-hand experience with this product,

or have any field reports?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 03:18:53 (ZULU)

Jon K; Shim a slide???

Mike Miller; RUNNING shoes. Glucosine, chondroitron, about 20 bucks at Wally world. Heard good and bad about it- works great or doesn't do sh**t. Worked for me but it took about 3 weeks before I noticed any improvement.

Scott S; Post is too vague to make a diag. but if rifle does this with all loads... I would first check the bore for wear/erosion.

Just my .02

Joe Sinclair
Blitzburgh, PA, Steeler Nation - Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 03:31:45 (ZULU)

Karma,

Used to shoot the LR matches up there 1st Sunday of month. Will again someday.

Several folks on here shoot up there.

Joe Ducos, you there?

Joe runs the LR matches up there now.

Lotsa fun. Damned fine way to "get yer dope".

Semper-Fi!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 03:54:08 (ZULU)

Scott,

The first thing you should do is to get someone else with your approx. skill level (or higher) to shoot the rifle for you and see if that person gets the same result. It just might be your hold. Too much pressure here or there or not enough pressure, well you get the idea.

If that person gets the same result start looking closely at your equipment and loads. You doing your own reloading or are you using commercial ammo? Have you checked to make sure everything is torqued properly?

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 06:22:09 (ZULU)

Lito: That is some sunny newz, sir! I pray that you will be able to post more of it...

Joe Ducos: Haven't forgot--but will need to have the wife forward you a small package. Hint: If saw that pic on SWFA, you also saw the EXACT item...heheh. Maybe someday I'll be famous, eh?

BTW--The items you sent are in the fight...alot of middle men to get them there--but the 101st is using them...and they may never know who their benefactor was. But you should know what became of them anyway!

Back in the rear with the gear...all of a sudden, i realize I am in a four-star hotel here!

Boris
Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 12:48:24 (ZULU)

I was sitting in my truck, waiting for the bus to drop my kids off in front of the library. Like several of the kids from their school, they take the city bus. My twelve-year-old daughter stepped off the bus and walked toward me with an uncomfortable expression. When she and my ten-year-old son got in the truck, she told me that the fifth and sixth girls had been approached and asked personal questions by the geek who had left the bus after her. She said that he openly oggled the little girls as they walked by.

He was a 5'6"ish, pencil neck with every dork indicator but the Spock ears and the propeller beanie. He stood at the bus stop, playing with a cigarette lighter by opening, lighting and closing it. His intent, I suppose, was to look menacing to the small children.

I briefly considered calling the cops, but figured that they would be on his side. Killing him seemed like a worthwhile preventative measure, but a bit extravagant under the circumstances.

I told the kids that I would no longer wait in the truck, but would stand at the bus-stop.

That evening the kids told my wife, who told some friends at work. They told her about the morning newspaper report of a geek who followed a ten-year-old boy into that same library's bathroom and demanded some sick sexual favor at knifepoint. Cops were called and the pervert was arrested. Since that incident occurred at the same time and place as my daughter's incident, my guess is that it is the same geek.

What should I have done to protect normal people - including my kids -from this creepy-crawly?

Speaking of vermin: Got another confirmed vole. They are getting hard to come by. <Edited to add: Check that; four confirmeds for the day in six shots. One miss was due to imprecise sight picture and the wind got me on one. My kids are pleased. My wife isn't. These are offhand shots with peep-sights on teeny little critters. There's no pleasing her.>

CDC'
Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 14:49:32 (ZULU)

CDC - If it were me, I'd try to gather as much intel on him as possible...follow him home, get license plates...failing all that, I might even ask a police officer to request his ID....Bully tactics work both ways.

I'd make it absolutely clear that if he bothered my child, that would be his last day on earth...without ever saying anything of the sort. Never threaten, let the silent deeds imply the threat.

medicjim
Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 15:11:00 (ZULU)

Joe I was talking about shiming my old ruger P85,I would like to take out some of the play in the slide.

Went out with my new walther P22 today.I bought a box of fedral copper jacketed rounds.1 out of three would not load,is was not kicking the slide back to pull the next round in.I had two more types of 22lr rounds with.The CCI Mini mag,thirty or more rounds went through fine.Then I had four fiffty round boxes of remington thunderbolt.All went through with one missfire.The fedral was junk.

what would be suggested for a new semi auto 22.

Jon Kujawa
Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 22:43:27 (ZULU)

Jon K.,

I also had trouble with the Federal stuff not being hot enough to cycle a slide. My S&W 41 doesn't like it at all. I usually stick to Winchester or Remington because it doesn't seem to be as dirty as the cheap stuff. I'm also curious as to how you shim a slide. That's a new one on me.

'lito,

Keep coming with the good news. We're all prayin' for ya.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The stormy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 23:34:56 (ZULU)

CDC,

Call police because now adays they take that stuff very serious. Don't put yourself in contact with the Geek, because the police don't know you and don't know what they are getting into when they show up for a call like that.

Terry

Terry
Kansas City , Missouri, USA - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 00:38:44 (ZULU)

Well guys, we lost two more today on the unknown distance stuff. Wind was only 4 to 6 mph and not a factor just two guys that needed more work then we had time for in this one course.

Warning - We are having problems with the ARMs throw lever QR scope rings. The roll pin that holds the two pieces, yep, said a cheap a**ed roll pin, is letting go and the rings are loosening up from the ring base. I do not mean the scope base but the ring base as the ARMs rings are two pieces and they are held together by a roll pin. The rings start by going loose vertically and then go loose both vertically and horizontally. We have about 7 rings that are now loose with one loosening in only about 30 rounds and one came from the factory loose. None of the rings have over 2000 rounds on them. We are going to replace them all with LaRue Rings if I have my way on this one. I will never have another ARMs anything ever again. Nothing like a student shooting tight groups and suddenly can't hit s**t.

Sorry guys, rant off.

Hold hard and stay safe guys!!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 04:28:46 (ZULU)

Rick: NVEC uses ARMS, and Trijicon among a few others. Your problems specific to rings matches casual observations on other mounting designs from these folks. They fall apart, to be blunt. I would think the design is sound in most cases, but quality control, material and workmanship may be seriously degraded due to huge increases in contracts lately. I'd like to hear from hard users that have pre-2003 ARMs as to the endurance of said items. Perhaps this is a temporary thing and not a reason to write these off. And yeah, Larue is the way to go. GG&G seems to be a good, cheap solution at least for my acogs and eotechs. Danged NVEC is too specific to get away from the issued mounts. Some are molded in to the bodies of the devices....but where I can, I replace.

Bravo and I recently had this discussion offline. What say you Bravo?

Boris
Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 08:13:35 (ZULU)

I run into a farmer friend who let's us hunt his ground. He said he has a 308 Norma he wants to get rid of. I have never heard of this round, and my reloading manuals don't show it. Any help from here?

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 11:28:20 (ZULU)

re: .308 Norma Magnum - very close to .30-338 wildcat

Hornady 3rd edition and Lee second edition lists it.

It's a commercial standardized wildcat based on necking down .338 Win Magnum brass to .30 cal. Described as big game cartridge.

5.18cc useful case capacity

Hotest loading listed by Hornady is 180g @ 3100fps

Hotest loading listed by Lee is 180g @ 3051fps

(weights up 220g listed).

Rod=>Gary

if you want load data, I can probably scan and email as attachments

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 12:31:25 (ZULU)

Click my name for Mark Steyn's musings on the under-reported Moslem terrorist attack at UNC. The NYT doesn't want to know, and they definitely don't want you to know. They should change the masthead from "All the news that is fit to print" to "All the news that fits the template".

Gary Kaney: Never heard of Norma Magnums? What is this younger generation coming to?

Sierra's 2nd and 3rd manuals have load data for the .308 Norma. If the riffel is sound, you'll be okay if you start 10% off .300 WM and work up.

CDC'
Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 15:34:03 (ZULU)

Boris - I have had nothing but bad from ARMs since the 80s. I personnally did not know they went with the ARMs mount for the PVS-22 contract or I would have said something then. Their first mount to put the M3A on the M21, in hte mid 80s, was an abysmmal failure with the scope hitting the ground (ie mount failure and scope seperation from weapon) during firing within as few as 20 rounds that I know from personnal experience and I have heard reports of even fewer rounds from 10th Group. that instance was not due to cheap roll pins in their construction but cheap construction in their construction. I have not bought ARMs ever and will not. Reason mainly is that everytime I see something that the gov't has bought from ARMs it is cheap junk. However, I do have a much more personal reason as well that a few on here know about. As far as their ring design, they have constructed a base and then dovetailed a ring into the base and then held the whole mess together with a roll pin. Now I am not sure but the recoil impulse on the M24 is sure to beat the crap out of a roll pin. I do not know the reason for miling a seperate base for the ring unless it is cheaper, and they can sell cheap for a premium price.

Speaking of Bravo - I believe we have had discussions on this one before as well. :)

Quick buzz by guys.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 15:36:57 (ZULU)

Doctor! Doctor! (continued)

Thanks for the advice, guys. In the past, I've shot around 1/2MOA out to 600 without the problem. On Friday, five shots at 800 yards produced a 3" group for 3 of the shots. The other two didn't hit the 30" wide backboard. Back at 100 yards with a known good load, I see the problem (some shots 1MOA to the right for a left handed shooter).

At this point, I think it's me (maybe a flinch or trigger pull problem). I'm also thinking about switching from dovetail style to weaver style bases. I have over 1000 rounds through the barrel and I've only cleaned with patches (no brushes).

Scott Smith
Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 16:51:21 (ZULU)

CDC,

I had an experience back in the early 70's. I hadn't been out of the service too long and hung out in a little beer bar in San Bernardino, CA, across from the Marine Corp Reserve compound. There was a Capt with two tours under his belt that would come over from time to time. We had Vietnam in common although I wasn't qualified to stay in the same room with him if you compare experiences.

I came in one evening and he and some of his squad were there biting the heads off of little chickens (not literally) over the fact that a drunk had hit his Gunny's daughter with a pick up truck and gotten probation and a slap on the wrist. They were getting ready to go to Redlands, a near-by town, and find the guy.

I knew that they were about to make a serious, but understandable, mistake. I pulled the Capt. aside and asked his which was worse, getting hit or thinking about it. He thought about it for a while and finally said that getting hit wasn't as bad as he feared. I told him that the same thing could apply with the guy in Redlands.

I told him to "accidentally" bump into the guy one day, tower over him in a menacing manner ( which would have been easy... he was HUGE) and tell the man, "one day, you'll turn the wrong corner...". Smile real big and walk away. The guy will never be able to walk down the sidewalk without looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life.

The Capt. looked long and hard at me. I thought I had drunk my last beer..., ever. Suddenly he looked me square in the eye and said, "if you ever need anything, look me up". We were good drinking buddies after that and I felt good about that.

Just a thought :-)

Jon K

My Glock shoots the Federal stuff just fine :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 16:55:48 (ZULU)

Mar-di Gras !!

Where is Boris Paskudnak ?

http://www.armychic256bde.com/id42.html#top

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, Us of A - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 18:21:21 (ZULU)

CDC Thanks for the compliment. DOB 12/28/1945

I dug a little further and found load data. Thanks guys. That cartridge really doesn't interest me.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 20:19:35 (ZULU)

Jon K; I'm not real familar with the Ruger 85, so take this from there... Are you sure your slide needs to be tightened up? This is a 'test' I do on 1911's and others. Grasp the gun in your strong hand and pull the slide all the way back and release it. Just let the gun go into battery all by itself, don't ride it home. With the tip of your thumb on your weak hand press firmly down on the breech end of the barrel (called the hood on a 1911). You should feel very little or no movement. A loose slide means you have a loose slide and that's about all. Movement in the barrel when the gun is in battery means the gun is not locking up nice and tight, this will affect accuracy. Take it from there... Walther P22, I have one of them and a Beretta 87, neither one works very well with standard vel. ammo. Both prefer the hot $tuff. CCI Stingers work well but not real accurate and pricey. I've had very good results with Win. Super X, comes in a silver box. Other 22 auto's? Depends what you want to use it for. Around my area the Ruger is a big seller, they make a lot of varations of it too. I like the little plinkers tho,and being a southpaw I also like an ambi safety. This narrows the choices real quick. There's the Walther you have. The Beretta 87 -Real pretty,and a smooth operator with a nice DA trigger but VERY pricey and hard to find. You can buy a real handgun for what they want for one of them, and the Beretta Neos - looks like a big squirt gun but feels pretty good. Heavy trigger unless you go for one of the higher grades, then it gets pricey, gets big and heavy too. That's bout all I know of. Look and ask around, but I think you made a pretty good choice with the P22 already.Good luck.

To the Boss; Is there something wrong here or is it my pc? It seems every time I try to post I get told I must register first. I am registered. and do have a pass word and am allowing cookies. Works second or third time around but I have to rewrite everything. I know I don't have any earth shattering news to report, but ahh... What am I doing wrong?

Joe Sinclair
Blitzburgh, PA, Steeler Nation - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 21:11:17 (ZULU)

http://www.riflebarrels.com/

Check out Lijas Videos of barrel interiors.

Top center of the page.

So much for Hammer Forging by Remmy.

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 23:46:16 (ZULU)

Thanks to all of the 22LR comments,I think that I will just stay away from the federal stuff.

Joe,

Its not that the barrel is lose its that the slide has a lot of sideway play,worse with the hammer back and no mag in it.My dad has a colt 1991 A1 stainless,maybe Im just comparing apples to oranges.

P.S. I don't know if anyone remebers me talking about cleaning my remmy 308 and that it sucks.I was missing a step,I just take hoppes #9 with a brush and then about 5-10 patches of sweets 7.62 and the bore just sparkels.Does a 45cal jag work to clean out the chamber on the 308?

Jon Kujawa
Princeton, MN, USA - Monday, March 13, 2006, at 01:57:20 (ZULU)

Rick: I think the M24 will find it's way to you. You'll recognize it by the badger knob...SOTSE has it.

Jon: Stay away from surplus chamber brushes with steel bristles. I use whichever large pistol brush fits a particular chamber (I have too many to remember which is which), bronze type, and I wrap up with a large patch around for this purpose. If cleaning a rifle sux, you need to leave the caps off the solvents:)) There is also the Tom Sawyer trick to cleaning: Invite an old army buddy over for "a beer" and lay a bunch of dirty weapon in front of him on the table with two cleaning kits. Old army buddies are genetically hard-wired to break them down and scrub them clean for you...if no army buds are available, any gun-slut will also work here. If repeating with same buddy---hide one cleaning kit until he asks for it. Heheh--I know this works from having been that "army buddy" too many times to count.

boris
Monday, March 13, 2006, at 08:49:21 (ZULU)

.308 chambers: like Boris, I use patches wrapped around a nylon .45 caliber pistol brush to clean the chamber. Make sure that no solvent residue is left in the chamber by using several dry patches. I've also been known to run a patch with 99 percent alcohol in there, too, just to make sure. One really wants that chamber clean and dry.

In the field, I carry a boresnake in a ziplock bag in case there is any doubt about that.

Lindy
Fifteen miles from where Cheney shot the lawyer, U.S.A. - Monday, March 13, 2006, at 13:02:48 (ZULU)

JonK; As I stated, I'm not that familar with the Ruger 85, so I don't know, but.. Let me ask you this. Does the pistol work? goes bang every time you pull the trigger. Can you and the pistol hit a 9" paper plate at about 50', EVERY time?. If the answer to both questions is yes...Don't waste your money on stuff you don't need. Spend your time and money on ammo and practice, that's all you need. Cleaning; Yeah a 45 brush will work. So will a lot of things. You may want to try a long bristle brush - Looks like a bore brush with a loop on the end for your finger. Find them at a hardware or auto parts store. DON'T use anything with steel bristles, nylon or bronze. Add lots of elbow grease (not found in stores). Lindy gave you great advice, but Boris is way better -LMAO, yeah I got that T shirt too, seems to be a lot of them around. LOL

Joe Sinclair
Blitzburgh, PA, Steeler Nation - Monday, March 13, 2006, at 14:31:46 (ZULU)

Jon K; Oops, I strewed that last post up. I said don't use steel bristle, nylon or bronze. Should have said; Don't use steel bristles USE nylon or bronze. Sorry about that.

Joe Sinclair
Blitzburgh, PA, Steeler Nation - Monday, March 13, 2006, at 14:57:21 (ZULU)

Al Qaeda claims to have two operations in place that will bring us to our knees. Maybe so. Probably not. Click my name.

CDC'
Monday, March 13, 2006, at 16:18:38 (ZULU)

Any of you guys seen this new remington 798 ?

worst finnished heap of junk ive seen in ages.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, March 13, 2006, at 16:26:18 (ZULU)

Ive been using a plastic shot gun loop that I put a bigger patch in,seems to work fine.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, March 13, 2006, at 16:46:14 (ZULU)

What is good way to beat or decrease the mirage from your barrel.Sincair make a nice sheild that goes onto your barrel that I might buy,its only like $4.00.Also I love the new mark IV I got,its a bit differnt than the 10x I was using,but in I like the power.

Also I sent my bolt out to get the badger tactical know put on and also Im uprgading the firing pin to the hollend.I don't really need that but I want to get rid of the Factory remmy ISS.I can't wait to get it back.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, March 13, 2006, at 17:41:41 (ZULU)

Howdy Guys! Just checking in more than anything…..

But I’ve got some curiosity about some things, like that ought to surprise anyone. That link I posted a while back about the rust preventatives, does anyone know of something similar for lubricating properties? Just wondering if there’s any correlation or not. Everything I find is from a manufacturer’s website, so it’s obviously suspect from the get-go. A tally of products and their applicable ASTM results would be GREAT.

Patron Boris, haven’t heard from you in a while, hope you got the incoming a while back. I figured you were just busy doing important stuff ;-) And what do you mean the froggies have no sense of humor? Ever check out what they call cheese? Now THAT is humor! Oh, I’m sorry, I think we’re out of that. The cat must have drank it.

On the G37 Cooper LTD, at least now I know where the story I got came from. Ahem!

And CDC, I believe things may be changing at Gunsite in that regard. 10 years ago I wouldn’t have DARED take a Glock there. Now though, different story. That one instructor friend we have in common seems to hold both the Glock and the Kalashnikov in high esteem. Before you disown him though, he still loves the 870 ;-) Still trying to scrape up the cash for that chunk of steel….. On the creepy, yeah, that’s a difficult one. The only thing I’ve ever had close to that resulted in a conversation, which I ended with “but if you even look at my kid cross-eyed, well, you can’t fathom the depth of your problems”. Of course, nobody was there, and that convo never took place. Still probably stuck my neck out too far, but the point was made, no more problems, and nothing more came of it. Seemed the best thing at the time, since I was trying to provoke someone half again my size into taking a swing at me…… justification.

Sir Wes, not only does R. Lee Ermey hold a Glock every now and again, he’s their official spokesman! Got to meet the Gunny at SHOT, he was signing autographs and such. On stainless guns though, I found out the hard way that it’s stainLESS, not stainPROOF. How did I figure that out? Rusted a stainless Colt Officers ACP one summer in San Antone! Not that I didn’t take care of it, I just didn’t pull the grips off and lube UNDER them as often as I should have. The sweat (IWB) seeped under there I guess, one of the reasons I like the Milt Sparks SSII more than I did the original. On primers, yeah, I could tell you how to make ‘em. HOWEVER, since you’re a friend, I wouldn’t. With what I do for a living, there’s not that many things around that truly “frighten” me to work with. That’s one of ‘em. When it comes to primers, I say buy ‘em cheap and stack ‘em deep (that doubly applies to Alliant / Federal products, ‘cause if it weren’t for the temporary government shore-ups, they’d have gone the way of the dodo!). ‘Cause I ain’t makin’ em, no-how, no-where, no-time! Seriously, when working with materials like that here, no more is ever produced than a couple hundred milligrams at a time. Why? ‘Cause if it explodes in your hand, odds are you won’t lose your hand, and probably not your fingers. Damage? Whoah yeah! Glass shrapnel anyone? The last time I violated the milligram rule was the LAST time I will violate that rule. They still haven’t found the steel parts…… literally. Industrially, it’s all done by remote control, all the way through stabilization. No humans in the area, and the walls of the buildings are designed to literally drop off with very little pressure. You can guess why.

On longer-term storage: I used to be a believer in the Bianchi blue bags, until they quit making ‘em. Then I found out what those straw things were in the bores of the old rifles, it’s called VCI (vapor something-or-other corrosion inhibiter). Those, or the chip version, in those bags Rod was talking about would be as close to 100% as I know.

Jim, if you wouldn’t mind keeping me “in the loop” per your updates on what you learn in the NVD issue, I’d surely appreciate it!

