March 2001

Of course, if your KZ is some open spot in a trail in the boonies, you got a whole different problem. Thats where the laser, map, or triangulation methods let you get a range card setup. Now when the target appears, the spotter just points him out with the range and wind call.

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it.

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 00:11:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

Using that information, let us take this scenario from start to finish.

I have sneaky peted to my FFP which is a a tree line overlooking the Elephant Valley. I am positioned in the edge of a large expanse of rice patties with an elevated dike "about" 700 yards away beyond that another 1000 yards or so of rice patties.

First question: What do I mil to know that the dike is about 700 yards away?

I spot a company sized element of VC approaching the dike about 2000 yards away. They are coming on slowly without a care in the world.

Question two: When do I start milling?

Question three: What do I mil?

Question four: If they are moving, how do I adjust for the movement and assure a first shot kill?
 
 
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 00:54:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.118.227)

The L42 is a fine British vintage weapon, which sported a x3 scope (designed for a Bren gun, not sniping incidentally) It has a beautiful feel to the bolt operation (which I still believe is better than that of the L96) However the L96 came with a x6 scope only because the MOD specified the 'New rifle' had to match the L42's performance.
This has left us Brits with a poor german post type x6 scope for years. Only now after experience in Bosnia and Kosovo have the MOD decided to upgrade to a x3 - 12 variable telescopic sight (complete with mil dot reticule, Parallax adaptor and internal range stadia)
A friend of mine from 'Hereford' converted his L42 to take a x10 scope with Mil dots. The main problem he found was finding someone to adapt the rings to the screw on type used on the L42 (however I don't for-see that as a problem in the USA)
The weapon work a treat to the normal distances designed for the L42, 600m (540yds)but remember the L42 was merely a No 4(T) converted to 7.62mm and hence not a precision weapon such as the Accuracy International weapons.
If you want to use the weapon to its full I would suggest x10 at least and not the x6, Mil dots are fine on a variable scope and should not cause any worries.
When we were taught on the L42 back in 1984 we used to put rubber eye peices around the scope to prevent 'Sniper eye' during stressful times when fatigue and pressure of 'Ops' give you more to worry about than recoil.
We also used to tape a small F/Feild dressing to the upper sling swivel, this was grasped during the use of the Hawkins position, the favoured sniper position at the time (although this was actually designed for 'range sniping' and on Ops it is a lucky man who gets to use this position with any frequency. The fluid battle feild and change of terrain often mean the sniper needs to be higher, hence the old improvised tripod & bean bag combination is a God send!
Slightly of track but hopefully of interest and may help you in making your choice?

All the best
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:08:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

Sorry to butt in But if you think the Coy sized element is 2000m away and you wish to hit them at 700m get your Map out and confirm the distances. Map reading is a core Sniper skill and its not just for making your way up country!

Sorry to be cynical, but I couldn't help myself, debate is Good!
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@vrigin.net>
England - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:23:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

I hate all this arguing can we just forgive ignorance and move on? All the argueing makes it hard to communicate meaningful info, for this reason I apologize to who ever for calling them a fool.
 

But as far as the red box I am pretty sure it is winchesters.
And my stating that marlin is realated to winchester was a mistake on my part it only cunfused all people that don't agree.

Who said anything about a Stealth? MY WORDS:

"What fool doesn't know what kind of rifle comes in a RED box, besides MARLINS (same
company anyway)???"

The word I used was BESIDES marlins, jacka55, this is why I have explained that apparently I have the silly notion that winchester bought out Marlin. I hope someone will agree it seemes logical as they are the only makes of popular lever actions.

Now that I am done seeing who said what lets try and behave and share information insted of twisting each others words back and forth OK!
 
 

Respectfully,
Will
Big Will <http://www.madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:27:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.17)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:40:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

ERK?! Shoot you down? Nada. I was OFFERING what little knowledge I have to you and anyone else that wants it.
 
 

"Didn't mean to cunfuse anyone by saying 223/5.56 just a habit."

Most of us gas gunners use the terms interchangeably. There's nothing wrong with that. Again, I am passing on what I have learned from others. It is referred to as sharing.
 
 

"I seem to have the foolish idea that .223s don't eat barrels out like Magnums do they have a BIG difference in case capacity. For example 300winmag : it takes 61 gr. of imr4895 to push a 180gr SMK only 2822fps
223: takes only 24.5gr. of the same powder to push a 69 gr. SMK 2710fps

I was mearly suggesting that the lesser powder capacity of the 223 would permit longer barrel life in any weapon chambered for that round. "

I can't speak to a 7mm Mag or 300WM since I don't shoot them. All I said was that a milspec .223/5.56 cartridge runs down that barrel at 3,100 fps. That's pretty damn fast and will tend to cause substantial wear, hence the chrome lining for durability. From what I understand, some of these magnum loads DO chew up barrels.
 
 

"Next time don't get so defensive...."

I didn't. You got too sensitive and took it personally.
 
 

"....I don't know as much as you GRANTED,"

You might be surprised. Brother Two Shoes was kind enough :-) to remind me that Colt hasn't chrome lined their non-military/LE barrels for years. I keep forgetting that I am the proud owner of a sacrocinct Colt preban. Of course, TS, there's always Bushmaster!
 
 

"I am new to rifles I am old to shotguns though not that I am a load wizard for them either, or do I claim to be a big expert."

Always the student.
Sometimes the teacher.
Never the expert.
And I don't cast stones. Except at "Bad Kevin."

Chill out, dude.

Moe
 
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.181)

Hmmmmmmmm?
'Lito, questionable lineage Red Boxes, Bronco Bustin...........
Naw we won't go there ;-)
 
 

Doug,
Don't waste time with the 220's go 190gr @2900 fps and BE HAPPY!!!!!!!!
 
 

Chaoski
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
A LITTLE RIBAWLD IN BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:58:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.184)

Laser, map, aerial photography, previous experience in the area, triangulation using mils (not cosine), miling something that was in the area or something halfway to the area. Aerial photography is actualy used extensively as ranging on a photo is very easy and extremely accurate. You take the focal length of the lens in inches (6 inches) and ratio that by the altitude of the aircraft in inches (5000 feet equals 60000). This gives you a ratio (1:10000) that allows you to measure distances very well. In this example 1 inch equals 10000 inches (833 feet)this info is printed on the aerial photo. You would also have ranged on a number of target reference points and logged them on your range card for the purpose of “fun and games.” Again an aerial photo would help greatly(or a map).

When do you mil – as soon as you can get a good reading and start reading the mil calls to your observer. He is computing wind holds and when you have a high hit probability or when you can safely “harass the little beggers”. High probability is close, safe harassment is far. You start to get a reading of 1.4 to 1.5 and you can figure on a target between 675 and 714 so dial 7 minus one and let the guy hold 175 grains of technology. If you want to have a high hit probability you had better wait to a reading of 1.8 to 1.9 mils and then dial 550 and have a ball. This is of course assuming the wind gods are not screwing with the bullet a lot at that time and the target is not moving erratically across your front.

Alternatively, you have several TRPs and you let them walk into an area that you know the range and then you have a target rich environment that permits fun to be had by all.

I agree with Slugboy that there are a number of methods that you must learn to rely on to range on the target area.

HDR – Actually the students graduated were ran through the ringer by 7th SFG(A) and I was only there for validation for their course. My job was to throw monkey wrenches when they got too comfortable with the job. :-)

Well enough math for me tonight.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 02:04:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.64)

Anybody happen to have an armorer's manual for HK-91 style rifles (or info where to get one) ?

Regards,

Ares
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, Ohio, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 02:11:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.230.183)

Didn't even think about the fact that I probably wouldn't be going into an AO that I didn't have some kind of map or other means of topographical or height relationship. The airplane thing really got me.

You guys are going to rip me a new one at the match this year. Me thinks that I will be an observer and learn for the next match. Now that I know where the stalk lanes are, me and Rob could team up and do a number on you dudes.
 

Back to learning and studying, Bolt out again!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 02:19:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.118.227)

Please give me strength to continue preaching to those unwashed masses(.300 Mag Shooter's) that they may see the light and be allowed to through the Pearly Gates vice the
Wes Howe (The Reverend) <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 02:49:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.89)

Stealths are made by Winchester, so they come in Big Red boxes (that didn't sound so good. Actually, it sounds real good... hey Lucy, come over here!! ;)

Winchester also makes the more popular line of centerfire lever actions, and rimfires too.
 

Doug...
The Lupita brochure says that the 300WM cam is for the 220 at 2650... but it is NOT.
It is for the 190SMK at 2950 [They now admit that in the engineering dept, but haven't done anything about it yet to the public yet) :((

Nobody that I've heard of, makes an OTC 220 gr match load for the 300WM.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 03:04:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.55)

You can adjust the trigger for free, and they are usually very good (and easy to adjust). If you want better than that, you gotta make a big jump up, and get a "Jewel" trigger... will run about $200 to $220, but they are out-friggin'-standing!!

Don't waste your money on Timmney's and such... they're no better than the factory trigger.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 03:13:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.55)

Slugboy, welcome back. Glad to see our first regular Brit poster ain't a crap-hat! Does the UK Army still have the Sniper's Badge for the course and qualification?

Bolt, if they're that far away, and you can see them, why give away your position with a rifle? Call in the 81s, 105s, or 155s, and use a combat mix of HE and WP (also called a "Shake and bake" -- hell, for a whole company, I'm sure they'd throw in airburst or proximity fuzes for free). That way you've never compromised your position, and you roll up the whole company.

Doc, I think anything past 1,000 yards really gets problematic. You can use a 16X M1, or a 4.5-15, but a 10X M1 or M3 probably won't give you enough resolution farther out than that to give precise mil'ling on indistinct targets with the dots. With the higher magnifications you'll get a more magnified view of your target for more precise mil-sizing, but you also may have to interpolate your mil-dot sizing because of mirage distortion.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 04:09:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Reverend Wes: Your 6.5 sounds like its a lot easier to hit with. As a hunter, when I hit 'em they have to go down. That's different from you guys involved in social work.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 04:24:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Charlie: I didn't like the Ruger auto, for a few reasons. I see one just about every month on the line, and yes, my Glock does a number on him. As for "spray and pray", I found there is a time. For "across the table" distances, I can point fire moderately well (16/18 in an IDPA "zone", the other 2 shots were in the -1 ring, weakhand only) in blazingly fast speed. As for accurate fire, I doubt there's anyone that would want to stand up or even hold still at long handgun ranges. With either one, headshots at 25 yards are far from the exception to the rule. And as for comparing a M-14 to a Ruger, I ALMOST take offense to that.

Slugboy: good to see you back here! You're always welcome as CDC says.

Bolt: I carry standard USGS maps in my ruck, even when it's a tiny one for hunting. Easier to make terain judgements, and you never get lost LOL. I prefer the topo lines, but some don't. If I were in the lowlands, it wouldn't help any anyways, but I'm in basically a valley between mountain ranges, so there's always something good to triangulate off of. Oh, and don't forget those danged ziplock bags. I don't know who came up with the waterproofing for the map pocket of the ALICE, but it DONT work. I used to laminate them, but it's more hassle than it's worth the majority of times. I prefer the ziplock gallon size personally. When I was doing instead of playing, I preferred the lamination because you can draw on it with a grease pencil and make notes on the map. But now I'm playing, not doing ;-) Oh, and if you get into this stuff in defense of our great country (although I don't know where rice paddies are around here in the desert LOL), please send me a written invitation. You'll need a spotter, and that might be my ticket into the Order of the Raven. Isn't that a good "kit shakedown"? HA! Oh, while the USGS maps are a touch expensive, you can get them in different scales to match what you're doing, which I like. Besides, once you have them, you've got them, and if you're like me, a vast majority of your fun is in the same several map areas anyway.

Big Will and Michael: thanks for the concern, I'm just lurking more, and leaving the good stuff to the real experts, one of whom, I'm certainly not. But I do read it every day, after all, I want to learn good stuff too! Still working on becoming a great spotter.....

Sir Wes: your spotters rifle is "in the bag". You, my friend, are gonna be WAY impressed. Good luck on getting some great glass to go with it. Geoff does a hell of a great job. Now, how can I help you convert these heathens? HA! My 6.5 Swede is something I can shoot all day. Not a 300!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
We'll see how Mel did in "THE PATRIOT", tomorrow night, the occupied UN zone called the USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 05:19:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.136)

2 Shoes
Sandman time......
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 05:20:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.204)

Guide gun? How about the 1895 Limited Marlin. Holds lots more boolets in the tube than the guide gun. .45-70 hits that steel like you threw a brick. I caught the frame of a discarded television set at 100 and it just about went into orbit. Works very well. Haven't shot my Sharps since I got it. It's a lifelong keeper. The 1895, as well as all my Marlins, came in a brown cardboard box.
 

Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
SanDiegonista, Kalifornistan, somewhat in the USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 05:34:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.110.41)

$0.02 worth.
Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Sandiegonista, Kalifornistan, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 05:38:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.110.41)

Can't wait for the sun to start shining, the prairie dog population needs a dent put in it!!!

I'm outta here,
Ben
 

Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 06:13:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.188)

Can't wait for the sun to start shining, the prairie dog population needs a dent put in it!!!

I'm outta here,
Ben
 

Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 06:15:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.188)

Dudes! Long time no speak! In case some of you have wondered what happened to www.sniperhide.com; it vanished. We can now be found at:
http://run.to/sniperhide or at http://www.aspiringtech.com/sniperhide.

We want to thank Aspiringtech for hosting our site this way!

For now, the contents haven't changed, but there's new stuff on the way.

Thank you for you attention.

Stefan
Stefan, Marco & Arend <sniperhide@run.to>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 06:52:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 213.46.159.37)

CDC...
"Heavy Bitch Varmint sums it up pretty well."
Yup... if the women in my life treated me half s good as my M70 HBV's, sheep wouldn't look so good ;)

Two Shoes...
You forgot "Cats and Dogs living together" ;)... sorry, won't do it again.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Beware of the man with ONE GUN... cuz he's pissed at the world... his wife won't let him buy anymore!, - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 09:27:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.54)

drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 12:52:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.70.187.218)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 13:53:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

The revolver load I mentioned previously is a 357 MAGNUM MAXIMUM LOAD. (10gr of Blue Dot, 158gr Speer Gold Dot JHP, loaded in 357 Mag cases.)

It is NOT a 38 special load, and if loaded in 38 cases and fired in a 38 it could ruin the gun and possibly injure the shooter.

While safe and exceptionally accurate in my 357 Mag, it may not be in yours. Start 10% lower and work up cautiously.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 15:41:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.14)

Check out the Article on Canadian Gun Registration in the March ed. of America's 1st Freedom.
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 15:55:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Lets see a big turn out at the SMTC match this year.. Anyone up for SS3 or HRP ???
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 16:19:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

A few things.

One is I have met John Jardine (trained by his uncle Armand Swensen) and shot the Valtro 1911. I shot the Valtro against the Springfield TRP. A total of approx 1700 rds were shot without cleaning in four hours between the two pistols by me. No question the Valtro is the finest production 45 I have ever used. I say this after going into this with the idea that the Springfield would kick its butt. Man was I wrong. The more I shot both the more I liked the Valtro. In the end I shot 250 through the Springfield and 1450 through the Valtro.

This is not to say the Springfield is not a good pistol. The Springfield is a great pistol, but damm Jardine knows what he is doing. He spec'd every bit of this pistol. He has checked every bit of it and will not let anything but the best get by him. When I picked up the Valtro(1199.00 retail) it was like picking up a 3,000.00 plus hand built pistol. Kimber look out Valtro has just done to you what you did to Colt!

I will be doing a review of the pistol in detail in the near future. I need to shoot a few, hell 10,000 more rounds through it, but for now it is in my holster.
 

On the next note. My website is now hosted by Ken Hunter, the same that hosts SC. If you have web needs Ken is excellent to deal with. A great guy and one hell of a shooter. He is only better at being a team player and nice guy. Cant say enough good about him. Pablito and I agree on this.LOL

I spoke with Jim MItchell yesterday and I am looking forward to meeting him in person in July. This website is full of good guys.

Class in July is full and we have started a waiting list. James and I have talked and we are going to run more classes next year and work together on a Carbine and Pistol class in addition to rifle classes.

Take care all

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 16:34:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Yes, we still use the crossed rifle badge with the 'S' above it. This is sewn to the right wrist for Sniper (Basic, badge tested) and on the right upper arm of Sniper Instructors (above chevrons)
This said few people in my unit actually wear the badge, we have enough on display already, chevrons, DZ Flashes, wings and Bde Patches. Its not that we aren't proud of being Snipers its just that we don't feel the urge to advertise the fact to those outside the unit who don't need to Know (Roster accepted)
I personally do not have complete faith in the Sniper badge system. The tests are all spot on but I've seen the effects of this system over the last 20 years. The test to be 'Badged' is a couple of days of going through all of the skills taught and practiced during the sniper course. Too often I have seen troops who have been piss poor during the six week build up manage to 'get lucky' during the Badge test, these have then been classed as Snipers. On the flip side I've seen sound, consistant guys fail one skill on the badge test and not classify as Snipers.
Now I'm in a better position to effect who is chosen for the section in my Bn., I use the badge test as a guide to standards throughout the cadres and select the most consistant with the best apptitude for the job

Badges! who needs stinkin Badges!
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 16:41:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

I can tell you from expreience though that the 168 match in the 30s and the 165s tracked really close in my 300WM and 308s but then you probably have more experience with the hunting bullets than I do.

I would think that a the GameKing would probably track closer to the 140MK than the 142s. I have nothing to base this on other than the difference in how the 140s and 142s fly. I would guess that within realistic hunting ranges there probably wouldn't be a nickles worth of difference.

In my 260s the 142s fly nearly 1-MOA flatter past 800yds than the 140s or the 140AMAXs do. Maybe Wes can add something more to this on his esperiences with the 6.5x284 he has.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 17:14:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Pat: Bull elk. Right now I'm using a sporter weight .338 with 250 gr Nosler partitions. I wouldn't be comfortable hunting them with a 6.5. The 6.5 sounds about ideal for deer.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 17:18:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Why wait until SOF, well some I'm not yet at liberty to discuss so I'll fill you in on the story behind the picture in the Gallery take in Kosovo.
Basically my unit was asked to provide an overt Sniper coverage of Pristinas centre (around the Grand hotel) in order to deter any attempt of attack against Mad.,Albright on her initial visit to the capital.
I recce'd the area with some guy from the British Metropolitan Police who did this sort of task for a living. I did expect him to lead the way, but once I began speaking of angle shooting and interlocking arcs he decided to leave it to me.
With the recce complete we deployed to the roof tops (a day later) with positions on six different buildings pretty much sealing all routes in and out. I used my Camelbak fitted with a Karabiner attached to the small wall in the photo for a rest/support. This allowed me to swing through the arcs I needed to cover.
Prior to deployment I'd made up range cards for all of the locations, these showed arcs, ranges and angles for each position. Also each man had Angle charts, wind charts etc.. to safe time when calculations were needed.
The ground was covered by F/Force CS from my unit and various Special agencies.
We set up in good time, having had a problem obbtaining ammo for the task because the decision had been made to remove all weapons of above 5.56mm calibre from the streets to 'lower the aggressive profile' a few weeks earlier. (Our shooting days were deemed as over, its amazing how quickly we made the transition from War wageing to peace keeping) Hence all 7.62mm had been packed (So they were not happy to have to alter their paperwork! REMFS (Rear Ech Mother's)
After the first couple of hours or so, just prior to the appearance of Ms. Albright the dreaded crack of a high velocitly round came winging past my position, dread of dread the worst was about to happen, someone had decided to take us on. I instinctively spun around and found myself pointing at the inner cordon.
This was F/Force area, I had to be wrong, I'd been shot at before in Urban areas, I knew sound echos and often it was hard to pin down the fire from automatic weapons let alone a single shot.
I scan the area trying to ID a fire point, my No 2 was unable to get any positive sightings from any of the Sniper CS on the net. Troops below were following hard and fast in the possible direction of the fire. This seemed to them to be out on the high ground past the Pristina Stadium, the opposite direction to which I had turned but directly in line with the crack which passed my position.
No further shots were fired and the visit continued without further incident. It was discovered that an Albanian had, had a Negligent discharge from the inner cordan this had been the reason things had returned to normal (Although no one informed us until after the visit)
Lessons learnt:
Trust your instinct, Ensure comms between ground troops and Snipers is maintained (They do tend to forget about us unless pressured)
and don't be suprised when some vet (Falklands in this case, Sniper trained as well) Fucks you off for ammo (we had to scream, shout and kick ass for it, One Officer said, I quote 'You know as well as I do you won't fire a round')

Who needs Enemies, we have enough trouble fighting polititians!
Hope this is of interest
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 17:21:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

Are our rifles too heavy?
Is 10X magnification really needed?

In the field is a 13-15 lb. SWS really warranted?

What would be compromised if one were to field a 9 lb. SWS mounting a 6X scope?

Have we adopted a SWS designed to perform well on the field fire range while overlooking the fact that a lighter weapon system might be better suited for actual combat operations?

For instance, if it is to be a "one shot war" why the emphasis on the very heavy barrel contours. I know the heavy platforms mitigate pulse effects etc. but have we gone too far?

Have we compromised in favor of the heavy gun because it can be fired a lot and not shift POI during training while overlooking the fact that we've now burdened the soldier with an extra 5-6 lbs to carry.

A fixed 10X scope with the narrow field of view is a hindrance to the sniper when confronted with close range fleeting targets. Variable power scopes have yet to find their way to the military inventories. Wouldn't a 6X scope be a reasonable compromise?

All this written by a guy who is about to take delivery on a M40A1. I hope I havn't made a mistake. I know that with my new rig I'll be competative at a sniper match. I'm just not sure that I've bought the best SWS for real world use.

I'm wondering if the ".308 Towed" rifles so popular today at sniper matches and in the military aren't the sniper community equivalent to a compensated IPSC race gun.

Now in defilade @ MOPP 4...
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 18:25:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Elk rifles, Deer rifles, etc.......It's not the size of the cartridge that matters as much as familiarity. By that I mean familiarity with the game that you're after, the area that you're hunting, and the rifle and load that you're shooting. I have good friends in this area (W. Colo. Rockies) that are native to these mountains and take their Elk with a .22-250 EVERY YEAR, with no losses! I wouldn't do it myself nor would I recommend it to anyone else, but it goes to prove that IMHO the hunter kills the game, not the ballistics table. I also hunt with guys that use the .338, .375, and .300 Magnums and those cartridges always do right by them, as long as the hunter does his part. As for me, I regularly use the .30-'06 with 180gr. Nosler Partitions for Elk, and I don't do any better or any worse than the varmint caliber shooters or the Magnum guys. Almost thirty years of hunting this country backs that up for me.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 18:27:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.45)

In Sweden the hunters kill more than 50.000 elks EVERY year with rifles mostly chambered in 6.5X55 Swedish. The ranges are usually short, 50-100 yards, but the elks do go down easily when the hit is where it should be.

The bull elks in the USA are bigger so of course a bigger bullet is better, but 6.5X55 is a pretty darn good round with 140-160 grein game bullets.

So do not discount the 6.5 to be a Deer-only caliber. Of course every hunter should use a calibre he is confident with so choose whatever you want to. I would pick 9.3X62 for Elk medicine in Europe but I do not hunt.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 19:02:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

As far as heavy barrels go, they seem to keep their accuracy a lot longer than the smaller contour #3, 5 or 7, especially in the magnums, and they seem to hold up better when banged around and dropped. Hell a little nick in one of those thin M16 barrels or a little heat from auto/rapid fire could send the round way off target when trying to shoot 50 yds away. I agree with you it probably has something to do with barrel life and the amount of training rounds going through the barrel, but I think I would rather carry the extra weight and know I'm on target even after shooting 50 rounds or so. There's just something about heavy barrels that keeps their precision consistently time after time. It would be great to think it's always a one shot deal and I'm the winner but it doesn't always come out that way. LOL

You sound like your in the market for a new 50 cal. towed. (by a truck)

You going to do the trainup with Andy this year????
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 19:38:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

If someone prefers something else, use it. You'll get no arguement from me.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 20:22:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Andy and I plan to be at the train-up and the Rendezvous. We've celebrated Andy's birthday at SMTC the last few years and he always looks forward to taking time off school to go visit his "Uncle Rod".

Because I'm well past twenty and peak physical shape I'm training Andy real hard. He's my designated spotter/sherpa.

I wonder how much of the performance envelope of a M40A1 could be covered with a well built 9 lb. SWS with a 6X scope.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 21:51:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

We'll be out this weekend setting up two new UKD ranges for the Precision Rifle classes here at Gunsite. Next class is Apr 2-6, anyone on the Roster attending?

Ran into a set of Lightforce sloped Weaver bases that were milled and drilled so off center, used up all but 2 minutes of windage in a 4.5x14 Leupold to zero. Leupold bases and MWG base worked fine. Anyone ever look at the ATN Mark 4 style rings that screw down on both sides, providing windage adjustment? How in the world do you get that to work without twisting the scope tube so bad the lenses pop out?

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it
CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 00:23:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

The current issue M40A1 weighes 14.5lbs. Call it 15lbs loaded with a scope cover, and I think it's bordering the edges of too heavy. I think about 12.5lbs loaded is plenty. Humping 100lbs of gear when I can hump 90 instead is stupid. Those extra pounds don't buy you anything, and they could cost you. As I brought up earlier and Rick said, the USMC is looking too much at what the civilian 'tactical shooters' are doing and not enough at what the grunts in the field are doing. Quantico has never called us, never E-mailed us, never faxed, no bulletins, nothing, nada. My active buddies out on the west coast don't hear from them either. I'm talking guys who run the 1st Reg prep school, and guys who work the SS platoons for the Bn's. You'd think they at least hear of somebody getting a call. But no, Quantico just decides to do what they want and we(the guys using them) will make do. The new rifle is going to weigh 18.5 f**king pounds without the suppressor!!! That's stupid! You are going to have this hyper developed right forearm from humping this thing. Everybody gets all orgasmic over the 1000+yd shots. You know what? My longest shot was 1100yds out at Rng 400 at 29 Palms. It took me four rounds to get on, and I was going about 30% from then on depending on the wind shifts. I NEVER would have tried that IRL unless it was pretty hopeless. BG's shoot back. Most of the work is going to be done at 400-750yds, past 800 you're usually just playing semi-serious unless conditions are very good. We're adding 5lbs of weight to pick up the last 10% of capability and I think it's dumb. What's so hard about making a hardened 12.5lb rifle? Nothing. The Palma countours seem to handle long strings of fire without shifting zero due to heat. You want to use a barrel as a crowbar, go buy a crowbar. I baby my gun. Yes, it has to be environment resistant, it has to be hardened. It doesn't need to double as the boat anchor for a LCU.
As for scopes, 10x is too much, 6x would be fine for 99% of all missions and would be better for most of them. I'm pretty sure the grunts would break variables, but I have several on my own guns. The new scope rail on the M40A3 looks like it'll be a winner if they can get the SL-3 gear down to the platoons and get the guys up to speed on how to use it. The NSN ACOG from the M4 SOPMOD kit would be great for 95% of the urban stuff we do, where the 223 just isn't enough bullet. Enough ranting. Semper Fidelis...
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 00:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

You obviously have a decent knowledge of your weapons but I have to find fault with your lack of logic or common sense in not buying glasses instead of weaponry and ammo. Eyesight is THE most important sense to a shooter. You are doing yourself and those that shoot with you a great dis-service by not correcting your vision so that you can see what you are shooting at. Me thinks that you need to adjust your priorities.

Sometimes I wonder about the next generation, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 00:53:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.40)

Given the desire to work at longer ranges, I don't have a problem with 10x. Snap shots are a bit more effort, but a good mount and some practice can work that out in short order. I think that 6x, or even 4x, is quite good for a PD precision marksman. I can only find three instances of shooting past 125 yards for a PD, the max being 320. 4x is perfectly adequate to make shots at 400, hell my 3 MOA dot Aimpoint on an M4 can hit a Pepper Popper at 300 just fine, it's 1x. Since the shortest shot I know is 14 yards, and the majority of shots are taken < 100, the extra field of view for that job is quite welcome. PD's get good use of a variable, military guys don't need it. If you don't need it, why put up with the additional modes of failure?

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 00:56:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

I wanted to ask if there is anyone here that knows if the Robar SR90 is currently being used by any law enforcement agencies or militaries anywhere worldwide. If so, I am interested in what kind of track record it has with any of these organizations. I have seen the rifle many times but I never see it listed with any agencies or anything.

Thanks for replying,

Ralf
Ralf <sledghamr@aol.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 01:28:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.117.152.15)

The Sniper is a tool - the team must report information, and if they must shoot it should be for priority tgt's and even @400m it is easier to tell an officer with a 10x than a 6x.

Charlie I think you misread it was not trigger pull but SWS weigth reduction
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 01:48:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Thanks
Charlie

Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
Jonesboro, AR, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 02:24:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.191.252.17)

I'll put in my two cents worth on the scope issue.

First, unless you're in the military, your chances of seeing/using a Unertl 10X is almost 'nil. Except for a few samples released and some Canadian models that were sold. Solid gear, but heavy, and now dated.

I've used fixed and variables. Both have their places. I like the variable for LE and Varminting for several reasons. Foremost among them is the average shooting is about 80 yards. Do we need side focus and 10X power for that...NO, IMHO. The variable allows you to change for distance and conditions. I've use them successfully for years. A good clear 6X would fit the bill here, as well. Additionally, the lower power offers wider field of view. Something needed for short range fluid sitiuations.

The MK IV 10X M1 has proven excellent on my M40A1 clone. Although the adjustment turrets turn a bit harder to turn than I'd like. Both a down side and a plus. The plus being that they don't get knocked out of alignment easily. The are rugged and proven. The are "affordable" at just over $1K dealer cost. Don't forget mounts are part of the system.
Badger is the way to go, IMHO.

My Chandler Super Sniper sports a Vari-X III 3.5 x 10X M1 w/Mil-Dot reticle and 30mm tube. Very clear, . Thes well, and provides superb repeatability. It is one of my picks of the litter.

Lastly, for the spotter, I like a variable or fixed 6X. The have a spotting scope with far more power than their rifle has...hence, no need for high power scopes.

Picked up a discontinued Luppie MK IV 6X M3 w/Mil-Dot today for a VERY reasonable price. It will go on my M25 system. I'll smile and be happy.

My opinion only. If you agree please send .02 cents to...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 02:25:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.43)

Weapon weight, the weapon becomes heavier as you increase the ruggedness of the weapon. There is a limit and I feel the Marines went too far. They are using a lot of material that is just plain overkill. Another issue on the weapon weight is that a heavier weapon is more stable in a shooting position. Again this has limitations and has that magic point of diminishing returns, again I believe that the Marines leapt over that line as well. The heavy barrel of the weapon increases stability of the weapon, lowers barrel whip, decreases barrel droop especially in the desert, and aids in prevention of barrel deformation (bent barrel from exiting aircraft and impacting on ground). Last but not least, a heavier weapon stays on target and permits a rapid follow on shot when necessary when a lighter weapon would have problems. Also there are situations when One Shot, One Kill denotes accuracy not the mission! As you can see the negatives far out weight the chance to move with a lighter weapon. The young studs can do it nicely with minimal threats and promises of Valhalla with its virgins! In conclusion, nope you did as good as a Marine style weapon will do. :-)

Tony – I will take the big crew served knife over a little pickle sticker anyday. Never stab what you can lop off!

