Not only THAT, I am the designated driver! WTF I said again! Got another 'look' and was advised that I could pay for a cab???? Hello no, I'll stay off the juice rather than pay that bill. So much for watching the John Wayne marathon.
So, before I go up and take my weekly shower, and try to find my suit, I want to wish all the Hawgs a happy, safe and prosperous New Year.
For all you dudes headed overseas, kick some booty for the Boltster. And, if any are still left standing, send em over here so we can have some practice on movers. May your aim be true and your fire support be accurate.
Ho hum, Boltster out until next year!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 00:47:51 (ZULU)
Well that takes care of the field trial!! LOL! We had spoken before and I knew you hunted them hard... looking like another black rifle on the horizon. How are the WSM conversions going?
CDC,
I think Rick and Charles can handle this one.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA USA USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 01:26:28 (ZULU)
Undude - Checking for a contact in your area of A'stan. will you have net access there? And don't worry, you'll still be an ...... :-) one other request man. You can pick up ancient British Enfields over there for next to nothing. Import into the US is a nothing as it is an antique arm. No letters, licenses, nothing. Think of a prisintine 1845 Enfield left by the Brits in their bad days of A'stan taming.
Pat - Your results are similar to ours, we use the 5000.00 plus ones and get the same results as the 450.00 littel ones. Just can't hook it to a computer, GPS, measure angles, heights, widths, multiple distances with distance bewteen and height of object together. But then again who reallyneeds all that stuff. Opps, forget it helps in CAS. :-) We still recommended that the SO community buy off self a bunch for that teams going into the hole. Another big plus is that the little ones are actually little and don't weight this side of heavy.
Cold weather shooting - another reason for jamming and freezing, and I know you hunters know about this, is snow getting into and going through the melt freeze cycle in the locking lug channel. Open bolt in a heavy snow storm and leave it open for just a bit and you have a new style blockage when you close the bolt.
Recon Delta - As much as it grieves me to agree with Ken M., I would go with the KBar. Carried on for way to long and it never failed me. I could chop kindling, dig a cat hole, skin a chicken, hell I might even have been able to stick someone. However, I always favored lopping off their freakin head wihtout ever having to touch the pricks. Reason I carried a slightly bigger machette. :-)
WEll, have a Happy New Year and may peace and harmony be your way, if not then shoot the prick that spoiled it for you.
Besides, my imaginary friend told me that all you guys are not right in the head!
Hold hard Guys
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 02:07:59 (ZULU)
If you look it up you'll see that I was in on the "kill 'em all" thread beginning Sept 12 of 2001 and I've been on it absolutely every time it has come up. It was stupid then and it's stupid now.
If someone posts something crazy and it isn't responded to, it looks like we all buy into it. That includes the "dehumanized-by-the-military, steely-eyed, captain-kung-foo killer" childishness.
Was all that okay with you, or should I ask your permission before I post?
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 03:04:51 (ZULU)
Glow in the dark stuff that fade out in about 12 / 14 years.
The old dial a yield Thermos used Tritium Gas but alas after
The Tritium decayed no Fusion!
So today we use Lithium Hydride a very long lasting solid
that under the infulence of a Fission reaction gives off plenty of Tritium.
Years ago the Ruskies detonated a guestimated 100 Megaton
Hydrogen device in a place called Novia Zemlia ( New Land ).
Above the Artic circle.
A lot of Novia Zemlia evaporated.This stunt got our attention in a hurry!
Steve from New Joisey
Steven Dzupin <sdzupin@optonline.net>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 03:43:58 (ZULU)
Damn, Rick agreed with me. Better bust out all the green gear and be ready at 2359, the end is near;-) S/F...Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 04:06:34 (ZULU)
To those who stand in Harm's way, a special wish for God to watch your 6.
May all your shots be hits!
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 04:48:50 (ZULU)
Thanks a bunch, you guys are always a big help
Happy New Year, everyone!
Andrew T <andrewt@email.arizona.edu>
Tucson, AZ, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 05:16:49 (ZULU)
For the record, I'm not saying anything about being "dehumanized". That's usually a load of bilge from someone who just wants to snivel. Rick, I'll have to agree with you on that one, I'm a rectal orifice because I was born that way, and have had almost five decades to perfect it. I've tried to change, (once) but finally accepted it and revel in it. Helps when I'm dancing with some tweaker/huffer/junkie in an alley on the West Side. Dirty Steve can attest to the fact that I am comfortable being one. Anyway, all wit aside, you be careful over there. Come home safely to all you love, and all you other guys have a Happy New year. Another shift over, I'm going home to Boudicca.....
Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 05:27:39 (ZULU)
"I think Rick and Charles can handle this one."- I was refering to their question of what was said/intended concerning testosterone levels. Exchanges on a public forum that get personal are hard to get over.
"Was all that okay with you, or should I ask your permission before I post?" - I love your irony, considering how much energy you expend jumping others for posting their opnions...
Funny thing is, if you look back I have sent you numerous emails over the years thanking you for your help and your time here on the Roster. Lately though, you spend time making snide personal barbs questioning peoples rights to have, post and discuss their opinions.
You are a valuable contributer to this sight and I am not. I came here to learn and stayed because it feels like home. So I am done with this exchange, if I insulted your pride, feel free to retaliate- the floor is yours. I will NOT respond here. If you want anything else from me, put it in email.
You have mail- no attachments.
I have made contacts, acquaintences and friends here. My thanks to all that have helped me. My apologies to all I have bored. My prayers for everyone of you.
Ken, Marius, Sarge, PeteR- If I am out of line, call in the fire mission and I will lurk. I apologize for the bandwidth.
Later,
Bill Moore
lmalterna@aol.com
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA USA USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 05:47:38 (ZULU)
How can a person do something dehumanizing? If Im a human doing some thing to another human how could something make either one of us less human? This excludes the French of course. Dehumaninzing is a term for the PC crowd. A persons actions can be violent, cruel or both but they can not be dehumanized unless they ar turned in to the French or a monkey.
Mike, stay safe.
Bolt, your suit is probably keeping the dog warm. Be sure and take him a blanket when you get the suit. My mutts knock on the door when they think its time to come in.
I fitted my Bar-Sto barrel today (it was a semi-drop in;I shortened the hood lenght) and function tested it on a cactus that was charging my sheep. Functioned well, now friday I will test for accurracy. I did place 4 nice shots on the cactus at 15 yds. You avid hnter should try shooting these critters. Theys tuffer and more plentifull in these parts.
Dirty Steve, out.
Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 05:51:58 (ZULU)
It's definately gonna be an interesting year. In spite of my posts to the contrary, I know this country has the resources to prevail no matter how bad things get. My beef is our "civilian leadership" may have been spoiled by recent excursions where we just roll over opponents with ease (Mog excepted of course). If we go, and shit hits the fan, I wanna be assured that 1) we're in it thick or thin and 2) we avenge our losses with resolve, not "diplomatic" solutions...I watch trends, and I am not convinced we have the national mind-set in place yet for anything, let alone a two front war. I know our troops are ready. Hell, there's hundreds of PFCs heading to Rick's school in 3-5 years in our divisional units now; and our JAAT capability is something to behold. My concerns are in logistics--if I am gonna be a Log-toad I am gonna be a good one. Once the basic load is shot, who gets the next boatload? And while we are winning - holding-winning, will our resolve hold during the "hold" phase? Or have we convinced ourselves as a nation that any casualties are equal to military disaster?
The army's infinite wisdom in shifting CS/CSS to the reserve was in fact brilliant. It assures small town america's connection to any major effort by default--from day one. A lesson learned from LBJ's little excursion of containment almost four decades ago. When we go in big, we go in with mom, dad, aunt, uncle...and now "support" is a more visceral experience to joe citizen. Not a bad idea really.
As for cold weather operations; there's alot to consider beyond weapons function. Just bagging out in the TAA has its hazards. Your breath's condensation will freeze the bags zipper. A real pain in the ass when you gotta piss, down right deadly during an attack. Sleeping with your commo batteries is an option, but leaking lithium has taken lives during training. And hydration is usually overlooked in the cold, and when you realize it bit you--your water is in solid state uselesness. Now, some units train specifically for these conditions and have fantastic institutional knowledge. If you're in charge of anything, I suggest a quick browse of the CARLL (Center for ARmy Lessons Learned) library. Alot of what you'll find there is in "problem, discussion, solution" format and some is relevant to cold ops. I imagine I'm not alone in sifting through this stuff...
From personal experience--the firing pin was my achilles heel in Alaska. Getting that dry was paramount, and graphite was my choice for lube. It worked to really effin' cold, but ultimately locked up later in the night. I dried the pin, but neglected the encasing bolt channel--and the little oil left prevented ingition at about -70F. Rick's description of locking lugs freezing is also a consideration I never dealt with. One thing suggested, keeping rounds warm in pockets, may cause problems with instant condensation once they are employed in the cold ass air. Kinda like licking a flagpole in Fairbanks. Maybe cold-soaked is better (my bullets were as cold as I was). I'd bet 10th group knows the answer to that one.
And for the record, if we get pasted into a three front corner (my scenario a few days ago)--we make great friends with the russians and use their lift assets pronto. Afterwards, we direct dollars their way.
Joe M.
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 06:14:14 (ZULU)
Get in touch with Geoff (he posts from time to time). He really did a quality job on his stick, with advice from all over the roster.
And Geoff,
Maybe you could do an article on your "lesson learned" from your paint job! Tips and techniques and all that...
Joe M.
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 06:25:25 (ZULU)
Happy New Year..