On surplus ammo, not to knock SnipeUNBlue (I met that guy long ago), but that’s not what I got. Simply put, scent-urea is the #1 importer in the country. They ran out before it was forecast. The order from Wolf for this coming year was literally doubled.

ARMS rings! I’m with Master Rick on that one. I’m not sure if I got some good ones (what’s my luck like?), it was something I did (like about 40 hours worth of lapping, those things are HARD!!!), the intermediate ones were better, or what, but mine are still functioning.

Out of the package, they’ve got a “return to zero guarantee”. My statement on that is “depends on what your definition of return to zero is”. Within MOA? Sure. Within half MOA? From my results, yes, but my testing wasn’t abusive on that aspect. Hard to do an abusive test to rings without being abusive to the optics, and then which one is at fault? Perfect retention of zero? Not quite. If I were in a position where I had to drop optics and then go back to them without option of rezero, I’d feel like I shouldn’t gamble on anything better than MOA on the stick’s end, just to make sure. Now, having said that, I understand that my rings WILL fail, it’s just a matter of time. I’ve already said that when they do, I’ll have some coming from LaRue, to replace ‘em. It just hasn’t happened yet, and by the looks of things, won’t before I declare this barrel “dead”. The only reason I haven’t replaced ‘em yet is because my gear budget hasn’t allowed at this time. In your position though, like you said, functionality is primary, cost is secondary. Me? If I flub a shot due to rings going TU, all that suffers is my ego, and since everyone here knows I really don’t have one anyway……

On the early ones, yup, Master Rick called ‘em junk and I agree completely. dick swan has had problems a-plenty, at one point his foundry flooded and everyone knows how wet metal casting molds work LOL! He’s had problems with bad contractor parts, and pseudo-malicious / thieving contractors themselves. Still, instead of saying “you’re right, this is a problem”, he essentially tells folks like me (GRIN) “you don’t know what you’re talking about, I’m an engineer, you don’t know anything about engineering”. Maybe the truth, but I know that his stuff shoots loose, and when installed per my method it doesn’t. That should say something! The stuff I tried later was better, but I believe it was still highly variable (some good, some not so good), ‘cause I know Sir Wes popped one early (not-to-spec parts!) not too long after I did mine, and I know the torque wrench he was using wasn’t actually applying quite as many inch pounds as the set point indicated. Some appears to be good, and some flatly isn’t. Now we’re getting into cheaply built stuff again? Well surprise me!

The only reason I worked so hard on the ARMS mount was because at the time, it was either that or the nosebleed Brookfield. Now, however, there’s enough out there that this discussion is moot. While I will tell folks “the ARMS 18 can be forced to work well in my experience”, that doesn’t translate into “it’s the smartest thing to do at this point, so buy one and work it over!” Same with the rings….. options were Lupita QD rings or the ARMS back then, so I made the best with what was available. Today, however, I don’t advocate them.

There’s only ONE, count them ONE, guy I know that has a first gen Sproingfeld mount that works, and has worked right for years. While I can’t say that NONE of them work right, I do imply that if one works for you, you ought to be purchasing lottery tickets. IMO, same thing applies to ARMS. I just happen to have gotten the lottery ticket so far, but recognize it as such, and use the term “so far”.

Besides, dick is a somewhat rude individual, that has caused some problems to some great folks I know. One in particular. That in itself is reason enough for me to not purchase his stuff.

Now someone publish this, so I don’t feel like it’s a book for nothing ;-) So much for just stopping in!

Bravo
Monday, March 13, 2006, at 17:55:42 (ZULU)

On chamber cleaning, I've been using mineral spirits for the final step in cleaning both the chamber and the barrel prior to running a few dry patches and putting the rifle up. I've been doing this for a while now and it seems to leave the metal clean and dry.

Question: is there any reason not to use mineral spirits as a cleaner for my rifle? I'm wondering if any of you know of a down side that I am unaware of.

Thanks

Steve in Tampa
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Monday, March 13, 2006, at 19:59:32 (ZULU)

Boris- Just in time for my Cali legal Stag AR I'm putting together!!!!! Thanks a bunch. Good hunting!!

Dennis-When you coming out to play??? Gotta do it for ole time's sake:-))))

Bad Karma-We have a tactical match the first Sun of every month out at Ione, rain or shine. If you need particulars shoot me an e-mail for a file with course description etc.

Joe Ducos
Turlock, CA, USA - Monday, March 13, 2006, at 23:37:24 (ZULU)

CDC,

Just looked at the link you posted for the Al Queada threat. Well, I say bring it on. They may get the Defeatocrats to piss thier pants, but, we as Americans will never yield! I think if they do pull off such an attack I think the resulting mushroom clouds will be our response. I also feel thatr the Second Amendment is our first line of defense. The terrorists are not stupid. They know the resulting retaliation by angry mobs for revenge will be withering. I hope we are not looking a nuclear event. America is the promised land, Gods country. We will prevail.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Monday, March 13, 2006, at 23:38:49 (ZULU)

Joisey Steve,

Wow! What a difference in barrels. I have noticed that Remingtons Q.C. has lessened of late. I think they are cutting a lot of corners.

Anyone,

I have a few Weatherby with Howa 1500 action and I'm concidering rebarreling one to something more to my taste. I think these are fine actions and display good workmanship. I'm not thinking of another precision rifle, more on the lines of a good hunting jobber. Perhaps .338-06 or a nice 8x57mm. One of those projects that may never get started but fun to think about..

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Monday, March 13, 2006, at 23:58:06 (ZULU)

Bravo: "I believe things may be changing at Gunsite in that regard. 10 years ago I wouldn’t have DARED take a Glock there. Now though, different story."

Did Cooper endorse Glock over the Gubment Model? The last I heard, he said, "If you want to win, this (the GM .45acp) is the gun you will carry. To say anything else is to flaunt your ignorance."

He's not one to mince words.

Since I hate looking for brass, I usually use a 625. If I had some reason to train up in Glocks, I'd take one to Gunsite and take no guff about it. Unless asked, I never heard any of them say a bad word about anything anybody carried. When asked, they just made dispassionate technical recommendations. By the advanced class the only things left were Sigs and GMs. The GMs took all the top spots every time. That was a while back.

If you like Glocks, shoot Glocks. If you don't, then shoot something else.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 00:55:49 (ZULU)

Pete/Remington;

The Rem 798 is nothing more than the Charles Daly Mausers made by Zastava. In fact, all of the Zastava made rifles that Daly was importing here are now marketed by Remington. These include the rimfire (Rem Model 5), the Mauser (Rem 798) and the Mini-Mauser (Rem 799). Naturally, Remington uped the prices of the same stuff Daly was bringing in and there will be plenty of fools who will buy them just because it has the Remington mark on it. Kinda like Weatherby selling that Howa made rifle.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 01:25:56 (ZULU)

CDC,

The 625 is the finest revolver I have ever owned for defense, target, or a campsite life insurance policy. The only other revolver would be my 610 10mm. Mine is a custom shop jobber. 6 1/2" bbl and the action tuned to a tee.

My favorite load is a RCBS 255 Kieth SWC with 6.0gr Unique. It packs a punch! What I like about my 625 is that I tuned it to my taste, and feel that I can keep up with the auto loaders with the full moon clips. Accuracy is under 2" at 25 yards. The 255s are goimg about 900f/s and they really send bowling pins for a flip. I never shoot jacketed bullets in any of my handguns except for my Glocks.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 01:32:58 (ZULU)

Pete:

I hear what you are saying about Brno, but they are better than the Rem 710. There is nothing wrong with Howa actions at the right price, nor with Brno Mauser actions at the right price. And I don't hear anyone bragging about Rem ADL actions any more - aren't they discontinued?

I expect that the Brno QC will improve. Or Remington will drop the line. I did see an older one, and it was not that well finished. But Czech work can be pretty good for the money. This gives Remington an overseas maker. Their negotiating position with the union may improve.... There are probably several things going on here.

I think the CZ export Mausers of the 1930s are as good, if not better, than the FN Mausers of the same period. But we are only talking hunting rifle.

P. Hayden
USA - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 02:18:57 (ZULU)

P. Hayden...

The Rem 798 Mousers are NOT Brno (CZ), they are another counrty's entry.

For Brno, see the CZ line of riffles that everyone says is great - I have one and it is GREAT!

Also... the ADL action hasn't been discontinued - the ADL and BDL and the current line are all the same M-700 action - it is the same action for all of them - the ADL designation was for a stock style that has been discontinued.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 03:22:57 (ZULU)

All,

Since it's an election year again I read 1984 as to keep up with the tactics of the Democratic Party. I found a great web site by googleing "Newspeak". It's a hoot. I think we can really relate to a lot of the tranlations from "1984" to 2006. Just for fun!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 03:32:15 (ZULU)

Bad Karma: Keiths are fine for tac-loads with Auto-Rims, but I can't get a speed load worth the name with them. Truncated cones are better, but not good enough. Gold Dots or 230 Hydro-Shocks work. 230 gr punkins work better. I carry the gun in a Milt Sparks "Hackathorn" holster.

My reloading drill works like this: The gun is loaded with Auto Rims and, left of my belt buckle, I have belt loops loaded with auto rims. If I am going to shoot alot, I carry some extra auto-rims in my left front pocket. The loops give me my tac-loads. Shoot one, load one, drop the empty in my shirt pocket. Shoot two, load two, emptys in shirt pocket. If I have the extra auto-rims, I fill the empty loops from my pocket. On the right of the buckle are full moons. That gives me my speed-loads. Shoot whatever, load six. I present and shoot the first six about as fast as with a GM, but my speed-load is slower. It's still pretty quick.

A good smith slicked it up and slick is the right word. Strong men weep. It is a very nice trail and camp gun, but - in a SHTF situation - I'd carry John M's masterpiece...and a rifle. Especially the rifle.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 03:40:05 (ZULU)

A quick pass thorugh again and a BS flag to be thrown.

I make no money from Remington, but my troops use Remington made sniper weapons. I do not need to have them suddenly doubting their equipment and I have now had questions on that very subject. This somewhat pisses me off. I have had to show them that their barrels also shine, like those "other" barrels, and are not black. That the tooling marks are tiny and run the length and not across the barrel. Taht the lands and grooves are not chipped and pitted nor are they "squashed".

I have looked at a bunch of M24 Remington barrels with borescopes and have NEVER seen one like that! I call BS on the barrel maker and our guys use their, Elijha, barrels. Listen carefully and he explains that he is comparing apples and oranges. He is showing a pull off from a barreled action. Remington knows that you are going to change out the barrel and they stick the lowest grade barrel on those actions. Had they have compared the custom shop barrels with the their barrels the diffeence would not have made as good as copy. I say this smacks of following the news talking heads technique of throwing in spin to make a story that really does not existy at that level.

Are their barrels better than Remington, hell I should hope so, are they spining that video, hell yes! I find it rather deceitful and I just may make my displeasure known to them and buy else where from now on.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 03:50:56 (ZULU)

Litto:

You are right - the Zastava actions are Yugoslav. My mistake. I wish they were Czech. (I hate having to admit I am wrong, but I am, and you are right.)

http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/english/civilni.htm

makes the current Remington actions.

I think Interarms imported the Brno rifles 15 years ago or so. The Brnos are Czech, and are fine. The current CZ550 rifles are made by CZ-Uhersky Brod. For some reason the CZ name went to the UB company, which also makes the CZ75b, and not Brno. I am pretty sure they are now two companies.

All my Brnos (old CZs) are on pre-WWII military actions. But they are all good. Not precision rifles, but I really like Mauser actions. They are more forgiving than the Remingtons, even. I learned to work on them first, and if I only had one rifle, etc. I also have a CZ550 in .308, but I like the older guns.

But there is no reason the Yugoslavs can't make a good rifle. Someday.

P. Hayden
USA - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 04:47:28 (ZULU)

"Did Cooper endorse Glock over the Gubment Model?"

Only if I were inadvertently transferred onto bizarro world without my knowing.

I know what you're saying about the 625. That's why I went to the 1911 after the revolver, his statement on the revolver (specifically S&W) actually being less reliable than the 1911 in harsh environments. Kind of sad, as I never really carried a revolver since, the only exception being a Detective Special on seldom occasions. Still like 'em, but they're recreational only for me now.

Oddly enough, that's why I went to the dark side. If I could find a 1911 that was in my estimation "reliable enough", I'd go that way and never look back. Unfortunately, at this point, it's a somewhat self-perpetuating downward spiral. The more I get burned on these, the less I want to invest in another one just to try it out. That $2500 Kimber or Sproingfeld might just be the ticket, but I've got problems with buy-before-you-try, and nobody wants to let me try before I buy.

So if someone has a 1911 they can honestly say "Without a re-lube, this thing will keep going without a malf for at least 1000 rounds in all kinds of nasty conditions without cleaning, and I don't mind selling it" then we need to talk. I'm very serious about that. I've never owned a 1911 that was less accurate than the most accurate Glock I've owned, or that wasn't more comfortable in the hand. But I've never owned a 1911 that was Glock reliable either.

Before anyone gets the idea I'm married to the Austrian import, I will say that I've got a 5" XD45ACP on order, although the estimate is 3 to 5 months on delivery. For evaluation purposes, eh? I've got no allegiance to Glock, and less to Sproingfeld, I just go whichever way my results push me.

Bravo
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 04:55:05 (ZULU)

Gents,

Bad Kharma, Liked your analogy of 1984 to 2006. Sad, but true.

Rem 798's: Just marketing. Keep the 700 series and market a '98 Mauser action. Remington hasn't had a new idea in 40-50 years. Time to move ahead. QC HAS fallen off and my guess is sales are WAY down. EVERYONE is building anything hoping for the a share of the market today. How many companies are building or marketing M98's, 1911's, AR-15's etc.? Some are doing a good job others...well, not so good.It's like going to a KCF that serves chicken and tacos, and ...

Surprised that they're not serving carp and kilbasa (Polish surf and turf).

CZ Rifles and Pistols. Damn good quality and dollar value. My .338 Lapua is on a large CZ550(BRNO 602) action and it's a peach. Have a CZ 75B and a CZ-97. Both are superior to U.S. workmanship. Especially, if you consider dollar value. The Czech folks know how to make guns. When I get around to building that .404 Jefferies I'm going to use a CZ action as the start. Yes, I LIKE CZ's

Kitty Whacker: My 18 lb Grey Tabby is reading this as I write. He may be looking for you...he needs a light work out;-)

Bad Kharma: S&W 625's and 610's. Great revolvers. Why put auto pistol cartridges in revolvers? My S&W M 57 4" covers both calibers, is more powerful than either, and/or can be downloaded. Love that .41 Magnum. Favorite working load is a 230 grain Keith SWC over 7.5 grains of WW-231.Winchester Brass and Primer. Gives an honest 950 FPS from my 4" tube.

Pistol Country: Shoot what you like. My preference is John Browning's 1911 or Hi-Power. Glock is fine if you like it. Our next military pistol may be a single stack Glock in .45 ACP. Bet it's coming...Bravo? Wana bet there's a reason R. Lee Ermey is the Glock Spokesman and a Marine?

Pistol Reliability: They ALL fail sooner or later. As a trainer I have seen all brands fail. Some when NIB. Proper BHP's, 1911's, Glocks, Sigs, etc. are damn reliable. Not to start a pissing contest, but the only pistol I will not buy or recommend is the Beretta 92/96 series. Don't ask. Let's just say I've seen to many negatives from that platform series.

ARMS rings and mounts. Tried them on my M25. They SUCKED. My experience mirrors Bravo's. Except I couldn't get mine to work. Even with the "Bravo" fix. Gave up on the M1A/M14 platform as a scoped entity. I don't keep things I can't rely on.

Indiansinger: The only failure I've had with a Glock was with Federal Classic HP's in a new G23. Round #7 fired and #8 failed to chamber. #7's case had separated just forward of web. Sent to forward portion to Federal after a phone call to them. They jumped right on the problem and were kind enough to stay in touch and send me six 50 round boxes of Hydra-Shock for my trouble. Nice to get the ammo, but if I hadn't been training the six boxes of ammo would have been a moot point. Wouldn't have been around to enjoy them, anyway.

CDC: The .308 Norma and .358 Norma have never gotten the respect they deserve. The former is as good as any .300 mag out there. The latter rivals the .375 H&H for power, but is all but unknown. Hmm, maybe I can remember them 'cuz I had my 55th B-day last week. Yeah, I remember the transition from flint to percussion, too!

Bad Kharma: Nuclear Terrorism...it's gonna happen. Be interesting to see what the reaction will be. A call to action or a typical F...it. Didn't really effect me!

.22 Ammo. Have had the best luck with CCI over the years. Shoot mostly STD velocity now through my suppressed pistols. Overall, CCI Green Tag has been my favorite. Until they started pricing it like Eley 10X!

All for now. Like Bravo, I need a nap.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 05:04:06 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

I agree with the S&W 57, I got one with a 8 3/8 tube, not very good for ccw. I got a M25 w/ 8 3/8 tube in .45 Colt. I like the ACP due to the fact it'd readily available and brass is plentiful. I am a big Unique fan. I have a Ideal mould that makes 250gr RN. The mould is from the 50s. I also have the RCBS 215 Kieth SWC. Both shoot fine with 8.0gr Unique. I am interested in getting the tube replaced with a 4" full lug number.

CDC,

I feel your pain in fast reloads with the SWCs. What a bitch! Jiggle, jiggle AHHH! they got me. I compete with the Lee 230 TC. I wrap the bullets with teflon tape, about 3 turns. If I am going into questionable areas of camping I load it up with Black Talons I bought yyyeeeaaarrsss ago. I do like the 1911, however the weight is problematic for the ammo capacity. If I am "going out of town" I take my Glock 29 10mm with Gold Dots, 180gr flavor. I do shoot Auto Rims but the convienience of the moon clips really make them the ideal package in my own personal situation.

Like any weapon, it's all about the individual shooter. I don't think that one is superior to the other unless quality comes into play. For example, I'm not a very large man yet my hands are ample enough that my Grizzly Win Mag fits with comfort. My friend on the other hand, is about 8" taller and 80 pounds heavier than I. His hands are too small for a Beretta 92F, yet a 1911 is just the ticket.

My ideal weapon would be a particle beam weapon that evaporates the enemy and leaves steam behind so there is no mess to mop up. LOL! Oh yeah, it has to run on a 9v battery. Hey Lawrence Livermore, can you guys get one to Iraq! LOL!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 05:27:34 (ZULU)

Bravo I will smack and help you. You know squat about 1911s so if you wnat a good one follow my advice and do this.

Buy a Stock Kimber Series One Clasic, Spingfield Loaded or Colt Government Series 70 or 80 does not matter.

Call John Jardine at 510-489-8477 Tell him you are an idiot friend of mine who thinks Glocks are better than 1911s. Tell him I said you needed to send in a 1911 for him to do a "Reliabilty, accuracy, dehorn and trigger job"

Then send weapon to him. If when it comes back it does not work far better than your Glooooooooooooooooop I will buy it from you. If it works far better than the GLOOOOOP you owe me dinner.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 06:48:36 (ZULU)

Bravo said,

"So if someone has a 1911 they can honestly say "Without a re-lube, this thing will keep going without a malf for at least 1000 rounds in all kinds of nasty conditions without cleaning, and I don't mind selling it" then we need to talk. I'm very serious about that. I've never owned a 1911 that was less accurate than the most accurate Glock I've owned, or that wasn't more comfortable in the hand. But I've never owned a 1911 that was Glock reliable either."

While it's not for sale, I shot a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special at the Team Tactics course one year. It was clean when the course began and I continued shooting it with no malf's until the course was completed. I took 1200 rounds (Win. white box) with me and sold 2 boxes to a guy in the parking lot after the course.

It now has at least 5K rounds thru it and the only malf's in it's brief history I recall were ammo related. I carry it daily.

I just purchased a M17 Glock recently and must admit, it's OK. My son and I went to an indoor range this w/e in Augusta (his first time shooting indoors). I finally learned to shoot it and he prefers it over the 1911.

BTW, we spent about 30 min. range time, 2 boxes 9mm, 1 box .45, 2 siloh. targets, rental eye/ear protect. The total? $60.11. Is that inline with some of what you guys pay?

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 12:52:09 (ZULU)

Wes: "Why put auto pistol cartridges in revolvers? "

For the slickest speed load you'll ever get from a revolver and to make policing up your brass a snap. .41 Mags are nice too.

Bravo: Mike Plaxco says, if your 1911 won't run dirty, something's wrong. I can easily get 1,000 between cleanings from any of mine. At the beginning of shooting each day I spot lube. It probably isn't necessary, but it makes me feel good.