Bill – I agree that tactical means you have to strike and move but it is a pain when you strike and miss because your equipment was made with comfort in mind. :-) I agree on the over 14x and would counsel against over ten in most situations. The variable in the 2.5 to 10x is good. I like the lower end for certain “tasks” and that is why I go that way instead of the 4.5 by 14. I have seen mirage eat the image up so bad that the target is doing the shimmy shimmy coco pop!

Doug – Once you have the cold weather shift set in the zero then the rest of the come ups are valid as long as the weather does not change, just remember and log the shifts for each temp change. As an example, you must come down 1 moa for each 20 degrees from 100 to 500 yards.

Ken – Agree and disagree, have shot the lower power scopes and was not happy at all. Used the 6x Unertl and 2.5x M84 scopes. In a world of confusing patterns, at range the lower powers miss too much. The spotter sees but can’t get you on because you can’t see. The variable is the way to go and I do think the newer ones will survive the three steel ball bearing test. WE are looking at another scope that is a 2.5 to 6x for the SOPMOD upper sniper support/observer weapon. It works nicely!

Cory – I must disagree with you on the 9lb 6x. I will do much more with the 10x in many field situations due to target resolution and the requirement to positively ID the target. I think you would have trouble with your 3moa aim point in a field situation where the target is being a pain to find and aim on. The same holds true with the lower powers, been there, done that and hated it. Have the Marines gone over board, by all means and by every measure of sanity. They have only not put custom mirror and leather seats on the monster.

Ralf – Used the Robars, in 7mm Mag, in Saudi with the Royal Guard Counter Snipers protecting the King of that lovely country.

On the LEA front, again the statements for the lower power has problems in that you still need positive Identification. An example, BG has knit balaclava, looks out of window numerous times, decision is to take the dummy out on the next look see. Balaclava, dark jacket, has to be the target, opps stand of red hair sticking out form under the mask. This actually occured and it saved a young lady AND the other hostages due to a very irate BG had the shot gone down. There are reasons in the field for the choices made on many items. Again the Marines went over that fine line betwixt hard and stupid. No actually they leapt mightily over that sucker.

Out here and sorry for the long post. Ate a bit of band width here.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:07:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.106.34)

THANKS

KC
Dallas
KC <swatcop911@msn.com>
dallas, tx, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.22.205.197)

It has been quite some time since I posted anything here - well over a year. Have been lurking around for a few days now, looking at the recent posts and trying to catch up on some of the archives - LOTS of reading! Really nice to see familiar names on here still.

OK - I haven't bought a new gun for almost 2 years now and I'm starting to think that maybe I really NEED one of those Winchester M-70 Stealth rifles!! But, I don't feel any great need to have one that is chambered for .223 Rem, .22-250 or .308 Win. I THINK that a M-70 Stealth chambered for the new 300 WSM would be just the ticket! Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this new cartridge? Have any of you heard anything about Winchester possibly offering the Stealth chambered for this cartridge? Any info would be appreciated.

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:26:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.143.43)

Big knife vs small: Big knives chop. Little ones don't. Chopping is necessary. And it is a BOWIE knife, designed by Sam Bowie and used to gruesome effect by his famous brother. Sylvester Stallone was nowhere to be found. Don't let Hollywood take over your brain.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

THANKS FOR ALL THGE HELP GUYS, THIS DUMB OLD COP NEEDS ALL THE ADVICE HE CAN GET !!

KC, DALLAS

kc <swatcop911@msn.com>
dallas, tx, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:37:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.30.41.13)

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:51:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 04:30:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.186)

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 04:33:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 04:55:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

I don't see that target ID is compromised at the ranges ( < 300 ) where a shot with hostages might be involved. All other things being equal, a 6x is brighter than a 10x. The 10x IS better in the 600 + yard area, especially with small targets. It lets you get a more refined aiming point for sure. However, considering the average hit probability on partial targets in excess of 600 yards, then improvement is marginal. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE 10x for a military sniper. I don't see 6x as being an improvement, just not a big impediment. I prefer a 3.5x-10x variable for PD work, since you can dial down in darkeness or close range. I'd say 6x is also a fine choice for that mission, and I'd have no problems with fielding such a unit.

Certainly there is some personal preferance here, but the question is can it be done. I'd say it can, but I still use 10x myself ;).
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 05:18:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

The most renowned moose poacher in Central Maine used a .32-20 bolt action Win. M43 (.32-20 is almost identical to .30 Carbine ballistically).

Low report, and dropped moose effectively. Had to get within about 75 yds., but thats not hard around Millinocket, you can't see past about 25.

Inuit (Eskimos) in Alaska and Canada have used .22 Hornet and .222 Rem. for years on everything from seals to caribou. Cheap, 50 rounds fit in your pocket, etc.

Talked to an elk guide who works the Gila Wilderness in NM, he says the .308 Win. is perfect, all else is overkill, and many times produces flinch which means bad shot placement and lost game.

Point is, the 6.5's and 7x57's and the like, will do fine in the US, IF the shot is properly placed. Better a hit with a 6.5 than a miss with a .338 Lapua.

I doubt that an elk shot through the heart or lungs with a .437 Krackenboomer will die any quicker than if it were hit with a similarly placed shot from a .308 Win.

Just my $0.02.

Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 05:47:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.13)

Hexa, whether elk or moose, 50k sounds like an awful lot of animals for such a small country. Are you sure you've got your numbers right? Sure the 6.5 will kill elk or moose at close to medium range with perfect standing-still broadside shots. But what about running, quartering away shots in thick woods or at long range?

Alan, a 22-250 for elk? You've got to be kidding?

Boys, let me make it plain. A .270 is just about minimum for honest use on elk. Certainly a 22-250 will kill elk under absolutely ideal conditions. So will a 22 rimfire. But nobody who cares about the animal hunts elk with with pip-squeak gopher-gun calibers.

I surely do get upset when someone says that it's the hunter not the caliber, or something similar, and then proceeds to brag up elk hunting with .22's (or .243's). That's absolute nonsense. All "real hunters" use enough gun. And 22's are definately NOT enough gun for elk.

Rant mode off.
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 06:02:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.12)

I used a 6x w/Mildots for a shoot on the Inch'on range at West Poind Military Academy... only once.
Targets were 6" steel plates, and after the paint was tore off them in the first ten minutes, they were very hard to see, and imposible to mil.
If you are shooting at big, white 20"x40" steel plates in an open field, then 6 will get you by, but the mildots are V-E-R-Y little, and real close together.
If your targets are wearing green and brown grease paint, you need all the "see" you can (consistant with solid shooting).
A 3.5x10 variable M3-LR is real nice, but for a fixed power, I'd take a 10x for all around field conditions.

Lupita used to make a 6x MK4-M4... very nice scope... BOMBED OUT, and dissapeared from the market. I'd put one on a semi-auto spotter's riffle, but otherwise, I would pass.
 

UnDude...
"Pablito and I agree on this"

UnDude-ski! You have to STOP this agreeing stuff... folks are gonna start to talk ;)

Flash...
Counter-Rant in Hexa's defence - 50K Elk is nothing... the snow covered countries are lousy with elk... watch a National Geographic documentary sometime... the elk heards are huge, and can cover the landscape (in more than one way... bring boots ;).
Our own Eskimo's shoot Sea Lions (about 1500 to 2000 pounds) with 223 Rem rifles, and never loose animals... they are "hunters", not "shooters"... and lotsa guys get animals with small calibers.
I'm not advocating being "under gunned" but that's a term that is not fixed... it's skill related.

For a city guy, a 300WM, or 375 H&H may be needed for a broad side shot at 100 to 200 yds... but for a native, or a very good woodsman, a .223 in the ear, from 20 yds, will do it every time. and there are people that do it all the time.

And, of course, there's "Karamojo Bell"... who took nearly 1000 elephant with a Manlicker carbine... in 7mm Mauser.

avgshooter...
Congrats. As CDC said, it is a Winchester "HBV" (Heavy Barreled Varmint)... the stock is made by H-S, and has a aluminum bedding block in it, and it is factory glass bedded. the Stock design is called the"Winchester Marksman", and is possibly one of the best designs ever... first used as a target stock in the 1930's, it was used on sniper rifles from the Pacific campagn in WW2, to Viet Nam... and it is still copied by H-S, McMillen, and several others.
$400... You did GOOD!

Bill Moore...
I have an M70 Featherweight, in .270, with a wood stock, and it's really nice... quality is right up there... everything is really fine.
You should have one... they're good for you ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 09:37:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.104)

Dear Sirs.
 
 
 
 
 
 

The Swedish moose weight is usually between 450 to 1200 pounds. In 1999 102 000 moose were shot in Sweden, most of them with 6.5X55.
 
 

The 6.5X55 is not the first choice for moose, but used wisely with heavy premium bullets it can certainly do the job.
 
 

The reason why the 6.5X55 is so popular in Sweden is that it has low recoil, is accurate, you can get high quality match ammo for half the price of normal training ammo for other caliber’s, it has been a military round and there are still lots of ammo and guns around, the caliber is used by many competition shooters.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

/ Per
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Per <perrep16@hotmail.com>
Sweden - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 10:43:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 138.221.200.106)

Nahh... that thing is real junk - I willl do you and him a favor and offer him $410 - that way you won't be burdened with it :)
 

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Possible Winter Storm Sun & Mon, in Flakey Northern Va, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 11:39:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

I want to start building my case/presentation on why as a SRT, we need precision riflemen.

It is my goal to be able to present a thesis with supporting documentation from those that are on a team as PR, those that are team commanders and if I can get a administrator or two; why it is necessary to have them, why it's dangerous not to have them, what are expected costs for start up, ROE, SOP's, green light vs sniper initiated engagement, liability, equipment and if possiable actual case information on sniper engagements or sniper involvement on call outs. I would also not rule out having military input.

If any of you would like to assist me in this endeavor, I would be much obliged. Or, if you know who could assist me, please email me privately.

Of course, I cannot remit any renumeration only the satisfaction of bringing a SRT online and providing it with the proper assets.

If any of the astute members of this web site, has contacts for the much recognized names in this business, that would help tremendously.

I look forware to your input and assitance in this worthwhile endeavor.

It's going to be a good ride!

Pakrat
aka - Patrick Sloan
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, Tejas, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 12:09:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Can't spell, Texas, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 12:12:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Ken: Aren't you the generous one.

Light Rifles: I have a custom Rem 700 Mtn rifle that weighs less than 7 lbs total even with a 1.5 x 6 Ziess on it which probably wieghs 2 lbs by itself in 308. It was built for PA whitetails and black bear. It is a tack driver with 168 or 180 hunting bullets for first or second shot follow ups when needed. It's a great cold bore shooter. But at the range that's a different story, after 10 consecutive rounds that #1 contour 20" barrel heats up and fouls that your lucky if you get 2 MOA at best. If you were to try and shoot something like that at a class like the ones at SMTC you would probably burn the barrel up in a weekend. Granted there is a lot of overkill out there with these 18 - 20 lb towed rifles but for me I'm not the most agile and gentle person out there, even though I would like to think I care for my equipment the same as others, but when climbing rapel towers, running up and down ranges to take various shots on a stress courses, or sitting out in pouring rain all night, you are going to knock the crap out of the rifle and I'd like to think that after shooting a couple hundred rounds by the end of the day that my heavy 17 lb SWS will still hit an 800 yd target consistently. That's what it was designed to do and it works.

What a concept!!! I bring the 7 lb MTN rifle for the Stalk, Movers and Stress and the SWS for the Field fire and Group matches this year. Is it allowed ?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 13:24:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

I've been around Navajos enough to believe every word of this story. If a white guy had told it, I would have KNOWN he was full of s***.

If you hunt like he does, you use a different type of rifle than you use if you hunt like I do.

He uses a .223.

I wouldn't even have shot at the last two elk I killed with less than a .300 Win. I've seen too many run that were hit with a .270.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 13:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Boys, let me put the "enough gun" question in proper perspective.

While I'm sure we can all agree that .22 rimfires have killed an awful lot of people, especially fired out of El Cheapo RG's in the inner city, would any of you carry one for self-defense in preference to a 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 357 Mag, etc.?

Then why would you advocate using .223's and 22-250's on 600-800 pound elk? Not that .22's won't work under ideal conditions. They will. But I'd sure have to question the mental capacity of anyone intentionally choosing a .22 for elk, just as I would anyone carrying a .22 RF for defense.

Maybe we should get real here? Experts who have a choice don't use substandard weapons for defense, sniping, targets or hunting. Only amateurs and lame-brains do.

As for Indians, I happen to be part Indian and know for a fact that many Indians are poor and hunt with whatever gun they happen to have available. And necessity doesn't make whatever clunker they use the "best" gun or caliber by any means. But I'll agree that substandard firearms and necessity does make for better stalkers!
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:13:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.13)

"What a concept!!! I bring the 7 lb MTN rifle for the Stalk, Movers and Stress and the SWS for the Field fire and Group matches this year. Is it allowed ?"

You are kidding, right?

If you're not I want to be there when you propose it to Rod.
I'll be sure to bring a IV starter kit.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Agree totally that 10X is minimum for any kind of Sniper work with whoever has said it. The 10X fixed Leupy is a great device. The M-3 is better for the task due to the 1 min clicks and lower powering.
Even side focus can be an advantage that can be crutial in some circumstances.
Forget what you've heard about variable scopes men, when it's good it will handle it nicely. Don't go by all the cheap stuff and the complaints you've heard on it. If in doubt.. put a Bushnell bore sighter on it (the one with the squares as opposed to lazers and magnetic ones and all that stuff) and run the power ring up and down. I guarantee if there's a shift you can see it. Same thing on the turrets. Check every click up and down and sideways and know what you glass will do. Don't be surprised if your favorite tube lets you down in this test. I recommend this to ALL agencies that shoot past hostages. It don't cost much and it will keep you informed as to what you have mounted on that barrel. Pull it out of the stock and see what happens to the impact point. If there's a big shift more than just a 1/4 or 1/2 minute vertical you have bedding problems. You heard it here on Sniper Country. Go forth and do it today!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:37:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I have to agree with Bill and Ken on the heavy gun issue. We have gone to far in favor of games. I almost believe that the Marines, for once, have copied the civilian shooters. You see a lot of "Towed" rifles at the matches and the trend is to the heavy 26" barrels and big heavy stocks with built in bipods to make the 1000+ yard shots or lay there and drill little holes. When you drop these things on the ground its like shooting off of a bench. I haven't been to a shoot yet where there hasn't been military shooters drooling over them.

Most tactical shoots you can get away with the extra weight because you aren't humping it for miles at a time and you do a lot of shooting. There are a lot of multiple shots or speed shooting and the heavy guns do really give you the edge. I have seen some rifles that resemble rail guns or heavy bench guns called tactical rifles, not in my book.

I agree with Rick on scopes, 10x is about min in my view for long range shooting. I also think that the 30MM tube is a must. You get better clarity and optics. I prefer the variables over the fixed because its nice to be able to turn down the power for movers or mirage.

Once again at matches you see guys using 6.5x20s or even higher power trying to make shots that they really wouldn't take in real life. At one match we shot at air gun targets at 100 and 200yds and the center is about 1/8" or trying to hit a 3/4" wide face at 200yds.

Guns are being built to win matches not for practical field use. I have found that you need at least two different guns if you want to be competative in matches. You need one that is heavy with high power optics that is capable of consistant under .5 MOA and will shoot multiple shots without getting hot and one that is capable of long range accuracy at 1000+ yards but still mobil.

I hate to say it but tactical shooting matches are getting to be just like IPSC shooting where the "Race" guns are becoming the edge in many shoots, "You can't beat cubic dollars". Off my soap box now.

CDC..
I don't disagree with you on the big mags but then as it has been pointed out and you have said its still the shot and the hunter. I probably wouldn't take a 270 or a 6.5x284 elk hunting because if I found the once in a life time bull I would want to be able to take him up to 400 or ever 500yds and that requiers a big mag.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:44:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:52:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I was a dealer when they "went bad", and never touched them again.
When they turned around, and came out with the Featherweight, I thought I wanted one just because it was so damn purty.
I got one in .270, and really loved it... then I got to buy a M70 HBV in a McMillen "A2" stock from my town for $125... loved that one... then I found a brand new M70 Custom Sharpshooter, first model, in .308, at a gun store I passed buy... and it's been a down hill slide ever since.

I get bad fevers, and the doctor says "You gotta get a M70, or you may have to come into the hospital".

I get them for medicinal reasons ;))

Flash...
Your comment about 22 rimfires killing a lot of people, is out of context and irrelevent... and nobody is ADVOCATING ANYTHING.
Just trying to open your eyes, that there are no "GOTTA BEE'S" in shooting.

There are many levels of skill, and those at each level, think THEY are the standard... people that push their limits shooting a woodchuck at 200 yds, can't believe that a PD can be shot a 800 yds... cuz they can't do it, or haven't learned how to do it.

Use what you need, to take the game you want CLEANLY... don't worry about what others can do, and don't doubt other's skill levels, if they are more skilled than you... just do what you can, and maybe better next time.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Another damn day of snow, in shooters hell., - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 15:57:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.98)

Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 17:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

Bill, could you please expand on that comment?

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 18:02:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.196.211)

Didn't the little Mex kid ever grow up? Or did dragging 800 pound 6x6's out of the woods every year stunt his growth?

"lito":

I must respectfully disagree with your comments regarding revelance, because for me the ".22RF for defense" analogy is relevant and to the point.

How so? Because although I investigated more shootings involving .22RF's than any other caliber, that didn't magically turn the lowly .22RF into a great defense caliber any more than "war stories" about Navajos and old Mexicans magically transforms .223's, 22-250's and 30-30's into great elk calibers. That's the sense and the relevance of it all.

Are you suggesting that maybe we are wasting our money on $1500 - $3000 sniper rifles when a $150 SKS would work as well? All we'd have to do is get a little closer for the shot, right? Just like the Indians in the hunting stories?

To me, using too little gun is a sure-fire sign of inexperience. It's what eastern "dudes" might do when hunting elk for the first time. Experts, on the other hand, use enough gun if they can afford one.

In case anyone wants to know, the "best" Elk calibers are 7mm, 300 and 338 magnums. Others will do, but IMO these are the best all-around take-em where you find-em long range calibers.
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 18:06:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.15)

If you can make that statement after what several have said, then you have missed everything that has been said, and this thread is getting so silly, it is becoming a words game, I won't even dignify it by responding.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 18:49:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.98)

I'm from Jersey, I don't own a Weatherby or an Eddie Bauer anything.

Just remember, California is in the west...how would you like it if I started slurring you guys all together.

Hmmm. Bill and Ted's excellent hunting adventure...
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 19:15:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Most guides I've been with have minimun requirements for caliber especially when it comes to dangerous game.

Shoot what your comfortable and good with... using an issued rifle is a different story whatever the weight... Get good with it...

Gee If everyone came to the SMTC match this year we eastern dudes could have a hell of a shooting contest with the good old boys from the west. I guess I'll have to load up the Schofield 45LC's and the loop 94 and pack the cowboy action gear... Yeeee Haaa !!!!
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 19:45:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 21:15:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

"I peered at the VC through my rifle scope. It was a nine power, zerod in a 1000 meters. That meant if I wanted to shoot a **** at a range of 500 meters, I had to aim at his b*lls in order to get him in the chest. If I wanted to to shoot one at 1200 meters I aimed at his head to get his heart. Simple arithmetic. It was b*lls below 1000, head beyond 1000 and heart at 1,000."

Is there a tactical or speed advantage to simply zeroing in at 1000 and using the above physiological equation? I don't think this would work for the match since there is an accuracy component but me thinks this has merit for the real world?
 

In the "WHY" mode this weekend, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 22:57:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.95)

"You sight your rifle in at 450 yards and then use a center hold for 100 yards to 450 yards. The only time you need to readjust your sights is for shots longer than 600 yards."

Whatcha think about that?
 
 

Gonna be a long weekend, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 23:11:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.95)

Flash..... "Hell, I Was There".
 
 
 
 
 

Feelin' like I died and when I got to the Pearly Gates I walked in on an argument between Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 23:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.210)

ACOG's all are made of rthe carry handle just some come with the TA-51 bracket for flattop adoption - there is a 3.5x TA01 with a red triangle and 800 meter range stadia calibrated for the SS109 round out of the 20" A2 bbl.

Bolt, your point blank distance will depend upon you trajectory - some of the flatter calibres will have a much longer point blank distance. Using your bullet drop you can work out your danger space - Master Rick has been demonstrating the effects of bullet drop in the mil-error lessons.

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 00:53:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.140)

In Finland 6.5X55 used to forbidden for Elk even though we knew that it was doing fine in Sweden. Nowadays with a bullet over 140 grains it is legal. The most common calibres are 308 and 30-06 even though 9.3X62 has made some serious inraods now that people have more money and can afford to have a Elk rifle and a bird rifle. Also 45-70 Gov loaded hot is getting more popular.

To Flash and others: In Finland and in most parts of Sweden it is almost imppossible to shoot over long ranges Elk and it is in most cases considered also not sportmanslike etc. I think more power than 6.5X55 would bring a good safety margin but one can not really argue with success.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 01:40:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.122.168)

I do see the need to protect the weapon and give the pod and muzzle a smooth nose cone to get through STUFF with but all that motion gave me the heebee jeebees. Also, gave me more ideas than Carter has little liver pills.

To the shop and drawing board, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 01:54:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.95)

OK Lito, what have you done to the undude? He has agreed with you on several opinions now. This must mean that the body snatchers have invaded again!!!

Pakrat – Tell them that the Observer is the eyes of the commander and entry team. They cover the teams back and help in situations where the team can become pinned. They can warn of a changing situation before it becomes a real mess. They can end a situation before a bunch of hostages are killed or LE officers are due to an unstable situation. They can end a situation rapidly with a single shot once the situation is out of control. I can go on for a real long time, but tell them that if an expert witness is called and you do not have that option in your team then you will probably lose the lawsuit.

Bill – Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that the heavier will shoot better, I am saying, within reason, a 10 to 13 pound gun will be more stable in many situations than the 5 to 7 pound gun. The weapon settles better into position and is more forgiving of pulse and “other distracters”. Now is the 17 – 19 pound gun better yet, Hell no! There is that magic point of diminishing returns and you hit that around 13 to 14 pounds. The weight comes from the heavier barrel, and the solid stock. We need them for the field and jumping out of perfectly good aircraft. I have no desire to jump into an area and find my barrel bent of my stock busted or some other disaster to befall my mission. On the Bushnell bore scope, we use them as a back up check to zero after a jump and for checking scope function and repeatability prior to a course or during when we suspect the scope is not acting properly, like hitting what you aim at. Of course there is always the statement that the student hates, “It ain’t the gun, son.” Side focus is a very good thing as parallax will take you off target as soon as you shadow that scope!

Pat – Solution for the guns built for matches, each day of a competition, first thing, 2 mile walk with weapon at port arms. That will bring the weight down! :-)

Jon – Words of wisdom on contracts for the alphabet agencies such as clowns in action, DON’T! Been there, done that, sucks.

Ken – We are on the same wave length man!

Jim – You can’t slur or make fun of the West Coast as they do it enough themselves!

Bolt – that story is such BS that I could not believe they actually printed it! Any shooter knows that the max ord of a 30 cal (7.62 or 30.06) is WAY over a targets head at 500 when zeroed at 1000 and don’t even get me going on the over 1000 thing! I read that story and a couple of others and was rather surprised that they were not checked before printing. That one was obviously made up by a moron want-a-bee that did not know anything about sniping. That goes with the 1000 and the 450 story. Now then there is a point blank zero that is carried on a gun for snap shots, and the old redfield accutrak was zeroed at 500. Aim at the chest at 500, waist at 400 and 100; groin at 200 and 300; and just over the head at 600. You used the 19 inch ranging stadia lines in the reticle and zoomed until the top of the head and the tit line was inside the stadia lines. The paddle gave you the range and you knew the hold.

Bolt – Now you know why I STRONGLY discourage the use of the dam things. We get guys caught all the time form improper use and the bag giving them away. Then again, hey, the guy was a SEAL, what did you expect? :-)

Enough band width again to sink a ship. Better end this for now.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 03:08:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.37)

The issue and use of drag bags made its way from the USA to these shaws around about 4 - 5 years ago now. It is something we now teach our snipers, however having trialed various methods of use we now tend to follow the following procedure (In my Bn.)

1. The Drag bag is basic, it consists of a rectangular sheet 2' x 3'5'' approx (foam/rollmat covered in DPM cordura) this has various clips for fastening either the L96, .338 or SA80 inside. This then zips onto the side of the Bergan (Rucksack) or daysack/grab-bag (30litre patrol sack) dependant upon mission etc... There are no other pouches, pockets etc.. to prevent it becoming clagged by the 'oh! I'll just put this in there factor'.

2. The SA80 is carried most of the time to react to CQB engagements (The L96 is not good for quick bolt manipulation, bring back the enfield action!) You guys fair better than us when it comes to 2 weapons (the M4 would be a dream to our Snipers, the SA80 is far to bulky)

3. We then patrol/stalk as far as possible to an ERV (emergancy RV)
Here the No2 covers whilst the Sniper changes weapon systems (this is done merely by undoing three quick release clips and one plastic zip(which is quick and quiet)

4. The Daysacks are then cached and camouflaged (the ERV is never at an obvious point. We use an obvious point then move off on a bearing for a set distance to the ERV)

5. The SA80 can either be cached or slung to fit down the centre of the Snipers back (however we leave this decision to the pair on the ground) The sniper will also have a Browning 9mm pistol.

6. The pair then Stalk in bounds to their FFP (Final fire position)

7. After the shot/engagement or task the reverse the procedure (although the route back to the ERV is normally different)

8. We have two loops on top of the Dragbag so a karabiner can be used to drag it but most of us believe it leaves too much sign, makes too much noise, gets caught at the most awkward of times and is another item which can give your position away (Although in the end it is the individual pair who call the shots)
 

Multiple engagements

Historically the vast majority of Sniper engagements have take place over 400m (380yds) or so. We zero the weapon at 300m in an attempt to flatten the trajectory for military shooting. This means that holds up and down, left and right can be made for fleeting engagments or multiple engagements at various ranges.

Todays battlefield and OOTW (Operations other than War) may increase the average engagement due to improved optics and laser range finders however time on target is still a luxury 'most of the time'

Quite often when the chance to engage the Enemy arrives you only have a fleeting glimpse a split second to take the shot, here there is no time for formulas (Especially given the ROE which accompany most Ops today)

Train your snipers to use holds because if you miss the chance you'll kick yourself into eternity!

Don't get me wrong, if the time is there to apply correct wind and elevation then obviously do it, its just that so often it just not o you must prepare as in all things for the 'Worst case senario!'
 

All the best
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 03:41:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

Shoot the Shit, each Sniper has different experiences, what you experience effects how 'You Work' but doesn't make it right!

Remember SF normally carryout different Sniping tasks to normal soldiers. Our Hereford guys Sniper training mainly consists of 'Police/Sharpshooter' type sniping to cover the TEAM during anti- terrorist ops. Max engagement 150m. Here pinpoint accuracy is required to ensure efficient shots. Hence they spend less time doing Green Sniping to the remainder of the Army.

The Green Army are required to 'Hit a man sized target at 900m and provide harrassing fire to 1100m' A man is still quite a big target compaired to a MOA.

A friend of mine with SF says the practice of shooting down pipes as a loophole is Shit. This is because in his experiences it had prevented his team from slotting a terrorist because he'd move out of the apertures feild of view. So to him it was poor practice!

However this same practice was used successfully by a Soviet Sniper in Stalingrad a number of times!

Who is right? Surely both of them.

We learn from each other, an open mind and the choice to use the wider options given by knowledge and possibilities others present may help you when a difficult situations arrives.

Keep the Faith
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 04:12:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

SECOND, our dept is talking about converting some of our AR-15 uppers to either 8", 10" or 12" barrels for entry weapons. Trying to get barrels from Colt is, well, I think Moses will come down off the mountian a second time before Colt ships anything, they seem to be on back order until the next century, so, anyone have any experience or recomendations with a third party vendor that puts out a GOOD upper for the Colt Tactical A-3 in SHORT BARRELS.

As always, I thank you in advance for your response and assistance for this dumb old cop.

KC - Dallas

KC <swatcop911@msn.com>
dallas, tx, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 05:08:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.62.168.209)

Just saw the promo for the "Enemy at the Gate" movie.

If you want a good read on the Battle of Stalingrad, Zaitsev, etc., get "The War of the Rats" by David L. Robbins. So titled from the German foot soldiers term for this battle, "Rattenkrieg".

ISBN Number is 0-553-58135-X.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 05:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.242.230)

PAKRAT

PS
IF ANYONE MISSED MY POST ON INPUT FROM LEO SNIPERS, PLEASE GO BACK TO THE 2 MARCH AND READ. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU!!!
 

Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, Tx, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 05:47:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

i'm hearing steyr is in financial trouble so these rifles may get even cheaper... truly an interesting way to get into a quality versatile rifle and maybe have a collecors item too.

i do some long hikes in rough terrain so i'd like to ask about the new hyper-light titanium rifles such as the new reminton, anyone shot one yet?? how does the action feel? i have the ultralight weatherby in 30-06 and it just doesnt totally satisfy me, like some sacrifices went too far.

cheers, george
 

george hollister <georges@silcom.com>
los olivos , ca, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 05:57:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.71.222.52)

Second Rick's comments: Stay away from "Caught in the Act" (CIA) folks. They have the collective IQ of a door knob. Pitched a few jobs in South America that stank of the Langley dorkheads. I'd rather fight drunk crackers every night than work for those morons.
 
 

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 06:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.5.101)

You pay the extra money for Armalite though and you've got a lifetime warranty, however I seem to recall that the Armalites need modification to take a DIAS.

To the civlian buyer who's going out and looking for the easiest way to make use of a legally obtained and registered DIAS the Bushmaster lowers probably provide the least amount of headaches.

To the LEO purchasing agent, both companies offer LEO rifles that in many respects are very similar.

All the small parts on both rifles take mil-spec parts and are of standard size except for in the case of Armalite with regards to the funky carbine handguards.
 

I agree that Bushmaster and Armalite are the two top AR makers on the market. I have a hard time making the choice between the two actually, pay a little more for the top shelf Armalite or save a little bit of money and have a Bushmaster with just the slightest upper lower "shake" that one typically expects from an AR.
 

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 06:42:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

Andy and I watched the special last night on Discovery about the SEALS.