Dirty Steve, OUt
Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 06:52:43 (ZULU)
Bill Moore: "I love your irony, considering how much energy you expend jumping others for posting their opnions...Lately though, you spend time making snide personal barbs questioning peoples rights to have, post and discuss their opinions."
Maybe so, but I don't see it. A statement like that should be supported with chapter and verse proof. And context is everything. The Tupperware vs 1911 fiasco sounds much different if you start at the beginning and read both sides.
I admit that I do treat with immediate and open contempt the suggestion that the US should exterminate whole populations. If assertions like that are not challenged, we all look like brainless kooks.
Due, no doubt, to a lack of testostrone, I thought it would be better to liberate the Afghans than to incinerate them. The same holds for the Iraquis, Iranians, etc.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 11:17:02 (ZULU)
"I was the 3rd enlisted swine to qualify as a pilot on Trieste."
I guess you could call that at diesel boat.....That ranks with astronaut in my book. Welcome.
Ref: Cold Weather Ops.
For extreme cold a vapor barrier in the sleeping bag is needed. It's not very comfortable but you've got to keep the water vapor from your body from reaching the outside cold where it will condense and then freeze. This process will eventually reduce your sleeping bag into a block of ice and slush. Nothing sucks as bad as ops. in arctic conditions. Survival from the environment takes more work than actually fighting. The wife's uncle is one of the Chosin Few. He talks of walking past Chinese troops that had been force marched into blocking positions the night before and had sweated through their quilted cotton uniforms. They were all dieing from hypothermia and were unable to pull a trigger. The cold will kill you quicker than any enemy. The soldier's load in arctic conditions exceeds the ridiculous. I did an exercise at Ft. Drum years ago with my battalion from the 101st. We were aggressed by a USMC reserve unit. They had tracks and we had snow shoes. It is good to have tracks. We got creamed and were glad when it was over.
Ref: SWAT/Sniper Symposium
Rick....you going this year?
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 11:36:44 (ZULU)
1 Does anyone know a load for a 300 winmag. using a 125gr ballistic
tip and either R15 or 4831sc.
2 Is it possible to get 30cal accelorator heads to load.
Thanks, if Ive done something wrong by asking please let me know and I wont do it again!
keith cutler <keith.cutler2@btopenworld.com>
oundle, cambs, UK - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 13:26:00 (ZULU)
Anyway this is just a heads up. My wish for 2003 is for this puke that is sending out these viruses to open his front door someday soon, and a small hole appear in the front of his shirt.
Anyone need any help with painting a rifle, let me know. I do alot of painting of stuff for drilling rigs, and know alot about what paints work, and work well.
Happy new year.
John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, TX, - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 14:10:03 (ZULU)
If you are referring to sabots in .30 cal., I've tried them with .224 diameter bullets with piss poor results in .308. A waste of powder IMHO. 5 inch "patterns" was the best I got out of a 20" barrel. Some would say that the 20" part was the first problem. :)) Also, if you're not aware, watch the case capacities, to little is as bad as to much occasionally. Depending on powder burn rate, primer considerations and phase of the blue moon. :)))
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 14:42:36 (ZULU)
You have mail. N/A
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 14:50:03 (ZULU)
You have mail. N/A
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 14:54:57 (ZULU)
youse gots mail mang. N/A
Hawgs, Masters, Nobility, Patrons, Rosterfarians and Council memebers,
Happy New Year guys. Best wishes to all for a prosperous and fruitful new year.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 15:31:53 (ZULU)
I've sent emails to the 2 ISPs that were listed as having the infected email pass through them. Got another 2 this morning. Interestingly one was marked with an address that I haven't had any contact with, but the header showed it had come from Bolt! I know you haven't sent it out of malice, Bolt, but it may be worth running a virus check on your PC. The header also said that the message originated from spkndslgw3poole30.spkn.uswest.net ([63.227.100.30] before going through Bolt. This last address is the same as the originator for Marco's suppossed message (it came from there before going to the address I posted the other day that both CDC and I had viruses from).
The other virus I had today had completely different addresses in the headers.
All the Best
Jon
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 15:48:37 (ZULU)
You have email, no attachments. I've sent the details of the message. It maybe worth complaining to the ISP. If enough of us do it they may move on it.
All the Best
Jon
Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 16:05:25 (ZULU)
Man o man, have you checked the prices on 20 round AR10 mags lately? Hell, I thought the M14 mags were expensive. Costs damn near 30 bucks to even have a M14 mag coverted to AR10. I reckon it's like buying a big boat, if you can afford the boat, you can afford the gas.
Did a full virus update and scan last night. No viri were present. Haven't sent an email to any of the Hawgs for a couple of weeks. Complaining to an ISP about this dude/dudes would be like when I complained to my ex's OD/GYN for giving her a diaphram that was too small causing her to get pregnated on our honeymoon. Made me feel good to complain, but didn't mean nothin.
WANT TO BUY.......
Comination 308 bolt/308 semi/223 semi gun. Must function reliably with all available mags and ammo. Must shoot <=.5 moa under all weather conditions, must have rangerfinder for 2000 yards +/- 1', and must be able to self adjust for wind.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 16:08:28 (ZULU)
Kevin (Andy's Dad)
>>>"I was the 3rd enlisted swine to qualify as a pilot on Trieste."
I guess you could call that at diesel boat.....That ranks with astronaut in my book. Welcome.<<<
Well, kinda sorta... The diesels weren't 'onboard' as typical, but we did have diesel-generators to recharge the batteries. I was also on 3 'regular' diesel subs.
As for astronaut, they deal with a 14.7 lb. differential when they go from here to there. At 20k ft. depth, it is 9,000 lb. differential. Not to pat my back or belittle the astronauts, they have a hell of a lot of things to consider such as the gravitational pull from other celistial bodies...
Bolt,
>>>Comination 308 bolt/308 semi/223 semi gun. Must function reliably with all available mags and ammo. Must shoot <=.5 moa under all weather conditions, must have rangerfinder for 2000 yards +/- 1', and must be able to self adjust for wind.<<<
When you find it, I want one TOO!!!
As for the AR10 20 rd. mags, I bought 5 - 20 rounders when I bought the rifle at $50 each (AR10-T). I also have a few M14/M1A USGI mags I collected when I had one of those, that I have not had converted yet. From the sounds of what it costs now, maybe I should get them done before it gets any worse...
I would also like to wish EVERYBODY a Happy, Healthy & SAFE New Year, particularly those who care for us and protect us. I wish everyone of our guys could be home safe with their loved ones.
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:08:54 (ZULU)
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:13:30 (ZULU)
You ever up in CT at the Sub Base in Groton? That's where I work as a firefighter. Just wondering.
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:16:53 (ZULU)
Rob01
>>>Larry, You ever up in CT at the Sub Base in Groton? That's where I work as a firefighter. Just wondering.<<<
Yes, I went through there back in late 1961. DAMN, that's been a loonnggg time! Was also back once in 1962 for torpedo tube certification after a yard period/overhaul in Charleston.
George Gardner - GAPrecision web site - fubar. It says it is loading, loads and stops.
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:55:42 (ZULU)
Fred
Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:57:37 (ZULU)
Joe Mahon,
Do you have a link for the CARLL site? I was up in New England for Christmas. I wondered about several cold / wet / freezing issues as I watched the storm turn from rain, then to freezing rain and hail, and finally snow (with plenty of wind to boot). Saw lots of downed trees and limbs, too. A good reminder to look up regularly as some of those things will leave a mark if they landed on you.
On another subject, I took my M1A and AR-15 to the range a couple of weeks ago to practice with the iron sights. My AR-15 (when using a scope)is more accurate than the M1A, however, with the iron sights the M1A groups were tight while the AR-15 groups weren't groups, they were patterns. Anyone else prefer the M1A irons to the AR? Maybe I need glasses.
Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
ampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 19:04:42 (ZULU)
Larry, maybe I was too subtle, I was refering to the boyancy fill. Wasn't it diesel fuel or something like it?
Ref: MGM Targets
I just got back from the range after shooting up my new MGM IPSC w/hostage target, great material and workmanship. All the M4 did was chip the paint.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 19:45:19 (ZULU)
Just checked out the web site and 10 rounders are less than 1/2 the price of 20's. Seems that these would be good for fixed position/prone with the 20's as an option for moving/ contact breaking. Anyone have an idea on what pouches work for the 10 rounders? Everything I have is designed for 20's.
Happy New Year, those of you travelling east, be careful and come home.
Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
NOVA, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 20:18:00 (ZULU)
It seems that I did a real crappy job composing my prior post about the subject. Since I was the one who brought it up, I'll try and clear up what I was trying to say, and then shut up about it for all time. I sometimes have a difficult time transfering my thoughts to the written word, but judging by mail responses at least a few understood my statements. This goes out to those who didn't, especially Rick and CDC, who voiced their opinions.
Sometimes, when people either don't understand or simply disagree with an idea or a statement, they quickly label it "psychobabble". Let me assure you that dehumanization of the enemy is taught (or was on my watch) to many of the men in our Armed Forces who might be called upon to destroy (possibly) millions at the press of a button, without questioning the order. The guys that are in the missle silos, in the submarines, flying with the nuclear payloads, etc. are all tested and then reinforced as to their ability to carry out their mission.
What do you think Hitler did with the SS? Their enemies were seen as non-human creatures. Why do you think that such a large segment of their population went blindly about their business while an entire race of people were being exterminated? How do you think the Waffen SS troops were able to execute POW's, slaughter Russian peasants, and torture people in the death camps. Did you ever see the propaganda films shown to the German populace from 1933 onward, or the Hitler Youth and SS indoctrination films and literature?
