February 1999

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, February 01, 1999 at 01:06:49 (ZULU) 

Ed Engler,
Tried the bootlace thing (also 550 cord) with my bolt, a MOST EXCELLENT IDEA DUDE!
 

Doc,
The standard model Harris Bipod BR1A2 gets my vote "Low n' Mean", anything else I like the tripod set up. We'll see if Fly-Boy can track a mover at Carlos Two ..................

WHERE IS THAT DEPITY??????
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, February 01, 1999 at 01:45:28 (ZULU) 

Thanks,

Ken :)
 

Ken (ImpactArea) <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, February 01, 1999 at 12:20:30 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, February 01, 1999 at 13:50:14 (ZULU) 

Better hit the archieves dude and read slowly, I was numero uno signing up for Carlos Two. THATS Number One (#1) with a genuine Sierra Match King Bullet, Ohier Fly Boy.

I'm ready to rock for the Gunny and so what if MAYBE you whip up on me? You could get lucky and I get struck by lightning, or blown away to OZ by the wind coming from "Ho-Ho Ohier"

You see Rod n' Gooch are waiting too, plus Depity (even though he's lurking I'll bet He'll take a piece of the action) and remember Gooch hasn't been fed lately. BE VERY, VERY, AFRAID!
 

Marius, Do they make one of them computer stylus n' clipboard thingees with a CRAYON for AL oh? ;-)

Chao (you'll be chow) for now
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Monday, February 01, 1999 at 13:57:42 (ZULU) 

ED ENGLER was probably right again,

bet Fly-Boy is bringing a AH-64 loaded with Federal GM308M2 to Carlos Two. :-o

chao

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, bY-gAWD, USA - Monday, February 01, 1999 at 14:12:05 (ZULU) 

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, February 01, 1999 at 17:53:41 (ZULU) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Fly Boy Flyin' High in the Grand State of , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 01:07:46 (ZULU) 

2) T-shirts; I'd like an Olive, Navy blue or USMC
red with a wee white feather on the left breast.
Someone I admire once wrote, "Simplify, simplify"
(I think it might have been Ted Kaczinsky:)

3) Best recent joke.
What's gonna be the best part of having a
woman president?
We won't have to pay her as much.

4) If someone would identify the source of the
quote, you might get a free t-shirt or bowl of
soup. I do know it wasn't T.K. That was a joke.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Puddletown, Orygun, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 01:09:21 (ZULU) 

Thor <Charlie01M@aol.com>
Conyers, Georgia, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 01:57:35 (ZULU) 

Re: Defective Leupold Vari-X III M3 scopes and "operator headspace"

The Vari-X III M3 scopes in question were owned by me and by Sgt. Cox, whom I believe you know. He is not only an army-trained sniper but was a professional gunsmith following his years in the service. Both scopes were definitely defective. One of the scopes was sent back to Leupold for repair. Leupold must have agreed that the scope was defective because they did a lot of work on it, including replacement of the main tube. When it was returned, both Sgt. Cox and I inspected the scope and agreed that the reticle was also crooked with the vertical crosshair at 1:00. The scope was traded to a Leupold dealer for a spotting scope. Sgt. Cox kept the second and less defective scope for use on one of his hunting guns. We are attending the June training sessions at SMTC and we will bring this scope so you can personally inspect it to see if this is indeed a case of "operator headspace."

I received an email from an individual in Australia who experienced the same problem with his Leupold Vari-X III scope. He reported that the shooters at his range consider this to be a common problem with Leupold scopes but he declined to post his experiences to the SC Roster. I own a Mark 4 M3 and have not had any problems with it. Unfortunately, I do not think Leupold is putting the same care into their Vari-X III scopes as they put into their Mark 4 scopes. As useful as variable power is, I have no intention of purchasing any Leupold scopes other than another Mark 4 scope.

Jack McC.

Jack McC. <jmcconney@mindspring.com>
Lawrenceville, GA, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 03:40:12 (ZULU) 

http://www.swfa.com
Tim <kevinallin@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 05:39:16 (ZULU) 

Al B. Way cool dude see ya there!
 

Al. O ,
You better be ready to spank hard, cuz I've been REALLY, REALLY bad and I need itto hurt. ewe GET IT CRAYON BOY?, i MEAN FLY BOY ;-)
DANG GUYS HES getting as many names as Scott P.

Come see the show folks, a one genuine Ohier fly-boy chasin a whippersnapper round the grounds. Be almost as good as the side shoots at a West Virginia carnival.

PS Rods got my money, how about you?

man-yawn-ah

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
big-city, by-gawd, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 06:01:48 (ZULU) 

Thor: I have a Shepherd on my rem700p... I am definitely in the market for a diferent scope. I think it would work ok hunting, but I do not like it for serious social wear. Now, to fess up, I have not had an chance to shoot it at more than 200 yards. At 100 the reticle is really busy, and I had to crank the LR reticle down out of the way to really see target dots for load development. I think the stadia lines are way to coarse. I have several other scopes that are way brighter under the same conditions, and suspect that the optics are not really top of the line. That having been said, it works and is better than a lot of things that I have peered thru. I just think for the application that we are considering there are some better things out there for similar dollars. I am a newbie at the extended long range stuff, so someone may know better than I, real experience stuff.
seeya bye
longline
scott <longline@att.net>
wa, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 06:10:10 (ZULU) 

I own a 8-32x56 with an NP-R2 ranging reticle, I have nothing but
good things to say about them. I was seriously debating over that scope or the Leupold M4 M1 16x42. The local .50 cal shooters and some of our local police snipers were trading in their old tactical scopes and M4's in favor of these scopes. They were doing it for two reasons,
first, the Leupolds don't track as well as Nightforce scopes with the coil springs, and second, some of the guys were having problems with the M4's breaking down under the force of the .50's, the Nightforce scopes weren't doing that. Their field of view is a little less than the Leupolds because of flatter glass, but Leupolds optical clarity doesn't even come close, these scopes are right there with the Swarovski's & Zeiss's in terms of clarity. There big and bulky, but there strength, tracking and clarity is unmatched. Oh yea, mine is a 98 model.

Casey <Caseyb@scs.unr.edu>
Nowhere, NV, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 06:27:58 (ZULU) 

As you can se by my adress I've changed servers. AOL sucks and I got tired of formatting my hard drive every week or so. I've really missed you guys and the information that flows through here. I'll try to come back more often. My life is still pretty messed up since my loss and now my Grandmother has passed so life right now is pretty much shit. I did get some horses and my young bride and I are riding. I got my M1D from CMP and it's in NEW, UN-ISSUED CONDITION, I have never seen one like this! I got it Friday and I am going to shoot it this week if the weather clears. It cmae with a cone flash hider which I hate so I ordered a T37 prong flash hider and a good manual that should be here by the end of the week. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions for the M1D? I haven't shot one in many, many years and I'm open to any thoughts on it.

Out here,

Gramps
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.com>
Old Folks Home, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 07:39:24 (ZULU) 

As I said in my e-mail I want several of each kinds of T shirts, let me know when and how to pay.

Gramps
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 07:48:09 (ZULU) 

Gramps
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 07:52:17 (ZULU) 

The worse thing you could do is take a .223 to a potential sniping scenario and have it rapidly deteriorate into one where you NEED the .308 (akin to the often fatal error of taking a knife to a gunfight). One of the rules I was taught was "always use enough gun". Again, try bringing this up and then using the word "liability" in the same sentence with your commander.

NTOA has consultants on the topic available to your department - let them tackle the problem. As pointed out, your department would be very foolish to risk the liability (there's that pesky word again) to ignore the recommendations of a recognized expert in the field.
 

Mark Thomen <thomen@ibm.net>
USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 08:29:11 (ZULU) 

Welcome back! and with a M1-D too! Way Cool! Clean'r good, Lock-Load-n-Fire for Effect SIR! I might just have to take a stroll down the block and snag a .308 Tanker conversion to keep up with ya.

Shepard/US Optics scopes, Nah Get a Leupold or B&L Tactical (proven performers) unless mounted on a ground pounder. I bet a elastomer scope mount system would alieviate that small problem and I know where to get one, NYAH-NYAH.

Grasshopper,
Right On with the B&L, a totally GNARLY scope. I heard shooting KiWi fruits is a capitol crime in CA. though! "Bad Bug!, Bad Bug! What-Cha Gonna Do When They Come For You!"

E-Mail X-ring he just loves Nightforce scopes, right Scott? ;-)
Best Fish Billy made!

Thomen,
Wheelguns, wasamatter with wheel guns? Rules one and appendix "A."? Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy, and You fight as you train. A Ohier Fly-Boy with a Glock is nowhere near as dangerous as a highly trained Hillbilly with a K-frame! Oops, is more dangerous!

Liles,
I gotit, Henry David Thoureau! or wasit John Moses Browning?

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 13:41:04 (ZULU) 

Roy out
Roy <thomason@cos.saic.com>
CS, CO, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 16:01:07 (ZULU) 

Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 16:35:25 (ZULU) 

Gramps,
Welcome back, we've missed you!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 17:16:02 (ZULU) 

I'm currently using Talon Brass (IMI match) and thats exactly why I'm at 44.0 grains of Varget, began to see early pressure signs. Back off to 43.0 and work up (I know its a pain dude). You neck sizing or full length resizing? Tight Chamber? Reamed or Turned necks?
'member what I said a couple months ago w/ Varget n 175's.........?

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 18:27:08 (ZULU) 

Other than that I hope things start looking a little brighter for you.

Zero: Other than the Springfield Armory 5-round mag that came with the rifle, I use only USGI mags in my M1A. They work great, never had a malfunction. Don't skimp on the mags, it makes no sense feeding an expensive rifle with lousy mags to save a couple of bucks!!!!

Forget the $60 Springfield mags, IF you qualify to purchase from them, the CMP sells unissued USGI M14 mags for $25 and used ones for $15. I bought several of each style a few years ago. The used mags varied in external finish quality but all function perfectly. They have other parts and items that may interest you, like M14 trigger groups, skunky ART-II scopes, and Lake City 7.62NATO match brass. You can see the full list of parts on the CMP site here.

X-Ring: Scott, I suggest that you make those Hathcock II shirts a limited run like the first ones were, so that the check goes to Carlos when they run out. That should encourage folks not to procastinate with sending in their money, and help to sell out the run faster. Maybe we can get lucky and have the whole run pre-sold. That would probably simplify things for you.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 19:16:39 (ZULU) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Tuesday, February 02, 1999 at 21:39:15 (ZULU) 

By the way, the two guys running the NRA lobby in Sacramento are both long-distance shooting afficionados and regular attendees of our tactical match. That's how I found out about the match.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 00:14:19 (ZULU) 

thanks,

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 00:16:35 (ZULU) 

All: What's the deal with T.R.G.T (trgt.com) I placed a C.O.D. order with them via email. No acknowlegement. Their phone number does not work, and I have not received an answer to my emails regarding the status of that order. I haven't really lost anything - but would like to aquire the items that I ordered.

thanks from the Impact Area

Ken :)

ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 00:41:22 (ZULU) 

Did find the bearbasin site, it is great. A friend uses Jerry's Sport Center, where the heck is this I do not know, but the prices are good.

seeya bye
longline,(too many scotts around here, confusion...)
longline <longline@att.net>
wa, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 00:49:23 (ZULU) 

Been away for a while now, computer freaked out on me, takin' it to the underground range at work tomorrow to zero in a 416 Rigby. Also have been busy getting everything ready to go for the SHOT show, so I have had a lot of reading to do today.

Bedding an H-S stock:

why?

Little secret though, I do bed all of my H-S stocks. Not at the action screws or the barrel but behind the recoil lug where it meets up with the bedding block, as sometimes there is a small gap between them. I think with that gap the action screws take some of the brunt of the force, which they should not, so I epoxy, fill in the gap. That is all the bedding I do on mine anyway. Otherwise the action is centered by the bedding block, so there is no need to bed it.

Take it easy everybody,
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 00:51:49 (ZULU) 

Out

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 00:56:21 (ZULU) 

Dave: Thanks for the info! I know that the box and paperwork must be kept and also that the value will go down when I shoot it but when I have a weapon, any weapon, it's for shooting, not for looks! This one is without a doubt new and un-issued. When I broke it down I verified that. The stock is new and not scratched with deep cartuches,(spelling), all metal is new, the bore is new, the scope is new, all parts were in individual bags with tags and had never been opened. I've already been offered $3,000.00 and a rifle from a collector who is begging me for it and not to shoot it but it's not for sale at any price!

Good advise for the guy looking for M-14 mags, DCM/CMP is the place for all mags and parts for both the Garand and the M-14/M1A. If you haven't joined a club yet now is the time. The M1Ds are almost gone for good but you can still get the different grades of Garands and all parts.

Out here,
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 00:56:35 (ZULU) 

All..Please bear with me on my website. It is coming along slowly. Unfortunatly I have other duties to attend to, and a deployment to California coming up. Keep checking in. I am starting with basic informaiton, and will progress from there.

Keep It Real
John <snlper8541@aol.com>
Camp Lejeune, NC, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 02:37:31 (ZULU) 

Lemme see if I can score you a manual for that 700:) I will call around here...drop me an email.
 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 03:07:16 (ZULU) 

As to your Question, I've been in Mexico City visiting the wife. Just got back 02/02/99 at 21:00 WVST. I've got a lot or catching up to do after two weeks off but I will say this:

If you can't go to the Hathcock Shoot SEND MONEY ANYHOW!!!

I'll send Rod Slope Dopers for the winners.

All you city slickers, or as we say up here "Flat Landers" "Come On Up" put your money up and show us your stuff, Just cuz we walk slow and talk slow don't asume we think slow! We can always have side matches to decide all kinds of things!

Put me down for t-shirts with pockets, need some place to keep the glasses. You young pups will find out about if you live long enough.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Back Home Again In, West Virginia, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 05:37:19 (ZULU) 

Springfield Armory 6-20x56 Mil Dot Government Model™

Can anyone give me some performance intel onthis piece of equipmennt?

OSCAR <Oscar 42857@aol.com>
SanAngelo, TX, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 06:26:01 (ZULU) 

1 PAIR TRAUMA SHEARS (ALSO KNOW ON TV AS DURA SHEARS)
10+ 4X4 SPONGES
2 ROLLS OF "KERLIX" THE KERLIX IS HIGHLY ABSORBANT.
2 ROLLS OF "KLING"
2 8"X13" COMBINE DRESSINGS (A WOMANS MAXI-PADS WILL DO THE SAME)
1-2 10"X 30" TRAUMA DRESSINGS
1-4 TAMPAX TAMPONS (NO JOKING HERE, IF YOU CUT A GOUGE OUT, IT WILL PLUG IT.)
5 ZIPLOCK BAGGIES
GLOVES, THE NON POWDER KIND
TWEEZERS
MAGNIFYING GLASS
STERILE WATER OR NORMAL SALINE TO WASH EYES, OR WOUNDS OUT
2 PAIR OF SOCKS-TO COVER HANDS AND FEET FOR COLD EMERGENCIES
VENOM EXTRACTOR
4 TRIANGULAR BANDAGES 1 FOR HEAD-WRAP IF NEEDED
SMALL ZIPLOCK BAGGIE WITH ASSORTED BAND-AIDS
2 SPACE BLANKETS
MAGNESIUM FIRE STARTER
A LENGTH OF PARA CORD
1 PACKAGE OF SPIDERWIRE 5LB TEST LINE
A SMALL CURVED BASEBALL GLOVE REPAIR NEEDLE
2 ROLLS OF 1/2" TAPE
1 ROLL OF DUCT TAPE
1 ROLL OF 2" TAPE
1 4" ACE BANDAGE
10 TONGUE DEPRESSORS OR POPSICLE STICKS FOR SPLINTING
 

THAT IS ABOUT IT FOR NOW, ALL OF THE ITEMS CAN BE ARRANGED IN THE BAG TO FITAND TAKE WITH YOU ON A STALK OR A HUNT.OR YOU CAN BREAK THE ITEMS UP IN YOUR ALICE PACK. A FOOTNOTE HERE, THE ZIPLOCK BAGS CAN BE USED AS OCCLUSIVE DRESSINGS FOR CHEST WOUNDS OT TO PACK OUT TRASH.
ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS OR IDEAS, CONTACT ME AT MY E-MAIL ADDRESS.
I AM AN ARKANSAS STATE CERTIFIED EMT. BEEN FOR 7 YEARS.WORKED ON SEVERAL ALS/911 AMBULANCES SERVICING MOSTLY TRAUMA CALLS AND ALSO A FIREFIGHTER FOR 11 YEARS. I ALSO WORK AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS MEDICAL CENTER IN LITTLE ROCK ARKANSAS.

FRANK <MAC705@MAILCITY.COM>
USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 08:40:15 (ZULU) 

BUT,

a very good post on med supplies, a former Sav'age shooter promised to do that for me a few weeks back, but has unfortunately been real busy with other things.

Depity,

Glad you made it back SAFELY from where was it, Cancun? ;-) Was down at the "Point" 1/21 for qualification, BIG IMPROVEMENTS back on that little dirt road that leads to the berms.

Maybe we can get Al O. a grand prize trip to Juarez for a Jalapeno Suprise if he winds, uh wins? High concentration rebreather supplied O2 (16LPM)for the winner!

JR,
How did you say to bed a R..., Ruuu, Ruuuggg? What of type bedding compound and how long does it last? Enquiring minds want yo know.
 

Dos-Vee-Don-Yah!
 

peteR
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
NO-CAPS CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 14:21:07 (ZULU) 

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 14:40:10 (ZULU) 

Gramps, that M1D is no good I'll take it off your hands for you for a six pack.

Pete You the dude!

Old Dog, I found the scope for you. Leupold VarX3 LR M1. 3.5x10 Mil Dot, with 1/4 minute clicks. Mine will be here in a few weeks. I'll let you know the cost when it arrives. As to Unertal (bad spelling) scopes, they won't sell even to L.E. with letter head. Why they only know.

Someone asked about Navy Contract scopes. The ones I have seen are Tasco's not MK4's, and that is why they are cheaper. SWFA has them for 300.00.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 16:36:34 (ZULU) 

Bill R, Definately nuff said Dude, But whatsa Goochpon? %-)
 

Doc-Dude,
CR-10 vs Sweets both are real aggressive fast workers, I use Shooters Choice Copper Remover, and need lotsa ventilation for your health. Caveat Cleaner my man.

Fly-Boy,
Nope not now, I'll be back..................!

man-yawn-ahh

peteR
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-BRIGHT-CITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 17:39:51 (ZULU) 

You have a source for M1 mags right there in River City. Try calling KY Imports 502-244-4400. They usually show them as a stock item in the catalog.

Sandy
Sandy <shiftysand@aol.com>
Rivercity, KY, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 17:46:45 (ZULU) 

I do not believe that Mike was trained by the Chandlers. One certainly
doesn't get that impression from reading the Chandlers' DFA books. I'll ask him when I talk to him in a couple of weeks, though. (I know that for the Chandler guns, all the IBA guys that work on them are former Marine 2112s.)

The Chandlers do not use the Unertl mount, while Mike's literature says that he uses a "USMC Unertl-style" mount. Some components that are standard on the Chandler guns are optional on Mike's and will cost additional money- Badger Ordnance/Chandler recoil lug, trigger guard, scope mount and scope rings for example.

The summary seems to be that the Chandlers produce a superior rifle that naturally costs a lot more, while Mike makes good guns that cost less. I have a TBA rifle due before long, which I expect to like a lot, but I would have gone with the Chandler if I could have afforded that sucker. When it comes to firearms, I'm a believer in buying the best you can afford, and for me that was the TBA gun - the Chandler was unfortunately totally out of the question and that made the decision rather academic.

Of course, none of this brings the Armament Technology guns into the equation, and several Duty Roster regulars (like the sagely Mistah Gooch) swear by those.

Dave <Dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 19:44:31 (ZULU) 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 20:43:30 (ZULU) 

Instructions to first time U.S. visitors are now posted at www.dcra.ca. Also, as a further reference, you may view an article that a close friend of mine wrote for PS (featured article - January 1996). In that article you may find what a truly ugly rifle looks like!

Anyone with questions, please feel free to contact me any time.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Warming - SE, IL, USA - Wednesday, February 03, 1999 at 23:13:58 (ZULU) 

Ordered Chandler Sniper in Jan 97. Received in Aug 98. Rifle had 36 rounds on barrel when received (break in). My first rounds out of the Chandler were using PMC crap for barrel conditioning. Very first 5 rd group shot from brand new, cleaned gun 0.22 inches at 100 yds (PMC!!). Second (remember, I'm cleaning every round) 0.21 inches. Third 0.18 inches. Unbelievable. Workmanship on the rifle is flawless, every thing is so crisp and neat. Quality is fabulous. Scope mount is Unertl style unitized, lugged mount by Badger Ordnance made for Iron Brigade. Norm has changed his trigger guard supplier from D.D. Ross (Medina, OH) to Badger Ordnance. The BA guard is more refined.. almost petite … looking next to the Ross guard. (You could also beat a motorcycle gang to death with the Ross guard and just need to hose it off! Industructable) I chose a McMillan A3 stock for my Chandler… perfect for me… some folks don't like the extra hardware. I replaced the thumb screws on mine with allen screws. Weight about 13.5 pounds, balance perfect. Black Turner sling marked "Chandler Sniper", Pelican case, MicroTorque inch-pound torque wrench, hex insert adaptor and a Dewey 30" rod complete the package. I furnished a Mark 4 M1 16X scope to Norm, but have since replaced it with a Leupold 3.5 x 10 M3 variable. A true quarter inch rifle or less, depending on the nut behind the butt. The only other thing I plan to do is have AWC put a Fast Action Knob on the bolt. For those that haven't tried it, AWC's bolt modification is superb. Fast, smooth, feel is perfect..GET RID of that Remington Palm Chopper. AWC gives discounts when doing more than 1 at a time. Go in with some tovarishchi and save some bucks. I'm going to put them on all my rifles. Hope this helps. Have fun. Bill

Bill 971 <lhardin1@netscape.net>
Gulf Coast, FL, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 00:32:29 (ZULU) 

You have one terrific web page.

Semper Fi

Sniper

B. Davidson <sniper@mail.fwi.com>
Fort Wayne, IN, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 02:12:03 (ZULU) 

As for the continuing debate with the M1A v.M25 ....Having worked with the "old" M-21 system for many years there is one problem and that is having to "tilt and push" the magazine into the weapon. The Stoner straight in magazine is a "NO BRAINER" and for you Stoner 25 owners, there is a maker for FULL titanium firing pin !!! Absolutely OUTSTANDING !!! More info email me. Well "Reality" is still getting me down but I have a briefcase full of info to delve into....then the match this Sat !! Happy happy, joy joy.
Torsten is a good, neat person. Just wish I could have had more time to visit with some of the others. Perhaps next time.
OUT HERE !!!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
"Back to Reality", AL, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 05:34:38 (ZULU) 

Gooch: Still hiding?????

Depity Dave: What's up?

Bain: Still alive?????

Where are all the "old timers" other than some that I mentioned? Not you Torsten you semi Jell-o meister.....
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 05:37:07 (ZULU) 

Question: I have seen ads for the Leupold 4.5-14 with the BDC, they say they do not build them, what gives? This seems like a really nice compromise for those not into really close range tacticle, and prefer a variable. Am leaning to the 3.5-10 LR M3 otherwise, and would appreciate comments, the weekend Mass Destruction Show approaches...
seeya bye
longline
longline <longline@att.net>
wa, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 06:35:40 (ZULU) 

Did you ever get that JATO pack installed on your walker? A couple years ago some guy installed one on his Buick but he obviously didn't have the fine motor control required to operate it properly.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Trying to get my mindset adjusted after beeing on vacation away from, Beautiful but Wet and Chilly West Virginia, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 12:56:40 (ZULU) 

Ran into LtCol Chandler and some other former USMC assosciates. There we were in the middle of the main aisle and he strips off his IBA shirt and swapped it for a Storm Mountain Sniper School shirt from one of our grads who owns a few Chandler guns.

Talked to an old 2112 buddy and he says that Unertl is going to build some 30 more scopes for the USMC. He also told me that Unertl does not depend on the sales of these scopes too much for funds as they do big buisness with NASA. SOmething about designing the Hubble Telescope.

John from Camp Lejuene. Trained and taught with both the USMC Unertl and the Leupold M3A and I can tell you that given an option for a mission I would take the M3A. Little stuff like quick adjust parallax, scope shade, finish, superior lens coatings, and a laser filter make a big difference. I was an M40 loyalist when I was in the COrps too though so I understand where you are coming from. Now after working with the M24 SWS I've seen the light. Now if the regular Army could teach sniping and marksmanship as well as the Corps they would have something (SOTIC is good to go).

Here is my final advice on rifles. You want a M40 clone, get a Chandler, you want a M24 clone, go with Armament Technology. There now I've pissed off some people.

Later,
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 15:10:55 (ZULU) 

Pat, if you get the scope mount centered up to where the windage is close to the middle of it's adjustment you will gain a little more elevation...

shock buffs for semis, never had any ill effects in regards to accuracy or relibility when using them.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 15:16:47 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 16:06:36 (ZULU) 

T.R.G.T. is alive and well despite the best efforts of Mr. Murphy. Uh, not the one in South Dakota. The other one. The short explanation is that our e-mail is all ate up, we can receive but not send. And the phone company falsely promised us an installation date for the new phone. We are shipping this week and we will be in touch with you again directly.

Ops. Partner
T.R.G.T. - L.L.P.
"By Operators, for Operators."
 

Operations Partner <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, CO, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 16:16:23 (ZULU) 

On that subject, how do you know when the break in is complete? Number of rounds, groupings, how many gallons of solvent you use?

Hurry up with the log book Gooch. Gotta start this PSS perty soon.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 16:18:32 (ZULU) 

I have not been able to keep up with the roster reading lately so if you want to get on the T-shirt list, please email me direct. I am compiling a list for both shirts and if the interest is great enough, both are on. BUT I have to get your confirmation at my email adress. Please do not ask for the shirts here on the roster as I may miss your post! REPEAT: Send your request to xring@voicenet.com

Stay well all. I've been too busy to visit here much lately, but I hope that changes soon.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 17:00:29 (ZULU) 

Bolt,
Its my habit to keep records from the first shot down the barrel. Sometimes it may take several hundred rounds before the rifle "Settles in" but normally it will be with in the first 100rds on factory rifles and less on aftermarket barrels. The best way to tell if its broke in, is when they quit fouling so bad and there a lot easier to clean. Then sometime after that they will start shooting better and more consistant groups. Others may have different opinions but thats kind of what I've found on mine.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 17:11:25 (ZULU) 

Darren...
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA , USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 18:16:35 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 19:30:27 (ZULU) 

Mike Obrien: Mike, most cops, even though they don't practice as much as they should are trained to be safe with their weapons. Where do you draw the line? Put a 1 lb trigger on the Glock and require more training?

c211: What I meant by the Glock being cocked when a round is in the chamber was that the spring is already pre-loaded and it only takes a little more pressure to fire the gun. As far as the Glocks safeties go. I personally know a cop who took off his gun belt, hung it up on the hook in his locker and changed clothes to go out. When left he slammed the locker door it hit the holster and the Glock fired.
When your in a tense situation on the street your finger will most likely be in the trigger guard even if it's not on the trigger. You'll be so wired up at the moment that anything might cause you to dump a load in your pants and accidentelly fire the gun.
The danger I speak of in the Glock is with the standard tigger, I know that heavier springs are available. I think they should be required for police depts.

