Sniper Country Duty Roster

January 2003

Well, Dough Lady came home from work and indicated that we WERE going out to the shag dance club tonight and that I have to wear a friggin suit! WTF I said! I got 'the look':((((

Not only THAT, I am the designated driver! WTF I said again! Got another 'look' and was advised that I could pay for a cab???? Hello no, I'll stay off the juice rather than pay that bill. So much for watching the John Wayne marathon.

So, before I go up and take my weekly shower, and try to find my suit, I want to wish all the Hawgs a happy, safe and prosperous New Year.

For all you dudes headed overseas, kick some booty for the Boltster. And, if any are still left standing, send em over here so we can have some practice on movers. May your aim be true and your fire support be accurate.

Ho hum, Boltster out until next year!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 00:47:51 (ZULU)


  Well that takes care of the field trial!! LOL! We had spoken before and I knew you hunted them hard... looking like another black rifle on the horizon. How are the WSM conversions going?


 I think Rick and Charles can handle this one.  

Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA USA USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 01:26:28 (ZULU)

Mr. Hunt - I will check with my Urologist or whatever.

Undude - Checking for a contact in your area of A'stan.  will you have net access there?  And don't worry, you'll still be an ...... :-)  one other request man.  You can pick up ancient British Enfields over there for next to nothing.  Import into the US is a nothing as it is an antique arm.  No letters, licenses, nothing.  Think of a prisintine 1845 Enfield left by the Brits in their bad days of A'stan taming.

Pat - Your results are similar to ours, we use the 5000.00 plus ones and get the same results as the 450.00 littel ones.  Just can't hook it to a computer, GPS, measure angles, heights, widths, multiple distances with distance bewteen and height of object together.  But then again who reallyneeds all that stuff.  Opps, forget it helps in CAS.  :-)  We still recommended that the SO community buy off self a bunch for that teams going into the hole.  Another big plus is that the little ones are actually little and don't weight this side of heavy.

Cold weather shooting - another reason for jamming and freezing, and I know you hunters know about this, is snow getting into and going through the melt freeze cycle in the locking lug channel.  Open bolt in a heavy snow storm and leave it open for just a bit and you have a new style blockage when you close the bolt.

Recon Delta - As much as it grieves me to agree with Ken M., I would go with the KBar.  Carried on for way to long and it never failed me.  I could chop kindling, dig a cat hole, skin a chicken, hell I might even have been able to stick someone.  However, I always favored lopping off their freakin head wihtout ever having to touch the pricks.  Reason I carried a slightly bigger machette.  :-)

WEll, have a Happy New Year and may peace and harmony be your way, if not then shoot the prick that spoiled it for you.

Besides, my imaginary friend told me that all you guys are not right in the head!

Hold hard Guys


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 02:07:59 (ZULU)

Bill Moore:   So that's what you think, huh?  You have no idea how I value that type of input.  

If you look it up you'll see that I was in on the "kill 'em all" thread beginning Sept 12 of 2001 and I've been on it absolutely every time it has come up.  It was stupid then and it's stupid now.  

If someone posts something crazy and it isn't responded to, it looks like we all buy into it.  That includes the "dehumanized-by-the-military, steely-eyed, captain-kung-foo killer" childishness.

Was all that okay with you, or should I ask your permission before I post?

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 03:04:51 (ZULU)

Nay,Nay Ken,Tritium is now useful in Night Sights.

Glow in the dark stuff that fade out in about 12 / 14 years.

The old dial a yield Thermos used Tritium Gas but alas after

The Tritium decayed no Fusion!

So today we use Lithium Hydride a very long lasting solid

that under the infulence of a Fission reaction gives off plenty of Tritium.

Years ago the Ruskies detonated a guestimated 100 Megaton

Hydrogen device in a place called Novia Zemlia ( New Land ).

Above the Artic circle.

A lot of Novia Zemlia evaporated.This stunt got our attention in a hurry!

Steve from New Joisey

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 03:43:58 (ZULU)

Steve, tritium is used to boost the primary yield through the generation of extra neutrons causing more fast fission.  It is injected into the core of the primary.  This is called boosting.  It can increase yield by 100%.  LiH is used for the creation of true thermonuclear designs as part of the secondary.  It requires radiation compression.  Yes, this is the same tritium used in night sights. Decays at 5.5% per year(looked it up).

Damn, Rick agreed with me.  Better bust out all the green gear and be ready at 2359, the end is near;-)  S/F...Ken M    

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 04:06:34 (ZULU)

Happy New Year, one and all.  

To those who stand in Harm's way, a special wish for God to watch your 6.  

May all your shots be hits!


BMG Mike <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 04:48:50 (ZULU)

I had some questions about painting my rifle (remington 700). I looked in the hot tips/cold shots section but couldn't find exactly what I wanted to know. If I wanted to paint the entire rifle, how do I block off certain areas, and what exactly do I need to block off? trigger, muzzle, sights, bolt?

Thanks a bunch, you guys are always a big help

Happy New Year, everyone!

Andrew T <>
Tucson, AZ, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 05:16:49 (ZULU)

CDC, how am I supposed to develop my sarcastic abilities if I don't practice them?  Can't do it around the house, Boudicca collects sharp objects. Besides, if you can't stand when it's directed at someone else, well, sorry.  I've heard sharper exchanges here on the DR.

For the record, I'm not saying anything about being "dehumanized". That's usually a load of bilge from someone who just wants to snivel. Rick, I'll have to agree with you on that one, I'm a rectal orifice because I was born that way, and have had almost five decades to perfect it.  I've tried to change, (once) but finally accepted it and revel in it.  Helps when I'm dancing with some tweaker/huffer/junkie in an alley on the West Side.  Dirty Steve can attest to the fact that I am comfortable being one.  Anyway, all wit aside, you be careful over there. Come home safely to all you love, and all you other guys have a Happy New year.  Another shift over, I'm going home to Boudicca.....

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 05:27:39 (ZULU)


 "I think Rick and Charles can handle this one."- I was refering to their question of what was said/intended concerning testosterone levels. Exchanges on a public forum that get personal are hard to get over.

     "Was all that okay with you, or should I ask your permission before I post?" - I love your irony, considering how much energy you expend jumping others for posting their opnions...

 Funny thing is, if you look back I have sent you numerous emails over the years thanking you for your help and your time here on the Roster. Lately though, you spend time making snide personal barbs questioning peoples rights to have, post and discuss their opinions.

 You are a valuable contributer to this sight and I am not. I came here to learn and stayed because it feels like home. So I am done with this exchange, if I insulted your pride, feel free to retaliate- the floor is yours. I will NOT respond here. If you want anything else from me, put it in email.

 You have mail- no attachments.

 I have made contacts, acquaintences and friends here. My thanks to all that have helped me. My apologies to all I have bored. My prayers for everyone of you.

Ken, Marius, Sarge, PeteR- If I am out of line, call in the fire mission and I will lurk. I apologize for the bandwidth.


     Bill Moore


Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA USA USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 05:47:38 (ZULU)

Hey Gents, I can say Chuck isn't a perfect A-hole. But he is working on it.... If you all ever see a guy that looks like G Gordon Liddy but 15 yrs or so his junior it will be Chuck. Just what ever you do don't ask him to get in touch with his feminine side...

How can a person do something dehumanizing? If Im a human doing some thing to another human how could something make either one of us less human? This excludes the French of course. Dehumaninzing is a term for the PC crowd. A persons actions can be violent, cruel or both but they can not be dehumanized unless they ar turned in to the French or a monkey.

Mike, stay safe.

Bolt, your suit is probably keeping the dog warm. Be sure and take him a blanket when you get the suit. My mutts knock on the door when they think its time to come in.

I fitted my Bar-Sto barrel today (it was a semi-drop in;I shortened the hood lenght) and function tested it on a cactus that was charging my sheep. Functioned well, now friday I will test for accurracy. I did place 4 nice shots on the cactus at 15 yds. You avid hnter should try shooting these critters. Theys tuffer and more plentifull in these parts.

Dirty Steve, out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 05:51:58 (ZULU)

Happy New Year Hawgs!

 It's definately gonna be an interesting year.  In spite of my posts to the contrary, I know this country has the resources to prevail no matter how bad things get.  My beef is our "civilian leadership" may have been spoiled by recent excursions where we just roll over opponents with ease (Mog excepted of course).  If we go, and shit hits the fan, I wanna be assured that 1) we're in it thick or thin and 2) we avenge our losses with resolve, not "diplomatic" solutions...I watch trends, and I am not convinced we have the national mind-set in place yet for anything, let alone a two front war.  I know our troops are ready.  Hell, there's hundreds of PFCs heading to Rick's school in 3-5 years in our divisional units now; and our JAAT capability is something to behold.  My concerns are in logistics--if I am gonna be a Log-toad I am gonna be a good one.  Once the basic load is shot, who gets the next boatload?  And while we are winning - holding-winning, will our resolve hold during the "hold" phase?  Or have we convinced ourselves as a nation that any casualties are equal to military disaster?  

The army's infinite wisdom in shifting CS/CSS to the reserve was in fact brilliant.  It assures small town america's connection to any major effort by default--from day one.  A lesson learned from LBJ's little excursion of containment almost four decades ago.  When we go in big, we go in with mom, dad, aunt, uncle...and now "support" is a more visceral experience to joe citizen.  Not a bad idea really.

As for cold weather operations; there's alot to consider beyond weapons function.  Just bagging out in the TAA has its hazards.  Your breath's condensation will freeze the bags zipper.  A real pain in the ass when you gotta piss, down right deadly during an attack.  Sleeping with your commo batteries is an option, but leaking lithium has taken lives during training.  And hydration is usually overlooked in the cold, and when you realize it bit you--your water is in solid state uselesness.  Now, some units train specifically for these conditions and have fantastic institutional knowledge.  If you're in charge of anything, I suggest a quick browse of the CARLL (Center for ARmy Lessons Learned) library.  Alot of what you'll find there is in "problem, discussion, solution" format and some is relevant to cold ops.  I imagine I'm not alone in sifting through this stuff...

From personal experience--the firing pin was my achilles heel in Alaska.  Getting that dry was paramount, and graphite was my choice for lube.  It worked to really effin' cold, but ultimately locked up later in the night.  I dried the pin, but neglected the encasing bolt channel--and the little oil left prevented ingition at about -70F.  Rick's description of locking lugs freezing is also a consideration I never dealt with.  One thing suggested, keeping rounds warm in pockets, may cause problems with instant condensation once they are employed in the cold ass air.  Kinda like licking a flagpole in Fairbanks.  Maybe cold-soaked is better (my bullets were as cold as I was).  I'd bet 10th group knows the answer to that one.  

And for the record, if we get pasted into a three front corner (my scenario a few days ago)--we make great friends with the russians and use their lift assets pronto.  Afterwards, we direct dollars their way.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 06:14:14 (ZULU)

Andrew T,

 Get in touch with Geoff (he posts from time to time).  He really did a quality job on his stick, with advice from all over the roster.  

And Geoff,

Maybe you could do an article on your "lesson learned" from your paint job!  Tips and techniques and all that...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 06:25:25 (ZULU)

Joe, We could Moly coat everything... I couldn't resist..

Happy New Year..

Dirty Steve, OUt

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 06:52:43 (ZULU)


Bill Moore:  "I love your irony, considering how much energy you expend jumping others for posting their opnions...Lately though, you spend time making snide personal barbs questioning peoples rights to have, post and discuss their opinions."

Maybe so, but I don't see it.  A statement like that should be supported with chapter and verse proof.  And context is everything.  The Tupperware vs 1911 fiasco sounds much different if you start at the beginning and read both sides.  

I admit that I do treat with immediate and open contempt the suggestion that the US should exterminate whole populations.  If assertions like that are not challenged, we all look like brainless kooks.

Due, no doubt, to a lack of testostrone, I thought it would be better to liberate the Afghans than to incinerate them.  The same holds for the Iraquis, Iranians, etc.  

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 11:17:02 (ZULU)

Larry wrote;

"I was the 3rd enlisted swine to qualify as a pilot on Trieste."

I guess you could call that at diesel boat.....That ranks with astronaut in my book.  Welcome.

Ref: Cold Weather Ops.

For extreme cold a vapor barrier in the sleeping bag is needed.  It's not very comfortable but you've got to keep the water vapor from your body from reaching the outside cold where it will condense and then freeze.  This process will eventually reduce your sleeping bag into a block of ice and slush.  Nothing sucks as bad as ops. in arctic conditions.  Survival from the environment takes more work than actually fighting.  The wife's uncle is one of the Chosin Few.  He talks of walking past Chinese troops that had been force marched into blocking positions the night before and had sweated through their quilted cotton uniforms.  They were all dieing from hypothermia and were unable to pull a trigger.  The cold will kill you quicker than any enemy.  The soldier's load in arctic conditions exceeds the ridiculous.  I did an exercise at Ft. Drum years ago with my battalion from the 101st.  We were aggressed by a USMC reserve unit.  They had tracks and we had snow shoes.  It is good to have tracks.  We got creamed and were glad when it was over.

Ref: SWAT/Sniper Symposium going this year?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 11:36:44 (ZULU)

Hi, and seasons greetings to all of you from a new guy.Can anyone help me with the following please:

1 Does anyone know a load for a 300 winmag. using a 125gr ballistic

tip and either R15 or 4831sc.

2 Is it possible to get 30cal accelorator heads to load.

Thanks, if Ive done something wrong by asking please let me know and I wont do it again!

keith cutler <>
oundle, cambs, UK - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 13:26:00 (ZULU)

Hey all, I just got an email from Sinister Dave, in my mailbox.  It was a virus.  I don't post here often, but occasionally I do send some of you an email with answers and comments.  

Anyway this is just a heads up.  My wish for 2003 is for this puke that is sending out these viruses to open his front door someday soon, and a small hole appear in the front of his shirt.

Anyone need any help with painting a rifle, let me know.  I do alot of painting of stuff for drilling rigs, and know alot about what paints work, and work well.

Happy new year.

John <>
Liberty, TX, - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 14:10:03 (ZULU)

Keith C.

If you are referring to sabots in .30 cal., I've tried them with .224 diameter bullets with piss poor results in .308. A waste of powder IMHO. 5 inch "patterns" was the best I got out of a 20" barrel. Some would say that the 20" part was the first problem. :)) Also, if you're not aware, watch the case capacities, to little is as bad as to much occasionally. Depending on powder burn rate, primer considerations and phase of the blue moon. :)))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 14:42:36 (ZULU)

Bill M.

You have mail. N/A


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 14:50:03 (ZULU)

Rick B.

You have mail. N/A


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 14:54:57 (ZULU)


youse gots mail mang. N/A

Hawgs, Masters, Nobility, Patrons, Rosterfarians and Council memebers,

Happy New Year guys.  Best wishes to all for a prosperous and fruitful new year.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 15:31:53 (ZULU)

Happy New Year Roster.

I've sent emails to the 2 ISPs that were listed as having the infected  email pass through them.  Got another 2 this morning.  Interestingly one was marked with an address that I haven't had any contact with, but the header showed it had come from Bolt!  I know you haven't sent it out of malice, Bolt, but it may be worth running a virus check on your PC.  The header also said that the message originated from ([] before going through Bolt.  This last address is the same as the originator for Marco's suppossed message (it came from there before going to the address I posted the other day that both CDC and I had viruses from).

The other virus I had today had completely different addresses in the headers.

All the Best


Jon Beardsley <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 15:48:37 (ZULU)


You have email, no attachments.  I've sent the details of the message.  It maybe worth complaining to the ISP.  If enough of us do it they may move on it.

All the Best


Jon Beardsley <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 16:05:25 (ZULU)

It sucks being the only sober person in an ocean of drunks. However, it takes people watching to new heights. There was one decent looking drunk gal in a long red dress with slits all the way up to her ass......she was popular....nuff said. I managed to keep from getting Dough Lady's knuckles up side the head, amazing. At least nobody threw up on my long lost suit coat, tie came off real quick. Dough Lady said "you'll be the only one there without a suit". Yeah right........... No hang over this morning, which is a good thing.

Man o man, have you checked the prices on 20 round AR10 mags lately? Hell, I thought the M14 mags were expensive. Costs damn near 30 bucks to even have a M14 mag coverted to AR10. I reckon it's like buying a big boat, if you can afford the boat, you can afford the gas.

Did a full virus update and scan last night. No viri were present. Haven't sent an email to any of the Hawgs for a couple of weeks. Complaining to an ISP about this dude/dudes would be like when I complained to my ex's OD/GYN for giving her a diaphram that was too small causing her to get pregnated on our honeymoon. Made me feel good to complain, but didn't mean nothin.

WANT TO BUY.......

Comination 308 bolt/308 semi/223 semi gun. Must function reliably with all available mags and ammo. Must shoot <=.5 moa under all weather conditions, must have rangerfinder for 2000 yards +/- 1', and must be able to self adjust for wind.

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 16:08:28 (ZULU)

Kevin (Andy's Dad)

>>>"I was the 3rd enlisted swine to qualify as a pilot on Trieste."

I guess you could call that at diesel boat.....That ranks with astronaut in my book. Welcome.<<<

Well, kinda sorta...  The diesels weren't 'onboard' as typical, but we did have diesel-generators to recharge the batteries.  I was also on 3 'regular' diesel subs.

As for astronaut, they deal with a 14.7 lb. differential when they go from here to there.  At 20k ft. depth, it is 9,000 lb. differential.  Not to pat my back or belittle the astronauts, they have a hell of a lot of things to consider such as the gravitational pull from other celistial bodies...


>>>Comination 308 bolt/308 semi/223 semi gun. Must function reliably with all available mags and ammo. Must shoot <=.5 moa under all weather conditions, must have rangerfinder for 2000 yards +/- 1', and must be able to self adjust for wind.<<<

When you find it, I want one TOO!!!

As for the AR10 20 rd. mags, I bought 5 - 20 rounders when I bought the rifle at $50 each (AR10-T).  I also have a few M14/M1A USGI mags I collected when I had one of those, that I have not had converted yet.  From the sounds of what it costs now, maybe I should get them done before it gets any worse...

I would also like to wish EVERYBODY a Happy, Healthy & SAFE New Year, particularly those who care for us and protect us.  I wish everyone of our guys could be home safe with their loved ones.


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:08:54 (ZULU)

I've gotten the virus files myself from George Gardner's address. I wrote him about it but he didn't answer my first e-mail and deleted my second. So George if you're reading this you need to check your computer because virus e-mails are coming from it.

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:13:30 (ZULU)


You ever up in CT at the Sub Base in Groton? That's where I work as a  firefighter. Just wondering.

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:16:53 (ZULU)


>>>Larry, You ever up in CT at the Sub Base in Groton? That's where I work as a  firefighter. Just wondering.<<<

Yes, I went through there back in late 1961.  DAMN, that's been a loonnggg time!  Was also back once in 1962 for torpedo tube certification after a yard period/overhaul in Charleston.

George Gardner - GAPrecision web site - fubar.  It says it is loading, loads and stops.


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:55:42 (ZULU)

Joe, I lived in Fairbanks 86-87, near Ft. Wainwright, one of my foster boys is stationed their now. When were you there?


Fred Hartman <>
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 18:57:37 (ZULU)

On the AR-10 mags, I've read that M14 / M1A mags can be "converted" simply by cutting the hole in the side.  The bolt won't lock open after the last shot, though.  I haven't tried this yet, but it's on my short list of things to do.

Joe Mahon,

Do you have a link for the CARLL site?  I was up in New England for Christmas.  I wondered about several cold / wet / freezing issues as I watched the storm turn from rain, then to freezing rain and hail, and finally snow (with plenty of wind to boot).  Saw lots of downed trees and limbs, too.  A good reminder to look up regularly as some of those things will leave a mark if they landed on you.

On another subject, I took my M1A and AR-15 to the range a couple of weeks ago to practice with the iron sights.  My AR-15 (when using a scope)is more accurate than the M1A, however, with the iron sights the M1A groups were tight while the AR-15 groups weren't groups, they were patterns.  Anyone else prefer the M1A irons to the AR?  Maybe I need glasses.

Steve <>
ampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 19:04:42 (ZULU)

Ref: The Trieste

Larry, maybe I was too subtle, I was refering to the boyancy fill.  Wasn't it diesel fuel or something like it?

Ref: MGM Targets

I just got back from the range after shooting up my new MGM IPSC w/hostage target, great material and workmanship.  All the M4 did was chip the paint.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 19:45:19 (ZULU)

Re : AR-10 Mags

Just checked out the web site and 10 rounders are less than 1/2 the price of 20's.  Seems that these would be good for fixed position/prone with the 20's as an option for moving/ contact breaking.  Anyone have an idea on what pouches work for the 10 rounders?  Everything I have is designed for 20's.

Happy New Year, those of you travelling east, be careful and come home.

Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 20:18:00 (ZULU)


              It seems that I did a real crappy job composing my prior post about the subject. Since I was the one who brought it up, I'll try and clear up what I was trying to say, and then shut up about it for all time. I sometimes have a difficult time transfering my thoughts to the written word, but judging by mail responses at least a few understood my statements. This goes out to those who didn't, especially Rick and CDC, who voiced their opinions.

               Sometimes, when people either don't understand or simply disagree with an idea or a statement, they quickly label it "psychobabble". Let me assure you that dehumanization of the enemy is taught (or was on my watch) to many of the men in our Armed Forces who might be called upon to destroy (possibly) millions at the press of a button, without questioning the order. The guys that are in the missle silos, in the submarines, flying with the nuclear payloads, etc. are all tested and then reinforced as to their ability to carry out their mission.

               What do you think Hitler did with the SS? Their enemies were seen as non-human creatures. Why do you think that such a large segment of their population went blindly about their business while an entire race of people were being exterminated? How do you think the Waffen SS troops were able to execute POW's, slaughter Russian peasants, and torture people in the death camps. Did you ever see the propaganda films shown to the German populace from 1933 onward, or the Hitler Youth and SS indoctrination films and literature?

               How about the chemical-biological experiments the Japanese performed upon US & Brit prisoners, as well as the population of Manchuria, or the slave labor camps where they starved captured enemy troops to death? The Japanese warrior class were indoctrinated with the belief that all other life forms (other than Japanese) were of a lower form, and therefore expendable.

                Granted, we are much, much more subtle in our approach, but it's done just the same. " Look at it as saving your country and your loved ones". "Don't dwell upon the imaginary images of the women and children that you will cause to perish, visualize your friends and family". "Can you put aside your emotions for the sake of your Country?" Also things a bunch less direct than these examples, but effective just the same. Remember those old b&w anti- communist propaganda films that they used to show, even in the elementary schools in the fifties? Replace syphillis and gonoreahha in the old VD training films with Communism and you'll have some idea.

                If you don't want to label this dehumanization, then don't. Feel free to call it something else if you will , but don't deny its existance or its use. And yes, it does effect those who have experienced it, at least to some degree. Basically, a little (or a lot) of it rubs off. Some call it being calloused or hardened, or being numbed. Que sera?

               One thing for sure, don't anyone EVER think that by my explanation of this that I'm using this as an excuse for the actions or lack of well being on ANYBODY's behalf, including my own! FYI, after a very sucessful career in Gov't. and business I was able to retire very comfortably four years ago at the age of fifty two, still married to a great gal after twenty eight years, and have two terrific grandkids. So please don't jump to any conclusions or read between the lines on my behalf!

               I hope that this made my previous post more clear. Oh, and CDC - "It isn't a question of race". It never was. It's a question of survival. Note which group I omitted in the examples that I gave.I can in no way put myself in your position, but you're showing that your heart's on your sleeve.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 20:27:43 (ZULU)


what generally causes the better groups with an M1A is the longer sight radius.  The AR15 has a VERY short sight radius, so even a small mis-alighnment will throw you way off target.  Many of the guys go to space guns to lengthen the sight radius on AR's when the service rifle sights get to be too hard to shoot.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 20:29:49 (ZULU)


Well folks it's finally happened! We at SC want all you hogs, hoggettes, dudes, undudes, posters, lurkers, catshooters etc to listen up!!

Clear you calenders for the week-end of June 6-8, 2003! SC is going to have a MATCH at BadLands Tactical Training Facility in Grandfield, Oklahoma! Some of you have asked for this...well you've got it!!!

We couldn't have found a better facility that is about as centered in the U.S. as you can get!!

Some details will follow over the next while but if you think you're going to get any MATCH details....FORGET IT!! Besides this is about all we've decided at this point!! Wanted you folks getting ready!!!

My best advice at this point prepared for anything!!!

Hee, Hee!!

More to follow!!

Sniper Country Staff

Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:04:16 (ZULU)


Just back from the range and headed to bed. Graveyard...has it's advantages. Like NO ONE on the range, but me.

Larry and Kevin,

Trieste used aviation fuel 115/145(purple)for buoyancy. If I remember correctly,it was 66,018 gallons. We DID NOT smoke anywhere near her and she had to be "defumed" for about 72 hours when we brought her back aboard the White Sands (ARD-20).

Amazing I can remember all that shit after damn near thirty years...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:25:55 (ZULU)

D-day.  How appropriate.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:27:17 (ZULU)

Kevin (Andy's Dad)

Trieste used approx. 86k gallons of HIGH octane AV gas for floatation.


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:28:05 (ZULU)

Andrew, Rifle Painting;

    Now here's a subject I'm somewhat good at. Well, I was complimented on it a few times, anyway. I'll keep this as breif as possible. E-mail me if you have any questions.

    First a few questions. Is the stock wood or plastic? Is the metal glossy blued or dull? In what environment will it see the most need for camo?

   Stock- The stock will have to prepped to take whatever paint you will use. If it's plastic, clean it with a rag and some alcohol or acetone(don't go crazy with the acetone). Then let it completely dry.

 Wood is trickier, if it is varnished, the paint may scratch off easily. If it is not varnished, be sure it wasn't treated with some type of oil (tung/linseed, etc.)because these will eventually bleed through and cause the paint to peel.

 Whichever you have, you will need to do a light sanding. This will gave the paint some "traction". Be sure to round off any sharp edges or the paint will migrate away from them. Once sanded, reclean with chosen cleaner and let dry.

  Metal- You can prep and paint the gun as a whole or you do it apart. I done mine apart, looks more professional. Prep the metal with cleaner(acetone or lacquer thinner)and let dry. If the metal is glossy, give it a very light sanding(you only want to rough it up, scratches should be barely visible)and clean again thoroughly. If it's dull, just clean it. Let it completely dry.

 Paint- Here's the part that requires the most thought. You'll have to pay attention to the instructions on the label and use it in good weather. WEATHER CAN BE A BIG FACTOR. Paint doesn't like cold and it certainly doesn't like moisture. Don't paint on days that are cold, rainy, or humid. Be sure to use a good primer coat that is suitable for metal and plastic/wood. Use several light coats and let dry. Primer color really doesn't matter if you are going to use just spray paints.

 The environment in which you will need the camo the most will determine the paint scheme. I like to look at the area I'll be in and any specifics involved. Take the most common color and this will be the base coat. Paint the entire gun with this color. Then find the second most common color and make broad, blending stripes with it. Pick out the third color and use lesser stripes or spots. Be careful not to make a distinct pattern, the colors should blend.

 If you will use it in specific areas like bushes, rocks, or trees, paint it like the inside of the bush or the side of the tree or the edge of the rocks where you will be hiding. Just use the technique above to pick out the colors.

 I use Testor's Model Master military sprays. They have a big range of colors to chose from and are made for plastic. You can get them from model shops and hobby stores. Otherwise, you'll have to rely on DIY or paint stores.

 Taping off- I would tape the trigger mechanism and scope if you want to paint the scope. I removed my scope and painted the rings and bases. Stuff a rag in the receiver,chamber,and magazine. Paint only the exposed portions of the bolt. You can do this with the bolt in the receiver so as not to paint unnessesary parts. DO NOT paint any part of the gun that slides or moves. The paint can become gummy or bind the part.

  Sorry for the long post, hope this helps.

            LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:28:21 (ZULU)

Wes, I think you may remember better than me...  However, I don't recall it being purple.  I sometimes get confused about the quantity as the old boats carried 186k gals. fuel (problem caused by 'No longer give a shit...').  I still have my enlisted AND officer qualifications notebooks from Trieste, however.  When I was on her, she was the Trieste II, you were on her earlier I suspect (Trieste) as you referenced the White Sands.  That is SEVERAL years before me.  When I first went aboard, we had no 'mother' ship and just threw a tow-line on anything that would drag us to sea.  Later, we had the USS Point Loma (a civilian version of an LSD used to replentish the 'Dew Line' when it existed).  Towards the end of Trieste, we were the only ones using that particular AV gas octane and it may have contributed to our demise, although we were horribly expensive to operate for many reasons.

Sorry fer tha long post, I know this ain't "Sub Country."


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 21:41:08 (ZULU)


Thanks for the reply.  I know the M1A has a longer sight radius, I just didn't think it would make that big of a difference but apparently it does.  

The whole sight picture just seems better on the M1A.  I thought it might be that the rear sight was further from my eye but I checked and the distance seems about the same for the M1A and the AR.

Anyway, I'm happy I can still shoot the M1A with irons.  There's just something about that rifle I really like.  As for the AR, no space gun for me at this time.  I do have an IOR 6 X 42 tactical scope with an MP 8 reticle that'll fix that problem as soon as I get a descent mount for it.  The IOR scope is sweet; solid, bright optics, good price too.  Maybe overkill for the AR though.

Steve <>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 22:41:48 (ZULU)

Ref: SC Match @ Badlands

Roger that....can't wait.


Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 00:19:05 (ZULU)

Andrew, rifle painting.  If your rifle is blued steel, try "roughing up" the steel with something like 400 wet/dry sandpaper.  You can get it at any auto parts store that sells paint.  Wipe down with something like MEK or some other thinner that completely evaporates.  Stay away from stuff like mineral spirits.  Try a coat of one part zinc.  It is sometimes called cold galvanize.  It comes in gray or green, depending on the manufacturer.  This will also keep your barrel from rusting.  

Dittos on paint not liking bad weather.  Moisture will cause paint to blush or go flat.  Temps under 50 degrees will cause it to not cure, and "slide off".  I had this happen on a building once.  What a mess.

Just me $00.02 worth.

John <>
Liberty, TX, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 00:22:56 (ZULU)

"Gentlemen",I got to try out this chrony device this morning and being math challenged (retarded)I cant figure out the sd.I followed the formula in the instrucions and kept getting E on me calculator :)

Can anyone help please?I cant seem to get the formula straight.


The use of a hammer usually makes instructions make more sense so I'll go and get one to adjust the calc with while I wait for an answer.

Thanks guys.



Edited after web search,13.46,right?the old hammer trick always fixes the problem,if somethin is fubar you dont have to assemble it,you bin it.

Gavan Willis <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 01:44:52 (ZULU)

John is right about stripping and scuffing steel to get paint to adhere, but I wouldn't be able to bring myself to sand the blued steel on a rifle.

Paint it.  When it scrapes off, paint it again.  No permanent damage.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 02:02:02 (ZULU)

GW,  vel:2852,2835,2849,2820,2821,2835.  Average velocity=2835  Extream Spread=32...Standard Deviation=13.5

Many ballistic programs will give all the above.


HDR <>
OK, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 03:32:22 (ZULU)

I thank god every day that I get to read posts from some of the most intelligent mothers in the world.  Where else can you go and read about nuke construction techniques and yield enhancement!  I LOVE THIS SITE!!!!! :-)

Happy new years you all!

Andrew - Just put tape on what you don't want to paint and have a ball.  Don't get technical about it and you will find that if you don't like what you have, then pain it again.  Our students will change color scheme a couple times during the course without any real problems.  The uglier it looks the better it will probably work. :-)

Ken M. - Actually bud been agree ing wiht a bunch of your posts, just didn't want to admit it.  :-)

Steve - Becareful now, my last name is Boucher and that is butcher in French.  Lived there for a spell and am third generation.  However, do agree with your assessment.  :-)  As far as the "dehumanization posts" posts go and my getting ralled up over it, I would say it hit a very old nerve and I may have over-reacted.  Have only done that a few times in my 55 years.  I do know some guys at the SWC that may refute that however. :-)

Kevin (Andy's Dad) - Not this year, got to go to a tracker school with most of the commitee and the ones not going to that will be involved in other "must do schools".  Understand a few good speakers this year.  Hope none of the silliness of last year.  Remember some of those talks?  Whew, talk about oddities.  :-)

Keith - Be weary of low order detonation or the bullet coming apart halfway to the target.  That is a very light bullet for the 300 Win Mag case.

Bolt - Those drunks can be fun to watch.  Now I worry about what I did when I was one of the great plastered ones!  When you find that weapon, get me one too!

Alan - You are still missing the Dehumanization process.  They do not dehumanize the soldier, they attempt to dehumanize the enemy.  This makes it easier to kill the enemy.  Look again at the SS sceneraio that you used.  They dehumanized the Jewish, the Gypsies, the Russians, etc.  However, they always showed the SS how human they were and how special and civilized they were.  Again, the same holds true during your time.  They dehuminaized and demonized the Soviets, the VC, etc.  You see, I went through the same thing you did.  I came into SF in 1967 and stayed until retirement in 1990.  I now work as an instructor at the Special Warfare Center and School.  I teach snipers and we do not and have never "dehumanized" the students.  We do explain to then the problems they may encounter, but to dehuminize would actually be counter productive in that they must be able to properly chose when to and not to fire.  a dehuminized robot would not be able to make that decision worth a crap.  If there was/is this process, then I missed it. :-)

Steve - Sight alignment on the AR.  Try painting a small whit dot on the sight block below the fron sight post.  Place it at a comfortable distance down that you have a natural sight alignment.  Now when you shoot, touch your nose to the charging handle and let the white dot settle in the bottom of the rear sight aperature.  It should be easy as the mind sees it as a BB resting in the bottom of a pipe.  It will be obvious as soon as the BB moves form the bottom of the pipe and it has the side benefit of making you look at the fornt sight.  Now remember to check sight alignment as the last check before firing the weapon and your groups should tighten up.  What you are doing wiht the M1A is using the hex screw subconsciencely, Or on purpose, and this places that reference point on your AR.  Hope this helps.

Well guess that my short post turned into a band burner.  Sorry guys.  Hope that you all took the first para for what it was intended, a compliment on the variety and competence of the posters on this little web site we call home.  :-)

Hold hard Guys


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 03:38:51 (ZULU)


 Here's the link:

My reference to "Carl" is the local varient of lessons learned--"Call" is the one I meant to reference.  Either way, the link is the one you want.


 Ohhhhh!  So that was the angle. I missed your point from the get-go, in that dehumanization of the enemy--through proganganda or other means was your intent.  Yessir, that goes on.  But it is ineffective in the long run.  Using slurs to make a monster of your enemy is all fine and well until you meet your enemy face to face and he is us.  Heheh.  Anyway, I thought we referred to the effect of killing on "our" soul.  My point, in either case, is we must take the time to truly understand our enemy...and we must educate our troops accordingly.  Propaganda and slogans are a poor substitute for the thorough treatment I am advocating--to know and understand the stakes of action or inaction will give the average Joe a better perspective before he takes a life.  Then, it is a process of reconcilliation that ultimately justifies his action.  Without this, a young troops who kills another young troop (who looks much more like himself than he ever expected) may spend much of life wondering why.  We do not spend any resources on killing as a thought process.  Just "how to."  Ever wonder why a rifle company's rifles aren't as lethal as you would expect???  Or why the bullet pK is so far out of whack that we may as well issue slingshots???

OK, there are two ways to overcome the societal reluctance to killing another human being.  The old way of painting the enemy as an insect (or whatever is fashionable).  Or the harder, more cerebral way of depicting the conflict in terms of what may happen if we don't kill the enemy.  One works right now, and gets slightly more effective over time with conscripts...while the other takes a helluva initial investment, but will work long term and over many different conflicts with your professional all-volunteer force.  How many times will our young'uns buy into the "BG's are cockroaches" as we go from conflict to conflict?  "Hey, I thought the Iraquis were The NKs are?  Damn, I forgot..."  Yeah right.  We really need to teach the cultural and ideological objectives and goals of potential adversaries to our soldiers, even during peaceful interludes.  And we need to focus the POI on why killing one of them isn't such a bad idea.  In other words, the "why" of it.  We got away from this bigtime when the USSR ceased operations.  

Sub country?  Didn't those guys invent the Gen II reticle for their periscopes?  Hey, it relates.  Well, maybe only in my twisted little mind...LOL


 I'm with ya.  If nuking everthing we don't like ever became policy, I'd be out a job!  I need the money guys, so listen to Dan when he bags on ya!  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 04:22:49 (ZULU)

Larry and all,

The aviation fuel that Trieste used was a very pale purple. Same stuff used in AD-1 Skyraider, etc. Your take on Trieste's demise because of this may be accurate. She decommissioned in '80, so the use of this fuel may have attributed.

I was on Trieste II (DSV-1) from '72-74. Still have my qualification notebook, as well. Our deployment group as call the Integral Operating Unit(IOU) and consisted of Trieste II, The White Sands (ARD-20), and the Apache (ATF-64).

Sorry to turn this into a submarine site, guys, but it's uncommon that there are three of us that crewed that piece of (then) cutting edge technology.

Jacque Cousteau used to give me heartburn, but then I was living the dream.

Semper fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 04:54:12 (ZULU)

Joe M. - Actually I believe they use both techniques.  They begin wth the enemy is a swine and needs to be killed and then they begin the if you don't then this is the outcome.  Look at the "Domino Theory" of old and the look at what is going on now as far as the results of inaction over action as opposed to reaction.  It is beginning and will continue until either we go in or there is a peaceful resolution.  I am not, however, buying into the dehuminazation game of our own troops.  The training of a pit bull or doberman mentality where we are kept in the back yard until we are needed is hog wash.  I know too many and have participated in too many to believe it.  It is great copy fo rhte newspapers and sound bits to get the name into the paper.  Unless, of course, that I have been so dehmanized that I no longer recognize myself and fellow compadres as dehumanized.  Will I kill the enemy, in a heart beat, has this got squat to do with being dehumanized, no, it means that I will defend my country as I will defend my family.  That is without reservation, and to my fullest.  To do that I must be human and wish to preserve my social group of humans or it becomes meaningless in all forms.

Crap, enough of this, and no Alan I do not think in terms of nor dismiss such as Psycobabble.  Been around this game for too long.

Hold hard Guys


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 04:55:21 (ZULU)

About a month ago I heard a good report on NPR.  When Sadaam let all the reporters in to cover the "election" he didn't have enough babysitters to go around.  One reporter on his s**t list got his credential late and the Iraqi security services didn't have a watcher for him.  He spent about a week riding around in cabs while intervewing the drivers.  About 3 out of 4 drivers asked him when we were coming.  You see, they WANT US TO PUT SADAAM'S HEAD ON A PIKE.

They hate the bastard up close and personal.  They see us as LIBERATORS.

That is the same deal as in A'stan.

These people are the victims of nuts like Kim Il Jong, Sadaam or those glue-sniffers who run Iran.

Our military must kill who they need to kill and not stop until the issue is no longer in question.  That will include some sorry assed conscripts who want nothing more than to be left alone to raise their families.  Stopping too soon just sets the stage for much more killing later.  The examples of Versailles and the end of Gulf War I illustrate this point.

If you let yourself think about it, these people's plight would be very sad.  But that is just the way it is.  Crying about brute facts is pointless.

But this "nuke all rags and dinks" foolishness makes more enemies than it nullifies.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 05:27:47 (ZULU)

It is obvious to me that I still haven't been able to get my point across to some:-( Remember that just because I maintain that something is true doesn't mean that I advocate it!

Dehumanization of the enemy is a time honored technique, however some of it may rub off on our own. Not all become married to the Military, although there's nothing wrong with that if it's your choice. Some feel as if they're not part of society when they leave the service after combat. Some become very antisocial. I don't claim to know, but I'll bet there are some damning statistics out there.

Rick, what you said about the SS was exactly what I meant in my post. Go back and re-read it if you've a mind to. Maybe I should go back to school and re-take English Composition at this late date!

Enough of this. I think that we may be on the same page, but are talking circles around each other;-)


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 05:55:17 (ZULU)


"I will defend my country as I will defend my family.  That is without reservation, and to my fullest.  To do that I must be human and wish to preserve my social group of humans or it becomes meaningless in all forms."

Well said.


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 06:06:15 (ZULU)


I just found a bunch of the old L81A1, M86, and M82 stocks.  (those used on the old sniper rifles)  I was wondering if anyone knew if they would work with standard Mauser 98 actions, or do they have to be special ones?  I would appreciate any help on this subject.  

Mayhem Out!

Mayhem <>
Texas, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 06:42:33 (ZULU)

Tritium-Uncle is looking into using commercial nuke plants to brew new lots of the stuff so's the big bang will still occur.  Must have some use:)))))

Hammer on a bolt handle at - frigid????, not a real good idea now that the handles aren't forged integral with the bolt body.  You can find ways to warm the rifle up easier than you can reattach the bolt handle.

WR Moore <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 11:23:16 (ZULU)


Early 60's was a little before my time as I wasn't born until 1966 LOL Things have probably changed a little but knowing the government, not much. USS Nautilus museum is nice if you're ever in the area. A good history lesson on the sub service in the Navy.

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 11:41:05 (ZULU)

Alan - Reread your post and put it in the correct context.  Sorry for the mis-read.  My fault and not your writing.  Had already made up my mind about the meaning and read it as such.  Exactly what I teach my students to never do, or they will see exactly what they have made up their mind to or not to see.  Mea culpa.

I agree, we are on the same page, it was my inability to read properly that caused the confusion.

JC - Tahnk you.

Bolts coming lose - Yes, have seen it on the range with two seperate weapons that we were trying to get open due to student mischief and lack of attention to detail.  The rawhide mallet poped them right off with minimal force.  Both were condemned with faulty silver solder jobs that had gaps and bubbles.  Sent back and were repaired but in the field that is not an option.  :-(

Oh well back into my day job.  Got to get ready for the next month of fun and games.

Hold Hard


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 12:22:33 (ZULU)

Jeager and Rick, You have mail N/A.

Sarge, I will pen it in on my calender. I will deffinately be there, unless I can't. At which point I wont. But I should be there.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 14:45:42 (ZULU)

Bolt handles coming loose:

If cold weather operations increase the chance of the handle seperating from the bolt body, maybe having the bolt modified pre-deployment is the solution.  

Jeff Hicks does a bolt mod that prevents the handle from seperating.  I've seen one that was modified and it's very nice.  I can't see any drawbacks to the mod he does as far as functionality.  The one bolt I've seen modified was very well done and for the $40 that Jeff charges it seems like it would save a lot of headaches.  I don't know if George or Jerry have a mod available that achieves the same thing.(anyone??)


is that why you went to autoloaders ;)


Chris <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 14:52:50 (ZULU)

Ref: Wire Cutters

Some time ago I asked what would be the best brand/type wire cutters to keep in the kit for cutting through chain link fence.  I got answers and lost them.  Sorry.  I tried a search here but I must be doing something wrong.  As I recall the brand was Klein?????  Medic Jim can you tell me again?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 15:06:03 (ZULU)

Rick B. - When you are RECOGNIZED as being at the top of your game, complacency becomes a HUGE risk....Staying at the top of your game requires humility when all around you encourage otherwise...

I truly admire your integrity in action. (ref. your last post)

Bolt handles coming loose when struck - been there, done that (abuse), learned a lesson that will last as long as I live.  George reattached my bolt handle and repainted the bolt for the cost of shipping (even though it was my fault)... It appears the solder job letting loose was ...

Wire cutters - Klien linesman pliers... there are two sizes, get the larger... Klien sells replacement handle insulators that are red, rigid plastic... these are a MUST... Cut the 'dipped' coating off the pliers, place the red handles in boiling water and pound them on the now have a quality tool.  (HOME DEPOT and SEARS handle the Klien line where I live)

medicjim <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 15:32:42 (ZULU)

I have the Jeff Hicks bolt mod on my 300WM he just built for me and it's a great modification. That bolt handle will bend before it comes loose. Click on my name below to get a link to his site and check out the mod.

Rob01 <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 15:53:46 (ZULU)

Ref: 6.5-.284

She's here and she's a long drink of water @51".

Thanks George.  She's a beauty!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 16:00:17 (ZULU)

I lumped a bunch of posts together and responded generally and with a lack of focus.  That was very sloppy.  It probably looked like I was responding to Alan.  I wasn't.  

He made a valid point about the dehumanization of the enemy trick.  Years ago I read a letter from one of the German soldiers involved in putting down the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.  He couldn't understand why people as obviously inferior as the "subhumans" even wanted to stay alive.  

The Japanese propaganda was just as crazy.  They acted on it and you see what it got them.

You've got to be careful not to believe your own bullshit.

It looks like the Shiites (Iran) and the Wahhabis (Saudi Arabia and Al Qaeda) are skirmishing.  The mad mullahs in Iran are getting desperate.

We're pulling a grapefruit off the bottom of the pile.  Nobody knows where they will land, but I'll bet we land on top.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 16:29:54 (ZULU)

This message edited to be more constructive...

New Jersey has placed a ban on all handguns that do not employ the electronic ID process that makes a pistol uselesss to anyone but it's owner.  The law gives three years to comply.

The law goes into effect when and if the technology is invented.

I hear next week there will be a ban on death rays, gauss rifles, death stars and terminator robots (including the liquid metal ones).  There will be a grandfather, so get your death rays today!

Also relevant - The Swede's just announced a study which suggests working with stupid people can increase your risk of heart attack.

medicjim <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 16:32:34 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

 Could you email me an update on our "Operation Birthday Card" recipient?  That courageous young man stayed in my thoughts/ prayers over the holiday season, and I think I may have missed an update along the way.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 17:31:54 (ZULU)

AR-10 Mag situation  "Listen Up"  I will try to answer some of the questions of the last few days.

Right now their are three ways to get an AR-10 20 round mag.

Option 1 is to have Armalite convert the mags for you.  They charge $30 each or $125 for 5 and you have to send in a 20 round mag for conversion.  In the past it had to be a USGI or Chineese mag which is where th $70-$80 cost comes from.  But as of this past September you can send in the $13 USA mags which are junk instead, and get the USGI quality mag back.  So for $43 you have a like new 20 round mad.  This program varies slightly with their current marketing.  Sometimes it's $5 or so more.

Option 2 is to purchase the Kits.  In order to get the kits you have to send in a Shell form an existing mag.  The same $13 USA mags work, since the Shells you get back are new, along with a follower and spring.  Cost here is about the same.

Option 3 is to use M-14 mags like they are, with the metal follower.  You have to cut a hole for the mag catch in the side and shorten up the feed lips.  These can be had from Coles in used condition for $31.00  I have dozens of these and they work 100%.  The bolt hold open won't function but unless you are in a firefight is of no consequence other than convenience.

Genuine HK mags are over $50 and SR-25 mags  are $125 or more.  5 round HS mags are over $50, AI mags are over $70 for the 5 and 10 rounders, and FN's are over $50 for 5 rounds.  UNless you go with the FAL's  everything is some bucks.

Take Care

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 18:15:42 (ZULU)


You have mail. N/A


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 19:27:59 (ZULU)

Joe M. Operation Birthday Card was a Overwhemling success. I recieved a photo (His Dad is no photogragher) of the birthday boy with boxes and boxes of cards. It was around 4,500 if I recall correclty. The father did express thanks for the little items added to the cards (pictures, patches ect.) He did get to meet several famous football players when he went to the football game. I would tell you there names but I done forgot them. Thanks again for all those that helped out on the project.

Its off to roll call..

Dirty Steve, Out..

Steve Dickerson <>
There no such thing as luck, God just loves stupid people..., - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 19:58:22 (ZULU)

Gavan Willis:

You got mail. no attachment


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 20:47:12 (ZULU)

Untermensch is what the Nazi's called anyone who they thought was inferior.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 20:54:35 (ZULU)

 Those burgundy Klein grips will go over the dipped plastic with a little "fin-esse" and then they fill your hand more betterer......

>>>"Untermensch is what the Nazi's called anyone who they thought was inferior."<<< Is one who thinks another to be inferior, if the other turns out to be superior, inferior to the superior?..............;)

  Oh yeah, and Klein also makes a hardended cutter grade which costs a few bucks more but will far outlast the standard grade.....9" is the length ya want, they are the biggeruns Jim's talking about.

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 22:23:24 (ZULU)

Hey all you humans and dehumans, ha !

Ya'll need to read "On Killing" by Dave Grossman. Also, "Men Against Fire" by S.L.A. Marshall (if you haven't already).

As always, there are arguments pro and con on these twos theories.

Happy Hannaka,


brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 22:39:34 (ZULU)

 "Hannaka"??? Cajun Holiday??????

MarkSmith <>
LakeCormorant, - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 22:46:02 (ZULU)

Mark, neither, one was simply wrong.

It is however a fact that human life has a different "worth" in different cultures, as does common decency, respect,honesty, a sense of right and wrong.Propagandists make use of this fact to motivate, scare or threaten. I would suggest that war is a special situation where in bread or in trained reactions and the will to survive take priority over the will to adhere to "human values" , war reduces man to his animal state, and we are all animals when it comes down to it. If this means that one is dehumanised or dehumanises others, so be it.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, January 2, 2003, at 23:14:55 (ZULU)

I received this today in an email..........

"Opened in October 1998, has gone "dormant" as of 31 December 2002......More than 4 years ago, we challenged firearms owners to prove a point...that internet Discussion Forums need not be "Chat Rooms"; that spirited debate need not include personal attack; that internet exchange need not fall to the level of lowest common denominator. Together, nearly 18,000 of us rose to exceed this challenge. Together, we provided a compendium of information on firearms, tactics, safety and political insight perhaps never before seen in one place. Together, we have educated the novice and inquirer, converted the misled, built a bond between many LEO's and Law Abiding Citizens, raised monies for worthy causes and much more. In short, TFL has truly "raised the bar".

With the closing of TFL, we end a chapter...but not the book. We each now know what can be achieved in an atmosphere of free exchange, where civility, intelligence and articulation are prized and respected. We ask each of our Members to carry that tradition forward to other sites and venues."

They didn't mention SniperCountry as an alternative venue but I see all they said above as referring to SniperCountry also.  We are all they were and more.  Their loss if they can't see it or admit it.  Let's not lose what we got!!  Like Master Rick said, this place is unbelievable!

Badlands SC Match -

If a certain gas gun believer gets his shit together in the near future, there may be two of us there with the big gas guns.  I'm having the Raffle Rifle from last year restocked and tweaked as we speak.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 00:07:27 (ZULU)

My son was kind enough to remind me that today I finally qualified to partake of the McDonald's Senior Citizen discounts.

I made it to 55!

01-02-03.  Cool.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 00:12:00 (ZULU)

Ok Hawgs listen up, I'm gonna share some extremely valuable information just received at 1500 this afternoon , delivered in person in lecture format by one of America's finest.

Oh, turn the bullshit meters to the OFF position.  

I was standing in a pawn and gun in Killeen (Ft. Hood) Tx.

I'm quoting...........the Russian Dragunov is the finest most precise sniper weapon ever built.  You can open the action, pour it full of sand, chamber a round, and shoot an enemy 1800 meters away.  

It fires under water.

You can drag in behind a truck,,,,,,,,and it still works.

I'd buy it but Im goin home to Arkansas.......and it's illegal there because you can't own a weapon that shoots further than 500 yards.  

End quote.

Dayyyyummmm.......I almost bought it.

Mike inTexas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 00:45:03 (ZULU)


Happy Birthday!!  Man,, you is gettin' old ;))  47 more years and you'll be knockin' on 'Lito's door!!

Mike in Tejas,

The saleman must have gotten his info at the gunshow!!


10-7-73, young,broke,FAT and stupid.  And the misses still has me on double secret probation ;))

Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 00:56:21 (ZULU)

Rob01 - Sorry, I've had all of that 'frozen waste land' I can handle!  I'm gonna stay down here whur it tain't quite so bad...

Wes, I would suspect that the purple tint to the AV gas used in T-II's floatation was caused by the 'tetra-ethel' (lead) in it.  Don't know fer shur...  I know several of the divers got some pretty bad 'burns' when they had to swim in 'spillage' (over fill).  They would not be allowed to dive for a while to prevent lead poisoning.  What were you on T-II, Machinist Mate?  Me & you make 2, who's the t'other one?

I was an 'EM.'

1-2-2002 = 55?  Try 60 on 11-22-2002.  I go in Monday for the SECOND gnu knee...

Sorry 'bout "Sub Country..."

(We used a kind of stadimeter for a range finder)



Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 01:50:12 (ZULU)

Kevin M:

The pliers you are looking for are the Klein D213-9NE, If you need a built in crimper buy the D213-9NECR. They have hardened  jaws and will cut chain-link fence like buttter. Cut off the blue dipped handles and put on the red replacement handles, you will be good to go!

TonyM <>
FL, US of A!!! - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 02:15:33 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, Chris, JR, and Andy's Dad, you've got incoming of the good kind.

Jessie Chang, I didn't get any e-mails, or maybe I deleted them due to paranoia. Belay that, I've got too much junk from these jerks, so it can't be paranoia. Please resend, and I'll keep a look out.

Interesting posts lately. Peter talks about muslim fanatic running shoes – jihad hoppers, and doing things with adoptive siblings. For a while now, people have been talking about their ROKs and how to get them off. Now we see Ken and Rick are into not only swinging, but swinging competitions. And of course, John volunteers to “take the big one” with a nice please after words. At least Ken has one thing right, about us getting bombed in Nevada. But then again, it’s around new years eve, what do you expect? With all the talk of mouse guns and rat guns, at least we haven’t hit yet on gerbil guns.

John, I don't crimp on the 223, I think your neck resizing might be a little loose. After all, they only need to hold for 29 rounds max, right?

Mike Miller, congrats on the expenses paid, hopefully, vacation. You know how to contact me if you need anything? If UPS or Fedex will get there, you can count on me to do what I can, and a little more. Doubt you'll need it though. Can I recommend a metal detector? Might need it, I hear the elevators are well hidden over there. God Speed my friend, and don't forget the pictures. Forget the flash though.

Moe, let us know how your stick turns out. I've got good feelings about that and the other thing as well.

Happy new years guys, may peace wring out across the globe, and put Joe out of work. Until then, it's business as usual.

Jaeger <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:31:58 (ZULU)

My brother gave my six year old son a "Hank Williams' Greatest Hits" CD for Christmas.  The kid plays it over and over and loves it.  The little whack job is walking around the house singing "...she'll do me, she'll do you, she's got that kind of lovin'..." then yodeling.

He's really trying his mother's patience.  I'm more of a Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf man myself, but the whole thing is cracking me up.

CDC' <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:31:58 (ZULU)

Got some interesting email and found I wasn't the only Frog on this board.  :-)

Medicjim - Thank you for your kind words, I accept the fact that if I am going to jump someone then I need to accept being wrong as well.  Hell, that is the price of being human, being wrong and accepting it.

Moe - Welcome to the discount realm of age and senility.  I have found that it makes a great excuse for some of the crap I do off and on.  :-)

Dam Mike and I shoot one every once in a while when I am really bored and want the chanllenge of shooting a POS as near ranges.  Never knew it shot better the further away the target is posted and I did not know you had to pour sand in it to make it shoot.  However, I guess the sand would tighten up the action a mite.  :-)

Also, had my shorts pulled up short by a known expert and was informed politely that there is no such thing as a lower order detonation with gun powder as gun powder does not explode.  He is quite correct and I stand corrected.  I guess this just has not been my month.  There will be change today, on command I will open mouth and insert new foot. :-)

Edited because my typing really sucks!

Hold hard guys.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:35:59 (ZULU)


Wasn't the sales dude.  

Was a young E-sumthin spouting his years of wisdom for all to hear whilst standing semi tall in the unearned black beret..............yeah, the Beret thing still grates on me.......some folks had to pay for them with sweat and blood.  

Ya'd think this was france.

Mike inTexas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:40:29 (ZULU)

I love journalists....this was posted on Yahoo re: the serial muderer who temporarily escaped in Italy...

"He was later caught by officers tracking him with helicopters and sniffer dogs."

....."sniffer dogs"...are they different than "biter dogs"....hows aboot "woofer dogs"????

Anyway...figured out the real reason we nuked Japan....WE DIDNT WANT TO FIGHT IN THE COLD!!!  Its frickin freezing here!!!  Starting to snow....All them soldiers and Marines that fought in the Solomons, Okinawa etc didnt have the freeking cold weather gear for a winter in Japan....jeeze.

Out here.


Gooch <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:53:03 (ZULU)

You guys are in rare form these last couple days.  It takes something either extremely vulger or just plain out of place to get me to laugh out loud...  That Hank Williams story got me good,,, Thanks Dan.


I was no Ranger, and didn't want to be a Ranger,, but I still hate the black beret thing too.  So does my brother, who is Army on an Air Farce base (a little dig). If the Army want to instill espirit de corps, train together, fight toghether, win together.  Who gives a shit what your hat looks like?


There's no way you can be French.  From what I've heard,, you hold your rifles hard ;))  BTW,, you any relation to the Richard Boucher that's one of the National Secuity Advisors?  (The guy can really work the crowd on CSPAN 2,, LOL...)

Match dates are in!!!  We got 14 weekends, or 4 more than last year.  This should be a good season for XTC and Long Range shooting in TN.  Will keep you all posted on the what's and where's.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 03:56:31 (ZULU)


We'll Larry, I guess I'm math challenged. For some reason I thought Kevin had been on board, too. Like you, I was an Electrician's Mate and diver EM2(DV). Swam in the water a lot...nothing like looking down into the inky blackness and wondering what's down there at 16K...Loved the tour and would have stayed Navy enlisted if they could have guaranteed me staying in the deep submergence community.

I do know that we were under orders NOT to vent fuel unless absolutely required. Never picked up the "burns" you described.

Am looking at the June calender and am going to do some  research to see what it'll take to get me to Oklahoma. Anyone know of hotel's, etc. in the area? Figure a five day day on either end for travel and recuperation.

This all dependent on my ability to get the time off and coverage of my duties at OSP...for...COUNT ME IN! Dammit, SOMEONE from the west coast has got to get to one of these things. If for no other reason than to show you we exhist. Won't comment on my shooting ability.

I'm coming to LEARN!

How about we start a roster of possible attendees. Brian, CDC, Gooch-san, Rick B., Stan(I KNOW your lurking), and...?

Perhaps stay at one location(special rates?), group dinner,...etc.

Really want to meet some of you gents. We have warm friendships developed on the list and I'd like to be able to put faces with the names.

On duty tonight...will give this more thought.

Someone needs to let us know a general course of fire, rounds requiremnt, etc. Maps?

Kevin, congrats on the new 6.5 X .284. You're gonna love it...

All for now...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 04:12:50 (ZULU)


The last class I attended at Badlands a couple of friends and I stayed in Wichita Falls, TX. There's a handful of hotel/motels there. It's about 30 miles from Grandfield OK. which is where Badlands is located. There's not much in Grandfield, though Bobby has a pretty big bunk house on the property.

With Badlands you cannot ask for a better group of guys to work with. Steve Suttles is one of the instructors at Badlands and one of the nicest and most helpful teachers I've ever encountered. Steve spent some extra time with me at my first class. Right after I almost flunked the 100 yard test. Steve spent the next hour settling me down and helping me out. An hour later he had me shooting a pretty nice 5 shot group a 1K. I'll never forget the smile on his face. It was truly a rememberable moment for me. Anyway Steve is dealing with some health issues. If any of you are praying men Steve could sure use your thoughts and prayers. He is definitely one of the good guys.

I hope that was OK to post. I really grew fond of the man, though I knew him only for a short time. It was an honor to study under him. And I look forward to many more classes with him.

John Levens

John Levens <>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 04:58:13 (ZULU)


    Is the Army using the SPR as a spotters rifle? I would think that it makes more sense in that role than an M4 does, if they're gonna use a 5.56mm. BTW - it's nice to be understood;-)


           Anybody out there know what the particulars are with this new rifle? I understand that the Corps is going to adopt the A4 for infantry use instead of the M4 as was rumored. Good move IMHO.

AR-15 sight radius,

                  If you're having trouble, if the front post and target aren't focused together, if you've got weak or ancient eyesight try the B. Jones rear aperature lens system. Legal for SR, and trulr works wonders. If you try it - you'll like it!


    I'll bet that we come out on top. There'll also be a bunch of bruised fruit and a lot of grapefruit juice down towards the bottom!

Pete L,

       As opposed to Ubermensch?


   Happy Birthday. I wonder if they give Senior discounts at the Bunny Ranch? Maybe group rates? It'd be like one of those buffets that the old folks attend almost daily!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 05:33:05 (ZULU)

Thanks to those guys that answered my q ref standard deviation calc.I found a site wich explained it sensibly,I think the chrony folk might have had some of them howler monkey crack heads writin their formula.



Gavan Willis <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 05:45:24 (ZULU)

Fat Boy,

Email headed your way w/attachment


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 06:51:12 (ZULU)

Hi Jeager,

  I just resned my e-mail. No attachment.



Jessie Chang <>
Seattle, WA, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 08:33:14 (ZULU)

Rick B.

You can tell how much you're respected around here, when they quietly send ya an email an tell ya your foot is in your mouth instead of tellin everybody on the roster at the same time.


Big One??? I resemble that remark!!! I'll get a smaller bushing for the neck sizer. I thought that question had been consumed by EMP. :))

Mike in Texas,

Sometimes it's considered polite to smack the livin shit outta some folks.

Moe ... Happy Birthday Sir, and congratulations.


I didn't know you could own a handgun in Jersey unless you were a politician or movie star. Now they gotta be electric, huh? Weren't you talkin bout movin awhile back?

Klien pliers,

Both handle covers or not, the pair I bought in 1973 is still in my tool belt and it's been used for more than wire more than once. If you look up "durable" in websters there's a picture of klien pliers.


Don't know about the stocks but welcome back.

Speakin of welcome back.....where is 'yote bait'???


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 10:58:35 (ZULU)

Kevin M.

Klien fence cutter: if you can't find one at the store check the ebay link below. I have two sets, I liked the ones I had at home so well I bought another set for my call-out gear at work.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 11:41:46 (ZULU)

>>>Moe - Welcome to the discount realm of age and senility.  I have found that it makes a great excuse for some of the crap I do off and on.  :-)<<<

Shit, Rick.  I've been using "age" as an excuse for years!  Only now it's legit! :-)))


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 13:32:21 (ZULU)

Quick post before going to the range with Chuck.


You may check the San Antonio news sites for why this was posted. I'm off to the range..

A P@#$ed, Dirty Steve, OUT..

Edited, Chuck over slept. I got 20 mins for him to get here so I found a link to what I was miffed about.. here it is..

Steve Dickerson <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 13:47:00 (ZULU)

Mike Diorio - Just noticed your post from Dec 26.  Do not know if anyone replied to you or not.  Need more info for that request, bullet and weight used and muzzle velocity.  Send me an email with no attachments and the subject clearly marked as 300 Win Mag request.  Will run you a base line chart for your use.  However, remember that the base line charts are only guides and will get you on paper.  They will not be exact depending on the weapon, day, and Murphy the man.

Gooch - Woofer dogs, are they the ones you put next to your stereo or whatever it is called now days.  You crack me up man.  Oki won't get snow but I have had fires in my fire place when I was stationed there. It can get right cold during the winter.

Chris - HUSH your mouth, me and a Statey being related.  I would shoot the sucker to put him and me out of my misery if that was the case.  Lets just say that the State Dept and me do not get along.  Seems they wanted to put me under Fort Leavenworth during one of my trips to El Salvador in 81.  Luckily two senior officers got me out of trouble.  

Alan - Yes the SPR is being used as a spotter rifle and as the main weapon depending on mission profile and estimated ranges etc.  Using 77gr Black Hills right now due to the fact they fit in the magazine and nominal range ability to 600 meters.  Some of the other rounds are better at the longer ranges but do not fit in the mag.

Also the B. Jones Sights ar a miracle in performance for old dudes withe failing eyesight or for guys who have problems shooting with glasses on their peepers.  I whole heartedly concur with Alan on this rear sight.

Moe - Happy Birthday, for the second time as my mind is going south I do believe, you are pushing old fart land now, enjoy the bennies.  You can meet new friends over and over again. :-0

Well enough for now, Hold Hard Guys


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 13:56:12 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

DAMN! Contact me offline, would like to get the complete details of that fight to add to my department's training files.

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 14:25:34 (ZULU)

Ref: Second Annual Spirit of America Match

Last September Andy and I spent 8 days at Raton, NM (NRA Whittington Center) shooting the first Spirit of America Match.  It was great!  This year the match will be held August 31 through September 6.  It's all known distance stuff out to 1 kiloyard and F-Class is the game for me.  It's well run and a great opportunity for quality trigger time.  Give it some thought.

It's snowing at about an inch per hour here. The upside is I'll be in Miami all next week.  Moe are you going to be around?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 14:35:31 (ZULU)

Krauthammer on NKs nuclear breakout.  This is very clear, very short and very important.  This has the potential of becoming a hell of a mess.

CDC' <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 15:03:57 (ZULU)


   I do believe if you check you'll find that the bolt holes are spaced differently enough to not make it worth a conversion along with all the other measurements being off as well.  What kind of stock are you looking fro for the Mauser? I've been working with a VZ24 for a while now and have looked at a lot of different stocks.


John Murphy <>
Milford, NH, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 16:06:38 (ZULU)

>>>It's snowing at about an inch per hour here. The upside is I'll be in Miami all next week.  Moe are you going to be around?<<<

Sorry guy.  I'm off to Boston again.  Gonna try to get my mother into a new nursing home that's half the price and twice as nice as where she's at now!

And I'll get to try out my newly acquired "Old Fart's" discounts up there!  


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 16:45:51 (ZULU)

This is for Mike Rock:

I tried to contact you off line. I'm sure your busier than a three legged cat with diarrhea these days.  I wanted to ask about status of the false muzzled, Henry rifled, heavy barrel you are cutting for me.

Jim McNabb

"Any society which suppress the Heritage of its conquered minorities, prevents their history, and denies them their symbols, has sewn the seed of its own destruction."

Sir William Wallace, 1281 AD

Jim McNabb <>
The Colony, Texas, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 16:47:14 (ZULU)

Leica vs. other range finders:

All of the cheaper civilian style rangefinders (Bushnell, Nikon, Tasco) are made by the same company.  They all have the same guts but are marketed by the different name brands.  All of these models use an LCD display.  It shows a lot of information but it also reduces optical clarity.

The Leica 1200 has good clear optics and you're not looking through an LCD.

The spring issue of Cabala's has a camouflage neoprene carry case for the Leica models for $12.99.  Very Nice!  Check it out.

Old Ironsights <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 18:48:04 (ZULU)


Thanks for the link to that article, it was -> on.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 18:53:45 (ZULU)


Godspeed and prayers to those brothers in SA.

Like Bobby, I too, am following the news info to add to the dept. training program. Had an instructor meeting just last night. Weapon retention and constant awareness are big issues.

Unfortunately or not, we are 'downgrading', IMHO, from .45 to .40   :(  in the Polymer framed model of Austrian fame. No dept firerarms instructor cadre input requested, just a decision made by outgoing Sheriff "because" thats what he heard other Sheriff's around the state are doing.

At least WI dept. of Justice now actively advocates facial, CNS shot placement training for all recruits.



Deputy Doug <>
K town, WI, US of A - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 19:11:35 (ZULU)


Is Japan a threat to China just because of proximity. I'm no student of Internat'l affairs, but Japan doesn't seem to be much of a military threat from a physical size or economic standpoint.

Rangefinder update...

The Sportsman Guide 2000 yd. model went back to 'em yesterday for a full refund.... nuff said?


You and Andy drive down to Indy and we'll load up the Motorhome with guns and beer and gear. I'm gonna try to make that match, if I don't do ANY of the rest, based soley on your thoughts at SMTC this fall.

Dirty Steve,

Hope your guys are OK. A domestic is bad, but in public, where John Q. Public can get hurt or interfere, is always worse. I bookmarked the paper to follow it.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 19:30:13 (ZULU)

Just back from the range. The M1A is now dialed in properly out to 500 yds. It posted two 2" 500 yrd 3 shot groups.Glock testing was a wash. The sights were not good enough to fairly evaluate a darn thing. Hienies will be ordered in a day or two.

On the shooting the smallest guy at the scene ended up fighting with the 6' 230lbs guy. The officer ended it during grappling by placing the Glock against the BG's head and double tapping. Officer was trapped under the BG when others arrived. They tought he was dead till he said something to the effect of "get this peice of shit off me".  More later as details are brought out.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 19:45:22 (ZULU)


 Sounds like a road trip to me........let's start the planning.  There is a great spot for RV hook-ups at Raton.  E-mail me your phone number.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 20:00:53 (ZULU)

There are NO motels in Grandfield (been there 3 times, I know). If you need one of those you'll have a 30-40 minute drive, at a minimum. Bobby does have a bunk house but it always fills up quickly (the price & ambiance are truely unbeatable). I did not notice any offical camp grounds in the area, but maybe one of the local land owners will be feeling a bit capitalistic. Then again, when (key word)it rains while we are there, any tents had best be on the deck of a houseboat (TINS:my first time there it rained 7 of 8 days, for 12+ inches). Maybe Bobby has a "match motel" or an expanded bunk house deal in the works (hint,hint,hint). While you may find people "as nice as" Steve & Bobby somewhere on this planet, you will not find any people "nicerer" than Steve & Bobby anywhere on this planet. And just to warn any non-southern types (such as myself) Grandfield most definetly has scorpions. To whomever is keep a list of possible attendees, add my name to it.

danny mull <>
akron, ohio, - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 20:03:34 (ZULU)


Hey guys, hope you had a good one, still have a week of holiday left here, then it's a hop, skip, and jump back across the pond to the UK.  Jaeger, I'll get back to you on the steel query,  gotta find the email you sent, only about 90 msgs to sort thru on zee hotmail, and it's closin in on beer thirty..

Anyway, thanks for the weather guys, it's been great here..


JR <>
SoDak, - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 20:23:47 (ZULU)

--From NAHC News letter--

President George W. Bush has signed a bill giving 2,880 acres of federal land, valued at $230 million, to Clark County, Nevada, for construction of the largest public shooting range in America.

The projected $30 million Clark County Sport Shooting Park will include ranges for archery, air guns, pistols, rifles and shotguns as well as trap, skeet and sporting clays. The state’s congressional delegation had supported the bill allocating the land for the project. County officials have said the facility will be modeled after the Ben Avery Shooting Range, a publicly owned and operated facility about 23 miles north of Phoenix and a National Association of Shooting Ranges member range.


OK now why do you guys out west get all the fun places to shoot?


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 21:03:29 (ZULU)


Happy Birthday you old varmint.  Another eleven years and you'll catch up with me.  Gettin' old really sucks; but not nearly as bad as the alternative!  ;o)

Larry & Wes,

That 115/145 may have been purple because of the lead; but it also had purple dye in it.  This was supposed to keep us stoopid airdales out of trouble.  The stuff would definitely cause burns.  When I overfilled my Zippo and it got on my leg, I knew it right away.  JP-4(jet fuel) was clear and 100/130 avgas was green.  A load of the wrong kind of fuel could be fatal.

Put me down for coming to Badlands.  I may not shoot; but I would love to meet some of you dudes in person.  We might even get 'yote Bait to show up.  


Doc Holloway <>
The snow-covered Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, January 3, 2003, at 21:23:51 (ZULU)

John:  I'd sure rather have Japan inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.  My guess is that Beijing's views are similar.

All that is kind of a side point to the article.  NK - with China's support - seems willing to sell nukes to any and all.  

The Cold War had fewer and more rational actors.  Risk was easier to assess.  Fanatics with nukes are like teen-age boys with whiskey and car keys.  

If it's not one damned thing it's another.

CDC' <>
- Friday, January 3, 2003, at 21:26:36 (ZULU)

>>>>>If it's not one damned thing it's another.<<<<<

Well, here's another one.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 00:03:09 (ZULU)

OK Hawgs, get your gunsmith aprons on!  Gun questions!

Have obtained a 700LA BDL Stainless .30-06.  Yes, it has the crappy black synthetic stock.  VERY few founds fired by original owner (like four)! Deal so good I could not pass up!  I think it can make a good platform for a great rifle.

Question 1:  Is this a good serial number range?  SN# S62233XX

Question 2:  Any good experience out there with .308 in a long action?

Question 3:  Would it take much to convert bolt to .300WM if       rebarreled and rechambered to .300WM?

I know some of you guys would drool at the thought of another grunt joining your 6.5X.284 club, but I am not that dedicated at reloading!  Guys, I am open to any ideas and discussion on the potential project!  

Bored and snowed in in CT!  Lester

PS:  'lito, "commo check!"  Have not heard from your OP in a while!

Les <>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:04:56 (ZULU)

Got notified tonight being officially returned to instructor status.  ADT :))

Dirty Steve-would appreciate details of incident when available to share with my troops.  Contact me OR if'n you want credentials.

Deputy Doug-Glock 22's have had frame rail failures due to QC problem with heat treat.  Make sure any/all you receive not subject to Glocks recall.

700 Bolt handle mod-checked out the website on the mod and not to doubt the 'smith's skills, but I think I'd use red Lok-Tite rather than low temp silver solder.  If the back of your bolt gets up to the 175F it takes to release that stuff you got major problems!!!!

WR Moore <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:05:42 (ZULU)

>>Capt. Andy Ellis, a department spokesman, said investigators are checking tips that might help solve other crimes or reveal new crimes.<< Quote from

Let's have fun with the "might reveal new crimes" aspect of that sentence.  Stick a microscope up anybody's fourth point of contact and it might reveal crimes.  Anybody ever take a piss outside (indecent exposure)?  How about spitting on the sidewalk (disorderly conduct)?  Know anyone who lost a movie rental or had one stolen (retail theft)? Did you have a conversation after the answering machine picked up--and fail to tell the other party (wiretap)?  I bet you all broke five laws last month, and never knew it.  

Since when is "might" probable cause?  Hell, when I moved to Massive-two-shits (or taxatuchetts), I had five days to register my handguns.  I was so informed several months later of this fact.  Would I have served a mandatory 1 year in jail for that?  The handguns, BTW, were stored in the arms room...did that make the entire Army an accessory after the fact? heheh.

 If the LEOs are forced to take on criminals like (former) self, then who is going after the crack dealers and rapists?  You know what would be funny?  If those so-called "gun groups" began calling in tips on politicians in the ' that would make my damn day...

It's all fun and games until yer door gets kicked in.  

And that little piece of the constitution called the Bill of Rights becomes your doormat for 8 pairs of jack-boots...(ever seen those MD state police uniforms?).  How effin' appropriate.  Glad I left that sorry state 22 years ago, and never looked back.  

Oh, was I ranting again?  Something I just read made me mad as hell...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:17:02 (ZULU)


If you're not ready to commit to what is clearly the most superior long range "MATCH" caliber out there (and might I add you'd be missing the boat), I'd consider a 284win in 7mm.  That way,, you get a caliber that utilizes a bullet with a BC better than that of a 308.  You don't have to open the bolt face up.  You don't have to modify the feed rails unless you want to mag feed.  You can seat the 284 out long enough to utilize the VLD bullets.  You're barrel life will be better than with a 6.5 bore.  Brass is readily avilable.  You don't HAVE to handload, but you'd be missing the boat. When you decide to switch to 6.5x284 you already have all the brass on hand!!

Don't want to modify the feed rail or bevel the bolt face?  How's about 6.5-06?  Same external ballistics as a 6.5x284 with slightly more powder.

In lue of that, 6.5x55 swede.  You get a taste for real 6.5 performance with off the shelf ammo.  Fed makes (or used to make) GMM in 6.5 swede.

Of course, you could stick with a 308 but a LA is wasted IMHO.  I think you'd be better off with the FagMag, but I may just be biased ;))

I know you said you don't want to handload, but for the extra $350 you'd need to get set up, you'll shoot 5X the rounds per year you do now. Take the plunge mang,,, you know you really want to, or you wouldn't have asked in front of 6.5 shooters ;))

BTW, If you lived in TN the money you'd save from not paying HIGH ASS state taxes and slow removal would buy you several nice donor rifles a year AND a reloading set up.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:26:33 (ZULU)


 My 1SG gave me a case of winchester 147's FMJ for christmas (he got a twenty pack of cigars from about 90 miles south of CONUS).

 I guess I'm gonna put my M21 back together and hoist the range flags this weekend.  Maybe a little shooting will get me off these rants!

Geoff, if yer not busy--come on up!  I've got some 168gr left over and coyotes begging for nirvana.  

Deputy Dawg (Doug),

What is a K-town?  Kenosha?  Was that you on I94 last Saturday that my ECM "made" in the nick of time??? Heheh.  I blew by in the battle wagon (expedition) enroute back from a day at the ballet.  If'n you are close to Eau Claire or McCoy ever, email me.  I always have room on the farm for a fellow shooter!  The wife is LEO too--so that's a double open invite!

Joe M.

If they only made a nomex tutu...

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:35:20 (ZULU)


Dude, I knew I would get heat from you!  I am still thinkin' about the 6.5X.284!  I have a 7RemMag and a .280 already.  I left the Rockchucker with my brother in Georgia when I moved to this overpriced wonderland, but we spent a couple of nights stocking up on M70 .264WM hunting loads first, about 300 to be exact!

I wish this 700 BDL was a short action, not a long action.  My real desire is a stainless Mike Rock 5R mated to this stainless receiver chambered in .308 for Fed 168 GMM, then teflon coated.

Has anyone utilized a long action for .308 without problems?

Getting my tax dollars money's worth in snow removal here in CT!

(Until the state layoffs on 1/17/03!)


Les <>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:55:17 (ZULU)


Been using a LA m700 for 308 for about two years, now.  Works fine.  It started life as a 30-06.

Just remember to push your rounds all the way to the back of the magazine when loading.



Dennis <>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:11:53 (ZULU)

Hot Damn, Spud!  That is what I needed to hear!  Thanks!

Now, to track down a Stainless 5R, recoil lug, trigger, stock........


Les <>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:16:20 (ZULU)


If'n yer gonna tear up a good rifle to build a great rifle,, you might just as well make a copy of an in-service rifle.  Why not make an M24?  It's a LA 308 with a R5 barrel.  You pick up an adjustable HS stock and put a dovetail on the front of the barrel you've pretty much got the look.  The floorplate, tigger, base and rings would have to be found, but that shouldn't be too hard ;))  If I'm not mistaken,, George does the authentic markings also. The MkIVM3's are on the emporium all the time.  You too could own(built) a little slice of history!!

reloading:  300 rounds of 264winmag?  That's almost the full life of a barrel for one of them ;)


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:31:00 (ZULU)

Just saw this preview.

Discovery channel 9:00 CST, tonight. "Sniper School"


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:31:44 (ZULU)

Howdy, hogs.  Checking in from Leave.

Just before Christmas the US lost Sergeant Stephen Checo, 504th Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, originally from Elizabeth, New Jersey, in Afghanistan.  Germany also lost seven soldiers in a CH-53.  Another US first sergeant was shot in the head.  He died on the plane to Ramstein, but was revived by a Para-Rescue man.  He remains in critical condition.

My unit will deploy another soldier to the sand box.  Not unusual for any Army unit, but unusual in the fact that people don't normally expect "Golden Knights", the Army's show skydivers, to deploy direct from the air show circuit to the war zone.  You should be proud of the quality of Special Forces, Rangers, and paratroops your country produces.

A dear friend of mine sent me a truly memorable present this Christmas with this card:


A piece of everyone who ever taught me anything about soldiering has made this trip with me.  I consider you part of that very august group.  I thought Old Glory would be a good way for me to say thanks.

Your friend, Joe."

Packed with the tri-folded flag was this nice paper:

"This American flag, presented to (my name) was flown over the Special Operations Coalition Headquarters,

Kandahar, Afghanistan,

during Operation Enduring Freedom"

24 years of fatigue, frustration, joy, boredom, disgust, panic, exhiliration, and pride came rushing back in that package.


Soldiers from the 82nd are deploying to the sand box with one rack-grade M14 per squad with an ACOG sight.  7.62 rules.

I love this board and the discussions that come up (who'd a thunk three deep-diving submariners, including two Trieste drivers?).  Businessmen, cops, soldiers, hunters, researchers, students, pilots, sub drivers, farmers, teachers, musicians, manufacturers, doctors, nurses, optics guys, mathematicians, chemists, metallurgists, water technicians, firemen, HAM operators, paramedics, pharmacists, lawyers, rocket scientists--you name it, they've probably visited the board (in good times and bad).  Americans to Brits, Finns, Norges, Germans, Ozzies and Kiwis, even a Russian (briefly).

Someone on the Left Coast asked me why I thought we should be fighting a war with ANYONE.  I answered, "Because I didn't invite ANYONE to hijack our planes and fly them into OUR buildings.

To all out there on the board, Best Wishes for the New Year.  Thanks for your prayers and hopes for our soldiers in Harm's Way and deploying in the very near future.

Sinister Dave <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 02:40:34 (ZULU)

Les - Long Action 308.  Yes the M24 is a long action 7.62m (.308).  Works fine when the rounds are pulled all the way to the rear when loading.  Will work when you do not but it increases the chance of a jam.

Dave - Worked with 30 of those troopers on Bragg with the M14.  Gave classes from marksmanship and weather, through the care and feeding of the M14.  Played games out to 600 meters with them in iron sights for their edification.  They were quite pleased with hits on target at that range.

Got to go for now, HOld Hard guys.


Rick <>
Fayetteville , NC, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 04:39:45 (ZULU)

More deployments:

Intelligent speculation about the state of play in the NK situation:

Starve NK out?

Another grown-up recommends selling nukes to Japan and SK.  Japan's economy is about a thousand times larger than NKs.  They could afford a thousand times better nukes.  Anyone who has read Japan's history takes them little dudes real serious.

Watch Taiwan.

MK-4:  Yep.  The hits just keep on coming.

Ancient Chinese curse:  "May you live in interesting times."

CDC' <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 04:51:07 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon,

K Town,  yes, Kenosha.

Don't worry on the slab. We don't even bat an eye till 15 plus over. Even then,  there's always occifers indescretion!

Incoming mail,  no attachies.

Mr. Moore,  Thanks,  Will check into that Glock thing.


Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
K town, WI, US of A - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 05:11:21 (ZULU)

Thanks for the feedback guys!........another M24 clone will be born soon!


Les <>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 05:14:36 (ZULU)


As long as Les brought up making changes in his stick, I got a question too.