How about the chemical-biological experiments the Japanese performed upon US & Brit prisoners, as well as the population of Manchuria, or the slave labor camps where they starved captured enemy troops to death? The Japanese warrior class were indoctrinated with the belief that all other life forms (other than Japanese) were of a lower form, and therefore expendable.
Granted, we are much, much more subtle in our approach, but it's done just the same. " Look at it as saving your country and your loved ones". "Don't dwell upon the imaginary images of the women and children that you will cause to perish, visualize your friends and family". "Can you put aside your emotions for the sake of your Country?" Also things a bunch less direct than these examples, but effective just the same. Remember those old b&w anti- communist propaganda films that they used to show, even in the elementary schools in the fifties? Replace syphillis and gonoreahha in the old VD training films with Communism and you'll have some idea.
If you don't want to label this dehumanization, then don't. Feel free to call it something else if you will , but don't deny its existance or its use. And yes, it does effect those who have experienced it, at least to some degree. Basically, a little (or a lot) of it rubs off. Some call it being calloused or hardened, or being numbed. Que sera?
One thing for sure, don't anyone EVER think that by my explanation of this that I'm using this as an excuse for the actions or lack of well being on ANYBODY's behalf, including my own! FYI, after a very sucessful career in Gov't. and business I was able to retire very comfortably four years ago at the age of fifty two, still married to a great gal after twenty eight years, and have two terrific grandkids. So please don't jump to any conclusions or read between the lines on my behalf!
I hope that this made my previous post more clear. Oh, and CDC - "It isn't a question of race". It never was. It's a question of survival. Note which group I omitted in the examples that I gave.I can in no way put myself in your position, but you're showing that your heart's on your sleeve.
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 20:27:43 (ZULU)
what generally causes the better groups with an M1A is the longer sight radius. The AR15 has a VERY short sight radius, so even a small mis-alighnment will throw you way off target. Many of the guys go to space guns to lengthen the sight radius on AR's when the service rifle sights get to be too hard to shoot.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 20:29:49 (ZULU)
Well folks it's finally happened! We at SC want all you hogs, hoggettes, dudes, undudes, posters, lurkers, catshooters etc to listen up!!
Clear you calenders for the week-end of June 6-8, 2003! SC is going to have a MATCH at BadLands Tactical Training Facility in Grandfield, Oklahoma! Some of you have asked for this...well you've got it!!!
We couldn't have found a better facility that is about as centered in the U.S. as you can get!!
Some details will follow over the next while but if you think you're going to get any MATCH details....FORGET IT!! Besides this is about all we've decided at this point!! Wanted you folks getting ready!!!
My best advice at this point is...be prepared for anything!!!
Hee, Hee!!
More to follow!!
Sniper Country Staff
Sarge <Sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:04:16 (ZULU)
Just back from the range and headed to bed. Graveyard...has it's advantages. Like NO ONE on the range, but me.
Larry and Kevin,
Trieste used aviation fuel 115/145(purple)for buoyancy. If I remember correctly,it was 66,018 gallons. We DID NOT smoke anywhere near her and she had to be "defumed" for about 72 hours when we brought her back aboard the White Sands (ARD-20).
Amazing I can remember all that shit after damn near thirty years...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:25:55 (ZULU)
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:27:17 (ZULU)
Kevin (Andy's Dad)
Trieste used approx. 86k gallons of HIGH octane AV gas for floatation.
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:28:05 (ZULU)
Now here's a subject I'm somewhat good at. Well, I was complimented on it a few times, anyway. I'll keep this as breif as possible. E-mail me if you have any questions.
First a few questions. Is the stock wood or plastic? Is the metal glossy blued or dull? In what environment will it see the most need for camo?
Stock- The stock will have to prepped to take whatever paint you will use. If it's plastic, clean it with a rag and some alcohol or acetone(don't go crazy with the acetone). Then let it completely dry.
Wood is trickier, if it is varnished, the paint may scratch off easily. If it is not varnished, be sure it wasn't treated with some type of oil (tung/linseed, etc.)because these will eventually bleed through and cause the paint to peel.
Whichever you have, you will need to do a light sanding. This will gave the paint some "traction". Be sure to round off any sharp edges or the paint will migrate away from them. Once sanded, reclean with chosen cleaner and let dry.
Metal- You can prep and paint the gun as a whole or you do it apart. I done mine apart, looks more professional. Prep the metal with cleaner(acetone or lacquer thinner)and let dry. If the metal is glossy, give it a very light sanding(you only want to rough it up, scratches should be barely visible)and clean again thoroughly. If it's dull, just clean it. Let it completely dry.
Paint- Here's the part that requires the most thought. You'll have to pay attention to the instructions on the label and use it in good weather. WEATHER CAN BE A BIG FACTOR. Paint doesn't like cold and it certainly doesn't like moisture. Don't paint on days that are cold, rainy, or humid. Be sure to use a good primer coat that is suitable for metal and plastic/wood. Use several light coats and let dry. Primer color really doesn't matter if you are going to use just spray paints.
The environment in which you will need the camo the most will determine the paint scheme. I like to look at the area I'll be in and any specifics involved. Take the most common color and this will be the base coat. Paint the entire gun with this color. Then find the second most common color and make broad, blending stripes with it. Pick out the third color and use lesser stripes or spots. Be careful not to make a distinct pattern, the colors should blend.
If you will use it in specific areas like bushes, rocks, or trees, paint it like the inside of the bush or the side of the tree or the edge of the rocks where you will be hiding. Just use the technique above to pick out the colors.
I use Testor's Model Master military sprays. They have a big range of colors to chose from and are made for plastic. You can get them from model shops and hobby stores. Otherwise, you'll have to rely on DIY or paint stores.
Taping off- I would tape the trigger mechanism and scope if you want to paint the scope. I removed my scope and painted the rings and bases. Stuff a rag in the receiver,chamber,and magazine. Paint only the exposed portions of the bolt. You can do this with the bolt in the receiver so as not to paint unnessesary parts. DO NOT paint any part of the gun that slides or moves. The paint can become gummy or bind the part.
Sorry for the long post, hope this helps.
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:28:21 (ZULU)
Wes, I think you may remember better than me... However, I don't recall it being purple. I sometimes get confused about the quantity as the old boats carried 186k gals. fuel (problem caused by 'No longer give a shit...'). I still have my enlisted AND officer qualifications notebooks from Trieste, however. When I was on her, she was the Trieste II, you were on her earlier I suspect (Trieste) as you referenced the White Sands. That is SEVERAL years before me. When I first went aboard, we had no 'mother' ship and just threw a tow-line on anything that would drag us to sea. Later, we had the USS Point Loma (a civilian version of an LSD used to replentish the 'Dew Line' when it existed). Towards the end of Trieste, we were the only ones using that particular AV gas octane and it may have contributed to our demise, although we were horribly expensive to operate for many reasons.
Sorry fer tha long post, I know this ain't "Sub Country."
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:41:08 (ZULU)
Thanks for the reply. I know the M1A has a longer sight radius, I just didn't think it would make that big of a difference but apparently it does.
The whole sight picture just seems better on the M1A. I thought it might be that the rear sight was further from my eye but I checked and the distance seems about the same for the M1A and the AR.
Anyway, I'm happy I can still shoot the M1A with irons. There's just something about that rifle I really like. As for the AR, no space gun for me at this time. I do have an IOR 6 X 42 tactical scope with an MP 8 reticle that'll fix that problem as soon as I get a descent mount for it. The IOR scope is sweet; solid, bright optics, good price too. Maybe overkill for the AR though.
Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 22:41:48 (ZULU)
Roger that....can't wait.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 00:19:05 (ZULU)
Dittos on paint not liking bad weather. Moisture will cause paint to blush or go flat. Temps under 50 degrees will cause it to not cure, and "slide off". I had this happen on a building once. What a mess.
Just me $00.02 worth.
John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, TX, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 00:22:56 (ZULU)
Can anyone help please?I cant seem to get the formula straight.
vel:2852,2835,2849,2820,2821,2835.
The use of a hammer usually makes instructions make more sense so I'll go and get one to adjust the calc with while I wait for an answer.
Thanks guys.
out
G.W
Edited after web search,13.46,right?the old hammer trick always fixes the problem,if somethin is fubar you dont have to assemble it,you bin it.
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 01:44:52 (ZULU)
Paint it. When it scrapes off, paint it again. No permanent damage.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 02:02:02 (ZULU)
Many ballistic programs will give all the above.
HDR
HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 03:32:22 (ZULU)
Happy new years you all!
Andrew - Just put tape on what you don't want to paint and have a ball. Don't get technical about it and you will find that if you don't like what you have, then pain it again. Our students will change color scheme a couple times during the course without any real problems. The uglier it looks the better it will probably work. :-)
Ken M. - Actually bud been agree ing wiht a bunch of your posts, just didn't want to admit it. :-)
Steve - Becareful now, my last name is Boucher and that is butcher in French. Lived there for a spell and am third generation. However, do agree with your assessment. :-) As far as the "dehumanization posts" posts go and my getting ralled up over it, I would say it hit a very old nerve and I may have over-reacted. Have only done that a few times in my 55 years. I do know some guys at the SWC that may refute that however. :-)
Kevin (Andy's Dad) - Not this year, got to go to a tracker school with most of the commitee and the ones not going to that will be involved in other "must do schools". Understand a few good speakers this year. Hope none of the silliness of last year. Remember some of those talks? Whew, talk about oddities. :-)
Keith - Be weary of low order detonation or the bullet coming apart halfway to the target. That is a very light bullet for the 300 Win Mag case.
Bolt - Those drunks can be fun to watch. Now I worry about what I did when I was one of the great plastered ones! When you find that weapon, get me one too!
