March 2001

Of course, if your KZ is some open spot in a trail in the boonies, you got a whole different problem. Thats where the laser, map, or triangulation methods let you get a range card setup. Now when the target appears, the spotter just points him out with the range and wind call.

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it.

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 00:11:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

Using that information, let us take this scenario from start to finish.

I have sneaky peted to my FFP which is a a tree line overlooking the Elephant Valley. I am positioned in the edge of a large expanse of rice patties with an elevated dike "about" 700 yards away beyond that another 1000 yards or so of rice patties.

First question: What do I mil to know that the dike is about 700 yards away?

I spot a company sized element of VC approaching the dike about 2000 yards away. They are coming on slowly without a care in the world.

Question two: When do I start milling?

Question three: What do I mil?

Question four: If they are moving, how do I adjust for the movement and assure a first shot kill?
 
 
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 00:54:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.118.227)

The L42 is a fine British vintage weapon, which sported a x3 scope (designed for a Bren gun, not sniping incidentally) It has a beautiful feel to the bolt operation (which I still believe is better than that of the L96) However the L96 came with a x6 scope only because the MOD specified the 'New rifle' had to match the L42's performance.
This has left us Brits with a poor german post type x6 scope for years. Only now after experience in Bosnia and Kosovo have the MOD decided to upgrade to a x3 - 12 variable telescopic sight (complete with mil dot reticule, Parallax adaptor and internal range stadia)
A friend of mine from 'Hereford' converted his L42 to take a x10 scope with Mil dots. The main problem he found was finding someone to adapt the rings to the screw on type used on the L42 (however I don't for-see that as a problem in the USA)
The weapon work a treat to the normal distances designed for the L42, 600m (540yds)but remember the L42 was merely a No 4(T) converted to 7.62mm and hence not a precision weapon such as the Accuracy International weapons.
If you want to use the weapon to its full I would suggest x10 at least and not the x6, Mil dots are fine on a variable scope and should not cause any worries.
When we were taught on the L42 back in 1984 we used to put rubber eye peices around the scope to prevent 'Sniper eye' during stressful times when fatigue and pressure of 'Ops' give you more to worry about than recoil.
We also used to tape a small F/Feild dressing to the upper sling swivel, this was grasped during the use of the Hawkins position, the favoured sniper position at the time (although this was actually designed for 'range sniping' and on Ops it is a lucky man who gets to use this position with any frequency. The fluid battle feild and change of terrain often mean the sniper needs to be higher, hence the old improvised tripod & bean bag combination is a God send!
Slightly of track but hopefully of interest and may help you in making your choice?

All the best
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:08:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

Sorry to butt in But if you think the Coy sized element is 2000m away and you wish to hit them at 700m get your Map out and confirm the distances. Map reading is a core Sniper skill and its not just for making your way up country!

Sorry to be cynical, but I couldn't help myself, debate is Good!
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@vrigin.net>
England - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:23:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

I hate all this arguing can we just forgive ignorance and move on? All the argueing makes it hard to communicate meaningful info, for this reason I apologize to who ever for calling them a fool.
 

But as far as the red box I am pretty sure it is winchesters.
And my stating that marlin is realated to winchester was a mistake on my part it only cunfused all people that don't agree.

Who said anything about a Stealth? MY WORDS:

"What fool doesn't know what kind of rifle comes in a RED box, besides MARLINS (same
company anyway)???"

The word I used was BESIDES marlins, jacka55, this is why I have explained that apparently I have the silly notion that winchester bought out Marlin. I hope someone will agree it seemes logical as they are the only makes of popular lever actions.

Now that I am done seeing who said what lets try and behave and share information insted of twisting each others words back and forth OK!
 
 

Respectfully,
Will
Big Will <http://www.madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:27:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.233.17)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:40:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

ERK?! Shoot you down? Nada. I was OFFERING what little knowledge I have to you and anyone else that wants it.
 
 

"Didn't mean to cunfuse anyone by saying 223/5.56 just a habit."

Most of us gas gunners use the terms interchangeably. There's nothing wrong with that. Again, I am passing on what I have learned from others. It is referred to as sharing.
 
 

"I seem to have the foolish idea that .223s don't eat barrels out like Magnums do they have a BIG difference in case capacity. For example 300winmag : it takes 61 gr. of imr4895 to push a 180gr SMK only 2822fps
223: takes only 24.5gr. of the same powder to push a 69 gr. SMK 2710fps

I was mearly suggesting that the lesser powder capacity of the 223 would permit longer barrel life in any weapon chambered for that round. "

I can't speak to a 7mm Mag or 300WM since I don't shoot them. All I said was that a milspec .223/5.56 cartridge runs down that barrel at 3,100 fps. That's pretty damn fast and will tend to cause substantial wear, hence the chrome lining for durability. From what I understand, some of these magnum loads DO chew up barrels.
 
 

"Next time don't get so defensive...."

I didn't. You got too sensitive and took it personally.
 
 

"....I don't know as much as you GRANTED,"

You might be surprised. Brother Two Shoes was kind enough :-) to remind me that Colt hasn't chrome lined their non-military/LE barrels for years. I keep forgetting that I am the proud owner of a sacrocinct Colt preban. Of course, TS, there's always Bushmaster!
 
 

"I am new to rifles I am old to shotguns though not that I am a load wizard for them either, or do I claim to be a big expert."

Always the student.
Sometimes the teacher.
Never the expert.
And I don't cast stones. Except at "Bad Kevin."

Chill out, dude.

Moe
 
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.181)

Hmmmmmmmm?
'Lito, questionable lineage Red Boxes, Bronco Bustin...........
Naw we won't go there ;-)
 
 

Doug,
Don't waste time with the 220's go 190gr @2900 fps and BE HAPPY!!!!!!!!
 
 

Chaoski
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
A LITTLE RIBAWLD IN BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 01:58:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.184)

Laser, map, aerial photography, previous experience in the area, triangulation using mils (not cosine), miling something that was in the area or something halfway to the area. Aerial photography is actualy used extensively as ranging on a photo is very easy and extremely accurate. You take the focal length of the lens in inches (6 inches) and ratio that by the altitude of the aircraft in inches (5000 feet equals 60000). This gives you a ratio (1:10000) that allows you to measure distances very well. In this example 1 inch equals 10000 inches (833 feet)this info is printed on the aerial photo. You would also have ranged on a number of target reference points and logged them on your range card for the purpose of “fun and games.” Again an aerial photo would help greatly(or a map).

When do you mil – as soon as you can get a good reading and start reading the mil calls to your observer. He is computing wind holds and when you have a high hit probability or when you can safely “harass the little beggers”. High probability is close, safe harassment is far. You start to get a reading of 1.4 to 1.5 and you can figure on a target between 675 and 714 so dial 7 minus one and let the guy hold 175 grains of technology. If you want to have a high hit probability you had better wait to a reading of 1.8 to 1.9 mils and then dial 550 and have a ball. This is of course assuming the wind gods are not screwing with the bullet a lot at that time and the target is not moving erratically across your front.

