June 1998

To Mario: You might want to send a letter to him, via his son (Carlos III), whose mailing address is on the main page.

To Torsten: I'm looking forward to our visit. Am I condemned to drink "warm" beer??? Argh! :-)

To TorF: Thanks for the post. Very informative.

To Tim: Glad you like your Savage. You warm my heart.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 02:59:36 (EDT) 

Like the others who posted replies to your, ummmm, dissertation (!!), I have to agree with most of what you said. The only point to which I might take exception is the comment that, if you don't feel remorse about killing your enemy, you are psychotic. I think this depends upon the circumstances of the shooting.

Unlike you, I cannot speak from personal experience on this issue. However, I have heard (third-hand) from some men who have been placed in this situation. I believe that under circumstances where one's enemy has already proven that HE is morally bankrupt, and is a danger to innocent people, failure to feel remorse over killing him does not necessarily make one psychotic.

Having said that, I doubt that this occurs often in the world of military sniping. As warriors, we kill not because our individual enemies are inherently evil (they're often not any different from us, the men trying to kill them), but because there is a (hopefully moral) national security consideration that requires it. Thus, it's probably often difficult for the individual soldier to feel totally justified in the shot. (Under different circumstances, the soldier and the man he just killed might have been friends.) However, many police and a few military snipers kill their targets to put an end to a horrible crime or string of crimes (to include war crimes), after the target has already done much harm to his fellow man, and done so without even the justification of military necessity. Men who take these shots may not necessarily feel deep remorse over killing their target(s). In fact, they may feel that they have done something morally right, and feel a sense of satisfaction at having protected further innocent life from the ravages of a TRUE psychotic. Not that it's something they find enjoyable, but at least there is little or no moral conflict over the issue.

A rather lengthy post over one small comment, but what the heck! You mentioned that precise language reflects precise thought, so I though I would point out what I saw as a small error in the precision of your language (and ergo, your thinking?).
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 05:40:44 (EDT) 

see ya
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 07:53:34 (EDT) 

Matt: Re Bedding the AR15 Receiver. The gent who commented that it will not make much difference is mostly correct. Still, if the slop bothers you, go ahead and do the job. Shooting accurately is in no little part a mind thing, and the more confidence you have in your gear, the better you generally shoot. That does not mean creative gizmologiy will improve accuracy via ZEN. It just means that if you "improve" your rig in one way or another, you generally try harder to shoot to its potential. A friend has an extremely accurate rifle but does not shoot it well because he DOES NOT BELIEVE it to be accurate. My groups with his rifle are half the size of his, simply, I believe, because he doesn't have faith in his equipment. So, the moral is, if it makes you feel better, bed the receivers. It doesn't hurt anything and costs next to nothing. You can do it yourself with care, in about an hour. Keep the bedding compound limited to the upper receiver only. That way you can use the lower for several rifle variations in the future. The Tensioning pin is a hassle and expensive. I still use the small red rubber insert you can buy for $5. The slop never bothered me, but having it dampened just gives a more solid feel during a match. It may not increase accuracy, but it certainly feels better.

Helping out Carlos: You have two options. You can send a check directly to his family via his son. Email me for the address, or you can still send a check to the "Carlos Hathcock Charity Fund" which I have kept open for that purpose. Either way is fine. Direct to the family is better. All donation are greatly appreciated. Carlos’ health is not promising and I believe the bills are medical substantial.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 10:05:03 (EDT) 

I was the OIC of Scout Sniper School in 1970-71 at WTBN,ITS,CAMPEN.Ca. We did a lot of training in those days and were a facilitator for law enforcement agencies in the western United States during the seventies. I'm curently in the law enforcement business and Training continues. Keep up the desemination of information. "Semper Fi"
Cloyce Kelly (USMC,CAPT.67-80) <pirate714@hotmail.com>
San Juan Capistrano,, Ca.92675 USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 12:52:53 (EDT) 

Thanks to Russell, Matt, & Scott for their replies to my posts. Rigorous and collegial discussion without rancor are the marks of intellectual and emotional maturity. I strongly doubt that this discussion could have been carried on anywhere else on the net. My respects to snipercountry.com and its members for allowing me to present my views and respond with thoughtful comments. Intelligent men can disagree, and discussion assists in the refinement of ideas. Ideas do have consequences and in the matter of sniping, ideas have final consequences.

I'll drop the topic unless anyone else has additional thoughts on the matter. Living and working in the generally "progressive" (read colloquially as "liberal") environment of academia, these sorts of discussions are just not possible at a rational level. My colleagues, while some of the most decent and kind people I have ever known, have no frame of reference for this sort of thing.

One last comment. It has been my experience that as products of the post-industrial age, we, as human beings, can become so involved in the quantitative technical performance aspects of our interests and passions that we can lose sight of the qualitative issues which will ultimately define our humanity.

Matt, your remarks about "circumstances" which I shall refer to as contextualization were dead on. If I might make an analogy. Most of the courses I teach at the American Shooting Academy involve tactical handgun employment. The market is largest there. I typically ask a new group of students how many of them have experience with handguns. Myself and my staff will raise our hands. I then point out that we are probably the most dangerous people there. Precisely because of our experience, we can lose sight of basic safety fundamentals at times because we are so used to handling weapons. Thus, we need constant reminding. I'm not sure if the analogy is clear about keeping the moral distinctions uppermost in our thoughts while we practice and refine our deadly art. Scott said it best. It really comes down to the pure enjoyment of shooting accurate rifles and constantly testing our limits. And as this site has proven, it brings us into contact with a group of exceptional men that share like interests. Thanks again gentlemen.

James R. Jarrett
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 12:59:10 (EDT) 

Anyway, I know from personal experience how wonderful it is to have such a medium as the Duty Roster available, permitting us to discuss that which cannot be discussed anywhere else. Indeed, that "sniper morality" has been handled in such a mature, intelligent, thought-provoking manner, is a fine tribute to the work of the entire Sniper Country Council and especially to you, our visitors, who have helped make this website the best of its kind.

I realize, often, how much I missed the Duty Roster when it was inoperable for so long. I'm glad we've got it. Thank you, Marius and Jay, for making it a reality once again.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 14:19:40 (EDT) 

James - We must know each other, too many crossed pathes not to have bumped into each other. Interesting post on the moral and ethical of sniping. Glad you agreed with the circumstances part of remorse. While I have had some retrospective "problems" with some missions, I have felt nothing but satisfaction with others. Again, depended upon mission and target.

One of the selection problems I have not seen discussed on this page is the problem of "no shoot" and "one shot" snipers. This is remorse and/or anticipated remorse taken to the extreme. Right now we estimate 20% to 30% of trained snipers fall in this catagory. We have not been able to find a discriminator to eliminate these individuals prior to actual mission time. All we can do is warn and emphasis that this is natural and is not a reflection on the man. Any thoughts out there on the subject?

Sorry if my sentence structure and grammer are not precise, I flunked out of college due to failing English 101 three times. Saved me from being an ociffer though since I was attending the Citadel at the time. Made a decent NCO though!

James, give me an EMail and we'll see where our paths crossed! Presently I'm a civilian instructor with SOTIC at Ft. Bragg SWC.

Rick Boucher

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 22:58:17 (EDT) 

For the record, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have standardized on the Model 70 for probably the last 30 years. The acceptance standard is a 2" group at 100yds. (They have two impressive indoor 100yd rifle ranges at the Depot in Regina). The standard factory rifle is issued to a detachment with a 4X Weaver scope. The 'Gravel Road Cops' mostly use them to humanely destroy wounded livestock and wildlife. Their other purpose is to contain a scene until the ERT can be called, drive in and deploy.

The ERT rifles are the same Model 70's, built on actions returned to the Depot Armourers for rebuild. The parts are stripped and then a 1/2" to 1" grouping rifle is made using an inspected action, a McMillan barrel and McMillan stock. The scope is the neato Leopold.

The latest word is .300 Win Mags Model 70's for the ERT to shoot longer and harder. If only they would go practice with their toys more often ...

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 23:24:35 (EDT) 

Way to go with the 100 yard handgun shots! I used a 4" Smith 686 with open iron sights and a load of 2.5 grains of Bullseye behind an H&G 51 160 grain SWC to positively deadline squirrels at 125 meters on a regular basis. Once it's sighted-in, the rest is a piece of cake. I must caution you though, this load is definitely not Nauga-capable. Shooting from the Range Control yard onto the M203 grenade launcher range, I could almost always hit cars (intentionally placed on the range, Bill) with a 6" Anaconda and open iron sights at a measured 400 meters. 3D personnel silhouettes were not safe at about 300 (yep, balloon tested!). This type of shooting is so challenging because of the short sight radius of most handguns. THERE. I SAID IT. I'm out of the closet, man, and it feels good!
 
 

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 00:02:39 (EDT) 

To Rick: Please pick up a copy of On Killing and start reading it. Your problem with snipers not shooting, or only shooting once, is part of a bigger problem that LTC Grossman talks about in his book. I RECOMMEND EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO VISITS THIS WEBSITE PICK UP A COPY OF THIS BOOK -- AND READ IT -- BECAUSE IT DISCUSSES A MAJOR PROBLEM AT THE HEART OF COMBAT ARMS TRAINING!!! It is especially important to snipers! Even if you disagree with some facets of Grossman's work, you cannot deny the validity of his studies and research. Again, Rick, you should get this book. Perhaps, you should include some chapters of it in your coursework at SOTIC.

To Paul: Welcome to the free world, pal. Glad to have you out of the closet. I've been a handgunner for many years. After this month's annual training in Germany, I'm thinking of buying a Redhawk in .45 Colt (close-range bear and hog medicine, you know). I had been waiting "forever" for this gun to be available in this chambering, and it's finally happened. I figure I can come very close to Casull velocities with 300-grain bullets. Makes me sick, though, to financially support that @#%!#^ Bill Ruger, but this gun is the only thing on the market that will fit my needs.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 01:08:11 (EDT) 

To Nathan: Nice words, thank you. Speaking of women, on page 11 of the June, 1998, issue of Tactical Shooter, I see there's a picture of "Officer Anita Dickason, Tac Unit sniper" -- apparently of the Dallas P.D. If someone knows her, I'd like to interview her for a piece here on Sniper Country.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 04:05:15 (EDT) 

He replied: "What's the point with football?"

(Football/soccer in Europe is a warzone)
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 04:14:02 (EDT) 

I hope this has been of some help to you, Torsten, in understanding the development of one of today's most legendary and fearsome animals.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 05:24:15 (EDT) 

We have laws pending that do not allow a German soldier to go of base with his camo BDU´s because he could possibly frighten any forigners asking for assylum.

Our gun laws are being thightend up every election period and with europe growing together it looks as if the most restricting laws of each country will be pooled to come up with what could be a weapons free society.
In the past I have always stated that if the **** hits the fan I would move back to Florida were I spend four years in the late 70´s, with all what is happening in the US now I am not so sure anymore.
Also I am scared of the day when your INS will ad another question to their visa form asking any tourist or buisnessman in question (including NATO partners) if they own any firearms !!

With our new G-22 Sniper rifles we have also new contents in the sniper classes. Included is a 8 hour block specially commited toward the shooting and possible trauma thereafter of a human.
It may be the enemy at a time, but in political landscapes these things change fast, as I now have a fromer East German Sniper in my reserve outfit. A few years ago we would have killed each other and now I am invited to his son´s second birthday.

I respect all honest pacifists in this world, but unless we want to sacrifice many we will always need laws by which to live and also people that are willing to enforce them (sometimes violently) to stop the few from harming our society.

I hope I will never have to go through what my father has experienced.

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 05:30:36 (EDT) 

A few years back and close to the Kennedy Space Center Nature Reserve I trapped a baby Nauga in a Garbage dumpster. At the time I didnt know what it was and I left it to the owner of the establishment were I trapped it.

Thanks to you Russ and the latest Issue of National Geographic I now know that it must have been a Nauga Dunkinus horribilis Donatus for it sported a fine hide in a gleaming shade of neon pink.

I´ll try to get a permit to trap these beautiful creatures as I belive that shooting them is a waste of the good hide and unsporting alike.

Would a overseas container or a underground parking lot make a good trap? Can they be baited with a school bus ?

I found that a F-4 Phantom makes a very good Nauga call to wich the Nauga bull stands to in the middle of mating season.

Horrido !
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 07:06:32 (EDT) 

If Nauga once ruled the sea I suspect that there would be no chance act that could remove them. It is only of recent that the nuclear attack subs produced a rival of such a creature.

Past this I believe that we owe God the honor of creating a creature that so implies man's inferior design as to assure him that his maker is the only reason that he has been elevated above the Nauga. After all if it weren't for his hand upon us, it is obvious that the Nauga would have hunted us to extinction long before the advent of the LAWs rocket ( which in my opinion is the only hand held implement equal to the task of defending against such a prey.)
 

Tom Scott <tom.scott@lmco.com>
here, and gone USA forever - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 08:27:04 (EDT) 

So, to stay topical and keep long range shooting in mind. Naugas can be taken with a minimum of .300 WM but .338 WM is better. Not that I would ever shoot an endangered species mind you. I was once caught shooting a Bald Eagle. I really needed the meat to feed my family. (I spend all of my money on guns so I cannot afford to feed my children.) I explained this to the judge. It turned out that he was a serious shooter also and understood my problem. So he took pity on me and let me slide. The Judge was quite curious about what Bald Eagle tasted like, I said, "Oh, about like spotted owl."

Russ, I love my Savages, but this new Winchester Model 70 is really nice too. All kidding about Naugas aside, I am interested to find out what some of the "real" snipers think about the BOSS system. It seems to work well, but the blast signature/concussion is tremendous. Is the general thinking that muzzle brakes are useful? Are there better brakes than the BOSS? Should a brake be used at all in a tactical environment? The difference in recoil between my Savage 110fp in .300 wm and the Model 70 in the same caliber is very pronounced. The M-70 is more pleasant to shoot, but really kicks up the dust.

Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

Cory
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 12:22:21 (EDT) 

On handguns: Long range shots with a handgun are a difficult challenge, but it's pretty amazing what a skilled user can accomplish. Where have we heard that before? :)

Russell: I suggest adding your comments about the book sales helping to fund thise site to the Sniper Country Bookstore page. It might help to encourage purchases.
Another suggestion, or as we say in the software business, "a feature request": I can see from the other posts that I'm not the only person to review this site frequently, hungrily looking for new information. I'd really like to see a "what's new?" page if you guys could manage it. That way I could check in there and see what's new rather than having to check the articles, reviews, tools of the trade, book reviews, etc. top to bottom constantly to see if another article has snuck in.

To all: I have seen more articles and techniques on how to clean a sniper rifle than I can count, too many really. But I have seen very few articles on rifle storage. How do you store your rifle?
I'd like to differentiate between "live" and "dead" storage, the latter being long-term while the former is done with the idea of keepimg the rifle available for immediate (or close to immediate) use.
Most of my rifles have been treated with a variety of chemicals to keep them lubed properly and to prevent rust, which is a real issue around here. As far as rust-prevention goes, most are treated with with the Tetra products, and after each cleaning given a very light film of Break Free. The drawback is that BF smells, although this seems to decrease over time. The bores are usually protected by running a patch with Rem Oil through them. Prior to use, the bores are then cleaned with a dry patch and the outside metal surfaces given a quick wipe-down with a dry cloth. All are stored in a safe with a "goldenrod" dehumidifier.
I would be interested to hear how other folks store their precision rifles, especially those that have to be stored in such a way that they're immediately available for call-outs, commie nagua charges, or what have you.

DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 12:51:33 (EDT) 

To Russell Taylor: If I do move back to IL it will be in the western suburbs of Chicago.How far are these 600 yard and 1000 yard ranges that you mentioned from the Chicago area?Russ,why not just get a .44Mag made by Colt or S&W instead of sending your money to Ruger for one of his .45 Colts?
Kodiak
USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 13:08:26 (EDT) 

On to more serious subjects: I have not yet read On Killing, but from the few classes I have taken at SMTC, I believe it would be a worthy addition to any library belonging to one who considers a career in Law Enforcement or the Military. Our instructor quoted one telling study: In any fire fight (Civil War to present), only something like 10% of the platoon/cadre/squad, whatever, would actually be fighting. The rest would be hugging ground, crying for mama, or just shooting blindly at nothing. Only a small portion of men were actually engaging the enemy with cold precision. The telling part of this factoid is that you may not have the SAME men fighting each time. It all depended on the mind set of the individual on the given day of the action. The man who fought hard during the last engagement might be digging in under the log this time round. This too must apply to duty slotted snipers at some point in their career, as several stories were related about how some of the police snipers, when given the green light, refused to shoot. Their reluctance to kill overcame their desire to end a bad situation where other lives were at stake. You simply NEVER know, when you get up, if you are up to it that day. This is why training and repetition is so important. It does not necessarily anesthetize you to what you have to do to get the job done, but in the heat of the situation, the training takes over and you just do it…Hopefully.