What ever happened to "quiet professionals"?

The whole show seemed to be grandstandting for the cameras in an effort to entertain and impress the viewer.

They've got some high speed gear and no one can fault their commitment or fitness but gimme a break on the TV shows.

The sniper part was too much. A .50 BMG rifle was used for the "Gee-Wizz" factor again.

What do I really know anyway?

Maybe this is the way an elite fighting force needs to be with the media in order to recruit more people and get more funding so they can buy all that high speed stuff.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 10:20:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.51)

Jeez Rick-ster... I donno'. We were disagreeing about everything, an' getting along just fine. I don't know why he's all of a sudden agreeing with me. If this keeps up, we could loose a good friendship, and my reputation would go in the trash :(
I just don't understand it... Bravo an me were talkin' about it the other day, cuz he's real concerned about it, too.

I mean... I like AR-50s and he likes Barrett 50s... I like green "Leafman" suits, he likes "Blonde Floozy" ghilli suits... we were getting along great.
You know that "Warm fuzzy, male bonding" psychobabble thingie???... we "male bonded" with WP grenades... we were great friends... but jeez, now I don't know...
His agreeing about 1911's.. well of course, everybody knows I was right.
But his remark about liking SA scopes, that has me really worried.

Bravo and me... we figured that it must be those residual "El Budda Ninja" ocean currents off Calliforna.

---

jim linos...
The reason that Remington put your action in the crusher is that you can't just convert an action from one bolt face to another. The rails on a 300gtonre much wider than the rails on 308 action... so there is no magazine box that will fit, plus a lotta other "little" things that all add up to a machanical disaster... Harris Gunworks should have know that, it's not rocket science.
If you wanted a 308 on a long action, then Harris Gunworks should have kept your action, and gotten you a Rem 270/30-06 action (there are tons of them around), and done you a swap + $50, and then built your stick...
I'll stand up for Remngton on this (... dogs and cats living together!).

---

Jon...
What rick-ster said!
What Bill0294 said!

My cool tee-shirt was real torn and dirty when they were through.

First requirment for a "Caught In the Act" contractor:
1 - Would you sell your mother... while you were still in her womb?

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 10:57:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.72)

I did catch the Mesh netting used for the Ghillie>>>>>Observation right? The sniper during the training op with hostage road escort looked like a .300WM when he chambered the round , NOT A 6.5mm thingee :-)

It was kinda hokie, but its made for the mindless masses and I felt really mindless last night.

I would love to have one of the DIB's for Bass fishing on the North Fork. Now that would totally ROCK! Hey Rick, Dave & Lito wanna go fishing? Hee-Hee
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
waiting on the MOTHER of all snow storms ;-) in BIG CITY BYGAWD, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 12:50:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.172)

"The sniper during the training op with hostage road escort looked like a .300WM when he chambered the round , NOT A 6.5mm thingee :-)"
 

yep I'm still MINDLESS should have read........

The sniper during the training op with hostage road escort looked like he chambered a round .300WM when READY TO ENGAGE , NOT A 6.5mm thingee :-)
 

AHHHHH-DUHHHHHHHHH !!!!

back to working on katas, at least I won't flub THAT!!!
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
AH DUH CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 13:18:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.36)

The pictures below demonstrate how to severely discount the price of your scope if you sell to me or some of the other roster hogs. This is an example of either inexperienced or incompetent workmanship with regard to scope mounting. This particular job came from a setup that had a 2 piece scope mount using leupold rings.

So class - ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT CHECKING MOUNT ALIGNMENT AND/OR LAPPING? I DIDN'T THINK SO....

Ding 1
Ding 2
Ding 3
Ding 4
This didn't hurt the scope as far as function, clarity, etc. It will find a happy home on one of my riffles.... but darnit... (mumble, mumble, mumble, stumble...)

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Cloudy and Gettin Ready, for a winter storm in Northern Va, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 16:09:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

This used to be the board for guys interested in shooting the most efficiently, from cover and/or concealment.

Pakrat, bless you, man, but I think if you need to convince your chain of command or city hall you need a sniper team, you probably don't. Not knocking Hempstead (between Texas A&M and Houston, right?) but how did you guys convince the PD and Hizzoner to even field a SWAT team?

I agree with Rick's and the majority's comments on this generation of ultra-heavy rifles. YFirst, it must be durable and consistently accurate (hey, doesn't the 700 VS with an M3LR look a lot like the original M40 with 3x9?). Yeah, the kids are strong and burly, but that doesn't count after the first week or longer of combat ops combined with fatigue, ruck humps, and contacts. Soldier's load is critical when you start adding all the other stuff you need to contend with -- loiter time, observation cycles, weather, food and water consumption, permissive and non-permissive Areas of Operations, etc. ad nauseum). Pulling your rifle box and spotting scope out of the mini-van in your fresh cammies does not take the effort of getting to FFP from Objective Rally Point, Mission Support Site, assembly area, and drop or landing zone.

Kev, on the SEALs, they're losing so many good people just plain ETS'ing (separating from service, for you civvies) that they HAVE to advertise. Even their Platoon Commanders (Navy Lieutenants and Ensigns) are getting bonus pay like aviators to stay in instead of leaving after their platoon hitches are up.

It's great working around (not with) SEALs. Usually they have so much neat, new, shiny Gucci kit that you can re-outfit as they drop and lose all that stuff.

Pete, the Rigid Hull Inflatables? I think the biggest vehicle in the Army SF inventory (not counting helicopters) is the Desert Humvee (DumbVee) and the Ranger Regiments's Land Rover 110. The Navy's got all different kinds of mini- and micro-subs, and boats of what seems at least a dozen shapes and sizes. No wonder Army SF can't afford new stuff. And the Air Force Special Operations stuff? Oy, vay!

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 16:28:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

At least that way those dings won't keep you up at night. Hah! Man, some guys just fall into good deals.
 

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 16:52:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Even with two piece bases, you will not get yucky shiney marks on your scopes if you lap the rings. I wish I would have sucked up and paid the extra bucks on one piece bases. But even with two piece, my Loopies will come of with the black still showing.
 

Wish I had a way to draw pictures on this deal I came up with last night on a drag cover. Of course it was 3 this morning so I probably couldn't have drawn too straight LOL.
 

Wish I could pick up some of that fancy SEAL stuff from those younguns getting out. Anybody have a line on some?
 

SPECIAL ALERT, SPECIAL ALERT!!!!!!
Set of those perty Swedish camo's that our Svedish visitors to SMTC were wearing up for auction on EBAY. Kinda pricey, but real perty! Auction ends in about 12 hours. Wish my fat ass would fit in the britches, my loss, your gain.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1116451781&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=983686773&indexURL=0&rd=1
 

Need to lose some poundage, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 16:59:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.171)

Yep-carried one for that role for years. Switched for a flattop M4 when they became available to us. Always Always always go for a flattop version if using optics to avoid line of sight/bullet strike errors at close range. In all fairness, a high speed red dot on the RAS would work well also for a looped upper.

Honestly, I switched for the lighter weight, shorter barrel,feed ramp, and the better handguards of the M4. I did it because I could at no cost to me, not because the A3 was in any was deficient.

As to your second question- maintain a minimum barrel length of 14.5 inches. The military got this number after extensive testing and it provides reliability lacking in the short barels while keeping the ballistics in terminal levels for a greater range. Remember the 5.56 works via velocity. (yeah-I know, gross oversimplification.)
I prefer the collapsable stock as I will have to deal with layering clothing and the fact thta this rifle is carried in addition to my .308. The entry guys also have to deal with heavy armor and this works better for them too. It however, will not give as good a cheekweld as the regular stock. If this weapon will be a quasi-sniper rifle, you "may" wish to keep the regular stock.
And remember-ATF gets involved when talking about barrels under 16 inches. Not to say anything bad, but they are a bureacracy (*read slow).
Colt is slow....I personally like Bushmasters as my second choice. Actually- the telephone people there really suck - write a letter.
I can tell you they are running full out on contracts for the FBI and marines and army as we speak. If you want to write contact me and I will get you a name.
Finally-IMHO- if the gun is going to be strictly assigned to a spotter-get a full size flat top (match barrel) for ballistics and overall realistic accuraccy potential. If you have to carry it with all your other gear-get a M4. Get the entry guys a M4 or similiar version.

Hope this helps-
Mike T

Mike T <riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 17:11:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Gosh darn it "lito", I didn't realize you were so sensitive. Heck, I apologise if that will make you feel better.
 

Bill R:

Now Bill I didn't say you were fibbing about the kid story, did I?
 

Dark Timber:

Truth is that here we have both dark timber and open country hunting. In the dark timber I carry a pip-squeak Savage .308 6 pound Scout sighted in for 200 yards. While out in open country I carry a heavier Rem 700 7mm Mag sighted in for 300 yards. I've found the 7mm mag too destructive of good meat up close and the .308 under powered at long range.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
Elk Country, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 17:55:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.16)

About two weeks ago I asked for feedback conerning a concept of mine which had to do with me trying out the idea of getting into long range shooting by first getting an old Swedish mi-surplus 65.x55 bolt action rifle and seeing how things go for 12 months.

I received some advice from a fellow with the handle "Bravo" and one other I can recall at this moment.

I thank you both for your words. I appreciate the help.

I appreciate this site and it had been helpful in other areas as well.

Keep up the good work gentlemen (and ladies).

If I ever come across a question/situation I can honestly answer, I will share my experience....so far that hasn't happened.

Thank-you,

Duncan
 

Duncan <bonzer@pacbell.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 18:34:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.195.122.189)

HA... you gotta be kidding... "Sensitive"... go through the archives... I'm about a "sensitive" as sandpaper.

I just don't waste my time discussing stuff with folks that can't stay focused on the topic, and have to change the topic to save face, when their "facts" fall on their face.

You want to compare shooting game with inner-city homicides... you gotta be kidding... get real.

BUuuuut... you wanna compare people/momicides to small cartridge "sniping" of game... OK.

This thread started with you doubting Hexa's comment about there being 50k elk killed by hunters in HIS country each year, by the somewhat small 6.5x55...
... a place that I will bet you have never been to. Hexa lives there, it's his country, but somehow YOU are the expert on Swedish Elk populations... you wanna 'splain that???
Reality check required here!

We go on... Charlie, Bruce N. Robinson, ALAN, myself, and others make comments about other small cartridges used for large animals, including 223, 22 Hornet, and 22RF.s used for shooting large game (Elk, Sea Lions, Deer, etc), by very skilled stalker hunters, at ranges measured in feet, not yards.
Now, nobody has "recomended" these cartridges, just passing comments.

That seamed to get you really upset, and you doubted it, doubted that there are 50k Elk killed in Hexa's country, doubted ALAN's comment about the 22-250, doubted that the Inuits do it regularly... in spite of comments by others, and about ten million National Geographic documentaries on Eskimo life styles.
You decide that the .270 (my favorite), is minimum... and you decide what "Real hunters" use!
Reality check required again!... I'll listen to Jack O'Connor on this stuff, but you haven't got the expertise.

So I comment that Hexa's country (and other northern countries) are lousy with Elk, and that it's common for Eskamo's to hunt them with really small cartriges...

"Par" comments that it's 102,000 Elk that are shot in Sweden, in 1999.
CDC comments about a Navajo he worked with who takes deer with a .223.

Now... somewhere here, you musta got your fingers stuck in a electric socket, cuz your logic goes up in smoke.
Falling flat on your face, you tried to save face, and you start talking about 22 Rf, and "RG" handguns in the inner city... and large handguns for self defense... WHAT??
How you make that illogical jump in this thread is beyond any logic I understand.

The hunters were taking their time, and picking the right circumstances.

Now, I can understand if the "UnDude" was in the woods, wearing his "Blonde Floozy" Ghillie suit, and it was rutting season, he might need a .375 H&H to keep the boy elks away, but other than that...
The Elk in question, were NOT attacking the hunters in question!

So I said that nobody was ADVOCATING ANYTHING... and people needed to use what they needed.

Now you try to save face by making a comment, suggesting that I'm avocating a $150 SKS as a sniper weapon???
Reality check required here... bigtime!!
I never said anything about sniper rifles, SKS's or any other such BS...
That's why your discussion is "silly"... you went from hunting, to inner-city-to an SKS sniper rifle, as the same "equals"... sorry, it doesn't fly... you were fishing for a way out, and didn't get the life saver you wanted.

But if you want to compare the skilled shooting of animals at close range, by skilled shooters for purpose (poaching, meat hunting etc), and take it to the human level, than consider this.

In the "inner-city", shootings are by unskilled butchers, usually over drug territories, love triangles, and other "messy" social conflicts.
BUT... in the world of the tru professional killer, whether by Mafia, or various government agencies (CIA, Masad etc), the... I repeat T-H-E prefered weapon, is the .22 rimfire short, standard velocity, hollow point, with can!

So... from your very sensitive friend... my 9 year old has better logic when he's trying to con me to stay up late on school nights... ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 19:26:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.106)

Is the ACOG reticle (with the different aiming points on the vertical crosshair) compatible with a M4 or do they make a special ACOG for M4s?

Thanks for the help guys.
Andy Mussack
out
Andy Mussack (Kevin's son) <scoutsniper15@yahoo.com>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 19:55:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.189)

I use a .338 Win. Wes uses a .35 Whelen improved. I can't speak for Wes, but I'll let you give me a lesson. Reply by e-mail.

Silly damned thread.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 20:00:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

On another note, has anybody used a Nesika action? The one in the latest issue of "Accurate Rifle" looks pretty nice.

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 20:06:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Lemme try to post something that will NOT start any fights:

Remember a while back when the possibility of milling a target using a Duplex reticle came up?

Garth Kendig at Leupold did some field work doing just that, and got some pretty tolerable results, using a fixed-power (4X) M8 scope, at least given the limitations of the low power.

He has now tried the 8X Mildot reticle in the same scope, and likes it better. Says it ranges nicely out to 400 yds. or so. Spacing of the dots is, of course, 2 mils center-to-center.

Anybody with an M8-4X Leupold that wants the versatility of a mildot reticle (hold-overs, wind leads, etc.) can contact Garth and have this retrofitted.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 20:37:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.243.115)

kelly
Kelly Mecham <Kellymecham@yahoo.com>
Blackfoot, Idaho, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 00:17:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.14.172.102) 

JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Hog Heaven, KY, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 00:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.229) 

Mark Smith: get bent.

CDC is a regular here, and a good contributor. We pick on eachother from time to time, but he's definately not said anything to indicate a "fragile ego", not in the times I've disagreed with him, the times we've agreed, or the times we've pounded the same ground.

As for giving lessons in manners, what kind of person walks into someones house and insults the host? That's exactly what you've done. We (the regulars) might disagree from time to time, but you start poking people in the eye for ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON, you'll find out how quickly and to what extent we stand together.

Oh, and for your information, this is SNIPERCOUNTRY. If you question how CDC shoots at range, don't. I question how well you shoot at range.

Now then, let's leave the eye poking out of this, it's a game you WILL NOT be able to finish.

And if you're looking for minimal meat destruction, may I suggest a mix of chlorox and ammonia? Or maybe a little cyanide. Give it (and me) a break.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The banana republic, now the occupied UN zone called the USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 00:33:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.110) 

Mine weights 13.5 lbs with Lupy 3.5x10x40 M3LR, badger, Check pack, and sling. Add a pound for bipod and ammo. Heck, My AR-10 T with a Rock barrel, Lupy, full 20 rounds, bipod and sling only weights 16 lbs.
 

Undude....... How are slings coming along, I must not have you correct Email as it keeps getting kicked back. Spring is getting near in the great Lakes( Snow almost gone and above Freezing Temps) No rush but wanted to make sure you are still alive and kicking.

Later

Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 01:16:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150) 

The so-called elk in europe are what we call moose. They are way easier to hunt than our elk. Why? Because in my experience they usually just stand there looking at the hunter instead of taking off immediately WFO like our elk do. (I have been within 50 yards of 3 moose so far today and only one took off, and she wasn't running, just walking. The other two didn't even bother getting up from their beds.) I was withing 150 yards of 17 mule deer as well.

lito, obviously your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. The relevance of my .22RF vs .223 analogy should have been clear. (You do know what an analogy is, right?) But since it wasn't, let me explain.

In both types of cases shooters were using underpowered, less than ideal calibers for the situations and targets they faced. Why did they use pip-squeak calibers then? Because that was all they had. Poor folks don't have a battery of expensive weapons like some of us do. So they have to use whatever guns they have, even if they are not in ideal calibers.

The point? Just because some people use under-powered guns to kill their game, or their enemies, that doesn't prove that under-powered calibers are "best" or even appropriate. All it proves is that some folks stuck with inappropriate caliber guns can still be successful.

As for the SKS analogy, the point was that if all it takes to be successful is exceptional stalking ability (which is what you were saying) and the gun and caliber doesn't make any difference, then why not save some bucks and go with an SKS?

But, as most of us know (including you) both the gun and the caliber do make a difference, a BIG difference.

As for my own personal hunting ability that you've questioned, I took my elk this past season at 314 yards from a hide at dawn with a 7mm mag. I also took a muley buck at 50 yards hunting the dark timber with my .308. Plus, my wife and I stalked to within 25-35 yards of two big bulls in the dark timber and she took one, a 6x6, with her 30.06.

My hunting buddy took his muley buck with my 7mm mag at 335 yards. I was with him and he decided to use my rifle instead of his 30-06 since it was sighted to hit dead on at 300.

How did you do this season?

The whole point to all of this was that I was a mite pissed with people suggesting that elk hunters should use pip-squeak .223's, 22-250's, and 30-30's for 600-800 pound elk. Anybody who suggests that doesn't know what he or she is talking about. Period.
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
Elk & Moose Country, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 01:23:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.16) 

I take umbrage at your comment of: "size of caliber is inversely proportional to the skill of the hunter".

As CDC said, I use a .35 Whelan Improved for my elk rifle, exclusively. Why? Because the 250 gr. bullet is a proven stopper. My M98 actioned custom rifle, with Kreiger barrel, will cut one ragged hole at 100 yards.

Since I hit 18 (I'll be 50 Monday) all my kills have been of the one shot variety. On only two occasions have I fired a second round, because the animal had not dropped yet. Inspection showed the bullet paths to be identical with the first round...both killing shots.

Please note that I use a large caliber medium velocity round "OUT OF RESPECT FOR THE ANIMAL". Not due to lack of skill.
Hell, I've passed marginal shots up because I couldn't guarantee placement. That, my friend, is the mark of a true sportsman.

If you see the area we hunt you'ld make the same choice. The last thing you want to do is watch a wounded bull Rooseveldt Elk disapear into Oregon's "Pacific Northwest Rain Forest". Probably never to be seen again.

I suggest you find another list to grace. Most of our members are professionals, men who have "seen the elephant", and don't appreciate or tolerate spurious posters.

Go piss in someone else's oatmeal...

Kind Regards,

Wes Howe
Willamette Small Arms Academy
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 01:42:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.17) 

I e-mailed Wilson Combat about sending in my BHP to get their O.D. Green finish put on. I got e-mail back saying,"We're not doing High Powers right now."

Maybe someone else knows what that means but I sure don't.

I'm looking for a good tuff finish and I thought that the O.D. by Wilson was attractive. What would you guys suggest?

Thanks,

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 02:15:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.201) 

I know what an "analogy" is... and I know what it isn't.

It isn't when you change the frame of a discussion, because you've lost track of your argument, and can't defend your original position.

There was no mention of any of the shooters being "poor folks" (how cute!), or how much they're guns cost.

If you want to make a point, then stay on the subject, or walk... you're sounding like a real jerk at this point, and saying that I have trouble reading, doesn't reflect on me... it reflects on you.

You nedd to get a grip on yor self, you're loosing your cool, and sounding like a kid.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 02:25:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.88) 

Flash
I'm not defending Lito he doesn't need help in that department. And I'm not criticizing your theory of big bore hunting or defense rounds. I believe myself in a light for caliber bullet for big game hunting. Faster bullets lightly constructed transfer energy so much more dramatically on game as compared to a heavy for caliber bullet which tends to penetrate and exit taking with it energy that it could have delivered to the target. This theory in my mind is logical and from the game I have taken using this theory those light bullets give me dramatic performance in the game field. I also hold the light for weight theory for two legged varmints as well in self defense ammunition. Bullets that fragment on impact do pack a wallop.
That is however a theory and I will in no way try to influence anyone on this forum or any other into adopting it.
Your personal preference for ammunition is just that your own. I like to hear personal preferences but I don't like having them shoved down my throat.
As for Lito not comprehending what he reads Don't put that dog in this fight. Take the time to go back in the archives way back. Read it, I've read the bulk of it two times and some of the articles dozens of times. There have been scribes that were full of wind and they disappear without making much noise. The patron remains.
Flash just agree to disagree.
Bummed out from the squabbling
JC
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Warming Under the F******G Collar, KY, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 02:52:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.169) 

Browning Balistic Mirage @ 65lbs pull, Beman Composite 90/110's, and Muzzy broad heads. 20 to 30 yards and no wasted meat. Tree stand is optional since who needs the weight.

Mark Smith ..... don't get your shorts in an uproar, but your comparison of a bow kill to a 22 kill on a bull Elk show you realyy don't understand the balistics of either one or the game you hunt. A 600+ grain arrow at 30 yards @ 300 FPS has alot more punch and momentum than a 22 at any range and speed. IE PENETRATION of MUSCLE and BONE! I have shot Elk @ over 400 yard with little ol'e .308 180 Nosler and they work just fine. I just find at this stage looking eye to eye with a bull or a buck the most fun. Now quit pissing everyone off with such nonsense. If you are in for a real challenge go hunt white Tails.

Wes is absolutely right in his assesment and you should listen to his wisdom.

Later

Titan
 

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 02:54:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150) 

SEALs - Hmmmm, first you must be a professional. :-) Remember guys, the Navy gets ships in the Billion Dollar ranges. A few million for gee whiz is nothing but a couple of bombs not dropped on Puerto Rico. Dave, glad you said around and not with!!! SHUDDER!!

‘Lito - How did you know about my .22 Woodsman?!

Bruce - Miling with a duplex, what type of crap is that!!! See we can argue about anything here man. :-) The FBI used the duplex as a quasi mil reticle by noting in their log where the duplex was in relation to a man and other objects at various distance. Also the duplex is of a set number of MOAs so can easily be computed as mils. Messed around with it while working with the FBI and it performed well to the normal engagement ranges of sniping or about 500 meters. Some got better and was able to range further accurately.

Undude - Where the heck are you? Get lost playing with the Marines?

Gooch - Where the heck are you, get lost in the hills of Bama?

Bravo - Actually the 5mm Mag was very popular for poaching. :-)

Doug - Doug zero the M3 turret for elevation at about 500, this will help even out the changes from gun ot gun and ammo to ammo. The turret is in 1 moa clicks and “normal comeups” are in .25 moa adjustments. This can get lost in the translation when you zero for elevatio too close.

Flash and Mark - End the fight, this is not snipe country and that is where this is going. Flash I recommend that you reread the posts as I believe you have misread some of them and took some the wrong way. Mark, your statement was just plain stupid.

Guess I will go find a beer and marvel at the silliness of it all!

Rick Out

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 03:04:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.82) 

Mr. Undude is around, I think he is in his basement stitched to his sewing machine......
 

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 03:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6) 

For a baked-on polymer in O.D. Green for your BHP, contact Alex Hamilton of 10-Ring Precision (www.tenring.com). Alex was President of the American Pistolsmith's Guild for 7 years, and does exemplary work at very fair prices. I believe he supplies the polymer coatings to Wilson's.

Alex set up my wife's 1911 and applied his polymer coating to it in '94, and it is just starting to show wear. It never stuttered during a week of training with COL Cooper, either.
 
 
 
 

Earl North <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
K.C., MO., USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 03:20:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 163.185.237.247) 

I scored that MK IV M3 6X with Mil-dot last week and it's inbound.

Do any of you have any experience with this particular scope? I'm assuming that it is identical to the M3 10X version. Can you confirm that and are the cams identical?

Want to learn as much as I can about it before it arrives. The M1 series I'm familiar with, but this whole "cam" thing is new to me.

This will be going on my M25 that Geoff Corn is building...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 03:32:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.4) 

I appreciate no one really cares, but isn't sniping - and related topics the reason we are here. It would seem with all the kids around we have adopted childish attitudes - and 'lito's spelling has gone all to hell:)

Mike T. Any names come to mind in people to deal with at Colt - they seem to enjoy not returning calls or faxes.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 03:41:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143) 

I am going to buy a nice, accurate .308 rifle; I have been leaning towards the PSS, but I notice that CDNN has what appears to be a pretty good deal on the Steyr's. The Steyr is a couple of bucks more than the Remington, but, money aside, which is the better rifle? I am aware that I may need to do trigger work and possibly bedding work to any of these guns, but aside from that, which is more accurate? Have any of you guys tried these side-by-side?

Also, any thoughts on the Swarovski 6X NATO scope that CDNN is offering with these rifles? If I was just going to buy a scope it would probably be a Leupold 3.5X10. Thanks for any insight anyone can offer!

Sam
Sam Carothers <s_c3@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 04:23:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.51.106.10) 

Bravo - my friend, glad to see you're still alive and PO'd!
 

My take on the recent spat of "Pissing Contests" that have graced this board - I am a newbie to the Roster and will be for a long, long time. I have no, nor make, any pretentions otherwise. When I first found SC I lurked around for a long time before getting up the nerve to ask a couple of questions regarding my impending purchase of a Remy 700P. Some of youse guys are really intimidating with the vast knowledge base that you possess - I should be so lucky!

I asked questions. I did not make any statements. I got some answers here on the DR and some emails, too. I appreciated everyones input and have made some new friends in the process. And I have learned a hell of a lot also. I have even had the audacity to offer some of my knowledge - meager as it is.

It seems that some recent arrivals have found a need to express their expertise, or lack of it, without regard to the fact that they are, in effect, guests in someone else's house. They have barged in, made themselves all comfy in the owner's big comfy chair and proceded to run the place like it was their house.

When their long held belief structures were violated by those with opposing viewpoints or viewpoints which they could not fathom, they have reacted by "pissing in the owner's oatmeal."

All of this is an attempt, as I see it, to break into the "pecking order" of SC. Maybe "pecking order" isn't the right term, but I think you understand what I am saying.

As with all things in nature, a natural weeding out process will eventually restore equilibrium and SC will continue to evolve, with new people and new ideas and a continued sense of "family."

And I don't care if you agree or disagree with me cause I'm over 50 and I don't give a rat's ass if you do or don't! (hint, hint, Wes!)

Off to pack for the range.

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 04:41:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.181) 

Big calibers/poor hunters???? .444 on a still hunted white tail at fifty yards or less..Must be doing something wrong!?

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Nearing day 60 and waiting for the big storm in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 05:53:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.94) 

Big calibers/poor hunters???? .444 on a still hunted white tail at fifty yards or less..Must be doing something wrong!?

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Nearing day 60 and waiting for the big storm in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 05:54:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.94) 

Big calibers/poor hunters???? .444 on a still hunted white tail at fifty yards or less..Must be doing something wrong!?

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Nearing day 60 and waiting for the big storm in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 05:54:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.94) 

Moe, I love ya, man. Ain't it great to be a grey-beard and speak your mind? I always wondered about the straight-talk (no sugar-coating) from my Gramps and Granny.

Kev, I'd just go with Bushmaster, otherwise J&T Distributing if you need genuine parts with the little horsey on the side (don't be surprised if Colt don't answer -- no wonder they have to keep getting Gummint contracts to stay alive).

Andy, bless you, kid. I wish all the juvies that wrote into the board had your sense and maturity, and a Pop who supervised his shooting. As for the other kids, I'm sure they ain't all bad, just the mouthy ones. I remind myself that the Small Arms Firing School at the National Matches is to teach citizens as young as 12 years old how to fire the M16A2 Service Rifle, and that kids can enlist at 17 with parental permission. I think the British Army still takes boy soldiers at 15? It's extremely rare, but exceptional when you have a young enlistee who has already earned the Distinguished Rifleman's Badge and the President's Hundred tab before he even knows how to salute and wear a uniform correctly.

One of my buds in the British Army enlisted at 17, and the regs then stated you had to be 18 to go to Northern Ireland so he had to stay behind. A smart color sergeant sent him off to shoot at the British National Matches at bisley, and the day he turned 18 he reported to his battalion a sharper rifleman.

Slugboy, the reason I asked about the Sniper's Badge was I sent two guys to Hong Kong (from Okinawa) as part of an exercise with the Duke of Wellington's (?) Battalion, along with the Gurkhas, and they ran them through the test and both qual'ed. Nice addition to a Yank uniform. I agree with too much stuff on the battle dress -- I prefer just a velcro-ed on US flag. If I'm ever scarfed up, when they ask why I've got unique kit on and no insignia I explain I'm a cook and I bought the neat stuff at the Army-Navy store, and to go boxing on the kid next to me with the maroon beret, in DPM wearing the chevrons, wings, DZ flash, brigade badge, etc. :)

If you can't screw yer buddy, who can you?

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 05:55:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13) 

Reverend Wes.... are there any more M3-6x scopes available? I've been trying to find one for quite a while with no luck. I've got a .308LTR just waiting for one. Please let me know if there is a posibility.

'lito..... don't you just hate it when someone picks just one sentence out of a whole paragraph, then totally ignores the sentence that follows (clarifying your position) and proceeds to try to "make his bones" using that purloined sentence alone? Sounds like what the liberal left media is so adept at doing. I've deceided that it just isn't worth trying to explain!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 06:18:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.44) 

Heck, I've been a member of the "over the edge" crew for awhile. Ask the red head I married! This turning 50 thing is OK. I have a twin sister and we figure since there was two of us we could divide by two and claim we are really only 25! Unfortunatley, my body is telling me otherwise!

As for tolerance for BS...my BS meter pegged out at about 40. Don't have time or inclination to put up with it!

My Grandfather once told me the we don't change with age. We just get "moreso"...

He was right.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 07:00:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.210) 

Rumors...
Word has it that one (un-named) Rosterfarian, who is known for his 20 pound 308, has fallen from Grace, canceled his order for the new ".408 Tac" rifle, and is collecting fired 50 cal BMG brass... this will put new meaning into the phrase "Towed"!! (Mine will run about 40-ish pounds with optics!)
Man, it's a fever, I'll tell you.
Just set up my new Hornady 50 press, and I have 700 pieces of brass to full length size... (I'd rather lap MK4 rings :((
 

Rick-ster...
I've heard that the TV add he did, has went and gone to the UnDude's head... and now he's crusing the Hollywood agent's offices, dressed in his "Blonde Floozy" ghillie suit, lookin' for more work on TeeVee ;)
... and mine was a High Standard, with a 1911 grip angle.
 