Anyone know if Steyr makes a Badger/MK IV type scope mount rail for the receiver top for their long action like they make for the short actions?

Picked up a nice factory rail for the top of my .376 and would like to put similar on my .30-06.

Strictly hunt weapons but I'd like to get rid of the the Loopy std mounts. Heck, the rail even has 20 moa built into it.


Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
K Town, WI, US of A - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 05:49:12 (ZULU)


If your LA .30-06 Steyr rifle is a SBS, I think the action is drilled and tapped with a pattern that is the same as a Browning A-Bolt LA.  I think DD Ross makes the bases for Steyr, not completely sure.

If it is a Professional series, or a Model "M", then you are pretty limited on what is available for you.  Choose Warne over Conetrol.  Trust me, the Conetrol will let you down.

Great to see another Steyr shooter here!


Les <>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 05:59:54 (ZULU)

Rick and Dave, always feel like I ought to be holding my hat in my hands while thinking out what I'm tapping. You guys, giving out that antique to modern combat troops? Now what are you thinnin'? No, never mind, I already completely understand. Hopefully, so will everyone short of McNamara, who wouldn't understand the left-shoe-right-foot concept without dollar signs attached. To both of you guys, my respect and best wishes, may you both take a turn messing up Andy's Dad's ideal end -make him wait in line!, and that baby of Brittany Speers will need a paternity test LOL. Just out of curiousity though, what kind of spares are they being fielded with? Since I've caught that trigger and / or hammer pins and such have been breaking, infrequently, but it does happen, from a steady diet of heavies, are they getting drop in replacements for just in case? Or are they just getting standard 147's, so no worries? And what's the good scoop on set-up with the ACOG? I've heard that they're not easy to get right. "7.62 rules." How much more concise could it be? I hope someone told them how it's not as reliable, accurate, sturdy, efficient, or light as their other stuff. Also hope there's more where those came from, I've got a gut feeling there will be plenty of requests for them.

Joe, "coyotes begging for nirvana"? Sounds like you're primed for the desert too, although I'm not used to hearing them referred to as coyotes.

Speaking of coyotes, Bill, I know you're out there. You know you're out there. We both know you're being mystically drawn to the uttered word "coyote". If you don't say hi here quick, I'm going to send an e-mail off to you, the kittywhacker, and Bruce, and you're all going to work out discontinued Browning low walls versus Ruger number ones with custom hangers chambered for fireballs. No, hornets. That's a threat to the kittywhacker and the husband of the child bride too.

Chris, LMAO! How do you really feel about it?

Moe, that's one big happy birthday going your way. Maybe too big. We might need a fire chief for that cake LOL

Badlands sounds GOOOOOD. Now all I have to do is figure out the details. First detail first, is this a swinging singles scene, or a couples only event? If it's a couples only event, you guys better make offers quick, or else I'll dance with the blue fishnet nylons shooter LOL.

Texas Mike, Druganov. eh-heh-heh, he said druganov. If I didn't know you better, I'd think you made that up as comic relief. It worked too. Every time I think people really can't be that stupid, one pops up to prove me wrong. So was it more insulting to be around someone that stupid, or wondering if he thought you were stupid enough to believe it?

CDC, if you want, I'll volunteer a CD of Hank III (Junior's junior). In my opinion, it's better. Not for you, but for your wife. "The little whack job" LMAO!

Jaeger <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 06:00:02 (ZULU)

Here is what I have thus far on the shooting. A small ammount of speculation is in it, but it is negigable.

A call for a Disturbance came out at the Denny’s . A Detective who job is evidence collection was going to the location for dinner (This is assumption based on how things work around here.) Hears the call and lets the dispatcher know he was out as others were dispatched.

The Detective approached them and things calmed down. The DI (detective) then said lets go outside where we can talk about this a way from everyone. As they are walking out, (order of march Bad Guy in front, DI then girlfriend of BG) the Girlfriend says, He has a gun with him. At this point the BG who is on parole for Attempted Murder immediately tunrs without warning and punches the Detctive in the jaw braking the jaw in several places. Lights out he goes down. BG grabs officers weapon. Turns to bitch at GF. DI gets to his feet and can not think straight and begins staggering around. BG sees him up and starts shooting at him. He is grazed in the head and back while stumbling around.

Second officer (O2 from here on out) arrived hears shots, goes in. O2 was shot as he came in the door. Hit in the Jaw and twice in the lower body. He goes down. BG walks over takes gun number two. Turns his attention to GF or is distracted while O2 wakes up and crawls outside. O2 makes it out into the parking lot when two other officers arrive. They get out of the car two check on him. BG steps out and commences shooting. Both officers are shot several times each.  BG then approaches one officer, the smallest by the way. BG was now out of ammo, and wants officers gun. BG and wounded officer begin fighting. Officer is out weighed by 100 lbs by the way, he weighs about 125 or so. During the fight tiny officer puts big hole where BG’s brain was. Officer now is pooped with his energy spent or draining onto parkinglot and BG dead laying on top of him.

Another officer arrives and goes to check on him. Officer assumes he dead till down officer says, “Get this piece of shit off me”.

Jeager, I'll dance with you.. Haha..

Is this Bad Lands match a team or individual match? Is the date set fer sure for the shoot?

Sleep time..

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 07:44:19 (ZULU)

From the news.( Fox) I see a counceller in NY is trying to ban toy guns.( seems these Dumb ass Euro laws are catching on) He justified it because some criminals use toy guns to hold up and rob,I suspect due to the fact that that this then carries a lesser sentence if they are caught, its not quite armed robbery with a toy gun is it?  

(SKY) I see that 2 girls got killed and 2 got wounded in a shooting in Birimingham ( UK) they are trying to figure out if the shooting was drug gang related and the girls where innocents caught up in the cross fire. Well I wonder if the shooters had gun licences and where using guns that aren't banned. hmmm I'm sure that criminals are politicaly correct too righ?( i'm bieng ironic)  UK gun laws prevent gun crime and the police are always there to protect us and prevent crime?? so Mr Blair, tell that to the families of the dead girls.

Apparently one of the weapons was a Submachine gun. ( can't be , they where banned years ago?) DUH !

I am afraid that this will set off the next wave of anti gun propaganda and control, as if a total ban on legaly held weapons would have prevented anything...When will the politicians and police chiefs wake up.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 10:31:08 (ZULU)

On another note, the first wave of Reservist activation is in progress, a couple of guys here have been notified that they are on hours notice for call up. I'm wondering if they will call up a lazy old cripple like me, (doubt it, unless things go apeshit). What was that, "We live in interesting times" ? that was a favorite quote of an old CO of mine..


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 10:38:32 (ZULU)

Watched the Sniper School special on Discovery Channel last night. A most excellent program.

Questions for Bowcher.......

Do you count the first 2 shots as cold bore, or just the first?

Why so much night firing? Would appear that you could really get waxed in your hidey hole with the muzzle flash lighting up some bad guys night vision toys.

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 10:43:11 (ZULU)


According to the news, the government are putting through legislation that they propose to amend in order to tackle armed crime in responce to the recent murders.  They are proposing a minimum 5 years for anyone carrying a weapon.  I bet that'll get the crims, druggies and gangsters quaking in their shoes.


Jon Beardsley <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 12:00:31 (ZULU)

Kevin, you have mail. N/A


Now I see. I hadn't looked at it from a resale viewpoint. Your analogy with the boys, booze and keys made it all to clear.


I wondered how long it would take. Bastards!


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 12:01:05 (ZULU)

Mike D.

You have mail, clean about, 12K. ballistic guess. @ 220 gr.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 12:54:13 (ZULU)

Jon, if they would apply the laws they already have and bang people up in the slammer and keep them there then things would be much better, the problem of the"5 yrs minimum"for anyone using a gun,( sorry , weapon) is that it applies to those of us who have legaly owned weapons, who may one day be forced to use one in self defence, just as much as it does to the drug pusher/armed robber. and further more, the Euro politicians are calling everything a weapon. Now i'm all for throwing the book at anyone who harms anyone else without good cause, but where do you define good cause? self defence? giving the asshole a seeing to that just beat your daughter/grandma up? or that just vandalised your car? The law makes criminals out of us all, including Anty Annie who just bought a carving knife and has it in her shopping bag. The current legislation has abandoned all common sense.The law protects the rights more of the criminal than it does that of the victim, in my book, as soon as you commit a crime then you loose all rights. shit bust. Then when they do actualy prosecute some one, he/it /she gets 10 years.. they behave for a while, go see the prison chaplin, and before you know it they are out in 3. Most offend again. I bet you a weeks wages that when they find ( and if) these Birmingham shooters, they have previouse convictions.

Criminals belong in jail.

The mentaly ill belong in an asylum.

Drug testing should be compulsary for benefit recievers and people who work for the state.

You and I belong at Nr 10 Downing street.

You are going to have to teach me how to use this wind meter, i can't find the damn instructions(probably in the cellar like everything else), I've figured the barometer bit out(i think) it dropped like a brick over the last few hours and its just starting to snow(pig weather again, yes !)

I see that Winchester custom shop do a Model 70 in 450 Marlin, costs $2400 ish, now if in can't build myself one cheaper??? a control round feed would be a good idea, .. on the lookout for a cheap base for it.. can you reload me some 450 ammo? if we get the right bits, I could do with some down loaded and subsonic, I figure using 45/70 sub sonic data should be about right, any comments?


PS. I just bought a load of salad oil from Aldi, it isn't taxed as much as diesel is,i'm going to try running on that, freeing up cash for other things like shooting/hunting.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 12:59:20 (ZULU)

Update on San Antonio police shooting.

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 13:31:29 (ZULU)

Can anybody tell me what the heck these files are that are eating my memory? How do I read what they are and how to delete them? Email me offline.

C:\WINDOWS\Temporary Internet Files\Content.IE5

C:\WINDOWS\Internet Logs: .rdb and .ldb

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 13:59:35 (ZULU)


The news guy said 'carrying weapons' as oppossed to 'using'.  Like you say, this could make criminals out of innocent or justifiably frightened/vulnerable people.

Latest thoughts on the murders are they were caught in the middle of a gun battle between rival drug gangs.  The police say they are absolutely positive that local people and even close family/friends of the victims know who shot the girls, but are too affraid to talk.

Somehow I don't think the threat of 5 years is going to stop the likes of these people.


Jon Beardsley <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 14:16:57 (ZULU)


OK the dates ARE set...6-8 June, 2003 at BadLands!

Individual or Team...we ain't decided yet! Maybe a mix!

Again as I stated in my original post...Be prepared for ANYTHING!!!

As they say at Badlands - Come, bring guns, we'll shoot, it'll be FUN!

More information will follow as we get it together.

If you need more information on lodging in the area go to: and cruise their web-site. Map, location of Grandfield are there.

Looking forward to meeting a WHOLE BUNCH OF YOU!!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 14:57:47 (ZULU)

Lock the whole community up then. Birmingham is a S_it hole any way, had a couple of days off a few years ago and had a ride out with my mate Dave in his truck.We stopped at a cafe and parked the truck just round the corner, by the time we had had a bacon sarnie and a cup of tea(there you go again, every time you make me think of tea), local gypsies had the damn truck half unloaded, there ensued a slight disagreement(understatement) and we got out truck re-loaded , bloody scumbags, what the hell they wanted with all them peanuts beats me. Cops came ( the lady at the cafe called em for us), arrested the gits but nuthin ever came of it..

Dave is by the way, after one of those nice airguns i sent you, his missus is buying it as a present for him, she couldn't afford the whole lot and scope mounts etc, so i said I'd go halves with her.. providing they both promise me that they will teach thier two boys ( I'm the God father) to shoot. I figure its worth the investment. Daves step dad and Brother are both gamekeepers. he and i spent may hours hunting when we where teens, there i go again, memory lane. He often comes stalking with me when i'm home, If you n me ever get our Sporting estate rented, I'll bring him along for a week.

You got that wandering zero sorted yet? got any snow? how about you n me making this bad lands shooting match? Ryan Air fly anywhere near there? Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 15:08:43 (ZULU)

Thanks to JEFF HARMON and JOHN(acehigh)

I wanted to take a moment to express my appreciation to JEFF HARMON and JOHN for responding to my recent post on the D.R. concerning 300 Win. Mag ballistics. Guys, the information each of you provided will help me establish some beginning ballistic parameters for my latest project gun. This Rem 700 L/A rifle will wear one of Mike Rock's 1/10 barrels and be bedded-into a McMillan A-4 stock. I wanted to thank you both on the D.R. and will respond to you indivdually by E-Mail (w/NO ATTACHMENTS).

I really enjoy monitoring the postings to the D.R. and I look forward to being able to contribute whenever I can.  The information everyone is so willing to share helps many fellow shooters.  The occasional opinion offered on the D.R. sparks interesting (and frank) discussions.  Thanks again everyone.  

Mike Diorio <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
Palm Harbor, Florida, - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 17:08:42 (ZULU)

For JIM McNABB re: Mike Rock

Jim; Just got off phone with Mike Rock. I mentioned to him you had a posting about your barrel.  He asked me to relay to you that he has finished everything but the rifling on your project.  He will try to complete as soon as possible. Mike also asked me to pass the new phone number at his shop: (608), 862-2357.  From personal experience, I can tell you that Mike or Kim always answer this number unless they are both in the middle of some machining work. Regards.  

Mike Diorio <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
Palm Harbor, Florida, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 17:52:17 (ZULU)

REF Sniper Country Match... I have kitchen pass and will be there barring Texas weather. Jeager put on your dancing shoes.

Update on the shooter from SA he was working as a bouncer. So he was the, I like to fight type to begin with... I will make some corrections some time tomorrow on what I posted. I was slightly out of sequence on part of it. hose of you I e mailed I will send the msg again with the revisions. My info was handed down from person to person tili I got it.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 19:38:52 (ZULU)

From the Winter 2003 "The Drop", the Special Forces Association magazine:

US Army Special Forces Command

The American Legion Magazine recently reported on an award of the Bronze Star, presented by LTG Doug Brown, to Captain John P. Spanogle, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne).  

LTG Brown provided some insight into the war in Afghanistan and the soldiers fighting it.  "In the earliest days of conflict, only a few weeks after the first US Army Special Forces had been covertly inserted into the country, a radio message was relayed to the Army Operations Center in the Pentagon.  It came from a Special Forces captain who had linked up with soldiers of a group of the Northern Alliance."  The message stated:

"We have not slept in four days.  Have not eaten in two days.  Water is running low, and we have only about ten rounds of ammunition per man.

Tonight we attack."

Sinister Dave <>
Fayetteville, North Carolina, - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 19:40:36 (ZULU)

Murphy's Rule for Close Quarters Combat

The front door isn't always shut and locked.

The bad guys aren't the only ones wearing black.

Bulletproof vests aren't.

If you're wounded don't call for the medic, he's busy shooting people.

Double-sided sticky tape isn't really sticky on both sides.

Screaming "FREEZE, FREEZE, NOBODY MOVE" doesn't mean for everyone to panic.

Don't place the muzzle of your weapon under the body armor of the man in front of you.  It puts him in a bad mood.

Flash bangs will ROCK YOUR WORLD.

Your Taclight will never work when you want it to, and it will always work when you don't want it to.

A double tap doesn't require the use of all 30 rounds.

Silenced MP5s aren't.

The MP5SD3 has two roles in CQC: it makes a nice club and it makes a nice club.

Paper targets don't shoot back.  If they do, you came in the wrong door.

During an explosive breech, protect your eyes. You can see better without wood in them.  

There's always a bad guy on the floor behind the couch.

Always shoot the large-breasted target.

Being a tall man in CQC is like being a piece of meat in a tank filled with piranhas.

Your communications equipment will always fail when you have something really important to tell the rest of the assault team.

If you shoot a hostage, claim that you didn't even shoot in that room.

If the above statement fails, blame the least experienced man in the room.

Don't miss the terrorist when you shoot, it pisses off the assault team in the next room.

Terrorists do not carry pro timers, but will probably move faster than you can shoot.

Terrorists don't care how many badges you have or what unit you belong to, they just want you DEAD.

sinister dave <>
- Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 19:54:01 (ZULU)


Does Badlands have any kind of facilities in the way of power/water/etc. for travel trailers and such? How many will the barracks hold? Just curious. Will be there if at all possible. It'll be worth it just to watch Jaeger and Dirty Steve 'cuttin the rug.'

BTW, if anybody saw the news byte of the Badlands facility back during the MD shootings, got a firsthand look at some fine people with a fine organization. The news piece was right on. Not exactly what I expected in todays PC atmosphere. I heard though that the reporter was a VN vet.


Bad situation in San Antone. My prayers to all the LE and families involved.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 20:12:11 (ZULU)

Pete L,

       Not 100% positive, but was informed that toy guns or real, armed robbery is still armed robbery in NY! Years ago they passed a law requiring all toy guns to have a flourescent orange muzzle. It didn't take long for the BG's and juveniles to go to work with the black spray paint.

       So now the LEO has no idea if he's being pulled down on with a firearm or a waterpistol. "Community leaders", I'll bet you know who that means, raised holy hell that "innocent children" were being shot by the police when they brandished their painted toy guns at the LEO.

In my view, let Darwinism run its course. If a kid is stupid enough to pull any kind of gun on a cop he's bound for the welfare rolls as an unemployable if he lives to adulthood anyway. Let them have their toy guns and maybe save the additional tax burden in the future!

My theory on reducing vionent crime,

                                   Don't ban guns - ban DENNYS! We've had murders in the local Denny's parking lot, seem to happen after the bars close, even here in 'dinky little town'.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 20:40:50 (ZULU)

On Toy guns vs Real guns  (Weapons)

A couple o years ago whilst traveling thru a seedier part of town in my 'cruiser', I come to a stop only to notice some young kid walk out from the front porch of his home, carrying, raising and aiming a full size all black M16 at me & my car, from behind.  Holy Moses!  Threw that sucker in reverse, floored it and damn near run down that kid right on his own front lawn. Lucky bugger scampered, more scared than I was, dropping the black painted heavy lime green rubber training rifle his dad had brung home a couple of years ago.

The dad claimed it was from the 'service', contraband, and how sorry he was.

Just like Dirty Steve said yesterday,  immediate response with voilence of action.  Report wouldn't have been much longer than it was anaway. Dumb little shit.


Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
K town, WI, US of A - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 22:32:57 (ZULU)

Folks, recieved this off Roster from a friend of Steve's. Any of you that have been to BadLands know Steve and how kind, knowledgable, dedicated and just plain nice guy he is! Let us see if we can do this small thing for him!!!

Here is the original message:

Wanted to see if you might help me get the word out at Sniper Country that my friend Steve Suttles has been diagnosed with prostate cancer. Steve is a former Vietnam-era Marine Scout Sniper. During his time in RVN Steve was credited with 67 confirmed kills. We worked together as Scout/Sniper Instructors at the NGMTU for several years and he is one of the few people in life that I consider one of my heroes. Even though he recently retired from the National Guard, Steve has always been a Marine wearing an Army uniform. He is one helluva Marine, Sniper, NCO and friend. Steve should be a familiar face for anyone who has attended a course at Badlands Tactical or at the National Guard MTU Scout/Sniper school. Please send cards and letters to Bobby at:

Bobby Whittington

Rt. 1 Box 530

Grandfield, Oklahoma 73546

Have the cards marked Attn: Steve

Thanks folks and let's keep Steve in our prayers!



Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 23:13:28 (ZULU)

 Bolt, you got mail, no att.

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 23:54:52 (ZULU)


Yes, there are places to park RV's here in town, to include here at the BadLands HQ's. Only problem with the HQ's is that we do not have sewer dumps for the RV's. Any help I can provide for rosterians on lodging,etc, just drop me a line. This is going to be fun. Our bunkhouse can sleep about 12 people, but it fills fast, and gets crowded!! For the price that is charged to bunk there, haven't had a complaint yet though!

A note about Steve. Yes, he has been diagnosed with Prostrate cancer. MRI, CT's and all the other test did not detect that the cancer has spread to his lymph nodes. He goes in for surgery on the 13th of January. Doctors will do pathology at start of surgery on lymph nodes, and if it hasn't spread, they will remove prostrate and he will be good as new in about 6 weeks. If it is found to have spread, they will close him up, and he will start chemo treatments. I would really like to walk into his room after he gets out of surgery with bags full of cards! Steve was kind enough to take me under his wing back in 95 and teach me all that he could about sniping, and being a good NCO. Learned alot from him, and still learning from him to this day! I met Steve at the State Sniper Rifle Match here in Oklahoma in 1995, and was fortunate to win it. I asked Steve if he would be willing to train my team up for competition at the Wilson Match and he agreed to do so.There aren't many people that I know of, that would devote EVERY stinking weekend , from May to October,that we didn't have drill, to drive 4 hours from his house to mine, and train me in the art of the rifle, and not charge a stinking dime for doing so, just because he wanted to pass along his knowledge to a willing student! We developed a damned good friendship from that, one that I will cherish for the rest of my life!

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 00:04:44 (ZULU)

***** edited *****

RE: Steve Suttles


>>>>>>A note about Steve. Yes, he has been diagnosed with Prostrate cancer. MRI, CT's and all the other test did not detect that the cancer has spread to his lymph nodes. He goes in for surgery on the 13th of January.....I would really like to walk into his room after he gets out of surgery with bags full of cards!<<<<<<<

I've not had the pleasure of meeting Steve, but I hope to soon. Prayers are outgoing and "Good to Go." Use the Badlands address? If so then I'll let you post it. I assure are on the way. RIGHT EVERYBODY!!!


I've copied this from your website and hope you don't mind me posting it here:

STEVE SUTTLES - SUTTLES career in marksmanship began at age 16 in the NRA indoor smallbore youth program. SUTTLES entered the U.S. Marine Corp in 1968, and went on to graduate from their Sniper School before deploying to Vietnam in 1969. To date, SUTTLES still holds the record for the longest shot made by a bolt rifle in that conflict (1250 yards). SUTTLES graduated from the Basic Combat Intellegence Course in Norfolk Va. SUTTLES applied for and was selected for embassy duty, but opted to start a civilian career. In 1983, SUTTLES became active Oklahoma Army National Guard and is currently the NCOIC of a unit in the Oklahoma Army National Guard, and teaches at the National Guard Bureau's Scout Sniper School in Little Rock, Arkansas. SUTTLES established the Oklahoma National Guard Sniper School at Camp Gruber, Oklahoma in 1999. SUTTLES is also an accredited instructor at the Ft. Sill Field Artillery School, in field artillery survey and forward observer. SUTTLES is an avid shooter and international competitor. In his spare time Steve enjoys hunting and fishing.


Semper Fi, Marine. May your battle be over before it starts.



MK4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 00:37:47 (ZULU)

To All:

I have had the privilege and honor of meeting Steve Suttles and Bobby Whittington. Two fine gentlemen whose hands I am proud to have shaken.

I WILL be at Badlands in June. Steve, you better get your ducks in a row by then, we have to surprise another student with the temperature of a freshly-ejected .50 BMG case. Don't take 'em long to examine them, does it?

Wife and I will offer prayers tomorrow, and continue doing so until we hear that all is well.

BTW, the child bride is only 4 years younger than me, but looks so damn good I have to refer to her as the child bride!


The Ruger #3 is the woodchuck killer, got more with it than all other rifles combined. The #1 is also a Hornet, but too unwieldy in the field. No custom hangers on putting a blower on a Nash........and no stinking Fireballs, either, it's Hornets or nothing. They force you to stalk.


Please pass on our best to Steve. Card follows.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 01:08:38 (ZULU)

re: Klein wire cutters

available at Home Depot.  Not the cheapest source, but easy to find.

D2000-9NE is a later generation version of the D213-9NE

Rod Regier <>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 03:47:29 (ZULU)

Mk4 sir,

Yes sir..use the BadLands address:

Bobby Whittington

Rt. 1 Box 530

Grandfield, Ok. 73546

Bruce sir,

We feel the same way. Would love to shoot that .50 again..hope you bring it out. Look forward to having you here again sir!

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 03:51:54 (ZULU)

Jaeger - Unfortunately they do not have spares.  they will be shootng hots and I am hoping that the system holds together.  They were BRAND NEW (red as never fired before) out of the box M14s with all the new gunk still on them.

Bolt - Saw the show as well.  No we do not classify any shots after the first as a cold bore.  However, some weapons and calibers require more rounds to settle them in.  Lucky for the sniper the .308 is not one of the wonder rounds that do require several shots to settle.  Now if you want to see a cold bore, try the .22 cal round at 50 and 100.  The first one will not be anywhere near the next and so on for a couple of the little suckers.  They are fun to shoot though and will hone your marksmanship skills with minimal range requirements and not much money for ammo.  Weapon is still expensive if you buy a gooden but you will have to watch the wind VERY closely and learn from it.  :-)  

As far as muzzle flash, that is shown more due to the nearness of the camera to the weapon.  In rality the flash is mnimal or not at all past about 250 to 300 meters with NVD and is not discernable from about 75 to 85 meters without NVDs.  The so called flash hider that the military uses (shudder) actually causes a worse flash when viewed throught he NVDs.  :-(

OK Guys Hold hard and stay safe!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 04:07:08 (ZULU)

Colonel Sir,

I can validate this for you;

"There's always a bad guy on the floor behind the couch.

Always shoot the large-breasted target. "

Couple decades ago I came home from working night shift intent on shooting the "large breasted" target with my gun..........and did in fact find a bad guy behind my couch ................who it seems had shot her with his own gun several times that very evening..................

Mike inTexas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 04:39:17 (ZULU)

Lots of nice photos from the Army Sniper Association's web site of the 2002 Sniper Competition.  George/Marty, is that the winning AR-10?

Some photos of the Special Forces SPR.

sinister dave <>
- Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 04:55:39 (ZULU)

Sinister, yes that is the Winning AR-10.

I unitized the upper to the lower, Tuned the trigger, Reinforced the factory T handguard and added rails, (It is comming back for a Badger soon) and installed a 22" Rock 5R 1-12 barrel, SSG Shaffer reports that it shoots 1/2 MOA with M118LR.

You in Yuma yet?   Got my C licence last week.


George Gardner <>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 06:59:49 (ZULU)

On shooting "children" with "toy" guns: if some skell is holding a realistic toy gun to your partners head, you gotta shoot. If I knew the skell was holding a BB or pellet gun to my partners head I'd sure as hell shoot. People who catch a BB in the head or even the heart have been known to die from it. In NYC, that kind of call won't enhance your career prospects. The PD ain't that good a job--why do people do it?

wuzzagrunt <>
NY, NY, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 07:51:23 (ZULU)

Left work last night, went home and got showered to get rid of the smell of aftershave and coffee, fed the dog and got my hunting clothes on, off to the woods. It was almost snowing but the flakes where too small to settle, however they made wind determination easy and i could see i was in for a bit of a walk, having to park the car at the southern end of the woods. Got my rusksack slung on my back ( funnny how that is always a nice feeling, like a favourite pair of slippers, but then its not full of rat packs, ammo and tools these days,) began to stalk into the area of the tree stand i was bound for, i could see pretty well in the woods and after hearing something 4 legged pottering about behind a thicket i stalked into it, got to about 25 yards and managed to see what it was, a deer as i had suspected, retraced my steps back top the track, the deer didn't know i was there, when i got up wind of it, it caught my scent and began to bark at me, then skedaddled. I continued my stalk, pausing every couple of steps to scan all around with the bino's, i could see where pigs had been rooting up the centre of the track pretty heavily. got to the tree stand without seeing anything else, the woods are well waterlogged at to moment, which makes stalking easier, all the leaves on the ground are soft. I'd been up the tree stand about an hour and a deer passed to my rear, i noticed that its movement where quiet loud, checket the temp on the wind watch, sure enough -5 C, temp had dropped rapidly, and the forest floor had started to freeze. The wind was blowing pretty hard, first in one direction then another, About midnight i caught a faint sound of a grunt, ahha ! then movement, grunt, movement, first one pig then another, then another, all at the corn bait in front of me, I studdied them a few seconds through the bino's, long enought to count 8 pigs, all the same size more of less, obviously a litter born late in 2001 and all still together, no sign of a mature sow, she is most probably running with a new litter. I decided I'd shoot the smallest of the group. Shouldered the rifle slowly and picked out the one. Decided as i was using the 308win and didn't want a tracking job on my hands ( it was after midnight and i was at work again at 07.00) that a head shot was appropriate. Shot the pig just between the ear and the eye, it dropped immediately and the others took off. I waited about 15 minutes and then packed up my kit and went to the pig. Approaching with caution, rifle shouldered (you never know and i'm not wanting a goreing) anyhow, the pig was good and dead, a fair sized immature sow, larger than she had looked on the hoof.I took a couple of photos and set about getting her cleaned out, I decided i'd leave all the guts on site, might be able to shoot a fox at them tonight. I began to open her up, she was in superb condition, healthy, no signs of any parasites or disease, with a good layer of fat, obviously the pigs have been feeding well this year. Split her open and sawed through the crntre of the ribs and through the pelvis, got all the guts etc out. Now the work starts i though, began to grag the pig to a place i could get to with the car, quite a way i had to drag because the woods are so boggy right now ( I NEED a jeep) took me an hour to get her to where i could pick her up. Then stalked back to the car. Drove to the place, ( all the time thinking jesus i hope i dont get stuck) got the pig strapped on the game carrier that fits the tow hitch. Back to the cold store to get everything washed off and the pig hung up. She weighed out at 60kg, a good weight for a young sow. It was then i had my bright idea, what i need is a wheel barrow, I can leave it in the woods, cammoed up out of the way so no one steals it, that would save all the dragging, and providing i get one with one of the balloon type moon buggy wheels, i should be able to get in and out to most places. Now am i getting lazy, or am i bieng sensible and trying to avoid back ache? Any how, a successfull night, I bet the pig makes some great chops. Back home , 3 hours sleep and then up for work. Here i am, getting exited about going hunting again tonight. If it would only bloody well snow !!


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 08:03:07 (ZULU)

Ref : Steve Suttles

I am glad I've had [so far] a couple weeks of learning from him.

I've put out the word to a couple of folks, and will get a card going myself.  I posted a bit of related info from here at

Best, John

John Leveron <>
Mid-MO, U.S.A. - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 08:10:32 (ZULU)

Just getting a chance to get up to speed on the postings after spending a few days in the desert doing some play time running and gunning.

Dirty Steve- A little late but the Beretta 96's are generally a good pistol.  The problems I've seen around here tend to be trigger spring breakage and trigger bars bowing.  The agency that uses them the  most around here is the USBP.  They use some really hot Remington 155gr stuff....that's spelled with a capital H.  It's like somebody really wanted a 10mm but had to use the 40 so they just stuffed a bunch more powder in the case.  It's way too hot and I'm sure it's causing the bigest problems, so if the 40 your looking at is BP gun it's probably tired.  My Italian 96 Centurian has been a very good pistol to me for several years.

Fatboy (Chris)- The Kimber "1911's" are OK in both generation versions.  The guts need a little work.  If you get a good deal on one I recommend calling brownells and ordering/installing a Colt sear and disconnector.  They are made better hands down.  My Kimber Pro CDP had a cast sear and bent disconnector from the factory.  The Colt parts fixed it up and the trigger got much better.

Rob Opp- I used a Ferrel tapered base for my Savage 110FP 223.  For the $$$ it was pretty good.  The corners were a little to pointy and sharp but I fixed that right up with a little elbow greese.  The fit to the receiver was very good and my MK4 rings mounted solidly.  I have been happy with it so far.  This is my varmint gun and I shoot/abuse it a lot, with no base complaints to date.  No info on the rings I haven't seen any yet.  Ken Ferrel is a heck of a nice guy to do business with or just to chat with too.  Good folks.

CDC- If memory serves the M16A4 = the M16A2 but with a removable carry handle.

Well, while I was in the desert this weekend my M40A1 came and I wasn't here to sign for I'll get it from UPS on Monday and have it up and runing for the range on Wenesday.  Can't wait to try it out.  

I sure put my department issued, old war horse, black gun, M16A1 through the paces this weekend.  I'm surprised it didn't actually burst into flames with as much time as it spent on AUTO.  Ummmmm  shoot fast..Joe like =)

Take care everybody,

Joe S.    

Joe S. <>
Dago, PRC, US of A - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 10:02:08 (ZULU)

>>>Some photos of the Special Forces SPR.<<<


Why is the SPR carrying a lit reticle LR M3?  Doesn't that cause problems when the other side is using NVD in low light situations?


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 13:12:35 (ZULU)

Bruce and Bobby both have expressed my thoughts on Steve. I've only had the priviledge of having Steve teach me twice - I KNOW Steve FOLLOW THROUGH, FOLLOW THROUGH - see I haven't forgotten!! Anyway I will be looking forward to June and seeing you again! Prayers always and card to follow!!

Bruce, e-mail coming your way.


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 13:57:00 (ZULU)

Sumpin I don't understand about camo'd AR's..... Why don't people go ahead and camo those stainless barrels and black receivers? Spend lots of time camoing the furniture, but not the big black and silver blotches??????

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 15:05:10 (ZULU)

Pete L.,

I've noticed that all your hunting is done at night, something that for the most part is verboten here in the states.  Just wondering what size objective lense and/or scope you find useful for night shooting?


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 15:51:29 (ZULU)


  My little M4 wannabee is O.D. from buttplate to FH including the Aimpoint. A few tan blotches here & there- tough for me to do the optics as I switch around alot. Sometimes I use velcro pads and burlap strips wrapped around the optics until I am sure.

  Unlike most you see, my mags match the cammo.



Bill Moore <>
Goodview, VA, USA USA USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 17:16:38 (ZULU)


The only company I know of doing the complete camo like you suggest is Armalite.  The complete job adds about $200 to the price of the rifle, but they even do the scope mount when you get a flattop model.  What they do is dip the entire rifle using a film over water technique. It's the same way camo is applied to factory shotguns. The others just do the furniture because it's cheaper.

Going to the Shoot at the Badlands in June.  Has anyone flown lately  that is non-LE with rifles,ammo, and gear?  I can imagine the field day with security and the paperwork involved?  Any help would be appreciated.

Anyone out their used the EOR HUD sights?  Would like some feed back.

Thanks & Take Care

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 17:32:39 (ZULU)

Don,, its a Schmidt & Bender!!!!, infact they both are. I've got a PMII 3-12x50 on my 308 (i swap it between two 308's and a 30-06) and ive got a 2.5-10x56 on my Marlin 1895M. The big scope on the lever gun looks a little odd i suppose, kinda like a trailer hitch on a Porsche, but what the hell, if i had a Porsche i'd tow a trailer with it. I will at some point(when i've got some cash spare) swap the 2.5-10 on to the sporter 308 and get a 1.5-6x42 for the Marlin. I usualy use the scopes set on x8 at night( I undid the rubber thing on the magnification adjustment and re-glued it so that it is uppermost when set on x8.makes it easy to get right. I'm never shooting far in the dark, so the x6 would do just fine. Darkness is what seperates the men from the boys in the scope world, S&B, Zeiss,Swarovski, Kahles are the runners here. Personaly i don't see the need for a 56mm Obj, 50 is big enough and 45 0r 48 would be better. Quality optics/glass count for more, as far as spotting the pigs Steiner Bino's are excellent for the price, Leica,Zeiss and Swarovski may be a little better in the optics, but the Steiners are tough as old boots and i have never had an ocasion that i couldn't see something in the Steiners that i'd have been able to see with something else(bar NVD). I'd probably get away with cheaper optics on my patch here, due to the ambient light from the damn airport, but when i go down to the Odenwald, its as dark as a...., thats when i'm glad i spent some money on good optics.

Pig shooting here is allowed at night, infact apart from driving em, its the only way, nocturnal sods that they have become. Deer are not to be shot at night. Foxes etc. no probs.

Some one over in the formed DDR got him self in the shit lately, he shot a damn Moose (european Elch) a once in a lifetime event of a moose following ancient migration trails from the Carpathians north west and it gets clobbered. We also have a Wolf not to far from my home that has wandered over from Poland, also apparently on ancient trails beween Poland and Spain, it seems to have made its home in an area of state forest and is causeing quite a lot of discussion.

I do hunt during the day, its just not very productive with nocturnal pigs. Cant wait for some snow, then i can track them into the thickets , get my dog to spring em and see what we can do.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 17:45:01 (ZULU)

Bruce Robinson

   Here I sit watching it snow like crazy and you go and bring up varmint rifles!!!!!!!!! Is this cruel or what?????

   My Hornet ammo for the comming season of varminting is all loaded, as is .223..Working on .222 #1 for the Queen to shoot this year. As soon as I get a 12X Leupold in the mail and some weather suitable for testing will load up 500 rounds for her.

  gotta go sweep the deck again!

 outa here

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 17:47:38 (ZULU)

Titan, travelled from Sacramento, California with an M1911A1 (checked) in my suitcase, and no hassles from the airline or TSA.  Didn't move ammo, though.

Sinister Dave <>
- Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 17:49:48 (ZULU)

Markwell, here i sit watchin it "not" snowing, now that is cruel, even the weather has become a pascifist in Germany. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 17:51:27 (ZULU)

Rick- Watched the Sniper School show as well.  I thought the scopes they were using were for night firing, but they used them all the time.  What kind of scope are they?  Are they as good or better than the Leupold?  They seemed to bulk up the rifle a lot more than Leupolds,making the rifle and scope harder to conceal.

HDR <>
OK, - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 17:53:03 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln

  We had a pacifist in the Alleghenies once.  Never did hear what happened to him.

outa here again

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 18:07:23 (ZULU)

Guns on planes???

The rules in the past have been that the guns had to be in LOCKED cases, and checked in to be loaded in the planes cargo space.... but now (as of 1/1/03) the airport folks say that checked on luggage must be UNLOCKED so it can be searched... and they will break the locks on locked luggage.  Can anyone make sense out of this?

Does anyone know of a firearms friendly airline?



CatShooter <>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 19:12:52 (ZULU)

CURRENT Iraq ops.  Our guys are already at it.  Got this off Drudge.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 19:28:17 (ZULU)


Does this mean youse might fly again?  You ever get any word on the trian service where you can load up the jungle truck?


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 19:33:42 (ZULU)

Airplanes -  Thanks Dave and Lito.  I called Southwest and United.  Both confirm what you said Sinister that as long as it is in your checked Luggage and inspected at check-in for the FAA approval and stickered it's Ok. After inspection the case is locked and sealed buy the Airlines.   If the Weapon goes in with other stuff they inspect the entire bag and it then can be locked and sealed.  Sounds like the same proceedure is in place as when I last flew out hunting in 2000. Both Airlines suggested no ammo, or to put the ammo in a seperate bag, with which the same proceedure is followed.  I was told by both that since they do the firearm inspection noting really has chnged with respect to transport of firearm.  They also warned me to carry on all film, computer, digital cameras, and any other items that can be damaged by strong electromagnetic radiation.  What really surprised me was both seemed very eager to answer questions about this, flight schedules, and offered discounts on rental cars, etc.   Maybe the fear of going broke has changed their attitude a little.

Sinister or Master Rick -  Do either of you know what lower Recievr the SPR rifles are being built on.  I talked with Mike Rock yesterday and he gave me a rundown on the rest ofthe system but wasn't sure which lower was being used.  Is the .270 x45 tround worth a damn if you can coment?  Thanks

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 19:43:28 (ZULU)

Titan and others coming to BadLands for the Sniper Country Match

Airlines are picky, as some of you know. Some airlines allow you to transport up to 11lbs(gross weight) of ammunition, others only allow you to ship 200 rounds in original factory boxes. I have no first hand knowledge of this, this is just information that I have obtained from students that have traveled here via airlines in the past 18 months.

What I would recommend contestants doing is to ship the ammunition here, via UPS or Fed Ex, with a shipping label like below.

BadLands Tactical Training Facility

Att: (Your Name) Sniper Country Match

Rt. 1 Box 530

Grandfield, Oklahoma 73546

Also, contact BadLands and let us know that you have shipped the ammunition, and upon receipt of the ammo, we will store it, and notify you that it has arrived.

Will that help anyone out?

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 20:02:12 (ZULU)

For those going to the Badlands I'd recommend sending your ammo by FEDEX Ground.  My brother travels from California to Perry every year, and it's been the most reliable/hassle-free way we could think of.  Expensive, but you don't have to worry about shipping ammo in decent amounts/weights (i.e., like 1,000 rounds of 5.56 or 7.62).

Titan, you'll be glad to know the SPRs I've seen were built on -- wait now, here it comes -- recycled M16A1 receivers!  I know some had Milazzo-Krieger triggers (semi-only), and both Knight and Accuracy Speaks (select-fire).

sinister dave <>
- Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 20:29:11 (ZULU)

Ref: 6.5X284

Shot my new Gardner rifle today.....sweet. sub .4" groups @100yards.  First load was 47 grains of IMR4350 w/139 Scenars it clocked 2,820 fps.  Plenty of room to improve that.  I'll add a full grain and see what happens.  I simply could not be happier.  Thanks again George.

Ref: Flying with Firearms

I've done it dozens of times with no problem.  Don't know about new procedures.  I'll have to ask.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 20:33:41 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

Time to bring up a variation on an old theme.  Custom smithed 1911's.

OK, so I have a blued Springfield "loaded" I bought in '98 and I have less than 500 rounds through her.  I've decided that I'd like to have some "work" done on her.  I really only take her to the range although I'd like to get started in IDPA and if I ever move out of this God forsaken state, it'll function as my CCW piece as well.  Now I'm planning on a budget of $500 (+ or -...who am I kidding, it'll probably be alot more "+").  Anyway, I know a reliability package is probably the most important right?  Then a trigger job, match bushing, barrel blah blah.  The question is...What are the things you would have done (let's try to keep it under $1000 too) and by WHOM?  I posted this question on the 1911 forums and got some good answers, but I thought I like to hear from some of youse guys as to what/who you'd recommend.

Here's my list of potential 'smiths...

Scott Mulkerin

Chuck Rogers

John Yanek

John Harrison

Don Williams

Vic Tibbets

Ned Christiansen

Ted Yost

Jim Garthwaite

I emailed a bunch of them and they all seemed very nice and professional.  I also emailed Larry Vickers to get his suggestions and he said he'd only recommend three of 'em (if you want to know, email me.  I don't think it would be in good taste for me to just post it.).

I've never delved into the world of custom 1911's so I'm really nervous about it.  I only have one (1911) and I don't want to screw it up.  So whatcha tinnk fellas????



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 20:53:04 (ZULU)


         Many thanks for the links to the photos.


      You didn't ask me, but I'm opening my mouth anyway:-) Many of the SPR's have been made on old M16A1 lowers. A local civilian contractor has a several million dollar gov't contract and has been updating many of these lowers. Some are coming from Basic Training centers, others from NG and Res. units. This company (CAPCO) leases our club range for testing one day per week, and we are in the process of building a new 600m range with the proceeds.

Back to Football,


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 21:13:26 (ZULU)

Sarge and Bobby,

Yep, Child Bride and I will drag the Fifty to Badlands (she's shot it and pronounced it "a rush"). Got a few thou rounds in a horsetrade and need help turning 'em into empties for 'lito. Bobby, you can schedule the trigger time for interested parties after the match (and quit calling me "Sir", I feel old enough already!)


Hope you're coming.......I'll bring the green chile for your cheesburger!

Very Best to All,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 22:32:37 (ZULU)


Looks like lots of you characters are signing up for the SC match. Self-included, provided I can get the state to let me go...

Will start getting my gear together and practicing a bit more...this is gonna be a hoot!

Rich, on 1911's. To many folk look at them as toys and not tools. I recommend the minimun needed to get it to the "tool" state. I'd go with Heinie fixed sights(tritium, your choice), dehorning, reliability package, and a high grade trigger, sear, and hammer. Beavertail grip safety, as needed. Talk it over with your 'smith.

There are three on your list who's work I've seen. Not to say the others aren't good. Check you local IDPA guys. Often they have excellent "no name" 'smiths associated with the club and they are a bit cheaper. Also, if you have a problem they are local.

Kevin, enjoy the new 6.5 X .284. Your's shot like mine did, when new...then it got better...;-)

Bobby, thanks for the Badlands information. This is going to be a hoot for all involved.

"Piggy" Pete, Congrats! A nice are you going to process the critter? Bacon, sausage, smoked or...?

You must be like me...I hunt a lot, alone. Makes my bride crazy. I LOVE it. If I screw up a stalk I got no one to blame, but your's truely.

To bad we can't do pig in a pit at Badlands...

Bruce, .22 Hornets...great fun guns. Had a Ruger #3 and sold it. BAD move. It was fun. How does your #1 Hornet shoot?

Don't know if "she who must be obeyed" would want to come to Badlands. She's not a big shooter...

All for now...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 23:38:06 (ZULU)

Mike Miller,

If you have time to hit the DR before departure tomorrow,,, Have a safe trip man.  Bring your Undudely ass back in one piece.  Stalkin' the Blonde Ghillie around with a limp just don't look right ;))


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 23:43:51 (ZULU)

Hello hawgs....haven't had time to get on the Roaster lately.  Interesting stuff.  I caught up somewhat a couple days ago before the recent archive, and caught up the rest today.  Will most likely be awol again for awhile.

Painting sticks.....My first attempt sucked ass and looked like a coral snake.  I got a fast edumacation in camo from the hawgs.  Random is good.  "Busy" is bad.  Do light colors first.  The hogs covered it pretty well, the archives are loaded with ideas too.  KISS principle worked best for me as far as pattern.  I used Hunter Specialties spray, it dries very matte.  Testors dries very flat as well and they have a hell of an assortment of camo colors.

In the end, it's not exactly a work of art and will get drug around and such anyway, so you don't have to be too picky.  The ability to grab the can for a quick touch up is nice.  Choosing appropriate colors, randomness, and simplicity seem to be the keys.  Don't make it look "busy", or it will stick out at distance.  

Most importantly, if you hang the stick from something to spray it.....make sure you do it securely so you don't have to hear "keee-rash!"  :-O  By the way, this incident ended my use of normal Loopie two piece turn in bases and rings!

There is an outfit here in WI called Lauer Custom Weaponry that has a propietary camo process.  It's very tough and durable.  They do the whole weapon, every part of it, in any pattern you desire.  The AR and FAL rifles I saw were nicely done, and Steve Lauer seems to be a good guy, I met him last summer.  URL is  Drawbacks are cost, and reality LOL.  Spray paint is so much easier, tough enough for the job, cheap, and easily changed.

Steve sorry to read about the shootout.  What a CF.  Man, I am convinced that there are a lot of people in this world that are just taking up space and wasting oxygen.  Distance really is your friend.

***Count me in on the Badlands match.****  I need to get cracking on reserving a bunkhouse spot.  Unfortunately, my sticks went away back in September so the only shooting I have done is clays with my little 20Ga single.....if the Sheriff has to take that, it's no big loss.  You know what that means.  I did rock pretty far back on my heels the last few weeks but have now pretty much returned to the upright position. ;-)  I could have ordered a SC/Gardner stick for what the damn lawyer and everything has cost me.  That pisses me off no end.

The situation with NK is something that we sure didn't need.  I had the privilege of dinner with Joe M and Mrs. Joe M in September and some of the discussion pertained to exactly the things that are going on right now.  Unfortunately, some of it also pertained to the reduced ability to deal with it.  Pretty prophetic there Joe!  Like Dan Taiwan.  I really believe that in the next five years there is going to be a big realignment in the world's political landscape.  My own humble opinion is that we need to figure out how to involve the Rooskies to gain every possible advantage, and do it now.  The assistance we gained from them in A-stan is a good start.  I read somewhere that they have thrown in with us diplomatically in the NK situation but I haven't had time to dig into it.  They do have China's flank, even if they don't have much military capability other than nuclear deterrence.  China is the real issue and threat IMHO.  It would be nice if we could provide some timely training assistance to the Russian ground forces to improve thier efficiency.  ;-)

Joe, sorry I didn't get the message in time.  Whassup the 11th and 12th?  Got plans?  Thanks for the invite, gimme a call and let me know this week, if you are free I'll come up next weekend instead...

Happy New Year everyone!  Good wishes for you all.  Godspeed and sincere thanks to the troops (and the trainers!! ;-)).

Geoff M <>
USA - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 00:07:54 (ZULU)

I flew up north on the saturday after 9/11 with my M1A and my Kimber pistol.  Flew Southwest.  No problems with the airline.  The people at check in don't usually know weapons, and you have to educate them about how to check a weapon to insure that it is unloaded.  If you say something like, you don't shoot much do you?  You will get that look.  If you are married, you know the one.  

On custom additions, I would suggest an ambidexterous safety, cause you don't always get to shoot with your strong hand, or you could be cursed and be left handed, like me.

Question,  Is it possible to look down a barrel at the rifling with the naked eye and a light, and tell what type of rifling the barrel has?  By rifling I mean cut, or button, or forged.  And if it is, what do you look for?

John <>
Liberty, TX, - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 01:24:54 (ZULU)

1911 smiths- Here is one I have used, Alex Hamilton. Well actually he gave me a free barrel and fitting included. I won a gift certificate he donated. His work was first rate. Looking at the guns hanging on the wall is a bad thing, they make you lust after them. They are the ones on the web site but now some are dusty. Here is his link.

SC Shoot, are we all gunna sit around a campfire singing Kumby-ya. Roasting smores and cats?

Andy's Dad enjoy that new toy. Are you bringing it with out for the SC Shoot?

FatBoy, When Mike gets back I better be able to out run him, Haha.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 02:51:09 (ZULU)


If Mike is back from 'Stan in time,, you and he can do a 200 yard sprint stress test.  You with your red pumps and he with his baby blues ;))  I don't figure anyone would wanna eat anything after that though ;))


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 02:54:10 (ZULU)

Moe - The lit reticle is an affection of some of the shooters.  I personnaly hate it as much as I hate the PVS-10 but some like it.  I have found that the reticle is picked up by NVDs and half the time the guys turn the reticle up enough to see and then they lose the target.  Simple off center vision and and viola (opps Frog talk) and there is the target and reticle.  The final recommendation was without the lite reticle.  Oh well.

Bolt - I guess becuse some guys are afraid to paint the reciever and barrel.  There is some tape from the UK (the Royal Marines uses it) that is great for camo.  Peels right off and holds paint real well.  Has a stock number and if I can remember I will get it for you guys, if on of the in country guys don't before me.

HDR - The scope is the PVS-10 and it is a day night scope.  It is a pig of a scope(see comment to Moe :-)) and has caused no end of troubles.  Anytime you try to get one thing to do two it seems to get big and fragile.  We are not using the pig and have set a contract for a diffrent and seperate night scope for our snipers.

Titan - Lower is the old M16 lower.  This prevents the trigger pull changing with each trigger pull through the burst cam.  Also gives a good full sized solid stock.  Hmmmm, guess that was ansered by Sinister and Alan, oh well, confirmation.  :-)

Hold hard guys and Mike keep your head down, you are getting to be an old fart now you know.


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 03:00:48 (ZULU)


How do you're guys like the Mono-Loc/PVS-14 set up?  It seems like it would work well, with no shift in zero as compared to the SIMRAD, but it pushes ya WAY back off the stock if the scope isn't moved forward.  A guy from LRH was commenting about this set up with a NF scope, and how the reticle can be set so dim the naked eye can't see it and probing NOD's don't pick it up, but the PVS-14 could, and mil ranging with the mildot reticle is possible at night with an almost ambient system.

Kevin(Andy's Dad),

I told you so ;)))Welcome to the cult!!!

So how'd you like the recoil?  What was the air/ammo temp when you tested?  I picked up the H4350 to see if the "Extreme" coating would work as well as it did with Varget.  The H4831SC is about 80 fps different from 60 to 105 degrees, and the pressure at 105 causes a pierced primer every one and a while.

I shoud have my tube JR tube tomorrow, and the reamer by Thursday.  Then,, I get to wait 6 months to find a GD prone stock.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 03:19:10 (ZULU)


B'town - IN

You have Mail - No Attachments !



BearMan <>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 03:30:27 (ZULU)

I'm going to have to disagree with John about the ambi safety on a carry 1911.  It adds bulk, fragility and cost.  Complicates disassembly.  KISS.

We make this six-year-old, nut-cake son of mine eat his veggies by telling him that, if he doesn't, we won't let him listen to his Hank Williams CD.  He went to bed singing "...take these chains off my heart and set me free..."  

My wife forbade "Hey good lookin'".  It was REALLY getting to her.

What does this kid hear that we don't?

CDC' <>
- Monday, January 6, 2003, at 04:30:34 (ZULU)

Quick late night post.

Chris - Changes the stock position radically.  Not bad for the spotter scope as we have bought them for that very reason.  No need for the illuminated reticle if 14 is attached to the rear, you can see the reticle fine.  Just the long reach to the weapon.  H&S Precision makes a stock specifically for that set up and makes it feel better but it still does not feel right.  We are putting the NVD in front of the objective lens and it works fine.  No zero change and goes on and off easy.  The mod PVS-17 worked well too but the recoil causes bruised foreheads. :-)

CDC - Disagree on the ambi safety, especially for a lefty.  Have one on my 45 and it works fine and never gave me a problem.  Easy one hand sweep of the safety if necessary.

Oh yes, CDC, what your rug rat is hearing is MUSIC,  GOOD MUSIC.  :-)

Hold Hard guys!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 05:15:42 (ZULU)

Jesse, seems one actually got through. You've got incoming in reply. Anyone else out there been trying to get through to me? I'm concerned that my e-mail isn't working properly. I'm 100% Norton protected, and virus free.

John, on the 1911 ambi safeties, I'm with Wes and CDC. Less is more. I tried them, and some work really well, some don't. In the end, the term I would label them with would not be solidly built. Kings gets my nod for best of breed to my knowlege, but the paddles need slimming. In the end, they wind up parts for trade. For a lefty though, I'd think a good off-hand purpose built safety would be the ticket, like the issue item, just on the wrong side. On the rifling, if there's a way, I haven't been able to tell it. My buttoned ones look like my cut ones, look like my factory ones, with just my naked eye.

CDC, so do you ask him why does he drink, and why does he roll smoke? It could always be worse, backstreet boys comes to mind.

And now M-16 receivers are being recycled. That makes a double. One from old Budweiser cans into receivers, and now from that into other receivers. Maybe one day, we'll have a cold one out of them again, after they've become Buick blocks.

--->Geoff M, you've got e-mail incoming.***

Bruce is volunteering green chile for the burgers. If that doesn't double attendance, then you people don't know what good eating really is. Blower on a Nash, HA! Now why is it that you never see those old design Rugers at the gun shows mixed in with all the new chinese garbage, beef jerky, $200 magazines, jewelry, knives, and maybe a pistol or two?

Dave, how do those guys keep the Kreiger Millazo triggers from de-adjusting in the field? I'd think that anything with adjustments would be a no-no for that kind of work, or at least ones without lock nuts of some kind. "Your Taclight will never work when you want it to, and it will always work when you don't want it to." Seems I recall something about not putting your light in your back pocket either; what, you the toothfairy or an angel? You do that for real, you'll wind up one of them! HA!

Rick, had a good talk with a for-real in the know man on the subject of the battle fielded M-14, his take was very similar to what you gave. I kind of thought it odd to not hand out spares in that situation, but he didn't at all. The only question he had was if the ones your guys are taking have the too-much-fun switch. I'm guessing they do, if they're NOS? His statement about the heavies were that in real use, it takes a bunch, and more than what those guys should see in a long time.

Mk4, don't look too hard. I was told that no jitterbugging would be allowed, although I'm a boot scooter by nature. I was also informed that I wouldn't be leading. The thing that really griped me was the whole "if you scuff my pumps, I'll armwrestle you for the redying fee" fiasco. Well color me silly. Started working on some of the other details this evening, still up in the air, but looking moderately good, especially with Bruce supplying the burger garnish!

Jaeger <>
- Monday, January 6, 2003, at 05:26:32 (ZULU)

Pete L:

I like the S&B 10X42 with no.1 reticle and BDC. It workes better than expected at night. The fast-focus eyepiece makes it easy to adjust for the -2 dioptries night eyevision. 15min extra shooting were I live. Unfortunatly I destroyed this scope on a dark night in the woods. Swarovski makes a 8X50 scope with 30mm tube that looks interesting.

BTW. Do you know a source in Germany for a NIB cheap H&K G3 30mm mount?


Agree on lighted reticles. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. I try to keep my rifles as simple as possible:

No variable scopes,

No electrics inside scopes,

No scopemount bases, (Tikka action)

No rings if possible, (scopes with rails, still undetected by US shooters :-))


TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 08:41:16 (ZULU)

Received an E-mail this morning from webmaster @ snipercountry "Cool Flash, enjoy". I read the DR this AM and didn't see any posting about it so... I deleated it. That way I CAN enjoy my computer.

Pete L:

Congrats on the piggie! I hope to get one soon, although in the states it is frowned upon to hunt at night.

Steve S:

Best of luck with the treatment! I hope to meet you soon. Card goes out today.

Kevin M:

Buy the Klein D213-9NE if you can find them. All the others just have a fancy (expensive) handle coating that you are going to cut off anyway.

George G:

Can't wait to get my hands on the new stick! When is the next payment due? Will the Badger rings be painted tan also?



TonyM <>
FL, US of A!!! - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 13:31:30 (ZULU)


Cool.  I was wondering if they were being used by Army, as all I ever see is pics of the PVS10.  It would seem that the light signiture from mounting the 14 on the front of the scope would be cut down,, but I would have thought that adding lenses in front of the objective would shift the zero.  Glad that it's working out without incodent, as it's a MUCH smaller system than the SIMRAD or PVS10, and can be used for things other than shooting.  Not to mension it isn't as big a lens when ya get Jack Lighted or LCMS'd;))  Good to see someone is spending wisely.

HOPEFULLY the Border barrel will be here today.  Got a reamer en route...  Project "Budget Prone" is under way.  Funny thing is,, it's not turning out to be any cheaper than a standard build.  Ain't life  a kick in the nutz....


Chris <>
- Monday, January 6, 2003, at 13:31:59 (ZULU)

Hi Torf, where have you been hiding?

often wondered about those rails on the S&B's. You don't see them in the UK either. Do they clamp on a dovetail and if so what size? Seems you could save a lot of money going down that route, providing the scope bell clears the barrel.

I'm toying with the idea of putting together a light hunting rifle like a 700 mountain rifle or a Steyr Pro hunter mountain in .308 or .260 with a low mounted S&B 3-12x42 (No7 reticle) on it for deer. Just got to find the money first as my wife keeps spending it on new furniture :-((

Jon B

Still trying to talk "her indoors" into letting me do the DSC stalking course . But she is NOT keen on me shooting Bambi. God knows why not, she's a bloody farmers daughter! May just have to do some other shooting course that happens to be on those same dates. he he. That's if she has stopped shopping and left me any money by then!

I've got to build up the Black Budget again.......

Happy new year all

Mark D

Mark Dougan <>
Pussywhipped, London, UK - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 13:38:16 (ZULU)

How the heck am I going to manage Ken M's adventure in late April/ early May, the Allegheny shoot in late May and the SC match in the summer?

This is shaping up to me one heck of an interesting spring/summer.

medicjim <>
- Monday, January 6, 2003, at 15:58:37 (ZULU)

More deployment stuff and some thoughts from retired Generals.

Iran.  Are we looking at regional war?  I'll assume our contingency plans are all written up.  This is scary.

Pretty funny analysis of al Qaeda corporate strategy.  Especially the last paragraph.

Pray for the boys.

CDC' <>
- Monday, January 6, 2003, at 17:08:22 (ZULU)


 I talked to a buddy of mine the other night and he had read an article on vertical stringing caused by seating depth. I told him I couldn't seat my bullets out any furter becuse of the mag. length.

 He wanted me to try it anyway just to see if it made a difference. I told him I would but was out of 142s and would try it with some 140AMAXs.

 While digging around for them I found 10 140MKs I had not used. When checking them out I found out they would seat to the lands and I still had plenty of room to fit the magazine.

  I went out yesterday and shot at 700yds, in the cold, with a 5 to 7mph cross wind. With the 140MKs I shot a 5 shot into a 4.2" group. The 140AMAXs were better than before but had the wind coming up and got some horzintal spreading but the vertical was within limits.

 I orderd another box of the 140 and 142MKs to test them some more. I hope the 140MKs stay tight on out like they did yesterday. If they do I will use them since I can seat them in the magazine. They shoot about 12"s lower at 700yds. This may be because of the BC difference or a different 100yd impact, I hope its the 100yd zero.

Pat <>
- Monday, January 6, 2003, at 17:34:29 (ZULU)


That article mentioned the very same thing I talked about a few days ago. The "will to win" and a half assed effort to begin with. I know those pansies exist in the planning department but I hope they don't have any decision making authority. Leaving the bulk of your soldiers as back-up makes as much sense as cruising at 35 mph on the interstate cause your car can do 150 if necessary. You're gonna get creamed from behind right outta the gate. I saw or read somethin about that big floating hospital leaving port the other day. Headed for the Persian Gulf? That ship can save many lives.

Mike D.

You're welcome. The software is called Exbal, at about $50.00 is hard to beat and almost as important as a chrono for long range load development. Keep in mind those numbers are specific to the velocity and enviromental conditions, altitude etc. and that bullet weight.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 17:38:20 (ZULU)


>>>>How the heck am I going to manage Ken M's adventure in late April/ early May, the Allegheny shoot in late May and the SC match in the summer?<<<<

If I can make it, you can make it (just don't know if I can make it yet or not ;)) BUT...will make the maximum effort to be there.


>>>>>I was told that no jitterbugging would be allowed<<<<

I was counting on a meal AND a SHOW ;))

>>>>>Started working on some of the other details this evening, still up in the air, but looking moderately good, especially with Bruce supplying the burger garnish!<<<<

I've had the privilege of partaking of some of that New Mexico cuisine at Raton (mostly from some fine fellow shooters at the Whittington Center) and its definitely on the up and up; pesole and green chile stew (most definitely). Almost as good as my Fabulous Famous Fried Flank Fajitas w/ Frijoles ;))  


Now if BKS could round it out with some cajun cooking ;))


Question: Does Badger or anybody else make an extended bolt handle for the Winnie 70?


Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 18:07:19 (ZULU)

Question... has a date been set yet for the Allegany shoot? Reason I ask is that I have to put in for leave in Jan and would like the date to put in for it. Thanks.

Rob01 <>
- Monday, January 6, 2003, at 18:46:47 (ZULU)

Marty, (Badger Ord.)

You have mail. 1 attach. 108kb


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 18:49:40 (ZULU)


Marty makes 'em and George installs 'em. I got one on a M70 in .223 and it's the cats meow. :))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 18:52:26 (ZULU)

MedicJim, funny you should mention that.  Major Mahon and I are working on it(actually he's doing all the working, keep that in mind when you're sending Christmas cards next year), should know more tomorrow and I'll let everybody know via E-mail when I do.  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 19:29:52 (ZULU)

Bolt - mail on the way about the file extensions.... no attatchments.


Steve~Hockeyref <>
south west, PA, - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 20:10:51 (ZULU)

You all hear about the fiasco at Frankfurt airport yesterday? some nut case stole a plane from some where and wanted to fly it into one of the towers in the city, i ain't got the whole story yet, but i wondered why the airport was quiet.

Didn't get a shot last night, stalking pigs was hard because the damn leaves are noisy when frozen, it was damn cold all night, i don't usualy freeze like that.

Big discussions in the UK on guns and crime at the moment due to the latest shootings, i doubt if any good will come of all the fuss.

Torf, what the hell did you do to the scope? was it a BDMP or a PMII? I'll get you a price on the HK mount, i know i can get one, I don't know about the scopes with the integrated rail, i mean, i do know all about them, have fitted hundreds, but i don't know if they would be a better option than the ring set up. For all that have never seen these European rail mount scopes, on the underside of the scope and actualy part of the scope tube is a rail, or male dove tail, there are a few different types, some are solid and slide into an apposing dove tail on a scope mount, are drilled through and screwed in place,others are detent drilled and screwed in place from the side and underneath, others are hollow and accept a threaded plate which is screwed tight from underneath. Check out any of the Euro scope makers web sites for a close look. What would work is something like the bottom part of a Badger Ord ring that had a dovetail on its upper side instead of the lower half or the ring. EAW makes something like this, but the dove tail is screwed to the lower and the damn screw has a tendency to shoot loose, a different thread is needed i suspect, or some permanent locktite. I've got an illuminated reticle on my S&B, i find that the first setting is almost always bright enough, its hasn't let me down, and i also believe that the modern variable scopes are also reliable, the Brit Army agrees with me.

Mark D, i'm thinking of thet DSC course too, I can get time of work for it, 5 days "Fortbildung" further education holiday is allowed here, and i can use it for any course i like , doesn't have to be work related.. and before you buy a S&B in the UK ask me first, same goes for any hunting shooting kit.( just ask Jon B how much money i saved him over the last year, don't tell his missus though) ref the rifle, find the cheapest, oldest, shot outest Rem 700 you can, let me sort the reciever and trigger out and put a Heym barrel on it, bed it in a HS stock ( i know where i can get em cheap cos there is a smith local here who is building Rem 700's on AICS and has a pile of HS stocks) and i bet the cost is still under what you'd pay for a factory new Rem 700 from a shop, and it'll shoot too. Good choice on the S&B 3-12x42, superb scope. Does your missus eat meat? point out to her that bambi is just another source of food/meat, exept instead of bieng imprisoned in a farmers cage and fed on shit, bambi is free ranging and has a chance to escape death, leads a free life untill it is harvested by you, that you are sick of eating meat that is full of antibiotics and growth hormones and that you want to get you and her back to basic clean eating, point out that anyone who eats meat but is to lazy of frightened to harvest and butcher it them selves  and looks down on one who is prepared to do the dirty work must be a hypocrit.Tell her that the hanging of a deers antlers on the wall in the house are not some morbid form death trophies, but are hung their as a tribute and mark of respect to the fine game animal that gave up its life, in a fair chase i might add, to feed you. You may have a chance of converting her, I have had great success with many of my wifes friends by convinceing them of the above, they all look forward to visits to our house because they know they get fed well, with good food, that they know came from some where free of contaminated feed and batery caged conditions.

We now have a bit of snow here, typical, i'm on night shift and then i'm off for 5 days at home, bet when i get back all the snow is gone..

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 20:55:51 (ZULU)

Jaegerspotter...incoming, one attachment.  

Geoff M <>
USA - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 21:31:26 (ZULU)


Couple of things.

Anyone on the Roster ever use a ballistics program called "Modern Ballistics (  If so can I get some feedback on it?  I had posted a copy of Dave King & Peter Cronhelm's Excel based Ballistic Computer and their Ranging Ballistic Computer (with Dave's permission) to the Tactical-Rifle e-mail group.  The author of Modern Ballistics posted to the list that folks should compare data from actual firing to the King/Chronhelm computed data (duh), cause past 500 yds it didn't match his actual & computed data obtained with his program. I had already cautioned all to fire for actual data and not to trust any program with out verifying.  This guy says that his program is so accurate that his first 3 shots, with out sighters, at 1K were all X ring and asks what is the point of any program if you have to actually shoot to verify the results.

Next - Weapon's safety.  Had to go out to Redstone Arsenal today to deliver some materials.  Pulled the company van (with contractor's sticker) up to the commercial vehicle checkpoint.  It's cold and windy, so the NG EM on duty didn't come out to check.  Ok, so I get out and go in.  SP4 sitting behind the desk motions me over.  Only problem is to get to the desk I got to walk right past the muzzel of the other guys M16 which he has laying across his lap with a 30 round mag in it.  I gave the guy with the M16 a look thinking he would raise the muzzel, but no the stupid SOB just looks back.  Decision time, do I say something and maybe get in a pissing match and be prevented from making the delivery or do I just ignore the accident waiting to happen?  I caved and walked past the muzzel.  I'm still pissed though and thinking seriously about calling the Post PM.

Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 22:12:48 (ZULU)

Seems responsible law abiding gun owners have nothing to fear in the new UK legislation.  It is musicians this time ;-)  With semi-auto/auto guns (well most) and pistols already banned the media are keen to find another 'ban it' scapegoat.  This time it's gangster rap that was to blame for the recent murders.  Will they never learn?

Mark D, be a man for God's sake.  Stand up to your wife and tell her that you are free to do what you want.  It's your money, you earned it, its up to you how you spend it.  Just don't tell my missus I said that ;-)


Jon Beardsley <>
- Monday, January 6, 2003, at 22:14:53 (ZULU)

"My wife forbade "Hey good lookin'".  It was REALLY getting to her."..........Wait 'til he sings that one to his teacher at school....

   Nice Christmas.....scored a Ruger MK II stainless comp. target with the checkered thumbrest grips.....lookout squirrelies....

  Got little bro. one of them mgm targets and his wife said he shot all of the paint off the first day. This new mountain rifle could serve as a bayonet.....TINY bbl. sure is easy to point and carry though. Politically correct too.....thanks again for the inspiration Sarah.

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 22:29:59 (ZULU)

Don Smith, for what it's worth I bet it wasn't loaded! They Army doesn't trust regular Army guys with ammo let alone NG guys. No knock intended just I was in the Army and know how the think. They wont have live ammo till two months after something bad happens. Just a guess though..I could be wrong. Why is it the military is the most anit gun group I've seen? Next to HCI or course.

Who is gunna be shooting a Gas Gun at the SC shoot? I'm thinking of using mine and bringing my Gardner stick as a back up. Irene (Named my stick) shoots well but I want to try the gas gun at a distance of over 500 yds. I have a Springfield scope on it, so I may need the back up gun. Anyone gunna bring a Shepard maybe? hint hint. I know your out there.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 22:56:28 (ZULU)


A good day!

Left for the range at 0930 this morn. Sunny and clear with visibility unlimited. Best laid plans...:-(...range was fogged in and I couln't even see the targets I put up at 200 yards. Waited until just after 1100 and could shoot then.

Clear and crisp at that point. 40 degrees F. and 2-3 mph right windage...steady. Very unheard of conditions for this time of year.

Shot my .223 PSS against my .308 M40A1 clone. They shot well together to 300 yards. After that the .223 just fell apart, group wise. The .308 just hung in there across the course. In fairness I was shooting 55 grain nosler BT's and not match bullets in the .223.

Fired at 200, 300, 500, and 600. Groups were not phenomenol, but solid and repeatable.

My 600 yard cold bore shot and the rest of the group went dead center and measured 4" center to center. I know the rifle can do better, but I'm definitely the week spot.

Shot off my pack, on the ground, so I'm happy with the results. I said "happy", not PLEASED...

Still, for doping it, dialing it, and dumping it the effort paid off well.

All for now. Have casings to reload.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 6, 2003, at 23:13:55 (ZULU)


Good that you got something to group well.   The BC for the 140's is .535,, the 142's .595,, so there could be a decent difference, but I wouldn't think 12".  

I'm thinking I may give a couple hundred of the Clinch River 147's a try.  They use J4 jackets so they're probably pretty thin,, but I haven't heard of anyone blowing any up.  I still may try the 139 Lapuas also.  It's tuff load testing with a stick that gonna get less than 2000 rounds through a tube though.  Escpecially when the 142's shoot so damn good @ $18 per 100.

Shooter et al.,

We got the dates for the match on March 29/30th.  With all that's going on this summer,, is anyone from the roster still interested?  50 shooters max.  Let me know,, as I'll be having the "maiden swingers" cut in a week. [Down 'lito,, down boy ;))] Wonder how many guys will be able to shoot through them...... John L? (;

Who's going to the SHOT show this year?

George Gardner,

You have a safe mail incoming, N/A.  Did your new guy start last week?


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 00:08:33 (ZULU)

I have a few questions,

1:  Do any of you have experience with Weaver's Grand Slam line of scopes.  From what I have found they are on par with the lopy vxIII.

2:  Does anyone have experience with the Leopould Wind River line of bino's and spotting scopes.  Are they worthy of name or do they fall under the "get what you paid for."

3:  Just picked up a new Savage 112bvss in 22-250, it has a 1/12" twist rate, in theory this should like the lighter (40gr)better right?  Not an expert on twist rates, trying to learn all I can.



Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 00:28:18 (ZULU)

Hogs  -  It looks like the Email pirates have hit me.  I will send no attachment with out posting here first, and from now on all post subject lines will contain my screen name and date.  What was the verdict on catching this prick from you computer types.

Alan, Sinister, and Master Rick, Thanks for the SPR info.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 00:38:08 (ZULU)

Sinister and Gents,

LMAO over Murphy's laws.  In Sep '90, we re-oriented our training to CQB and began re-learning alot of lessons --the hard way of course.  How else will ya learn?  We got a hold of some Jetex (linear shape charges), of the 1 inch flange variety (yeah, bigger than needed).  I figured p=plenty, so a strip on the hinged side ought to take a door easy enough.  Well, another team was working a scenario down the road...I'm number one for entry, and the charge is burning on a 15 second fuze.  Radio in one ear, plug in the other, and a CAR15 harnessed to my chest.  First time in with live boolits.  I run forward on the fist boom and come face to face with a live charge and smoldering M700 fuze.  I turned to run back but got blown sideways.  Yep, the other team threw a stun grenade and I reacted to the wrong boom.  I don't know about wood in the eyes, but wood in the ass makes it pretty hard to clear a room too!  Mang, Murphy was all over us for a whole month of comedy.  After screwing it every which way, we got pretty good at going in and shooting BGs.  And in the end, we finally caught on that shooting the hostage was a bad thing...but not before we executed many manequins in nomex.  A few of these even had large chests.  heheh.  

Things in the world are moving fast.  I hope that my May report date is not too freakin' late for the party!


 I once entered an "arms room" in Alabama (in '89) that was both well stocked and effing huge!  It was wall to wall racks of M14s, M1s and assorted small arms of all US makes (M1919A6, 1911s, 03s, etc).  Mostly M14s.  It was part of the UW stockage at the time.   I wonder what the hell we did with all that stuff?  Or is that the pile that our designated marksmen have in their hands?  Between Devens, Aberdeen and that 20th group warehouse, I've seen about 5K M14s just sitting around getting dusty.  I hope we didn't de-mil those sticks...we're regretting it now if'n we did!

>>I only have one (1911) and I don't want to screw it up<<

So Rich, buy another!  Yer named right for that kind of thing! LOL


 I made the mistake of letting Blake at the Allman Bros CD when he was 4.  He would belt out "Tiiiiied to the whipping post" in the shower, and I'd just fall out laughing.  Ohhhhh laaaawd I feeeee-uhl, sometimes I feeee-uhl...we'll, I feel for you buddy.  Enjoy it while it lasts.  Only a dad can know what we mean by that.  

And I enjoyed that last paragraph.  Hostile takeover indeed.  A touch of British humor, that!

Mark S,

"scored" a Ruger?  Didya do it with a cratch awl?  Or a power tool?  Personally, if'n I were to score a ruuuuger, I'd use a sawz-all. heheh.  Just kiddin.  I've got nuthin against a Ruger--I gave mine away to my father in law years ago.  Figured it was the safest gun for me to hand him just before I told him he was about to be a grand-daddy!  Heheh.  Damn thing wouldn't shoot minute-of-mahon on a good day! Bawwww-haw-haw.


 Maybe this Saturday for some shooting (Saturday the range is hot, saturday evening the beer is cold).  I got bored shooting all by myself, and the coyotes wouldn't come to my rabbit distress call.  They wuz laughing at me from behind the ridge though.  The frozen rain wasn't much fun either--I'm still coughing lungs up for that stupid trick. So there's aplenty of boolits left over.  Sunday, the make a wish folks are bringing out Trixie the POA for Nicole--so we won't fly the range flag.  Nice folks, but a bit liberal around the edges.  Wouldn't want them scared off by big, ugly tactical weapons, now would we?  

And for an update--Nicole's hair is coming back (for a while anyway), and she is as happy a kid as I've met.  Kym--you really made her day, pictures to follow (once developed).  She is progressing on the right glide path, and all indications are a go for cure!  On DEROS, she'll be in the final phase of treatment.  At that point, it'll be a lock.  Cannot wait...this thing is like the BG behind the sofa-always there!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 01:03:29 (ZULU)

Joe M:  Same with my Blake.  He plaintively sings about the "goin' down the lost highway."  

What the Hell do they know about "lost highways" and "whippin' posts"?

"...oh lord I feel like I'm dyin'..." indeed.

They must have old souls.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 01:18:38 (ZULU)

Happy New Year Hawgs....

Hope all is well with younz. Getting the new year off to a good start around here. I have a few riffle  projects in the pile.

I came across a Savage Model 10 Tactical that I don't need. Click on my name for the ad in the Emporium.

Take care out there.


Ken :)

Ken Hunter <>
Snowy Northern, Va, U.SofA. - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 01:26:29 (ZULU)


     On the Savage 112, 22/250 with 12 inch twist. 14 inch twist is the traditional twist for .22 centerfires with bullets to 55 gr., so your 12 inch twist should favor heavier than normal .22 centerfire bullets. That isn;t to say it will shoot 80 gr. Sierras, or even 75's. It's possible it MAY shoot 69 grainers, you'll just have to try them. A 12 twist seems to me not to offer much over a 14. I wonder why they did not go faster than 12, considering the large gap between 9 and 14 inch twists that seem to exist.    

Louis <>
Floyds Knobs, In, - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 01:47:53 (ZULU)


Heads up! I just had a virus from .50Bldr. Got it stopped and cleaned the system, but it may have sent a few back out, since the Klez virus does that.

Haven't sent anyone messages or attachments today. If you got one, beware.

Someone has  targeted out group, it looks like.

Reviewed my 600 yard target. Guess I can live with .66 MOA.

Prepping and reloading brass tonight for the next major event.

My best to all...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 02:05:06 (ZULU)


  I had an e-mail returned to me from Jon in the UK. I didn't send it. I ain't been in town for three days.

  If anyone gets a mail from me, delete it. I'll tell you on the roster if it's legit.

  I also got a mail from brogers. I deleted it.


             LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 02:15:04 (ZULU)


I just received (2) Virus' - A version of the Worm and the one Wes Howe received.

Watch out guys  - How can we stop this ASSHO#E???

Headsu up

Thanks for your time,


John did you receive my E-Mail from last night? - if not let me know by E-Mail - No attachments please:)


BearMan <>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 02:15:33 (ZULU)

Anybody have plans for a reloading bench?  I just got my Lock-n-Load, but now I have to...a'hem...mount the beast soemwhere and my work-bench won't work.


Steve Burris <>
NOVA, VA, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 02:16:15 (ZULU)


 OK OK We settled on dates for the match over the weekend .  The match will be May 17/18.  The format will be a lot like last year except there will be two expanded rounds of sniper golf- short walks between firig points so that we can take maximum advantage of the terain.  BYOB&B cookout on Saturday night.  Prize raffle based on gear donations.  Lots of challenging shooting.  Maximum participants will be 30, and because of a promise we made to last years shooters they get first crack at slots.  I had planned to send them an Email tonight(it will still go out) and post this next week but I think we can let the dates out and take names as long as everyone understands there are potentially 16 slots filled.  Go ahead and email me if you want to shoot.  More details to follow.  This match should make ASC#1 seem more like an afternoon shooting off a bench at 100yards.


rod hansen <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 02:17:06 (ZULU)

Rumsfeld bolsters special forces.  They're going directly after al Qaeda.

Rumsfeld is a great historical figure like Pershing or Patton.  There's talk that the Iranians are going to surprise attack our forces.    I would be very surprised if Rumsfeld walks in unprepared.

If Iran sets a trap for a wolf, they'll catch a tiger.

There's also talk that we're not going in hard enough.  That would also surprise me.

Rumsfeld ain't here to bullshit.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 03:45:41 (ZULU)

HOGs, I am wheels up in afew hours.


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 04:04:49 (ZULU)

Joke Country. we haven't had one for a while:

After bieng engaged to my fiancee for a year, we decided it was time to tie the knot. My soon to be Motherinlaw,(who happens to be super  sexy for her age !) took care of everything, invitations, Church, flowers,reception the lot. Yesterday she called me and asked me to call round to finalise the seating arrangements for my family and freinds. I called around after work and we went over the arrangements a final time. I was speachless when she suddenly said that she had always found me very attractive and that in a weeks time I would be married and "IT" wouldn't be possible any more, she wished for nothing else but to have sex with me, and she wanted that, right now. On her way to the bedroom she said if i wasn't interested I knew where the house door was and could leave. I stood glued to the spot, a full 3 long minutes, then i decided what to do.

I ran to the door and out to the drive.

I found my soon to be Fatherinlaw stood next to my car, laughing with a big smile on his face.

"Congratulations Son, you passed the test,we wanted to make sure our daughter is marrying an honest upstanding young man "he said as he shook my hand and hugged me.

Thank God,  i'd left my rubbers in the car !

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 05:30:01 (ZULU)


       Godspeed. We're waiting for the SITREP when you return.

Joe M,

       Last I heard they rounded up all(?) 10K M14's left in inventory and sent them to Crane for storage. 1K were checked out and sent to the USMC and USN (SEALS) for conversion to the (X)M25 spec. I also know that some were used by the Army to blow up unexploded cluster bomblets left on the runways after the airfields were taken in A'stan.


     Send me your mailing address and I'll mail you a Buck Owens and the Buckaroos CD. They'll really love "Cryin' Time" and "Drunk Again" at your house LOL!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 05:47:11 (ZULU)


FWIW, it don't matter to me whether it "actually" was loaded or not.  Unless I personally clear the weapon, it's loaded to me.  I did call the PM's office and spoke to the NCOIC of the NG guard detail.  He was pissed and assured me they are in fact loaded mags & empty chambers.  He also assured me that immediate steps would be taken to correct the "deficiency".  Realize that these NG troopies have been activated specifcally to augment the MP & DOD guards at an active Army post that is considered a likely target cause the newly combined Army Aviation & Missile Command is located there.  They also pull duty at SMD Hq in town. BTW I was in for 10 myself and at every post, gate  and/or compound guards had live ammo.


Don Smith <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 06:23:15 (ZULU)

Pete L:

I have a long record at S&B servicedep. :-)

1.5-6x42 Sniper. Internal parts disintegrated while trying to learn how to doubletap/tripletap at long range with a G3 set on fullauto. H&K scopemount destroyed. Scope replaced by S&B. You live and learn... I actually hit quite well.

10x42 huntingscope with cusomfitted BDC by S&B. Scope utterly destroyed in a fall.

6x42 Sniper (NM149) slightly bent in a fall and fogged up. S&B rebuilt the scope at no cost.

Scopes with rails:

I have a H&K 770 and a SL6. Both have H&K 05 mount with regular rail scopes. No drilling in scoperail on this mount. Look very neat. Return to zero is sub moa. on my rifles.