Bad Karma: You may want to check out the tac-load proceedure I outlined earlier. Auto rims can be loaded much hotter than acps and using them adds flexibility.

Somebody asked about possible down-sides to cleaning with paint thinner. It strips all the oil on the metal. If you immerse, you have to re-lube everything. Not doing that once cost me a trigger-job.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 13:38:06 (ZULU)

Rick,

Well said!! I have had more Remingtons than 10 people would own in a life time and they all shot well. Yes some had rough barrels but that didn't affect the way they shot, only the way they cleaned up.

I had an "Aftermarket" barrel on a 260 that cost me close to $300 that was as smooth as glass and shined like a new babies ass but only shot in the high .6s. A stock remington 700LVS 260 shot in the low .5s all day long and had chatter marks in the barrel that you could see!! It sucked to clean it but it still shot damn good for me.

People get to reading to many Guns and Blammo magazines and think that their guns won't shoot without all the bells and whistles installed and barrels that are glass smooth. I see some guns at matches that take a golf caddy to carry because of all the crap hanging off of them.

Its still the man behind the gun that makes a difference. I won just as much with a stock 308VS as I did with my high dollar 6.5x284 I just look better doing it now(HA)!!!!!

Pat
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 15:10:31 (ZULU)

Somebody I don't know sent me an executable file as an attachment by way of my riflemen.net address. Yahoo didn't stop it, but I deleted the thing without opening it.

Watch out.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 16:41:47 (ZULU)

Bravo...

>" Howdy Guys! Just checking in more than anything….."<

Damn... I'm glad you just checked in, instead of planning to write something - I don't think I could take the latter - you need a napie ;)))

>"it’s called VCI (vapor something-or-other corrosion inhibiter)"<

It's "VPI" - Vapor Phase Inhibitor - good stuffie.

On Gen 1 mounts... I keep buying lottery tickets, wassa matter, I no win :((

"So if someone has a 1911 they can honestly say "Without a re-lube, this thing will keep going without a malf for at least 1000 rounds in all kinds of nasty conditions without cleaning,"

You're supposed to oil them??? Where? There ain't no steeeenkin oil filler cap on my 1911's

Joisey...

Kewl site - My new XR-100 in .204 Ruga that I bought two weeks ago, and loved the finishing - OUTSIDE!! - Shot it last Friday and... Ta-ta, the chamber has a large gouge in the wall from a badd reamer - the guy that proof fired it was blind... they DO proof fire them, don't they???... maybe one in twenty so they save time :((

It went back for a new gun replacement. Boo-hiss on Remington. You know the funny part? Back in the "Old days", no one ever heard of this stuff cuz the only outlet for this information was the gun rags, and they would NEVER report crap like this... now that there is an internet with all the chat rooms, one shitty problem is read by more shooters than people that read the gun rags - you'd think that the gun companies would clean up their loose ends... Yes??, I guess not.

New gun is 3 or 4 weeks away. :(((

Rickster...

The barrels in the M-24 are NOT the regular fair of the OTC Remingtons. You guys get GOOD ONES!! We get the poo-poo :((

P. Hayden...

>"For some reason the CZ name went to the UB company, which also makes the CZ75b, and not Brno. "<

The way I heard it was that the BRNO company was spread out in a number of factories (like many companies), and when the country split, some were some on one side of the line, and some were on the other... hense, two companies making the same guns, neither having any connection to the new comer "Zastava"...

Sir Westley...

>"Kitty Whacker: My 18 lb Grey Tabby is reading this as I write. He may be looking for you...he needs a light work out;-)"<

Your Kitty has a "Get out of KittyWhacker gunsights free" card... he has free passage anywhere (as long as he has a "I belong to Sir Westly" collar on him ;)))

Things are looking better and better - I'll be filing in 3 or 4 weeks, and I gots them son's a bitches by the short hairs - they are gonna wet their collective painties - It's getting betterer and betterer :)))

Pat (HA!)

Hey dude... HA! yo'self ;)

'lito

Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store...

... not a government agency

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 18:09:19 (ZULU)

CDC, I agree completely on the dirty pistol statement. The kicker is that "dirty" means different things to different people. To one guy, it might mean "with the carbon fouling of 2000 rounds in it". Maybe with a bit of holster lint or primer sealant added. To me, it means "after having been souped up in mud and sand so much that there's an upside down compacted rainbow of dried muck where the slide has compacted it solid". At least that's the range I'm trying to get into. I want cleaning the muck out to be like you said about spot lubing. I want it to not really be necessary, but something that makes me feel good.

As an aside, I've caught several folks lately, many of 'em smart puppies, talking negatively about the Wilson Combat mags. According to roughly one third, the Chip McCormic power mags are better. The other roughly two thirds claim that I ought to trade in my Wilsons for some from PRI. Due to this, I took the time to speak to Jay Hard at the SHOT show (I like Jay, he's aces to deal with, and since he's been good to me and is the American counterpart for PRI......) and found out that they're now the OEM for many of the manufacturers. I can't recall all the names, but I do remember that they included Novaks and Kimber. Seems that in "the old days" he helped out with setting up MecGar. Any thoughts on this, or should I just keep the Wilsons and be happy?

John, I've never done the indoor range rental, but that sounds a touch steep. Just out of curiousity, have you ever tried messing with the TR Spl in sand?

Patron Mike, I think you very likely have yourself a deal. If you're willing to say that my Novaks Colt isn't up to the task but one of John's will be, I'll take what you say as honest.

It'll have to wait a bit though, 'cause I'm kind of strapped for cash at the moment. I'll call today and find out what kind of a bill I'm looking at though, and put it in the budget. I'll relate the statement EXACTLY as you wrote it. Let's see here...... 1000 rounds. How about 250 in sand, 250 in mud, 250 in river water, and 250 in as cold of condition as I can find. I'll give you the "easy" version though, the sand will be dry, no water sprayed on it in the cold portion to freeze up, and ball ammo instead of JHPs. I recall you introducing me to John last year I believe. The guy about my height but that looks like he could rip a LA phone book in two, eh?

Patron Kittywhacker, yeah, there's different terms. From what I understand VCI=VPI. Here's a place that sells the paper stuff, just not the tube that goes in the barrel: http://www.vci2000.com/ I'm sure there's others as well. But yeah, I was just checking in. When I don't do it too often, well, it takes a while ;-)

Sir Wes, I kind of doubt that the Glock will become American issue. Here's why..... Our military wants more manual safeties, pure and simple. Now my estimation is that if they were to contact Glock and request a deviation from the normal production, Gaston would insultingly state that if they want more safeties, they're not asking the right question! Our goobermint should be understanding that HE has designed the FINEST pistol on earth, and HE would no more taint his perfect creation for a huge goobermint contract than he would for some podunk redneck, because both of them are functionally illiterate as far as firearms design and requirements are concerned. Have I told you lately about what I think of the Smyrna Schmucks?

But otherwise, I agree completely. Firearms are machines, nothing more, nothing less. Technically, I suppose they'd be classified as self reciprocating non-captive piston engines. Like all engines, they'll wear out and break. Sure. But I also believe that some are built differently than others, for the same reason I prefer certain engines. Try to wear out a Jeep 4 liter straight 6. Great engine in my experience. Not that I've experienced 'em all, but the ones I have, I've got some pretty good opinions on LOL!

Bravo
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 19:29:26 (ZULU)

Revolver country! Not having to wrap your fist around a cartridge sure opens possibilities, eh? Yeah...fond memories of a dead black bear and a smoking gun going click click click in hand. 629, 300gr handloads that probably ruined the frame...heheh. Loved that damn gun.

1911-Glock. Why bother? If you can hold it and hit with it, keep practicing. Just don't tell me what to shoot. Heheh. And since nobody cares, I like kimbers and para single-actions. When i can afford to, I'll like a cobra-carry too.

The worst barrel in my safe (still there because I ain't been home long enough to fix it) is on the boy's remmy 260. Once I took the crooked stock off the side of the barrel-that hour-glass shaped pipe put the bullets in at a MOA or so. Good enough aplenty for the kid and his first stick...but the little model seven has some potential in my mind...heheh---can't leave well enough alone. Yep; one dirty SOB after a few rounds. Shaves the jackets and guilds itself a bankers horde of metal...

I think, if I did that purchase again--I'd buy savage.

Boris
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 19:56:03 (ZULU)

Bravo,

"Gaston will say ... HE has designed the FINEST pistol on earth, and HE would no more taint his perfect creation for a huge goobermint contract than he would for some podunk redneck, because both of them are functionally illiterate as far as firearms design and requirements are concerned."

It's not the stupid 'safety-in-the-trigger' or the 'plastic' that bother me, it's the dumbass DAO design, cartridge choices, and manufacturing engineering decisions they made. I want options, ergonomics, confidence of a no KB, and a quality 'feel'. None of which I get from the misfit marketing morons/engineers at Glock. Have you ever tried working with German engineers? More of the same.

HK fits, so I shoot them. Along with Para. Looking to pick up a Kimber 1911 this year.

And screw the dirt/mud/slime/water/freeze tests. If you're stupid enough to shoot a weapon that clearly has grime/slime/grit/shit in it, without an attempt at clearing it, you deserve whatever the hell you get.

I'm done with these stupid goddamned pistol threads.

Duman

Duman
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 20:45:20 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Sand? Nah, I just use JB Borepaste for lube on the slide rails. Seriously though, I've never tried your sand bucket trick but one can't finish a class at TR without having the weapon visit the ground, either on your belt when you're flat on your back or when doin the pistol swap drill. We all were on the line, lay your pistol on the ground in front of you with a manually induced malfunction, step to the right to the next shooters position and on the whistle clear the pistol/malfunction in front of you and fire 2 or 3 rounds. Induce malfunction, lay weapon down and step to the right. I bet I fired 10 different pistols that day. Theory was: Weapon you use in the fight may NOT be the one you came with. I've been to dances like those....never mind. There were moans and groans from a few about laying their brand new weapons on the ground....:))

John

Acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 22:12:26 (ZULU)

Bravo, you cant do anything to a 1911 that has not been done already. On Novak versus Jardine. Thye both worked for same Master Smith, A. Swenson. He was John's Uncle. Rumor has it Novak did not work out. Novaks work looks great. Johns work is a big cut above in my opinion. Thats all I will say on this.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 22:59:31 (ZULU)

Patron Mike, I talked with John. I'll be sending the pistol just as soon as I can afford the hit to the plastic. He seems very confident that it'll go through anything I want it to, which is always a bonus. The man has impressed me, and that's not necessarily an easy feat. I trust your judgement.

John, I completely understand. That's the mentality I'm talking about........ it'll never fail if you never use it! I don't have show cars, I've got shovels. They don't get waxed and polished, nor tucked in on pedestals at night. They get used. If I'm going to have faith in it (faith in a mechanical thing being more of a headgame), I'm gonna know what I'm having faith in.

Duman, does this mean the honeymoon is over? Didn't mean to rile you.

I tapped out more, but thought better of posting it. I'll try and check in, in another month or so.

Bravo
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 23:26:32 (ZULU)

Bravo wrote: "To me, (running dirty) means "after having been souped up in mud and sand so much that there's an upside down compacted rainbow of dried muck where the slide has compacted it solid"."

If that is your sole criterion for choosing a personal defense weapon, I recommend a Bowie knife. Jim Crowell will make you an amazingly dependable one for about $1,500.

Cripes.

Cheerfully dismissing "Gaston"'s supercilious bluster, the two most important factors in a hand-gun's "hittability" are the sights and the trigger. The handgun should have a "glass rod" crisp trigger that breaks at from three to four pounds. To put it very mildly, the Glock's doesn't.

But I truly do not care.

Shoot what you want.

CDC'
Tuesday, March 14, 2006, at 23:37:31 (ZULU)

Wes - 55 huh? Dam young pups. :)

Dam folks, if you like a weapon use it, but you don't need to go on a Jihad to make everyone else like it. :)

Pat - Agree, too damn many people read Guns and Blammo and then worry about he current flavor of hte month without really knowing the difference.

'Lito, you old fart! - Yeah I know about OTC barrels but there is a custom department that will set you up with a good barrel just like our M24s. :) My problem is that they did not compare comparable barrels, but both ends of the spectrum. Kind like a lie by omission.

Boris - Savage is a good stick, especially for an out of hte box setup and there are now more and more "custom" items for them. They could over take Remy in the Tactical dpartment if Remy ain't careful.

Well, the guys graduate tomorrow and we pick up new ones Tuesday. Cripes I love these back to backers. :)

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 01:23:49 (ZULU)

Bravo,

No hard feelings. Hell, sorry I spouted off like that. I'm just up to my eyeballs in high-paid research engineers that can't figure out how to characterize a cooling fan. I shit you not. Guys are smart enough to make it rain, but too stupid to stay dry.

I was just venting, hope you weren't offended. And honeymoon?!? Staaaaaay back, big fella, no 'broke-back' action here .... ;8-p

Sorry everyone, just a vent, no offense intended to anyone.

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 01:38:30 (ZULU)

Gentelman,

I love these pistol country threads. Instead of disagreeing with someone's choice of handgun, we should really stick to subjects less likely to cause controversy, such as casting dispersions on the character of anothers mother, or asking if you can spend a weekend with someone's wife/girlfriend.

A friend of mine referred to this as the "A-team phenomenon" Take a

pistol/knife/piece of gear and set it in a team room and six guys will love it and six guys will call it a piece of s***.

Personally, I carry a Springfield Armory 1911 or a Glock. I have broken my 1911, but never to the point it wouldn't fire. ( sent a front site flying and cracked the frame under the mainspring retaining pin) Both have made me uneasy and unhappy but should it have happened in the middle of a fight, I still feel they would have got the job done. Never broken any of my glocks, but seen a number with cracks in the slide ( Glock slides are brittle and prone to cracking if dropped on a hard surface) and other misc. failures, but none that would have stopped them firing in a middle of a fight.

My experience is ancedotal (SP) rather than emphirical (sp?), but that is the main reason I carry what I carry. One of the best shots I ever knew loved S&W automatics. Personally, I would rather have a two sisters in a whorehouse than a brother who carried a S&W auto.

He felt the same about Glocks.

About the only thing more emotional than choice of handguns is...

Remington barrels. Shoot a stock, slightly, tweaked .308 PSS. With careful handloading and not too much operator error, it will shoot a little better than half MOA groups. Realistically, that is all I have ever really felt I needed. Certainly "minute of a man" to quote a friend of mine. Sure, accuracy is like money and the more you can get the better, but for most needs one half MOA is more thean suffient. I realize factory barrels are a crap shoot and have seen some that are crap, but have seen some factory PSS that shoot nice and tight out of the box.

My humble opinion.

Pat 2
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 01:40:41 (ZULU)

CDC,

I do like the Auto Rims, I have about 1500 new unprimed stuff sitting around. I just like dropping the moon clips in. I have had trouble with HKS speed loaders and use them in my 357s. Ya know the 45 AR looks a ot like a beefed up .44 Russian with the right bullet in it. I'm trying to figure out how to make 10mm rimmed. I think the 30-30 case is the place to start. The 10mm is based on the 30 Remington case. I'll have to do some research.

I am also still working on the flash tube concept in biug bores, remember talking about that a few years back? Never got to really play with it yet. Oh! The Hornady 255gr .452" "Cowboy" RFN works great in the 625! I have some 285s I'm thinking of loading in the Auto Rim.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 01:59:12 (ZULU)

CDC,

Hey, does "CDC" mean Center for Democrat Control"? LOL! They are finding a lot of bodies in Iraq. If it does turn into a civil war, I think we can hear the Defeatocrats singing and prancing around like the bunch of commie a-hole they really are. I Google Marine Sniper in the video section and found a 1min 10sec clip of M262 Mod O action in Astan! The Tali-swine flew to bits like squirrels on .220 Swift candy! Awesome..and NICE SHOOTING MARINES! Shoot a few more for the Gipper.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 02:14:51 (ZULU)

re: flash tubes

Right up there with duplex or triplex powder loadings

Might get you increased performance, but I have a sneaking suspicion that velocity variance is driven up by each different tube contributing it's own randomness. A lot of effort for the modest improvement.

More powder or a bigger case would seem to be easier...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 02:22:12 (ZULU)

Gents,

Rick, yup the big 55 hit. Seems like just the other day...damn, forgot what I was gonna say...;-)

CDC, Looking at my Franklin Mint Bowie as I write this. Wife bought it at an NRA auction for $160.00 including the case. Retail on the set up was $600.00 back then. A steal for sure. Seems to have great steel in the blade. One of these days I'm going to have to put an edge on it. On the other hand, perhaps, I'll just go touch up the edge on my Ka-bar and be happy. Latest acquisition is a Emerson Commander. Now there is a folder! Expensive, but worth it, IMHO. Looking at the pile of knives I have maybe I AM a knife person. Need a Randall #1 to round things out a bit. A Cold Steel Kukri would be nice, too. Personally, I think I'd rather stick with my suppressed UZI or Ruger if I have the choice.

Pistol Country: Seems like we all have our choices and trust them. Bad Kharma likes pistol cartridge chambered revolvers. I can go there in the Model 625, but would prefer a S&W 1917 with moon clips. Prefer my M-57 to both, as I mentioned. All will get the job done. Autopistols? I am a disciple of JMB. Have trusted 1911's most of my life and see no reason to change. Same for Hi-powers. The problem is when folks think they know more than John B and "enhance" the design. The stock Goverment Model Colts, Commanders, Les Baers, and Springfield Mil-Specs have been totally reliable with good ammo. Have carried and own Glocks, but tupperware has no soul. Same can be said for Kydex holsters vs. Custom Leather. Shoot what you like and trust. Put the gamesman crap aside and train, train, train.

The trend towards "bear guns, guide guns, and short barreled magnum" howitzers is humorous(OK, pathetic). It's like naming Ford 4-wheel drives. First we had the Explorer, then the Expedition, and now the Excursion. Give me a break they all do the same damn thing! OK, it's marketing, but can't believe people buy these when 99% will never leave the highway. Oops, feel a rant. New topic...

Pistol marketing: Glock...PERFECTION. Personally, I like one a buddy came up with: Some claim PERFECTION. CZ delivers it!

Savages: Brother-in-law had one and it shot great. Sold it, then the Rem M700 VS .308 I damn near gave him. On to a Winch M70 .300 WSM. Now he sold that and wants a Savage 110 FP. Told him to get ONE platform and stay with it, dammit! The Remmie was a box stock rifle and shot 3/4 MOA all day long with good ammo.

Oh, well. Sitting on seven actions of various types. Just going to build my own in the future, me thinks.

Factory Barrels: Have had most of my Rem 700's that had tight/loose spots in them, but with a bit of tweeking shot damn well. As the man said; you might be a rifle looney if: "you buy a new rifle and immediately replace the barrel with a match grade tube. Then wonder how the factory tube would have shot"!

Kitty Whacker: Tiny appreciates the "get out of jail free" card. Will hang my ID on him AND put puss'n boots on him that light LEDS as he stalks. Just for positive ID mind you. Think you'd like him. He HATES other cats.

AR-15/M-16/AR-10/SR-25 Country: How many of you out there are playing with these as tactical rifles and sniper platforms? Have some questions for you. Will take it off line so as not to bore the rest of the list. Am frankly unhappy with the M1A as a scoped platform and am thinking of moving into the 21st Century. Your thoughts and recommendations are solicited, as always.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 02:39:05 (ZULU)

A question for all:

I was using my M1A as a Precision Rifle for my Department. Since it was actually losing its barrel (turning in the receiver!!!) and its accuracy (was shot out, of all things--I got it used, some time ago), I sent it back to Springfield Armory, where they were kind enough to install a Douglas Heavy Premium Air-Gauge, with a 1-10" twist. It's in my safe now; since it is a pristine pre-ban, it will stay there, too.

So, after much soul searching and researching, I settled on a Savage 10FP-LE2A, with the Choate stock and Accutrigger. (Of course, the fact that it didn't cost anywhere near an FN SPR had a lot to do with it, too!! :-))

So, here's what happened: From a cold barrel (after break in) this rifle is stacking bullets almost on top of each other! The ammunition used is Federal GM Match, with the 168 grain MatchKing.

Now, my question: Who makes Savage barrels? I ask because this rifle is a joy to shoot! As for break in, I went through 3 cycles of firing one shot and cleaning. Absolutely NO copper fouling--at all!

So--what is the "secret" of the Savage barrel?

Eagle C. Tovar Jr.
Enumclaw, WA, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 03:02:47 (ZULU)

HDR:

Damn sad news.

I was in Warner Robbins all last week for a carbine school.