Rick’s comment about 20% to 30% of the trained snipers falling into the "no shoot" category is not surprising and frankly, having no experience in psychology, I wouldn’t have a clue as to how you could test for this. The one downside of training is that it is not REAL. I can not tell you how many fake fire fights we got in during training when I was an infantry troop in the 29th div. (light) MD Army National Guard. The troops for the most part showed insane bravery in the face of BLANKS and for the most part did all the right things to win the day in any FTX. But it was never real. Each of us, individually, at one time or another probably thought we were the most gung ho troops in the field. We LOVED this shit. But to a man, we’d never been shot at for real. Till that happens, you never know just how you will react, and while training is a piss poor second to actual combat for learning how you will react, it is the only game in town. You really do train how you fight and fight how you train. The SMTC instructors emphasized one thing over and over again: Mindset, Mindset, Mindset.

Police seem - and again, I have no experience here - to have a more vested interest in taking the shot. It comes back to the circumstance issue. It is not hard to WANT to drop the bastard who just killed in cold blood the 83 year old school teacher over a parking space, and then went on a shooting spree just for shits and grins. Hell, you’d think the tactical shooters would be falling all over themselves to drop this guy! Still, at times, some just can not do it. Training or no, it might remove some of their humanity and they balk. Look too at the military sniper. Trained, focused, the best shooter the unit has to offer. A technician and a tactical pro. Can he pop the mortar team who is bringing hell and damnation onto his buddies in the field. Without remorse and probably with no little amount of pleasure! Is he so willing to drop an armed individual walking across an open field who appears to immediately threaten no one, save in some abstract "future" manner? Maybe. It must all come back to his training and self prepared mindset.

I guess the point of all this rambling is to emphasis to those of you who have been chosen for this field of endeavor, GET THE TRAINING and PRACTICE as much as you physically can. When the chips are down, it is probably all you have to fall back on. Sermon over. Lets go plinking….

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 13:43:02 (EDT) 

Hoo YA!
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 15:05:03 (EDT) 

To Cory: Tastes like Spotted Owl???!!! Hahahahahahahahaha!!! Personally, Cory, for TRULY long-range Nauga hunting, I recommend a bench-mounted .50 BMG with a 45-inch heavy-contour McMillan barrel -- one with a fast twist for using 850-grain DU-core rounds. Use a massive dose of Hodgdon H50BMG and, of course, magnum primers!!! I think the top-end 56mm NightForce model would be the right choice for a scope. I recommend target acquisition via some quality ITT nightvision devices. Why, I remember the time I was Nauga hunting in northcentral Nevada, and... well, um, perhaps I shouldn't admit to anything here on the Internet. I don't think the statute of limitations has run out yet. Suffice it to say, that was a GOOD day of Nauga hunting!

On recoil, Cory, I just don't know how much it's necessary to have a braking device in the field. Shots are usually low in number in a sniping environment. I've capped off a few of my .416 Remington Magnums without a padded shoulder (the gun has no brake) and I assure you, "in the heat of battle," I'd have never noticed it. Put the rifle into your shoulder like your supposed to, squeeze the trigger, and God will take care of the rest.

To Dave: Regarding your long-range handgunning comment, it's familiar, but I can't quite place it. Who originated the quote?

For gun safe storage, I use a dehumidifying rod like you do. Nothing with Teflon goes in my bores, but anything that will "protect" may go on the outside of the firearm. About a third of my rifles are phosphated, but all receive equal attention toward rust prevention. In "short-term" storage, I think you have the right idea. I would suggest garbage bags (inside hard guncases) that have desiccants inside. Rifle in bag, bag in case. Open case, pull off bag, you're good to go. Bianchi also sells a bag for such a purpose that you might want to look into. I just don't know if they have any wide enough to accommodate a scope on a rifle.

To Kodiak: The ranges I mentioned are closer to the Mississippi River than to Chicago. I've heard too many bad things about the durability of the Anacondas (no flames, please, I research these things pretty heavily -- and I'm even a Colt man), and for the pressures I want to load to (within a .45 Colt case) the S&W line has nothing to interest me. For that matter, the .45 Colt Anaconda probably wouldn't stand up to what I want to do (with my loads). As for a .44 Magnum in either of the guns you suggested, I don't really want a .429" caliber gun, I want a .45" caliber gun (yes, I know, .451" or .452" will be the actual situation). I want BIG holes. I want POWER. The only reason I don't get a .454 Casull is because I'm a poor man.

To Scott: A Benchmade on a Nauga? "Mano-a-Naugao?" Scott... YOU DA' MAN, SCOTT, YOU DA' MAN!

Also, Scott, for someone who never read On Killing, you sure SEEM to have read it! Many of your comments were dead-on! I'm SO serious about this book, I want Jay to put it at the top of our Amazon book list. When I'm done (I'm a slow reader, so no one hold their breath, okay?), I'll do a review. Honestly, this "why can't Johnny kill?" problem is more serious than you'd ever suspect. Grossman, S.L.A. Marshall, Picq, and several others have done a lot of work in this area and it should NOT be ignored. Look, it's like this: People don't want to talk about killing. That's why WE'RE here. That's why we can't talk "comfortably" to our coworkers, friends, and even relatives. They all think we're wackos. You know it, I know it. So, is it any surprise that the same human beings who won't talk about "how to kill" are the same people in the military and law enforcement communities who have a problem teaching "how to kill?" Scott, if you read the book ("when"... hint, hint), you'll see how correct your comments really were.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 15:48:22 (EDT) 

sorry, the world is not that small. But I'm sure I would have enjoyed it and I am looking forward to it any time in the future.
Do you visit the SHOT SHOW by chance ?

Pistol Sniping !
I dont remember the details but was´nt there a guy in a tank that dropped enemys with a .45colt at pretty respectable ranges ??

I attended the Bisley shoot in 89´ and competed agains some very fine men on a 300 Meter FN High Power shoot. Stock gun out of a foxhole and on a sand bag. I got close enough to have them take their heads down, but the guy next to me hit the 1 Meter Target every time.
We have played extensively with a P-08 Artillery Modell and it will hit a siluette target at 300 Meters any time of the day.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 16:19:29 (EDT) 

I really liked the Nauga Saki bit...very very funny!

Somebody talk a little about loads and bullets for the .300wm. best powder& cases? Best Bullet? Does PRL make a bullet for .300WM ?

On Killing...Rightous men will defend themselves and their way of life. They know in their hearts that they must do the hard thing to preserve life and liberty. Nobody wants to kill. And I don't think there is any shame in discovering that you cannot kill. It is my small opinion that a highly moral man, a man of good values and character will kill because he knows that to fail in that task will doom himself and his way of life to tyranny (sp?) There cannot be any joy in killing, just the knowledge that he has done his part to defend what he truly belives in. With your shield or on it gentlemen.
 

Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 17:08:34 (EDT) 

Just had a look at a well used Model 700 in .243 caliber. Guess what,.... one locking lug has never touch its abutment and the other one touches only by a very fine line right near the root of the lug. Discouraging isn't it. BTW, AR-15s don't seem to have this type of problem. All pertinent lugs bear.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 02, 1998 at 18:38:11 (EDT) 

The Mayflower spottingscope you are looking for is made by Swarovski, www.swarovskioptik.com (birding)

To webmaster:

Put these links on the linkspage:

Blaser tactical/sniper rifle: http://home.t-online.de/home/blaser.jagdwaffen

www.heckler-koch.de

www.sig.ch (better than US site, inkluding Sauer 200/3000 sniper rifle, SIG SG 550 autosniper and assaultrifles)

www.swarovskioptik.com

www.hensoldt-zeissgruppe.de (NEW Zeiss riflescopes!!)

www.army-technology.com ( All from Win. SLAP ammo, tankammo and attack helos. You got to see it to believe it!)

All sites have english tekst except SIG but you'll get the picture!.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 04:37:36 (EDT) 

I found some traktion aides made for the british Raiders in WWII. They are a simple thick net the size of a shoebox with about 1" squares and a cord running around the outside. I bought some pairs and we have copied them often. It is easy to attach burlap or natural vegetaion to or under it and you can tie them onto your favorate footware without the tar and feather routine.
They leave a irregular pattern on the ground and are exellent when going through water with slippery stones.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 06:25:59 (EDT) 

Anyway Steve, you are correct. If the trainee does not understand the training, he could easily allow his muscle memory to overcome common sense and do the most harmful things to his well being.

A short story to illustrate just how some mistakes can be made. This was related to me by a firearms instructor with time in D.C. A Police officer gets caught in gun fight. After he runs dry, he very carefully looks down, removes his empty cases from the revolver and puts them in his pocket, AS HE HAS DONE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS in practice. Bad guy, seeing this take place, walks out into the open, puts his gun to the cops head and executes him. Moral? Do not confuse practice with training. They are not always the same. Range practice is just that: how to shoot at the range. Training is something different, I hope, and involves massive dosses of stress, relistic scenarios, field excercises, more stress, proper malfunctions techniques UNDER STRESS, and, well, more stress! That kind of training bulsters the trainee with the skills and mind set required to survive a fight. Sadly, I have seen some police walk away from an IDPA type match shaken and disatisfied with their performance because they never recevied that kind of training, having only been "trained" via "range practice". Something to think about if you want to be a law enforcement officer - never accept the yearly qualification as sufficient for maintaining your skill level. I am beginning to believe that the IDPA matches are THE way to go for an officer who can not get realistic extra-curricular training, but is willing to learn. Short of formal training, each match will task him and force him to learn skills and technique that can save his life.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 08:27:49 (EDT) 

Sorry about the "please"-thing. It does not exist natural in scandinavian language and are usually forgotten when speaking english. My englishteacher would kill me...
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 10:21:22 (EDT) 

Seriously, what could you write about that would interest us on this site? For that matter... the REST of you, who have varied backgrounds and tons of experience, should be writing articles for us to post here on Sniper Country. After all, "ask NOT what your Sniper Country can do for you, ask what YOU can do for your Sniper Country!" (There's some irony in the whole nature of this paraphrased quote, don't you think?)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 10:30:11 (EDT) 

"Hello,
Me and my buddy want to become snipers for US ARMY RANGERS, or some kind of
military service. But we're still young and thinking about this all. Just he
really wants to become a sniper, while i want to be some kind of point man
(All special force tasks). But If i become his partner in sniping. I have a
lot of a less chance of getting killed. That is why I would like to become a
sniper and be 2nd man to him. I would be his point man, i think, that's what
it's called. But, could you give me more information, how it all works. With
the jobs there are, I would want to be part of a special force team, but just
I wouldn't mind not getting into too many hostile enviornments. So, if i were
to be his 2nd man, would i get no credit at all, when we do honorble things.
And what would be my jobs if i were his 2nd hand man. And what is the name
for that anyway? Well thanks if you answer.

Dan"

I gave no response. I wish kids would stay off this site. I also wish kids would realize that life is precious and comes only once, as a gift from God. I'd sure like to get mail from young men asking about shooting scholarships at various universities instead of how to wage war and "get credit for kills."

Condor <Condor@snipercountry.com>
Far, Far Away USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 12:22:37 (EDT) 

In any case there are times when someone gets in a stressful situation, and their brain starts to get a little funny. Their hands go on "autopilot" and decide that they should do something now - and that something might be putting the safety on, dropping a mag, god knows what. I've seen it happen several times. Suffice to say that proper training and mindset can help to eliminate these problems.

An interesting administrative problem is getting used to certain range commands, which is a Bad Thing. Firing commands need to vary in training so that any given signal (a whistle for example) doesn't generate an automatic response. Also commands that are standard on one firing range may mean something else entirely different on another, which I have seen lead to some *really* interesting situations.

Torsten: I think I have several of those nets you're referring to, although I was under the impression that they were designed for helmets, to stuff vegetation into. The ones I have are green nylon, although they can be sun-bleached to brown or tan. In any case I find that those nets work great over a boonie hat for part of a ghillie. They cover the whole hat and there is still enough to drape down the neck area about 8 inches.
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 12:32:36 (EDT) 

"
Dear Condor,
I am a JROTC Cadet Staff Sergeant that participates on my high schools
rifle team. We are one of the best teams in the nation, and on a good day
I usually break the 260 out of 300 on three posistion shooting and around
75-90 on offhand. I am an avid shooter as you can see. I am very
interested in entering the U.S. Army and becoming a sharpshooter. I read
one of your responses to just another "wanna-be sniper"(ther's about 400
million out there) out there thinking that sniping is just pulling the
trigger and watching the top of a guy's head blow off. When I read your
response, I was very glad that someone finally told what being a military
sniper is all about(B.S., B.S., B.S.). I think that I am ready to enter
the world of sniping when I enter the military, and hopefully my superiors
will too. But like the great Carlos Hathcock said, "The job chooses the
man, not the other way around". I was wondering, though, if you could give
me some tips on how to prepare for sniping school and how long you can hold
the posistion as a sniper in the military. I am not one of the 400 million
wanna-be's as I commented, but I do think that sniping should be a major
part of today's military and I want to be involved with it. Hopefully I
didn't just tick you off like the guy who's letter I read, but I feel that
I can adequetly serve my country in the role of a scout/sniper.

Thank you

Cadet Staff Sergeant Drew Anderson"

I gave him a nice response, and copied four of you folks (plus another person) on his message. Those of you I copied, I hope you'll give him a well-considered response. I still feel uncomfortable with kids visiting this site, but maturity has to count for something, I think. There are idiots, and then there are guys like this. I hope this young lad does well in life. After the last letter I got, this one made my day brighter.

Condor <Condor@snipercountry.com>
Far, Far Away USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 12:37:22 (EDT) 

Drag bags. Someone also wanted to know how to make a drag bag. The question is, how much work do you want to do, and how much do you want to protect the rifle? A simple BDU leg can be sewn up to make a drag bag. But it offers little protection. Padding the inside with bed roll foam where it will contact the ground is a very good idea. But frankly, for the price, you may as well buy an Eagle Indistries drag bag/shooting mat. During our stay at SMTC, this thing proved its worth daily!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 12:46:17 (EDT) 

no no these were especially made for feet not knuckleheads in a wrinkle free hat. They are made from natural fibers as they are original WW II items. SASS in the UK must have a lot of them as they are selling them for about 3 Pounds as I recall. The ones I have are only slightly larger than my footprint.

Dragbags !

I have stopped by a local junk yard and cut of a few saftey belts. they make exellent straps and can still be sewn on with the wifes sewing machine. I use a set on my Ghille as suspenders since the thing gets to heavy for the elastic type when caught in the rain.
For the padding I used an old kip mat and the hardware i picked up at the shot show as a freebee. I´ve seen Dive shops with spare clips etc.

I didnt use Velcro because of the noise it makes and you get a signature on a night vison device.
Opening a velcro covered ammo pouch looks like a minature thunderstorm when viewed through good night vision units and can be enough to compromise your otherwise perfect position.

I have added extra hooked straps to cover the fuzzy part for night op´s.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 13:03:25 (EDT) 

DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 13:43:38 (EDT) 

thank you, when i get stuck in chicagos O´haire next time i know that your only a phone call away.

Paul:

i have soaked my G-tux in ...... well we call it Essigsauretonerde. I dont have a clue what it is in english. Anyway its a stuff grandpa already used for his boyscout tent and will not increase the burn rate of the fuzzies.
in adition i treat my Ghillies with a chemical i get from a friend that makes furniture for movie centers. treated burlap will only smolder and the stuff does not seem to be washed out by rain.

Scott:

I dont use spray paints for the same reason.
 

Torsten
Germany - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 14:52:44 (EDT) 

Good luck,
Ralph
Ralph Horne <m1911@earthlink.com>
Houston, Texas USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 15:52:23 (EDT) 

Russell: I grew up in Davenport. Mom & Dad still live there and I visit them occasionally. One of these days...
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 16:38:59 (EDT) 

GySgt David D. Meyer USMC <B74_S7Z_GYSGT_MEYER_at_NMCB74@secondncb.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 22:35:30 (EDT) 

nice photos ! To bad that my buddy and myself could not be there, we would have brought a little more variation into the Woodland and Tiger stripes Camo with our Flecktarn Bdu´s.

Gunny DD Meyer,

was heißt hier "Toten Jäger" ?
if its already dead it does´nt need hunt´in.
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Jägerfeldwebel, Germany - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 02:31:59 (EDT) 

To Torsten: My deepest sympathies to you and your countrymen, concerning the train wreck. Seriously. Very sad.

On a lighter note, can I get you to take me to some German military surplus stores? Oh, and I'd love to find some extra-tall BDUs of your country's style.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 03:53:24 (EDT) 

our luck that my father in law was´nt on the train, he only travels by ICE train when on buisness trips and has been on the "R.Roentgen" ICE several times.