Zeiss VM scopes in EAW mount mod. 1271 bestell-nr. 1271-00000 fit directly in the milled rails on Tikka actions. With proper bases they fit almost all rifles.

The best thing with railed scopes are no stress in the tube itself. The tube is also much stiffer, especially on 8x56 scopes with 1" tube. A couple of shootingbuddies have the new Zeiss VM/V 5-15x42. One with rail, one without. The railed one has no vibration.


TorF <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 09:38:41 (ZULU)

Pete L.

Thats Hilarious!!


I'm only 30 minutes from Crane, I'll run down and take a look. NOT. We did a couple "jobs" down there several years ago. I don't remember all the details, coulda been the coffee the Made us drink, but we did have to leave all lighters, cigarettes, anything that smoked or burned or made a flame in the guard house. There is a lot more to that place than meets the public eye.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 10:39:37 (ZULU)

Zulu Test

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 11:10:05 (ZULU)

Mike Miller, remember to use the good lessons you tell us about, and above all else, may you be LUCKY. Best of luck my friend, hope to hear from you soon!

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 14:15:47 (ZULU)

C&C at Prince Sultan.  Note that ground forces now support air.  Sure.  Let's see them jet jockeys hold ground.

Alan:  That may be an idea.  It's been all Hank all the time since Christmas.  It's getting to me.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 14:30:36 (ZULU)

Don S. You got mail no attachment.

Mike, Stay Safe..

Only one other guy is taking a gas gun to the match. He contacted me off the roster. He said he didn't post it and scare you bolt only guys away ;)

Ditry Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 15:29:41 (ZULU)

>>>>>>Only one other guy is taking a gas gun to the match. He contacted me off the roster. He said he didn't post it and scare you bolt only guys away ;)<<<<<<<

Tell Jaeger I'll look forward to seeing him there ;)))


Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 15:46:56 (ZULU)

Jaeger - No too much fun switch, to hard on the system and a pain to hold on target.  As far as too many heavies, have seen a break that occured after only 120 rounds.  That is easy to attain after in country data gathering and one hard contact ni the mountains.  Remember they may have to use selected engagement suppressing fire.  I know, oxymoron but it works and that is one of hte things that a designated marksman is really good at.  However requires a goodly number of rounds.

TorF - Have messed with the Kaules(sp?) integrated ring scope but was not impressed.  Heavy body but some of that was due to an illuminated reticle with an elevation indicator in the reticle.  Good idea but dam the thing was big and heavy.  I did like the idea of an elevation indicator in the scope reticle but just another thing to go broke at the worst possible time.

Chris - Actually it is not hte PVS-14 in front of the lens but another scope designed for that purpose and is one reason why htere is no shift in zero.  The new mount also aloows for additional mounting of goodies to help the sniper and observer.

Pete L. - On the varibles, we are going to them as they ahve toughened them up enough to be soldier proof, well almost.  Believe the Marines are looking at them as well.  

Don Smith - Have not used his ballistics program as I have Sierra, Exbal, and the Don King special.  However, the auther is also the auther of the book Modern Ballistics and his background is that of computing ballistic trajectories of missles on a GRAND scale.  His book is complicated but makes good sense.  One of my fellow instructors got his ballistic program sometime ago but I have not worked with it.  That instructor is now off to newer assignements.

Joe M. - Don't forget that Clinton destroyed a bunch of weapons before congress and the Republicans got him stopped.  But yes there are a large number of never fired M14s, M1s, 1911s, etc still in the inventory.  Actually there are still M3s in the Grease gun and the M1 Carbine style still in the inventory.

Well got to go back to work.

Hold Hard Guys!


Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 15:47:26 (ZULU)

Guys, a quick question...

I am in the process of selling a rifle and i am going to need to ship it out-of-state. Exactly what is the legal procedure for this. I believe that it must go from FFL to FFL, but I have been told by a guy "with an ATF agent friend" that you can just ship straight up with UPS. So what gives? I don't want to break any laws.



Jim Wise <>
Frostproof, Florida, USA - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 15:50:26 (ZULU)

Jim Wise:

On the Fed level, all you need is a signed copy of the dealer's FFL in your hot little hands and you can ship directly to him via UPS, USPS, or Fed-Ex.  Sent one out to FL on 12-27 via UPS that way.  Checked with the USPS and they said I could ship via them also but was more expensive.  Of course any state laws must also be obeyed.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 16:44:10 (ZULU)

Good luck and watch your ass, Mike.

Let us know when you return.



dennis <>
me, KA, usa - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 16:53:58 (ZULU)

Pruden writes the program for Gulf War II.  I don't buy all this, but it is pretty funny.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 17:04:47 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve >>>Only one other guy is taking a gas gun to the match. He contacted me off the roster. He said he didn't post it and scare you bolt only guys away <<<

Maybe if you shoot your gas gun I can give you more competition.  :-))

HDR <>
OK, - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 17:51:05 (ZULU)

Lots of potentially nasty stuff happening all at once so I'll post this again.  This is the DOD site to subscribe to briefings.  It features Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Franks, etc. Good info lately.  Too much info to cut and paste here. If you don't like it, it's easy to unsubscribe.


CDC' <>
- Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 20:21:21 (ZULU)

"Damn thing wouldn't shoot minute-of-mahon on a good day!".......... M.O.A. whif a pistola huh......Damn! You folks are a helluva lot better'n I thought!!! ;)

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 22:31:11 (ZULU)


  I have a FFL and all of my ATF stuff says you have to ship to a FFL once you receive a SIGNED copy of his license. I haven't found anything that says you must have a FFL ship to a FFL.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 00:22:54 (ZULU)

>>>>>>Only one other guy is taking a gas gun to the match. He contacted me off the roster. He said he didn't post it and scare you bolt only guys away ;)<<<<<<<

Tell Jaeger I'll look forward to seeing him there ;)))


Mk4, not me! What, you think I'd be playing for anything other than winning? OK, maybe. Maybe a cute little lightweight number in 223, if I've got to lug stuff all over the hillside 8p Since my first two kneejerk choices of partners have backed out on me, we'll have to see what kind of a slot I get, that'll let me know what I'm carrying. Besides, I haven't got all the good stuff yet to get a custom BDC for the scope. And I've still got another couple of OTHERjerk choices of partners to hear from.

Speaking of which, that shop that does the custom mark4 m3 BDC's, do they do a double tier? MOA ticks up top, yardage markers (hopefully in half MOA increments) down below? When I say that last part, I mean the "4" between the MOA ticks. Maybe cute little arrows. No, lucky horse shoes. Make that green shamrocks. Yeah, that's the ticket, pour a bowl of lucky charms into the adjustment cap, and call it rations, as long as I shoot better, that's all I care.

Rick, that's downright interesting! Never heard of any breakages with the heavies that early. I'm not doubting you at all, just never heard of it in my circles. Maybe a bad new part? In my head, I had four digits, not three. You're right, that's not even a chance to reload mags LOL. Just out of curiousity, why not give them a second cylinder plug, oversized reservoir, with a slight vent? It wouldn't take long, or much effort either one, to fit it, and they'd reduce slamming on the rod to the point it didn't matter. It'd suck rocks to use ball with it in, but that's why I said second, how long it take to change a plug? Maybe it wouldn't be all that bad, just a straight pull bolt gun. One of these guys has it to an art form, keep adjusting it out until the brass hits about 1 foot away, a little limp for my taste. For these kinds of applications, I'd go a bit more 8p

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 02:49:43 (ZULU)

earlier this week Ft WOrth PD suffered a tragedy when an undercover officer was shot by a store owner during a drug bust.

Officer and company had made a buy of some substance,  suspect deems it necessary to go into the convenience store ( no involvement by owners) right after the buy.  

Female officer pursues, dressed in street attire for the most part, wearing ski mask and with pistol drawn.  Store clerk looks up, sees what he thinks is a BG, fires one round.  It's on target, officer hit upper left torso from diagonal.

Just learned she will pay for a momentary lapse in situational awareness with the use of her legs...............forever it seems.

You guys that do this.........Thanks.

But please, we want you all home every night just like your loved ones do, so for God sake, think about what the bystanders see when you pull one of these.  

Say one for this officer tonight. She needs it.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 04:54:11 (ZULU)


     I agree, Buck sure ain't no Hank - that's for sure. Blake should be getting a package shortly. Question is, can Buck drive you nuts quicker than Hank did? My bet is - hell yes!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 05:20:32 (ZULU)

Sniper Country Rifle Update:

All actions are in house and being machined already,  Mike has the first batch of barrels on the way.   Everything is looking good.  Hopfully the stocks show ontime. If it all works out everyone will have there rifles for the S.C. Match.

S.C. Rifle Markings. will be: Left   S.C.L.E. Rifle  # XX of 50. Will be in 3/8 heieght in a Gothic Font. G.A. Logo on oposeing side.  

Rings will be black (like the scope)


I will most definatly make the S.C. Match.  May even shoot an AR-10 myself.  My AR-10 seems to like the Badlands Steel.  

George Out.

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 06:29:36 (ZULU)

I recently traded pistols with a guy in Ohio before Christmas. I had to send him a signed copy of my dealers letterhead. When He recieved it he took it to his dealer, then my dealer sent my pistol to his dealer. He had to do the same thing on his end.

TBurkes <>
Alvin, Tx, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 13:11:33 (ZULU)

Ok, everything is fun and games until someone starts talking bad about Buck Owens. We can do without that kind of stuff around me.

Mike in Texas, you've got it amigo.

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 14:01:44 (ZULU)

Hadn't been on in a long time.  Thought I'd drop in and see how things were.

Bruce, Bobby, and Sarge,

Sorry to hear about Suttles.  I had the chance to meet him briefly when I went through the NGMTU Scout/Sniper School several years back and again at one of the Winston matches.  Card is on the way and I'll pass the word along to some of the guys in my old unit that have met him.

Anyone have any good info on Blackwater Training?  I hear they have a 1,200 yard range.  It's the closest place to Va. Beach I can find that has any distance.  Do they allow "civies" to head over there and shoot?  If not, anyone know of any other spots around Hampton Roads where one can go shoot?


Chris too

Chris Workman <>
Va Beach, VA, - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 14:05:37 (ZULU)


Call me at home.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 14:22:41 (ZULU)

Michael Kelly on our situation vs NK.  Short, smart summary of the nuke situation.  It doesn't discuss conventional forces:

Alan:  You may have a point.  "Looks like I've got a tiger by the tail" five times a day would drive the Dali Lama to drugs.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 14:53:17 (ZULU)

Chris Workman,

Blackwater is a great place for training and yes they do allow civilians in classes however some classes are LE/Military only. I attended the Chandler Precision Rifle Course Part 1 last year and it was great. If I lived as close as you I would be there all the time. If you click on my name down below it will bring you to a review of the class I took that I wrote. Here's Blackwater's site if you haven't looked at it yet

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 15:50:07 (ZULU)


That's one of, if not, the most accurate and comprehendable assesments I've read so far. Nuthin but the facts, ma'am.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 15:51:47 (ZULU)

ASC#2 Input time...

  To those of you who shot #1, it's time to put on your thinking caps!

  I'd Like to know which sniper golf shots were your favorites and which you thought were the least interesting/educational or, totally irrelevent.

  If you were designing this years match, based on your memory of the terrain and the opportunities it presents, what type of shots would you add or delete.  What skills were not tested?  Would you add more small or big targets? Would you add more forced position shooting?  

  Whatever your thoughts are, I'd like to here from you, either here on the Roster or off line.  A discussion on the Roster would stimulate the anticipation factor but might be a waste of band width..

  Those of you who didn't shoot last years match, please feel free to chime in..What skills should  be tested in a one day time period from 12 to 16 different firing points..Essentially every position last year involved a UKD cold bore shot with the opportunity for one follow up shot for score if the first was a miss.  That will remain the same this year. Opening exercises involved, and will again, a cold bore and a group.

  I look forward to your input as we plan ASC#2..

  outa here    

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 16:02:06 (ZULU)

Steve (Hockyref)

  Try to email me again.  My response to your questions about ASC#2 keep bouncing.  The note that comes back says your "address has  permanent fatal errors".  That doesn't sound good-almost like being dead forever.


rod hansen <>
Looking forward to ASC#2, - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 16:03:19 (ZULU)


I'll email from a different address.... could you forward the messages to Ken Hunter.... may be something on his end as it is a "" address.

Thanks, Steve

Steve ` hockeyref <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 16:58:20 (ZULU)

John, Rod:

I really enjoyed the walk in the woods and the movement from point to point that was "sniper golf".  The targets were challenging (read GREAT!).  Here's what would in my opinion make it better...

-firing from concealment, perhaps even an observed FFP.  Maybe two teams competing to get the first shot off without being spotted..

-firing under mild stress (you will recall my fantastic shot on the wrong target during the counter sniper/spotter setup last year...

-developing dope on the spot and creating effective shooting positions in an improptu manner was fun and should be emphasized.

-Coordinated multi-target engagements...perhaps two or three spotter/shooter teams tasked at the same time

-targets of opportunity.... walking along the trail, referee calls  out a target, assigns a shooter and gives him a finite amount of time to drop and make the shot... perhaps not enough time to range... must use a SWAG dope. Taget could be within pistol or spotter weapon range, to further complicate the decision making process.

-Spotter / shooter switch weapons for a shot.

-Firing from concealment... shooter must remain concealed while setting up shot...has only 15 second opportunities to collect visual range info and/or take the shot.. simulating a duel with a small unit of assault weapon equipped troops.

-contingency scenarios... rules change mid-way through engagement...adapt and overcome..

medicjim <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 17:04:11 (ZULU)


I just got an email from Ken regarding the bounce.... we'll work it out. Please diregard request to forward.


Steve ~ hockeyref <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 17:16:46 (ZULU)

T Burkes: < I recently traded pistols with a guy in Ohio before Christmas. I had to send him a signed copy of my dealers letterhead.>

Think you mean signed copy of the dealer's FFL.  That's the only way it's legal.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 18:33:50 (ZULU)

Shipped both long guns and handguns.

Private party can ship Long Gun TO FFL from home.  Shipper needs to see signed copy of FFL the weapon is GOING to.

A handgun needs to go from FFL to FFL.  And each needs the other's FFL before shipping.  



Your LOCAL laws may vary...

A local gunsmith would be a good source of info.


d <>
merced, KA, usa - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 19:00:03 (ZULU)


Happy New Year from a low post-count FNG.  I'm hoping to make it to Badlands if only to listen, learn, and give Steve Suttles a big hug.  Just a handshake for Bobby, though.  ;)

BTW, I've recently fallen in with a bad crowd - they shoot these odd-looking rifles that have all kinds of doodads and geegaws like "charging handles", "forward-assist plungers", "gas tubes"'s all greek to me but they tell me to not worry and keep loading magazines.  If I'm good they promise to introduce me to "Lula" (better not tell the wife 'bout this, I guess).

In the meantime, I'll be working on playing with a Leupy Mk4 M3 the wife got me after the fall shoot at Badlands.  I still suck, but it's one less thing I can blame for said suckiness.

Be well, be safe, be on target.

BTW, the email link is no longer vailid. is my current addy.

El_Roto <>
Carrollton, TX, U.S. of A - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 19:32:21 (ZULU)

Did someone assume I meant a pistolized ruger?????

The Ruuuug-gar in question was a M77--and no, it couldn't hold a minute of mahon, but the really good news was my new "dad in law" was happy enough with the gift that he overlooked his yet unmarried knocked up daughter...and I never had to dodge any incoming rounds...

 As for rug's in the pistola category--I won't even acknowledge the existance of an autoloader in that brand, let alone give one to someone I want to call a friend! Heheh.  The Wheelguns are a different story...but I only own S&W for some damned reason...I think it was the factory triggers...MOA with a pistol?  I'm happy with 2" at 25 yard!  Now why would ya even think sumtin' like that????  Mang, my superhuman immortal days are long since past...:))LOL

Ken M,

 I got way-laid by higher yesterday.  On the road playing ringmaster for a three-ring circus, the usual stuff.  I will be on McCoy again Thursday to do that which needs done for us'ns.  I'll call you around lunch time with the particulars.  Well that's the plan, so long as there isn't another JTYA (jump through yer ass) emergency.  My apologies for Tuesday.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 19:59:20 (ZULU)

I'd better explain how I came to have a Ruger before I lose any more credibility around here...

 South Cushman St in Fairbanks had an auction once a month--and there was this Loopy 3-9 that I wanted.  My winning bid was 90 bucks.  I gave the metal thing under the scope away....

 And my father in law now owns a M77 in 300WM.  

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 20:05:30 (ZULU)

Re shipping guns:

According to the ATF web site, it is legal for an individual to ship *any* firearm to a licensed FFL.  I have acquired MG, handguns and rifles in that manner, shipped from out-of-state individuals to my FFL dealer.


see question B9

Getting the receiver's signed FFL copy is a requirement for dealers, not for individuals.  It is a good idea, though. The shipper might want to see it, and it plus the shipping paperwork are proof that the sender shipped it to a legit receiver.

It looks like the dealers involved in the transfer below got together after the letterhead was provided.

Stay safe, stay legal!


BMG Mike <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 20:11:01 (ZULU)

Al Qaeda and Taliban use Pakistan as refuge.

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 21:36:08 (ZULU)

With all this talk about shipping guns, has anyone imported long guns into the U.S. from Canada?  A friend of a friend inherited some old guns from a relative in Canada and needs to know what is required to get them.

I found some info that looks like an FFL here can file for a special Import License and that some forms are required but I couldn't find the forms to see what info is required.

Since this might be a long process any links would be appreciated.

Byron <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 22:00:42 (ZULU)

 One Ruger for a free pass on an effective roll in the hay.......Sounds like a good deal to me! I assume you didn't think  he was offering that shotgun in trade at the wedding;)) The pistol I wuz talking about in the post you saw is a .22 MkII. Shoots pretty good. All that "stainless competition target Mk II" crap I posted is just Ruger's sales pitch/model description. Wouldn't have one of their other P-90 whatever-they-were things though. The Ruger revolvers all went to the smith to get rid of those "who-dropped-it-in-the-sand" triggers.  

  I figgerd you was talking 'bout them 77s. Just thought I'd jerk back on that chain a little ;) Although I do have one of them 77s about 20 years old with a heavy bbl. in 22-250 floated and bedded that shoots moa groups.


 Prayers and best wishes to the little one!

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 22:10:58 (ZULU)


 I'll take the foot outta my mouth so'z you can better understand me!  I completely forgot about the MkII .22s.  Those are really fun little training tools.  And for all of my hunting buddies that bought (and kept) a Ruger, it was because they got one that was right.  The 300 rug I had grouped at 2" with 180 gr federal premium factory--with anything else it became a red label!  

 For every rifle that ever let me down, I just put them on my shit-list.  There are no second chances.  My Sakos' have spoiled me rotten.  The list of factory rifles no longer welcome in my safe include A-bolts, M700/M7s and M77s.  Winneys have treated me to expectations without fail, and I like remmies that a good smith got a hold of before I did. I accept my hatred as irrational and I am good with it.  I know the A-bolt has probably come along with the BOSS and that workmanship can be cyclical, but with rifles, first impressions are everything!  Hell, if I gotta get old, I gotta get set in my ways...

My son Blake and I cleaned out the barn (ok, I secretly hate horses) and discovered a really fun way to get this done.  Once the old F150 had a full bed o'crap I gave Blake a driving lesson.  The Beanfield had a good coat of freezing rain, so I taught him how to do doughnuts.  With the tailgate down.  We spread manure rather nicely, although the wife wasn't amused when she saw who was driving. Mang, these farm-girls  sure take their chores too seriously.  Heheh, like the first brush-burn I did in the "pit"--flames forty feet high--she was freakin'!  Apparently, a farmer must be serious at all times.  If that's so, then I am destined to be a lousy farmer!  I just hope she never catches me doing wheelies with the lil' tractor!!!!


Get the directions yet?  Call if they aren't clear, there is an easier route that is a bit longer.  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 23:21:43 (ZULU)

Ref: ASC #2

Andy would love to bring his M4 and show off a little.  Handgun would be fun but not everybody does that.  Andy and I would be happy to shoot for anybody that can't shoot for themselves.  Toss the scores in a hat and and draw for them.  We loved the match last year and anything you decide will be ok by us.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 23:25:02 (ZULU)


Sounds like Pakistan and AlQueerda/Talibut want to play "kick the can". Worse yet, it sounds like Washington is agreeing to the rules.


Didn't make the first one but If given the opprotunity, I'll make #2. Whatever works for you guys will work for me. I do like some of Medicjims' ideas and scenarios. I've never done the ghillie suit crawl but I can learn most anythin. I can flounder with the best of 'em. :)) The 300 yard movers @ SMTC were really a challenge for me even with very little wind. Some kind of movers would be good.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 23:46:26 (ZULU)

Joe M, it's OK, no problems.  I give everybody three days, like Jesus, then I come looking for 'em ;-)  Looks like Range 6 is one of the ones we want, there is a sniper range there too, but they pulled all the info inside the firewall post-sep 11, and I can't find it anymore.  Thursday will be best around 1330-1430 or after 1800.  I have a good gig at the local cop range and I have to get some trigger time in.  USMC went stop loss, force wide, yesterday, so I've got to get the practice in while I can.  I'm shooting the FBI qual course, at half times.  Good challenging CoF, have to have your shit together or you flop big time.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 00:12:08 (ZULU)


 Figures youze would have a big get-together right after my port-call.  The way things are moving, I'll be lucky to squeeze time for Blake and I to get down to the basic rifle course.  That is actually a must-do before I go off for a year.  Gotta have that all-important man to young man talk, and the badlands sounds like just the right place.  I'll see this weekend if he's up to a 308 or if he needs to stick with his baby-stealth.  

Anyone have a favorite factory load for their .223 stealth?  

I've been shooting everything from 55gr to 69gr with good results out to 300 yds, but I haven't worked it for accuracy yet--and time is running out.  My criteria for it was 1" or less at 100, then boiler hits on coyotes inside of 300.  Not exactly match grade other words, I have no real idea what happens at longer ranges.  I think my procrastination has bit me in the butt again, but I'll worry about that tomorrow. heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 00:24:33 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon,

You have mail..No attachments, and was scanned on this end.

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 00:57:18 (ZULU)


   I'm heading up to Chetek, Wisc. in a couple weeks for a 4 day weekend. Anyone up that way that can tell me of anything interesting to visit, firearms related?  Much apreciated....

Louis <>
Floyds Knobs, In, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 01:25:03 (ZULU)

'Lito, American-Scottish bbl.-maker-man, and 'Yote-bait;

You may remember a problem I bugged you guys about with my factory-fresh Stealth .223.  The tight, burred chamber neck.

Well Winchester service got it back to me and I have since put 60 rnds thru it on sun.

Reloads w/ Varget and BLC-2, Fed match-prepped once-fired cases, WSR primers, and 75 gr A-maxs, 69 gr Sierra MKs, and some 50 gr Speer TNTs (for fun).

It shot so damned well that I was able to cull cases.  Sub-moa w/ an occasional called flyer.  The unexplained flyer cases are now in the bag o' brass for the mini. (I know, I know...).

The folks at Winchester service DID NOT re-adjust my trigger or dick-up my bedding job, either.  Thanks Winchester.

I'm a happy old fart.

And speaking of Ruger rifles.  I have had some ok and some not.  But I recently took a chance on a swap for a 243 #1 full-stock model.  Mounted my litle VXII tac Loopy and put 6 WW 100gr Power-Points into 1" at 100.  Just may have to keep the cute little thing.  And the bbl. is SMOOOOOOOTH as a (you-pick-what).  So I got VERY lucky w/ THIS one.

NOT WANTING A REHASH OF THE RUGER WARS!!!  Just tellin' a story, fellas.

Just BSin'.


Dennis <>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:09:14 (ZULU)

Guys... I've been absent for a bit, but am now back...mostly lurking, but I do have a question that I can't remember being discussed.

I'm considering a low-power variable scope for my tactical carbine.  What I need to know is: is there anything out there in the 1-4X to 2-7X that doesn't have a noticable change in eye relief when the power is changed?

I have a Leupold 1-4 on my 375 big boomer, and it changes maybe 1-1.5 inches between 1 and 4X.  I can live with it since if I have to "do battle" with somthing appropriate for such a cannon, I have it on 1X, and if I need 4X I have time to adapt my hold to compensate.  I'd hate to have to do that in a situation where I don't have time.

Any suggestions would be immensly appreciated!

Steve <>
lakeview, Oregon, USofA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:30:53 (ZULU)

John ( you have mail, no attachments.

John <>
Liberty, TX, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:49:01 (ZULU)


    Look at and look for importation and Form 6 information. On a page from the F & E import link there is an address and phone number to the ATF import department.


    I want to request a fire mission on the crack licker that keeps screwing with the e-mail.

                 LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:54:31 (ZULU)

Had 2 hour refresher on Small Pox tonight. Getting ready to have to make the decision on whether to do the vaccine thing again. Skeddy, veddy skeddy!

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 03:53:04 (ZULU)




Absolutely right.  Screw the arrows.  Fear the JDAMS.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 04:11:33 (ZULU)

******** edited *********

>>>>>Had 2 hour refresher on Small Pox tonight. Getting ready to have to make the decision on whether to do the vaccine thing again. Skeddy, veddy skeddy!<<<<<


Thinking about the same thing myself. Let me know how it turns out. If you go ahead and aren't delusional, frothing at the mouth, throwing up, w/diahrrea, headaches, nauseated, or (gasp) dead, I'll think about it some more ;))


News Flash:

Recently, Lubbock, Texas was named as the first city in the United States to be the host of a very timely and important training program.

Only 3 cities in the Nation will be honored to have such an event, and

Lubbock is the first with the training scheduled on March 18, 19, and

20, 2003. The program, Integrated Health and Medical Weapons of Mass

Destruction (WMD) Training Program,  is considered by many to be a

training breakthrough, i.e., the "first of its kind" course that fully

integrates three critically important groups of medical and health care professionals who respond across the W.D. patient care continuum.

These participants comprise three training groups:

' Group 1 - First responders, i.e., emergency medical services (EMS)

' Group 2 - Hospital emergency department clinicians/technicians

' Group 3 - Hospital administration staff


My opinion about WMDs is to stay the HELL away from the infected or contaminated area and if you do get caught in it....make your peace with God VERY QUICKLY. You can't work in it and even if properly equipped, only for an extremely limited time. Col. David Hackworth had an interesting article about this very thing in the latest SOF. Better to nuke the bastards before they even think about using such weapons. According to the Col., there are more than 170,000 dead and disabled as a result of Desert Storm. I've not heard this before. That's a pretty astounding statement.

I'd like to know where Col. Hackworth gets his figures. Can anybody verify them?



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 05:28:15 (ZULU)

Hi Everybody,

   I have been a lurker for monthes. I have been lucky enough to have had two great teachers over the years. The first was Charles Byers aka Chuck. He owned and operated a couple of businesses in Tempe Arizona. If anyone can put me in contact with him I would be greatly appreciated, he will know me. The other great teacher I have been fortunate to work with is Paul Kelly(finest shooter I have ever met and one damn good man). He has had a career that rivals any fictional story ever written. He asked me to dig around and see if any of the old gang is still kicking. Paul ran around with a spook(CIA)by the nickname Brannigan. Thank you for your time.

                               Please e-mail me direct


                                   Sincerely Glenn Frank

 I wish that I could add "Semper Fi" or "De Oppresso Libre" but alas I am a lowly flyboy and have no inspirational addendums.....

Glenn Frank <>
Franklin, Ohio, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 07:26:07 (ZULU)

  I go to knob creek twice a year. They all laugh at a man who brings a 1911 to a machine gun shoot. What they don't know is the pistol competition held in the swamp bottom pays pretty well. There are some very adept pistoleeros in the swamp. But you will never see a Ruger p-anything or a glock of any model, win the shoot. They both suck immensely. In fact glock is a lot like Harley-Davidson, they have to have glock only races because they can't compete with the real deal. Just my opinion. I have to admit the Ruger 22-45 is a very sweet piece though..

  Sorry to be posting something about pistols on a sniper site..

                                      Sincerely Glenn Frank

   I wish that I could add "Semper Fi" or "De Oppresso Libre" But alas I am a lowly flyboy and we have no such inspirational addendums.


Glenn Frank <>
Franklin, Ohio, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 08:04:23 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon, your views on rifles are mine one scopes, its S&B S&B in my gun safe, i've got an aimpoint 7000, but it sits on the shelf next to the safe..

Val the cloggie, and just for Val, Leupolds, especialy the ones sold in Holland !! suck !!ha ha double ha, and Hakko's are even worse.

Jon B.. that wandering zero wouldn't be that top of the range Hakko (nxs) now would it.. also double ha...

that will have humerously ruffled a few feathers, now i better get ready for the insults in welsh and dutch.

back to this Frankfurt Airport thing, some nut case, who was apparently in love( dunno if he was just a fan or actualy intimate) with the female that died when the shuttle went bang, decided he'd had enough, what better way to end it than to steal a plane and fly it into the telecom tower in Frankfurt, any how, he flew around a bit, long enough to get the Luftwaffe scrambled, who then flew around in circles behind him. He landed at FF Main airport when he ran out of fuel and was then arrested. Apparently this fiasco highlighted the total unpreparedness of any of the german authorities to react to the terrorist threat, lots of discussion about that here at the mo. But hell, it doesn't take some love struck nut case to work out that if the shit hits the fan, Mr Schroeder will see that he has been saving his damn euro cents in all the wrong places., I could have told em that the security, country wide sucks.

Whats this new (or old) remington 6...whatever guide rifle? that would be a good base for a 450 marlin bolt gun? or not.

Well its -12 C here, good day to test the cold bore shot on the 300m range. Best i go see if the squaddies are using it. Pete

PS. paul Cockerham, drop me a mail buddy, i need you to do me a favour and the email addy i have for you here won't work. cheers mate.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 08:19:07 (ZULU)

Joe M..

 Best .223 load I have found is 26 to 26.5 grs of either H-335 or W748 with a 50gr VMAX, NozzlerBT or a 55gr Sierra. This load will shoot in anything I have ever shot it in.

Pat <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 13:00:11 (ZULU)

I had the same results with 27 gr H-335.  It works great with the Hornady 55 gr bullets with cannelure.  You can buy them in bulk cheap.

CDC' <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 13:41:17 (ZULU)


Factory loads,? Try the Black Hills Remanufactured stuff. 52gr. match bullet. I got some in the deal when I bought my .223 stealth and it shoots 'em in the less than .5 moa category. Makes me wonder why I reload the little buggers. I agree with Pat on thr reloaded stuff. I use the same 2 powders. With the W748 I use a mag. primer cause it's a full case of dense powder(small grains).


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 13:41:39 (ZULU)

Quick question: Will I need standard, medium or high Badger rings to mount a 6.5X20 LR Leupold on a Rem. LA 700(heavy barrel) using a Badger base?

Thanks in advance,


drmarc <>
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 15:13:10 (ZULU)

Joe:  Message recieved, good to go.  Figure between 1300-1400, depending where I am starting from.

Where the hell is 'Yote bait?  There's fresh chum in the water!  

Geoff M <>
USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 15:21:30 (ZULU)


 Chetek is about 40 minutes north.  There's a Class III dealer in Chippewa Falls (by the tank farm just before you hit 53 North).  Dude has some interesting items in spite of himself.  Then, up more your way, there's a little 800 acre range/ skeet/ bird compound in Bloomer--and a great little restaraunt that serves all you can eat prime rib (The View).  Snowmobile racing is huge, but that would take some damn snow...Otherwise, plan on coming down to Eau Claire for anything else.  I live about 15 miles south of the exit you'll take off I-94 to get up me with more specifics on what you're looking for.

It would be nice to have the option on whether or not to get another small-pox vac!  (grin)

On Hackworth's 170k casualties from GW numba 1; all my friends and neighbors are still kicking.  Granted, it's mostly SF/ airborne folks; but you'd think out of 20% of the fielded force--maybe I would know at least one dead or seriously ill guy???  I have met one guy who was in ill health...supposedly it was gulf syndrome--but it ended up being parkinson's.  So I ask, "What exactly is a hack worth?"

Hmmm, an outbreak of the stomach virus in Boston?  I'm betting in 2-3 years, we'll look back and say "damn, we wuz attacked..."

Thanks for the good start with the .223, gents.  Now I have a narrow field to work in for the stealth.  Time is the enemy now.  

I just realized what a year is to my littlest kids. 35 and 25 percent of their lives, respectively.  It will go by quick for me, but those little "daddy's girls" will have a tougher go of it.  Last time, I made this connection AFTER I got back.  Being young and dumb has it's advantages...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 15:32:23 (ZULU)

Dr. Marc,

On a M70 Win. I had to use the High Badgers. Med wouldn't allow the AO to Adjust. FWIW.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 15:44:28 (ZULU)


You have mail. Large attachment. Clean.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 16:25:02 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>On Hackworth's 170k casualties from GW numba 1; all my friends and neighbors are still kicking.  Granted, it's mostly SF/ airborne folks; but you'd think out of 20% of the fielded force--maybe I would know at least one dead or seriously ill guy???  I have met one guy who was in ill health...supposedly it was gulf syndrome--but it ended up being parkinson's.  So I ask, "What exactly is a hack worth?"<<<<

Good question.

I want to know where he got his figures. As I said before, that's an astounding statement.


Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 16:27:20 (ZULU)

Dr. Marc,

I've had both a Remmy and a Winnie with heavy barrels using that scope, and the Remmy worked with medium rings while the Winnie needed high rings.   So, I suspect that the mediums will work for you.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 16:45:43 (ZULU)

I ranted awhile back on "..the crimes that MAY be committed..." searches in MD and VA.  This is the LE response (ok, to be fair--politically driven response) to all the tips during the sniper attacks.  

This link is along the same lines, in the same jurisdiction:


Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 17:15:16 (ZULU)

Glenn Frank: >But you will never see a Ruger p-anything or a glock of any model, win the shoot. They both suck immensely. In fact glock is a lot like Harley-Davidson...<

Just when "Pistol Wars" finally ends and things get back to as close to normal as they ever get around here, along comes another damn troll :-).  Anyone got a good troll load in .308?

On second thought, maybe this will draw yotebait out of his hide.  Starting to miss the old reprobate.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 17:23:50 (ZULU)

"On Hackworth's 170k casualties from GW numba 1..."

I've go an even more astounding statistic.  77 million American women annually are murdered, beaten, raped, abused, or irritated by their husbands.

My best professional guess is that - similar to the above "statistic" - the 170k number is double distilled bullshit.

I can easily come up with a "syndrome" for any subset of the population you define.  Right away some members of that subset are going to start having problems:  Nausea, blurry vision, insomnia, whatever.

Service members who are injured in the line of duty should be respected and cared for.  But if you let some hack lawyer go fishing in any database, he's going to be able to torture the data into confessing to anything.

I read Hackworth's "About Face".  You have to hand it to the guy; he was a great combat soldier.  He deserves our fawning respect but a statistician is a statistician and a combat soldier is a combat soldier.  

CDC' <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 17:34:14 (ZULU)

Paging:   TONY KILMER of Spokane Wa.

I am in need of getting intouch with you.

Please E-mail me.


Stuart S. Sattler <>
Wa, U.S.of A. - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 18:17:36 (ZULU)


This is not shooting related but Joe M. forgot to mention the Leinenkugel Brewing Company in Chippewa Falls. You need to do some extensive product sampling here.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 18:33:50 (ZULU)


  Apologize for the flash but I was offered a deal today and need any real world info I can get on a .50 Beowolf on a RRA rifle. Built by Alexander Arms- I will check their site later but this deal passes by tomorrow afternoon. Money looks good, just know nada on how this cartridge performs or whether the AR reciever will stand this cartridge without premature wear. Pitch is this was designed with DOD research money but no info on whether it was adopted by Mil or passed over for problems.



Bill Moore <>
Goodview, VA, USA USA USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 19:02:50 (ZULU)

Bolt,   Went through a 6 hr wmd class a few weeks ago, with a focus on small pox and the vaccine.  It seems that after you get the shots/pokes what ever you want to call them, you can't have any contact with your kids for several days.  I have decided that since where I live is not going to be the "ground zero" for any kind of wmd attack that I am going to wait till there are actual cases then get the vaccine.  Just rember the "rule of thumb" on wmd scenes and stay up hill, up wind, up stream.

Mk4, could you e-mail me info on those classes in tx?.



Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 19:36:44 (ZULU)

Ok this is going too far, I'm pissed!  Click my name for a news story that is sure to piss a lot of other people off.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 21:10:51 (ZULU)

>>>>>>Mk4, could you e-mail me info on those classes in tx?.<<<<<<

Robert H.

Email sent w/attachment.


Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 21:26:30 (ZULU)

I'm proud to live in a country where really rich people can freely spout off and display the fact that it doesn't take intelligence to be wealthy.

Shooting topic... anyone seen a listing for an AR10A4 upper for sale by someone reputable...I'm looking for a flat-top, preferably 16".

medicjim <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 21:34:50 (ZULU)

Robert H (medicboy)

You got mail.  No attachments, no virus.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:27:13 (ZULU)

I had a great day today.  I bored holes in the sky over Miami for over an hour and had a ball. Tomorrow I'm going to do it some more.  This job is killing me....ouch.  The Dave Clark's are the best.  Rifles, Airplanes and is good.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:27:24 (ZULU)

Dr. Marc

With a Badger base, you can use Medium rings P/N 306-20.


Marty <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:29:28 (ZULU)

Ken M.,

 I left my cell phone number on your answering machine.  Call me.  I just had a very interesting conversation reference the April shoot at McCoy.  First, it is too easy to do it.  Second, timing is everything, and our current timing sucks baaaadddd.  Let's just say that I am glad I am leaving.  Traffic will suck around here real soon :))  I'm blasting an email for back-up.


 The use of this post for comps can be arranged with a simple concept paper/ request from your agency or organization (strap hangers can fall-in with the unit/ group no problems).  The only thing needed is a LE or Mil sponsor.  I'm not going to post the POC here, but I will reply to email inquiries from any of you that I know.  Unit/ LE reps-include addresses/ agency in your email-I'll send a range book with certification requirements, phone listings, and a 1 page info paper on how to do it from start to finish.  Well, at least for the first ten of ya...whudda I gittin me-self into here???

This POC staffs the whole deal herself.  She gets Command Group OK, then arranges Barracks, Chow (mil-free, the rest pay as you go), tours/ briefs, Ranges (by Type), internal transportation, everything! MREs for one a day could be arranged too.  Like I said, too easy!  A good schedule for this:

WED-PM Arrivals

THUR-Tours, briefs, safety overview (range ops SOP), then zero at KD


SAT-AM Comps, PM-Sniper range (movers)-Possible CAPEX with drill-units

SUN- Brunch/ departure

This can be set up any way at months (usually) are March thru Late May, and Mid-August through November.  DEC-FEB is too cold, and the summer is AT time.

Now, if we lay on for April, there is a better than even chance that we would be "cancelled" at any point right up to the day of execution (most likely 1 FEB). I am thinking that this isn't a good way to welcome someone who travels far, takes off work etc.  Most of you already know exactly what I am hinting at here--but I'm thinking the scope of it would blow yer mind.  My advice is to forget April and wait and see what comes.  Then, once we have a clear idea on when it ends, we just let "her" set it up at a later date!    Of course, I'm spending a year elsewhere--but I am coming straight back here into a job that could really impact future shoots.

If you like to bet against the odds, I can lay this all on Monday morning.  I have the command group OK to proceed for Ken M's unit sponsorship (more or less).  Again, we'd only be certain of success once our ranges went "hot" each day.  Just post go/ no-go suggestions. If enough folks don't care if it falls apart--I'll lay it on anyway.  

And no, we can't hold it on my farm.  The Missus would skin me alive for taking up those last few moments of quality time..:))  BTW, I'm already in deep stuff over a few days in April at Badlands that just hit my calendar!  (Bobby-email, no attachments).

Well, it sure was an enlightening day.  I am re-motivated!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:38:50 (ZULU)

Medical information here, bypass if not interested..........

Folks, there are A LOT of issues and good/bad information out there on small pox and the vaccine. If you want the propper poop on the subject, go to this CDC site and read ALL of it. Essentially, this is what most of the DMAT's are using for the basis of instruction. I wish that I could give you the exact information that we received last night, but we aren't supposed to do it.

You have to look at everything as Pre-Attack and Post-Attack. There are huge differences in the recommendations.

The main concerns personally are simple:

1. I have a history of skin problems, Grade 3 Acne as a young buck. Really nasty and embarassing stuff. Even at dang near 49 years old, I still get zits. Although not ecxema(exema), it may be considered a skin disorder.

2. I can either get the vaccine through the hospital where I work (whenever the decision is made on what the hell they are going to do), or with the DMAT I am attached to. Either way I am considered first line/first responder, which makes the decision tougher.

3. There are so many liability, insurance and workers comp issues that nobody really knows who will be responsible for covering my ass iffin I get really sick, lose a limb, or go prone permanently.

I am still leaning towards taking my chances and foregoing the 15 bifurcated needle pricks. Like I heard on one of my favorite war movies that I now can't call the name of now (brain fart), "it's a good day to die". I'm too dang mean and ornery (like Yote Bait) to let them little bugs kill me. I am a lot more worried about a tank car of chlorine turning over on the highway at this point.

Doctor Bolt Out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 22:42:35 (ZULU)


    Using that same logic it can be inferred that there are seventy-seven million American women who have hearing defects or JUST DON'T LISTEN!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 23:08:43 (ZULU)

OK gang anybody have a source for military gore-tex rain suits?? Found out just a minute ago that Military Clothing Sales has the jackets but the pants are "a controlled item" ! OH Brother!!

Let me know off line - NO I don't want civilian equivalent want the real deal! Or I really only need the pants.


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 00:16:51 (ZULU)


I have a great favor to ask of all of you.

My Wife's younger sister has been battling cancer for some time now and making good headway.

Today she got some news that was less than encouraging.

I would respectfully ask that all of you offer prayers for Carol's continued good health.

I know that this is off-topic, but too bad. I know of no finer batch of people, and that's why I'm asking.

Many Thanks,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Linas, NM, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 00:25:55 (ZULU)


Will talk to the big guy in the sky tonight sir! Dang, what is going on around here, lots of good folks getting down.

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 01:02:51 (ZULU)


After looking at the adverse reactions on that page I'm gonna take my chances that my initial innoculation is still good. If that's what the vaccine does, the actual disease must really suck.


You have mail. N/A.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 01:18:19 (ZULU)


As far as a Tactical Carbine scope, have you considered a Trijicon ACOG. They are not variable, but for a 4x scope acquisition is fast and the glass is clear.


Prayers on the way. And I agree with you on the spirit of brotherhood that is exhibited on the site.


Card has been sent. Please keep us all informed about Steve. He is a great man and I look forward to throwing more lead downrange with him. Some good people may be down, but they are not out! Prayers still being sent.

I don't think I'm ready to compete yet, but might like to help/work the SC Sniper Match. Checking my schedule now and will let you know if your interested in the help.

John Levens

John Levens <>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 01:24:26 (ZULU)


Will add your loved one's name to the list I keep in my heart for prayers of recovery.  Continue to be a source of support for her!  We will support you!

I also have a different list, one that contains the names of dealmakers from Nigeria and those farts who propugate viruses, both real and electronic......

"Lord, may these scum enjoy the feel of a warm rain shower of high grade kerosene while in the close proximity of a fully functional Zippo product!"


Les <>
Canton, CT, USA! - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 02:24:30 (ZULU)


Thanks..I WILL take you up on your work offer! Let me know.

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 02:28:00 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>>> SNIPER COUNTRY MATCH UP-DATE<<<<<<<<<<<<<

OK everyone knows the dates are 6-8 June, 2003 at BadLands Tactical Training Facility, Grandfield, Oklahoma.

Now for the new info. A registration form has been posted to the BadLands web-site at check it out!!

This is a TEAM Match. OK you don't have a partner...NO SWEAT, we'll team you "singles" up so that we have a total of 30 Teams. Gawd that's 60 Hawgs, Rosterfarians, Dudes, Undudes, Catshooters etc. all in the same place at the same time!!! LOOK OUT Grandfield...and Witchita Falls and Lawton and everyplace else in between!!!

For some things you might want to think about "training" for!

Might be a good idea to have your stalking skills in order - maybe, maybe not but...

Another thing you might also consider "training" up on are your handgun skills! You never know!!

Planning on attending??

Best have...lets see about 150 rounds of rifle ammo and 100 rounds of handgun ammo with you! Oh you might want the handgun to go with that ammo!

We'll do our best to have information on lodging in the area posted either here or on BadLands web-site, hopefully both, within the next couple of weeks.

We will keep you posted!!

Just remember...I don't give hints very freely so take what I do give and learn!! HeeHeeHeeHee  :-) You all wanted a SC Match! You're going to get a MATCH!!!

Oh we're having TOOOOOOOO much fun with this!! Evil grin, Evil grin!

Sarge and the SC Staff

Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 03:32:00 (ZULU)


>>>> I can easily come up with a "syndrome" for whatever subset of the population you want.  Right away some members of that subset are going to start having problems.  Nausea, blurry vision, insomnia, whatever...........But if you let some hack lawyer go fishing in any database, he's going to be able to torture the data into confessing to anything. <<<<

Man, you said a mouthfull.  That's called "objective analysis". To wit: you provide the objective and I'll provide the analysis to support it. Much of what passes for scientific inquiry proves nothing beyond the fact that with a cleverly worded grant proposal, you can get the government to pay for just about anything.

Don't even get me started on "cancer clusters" and haute tension power lines.....


Wuzzagrunt <>
NY, NY, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 04:45:44 (ZULU)


Headed out for duty a quick post.

Bruce, Carol is in our prayers. My wife is a survivor of breast cancer, so I know the personal toll this takes on loved ones. Godspeed...

New info on the SC shoot looks good. Will peruse more, at length, on the 'morrow.

Have a surprise coming up for the SC members...stay tuned. Probably in the next week or two.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 05:04:56 (ZULU)

Mk4,  agreed on the small pox thing.  It is a risk vs. benefit thing.  If I was still working in the "big city"  I would opt for the vaccine, but out where I am now... No, not until there is a real and present danger.  For those that work in places like D.C., New York, L.A.  (Highly likely target areas)  then it is a no brainer.

Off to bed.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 07:18:31 (ZULU)

What BDC cylinders do the Leupold 3.5x10 LR M-3 scopes come with from the factory?  Are there custom makers so you can match your load to the BDC or do you compensate?



Pat <>
ID, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 15:38:54 (ZULU)

What the Enemy sees.  This is well worth reading:

Intelligent discussion of our situation with NK:

Powell is playing his own game and has been for years:

Where did Brian go?  

CDC' <>
- Friday, January 10, 2003, at 16:13:31 (ZULU)

Bobby-card inbound for Steve!

Sarge-email, no attachments ref: Gortex.

On Bio attacks:  Yeah, high density populations are likely targets--but consider a higher dispersion scenario.  Large groups gathered and going home to points all over.  Cruise liners come to mind.  First, you'd want to find out infection patterns, and calculate incubation times so most are sick AFTER they disperse.  Hey wait...didn't I read something about minor viruses on cruise ships?  Didn't boston have an outbreak of similar stuff?  I wonder....

I wonder what is next.

Come hell or high water (Uncle Sam excepted, he may throw a wrench) Blake and I will attend the April Basic rifle in Badlands.  Anyone else planning on being out that way?  I sure wish we could make the SC shoot in June though.  But alas, I may be attending a bigger match that time frame! Heheh.  

I'm hoping Blake follows in Andy's footsteps...he's heading that way already with his skills.  And, young ladies are calling the house for him (finally!).  Yep, things are looking up.  

 I sealed some files yesterday.  Updated will, SGLI, and all that.  Any advice on how to clue the wife in without freaking her out?  I know it's just basic common sense to do this stuff, but she will take it all wrong...I've told her I am in more danger flying my whirly-gig than I will be in over there--but she is "on edge" anyway.  A will would rock her world.  Hey, I think she actually likes me after all!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, January 10, 2003, at 16:52:38 (ZULU)


I am very interested in the Duty Roster Match, but I have a couple of questions.

First and foremost, I have no formal training long range shooting. I have never shot in a match before...I shoot out to 885yds at least twice a month. Typically I shoot sub moa.  

What do you think the minimum requirements are for someing like this.



bryan <>
CA, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 17:01:34 (ZULU)

Joe M,

      Make up an info packet, heck several copies wouldn't hurt, have them witnessed and notarized, file with the State (if necessary). It should contain your will, DNR order, copies of any insurance policies, deeds, titles, birth certificates, etc., and specific instructions that you wish to be carried out in event of your death or inability to make or carry out these decisions on your own. Include a living POA for your wife.

      Do you have a trusted attorney? Give him a copy. How about a close relative or friend? Put one in a saftey deposit box. Everything should be sealed, with instructions to be given to your wife, kids, or other designated survivors and opened only in the event of the tragedy described above. That way she won't even know that it exists unless she needs it!

Be safe,


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 17:22:30 (ZULU)


Thanks for links, again. Brian is teaching, I believe in FL?? He said somethin last week, I think. I'm showin symptoms of CRS in all the wrong places and at the wrong times.


The caps are .308,.223,.30-06,.300WM I believe. There is a company in Californicate that will make a custom one if you send 'em the data. I can't remember the name but they have a web site and I'm sure someone here will enlighten you.


Don't tell her you made a new one. Tell her where the one is kept that you and your lawyer made a few years back. wink, wink. Just to refresh her memory.

Bhermam, Brian.

I don't know squat either but I'm gonna go learn. I went to my first match last fall and was amazed at the knowledge and talent. Most everyone was willing to share or help. If I couldn't shoot I'd go just to help out. It's a great bunch of people. You'll have a blast.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 17:35:39 (ZULU)

Please check this site out.

The video inspection of these Rifle barrels should be an eye opener.

Steve from New Joisey

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne , New Joisey, US of A - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 18:17:30 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Gonna play the devil's advocate here!  As an insurance agent, I have seen first-hand when preparation was not thorough and a loss occured, and the stress it causes all survivors and family members.  You MUST discuss everything with your partner beforehand!  You are a team, therefore the larger interest of future family security is greater than the moments of fear and uncertainty you will share while discussing such a sensitive topic.  Remember why it is called a "living will!"

Joe, she needs to have HER affairs in order also!  As she is a public servant, both of your occupations are slightly elevated risk exposures.  All of the recommendations you have received so far are valid and smart, but you can not leave out the most important people, your spouse and dependent children!  Together, you, your spouse and children should meet personally with your insurance agent(s) (auto/home/farm/life), personal attorney and your minister/priest.  They will be of GREAT assistance and comfort to you all!

Guys, it is not just about the dollars, it is the peace of mind that comes when open and candid conversation leaves no questions, doubts or fears!  You will both perform your jobs better and more professionally without distraction or worry!  Do not leave your hard earned estate to the greedy probate attorneys!  Make your wishes known now, and keep them updated! The whole financial services industry has re-evaluated its thinking since Sept. 11, 2001.

When you talk about this on an annual basis, it becomes easier to discuss without emotions and your imaginations running amok.  The financial security of your families is just as important as your being willing to physically fight off an intruder/attacker!


Les <>
Canton, CT, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 18:51:17 (ZULU)

To everyone - A living will is a must.  This is the document that keeps your child from the misery of someday having to make the decision to pull the plug on his/her mother or father.  I've seen it up close and personal, you DO NOT want to leave this to your child...the guilt is horrible for them.  It is such as simple thing, but it effectively protects your children from immense suffering.

medicjim <>
- Friday, January 10, 2003, at 19:33:45 (ZULU)

Joe M. & Alan

<Put one in a saftey deposit box>

I would not do this.  Reason is, when my Dad died, everything (will, deed, insurance policies, etc.) was in a jointly owned box at the bank.  We were not allowed to remove anything at all, even my Mom's personal items, except to make copies until the will was probated.

If you take this option, I'd put the box in her name to make certain she has unfettered access.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:10:59 (ZULU)


The SC shoot is getting all you pumped up. I already have a partner and were NOT telling...;-)

Bruce, wife goes in for her yearly cancer check up and mammogram. Will be holding my breath on Monday until the results come in...

Looks like we lost an officer up in south of Portland. Shot in the face and not expected to make it. Dammit!

More on my time off next Monday/Tuesday.

Anyone hear from Undude?

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:21:22 (ZULU)


Do you have dope for various ranges out to the 885yds?? If so you'll do fine. Sign up, show up, & shoot!! No matter how well you do (even if you win) you WILL learn some new things, whch is the real prize.  Your sub-moa will be very useful since there are always some short range (50-300yds) precision/speed drills. Also, don't ignore the sitting/kneeling/standing positions. Match directors are a sadistic lot, but all competitors are tortured equally and after it is over you'll be asking for more.

danny mull <>
- Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:22:25 (ZULU)

on a lighter note...

Geof (ex royal marine) rang me up this morning, " ey up Pete, wot you doin' tis afternoon? how about a spot of deer hunting?" well how could i resist?? only slight problem was i had all my hunting gear and rifles in the damn safe in my appartment at work. bugger. He says he will lend me his 22.250, ahhh a leupold scope, how will i ever live that down on tze roster.. shit, deer huntin' with a Leupold is better than no deer hunting at all. (ain't that true Val) anyhow, had a dig about in the cellar and came up with some old hunting gear and cement covered boots, will have to do I figured. Lucky i had some new steiner bino's in the cupboard. So off I went to meet the others on the training area at 15.00hrs. dressed like Wurzel Gummage ( Jon B knows who he is, a scarecrow). Rainer the forester tells us he expects that we might also see some pigs, bugger, 22.250 not allowed for pigs, Rainer came to the rescue, " you can use my 'Berg stutzen' ( over under double rifle, one barrel is a small cal, other larger. in this case 5.6x50R and 30R Blaser) only thing is ,, its a Blaser, , Leupold..Blaser, Leupold.. Blaser.. AAHHRGG. Pig, take the blaser, at least its got a Zeiss on it..

Anyhow, gets in place up a high seat, after an uneventfull stalk in, hadn't been ´there long when 2 deer crossed the open ground in front, a buck and a doe,(we where only after kids(kitz)) about a half hour later, i see a doe and 2 kids browsing thier way through the trees to my front, both kids are bucks, one is much larger then the other(usualy one is more dominant and takes more milk and grows faster and stronger), i waited intil they came into the open and then i shot the smaller of the 2 kids. It bolted at the shot , but showed sure sign of a boiler room hit. waited until 19.00 hopeing to see a pig or a fox, no joy, rainer wanted to test his new dog tracking so we let it follow the blood trail, deer had gone 60 yards, them little bullets made a big hole, but it still ran a way, Anyway, then Rainers phone went and it was the Cops, someone had run into a deer on the other side of the area and buggered thier car up and the deer was still kicking. poor thing,

An interesting afternoon, I saw 6 deer, Geoff saw 16 (and didn't get a shot off) and Steve saw 12(i think) and a fox, didn't get a shot either. That buck kid will taste good.

Looks like i bought a Jeep Cherokee, so we can now go back to SUV country.

Jon B and i have been chatting about haveing a sniper shootout match for us Euro Hawgs, maybe at Bisley or Sennelager.. might be interesting if it comes off. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:31:38 (ZULU)


Your imput gives additional ammo to those guys who have wanted to buy a fireproof gun safe, but can't talk the spouse into the investment!  A safe will honestly pay for itself in the long run!  When you calculate the cost per year of a safe deposit box and its VERY limited accessibility, a home safe is the best option available for security of valuables and paperwork.  Plus, unfettered 24hr 7x365 access by the owners!


Les <>
Canton, CT, USA! - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 20:32:38 (ZULU)

Well,, the TN match is a go.  Match will be Mach 29/30.  Fees for team is $50, $25 for a single and you'll be matches with another single.  I have the web address for the COC for Manchester TN, for food, rooms etc,,,  anyone interested please let me know. COF will be undisclosed, but I'll have a list of neccesity items by the end of the day.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 21:18:27 (ZULU)

Ref: Gore Tex

Thanks to everyone that responded. Have been found and problem solved!

Thanks again!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 21:23:49 (ZULU)

Joe Sizemore,

Incomming no attachments.  Sent out yesterday.

Take Care


Pat <>
ID, - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 22:11:21 (ZULU)

Pat, (aka. patncindy)

you need a new name.  Too many Pat's ;))  You have email incoming with an attachment regarding M3 BDC's.


I got the damn thing TODAY!!!!!!  I don't know how long it's been in the US,, but he didn't call me until Dec 24th saying it here and then didn't bother shipping intil a day or two ago.  It was 150 miles from the house, and I had no way to get it.... We need to talk about that off line.

Looks great,, heavy bastard,, Got the reamer yesterday,, dropping it off tomorrow.  Should have a barreled action by end of next week.  Now,, if I can get a damn Prone stock for this mutha,, I'd be set.

I wanted to tell you thanks again for all your help.  Had you not gone the extra mile, and Border backed ya,, I fear I may have had to spend a VERY unpleasant stink in the local jail for assault. Please tell Lee I said thanks also,, and let him know it's perfect!

Anyone who has a way to contact John at Tactical Stocks,, please give him a call and let him know I'm waiting ;))


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 10, 2003, at 22:56:48 (ZULU)

Dealing with all this junk e-mail isn't worth the trouble.  

If you have someone's e-mail address, you can sign them up for a ton of bullshit spam.  It takes no brains.  Any fool can do it.  In fact, one is.  Whoever the pimply-faced, bad-breath little fist-f****r is, he certainly isn't demonstrating any ingenuity.    

Do we HAVE to continue posting our e-mail addresses?  We're just making ourselves easy targets by doing so.  Isn't there some other way?  This has gotten ridiculous.  

CDC' <>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 00:19:14 (ZULU)

Well CDC how about a compromise.. Maybe it is possible to make it so that when a person clicks on a roster-posters name the reader then has to enter their OWN registered SC name and password in order to obtain the original poster's email link? (Sort of like one does when posting themselves)

Ken and Marius et al would be the ones to ask on the technical side... but my suggestion allows for email contact between rosterhogs and kills most data mining.

Charles Of Memorable Places Consulting <>
CCCPalifornia, - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 00:48:07 (ZULU)

A good up and coming site for you medical types:

A good site for military gear nuts:

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 01:02:41 (ZULU)


Undude is doing fine and I expect a more detailed status report in a couple of days...

Michael <>
CA, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 02:54:06 (ZULU)

CDC, I also now get about 40-50 spam emails a day along with 3-5 virus infected emails. It is just frustrating that folks think that this is funny.

Michael <>
CA, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 02:59:59 (ZULU)

Charles:  I like it.  

CDC' <>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 03:06:27 (ZULU)

Gents.  This is a great bunch of folks.  While we piss and moan over reloads and rifles etc we still feel comfortable asking for help when shit hits the fan in our personal lives.  Bruce, I'll put in a plug for your family with the big guy.  Apparently I have an open line with him right now as things have gotten much better with my woman.  She ended up needing surgery, spine fused in one spot, got a bunch of hardware in there, still needs dental work.....BUT adversity appears to have breathed new life into our relationship and things are looking good.

On another note.  All you active duty guys...good luck.  USMC just implemented a service wide stop loss according to Stars and Stripes.  I think we know where that is headed.  Between North Korea and Iraq I think we are headed down that road again.  Shit.  Time to clean up the yard again I guess.

Ya'll be cool.

Gooch out

Gooch <>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 08:35:01 (ZULU)

Brit RM Commandos departed for other climates yesterday( 45 and 29 I believe), and i just got a Reservist NOK and Address verifier update form to fill in through the post, makes me wonder, the reservist thing could be a co-incidence(what would they want with an ole fart like me? Volksturm? home guard? could be, reservists standing in for regulars freeing them up for active duty,) makes me wonder what is going down. As i said last week, bunch of blokes at work already on warning orders, ( most ex RAF, but all radar tech, sat con, electronics tech, ie, air support/defence associated trade discliplins, medics all so on warning orders( especialy the TA). Squaddies here concentrating of NBC, First Aid, and Weapons Training, Brigade ex next week.  We live in interesting times.

Bloke near here selling a Weatherby, MK 5 with a shillen barrel in 338 lap Mag,Mc Millan stock I think, i might have a look out of seems to be a decent price but its probably shot out.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 09:11:55 (ZULU)

Pete L-  How goes it buddy?   Getting your reserve info up date request may not be an accident.  One of my best buddies recently went on a terminal leave from the Army planning on retirement after 30yrs (broken with some reserve time) of been there…done that in the SF.  He’s been all over from Cambodia and Laos (in the day) to Africa, Kosovo and everywhere in between.  He has lots of trigger time indeed.  Well he just got a call from the army telling him he was being retained as active duty and would be having orders cut for a deployment.  I don’t think he sees the humor in all this.  

Lets see…a very combat experienced greenie beanie top sergeant that speaks Arabic…hmmmm  where do you think he’s going?

That .338 sounds interesting too.  That could kill a piggy ya know =)

Bis Bald,

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, SoCal, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 16:30:15 (ZULU)


My heartfelt thanks for all the warm wishes and prayers for Carol. I count myself as indeed blessed to have so many wonderful friends.

Now, congratulations are in order!

Shep Shepherd, the UK sniper instructor that was featured in the recent History Channel series on sniping, has just received a singular honor. The New Years Honours list has been published, and Shep will soon be going to Buckingham Palace to receive his MBE (Member of the British Empire) medal from the Queen, in recognition of his contributions as a sniper instructor. I am told that it is not that common for a soldier to be so honored. The fact that Shep does what he does should makes this even better, in my opinion!

To all who are preparing to deploy, Godspeed. Our prayers are with you.

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 18:57:30 (ZULU)

I've answered questions about scope parallax about 300 times, and it's always a long drawn out thing, going several e-mails, and a few phone calls.  It doesn't seem to make any difference how long the guy has been shooting, this one always keep screwing guys up.

OK... here goes (Whew, this is gonna be a long one).

There are several things that go on inside a scope, and in the eyes at the same time. Some of them workie against each other.

But some terminology first... and we'll leave out lenses that are there to correct some optical or color errors, but don't have anything to do with image forming.

We'll start at the front of it all, and work back.

1 - The "Object"... the thing that you are looking (shooting) at.

2 - The "Objective". The front lens is called the "Objective"... it forms the first image of the "object" we are looking at (that why they call it the Objective ;)

It is the lens that "captures" all the light, that is solely responsible for the image quality of the scope... if it is poor, you can't fix the poor image later.

This lens is usually made of two different types of glasses (called "elements") sandwiched together, and is called an "Achromat".

The Achromat is fully color corrected for blue and green.  The red wavelengths are partially corrected, but have what is called "residual color errors".

This is the normal type of objective used in shooting and spotting scopes.  In quality, they can vary from badd, through sorta OK, to pretty damn good.

If one of the elements is made of an "ED" glass, or a "Fluorite" (CaF) glass, the two element lens can be very good to friggin' outstanding.

In some instances, objective lenses are made of three elements, and all three colors (blue, green, and red) are completely corrected.  This type of lens is called an "Apochromat", and this is the finest lens that can be bought.  The best of these can also have "ED" glass, or Fluorite as one of the elements.

3 - The "First image plane".  The Objective focuses the light to make an image of the subject, just like a camera lens.  This image is upside down, and right/left reversed.  This is the first image plane, but NOT the "First image plane" that is talked about when shooters talk about reticles.

4 - The "Erector lens"... (if it is a group of lenses, it is called the "Erector cell").  Because the first image is upside down/wrong way around, we (as shooters) can't use it... so we flip it around with a simple optical group called the "erector cell".  This cell gives us a new image that is right way around, called the second image plane.  Moving this cell causes this second image plane to move... so micrometer spindles are put against the cell, to get elevation and windage adjustments.

5 - The "Second image plane".  This is the second real image plane in the scope, and this is the image plane that shooters call the "First image plane" when talking about reticles.  In a fixed power scope, or in a variable with a "First image plane reticle", the reticle would be placed in this image plane.

This is where Premier Reticle puts those magical "Gen II" reticles.

6 - The "Zoom group".  In a variable scope with standard (non-magnifying) reticle, the zoom group of optics would follow #5.  This group of lenses can change the size of the image plane in #5 and then form a new (third) image plane behind it.

7 - The "Third image plane"  In variable power scopes, this is the plane that the reticle is placed in.  By being here, it allows the image to change sizes, but the reticle to stay the same size.  In the context of reticles, this is the image plane that is referred to as the "second image plane"

8 - The "Eyepiece".  This optical group is like a jewelers loupe. Is is (or should be) a super fine magnifier.  It's only job in the whole world, is to focus on the reticle.

Let me repeat that for those that live in Rio Linda...


It CANNOT adjust, or compensate for, or do anything else when things look bad in the scope, or when you can't hit the target... and you CANNOT use the eyepiece to try to correct for parallax.  That is sheer folly at best, and raw stupidity at worst.

If you expect it to do anything else, then stop wasting your time with long-range shooting, cuz you are never gonna make it past mediocre... and take up golf!!

OK... now that you know what the insides are like... lets move on. We'll use the zoom scope for our examples. cuz if you can understand the zoom scope, then the fixed scope is a walk in the park.

In the scope that is set for infinity range, the object forms an image behind the objective (the first image plane)... the erector cell "sees" that image, and flips it over and makes it right way around in a NEW image plane (the Second image plane).  The zoom group adjusts the size of this image plane, and makes a NEW image plane (the Third image plane) that is the desired size.  There is a reticle placed in this last image plane, and the eyepiece focuses on the reticle AND the image at the same time.

When things are good, that's how the scope workie!


But... now the booger falls into the soup... IF the third image plane and the reticle are not exactly, (and I mean EX-ACT-LY) in the same place, then your eye cannot see them LOCKED together as one picture.

It sees them as two separate pictures, and the eye will look at each separately, and the eye can also look AROUND one to see the other.


Lenses are measured in metrics (aka Millimeters).  Not because the Europeans wanted the metric system 20 years ago, but because optical strings and chains of lenses (like scopes) are really a string of numbers.

There are constant ratios of "this divided by that's" that give image sizes, "F-ratios", and image locations.  It's so damn easy to do the engineering using a 10 based system that the optical guys were using the metric system way back in the 1800's.

The objective has a "Focal length"... this is the distance behind the lens that the first image plane falls when making an image if a subject that is at infinity (or very damn far away).

If the objective has a focal length of 100mm, then the image of that 1000 yd target is 100mm behind the lense.

But the problem with geometric optics (which is what we are dealing with here), is that they follow the laws of geometry... and optics make triangles like rabbits make babies.

AND... in an optical chain, when you change one thing, one angle, one ANYTHING, everything else follows along and changes BASED on the ratios involved at THAT stage.

If we take that same target, and move it to 100 yds, the image in the scope moves BACKWARDS, going further into the scope.  Not by much, but it doesn't take much, cuz we're dealing with very small distances inside the scope, and very high magnifications.

How far the image moves back, and what it's new position is, is predictable by the mathematical ratios of the angles formed by the subject and the first image... OR (for us dummies that lost our slip sticks) by the ratio of the distances to the Target and the focal length, multiplied by the focal length. then ADDED to the focal length.

The target is at 100 yds (91440mm), the focal length of the objective is 100, so the displacement is 1/914 x 100, which means that the first image is now at ~100.1mm.  Hmmm only .1mm, that doesn't seem like much.

Read the following paragraph twice...

In a 1x scope, 0.1mm would mean nothing... but this displacement is repeated throughout the chain, AND if any of the optical groups change the image ratio (aka image size), then the displacement (aka ERROR) is changed in direct proportion to the increase in magnification.  So in a 3x scope, it would be .3mm, and in a 10x scope, it would be 1mm, and in a 30 power scope, the image would be 3mm behind the reticle.

Now, you should have seen a pattern in this last paragraph.


With the same error in the objective (scope focused at 1000, and target at 100), the parallax INCREASES WITH MAGNIFICATION... got it?


OK... now, if we do the same math for closer distances, like 50 yds, and 25 yds we will see that the error gets really big, so that with a target at 50 yards, and the scope set at 35 or 65 yds, the parallax makes the combination un-usable.


Parallax is... when the image of the target, and the reticle, are NOT in exactly the same plane, and by moving the eye up and down... or side to side, either the target OR the reticle appears to move in relation to the other.

You might see the target move and the reticle stay still, or you might see the target stay still and the reticle move over it... both are exactly the same, and which you see, is only a matter of your OWN perception.

It is NOT possible to have parallax while moving up and down, but not have it when you are moving side to side.

If you think that is what you have, you have other problems... either you are moving the rifle, or you have eye problems.



This is the only way to do it...

First, screw the eyepiece out (CCW) all the way, until it stops.

If you wear glasses, put them on.

Hold the scope up and look OVER the scope at the sky, and relax your eyes.  Then move the scope in front of your eye.

The reticle should look fuzzy

Turn the eyepiece in 1/2 turn, and do the same thing again.  You will have to do for a while before the reticle starts to look better.  When you start getting close, then turn the eyepiece 1/4 turn each time.

Do this until the reticle is fully sharp and fully BLACK immediately when you look through the scope.

Than back off one turn and do it again to make sure you are in the same place.

Then LOCK the ring on the eyepiece, and leave it alone forever!


Set the scope down on something sold, where it can see something at a long distance... half a mile of longer is good.

It can be on the rifle, and rested in sand bags at the range... but pick something at least 1000 yds away... even further if possible.

If the scope has an "AO" Adjustable objective, then set it for infinity, and look at the distant object, and move your head from one side to the other, or up and down if you prefer.

If the reticle seems to move, there is parallax.

Change the distance setting and try again... if you are very careful, you can move your eye, and adjust the distance at the same time, seeing which direction gets better.

With front objective adjustments, you can turn them either way without worry... BUT with side adjustment scopes, like the MK4-M3, the M3-LR, or the other LR family of scopes, the adjustment must ALWAYS be made from the infinity end of the dial.  Turn the adjustment all the way until it stops (past infinity), and then start turning it in a little at a time, until there is no parallax.  If you "overshoot" the proper setting, you can't just turn back a little, you must go back to stop at the end of the dial, and start over again.

While "AO"s dials are locked in place, and if the indicated distance doesn't match the real distance, there's nothing you can do about it... the side focus dials are not locked in place.

Once you have found the setting for infinity on the side focus models, then (CAREFULLY) loosen the screws, and set the dial so that little sideways infinity symbol is lined up with the hash mark, so it is calibrated.  You can also make little marks or put on a paper tape for other ranges instead of using the round dots that don't match any range.

Now you can set it to infinity, but remember that you MUST turn the dial all the way past infinity to the stop, EVERY TIME before going from a close range to a longer range.

If you are set for 500 yds, you can go directly to 100 yds, but if you are set for 100 and want to set it to 500, you MUST go all the way back to the stop, and then go to 500

This is because there is a fair amount of backlash (aka SLOP) in this wheel linkage to the focusing cell, so you can set it only from one direction to make sure the slop is always on one side.  The other problem with it is, even if you decided that you wanted to calibrate from the other end... the recoil will push the cell back.  SO you must ALWAYS set these dials from the infinity end of their scales.

To make it easy to not have to remember... I always start from the end stop, when I change range, no matter which direction I'm going in... it adds about 0.023 seconds!


Now... you gots a friend that says to set up a scope a different way???... he don't know doodly-squat about scopes.

The guy at the range said to do it a different way... he don't know shit either.

You know some guy who's in the Marines says to use your eyepiece to correct parallax... he doesn't know shit about optics either.

You got a friend that shoots benchrest and says something different... he don't know crapola!

This is the way, the only way, there is no other way.

... as Rushbo would say... this is from GOD-da ;).

You gots questions, just e-mail me.

You wanna "debate it", then go play golf, cuz you're wasting my time!

'lito (gettin' grumpy in my old age!)

CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 19:14:17 (ZULU)

I don't talk with you guys very much because of my busy schedule.  However, can anyone tell me if the Steyr Tactical Elite is available yet.  I sure would like to know.  Any help is appreciated

Brandon <>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 19:30:21 (ZULU)

As some of you might be aware of, BadLands had scheduled a team match to be held May 2-4, 2003. We have decided to cancel this match, so that we can throw all available resources into the SC Match. Get ready IS going to be a good one!

Bobby Whittington <>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 19:44:50 (ZULU)

Kittywhacker, you forgot the easiest way to permanently remove paralax. I do it with a hammer. By striking the AO adjustment at the correct angle, you can drive the focal plane right into the reticle. I know that's true, because once, I drove the focal plane too far and broke the reticle. A little too much hammer impact can do that. That's also why it's a complete waste of time to lap rings. Once you start tapping the scope hard, it doesn't matter if the scope is alligned in the rings or not. You're going to flex it anyway. One of the guys I know overcorrected his focal plane way too much. He was adjusting a Tasco the same way, and the adjustments must be done with a ball peening hammer, because Tascos have small adjustment ranges. He drove the first focal plane out a touch too much, and it pressed into the objective lens. Must have pretty hard too, because the lens fell out.

Jaeger <>
- Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 20:25:46 (ZULU)

NEWS ALERT........ effective immediately all K-Marts and Walmarts will be banned from Iraq. They will be replaced with.....Targets!!

Stan Caniglia <>
ohio, - Saturday, January 11, 2003, at 22:31:09 (ZULU)

Cat Plugger:  Lots of stuff there I didn't know.  I pasted it into a SEVEN PAGE (!) word document and will study it carefully. Thanks for the effort.

CDC' <>
- Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 01:14:35 (ZULU)


You took the words right outta my "fingers".  That's one for the hot tips,, or maybe add a title and make it an article.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 01:47:20 (ZULU)

Am I dreaming it all, or did I recall seeing a good explanation somewhere of ALICE mods that need to be done? I've checked the In Review and Cold Shots section, but don't see it now. Anyone have a link for us visually challenged?

Jaeger <>
- Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 03:00:33 (ZULU)


back in the UK yeah, you know this jet lag really sucks.  Anyone know of a good quick way to cure it?  I was in the states, and for the first week I was falling asleep at 6PM(Central), waking up at 1AM, every steenking day.  Then one day I made myself stay up til 2AM, and it broke my sleeping cycle.  I was from then up til 3am and again at 9am, complete turnaround.  Now that I'm back, I'm waking up at 2AM and literally knackered by noon, which makes absolutely no sense.  haha, no, just wondered if any of youse military fellas had a surefire way to reset your internal clocks...mines broken

Bright eyed and bushy-tailed at 0320 hrs, sheesh



JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 03:23:30 (ZULU)

A few thoughts on profiling during airport screenings

To ensure we Americans never offend anyone - - and - - particularly fanatics intent on killing us -- airport screeners will not be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal Of Honor winning former Governors...

To put this in perspective, let's pause a moment and take the following test.

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by

(a) Martha Stewart

(b) Sitting Bull

(c) Arnold Schwartzeneger

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by

(a) Lost Norwegians

(b) Elvis

(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by

(a) John Dillinger

(b) The King of Sweden

(c) The Boy Scouts

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by

(a) A pizza delivery boy

(b) Pee Wee Herman

(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old

American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by

(a) The Smurfs

(b) Sylvester Stallone

(c) The Little Mermaid

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by

(a) Captain Kid

(b) Charles Lindberg

(c) Mother Teresa

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by

(a) Scooby Doo

(b) The Tooth Fairy

(c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid.

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by

(a) Richard Simmons

(b) Grandma Moses

(c) Michael Jordan

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by

(a) Mr. Rogers

(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems

(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote "Mustapha the Merciless"

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by

(a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd

(b) The Supreme Court of Florida

(c) Tom Daschle, Ricard Gephardt, Alec Baldwin and Whoopie Goldberg

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against

(a) Enron

(b) The Lutheran Church

(c) The NFL

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by

(a) Bonnie and Clyde

(b) Captain Kangaroo

(c) Billy Graham

(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Now you see a pattern here? Nah.....



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 04:39:18 (ZULU)

MK4,   Greeat Post , I almost shit my pants reading it.

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 05:03:30 (ZULU)


       Great post! The first paragraph goes to prove that it's not only ex-wives that JUST DON"T LISTEN ;)))) On a serious note, I've always understood that if you DO happen to re-focus your reticle by adjusting the eyepiece for some reason (???) you will have to readjust parallax (from the prior setting at the same range). I got this from a former Marine S/S. Right or wrong?


      Somebody told me that jet-lag only happens in one direction! I don't believe it. My problem always was the drinking before and during the flight ;))


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 05:31:14 (ZULU)


Well, I must admit, I left the states at about 5pm, knew I had to at least make an attempt to get some sleep on the plane from Newark to London, so when the drink cart came 'round my hand was up, in fact both hands were.  I'd maybe get 5-10 minutes of sleep per hour of flight time, just enough so when you wake you have no idea where the hell you are.  I believe it is much worse flying east than west, unless you leave late; when I left I woke early Wednesday, about 5am, drove 200 miles to Sioux Falls, hopped on the plane at 11 and that's where the day started.  So, my eyes saw the sun rise Wednesday, I saw the sunset before it should have happened, and when I arrived in London it was all of a sudden thursday morning and it really didn't feel like thursday if you know what I mean.  So, couple the time change with the inability to sleep on a plane, and you wind up waking at 2am and knackered at noon, completely fubar..  I think what I'll do is try my damndest to stay awake til 9pm tonite and see what tomorrow brings.  And quite possibly drink heavily, ha.  Good to be in the land of good scotch.  Ooh ooh, I know what might work, it's time to call in the lassie reinforcements, the nitey nite brigade....

What do pilots do?  do they take sleeping pills or something?  I mean those long runs the stealth bombers take over Iraq and Afghan, it's a return trip, a long day, sunrise sunset sunrise in less than 24 hours is a real pain in the arse...or even the infantry, do they drug them to get their bodies used to the time, or do they just give them time for their bodies to get used to the change?  All I know is youse overseas businessmen gotta be some fried mothas..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 06:24:53 (ZULU)

Oh, just one more thing...

I know there are ladies that peruse this site, and there are a lot of wives/girlfriends who wonder what the hell us guys are looking at here, so I'm givin somethin back, and I leave this for "the ladies"

> >Martha Stewart's way Vs the Real Woman's way

> >

> >

> > Martha's way #1:

> > Stuff a miniature marshmallow in the bottom of a sugar cone

> > to prevent ice cream drips.

> >

> > The Real Women's Way:

> > Just suck the ice cream out of the bottom of the cone, for

> > Pete's sake, you are probably lying on the couch with your

> > feet up, eating it anyway.

> >

> > Martha's way #2:

> > To keep potatoes from budding, place an apple in the bag

> > with the potatoes.

> >

> > The Real Women's Way

> > Buy Hungry Jack mashed potato mix and keep it in the pantry

> > for up to a year.

> >

> > Martha's way #3:

> > When a cake recipe calls for flouring the baking pan, use a

> > bit of the dry cake mix instead and there won't be any white

> > mess on the outside of the cake.

> >

> > The Real Women's Way:

> > Go to the bakery. They'll even decorate it for you.

> >

> > Martha's way #4:

> > If you accidentally over-salt a dish while it's still

> > cooking, drop in a peeled potato and it will absorb the

> > excess salt for an instant "fix me up."

> >

> > The Real Women's Way:

> > If you over salt a dish while you are cooking, that's too

> > damn bad. Please recite with me, 'The Real Women's motto: I

> > made it and you will eat it and I don't care how bad it

> > tastes.

> >

> > Martha's way #5:

> > Wrap celery in aluminum foil when putting in the

> > refrigerator and it will keep for weeks.

> >

> > The Real Women's Way:

> > Celery? Never heard of the stuff.

> >

> > Martha's way #6:

> > Brush some beaten egg white over pie crust before baking to

> > yield a beautiful glossy finish.

> >

> > The Real Women's Way:

> > The Mrs. Smith frozen pie directions do not include brushing

> > egg whites over the crust so I just don't do it.

> >

> > Martha's way #7:

> > Cure for headaches: Take a lime, cut it in half and rub it

> > on your forehead. The throbbing will go away.

> >

> > The Real Women's Way:

> > Take a lime, mix it with tequila, etc., chill and drink. You

> > might still have the headache, but who cares?

> >

> > Martha's way #9:

> > If you have a problem opening jars: Try using latex

> > dishwashing gloves. They give a non-slip grip that makes

> > opening jars easy.

> >

> > The Real Women's Way:

> > Go ask the very cute neighbor to do it.

> >

> > And finally the most important tip:

> >

> > Martha's way #10:

> > Don't throw out all that leftover wine. Freeze into ice

> > cubes for future use in casseroles and sauces.

> >

> > The Real Women's Way:

> > Leftover wine??????


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 06:34:26 (ZULU)


You asked what pilots do? As a commercial pilot I can tell you that we don't have day or night but more appropriate light and dark as our schedules can be a bit eccentric. Effectively it is very subjective on how you realign your clock. If you continue to travel across borders your body will eventually tell you how to deal with a screwed up circadian rhythm. I find it best to stay awake as painful as that may be and go to bed at your local time. you also may consider a substance available at most any drug store called melatonin. It is the chemical that your body secretes naturally to induce sleep. Take it the day before at the time you want to sleep in the time zone you want to sleep. Then again before you go to sleep after you reach your destination. Typicaly this is effective for many people and does not leave you feeling dopy for the next day after waking. If that doesn't work continue to drink heavily!!! good luck.

Jim "greeceman" Shilling  

Jim Shilling <>
Memphis , Tn, USA - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 08:56:41 (ZULU)

Does staying awake all night trying to shoot a wild boar qualify as "Pig Lag". JR, cheque in post tomorrow, I forgot. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 10:05:15 (ZULU)


Check these sites out for alice mods:


Here is the muther of all site link sites:

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 13:10:10 (ZULU)

JR -  What screws you up with time zones is the difference  in the life cycles of a different time zone as a destination.  The Stealth guys, and Long duration flights that start and end in the same time zone expereince no jet lag as it were.  It'e a real bitch on those 30 + hour missions, but they end up in the same cycle time as they left.  IT's no different than staying awake that long that long at work Like during field exercises, or like Medical Doctor Residents on 24 hour shifts.  With Air line pilots, Most of these crews fly regular routes, and perhaps their schedules are compensated for so they can stay close to the cycle time where they live. I have a couple of AirForce Buddies who do this, I will try to find out.