Alan - You are still missing the Dehumanization process. They do not dehumanize the soldier, they attempt to dehumanize the enemy. This makes it easier to kill the enemy. Look again at the SS sceneraio that you used. They dehumanized the Jewish, the Gypsies, the Russians, etc. However, they always showed the SS how human they were and how special and civilized they were. Again, the same holds true during your time. They dehuminaized and demonized the Soviets, the VC, etc. You see, I went through the same thing you did. I came into SF in 1967 and stayed until retirement in 1990. I now work as an instructor at the Special Warfare Center and School. I teach snipers and we do not and have never "dehumanized" the students. We do explain to then the problems they may encounter, but to dehuminize would actually be counter productive in that they must be able to properly chose when to and not to fire. a dehuminized robot would not be able to make that decision worth a crap. If there was/is this process, then I missed it. :-)
Steve - Sight alignment on the AR. Try painting a small whit dot on the sight block below the fron sight post. Place it at a comfortable distance down that you have a natural sight alignment. Now when you shoot, touch your nose to the charging handle and let the white dot settle in the bottom of the rear sight aperature. It should be easy as the mind sees it as a BB resting in the bottom of a pipe. It will be obvious as soon as the BB moves form the bottom of the pipe and it has the side benefit of making you look at the fornt sight. Now remember to check sight alignment as the last check before firing the weapon and your groups should tighten up. What you are doing wiht the M1A is using the hex screw subconsciencely, Or on purpose, and this places that reference point on your AR. Hope this helps.
Well guess that my short post turned into a band burner. Sorry guys. Hope that you all took the first para for what it was intended, a compliment on the variety and competence of the posters on this little web site we call home. :-)
Hold hard Guys
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 03:38:51 (ZULU)
Here's the link:
http://call.army.mil/
My reference to "Carl" is the local varient of lessons learned--"Call" is the one I meant to reference. Either way, the link is the one you want.
Alan,
Ohhhhh! So that was the angle. I missed your point from the get-go, in that dehumanization of the enemy--through proganganda or other means was your intent. Yessir, that goes on. But it is ineffective in the long run. Using slurs to make a monster of your enemy is all fine and well until you meet your enemy face to face and he is us. Heheh. Anyway, I thought we referred to the effect of killing on "our" soul. My point, in either case, is we must take the time to truly understand our enemy...and we must educate our troops accordingly. Propaganda and slogans are a poor substitute for the thorough treatment I am advocating--to know and understand the stakes of action or inaction will give the average Joe a better perspective before he takes a life. Then, it is a process of reconcilliation that ultimately justifies his action. Without this, a young troops who kills another young troop (who looks much more like himself than he ever expected) may spend much of life wondering why. We do not spend any resources on killing as a thought process. Just "how to." Ever wonder why a rifle company's rifles aren't as lethal as you would expect??? Or why the bullet pK is so far out of whack that we may as well issue slingshots???
OK, there are two ways to overcome the societal reluctance to killing another human being. The old way of painting the enemy as an insect (or whatever is fashionable). Or the harder, more cerebral way of depicting the conflict in terms of what may happen if we don't kill the enemy. One works right now, and gets slightly more effective over time with conscripts...while the other takes a helluva initial investment, but will work long term and over many different conflicts with your professional all-volunteer force. How many times will our young'uns buy into the "BG's are cockroaches" as we go from conflict to conflict? "Hey, I thought the Iraquis were cockroaches...no? The NKs are? Damn, I forgot..." Yeah right. We really need to teach the cultural and ideological objectives and goals of potential adversaries to our soldiers, even during peaceful interludes. And we need to focus the POI on why killing one of them isn't such a bad idea. In other words, the "why" of it. We got away from this bigtime when the USSR ceased operations.
Sub country? Didn't those guys invent the Gen II reticle for their periscopes? Hey, it relates. Well, maybe only in my twisted little mind...LOL
CDC,
I'm with ya. If nuking everthing we don't like ever became policy, I'd be out a job! I need the money guys, so listen to Dan when he bags on ya!
Joe M.
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 04:22:49 (ZULU)
The aviation fuel that Trieste used was a very pale purple. Same stuff used in AD-1 Skyraider, etc. Your take on Trieste's demise because of this may be accurate. She decommissioned in '80, so the use of this fuel may have attributed.
I was on Trieste II (DSV-1) from '72-74. Still have my qualification notebook, as well. Our deployment group as call the Integral Operating Unit(IOU) and consisted of Trieste II, The White Sands (ARD-20), and the Apache (ATF-64).
Sorry to turn this into a submarine site, guys, but it's uncommon that there are three of us that crewed that piece of (then) cutting edge technology.
Jacque Cousteau used to give me heartburn, but then I was living the dream.
Semper fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 04:54:12 (ZULU)
Crap, enough of this, and no Alan I do not think in terms of nor dismiss such as Psycobabble. Been around this game for too long.
Hold hard Guys
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 04:55:21 (ZULU)
They hate the bastard up close and personal. They see us as LIBERATORS.
That is the same deal as in A'stan.
These people are the victims of nuts like Kim Il Jong, Sadaam or those glue-sniffers who run Iran.
Our military must kill who they need to kill and not stop until the issue is no longer in question. That will include some sorry assed conscripts who want nothing more than to be left alone to raise their families. Stopping too soon just sets the stage for much more killing later. The examples of Versailles and the end of Gulf War I illustrate this point.
If you let yourself think about it, these people's plight would be very sad. But that is just the way it is. Crying about brute facts is pointless.
But this "nuke all rags and dinks" foolishness makes more enemies than it nullifies.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 05:27:47 (ZULU)
Dehumanization of the enemy is a time honored technique, however some of it may rub off on our own. Not all become married to the Military, although there's nothing wrong with that if it's your choice. Some feel as if they're not part of society when they leave the service after combat. Some become very antisocial. I don't claim to know, but I'll bet there are some damning statistics out there.
Rick, what you said about the SS was exactly what I meant in my post. Go back and re-read it if you've a mind to. Maybe I should go back to school and re-take English Composition at this late date!
Enough of this. I think that we may be on the same page, but are talking circles around each other;-)
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 05:55:17 (ZULU)
"I will defend my country as I will defend my family. That is without reservation, and to my fullest. To do that I must be human and wish to preserve my social group of humans or it becomes meaningless in all forms."
Well said.
jc
jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 06:06:15 (ZULU)
I just found a bunch of the old L81A1, M86, and M82 stocks. (those used on the old sniper rifles) I was wondering if anyone knew if they would work with standard Mauser 98 actions, or do they have to be special ones? I would appreciate any help on this subject.
Mayhem Out!
Mayhem <killare@hotmail.com>
Texas, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 06:42:33 (ZULU)
Hammer on a bolt handle at - frigid????, not a real good idea now that the handles aren't forged integral with the bolt body. You can find ways to warm the rifle up easier than you can reattach the bolt handle.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 11:23:16 (ZULU)
Early 60's was a little before my time as I wasn't born until 1966 LOL Things have probably changed a little but knowing the government, not much. USS Nautilus museum is nice if you're ever in the area. A good history lesson on the sub service in the Navy.
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 11:41:05 (ZULU)
I agree, we are on the same page, it was my inability to read properly that caused the confusion.
JC - Tahnk you.
Bolts coming lose - Yes, have seen it on the range with two seperate weapons that we were trying to get open due to student mischief and lack of attention to detail. The rawhide mallet poped them right off with minimal force. Both were condemned with faulty silver solder jobs that had gaps and bubbles. Sent back and were repaired but in the field that is not an option. :-(
Oh well back into my day job. Got to get ready for the next month of fun and games.
Hold Hard
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 12:22:33 (ZULU)
Sarge, I will pen it in on my calender. I will deffinately be there, unless I can't. At which point I wont. But I should be there.
Dirty Steve, Out
Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 14:45:42 (ZULU)
If cold weather operations increase the chance of the handle seperating from the bolt body, maybe having the bolt modified pre-deployment is the solution.
Jeff Hicks does a bolt mod that prevents the handle from seperating. I've seen one that was modified and it's very nice. I can't see any drawbacks to the mod he does as far as functionality. The one bolt I've seen modified was very well done and for the $40 that Jeff charges it seems like it would save a lot of headaches. I don't know if George or Jerry have a mod available that achieves the same thing.(anyone??)
MedicJim,
is that why you went to autoloaders ;)
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 14:52:50 (ZULU)
Some time ago I asked what would be the best brand/type wire cutters to keep in the kit for cutting through chain link fence. I got answers and lost them. Sorry. I tried a search here but I must be doing something wrong. As I recall the brand was Klein????? Medic Jim can you tell me again?
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 15:06:03 (ZULU)
I truly admire your integrity in action. (ref. your last post)
Bolt handles coming loose when struck - been there, done that (abuse), learned a lesson that will last as long as I live. George reattached my bolt handle and repainted the bolt for the cost of shipping (even though it was my fault)... It appears the solder job letting loose was ...
Wire cutters - Klien linesman pliers... there are two sizes, get the larger... Klien sells replacement handle insulators that are red, rigid plastic... these are a MUST... Cut the 'dipped' coating off the pliers, place the red handles in boiling water and pound them on the pliers...you now have a quality tool. (HOME DEPOT and SEARS handle the Klien line where I live)
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 15:32:42 (ZULU)
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 15:53:46 (ZULU)
She's here and she's a long drink of water @51".
Thanks George. She's a beauty!
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 16:00:17 (ZULU)
He made a valid point about the dehumanization of the enemy trick. Years ago I read a letter from one of the German soldiers involved in putting down the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. He couldn't understand why people as obviously inferior as the "subhumans" even wanted to stay alive.
The Japanese propaganda was just as crazy. They acted on it and you see what it got them.