Give me your measurements, height , chest, inseam, waist, and I´ll have a set of NEW Mil spec. unstamped Flecktarn BDU´s waiting for you. Since they had some for me 6´2" and 48" chest, I´m sure we find some for you. Oh! head size !!!
you dont want to leave without a M-43 forage cap. These will be Bundeswehr issue and could be exchanged for new ones if you ever crawl them trough. Helmet cover? Goretex? Rucksack? we´ll see.

By the way, could you get the 10 T´s in XXL from Scott P. and bring them with you ?? I´ll pay you here in $ or we can trade part of it,which ever way it comes out.

We have a local Surplus store and several Mail-order places.
give me a call when you hit the Vaterland so I have time to set up the SIG tour.

I´ll be spending some tax money starting Sunday until Thursday. We get to throw Frags, fire AT Panzerfaust 3, and do a mild demoltion course, plus a lot of shooting and not to forget some exellent first Aid training including setting infusions, etc.

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 05:54:35 (EDT) 

translated it would be "spotted camoflage".

In the seventies the Bundeswehr went through a huge effort of photographing the countryside and possible engagement areas. They scanned the pictures into a computer and added human shapes and had the comuter come up with the new camo sceme and colors. Up close it is just a bunch of wild spots, but with increasing distance they take shape of larger areas. It is a sort of a variable camo. The main color is dark bronce green with light green, rust brown and tar black spots.
Our luck that a computer came up with the Flecktarn camo as it looks very much like the cloth worn by some elite German units in WW II. We had a big political issue over it and it was finally accepted that a computer made the right choice and not some military historian.

The new BDU´s are being issued to the KRK, Crisis Reaction Forces (IFOR,SFOR,etc.) first, so now we have a two class military some with and some without the new system. As money is alloted to it they will eventually have all troops changeds to Flecktarn.

As far as I know the Danish Military is using the same sceme,but with slightly diffrent colors.

Torsten
Germany - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 06:16:07 (EDT) 

Oh, and I'm glad your father-in-law "missed the train." I keep seeing things about the wreck on CNN and it's just very, very sad. Especially the news about the children.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 06:54:29 (EDT) 

I have I-IV and White Feather, two have Chandlers signature on the page in front of the printed signatures.
 
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 08:02:30 (EDT) 

IRON BRIGADE ARMORY
100 RADCLIFFE CIRCLE
JACKSONVILLE, N.C. 28546
910-346-1134
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
USA - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 14:11:24 (EDT) 

Torsten, Sorry to hear about the tragedy. I went to visit my brother when he was stationed in Germany (with the 101st AB). and I really enjoyed the country very much. I have to say that, as my brothers wife is German. She has to be 10 times better than most of the American women I know. She has her priorities in the right place. She works harder than most Americans I know.

Thanks Guys for the .300 WM information, as soon as I try it I will let you know how it goes. I'm shooting factory because the rifle is still in the the break in mode.
 

Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL. USA - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 14:17:59 (EDT) 

It will be used for dragging about while I am learning the art of sniping and long distance shooting. No bench work.

tom
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Here, and Back USA - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 17:10:08 (EDT) 

My plinker.308 12bvss savage with choate stock 2#(down to 2ounce) trigger, moly coated and freeze dried barrel.

It will be used for dragging about while I am learning the art of sniping and long distance shooting. No bench work.

tom
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Here, and Back USA - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 17:12:33 (EDT) 

To all, I have Reserve duty this weekend, and won't be back online until Sunday night. I'll be offline from 0700 my time, Friday morning. My home computer's in the shop (again). 
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, June 05, 1998 at 02:32:19 (EDT) 

thanks , the phone number was what I was looking for.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, June 05, 1998 at 02:41:52 (EDT) 

If you visit http://www.dejanews.com and enter a search based on the above (say, "URGENT REQUEST! Medical Support Needed" for example), you'll find some of the "public's" response from the nonshooting community. The lesson that "family takes care of family" rings clear once again. Gentleman, the bottomline is... we take care of our own.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, June 05, 1998 at 06:07:38 (EDT) 

I'm a bit behind on my reading, but I must say, it is a very neat trick that with the condoms - I will have to remember that!

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, SA - Friday, June 05, 1998 at 06:52:15 (EDT) 

thanks for the note, is it getting cold down there ?

I spend some time in Jo´burg with a buisness partner several years ago. Had a lot of fun shooting Bush pig´s and Warthog´s with a scoped Ruger Blackhawk, all over 70 Meters.

Have some friends in the Police there. Its a though job !

How´s the SADF Sniper Program doing ?
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, June 05, 1998 at 10:25:36 (EDT)

The phone number that was given out recently was a FAX number. Try the phone number below.
Ron N.

Iron Brigade Armory LTD.
LTCOL Norman A. Chandler USMC Ret.
100 Radcliffe Circle
Jacksonville, NC 28564
(910) 455-3834
Fax:(910) 346-1134
{Publisher of Death From Afar, the hidtory of U.S. Marine Corps Sniping}
[Manufacturer:Rifle,Publisher]
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Saturday, June 06, 1998 at 11:40:21 (EDT) 

I´ll try to make the best of the taxpayers money.
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, June 07, 1998 at 05:31:25 (EDT) 

p.s. This is a nice web site--I was referred to it by the Wall Street Journal--the music was a nice touch!
Ira Simpson <isimpson@students.wisc.edu>
Madison, WI USA - Sunday, June 07, 1998 at 20:43:22 (EDT) 

To Mike: If your unit was going to have to fund your participation in the competition you spoke of... then I'd have to support your CSM's decision not to send you. If something doesn't support the METL, then it's VERY hard to justify an expenditure of funds on it. These are tough times to be in the military of this country; we're not doing "more with less," we're doing "LESS with less." Money's tight. TDY, per diem, ammo, "wasted assets" (that is, you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing... you're off having fun shooting in a competition -- which possibly detracts from your unit's readiness posture, in the long run) -- it all adds up. Having had to brief "the numbers" for my company when I was a company commander (CTT, APFT, weapons qual, TCGST, MOS qual, METL, and so on), I can probably understand where your CSM was coming from. I'm sure you meant well -- and that you probably came up with ways to justify competing -- but in the long run, you're just a small part of a big plan... a plan which most times doesn't include "fun," unfortunately. Hey, look, I'd love to attend a sniper employment officer (SEO) course, but I don't see ANY way to talk my unit into sending me (I'm in a quartermaster slot at the moment), so I'm not even going to ask.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, June 08, 1998 at 04:22:49 (EDT) 

Dave: By the "Remmington 700 (.308) Heavy barrelled Tactical rifles" do you mean the PSS? I have no experience with the ITT stuff. But much with the PSS. What specifically do you want to know?

To Bryan and all the other "new guys", Welcome aboard! Feel free to lend your experience, knowledge, and ideas. We hope to keep this site a clearing house of information for those who both need to know, or just like to compile, the relevant information. Issue and opinion abound here; your input is valuable!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 08, 1998 at 09:28:50 (EDT) 

In the face of zero funding, keep trying to make competitions. Train on your own. Compete on your own if possible. Even if you can never do so officially for your unit, you and your fellow troops will benefit form what ever skill you can take to the battlefield if it ever comes to that. When the need arises for sharpshooters, at least you will be able to step up to bat. Recall that often the most skilled shooters in both world wars simply took the lead and became THE designated sharpshooters in their platoons? While modern forces generally have dedicated troops in this role today, it is still not always the case. I would be interested to hear how many expert marksman started mounting scopes on their M16A2 rifles during the Gulf War when they saw the distances required. Precision fire always has a place on the battlefield. If you are dedicated to being one who can deliver it, there is no reason you can not develop the skills when "off duty". Good luck.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 08, 1998 at 09:59:59 (EDT) 

I need this info ASAP. Let me know if you know of anything that fits the bill, especially anything online! Thanks!

On second thought, if you have info on performance vs. bodyarmor, please just e-mail me. Don't need to make it any easier for the weirdos to figure out what to load in their weapons. (I'm looking for things like, how many hits can a ceramic plate take from 5.56 before it becomes a dinner plate and shatters?)
 

Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, June 08, 1998 at 12:41:47 (EDT) 

DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, June 08, 1998 at 14:01:39 (EDT) 

Does anyone have a good phone number for GAR in Wayne, NJ? They market a jeweler's rouge (and some other good reloading stuff) that I use in my case tumbler. You mix it with paint thinner and the brass comes out as good as if you used Never Dull and an electric drill. I've tried (201)256-7641 without any luck. Thanks!
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Monday, June 08, 1998 at 17:06:22 (EDT) 

Moly is good if you use the right Moly and apply it correctly. It must be acidically neutralized and that means an oils suspension is necessary(read wet molly.

Once applied it can not build up because Moly doesn't attract moly(good for the barell, I wish that were true for all situations) only the metal. This means that barrell life will be elongated if properly applied because nothing can eat into the moly that is naturally in the barrell of a gun. And it will not wear as fast due to abbrasion since friction is reduced.

Problem though this type of Moly isn't the only one available and I have yet to here where to get the good stuff?!

Next when shooting with Moly the chamber pressure maybe reduced since friction has dropped(read you must retune your ammunition).

Now can someone explain where to get the correct moly and apply it to the barrell and the bullet. I wouldn't ask a manufacturer like NECO because I am sure theirs would always be the best.

Hopefully the data here helps others, by the way there is another lubricant that is supposedly easier to apply and works as well but I couldn't find enough data to suggest using it.

Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Back, in the USA - Monday, June 08, 1998 at 17:14:15 (EDT) 

Tom,
What you want is Dow Corning Moly-Z. Check your Yellow Pages for a "bearing" supply dealer. That's where I found it a couple of years ago. It's about $40.00 or so for 10 lifetimes supply.

There are various ways to apply moly to bullets and none have proven more effective than any of the others. Some tumble the bullets plain and some use BBs as a media. A few people us a vibrating type of device.

BTW, Berger has a website and we can order the best bullets money can buy. Get them plain or coated for a couple of bucks more per 100.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/

This way you can find out if your barrel likes it or not without spending a lot of money getting set up.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Monday, June 08, 1998 at 21:07:18 (EDT) 

Regarding my project rifle, the new reamer turned out to be of the proper specification, and I can now chamber my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum rounds. They look like "small" (?) .50 BMG rounds. Rather impressive. Sometime this week, I'll break in the barrel using the Choate sniper stock (I'm only using 117 grains of H50BMG for this work, in conjunction with uncoated 300-grain Sierra Match Kings, so "serious" load development won't begin until after I return from Germany). I'll take my chronograph to the range and see what the break-in rounds produce for velocity. In the meantime, I need to start opening up the barrel channel in the stock and begin inletting the stock to accept the receiver. It sure is impressive to watch the bolt slide home and chamber those rounds!

To Matt: Mr. Bain has mentioned a publication you might want to look into getting, called (I think) the Wound Ballistics Journal. It probably has what you want. You might begin your search for information by contacting your local medical examiner and/or county coroner.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1998 at 00:56:47 (EDT) 

I just picked up Hunter's The Second Saladin, and I'm going to get the book you mentioned, too.

I have the 112BVSS in .22-250 -- and bought the 112BVSS-S in .300 Winchester Magnum, but the latter only supplied the action for my custom .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. However, I can tell you that the Savage long-range rifles have an excellent reputation and you probably wouldn't be throwing your money away.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1998 at 05:57:56 (EDT) 

There is so much disinformation out there that I don't see anything wrong with one guy coming along and trying to set the record straight, as Marshall did with Handgun Stopping Power. Maybe he didn't do a very good job of it (first I've heard of this, but what the hell, maybe it's true), but it's a whole lot better than reading Hatcher's Notebook on the Thompson-LaGarde tests and thinking you've got it all figured out. Fact of the matter is, most of us aren't scientists or medical professionals. We do not have the resources to adequately research this subject ourselves, and in the past many of those who HAVE had the education and resources have produced flawed studies anyway!! "Read lots of sources?" Well, hell, like I said, Hatcher's Notebook says one thing, a different book says something else, and I would contend that most of us don't have the education or experience to sort them out. So what's the answer?
 

Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1998 at 06:24:35 (EDT) 

What I am looking for is moly that is high grade or a real scoop as to why I shouldn't worry about it?
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
somewhere, anywhere USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1998 at 08:40:40 (EDT) 

The moly issue is very interesting. Of late I have been hearing all sorts of comments about "high-grade" moly as opposed to regular moly. But in every article, no one could or would provide a name for this so-called "High Grade" stuff. In the interim I have been using Z-Moly Powder by Dow Corning, purchased at a bearing manufactorer. It seems to work well. I purchesed a toy rock tumbler as it has a properly sized drums (replacements only $9!!) for about 100 rounds and tumble the bullets in BBs. No wax. It works very well.

Can ANYONE please comment on which moly is best - not guessed to be best, but actually proven to be the proper moly for coating bullets?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 09:54:06 (EDT) 

The deadliest .308win-round I've ever used on roe-deer is 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip backed by 51gr Norma N202. It clocked 3150fps in a M14. The deer looked like it had an explotion inside with extreme damage. The 125gr NBT would be dynamite for self defence.

Swedish FFV 7.62NATO AP handles the bodyarmourcrowd. Just make sure you have a proper backstop!

To Russell:

Have you seen the Barnes Solid 250gr .375SBT, BC.550

At 3400fps in a standard 378Wea. ballistics are quite interesting. This bullet will not disitegrate on impact.
Please Barnes, molycoat it!

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 10:00:31 (EDT) 

Scott: I think you're right, a thorough comparison of the different moly's would be great. Maybe PS will take it up, but it sounds like a really involved test. For now the NECO techniques and products seem to be a proven winner, even if they are pricey.

Sandy: I have talked to several Shepherd scope owners who seemed to generally like them. Complaints were: the reticle is cluttered; they aren't very durable (hard to quantify); they are "Made in Japan" and are not up to the optical quality of good US & European scopes. These complaints are all pretty subjective. It sounds like your best bet is to examine one firsthand if you get the chance.

Matt: I think you summed it up when you said "...I would contend that most of us don't have the education or experience to sort them out. So what's the answer?" I think you summed up my point nicely, and I don't like the answer any more than you do. Using your HGSP book as an example, you say that you haven't heard the criticisms of it previously. On the other hand I have read so many pages of detailed criticism against that work I couldn't even count them all. You'll see *plenty* if you read Wound Ballistics Review, which is published by the opposing side of these issues, or you can get a small taste of some of the issues at http://www.recguns.com/IVF1.html
As you say, there is so much disinformation out there that it's great that someone is trying to get a handle on it and translate those realities to the rest of us. The problem is that Marshall's conclusions may be wildly incorrect, in which case he's only compounding the problem we face.
Whether HGSP is right or wrong is not the issue. My point is that if I had read HGSP and left it at that, I'd know all the answers and I'd be blissfully ignorant... As it is I keep digging for more information and now I understand just how little I know.
Make sense? Like I said, I too would prefer an easier solution!
I have to take your side vs. Russell on visiting the coroner's office. If you're going to get into doing your own research, then you're entering an entirely new level. I cannot afford to commit that much time & effort to the study, and obviously most other people can't either. One has to draw the line somewhere.
But this is another overly long post and I don't want to annoy our sniping-specific friends here, so if you'd like to discuss it more feel free to email me directly. I hope this info has helped somewhat, even if it is "bad news."

Best of luck,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 12:30:30 (EDT) 

Sincerely,

Dan Torney
Dan A. Torney <dan.a.torney@boeing.com>
Woodinville, Wa. USA - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 15:12:28 (EDT) 

So is there anyone else out there that are having these problems, or on the flip side is there anyone that have excelent support from there CoC let me know i'll keep that unit in mind when time for re-enlistment comes around
Mike <mlkbar@yahoo.com>
Fairbanks, Alaska USA - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 17:50:57 (EDT) 

Thanks.
Dave Groves <David.Groves@dao.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 18:53:45 (EDT) 

If anybody has tried to EMAIL me I've been eating, drinking and (well you get the idea) moly.

Moly makes the bullet real slick, I goit that pretty early on. It leaves the case earlier on in the pressure build up between powder burnin and powder ignitions pressure peak. This creates a larger volume for which we pay through out the rest of the burn cycle with less pressure(the smaller the volume the less heat the slower the powder burns the smaller the pressure {our buddy Boyle and his law at work}).

This means a slower bullet coming out the barrel for two reasons a lowered pressure curve and a longer pressure which may cause unburned powder to escape the barrel.

So the remedy is to use a faster burning powder or more of it, depending on whether all your case is already full and whether the powder you have is just ejecting out the barrel. (again more tuning based on your gun, bullet, powder, barrell length, primer, etc.).