Hogs -  Had a fun day Friday, supposed to have my back surgery but the Dr had the flue.........No joke.  At least he got sick in time for the hospital to call us and save the 90 mile Drive to Detroit.  It's on for next week.  I am really looking forward to getting it fixed, and Doc says I should be just fine for the match in June. IF for some reason I can't shoot,  I am coming anyway to help out.  Will bring AR-10's of course........Oh, just kidding so as not to scare off bolt guns......sorry.

Mk4 - that is absolutely a gut buster, about spilled wheaties all over the screen.

Take care

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 13:27:22 (ZULU)


you asked about the Steyr tactical elite?

Well, I played with one on the range last year, and I've got to say, Its the Billy Bollocks!!

Been on sale in the UK for approx 2 years at approx. 1800$, and is the only out of the box factory rifle that I've shot sub MOA with.

Cost is the only reason that I decided not to buy one. I got a PSS instead, and now have got to spend the money I saved at the 'smiths to get the PSS to shoot as good as the Steyr!

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, England, - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 14:30:17 (ZULU)

Pete L,

I was returning from Bisley yesterday and just as I came off the M25, I saw this field of 50-60 head of deer. It looked like a bleedin' convention.

Instead of thinking 'aah, just look at lovely fluffy Bambi' I was thinking 'damn, my bloody rifles are packed away in the boot of the car'

Your efforts at reducing the pig population in Germany, are obviously having a negative effect on me, and turning me into some sort of blood-thirsty murdering monster!

I shall now have to consume Jack Daniels bottled attitude adjuster until this flaw in my character is expunged.

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 14:41:12 (ZULU)


    Ah.....good to see you're back.  I was beginning to wonder if the cats had devised a rebellion and settled your hash.  I'll have to study that educational document you posted......probably have to study it a lot...much too cold to shoot anyway.  Stuck a new trigger spring in the 7mm Mag Model 70 and the trigger is about 3.7 lbs now.  Feels nice, but not as good as the Stealth's or the Sharpshooter's.  Back to lurking for the optics challenged.

Jerry S. <>
Sub zero country, MN, USA - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 14:46:11 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger, lotsa deer down your way buddy, we used to see em on Fingeringhoe ranges now and again in the early morning. Those you saw from the M25 where probably Fallow, may have been wild may have been park deer(i know there is a park some where between the M1 and the A12 on the right heading clockwise. Not unusual to have large groups of fallow in the wild, just imagine the dammage they do to crops, time you got hunting. What was the shoot at Bisley, match or just practice( you see any blond kids with sticky out ears in that area, about12 - 14 old, don't tell em you know where i am !!) I'm going to have to come across and have a play on the ranges with you, what do you rekon about this Euro Hawgs match me n Jon are on about? Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 15:50:01 (ZULU)

'Lito-outstanding piece on parallax.  With all due respect, you left out one vital item: GLASSES WEARERS MUST CLEAN THEIR GLASSES BEFORE TRYING TO ADJUST THE SCOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should go without saying, but I caught myself guilty last year.

Joe M.- .223 loads.  I've found 69 gr SMK, 25.5 gr WW-748, Remington 7 1/2 primer has done 3/4" @ 200 meters for me with occasional cloverleafs.  The Sierra 60 gr HP, 21.5 gr IMR 4198, WW SR primers were doing better but you'd best work up to that one.  LOAL on both was out of the Sierra manual.

Don't take the wife's attitude too seriously.  She's just comtemplating shoveling manure herself for an extended period


For guys with horse loving women-

1.  Horsewomen know a man is only good for one thing-backing up the horse trailer.

2.  When your horselady calls out "Honey, I've got something to show you..."  It ISN'T something from Fredericks, Vickie's Secret etc.  It's either a new halter, saddle blanket or pile of manure you missed while cleaning the barn.

3.  Ever notice she'll kiss a horse (Lord knows where that furry face has been!), but you need a bath, shave, teeth cleaning and lose 20+ lbs!

WR Moore <>
- Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 16:33:14 (ZULU)


any blond kids with sticky-out ears I know are playing the banjo!

Just practice yesterday, finally got me PSS grouping better than me mini-14 by using reloads.

I'm certainly up for a Euro Hawg match, gotta show the jerries, frogs, eyeties, taffs and sweatys how to do it!! (ha bloody ha)

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 16:43:08 (ZULU)

Lito.......I See.......

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 17:01:04 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger,

Thanks, I was curious if they are available here in the US yet.  But you say it shot well huh.  I have a Steyr PllK and it shoots great, but I saw a posting on for a Steyr Tactical Elite and was shocked because the last I heard they were not being imported into this country.  Who knows, but I definitely want to find out.  Talk at ya later.  

Brandon <>
chilly, CO, - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 18:31:41 (ZULU)


you got mail about Steyr tactical elites. No attachments...

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 19:21:37 (ZULU)


you have mail; no attachments.


Jon Beardsley <>
- Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 19:41:57 (ZULU)

Hey fellas,

Just got back from Florida. Doin' some Waterborne Ops training for a bunch of cops. Had a blast.

Sunny Florida and wet suits notwithstanding, that water was c o l d !  brrrrrr  My MS was acting up. (MS = Major Shrinkage !)

I think Inside Edition covered the thing.

Guys learned a lot.

Had fun but was glad to get home.

Later bros,

B.K. Sain

brian k. sain <>
- Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 21:41:38 (ZULU)

J.R my limited experience in the infantry, when away from home,I was tired enough that when not walkin,shootin,sometimes bein yelled at,I could sleep, screw the time zone,day/night.

Spent yesterday fighting bushfires,the bastard beat us and jumped a road,it looks like stating on gubmint land in the short term.hope the night crew lads had some success.

Thanks Lito,wifey showed me how to select a peice from the dr and print it,now I gotta go through the archive dungeon again.Cool down there anyway.

We could use some prayers for rain to.Worst drought in 100 years.



Gavan Willis <>
- Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 23:25:34 (ZULU)


 Your 11 Jan. on parallax is a great commercial for United States Optics Technologies (  There catalog, $10.00 I think, has great explanations for parallax and other useful optical phenomena.  While I am trying to sound like I know something about shooting I would like to recommend a book that will answer most ballistics questions like twist rates, primer holes, spin, deflection, etc.. I am not as experienced a shooter as most of the good folks on the Roster but I have found answers for questions I didn't even know existed in this book:  UNDERSTANDING FIREARM BALLISTICS by Robert A Rinker.  Available from Mulberry House Publishing @ (888) 738-1567.  It costs $25.00.  

    Where did you get your optics knowledge?


Jerry Lee Edwards (pandora) <>
Chuluota, Florida, USA - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 23:31:55 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

         Add to backing the trailer - replacing the brake shoes, fixing the lights, repacking the wheel bearings, and putting new tires on the damn thing!


   Leftover whine? There's always leftover whine around my place. As in "rememeber when you said (or did) whatever five years ago"?

   Speaking of that - here's a couple for ya:

Q) What's an American housewifes' favorite wine in December?

A) " I want to go to Florida (or Aspen)".

Q) How can you tell if she's had an orgasm?

A) If she drops her nail file during the act.

I'm gonna get killed,


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 23:33:14 (ZULU)

"Your 11 Jan. on parallax is a great commercial for United States Optics Technologies ( did you get your optics knowledge?"

   Hehehehehehehehehehehehe......that oughta stir the pot ;))



Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 23:38:05 (ZULU)

Jerry Lee Edwards...

>"Catshooter, Your 11 Jan. on parallax is a great commercial for United States Optics Technologies"<

Some people post here to add to the pool of knowledge... but most others post to see their name on the monitor.

It's stupid remarks like yours, that is the reason I don't hardly post here anymore.

Go play Golf!!



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 00:25:58 (ZULU)

In Invitation to Think 'Way Out of the Box

To LEO snipers:

When you are in an environment that filled with explosive or flammable fumes, have you ever tried using a longbow or a crossbow?  Would not a wooden bolt (perhaps with a little bit of lead or--dare I say this?--depleted uranium, buried in the head) shot by a crossbow, take out the target without danger of igniting the flammable atmosphere?  It seems that modern crossbows, with suitable sights, could serve within the usual LEO sniper range (100 yards).

I have tried to search for references to modern uses of crossbows, but did not find any.  Hence the question.  Do we need to consult the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) for advice?

Any help, experience, or war story is welcome.



Spectre <>
U.S.A. - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 00:42:41 (ZULU)


Regarding your post about shooting in a flammable gas filled environment.  I am not a LEO sniper, but I do know something about flammable environments.  

First, why shoot in that environment?  Why not back off, and shoot from a safe environment?  Remember adapt, inprovise, overcome.

Second, a bullet traveling through a flammable environment will not cause a flash fire, unless you are shooting something like API or tracer.  Something that is supposed to start a fire.  

Flammable gas clouds are kind of funny.  There are parts of the cloud where the gas/air mixture is exactly right and an explosion will occur with only a small addition of energy, like a bullet bouncing off a chunk of steel.  Other parts of the same cloud the mix ain't right, and you could strike a match and nothing would happen (don't try this at home).  

Finally the legal ramifications.  Can you imagine a city attorney sitting at his desk, with his head in his hands, saying, "What were they thinking."

Just my $00.02 worth.

John <>
Liberty, TX, - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 01:29:10 (ZULU)

Imagine a network hairdo teasing this during late prime-time:  "During protest march, community leaders and civil rights activists denounce police officials who authorized use of razor sharp arrow shot from mideval weapon to kill youth.  Johnnie Cochran agrees to represent victim's family.  Full report and film at 11:00."

Ain't gonna happen.

CDC' <>
- Monday, January 13, 2003, at 01:50:38 (ZULU)

Good gouge 'Lito.  That got saved as a Microsuck Word document for the platoon, although most won't understand what it says other than it was about scopes.  Hell, I'm going to read it a few more times before I ask questions.  

Gents, the consensus for the April get together was to postpone.  Any of you got other ideas, let me know soonest.  I'm going to get to work on something for late August-September for the moment and I'd really like to make the Badlands SC shoot.  The near term for me is focused on business over pleasure, so I might be hard to get ahold of.  Never fear, I will do everything I can to make this thing work, but I may not be able to talk about it for a while.  Semper Fidelis.....Ken M

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 02:48:01 (ZULU)


have you had time to send any .284 pills down that fire forming beast yet?

I see Norma is making 300WSM brass now.  It may be time to run a couple through a 7WSM die and drop a 156 or 178 Cartcucio in it,, and send her off to Clymer....


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 02:57:01 (ZULU)


Remember that release agent I was on about a couple months ago?  Well, I forgot all about it, but dad had the box of the stuff which price-driscoll sent him as a free sample.  You want me to have him send it your way?  I can't ship it or even pack it in my luggage to bring here, it's an aerosol, so if you can use it just say the word...  Doesn't stink or nuthin, supposed to be safe, looks like some good stuff..

Wide Awake

JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 02:57:29 (ZULU)

Allegheny Sniper Challenge # 2

  It's open season for registration.  We have heard from everyone from last year plus more.  All but one(wife having their first child the week before) of last years shooters will be there again this year.  There are still slots available- May 17/18.  Two challending days of shooting with the Hogs! Lot's of surprises.  Anyone for sniper golf?


rod hansen <>
- Monday, January 13, 2003, at 03:52:45 (ZULU)


You have mail - N/A

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 04:03:44 (ZULU)


So I know Jack Sheeeeit about 'puters.  How do I save 'Lito's Parallax etc. post without having to do all sorts a editing etc?  There's gotta be an easy way I'm just not edjumacated on right?



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 04:04:58 (ZULU)

Does anyone know where I could purchase:

1) the SIMRAD night vision device?  and/or

2) a *LONG*-range laser range finder (+ 1500 yards...)




Paul <>
- Monday, January 13, 2003, at 04:41:27 (ZULU)

Rich S.

email headed your way w/o attachment.

jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 06:01:56 (ZULU)

Rod H.

You have mail. N/A. Match entry request.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 10:39:24 (ZULU)

Joke time.

There is this SAS trooper in Afganistan. He is part of a training team, instructing a raggedy bunch of Afgani's in small unit tactics and variouse other arts of the Military trade. He is befriended by one of the Afgans,( Abdul) who happens to speak  practicaly no English at all, but they manage to communicate with hands and feet. The trooper figures it would be a great idea if he was to teach Abdul some English during breaks and after the training day. Hence he has Abdul repeat words in English after he has pointed out certain objects.




Abdul ..."Taynk."

Tpr.. " Rifle.".

Adbul.. "Ryfle,"

Tpr.. "Boots..".

Abdul.. "Buts."

and so this carries on for a few weeks, gradualy Abdul is getting a vacabulary of English words together and it is making training somewhat easier. The Afgani's tend to be a little trigger happy, but providing you make sure you are 20 feet behind the firing point when the militia let loos, then mostly its safe enough.One day on the ranges, the boys realy get rockin and rolling, so by mid day they have used up all the ammo.During lunch break, our Trooper and Abdul set off towards the village to pick up some more ammo. As they walk along the track the trooper begins again with the vocabulary lessons,pointing out certain objects as they go along.

Tpr... "Track."


Tpr..."Oil drum."

Abdul...".Oyl Dram"

Tpr... "Tree."


they round a bend in the track and the trooper points to some bushes,

Tpr.. "Bushes."

Abdul... "Booshiz.. ah same same President Boosh? "  he answers ,

"yeah sort of" says our Trooper.

Just then they spot a couple on the ground behind the bush having sex. The Trooper is unsure what to say, he knows Abdul is a devout Muslim and the woman is totaly naked.

Embarassed the trooper says "Riding a bicycle ! ".

at that, Abdul raises his M1 carbine and shoots the shit out of the bloke.

Tpr.. "What the F... ,Oh My God, Abdul what the hell?"

Abdul "  Abdul's bicycle"  

well it gave me a chuckle anyway.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 10:49:07 (ZULU)

Sorry Mr. Lito.

I re-read my post after your reply and can see how you might take it as an insult.  It was NOT intended that way! Your post was great and to the best of my knowledge very accurate. The bit about the catalog and the book were put in because I have noticed that there are a lot of questions posted on the Roster that they would answer and also provide an at home reference for others like me that are novice precision shooters.  Again please accept my apology.  Also I very much would like to know if your source of information is in print form as I would like to get a copy.  I will be more careful in the future, If I still have a future on the Roster.  I also re-read the Roster instructions and won't post anymore except to ask questions.  Again sorry.  


Jerry Lee Edwards (pandora) <>
Chuluota, Florida, USA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 11:09:49 (ZULU)


OK I bedded my 700VS before Christmas but my best groups are still 1.5” to  2” @100yds. Pretty much the same as before bedding. In a five shot group I get three touching or thereabouts and two fliers out to the right usually between 2 and 4 ‘clock. Yes I know it could just be my crap shooting but I don’t think so. (I can shoot sub inch with my .223 )The fliers happen in no particular order so it’s not a cold bore or heat thing. The crown looks good but there seems to be a raised rough spot in one of the rifling grooves about an inch and a quarter from the muzzle. Is this the most probable cause and if so what is the best way to polish it out without knackering the rifling? ( I’d like to try that before chopping 2” off the barrel and recrowning.) Also if I were to recrown it myself what is the best way (ie product) to treat/reblue /seal the bare metal to prevent rust. It’s a Rem factory barrel in case you hadn’t guessed. Strange thing is it still managed to make centre hits on figure 11 targets at 1000 yards. Is it possible this is just a short range thing, like some yaw effect or something? (ok unlikely, but I’m clutching at straws here.) Ammo is 175SMK’s over 44.5grains Varget in Win cases and CCI primers.


Shame Undude wasn’t around to read Jerry Lee E’s post. He’d have wet his pants. ;-)


Can’t see a L.E. application for crossbows. I’m sure some of the SF/spook types have investigated crossbows. Not your big T shaped ones either..... Not much advantage over today’s silenced weapons, apart from heat signature.

Mark D

Mark D <>
London, England - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 11:27:36 (ZULU)


Lapua Sniper Competition

Lapua Sniper Competition takes place at Lapua on 19th - 20th July, 2003.

Questions and registrations to Janne Pohjoispää, tel. +358-6-4310 232 or


TorF <>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 11:43:41 (ZULU)

Mark D.

You have mail. N/A.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 12:05:04 (ZULU)

Mark D. get that barrel shortened, you won't regret it, 20"is all you need (here we go again). Try Brownells for the crowning tool, best done in a lathe, but i haven't seen any detrimental effects from using the tool on the occasions where i have done so.of course the very best thing to do would be to have a new barrel installed and the reciever sorted out.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 13:29:15 (ZULU)

I'm one of those new shooters at ASC#2 this year and I'm really looking forward to meeting some of the others that I haven't met yet. Gonna be a good weekend.

Rob01 <>
- Monday, January 13, 2003, at 13:35:45 (ZULU) have a clean incoming email....


JRMoore <>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 14:15:33 (ZULU)


 Welcome back!! and a great post, you still never cease to amaze me with your depth of knowledge, your still my idol!!


 I know the feeling, after I came home from Nam I would come to the dinner table with a hard on and go to bed hungry. Your system will adjust itself. Hope you had a great visit!!


  Glad to hear the wife is doing better and things are going well for you, you deserve a break.

Pat < >
- Monday, January 13, 2003, at 14:24:41 (ZULU)

* I need to pick the collective brain here a minute *

My advance apology for a long, non shooting post.

OK, here's the problem.  I'm an 11 year active duty USAF veteran (including Desert Storm).  I got out about 10 years ago. Now, I want very much to get back in with the Air Nat'l Guard.  The recruiters I've talked to say that because I USED to have migraine head aches, that I'm permanently barred from service. That's just unacceptable to me.  I need to know if any of you have any ideas on how I might get my minor condition waivered.  Hell, I've been around the military enough to know that they can waiver just about anything they want to.

Guys, this is really pissing me off.  When Desert Storm came up, nobody said "Well Sarge, you can't go because of your history of the occasional migraine." Indeed, our squadron commander just told us to say our goodby's and get our gear and be on the ramp in 3 hours 'cause we were leaving ! Now, I just want to get back in uniform and do whatever I can do for the country.  I'm not here or just wanting benefits..hell, this would cost me a good deal of money. Like I tell the recruiters, I'm already trained. My family and I already know what going to war means. Heck, I think my uniforms will still fit. I just need a waiver or an honest med-eval.  If, upon a medical exam, they told me that I wasn't "good to go", well then I'll just shut up and stay home.  But I AM good to go.  Right now, it looks to me like we need some folks to stand up and do their duty. Well, here I am. Ready to go.

Sorry again for the long post, but I'm at a loss for what to do next. I thought I might as well go unconventional and ask around the mighty brain trust in here for ideas !

If any of y'all know anything I might try, please hit my e-mail, as I don't get to read up on the roster as much as I'd like.  Thanx for reading this and thanx in adv. for any assistance !


p.s If there happened to be any additional info you might need from me, lemme know, I can sure get it. Oh yea...almost forgot..honorable service, honorably discharged :)

Aaron <>
Blytheville, Ar., U.S. of (Smile when you say it) A. - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 16:55:15 (ZULU)


 Managed to shoot just a little this weekend.  Geoff came up, and in between honey-do's, I got a little trigger time too.

First, there was a 45 degree diff in temp from original zero to Saturday's shoot.  2MOA drop in zero resulted.  55 degrees for zero, 10, with a brisk wind, on saturday.  Sub zero wind chill also has detrimental effects on basic markmanship...Geoff did good-but I was ugly.

Second, my range channels wind; across the highground it will blow in the prevailing direction, in the valley you'll get swirls, sometimes as much as 90 degrees off prevailing wind, and in unusual southerly conditions, there are low level sheers.  Guess what we dealt with...

Last, I pulled my mount off the M21 and since Geoff was coming, put it back on.  The instructions have a step, after final torque of the side camming screw, to loosen the clip guide screw and re-torque.  This step is a horrible idea, as once you do, any torsion from the side screw will throw the mount sideways.  Naturally, my reciever isn't exactly true, so this happened.  Whatta pain in da butt.  I had a smith install it first time--but I had to take it off out of foolish curiosity (checking for corrosion--none...). We figured out that the second adjustment to the clip guide was allowing the mount to pull left of center--so the fix was to skip that silly step and use a plum line off the sights to force the thing into alignment.  A recipe for loosening.  Thank god for locktite.

And finally, once the conditions were adjusted, the M21 was mechanically zeroed, and the winds aligned to the range--I had to go inside and set up the Pony Party for Make a Wish.  Geoff reluctantly remained on the firing line, continuing to pour precision fire downrange, though he "be the lone survivor."  Ha. As I whipped up deviled eggs, I heard the bark of 7.62 echoing through my hills.  Talk about hating life...

Nicole's Pony Party was a huge hit.  Make a wish brought the POA (Trixie forever more), a month's worth of hay, a saddle (tiny), halters and bridles, Roper Boots, western wear, and a party kit from hell as well as local press.  Impressive organization.  I had to hide the weaponry though--can't be scaring them off on Nicole's big day!

Joe M.


Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, January 13, 2003, at 16:56:33 (ZULU)


Welcome back!! and a great post, you still never cease to amaze me with your depth of knowledge, your still my idol!!<<<<<<<

Careful there. You know Lito suffers enough from a swelled head as it is. Just keep him in Cheese N Mac and he's good to go. Now throw him some decent cajun cuisine and a couple of cases of good ale and he'll explain to you the thermodynamics of the sun, nuclear physiology, and why the pointy end of a bullet could ruin your whole day. Hell, he even knows how to spell chile.

Just kidding Catshooter. You just keep posting and forget about the rest. That post on parallax went straight to my hard drive. Good stuff....damn good stuff...and good to see you back.



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 17:23:56 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info., 'Lito.  Been having a little problem w/ parallax from 2-500 and I think you fixed it.

Mister Gooch;  Glad to hear the wife is on the mend.  Not many things worse than watching a wife or child hurt.  

You that know;  Katy did well w/ her last surgery.  More tests pending on the B/P thing.

Thoughts and prayers are accomplished for all "our" loved ones that need 'em.


dennis <>
merced, KA, u - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 17:45:40 (ZULU)

Hi guys,

Does anyone know where I can get a big(poster sized) print of the famous picture of LCpl. Dalton Gunderson?  That picture with him shown sitting with a Model 70 over his knee.  I'm sure you've all seen the picture.  Thanks.

Semper Fi


Steve <>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 18:04:15 (ZULU)




                dissertation duley noted!!!!


           aye we missed ya!!!!!


macgregor <>
an AMERICANadian up here in CANADIA, - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 19:52:43 (ZULU)




                dissertation duley noted!!!!


           aye we missed ya!!!!!


macgregor <>
an AMERICANadian up here in CANADIA, - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 19:53:14 (ZULU)

   2004 Election Issue

   This must be an issue in "04".  Please! Keep it going.


   (This is worth the read.)

   Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years. Our Senators and Congress men & women do not pay into Social Security and, of course, they do not collect from it.

   You see, Social Security benefits were not suitable for persons of

their rare elevation in society.  They felt they should have a special plan for themselves. So, many years ago they voted in their own benefit plan.

   In more recent years, no congressperson has felt the need to change it. After all, it is a great plan.

   For all practical purposes their plan works like this: When they

retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die, except it may increase from time to time for cost of living adjustments. For example, former Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives may expect to draw $7,800,000.00 (that's Seven Million, Eight-Hundred Thousand Dollars), with their wives drawing $275,000.00 during the last years of their lives.

This is calculated on an average life span for each.

   Their cost for this excellent plan is $00.00. Nada. Zilch. This little perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the tab for this plan. The funds for this fine retirement plan come directly from the General Funds-our tax dollars at work!

   From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I pay (or have paid) into-every payday until we retire (which amount is matched by our employer) --we can expect to get an average $1,000 per month after retirement. Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of $1,000. monthly benefits for 68 years and one (1) month to equal Senator Bill Bradley's benefits!

   Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made. That change would be to jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from under the Senators and Congressmen. Put them into the Social Security plan with the rest of us ... then sit back and watch how fast they would fix it.

   If enough people receive this, maybe a seed of awareness will be

planted and maybe good changes will evolve.

Joe Heston <>
SA, TX, US ofA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 20:31:59 (ZULU)

This is another urbanlegend email that someone started.  Don't believe everything you read.

"Think twice, before forwarding the above email message to others. It offers no evidence whatsoever to back up its claims, nor any realistic plan of action. Thinking people will rightly regard it as junk."

jared hunter <>
San Antonio, Tx, USA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 21:25:54 (ZULU)


  You have mail. No attachments.


  Anyone here have any experience with the Winchester X2 shotgun?

         LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 22:51:50 (ZULU)

Commandant of the Marine Corps change of command today at the US Naval Academy.  First time that the Brigade of Midshipman were entirely present for change of command.  Maybe the Academy will get a few more USMC instructors.


2033 News release

Congress announced that a decision had been made about whether to send US Marine to Iraq or Korea in ref. to the thirty year debate about those two Dictatorships, when Pres. Chelsey Clinton volunteers to flip a coin.  Pres. Clinton also asked for a doubling of the US defense budget so that a Marine could be sent "one each" to Iraq and Korea.

Commandant Of the Marine Corps announcing his retirement states "I'm sick and tired of worrying whether I'm going to Iraq or Korea, I'm out of here".


Terry Hoover <>
Kansas City , Kansas, - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 22:53:34 (ZULU)

Social Security...

If this don't make you puke your lunch, then you're a pinko, liberal son-of-a-bitch!


Jerry Lee Edwards...

You add insult to injury and call me "Mister"!  Mang, you're lucky you don't live up this way, or I'd whack you on your little wet nose with a rolled up newspaper...twice!

First... it's obvious you are a sucker at the USO trough, cuz only the greenie kids talk like that about that company.  If you had any real idea about what goes on with USO, and how many unhappy customers there are, you would be doubly embarrased.

Well, stop saving your allowence and soda can money, and get a functioning scope from someone else.  At a sniper match last year, the guys that owned USO scopes that were UNHAPPY, outnumbered the happy ones by about 3:1... and even a USO dealer at the match admitted that service was "terrible" and many scopes came out of the shop that were build to the wrong specs... about half of the orders are built wrong... most of the mildot scopes AREN'T mildots, the mil measurments can be allover the place, and when you complain that they aren't accurate, Ol' john says he doesn't like mildots anyway... and then it's YOUR fault, becasue you didn't order it right (even when you did!!)

The father (John) says "don't talk to my son, talk to me"... the son says "Don't talk to my father, talk to me"... they use their consultants until they have been bled dry, then dump them like a hot rock, and then "Charge" them for the items that they were sent for evaluation (and, NO, I was never a consultant for them, but I HAVE been a consultant to Leupold for their military line).

... and if you are under 18, I forgive you for your stupid remarks.  The same as I would for my son... but then you would be too young to be on this site... if you are over 18, you should know better, so your nose is an open target of opportunity for a rolled up New York Times (the only thing that paper is good for).

Where did I get my optical knowledge?  I was a director of research at Columbia University for three years, and their High Energy Suite for one year... also add Nikon instrument division, and Carl Zeiss... I didn't get my 7 pages from a book... I wrote it for the FatDude.  He's the one that asked me (three times) to post it here.



Don't worry.  I pay Pat (HA!) 50 cents every time he says somfin' nice about me.  It's the only way I can get compliments.


Just passin' through, lookin' for dem kitties.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 23:11:53 (ZULU)


If I have a "Stray Kitten UKD" event,, you gonna come on down for the match ;))

Thanks for posting it,, I've read it about 8 times,, and it's become part of my archive,, along with Rick's explination on how to Favor and Hold, wind reads and Gooch's numerous contributions.


You had any time to wring out that 260 lately?  Has Jr sent your FagMag home with the new tube?  (I didn't think so ;)))

Fellas,, seems I need a big ass fat 'ol whack with the newspaper,, and George should be doing it.  The throat on the FagMag was NOT burned out .06",, I fukt up my measurement because I wasn't using the correct tool to measure, and I accept my swat.  So, with a new crown on her and some other small tweeks, I'll be back to whippin' some 308 ass in about two weeks,, when the NXS comes back from Nightforce.  

Oh,, and anyone wanting to know about fast turn around and outstanding customer service.  I shipped my rifle back to George last Wednesday, and shipped my scope to Lightforce USA Thursday.  The rifle is on it's way home,, and the scope hasn't made it to ID yet....  I'm not trying to imply that's the average turn around,, but I've got a shat eatin' grin from ear to ear (;


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Monday, January 13, 2003, at 23:40:10 (ZULU)

MK 4

....he'll explain to you the thermodynamics of the sun....

reminds me of an old joke: can't resist.

"The Thermodynamics of Hell"

The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the Professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law, (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing over time. So we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave.

Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell.

Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the postulation given to me by Karen during my Freshman year, "...that it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you.", and taking into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having relations with her, then, #2 cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze.

The student received the only "A" given.

Have a good day gents.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
K town, WI, US of A - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 00:05:00 (ZULU)


New virus (36 hrs. since discovered)......W32/Sobig@MM.......comes w/attachment from "" (supposedly.)

McAfee caught it. The damn thing had THREE files that were infected!!!

For complete info, go to :

IMHO, the FBI, NSA, and all other relevant alphabet agencies should be devoting maximum effort into tracking these dickless wonders down. We've done it before, caught the weenie who did the Melissa virus, caught the Filipino a couple years back......


The courts should sentence the responsible party to life without parole....preferably in a cell with a 300 pound buggerer named "Bubba", although the virus-generator might take that as the equivalent of a Club Med vacation.

These virus attacks are not simple pranks. They are a threat to our national security. They should be investigated and prosecuted as such.

Keep your virus definitions updated daily, guys.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 00:33:58 (ZULU)

I have gotten the email from Big Boss A**H**E. two days in a row. Norton caught it both times.

Kimbershooter <>
Disputanta, Va., USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 01:04:06 (ZULU)


Just got back from a cross country flight to the lovely Charleston S.C. area and am beat. But, anyone know where I can get name tapes for MARPAT utilities? Picked up a set from a buddy in New River but need friggin name tapes.


Yeah, you speak the "M" word and the docs get all weird. I know that a history of migraines (i.e. in your med jacket) will probably bar you from a flight status, as far as regular duties, all I can say is check with the flight surgeon/Mil hospital, or try the MEPS station in your area and pick the brains of the medical screeners that they have there and see if migraines are waiverable for duty.

And a couple of weeks back, someone (I think Don Smith) gave me a load for my LC .308 brass. Well, got some of it loaded up and it is a rock solid load. Thanks

Keep the greasy side down

Kush out

Kush <>
P-cola, Fl, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 01:13:02 (ZULU)

Ha!  Joe is being gracious, as he was the whole visit.  He has a great place to shoot...when you have to hop in the 4X4 to go put out targets, it's a beautiful thing!  Wind is very shifty, and yes, it was damn cold!  I WILL be bringing 175's next time!  I enjoyed spotting as much as shooting.  Guys, for the record, little Nicole is amazing, as is the whole family.  Glad to hear the MAW visit went so well Joe!  I hated to leave but my own chores needed to get done before work too...hope you got lots of pics!

'Lito, you are the chile peppers in this pot of soup mang!  ;-)


Geoff M <>
USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 01:28:13 (ZULU)

This "" a**hole has hit me twice now.  Grrrr.

Geoff M <>
USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 01:31:37 (ZULU)


You have mail w/ no attachments.

Hawgs, Masters, Patrons, Nobility, Rosterfarians, Council and Lurkers.

If I'm not mistakes,, Mr. Suttles went under the knife today.  Maybe a little prayer for a speedy and complete recovery would help.  Just a thought.  

And possibly one for Gooch,Undude, and all the others out there who watch over us, where ever they many be.....


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 02:34:49 (ZULU)

Joe, I sent you an update on that boy. One has attachment.

Ok, Im stupmed. I went to the range a few days ago. Weather was 20 degrees colder and the humidity was down from 80% to 40%. WHY where the bullet strikes one MOA HIGHER?????

Liot, Thats not they way adjust my scope I close both eyes and dont touch nothing. Damn now I can not claim ignorance, although some of you would debate that point. You disertation caused my printer to go tits up. I will print it from my wife PC and then take the steps to adjust things properly. Good peice of work that should be stuck in the "How To" section of the site...

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 03:11:34 (ZULU)

Update on Steve Suttles :

Bobby Whittington saw Steve today, and apparently the surgery turned out really well, about the best case scenario.

As Chris said, now it's time for prayers and thoughts for speedy and complete recovery.

I sent a small card; I know many of you (here and other boards) sent cards and things as well.  I'm sure he appreciates the thoughts from his fellow shooters.  Thanks.

John L

John Leveron <>
Mid-MO, U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 04:28:57 (ZULU)

Bolt, thanks for the references, got those going.

Guys, sent out a group offline thread by email. If you get one from me, and the subject looks real, it's legit. I've got a condom on my computer, so no viruses possible.

My prayers and best wishes to those who need. Even when I'm too busy to post, which is the norm, I do keep up with what's going on.

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 04:37:20 (ZULU)


I have a GA Prec rifle with 400 rounds through a schneider bbl. Considering moly coating. I have heard the pros would like to know the cons..opinions?


Jim "greeceman" Shilling

greeceman <>
cordova, tn, usa - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 05:47:42 (ZULU)

AR-7 rifle ?

Bought one for my sons' 9th birthday this year. He's moved up to semi-auto! We put some beverage cans about 50 or 60 feet away and he proceeded to hit both with amazing regularity. After 2 magazines I decided to try; for a $150.00 floating plastic rifle, I was amazed. I introduced him to the double tap on the next mag and damn, 2 first round hits. The boy is a natural. Can you see my pride showing?


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 10:48:59 (ZULU)

I got an Email from that same jerk Saturday Norton caught it

Gary Kaney <>
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 11:59:16 (ZULU)


We're gonna have to send jc over to give ya a good slap!!

Don't listen to Highpower across the course guys when it comes to a rifle that you need to count on a CBS hitting.  That's why all them Moly guys used fouled barrels when they shoot legs. (so do most non Moly guys ;))

I'd get more into it, but I've gotta split for work.  More to follow, but I fear you may have woken a sleeping giant.

Have you checked the Hot Tip and Cold Shots section yet?


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 12:30:01 (ZULU)

John, I know the feeling.  It's great! Enjoy your boy he'll be a man before you can blink.

FWIW, While on business in Florida last week I logged three hours in a 172 and took 16 hours of ground school/FAA test prep.  I feel a new hobby coming on.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 12:32:52 (ZULU)


And you thought shooting was expensive? Congratulations. In every discipline or sport, the more intelligent and conscientious participants we attract, the better the sport. You'll be a fine addition to the flying community. Go get your student medical before you spend much more money though. I fear your incident in China may require some intensive pape work on the part of you and your physician. Hopefully, it will all work out well. Call me about the road trip sometime.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 13:00:28 (ZULU)

Catshooter, Sir (OK?)

    My (big) nose is stinging!  (Question) I hope that this means that you have accepted my apology?  I guess that I am a sucker 'cause

I have a ST-10x44.  I would be pleased if I could send it to you for your evaluation, IF you promise not to use it as a proctoscope.  (Last question)  This is NOT meant as sarcasm! Please consider writing a book or pamphlet on scopes and scope evaluation.  You could make it available through the SCPX.  I would be the first to buy it and request that it be an author autographed copy.  Gotta' go get a kleenex, my nose is startin' to bleed.


Jerry Lee Edwards (pandora) <>
Chuluota, Florida, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 13:56:37 (ZULU)


  Funny you should mention that!! I was out last night and shot at 700yds again. I got some more 142s and 140MKs. The 140MKs can be seated out to the rifling and still fit the magazine. The 142s won't even come close.

  I checked the zeros of both at 100yds, with the 140 and 142s just off the lands. The 142s ripped a small hole and the 140s were around a .5.

  I had a 5 to 7 full value wind so I dialed accordingly and shot a group of 140MKs. I had a vertical spread of 3.7" and a horz. spread of around 7" with 4 in about 4.5". Then I shot the 142s and they were just exactly the opposit of the 140MKs!! If you would have taken the 140s group and stood it on end that was how it measured out. One shoots vertical and the other horzontal!!

 I have other problems too (If you can believe that) I think my scope is taking a crap!! I dialed it to 700yds last night and my groups shot 12" low. It did this the last time I shot too but thought is was the 140s hitting different. Well it wasn't, the 142s shot in the same place. I thought it may be because of the heavy cold air(17 degrees)but as I was leaving I decided to shoot 5 at 400yds so I dialed it to 400 and shot a group. I was nearly 20" low!! It was as if I hadn't even dialed the scope.

 I made up a 4 foot scale in 1" lines to check it out tonight and see if I have some wore out gears in the scope. Its my first 3.5x10LR and its on the 4th barrel with two different rifles. Thats a lot of dialing so maybe it is wore out. I will find out tonight and let you know.

 So as you can see, I am still frustrated and haven't figured out which bullet to shoot yet. Other than that things have been quiet.


 If you read my post to Chris on the scope what do you think??? Can the gears wear out in them or can something come loose?? Thanks!!  

Pat <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 14:19:45 (ZULU)


 The FAA paper work for my medical is huge.  But like eating an elephant I'll take it one bite at a time.  AOPA is a big help and they are guiding me through it all.  Without the medical certificate I won't go far.  Wish me luck.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 14:25:47 (ZULU)

Jerry Lee Edwards...

A "Sir" gets you a third whack on the nose!

Books are time consuming to write, expensive to publish, and this bunch is the cheapest on the internet.  Making money by selling on the PX is a lose-lose proposition :((


Pat (HA!)...

I can't find the thing on the scope... e-mail me about it.



CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 15:07:33 (ZULU)


    On the SuperX2.....they seem to have a good rep. Go to in the talk section to find discussion on the X2 and Browning Gold which is about the same action with a few small differences.  The site was temporarily down, but it might be up by the time you read this.


    I almost bought an X2 before I found a Browning A5 Stalker.  The old A5 design is about the most reliable shotgun I've used over the years.  It just fits and points so naturally.  Yeah, I love those classics....I wonder if that means I'm just getting old.  I need another one to set up for slugs and buck.    

Jerry S. <>
Sub zero, frozen rabbit country, MN, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 16:27:22 (ZULU)

Kevin if you think shooting gets expensive wait until you take up flying.   I got my private in 79 and my multi commercial and instrument back in 81. (Thank god for the VA paying 90% of the commercial/instrument back then).  Last I remember a 172 retractible was going for about $55 an hour dry.  A baron 6 seater was about $225 an hour.   Plus instructors fees.   Once your hooked it isn't hard to run a $1000 a month tab.

Good luck.  It's a wonderful past time.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 16:54:37 (ZULU)

HOGs, should be on my first phaze of my trip home around 2130 PST or 1000 hours Afghanistan time.  Been a hard trip and I am coming home early because I messed my knee up. Probably going to have knee surgery when I get back.  All the way to Afghanistan to be on crutches. Man Afghan crutches are just a split stick with a piece of wood between them for a handle. Had to use a bunch of paracord to stregthen them. Boys very different without US MIlitary support doing this. Logistics have been a nightmare. Communications are every few days.

Catman, great explanation of parallex. Hope you are doing well, My main rifle has a Premiere Generation Two scope on it from Leupold, so dont expect any arguements.

Hope Steve is doing better. I will pray for him.

Shoud be back in Cont US on Friday and man I am going to kiss the ground when I return.

Peter, been staying with some Britts.  Took great care of me when I got hurt. I think just so they could give me crap over being a Yank.  All I have to say about that is I wont forget the kindness shown and God save the Queen!


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 17:27:25 (ZULU)


I am a commercial airline pilot. We have some med. consultants through our union that specialize in getting ones medical back. If you want any extra push I will get the name and number, they will charge you I am sure. I have as yet to use them but it may be worth it to you.


I wear a anti-nose slap face mask every time I sign now. Thanks for the info on Moly, it will keep me clear of it.

Thanks again to you also 'Lito



Jim "Greeceman" Shilling <>
cordova, Tn, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 17:34:34 (ZULU)

Hawgs...your big boss virus generator--- or the current one is coming from:

Jan 14 17:29:12 spanky sendmail[15054]: h0EHT6m15054: from=<>, size=89266, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, []

..... roadrunner cable in houston texas... I guarantee... that if you call them up and give them ...hmmm say that cs2416733 number... they'd probably act on it....


Ken Hunter <>
nokesville, va, USofA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 17:37:35 (ZULU)

So - I guess 'big boss' is shooting from several places...

Jan 14 17:53:31 spanky sendmail[15338]: h0EHrUm15338: from=<>, size=89269, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=[]

take a look at the relay= line....

that ip address comes from:

OrgName:    Allegiance Telecom Companies Worldwide

OrgID:      ATCW

NetRange: -


NetName:    ALGX-KVX-BLK2

NetHandle:  NET-209-193-128-0-1

Parent:     NET-209-0-0-0-0

NetType:    Direct Allocation

NameServer: NSF.ALGX.NET

NameServer: NSE.ALGX.NET


RegDate:    1998-03-04

Updated:    2002-12-24

TechHandle: ZA141-ARIN

TechName:   Allegiance Internet

TechPhone:  +1-800-581-8711


OrgAbuseHandle: AARA-ARIN

OrgAbuseName:   ALGX Abuse Role Account

OrgAbusePhone:  +1-240-616-2155



OrgNOCName:   ALGX Network Control Center

OrgNOCPhone:  +1-866-696-2794


OrgTechHandle: ZA141-ARIN

OrgTechName:   Allegiance Internet

OrgTechPhone:  +1-800-581-8711


ken hunter <>
nokesville, va, usofa - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 17:56:30 (ZULU)


 Email me a quick note with a one-over-the-world of the DQ (PMR/TMR if you know for sure).  The usarec in my address is recruiting command.  You are, pardon the expression, a project.  May take up to 3 months to get an exception, and unless you're kickin' butt--they may not have the time to invest, hence the blow-off.  On the other hand, we kick ass, and I do have the time for good people.  Contact me, and we'll talk specifics.  I'll give ya the numbers in response for direct commo.  Too damned easy, really.  Just time consuming...

Deputy Doug,

 Oh, Hell...come up and shoot, but be prepared for "it" to freeze over.  Jokes like that are welcome for dinner, too!  That one wuz a hoot!  


 Back on the cold range day--the FN SPR stopped shooting about the same time I froze solid.  Oil in the bolt locked the firing pin enough to cease ignition.  Hmmm.  Reminded me of Alaska.  Except I thought it weren't cold enough for that kinda thing until it was well below zero.  Anyone else have this problem?  Maybe I had some moisture in there somehow?  Radio had it at 5 deg. F, my thermometer said 12F.  I thought it weird...

 Then, Geoff's mouse gun bit me.  So I went to Lauer's Guns in Chippewa, WI last night.  Great place, fantastic folks (but not exactly SC people--they like to quietly spray .223 out to about 300 yds max).  Anyway, I sat at the bench and put together an upper with some tutoring (I am sure they took it apart though).  I had a grand time.  My 1SG is buying his first mousegun from these guys--as will I upon DEROS.  I think I made 4 new best friends in that shop--and I only stopped in once before.  Anyone who has ever held a firearm gets the same treatment there by all accounts.  


I know a phrog flies fasterer than my ride, but that still sounds like a  brutal x-country jaunt.  


 I laughed so damn hard when I read Jerry lee's post...cuz I knew what wuz coming.  The archives are the ONLY place to start BEFORE you make that first post.  Aww hell, who am I to talk?  I got the NY times in the nose for the same reason.  BTW--thanks for the advice on the 870---all this Browning talk made me realize how many boxes of 308 I can buy with the savings.  13 pheasants and one turkey so far have died, and extra money for an A5 wouldn't change that outcome at all!  My 870 is the perfect choice for a working gun.  So, thanks for all the advice--and keep posting more.  You are heeded in all matters and we all are better for it.  BTW-learned something about you (reference your resume in the last post).  "Sir" ain't exactly a bad title for ya.  I was suitably impressed by what may be common knowledge by long time rosterfarians...

The "Cat" is outta da bag!  Lito is a freakin' genious...once suspected, now confirmed.  

Hey, I rode the short I'ze slow...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 18:16:46 (ZULU)

big boss lives in  other places....

Jan 14 18:21:05 spanky sendmail[15635]: h0EIKxm15635: from=<>, size=89265, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, []

such as SouthWestern Bell in ... I'd say houston texas...

ken hunter <>
nokesville, va, usofa - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 18:23:33 (ZULU)

Shit Joe, I did it in the mini-me version of your ride, the TH-57C. A good 9 hr jaunt from P-cola to S.C.


Kush out

Kush <>
P-cola, Fl, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 18:45:14 (ZULU)

Mike, i trust the Brits kept you well oiled? glad you where taken care of.Shame about the knee, knee problems are a real pain in the ass, exept they are in the knee,mine are fucked.

Chris, so why is the NXS back at niteforce(or was that Hakko)?

My wifes birthday today, big 34.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 18:56:55 (ZULU)

Ya know, it would be a nickname like greeceman who would raise the &*£$%'n moly flag again.  Grease, were you happy with your 400 shots previous?  then go with that..  ha..  Anyone here who knows me will tell ya my motto, if you shoot moly, shoot moly, if you shoot neck-ed, shoot neck-ed.  Rebarrel when necessary.

Oh the smell of hoppes#9 and cutting oil in the morning, it's good to be back to work..  Anyone here shoot the 7.5 Swiss?  confusing round, don't quite understand the logic of it yet, but people are ordering them(mad Swiss people)...  

Hey, does anyone here deal with a Ben Shilling from Rapid City SoDak for any of their riffles, rebarrels, or what not?


oh, MikeM!!  how in THE hell did you bust yourself up..  f'n gung ho from San Di-e-go(it rhymes damnit), get your butt home and soak it in cider..  ya old bastad, that's why they draft us young, we bounce..Nah good to see your in one piece (un)dude, well with a few extra floaties.. F'n hell, they send ya some brit lassies to take care of you?  Christ, if you're recanting 'God Save the Queen' there can be no doubt, who needs crutches....


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 19:55:38 (ZULU)

Migraines...what a b*tch !

Just a quick thanx to y'all that took the time to send me advice on my trouble getting back in the military.  Jody, Kush & Joe especially. :)

Anyone in here ever serve in a C.L.C.M. outfit ?


Aaron <>
blytheville, ar, U.S. of (Smile when you say it) A. - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 20:11:43 (ZULU)

Technical request for some professional advice. I have an Steyer SSG. I recently had the rather unpleasant experiece of having the 10 round magazine come apart. That is, the little "ears that clip into the receiver came off. Since this magazine has not been made in awhile, it is the older clear back version, does anyone have any idea where I might get it repaired?

The last time I saw the newer version, they were 150.00. I don't relish the idea of doing that if I can get this one fixed.

You guys have always been a wonderful soruce of information. I have even brought and sold a few things few here. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Doug B <>
Dunedin, FL, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 20:16:10 (ZULU)

ASC # 2     ASC # 2    ASC  # 2   ASC # 2


 I put in an order a few minutes ago for a George Gardner rifle that will be raffled off as a prize at the match.  That translates to a 1 in 30 chance of winning a new rifle and shooting a great match all in the same weekend. CRS prevents me from remembering the odds of winning in a normal SC rifle raffle, but I have to believe 1 in 30 is more betterer.  The best part is we still have a few slots.  That's it for now.


rod hansen <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 20:38:30 (ZULU)

I'm going to start calling these posts prepubescent, instead of newbie...


CALL STEYR!!!Perhaps you all ready did, and if so, call me s*&$head, then rant on..

And I apologise if I offended, but sheesh, some of youse guys shoot straight to the DR when you should be usin' yer noggins.. when in doubt, go straight to the source first....

JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 20:55:22 (ZULU)

Dear John and CDC and all:

RE:  Crossbows.

Wonderful feedback!

RE:  "During protest march, community leaders and civil rights activists denounce police officials who authorized use of razor sharp arrow shot from mideval weapon to kill youth."  When I mentioned "flammable environments," by no means did I intend the overheated atmosphere of a protest march, or even a large gathering of practicing pot-heads! :-)

What I have are questions on the utility of a certain weapon and about the tactics employing it, not comments on politics!


I was thinking the place to use a crossbow would be places like Houston, TX's Ship Canal, or other places with large, petrochemical installations: lots of big tanks of very flammable stuff, lots of fumes of all kinds floating around, constantly changing, negating the use of a firearm.  The situations I was thinking of are 1.) a suicide with Zippo, or 2.)  a War-on-Terror type hostage-taking in the middle of said petrochemical plant.

In situation 1:

If negotiations fail, the crossbow could put a wooden bolt into the brain of the Suicide before said brain could send the message to the hand:  "Flick your Bic."  Zero danger of explosion or fire taking place.

In Situation 2:

"Ha!" thinks the hostage-taking leader, "vaunted FBI HRT, what can they do here?  They do not dare fire weapon into this place: one ricochet and they achieve all the terror I desire:  hostages burned alive, petrochemical plant destroyed, while I and all my team go to their eternal reward."

Still, the leader places sentries at various vantage places, to warn him and to tell him when and where the cash-laden helicopters land to take him and his hostages to "freedom" (John, your knowledge of flammable gas clouds comes in handy here:  in a petrochemical plant, where would the clouds be, and in what proportions, where sentries would most likely be placed?).

So, if negotiations fail, and it is time for the HRT to make their move, the snipers, using crossbows and wooden bolts, take out the sentries with quiet, quick, coordinated shots, without any danger of igniting the facility.  HRT moves in close, with the hostage-taking leader blissfully ignorant that his eternal reward is coming to him very quickly.

What do you think?


Spectre <>
U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:00:17 (ZULU)


Guess the moly issue is one that stirred up a lot of discussion(before I spent any time on SC)here. The rifle had 350 through the bbl  from previous owner just trying to get the feel of long distance shooting and the best way to get the best groups. Thanks and sorry!!


greeceman <>
cordova , tn, 38018 - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:02:08 (ZULU)


"What happens after the snipers take the sentries out?"

As to the close-and-dirty part of this fun little scenario, I leave to your fertile imaginations.  :-)


Spectre <>
U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:02:26 (ZULU)

Gosh, I'm sorry, but this is my last attempt at trying to stay up late enough to get my hours back in order.  I will NOT wake at 2am tomorrow!!

Anyway, Spectre, does lead spark?


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:14:47 (ZULU)

SSG 10 round mags,

Steyr is producing them again. The quick way to tell if its a new or old mag, is that the old mags had a transparent back, the new ones have a black back.

There's a guy in the UK selling them for about $80. web contact details are below, but I'd try shopping around in the US first, as EVERYTHING is cheaper in America (as I'm sure a jetlagged JR knows only too well).

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:19:42 (ZULU)


Good to hear on the George Gardner rifle for ASC#2. Even with the 1 in 30 odds I'll still lose but at least my odds are better than normal ;)

How many more slots you have open? Maybe I'll see if I can get some more people up my way.

Rob01 <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:23:40 (ZULU)


No biggie on the Moly,, but it's been done to death.  Those that use it will continue to use it and those that hate it will continue to hate it.  The main problem comes in when you shoot Moly and then clean it all out.  The first few shots are all over the place.  With naked bullets,, this is far less of a problem.  Also,, when you have a bore prepped with Moly and shoot brights, it can (and most likely will) change your POI.

I have considered using Moly in my XTC service rifle, becuase I hate cleaning it and a little Kroil/Shooter Choice and a few wet patches and I'm good to go for the next match.  I get a couple sighters anyway,, but my hunting rifles and rifles that I need a good CBS shot with will never see Moly.

If you can take the initail beating from the Patrons,, this is the place.  I would recommend spending about a week of down time and reading the archives from about '98 to present.  It'll get you up to speed on the background of long standing threads,, and might bring up some old sheep stories;))


Looks like it's time for a rebuild on that scope.  As I recall,, you checked the base and rings,, and 20" POI/POA is a pretty big difference.  If you don't the way the 260 is treating ya,, you can always make it into a FagMag ;)  You might not loose any barrel doing it.....


Chris <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:26:04 (ZULU)

Spectre:  "What I have are questions on the utility of a certain weapon and about the tactics employing it, not comments on politics!"

Excuse me sir.  Please pardon my impertinence.  It won't happen again.

CDC' <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:30:27 (ZULU)


On the email issue - I am working on it.  What I am doing is that no email will show.  But somebody will still be able to send you email - via the site.  The email address will be replaced by a <mail poster> link - or something like that.

When they click the link a page will open (much like the posting page), where they have to enter their details (mail, name, message subject) and what they want to send you.  Then click the submit button, and their message will be mailed to you.

And they still won't have your email address, unless *you* then reply to them - your choice.

Unfortunately I'm not finished with it as I had hoped to be, and it will be a while.  I was wise/foolish enough to enroll (company pays) for a one-year university certificate (MDP - basically first year of MBA, at a slightly lower level), and it is one HELLUVA lot of work!  So my time for the site is going to be more restricted than it has been up till now.

But this is on my important list, as I'm getting so much rubbish it is just not funny any more.

Marius <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:49:28 (ZULU)

Sphincter, er, uh, spectre or how's the paintball these days?......Mom know you're here?........

MarkSmith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:50:24 (ZULU)


Thanks for the input I will reference the postings you recomended. As far as taking a little fire from the patrons no problem it just like being at the huntin' camp, if ya cant run with the big dogs stay on the porch....



greceman <>
cordova, Tn, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 21:57:12 (ZULU)


OK, I guess your curiosity needs to be appeased. I am an LE sniper and have been hunting with a bow for 20+ years, I also have several handicapped friends who own and use crossbows so I am probably qualified to answer.

Situation #1  NO!

Situation #2  NO!

A crossbow is no more powerfull than a regular compound bow. A bow shot to the head is nearly impossible at 100 yards and it is doubtful that the bolt would have enough energy left to penetrate the head at that distance. Even if we move closer, to say 30 or 40 yards, the effective range of most crossbows, the chance of a miss is much greater than if you were using a rifle and if the shot is not perfectly straight on it will likely not penetrate the skull even at that range. Wooden crossbow bolts? It is difficult to find wooden arrows these days, I am not sure that anyone makes them and if they do they would most certainly have some type of metal point making the risk of creating sparks just as great if the target is missed. Besides, I would think that if the gas cloud is close enough to the BG to be worried about a miss setting off an explosion, then the BG would most likely be overcome by the gas negating the need for a shot. If he is smart enough to bring a gas mask then his vision is screwed and mask wearing HRT guys should be able to get close enough to neutralize him. Of course this is just MHO.

Sorry for the long post guys.

Can we put this to sleep now?

Take care all!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 22:17:36 (ZULU)


Your PSS magazine problem is not unique.  Been there, done that!  Now, Dynamit Nobel in Closter, NJ {( TEL: (201)767-RWS1} is the licensed importer of Steyr Mannlicher, and they are the factory authorized repair center.  Their 'smith is just learning the product lines, having now received all of the tooling and parts stock from GSI.  He will help you out.  I'm afraid you might not get the expertise of GSI, the prior importer, but a simple magazaine repair/rebuild should not be a problem.  Does not have to go back to Austria.  GSI was VERY good to me over the years!

Look long and hard, and try to buy another magazine just for times like this!  Contact Arego's.  They post a lot on

OK Hawgs, I see no reason in the world why a person can't come to the experience of the Roaster on a firearms related question.  It is not always a matter of laziness,Hell, it can be quicker than doing the research yourself!  I don't know much, but I will be willing to share my misfortunes and experiences with anyone just to prevent them from going through it themselves.  A little PLDC trained leadership goes a long way!



Les <>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 22:48:56 (ZULU)

Oh no, has someone got a busted NXS?  Don't tell Pete L about it for God's sake.  Hes been looking for excuses to poke fun at my choice of scope for months ;-)

Pete, got the rail glued on with Araldite and the screws loctited.  Off to zero the thing tomorrow.  Hopefully this will be the end of the shifting zero.

Contacted Marty and mentioned the teflon on the receiver and rail problem, in passing.  He suggested that teflon on the rail and receiver shouldn't be a problem, BUT, teflon in the screw holes would be.  Don't know about the screw holes, but screws were certainly coated, and funny how ALL 4 screws had come undone.  

Shame on you Pete for even thinking the NXS could be at fault, let alone mention it.  I shake my head in disappointment ;-)


Jon Beardsley <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 22:52:19 (ZULU)

Gee, maybe we can talk this through.  CLick my name for a link that expresses just how much N Korea wants to "talk".


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 23:01:56 (ZULU)

Agree with Patron Opp on the crossbow thing......

Crossbows essentially suck in every way possible. Bulky, one shot, strings break, limbs break. Don't take a bow to a gun fight! Plus, why the hell would an entry team want to follow a bag guy into those conditions anyway? Depending on the vapor density and LEL/UEL, he probably will take himself out either by suffocation or by providing an ignition source. He could scratch himself in the right way and POOOOOFFFF from static electricity. Plus Plus, the entry team couldn't go into those conditions either cause they would have to be wearing SCBA in order not to suffocate with the bad guy. WHEW!

Just go get a cup of coffee and a sandwich and let mother nature take her course. No arrest, no trial, won't have to pay lawyers, no breath, no questions. Just pronounce and bury! KISS principle.


Good pickup, beat me to it.


You must not have my football coaches over there. I was limping a little, "what's wrong Bolt?", knee hurts coach, kaaaaawwwhhaaappppppp, "feel better now", yes sir coach! Thumb was bent backards, "what's wrong Bolt?", thumb's kinda outa joint, "lemme see", jeeeerrrrkkkkkkk, "feel better now?", yes sir coach!

Peter Lincoln.....

You want a real pain in the ass??? I have to have a pilonidal cyst cut out tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dejected, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 23:18:55 (ZULU)


 First, you spelled it wrong--and why the hell did yer parents name you after the AC-Mod dirty-Herc?  But I digress with misnomers whence I really want to dispell misguidedness.  Now, ever hear of Liability Lawsuits?  Or light and variable winds, of say 5kts?  So the hostage gets a splinter in the sphincter, right?  Which, coincidentally, is where I suspect you pulled your scenarios.  Now then, Petro-chem storage tanks of 3/4-1" steel sheathing backed up by 3000psi of pressure is no match for our barn-burnin' 22 LR.  Those little things will penetrate anything at 1200fps, eh?  There is a water tank in Wheaton, MD with little star patterns on it.  Some punk hit it with 9mm and scratched the paint all up.  Oooooh.  Eeeeh.  Scary...

And--The most important thing to consider--If you are worried about missing yer target in a hostage situation, wouldn't that stop you anywhere on the effin' planet?  Or, is popping a a tank and crispin' yer own ass the only consideration these days?  The occassional hostage that buys one of your rounds isn't such a big-hairy deal--so long as your ass ain't burnt in the process!  I get it...damn. And here I was, all worried about the hostages...While I am bagging on ya, I suppose you've read all about the OSS.  And you know all about their crossbow problem.  They built one that would do what you want one to do, except no one wanted to carry the beast.  Hell, this is the silliest crap I've seen yet round here.  Take your freakin' toys and go play with all the other boys and girls.  And do me a favor, if yer ever around and I am the hostage--walk away, okay?  I'll extract myself.

OK, fellas, I ignored it once.  I did.  Really.  But twice is more than I could stand...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 23:25:10 (ZULU)

RE: Roadrunner- Did some looking, the contact number for Roadrunner's security department is toll free 877-588-8508. Bacl to deleting infected email.

Seuss <>
PA, USA - Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 23:25:26 (ZULU)

Received Warning Order.  My Ops O and I get attached to the 82nd tomorrow morning for 5 months.  It ain't for air shows.

Sinister Dave <>
- Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 23:58:54 (ZULU)

Funny crossbow story from a few years back.........

It's Christmas, I'm assembling bow and arrow stuff for junior, along with Col. brother in law and Jim Beam.  The col. is 1SF-D, if ya know, it's Crawler........

Anyway, we get to the broadhead part and he picks one up with a rather quizical look on his face............"ya know we used this brand to get 8 in Panama........seem to be a good choice......."

Crossbows seem to have a utilitarian usage after all.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 00:00:15 (ZULU)

Dave:  Best of luck to you and the boys.  

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 00:12:40 (ZULU)

Just talked to Sinister and wished him good luck.

I didn't tell him that I thought that this was just another excuse to keep from having me clean his clock at Butner this year! I guess getting deployed is as good an excuse as any. LOLLOLLOL

Good luck bud and maintain contact with the Hawgs! Bolt out again.

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 00:23:50 (ZULU)


<<You want a real pain in the ass??? I have to have a pilonatal cyst cut out tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!>>

Oh man, that's not funny at all. I had that done 14 years ago. I was dirt poor. No job, just married you know the story. Doctor wanted to do it in the hospital put me to sleep the whole works. I had $35 dollars to my name and told him to do his best with that. Didn't want to spend the cash, but I couldn't drive anymore and had to get it fixed so I could find a job. So one shot of Novocain and cut away. I mean right away!!! He didn't even let it numb first. Holy Crap!!! I prayed for death and it wouldn't come. Then the doctor screams "Oh my God," Now I knew I was in trouble.

Nurses and doctor are running all over the place looking for enough gauze to soak up all the stuff coming out. I had no idea. There are no human words to describe what was coming out… In my last moment of consciousness I look back and see that they have left the door to my room open and every one in the waiting room is looking me in all my grossed glory.

Then I had to walk 2 miles home, because there was no way I was going to be sitting down for a while. Felt like I was living the Battan Death March. The only good part was that the doctor felt so bad about it that he didn't charge me.

Needless to say prayers going out for you immediately. And I really mean that!

John Levens

John Levens <>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 00:26:08 (ZULU)

Do they, like, make a semi auto crossbow that's, like, belt fed?

John :)) I kill me.


Just saw your note, Gods Speed my man, take care.


ACL or MCL? Glad that's all it is and you're safe.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 00:27:45 (ZULU)

John, this is my SECOND one! First one went like yours did. I might as well had taken a rusty dull knife to my ass with no more lido than he hit me with. It was close to lunch time so he didn't give it much time to take.

Where's my doughnut to sit on? Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 00:30:05 (ZULU)


No, the semi auto crossbow is magazine fed, it's the full auto crossbow that is belt fed. :) :)

Bolt, I feel your pain man, Ifin ya can't find yer donut I can send ya one! :)

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 00:34:23 (ZULU)

Feedback for those that thought my Steyer SSG 69 magazine question was "prepubescent" (Is that  Oete Townsend joke?).

I called GSI, they flipped me to Dynamit-Nobel. They sadi "if you are not a dealer we aren't talking. The dealer (Diamond Trail) says "Yeah I have been ordering the parts for the magazines but they will not ship them. The only thing I can do is sell you a new one for 175.00." And, BTW, we do not repair them, period.

I guess since I was prepubescent, at least in my technique, in my question I should not be offended that you thought i was braindead

It amazes me sometimes how nice the "gun owning, gun-using community can be to each other.

There were a couple of responses from people and I appreciated them. I will gladly buy on for 80.00 from the guy in UK if he has them. Come on guys, we are looking at OPS on three fronts, simultaneously. I limit myself to one dumbass question a year on herr. I always give somebody a break if they buy something from me from this site. I have been hanging out around here for 5 years, and don't see the need to piss in my shoe because you "judged" my question to be unworthy.

Bottomline, Steyer seems to give one rats ass about repair work on 20 year old mags. That's the real news here. I was hoping somebody had a better way, since htis is teh board of the best and brightest. I got a coupple of ideas, they are most appreciated, I will ask my next dumbass prepubescent question in 2004.

later, out

2 tours in 'Nam, 2 bronze stars and some other stuff , Golden Eagle Member, active supporter of all things related to supporting the RKBA.

Long way from "prepubescent"

Doug B <>
Dunedin, FL, - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 00:39:26 (ZULU)

Posted by Spectre: "I was thinking the place to use a crossbow would be places like Houston, TX's Ship Canal"

Whatever you say boss.  Pull your f-ing pants on.

Posted by Ken:  "such as SouthWestern Bell in ... I'd say houston texas..."

Godspeed Sinister sir.

Joe, you drove to Lauer's and built yo self an upper eh?  LOL.  What configuration?  What kind of barrel?  You get the M21 zeroed?

Doug B (not Deputy Doug)....relax a bit!  JR is jez cranky cuz he can't lose the jet lag AND has forgotten to talk like a yankee.  He has a point, just sometimes the method of delivery around here is heavy handed.  My initial icebreaker stirred a lot of shit if I remember correctly.

Out here.  

Geoff M <>
USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 01:44:52 (ZULU)


Looks like we're going to have to move you from your current status of Master back to your original "Master at Large".  Good luck on this deployment man.  If you run into Nick,, say Hi for me will ya,, and tell him to keep his head down.

Nick Gebhardt,

If you're lurkin' mang,, be safe and keep your head down.  West Memphis is rought but they don't have tanks yet. (No, the 73 caddy doesn't count)


Yup.  The first two or three posts will expose where the metal is.


If you really need sleep, there is always booze.  Start drinking when you get home and don't stop 'till ya hit the floor.  Just try and make sure you pass out face down ;)  "Fat Dude" is getting polished(outside) and threaded tonight!!!  Chambered Thursday,, and I'm weeks away from the nearest stock...  damnit!


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 02:22:30 (ZULU)

Mike, That really was me sending the message to you from a yahoo email account!

Michael <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 03:00:54 (ZULU)

Spectre, and I mean no disrespect to the gunship. If you're thinking petrochemical plants have vapors in the ignition range floating around, you're not a spectre, you're a spaced-out-re. If tangoes are in that kind of environment, the answer is "close the hatch". Too easy. If you're questioning what kind of nasty stuff will become of a tank with a hole punched in it, guess again. If you've never heard of bleves, then too bad. Are you sure you're over 18? I highly doubt it. Maybe Brian Sain really deals more with harpoon guns than he does sniper rifles. Hey Brian, can I get an "Avast ye scurvy dogs!"? I make NO jokes now about you and white whales, because chicks dig us 8p

Mike Miller, glad you got back in one piece, although it's a broken one. Drop me a line with your address, I've got some Japanese steel to donate to the cause. It slices, it dices, it even makes juliane fries, whatever those are. Welcome home amigo.

Pat, sounds like your scope is tango uniform. On the good side, those guys will take care of you well, assuming you get beyond the twits at the front desk.

Marius, you're the man. Way to go!

Dave, you have all my best wishes also. And here you thought you got a nice cushy job with rifle junkies. Just take care of yourself, you've got lots of us pulling for you here.

Bolt, while I have no idea what a pilot, uh, postnatal, uh, pileofnaval whatever is, get better soon, really really soon. Think of it this way, now you've got an excuse to hang about and post lots HA!

Doug B, I think you may have misunderstood the prepubescent comment. Or maybe I did. I thought it was aimed at sphincter, who appears very much to be about that age.

CDC, that's all too funny. How did I guess? LOL. By the way, your son should have another doggie box hitting the doorstep pretty quick. The picking ain't Buck Owens class, but it's good. There's a little extra in there too, the Lutheran school should have a blast with the bluegrass version of Hells Bells.

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 03:23:16 (ZULU)

Thanks for the heads up about "Big Boss" I had four of those nasties waiting for me on my Email but E & E them all  :-) They came with the wording "Sample" and "Here is the sample" all with attachemnts

Once again Adapt improvise and overcome works best with being forwarned  

Semper FI

bomac <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 03:26:37 (ZULU)


 I put the upper together--shorty--but I didn't buy it (yet-grin).  It was an Oly reciever and an ukn barrel and a handful of assorted parts.  I made the mistake of saying something like "well, parts guns are for the knowledgeable--not for me..." and next thing ya know, I'm building one.  (Hint--don't buy it if the gas tube looks slightly off center).  We wuz on our way through--so we stopped in after hours.  1SG is buying one though.  He's hooked on them mouse-guns now.

M21 is still waiting for me to thaw out from the last arctic training adventure! It's 20 below wind-chill...and I am not a sadist after all.  I think the plum line idea fixed the windage issue though.


 Take care of them there paratroopers...and yourself.  Hope to see ya soon, but if not, I'll be in the '4 shop pushing the good stuff forward where it will be appreciated!  Pushing is the word too.  I'm going forward to the rear!  

Just a few months ago, I thought I was sooo smart volunteering for this assignment.  Now it's looking like I'm gonna be the last one to the party.  How did this happen?  I done outsmarted myself again.  Which begs the question--am I the smart one, or the dumb one-- Or just schizo?  "You're the dumb one-am not --am too  ohh shut up."  Never mind, me and me are going to the playground with our crossbow to shoot at gaseous fuel-air mixtures. "Oh, leave it be--No, I will not.."heheh.

We crack me up.

Joe M.


Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 03:37:16 (ZULU)

By the way Rick, was watching an M2 Ultra on Ebay, more for kicks than anything else. It went for $815. If you would have bid just a bit more, you could have had another example of your favorite glass. It went for more than your REAL favorite though, those ARTs go cheap in comparison.

Jaeger <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 03:41:18 (ZULU)




                   RE; MBA:  DO IT ......AND DO IT WITH



                  IT'S ALL IN THE FOCUS!!!!!!

            AS OUR LITO WOULD SAY........

               OBJECTIVE ....RETICLE....EYEPIECE....


macgregor <>
an AMERICANadian up here in CANADIA DESPITE THEM , - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 04:16:33 (ZULU)

Dan and Blake................ Enjoy! Oh yeah, I have a steel front door ;)))

Doug B,

       I could have sworn that 'prepubescent' thing was directed at the "Sphincter". He's been watching too much Gunny Ermey on the TV.


         Take good care of yourself and your boys. Keep in touch with the Roaster when and if you can. Don't worry, Perry will still be there when you return - it only seems like it's gonna blow away:))


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 05:08:55 (ZULU)

Doug B.

I too, think the puberty comment was elsewhere directed. Jet lag is a horrible burden to bear.


Take 2 and call us in the afternoon. I'm not sure what it is but I'm pretty sure I don't want it. Hope you're better'n new soon.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 10:59:48 (ZULU)

Doug, let me see what an SSG mag costs here in the fatherland, Euro stuff is usualy cheaper here than in the Old Country or in the states(exept the Leica 1200, i still dunno how that bloke can sell em for $420 ish).But that plastic mag and the whole bottom stuff on the steyers is crap, one of the soldiers i was hunting with last week has a steyr, the bottom bits are realy in about 3 bits, broken or cracked apart.

Also get price on G3 30mm mount this afternoon.

Jon, you mean to tell me that Tooley didn't run a tap through the holes after the thing was coated? you might just well have oiled the sods. What you need to do to make sure it ain't loose is, glue the rail on, solder it on, glue the screws in and stake them in place, then weld the whole thing to the reciever, then wrap black and nasty (100mph tape or whatever), around it, then you know its fixed. Then when you still have wandering probs, sell me the NXS, (my boy could use a better scope for his airgun) and ask me nicely about a S&B.. gottcha ! say hi to the sheep for me !!

Re crossbows, I once saw a swan with a bolt through its kneck, it didn't seem to be worried about the obstruction. Some ass hole had shot it there and the RSPB had to cathc the swan and remove it, i think a bullet would have killed the swan. Ref the petrochem plant, sod it, blow the place sky high, who needs petrochem any way, be like me, run you diesel on cooking oil.

Guys, i'm down with the flu, got a stinking one, have to dress out a deer and thread/chamber a barrel this afternoon and i don't feel like doing either. I just wanna go to bed! the i'll be fit to get me new jeep tommorow. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 11:04:35 (ZULU)

                        RELOADING QUESTION

I have a friend that is building a custom 300RUM and he wants to get into reloading for it. Is the Rockchucker large enough to accommodate this round, or will he need a different press? Does anyone have a pet load for him to try out?


I hope you get to feeling better buddy! I will be sending you some E-mails soon. A friend is coming to Germany to play American football, and he has some questions about life over there..



TonyM <>
FL, US of A!!!! - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 13:15:01 (ZULU)

Sinister and John, Watch your 6's guys! You and your troops come home safe! Keep in touch as you can!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 13:48:31 (ZULU)

Scope problem...

  I took my rifle out last night(Braved the cold 15 degrees and windy)to check out my 3.5x10LRs dialing problem. What I found has left me more confused than before.

  I made a 4' scale on cardboard marked off in inches and set the rifle up and went to dialing. It seemed to track fine but when I got done dialing it back and forth my 100yd zero was off by about 1.5".

  It was shooting 1.5" low from the original point of impact from the night before. I think I will just pull it and send it back to Leupold and let them do their thing to it, I just don't trust it anymore.


 Be careful Bud, keep your head down and your powder dry!!!


 Damn guy, I don't know what to say other than I am damn glad its you and not me!!!(HA) Good luck and hope all goes well.


 I haven't given up yet!! There is something that I am overlooking here. This thing wants to be a shooter I just have to unlock the right combination.

Pat <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 14:37:32 (ZULU)

Some comments about the fragility of the international security situation.  Things could collapse real quick:

"It's not just military capacity this nation lacks right now, however. It's an adequate sense of the seriousness of the present world crisis. It seems odd to suggest, after September 11, 2001, that the United States has still not awakened to the real challenges of this dangerous era."

CDC' <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 15:44:15 (ZULU)

Sinister Dave, best wishes for you and your compadres.

John Leveron <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 16:31:40 (ZULU)


    People have a very short attention span and 9/11 has lost it's value as a tool for the polotical people to use to get there own issues passed "In the war on terror."  I keep a link on my puter to a site w/ pics of that day and visit frequently just to remind myself of what happend.  I am not sure what it is going to take to get this country really motivated and keep it that way for long enough to get the job done.  The general public got bored after there were no more pictures of laser guided bombs hitting buildings and tanks.  They thought that was the extent of the war, It worked in Gulf 1, didn't it?   The only thing that Bush is going to be able to say is "I told you so..."  Or "You can't say I didn't warn you.."  Unfortunatly I think a lot more people are going to have to be killed before this country gets on the right path.  I just hope it happens in berkley (not capitalized on purpose, due to lack of any respect for the town.)

Bolt,  My dad spent 3 years in Europe in WWII, the only injury he got was a cut on the head in a pub fight in england.  Days after the germans surrenderd he got put on a hospital ship and sent home after he got an infection  where they tried to cut out a pilonatal cyst.  Had to have 3 more cuttings before they got it.

Keep your heads down,


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 16:55:28 (ZULU)


Starting to feel like a lurker...just off duty and wanted to post before the sleep fairy throws sleep dust in my eyes.

Have confirmed my partnership for ACS#2. Partner and I will keep  it secret for now...just to confuse you all. Needless to say I'm worried about this 51 year old going out to act like a young stud, again. Started working out and dieting. Figure between now and then I might be in some kind of shape, so as not to embarass myself and my partner.

Sinister, I wished you well in private, but wanted my best wishes and prayers to "go public". You and your men come back in one piece. I'd make that an order, but you outrank me. Guess I'll pray to the big guy and hell make it an order...;-)

Have been playing with a new windage toy. Looks promising, but it's hard to quantify wind when  it changes at various points between you and the target. These devices help, but it still comes down to an educated guess. Dope it, dial it, and dump it...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 19:39:03 (ZULU)

Sinister,stay safe,have fun & get home safe.



Gavan Willis <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 19:40:06 (ZULU)

Good thing I'm not a cat. Curiosity (or 'Lito)woulda got me.

.....Another theory is that pilonidal cysts are acquired through trauma to the sacrococcygeal region. During World War II, more than 80,000 soldiers developed pilonidal cysts that required a hospital stay. People thought the cysts were due to irritation from riding in bumpy Jeeps. For a while it was actually called “Jeep disease.”......

Another link from the search started with a photo. Kinda scared me at first. Course, after I noticed that the link was or something. Whoa!!  Looked like a guy I had to arrest this past week!!

After reading a bit about that cyst thing, Ya gots my Heartfelt Sympathy Bolt. Hang in there.  No pun  :)

Pat, are ya better off sending that tube to Leupold or Premier Reticles?  Curious (there it goes again). I been real happy with Priemer.

Deputy Doug, out

Doug Bourdo <>
K town, WI, US O' A - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 19:52:32 (ZULU)

Doug... and "prepubescent" and others asking questions!

Please... P-L-E-A-S-E do everyone a favor when you ask a question.

Many beginners are just too damn lazy, and just throw out simple questions, (Where can I find scope bases for my M700?) cuz they don't want to make a few phone calls, or use a search engine.

But some of you have done your homework, and still can't find a solution, or find the part you need...

So please, P-L-E-A-S-E consider asking your question like this...

>"Hey guys, I'm lookin' for a glatzinhammer for a model 69 shootzenfooger.  I have altready called the dealer, the distributor, and the manufacturer, and "PARTS-R-US" and the say they don't have it<"

Don't make everyone answer your question with the obvious, or tell you to do the things you have already done... if this keeps up, the guys with the answers will just stop answering all questions, and go elsewhere.


Ya' think?

CatShooter <>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 20:13:12 (ZULU)

Deputy Doug..

  I didn't know Premier did service work for Leupolds?? I would send it to them if they do and its free.

Pat <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 20:19:07 (ZULU)

Wes --Don't keep your partinership for ASC #2 too much of a secret.  It would be a good idea to let me know- I will keep it under my hat.  I wouldn't worry too much about a big physical fittness program, you only have to walk about a mile and a half each day - one day it's essentially level and the other day it's down hill!  Besides the hardest part of the entire match is setting it up -moving a couple  tons of steel around these hills is work.

 I exchanged emails with 'lito about the match yesterday.  His final email of the day was a question about being able to shoot his 50 BMG.  The answer was Yes!  It should be a really interesting match.  He won't be using the 50 on our steel, just our rocks-must not be many places in Connecticut to stretch it out.        

 We still have four slots left. Email me if you are interested.


rod hansen <>
- Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 20:26:29 (ZULU)

All this talk of cysts, do you guys mean heamoroids? dangle berries? arse grapes, if so, been there,, had that removed, the damn injection was worse than the removal, and niether was as bad as the damn knee problems. Its funny, i don't know any ex soldiers who have not suffered at one time or another from piles/heamoroids(call em whatever). I put it down to sleeping on the ground, sitting on the ground, not bieng able to shit when you wanted and those damn rat pack Biscuits AB. anal blockers we called em, the talk when we where out in the field would always but absolutely always revolve from women,to food, to beer, and the some would mention how much they where looking forward to a porcelain shit ( ie, sat actualy on a real toilet) and every one would agree, actualy been able to sit on a real toilet was one of the things we missed the most when out in the boonies. We had a great phrase for taking a dump when out in the field, "Shovel recce"  or "Shovel recon".

Man do we cover some subjects on here.

Wife dragged me out shopping, great, i cancel some deer hunting today to stay at home, and i get dragged out to the damn furnature shops !! didn't get near the lathe/gun shop(which means i didn't get a price for steyr mag or G3 mount, will in the morning) and I've still got to butcher up my deer. I best get that done, can't have meat wasting.. Pete

ps any one seen hide or hair of Paul Cockerham?

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 21:14:30 (ZULU)


I use the Rockchucker for my 300 WM and it works great, should work fine for the 300 RUM as well although I don't reload that one.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 21:26:39 (ZULU)

Thanks to all regarding the advice about proper question technique and strategy. My humble apologies to the more experienced among you who have little patience with repetitive questions.

I now understand that this board is reserved for the affects/effects of piles, hemmroids and cysts on the ability to hold zero on a hard target.

No harm intended, I am wiser for having made this foray amongst the gurus of this board.

And, I mean this sincerley, as I said in the original post, this place is a fantastic source of information and insight about not only the intricacies of high power, highly accurate shooting, but, the conditions of the world and the people that have a tough jobs to do in an unforgiving place. I often marvel at those that put themselves through hell to serve so many that know so little...

later, out

Doug B <>
Dunedin, FL, - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 22:03:33 (ZULU)


you gettin' those emails at Yahoo and your house?  My misses sent out a birthday wish for the old lady...  Oh,, and the hemeroid discussion is something else.  "Got roids from sitting on my arse",,, Ahh, life as a REMF ;)


The rifle is crying out for a new chamber,, that's what's missing!!  Oh,, and did you see the .264" 28" Lilja on the emporium?  If she finished at 30",, It'd already be on the way to TN.

Gumby is home ;) Didn't even have time to go through FagMag withdrawl.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 22:54:39 (ZULU)


    Last time I did business with Premier Reticle they did not do Leupold warranty repairs. I don't think that it's changed since then!

Tony M,


    Never tried any of the RUM's in my Rockchucker. That's a pretty long case. Your friend should try the Redding 'Big Boss'. Not only will it accept the RUM's, 416's, etc. with ease, it'll also do the .50BMG's should the need arise. Will accept the large dia. die sets!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 23:22:07 (ZULU)


<<Bolt, while I have no idea what a pilot, uh, postnatal, uh, pileofnaval whatever is, get better soon, really really soon. Think of it this way, now you've got an excuse to hang about and post lots HA!>>

Pilonatal cyst. Hmmmmmm, how to describe. Ever see that movie "Alien"? You know the part when the little alien creature pops through the guys stomach. Pretty much the same thing except it's popping out of your butt crack where your tail bone ends. And no, it's no hemorrhoid.

Met two women who had a pilonatal cyst and said they would rather go through child birth again then do the cyst thing again.

So Bolt, did you make it sir? Hope your doing well. Oh and the only thing I could find to soak up all the oozing ... large overnight dry weave kotex. Those things are amazing. Hell that's an embarrassing thing to admit, but since some of you have admitted to wearing dresses I don't feel too bad. Boy, those were humbling days.


John Levens <>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 23:27:52 (ZULU)

What a friggin day....... Turned out not to be a hairball...... It was a fistula but I refuse to go into the rest of the story..... Too much information already........ Concern about my aching arse is greatly apprectiated...... I deserve a new rifle for this.......

John, Light Days Panty Liners with wings don't make as big a bulge! Your lady friends were correct, the first pilo cyst I had felt just slightly betterer than my last kidney stone. Makes you wonder how it feels to get shot?????/

A slightly uncomfortable Bolt, out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 23:28:37 (ZULU)


There are no doubt times in the past and certainly in the future that people in the press or the general public want to know what LEO, civ and mil shooters talk got to admit it would be funny to think you were going to see talk about high pwr distance macho shooting and find your self reading about....

Seriously as a junior person here and not knowing any of you personally, I hope you all find health and for those of you about to deploy good luck, gods speed!! This is a great sight y'all


greeceman <>
Cordova, Tn, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 01:06:15 (ZULU)


I have a scope problem.   It is a 4.5-14X50 LR Leupold with mil-dot reticle and side focus.   I had M-1 target knobs installed by Premier Reticle a long time ago.   It seems that it shoots "loose" groups at 14X, but tightens them up when backed down to 10X or so.

I have no idea how a variable scope works internally so is it possible for something to get out of whack when moving through the power range?