Read God is my Co-pilot as a kid. Loved the Flying Tigers. Still do.

My sniper partner and I went to the aviation museum there in Warner Robbins last day of class and read a lot more about Scott.

Those guys had balls that clanked.

Wanted to stop by and see Sinister since I was so close but sniper partner's daughter was in from college so we made like an SR71 for Tejas ...

Boys ... Louisiana/Mississippi is tore up from the floor up ... just like us.

Hurricane season just around the corner.

Hope it isn't like last year ... that shit truly sucks fellas.

brian k. sain
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 03:36:48 (ZULU)

Rickster...

>" 'Lito, you old fart! - Yeah I know about OTC barrels but there is a custom department that will set you up with a good barrel just like our M24s. :) "<

I gots 7 Rems with barrels from the custom shop, and the barrels are equal to the best from Shillen, Lilja and the rest. I don't know if Rem makes them - one is a 5 groove and Rem don't make NO 5 groove barrels no way, so they may get them from outsiders.

So Sir Westley is 55... HA! Rick, do you think we can let him out at night, or should we wait about 40 years so he growd up like us ;)) Double HA!!

Savages...

They used to be the very low end farmer's rifles - you could find a savage behind every farm house kitchen door, or tied (with a piece of brown string) to the fender of half the tractors in the country... the first centerfire rifle I ever shot was a Savage 340 in .22 Hornet - it had ONE lug on the bolt (they couldn't afford the other one ;).

We here on SC used to tease the shit out of guys that had Savages, but in the last 4 or 5 years, Savage has bent over backwards to pull their guns (and image) up, and now they are a class act - nobody has to appoligize for owning a Savage anymore.

As to who makes Savage barrels, I don't know, but they are good barrels.

Plus they have that goofy headspacing system that is absolutly genius.

Winchester stopped making barrels about 900 years ago, and got barrels from Douglas, Wilson, and a few others - on their SS riffles, they use HSP for their second model and they were pretty good (our own JR made them HA!), and I forgot the name of the guy that made the barrels for the first edition, but I got it from the inside that the barrels for the first model SS cost over $750 for the unchambered blank - the first model SS rifle was $2,495, factory direct, and no discount, the second model SS was $1,895. :(((

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 04:00:32 (ZULU)

OK, here's my .02 worth..and probably not worth that much.

I've had 1911's, S&W 625's, Colt Pythons, Offical Police's, New Services, Glocks, SIGS,....don't get me to going...I can probably name all the handguns I've had in 58 years of living and 48 years of firearms. I now have a Sproingfield XD40 (Croat military piece I'm led to believe), a 1960's High Standard, an S&W M29 Mountain pistol, and a 1911 mfg'd in 1918. All of 'em would do a job...mansized targets to a hunnert yards if I did my part, and the High Standard will do ground squirrels (gophers here'bouts) out to 50+ if I can squint hard enough...but 'cept two, both S&W's in the '80's (a M25 in 45 Colt and a 53 stainless 22...couldn't get either to hit the broadside of a barn).

First criteria for me is that any sidarm has to go "bang" when you pull the trigger...every time...so long as there's live ammo in it. Second criteria is that its accuracy is up to the purposes for which its intended. Third is that I don't have to "work" to make it hit what I'm aiming at (i.e. ergonomics for my hand)....down the list is "purty" (see what I have now... probably the ugliest pistol this side of a TC Contender, if you want to call that a pistol).

Just as an added discussion, most all of the "problems" I've had in shooting handguns could be traced directly to the quality of the ammo... revolvers and semiautos both.

OK, since it ain't worth much, you have to get a lot to add up to .02.

I believe Savage makes their own barrels.... somebody can correct me on that, but I'd swear its correct up to the last few years...bout the only "major" mfg. that still does.

"308 semi-auto platforms". I believe I've mentioned here that I have a DPMS LR 308 with an ABS carbon-fiber wrapped barrel and a JARD trigger...that will do everything I need out to as far as I've shot it (600 yds.) Certainly can sustain (as in "acquire-fire" cadence from prone) hits on 12" plates out to that distance. I'm still "breaking it in", (and learning wind issues) so I can't speak to long term durability, but it's just a "big" AR15...same issues, same strengths.

I ain't got the background to pack most of y'all's gatorade, but I do appreciate what you do and how you do it.

Steve in Butte

Steve in Butte
Butte, MT, USofA - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 04:43:16 (ZULU)

Slide shimming- once upon a time, putting a 0.027" shim in the side of the 1911 slide opposite the ejection ports, would compensate for wear on the barrel lugs-or let you get better lockup from a barrel on the way loose tolerances. Cheaper, easier and better to fit a new barrel.

BTW, on most auto pistols you'll notice the sights are on top of the slide. So long as the barrel locks up snugly in the slide, it doesn't matter much how loose the fit to the frame is.

Novak-I've talked to him several times and he's been very helpful on getting tritium sights. However, one of his assistants-prominently mentioned in several gunzines-is someone I wouldn't let shovel manure out of my stable.

WR Moore
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 05:27:58 (ZULU)

Bravo: I looked through my last couple of posts and see that I came off as an asshole. Again. My wife may have been right all along.

As the owner of four (count 'em) Ruger M77s, I have no room to sneer at Tupperware. Even if the triggers do suck.

John Russell
"I've got a question, ..., how're you getting down that hill?" - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 05:54:29 (ZULU)

Wes,

I had a M1A Super Match w/3rd gen scop mount. I really think the M1A is a good "service" rifle. I don't think it can do what a AR can.My HK91 can do very well. Sub MOA but the 16" bbl sucks for long range. I think 600m is about max for this baby. I wish I could get a PSG-1 tranformation for it, but it's a dedicated shit hit the fan rifle. As far as precision goes, I never owned a AR10 but would love to so since I never fired one I won't comment. I only bash or adore what I have owned. I really think the AR has possibilities that most don't. Interchangeability with calibers and in 15 minutes and a few tools you can go from DCM rifle to an M4. I think the modular thing is the way to go for me. The only thing is get the twist for what you want to shoot. I want and use both 1/7 and 1/9. I use 1/7 mostly, it spins the 75gr Hornadys just right.

The only thing about 1/7 is the thinner jacketed stuff can "poop" in flight.

My next upper will probably be different caliber but I can't decide what though. I was thinking 10mm or a .300 Whiper. My "tool" box is well stocked and anything else is just for fun.

I have a peerles M1 Garand in .308 and truly believe that my stock Bushmaster will out shoot it any day. Being a lefty the Garand beats me up with brass. It a pretty gun but I think I may just use it for fun and nothing else. Still, personal preference is 90% in a shooter. Most rifles of good manufacture will out shoot the shooter. Try em all and take home the that fits....like choosing a wife. The rifle won't burn the dinner. We all know what W.I.F.E. stands for...Washing, Ironing, Feeding, and Entertainment. LOL!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 06:06:10 (ZULU)

***************HELP!!!***************

Guys, having trouble @ the reloading bench. For once, I actually STARTED by reading the manual, but my dies don't seem to want to adjust right. I adjust incrementally, and always end up w/either a loose bullet, or a crushed case. When they're not crushed, the neck is bowed, or there's a ring around the base of the neck. After I trim the cases, and go to seat the bullets, sometimes the neck is so loose, the bullet falls down into the case. Any Advice that don't involve throwing it all in the creek would be appreciated.

Also, which digital scales do you guys prefer. Am considering one w/a built in powder thrower.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., The grassy plains - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 06:42:23 (ZULU)

Larry, Sharon, Et al,

Get ahold of Taylor's & Co. inc. They have a model 1892 takedown, whose image I've been salivating over. Available in .38-40, .44-40, .357, .45 LC, and .38 Sp.. Also, they have 1885 high and low wall single shots in .38-40 and .38-55, as well as other cartridges. .38-40 is also available in their 1873 models. While ya have the credit card out, I'll take one of the 1892's!

Click my name for a link to their website.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., Trapped under a fat woman - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 08:29:28 (ZULU)

Bad Karma wrote:

"Being a lefty the Garand beats me up with brass."

The ejector spring on the Garand is over-powered. Simplifies production tolerance in a combat rifle, but the consequence is that it throws the ejected cases as far backwards as it can. That is a liability for lefties and reloaders.

Bart Bobbit describes removing a coil or so of the ejector spring, which makes the Garand's ejection much more civilized:

"The most common cause of scratched (or dented) cases from an M1 is they bounce off the operating rod near the handle when the bolt's all the way back. What happens is the ejector spring is very strong and as soon as the empty case mouth clears the chamber, the ejector pushes the case head away from the bolt face very fast and hard. As the extractor holds the case head at 2-'clock and the ejector pushes the case out at its 8-'clock position, the case flips backwards over the opening bolt and bounces off the operating rod. Inspecting the op rod hump near its handle will probably show brass colored streaks at that point. Empty cases usually have a tiny dent near the shoulder.

Another indicator is the empty cases are thrown backwards from the rifle at about a 4- to 5-o'clock angle to the line of fire or bouncing off the shooter's glasses or forehead.

The cure is to make the ejector spring weaker. Using an M1 combination tool in the chamber, close the bolt on it, then remove the extractor and its spring and next remove the ejector and its spring.

Using a good, hard pair of diagonal cutters, cut off two turns of the ejector spring. Reassemble the bolt, then fire several rounds. If the rounds aren't ejecting forward at about 2-o'clock from the line of fire, take the extractor and ejector out, then cut another turn off the ejector spring. Try it again. When the ejector spring is perfect, empty cases will pile up about three feet away at the 2-o'clock position. And ther won't be any more cases bouncing off your fore head.

Years ago when on a military rifle team, I was given a couple dozen M1's to take to the function firing range to 'tune' their ejector springs. It took between 2 and 5 turns cut off to get the empties ejecting forward and to the right a couple of feet away. In fact, a friend of mine and I had a contest once to see who could shoot the smallest diameter pile of empty cases after tuning several Garands' ejector springs. He won."

RSR:

I used a hammer, small chisel and a small steel plate to cut the spring. I used a piece of 240 grit silicon carbide paper (on top of the steel plate) to smooth the cut end of the spring down flat. Cutting 2 turns or so was my experience.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 11:17:01 (ZULU)

Sir Wes: Whatcha doin' poking at Fords??? By selling SUVs to dumb-ass wanna-bees, we get prices down for those of us who dawg em out on the back forty. Heheh. Now dodge is known to shit trannies, and GMs have a penchant for mushy car-like suspensions....Ford is my answer. And diesels get stoopid fuel economy to boot. Gots an expedition and an 3/4 ton; but want an excursion with the powerstroke option for the new family wagon. Not many other choices for a family of four kids, three in carseats and a lanky teen taller than dad...unless I relent to the minivan pressures. No way...and yes, both the small wagon and the big truck had replacement surgery on suspension parts due to misuse and abuse off road. So there! Heheh. And don't tell me how broken parts prove anything about fords---what I did woulda broke a M1A2...rolling two foot logs under 28" of snow does in all makes and models. Come to think of it, I have had to use chainsaws three times now to free up my rides....maybe I need a D7....

Eagle Jr: savage makes 'em with buttons; and it ain't a bad way to go. They are, as I am told, very secretive about how they do bidness beyond that. A guy who works with me at McCoy had the 'special tour" and they were hushed about their pipes and triggers (the accu trigger was about to debut that same year).

I too am no longer willing to laugh at savage...not after Geoff's rifle is as good side by side as an FN SPR...at half the price.

Rod: That qualifies as trivia...who knows such stuff? heheh.

Boris
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 11:59:11 (ZULU)

Travis,

I have the link to Taylor's... Mighty purdy, but I don't need a 'take-down' and really can't afford one. I sent them an email asking about a non-take-down, but have NOT received an answer.

'lito,

I am very glad 'things' are starting to turn around and look up. We are rooting for ya!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 13:42:12 (ZULU)

John,

"Bravo: I looked through my last couple of posts and see that I came off as an asshole. Again. "

Add me to that list.

Duman

Duman
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 16:42:34 (ZULU)

Russel...

Who Dis Russel guy ??? (Ok, ok, I fix it! RUSSELL!!)

>" I think I'll pull a "Boris" or a "catshooter" and change my name.

Yeah. I'll do that. "<

Mang, ya' need a score card to keep up with the players on dis damn site!

OK... lookie here you Russel guy. If you tired of being who you was, and wanna be somebody new, you gotta post a formal name change, so we know who the hell were talking to.

Like "Xxxxxxx now = Russel"

OK??

Dang!!

Even!!

Travis...

What are you loading, what dies are you using, what calibre, and what sequence are you doing stuff in.

We have done the digital scale thing about two weeks ago... they are slow and less accurate than a decent scale... and VERY expensive for what they do.

And... you know it's cruel and unusual punisment to flaunt a bottle of dark spiced Rum in front of a reformed rummy???... well it's just as cruel to lead an innocent shooter that is on the "Gun" wagon, and tempt him to fall off the wagon (in front of the gun store).

Well that link to Taylor is cruel and beautiful punishment... a '92 takedown in 38-40??

This ain't SC... this is Gun-aholics anonymous!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 17:12:08 (ZULU)

Two "l"s in Russell. It's a google thing.

John Russell
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 17:37:14 (ZULU)

John Russell...

>"Pablo: Two "l"s in Russell. It's a google thing.

John Russell"<

And WE KNOW who the real John Russell is, don't we - good damn good choice - now you gots to haul yo' ass to live up to the name - a HARD JOB for you, hombre'

The line is... "Would ju please tell me his name?"

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 18:04:01 (ZULU)

Hornady 30 cal 178 A-Max bullet???

Have any of you guys used this bullet on live critters??

I built an M24 in 300 Win Mag (10" twist) a few years ago, and it's real nice - set up with a 10x MK4-M3 camed scope and dead nutz accurate with the 190SMK at 2950.

But nobody is shooting these in my area - no space... so it's hangs on the wall in the gun safe.

I'm interested in using the 178 A-Max on live critters at long range. Now, the smaller calibres of the A-Max's have thin jackets like the V-Maxs and will blow to pieces on flesh. And the nice guy at Hornady says that the front half of the 30 cal 178 A-Max has the same wall thickinss as the little 224 V-Maxs.

Will the 178's do the same?

I'm looking to use this 300WM for long range varmints from Woodchucks to coyotes and other 50 to 70 pounds varmints at 500 to 1000 yds.

(No, no, I'm not going to whack my Ex... she weighs 250# ;)))

I know it has worked well on a pack of ferel dogs, but I didn't get a chance to view the "DB's", as they were left in the field and were chewed on by other ferrel dogs... what's you guys experence??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 19:10:48 (ZULU)

'Lito-san: I live on a 1600 yard rifle range. I think you should ship me that M24/300 W.M. I'll take real good care of it for you, and ensure that it doesn't get lonely. Shall I send you an email with the shipping address? :-)

Lindy
Fifteen miles from where Cheney shot the lawyer, U.S.A. - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 20:06:45 (ZULU)

Lindy...

Mang, I'm touched at your generosity - do I have stand up friends or what ;)

But I don't want to subject you that the recoil of that mean ol' 300 WM ;)

Where you live? A real 1600 yd range (pitty pat, pitty pat), or just 1600 yds of open land (which also workie for me!).

Me and the better half are planing to leave this shitty state in a few years when she gets fully vested in her retirement.

We're looking at Va - in fact Ken Hunter was up here for a visit a few weeks ago (he's in Nokesville) and we talked about the southern Virginia/North Carolina border area - maybe 15 to 30 acres of land that we could lease out for grazing and I could raise a small heard of woodchucks, and I could open a gun business. Who says retirement is boring ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 20:35:27 (ZULU)

Does anyone know of a good set of ear muffs that you can listen to some tunes while you shoot that would be great.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 20:41:11 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

I got two - one with a AM/FM radio built in - works pretty good, and one with a plug for an external radio - music or two way FRS or Maritime for the airboat (makes a Big roar!).

I bought both on eBay for cheaps.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 20:45:06 (ZULU)

Pablo: "...now you gots to haul yo' ass to live up to the name..."

Nothing so dramatic. I wanted a name with the right Google properties. That name popped into my head because my son and I just watched the movie. It was pretty funny. The dialogue with the Richard Boone character at the top of the stairs cracked us up.

John Russell
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 21:00:04 (ZULU)

Re: 92 Winchester 38-40

Larry/Sharon

Yeah, I gots one of those. Kinda hesitated to bring it up though. Didn't want you and Lito slobbering all over it. <just kiddin>

Rifle model (circa 1900...whatever) with octagon barrel, full length magazine. Action slicker than black ice. Antiquey (petina) lookin on the outside. Original condition (as in no redneck gunsmith has messed with it) and a nice shiny bore. Shoots cloverleafs @ 60 yards. Why 60? Well, that's just happened to be where my target stand was that day and thats about as far as most Cowboy Action shooters take it. Exceptin I haven't shot CAS in quite a while.....

You guys experience any of the recent "burn" up in the Panhandle?

Got a friend in Miami, TX that had to EVAC his family out and he stayed and hosed all his property down with water. Said it got dangerous close for that little town. Said the big tanker planes from the Forest Service helped out a bunch as well.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 22:31:09 (ZULU)

No worries guys, really.

Should have said in the beginning, I’m not looking to “make converts”. Picking a handgun is a very personal thing. Kind of like skivvies. I might ask what your preference is in brand, or how they work for you, but I don’t want to try yours any more than you want to try mine (GRIN). I know mine by the way they fit.

On triggers, I agree completely. Glocks suck out of the box. I don’t let the out of the box trigger deter me unduly though. If I did, based on the last few S&W revolvers I’ve bought, I’d can that brand as unacceptable too. Guess I’ve just gotten to the point where I feel remedial work on the trigger actions is something to be expected on all manufacturers. Mostly that means a smith, but in rare cases, I can do it myself.

BK, CDC stands for “center for disease control”. The goobermint has theirs, which has chosen to treat firearm violence like a disease instead of crime. We’ve got ours, which treats liberal mentality (if one can call it that) like a disease, and illustrates how liberal actions (or lack thereof) are borderline criminal. I like ours better. And how did you get a HK91 that goes out to 600? I was complaining that the ones I’ve had pooped out at 400M, due to the sights. Then someone told me that I could swap a 1200M sight on there (made of unobtainium) and go much farther. I’ve never found one for sale. Never heard of a 600... educate me!

As for Glock Perfection, I say it a different way: Smyrna Shmucks. The deal for me is that they flatly work. John had some interesting takes on why yesterday, it wasn’t a quick call. What I’m hoping is that I can have my cake and eat it too. Cake = 1911, eat it too = an utterly reliable specimen. The biggie I learned from John was WHY the mass produced pistols aren’t reliable. Like I said, the guy impressed me as knowing his stuff both inside and out.

Sir Wes, I don’t change barrels out and question how the factory one would have shot, I purchase a stick in a caliber I’m not up to load for and really don’t have much interest in, with a barrel contour all wrong for my application. Then I stick a different tube on it. I call ‘em “action donors” ;-) Best of luck with the ratgun! I recall Master Rick making statements on Armalite and Stoner. That’s where I’d head if I were going that direction.

Patron 'Lito, if you get an answer on your 178 AMAXes, please let me know. I'm guessing it'd be very similar for the next weight down LOL!

And folks, I'll ask some prayer time again. One of my closest friends today let me know that his wife has decided to run off. I get the feeling that if she just doesn't rake him over the coals, it'll be just fine. The raking part is what I'm asking support for.

Bravo
Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 22:58:07 (ZULU)

Bravo...

>"Patron 'Lito, if you get an answer on your 178 AMAXes, please let me know. I'm guessing it'd be very similar for the next weight down"<

I got an e-mail from "He who knows all" about 'yote shooting at long range, and I quote:

"That round will blow a hole in a yote you can stick your arm in and not get it bloody at any range.".

Nuff said - when the weather gets better, I'm gonna drag that big puppy off the wall and work up some loads for that 178.

With a BC of .500, it should track the M3 cam same as the 190SMK - it's gonna be grease to shoot - you know... the 2 "D"s ;))

And my prayers go to your friend - I gots that tee-shirt in SPADES!!

MK4...

I tried to e-mail you a quart of slobber for your 38-40, but it wouldn't go through the 'puter ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 00:01:43 (ZULU)

Bravo,

The HK is fitted with a ARMS mount and a Leupold 10x. The sights on the HK are rather crude for such a fine weapon. The load I use is either the 155gr SMK with 47.0gr Varget or the 175gr SMK with 44.5gr Varget. It does fine with optics. I like the irons for CQB stuff.