Alternatively, you have several TRPs and you let them walk into an area that you know the range and then you have a target rich environment that permits fun to be had by all.

I agree with Slugboy that there are a number of methods that you must learn to rely on to range on the target area.

HDR – Actually the students graduated were ran through the ringer by 7th SFG(A) and I was only there for validation for their course. My job was to throw monkey wrenches when they got too comfortable with the job. :-)

Well enough math for me tonight.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 02:04:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.64)

Anybody happen to have an armorer's manual for HK-91 style rifles (or info where to get one) ?

Regards,

Ares
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, Ohio, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 02:11:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.230.183)

Didn't even think about the fact that I probably wouldn't be going into an AO that I didn't have some kind of map or other means of topographical or height relationship. The airplane thing really got me.

You guys are going to rip me a new one at the match this year. Me thinks that I will be an observer and learn for the next match. Now that I know where the stalk lanes are, me and Rob could team up and do a number on you dudes.
 

Back to learning and studying, Bolt out again!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 02:19:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.118.227)

Please give me strength to continue preaching to those unwashed masses(.300 Mag Shooter's) that they may see the light and be allowed to through the Pearly Gates vice the
Wes Howe (The Reverend) <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 02:49:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.89)

Stealths are made by Winchester, so they come in Big Red boxes (that didn't sound so good. Actually, it sounds real good... hey Lucy, come over here!! ;)

Winchester also makes the more popular line of centerfire lever actions, and rimfires too.
 

Doug...
The Lupita brochure says that the 300WM cam is for the 220 at 2650... but it is NOT.
It is for the 190SMK at 2950 [They now admit that in the engineering dept, but haven't done anything about it yet to the public yet) :((

Nobody that I've heard of, makes an OTC 220 gr match load for the 300WM.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 03:04:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.55)

You can adjust the trigger for free, and they are usually very good (and easy to adjust). If you want better than that, you gotta make a big jump up, and get a "Jewel" trigger... will run about $200 to $220, but they are out-friggin'-standing!!

Don't waste your money on Timmney's and such... they're no better than the factory trigger.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 03:13:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.55)

Slugboy, welcome back. Glad to see our first regular Brit poster ain't a crap-hat! Does the UK Army still have the Sniper's Badge for the course and qualification?

Bolt, if they're that far away, and you can see them, why give away your position with a rifle? Call in the 81s, 105s, or 155s, and use a combat mix of HE and WP (also called a "Shake and bake" -- hell, for a whole company, I'm sure they'd throw in airburst or proximity fuzes for free). That way you've never compromised your position, and you roll up the whole company.

Doc, I think anything past 1,000 yards really gets problematic. You can use a 16X M1, or a 4.5-15, but a 10X M1 or M3 probably won't give you enough resolution farther out than that to give precise mil'ling on indistinct targets with the dots. With the higher magnifications you'll get a more magnified view of your target for more precise mil-sizing, but you also may have to interpolate your mil-dot sizing because of mirage distortion.

Sinister <david.liwanag@usarec.army.mil>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 04:09:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

Reverend Wes: Your 6.5 sounds like its a lot easier to hit with. As a hunter, when I hit 'em they have to go down. That's different from you guys involved in social work.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 04:24:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Charlie: I didn't like the Ruger auto, for a few reasons. I see one just about every month on the line, and yes, my Glock does a number on him. As for "spray and pray", I found there is a time. For "across the table" distances, I can point fire moderately well (16/18 in an IDPA "zone", the other 2 shots were in the -1 ring, weakhand only) in blazingly fast speed. As for accurate fire, I doubt there's anyone that would want to stand up or even hold still at long handgun ranges. With either one, headshots at 25 yards are far from the exception to the rule. And as for comparing a M-14 to a Ruger, I ALMOST take offense to that.

Slugboy: good to see you back here! You're always welcome as CDC says.

Bolt: I carry standard USGS maps in my ruck, even when it's a tiny one for hunting. Easier to make terain judgements, and you never get lost LOL. I prefer the topo lines, but some don't. If I were in the lowlands, it wouldn't help any anyways, but I'm in basically a valley between mountain ranges, so there's always something good to triangulate off of. Oh, and don't forget those danged ziplock bags. I don't know who came up with the waterproofing for the map pocket of the ALICE, but it DONT work. I used to laminate them, but it's more hassle than it's worth the majority of times. I prefer the ziplock gallon size personally. When I was doing instead of playing, I preferred the lamination because you can draw on it with a grease pencil and make notes on the map. But now I'm playing, not doing ;-) Oh, and if you get into this stuff in defense of our great country (although I don't know where rice paddies are around here in the desert LOL), please send me a written invitation. You'll need a spotter, and that might be my ticket into the Order of the Raven. Isn't that a good "kit shakedown"? HA! Oh, while the USGS maps are a touch expensive, you can get them in different scales to match what you're doing, which I like. Besides, once you have them, you've got them, and if you're like me, a vast majority of your fun is in the same several map areas anyway.

Big Will and Michael: thanks for the concern, I'm just lurking more, and leaving the good stuff to the real experts, one of whom, I'm certainly not. But I do read it every day, after all, I want to learn good stuff too! Still working on becoming a great spotter.....

Sir Wes: your spotters rifle is "in the bag". You, my friend, are gonna be WAY impressed. Good luck on getting some great glass to go with it. Geoff does a hell of a great job. Now, how can I help you convert these heathens? HA! My 6.5 Swede is something I can shoot all day. Not a 300!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
We'll see how Mel did in "THE PATRIOT", tomorrow night, the occupied UN zone called the USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 05:19:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.136)

2 Shoes
Sandman time......
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 05:20:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.204)

Guide gun? How about the 1895 Limited Marlin. Holds lots more boolets in the tube than the guide gun. .45-70 hits that steel like you threw a brick. I caught the frame of a discarded television set at 100 and it just about went into orbit. Works very well. Haven't shot my Sharps since I got it. It's a lifelong keeper. The 1895, as well as all my Marlins, came in a brown cardboard box.
 

Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
SanDiegonista, Kalifornistan, somewhat in the USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 05:34:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.110.41)

$0.02 worth.
Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Sandiegonista, Kalifornistan, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 05:38:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.110.41)

Can't wait for the sun to start shining, the prairie dog population needs a dent put in it!!!

I'm outta here,
Ben
 

Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 06:13:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.188)

Can't wait for the sun to start shining, the prairie dog population needs a dent put in it!!!

I'm outta here,
Ben
 

Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 06:15:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.188)

Dudes! Long time no speak! In case some of you have wondered what happened to www.sniperhide.com; it vanished. We can now be found at:
http://run.to/sniperhide or at http://www.aspiringtech.com/sniperhide.