Also, should I send it to Leupold or Premier Reticles?   Will it be a problem to Leupold since I had the M1 knobs put on?

Thanks all.

Tim <>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 01:11:48 (ZULU)


 I truly hope and pray that you kick ass on yer "pain in the ass" so you may once again ride an ass (or even a horse) if so choose.  

And get "it" well soon, sir!  Cause once we put your sick ass and it's assed-up problems "behind" us, we can all concentrate on kickin' yer now-healthy ass at a match with some really bad-ass riffles.  For now, you have our collective sympathy--"but" soon, you will be the butt of some pretty funny ass jokes.  

"But" in the meantime, I'll "back" off those ass jokes out of respect.  Maybe we oughta talk about kicking some Terrs' ass, or just shootin' some wild-ass wildcats like Chris digs...or maybe hauling ass down to the Badlands, or some of Dan's ass-kicking intel links; or how about discussing the cold-assed "dairy-air" that froze us at the range--anything "but" your poor, sore ass...we are, if you'll pardon the expression, wearing it out. heheh.  

Bolt-I hope you at least chuckled, or I am just being a horse's ass who needs and ass-chewing for assed-up humor.

Well, gotta get out my browneye's, errrrr, Brownells catalog and find me a synthetic Mod 7 stock for Blake's youthz .260.  

Ben Dover (aka JM)

(OK, back to the regular rump-us)

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 01:16:20 (ZULU)


ANYTHING is funny right now LOL!

Time to get our collective asses back to shooting talk. Only four weeks until the first matches at Butner.

Speaking of shooting talk, where the heck is Bowcher?


Please give a little more detail on what the scope is doing at 10 and 14x. What distances, what grouping, etc.?

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 01:33:40 (ZULU)


  My windows are rocking.  A Guard unit just unleashed a "Battery-5" on north post FP's.  Uhhh, make that a batt-ten.  They are humping some rounds.  That isn't normal stuff, and believe me, it ain't a secret anymore either.  First, it's winter, second, it's Wednesday.  Neither of which are "usual" drill or AT dates.  Dat would 'splain the long lines at da PX lately...and all dat desert cammy walking the post.  

Heheh--hope they got good data on dem guns--this building ain't a bunker!  

The "thing" that would prevent our McCoy shoot is underway.

Soon, real soon, the world will wake up to the realization that the US ain't BS'n around anymore with the bit-players.  Resolute word backed up with serious action makes my morale soar.  My CinC's sense of purpose has a real effect on my attitude, too.  Pride and a sense of duty may be enough, but it sure is nice having a leader in charge again.  This adds something to the equation that cannot be articulated.  I think I'll go sing a chorus of some Lee Greenwood song now...Damn...I love the sound of outgoing artillery.  

Aaaaaammmmmm Proud to be an Aaaaaammmmmerican....where at least ahh know ahhhh-mmm free....

Get some, Arty!  Whooooo-hooo!

Gents, Game On! No more pissing around with the penny-ante despots!

There's a new Sheriff in town...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 02:08:50 (ZULU)

Pete L

I'm here buddy.  I have sent you about 5 e-mails and none have been returned; I hope you got them.  MAster Bolt just called and said that you needed to get in touch with me.  I haven't had the opportunity to post here lately, but I try to skim the Roster about once every 2 weeks.  You need a favor?  You name it.  If I can do it, I will.

By the way, I received the rings on Christmas eve.  Thanks!!!  They look good.  I am going to try to mount them this weekend if I can sneak 10-15 minutes.  That rifle will be shot in a match, by my father, on February 16th at Camp Butner.  We are both looking forward to it.

I will hit you off-line about your favor.  I am going to send an e-mail to both your addresses.  Also, the e-mail at the bottom of this post is my current e-mail ( )

If you do not get my e-mail, please send one to this address and I will reply.  I'm not sure why your mails are not coming through or why mine aren't getting to you.  Please include your postal address in your e-mail/reply if you don't mind.  I have it on the back of the package you sent, but I can't make parts of it out.  Well, that is all the time I have for now.  I hope all you guys and your families are well.  Take care.

Semper Fi

Paul <>
NC, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 02:21:20 (ZULU)


Thanks for the advice on the Davidson loading ramp, it arrived a couple of days ago and I fitted it that night - works a charm.  

To all you guys (and girls)about to lay it on the line stay safe and return to your loved ones.


2 ears, 2 eyes and 1 mouth - use what you have most of first.

Mick Hickey <>
NSW, Australia - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 02:52:51 (ZULU)

Pilonatal Cyst Country ? heh heh.

You guys kill me.

Regards all,


brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 03:57:26 (ZULU)

Jerry S.;

  Thanks for the Winchester info.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 04:44:02 (ZULU)

Mistah Boltster, good to have you back, and in this case, in multiple pieces LOL. Seriously, It's good to know you're doing OK. Hope they gave you some serious pain meds from the sound of it.

John, you Texas guys have a good sense of humor. I like that! Kotex and dresses HA! Next you'll be telling me about that wonderful olive colored eye liner and lip stick for field use LOL.

Speaking of Texas guys, anyone hear from Two Shoes in a while? I miss that guy, he's one of the best.

And since I'm off on the best, how about putting in a personal appearance there Mr. Rogers! Yes, this place has changed it's face more than an elderly french whore, but we all know you're still drawn to it like the rest of us. If it helps, use more perfume and turn the lights out.

And since I'm going off on french whores, good to see you back again Brian LOL Things been hot down there?

Any word if Mike has made it back home yet? He's got me concerned too.

On ASC2, now the kittywhacker is going to carry his man portable arty. That's one I've got to see. Or maybe he's got some young stud puppy as a partner, and convinced him that everyone does it that way. And buys beer and cheeseburgers for the team every night as well.

Jaeger <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 04:45:13 (ZULU)

>>>Speaking of Texas guys, anyone hear from Two Shoes in a while? I miss that guy, he's one of the best.<<<<

I run into him occasionally on the Hide.

>>>>John, you Texas guys have a good sense of humor. I like that! Kotex and dresses HA! Next you'll be telling me about that wonderful olive colored eye liner and lip stick for field use LOL.<<<<<

Jaeger Dudeski you're really beginning to make me wonder ;))))

BTW, you Bum. I tried calling you this evening and you didn't have the desency to be home. M14 related of course.

>>>>>And since I'm off on the best, how about putting in a personal appearance there Mr. Rogers!<<<<<<

Bill's got a helluva project going. We may all have to be patient before we see the end results, but I'm going to say its going to be WELL worth the wait. How's that for throwing you a bone? ;))

>>>>>And since I'm going off on french whores, good to see you back again Brian LOL Things been hot down there?<<<<<

Brian's a real bum for going to the SHOT SHOW in Orlando, but I'm sure he's going to give a full report in the next couple of days. Wonder if he even went to the Show? I bet he spent all his time on the beaches. You know how the chicks dig him ;))




Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 05:02:30 (ZULU)

Jaeger; Actually the plan was to see where the site would go without my pot stirring all the time. (Wife's suggestion). I guess the posts of the past few hours answer that question even to her satisfaction.

"Your not a Sniper anymore, why don't you leave it behind?" Fair question the Queen asked. We were attempting to make the "tape" for the non believers. "What the hell are we doing here? I don't even see the front sight clear anymore!" was my reply. I put down the 1911 still unfired... Loaded it, the camera and Glocks back into the Jeep and said to hell with it.  Somethings are best swept away with time. I guess, thats where I fit. Anyway still kicking barely but the flu almost got me, ya'll carry on. Interesting times are ahead.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 05:35:14 (ZULU)

Took the new Savage 112 (22-250) out today.  Even though it has  a 1/12" twist, it loves the 40 gr.  Consistintaly grouped around .5-.6 inches.  Not bad for an out of the box rifle, factory ammo, and a total FNG behind the trigger....

I have always been a fairly good shot, just never shot for groups until a couple years ago.  ALways just aimed at what I wanted to hit and shot it.  Now that I have to think about it, it's getting harder.

Off to bed, all have a good day.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 09:09:24 (ZULU)


That's some decent shootin stock rifle. Mine always liked the 40's better than the 55's.

Does anybody know how to contact a unit or group of troops in service? Mailing address, etc. for care packages and mail. If anyone has a son or daughter or whatever overseas hit me offline. Thanx,

Yote bate

Welcome back sir. Good to hear from you again. I tried to quit smokin once.... worst 20 minutes of my life. Some things that aren't good for ya might be worth quittin-but this place is therapuetic. :))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 10:53:11 (ZULU)


Is $1500.00 a good deal for a 40XB 300WM, late 60's NIB? Wood stock.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 11:12:56 (ZULU)

Know thine enemy !

Interesting Camo site.

Steve from New Joisey

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 14:08:36 (ZULU)

Quick optics question for you gents.  My only long range shooting experience is with the Leupold M3A.  Love the scope (mainly because it's what I am familiar with and I know it works).  I want to start getting back into competitive shooting but don't quite have the cash to purchase an M3 (or even a good used one) without putting the wife on the street corner for a few days.

I read the SC review (good review) about the Tasco Super Sniper SS10x42M and have done a little research on the web and most of what I saw seemed positive.  Do many of you have experience with this scope?  I'd tend to trust your reviews a little more than some of the "testimonials" on Tasco's site (or site's that sell Tasco products).  Is it reliable/accurate enough to allow me to effectively compete?  I know that Tasco had some bankruptcy problems and the scopes are on backorder.  I'm hoping I can get one prior to the ASC#2 match.  Any other scopes I should consider in the $400 price range?  I'm looking for a KISS mil-dot scope, paralax adjustment, easy/quick windage and elevation adjustment.

Once again thanks for your input,

Chris too

Chris Workman <>
Va Beach, VA, - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 14:18:06 (ZULU)


  Don't feel bad, I know exactly what your talking about. After I injured my goin muscle last year, an it took nealy 4 months to heal, I got the ultimatum from my wife. She said your 56yrs old, your not 18 anymore, and your time has come to quit trying to keep up with you son. I don't care if you want to go out and shoot but this B.S. of running all over hill and dale trying to keep up with kids a third of your age is going to stop!!!!

  Its really hard when you sit down and really think about it an reality hits you in the face. You finally realize that you aren't ever going to get any better and you "ARE" on the down hill side.

  You have to work you ass off just to keep from getting soft an turning into a couch patato. I am now faced with starting all over agian trying to get back into shape and realizing it will take me a long time to get back to even being close to where I was a year ago and thats not where I needed to be!!!

  I guess the T-shirt she gave me has a lot of truth to it,"THE OLDER I GET, THE BETTER I WAS". But then I like the one I had better, "OLD AGE AND TRECHERY WILL OVERCOME SKILL AND YOUTH"!!! Hope to see you guys at the SC shoot cuss I start training again this month!!(HA)

Pat <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 14:52:01 (ZULU)


If you're 56, and still running over hill and dale and keeping up with guys 1/3 your age,, then you're not old.  I'd lay cash money down you're in better shape than I, and I'm 29.  Stick with it man!!  

If you're 56, that would make the misses about 50-ish.  Just remind her that she's got a better chance of being killed by terrorists than getting re-married after 40,, so drop the ultimatums and go do what ya like ;)

Now,, I know how that would go over in my house. (I'd wake up with a steak knife in my chest) but hey,, it "could " work right??  ;)))Of course,, getting my ass beat to the groud in front of others,, by your misses would also be a humbling expirence ;))  Best I shut up now.... (((;

All of our best shooters are all over 50 except one.  I have a long way to go.


Chris <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 15:07:25 (ZULU)

Chris Workman..........TascoSS...............

Son, may God have mercy on your immortal done it now!

That being said,  you want one, I got one,  it's 300 bucks shipped, already has the butt ugly green/tan camo paint job..........replaced it with a USO.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 15:24:18 (ZULU)

Thanks Guys' but after this flu hit me it's more like couch marshmellow. I can't run anymore period, that's right about " the older I get the better I was." Whadayadalose! The short side of 60 looks pretty good to me even. Trouble is it's not been long ago that I was too young to know anything, now I'm too old to bother with. My heyday was about 20 minutes someday when I must have been doing something else. Back to the hole.  

Brogers <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 15:33:23 (ZULU)


 Thanks, that was my impression also. I know they do reticle work but I didn't think they did warranty work.


  She told me if I go back to Wyoming this year to the D&L shoot my "Stuff"(Not and exact quote) would be on the lawn when I got home(HA).

  This is my second marriage and shes 10yrs younger, but sometimes she thinks shes my mother. She is sure I will die of a heart attack out there. I told her if I don't keep working out I will die of one sooner.

 By the way I said "TRYING" to keep up with the young guns.(HA)

Pat <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 15:38:39 (ZULU)


There, that aught to catch everyone's eye reading the archives. Attention all newbies.... there is no compromise on scopes... cheap ones up and buy a quality scope, and yes, they are expensive.

Bill.  When you quit trying to keep up with the young guys, you will die.  Much better to have a heart attack at the D&L then pass spitting up pink frothy crap on your couch.  Stay in the game, stay young.  Retire and sit on your rump and you will be dead soon enough.  Seen it tens of thousands of far as I'm concerned, it is fact.

medicjim <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 15:50:52 (ZULU)


Wern't me with the LC load data, wish it had been.  When you heading North?

Stay safe


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 17:06:40 (ZULU)

Until last summer I’d spent most of my life just driving on.  I typically worked 50-60 hours a week and traveled 50% of the time.  I went to night school for ten years straight and made a habit of ignoring pain and fatigue.  I always figured only a pussy or a leg would ever quit anything.  After all pain is just weakness leaving the body, right?

Forty eight years of that kind of life style can take a toll on a guy and last summer the butcher’s bill came due.  Some of you might remember.

At first I figured I would just press on and ignore the pain.  That was S.O.P. for me.  It had to be a combination of jet lag and weird food.  It was just gas.  I’d be ok if I just took a couple of hours to catch my breath.  After all I was operating on an average of 6 hours sleep a night and hadn’t taken a break for almost a month in country.  I was just tired.

After a while I thought to myself, “This pain is killing me.”  (I found out later it was killing me.) So I got on the elevator at my hotel and went down to get some aspirin.  That’s when I saw myself in the mirror.  What I saw didn’t look good at all so I decided to toss in the towel.  I got my 23 year old interpreter named Jade and we went to the hospital. (No, she was not the cause.)

Sure enough, I was having a heart attack and I’d fought it so long that some irreparable damage had been done to my heart muscle.  A few weeks later I got home to the good old US of A and had two stints installed in my heart and today I feel 100%.  The truth is, I’ll never be 100% again and that’s tough to take.  Sometimes you just have to play the hand you get dealt.  I’m working out and doing my best to get and stay in shape but I realize I’ll never be what I once was but I’m here and that counts.

I spent about 20 minutes in the hospital that first night feeling pretty sorry for myself.  There I was full of tubes and wires, in no small amount of pain, 10,000 miles from home and a beautiful Chinese girl in the other bed watching my every move. (Jade would not leave my side for three days.)  I sure didn’t feel very manly right about then but I figured feeling sorry for my self didn’t contribute to the situation so I started planning.

The plan went something like this:

Step 1 – Get Better

Step 2 – Get Home

Step 3 – Get Over It

Step 4 – Get On with It

I’m well into step 4 now and am pretty happy to be here.  I may not be able to pass the APFT right now but I’m in formation saying, “Here First Sergeant!”

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 18:15:27 (ZULU)

Chris too,

        Tasco SS - like medic jim said! I bought one a few years ago. That was when they were gettihg good press. Any of you guys correct me if I'm mistaken about the following:

        It was rumored that Leupold was interested in getting out of the Military/LE market at the time. Tasco saw potential for a new market and had the SS designed and built (by somebody - they don't build - they market) to present to the Military for evaluation. It was a quality scope given the cost limitations, and this first run was the one that everyone in the private sector evaluated and gave good reviews to.

        Leupold stayed in the game however, and the Ultra's became MK4's, became available on a large scale to the public, and won the Military contract. Tasco started selling the SS on the civilian market partly to recoup the money spent developing it for the Military competition, and sales took off - 1/3 the price of the MK4 or the B&L TAC 10 - why not?

        Tasco had to cheapen the SS to keep up with rising costs, and that's where it hit the fan. The one that I bought came apart internally after 200rds. through my M21! Many others have similar storys. I sold mine after it came back from Tasco in FL. I wonder if there's any warranty repair station for Tasco after the bankruptcy? Even if another company bought their name, remember what happened to Redfield and Weaver!

        IMHO a caveat should be added to any reviews of this scope that were written and printed about the first generation examples. The second generation SS scopes are a disappointment. Buy only quality optics. I'm constantly amazed when I see $1000+ rifles leaving the gunshop sporting $99 scopes with $15 mounts!

'yote bait,


           I kind of figured that you'd post when and if you were ready. Glad to see a word or two from ya! Stick around, it's not the same without you. Take care of yourself.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 18:32:33 (ZULU)

Looks like the inspectors found "something".... this is via

Steve~hockeyref <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 19:01:48 (ZULU)

I second what MedicJim said.   I have also seen it many, many times.  An outstanding number of people die within a few months of retirement.   The trick is to not stop when you retire.  Don't just go sit on the couch, watch tv, eat potato chips and watch espn.  Also a vast majority of the self inflicted gsw's I see are people over the age of 65.  Enjoy life to the fullest, as someone famous once said "You are likely to regret only the things you never did, not the things you actualy did do."

Bob H

Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 19:12:08 (ZULU)

Kevin; you've done good man. Your workin too hard story is mine too.

I got the long term damage too. But you got more will than me I think. 6 Weeks after my first one I helped drag a 300lb mulie about 300 yards and was stalking Antelope in 104 temp. One day the demands just caught up with me. They hadn't had the right repairs the first time and I was back for the steel plumbing in 6 weeks. I could have gone inside at work but I went back to the line. Different attitude as to what I'd do and what I wouldn't. I quit the high towers cause nobody wanted to haul me down. Getting back is the hard part. They give you all these drugs to slow down your heart rate and keep you down and then say get out there and go like always. Like having lead in your boots.

Thanks to all you Medic's! We've got many good ones here. Your advice is always appreciated more than you'd believe. Especially you Jim. Been trying to wind down some but I'd never go the rockin chair route cause I've seen what you preach with friends of mine. The Queen kind of got my attention cause that's the first she ever tried to slow me down or get to realize my mortality. It's just the extreme heat and cold that's the worst now. Had a heat stroke last year and it's been worse than the Coronary problems. My air conditioning just don't work anymore. Just a little hard to get used too.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 19:43:19 (ZULU)

If any of you lurkers are from the York,PA area please send me an email off line. I'd like to gather some intel. Thanks.

danny mull <>
akron, ohio, - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 21:23:56 (ZULU)

Hey Jody:    

         For a review of shotguns, go to and look at the article they have posted there.  It's titled "Speed Shooting" by Patrick Kelley and is taken from Front Sight magazine of the US Practical Shooting Ass'n.  Good reports on A-5s and Winchester Super X2 for speedy followup shots.  Remington and Benelli?  Read and weep.....ah, I mean, decide for yo'self.

Jerry S. <>
Frozen tundra, MN, USA - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 23:21:59 (ZULU)

Hey TEAMMATES, who all is going to the SHOT SHOW? Shoot me an email and we can hook up.

Heard from the MilDot Master already.


brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 23:25:37 (ZULU)

Bolster's EBAY camo search results for 1/16/03:

First, this is a tad too shiney for woodland camo. However, based on certain other attributes, the shineyness could be overlooked.

This one really captured my attention. FULL camo coverage is now possible.

At second glance, this one really has me concerned! Note the location of the seller. Could it be that Rod has branched out into other profit centers?

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 23:42:27 (ZULU)

Glad to see you back, Mister 'Bate!  Errr, that sounded funny...Let me re-phrase; You're all thru being coy, 'Yote?  Hmmm...still not soundin' right...

Awww hell, glad to see yer voice again!

Optics:  Tasco costs 3 bills.  Loopy M3 LR costs 7.5 bills.  Seems to me the savings account only needs slightly less than (errr, more than) twice the wait to achieve optical nirvana.  Standing pat for a couple of extra pay checks is worth it.  The M3 LR will take a good beating, better than a tasco; and only the truly brutal need the MK4's durability.  

Top (or First Sergeant if yer not a CSM or above)picked up a bag of parts that look vaguely like an A2 varient mousey-gun.  I went with him, and accidentally ordered a bag of parts that will resemble a CAR-15.  Ha!  Mousers; some assembly required.  Both for the cost of a Bushy.  DPMS parts mostly (I went with an A1 upper though).  I couldn't stop myself.  The money literally jumped outta my wallet before I could stop it...

Now what'll I tell the wife?  She's gonna drop a brick over this...

Now for the funny part:  Top looks like a monkey humpin a football trying to stuff springs into the trigger group.  He is cussin' a blue streak.  If I had a dime for every "flier" that popped off his desk, I'd be rich.  I grabbed an exploded parts diagram...I'm waiting for the right level of frustration before I give it to him...Baaaawhawwhawww!

edited for math

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 23:50:31 (ZULU)

All this talk of coronary stuff, makes me wonder if i shouldn't adjust my life style some, it gets pretty sleepless during hunting season( which is 10 months per year) i've had many weeks where ive gotten by on 12 - 18 hours sleep per week, staying awake all night waiting for pigs, working 12 + hours per day,night shifts driving almost 400km to and from work, DIY until 04.00 hrs.lots of coffee and red bull. I am actualy looking forward to the end of hunting season( end Jan) although we can still hunt imature pigs all year, i think i'll give em a rest.Maybe i should quit hard charging while i still can.

Ref the cyst, copy that, not a dangle berry, a german Navy mate of mine had one of them cysts, he had a gaping hole in his rear, about where a tail would be if we had one, after they cut the golf ball size thing out. He didn't respond to my what caused it questions, and derogatory comments on navy personell ( marines exepted of course).

Paul C, got an email and i replied to you buddy.

Scopes, be prepared to spend at least as much as you spend on a rifle on a decent scope(unless you can buy a rifle for $300, then prepare to spend 4x that much)

So whats all these NXS problems i keep hearing about? and am i hearing whispers about a S&B that will suit nicely.

News on this side of the pond.

Scotland yard busted some immigrants who apparently had some chemical weapon making stuff in a flat in London, these arrests lead to a raid on a house in Manchester, during this raid a Policeman was stabbed to death by a north African immigrant, he and a few others are bieng held under a few things, prevention of terrorism act is one.

A UK Farmer who shot a burgular and killed the sod was tried for murder, the charge was reduced to man slaughter and the poor guy got 5 years, the burgulars accomplice, injured in the burgulary, is now suing the farmer for dammages, this makes me f%#@ ing sick, these low life scumbags get a free ticket to break into anywhere they want, and no one can do nuthin'to stop em. one man stands up for his freedom and he is imprisoned, there was a day when an Englishman's home was his castle,

Bought a jeep today, wondering where to mount the quad 50 cals, ah damn we can't have them here, i forgot.

I saw many sandy coloured army trucks comming from the direction or the garrison spray shop today, civilian employees are working lots of overtime, things are gearing up. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 01:19:44 (ZULU)

Joe M,

If yer feeling less than sadistic, tell top to assemble the lower inside a dry cleaners bag.  Ya can see what yer doing and it will catch all the springs..........less chasing that way.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 01:30:52 (ZULU)


I still fly my Flag every day since 9/11.


Joe Udelhofen <>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 03:09:26 (ZULU)

The Shuttle is up. Standby.

Brogers <>
- Friday, January 17, 2003, at 03:10:35 (ZULU)

300RUM press question......i reload mine on an rcbs "junior" its a lil time consuming but it works its a smaller press than the rock so it shouldnt be a prob. using a rock.....

marc <>
- Friday, January 17, 2003, at 03:12:05 (ZULU)


All this talk of having heart attacks/surviving heart attacks is NOT good for me to hear.

Three years ago my doctor told me that's where I was headed. Left Hewlett-Packard and took a job in Law Enforcement, to make a long story short.

Stress lowered and love my job. Now just have to work on the getting in shape and dropping excess poundage.

Have never had a heart problem and only have mild blood pressure issues. Get in shape and lose the pounds and they'll probably go away.

Had a message from a friend. He may attend the SC match if all works out. Hope so...

Time to saddle up...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 03:59:03 (ZULU)

Brogers, ????  Could you elaborate on the shuttle thing, I mean I saw that Mel Gibson movie too, but he is an anti-gun puke, ok off subject  just wondering if I missed something...

Pete L, I heard the story about the farmer who shot that "poor defenseless kid", it seems it was not the first time they had broke into his house and he had had it.  Don't worry, with the way lawsuits are in this country it won't be long before we can't defend our homes over here, I mean shit, went on a call a few years ago, guy got t-boned at about 70 mph, took 20 min to cut him out of his truck.  Had a head injury, was not making sense and totaly out of it.  Put him in the helicopter, took him to the nearest trauma center (80 miles away and in a different state).  He lived but when he got the bill for the copter ride he sued us for kidnapping and transporting him across state lines.  Now we could have fought and won this suit based on implied consent but out insurance company settled out of court for $50,000.  I guess proving we were right would have cost more than just paying him off.  These lawsuits piss me off more than anything else.

Speaking of lawsuits, we knew it was going to happen, but it is official.  The families of the victoms of the "sniper" shootings in the DC area filed a class action suit agenst Bushmaster and the gun store who sold the rifle to the two poor souls who were comanded by the gun to shoot all those people.  Some guy with the last name Brady made the statement today...  hmm  More people using the death of innocent people to push there twisted views on us, I think I see a pattern here.  

Rant off


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 07:22:26 (ZULU)

Pete L

Those whispers from S&B wouldn't be a 3-12x40ish PMII in a 30mm tube with mildot(mildot2 would be better) and a BCD and adj parallax, would it? (Illuminated reticle option wouldn't hurt either)That would be my idea of heaven. It would be a damned fine hunting scope too.

On the Algerians, you left out the bit about the fact that the flat in London and the beans they were extracting the Ricin from was being paid for by the British tax payers, because they were asylum seekers. No wonder half of eastern europe and the middle east is heading for England if their friends are telling them to come on over because they will give you free food and somewhere to live, and you don't even have to work for it, and they won't even lock you up unless you burgle somewhere TWICE!

There's a lot to be said for holding centres for asylum seekers so we can verify who they really are first. If they're being persecuted in their country and want to come her I don't have a problem with that as long as they have something to offer scociety and are willing to work for it. But under the current world situation, let's be damn sure who they are before we let them in. I'll get off my soap box now....

Mark D

Mark Dougan <>
London, UK - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 08:13:00 (ZULU)

Gooch-  Just got my latest Police Marksman.  Another good read...I'm looking forward to the next installamnt...good work.

Pete L- Congrats on the Jeep.  If's it got a 4.0 I have a few oil filters, an oil pan gasket and an 02 sensor left over from my old Jeep...I'll send them to you if you want, you might need them =p

Chris too-Tasco scopes...when I was getting interested in this "hobby" I got one of the Tasco SS scopes and liked it.  It didn't take long to realize my error.  With time it started to track less and less accurately until one day...poooff no more working at all.  Now all my sticks have either Loopys or S&B (Pete =)  Wait and get the best scope you can possibly afford you will never be sorry.

CMP- I just went to the CMP web sight for the first time in a little  while.  Did they quit selling rifle parts?  I didn't see any listed anywhere.

IOR scopes-Does anybody have a contact point for IOR repairs.  My buddy recently gave me an 8x56 "Tactical" that has a damaged (bent) elvation adjustment assembly.  I have tried writeing the only repair center I could find listed on the net, in Ogden Utah, and no response.  Depending on the cost I wouldn't mind getting it fixed to use as trade material.  


Over all a bad day at the range.  The flu was kicking, I was still mad about having another getting older birthday, and I just couldn't hit the broad side of a wide barn.  My finger had a mind of it's own today and I just kept jerking the shots off to the left....I guess that makes me a Jerk Off =)

Good news is a guy I work with has a Springfield Armory M1A "loaded" rifle.  He has less than 500rds logged and it has 3 mags, a Harris S bi-pod, MRT sling, 2 GI cleaning kits, a SKB case and about 300 rds of ball ammo.  He just accepted my $900 takes all offer.  Yahoo for my team and god bless divorce sales.

Everybody stay safe,

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, SoCal, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 08:18:32 (ZULU)

SHOT SHOW:   Marty and I will be at the Shot Show.  Our booth is straight across the isle from the U.S.M.C.,    G.A.Precision, Badger, Armament Technology and the Corps all right next to each other.  Sounds like a good place for all the Roster Hogs to meet at 1200 daily.  

George Out      

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <>
Kansas City , MO, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 08:43:44 (ZULU)

One of my employees came to the house yesterday. His wife beat breast cancer a few years back. 'Bout a month ago one knee went bad, severe pain. Tests came back yesterday. Less than a year, if she starts chemo this week. We need your prayers.



John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 10:49:18 (ZULU)

Words of wisdom from the Alleghenies;


Outa here

Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 13:18:53 (ZULU)

All this heart trouble talk makes me feel like having 3 egss over easy and a 1/2 lb of thick forest bacon.   That will get the blood flowing smoother.   PT so good.   Hooooah

Question:  My RCBS power pro case trimmer has just twirled it's last case and is ready for the crapper.   Can anyone using the Gracey or Dillon 1200BT provide a little feedback.


TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 14:10:12 (ZULU)


 If your talking about Dillons power trimmer that fits your press with their die, I have one. I use it for .223s and my .308s and love it. Its messy but quick and does a nice job. I hate hooking a shop vac up to it, to noisey. So I just trim away and then clean up afterwards.

Pat <>
- Friday, January 17, 2003, at 14:33:06 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Got to: for detailed explanations and pics for assemblying the AR15 lower receiver.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 14:57:13 (ZULU)


I don't know if the CMP is still selling parts.  I'd be surprised if they weren't.  I know they were swamped ever since they got th e'03's in and they are finally starting to get caught up.  I just got my second Garand on Tuesday (HRA).  One more plug for the CMP.  For those of you who don't already have an M1, get one.  They are a wonderful and fun piece of American history.

Later all,


Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 15:47:24 (ZULU)


Gracey good!


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 16:29:31 (ZULU)


More BS from the Brady crowd.  What a crock of s#!^

Pissed-off Caison OUT!

Caison <>
USA!!! - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 16:29:50 (ZULU)

Joe s, click my name below for a link to another firearms dealer in Ogden, Ut.  I know this isn't CMP, but the firearms industry is a small world and Ogden isn't that big, they might know something.  I have delt with these guys in the past, nice people.

P.S.:  From what I've seen they have prety good prices on stuff people on this site might be interested in.


Robert H <>
Ne , Ca, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 17:15:28 (ZULU)

I am home and willl be seeing a dotor later today..


mike miller <>
ca, - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 17:51:06 (ZULU)


  Joe S. the CMP is still selling parts. On the front page of the site, go to SALES. Then click on SHOPPING CART, that will take you to the rifle parts section.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 18:10:12 (ZULU)


Good to see you made it home reletively safe and sound.  Best of luck with the Doc today.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 19:27:35 (ZULU)

I am looking for a converter to convert the male dovetail on a Corsak laser (looks like what I presume is a European 11mm dovetail, slightly narrower than the U.S. 3/8" dovetail like those on a .22 rifle by about 1mm or so) to a female weaver mount, so that it can fit on a weaver rail. I think some things for a 3/8" dovetail might work for this slightly narrower one, as I tried a 3/8" unitized scope mount I had laying around on the Corsak dovetail. It worked, although the mount had a lot of contraction room to crank down.

Any ideas? Help!

William M. <>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 19:43:54 (ZULU)

Caison' me too!  The shyster Lawyers sue the perps, the gun shop and the factory. They bring the facts that someone's been injured to the floor and nobody is denying it, somebody's been hurt. The figures are there and nobody opposes the fact that liability is owed. Then due to the fact there's nobody but the Factory and shop that have any kind of insurance or money to be had they try to shift the liability over from the perps to them. This has been tried before and hopefully the system won't fail. But there's the tobacco thing and some people get it confused. If a suit like this is valid then all auto makers, and whiskey companies are liable too. Just another example of a good system headed for ruin. Whdaya expect in a country where a Doctor is afraid to deliver a baby? We need reforms on liability limits but this issue can't be legislated. Unfortunately it will be tried over and over!

Brogers <>
- Friday, January 17, 2003, at 20:27:53 (ZULU)

>>>>....Had a head injury, was not making sense and totaly out of it.  Put him in the helicopter, took him to the nearest trauma center (80 miles away and in a different state).  He lived but when he got the bill for the copter ride he sued us for kidnapping and transporting him across state lines.  Now we could have fought and won this suit based on implied consent but out insurance company settled out of court for $50,000....<<<<<<<<

Reminds me of a guy that we extricated from a Corvette that was doing approx. 100 mph+ before he turned it over and it came to a rest upside down with the cab centered on the boulder. When we got there, he was on his cell phone to his wife, telling her that he was gonna be a little late???????? After getting him loaded into the ambulance and stabilizing him, we unloaded him to a waiting medivac and it was then that he demanded to know from all around him (that was trying to save his ass) who was it that cut his pants?????? Seems that he had a very expensive pair of ghucci britches or something like that.

Days like that make you wonder....why even try? But...most of the time it doesn't happen that way.



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 21:22:10 (ZULU)


picked this up off another site.  Guys got an Urban cammo McMillan A2 stock with the pillars installed for Rem action, $250.  If I needed it.... ;))


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 21:33:46 (ZULU)

George Gardner

Your web site is not working.  It shows to be loading but quits.


SC #10

Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 22:03:00 (ZULU)

Had a guy quite literally wrap a Ford Fairlane around a pecan tree once (Pecan trees do not move).

The guy was alive but totally wasted and totally encased and immobile in stretched and torn sheet metal. Car is smoking. Just happened. He's crazy looking ... wasted ... wide eyed. His head turned back over his left shoulder, immobile, looking upwards at me. All he can move is his eyes, darting back and forth wildly.

I run up all concerned and shit "Hey buddy, it's okay, it's okay. We're gonna get you out"

He replies "F$#@CK You M&$CK^$#CKER S*&CK MY &^%$# D$#CK!

Ohhhhhhhh, okay. He doesn't like the cops. (little devil pops up on my shoulder).


I grab a cigarette from my rookie (I don't smoke).

Anybody got a light? I proceed to light up and he screams

Heeeeey man!, No!, Please!, No! ... Don't  

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggghhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

heh heh  ...  psyche.


brian k. sain <>
- Friday, January 17, 2003, at 22:11:14 (ZULU)

Sir Brian,

That's some sadistic sh!t,, I like it ;))

You get to send any pills through that AI yet?


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 22:16:38 (ZULU)

Not yet Dude.

Stacey Blankenship is doing a little T/E with it for me. I'll give you a shout.

Chomping at the bit here though.

Later holmes,


brian k. sain <>
- Friday, January 17, 2003, at 22:26:39 (ZULU)

>>>>>OH NO! GUYS, I SMELL GAS!!! HIS TANK IS RUPTURED !!! (it wasn't)

I grab a cigarette from my rookie (I don't smoke). Anybody got a light? I proceed to light up and he screams<<<<<<< are CRAZY!!! am I. I'm writing this one down with another twist to it ;)) HELLO DISPATCH!! Cancel the firetrucks, this guys already a gonner (while pretending to hold key down on radio) ;))



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 22:27:24 (ZULU)


T&E,, That's Stacey's idea of de-flowering your new stick ;))  Better watch him,, LOL....

BTW,, have you spoke with JW about his new PSS?


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Friday, January 17, 2003, at 22:29:30 (ZULU)


 If your are using an older netscape--it won't load George's site (at least not on mine).  So, to visit George or PERSCOM, I launch exploder..errr, explorer.  Try that.  Worked for me.

Top now is the proud daddy of a functioning A2 varient DPMS AR15.  He was less than amused by my diagram hold-out, but his sense of humor overcame his lack a aptitude (damn lucky for me, heheh).  Once he figured out the order of insertion of the parts, it was a five minute job.  Make that a two hour and five minute job, thanks to my little joke.

Nicole is continuing her success against her cancer.  And, at least for now, she has a fuzzy sun-screen of hair coming back.  All those prayers are gettin' results!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 00:03:28 (ZULU)

Back from Doc, torn ligaments, broken bone and dislocated knee cap.

Will heal in three months.


MikeMIller <>
CA, - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 01:10:55 (ZULU)


Sorry to hear about that.  On the bright side, it'll give ya time to comb out the blonde ghillie ;))

Hope you're feeling better soon mang.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 01:25:25 (ZULU)

Guys, I know retail but what is a good price for a stripped Eagle Arms AR10 lower??   I case I make the local show...




Bill Moore <>
Goodview, Va, USA USA USA - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 01:36:35 (ZULU)


 Yours wins.  I am unworthy to claim a knee injury, because I merely did a ligament.  Once the initial torture was complete (oh, yeah...LT Witherspoon...ohmy,my, my, my! Blond, beautiful, and sadistic as Insain), I lived for three more months on a Lifecycle.  First APFT after coming off the bike was a 2 mile run at 12:30.  I credit my continued career to that silly conptraption!  It may be a long way off, but don't listen to the Doc if he tells ya your gonna lose anything.  Start convincing yourself that it ain't nuthin' now, and when the rehab starts, attack!  Heheh...I remember the lady-patrons at the gym just walking out as I dialed up 24 minutes at level 12 and started growling and I looked as psychotic as Brian's Fairlane pilot...but the thing is, it worked.  Lately, I know it was injured, but it's been some 15 years and alot of miles...

You can beat it and you'll be back moving faster, better, longer.  And what the hey, a quick prayer for ya is on the way!  And may your therapist be as heavenly as mine:o)) You'll especially dig the way she'll hold your inner thigh as she checks range of motion...uhhh,

On the other hand, dang!  I hope it ain't a dude, undude! Heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 02:24:09 (ZULU)

Little Nichole makes me ashamed I complain about anything. IF I were only half that tough.

Undude; that one has got to hurt! I always think I've got one more jump in me. Maybe not!  

Brogers <>
- Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 04:48:48 (ZULU)

Undude,  Glad to see you back in one peice.  Take care of yourself. I can't wait to here the story.   You screw up the knee too much and you get the Titaniun/Polycarbonate Plastic ones like I have.   No fun at all as you know from our discussions.

I got my last physical ailment fixed Thursday with a double discectomey of th L4/5 and L5/S1.  Doc took out bulges the size of a large mans thumb.  Said the nerves were squeezed like running over a water hose with a car.  I can feel my left leg again and the best part is the disc is growing back where it was bulged out to some degree. Doc thinks they will compleely fill in. He says I will be back to work by end of Feb., which means the Badlands is a definate go.  I was prepared for the worst so these results are like a new lease on life, plus I got my first all nights sleep in three months.  In the last 2 years I have had a knee replacement, a cancer scare with a petuitary gland, and this back injury, and I tell yeah, it really has changed my focus on life and what is important.

Kevin, I am so glad you made it with your heart attack, usually when you ignor those things is when they do you in.  Take care of your self.  As we get older it becomes more important that we listen to our bodies because we are not 20 years old any more. Middle age is supposted to be the point where experience makes up for balls to the walls gung-ho-ness.  I thinka s we get older it's more important than ever to take vitamins and Supliments to give our bodies the building bloks wee need.  Because lets face it, we cannot eat the amount of food we used to so we have to get the nutrition somewhere. Doc tells me I need to take at least 3000 mg of calcium a day just to stay even witht he bone/muscle needs.  I take those asprin as well.

Steve, glad to here your good news.  Lokking forward to meeting you and learning alot in June.

Joe M -  Going through what you are with Nichole would devistate me.  The updates you give us are very welcome so keep them coming.  One thing I have learned in the past year is tha the prayer list in my Bible takes a while to get through.  Kepp your head down on deployment.  I wish I could get in on this one.

Sinister.  God speed and come back with your boys in one piece, and with some badguy kills to show for it.  I definately want to hook up at Perry  ASAP.

B Rogers - You got to keep going.  We all do because when you sit on the couch it is a deathg sentence.

Wes -  Been there, done that, and have the shirt on the stressful job change.  I had a large residential remodeling company and sold it this past year.  Working 100 hours a week and haveing to pay 20 employees plus trades and suppliers every month, and the pressure to collect the billings really got to be too much.  Did OK when I sold it and landed a job with a growning company building upscale tract homes.  IT's fun, I work with some wonderful people, and I get a paycheck every two weeks and I can forget it when I leave the subdivision.  Three guys I knew from college work there so it's all the more enjoyable. And their is nothing more enjoyable than seeing the joy in the customers eyes when they pull up to their new home for the final walk through, and see the kids picking out rooms. Alot of our customers are from China because Phiser ( spelling) Pharmasuitical is big in the Ann Arbor market.  To here the stories from these people about the poverty that some grew up in, and to be able to come here and buy $300,000 homes, cars, and food  really makes me appreciate how good we have it here.  I talked with the father of one of my customers once, and he told me it's the first time in his life he has not had DIRT floors and non-wood stove heat  where he lived.

Bolt - Any word on Bravo?????  How's he and his rug rat doing.

Lito -  I am finally going to get My AR-50 going, so IF can drop you an Email in the next day or so I would appreciate your guidance.  I have the setup info when we talked a wear ago, but I need to get ammo and have not found a source.

Well good night all, and take care

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 06:27:48 (ZULU)

Bill Moore -  Check out  Dave has the lowest prices on the net, and it should serve as a good guide for you.  The lowers come several ways. Stripped, complete, and complete w/ national match trigger.  If you can't find one Dave has some on order, just Email him and get added to the list.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 06:33:04 (ZULU)

Hey all you new guys and gals: don’t rile up the Hogs (and Saber-toothed Boars) without doing your homework. Consult the Archives and hot tips first. It is an absolute treasure trove of useful info. I wish I had the Archives on CD, so I could consult it off line and at will( I don't have the gear to burn it myself) Doing the work to find the answer yourself will make the answer stick. It will lead you to questions you previously didn't know enough to ask. finally it will improve your research skills. Yes , you need research skills if you want to shoot well. People are often judged, not by what they know, but by the questions they ask.  Asking good questions could gain you a mentor. Asking thoughtless un-examined questions can get you labeled as a lazy, whining, wanna-be or worse a "sphincter".  Some of the guys here are professional teachers and experts in their fields, some of them are Hunters Of Gunmen from way back (I think we have a Hopolite Peltist on the roster).  They don't have to answer, they choose to. I consider myself  a "PFC (Promotable)"  around here, but I know the value of Lito's Newspaper  (or the HOG bites of others). If you are fortunate to receive the guidance offered with that swat, you have been deemed correctable. You have not been discarded.  If you've done your homework think about how you phrase your question. A lot of questions tossed back and forth by regulars are not "how do I do- X " type questions. They are asking fellow journeymen and masters to share their opinions, observations and experiences. Listen to what they ask. Now, go to the Archives and look up my post on the "Mess Hall".  Yes,  that is a homework assignment. All exempt personnel already know who you are.

BOAR - Been Out And Really Shot.  (this group of snipers, and master gunmen know who they are. If you watch carefully you can spot them)

saber-toothed- "long of tooth", old, experienced, Been there, done that.

Other Topics:

Bill Rogers,

There you are! I thought you were on some sort of stalking exercise. I guessed right! I was going to stop by and see if the coyotes finally got you. I'll hit you with an e-mail in the next few days.

Joe M,

You should be in Psy-ops or Tradoc,  not flying loose formations of rivets. I suggest Psy-ops because your humor is a strategic asset. The targeted personnel would be either terminally amused or terminally confused. I suggest Tradoc because of your unorthodox, high speed teaching methods. You obviously intended to make the Sargent-in-question a better soldier by helping him master one of the tools of his chosen profession.  By your description he quickly  mastered the " exploded" diagram (parts all over), even though you kept it from him. What he seems to have really needed is the "parts-all-together-and working" diagram. Prayers for your little one.

Mike M,

What was the" method of injury " (i.e. how'd ya do it). I ask as an EMT, Who morbidly studies these things for teaching purposes. Hit me off line if you want.

Peter L,

Please keep telling us about your pig hunting adventures.

My spouse is driven to fits of laughter over what she refers to as "Peter's Piggy Papers"  She actually wants me to cut and paste the Archived installments into a word document. If I do I'll send you a copy. I think it's hysterical how amused she gets over your posts. She Reads them aloud like a "propa foot-ball announcer ".

Jody Calhoun,

Do you have Kipling's "Gunga Din" hanging on your wall? You should.


Drop me an e-mail if you want to meet a fellow rosterfarian (Me), I frequently work in NYC.



No jokes from me. I've treated abscesses in the field, mine and others(Now that I think about it, I'm going to put in for a promotion to LANCE-corporal). Infections are no joke; they hurt like hell and can be life threatening. At the very least they can put you out of action for a while. I just received a letter from a close friend who is a Marine platoon leader. They are Deployed to a sandy place. Well anyhow, he has three men down with boils caused by filth. I'm told this trio wore their dirt as a macho badge in spite of NCO intervention. Now they are combat ineffective. I've spent months at a shot in the backcountry and worked hard to avoid the problems these idiots looked for. I know your condition isn't caused by lack of personal maintenance. It just hit a rant button with me and I just had to play Sniper Country seven degrees of separation. Pretty god leap- "Bolt's butt to fieldcraft via abscess";3 steps.

Note to all: keep as clean and dry as possible in the field, you will have enough to worry about with out looking for trouble with infection. Blisters, salt sores, constipation, the runs, bad water, sunburn, frostbite, insects, fatigue, weather and oh yeah people trying to kill you.

Rant mode off and sorry for the "feature length"  post,


web crittenden <>
- Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 08:23:03 (ZULU)

Anybody have a valid e-mail address for Dick Thomas at Premier Reticles??? The "Contact" e-mail on Premiers web-site has bounced twice??

Thanks Guys


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 13:53:41 (ZULU)

Match Confusion

   It has been a small problem so far, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.  There have been a couple instances where people have contacted me regarding ASC# 2 in WEST VIGINIA, when they were really trying to sign up for the SC match in OKLAHOMA. Perhaps it's because of the shared letters, I don't know.  There are two unrelated matches, except for the fact that a large number of you are planning to attend both. It would be a shame to plan a trip and perhaps vacation time around one set of dates only to realize that you were locked into dates that are a month too early or too late depending on which match you thought you were signed up to attend. Hope this helps.



rod hansen <>
- Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 15:15:42 (ZULU)

Rod, thanks for the clarification!!!

GUYS, the Sniper Country Match, to help eliminate any further confusion, will in the future, like starting NOW be called:

SniperQuest 2003

That is now the official name!!!

Look for a serious up-date on the homepage sometime this week-end!!!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 15:38:04 (ZULU)


Glad your back Mike, and in one piece. Even if the pieces are a bit jumbled. Get well...what's the prognosis?

Blew my knee out yesterday. No permanent damage...just muscle structure. Hurts like hell, so I can imagine what your's feels like, Undude.

I'm "combat deadlined" for at least a week and then a re-eval from my doctor and possible trip to an orthopedic specialist.

Seems like we need to change the name of the site from SC to MC (Medical Country). Could it be we ain't the spring chickens we once were?

Will spend some time out in the shop finishing the stock on my .300 mag long range rifle and a few sit down projects.

Brian...nice trick with the prick in the steel taco shell. Shoulda lit up his life for real. Of course I'm the guy stumping for the use of dogs and/or flame throwers for cell extractions...;-)

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 15:39:55 (ZULU)

Joe M. & others...

I am using Internet Explorer V.6.  I have successfully loaded and visited George's site in the past.  However, here of late, it indicates it is loading, completes and that's it.

I also sent him an email at the 10Xxxx, etc. address and it bounced.



Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 17:13:28 (ZULU)

Guys appreciate the concern. You are all great guys. Bottom line is I wont say how I was hurt. Some things need to be left alone. This is one of them. I am just lucky to be back. No great tactics got me home just a desire to see my kids again and basically walking on this thing no matter how much it hurt.

Wes sorry to hear about you knee. I hope it heals soon.

Everyone take care.


Mike MIller <>
Ca, - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 18:20:42 (ZULU)

The family and I went to the recruit training camp nearby yesterday to see a young mates passout parade,he's now officially an infantry soldier in the Oz army.Damn proud to see all those kids off their arses doin somethin worthwhile.The lad is goin to cop some stirring at church today for not scoring the marksmanship prize:)

Found a gun mag in town with an article on the armys "new" 50 cal sniper rifle,ai aw,big heavy bitch,that might be why snipers work in pairs, to carry the heavy bastard when no-one is looking :)

Get well soon to all the injured hogs.



Gavan Willis <>
- Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 20:34:57 (ZULU)

Guys I KNOW this isn't the place to ask this BUT:

I'm in immediate and I do mean immediate need of a Remington SA receiver perferably with a .308 bolt or equivalent. I don't need barrel, stock or anything but the receiver! No DM's guys!

This is VERY IMPORTANT and I'm on a short deadline !

Contact me off Roster!!



Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 20:59:04 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SniperQuest 2003<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Page is now open!!!

Check it out!!!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 21:07:47 (ZULU)

When and Where is the match in OKlahoma?

David Whitson <>
Plano, TX, - Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 21:38:56 (ZULU)

TIPS for ASC#2{the West Va. match}

  Be able to set up, mil, and dial your dope quickly..

  Know your holds out to three hundred yds or a bit farther, time may be a factor and dialing may not be an efficient option.

  Plan on having to reload under time pressure.

  Multiple shots { quick bolt manipulation} may be required.

  Bring writing materials.

  Positions! Yep, there is something besides prone!

  Hope for better weather than last year, bring a good attitude and plan on having fun, AND bring your rabbits' foot for luck in the raffle Sat. night..Somebody is going home with a new stick!!!!!!!!! 1 in 30 odds aint bad!!


   What goes around comes around...

   Sold a BL2 Beretta shotgun to the wife of a State Trooper friend of mine so she could surprise him with it for Christmas.  Guy had been hounding me about it for years and thought he'd never get it, as I didn't really want to sell it.  The good news is I had  two of 'em, so I let one go.  The BL2 is the only 18" factory made over and under Beretta ever built and this guy had no idea we were conspiring to get it to him.  My buddy Rob{not Rod} and I were having great fun at this guys expense since he had no idea..Saw him at the Academy just prior to Xmas and when he asked about the gun, as he always did, I told him it was still gathering dust in the gun room.  A hoot indeed, as his wife already had the gun wrapped up.

  Little did I know that the Queen had contacted Rob about what to get me: something I really wanted but wouldn't buy myself.  All the while we were plotting the shotgun deal, Rob was LHAO because he knew What my wife was planning,,,Knowing that I had a sizable chunk of cash comming in from the Beretta deal, the Queen gave me a box of microwave popcorn with an envelope enclosed.  Inside was a bunch of cash and a page torn out of the Dakota Arms brochure with a note scribbled on it to order one at the SHOT Show!!  In checking the Dakota web site I found out prices were going up after the 1st of the year so I called and ordered a Model 10 single shot over the phone..Caliber, 250 Savage, Case colored receiver and rings, XX Claro, Delivery in June!!!! The ultimate whitetail whacker and walking varminter.. What goes around  comes around, I guess. God bless the Queen, as they say!

  To all you injured/crippled up Hogs, I repeat, Getting older aint for sissies.  You youngsters take note; your day will come.

  Outa here




Markwell <>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 00:36:33 (ZULU)

Bobby,  Will Badlands have  the ranges open on June 5th to get the lay of the land?  

Sarge,  for the singles do we pair up amongst ourselve or are you going to assign teams?    What are we going to need for ammo, etc.


Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 00:44:35 (ZULU)

OK we'll get a "General Info" thing set up on the SniperQuest 2003 page but for now:

Bobby will team up any singles as we get the applications in, if you have someone you DON'T want teamed with let him know.

Ammo - at least 200 rds of rifle and 100 rds of handgun.

As for the handgun semi or wheel gun can be used without problems. IF for some reason you don't have a handgun we'll see what we can do...should be no problem. Minimum on the handgun is .38/9mm maximum is .45 ACP NO magnums!

Well try to post other useful information on the Match page as soon as we can put it together.


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 02:34:22 (ZULU)

Undude!' we weren't gonna ask! No way!

Critter; Ya, M' around anytime! The flu bug has had me down but I'm livin as of a while ago. Been keepin my head down too.

Brogers <>
- Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 02:44:17 (ZULU)


An update: Our errant .308 gas gunner is OK...traded e-mails with him yesterday. Still having to maintain a low profile 'cuz it ain't over yet...'nuff said.

Had an interesting phone call from an Oregon ARNG Sniper/Trainer of my acquaintance. Seems they just got their first shipment and range time with the new M-118LR. He wasn't shooting, as he was running the line. Said it was "obvious" the new ammo was shooting better and the guys really like it. The old stuff was M-118 for god's sake. A 175 Sierra should shoot better than an .30 cal FMJBT machine gun bullet!

We also set a time to get together with a little "extra" ammo he has coming in...will be nice to test head to head with the issue stuff, my pet load, and the Black Hills 175 gr. load.

He also wants a new .45ACP. Has been carrying a Para-Ordinance shorty and wants a small single stack. I suggested a Colt Commander or Ltwt version of the same. He was looking at one and it was about $900.00. We ARE getting together.

Kevin reafirms my faith in the ARNG, is a true professional, and listens. Would like to get him into a commander or full size gun. He's small, like me, and thinks it's a concern. Hell, I've been carrying 1911 full size, commanders, and Browning Hi-powers for over 1/4 century and have never been "made". It's all in how you do it...

Wish I could do a Vulcan "mind meld" with him. Still, like I said, he listen's. Will let him shoot mine and decide. On the other hand my Glock 36 is a premier carry piece...

Thanks to all the well wishers concerning my knee injury. Thanks, but be concerned for Undude. I just did mine putzing about. He did his while doing "something"...;-)

See we have a new sniper match sign up...will check it later as the Vicadin is taking hold.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 03:03:36 (ZULU)

So I'm out at the range today, shooting stuff I tuned up last week.

Got my 1000 yard dope all died in, pop a five round group under moa, feeling pretty damn salty about things, watching my partner set his junk up on a bench.............wussy..............

gets out the ol AR10T with 168 sierras and commences to make some noise.........meanwhile I get suckered in to not watching the damn mirage and can't hit s*it cuz I'm chasing it with the dial........dummassssssssss..........

So we go measure stuff and the damn gas gun has printed a five round 2.6 inch group at 1008 yards.....................I got stuck with the dinner tab.  

Bastard made me take off my red cape too..................

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 04:25:44 (ZULU)

2.6" at 1008 yards fer 5 shots? Hell, I'll buy him lunch! Anytime. GET BACK~!

Brogers <>
- Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 05:59:58 (ZULU)

Sarge-  Inbound e-mail re; 700 SA receivers

Jody and Rich S.-  Thanks for the input on the CMP I guess I'm just not so web sight savy.  I've got a 03, 03A3 and M1 from CMP and they all are good rifles.  Fun as hell !!

Bob-Thanks for the link to the Ogden shop I'll be giving them a try.

Well my cousin in A'Stan just e-mailed me.  He's off the line for several weeks due to a knee injury.  He was very vague about how it happened which is unusual, normally he lets me know all about his "heroic" deeds.  My aunt just confrimed the cause of the injury.  It seems he was playing around trying to ride what she said was a Llama and fell off, doing some lig damage (do they even have Llamas there? I am always suspect of his explanations)  An f-ing undercover Taliban Llama go figure=).  

Take care all,

Joe S.

Joe S. <>
Dago, Ca, Stars and Stripes Forever - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 09:58:50 (ZULU)


Thanks for the info on the 300RUM/Rockchucker. My friend hopes to have his rifle by May or June and wanted to start gathering necessary equipment.

Brian Insane: be glad the waterborne class is over it is 25 degrees this AM.

Undude: Glad you are back and in one piece...sort of.

SHOT SHOW: I hope to meet some of you guy's there. With my work schedule I'm only going to be able to be there one or two days.

Take care all.


TonyM <>
FL, US of A!!!! - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 12:08:47 (ZULU)

Yes; and Llamas look a lot like sheep after you've been there a few days.....Actually where you have to have mules and a pretty good place to bust your butt. There's a lot of uneven ground in Afganistan. You got to lean towards mount theft if you get around good there. SF found that out early on. Just like any mountain campaign, you can't win without good horses.

Brogers <>
- Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 15:59:33 (ZULU)

Joe S. can't afford to run a 4.0L jeep, petrol( you guys still call it gas right?) costs $1.10 per litre here, its diesel for me buddy, its a bit cheaper at $0.91/litre, and then converted to run on rape seed oil $0.54/litre, but if i can get the waste oil from the Mc D's and the Burgerking etc, and filter out the crap, I'll be free wheeling nearly. I've been fitting lights in the cellar, well we got light for a split second, looked a bit like lightening ??? now that can't be right. Tryng to figure out where to put a gun safe, ain't too keen on the cellar(wife is though), I suppose the boiler room would be best, its warmest.

I got a price for the G3 mount and for the Steyr mag, now what the hell did i do with the card i wrote it on??

Got some guys over this weekend trying to shoot some piggies, One of em shot 2 foxes Friday night and the other passed up on some pigs cos he thought they where too small, it wasn't u´ntill they where heading away from him that he thought.. " Hmmmm, they ain't all that small after all, bugger, they are gone now".. DUH! Another driven boar shoot next weekend so probably more pig antiks stories to follow.

Mark D, take a look at that Ali G film, Ali G In DaHouse, I'm for his policies on Immigration, if they are female and sexy, they are in, all others don't pass go..Whats the score on them big cats in the UK at the moment? we had a couple up our way a few years ago, i found some paw prints and a couple of Roe deer pulled up trees, been no sightings for maybe 3 years now.

Jon B, how about the shot show? i've organised us tickets for the IWA in Nurnberg, but i'd like a trip to the Shot show, how can we sell it to her indoors?


peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 16:38:07 (ZULU)

HOGs, just about over the Afghan Flu, what misserable crap it is. Most guys get it because the air is so bad.  You see folks just piss and crap in street, it dries and then blows around in the air. You go there take antibiotics! I did and they are working.  You have either heard the stories or been there but one thing one of the old timers kept telling me was "Cambodia was nice I wish we could be working there"  "Flip flops and shorts instead of S.. in the air and freezing my arse off" Tooth paste froze every night until I learned to keep it in the sleeping bag with me. Anyone thinking of going in a private security capacity talk to me before signing anything. They had guys just quiting after two or threee days and these guys were not wimps. You get away from US Military base and this place is a nightmare.

Mines everywhere (9,000,000 still unexploded). Some look like kids toys (Russian), some are nearly impossible to deteact (PLastic from Italy) but every freaking country in the world has added to the mines and few are clearing them.

As in most countries the basic people are good to go.  Fanatics have ruined the place.

Now when I came back through Turkey I was treated like a Spook and held for three hours for no reason. They kept telling me to come away from the airport for medical aide. I kept smilling and saying no thank you.  They searched and searched me, and my belongings but found no more than a compass, GPS, strobe Laser Range Finder (Idiots thought it was binoculars thank god) and water filter. Kept making me explain why I had them. Took all my batteries away and just screwed with me until my plane got there. I am in the secure area waiting for plane and have to pee. They send someone to watch me pee. He was saying he was sorry the whole time and embarrassed.  I was told time and time again US should not attack Iraq.  I kept saying I had nothing to do with any decision but they kept repeating it. They even tried to get me to "Go check to make sure they had the right bag" asd I was boarding the plane. I refussed and got on plane.  They seated me in front of jet, took my crutches away andthem made me get on one leg to the rear of the plane and sit by what appeared to be a security guy. Now all I did was transfer planes in Turkey I did not leave the airport so watch yourselves.  I was truthful with them as to working security in Afghanistan and gave them no crap what so ever,  You could not get me to go through that country again.  So much for our allies. Screw them!


MikeMIller <>
CA, - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 16:41:04 (ZULU)

Hey dudes,

I am on my second marriage. New bride is damn pretty, cooks like Emeril and dances like Ginger Rogers. But, she's city all the way. She ain't happy if she can't hit a WalMart with a rock.

I on the other hand am as country as a turnip green.

This Sunday morning she gets up and says "Honey, you wanna go to the shooting range?"

Huh?  I thought the romance was over ...

W      T      F    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Damn, I musta done it right last night.

So, I'm headed to the range with Momma and a brace of .22s.

First time in 5 years. Hope she ain't secretly mad or wanting to cash in on the insurance.

Just thought I'd share that in case ya'll never hear from me again.

brian k. sain <>
- Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 17:06:08 (ZULU)


Did you send me an email with "terms of use" as the topic with attatchment?

Rich S.

Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 17:26:08 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

I'm assuming you we're at Tac Pro. How did you like the new steal set up? I watched three 50 cal guys hammer that stuff for half a day and it still looked good at the end. 2.6 inch 5 shot group at 1k plus? Please tell me they were handloads.


I'm getting ready to start the process of learning how to handload and working up a load for my SR-25. It has a 1 in 11 twist, 20 inch Obermeyer barrel. Factory loads simply aren't doing it justice. And it's too nice of a gun to not let her sing her best.

Learning the handloading stuff from scratch is taking some time. I'm about finished with the reading materials that Kevin Mussack suggested on another site. And I may have someone who would be willing to coach me a bit. But if anyone has any specific advice on working up a load for this type of weapon I'm all ears right now.

Mike Miller,

I'm glad your home safely. I hope and pray you heal up fast and completely. (Same goes for you Wes!) And as far as Turkey goes, with Allies like that who needs enemies. You sir said it right - screw em!

John Levens

John Levens <>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 17:58:55 (ZULU)

John L,

Yeah it was TP.  Load was 45.8 varget over 168SMK in ww brass with fed210m.  don't know the seating depth.

Saw that big erector set you're talking about......had it disassembled over by the 1000 yard storage.

Didn't even want to think about putting all those parts together..............

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 18:21:30 (ZULU)


Thanks for the load info. I'm filing all the info and hope to try it out soon.

<<Saw that big erector set you're talking about......had it disassembled over by the 100 yard storage.  Didn't even wantto think about putting all those parts together..............>>

Man I don't blame you. I thought they said they were going to leave it set up. I can't imagine having to set up and tear down that rig every time I wanted to shoot. The 50 didn't tear it up much so I don't know why they wouldn't just leave it. Oh well it's above my pay scale.

Thanks again,

John Levens

John Levens <>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 18:43:43 (ZULU)

Anybody have a name contact at NightForce??? Have the phone number but need a name, perferably someone with some serious decision making ability.



Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 18:45:28 (ZULU)

Rich S.,

Negative on the email. The little pencil neck geek has been trying hard here lately. He's added another one called 'sobig' to his bag of toys. Just deleted 37 quaranteened virus laident emails that I received this morning.

On bino's.....

Did we decide a couple years ago that M19's were good good to go? I know at one time Master Gooch was looking fer a pair so I figger they had some value as good field bino's.

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 20:01:02 (ZULU)


Jeff Huber be Da Man at NightForce.


Pat <>
ID, - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 20:57:42 (ZULU)

John Levens,

            If you use 44gr. Varget, 175gr. SMK, Win. brass and Win. WLR primers, OAL to max mag length (probably 2.800") you might never need to try another. Shoots great in my 24" Obermeyer 1/11 5R barrel.

          44gr. WC748 ball with same other components MAY work better in a gas gun. You can safely substitute Lapua or Norma brass for the Win, but IMHO (in this loading) you'll just spend more money!

'yote bait,

          Damn right this guy must be awful good. 2.6" five shot at 1000yds? Heck, the world record is 1.43" or thereabouts.

Brian Sain,

          If I were you, I'd be worrying about which one of her favorite activities she's just set you up for. Sort of like Hostage Negotiation 101, ya know. " Sure I'll send you a six-pack of pop if you send out at least one of your hostages." :000

Pete L.,

        Don't they have motor fuel taxes on anything that you burn in a motor vehicle and environmental disposal manifests for things like used cooking oil in the Fatherland?

        When we were having the "Energy Crisis" here back in the 1970's, people living in homes with oil fired furnaces were pumping their untaxed heating oil into their diesel powered vehicles. It didn't take the Fed's long to catch on to that one! Tax evasion is no fun.

        I know several people here that own restaurant chains, and they have to pay a certified service to dispose of their used cooking oil - it goes to a recycler. The driver that hauls it away must provide the generator of the waste with a legal manifest, the total of which (quarterly) must come very close to equaling the amount of new oil purchased. Same thing as the auto service and repair shops. I'd be surprised if "green" Germany doesn't enforce similar regulations! Just a word to the wise, although I suspect that you've already covered your butt on this one.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 21:24:11 (ZULU)

        " 44gr. WC748 ball............"

John, lemme know if you're shooting 748 this summer and I'm next to you..........I wanna move far away..........

Sorry Alan, no gets to about 128-136 degrees on the deck where we shoot during summer months............748 is a good way to lose a gun with heat like that, get's real unstable real fast.

My favorite is 175 SMK with lapua brass, fed210m 45.6gr varget, seated 2.800.  Goes 2800 even, has single digit ES/SD, shoots nice close and's also recommended only in my rifle........don't use it.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 22:37:35 (ZULU)

OK folks I'm going to try to eliminate some confusion:

The Allegany (sp) Sniper Classic (ASC#2) and the Sniper Country SniperQuest 2003 are TWO DIFFERENT MATCHES!

PLease for ASC #2 contact Rod.

For SniperQuest 2003 contact Me or BadLands - see the Homepage of SC for direct links to BadLands and other info related to SniperQuest 2003.

Thanks and sorry for the confusion!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 22:39:00 (ZULU)

Sarge-- I guess it's my turn to thank you for trying to eliminate the confusion.  Anyone that is planning to attend either one of these matches please make sure you know which one you are trying to sign up to attend .  Based on a number of emails that I have received today there is still some confusion.  

 Those of you that have contacted me about a slot for ASC# 2 should have received a detailed ,three page email yesterday.  If you thought you had a slot for the match and DID NOT get the email please contact me directly.  Beyond that, as I indicated in that email, if you have questions that were not addressed-ASK.


Rod Hansen <>
- Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 23:56:30 (ZULU)

Brian sain...Assuming you make it back from the range.

   Buy her a really nice .22 of her own, if you haven't already; you might be surprised what materializes{sp?}..what goes around comes around!!


  Have we cleared up which match is which and who's going to which and where yet?  ASC#2{Allegheny Sniper Challenge} is in West Virginia.

Rod Hansen is the Contact person.

Outa here

Markwell <>
Takin' Advil In the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 02:31:13 (ZULU)


Just down from the shop. This not being very ambulatory sucks.

Sat and loaded some practice .308 stuff and tumbled/cleaned/prepped some .338 Lapua brass. Yeah, you read right. I gave George the go ahead to build mine for me. That single shot SAKO intrigued me, so much, I had to have one. Got brass, dies, etc., so am ready to roll. MK 4 16X Luppie for the scope. This IS gonna be an ass kicker.

Now I have to find a place to shoot beyond 600...

Any of you using the new Premier Gen II reticle? Is it worth the money My 16X just has the duplex reticle in it, at present, and I may want to rectify that...

Anyone have any recommended accuracy loads for the .338 Lapua using 250 grain Lapua bullets or 300 grain Sierra Match Kings? Assistance would be beneficial...

three more days on the leg and then an evaluation. It's getting a bit better, but not much. Hopefully, I can get them to put me on a "light duty" post. Who knows...

I do know I want to be back at work!

My 92 lb. White Shepherd just wandered and and woofed at me...guess it's time for her chow.

My best to all...

Semper fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 02:59:24 (ZULU)

 Those Swedes...Patriotic bunch, not a P.C. bone in their bodies...Gotta love 'em.......

Mark Smith <>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 04:01:56 (ZULU)


"Any of you using the new Premier Gen II reticle? Is it worth the money My 16X just has the duplex reticle in it, at present, and I may want to rectify that..."

Yes, but not as much as I would like but it is my own fault.  I think that you have already thought about this and just want someone to push you over the edge, so here goes.  If you're just going to target shoot the the duplex will serve you just fine.  However, if you are thinking about a little unknown distance work, without lasers, then you'll want the mil-dot.  And, if you're going to go the mil-dot then the Gen II is the way to go.  It takes the guess-work out of whether something is say 2.5 vs. 2.4 or 2.6 mils.  It also gives you more aiming spots for hold-over or leads.

O.K. I pushed so now you can feel better about spending the money :)

Later..., I love spending other peoples money!  

Byron <>
CA, USA - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 05:00:11 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

             I'm not doubting your experiences with W-W 748 at high temperatures. There are too many variables involved to belabor the point. My experiences with it in a gas gun have been positive, never had an indication of high pressures, and the ambient temp. at our range gets to 110F for four months per year. I've never tried to load it "hot", just to equal GI specs - for example the M852 Match round. I believe that this was first loaded at LC when DuPont was running the show using 4895. When Winchester took over the LC contract the powder was switched to W-W 750 which is the bulk (freight car load) version of the W-W 748 that we buy in consumer grades. I've been shooting the milsurp M852 (from CMP) for years in three M1A's and never seen any high pressure indications at any temp. that I've encountered!

             I duplicate this load with my handloads and get the same results. I find that it seems to have the correct pressure curve for the M1A gas system, where some other fine loads using other powders sometimes cause cycling problems in these rifles. I stay away from the M118LR (175SMK) type loadings in the M1A, but would not hesitate to try them in an SR-25 or AR-10. BTW, this 168SMK (M852) load and its handloaded duplicate chrono at an av. MV of 2585fps from an M1A.

             Like I said in the begining of this post, I don't doubt that what you're saying is truthful. I only wonder why my results, and those of several other local shooters, differ so greatly from yours. It also confuses me that the military produced this loading for so long and distributed it so widely if it wouldn't pass the stringent pressure testing required to certify it for production.

              I mic my fired cases right above the groove, and get an average of three reloadings out of the LC cases in my M1A's. Perhaps someone out there has a plausible answer for this seemingly huge difference?




Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 05:43:02 (ZULU)

Ok then it's unanimous! Everyone of the Comm dudes from here to the Ghan and now Mike Miller votes. The Ghan is a shit hole. See my post in Oct 2001 :). Turkey is a resort compared to the Ghan but don't get out of sight of the post. I'd bet you be absolutely right Mike, they thought you were a spook! They were foolin with you till they found out what they had. They are both afraid and dangerous around spooks. I got a buddy that still runs International Security for deliveries. He prefers Siberia to Turkey and can't be hired for the Ghan.

    Jimmy Carter is to blame for all this. This Iraqi would have been a short item on the Directors desk waitin for the shreader by now had JC not tampered with our "Diplomacy" back there. Osama should have been short circuited also but nobody knew, anyway but he was smarter and harder to find once THEY wised up.! Now we got Peaceniks and friggin Ghandis all over the damn place. Where's my Cloak?  Send your boxtop and 25 cents for your decoder ring!

All of this could have been avoided with a couple of hammer drops. About 1979.

Brogers <>
- Monday, January 20, 2003, at 05:55:25 (ZULU)


Anyone still in contact with Frank or any other of the Philippino Marines who used to visit us here?

If any of you PMC snipers are lurking on here please contact me off SC.

Undude.  Sounds like you had fun.  Kind of makes you appriciate the good ole US of A huh?  Working out of the US has its moments even doing what I am doing on a Navy base things can get dicey when you arent DOD.  Thank God I have a little DOD ID card that most furners dont know the diff between a green AD and a blue retired one.

I'm in the process of planning a little R&R over here.  I think its about time to hop on a MAC flight and get some sunlight.  Anyone have any recommendations.  I hear Midway Island has some regular flights.  

Just to let ya'll know.  SSI is fixing to ramp up their school in Washington.  Part of my job when I get back in May is to get their schools fired up.  If any of ya'll go the the SNOT show you might want to check out their booth.  Tell 'em Gooch sent ya.

Out here.

Gooch <>
- Monday, January 20, 2003, at 06:58:37 (ZULU)

Mike, I am glad you are back...

Michael <>
CA, USA - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 08:50:25 (ZULU)


Guam is a short flight from Japan, about 2 hours IIRC.  I haven't been there since 1986 but back then they had good food, plenty of sun (I doubt thats changed) and nice warm clear water if you like diving.  Not a lot of beaches (lots of coral) but some good ones.  Not too crowded back then.

Saipan looked nice too but I only went there once to pick up a bent diver and take him to a chamber.

There should be plenty of MAC flights to Guam.  From there you can access any of the Micronesian Islands via commuter fligt if you want.

Good luck.

Steve <>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 09:27:01 (ZULU)

I am looking for information on the H-S Precision rifles. The rifle I have received is a pro hunter take-down in 2 caluburs. When I received it, I was disappointed with the craftsmanship. There were several items that were poorly machined. The centering of the bolt assembly for one calibur was severely off-centered.  I assumed that that was why the fired shell casings would not extract from the chamber, so I returned the rifle to H-S Precision. They had replaced the bolt and returned the rifle to me. After test firing the rifle with factory ammunition, the casings still don't extract from the chamber. Out of curiosity, I was wondering if anyone else has had these problems with the H-S Precision rifles? If so, I would be interested in any information available.

Thank you,


Craig <>
- Monday, January 20, 2003, at 10:36:31 (ZULU)


Nice diatribe.  :))

748 has been one of my favorite 30 cal powders for decades, used it exclusively when I lived in the moderate Orygun coast climate.

Had very bad experiences here in Tx, but then, I'm loading for a real gun and you're not.  ( I'M KIDDING ).

Seriously, that's probably the major difference, I want my bullets out faster than the MIA is capable of.  Seen some serious overpressure on mousegun loads worked up at 90 degrees........soon as it hits 100-105 things come loose.  Bolts lock up in real guns,....... :)

I'd love to be able to use it here,  it's accurate as hell.

Mike in Texas <>
Granbury, Texas, - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 15:02:39 (ZULU)

Undude wrote: >>As in most countries the basic people are good to go.  Fanatics have ruined the place.<<

I believe you have pointed us to a very important and timely lesson....fanatics have ruined every country that is ruined.  Every country that is not ruined has controlled the fanatics that exist or existed there...

It's like a basic civics lesson... tolerate criminals and ultimately they ruin everything for you. We have several beautiful examples here in my home state... Camden and Newark come to mind.

I once went to court because I was witness to a crime (I'll leave out the details save to say there was a victim).  The 'accused' attempted to intimidate me by threatening my family.  I showed on trial day and he went to jail. Someday, he will get out, and I will be ready should he decide to make good on his threat.

We all need to do our part to keep our homes free from land mines.  Gotta wonder why all those good Afghan people allowed a few fanatics to ruin the place <rhetorical question>?  Now that the US has made it easy (paid with the blood of our soldier's), will they now have the will to protect themselves from the evil within.  

Medics at large - I live for the nasty ones on cell phones... aggressive trauma protocols exist for a reason (we medics didn't write them, we just follow them, in a professional and courteous manner) ... irrational belligerence toward rescuers is a clear sign of potential head trauma, treat accordingly..... "Sir, this is gonna hurt ALOT, but it will help to save your life.....sorry about your clothing, but you must be made TRAUMA NAKED per my protocol"

Brain Sain - Patients encapsulated in a crushed car allow for little access to the traditional locations for IVs... the external jugular is a viable alternative in those trying times...please remind your local medics should the situation re-occur...

medicjim <>
- Monday, January 20, 2003, at 16:12:21 (ZULU)

Wes,  take care of your Knee.  As you may know I have a titanuim one from years of use and abuse.  Alot of which is not listening to Doc's orders.  The Replacement was number operation #11 on the knee, which included two complete rebuilds prior to the replacement.

Kent - Hope things are going well for your family from the Auto accident..  Watch you 6 and stay safe.

Take care

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 20:34:28 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

              The older and more experienced I get, the more the temptation is to simplify things. One day I had this hallucination about being able to use but two or three different powders to suit maybe 90% of my reloading needs. HA!

              So I now reload for my M1A's (W-W 748, H4895) and my B/A Tac rifles (Varget, RE15) and B/A hunting rifles (W-W 760, 4064), all in .308! Soon to be added is an AR-10(T) in this chambering. Who knows what powder I'll need for it?

              Then I come to my .300WM (RE22, RE25, 4350, H4831). Of course I can't forget my mouse guns. (H4895, Varget, RE15, H335). I'm not even gonna mention the .30-'06's, .270,.264WM, .300H&H, .243, .220Swift, .222 and various other shooting sticks that are laying around the house.

               My ol' lady suggests trimming down the inventory to one rifle per chambering. Theoretically this would cut way down on the powder inventory and the necessity of experimenting with all of those loads.....................NOT!

               So instead I'll just piss and moan about the freedom that allows us to be able to make all of those terrible choices and have great fun doing it;)) And then I'll compound the problem by adding the requirement of tracking the M3 dials to make this even more fun. I bring this all upon myself *:=0


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 20:52:27 (ZULU)


I had been on traveling for the past two weeks, when I got back the posting on Parallax was already gone. Some of you saved it unlike me. If its not too much trouble could you send it to my email below!!

I appreciate it.


J Shilling <>
Cordova, TN , USA - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 20:55:07 (ZULU)


4064 is the magic stuff I use in AR-10's.  When you are ready, drop me a line, and I will give you the entire formula.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 21:54:48 (ZULU)

Byron Moreland, please contact me concerning Badger base for Stealth...  Questions.



Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the panhandle, Texas, US of A - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 22:05:34 (ZULU)

Went shooting today with Chuck Hunt and a SGT from work who was wanting to begin Service Rifle shooting. I as did others urged him to start with the AR. He went and ordered the M1A NM tho. We were out going through the basics at 200 and 300. I fired one shot to confirm my 200 yd sight setting was correct. Clipped the right side of the X with that shot. Put the gun down and didn't fire another shot. I figgure let him figgure out I can not do that every time.

Wes and Mike, speedy recovery to you both.

Yote Bait, Howdy.

Why do you guys use more than one powder? Varget has only disapppointed me with only one bullet thus far. A light 30 cal bullet. I like keeping things simple. I wont change for less than a half MOA gain. I use it in 223, 270 and 308. Haven't tried it in my shotgun ;) (DISCLAIMER DONT USE IT IN A SHOTGUN !!!!! Bad things would result)

Back to lurk status, although it aint keeping me from getting viruses and advertisements for junk...

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Monday, January 20, 2003, at 22:07:39 (ZULU)

Steve; ya been runnin around I know where ya been! Watch the door.

Brogers <>
- Monday, January 20, 2003, at 22:23:56 (ZULU)

Before I get pissed off and make an ass out of myself, I come to the Roster for an opinion.

Early November I ordered a shooting coat from a very reputable dealer. I told the nice person that this was my first coat and I didn't know how to order the proper size. I was asked what my chest size and my gut size were. I told the person that I had a 45" chest and a 38" gut. I also told him that I wanted to be able to wear at least one sweatshirt under the coat (per Sinister's advice). The guy said that I needed a tapered coat with a 44" chest. I said WTF and asked why 44? He said that they had to fit tight. I relented and went with his advice.

I received the coat about three weeks later and tried it on. Couldn't hardly get it on over a t-shirt much less a sweatshirt. I called Sinister with my impending problem and he told me to send it back for the proper size which was 46".

Called the reputable company and the nice person said no problem, send it back. I advised that since it was their fault that the coat was too small that I needed a refund on the return shipping.

Got the coat back today, fits like it should have in the first place. However, they had a note saying "WE DO NOT REFUND SHIPPING ON SIZE DISCREPANCIES". I asked myself WTF again, while kicking the dog and beating on the wall with my head.

Now, I am a man of principle. When somebody claims to be an expert on something and advises me that I need a certain something, I assume they know WTF they are doing. I also believe that when somebody is wrong, I shouldn't have to pay the cash to return THEIR muck up. I realize that $20 bucks isn't much to most people, and I won't go hungry without it, but it's the principle of the thing. I have returned many items that weren't shipped in the right size that I ordered. I have recieved returned shipping tags for company's muck ups.

My question.....Should I call and raise hell with them? If they say no again, should I advise the Hawgs the name of the company? I don't want Hawgs ordering a now damn near $280 coat, thinking that the person on the other end of the line is sizing them properly!

Rant and question over, Bolt pissed and out!!!!!

Bolt <>
NC, - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 00:39:25 (ZULU)

 Bolt....Had a similar problem with a gunbelt from Galco.....They corrected their mistake on their dime....Good folks,good holsters,and good service made me a good customer.....Ya gotta convince folks sometime;)

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 01:05:27 (ZULU)

Gooch and others- remember as we get older, we may not be as good as we once were, but we can be as good (or better) once than we ever were!

Made my own trip to the orthopod last June after 2 months of denial.  Got told there was nothing structurally wrong with the knee.  Whole lot of "foreign bodies" floating around that he was itching to remove.  Ya know, the knee quit hurting-honest!  Am gonna schedule trash removal though.  Stay away from the cortisone if they still give those shots.

If you can find a sympathetic doc, try asking for Norgesic (sp?).  Years back I got that after an oops and it was great!!!!!!!! No impairment of judgement, getting sleepy etc., just great peace in the affected area.  Have been told since that that's a nontypical use of the drug.

WR Moore <>
- Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 01:19:20 (ZULU)

Bolt, I have to agree with everything you said, as well as everything Mark said. Galco makes good leather, and you shouldn't have to eat that $20. More than likely, it's a matter of someone not telling someone else what the deal was. If you got it through who I suspect you got it through, they should make it right quick enough. If not, send it to them, via here.

Mike, glad you're going to be OK. Very glad. Can I suggest Detroit iron instead of Japanese stainless steel?

Jaeger <>
- Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 01:53:28 (ZULU)

J Shilling - greeceman - incoming w\attatchment

subject : paralax adjustment

Steve~hockeyref <>
- Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 02:50:02 (ZULU)


Thanks to all who forwarded the parallax message, gonna try it on one of my scopes see if I can make a mess of things....

J.C.  I Will be in touch re MSSA, good talking to you.


Jim "Greeceman" Shilling <>
Cordova , TN, USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:10:57 (ZULU)

Does Remington LE put safteys on the bolt shroud of the new LTR's?  

Thanks, Daren

Daren Yancey <>
Blackfoot, Idaho, - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:14:57 (ZULU)

Mike and Alan,

Thank you for the load info and help.

I appreciate it.

John Levens

John Levens <>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:20:41 (ZULU)

1K shoot this weekend in Middle Tenn.  WCRC is holding a 1K prone match Sunday at 9AM.  $15 to shoot.  Contact me for more details.