Rod,

Thanks for the info on the Garand. I also would like to know if you know anythinf about the adjustable gas systems they sell for them. I know the .308 one I have really filgs the brass out. They get dented twice, once hitting the op rod the other dent comes from my head. I think that ball powders create too much port pressure. The ball powders have interesting burn patterns. Like for example, a ball powder heats the barrel up from the muzzle back and extruded seems to heat the barrel uniformly.

I need a take down tool so I can try removing a coil or two. The thing that gets me is that the rifle being so well built just doesn't shoot as well as one would expect payint $2k plus for it. I think I just need to load tune it.

Travis,

Tell me what your reloading process is. I need to know the caliber and brand of brass. I had a problem with Remington brass for a time. Most problems can be solved with eith annealing or replacing the expander ball. just a note, I stopped using spray lubes because I had several cases stick in the die and ripped the rim off. That is a real bitch! I use RCBS case lube 2. Anyway I have 25+ years reloading and if I can help a fellow shooter/reloader I will.

All,

Went to the NRA Banquete last night and had a lot of fun. The hired some super model babes to entice us to buy raffle tickets. I left my wallet at home just to avoid the temptation.

Semper Fi!!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 00:21:18 (ZULU)

M855 stuff,

I had an idea that I tried a few years back I inverted the bullets on some 30-06s to see what would happen, It took a 3" branch off an oak tree. A bullet puller and a lee loader is all you need. I think if an Iraqi scum bag gets nailed with an inverted M855 it's all she wrote. Ya know my great Grandpa was a Captain in His Royal Army in India. When the muslims got out of hand they just shot a bunch opened a pit, tossed em in, and poured pig shit on them just to make sure they got the message! Ah, the good ole days.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 00:33:49 (ZULU)

re: Garand bolt disassembly

Brownells sells the deluxe bolt takedown tool, works for M1/ M1A / M14. You can also use the combo tool to take down the bolt

while it's in the rifle.

I have the deluxe tool, got it from Fulton Armory while they were still shipping to Canada. (They don't any longer).

Brownells # 080-818-000

I've seen at least one adjustable gas system for the Garand listed in Brownells, no direct experience with same. Some folks swear by them, since they make it easy to use really heavy bullets in the Garand w/o destroying parts due to excessive gas port pressure curves.

Brownells # 100-000-402

The ball powders will have different barrel heating pattern,

that's part of their design. I've used both ball and extruded in the Garand, I'm currently using a non-canister-grade extruded with 165g SP's.

Bart Bobbit argues that when shooting without a machine rest, the reduced action time of the extruded powders permit human operators to acheive better accuracy than with ball powders.

This is in all long guns.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 00:57:19 (ZULU)

Travis-I had similar problems in .223. Changed to a carbide expander ball and had my problems solved. With a lot less case trimming from case stretching I might add. One of those case length gauges to make sure your size die is set right will also help.

WR Moore
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 01:16:53 (ZULU)

Rod,

I suprised that the Canadian Communist Party hasn't hunted you down and purged your whole family by now! I didn't think you guys could own such a firearm. Anyway, thanks for the info, the Garand isn't a priority right now. Getting or making as much .223 as possible is.

Hey, now that you guys up there have a new PM, what do you think the future of C10 is? I hope that it's tossed in the trash. If you guys want we can ask Rummy for another war of liberation for you.LOL.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 01:34:41 (ZULU)

The .308 Garand may need an extra-power recoil spring, which might slow down the bolt and ejection. Wolff sells extra power Garand springs (mainsprings?) for .308 conversions. You might try that before you start cutting springs. Anyway, a new spring can't hurt.

http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html

USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 01:41:33 (ZULU)

If you decide to kill something significant with your .300, you might want try the 200 gr Nosler Accubonds. Mine shoot within a minute of the 190 SMKs to 1K and they were accurate enough to come within two points of winning the match. My .300 is a hunter with a stock barrel. His 6 BR was a dedicated, HIGH dollar F-class rifle.

John Russell
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 02:04:39 (ZULU)

John, what load are you using for the 200's?

Bolt
NC, - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 02:10:57 (ZULU)

re: Garand recoil springs, Canadian firearm laws

I found the Wolff recoil springs overpowered for the Garand in .30-06, unused GI-spec worked just fine. Don't know about .308 Garands. Too bad, I like using Wolff springs in my Glocks.

A few years ago Canadian residents were getting the Danish surplus Garands that the US wouldn't permit to be imported as complete units. I detail stripped, cleaned and inspected several for friends. Prices around $C250. (I like to make US collectors cry :-) Including such rare stuff as Breda mfgr units. Lots of Beretta mfgr units.

Serious trivia - M1 Garand was a service arm for the Royal Canadian Air Force in the post-WWII era for a while. Apparently they were practicing arms commonality with the USAF at that point in history. Ditto for the 1911A1 pistol.

With Canadian federal Bill C-17 in the 1990's, semi-auto centerfire rifles were limited to 5 round limit in Canada. One of the few exceptions was the M1 Garand, which was exempted to permit use of the 8-round en-bloc clips in Canada.

So, you can have a 5-round AR15 in .223 Rem, or an M1 Garand with 8-rounds of .30-06. The AR15 is also in the same category as handguns in Canada, whereas the M1 Garand is in the category of a hunting rifle.

Tough choice :-)

If you want more info on Canadian guns laws, here is one of the best summaries I have seen. Written by an American who has spent time in Canada in the past, and who actually has a Canadian firearm license.

http://panda.com/canadaguns/

By the way, we can have shorter-barrelled shotguns (14" for pumps) in Canada as hunting arms that would be AOW's in the US :-)

http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/N870-14.00.shtm

The Canadian government will also permit Chinese mfgr arms and ammunition to be imported. The US traded away that option for US residents in exchange for other concessions with China.

This is not to say it's all roses for Canadian firearm owners trying to comply with the assinine laws, but it's interesting that the details are not exactly the same on each side of the border...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 02:45:23 (ZULU)

Savage barrels are button rifled and I believe are still made by Savage. Yes, the barrel nut is very ingenius. You can swap from a .223 to a .458 in under 30 minutes. Saves lots of money as you don't need a gunsmith if you have barrels that are already threaded and chambered.

Savage does test fire there rifles before shipping them.

Not too biased am I?

www.savageshooters.net

I do have other rifles but they are older ones like a 1936 Remington Model 41 and a Winchester M-1 Carbine from 1943.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 02:57:24 (ZULU)

MK IV, If you're interested in parting with that sweety, I'm interested... I'm only 3 - 4 hours North of ya! We aren't involved in the range fires. They started about 20 miles East and 4 South. We could see the glow in the night sky, however. I saw the smoke plume about the time it started. Bad stuff!

Travis, 'lito, others,

Looky at www.legacysports.com

'lito

>>>Me and the better half are planing to leave this shitty state in a few years when she gets fully vested in her retirement.<<<

Better half, BETTER HALF!?!?!? Are you foolin' around on me? I didn't you you had one...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 03:10:18 (ZULU)

Bolt:

.300 WM Rem Sendero

200 gr Nosler Accubond

Rem Brass (I know, but I got a hell of a deal.)

72.8 gr R22

Fed standard LR primer (I forget the number)

3.61 OAL

3000 mean fps

I would have to go back to the data for the standard deviation, but it wasn't much. Case expansion was negligable so this load was mild. The reason for such an unlikely bullet speed is that these loads were meant to track my 190 SMK loads.

John Russell
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 03:21:26 (ZULU)

Travis,

What dies and what brass are you using?

I had some W-W 308 cases that were very thin. I had to go to a .331 bushing for my Redding sizer to get the 175MK to fit. They would just fall right in with my "standard" .336. Lapua, Remmy,Fed (patooy!),and mil. all pretty much use .336 bushings. My Black Hills are a little thin like the Winnies.

Measure the neck O.D. of some loaded rounds and compare that to your fired rounds. Then size 'em and measure again. I would also compare neck wall thickness on your brass.

Just some thoughts to keep you laying awake mullin' it over @ 0darkthirty. Like I do... heehee.

Could be thin-walled brass and a generous-sized neck in your die.

Reddings are the way to go. I learned the hard way. 'Lito taught me well.

Glad to hear you're in the positive zone Cat-Killer. Maybe prtayers work after all...

Semper-fi!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 03:30:26 (ZULU)

Travis,

Get to Sinclait Intl. website and see if they explain neck tension. If not, get their catalog. Best prices for best stuff. S&H only 7+ bones not matter the amount o' goddies.

They explain to measure the OD of your loaded round at the neck. Subtract .002". That's the size bushing to use.

I HATE typing!!!!!!!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 03:35:51 (ZULU)

Brian, man you should have come by -- we just finished the All-Army Championships, and the Long Range Championships yesterday.

The gunsmiths finally finished (thanks to Marty at Badger) 36 of the clip-slotted Vietnam-era Remington 700 barreled short actions that we found sitting in storage in the back of the arms room . We have no idea what their pedigree might be, but they're stamped US and look like PSS/VS actions.

The boys powder-coated all the barreled actions black and put them into new H-S Precision stocks. These are neat -- they're the same style as the M24 with the thumbwheel adjustable length of pull, but they also have an adjustable saddle cheekpiece for proper eye height (no need for a pad or stock bag). They ordered H-S Precision single-stack 10-shot box magazine floorplates and mags, put on the front iron sight block, and topped all guns with Badger 20 MOA rails, rings, and M3LRs.

The gunsmiths had the Service Rifle Team zero all guns at 600 yards on the KD range, and the boys said they hold 10-ring elevation. Most were sub-MOA, some at MOA, and they DX'ed three actions with three others because the barrels were gone (remember, these actions are all probably mid- to late-60s to early 70s vintage).

Glenn S. zeroed one rifle at 1,000 yards, and decided to see if he could hit an E-type, standing, at 1,000 Meters (1,100 yards) with M118LR. He missed the first shot wide. He hit with #2 and #3 and said he was quitting while he was ahead.

We had 30 National Match M14s to loan out and 36 "M40/M24 Short Actions" for the Army Long Range Championships. We had 130 shooters.

The first day (Sunday) was Long Range Firing School and practice in the morning, everyone shooting issued Federal 168 GMM. An SF Captain from Campbell shot the only clean with a 200-9 in the 600 yard match in the afternoon. Monday afternoon in the 800 yard match using M118LR we had seven cleans.

Yesterday we shot the 1,000 yard match and there were lots of hurt feelings. General McNeill from FORSCOM awarded the champions SECARMY trophy rifles -- an M1903 to a 3rd SF Group SFC in Sniper class and an M1 to an Army Reserve buck Sergeant shooting an M14 in Service class.

The SF sniper brought a Knight's Mark 11, Mod 0 with him from Bragg with all the bells and whistles. I saw him practice with it, but come the first match he was shooting a Remington M40X his sniper locker told him was shot out. I asked him, "Why the bolt gun? I saw you practicing with the Stoner." He replied, "It'll only hold 9-ring. I need the points." The winds were punishing yesterday but he shot a 195 for the high 1,000 yard score and the whole ball of wax.

Wes, if you want a self-loading repeater go to the AR10T or a DPMS and have George build it. I think Andy's Dad will probably endorse that as well.

I am told Knight's won the XM-110 contract to provide 30 prototype rifles for the Army to de-bug before it goes to Operational Testing. I am told it didn't win, but sucked the least and had all the accessories in a one-stop shopping bag. They're charging your uncle $16,500 per system.

We'll probably build AR10Ts to replace our M14s when they finally give up the ghost.

Lots of neat new technology coming out like micro-finish polishing (for the inside of magazines), hard protective finishes, and super-slippery polymer for autoloading magazine followers.

sinister
Fort Benning, GA, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 03:48:36 (ZULU)

'Lito:

Click on my name for the link. That's where I'm currently in residence.

I'm supposed to be retired - but the guy who runs this place has other ideas. Right now, I'm just tired, but I'll be all better in the morning, when the sun comes up over the tower.

And the sun sets over the killhouse... :-)

Lindy
Fifteen miles from where the VP shot the lawyer, U.S.A. - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 04:15:25 (ZULU)

Anyone,

Has anyone shot the Radway Green .223 SS109 ammo? If so what is your opinion of it? I've had problems in the past with thier .308 stuff. Well not problems, but inaccurate and dirty. The worst .308 stuff ever for me was Cavim .308. It was so tarry it jammed my HK91! Now thats bad! Also I haven't tried Olympic M855 stuff, any takes on it?

I noticed Wideners is selling IMI M855 slugs, is this the "full core" stuff? It has no colored tip. Anyway just looking for decent quality thats still affordable.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 05:09:08 (ZULU)

Russell... (HA!, I love it!!)

>" Pablo: If you decide to kill something significant with your .300, you might want try the 200 gr Nosler Accubonds. Mine shoot within a minute of the 190 SMKs to 1K and they were accurate enough to come within two points of winning the match. My .300 is a hunter with a stock barrel. His 6 BR was a dedicated, HIGH $$$ F-troop rig."<

Naw... this is gonna be my LARGE varmint rig so I can get some shooting time with this $3k bucket of pieces parts ;)

The 178 V-Max will track the 190SMK exactly with the MK4-M3 cam. I load H-4350 and that stuff is so clean burning that the insides of a fired case is still brass colored... no black deposits, no case stretch - it's a nice load.

I don't like the list of ingrediants on the side of the RL powders - lets me know where that old blue polyester suit went... (5% to 7% polyester???) :(((

I don' need no steeenkin' polyester in my gunpowder!!!

Sharon...

Of course I'm "Foolin' around on you"... I gots to keep you on your best behavior, so you'll dress to impress... a little red fishnet would help ;) ;)

Spud...

>"They explain to measure the OD of your loaded round at the neck. Subtract .002". That's the size bushing to use."<

Not hardly... When these dies first came out, the only folks that were willing to pay $85 for a neck sizer were the benchrest loonies. They all turn their necks and use chambers that have (literally) 1 thou clearence in the chamber with a loaded round. When a round like this is fired, the case neck expands a total of 1 thou to seal the neck walls... with a little spring back, the neck returns to the SAME size as the loaded case - is fact, many Bench shooters don't size the neck, they just prime the case, put powder in, and seat the bullet with their fingers, cuz there is enough neck tension to hold it in place.

For these guys, sizing the neck 2 thou is fine, and that's where that "2 thou" rule came from.

But for us low lifes that shoot match grade chambers with real world SAMMI necks, the case neck expands 6 to 8 thou... and the 2 thou under bushing won't work. It will size the neck TOO MUCH by 8 to 10 thou.

I know that doesn't make sense, so I'll 'splain.

As you probably know, reamers get dull, and don't cut too well - they chatter and make six sided chambers (very hard to see the "sides" as they are only a rounded vallys only a few thou deep). When they start to missbehave, they're sent mack to be sharpened - which makes them smaller, and often not as perfectly straight - so each suceeding set of cuts in the reamer's life span get's smaller and smaller (and less SAMMI as it goes along), until it is below SAMMI minumum, and then it gets ground to a smaller calibre if possible.

So the "First cuts" on a match reamer are the largest, but the very best. The first cuts aren't as large as a hunting reamer, but they are not a close neck fit either.

Back when I built the 300 Win Mag I was talking about a few posts above this (2001/2002??), I had that barrel cut with a fine "First cut" match reamer. It is soooo smooth that you can not tell if a case has been fired, cuz there is zero marks on the outside of the case.

When the gun was being built, I measured a loaded round, subtracted 2 thou and ordered a bushing.

When I sized my first fired cases, the bullets had a badd time getting into the case - I thought, "What the hell is wrong". I remeasured everything and all as it should be "according to Redding".

Then I took the bushing out and put it over the neck of a sized case, and VOILA... it dropped down loosely. Now it was really "What the hell??"

I thought how could that be - the neck can't be 3 or 4 thou smaller than the die that sized it.

The dies had a small feed cone, or bevel at the mouth to center the case neck...

After some thought, and looking up the metalergy of brass, it dawned on me that if the necks were much larger that the dies, the brass necks would flow down the cone for 5 to 7 thou before hitting the barrel section... that cone gave the brass a movement to flow at about 45 degrees before entering the barrel section - the brass was OVER SHOOTING the barrel by several thou before straightening out.

I called Redding and talked to their head engineer named Patrick, and went over this with him for about 1/2 hour... he said "Can't nevea eva happen!". So I said, go take a 30 cal hunting case and run it through a bushing that is 8 or 10 thou smaller and call me.

Two days later, he called and said, "Hmmmm that's interesting".

Now, in the catalogue, they don't recomend 2 thou under any more. They say it can vary.

If you are sizing a case that is NOT from a bench gun with a tight neck, you will need a bushing that is 2 or 3 thou LARGER than the desired finishred size... make sense? NO!!

At this point, it is trial and error for standard match chambers.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 05:40:49 (ZULU)

Guys,

Re: HELP!!!!

I'm using once fired brass from Winchester .30-06 factory ammo. Not tumbling, as I have no tumbler. My process is as follows:

1. Decap shells.

2. put shells in loading blocks.

3. Go work out of town 60 hours a week for months on end.

4. Re-organise garage, and decide to take another run @ "this reloading bidness."

5. Find out I need to buy more crap for step #4.

6. Argue w/wife about buying said crap.

7. Measure case length and sort.

8. Trim cases to same length as loaded factory ammo.

9. De-burr insides of case necks VERY slightly, and only at the very top, using turnip shaped dremel stone.

10. Put my carefully prepared cases into RCBS rockchucker press, using RCBS dies, ruin said cases.

11. Start cussing, pulling hair out, and re-reading all info on hand.

I have tried turning dies forward/backward, same w/seater plug, fractions of a turn @ a time. I have tried using case lube, no case lube. (case lube used is the RCBS stuff that came w/kit.) Next logical step is going out and buying new Winchester brass.

Anyone in the Wichita area that knows more about this, and wants to come by and help, hit me off-line.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., Trapped under a fat woman - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 06:53:06 (ZULU)

"Lito,

You bum. (Said witha smile.)

Now I'm gonna be wrappin' my head around MORE stuff. sheesh.

Guess I'll order up some more bushings and "play".

damn...

At any rate, it works pretty good for me. But it would be nice to keep my Lapua brass as long as possible.

I'll try it in a few weeks after the move to the new house and after I get a chance to create a pile o'Lappy brass.

Thanks.

I am humbled.

Take care, old friend.

Semper-Fi!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 07:06:48 (ZULU)

Rod - on Garand springs.

I don't think there is any need for an extra power spring in a Garand if you are shooting mil-spec (delete) ammo in .30-06. Though fresh springs are good. However, its like any other thing when you change one factor - like shortening a 1911 slide. A lot of other things work differently, too.

Changing the caliber to .308 is one thing. The size of the gas vent hole in the barrel changes another thing. Garand .308 barrels are not all the same. Some people pick their 1911 spring based on where the brass lands. I don't see why a Garand recoil spring can't work the same way. Its just one variable, however. I put the Wolff spring in my M1 .308. It has an older Wilson barrel. Works fine, and I shoot left handed.

I don't think these things matter much until you start changing something from the original design, like the cartridge or the gas vent hole size in the barrel. Then each rifle is "more different".

Been wrong twice before, however.

P. Hayden
USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 07:38:52 (ZULU)

Travis-If you want to chamfer case necks, get yourself a countersink at the local hardware store. Give it a partial spin with your fingers and you gots a chamfer. You might want to consider sending the dies back to RCBS and try some Reddings.

'Lito's description of chambering is good. Production reamers start at absolute max acceptable size to allow for muliple resharpenings, cut larger as they get dull.

WR Moore
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 11:21:35 (ZULU)

P. Hayden

I believe you mis-read my earlier Garand spring posting.

To re-sumarize:

- Wolff spring in .30-06 Garand - too much of a good thing

- unused replacment GI spec spring in .30-06 Garand - works great

- no experience w/.308 Garand springs

I chose the term "unused" for the GI spec spring since I don't know if they are of recent mfgr, but they are "fresh". The term "new" is a bit iffy for something likely manufactured at least 3 decades ago.

I was using either commercial lighter bullet .30-06 loadings (150, 165g) or handloads using suitable burning rate powders and 165g projectiles duplicating published mil-spec loadings.

158g loadings in .30-06? New one on me :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 12:01:30 (ZULU)

And the idiot award goes to................ME!

Apparently, my problem was, I either had not sized the cases long ago, or had the sizer die set wrong. Thanks for all the help. I'm currently working on the next dumbass malfunction I'll need help with.

W.R. Moore, Re: Chamfering, I have countersinks. Good idea, I just felt that I'd rather not remove too much metal @ once.

Case trimmers.......I found out that if you take the handle off of your case trimmer, it'll chuck up in a cordless drill. Beats the shit out of busting my neanderthal knuckles on the bench every turn, also.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks, - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 13:13:23 (ZULU)

Pablo: You don't impress me a bit. There's a simple explaination for you knowing all this stuff. If you learn one thing a year since the pre-cambrian era, it starts to add up.