Now about how much and where to use it. The barrell must be coated. This can be done by shooting Moly bullets or treating the barrel with some of the Parsec's company moly treatment. I am not recommending their product but so far it is the only barrell treatment I know of and it is an oil base with moly particulates that are small enough to creat the film within the bore that is uniform and bonds without creating an etching effect.

As to how much to use, three methods have been reported on the barrell treatment:

1) Bore inspection after cleaning should show a uniform blackness
2) or just start firing moly coated bullets until the speeds are uniform.
3) Check the barrell by cleaning after set of firing moly coated bullets until the barrell doesn't show copper deposits.

As far as the bullet coating goes, once they get so dark from tumbling they won't get any darker by adding more.

I don't know this stuff it is what I have read and concocted on my own.

There is a fellah named Dan Hackett who espouses this stuff like it was mint julips (smooth) the way it comes out of me is like cold coffee.

My problem with all of it is that I don't have Scott's answer, where do you get the good stuff. Maybe NECO maybe Midway maybe your local hardware.

In regard to removing it, I beleive only some acids and strong abrasives do the trick. But these are torture on your barrell.

Sorry this is so long. I heard a good one what does a bench rest shooter call a barrell that changes by 0.03" its group at 100yds? A table leg.
 

tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Gotta get , back to the USA - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 19:54:35 (EDT) 

On a tactical note: Keep in mind that it takes quite a few shots for a barrel to "settle down" after cleaning. This is OK for us target shooters with unlimited sighters, but you tactical guys may want to think twice. Last year one of my friends went to the local 600 yard range with a high master long range shooter who has cleaned the 600 yard target many times. To make a long story short. Starting out with a clean barrel he was just barely able to keep some semblence of a group until the eighth shot or so. After that he shot clean. It was a dramatic difference and hard to argue with.

There are quite a few unanswered questions about moly too. Acid formation, health hazards of breathing (before and after combustion), some say that moly is another form of fouling that builds up, etc.

In my rifles I didn't see any advantage and so haven't used it for a few years. Others think it is the best thing since sliced bread.

This is just food for thought.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 21:13:31 (EDT) 

To TorF: Nope, haven't seen it. Personally, I keep hoping for a .338 caliber, 300-grain A-Max from Hornady.

To Stagger: "RE-COVER!!!"

To Dave: Yes, that is the correct name of the publication, thank you. On visiting the coroner, well, I basically live alone and, except for work, I have nothing but time on my hands (thank God for gun projects and shooting). However, if someone gets a handle on some good data, let the rest of us know. If someone would like to describe the type of data desired, short of needing cadavers, I'll see if I can do some research.

To Dan: I liked your story, and thank you for sharing it. I, took, have left the field, MANY times, without firing a shot. I've always believed "everything has a right to live a clean life, and everything has a right to die a clean death." That's been my personal philosophy, or creed, since I was a teenager. I didn't read it somewhere, it's my own creation -- but it's what I believe. I also don't believe in shooting something ELSE, just to get "a kill," just because I couldn't bring back the game I went after -- and it upsets me when others do that.

To Mike: Thanks for the follow-up. Since "time" was the only issue, if others could have been allowed to "cover" for your absence (if your absence would have been a "hardship" on the unit), then I think you had (have) excellent points for being allowed to go. Yes, these are desperate times calling for desperate measures (with regard to funding). When the top five leaders of this nation (which includes Secretary of Defense Cohen) have never served their country in uniform, you get what we have now. And yes, it is sad when senior NCOs forget to focus on, as what a former brigade commander of mine use to call, "the main thing." Politics have no place in soldiering.

To Dave Groves: I'm honored by your trust in me... thank you. As for removing moly, it's very easy. A thorough cleaning will do it (you can even include some USP Bore Paste if you have concerns), and shooting uncoated bullets will remove any remaining traces. However, you'll probably get rid of most of it by performing a good cleaning.

To Tom: You mentioned Dan Hackett, so you must be on the Benchrest List. I used to be. Dan is a very smart guy, but obstinate, opinionated, and occasionally rude. (Now that I think of it, he sounds like me.) Listen to Dan, yes, but use a measure of restraint before swallowing everything he, or anyone (to include me) says as "gospel." That's what I've done over the years, and I recommend the same to you.

Interesting news on Redfield, thanks for sharing. Have you verified this?

To Ron: On cleaning via moly, I just use Kroil and patches in the bore. I have no problem with someone who rarely wants to use a mild abrasive paste, if that's what they feel is necessary, but I consciously try NOT to clean the moly out. As you say, you just have to replace it. Mr. Hackett, referenced above, often puts his rifles away "untouched."

Of general interest: I was interviewed, via phone, by a local newspaper, concerning the WSJ article. They're coming by the house to get a picture of me, Thursday morning. I'll get it put on this site after it's published, but keep in mind I'll be in Germany from 13-26 Jun 98, and said posting probably won't happen until then. I told the guy, a couple of times, to make sure he thoroughly checked out this site (Duty Roster, articles, product reviews, et cetera). He's been here, and has been very impressed. All I've ever wanted for this website, Sniper Country, is credibility within the sniping and precision shooting communities. I think we have that. I also think we have the most educated, experienced, and interesting visitors anywhere on the Internet. To the other members of the Sniper Country Council, and to you visitors, I say, humbly, "thank you" for making us what we are today... "successful."
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 01:48:12 (EDT) 

Moly again: PS last issue said 29 out of 58 competitors used
it in competition, Rocky mountain Palma, I think.
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
here, there, & anywhere USA - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 09:38:51 (EDT) 

Russ, when are you leaving ?

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 12:25:16 (EDT) 

Enjoy your research,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 12:53:01 (EDT) 

To all Christians
I don't have a problem with any groups based on the beliefs they hold dear but I've heard "God" mentioned in several posts. What does this have to do with military or civilian long range shooting? In the future I will continue to post comments that are pertinent to dicussion I have seen on this site and would appreciate others doing the same.

To Russell
I have a few problems with finding a scope and stock for my M110, looking for a good tactical scope within $500.00 with a BDC and 1/4 MOA W&E. Also must have a Duplex Reticle with mil dots. The stock I may have solved thanx to another response but any suggestions welcome. Throw me a bone!!
SPC Timothy J DiPaolo II <timtherooster@hotmail.com>
Bamberg, Bavaria Germany - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 13:09:26 (EDT) 

Interesting comment lad about "God." If you are unsure of what "God" has to do with military or civilian long range precision shooting, I would refer you to the very intense discussion regarding the morality of sniping which appeared on this site a couple of weeks back. I do not recall "God" ever being mentioned, but for most of us, the ethical and moral questions which attend the concept of sniping are firmly grounded in the moral foundations of the Judeo-Christian tradition which has shaped and defined western civiliazation and, at least since medieval times, the conduct of war. This site is about more than precision shooting. It is an inclusive center for the tactical, political, moral, and technical aspects of a deadly art. It is to the credit of this site that moral questions are raised. Most moral questions will, at some level, involve metaphysical considerations. This post is not meant to embarrass or anger you. It is part of the discussion of honorable men.

De Oppresso Libre,

James R. Jarrett
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 19:09:22 (EDT) 

I read an article in Precision Shooting about some Scotsmen who dipped the tips of their loaded ammo into automotive moly grease and found good results in long strings of target shooting. I tried it at our provincial championships and found out a few things: #1 any moly grease on the neck or case gives you high - straight out the top; and #2 it takes a few shots to get a true centre of group. So useless in "liquid" form for single shots. But the bores are slick as a whistle clean and there is zero copper fouling in the bore. I scored a consistent second place in my classification six (!) matches in a row.

Second piece of news, my association just made an offer to purchase 1 square mile of real estate in the middle of Saskatchewan farmland. Thanks to the last ice age there is a glacial terminal moraine and a bit of an esker that will make a stop butt and a natural dividing berm. We should get 1000 yards without much dirt moving, and 1200 with a bit more bulldozer work. More to follow.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 21:14:31 (EDT) 

To Torsten: I leave Saturday. I should have the middle weekend off
(20-21 Jun 98). I leave on 26 Jun 98 (originally, I thought it was
going to be 27 Jun 98). Looks like I'll be on duty up to 1700-1730
hours, or so, but after that I'll be free.

To Dave in San Jose: "Broadsword calling Danny Boy... Broadsword calling
Danny Boy" (Sorry, I just HAD to do that. Now, name the movie, and the
caller.)

To SPC DiPaolo II: God? I'm usually sensitive to Jehovah's Witness
types, but golly gosh, I hadn't noticed an excessive rambling of
religious banter. We don't mind you minding if you don't mind us
not minding. Boy, I suppose we'll hear from the Save a Nauga
people next.

"... looking for a good tactical scope within $500.00 with a BDC and 1/4
MOA W&E. Also must have a Duplex Reticle with mil dots." Gol' durn,
lad! You don't want much, do you? Damn, why didn't you just specify
the magnification you want, too? If you hadn't said "tactical," I could
have given you several recommendations. If you hadn't said "BDC" I'd
have said the Tasco sniper model (see our review) -- but then, THEN you
had to say "must have a Duplex Reticle with mil dots." You listed five,
count `em, FIVE criteria that have probably killed you from the git-go.
You're going to have to bend on something -- price, reticle, BDC -- I
don't know what, but SOMETHING. Oh, but if you find one? Let me
know... because I'd sure like to have one, too!!! In the meantime, I'll
PRAY TO GOD that you find a scope that suits your needs!

To my dear friend, James Jarrett: You said everything better than I
could hope to. Thank you. By the way... that's a "favorite" of mine
(de Oppresso
Liber). "To liberate the oppressed." I know of nothing more noble
than such an effort as this. Again, excellent commentary, James.

To Cemerikic: What a nice compliment! Thank you for allowing us to be
of assistance!

To Terry: "... glacial terminal moraine and a bit of an esker that will
make a..." Ummmm... what did you say?! Hey, on as an aside...
you know, Terry, you Canadians have a lot of land up your way... you
guys ought to think about using some of it to build a nice rifle range!

Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 02:00:56 (EDT) 

Boy wouldn't it monkey with your brain if you had just taken a life only to have to ponder what you were fighting for was of no moral value. I wouldn't want to give a guy a gun who didn't have a firm footing. Not because of what he might do as much as what he might be put through after he did it.

I know what you mean by liberating the opressed.
>O ;)
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
why not, the USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 08:00:39 (EDT) 

There is a resolution though! You can purchase a 1/4 minute scope. These usually have 12 to 15 minutes per revolution on the turret, in 1/4 minute increments. All you have to do is mark the turret for the elevation once you know what is required in come ups. I'll use the SS10x42 Tasco scope since Russ mentioned it. This 1/4 minute scope lends itself nicely to this as it has quite a bit of room at the top of the turret for marking of the range. All you do is determine how many clicks up from zero you need for and elevation change, dial do that, and mark the turret with the proper number. You just MADE your scope a BDC model. Example: You zero for 100 yards. You dial up 2.25 moa for 200 yards and paint a "2" over the tick mark. You will have to plan this all out before making any marks as the turret will have to go around several times to reach 1000 yards. You will end up having a few numbers "stacked" on top of one another. The only down side of this method is you must remember your turret position in terms of rotation. This is easy in that most scopes nowadays have horizontal ticks on the fixed turret body that become exposed as you dial up. jsut keep track of how many ticks are showing, and you are good to go.

So, to answer your question: Feel free to buy any 1/4 minute scope with target turrets. You can make them a BDC. A mil-dot scope will cost more, but if you buy a Leupold with plain Duplex, you cna always save up to have mil-dots installed later by premier reticles. Email me at home and I'll give you some thoughts on what is available in your price range.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 10:29:46 (EDT) 

I had just finished reading his Marine Sniper book and I was truly impressed with Carlos. Read his book and then actually see him...wow..I was so lucky..
As he sat in his wheelchair he was very much active and certainly full of life.
What a trainer.
Had the entire class crawling around for a full week..
Too bad time is closing in on him...something no Cong could do.
God bless him...What a teacher..What a life..What a person.

Jeff Stephens <JffSpy@aol.com>
oh USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 11:26:02 (EDT) 

DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 11:45:53 (EDT) 

As one that wore the Green Beret for almost ten years, I firmly believed in the motto "de Oppresso Liber" which adorned the crest on the beret and on our shoulder epalettes. It has been noted, As Bill Rogers also observed in his post that the concept of "God" is very much present on the battlefield. "No athiests in a foxhole."

Without getting too far astray or unnecessarily rekindling of the recent debate, the news about Special Forces ops dealing with the elimination of American military defectors which so recently broke on CNN and other major news outlets is something with which I am very familiar. A subject absolutely taboo and considered of the highest secrecy classification even until now. They were the one category of operations that none of us would talk about, even to one another as we relived many of those exciting times. I will say that I had no knowledge of the nerve gas usage. My association with the operations involved Tactical Long Range Precision Marksmanship. If ever a moment for moral certitude was an absolute necessity in the conduct of a mission, it was during operations such as these that the moral foundations and, one hoped for God's forgiveness and understanding if not His blessing, was absolutely necessary to the psychological health of the sniper. If you wish to confront an extraordinary moral dilemma, "put the glass" on a fellow countryman during the time of war in the theatre of the enemy. You're damn right, moral foundations and "God" matter at such moments.

de Oppresso Liber,
 

James R. Jarrett (SSG, Project Delta, 5th SFGA, 1SF, RVN)
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 11:52:14 (EDT) 

I almost forgot. I'll try and beat Dave to the punch.

"Broadsword calling Danny Boy." I believe the caller was Richard Burton in "Where Eagles Dare." Es correcto, no?

James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 11:59:21 (EDT) 

Sorry to take up so much of the Duty Roster, but have just returned from the ranch in New Mexico where there is no access to internet. I have to catch up with all my "buddies".

There has been considerable interest expressed to me through private email about the upcoming Tactical Long Range Precision Rifle (Sniper Training) Field Training Exercise (FTX) coming up on the ranch in New Mexico during July.

For those of you with an interest, here is the tentative schedule and operational protocols:

July 10-12 (Fri evening - Sunday): Tactics and Techniques. For those of you with prior Special Forces or Delta experience, this is right out of Camp McCall. Remeber those "interesting and strenuous" days? There will be instruction on the following areas: Team selection, training, and deployment. Movement patterns, stealth, camouflage, hides, antitracking procedures, overnight procedures, site selection, communications, intelligence gathering and preops utilization, cover and status techniques, equipment, infiltration and extraction, etc, etc....

The FTX (Operation White Star) will be conducted during the last weekend in July. Protocols are as follows: Teams will assemble at the ranch on Friday afternoon or early evening. Teams will launch at full dark and will proceed to a rendevous point by differing routes. Upon verification of rendevous, teams will separate and head for individual RON (remain overnight) locations with strict noise and light discipline enforced. Teams will cross their FDL (Final Departure Line) into their respective AOs at first light.

Team leaders will have been provided with sealed envelopes containing "shoot sites" and target locators. Teams will unseal envelopes prior to entering their AOs and will determine their routes of march and sequence of engagement. I.E. Shoot site Alpha will be designated by a 10 digit UTM coordinate. Team will locate the site which will be marked by a piece of engineer flagging with a confirmation code matching the op order. The packet will list target locations in one or more of the following three methods: (a)polar coordinate giveing azimuth and distance (b) specific or approximate UTM coordinate, or (c) simply noting how many targets are visible from the "shoot site". Team leader will designate a shooter with the following scoring: 1st shot hit + 10 points, 2nd shot = 5 points, 3rd shot = 3 points, 4th shot = 2 points, 5th shot = 1 point. In the event of an unsuccessful engagement, next shooter will engage. Upon completion of target engagements at the shoot site, the team will collect the evidence of a confirmed hit and proceed to the next "shoot site".

Targets are either 1 gallon plastic milk cartons or 2 liter bottles suspended between trees, in trees or nestled within rock formations or against suitable backstops. Distances will vary from 80 yards to 400+ yards including very high and low angle engagements from "practical" shooting sites.

The course is strenuous and demanding. There is no winning or losing. It is designed as a learning environment in which the shooter is able to practice range estimation, environmental assessment and marksmanship in the physical environment of stress and rough country. It's a kick. If you have more questions, get ahold of me as I am returning to the ranch on Monday and will be out of pocket for a couple of weeks.

James R. Jarrett, Director
American Shooting Academy
(602) 581-6606 voice mail
(505) 773-4833 ranch - no messaging available. Call after 8:00PM MDLT

James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 12:25:58 (EDT) 

(It works for me, I am well blessed with weapons anyway.)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 14:04:03 (EDT) 

I found a Leupold VariX III 3.5 x 10 Long Range M3 for 750...if anyone sees a better price let me know where.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 14:21:08 (EDT) 

DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 14:31:36 (EDT) 

Steve: OORAH!!!

James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 15:12:52 (EDT) 

Cory: I agree on the nerve gas thing. I suppose when dealing with such dishonorable conduct as the defectors demonstrated that a case can be made for rescinding honorable considerations. The problem is that it brings us perilously close to them in our conduct.