This should be good for cold weather dope ;))

Nightforce NXS is home.  I have to say that Lightforce USA has outstanding customer service.  I don't know if anything is differnet yet, but I gotta say I'm happy so far.  Professional and FAST.  Return slip say "replaced adjustmenst".  No idea if it's parts of or the entire erector cell, or if it's the internal "brush off" phrase, but the scope has a full 110MOA elevation and 77.25moa windage.  More than I'll ever need.  Should have a range report back next week, if we break 30 degrees ;)

Puttin' Gumby back together again tonight.  Unlike Humpty Dumpty.. it's going smooth as silk.  Ran the lapping bar over the rings 4 or 5 times and even though I pushed them both forward .5",, they're perfectly aligned.  Never hurts to check, so all I'm out is some clean up and the re-blue.  Gotta love them badgers.....


Should have the Prone stock in by the end of the week.  Barreled action is in the safe.  Hope to be able to order the Badger base next week, and load test right after it's mounted.  Will let ya know how it goes.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:24:28 (ZULU)

Bolt incoming. N\A


Steve~Hockeyref <>
Having to shut off zone alarm, so I can get the text windowe to post?!?!?!?!?!, north of the Alleghenies - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:26:26 (ZULU)

Daren-anytime a manufacturer makes a "safety improvement" it is applied across the board.  Brownell's and GPI have complete firing pin assemblies (pin, spring, shroud, cocking piece etc.) that's a direct screw in replacement. Use the "improved" piece as a spare.  Hint: get one of the tools to speed removal.

WR Moore <>
- Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 04:00:51 (ZULU)

Hello all,

havent been here in a while and thought I would drop by. Anyone ever tried some of the TTI armory bullet in 168gr, BTHP with the balistic tip? The other day I went to the range with a box and my average group size went twice as large. On the second to the last shot, the round wouldnt fire. I trie it a few more times then took the bullet out to examine it and the whole primer looked like it was trying to make its way into the case like a miniture jack hammer was hitting it. Anyone else have a problem with it? I think 1 in a 20 rate of failure in match grade ammo is too much, hell i dont even get that in the green plastic bag ammo.

Maddog5150 <>
CA, USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 07:40:45 (ZULU)

Alan,i've looked into this cooking oil thing indepth. The German authorities have what is called a Mineral Fuels tax, anything that isn't a mineral bases fuel is exempt. If you mix the oil with diesel OUTSIDE your cars fuel tank you are creating a  mineral fuel mixture. which would be liable to tax, if you just tip both in the tank separately, its ok. the theory is to have a 2 tank system, start on diesel, when the car is warm switch to Oil, a heat exchanger and tank warmer are part of the conversion, as rape oil needs heating to between 60 C and 80C to achieve the same viscosity as diesel. The Mc Ds Burger Kings etc have to dispose of thier waste oil and pay to do it, All I have to do is set up a flitration unit and a tank at home, and i can become a oil disposal guy, and because the conversion on the car is legal and actualy TUV (Govt testing authroity) proved and aproved, then i can show where i burned the oil, all above board and all a damn site cheaper than the rip off we have to pay on Mineral based fuels, hel Id run the damn car on carrots if i thought it would save me enough money to get an extra hunting trip to Scotland once a year.

Mike M. sorry to hear about the damn Turks, I had a bit of a fall out with one in the summer, it lead to him having a broken nose and blood all over his chino trousers, your experiences are a reason for me to boycot going to Turkey, it is very popular with holiday makers here and the wife was on about a summer holiday there, well sod em, I ain't going, if only the damn sun would shine in Scotland, maybe i could get her there for a couple of weeks, now she likes to sleep in on holiday, and i could go for early morning walks,( up the hill carrying rifle)  just have to figure how to get the rifle over without her seeing it??

I got ripped off with the jeep by the way, the sonofabitch is getting the sod back, Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 09:04:24 (ZULU)

Not trying to out do CDC but it looks like the Arab nations aren’t too keen on having a democracy set up on their doorstep. They’re getting very twitchy now war is getting closer. These are worth a look if you have an idle moment.

Pete L tell us more about those  S&B rumours….

Mark D

Mark D <>
London, UK - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 10:07:42 (ZULU)


Have decided that having a bum knee sucks. Other than the fact that I can do lot's of sit down sort brass and reload...;-)

Am going to have plenty of .308 and .223 accuracy loads when this is all over.

Saw my own doctor today. He's refering me to a orthopedic specialist.

In the meantime I'm off work until we can get this thing fixed/healed.

He believes it's an ACL or torn miniscus. All I know is I want to be functional again(wife would like that, too).

Am looking at .308 loads. Am going to play with some 155 grain Palma's and 190 grain Match Kings in my .308. Just for fun. The 175's shoot better than I can, but why leave well enough alone? The Palma's can be pushed to 2,900 FPS. That's gotta be fun.

With at least another week off I should have my .300 Win Mag done and ready for  testing. Can hardly wait. When the .338 Lapua gets here it means I'll have accuracy rifles in .223, 6.5 X .284, .308, .300 Win Mag, and .338 Lapua. That should keep me havin' fun fer awhile!

Still, when I head to the range I generally grab my .308. Kinda grows on you...besides, I have to have something to talk about at the 12 step meeting for .308 guys!

Have a shooting buddy looking for a Remington 700 LEFT HAND short action with a .308 bolt face. If you guys know of one for sale let me know.

Any of you gents with load data for .300 Win Mags let me know. I'd appreciate the information.

All for now.


P.S. I'm as good as I ever was...once.

Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 10:31:04 (ZULU)

I hope if I'm ever injured, Medicjim or someone he trained is the first responder. That level of intensity in primary care would have to have a positive impact on the patients will to live. You know, the kinda guys that get mad when you flat line on 'em. They're the best.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 12:06:12 (ZULU)

Question for Pete (out of idle curiosity).  What does the exhaust smell like when you burn cooking oil for fuel?  

Some of our guys at work burn the 100LL avgas from the defueler in their bikes and you can always tell when they're running avgas by the smell.

Just wondering.

Steve <>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 12:14:22 (ZULU)


it smells like whatever they were frying in it... read this from the news a couple of weeks ago here. You gotta laugh.

Mark D

Mark D <>
London, UK - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 12:59:21 (ZULU)


Will the S.C. Limited Edition Rifle have the locking bolt shroud on it ? I didn't know if Remington was supplying the actions to you without this POS lock.

Kimbershooter <>
Disputanta, Va., USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 13:04:48 (ZULU)

Got a question about scopes.

Got some money saved up and have decided to buy a new scope to put on top of a Sendero in .300WM. It came with a Tasco SS, but we'll move on now.  Now the question is what to put on top.  Thinking about a Leupold 4.5-14X50LR M1 or one of those new Nikon 4-16 Tacticals.  On the other hand I also looked at some Nightforce scopes. HELP! The rifle is going to be used out to 8oo yds, occasionally 1000.  Any suggestions would be taken into consideration.



back to the hide

Marc Ingram <>
Hville, GA, USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 13:37:50 (ZULU)

Wes,  your knee sounds like what happened to mine the first ime I hurt it.  That was back in 1981 and the technology was to live without the ACL and trim the miniscus, keep the leg strong and live with it.  Now the technology is to reconstruct the ACL using a patella tendon graph or sythetic material.  I had both done on the way to the total replacement I had a couple of years ago. Doc's can work around the soft tissue damage, but once the miniscus is buggered up you have to baby it, because if you don't it wears out and bone on bone is a painful condition.   It's worth the time to find the best Doc's around and go see them before having something done.  These Doc's are soo good now at fixing knees that you don't have to live in pain and without function. Check witht he Atheletic departments at Oregon and Oregon State, the best guys usually are around sports medicine.  I kept hurtng mine because I had a dream of the NFL, and after fixing it went out and played again.  Was real DUMB when I was young, and not much improved if you ask my wife and teenager.

Take care

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 14:59:53 (ZULU)

Mornin' Hogs 'n Hogetts;

I saw a promo on the History Channel for tonight at 19:00 CST they are going to have a program on Snipers.  Has anyone seen this program?  Is it worth the time?

Keep your powder dry, and, your flint sharp!


Jim McNabb <>
The Colony, Texas , USA - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 15:15:56 (ZULU)


As far as I know, we all voted the Remmy safety shroud POS "off the SC rifle island".  He's retro-fitting 'em .  Can't wait!!!



Rich S <>
Bal'mer, - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 16:45:45 (ZULU)

To the hardy bunch that is planning to camp out during the Allegheny Shoot this May, please contact me so that we can coordinate a group reservation at the camp ground... there will be three of us representing central NJ this year.

medicjim <>
- Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 17:09:16 (ZULU)

OK seems to me to be a member of SC you need:

Strong opinions

Bad attitude toward idiots

Bad knees

Strong charcter.

Great clubs guys.

OK one funny things from Turkey. When I was coming through airport had taken gear I did not want to disapear (Binos,spotting scope,laser,GPS,Compass,Water filter etc) and enough food and clothes to get me back, even if my big bag came up missing. Ruck weighed right at 50lbs. When I handed it to the 5'7" security guy he grunted and dropped it saing "How do you carry that on crutches?" I said I had made it light so it would be easy. I reached down, picked it up and asked if he wanted me to sit it someplace for him.  Keeping a straight face the whole time.

Peter, why dont you try Florida. About the same trip to the sun and I am sure some guys from here would take you pig hunting while there.  The Florida folks certainly wont treat you like the Turks will and hell the Black Bass fishing is as good as any place in the world. If they had some 1000 yard shooting I would leave CA!


Mike Miller <>
CA, - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 17:24:18 (ZULU)

**"OK seems to me to be a member of SC you need:"**

**"Strong opinions"**

Uhhmmmm... YEP just ask my wife and coworkers. I've taken to polishing my shoes with flavored polish in case I end up with foot-in-mouth disease!

**"Bad attitude toward idiots"**

Yep, VERY LOW IDIOT TOLERANCE LEVEL! But, working in I.T. I have learned to inform someone as just how big an idiot they are and still sound constructive in most cases. (is this a demerit?)

**"Bad knees"**

One Doc says that the MRI's show "partial ACL and MCL tears in both knees but not bad enough to do anything about" another says "No tears".. Both agree that degenerative artheritis is in the early  stages at age 37... AND I can tell when the weather is changing....

*Might qualify as bad knees*

**"Strong charcter."**

I like to think so....

As a Side note, If any one is trying to reach me via email for the ASC#2, my connection at home is down for a couple days so I can't see anything going to until Friday..... if it's going to the address below I can get to it between 8am and 4pm eastern time....Rod has my work address...

Steve~Hockeyref <>
just sitting here, waiting for the next Alberta Clipper to come through and dump more snow and cold on us!, north of the Alleghenies - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 18:18:40 (ZULU)


Great idea for the IWA.  I'll hit you off Roster about the details.

Big cats in the UK!  Recently went to a Mammal Soc. meeting and the head man from the Forestry Commission in the Forest of Dean, confirmed that his Rangers had spotted 2 'big cats' with the thermal imager, but couldn't identify the species.  About 2 weeks ago a farmer in west Wales had his whippet killed and half eaten by a large black cat (if you don't have whippets in the US they are like small grey hounds).  He disturbed it and said it had a cub at foot.  Expert from the University of Wales, Swansea (ah, happy times :-) ) looked at the evidence and said it was a Panther.  I had a little chuckle when they showed the police marksmen, patrolling the farm in pairs and guarding the gate.  Me thinks they will have to try a different tac to catch a whiley big cat other than posing for the cameras and looking like they are on a VIP protection detail.  Also heard that there are rumours that one of the 'Beasts' from the west country (don't know if it was Bodmin or Exmoor) was dealt with and hushed up to prevent panic.  And an old forest worker who lives in the middle of Gisburn forest (Bowland) swears he has seen 'something' on 2 occasions and has had stock go missing.  I ahven't seen any evidence myself.  I'm suprised that with all the fox shooting that goes on around the country at night, that there haven't been more sightings.  Any in Germany?


Jon Beardsley <>
- Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 18:29:33 (ZULU)


 Ha!  The qualifications to survive this site are a crack up; if only because it is the darn truth! With all you type-A's hanging around, it is amazing anything ever gets settled...

Strong Opinions:

 My damned opinions are so strong, they're accepted as facts.  So there!

Bad attitude toward idiots:

 Not really.  But he deserved it.  Poor, mindless, blathering idiot told me "that won't happen..." when I was trying to secure a domicile for a homeless FNG in my unit.  While frontal assaults are normally my preferred fun, I took the high road into this dolt's flank.  It was even more satisfying when he called back to apologize in a fawning, albeit pathetic, manor.  My man, incidentally, has cash in hand to secure quarters.  Took all of 45 minutes after my call to the DFAS Deputy CG...It's actually a "good attitude" towards idiots--I just love rolling into their weak-assed flanks with an armored column. (this morning's adventure)

Bad knees:

If one won't qualify, I can submit the other for approval.  

Strong character:

I don't know nuthin' bout this one.  But damn, it's good to be the king...

Oddly, no mention of shooting ability.  Thank God; I guess that's my loophole to stick around...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 19:25:09 (ZULU)

It gets settled 'cuz we think alike and agree on most things....... As you are aware, the archives are full of the bi-annual Sh*t Storms that occur when we disagree......

Steve ~ Hockeyref <>
Waiting on spring, but hoping it ain't too wet, north of the Alleghenies - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 19:46:33 (ZULU)


Hey dude, got the dope on the AI barrel paint scheme if yer interested, got some leg work to do yet, but I got it anyway....also getting a beadblaster in tomorrow so it looks like my painting of barrels here is starting to come together...  Oh, and I know a few guys runnin their vehicles off 'chip fat', don't stink, burns fairly clean actually, sodium hydroxide is used to 'clean the gunk out of the oil'.  The Crown doesn't care for it too much eh..


Glad you're back.  I can finally exhale..


I'm not sure if I heard it exactly right, but on the radio this morning I heard the brits were sending 35K troops to the gulf.  Well, they only have enough boots, uniforms, etc. for 20K.  BOOTS!!!!  can you believe that...maybe it's nonsense.  What happens if 'the war to end all wars part 3' well, just BAM!! in your face it's there..  The Brits can't send troops because of a boot shortage?  Bloody hell..

PeteL, part II

what's this IWA talk?  Yeah, gather the troops and we'll meet somewheres near the red light district eh..

Anyone here have experience with the DSR #1 sniper system?  Makin' a few barrels for the bad boys, ooh and they are bad boys, mean lookin sods..


Yeah, did you see those guys huntin that kittie cat?  Man killin urban assault rifles, no scope to be found...I fell of the couch when I saw the news on BBC1, ha!!  Black cat, how the hell do they know it's black..  You know the easiest way to find if it's canine or feline is the way the carcass is left.  A cat will lick the meat off the bone, a dog won't or can't really.  See you know these types of things when you grew up 'round mountain lions and coyotes.  These pricks are clueless.  I suppose these polis folk are wandering thru the woods sayin 'here kitty kitty, or here puss puss'..  Oh wait, they aren't even getting off the road, are they....


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 20:58:37 (ZULU)


You got mail.  No attachments


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 21:07:50 (ZULU)

Hey JR, Do ya think we should send the kitty whacker over there to show'em how it's done? I'm sure 'Lito is getting bored stalking felinus domesticus.....

Steve ~ Hockeyref <>
- Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 21:21:36 (ZULU)

aye, send over america's best, the feline reducimator "catshooter", aka 'lito....

JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 21:40:56 (ZULU)

Conclusion of the coat saga....

I spoke with the people at the company (name still withheld since I don't know if this is standard industry procedure). They explained as follows:

1. Their coats are actually built over the size that they recommend, ie. they figger if you say you have a 45" chest, the size 44 will fit you properly. They said they automatically assume that you will be wearing a sweatshirt. There are also variables such as your lats, shoulder width, size of arms, etc. Essentially they can't custom tailor over the phone. (this I don't understand since the coats are supposed to be custom fit)

2. If I had ordered a 46 and it was too big, I would have sent it back for that reason also. (wouldn't have happened since the coats are supposed to be custom fit)

3. They don't refund return shipping on a mis-sized coat and also charge shipping back to you for one that fits. (this doesn't make sense still)

4. They indicate that 99% of the coats they sell based on item 1 fit perfectly, I happened to be the 1% that didn't. (that figgers)

The folks were very nice, didn't get upset, and neither did I. They offered to refund my shipping, something as I said above, they normally don't do. I told them I would think on it, trying to be fair to both of us. I also said that they shouldn't oversize the size. If the coats are custom made, then they should make a size 45 with an allowance for a sweatshirt. If other dimensions are critical, they need to ask for them.

Anywho, thanks to the Hawgs that wrote supportive emails. I don't like to blow things out of proportion, but when you work your ass off to afford a high dollar anything, you don't want to think that you have been screwed. Had to clean 20 reels to buy this sucker.

If anyone asked me how to order a coat, I couldn't give them a clue except to say that if you have a size 45" chest and 38" gut, don't order a size 44 coat. Even with this size 46 I can barely get one sweatshirt on under it. The main problems occur at the shoulder joint. If you have big arms, you definitely need to tell them that.

Still slapping myself in the forehead, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 00:29:50 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SniperQuest 2003<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Gang if you haven't checked out the "Prize" page recently you should!! Granted I haven't YET posted WHAT is being donated but will as soon as I work the details on a BIG prize!! Sponsors are being GENEROUS!!

Military types, check out the Match Application we've added something specifically with you in mind!!

Gang this is going to be a match to remember!!!

Check it out folks!!!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 00:32:44 (ZULU)

Darren:  I was informed that Rem was not putting the shroud lock safety on their LE rifles.  That was right after their lawyers came out with that piece of crap though.  Maybe now is different.  

WR Moore: Is your info more recent?  If so, then I guess big green's lawyers changed that policy too!

Anyone heard from Mike rock lately?  I sent him an email a couple weeks ago regarding a custom AR-10 bbl., haven't heard back.  Is he out on bigger-better projects?

Mike M.  Did you try floating the Turks any $?  I spent some time in tents there a few years ago.  Fastest way to get anything done there is bribes... they're expected!  IF you ever have to go back, it's a great place for sightseeing, and the food's great.  And the only time I got sick was from eating on base.

Sarge: How's that M-1A doing?  They got the Roswell range fiasco done up yet?  I sure miss the shooting in NM.  By the way, a smith friend of mine just moved down to Alto from Lubbock.  Shop's down until he can get a building done, but if you need some work done semi-locally, I can get you in contact with him.  He's a very good 'smith and can work his way around a mill and lathe pretty well.  Also he's a HM NMC shooter and damned good LR shooter too.

Titan:  That 100 hour a week stuff sucks.  I only had to do it for a short time to figure that out, but didn't have a choice in that matter.  No one ever thinks about the fact that a business owner has to be able to do EVERYTHING for a small business.  They can never get a break!  BTW, my dad's a neighbor of yours right now... in PT at Genisys for his hip.  Bad wreck in May and he still isn't walking.

All:  Take care.  For those off to the big shootin' match, good luck, stay safe and come back with everything you left with ('cept some ammo maybe!).  One of these days maybe they'll get me a replacement and I can go play again.

Time to run,


Caison <>
Dela-where?, - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 02:01:25 (ZULU)


My hot button: Piss-poor corporate management.  If they know that only 1% will have the wrong sized jacket, why the Hell do they piss off those 1%, and all their friends, by giving them a hard time about shipping??

They may have made you finally happy after you bitched, but I'd never have anything to do with a company that puts me is such a position in the first place!  Whose the jackass manager that thought of that one??


Hank <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 02:06:16 (ZULU)


I know I'm about to stir up a hornet's nest, but has anyone had any dealings with the new Springfield Armory Xtreem Duty?

I messed with one in the gun shop, and it felt real nice, but I want to know if anyone has any input on it, before I go spend $400 on it.

Oh, when and where is that TEXAS shoot?  I'm interested, and hopefully available.


Mayhem Out!

Mayhem <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 04:01:00 (ZULU)


Just down from the shop prepping some .308 cases and working on my .300 Win mag stock.

Laminated stocks: Look great and are stable. Mine is glass/pillar bedded, but am fitting the metal. Got the metal all fitted and barrel free floated. NOW I have to remove all the excess wood. I've discovered that laminated stocks do NOT work like fine walnut. They tend to want to splinter and gouge. Even with sharp tooling. Will just have to take it slow. Expect to have this done this week...then to the range for break in and testing.

Alan was kind enough to send me some of his .300 Win Mag pet loads. Looks promising...can't wait to give it a try.

Titan, the knee is scheduled for a look see with one of our orthopods...he's the gent that does Oregon State's stuff, so I think he's good. We'll see. At this point I just want to get back to normal.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 04:14:31 (ZULU)

XD; is a good pistol. Much like a Glock only somewhat better in some areas. I'm not a Springfield fan but this gun isn't something they make anyway. It's imported from one of the Eastern European countries.   Oh yes, accuracy was some better than my .40 Glock. IT's a keeper. Sure worth the $400.00.

Guys with bad knees; There's a new drug called Bextra. IT's hell on inflamation and works quickly. IF your alergic to Sulfa drugs it could cause a rash so start with 10 mg doses. Ask your Doctor. It has changed my mobility and everyone I know that's used it swears by it. I was almost immobile, took a cortozone shot to the knee and it helped but was still bad walking, lots of pain in the knees and other places. The BEXTRA is unbelievable. No stomach irritation or other bad effects. Can you Say "Miracle Drug"?\

Brogers <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 04:46:35 (ZULU)


    Got a nice thank you note in todays mail from Blake. I'm glad that he likes ol' Buck. That was a cute drawing - LOL. Looks like you're raising a great kid.


    If you have big cats to get rid of just send for some Yank cowboys or sheepmen. Treeing them with a pack of dogs then shooting them out of the tree always works. Also, staking live bait under a tree and waiting in a stand for them to show up at night is a good method. They kill and eat live prey. Traps with dead stuff inside will only work if the cat is starving. They're not at all like dogs. But maybe it's not a cat at all. Maybe it's the Hound of the Baskervilles.

    I hope that they put real hunters on them before anybody gets hurt. If you startle them out of their hide during daylight chances are that they'll attack rather than run. We had two serious injuries last summer, about one month apart. Both were French tourists. Do you suppose that it was the odor;=)) ?


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 05:26:27 (ZULU)

Holy F**K

I have pretty much stopped posting - I still get the weekly BS from Africa, and now I get a bogus email from Kevin (Andy's Dad)

I dont know at thing about tracing this guy but I am quit willing to visit if he is found...

Return-path: <>

Received: from

( []) by l-daemon

(iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.6 (built Oct 18 2002))

with ESMTP id <0H9300667QKUZM@l-daemon> for bolandks@ims-ms-daemon

(ORCPT; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:12:30 -0700 (MST)

Received: from

( []) by l-daemon

(iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002))

with ESMTP id <0H9300JVZQKU1V@l-daemon> for

(ORCPT; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:12:30 -0700 (MST)

Received: from ( [])

by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002))

with ESMTP id <0H93003IHQKTOO@l-daemon> for; Tue,

21 Jan 2003 23:12:30 -0700 (MST)

Received: from Apwopb ( [])


(iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.09 (built Jan  7 2003))

with SMTP id <> for; Wed,

22 Jan 2003 01:12:23 -0500 (EST)

Content-return: prohibited

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:12:07 -0500 (EST)

Date-warning: Date header was inserted by

From: kmussack <>

Subject: A  excite game


Message-id: <>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: multipart/alternative;


Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27:20 (ZULU)

Hi Fellas,

JR, I wouldn't mind the AI paint details aswell.  Is there anything to remove Teflon to allow repainting with something else?  Thinking long here, for when I get a rebarrel in the next year or so.  Would be nice to have the action, etc. the same as the barrel.

There have been rumours about big cats from all over the country.  The theory goes that a lot of private collections were let loose when the law on keeping dangerous animals changed.  I am still amazed that  there have been so few confirmed sightings.  The old bloke in the forest that lost stock found carcases that had had the flesh licked off the bone.  This was a few years back and he hasn't had anything too suspicious since. Though he did loose a number of fowl ranging from geese to chickens that left no apparent trace (feathers or body parts) this summer!!  Does Lito like cream teas and pasties?  If so he may get himself a contract down in Devon ;-)

Bad knees, how about bad backs?  I'm shuffling around like a geriatric.  The pain just kind of crept up on me.  Started as a bit of a twinge a few days ago, then got gradually worse.  Don't want anymore  time off as we are behind with the cull and only have 5 weeks left.  I have suggested I team up with someone so I can sit and wait for deer to come my way.  My partner can then do all the dragging :-)  Does that new drug do backs as well as knees?


Jon Beardsley <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 13:54:20 (ZULU)


 I get 4 to 5 a day from guys on here (Not them but their addresses) Then theres another one that comes from the "Postmaster" about my "Mail account". They are always in the 123 to 132 size so I never open anything that has an attachment that size.


 What is the link to the match info??? Thanks!!

Pat <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 14:11:57 (ZULU)

BRogers and Jon Beardsley  -  The Bextra is wonderful stuuf for any orthopedic aliment.  Alot of you may have heard of the Drug Celabrex, which is heavily marketed to the public.  What it is is an anti- oxidant that acts as an anti-inflamitory, reducing the fluid pressure in the joints which eases the pain.  The side effects of Celebrex were sleeplessness and it can be hard on the Liver, so when I was taking it the Doc had to do blood work every 6 months to check Liver function, as in some people the drug could harm the Liver......Not good.  Bextra is the next generation of Celebrex, which has less side effects and is a more powerful anti-inflamatory.  IT is expensive, but I have been using it for 6 months now for my knee and back and get alot of relief.  Like all of these drugs, it is a blood thinner, and before I had my back surgery I had to stop it a week ahead of time.  I noticed a real difference, especially in my titanium knee swelling some and a little pain. One good side effect of these drugs is they act act as mild blood thinners, which help prevent clotting and heart attacks.  Doc tells me no need to take the 2 asprin each day like alot of guys do to prevnet heart attacks.  I never had a heart problem and don't want one either.  Another good drug for pain is Ultracet, which is a non narcotic pain killer.  Not as strong as Vicatine or Demerol, but it is non-adictive being a non-narcotic a step above the Tylenol #3's.

Kevin of the GWN,  This thing with  Virus Emails seems to be a IPS problem. Until the ISP's put a stop to it buy filtering Emails for viruses I am afraid its an unfortunate part of the net.  I get 20 to 30 of these a day, and not just from Gun related sites.  I can assure you I didn't send it to you.

Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 14:37:19 (ZULU)

I tried celebrex and Viox for my knees, they did not work for me.  I use/d Arthrotec(sp) and it helped a lot.  I just had the second knee replaced.  I also slipped on ice a couple of years back and crushed a disc and vertabre in the middle of my back.  I have artheritis in my low back causing pain in my hips (pressure on the nerves).  I had the first knee done 10 months ago and it made that leg longer.  That put a twist on my hips and back.  Now that both legs are essentially the same length, most of the hip and back pain is gone.  I am on one aspirin per day for it's anti-clotting function so am not currently on the arthrotec.  The artheritis quack I was/am seeing put me on Nurontin(sp) and ultracet.  The nurontin is an anti-seisure drug but aids in 'nerve communication.'  The ultracet has just recently been replaced by a cheaper 'generic' drug.  When I went to get the prescription filled, it was substituted with talamar(?).  So, currently, I am on talamar, nurontin and one aspirin daily.

Sorry about the long non-gun/shooting post but it might help some...


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 14:55:04 (ZULU)

Guys I know the emails don't come from you, and my Virus scan juts deletes the attachmnets but in principle I want to take a hammer to this guys fingers.

Kevin of the Great White North <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 15:23:45 (ZULU)

Guys, the class of drugs Bill is talking about are COX-2 inhibitors.. do a search on the internet and you will get mountains of info..

Anyone notice that KenM, our resident Marine, has gone silent?  It would seem we are approaching that point where mobilization generates it's own momentum... here's hoping for a quick, final resolution with minumal loss of life.  

I don't really know why, but I have stopped getting as many fake virus emails... I now get mountains of porn advertisements... guess this virus menace likes medics.  

medicjim <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 15:27:58 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SniperQuest 2003<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

OK when 2 of you ask about the match guess it's time to post a reply here.

On Sniper Country homepage find SniperQuest - should be just below our Warning to Minors and Militants banner click there and it'll take you to what is currently posted for the Match.

Now if you're looking for WHAT the match will ain't there! We may release some general type information as what to expect in the near future. If there is specific information you're looking for and don't see contact me and I'll see what I can do.

Thanks again folks this is going to be a Match To Remember!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 15:58:29 (ZULU)


Up and ambulatory...kind of...

Large white dog got me up at "0 dark thirty" this morning. Guess since dad's home mornings now, she's back to her old schedule. Don't ever let anyone tell you german shepherds aren't smart! Of course, she is after her morning bisquit, as well.

Take a look at this edition of Accurate Rifle. Steven Dodd Hughes has done, the first, in a series of articles, on the Hagn single shot rifle. Martini and Hagn are teamed and make three sizes of actions. The large will take the big nitro express rounds. Also, Hagn has done a double rifle on the same  concept. Single shot actions start at $2,400.00. Damn! I want one...

I'm still getting virus ladden e-mails from gun folk. Along with a ton of porn stuff. Interestingly, the porn stuff has no virus infections. Which leads me to believe that we need to turn the net over to the porn folks and our problems will be over...;-)

Have gotten a few infected files from lister's, but most have come from "big@boss". Swine!

Working on that darn stock today. Hope to get it shaped and ready for finishing. Can't wait to shoot the big .300 winch. Have a Remington 700 Magnum action just waiting for a heavy lug and barrel...would be a waste if this one shoots. It's built on a pre-64 Winchester and has a Badger rail and mounts...starting to look like I need to spend more time shooting and less building rifles! Naw...!

All for now...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 16:29:40 (ZULU)


 Our shepard (Jaba the Mutt) is queen of the neighborhood and rules the roost.  She is our pride and joy.  When I come home after a long business trip she puts on the biggest "welcome back to the pack" demonstration you've ever seen.  I am the Alpha Male but Andy is just a litter mate to her and she will take no guff from him.

Ref: 6.5x284

 I just got a call from Chris at Premier.  They're building my 6.5-20x50mm as we speak.  I can't wait to get the system complete and set up and put my M1LR back on the LTR where it belongs.  The temperature here has been in the single digits for a couple of weeks and as soon as it breaks I'll chronograph my new loads.  If the ASC#2 will have rapid fire exercises I might leave the loooong rifle home and bring my M40A1 again.  Or bring never know.

Ref: Virus Mail

 I was dismayed to read that my address is now being used to send this trash.  Sorry Kevin (OTGWN).  By the way, I sat in a briefing by some Calgary Alberta SWAT guys this weekend.  They seem very squared away.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 16:40:11 (ZULU)

Kevin(Andys' Dad)----Bring them both. I for one want to see the 6.5 . Besides I just consulted the ASC# 2 Rules and there is nothing that prevents a competitor from using more than one rifle during the match acccept the ability to carry it, and you have Andy to take that duty.


Rod Hansen <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 17:15:01 (ZULU)

Case trimmers / TonyY :

have a look at

for info on the Gracey trimmer, as well as a better alternative, in my opinion : the Giraud.

(yep, I have a Giraud; it is quite simply incredible)

John L

John Leveron <>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 17:41:49 (ZULU)

Kevin(Andy's Dad),

Definately bring them both to the ASC#2. I'd like to see the 6.5x284. I'm bringing my 300WM that I just got built by Jeff Hicks aka Celt which I have a 6.5-20x50 LRT with Premier installed Mark 4 knobs on it. I can't come up with the funds for the Gen II yet but when I do I'll have the reticle replaced. Now if I can get some warmer wather to go practice it would be nice as I have no dope for my 300WM yet and will only have good dope to 400 for the match. Hopefully the ballistic programs will eb close for the rest of the ranges.

Rob01 <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 18:39:25 (ZULU)

Steyr SSG mag costs 59 euros for a 5 shot, 129 euroes for a 10 shot. Still waitin on price for HK mount.

Steve, car smells like a deep fat fryer, its great, just have to add salt and pepper and its like been back home with a fish and chip shop.

JR, AI paint sounds interesting, IWA should be a gathering. (i still aint got the cheque off, owe you a beer or two.

Jon B. big cats are one of my favourite subjects. we definately had one or two around the Yorkshire wolds, I personaly shot a lynx type of cat, about the size of a bobcat when i was 15, shot it with a 12 guage, figured it was some kind of mutant feral cat( i wished ever since that i hadn't slung it in a pond, but had it stuffed) and i  saw a sandy coloured cat( through a 6.5-20x50 leupold) on 2 occasions, and i have found roe deer (and sheep) up trees. First sighting was out of range over a km away i'd guess(pre lazer range finder and mildot master days) i figure it to be about the size of a great dane dog(shorter legs though) tail nearly as long as body(3/4) and it was chasing a roe kid(and it caught it) it was on neighbouring ground so i couldn't follow. second time i sensed something watching me, hairs stood up on back of my kneck, my dog nearly shit herself, and i saw a tail disapear into some hawthorn bushes, i was under gunned ( .22lr after rabbits) so i didn't dare follow it.

I plotted all the local sightings for years, one of my dads drivers saw one, and we had trash cans raided on the farm and didn't think it was fox also sheep killed and eaten, licked clean to the bone. I figured that it or they must be living (den) in disused railway tunnels that go through the wolds on the old, Hull - York line and adjoining branch lines. Sightings stopped in our area about 4 years ago, roe deer population has rapidly increased since and sheep fatalities have decreased. I figure the cat/s died out.

And yep this all came about with the introduction of the dangerouse Wild Animals Act(i forget which year) but every one with pets such as cougars, lynx, caymen(sp) etc had to basicaly pay high licence fees and turn thier back garden into a mini zoo, many opted just to dump the animals in the woods( i personaly know of a guy who had a Crocodile thing, caymen or whatever, about 4-5 foot long, he let it go at a pond in the woods, it lived happily until the winter, we found its carcase and one of my mates wanted cowboy boots from it, but it was already rotten. ( just like the b#$%^&%$# who sold me the jeep, he is on his way to jail, a broken nose and poverty. )

Mike M, Florida, now thats a good idea,

and i figure if it takes busted knees, a bad attitude, (a thirst) heamoroids( arse grapes) to qualify to be on here, I pass with flying colours on all counts.Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 18:46:15 (ZULU)

Rob01  Don't go out and buy the Gen 2 reticle because Dick thomas at Primier Reticles has very generously provided us with a gift certificate to have one installed - you might get lucky at the raffle.  Just another good thing about ASC# 2


Rod Hansen <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 18:48:21 (ZULU)


Easiest way to get rid of the old teflon would be to sandblast the sucka, I suppose there is some sort of acid chemical remover stuff, but I'd blast it..  The boss went up to Rosyth to pick the blaster up, don't know what it looks like.  Painting-wise, I have the gun for spraying, just need to build some sort of booth to hang the barrels for paint, need some sort of oven for curing, and some ventilation.  Got the ingredients for the AI paint stuff though, it's a mil-spec polyurethane type, rugged stuff..I believe it comes in OD Green as well as matte I said, I've a little more legwork to do on this project

The stuff is from Trimite, it's a 2 pack polyurethane, so you'll need primer, curing agents and they use a topcoat sealant type plastic.   A guy could phone Trimite(they're a UK company, in the US as well), and tell them the application(rifle barrel finish) and they'll set you straight.  Or you can wait for me, ha...

'Yote Bait,

I've said it once and I'll say it again, the best 'bait' for predators is a cardboard box full of live kittens.  They do all the callin for ya, just sit back and wait, used it on 'yotes after suggested by my great uncle, he was in his 80's at the time, I was 12, so I knew better than to question him and that it would work well..Think that'd work for the big kitties as well?  I think it would.  Best thing for big kitties is hounds though, the UK needs to draft some of those West-by gawd-virginny bloodhounds, if there's a kitty to be found they'll find 'em..


If you do decide to head to Nurnberg, email me before the show, as I'm spending a day at the H&K plant, and I'd hate to miss bendin an elbow over the bar with ya, not every day I get to Germany ya know.  When I find out the location of our stand, I'll give youse a shout, I think we are almost right next to AI, in the British Sector(that's what they said, my mind said 'is this Berlin?')..  I've been practising my German, how's this "Wahrend des Essens trinkt man fast immer Bier oder Wein.  Der Mund wassert mir schon."  I'm a little rusty yet..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 21:26:15 (ZULU)

Somebody asked about the History Channel program Stalk and KIll but apparently got ignored an deleted the post. Anyway, I thought it was excellent and very factual from what I could gather. The account of the Army's on again off again romance with Snipers was right on. They couldn't hardly stand to say the word until it became a have too.

Brogers <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 21:32:29 (ZULU)

"Bush 'Sick and Tired of Games and Deceptions' by Saddam

By Kathleen T. Rhem

American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 15, 2003 -- President Bush said Jan. 14 he is "sick and tired of games and deceptions" on the part of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein."

Here's a hint: When someone from Texas says they are "sick and tired" ... somebody's fixin' to get a whuppin'.

brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 22:30:37 (ZULU)

To all...

Email inbound to several of you. N/A. And Bcc to all.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 22:46:18 (ZULU)


a coupla questions, as I've decided to quit waitin' and get shootin' the 'Friday afternoon PSS'

Does anyone make a two stage trigger for a PSS? (the factory trigger requires a block and tackle to set it off)

The scope will probably be a M3-LR, with QRW bases and Burris rings. Is there anything likely to bite me in the a** with this combination?

As always, thanks for the advice (even when I'm too stupid to realise it!)

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 23:23:04 (ZULU)


129 Euros for a 10 shot SSG mag? There's a geezer over here selling them for 50 quid!

Have I found the holy grail - the one item on the entire planet that is cheaper in the UK than the rest of the world?

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 23:26:17 (ZULU)

Hello everybody,

 I am currently stationed in Japan.  I will be out in a few months.  I am starting to purchase my new rifle system piece by piece.  Looking at a Rem 700p in .308, with a Leupold Vari-X III M1.  I have been reading the roster here for a while now, and have to say that it is almost scary how much you guys know.  Just wanted to say "hello" to everyone and I hope that someday I can join the ranks of your knowledge.  I know that I'll need some help when I finally get home and start shootin'.  Until then, I'll keep reading and learning.  Take care guys.  


Ryan Sheaffer <>
Abbottstown, PA, USA - Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 23:55:10 (ZULU)


Have been working on my laminated stock this morn. The thing is like it's made from diamonds. Have been after it with my Nicholson #50 rasp and it barely dents the darn thing. Metal is all bedded and basic shaping is done. Now for the small detail stuff and finishing. Should have it done this week and shoot next week. After this I'm gonna view walnut stock work as "soft as butter".

Bisley Tiger: The trigger on your PSS is fine. Just tune it. Our Marines use that trigger and I have for years. See the SC archives for the tuning process. It's possible to tune these very light. A crisp 2 1/2-3 pound pull is no problem. Will agree that they suck...from the factory, but it's just a matter of re-adjustment.

Big Cats: Saw a cougar within 1/4 mile of my house a couple months ago. Love to see the big cats coming back into the country. Most people don't appreciate or understand them. If I could have one for a pet, I would. On the other hand, that would tick off my 18 lb grey tabby, "Tiny". Who we refer to as "buddha kitty".

German Shepherds: Kevin, Shotzi is the second white shepherd I've had and both have been exceptional. Understand the welcoming back to the pack, when you come home, after being gone. She dances AND sings. The most vocal shepherd I've ever seen. "Talks" to you all the time. More intelligent than half the folks I've worked with...she is a joy.

More later...going back to wrestle with the laminate some more.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 00:52:23 (ZULU)

Remington "safety" shroud-no direct knowledge, just long unfortunate experience with corporate anal protection policy.  Major bad liability juju if one of the LE "unsafe" weapons gets out of the authorized distribution channels.  Spare firing pin assembly is cheap insurance anyway.  Someone is gonna start making a replacement-check new Brownell's.

Knees- wonder if there's a relation between "does not deal well with idiots" profile and the bum knees?  Incorrect butt-kicking technique or overuse?

Fort Dodge has a product called Restor-A-Flex that's worked wonders with creaky horses & dogs.  Know a few trainers who've been known to hit the critter bottles for personal relief.  Try Don't know about stuff like this, but a Doctor told me the vet antibiotics are made on the same production lines as human drugs.  Few more rat hairs for stuff like this?

After getting knee back healthy, there's an exercise you can try.  Get up out of a chair (set so your thighs are parallel to ground) one legged 5 times on each leg.  Work up your reps carefully.  Builds up the muscles.  If you like challenge/pain-work toward doing this from a squat position.

WR Moore <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 00:55:35 (ZULU)

US Optics M40 Scope

Does anyone know where one of these may be available for sale?  US Optics has the first 100 comitted and won't be producing a new batch for a bit.



MtGoat <>
ID, - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 01:01:59 (ZULU)

Commentary of a Vet......


Who Says We Really Like Them?


Sig, the author, was a teen-aged Marine who marched and fought as a rifleman to and from the Chosin reservoir in Korea in 1950. He switched to the Army, and served as a Special Forces officer in Vietnam. After Vietnam he joined the CIA, and went back to Korea.

He's been there, done it, and has some specific thoughts on countries that don't "like" us.  

Is there anyone else out there who's sick and tired of all the polls being taken in foreign countries as to whether or not they "like" us? The last time I looked, the word "like" had nothing to do with foreign policy. I prefer 'respect' or 'fear'. They worked for Rome, which civilized and kept the peace in the known world a hell of a lot longer than our puny two centuries-plus.

I see a left-wing German got elected to office recently by campaigning against the foreign policy of the United States. Yeah, that's what I want, to be lectured about war and being a "good neighbor" by a German. Their head honcho said they wouldn't take part in a war against Iraq. Kind of nice, to see them taking a pass on a war once in while. Perhaps we needed to have the word "World" in front of War. I think it's time to bring our boys home from Germany. Outside of the money we'd save, we'd make the Germans "like" us a lot more, after they started paying the bills for their own defense.

Last time I checked, France isn't too fond of us either. They sort of liked us back on June 6th, 1944, though, didn't they? If ! you don't think so, see how nicely they take care of the enormous American cemeteries up above the Normandy beaches. For those of you who've studied history, we also have a few cemeteries in places like Belleau Woods and Chateau Thierry also. For those of you who haven't studied it, that was from World War One, the first time Europe screwed up and we bailed out the French That's where the US Marines got the title 'Devil Dogs' or, if you still care about what the Germans think, "Teufelhunde". I hope I spelled that right; sure wouldn't want to offend anyone, least of all a German!

Come to think of it, when Europe couldn't take care of their Bosnian problem recently,guess who had to help out there also. Last time I checked, our kids are still there. I sort of remember they said they would be out in a year. Gee, how time flies when you're having fun. Now we hear that the South Koreans aren't too happy with us either. Of course they "liked" us a lot better in June of 1950. It took more than 50,000 Americans killed in Korea currently enjoy, but then who's counting? I think it's also time to bring the boys home from there. There are about 37,000 young Americans on the DMZ separating the South Koreans from their "brothers" up North. Maybe if we leave, they can begin to participate in the "good life" that North Korea currently enjoys. Uh huh. Sure.

I also understand that a good portion of the Arab/Moslem world now doesn't "like" us either. Did anyone ever sit down and determine what we would have to do to get them to like us? Ask them what they would like us to do. Die?. Commit ritual suicide? Bend over? Maybe we should follow the advice of our dimwitted, dullest knife in the drawer, Senator Patty Murray, and build more roads, hospitals, day care centers, and orphanages like Osama bin Laden does. What with all the orphans Osama has created, the least he can do is build some places to put them.Senator Stupid says if we would only "emulate" Osama, the Arab world would love us. Sorry Patty; in addition to the fact that we already do all of those things around the world and have been doing them for over sixty years, I don't take public transportation, and I certainly wouldn't take it with a bomb strapped to the guy next to me.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not in favor of going to war. Been there, done that. Several times, in fact. But I think we ought to have some polls in this country about other countries, and see if we "like" THEM. Problem is, if you listed the countries, not only wouldn't the average American know if he liked them or not, he wouldn't be able to find them. If we're supposed to worry about them, how about them worrying about us? We were nice to the North Koreans in 1994, as we followed the policies of Neville Clinton. And it seemed to work; they didn't re-start nuclear weapons program for a whole year or so. In the meantime, we fed them when they were starving,and put oil in their stoves when they were freezing.

In a recent visit to Norway, I engaged in a really fun debate with my cousin's son, a student at a Norwegian University. I was lectured to by this thankless squirt about the American "Empire", and scolded about dropping the atomic bomb on the Japanese. I reminded him that empires usually keep the stuff they take; we don't, and back in 1945 most Norwegians thought dropping ANY kind of bomb on Germany or Japan was a good idea. I also reminded him that my uncle, his grandfather, and others in our family spent a significant time in Sachsenhausen concentration camp, courtesy of the Germans, and they didn't all survive. I further reminded him that if it wasn't for the "American Empire" he would probably be speaking German or Russian.

Sorry about the rambling, but I just took an unofficial poll here at our house, and we don't seem to like anyone.



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 01:36:59 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SniperQuest 2003<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

More new information added to the SniperQuest page. Once you get into the page click on the BadLands link then the SniperQuest 2003 banner and check out the Recommended Equipment Info and the motel, camping/RV areas.

As always keep checking back we're adding new stuff as we get it!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 02:05:35 (ZULU)


 Well said.  It'll take too long to pull our troops out.  Want a faster way to yank the world's collective chain?  Cut off the various "Aid" checks.  Those hypocritical bastadges' hate us all the way to the bank.   Give 'em nada, zero, zip--and watch the love pour our way.  

Big Cats:  I keep a wary eye on sightings north and west.  My ecologically sound mind will snap if one ambles down to my AO.  Sorry,  but bio-diversity revolves around my baby girls.  If I want big cats on my land, I'll move across the river or up north.  

Yote Bait (or anyone else with knowledge),

 What's the best way to get rid of pocket gophers?  Damn things are like chipmunks, but they dig disproportionally deep holes everywhere. I've tried shooting them, but they are masters of cover and concealment.  Whistling (like a chuck) doesn't get it either.  Poison isn't an option (livestock and ground water).  Any suggestions that won't take more than two months?  Maybe just flood the place with feline domesticus? cats.  Ha.

Joe M.  

Joe Mahon <>
Pocket gopher, Burgers, 4sale - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 03:03:31 (ZULU)


     I like it.  When is this guy going to run for pres.?    He has a good point about pulling out of those places that don't want us there.  I have been trying to understand these people who are protesting this up and coming war.  This whole "make love not war" thing just does not make sense.  Don't get me wrong I see nothing wrong with love making but these people are not looking at the reason behind the action.  In there minds all war is bad. What I mean is war is not good, but sometimes it is the only way to secure peace.  Hey I have an Idea!!  Lets all stick our heads in the sand, close our eyes, click our heels together 3 times and when we open them all the bad guys will be gone and the world will be full of peace, love and joy.  The people who started this hate us, if we don't take the fight to them, they will be more than happy to bring it to us.  Either way people are going to die.  


Man I need to get some sleep!!!!!!!!

Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 03:08:43 (ZULU)

Mike M & Master Rick- offline professional question coming, no germs.

Oops- Gooch & Joe M too.

WR Moore <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 03:37:30 (ZULU)

Gophers' Propane cylinder's like the ones for camp stoves and Lanterns is an option some people say. I would be very dubious near buildings> IF the field is too large. Poison grain is about the only other one. YOu push a piece of pvc in the ground and drop in a handfull. pull out the pipe and fill the hole. This keeps the livestock and other wildlife from partaking. The rat comes to clear the tunnel and can't resist the snack.  There's not enough poison to affect ground water. The rat's don't make it outside for the predators to eat.

Gosh, who could love a people that advocate human rights over tyranny, Treating women better than horses, and feeding starving populations before the creation of monuments and palaces for the Oil Rich Shieks and Kings, Warlords etc. Now wonder they feel threatened over there.  

Brogers <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 03:57:25 (ZULU)

Just got this on my E mail and "couldn't help myself" it had to be posted.

SECSTATE Colin Powell was recently approached by an Iraqi newspaper

> reporter and accusingly asked "Isn't it true that only 13 percent of young

> Americans can locate Iraq on a map?"

> Secretary Powell stopped, turned, and stated "Yes, it's true. But,

> unfortunately for you, all 13 percent are United States Marines.


Semper FI

Bomac <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 04:14:12 (ZULU)

 Radical Islam will never "like" or even tolerate a Christian or Jewish state or individual........What do they want us to do?........They want us to die.......So it seems that all those protesters, Germans,and Frenchmen who seek the affections of their enemies should take the obvious course to achieve their goal. Then the rest can be about the business of preserving Western Civilization.

Mark Smith <>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 04:21:01 (ZULU)

Ok folks how about a few of these:

Gen. George S. Patton, US Army:

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.

In case of doubt, attack.

Anyone in any walk of life who is content with mediocrity is untrue to himself and the American way.

Notice the date on this one!!

John Stuart Mills:

•War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.. (1868)

Lt.Gen. "Chesty" Puller, USMC:

All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time

Winston Churchill:

•Give us the tools and we will finish the job.

• Never give in. Never give in. Never give in.

Need I continue!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 05:05:08 (ZULU)

John Stuart Mills:

•War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.. (1868)


I have been looking for that quote for quite some time.  Thanks

There is also another one, goes something like:  Any man who is not willing to pick up arms in defense of his country can show no reason why he should be alowed to live in that country.  

Not sure if this is the actual words or who said it, but you get the point.


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 07:00:04 (ZULU)

MK 4, bloody well said my good man, absolutely spot on. It is unfortumately true, that exept for a few Brits, most of Europe have forgotten exactly who bailed the europeans out in the 40's and who kept the commies out for the next 50 years after. I guess now that the Germans and the French don't have a Feindbild (a specific threat or enemy) any more, they figure they don't need the UK and the US. The Euro's used to shit thier selves about massed hoardes of Soviet troops pileing across the North German plains, then came the fall of the Wall, and the opening of borders, the hoardes of commies came, but not in T72's but in Lada's, Trabbants and stolen Mercedes, and instead of raising the hammer and sicyle(sp) over the Reichstag, ( I mean Bundestag) they all signed on the damn benefit register, each family recieved massive handouts, some came stole and left, only to come back and steal more. Ah, bvut nowv das die kommies are unsere frviends, (bevcause ve pay zem lots ov benevits) Ve dovnt need zee Amevrican Teufel Hunde any movre. is the attitude of the left wing pascifist German population, the right wingers ain't much better in thier attitude to the US and UK. they have been able to live in a peacefull society, been handled with kid gloves, and molly coddled since War 2 and have grown soft and smug. Partly to blame is the Political leadership of the US and the UK since 1945. The German Military wasn't allowed to participate in any operations out side its borders after war 2, due to political correctness and not wanting to get anyones back up about having German troops back on thier soil, i can understand the reasoning, but with hind sight it was wrong. The Germans should have been required to participate in Korea, Vietnam,( in fact ex Wehrmacht troops in the French Foriegn legion where some of the best, most experienced troops the Legion has ever seen, we could have made good use of them) and all sorts of other little wars and disturbances around the world, to long have the people been used to the fact that the German Military don't go any where or do anything(exept a couple of SF units and some medics), The Bundeswehr is viewed by most here in Germany as an association for fat lazy big boys who are not capable of holding down a job in civvie street, The Germans(most) have no pride in thier Military and no sence of National pride( infact saying you are proud to be a German is bordering on the illegal here), they are a nation of pansies(with a few exeptions) and pascifists who have grown smug and lazy under the protection afforded them by the USA and The UK. Gerd Schroeder banked on that when he made his election speech, Edmund Steube, who would have been a far far better Kanzeler, was realistic and truthfull, unfortunately this lost him the election. It is time that the Krauts woke up to realism, they fail to understand that Saddam is a real danger, Iraq is comfortably far enough away (although perhaps we are not totaly out of range) for them to be able to shrug it off and say not our problem. I think the consensus of opinion in the UK is that we should have finnished the job in 91, which is indeed my own view, but better late than never. The whole of Europe is so busy bieng nice and politicaly correct that they are going to either choke on thier politicaly correct lies or fall over their selves with a failing economy. To the people voting in opinion poles about if they like the USA-Americans. I would ask hgow many of them actualy know an American and how many have actualy been to the USA, i suggest that most of the worlds opinion about the USA is formed by people paying attention to a TV screen.

Bisley Tiger, thats right, tune that trigger, read how on here in the articles bit. are you sure that was a 10 shot ssg mag, i got the price (trade,) direct from the horses mouth, the sales manager was in my mates shop enjoying a cold one and i got him on the phone. But they can sell the Leica 1200 cheaper in the USA than here, so nothing would surprise me, and add repairing Jeep Cherokees and Insuring Jeep Cherokees and Road tax to you list of what is cheaper in the UK.

JR, take care of your liver between now and the IWA, your gonna need it buddy, i'm on for sure. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
Germany - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 07:35:58 (ZULU)

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am now geting about 80-100 bullshit spam emails a day. I would be delighted if the a-hole that thought that this is funny got a nice smack upside the head! I end up deleting scores of messages, if you sent me one and I did not respond please do not take it as a personal affront, just send it again!

DesertDiz suggested a company called Kifaru for a source of fantastic packs while he was tied up with work and wartime production. I got my pack from them yesterday and it is amazing! If you cannot get a custom made pack from Mike Desmuke, these are really top quality..

Michael <>
CA, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 09:04:20 (ZULU)

Arthrotec 75 is a miracle drug!  Almost instant relief from the first dose.

I suspect that the reason France and Germany do not want us in Iraq is that we will find all of the French communications and air defense network upgrades (Roland) that they sold illegally to Iraq.  And the Germans... for some reason they love to help Arab countries build chemical weapon production plants.  They helped Libya also in a 6 SQUARE MILE facility buried under a mountain at Tarhuna.  Maybe its that Zyklon B genetic memory.

I still read but have almost given up on posting because of the degenerate cumstain that sends us 300+ emails every time we post something.  Can't one of you NSA crypties track this fuck down?  Just give us his name and town.  We'll take it from there.

MK4  excellent!

Be safe guys.

Bill0294 <>
Clearwater, FL, - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 12:06:05 (ZULU)

ooooowwhheeeeee, it is cold out today.  Minus 5 on the height of faren scale.

And it's a training day too.  Will be interesting to see zero dope checks for this temp. Out to 400 yardeters.

May have to engage some 'urban camo', inside the bed of the pickup w/tailgate down or maybe that ol' mummy sleeping bag ghillie I been workin on :)

Not as bad as those guys Kevin was talkin aboot from Calgary, CA, minus 30 winters.  Dang. For some reason, raisins come to mind.


Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
K town(freeze town today), WI, US of good ol' A - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 13:20:35 (ZULU)

Our dive team has cold water recovery training tomorrow. If you have to cut a hole in the water to get in.....


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 13:34:44 (ZULU)

Bill, that sounds about right, i used to wonder about the froggy missiles bieng shot at our boys in the Falklands. The frogs and boxheads also forget that they export to countries where export wouldn't be possible if US and or Brit service personell where not there keeping the damn peace. Frigging parasites if you ask me,

I am just reading an interesting artikle on the SWS 2000, ( this is the rifle i saw the prototype of in 2001 that was chambered for 300UKM (orwhatever it was), it is a very interesting looking rifle, i am going to try and get an example to play with and write about.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 13:56:18 (ZULU)

Pete L - maybe it's time for the families of the folks killed by those exocets to sue France for thier loss... There is probably a 'manufacturer fault' precedent in the world court by now...we all know that the exocet was made 'evil' by it's maker and forced the Argentine pilot to fire.

MK4 - I'm with you... Perhaps if the United States and it's real allies emulated the rest of the world and became singularly SELF SERVING, they might better relate to us. And if not... f*ck em'.  Imagine how secure our borders would be if we redeployed all our troops that currently protect ingrate countries....

I still say we give all terrorists treament equal to the loving care they gave the innocent men, women and children in the WTC... burn them alive, rip them into tiny pieces and bury them in a pile of debris.

medicjim <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 15:37:42 (ZULU)

Jim, thats a good idea, and i often think what the German attitude would be if some git had flown into one of the damn european bank buildings in Frankfurt, be easy enough, its only a right turn at the airport and about a 1 min flight, or maybe the damn Eifel tower, these pascifists may then have been up in arms a bit, they have idiots here who are talking about going top bagdad and forming a human shield, well if they are taking donations for the travel costs i'll chip in, we'd be as well rid of em anyway.

I've got my beady eye on at the mo, there is a 1.5-6x42 S&B sniper scope, adjustable turrets etc on, and don't none of you dare out bid me !!! i want if for my marlin.

This SWS 2000 looks interesting, they seem to be using Lothar Walther barrels, the one i saw had a Heym. They are using McMillan stocks, except for the Tactical version, which they call, NOWAR  ?? makes me wonder, which has some tactical wood on it. but i think the name Sniper Weapon System has changed after the bad press with the belt way sniper, ( i hate political correctness) but the germans ban anything weapon wise that ios related to the military, so you can't get away with calling any rifle a sniper rifle any more, its all bull shit, Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 16:01:33 (ZULU)

Pete - You mean that if an airplane full of Germans and commandeered by terrs flew into a large group of Germans on the ground, resulting in slaughtered baby Germans and a months long job of picking up pfennig sized pieces of human flesh which was once your buddy, you don't think the German people would turn the other cheek and give those terrorists planners/financiers a big hug and a sloppy kiss?

Oh well, with the new, close ties to the true pioneers of the limp handshake, the French, Germany will get there someday.

medicjim <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 16:14:11 (ZULU)

Hounds used to hunt big cats!  How cruel!  Haven't you heard, us modern Brits think hunting cuddly-wuddly creatures with dogs is inhuman ;-)

Thanks Titan for the drug info.  Off work for a few days now after work advised me to.  Going to see the Doc tomorrow, see what he says.

JR, thanks for the info.  I don't need it quick, so I'll just wait to see how you get on.

You guys that post pictures on-line; how do you do it?  I finally got the pictures I took when me, Pete, Val, and Marco went to Scotland last summer(including another cloggy, named Sander and a Bavarian!).  Also got a couple of snaps of my cuddly-creature-hunting hounds in with the group photo (well they mark deer and track shot animals, does that count?).


Jon Beardsley <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 16:48:37 (ZULU)


Great day. 14 degrees in sunny AL with a 15 to 20 mph "breeze" outta the north.  Also about 2 inches of powder over ice.  Got 1 bad knee (torn ACL with a cartilidge flap), bulging disk in back and a bad attitude. Decision time, go to the range (I used to work in a freezer warehouse & this ain't nuthin) and release some aggression (f**king crazy drivers) or go down to the local "peace protest" with a sign that says "Bomb Iraq Now, Down with Sadam", cause I definitely believe in protesting against peace . :-)  On second thought with the knee & back I probably couldn't run fast enough to get away from the peaceniks (they get downright unpeaceful when rilled).

To steal a line from Joe M., "I crack me up."


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 17:07:26 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon:  

    Pocket gophers?  I used to trap the rascals when I was a kid.  Would get 20 cents apiece for them and had to turn in the severed front feet.  I've had no luck in recent years trapping them.....somehow lost the knack.  They just plug the hole and the trap, so.....I've taken to opening the hole and sitting back a few yards with a rifle or shotgun.  They come up for a look around and.....its curtains for the varmint.  I think BRogers poison method would be the better option for dealing with hordes.  Cats as a may solve the gopher infestation, but they WILL become a whole problem unto themselves.....but you wanted the target practice anyway didn't you?  

    Twenty below this morning and hunkered down by the wood burning stove.  

Jerry S. <>
Frozen Tundra Country, MN, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 18:02:59 (ZULU)

To all that responded to my earlier mail about triggers for the PSS - thanks guys, I probably will end up adjusting the factory unit. What I was trying to ask was can I get a two stage trigger?

I've got two stage on most of my other rifle, and have a kinda soft spot for 'em

PeteL - there was some media interest in recently de-classified docs about the Falklands. Whilst the Falklands fiasco was in progress, the UN put an arms embargo on Argentina. That meant that France couldn't supply any more Exocets to the Argies, nor could they give them any tech. support, (Argies having problem with mating the Exocets to the avionics of the Skyhawks and Pucara's).

So, what the French did was to supply Exocets and tech staff to an 'un-named' third country, and by magic these Exocets somehow appeared in Argentina.

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 20:15:25 (ZULU)


Yeah France and Germany...  You know, I wouldn't be pissed if Germany stood alone and said, 'hey guys, we're staying out of this'.  PeteL, you know this, you have to understand Germans.  You couldn't imagine how shamed this country was after WWII, I mean the people were ashamed to be deutschelanders.  Just think of the whiplash those people got when at one minute they are the next Roman Empire(then the stupid bastads try invading Russia in winter, hello, remember Napoleon?) and the next minute they are crushed.  Again.  But this time definitively.  From ubermann to gar nicht.  It's like they woke up from a trance and said, oh shit what were we thinking?  You know, I've always wondered what they thought of the movie 'Saving Private Ryan', what are war films like in German cinemas?  Anyway, there is a guilt complex in German society, and rightfully so.  But France has no steenking excuse, they are just being French.  And for France to form this 'alliance' with Germany is pure rubbish, it means f'all...  What does NATO actually lose if they kick France the hell out?  France being the cornerstone of peace negotiations and all.  They think so anyway!  I know french people, have friends who are french,  who hate the French, so why can't I.  France only does what benefits France, in manufacturing, import/export, and foreign policy.  Sounds good, but all that means is if it's not French, or wasn't comandeered by a frenchman, it is despised in France.  Just for the simple fact that it wasn't French!!!  seriously!  What are they gaining or losing by this stunt other than air time?   blowhards..

Oh wait, I just heard Russia and China said they wouldn't support our troops in Iraq, yet..  guess Saddam's gotta get the sickle and star scrubbed off those bombs first, eh..

You know, everyone has been a little too friendly lately, it was time to throw the chips down to see who was on whose side, and the old enemies are comin thru in spades.

No one hates the US.  It's envy disguised as hate.



JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 20:50:48 (ZULU)

Some of those big hairy headed dudes that ride Harleys and wear "colours" have "FTW" written on them or their gear,means "f#ck the world".Take care of yer real mates and the rest can burn.Sounds ok to me.

Yesterday young folks were gettin on a big boat to go to war and the peaceniks were protesting on the wharf.The politicians were there mouthin off,some of the young'uns arent to sure that they're doin the right thing,they dont need that shit on the day of the deployment.There better not be any spitting or bad behaviour on their return.I was to young in 71 to do anything about it but things are different now.



Gavan Willis <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 21:46:27 (ZULU)

Deputy Doug,

Heat wave out there in WI eh, thermometer in my yard was -21 degrees this morning. Finally cold enough to go out ice fishing. :)

Sarge and Mk4

Great posts guys!

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 22:10:13 (ZULU)

Pocket gophers ... I'll leave that one alone. Moving on ...

Guys, I guess I just don't get it.

These protesting sons of bitches have already forgotten that the worst terrorist attack in history happened right here!

Our people were jumping out of the buildings to their deaths, landing on the first responders and a year later, these bottom feeders have already forgotten. Burns my ass up.

I have a vision of Baghdad.

It is an enormously vast parking lot in the middle of the desert with a McDonalds parked right in the center and a car lot sized Ole Glory flying proudly from the fucking pole.

F23k the Russians, French, Germans, Chinese and anybody else that doesn't "like" us.

Glasknost my Cajun Ass. I STILL don't trust them SOBs.

Robert, Doug ... stay warm bros. S'posed to get down to 22 or 18 here. That don't happen often in SE Tejas.

I feel for you Northern fellas (don't want to say it too loud though).

Hope the P word (don't want to say it at all) doesn't go off.

Drive safe all,


brian k. sain <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 22:47:46 (ZULU)

I conversed with several other Southerners today and we have a request for you Yankies. YOU CAN TAKE THIS FRIGGIN SUB-ARTIC COLD WEATHER BACK ANY TIME NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. The only people down here that like this stuff are plumbers and morticians! Jeezzzz, 10th Mountain division my ass. No way Jose, and they actually volunteer to freeze their asses off!!

Pocket gopher? Is that anythin like a cute little chipmonk?


I have this picture in my mind of a thousand little rodents walking around on nubs. Cruel dude!

BBBBBBBBolllltttttt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 22:48:52 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon asked about getting rid of the pocket gophers.

Check this out

It pumps propane into the holes / tunnels and then detonates it.

Sounds like fun even if you don't have pests.  Pricey though, seems like you could rig something yourself for a lot less.

Steve <>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 22:50:51 (ZULU)

I have a rem 700 adl 7mm mag that i would like to make more accurate. I have heard that belted mags are not a good choice because they are not accurate.  I was wondering if the belted casing would have a big effect on accuracy? If it does should i buy a new gun or just convert it to a different caliber.   Just to give you guys some info, i am using the gun as a hunting rifle and target rifle. Any help would be great and thanks for such a great website.

mayernm <>
- Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 23:40:22 (ZULU)

Please follow the link...

Dear American Soldier,...

Dean Miller <>
Buford, GA, USA - Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 23:59:50 (ZULU)

On the packs. Nice looking stuff.

On making belted magnums shoot well. I first suggest you get a book called "The Accurate Rifle" read it cover to cover. Then get some good reloading manuals and read all the tuff they have on accuaracy.

Now have a smith free float your bbl and bed the action.

Now you have to reload. Get a bunch of light loads and fire form the brass, in your chamber. Neck size only. Cut all brass to same length. Debur primer pockets and work up a load. If its a 7mm I have had good luck with 168s from Sierra for accuracy. Get a BT soft point for hunting, something around 165 grain will be good for HD work or my favorite a 150 BT for all around 7mm work.  Just slowy work up a load that is very accurate. Dont just go looking for velocity. Get a load with a small extreme velocity spread (I expect no more than 15fps over ten rounds) This will make the difference at 1000 yards.

This is a start.

OK where is the Catshooter?


MikeMiller <>
CA, - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 00:15:00 (ZULU)


 I thought this link might be a funny web-joke (like Bill Murray and his gopher solutions...) But holy gopher explosives, batman--it's for real!  I LMAO anyway, joke or not.  What a fun way to do some pest control a'la caddyshack.  I love the pictures with the dude all hunched over as the mini-cratering charge throws dirt all down his back with him standing just off ground zero!  My kinda toy. Here's the packing list...check out the safety gear:

1 - RODEX 4000 Applicator

                     1 - 50 foot of Hose

                     1 - Torch Handle

                     2 - Regulators

                     1 -Hard Hat with a built-in face shield screen

                     1 - Plastic Safety Goggles

                     2 - NRR-29 Loud Noise Rated Ear Protectors

                     2 - Ear Plugs

                     APPLICATOR COST IS: $1395.00

(Note the double protective everything)

Since I like the sound of blowing these critters up, and I think I can do this cheaper, I will make my own contraption.  Shooters' foam plugs backed up with my flight helmet.  Cookbook from the 18C course and a few simple ingredients.  Use a dust-initiator charge calculation, substitute FAE style mixtures...wheeeee-haaaa!  Only problem left is borrowing a dozer to backfill the really big holes that I get in place of the really small ones.  Ya know, this could be a factor with the wife...She'll go "let me see...we got small holes now and you're gonna fix this by making them bigger?????  And this will save us money how?"  Once I solve her riddle, it's off to the demo range.  Bawwwwhawwwhaww.

I like the buried granular poisons.  That'll get it done, and not cause me to wait much to put ten head of beef back there.  You see, I want steak when I get back home from yonder!  But in the long run, blowing them up has a nice playful ring to it....heheh.  I will definately have to fire off a few test shots before I go (but not in the pastures).  

The internet is amazing....even the ACME pest control company has a site.  Webmaster is some dude named Wile E.  Reminds me of that XM-142 instant road cratering kit (also a ACME R&D venture).  Now there was a hare-brained idea.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
Eau Claire, Wisconsin, USofA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 00:21:15 (ZULU)

Since somebody is bound to ask:

XM142 Cratering Kit:

A ten foot (or so) tripod with one leg set up with "rails".  At the base of railed leg, you get a 40 lbs shape charge, at the top of the rail way up in the sky, a 40 lbs cratering charge with a rocket motor strapped to it's ass.  In theory, the detonation delay was timed so that the rocket powered bomb would enter the hole being created by the still-expanding jet of the shape charge.  The rocket and the shaped charge were electrically fired with a delay to the the rocket of a coupla nano-seconds.  The crater charge goes off at the end of the rocket burn via non-electric triggers way down in the ground.  In theory.  In reality, the delay cap was temp-sensitive as hell, going off whenever it felt like it.  This resulted in one of these rocket powered bombs launching on an "excursion" with Murphy at the controls--it landed on a platoon of nearby combat engineers.  The non-electric trigger functioned flawlessly, though.  

 I got one of these things, looked at it for a while...and told my team something like "this is Wile E. Coyote's idea..."  We took it apart and shot the stuff separately.  Used the tripod for targets on another range.  

This is one of those devices that we just don't talk about much...and nobody wants to own up to inventing it...

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, January 24, 2003, at 00:38:53 (ZULU)


Bisley Tiger asked about double set triggers for Rem 700's: Can't find any factory versions, however Brownell's, Inc. lists a "Kepplinger Single Set Trigger", pn# 495-100-700 in their catalong. Price somewhere in the$110.00 USD range.

Hope this helps. Leave it to us yanks to jump to the "why would you want to do that" phase. I have a lovely Mannlicher Carbine in 6.5 X 57 with double set triggers. It's a peach.


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 01:29:45 (ZULU)

Bolt:     Nubs?  Sheesh!  I whacked 'em first.  The dog and I had an agreement.  I got the front feet, and he got the carcass. The county paid the bounty because they were such a nuisance.  Ever try swathing grain or cutting hay with those blasted gopher mounds in the field?  Those were the days when pheasants and hungarian partridge were a common sight.  No more.  Lost habitat and hard winters pretty much did them in.

Jerry S. <>
Frozen Red River Country, MN, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 02:10:21 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

  I had my sights set on a Rem 700p in .308 for my first LR rifle.  But i met with Gooch the other day and he advised me of the Winchester M70 Stealth.  If someone could set my mind straight as to which one to get, i'd appreciate it.  (i have done my research and both guns look equally nice)  I would like to order the gun off the internet, that way it'll arrive by the time I get back in the states.  (i'm in japan right now, so that's the only way i can order)  I found the 700p on the web for about $750, but i can't find the M70 stealth.  so any site from which i could order the Stealth would be great too.  Thanks alot.


Ryan Sheaffer <>
Abbottstown, PA, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 03:11:29 (ZULU)

With a little work you can adapt that rodex unit to work with acetylene and oxygen.  Now we are talking serious BOOM.

When I was in college, I showed some guys I worked with a demonstration that I saw in a college welding class.  The demonstration was of the explosive power of 50/50 mix of acetylene and oxygen.  You set a torch to a neutral flame, and then snuff the flame, and insert the torch tip in a balloon, filling it to the size of a handball.  Then relight the torch, and touch off the balloon.  Word got around about this, and one night some brain surgeon with a cigarette in his mouth was filling a trash bag with a torch.  Needless to say, he took out a bunch of windows, and came pretty close to taking himself out too.  I guess God looks after fools.

John <>
Liberty, TX, - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 03:26:53 (ZULU)


     I would choose the Stealth over the PSS. Problem is that at this time there doesn't appear to be any Stealths' available. The thing to do would to get ahold of someone at one of the large Winchester distributors and order one of the next production run (about June). Set up FFL transfer and shipping, lay a deposit down to show that you're sincere. This method will get you one. Other than that, watch the Emporium and keep your eyes on the websites like GunsAmerica.


    Maybe I'm behind the curve, but I recently heard that the 2nd gen FN SPR is available in .300WSM now. Anybody have any experience with one yet? Looks interesting to me.


   Not a flame, but I had the distinct impression that Jon was looking for a two-stage trigger, not a double set! I've never come across a two-stage for a 700.

My cure-all for our present world situation,

                                           If I had my way:

The US would quit the UN and throw them out of our country.

France and Germany would become non-entities. They would just cease to exist. No trade, no travel, no aid, all citizens deported, etc.

All US troops withdrawn and all foreign aid stopped to those countries that will not support us. All funds seized.

Create large smoking holes in the desert floor where Mid-Eastern cities used to be.

Seal off all of our borders, deport all foreign-born people who are not legal immigrants and who do not become citizens of the US.

Become an armed camp if we have to, but settle this shit for once and for all, because if we don't do it now the next government we have will make Clinton look hard line right wing!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 05:19:05 (ZULU)


Alan, reread the post from Bisely Tiger. OOPS! Well, at least I gave him an option...even if it was wrong...

Like you, I haven't seen a double set trigger for a Rem 700. I'm sure a competent gunsmith could set one up, but it begs the question, why?

Been doing some ballistics calculations this eve for the .300 Winch mag(not them sawed off little things, of late, mind you). Have data from several shooters that looks promising. What I find interesting is that my ballistics program shows the 175 Sierra MK ahead of the 190 Sierra MK all the way to 1000 yards. Difference isn't much, I'll grand you(about 2 MOA), but it's there. Interestingly, the 175 has the identical drop that my 6.5 X 284 does, with a 142 gr. Sierra MK, at 600 yards.The 6.5 X .284 kick it's ass at 1000...

Just another reason for my high esteem of that cartridge!

Have one box of factory Federal 190 gr. Match for the rifle. All else will be handloads. Will be prepping and loading break in ammo and test ammo while the stock dries and is being finished. Also, discovered that I need to order a set of Badger rings. That is unless I want to un-mount one of the scopes on my other rifles. NOT!

Will do initial testing at 100 yards and break in...then will work across the course to 600. Am going to mount my 16X Luppie MK 4 for now and see how that works.

Any words of wisdom or advise it appreciated.

Alan, I liked your description of what we need to do to get America back to where it belongs. Wish it could happen, but won't. Politicians have a vested interest in NOT letting it happen, as the minority vote is thier meal tickets, in many cases. Best to not get me started...we agree.

Best thing that could happen is a military coup, shoot some politicians, and put things back on I've been labeled a radical for sure. Watched to many good men spent for what appears to be nothing. Seems like we are the only ones really interested in keeping America American...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 07:42:12 (ZULU)

Dean M.

I'd volunteer to patrol a couple miles of border in exchange for some of that ground at the right price. A few sensors and a few of those rodex 4000 things every 100 yds or so oughta do it, or claymores.


Once again man, sign me up!!!

Ryan S.

Re: M70 Stealth complete. email me.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 11:39:34 (ZULU)

Hi Fellas,

Got another virus today.  'Nothing unusual there' you say, but this one mentions 'In Review' in the subject and 'Badlands' as the title for the infected attachment.  So just a 'heads up' really folks, WE are definately being targeted.  I have written to the varios ISPs whose addresses are in the message source, but I'll paste the bumpf below in case there are others out there that may be able to do something with it.


X-From_: Thu Jan 23 20:35:15 2003

Return-path: <>


Delivery-date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:35:15 +0000

Received: from [] (

by with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1)

id 18bo48-0003a5-00

for; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:35:12 +0000

Received: from Rwv ([]) by

         (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68376U62000L6200S0V35)

         with SMTP id com for <>;

         Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:35:08 -0800

From: tteljawr <tteljawr@omi.o>


Subject: To In Review

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;


Message-Id: <>

Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:35:12 +0000


Content-Type: text/html;

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


<iframe src=3Dcid:TiEBV4p9M height=3D0 width=3D0>





Content-Type: application/octet-stream;


Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

Content-ID: <TiEBV4p9M>

Jon Beardsley <>
- Friday, January 24, 2003, at 12:22:59 (ZULU)

Ref: Road Craters

They are just too much fun.  I did one in school years ago it was the old fashioned deliberate type with five holes dug using 45# shaped charges then filled with AMFO cans.  Man can a guy move some dirt!!!

It's 6 degrees F here.  The lakes are frozen more than I've ever seen them.  I don't even want to think about trying to operate out there for extended periods.  Wood stove and Wild Turkey for me.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 13:06:59 (ZULU)

>>>....thermometer in my yard was -21 degrees this morning. Finally cold enough to go out ice fishing.<<<---Rob Opp

Maybe we don't know the proper way to cast a ballot in a Presidential election but we sure know where to be in winter!

This morning broke at a balmy 35* with wind chill of 20*.

It's good to be in the sunshine.


Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 13:15:48 (ZULU)

Global Warming , Yeah Shure !!

Steven Dzupin <>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 13:34:10 (ZULU)

  Those who shot ASC#1 will remember our little May blizzard last year... Well, you should have been here in the mountains last nite!  Temp. right at 0 and winds in the 20s with gusts of god knows what. Schools closed today due to drifted snow.  Will haul more wood today and huddle{not a manly term but accurate} around the stove.

 LTR question??? Have asked before, but does anyone have any first hand experience with 55gr. bullets through a 223 LTRs 1 in 9 bbl.?? Ballistic tips ideally.

outa here

Markwell <>
Dreaming of spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 14:44:34 (ZULU)

Mildot-Fluent Rosterfarians:  

I'd appreciate some informed advice.  I'm scoping a precision rifle, and having trouble choosing between regular Mil-Dots and a reticle with 2-moa tick-marks (Nightforce's NP-2R).  I need a calculator (or a Mildot Master) to get anywhere with Mil-Dots, but I might even be able to do ranging-calculations for the 2-moa tick-mark reticle without taking my boots off.  

'Course, it's a little bit course, compared to figuring 1/4-dot increments, but my math is so slow - the target is unlikely to still be there by the time I figure out how far it is...

Bill Rogers:

I've read your comments on Shepherd's ranging-circle reticles.  Have you looked at the NXS NP-1RR (sort of a cross between the Shepherd reticle and old Dragunov ranging scale)?  Not having used anything but the old ART scopes or Mildots, this NP-1RR looks as if it might be really fast (and it "should" work out to 1600 yards).  What do you think?


Earl North <>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 15:37:06 (ZULU)


Anybody got an idea on sorting LC match brass, other than by year and weight? Should I sort out only the once fired and pitch the rest or save 'em all for the M-14? I've got some back to 1963 and as new as 1985. Predominately 66 and 65. 400+. They still have the red sealant around the primer and the annealing is still clear. Resized perfectly. Thanx,


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 16:06:35 (ZULU)

Rob Opp, Ice Fishin ??   Never ett a Ice Fish. Whatsit taste like?  :)

Sain,  Why do I suspect you had something to do with creation of that Rodex thing?  Silly Cajun images come to mind.  Luge like!!

Joe:  XM142,  sounds like a new nickname for one of the Lt's around here, not the one I talked about before. This one is a CF on legs.

Kevin,  thought I came across another snow storm on the way home last Sunday. Turned out to be road salt. Geez, some states go nuts with that stuff.

Acehigh John, incomimg mssg. Yeah, cuttin hole in the 'hard water' just to go diving.  We are a sadistic bunch. Mineral oil in the chainsaw bar luber thingy keeps the lakes clean though.

Found out yesterday that subzero had virtually no effect on elevation zero. Surprised me.  However, that damned 25-30 mph 3/4 value wind, now that was a lesson learner. ('I know, thats's no wind - This here is wind', soundin like Croc Dundee)

It's a balmy 6 today.  Gonna go do it again. New kid was pretty squared away with thermals & over pants. Made me proud. Kid never shot past 200 yardeters before. Nice grouping of 2.5" at 400 in that cold & wind. Pretty decent. Heck, I even made sure he got overtime pay for it. He offered to come out & train on his own time!

Gotta go get rid of some lead.


Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
K Town, WI, US of Proud A - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 17:45:50 (ZULU)

Hot Dang!!  Just realised it's the annivarsary of the date of my emmergence into this world.  Bad back, Bad knees, Bad attitude(sometimes), but still young at heart. The wife always says, "Go ahead and act childlike on occasion, just don't be childish." Hmmm... suspicious 44 year old man acting childlike.... sounds like a recipe for disaster. After all, I'm not Cajun!!  hee hee

Thinks I might go over to Eagle Trading Post & see my buddy Freddie about something in, oh, say, 30 plus caliber !! That 450 Marlin Pete L speaks fondly of sounds interesting. Or was that 'Fondling' Pete?  :)  Need a 'new Bear gun' (so the wife says)for this May in land of the Canucks. 45-70 seemed to work ok last year, but who am I to question? Is it okay to use that term?(Canucks) I always thought it was a friendly term,  the wife says it is a slur.  Not intended. Hmmm.  She sure says alot.  Ouch!!!  Didn't see her over my shoulder. Bad back actin up suddenly again!

Have a great day gents.  I'm going to.


Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
K Town, WI, US of Proud A - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 18:28:53 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger,

I am suprised nobody mentioned that the Jewell trigger is available with a 2-stage option.   I think it is an extra $30 USD.   I would look on the benchrest boards like for the best prices.

Check that one out, I just looked real quick at Bruno's and they list the 2-stage HVR(check out the review on this site)for $180 USD.

Hope this helps.

Tim <>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 18:29:43 (ZULU)


Please ignore the following:



You cannot beat my se-cure-itty.  I won't ever read anything you send, because it will never arrive in my in box.  You are too big a punk assed, petty little geek to take on real security--and mine is run of the mill.  Ha!  If you are such a smart little girl (no matter which, yer still a panty-waist girlie-girl to us), then bring it on.  Show me something, dog-breath.  Send me one of your best.  You can't because you are just a minor prop on the stage of life, a stage that is dominated (sorry for the big word, I'll wait for you to get your dictionary) by real men of integrity.  Yep, furn-e-ture...nothing more.  

So send me your best shot dweeb.  And maybe when you are done goofing around in cyber-land you might actually get the chance to lose your a guy named Bubba in the big house.  After all, that is the only sex you'll ever experience outside of yourself.  You are much too In-COMP-A-TENT to get it done.  Sex with another human (except your ass-rape mentioned above) or an email virus sent to me...just to clarify.

Since I will never hear from you or your work, I'll laugh at you now.  Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.  

Joe M.  

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, January 24, 2003, at 19:00:38 (ZULU)


 Welcome to the site.  As in "the site" for learning LR shooting. You are looking for a .308 precision riffle?  My one and only remmy is a Mod 7 I bought for my son.  The barrel is destined to be a pump handle in my barn.  Nuff said, and we'd put that topic to bed--except that this riffle's doesn't have one that remotely qualifies...heheh.  I have two stealths in .223, and a first gen FN-SPR in 308(mostly a winney).  These shoot better than I will for a long while yet; and I am extremely happy with all.  The SPR is controlled-round feed (pre-64), otherwise, it is hard to tell it from the stealth (pushers).  This may be an option to consider--check GA or email me, I see them all the time.  If budget is a issue--think savage.  That is the shootinist' damn cheap stick on the market.  But when I was in the market, I read the archives and there are numerous debates about remmy-vs-winney in there...and I put that in the equation.  In a nutshell, the remmy is the place to start for a full custom , advanced rig--and the winney works well enough out of the box for beginers to intermediate shooters.