Nom de' Plume (aka Wes)...
Call Lupita on that (ask for Garth Kendig). I saw used MK4-M3 cams for sale at a local gun show and was going to get them, until I saw they were marked "For 6x M3". I would think that if the scope is 1 moa elevation, then they should be the same... but this caught my attention, and I passed on them.
Like you (and Moe)... My BS tolerance just plum wore out when I was about 40 and the "moreso" factor kicked in 110%... which means I musta been a real pain in the ass (with a coat of "nice") when I was young, and by the time I hit 40, all the "nice" had been wasted on assholes...
 

Rob...
It IS for the harris bipod. The bipod goes on the front one, and the sling goes on the back one... that way, you don't have the bipod diggin' into your shoulder, or hand.

JC...
I'm with Titan... how'd you get it up to 15 pounds... mine, just with scope, is only 12.5. Too much chilli and beer!!

ALAN...
Yup, I hate it! We've been hearin' that kind of spinning of discussions for 8 years... you think he's a De.. Dem.. Democr... Aw, you know, one of those?

Kevin (of the GWN)...
Spellin gone to hell??? It has went to hell a long time ago. When I make out a grocery list for me and the rugrat, by the time we get to the store, I haven't got the slightest idea what we're having for dinner, so I get take-out instead ;)
Would you PLEASE do me a favor, and you guys keep your raggety-assed, used SNOW to yourselves... this stuff could start a border war if it keeps up.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
The founders of America wanted a "Classless society", and some have taken it literally, in the class chalenged, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 12:21:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.62) 

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant , MS, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 13:25:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.21) 

AWESOME POST and quite refreshing after the latest battle of the brains. Its amazing what you can learn here from both the Masters and Patrons, in fact it damn well warms the heart.
And of course you notice, THEY don't fight likes kiddies with their parents......
 
 

Wes,
Congrats on FIVE-OH! Got me beat by ten years and all I hear is how much I bitch about things. ;-) Grumpy Old Men - HA!
 
 

T & Pat M,
I have got a rockin Kama kata going with Ramstein "Stripped" Curly Howard LOOOK OUT Nyuck Nyuck!!! Whhoop-Whoop!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 13:34:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.69) 

TenRing's polymer finish is applied to the heated metal, and is available in standard colors like black, O.D.(matte), O.D.(semi-gloss), gray, and orange, for standard prices. I believe it can be had in any color you want, if you'll pay extra for custom tinting. As for "sninach and sand" camo, I don't think Alex has quite figured out how to get it to spray out in stripes like my toothpaste :)
He is an industrial supplier for this stuff, and has fairly explicit descriptions of the coatings and processes in the "Coatings" section of his website (www.tenring.com).

I don't know how it would hold up on a rifle. My wife's leather holster hasn't been very hard on her TR-Coated 1911, but I can well believe Kydex would scour any painted finish. George Gardner used what I think he called a "teflon epoxy" paint on my rifle. I haven't done any stalks with it, but the occasional "Clunk!" and "Thwok!" noises it has made in the course of my expert handling of it at the range haven't left any visible marks.

I attended a BadLands course in October with a couple of Ardmore, Ok, PD fellows who had invisible rifles. They draped their Krylon-painted rifles with burlap shreads left over from their Ghillie construction project, and painted contrasting matte paint over the shreads. Sort of a Ghillie stencil. I think they used tan, black, and o.d.. Mostly o.d. Now that I think about it, it did look like spinach and sand, but moreeft tel. The camo probably cost $10 for both rifles, and was VERY effective. If it did get scratched or smudged, touchup would be cheap and simple. Hmm...
Earl North <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
K.C., Mo., USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 13:57:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 163.185.237.247) 

Go to http://www.beast-enterprises.com/ and look around. He does the baked on moly coat and appears to be reasonably priced, and his turnaround time seems reasonable. I haven't had anything done by him, but he's a regular poster to a couple of newsgroups I follow from time to time and seems like a nice enough guy.

Pat T
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 14:11:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.126.187.17) 

Yep. Every time.

"Sounds Like your meat shredded, I take it."

Large diameter Nosler partition at moderate velocity destroys very little meat. Much less than one of the calibers normally used for deer hunting. Little hole going in, little hole going out, critter deader than mercy now, now. One shot, no tracking.

"You do eat what you shoot?"

Right up to the bullet hole.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 14:16:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11) 

I have made Ghillies for riffles in the past (call them "Cammy Jammies") out of all kinds of stuff, and I think it is the bast way to go, plus you don't have to repaint your riffle every three months for the seasons changing.

The last M24 I made, is all black, but I have an H-S M24 stock I got from Pat (Mr HA!), and it has their "Sand & Spinach w/black spiderweb" on it (V-E-R-Y nice) and wanted the steel to have a matching "base" colour, but may just do the metal in black Teflon again, cuz I already got a few cans of black left.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
The founders of America wanted a "Classless society", and some have taken it literally, in the class chalenged, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 14:46:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.62) 

I read somewheres it costs nearly 15 times more to attract new customers than it takes to keep a happy customer. They may just be comfortable in their M1911 niche.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 17:04:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13) 

Hard to believe isn't it?

My recollection from watching a couple be refinished back when Master Rick was still young (& Wes too)is that they are kinda tricky to do around the slide scallops and the top of frame (not to mention the serial # and we KNOW who gets excited about that...)

Kevin, Did you try ROBAR???

Any of our resident Pro-Smiths have input to help out a Rosterfarian?
George? Jerry? JR?
 
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BYGAWD, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 17:24:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.178) 

Rocky Mountain Arms
http://www.bearcoat.com/

This is a Teflon-S finish available in lots of colors and some camo.
Lifetime warranty, with wear refinish @ $35.00 handling!
Great but expensive:-(
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 17:46:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.17) 

Sorry for the commercial, but I have found out about great gunsmiths through the roster and like to contribute when there might be value
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 17:56:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6) 

Sing it Patron Dave, those McMillans are the ticket! I've never had a wood stock that hasn't warped personally. My BEAUTIFUL walnut matching stock/handguard that I rubbed to perfection sits unmounted in the safe. Besides, I couldn't screw up a stick that pretty, those synthetics are UGLY.

Patron 'Lito: sand and spinach sounds good, almost like sand, light brown, and sage (my chosen desert camo) ;-) Although, for folks like me, you might ought to provide the "handicap" for us. You use a dayglow orange basecoat with neon color highlights. This way you'll fit in with punk bands HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 18:01:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.112) 

Pip squeak calibers:

On my 12th birthday I was given a Remington 870 Wingmaster shotgun, 20 gauge 3"chamber. It was to be my pheasant, duck, and goose gun, it was the only shotgun I owned. I was laughed out of the first goose pits I was in, 'you ain't gonna bring nothin' down with that little thing! What you got is a dove gun, you better save up for a 10ga if you wanna hunt geese.' I was plenty discouraged, figuring this old coot knew what he was talking about, and started heading for the road. Dad caught up to me halfway to the pickup and I told him what the old fart had said. He told me 'Get your butt back in that pit. I got you that 20ga to become a better shot, so pick a GOOD shot, and bring home birds. I don't much care for the taste of steel, so keep the BB's out of the breast.' I went back to the pits and shot all but 3 of the geese taken that day, including all of the 'experts'. I used that 20ga until I was 15, and I bet I'd taken more geese with that gun than most.

Shot placement is key. If I'd shot the geese in the breast or ass I wouldn't have taken anything home. I was taught where to hit and when to shoot. Different calibers have different capabilities and you have to adjust for different type bullets. If you used a Nosler ballistic tip bullet you may want to place your shot in a different location than if you were using Nosler Partitions.

Any Centerfire cartridge will bring down the largest of the game. It's up to the person behind the trigger to determine the situation and environment he is in before he pulls that trigger. I've unloaded a full magazine of 12ga slugs into a rabid skunk, about split the thing in 2, and it was still coming for me. Maybe I needed a grenade launcher for that situation. At the same time I used to wipe them out with my 22RF Marlin Bolt action.

I think there are too many 'experts' and not enough realists. There are too many that profess to know more than the next guy because they've read an article or book and hunt the same game with a different rifle because of it. 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mausers have killed most of the 2 and 4 legged game in Scandinavia, and they would do so here. It's a proven fact, not someone's misguided opinion.

We respect the patron 'Lito because he states the facts. He'll mix in his opinion but he bases it on what he knows, not what he feels, and he sticks to it. He'll let you know when your fingers are typing faster than your brain is, he's called BS on me a few times. Every time he does I walk away knowing he has taught me something, and I am grateful for the fact that he pays attention.
 

later
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 18:48:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.4)

Intersting posts, of late. On finishes, try the Brownells spray on coatings. Follow the directions and they come out fine. Are reasonably priced and can be re-applied whenever needed. What more do you need? Besides, you can change color at will.

I have Rogard on one rifle. It's OK, but a bit soft for my liking. Still, it seems to be wearing OK.

I really like the Black T on my chandler gun. If I'd have know they can do a "green" T I'd have had that done. Considering our foliage around here.

Mark, welcome back and hang tough. We REALLY are a nice bunch of guys!

'lito, you musta been a piece of work! On the other hand I'm enjoying getting "moreso". Since I work at politically correct Hewlett-Packard I make them a little crazy...and have fun doing it!

B-day card I got for my twin sister reads: "Sis, I know there have been times when I bugged you, teased you, pestered you, but on this special day I just wanted you to know...I PLAN TO CONTINUE"!

Semper Fi,

Wes
(The unrepentant...)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 19:27:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.18)

I did a Stainless 40-XB/R last year, and had to build a 50" long oven to take the barreled action, but it came out LIKE NEW FACTORY FINISH... looks as good as my M70 custom sharpshooter, and that puppy was about 3k.
You can get a manual to brake down the BHP... spray on de-greaser, spray on the green Teflon, and chuck it in the oven at 300 degrees...
no smells, no mess, no problems.
I was hesitant at first, and actually waited for 4 months with the stuff all ready to go, cuz of all the "warnings" I got, about how easy it is to screw up (a $1,500 barreled action)... all from "experts" that had never done it!

HA!... Double HA!
I finely took some double dark rum, and lime jooce, and went to it, and POOFie... first time winner. It is really that easy.
If you wanna do it, drop me an e-mail, and I'll talk you through it.
I have four more of my own, and two of my friends, that I'm doing soon.

Also... went to the Bearcoat site... and their line of colors JUST happens to be the very same colors available from Brownells... Hmmmm Ya' think?? I do!

BTW... word has it, YOU are going to be Andy's spotter/sherpa ;)... I think so ;))

JR...
you keep saying nice things like that, and my ugly sister will send you cookies (hand delivered ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
If I have a .177 cal pellet gun, at 600fps, am I under gunned, or over gunned for the damn CATS in the back yard... No, no... don't answewr that... just kidding, in the kitty littered, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 19:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)

OK, so how does one build a 50" oven? I was thinking (always dangerous) about one of those 3-burner hi-BTU rectangular propane camp stoves, and maybe a Brownells iron bluing tank. I just happen to have a S/S Custom Sharpshooter that's needin' a little color. Spring is just around the corner and she's lookin' a bit pale;-)

What do you think about my oven idea? Knowing you, you probably have a better one:-))
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 20:33:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.36)

Yup... exactly that.
If you are using the 300WM cam, it doesn't have a "1" for 100 yds, because it goes out to "12" (1200 yds).
If you zero it at 200, then put it on "2", but if you zero it at 100, then you have to set it on ONE CLICK BELOW "2".

Keep in mind... no matter what the booklet says, the 300WM cam is for the 190 Sierra MatchKing, at 2950 fps, and the numbers are in YARDS (I know it says "M" on the cam... but take my word on this one!)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Cleaning out the basement... where does it all COME FROM??? in Messy City, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 20:41:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)

Email me off list Eh?

Mike T
Mike T <riflemike@home.com>
USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 20:55:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

>>"'lito....... Brownells Teflon? Bearcoat Teflon? Hmmmm..."<<

Yup... they are using the same poopoo, and getting $275 to take yo' stick apart... well, they DO have the oven, and it does take time.

>OK, so how does one build a 50" oven?"<

I did the tank thing... I got a Brownells 50" iron bluing tank with cover.
I measured the centers of the two front burners on the kitchen stove, and drilled circles of 1/4" holes (six over each burner) that would match the two flame things.

Then I drilled a single hole in the top cover to put a "CANDY (not oven or turkey) thermometer down into it.
Drilled a 1/4 hole at each end, so I could put brass rods (from a cheap 3 pc brass gun cleaning kit) through each end, to "skewer" the barreled action, and suspend it in the middle.

Put it on the stove, and watched the thermometer... easy.
They say 350 for 20 minutes, or 300 for an hour... I did 300 for 2 hours, then turned off the flame, and let it cool down by itself.

The whole thing costs me about $80 bucks, including the candy thermometer (I get Brownells stuff at dealer)... and when I devide the cost of the oven over 7 guns, that's $12 a gun.

'lito
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Cleaning out the basement... where does it all COME FROM??? in Messy City, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 20:57:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)

I just hate to see "mystique" and "Voodoo" attributed to ordinary processes... as in "Oh Man, you can't do that, that's special, a PhD, and 20 years experence required!!!"... when it's not.

Because it's spray and bake, does not mean it's is any less quality... the world's best blueing can be "Dunk and Plunk"... and still be fit for a king's custom gun.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Still lookin' for my loading bench, in Messy City, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 21:39:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)

Groups? Groups!? I don't need no steenken groups! Couldn't have gotten a decent group even if I paid for it. Temp was 87 and humid and the wind and sand was blowing at 25 to 35 MPH anywhere from 10/2 o'clock to 8/4 o'clock. The benches were large picnic table thingies with those long bench seats with two shooters to a table. Not very stable and you were at your table mate's mercy - if he moved as you fired....well....

Excluding the obvious "oops's" I managed to keep most of the 100 rounds fired in a 9" circle at both ranges. Considering the conditions, I think this was pretty good. Next time I'm just going to go prone and forget the table - unless I can get one all to myself.

The Loopy M3LR is something else. Dial the range and you're on target. Of course, this was with known distances. I'm sure that UKD requires some major practice. Still, pretty impressive setup.

I even managed to wipe out the center of the target with my AR with iron sights at 200 yards from a sitting position - much to the chagrin of the guy with the scoped AR!

This long range stuff is contagious (yeah, yeah, I know it was ONLY 200 & 300 yards). I'm really looking forward to the 600 yard range I heard about!

And I GOTTA get a spotting scope. Those boolit holes are starting to get reeeeeeeeeeeeeally small.

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 22:04:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.101.172)

"Everytime I get into a pissing contest, my feet get wet!!!"

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 22:08:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

I've got a buddy with a spare Choate cheek piece. With a little judicious sanding it will fit the HS cheek piece. I'd like to drill a hole large enough to insert a threaded aluminum bushing and epoxy it in place. That Choate cheek piece will be removed prior to every cleaning, figured the bushing would hold up to frequent removal a lot better than just threading into the stock. Will drilling a 3/8 hole into the top of the stock damage it's integrity?

I can't be the only one to have thought of this idea. Seems like I read something in the Archives somewhere on it but I have no idea what month or year it was discussed.

Any comments or suggestions appreciated.

JC
 

JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Cheekweld Challenged, KY, USA - Sunday, March 04, 2001 at 23:04:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.171)

Anyone ('lito) know how to fill gouges and scratches on a AR and M203 reciever so they can be re-annodized without spots?

Mike T. - Thanks

Dean M. - Still Alive? Any report on the .408 CheyTac project guns?

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 00:08:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Anyone ('lito) know how to fill gouges and scratches on a AR and M203 reciever so they can be re-annodized without spots?

Mike T. - Thanks

Dean M. - Still Alive? Any report on the .408 CheyTac project guns?

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 00:08:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

No kiddin... it's here now :((
Border war about to start... wait 'til my 50 gets here, there'll be M48's flyin' north!!

Can't help you on the gouges... but I do know that a "Nafarious Rosterfairian" canceled his .408 Cheyenne Tactical in favor of a 50 BMG...

Dean is still alive and well (but as abrasive as always ;)), up on a 50 Cal site.
Too bad he got so much flack here... he's one smart puppy (though a little rough around the edges... not polished, cuth, and polite like me ;))

find him up at:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/wwwboard/

And e-mail him at:

[trigger@ecenet.com]

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
There is a formal decloration of WAR between the country Canadia, and 'lito's house!!... in white (again!!), USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 00:25:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.71)

Hopefully someone on AR15.com can come up w/ a solution to my scratch and dents

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 01:34:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

On the Brownell's teflon......it works really well, and as lito' said is really economical.
Only major drawback, that's really NOT so major I guess, is it will come off if subjected to strong solvents.
(i.e.).acetone, Sweets, Shooters choice MC7.
So, you will need to touch up the muzzle end occasionally if you get this stuff on it, and don't get it off muy pronto.
Of course, all you have to do is hit a shot of spray, and your back in the black, or whatever color you used.
Much cheaper than Robar, and doesn't CHip as easily....also, NO es shiney like Robar........if it get a sheen, hit it with some steel wool lightly, to dull er' back out.
For $ 20.00 a can, it's a best buy for SS bbls.

My .02's worth , fwiw.....

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 01:42:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.172)

"...Canada Customs and Revenue Agency would probably say cross border sniping is just like importing :) and try to take it off ya!"

HA! (as Pat would say)... let 'em try to catch them puppies as they fly over the border... M48's got about an once (plus) of tetryl and powdered zirconium, and a deceleration detonator... Double HA!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Full length sizin' 50 BMG cases really sucks... by the tyme I finish 700 cases, I'm make Arnold Swartzenegger look like PeeWee Herman :((( in the state of pure exaustion, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 01:50:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.71)

Actually have been thinking of getting a .50 but they cost of feeding would probably break me :o
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 01:57:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Well, I went to boot camp with 18 points, got 6 more on boot leave then legged when I got back from Okinawa, how's that? Of course, I knew how to salute and wear the uniform correctly also, but the USMC uniform is much simpler(and better looking) and having a father who was a airborne (st)Ranger wasn't all bad(Dad and I go back and forth with the USMC/Ranger thing. All in good fun.) Of course, I haven't made the hundred yet, but it's just a matter of time. '98, I went back to the 600 down five(5) points and proceeded to shoot a 6 at 6 the first shoot out of the gun because I used 75gn A-max dope while using 80gn SMK's. Then a couple windage eights(8) and nines(9) and it was all over with me finishing at 147th. Man, stupid hurts!

I E-mailed WILSON about their coating on a High Power about a year ago and they said they would do it. I never got around to it, got it hard chromed instead(which I really like) but I guess they have changed their procedures. BTW I don't have any problems with hard chrome in field handguns, my holster covers up most of the gun from view, and if I have it out the BG's probably already see me(hopefully not for long because that BHP shoots very well, even if it's a 9mm)

'Lito, what the heck is an M48? Some kind of submunition? Because the only M48's I remember are tanks from the 50's and 60's. Semper Fidelis....
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 02:36:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

Also would like information on the different stocks made for this rifle. I have found several links to web sites, but few if any reviews of them on this rifle. I want to stay away from the Choate due to it's weight and several of the reviews I have read.

Thanks for you time, and this web site rocks.
Glockster <glockster35@excite.com>
Vacaville, CA, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 03:05:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.81.69.133)

KenM...
I like "bright" guns for social purposes... I'll get flack for saying this, and I don't have any scientific evidence (except one incident), but I think the BG's see that bright .45 or BHP, and know...
1 - Immediately... You're not a cop, so WHO ARE YOU... you don't have the restraints of LE when it comes to shootings, you can let loose.
2 - You might be a BG too, and they don't know how Baaaaaad asssssed you are.

My social guns are a Bright Stainless Officers 45, a Bight Stainless 45 Gold Cup (for special occasions;), and a standard stainless 10mm Delta... all Colt's.

The M48 is the projo from the spotter guns that were co-axial with the 105mm recoiless rifles... it's a nearly 900 grain bullet with a bright yellow trace compound, and all explosive inside... no armor piercing crap or anything else... very fast detonator... all bang.
You can buy pulls, and reload them into 50 BMG cases :)))))))))
I will send you a picture of the bang.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 03:12:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.128)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 03:29:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.128)

I've got the Sharp Shooter's trigger which is quite decent -But with only normal adjustment I haven't been able to get the pull up toward 3.5 or so pounds. It's smooth and easily adjusted but light.

I'm with Pablito on shiny handguns for social work with an addition -the crowned bore on a .45 looks gigantic. :-)

Chris
(was afraid we were going to start seeing recipes here for a while there...)
Chris <cweinbeck@hotmail.com>
Westford, Massachusetts, uSA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 03:52:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.32.10.162)

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 04:23:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.202)

Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 04:50:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.14.92)

Two questions:

1) I'm looking for a place to shoot over 500m within reasonable driving distance (1-3 hours) from central PA. I've contacted the 1,000 yard club in Williamsport, but they shoot only 1,000, nothing less. The response was "if you can hit at 1,000, you can hit at less".
While probably correct, I consider that an over simplification. I want to learn ranging and wind estimation at all ranges to get 1st shot hits. Even though I'll probably never shoot anything but paper or steel over 400 yards. I might try the match shooting later, but can't afford the equipment contest right now.

2) Working up handloads for accuracy. While I think I have a pretty good system, I'm interested in other approaches.
I start by loading 5 rounds at 10% below max, increase by .5 grains, 5 more rounds, another .5 etc until max load or .5 over max.
Then I shoot 5 shot groups, in order of ascent, logging accuracy and checking for pressure signs and letting the barrel cool.
I then take the 2 or 3 most accurate groups, and work up from that in .1 grain increments trying to find the most accurate with the highest velocity.
Once I've got it down to 2 loads, I try 20 rounds of each to decide.

I'd appreciate your comments/advice.

Ut Fiat Libertas
Samal

(Still tunneling throught the snow to get to my reloading bench)
Samal <Knife_1@hotmail.com>
Pinchatooly, PA, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 06:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.91.146.47)

If you could choose what you want on a Sniper Class T Shirt what would you want on it ?

I have to make some for a Class in June. Please send me your pic´s or logo´s. If I choose that for the shirt I´ll send you a few as a thank you.

t

torsten <torsten@lasercon.de>
wishing I had listened to ´lito and kept my .50, in, germany - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 08:10:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.102)

Brownells finishes- I like the brownnells spray on finishes. I have used several of the products and have never been let down. I just tried the new Alumahide grey parkerized paint. Looks good and is holding up better then I expected. I quick fix, true but if you're always changing stuff it can get expensive to keep refinishing things.

And I sure am liking my LTR. nuff said
joe <spojoehpd@aol.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 12:13:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.215.153.169)

Rob
Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 13:58:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.22.213.151)

There was a group that shot "across the course" at the 1,000 yard club in Williamsport. Also membership is pretty cheap there with members being allowed use of the range during off times. It's about 3 hours drive for me to get down there. If there were a group of guys that wanted to get together say once a month to shoot sniper stuff I'm sure it could be arranged. They seem to be nice folks there and so long as the participants were all members I bet we could do it.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 14:19:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Bill Moore; The featherweight is a good choice. The Pro hunter is good but the creature features such as the rolling safety that comes on automatically takes some gettting used too. Accuracy is about 1moa or a little worse out of the box. It has that plastic feeling.

HOWA is a pretty good gun. OUt of the box it's one of the best.

Rick; we tested the Sheperd or finished it up you might say. With an eye to what you mentioned...we found your concerns well founded. You know it's something a once or twice a year hunter would make good use of on Elk and Deer up to about 500 yards. But the Mils are slower but a scad better at long distance and for wind doping as you pointed out. It's a good viable alternative for the Mathematically challenged or those that don't want to fool with dots and math. I'd really like to try a tactical match with one. The only complaints we had were ranging of small objects and figureing large wind doping. We had trouble with the curve out beyond 800 but that is probably a function of the loads we were shooting. We did have some good group performances. Well, I thought they were anyway. One inch (not 1moa) at 500 yards was the best on 5 shots. Others went up from that. Worst was 9" at 800 yards in a 20 mph cross wind.(cardboard maiden missed by the way) I judged the optics "good enough". That was a surprise to me from my preconception from reports I'd had. On the way in we saw a Coyote at about 600. He was honkin it and we'd already replace the Sheperd with the 4.5X14 Mil Dot. We just let him honk.
The Dots would have just been a SWAG due to his speed. He was gone before I could have gotten the cap off the turrets on the Leupy.
I could have used the dots but he didn't need the education.
I've been using the Sheperd for yotes on a .223 but past 500 it's dots are lost due to inaccuracy of placement but I may go back to the .223 with it for dogs.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 14:40:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 14:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.61)

Have been working up loads for a 700VS in 22-250 and using the incremental powder charge plan, which is pretty much standard procedure for most folks..Interesting Chronograph/ group size data below from testing Saturday {got a ride up to the bench and some help setting up]..IMR3031/ 55gr. Nosler ballistic tips..three loads; 33gr.,33.5gr.& 34gr. Bullets seated just touching lands..

Average vel. extreme spread std. deviation Group size[100yds]

3415fps 92.68 42.83 1.859"
3488 79.43 30.39 1.400"
3522 26.55 12.16 .444

Working my way towards 3600fps. Data is interesting so far and shows much promise. Interesting when looking at spread and deviation figures relative to group size..The project continues.

Comments or suggestions anyone?????
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Looking at a piss poor excuse for the storm of the century in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 15:19:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.31)

Thanks
Geoff <ggleaton@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 15:37:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.150.168.77)

'lito the way the Canadian $ is going we have to keep exporting snow to ya.
- My gun dealer won't bring in toys till I pay before hand (at least the dealer price on it) - why did you drop the .408 project?
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 16:03:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

The cataloges aren't helping.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 16:55:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

I have all the cams for the MK4-M3... and there are some frustrating errors...

1) .300WM(A-191)marked in M (but apparently tracks Yards)

It is for the A-191, (the 190SMK @ 2950) is in yards... it tracks VERY WELL... you see it, it dies!!

2) .308 M852 yards - 168gr Sierra BTHP @2610fps

Good cam!

3) .223 (SS109 - I'm told, haven't tried this on a rifle yet)@ 62.9gr @3280fps in yds as well

Not for the 62gr SS109... I have this cam, and it matches the 55 grain mil bullet, plus about any civilian 55 pointed BT... at 3250-ish but only goes to 500yds.

4) .30-06 -190gr in yds -

This "was" for some "unknown" bullet (not the 180SMK like the M3-LR scope), but this cam is THE choice if you want to shoot the 175SMK in a .308... shoot it at around 2675-ish, and range in YARDS.

(for the M3-LR, the '06 cam will match the 175 at 2700, in yards).

5) 7.62mm M118 M - this tracks M118SB/LR Fed GM2 etc. 175gr Sierra BTHP @2610fps in meters - this BDC is from the US Army
M3A and is apparentyl not availalble from Lupita

This one is a booger... It is no longer available... was discontinued some time back (even for the military), and it's unlikely to be re-issued.

I have it (marked "7.62mm NATO M118"), and it was designed for the 173 FMJBT... so it should track the new M118-LR, (both are the same BC/Velocity), but it's a dead ringer (in clicks.moa) for the M852 cam, and doesn't track either the M118, or M118-LR... which is probably why all the military guys say the cams SUCK, and can't be trusted...

I gotta say, as much as I love Lupita, and love M3 scopes, the Lupita guys have really screwed up this cam thing... they are mis-marked (says meters and is in yards), wrong bullet and/or velocity... all kinds of really stupid shit... when the cam does match the bullet/velocity, they are G-R-E-A-T, but when it doesn't, they are frustrating.
 

"... why did you drop the .408 project?"

I didn't!!... while I may be a Nefarious Rosterfairian, I'm not the only one... the OTHER Nefarious Rosterfairian had put a deposit on one, and canceled it... I spoke to him on the phone this weekend, and he hoarding 50 BMG brass ;))

He's a true convert (or is it Prevert??)

;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 17:34:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.9)

John
303-939-5207

John Kruse <stude59@uswest.net>
Broomfield, CO, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 18:54:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 162.18.75.75)

Pablito, why dont you write something Pete can get put up on the site about the cams. We all could benefit from it.

Bravo, how are you.
MikeMiller <Tacticall@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 19:14:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.28)

Welcome back (and you're ugly too!)

It's about time you took off that floozy suit, and came back to the folks that really care about you... the Rick-ster was really worried that Hollywood had see-duced you with their evil ways ;)

I will write up the cam thingie, but I'm waiting for Lupita to decide WTF they are doing about new (if any) cams, so I can write them up too, and make it a working summary of all the cams... I'll submit it to PS/TAR, with the condition that it can be posted here too (I need the money for 50 BMG stuffie;).

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 19:27:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)

Gettin' ready to "Spray-n-Bake" with my new 'junior refinisher' oven.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 20:01:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.196)

If you are zeroing the cam at 500, then you are using the long end of the cam, and it's "usable". but the cam isn't really tracking.
I'm not knocking this approach as a useful solution... but if a cam "tracks", then it tracks from 100 to the end of its range, and it hits within the useful ability of the riffle.

The practical part (particularly in Rick's business), is if you are going againsy "E"'s and "Dog"s (or their warm "equivalents ;)... at close range, the errors are smaller than the targets, so it all plays out in the wash.

But there is another consideration... any "system" has some errors in it, most are small. If you build a system so that in normal use, the errors are all in the center of the main "reference" then if (or AS) they shift, the effect on the overall function, will be small, and you can still be in the game...
... In engineering, it's called "being in the slot", which is to say... under "normal" conditions, the tool (in this case, your riffle) is working in the middle of the variables, and (under working conditions) are in the center of their range, and no "compensations" are required.

... but, if "the normal" already has errors that are skewed to one side of their limits, a little change will push the total off enough, that you aren't in the running anymore.

Now that was pretty heady, so I'll make it more practical.

You have a cam for your .308 using the M118-LR... and the cam/velocity/yadda is PERFECT... at your normal site you go out, laser the target, dial it EXACTLY, and punch it dead center... at any range to 1100 mtrs.

The atmospheric pressure changes... well, the whole system shifts, but just a little, and it's predictable... so you are still "good to go".
You don't even need a log book.

Temperature/humidity changes... (you went to Kuwait!)... it's predictable, and you're still good.

My rule (for a .308 that "in the slot") is "Hold one down for tropics, two up for artic at 1000, half that for 700, don't bother for 500".
(the "one" is moa)
Now... with that little diddy, and a "slotted" .308, I can shoot it anywhere in the world, without a log book... and be pretty effective... just worry about the wind (which will kill me every time ;).

But if the cam isn't right on, the velocity doesn't match the cam, I've compromised the zero by tweeking the whatchamacallit... I may be able to shoot very well... but I will LIVE in the log book, constantly looking up my "corrections for 675 yards, or hot humid days.

If I'm in a different part of the world, and loose (or can't use) the log book... then if I have to make even a chip shot at 500, I'll have my fingers crossed.

OK???

Whoa boy, there'll be incoming on this one ;))

'lito (running for the basement, hidin' from the poop storm that's coming ;)

Well... at least we're back to SNIPER COUNTRY!!!
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 21:04:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)

I'm told shims (which I could put between the mount and the rings) are no longer made by the one person who made them. I could have the lugs customized to provide the appropriate adjustment to get me in the ballpark. Any other ideas? I don't want to waste 35moa on the downside.