We want to thank Aspiringtech for hosting our site this way!

For now, the contents haven't changed, but there's new stuff on the way.

Thank you for you attention.

Stefan
Stefan, Marco & Arend <sniperhide@run.to>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 06:52:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 213.46.159.37)

CDC...
"Heavy Bitch Varmint sums it up pretty well."
Yup... if the women in my life treated me half s good as my M70 HBV's, sheep wouldn't look so good ;)

Two Shoes...
You forgot "Cats and Dogs living together" ;)... sorry, won't do it again.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Beware of the man with ONE GUN... cuz he's pissed at the world... his wife won't let him buy anymore!, - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 09:27:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.54)

drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 12:52:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.70.187.218)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 13:53:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

The revolver load I mentioned previously is a 357 MAGNUM MAXIMUM LOAD. (10gr of Blue Dot, 158gr Speer Gold Dot JHP, loaded in 357 Mag cases.)

It is NOT a 38 special load, and if loaded in 38 cases and fired in a 38 it could ruin the gun and possibly injure the shooter.

While safe and exceptionally accurate in my 357 Mag, it may not be in yours. Start 10% lower and work up cautiously.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 15:41:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.14)

Check out the Article on Canadian Gun Registration in the March ed. of America's 1st Freedom.
 
 
 

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 15:55:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Lets see a big turn out at the SMTC match this year.. Anyone up for SS3 or HRP ???
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 16:19:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

A few things.

One is I have met John Jardine (trained by his uncle Armand Swensen) and shot the Valtro 1911. I shot the Valtro against the Springfield TRP. A total of approx 1700 rds were shot without cleaning in four hours between the two pistols by me. No question the Valtro is the finest production 45 I have ever used. I say this after going into this with the idea that the Springfield would kick its butt. Man was I wrong. The more I shot both the more I liked the Valtro. In the end I shot 250 through the Springfield and 1450 through the Valtro.

This is not to say the Springfield is not a good pistol. The Springfield is a great pistol, but damm Jardine knows what he is doing. He spec'd every bit of this pistol. He has checked every bit of it and will not let anything but the best get by him. When I picked up the Valtro(1199.00 retail) it was like picking up a 3,000.00 plus hand built pistol. Kimber look out Valtro has just done to you what you did to Colt!

I will be doing a review of the pistol in detail in the near future. I need to shoot a few, hell 10,000 more rounds through it, but for now it is in my holster.
 

On the next note. My website is now hosted by Ken Hunter, the same that hosts SC. If you have web needs Ken is excellent to deal with. A great guy and one hell of a shooter. He is only better at being a team player and nice guy. Cant say enough good about him. Pablito and I agree on this.LOL

I spoke with Jim MItchell yesterday and I am looking forward to meeting him in person in July. This website is full of good guys.

Class in July is full and we have started a waiting list. James and I have talked and we are going to run more classes next year and work together on a Carbine and Pistol class in addition to rifle classes.

Take care all

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 16:34:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.131)

Yes, we still use the crossed rifle badge with the 'S' above it. This is sewn to the right wrist for Sniper (Basic, badge tested) and on the right upper arm of Sniper Instructors (above chevrons)
This said few people in my unit actually wear the badge, we have enough on display already, chevrons, DZ Flashes, wings and Bde Patches. Its not that we aren't proud of being Snipers its just that we don't feel the urge to advertise the fact to those outside the unit who don't need to Know (Roster accepted)
I personally do not have complete faith in the Sniper badge system. The tests are all spot on but I've seen the effects of this system over the last 20 years. The test to be 'Badged' is a couple of days of going through all of the skills taught and practiced during the sniper course. Too often I have seen troops who have been piss poor during the six week build up manage to 'get lucky' during the Badge test, these have then been classed as Snipers. On the flip side I've seen sound, consistant guys fail one skill on the badge test and not classify as Snipers.
Now I'm in a better position to effect who is chosen for the section in my Bn., I use the badge test as a guide to standards throughout the cadres and select the most consistant with the best apptitude for the job

Badges! who needs stinkin Badges!
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 16:41:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

I can tell you from expreience though that the 168 match in the 30s and the 165s tracked really close in my 300WM and 308s but then you probably have more experience with the hunting bullets than I do.

I would think that a the GameKing would probably track closer to the 140MK than the 142s. I have nothing to base this on other than the difference in how the 140s and 142s fly. I would guess that within realistic hunting ranges there probably wouldn't be a nickles worth of difference.

In my 260s the 142s fly nearly 1-MOA flatter past 800yds than the 140s or the 140AMAXs do. Maybe Wes can add something more to this on his esperiences with the 6.5x284 he has.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 17:14:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Pat: Bull elk. Right now I'm using a sporter weight .338 with 250 gr Nosler partitions. I wouldn't be comfortable hunting them with a 6.5. The 6.5 sounds about ideal for deer.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 17:18:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Why wait until SOF, well some I'm not yet at liberty to discuss so I'll fill you in on the story behind the picture in the Gallery take in Kosovo.
Basically my unit was asked to provide an overt Sniper coverage of Pristinas centre (around the Grand hotel) in order to deter any attempt of attack against Mad.,Albright on her initial visit to the capital.
I recce'd the area with some guy from the British Metropolitan Police who did this sort of task for a living. I did expect him to lead the way, but once I began speaking of angle shooting and interlocking arcs he decided to leave it to me.
With the recce complete we deployed to the roof tops (a day later) with positions on six different buildings pretty much sealing all routes in and out. I used my Camelbak fitted with a Karabiner attached to the small wall in the photo for a rest/support. This allowed me to swing through the arcs I needed to cover.
Prior to deployment I'd made up range cards for all of the locations, these showed arcs, ranges and angles for each position. Also each man had Angle charts, wind charts etc.. to safe time when calculations were needed.
The ground was covered by F/Force CS from my unit and various Special agencies.
We set up in good time, having had a problem obbtaining ammo for the task because the decision had been made to remove all weapons of above 5.56mm calibre from the streets to 'lower the aggressive profile' a few weeks earlier. (Our shooting days were deemed as over, its amazing how quickly we made the transition from War wageing to peace keeping) Hence all 7.62mm had been packed (So they were not happy to have to alter their paperwork! REMFS (Rear Ech Mother's)
After the first couple of hours or so, just prior to the appearance of Ms. Albright the dreaded crack of a high velocitly round came winging past my position, dread of dread the worst was about to happen, someone had decided to take us on. I instinctively spun around and found myself pointing at the inner cordon.
This was F/Force area, I had to be wrong, I'd been shot at before in Urban areas, I knew sound echos and often it was hard to pin down the fire from automatic weapons let alone a single shot.
I scan the area trying to ID a fire point, my No 2 was unable to get any positive sightings from any of the Sniper CS on the net. Troops below were following hard and fast in the possible direction of the fire. This seemed to them to be out on the high ground past the Pristina Stadium, the opposite direction to which I had turned but directly in line with the crack which passed my position.
No further shots were fired and the visit continued without further incident. It was discovered that an Albanian had, had a Negligent discharge from the inner cordan this had been the reason things had returned to normal (Although no one informed us until after the visit)
Lessons learnt:
Trust your instinct, Ensure comms between ground troops and Snipers is maintained (They do tend to forget about us unless pressured)
and don't be suprised when some vet (Falklands in this case, Sniper trained as well) Fucks you off for ammo (we had to scream, shout and kick ass for it, One Officer said, I quote 'You know as well as I do you won't fire a round')

Who needs Enemies, we have enough trouble fighting polititians!
Hope this is of interest
Slugboy
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 17:21:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)

Are our rifles too heavy?
Is 10X magnification really needed?