Anyway, for anybody who wants to use a .300 Win for big game at long range:

My data confirms the Sierra Infinity program. At about 3000 fps, the 200 Accubond tracks the 190 SMK within 1/2 min to 700 yards. They start to depart a bit more after that. Spring with the A-max bullets. Summer with the SMKs. Fall with the Accubonds. Same come-ups. It's almost like being in love.

Now you only need one rifle. You can sell all the rest of them and give the $$ to your wife. She can spend it on slip-covers, doilies, and crap. It'll be great.

John Russell
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 13:41:05 (ZULU)

Hogs a couple of questions

1. I picked up a heavy bbl Match M1 Garand. Springfield Military receiver with get this, serial number 7,005,5XX. Its a 308 match rifle that has non military stock but everything but bbl is US Mil marked Springfield. I am told it was built by Springfield Armory in early 1980's as "Ultra Match" Not a reweld not an aftermarket receiver. Who can tell me when this receiver was made and any history on it/rifle. Its also just about unfired.

2. Ken and I have been going back and forth on this. I gave SC an articcle on the 4-16x42 SxB and he says its been put up in review section. Hell he sent me direct link to article and following that link I can read it, but when I just click on Reviews direct I cant see on my comp. I have cleared my temp internet files several times and cache files but cant make it work. Any ideas what my comp is doing? I run AOL.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 15:26:49 (ZULU)

You know... I wish I had more faith in Remington... I just found out that they're making the Sendero in .264 Win Mag, with a 26" tube... kinda like a PSS on steroids, with a little lightning thrown in...

... but I don' wanna go through what I have with my last few Rems (including my current rifle - they are going to replace the whole rifle - Brand friggin' new, and they have to replace the whole friggin rifle - and it only takes 3 weeks :((

I love the .264 WM - I had one of the orginal Winchester "Westerners", and it was the "Hammer of Thor".

Spud...

>"Now I'm gonna be wrappin' my head around MORE stuff. sheesh."<

You know the one about "He who dies with the most stuff, wins??? It took me a FULL year to move up here (paid for both places during the move:(((

Well, I ain't even dead and I already won, HA! ;)))))))))))))))))

Youz gots some catching up to do ;))

Go buy some more stuff!

Travis...

Your discription of your loading process cracked me up at 9:00 AM, and that's not an easy thing to do.

>"And the idiot award goes to..."<

We've all been there.

Back when I first started loading (for the new invention, the match lock ;).. aw, that's another story.

I, and most of us, have learned to NEVER EVER put stuff away half done - it begs for problems down the line, and some of the problems can have serious results.

So my rules when I can't finish the whole batch of loads from start to finish at one sitting are...

Do each step to completion... if you only have 30 minutes before dinner or the rugrat has to go to music lessons, then size/deprime ALL the cases and quit - put them in coffee cans with a note "Sized, not wiped" or whatever. Then the next time you have 30 minutes, prime them ALL before quiting.

If you get interupted half way through a step (the rugrat is barfing on the sofa), DON'T put them away... leave them out and finish that step FULLY before putting them away.

Keep your cases in coffee cans - as you grow as a loader, your collection of coffee cans grows with you.

When you go to the store, and your hunny says, "Oh Travis sweetie, look at that cute 8oz can of 'French mocha, lottie foo-foo coffee', lets try it."...

... your answer will be "No hunny, lets get 'Franky's Killer Kafene Cheap Coffee', it comes in really great 5 pound cans!"

If you do this, you will avoid all kinds of problems down the road (except those with your hunny over the "French mocha, lottie foo-foo coffee").

P.S... dremmel stones = grit. Martha Stewart says "Grit near guns??... now, THAT'S a badd thing!!"

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 15:41:13 (ZULU)

Lito,

Amen on the 5lb coffee cans. I threw 21 of them away 2 years ago when I moved. I am back up to about 10 now. They are great. Old business cards are also used to write note on. 'Sized ready to load Fired II' or 'Cleaned only Fired I' etc. Helpful, when you rediscover a couple hundred cases you forgot you had due to CRS.

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 17:04:17 (ZULU)

Rod:

You're right about .30-06 springs. I was agreeing with you. I may not have been clear. Typing under difficult conditions. You had to be there.

P. Hayden
USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 17:40:19 (ZULU)

The plastic coffee containers are more better'er IMO, as they don't rust after a while like the metal ones. Also, I just write on the top or side with a Sharpie, it'll wipe off with a paper towel and a little WD-40. See, that stuff's good for something:)

When you move up to the big leagues(like for p-dog brass and such) 5 gallon plastic paint buckets work great. Swing by the local hotdog stand and see if they'll give you an old pickle bucket if you get the double cheeseburger/cheese fry combo for all your buddies at work or something. Nothing says fun like a 5 gal bucket of 223 loaded with 50gn V-maxes and a fresh p-dog town.

Lito, why do something you know Remmie will dick up? They have that 264Win reamer in the custom shop, we trust you to do the right thing. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 19:26:54 (ZULU)

Ken...

For big containers, I buy polishing corn cobb from Midway and it comes in large 15 pound buckets that are 3.5 gallons, and it's a good deal both ways - it's good corn cobb and the buckets are great (I wish coffee came in them ;).

I have two filled with 9mm brass, and three filled with .223 brass.

I bought 5 gallon buckets from Home Depot to move the 50BMG brass in... I have about 450 pounds of the stuff :(((

When I croak, there's gonna be one hellova yard sale!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 19:35:54 (ZULU)

"Nothing says fun like a 5 gal bucket of 223 loaded with 50gn V-maxes and a fresh p-dog town."

Nothing says hernia like a 5-gal bucket of loaded 233 ..... good problems!

Pre-Cambrian ...... so 'Lito had a trilobite on a leash, as well as a pterodactyl ?!?

Henry Bowman
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 19:41:01 (ZULU)

The heavy-weight, white 2-gallon work buckets sold in paint stores are good.

John Russell
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 19:42:54 (ZULU)

Undude try this web-site. http://www.scott-duff.com/

Don't know if there is a e-mail address anyplace there but if there is he should be able to get you the "pedigree" on your Garand.

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 20:32:42 (ZULU)

How is walther pronounced? Is the H slilent?

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 22:35:14 (ZULU)

RE: Savage barrels;

Savage still makes all their own barrels in house. They come in as long

(24' I think it was) solid rods roughly 1.200" in diameter or

thereabouts. They are then cut to length based on what's needed for

production, and they're real keen on having as little scrap as possible.

From there they go over to the deep hole drilling machine where they

are rough drilled. After that they go to the finish reamer which drills

them out to the final bore diameter.

From this point they go across the aisle to be rifled, where the button

is pulled through from the breech end. Once rifled, they're cucked up

in a CNC machine that contours, threads and crowns it all in one step

that takes right around 2 minutes if I remember right. They then go to

the straightener who tweeks them on the octopus to make sure their

straight before they're rolled off to be mated up to an action.

Fred's article on our tour will go up in April, and it covers all this

in a lot more detail.

Jim Baker, Site Administrator of Savageshooters

Jim and Fred Moreo took a tour of the Savage factory and will have articles about what they learned on the website.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 22:53:14 (ZULU)

jk,

it's 'walter' with a lithp

Henry Bowman
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 23:33:20 (ZULU)

Ken,

Amen again. While I through out about 20 coffee can, I moved about 6 - five gallon buckets of brass. They are a little heavier when full. Smaller can are better for weight sorting brass, unless you have a really big work area.

Jon the H is not slilent, it's not silent either. English class dismissed!

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 23:43:40 (ZULU)

Metal coffee cans are good, because you can dump chemicals in them if required. 2-gal buckets are a good idea for taking to the hunt/range. 5-gal buckets are a great idea for storage in the loading room.

"Jon the H is not slilent, it's not silent either"

Huh?

Henry Bowman
Thursday, March 16, 2006, at 23:53:14 (ZULU)

Jon,

I'm no English major; but the only way I've ever heard it pronounced is wall-thur. Does that make any sense?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The breezy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 00:18:33 (ZULU)

The silent was a typo,I thought for sure it was walter.I guess that is what you get when you ASS-ume.

Jon Kujawa
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 01:33:06 (ZULU)

I had a Kraut friend, and he pronounced it "Vaul-Tur"... I don't know?

Where the hell is piggy pete when you need him??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 01:33:25 (ZULU)

Wouldn't the correct German pronunciation be Val-tur?

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 01:33:27 (ZULU)

Travis,

How are you lubricating your cases? I do the following: Place a drop of lube on my left forefinger, about the size of a BB. Rub slightly between thumb. Roll case between thumb and forefinger to lube down to about 3/4" below shoulder on a '06. Rub mu finger across the mouth to lube the inside of the neck. The case should be tacky, not drippy. If too much lube is used you'll end up with oil dents. Oil dents are ok, they get ironed out in fire forming. It's better to have a little too much than not enough. I also take out the decaping pin assby and lube the expander ball. If You want I can do a photo step by step for you and e-mail if I need to. Don't feel bad, I was there too, we all were. Don't trim til after you size them, they'll stretch a bit during that phase. Let me Know, you can e-mail me if you like.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 01:59:09 (ZULU)

Cans....

I gave up on the coffee cans a long time ago. Not enough space. I use Tidy Cat litter cans, ya know the 4 gal buckets. I got one full of .45s, 3 full of 9mm, and so on. They stack well too. I got one where I took me a 3" hole saw and cut a hole in the lid as a brass bucket. The my cats shit, the more of these I get. For specialty stuff like 9x57mm, .404, 505, and other odd ball shit, I use Glad ware.

Just for fun!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 02:37:04 (ZULU)

All,

As I read through the posts, I'm sure glad to see I'm not the only one who went to public school. I like how Rush says it "Screwells" I think George Orwells 1984 had it right! The Dems agree. Ingsoc slogan was

War is peace

Freedom is slavery

Ignorance is strength

Semper Fi!

Bad "grammer" Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 02:42:43 (ZULU)

Gents,

Ah, Reloading Country: Plastic containers and coffee cans for storage. Good idea, but what I've found is that I wind up with remnants of multiple lots of brass in multiple containers. Most not worth my time to reload because of the small amount or the fact that all my bolt guns use Lapua brass or a single large lot of one type of brass. Particularly my .223. My recommendation is to recycle/trade it off and stick with one type/lot. Life is too short to screw with multiple loads/multiple cases/powder charges, etc. If you're really in a devilish mood give them to a shooting buddy or match competitor you shoot against.

Undude, seems to me that there is a SA historical web-site that gives dates of manufacture, for SA rifles, based on serial numbers. Of course my mind isn't what it used to be.

Loading techniques: Finished John Feamster's "Black Magic" and he discussed techniqes that work for him and others. Interestingly, many are things I have tried of do in my loading efforts. Most of the exotic techniques work for benchresters, but offer no real advantage for our type of shootering. I've tried most and agree with him. Neck turning, tight chambers, bushing dies, competition dies, brass prep, you name it. Recommend you get a copy of The Precision Shooting Magazine's "Reloaders Guide". More data in there about reloading than you ever wanted to know about.

Neck Sizing: Depends on the brass used. Have noted that most require different sized bushings based on the make up of the brass NOT on the size of the bushing itself. The old subtract .002 from the loaded round diameter rarely works.

Dies: All my accuracy calibers use Redding Competition dies. None better, IMHO. The notable exception is an old set of .223 small base RCBS dies I use. It produces almost ZERO runnout on my accuracy ammo.

Brass prep: I debur/uniform the flash hole interiors, camfer the necks inside and out and load: Produces ammo that shoots better than I can. Full length size my .308 when needed. Have a special die that sets the shoulder back. Other than that I neck size the Lapua Brass.

Expanding case necks after resizing: Throw away the expander plug in your sizing die! My testing has shown the expander ball pulled back through the neck, to expand it, actually distorts the neck and causes significant run out error. Us of a properly sized mandrel alleviates the problem and allows the case neck to expand so it is coencentric with the case body/chamber. How much better is it? My tests show, in .308, that the mandrel method produces .001" or less run out while the traditional expander plug produces run out in the .003" to .005" range.

Thrown powder charges vs. weighed charges show no benefit in weighing the charges vice throwing them.

Surplus Ammo: It's drying up folks. My own understanding is that our own Government and the U.N. have been hard at work to keep the stuff from circulating. Even if not true, the sources are drying up anyway. Most of us don't care about this as our accuracy ammo doesn't come from the surplus chain. However, if you're feeding a full auto, semi-auto, or training a lot that can make a big difference. I try to sit on multiple cases of each caliber "just in case". Call me paranoid, but I know they really ARE out to get me!

The Portugese, Radway Green, South African, and European .308 are about gone.

Cutting Springs: DON'T do it. Walt Wolff recommends against it because spring performance is not just created by the length of the spring, but by the coils and their configuration. For a quick fix maybe. Over the long haul, nada, IMHO.

Sinister, will hit you off line on the SR-25/AR-10 discussion.

Will have to read the overview of the S&B 4x16 scope. Hope I can get it to load OK. The way this is going I may have to take a second job to afford some new goodies.

Hmmm, rain pounding on the roof. Looks like Oregon's real weather is back...with a vengence!

My best to all.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 03:19:31 (ZULU)

Let's clear a few things up:

1) The gun related chemicals I use don't bother the white 2 gallon paint buckets.

2) It's pronounced valtur.

>>Thank you.

You're velcome.

3) I sure hope the .264 Sendero is a POS. If it isn't, I'm going to NEED one.

John Russell
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 03:24:13 (ZULU)

'Lito,

"Rugrat barfing on the sofa." HA! MAN have I been there. Right in the middle of a project. Usually when the Marine-Tex is mixed and perfect on a hot summer night! AGH!!!! Or up to my elbows in the clutch basket on the old '74. (HD). Or...

Almost blew my wine and McDs burger all over the screen!

You're right about catching up; Did the walk-thru on the new house today. We move next weekend. Only gonna take MAYBE three days for the heavy stuff. A week for the rest. Used to it. 20 yrs in the Corps earns you the "Expert" badge for household moves.

speakin' of kids...

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 03:43:16 (ZULU)

Anyway...

kids secured for a few minutes.

I'll play around with some brass and bushings and see what comes of it.

And buy more stuff.

Got my eye on the Wilson case trimmer. Been using my Forster for, well, since about '76. 30 yrs? damn... Tired of resetting for the different case lengths. And that runout gauge they make with the ball bearings. My RCBS has grooves worn in the saddles! Only a few years old.

Walther. a rose by any other name... Ah well. Ain't owned one yet. But the PPK bites me.

I guesss I'm one of the few that has had good luck with an ARMS 18 on a coupla '14 clones. Used Bravo's trick and a few of my own. But I don't use the pieces professionally like Rick's bunch. So my experience means squat. But I did remove it and it is now retired. More fun to have one clone for matches and the carbine for SHTF. Scope would be in the way on either.

Bath time is over...

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 03:59:44 (ZULU)

Pat 2 - And all this time I thought the A-Team phenomenon was when half the team would fall in love, or lust, for the same female on TDY. About the same result. :)

Bad Karma - The only Civil War threat is the one made up in the press. Look at the maps and the reporting and you quickly see the majority of Iraq is relatively calm. A letter from a Spec 4 in Iraq was just published in the Fayetteville Newpaper and he confirms that waht is reported and what is reality is far apart. On the video, it is a video of SF guys shooting Ram on the west coast with 50 Cal Raufoss rounds. Look at it carfully and you can see the ram's horn on the first one and third one. On loading bullets backwards, take care in doing that, it can creat unexpected problems.

WES - Go with the AR10T or the DPMS rig and I think you will be happy. OR wait for the H&K 417 and see how that works out. :) The M14/M21 is a nice nostalgia item but it sucks MOST of the time for shooting. Main reason why it has been dropped by all the teams and we don't use it as a sniper rifle anymore.

'Lito - Aw we'll let him out now, he has been a good kid and minded well before. HA! Hate to disagree on the Remy 5R, but Remy makes our 5R barrels for the M24. I believe, but don't quote me, that Savae does thier own thing with barrels.

CDC or is it Russell, or Russel, or John? :)

Boris - So you like Found On Road Dead, or is it Fix Or Repair Daily, oh yeah backwards it is Driver Returns On Foot. :) Can you tell I really hate Fords? :)

Yote Bait - Get your A** back on here man! Stop just emailing 'Lito. KittyWhacker, you tell him. How can I have a fun conversation if you're not going to be here to keep me in line? Hell I'll even start a conversation about the Shepard and we can discuss other "individuals" if you wish. :)

Sinister - Looks like you found what was left over of the Remys we lateral transferred from Benning that we turned into M24s in 1986. The suckers lied to us when they said they didn't have anymore when I tried to get another 12 from them in 87. :) I can not say enough evil over the SASS contract. :(

Grammar, I don't need no stinkin Grammar!!

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 04:03:44 (ZULU)

The Moslem demographic conspiracy: A scary bed-time story. Click my name.

John Russell
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 04:21:18 (ZULU)

Rugrat barfing......... What my rugrats taught me was to never fire up the progressive loader unless I was locked in the loading room ALONE!!!!!!!!!!! My ex has pictures-unless they're in the few I got custody of, have to remember to look- of my then 2 year old "helping" daddy reload. Had 2 rounds of .45 with no powder in that batch. Fortunately, the slugs lodged in the rifling at a point where the next round wouldn't chamber.

Spring cutting-Wolff has a point where the spring has closed coils at the ends. These "dead" coils are a design function of the spring and cutting them off drastically alters the functionality of the spring. Let me 'splain- a recoil spring for a 1911 has a closed end with "dead" coils that rests on the recoil spring guide and an open end that can get attached to the recoil spring plug (to keep it from lauching ifn you're clumsy). Whacking off the end of an open spring doesn't hurt much. But yeah, once you determine what weight of spring you need, buy store bought.

WR Moore
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 04:26:01 (ZULU)

Sir Wes wrote:

"Cutting Springs: DON'T do it. Walt Wolff recommends against it because spring performance is not just created by the length of the spring, but by the coils and their configuration. For a quick fix maybe. Over the long haul, nada, IMHO."

I was discussing Garand ejector springs only. If someone produces incremental power Garand ejector springs for a non-astronomical price I'll buy some.

Certainly agree on "don't cut springs" for recoil/operating springs for semi autos, especially when multiple incremental weights are available as production items.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 04:26:35 (ZULU)

Rick,

Yeah I figured the press is force feeding the civil war stuff. When I was in Kuwait in 1991 my folks were about having a stroke every night watching cnn. I told them I was fine (once we were in the rear). The way they said cnn put it armageddon had started.

Yes I know that inverting bullets can cause problems, ie shifting bearing surface and such. I still think a bullet puller and a bag of HPs or SPs would be fun on the terrorists.

What are the rules of engagement one exiting the LOD? They were really stupid in 1991.

I hope we eventually hook up with the Israelis and take out Syria and Iran! There would be two less warts on the ass of the world.

Good luck to all on Operation Swarmer! I am interested in how the Iraqi National Army is working out. Are they OK? Do you have to watch your back?

Back to gun stuff...

Anyone try the 175 SMKs in a .300 Win Mag? I am about to develop some loads and would like to know what powders seem to work best. I like Hogdon powders best so far. I am thinking of H450, H4350, H870.

Its a M700 Sendero fluted. So far not really trying it shoots under an inch at 100. I am really focused on the .308 though.

I am still thinking in a way that 1 bullet for many cartidges, the 175 works great in all my .30 calibers. They all have 1/10 twists is why I think.

I have had great luck with the Nosler 150gr BT in the .308. It's a little expensive but hits like a grenade on soft tissue (yotes). It's REALLY nasty in the .300 too. I have steered away from breaks in most cases except fot my .416, it needs it.

Hey CDC,

You like mausers? I have a nice 9x57 made around 1916 with double set triggers.(not for sale) I was wondering because you like a wide variety in arms.

Hey Iraq vets! I haven't ran into any you guys yet, if I do let me buy you a beer!

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 04:51:00 (ZULU)

Master Rick, you missed the acronym. FORD stands for First On Race Day. You can't be talking about Chevrolet, Can Hear Every Valve Rattle On Long, Extended Trips.

On buckets, I've got a good source. Some chemicals I purchase 25Kg at a time. They come in essentially 5 gallon heavy-duty buckets, but with o-ring sealed screw-top lids. Very classy.