And why cannot the scope be prebased to point straight with 10moa down and 70moa up or some such thing?
Thomas Smailus <tom@rsip.lsu.edu>
Baton Rouge, LA, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 21:14:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.39.30.41)

You can lap the taper into the rings... I put 90 moa of taper into a pair of rings last year for a special project... it's not hard to do.

There IS a scope that has such a bias that you asked about... it's the MK4-M3... it has 10 down, and 65 up... designed for use without tapered bases.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 21:23:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)

Rob,
The Howa is not a bad gun for the price they shoot pretty decent and you can make a custom gun out of them also. Like someone said the stock is the weak point. The wood ones I have seen weigh a ton.

'lito,
I see were still our silver tounged, charming self(HA). I agree with the rest of the guys you need to do an article on the cams. You know more about them than Leupold does!! Would your oven work on a grill so a person could do it outside???

On painting gun barrels,
I had my 260 powder coated a flat black and I have been amazed at how well it has stood up. Its seems to be impervious to solvents and has not chipped, its even been taken off the gun and rechambered and there is still not marks on it!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 22:35:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Funny you should mention a "Cam" article by Lito........

Last time I asked him he fell off a cliff (just kidding)
 
 

Pat,
Rap?????? Me??????
HA! to the 10th POWER! This one is raw power with classical OKINAWAN kata - NO PIMPING- I.E. Bad To The Bone
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, by-gawd, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 22:56:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.53)

JC
JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Watching the Snow Fall In , KY, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 22:57:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.225)

M3 Cams: On my TBA M40A1 in 7.62x51, I am using the 30-06 cam. I'm getting 2700 fps with Black Hills 168g Moly, and the BDC numbers on the 30-06 cam match my trajectory almost exactly up to about 600 yds. 30-06 cam is definitely in yards, so I no longer worry about it.

www.premierreticles.com has the drop figures for all of the M3 cams in yards and meters. Have a look.
 
 

Lance M. Johnston <email@sgtlmj.com>
Michigan, USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 23:05:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.246.233.197)

Been playin with a Jen Gun;(FN-copy). What does anyone know about barrel length, breech opening time, Gas vents and accuracy on FN stuff?
I'm about to get figured why this don't shoot bettern it does.
Playing with possible solutions. Got any commento?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 23:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Does anyone have any experience with the corrected/repaired Leica LRF 800 rangefinder ? (The first batch last year was defect but whatabout the newer batches) How does it compare in use to Yardage Pro 1000 ? Any insights on the Yardage Compact/Nikon Compact 800 ?

The above mentioned are as far as I know the only relevant long range laser range finders available for less than $400.

Leica Geovids and Laser Technologies XLR/2K are out of my reach pricewise. Still would like to hear comments on the Laser Tech range finder. Of Geovid the only negative thing I have heard is that it is expensive. Then again you get Leica binoculars included in the price.

And yes, I do have a mil-dot reticle and mil-dot master (in meters) so I have a passive way of ranging. I would like to buy a laser so that I can verify what I have "milled" with the mil-dots. I would still like the unit to be water resistant if not waterproof.

Comments, anyone ?

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 23:25:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

Any insights ? I have heard maybe two favorable comments from owners and some 10-20 negative comments from other NXS owners.

I have an older AO NF and that scope is VERY good, although heavy and long. I do not mind the weight but the new NXS would be shorter and have more MOAs and be mechanically more robust. Still if it is of crappy quality I will not bother.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, March 05, 2001 at 23:30:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

Can someone tell me what the problems with the Leupold illuminated reticle systems are and why on earth they would put such a bad system on a seemingly good line of scopes? Now I'm rethinking my whole decision, if I cannot get one of the features that drew me to spend the extra $400 above the cost of the TASCO SS10x40.
Thomas Smailus <tom@rsip.lsu.edu>
Baton Rouge, LA, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 00:11:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.39.30.41)

Hexa, my brother is a policeman and he bought one of the Leica LRF800's from SWFA in Texas. He likes it a lot, and it sounds very nice for an eye-safe (civilian-standard) range finder. I just have to start rummaging around in the safe, closet, and garage for things to offer Pablito for his AN/GVS-6 "Eyeball Fryer."

Sir Wes, Happy half-century, young man! (Isn't that something like 350 dog-years? Hah! :)

Pablito, you gotta take some digitized video of those M48s and post 'em as MPEGs, dude! Those things were great fun from the 106 spotting rifles, and I can just imagine them from a bolt gun. You think Rod had the butt when guys were pinging the maidens with 190-grain 300 Win Mags? Yeeeee-HAH, cowboys!
Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 00:39:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Mr. Undude, see you got a spell away from the sewing mochine....
Please, ( don't let ME be responsible), for the start of ANother pistola fracas...BUT...what, and where do you get info on the Volstar???......never heard of such an animule.........
Would like to check em' out....if they are THAT WOW........

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 00:45:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.44)

I now own a single shot AR50(50calBMG)rifle. If anyone knows what type of scope I should put on it. And what type of bypod would work best for me. I'm new at this and would like some help from you.

Please send the info to my good friend LeMay. As I do not have a computer.

Jeff Over and Out
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

j
LeMay <M40A1SNIPER@att.net>
MI, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 00:49:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.87.105.17)

The tables at Premier Reticles are just notes on how many inches the cross hair moves at whatever range, if dialed to that number (as in "7")... they have nothing to do with whether the cam is accurately cut for the round it's marked for, or whether it tracks well...
For example:

For the M3-LR it says the 308/168/2600 cam is 47 moa (492.2") at 1000 yards, and 47 moa (538.3") at 1000 meters.

And...

For the MK4-M3 it says the 308/168/2600 cam is 43 moa (450.3") at 1000 yards, and 43 moa (492.4") at 1000 meters.

Now... how come the same round, at the same velocity, same gun same everything, is 4 moa (43") lower from the M3-LR, than from a MK4-M3...
Now, I know the MK4-M3 is a better scope, but NOT BETTER ENOUGH TO MAKE YOUR BULLETS SHOOT 43" HIGHER, with the same load???
;))

That's the problem that everybody is talking about... some of these cams are in error, and the charts (no matter where you get them) are in error also.

Don't believe everything you read, just because it comes from an otherwise reliable source... it's like the telephone game... everyone reads the catalogue, and passes it on, without questioning the discrepancies...

These charts at Premier are just notes on the inches that the reticle moves... Premier is not saying that they are accurate, or track the way you might think... nor or they vouching on the ballistic accuracy, or suitablilty of the cams... they are just noting the inches moved by the cam.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 01:03:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.39)

For scopes, look for something that has a lot of elevation if you want to "Reach out and...".
The MK4-M1 16x is one of the best for it... but there are lower priced scopes that may work, like the Tasco 10x, 16x, or 20x.
Make sure that it has enough eye relief, or you will see stars.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 01:13:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.39)

M3 LR Illuminated sucks for the following reasons:
- The "illuminated" reticle means that only a tiny red dot will lighten up on the reticle. You will have a aiming point but you can not use mil-dots for range estimation or hasty corrections for wind or elevation. For really arms length shooting this might be OK, but I do not see any point in that if the rifle is a bolt-action.

- The lousy illuminated reticle increases cost by over 100 dollars for almost nil gain in useability.

- The illumination system weakens the scope mechanically.

So not much gain, extra costs and weakened mechanical system equals a worse scope than the orginal. Personally I would pick the illuminted reticle IF it would mean that the whole reticle will be lighted.

If you want totally lighted reticles look at Nighforce scopes (not NXS models) or IOR Valdada scopes. Both have reticles that are illuminated in total. BTW the red reticel can be seen if the target is looking towards the shooter on the exact optical axel of the scope. I have tried it and at least at short range the reticle can be seen if it is too bright.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 02:58:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.120.198)

'lito:
 
 

If your sister is as ugly as I'm sure you are, send the cookies UPS :)
 
 

I think we are in need of the wisdom of Gooch, it's been awhile....
 
 

bye
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
foggy, sd, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 03:34:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.4)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 04:43:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

I have a little trouble with what you posted about published data on scopes (Leupold's) not being correct. It is not that I don't believe that it is not correct, it is that it isn't right.

If I am going to buy a scope from any company and pay between $600 and $1000 or more I expect a quality product. What you seem to be saying is that they are manufacturing a product that is supposed to a precision instrument but in fact it is not. This I don't understand. If they know the numbers with respect to movement of the cross hair then it should be a simple matter of doing the math as to bullet path at specific yardage and amount of movement (rotation of turret) necessary to correctly position the cross hair for that yardage. Other than the precision machining to produce the parts what is so difficult about this?

Don't get me wrong I know that Leupold produces a good product, but if they have this problem why is it that most people seem to think they walk on water when it comes to scope manufacturing.

Something else to ponder!
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 04:56:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.43.38)

Undude, thank you again kind sir!!!

Brav, where ARE you hangin???....
We'll see the results of this solitude.....he's gonna blow any time...
I jus feel it..(:

Michael, you out there, lurkin???....

Mr. Bill.....I'll TAKE the 1" @ 5.....any day.......(;

Two Shoes
Sandman time!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 05:06:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.181)

Rex
Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
Bay Area, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 05:31:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.198.191.2)

I would prefer the Geovid, but I am having a difficult justifying the additional $1,600 for a just a little more range and the great binos.

Thomas, I have 4 four US Optics scopes and all have the illuminated mildot reticles in them. The brightness control has 11 positions from barely
on to visible in daylight. The entire reticle glows, not just the center. I almost never use it, but if needed it is there.

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 05:43:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 05:54:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.14.96)

I need some help with something, or rather somebody.

I have come into contact with somebody who seems to think that effective ranges of the 50cal BMG extend out to as far as 4000 yards.

What's more typical and realistic here fellas? I know I should remember this sorta thing but since I have no 50 to play with I tend to filter this stuff out a bit because it doesn't apply to me, YET! I always thought the 50 BMG was an "anything the 300WinMag couldn't do" and from that point on it was good on out to around 2200 yards and maybe slightly further.

For argument's sake I want to allow the guy as much leeway as possible, let's go ahead and assume that the rifle being used is some kind of towed howitzer(thinking of Lito and the AR50) affair with the appropriate steps taken to give enough elevation back into the scope for attempting to shoot out that far. What would typical ball ammo and match ammo allow for realistically? Would it just be a S&G(sh*ts&giggles) type of affair? 4000 yards maybe if you're target shooting and to tell the guy to "get real" when considering what is the effective range?

This is one of those types who say something to the effect of "sure, I'm not talking about Marine sniper training hear, I'm talking about SEAL sniper school training."
 

Guys, I know I should leave the guy alone or ignore him but I just can't help it!

I feel like I've actually met the Mall Ninja!
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 07:03:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

Markwell,
That's quite a jump in performance, all across the board! Hope it doesn't start opening up again too soon. I never shot a 22-250 (yet). With my barrel burner (.264 WinMag), the hotter I load it, the tighter the groups get at 100 yds, down to 1 jagged hole. Unfortunately, the hot loads don't seem to improve the group at 300/400, and frequently is even worse. I'm guessing bullet stabilization is a problem, but it's only a guess. Probably need a faster twist.
With 59.0/IMR 4831 Amax 140's at 3150fps, it's a jagged hole at 100. At 300, it's 4.5", also flattened primers and couldn't re-use the brass.
With 54.7/IMR4831 Amax 140's at 2881fps, it's 1" at 100 and 2" at 300. Same day, same range, no wind.

Thanks to all for the help,
Samal
Ut Fiat Libertas

(How do you guys shoot .338 Mags prone? I tried it, I'm in pain).
Samal <Knife_1@hotmail.com>
Pinchatooly, PA, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 07:51:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.91.144.7)

Samal
Ut Fiat Libertas
Samal <Knife_1@hotmail.com>
Pinchatooly, PA, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 08:09:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.91.144.7)

DISCLAIMER: I am not an expert, nor will I ever claim to be, but I am about to give you the information I have always been told. For a strong argument's sake, please do not use it in your debate until you hear what the other gurus have to say ;-)
 

From everything I've heard/read about the .50BMG, mostly the M2 as Kevin referred to, it is accurate/effective out to 3000 yards. Yes it'd still be a killer at 4000 yards, but I take accuracy into consideration when I say "effective." Can't have one without the other in my book. Now, that is just what I have gathered. If patron 'lito, wes, undude, or any of the other hogs (or .50BMG shooters) on the roster want to blatantly disagree with me that's fine, but that is the info I've always recieved, and hopefully you can use it to enlighten your friend.
 

JR: (jr_rcsd)
Don't you ever check your email? :-) Talked to one of your colleagues on MSN messenger and she said she'd talk to you about it. Hope to talk to you soon.
 

--Seebs
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 08:24:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.26.77.44)

She ain't all THAT ugly... I mean, just because she tried to be a hooker when she was 24, and is still a virgin, shouldn't be held against her... her cookies are real good, and I'm sending her to H-S with my raggity Sand and Spinach stock, and askin' her to look up "JR" so he can take her to lunch... HA! to you, JR ;)

Byron...
I'll try to say this without sounding grumpy (which is hard, cuz my sister just called, and said she read the Roster, and is all hurt, and want's to come visit... it's not that I care that's her feelings are hurt, it's that she wants to come visit, that has me grumpy ;((

The tone of your post is that you think that because Leupold has a problem with some of their cams, they're some how "screwing" us, by not fixin' it... like they don't care. And that, somehow, they're "rippin' us off".

Well... they're NOT!!
First off... Leupold is an Optics company, not a ballistics company. They have enough problems doing the opto-machanical stuff. They are totally... T-O-T-A-L-L-Y dependent on the information provided by outsiders, to make these cams... and they have no way of checking it.
Because the M3 series of scopes are primarily used by the military, that's where they get most of the data. (and you know what that means!!)
The 308 cam on the M3-LR was spec'ed by the military, and Leupold didn't even know what round/bullet it was for... the made the scope samples, sent them to the military, and the military said "It's right on"... the military didn't tell Leupold that the cam was for the new (not yet disclosed) M118-LR sniper round... so when Leupold put the over runs of the M3-LR on the dealers shelves, they just ran with the old 308 numbers... When I first spoke the Leupold about the discripensies, they had no idea what was wrong, saying that the army loved it, so I didn't know what I was talking about... but Leupold thought that the military was still shooting the 168SMK, and had no idea that the military had switched, cuz NOBODY knew that the military had switched.
It's the same story with the 300WM cam... the figures were supplied for the S.E.A.L. A-191 load (the 190SMK@2950)... but Leupold was not told what load it was, just that it worked... and Leup thought it was the old 220 load.

This is how these things happen...

Second.
The science of small arms ballistics... ISN'T!!!
This is not the cut and dry science that you think it is... it's an ART, with lots of things that should be, but aren't.
When you plunk down your $19.95 for some program, don't think you are at the cutting edge for bullet flight, you're NOT... this will be a mathamatical approximation of where your bullet might be, if the moon is full, and the creek don't rise over the target butts.
The process of sending a metal pellet, the size of a cigarette filter, over a half a mile, and have it hit what you want, is filled with "IF's".

Small arms ballistics is very new, and still a matter of debate among the Academicians... there are still serious arguments about the flight behavior of rifle bullets. We bring some of this up here on SC's Roster, but most of the time it puts guys like you to sleep... you want your cheeseburger N-O-W, and you don't care how it works... so these threads don't last too long. But go back through the archives, and there are some very important discussions on bulet flight (that will give you nightmares ;).

Third.
most people that complain to a company like Leupld, haven't the slightest idea of what they're complaining about... they just say "It doesn't work", or "It's no good". When shooters complained about cams, they just said "it's no good" but didn't say (with numbers) what was wrong.
When I first started on this cam journey, it was for personal reasons... my M3-LR didn't track the 168 load.
When I spoke to Leupold, they had no idea what was wrong, and insisted that it must be right, because the military was happy.
It took a bit of time to figure that it was for a totally unrelated load, and a friend at Lake City slid me some hints as to what was going on.
As the light began to fall on this (for me, as well as them)... Leupold has be cautiously receptive to looking at this... after all, I don't work for them.
It started what has become a long journey into these little cams, both fascinating, and frustrating...

So... let me say this... Leupold, the old B&L, the old Unertl, Swarski, S&B, and a one or two others DO WALK ON WATER... these are companies that will not, knowingly sell poopie... they do their best, to make the best, that can be made at the time.

Leupold is not the sourse of the errors!

Forth (are you bored by now... I am!)
The bullet makers aren't sure of the flight arcs of their own bullets (with the exception of Sierra). They just guess at the BC, and then run a little program, and publish Voo-Doo arcs.

Sierra has been the only one that has pushed the science of small projectile ballistics foward... and it has been a very rough road for them, and they have spent a fortune on it. In the begining of their fourth edition, they make a profound appology for the mis-information they had published in the past, and explain where, and why it happened.
Sierra had to go to a multi-tiered ballistic program, to get the predictions to match empherical data... which is why there are now 5 separate BC's for some of their better match bullets... this is not a plug "n" play science.
So for Leupold, this is a very complex problem, with a lot of different sources of input, adding to the problem... and a lot of people working on the solution.

And you think that Leupold is selling defective scopes??? Gimme a break.

If you have trouble with this... I'm sorry.
If you don't want to pay $600-$1000 or more, for one of the best tactical scopes ever made... than that's fine, cuz there are a lot of other guys (including me) that will take it.

Byron... you want it easy. You want to throw money at a mail order catalog, and become an instant "Great Tactical Shooter"... but you don't want to do the homework.

When Bravo was having his raggity assed M25 built... he didn't throw money a the local smithy... he and I spent hours on the phone, going over chamber spec's, throat angles, bedding... he DID HIS HOMEWORK... that rifle is not just an outstanding rifle, it's his, he knows why every piece is there, he chose the maker of each piece.

You can't just buy a rifle, a scope, and a box of Fed match... and be a real player in this art... if it were that easy, there would be thousands of top shooters at the matches... but the guys that consistantly ring steel at 1000 are few and far between... cuz they earn it.

Sorry if I sound too grumpy... I just get tired of hearing guys that haven't tried to fix the system, bitch about it not being perfect.
"I WANT MY PERFECT GUN N-O-W"
Well... go read the roster archives, from the begining, and start understandng how complex this thing really is.
Sorry for the rant... I gotta get some coffee.
 

Uglygun...
Mall Ninja... I remember that one.
50 max range against what... mountians 6 miles ;)
Against "E" targets, I donno... maybe 1400-1500... it's not a bullet that is for small targets far away. It doesn't take more that a 300WM to take an enemy down at 1400, in terms of energy... it's the drop that limits the range, and the ability to hit.
The fifty is more better for large, tough/hard targets, that are far away... with this in mind, with a 50, if you can hit it, you can most probably break it ;)

Ben...
I don't disagree with you... this "effective range" poopie is out of hand, (my opinion!!).
My definition of effective range is this... you have a gun, you see a target... you can make the decission to shoot that target, and have (not counting wind) a 80% or better chance of effecting the target IN THE WAY YOU MEANT TO EFFECT IT!!!

If you flip a 50 round in the air at 30 degrees up, and some unlucky VC walks into it 5 mile a away, and rolls over... is the effective range of the 50 "5 miles" HA! I don't think so! "neva happen".
If it were true, then the effective range of the 22 rimfire would be 1.5 miles... the 30-06 would have a range of 3 miles, and that's BS. ;((

My "effective" range is the distance that I can shoot something, and be reasonably sure that it will break, "clank", or fall down.

If you see an enemy radar station at 2000, and laser it, wait for the wind to die, and deliberatly take it out... that is "effective range"... but that's only "my" opinion... not necessarly consistant with others, and not "The word".

My opinion... if you have no wind, and a well set up rifle, laser ranging... the effectove range of a 50 would be 1400 to 1500 on "E" targets (or warm equivelents), 2000 on large trucks... but this is based on what I've heard from many experenced shooters, including Tony, who probably shoots more 50BMG bolt gun rounds, than anyone else.
I'll tell you next year, what "my" experence is. ;))

Uh oh... I see my sister's car pullin' into the drive way... with tears on her cheeks, and a bunch of boxes of cookies... it's gonna be a BAD DAY ;((

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 13:10:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.26)

I don't. I use a slung sitting or standing. Use a Scope-Eez from Brownell's so it doesn't get a running start before it whacks you in the face. When you fire the pad compresses. Your head and the rifle recoil as a unit. Use a thick Kick-Eeez pad. Both pads are made of sorbothane. It makes shooting a .338 feel like tackling a fat guy.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 13:46:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

By the way, "real" bad guys aren't afraid of guns, especially not shiny ones. Which means that while your sister might scare them, merely flashing your shiny pistols probably won't.

School Shooting:

I'm glad to see the cops didn't wait outside this time. Maybe it will send young jerk-offs the right message when they prosecute this one as an adult for murder one.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 14:09:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.11)

I guess I threw a wrench into the discussion about the cams. Here's my experience.

When I put my rifle/scope together and started shooting with the 308M cam, I was a little unhappy that the BDC was SO far off. I did a little research and found that the cam was supposed to be marked in meters instead of yards. No prob. I took my exacto knife and cut a nice piece of masking tape to go around the turret, so I could mark my own BDC for the ranges/conditions I was shooting. Just recently, I was cleaning out my dragbag, when I found the rest of my cams. Out of curiousity, I took out the 30-06 cam and looked at the positions of the BDC. They matched my masking tape perfectly out to 600 yards! The 30-06 cam is now happily on my M40A1 and I blacked out the '30-06' with an El Marko. We gots lots o' trees hereabouts so 600 yards is about as far as I can stretch out with this thing. If I have the occasion to shoot farther, I'll register (I'm an old Redleg) at those ranges and see how the BDC matches up. Who knows, I might be back to the masking tape again. The BDC gets me close enough for a starting point, and since the scope has 1 MOA elevation adjustments anyway, there's going to be a little SWAG involved at longer ranges.

Seems like Leupold would sell a cam with a dull white stripe along the top that you could write on with an alcohol marker or something.
 

Lance M. Johnston <email@sgtlmj.com>
Meeshigun, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 14:09:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.59.129)

My sister is so ugly she got a part time job squatting on the roof of a Cathedral.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 14:11:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 14:13:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.26)

Now answer my damn question, would your oven, that you built, work outside on a grill or would this not be enough heat or consistant enough??? I am trying to figure a way of doing it outside. I am sure the wife wouldn't understand seeing her stove on the deck plugged into a big extension cord cooking gun barrels.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 14:25:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

... send Mrs Pat into town for a few hours, to get a new dress ;)).

The Sand and spinach stock you gave me, will finely wind up on the new 300WM M24, this spring... and stay there.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
It's truly amazing how many children have access to their parents computers, when the

Oh 'Lito...
Does your seestor know about the little number that you were caught with on the motorbike? Could be her seestor-in-law if things work out for you guys! Had to do it, had to do it!

A wind-blown, achey sinus, been outside all day, cold Bolt out!
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 22:01:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.119.17)

Thanks, drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 22:08:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.70.188.199)

A Shooter walks into the neighborhood pub, after the match, and orders a Bravo-brew.

"You see that match rifle over there?" he says to the bartender. "I built it with my own two hands! Did the glass bedding, the stock, and everything... shot a 4/10" group at 405 yards... But do they call me a great rifle builder??? NOoooooooo..."

He gulps down the Bravo-brew and orders another. "Ya' see that 50 BMG rifle on the table... I won the 50 cal match with it... But do they call me a good shooter... NOooooooo

"...but I bugger ONE sheepie..."

;))
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 22:22:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.24)

#1 Don't leave your stock sock in the drag bag in your basement where there are mice. Damn!

#2 Also, don't make your stock sock out of sunflower seeds, or anything else edible to little critters.

#3 Go to Wal-Mart and find camoflage patch material for the hole eaten in my drag bag by the critter trying to get at the sunflower seed in my stock sock.

#4 While at Wal-Mart, find some craft beads or something not edible for the next stock sock project.

End of Mental Note//
 
 
 

Lance M. Johnston <email@sgtlmj.com>
MI, USA - Tuesday, March 06, 2001 at 23:19:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.93.118.197)

If you give a guy an M3LR, and say it doesn't have ANY numbers engraved around the ring (just the hash marks), he can zero his rifle and get his normal 100, 200, or 300 yard (or wherever) zero, and that's HIS norm, or "slot" for that rifle barrel length and ammo (no matter a 20 inch SR-25, a 22-inch M25, a 24-inch M24/M40, or a 26-inch VS or PSS, nez pas?). On the top of the knob, paint a single, wide white "Hash" mark from center of knob to directly aft, and that's your zero (say for the sake of argument, for 200 yards). Now, just like with an M16 or M14, you know by tactile feel, 300 is 3 clicks, 400 is 4 more, 500 is ... etc (for YOUR rifle) from the "Slot" hash mark. Just like an iron-sighted service rifle, your norm (or "slot") is set, for your gun, your ammo, your range, your eyeball. And you didn't have to rely on Leupold.

I can take my NM M16A2 anywhere, and with 4 clicks from the bottom, be at 200 (with my ammo). Adjust for atmospherics (it's colder here in Casa Grande, Arizona today than last August on the line at Quantico, so I come down one click, which on my irons is a half-minute -- on the M3LR I'm not going to worry about it if I'm hoping for a top of shoulder to crotchline hit at say 300 yards).

That's the part of the equation when practiced experience and comes in, and you no longer have to open the logbook to be confident -- you've shot in all conditions from snow, to frosty Spring morning, to Utah high desert in the fall, or Mogadishu or Korea in the summer. You know that generally (your "slot"), 3 clicks up from your 200-yard "hash" or "slot" is generally your 300-yard impact, for a humanoid target (NOT bullseyes, because we're not fighting paper bad guys).

If you're going to use 1/4 minute click sights at longer ranges, then obviously the gunner needs to practice even more to know where his quarter-minute click slots are (hey, notice there aren't any 1,2,3 marks on M1s or B&Ls? Coincidence? Hmmmm.

I wonder if Leupold has considered just plain, un-engraved cam rings?
 

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 00:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Quickly... you can get completely blank MK4-M3 cams, and M3-LR cams with just hash marks every moa... I have them both.
Call Lupita, and ask for Garth Kendig.

About counting the clicks in the dark... I have gotten to the point where all my 308's (except one), are shooing at the same bullet at the same velocity (I "own" the munitions plant ;)... so the number of clicks (and other "polyvariates") are all the same... but on the B&L 10x Tac... with 145 moa times 4 clicks per moa... that's 580 clicks in the dark, and, like Pat, I have trouble counting change from the grocery store ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 00:31:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.72)

Someone mentioned the 5mm Mag earlier and I am glad to see It get a little taste of the recognition it deserves! Tell us more about it if you will.
 

What is a good 308. long range, rig recipe for a browning action, ANYONE?
 

Bravo well said about killing mice with a 458 mag or killing elephants by shooting them between the eyes with a 22. I know this was not you statement but you know the concept I am speaking of and the post that I speak of. I am back to armalite for a 20'' a2 instead of bushy cause of cost. Write me with some tips on armalites if you want to.
 

Do you think a glock 21 is a good choice over a 1911 variant ANYONE?
Colt haters feel free to chime in.

...Big will talkin about shootin but back to loggin for now, Hell can anyone justify selling 110 grand in machinery if no one will even offer 70 cause of the market? NOPE, back to work for me...
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
NC, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 00:33:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.93)

Guys, I had a bit of good luck today and I feel I gotta tell you about it!

Went down to the local minimart and threw the Super Lotto "quick picks" I had from last weekend's 89million dollar drawing and to my surprise I actually won something! I nailed 4 out of the 5 numbers plus the new "mega" number thing they have, in the morning I'm sending off my claim for the 1800 dollars they say I won!

Man, I was so close yet so far away from finally obtaining my dream of becoming a "Squirrel Farmer." If I had won I'd have done my best to get a couple hundred acres of lush grasslands so that I could set it up like a country club golf course, ofcourse I'd have an open invitation to all the Rosterfarians varminters who would want to come out to my place for a round of "Squirrel Golf."

The odds of winning the prize I won were approximately 1:200,000. There were only two other pay outs above mine, one was for the 5 out of 5 number winners and the one person who picked all 6 out of 6 and won 89million. Odds for the 5 out of 5 were about 1:1.2million and the 6 out of 6 odds are 1:41million. Like I said, so close but so far. I'll take what I can get.

It's hard to believe it! I actually won something! I actually won! Hell, in the past 6 years I've spent maybe 50 bucks total over the years when I play every now and then when the jackpot is up there above about 25million or so. Who'd a thunk I'd actually have won!

Okay, the odds are with me, it's time to walk out and get struck by a bolt of lighting! Common Murphy, don't screw with me, PLEASE!
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Sorry guys, no 50cal for me yet, gotta pay bills and fix my truck, Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 00:42:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.54.161)

It was worse before I had the Near 45 MOA base, because the "Heavy" 700 was 75 MOA from bottom for 200 yard zero (in the dark that's what, 300 1/4 minute clicks?). Now it's only two turrets (30 minutes, but still 120 clicks).

For my "slot" on a 26-inch 700 VS I'm using the 308 turret for hunting (165 Nosler Ballistic Tips) and the '06 turret for training (175 Match Kings).

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 00:49:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

CVDRIVER <Brownsilva@aol.com>
Windy & Cold, Florida, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 01:12:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.3.3)

CVDRIVER <Brownsilva@aol.com>
Windy & Cold, Florida, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 01:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.3.3)

Dave, why are you using different cartridges? If you train with "A" then hunt with "B" won't there be SOME difference in the ballistics - maybe even enough to throw you off a bit? Or is it a cost ($$) thing? Or is it....?

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Gett'n Nippy But NO Snow, FL, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 02:32:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.57)

"EVERYTHING YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT Loophole "CAMS" - LUBE, AND sheep modeled with multivariate statistics and differential equations"

by Paul Coburn

Hopefully comming soon, to Sniper Country
 

right 'Lito?

PLEASE!
PLEASE!
PLEASE!

I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 02:39:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.29)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 02:51:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

“Cams” (actually turret collars) for the Ultra was set for the M118NM, which is no longer made. The army replaced that round with the M118SB and the M852NM took its place as the accepted National Match round for service rifle comp. The M118SB round has some difference that does make for problems. While the “turret collar” will track nicely with the M118SB “standard”, the variance from LOT to LOT and other problems will cause a drift form the printed ranges at times, and is the reason for the “zero at 500 meters” advice. Also the turret for the M3 is in 1 moa adjustments and normal come-ups are in .25 moa adjustments. This can cause a compounding error when zeroed at short ranges. If you roll your own, you should get it to track dead on or as ‘Lito said in the slot. BUT, first you must know what the hell it is set to ballistically. (‘Lito, that was not a Navy round as in the infamous SEALs, the 190 has been played with for some time.) Secondly buy a blank and roll your own. BUT again, if you change parameters then the dam thing will NOT track. Remember that the collars are based on the “come ups” for that round ballistically and if the markings don’t match the round then the markings will never be “in the slot”. As an example the 190 grain collar will never match the 220 grain round, regardless of tweaking.