The most important thing is quality optics and mounts.  Be prepared to spend some cash here.  Don't cut any corners.

For the record:  I may be crazy, but I am rational about it!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, January 24, 2003, at 19:31:04 (ZULU)

Leupold M3 Ultra Info:

I found a supposed actual US military M24 M3A Ultra on eBay but wanted some additional information from Leupold before I would bid on the item and this is what I found out.  The eBay seller said the only markings on the scope was the patent number, no model, no serial number, but it did have round mil-dots.

I exchanged several e-mails with Garth Kendig, Leupold Customer Service Product Specialist Group, who was very helpful.  He said I should be very cautious when considering an Ultra.  He said many of the early ones had component parts that were glued in place rendering the scope unserviceable!  Some Ultra models ended up on the commercial market, though most were sold to the military.

He indicated that the serial number would be found under the turret housing and there should be a year code in the serial number.  For example: 85-00312 indicates that it was produced in 1985.  Any scope produced in 1987 or earlier is glued.

I for one don't want to buy something that can't be fixed, and secondly may have questionable history (why no serial number).  Some of you may have already known this but for others like myself I figured it was worth passing this information on.


Byron <>
CA, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 20:08:33 (ZULU)

Acehigh John,

You can send me all of that once fired LC65 & LC66 Match brass. IT's USELESS! I'll even pay shipping!

But seriously, it should be good stuff - albeit a little heavy (I was really flattening primers on a 45gr Varget\175smk load last fall.

No need to sort it, just deprime, swage or cut the crimp, full length resize and shoot once in your stick. Then you can trim to length, debur the flash hole, and uniform the primer pocket..... they aren't LAPUA cases, but they are plenty good..... I put 10 shots onto a 3" spotter at 600 yards last summer with cases that were fired for the first time in my rifle (will provide picture and info on the witness pulling the target if requested)........ I have about 5 gallons worth of them with theprimers still in and I would LOVE some more in same condition.....

Steve ~Hockeyref <>
Feeling the effect of the arctic express, Shoveling Snow in , Southest PA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 20:33:57 (ZULU)


You know anyone shooting those spaceguns with 90JLK's using 5r barrels?  I'm doin some figgerin, ha, trying to get a 6.5" twist in the mix....


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 20:46:44 (ZULU)

All this talk about acetylene brought to mind this video I shot New Years.  The first one was a turd, didn't make much noise.  The 2nd one was a dud, it just flamed up.  The 3rd one was heard at the neighbors about 3 miles away.  Click on my name, or cut and paste the URL I left below. Years/bomb2.mpg

Jared Hunter <>
San Antono, Tx, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 20:48:15 (ZULU)

Acetylene is kind of an unstable gas.  Look up "alkyne" on the internet.

You are gonna look really funny with all your hair burned off and blisters all over your face.

medicjim <>
- Friday, January 24, 2003, at 20:59:46 (ZULU)


 Yes, i understand the chemical properties of acetylene, why do you think I was the one behind the lens where it's safe?  A guy I worked with pulled the ol cigarette in the mouth while filling the trashbag.  He still hears ringing in his ears.  Redneck fireworks are indeed dangerous.

Jared Hunter <>
San Antonio, Tx, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 21:11:55 (ZULU)


I bought a PSS 3 months ago and I'm quite disappointed with it. I like 223 and have an AR-15 and mini-14. I got the PSS as my precision/tack driving piece, and it shoots the biggest groups of all my rifles (2.5 inches @ 100yds) even the mini-14 shoots better groups. Quite frankly, I should have spent the extra money and got a Steyr Tactical Elite (only factory rifle I've shot sub MOA with). Get the Winchester.


thanks for the heads up on the Jewell two stage trigger, its just the sort of thing I'm looking for! Couldn't find the review, though.

I was going to be spending a lot of money trying to get the friday afternoon PSS accurate. SOD THAT! I'm gonna get me some of them road cratering things. If not I'm gonna make one.

I've got a camera tripod, bucket and funnel (instant shaped charge), open tub of Vhitavouhri (makes a GREAT rocket motor), I can get my hands on a couple Kg of black powder, and I know someone with all the McGuyver episodes on videotape.....

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 21:27:10 (ZULU)

Speaking of cold, anybody figgured a way to keep a convex mirror from fogging over when it gets to the exhaust pipe of a car???????

It sucks even morer working outside in this weather, reminds me of South Dakota in July.................


COLDER THAN USAL IN BIG CITY, By-GaWd, - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 21:29:46 (ZULU)

Deputy Doug,

Ice fish don't have much taste to em at all and they are crunchy too. Ya gotta eat em raw cause if ya try to cook em they turn to water. :) :)

Ordered a set of Farrell rings and and a one piece base for the Department's Savage(sorry guys)10FP. After I get them on and test em out for awhile I'll give my opinion (for what its worth) if anyone is interested.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 21:41:16 (ZULU)


Not with a 5R....... I would love to have one, I have a spacegun barrel ordered through John H, but I wasn't real picky about which brand (just something to play with and maybe dedicat to 600 - 1000 yards). I told him that I would really like one of yours if he had any ordered......

Steve ~ Hockeyref <>
- Friday, January 24, 2003, at 21:47:32 (ZULU)


feel free to email me, I'll fill you in..  been talking to John on these as well..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 22:18:36 (ZULU)

Ahhh cold weather reminds me of the day i went to the recruiting office. I started work at 07.00 bagging carrots from a carrot pile,( carrots harvested where put in a pile, covered with straw and then earth and they kept fresh, we bagged them as required to go to the markets) me and my mate Dave where both working for my Dad on the farm then(we always had a rifle in the tractor and work would often take second place to a stalk if we happened to see a deer , rabbit or hare, if Dad caught us away from our work he's complain, "You lazy bastards I'll have you on Jankers( a military punishment) tonight", but he would have forgotten about that by the time Mam had the game in the cooking pot).We had the tractor and trailer pulled up along the side of the carrot pile, a clear plastic sheet propped up with wooden poles, draped over the trailer and over the other side of the carrots pile to keep the damn snow off us. It was blowing a gale and bloody freezing, a gust of wind blew the plastic sheet loose and i got smacked on the head by a wooden pole, I threw the bag of carrots into the field in disgust, said to Dave, "Fuck this, I'm joining the Army, you coming with me or not?" well, Dave stayed there with the carrots( and he has said many times that he made the wrong decision back then) I marched off the field, to the house, took a bath and promptly went to the Army Careers office. Exactly one year to the date, I was in the middle of a field, up to my eyeballs in a snow storm, shivvering my sorry ass off, L1A1 in hand with a tin pot on my bonce wishing like hell that i was back bagging carrots.

Lots of arrests around Europe today or suspected terrorists, Italy and Spain picked up a bunch, seems to be a haven for em here, claimimg benefits and free milk whilst building bombs, at least the intel seems to working out and some are getting busted, is it enough i have to wonder.

Ref set triggers, there are several types of single set and double set triggers on the market, set triggers are very popular here in Europe, especialy Germany, you either push (in most cases) the trigger forward to set the hair trigger( single version) or pull the rear trigger to set the front hair trigger(double version), they are very nice to use, HOWEVER, if not properly maintained and kept in the correct adjustment they can be a pain in the ass and down right dangerouse, some types tend to wear badly and become un-reliable, i wouldn't want one on a sniper rifle or a rifle i had to trust my life to, or a shot of a lifetime on that monster roe buck.They tend to have many small parts, are succeptable to dirt and in stress situations are more difficult to use than a straight pull trigger( be it single stage or 2 stage)  AS far as i am concerned the simpler the trigger mechanism the better and more reliable it will be.

JR, the guilt complex in the German society has gone on for far to long,( my damn tax money should not be suplimenting the income of some ruskie pimp, who is here claiming all he can, just because a Tiger tank ran over his grandmothers vegetable patch) the Japs didn't feel guilty for long did they, the larger portion of the German Military that served in WW2 have a right to be proud of thier selves, they fought for thier country well, it wasn't the fault of Unteroffizier Hans, that his countries leadership had designes on world domination and was oh so slightly mad.( that would apply to most politicians if we let them get away with it) I'll drink a beer with a WW2 Wehrmacht veteran over a born in the 60's pascifistic leftie Schroeder supporter any day of the week, infact its the WW2 generation, who remember the genorosity shown by the Brits and the Yanks after the war who are the most supportive of the current US UK stance on the Iraq Problem. Germany and France are getting real friendly, and they hold far to much power in Europe, lots of Franco German alliances bieng built up at the moment,They are bent on dominating all the european markets and both cuntries ( sp intentional) have been supplying certain items to certain other countries through the back door and deserve a bloody good wrist slapping for it.

Doug, I'd recomend the 450 marlin,the thing is nothing short of awesom, get the new pistolgrip, 20" non ported barrel version( of course if you hand load, stick with the 45/70, you'll get the same results).


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 23:43:34 (ZULU)


         I have an LTR, but it's a .308! If your question had to do with the suitability of 55gr bullets in a 1/9 barrel - go for it. I have several AR's with 1/9's and they do as well as anything with the 55's. In fact, my Colt Accurized Elite (Wilson S/S air gauged 1/9) does its best with 52gr. SMK's. Actually it outshoots anything I own @ 100yds. Best group is .113" with a .130" backup - 5 min. later. I've found that in my experience the 1/9's are only reliably accurate with bullets up to the 69gr. SMK. The Hornady 75gr. BTSP Match is real finicky in my 1/9 bbls. and I really can't get the 77gr. SMK to shoot in them at all, however it's fantastic out to 600yds. through a Douglas Premium S/S 1/8 barrel that I recently installed. Weather's been in the 50's here for the past week, so I'm getting range time:-))


      Thanks for the heads-up! I've had about 90% good luck on e-Bay and I'm always hunting for things like neat scopes. Last one I bought was a No.32, Mk2 (Improved & overhauled @ Garland Road) and the matching Holland @ Holland mount for an Enfield .303 No 4 Mk1 (T) sniper rifle that I had in my collection sitting naked. The seller (Pete Kolb) in England, is as honest as the day is long, and hasn't taken advantage of the higher prices over here. Evidently the demand in the UK for war relics is not as high as in the States. But you are very right, buyer beware with this kind of stuff on the 'net.


   Coincidentaly, I've had a MK4 16x mil-dot mounted on my .300WM for over a year. I only shoot this over 500yds, and have made many 1200yd shots with it. It works great, you'll like it. In my neck of the woods our local gun club and several VFD's within a 50 mile radius hold dynamite shoote to raise funds. KD and UKD targets from 400 to 1200yds. Two bucks a shot. The organization keeps half and the winning shooter (at each distance) gets half. Then the pot starts building all over again. It's all in the timing;-). Loads of fun when you set off the quarter stick of dynamite, and helps the community too.

Fun with acetylene,

                  Drill a small hole in someones' sealedbeam headlight with a carbide masonary bit or a diamond bit. Fill the light with acetylene, propane, or butane (not too much please) and seal the hole with a small piece of duct tape. Then wait for the victim to turn on his headlights. HA!

*The above posted for entertainment purposes only*


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, January 24, 2003, at 23:51:07 (ZULU)


>>Ahhh cold weather reminds me of the day i went to the recruiting office.

John Lennon reminds me of the day I went to the recruiting office. I had to get up very early to make the train journey (very early, 06:00 hahahahah!). Put the radio on whilst having breakfast, and heard that John Lennon had been killed.  My parents had spoken about remembering what they were doing when they heard that JFK had been shot - I suppose that was 'my moment'.

What actually happend at the Army Youth Selection Centre?? well, thats another story....

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 00:00:33 (ZULU)


good luck with the no.32 scope!! I did try a no.4(T) awhile back, and whilst it was enjoyable shooting a rifle of the (Great) British empire, I wouldnt give you $50 for the scope - I've had better Tasco's. If you ever need the scope serviced, I suggest that you contact Peter Laidler (serious REME geezer). I've got contact details somewhere if you need them.

Over here, they demand (and get) silly money for a no.4(T). Last one I saw, in its box with complete equipment schedule was $2000 - you could buy a real gun for that money!

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 00:13:04 (ZULU)

B Tiger, you blaspheming bugger, thats a piece of your country's heratige your talking about there, that fineest of fine sniping rifles .. shame on you.. I must admit, my job got a lot easier when we got rid of the L42's, The M85's and L96A1's needed a lot less looking after. (Lennon was an over rated commie scouse git any way), what you doing up at this time of day any way, that warm southern beer keeping you awake, or is there an Essex girl in the plot some where ??? ha ha ha. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 00:53:46 (ZULU)


 I enjoyed your "day I joined the Army" story.  In fact, it is "bloody cold" here in rural western Wisconsin--so I told my boys to go out and look for 17-24 year old carrot pickers.  This should be a banner month for us.  Thanks for the recruiting tip...Heheh.  On that subject, I'm thinking we ain't doing as good in the business as we oughta.  But lo' and behold-we tagged numba one company in November.  Go figure.  Once we "sh!t or get off the pot" things should pick up around here.  

I woke up one morning, 17, with a hangover, no job, no school and a girlfriend who missed her period.  Seemed like a good time to see a recruiter...and the girl, well, she had an unreliable period--like those delay caps on the ACME road-crater kit.  The rest is history.  

I hope the virus punk tries the ol' gov-mint server...but he probably doesn't have the balls or the skill. Heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 01:41:12 (ZULU)

Joe, tell your boys to include worried looking farm hands with broken plough's, my Uncle Georges story is even better.

During the early days or WW2, Uncle George, then just a snap of a lad, was working as a hired hand on a farm in the Yorkshire Wolds, Having left school at age 14, just intime to get hired on the next Martmas Day ( 23rd Nov was Martmass day, the 1 day per year that was a day off for all farm hands, they would all head for the nearest town or large village where they could buy new boots and clothes,this day was the traditional day when all the hireing and fireing was done within the farming community).

Any way, back to the story, Uncle George was working a team of 2 shirehorses, pulling a double furrow plough, churning over the chalky hillside field in the Wolds(actualy the same field that i saw the big cat in), George stops the horses with a "Woah boy" in order to watch the specatcle above, there is an ensuing dog fight between a British and a German fighter plane, the Brit is chasing the German about the skies, ratatatat, vroooooom, the horses begin to chomp at the bit and are getting a bit nervouse with all the noise. The German tries to dive out of the way of the Brit and both come storming over the field George has been ploughing all week, vrooooooom zooooom , rata tatatat, George is looking on in awe, the horses bolt, scared all to hell, the plough flips and having a wooden frame snaps in the middle. Bothe horses are long gone over the next dale by the time George realises what is happening. Now the leading hand and the farm owner are both not very tolerant and are well known for using thier fists to disiplin the farm boys. George has just lost 2 horses and broken a plough, he dare not return to the farm house to face the wrath and fists and sure as hell doesn't want to have to work of the cost of the broken plough. At this point he gets his bright idea and sets of on foot for the next village, here he catches a ride on a coal wagon to the nearest town and and goes to the recruiting station. He lies about his age(he was 16 3/4) and by night fall he has been issued a uniform and has a warm place to sleep in the local barracks awaiting transportation the next day to the nearest Infantry Training Depot. That is how a 22 year career in the Green Howards started( the Green Howards are still a Brit Inf Bn). After leaving the Army, George spent a year or so driving a truck and then emigrated to Australia, his eldest son served in Vietnam with the Aussie SAS. Keep your eye out for carrot pickers and ploughmen, they make half decent soldiers. Pete

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 02:30:01 (ZULU)


Can't say I have any cute "why I signed up" stories. I entered the Navy in '70, completed my tour as a Navy Diver/Electrician's Mate 2nd Class on Bathescaphe Trieste (DSV-1). Larry did a tour there, as well.

High adventure for a young man in his early twenties.

Worked for and took my commision in the Marines in '77 and retired in '94 as a Combat Engineer Officer/BN XO. No jokes about "swinging both ways", now!

While doing a joint tour with the Japanese Self Defense Force, Hokaido, Japan, our host took us to a "gentleman's retreat". Traditional male only sake parlor. Mostly older gents in traditional garb, while we where in USMC Cammies. One of the gents (a bit in his cups) confided to use that his greatest shame was being unable to crash his plane onto the deck of an American Carrier during WWII. Let me tell you, gents, the Bushido code is alive and well! Whew!

My 300 grain Sierra Match Kings arrived today. Now THERE is a bullet!

Have all my goodies for reloading. Just need George to complete the rifle. Can you tell I'm a bit impatient?

All for now...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 03:31:36 (ZULU)

these supposed peace protesters are nothing but american communist party members, they're the ones who have always been peace protest organizers, just like the 70s


Fred Hartman <>
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 03:36:24 (ZULU)

Holy shit. There is an Ex US Marine, by the name of Ken Nicolas O'Keefe who is leading this "human shield"peace pilgrimmage to Bagdad, the idea is that their presence will act as a deterent to the UK and US. I would like to know what kind of service record Mr Okeefe had and what his job spec was and how long he served. They are traveling to Iraq, via Europe and picking up more protesters on thier way, well i would suggest that if they pass through France or Germany they better hire a bigger bus, or perhaps a fleet of busses. I hope these traitors enjoy thier trip and i sincerely hope it is one way. Good Riddance to the stinking pigs.I best buy some eggs to throw incase i see the bus on the autobahn. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 03:51:02 (ZULU)


 A dream come true:

"Recruiter Country"

 I can see it now; Uncle Sam, saying "I want you...." while pointing a M24 right at ya.  Hmmm, then again, maybe not.  

Something to ponder:  Recruiting is off the last four months in a direct comparisson.  But, in at least my case, the "new recruits' market" is going strong as ever--they're coming into the Army at or above the pace we set last year.  The "off" part comes from the delayed entry program (as long as one year).  Kids who already signed up realize "hey! they wanna actually make me EARN my benefits?"  And they bail out.  Enough to offset the numbers of motivated kids coming right in behind them. I get everything from the honest "I am too scared" to the big lie "oh, I have a medical condition I forgot to mention..."   I get to "interview" these kids before we cut 'em free.  I am not above making them cry as I explain their cowardice to them.

 We're kinda trading the pool of recruits from sunshine soldiers to patriots--but it is a painful transition for us; a great one for the Army's future.  This is by no means scientific; just an anecdotal observation by yours truly.  It's spot on here, but may not be what is happening elsewhere.  FWIW.  Other than getting beat to death over the losses, I take it as a good thing mostly.  But I do hope I run out of pussies before I run out of patriots...grin.

Tomorrow is household-six's birthday.  I am working my mandated saturday--and there's hell to pay.  Well, for 364 days, she never complained as she cashed my she'll just deal with it.  It's probably more to do with her worries about me going to Ku.  The shooting near Doha (and me stupidly saying "that's where I'm heading" before I realized what the reporter was saying) has her all nervous.

I went to a gunshow and checked out this ACOG mount.  It seems to have solved the re-torque problem of hand-tightening by this clever little spring tensioned thumb screw that pops at 65 in/lbs or so.  Very clever!  I could only see the NSN, the manufacturer was covered by the sight.  Maybe I can find one in-country.  Anyone know who makes this thing?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 04:04:59 (ZULU)

For anyone who planned on attending this weekends WCRC 1K shoot, stay home.  It's been cancelled due to the weather.  High of no more than 30, today's was a whoppin' 14.  Better than yesterday.

Sorry for the late notice.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 04:11:07 (ZULU)


    You oughta try the 69 gr. Sierra MKs over 25 grs of Varget.  It works well in the Stealth with 26" tube......velocity in the 2900 fps range.  I'm going to drop the charge a little to aim for 2800 fps and see what the groups look like.  Supposedly best accuracy is obtained keeping speed 2650-2800 fps with this bullet.  

    I use the Nosler 55 gr. Solid base soft point over 26.5 grs. of 748 for 3100 fps out of the 26" Winnie and 2750 out of the Bushy 16".  I'd guess you can get 3000 out of that 20" if you load it hot enough.  Even the 16" Bushy gives 3127 fps using those inexpensive fmj 55 gr. Winchester Q3131s.  Those are loaded milspec instead of SAAMI standards.

    Back to the wood stove.....4 above now.....a heat wave.  Got the Redding Comp. 7mm Mag dies yesterday along with 168 and 175 gr. Sierras.  I wish someone with a ballistic program would run the 175 SGK at 2950 fps against the 6.5 142s and see what it looks like.  Just curious.  Perfect for that long pocket gopher shot.....leaves nothing but the front feet.  

Jerry S. <>
"Nubs" Valley, MN, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 04:51:08 (ZULU)

Hate to bug you guys with another rookie inquiry, but:

 I am looking at the Leupold Vari-X III M-series, and I was gonna get the M-1.  I was thrown off of the M-3 with the BDC because someone said that it was calibrated using the M-118 FMJ (not BTHP).  But recently Gooch said that the M3 was the way to go.  After checking it out I noticed that it only had 1 MOA elev adj.  Do you guys see this as a big problem when reaching out past 500-600 yds?  I would like to use the M-3 for its simplicity, but I don't necessarily want to trade in accuracy.  Or is an M-1 with a properly maintained data book the way to go?  

 This will be my first LR scope, so any help is greatly appreciated.  


Ryan Sheaffer <>
Abbottstown, PA, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 05:58:49 (ZULU)

I'm gonna kill the guy who sold me this jeep. here i am, nearly 400 km traveled after a night shift and 300 of that with a goddamn blown turbo, oh bollock, oh bugger. this SOB is gonna be getting this jeep stuck up his ass, how could i be so dumb and buy the sod ? M"§$$%$%$%er!

I'm suposed to be pig hunting today, but its the Kindergarden festival this afternoon, and our little lassie is on stage, so i had to set my priorities. An afternoon with a bunch of leftie soccer mums, most of em don't eat meat and non of em drive an SUV.I'll see if i can spread the anti saddam message and ruffle a few feathers.

Chris, email me your address again will you mate, Anke has some stuff for Elen, but she deleted the addy by mistake.

Crime here isn't punnished. Mate of ours has a filling station with a auto repair workshop attached, the local criminals, a bunch of bloody gypsies by the name of Laubinger, keep going in and stealing what they want, our friend chases after one of them and grabs him " hey you just stole some sun glasses, we caught you on video" the asshole replies, "sunglasses, me, no  you must be mistaken." " I'm calling the police " says our friend. the gypsie moves his over coat to one side revealing a side arm, do you realy want to call the police? I know where your daughter goes to school" our friend crapped his pants, didn't call the cops, the same family's boys went into the store where my wife works, walked out with a half dozen TV sets, one of the cashiers contacts coleagues over the pager and the fork truck guy in the parking lot blocks thier van with some pallets full of stuff, same story, he gets shown a gun and told they know where he lives, that got reported, but nothing happened, The filling station gets ripped of on average once a day by some one filling up and driving off, last month it happened 35 times, all where reported to the cops, of which 20 where caught, but the damn gov't prossecution service don't go tio the trouble of prossecuting for the sake of 60 bucks worth of fuel. but for the owner, its not 60 bucks, its between 60 and 120 and that times 35. it sucks, i'm mad as hell with the whole situation, and the damn politicians keep telling us that we don't want American conditions here.. Well I for one wouldn't mind if we did have. I have never been so pissed off the whole time i've been living here. The country has no backbone, no law and no future. now what was the address of that NASA recruiting office???

ok rant off, i just needed some sympathy.. oh oh oh.. Pete

P.S oh Ryan, just buy an S&B and have done with it, you'll thank me in years to come when all the leupolds and NXS's broke

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 10:48:29 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln,

As soon as that bastard said "I know where your daughter goes to school" I would have taken that gun (that probably hasn't been unholstered in a month of Sunday's), shoved it up his ass, and given him a need for a colostomy bag. Now, he might have beat me to it but at least I would have died trying eliminate the threat. Assumptions to be made:

He actually DOES know where whe goes to school,

He IS actually psycho enough to mess with her,

He showed me a gun which means he intends to use it on me or my daughter,

Where I live, you don't threaten family. Doesn't anybody over there have the balls to get together and fight these folks? Who makes up your juries?

Damn, too early in the morning for me to get started, Bolt out!

Bolt <>
NC, - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 12:10:43 (ZULU)

Ditto Bolt,

As soon as he TRIED to open his coat, he would have been decommissioned, out for the count, disarmed, and duct-taped to the wall for the local law enforcement official to takes him away.  And maybe we'd just happen to forget the phone number, and remove his thumbs with sidecutters, hammer some strips of wood under his remaining fingernails and soak his hands in saltwater.  "Now where was it my daughter went to school again?".  It might have been hard for him to answer, as by then his tongue would have been removed...

I'd heard a story at work the other day, the abridged version..  Near Edinburgh, a man and his wife were soundly sleeping in their home when a band of 5 crooks broke in.  They promptly assaulted the residents, urinating and masturbating over the couple, mentally and physically tortured these poor folk.  Later they were caught and sentenced to a measly 2 years(can't remember the exact sentence).  Well, the first was due to get out in six months.  Seems he had a celebration upon release, was walking home in the dark morning hours over the Forth Bridge, and was so drunk, apparently, that he fell off the bridge to his demise.  Second crook gets out a few weeks later, has a celebration, got so drunk on his way home he fell off the Forth Bridge.  Hmmm..  Third was out in 9 months, fished out from underneath the Forth the day of his release.  Co-in-kee-dink?  I didn't hear what happened to the last two, but I bet they got the point.  


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 13:10:54 (ZULU)

Oh guys, reading recruiting stories reminds me my army time :-) I have been working as a smith in docks, when I was 17 and then on one of those big river remorkers. I can remember my hell weeks- it was -20 celsius and we were fighting up the river full of ice. Everything in the maschine room seemed to break, the maschines have been taking ice, the fuel freeze in tubes, our generators failed, so the heating didnt worked. We cannot stop, the captain thought that the ice might break us from achors. The food went short, on the river you dont need to have big supplies. We have 1400 tons to deliver. We cannot harbor, because in harbours was already 70 cm of ice and the ship wasnt strong enough to break. They sent us a icebreaker to help, but this ship destroyed the engines before even reached us. We break into an harbour and did a hollow in ship. I remember standing waist in water and hamer the wedges into. That was my Xmas 1997.I didnt sleep beeing a machinist, I had to keep the engins runing. I lost 14 kg in 10 days. Here is a mandatory service - everybody at age 18 must go into army (I was 22), but in this time I looked more as a thing which was built, than grew :-) The army was funny for me - everything was alot easier as on ship. Everything.

I m shooting blackpowder, but been hooked for LR. I shoot a friends Mosin Nagant yesterday and this rifle shoot about 1MOA with cheap surplus ammo, I think this might be good cheap start in HP rifle.

If anyone here accurized this rifle, or played with old surplus to achieve good accuracy, I ll be very glad for comming into contact. (The rifles like remingon or winch. , many of you is using for LR, cost here twice as in U.S. The easiest thing is to get old surplus in good condition and butcher it. Thanks to all for sharing theyr wisdom and experiences.

Anyway, our guys are with U.S. in Kuwajt and if the Saddam uses chemical weapons they ll been bussy.The world certainly divide to a mens who speak, and those who DO something. We havent fought in any modern war, exception of few guys in RAF in WW2 and some in Russia (both been punished when the comunists came). We didnt fought when Hitler took us, because our politics betrayed us, we cannot preserve the red bastards taking the power in 1948, but the time finaly came to regain something we have lost. Stil a 100 000 our guys held the train through Russia from Vladivostok to Ukraine to return home and no one was able to stop them in WW1. We must only remember.

The politic of dissarming of common people is running through europe heavily, even here too. I dont want to end in the society where a defending himself is an "asocial act".

J. Peter <>
Prag, Czech Republic - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 13:46:57 (ZULU)

JR and Bolt,

You forget we are talking about a 'civilised' Europe here.  Criminals are people too.  They have feelings.  If you harmed that man or restrained him against his will you could have caused him distress.  I can assure you the LE agenecies over here don't stand for such behaviour, and the both of you would find yourselves in court and probably paying compensation to your 'victim' and/or his relatives.  You should leave the police to sort out these criminals after they collect plenty of forensic evidence to bring a prosecution, AFTER the event.  The last thing they need is people defending themselves and their families.  The whole thing gets too complicated then.


P.S. I hear that Forth bridge can be a dangerous place ;-)

Jon Beardsley <>
- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 13:59:03 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon:  RE mounts for the ACOG, I can highly recommend the ARMS #19 and #19S.  I had heard some bad press but after working with them for a couple of weeks I can report they are top shelf.  

We just finished doing a Tactical Carbine module with guys from the 122nd ASOS (who are now on their way to Qatar).  The class involved day fire and no light/low light.  Aimpoints and ACOGs were swapped back and forth on the weapons with excellent zero retention.  One weapon was laying on top of a Pelican which was on top of a rack when one of the guys backed in to it.  Rifle goes 4 foot vertical onto the hard ass clay and bounces.  Just as the rifle is about to quit bouncing (my toes are now hurting because they are totally curled under at the sight this nice carbine flopping like a freshly caught perch), the Pelican falls on top of it.  After about a half dozen rectums relaxed, the student and myself both shot a few shots at 100yds to verify zero before moving on with the class.  The ACOG was dead on so I have to say the ARMS is tough as well as very repeatable.  If anything, this event gave the guys EVEN MORE confidence in their equipment!

OTHER NOTE:  We had several sessions from 3 feet in a kill house to 300 yards at some mini steel silhouettes at night with the PVS14s mounted behind the AimPoints.  VERY COOL toys.  The one thing that really blew me away was when we put a 3X optic boost on the front of the PVS14 and remounted behind the AimPoint!  The added magnification increased the effective precision of the dot quite a bit for increased distance stuff.  

However, for up close the setup was far better without the 3X.  In fact when shooting with both eyes open, it was obvious that the PVS14 had a slightly negative X which showed your target as smaller than your standard vision (left eye, no optic).  When working around the kill house or multiple target drills, this slightly wide angle effect was actually a help and the "soda straw" effect was not so constraining.

I'm thinking about selling my wife's car so I can buy some night vis toys.  If anybody's looking for a great deal on an 1988 Olds, you know who to call.

Hope this info helps Joe.

Everybody stay safe,


Terry Cross <>
Forest Hill, LA, US - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 14:48:32 (ZULU)

  Thanks all for the 223/LTR info.

  Being an unsophisticated reloader/varmint shooter, I load all my 223 ammo for hogs & P dogs on a Dillon 550.  26gr. 748, 55gr. Nosler BTs, in once fired Win. or Fed. brass.  This ammo shoots sub MOA in all my current rifles and chronos @ 3120fps out my Kimber 84.  Was thinking of a LTR as another high volume PD gun, hence the reference to the 55gr. BT specifically{sp?}  I could have a specific load for each rifle that would out perform these bulk loads,but, I like being able to load an assortment of guns and several 50Cal. cans of ammo in the truck and head out to shoot dogs without the logistical problem of having to wonder if I have enough ammo for any specific rifle.  I take the same approach to my Hornets' ammo and it seems to work for me..It all shoots way better than minute of prairie dog and makes life simple for this simple mountain boy.  My 308 LTR shoots bug holes and I'd like to get one in 223, eventually, but knowing how they perform in that caliber, with 55s specifically, would be good info to have.

Thanks again

outa here

Markwell <>
Dreaming of spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 15:13:02 (ZULU)


Jerry S. asked about relative drop on the 7mm 168 gr. SMK and the 175 gr. SGK vs. the 6.5 gr. SMK. All at 2950 FPS. I ran the data through my Exbal Ballistics Programs and here is what I got. I picked 600 yards for a comparison of the three...

600 yards: Sierra MK 168 gr: Drop 77.0", 175 gr.Sierra GK drops 74.0", and the 6.5 142 gr. Siera MK drops 74.2. According to the program.

Can't vouch for the 7MM's, but I use an actual 11.25 MOA with my 6.5 x .284 at 600 yards. That equates to an actual bullet drop of: 67.5".

Sometimes the reality is in the shooting.

Personally, I'd go with the 6.5 X .284. Recoils like a .308 and accuracy is phenominal. The 7MM Mag will beat you up a bit more and I doubt it will shoot any better.

Hope this helps...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 16:37:54 (ZULU)

J. Peter,

 From my perspective, the Czech's hastened the end of the DDR during the E. German refugee situation at one of the embassy's.  It has been awhile since I read up on it, but my impression is the Czech's and the Pole's led effort for the fall of the evil empire.  A war is not necessarily fought by standing toe to toe and shooting it out--some are fought over many years by every means of resistance available.  I'd say your countrymen fought one helluva war for fifty years against a determined enemy.  It was intellect against tanks.  And you won.  And those of us here in the US take note of the fact that the Eastern European's offer us more support than our "traditional allies" are!  For my money, Paris can just sink into that nasty river--I'll visit Prague in a heartbeat!  At any rate, I watched the events unfold at an alarming rate as you guys undid the Soviet domination--and I had and still have enormous respect for the courage of your countrymen.  I think you'll find that others here at SC feel the same.

Now can anyone answer his question about the Nagant's?  


 People I talk to who oppose guns in all forms all refuse to believe that people exist as you described (I know where your daughter goes to school...).  The reason they do not believe in the evil of man is this country has armed citizens and (once) effective rule of law.  Since they attribute their security to ideals, not actions, they wish to undo both of these factors.  IDIOTS.  I've been to many countries where the courts/police are weak, inneffectual, corrupt or in combinations of the same--and the citizens are not allowed to have guns.  Lovely effin' places!  I will be dead before I allow this to happen here.  I am a gifted orator on this subject, so usually I get called fascist or some other silly name after destroying their arguments with rational thought and facts.  One other thing, most every one of the anti-gun crowd I've dealt with have one thing in common--they've travelled as far as Florida and they don't know the difference from a passport and a visa.  For some one to say they don't want "US conditions" is fine with me.  I do not want their condition, either.  We should all be happy now, right?  heheh.


 Wow.  All of those suicides from the same bridge.  That is so terrible!  Maybe you should put up a fence or something...Bawwwwhawwwhawwww!!!!  


 Yep.  I agree.  All bets for a civilized response are off when my kids are threatened.  This particular situation may require a more "thoughtful" action, though.  Tit-for-tat only escalates; you must put  deeper fear into them from the get-go. And the kids move to grandma's house for a while.

Joe M.  

Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 17:19:50 (ZULU)

JOE: Nothing like an "unreliable period". lmao


Potential Murder Suspect    OR    Pack My Shit.

brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 17:33:18 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>Wow.  All of those suicides from the same bridge.  That is so terrible!  Maybe you should put up a fence or something...Bawwwwhawwwhawwww!!!!<<<<<<<

I'll bet you a muckle dram of JRs favorite Glenmorangie that the mere mention of the Fourth Bridge brings more than a little attention at the local hoosegow there.

Hmmmm. Wonder if there's anything to be learned here? Shades of Charles Bronson ;))))))



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 17:56:10 (ZULU)

   While watching a local cable talkshow where the guest was a local

idiot crying about the U.S.A.'s not having the right to attack Saddam,and bragging that he was going to Iraq to be a human shield to prevent the U.S. military from dropping their bombs,one thought came to my mind.  I wonder if this asshole ever heard the old saying about killing two birds with one stone?

- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 18:17:55 (ZULU)

Joe M,

      Terry was ,as usual, spot on about the ARMS mounts. I'm aware of lots of people using them for years without any problems. Especially that gas gun guy that goes by Sierra Echo! The #19 series are , I believe throwlever mounts. If you are interested in the thumbscrew type, as you mentioned, check out the ARMS #10. See them at

Mosin Nagants,

             Welcome to SC! IMHO, the "best" and most accurate M-N rifle is the Finnish M39, but most N-M's with a good barrel are very accurate. The quality of the surplus ammo that is available here varies from very good to poor. If you can find some of the Russian Army sniper ammo, buy it! Another good choice is the 200gr. "match" ammo available here under the "Wolf" brand. It should be available in Eastern Europe. It's manufactured in Russia. The M-N's are available here at a very low price, so I've been experimenting with five different variations. The Czech M48's are available here in like-new condition at low prices too. Quality ammo at a low price is a problem, and those old Mauser sights are a problem for anyone who is no longer young with perfect eyesight. The only thing that I really dislike about the Nagant's is the saftey. It must have been designed by the French;-0

Pete L,

      S&B Uber Alles? I'll bet that there are more Leupolds in the hands of the US military than the total production of the S&B factory, and Leupold gets very, very few returned for repair! And Leupold is responding to the Tactical community as well. The 4.5-14 and the 6.5-20 are now available with the M1 turrets as factory standard. The Gen2 Mil-Dot reticle will soon be a standard factory option, and the variable power MK4's are in the works. I won't put down S&B, they build a superlative product, but the fact that like most Germans they think that there way is the ONLY way, and don't seem to care about increasing their market penetration in the States, coupled with the fact that Leupold has about a one week service turnaround makes the Leupold the choice for most of us. I know what working with some of those Kraut bastards is like. For eight years I was a partner in a VW-Porsche-AUDI dealership, and had to work very closely with some assholes straight out of Wolfsburg, Stutgart, and Zweikau (Sp?). EGO UBER ALLES! And PLEASE don't get me started on metrification.

Arbeit Macht Frei!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 18:23:33 (ZULU)

ARMS mounts

Put one, screw on type, on my m1a and mounted a 4x loopy. Took some ammo out to the bench and left rifle propped up against gun vise. Came back in and rifle was horizontal on garage floor. In his excitement to go to the target, the dog knocked it over. No harm No foul. First round was spot on. Damn dog was heavy....:)))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 18:48:13 (ZULU)

J Peter;

  I have a Mosin-Nagant Model 1944 carbine. I must say the Mosin-Nagants are very simple and strong. However,  this tends to work against them in sub MOA accuracy. Mine will shoot around 1 moa on a good day with good ammo. You are doing well to get that performance with surplus ammunition. Surplus 7.62 X 54R ammunition is usually made with corrosive primers. Be sure to keep the bore clean.

 The biggest problem you face is that there are no readily available improvement parts. There are some scope mount kits and synthetic stocks. The other problems are the barrel bands, trigger and poorly made stocks.

 The barrel bands hold the stock in place by compressing the wood against the barrel. If the bands are too tight, it could have a slight effect on accuracy. Since you have to use the bands, don't worry too much about them.

 Triggers on Mosin-Nagants are non-adjustable. They can only be modified and should only be done by a gunsmith. You can try different triggers and get variable results. I don't think the triggers are bad enough to worry about.

 The stock is one item that can be made better by you. They are made too loose. The action doesn't fit very snug in the wood. You can use some stock filler to fill in some of the gaps. This is called bedding, ask some of the guys here about it. They are good at it, I'm sure better than me. Bedding the wood stock on a Mosin-Nagant should help it a lot. You could also use a plastic sporter stock and modify it like you would a Remington or Winchester plastic stock.

 The only good scope mounts for the Mosin-Nagants are the ones for the 1891/30 sniper rifles. Whichever mount you decide to use will need a bolt with a bent down handle. A regular straight bolt handle will not clear the scope.

 Do not let the draw backs of the Mosin-Nagant discourage you. They are very enjoyable to shoot. I think that 1 MOA groups are vey good with it. The most accurate and best made Mosin-Nagants are the ones made by Finland. Some of them can shoot under 1MOA. Also, if you can get one of the real 91/30 sniper rifles with scope and mount, you'll have a good and very rare rifle.

 What version of the Mosin-Nagant do you shoot? Here are some good sites about Mosin-Nagants.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 19:50:21 (ZULU)

Actually this rifle belongs to a friend of mine, I tried it beeing currious how does it shot. It was Russian 1944.The machinning is somehow coarse, you see in this year it was probably made by children and womans-the mens were in army.  O.K. this rifle is ugly as hell but shoots fine. It seems to survive anything and there is plenty of original scopes on market. Its not exactly the 0.5 MOA rifle, but could make 800 yard shoots? (Longest range I found here.)

I can have mauser, swede, or lee-enfield,(or this MN). I m playng with

the idea of puting good scope on one of those and sporterize it. Only one modern rifle I could have for affordable price is CZ 550 for equivalent 700 dollars.Scopes are not problem - Leuopold buys the lenses for the scopes here and a friend of mine is selling this scopes.But I fell in love with those old rifles, I mean if they were not any good the soldiers were not use them?

J. Peter <>
Prag, Czech Republic - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 20:55:42 (ZULU)

Lito: You got mail. No HIV

brian k. sain <>
- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 20:58:00 (ZULU)

J. Peter,

If you're looking for a old milsurp bolt gun to shoot target with, definitely go with the Swedish Mauser.  It's probably the most refined and accurate of the mauser family.  The 6.5X55 is accurate as hell and a real joy to shoot.  The Swede's took impeccable care of their weapons too.

ALAN and Jody,

I've got a M443 as well and it's a blast (no pun intended).  AS far as measly Mauser/Mosin sites go.  Check out Mojo sites.  The guy makes rear aperture sites for most mausers/mosins and they are very nice.  He also makes a "target" set that include an aperture front as well.  Either way it's a VAST improvement on the stock sites.



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 21:35:22 (ZULU)

J.Peter,I suggest if you can get a swede in good condition,do that,they are one of the best made and accurate ex military rifles around.I use mine to 1000 mtres with no problem other than my own stupidity,but I do have fun.

On the human sheild thing,the human part is debateable,the sheild part is funny when dealing with ordnance described in hundreds of pounds.

When the politicians were banning things in 96 we were told "we dont want the Amercian gun culture here".My wife got very tired at me roaring abuse at the t.v back then. There are things about American culture we can do without but I much prefer the attitude expressed here than the whining,bend over,piss weak,yuppie shit eaters who expect me to allow feral scum to harm my family at will.I may not have a large selection of guns but I got a couple,and a bad attitude,and explosives,and ANYONE who harms my family will at least be dismembered.To not defend your self and home and family is an insult to the people past present and future who sacrificed to make us free.The whiners who advocate submission to scum are an insult to the human race and they will pay for their gutless ways.



Gavan Willis <>
- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 21:55:31 (ZULU)

Bruce Robinson

  Got the package....Many thanks from ASC#2

  Will whack a chuck for you with a #3 Hornet come Spring!! They'll think you moved back East..

  outa here


Markwell <>
Dreaming of spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 22:02:13 (ZULU)

J Peter;

  If you want a rifle that will shoot long range with any respectable performance, you will want the Swedish Mauser. Nagants are fun but not very well suited for long range work. I don't think the 1944 carbine will actually hit anything smaller than a truck at 800 yards(joke). The 6.5 X 55 Swedish round is still very popular in matches around the world and ammo is affordable. In fact, the 6.5mm bullet is somewhat popular here as a custom caliber- the 6.5 X .284

 I have been told that CZ makes very good rifles. You may want to look at them if you want to use something new. Or, you could buy a few old rifles for play and get a new one for serious shooting.

Rich S.

 Thanks for the info.

Green Howards;

 There are some cap badges on ebay that are suppossed to be WW2 issue for the Green Howards. Item number 3202726996. Pete, can you tell me anything more about the Green Howards?

          LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 22:08:38 (ZULU)


 My isn't fond of me replying back to the idiot on the TV either.  She'll always say "well, who is a bigger idiot--the guy talking at you over the airwaves--or you, for shouting back..?"  Damn her riddles.  Heheh.

Joe M.


Joe Mahon <>
- Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 22:30:19 (ZULU)

 Snipers are scouts more often than snipers.  You can't support your base unit if you can't tell them what's out there.  And once you have eyes on with the enemy, you can't let them out of your sight or your intel immediately becomes dated and less important.  Keeping eyes on, and being able to pass the info you learn is critical.  Also, you may get an oportunity to take a shot that wasn't foreseen, and need to get clearance to take the shot.  You can't leave, so you would need to radio back to get clearance.

 So, as SCOUT/snipers, what radio band is most adventageous for them to use(shortwave, VHF, UHF/satcomm)?  Likewise, which radio offers the most to the scout/sniper for tactical use, most data transfer available, and anti-radio direction finding capability?


Wolfgang <>
Quantico, VA, - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 22:55:14 (ZULU)



<<Criminals are people too.  They have feelings>>

thats the problem, too many criminals are feeling people..

Firth of Forth, that's what the bridge covers.  I'll click a pic of it next time up..  vigilante, no..justice, yep..

A Czech!!  cool..  and a maschinist as well, it does not get any better.  Look at the world-wide connections we's got, this is good stuff.  I respect the Czechs immensely, mostly due to Jaromir Jagr and Dominick Hasek, as well as Martin Straka, the list goes on, for the fear they put into North american puckheads every time they handled that lil black ice cube, I've always wanted to check a czech.  Sorry, off topic, and the fact that you have a republic after all those years of Soviet occupation should have been the center of my admiration, and is., I was joking about the hockey, but what can I say, some of the best in the game are Czechs.  Aye, whatever you get for a rifle, just shoot, research, upgrade, but keep shooting.  It's just like anything else, practise until you're better than the equipment and upgrade when it is financially possible.  I will visit Prag, or as we anglisize, Prague, gorgeous city with immense history.


I'm checkin Monday to see if we have an agent in his area of the world, I think we do have someone in CZ..  If he finds the rifle he wants, he's got a new tube..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 23:32:10 (ZULU)


I may be off base on this and if so will accept any fallout but I don't think this is the place to discuss radio frequencies that may or may not be used by Scout/Snipers.  Once you are assigned to one of those positions I'm sure you will have been trained in this area.

Awaiting Fallout :)

Byron <>
CA, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 00:52:40 (ZULU)

J. Peter,

Welcome.  As Joe M. said, we appreciate the support from the Eastern Europeans that appears to be sorely lacking in Western Europe.  May have something to do with smelling the sweet smell of freedom and realizing that there are some things worth fighting for.  I agree with the others, if you can locate a Swedish mauser, you will have a good shooting rifle.  All the best.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 00:58:11 (ZULU)

Chris (aka Fat Boy)

"For anyone who planned on attending this weekends WCRC 1K shoot, stay home.  It's been cancelled due to the weather."

Come on down to Memphis and you can shoot with us. We ain't got enough sense to know it's too cold to shoot. Got a 600 yd match with an egg shoot right after. All you'll need is some warm clothing, boolits, and sumpin to shoot 'em out of.

Squadding will start around 0730 and we'll got hot between 0830 and 0900. Probably closer to 0900. Entry fee is $15 for MSSA members and $18 for non-members for the 600 yd match and $5 per CBS for the egg shoot. Apologies once again to 'lito but we'll be shootin' at paper 'eggs'.

Invite is open to everyone. Come on down. (or up, depending on your geographic orientation.)


jc <>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 01:24:53 (ZULU)


>>>>Come on down to Memphis and you can shoot with us.<<<<

Got a lurker I'm in contact with now that's in your neck of the Tennesse woods and wants to make your match tomorrow but needs some directions.

You can post it here or hit me offline.



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 02:12:13 (ZULU)


Back from the range and cleaning rifles. Snuck out(with leg brace on)and driven my step-son. Did some prone work with my M40A1 clone. I'm still amazed at the accuracy and dependibility of that weapon. If I got rid of all else, I would keep it.

Cold bore shot was dead on...proceeded by several five round groups...the worst just under 1/2" and all others under 3/8". Personally, I can't hold much better than that. Shooting was done at 100 yards, prone, over my pack.

I continue to be amazed at the accuracy of the .308 using 175 gr. MK's, 44.0 gr of Varget, Lapua cases, Federal 210M primers, and an OAL of 2.800". Just incredible. Suspect that most of us are shooting Varget in our .308's, at this point in time.

This knee thing has me re-evaluating my lifestyle. I'm thoroughly disgusted with myself for getting this out of shape. That and excess poundage are probably the primary cause of the knee injury. Got some work to do in that direction.

See physician Monday, specialist Tuesday, and don't know what the future will bring. I want to go back to work, but know I can't take the physical side of being on my feet all day. Hopefully, they'll have a light duty post for me to man until this gets remedied. Will know more next week. In the meantime it's got me feeling pretty down.

Mike, hope your doing well. Do you have a prognosis yet?

G.W., Well said! It's amazing that the "politically correct" want us to cave in to their point of view, but are offended when we don't think likewise. Freedom is ABOUT choice? I'll defend their right to differ to the grave, but it does nothing for a stable life for all.

'Nuff said.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 03:05:46 (ZULU)

Sniper's Scout Frequencies; Although modern radio's have come a long way Lower frequency radios are rare, most tactical combat comm has drifted toward the VHF and Lower UHF bands. Although some super sensitive stuff goes on with Data stream communications bolstered by Satellite relay and ground repeater systems that can be easily digitally coded these days, your more than likely going to see FM VHF radios in the 3 to 5 watt transmission power range used in the field. Small tactical repeaters or even Aircraft born relay and repeating systems can be quickly dropped into a zonen where covert or assault operations are happening. To attempt to answer your question 400 mhz equipment seems to serve the best. Antenna systems can be small and power conservation or even solar powered battery charging is quite effective. It's a good subject. Specific frequencies are really unimportant and a radio with multiband operation is advantagous to prevent enemy Jamming and reception. Radio has come a long way since Vietnam with the next generation equipment practically impossible to decode.

Direction finding is employed on a lot of digital stuff today with automatic location being common place on commercial telephone equipment, satellite or otherwise. Humm! You could write a book!  

Brogers <>
- Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 03:07:37 (ZULU)

This is one neato site for pics:

Bolt <>
NC, - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 03:12:20 (ZULU)

Winchester Rifles is the subject this time.

I've had several Coyotes come through lately for trigger jobs. While it's relatively simple I cannot help but notice that on all the rifles I've been into the following occurs.  The trigger pull after being adjusted in the 30 to 45 oz region is quite nice and outside off the fairly Mauser like hammer fall is serviceable. The problem comes when you place the rifle on safe and then remove the safety. The operation on all these units is the same.  The trigger pull increases to about 53 to 60oz and is quite noticably harder. My question is? Does anyone have a remedy for this?  Does the Stealth suffer from this same problem.  They are too rare out here to obtain one to test. Just wondering if anyone has any comments on this?

Another observation about these rifles is that the Crown is quite rough and poorly done. The bores are a bit on the raspy side but all of these rifles shoot 1 MOA.

I have to edit this in after I saw

"So when you have easy reading of range accurately, you don't need it, and when it gets increasingly more difficult to read range... that's when you need it IN SPADES!


Brogers <>
- Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 03:38:30 (ZULU)

Europeans; We muse at the comments from over there about the European fears of becoming like the Wild Wild West and Dodge City  vigilante hang em high and High Noon syndrom over here. There were a few places like that but Dodge was the first town to resort to "Gun Control" and the taking of Frontier Men's guns was a great way to start a violent encounter. Actually the West was a fairly gentle place (not counting the weather) with most people helping one another get along and survive the elements for the most part. Most people went around armed and dangerous and that is what generally kept the peace and made for mutual respect and a society where regard for others was not unheard of.  What goes on in Modern America today, would shock the old gunfighters. And most of the really bad stuff happens now where personal firearms are prohibited by politically correct cowards one might get confused with zealots. There were peaceniks and cowards  all over as soon as the Mountain men, Buffalo Hunters, Gold Miners, soldiers and the railroad builders went through and made it safe for them to parade their cause. They still parade the streets of our capitols today. Our constitution, if it survives this century has been the saviour of not only our democracy but our very lives. Those who think they can enjoy peace and security by just wishing for it outnumber those who realize it can only be had by paying a price by at least 3 to 1 now. Your plight not to mention Modern America's is sad one indeed! We can rescue you from the tyranny of those who would suppress and enslave but we cannot rescue you from your own willingness to be be subjected to the rules zealous fools! How do you say, vigilante? That's right... you don't dare! Tragedy indeed!

Brogers <>
- Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 03:49:27 (ZULU)

Read this through. Look at who is the No. 1 supplier of chemical agents to Iraq.



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 04:08:26 (ZULU)


    Thank you for running the numbers on the 7mm mag.  I originally bought it for knocking off whitetails across the flat country and always loved the high b.c. numbers of the 175 Sierra Gameking.  I was going to opt for a Rem Sendero, but Winchester came out with their Laredo, so I got that. Too bad they stopped production.  They are accurate rifles, though I haven't used this one a lot.

    Sure, I'd love to have a 6.5-284......but when ya got young 'uns ya gotta shell out dough for things like pianos and lessons and bicycles and cat food.....more cat food, and don't forget the batteries.  Every kid's toy nowadays runs on batteries, except their fishing rods and cardboard swords.  Thanks again.    

Jerry S. <>
"Nubs" Country, MN, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 04:23:47 (ZULU)

Just a quick question.   Is SWFA still the best place to get Leupold scopes?  If not, where is the best place?   Hit me off roster if you would.


Tim <>
Portland, OR, - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 05:51:04 (ZULU)

Thanks ALL for advice. Ill try to get one of those swedes, Frankonia had imported a number of them for "colectors". I m glad that we are known at least for our famous sportsmens. There is a president election running just now - nobody of you had ever seem such burlesque. :-/ The only + is that possible winner is konzervative oriented - no further restrictions in gun laws.

J. Peter <>
Prag, Czech Republic - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 10:46:25 (ZULU)

Guys i agree with what was said about reacting to threats on family, if the SOB had threatened my family, he would be proping up some motorway foundations or would have fallen of of the Remagen bridge on his way home drunk, by now. Unfortunately we are talking about the reactions that a normal, hard working ,regular German guy, he isn't left wing at all, he is just.. normal, the society here has had it drilled into them with propaganda for over 50 years that all forms of violence, including self defence are wrong and it has bread the pascifist societywe see today, it begins in kindergarten, it carries on through school, it is in the media in every aspect of life Germans are required to be pascifistic, so do not conform to the mold, but most do. Exactly my point i was trying to make to our friend, and we discussed this at a couple of friends gatherings since, every one all agreed that there was nothing that could be done, thats the way it was, and rather would they back down than risk bieng hurt, I ranted and raved, but exept for 1 farmers wife, who said, Pete's right you know, if the law don't sort this out we should, they are weak and i would rather die fighting for my freedom, the freedom to run a small business and send my daughter to the village school without fear that some asshole will threaten my existence is something worth fighting for, it seems to me that the germans have been protected and kidd gloved to long, they have grown soft driving thier mercedes and porsche's and are out of touch. The politicians use " we don't want American conditions(Americanische verhältnisße) here" as anti gun propaganda and becasue the people believe that the whole of the US is like they see on tv( and all you see is murders rapes and action films with drug gangs and cops having firefights) the politicians rely on the propaganda to make the Germans feel like they have it good here, i mean it could be worse, we could have Americanische conditions, oh got oh got, blos nicht wie in America, and the people just carry on paying thier taxes and are glad to pay because the gov't are using the tax money to ensure that we don't go down the same slipery slope as the USA and end up with crime on every street.

How can they be so blind, we ask our selves, those of us who are interested in the facts, and refuse to be blinkered by fat cat politicians.Whats the numberof population of the USA ( legal population)? what are the armed crime and rape figures? now what is the population of Germany, and again the crime figures, % for % i would bet that the peace loveing Gremans may get a shock just how bad the conditions are that we have here, and we can't defend our selves!!. Time and time again, the total crime rate statistics of the USA gets compared to the total crime rate statistics here, now considering that germany is about as big as what , I dunno, is it as big as Texas? doesn't that put the figures a little out of context?

Any way, i for one will not tollerate any threats to my family, all will be dealt with swiftly.I just have to convince others to stand up for thier rights.Untill then, the only people with rights are the criminals and the politicians, but i could have made do with just one word here. Selling chemicals to iraq... oh oh..

J.Peter, welcome, whats the hunting like in your kneck of the woods? Chec's, Hungarians, Bulgarians and Romanians are about the only 4  former eastern block nationalities that you never see here in Germany trying to claim benefits and run crime rackets, Is that because there is still a sence of national pride in these countries and people care about each other and the destiny and future of thier nation?

Give the Varmint version of the CZ 550 a try, its had good reports here. If you get a Swede mauser. don't over load the hand loads, these accurate rifles tend to fly appart with high pressures, keep the loadings moderate and you will enjoy the rifles accuracy, sniper versions can be had at decent prices.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 11:10:36 (ZULU)

'Yote Bait,

"Direction finding is employed on a lot of digital stuff today with automatic location being common place on commercial telephone equipment, satellite or otherwise. Humm! You could write a book!"

Direction finding has become REQUIRED on all phones sold now.  As a matter of fact, all the digital companies (the one I work for included) have just taken on several million dollar fines for not being ready in time.

I've gotten 25 hours OT this week loading Location units in our base stations.  We're testing next week to ensure we can locate accurately to withing 150 feet.  In the next year or so we have to have the position accurate to within 10 meters.

So what's this mean for all you criminal types?  If the Fed wants to know where you are and they have your cell number ir ISDM, you'd better NOT turn that sumbeach on or your goose is cooked.  The system is supposed to be used to triangulate 911 calls (as it's called E-911 or enhanced 911), but there or modules in the switches that DO NOT belong to the carriers, both for voice cyphering and location bases services.

Orwell,, here we come...


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 12:33:03 (ZULU)

Chris; is quite right of course. Another "mandate"/ We are as an industry (communications and broadcasting) quite oppressed with mandates from Politicians who think they can just wish it up and technology will supply. eg/ Digital Broadcasting, high definition TV etc. It's another form of crime against the people but what the heck? America will overcome?  ... we hope!

Mine was not to say we aren't all suffering from the same mentality here and Europe alike. I guess I was trying to say it ultimately rests with us all, no different than 1776. As the Orwellian thing approaches our ability to control our own destiny is supposed to receade and it seems to be happening. I have long periods of thought about whether this country is worth defending but then I go on.... for the sake of my Grandchildren I guess.

Brogers <>
- Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 12:54:13 (ZULU)

Pete L - one small point.  Because you are willing to defend your family with force, they enjoy greater freedom than your good German friend. Perhaps you should point that out to him....

Please also mention to him this critical formula:

brave + stupid = dead

medicjim <>
- Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 13:46:46 (ZULU)


Acehigh John,

LC Match brass does not have crimped primers.  No need to swage or cut since there in no crimp.

Jerry <>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 14:00:15 (ZULU)

error in my earlier post

Michael <>
USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 15:24:37 (ZULU)

I dont think we have to be proud of anything in our modern history (we czechs). Anything brave and good we done was quickly corrupted by someone trying to profit from it. Our crime will not expand to another lands, we are small people and our mafia has rich playground just here. We are not russians nor ukraines. We always were and are the part of western world. Our problem is that we despise politics, they betrayed us many times. We do not elect the right people, because we dont like elect. Do you folow? Its strange. But this is just Off Topic pretty much. Thanks all for comments regarding rifles and start in LR shooting.

J. Peter <>
Prag, Czech Republic - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 15:25:57 (ZULU)

Somebody earlier mentioned the "human shields" going to Iraq to protest an American invasion.  Got this off of AOL from Reuters news.  The leader of this group is an ex-Marine.  I guess he forgot how well the Iranian "human shields" did in their battle with Iraq many moons ago.



LONDON (Jan. 25) - Waving goodbye to families and denouncing "imperialist" warmongering, the first convoy of Western volunteers set out from London on double-decker buses on Saturday to act as "human shields" against any attack on Iraq.

About 50 volunteers, ranging from a 19-year-old factory worker to a 60-year-old former diplomat, formed the first in a series of convoys organisers say will take hundreds of anti-war activists to Iraq.

Dismissed by critics as naively playing into Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's hands, the volunteers plan to fan out to heavily populated areas of Baghdad and other parts of the country as a deterrent to Western bombing.

"Our strategy is potentially dangerous but that is the risk we must take in standing beside our brothers and sisters in Iraq," said former U.S. marine Ken Nichols, whose Human Shield Action Iraq group is coordinating the London departures.

"We have been inundated by volunteers. This is just the first wave. I am calling for 10,000 to get down there and stop this war," he told Reuters.

Saturday's convoy -- like others being planned for early February -- will travel across Europe, picking up more people on the way, loading provisions and stopping to promote their cause.

Nichols' group is one of several around the world whose aim is to mobilise peace activists as human shields in Iraq and show solidarity with Iraqi people in the face of a possible U.S.-led war against Saddam.


The campaign has upset some among the thousands of Westerners detained by Saddam to act as shields against attacks after his 1990 invasion of Kuwait and during the 1991 Gulf War.

They feel the volunteers do not appreciate the seriousness of what they are doing and are unaware of their past suffering.

"The majority went through hell on wheels," said Steve Brookes, who ran a support group for British victims. "Of the 1,800 or so British hostages, most suffered from some form of post-traumatic stress."

Volunteers from Nichols' group, mainly from Western nations but including some from Turkey and China, insist they are not going to support Saddam but to try to prevent the death of innocent people.

"When we arrive, we will work out where the bombing is most likely to be, where there would be most casualties, and we will go there. Our purpose is to protect civilians," 32-year-old lecturer Uzma Bashir, from Yorkshire in northern England, told Reuters.

Many have had trouble convincing their families of the importance of their mission.

"Nine out of 10 of the people going as human shields are more scared of what their mothers say than the bombs in Iraq," said Bashir, who plans to join a second convoy from London.

In the Muslim world, the main rallying point for would-be human shields is in Jordan. There, a campaign led by leftist parties and civic bodies is seeking 100,000 volunteers.

Baghdad has said it will receive the volunteers with open arms and help them decide where to place themselves.

Washington and London are trying to garner international support for possible military strikes over Saddam's alleged programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction.

01/25/03 08:38 ET

Copyright 2003 Reuters Limited.

Moe Mensale <>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 16:13:57 (ZULU)

General Questions -  HAve any of you out there used the US Optics Unertle remakes.  I have a friend who has a real stiffy for one.  My experience with USP was a few years ago and not one I will repeat with out good reason, but these are available no where else.

Also thinking of trying a Springfield TRP/operator for myself.  Anybody played with one?  Do they have the good stuff inside or should I just get a custom 1911 built?  Remember I am a tuperware hnadgunner so be gentile.  I got the bad feeling  Sarge is going to have some serious piastol stuff at the Badlands.


Titan <>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 17:37:48 (ZULU)

Michael re. Leupold Ultra

   A buddy of mine has had one of the real Ultras for quite some time..His has a spot on the inside of the lens{epoxy} and was told by the folks at Leupold that it couldn't be cleaned up  as the scope could not be disasembled due to being glued.  IMHO the Ultra is a great scope unless you have to have it repaired, then your screwed!! Buy a Mk4, they can be serviced. Lito??? Comments/corrections on this info.?

 outa here

Markwell <>
Dreaming of spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 17:53:12 (ZULU)


Good point. I have a number of other M3 Mark 4 scopes, and the Ultra was more of a "collector" type of purchase. I am a big fan of the Premier reticle Gen reticle. I suggest that is really the way to go.

Michael <>
CA, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 18:09:36 (ZULU)

Some one asked about the Green Howards, do a search on the net and you will find more than i can tell, but from memory, (i'd sit and listen to my Dad and Uncle George for hours, and spring into action to fetch a beer from the fridge and open it when they had one empty, these 2 guys where and still are my role models, and I'm proud of that.) Green Howards . 19th Regt of Foot ( infantry) first saw service atthe Battle of the Boyne in Ireland(thats a co-incidence)in 1690. Then regiments where named after thier commanding officer(as where the Japs in WW2), The name Green Howards came about because there where 2 Colonel howards in one Brigade, one of the Bn's became known as the Buff Howards and the other the Green Howards, the nick name stuck and eventualy became the official title of the Regt. They saw service in the American war of Independence(sorry guys) the 3rd Afgan war ( another co-incidence I'll bet). During WW2 there where 12 Bn's. I believe my Uncle was with the 1st Bn and served, among other places in Burma( I know he served in Burma and got on the wrong end of one of the Arisaka's with a bajonet attached, ended up a prisoner and was freed in an advance by British and Indian forces). The Green Howards are i think currently the RIB ( resident Inf Bn) in Northern Ireland,where in Warmister as the Demo Bn( i think) and before that they where stationed here in this town.

My Old boy, (who happens to be 74 today by the way) was in the 1 Bn The East Yorkshire Regt. When he heared what George had done, he did the same, but he was a good 4 years younger and the Recruiting Sergeant said that he admired my Dads guts, but he realy was too young to join ( Dad was 12).So dad had to plough the fields for another 5 years. He joined as soon as he could but only became part of the Occupying force. Then the Chinks started on ´South Korea, he doesn't talk about that one very often. Then came the call uüp for Suez and he went with The West Yorkshire Regt I think, Port Said.

Taking a look at history, looking back at the Regimental Histories for some of the local Regiments from my area, it strikes me that men, just ordinary men, have been answering the call to arms from our villages and towns for hundreds of years, I'd bet there has been some one from our village in every war since the battle of Hastings, that Gentlemen spans nearly 1000 years. I find that amaizing.

I find it offensive that this lecturer Uzna Baschir says he's from Yorkshire. He is most definately not ! He may live in Bradford, but he will never be from Yorkshire, I hope he enjoys his trip with the other traitors to Bagdad, may his next shit be a hedgehog.

An ex Girlfriend of mine was forced to be part of Saddams human shield in Gulf 1, her dad was RAF and was captured in Kuwait, along with his wife and 2 kids. None of them have anything good to sayabout Uncle Saddam. Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 18:21:30 (ZULU)

Hi Folks,

This is my first posting on sniper country I have a 8mm remingto mag that I am customizing into a LR rifle built on a m700 mag long action.

I am also building a 6.5mm remington magnum on a Mauser98 large ring.

My problem is finding a sutable barrel for it. I don't know much about their requirements for rate of twist and barrel length.  If anyone has any advice on the subject.



Bret K. Hamilton <>
Bushnell, Fl, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 20:13:28 (ZULU)

>>>Seems like the folks here are more interested in talking about everything except actually engaging targets with their equipment.  Is it the winter doldrums or cabin fever?<<<<<

Maybe a little bit of both.

>>>Anyone read 'lito's work?<<<<<  

Definitely. Several times as a matter of fact.

>>>>>Any comments?<<<<<<

I opened up my Word Processor and copied it to my archives just like his previous post on parallax. Wish somebody else would ask something technical/tactical to get the Cat Whacker to post a response. Give it a shot ;))

Outside of that, I'm like everybody else, waiting for the war to start....right after the Super Bowl ;))



Mk4 <>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 20:46:24 (ZULU)


I just purchased a BSA Scope and was wondering what others thought about it .  The clarity and quality seems excellent any opinions out there let me know.


Bret K. Hamilton <>
Bushnell, Fl, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 20:55:00 (ZULU)


Oh shit, it looks like we have a new nanny! Did it ever occur to you that others may be just as offended by your preaching as you are by their off topic posts? Don't like the content - scroll past. Don't subscribe to the fact that denizens of the DR will communicate their pet peeves, injurys, and good fortunes to their brothers? There's a place for you somewhere. I'm not inviting you to leave by any means. I don't have that right. This site is what it is - like it or not!



Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 20:57:04 (ZULU)


Hambone, bsa =shit.Had one killed it got a Loopy.You get what you pay for ,with optics its often less.Read the archives,at least twice.



Gavan Wiliiis <>
- Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 22:23:52 (ZULU)


   BSA has some pretty good scopes for the price. Just remember, there is a reason why they are cheap. If all you will do is some informal target shooting and some hunting, it should be a good scope to start out with.

  What BSA did you buy and what is it intended to do? As far as barrels, there are some guys here that are really good in that area.

Pete L.;

  Thanks for the info on the Green Howards. I love stories like that. I'm going to bid on the cap badge. It will be a little more special now that I have a history to put with it.

J. Peter;

  Feel free to keep us informed on the political goings on in your country. Gun ownership worldwide is being threatened. The anti-gun people are looking at other countries for ideas and the gun owners need to do the same. We like to receive information from our friends in the UK, Lands Down Under, Germany, Canada and also yours.

Defending your home;

  Here in Mobile County a few months ago, a man shot a burglar fleeing from his home. He shot him with his hunting rifle in the yard. The man was arrested and charged with some sort of homicide.

  He was sentenced last week and was given time served and propation. I think he was given some sort of misdomeanor. I'm happy he didn't get prison time but I don't think he should have gotten anything except a reward.

              LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 23:01:53 (ZULU)

When did 'lito post something on mildot use.  I usually read pretty close but don't remember anything recently.  Any help would be appreciated.


Rod Hansen <>
- Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 23:03:23 (ZULU)


If I know about it, it isn’t a secret.

Anyone with access to a public library and or the internet can figure out most of what's going on.  If you are aware of basic radio theory and stay abreast of the latest technological developments you can pretty much guess what's being used.  You don't even have to guess really just read the technical journals (open sources).

With equipment readily available to the general public you can determine frequencies used from a distance.  You can even DF those transmissions.  Decryption is the hard part and that's why the military focuses so hard in that area.  It'll take a pretty sophisticated and well funded adversary to crack even the lowest level U.S. military COMSEC.

The best most or our adversaries can hope for is to monitor traffic frequency (transmission rates & locations) and make a guess about intentions.  This type of SIGINT led the Germans to believe the invasion was coming to the Pas De Calle (sp?).

If a bad guy tries to jam he's going to be in for a world of hurt.  Radiating on the modern battlefield isn't a good idea when the other guy has air superiority.

Loose lips do sink ships but I wouldn’t be too worried about OPSEC violations here.  Those with secrets don’t tell them on this forum.  If the information we share here seems kind of “enlightened” and otherwise interesting it’s because there are some intelligent well read men that post here and I assure you they know better than to divulge real secret squirrel stuff.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Sprngs, New York, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 00:29:07 (ZULU)

Try CNN if you want military secrets, attack times and that kind of stuff. If we give you something top secret here by accident we just kill you.

Brogers <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 02:32:56 (ZULU)

News media reports war protestors enroute to Iraq to protect targets with human shield.

Top Secret Crypto reference successful Humint tech.

Code word release on a need to know basis.

Successful infiltraitors placed within protest group headed to Iraq for Operation Human Shield.

Need to know basis for release of this info.

Code word "Clinton"

Team leader has successful commo with Langley with miniture radio secretly inserted up his rectum.(team leader doesn't know the radio is there, he is told only to talk to his anal orifice, commo tech is on a need to know basis)  Theo-rectally this operation is a success,  real results will be measured upon arrival of team in Bagdag in next 72 hours, unless team is delayed enroute


News release, CNN reported negotiating with Pentagon for Maverick bomb cameras that go down on Bagdag with Human Shield protestors sitting on targets. CNN reports unusually low successful bid.  Investigation report to follow

These brave idiots, ops, "hero's" must be protected, lets get the word out to prevent info about this suicide mission from being released on the internet.  LETS GO GUYS DO YOUR DUTY.

Terry <>
Kansas City, Kansas, - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 04:00:55 (ZULU)

Let's write our congressmen and see if we can appropriate a few tax dollars to get all the peaceniks here and in Canada (read left wingers and gun grabbin democrats) some tickets to Bagdad. That should finish Sadamn for sure. When they start lookin for the welfare office around there, they're bound to discover his weapons of mass destruction and with any luck  at all they'll set em off. All those liberated women surely will bring down Islamic fundmentalists to their noses in the sand and prayin to the east for boy virgins. Meanwhile it will improve conditions in this hemisphere tremendously. Maybe they'll convert and decide to pray for the bombs to come send em home to Allah.

Brogers <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 05:14:48 (ZULU)


Been wrestling with installation of a new computer...time to go to Pentium 4. Lost all my e-mail addresses, but will rebuild. Stepson was reconfiguring the old computer and deleted them. I'll bury him later.

Sierra Bravo...send me your e-mail again. It got deleted before I had a chance to review it.

Paul, got your e-mail. Thanks for the moral support.

All else should be working normally, now. Well, as normal as it ever gets...;-)

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 07:55:13 (ZULU)


You have mail. N/A.

I don't remember any shield casualties from Desert Storm; were there any? If we could get HCI to sponsor this crap and a few other "name brand" agencies, ole saddam will really hate us. No more shootin in the air at weddings and shit. That place will really be safe. No drive by bayonetting, 10 round AK's. The place won't be the same. What good's a camel w/o a pair of Ma dueces on the hump?

Does severe cold, -8, affect pistol bullets in greater magnitude than rifle bullets? They are smaller and lighter and slower. Or would it be noticable at pistol engagement ranges? I'm gonna find out today. Will report back if the result is significant.

R. Opp,

Ice fishin was good yesterday, right up till that cold front went thru. They shut off like an empty machine gun, to keep it relevant. :)))


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 12:10:00 (ZULU)

Attn: Pilots,

One of my instructors sent this to me this morning. Click on my name for more info.

"I read this on an aviation list and thought you might find it interesting reading! As a former Indiana State Trooper I find this disturbing and ripe for abuse! I am 100% for the ability of the government to weed out the terrorists in this country, but this appears to be a little overly broad, especially when you think about cases of abuse by independent government agents such as what happened to Bob Hoover!"  John Hendrix, MCFI

If anyone reads, then you all are aware that yesterday the FAA bowed to the TSA:  If the TSA decides you are a security risk, they tell the FAA, the FAA revokes your license.  This was not an NPRM, it's law. In effect as of yesterday.

No due process, not recourse for the pilot, no reasons given for why the TSA thought you may be a risk.  This turn of events has me, quite frankly, worried about what is being done in MY government.


Edited w/ 'lito's help

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 12:23:52 (ZULU)


Yeah, I saw that article, what a crock of s**t. I've had some run-in's with the "people" who work for TSA, with the lack of accountability I see some grevious dis-services to the avaition side in the near future.

Well Hambone,

just lookie at Shilen, Lilja or any other company's web site and figure out how heavy a bullet you want to use. Once you have a weight, pick the twist and go. Obermyer makes great tubes, Shilens good, I have a Pac-Nor button rifled tube on my most recent rifle build. But for the 8mm, a one in 10 ahould work for just about everything.

Well, off to a fun day in the simulator playing with the GPS

Kush out

Kush <>
P-cola, Fl, - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 12:52:06 (ZULU)

Did anyone save the post by Lito on MilDot's?  My printer at home is down so I was going to print it off at no post.  If someone has it in a word document please e-mail to me at

patncindy@(REMOVE) That of course is with Lito's permission



Trying this remove thing to see if it slows down the virus e-mails.  BTW like an idiot I opened one from Georgia Precision and woke Norton up.  I know it's not from GP but I was asleep at the switch (or delete key).

MtGoat <>
ID, - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 14:00:17 (ZULU)

A question for you Smoke pole shooters:

I have a more than passing interest in getting into a 1874 based Sharps rifle in either .45-70 or .45-90, for the sole purpose of dinging steel at long range. Always wanted to play with black powder at long range but to be honest, my experience with it is totally limited. Most of my BP shooting is done with an 1858 Enfield at under 300 yards.

So, what can you tell me, from your experience about loads, molds and projectile shapes? Ray Rapine (Raypine molds) is a friend so that may help, but I am still clueless as to what kind of actual accuracy I can develop with one of the current reproduction sharps. Probably going to get a variation of the 1874 from Pedersoli, with Soul micrometer sights. Good quality for the price, with out the year long or longer wait. Your thoughts and experience would be appreciated.

Please email me direct with any help or advice you may be able to give, as I probably won't be able to spend a lot of time scrolling here. Thanks.


Scott <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 15:49:00 (ZULU)

6,5 X .284 DIE'S

Please can somebody tell me witch die's the best to use for this caliber?

Handdie's or screwdie's by knowing Neil Jones or Wilson??

They told that the shoulder is to sharp to make it with the handdie is that right?

Mail me if you want.


Paul <>
Wijchen, The Netherlands - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 15:54:23 (ZULU)

RE:attn pilots,

Gents I have one of the guys I work with meeting with the TSA in DC over the next few days, hopefully I should have some answeres to the post with relation to having our certificates revoked without appeal. If you want to forward any questions about this, firearms in the cockpit or other related aviation sec issues find me here or my email.



James Shilling <>
Cordova, TN, 38018 - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 16:15:41 (ZULU)

'Yote Bait,

 Gotta agree--armed citizens tend to have good manners.  Nowhere has this ever been brought home to me as vividly as Sheep Creek outside Anchorage.  Elbow to elbow, thirty some anglers going for the one big King; and as orderly and mannerly as could be.  Weirdly so, until you take note of the Ruger and S&W Bigbore wheel-guns hanging from each hip!  Etiquete is not only expected; it is required.  I loved it there for this very reason, though I found quieter places to land my fish.  

Scout/Sniper Comms is dictated by the mission/ distances involved.  If you look around enough, you'll find everything  from HF data burst to Freq-hopping in UHF (havequick) and FM (SINCGARS) to the SAT sets.  Depends on who they work for (unit) and what they're doing (mission).  I like freq-hop the best, as it is the hardest to "fix" with DF equipment and is semi-secure from the get-go--so long as all stations have decent training on syncronization.  One idiot can wreck the net though on the older sets.  GPS sync fixes that, but manpacks aren't there yet--and range is an issue.  HF has global range, but that works both ways (DF).  Sats have come a very long way since the day of uplink/ downlink frq. separations...and I stop here.  Out of the game too long.


 There is a reason for information "breaking" in the news--and it isn't because there are sooo many newsies that we can't keep a secret.  We can, and we do it-and pretty damned well I might add.  Sometimes by slipping a different, related secret out to throw them off.  But that is neither here nor there--we are currently gearing up for a war.  This phase is a show of force, in a big way to telegraph an intention to use this force.  It would do no good to conduct this campaign in secret, though it could have been done by not once metioning Iraq as a threat from the beginning.  Slide in a few troops for "training" and take a country.  Doable, but it would freak out most americans.  The OPLAN in Times?  Geee-wizzz.  Now what are we gonna do???  Or is the question "what are the BGs gonna do?"  I'll let the BGs worry about all that...But no American troop will be harmed by irresponsible press.  Tis' why we have contingencies for contingencies, and selective disemination of info.  Leaks are predictable and this is not a surprise to those who contol this stuff :>))

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 16:51:07 (ZULU)


6.5 X .284 dies...

Paul, I can't vouch for all the 6.5 X .284 shooters on the site, but I know that Chris and I both use Redding Competion dies. Get the set with the Micrometer adjustment seater die, decapper/neck sizer die, and finally get a body sizer (just in case you need to set the shoulder back). You will need to order the correrct sizer button, as well.

I recommend you stick with one kind of brass(either Lapua or Norma)and get a button for that brand of brass. The necks sometimes differ considerably in thickness, depending on brand, which may require you to have a number of sizer buttons.

DO NOT use a die that "pulls" the sizer button back through the case neck to size it. I tested those dies against neck sizing only dies and the runnout of the Redding dies was neglibable(.001 or less)and the standard dies were giving .003-005" runnout. A BIG difference.

I use these dies in my .308, 6.5, and 300 mag. There are none better, IMH0.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 17:08:30 (ZULU)

  Ditto on what Wes said on the dies for the 6.5x284s. I see Forester is making some BR dies for them now, this would be my 2nd choice.


  Sorry to hear about the knee, hope the recovery goes well.

Pat <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 17:34:07 (ZULU)


Posted this before, but got no response. I am thinking of getting a new scope to top my 700 Sendero. Thinking of a Leupold 4.5-14X50 M1 or the same in 3.5-10X40, also thought about a M3.  Was wondering if the Nightforce or the Nikon Tactical in about the same power settings was better than the Leupold?  Any feedback?


Marc Ingram <>
GA, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 17:52:40 (ZULU)

"6.5 X 284 Dies"

I have been reloading the 6 X 284 for about 9 months now. I have used Redding dies exclusively. Not one problem or complaint PERIOD.

Bushing dies are the only way to go.

If anyone is looking for a great long range Varmit round the 6 X 284 is a really good round to shoot. I highly recommend it.

I think I will take it deer hunting this year...


bryan <>
CA, - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 18:54:30 (ZULU)

To All,  Below is an e-mail I received. It is a legitimate site and is a small way we can show apperciation to our troops.

Subject: FW: Please Review, Sign and Pass On

>  Please visit the  Department of Defense web page below

>  and sign in thanking the men and women of the U.S.

>  military services for  defending our freedom. The compiled list of

>  names will be sent out  to our soldiers at the end of the month. So

>  far,  there are only  about 2.7 million names. What a shame. National

>  Military  Appreciation  Month.  The entire exercise takes 10

>  seconds...literally.


>  Please pass it on to your email friends.











Jerry Lee Edwards (pandora) <>
Chuluota, Florida, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 18:57:24 (ZULU)


I don't 'think' temperature has as much to do with the rise and fall of bullets(should slap myself, bullets don't rise) as barometric pressure, amount of water in the air, I'm probably way off base so I'll leave it at that.  Just the flight of the bullets, not talking about burn rates, etc.  The temp in itself would affect the barrels more than the bullets.. at -8 you should be ice fishing anyway, in a nice out of the wind shack and a flaskful of yer favorite tipple..  kinda funny that was brought up, cuz I'm reading about the effects of extreme cold weather on 416 barrel steel....

What's this?  I missed a 'lito post-it on mil-dot ranging?  dammit, would have went into the 'litter-box'(lito's den of hot tips and cool facts saved on the C drive for later reference).  Crap-ola.  and no archives updated yet?  ;(


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 19:01:58 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon, like Terry Cross said, if you’re looking to go with an ACOG mount, you might try the ARMS#19A. It goes on very close to how it came off, and very close is close enough for all but the most serious longer-range shots by my estimation. The pads wear out over time, they’re designed that way, but you’re talking many many lots o swaps before they need reworking.

J.Peter, don’t underestimate some of those other actions. The CZ’s I’ve played with are impressive, and I’d assume they’d make a good platform to start building on. Someone else can set me straight if I’m not spot on. Like Rich and others have said, the Swedish also make some fine rifles, but then you’re back to basically Mauser actions. As with several other guys, I’ve got respect for you Czecks.

Pete, please send my happy birthday as well, though a day late.

John, on pistol ammo, it’s a definite maybe. Depends on powder selection. Some get faster, some get slower. On worrying about noticeable differences, that depends on max range you’re using. Sorry for the know-nothing response, does matter out at 100 for some powders in some rounds.

Jaeger <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 19:18:17 (ZULU)


      I don't intend for my answer to your scope question to sound dismissive, but you should really check out the archives and also do a word search (available at the SC heading) to get you started.

      There is so much discussion and information there that will probably answer at least 90% of your questions and enable you to be much more specific with your needs. When you start, you'll see just what I mean. This is pretty basic stuff and has been kicked around and hashed and rehashed on thr DR for years.