Pat: The danger of accidentally firing the Glock is not at the range it's in a fast moving, sphyncter muscle tightening police incident. The revolvers that you spoke of obviosly don't have standard triggers and besides in police work you shouldn't go into a situation with the hammer locked back anyway.

Rich: The grip safety on a 1911 model doesn't require a seperate motion, as soon as you grab the gun you work the safety. The thumb safety takes only a fraction of a second.

Six years ago I went on a gang fight call, as I arrived I heard four shots. There were people running everywhere. I caught up with four gangbangers after a short foot chase. I ordered them all face down on the ground with their hands behind their head. Three obeyed but one didn't. Witnesses yelled to me that he was the one with the gun.
The punk wouldn't take his hands away from his side which made me REALLY nervous. Finally he reached into his jacket pocket and started pulling something out. At that time I carried a S&W model 19. It felt like somebody kicked me in the stomach as I realized that I was about to kill someone. I felt the hammer coming back. All of a sudden another squad that just pulled up shined his spotlight in the punks face. The kid said "OK man OK" and gave up. It turns out that he had a starter pistol that shot blanks and just wanted to show me that it wasn't a real gun. If I had a Glock in that incident the kid would be dead. The shooting would have been justified but I'd still have to live with the fact that I killed this kid.

Sorry this was so long. Please dont anyone take offense at my dislike of Glocks.

Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 20:45:12 (ZULU) 

Bach,
I have one of those manuals, I got mine at the National Rifle Championships during small arms firing school. Those guys at FT. Benning used to put on clinics for those interested. The manual is about 50/50 coaching,shooting and deals only with service rifle and long range competition. You wont find much sniper stuff in there.

Chuck,
It looks to me like you are in business, What is the dial that you are using? If you are coming up 47 clicks from your 100 zero, that is a metric dial. Your ammo must be clocking alot faster that 2600 fps to make the dial track accurately in meters.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 22:25:06 (ZULU) 

My unit can not get M118 via "normal" supply channels, we can only get M852, ?M825? and then only about 400 - 500 for the whole fiscal year. Supposedly this is due to a "shortage" in DOD supply system.
From what little I know about this round it has different performance (poorer)than the M118. Our scopes have BDC's for the M118. Does anyone have/know where I can get info and balistics data on the M852? Does anyone have any ideas about how to make the M825 work with the M118 BDC? My idea on this was to take the ballistics tables on the two rnds and compare them and make the appropriate conversions for each range, etc... Does anyone have any different ideas on how to tackle this? Does anyone have ANY info, scoop, dirt, whatever on the M852 round and/or how it performs in the M24? Every little tidbit would be greatly appreciated. (Gooch??)
I have been trying to find large lots of surplus M118 on the market but have not been able to find more than about 4 or 5 boxes of the same lot. Anyone know of a good supplier of surplus M118 ammo in large lots (like 500-1000rds)? I got 4 boxs of a 1972 lot (dont have the info on me right this moment), are there any particular lots/years to stay away from? I know Lake City has had production/quality problems in the past but what years/lots?
I have to go to my next class, but have lots more ?'s for you guys. I am really fighting an uphill battle (like sraight up a cliff) with the "higher ups" in this unit. In every aspect of sniping; employment - one sniper per squad/being expected to wear Ghillie on patrol with a squad etc etc.., training - I am supposed to take people from ZERO time Marksmans and Sharpshooters all the way to being able to get MOSQ'ed by State HQ by conducting all my classes THRU HIPPOCKET TRAINING!! IE 2 to 3 hrs per MONTH, getting range time "Cant you take them outside and just dry fire or something???"
Anyways, gotta run - anyone got some cheese to go with my whine???
How about you Gooch?
~CC
C Caspers <xuanyi@aol.com>
o-me-haw, NE, USA - Thursday, February 04, 1999 at 23:24:10 (ZULU) 

Would you mind explaining in more detail the turret test you mentioned. I'd be interested in trying it s/ my scopes. Thanks

Darren:

I have not shot any of the Autauga rifles. So I cannot give feedback. I handled a couple and observed others.

Pat:

Try varget 38 or 39 gr w/ berger 140 vld just touching or 0.005 to 0.010" into lans on the "fatboy"

Scott:

I'd like one of ea. if possible on the t shirts. Size : large

Pat:

Also, I will back off approx 0.5 to 1.0 gr on IMI or LC cases compared to Win. or Lapua (ie. 43 gr N140 and 44 gr N140 for a 175) only because it appears that the IMI and LC cases have less volumn. I've read this a couple of places as well.

Thanks,

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 00:10:59 (ZULU) 

Gunny Rayfield: Where's that match 30.06 for my M1D? I'm looking at this Saturday for shooting, hurry up! (These Department of the Navy boys sure are slow)! Looking for cover now!

QUESTION FOR ALL: Does anyone have any idea on the correct positioning of the leather cheek piece for the M1D? It seems to have two screw holes that line up with two of the gromments in the unit but if they are used it seems that the pad would be really high, any ideas?

Out here

Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 01:23:22 (ZULU) 

I'm planning on getting myself an accurate (1 MOA or better), sniper-style rifle sometime in the near future and am wondering if anyone here could give me some advice. I am a newbie here, so if anything (or everything) I'm asking is a FAQ then I apologize, but everyone has to start somewhere. This message board seems to have a much better "signal-to-noise ratio" than the Usenet firearms groups, so there seems to be a much better chance of getting useful and informed answers here than elsewhere. As soon as I have a few free hours I'm definitely going to read through some of the articles in the Hot Tips and Cold Shots section too.

This rifle will be used primarily for varmint and target shooting, at least at first. If I decide to start hunting deer again, then I'm sure I'll use it for that too. Of course, in a TEOTWAWKI scenario it will be used for the defense of myself and my family also.

From everything I've read, .308 Winchester seems to be my best choice for a general purpose caliber. Does anyone think that a different caliber would be a better choice? As soon as finances allow I'm going to get a reloading rig, so the widespread availability of .308 match BTHP bullets, brass, and data is a big plus.

The biggest decision I'm left with is which exact rifle to buy. At this point, my first choice is the Sako Model 75 in Stainless Synthetic. Does anyone here have personal experience with this rifle or any opinions of it? I have heard and read a lot of good things about it but haven't had a chance to examine one personally. Most gun dealers I've talked to had only positive things to say about it but one I talked to earlier today said he thought they are cheaply built and he has had problems with the synthetic stocks cracking and breaking... not sure if I should take anything he said seriously or not. The standard barrel on the non-magnum Sako 75s is 22 inch, I don't know if it's possible to get one that's 24"... is a 22" barrel acceptable? Also, is the trigger suitable for good long range accuracy? According to the specs I have, it has a single-stage trigger and from what I've read, a double-stage is recommended... as long as the trigger mechanism is crisp and well made, does this matter?

The other two rifles on the top of my list are the Remington M700 VS and the Winchester M70 Sharpshooter. Both of them seem to be fairly similar... is one definitively better than the other? Is the VS version of the Remington the best choice or is there another model that's better? One plus of the Remington that I can see is the option of installing the new UARS stock. BTW -- Why does (nearly) everyone think this is an ugly stock, I think it looks pretty good myself. =)

If I could afford a more exotic rifle like a Sako TRG-21 or a H&K MSG-90 or even a custom rifle built on a commercial action, then I would probably go for it. I would also love to have a Steyr Scout but I don't know if it has the long range capabilities I'm looking for and it isn't exactly cheap either. Should I be considering a military M24 (I have no idea what they cost)? Are they commonly available to the public at all; I've never seen one for sale? Unless I want to wait a couple months to save up the money, then I'm limited to the $2000-$2500 neighborhood for the rifle plus the scope, bipod, and any other accessories I might want/need.

Speaking of the scope, so far I've been mainly considering Leupold's Tactical series but I'm keeping an open mind towards other options. I just heard of U.S. Optics today and looked over their Web site... they seem like a definite possibility also. They don't list prices on their Web site though, so I'm not sure if it would be possible to fit even their more modest scopes into my budget.

Well, this has ended up longer than I intended my first post to be, so I better wrap it up...

Thanks in advance for any advice given, I really appreciate it!

--Jim S.

Jim S. <sorcerer@cport.com>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 02:45:27 (ZULU) 

Count me in for 1 XXL t-shirt.
spectr17 <spectr17@geocities.com>
Land of banned weapons , Ca, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 06:33:23 (ZULU) 

M118 vs M852- Go with the 852. It sacrifices a bit of range, but is a more precise and consistent round. Mil version of Fed 168 match. Despite what the box says, it IS LEGAL for combat use. The Benning School or SOTIC should be able to get you the Pentagon legal opinion memo.
The reason why the stuff is short is that LC is supposed to be tooling up to make M118LR, which is supposed to be the cats meow. Don't know when it is going to hit our level though. For training ammo, you need to know your zero with all types of 7,62 mil ammo so shoot some M80 ball (won't hurt the gun lots around, lets you work on the shooters form), and a VERY SMALL amount of tracer.
I will forward in a seperate E-Mail the M852 data that one of the regulars here (an instructor at JFKSWC SOTIC) sent me. It is accurate. If you want, you can paint the E turrets on your scope and put the new data on.

Sorry about the length. Got carried away.
Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 10:42:07 (ZULU) 

Jeff A,
Good to hear from you!!They must be keeping you busy in the computer world. I have some Cronograph data to send you on some different powders but I will wait until I get out one more time. I will order some Berger VLDs, but can you load them mag. length and still touch the rifeling?? This is going to be a tactical rifle so I need to be able to feed from the magazine. N 140 is pushing the 140s well over 2700fps and as I recall I think around 2780fps. I am trying to find a load that is both fast and accurate. Have you tried Hornadys new A-Max the BC is .630!! But I am sure you would have to load them as a single round and not out of the magazine.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 14:23:30 (ZULU) 

What I would like, is a 2.5 pound trigger (40oz) that stays CONSISTENT pull after pull. I also insist on not removing the safety from the rifle.

I'm suprised how little information I could find via the web on triggers. Very few prices were given and even less opinion. Specific features were not given (ie. 1.5-3 lb with safety). So what retailers and manufactures would have you do is guess at model numbers and hope you guessed right. I am so glad to have this forum to ask questions and discuss these things.

I've spoken with several high power guys that have thrown out several big names. Jewell, Shilen, and Timney. These are familiar names but I'd like to hear what people's experiences have been with them. I've heard Jewell's are the nicest of the bunch (until the bill arrives).

I'd like to hear about how this group selected an aftermarket trigger for their rifles. Thanks!
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 16:01:20 (ZULU) 

Price: $15.00 plus shipping

Shipping
$3.00 for up to 5 hats.
$4.00 for 6 and above.
Hats will be shipped via Priority Mail.

To place an order, send a MONEY ORDER or Cashiers Check to:

SC Hat
C/O Scott Powers
3103 Pruss Hill Rd.
Pottstown PA, 19464

Personal Checks are accepted but must clear prior to shipping. Sorry, no credit cards.
Special note: SC will also be creating a special Carlos Hathcock shirt in which all proceeds are donated to the Hathcock family. Please be patient as we wish to clear the shirt design with Carlos' family prior to production.
Thank you for your support!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 16:24:50 (ZULU) 

Due to popular demand, Sniper Country is proud to offer it first official SC T-shirt. The shirt will be a heavy duty Hanes Beefy made of 100% cotton. The PLANNED color is an attractive black shirt with white graphics. An alternate color would be ash gray with hunter green artwork. At this time, black looks to be the color of choice. A Sniper Country logo will appear above the front chest pocket and an image of a sniper will appear on the back with the Sniper Country web address. Sizes will be limited to Large, XL, and XXL.

XXXL May be available in limited quantities depending on the vendor, so order early to make the first production run.

I am taking orders now. The first production run will start as soon as enough orders have come in to make this a viable project.

Price is as follows:
L and XL - $20.00
XXL - $21.50
XXXL - $23.00

Shipping
$3.50 for one to four shirts.
$6.00 for five to 10 shirts.
$10.00 for 11 to 15.
Shirts will be shipped via Priority Mail.

To place an order, send a MONEY ORDER or Cashiers Check to:

SC T-Shirt
C/O Scott Powers
3103 Pruss Hill Rd.
Pottstown PA, 19464

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 16:34:37 (ZULU) 

On the range finders, how much are they going to be???
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 17:08:55 (ZULU) 

In reality I'll be using this rifle for entertainment, as I am not a police or military sniper. I enjoy firearms in general, they're nice little machines. I see getting my trigger as consistent as possible as one more step in making the machine perfect. I use this rifle to take shots from 200-700 yards currently. If I can get an edge by finding a better trigger, I'm willing to save my money and invest. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming my misses on a trigger flaw, I would just like to know that if I miss it is certainly my fault. :) Thanks for the responses.

Another quick note: I'm sure many of you have noticed something about a rifle that bugs you. Until you are able to work out that issue, it's very hard psychologically to overcome this flaw and rise above it. Thats how I've started to feel about my trigger.
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 18:08:18 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 19:17:38 (ZULU) 

Sorry, I had to vent. Keep shooting and Stay safe.

Pat,
As I have stated before, I am a School Trained Marine Sniper, currently active duty in a Sniper Platoon. The trigger pull method that your instructor mentioned to you goes against everything i have ever heard or been taught about trigger control. Sticking your finger all the way through, instead of just using the pad or first joint, would cause some twisting of the rifle as you increase pressure. It may not be apparent at close ranges, but it definitly will show out to the 1000yrd line. My M40A1 has a 6lb. trigger, and I have never heard of any sniper being bothered by the weight of pull. If it really bothers you. Get a trigger job, dont compensate with bad tecnique.

Check out my Website at: http://www.angelfire.com/nc/marinesnipers/index.html

Thanx, Catch y'all when i get back from the west coast.
John <snlper@aol.com>
Camp Lejeune, NC, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 20:08:50 (ZULU) 

Just got back from the Shot Show. I noticed in reading 'Duty Roster' there is a lot of interest in the UARS stock.

For that reason,for the Carlos Hathcock Shoot, Autauga Arms will donate five (5) UARS stocks for the shoot. Also please give us some more info on the how to get the t-shirts. I want one.

Semper Fi,
Mike Flynn, Manager
Mike Flynn <autaugaarms@mindspring.com>
Prattville, AL, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 21:12:10 (ZULU) 

I have a friend that has a Ruger 77. It couldn't do much better than 2 or 3 inches at 100 yards, so he sent it back. Ruger returned it and said it looked OK to them, their specs are 1.5" at 50 yards or something like that. He mic'ed the bore and found out it widened from breach to muzzle.

The Ruger 77s don't have a great reputation for accuracy from what I've heard, even with a lot of help from a competent gunsmith. An occasional specimen will shoot well, but in general they don't keep up. All I can suggest is to take yours to the range and see what it can do.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 21:19:13 (ZULU) 

If you are ready to order the SC shirts, go ahead now as this will get the production ball rolling! Thanks.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 21:54:12 (ZULU) 

Good point about the oal to fit the mag. The Berger vld, while very accurate, is too long to load in the mag. I'm speaking of a Rem 700 SA magazine. Also, the Sierra 142 MK is also too long for the mag. when seated 0.010" off lans. To me these are drawbacks. Same deal with Bergers 175 and 185 vld for 308.

So far, the Sierra 140 MK is the only one that I can get an OAL and the seating depth I want that will fit the magazine. Best load so far for the 140 MK is 37 gr N135. Probably as tad fast on burn rate but no pressure and good accuracy.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 22:28:14 (ZULU) 

I have read just about every thing that has been said on here, and have found nothing on the 270. I have a friend who was in Delta Force and he told me a 270 would "take the head off someone at 500yds" I'm looking a savage bolt action 270 and would like any input y'all could give me.

David
David Ruggles <DRuggles@sccunix.sampson.cc.nc.us>
Clinton, NC, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 22:44:44 (ZULU) 

What a generous donation to the cause!

Any other manufacturers "lurking" that want to help make Carlos Two
the Shoot of the Century?

I'll say it again, Be THERE, or BE SQUARE dudes!

Chao!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Friday, February 05, 1999 at 22:47:49 (ZULU) 

Pat, I forgot earlier, the last Leupold I bought (also the most recent leupold I bought) had a problem with the elevation adjustment in that it would go all the way up but only come down about two clicks below center. Leupold did agree to fix the scope after some arguement. It is possible that you scope is just broke or not put together correctly. BTW- the scope I had trouble with was new in a sealed box and never fired a shot because it wouldn't bore sight in my rifle. one thing I have noticed is that Leupolds tend to jump if you try to make fine adjustments, what I mean is that you dial a click and nothing happens to the POI, after three or four clicks it will pop loose and give you everything at once. I finally started adjusting them like a manual lathe or mill, dial past by an inch or two then come back and go past again which ever way to take out the back lash, then to the final desired setting. These problems are all with scopes purchased within the last year (five of mine and three of friends), older ones don't seem to do this as much.

Jeff, is your 260 built on one of your model 70 classic short actions? if so they have a spacer at the back of the mag box, just pop the spot welds loose and then weld/solder the seam at the rear of the box. This will give you about .250 more length with no other mods. (if it's a remmy I think you are SOL)

Bruce, Pat ect. what I said about the scopes didn't come across very clear. The reason is that the reticle sits inside a tube. The adjustment knobs and the return spring move the inner tube around inside the outer scope tube, therefore maximum elevation requires a zero windage setting (actually is just needs to be close)

David, the problem with the .270 seems to be lack of bullet development, there is very little available between 6.5 and .308.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA, USA - Saturday, February 06, 1999 at 00:27:52 (ZULU) 

Zero,
I have played with trying to determine the exact weight of the trigger on my 700 and I finally decided that it is difficult to duplicate the exact test 2 times in a row. For instance, if the thing you place on the trigger varies in location from one test to the next by even a little bit, the trigger will fire sooner or later. As you move the bar closer to the bottom of the shoe, leverage is increased and the pull will be lighter. also If you are lifting the rifle differently and changing the vertical position of the barrel you can get different readings. Also, the way that you pick up the rifle can influence when the trigger trips. I'd be more inclined to believe that the variation that you are getting lies more with your test methods that exists in the trigger.

Last comment. For those who find that they are having trouble with their bdc's and ammo which does not match their dials. There is no reason to "come up short" You just need access to a chronograph and a good reloading manual or a ballistic software program. Once you find the velocity of your load, look at the back of a reload manual and find out how much the bullet drops from a 100 or a 200 yard zero. If the book says the bullet will drop 400 inches at 1000 yards from a 100 yard zero at a given veloctiy, then that bullet better be hitting 40 inches high at 100 yards if you want to be on at 1000. You then find out how many clicks it takes to get the bullet to hit 40 inches high and there you are! Nothing beats actualy shooting at 1000 yards but this will get you close. Once you have all of your zero's , (the number of clicks it takes to get on at different ranges) the best thing to do is commit them to memory! This is not an impossible task. Every 4th grade child is required to memorize 20 times that much info with their multiplication and division tables. If you do this then you will be able to dial in the range even when it is too dark to read the dials.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 06, 1999 at 00:30:12 (ZULU) 

Out here

(And thanks again for the reply)! Might I add the ONLY reply!
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Saturday, February 06, 1999 at 05:14:31 (ZULU) 

I have a heavy barrel Ruger 77V in .308 caliber that I use as a back-up weapon for my Remington PSS. I shoot it occasionaly to stay in touch with the trigger pull, but I have to say, that it is not "sniper grade" by any definition. The best group that I have been able to get out of it is 1.25 inches at 100 yards. I consider this piss poor for a sniper weapon. My PSS will shoot .5 all day long. I have heard horror stories about the accuracy of Rugers. Try yours and see how it does. When you get tired of trying to shoot straight with it, get a Remington.

****************************************************

Its not what we do..............Its what we are!
Randy Stoddard <onesht1kil@yahoo.com>
PC, Oklahoma, USA - Saturday, February 06, 1999 at 10:04:42 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the replies to my first message, now I would like a little more information if y'all don't mind.

I'm looking at the Savage Model 111FXP3 because my local Wal-mart has it, there are not any true gun stores in town. Wal-mart has it in .270 and 7mm. Both of these are factory boxed rifles w/scope. I am also looking at a Remington Model 7400™ Synthetic .30-06 Sprfld.

I would appreciate any of your comments,

David
David Ruggles <DRuggles@sccunix.sampson.cc.nc.us>
Clinton, NC, USA - Saturday, February 06, 1999 at 17:31:41 (ZULU) 

Best Regards,

Bill

Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 00:51:54 (ZULU) 

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.com>
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 00:53:57 (ZULU) 

Larry
Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 04:42:57 (ZULU) 

I agree whole heartedly that it is the man behind the weapon who ultimately makes the 0.5 moa or less shot look easy, but you have to reduce the variables of the weapon itself for it to make this shot everytime it counts, and one of the biggest variables is the manufacturing tolerances held on the barrel. Every manufacturer has to hold their internal barrel tolerances within SAAMI specifications, the closer to minimum, the better. As a barrelmaker, I have seen many different barrels from many different manufacturers and I will say that Ruger holds the loosest and most inconsistent specs on their internal barrel tolerances that I have seen from any major arms manufacturer. My brother in law owns a Ruger M77 in 30-06, swears by it, kills his deer every year, one shot. But that is a 10" kill zone. I have a Remington 700 300 Win Mag in an H-S Precision vertical grip stock, H-S precision barrel made by yours truly. We built a 300 yd range, benches at 1,2, and 300 yds, and he shoots his Ruger on a regular basis, had never shot mine before. When we zero at 100 yds, both using 165 grain Sierra Gamekings, his spread is 1.75" with the Ruger. He uses the H-S gun and shoots a 5 shot spread inside his Ruger's, about .65" or so. Now you tell me the difference between a good or bad barrel. Well he told me. He said and I agree that a Ruger is fine if you are hunting deer, but to put a group on paper, a Ruger barrel isn't the one of choice. 200 yds definitely told the story, both guns are zeroed at 200 yds, the Ruger would not hold any group as the good barrel held its own. This is my latest experience with the Ruger M77, don't trust it, won't own one.
Our ballistician told me one time that the only way a Ruger barrel will shoot is if you never clean the barrel, also said they made a great crowbar, and I agree.

thanks
JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 04:49:48 (ZULU) 

Love

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
I'mmmmmm Back (I think) in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 05:27:49 (ZULU) 

By the way, At first I thought that I was pulling the shots, and that
I was the problem, but I was handed a Rugar M77, 6mmPPC,
that my partner had, and this weapon has always fired perfect
0.3-0.4 MOA patterns. I shot two 0.3 perfect triangles at 100 mtr.
so it was not me jerking the shots off on the 700. Love my new
Remington, but that trigger has to go.. Help......
By the way, for folks that have a Nightforce NP-1 scope, take a
pair of dark sunglasses to the range to shoot with on a bright day.
The light gathering charicteristics of this scope make it almost too
bright to use on a bright day when the sun is not at your back.
Thanks
Thor.

Thor <Charlie01M@aol.com>
Conyers, Georgia, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 06:40:49 (ZULU) 

Then you can decide whether to go ahead and adjust the trigger. The chances of something showing up after 200 rounds are nill. Then, you can go with a jewel trgger (at around $200) or adjust the trigger yourself.

Also consider this... Remington has gotten rid of most of their skilled repair gunsmiths, and no longer does about 80% of the repairs that are sent to Illion, NY. They have a triage system... the gun comes in, and is sent out to an "Authorized" repair station, who does the work (sometimes badly) and you get it back from them. You send it to Rem, you get it back from Podunk. So if you aren't going to get Rem work, don't send it to them. Send it to an "authorized" repair shop, and the shop doesn't give a rats ass about the trigger pull, will fix your problem, and bill Remington... so you can adjust your trigger, and have warrantee protection at the same time.
Pablito
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 12:23:55 (ZULU) 

The Remington factory trigger setting is not dictated by the shooter, or common sense, but by the lawyers and the outcome of civil trials. My PSS came with an 8 1/2 pound trigger. That amount of a trigger pull does not make sense to me for a sniper grade weapon. I did not send it to Remington, as I wanted it back sometime this century. Just use a competent gunsmith. They should be able to adjust the trigger, and have it back to you shortly. Mine took about 4 hours. It is now at 3 pounds and shoots great.

*************************************************
Its not what we do,..............Its what we are!
*************************************************

Randy Stoddard <onesht1kil@yahoo.com>
PC, Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 14:30:28 (ZULU) 

My 260 is a Rem SA, so I'm SOL as far as mag. lenght.
A few months ago ( when I had some money), I bought a M70 classic featherweight in 280 Rem. It was used but the price was good. I got it for the action,solely. I'm waiting to get money (ain't we all), and at some point will use the M70 action for maybe a 6.5mm/06 (you see this Al O. ?) or a 3006 Ack Imp. I don't know. It's just gathering dust now , maybe sometime in the future.

Pat:

I haven't tried Hornady 140gr Amax in 260 yet. I have one box that I got molyed... long-ass bullets.

On impulse, I removed the barreled action from my 308 and dropped it into a stock I got from Walt at Technicarbon Dynamics. I spent about an hour and a half talking to Walt, and decidided to try one of his stocks sight unseen. It seems I remember his telling me that no bedding or anything was necessary.. just drop in and go. This was 2 or 3 months ago. I got the stock and just held onto it until week before last.

Anyway, so I drop in and tighten the two screws that came with the stock. Different allen head size so I just guestimated the torque cause I couldn't use the torque wrench. I have taken it to the range and put approx 130 rds. thru and the accuracy is just as good a it was. No accuracy loss whatsoever that I can detect. I left the scope attached to action when I did this and the only change from the prior setup was one minute of elevation in the scope setting. It appears to be a good fit and the barrel floats from the lug forward. Plus, the shape of the stock is much, much more amenable to good position. Meaning that, when shooting prone, I can hold steadier and with way less tension and therefore shoot better. I thought the accuracy would suffer for sure but it hasn't.