In the field is a 13-15 lb. SWS really warranted?

What would be compromised if one were to field a 9 lb. SWS mounting a 6X scope?

Have we adopted a SWS designed to perform well on the field fire range while overlooking the fact that a lighter weapon system might be better suited for actual combat operations?

For instance, if it is to be a "one shot war" why the emphasis on the very heavy barrel contours. I know the heavy platforms mitigate pulse effects etc. but have we gone too far?

Have we compromised in favor of the heavy gun because it can be fired a lot and not shift POI during training while overlooking the fact that we've now burdened the soldier with an extra 5-6 lbs to carry.

A fixed 10X scope with the narrow field of view is a hindrance to the sniper when confronted with close range fleeting targets. Variable power scopes have yet to find their way to the military inventories. Wouldn't a 6X scope be a reasonable compromise?

All this written by a guy who is about to take delivery on a M40A1. I hope I havn't made a mistake. I know that with my new rig I'll be competative at a sniper match. I'm just not sure that I've bought the best SWS for real world use.

I'm wondering if the ".308 Towed" rifles so popular today at sniper matches and in the military aren't the sniper community equivalent to a compensated IPSC race gun.

Now in defilade @ MOPP 4...
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 18:25:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Elk rifles, Deer rifles, etc.......It's not the size of the cartridge that matters as much as familiarity. By that I mean familiarity with the game that you're after, the area that you're hunting, and the rifle and load that you're shooting. I have good friends in this area (W. Colo. Rockies) that are native to these mountains and take their Elk with a .22-250 EVERY YEAR, with no losses! I wouldn't do it myself nor would I recommend it to anyone else, but it goes to prove that IMHO the hunter kills the game, not the ballistics table. I also hunt with guys that use the .338, .375, and .300 Magnums and those cartridges always do right by them, as long as the hunter does his part. As for me, I regularly use the .30-'06 with 180gr. Nosler Partitions for Elk, and I don't do any better or any worse than the varmint caliber shooters or the Magnum guys. Almost thirty years of hunting this country backs that up for me.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 18:27:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.45)

In Sweden the hunters kill more than 50.000 elks EVERY year with rifles mostly chambered in 6.5X55 Swedish. The ranges are usually short, 50-100 yards, but the elks do go down easily when the hit is where it should be.

The bull elks in the USA are bigger so of course a bigger bullet is better, but 6.5X55 is a pretty darn good round with 140-160 grein game bullets.

So do not discount the 6.5 to be a Deer-only caliber. Of course every hunter should use a calibre he is confident with so choose whatever you want to. I would pick 9.3X62 for Elk medicine in Europe but I do not hunt.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 19:02:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

As far as heavy barrels go, they seem to keep their accuracy a lot longer than the smaller contour #3, 5 or 7, especially in the magnums, and they seem to hold up better when banged around and dropped. Hell a little nick in one of those thin M16 barrels or a little heat from auto/rapid fire could send the round way off target when trying to shoot 50 yds away. I agree with you it probably has something to do with barrel life and the amount of training rounds going through the barrel, but I think I would rather carry the extra weight and know I'm on target even after shooting 50 rounds or so. There's just something about heavy barrels that keeps their precision consistently time after time. It would be great to think it's always a one shot deal and I'm the winner but it doesn't always come out that way. LOL

You sound like your in the market for a new 50 cal. towed. (by a truck)

You going to do the trainup with Andy this year????
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 19:38:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

If someone prefers something else, use it. You'll get no arguement from me.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 20:22:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Andy and I plan to be at the train-up and the Rendezvous. We've celebrated Andy's birthday at SMTC the last few years and he always looks forward to taking time off school to go visit his "Uncle Rod".

Because I'm well past twenty and peak physical shape I'm training Andy real hard. He's my designated spotter/sherpa.

I wonder how much of the performance envelope of a M40A1 could be covered with a well built 9 lb. SWS with a 6X scope.
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, March 01, 2001 at 21:51:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

We'll be out this weekend setting up two new UKD ranges for the Precision Rifle classes here at Gunsite. Next class is Apr 2-6, anyone on the Roster attending?

Ran into a set of Lightforce sloped Weaver bases that were milled and drilled so off center, used up all but 2 minutes of windage in a 4.5x14 Leupold to zero. Leupold bases and MWG base worked fine. Anyone ever look at the ATN Mark 4 style rings that screw down on both sides, providing windage adjustment? How in the world do you get that to work without twisting the scope tube so bad the lenses pop out?

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it
CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 00:23:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

The current issue M40A1 weighes 14.5lbs. Call it 15lbs loaded with a scope cover, and I think it's bordering the edges of too heavy. I think about 12.5lbs loaded is plenty. Humping 100lbs of gear when I can hump 90 instead is stupid. Those extra pounds don't buy you anything, and they could cost you. As I brought up earlier and Rick said, the USMC is looking too much at what the civilian 'tactical shooters' are doing and not enough at what the grunts in the field are doing. Quantico has never called us, never E-mailed us, never faxed, no bulletins, nothing, nada. My active buddies out on the west coast don't hear from them either. I'm talking guys who run the 1st Reg prep school, and guys who work the SS platoons for the Bn's. You'd think they at least hear of somebody getting a call. But no, Quantico just decides to do what they want and we(the guys using them) will make do. The new rifle is going to weigh 18.5 f**king pounds without the suppressor!!! That's stupid! You are going to have this hyper developed right forearm from humping this thing. Everybody gets all orgasmic over the 1000+yd shots. You know what? My longest shot was 1100yds out at Rng 400 at 29 Palms. It took me four rounds to get on, and I was going about 30% from then on depending on the wind shifts. I NEVER would have tried that IRL unless it was pretty hopeless. BG's shoot back. Most of the work is going to be done at 400-750yds, past 800 you're usually just playing semi-serious unless conditions are very good. We're adding 5lbs of weight to pick up the last 10% of capability and I think it's dumb. What's so hard about making a hardened 12.5lb rifle? Nothing. The Palma countours seem to handle long strings of fire without shifting zero due to heat. You want to use a barrel as a crowbar, go buy a crowbar. I baby my gun. Yes, it has to be environment resistant, it has to be hardened. It doesn't need to double as the boat anchor for a LCU.
As for scopes, 10x is too much, 6x would be fine for 99% of all missions and would be better for most of them. I'm pretty sure the grunts would break variables, but I have several on my own guns. The new scope rail on the M40A3 looks like it'll be a winner if they can get the SL-3 gear down to the platoons and get the guys up to speed on how to use it. The NSN ACOG from the M4 SOPMOD kit would be great for 95% of the urban stuff we do, where the 223 just isn't enough bullet. Enough ranting. Semper Fidelis...
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 00:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