You've got to be careful not to believe your own bullshit.
It looks like the Shiites (Iran) and the Wahhabis (Saudi Arabia and Al Qaeda) are skirmishing. The mad mullahs in Iran are getting desperate.
We're pulling a grapefruit off the bottom of the pile. Nobody knows where they will land, but I'll bet we land on top.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 16:29:54 (ZULU)
New Jersey has placed a ban on all handguns that do not employ the electronic ID process that makes a pistol uselesss to anyone but it's owner. The law gives three years to comply.
The law goes into effect when and if the technology is invented.
I hear next week there will be a ban on death rays, gauss rifles, death stars and terminator robots (including the liquid metal ones). There will be a grandfather, so get your death rays today!
Also relevant - The Swede's just announced a study which suggests working with stupid people can increase your risk of heart attack.
medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 16:32:34 (ZULU)
Could you email me an update on our "Operation Birthday Card" recipient? That courageous young man stayed in my thoughts/ prayers over the holiday season, and I think I may have missed an update along the way.
Joe M.
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 17:31:54 (ZULU)
Right now their are three ways to get an AR-10 20 round mag.
Option 1 is to have Armalite convert the mags for you. They charge $30 each or $125 for 5 and you have to send in a 20 round mag for conversion. In the past it had to be a USGI or Chineese mag which is where th $70-$80 cost comes from. But as of this past September you can send in the $13 USA mags which are junk instead, and get the USGI quality mag back. So for $43 you have a like new 20 round mad. This program varies slightly with their current marketing. Sometimes it's $5 or so more.
Option 2 is to purchase the Kits. In order to get the kits you have to send in a Shell form an existing mag. The same $13 USA mags work, since the Shells you get back are new, along with a follower and spring. Cost here is about the same.
Option 3 is to use M-14 mags like they are, with the metal follower. You have to cut a hole for the mag catch in the side and shorten up the feed lips. These can be had from Coles in used condition for $31.00 I have dozens of these and they work 100%. The bolt hold open won't function but unless you are in a firefight is of no consequence other than convenience.
Genuine HK mags are over $50 and SR-25 mags are $125 or more. 5 round HS mags are over $50, AI mags are over $70 for the 5 and 10 rounders, and FN's are over $50 for 5 rounds. UNless you go with the FAL's everything is some bucks.
Take Care
Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 18:15:42 (ZULU)
You have mail. N/A
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 19:27:59 (ZULU)
Its off to roll call..
Dirty Steve, Out..
Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
There no such thing as luck, God just loves stupid people..., - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 19:58:22 (ZULU)
You got mail. no attachment
Don
Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 20:47:12 (ZULU)
Pete.
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 20:54:35 (ZULU)
>>>"Untermensch is what the Nazi's called anyone who they thought was inferior."<<< Is one who thinks another to be inferior, if the other turns out to be superior, inferior to the superior?..............;)
Oh yeah, and Klein also makes a hardended cutter grade which costs a few bucks more but will far outlast the standard grade.....9" is the length ya want, they are the biggeruns Jim's talking about.
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 22:23:24 (ZULU)
Ya'll need to read "On Killing" by Dave Grossman. Also, "Men Against Fire" by S.L.A. Marshall (if you haven't already).
As always, there are arguments pro and con on these twos theories.
Happy Hannaka,
Brian
brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 22:39:34 (ZULU)
MarkSmith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 22:46:02 (ZULU)
It is however a fact that human life has a different "worth" in different cultures, as does common decency, respect,honesty, a sense of right and wrong.Propagandists make use of this fact to motivate, scare or threaten. I would suggest that war is a special situation where in bread or in trained reactions and the will to survive take priority over the will to adhere to "human values" , war reduces man to his animal state, and we are all animals when it comes down to it. If this means that one is dehumanised or dehumanises others, so be it.
Pete.
Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 23:14:55 (ZULU)
"Opened in October 1998, http://TheFiringLine.com has gone "dormant" as of 31 December 2002......More than 4 years ago, we challenged firearms owners to prove a point...that internet Discussion Forums need not be "Chat Rooms"; that spirited debate need not include personal attack; that internet exchange need not fall to the level of lowest common denominator. Together, nearly 18,000 of us rose to exceed this challenge. Together, we provided a compendium of information on firearms, tactics, safety and political insight perhaps never before seen in one place. Together, we have educated the novice and inquirer, converted the misled, built a bond between many LEO's and Law Abiding Citizens, raised monies for worthy causes and much more. In short, TFL has truly "raised the bar".
With the closing of TFL, we end a chapter...but not the book. We each now know what can be achieved in an atmosphere of free exchange, where civility, intelligence and articulation are prized and respected. We ask each of our Members to carry that tradition forward to other sites and venues."
They didn't mention SniperCountry as an alternative venue but I see all they said above as referring to SniperCountry also. We are all they were and more. Their loss if they can't see it or admit it. Let's not lose what we got!! Like Master Rick said, this place is unbelievable!
Badlands SC Match -
If a certain gas gun believer gets his shit together in the near future, there may be two of us there with the big gas guns. I'm having the Raffle Rifle from last year restocked and tweaked as we speak.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 00:07:27 (ZULU)
I made it to 55!
01-02-03. Cool.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 00:12:00 (ZULU)
Oh, turn the bullshit meters to the OFF position.
I was standing in a pawn and gun in Killeen (Ft. Hood) Tx.
I'm quoting...........the Russian Dragunov is the finest most precise sniper weapon ever built. You can open the action, pour it full of sand, chamber a round, and shoot an enemy 1800 meters away.
It fires under water.
You can drag in behind a truck,,,,,,,,and it still works.
I'd buy it but Im goin home to Arkansas.......and it's illegal there because you can't own a weapon that shoots further than 500 yards.
End quote.
Dayyyyummmm.......I almost bought it.
Mike inTexas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 00:45:03 (ZULU)
Happy Birthday!! Man,, you is gettin' old ;)) 47 more years and you'll be knockin' on 'Lito's door!!
Mike in Tejas,
The saleman must have gotten his info at the gunshow!!
FatBoy...
10-7-73, young,broke,FAT and stupid. And the misses still has me on double secret probation ;))
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 00:56:21 (ZULU)
Rob01 - Sorry, I've had all of that 'frozen waste land' I can handle! I'm gonna stay down here whur it tain't quite so bad...
Wes, I would suspect that the purple tint to the AV gas used in T-II's floatation was caused by the 'tetra-ethel' (lead) in it. Don't know fer shur... I know several of the divers got some pretty bad 'burns' when they had to swim in 'spillage' (over fill). They would not be allowed to dive for a while to prevent lead poisoning. What were you on T-II, Machinist Mate? Me & you make 2, who's the t'other one?
I was an 'EM.'
1-2-2002 = 55? Try 60 on 11-22-2002. I go in Monday for the SECOND gnu knee...
Sorry 'bout "Sub Country..."
(We used a kind of stadimeter for a range finder)
Larry
DBF
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 01:50:12 (ZULU)
The pliers you are looking for are the Klein D213-9NE, If you need a built in crimper buy the D213-9NECR. They have hardened jaws and will cut chain-link fence like buttter. Cut off the blue dipped handles and put on the red replacement handles, you will be good to go!
TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!! - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 02:15:33 (ZULU)
Jessie Chang, I didn't get any e-mails, or maybe I deleted them due to paranoia. Belay that, I've got too much junk from these jerks, so it can't be paranoia. Please resend, and I'll keep a look out.
Interesting posts lately. Peter talks about muslim fanatic running shoes – jihad hoppers, and doing things with adoptive siblings. For a while now, people have been talking about their ROKs and how to get them off. Now we see Ken and Rick are into not only swinging, but swinging competitions. And of course, John volunteers to “take the big one” with a nice please after words. At least Ken has one thing right, about us getting bombed in Nevada. But then again, it’s around new years eve, what do you expect? With all the talk of mouse guns and rat guns, at least we haven’t hit yet on gerbil guns.
John, I don't crimp on the 223, I think your neck resizing might be a little loose. After all, they only need to hold for 29 rounds max, right?
Mike Miller, congrats on the expenses paid, hopefully, vacation. You know how to contact me if you need anything? If UPS or Fedex will get there, you can count on me to do what I can, and a little more. Doubt you'll need it though. Can I recommend a metal detector? Might need it, I hear the elevators are well hidden over there. God Speed my friend, and don't forget the pictures. Forget the flash though.
Moe, let us know how your stick turns out. I've got good feelings about that and the other thing as well.
Happy new years guys, may peace wring out across the globe, and put Joe out of work. Until then, it's business as usual.
Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:31:58 (ZULU)
He's really trying his mother's patience. I'm more of a Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf man myself, but the whole thing is cracking me up.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:31:58 (ZULU)
Medicjim - Thank you for your kind words, I accept the fact that if I am going to jump someone then I need to accept being wrong as well. Hell, that is the price of being human, being wrong and accepting it.
Moe - Welcome to the discount realm of age and senility. I have found that it makes a great excuse for some of the crap I do off and on. :-)
Dam Mike and I shoot one every once in a while when I am really bored and want the chanllenge of shooting a POS as near ranges. Never knew it shot better the further away the target is posted and I did not know you had to pour sand in it to make it shoot. However, I guess the sand would tighten up the action a mite. :-)
Also, had my shorts pulled up short by a known expert and was informed politely that there is no such thing as a lower order detonation with gun powder as gun powder does not explode. He is quite correct and I stand corrected. I guess this just has not been my month. There will be change today, on command I will open mouth and insert new foot. :-)
Edited because my typing really sucks!
Hold hard guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:35:59 (ZULU)
Wasn't the sales dude.