I'd like to share one more thing that came to me. I had a great section leader when I was in the special projects -- I won't mention his name in the public forum though he is now deceased. When informing us of the rules of engagement for some of our more exotic missions, he justified the killing of youthful targets with the following rationale: "By killing the target, you were assuring that no son of his would ever point a gun at a son of yours." In retrospect, it is way too simple and their are complications which exceed this forum, but there was a clarity and simplicity that was necessary when tasking young men to participate in the necessary and ugly conduct of unconventional war.

Gotta go. I have to teach a Concealed Weapons Permit Renewal class tonight. By the way, as of August, any U.S. citizen can obtain a Concealed Weapon permit in the state of Arizona without being a resident.

Maintain zero and read the wind,

James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 15:26:16 (EDT) 

Steve, thanks for the info...I will check them out. They may not consider my agency worthy of any consideration for discounts, but it does'nt hurt to ask.

Tomorrow Gents.......
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL. USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 15:56:20 (EDT) 

Any scope with more than one revolution on the elevationturret is a targetscope, not a sniperscope.

If you take a fall in darkness you can not be sure on wich revolution you are. Counting revolutions and clicks from bottom or top of the scale is not recomended. Using a lightsource to check zero is a dead giveaway. A kill is highly unlikely if you are 15 moa off zero.

This does not happen with a sniperscope with a rangingscale within one revolution and a zeroblock at 100m/yds. If you fall just turn turret to zero/100 and count clicks per 100 for correct range. No guesswork or room for error. This is better for confidence than beeing able to make 1/4 moa clicks.

BTW. I tested a "bad" russian nightvision scope a couple of years ago. The slow clearing of "screen" picked up the millisecond enemy laserrangefinder and displayed it for several seconds. By keeping the russian thing completely still I could locate the enemy and kill him.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 18:31:36 (EDT) 

You obviously don't know what your talking about when it comes to scopes. If your worried about your scope being able to accept a hard fall then you obviously don't have a scope worth owning. A 1/4 moa scope is just as deadly as your so-called sniper scope and suggesting otherwise is pushing someone to spend extra money for a specialized piece of equipment. I've fallen plenty and my rifle doesn't take the abuse, I do. I've seen many rifles take a hell of a beating and hold their zero. You'll need to come up with a better reason for purchasing a sniper scope.

Someone who knows better
USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 19:37:44 (EDT) 

My rifle is new (the 308 12FVSS (that is short action) Savage and gues what. The only rings that he recommends I can't find a base for. Yes they are the Mark 4 rings and yes he want me to use the Mark 4 bases, makes sense.

Well IO don't want to be cheap but $130.00 bucks, but I feel like I went in to get a set of tires they were on sale but all my rims were bent (read new wheels).

The biggy is that the Mark 4's have 4 torx screws per and the base is a one piece Weaver style made out of steel.

Somebody please tell me I can use a standard set of Burris Signature rings and a two piece weaver base.

I know that bench rest shooters use a Weaver base and are constantly removing scopes and putting them back on with little to no loss whether they are 2 piece or one. And can it be true that there was nothing acceptable prior to the Mark 4.

Whine whine whine.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Have fun since, we've won USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 21:10:16 (EDT) 

Sorry someone but YOU don't know better. Been in this game since 1968. Never take a scope into a military environment with scales that rotate full revolutions for come ups to extended ranges. You have begged Murphy to destroy your whole day! The school I work at constantly has students that, under stress, fires a shot a complete revolution off. Yes, they know better! They are trained to read their particular scope. However, when engaging targets at various unknown ranges, from 400 to 800, with time constraints, Murphy will rear his ugly head. Quarter MOA scopes are target scopes, sniper scopes do not require multiple revolutions to range from barrel to 1000 meters. A 1 MOA scope will zero to within 1/2 MOA, which means you can hold to within 1/4 MOA. Snipers shoot and scoot, target shooters shoot, piddle with dials, and shoot again. Plus, I don't know about you, but I can't shoot within 1/4 MOA at 800 meters.

Reference nerve gas, only an individual with an active imagination would dream up going on the ground after a Sarin attack with only a gas mask! Any knowledge of nerve gas would tell you that most deaths are due to skin absorbtion, of which one drop would do you. Gas masks were issued for tear gas (powdered form) for prisoner snatch only. As James stated, defectors, turn coats, or whatever you wish to call were not respected, they were not gased either! Secondly, as shown in El Salvador in the early 80s, most reports of Americans were later to be found Russian!

Guess this got long enough, let the games begin!!!

And may GOD bless you all!

Rick

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 21:46:40 (EDT) 

Sorry man, your method of pointing out rudness was better than mine. I'll try to be nicer in the future. Guess all day on the range in 90+ degrees today with the new crop of students got to my nice gene and burned it out.

However Torf's point is very valide. Dusk shooting does not permit seeing the scope markings. You must count your clicks and remember where you are. Quarter minute dials just don't work in environments where it is light is too great for NVDs.!

Never shoot a boil, its an ambush!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 21:58:12 (EDT) 

All who guess Richard Burton and Where Eagles Dare are correct. What do you win??? Why, the fine satisfaction of knowing your memories have served you well, of course.

To Tom Scott: I have the Striker pistol and mounted a Leupold 2-8x handgun scope on it. The action, short as it is (same as the new short-action rifles), required extended bases OR extended rings. Of the rings, either the front was extended or the rear, but I only found one manufacturer that made both, but it wasn't in stainless steel (which I wanted because the gun is). So, I fell back on some old favorites... Millett bases... and they worked! I've always been a fan of Millett rings and bases. If you want range, you could use Burris Signature rings with the Millett bases. That's what "I" would do.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, June 11, 1998 at 22:57:19 (EDT) 

ROCK ON TOR!
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 00:17:39 (EDT) 

You don't have to fall hard to loose zero on a targetscope without protective caps on the turrets. I've managed to do that by just touching an object with an unprotected turret and added some clicks up or down or left/right. In darkness you can't check this.

I prefer a scope with one revolution, 100m clicks, or a rangecompensating reticle with fixed zero.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 04:34:45 (EDT) 

I have been using a Eagle scope cover on my Mauser SR 86 for five years now and it has saved my scopes several times.
Its quick to detatch and with the front velcro covers opened I can still take a quick shot without removing it.

Its faster than a Dragbag and will not slow you down when not on the scope.

I´ve also seen some covers made out of a neoprene Wet Suit material, but they soak up water and will freeze to the scope.
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 05:14:51 (EDT) 

Mein Herr,

Vielen Dank for all of your excellent posts. It is obvious that you are one who has 'been there, done that', at least at the heavily extended training level if not the 'took the shot'. It matters not which, you have the proper mindset and the attitude. I'm just a total tyro, still don't even have a decent long range weapon as yet, but even I have learned enough from my mentors on the net and in person to know that a target scope and a tactical scope are two different animals. Yes, a tactical scope could be used in a target shooting environment, and at times vice versa. Got to tell you though, I wouldn't want to take a Burris target scope on a stalk like White Feather's general hunt. Good as they are, I don't think I would have the confidence in one of them that would be necessary after dragging it through the bush for a couple of days. As I mentioned, I am a complete tyro, but logic does prevail. As the Gunny has proven, it's not the optics, it's the man ... excuse me, the person (gotta be PC here, or do I??) . . . behind the eyepiece.

Auf Wiedersehen.

Bye the bye, as I believe has been mentioned before here on the site by a member of the council, does anyone know of a female duty slotted as a sniper/special marksman?? The emotional and psychological frames of reference and response MUST be different. Any information from a woman who has had to 'take the shot', or even had to be in the position that it might be necessary, would be of great interest to many, I am sure. No sexism at all intended, but I, personal opinion only, believe it might be much more difficult for a female to pop the cap. This is just an emotional opinion. I've never met a lady that I feel could do it. Heck, I'm not sure that I could in a situation with no family members involved. Brings up some comments in previous posts, huh?? I would hope that I would be able to take the shot to be able to save someone, much as I would dislike having to do it. Whether I could live with it afterward would really depend on the circumstances. I can remember some situations here in the Bay Area, or near by, where I would have had no problem dropping the hammer. In others, I not sure if I could have.
In any case, it's extremely unlikely that the situation would ever arise. (Thank all that's holy, even if I'm not religious.)

George

PS To all of you who are slotted, or were and have been there, my greatest admiration and respect for your abilities and your fortitude. It's probably the toughest job in the world, and I'm sure not talking about the physical part of it.
George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 05:16:13 (EDT) 

With respect,

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 05:30:35 (EDT) 

Cory, spartan Supply has them advertised for $627. Email me for the phone number
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 08:27:48 (EDT) 

If a soldier misses at long range, he can say "oh crap" and drive on. If a cop misses, innocent people die, usually instantly. The gentlman above requested an opinion on a scope with quarter minutes and being limited to that wish, I gave him the best option in my view. As most of the people visiting this sight are not currently military and have to live with and pay for their equipment, they may need a little more versatility than what you might expect from a true mil-spec sniper scope. Operating with a 1/4 minute optic will provide that versatility. A one minute scope, while excellent for field use, has its limitations.

While I do agree with your comments in principle, to classify all 1/4 minute, non-BDC equipped scopes as "not sniper scopes" seems drastic and unrealistic.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 08:46:57 (EDT) 

Back to scopes. We have to seperate what useage we are refering to here guys. Police? Military? Civilian? While all three can practice tactical shooting, not one of these catagories can claim to have the exact same equipment needs. The military needs a robust, soldier proof system that can work in mud, crud, and the hell that is combat. The police need something that will allow them to deliver a shot to a very small area (medula) with total confidence, and they may not need something that can withstand a 600 yard stalk over rough terrain. Civilians who like to play or compete, can use either, but can get along fine with less. How many civies actually go out and stalk three days a week? How many can afford a scope that could stand up to that?

I guess my point is, before we lambast all 1/4 minute tactical scopes, lets consider what they will actually be used for. While everyone above had some very valid comments, you must remember this site is not only about military sniping. To put it bluntly: A cop with a fixed 10x military grade sniper scope equipped with a 1 moa BDC is unecessarily limited, and to think otherwise is not taking into consideration the differences between his operational requirements and that of the military sniper. They are not the same.

Good topic thread guys! I have really enjoyed it.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 09:11:52 (EDT) 

I agree, comparing military scopes with policescopes are the same as comparing apples and oranges.

My view is military only with extended missions and long patrols in mind. I actually prefer rigs with QD-mounts and a hard protective case for the scope. A 30mph fall on skis wrecks any setup. I've even bent a G3 so much that the bolt didn't move inside the receiver.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 09:34:45 (EDT) 

Anyone put any of the M993 7.62NATO rounds downrange? What's the accuracy like?
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 12:28:54 (EDT) 

Holy Ho Chi Min, Batman! That must have been one hell of a fall! Reminds me of the time a buddy took a dump down a 20 foot berm. Funny as hell. I had just got out the words "watch your footi..." when over he went and his rifle shot out, tracing a perfect arch, nice and spear like. Stuck in the mud muzzle first. I'd wager there a quite a few "dented" weapon stories out there...
Scott <xring@voicnet.com>
USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 13:57:22 (EDT) 

I discharged the National Guard in april.

The last 8 years I served in a elite skipatrol unit. Some of the other grunts were alpine olympic champions Ketil Andre Aamodt, Finn Cr. Jagge, olympic biathlon champ Eirik Kvalfoss, several cross country world and olympic champions. The rest were filled up with people coming from Army Airborne, Marine Attack (SBS)etc. Even a veteran sniper of the French Foreign Legion, 2.Rep (paras)served there. I came into this lot to improve shootingskills and basic military behaviour! They killed me going uphill, going cross country and going downhill. The G3 hit a tree wich I missed! The only comfort I had was beating them on the shootingrange.

BTW. The norwegian record on the standard 30km military march on foot in uniform, regular GI-boots, 12kg rucksack and a G3 is 1h57min! The guy who did this was a cross country skier. To get an aproved time you have to be able to walk the next day, no kidding.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 15:27:14 (EDT) 

To Thomas: I sure hope it's true (barrel life). I had my .338 barrel double cryoed (and electro-polished). Not overly cheap to do. And my gunsmith said to me, the other night, that it wouldn't be long before I'd be replacing barrels. On the other hand, he believes in the single-bullet theory, too. So, sometimes, I take his comments with a grain of salt.

Well, I may (or may not) have time for a few more posts before I leave, but I'm heading for Torsten's homeland tomorrow. "Loads of fun in sunny Wiesbaden!" (???) If I can get to the Internet from Germany, I'll check out what's going on. Wish I had a laptop with a satellite uplink. 
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 19:54:38 (EDT) 

Thanks
Ray <rfas@mindspring.com>
Nowhere, CA - unfortunately USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 21:25:40 (EDT) 

On scopes, I guess I could drop the BDC and Mil dots and go with a duplex with 1/4 MOA W&E for $500.00. Thanx to a few posts who made me see!!

To Dan, thanx for being realistic in your email to me, and don't pity me I have lost nothing for the way I feel.

I will continue to check in and read/post to Sniper Country although it may only be weekly, so any reponse should be directed to my email address.
SPC Timothy J DiPaolo <timtherooster@hotmail.com>
Bamberg, Bavaria Germany - Saturday, June 13, 1998 at 06:14:47 (EDT) 

While sizing my 7mm Mag. cases one day I wondered if moly would be of any use for lubricating the inside of the case neck.So I took some lead shot and had it moly coated by a friend.I took the shot and put it in a small pill bottle.All I do is simply lower the case into the bottle neck down and let the moly covered shot cover the inside of the case neck with moly.

Only a small amount of effort is required to give the case neck proper lubrication.Since I have been doing this it has made sizing my cases less of a hassle.This process might not be for everyone but it works for me.

By the way,I have used moly on my 7mm bullets and so far and I can say that it has reduced the amount of copper fouling on the inside of my barrell.

Also,I just became aware that Sako has just released its TRG-S in .30-.378 Waetherby and I'm wondering if anybody out there knows if they plan to chamber it in .338-.378 Weatherby ?
Jeff B <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Saturday, June 13, 1998 at 13:00:30 (EDT) 

Chandler also recommends increasing the screw sizes. And having for my first time really looked at the screw I can see why. Why would I mount my scope using 65inch-lbs of torque when the goofy screws that mount the base look like something out of one of my kids toys. No wonder I've seen all the gizmos for holding the scope in place.

Went to a 1000 yard shoot at Quantico this weekend just to watch and look at the equipment. It was extremely dissappointing. All businness no socializing, everybody shot and then left. There wasn't even going to be any kind of ceremony.

I ran into a fellah standing by a gun (A Marine sgnt.) Asked him about a set of scope rings that was on the gun next to him. He said I don't know anything about 'em all I do is train these guys how to shoot them. This was a member of the Marines shooting team.

I am beginning to like fieldcraft better all the time.
tom <tom.scott@lmcoc.om>
USA - Saturday, June 13, 1998 at 23:01:43 (EDT) 

I'd like to offer a word in defense of the marine sgt that was not technically knowledgeable about some of the team's equipment. I have a pretty fair track record operationally and as an instructor for this endeavor. Additionally I was a member of the US Army's Advanced Marksmanship Training Unit and did quite well representing the US in world class competition. I will be the first to admit that I am often not aware of all of the specs, etc. of the equipment. We had armorers for that sort of thing. We told them what we needed,and it magically appeared. I know that many of my student's now have far more academic knowledge of specs, ballistics, etc. than I have. My skill is in teaching and developing shooters. Quite frankly, the technical stuff bores the hell out of me. I just want to know what time it is, not how to build the watch. That is why I am so grateful for a site like this. I can ask others with far more knowledge than I for the necessary information pursuant to a specific problem. The marine sgt and I probably should be more aware of all the technical stuff, but, if he is like me, he is probably very consumed with teaching and shooter development. We all do something well and cannot be all things to all people. Just thought I'd offer the comment as an observation. Take care.

James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 00:13:24 (EDT) 

Kent Gooch <KDGOOCH@aol.com>
Sherwood, Arkansas USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 01:21:21 (EDT) 

Kent Gooch <KDGOOCH@aol.com>
Sherwood, Arkansas USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 01:24:18 (EDT) 

Sorry, I will not be able to come to Germany next weekend.
Thanks for the invitation.

To Ray, re. Blaser R93 Tactical.

I've shot with two Blaser R93 Jagdmatches (heavybarrel huntingrifles), one in .223 and one in 6.5X55. I've handled, not fired, a Tactical.