The up side is that they're heavy duty and with the o-ring they'll seal nicely (with a bag of desiccant in there) for longer term storage, completely non-biodegradable, and have a folding handle. On the down side, when I move, the neighbors will be calling in the dea 'cause of all the chemical buckets and boxes ;-)

The M25 is an antique. Sure. I'll buy. I'm just not sure what would be as good or better. If it hadn't been you that said it (or Patron Dave for that matter), I'd probably take offense. But you mentioned sniper stick, and I'm perfectly fine with saying it ain't a sniper stick. Heck, the farther I go with this, the more I believe that a good spotters stick should be essentially a scoped rack grade 7.62 with minimum done to it. Accuracy weighs, reliable accuracy weighs more. For 600 and in though, lightweight is accurate enough.

If HK does produce a ratgun, and ever decides to sell to us lowly unwashed civvies, then I'll feel the need to buy one. Speaking of such, BK, you're obviously exagerating. You couldn't have malfed a HK91 with CAVIM ammo, as one of the fellows I work with has explained to me that there is no such thing as a HK that physically can malf. When presented with video evidence, he maintains it's photoshopped.

I've got my plate full this year already, the projects are lined out, and all but one are moving along. A ratgun would probably be slated for '08. And speaking of projects....... JR, how you doin? HA!

Bravo
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 05:36:56 (ZULU)

Rick: It messes Google up.

John Russell
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 06:23:16 (ZULU)

Read the review on the S&B Wunderscope. Also the price. Ah, PeterL-know you fought hard for this scope, but I gotta ask: How much would eliminating the illuminated reticle save? Got the feeling the question will inspire Gaston Glock-like cursing about idiot Amerikanners.

WR Moore
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 06:39:38 (ZULU)

Bravo, that must be the same dude I'm argueing with on SH. Stinking HK junkies think they're shit doesn't stink. Guy loves the 416 and never even shot it, just fondled it at SHOT. USMC bought couple ten thousand of the $35+ HK steel mags and the guts drop out when you shoot a M203 with them unloaded or only a few rds in the mag. They fixed 'em, but it wasn't a cool thing when you're going to Iraq in two monthes. And they're heavy and they don't fit in a lot of the mag pouches. And they still get bent feed lips, just like the aluminum mags do. And I can get 4 factory new aluminum mags for one HK mag.

Stupid arrogant Euro fetishists. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 07:09:00 (ZULU)

J.Russell,

That moslem demographic shit was scary, mainly cause it appears to be workin. She has more faith in the American New Yorker's response than most. I'm doin my part to fight it, found out last nite I'm gonna be a grand-dad at 51! I'll have to consult with a few of you experts on the proper spoiling technique....:)))

Bravo,

email me your sand bucket test criteria. I got a 1911 made in '14 that has a 5 digit ser. # that is loose enuff to pass, I think. BTW where can I get a replacement barrel, Colt???? or just buy one from Brownells??

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 13:13:47 (ZULU)

Ken - We have been shooting them for several months here and have had no problems and all of our operators love them. The guys are putting over a hundred rounds a day on tehm without malfunction. So much for Euro fetishists. My worry are the ones afraid of change. Why would I push a ton of carbon and gases into my bolt when I don't have to? Whjy should I worry about the gas tube length on a short barrel when I don't have to? Why should I worry about the bolt getting all carboned up when I don't have to? Short throw pistons have been used for years and I have never seen a problem with them. Stupid arrogant Marines. :)

Bravo - You can buy the HK416 upper right now. Actaully one I did miss is for the Dodgge family, My Old Pig Ain't Running. As far as tappits, never ever heard them on my GMC truck.

Bad Karma - Trust me, inverting bullets makes a holethat is out lawed by the Conventions and you will get in deep doodoo for using that technique. No don't ask. :) As far as the Iraqi Army, the guys working with their SF are really impressed and they are kicking serious booty. I ahve no info on the regualr guys. But there are reports of them calming areas quite nicely.

Acehigh - Spoiling comes natrually to Grandparents! :)

Hold Hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 13:28:53 (ZULU)

F - ****ing

O - old

R - rebuilt

D - Dodge

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 13:53:56 (ZULU)

Good morning; HK-91, eh, maybe but I'll spent my bucks somewhere else.I looked them over and shot one once, so take this from that. I don't care for the roller lock up or the fluted chamber. The system seems to operate too violently, throws the cases out almost as far as the bullets. I think they use a fluted chamber because it operates so violently that it would rip the rim off the case otherwise. You won't get a lot of reloads out of those cases - the ones you can find that is. My .02 worth..

Joe Sinclair
Blitzburgh, PA, Steeler Nation - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 14:14:48 (ZULU)

Bravo,

A FORD man!! Say it isn't so!!! Found On Reservation Dump or Fix Or Repair Daily etc.......Sorry I couldn't resist(HA)

Pat
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 15:15:43 (ZULU)

Well it’s been 8.5 months since I been to the rifle range due to my little rug rat. The wife has given me permission (after I worked my butt off to get the old house ready for sale and the new house ready to move into). Never been so busy in my life, even in when I was in the Corps....

Need to get the Rice rifle out and have some fun.

Dennis, saw your post, where about are you moving to now? I hope to make it up to one of the Mudville matches mid year, depending on my schedule. Hope to see you there, its’ been a while.

I’m planning to take out my MC Operator (Springfield) to the range tomorrow and blast away. So far I have been pretty happy with it. Haven’t cleaned it yet, and it has about 1500 rounds through it yet without a hiccup.

Bad Karma, sent you an E-Mail awhile back, just wondering where about in the Bay Area you hide is at – don’t need exact location. Its nice to hear that there are lurkers in the general area.

Undude, read your review on the S&B scope. Love to see it one day but damn, the price is up there. Could you provide a comparison between the Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T M3 and the S&B?

Darren

Semper Fi

1985-1990

Darren
Castro Valley, CA, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 15:24:30 (ZULU)

Badd Karma...

I'm using H-4350 in my 300-WM with the 190SMK and it's outstanding. Very clean burning and temperature stable (mv=2950fps). It is a little fast for the 190 (leaves a lot of space it the case), so it would be even better with the 175SMK, or (Ta-ta) the 155 Scenar ;).

H-870 is way too slow, and is as dirty as a french whore in the spring time :((

Now... in exchance for that bit of useless info - what do you think of your Rem 700 Sendero Flutie - reason is that they have recently come out with it in .264 WM, and I have a serious case of the hots for one.

So how do you like it - is the chamber cut well - etc??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 15:33:57 (ZULU)

Catshooter,

Have you ever used the wilson type case trimmer.The style with the case holder.Im using the rcbs style now and you can see plain as day that some of the cases are not getting set up straight.the wilson style just looks like a bit easier to use.

Jon Kujawa
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 15:55:16 (ZULU)

Master Rick, uh, technically I can’t buy the HK416 upper right now. Two reasons…. First off, I ought to say that I just got off the phone with HK Inc (civvies side of HK). They don’t offer the uppers at all, at this point. When I brought up the fact that a guy I know that writes for Janes also said EXACTLY what you said, the HK dude said “it very well may be in the future, but not at this time”.

The 416, as a complete rifle, is only available to me on police letterhead. I’m pursuing that option as soon as I post this. My guess is that I won’t be able to procure one through my local LE distributor (Nevada / Utah / Arizona), but I’ll try. Elsewise, without an order on letterhead directly to HK, I’m sunk.

This mates perfectly with what I was told at SHOT, while talking to the HK rep. His reply was essentially that they wouldn't bother selling to lowlife American civvies until there was enough acceptance here in the states to warrant setting up a plant. That meant military contract, or, at the least large LEO contracts. Then we unwashed heathens could take tablescraps from the big buyers.

This may be a double-edged sword. If it’s something that’s limited to LE, odds are that they’re not ripping that market a new one on pricing. Which would be excellent, as I can’t afford anything heavy now if I wanted to.

On mags, I've personally been trying to find a good, steel one. The Singapore SA-80 mags seem pretty good, but won't accept the Magpul anti-tilt followers. I’ve got standard USGI anti-tilt green followers in them, although they come with identical followers in black. At this point, would you be willing to state that the HK mags are an improvement over the standard GI mags? While I hate the idea of a $45 mag, if you say they work better…..

John, until recently I haven’t had a “standardized” test. I’m working towards something that anyone can do, anywhere in the world. What I’ve done previously wasn’t as scientific as it should have been, although very revealing. I believe one of the problems in repeatability is the sand itself. I was using what was indigenous here, essentially erosion products of the red sandstone. I call it sand, but it’s more of a thick dust. For the standardized method, I’ll use something common, like play sand available at the hardware store.

Patron ‘Lito, you’ve got the final word on the 178 AMX, I got the word on it’s two smaller brothers. I’m referring, of course, to the 155 and 168 30 cal AMAXes. Good to go.

Joe, the HK416 isn’t a roller-locker. It’s essentially a piston driven redesigned M16/M4 upper and buffer assy. Brass from the fluted chambered HKs can be reloaded, it’s just a bit more effort. The chambers of the 416 are not fluted.

Pat, if you'd seen what condition the last Ford I went to overhaul at 120K was in, you'd love 'em too. My '68FE is still plenty streetable.

Bravo
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 16:08:35 (ZULU)

Interesting find: Recently saw a double set trigger for a winchester '94 on EBAY. Sold for $300, I believe. Thought about it, but have never considered using the '94 for precision shooting.(Don't wear BDU's to the mall, either)

'lito,

How friggin' old ARE you? Coffee cans? I bet you have a pantry full of grocery sacks and cool whip bowls, too! LOL! (so do we, I learned from grandma)

Bad Karma,

How am I lubing my cases? Well, I put on some Barry White, light some candles.......LOL, I'm using the RCBS caes lube pad. Is the case lube supposed to be thicker than cold Rotella? Will try trimming AFTER forming. Only have one of each caliber I'm loading for, so I might just get a neck die to use instead of the FL die.

Wes,

What powder thrower are you using? I have the RCBS one, and I get MASSIVE differences in the charges coming out of my thrower. I plan on getting a baffle, and micrometer screw for it, hopefully that'll help, but I'll still weigh everything. (the wife stays away while I'm reloading, so I make it last as long as possible.)

Spud,

Wine and McD's? Is this the definition of a renaissance man?

Anyone have an opinion(stupid question) on herters dies? Specifically the universal neck sizer die. Never had any good luck withanything that was supposed to be universal, other than a crescent wrench.

What's everyone's fav. coyote bullet in .30 cal, and what's the favorite .30 cal for deer?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 16:18:22 (ZULU)

Just saw a good one, in line w/"Mall ninja", ever hear of a "chairborne ranger"? I think I've met a few of them online, LOL>

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., Trapped under a fat woman - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 16:25:53 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

Yup - I have a Wilson and a bunch of dies. It's well made and it's a pain in the ass! And for revolver cases like the .357/38, you will do about 20 an hour (OK, maybe 40 to 60!!)

I threw (yes Martha... T-H-R-E-W) three RCBS trimmers, 2 manual, and one electric, in the dumpster two weeks ago - total garbage, so that's where they belonged! They felt at home - it was a GOOD THING :))

I didn't know anyone that I hated enough to sell them to!!

Travis...

My favorite 30 cal Coyote bullet has JUST become the 178 A-Max, from a 300 WM at 2950 !! :))

For big game, I go to the butcher's ;)

>"and cool whip bowls"<... Howdja know?? ;))

>"'lito,

How friggin' old ARE you?"<

I'd tell you, but then I'd have ta kill you ;)))

George (Washington) asked me that, and was almost not our first president!! (I cut him some slack, cuz of that Trenton thing ;)

'lito

(So many guns, so little money :(((

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 16:43:25 (ZULU)

"Stupid arrogant Euro fetishists." Now THAT's color commentary!

Ford, GM, Dodge .... that's right up there with Glops vs. HK vs. 1911 .......... the real answer is ...... Nissan Titan!

Thank you, and goodnight! ..... running for cover ..... ;8-p

Henry Bowman
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 17:02:36 (ZULU)

Catman,

My nephew has a 25-06 in the fluted SS sendero and my soninlaw has one in a 308. Both are good shooting rifles. The 308 is "Picky" about brass that it likes but other than that it shoots well. We have shot it out to 850yds getting some nice groups.

I was only around the 25-06 one weekend doing some long range shooting and we shot it out to 600yds and it held its own with our tactical rifles. I was somewhat surprised how well it did shoot. I would not be affraid to buy one. You will love the 6.5 but it will be a barrel burner. If you don't get it hot it should last you for quite awhile.

Pat
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 17:15:11 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)...

Coming from you, that's a vote of confidence - I thunk you have shot a riffle or two in your life.

I had a 25-06, and though it was accurate enough, I was never fond of it and let it go. I had an Ackley Roberts that I loved!

The .264 will be loaded to around 48,000 to 50,000 (way under factory), and a cart like that doesn't sit on sand bags at the range all day, so it will last a lifetime... do you know where I can find some money for it ;))))

I'll look into it some more, and probably get one in the summer. But with my luck with Remingtons, I'll get the dog of the whole production lot :((

I just got off the phone with Rem up in Illion, and they said that they would "Expedite" the replacement of my XR-100... but I ain't gonna turn blue over it :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 17:30:45 (ZULU)

Last week I tossed a Lyman trimmer in the trash. I use a Wilson. It is okay but slow.

Has anybody used the Forster with a rechargable drill?

The .300 WM I shot at the 1K match is an older Sendero I bought used. The guy bought it, held it like it was his .22, opened an impressive red crescent on his forehead, then sold it to me cheap-cheap. Two points away from winning the thing surprised the other shooters. The guy who won was using 6BR/Stolle/Krieger/MacMillian/Loopy 24X and Wichita rests. I used a Harris bipod and a beanie-baby Mike Miller gave me.

The wind came up late, which helped me quite a bit. By string three, the .300 had me losing focus on my follow-through. That helped him. His rig was obviously more accurate, and I'm sure that I can't hold any closer than he could. Under those conditions, my wind strategy worked better.

Catblaster knows more about rifles that I ever will, but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot this rig for keeps.

FWIW.

JohnRussell
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 17:54:00 (ZULU)

"..beanie-baby Mike Miller gave me."

A new application for beanie-baby's!! Other than being a target, that is.

Henry Bowman
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 18:00:20 (ZULU)

Happy Saint Patrick's day to all !!!

Regards

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 18:11:59 (ZULU)

Hey Hombre'... you put a leettle hole in meee ;))

I have used the Forster with a drill... I used a plug-in 1/4" drill. I had to outside neck turn, and trim 1,100 cases for a tight neck 6mmBR, and there was no way I could do it by hand.

It worked GREAT!!

The Forster is my favorite trimmer - I have three - had them for a looooong time and they are like new and work fine!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 18:38:36 (ZULU)

Marines Fight With "Six-Packs." Check out this weapon.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/03/marines_fight_w.html

HDR
OK, - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 19:46:59 (ZULU)

YOU guys suck, and you can't shoot!

Now that you hate me, feel free to send the stuff you've been throwing away to..........;0P

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., stuck under a fat woman - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 19:59:46 (ZULU)

Kittyblaster: "I don't have a belly ache like thees since I'm a leetle boy."

My little son thinks that part is almost as funny as the rabbit scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. He does a pretty fair imitation of the guy behind the rock.

Travis Morgan: The Lyman trimmer isn't worth the postage it would take to send it.

Henry Bowman: The "beanie-baby" is a cordura sack filled with the little plastic beads used to stuff children's toys. Ranger Rick's shooting glove trick works better for you young whipper-snappers, but my left hand flops around like a speared carp. The glove doesn't work for me any more. Getting old beats the alternative, but not by much.

For Christmas my young daughter got a Harris bipod to go with her Winnie 52. She says that she is going to start taking a little teddy bear of similar construction to the range. She'll hit, too.

JohnRussell
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 20:48:57 (ZULU)

Darren - There is no comaprison, the glass is crisper, clearer and the turret adjustments are crisp and positive. The quality is great and right now the LR by Leupold is now using its version of mil lines that are hard to see in a setting other than daylight on a flat range.

Bravo - Not sure what is going on because I had a rep for HK tell me different. Believe that I could have bought one that day, though I may have been wrong and misunderstood him.

Hold Hard Guys!! and stay safe!!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 21:24:58 (ZULU)

You misunderstand me Rick, my problem isn't with folks who actually use the HK and like it, that's just a difference of opinion. My problem is with those asshats who have never actually used one, who claim that it the greatest thing since sliced bread just because it's German/Japanese/etc/etc. Freaking internet commandoes parroting what they've been told. I see it all the time with these Euro fetishists, especially as I tow their Mercedes/Audi/VW into the shop:)

I'm all about going to a piston system, part of my master plan to have every riflemen with a suppressor, but I feel the Leitner-Wise is a better fit for the .mil, in particular because you don't have to shitcan almost every part in the upper receiver in favor of the HK stuff, which is directly lifted from their G36. We just bought all new rifles, M16A4's, and it'd been completely irresponsible to throw the expensive bits away, along with your entire stock of spare parts.

That'd be FAR FAR more expensive than going to a new caliber and we already went over that one;)

BTW, my M16A4 performed flawlessly in Iraq. None of my Marines had a stoppage either. 40+ guys, in some filthy shit, burning 1000's of rds. So the M16's current bad rap might have something to do with the old A2's, which are 20 years old. Same thing that killed the 1911, eh? S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Friday, March 17, 2006, at 21:48:38 (ZULU)

re: case trimmers

Running a Lyman w/power drive option and a cordless drill. Not very exciting, guess I'll have to take a closer look at the Forster like 'Lito is using. Probably the biggest bottleneck {grin} in brass prep workflow.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, March 17, 2006, at 22:55:47 (ZULU)

Cat Shooter,

I do really like the sendero. This one in particular. The chamber is cut just fine however, the throat is long like on most Remngtons, I believe for round nose bullets. I did have a sendero in 7mm STW that was a piece of shit. I bought it from adistributor back east about 13 years ago. It was originally chambered for 7mm Rem Mag and was recut. The chamber was so bad that on a full length resise the case ended up with 2 belts, yes..2 fucking belts. I was so dismayed I kept some of the brass to remind me to be cautios when it comes to Remington stuff. Honestly though I think it was the Q.C. guys who let it slip past them. I do love the M700 line.

Back to my .300, The only modification I made to it was to drop in a Timmney trigger. It's set to about 2.5 pounds and feels like you're breaking a glass rod. Shoots fine. The cases are easy to full length resize too. I just need to get a decent scope for it. I have a Burris 18x on it rught now to develop loads. I am thinking of a Tasco SS 10x42mm. No rush though.

I will say this, a 150gr A.P. bullet out of a .300 does some impressive stuff. On paper the velocity gained is only about 600-700f/s but the energy is squared.

Hmm .264 Mag eh? Nice bullet! Great ballistics too. I think metelurgy has come far enough to reduce throat erosion to make it a fun number. If you get the .264 let me know how it shoots! I have been musing about one for a while now.

Today is my wife's birthday. Spent the day with her her way...Man, what a wonderful woman she is. What she sees in me I'll never know. I feel lucky, so many men look for the perfect woman and only find divorce. Well, gona go spoil her some more.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 01:31:53 (ZULU)

Ken,

Can you let me/us know about the hard chargers over there getting Navy Crosses and such, I love reading those citations. Audie Murphy was a real killer elite. I think we/I need to let my kids take the citations to school for show and tell. I think the word "hero" is thrown around so much it has lost a lot of its meaning, especially in the media.

Another liberal story.....

My wifes boss(hippy) said "Oh you we in Desert Storm"? "You're a war hero". I said hey, you libs are so parched for heros you wouln't know one if he pissed in your face! If you want to meet some REAL hero, a lot of REAL heros got to any National Cemetary and you will be in amongst the finest!

I hate these damn patronizing a** wipes! the "I support the troops but not the war". types. I tell them to go donate blood or send a stack of phone cards and put your word to action. All I get is a angry hippy frothing at the mouth.

Hey the beer offer is still good guys!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 01:42:26 (ZULU)

First F-Class match of the year at Butner this weekend. Hope that I can get back to some type of consistancy this year. Last year was very inconsistant, good one weekend, yucky the next, etc.

Get your blood pressure checked regularly.........nuff said :(

Time for bed, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 02:00:28 (ZULU)

Travis,

I think th epad is putting too light a film of lube. Try doing it by hand. One think I do if I cant tumble by brass is ti get a nylon .30 caliber brush and clean the inside of the necks. Sizing cases is just as much science as it is art. I've been using the same press since I was 12. I can feel when something isn't right. You will to once you get the hang of it.

Joe,

Fluted chambers and the roller lock system. The flutes are there to kee a over heated chamber from cooking off the next round when it's way too hot. As far as ripping of rimms? Well I tried an experiment by removing the extractor. It cycled flawlessly! I agree the rifle is too harsh on cases for reloading but I have reloaded some up to 8 times! Another case of personal preference. Ya know boldes vs. brunettes.