Was a young E-sumthin spouting his years of wisdom for all to hear whilst standing semi tall in the unearned black beret..............yeah, the Beret thing still grates on me.......some folks had to pay for them with sweat and blood.
Ya'd think this was france.
Mike inTexas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:40:29 (ZULU)
"He was later caught by officers tracking him with helicopters and sniffer dogs."
....."sniffer dogs"...are they different than "biter dogs"....hows aboot "woofer dogs"????
Anyway...figured out the real reason we nuked Japan....WE DIDNT WANT TO FIGHT IN THE COLD!!! Its frickin freezing here!!! Starting to snow....All them soldiers and Marines that fought in the Solomons, Okinawa etc didnt have the freeking cold weather gear for a winter in Japan....jeeze.
Out here.
Goochisan
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:53:03 (ZULU)
Mike,
I was no Ranger, and didn't want to be a Ranger,, but I still hate the black beret thing too. So does my brother, who is Army on an Air Farce base (a little dig). If the Army want to instill espirit de corps, train together, fight toghether, win together. Who gives a shit what your hat looks like?
Rick,
There's no way you can be French. From what I've heard,, you hold your rifles hard ;)) BTW,, you any relation to the Richard Boucher that's one of the National Secuity Advisors? (The guy can really work the crowd on CSPAN 2,, LOL...)
Match dates are in!!! We got 14 weekends, or 4 more than last year. This should be a good season for XTC and Long Range shooting in TN. Will keep you all posted on the what's and where's.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:56:31 (ZULU)
We'll Larry, I guess I'm math challenged. For some reason I thought Kevin had been on board, too. Like you, I was an Electrician's Mate and diver EM2(DV). Swam in the water a lot...nothing like looking down into the inky blackness and wondering what's down there at 16K...Loved the tour and would have stayed Navy enlisted if they could have guaranteed me staying in the deep submergence community.
I do know that we were under orders NOT to vent fuel unless absolutely required. Never picked up the "burns" you described.
Am looking at the June calender and am going to do some research to see what it'll take to get me to Oklahoma. Anyone know of hotel's, etc. in the area? Figure a five day stint...one day on either end for travel and recuperation.
This all dependent on my ability to get the time off and coverage of my duties at OSP...for...COUNT ME IN! Dammit, SOMEONE from the west coast has got to get to one of these things. If for no other reason than to show you we exhist. Won't comment on my shooting ability.
I'm coming to LEARN!
How about we start a roster of possible attendees. Brian, CDC, Gooch-san, Rick B., Stan(I KNOW your lurking), and...?
Perhaps stay at one location(special rates?), group dinner,...etc.
Really want to meet some of you gents. We have warm friendships developed on the list and I'd like to be able to put faces with the names.
On duty tonight...will give this more thought.
Someone needs to let us know a general course of fire, rounds requiremnt, etc. Maps?
Kevin, congrats on the new 6.5 X .284. You're gonna love it...
All for now...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 04:12:50 (ZULU)
The last class I attended at Badlands a couple of friends and I stayed in Wichita Falls, TX. There's a handful of hotel/motels there. It's about 30 miles from Grandfield OK. which is where Badlands is located. There's not much in Grandfield, though Bobby has a pretty big bunk house on the property.
With Badlands you cannot ask for a better group of guys to work with. Steve Suttles is one of the instructors at Badlands and one of the nicest and most helpful teachers I've ever encountered. Steve spent some extra time with me at my first class. Right after I almost flunked the 100 yard test. Steve spent the next hour settling me down and helping me out. An hour later he had me shooting a pretty nice 5 shot group a 1K. I'll never forget the smile on his face. It was truly a rememberable moment for me. Anyway Steve is dealing with some health issues. If any of you are praying men Steve could sure use your thoughts and prayers. He is definitely one of the good guys.
I hope that was OK to post. I really grew fond of the man, though I knew him only for a short time. It was an honor to study under him. And I look forward to many more classes with him.
John Levens
John Levens <SirSaxII@aol.com>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 04:58:13 (ZULU)
Is the Army using the SPR as a spotters rifle? I would think that it makes more sense in that role than an M4 does, if they're gonna use a 5.56mm. BTW - it's nice to be understood;-)
USMC M16A4,
Anybody out there know what the particulars are with this new rifle? I understand that the Corps is going to adopt the A4 for infantry use instead of the M4 as was rumored. Good move IMHO.
AR-15 sight radius,
If you're having trouble, if the front post and target aren't focused together, if you've got weak or ancient eyesight try the B. Jones rear aperature lens system. Legal for SR, and trulr works wonders. If you try it - you'll like it!
CDC,
I'll bet that we come out on top. There'll also be a bunch of bruised fruit and a lot of grapefruit juice down towards the bottom!
Pete L,
As opposed to Ubermensch?
Moe,
Happy Birthday. I wonder if they give Senior discounts at the Bunny Ranch? Maybe group rates? It'd be like one of those buffets that the old folks attend almost daily!
ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 05:33:05 (ZULU)
out
G.W
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 05:45:24 (ZULU)
Email headed your way w/attachment
jc
jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 06:51:12 (ZULU)
I just resned my e-mail. No attachment.
Thanks,
Jessie
Jessie Chang <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 08:33:14 (ZULU)
You can tell how much you're respected around here, when they quietly send ya an email an tell ya your foot is in your mouth instead of tellin everybody on the roster at the same time.
Chris...
Big One??? I resemble that remark!!! I'll get a smaller bushing for the neck sizer. I thought that question had been consumed by EMP. :))
Mike in Texas,
Sometimes it's considered polite to smack the livin shit outta some folks.
Moe ... Happy Birthday Sir, and congratulations.
MedicJim,
I didn't know you could own a handgun in Jersey unless you were a politician or movie star. Now they gotta be electric, huh? Weren't you talkin bout movin awhile back?
Klien pliers,
Both handle covers or not, the pair I bought in 1973 is still in my tool belt and it's been used for more than wire more than once. If you look up "durable" in websters there's a picture of klien pliers.
Mayhem,
Don't know about the stocks but welcome back.
Speakin of welcome back.....where is 'yote bait'???
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 10:58:35 (ZULU)
Klien fence cutter: if you can't find one at the store check the ebay link below. I have two sets, I liked the ones I had at home so well I bought another set for my call-out gear at work.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20767&item=2086040002
Take care!
Rob Opp
Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 11:41:46 (ZULU)
Shit, Rick. I've been using "age" as an excuse for years! Only now it's legit! :-)))
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 13:32:21 (ZULU)
TO ALL LEO, IF SOMEONE TOUCHES YOUR GUN OR HOLSTER HE IS GOING TO TRY TO KILL YOU. ACT IMMEDIATELY AND AS VIOLENTLY AS POSSIBLE. YOU MAY NOT GET A CHANCE TO SLOWLY ESCALATE FORCE!!! THE ONLY THING UNFAIR IN A FIGHT IS LOSING... GOUGE EYES, BITE, USE YOUR ASP CLOSED TO JAB LIKE A KNIFE. WHICH IN MY OPINION CAUSES MORE DAMAGE THAN EXTENDED. BUT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD FIGHT HARD AND TO WIN. WINNING IS THE ONLY REASON TO FIGHT IF NOT LAY DOWN AND DIE. OR FIND ANOTHER LINE OF WORK.
You may check the San Antonio news sites for why this was posted. I'm off to the range..
A P@#$ed, Dirty Steve, OUT..
Edited, Chuck over slept. I got 20 mins for him to get here so I found a link to what I was miffed about.. here it is..
http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=310&xlc=910992&xld=310
Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 13:47:00 (ZULU)
Gooch - Woofer dogs, are they the ones you put next to your stereo or whatever it is called now days. You crack me up man. Oki won't get snow but I have had fires in my fire place when I was stationed there. It can get right cold during the winter.
Chris - HUSH your mouth, me and a Statey being related. I would shoot the sucker to put him and me out of my misery if that was the case. Lets just say that the State Dept and me do not get along. Seems they wanted to put me under Fort Leavenworth during one of my trips to El Salvador in 81. Luckily two senior officers got me out of trouble.
Alan - Yes the SPR is being used as a spotter rifle and as the main weapon depending on mission profile and estimated ranges etc. Using 77gr Black Hills right now due to the fact they fit in the magazine and nominal range ability to 600 meters. Some of the other rounds are better at the longer ranges but do not fit in the mag.
Also the B. Jones Sights ar a miracle in performance for old dudes withe failing eyesight or for guys who have problems shooting with glasses on their peepers. I whole heartedly concur with Alan on this rear sight.
Moe - Happy Birthday, for the second time as my mind is going south I do believe, you are pushing old fart land now, enjoy the bennies. You can meet new friends over and over again. :-0
Well enough for now, Hold Hard Guys
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 13:56:12 (ZULU)
DAMN! Contact me offline, would like to get the complete details of that fight to add to my department's training files.
Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 14:25:34 (ZULU)
Last September Andy and I spent 8 days at Raton, NM (NRA Whittington Center) shooting the first Spirit of America Match. It was great! This year the match will be held August 31 through September 6. It's all known distance stuff out to 1 kiloyard and F-Class is the game for me. It's well run and a great opportunity for quality trigger time. Give it some thought.
It's snowing at about an inch per hour here. The upside is I'll be in Miami all next week. Moe are you going to be around?
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 14:35:31 (ZULU)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3921-2003Jan2.html
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 15:03:57 (ZULU)
I do believe if you check you'll find that the bolt holes are spaced differently enough to not make it worth a conversion along with all the other measurements being off as well. What kind of stock are you looking fro for the Mauser? I've been working with a VZ24 for a while now and have looked at a lot of different stocks.