The big struggle that I've been having all along is that I've never really been able to have rifle properly on target AND acheive a settled, stable overall body position. It would be one or the other. Always thought it was me just doing something wrong, which is true, but now, it seems that a change in stock type or design has had something to with it. I'm rattling on a bit here but this was a nice surprise in a couple of ways. Understand that I'm speaking about prone position only at this point and being still a newbie, I've much to learn.

So, gentleman, is there something I need to check or recheck on this " changing stocks in mid-stream "? It looks like a good thing, but I thought I'd throw it out for a look-see.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 14:30:37 (ZULU) 

Have been doing just what you said. Before I took weapon to
range, broke weapon down for inspection. The magizine follower
looked like someone had chewed on it, lots of sharp edges and
burrs. Belt sander and buffing wheel took care of the probable
causes of feed malfunctions due to this. we inspected each casing
right after firing, and again last night over a cup of coffee.
Completely broke weapon down last night for cleaning and
inspection again. Trigger is the only thing that I have found so
far. Will attempt to get it adjusted locally, and if it is still a problem,
Then a Jewell is going in. Luckily money is not an issue on this
project, as getting back into serious precision and tactical shooting
is my number one project for me.
I was somwhat suprized at the small area of threads Remington
uses for the receiver mount bolts. I am used to working with the
Mauser large ring actions for my high power rifles, and they
have enough thread area to bolt down a tank. It almost looks
like Remington has gone for simplicity in manufacturing verses
reliability in this area.
Even though the Nightforce NP1 8x32-56 scope is too big for
tactical use, and rapid target aqusition is limited by the narrow
field of view and short depth of focus, the scope set on x32
took any guess work out of zeroing the weapon. Even with
the trigger causing shots to be pulled, it was simply dial it in at
100 meters. The pencil width cross lines on the standard 100
meter zeroing target stood out bright and clear in the scope.
My shooting partner may put a Nightforce scope on his 6mmPPC
Rugar M77, replacing his Leupold. He has a few years and his
eyes are not as good as they once were, but he found yesterday
that he could see the frayed edges of the holes in the taget with
my scope, and could not do that with his good spotting scope,
nor his Leupold.

Thor
Thor <Charlie01M@aol.com>
Conyers, Georgia, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 15:02:02 (ZULU) 

JR,
you are the man, I REPEAT, YOU THE MAN!
Guys, heres a barrel maker for a MAJOR PLAYER in the field giving very poignant views on a Ruuu...., Ruug..... Ruuuuggghhhh.... They are fine hunting rifles, with some innovative features, but Tactical Rifles they are not. I was made privy to OEM test fire range specs for Ruuuu.., a few years back, NOT ACCEPTABLE for headshots, otay for deer.

Mr. O'BOPM-DUDE, no flame meant SIR!
Ruuhh, They do not even compare to a Sauer rifle does a Pacer compare to a Mercedes?
Does a 77/.22 OEM trigger compare to an Anshutz or Walther?
Is that .5 MOA at 100 yards or 500, factory or handloads, three shot groups, five shot groups, ten shot groups? I concur with "end-user" aspect, but has any major agency adopted the Ruuugg..... for tactical use?

David Ruggles, my man check on a Remington at Wal-Mart before you go Sav'age. Spend a little extra and get ready to rock.

Grampster,

dude, according to Scott Duff "The M-1 Garand: WWII" pp. 95-96:
"Due to the design of the M1s action, both the M1C and M1D located the scope offset to the left of the normal line of sight. As a result of this both rifles incorperated the use of a leather cheek pad with felt inserts to bring the riflemans head and eye in line with the scope. The T-4 Cheek Pad, adopted in October 1944, was designed to be attached to the stock with two wood screws and leather laces"

further in appendix listing:

SNL B-21 Standard nomenclature list, List of all partsof rifle, U.S.,CAL..30 M-1; and Rifle, U.S., Cal..30 M1C and M1D (sniper's); 10 Jan 1945

TB 23-5-7 -U.S. rifle,Cal..30, M1C (Sniper's) 7 March 1944

TM-9-1275 TECHNICAL MANUAL June 17th, 1947

TM-9-1005-222-35 Depo Manual Feb 1966

NOTE****** any type errors are mine and NOT MR. Duffs.
I have a friend down the street with a warehouse full of Garands, and WILl contact him Monday, visually inspect BOTH an M-1C and M-1D and post for you "Pops. you'RE A damn troublemaker, you ARE!

Off to Rampage and Pilage ze Vorld!!!!!!!!

Chao!

peteR

PS is that good enough for ya stevie'nato'bright?

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 15:20:45 (ZULU) 

I was disatisfied with the groups I was getting and called Ruger. Their 'requirements' were that it shoot under 1.5" @ 100 yds. I told them that was a 'pattern,' not a group. They said that if I was dis-satisfied to return it. It went out the next day. I got it back shortly, they had replaced the bolt which solved the extraction problem I had but had not mentioned. They informed me the 'tech' had gotten a 1" group. When I asked what range, they said, 'Ours...' I finally weaseled out of them that it was Federal match ammo at 50 YARDS! I was so dumbfounded that I forgot to ask but I am sure it was a 3 shot group.

I still like Rugers, why I don't know, maybe because I have so many, BUT I now have an AR10-(T)and am working on it.

Ruger is a Chevrolet... It is a good functional hunting rifle that most folks can afford. I guess if you want a 'Sniper,' (read Cadilac), it will cost a little more.
Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 15:33:28 (ZULU) 

JUST A THOUGHT TO HELP US PREVIOUSLY "HUNTING ONLY" ROOKIES!

For you semi guys, need toughts on Colt Delta Elite Match rifles.

Thanks, Bolt the pest

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 15:36:59 (ZULU) 

I haved owned more guns than I will ever admit, among them a few Ruger long guns in 220 swift. Would it be the gun I pick up to shoot for money? Nope. Would it be the gun I pick up to shoot paper at 500 meters? Nope. Is it just about the only gun I use on 'yotes and other varmit types out to 500 meters or so? Seems to be.

To compare a $449 box stock Ruger 77 to any high precision rifle [HS Precision] for example, well, just ain't fair to either gun. An operator that bets his life, and the life of his mates, on the ability to take one shot and make one shot needs the highest quality he can afford. As a *field* gun though, I assure you that if you are familiar with the gun you are shooting, and have pushed the several thousand rounds through it you should, the difference between a .5 moa and a 1 moa gun at 3 or 4 football fields is lost on 'yotes and the like. Dead is dead.

I have no reason to believe that what has been posted here regarding the Ruger barrel tolerance is anything but true. I am not in that profession, so I will not argue about it. What I do know, and what I see all the time, is people going to the field with guns that they don't need, because they cannot shoot. I always recall in debates like this what my grandfather said over and over and over again to us boys growing up "the gun can't hunt for you". As a kid I was so damned envious of the custom carrying hunters as I would listen to them chat about rifles. Most of them, I learned later, sat with unfilled tags. My old 06 was in the truck somewhere, the meat was home hanging in a tree.

With that said, would I prefer a precision rifle over a scarred up Ruger 77? Absolutely. Do the varmits care? Well, they don't seem to care much about that inch or two:)

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 15:46:15 (ZULU) 

Once again thanks for the info and thanks to the only other gentleman that took the time to answer.

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 16:15:41 (ZULU) 

Forgot in the AM frenzy, rifle may have been an arsenal refinish, the holes may have been drilled as a "Field Modification" at some point, MAYBE a different scope n' mount?
In the words of the most sage amongst us, use what works for you to shoot comfortably my friend.

Stevie, ya get the E-mail man?

Guys, Shoot straight and often!

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 17:31:01 (ZULU) 

I'm a newbie myself to tactical rifle. First of all , you have come to the right place to learn. A lot of experience and expertise here. From the possibilities you mentioned, this is what I suggest.

1. Remington M700 Police rifle in 308 Winchester.

2. Leupold 4.5 x 14 x 40mm tactical w/ mildot reticle or Leupold 3.5 x 10 x 40mm LR M3. ( the 4.5 x 14 will need tapered bases for 1000yd elevation)

3, Tactical rings and base from Badger or MWG.

4. Harris bipod 9" x 13" S series.

5. Sling: I plan to get one from Mike (un-dude) when I have the bucks.

I would also consider bedding over the alum. block w/ Devcon or Marinetex. Some folks would disagree w/ me on this .

Also, you might want to read an article Scott (xring) wrote a few months back for, I beleive, it was Tactical Shooter magazine. Very infomative article that delt specifically with the 700P if memory serves.

6. A good quality rifle case or drag bag.

7. Good basic cleaning equipment.

All the above could be had for under 2000.00 easily. If you have extra money still, I would look at buying and learning to use reloading equipment. You can save a fortune reloading your own, and you'll learn to craft ammo that will shoot better in your rifle than the best store bought.

Understand, I'm a newguy too. I've learned much from paying attention to the folks who are experienced, trained regulars that are willing to share their knowledge at SC. I'm not a gunsmith or anything, so if others have better suggestions, LISTEN to them. As far as I'm concerned, this is THE place.

Hope this helps some,

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 22:33:38 (ZULU) 

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Sunday, February 07, 1999 at 23:15:03 (ZULU) 

Just got off the phone with a gentleman that use to work on M1Cs and M1Ds and M21s. If his memory serves him correctly, he told me that quite often the holes in the cheek piece didn't line up with the spec holes in the stock. His way of mounting the cheek piece was (follow at your own risk!!) to wet the leather and mold it to the stock then put the screws through the leather into the pre drilled holes. He also said that they quite often drilled the holes where they damn well pleased. Also stated that the new cheek piece isn't goverment contract and are often different sizes.

Howdy Pat I

T.J. you still out there ? Your name was taken in vain at the gun show this weekend.

Pat II
Pat II <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 01:45:28 (ZULU) 

Prozac is needed in huge quantities!
Bill <billmohr@borg.com>
central, ny, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 02:59:33 (ZULU) 

Aren't most the guys here interested in Sniper Rifles? I think maybe that is why most folks suggest a MilDot Reticle. I tried some different scopes and reticles, but finally settled on a MK4 M1 with the Mildot. When it comes to rifles and scopes,I believe in getting the best you can afford, then work on becoming a skilled marksman. I use it for Long Range known distance shooting, Varmint Hunting, and just starting to shoot some Tactical/Sniper matches of known and unknown distances. It works great. I was going buy a laser range finder, but for now I'll spend that money on training.
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 03:41:57 (ZULU) 

Hey it gave me something to write about. It's good to vent it something has you going buggy!
I see guys at the range who have genuine sniper rifles ( a real M24 ) and don't know anything about it. They shoot it once or twice a year. The damn thing cost them nearly $6000. Duh? Collectors I guess.

Best regards,

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@Aol.com>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 03:49:31 (ZULU) 

Bill @ Borg: The reason most civies (myself included) on this site want the mil-dot is because for whatever reason, they are trying to learn the ropes of "long range target interdiction" or sniping. At least, that's what is usually assumed since it's not varmintshootercountry.com! There are some practically automatic perspectives because of the nature of the site. Other sites or lists may automatically recommend the opposite gear!

Your point is still valid though, whenever people get onto Duty Roster and say "What's the best scope?" the answer should always be "Well, what's it for?" Sometimes the answer to that might be "I'm an LE sniper in an urban area" or sometimes it might be "I want a sniper rifle I can also hunt deer with in the woods near my house. That said, most folks on this site seem to end up wanting the Mil-Dot.

When you get your Prozac, be sure to share it with us. :)

Everyone: Get this. Leupold came out with a new ARD (like the Tenabraex KillFlash.) The literature says, and I quote: "The ScopeSmith Anti-Reflection Device (ARD) snaps into 40mm fixed objective scopes that are non-threaded."

But, here's the good part. I sent an email to Leupold and got the reply "The ARD will not fit the LR 3.5-10"!!! Am I the only one that finds this mind-boggling? Not that I'm in love with ARDs, mind you, but it seems rather perplexing... Maybe it was the 12 hours I spent driving this weekend...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 04:08:33 (ZULU) 

MAKE SURE you check out the Ballistics page, WAY COOL, MOST EXCELLENT selection to S/C.

This site still most awesomely ROCKS!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 12:45:26 (ZULU) 

I’d pretty much settled on an HK USP 40; I’ve heard nothing but good things about them. The only problem is I'd like to be able to take what ever I get with me deer hunting. Iowa allows you to carry both handgun and shotgun, but you can only use one per animal. I seem to have a knack for having deer run right up to me, and a fast moving deer at 15-30yds is not a very good application of a single-shot scoped shotgun. While the 40 s&w is a legal round, a friend used it this year and it took a total of 9 shots to bring down a small doe. The first only dropped it because it hit the spine, the other 8 were to keep from getting kicked while he was tagging it, he said he'll never try that again. Also I’ve heard that the .40 is not really an inherently accurate round and others are preferred for target shooting.

I'm new to shooting in general, and even newer to handguns. I've shot a 357 mag revolver with a 6" barrel and an S&W Sigma in .40 s&w. I think I'd prefer an automatic to a revolver. Also keep in mind that I'm talking short range only, 15-50yds. I'll be packing a scoped shotgun that puts 3 shot groups into 1" at 50yds so I'm not going to be taking any long shots with a handgun.

I realize that I may have to just buy two guns if I want an auto for target/defense and still want one for hunting. But, I’ve got a limited budget of both time and money. I thought it would be both cheaper and wiser to buy one gun and get really good with it.

Requirements are .357 or larger caliber and min 4" barrel. I am considering 357 mag, 10mm auto, 41 rem mag, 44 mag, 45ACP.

What feedback can I get on the 10mm and what pistols are chambered for that round. I've only found Colt Delta Elite and Glock 20. Does any one know of any others? How would performance compare to the others? Is the 10mm a good round for target shooting? Does anyone have any experience with either?

What would the general recommendation be on 45ACP in that application, I don't think it is normally used for hunting, how would it perform, worse than the .40?

I’m also considering S&W Revolvers for the magnum cartridges since MR's Desert Eagle is not an option; I can just barely reach the trigger on the thing. I’ve heard the 41 mag is the best compromise between the 357 and the 44, Flat shooting and accurate with plenty of punch. Any feedback and/or suggestions?

Sorry for the long-winded handgun post, but I figured one big one would be better than 32 little ones as everyone asked me a bunch of questions I could have answered the first time. ;-)

Thanks for all the info on long range shooting, I really like my Rem 700P.

My .02 on Rugers, I liked mine, but I couldn't get it to group good, and sold it. What I've noticed in the shooting mags is that Ruger's usually shoot a particular load much better than others, while others did rather poorly. Where my Rem 700 shoots everything well with little difference between loads. Not sure what that means, it's just a newbie's observation/experience. I wouldn't trade my custom 10/22 for anything though ;-)

Tim <timbaird_73@yahoo.com>
Fairfield, IA, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 13:16:46 (ZULU) 

re: 40 cals and accuracy. The .40 cal does indeed have a reputation for inaccuracy. It comes from the fact that the early .40 cals were simply bored up 9mm guns and were not optimized for .40 caliber rounds. There is no inherant reason that a .40 cal would be any less accurate than a 9mm or a .45 ACP. My stock Berreta 96FS routinely does 2-3" groups at 50 feet. I even had a guy at the range disbelieve that I was using a .40 because of that accuracy (I had to proove it. He probably still thinks I was cheating somehow.) With any round, it's 90% the quality of the shooter which decides accuracy.

re: Hunting handguns. Forget the auto for hunting. I know that people do it, some even successfully, but don't. With hunting you have more at stake than simply getting a deer to die. If you are conscientious hunter, you will also want to do it cleanly and quickly, and you will not need to chase a wounded animal for three miles just because you don't have the accuracy or firepower to make a good kill.

If you want a good combination of firepower and accuracy, then you should consider a good revolver. A Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk in 44 Mag can be had for about $400. Both will beat the accuracy of nearly any sub $2000 auto (my .45 Colt RH does 1.5" groups at 50'), and the .44 mag is probably a minimum caliber for reasonably sized deer. (a .40 cal is deffinately too light.) A revolver will be easier to maintain in field conditions as well. You don't need the advantage of a magazine load for deer. Unless you really piss them off and they organize an ambush against your party. "Charlie Six, Charlie Six, we need dust off immediately, we've gor deer in the wire..."

Remember, if you hunt, you have a resposibility to do it properly. Anyone can plug 28 rounds into an animal to kill it. But that's just irresponsible shooting. If you don't have the shot, don't take it, and if you do, drop him cleanly, or get ready for a chase. If you want to hangun hunt, get a good accurate revolver (or maybe a TCC) and practice until you can make tight groups at 100-150 feet.

We all have a resposibility not to give the anti gun lobby any more ammunition to use against us. This means using all guns properly and responsibly.

Andre
Andre Peterson <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 14:30:37 (ZULU) 

Pablito,
Welcome back we were worried you had left us.

Jeff A,
Thanks for the come back on the 260. I got out this weekend and did some more load testing and will send you some crono info on different powders I tried. I had sort of gave up on Varget and the 142s because of the length but I tried some 142s with 37grs of Varget loaded mag length and they shot 10 shots into 2.2 at 400yds and a 5 shot at 1.6 so I think I will try them again. The Pac Nor barrel is fnatastic, smooth as any I have ever had and broke in in 25rds!! I shoot 25 to 30 rounds and have about 2 patchs with any blue then nothing!! (I am not shooting off a bench at 400, using the ground and a bipod as I would for tactical shooting).

Pat L,
Where you been hiding? You need to keep in better touch so we know what your up to(HA) Have you been doing any shooting lately??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 14:35:39 (ZULU) 

Tim in Fairfield,
I agree wholeheartedly with Andre. Stick to a good revolver and also choose your shots carefully. My personal handgun limit is 50 yards. The .357,.41, and the .44 will all kill farther out; but why take the chance of having a cripple get away and die a long lingering death. Whichever one you go with, shoot it a whole bunch and then shoot it some more. Pistols are a lot tougher to master than long guns. If you choose to practice with light loads, make sure you also shoot a fair amount of the loads you will use for hunting. Have fun and watch the front sight.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 15:13:48 (ZULU) 

Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 15:28:17 (ZULU) 

Pablito
USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 16:15:07 (ZULU) 

Thanks
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 16:18:26 (ZULU) 

Thanks,

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 16:50:12 (ZULU) 

Myself, I don't own a sniper rifle. My 700 VS 308 is what it is, a heavy varmint rig. Topped with a scope suited to its purposes, target. I suppose that if I hunted more I would use a scope for that purpose. But I doubt that I could justify a mil-dot scope for praire dogs.

As a matter of fact I was just reading on Springfield Armory's site about their hunting scopes. They have a nice ranging system

Bill M

Bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 17:12:49 (ZULU) 

Bill,
I like you could not see much use for the mil dot until I got one. the mil dots are very good references for hold over and lead and thats if you dont use it for range finding and Bruce has made that easy with the Mil Dot Master, before knocking it, you may want to give it a try, as they say, "Try it you might like it".
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 17:29:53 (ZULU) 

I have met Randy Landon of Landtec Rifles Inc. He is located in London KY. He showed me some test targets from his display rifles. All were under 1/2 moa. He tends to use the HS Precision stocks. Ditto for their Barrels. He likes to have interested buyers come out to his shop to help them determine just what features they need on a rifle.
I have never heard anything but good things about Randy. Let me know you need his phone number.

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 17:50:21 (ZULU) 

Whats the squabbling over Mil-Dots, ain't nobody else ever used a duplex and bracketed for range? I'm certainly "Tactically Challenged" and see nothing sinister about Mil-Dots, duplex reticles or any means of rangefinding.
Ask Dick or Chris Thomas how many mil-dot reticles they've installed in scopes for them thar fancy bb guns used for Silhouette and Field Target in the past decade.

Improvise, Adapt, Overcome....... Oh WHAT-EVER!

mAN-yAWN-aH Dudes!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 18:16:41 (ZULU) 

The match next month is preempted by a high-power event, the next long-range tactical rifle match will be April 4th. I'm going to suggest we set up an Easter-egg shoot to commemorate the holliday.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 19:17:14 (ZULU) 

I thought I'd go ahead and post Landtec's Address and Phone number in case someone else wants to call them.

Landtec
1200 Oneil Road
London KY 40741

Phone 606 864 2686

Fax 606 864 9106

They used to send out a catalog of products and services available, and they probably still do.

Randy Landon is the owner.

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 19:36:41 (ZULU) 

I also like .41 Magnum, I have a S&W 657 Hunter that is finally starting to shoot as well as it looks. Freedom Arms now has a version of their single-action revolver in .41 and the reviews I've seen say it's a screamer, capable of MOA accuracy at 100 yards.

But if I had to hunt or snipe with a handgun, I'd count on my T/C Contender with 14-inch .30-30 barrel and Burris 2.5x7 scope. Corbon has a load for it that pushes a 150gn hunting bullet 2100fps. Accuracy rivals that of a rifle, it hits anything you point it at out to 200 yards, and it's got the best trigger of any gun I own.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 19:38:00 (ZULU) 

I have been following your comments about the Mudville Militia and their Long Range Tactical Matches. Sounds like a blast to me. I want to come out shoot with you guys, if I can get my chief pilot to approve me loading my Rifle case into the cargo hold of the airplane ( I am a Pilot and get weekend stopovers in San Jose ) Directions to the range would be appreciated.
When is the High Power match? I may come out to shoot in that too.

Thanks,

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville , KY, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 19:44:35 (ZULU) 

I am short on time so i'll just toss in a few words. You all have covered it pretty well.
Mil-dot is just a duplex with more precision. If you can learn to range with a duplex for deer, using a mil-dot is just more precise. Do you need it for deer? Hardly. Is it nice to have when you see the deer of a lifetime at 475 yards? Absolutely. But like someone said, this is a "sniper" site so we kind of lean toward that kind of gear. It don't mean a thang.

Break-in. Yes, you can re-break-in a rifle, or more correctly, break it in for the first time. Most plain old meat hunters do not even know of the concept. Hell most don't even shoot their hunting rifle for 10 rounds a year, and that is usually a day before the opener! I would highly recommend re-breaking-in any rifle purchase. Some thoughts: PeteR mentioned Hoppes BR9. With all due respect to Pete, this is not the cleaner of choice to remove the nasty build up you will find in an uncared for rifle. BR9 is a great cleaner for a top quality barrel with few imperfections. But if you want to get all the copper out of a factory bore, using BR9 could take a decade. I am talking days of repetative cleanings. No, if you want to get it out completely and get it out quick, Sweets 7.62 is about it. This stuff is nasty and aggessive but it will do the job. Follow up with a lot of dry patches and then follow up with Hoppes number 9 - the regular kind, not the copper eater! NOTE: Never allow Sweets and Shooters Choice in the same barrel at the same time. The results will make you feel real stupid.

Once you have gone at it with the Sweets, and dried the bore out, try JB bore compound. This stuff will get every last trace of copper that the sweets missed. Follow the instructions closely. Once done with that (per instructions), follow up with plain old Hoppes again. Hoppes is a good mild cleaner that can be used to "wash" the barrel out, getting rid of all the crap.

After break-in, you should not need a heavy copper cutter like Sweets. I like to use Shooters Choice MC#7 for a regular cleaner, but I still follow up on the dried out bore with Hoppes. You could use alcohol as an alternative. I just have this thing about not leaving a barrel that was cleaned with a strong clearer, sit with out a diluting agent. I use JB about every 100 rounds just to stay ahead of any build up and using this method have found that copper does not build up much after this. But every bore is different, so you will have to experiment to find what works.

Anyway, you can DEFINITELY bring back a bad barrel that was not properly broken in the first time.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 19:48:50 (ZULU) 

Ah, much better.

Bach: The Tenebraex ARDs are screw-in, and the LR M3 is unthreaded, so that probably won't work. The Butler Creek Sunshields should work though. By the way, I've expanded the early version of that article I sent you, going into a lot more detail about the Sunshield. Will have it ready when I get my film back and the pictures scanned in, etc. Will email you when it's ready.

Gramps!: I'd give Clint McKee at Fulton Armory a call. If he can't tell you eveything you want to know about the M1C cheekpiece I'd be stunned.

John: A while back, you posted one of many variations of Colonel Cooper's Four Rules:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle of your firearm cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target!
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

I prefer this version to the dozens of diluted versions I have read over the years. WRT your version, I certainly see no reason to change Rule 3 ("The Golden Rule") to be the 4th Rule, which seems like a recipe for confusion.

I encourage Duty Roster readers to become familiar with these rules, along with Colonel Cooper's Four Stages of Alertness.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 19:49:02 (ZULU) 

Well, now let's assume you don't have any reloading equipment yet. I use a RCBS "Rock Chucker" single stage press, with Forrester Bonanza Benchrest Dies. They have the "Micrometer" bullet seater, and a floating case and bullet alignment set-up. Bottom line is I don't get any bullet run out like I used to with the RCBS dies.
Bullet run out is when the bullet is seated in the case at an angle, causing inconsistant groups.
I use a Dillion vibratory case cleaner, with crushed walnut hull media to clean the cases. This saves the sizing die from excessive wear.
I also use a RCBS Hand Priming tool for the priming operation. I use Federal 210M Match Primers, but have had good results with Rem 9 1/2 primers too. I like Federal Match Brass because of neck-wall uniformity, Lapua is very good too.
I got a Stony Point Over all Length gauge set up to measure the length of my finished cartridges and to measure the freebore or length of the barrels throat. I try to duplicate the length and velocity of the Federal Gold Medal Match GM308M cartridges since this works so well in my rifle. 1/2 MOA is common.
I like Sierra 168's for ranges out to 600yds and Sierra 175's for anything over that.
For powder I like Varget. Vitta Vori N140 is very good too.
I should have listed this first, you need to get a good reloading manual, like Sierras or the Lyman manual. There is some good info in the book for begining reloaders, read and take your time. Most bullet manufacturers have a 1 800 line for techinical questions. Don't hesitate to call them for suggestions.
Check some of the reloading links here at SC too for some more info. This is not a complete listing of everything you need to think about, just an over view of some things to think about.
Handloading not only saves you money and produces very accurate ammo, it teaches you some ballistics and other things that affect accuracy.
There are Ballistic programs linked to Sniper Country so you can check out your handloads online too. JBM is a good one.

Well, sorry I got a little long here.
Best of luck,

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville , KY, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 22:54:56 (ZULU) 

Anybody seen the Sierra video tapes on reloading?
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, February 08, 1999 at 23:41:17 (ZULU) 

Thanks PeteR for the response on the R#@$% m77's, often I find myself outnumbered on that subject, and to all loyal Rugaah users, to each his own.