You obviously have a decent knowledge of your weapons but I have to find fault with your lack of logic or common sense in not buying glasses instead of weaponry and ammo. Eyesight is THE most important sense to a shooter. You are doing yourself and those that shoot with you a great dis-service by not correcting your vision so that you can see what you are shooting at. Me thinks that you need to adjust your priorities.

Sometimes I wonder about the next generation, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 00:53:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.40)

Given the desire to work at longer ranges, I don't have a problem with 10x. Snap shots are a bit more effort, but a good mount and some practice can work that out in short order. I think that 6x, or even 4x, is quite good for a PD precision marksman. I can only find three instances of shooting past 125 yards for a PD, the max being 320. 4x is perfectly adequate to make shots at 400, hell my 3 MOA dot Aimpoint on an M4 can hit a Pepper Popper at 300 just fine, it's 1x. Since the shortest shot I know is 14 yards, and the majority of shots are taken < 100, the extra field of view for that job is quite welcome. PD's get good use of a variable, military guys don't need it. If you don't need it, why put up with the additional modes of failure?

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 00:56:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

I wanted to ask if there is anyone here that knows if the Robar SR90 is currently being used by any law enforcement agencies or militaries anywhere worldwide. If so, I am interested in what kind of track record it has with any of these organizations. I have seen the rifle many times but I never see it listed with any agencies or anything.

Thanks for replying,

Ralf
Ralf <sledghamr@aol.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 01:28:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.117.152.15)

The Sniper is a tool - the team must report information, and if they must shoot it should be for priority tgt's and even @400m it is easier to tell an officer with a 10x than a 6x.

Charlie I think you misread it was not trigger pull but SWS weigth reduction
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 01:48:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.143)

Thanks
Charlie

Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
Jonesboro, AR, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 02:24:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.191.252.17)

I'll put in my two cents worth on the scope issue.

First, unless you're in the military, your chances of seeing/using a Unertl 10X is almost 'nil. Except for a few samples released and some Canadian models that were sold. Solid gear, but heavy, and now dated.

I've used fixed and variables. Both have their places. I like the variable for LE and Varminting for several reasons. Foremost among them is the average shooting is about 80 yards. Do we need side focus and 10X power for that...NO, IMHO. The variable allows you to change for distance and conditions. I've use them successfully for years. A good clear 6X would fit the bill here, as well. Additionally, the lower power offers wider field of view. Something needed for short range fluid sitiuations.

The MK IV 10X M1 has proven excellent on my M40A1 clone. Although the adjustment turrets turn a bit harder to turn than I'd like. Both a down side and a plus. The plus being that they don't get knocked out of alignment easily. The are rugged and proven. The are "affordable" at just over $1K dealer cost. Don't forget mounts are part of the system.
Badger is the way to go, IMHO.

My Chandler Super Sniper sports a Vari-X III 3.5 x 10X M1 w/Mil-Dot reticle and 30mm tube. Very clear, . Thes well, and provides superb repeatability. It is one of my picks of the litter.

Lastly, for the spotter, I like a variable or fixed 6X. The have a spotting scope with far more power than their rifle has...hence, no need for high power scopes.

Picked up a discontinued Luppie MK IV 6X M3 w/Mil-Dot today for a VERY reasonable price. It will go on my M25 system. I'll smile and be happy.

My opinion only. If you agree please send .02 cents to...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 02:25:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.43)

Weapon weight, the weapon becomes heavier as you increase the ruggedness of the weapon. There is a limit and I feel the Marines went too far. They are using a lot of material that is just plain overkill. Another issue on the weapon weight is that a heavier weapon is more stable in a shooting position. Again this has limitations and has that magic point of diminishing returns, again I believe that the Marines leapt over that line as well. The heavy barrel of the weapon increases stability of the weapon, lowers barrel whip, decreases barrel droop especially in the desert, and aids in prevention of barrel deformation (bent barrel from exiting aircraft and impacting on ground). Last but not least, a heavier weapon stays on target and permits a rapid follow on shot when necessary when a lighter weapon would have problems. Also there are situations when One Shot, One Kill denotes accuracy not the mission! As you can see the negatives far out weight the chance to move with a lighter weapon. The young studs can do it nicely with minimal threats and promises of Valhalla with its virgins! In conclusion, nope you did as good as a Marine style weapon will do. :-)

Tony – I will take the big crew served knife over a little pickle sticker anyday. Never stab what you can lop off!

Bill – I agree that tactical means you have to strike and move but it is a pain when you strike and miss because your equipment was made with comfort in mind. :-) I agree on the over 14x and would counsel against over ten in most situations. The variable in the 2.5 to 10x is good. I like the lower end for certain “tasks” and that is why I go that way instead of the 4.5 by 14. I have seen mirage eat the image up so bad that the target is doing the shimmy shimmy coco pop!

Doug – Once you have the cold weather shift set in the zero then the rest of the come ups are valid as long as the weather does not change, just remember and log the shifts for each temp change. As an example, you must come down 1 moa for each 20 degrees from 100 to 500 yards.

Ken – Agree and disagree, have shot the lower power scopes and was not happy at all. Used the 6x Unertl and 2.5x M84 scopes. In a world of confusing patterns, at range the lower powers miss too much. The spotter sees but can’t get you on because you can’t see. The variable is the way to go and I do think the newer ones will survive the three steel ball bearing test. WE are looking at another scope that is a 2.5 to 6x for the SOPMOD upper sniper support/observer weapon. It works nicely!

Cory – I must disagree with you on the 9lb 6x. I will do much more with the 10x in many field situations due to target resolution and the requirement to positively ID the target. I think you would have trouble with your 3moa aim point in a field situation where the target is being a pain to find and aim on. The same holds true with the lower powers, been there, done that and hated it. Have the Marines gone over board, by all means and by every measure of sanity. They have only not put custom mirror and leather seats on the monster.

Ralf – Used the Robars, in 7mm Mag, in Saudi with the Royal Guard Counter Snipers protecting the King of that lovely country.