Leupold and the politically correct - Yes, before Carl Fetty was fired the Leupold crew was aghast over the fact tat their little scopes were to drill holes into human bodies and the Ultra was never to be sold publicly. The scopes got out and Fetty was fired. The rumor began that Leupold was to stop production except to keep the Army contract going and B&L tried to get in on the contract. They failed.

The science of ballistics is, as ‘Ltio stated, not. Sierra has only just now admitted that their tables for BC was wildly over stated. It was those tables that some of the collars were based. Opps!

Sinister - ALWAYS pay attention to the markings. Counting clicks and you may as well get a M1. As for your night scenario, put the scope on 350 and hold for your shot. Anything over 450 is problematical since you can’t read the wind and a 5 mph will take you off the target when you can’t read it or detect it. So I won’t need to count not se the markings. If I can go after a further target for harassment then count form the 350 realm, less clicks to confuse. If you are shooting during the day it is much easier to communicate to the shooter 7 minus one then to say up 24. Have him lose count, stress does that by the way, and then start over. Target gone! At night say hold waist, hold head, hold what ever.

50 Cals - What a headache giver. Glad I got over the desire to shoot the dam things. Max effective range to a human is probably 1200 meters, with a reasonable expectation of a hit under most circumstances. This is probably the hardest thing to get across to the higher ups. Max effective range is where you can reasonably expect to hit, not where you hit once in a while and only remember the hits and never the misses. Too many misses are forgotten and that miracle head shoot is remembered, thus the head shoot becomes the norm. BS. As far as vehicles then you are looking at taking out the purpose of the vehicle not just punching holes there in. In that case most critical nodes are about 24 inches to 36 inches depending on the vehicles reason for life, radio, radar, aircraft, etc. Since most vehicles have redundant nodes, then that means to take it out requires more that one shot or more than one sniper. To again expect a resonable expectation of success then you are back to 1400 to 1600 meters. Remember hitting the dam vehicle does not count, hitting the critical node is required. Too many again hit the vehicle and go “SEE! I can hit it at 2200 meters!” And I ask “So what, Explain what you hit and why you think it did any good.” Of course you could go to Camp Atterbury and shoot on the SEAL 2000 meter range and miss as much as they do. :-)

‘Lito - You and Dave keep counting and the BGs are going to keep running away form you. Counting from bottom on a target rifle, on the range is cool and I do it to make sure my iron sights are on. Count form the bottom on my scope in the field, never happen GI, unless I have questions as to my scope being knocked off zero and then I use my bore scope. Slot or no slot that is what those dam numbers are there for, not as a decoration and not to be ignored.

Come on guys, get off the range and back into the field a bit more!!

That was more than a few thoughts sorry guys.

Guess that counted as my rant for ‘Lito and Dave agreeing! :-)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 03:22:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.58)

I keep the M3LR set for 200 for deer hunting, danged near 95% of the time, and indeed use holdovers.

On the 700 with an M1-16X, same story (usually 200 BZO at night). My work rifle was set up with a SIMRAD, and with the 16X (way high magnification which can have some problems considering the SIMRAD tube line count) and an active IR source I can positively Identify Friend or Foe by facial features (spotter illuminating with M4 and an AN/PAQ-4).

Counting 1/4 minute clicks in the dark is close to ineffective, and way too slow (and hence why I know we've busted knuckleheads with fireflies and baby chemlights).

Two different tools in the golf bag -- one for field killing and one for urban work.

Moe, I don't shoot meat with a Match King. My personal philosophy. My 165 Ballistic Tips impact 1/2 minute low and 1/2 minute right in the same rifle at 200 when compared to a Fed 168 factory cartridge. An other different point of impact with a 165 Game King soft point (for bigger animals). None go same hole, so I wonder why some people wonder why the Leupold collar engravings aren't perfect for their combo.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 03:57:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Oh well!

Non speller Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 04:09:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.163)

A Republican and a Democrat were walking down the street when they
came to a homeless person. The Republican gave the homeless person his
business card and told him to come to his place of business for a
job.
He then took twenty dollars out of his pocket and gave it to the
homeless person. The Democrat was very impressed, and when they
came to another homeless person, he decided to help.
He walked over to the homeless person and gave him directions to the
welfare office. He then reached into the Republican's pocket and gave
the homeless person fifty dollars.
It took me years to figure out the real differences between
Democrats and Republicans; this little story says it all.
 

Steve_hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Cold, but not too burried, in the white stuff in South West PA, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 04:27:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.51)

Let's say our standard between all units is a gi-hugically large lot (all the same) of new M-118LR. I'd think you'd agree that everyone should get there own "Hand-rolled" collar fingerprinted for their unique rifle and their unique eyeball, and then shoot at the fixed yard lines (say, ideally, every 50 yards to how about 1100 to 1200 yards).

Now with an engraving pencil, we mark each individual operator's unique cam for that rifle, that scope, and that eyeball, based on that single, huge, homogenous ammo lot. Everyone's shots would track true for their unique rifle/ammo/collar.

I dunno -- is it Leupold's job to put in the instructions or shipping papers "The numbers engraved on the provided collars are for M-118 LR at sea level in standard conditions from a 24-inch barreled M24 with 1-11.25 twist"? The collar numbers still wouldn't necessarily jibe with a 20-inch SR-25 (Mark 11 Mod 0), an M-14, or a 25 or 26 inch commercial 700. If we kept that universal lot of M-118LR we could maybe standardize collars (SR-25; AR-10; M21/25; 700-26; etc.).

The scope erector and clicks do what they're supposed to. I think the shortfalls are in the operators who may not have the training or gumption to fire the data and know their own weapon/optic capabilities.

I take your scolding like a mouse. But I also know if I crank in for 400, for example, I know to go to the numbers but adjust for my load ("4" for 400, like you suggest, knowing my 1/4 corrections are say 1 1/4, 3 1/4, and 4 minutes, or go down five clicks from "5" but know I'm half a minute high).

Scratching my head.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 05:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Gerry
Gerry <gerryc@teleport.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 05:52:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.134.135)

I can say that I own a Glock 21 that I shoot an average of 1000 rounds through per month (each week I shoot 200 rounds of Speer Lawman and between 20 and 50 rounds of Speer Gold Dot). I have never (knock on wood) had a jam or misfire. I usually clean it after every 200 rounds, but have put as many as 400 rounds between cleanings. I have also fired an asortment of other ammo with no jams.

You can't go wrong with the "Tactical Tupperware".

KreativEye
KreativEye <kreativeye@yahoo.com>
Franklin, TN, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 06:40:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.2.119.6)

Myself I still prefer using 1/4 min. clicks. I've noticed that cams are to inconsistent because there are too many variables. Temperature and altitude being the most significant. At home I shoot at sea level, at SMTC the elevation is 2700 feet, in PA it's 1500 feet, in Colorado it's 9000 feet. Cam has to be re-zeroed every time, with 1/4 min clicks my zero is 3/4 min low in PA 1 1/4 min at SMTC, etc. This is all recorded in my log book so there are no suprises it you don't have the opportunity to rezero.

What would be nice is a wind cam. I've seen to many guys hesitate to crank enough windage on when required. Hell 1 or 2 minutes of adjustment doesn't cut it when 10 minutes are required. If the cam read 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 mph increments left or right for a full factor wind then you would be dead on if you called the wind right. You could half it for quartering winds and be on for a hit. For me it is easier to dump a round right or left if the windage knob has been rotated more than a revolution and I mentally did not reset it back to zero from the last shooting session. This is why I like 1/2 moa clicks on windage knobs. It requires less adjustments. With elevation I know to crank it down to the bottom then come up 2 1/2 moa to be at 100 yd zero. I have 12 moa in a full revolution so it's easy for me to add or subtract from there. It's just become muscle memory.

Larry you might want to check US Optics for a blank cam. They supply them with their scopes and I know they service and modify Luepold MK 4's.
 

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 12:32:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Is it just me or does anyone else generally dislike conventional stock grips and their angle?

I like to have plenty of clearance for my trigger finger so that it doesn't touch the stock or anything else; just trigger. I find that with conventional stock grip angles that if I grip the palm swell fully with my hand, and maintain a lot of surface contact with my fingers, I have to crank my wrist and trigger finger to inhuman angles in order to keep the trigger finger from touching the stock. This is not the greatest when you are trying to relax as much as possible.

I find myself wanting to use a vertical grip stock, which I will probably purchase soon for my PSS. My question is: Does anyone else experiences this? I can't imagine lots of other people *not* experiencing this problem -- seems like a basic human anatomy thing. If this is the case, that the majority of people find this to be a problem, why does the firearms industry continue to hold onto this antiquated traditional form?
Lugnut <m655321@mindspring.com>
GA, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 12:37:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.69.192.155)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 13:30:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

I'm off to Oklahoma to ring some steel and try to learn something.

You kids play nice while I'm away.

Tony,
Wind Cam....What a great idea!
I know I'm always reluctant to put in enough windage.
This would be a neat aftermarket opportunity for someone.
Hello, Premier are you listening?

Take care all...
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 14:45:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Mark, in my experience the Norinco 1911's are good quality guns. Maybe as good as Colt. The only problem I ever had was with wide-mouth JHP's hanging up on the lower front edge of the barrel chamber where the chamber and frame meet. A little polishing with a Dremel is all it takes to fix that. In my case, the situation was aggravated by trying to use improperly designed Wilson 8 round mags which cause bullets to tip downward during the feed cycle.

As for "lito", we have kissed and made up. It turns out we both have had the same number of wives and both have ugly sisters.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 16:07:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.14)

Does anyone have interest in a line of portable reactive steel targets? I am prototyping a selection of targets that are high-power and magnum capable, which do not bring tremendous weight to the assembly. These will consist of a heavy steel frame, and interchangeable targets in a variety of sizes that will serve all range needs. We also have a feature that virtually eliminates hazard from fragment splatter. Initial price estimates fall in the $65 to $75 realm, plus freight.

Again, this is a request for feedback. We are in the prototype phase, but expect to bring it to market this spring. This is merely one of a number of unusual products that will serve the shooting comunity. Please email your thoughts to me. I will be very appreciative for all perspectives.

Thanks & Semper Fi!

Roger
Roger Lays <r_lays@yahoo.com>
PA, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 17:22:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.229.115.112)

TITAN, send me an email with your phone number.
 

Rick,and Sinister completely agree on night shooting zeros. I also agree on the cam thing. I personally just use the cam and hold over under for changes. Good enough to rip a target in two out to 1000 yards. I used to be a 1/4 moa fan and still am for LE work but for field HOG use I am going to stay with one turn of the BDC/adjustment wheel out to 1000 yards. Rick will tell you guys that in the fog that is the only way to go because no matter how good you are you will forget and be off a turn at just the wrong time. It has happened to all of us. Dont get me wrong if I it was to shoot comps and hit X's the 1/4moa would be the scope always but for now the one turn route is my way for field HOG use.
 

Flash/Pablito, dressing up in womens clothing does not makle you a sister. Quit pretending to have human family.LOL

Gooch send me an email with your current address so the slings can be sent.
 

All I have sent Marius a few articles. I hope they will be put up in the next few days. These are on US Optics, Nightforce NXS.

I will be working on the polish of a Barrett 99 article. I can not stand to hear anymore of the towed 50 Armalite on here and need to show you guys to a great inexpensive 50. The Barrett 99!

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 17:23:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Thanks for your responses regarding the Norinco 1911 question.

Speaking of ugly sisters; mine isn't just ugly but she is on the dole as well. HA! It's just a matter of time before a rogue tornado shows up in NY to trash her trailer and she's gonna come cryin to me for someplace to bake her cookies. Double HA!! Hopefully I'll be on the range that day.

Semper Primus!
Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
Buried in this crappy white stuff that will certainly melt to S&!% soon and make my part of, Ny a swamp. Dry socks are a must in the slightly misguided, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 17:54:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.90.153)

I picked up on something very funny this morning. CNN showed George W. leaving HM-1. The marine at the front step saluted, GW returned it, and as he walked away, the marine executed a right face to stand facing GW's back...something that was missing in eight years of the Clinton presidency. The traditional Marine Corps mark of respect was rendered to the new president. That one goes back to the days in the rigging, when the marine orderly to the ship's captain always faced him, no matter his direction of movement, to be ready to receive an order. Who says that enlisted men can't hold back when they don't respect someone? ...And for eight years, they did. This pleases me greatly :-) The subtlety of it is elegant in it's simplicity. Clinton never knew the difference, yet it occurred in front of the whole world. Here's to the Marine Corps :-)

LeMay <M40A1SNIPER@att.net>
MI, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 18:11:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

I'd swear I read EXACTLY what you just wrote several days back on the roster.

did you forget to include quotes or did you write this and someone pro-actively read your mind?
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 19:35:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, Texas, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 19:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.218.245.6)

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@bellsouth.com>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 20:39:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.65.129)

The best subsonic .308 is made by Engel Ballistic Research.

This is the "Thumper" and comes in 180 grain and 220 grain configurations. Tested at Picatinny Arsenal, it blew the doors off the competition (Actually, the quote was: "made them look like floor sweepings").

I've personally shot this through several firearms and several members of this list have it for testing. It is fully capable of sub-moa groups in just about any properly designed tactical rifle and supressor.

It will not cycle the action of a semi-auto...

A number of spec ops folks have gone to this and been very pleased with the results.

Contact:
Engel Ballistic Research, Inc.
Ph: 512-360-5327
Fx: 512-360-2652

Whit Engel also produces subsonic .223 and a limited penetration 9MM Super Expander subsonic.

His stuff is top notch and he's a prince to deal with...believe he limits sales to case lots. May now be military and LE sales only, but can't confirm that...

All I can say is: "I got mine...:-)

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe
Willamette Small Arms Academy

P.S. You'll need a 1:10" twist to stabilize and get best accuracy.

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 21:19:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.53)

News release from the Arkansas Scientific Society - With Interest in Preserving Elitest Society.(ASS-WIPES)

After extensive research in human reproduction abnormalities, conducted in L.A..... (Lower Arkansas of course).
ASS-WIPES has identified an interesting mutation of the human genome,
caused by an extra nucleotide in their chromosome, in the shape of xx(+)xy This mutation, known as "the sniper-foo gene", has several behaviorial quirks associated with it:

A savant like capability in long range shooting.

A strange sexual attraction to the scent of Hoppes #9.

A third-grade level spelling capability.

A graduate-school level of mathmatical/science capability.

A desire to "blend in" to his/her suroundings.

A high level of independence and self reliance.

A strong atraction to one or more types of red boxes.

A high level of patience, so long as they get to shoot something at the end of the wait.

Anal retentive. Particularly in reguard to care/development of equipment.

Highly opinionated.

When asked if they thought their rifle was a phalic symbol, they usually reply "No, but it does kinda remind me of my..."

Hate bugs.

Have more respect for the animals they hunt, than for some people.

Like a wide variety of music/food/women/etc.

Like a limited variety of guns/optics/gear.

Have an interest in martial arts, fast cars, and air planes. particularly the one they just jumped out of:@

Like the good Jen.

Dislike ground burrowing rodents.(probably jealous of their digging prowess)

Spend too much time on this website!(my wife made me add that;)

If they like you, they give you a hard time. If they don't they ignore you.

A high degree of loyalty,honor,respect and all that good sh!t.

ALL PERSONS WHO COME IN CONTACT WITH THIS TYPE OF PERSON:
Consider yourself blessed, 'cause they are few and far between.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

iiii's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 21:21:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.111.29)

Could we setup a wind cam that makes sure you turn it in the correct direction :)

(ducking for incomming from TonyY - as he remembers who screwed up the team field fire in the 2000 Rendesvous).
 

R - means strike of the boolet hits right
L - means....

Ken :)
Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA (God Bless It!) - Wednesday, March 07, 2001 at 23:34:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

They both came with the same style box and cams/knobs.

Allan
Allan <falshooter42@yahoo.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 00:08:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.177.93.5)

Loper - You will need a real good spotting scope to see the wind changes and know that a ONE MPH wind will push your bullet about 11 inches. Read the wind and adjust the sights or hold (I would hold with the scope it is easier and faster), fire the shot and immediately go to the spotting scope and see if the wind is still doing what you saw when you doped the wind. If it is then you will get a good read on the effectiveness of you r wind call. If the wind is going faster then the impact should be down wind of your desired point of impact. If the wind is going slower then the round should be up wind of your desired POI. CDC is absolutely correct in that you NEVER ever chase spotters. You do not learn and you are dialing in dope for what the wind was doing in the past not what it is doing now. Do not get discouraged, recognize that some real “interesting things will happen” and that they occur less frequently as you gain experience. They NEVER go away though! Have fun and good luck. I know that you will enjoy the hell out of it if you do not let the little crap get in the way. :-)

Tony - The turret collars are numbered as a reference only and you can do the same with the collars you are doing now. Say you are zeroed and you are dead on at 600 at home, then you shoot the M3 collar at 6+1 and you are .25 moa high at PA and .25 low at SMTC which equates to 2 inches either way. Me no shoot that good to worry about 2” at 600, so don’t worry about 2 inches at that range. Windage cams would not work because a 5 mph wind at 200 and a 5 mph wind at 1000 is the difference of less than 1 moa and over 5 moa. An alternative is to compute your winds and hold for them in mils. Our students do this exclusively and get consistent hits to 800 meters without problems. An example for the 173/175 grain bunch is to use the wind speed times the range in hundreds and divide by ten. This gives you the moa shift then divide that by 3.5 for the mil shift. So a 6 mph wind at 600 would be 6x6/10=3.6/3.5=1mil. Shoot and you will hit center chest every dam time. Of course I have seen guys get upset because at 800 they are aiming at another guy’s target. Enjoy.

Oh NO - Undude, Dave, and me agreeing, that means that dogs and cats will soon be cohabiting! ‘Lito, don’t tell me you agree too!!!!!

Have fun guys and hold hard!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 00:13:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.29)

I know there are a lot of good books out there, but you should really publish your knowledge. You break it down to the basics in digestable chunks while keeping it all in perspective. "Me no shoot that good to worry about 2” at 600, so don’t worry about 2 inches at that range."

It is refreshing to be reminded that all the bench reacing is fun and cool, but that it is always better to go out and shoot rather than just polishing our brass!

Thanks for the great posts, but if you would get them in a book it would be a Sniper Country bestseller!!
 

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 00:41:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

...YOU are probobly one of those guys who shoots a big 14 point wide-spread buck and then just saws the antlers off like it was some cull-deer spike, Instead of mounting the head like the hard found trophy that it is...

Senior 'Lito: What are the best mounts to put under a win. stealth?
Are badgers all that needed at over 100$s?

Bravo give us another quality post please.
 

What happened to the disscussion on the rem 5mm mag? I have heard allot about them and even owned one at one time, I couldn't find any of the antique rimfire ammo for it, But I had a gun shop offer to convert it to centerfire with 200 cases to reload and dies and all for
$200. Wish I still had it, It had one of those once in a lifetime fits to the shoulder and a nice line of sight and super smooth crisp trigger. Someone post somemore info on this legendary gun I know that it was a tackdriver in its day. with super fast velocitys like that of the 17.rem. I might run into another rifle one day and want to be updated on its uses and merit.
 
 

Why doesn't the host create a chat room for us? It would settle the disputes quicker and speed up all information transactions, Good or bad.

Going to the woods to level good hunting environment any day now. But for the record I have never sold a single one of my own logs. I will let them produce good deer forage (Big White Oaks-Fit for veineer) till they rot! ! !
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 01:50:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.6)

... and I hate to tell you this, I agree with you on a few things.
+/- 2" at 600 is (IMNSHO), "inside the slot", and not worth compansating for.
And I agree that windage dials would be worthless... there are to many variables in the wind (even over a few seconds) to dial for... and there is no "simple wind" as in always "10mph crossing". I use the English (I think it's English) rule of a "full" wind is 10mph at 90 degrees, and = 1 moa per 100. Plus, I never remember to set the windage dial back, and throw the next shot in the dumpster... so I hold off with mildots.
... "Dogs and cats, living together"

UnDude-ski...
BARRETT 50! HA! You gotta be kiddin'!!! "AR-50 Towed" rules ;)
It's about time you got back to your senses and disagreed with me... all of us were begining to worry!!
You're OK now, and life is back to normal ;)

LeMay...
"Military courtesy change..........
The subtlety of it is elegant in it's simplicity. Clinton never knew the difference, yet it occurred in front of the whole world. Here's to the Marine Corps :-)"

SEMPER RIGHTIOUS!!

Allan...
There is NO civilian, and military model of the M3-LR... the first bunch (the "F" model) had the elevation turn CW to go to 1000, just like the Mk4-M3...
In Jan 1999, they changed them to the "F" model, to go the other way (CCW) to 1000, both military, and civilian... this was done for machining reasons, and was approved by the military before it was implimented. So there are two M3-LR scopes in existance... if you order replacement cams, be sure to tell them which way the cam turns.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 02:14:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.24)

Easy on that poachin' comment... some of my best friends have been poachers (and mooshiners;)

The Badger bases go ON TOP of the Win Stealth, not under it... and you will need Badger rings too... will run about $250 all together!

There was never a discussion on the 5mm Rem... just one sentence.
It was a cartridge that was a bad design, and bad business move on Rems part... I recall it lasted about 2 years... the cartridge sucked, was not accurate, and was no where as fast as the 17 Rem... it was the ballistic equivelent of the 22 rimfire mag... and couldn't compare with it.

Lastly... and this will surely come as a surprise... you ARE IN THE CHAT ROOM!!
This is the place, the ONLY place, there is no other place!
Why would we want to settle disputes... they are the meat of life ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 02:33:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.24)

Rick: Your getting way over my head with all this math. Hell talk about stress. I still struggle with that Range in hundreds divided by velocity divided by a constant stuff. At my age I have trouble remembering just the constants. That's why I ran my dope through my ballistic computer and came up with a reference chart for windage for my 308. Then it's just a matter of a little SWAG. Or better yet I use the 300wm with 190's. 10 mph wind = 1 MOA, 20 mph = 3 MOA, 30 mph = 5 MOA after 700 yds add a click or two and then a little SWAG. Over 30, come back another day or use the 50.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 12:08:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Wednesdays are my worst day... meant to say... "G" model, as in
"In Jan 1999, they changed them to the "G" model, to go the other way (CCW) to 1000, both military, and civilian..."
Sorry... exaustion rules on Wednesday nights!!

TonyY...
My B&L 10x Tac says...

-> LEFT

<- Your other LEFT

I got it from Ken ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 13:23:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.57)

Pablito, AR50? is that the one made of Zinc Alloy?LOL Seriously if you look at this from a tactical stand point the Barretts are a great way to go. The M99 is light at 23lbs and the Barrett M107 is 22lbs. The Barrett M82 weighs in less than the Armalite AR50 and for putting out rounds it kicks butt over the Armalite. Now the 99 will shoot atleast as well as the Armalite, cost is about the same and it weighs nearly half. I think this all steems from who made the weapons. Barrett makes Military Weapons and tends to think tactically. Armalite makes weapons for everyday guys so they tend to make weapons that work well, cost little and shoot OK. If they thought Tactically they would have taken 10-15lbs off the AR50. Now for the tactical choice, I love that Barrett M107. I can break it down and carry it in a pack. Get to my objective and hit a target at 1000 yards with no fuss or muss. That is a great system. Teh trick for any of you guys getting 50's is dont expect Military ammo to shoot worth a damm. It all sucks. Get some Arizonia Ammo BR stuff or load your own.

Damm, if I could save only 70,000 more pennies I could buy a Brook Field Mount. I guess I will just have to stick with my bolt guns.

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 14:32:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

"Pablito, AR50? is that the one made of Zinc Alloy?"

Nope... the way that Barrett cuts weight is to make their's out of "Zinc alloy" ;)

"The M99 is light at 23lbs and the Barrett M107 is 22lbs. The Barrett M82 weighs in less than the Armalite AR50 and for putting out rounds it kicks butt over the Armalite."

It sure does... your butt maybe, but not mine thank you... I've had "My butt kicked" by light weight 50's, no more!
I like to shoot too much, to call it a day after 10 or 15 rounds... when you are rubbin' in the linamint, I'll still be shooting.

"Now the 99 will shoot at least as well as the Armalite,"

NOT!!... and you know it. Bring your raggity assed M99 to Storm in July, or September ;))))) (That's a challenge, my friend!)

We'll send Rod out on a Snipe hunt, and really light up the slag pile ;)))

"... cost is about the same and it weighs nearly half. I think this all stems from who made the weapons. Barrett makes Military Weapons and tends to think tactically. Armalite makes weapons for everyday guys so they tend to make weapons that work well, cost little and shoot OK."

Well, they costs the same, have better (and much heavier "STEEL", not aluminum) receivers, heavier barrels, and much better muzzle breaks...

"If they thought Tactically they would have taken 10-15lbs off the AR50. Now for the tactical choice, I love that Barrett M107. I can
break it down and carry it in a pack. Get to my objective and hit a target at 1000 yards with no fuss or muss. That is a great system."

I'll give you, that for military "hit-n-Run", the lighter Barretts are well suited (of course if you hit the damn target the first time, you wouldn't have to run ;)... but the lighter 50BMGs do kick your butt (I have the tee-shirt), and I want to be able to settle in, and shoot comfortably... course finding a "sherpa" for the AR-50 is a bit harder ;)

The bolt Barretts are good riffles... but that 82A1 is no 3000 meter rifle, unless you mean against 8 story buildings... a good friend has one, and 3" at 100 yds is a good day at the range!
He doesn't shoot it anymore :((

"The trick for any of you guys getting 50's is don't expect Military ammo to shoot worth a damm. It all sucks. Get some Arizonia Ammo BR stuff or load your own."

... And you can TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!!!

What muzzle velocity do you get from the short barrel M99 with M8/API??

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 16:44:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.49)

Sorry, I forgot that we were all english Scolars and I must have really upset every one by not saying
Big Will <http://www.madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 17:59:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.93)

Sorry, I forgot that we were all english Scolars and I must have really upset every one by not saying
Big Will <madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 18:00:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.93)

Sorry, I forgot that we were all english Scolars and I must have really upset every one by not saying "what kind of mounts should I put under my scope"

Any way I don't expect to ever find a place to shoot over 400 yards, And I don't split wood with my rifles so I don't see the need in spending $200 for rock solid rings and mounts.

Would $40 leupold sts one piece or 2peice quick release or 2 piece fixed, be good compromises? If so tell me wich and why.
 

If I got the 2 piece set either fixed or quick release is there any way I could shim the back up to make a long range taper in the unlikely event I will get to do some real long range shooting and need the extra elevation?

Also does any one know about the leupold quick release set does it hold a zero? Can it take the same licks that a fixed mount can? I am set on the cheaper but still quality leupold mounts in whatever form. But am still looking for a compomise between them and badgers. Bolt, BRAVO, rickster, JC, Flash or even CDC. comback. Sound-off like ya gota pair!
Big Will <madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 18:01:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.93)

Take care
Andrew Stryker <strykforce@riflemen.net>
Waco, TX, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 18:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.184.2)

You spend a lotta time on your CB radio??? Comeback!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 18:33:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.49)

Pablito, yes the old times are back and as usual you are wrong.LOL Sorry my friend but Armalite has of this date never had a new idea. Just cheaper copies of other stuff for sale to the public that does not know better. How much research did you do into your first 50 before getting the Armalite? I know it will shoot well but it is not in the same class as a Barrett. By the way I dont have the light weight bbl M99 I have the 32" one. I wish I also had the lighter one but my 50 budget is dried up. The M82, M95 and M107 are my Barretts. I also have a McBros action Gardner built Navy Gun (Shoots extremely well). I had an AMAC and have shot an Armalite Towed but Barretts are my favorite. As to me dragging a 50 out to Storm not likely. We can meet half way in New Mexico and shoot at some greater distances if you like. Hell I will even shoot that M107 against it if you like.

For info Barrett is going to be making a version of the XM107 for civilians, no SLAP Chamber and calling it a M95 Military. If the no SLAP Chamber thing bothers you. I asked my M107 have a normal chamber. the SLAP Chamber is way long and unless you are shooting SLAP you lose accuracy with a SLAP Chamber.

Going down to US Optics 20 March and will have a complete report back on production of several scopes.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 18:46:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Ok, now if a bullet is traveling at over 4,000fps, is there any kind of bullet that can expand quickly enough to transfer energy to the target, or at that speed would it expansion be needed?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, totally unrelated questions...
the .224 BOZ according to the maufactuer can, with FMJ's, defeat most known types of body armor, and with tungsten carbide ap's defeat the armor of a bradly APC. they also say that it has roughly the same ballistics of the .223 . So does this mean the .223 can be considered an anti-armor wepon? if this 6" pistol that duplicates more or less a .223 can defeat anything but a tank, then why don't we see guys with 16" M-16's taking out APC's?
ok, if the .224 DOES penetrate the trauma plate on a vest, does it still have enough energy to kill or a the very least disable the target? all this and more
Alan cartwright <nitro_pb@hotmail.com>
water valey, MS, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 19:02:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.220.144.124)

Big Will: The QR leupold rings and base do keep zero provided you ensure they are seated correctly evreytime (It's easy to inadvertingly not seat them correctly). I use them on expensive hunting trips because I don't trust the airlines even with my rifles in a Pelican case. I take all my optics off and carry them with my carry on bag and this way I can also bring a spare scope and it's easy to change. But if possible I always check zero when I remount them. They've seem to have worked fine for me for years. Low crawling, running stress and field courses is a whole other ballgame, the Leupold system might not/probably would not hold up so why chance it. The one or two piece bases for the QR rings are very light and flimsey compared to a Picatiny rail and thick wide rings with heavier threaded screws.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 19:43:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Ben
Ben W <Shotcrete@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 19:59:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 156.153.255.118)

HA!... glad you're the same ol' self ;)

I did a fair amount of research, before ording the AR-50...
... I wouldn't say that I made a PhD thesis out of it, but looked hard for a while.
I had a mix of requirements... had to be a turn bolt rifle (no shell holder rifles), had to be comfortable to shoot (I've had the crap beat out of me with the last 50 I shot)... it had to be fairly accurate, but not benchrest, it had to be affordable (I've spent a fortune this year, and $7,000 to $10,000 rifles are out of the question!!), and I had to just "like it"... it had to say "Take me home, sailor".

Maybe not the best set of requirements, but they work for me...
Nothing "NEW"... new wasn't on my list... a turn bolt "Mouser" was what I wanted.
They shoot better than they should for the price, and mine will mostly eat M48s, M8s, and some A-Max... but I just need 3/4" to 1" (which is easy), and Repeatable... I got what I wanted.