      No personal offense, but most of the guys get tired of being asked to re-write the same long dissertation time after time. There is no short answer to your question. To attempt to 'put it all in a nutshell' would do you a tremendous disservice.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 19:22:07 (ZULU)

Bolt and other Service rifle shooters. Are any of you using moly in your service rifles? If so, are your scores better or worse using moly. Reason I'm asking is because when I first started shooting service rifle matches I was not as good of a shot as I am now. Now I can shoot good scores but am getting tired of the mess when I moly my bullets. Any help would be, Uh, Helpful.

*** EDITED- My red dress comes through for me again ***

Sure wish our rifle club could get back on a military range. Looking for matches and the closest are 300 miles a way. Which bites the big one. Guess I am going to have to take time off work to shoot this year.

Marc I. You can not beat Loopie scopes. I like the M3's the 1 MOA adjustments are good enough for me to hit 5" targets at 500 yards with out trouble. If you are off 1/2 moa thats only 2.5" at 500yrds. Not a big deal really.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 19:51:08 (ZULU)

OH NO....not the rolled up newspaper again!!!

James Shilling <>
Cordova, tn, usa - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 20:02:11 (ZULU)

I will soon be the new owner of a true Win Pre-64 featherweight in 30-06, a browning (made in Belgium) BAR in 7mmMag and an older Win 64 in 30-30. Right now, I'm setup to load .308, .223 and .260.  What the heck will I do with this odd-ball collection of nice rifles?

Darn, Darn, Darn... now I need a bigger safe and more loading kit...

medicjim <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 20:39:03 (ZULU)

Sorry, I forgot about the info in the archives,

thanks for the help.


Marc Ingram <>
Ga, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 20:49:21 (ZULU)


You would get more responses to a question on M1 vs. M3 for a specific application (as opposed to an open-ended question).

 I'll save ya the searching---buy a Loopy.  Don't get the large OBJ, go with a M1 or M3 LR, or spend a dime or two more and get the MK4.  If your eyes absolutely suck, get a 16x or a premier bumped LR.  Go ahead and get Mildots, because they give ya something to do while waiting on the elk once the batteries die in the RF :))  In fact, go to

and order a Gen II equiped model, and be done with it. Wrap it in Badgers and grin with most here. USO costs/service and NSX size/ cost pretty much tip the scales back to Loopy.  About a year and a half ago, I thought about optics off the price scale of sensibility--but after much debate here, I ended up with another loopy.  I can't even remember my reasons for wanting to re-invent the wheel.  

Joe M

Joe Mahon <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 20:55:59 (ZULU)

"Marc I. You can not beat Loopie scopes." unless you buy a European Brand.

Jody, do a search on some of the Brit Infantry Units, you will find colourfull histories. Green Howards(Uncle George) they where stationed here where i live until a year or two ago, i saw thier snipers on the training area operating from Quad Bikes.East Yorkshire Regiment( Dad, who was known to have been found(on more than a few occasions) behind an Enfield No4 Mk1 'T' showing his appreciation of Chineese food) Prince Of Wales own Regiment of Yorkshire, (cousin Terry, unfortunately Terry was badly wounded in NI,and well.. he is still alive, is about all that can be said.) I served with 1 Bn The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and 3Bn Royal Anglian Regt.( REME Attached), did a short term attachment( TDY ?) with 1Bn Grenadier Guards. I loved bieng with an Infantry Bn, they had lots of nice toys for me to fix, especialy the sniper rifles.( I hated bieng with the Artillery, exept 7RHA).

I was chatting with a Brit Officer about a Sniper Country Euro Hawgs match, he seemed quite keen and figured we should be able to get the Brigades snipers involved, but short term wouldn't be a go because of unit commitments, I wonder if i can get the local Polizei snipers involved too, this could get pretty interesting.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <>
D - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 21:08:20 (ZULU)

Jr hit me off line with an e-mail I'll sent you the Mildot post

Semper Fi

Bomac <>
- Monday, January 27, 2003, at 21:29:03 (ZULU)

REF:  TSA and their new ability to deny application for / revoke airman certificates.

Normally the FAA has a period for comments prior to passing a new rule.  That was not done this time.  They are, however, taking comments after the fact.

If this is important to you, you can submit comments.   Believe it or not, those comments can make a difference.  For example, in the wake of 911 the FAA wanted to reissue all pilots licenses so that they would include a photo.  Not a bad idea until you realize that this would take the FAA years.  AOPA recommended and the FAA agreed to solve the photo issue by requiring pilots to carry a government issued photo ID (passport, DL, etc.) with their pilots license.

More info available on AOPA website

It remains to be seen how this will be applied.

Steve <>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 21:53:42 (ZULU)

Steve D.,, that black stuff on some boolits, isn't allowed in the house. Some love it, I don't, some swear by it, I don't. There are some F-classers at Butner that use it and do good, but I see mostly shiney copper ones.

It may take a while to clean the mess out of your tube in order to give shiney boolits a chance to show their stuff.

(my usual disclaimer: I'm not an expert, I just play here LOL)

Bolt <>
NC, - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 22:32:08 (ZULU)

Bolt, Black bullets and black rifles seem to go together. I dont let the stuff in the same room as the GA rifle. Pretty gun, prerty bullets. I was just wondering if its wother the trouble. Testing may be in order soon. Clean up will suck though...

I'm no expert niether. Just a Marksman but will get a new card as soon as I can shoot some matches. Fired a 180-4X sitting RF (First ten were 1 1/2 MOA low) and a 188-1X prone RF during my last practice session. Shoot only ten rounds standing slow fire scored a 91-1X for those shots. Ran out of time or I woulda fired the full twenty.

Chuck Hunt, I wont be at work Tuesday, so no shooting in the AM. I know you read this before going home.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Monday, January 27, 2003, at 22:57:14 (ZULU)


Hey man did you send me an e-mail w/attatchment?



Rich S. <>
Bal'mer, - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 00:36:40 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Most of our guys who shoot Moly do it because they HATE cleaning.  They shoot the match and run about 4 patches of a Kroil/Shooter Choice mixture down the pipe and then wipe it clean before the next match.  You get two sighters(foulers) in all events excpet the legs anyway,, so there isn't much of a downside in a HP rilfe IMHO.  I still use bright, and will continue to.

BTW,, 91 offhand is a great score.  If you can keep them 90+ offhand you'll have a "Master" card before you know it.  I'd have gotten mine if it wasn't for my last match,, where I shot an abismal 177 offhand. (I generally shoot about a 182)

HockeyRef,  where you at?  This is right up your alley,, eeerrrrr, shooting lane I mean ;)


If the new additions are going to be a problem,, I'll adopt to ease you burned;))

6.5x284 dies,

When I had the FagMag built there were no dies to be had.  Wes was kind enough to lend me a set of S dies.  I now have 4 bushings and have upgraded the seater to the comp die,, but my scores are no higher with the Comp seater than the standard seater.  Best part about the Redding dies is they don't rust as easily as some of the other dies.  They have earned my repeat business.  I hear the Forster Ultra seater is VERY nice, but why try and fix what isn't broke.....

Marc I.,

What do you plan on using the rifle for?  For Strict comp and F class the extra magnification will certainly help.  If she's gonna be a range queen, build it for the discipline you plan on shooting.  As far as brand,, I like all quaility optics, but buy what I can afford ;)  Used quality optics are great....


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 01:46:08 (ZULU)

Ok - Get out the rolled up newspaper because I may need it - here it comes.....

I would like to know when you guys line up on a 1K Match do you see more 6.5 X xxx than any other caliber?  Is this round that great or just a fad?

Just wondering about this round, seems to be a lot of talk on this page about what it can do.....

Ok, slap me now !!!  LOL

I shoot 308,300WM I like the 300WM for longer shots.....

Thanks for your time,


BearMan <>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 01:56:40 (ZULU)

Fat Boy, I fired those scores after not having picked the gun up since 5-27-01. Haha. I guess practice is over rated. Prior to that I usually shot mid 160's to low 170's. I have two hunderd 75 grainers left and three hundred 69 grainers before I need to decide what to do. I don't like a lot of cleaning so I may still stick with it. just hate the black fingers when done reloading. I guess I will wait and do some testing.

Thanks to all who sent me the info I requested.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 02:10:36 (ZULU)


Last October I shot my first regional long range championship.  Out of about 75 shooters, better than 3/4 were shooting 6.5x284's.  The others were shooting Palma rifles or 300WM with very few other wildcats.  The 6.5x284 won every class and the overall match.  It pretty much speaks for itself.

That said, if you can handle the recoil, try a Berger 210VLD at 2950fps in your 300WM.  You should be able to beat the fagmags shooters, if the rifle doesn't kick your ass.

Dirty Steve,

I took 6 weeks off HP after I got my ass spanked at states.  Picked the rifle up one weekend and shot my first two master scores back to back.  So, there may be some thing to your last statement ;))  As far as Moly and load testing and all that,, I haven't shot HP long.  The first load I ever tried was a colabrative effort taken from both Hockeyref and Sinister Dave's advice.  It shoots to POA every time, no matter where my stupid ass is pointing the rifle.  Why fight with it, as we are area shooters anyway.  

The load is the same for both Moly and nekid,,, but I'd certainly work up.  LC Case, 205M, 24.3gr Varegt, 69SMK for 200/300 and 80SMK for 600.  Each one of these loads has cleaned at least one 10 shot string last year, in each position except Awefullhand, where my best was a 96-6X.


Chris <>
Confusious say, , "FagMags are like Doritos,,, you can't have just one", - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 02:10:52 (ZULU)

Pete L;

  I will look at the Brit Regiments. I'm the only bidder on the Green Howards badge. There were several other Brit Army badges, but I went with just this one.

  A colorful name and a colorful history. How can I go wrong? I'll clean it up nice and put it on my new shooting hat I'll be getting this spring.


  How does the Enfield shoot at 300? I'm kicking around some ideas about a War Between The States rifle for hunting and range use. Have you shot a Springfield 1861? I want a Whitworth, but they are a little pricey.

               LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 02:27:42 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve (or is that "dirty-fingers Steve?):

Moly-be damned.  the reason most use it (at least from what I've read)is for the increase in bbl life.  I have noticed that my groups are a little more "round" when I use the stuff.  It is a little more of a pain in the rear, but since I can't afford a new $400 bbl every year, I use it.  My last bbl had an actual round count of over 11,000 rounds through it, without any noticeable loss of accuracy.  The only reason I changed it out was  that stainless steel tends to go south all at once, and I didn't want a smoothbore right in the middle of the State Championships.

As far as the dirty fingers, c'mon, bubba, I know you got some stuff called "soap" around the house somewhere, 'cuz yer wofe gots ta make ya bathe once in a while.  Try using it on yer fingers.....can't go shooting tomorrow, anyway.  I gotta finish the bathroom floor, or Boudicca says that I'll be sleeping in the garage.  

By the way, the last time Steve and I went out to the range, I had one strange thing happen.  When I worked the bolt after a shot, I noticed that a lot of burned powder grains fell out of the case.  Just to be sure, I pulled the bolt and looked down the bore.  There was a thick layer of powder grains from the chamber to the bore.  Anyone ever seen that, and can maybe tell me what might have caused it? I saw that that particular shot went waaay high, 3" at 100 yds.

If you want to answer off-line, my actual address is  I still can't get signed on to the roster with the new one.  Any info would be helpful, as it has me stumped...thanx in advance.

Charles S. Hunt <>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 04:57:13 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Charles and Chris pretty much covered it. Those that use molly say that they use it for one of three reasons:

1) easier cleaning - Now I shoot 'em nekid and all I use after an 80 round match is a shot of break free followed by several passes with a brush, shooters choice wet and dry patch for two or three patches, swab\soak for 5 minutes with shooters choice MC7 copper solvent and punch out with a dry patch - twice more Shooters choice to neutralize the amonia and then hose it out with brake cleaner or alcohol and dry patch. I'm done with no blue patches. Then again I have one of JR's barrels and it just does not foul..... My Krieger takes a little more work but not much.

2)Extend Barrel Life - I gotta toss the Bullshit flag on that one.... had an Eagle give up the ghost on "hallowed ground" with just 3000 rounds of molly through it... (Presidents 100, going back to the 600 yard line down 8 and feeling good about my chances, then I shot something like a 154 at 600 - it couldn't hold the 7 ring yet I shot a 199 with it at 600 the last match before Perry! YMMV but the bullet runnin down the tube ain't what wears it out, it's the hot gasses that kill your barrel (you know that already). Maybe that tube was destined for a short life, molly sure didn't help it any.

3) To get more velocity, or reach a certain velocity that gives you too much pressure when shooting nekid.

Now I know several guys that shoot molly for this reason. They either REALLY push the velocity envelope, or they are shooting long, heavy VLD's and couldn't get them to shoot well enough or fast enough without it. ME, I shoot 90gr VLD's NEKID and do just fine thank you.

Conclusion: use it if you want but it ain't no cure all, it does show some "settling" in some cases after the barrel is cleaned. (mine consistently shot 5 to 10 shots 3moa left and 2moa high out of a clean barrel) It might help or it might not.... Certainly won't kill ya unless you get molly on the wifies furniture, clothing, or skin.... certainly DO NOT leave black molly smudges on the neighbors wife or the babysitter. If you have it\use it now and have loads already, then I would likely tell you to just keep using it 'til the barrel dies. As for the "dirty hands", well you ARE "Dirty Steve" .... but seriously get some of those rubber gloves for washing the floor or dishes... Or maybe those heavy brown ones they use in the ER when they stitch you up. It's not a bad idea to wear 'em when cleaning your sticks too.... those chemicals are BAAADD JUJU and do get absorbe through your skin.

Later mang! .........edited to correct for fat fingers.

Steve ~Hockeyref <>
THere's a thaw a comming by the end of the week!, Probably just to tease us, gonna freeze solid agin don't cha know - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 06:59:12 (ZULU)


You have mail. N/A.

JR and Jaeger,

I was shooting the Baer 45 and at 25 yds or less I couldn't tell any difference. My question was vague to say the least, my humble apologies. I tried head shots at 3, 7, 10, 15 and 25 yds. POA was no different than at 100 degrees in Texas. POI was still where I wanted it. Question answered. It drops so much at 100 it's like throwin eggs.

JR, the range is next to the pond where I was ice fishin. Took beer with me yesterday and it froze before it was time to have one. Better switch to somethin stronger huh?


I lost your phone # in a stack of schtuff. Resend please.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 11:47:23 (ZULU)

Bruce (Mr. Mildot)

Are you working a Gen II version of the MildotMaster? One that would correspond to Gen II reticle from Premier? If you have already discussed it I apologize, I couldn't find any reference to it in the archives.  

Michael <>
CA, USA - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 13:52:02 (ZULU)

Chris & Yotebait..

  I think I have finally got my 260 shooting where I want now. I went to the 140MK over the 142MK and the AMAX because I can seat to the lands and still fit them in the mag.

  This rifle for some reason likes the bullets right out there next to the rifling. All the bullets shoot well seated out but the 140MK is the only one that will be practical for the tactical matches because I will be able to load out of the mag.

  I did some 700 and 800yd testing last night and it shot under MOA with no problems for 5 shot groups. My 800yd targets were really good but the 700 was good enough to have the loads narrowed down to one load now. I have lost the vertical stringing that I had before. The 140MK solved that but then once I seated the other two bullets closer to the lands this also seemed to tighten up the vertical stringing on those loads.

  My old shooting partner may have been right on with his advice to seat them closer to the lands. This may be one to file away for future problems. Thanks for the thoughts and to the rest of you guys who came up with ideas also. Many minds are better than feeble one!!


 Great post on the mildot ranging!!! Thanks for posting it Bomacv!!

Pat <>
- Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 14:32:01 (ZULU)


good to see the 260 come together.  Once I get a minute away from work I'm going to do some loading for both the 6.5x284's.  

Still gotta bed the new one,, and get the scope base....  Fun fun!


Chris <>
- Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 14:58:27 (ZULU)


In case anyone is interested I have posted some High Resolution scans of maps of the Middle East and maps of some other areas that I have come across.  Most of the scans are from the CIA Middle East Atlas, 1993.

I mainly use this site as a way to share these with members of my unit and also with those in some of my college classes.

Please email me if anyone finds these useful.

Click my name or the cut and paste the URL below


dakotaaviator <>
- Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 18:21:39 (ZULU)

Ref: Mil-Dot Ranging

Here is a piece I posted over on "Sniper's Hide" a while back.  There seems to be some interest in the subject here of late so I cut and pasted it here.

The use of the mil dot reticle and the WORM formula for range determination is a great tool for the sniper however it does have limitations.

The greatest limitation of the mil-dot reticle for range determination is that an object of known size must be in the proximity of the target. In training the human silhouette is often used for ranging with much emphasis given to learning average heights or shoulder measurements. The use of a silhouette for range determination was spawned on the range where the iron maidens stand motionless, providing a high contrast target. In the field the enemy will seldom provide themselves for ranging purposes. The fleeting nature of real targets dictates that the range be determined before the enemy is seen. The time required to determine range using mil-dots just takes too long.

During operations in urbanized terrain objects of known size are common almost everywhere however in operations in areas where there is little evidence of civilization such as the forest, desert or arctic there are seldom any objects to use for mil-dot ranging.

When there are objects of known size to use for mil-dot range determination the next limitation will show itself. The further away a target is the more precise the range determination must be however the mil-dot ranging method becomes less precise as range increases. Let’s take a look at an example.

The object used in this example is an 18” wheel rim on an automobile. For the sake of this example we’ll assume that the automobile is parked perpendicular to the snipers line of sight and there is no slope so the aspect ratio on the rim is 1:1. If it were any other way then the apparent size of the wheel rim would change introducing even more error into the equation.

The sniper views the target through a scope with a Gen II mil-dot reticle (perhaps the finest tactical reticle in the world). He can see that the wheel rim is more than .6 mils high but less than .8 mils high. He decides the wheel rim is .7 mils high (the rim is actually .667 mils high). The sniper has made an excellent call.

Appling the math: (18*27.77)/.7 = 714 yards

The sniper applies the come-up data (.308 Win) to his scope for the range (+20 moa).

He then shifts his aim to his target (an enemy sniper using the car for cover) and fires. The target is actually at 750 yards. The strike of a perfectly fired shot will be one foot below the point of aim. Did our sniper hit his target? Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t.

He did everything right and well within the military acceptance standard which is +/- 5%.

As the range increases past 750 yards and the target size (18” wheel rim) remains constant the error grows and grows resulting in even wider misses. For the mil-dot reticle to produce usefully accurate ranges the size of the object measured must increase as the range increases.

In the example, had the sniper used the car length (16’) as a target for his mil-dot ranging measure he would have seen the car to be 7.1 mils long on his Gen II reticle.

Appling the math: (192*27.77)/7.1 = 751 yards

Every sniper must master the use of the mil-dot reticle for range determination. However the limitations of the reticle demand that other methods of range determination also be known and employed.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 18:52:42 (ZULU)

Uh oh, somebody got the Sunday Edition(with adverts) rolled up newspaper thwackin..

Sorry Bomac, should have warned ya.  Ya'll know 'lito still lurks, so if he thought it should be reposted, he'd have done so in a heartbeat.  Apparently he didn't think so, so, hah, there you go..


Nah, you weren't being too vague, I'm just too damned specific.  


the version that doesn't rub off in your hands, if you can keep a pocketful of the moly'ed bullets that doesnt turn your bunnyears black, that's the ok stuff.  The other stuff is just plain shite, IMHO.  Tumbled moly ain't worth a damn.  When hockeyref and I discussed this when making his barrel, I was tempted, he's running a very sharp helix angle, and I had concerns whether he was going to have trouble getting the bullet started in the rifling and keeping the velocities up.  But luckily the barrel rifled smooth, and the tops of the lands looked spot on, and he hasn't said, but I don't think he's come upon a high chamber pressure problem, as long as he keeps his chamber dry, hehe..  With the width of the lands, the bullets he was using, I think moly would have inhibited his situation.  As long as he's getting what he wants, I think he should stick to his program.  

Who was it who said when stainless goes, it goes?  It's not like it just decides to go, mate, there are surefire signs!!  You get alligator skin, dried up pond lookin throat, it's time to find someone who makes barrels.  What happens is that a flake of the metal comes off that alligator skin, attaches itself to the bullet and buggers your day, that chamber is done.  But you can predict it.  Which is why I say leave yourself some room to rechamber if possible, a lot of times if you set the shoulder back and recut the chamber you'll get another barrage of rounds thru that pipe.  A lot of times they shoot even better after a rechamber, why? I don't know..


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 19:14:32 (ZULU)

Pat; glad you got it shooting. I'm not sure how I can relate the length thing vertical stringing but I can would sure buy that it tightens your groups. All my accuracy shooting involves fireformed brass and seating as far out as possible or until I'm right at the rifling. The 22-250 is particularly good because the magazine is enough longer than the case enough that bullets can be seated way out.

My .223 is the only rifle that I use full sized brass and it too shoots better with fireformed and seated out bullets. The magazine insert shortens the magazine though so that I can't reach the groves but it' shoots one holers anyway. Can I ask if you are full sizing your brass?

JR, I kinda believe it's due to the smoothing effect of a coupla thousand rounds has on the bore. New Chamber and it's good to go.

"The time required to determine range using mil-dots just takes too long." Kevin posted.

And that Gentlemen is why I use da Sheep scopes.I save dialing time and the error for ranging is about the same in the field. (Rick will argue that! He says not.) I could never beat my ranging with my M3 or the 4.5X14 Mildot I had. Maybe it's lack of training?  Who knows.

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 19:23:18 (ZULU)


it's either that, or the fact it was shooting so bad, that when it's brought back to life, it seems like it's shooting better then ever  ;)  And YOU!!, aren't you the one that cuts it off at the wrong end?  ;P  By the time Bill gets done rechambering and shortening the barrel, the pointy end of the boolit is hangin out the muzzle... j/k

JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 20:23:07 (ZULU)

A while back I asked a question about bases+rings for my PSS. 'Lito recommended QRW bases and Burris Signature rings (with synthetic inserts). Now my scope is on order (M3-LR), I come to buy the rings+bases.

Checking Burris' website the only 30mm Signature rings (Weaver) are extra high. Clearly not what the doctor ordered.

I still like the idea of synthetic inserts as it should remove any need for lapping. Anybody got any ideas?

Or should I get my credit card out, take a deep breath, and go Badger for both rings+base? I do want to get this scope mounted as low as possible.

PeteL - sorry man, S&B just dont do it for me.


Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 20:30:02 (ZULU)


I use the Berger 210VLD's with R22 in my 300WM...I was shooting about 3025fps with outstanding results....until the barrel went south.

I just wish I had a place to shoot past 885yds.

Anyway I will have to work up a new load...Should get my rifle back from Mike Rock this week, New Barrel and trued reciever. I feel like a kid in a candy store...Anticipation is getting to me......


I think the pain of waiting for your riffle. Is worse that than all the Bum Knees on this site.


bryan <>
CA, - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 20:44:40 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger...

There is alot to be said for getting the scope low on the riffle...

You have to be carerful that it is not to low. Because the bolt will hit the eyepiece.

There are several guys on this site that have been there done that...

Listen to them and go with there recommendations...

Personally I would go for the Mark IV rings and base. It will work with your scope and rifle.


bryan <>
CA, - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 20:49:17 (ZULU)

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) > Good post on Mil-Dot Ranging.  Now where is my tape measurer?  Got a lot of things to measurer. :-)


HDR <>
OK, - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 21:36:54 (ZULU)

Tiger; the synthetic inserts are my choice. You relieve stresses althrough the action and the scope tube. Lapping sucks as you will readily see if you get to it. Badgers and the MK Leupy's have the strength to pull the action to confirm with them. Lap em and it works but whydayawannadothat? No matter you are still mounted to a couple of little screws at the bottom. IF there are no stresses when the unit heats up I think it comes nearer to staying true to it's forged form. Just my nickel's worth.

Brogers <>
- Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 22:05:30 (ZULU)

Pat (Mr. Bullet)

Mail Call.  No attachments.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 22:46:04 (ZULU)

Subject: Why We HAVE To Fight The War

This essay by William A. Whittle is dead nuts, spot on, etc.  Could have been written by Krauthammer it's so good.  Long, but worth the read.


Don Smith <>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 22:53:41 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger,

             You want to mount an M3 LR scope to your PSS? Has anyone mentioned that you will be lucky to reach out past 600yds. if you use a flat scope base? You need about 20MOA of taper in the base (or rings) to get to the longer ranges because of the limited amount of elevation clicks 'up' in this particular scope.

             I'm sure that 'lito had that in mind when he recommended the Burris Signature 'Z' rings. If you go with them be sure to order a set of the offset inserts also, because I think that the ringset comes with the zero degree ones in the 30mm version.

             Other than the Burris rings with something like the QRW bases, you'll need the Badger 20MOA base and their standard ringset, or something similar from one of their competitors. My advice - go with the Badger setup and never look back. You won't have to lap the rings as long as your action is straight and level. Ask Marty at Badger for details. I have many different sets of tactical rings and all of the lapping equipment that I need, but I've never had to lap the Badgers.BTW - I shoot the PSS, M3 LR, Badger combination all of the time. The scope mounts pretty low. Low enough for a person with my physical characterstics to get a decent cheek-weld!


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 23:22:16 (ZULU)


Just back from the Orthodepic specialist. Good news! The good news is I can go back to work in a "limited status". The bad news is that the miniscus appears to be torn. Scheduled an MRI and will check the soft tissue. Then possible surgery. In the meantime I'm waiting for paperwork and assignment back to duty status. I'm jazzed...

Some very useful posts lately. Let's keep it up...feel like I don't have much to contribute to "the masters", but will keep showing my ignorance anyway...;-)

The .300 mag is almost ready to go...can hardly wait.

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 23:57:52 (ZULU)

John - You have Mail ...


BearMan <>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 01:53:25 (ZULU)

Any of you fellas ever been to Brazil ? May have an opportunity to teach down there. Never been though.


brian k. sain <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 02:35:34 (ZULU)


On the mildot system past 700-800 yards...

The determining of distance delimna is only one of the issues at those ranges and correct distance influences a lot of other shit too.  For example if you determine a target is at 750 and it is actually at 825 and you base all of your windage corrections on 750 vice 825 that will hose you also.

THIS is one reason why a battle field sniper's meat and potato distance is little past 600 in real life.  All this "one shot, one kill" at 1000 yard BS is just that...BS!

ANyway...have a nice day.

Out here

Gooch <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 03:40:55 (ZULU)


    Great news about your knee. Hope the follow-up goes well.

Also, glad to hear that the .300WM is almost ready, lucky that it's not your shoulder that's injured ;-)) JUST KIDDING - it'll be a pussycat!


     Has anyone out there checked out Remington's new 40-X Tactical rifle? I wonder if they've been able to maintain the quality on that line? Rifle looks interesting. Any info or comments would be appreciated.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 04:41:11 (ZULU)

Burris; has a 50mm  4.5 to 20 with Mil dots on 3 of the reticle wires. They are round instead of football. AO out front of course, where it should be and calibrated so you can tell where to start working the parallex out. The 4th bottom wire has ticks at the pertenant ranges. No yardage numbers just tics on the wire. Your Mil for the dots is 14 power so you have room to adjust that up or down. The glass is pretty fair and the weight is right for the objective size. There are no target turrets, and no dialing 140 clicks to get there and  back, no tapered bases. All right on the tube.  you just shoot on the right tic. No special bases needed.  The tics are only out to about 700 yards.. That's about as far as the meat get taken anyway. IF the tics are slightly off you just memorize where they hit. IF you want a closer match just figure what power it is, and unlike the etched on ret. of the Sheperd it's changable with power. Interesting Idea. You can use it on any rifle just by calibrating the tics or changing the power then then calibrating.  Like you do on the turrets that aren't zactly for your load. What if it's 720 instead of 700 you are interpolating with Mil Dots all the time. Bears watching a nicely finished Matte at $400.00 bucks.     It's time for a little improvement in speed and turret cranking.   It looks like a new Generation of common sense applied to me.

Haven't shot it yet but plan too shortly.

JR. I seem to have located the magic length for .308 barrels. Not fast enough to stay supersonic beyond 800 reliably at 800 to 1000. Wind in your face and it falls into the barrier.  Hard Wind behind and it sails in. I am beginning to favor 22 as a better length than 19". AT this altitude and barometer average. At the practical lengths we are starting to talk about (face up too) this isn't a problem but we all like that magic 1000 yder.

Brogers <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 05:58:25 (ZULU)

Not to sound like a Badger commercial, but I don't understand fooling around with inserts, and hoping that it all works out when you can just buy cheap beer for a week or two, save the extra $30 or so dollars, look on the Emporium, (or contact one of the high volume Badger guys) and get the Badger rings and base setup. It will work, it will be repeatable, and you will only spend the money once.

I have (long ago) tried to halfway do it, and ended up spending twice the money and twice the aggravation. Now I just go Badger, and I know that it works.

(Just my opinion)

Michael <>
CA, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 06:54:52 (ZULU)


I had a medial menisectomy done several years ago. It was the most beneficial "cut" I've ever received. You'll be down for 2 or 3 days and then do the therapy thing. You'll really appreciate it next huntin season.


So, if my boolit hangs out the enda my barrel, it's to short? Uh-oh. Hacksaws should require a class 3 license. :))


Excellent post. Thanks. If you're in town this week, give me a call after dinner.


John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 12:21:09 (ZULU)

Nite vision??,

Does anyone know if $900.00 is a fair price for a reconditioned PVS4 Gen2 scope?

Thanks, John

John <>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 12:37:53 (ZULU)


  Glad to hear your finally going back the right direction for once!!I have been telling you for a couple of years now that those 22" barrels are the best of both worlds. Great handling and will still shoot to 800 in the 308s and further if you reload. Now if I could just get you to try a 6.5....

Pat <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 12:54:26 (ZULU)

Michael; it's really not about the money. IT's about stresses and weight for me. Some of those bench guns that are passed off as sniper rifles would be tossed aside in favor of M-16s in about 30 minutes of packin em up some real mountain terrain. I cut barrels and flute and keep it light just from past experience at altitude and distance. Trade off's if you will. Sure a 26" barrel has more velocity and a 30 has more yet. A 15 pound rifle is more stable or at least feels that way. But your ass is  sparse grass in the mountains with these things. A scout sniper isn't much good if he can't move. IF he's exhausted he's hampered. For LE weight is OK if your able to "stand off" but when you go in you need the light again. When you have to retreive it from a vehicle in a chase or in a hurry it needs to be fast to aim. YOu don't have to have 2 lbs of scope mount to hold zero.

Pat; you're right about the 6.5 or even the 7mm-08 should out perform the .308 at 1K.  It's been a day or two since I've taken a shot at 1k to kill something but I'd still like the capability.

Roger the 22". It is our conclusion after a lot of metal work that is the best all around for ,223 ti ,308.

Brogers <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 13:30:26 (ZULU)

Pat L..

 Pat hope you still read SC if so I tried to respond to your e.mail but it kept kicking it back to me. I am not sure about the D&L shoot this year but if I go I plan on shooting it with my son if he doesn't get called to active duty.

 Thanks for the offer though I would shoot with you anyday!!!

Pat <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 15:36:47 (ZULU)

Ref: Heavy Rifles

Everyone likes a light load when crossing contour lines.  If 15-17 pounds is too heavy for a sniper rifle then I guess the M-60 GPMG is way too heavy at 23 pounds or the 90mm Recoiless Rifle is completely out of the question at 35 pounds.  I carried both of those overweight weapons for quite a while.  Packing a SWS weighing 15-17 pounds is not a problem for a properly conditioned 20 year old sniper so long as the rest of his load isn't back-breaking.

Ref: AN/PVS-4

At $900 a fully functional device without too many hours logged on the intensifier tube is a heck of a deal.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 15:45:37 (ZULU)

Hello all, can't get rid of me that easy!

>>>>>Kevin Mussack writes:  Everyone likes a light load when crossing contour lines.  Packing a SWS weighing 15-17 pounds is not a problem for a properly conditioned 20 year old sniper so long as the rest of his load isn't back-breaking.<<<<

Well, I have to disagree with this:  Number one, most 20 YO snipers ain't very good.  Too young, too dumb.  Big balls, small brains, too little real world experience.  Sorry, that's just how this 27 YO sees it.  When I was 20, I was lugging a M60E3 gun and spare barrel bag(the one man gun team!) or M2 receiver and it was no fun.  And that was at regular grunt speeds.  The same kind of weight at sniper speeds(about twice the pace of an grunt company) is rediculous.  Plus regular grunts on the move with MG's or RCL's have the situational awareness of a tree stump.  Did a MCRSS with a M60E3 and a god damned bulldozer could have run me over and I wouldn't have noticed it.  You have point elements that run light and aware in regular grunt units.  That don't fly in a four man team.   Weight for the sake of weight is dumb.  You have so much other shit to carry it ain't funny.  Water, 5590's(batteries), HF radios, VHF radios, UHF radios, a M16A2rifle, ammo, grenades, smoke, flares, Claymore, E-tool, survival shit, cold weather/raingear shit, night vision shit, etc etc.  100 lbs of light weight shit is still 100 lbs!  I can shoot my 11 lb 700 VS the same or better than my 14.5lb M40A1, and that's 2 qts of water difference.  Or a suppressor;)  Light weight is good!!!  S/F...Ken M        

Ken M <>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA(sorta) - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 16:21:52 (ZULU)


Thanks for asking about the Gen. II.

I've been wanting to clear this up.

The Mildot Master will work for ANY reticle with mil spacing, be it dots (round or oval), hash marks, you name it. As long as the spacing between the dots or lines is true mil spacing. That, by the way, is crucial. I have had reports of some scopes sold with a 12X reticle in a 10X scope......guess what? They don't work!

When you mil a target you arrive at a numerical value, which you align with the target size to get a range. Doesn't matter whether you use round or oval dots or hash marks, you should always come up with the same figure.....For example, 1.7 mils.

The Mildot reticle on the face of the device is for illustration only. Reason I chose the footballs is that's what I have in my scopes. I will probably be getting a Gen. II soon, but I'm not going to change the reticle on the Mildot Master. If I deleted the reticle from its face, the device would work just the same.

As to the Gen.II, the Mildot Master definitely is compatible. Premier Reticles carries my device in their product line.

Hope this helps. Anybody needs more info, hit me offline.

Best Regards to all!

Bruce N. Robinson <>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 16:57:47 (ZULU)

Ken M,

 Gotta agree.  No substitute for experience.  A healthy dose of cynicism makes for accurate reports/ desicions.  Who wants to sort through "know it all" rookies' reports?  I just wish I understood this back when I, too, knew it all...heheh.  The weight in the ruck brought back memories.  I spent hours scrubbing my pack for each Op, shaving ounces here and there. Max allowable for me was 125 lbs.  And then only if a cache was planned within 15 miles of insertion...I wonder how I was able to do that?  My old bones would laugh at that load now.  

Chris or Lito,

 I'll have some time to read for the next year or so.  Any recommendations on "how-to" books for reloading?  I want to bring a small library with me.  Upon my return, I wanna start on this obsessive life change.  (God help me) Email me offline if you have suggestions.  

Wifey is starting to worry big time.  I just hope she doesn't start spending my SGLI just yet.  Heheh.  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 18:10:09 (ZULU)

Back at work, going to be a long week.

Had the honor of meeting with Jerry Rice on Monday, we went out and tried to call in some coyotes, they must have known it was us, none came in.  I did get to shoot a couple of his rifles though, my wife is going to kill me if I buy another gun, still tossing this one around... :)

Had to call off our hunting on Tuesday.  A good friend and fellow paramedic died Monday.  He was involved in a helicopter crash last March.  Has been in the hospital since the crash, most of that time in ICU.  It wasn't a totaly unexpected death but that doesn't make it any easier to lose a friend.  We are setting up an emergency vehicle precesion and memorial service next Tuesday.  Thats 2 on the job deaths in our small company in less than a year, I think I need to find another line of work.  

Back to work,


Robert H <>
Ne, Ca, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 18:54:03 (ZULU)

Damn!..I love this group!

Even when I post something stupid I learn stuff.

In reference to the SWS weight thing and Ken’s response I was oblivious to a couple of very important points Ken brought out.  My frame of reference was my personal experiences as a 90mm gunner and a M-60 gunner. (FWIW, Ken I was humping that stuff about the time you were a toddler.)  I remember the zombie like trances I’d go into just to survive the movements and road marches.  I would have ZERO SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.  I was totally reliant on the rest of the platoon particularly the point element to keep a look out for me.  I never made the connection before.  Now I get it.  As the weight of the load goes up the ability of the sniper to move with stealth and alertness goes down…..duhhh……now it’s obvious.  Thanks Ken.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 19:11:26 (ZULU)

Joe M, you have mail from my work email... it's the one that starts with JM@......

medicjim <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 19:33:38 (ZULU)


Ass-u-ming you ment myself,, I am but a novice loader.  With the help of a former rosterfarian and a Patron, I learned to reload in one night of emails ;))

Some of the highpower books are pretty good, but get to be anal in their approach to loading.  If I can find it, 'Lito gave me an exquistly detailed version of how to load a bullet.  (You remeber the article for TAR magazine 'Litosan ;))  When I get home tonight I'll look and see if I can find it.

If you got about a year of down time,, you should start pulling the handle over there,,, you could start an ammo company ;)


Chris <>
- Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 20:12:32 (ZULU) build or buy?  


  Have a shooting buddy who's got a TRP operator, as well as a bunch of other 1911s..Seems to be an OK pistola..His was was one of the 1st batch to come out, so, don't know what diff. that would make if any.  It is reliable and accurate right out of the box. For the features one gets they seem to be a good buy.

  Having one built is the ultimate in fun and anticipation{it's also more expensive}...Get a Series 70 or earlier Colt, send it to a reputable smith, and enjoy the results. I'm lucky to have several custom 1911s built from the '70s thru the mid '90s by asstd. smiths.  They are a joy, and I'd bet my life on any of them.

We are melting down today. About time it got above freezing.

  outa here

Markwell <>
Dreaming of spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 21:03:59 (ZULU)

I managed to get in some pistol shooting this morning and had some fun, Its not only remington who have Quality Control problems, this was a brand new Smith n wesson .22 target pistol, the slide wasn't machined out enough and the exess metal prevented the hammer from giving the firing pun a full strike, machined out the unwanted bits( yeah i know it should have been a garantee thing, but send a S&W back to the US and you don't see it for a year, it was good any way to get down the range and give the thing a good blow out. The thing shot great too, be a nice plinking tool to teach a young un with.. Also seem to have baught a Weihrauch target revolver in .22, it was in for de commisioning, because the guy needed to get rid of it to be able top buy a new one on his  restricted( aren't they all here) licence, i figured it was to nice to just trun into scrap, so i made a ridiculouse ofer and he accepted, talk about bieng in the right place at the right time, the thing looks like new.

Well hunting season finnishes in 2 days, looking back it has been a very interesting Jagd jahr, 2003-2003, had a bit of a count up and i seem to have shot 14 pigs and 17 deer, a ma´rvelouse experience each and every one of them. the highlights of the year have definately got to be, marco shooting his first ever big game, the trip to scotland with marco, Val and Jo, and us meating up with JonB there, My big boar and then the driven pig shoot a few weeks ago. I've had a lucky season, and one of the most enjoyable so far.I'll be using the next 2 months, untill the start of the next hunting season, to build some tree stands and blinds and get some seriouse range work done.

Bisley T, i see you are blaspheming again, just wait in 50 years time, when i'm still clicking in the adjustments on my PMII, you will have forgotten you ever owned a Leupold, what you pay for it if i may ask.

Ref the rings. Get the Badger. if you cant afford that, Get MWG mounting solutions. Screw the lapping and inserts, bed the scope into the rings with bedding compound, it glues the scope in, takes up any tollerances and prevents moisture rusting the inside of the rings or the scope tube( if it isn't alloy, but even alloy chorodes)if you stick to a picatinny style base you will never have to remove the rings again, no matter what rifle you put the scope on.

Torf.. H&K mounts, (30mm)are 210 euroes, best price i could get. Confirm that in email when i get to work.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 22:07:46 (ZULU)


On pack weight...

Kevin, SLA Marshall recommended no more that 35 pounds for an infantryman. I've see loads in the 90-100 pound range. Because I'm 5'4" I detest MG's and mortar base plates...;-)

So, that gives you your rifle and say 15-20 pounds of mission essential equipment. NOT gonna happen any time soon.

Still, the old grunt addage of "travel light, freeze at night" has certain validity.

I've been cleared for light duty and start back tonight. I'm a happy camper...

Semper Fi,


Wes Howe <>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 22:08:30 (ZULU)


You've got mail.

John Bechtell <>
historic Gettysburg, PA, USA - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 22:22:06 (ZULU)


Hell I wish everyone would order barrels in 20-22", watchin those decks of the Pratt & Whitney riffle the 31-36" is like watchin a one man tennis match..  Plus half the stroke with the handlapping, yeah I'm all for the short barrel..  Own a 7-08 in 22" version, love it.  Accurate, quick, light, perfect for what I designed it for.  The thing you get with a shorter barrel, excepting the lost velocity(velocity ain't everything), is increased muzzle pressure as compared to a longer barrel, which is why the connect the dot benchresters and paper shooters tend toward the longer pipes..  godda throw somethin technical in there, pay my dues...


Double check and make sure you understood what ol 'lito perscribed, and why.  I'm sure you all ready have, but email him.  He's a crotchety ol' fart, and he's even more crotchety if you blast 'im on SC without havin a word with him first, plus he's rarely off the mark when it comes to setting a guy up.  I know I'd put my money on him..

later hawgs

JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 23:14:14 (ZULU)


 I've got a dog eared and well read copy of S.L.A. Marshall's book "The Soldier's Load and The Mobility of a Nation" right here.  There is a bunch of good stuff in it.

 In a nut shell what SLAM proposes here is that the soldier train with a combat load equal to one third of his body weight.  When deployed to combat only four-fifths of that load should be carried.  He writes, "The optimum figure indicated for the working combat load is therefore forty to forty-one pounds per individual."

 In every case the Colonel is making reference to conventional infantry troops supported by a fully operational motor transport logistical apparatus.  He never mentions special operations soldiers behind enemy lines and out of reach of conventional resupply.

 I fear a solution will continue to elude us.  



Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 00:06:52 (ZULU)

Pete L,

a restricted licence that includes pistols? what wouldnt I give for one of those in the UK.... after Dunblane, the shooting associations chose to pursue the course of action that 'we will not accept any restrictions because of the actions of one madman. The guy was a nutter, and dont punish us for the actions of someone else'

As you know, the outcome of this was that all center-fire and rim-fire pistols were banned. right now, I would much rather have a permitted 6 shot revolver than a banned 17 shot Glock.

For the Loopie 3.5-10x40 Vari-X III LR, I'm paying 700 quid. After trying Leupold and S&B, I prefer the second focal plane reticule of Leupold, the smaller objective (hopefully mount it lower), and I didnt like the fact that when I dialled the S&B down, the edges all went out of focus.

As for longevity, if I'm still pulling the trigger in 50 years, I'll buy you and me a new scope!


I wouldnt blast 'lito on the DR - I'm too scared! I did get hit with the rolled up newspaper from 'lito about this originally. From the Catshooters keyboard:

"Get a pair of Lupold "QRW" bases for the M700, and a set of Burris "Signature ZEE" rings (medium for normal scopes)."

Now if I could get medium 30mm rings - that is what I would use, but all thats listed is extra high rings, and thats an entirely different ballgame.

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 00:30:23 (ZULU)

Last week I posted a query about two-stage trigeers for Remingtons. A number of you urged me not to spend good money on an aftermarket unit, but just adjust the factory trigger.

I'd like to say a big 'THANKS' to everyone. I followed 'Lito's instructions, and now have a trigger that has no creep and minmal overtravel. All this took about 15 minutes, and it was free!

If anyone's lurking and thinking about trying to adjust the trigger - just do it!

Bisley Tiger <>
Banned-it Country, England, - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 00:38:50 (ZULU)


 Solutions involving caches (where possible) and airdrop resupply add to your problems.  Compromise is a risk with either.  In a trade mag a few years ago, they were working on a giant square with a GPS guidance system.  Sorta "unmanned HAHO" pallet.  At least the drop could be offset from the inbound radar track of the resupply bird.  Wonder how that went?  The high speed bundle drop (HSLADS), a bungee-cord slingshot in the butt of the bird, eliminated signature "slowdowns" for these ops--but still tracked over the DZ.  The one factor I always considered in packing was 14 DOS for Class I in the ruck.  Relying on aircrews for my next snack never seemed prudent.  No matter how I tried, eightyfive pounds in the ruck was always a light load.  That will never change.  On some missions, you have the option of establishing your own caches for use later in the mission.  Those I hated the most...because ya still had to carry it away from the point of insertion, and the loads were crazy-heavy.  The good news is we have resourced SF rather well.  Dedicated helo's will alter the loads for certain SF units in a certain arid locale.  Water alone is too heavy for extended autonomous ops, and "living off the land" is a futile proposition in the desert.  You cannot change the conditions, but you can change the task and standard.  For now, we (leaders) understand the limitations.  Still, you hear some moron suggest throwing out LRSDs/SPEC Ops for weeks at a time...Young Majors mostly.  (grin)

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 00:39:56 (ZULU)

John (acehigh)

You got mail, 1 attachment, it's been scanned and is clean.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 00:44:40 (ZULU)

Pete L;

  What model S&W .22 do you have? I have a 22S that gives me some trouble sometimes. What was yours doing?

  Mine sometimes requires two pulls on the trigger to fire it. I gave it a really good, thorough cleaning but I've been deer hunting every chance I got so I haven't fired it since cleaning.


Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 01:16:05 (ZULU)

Soldier's load? 35 lbs is wise. The rifle can be extra.  More than 35 and a soldier will tend to dump it if fired upon. Extra ammo in belt or bandelerio form can be added. Certain loads like extra machine gun barrels can be distance shared like. Here I'll take it for a mile. You get it then.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 02:28:11 (ZULU)


Incoming, n/a clean. Subj: M70 receivers.


Larry J. Porter <>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 03:37:08 (ZULU)


Incoming message/question,  NO attachments.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <>
K Town, WI, US of Proud A - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 06:10:20 (ZULU)

Good day all...

I just had a chance to take out the "new" M1A and was pleased.  It shot very well with the 168MK.  I've been off the service rifle kick for a few months but might just start up's amazing what a new rifle will do.   The guy I bought it from left me a nice little surprize too.  He gave me a, in the wrap, M2 bipod and a can of M118.  Made my day =)

Rem 870 question...My department just got in a batch of 870 Marine Magnums.  A few had big red stickers on the box denoting them a "Euro".  The only differance I could see was the "Euro" guns were the older style recoil pads. Anybody have any idea what the "Euro" thing means?

Pete L-  What year is the Jeep (in Spanish it's pronounced Heep =)  I have a Chilton manual from my old Jeep and you can have it if its the right year.

As some of you know my better half is a good little Deutschelander.  from a town really close to Pete L.  Needless to say there has been a little tension regarding the state of our two countries.  Well, the other day I just let her have it with both barrels.  I won't go into details, but it was ugly.  I made it clear she was not allowed mess with the Red, White and Blue (that includes the Brit colors Pete and Bisley) and Germany did owe us.  I think I worried her...she had never seen me actually get MAD at her before.  But, my point was country first !!  Down side is I think I got myself cut off =(


Please keep your arms and legs in the car at all times....thank you.

Joe S.


Joe S. <>
Dago, SoCal, USA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 07:06:04 (ZULU)

Brogers, Good point about weight, but my GA Precision Rock rifle has a fluted shorter tube, M40 stock and the trigger guard, bases and rings are all Badger steel and I feel comfortable carying that all day. (I do not feel that way about all of my rifles!!)  


Thanks for the clarification!

Michael <>
CA, USA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 09:58:32 (ZULU)

Anyone here fimiliar with the 264 Winchester Magnum ? Ihave a chance to aquire one, It,s a Mod. 70. Rifle and scope for 275.00, If nothing else i thought i would have an action to build something off of.

Gary Kaney <>
N.W., ILL, - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 11:31:46 (ZULU)

Heavy Rifles & Packs...

  Ken M. good to see you back and good post!!!I am nearly 57 and can tell you that humping heavy rifles and packs are a thing of the past. I have humped a 50lb pack and hunting rifle up and down hills in Colorado and Wyoming hunting and it was no fun.

  I shot the D&L shoot 5 years and humped a 30+lb pack and a heavy rifle up and down hills in 100 degree heat and trust me when I say you don't need a rifle any heavier than 12lbs for "ANY" reason. A Rem varmint weight barrel will do anything a 1.25" tube will do for tactical shooting.

  I think the Marines are nuts for having such a heavy rifle period!!The other thing people don't think about is the stock. When your humping it, or carrying it, all those little adjustable things everyone likes tend to dig into every part of your body.

 Then have the sling stub pull out of the stock and have to carry it by hand. You will then see how well that heavy barrel, "Just lays out there so nice". It tends to balances like a anvel when your trying to carry it.

  You need a smooth stock with no square, sharp edges. A sniper is not going to get into a prolonged shoot out with anyone, so I see no need for a "Heavy" heavy barrel like they are now using.

  I was a fan of the heavy barrels too, but after humping them for a couple of years I have changed my mind. I put my last "Heavy" barrel on. My next ones will be no heavier than the Rem or Win factory varmint barrels. These barrels are adiquate for any type of shooting you will ever do.

  As far as packs go, well I don't want to even go there. Its just plain crazy to hump what these guys do. Thats why we have choppers. I remember the damn VC went for days with a AK-47 and a ball of rice in a palm leaf. One of the recent comments I remember was how the Afgans thought the Americans were crazy lugging all that stuff on their backs. Maybe we need to look at what were doing to these guys and ask why???

Pat <>
- Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 14:29:15 (ZULU)


Bad news.  Blackhawk just went down in A-stan.  Prelim reports are training accident, no hostile-fire.  No firm numbers for casualties.

Our thoughts and prayers for our brothers in harms way.


Caison <>
DE, USA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 16:12:46 (ZULU)

Pat....bravo, damn good post!!!  I will learn from your comments....


JRMoore <>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 16:17:50 (ZULU)

Lighter is better...From the perspective of one with a background in climbing/mountaineering FWIW...

  Lighter is less fatigueing{sp?].

  The less fatigue, the  sharper and more efficient you are.

  Being sharper mentally, and physically more efficient, means increased safety and a better ability to tackle the task at hand thus increasing ones' probability of succcess, survival, and attainment of the objective.

 That's my take on it.

 outa here

Markwell <>
Dreaming of spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 17:34:16 (ZULU)

Pat; X hit.

Mark; X hit.

Brogers <>
- Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 18:08:05 (ZULU)

Hey,JR, I cant recall hearing of muzzle pressure before,at least not in ref to actually firing the thing.Mostly muzzle pressure has to do with handguns and foreheads.Can you explain please??



Gavan Willis <>
- Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 19:23:16 (ZULU)

You have pressures throughout the firing cycle, it isn't just chamber pressure.  I don't know if you've seen a pressure curve in a barrel, but take for example x cartridge in 338 lapua mag x length barrel, you'll notice peak pressure starts dropping at say 150 mm down the barrel, then pressure slowly decreases as the length of the barrel.  As the column of powder decreases, as it burns, so does the pressures.  Think of muzzle blast, with a shorter barrel(compare the muzzle blast of an 17" 30-06 barrel to a 26"), you get more muzzle blast because the pressures at the muzzle are higher.  

Have you heard of LeDuc's equation?  Before I get into a 15 paragraph post on pressures in barrels..ha...decide whether it should be an article or a post..


Can't remember Dad complaining about the rifle weight, he was more concerned with the other crap he had to lug around.  They were issued x amount of ammo, but they always took at least twice with 'em, left a lot of the other basic essentials behind.  Could LIVE without food and water, plenty of that running around, never knew when you might end up in a firefight though, would hate to have too much food and not enough ammo...  I think he said he went in at 175 lbs, left at 108 lbs?  maybe he should have rucked more food...


...edited because of stupidity by self...

JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 20:38:51 (ZULU)

John-- As you know I come from the same climbing / mountaineering background as you.  I know that you have humped ponderous loads on approaches to remote climbs.  There can be little question that your last post is accurate, but it makes me wonder whether there is some difference between the activities- soldiering and climbing.  When I read some posts about carrying extreme loads for great distances I'm inclined to throw the BS flag.  We are all aware of comments about VC surviving for axtended periods with an AK 47 and a ball of rice and the Afgans questioning the loads carried by our troops.  My simple mind wants to ask whether we  really  really  really need all that STUFF.  Culturally, we as Americans, tend to work toward the "more is better "  end of the spectrum.  Who among you doesn't go into the field with more than you really expect to need or use . Does this impact, perhaps in some cases to our detriment, the way we fight?  Is it at all possible that "less is more" and that if we questioned, at least some, of the  US doctrine of the art of war that we couldn't be equally proficient as our opponents while carrying less?  Clearly, "culture" is a big hurtle to get over but it is a question that should be asked.    WE have every other advantage imaginable except for an intimate knowledge of the local environment.  And, in view of current US intel capability even that is open to question.  I am not questioning the training or fittness level of our forces directly, but rather whether there might be some social, cultural, or political underpinning for our approach to war fighting that might be altered to our advantage.  

Just went back and read all of the above, and will leave it alone,but will duck for cover.  

Just some thoughts of an idle mind.


Rod Hansen <>
- Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 20:56:40 (ZULU)

It appears our troops carry a lot of stuff the "enemy" hasn't invented yet...

medicjim <>
- Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 21:08:41 (ZULU)

and another thing, I think with dad's squad there were 2 snipers, 2 security, and one radio dude.. or minus one security, but I think there was 2...  Yes it's a matter of culture.  Before the gook carried the AK-47 and a ball of rice, he carried a ball of rice.  What in the hell is the Afghan gonna carry, what else does he have besides his Kalishnikov and his camel rope.  If they had more, they would carry more.  The weight the infantry will have to carry will increase if this new initiative for 'smart rifles' comes about, they got a big f'off shoulder harness battery pack which powers the sights, so's you can 'shoot 'round corners', weighs more than the GI.  They're adding 'smart ammo', which is 20mm, heavy..  my thought is send in one heavy sniper from 40,000 ft, fry the damned lot, nope actually send a second, Tower 1 and Tower 2....


JR <>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 21:39:45 (ZULU)

Dad sent this to me I just HAD to pass it on!!

I want you to close your eyes and picture in your mind the soldier

at Valley Forge, as he holds his musket in his bloody hands.

He stands barefoot in the snow, starved from lack of food, wounded

from months of battle and emotionally scarred from the eternity away

from his family surrounded by nothing but death and carnage of war.

He stands tough, with fire in his eyes and victory on his breath. He

looks at us now in anger and disgust and tells us this...

I gave you a birthright of freedom born in the Constitution and now

your children graduate too illiterate to read it.  I fought in the snow

barefoot to give you the freedom to vote and you stay at home because

it rains.

I left my family destitute to give you the freedom of speech and you

remain silent on critical issues, because it might be bad for business.

I orphaned my children to give you a government to serve you and it

has stolen democracy from the people.

It's the soldier not the reporter who gives you the freedom of the


It's the soldier not the poet who gives you the freedom of speech.

It's the soldier not the campus organizer who allows you to


It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves the flag, whose coffin

is draped with the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag!!!

"Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands. Protect them as they

protect us. Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they

perform for us in our time of need. Amen."


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 04:45:38 (ZULU)

Both sides of the argument are right! To have the technology and not use it would be foolish. To get weighted down because every sumbitch up the chain of command has to show how big his balls are and force his favorite stuff into a grunts' pack requirements is foolish too.

But we all know what really happens to all of that extraneous bullshit once we get into the hot zone! Grunts tend to take what they think they'll need, screw all that other crap. And if you can work out a buddy system it's all for the better.


Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 05:09:53 (ZULU)

Thought this was pretty neat......

What to do if you happen upon a peace rally by stupid naive hemp-shirt-wearing college idiots, to teach them why force is sometimes needed:

1) Approach dumb rich ignorant student talking about "peace" and saying there should be, "no retaliation."

2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate.

3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."

5) When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.

6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."

7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.

8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes it is necessary to punch back.

Sarge, nice post.

Later dudes....

Ryan-san <>
Abbottstown, PA, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 06:10:17 (ZULU)

The soldiers load and mobility of a nation debate hath begun.  Purple Dragon (or Barney), a big noisy joint exercise, brought the Paratrooper to the Marine; and I made a simple observation.  The Marine's load was 15 lbs lighter on average, he had more bullets, and his kevlar was strapped to his ruck until needed.  The Paratroop had his bucket on anytime and all times he was awake.  The Corps got the good cammey and common sense too.  Maybe my daddy was right when he said, "Son, your hitching with the wrong canoe club..." Heheh.

As for BS flags on ruck-weights, throw it all you want.  Just know that I hated every minute of BSing ya as I carried that beast off the DZ to the first planned cache...where I promptly unloaded forty pounds of chow, ammo and demo for later use.  UW missions, or multiple DA missions (servicing eight targets with four splits--we had that kind of redundancy with cross training) required one miserable night of carrying too much crap...that was just how it was.  12 guys, 2 HF sets, four LR internal commo sets, demo as required to drop spans (figure on counter-force charges to reduce the load some), 630 rounds per, 1 gallon of water, chow (at least 3 days of supply minimum, but we used dehydrated and 7 DOS, stretchable to 14), 2 M5 kits, 6 M3 kits for medical (plus'd up all to hell), survival gear, civies--cos we cheat, dry suit if water obstacles, and we did it in cold wx climates--cos we could, and tell me how to trim the effin' weight.  OK, the scenario is supposed to be 700 km deep into "soviet" zones, so planned resupply is a joke.  We also assumed no exfil during planning for the real-world gig.  Ever read a mission statement and hear the theme from mission impossible playing in yer mind?  Had the wall fallen to tanks instead of jubilent crowds--we were trained.  And the rucks were kinda big.  

Joe S,

Cut off?  There is cut off, then there is CUT OFF.  Don't let her Bob-it...LOL.

Thanks to all for the tips on reading and ACOG mounts.  I'm picking up a pre-ban CAR-15 on monday; I may even put on a sight b4 I least the wife will have something to either protect herself with or to impress Jody (heheh) while I am away.  

Giving up command, even for the fourth time, is an emotional experience.  I never realize how involved I get until it is time to go.  Damn, it is hard to ponder letting go.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 08:03:03 (ZULU)

J.R, Roger that and thanks.

ref loads, the vc were on their own turf,so are the ghans,they can resup on the run to some extent,if we were deployed at home we could probly take a phone card for coms and use Kwik Fried Cat or McShit for c rats,drop into wally world for ammo.:) sounds like fun.I once suggested cammo helium balloons tied to a 60 to lighten the bastard but the idea didnt seem to take off.



Gavan Willis <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 09:50:21 (ZULU)

Heavy gear and such:   Mission dictates what you carry..  Period..  Mission essential gear comes first and is divided among the team.  If your issued the 23lb M60 or a 17lb SWS then that's what you carry.  Along with side arm, assault rifle and all the ammo to go with it.  If the team has multiple targets than more gear and ammo is required.  If the team has to divide then more commo gear is required.   You skimp and save weight on things like food, clothing and creature comfort items.  What is essential is water and mission critical gear.   Any creature comfort items you have room for can be carried among the team members.  If a team memeber is on recon or out on an OP or LP then he doesn't need the warm clothing that the guy resting requires until it's his turn.   If a 20-30 year old grunt can't carry a 50 - 100lb heavy load than he needs more PT or a desk job.   The first thing you learn is never depend on your resupply or your extraction support.   This way you'll never be disappointed.

TonyY <>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 13:45:09 (ZULU)

Ref: The Soldier’s Load Dichotomy.

Lighter is better. Vs. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Where this all started was a post where I mentioned that if a 17 pound sniper rifle was too heavy then the M-60 and the 90mm RR were outrageous.  I went on to say that a properly conditioned soldier should have no trouble carrying a 17 pound rifle.

That’s when Ken brought up an important point.  When a sniper is over burdened he lacks the ability to move with stealth and he looses his situational awareness.

If the sniper is forced to carry a “too heavy” rifle that added burden will contribute to the degradation of that sniper’s ability to accomplish his mission.  It’s not about how much weight the sniper is capable of carrying it’s about how much he can carry and still be effective.

Some time ago I got embroiled in a thread about sniper rifles and their weight.  I asked, “If the CBS is what sniping is all about then why do we need these heavy barreled rifles?  Wouldn’t a hunting rifle be a better choice because sniping is essentially hunting after all?”

I got roasted!  The respondents did everything but call me a “dumb ass”.  They went on to explain to me the needs to mitigate pulse effects on the steady hold with a heavy rifle etc.

Well, I’m back.  Why not a lighter rifle?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 14:12:37 (ZULU)

Based on Kevin's latest post, I would like to pose a scenario involving a well organized domestic terrorist attack on a region of North Eastern USA.  I'm interested in initiating a discussion regarding general tactics, soldier's load, compexities of cold and urban setting... I'm not foolish enough to post this on an open forum, but would like to invite participants to contact me via email so that I can pose the intial scenario...  

My field of expertise centers on the emergency services in this region.  

medicjim <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 14:55:14 (ZULU)

When I first landed on the shores of SC. I asked the exact question in those exact words Kevin. Guess what? I got roasted.  I advocated shorter fluted barrels and smaller objectives and got roasted. Smaller packs was good for another roasting. Now the trend seems to be smaller lighter and fluted barrels (LTR). What's next? Oh no! Better reticles? What Mil Dots are fading!  NO way. What will be next a light weight polymer pistol to replace the ole... no way!

Anyway all that to say this, A marine that went on the shore at Inchon bay many years ago told me this.. The troups has 40lb packs and ammo. He was carrying a BAR and extra belts. This guy was 6'4" at 200 lbs and had the physique of Tarzan. Fresh out of boot and tougher than leather. (he still is). He had to jump over the discarded packs of the forward troups and as they took on fire. Everyone was down to nothing but sleeping bag, pauncho, water canteen and rifle. A few radios were seen but mostly it was M1,sleeping bag,water and the rest was ammo. During the battle most were so fatigued that they faltered. His Gunny came up pointed his .45 at him and asked if he was going or staying. The adrenilin kicked in and he got on his feet. I won't dice it for you but my dad said about the same thing about Normandy.

Brogers <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 15:21:57 (ZULU)


  Sniping/hunting analogy and the cold bore from a light rifle.

  You've been here to the Alleghenies and seen what the terrain is like..  I have lived here and hunted these mountains for over 30 years, long enough to age quite a bit and to have covered a fair amount of ground.  My white tail rifles have gotten lighter over the years and my trusty old Lilja barrelled SAKO 250-3000, which weighs 6 lbs., has harvested a pretty fair amount of venison, mostly 1st round kills.  Doesn't matter if I've been sitting and shivering for hours, or sweating with heart pounding while driving deer with the local boys, the light rifle always performs well in my hands.  Good field shooting skills, being able to improvise rests quickly, and picking ones shots carefully lead to success in the majority of cases regardless of range, within reason.  The rifle is not a tack driver,it shoots minute of white tail, but it consistantly delivers its' 1st shot to the same spot.  It is as predictable as sunrise, despite its light weight.  My next white tail rifle will be even lighter, and a single shot to boot.

  My main SWS is a LTR with 3.5x10 LR M3.  It has served me well at the Storm Mt. and other matches and I never felt the short bbl. and comparitively light weight were a hinderence in shooting out to the limits of the reduced velocity, about 750- 800 yds.  In a real situation, if it was too far for the gun, I'd try to get closer. This rifles' cold bore is also predictable.  It is certainly more convenient to carry, run, and stalk with than a "big" gun. Maybe I'm getting soft as I age but for me light is right for both hunting and sniping rigs as long as that first shot goes where it's supposed to.

   Light rifles have my vote as they work for me!

   Ducking behind the wood pile!!!

   outa here

Markwell <>
Dreaming of spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 15:44:27 (ZULU)

My 2 centavos about carrying loads. It aint so much the ruck being heavy, but the common useage of the Kevlar vest. It wieghs in at what 20-25 lbs and restricts movement, its hot and makes carrying a ruck difficult. Situational awareness goes out the window. These things only belong on static posts and chopper rides. You need beans, bullets and commo. Commo could be much lighter than we have now. When marching in cold weather you need to take off clothing and put it on when you take a meal or extended rest break. Wet clothing in the cold sucks.

Gunna send the diamond mine guy my personal info now so I can get rich.

Oh thanks to the guys who sent there 223 loads.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <>
San Antonio, Texas, US of A - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 16:07:05 (ZULU)

Ref: The Soldier’s Load Dichotomy.

Personally, I agree that there is absolutely no need for a SWS to weigh 17#.  While all my custom made barrels for tactical rifles wear heavy contours, I also have them fluted.  But, once you start putting on "stuff" designed to be tough, you start putting on the pounds.  I'm hoping the McMillan A-5 I have coming is fairly light, and mated to my FN SPR will produce a rifle in the 14.5# range.  But, since it will be also wearing Badger stuff, a steel one-piece TG/FP, and that damn heavy ST10 scope, I doubt it.  Just MHO.


Don K. <>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 16:29:09 (ZULU)

Steve; reminds me of another gear consideration and that's clothes. I'e been in the high country when I would have traded the best rifle I had for a good jacket. I try to use the layer method. Seems like good weather just doesn't know the mountains. Tactical matches tend to take place in summer weather and maybe wet is possible or even probable. (especially SW Okla in June) you might be uncomfortable but not dead like in the mts. Advances in clothes have lightened the load a great deal. Goretex in the Mountains is happiness is! A military paucho makes a good shelter but there are lighter and better ones now most likely. Nothing like a rock overhang and pauncho, some rope and a good fire. I do miss the high country. Remembering one hunt with a Styer Manlicher sniper rifle when the snow and rain was so slick and travel so bad that I traded it for a Ruger Ultra light .308 the second day because the weight of the rifle and big scope was such a factor in balance and climbing ability, it wasn't worth the accuracy difference. If I had been hunting men it would have been the same.

Next year I had a Browning A-bolt synthetic stainless in .270 in the rock hide.

Ya finally made me say it; Rifle's don't move by themselves unless the wind is really really high. I personally believe the harmonics and other construction factors overshawdow the weight as a accuracy enhancer. I'd rather have a George Gardiner 700 BDL than a Heavy bbl Sendero off the factory line.

Brogers <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 16:35:12 (ZULU)


  Looking back on the month of OCT., which we spent in a backcountry elk camp in the Hoback range in  Wy., every hunter we had complained about the weight of their rifle and after day one of their hunt all were de-assing s#^t from their packs. Most reasonable rifle I saw during three hunts was a Ruger RL in 308 with a 2x7 Leupold compact on it. The guy who owned it had hunted high before.

  outa here again

Markwell <>
Dreaming of spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 17:43:58 (ZULU)

Medic JIm,

Looking forward to your ideas


Terry Hoover <>
Kansas City, Kansas, - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 17:51:49 (ZULU)

Rifle Weight…

I am going to take a different interpretation and apply this to competition...

Guys, in my simple mind we are getting ready to see “The Great Schism” of this shooting discipline.

There are those that are purists and then those that are not.  I am afraid that we will see this shooting discipline go the way IPSC did when there was the split that gave birth to IDPA (but IDPA is getting complicated these days as well).  It depends on how you look at this chosen form of recreation.

Matches are evolving (and it is great don’t get me wrong…no one should advocate a static training or competition environment) but they are diverging.   We are seeing matches structured around marksmanship and high round count and these drive the heavy stock/barrel argument.  We are also hearing now about matches more centered around movement/fieldcraft with less focus on round count, these obviously drive the light/hunting type rifle argument.

The competitors and in turn the match organizers drive this.  Most match organizers seek some sort of feedback, this is given from the competitors and the event evolves from one year to the next.

It will be interesting to see where the middle ground will be (or if there is even any middle ground).   It is great that we can choose!  (Great thing ‘bout America isn’t it?).

Does this mean you have to have a bantam weight rifle to compete in more field oriented event?   NO…you may find yourself winded/tired with an elevated heart rate but this would tell me I need to focus a little more on PT and I may train a little harder to get ready for next year.

Does this mean you have to have a 18 lb rifle to compete in the more marksmanship focused events?  NO…you may shoot a lower score, but this may motivate you to go out and practice your fundamentals a little harder.  I don’t think I need to restate that there have been many a BR type with their jaw in the dirt watching like minded 308 shooters do their thing.

Anyway…point is I hope that the focus stays on the well rounded shooter that strives to do what he can with the tool he has.  Adapt and overcome, this fundamental premise of life has unbelievably far reaching implications.

PJC <>
Upstate, SC, US of A - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 17:53:28 (ZULU)

Guys i got some fan mail from this guy :, he said. "I think ur a hillbilly prick"  well, I've had worse compliments.

Bisley T, glad you got the trigger sorted, buy 700 quid for that  Leupold is expensive, thats 2100 DM or 1050 euroes, a PMII wasn't much more than that. and if the edges of the lense went out of focus when you turned the power up and down, you didn't have it focused right or had the wrong eye relief, i take it the scope wasn't mounted? the S&B glass will walk rings round the Leupy stuff.

Jon B, why don't you tell us the story about bieng able to see the deer in your bino's (and remember we tested your bino's against mine in Scotland and mine, having a bigger lense where brighter) but couldn't see em in the NXS, oh well taffy boy, guess what, i can see the deer better in my PMII then i can in my Steiners, oh dear, no dear, i mean deer.. ha ha.. told you you'd get it for that one..

And tell the guys the comment you heared about the head spaceing on the Rem 700's,

Jody, i can't bloody remember, could have been a S&W 41? not sure, to remove the slide you had to insert a small tool and this pushed the return spring rod back, then you could remove a small block that fitted in the slide which enabled you to field strip the piece., it was a customer pistol, not mine, once i'd sorted it out it functioned flawlessly, shot damn well to.

Joe. jeeps a 95, and its going, sod it, i'm gonna make Uncle George turn in his grave and buy a Jap.

Light rifles v heavey. I once took a Rem sendero to Scotland, i carried it for 3/4 of a day or so, before i got sick of it, out came the mountain rifle again. We used to carry all sorts of shit when i was in green kit, standard weight was 35lbs, + weapon+ helmet+flack vest+ extra ammo+either a 66(or 2) or a Law 90 + M/Gun ammo. + a 51mm mortar bomb or two, + a bumper pack of Mars Bars. and then came most of my basic armourers tool kit.And them some one had the radio and spare batterise where dished out between every one else.

Do you Americans have to do fitness tests carrying the kit, i guess so,carrying basic fighting order, ie 35lbs, your issued weapon and wearing helmet we had to cover 2 miles in 18 mins,(usualy did it in 16 mins) or a 3 miler where you had 33 mins ( i did it regularly in 26 mins), or an 8 miler in 1hr 50 ( we did it in 1hr 30 mins).

a lot of stuff carried on tests and exercises would have been binned(and was) in favor of food water and ammo in real ops. In NI you had to add the electronic counter measures kit, but of of course no mortars and anti tank stuff to carry. Paras and Marines advanced to contact in the Falklands carrying well over thier own body weight in kit. of course in a bug out, most of it would be disgarded, and before going into an attack, all the extra kit would be cached in a final RV.

Righ guys, last day of hunting season, its been snowing all day, so I'm off to go stalking Mr Pig.


Peter Lincoln <>
D - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 18:18:36 (ZULU)

One word... "Rock".


  I won't have the info you are looking for but please send your scenario- I need fresh ones. Getting lazy with what I have.


Looking at an AR10 at the show this weekend. Could you recomend a good simplified ranging reticle for quick COM shots  (MOUT application) ???  :) I thought you could...



Bill Moore <>
Goodview, VA, USA USA USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 18:31:07 (ZULU)


I agree with you on the match situation.

However, I think this thread has more to do with Field operations. Both sides have good points in supporting there views...

Basically it will come down to cost. Will the Military spend money to replace weapons that have proven themselves in the field for many years.

As you stated  earlier. Adapt and Overcome. YOUNG Soldiers can take the abuse. Then drink all night and do it again the next day. The beauty of being young. In my opinion the military will not justify the cost. Soldiers that cant take it will fail out in school.

For most of the people on this site. The view is different. We are not young. No way we could take that abuse again and weight matters. We do not have the responsibility that the OPERATORS have. We can argue all day and not get anywere, because it comes down to personal preference.

Thats the reason that guys like Jerry Rice and George Gardner are in business. Because guys like us like to adapt the norm to our personal preferences.

I will duck under my desk now to avoid the NEWSPAPER.




bryan <>
CA, - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 18:34:36 (ZULU)


 Count me in on the scenario deal.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 18:44:22 (ZULU)

Joe M.  and  others

Didn't want to start a pie fight with my post about loads.  Because of limited time I probably didn't make my point very well ,and certainly not completely. I think you took my poor attempt at communicating a point the wrong way, but you supported part of my point in your last post.

Let me try to explain.

There have been many posts in the  last few days regarding the soldiers load where, if the weights referenced are normal and universal, depending on the weight of the soldier, the load could be 70%, 80% ,90% ,100% or even more of the soldiers body weight. These loads are being carried considerable distances.  Now, going back to John Markwells comment about fatigue as it relates to mental and physical acuity, I'm drawn to question how effective a soldier can be while carrying the loads that have been described, or even shortly after dumping a portion of the load.  Afterall, simply walking is problematic.  I believe his combat effectivness has been compromised. Your question concerning mission statements and the theme from mission impossible makes me think that you to have also questioned whether these loads are reasonable or appropriate.  The military historians in the group can probably come up with numerous examples where a smaller force with inferior equipment and supplies has kicked butt!  Since it has some contemporary meaning to the discussion look at the Russian- Afgan tiff of a decade ago.  After what, 10 ,12, 15 years of effort the Russians went home beaten.  

The larger issue that I wanted to raise in the other post was whether there is something in the cultural, sociological, or political make-up of the US population and by extension the armed forces leadership, that drives up the amount of equipment(weight)that our soldiers carry.  Redundancy/ contingency planning is great, but only up to the point that it impairs a soldiers ability to complete a mission.   I think we can all agree that as a "culture" Americans are freaks for gadgets, equipment, technology, cool toys and tools etc.  We are also freaks for instant gratification-- we tend not to be well disposed ,as a culture, to taking the longterm view when assessing problems, issues, conditions.  HERE'S THE QUESTION:  Do these traits adversely effect the way we fight?  Is it possible that "less is more" ?

Why were the Afgans successful?  Are there lessons that we can draw from this and similar wars/battles regarding the reliance on equipment/technology?

How many of us trust batteries?


Rod Hansen <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 18:59:22 (ZULU)

18 months of my time in Berlin Brigade I was on a M60 crew.  I spent most of my time as the AG, and my normal ruck weighed in between 125 to 150 lbs.  Throw the BS flag if ya like,, but I've got pics ;))  When we trianed, as guys got killed off the living assimilated the important equipment.  It wasn't uncommon for the gunner to carry the AG gear, 1K limked 308, a Dragon sight (day or night) plus the TA1 and a spool, plus his ruck.  

After about 12 hours of this I don't see how anyone, in any physical condition, could fundction with a level of alertness that would be conducive to victory.  To top it off, the command philosophy was to keep the ruck ON during contact when we were moving.  Now how damn impossible is it to fight when you can not only NOT pick your head up because the POS Kevlar is being pushed down by the ruck frame mashing the FLAK vest againt you head, but you're too heavy to get up off the ground with out a tree to brace of the buttstock to push off of.  I hope things have improved...

Weight has gotten insain.  Our motto ended up being "Too light to fight, Too heavy to run!"

Seems fitting.  Now,, add the additional stess of being out front,, I don't see how our guys do it....


Chris <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 20:04:26 (ZULU)

Rod; good point on batteries. I don't even trust em in a lazer rangfinder if that's all I had.

I hope I'm with you but if you train a soldier top notch physically and then make him inferior by overloading his ruck that could be a problem. I was afraid of that in Afganistan. Those mountain people are rugged and their horses and donkeys can outdo any man at that altitude. Unless your technology makes up for it you got troubles. I noticed we had a few 4 wheelers there. Hummers are way too wide for that place (and most others in mountainous terrain).  4 wheelers too are inferior on the slopes but faster than donkeys on the flat.

Mr. Moore; yes close, yes fast,  Darn there you go. What was the name of that Scope? Being etched on the glass sure makes it handy up close too.

Brogers <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 20:11:59 (ZULU)


I don't think this is a pie fight.  This is a good thread.  


Is the applicability of this important in the field?  Absolutely and lots of folks feel that way (myself included)and that is where the majority of the discussion is centered.

Is this important when moving from point to point in a competition?  Yes, but no one will die as a result.

Vastly different scenarios.

I was looking at this from an angle that I vaguely know and understand.  Since I have not been deployed in the desert/jungle/street (not to forget our LE friends)in harm's way where lives are on the line then I can't really say much there.

PJC <>
Upstate, SC, US of A - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 20:12:42 (ZULU)

Reading about the weight load - I ended my mandatory service as sergeant. This means nothing a mandatory sarges here arent learned the things which are needed for keeping the crew alive, which sucks. I m only 5 feet 3 inch tall and in my army time was about 120 lbs. We were supposed to carry 80 lbs, rifle and helmet and I had problemes, not due to unsuficcient fittnes, but due to unfitting equipment. We had terrible rucks, with stupid gear. It axed the movement and took the endurance off. I was built as power lifter or something and been able to make bench press 260 lbs and kneebend 300 lbs, but still been unable to drag this shit somehow long.Unfitting, non-adjustable gear can kill a men in field, literally.It makes a great difference how the weight is distributed. I once took a 220 pound men on shoulders as a medics do and walked, there were several bets how far I can go with such load I ended it after half mile with a 100 yard run. That was a time I wanted be really strong- I was stupid as any youngster can be.I m out of the army now, doing a half-desk job, out of the ship for the rest of my life (never say never), if something happen and the reserves must go to the army I have only two possibilities: 1) I will die on the illnes which is called "command officer stupidity" and is widespread here or 2) I will die (and my chalk members) due to my own unsuficcient skills. That worries me.

J. Peter <>
Prag, Czech Republic - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 20:27:43 (ZULU)

Does anyone know where I can get a scope mount base for a Parker Hale M84.  It has the flat-top Mauser receiver already drilled and tapped.  Thanks, Skull.

Depauw, Indiana, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 20:58:13 (ZULU)

Ruck Wt Thread:

One of you mentioned that we (USA) have the technology (stuff) thus we carry it but our foe (Vietnam, A'stan) has not yet invented the stuff thus they do not have it to carry. But what about the rucks/loads of more advanced contries such as China or Russia. Did/do they have the same mind set concerning a grunts load?? If yes then it would seem to be an issue of "carry what you have", if no then it would seem to be a "cultural/ideology issue" (which is what started this thread). Can anyone comment on the ruck wts of present day China or former USSR troops??

danny mull <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 20:59:34 (ZULU)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SniperQuest 2003 up-date<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Folks if you haven't been into the Match site recently I suggest you do so!!! Check out the prize list!!! It is getting VERY impressive and more is being added almost daily!

Keep checking there for more up-dates as we go!


Sarge <>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 21:43:40 (ZULU)

Rifle weight- I've always liked heavier, allegedly more accurate rifles myself.  Couple of years ago I built a scout rifle (7X57 on '98 action) and decided Jeff Cooper was a fu****g genius.  Makes you realize why the '94 Winchester still sells so well.  

The FBI field office SWAT teams (not the Quantico based HRT) use(d) hunting grade rifles with bedding, adjusted triggers and floated barrels.  The explanation I was given is that the guys in the field offices didn't have the specialized training to properly clean an actual sniper rifle.  BS alarm go off yet kiddies????????????  For once, I was being politically aware and kept my mouth shut, but ya kinda have to wonder.  On the other hand, maybe my source didn't know squat.

Kevlar/body armor-wear the stuff on a daily basis.  It's great in the winter, keeps you nice and cozy.  Awful in the summer and greatly reduces body flexibility.  Also, since flak jackets & concealed armor only protect against fragments, pistol/subgun ammo and spall products, pitching it if up against a largely rifle armed enemy seems a reasonable option.  Military usage is based on old model of 85% or so of all casualties being due to artillery (I think).  Wonder if anyone has done an update of the same study for the battlefield of today?

WR Moore <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 22:09:59 (ZULU)


Guys, I have owned a Robar SR60D, an AWC w/ 20", Several Varmints/Senderos w/ 26" inchers, a green gun PSS 24 incher, an AI w/ a 20", an LTR and a custom USMC 700 w/ a 22". My city stick is a varmint w/ a HEAVY HART 22".

Every one was/is a 1/2 - 3/4 minute gun. Great rifles and I sure felt like I was somebody when I was shootin' 'em. However ...

My last callout was at night at THIRTY FIVE YARDS !!!

My AR was at Rock River getting a trigger tune up and the Entry boys had the Benellis.

Even cranked down to 3.5, I was too close with no night vision and no field of view.

Basically, I was useless armed with a HB bolt gun. If the guy would have broken and run out of the house, I would have had to pistolize him, swing the bolt gun like a bat or the entry boys would have had to take him. (They did by the way; Can you say JewJetSue? I knew you could).

For a loooong time now I have contemplated a Model 7 or facscimile with a forward mounted rail that Marty doesn't know he's gonna make up for me yet, AO open sights for backup and maybe an Aimpoint or 1-3X Scout scope mounted out front ?????? The Aimpoint would allow decent enough nighttime shooting out to 100 I would think. Light, fast, handy as a hatchet in a car, stainless steel and easy to swim for waterborne ops.

For a one or two shot gig it should work fine. Who shoots five shot cloverleafs in a fight anyway?

My partner and I have been brainstormin' exactly how to set the little thing up for a while now. Sure been itching to do it.

Can anybody tell me why I shouldn't ?

Just thinkin' out loud fellas.


brian k. sain <>
- Friday, January 31, 2003, at 22:41:44 (ZULU)

Joe M.;

  I had a pre-ban CAR 15.



  I like your idea. Is it alright to punch Susan Sarandon?


  Great post. I like to imagine a TV commercial of the same thing aired on the major network news and at prime time. The idea of a freezing Continental soldier really hits hard.


  The only thing I can think to ask is "Why isn't it already done"? Sounds like a great idea to me.

          LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, January 31, 2003, at 23:32:52 (ZULU)