The Tactical is ok for static use (police?) and for the shootingranges. It's to clumsy to carry around in the field. Accuracy seems to be exellent. Several european national teams has converted to the UIT/CICM targetverson. I don't like the dynamics of the gun as a sniper. The stock is to deep and the bipod pivotes to long from the barrel centerline. The bolt comes from the huntingrifle and when used on a Tactical with mag. the bolthandle is to far forward. You have to reach forward to grip it. This can be solved with a custom dogleg bolthandle like the one on Enfield P14/17. The Tactical comes only in 6mm Norma BR, .308win and 7.5X55SR.

If you are going into the field the Jagdmatch/Huntingmatch is the way to go. Order it with laminated wood stock. The dynamics are much better if you want a fast second shot. The blind 3shot mag. makes the bolthandle come exactly in the right place. I think you can use all the barrels for the Tac./UIT on the Huntingmatch and the HM has boltheads and mags for all calibers, .222, .223 with several twists, 6.5X55, all the way up to .416remmag.

Blaser's heavy matchbarrels shoot like a dream. Scopemounts are brilliant. Take a look at scopes (Zeiss) with rails.

On the negative side, I don't like all the small parts and intricate action for heavy field use. I think ice and sand can make it inoperable.

If you want a gunsmithfree componentgun, take a look at Sauer 200 STR/SSG3000. I think it's better than the Blaser.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 11:28:18 (EDT) 

CIVIL WAR
"Rifleman, shoot me a fancy shot
straight at the heart of yon prowling vidette:
Ring me a ball in the glittering spot
That shines on his breast like an amulet !"

"Ah captain! here goes for a fine-drawn bead
There's music around when my barrel's in tune!"
Crack! went the rifle, the messenger sped,
And dead from his horse fell the ringing dragoon.

"Now, rifleman, steal through the bushes, and snatch
from your victim some trinket to handsel first blood;
A button, a loop, or that luminous patch
that gleams in the moon like a diamond stud."

"O captain ! I staggered, and sunk on my track,
When I gazed on the face of that fallen vidette,
For he looked so like you, as he lay on his back,
That my heart rose upon me, and masters me yet.

But I snatched off the trinket, -this locket of gold;
An inch from the centre my lead broke its way,
Scarce grazing the picture, so fair to behold,
of a beautiful lady in bridal array."

"HA ! rifleman, fling me the locket! -tis she,
My brother's young bride - and the fallen dragoon
was her husband - Hush! soldier, twas heavens decree,
We must bury him there, by the light of the moon!

"But hark ! the far bugles their warnings unite;
War is a virtue, - weakness a sin;
There's a lurking and loping around us to-night;
Load again rifleman, keep your hand in !"
Anonymous.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 11:50:10 (EDT) 

I just have a few comments to your post on the status of crime and terrorism in our world and the suggestiion that Military and Law Enforcement personnel should be able to kill without remorse. If War is necessary to bring Peace, it must be War on a moral level. You cite evidence that we are surrounded by criminals who kill without hesitation and governments who cause killing for personal gain. While it is true that this goes on, those who would set the limits and intervene must not be of the same mindset. If our Military and Law Enforcement personnel have no thjought for the lives they must take, then they are no better than the Killers they must control.Life is precious, and it has a flavor the protected will never really know. To take a life is not just a "legal: decision, it is a moral one as well. I have spent much of my life with men who have taken lives. We are all profoundly changed by the experience. Once done, you never return to the same state of peace or innocence you held before. To say that no man should be allowed to take the field without assurance he can "take the shot" is a comment taken without benefit of reference. In the special operations units, we frequently fell superior to those who are not. We have often said as young men, "i don't trust the man who hasn't put his knees in the breeze" meaning those who haven't had that same level of stress in training ( I. E. Airborne, etc.). The truth is, no one knows for sure what you will do until the moment you must do it. We all think we can "take the shot" without remorse. I've seen some pretty tough guys spend a lot of sleepless nights over it. You are truly blesed that your protectors, be they U.S Military or Law Enforcement have the compassion to consider the value of life before they shoot and then knowing what it will cost themselves, do what must be done.
Jim Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 14:07:10 (EDT) 

Íf you have a problem finding the correct caliber then try the following.

take a empty case without primer to your local ACE hardware and find a O ring that has the same Dia. as the primer hole.

Cut small pieces from the O ring and glue them into the primer pocket.

I put a Monster Crimp on my snaps´ and drill a hole through the case to ident. them.
If you want to be real fancy then find a place that will chrome plate them for you.
 

Bill, I enjoyed your comment, Men like you bring this site up to a high standard.
 

Torsten <Lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 14:25:49 (EDT) 

A military sniper is reducing a target of tactical importance. What's the difference between a sniper's bullet and a 155mm HE round. War sucks.

Both should approach taking the shot in a manner with respect for his targets life and not take killing lightly. We used to have a saying that "the only thing I feel when I take the shot is the recoil of the weapon." Botom line...It is an intensly personnal thing and some guys deal with it well and others don't. That's why sniping isn't for everyone.

On the subject of scopes. 1/4 minute turrets are great for snipers that are WELL TRAINED in their use. I've seen students of mine with target turrets self destruct under stress when trying to get back to their 100 yd zero after firing back to 800-900yards. I wish that someone at Leupold would come up with a Vari-X III M3 that would have a fine tune device similiar to the USMC Unertle or National Match sights on an M14 that would enable you to mechanically "fine tune" 1/2 moa from a given sight setting.
Personally I feel that 1/4 moa is overkill and that the average police sniper could do with 1/2 moa most of the time. Most shooter/rifle combinations can't make use of it anyway and it may be too hard to count off dope if the shooter has to make follow up shots at different distances.
I went through the FBI Marksman/Observer course with a M40A1 with the Unertle and besides having to readjust the objective focus (for parralax) for targets closer than 300 yards I did just as well as another Marine who had a M40A1 with a Weaver T-10 mounted on it.

Variable power is a must for the LE sniper. No doubt.

Love that M24! Come on M40A1 fans.
Kent Gooch <KDgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 15:32:39 (EDT) 

I just picked up the Sept. 1998 GUNS & WEAPONS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT. There is an article about a new tactical stock that should be in production late this year. It has an aluminum bedding rail that runs the full length of the rifle. It fits into a clamshell style synthetic stock and is affixed with hex head screws on the sides of the stock. Looks pretty good. And sensible. It should be available for a variety of actions.

Of course it could use a dab of bedding compound here and there.

Pick up the magazine for it is a worthwhile article. Not a lot to argue with. Just some minor points about 3-shot groups.

Ron N.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 20:24:24 (EDT) 

Absolutely AMEN gentlemen. As a spec ops team leader and 11, I;ve had the privilege to be around some extraordinary men, most of whom one could define as world class killers. None ever flinched at doing his job, nor did I. During mission stand down however, it seemed that those that appeared to either enjoy making people do the "chicken dance" or who acted as though it was no big deal, seemed to stay drunk all of the time or were not a pleasant a comrade to be around during flagpole duty or off duty. There is a difference. Any man that tells me he wants to kill people and says that he likes it (nevermind the shallow moralizing and rationalizing about bad guys committing crimes and the saving of lives) I don't want that guy on my team. That is the stuff of My Lai. We are different. We, as snipers take out our designated targets as part of our duty to follow "lawful" orders. We should not take any pleasure in it. Nor do I find that the true professional, while regretting the necessity of the function, ever allows emotional baggage to cloud either his judgement or stay his finger on the trigger. With all due respect to those that have disagreed on this issue, a human life, even human garbage, is not to be thrown away lightly. I have found too much aplomb and bravado in too many contemporary LE officers. I find that usually they are the ones that have never "seen the elephant" and know not of what they speak, for if they do, they themselves should be consider candidates for targets. No one hates violence and war more than those that have really been in it.

I had occassion during TET 1968 in Nha Trang to shoot what appeared to be a young Vietnamese girl about 8 years old on a bicycle in the back. When she passed the M60 post I was supervising (manned by very unreliabel S. Vietnamese Rangers), something JDLR (my favorite acronym for rookie cops -- Just Doesn't Look Right) as she went by. Maybe it was the hatred in her eyes, and the odd looking plugs in the ends of the handlebars, and the thin wire she had attached to her right wrist that seemed connected to the bicycle. On her second pass, I shot her about 60 meters away. There was about a four second delay and "boom". (Probably the fusing was a cannibalized M26 frag grenade). We advanced up the road to assess the situation and she was still breathing as most of the blast had passed over her as she had rolled into a ditch along side the road leading north from the Recondo compound. I gave her a drink from my canteen, and at the ripe old age of 23, with nealy 60 missions behind me, I felt like crying when that young girl died trying to take a sip of water. Call me a wimp. I would do it again, but I feel deep regret about the necessity that forces good men to do bad things. I envy the moral certitude of some of my colleagues on this site, but, we will continue to disagree perhaps with those that can do such a thing and find no question about it in the stillness of the night.
 

James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 22:12:36 (EDT) 

Glad I finally heard a Marine admit that the M24 is in fact superior to the old, fragile, M40 with and over engineered scope by Urnertl! In return I will admit that the Army's marksmanship program (if you can cal it that) is the pits. Check some posts from last month and you'll see others complaining about it. RE Ft. Benning Course, they still have problems, but I heard they learned them from the Marines. ;-)

Reference using three rings on a scope, recommend against that one folks. We found that the slight variations in bases cause unnecessary pressure on the scope. This has been to the point that the scope wouldn't zero. As far as those "little screws" are concerned, the only one I've seen break was due to a 1000 foot free fall from a student that mis-routed his drop line and the JM missed it on inspection due to all the other straps hiding the problem. JM was still sent to refresher. Last thought on scopes, I agree with Kent that 1/4 MAO is too great for almost all shooters within the sniper busimess. 1/4 MOA allows shooting to within 1/8 MOA or 1" at 800 yards. 1/2 MOA fine tuning allows shots to within 2" at 800 yards, 1 MOA allows shots to within 4" at 800 yards. 4" at 800 yards is pretty darn good shooting in a field environment. Since most of our scopes, yes they are 1 MOA scopes, zero on the 1MOA, we have found that they usually zero off aim point by less than 1/2 MOA either high or low, so we are actually in the ball park of 2" at 800 yards. Guys, don't buy what you don't need. If you can shoot to 1/4 MOA go for it! If, like most shooters, you shoot in the 1 to 1/2 MOA area, I'm being kind, than 1MOA is all you need!

Kent, Paul, James - I agree with James on the necessity of shooting when every "sensability" states no. That is the problem with this job. That is why the selection continues through out your career. There are three stages to selection. The first is selection to the school and the school is the second selection process. The third is the one that lasts the longest and continues throughout your assignment as a sniper. As stated by James some shoot and drink, or are unbelieveably obnoxious, or show their doubts in other ways. The de-selection process has already started on those individuals. You must look inside of yourself with a dispassionate eye and accept what you find. However, those around you must do the same! The problem I have ran into is the "allowing" of those that demonstrate problems to remain on the job until the psychological damage is too great. This is a failure on everyones part that was involved with the individual. Many times it occurs because everyone thinks that he'll "work it out". The lucky ones decide to go onto other careers and except thier limitations. The main thing that everyone can do is to accept that everyone who trains as a sniper, will not be able to do the job as a sniper. This does not mean that that individual is any less of a man, soldier, or law officer. It only means that he can not be a sniper and the sooner that it is identified the better for all. Unfortunately this final process can not be determined until the man has committed to a shot. I have come to realize that many who protest that they can do it, and protest loudly, usually protest due to inner conflict that they are trying to hide from either themselves, others, or both.

Guess this got longer than I thought, sorry for the babblings from an old man. I usually like to stir up aguements over equipment.
Rick Boucher <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 23:28:45 (EDT) 

I'll be on your team any day. Sounds like you have "been there, done that." As I said. There is a difference and it cannot be trained into the individual. It is a matter of character.

James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Sunday, June 14, 1998 at 23:52:13 (EDT) 

I doubt that Sako will chamber 338-378 WM in TRG-S as they already have chambered it for 338 Lapua Magnum which is beltless and probably a more usefull cartrigde anyway.

I´m not sure but I think that 338-378 WM and 338 LM have the same parent case. 338 LM case is basically the case of 416 Rigby without belt. I think that 338-378 WM´s case is the same case with belt and Weatherby shoulder. And of course different caliber mouth :-)

You may have to settle down to 338 LM or modify the chamber after purchase.

Specs of 338 Lapua: 250 grain bullet at 3050 fps at the muzzle or 300 grain bullet at 2850 fps. Barrel length in both cases 27". Gives a good run for 338-378 WM, doesn´t it ?

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 06:25:16 (EDT) 

Thank you for helping me be more sensitive. I have a tendency to have expectations that are a little high.

In regards to the rings, I haven't found a good solution yet.
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 08:15:57 (EDT) 

To Jeff B: NECO is selling the exact thing you suggested (using moly-coated shot for necksizing operations). I've used moly in a similar manner and you're quite right, it works.

To Bill Rogers: Nice commentary in your 13 Jun 98 post. Good stuff.

To Tom Scott: Yes, it's smart to use a larger screw for mounting scopes in applications that are "serious." You know what I mean.

To James: "I just want to know what time it is, not how to build the watch." Yes, this has been my experience in speaking with the professional and/or competitive shooters I've met. Armorers exist for a purpose, shooters for another. One job doesn't require the full knowledge of the other (though it's nice to be able to understand both worlds, obviously, for purposes of communication). Carlos Hathcock told me, during a casual phone call, that he never concerned himself about handloads. All he concerned himself with was shooting. He was given ammunition and he shot it. So, I think the point in that statement is simply to understand "your" role, and be good at it.

To Kent Gooch: Not only can the guys at Benning run a sniper program, they can avoid making double posts to the Duty Roster.

To Stagger: I usually don't like to dry fire unless I have no other option. In the absence of Snap Caps, you can use a deprimed case. Fill the primer pocket with rubber cement and let it cure. You'll be good to go. (There are other methods, but this one should get you going.)

To Jim Craig: I particularly liked your post of 14 Jun 98. (Rather appropriate, given the date of your post was Armed Forces Day.) I especially liked your general comment about being "changed" after taking a life. It's too easy, for some people, to overlook the fact that once you've killed you cannot unkill. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

To Ron: The September issue??? In June??? Well, okay, if you say so. I'll get over to the main PX and see if they have it. It's a bit, um, "quiet" here on post (Wiesbaden). I have a hunch I'll get caught up on a lot of my reading. Anyway, I'm always interested in a good stock., so thanks for passing along the word.

To James (again): "No one hates violence and war more than those that have really been in it." I wonder if you realize you just paraphrased a rather famous quote of Douglas MacArthur.

I read the rest of your post and felt two things: 1) Gratitude to you for sharing a "real life" situation, complete with all the feelings involved, and 2) empathy for you in that instance. I know I'd have done the same thing. I know I'd have felt the same thing. I feel sick to my stomach now (literally). And so it is, you youngsters who visit this site when you know you're not old enough, that maybe you might start to figure it out - that guy who a sniper kills in war? The hostage taker in the liquor store? Well, guess what. He's got a wallet with a picture of his mom and dad in, just like the rest of us have… just like you have. Maybe he's married. Maybe he's got a kid who'sYOUR age. There's a LOT more to killing someone that someone shooting and someone dying. For everyone who knew or loved your "victim," their lives will forever be different. By killing that guy, you've just made some kid fatherless, some parent childless, some wife a widow. And for the guy pulling the trigger? You know what? YOU get the "pleasure" of living with what you've done. And after enough "missions," if you're still not having marital problems, still haven't become an alcoholic or a drug addict, well hey… you're a better man than most of us. I wish the people who don't understand the need, and usefulness of "snipers" would see -- by the comments posted here on the Duty Roster -- just how serious we take the issue of "taking lives." They might be surprised. I'm not. It doesn't surprise me that we have a heart. Thank you, friend James, for sharing.

To Rick: As always, I enjoyed your post (14 Jun 98). Good stuff.

To Hexa: I'm sorry, I'd have to disagree with the "good run for its money" comment, regarding the .338 Lapua Magnum and .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. I've crunched the numbers on the computer and checked load data (especially downrange energy) and while at shorter distances there may be only marginal differences in bottomline performance, there's no comparison at all when you're talking about LONG-range shooting. Which, simply, is why I discarded my idea for a .338 Lapua Magnum and went with the .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. With uncoated 300-grain .338 caliber Sierra Match King bullets, I was averaging well over 2900 FPS (no pressure signs). That, with only 117 grains of Hodgdon's H50BMG. Before I left for Germany, I loaded up some moly-coated ammunition. I have loads of 120, 121, 122, and 123 grains of H50BMG waiting for me, when I get back home. The advantage of the .338/378 Weatherby Magnum is that it can do wondrous things with 300-grain bullets… "way out there." With due respect to the .338 Lapua Magnum, however, it's a very, very nice selection for a purpose-driven cartridge in the range between the .308 Winchester and the .50 BMG. Sufficient power with tolerable recoil. I'd never dissuade anyone from getting a rifle chambered for .338 Lapua Magnum, because it's a darn good cartridge when used with 250-grain bullets.