Alan Cartwright...
It's probably fair to say that every cartridge ever made has been wild-catted. I would be sure that someone has tried to make a 308/50BMG.
The final velocity would be more like 4400 fps, but there are a few UNSURMOUNTABLE problems.
The plain vanilla 50BMG uses the slowest powders available on the commercial or Mil-surp markets... and the 308/50BMG would require powders about 3 times slower, and they don't exist.
There have been very high velocity "big" cartridges... the Germans had a 8mm/13.5mm (or something like that)... it was a 8mm bullet in a 13.5 anti-aircraft case. But it needed a tapered squeeze bore, with collapsing sabots... not accurate, it's intended range was 150 to 200 meters, to punch through 1.5" to 2" armor.

The barrel life would be about 200 to 300 rounds, and it would take that long to work up a load.
If you want fast in the .308 bore, try the 308-378... it's a screamer, with much better barrel life, about 600 to 800 rounds.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 20:04:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.20)

Is that a REAL sniper rifle... or a SEARS sniper rifle?

Seriously, you can't cheap-out and still call it a sniper rifle! Call it a medium range paper-puncher if you will - but a sniper rifle- NOT!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 20:05:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.23)

..."I don't mess with nothin but the best, FU@% the rest!"...

AFTER ALL IM LURKING HERE AT SNIPER COUNRY not some place where the Experts shoot 30-30s and 12 gauge slugs and other childs play.

Do you really think I should spring for badgers when the scope is a compromise: 4-12x40mm Vari-XII aj. Obj. 3/4 mildot

Would you put badgers under this scope or go ahead and get A markIV m3?
 

Where can one find A MARK IV M3 AT? online if possible, since it is not a sporting scope it is not offered in cabelas, Not that they are resonable on their optics or any thing for that matter.

I hate to add this so late, when the thread has died but, Marlins come in a brown card board box but, it is covered with RED writing.

Does it seem odd that the mr-7 and the m70 are almost Identicle?
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 20:08:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.68)

"Are you BSing me 'Lito or do you really expect me to buy some swack weaver crap? Do you want me to go get a BSA (airgun quality, nothing more) scope to put on it too?"

Well, man, you said $40 and I figured that at $35, it would leave you some left over for a chili dog, and coke!

"..."I don't mess with nothin but the best, FU@% the rest!".

Well, of that's true, good buddy, then you better get back up into the $250 for base and rings... and "FU@% the rest", cuz $35 or $40 doesn't get you anything near "The best".

"AFTER ALL IM LURKING HERE AT SNIPER COUNRY not some place where the Experts shoot 30-30s and 12 gauge slugs and other childs play."

Oh Yeah... right, I forgot... but you don't shoot at long range, so why worry?

"Do you really think I should spring for badgers when the scope is a compromise: 4-12x40mm Vari-XII aj. Obj. 3/4 mildot"

Why are you compromising???

"Would you put badgers under this scope or go ahead and get A markIV m3?"

I would get a MK4-M3... but if the price of a badger base got you upset, the the price of a MK4-M3 will downright give you indigestion... about $1100 (without mounts or rings)... so make it $1350, mounted.

"Where can one find A MARK IV M3 AT?"

You can find one "AT" www.swafa.com and www.premierreticles.com

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 20:24:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.20)

If you need affordable sloped rings and bases buy Nightforce tapered bases from Brownells (70 USD) and Leupold QRW rings (30-40 USD ?). These could be updated with Badger rings at a later date.

If you want to go even cheaper buy regular weawer-type non-sloped weaver style bases from Brownells or somebody else and buy the Signature Zee rings with offset inserts. You should be able to get whole set-up for around 80 dollars. And you would not not need to lap the rings.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 20:54:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

Lito - Hell man what’s an F or G between froends and agreeing parties to cats and dogs. The Sheepie are going to get jealous!

DAM the cats and dogs are fighting again!

Mike - Send me your recommendations for US Optics scopes as far as varible in the 2.5 to 14 range. Anywhere in that range, but with tactical in mind and with standard 3.5 to 10 being the mid norm baseline. How was that for a list of crap! Let me know email, hell, have US Optics mail it to me. Do you have my snail mail address?

Well heck, I thought that we had a coombyya situation arising and it dissipated before it fully formed. Rats. :-)

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 21:11:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.174)

Thanks.

Jim
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 21:18:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

If I buy a mark4 m3 scope wont I have the same problems with the cams and tracking that yall just got done disscussing yesterday and before that.

I am not even going to pretend to understand the science of ballistics
Im no rocket scientist (even though my dad was)

How will I get my scope/rifle to track with the cams in as simple a way as possible if I was to get the badger rings and mark 4 scope?

What load recipe would mimick the miliary one that the cam was desined for? I have some 308 cal. 168gr. SMKs coming and some 168gr. a-maxs too coming what can I do with these? can I expect to easily make a load that will track with the 308 cam that comes with the mark4 in my 26 inch barrel(BIG RED BOX RIFLE), Or is this asking too much? Bravo You can write with answers too if you want.
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 22:17:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.21)

SENIOR 'Lito:

No I don't talk allot on the CB but I do have a Nextel 2 way for work.

Tell your sis she can send me cookies ANY time cause times are hard in general. And they always were for loggers. A damn woman kept me away from my stands during gun season for deer and so my freezer's empty. But theres always shed hunting. But it doesn't put meat on the table.
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 22:30:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.21)

It is not a cam - cams raise lower the scope externally (like the ELCAN range dial) this is a BDC or as Master Rick said a turret collar (the best definition it would seem)

With your 26" bbl if you really want a BDC to track it then get out the chrono and see what it does. What I think everyone here is agreed on is that you should either find one that is ideal (for me the M118) or make your own based on the personal observations of your rounds.
If you want a Mk4 M3 then don't f*ck it up with crap mounts - go with the Badger base and rings.
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 22:38:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

There have been over four Versas broken in my area and all have gone back to the P-H
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 22:41:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Had a pair of QR Loopies on a 50 cal black powder one time. Thought it would be nice to be able to remove the scope so the rifle could take a shower with me after shooting nasty stuff. Well, they lasted exactly 11 rounds and fell apart.

Go with the Badgers first and don't look back.
 

Weather is getting pertier and will soon be time for me to break my cherry on the 1000 yard range at Hawk's Nest. Look out chicken house! Won't be competitive but would like to at least HIT the damn target once to say I did it. The guy clearing the trees on my hunting lease is slower than a one armed paper hanger. Can't get my range set up til he gets out of the way.
 

Wishing it was spring time, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 22:42:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.222)

my openion
Bud <offah@hotmail.com>
Greens Fork , In., USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 22:51:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.106.153.61)

http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=1059893

Thanks for looking,
Steve

Steve <grasscrawler@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 23:13:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.255.230.15)

I realize this is a flagerant use/abuse of bandwidth, but I thought it was VERY curious reading when I got it in my email. My apologies to the bandwidth police.

It's a very CLINTON = CRIMINAL type thing and here in NY the legacy continues. NY, spring board to the Presidency! Hey where is Hillary anyway, oops, Thats right, immediately after getting elected she moved to DC. Hmm now I get it...

HERE YA GO! I don't know where it came from or who sent it, just thought youz guyz would like it. It's called: YA CAN'T PARDON THEM IF THEY ARE DEAD.

*********People Clinton didn't have to Pardon*******

James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an
apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key
witness in Ken Starr's investigation.

Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997
at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.

Vince Foster - Former white House councilor, and colleague of
Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.

Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported
to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the
investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

C. Victor Raiser II - & - Montgomery Raiser, Major players in the
Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director
found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in
the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed
Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton Groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in
Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside
Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he
had a "Black Book" of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging
suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson, ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was
found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy
Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead In June, 1994 of a gunshot wound (also ruled a suicide) at the grave site of his fiancee.

Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton's friend Dan Lassater, died by
jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was
related to the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.

Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was
Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of
the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978
until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena
Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport
with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution
TrustCorp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron
Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996.
Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John
Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small
plane crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health
Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, death was no
accident

Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill
Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead After his car had hit a utility pole.

Stanley Huggins - Investigated Madison Guarantee. His death was a
purported suicide and his report was never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1,
1994 when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case.
Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

***THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:**

Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbedback times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to "natural causes".

Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - A suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.
 

*****THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:*****

Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan

HOGS........I did some diggin prior to sending this and the half dozen or so of these people I randomly selected I was able to find info that was supportive of the key remarks associated.

Kinda weird Huh?

Semper Primus!

Mark <Beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
Probably residing on a "list" now, SO HA! I live in , NY. The rest the "list" makers gotta figure out for themselves. Like I ain't already, considering the way things are in the , USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 23:19:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.113.115)

I counted 47 people on the above list. That must have been the Clinton administrations way of creating jobs. Don't create new ones just rehire through attrition...........or sumptin like dat!

Semper Primus!
Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
NY, NY, NY, NY, NY, NY, NY, NY, NY,NY, Thats in the USA Incase you're looking for Hillary. We're the people who you're supposed to be representing down there in DC. - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 23:29:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.113.115)

As for scope mounts less than Badgers, I've had good luck with Warne maxima steel bases and Weaver Signature Zee rings with offset inserts as needed. These are what I'm putting on all my hunting rifles. You don't get the 20MOA taper, but if you're only shooting 400yds, what's the problem?

The plasma thing. Well, I'm surprised to hear about that on this board. The current setup is called Combustion Augmented Plasma(CAP) and it uses a lot of juice to ignite high energy propellants that you can't ignite with normal priming. Stuff that uses metallic fuels and other strange stuff that's over my paygrade. The plasma/water/steam thing is way down the road. And it does use many megajoules of energy, but it allows a softer launch than nitrocellulose based propellants, and so it's of interest to the arty crowd. They want to launch smart rounds with self forging fragments(explosively forged projectiles) to kill tanks and stuff. The electronics don't like lots of G's. That's about all I can tell you. Semper Fidelis...Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, March 08, 2001 at 23:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

Kevin (of the GWN)
Cam is accepted slang for BDC/turret collor... and would you please keep your Steenkin' snow ;((

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 00:00:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)

'lito Comments? Or bored of explaining if so I understand.

Parker-Hale never heard of them Where can they be found?
what about harris's

Is federal nickel brass bad? Bravo told me that the inside of the neck is real abrasive and to brush them out before loading. I just use them cause they stay shiny and it beats tumbling regular brass with a tumbler wich I don't have. And I thought that the nickel plated ones might be tougher and last through many more loadings.

Also does any one know the right way to turn necks? Share your expirience with us I HEARD that it is a good group tightening tecnique if done right.
 

Once again Thank You BRAVO for taking the time to answer ALL my questions!

SENIOR 'Lito you been a real help too! As well as anyone unmentioned
Big Will <madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 00:01:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.21)

I have to disagree. The SLAP chamber can significantly detract from accuracy. It did in my rifle (Barrett M82).

This rifle was re-barreled by the factory in November of 99, replacing the SLAP-chambered barrel with a later one with a much tighter chamber, and it cut my groups in half.

Last August I was shooting 1.5 MOA (against Undude's 1.0 MOA in an XM107) at 600 yds., using identical ammo.

9" group at 600 out of a semi-auto .50 is something that I hadn't been able to do before (remember, this is in NM wind, too), so I was pretty pleased.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 00:18:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.243.254)

Now that I re-read your post, it is my misunderstanding! Yes, the SLAP chamber is not conducive to tack-driving accuracy, and yes, the brakes will tear up sabots, with resultant negative effects on the projectiles.

Matter of fact, Barrett material (civilian Owner's Manual, don't know about military manual) warns against shooting saboted ammo for that very reason (as well as the possibility of damage to the brake).

Two things I omitted from the earlier post:

1. Yes, those were 5 rd. grps.

2. Many thanks to Barry, who set up my rebuild, and Tony, who did it, at the Barret factory. What a job!!!

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 01:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.149)

Mike T. COLT info?
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 01:40:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Sunburned at the RANGE!!! I don't friggin' believe it... and I got slush/mud/an snow up to my knees!

That does it... war is oh-fish-ally declared between Canadia, and 'lito's house!

Youz guys are definitly BUMZ!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 01:47:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)

After very little use, said scope's windage and elevation fail. I'm guessing the erector system broke as adjusting would fail to cause any movement of the crosshair. This is after said manufacturer's scope rings failed miserably. They deformed easily and kept loosening up. After receiving the scope recently after the windage/elevation thing was fixed I found another problem. While tilting the scope up to the sky to adjust the eyepiece some threading comes sliding down out of the scope. Hmmmmmmm ... so I sent it back. When I inquired about the manufacturer paying for the shipping I was informed that they just don't do that. After all they're fixing the scope for free and shipping it back ... Well, I should've thought of that, right? I mean fixing a scope that broke because of the design or build is quite a nice thing to do LOL
 

Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
Bay Area, CA, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 01:52:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.198.191.2)

Can someone give me the holdoff's for 168gr BTHP, 2600 fps. With a 100yd zero.

Thanks LeMay OUT
LeMay <M40A1SNIPER@att.net>
MI, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 01:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.87.105.179)

Open it up and read the following: "1 - Try to avoid basic questions, like which is better Winchester, or Remington... or 'how to clean your new rifle? This is an advanced site, for skilled shooters, or
those who want to become skilled shooters. If you are a beginner, read, learn, and listen. Read the Hot Tips and Cold Shots section, read the Duty Roster
Archives - that's what it is there for. If you don't want to learn you should not be here. "

Thank you for your co-operation.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 02:34:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

It's not firearms related- but you have got to see what some people

build in their spare time!

http://www.bestweb.net/~kcoyne/frame_sg.htm
 
 
 

Utgardaloki <utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 02:38:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.103)

I've read several people saying that the BSA scopes are no good. I personally have and definitely shoot on a budget. Many I have talked to have these scopes and think that , for the money, thay are a good buy. Of course, all of these are civilian shooters just deflating rodents out to 400 or so. I have a 6-24 mildot on my Savage 10 FP that seems to work well. A friend and I went to an outdoor range recently and managed to put our shots in the same hole, trading off, with said scope. The range was only 100. The rings are Millet by the way. I happen to really like the rifle and the scope and was wondering what exactly is wrong with BSA.(He says expecting imminent flaming)Please offer what you can to us lowly low budget types that learned to shoot from an ex-Marine at summer camp. If any, what inexpensive scopes can you recommend?
avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 03:06:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.68.123.104)

Should I get a mark 4 m3 or m1 what is the difference? and is a luminous reticle any good? what are its pros and cons?
 

Thanks for your patience I am done posting till I read the arcives.
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 03:18:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.128)

http://www.gsifirearms.com/tactical/st-ssg-p2mc-main.html
 

David <davidwiz@erols.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 03:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.164.190.226)

lito'.....my spouse is gonna sue you........after I die of loss of oxygen!!!!!
"$35.00, and they go on, and come off REAL easy!!!!!!!!!"......

Stop it!, Stop it!, You're KILLIN ME!!!!!!!!!!.

I ain't had this much fun, since Clinton ( partially), left the WHouse!!!!!.......

CDC.......I am sho glad yo wasn't mah Daddy!!!!!!

Bravo!!!!.....Get your sorry butt back on here....lito is killin me!!!!!!!!

So glad to have ( regain composure),(; the Undude Mr. Miller...back in form........SOMEONE's gotta rein in the terror!!!!!

On the issue of "Turrets", (Ahem), I just became the proud Daddy of a M118/ 7.62 nato "Turret".......I feel very fortunate!!!!!

lito', could you pleeeze tell me the story of the RED box....once more???.........Outa here before the SHTF!!!!!!

One Shoe
Lost one, LMAO....(;
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 03:38:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.181)

'lito - yeah that sunburn hurts:)

Big Will - Difference between MkIV M3 and MkIV M1 - M1 has 1/4 MOA click adjustments with a turret. M3 has 1MOA click and the BDC.
Before you (or anyone else) makes a rash decision think it out what are your uses would be and goals from the system.
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 03:41:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

I have a Bushnell 6x18 40mm scope that I bought some years ago, that was a POS. But I had just gotten a new Varmint riffle, and was broke (what else is new), and told myself that it would be alright because (fill in your favorite excuses), and laid out nearly 200 beans for it.
The first day out with it, it was so bad that I left the range, firing about 20 rounds... it has sat in my basement ever since.
Another buck and a half, and I woulda had $350 for a Lupita... I still bought the Lupita, but it cost me $550 now, cuz the bushy is a NG POS... and I don't know anyone that I dislike enough to sell it to.
I wouldn't even sell it to Stevie, and you old timers know how much I didn't like him ;((

The BSA is Chinese Poopie, there is no other way to put it. It might be OK on a 22, or an airgun for the backyard, but you will eat it in the end.
When you wait for what you really want, it is SO FINE when you get it.
Go the distance. You can get a used Lupita, for about 1/2 of a new one, and remember. The lifetime garantee is now YOURS... you get a twenty minute guarentee with junk.

BigWill...
Listen... DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!! there are no easy rides.
Read the archives... lemme say it another way... READ THE ARCHIVES.
This is not a shopping service.
Your questions are so basic, it's like walking into a racing shop, and asking "should I get a Chevvy, or a Porche?"
You don't know enough about what we do, to even ask meaningful questions. If you don't know the difference between an M1, and an M3, and which one you need, then you are too low on the food chain to be dinning here.

As Sinister said a few days ago... some guys just want "Nintendo"... you want a shopping list from the people here, and life doesn't work that way.
If you don't have the time to get the answers, then you don't have the time to learn to use the equipment... READ THE ARCHIVES!
Learn something on your own, then ask questions to fill in the little places.

Moe said it a few days ago... he read the entire Archives three times, and sections of it ten times... you should read it at least once.

As a great philospher once said:
"I can help you with the trim, but I can't build your house for you!"

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 04:02:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.129)

Go find your other shoe, finish your veggies, or no puddin!

Well he did say he wanted a set-up with a quick release... and the $35 Weaver does come off quick...
... levers? what levers? we don' need no steenkin' levers!! ;)

... and remember to brush your teeth before night, night ;))

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 04:17:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.129)

Charles Higgins- Sure are a lot of "they saids" in your statement. Tell you what- I'll grab my M4, or an AK-47 if that makes you more comfortable, you grab a 9mm pistol. Lets see how fast you say you are undergunned and look for an "excuse".
Now I am willing to believe you got bad info from someone or other or a quite paranoid black helicopter mindset but please check up on the facts before posting a very inflammatory opinion.

I would also ask, very politely, that people refrain from discussing on an open forum what a police vest will or won't do. Bad guys read. Stupid kids with social problems read and take it out on their classmates.

Oh yeah-

Depleted uranium- M1A1 Abrams sabot rounds. 120mm....not 224.

12 gauge Flechette Rounds- not effective.
12 gauge Flamethrower rounds- useless tactically, but great for a laugh! Much closer range than that too. All that these rounds are designed for are to seperate you from your money.

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 04:28:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

I just received a big book in the mail from Precision Shooting magazine, and after the first rapid browse thru the pictures and article titles I have only two words to say about it: "HOLY COW!"

This thing is chock-full of stuff dealing with service rifles, bolt rifles, and over-the-course and Palma (800-900-1,000 yard) shooting, reloading, and equipment.

This is DEFINITELY a must-have for the snow-bound day or the weekend when the old lady and kids are visiting somewheres else.

It was a bit pricey at around $35, but it's got stuff in it for the truly hard-core accuracy long-gun queer.

"The Highpower Shooting Primer: The Very Best Articles on Shooting and Reloading for the Most Popular of all the Rifle Accuracy Disciplines... Highpower Shooting." "From the pages of Precision Shooting Magazine 1990-1999". I think they have the a website at precisionshooting.com

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 04:28:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Ken
Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 04:28:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

now charlie, the 7.62X39 will defeat most types of body armor, and with the AP's that the tangos in hollywood were using it defeated the armor after punching holes in the engine blocks of patrol cars. supposidly ar-15's were "requisitioned" from local guns store, but i'm not sure of that. but they still don't carry "assullt rifles" they are just allowed to use slugs in their shotguns

those depleated uranium rounds you talk of where actually the anti-tank rounds used in , guess what, TANKS!! M829 APFSDS(armor peircing, fin-stabalized, discarding sabot) i.e a footlong uranium dart moving at Mach4. SO NOT A .223

Try the firequest web site for penetrators, flechetts and dragons breath

nitro_pb (can you quess what it is?)
 

ALAN CARTWRIGHT now known as nitro_pb <nitro_pb@hotmail.com>
water valley, ms, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 04:30:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.220.144.165)

Thanks.

Frances
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frances <francis.fitzpatrick@bakernet.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 04:44:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.53.242)

Must be the Moon.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 05:01:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.113)

Plasma: I use it, just about daily. If you've got 220V and a spotter to carry the 150 pound RF source, you can turn argon into plasma, no prob, in the atmosphere. Of course, once you do, it's not good for anything other than vaporizing metals (what I use it for), and that includes barrels.

Big Will: close on the nickel plated brass stuff, but not quite. I said that I've ruined a couple of steel RCBS sizing dies with it. They replaced the first one no sweat. The second one they replaced included a NICE note that stated that they figured out what the problem was.... it was my resizing nickel plated brass, and requested that I refrain from this practice. Seems that they sectioned the resizer die, and found little shards of nickel plating embedded in the die. Made sense to me, all I knew was that my cases were coming out scratched all the way down, and it didn't clear up even when I cleaned out the dies like a chamber. They also suggested that I clean my brass better before resizing. Those picky jerks ;-) Seriously, any time I can get nitride or carbide, I *ALWAYS* go with that. I can resize 357 maggies (brass only now) without lube, etc. Great stuff. And on the Mark 4 M3, like Dexter would say, "Just DU it". You'll love it. I use the 30-06 collar, with a load running right at 2680 fps. It tracks to 1000, but like Master Rick suggested, I sight it in at the max range I can call it a good group with an easily determined center. On good powders for 168's and 175's, here's my pick: VARGET!! (Thanks PeteR!) I've played with plenty of others, good secondary choices would be Vihta N-135/N-140 (for a bolt gun, I'd probably go with N-140), and of course AA2520. But of those, Varget is EASILY my pick. And what's this about Parker Hale? They're one of the BEST companies out there! My Parker Hale target iron sights are PRIMO. I think their bipods are a touch heavy, but built like steel rods..... hmmm. Guess they really are ;-)

On clitton, our previous cum-hander in cheap: he's a traitor and a treasoner, plain and simple. If there were anything approximating justice in our UN occupied America, he would be publicly tried, then publicly executed. Then, his body would be deported to some hell hole.

Now for the biggie: Look out for Sir Wes! He's comin' through, and he's not going to take any prisoners! I'm sitting here thinking about what I do as a spotter, and what he's going to be doing with the worlds best spotters rifle. Gonna be entertainment deluxe!!

Now then, I suppose I'll just sit back and kick myself for missing that close, loving, wonderful girlscout moment when we all "came together" ;-) Now then, let's all do it again, after I get my camera! I've got a feeling that a "all Patrons kissing" pic would be a big seller LOL.

Dang I miss you guys!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 05:19:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.103)

I won't let the cat out of the bag, but 1:15 is about 75% too damn fast. Have shot SLAP out of a correctly twisted, un braked rifle and it does ...... well, better than 1.5 MOA. Just gotta brake the gun a different ways, there are ways out there guys, think outside the box.

;)
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 05:32:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.221.163)

Bravo-Whats up! How are those items working?
Oh yeah-be proud of me. I got my son's teacher to ask for my copy of the NRA Eddy Eagle program so he can show it to the class. One small step at a time...

Mike T

Mike T <riflemike@home.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 05:42:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Dude! $40 for rings and base? SLINGS cost $40, but not quality rings and bases! (p.s. see undude for the sling!)
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 05:43:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

to tell the truth, i actually fell kind of bad. i don't know that i really have the right to write about a subject that i have no real expirience in. like it would be disrespectful. i DO shoot and i DO own a rifle, which shoots better than i can, but that's something altogether different. i almost feel like i'd be dishonoring the proffesion by makeing something up. Sould i really wright this book? i don't really know.

ok, i'm bummed now. let me know what y'all think

p.s what is the issue rifle for FBI HRT?
nitro_pb <nitro_pb@hotmail.com>
wv, ms, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 06:03:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.220.144.234)

My NIB Luppie 6X M3 arrived today. I AM impressed. The optical clarity is phenominal. To bad they took these puppies off the market.

On the other hand, there is not any detailed information on mounting the system, range of adjustment, or any thing else pertaining to the 6X. The booklet is for 10X and 16X models. I'm going to call Leupold tomorrow and see if they can send me some information. There is NADA to show how the system works, etc.

Leupold gets an A+ in production/quality and a D in user friendliness categories.

Hopefully, any of you guru's out there that have data or how this dang thing is supposed to me mounted/calibrated/used I'd be most greatful for the information.

Presently, I'm in the "blind hog looking for a turnip" mode.

Semper Fi,

Wes
(Bumbling in Blodgett)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 06:09:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.54)

what would your twist rate be for the 50 caliber Saboted Light Armor p-ammo?? Maybe you'd slow it to the 24" twist, such as the black powder rifles?? Maybe you'd half it to the 20" twist such as the 45- 70's..... Maybe you'd explain me the reasons why you would slow the rate down?? I thought you could never overstabilize???

Trigger:

It's the Muzzle brakes. Open the sob's up fer god sakes. Yer shooting Zinc!!! Maybe a shallower bore dimension would be in place for Zinc, less torque, open the friggin muzzle brakes first though. And as far as I'm concerned, F&*$%k the compensators, they screw more shit up than is gained. Sometimes I just hate ideas.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 06:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

You lost my faith in your 'spin drift' theory, not that some of it wasn't viable, but that you were such a dumbass in presenting it... but I know that you are of capable knowlege of ballistic theory that when you say a 50 slap isn't hitting like it should, you probably recognize that sound!! right
 

But you are wrong as far as twist!! Kiss my ass, why would a solid round carry any different than a Slap round. No increase in velocity?? Trajectory minutely affected by the sabot but is used on heavy armor so nonsignificant. We could have 12" MOA and be all right with SLAP for it's purpose.... 50's are not personnell rounds, so damn the 1.5-2.5 MOA persona, so freaking what !!!! 50's are not meant for humans...
 

later]
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
H-S Precision , .com, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 06:46:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Bravo - you should have felt the LOVE - HA
 

I think we agreed a year or so ago that we were not going to get into the he said she said about what is or isn't appropriate on the forum.
But that we had some ideas
1) Defeating Ground Radar and Thermal Obs Platforms
2) Specific Entry Tatics and how to defeat/counteract
3) Anything that really could put any LE or Mil into jeopardy
 

P.S. I'll sit inside a Bradley and let anyone shoot at me all day w/ a pistol (provided they are outside and the hatches are dogged)
 

G'Night Troops
 
 
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 07:06:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Imaging you are aiming at a radar dish on a ZSU - the idea of getting within 200m for a hit (with your F*CK'd logic)does not inspire me.

.50 is not going to engulf a vehicle is flames or casue a cataustrophic resul with a near miss or a non-vital hit.

Besides .50 is great on humans (just ask 2PPCLI @Kapyong)

M-903 SLAP 2000yds MOA drop 26.5
Mk211 Raufoss 2000yds 122.5
M-8 API 103.5
M-33 BALL 102.5

You know I think Dean just might :) know what he is talking about

I could be wrong but...

Tony White still kicking around?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 07:18:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

TIA, Brian
Brian <heiterman@qnet.com>
Bishop, ca, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 07:27:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.221.198.124)

Deano, you are generally a prick, but I agree with most of what yousay when you agree with me....

and 12 MOA!!! wTF, if youse guys dont see that as shite, I don't know what to think. originally it was 1.200 MOA but everyone was too serious to speak truthfully so I gave up... I gave ya the poopers

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
close to god, sd, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 07:32:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.24)

Correction = (Inches of Drop) x 104.72 / (Range in yards)

OR........

Get yourself a Mildot Master, which will not only do that calculation for you, but simultaneously convert that drop into "hold-over in mils."

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but ask Gooch and Rick if they'd rather buzz it out on a calculator or use my gizmo.

Shamelessly,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 08:03:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.86)

It was real puuuurrdy :-}

Read the post on all the Clinton people who have died, very interesting - much like the list of people who died in the two years after Kennedy was shot by................

That would be an interesting thread to start.

Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 10:27:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

LISTEN to EVERYONE! Read the archieves and Hot Tips & Cold Shots pages and most of your questions will be answered at least 100 times.
Plus you will probably laugh your ass off at the wittier comments from some of the Patrons and Masters (Yes they truely "are that")
 

BOTTOM LINE- If you buy shit kit, you'll get shit results!
 
 

Ken,
Sandpaper a WHAT???? Is that sumfin 'Lito taught you??
 
 

Shaking his head, peteR SLOWLY starts to the bathroom for some much needed Thorazine, before continuing to read the rest of the latest Roster Rants .........
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 11:59:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.33)

Jim Mitchell,

Check out the latest article posted on the S/C main page,
Meeting A Legend: Simo Häyhä

and the link to "Moisin/Nagant Mecca".
 

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 12:05:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.33)

Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 13:27:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Dean/Trigger, I understand what you are talking about. My thought is the sabot is spun to fast by a fast twist bbl you get seperation too quickly but I have not proven it. This would be similar to what happens when you push lightly constructed bullets in too fast a twist bbl. Some guys call it the "Blue Mist" when the bullet tears itself apart.What do you think?

On the SLAP Chamber probelm and guns that shoot terrible with that chamber. I was not talking about shooting SLAP, I was talking about shooting normal bullets in a SLAP weapon and having the bullet have too much jump, causing crappy groups. SLAP is way longer than normal ball and you need a special chamber and yes the brake should be opened up to avoid tearing the brake off when the sabot sepperates from the projectile. Clear as mud?

JR, love your work and agree with you most of the time, but the idea f shooting a 50 BMG rifle without a brake is farther off than than spin drift. Just a little humor.

Nitro, first thing you should get is a great Editor. Just kidding. What I would do, if I was in your shoes is go to a sniper type class and see what it is like. You will meet some snipers and learn from them. You will get the ideas and how to down. This is the route that Clancy has taken in many books and he is respected for it. Try Storm Mountain. Rod Ryan is the real deal and can help you. My classes for this year are full or I would offer. By the way I have some one edit everything I do for magazines.

Charlie Higgins, The sling you speak of is not a sling just a carry strap. Your knowledge of this is only slightly better than the police issue. I dont do this much, I save it for special folks, but you my man are an idiot. Go away with your crap.

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 14:53:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

MikeM...teacher took Eddie the Eagle? Watch for the teacher to be fired.....let's hope not. Score one for the good guys! Thank you.
Your background must have helped.

Slick Willie leaving a trail of bodies? Let me ask you LE and GI types out there:
Who is supposed to be figuring out this shit and fixing it?

(*IF* (and that's a hell of a big if) this is really Clinton's work)

Kevin of the GWN....
What kind of a Constitution does CDN have? I am (admittedly) ignorant of you guys up dere, eh. Other than my 10 day Boundary Waters trip (oh yeah) I know nothing. As far as that "let's not talk about that" goes, well, let's just say that some agencies have used what they can do for evil rather than good, leaving innocents who could have really used the intel dead and/or ruined, and leave it at that.