On the LEA front, again the statements for the lower power has problems in that you still need positive Identification. An example, BG has knit balaclava, looks out of window numerous times, decision is to take the dummy out on the next look see. Balaclava, dark jacket, has to be the target, opps stand of red hair sticking out form under the mask. This actually occured and it saved a young lady AND the other hostages due to a very irate BG had the shot gone down. There are reasons in the field for the choices made on many items. Again the Marines went over that fine line betwixt hard and stupid. No actually they leapt mightily over that sucker.

Out here and sorry for the long post. Ate a bit of band width here.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:07:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.106.34)

THANKS

KC
Dallas
KC <swatcop911@msn.com>
dallas, tx, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.22.205.197)

It has been quite some time since I posted anything here - well over a year. Have been lurking around for a few days now, looking at the recent posts and trying to catch up on some of the archives - LOTS of reading! Really nice to see familiar names on here still.

OK - I haven't bought a new gun for almost 2 years now and I'm starting to think that maybe I really NEED one of those Winchester M-70 Stealth rifles!! But, I don't feel any great need to have one that is chambered for .223 Rem, .22-250 or .308 Win. I THINK that a M-70 Stealth chambered for the new 300 WSM would be just the ticket! Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this new cartridge? Have any of you heard anything about Winchester possibly offering the Stealth chambered for this cartridge? Any info would be appreciated.

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:26:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.143.43)

Big knife vs small: Big knives chop. Little ones don't. Chopping is necessary. And it is a BOWIE knife, designed by Sam Bowie and used to gruesome effect by his famous brother. Sylvester Stallone was nowhere to be found. Don't let Hollywood take over your brain.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

THANKS FOR ALL THGE HELP GUYS, THIS DUMB OLD COP NEEDS ALL THE ADVICE HE CAN GET !!

KC, DALLAS

kc <swatcop911@msn.com>
dallas, tx, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:37:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.30.41.13)

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 03:51:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 04:30:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.186)

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 04:33:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 04:55:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

I don't see that target ID is compromised at the ranges ( < 300 ) where a shot with hostages might be involved. All other things being equal, a 6x is brighter than a 10x. The 10x IS better in the 600 + yard area, especially with small targets. It lets you get a more refined aiming point for sure. However, considering the average hit probability on partial targets in excess of 600 yards, then improvement is marginal. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE 10x for a military sniper. I don't see 6x as being an improvement, just not a big impediment. I prefer a 3.5x-10x variable for PD work, since you can dial down in darkeness or close range. I'd say 6x is also a fine choice for that mission, and I'd have no problems with fielding such a unit.

Certainly there is some personal preferance here, but the question is can it be done. I'd say it can, but I still use 10x myself ;).
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 05:18:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.140.51)

The most renowned moose poacher in Central Maine used a .32-20 bolt action Win. M43 (.32-20 is almost identical to .30 Carbine ballistically).

Low report, and dropped moose effectively. Had to get within about 75 yds., but thats not hard around Millinocket, you can't see past about 25.

Inuit (Eskimos) in Alaska and Canada have used .22 Hornet and .222 Rem. for years on everything from seals to caribou. Cheap, 50 rounds fit in your pocket, etc.

Talked to an elk guide who works the Gila Wilderness in NM, he says the .308 Win. is perfect, all else is overkill, and many times produces flinch which means bad shot placement and lost game.

Point is, the 6.5's and 7x57's and the like, will do fine in the US, IF the shot is properly placed. Better a hit with a 6.5 than a miss with a .338 Lapua.

I doubt that an elk shot through the heart or lungs with a .437 Krackenboomer will die any quicker than if it were hit with a similarly placed shot from a .308 Win.

Just my $0.02.

Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 05:47:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.13)

Hexa, whether elk or moose, 50k sounds like an awful lot of animals for such a small country. Are you sure you've got your numbers right? Sure the 6.5 will kill elk or moose at close to medium range with perfect standing-still broadside shots. But what about running, quartering away shots in thick woods or at long range?

Alan, a 22-250 for elk? You've got to be kidding?

Boys, let me make it plain. A .270 is just about minimum for honest use on elk. Certainly a 22-250 will kill elk under absolutely ideal conditions. So will a 22 rimfire. But nobody who cares about the animal hunts elk with with pip-squeak gopher-gun calibers.

I surely do get upset when someone says that it's the hunter not the caliber, or something similar, and then proceeds to brag up elk hunting with .22's (or .243's). That's absolute nonsense. All "real hunters" use enough gun. And 22's are definately NOT enough gun for elk.

Rant mode off.
 
 
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 06:02:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.12)

I used a 6x w/Mildots for a shoot on the Inch'on range at West Poind Military Academy... only once.
Targets were 6" steel plates, and after the paint was tore off them in the first ten minutes, they were very hard to see, and imposible to mil.
If you are shooting at big, white 20"x40" steel plates in an open field, then 6 will get you by, but the mildots are V-E-R-Y little, and real close together.
If your targets are wearing green and brown grease paint, you need all the "see" you can (consistant with solid shooting).
A 3.5x10 variable M3-LR is real nice, but for a fixed power, I'd take a 10x for all around field conditions.

Lupita used to make a 6x MK4-M4... very nice scope... BOMBED OUT, and dissapeared from the market. I'd put one on a semi-auto spotter's riffle, but otherwise, I would pass.
 

UnDude...
"Pablito and I agree on this"

UnDude-ski! You have to STOP this agreeing stuff... folks are gonna start to talk ;)

Flash...
Counter-Rant in Hexa's defence - 50K Elk is nothing... the snow covered countries are lousy with elk... watch a National Geographic documentary sometime... the elk heards are huge, and can cover the landscape (in more than one way... bring boots ;).
Our own Eskimo's shoot Sea Lions (about 1500 to 2000 pounds) with 223 Rem rifles, and never loose animals... they are "hunters", not "shooters"... and lotsa guys get animals with small calibers.
I'm not advocating being "under gunned" but that's a term that is not fixed... it's skill related.

For a city guy, a 300WM, or 375 H&H may be needed for a broad side shot at 100 to 200 yds... but for a native, or a very good woodsman, a .223 in the ear, from 20 yds, will do it every time. and there are people that do it all the time.

And, of course, there's "Karamojo Bell"... who took nearly 1000 elephant with a Manlicker carbine... in 7mm Mauser.

avgshooter...
Congrats. As CDC said, it is a Winchester "HBV" (Heavy Barreled Varmint)... the stock is made by H-S, and has a aluminum bedding block in it, and it is factory glass bedded. the Stock design is called the"Winchester Marksman", and is possibly one of the best designs ever... first used as a target stock in the 1930's, it was used on sniper rifles from the Pacific campagn in WW2, to Viet Nam... and it is still copied by H-S, McMillen, and several others.
$400... You did GOOD!