Murph
John Murphy <x191145@aol.com>
Milford, NH, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 16:06:38 (ZULU)
Sorry guy. I'm off to Boston again. Gonna try to get my mother into a new nursing home that's half the price and twice as nice as where she's at now!
And I'll get to try out my newly acquired "Old Fart's" discounts up there!
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 16:45:51 (ZULU)
I tried to contact you off line. I'm sure your busier than a three legged cat with diarrhea these days. I wanted to ask about status of the false muzzled, Henry rifled, heavy barrel you are cutting for me.
Jim McNabb
"Any society which suppress the Heritage of its conquered minorities, prevents their history, and denies them their symbols, has sewn the seed of its own destruction."
Sir William Wallace, 1281 AD
Jim McNabb <macnab@intergate.com>
The Colony, Texas, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 16:47:14 (ZULU)
Leica vs. other range finders:
All of the cheaper civilian style rangefinders (Bushnell, Nikon, Tasco) are made by the same company. They all have the same guts but are marketed by the different name brands. All of these models use an LCD display. It shows a lot of information but it also reduces optical clarity.
The Leica 1200 has good clear optics and you're not looking through an LCD.
The spring issue of Cabala's has a camouflage neoprene carry case for the Leica models for $12.99. Very Nice! Check it out.
Old Ironsights <scsmith@micron.com>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 18:48:04 (ZULU)
Thanks for the link to that article, it was -> on.
Don
Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 18:53:45 (ZULU)
Godspeed and prayers to those brothers in SA.
Like Bobby, I too, am following the news info to add to the dept. training program. Had an instructor meeting just last night. Weapon retention and constant awareness are big issues.
Unfortunately or not, we are 'downgrading', IMHO, from .45 to .40 :( in the Polymer framed model of Austrian fame. No dept firerarms instructor cadre input requested, just a decision made by outgoing Sheriff "because" thats what he heard other Sheriff's around the state are doing.
At least WI dept. of Justice now actively advocates facial, CNS shot placement training for all recruits.
out
Doug
Deputy Doug <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 19:11:35 (ZULU)
Is Japan a threat to China just because of proximity. I'm no student of Internat'l affairs, but Japan doesn't seem to be much of a military threat from a physical size or economic standpoint.
Rangefinder update...
The Sportsman Guide 2000 yd. model went back to 'em yesterday for a full refund.... nuff said?
Kevin,
You and Andy drive down to Indy and we'll load up the Motorhome with guns and beer and gear. I'm gonna try to make that match, if I don't do ANY of the rest, based soley on your thoughts at SMTC this fall.
Dirty Steve,
Hope your guys are OK. A domestic is bad, but in public, where John Q. Public can get hurt or interfere, is always worse. I bookmarked the paper to follow it.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/expressnews/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=310&xlc=910992
John
John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 19:30:13 (ZULU)
On the shooting the smallest guy at the scene ended up fighting with the 6' 230lbs guy. The officer ended it during grappling by placing the Glock against the BG's head and double tapping. Officer was trapped under the BG when others arrived. They tought he was dead till he said something to the effect of "get this peice of shit off me". More later as details are brought out.
Dirty Steve, Out
Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 19:45:22 (ZULU)
Sounds like a road trip to me........let's start the planning. There is a great spot for RV hook-ups at Raton. E-mail me your phone number.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 20:00:53 (ZULU)
danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
akron, ohio, - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 20:03:34 (ZULU)
Hey guys, hope you had a good one, still have a week of holiday left here, then it's a hop, skip, and jump back across the pond to the UK. Jaeger, I'll get back to you on the steel query, gotta find the email you sent, only about 90 msgs to sort thru on zee hotmail, and it's closin in on beer thirty..
Anyway, thanks for the weather guys, it's been great here..
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
SoDak, - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 20:23:47 (ZULU)
President George W. Bush has signed a bill giving 2,880 acres of federal land, valued at $230 million, to Clark County, Nevada, for construction of the largest public shooting range in America.
The projected $30 million Clark County Sport Shooting Park will include ranges for archery, air guns, pistols, rifles and shotguns as well as trap, skeet and sporting clays. The state’s congressional delegation had supported the bill allocating the land for the project. County officials have said the facility will be modeled after the Ben Avery Shooting Range, a publicly owned and operated facility about 23 miles north of Phoenix and a National Association of Shooting Ranges member range.
----------------------------------------------------------------
OK now why do you guys out west get all the fun places to shoot?
JLU
Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 21:03:29 (ZULU)
Happy Birthday you old varmint. Another eleven years and you'll catch up with me. Gettin' old really sucks; but not nearly as bad as the alternative! ;o)
Larry & Wes,
That 115/145 may have been purple because of the lead; but it also had purple dye in it. This was supposed to keep us stoopid airdales out of trouble. The stuff would definitely cause burns. When I overfilled my Zippo and it got on my leg, I knew it right away. JP-4(jet fuel) was clear and 100/130 avgas was green. A load of the wrong kind of fuel could be fatal.
Put me down for coming to Badlands. I may not shoot; but I would love to meet some of you dudes in person. We might even get 'yote Bait to show up.
Doc
Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The snow-covered Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 21:23:51 (ZULU)
All that is kind of a side point to the article. NK - with China's support - seems willing to sell nukes to any and all.
The Cold War had fewer and more rational actors. Risk was easier to assess. Fanatics with nukes are like teen-age boys with whiskey and car keys.
If it's not one damned thing it's another.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 21:26:36 (ZULU)
Well, here's another one.
http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20030103-95731792.htm
--
MK4
MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 00:03:09 (ZULU)
Have obtained a 700LA BDL Stainless .30-06. Yes, it has the crappy black synthetic stock. VERY few founds fired by original owner (like four)! Deal so good I could not pass up! I think it can make a good platform for a great rifle.
Question 1: Is this a good serial number range? SN# S62233XX
Question 2: Any good experience out there with .308 in a long action?
Question 3: Would it take much to convert bolt to .300WM if rebarreled and rechambered to .300WM?
I know some of you guys would drool at the thought of another grunt joining your 6.5X.284 club, but I am not that dedicated at reloading! Guys, I am open to any ideas and discussion on the potential project!
Bored and snowed in in CT! Lester
PS: 'lito, "commo check!" Have not heard from your OP in a while!
Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:04:56 (ZULU)
Dirty Steve-would appreciate details of incident when available to share with my troops. Contact me OR if'n you want credentials.
Deputy Doug-Glock 22's have had frame rail failures due to QC problem with heat treat. Make sure any/all you receive not subject to Glocks recall.
700 Bolt handle mod-checked out the website on the mod and not to doubt the 'smith's skills, but I think I'd use red Lok-Tite rather than low temp silver solder. If the back of your bolt gets up to the 175F it takes to release that stuff you got major problems!!!!
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:05:42 (ZULU)
Let's have fun with the "might reveal new crimes" aspect of that sentence. Stick a microscope up anybody's fourth point of contact and it might reveal crimes. Anybody ever take a piss outside (indecent exposure)? How about spitting on the sidewalk (disorderly conduct)? Know anyone who lost a movie rental or had one stolen (retail theft)? Did you have a conversation after the answering machine picked up--and fail to tell the other party (wiretap)? I bet you all broke five laws last month, and never knew it.
Since when is "might" probable cause? Hell, when I moved to Massive-two-shits (or taxatuchetts), I had five days to register my handguns. I was so informed several months later of this fact. Would I have served a mandatory 1 year in jail for that? The handguns, BTW, were stored in the arms room...did that make the entire Army an accessory after the fact? heheh.
If the LEOs are forced to take on criminals like (former) self, then who is going after the crack dealers and rapists? You know what would be funny? If those so-called "gun groups" began calling in tips on politicians in the 'hood...now that would make my damn day...
It's all fun and games until yer door gets kicked in.
And that little piece of the constitution called the Bill of Rights becomes your doormat for 8 pairs of jack-boots...(ever seen those MD state police uniforms?). How effin' appropriate. Glad I left that sorry state 22 years ago, and never looked back.
Oh, was I ranting again? Something I just read made me mad as hell...
Joe M.
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:17:02 (ZULU)
If you're not ready to commit to what is clearly the most superior long range "MATCH" caliber out there (and might I add you'd be missing the boat), I'd consider a 284win in 7mm. That way,, you get a caliber that utilizes a bullet with a BC better than that of a 308. You don't have to open the bolt face up. You don't have to modify the feed rails unless you want to mag feed. You can seat the 284 out long enough to utilize the VLD bullets. You're barrel life will be better than with a 6.5 bore. Brass is readily avilable. You don't HAVE to handload, but you'd be missing the boat. When you decide to switch to 6.5x284 you already have all the brass on hand!!
Don't want to modify the feed rail or bevel the bolt face? How's about 6.5-06? Same external ballistics as a 6.5x284 with slightly more powder.
In lue of that, 6.5x55 swede. You get a taste for real 6.5 performance with off the shelf ammo. Fed makes (or used to make) GMM in 6.5 swede.
Of course, you could stick with a 308 but a LA is wasted IMHO. I think you'd be better off with the FagMag, but I may just be biased ;))
I know you said you don't want to handload, but for the extra $350 you'd need to get set up, you'll shoot 5X the rounds per year you do now. Take the plunge mang,,, you know you really want to, or you wouldn't have asked in front of 6.5 shooters ;))
BTW, If you lived in TN the money you'd save from not paying HIGH ASS state taxes and slow removal would buy you several nice donor rifles a year AND a reloading set up.
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:26:33 (ZULU)
My 1SG gave me a case of winchester 147's FMJ for christmas (he got a twenty pack of cigars from about 90 miles south of CONUS).