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Wiesbaden, Germany - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 09:12:04 (EDT) 

I don't want to prolong this discussion of morality however I also do not want you to be left with an impression that Viet Nam vets are somehow different than those of WWII etc. I can't speak for the rest of the U.S. Military but I can speak for those in Special Operations. I spent my "frivolous youth" during the psychedelic 60's but my light show was on a different frequency. We were trained very well and went to SEA to do a job that needed done. I and a team mate were assigned into a village of Hmong who had been suffering from Pathet Lao persecution. Their women raped and the young men forced into service. We taught them how to defend themselves. We taught them how to ambush or use precision fires to keep the Pl at bay. I have looked through the scope and seen the peaceful, relaxed expresssion on a mans face moments before I knew his life would end forever. He never knew I was there. He didn't know me nor I him. We didn't hate each other. He was no immeadiate threat to me. Still, I "neutralized" him that instant. (See we are already de-humanizing the experience with euphamistic words). Do I regret it? not the least. It was my job and I learned to love those little brown people, the Hmongs, that we later abandoned. "They" appreciated our being there. It makes no difference to me if any one in the States did or not. I did not lose my part of the war. Do I feel remorse at the loss of life or the seeming simplicity with which it may be taken? Yes. Am I haunted day and night by the experience such that I and therapy? No. But I am changed. Would I do it again? Yes, to liberate the oppressed. It was my job and I did my job to the best of my ability. I am quite confident that todays young operative will do the same. Do not fear that your tax dollars are wasted. The selection process for Snipers is rigorous, the training even more so. The "selection" process out on the teams is ongoing. Rest well our special operators will do their part.

To Russ T.

Please post some downrange dope on those loads. I am in the analysis process right now on what to build and am considering the 338/378 as one option. I enjoy extreme long range. When I was on active duty, I used to like using the spotting round on the 106 rr for a sniper system. I don't get to play with too many recoiless rifles anymore
Jim C. <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
Sheridan, WY USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 11:26:15 (EDT) 

I hope you don't think I was being critical of you for your remark about the marine sgt. Sometimes, it is so easy to misconstrue comments in written format. It is a shame that all of these great discussions, both technical and philosophical, can't be conducted with all of us sitting around a campfire sharing a case of beer. Your clarification of the absence of comraderie is especially compelling. I don't see the comraderie among the young soldiers I know today such as we experienced during my time bearing the sword. As a former AMTU competitor, our team (USARSO) was extremely tight. We worked together, competed against each other, supported each other in cometing against "outsiders", shared each other's problems, loaned each other gear, money, and even letters from home. And, we sure as hell played together. We even got arrested together in Panama City, Panama by the scum known as the Guardia Nationale. Fortunately, our commander came to our immediate aid with a contingent of our SF comrades. A job, it should not be, but as an earlier respondent noted, as much as possible, "a way of life." Cops, by and large, are much the same today. As an LAPD officer, there was incredible comraderie, especially with your partner. Us older guys have had a hell of a lot better go than the youngsters today even though they have not had to face anywhere near the same trials and tribulations. Tough times make for tough people. It's called character.

Alex:

I appreciate and respect your views, though I will submit that your observations are, respectfully, offered through the sterile prism of a zero frame of reference. I speak mainly of the assumptions, which are too many to adequately address in this forum, which you advance in support, or impied support of your stated positions about going forth with such absolute certitude. I wish to address only a couple of the issues which I find problematic. I mean these observations quite respectfully and sincerely hope you do not take personal offense at my disagreement.

First, those of us with operational experience, and I will not insult my comrades here by giving a body count, do not necessarily experience "guilt." Profound regret perhaps. It is the inevitable consequence of being an autonomous moral agent -- the principle foundation of Western Civilization and the primary component required of free men. I have never needed a therapists couch, nor do I lay awake at night grieving over successful missions, though I can remember with startling clarity the faces of most of my targets, except of course those killed in the chaos of close quarter battle ambush or counter-ambush situations. There is anonymity in that environment. There is a subtle suggestion in your commentary that those of us that ultimately question the moral appropriateness of our actions are somehow "weaker" as weapon systems. I may be misunderstanding your postion here. My apologies if such is the case. We are not so much questioning ourselves, but "us" as a people and the circumstances that bring members of God's creation to the point of killing each other with such cool deliberation (the hallmark and difference of a sniper -- it is justifiable, coldblooded murder). I have been very successful in the performance of my duty and I am quite confident that I could do it again without hesitation. The fact that I might regret such circumstances and necessity does not make me "weaker" -- it makes me worthy of the respect and friendship of honorable men, and ultimately, it makes me safer to have around.

As to your point about the differences between WWII and Viet Nam vets, I respectfully submit that you are in gross error in your conclusions with the exception of your thoughtful notation about the ambiguity expressed in modernity about killing. The experience and the research clearly support the notion that the experience and horror of war do not change (I refer you to the writings of Von Clauswitz). The circumstances of the support of your nation, and, the mere mechanics of coming home are the primary variables for the differences. WWII and even Korean Vets (now those are the guys that really got screwed), came home with unit integrity. VN vets came back one at a time to a hostile reception. Consider the impact such a thing has on a 19-20 year old grunt that has experienced terrible conditions, and often, worse leadership, for a year. The advantage those of us had in SF and the secret projects was that we were older, far better trained -- morally, politically, and tactically-- and sure as hell, for the most part, better led. Make no mistake, I have no use for the whining of VN vets that turn to drugs, etc. Life's a bitch, tighten your helmet strap, take a salt tablet and drive on.

Your general observations are well taken and articulately expressed. You are obviously a thoughtful man. I hope you take the foregoing comments in good spirit and I welcome further discussion between us in this forum providing the rest of our colleagues do not object. If you prefer, we can continue this in private email.

Respectfully,

James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 11:26:18 (EDT) 

Blah, blah, blah. I'm gone. Off to New Mexico (God's country from the back of a horse). It'll be a couple of weeks before you have to put up with me again. Miss me girls :)!!

James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 11:33:43 (EDT) 

Thanks, guys! - Alex(andra) M.
Alex. M.
Chicago, USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 12:37:09 (EDT) 

One very interesting comment was made above: that in WWII troops came into the fight as a unit and left as a unit. I could easily see how this could effect the morale of the team. In SEA, troops came and left as individuals. What could be more demoralizing, in small degrees, than seeing people constantly rotate out knowing that you has X many months to go, alone. Unit cohesiveness must have suffered terribly for the line troops. Worse, it would seem that you’d never get to know and trust everyone in the unit. THAT could not be a healthy thing in the field. You veterans please feel free to comment on this. I know it is not the vein of this site to discuss these things, but we put this roster here for you, so feel free to take license a little and express your opinions. Being born in 1962, the Vietnam war was nothing to me but some fuzzy images on the TV, but looking back, particularly after doing my own stint in the service, I can easily see how the rotation system in SEA could negatively affect a troops combat readiness.

At any rate, I would like to personally thank all of you, in the name of the Sniper Country Staff, for the well thought commentary appearing here in the recent weeks. The Roster is all about opinion. That opens it up to some potentially pretty wild stuff, but for the most part the reading has been excellent. Keep it coming. Differences of opinion make for a good learning experience and are welcome.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 15:41:17 (EDT) 

Jim Monson <mctech@win.bright.net>
Centuria, WI USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 19:25:29 (EDT) 

Hey, I'm new to this internet stuff!

As far as the Benning course goes, I like to give them poop but they know (if they read these ramblings) that I'm just yanking their chains. I graduated DHG from their school in Jan '96. I was sent through it because the USA didn't (and still doesn't) recognize my USMC 8541 MOS as equivalent training for the B4 ASI. They also don't recognize the SOTIC ASI either you know.

Rick, I know that we Marines aren't perfect (I'm actually a former Marine teaching at the National Guard (hold you smirks)) Course in Little Rock, but at least we have convinced ourselves that we are. Hey, attitude is important! I never heard the Unertl called over engineered before. Interesting. It's a good scope. At the time though it was about one of a kind. Zeiss, Schmidt-Bender and a few other European firms built "tactical" scopes but the Unertl redefined the catagory. It was heads above the 3x9 Redfield I first went to school with in 1980 on Okinawa. See! Now you've done it! You made an old Marine defend the Unertl!

I guess I've stirred the poop and now I have to withstand the repercussions.

8541, B4, SOTIC...whatever, we're all brothers.
Kent Gooch <KDGOOCH@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 21:26:36 (EDT) 

Don't quite now! You contributed mightily to a thought provoking and insightful discussion. Some points of reference was lost in what you were saying and what James and others were saying. You are correct in the mind set now pervading the general populace and the younger set in the military. That killing is never justified. This is a problem that the liberal professors are teaching the young in college now. However, James, myself and others in SPECOPs during the SEA war games of the 60s and 70s accepted that killing is justified and necessary for a free country. Thus, we do not have "problems" associated with SEA, nor with having killed someone for no other reason than that was our job. Regrets with the sometimes furtility of it, or the ambigutiy of it all. At any rate, don't stay in the shadows, give us your view! Besides, unless I miss read your first name, the female perspective is always nice to keep down the rampant testostrone.

Gooch - What happened man, I expected spitting nails over the M24 and M40, now, nondebate!

Keep the your powder dry guys! You never know what's around the next bush.
Rick
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 21:53:04 (EDT) 

You got your post in while I was making mine. The Unertl comment was to get a rise out of you. The Redfield was a hunting scope with many problems. Unfortunantly, I remember it as well. Used it and the Unertl target scope in the SEA games. Now to show old, my sniper school was in 1968 and I learned on the 03A4 with M84 scope because the M21 and ART I was not to be trusted.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 22:07:58 (EDT) 

Commencement Remarks of

General Charles C. Krulak, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps

19th Commencement Remarks for the Uniformed Services University at the DAR Constitution Hall, Washington, DC, 16 May 1998 [EXERPTED]

"...Last month I had the opportunity to visit the island of Iwo Jima. Known to the Japanese as Sulfur Island, it is a hot, bubbling volcanic atoll that to this day, still has active sulfur vents. During February and March 1945, it was the scene of one of the most horrific battles of World War II. During the 36 day campaign to take that island, a Marine fell to Japanese fire every two minutes...every two minutes for 36 days...a Marine was killed or wounded. It was the only battle, in the history of our Corps, where Marines suffered more casualties than the enemy. Today, the island still bears the scars of that titanic struggle. It is a place heavy with history and long-on memories. The winds that constantly blow across the black sands of the Iwo Jima beaches seem, at times, to cary the voices of the warriors who fought there so long ago. It is a mournful and reverent place.

Joining me on that tortured ground was the family of the late John Bradley. They had never been there before and they wanted to see where their husband and their father had fought. John Bradley, who had survived the battle, rarely spoke to his family about his experiences on Iwo Jima. When pressed, he would gloss over and downplay how he had won the Nation's second highest award for bravery: the Navy Cross. He earned that decoration by rushing to the aid of two wounded Marines, and then shielding them with his body while he tended to their wounds. When Bradley hurried to their aid, he didn't exactly rush...he crawled...crawled, because he had been shot through both legs just minutes before. Another reason the Bradley family wanted to visit Iwo Jima was because they wanted to see the site of the most famous battle photograph ever taken...the raising of the American flag on Mount Suribachi.

That memorable event...captured in a bronze and granite sculpture...is known today as the Marine Corps War Memorial. Five Marines and one Navy Corpsman took part in that flag raising. Three did not survive the battle. The Navy Corpsman did, and as you have probably guessed, his name was Pharmacist's Mate 2 John Bradley. Let me encourage you to visit the War Memorial one day. Run your hands across the cool granite...step back and read the engraved words, "Where Uncommon Valor Was A Common Virtue". Then, let your eyes travel up to the sculpted figures...young men, forever captured in bronze. Look for Corpsman John Bradley, you'll recognize him. He's the one with the empty canteen pouch. You see, prior to climbing Mount Suribachi, he gave the last of his water to a dying Marine. On hot, bubbling Sulfur Island, John Bradley would go the next 24 hours without water.

When Felix de Weldon, the sculptor of the Marine Corps War Memorial, asked John Bradley what had happened to his canteen John couldn't even remember...in the heat of battle, he had completely forgotten. But, the surviving Marines of Bradley's unit knew, and they remembered. They told de Weldon of his sharing his water. Selflessness is unforgettable...even small acts of selflessness are unforgettable.

[This deed] took place on 23 February 1945. That afternoon, John was struggling to climb the fire swept heights. The next day, he braved enemy fire to aid two wounded Marines and just a few days later, though wounded himself, he again braved enemy fire to aid two more Marines. It was not for the sense of self that he performed those brave deeds. It was for others...for those he knew and for those he knew not...Deep within his soul, John Bradley instinctively understood that [selflessness] is contagious. After aiding those final two wounded Marines, Corpsman John Bradley...badly wounded...lost consciousness. He awoke 36 hours later aboard the hospital ship USS Solace. How he arrived there is unknown. The names of those Marines and Sailors that carried him off the fire swept field of battle, who placed him on the small boat, who carried him to the ship...have been lost to history. Only their selfless deed remains."
 

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 02:45:12 (EDT) 

This is one of the problems pointed by LTC Grossman in his book On Killing, which I've been touting lately. I think most seasoned veterans from most wars would agree that, while the military is "big" on teaching how to kill (or they try, anyway), they put very little emphasis on how to put things into perspective after the hostilities are all over. Certainly, I don't feel that everyone who returns from one or more tours of duty in a combat zone is "a walking timebomb" (I feel that's a bit unfair to assume such a thing, frankly). However, it's obvious from the E-mail I get, along with a few of the more revealing posts here on the Duty Roster, that there are some things, disturbing some guys, that should have been addressed long before now. I'm just thankful that Sniper Country offers such gentlemen an opportunity to share… or "unload," as it were. It would be nice, though, if there was a more formal effort into addressing some of these problems. As it is, we train troops to kill, let them (hopefully) do there thing, and then we say "see ya, pal, have a nice life."

I agree with many of your viewpoints, and I think I understand what you're trying to convey. In short, I think a lot of what you said could be summed up by a favorite quote of mine by Dirty Harry in Magnum Force… "there's nothing wrong with shooting as long as the right people get shot." I think this fits with your comment that Americans just don't seem to want to "accept" that, sometimes, violent things happen… and, sometimes, that they NEED to happen. Americans often try to "sanitize" a situation, to apply kindness and humanity where neither should be applied. War is, of course, "a continuation of politics by other means."

I think it's obvious that you put much thought into your comments before you post them, and I appreciate that you have taken the time to share them. However, and I suspect you'd agree, it's hard to really get a "handle" on some things unless you've lived them, and no degree of academic endeavor can resolve some of the "realities of the field." Still, I think it's good to get viewpoints such as yours, if for no other reason than for heuristic value.

To Jim: Rest assured, I'll post a LOT of information once things are underway with my 1500-yard rifle. Right now, the biggest problem is finding a farm where I can get that kind of distance… or TWO OR THREE farms, in a row, where I can get that kind of distance.

Additionally, Jim, I thank you for not losing your part of the war. It made me sick to see, on the news, what was going on here in the States (protests, et cetera) when I knew what you lads were doing in Southeast Asia.

To James: I loved your "it's called character" comments. Very enjoyable reading, as usual.

I also liked your well-reasoned response to Alex. M. - that not everyone needs a therapists couch just because they occasionally reflect on the past. (Hell, who DOESN'T reflect on the past?) War is Hell, yes… but so is divorce, the loss of a daughter in a train wreck on the night she graduated from high school, and watching your grandfather take his last gasps for breath in some nursing home bed just before he dies. I don't think talking about sorrow, regret, or simply remembrance makes any of us weaker… and that some of us may have taken human lives because it was a duty requirement, and later discuss it openly in forums such as the Duty Roster, well… I think it takes a deep appreciation of life to take one. That's just my "take" on the issue. Again, not everyone comes home from such unpleasantness as "a timebomb looking for a place to go off."

To Alex(andra) M.: "…it seems that there is a pervasive sentiment in society that killing is really not justifiable under any circumstances." Yes, I got this from your earlier comments, and I agree. And I ask you to pick up Grossman's book and read it, as I am currently doing. And, something else… don't you DARE 'revert back to observer status." Hey, look… we might like what you say… and we might not… but you support your opinions VERY well, rather than just spout off, and everything you have said has provided some impetus for rather interesting discussions. So, if you don't have anything to say, okay… but if you DO have something to say, then SAY it, and don't just sit there, looking at your screen, thinking "boy, I'd sure like to comment on that." Dang it, it's a small world and a short life, and I just don't hold much with submission. Speak up, be counted! Dare to be wrong! "Sin boldly, for Grace is abundant."