Bill Moore...
I have an M70 Featherweight, in .270, with a wood stock, and it's really nice... quality is right up there... everything is really fine.
You should have one... they're good for you ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 09:37:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.104)

Dear Sirs.
 
 
 
 
 
 

The Swedish moose weight is usually between 450 to 1200 pounds. In 1999 102 000 moose were shot in Sweden, most of them with 6.5X55.
 
 

The 6.5X55 is not the first choice for moose, but used wisely with heavy premium bullets it can certainly do the job.
 
 

The reason why the 6.5X55 is so popular in Sweden is that it has low recoil, is accurate, you can get high quality match ammo for half the price of normal training ammo for other caliber’s, it has been a military round and there are still lots of ammo and guns around, the caliber is used by many competition shooters.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

/ Per
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Per <perrep16@hotmail.com>
Sweden - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 10:43:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 138.221.200.106)

Nahh... that thing is real junk - I willl do you and him a favor and offer him $410 - that way you won't be burdened with it :)
 

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <Rogue308@Riflemen.net>
Possible Winter Storm Sun & Mon, in Flakey Northern Va, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 11:39:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

I want to start building my case/presentation on why as a SRT, we need precision riflemen.

It is my goal to be able to present a thesis with supporting documentation from those that are on a team as PR, those that are team commanders and if I can get a administrator or two; why it is necessary to have them, why it's dangerous not to have them, what are expected costs for start up, ROE, SOP's, green light vs sniper initiated engagement, liability, equipment and if possiable actual case information on sniper engagements or sniper involvement on call outs. I would also not rule out having military input.

If any of you would like to assist me in this endeavor, I would be much obliged. Or, if you know who could assist me, please email me privately.

Of course, I cannot remit any renumeration only the satisfaction of bringing a SRT online and providing it with the proper assets.

If any of the astute members of this web site, has contacts for the much recognized names in this business, that would help tremendously.

I look forware to your input and assitance in this worthwhile endeavor.

It's going to be a good ride!

Pakrat
aka - Patrick Sloan
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Hempstead, Tejas, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 12:09:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Can't spell, Texas, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 12:12:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)

Ken: Aren't you the generous one.

Light Rifles: I have a custom Rem 700 Mtn rifle that weighs less than 7 lbs total even with a 1.5 x 6 Ziess on it which probably wieghs 2 lbs by itself in 308. It was built for PA whitetails and black bear. It is a tack driver with 168 or 180 hunting bullets for first or second shot follow ups when needed. It's a great cold bore shooter. But at the range that's a different story, after 10 consecutive rounds that #1 contour 20" barrel heats up and fouls that your lucky if you get 2 MOA at best. If you were to try and shoot something like that at a class like the ones at SMTC you would probably burn the barrel up in a weekend. Granted there is a lot of overkill out there with these 18 - 20 lb towed rifles but for me I'm not the most agile and gentle person out there, even though I would like to think I care for my equipment the same as others, but when climbing rapel towers, running up and down ranges to take various shots on a stress courses, or sitting out in pouring rain all night, you are going to knock the crap out of the rifle and I'd like to think that after shooting a couple hundred rounds by the end of the day that my heavy 17 lb SWS will still hit an 800 yd target consistently. That's what it was designed to do and it works.

What a concept!!! I bring the 7 lb MTN rifle for the Stalk, Movers and Stress and the SWS for the Field fire and Group matches this year. Is it allowed ?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 13:24:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

I've been around Navajos enough to believe every word of this story. If a white guy had told it, I would have KNOWN he was full of s***.

If you hunt like he does, you use a different type of rifle than you use if you hunt like I do.

He uses a .223.

I wouldn't even have shot at the last two elk I killed with less than a .300 Win. I've seen too many run that were hit with a .270.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 13:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.11)

Boys, let me put the "enough gun" question in proper perspective.

While I'm sure we can all agree that .22 rimfires have killed an awful lot of people, especially fired out of El Cheapo RG's in the inner city, would any of you carry one for self-defense in preference to a 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 357 Mag, etc.?

Then why would you advocate using .223's and 22-250's on 600-800 pound elk? Not that .22's won't work under ideal conditions. They will. But I'd sure have to question the mental capacity of anyone intentionally choosing a .22 for elk, just as I would anyone carrying a .22 RF for defense.

Maybe we should get real here? Experts who have a choice don't use substandard weapons for defense, sniping, targets or hunting. Only amateurs and lame-brains do.

As for Indians, I happen to be part Indian and know for a fact that many Indians are poor and hunt with whatever gun they happen to have available. And necessity doesn't make whatever clunker they use the "best" gun or caliber by any means. But I'll agree that substandard firearms and necessity does make for better stalkers!
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
The Rockies, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:13:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.13)

"What a concept!!! I bring the 7 lb MTN rifle for the Stalk, Movers and Stress and the SWS for the Field fire and Group matches this year. Is it allowed ?"

You are kidding, right?

If you're not I want to be there when you propose it to Rod.
I'll be sure to bring a IV starter kit.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Agree totally that 10X is minimum for any kind of Sniper work with whoever has said it. The 10X fixed Leupy is a great device. The M-3 is better for the task due to the 1 min clicks and lower powering.
Even side focus can be an advantage that can be crutial in some circumstances.
Forget what you've heard about variable scopes men, when it's good it will handle it nicely. Don't go by all the cheap stuff and the complaints you've heard on it. If in doubt.. put a Bushnell bore sighter on it (the one with the squares as opposed to lazers and magnetic ones and all that stuff) and run the power ring up and down. I guarantee if there's a shift you can see it. Same thing on the turrets. Check every click up and down and sideways and know what you glass will do. Don't be surprised if your favorite tube lets you down in this test. I recommend this to ALL agencies that shoot past hostages. It don't cost much and it will keep you informed as to what you have mounted on that barrel. Pull it out of the stock and see what happens to the impact point. If there's a big shift more than just a 1/4 or 1/2 minute vertical you have bedding problems. You heard it here on Sniper Country. Go forth and do it today!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:37:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I have to agree with Bill and Ken on the heavy gun issue. We have gone to far in favor of games. I almost believe that the Marines, for once, have copied the civilian shooters. You see a lot of "Towed" rifles at the matches and the trend is to the heavy 26" barrels and big heavy stocks with built in bipods to make the 1000+ yard shots or lay there and drill little holes. When you drop these things on the ground its like shooting off of a bench. I haven't been to a shoot yet where there hasn't been military shooters drooling over them.

Most tactical shoots you can get away with the extra weight because you aren't humping it for miles at a time and you do a lot of shooting. There are a lot of multiple shots or speed shooting and the heavy guns do really give you the edge. I have seen some rifles that resemble rail guns or heavy bench guns called tactical rifles, not in my book.

I agree with Rick on scopes, 10x is about min in my view for long range shooting. I also think that the 30MM tube is a must. You get better clarity and optics. I prefer the variables over the fixed because its nice to be able to turn down the power for movers or mirage.