I am curious what the next big thing will be though. The caseless thing really didn't take off. Weapons can be as advanced as they can be made but the ammo is still the same. Self contained metallic cartidge. Well hell, if it works don't fix it, right?

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 02:14:11 (ZULU)

"I think th epad is putting too light a film of lube. Try doing it by hand."

So, reloading includes a hand-job with lube? ;8-o

Henry Bowman
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 02:36:33 (ZULU)

re: H&K's and brass

I read that there was an optional case buffer for the H&K 91/93 series rifles that reduced the battering the fired brass was subjected to. That's what I would try to get if I was reloading H&K'ed brass.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 03:14:11 (ZULU)

Henry,

Get your mind outa da gutter! LOL!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 03:17:56 (ZULU)

Rod,

Yes, they do make a buffer. I had one and it lasted about 2 mags and flew apart. I get FNM brass pretty cheap and fire and forget. It's pretty consistant and I get great results. I get them at the annual swap meet at the gun club.

I bought some Winchester brass. After prep they all weighed in at 155grs. All within .5gr I was impressed.

As far as brass goes I have a set of 50 that have been reloaded over 28 times. I neck size them and about every 10th loading I anneal them. When I trim them I get almost no metal off of them just a bright ring appearance. These are Federal cases. I don't push the envelope with pressure. This helps extend the life of your brass too.

Semi Auto really stretch and stress brass, no matter what type of rifle you use.

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 03:27:54 (ZULU)

re: brass lubrication for resizing

I use the RCBS Case Slick spray lube and a carbide expander ball in Redding dies.

The carbide ball avoids requirement to lube inside the case necks, and avoids most of the ugliness associated with conventional expander balls (like excessive brass stretching).

I use a case lube rack to ensure even distribution with the spray lube. Sinclair International and others sell plastic (HDPE) and anodized aluminum lube racks.

I choose to use an expander ball rather than bushing dies because I use brass from different makers and don't want to deal with all the different diameter bushings that would require.

(I sort brass into headstamp lots for usage to ensure consistency).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 03:29:29 (ZULU)

Renaissance Man? What the hell is that? I do a big glass o' vino with dinner every night. Don't matter what dinner is. ;)

Darren I keep meanin' to get up there, but kids and such... Just moving a little farther North in Merced. Bigger house.

I like my Forster, too. Like I said, about 30 yrs old. Thinkin' hard on the Wilson, even if it's slower. Tired of resetting for different calibers. But I'm keepin' the Forster.

I have a nice little DeWalt rechargeable drill/driver that I use with the Forster. Unscrew the handle, "screw" on a piece of 3/8" oil line about an inchandahalf long, have a hex bolt stuck in the end o' that. Socket on a flex shaft in the DeWalt. The socket stays assembled to the flexshaft, the bolt/hose stays on the cutter shaft. Works good.

Bought a brand new HK91 in the late 70s. Put 80 rnds. thru it, then had to fix (every damned weekend)the old Lowrider I was runnin' back and forth to work. Had to sell the HK. Stupid friggin' move. Shoulda started takin' a bus...

Spud.

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 03:32:23 (ZULU)

Darren,

I guess I forgot- there's a difference between a renaissance man and a wino. LOL

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks, Trapped under a fat woman - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 03:36:21 (ZULU)

That lube that Sinclair sells in the little can sure is nice. Put it on with the pinkies. Wipe it off with a paper towel. Or hit the cases with a little carb cleaner and roll in a coupla paer towels. The graphite neck lube is nice too. Brush out the necks with a used bore brush.

Everybody has their own thing.

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 03:37:24 (ZULU)

Travis,

I'm DENNIS the wino. ;)

Darren's the new daddy. BTW, a belated congratulations to you and the wife, Darren.

Semper-fi.

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 03:39:52 (ZULU)

re: case trimmers

Ok, I've had a look at the Forster

http://www.forsterproducts.com/Pages/class_trimmers.htm

It's not clear to me that the Forster is *that* much different than the Lyman.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/caseprep.htm

Please enlighten me...

I see that Lyman makes a carbide cutter head option, maybe that's what I need rather than the "standard" steel cutter head.

Item #7822204

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 04:00:32 (ZULU)

Carbide blade for the Gracey trimmer:

http://www.bjonessights.com/CARBIDE.html

$US25

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 04:47:01 (ZULU)

You can toss clean brass in a clean 2-gallon paint bucket, spray it with a little Dillon or RCBS lube, mix the brass, spray, mix, etc a few times. Then let the solvent evaporate. You can lube a whole bucket of brass with very little effort.

Question: Dillon spray lube lists only lanolin and alcohol as ingredients. Couldn't someone just whip up a bucket of the stuff for cheap?

Imperial case wax works for wiping on with the fingers but it doesn't get the insides of the necks. A carbide expander is one answer. There are others. You guys know this stuff, so it's not worth pursuing.

Another question: Motor mica brushed in the neck has never worked well for me. What am I doing wrong?

Adjusting the Lyman trimmer precisely is not nearly as easy as it is with the Wilson and the Lyman doesn't want to hold adjustment. The shaft was hardened to the point that cranking down the set screw hard enough would have stripped it. Something else (lead bird shot under the set screw?) would have worked, but using the Wilson was easier. Its adjustment holds. The Lyman just took up room for about fifteen years until I needed the space. I remember the Forster I had when I was a kid working much better.

If someone else likes the Lyman, that's just lovely. I'm not attacking anyone's gear nor am I trying to make converts.

JohnRussell
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 06:01:46 (ZULU)

Dennis...

>" Thinkin' hard on the Wilson, even if it's slower. Tired of resetting for different calibers."<

You still have to reset for different calibres with the Wilson... there's a big screw (with a COURSE thread) that controls the depth of cut - it ain't easy to get it right... a lot of T&E :((

The Forster has that little fine threaded screw that is a joy to adjust - easy to make a 1 thou change.

Rod...

>"It's not clear to me that the Forster is *that* much different than the Lyman."<

It's called "Quality" son ;). I have three Fosters for over 30 uears, and I've never had one sharpened - they are smooth and precision.

The crank handle is a "real" handle, not a stamping like the Lyman, and longer for more leverage.

I did buy a Lyman 50-BMG trimmer a few years back - the handle is tiny with no leverage. It was no problem, cuz I stripped it for pieces parts to make a rig to trim 50BMG in a drill press - just kept the cutting shaft, and threw the rest away.

If you look at them side by side, there is NO contest, the Forster beats the Lyman.

I hate working with cheesy tools, especially when there is little difference in price

I have not used the Hornady trimmer- Hornady is making very good tools. Hornady has a 50 cal press based on the RCBS (I they buy the frames from RCBS), and they modify it a LOT, make it 3 times better, and sell it for LESS!!! Duh??

I gots a lot of Hornady stuff and have never been disappointed - and don't get me started on their powder measure "auto attachment". It's the silliest looking thing you will ever see... it gives Rube Goldberg a wet dream... and it works GREAT!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 07:10:04 (ZULU)

Henry: Had a Nissan Tincan (titan?) miss a breaking opportunity in traffic. Nailed the back of my F250 pretty durn good (I thought we had problems)---nudged me enough to insert the trunk contents into the back seat of the corolla in front of me. Tincan's insurance paid the bill; for me I got a new ball hitch and front lisence plate bracket, the dude in front got a major ass-end rebuild, and tincan drivin' cell phone talker got a whole new truck to go with his new premiums. The cops saw the damage to the tincan and the toyo and figured I was just a witness on arrival. They were stunned that I was the middle man of this mayhem. Ford tough. I like what I like---first, it has to work. Then, it has to always work. Superduties meet my needs betterer than the others. I too hate working with cheesy tools, Lito-san! But that is trucks--cars be different. The hated Dodge guys might be on to sumptin' with the retro-new Challenger; and the retro Camaro is equally bad-ass. Both say "midlife crisis" in ways that may prove irresistable. Heheh.

Army Speak:

Rangers in our own mind: Chairborne; Powerpoint Ranger; stillborne ranger; and of course the dreaded "spotlight ranger..."

Pathfinder derivatives: Badgefinder, patchdfinder, Tabfinder. Denotes school quals with out serving in the units; status climbers. Goes along with fivejumpchumps.

Baddddd Karma: You could get me on a rant. Maybe you did, as i watched some Rep from Oregon spout off on a bill to 'quickly withdraw' forces from Iraq. This tool has no clue as to how the opposition sees actions like that. It's as if his free speech is magically limited to the shores of CONUS in his fantasy world. "No I am not supporting the enemy..."---my Irish ass, sir---you most certainly are. And yessirreee; that is exactly "Un-American" activity in a time of war....cut and run is aid and comfort to our enemy. And to all those who don't support the war: No shit sherlock! So do not join the volunteer services; and shut the hell up. To actively oppose and undermine is beyond "not supporting"---the one is passive and is OK by me. Active measures to subvert our efforts on the other hand are treasonous in my eyes.

I feel very, very strongly about this topic. 60 years ago no one would have thought twice on capital crimes' trials for some of our present "prominent" liberals. Not all change is good, IMHO.

Follow this: Bad guys see press make hay about 2xxx casualties. then see polls showing dwindling support, then hear "leaders" muttering about "peace with honor" crapola all over again. What is the logical course of action for Mr. Bad Guy? Let's say, militarily, he is thin on resources. He'd be cautious in normal times. But now, he is likely to see an expenditure of his forces (wastefully, suicidally) as a way to fight on this media/ political front of the war. He tosses his forces recklessly into ours in an effort to step up some killing. In other words---these damned dems give life to the bad guys, aid recruitment, and generally alter how they may fight a given engagement. I prefer fighting a dude who wants to live, ya know? He can feel beaten long before I maneuver to kill him. A guy hell bent on the other hand is a pain in the ass.

When kicking someone's ass it is very important to make him know he is beat, will be beat, and won't stop getting beat. Others watching from the sidelines will not want to jump into that grinder. But to give them a message from CONUS "hey we want to quit..." is to put those fence-sitters in the field against us--- In spite of the ass whippin' we administered to his friends the day before. That means more of my friends will die. To me it is as simple as "you talk surrender and more of my boys die." Free speech? Yeah...no problemo. Free to enjoin the enemy against me. That makes you the enemy. The democratic party: Al Qeada's Ministry of Propaganda. That too is free speech, gents. With it comes choice and responsibility. That part is often overlooked by these numbnutz...so, the choice is to speak out against all that is war etc, etc. The responsibility is that this helps the enemies of our nation by creating a gap to be exploited AND US soldiers pay this price. They talk, my troopies die. I see it no other way.

I burn red hot over this one...best to just stop right here...

Boris
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 08:47:41 (ZULU)

A friend just commented: "If we keep taking every firefight to court, we will gut ourselves..."

I had a LTC ask me, "How am I supposed to know if your weapon is unloaded..." To which I replied "That's the problem there sir--you are supposed to treat ALL weapons as if they are loaded..." You see, I had cleared it at the gate. Cleared it again at the messhall. Did not see the need to do so yet again 15 minutes later at the work area...excessive playing with a weapon is against my grain; the mag well is and was empty to begin with. In the 'stan, they just carry amber, and no one has issues. The guys who establish "safety" programs on this side of the gulf made up what they thought were super safe procedures. It never occured to them to see what the NRA does along these lines. The big guy in 'stan did look to the NRA basic rules, however, and the NDs reflect. Far less there than here. Downside: The answer here is to crush the peckers of all violators who shoot the barrels, except O5 and above of course. Seems to me if you take tired, hot hungry troops, and make a hundred "pull the trigger" ten times a day, shit happens. Hell, I could see it happening to me at times (which makes me not do it). Some days I just wanna roll the selector over to third gear and dump a 30-rounder into the barrel the fast way. Afterwards, be quoted as saying, "there...that cleared the bastard..."

I'm in a bad mood...

It's Monday in the middle east (THUR/ FRI is weekend for the local people)

Boris
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 11:08:18 (ZULU)

Boris: "This tool has no clue as to how the opposition sees actions like that."

He probably would, if he thought about it, but he doesn't care. The downside of losing this war is so remote to those people that it has no reality to them. They think of this very young country the way the mob thought of Rome. It was eternal. Then the Visigoths came.

"To me it is as simple as "you talk surrender and more of my boys die.""

You see the way You (We) are portrayed in the Old Media: Uneducated rednecks who joined the military out of naivete, jingoism, animal meanness, boredom and a lack of more meaningful opportunities. I read an article in the NYT about an Ivy League Wall Streeter who (GOD BLESS HIM!!!) joined the Marines and was KIA. The Times treated that as a tragedy of an entirely different order than a lesser getting hit. You are Red State Bush supporters and the Left's natural enemies. They DON'T CARE if you and your guys die. In fact, I was on a site with a bunch of Ivy lawyers and law professors who OPENLY WISHED FOR LARGE SCALE MARINE CASUALTIES! True story. Hit me offline and I'll direct you to the site and name the names. My side's comments became direct. Yes sir. Very direct.

"Active measures to subvert our efforts on the other hand are treasonous in my eyes...Free to enjoin the enemy against me. That makes you the enemy."

Yes it does. It does indeed. That is a point well worth mulling over.

Excellent posts.

JohnRussell
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 14:42:53 (ZULU)

Patron Boris said about trucks "first, it has to work". Yeah. I've got a pair of keychain doodads on my ring. One is Glock, the other is Ford. YUP! Why those two? 'Cause I've never found an M14 bobble ;-)

That having been said, if I had REALLY deep pockets, the Hemi is THE thing to hotrod. And while I'm on this rant...... A guy I know that works for Rauche and I were talking not long after the 302/5L block was discontinued, which wasn't long after the big block (429/460) went away. His take was "yeah, but you're an antique, you shoot antiques, you drive antiques, and that's just you. When we get rid of this 4.6, your boy will be screaming just like you are now". Could be! Change for a benefit is a great thing. Change for the idea of change isn't. Oh, and the benefit has to be TO ME.

But I think GM was just as intelligent when they axed the 350.

One of my good friends, a slick pilot, built up an aluminum block (either Olds or Buick, can't recall at the moment), and did really well at ameteur racing (when all 8 pistons remained attached, when they didn't he had "a big oil leak" LOL!). I'd tease him about the lack of Ford powerplant, and he'd reply that he had PLENTY of Ford powerplant. Race a GM, trailer it, and pull it home with a Ford. HA! But that was back when the diesel wars were just heating up.

Case lube: I like the Hornady one-shot stuff, and a loading block. I put 25 rounds in a 50 round block, hose, and load. It WILL NOT kill primers, tested that myself.

Oh, and Patron Boris, back when you let out the secret of the boots, I was content with my deserts (and not thinking too hard to write your recomendo down). Hesitantly, I'm now about ready to call 'em dead. I wonder what the true mileage is? HA! Since I'm gonna be replacing, might as well upgrade. What brand / style is it you said were top flight? Hope they come in size stubby super wide.....

Trimmers: I've used the Forster forever. My old Rhodesian mentor turned me on to that one when I first started loading, still works great, but it's S-L-O-W. The next trimmer I purchase will be a Giraud. Just don't know when. I'm a different kind of guy though, I do all my loading in late fall to spring, so I can shoot the entire year without pulling the lever. My definition of "demoralization": sitting down with a couple of full 5 gallon buckets of 7.62 NATO brass, a Forster, and an empty 5 gallon bucket for the trimmed ones.

Bravo
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 15:54:32 (ZULU)

Bravo,

"The next trimmer I purchase will be a Giraud. Just don't know when."

The sooner the better. You're gonna like it. A lot.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 19:06:56 (ZULU)

Guys, damn so much to read in a few days, it will take me at least 2 night shifts to catch up.

back to the zastava remington 798.

it looked like some one had ploughed the field with it, IMHO remington is making a step back 50 years,

savage however are heading in the right direction.

say, whats the best complete set for some one starting out re-loading?

Hornady??

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 20:19:22 (ZULU)

Another Moslem article, “ISLAM'S MARCH AGAINST THE WEST.” http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=ea29bfa6889df305e1f793839cf74c22&threadid=163198

HDR
OK, - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 21:06:38 (ZULU)

Another thing that impressed the heck out of me was the new Marlin 1895MXLR. stainless and laminated stock, coupled with the hornady XLR ammo, this will be my pig rifle of the future.

which is a shame as the 9.3RSM is coming along oh so well,

Pete

Peter Lincoln
>>D - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 21:31:16 (ZULU)

re: Giraud power case trimmer

http://www.giraudtool.com/prod02.htm

$US365 complete for a specific cartridge. Trims,inside and outside chambers in one operation. Apparently indexes off the shoulder of the resized case.

Shipping weight is 17 lbs.

Usage is like an electric pencil sharpener.

Alternate cartridge conversion kits available.

Unit contains 1/8 HP motor using a cogged belt to drive the cutter unit.

From the description, there is a lot to like.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 22:09:17 (ZULU)

Ah...

These fickled love afairs with riffles.

My crush on the Sendero is over - spent the morning running numbers and there is only one bullet that will shoot flater than the .300 WM that I already have, and if the Sendero doesn't like that bullet, I'm f****ed for $1200+ without glass.

Off to other heart stealers ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 22:11:31 (ZULU)

Borris,

My turn to rant....I like what Conan said in the Barbarian.His master asks "Conan! What is good in life"? Conan replies "Crush oyur enemies! Drive them before you and hear the lamentaion of thier women! That is good in life"! You damn right! I believe this....

The only rule in war is to win, period! I don't care if you have to wipe out an enitre generation of your enemies people to do it. Free speach is one thing, but to deliberatly give aid and comfort to the enemy is treason! If it were me, and I am not there. I would find a way to shoot any reporter who met with the enemy and did not disclose thier where abouts. Along with them Al Arabia, Al Jazeera would be a prime target as well.

When this war is concluded (total unadulterated victory)come home and dismiss all those piss ant politicians who are making things worse! Don't those assholes realize that if the Al Quada and the Taliban had their way all the liberals would be put to death first! There is nothing I would like to see more than a major deportation of the liberals to the Mid east. Let them try and reason with the unreasonable.

We are fighting a mind set that even the Japanese didn't even have. At least the Japs lived by a code that we understood. Bashido. These are murderous, EVIL, and most of all cowardly bitch pig eater who fornicate with their own offspring! AHHH! As a Marine I know that the most important things in life are more than exit poll or what the commie media spews on the air. I believe in Honor, loyalty, discipline!

These conceps are as alien to the left as pizza on Mars! Gents we not only have a real problem with the islmo-fascists, but the new "compassionate-communists" want to give the whole show away to the rest of the world so we all can live in harmonious poverty together. I think they want a new attack and blame it on all religion in order to outlaw all religion and to take our guns away. I feel strongly that the second amandment is our FIRST line of defense. I don't ever want to see a situation like in New Orleans where the cops are taking peoples guns aways at gun point! The left is very dangerous. I was a deputy for three years in the south. Politics run the show not decency or a will to better society. Nuf said.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma

Bad Karma
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 22:16:12 (ZULU)

Fluffyblaster: Do you mean that the .264 mag won't throw them any straighter the .300win/190 SMK you described earlier? If not, what load are you talking about?

John Milius stole the "Crush your enemies" line from Ghengis Khan.

One translation of the actual quote is, "Man's highest joy is victory: to conquer his enemies; to pursue them; to deprive them of their possessions; to make their beloved weep; to ride on their horses; and to embrace their wives and daughters."

Those goals reflect an Eastern mindset. I'm more of a traditional English "Boil their heads in saltwater, dip them in hot tar and put them on pikes" kind of guy.

Call it compassionate Conservatism.

JohnRussell
Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 22:35:02 (ZULU)

J-Russell...

The 300WM 178 A-Max and the .264 140 A-Max track within inches of each other to 1000yds - the 264 w/95gr V-Max is string taught, but if the riffle doesn't like the 95 V-Max, I'm S.O.L.!

I'll stay with the 300WM.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 22:59:06 (ZULU)

Oh, and Patron Boris, while you're handing out advice......

The gloves came in. They had two different sizing techniques, which gave me results of small and medium, so I ordered one of each. Took 'em forever to get here.

The medium fits my hand well, and is great in the fingers as circumference goes, except they're too long for my fingers. The smalls are tight on my hands, to the point that it messes with the muscle straight behind my little finger after a while. They're tight on fingers as far as circumference, but they're just almost (barely long) perfect on length.

As far as tactile sense, they're everything you said, and impressive.

Being nomex and kevlar, I don't know if they'll shrink or strech, or which to work with. Any advice would be appreciat