I was going to do some research on some weaponry, then I thought, hell I'll just ask the good folks at snipercountry. What was the military designation of the Remington bolt-action sniper rifles in the late '60's early 70's? And what would be the closest comparison from today's crop? I'm looking to build my father a close match to the 30-06 he used to promote democracy in SE Asia. I am sure that the stock was more of a sporter type stock than a tac, but I'm thinking about setting him up tac anyway. Any thoughts, suggestions would be appreciated.

Keep on shootin'

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 01:11:21 (ZULU) 

If anyone is contemplating putting a new rifle system together buy the best scope you can find buy it and then see what you have left over for the rifle. If you do it any other way you will regret it as much as I do.

The Shooter <shooter@unix.tamu.edu>
College Station, Tx, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 01:24:53 (ZULU) 

Torsten,(or anyone else who attended the Shot Show in Atlanta)can you tell us about all the nice new toys coming out this year ? Was the show any good at all ?

To Keith Camardo:I agree with Bill Rogers with getting a reloading starter kit.However, if you are just new to relading and are not quite sure if you know if you will like it or not, try the Lee Challenger Anniversary Kit.It has just about everything you will need at a fraction of the price of the RCBS kit.That way if reloading doesn't turn your crank, you won't be out a lot of money.However, I'd recommend the RCBS dies over the Lee ones.

Oh,and by the way, try ABC's of Relaoding by Dean G. .It is a nice introductory book that new reloaders should find helpful.I still use mine after having bought it 5 years ago.And if you are seriously interested in reloading than get yourself a subsription to Precision Shooting.While it is geared more for experienced reloaders I think you may find it helpful.

Also Keith,if you belong to a gun club then source out the most experienced reloader in your club and ask him or her lots and lots of questions!

Hope this helps,

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 01:53:25 (ZULU) 

Hope this helps...

Pablito
USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 02:01:30 (ZULU) 

He did say that everything he used was labeled "X", or experimental, and it was a Remington, I will check if it was M40-x or whatever, and he had the auto ranging scope. He said it took a hearing aid battery. I do believe he thinks the scope was a Redfield, but I'm not quite sure. It was a wood stock, but had to be laminated wood as he said they had to take them in every 30 days to be re-laminated, the stocks would warp so bad from the humidity of the area.

Anyone know of anything about 'Dragon's Teeth' during the Vietnam era??? I'll tell you what I'm trying to do here, I'm trying to get enough info and to pry some old memories out of the old man so I can get him to write some memoirs about his experiences as an Army sniper. He has some damn good stories to tell that I think everyone would get a kick out of. If anyone has something to offer, let me know.

adidas

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 02:50:15 (ZULU) 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 03:00:18 (ZULU) 

I have owned the Tasco SS10X42M. Great scope for the money. You can't go wrong with it. I also own a Leupold MK4 M1. I prefer the Leupold. Part of the reason is the type of reticle you have. The Tasco has circular reticles which is the Army version. My Leupold, from Premier Riticle, has Marine Corp reticle. Big difference between the two. The Army are round so calculating mils are different then the oval by the Marine Corp. Also, the Tasco is not a precise or positive when you click up or down, left or right. However, for the price, you can not be it. If you get Tactical Shooter, there was an aritcle about 4 to 5 months ago reviewing the Tasco scope. It had good reviews. I hope this helps.

You also mentioned that you have a AR15. You did not mention if it was a flat top, or did it have a floating barrel etc... I can only but presume. If you have a standard AR15, like myself, who wants a nice little scope I can recommend one to you. It is by Combat Military Optics. They have a good range sighting system built in with luminated reticles. It has a standard colt mount which fastens to the carrying handle of the AR15. I have been happy with this scope also.

Good luck on your quest for knowledge for the best scope for you.

Darren...

P.S.
SC did do a review of the Tasco scope. Check out the review section.

Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 03:19:53 (ZULU) 

I use a Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mil-dot on my 700VS .308. Would I be better off putting a M3LR on the .308 and putting the 4.5-14x50 on the AR? For those with experience with army and marine mil-dots, will having two scopes different affect my ranging abilities from an application standpoint?

For new reloaders, I have used a Lyman Mag-T turret press. I like the removable turrets, you don't have to reset the dies each time you changing calibers/dies. It is not much more than the single die presses.

Are there any shooters in the College Station or Houston area? Would like to find somebody to shoot and swap stories with.

Thanks for all the responses. Any help regarding modifications will be appreciated.
The Shooter <shooter@unix.tamu.edu>
College Station, TX, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 04:22:57 (ZULU) 

Last but NOT LEAST...the current administration is trying to SHUTDOWN GUNSHOWS, write , call, email your Congressperson and tell them to layoff !!!! I gotta sell all my junk to someone !!!
OUT HERE

PS, Scott, Money Order heading your way!!!!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Sunny, Deep South, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 04:48:27 (ZULU) 

Using a scope is subjective like anything else. What do you plan to do with it and What are your objective with this rifle! I can't really imagine a 50M lens on a AR15 but it does happen. However, On a bolt action I could see it happening. In fact, alot of individuals have it that way. I started that way with a B&L Elite 3000 5X15 50M scope. You really need to figure out your objective before anything else. I went through two scopes before I settled on my Leupold. Now I am a happy camper.

As for MIL Dots, yes it can have an affect. The dots them selves are measured differently. You can read about it in some publications. I would ask for - I think - September or October of Tactical Shooter. They explain it well, actually, very well. Their web site is www.tacticalshooter.com.

Here is one other sites that I would recommend you checking out;
My favorite AR15 site - www.ar15.com. Go to review, then to scopes. They review the Tasco scope there.

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 05:06:26 (ZULU) 

Jeff B
Thanks for the info re:the Chandler starter kit i`ll look into it.

Bill Bledsoe
Thank you,that is the kind of info that I was looking for,it gave me a list so I atleast have a starting point,something to take to the gun shops and start to compare prices.

Thank you, to everyone who has helped me.If it wasn`t for Scott A.K.A.
X-Ring I wouldn`t have gotten my V.S. or my 3.5-10M3LR.His articles are so well written and easy to understand that it made my two purchases extremly easy.I felt like I understood the products, and knew exactly what I wanted,and what to expect form them.Scott i`ve been wanting to tell you that for awhile now.Thank you for helping to empty my wallet and have fun doing it."What a sport ya gotta love it." Will Adams and Rick Bowcher also helped with the break-in process,you guys helped when I needed it the most.The new guy was "just gonna go shootin," and now everyone who pitched in on the reloading question.Thank you,Thank you everyone, "What a place,Ya gotta love it."

BATCAM1 OUT

Keith Camardo <BATCAM1>
BEAV, OR, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 05:34:15 (ZULU) 

The competition is comprised of two-person teams and will cover several days of the summer months, the dates have not been finalized as of yet.

Devious190/J.Scar
TNARNG/Monteagle

Devious190 <AIPDTANK.aol.com>
Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 06:02:22 (ZULU) 

Was great fun to see some of you, we should work on that scouting for Longhorns thought.

I´ll be back with some more details of SHOT when I get the Alligators bombed of my desk.

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 07:56:05 (ZULU) 

I saw that you got an answer to your question about the cheek piece for the M1D, but do you still have any need for the manual? If you do, I have an electronic version that I could e-mail you if you'd like. It's a scanned duplicate of the original Army manual (1969) in Adobe Acrobat (.pdf) format. I tried to e-mail you about this at the address you listed, mojoed@bellsouth.com, but it got returned with an "unknown user" error. If you're interested, please contact me by e-mail.

--Jim S.

Jim S. <sorcerer@cport.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 15:27:08 (ZULU) 

Roy out
Roy Thomason <thomason@cos.saic.com>
CS, CO, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 19:22:23 (ZULU) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 19:27:44 (ZULU) 

I have never seen any real GI M14 mags that weren't stamped on the back. I have two that are marked C.M.I., and suspect they are Chinese fakes. They don't feed worth a damn. I have a bunch of M14 mags, all others are the real thing. There are many different contractors who made M14 Mags. All seem to work real good.
If you are a highpower shooter and a member of your state rifle and pistol association, you can get two used M14 mags and two brand new ones per year from the CMP.
How's the M1A project? Any luck?

Later,

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville , KY, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 19:47:51 (ZULU) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 19:53:58 (ZULU) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 20:05:26 (ZULU) 

As always, thanks.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 20:50:33 (ZULU) 

D&L Sports
P.O. Box 651
Gillette, WY 82717
(307) 686-4008

That's from a book copyrighted 1997, no guarantee that it's current. I can't find an Internet address of any kind, sorry.

Jim S. <sorcerer@cport.com>
WA, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 21:13:43 (ZULU) 

D&L website http://www.vcn.com/~dlsports/.
Just tried it. It works.
Bill 971 <lhardin1@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 23:20:04 (ZULU) 

Hornady 178s. I just started testing the 178s. Mine are moly coated so i you're shooting non-molyd , I'd decrease the charge at least 1 -1.5gr to be on the safe side.

Anyway, I've loaded 43.0gr N140 in LC-90 cases, Rem 9 1/2 primers and seated bullet to give comparator measurement on 3.225" (this number may be irrelavant since comparator inserts probably vary). This does give an OAL of approx. 2.810" which will feed in a Rem 700n SA mag.This gave good accuracy out to 300 yd. I plan to try 44.0 gr N140 w/ some variation in seating depth just for the hell of it. So far , that's all I've done to date. Plan to try Varget, N135 and N150 just to see. If the bullets are not molyed, then I would suggest starting at 42.5 gr N140 if you use that powder; increase in 0.5 gr increments up to 44.0 gr and watch for pressure signs.

Hope this is at least a starting place. Let me know what happens.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Tuesday, February 09, 1999 at 23:41:48 (ZULU) 

Tony <abasanese@goisd.k12.mi.us>
MI, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 00:26:32 (ZULU) 

The Shooter <shooter@unix.tamu.edu>
College Station, TX, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 02:19:55 (ZULU) 

Hope this helps.
Big John <scratch@1st.net>
Shortcreek, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 03:21:24 (ZULU) 

OH NO! Dare we take up the subject about handguns again? Oh piss on it - I still like my Sig 220 45.

Us Ruger bashers have the right to be bashers. I had a Ruger M77 in a 220 Swift which held a unbelievably poor group of 3 to 3.5 inches at 100 yards. No matter what I did - rebedded it, different powder bullet combination. Nothing seemed to work. I got rid of that "rifle" faster than I would have an old sway back mule. Oh it did have a kill credit to it. One woodchuck at about 85 yards. There is one for the books - huh fella?

peteR: Nice to see you around. I've got your barrel whip for you. But I also got this article hot of the wire for you also.

" Worst Airline Disaster in West Virginia!! Today a Cessna 152 two seater slammed into a cemetary in central West Virginia. The Disaster Crisis System (also know as a bunch of DICS) have already uncovered 328 bodies and have regrettably acknowledged that many more a being discovered as digging continues through the night."

Rod: Hope you feel better after a bout with the Atlanta Flu.

I'm outta here and hopefully my internet won't take a dump again.

al
Al Ostapowicz (Fly-Boy) <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Back on your butts again in an obnoxious state of , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 03:35:22 (ZULU) 

Andy Anderson <gijoes@inreach.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 03:50:10 (ZULU) 

About stock screws, 65" pounds for a pillar bedded ot H.S. Stock is right. Take both screws from 35 to 65" pounds 5 at a time if you can. For info SxK makes a nice torque wrench for about $75.00

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif., USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 05:10:36 (ZULU) 

Dead Eye
Lee Erickson <ke4lbh@uswest.net>
Woodbury, MN., USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 09:29:47 (ZULU) 

fUNNY you should mention reading, I didn't know you had graduated from Crayons and paper?

While sipping my morning expresso and nibbling a Biscotti this morning I happened to notice The local papers headline today read:

"Ohier Flyboy GETS Slammed at Mountain!"

They interviewed some Depity at the scene and all he could say was "Its Horrible, Its Horrible... The poor Fly Boy" and some National Guard troops mobilized to the scene just got out the sponges.
*I hope you got the Energizer Bunny or W.W.F.'s Goldberg on your side, they are all that can save a poor Ohier-Fly-Boy-Duuuuuude. ;-)

well onwards to REALITY

How them Hornady 178's shooting guys?

Jeff A: VARGET dude, everything counts in 43.9 gr amounts. (non-LC/IMI). What bushing did ya go with for .308's?

Mr. Wylde-Thang: You still with us man? Have you had a chance to run them thar Hornady mini-ICBM's through your bench/machine rest thingee?

BillR: wwwhich flavor Bisley is your favorite, uh NOT TO TALK ABOUT?

Gramps: My Garand guy parroted Doc, Go figure?

Torsten: Ach, mein Kugleschreiber ist Kaput, but package promised on the way!

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 11:53:01 (ZULU) 

As with the Savage dispute earlier, I really don't care what others opinions are concerning these rifles; it is the results that count.

The owner of Master Class Stocks in Bellwood, PA has told me the real reason that you see very few Ruger actioned competition rifles has nothing to do with the quality of the action. They are as strong, or stronger than their competition, and flex about the same, maybe less due to the nature of the investment castings from which they are made. In case anyone thinks that system is unacceptable, consult a metallurgist, he will tell you the only thing stronger than an investment casting is a drop forging, and this is only true if the drop forging is properly heat treated. Investment castings are inherently stress-free, even machined parts have a tough time in that regard. The real reason for avoiding them is two-fold, the receiver is so hard that machining it is very difficult, and bedding them, due to the angled action screw, is very difficult. Most of the garbage you read about them is just that, garbage.

Let us be honest here, if you don't like the products don't buy them, but do not say they are not a quality product; that is simply not true. I defy anyone to show me a stronger, safer action than theirs, both in handguns and rifles. The only competition they have in handguns is Freedom Arms. Price one of those recently?

If you find the No.1 attractive, buy it and enjoy. There are few actions that are equally as pleasing to look at and function as smoothly. It may take a little time at the reloading bench to find the ideal load, but then again it may shoot straight from the box.
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer>
People's Rep. of, MD, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 15:55:11 (ZULU) 

Now some of you will be mad, but show me the groups and I don't mean 3 shots at 100 yards, after the bore has been fouled.

Yes you Savage guys are right I did say they shoot well. They just have a cheap stock and a bad trigger.

Pete, as soon as I run out of the 20lbs of IMR4064 I will try that Varget you swear by.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 16:20:51 (ZULU) 

I just finished reading "Marine Sniper", the true story of Carlos Hathcock. I'm sure that most of you have read it, but for those who haven't, get yourselves a copy ASAP. Don't wait...just get it. Boys, you will develop a much greater appreciation for the art of sniping, and those who do it, then ever before. What this man has accomplished, through very trying circumstances, is simply amazing. I'm of the opinion that this site wouldn't even be here if not for what he did. Read the book and see if you agree.

Sorry to take up all this bandwidth for essentially a book review, but I just couldn't help myself.

***We now return to our regularly scheduled program***
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 17:20:15 (ZULU) 

I would be interested in anyone out there producing published testing data that shows the Ruger action flexs to the point that it inhibits accuracy.
Fred
People's Rep. of, MD, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 18:07:23 (ZULU) 

Al-Ohhh,

#2 ! ? WAY TO GO FLYBOY!
Need a pardner for Carlos?

Mike M.: Just 20 pounds of 4064? Send it to Al-O he's going to need the practice just to keep up with collecting my brass..........

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-bIG-cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 18:38:17 (ZULU) 

Which Hornady ICBM's are you refering to???

Fred:

Do you know how many of those Ruger Palma rifles were used in the Palma Match? A lot of hype and free advertising went down on that rifle. The barrels were beyond belief. I borescoped one and nearly got sick!

If my old memery serves me properly, only two Ruger rifles were used in the Palma match. These rifles had nice stocks, actions with conventional bedding screws, great sights, good triggers, but the barrels were strictly third rate. I'm pretty sure one of the Ruger rifles used in the match had the original barrel. The other rifle may have been fitted with a new stainless barrel after being received by the Palma team.

This forced many of the team members to use their course rifles in the Palma. Not a very good situation, really.

Not trying to burst your bubbles........just history as I recall it.

Ruger makes great utility rifles. The real shining star is the little 10-22. With a decent barrel they will give the finest Anschutz a real run.

The greatest part of the trip to Raton in '92 was seeing Elkart,
Kansas.

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
WARM - SE, IL, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 19:50:04 (ZULU) 

Al, congrads on winning the June course!!!

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Chicago-land, IL., USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 20:57:03 (ZULU) 

My point is that there seems to be a propensity to knock these rifles, not based on fact, but on perceptions that are not necessarily true. Yes, I have seen these rifles with bad triggers, but I've seen Remingtons and Winchesters with terrible triggers as well. I own and have shot Rugers that do as well out of the box as anyone else's products. I've read of Remington PSS models that were in the author's words, "unacceptable". I recently had to return a Winchester Model 70 Super Express .375 H&H because the barrel was not square on the receiver. Why is it that we tacitly "accept" this sort of thing by the Big 2, send them off for repair, replacement, whatever, yet if a Ruger is similar in its problems, it is declared junk. Perhaps some of us do not recall when Win and Rem were producing, by today's standards, junk. For those of you that do not recall, do the words "post '64" mean anything? At that time, pressed checkering, lousy wood, and lousy finish work was the norm.

Unfortunately, product liability has severely affected the quality of any of the manufacturers triggers now installed on their products. You want reasonable pull weight, go see a 'smith, any problems after that, don't call the manufacturer, you'll need a lawyer. At the just completed SHOT Show, Harold Rolls and I inspected a really nice Winchester Low Wall chambered in .22 LR. It was a little beauty, with a trigger I would estimate at about 10 pounds, but of course it was tough to estimate since it felt like it was stuffed with sand. No manufacturer's products are immune, all I am saying here is to give these rifles the same respect we give other manufacturers. I seem to recall there was a spirited defense of Savage by several men last year on this forum, many felt they offer a lot for the money. I personally believe Ruger offers at least as much value, and controlled feed besides.

Fred
People's Rep. of , MD, USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 21:05:52 (ZULU) 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 10, 1999 at 22:36:21 (ZULU) 

Haven't tried Varget w/ 308 for 178s.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 00:07:16 (ZULU) 

Estes <estes@feist.com>
Flat-land, Kansas, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 00:41:54 (ZULU) 

American Rifleman had an article about the rifles. The Palma barrels were made by Green Mountain- whoever they are. Hard to believe isn't it? As of a several years ago Wilson made all of Ruger's barrels. Don't know that is the case now or not. This is a different Wilson than the one that makes quality handgun barrels.

Fred,
Stuart Otteson wrote the action rigidity article for "Rifle" magazine. He was an engineer and authored "The Bolt Action". Frank de Haas (correct spelling) was a gunsmith and the author of "Bolt Action Rifles" and wrote gunsmithing articles for American Rifleman. Mark de Haas, Frank's son, won the Leech Cup (1000 yds, iron sights) at Camp Perry in 1966, and was a sniper in Vietnam.

You are correct about the Remington being the weaker of the two actions in the vertical plane. I also posted this to the forum quite a while ago.

Re: Bill Ruger

I remember back in the '70s when the mini-14 came out. Bill said that he would ONLY sell it to military and law enforcement. The tone of his interview was to the effect that: "citizens have no business with military type rifles". Sales failed to materialize and he soon had to eat his words. That statement still sticks in my craw after 25 plus years. I don't think he is a real good friend of shooters.

That's all for now.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 01:24:28 (ZULU) 

Topic of Rugers raises It's Ugly head again. On my previous post about the 220 Swift I had, I will have to admit that it was probably one of the first production M77. This rifle was purchased in 1980-81. My memory leaves me occasionally - Gramps can relate. (ohi by the way, great to have you back again.) Hopefully quality production has improved over the past 17 years. That is why I advocate getting a custom produced rifle. You may pay a little more, but you know exactly what you have and a competent gunsmith will stand behind his work, especially when it comes to Match graded work. Wasn't it some guy named Gump that said, Life is like opening a Ruger M77 Rifle box, you never know whats inside - or something like that.

Thanks Rod! I certainly appreciate it.

Gotta go nnow, but I'll see all you studs at Storm Mountain. Except for peteR. He'll probably develop a bad case of candyass, get soft in the dick and not show up.

al

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Sittin' Here happy as a clam in the Merry of State of , Ohi-er, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 01:37:11 (ZULU) 

Pablito
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 01:47:47 (ZULU) 

I discussed the Ruger 'Palma' rifles with a couple of Palma and Hipower shooters, one of which assists in the running of the matches. I also talked to a couple of the people at the Whittington Center about the Rugers. The barrels were made by Green Mountain. The only place I have heard of them otherwise is for muzzle loading rifles. I was told the barrels were so shoddy that they would 'shoot out' while trying to break them in. Consequently, they weren't used in most cases. Add to the problem that they were delivered too late for load developement and breakin.

I have also been told by a barrel manufacturer in Raton, and others, that until recently, Ruger did NOT make their own barrels. I believe they ahve started doing so now. That MAY improve quality.

I've gotta lot of Rugers and I love'em, but they ain't target rifles...
Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 02:52:01 (ZULU) 

The sharpshooter in question was a very, very, recent one, if that helps explain. It was shot new out of the box maybe a month ago. This is the one that sells for $1,600-$1,800. By the way, this guy is a nut for the pre 64 action, and, knows his guns...but, so much of that stuff is personal taste. I have had good luck with many different guns, from the 700P, to the 70, to even a couple of Ruuuugers that get bashed here. I do not match shoot though, and I think that makes a real difference. Most of animal shooting is fine if you can put it within the paper-plate sized sweet spot at 500 meters. Target shooting shows imperfections in technique and equipment very quickly. Frankly, this 3/8's / or 1/4 MOA is something that I do not shoot enough to take advantage of...my feeling is many are in the same boat. *I* cannot consistently get it there...I don' blame the gun:)

I have often wondered what the guns guys like Carlos killed with shot, consistently. The buddy I referred to on the Winchester was there, as a number of you were, and tells me that sub MOA stuff was a wet dream...not because of the shooter, but because of the elements and the guns. If anyone has ever talked to Carlos about this, I would really like to hear what he has said regarding [accuracy in 'nam].

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 03:09:29 (ZULU) 

Early on, Carlos used a Winchester M70 target in .30-06, with an 8x Unertl, later on he used a M40 (Rem .308 Varmint) with a 3x9 Redfield.
You don't need sub moa for large varmints.
Pablito
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 03:41:47 (ZULU) 

Thank you for your response. I have written Remington a couple of e-mails to verify the 1:9 twist of the PSS 700 Remington. I hope to hear from them if they are not to busy in Daytona with NASCAR racing.I my self have many Ruger guns and they all shoot well except for a couple of them. The 10/22 is a tack driver the Mini 14 & 30 are a joke 3 inches a 100 if I am lucky and I also have a MK 77/22 mag with the heavy barrel it is a very accurate gun for a .22 mag and will shoot sub 1 MOA at 100 yards but is very ammo sensitive any bullet weight change in grains will affect point of impact by as much as 8" inches at 100 yards verticle and horizontal not good. I just picked up a M 77 MK II in .270 and will see how is shoots against my Remington 700 ADL Synthetic in 30-06 the Remington with the medium barrel will put 150 grain bullets in sub 1 MOA all day long every day at 100 yards. I tested my Remington with 3 shot groups 5 times in a row for an average. Overall the triggers on the Rugers are good except the mini 14 & 30 are junk. I am looking forward to getting a model 70 varmit in .223 in the near future to keep the coyote population down in my hunting area. I hope the quality controll on my new Ruger .270 is up to snuff and if it does not shoot as well as my Remingtom I will be selling it.
LEE <ke4lbh@uswest.net>
Woodbury, MN, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 04:43:00 (ZULU) 

Gee, who could that be? In a place as highly populated as Raton, and with so many custom barrel makers located there, the possibilities seem endless.... ;^)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 05:25:26 (ZULU) 

Ruger´s: I had the chance to play with one extensively during a Ruger,Leupold,PMC,MTM sponsored event in Malta Montana in 91´, was a varmint mod. in .22-250 and I shot over 2500 rounds through it without giving it any attention. we even cooled the barrels in an ice chest between p dog town´s. never shot it on paper, but on the p dogs it was good out to and little beyond 300 meters shooting from a montero with the rifle rested on a piece of radiator hose over the rolled down window. So I think it would make a sniper rifle as well.If I had my choice though I would stick with a 700 or better.

SHOT: Kimber known for 1911 style pistols has enlisted a freelance firearms designer and started their new line of rifles off with a real nice .22. Mauser style extracor/controlled feeding, a caming bolt that sets the bullet in the rifleing, and a pre 64 type winchester safety. They will follow up with a larger caliber, so this may very well be a new gun on the block in the future for our considerations.

M14/M305: I looked at my personal "slam fire" and here is what happend. I have a NM TRW bolt in a Norinco M305, I shot realoads that were made for and previously shot out of my G-3, the local hunting clubs range I shoot at does not allow magazines, or slings,(go figure) to be used.
My conclusion: headspace is really on the tight side after lapping the bolt in, the realoads even though full sized still had the H&K flutes on them and may not have seated all the way in the chamber, I used thin CCI Bench rest primers in tight PMC brass pockets that were seated real flat, and I had to load the round into the chamber and then close the bolt onto it which causes a higher bolt speed forward that if it would feed a round out of the mag. BAM, Slammfire ! Clearly not the Guns fault, but operator failure. The only damage that I found so far is a small deformation in the OP rod cam were the bolts giudewheel runs. I´ll take her to the range again and fire some factory FMJ out of a Magazine to see if the little deburring I did solved the problem.

The straight wall, no neck .308 case is in a special glass case I reserved for little reminders. This case also includes a 1" truck wheel nut and bolt that I stripped. It was stamped L for left hand thread, but in the heat of battle, what do I know.

Anyone have a BC and optimal vel. for a 173 Gn M118 Bullet ?

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 08:50:34 (ZULU) 

You already may know this, but others may not. Inside the receiver there is a bridge with a narrow slot cut in it. The purpose of this bridge is to slow down most of the forward velocity of the firing pin and to ensure that it would not protrude beyond the bolt-face until the locking lugs are fully engaged. In many receivers the slot is too wide and out of spec. Something to think about. I haven't shot my M1A for about 10 years, so I'm not up on the all the latest dope; just telling you what I read.

Springfield Armory and the early Smith Enterprises are receivers who most closely follow the original military specs as to metallurgy and tolerancing.