Once again at matches you see guys using 6.5x20s or even higher power trying to make shots that they really wouldn't take in real life. At one match we shot at air gun targets at 100 and 200yds and the center is about 1/8" or trying to hit a 3/4" wide face at 200yds.

Guns are being built to win matches not for practical field use. I have found that you need at least two different guns if you want to be competative in matches. You need one that is heavy with high power optics that is capable of consistant under .5 MOA and will shoot multiple shots without getting hot and one that is capable of long range accuracy at 1000+ yards but still mobil.

I hate to say it but tactical shooting matches are getting to be just like IPSC shooting where the "Race" guns are becoming the edge in many shoots, "You can't beat cubic dollars". Off my soap box now.

CDC..
I don't disagree with you on the big mags but then as it has been pointed out and you have said its still the shot and the hunter. I probably wouldn't take a 270 or a 6.5x284 elk hunting because if I found the once in a life time bull I would want to be able to take him up to 400 or ever 500yds and that requiers a big mag.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:44:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 14:52:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I was a dealer when they "went bad", and never touched them again.
When they turned around, and came out with the Featherweight, I thought I wanted one just because it was so damn purty.
I got one in .270, and really loved it... then I got to buy a M70 HBV in a McMillen "A2" stock from my town for $125... loved that one... then I found a brand new M70 Custom Sharpshooter, first model, in .308, at a gun store I passed buy... and it's been a down hill slide ever since.

I get bad fevers, and the doctor says "You gotta get a M70, or you may have to come into the hospital".

I get them for medicinal reasons ;))

Flash...
Your comment about 22 rimfires killing a lot of people, is out of context and irrelevent... and nobody is ADVOCATING ANYTHING.
Just trying to open your eyes, that there are no "GOTTA BEE'S" in shooting.

There are many levels of skill, and those at each level, think THEY are the standard... people that push their limits shooting a woodchuck at 200 yds, can't believe that a PD can be shot a 800 yds... cuz they can't do it, or haven't learned how to do it.

Use what you need, to take the game you want CLEANLY... don't worry about what others can do, and don't doubt other's skill levels, if they are more skilled than you... just do what you can, and maybe better next time.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Another damn day of snow, in shooters hell., - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 15:57:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.98)

Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 17:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

Bill, could you please expand on that comment?

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 18:02:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.196.211)

Didn't the little Mex kid ever grow up? Or did dragging 800 pound 6x6's out of the woods every year stunt his growth?

"lito":

I must respectfully disagree with your comments regarding revelance, because for me the ".22RF for defense" analogy is relevant and to the point.

How so? Because although I investigated more shootings involving .22RF's than any other caliber, that didn't magically turn the lowly .22RF into a great defense caliber any more than "war stories" about Navajos and old Mexicans magically transforms .223's, 22-250's and 30-30's into great elk calibers. That's the sense and the relevance of it all.

Are you suggesting that maybe we are wasting our money on $1500 - $3000 sniper rifles when a $150 SKS would work as well? All we'd have to do is get a little closer for the shot, right? Just like the Indians in the hunting stories?

To me, using too little gun is a sure-fire sign of inexperience. It's what eastern "dudes" might do when hunting elk for the first time. Experts, on the other hand, use enough gun if they can afford one.

In case anyone wants to know, the "best" Elk calibers are 7mm, 300 and 338 magnums. Others will do, but IMO these are the best all-around take-em where you find-em long range calibers.
 
 
 

Flash <skalkaho_flash@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 18:06:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.32.34.15)

If you can make that statement after what several have said, then you have missed everything that has been said, and this thread is getting so silly, it is becoming a words game, I won't even dignify it by responding.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 18:49:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.98)

I'm from Jersey, I don't own a Weatherby or an Eddie Bauer anything.

Just remember, California is in the west...how would you like it if I started slurring you guys all together.

Hmmm. Bill and Ted's excellent hunting adventure...
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 19:15:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Most guides I've been with have minimun requirements for caliber especially when it comes to dangerous game.

Shoot what your comfortable and good with... using an issued rifle is a different story whatever the weight... Get good with it...

Gee If everyone came to the SMTC match this year we eastern dudes could have a hell of a shooting contest with the good old boys from the west. I guess I'll have to load up the Schofield 45LC's and the loop 94 and pack the cowboy action gear... Yeeee Haaa !!!!
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 19:45:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 21:15:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

"I peered at the VC through my rifle scope. It was a nine power, zerod in a 1000 meters. That meant if I wanted to shoot a **** at a range of 500 meters, I had to aim at his b*lls in order to get him in the chest. If I wanted to to shoot one at 1200 meters I aimed at his head to get his heart. Simple arithmetic. It was b*lls below 1000, head beyond 1000 and heart at 1,000."

Is there a tactical or speed advantage to simply zeroing in at 1000 and using the above physiological equation? I don't think this would work for the match since there is an accuracy component but me thinks this has merit for the real world?
 

In the "WHY" mode this weekend, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 22:57:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.95)

"You sight your rifle in at 450 yards and then use a center hold for 100 yards to 450 yards. The only time you need to readjust your sights is for shots longer than 600 yards."

Whatcha think about that?
 
 

Gonna be a long weekend, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 23:11:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.95)

Flash..... "Hell, I Was There".
 
 
 
 
 

Feelin' like I died and when I got to the Pearly Gates I walked in on an argument between Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, March 02, 2001 at 23:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.210)

ACOG's all are made of rthe carry handle just some come with the TA-51 bracket for flattop adoption - there is a 3.5x TA01 with a red triangle and 800 meter range stadia calibrated for the SS109 round out of the 20" A2 bbl.

Bolt, your point blank distance will depend upon you trajectory - some of the flatter calibres will have a much longer point blank distance. Using your bullet drop you can work out your danger space - Master Rick has been demonstrating the effects of bullet drop in the mil-error lessons.

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 00:53:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.140)

In Finland 6.5X55 used to forbidden for Elk even though we knew that it was doing fine in Sweden. Nowadays with a bullet over 140 grains it is legal. The most common calibres are 308 and 30-06 even though 9.3X62 has made some serious inraods now that people have more money and can afford to have a Elk rifle and a bird rifle. Also 45-70 Gov loaded hot is getting more popular.

To Flash and others: In Finland and in most parts of Sweden it is almost imppossible to shoot over long ranges Elk and it is in most cases considered also not sportmanslike etc. I think more power than 6.5X55 would bring a good safety margin but one can not really argue with success.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 01:40:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.122.168)

I do see the need to protect the weapon and give the pod and muzzle a smooth nose cone to get through STUFF with but all that motion gave me the heebee jeebees. Also, gave me more ideas than Carter has little liver pills.

To the shop and drawing board, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, March 03, 2001 at 01:54:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.95)