'Lito and others...this is not a flame, just a difference of opinion:

Big Will....Your mission should dictate your choice in equipment. While there is no way to win any argument when it comes to using the best money can buy, you CAN get away with a limited amount of fudging DEPENDING on what your requirements are. Although many of the rosterHOGS are professionals and equip themselves that way, some of us are simply novice to advanced shooters, interested in precision shooting for a variety of reasons. I am learning to shoot at long range because I feel it is my duty to be able to effectively use the rifle, to hunt, to defend my home, and if the SHTF. These circumstances are decidedly different than many of the esteemed shooters that frequent this board. Remember the saying "consider the source"? This particular source is *apparently*(only because I haven't met any of them) the cream of the sniping crop.

That said, I feel there is a place for the mid priced equipment for people like us. My personal rifle will make most of the shooters here gasp in disgust....a Savage 110FP with a Harris bipod, Simmons (gasp, choke) 3-9 power 50mm scope, and Luepold rings on Burris bases. There is not a piece of equipment that I have that has not been condemned by someone on the roster. Guess what? I don't care!
It fits my requirements, at least for now. I don't have the time or money to attend a school like Storm or anything like that where you are going to be stalking and beating the hell out of yourself and your rifle (and loving every minute of it!!!). My rifle comes out of secure storage, and goes into a good hard case, goes in the back seat of my truck, and goes to the range. If I want to shoot 100 meters or less, I walk out my back door with it. It gets shot from the bench, from prone, offhand and other positions at varying ranges. It goes back into the case, comes home, is cleaned/inspected, and goes back into secure storage. Until I can honestly say that I have mastered things such as breath control, trigger, flinch, and in all shooting positions, I feel I have no need to do more. What's the point of doing all that fun sneaking and peeking (and spending the money to do it) and not be good enough to hit something when you get there? My time is better spent just shooting (and widening the barrel channel and reinforcing the forearm with a cool section of extruded aluminum. I have adjusted to trigger to the point that it breaks clean and failry light as well). When I have mastered the basics I will upgrade my scope to a mil-dot and then curse myself every weekend for not paying attention in math class. When I have mastered that, well, here comes a good aftermarket stock, and Badger rings and bases. But in the meantime, I am shooting!!! I feel the $40 (or whatever it was) I will lose on my Leupold 2 piece rings when I upgrade is more than worth it in the trigger time it gave me....
You may be more advanced as far as shooting skill. Perhaps you have more money to spend. One of the points I think some of these people are trying to get across to you is that you can never lose in the long run by buying the best right off the bat, and that is undeniable. I have a good friend that talked me out of an AK that I could afford then and into a preban AR a few months later, and I'll never regret it. However, in the case of my rifle, I had the choice of get shooting now, or keep saving (and saving, and saving). It was tougher too because all I needed was rings. I don't need the super heavy duty shit, but I want to learn how to shoot, and shoot ungodly well. I have a long way to go, but if a carload of BG's was at the end of my driveway (60 yards) and shooting, I WILL make hits with my Savage or a Barret 50 or a PSS or a f*^%$*g .22, guaranteed.

Another analogy for you: Dale Earnhardt, used only the best equipment, etc. He was one of the best among a field of the best, and only the best will do in that situation. When it comes to long range shooting, are you a Dale Earnhardt? OR are you like me...one of the guys down at the local 1/2 mile oval, racing, winning, and honing your skills?

You have to get what you want........
If you want to be shooting sooner rather than later, consider your needs, be realistic about them, and go with the best you can do that gets you on the range with a grin on your face and the capability you feel you need. If you are looking to have the best, then wait, save up, and get the best. You won't be disappointed.....these people have you very well covered!!!

BTW, lap your rings. Scratch one Simmons. ( At least it wasn't an M3!!)

I have asked these same questions, and had many a debate about them among friends and a little with the rosterfarians. This is the route I chose, and it has worked for me in a most excellent fashion.

Thanks all for the space to air an opinion ( a strong one at that ) from this humble beginner. Go easy on Big Will (and you have, even notoriously cranky 'lito ;>) he obviously (like me) is in awe of the tremendous personalities on the ol' roster..

Every stinkin time I post....I'll work on the length, promise.
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
Green Bay Packer Country, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 15:10:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.85)

Either of you guys have weight/velocity/BC of the SLAP rounds?

A friend has some "SLAP" rounds... Tungsten conical .28-.30 core in a transparent smokie brown sabot... does he have the real mcCoy, or just Voo-Doo jive round that he got suckered for (at $15 to $25 each)??

TriggerFly...
You're back, everybody's is upset... life is good again, as usual!

I have a copy of your book that Tony White loaned me. It's not the earlier one I thought it was when we spoke... so is the Christmas deal still going (The book, charts, extra Tac chapters, etc, plus a sherpa to tote my kit), or do I have to wait till next year ;).

I have a line on BC's for the M48 seems that nobody has them, (including Keith Pagel.), and will send them to you (and him) in a few weeks. I have a laboratory grade BC program that will compute BC from dimensions, and the guy that wrote it said he got his code and skinny from the Aberdeen PG group.
I usually don't trust these things, cuz my experence has been poor with them, but I ran the M8 projo last night, and it is a dead match (including velocity curves and variations), to the data you have from the military... so there is hope that the science has taken another baby step forward ;))

Watch your back, this is a "rough crowd" here ;))

Kevin...
This snow thingie... we have to talk!! It's gettin R-E-A-L O-L-D!! ;)
It's supossed to be in the 50's now, and it's FRIGGIN' SNOWING !!!
 

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 16:17:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.35)

Sorry man, gotta disagree with you on this. LE does not need F/A, ever! Maybe two round burst for the poor suckers carrying MP-5's, especially in 9mm:) but 'real' F/A is only gonna get them into more trouble than it's worth. Suppressive fire? Police? Sorry, no way I want them to have F/A and hose down the countryside with rounds. You want to get them M240G's also? Little suggestion, you want serious firepower, you get the Gov to call up the National Guard. Some of them, their level of training is crap, but it's better for the nation to maintain a separation of police and military. And their hardware. Yeah, I know some dept's have belt fed, and some have 50 cals and some probably have flamethrowers that I don't know about, but that's all crap, and shouldn't be that way. Too much chance of innocent citizens getting wasted on accident, and that's my concern. Sorry to all the police officers in the CONUS out there, but when it comes down to crunch time, I'd rather it be you get killed than have you blow away some innocent US citizen down the street having lunch. I'm not saying that we should only give you guys S&W M10's, but some of the hardware I see out there is better and more destructive than what I have access to(USMC), and that scares me. Happily, I haven't seen any dept's with Javelins, Mk19Mod3's or SMAW's, but with all this "police are undergunned" crap I'm hearing, it's only a matter of time. Police should be well armed(rationally) and also well armoured, but most importantly they should be well trained and well disciplined. I know this doesn't apply to almost all the guys reading the roster, but I know more than a few police officers who I wouldn't trust with a slingshot. And most of that isn't just due to their lack of skill with weapons, it's more due to their lack of good judgement, and that, combined with F/A is downright dangerous. Sorry for the rant. Semper Fidelis.....
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 17:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

This whole thing of PD's becoming more military can not get away from the basic "To protect and serve". If we hit the end and chaos is everywhere the military would come in for the heavy stuff anyway. I train for taking on bg's not armies. I would not want to live with the friendly fire weight on my shoulders.

Just my opinion.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 17:19:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Mike's T and M F/A input?
My scenario wasn't the best for an example of the why but with proper use and instruction it becomes a tool just like most others.

LE/Gov't Secrecy - Hey I am out (non-active anymore) My point was is that on an open forum there is no need to discuss certain issues - some BG's have internet in jail. We can what if? face to face with some Bravo brews
 
 
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 17:39:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Like many have said, you definately need to do your homework. At least I would NEVER put 1100 dollars on ANY scope based only on the opinions of some people in the net which I have never met. Neither should you. If you do not know why you should buy M3 instead of M1 you should not buy neither one of those before you know why YOU should buy something. It's your money, so you better decide yourself what you want to buy and why. A M3 or M1 will definately NOT make a sniper out of anyone. Just like owning a piano does not make you a world class pianist right away.

It is good to ask questions but the questions should be something interesting or thought provoking also for the person answering them. The people at Duty Roster will do research and share opinions on interesting questions or even buy some of the stuff for testing purposes just for the fun of it. But when you ask them too "low knowledge" questions, they will become pissed off. I do not become pissed off, I just will not bother to answer you.

So make a list of basic questions for yourselves and try to find answers from your head and duty roster archives. If after that something is still unclear, please ask.

Questions you need first to ask and asnwer yourself:

1) What do you want to do with the rifle (shoot incredibly small groups, hunt deer, train for 1000 yard competition, owning a quality rifle without any thought of using it ever for shooting or what) ?
2) How much money do you want to spend ? You can not order a Chandler Sniper rifle if you have only 800 USD available. (That rifle starts at about 4000 USD, additionally you need to buy a scope to it which is another 1000 USD). You do not have to buy a Chandler rifle as you can get by with other more reasonable priced products, just like with cars not everybody needs a Porsche, really. You just first need to know what you want, we can not tell you what YOU should buy. We know what we want to buy and why. Our decisions are based on OUR ideas and needs not on your needs. So find out what YOU need first.
3) Do you want to get into reloading or not ? If you do not want to, or can not buy a chronograph, then you should not start reloading for long range shooting. The results of reloading vary by rifle, so without an chronograph you CAN NOT shoot accurately with reloads out to 1000 yards. Trust me on this. You can do better with Federal Match if you do not want buy a chronograph and reloading gear.
4) Do you think that you might want to sell the rifle later on and get your money back ? This is not going to happen. Sniper rifles are like veteran cars, only enthusiasts wuill buy them and even they will not pay list price for used gear. And enthusiasts are VERY picky about what they are buying.

Which rifle, scope and calibre to choose are questions to which only YOU can answer after you have first read a lot about the subject and then decide what YOU really want to do within the always existing financial constraints and personal likes and dislikes.

Reading through the Archives you WILL find out that there is almost no universal truth to ANY sniper related question. Duty Roster has "religous wars" every now and then over various things like BDC vs. 1/4 MOA knobs, semi vs. bolt action. 308 vs. 6.5-284 vs. 300 Win Mag vs. 338 Lapua Magnum vs. .50 BMG vs. .408 Cheyenne, bipod or not, Badger rings or not and so on and on until the world ends.

For the reasons mentioned above you better do your homework first. If this is too much to ask then I suggest you go somewhere else and stop wasting our time. I do not want to be rude but this is the way it works around here.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 18:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

Texas Brigade is live and kicking. Mike told me he suspended the website because he can't keep up with the rifle orders and because he needed to update the prices. The site is still up - e-mail me for the backdoor...The M40A1 is now 2K. BTW, I waited over a year for my TBAM40A1 and I nailed Mike a few times on this board regarding customer service....but the bottom line is he builds an accurate M40A1 replica. Mine shoots in the .2's all day long.
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 18:37:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

steve <savage400@aol.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 18:44:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.22.213.8)

Patron UnDude: the more I talk to you and read what you have to say, the more I'm convinced that you're no member of the "law enforcement officer" group. You, sir, are a PEACE officer. God bless you, I wish that ALL the cops in the US were up to your level. It's the RIGHT thing.

Kevin OTGWN: you and I aren't disagreeing too much in THEORY, but in practice, it gets NASTY. Take for instance our BAT boys. Here we have an agency, created against the constitution, that regulates alcohol, tobacco (legally), and firearms (illegally). After their botched public job of murdering innocent women and children, they claimed that they were outgunned. Fine, hopefully they were. Is that an appropriate excuse to procure multiple A-10 anti-tank warplanes and multiple 75 mm howitzers? They thought so, and DID! This "tax enforcement agency" is militarized to the 9's, when they ought to be out of jobs completely. How does this translate to line cops? Cops are citizens first. They're not military, and have no need for military weapons. The MOST they should have is what is allowable to the rest of the citizenry, because they're PART OF the citizenry. I'm not advocating putting them behind the times, but I see no purpose for dragons, LAWs, or tanks, artillery, or warplanes. When the police, being citizens, are allowed priviledges above and beyond their citizen ranking, we are now making a social strata, or class. And what do we know historically about social classes that are more "entitled" than the other classes? I'll give you a hint, you get the same inexcusable attrocities against the citizenry as have been the norm for the batboys. And I look forward to sharing some beer over these conversations soon!

Geoff M: you can't learn to shoot 1/4 MOA in the wind with a 3 MOA rifle. It's the students that need the extra edge. The masters can "make due" with what they have at hand, since they know their capabilities and that of the weapon. I'd much rather go up against a beginner with a Chandler than Master Rick with a Winchester 94. But for learning, I'd side with the Chandler over the Winchester 94 anytime. The exception to that rule is if you did it like I did, where you've got a partner or coach that INSTRUCTS you. He knows what the rifle is capable of, and will dink YOU into spec.

Mike: Great to hear! I like to hear about the Eddie Eagle program being used. I've seen it locally, complete with the hopolophobic idiots telling the people at large that it was somehow a gun sales promotion device, akin to candy cigarettes. That's the bad part of idiocy though, they can't be reasoned with and do procreate. I haven't given the goodies much of a solid go, it's been nasty here virtually EVERY weekend (that I've been in town anyway) since you've sent 'em out. I don't want to roll around in the mud with it before sending it back ;-) but the magpuls are 100%, I'm a believer now! If the dude that makes the custom mag pouches I like will ever get back to me, I'm going to have some made up specifically for my mags WITH the puls. And no grenade loops, like the ones I have. Good quality, good materials, good prices, but doesn't return calls or e-mails for squat. They even made desert tan magpuls, I imagine with me in mind personally. HA! DOUBLE HA! Thanks for the tip and help, I appreciate it!

Sorry for the bandwidth burnup guys.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, now the UN occupied zone called the USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 18:47:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

I have to agree with Undude, Ken M, etc.

Having been a street cop in a high crime city, and a RO for numerous Semi-auto and full-auto (shoot what ya brung) close range IPSC style carbine matches, I can see ZERO "need" for full autos in law enforcement.

Very few (if any) cops are better with full-autos than semi-autos. In fact, a full-auto never won any of our carbine matches. Not once. And they were all close range, multiple target, assault style matches that should have given an advantage to full-autos, if any such advantage existed.

In addition, full-autos (and masks) somehow have a tendancy to turn normal cops into imitation Rambos.

I have fired most of the full-auto carbines that LE currently uses and IMHO a semi-auto CAR with AimPoint and white light would be a far better choice. At least it would in every real world LE scenario that I can think of.

As for MP-5's, they are the best of the bunch. But they are still not up to semi-auto CAR capabilities.

Why issue dangerous full-auto toys to the boys when full-autos aren't needed? And more to the point, why use Ramboesque full-autos when they aren't as effective as semi-autos? And why allow identity concealing masks when meth labs aren't on the program?

To echo Undude, cops are supposed to Serve and Protect and make arrests for violations. They are NOT supposed to be going on Search & Destroy combat missions, like the military.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies where it's snowing...again, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 18:51:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.14)

steve...
Please don't advertise your used junk here on the Duty Roster... look around you, do you see ad's here?
This is a discussion board, and people will get ticked off enough that they won't buy your junk, even if they were interested... take your ads to the "Emporium"... where it may sell.
 

'lito
 

PAblito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 19:55:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.121)

Pete..
I got a chance to review some new tapes last night on the Isralie(SP) self defense system. It looks pretty good from what I have seen. Its a no BS system that is short and to the point and you wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of it. I like a lot of their ideas in that they go off of a persons natural reactions to a precieved threat. They are counter attacking almost as they are defending against the attack. They have really studied what the body does under a set of given strikes and how it reacts and where it goes so they can keep delivering follow up attacks. If you get a chance to check it out have a look and see what you think. Its sure no traditional martial arts!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 20:38:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 21:08:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Are loupie mk4 rings okay, what about the bases? I'm probably going to go with the badgers, but I just wanted to know.

Sorry, i've been lurking here for a year now, and I just haven't been able to find the time to look through the archives totally.

"More can be accomplished with a smile and a gun, than with just a smile alone!" (Al Capone)
Mayhem <killare@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 21:10:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.23.193.242)

Leupold 3.5-10x40 LR M3 mil-dot Illuminated Reticle.

I'll probably get one at this point. My research has turned up
2 (two) part numbers:
52366 (swfa.com premierreticles.com)
53672 (dnrsports.com, leupold.com)

What Leupold has told me is this:
53672 is the current production model. It has glass etched reticle with round mildots each .25 mil.

52366 is the older version which has the illumination system on the top of the scope (12 o'clock position) whereas the new version, 53672, has moved the illumination system 30 degrees to the right to produce more even illumination between the verticle and horizontal reticle pickets.

Has anyone used the 'new version' (part 53672)? and if so, is there anything else that I missed and might want ot know about?

Thomas Smailus <tom@rsip.lsu.edu>
Baton Rouge, LA, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 22:40:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.39.30.41)

I was getting ready for bed, and MUCHO tired....so sorry if my earlier post didn't make much sense. BUT, I still stand by the thrust (uhhh, he said thrust) of my argument for Big Will, which was, If you're not going to be going on a 5 or 10 mile stalk and mucking you're rifle about, and are mostly doing range work for proficiency (and FUN), you may not need to spend the big money for the Badger stuff at the outset, unless you are concerned about losing that money when and IF you have to upgrade.

3 MOA?
I can shoot 2 MOA as far out to 100 meters (a meter is a little more than a yard, learned that on Sesame Street) any number of shots you want, all day long, using American Eagle factory ball, and the rifle will do better with better ammo. I am going to be doing some longer range stuff (200-700/800) once the rest of the snow melts and before the neighbor can get the beans into the ground, and I am going to start handloading any day now (really! Just as soon as the spinning wheels of the slot machine that is my checking account catch up to all my spending and quit spinning!!!) Also, I still have room for improvement in the area of breathing and wobbling....but I can already shoot it well enough to hit if used in a defensive situation on my property (minute of BG at 60 yd driveway). Hell, I may not even have enough talent at the long range disciplne to sink a bunch of money into it. It's still very fun for me.
My situation may or may not be very relevant to y'all but I hope you don't mind me contributing a little bit when relevant to my own situation, and absorbing some of the great lessons and humor around here.

It's the weekend, and I can hear something in a mug calling, gotta go!
 
 

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
I KNEW I could shorten up my posts!, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 22:59:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.123)

I ain't been around long enough to offer advice on this board
but C Higgins I can save you some money

Mike T advised you that those 12 gauge Dragon rounds were expensive
he is right. But Dude YOU DON'T NEED no steenkin Dragon round
Get a Bic point your ass at the enemy and light up and sound off cause you sir all full of S**T and I guarantee you will completely incinerate your opponents with the unholy flames shooting from your
arse.

Could not resist that one
Won't happen again for a while any way
JC
 

JC <fourswordshere@earthlink.net>
Asbestos Underpants, KY, USA - Friday, March 09, 2001 at 23:37:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.89.141.164)

Going to do the break in of my PSS this weekend, wish us luck =)

Anyone have suggestions for accessories either for the gun or shooting it in general that I might want to eventually get? I picked up one of those eagle stock packs, great recommendation guys! I love it and it puts my eye perfectly in line with the scope when I have cheek weld. I also picked up a Starlight case for my baby, however I can't get the middle two latches to close or open without the use of a crowbar. I'll have to give them a call Monday to see if I should send it back or if this is normal. Overall it's a very nice looking case and I like the handles and ridges for stacking much more than the Pelican Rifle case. Other things I know I'm going to get are an otis sniper cleaning kit, a good spotting scope, and probably an Eagle shooting mat. Any other suggestions you guys might have are always appreciated!

- The Good Jen

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Houston, Confusion, Texas - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 00:19:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.218.245.6)

Tom - .308 running out of steam before 1000 yards?...Hmm I don't know about that. I was shooting my .308Towed at Quantico on the 1000 yard line. Dudes in the pits (via radio) were giving me the impacts - and said the rounds sounded nice-n-supersonic passing overhead. No that's not an accurate chrono - but it's above XXXX feet per second.
This was black hills 175grn match, out of a 26" barrel.

Ken
Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 01:52:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Just saying what i think.

montrose
MONTROSE <bellm@constellation.navy.mil>
fpo , ap, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 02:16:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.56.145.38)

The latches on the Starlight case ARE a bitch to open and close. I think it's because of the friction-fit action. The two on the right of my case are the bad boys for me. It appears that with continued use, they are tending to loosen up some. The pressure valve has no bearing on how the latches function.

My knuckles are healing quite nicely now, thank you very much!

I also have bungee-corded a small rubber mallet to the case just in case! LOL

I carry my Remy 700 and my Colt R6551 in the case at the same time which makes for a heavy load but they don't move around in there. Now if I could only find a good Sherpa that works cheap! :-)

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 03:42:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.184)

Mike M is 100% right on the MP5. Sweet (the gun not that old frankenstein nuts and bolts creation)-but you do need FA to be effective. Train the finger to shoot short bursts, not the machine.

As to rifles being FA capable. I agree with Kevin eh?... There is a limited use for well trained officers with this tool. Note that Kevin alluded to a SWAT scenario, but he didn't go into detail. He is also right, well trained personnel with limited usage of that capability.
Regular patrol, if equipped with a rifle system, should be SA only. Shot placement..shot placement....shot placement.

Flash..you already know the reasons for the facemask (aka balclava). Stop busting balls dude!

Bravo beerski- I just got the Eagle version of that leg pouch without the grenade pouches...and it fits the magpul. Kevin OTGWN was the guy who first turned me on to those things. I think they or Blackhawk makes it in 308 sizes...

JC- I laughed so hard I really almost did ROTFLOL...........
Take care dudes-Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:02:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

The equivalent for .30 cal are 250 and 268 grainers that mimic the Sierra 220 Match King dimensions.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Michael Taylor <taylor2@cdsnet.net>
Grants Pass, Oregon, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 04:35:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.164.163.108)

1. what is the rifle being fired on the back cover of bob forker's AMMO & ballistics?

2.anyone remember "navy Seals" the movie? remember "GOD?" remember how he fired the m82 standing upright and it phased him not? remember how it's holywood and fake(though the toggle infared scope would be cool)? well, what would happen if some real(dumb or brave) person tried it? I am in no way reccomending it

3. in the movie "sniper", billy zane has a odd techie thing in his scope what is it and is it real?
3.2 in what scene is what legend ripped off?

4.if a .50bmg with 4-5 tons of energy at 200 yardscould somehow transfer all of that in to the average midsized sedan, would it A.flip the car b. rock the car. c. blow out the shocks and tires. d something else?

5. .50bmg PISTOL, true/false?

if you could shoot anything you wanted with any kind of gun/cartridge/bullet combo, what would it be? (you, know, fun stuff like fruit cars, bricks, deer ) mine'd be 2 galolons of jellied gasoline surrounded by flares(i have pics, don't ask)
 

ok this is my last thing of the whatever day it is

nitro_pb <nitro_pb@hotmail.com>
wv, ms, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 05:14:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.220.144.181)

Answer to question 3.2

What scene? = Where the enemy sniper was shoot threw the scope.

Legend that was ripped off? = Gunnery Sargent Carlos N Hathcock II
 

Montrose
MONTROSE <bellm@constellation.navy.mil>
fpo, ap, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 05:42:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.56.145.37)

The answer to your question depends, in part, on what you plan to do with your rifle.

If you're Law Enforcement looking for a duty gun, the Chandlers have made a cogent argument that 20 inches is better. The 20 inche rifle is lighter (by about a pound as I recall) and balances better. At typical LE ranges the difference in velocity is negligible. A shorter barrel on a lighter rifle also will make your stalk easier if that is part of your planned use.

On the other hand, if you're going to routinely be shooting at 1000m, then the 22 inch barrel may still be too short.

So, the bottom line is, What is the design mission?

Frances
Frances <francis.fitzpatrick@bakernet.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:08:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.53.242)

5. .50bmg PISTOL, true/false?

True.

Frances
 

Frances <francis.fitzpatrick@bakernet.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.53.242)

Just a note, the match letter is ready for this years Sniper Competition and Train-Up. Drop me an email and I'll push it right back to you. We already have a bunch signed up from last year.

I know one of you will be lighter on your feet this year...Right Elmer Fudd?

Rod
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 06:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.115.131)

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 07:01:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.74.9)

As far as the full auto thread:
I agree to a point. F/A's have little purpose in LE, because as it was pointed out, too hard to control and you run the risk of innocents getting killed.
But, I believe that M-4's with three round burst are very appropriate. If I had to go through a door on a felony warrant or known that the perp was heavily armed then that three round would be really nice to have and their have been many times that the bad guys did out gun the police.
When I was policing in the Ft. Worth area, we had a militia group who was heavily armed and very anti police and there had been problems with them.
I know I may get flamed on this but if I had to serve warrants on these extremeists type groups who ran afoul of the law, then a M249 or M240G would be ideall weapon to have. What the heck you gonna do, when you get pinned down by some extremeist group, who for whatever reason is gone out on the limb and drawn some serious attention to themselves, and has you outgunned? How are going to be able to unpinn yourself? Don't you want the ability to be able to bring unrelenting rain of lead to keep your butt alive?
Last I remember, calling up the military to go after civilian law breakers was against our constitution. We got to be able to pull our own butts out of the fire.
Now as far as BATF, they were wrong to procure all those big time weapons. They should have been put out of action years ago. That is one agency who has gone too far. I have had to deal with them on a personal basis and it was mighty uncomfortable to know they had a file on me and that was just so I could get a SN generated for a pistol.
Sorry to rant and take up bandwidth, I will step down off my soap box now.........and return you to your normal programming.

Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 10:20:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Pak
pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, TX, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 10:33:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Extreamist groups? Darn if I can remember any big shoot-outs between them and the cops. (Waco doesn't count, IMHO, because in the first place it was the Feds, and secondly it never would have happened at all if experienced street cops had executed the warrant in a reasonable and prudent manner.)

Pakrat, you would have been right a year ago, since using the military against civilians was illegal then. But last summer the law was changed, supposedly to allow the military to combat potential terrorism here in the USA. Unfortunately, "potential terrorists/terrorism" wasn't very well defined, resulting in the military now having almost total freedom to intervene in domestic LE situations. This could be good, or bad, depending on what happens down the road.

Raid Masks:

Mike T, I know what masks are supposed to be for. But that reason doesn't hold water if there isn't any prior evidence of flamibles. What concerns me is that people in general are prone to do bad things when they believe their identity is concealed.

Take normally law-abiding people who find themselves in riot situations for example. The aninimity of being in a crowd encourages many to do bad things they wouldn't otherwise do.

The same can be said of KKK members when wearing masks. And armed robbers. And rapists. And......

That being the human case, masked government agents are not a good idea IMHO, except when they are facing a "real", PROVEN fire danger. Otherwise, allowing cops to wear identity concealing masks UNNECESSARILY is likely to lead to police excesses and abuse. Just as allowing the UNNECESSARY use of full-autos is.

I'm not breaking balls Mike, just being honest and realistic.
Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 12:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.11)

"Pakrat, you would have been right a year ago, since using the military against civilians was illegal then. But last summer the law was changed, supposedly to allow the military to combat potential terrorism here in the USA. Unfortunately, "potential terrorists/terrorism" wasn't very well defined, resulting in the military now having almost total freedom to intervene in domestic LE situations. This could be good, or bad, depending on what happens down the road."
 

Flash, please explain what law was changed and how it squares with the Constitution. I don't recall any new Constitutional amendments being passed recently. Of course, I might have been sleeping but friend Bravo would certainly have noticed! :)

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 13:33:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.29)

Sniper Foo Rant Mode returning to neutral.
 
 
 

Good Jen - Get the Eagle Drag Bag/ Mat combination (In Review) and BE HAPPY. Ask Patron Pablito about them if you don't believe me. Great for field carry, but lose them before commencing a stalk.
Both Slug Boy and Master Rick had some ASTUTE comments on them about two weeks ago (Archieves) that are definately worth reading.
 
 

Its Cardio time...............Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:22:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.212)

Select fire and LEO. No place on the street for a machine gun. Most of us can't hit dick with our hand gun, let alone a machine gun. Liability is too high for stray rounds to hit an innocent bystander. We are allowed to carry AR/Bushy with a low powered optic system. Also 9mm carbines with iron sights (a RRRRRRRRRRRRRUUURRRGGGGH carbine). .223 is largest caliber allowed.
 
 

Be safe.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:23:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.5.38)

Select fire and LEO. No place on the street for a machine gun. Most of us can't hit dick with our hand gun, let alone a machine gun. Liability is too high for stray rounds to hit an innocent bystander. We are allowed to carry AR/Bushy with a low powered optic system. Also 9mm carbines with iron sights (a RRRRRRRRRRRRRUUURRRGGGGH carbine). .223 is largest caliber allowed.
 
 

Be safe.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 14:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.5.38)

Rod, that rifle became what is known as the .308Towed (my wife named it). Since then, all the deviling that I took, lead to most of the heavy rifles in this crowd being known as 'towed rifles'

Ask Pablito about 'towed' rifles....once he gets his .50 out of jail

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 15:07:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

check the link for Swiss Munitions, I visited their booth at the IWA show yesterday. Good stuff. They will send some samples for my next Class.

..............

Pretoria Metal Presses ( PMP)

I just bought a case of 1.400 surplus 155 Grain 7,62X51 at 18 Cents a pop. Marius any info on this stuff ?

I was looking at fodder for my "hole in the barrel, case throwing, M14"

t
click here for Swiss Munitions Website <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 15:13:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.151)

Pakrat, live in the DFW area......what militia group/s were you guy's having problems with......
Don't recall any problems with Militia groups around the metroplex.???

Flash, except of undercover ops, and the aforementioned fire scenarios.....you are dead on.

Only the Lone Ranger got to wear a mask.......And Zorro.

Mask's usually only remind me of one thing....Hoodlums, and thieves........nuff' said.

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:00:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.182)

Thanks for the help

Andy
Andy Mussack <scoutsniper15@yahoo.com>
Clifton Springs, NY, USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:34:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.53)

What do you call the white or light brown face above the blue or black vest? Target indicator.... Unless you would prefer a facepaint.
That smacks of militarization. Further, people spray all sorts of stuff at us nowadays. I would try to protect my skin a bit. The Avon lady just doesn't sell a makeup that suits me............

However, I agree that a mask may be used unnecessarily(the cool factor?). A SWAT raid is not one of those times though. To conceal a UC identity-definatly.
To go on a call to break up a loud crowd? NO. When (if) it turns into a riot- YES. . Protection is the key.

Honestly- I wear a green or white insulated one while sniping in the cold season for warmth. Perhaps you guys understand my reasoning now.

Packrat- No S*&$!!! Have you guys ever tried the 12 ga. launchable flashbangs?

Mike T

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Saturday, March 10, 2001 at 16:39:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)