These rifles will lightly dimple the primers, and that is normal. Why don't you try to recreate the event by chambering primed cases (perhaps a 100 or so.)? Do all that you can to encourage a primer to fire. Use light oil, increase operating rod velocity, etc. At least it will restore some confidence that it will not happen again soon. I would not lightly explain away the event by combining several reasons as to the cause (i.e. thin primers and tight headspace and…… etc.) This combination of circumstances "could" have combined to cause a real slam-fire, but I wouldn't bet money on it. High primers come to mind as a likely suspect since your locking lugs were not even partially locked. The bolt-face may have been your firing pin if you know what I mean.

I normally put the cartridges in their boxes bullet end down. This way I can visually and manually test for primer depth uniformity. Oh yes,…..here is another reason, and one not easy to forget. At a high power 600 yd. match many years ago a cartridge failed to ignite. Upon extracting (my reload) it I saw that it was without a primer. At that moment I felt small enough to crawl down a mouse hole. A most humbling experience. Vowed to always stand cartridges primer up when going to a match.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 12:28:25 (ZULU) 

Torsten: Thanks for the 50 cal, it's smoooooooth! Is the Jell-o and scotch working?

Since everyone is off on the Ruger "thing" I thought I'd ask another silly assed question and see what happens. Does anyone know where to get a "kill flash" for an ART II scope and M-22 binocs???? A free bowl of lime Jell-o to the first one that answers correctly, (scotch included)!

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 13:16:18 (ZULU) 

178 gr Hornady National Match (Stock # 30631) Sir!

Thank You?

Jeff A.

Thank you too, SIR!

Chao!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-GAWD!, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 14:43:48 (ZULU) 

re: standing you rounds primer-side-up. I've thought of this, but was afraid that with a small amount of encouragement (like the vibration of driving to the range) that the weight of the round would cause the bullet to seat deeper into the case. A sort of reverse kinetic bullet puller.

I take it that you have not found this to be a problem?

Semper Fi
André
Andre Peterson <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 15:06:36 (ZULU) 

I have very small experience with them and have not been real impressed with their bolt guns for accuracy. But like every brand on the market, EVERY single one, their performance seems to be pretty subjective and individualistic. I hope to end the topic with this: Like others, Ruger rifles have the potential to shoot well. But by their design (Bedding, barrels, blah blah blah) they have been less accepted in the precision shooting community than other rifles. A "why fight the bedding when brand X is already squared away" mentality exists. Does this make a Ruger owner stupid? No, and I think that is where this subject has gained its Legs. Everyone seems a little defensive on both sides of the topic.

For CONSISTENT precision shooting and sniping, the ruger isn't top choice. So what? As a civilian you can still use one effectively for your purposes.

You can only afford ONE rifle in your life? It has to do it all? Then don't buy the Ruger. You have options aplenty.

The reason we don't talk about Ruger possitively here is because the above topics (precision shooting...) rule #1 on this site. If this were Hunting Country, Ruger might be bandied about a lot in a positive light. It works for fine that endeavor and the ranges involved. If you have one that meets your standard, what ever that may be, rejoice. If you hate them, try not to bust on those that like them. They may not have the same experience as you or even share the same need/standard.

I think it can be obviously stated with out too much argument that no police or military force, upon doing serious homework, would make an M77 in any configuration a first choice for their duty rifle. There are other alternatives that are ODDs-on a better capitol risk. Is this bashing? I do not think so. It still has it's place.

But don't get me on the Mini-14 or you WILL see some bashing! ;-)
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 18:01:03 (ZULU) 

I heard of "dropped reticle" Redfield problems in SEA, at the time the cause was thought to be not covering the objective and allowing the sun to shine in and heat up the reticle causing it to release. I really don't know if that really ended up being the true cause. The (old/my age) Marine shooters will know.

Dave in Ok
Dave Martin <theopair@yahoo.com>
Ok, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 19:53:04 (ZULU) 

But at a lower level, with a $250 IR scope, any sniper in a ghille suit is cold meat, no matter how good it looks in when you put it on.
I don't mean to beat up on the much loved Ghille suit, particularly since some on this site, spend their winter nights re-doing them, but the Scotts are still laughing.

The best Ghille suit is made of the local vegetation tied over a light cotton cover, just like the guys in WW2 used.

"What to do if caught out in the open by an overhead threat?"
If you can't shoot the pilot, raise your hands and pray! Most of the tactical types on this site are LE/Military, active or retired, and serious civilian tactical competitors... The military types have their own solutions (sholder launched), but for the rest of us, being caught in the open by such an advanced opponent, is very unlikely...
... except for my ex-wife.

Pablito
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 19:58:56 (ZULU) 

First, I would like to thank everyone who responded to my questions about which rifle to buy. I have tried to personally respond to as many people as possible, my apologies to anyone who I may have missed.

Several people have advised me to go with a higher end rifle than a Sako 75 or stock Remington 700 if I am serious about accuracy. I may have to wait a bit longer to make the purchase if I do that, but I agree that I will probably be happier with the results in the long run.

I found a Web page of a gun shop based in California called The Sniper Store (http://www.sniper-store.com/index.htm). They carry lots of really nice firearms, but the AWC Technologies rifles seem to be the best choice in the $2000 price range, which is the most I can possibly spend on the rifle itself. The only alternative to an AWC Tech rifle in that price range (that they carry) is the Steyr SSG or the Winchester Model 70 "Sharpshooter II". What other rifles in that price range should I be considering? Are there any other similar Web pages I should be checking out?

Does anyone here have any familiarity with AWC Technologies' firearms? I think they are all built on a tuned Remington 700 action. From what I've read, I would probably choose the M-92 "Elite" or the M-93 "Landlord" in .308. The M-40A2 "Leatherneck", a clone of the USMC sniper rifle, seems like a good choice also.

By the way, how does one go about buying a rifle mail order from an out of state gun shop these days? Can I just have them send it to a local gun shop and pick it up there?

Thanks!!!

Jim S. <sorcerer@cport.com>
, WA, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 20:53:29 (ZULU) 

Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 21:25:41 (ZULU) 

Jim: Buying by mail is not a problem. Most places will simply take your money, and ship to a FFL or you give your money to the FFL, he sends it to the maker, and the gun gets shipped to FFL and then transferred to you.

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 21:27:58 (ZULU) 

Over the past month or so of reading and researching high-accuracy, long-range rifles I have had an idea for what could possibly be a useful field tool. Since everyone here obviously has some interest and familiarity with computers, this seems to be a natural place to discuss it.

What I had in mind was writing a program for a handheld computer like the 3Com Palm Pilot where the shooter could enter in the different variables involved in making a shot and get back the necessary corrections. For those who aren't familiar with the Palm Pilot, it is about 4.5"x3.5" and weighs a few ounces. Input is accomplished with by using a stylus (or a fingertip if necessary) on a LCD touchscreen. It runs for at least 12 hours, usually more, on a pair of AAA batteries and has a very useful backlight built in. Various cases are available for the Pilot... the one I use is a titanium hard case that fits in a nylon belt case. I've also seen a case that can strap on to the back of an arm and one that's similar to a shoulder holster. The Pilot itself is dark grey plastic but it would be possible to paint it camo if it was really necessary, same with the cases. It is pretty rugged but not indestructible. The biggest thing I'd worry about in the field is getting water inside it; the simplest way I can think of to fix that is simply to seal it inside a ZipLock bag.

The program could have the ballistic tables for any number of calibers and loads built in and could have a way to input new data. I would have to seriously think about which variables to cover, but zero distance, range, wind, elevation, and target movement would be the minimum. Other things like temperature and barrel length would be included too but would probably have to be on a secondary screen because of limited space on the main screen. The output would be in either MOA, 1/4 MOA clicks, and/or inches depending on how the user set the preferences. I would definitely try to make the program as customizable as possible.

I'd love to hear any suggestions, criticism, or ideas relating to this. If such a program was available as shareware, would you use it? If I do pursue this idea and get something written, I'd gladly provide free copies for beta testing to the Sniper Country crowd. Owning a Pilot wouldn't be necessary to test it... there is a Pilot emulator available for the PC that will run the program.

Thanks!!!

Jim S. <sorcerer@cport.com>
, WA, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 21:43:57 (ZULU) 

For myself and I suspect a lot of others here would also want it to take bullet info and muzzle velocity and the computer do the ballistics from there.

Dave in Ok
Dave Martin <theopair@yahoo.com>
Ok, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 22:01:28 (ZULU) 

You where right about the Remington .223 700P it has a faster 1:9 twist for heaver bullets. Remington sent me a very nice E-mail telling me about the tactical weapons systems they sell and I will forward to to anyone who wants a copy. Here are some part numbers from the E-mail.

model 700P .223 Rem order no. 5714
model 700P DM .308 Win order no. 5715
model 700P DM .300 Win Mag order no. 5717
model 700P DM LTR .308 Win order no. 5713
model 700P DM TWS .308 Win order no. 5712

The TWS system comes with a Leoupold 3.5 x 10 scope Duplex reticle flip open lens covers. A Harris bi-pod, a Michaels 1" quick adjust sling with swivels, a rugged Pelican hard case to carry the gun.

The 700P DM LTR has a detachable magazine slimmed down stock, fluted 20" barrel.

They where also kind enough to leave a phone number to call if any one else has questions. 1-800-243-9700 M-F 9am-5pm EST

So I guess now all have to do now is choose a between the Winchester & the Remington now. Thanks for all your help.
Lee <ke4lbh@uswest.net>
People Repubilc of Minnesota, USA - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 22:03:52 (ZULU) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, Ca, USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 00:29:12 (ZULU) 

Bruce
bruce <Delta109@aol.com>
blacksburg, SC, USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 00:39:39 (ZULU) 

I have hunted quite a bit with both. Either one, if you practice with it, will provide all the accuracy you will need to hunt most of the large US game. 06 will give a step up in range, but if you are actually hunting, and working for the right shot, distance won't be a problem either way. If you can't shoot them before buying, just know that many hides have been surrendered to both calibers:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 01:04:29 (ZULU) 

Pablito:

Just lettin' ya know that no rifle (30 cal and under), whether it is a Winchester production Sharpshooter, or a rebarrel, or one of our own H-S rifles leave the shop without shooting at least a .5 MOA group, so when Win. tells you it was a mistake for going with H-S, I think it is more about money or the politics of the contract. That is all I can say about that except that I guarantee it was not about the quality of the rifles.

bye ladies

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 01:12:38 (ZULU) 

The heart of Remington law enforcement rifles is the legendary Model 700
action. This is the same attain that is at the core of the advanced M-24
Sniper Weapon System we built for the U.S. Army. It's also what makes our
handbuilt Model 40-XB rifles so accurate and rock-solid dependable.

The foundation of the Model 700 action is its unique bolt design. The bolt
face, barrel, and receiver surround and support the cartridge head with
three overlapping rings of solid steel. The Model 700 receiver is machined
from a solid block of ordnance-grade steel, then drilled and tapped for
scope mounts. All of our standard Model 700 Police rifles have heavy,
free-floating 26" barrels crowned at the muzzle for unparalleled accuracy
and stability. The Model 700P LTR features a fluted 20" barrel and is 1
1/2lbs. lighter than the standard 26" version. In the .223 Remington
chambering, the twist has been changed from 1 in 12" to 1 in 9" in order to
maximize the ballistic stability of heavier bullets. Model 700s chambered
for the .223 Remington have five-shot capacities and hinged floor plates.
Guns in .308 Win. and .300 Win. Mag. calibers are now equipped with a
quick-change, four shot detachable magazine.

Both the standard Model 700P and the Tactical Weapon System feature
composite stocks reinforced with DuPont Kevlar and fiberglass. They'll stay
dimensionally stable in any weather and under the worst tactical situations.
The stock is laid up around an aircraft-grade aluminum bedding block that
runs the full length of the receiver. It has a textured, black,
non-reflective finish and comes with sling swivel studs.

The TWS package includes a Leupold Vari-X III (3.5 x 10) scope with a Duplex
reticle and flip-open lens covers. A Harris bi-pod, a Michaels 1"
Quick-Adjust sling with swivels, a rugged Pelican hard case, and samples of
Remington gun care products to round out the system. It's only available in
.308 Win./26" barrel.

The new Model 700P detachable box magazine allows greater speed and ease
when loading and unloading your rifle. It also allows the carrying of a
variety of rounds to adapt to any tactical situation. the detachable
magazine feature is available in .308 Win. and .300 Win. Mag. caliber
offerings All stainless steel box construction assures durability and
weather resistance.

The Model 700P DM LTR (Light Tactical Rifle), chambered for .308 Win.,
features a detachable magazine and slimmed down stock. The flutes in the
20" LTR not only assist in weight reduction and heat dissipation, but are
engineered to enhance barrel rigidity for pinpoint accuracy.

Model 700P .223 Rem Order No. 5714
Model 700P DM .308 Win Order No. 5715
Model 700P DM .300 Win Mag Order No. 5717
Model 700P DM LTR .308 Win Order No. 5713
Model 700P DM TWS .308 Win Order No. 5712

> We hope that this information will be helpful to you. If we can be of
> further assistance, please contact us at 1-800-243-9700, M-F, 9am-5pm EST.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ----------
>
> Subject: Rifle Twist?
>
> I am looking for a faster twist riffling in a .223 caliber. Your
> brochure says a 1:12 twist for the model 700 VS. I was told on another
> web site that you offer a PSS 700 in a faster 1:9 twist is this true?
> I am looking to shoot heavy bullets and need a faster twist. The only
> other manufacturer is Winchester they offer a heavy barrel varmint gun
> with a faster 1:9 twist rate. I love my Remingtons and would like to
> stay with your company. Please advise if there is any info on this
> gun. Thank you.
>
> Lee Erickson
>

Lee <ke4lbh@uswest.net>
Peoples Republic of Minnesota, USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 01:35:12 (ZULU) 

Sorry, JR, for the misunderstanding... not my intention.

Pablito
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 02:00:21 (ZULU) 

Since I was the one to bring up the topic, I should follow through with more info rather than just let it hang. The slot width of my early Springfield Armory M1A (mid to late 1970s 4 digit) measures .185" or 4.69 mm wide. This should be correct. Somewhere in this house is a M14/M1A receiver blueprint, but I can't lay my hands on it now. That's normal.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 03:31:22 (ZULU) 

Keith Camardo <BATCAM1>
BEAV, OR, USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 06:53:57 (ZULU) 

1) concerning forged vs. billet machined vs. cast;
if all else is equal (steel alloy choice, alloy purity,
reciever dimensions, heat treatment, etc) then forging,
if done right, has a strength and possibly a stiffness
advantage. if designed and implemented properly, the
anisotropy obtained via forging can substantially improve
performance. however, for consumer-grade stuff, the
aforementioned issues loom larger than forging vs. whatever.
people frequently get worked up over academic issues
when there are more important things to worry about
(like did that steel batch get contaminated with
somebodies lunch).

2) with a proper heat treatment process, any existing
stresses in the steel due to forging and/or machining
should be minimized by an annealling period before
the hardening cycle. and the casting process causes
stresses as well; due to uneven cooling, differing
temperatures result in differing thermal stresses in the
steel as it cools. again, annealing may be needed.
the main drive gears for large ships require anywhere
from weeks to months to cool when they are cast; otherwise,
the thermal stresses will crack them. just imagine the
stresses required to crack 1 or 2 tons of steel!

3) good performance requires a good design, good materials,
good processes, good tooling, and good workmanship. Murphy
always finds the weak link...

Ivanhoe <ivanhoe@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 07:43:39 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 11:45:35 (ZULU) 

On first view as a "tradionalist" I thought the Sharpshooter was plug ugly and the stock felt kinda ungainly offhand. When I did the T&E on it,(Naturally, during the onset of a blizzard) and it shot like a house on fire and I very quickly changed my mind! But the price, WHEW! If ya like model 70's its the rifle.
But my feelings are pretty well set on the Remington 700 Police as the most versatile out of the box rifle for the price, that may change but I doubt it.

Ruger Palma rifle, NOW THERE IS AN OXYMORON! A picture in The Rifleman makes it good huh? Been there, handled that, NOT!
Folks its gotta be politika, like the Olympics. Remember the skater-chick, doped up on painkillers, who took a dive, yet still won the Gold??? versus a buncha others who gave flawless performances. Sorry for the tangental shift but the paralellism (bygawd spelling) is there I believe.

Al. O, (Fly Boyz to Men)
I'll be in touch to "Bury that Hatchet", By-Gawd style ;-)

Gooch,
Put down the damn Crayons and post!

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 13:19:53 (ZULU) 

RE: Moly. First I'll admit that I do not use it myself. You might want to read the Kevin Thomas article in the Jan. 99 Precision Shooting. If you don't subscribe, then you should (as a handloader into long ranged shooting accuracy).

In a word, Kevin arrives at the conclusion that Moly does little real good other than maybe making cleaning easier. So unless there is some good reason that you would WANT to fire 300 rounds between cleanings, all the time and trouble of moly coating essentially comes doen to saving you a few minutes in cleaning time. The article is much more specific, but that's the gist, I think. Note that the author works for Sierra and apparently conducted his tests while Sierra was developing their new Moly bullets.

I think the lack of definative evidence on the subject (some people say it increases accuracy, some say it does not. Some people say it extends bbl life, some say it does not), should be enough to give pause. You might find that the many dollars and hours spent moly coating would be better spent at the range shooting.

Remember, just because Sierra (et al) sells it, does not mean that it actually DOES anything meaningful. My mind is open on moly, but I have zero real evidence that it does anything, and all of the comparison tests that I've seen have not shown any advantage other than easier cleaning.

The jury's still out, but I'd hold my money for now. (if you do the math, you might find that all the money and special gear for moly coating might be greater than the cost of a new bbl every 3000 rounds?)
Andre Peterson <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 15:47:53 (ZULU) 

Andre,
I haven't read the article but Russ e.mailed me and is going to send it out. What you said is kind of the conclusion that I have come to, I need to know if there is any real big advantage to it or not. I am set up to use Danzac which is a lot easier to apply than the moly but I dont want to hassel with it if its not going to be a bigger help than cleaning.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 16:59:47 (ZULU) 

If you are ordering both a hat and a shirt together, you do NOT need to provide extra shipping on both. The total is still $3.50 for a total of 4 items or less. There has been some confusion over this. Sorry if I made it unclear. Also, the final shirt color at this time is Black with a white graphic. I may do colors in the future depending on demand, but for now I am following the Henry Ford method. It comes in black, basic black. Thanks all!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 17:14:20 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 17:39:57 (ZULU) 

PAT: Don't bother with moly! I came to this conclusion well before reading Kevin's article. If you can get a copy of his piece, he sums it all up way better than I can. Here is what I found personally. Keep in mind that all of this is presented in view of this sites relevance to sniping - not so much target shooting, although it applies too. Testing is subjective to my personal rifle. Yours WILL be different!!!

Velocity. No matter what I tried, I could not match accuracy to velocity. In other words, if my best uncoated round shot .5" five shot groups at 2650 fps, the moly rounds could only shoot this group at 2430 fps. As I tried to increase the charge to get the velocity back, accuracy degraded. I never could match that 2650/.5" group with moly, no matter what the charge. Then of course there is consistency of velocity. Moly is claimed to provide this. Nope. Not in my reality. It was no more and SOMETIMES less consistent than uncoated. We'll call that indictment ONE.

Increase in accuracy with moly? Not at the ranges I tried. There was no difference noticeable. Period. I shot very good groups with and with out moly. But moly was more a hassle than cleaning the rifle - which I do anyway, regardless of coatings. For all the hype, moly did not seem to help accuracy what so ever. Will it at long range? Beats me. I couldn’t get enough ACCURATE velocity to find out. Indictment Two.

Cold Barrel Shot. Forget it. With moly I could never see a consistent CBS on a clean rifle. It took about 10 rounds to get back on track. This so-called seasoning is totally unacceptable. The groups would be fine mind you, but they would not be where I wanted them! When I first started testing this particular rifle with uncoated rounds, the groups were always on zero. Indictment Three.

Barrel Heat. Here is one that seems for real. I could shoot more with less heat build up. I’ll give Moly a go on that one. The down side to that is (I think) that all that missing friction only served to lower my velocity. Also, as this rifle exhibited little tendency to open up with uncoated rounds, any advantage the cooler barrel would provide over the long run seems meaningless. Indictment 3.5.

Getting on target: At long ranges you might waste a few round finding your zero - especially from a clean bore. Ok (barely) for High Power, but not for tactical shooting (games or otherwise) where you might only get one shot. If you can not place that first round consistently where you expect it to go, you have a big NO GO. Indictment Four.

Cleaning. To me, this has been a non-issue. If you have a good bore, broken in properly, you should not be having major problems with cleaning anyway! I have fired well over 200 rounds in a day with uncoated bullets just to see what would happen and have seen NO difference with moly in terms of retained accuracy. Also with moly you might clean less, but you are still getting a build up in the barrel even if it is not copper. Worse, if you allow yourself to become habituated in NOT cleaning the rifle, you will miss things that might be important. Indictment Five.

Barrel longevity: Read Kevin’s article. On his extensive tests, there was NO appreciable increase in barrel life. Period. This guy ought to know. He shoots a lot more than any of us in a controlled lab environment. I can not attest to whether the erosion process is slowed down with moly, but it would seem that once you get to that magic 2500 to 3000 rounds, the barrel goes south regardless of coatings. So why Bother? Indictment Six.

Moly is a hassle. It adds unnecessary steps to your reloading process and requires more equipment. Expensive equipement. Great for the retailer, but not so good for you. Just shoot the bullets clean, save the Moly start-up fees and shoot enough that the bore gets broken in the right way. Cleaning gets easier as you go. Short cuts and miracle compounds are attractive to us shooters. We love gadgets, gizmos, and hype. But sometimes you just have to stand back and say "what the F**K OVER?" I know there are guys aplenty who will swear by moly. Heck, I was even willing to do so up to a point, but for the kind of shooting you want to do HERE, on SC, it just ain’t worth it. This ain’t Bench Rest Country with sighters unlimited. Or Coyote Country where is simply doesn’t matter. For true consistency, stick with uncoated. One note to think about. You saw moly touted a lot in 1997 and 1998 in Precision Shooting Magazine. Well kiddies, think on this: Who is a major advertiser in that magazine? Do I need to spell it out?

I feel you’d be better served getting a good bore polish by a custom smith than using moly. I got more from the Accumax polish process than I ever did from moly.

Let the ARGUMENTS begin!!! ;-)

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 18:30:01 (ZULU) 

Marius: Just noticed that Colt (http://www.colt.com/) isn't on the link page...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 18:38:28 (ZULU) 

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 20:16:21 (ZULU) 

Molly you are completely right about. Bottom line is works great for Competition not good for sniper use. I posted a long one about it yesterday but where it is I don't know. So I will keep it short this time. Probably a Ruger conspiracy. LOL

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif., USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 21:24:26 (ZULU) 

Also I would like to know the diamater of the barrel on the Winchester Laredo rifle.
Thanks
Truman H. <nailerbob@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 12, 1999 at 23:03:56 (ZULU) 

Whoever was asking about 173's and data email me(I'm lazy and not going to scroll down again). LAST, could it be that the McMillan stocks are just the current "flavor"??? I, personally, don't care for synthetics....but after talking to Ms Thompson of H-S at the SHOT show and seeing the display piece of what goes into a H-S stock made me a believer....time will tell, can always modify the palm swell to suit me and same for the cheek weld area, ditto for adding a "Kick-eeze" recoil pad. Not so much for recoil but for added length, then again shooting 5 different loads w/20 rounds per load does wear on you after awhile !!!! Sure wish Rem would make a laminate similar to Rugers !
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Sweet Home, ALABAMA, USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 00:21:57 (ZULU) 

o It's no added trouble, I buy the bullets pre-coated from Berger.

o I've developed a 168gn load that can stay supersonic at 1K yards, something I haven't been able to do with non-coated bullets so far.

o I have a SR-25 semi-auto with a 20rd capacity, so something that can cut barrel heating and allow me to rapid-fire without ruining the accuracy is a big plus. (Why else would I put up with the disadvantages of a gas gun?)

o Cold-barrel shots haven't been a problem since I went to Berger's recommended cleaning method using JB and Kroil. To Scott: Are you using a copper-solvent cleaner with molly? That *did* move my cold barrel shots as you described.

The majority of guys in our match are using molly-coated, but I admit that it could just be a matter of everybody reinforcing each other's popular misconceptions.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 00:38:07 (ZULU) 

ABOUT MOLY COATING

I have not taken the time to try it myself. But I Did call the Tech Folks at Sierra. The person I talked to told me. That they did not see any benefit in moly coating at least not in a mach barrel.
He did say that it did show some improvemnt. In barrels with bad
bores. But most of the time it showed a loss in accuracy.
He then told me the reason for Sierra selling Moly-coated bullets.
Is that there is a good market for them and that is the only reason.
*****BUT PLEASE DO NOT THINK I AM KNOCKING MOLY BULLETS**********
like I said before I have not taken the time to find out
for myself.( This is gust what I was told by one of Sierra's
Tech Guys. )

S.Barrier <Sbarr25@aol.com>
Chandler, Okla., USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 01:37:52 (ZULU) 

Bach,
I have a few and am very happy with them. Others on the AR-list generally have good things to report on them. Prices are reasonable too, running about 12.00 or so.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 02:55:04 (ZULU) 

As an aside, has anyone heard of this theory, unproven but interesting? With each sucessive shot moly lays a new coat over the fouling that does stay in the bore, thereby trapping the crud in between layers. I am NOT saying this is so, but I have read about it. Comments?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 04:47:49 (ZULU) 

When I refer to hassle factor I mean it. Sure, it ain't all THAT hard to do, but it is an added step that in my experience has shown little value FOR THE COST of start up. Even the simple BBs in a kids tumbler method cost you more than plain outta the box uncoated. So why would I want to keep doing it? Because someone promised me it will do wonders? I had hoped it would too. It just didn't work out that way. Not for a tactical rifle anyway. Varmint shooting? I might still keep at it just to play. Not sure yet. Maybe this is a little purist on my part. Kind of a tactical rifles should use factory match ammo and hunting rigs can shoot for the moon with pie in the sky type thing.

If Moly takes over competition, so be it. But this perpetual "jump on the band wagon" attitude makes little sense to me. I do not care who uses it if it doesn't work for me personally. I can not recommend it. You on the other hand can. Feel free. People get too wrapped up in their ideas where shooting is concerned. They take it personal. Leupold scopes are a good example. Everyone raves about them but forgets to mention some really crappy issues that come up now and then. Why? It goes against the accepted norm. Right now, Moly is the accepted norm. Saying negative things about it gets people worked up and that makes no sense to me either. Unless you got stock in NECO or Dow Corning, it just shouldn’t matter all that much!