I guess I'm gonna put my M21 back together and hoist the range flags this weekend. Maybe a little shooting will get me off these rants!
Geoff, if yer not busy--come on up! I've got some 168gr left over and coyotes begging for nirvana.
Deputy Dawg (Doug),
What is a K-town? Kenosha? Was that you on I94 last Saturday that my ECM "made" in the nick of time??? Heheh. I blew by in the battle wagon (expedition) enroute back from a day at the ballet. If'n you are close to Eau Claire or McCoy ever, email me. I always have room on the farm for a fellow shooter! The wife is LEO too--so that's a double open invite!
Joe M.
If they only made a nomex tutu...
Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:35:20 (ZULU)
Dude, I knew I would get heat from you! I am still thinkin' about the 6.5X.284! I have a 7RemMag and a .280 already. I left the Rockchucker with my brother in Georgia when I moved to this overpriced wonderland, but we spent a couple of nights stocking up on M70 .264WM hunting loads first, about 300 to be exact!
I wish this 700 BDL was a short action, not a long action. My real desire is a stainless Mike Rock 5R mated to this stainless receiver chambered in .308 for Fed 168 GMM, then teflon coated.
Has anyone utilized a long action for .308 without problems?
Getting my tax dollars money's worth in snow removal here in CT!
(Until the state layoffs on 1/17/03!)
Les
Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:55:17 (ZULU)
Been using a LA m700 for 308 for about two years, now. Works fine. It started life as a 30-06.
Just remember to push your rounds all the way to the back of the magazine when loading.
Semper-Fi!
Spud
Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:11:53 (ZULU)
Now, to track down a Stainless 5R, recoil lug, trigger, stock........
Les
Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:16:20 (ZULU)
If'n yer gonna tear up a good rifle to build a great rifle,, you might just as well make a copy of an in-service rifle. Why not make an M24? It's a LA 308 with a R5 barrel. You pick up an adjustable HS stock and put a dovetail on the front of the barrel you've pretty much got the look. The floorplate, tigger, base and rings would have to be found, but that shouldn't be too hard ;)) If I'm not mistaken,, George does the authentic markings also. The MkIVM3's are on the emporium all the time. You too could own(built) a little slice of history!!
reloading: 300 rounds of 264winmag? That's almost the full life of a barrel for one of them ;)
FatBoy...
Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:31:00 (ZULU)
Discovery channel 9:00 CST, tonight. "Sniper School"
JLU
Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:31:44 (ZULU)
Just before Christmas the US lost Sergeant Stephen Checo, 504th Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, originally from Elizabeth, New Jersey, in Afghanistan. Germany also lost seven soldiers in a CH-53. Another US first sergeant was shot in the head. He died on the plane to Ramstein, but was revived by a Para-Rescue man. He remains in critical condition.
My unit will deploy another soldier to the sand box. Not unusual for any Army unit, but unusual in the fact that people don't normally expect "Golden Knights", the Army's show skydivers, to deploy direct from the air show circuit to the war zone. You should be proud of the quality of Special Forces, Rangers, and paratroops your country produces.
A dear friend of mine sent me a truly memorable present this Christmas with this card:
"Dave,
A piece of everyone who ever taught me anything about soldiering has made this trip with me. I consider you part of that very august group. I thought Old Glory would be a good way for me to say thanks.
Your friend, Joe."
Packed with the tri-folded flag was this nice paper:
"This American flag, presented to (my name) was flown over the Special Operations Coalition Headquarters,
Kandahar, Afghanistan,
during Operation Enduring Freedom"
24 years of fatigue, frustration, joy, boredom, disgust, panic, exhiliration, and pride came rushing back in that package.
--------
Soldiers from the 82nd are deploying to the sand box with one rack-grade M14 per squad with an ACOG sight. 7.62 rules.
I love this board and the discussions that come up (who'd a thunk three deep-diving submariners, including two Trieste drivers?). Businessmen, cops, soldiers, hunters, researchers, students, pilots, sub drivers, farmers, teachers, musicians, manufacturers, doctors, nurses, optics guys, mathematicians, chemists, metallurgists, water technicians, firemen, HAM operators, paramedics, pharmacists, lawyers, rocket scientists--you name it, they've probably visited the board (in good times and bad). Americans to Brits, Finns, Norges, Germans, Ozzies and Kiwis, even a Russian (briefly).
Someone on the Left Coast asked me why I thought we should be fighting a war with ANYONE. I answered, "Because I didn't invite ANYONE to hijack our planes and fly them into OUR buildings.
To all out there on the board, Best Wishes for the New Year. Thanks for your prayers and hopes for our soldiers in Harm's Way and deploying in the very near future.
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:40:34 (ZULU)
Dave - Worked with 30 of those troopers on Bragg with the M14. Gave classes from marksmanship and weather, through the care and feeding of the M14. Played games out to 600 meters with them in iron sights for their edification. They were quite pleased with hits on target at that range.
Got to go for now, HOld Hard guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville , NC, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 04:39:45 (ZULU)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7574-2003Jan3.html
Intelligent speculation about the state of play in the NK situation:
http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins010303.asp
Starve NK out?
http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley010303.asp
Another grown-up recommends selling nukes to Japan and SK. Japan's economy is about a thousand times larger than NKs. They could afford a thousand times better nukes. Anyone who has read Japan's history takes them little dudes real serious.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-carpenter010303.asp
Watch Taiwan.
MK-4: Yep. The hits just keep on coming.
Ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 04:51:07 (ZULU)
K Town, yes, Kenosha.
Don't worry on the slab. We don't even bat an eye till 15 plus over. Even then, there's always occifers indescretion!
Incoming mail, no attachies.
Mr. Moore, Thanks, Will check into that Glock thing.
out
Deputy Doug
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 05:11:21 (ZULU)
Les
Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 05:14:36 (ZULU)
As long as Les brought up making changes in his stick, I got a question too.
Anyone know if Steyr makes a Badger/MK IV type scope mount rail for the receiver top for their long action like they make for the short actions?
Picked up a nice factory rail for the top of my .376 and would like to put similar on my .30-06.
Strictly hunt weapons but I'd like to get rid of the the Loopy std mounts. Heck, the rail even has 20 moa built into it.
out
Deputy Doug
Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K Town, WI, US of A - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 05:49:12 (ZULU)
If your LA .30-06 Steyr rifle is a SBS, I think the action is drilled and tapped with a pattern that is the same as a Browning A-Bolt LA. I think DD Ross makes the bases for Steyr, not completely sure.
If it is a Professional series, or a Model "M", then you are pretty limited on what is available for you. Choose Warne over Conetrol. Trust me, the Conetrol will let you down.
Great to see another Steyr shooter here!
Les
Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 05:59:54 (ZULU)
Joe, "coyotes begging for nirvana"? Sounds like you're primed for the desert too, although I'm not used to hearing them referred to as coyotes.
Speaking of coyotes, Bill, I know you're out there. You know you're out there. We both know you're being mystically drawn to the uttered word "coyote". If you don't say hi here quick, I'm going to send an e-mail off to you, the kittywhacker, and Bruce, and you're all going to work out discontinued Browning low walls versus Ruger number ones with custom hangers chambered for fireballs. No, hornets. That's a threat to the kittywhacker and the husband of the child bride too.
Chris, LMAO! How do you really feel about it?
Moe, that's one big happy birthday going your way. Maybe too big. We might need a fire chief for that cake LOL
Badlands sounds GOOOOOD. Now all I have to do is figure out the details. First detail first, is this a swinging singles scene, or a couples only event? If it's a couples only event, you guys better make offers quick, or else I'll dance with the blue fishnet nylons shooter LOL.
Texas Mike, Druganov. eh-heh-heh, he said druganov. If I didn't know you better, I'd think you made that up as comic relief. It worked too. Every time I think people really can't be that stupid, one pops up to prove me wrong. So was it more insulting to be around someone that stupid, or wondering if he thought you were stupid enough to believe it?
CDC, if you want, I'll volunteer a CD of Hank III (Junior's junior). In my opinion, it's better. Not for you, but for your wife. "The little whack job" LMAO!
Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 06:00:02 (ZULU)
A call for a Disturbance came out at the Denny’s . A Detective who job is evidence collection was going to the location for dinner (This is assumption based on how things work around here.) Hears the call and lets the dispatcher know he was out as others were dispatched.
The Detective approached them and things calmed down. The DI (detective) then said lets go outside where we can talk about this a way from everyone. As they are walking out, (order of march Bad Guy in front, DI then girlfriend of BG) the Girlfriend says, He has a gun with him. At this point the BG who is on parole for Attempted Murder immediately tunrs without warning and punches the Detctive in the jaw braking the jaw in several places. Lights out he goes down. BG grabs officers weapon. Turns to bitch at GF. DI gets to his feet and can not think straight and begins staggering around. BG sees him up and starts shooting at him. He is grazed in the head and back while stumbling around.
Second officer (O2 from here on out) arrived hears shots, goes in. O2 was shot as he came in the door. Hit in the Jaw and twice in the lower body. He goes down. BG walks over takes gun number two. Turns his attention to GF or is distracted while O2 wakes up and crawls outside. O2 makes it out into the parking lot when two other officers arrive. They get out of the car two check on him. BG steps out and commences shooting. Both officers are shot several times each. BG then approaches one officer, the smallest by the way. BG was now out of ammo, and wants officers gun. BG and wounded officer begin fighting. Officer is out weighed by 100 lbs by the way, he weighs about 125 or so. During the fight tiny officer puts big hole where BG’s brain was. Officer now is pooped with his energy spent or draining onto parkinglot and BG dead laying on top of him.
Another officer arrives and goes to check on him