As far as Sierra goes...to use your words, well, DUH...they'd be dumb not to sell it as everyone thinks it is the next best thing to a night in the sack with Paulina Porizkova. They are in a competitive business and would be foolish not to offer it as every one of their competitors does also. Note though that every one of them still offers uncoated. If moly was all it was cracked up to be there'd be no reason to stick with the traditional uncoated jacket at all. They'd go the way of the dinosaur. Until there is unequivocal proof to the contrary, uncoated is here to stay.

BR? Heck, those folks will be shooting tiny little holes no matter what they use. In short, moly might work, or it might not. It all depends on a lot of variables. Based on that ambiguity, when someone asks what I think of it I can not stand tall and say BY ALL MEANS, do it! All I can say is try it and see if it works for you. If you got something that works now and are limited on experimentation time, don’t bother with it.

If you have good luck with it, stick with it. But don't expect everyone to see the light. We can not please every one all the time here. Half the fun of this site is the debate that goes on. Still, lets not take the moly issue to a new level. It has been beat to death and like in the real world, there is little to show for it beyond anecdotal evidence. My best and last advice on it is this: Don’t expect miracles just cause some one says it is so. Test it out for yourselves. If you ain’t a cop doing this for real, use it to your hearts content. It just doesn’t matter.

Jeeze I wish I could have shortened that up. What a waste of space! Sorry all.

scott <long winded tonight.>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 05:10:13 (ZULU) 

Anyway, I still clean my rifles like I always have...may not take as long as it once did....some days I seem to be shooting a laser and other days I could be shooting a blunderbuss !! Maybe its the JERK behind the trigger ??!! The current rifle has almost 500 rounds thru it...all moly. The Ruger with Douglas barrel has over 3,000 + and not all moly. Now they are but in the beginning I shot straight Sierra 168's. last year I loaded over 4,000 rounds, not all for me. One shooter swears by the moly, previously he shot only Fed Match factory and then reloaded it ONCE !!!! He could afford that, I can't. Now he only shoots moly.

Finish this up, quick. From all the data I can find, there isn't much difference in powder loads between 168's and 175's, some , but not alot. SOOOOoooo... anyone pull Factory 168's and then reload moly 175's with the factory powder ???? This was brought up in a discussion a few days ago, got my own ideas but want some other opinions !!!
OUT HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Home of 2nd secession, Just Kidding , USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 06:44:13 (ZULU) 

Interested in information and experiences on the Steyr SSG products, good or bad. I am looking at a possible purchase, gun shop likes it a lot, but guns are such a personal preference. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Nort
Nort <Nort246@aol.com>
San Antonio, TX, USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 07:20:49 (ZULU) 

Hey Russ: My new IM is Gramps248, looking for you!!!!

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 14:06:36 (ZULU) 

Longline,
I'm sure you already know some of this stuff, but it may be new to some people.

When considering bullet quality, weight is supposed to be one of the least important elements. Jacket concentricity, roundness, base squareness, ogival length are the most important accuracy elements. However, these things are darn hard to check. Jacket concentricity can be checked with the ICC (Internal Concentricity Checker) which has been around since the early 1980s or so. P.S. or T.S. just had an article on it lately. Using this tool one can sort bullets into groups according to their balance characteristics. A well balanced bullet is a good place to start.

It is easy to check for cartridge/bullet concentricity in loaded ammo. Sinclair, NECO, and others sell little Vee blocks with a dial indicator for this purpose. Essentially, it works like this. Lay the loaded cartridge into the Vee block and position the dial indicator stem out near the bullet tip, not all the way out, but within .125" (3.17mm) of it. Slowly revolve the cartridge and you will be shocked at how crooked they are. This certainly does nothing to enhance accuracy, and causes bullet balance and concentricity problems as the bullet is forced into the throat.

If you can not do anything about the loading process, you can mark each bullet with a magic marker for its "high" side. Orient these cartridges the same when entering them into the chamber (if possible). Tactical people will see problems right here (i.e. loaded magazine). None the less this is one way to sort loaded ammo to enhance it performance. I will not go out on a limb and say your very next group will be a lot better, but I will say that in a long string or several 10 shot groups that the effect will make itself present. Of course one must have a rifle that is put together correctly, before any meaningful testing can be done at all. One must eliminate as much "background noise" first. Wind, bench technique, barrel cleaning, rifle problems, etc. are all such noises that can cover up small improvements (or degradations) to accuracy. Sometimes zigs compensate for zags and confuse us. I'm sure you already know this. Definitive proof is hard to come by in rifle shooting. The best we can do is to stack the cards in our favor and hope for the best.

For long range match shooting I liked cartridges that showed no more than .005 (.127mm) or so runout. This is the total indicated runout (TIR), actual runout was .0025 (.063mm). After loading a batch of cartridges for a match, I would go through them and put the better rounds in the 600 yard box. The doglegs went into the offhand and 200 yard rapid fire box where they wouldn't cause any problems.

Once I got into a batch of out-of-balance 69 gr. Sierra bullets. This condition is caused by the lead core not being centered in relationship to the bullet's center of form. In an all day 600 yard match I was shooting very large hollow groups. I couldn't buy a 10 or X for love nor money. Nothing but 9s and 8s were shot all day long and the shots were high, low, left, and right. To those not familiar with the 600 yd. target the 9 ring is 18 inches in diameter. The hollowness of the groups was quite clear and two of the matches were shot with a 24X Leupold so that helped me in reaching my conclusion.

So you must test your bullets to be sure they are good (or bad). Those 173's have done a lot of good work over the years, both on and off the target range. Most service rifle shooters claimed they worked best in 4 groove barrels.

To rule out bullet inconsistencies, buy Bergers, Cauterucios, JLKs, etc.

That's all for now.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 14:26:34 (ZULU) 

Moly,
Its Yes/No, Black/White no gray semi sticky slick willy areas. It works or it don't. I have been playing with spray applied Moly since 1986 on everything from airgun pellets to our favorite little BTHP's.
My last field experiment at an airgun Field Target with a 5mm rifle (yep an oddball fer sure) netted a 56/56 score. Thats targets from 1/4" to 1 1/2" diameter out to 50 yards UKD-free style. Lost about 20 fps but grouped like a house on fire. Its the first cleaned course I know of in the U.S. Not bragging, just luck, the shooting gods looking over my shoulder and a well setup rig.
Tactical/Hipower rifle, Nope just one more thing to me to worry about while loading and cleaning. I think the key is consistency from CBS until the last round is fired without "seasoning or pampering".
Reality check, Your rifle needs to be able to make M.O.T. (Minute of Torso) past 300 yards and everything is fine.

What was it AL O. I babbled about a 12 inch circle or square?

I owe, I owe, Its Ofta work the Dude goes!

Chao

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
WINDY-WINDY-CITY, bY-GaWd, USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 15:52:47 (ZULU) 

Will...
I haven't pulled 168's and replaced them with 175's, but when working up loads, I load the same powder charge with both, and pressure signs show up at the same load... does this help?
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 16:01:34 (ZULU) 

First off try about 41.5 to 42.0 gr. of IMR or Hodgen 4895 power. This is a relatively mild load which also works great with 190 gr. Sierra's in bolt rifles. This was the load that was used in the military NM ammo (173 gr.) for many years.

Personally, I removed the stock whenever cleaning the rifle and have never had any problems. Never was a high master, but don't care either. What they want you to be careful of is scraping the vertical areas with the action "legs". If material is removed there, then one could get a little slop in the fore and aft movement of the action in the stock. My action didn't scrape anything. It rubbed a little, but that's all.

Old time shooters warned me of never putting any cleaning solvent or oil in the gas cylinder. Something about gumming everything up. Hmmm. This I just had to see. So I proceeded to clean the cylinder with solvent and lightly lube it and the piston with gun oil. Never found any gum and the rifle always functioned normally. It was just "butts" talk if you know what I mean. Well meaning people repeating what they had heard 20 years before. I sleep better knowing that my rifles are clean. I think it was Elmer Keith who said: "The sun never sets on a dirty gun".

All of the old articles on bedding the M14/M1A said that only the front receiver ring and a horseshoe shaped area at the rear were to be bedded on the top side of the stock. This looked hokey to me; having the middle section being strained by the trigger group. So I always put bedding in the center section too. This was in the early '80s. Rifle shot just fine. I must admit that my rifle was slightly hindered in that it didn't have a true heavy barrel. It had, and still has the medium weight SAK NM barrel.

I found the rifle not to be finicky and just used common sense with it. Wouldn't do anything different if I had to relive the time.

I did free float my light barrel, but then it had a very small sweet spot as far as accuracy goes. Bedded this way hotter loads always shot to a lower point of aim. If it had been a fat barrel then I would definitely have free floated it. Clamping the barrel to the stock is not a good thing. It looks bad, sounds bad, and is bad. Consider a 1000 yd prone rifle of mine. The forearm of the McMillan prone stock is pulled down .035" (.889mm) when I am in position. Would I want to hook the stock to the barrel?

I'm sure others will have equally valid opposite opinions. My shaky opinions are base on a sample of one rifle. So take that into consideration.

Guess I got a little carried away here.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 16:44:35 (ZULU) 

OK guys we've been over, under, around and through this subject but NOBODY has come right out and gotten down to the point! What loads are you'all using in bolt guns for the 175 gr Match King?? I've gotten my first box and don't want to "waste" them as I don't think my local shop got more than the one box for me! I've consulted Sierra for use of N140 but they tell me they have no data on this combination. The VV pamphlet manual says a MAX of 41.4 @ 2400 something, that seems aweful slow, so where do I go from here! What I have on hand is N140, AA2520 and H380. OK lets play folks and remember $$$$ IS a consideration!! I MIGHT consent to trying Varget although my past experience with Varget was not good. OK, OK, OK it was in my Savage rifles (two different guns in two different calibers even) they didn't like Varget in any way shape or form but this will be in the 700 VS. Help me out here!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 21:21:53 (ZULU) 

You asked for feedback on experience with Steyr products. You did not however say what the end use of the weapon would be but I will give my input based on my use.

I use a Steyr SSG 69 PII .308 with dual triggers, Harris bipod, Leopold MKIV M1 10X. I shoot non-competition target and it is my primary large animal hunting weapon. I am able to achieve .5 MOA out to 400 YDS. but have not shoot targets further than this. I am completely confident that 1 MOA results can be achieved out to 600 yds. As far as hunting I chose this weapon because I felt that as a responsible and ethical hunter I should use the best and most accurate weapon that I could afford. I have taken a number of game animals with it and have always had one shot results. I have also shot the PI version and it performed similarly. I have not had a chance to try the Scout version but the reviews I have read lead me to think it is a good performer as well. Hope this helps.

Tony
Tony Tull <atull@granbury.com>
Granbury, TX, USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 23:19:43 (ZULU) 

Best compliment I can pay the gun is it takes a beating and continues to function. Bad weather has not effected it while I have used it. Bad side? Cost.

Old Dog

PS I have owned other Steyr rifles, and I find them to be quite durable and accurate. All are priced above where more accurate rifles live though, in my opinion.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, February 13, 1999 at 23:46:18 (ZULU) 

Pablito,
Like you I have pulled bullets in Fed Match to see if I could figure out what they were using for powder then I talked to one of there instructors at a school and he said they spend countless hours and dollars trying to come up with the perfect "BLEND" of powder and they do not use a standard IMR or any other brand.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 01:04:56 (ZULU) 

Welcome back! But how dare you speak the name Varget in the same breath as Sav'age! AHHHHHHHHHHH!

Start at 43.0 gr. and work up, be careful with pressure if you use IMI or LC brass, I'm comfortable at 44.0 gr. Read back a week or so ago on MR.Bullet and Jeff A's posts.
OAL of between 2.800" and 2.825" seems to work well for me. The longer for my 700 Police DM and the shorter generic size rounds for other rifles.

Praise be to Varget!!!

home n' ofta work agin,

Yee-Hawww gotta love that 00:00 to 12:00 guys, or cry!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 01:19:58 (ZULU) 

On post concerning Steyr SSG....contact Autauga Arms and ask for Rusty. He had one or two and when I saw him shooting them, Shot mighty fine. One of the "old" green setups if I recall. Think the only reason he sold them was something to do with not being able to shoot past 800 due to rings or mounts. Not positive, it has been a year or two !!! Last I heard the Alabama State Troopers had issued the SSG to its TAC Teams !!

TO ALL: thanks for reponses about swapping bullets from factory loads. Will know ore after next match(20 Feb, Huskey "HARDROCK" Range).
OUT HERE

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
War Eagle Country !!, Alabama, USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 01:51:29 (ZULU) 

I believe Christensen Arms (www.christensenarms.com)
first introduced carbon fiber barrels with stainless
steel insert back in the 1994 or 1995 SHOT Show.
Remington may have bought rights to their technology.

Users have claim the barrel remains cooler and of course
lighter in weight. Carbon fiber is also more rigid and
unfortunately brittle than steel. I can't give a detailed
pro/con on the barrel, because the straightness, fragility
will be a function of how the carbon fiber is layered and
processed. You might want to contact Christensen Arms
directly.

Christensen Arms also make a $10,000 .50 BMG and a "Tactical"
rifle per their Website take a look folks.

Take care,

Lou S <spunkbubble@juno.com>
S. Fla., USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 02:41:50 (ZULU) 

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 04:34:25 (ZULU) 

Estes <estes@feist.com>
Flat- Land , Kansas, USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 04:40:38 (ZULU) 

ENOUGH.... someone asked MUCH earlier about defeating thermal detection. yes it can be done BUT you have to be in an enviroment conducive to beating the odds. Having 4 feet of snow won't hide you and it depends on if you are talking about intermittent or full time observation from an aerial platform. A space blanket isn't all you need...the stuff that goes on the sides of houses works but is a real pain to drag around. If your AO has lots of innerconnecting caves and mines , that would be ideal OR triple canopy vegetation can work but with the current thermal imaging systems available to SOME.....you get the picture. Long term hides will leave a thermal "footprint" that lingers and it also depends on the season. Didn't answer much but didn't want whoever to think they weren't heard.
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 07:48:31 (ZULU) 

Old Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 16:58:06 (ZULU) 

Darren...
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, Ca, USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 17:11:51 (ZULU) 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Over here, In IL., USA - Sunday, February 14, 1999 at 20:57:05 (ZULU) 

Darren, thanks for the Tasco SS now I need a good mount, will the tapered bases work? And how?

Thanks
MJ
Monterey Jack <montereyjack@kmenterprises.com>
Monterey, Calif., USA - Monday, February 15, 1999 at 01:22:49 (ZULU) 

Semper Fi,

Craig Roberts
Author: "One Shot--One Kill" and "Police Sniper."
Craig Roberts <centurion@mail.tds.net>
Cedar Creek, OK, USA - Monday, February 15, 1999 at 15:00:08 (ZULU) 

Where are you I was trying to contact you via your personal mail address, but program said there is no such address, so I have to use this channel.

Couple days ago I was surfing in internet and visited also Sniper Countrys
Duty Roster. There I read your answer to somebody, I don't remember the
name, but it was 5th of February.
There you offered information about M 852. Last summer I read article about
M852 in Sniper Country, but there was no tables, so I asked public question
in duty Roster "Is there anybody who has ballistic tables of M852". Then I
got no answer. So here I am again and asking you can you send me this info.
Here in Estonia we have Galil sniper rifles which Nimrod optical sight is
calibrated for M 852 so this is reason enough I think.

Second question is about manuals you suggested. FM 23-10 is available in
Internet, but what about others. Are they classified and only for US or can
you give me hint where I can find them.

Thank you for attention and I hope that You can help me.

Lauri
Estonia

Lauri <bnaur@vm.ee>
USA - Monday, February 15, 1999 at 15:30:55 (ZULU) 

Pablito,
Thanks for the e.mail I had read that also and agree with you. We were in class and one of the students ask what the load was for Fed Match ammo and I wihipped it off and he corrected me telling me that there was no way we could duplicte it because they use a "Special Blend" and me being a good student I didn't want to tell him he was full of shit because I had done it right down to the FPS by doing just what you said. In fact I think years back they used 4895 at one time.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, February 15, 1999 at 15:33:57 (ZULU) 

Don't believe me? Ask some of our visitors. They know exactly what I am talking about. They have far more experience with this than me.

I enjoy both PS and TS. I recommend both magazines. They are the best of the bunch. Still, some advertisers are in pretty tight with them. They help pay the bills. Does this affect PS's outlook on moly? I can not say, but it is something to consider. Every magazine suffers this dilemma. Raising questions about a method, be it a cleaning product, scope, coating method, what ever, is not being unkind to a specific magazine. It is simply raisinging honest questions. To PS's credit, you do see the occaisonal article questioning moly. But you have to admit, moly reads like the second coming for the most part. It just might be for many! But I think the truth has still not been completely discovered. Therefore I would still recommend a loader develop a load for tactical shooting in the traditional manner. He can always play with moly once he has the experience to see the difference, whether good or bad. This answer your question?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, February 15, 1999 at 15:36:09 (ZULU) 

POWDER BLENDING; NO!
TOO MANY VARIABLES! Moisture content, or lack of, Age, slight changes in batches chemistry while mixing can be most bogus bad news for the Iselin Dude. You're better chrono'ing each batch loaded and keeping up the log book.

Scott,
A very Nice post Spidey-Bait-Dude, I got your Six, Locked, Loaded, and ready to rock. Hows them there hillbilly photos?

Dave West,
For Shame! Ohier Fly-Boy is still cleaning the Crayon out of the pencil sharpeners at elementary school. After school it'll be cleaning the erasers foe a week. ;-)

Fly-Boy I'm working on "Hooky" coverage as per tele-con

CHAO!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITy, By-Gawd, USA - Monday, February 15, 1999 at 21:51:45 (ZULU) 

Pat II
Pat <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
snows melting in Whiterocks, ut, USA - Monday, February 15, 1999 at 23:45:01 (ZULU) 

Did I mention lots & lots of trigger time?

Take care, all

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
portland, Ken Keseygon, USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 00:58:22 (ZULU) 

peteR: I've still got my crayons and I'm drawing pictures of silly lookin' country boys and putting little itty, bitty targets on their large schnazolas. Have used several for target practice already and have had an enjoyable time. We're all comin' to get ya'll. I can tell you are gettin' a little flabbergasted and nervous. It makes for better shooting and you are going to need all the help you can muster once you start going against us city boys.

My lovely wife awaits, (probably to tell me to take out the garbage.)

Later Gentlemen and you too peteR:

Chow, Man

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Fly Boy City in the Blissful State of , Ohi-er, USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 01:37:55 (ZULU) 

I use their .080" aluminum "2 scoped gun" case for my AR10-(T).

For REALLY long barrels, go a coupla pages further and look at their higher class muzzle loader cases.

Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 02:56:57 (ZULU) 

Hey everyone, who here is getting ready for the Y2K dilemma? We all have been talking about moly, scopes and rifles, etc. But since we are all grounded individuals, with a large dose of realism tossed in for good measure, how many are starting to worry about this Y2K?

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 05:48:06 (ZULU) 

Y2K, ?!

SPOTTER CONFIRMS CENTER HIT! DUUUUUUUDE!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWd, USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 10:46:34 (ZULU) 

Daniel,
"Usually" a case that has 90% or better will be a more accurate or consistant load, but not always, a good example is Varget in a 30-06 there is enough air space left over to, as someone said, "Keep a mouse alive for a week" and it shoots great. I know this probably didn't answer your question but there are exceptions to every rule.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 14:22:59 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 17:14:00 (ZULU) 

One of the problems with you city guys is you don't understand that shooting across the counter at the 7-11 is not an unusuelly long shot.

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Just getting home from a ride on my Motor through , The Wonderful Hills of West Virginia, USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 22:18:49 (ZULU) 

Thanks
CM

Christopher Masiero <Http://MasieroChristopherL@yahoo.com>
Merritt Island., Fl, USA - Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at 22:37:50 (ZULU) 

I've been invovled with computers (both hardware and software)
for well over 20 years.

Currently I'll keep 2 months of food, water, gas, and money
in preparation for Y2k.

Its the embedded processors that make me the most afraid, tiny
things are everywhere, and many just dont know how they'll react.

I am paranoid, no, just being careful.

In worst case, the only hard cash I've blown is for storage containers. Food and gas we'll use, and water I'll use for the animals, sprinklers, etc.

I'd ratehr be laughing about this Jan 1st, than wishing I'd
done something.
Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
Redmond, wa, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 00:48:44 (ZULU) 

Nice job on the UARS stock article, but the only way it will do you any good is if Gooch shoots for you! ;-)

Oh and Say hi to Howie Metzenbaum for me 'Kay.

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bigcity, bygawd, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 00:50:38 (ZULU) 

I think that maybe (jes mebbe) a country boy could combine forces with a city boy and show them all at the Carlos II shoot. It will be a real pissin' contest, but we may turn out to be victorious.

As far as reloading with powder not reaching the maximum case capacity is purely a matter of what the case will hold and the pressures of the powder used. As stated earlier you can use Varget in the 30-06 case and have an air pocket, but then there is the other extreme that loading up cases with a powder drop tube just to be able to fit the recommended powder in the case according to the various reloading manuals. Then you have to crunch the powder when seating the bullet. The only exceptions to this is to try to reach at least 90% cases capacity with the overbore magnums (i.e. 7mm STW, 257 Wby Mag, 378 Wby Mag, etc.) If you don't, you could get a hangfire, and SHIT that smarts, particularily with the big boomers. Magnum primers with these boys are a MUST. But thats a different topic. Almost started to ramble on, but I caught myself. I'm getting better.

Anyway, thats what my wife says. Gotta love that girl!

Later people!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Sittin'Here Bad to the Bone in Bad Ass , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 02:59:53 (ZULU) 

a 7-11 is one of them ther fancy stores that seels gen-u-ine Vienna Sausages, Coffee, Moonpies, and gurly magazines! Some of them even sell Gas and KEEROSEEN!
Next best thing to spending a day at the cement pond with Barb the Nailer! Just don't tell Jeff A., he gets a might jealous!

Good point on a "ready pack" and supplies How bout it guys ready for some real time episodes of "MAD MAX"?

chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bigcity, bygawd, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 12:23:18 (ZULU) 

Sniper Country Baseball Hats and T-shirts

Sniper Country is proud to offer its first official SC Baseball Hat and T-Shirt!!! The Hat color is black with the Sniper Country text logo in Yellow and Red. A white scope reticle will appear to the left of the logo. The hats are available immediately so get your order in now!

The shirt is a heavy duty Hanes Beefy made of 100% cotton. The color is an attractive black shirt with white graphics. The Sniper Country logo will appear above the front chest pocket and an image of a sniper will appear on the back with the Sniper Country web address. Sizes will be limited to Large, XL, and XXL.

XXXL may be available in limited quantities depending on the vendor, so order early to make the first
production run.

Prices are as follows:

Hat Price: $15.00

Shirts:
L and XL - $18.00
XXL - $19.00
XXXL - $21.00

Do to a price break, the original shirt price has been reduced! All prior orders will be adjusted accordingly!

Shipping
$3.50 for one to four shirts and/or hats.
$6.00 for five to 10 shirts and/or hats.
$10.00 for 11 to 15 shirts and/or hats.
All items will be shipped via Priority Mail.

To place an order, send a MONEY ORDER or Cashiers Check to:

Checks to be made out to "Scott Powers"
SC Shirts & hats
C/O Scott Powers
3103 Pruss Hill Rd.
Pottstown PA, 19464

You may order both Sniper Country shirt and Sniper Country hat on one
check. They will be shipped together. Extra shipping is not needed. In other words one hat and two shirts still cost ONLY $3.50 total for shipping.

Personal Checks are accepted but must clear prior to shipping. Sorry, no credit cards.

For more information contact the above address, or email:
Scott Powers

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 14:08:18 (ZULU) 

I appreciate all your moly hate mail (he he) but try to keep in mind when someone asks a question on this site, it usually gets answered from the perspective of the website as opposed to the perspective of civilian plinking. In other words, reloading is a no-go for sniping. Moly is a no-go. Self made gun mods is a no-go. Why? Everyone of the above can NOT be done due to liability or department policy. Most real snipers can only use factory ammo and factory or factory Custom rifles - or if they are really lucky, gunsmith modified and department approved rifles. They are stuck with factory performance and have to wait till the high tech filters down through the factories before they can use it on the job. Also, the elimination of variables is paramount. These guys can not really experiment beyond seeing what shoots the best in their duty rifle.

We at Sniper Country have to balance the reality that many readers are just doing this for fun and education - Not for real. In that light, experimentation can abound as nothing hurtful rides on the results. Moly might be the next great leap in the shooting world. It really might be. But when viewed from a sniper/tactical shooter/military/law enforcement perspective, it really has to be harshly considered until the final results are in. And until it is produced by a major ammunition factory, it will not be standard issue for any departments. Liability, liability, liability.

Please keep this in mind when you read a negative comment on your favorite method. If somebody asks about moly or loading methods on Sniper Country, the staff might say "be wary" but they are saying so from a very specific perspective. For instance, I plan on still carrying on moly experimentation in my varmint rifle. But not my tactical rifle. The PSS does wonders with Fed GM2. To keep it honest and be able to evaluate related gear, I have to use factory fodder in it as this is what a duty slotted person will have to use. He might shoot better with handloads, but he can not use them! That is our perspective. The civilian competitor is especially lucky as he can try ANYTHING to see if it works. In the military you ain’t even allowed to break your rifle down beyond a certain point!

Anyway, Thanks for all the interesting comments. Just try to remember what this web site is about.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 14:43:46 (ZULU) 

Y2K:
my biggest fear is that the dishwasher will crap out and that I will have to do the dishes and the laundry in ye old wooden barrel again.
Maybee the Beemer will skip a oil change and tune up, that would pay for the airfare to SMTC.

Moly:
just read in a catalog of one of Germany´s more respectable Benchrest supplieres the following reason why moly is s´posed to be better.
"since the bullet is being formed with force into the rifeling some minute portions of the jacket material are being formed into little fins that potrude into the area were the boattail begins and act as little air vanes. With a molyed bullet the jacket material forms better into the lands and grooves and is not forced into the little fins " Could be possible, has anyone heard the same ? This is from the importer of berger Bullets and maybee Walt´s reasoning behind it other than making a buck. I think it comes down to another "headspace problem" between our ears.

Some of you remember my "thin wind" theroy ? well guess what !

If you visit http://www.riflebarrels.com/bcchange.htm you might get an answer on my "thin wind" query some months ago on the Duty Roster.
Specifically, the last nine paragraphs address the matter, starting with the one that begins with "A bullet with a ballistic coefficient of .265...."

For all that rember Russ, the "Wrath of God" is completed and he is doing OK, looks like he´ll be in Germany again this summer to play with some of our toy´s.

"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 16:22:02 (ZULU) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 16:33:27 (ZULU) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 16:37:40 (ZULU) 

This is probably the best reason to use moly. The obvious advantages would be a slight increase is BC and therefore a slightly flatter trajectory for the same given velocity. The downside, if you can call it that, is that you sort of have to recalculate all your ballistic tables as they will not exactly match your real world flight characteristics. If you have gone to a great length to develop data on your current load, it means revamping and reproving it all again. You just have to shoot at the normal ranges you expect to compete at and find out what the new trajectory will be.

Here is a question then: if you thoroughly clean the rifle, how many rounds will it take to lay down enough moly to stabilize this non-etching effect on the jacket? Will the first few rounds shoot lower then the following? Or as velocity drops as moly builds, does THAT offset the difference? Variances, variances…
At 100 and 200 yards (BR distances) you probably wouldn’t notice. How about 1000 yards?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 17:22:04 (ZULU) 

Pat has it about right on your questions. I just want to add that I lay the thumb of my trigger hand alongside that hand and where I agree that good technique should prevent torquing I find this method prevents it from happening under stress.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Getting ready for nite-shift in, Beautiful Spring-Like West Virginia, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 18:06:38 (ZULU) 

First on Y2K stuff.
I lead a dull life. I am by trade a computer programmer and Y2k silly-stuff is currently paying the bills and supporting the hobbies so I should not be to critical.
BUT. BUT. BUT. I see no major computer problems. Really guys. Even the micro-processer issue is solved by during the thing off and going manual. The most we will see is some power outages of about 2 hours or so. (Thats how long Ont. Hydro will take to switch over to manual.)

The only real consern I have computer -wise is those FEW cases where a split second outage is critical ( air-traffice control and hospital equipment for the most part.)

People are another story. The really Y2K bug is human. Far too many people will expect someinthg to go wrong big time and will feel obliged to make it so when it does not.

This is a Y2k issues that sniper country should be concered with.

Also , would you consider allowing under 18 vistors with aduilt consent? I would like to recommend your site to a 14 year old but given the restrictions can not. I'm afriad I veiw you as a good
,dare i sa it, inflewce.

All the best
Jiliyan
Jiliyan <jiliyan@hotmail.com>
Toronto, Ont, Canada - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 19:29:28 (ZULU) 

To Bach: bolt manipiulation
One old method that is worth mentioning is to grasp the bolt with the thumb and trigger finger and never let it go. The trigger is then fired with the middle or (nasty finger). This is the fastest way to shoot a bolt rifle. It works best with a rifle that was designed for rapid fire, such as the N0 4 Enfield and also is best used in a Hawkins style prone position.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 21:42:42 (ZULU) 

So that brings me to my next question: what is the fastest you've seen someone manipulate a bolt for several shots? What about doing it accurately? (We don't even need to talk about Oswald).

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 22:51:59 (ZULU) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, February 17, 1999 at 23:13:53 (ZULU) 

Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 00:17:17 (ZULU) 

On bolt manipulation
Fastest method I know of is to use the palm of your hand. After firing the shot, bring your open hand up and catch the knob of the bolt to rotate it. Cup your hand a bit as you come back, then when you hit the bolt stop, let your palm rotate to the back of the bolt knob and push forward. When the round is chambered, catch the knob in the web between your thumb and forefinger and close the bolt. You then only ahve to move the hand a little bit to get it back on the grip. The main advantage of this method is that you have a lot of leverage, don't need to adjust your grip on the bolt, and can't short stroke the bolt.

I usually rest my thumb on the tang of the receiver, right where my safety is on a Ruger (yes, I said RUGER) M77. I like that position 'cause its comfortable and I can flip the safety off or on without moving my trigger finger.

On ruger accuracy - Mine will shoot reliable, consistent 5 shot 0.75" groups at 100 yards with a Leupold 3-9x Vari-X II. Its basically stock except for a bed and free float job and a 2.5 lb trigger from a benchrest gunsmith. .270 Win, 130 gr. Ballistic tips, 57 gr. Reloder 19, clocked at 3050 fps. It might be able to do better, but I can't hold better with that scope and have problems doping wind.

Aufwiedersehn
Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Cold, By-Gawd, MN, USA - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 00:30:18 (ZULU) 

Entry Level SniperB
Costa MesaCý¡?,?­, CACÀ
ßl@, - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 02:39:22 (ZULU) 

Why did you fall in love with bolt guns after watching
"Sniper"? How's about that SR9TC Bill Vanzant was using?
I watched "Lethal Weapon" and wanted a PSG-1. My bank
account, however, discouraged me.

Let's be realistic here, do you really plan on "sniping"
at long range? If so, what do you plan on sniping? I'd
recommend a PSS in .223 to keep your ammo consistent,
unless you've already got other guns in .308. The .223 is
cheaper to shoot with minimum recoil. Get yourself a
nice scope, rings/bases, case, bipod, 1,000 rds of Hirtenberg
55gr, and you'll still have a couple of bills in your hand
left over.

Regards,

Lou

Lou S <spunkbubble@juno.com>
S. Fla, USA - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 03:38:19 (ZULU) 

I recommend spending a lot of time with the AR and a good scope. This will help you develop good habits. The ammo is a lot cheaper as well.

If you must buy a new rifle then I will give you my suggestion. I understand the need to buy new guns occasionally (or frequently).
My idea of the perfect starting long range tactical rifle:
Remington 700 PSS .308 $650
Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40 M3LR $650
Badger Ordanance Rings $125
Badger Ordanance Tilted Scope Base $135
Harris Swivel Bipod S-L $70
Quality Military style sling $35

The Total is $1665 + Tax

$30 for a trigger job and you have a rig as good or better than most
police departments.

Do not get a 300 win mag until you have mastered the 308. The 308 will recoil enough to keep you entertained for a while. You will develop bad habits by starting out with too big a gun. You need lots of practice and the 300 costs too much too shoot. The recoil gets to everybody during a practice session with the big gun. You can shoot all day with the 308 without major recoil effects.

Good Luck.
The Shooter <shooter@unix.tamu.edu>
College Station, TX, USA - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 04:33:15 (ZULU) 

I read Scotts post above about keeping things above about keeping things relevant here, and now I feel bad, but I have two questions I would like to some folks with experience.

Optics:
1)Has anyone owned a vari-xIII and a vari-XII, and been greatly dissatified with the vari-xII? I guess what I am asking is there much difference in the glass.

I'm very satisfied with the optics of the vari-xIII, but have not had any experience with the Vari-xII. My dad and I are building a rifle for my Grandpa and are trying to keep it quality(American) and affordable.

2)Would anyone be able to compare the light gathering capabilities of Light Force 56mm vs a Leupold vari-xIII 50mm @6.5x. Is it whorth the extra bucks? And how much extra light do you really get out of 50mm vs 40mm objective with a Leupold. I have heard that the cross hairs really come apparent But I have not had both a 50mm and a 40mm side by side in low light.

Hope I am not trying to compare apples to oranges,
thanks,
Matthew
Matthew Marx <mam@ra.msstate.edu>
MSU, MS, USA - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 05:46:50 (ZULU) 

Berger makes, lives, dies, breathes, and sleep "moly bullets." Enough said on that. Kevin Thomas' article addressed the enhanced B.C. of using molyed bullets. It's not worth the fuss, at any distance. And until a "cleaning and curing" standard can be established, moly is a variable that isn't worth it. I've got as much moly experience as most of you here, if not more, and I'm telling you that after reading, and re-reading Kevin's article in the July issue of Precision Shooting magazine, I stripped the moly from the bullets I'd already coated. The article should be mandatory reading for moly and non-moly users alike. I still moly-coat bullets for some of my guns -- but never again for anything "tactical," in any sense of the word.

Enfield Shooters: An expert with an Enfield #4 Mk1 against an "expert" with a decent semi-auto? I wouldn't bet against the Enfield guy. If you think I'm joking, you haven't seen what an Enfield can do in the hands of someone who knows how to use one. Accuracy? Always a matter of gunsmithing and money... but speed? "Never underestimate the man with only one rifle" -- especially if it's an Enfield.

Muzzle Brakes: First, it's "brake," not "break." You're reducing felt recoil, not giving the gun a rest in the lounge. Second, based on design, some brakes increase velocity, some don't noticeably change it, and some reduce it, either by a little or a lot. It pays to spend time researching brakes before investing in one. If you don't feel your gunsmith is up to the task, find someone who knows what he's doing and have that person do the work. Often, the same people who make muzzle brakes will also install them. Most installation charges are reasonable.

Well -- I've been asked ("nagged") by a number of you, for MONTHS, to "purty please come back to the Duty Roster." Recently, I received an E-mail that was slightly more persuasive than the others. I've lurked for about a week and a half. Nothing's changed. Remington idolizers, Savage haters, guys with nothing but money to burn, and guys without any at all. Leupold, Leupold, Leupold. Big objectives versus little objectives. I'd prefer not to address the reasons I abandoned the Roster. So, get on with your bickering, questioning, hypothesizing, and whatever. If I see a place to jump in -- I might. I might not. Pat, Bill, Steve, Matt, Torsten, Ed... and the few others of you with whom I'd break bread... "hello."

Pat: I've got the article marked and ready to scan. I'll get it to you most rikky tik.
Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, U.S.A. -- and damn proud of it! - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 11:19:39 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 13:09:40 (ZULU) 

Scopes :

Upon a visit with Schmidt&Bender I noticed that Mr. Bender, when inspecting a scope, always looks into the Objective (front) end first. It is there that an expert and novice as well can see quality of workmanship, cleanlyness, and overall finish the best. So at the Shot Show I went around looking into the front of scopes. The Germans were right there to explain the internals, Leupold got a Tech guy to answer my questions, US Optics and Sheperd looked at me like I was stealing something, but Nightforces reaction was the best. "Ehhh, Sir, you looking into the wrong side of the scope" !!!!!
So I went on to lay the thing down on the edge of the table and began twisting the okular lens up and down which mooved enough to see without even getting close. They then scanned for my badge and when they saw Lasercon, Germany they took their baby away from me.
You go figure !

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 13:42:54 (ZULU) 

as far as posting unrelated things. Don't sweat it. All I said was that when I or another staffer answer a question often the answer is given in terms related to tactical shooting as opposed to other endeavers. But you all can post and question about anything. We just can not control it - so we ask you all try to stick close to the topic. So far, everyone is doing a good job and your questions are not out of bounds for this site.
Matt Marx <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 16:40:09 (ZULU) 

Try using "NO TRESPASSING" and "NO HUNTING" signs on your property first to deter unwanted individuals on your property.Just because someone enters your property doesn't give you the right to take their life no matter what weapon you use.

Unlesss of course you plan on using that quick handling fast cycling bolt action rifle to "defend" yourself when or if that intruder breaks into your home.If that were the case, why need your AR or any hand gun?

Your reference to the movie "Sniper" makes me rather suspicious that you may be the same young man that caused such a shit storm here a few months back.If you are one and the same you know you are not welcome here so why post anything ?If you are not the same individual but a grown adult, then you have my sincere apology.

I'm not trying to "flame you" or be sarcastic but based on your post I would be extremely worried about even accidently intruding on your property.

If you want to hunt a few deer and do some target shooting along the way, isn't a full blown tactical rig a little on the excessive? That would be like using bear traps to catch mice.See my point.

Far be it from me to tell a man how to spend his money but I think you might be better off with a real nice hunting rifle or one of the popular varmint rifles on the market and go from there.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada eh ! - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 21:51:12 (ZULU) 

"[T]he guns that are on the streets of America today are markedly different from the guns that were on the streets 25, 30 years ago: Semi-automatic assault weapons, high-capacity pistols, and now we’re starting to see sniper rifles."

"I’m doing some work right now that to me is just about as cynical and crass an example of gun industry marketing as I’ve seen, and that is the marketing to civilians of sniper rifles. These are not hunting rifles with telescopes, or shooting scopes mounted on them. These are rifles that were designed principally for military and police applications, and are now being presented to the civilian market. It’s something that I first noticed when I was researching the book, and I didn’t have a lot of time to look into it, and I’m doing it now and it’s about as cold an example of selling something just to keep the market going as I’ve seen."
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Thursday, February 18, 1999 at 22:31:28 (ZULU) 

What a thing to get back from four days with the kids in the snow to.

Well I'm still waiting for UPS to give me 1000 yards of nylon for slings, should have been here yesterday. As soon as it gets here I am making slings until my eyes go bad.
Mike M <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 00:02:28 (ZULU) 

On the Y2K issue, I agree that the biggest problem is the human element, but (!) keep in mind that Canada has about 10% of our population, and a corresponding amount of infrastructure. Im glad that Canada seems to be so up-to-date. America isnt, and our potential for problems is huge. Just look at the websites for our power companies, and even they tell their customers to prepare to be without power for up to two weeks...that in the middle of winter.

Dont get scared, dont be paranoid, just get ready. As has been stated here earlier, eat the food, drink the water, (hell, shoot the ammo)if nothing happens. I for one would rather do that than face my family when they ask me why I didnt get ready when I had the chance...instead of standing in a FEMA soup line, living in a government shelter.

I apologise for getting so off-topic, but I had to address this. Our friends from Canada seem to have a rosier picture of the situation than I do. But, they will also have 60,000 Canadian soldiers ready, as well as all the RCMP (leaves not allowed during that period) to handle any problems. Most of us will not have that much help available. I suggest keeping your powder dry.

On second thought, this might end up being more on-topic than I would like.....
Grenadier2 <grenadier2@earthlink.net>
FireBase Bandit, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 02:51:24 (ZULU) 

Will someone explain to me what a sniper rifle is? What the heck is the big deal if someone wants and can purchase a tactical style rifle. A sniper rifle is not a sniper rifle until there is a SNIPER behind the trigger. Sniper rifles do not kill people, Snipers kill people. Come on guys, support these fellas, I could use the business, ha! And why start the guys out on those wimpy 22's when they could start with 416 Rigby's and work their way down. Shot one the other day, would much rather shoot the 300 all day than a five shot group with that cannon. Well that's all for now.

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 03:50:51 (ZULU) 

Dustin,
I would recommend a school like Storm Mountain to learn the skills you are looking for. You will be able to get a good start and not develope any bad habits by trying to do it yourself. IN shooting a little knowledge can be a dangrous thing. I am not saying you can't pick it up on your own but it sure saves a lot of time and heart ache to have a good instructor or "MENTOR". Good luck.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 03:54:23 (ZULU) 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 04:02:54 (ZULU) 

To Torsten: "How does the new Savage shoot?" It's fun! You deploy the bipod, lock your body "in," and squeeze the trigger. Shooter and rifle rock back on the bipod -- reminds me of tank gunnery and how the tank recoils. I pressure-tested 10 loads and, aside from breaking in the barrel with 40 rounds ("light" loads of 117 grains of H50BMG), that's been all to date. I found a range within an hour of me that has a 1,000-yard range. I'm going to contact a person affiliated with the club and see if I can use the range for my load work-up. So far, I'm still without a place to get 1500 yards "in my area"... but I'm not worried yet, load development comes first. Out of the 10 loads, it looks like I'll go with 121 grains of powder and just play with (bullet) seating depth.

"Ende"

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 06:13:56 (ZULU) 

It would be interesting if some journalist asked to see my "sniper rifle." One look at my SR-25 and they'd swear it was an "assault rifle" good only for spraying bullets. I wonder how they'd reconcile the two misnomers?
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@netcom.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 07:59:15 (ZULU) 

http://www.huntinfo.com/wwwboard/handload/messages/2070.htm

While most of you guys are asleep, I'm up all night trying to make sure that 25 or 30 systems stay running. During the downtime, I visit lots of websites, read a lot, and generally try to stay conscious. (I hate third shift.) Anyway, if you'd cut-and-paste the URL above, ESPECIALLY THOSE OF YOU WHO HANDLOAD YOUR OWN AMMUNITION, you might find the material worthwhile reading. We all need reminders from time to time.

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 08:01:10 (ZULU) 

JR,
I missed part of your post about a spotter, if you were asking me a question. I will be coming out to RC maybe next week and I need to talk to Janet about the Wyoming shoot and I would like to stop in and meet you also if you will be there. Let me know if this will be possible.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 14:23:14 (ZULU) 

Sgt. G

It's great to be back here in Camp Lejeune, with My M-40 again!!!!
Sgt. Gimmellie
CLNC, Nc, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 14:32:27 (ZULU) 

The ads you see in where a soldier or a SWAT team member is brandishing his weapon and looking totaly stressed out is nothing more than an invitation for a non-firearms enthusiast to say these "Sniper" weapons don't belong in the hands of civilians.

If these companies would change their advertising focus and back off from presenting these rifles as offensive weapons I think this may be a good start.

I don't think it is right to censor anyone's advertising.However, this is not a censorship issue,it has more to do with common sense.

Sure, we all know what these rifles can do and what they are intended for.The sellers of these rifles do not need to convince anyone of this.So is there really a need to sensationalize the purpose for which these weapons are intended?I think not.

My previous post regarding "Entry Level Sniper" is a perfect example on how marketing hype can influence someone to buy something that they really do not need for what they want to do with it.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada eh ! - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 16:38:54 (ZULU) 

Just a few words on the Gy Hathcock match then its back to work.

You military and police snipers need to know that the match will be conducted as sustainment training. We will have a Kims game, target detection ex, range estimation, stalk etc. If you are a graduate of a military or LE/FBI school you will be very familiar with the events. The scoring systems will be very simple and straight forward. Rod and I have been conducting training and competitions for over 20 years as full time jobs so you can depend on a well run match. Being 8541's and B4's ourselves, Rod and I really want to see you military guys out here.

Civilians this is a good chance to learn while you compete. Each event will be explained in-depth prior to execution and you will able to learn from the other competitors. If your skills are rusty come out anyway and get trained up.

Guys, Storm Mountain loses money when we run this match. ALL money goes to Gunny. Staff salaries, supplies etc comes out of hide. What does the buisness get out of it? We get people to see our center and thats it. Personally, our emphasis is for all of us snipers who owe so much to people like Gunny to get a chance to train, visit and share commaradery while contributing to a worthwhile cause. Being 8541's and B4's ourselves, Rod and I really want to see you military guys out here. We want this to turn into an annual gathering where we can tell lies, share stories and learn from each other.

Our prize list grows daily. We now have a pelican gun vault, KUSA ghillie smock, Mildot Masters galore, 5 UARS stocks for Remington Short actions from Autauga Arms(www.members.xoom.com/autauga) and a TAC ORD sniper rifle (www.tac-ord.com).

LtCol Chandler is coming and we are yanking the chains of other "VIP's" in the community also to attend.

Lets make this thing happen! If we don't start getting more people to sign up its gonna make me wonder about some of you guys. We have more Canadians signed up than anyone else. I thought this was "sniper country"!

Sorry if Im getting pushy here but what the f*#&!

Rod has his whip out so its back to work!

Love,
Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 17:39:25 (ZULU) 

I am considering replacing the trigger in my Savage 110FP with a Canjar trigger. Would this be a worth while idea? Or are there any better triggers available for this rifle for a reasonable price? If possible, please e-mail me directly with your responses at jntmjt1@dancris.com

Thanks for your time,
John Thomas

John Thomas <jntmjt1@dancris.com>
USA - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 19:15:04 (ZULU) 

This should qualify as a "tactical" question. When a sniper(probably L.E.) is engaging a target thru glass, do you have to compensate for any deflection of the bullet? Is there some rule of thumb for this?

There is info on "moly" in the Ammunition and Handloading section.

Person looking for a load for 175 M.K's may want to work up to a max. load of IMR 4895, I've had very good results with it.

Later.
Pup <f_gnlvr@hotmail.com>
Canada - Friday, February 19, 1999 at 23:41:01 (ZULU) 

Pup: What type of glass are shooting through? At what distance? What angle? You sure don't make it easy do you?

Y2K: Ive got 5000 rounds of 308s, 10,000 rounds of .223, 5,000 rounds of 45ACP, 30 cases of Miller Lite, and 25 cases of Kraft Macaroni and Cheese dinners. I'm ready to party. Frankly, I think its hooey too!!

Mistah Gooch (Said with the greatest reverence and respect): All these professional snipers from the US and Canada. What will be given away as the booby prizes? (Just want to know what I'm going to be taking home.)

And finally Russ: Welcome back. You know sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't. I feel with kids a little discretion and compassion are the answer. Do't get me wrong. I'm not a bleeding heart, pinko, liberal, dingleberry. I'm all for the death penalty and getting rid of society of these dredge we have to feed and clothe on a daily basis. But 10 and 11 year olds. Hell, they haven't even found out what their peckers are supposed to really used for (hell even sometimes I forget.) But just to relay an incident thats going on in Ohio right now. There is this asshole named Wifred Berry and the press calls him Volunteer because he want to die for a murder he cmitted 10 years ago. (I think they are "dripping" him right now as I write.) Well, hell there are still liberal malcontents who don't want that to happen. They claim that it insults us as caring individuals. Hell I say let him die. He cold heartedly took a life and we are doing it to him now. Now tell me folks don't you just love stories with a happy ending...

Well, gotta go for now. Gotta make some 308s for Y2K and for Storm Mountain.

al
Al (Fly-Boy) Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net (NOTE Change)>
Just stiiting Here and Thinking in the Soon to Be Spring State of , Ohi-er, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 01:57:47 (ZULU) 

On the question of "sniper rifles", guess this idiot country boy ain't real sure what the pansies are talking about. All of my guns are either hunting rifles, shotguns or pistols. Nothing more, nothing less. Some do have heavier barrels, but frankly never could figure out why.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 02:04:03 (ZULU) 

There was no question towards you on spotters. Except maybe that you would probably agree that a spotting scope and spotter would be the way to go if you wanted to start shooting. These entry level snipers will go out and spend their life savings on a gun and glass but don't consider spotting scopes. Essential they are. Ask a bench rest shooter or a sniper zeroing in at the range, get a spotting scope and a friend to watch for you, critical if you really want to know where you are missing.

Oh, one more thing Bullet, glad to hear you are making your way out to the Black Hills, won't be a problem with Janet for us to shoot the shit for a bit, only you should let me know what day you think you'll be out so I make sure I can get a damned hair cut, don't want you tellin' people I'm some kind of hippie!!! See ya then!

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 02:19:58 (ZULU) 

Al, Russ etc. juvinile justice...an interesting topic. If you fry the kids it acts as near zero deterrance to others as they have no concept of mortality. If you take a reahab approach you are in effect taking an already severly disturbed individual and placing them into a situation of constant and total chaos, "the system", not good either. After a trip through the system, you end up with the atittude: "next time I will shoot the cop to so I don't get caught". Probation is 50/50, flip a coin and you will predict who will reoffend as accurately as any PHD. There is just no good answer (besides re-educating liberal puke parents that refuse to disipline their kids) but I tend to agree with Russ, by executing the offender you may not have any great deterrant effect but you will prevent that individual from hurting more people after they are released at 18. alert alert- sniper content...smoke the little bastards in the act and be done with it.

B Rogers, nice post, sometimes we forget that we are all of a commom culture.

has anyone run across 34mm rings yet?

check Midway for Canjar savage triggers.

.338 on a .505 case? anyone anyone?
Rich <rich76@hotmail.com>
far from home, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 02:23:57 (ZULU) 

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 03:39:20 (ZULU) 

Al O: You dirty dog, NICE ROAD SIGN!!!!!!! You sure that wasn't here in South Carolina????

Scott: GREAT site for the Sniper Country Wear! My MO will be in the mail ASAP, (now that I know what to pay)!!!!

Torsten: Cookies enroute, stand by for rangeing shot, keep the Jell-O and hot tub going.......

Bain: Do you have any answers on the composite barrels that my buddy Bruce asked about?

ALL: Does anyone have for sale or know where I can get a real issue cheek pad for my M1D? The one I got with the rifle lost a hole and tore so I really need a new one but I won't want other than real issue

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:05:44 (ZULU) 

Out here
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:19:17 (ZULU) 

Out here, (for real this time)
Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:24:08 (ZULU) 

Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 05:43:16 (ZULU) 

PeteR,
DUDE!!!! The name is "Darrell" not Dave. One more slip like that and Al & I will come take your surf board away from you. ;-)

Someone was asking about 10 round mags for the M1A/M14 rifle.
Well, I've only found two makes of them. One sucks and the other one is a little $$$. Your right, they do come in handy while doing prone shooting. Also, in some states you can't hunt with the 20 round mags if you were to use your M1A/M14 for a deer rifle.
Check Springfield Armory out for the 10 round mags. It's the best all-around mag you can get "for now" on them.

Scott Powers loves M1A rifles. Maybe he could jump in and give a hand on them, since he just LOVES them sooooooo much. ;-)

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Orland Park , IL., USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 06:46:16 (ZULU) 

T4 Cheek Pad, World War II era K-Line for M1C or M1D. - $85

The url for the page it is listed on is http://www.scott-duff.com/Rifles.htm#Parts

I think that's the correct critter. If not then let me know, there's another site I can check.

Gooch: I know that guy with the ghillied whip is lurking right around the corner, but didn't you say something a while back about a new model of rangefinder that was going to come out at SHOT? I'm curious as to what the specs are as I'm shopping for a rangefinder and I'd hate to buy one 2 days before a "twice the range and half the price and weight" model comes out!

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 07:37:43 (ZULU) 

Thanks in advance
Seth <CaptAhab@collegeclub.com>
San Diego, CA, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 07:44:58 (ZULU) 

Saw the stuff on the CMP. Article I read in Stars and Stripes said that about 20% of the weapons went out without proper background checks. Do not know where the stats came from though.

The issue on sniper rifles being inherently evil. Logic is not a major factor in the anti camp. I know anti's well, both in passing contact, as well as some close friends, courtesy of a few years in a liberal arts college. A lot of their thought process seems based more on gut reaction than empirical evidence. UNLESS you can show them the weapons, let them play with them, and see for their own selves the differences, quoting stats will not do a bit of good. Besides, one of my SOTIC instructors could outshoot me any day with his deer rifle. Ain't the gun, it's the nut behind the bolt.

The state of the sniper in the Army hit a new low. The sniper squad just got axed here. Snipers still around, just a different role. Yet at the same time I'm supposed train the snipers from 2 bn's. Confusing, no?

Spotting scopes. Looking for one. Partial to B&L, and Leupold. Seem to remember someone raving about Optolyth(?). What is great about them and how much dinero? How they compare to the ones listed above? Anyone have a scope near and dear to them that they love above all else? Just as long as it is variable power and has a 45 deg. eyepiece.

Enough for now, to much malt.

ED <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greivous, ROK - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 10:09:54 (ZULU) 

GOOD!!! Fry them before they breed!

Can you say...."DARWINISM"?!?! How about "NATURAL SELECTION"?!?!

If that was done, it would rid the gene pool of obviously defective DNA before it was passed on to future degenerates.

Their last words could be, "Mom...Dad...the family tree stops HERE!"

:-)

O.K., I am climbing down from the soapbox now...

Later,

Bruce Braxton <Braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 10:59:17 (ZULU) 

Thats good however: Mom, Dad - the family tree stops here!

Now, for more enteraining topics: Can anyone out there tell me where I can obtain the adjustable stock which is like on the Arctic Warfare tactical rifle. Or is that stock style only available as a complete rifle?

Also about tactical/sniper rifles. Any rifle which you have in your gun cabinet, from a Rug (let me try this again!) R -U -G-E (Aw piss on it you know what I'm talking about) 10-22 to the most sophisticated HK-PSG1 can theoretically be used as a sniper rifle. This is a rhetorical question and really hasn't any answer. Sure makes for an interesting topic of discussion. And thats why we are here!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowic@nls.net>
Sitting Here rubbing the Sleep from eyes in Snowy , Ohio, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 11:56:58 (ZULU) 

I used Varget with the Sierra 175Mk's for 1000 yd shooting. Rifle was a Winchester Heavy Varmint in 308. Velocity was about 2600fps. N140 would be good too. Unfortunately, there is no way other than working up a load to see what it takes to make the Sierra 175 Mk's work in your rifle. Varget is cheaper than N140. It is very consistant, and is not as affected by temperature extremes as other powders. My rifle had a 26" barrel with 1/12 twist. I also shoot these out of my M1A, using 41.0 Grains of IMR 4895, Velocity about 2500fps. M1A barrel is a 1/10, 22" in length.

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville, KY , USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 12:24:03 (ZULU) 

my quarter, and MY meter is running

on the CMP sneak attack, another atypical spineless senator/congressman tactic, make a hit n'run statement and slink back to the sewer. Guilty until proven innocent by the media and politico's.

Folks real world, when "Tachy-Brady 1" was passed, the next target WAS all magazine fed highpowered rifles and shotguns. I believe the statement was made by a very drunken Sarah B. in front of the wrong people, at the wrong party.
I made certain that everyone in my little intel loop at the time was aware but was just labeled the doomsayer dude, right? Now I still don't think so! Will ya check back on that through the ILA database for me Grasshopper, it might just be there?

Kids n'crime. Hey look at Great Britain and their approach during the Industrial Revolution. A bit Draconian maybe, but better than being a victim.

Age don't matter, look at D.C. and their progeny. Regular or Extra Cripp'sy?

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-BAD-DEEPFRY-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 14:38:27 (ZULU) 

Hey, you don't have to remove the reciever from the stock for cleaning. Get you a gun cleaning cradle, so you put the rifle in the cradle upside down. Use one of the little plastic bolt hold-open devices, or just slide an M14 stripper clip into the stripper-clip guide to hold the bolt open.
We turn the rifle upside down to keep the solvent out of the bedding and the gas system. You will need a gas system wrench to hold the gas system while removing the gas plug to clean out the inside of the gas cylinder and remove the gas piston for cleaning. If you don't use the gas system wrench you will screw up the splines on the gas system and cause the gas system to be loose on the barrel. I put a little grease on the tip of the tail of the gas piston when I put it back in the clyinder. Clean the piston and the inside of the cylinder with some Hoppes #9 and wipe it all off or use some BreakFree ( CLP ). Both work well. It usually takes about 70 inch Lbs to get the gas plug tightened properly, and then put some red paint on the cylinder and plug to mark it so you can tell if it loosens up on ya. Also, ya won't need the torque wrench anymore if you paint the index marks like this.
I only do a complete disassembly if I get caught in a heavy rain. If I don't get in a soaking rain, then I take it down after the Highpower season is over for cleaning and inspection. I shoot about 1500 rounds per year through this rifle. Shooter Choice High Tech grease is great for the M14/M1A. Get a little 1/4 wide, 1/4 long artist paint brush to lube the parts of the reciever that are hard to reach. You can get these at WalMart in the crafts dept.
Shooters Choice Bore cleaner is better for cleaning than Hoppes, but you can't leave Shooters in the bore, I use BreakFree after I finish with the Shooters. And as with any rile, use a one piece cleaning rod.

You can Email me if you like.

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 17:33:36 (ZULU) 

If you can't find what you want, get some of that pink building insulation foam board and make a replica of what you want and glass a mold over the top. disolve the foam with lacquer thinner and you are ready to mold your own stock pannels. The aluminium frame takes all of the stress so you are really just building a "handle" for your rifle.

kids, yes I remember what it was like to be 10, taking a rifle without permission, shooting without permission, pointing a rifle at someone, were all things that would warrant a world class ass whupin'. The difference is that when we were 10 we were not going on killing sprees. there is no good answer as to why these kids don't get the message, but you have to take a long hard look at the parents.

what kind of bedding goo works best with wood stocks? good idea to pillar bed a wood stock?
Rich <rich76@hotmail.com>
a galaxie far far away, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 19:02:09 (ZULU) 

I got an M1 from the CMP a couple of years ago, and had to be fingerprinted by a LE Agency, and fill out all sorts of applications, but it was worth the 13 month wait to get a real nice M1. I recently applied for a smallbore match rifle for my son. As I have a concealed carry license, supposedly I won't need to wait for another background check. Same thing for people who are Sworn LE Officers and Military types with a current security clearance.
This info is available from the CMP website linked from SC. The CMP ships the guns via the US MAIL! The look on my letter carriers face was priceless! Mailorder M1's, Oh No!( Just Kiddin', she was pretty cool )
Check out the requirements for purchase, and then get a real piece of US Military History. Current price is about $400.

Best Regards

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER.aol.com>
Shelbyville, KY, USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 20:53:55 (ZULU) 

The GAO audited the CMP recently and gave them what was actually a very good report. The major discrepency found was that, in the old DCM days, they sold about 20% of the rifles to persons who used one of the bypass methods instead of submitting fingerprints. This includes those with security clearances, law enforcement officers, (then) current members of the military and others who were obviously about to go on a killing spree with their military weapons

Remember this took place when there was direct congressional oversight of the DCM. Anyway, the director submitted a response which apparently (I haven't read it yet and so can't be definite) covered almost everything. Also, those who bought guns in this manner are being sent through NICS post facto to check for nuts (or lack thereof)

Thats the story. There is more at www.jouster.com.

Weider

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 22:11:04 (ZULU) 

Vari X II vs. Vari X III : I have a 6-18 Vari X II and it does just fine.

"sniper rifle" definition: Any rifle can be a "sniper" rifle. My .54 caliber flintlock acted as a "sniper" rifle a few years ago when I put a round ball between a deer's nostrils at 85 yards. No, that's not where I wanted the round to go. I was holding between his eyes.
NoName
USA - Saturday, February 20, 1999 at 23:25:36 (ZULU) 

Accuracy International is now manufacturing their rifle stock to fit the Remington Short Actions. I had the opportunity to see this stock at the SHOT Show. I personally found this stock more comfortable than the UARS stocks. The stock is not cheap at around $700.00 with out the adjustable cheek piece. This accessory was in the area of an additional $150.00. Save up your money or buy a Mc Millan A-3 and have it properly bedded. Just be prepared to wait for stock delivery.

I had a conversation with the folks from Mc Millan. They have added a new inletting machine and expect to get the delivery time down to a more reasonable time frame. (Believe it when I see it.)

Bruce G. Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce G. Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jax, FL, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 04:01:20 (ZULU) 

Wilfred Berry doesn't really want to die, he just doesn't want to be confined for the rest of his life. He said the fellows on the cellblock beat the hell out of him a few times and he can't take it. Poor baby. Oh Well, I guess he's already history now. Them other bad boys on the Cellblock are starting to worry about who's next. Good.

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
KY, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 04:33:17 (ZULU) 

I did go ahead and order the McMillan A3...last august AL O told me that if I ordered then that I would have a nice christmas presant...yep, right around christmas I got the stock, only four months wait. I seem to remember it was around $400 for adjustable cheek and butt.

JR, are you guys making the Dakota stocks now?
Rich <rich76@hotmail.com>
far from it, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 04:52:20 (ZULU) 

I've got info on Nikon's and Bushnell's new rangefinders on my webpage link below.
spectr17
Sunny and warm Redlands, Ca., USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 07:20:29 (ZULU) 

I'm an ex-army guy w/M-16 experience out to 300 meters. I'm currently getting ready to buy a rifle to take to the range & eventually get good enough to hit targets at 1000 yds.I also intend to use this rifle to hunt deer for meat while incorporating some marksmanship(500 yards or so)skills in the hunt.I narrowed my choice down to a Remington 700 .308 cal but I am not that knowledgable about rifle technology. Therfore I don't know which edition(varmint, sendero, police special) is best suited for my needs. I will mostly be using the rifle for target shooting. I have a couple of questions to ask.

1.Is this choice of rifle & caliber reasonably suitable to meet most of my needs?

2. I'd also like to add that I've never been hunting before. How realistic am I being about thinking of hitting a deer at 500 yards & will I drop it if I do hit him?

3. For 1000 yd. target shooting, how huch power(magnification) should I be looking for in a scope? Is mil-dot recommended? Any other features? What MM?

4. While inspecting a rifle in the store, is there anything specifically I should be looking for?

5. At 1000 yds., how much damage would a .308 do to a deer? human?

Any info that can be provided will be helpful. Thanks!
James Carter <james.m.carter1@lmco.com>
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 08:56:50 (ZULU) 

Often, the question comes up of "Why are kids doing this stuff now? We didn't do it when we were kids!"

Any of you who have NOT read "On Killing" by LTC Dave Grossman are sorely missing out. This book covers not only "warfare killing", but the kind of carnage that we see on the street. He does a wonderful job of explaining the de-sensitizing of America's youth to the whole killing process.

And, if you want a real treat, go see one of his LIVE presentations. I have seen the 4-hour version and will be in his 8-hour class in Mid-March. I don't know if there are opportunities for civilians to see the presentation. Every one that I have heard of has been at some sort of an L.E. training conference.

One of the most startling facts that he has uncovered is that we are in a lot more trouble than the "Murder Stats" would show. Although the per-capita murder rate has remained relatively steady since the turn of the century, the Aggravated Assault rate has absolutely skyrocketed. Many more folks are TRYING to kill each other, but the docs keep saving the victims.

Again, buy the book, at the very least (available at Barnes & Noble and thru Amazon.com...around $15). See the show if you can.

Later,
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 09:57:48 (ZULU) 

I have two of these little red Crony´s made in Canada ? work OK, but I am considering a new Oehler with a printer. Any advanches in technology ? Thanks

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 13:20:39 (ZULU) 

1.Is this choice of rifle & caliber reasonably suitable to meet most of
my needs? Yes.

2. I'd also like to add that I've never been hunting before. How
realistic am I being about thinking of hitting a deer at 500 yards &
will I drop it if I do hit him?
When hunting, I would much prefer that you practice your fieldcraft skills and try to get as close as possible. Save those 500 yard shots for house cats. Personaly I feel that shooting a game animal at those kind of ranges with high-tech equipment violates the spirit of fair chase.

3. For 1000 yd. target shooting, how huch power(magnification) should I
be looking for in a scope? Is mil-dot recommended? Any other features?
What MM? For 1000 yard prone target shooting I have tried everthing from open sights to 24x and could not tell much difference in my scores. I prefer 8 to 12x power. For benchrest 1000 yard shooting something with a little more power is probably better. I like the old Unertls best for target shooting.

4. While inspecting a rifle in the store, is there anything specifically
I should be looking for? Yes, the side of the reciever should say Winchester :-) Buy the cheapest one you can find. you are going to be throwing the barrel and stock away.

5. At 1000 yds., how much damage would a .308 do to a deer? human?

At 1000 yards, a 308 bullet is traveling at 22 long rifle velocity. I have had bullets bounce of of sandbags at the top of the target pits and hit me in the head. I would not have wanted to be one of those sandbags though.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 13:58:04 (ZULU) 

James, a 308 is a fine caliber for what you are wanting to do. But, you do not want to take a 1,000 yard shot at a deer with it. Chances are, if you hit it at that range, you will not be the one eating it... If you find you enjoy hunting deer, you will also find that the hunt is more enjoyable than the shot. Get close, then work on getting closer. 500 yards is no good, for deer, in my opinion. Work and you will get much closer. I agree with Steve's assessment of fair chase. With experience, you will too.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 15:10:15 (ZULU) 

Go to the Hot Links on the menu here at Sniper Country. Find the Sniper Store Link and then find AWC rifles. Sorry, but this is as close as I could get to an AWC link.

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <DC8PLUMBER@aol.com>
KY, USA - Sunday, February 2l.co999 at 15:12:53 (ZULU) 

Mr. Liles, Dude,
been meaning to ask, How many clicks do you put on the rear sight of a 1911 to connect at 800 yards?

Bruce Buell,
Are You coming to Carlos 2 at Storm Mountain???

If nobody else signs up I guess Al O., and I will get a clean sweep of all the neat goodies. Well, IF he makes it past the banjo players while traveling inbound.

Speaking of stress, a very nice, artickulate, piece by Rod Ryan in latest TS on stress/training. I especially like the photo of somebody(?) doing West Virginia push ups! "Whos Your Rangemaster?" ;-)

Chao

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 15:19:44 (ZULU) 

Savage triggers, I must have a good touch or just been lucky with mine. After a little work (and I do mean little) the trigger is crisp and clean. Maybe I'm just used to mil triggers so it just seems so good.

Got .45 and M1 loads to test...

Roy out
Roy Thomason <thomason@cos.saic.com>
Co Spgs, CO, USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 15:37:30 (ZULU) 

"Save those 500 yard shots for housecats."??? Why? You might miss!! Besides, everybody needs a GOOD shot at a little pussy now and again, eh?
LeRoi
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 16:21:06 (ZULU) 

any input from you girls on this one ??? A friend wants a new rifle, he´s getting rid of a Rem 700 VS and his defence budget allows for a SAKO TRG. Seems to be a straid forward rig with nothing to add.

Badger Ordnance ??
are these the guys that make the canted Picatinney mount and matching rings ? Do they have a Site ? Wonder if they would make a custom mount for a Mauser 86SR and a SAKO TRG ??? Both have a square looking receiver with a 17mm Prism on top. The original Mounts that are available are not canted and to high since they were inteded for Observatorys rather than usable Scopes.

Thanks

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup-globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 17:07:18 (ZULU) 

Very glad to hear from you! Welcome.

I tried the handloading website you posted , but I'm at work and got a "no access allowed" message. I plan on reading it. I'll find it at home.

All:

After 4 months of work.. work.. at the job; I finally got to my 5th match. In Ala., sponsored by Autauga, at Hardrock range: 500, 600, 700yds. Great experience. The match was on Sat. 2/20, but I got to drive over early on Fri. and try and get scope settings. Actually the "zero" time spent on Fri. was more educational. And I got to know yet another shooter or two that hertofore, I'd only shaken hands with. The next day , there were 50+ competitors; shifty wind and very much mirage. You couldn't see any bullet strike after the first relay due to the mirage.

The day before, I had established settings at all yardages and got some practice doping for wind. Sunlight was intermitent w/ mostly overcast. Fred Brooks, a shooter and new friend, was coaching and spotting. He was taking his time to help me. Fred, thank you.

The next day the sun was out, bright with mirage. Seeing bullet holes was moot. Trusted my settings and let 'em go. Everything was consistently about 0.5-1 moa low at all yardages. "Lights up, sights up" was pointed out to me by a couple of shooters. It is a concept I'm now more familiar with.

I didn't score all that well. So what. I LEARNED another thing (or two). And more important and valuable than anything was that priceless esprit de corp that exists in abundance at a gathering of shooters. Common ground; ease of friendly commmunication; and , to me, the raw magnificence of the event. It's a clean, healthy, and by God, spiritually-based endeavor that can be felt and tasted the first ( or the fifth) time it's tried.

Pat:

To the 260 but didn't gete a chance to see what it'd do at those ranges. Instead, I shot Berger 185 w/ 44.0 gr N150. Wish I could have tested the 260 at the longer ranges.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga., USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 19:06:27 (ZULU) 

I was going to buy a TRG-S in .338 Lapua and gradually customize it over a period of time.I did not particularly care for the looks of the TRG itself.

I figured that I could customize a TRG-S cheaper than buying a TRG and get exactly what I wanted in the first place.

I had in mind a McMillan A2 or HS Pro Series stock,aftermarket bull heavy barrel by Dan Lilja,and an adjustable aftermarket trigger.The TRG-S itself was on sale for $675 Canadian funds.I figured the whole package would cost me around $2000 by the time it was complete.

I was ready to place my order for the TRG-S when I found a Weatherby Accumark (comes with HS stock and stainless steel fluted barrel) in .340 Weatherby.It was used very little and bought it for only $850 Canadian.I couldn't pass up the deal and settled for it instead.

You didn't mention if he was going for a magnum or not.The Sako L691 is about as strong and finely made as they come.Sako certainly doesn't need my endorsement,that's for sure.

I would certainly recommend the Sako if that's what your friend wants.If he gets it,fill me in on how it works.I'd love to hear about it.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 19:29:15 (ZULU) 

Tlhanks,

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, February 21, 1999 at 21:10:30 (ZULU) 

AWC site is www.awcsystech.com. Check out Fast Action Handle. Just got mine back... superb piece of equipment.
Bill 971 <lhardin1@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 01:04:01 (ZULU) 

Your point about not shooting all your shots at the same target is true. Somewhere in my mind I remember reading that the Navy SEALS conducted a test on this same thing, and concluded semi and a bolt engagement times being equal. I don’t think I could agree with the conclusion about the lag time. I would have to see the methodology the Navy used for the test. If all the targets are hidden, and you really have to search for them, then the difference would be nullified. If it was a shooting gallery environment, then it would be different story.

I’ve never seen an Enfield (battle rifle) that would shoot into 3 inches at 200yds. 6 inches is more my experience. C. Shore talks about Enfields shooting into 1.5 inches at 100Yds in his book, but I would like to see that as well.

Rich: The whole waiting for the gas gun to cycle thing has been going back and forth since the late 1930s

Brian
Portland, ME, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 02:31:48 (ZULU) 

I am currently using the Sierra "Infinity" software. You can get it with the Loading Manual incorporated, but I found that unnecessary.

The best thing about it is that you can run ballistic comparisons at different ranges, under different conditions, for several bullets at a time.

I.e., if you want to compare the Berger 73 grain LTB with a 69 SMK and a Hornady 75 A-max, it will print a chart with one bullet path in blue, one in red, and one in green. Most excellent for comparisons.

You can also change the environmental factors, such has humidity and temperature, to compare their effects.

Runs about $35 US.

Later,
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 03:10:18 (ZULU) 

Ende

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 06:12:55 (ZULU) 

I am new here, so don't slam me too hard if this has been covered. I have read quite a few archives and see that no one really talks about the HK-91's or SR-9's. I also have a PSS 308 that I am very happy with, so I am not partial to semi's. Is it the cost of the HK's or the flying brass? I mostly varmint and paper shoot so revealing my location is not a health risk.

Another question, what is the break-in procedure for the SR-9 308 having the polygonal barrel? Is it the same as the PSS? Can I expect 1/2-3/4 moa from this rifle using the Federal 168gr Gold Medal?

Thanks in advance, this is a great forum with great advice.

Jake

Jake <hunter_308@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 08:09:23 (ZULU) 

Savage triggers: If you don't want to tune it, Canjar makes one, as has been stated, and there's a "Sharp Shooter" trigger also available. Both are sold by Midway. I'd recommend the latter.

To Ed: I've got your new AIM ID noted and entered at work and at home. I don't know about "real issue," but you might try Creedmoor Sports for your cheek pad.

Creedmoor Sports
P.O. Box 1040
Oceanside, CA 92051
1-800-4-HIPOWR
1-800 -444-7697
FAX (619) 757-5558

To 1SG Humphreys: Hello, Top. For manuals, though the prices are a bit higher than I personally prefer, you can get most of what you want from U.S. Cavalry -- I'm sure you can get your hands on one of their catalogs. Their website is at http://www.uscav.com/index.asp . Do a search on their site, like I did, for "manual." Also, check http://www.uscav.com/Shop/itemdetail.asp?item=5&stk_code=WN18251 . It might be something you'd be interested in.

To James Carter, Question #5: Part A. Not enough. Part B. Enough.

To Bruce: "On Killing" is one of my favorite books on the subject of men in combative situations. I stated MONTHS ago on the Duty Roster that it should be required reading for everyone with our "interests." I'll bet there isn't even a handful of people on here who have read it. If you would E-mail me with a schedule of his speaking engagements, I'd be VERY grateful. Thank you.

To Doc: Thanks for the "heads up" on the television show. I'll set my VCR. Thank you. Seriously.

To Brian: "I've never seen an Enfield (battle rifle) that would shoot into 3 inches at 200yds. 6 inches is more my experience." Um, mine gets 1 MOA at 100 yards from a COLD barrel. It's in a sporter configuration now, but it shot the same way when it was in a wood stock. No gunsmithing involved, either. True, 1 MOA at 100 doesn't necessarily equate to 1 MOA at 200 yards, but I'm "pretty sure" it'd do better than "six inches" at 200. In all fairness, though, my gunsmith, who has seen my targets, has told me that he's never seen an Enfield do that well. Go figure. Anyway, this is with Hornady 174-grainers and 41 grains of N-140.

To Torsten: With YOUR money?? Get the Oehler. ("Ay-ler" for anyone who cares to pronounce things the right way.)

"Ende"

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 08:47:43 (ZULU) 

Russ, lets compare funds, the one that has more money pay´s the others overdraft and R&D and Prototype expenses for some Patents.
I´m just a little Oberfeldwebel in the Reserves, your the El Capitan.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
poor as a Churchmouse, in, Germany - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 09:49:57 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 13:57:00 (ZULU) 

Sounds like you have found the "special" tools for the .223.

Don't spread it around too much.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SE, IL, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 15:30:06 (ZULU) 

I need info and recomendations for glass to mount on a TRG-41 in .338 Lapua magnum. Ama considering US Optics stuff but do not know anybody who has ever had one. They claim great stuff but...

Also need sources for ammo and reloading stuff for the .338 Lapua mag.

REPLY TO curedic@hotmail.com
mark quest <curedic@http://www.hotmail.com>
denver, co, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 18:45:35 (ZULU) 

I´m a 21 year old member of the Swedish National guards. I´m going to seek for UN-Duty in Bosnia, but i dont think i going to get it..

I also wounders if anyone can give me some good adresses to military chat sites, discussions and forum sites.

Are there anyone who wants to exange e-mail with me?
My interest are Shooting, exersices with my plutoon, be with friends, partying, meet girls.

I´m soon going to get license for hunting and i also aplied fore a permit fore handguns..

Because í am a member of Swedish National Guards i have acces to a assult rifle H&K G3 (AK4) there fore i want some good tips fore legal equipment: Large magasine, scoops and stuff like that..

Every answer will be gladly recived..

Best regards from Mathias
&
Sweden.
Mathias Söderbaum <Wounderbaum@yahoo.com>
Gothenburg, Sweden - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 18:46:37 (ZULU) 

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 19:05:32 (ZULU) 

HURRICANE <WGB@HOTMAIL>
POPLAR, MTR, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 19:44:04 (ZULU) 

We had our winter drill the other weekend, in a lovely remote park. Thick, green grass everywhere, really nice, would have made for great stalking exercise, especially since the ground was COVERED with THOUSANDS and thousands of small, black hopping spiders. Anywhere you looked dozens of the little critters were hopping around. This was a sadistic instructor's dream come true, guaranteed to weed out the arachnophobes... They didn't bother us much, but then were weren't belly-crawling through this spider metropolis.

I teamed with a dog and his handler for an area search, first time working with a dog that could track that way. The dog goes running around the area you want to search, no scent article needed, and if it smells a person freshly in the area it seeks them out. They do it well.

The area we were assigned included searching down steep hillsides to a given elevation. This was a reminder that the GPS is not the greatest tool for determining elevation. My Avocet watch does that much better (it's cheaper and lighter and faster and more accurate and the batteries last longer and, well, you get the idea.)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, February 22, 1999 at 20:54:22 (ZULU) 

Thanks to the other gentelman that gave me the information on the M1D cheek pad, sorry I forgot who it was, (I'm old ya know)!

Depity: Where have you been lately?

To the young man wishing to go to Bosnia, Think long and hard about what you wish for! The elephant is not as pretty to look at as it would sem to be! When I was a lot younger and dumber, (no, not WWI Torsten), I too wished to go to war, I got my wish and stayed for two tours, IT WAS NOT A VACATION AND UNLIKE WHEN WE PLAYED WAR AS CHILDREN, WHEN THE SMOKE CLEARS YOUR FRIENDS DO NOT GET UP AND GO HOME TO MOMMA FOR SUPPER. I'm not trying to lecture here just add some thoughts from an old guy.

Gooch: You ever know a Gunny Rayfield? He thinks he knows of you from Thirty Duce or the Point, anything????

Out here

Gramps <mojoed@bellsouth.net>
USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:04:26 (ZULU) 

Russell: Well you have an exceptional rifle there. I agree with your gunsmith, and I think you should try it with ball ammo at a longer range. Oh Radway Green green spot doesn't count. Try shooting it with some crap ammo loaded with cordite. That is more like what most Tommies carried.

Brian
Portland, ME, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:23:47 (ZULU) 

peteR:
Currently I am being scheduled for a class and long trip the same time as the Storm Mountain Affair, AKA: Hathcock Charity Match. It would have been nice to get up there and see some of the people who use this site.

Bruce G. Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jax., FL, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:32:46 (ZULU) 

Gramps, your post brought the hair on the back of my neck to attention. I have never experienced the misfortune of war in a far away place, but feel that 18 years as a Peace Keeper in a violent city in Calif. has changed me forever. The young man wanting to go to Bosnia, death is not pretty and seeing it is not good for the soul. I have seen to many people, I have had friends say bye for the last time and heard Amassing Grace on the Bag Pipes more than I wish. Bottom line is it sucks to be with and around death, stay a virgin to it as long as possible. Mothers without sons to bug are mothers without a life.

Well enough bad stuff. Looks like I get to go to the Hathcock Shoot. Yeah. Only problem is Fred wants to show me up with his Ruger and if that happens I will never hear the end of it.

The Undude, Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, February 23, 1999 at 00:40:23 (ZULU) 

Recently took part in a speed ev