"My point instead was that it is the country that was at fault in its treatment
of the Vietnam vets." I agree, Alexandra, I agree.

To Jim Monson: I'm about to start new loads for .308 Winchester using N550. I'll let you know what I come up with for loads. Don't hold your breath, though, I've got another rifle project underway and a few product reviews to get written when I get home from Germany. Eventually, though, I'll get to doing the new .308 loads. I'm a big fan of Vihtavuori Oy powders.

To Kent: You've got a sense of humor. I like that. Double post again and I'll cut your jewels off with an extremely dull machete'. J

In general: Could I get a little discussion going on spotting scopes? Kowa, Swarovski, and so on?

To Tom Burrows: Rings and bases? "Best?" Oh, I just HATE "best" questions. Regardless, I like Millett products a lot, and if your scope doesn't have enough internal elevation adjustment for the really long shots, you can use Burris Signature rings with whatever inserts you feel are necessary.

To Paul: Wow. Moving stuff. Thanks for sharing it with us. I've been to the Marine memorial in Washington, D.C., and… well, Hell, it does have a way of making a guy get all "chokey" inside. In fact, I always try to visit all the war memorials. I don't know why. Or maybe I do. I just know that I go, and I visit.
Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Wiesbaden, Germany - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 04:52:26 (EDT) 

To Russell: This may be nitpicking but I do not see a good trade-off in choosing a wildcat over a off-the-shelf round if you only get around 100 fps more for the 300 grain 338 Match King. Calculations might show that you could reach longer with it. Lets say from 1400 metres to somewhere 1520 metres. So what ? You can not hit any moving target at that distance, or you can but then luck is on your side :-) and the 300 grain HPBT bullet won´t destroy anything important hardware that far. People tend to move somwewhat all the time.

If you want the ultimate long range peoples-cartrigde why not modify the 50 BMG and feed it with .338 calibre 350 grain special made bullets. That would probably reach out to 2000 meters but very few if any could hit anything with it as the targets would still be moving. And barrel throat life might be quite short.

The best concept I have seen for REALLY long range sniping and material destruction is the sub-caliber ammo shooting Steyr 15 mm "anti-materia" gun. It´s trajectory, or the bullet drop, for the first 1000 meters is only 90 cm or 36" and it leaves the barrel at around 1500 m/s. After discarding it´s sabot it is only around 6 millimeter thick needle made out of tungsten carbide and it weighs something like 20 grams (?). That slices and dices anything short of Abrams M1A2. It goes through 60 mm of RHA armour 600 meters away. And the round and weapon are not yet ready. Unfortunately this weapon will be military only.

In any case I do not understand why bother with 338-378 as it is non-standard and which has a belt. Of course experementing is always interesting and you may be to something here. Unfortunately I do not see enough gains to be had at switching to 338-378 over 338 LM.

In any case good shooting !

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 09:13:28 (EDT) 

You are do respect that I had not thoughtfully given.

Thank you, I live free because of those gave up who they were for someone they knew not. "There is no greater love than for a man to give up his life for another."
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Proud to be, in the USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 09:16:30 (EDT) 

Alex(andra) M.
Alex. M.
Chicago, USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 09:47:59 (EDT) 

I would love 350-grain bullets in .338 caliber if the B.C. was nice… who makes them?

I don't think you're nitpicking, and I appreciate the information exchange on the big-bore, long-range topic. Again, though, Weatherby is producing .338/378 Weatherby Magnum ammunition, dies are in production (Redding and RCBS), and I'd not be surprised if interest in this cartridge picks up over time. For that matter, I don't think Weatherby would have put it into production if they didn't see a financial gain to be had.

To "Al:" If you have AOL Instant Messenger, look me up when I'm online and we'll chat. And I'm (we're) glad you aren't going to just sit there, "lurking." You make us think, and that's always good.

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Wiesbaden, Germany - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 10:10:10 (EDT) 

My partner was on duty when call came in and responded. Directly across from residence was a commercial parking lot surrounded by chain link fence and barbed wire. Many bright parking lot lights. Position was in bark dust around shrubbery about 40 yards out. Suspect put blankets over windows. Negotiator finally gets suspect on phone. Talked for about 2 hours. Suspect gave himself up out front door. Child O.K. Must talk to partner about setting up positions in bark dust...itchy!!! Keep yer heads down, Joe
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 10:18:08 (EDT) 

DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 13:29:43 (EDT) 

I just finished speaking with James Jarrett in New Mexico, and he asked if I would relay the following comments in regards to some of postings:

To Alex: Your comments regarding a snipers conscience, remorse and feelings of guilt is a point well stated and taken. Do not stay in the shadows, your thoughts and comments are valued and appreciated.

In reference to the spider removal---you should have called a sniper to get rid of it---they don't have to get close :)

Mr. Jarrett, mentioned that some of the "Duty Roster" participants were inquiring about female shooters. Well gentlemen, I am one of Mr. Jarrett's senior weapons instructors for the American Shooting Academy. I have been associated with the academy for the past 14 years, and have successfully completed all of his training classes from small caliber handguns, high power long range and tactics and techniques. Although I found all of his classes to be enjoyable, demanding and enlightening, I particularly liked and excelled in his long range shooting and tactics and techniques. These classes were "not" for the average overweight couch potato. They were designed to be rigerous and physically demanding. Incorporating map reading and navigation skills with little and no lighting, physical endurance (as practiced my military standards)and shooting ability. I'm not one to blow my own horn but to this day (9 years after what we participants--several men and one woman called the "mission")I still hold the record for best shot for the entire academy. Personally I think it's a great honor and title, especially for such a demanding course. Just as a point of reference, the weapon I used was a U.S., Cal..30, M1903A4 or generally known as a Springfield rifle, sniper version due to the factory stock modification, all original with no after market modifications to either the full wood stock or barrel. Trust me when I say that at 5'2" @118lbs and after packing equipment, food, water and rifle for just one and one half days in the rugged mountains of arizona, I have a great respect for all of the men who have "been there, done that."

Thank you for allowing me to take up so much space on the "Duty Roster", but I just wanted to let you know that there are female shooters out here who can understand and truely appreciate where you have been and what you have had to endure. My thank you for preserving my freedoms.....

B. Davis
Bonnie Davis <BDLDavis@msn.com>
Phoenix, Arizona USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 14:14:20 (EDT) 

About 3 or 4yrs ago I came across an add for a Swarovski Laser Rangefinding 4 X 12 scope. If I recall correctly the accuracy of the built in rangefinder was + or - 3ft at 1000yds. What impressed me more was the instantanious range readout thru the scope. Eye safe etc. I wrote the company offering the scope and was told the sales price was- well, let's say, astronomical-($4,200). I have since misplaced the nice color brochure of the scope. Does anyone know anything about this scope ? do you know the present day cost ? Is it any good ?

Thanks
Dan Torney <dan.a.torney@boeing.com>
Woodinville, Wa. USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 14:47:19 (EDT) 

There is a wildcat based on the .338/50 BMG called I believe .338 Talbot.Noted long range shooter Skip Talbot developed the round in some of his rifles for competitive use.You are correct that throat wear is extreme.According to "Cartridges of the World",throat wear was noted in as little as 250 rds. .

I often wondered why nobody has made an attempt at using a .416/50 BMG combination.I'm sure someone has tried this at one time or another,but I don't know who.I know bullet selection in .416 is basically limitted to hunting bullets (ex. round nose).However, I cannot see a reason why some manufacturer or custom bullet maker couldn't offer this caliber in a target configuration.

Anyone have any in-sight or comments about this combo ?

Jeff B <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 20:08:29 (EDT) 

Thank you again, for helping a wannabe.

Have you seen the Chandler latest book in the Death from Afar seies. He shows a scope mounted that has 4 rings on it.

tom
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
here, there &, Everywhere USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 21:07:09 (EDT) 

Dan - We triied the Swarovski Range Finder Scope at SOTIC and had numerous problems with the system. The reticule was wide enough to obscure the target (human) size past about 400 meters. We also would receive different ranges when miling the same target. The discrepency were at times greater than 100 meters. We attributed that to not being able to accurately align on the target. The scope clarity was another problem that I didn't care for, however, some of the other instructors didn't see the problem. Could have been my old eyes! For my money I would always by seperate gear. Scope, range finder, NVD, etc. Of course the Army doesn't see it my way. But lose one part of a piece of equipment and you lose other pieces as well.

Bonnie - Welcome aboard and keep adding to the conversations. I love different view points and comments about all topics. Especially if we can get a lively debate going. I learn more good stuff that way! Good go with the 03A4. I learned on one those things as well. We still teach them as absolete weapon systems to our students as well as the M1D and M21 systems.

Have fun all. Thanks for assist Russell. I may have cities mixed up in Germany. Where is Panzer Kaserne(sp)?

Rick Boucher
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 21:43:01 (EDT) 

Thank you for your kind words and the welcome. As far as your questions...where do I begin...As I said, I have been associated with the American Shooting Academy, formerly known as United States Markmanship Academy (USMA) for the past 14 years. It was not until I had completed all of the offered courses (some upper levels two and three times because I enjoyed them ) that Mr Jarrett invited me to join his staff of instructors.

As far as sexism from my fellow staff members; we are very professional and share a mutual respect for shooting and each other. As far as "male" students; only on rare occasions over the past 9 years have I actually experienced attitudes of this nature. At the beginning of all of my classes, I let it be known that I will not tolerate an attitude from any (male or female)student. I do not pretend to be a know-it-all with technical information on weapondry however, I can and do know how to use it and instruct others the same. If any student can't or won't accept that I invite them to leave.

Your question regarding men getting "pissed when they get showed up" is interesting. Actually they seem to try harder (it arouses their competitive spirit-ego if you will) to perfect the techniques.

As far as being married...been there, done that..(past tense) that's all I have to say about that.

Co-workers always make comments about people and activities they do not understand. I'm sure you have experienced this as well. For a female it just becomes more intense, especially when you would rather go shooting than to the mall. And "no", no one has ever accused me of being butch at least to my face..hell I like men. In general, the men who aren't whimps, geeks or macho know-it-all's seem interested to talk about shooting and the rest politely avoid me or the subject.

Again thanks for the welcome.
 
 

Bonnie Davis <BDLDavis@msn.com>
Phoenix, Arizona USA - Tuesday, June 16, 1998 at 22:15:38 (EDT) 

Thanks for the support. I have shot many different types and caliber weapons and still am partial to my old 03A4. It's not new, pretty or light weight like many of the modern rifles today, but I would match it against any of the newer ones with no questions.

Bonnie
Bonnie Davis <BDLDavis@msn.com>
Phoenix, Arizona USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 00:16:24 (EDT) 

I use a Kowa with the Prominar lenses and have not found a better spotting scope. I am trying to find out if it could be changed to include a Mil Dot reticle, has anyone done this ? Premier R. should be able to ? !.
I use it on a small Tripod that has elevation and traversing dials on it and find it very useful.
Is there a company that makes a honeycomb sunshade for that Dia. ?

Has anyone tried to couple a Night vision unit to a spotting scope ?
I use a small ITT unit in front of my Camcorder to surveil night movements and teach the class light diciplin in the after exersise classroom cleanups.

Rick, good to hear that you like them as well and that they hold up so good. At about 1200$ I have treated mine like a raw egg. Panzer Kaserne ??? Steve may be in Bad Tölz ???
Russ will check the Mil phone book for me.

Phoenix Gentleman,

Does anyone of you know a Dr.Joe Rustik ? He was working on a BAR in .300 Win Mag ? ?

03 A 4, we trained with them in JROTC, but I have not fired one yet.

I our Classes I teach the K 98 and K 43 WWII Sniper rifles and a Dragunov as well as a M1D and M 21, along with the H&K G-3 ZF, MSG,PSG 1 and the new AI G -22. Oh, and we have a Enfield but it´s not a original Sniper setup but I include it since half of Afrika runs around with them.

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 07:08:34 (EDT) 

FOUR rings? Good Lord!

To Rick: Thanks for the information on the Kowa. TSN-1, eh? Okay, I'll start looking around for prices. Anyone know where I can get them at a dealer price?

To Rick and Torsten: Hey, guys, it's NOT "10th SFG," it's "1/10 SFG" - not trivial, dudes, when you're looking it up in a directory. Check your E-mail gentlemen, I've sent you the information you requested.

To Jim: If it's a weekend thing, I'll try to be there. If it's a week-long event, I'm not going to be able to make it. The game plan has been for me to fly to Denver and meet Mr. Bain, and then ride with him to the event… subject to change.

To all: I'm going to Paris for the weekend (life's rough, when you're the Editor-in-Chief of Sniper Country, you see). Any gun-related things I should see while I'm there? (I doubt it.) No, I'll go, drink some wine, go "oooooh, ahhhh" at the Eiffel Tower, drink some more wine… eat something (from Pulp Fiction, I know they have the McCheese Royale… or whatever)… maybe there's a Burger King there… anyway, boy, this tour of duty in Germany is just KILLING me! (snicker, grin, chuckle) I've got my AOL Instant Messenger and ICQ hooked up over here, so if you guys (and gals?) see me online and want to chat to a humble serviceman serving his country overseas (boy, I'm laying it on thick, aren't I?), feel free to say "hello."

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Wiesbaden, Germany - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 09:07:24 (EDT) 

I have the Leupold 12x40-60mm spotting scope modified with mil dots by Premier Reticles. It is a very good clear spotting scope with excilent eye relief (a problem on some spotting scopes that I have owned and used) and it is a regular part of my gear that I wouldn't be without it. !!BUT!! I find the mil dots distracting when I am working up loads or target shooting (too many dots on the page that I'm looking for holes in) so for these things I still use my Kowa TSN-1.

The Leupold is also heavy (32 oz) and does not sit well on a compact tripod. For this reason and after seeing it go over objective lense first into the grass a half a dosen times at the Hathcock shoot, I hab bit the bullet and purchased a Gitzo model G126 camera tripod that allows for the legs to be set at a wider and more stable angle. The Gitzo wasn't cheap ($250+/-) but neither was the Leupold ($800+/-) and I still needeed to have a ball mount for the tripod. Fortunatly I didn't have to buy Gitzo's ball mount as other mounts will fit and aren't as expensive ($40 vs $90).

Hope this helps.
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Relaxing in the spring time in, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 09:37:36 (EDT) 

The bench rest people have understood these problems for some time, and have come up with a suitable compromise solution that works in most cases. Sinclair International sells a scope ring lapping device that is a dimensionally "straight" piece of aluminum round bar stock with a handle attached. After attaching the scope mount bases and rings to the receiver, this tool is lightly coated with lapping compound, the ring top halves are installed with light pressure, and the lapping process is begun. As the process continues, the tool will remove small amounts of metal until the rings are lapped into alignment. It isountortant to note however, that this alignment is maintained only as long as the mount bases are not removed from the receiver. If they are, the ring alignment should be checked prior to tightening a scope in position. It is also prudent to mark the rings in in a way to insure they are paired and can not be mismatched at a later date. Also, their position, front or rear, should be marked. These markings will help to minimize problems of re-establishing alignment if removing them becomes necessary. The same procedure can be used with three, or even four ring systems.
Fred Fischer <fischer.f.c@postal.essd.northgrum.com>
Glen Burnie, MD USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 10:57:55 (EDT) 

Point is: if you can not afford Mk4 rings and bases, do not put off oyur project till you can. A good set of Redfield type mounts are sufficient for most purposed, particularly civilian purposes.

On women: I have never met a woman who could not shoot once shown how, an I have met many men who could not SHOOT AS WELL! This one is another non-issue.

Spotting Scopes: Kowa. These are by far some of the finest optics on the market. Even the bottom line units are crystal clear. I own a TS-611 and would not trade it for anything. Ok, maybe a TSN-1. But it is a perfect size so maybe I would not take a TSN-1. Big scope that one. only down side of Kowa. They are not all Water Proof. This is seldom an issue and mine sees a fair amount of rain. No problem.

Torsten: The K-43? Man, do you bring back some fond memories! I used to own a G-43 (AC 1944) and it was, for a time, my favorite rifle. Still is in many ways. It was quirky, odd, and just filled with history. It actually was fairly accurate too boot. Not in the same league of what we discuss here on a regular basis, but satisfyingly accurate enough to be fun. I miss it a lot.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 11:29:48 (EDT) 

Event will run November 7-8, 1998

Entry Fee will be $150. each

Trophies and prizes

This will be a no B.S. field sniper competition consisting of a stalk, field fire course up to 1000 yards, stress course up to 600
yards, precision shot (Hostage) up to 350 yards, KIMS Game and survaillance exercise.

Absolutely NO WHINING WILL BE ALLOWED.

This Competition is open to all persons intrested in the event (Civilian, Military, Law Enforcement).

Storm Mountain Training Center <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 12:10:47 (EDT) 

Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences with the Swarovski scope in question.

Dan Torney
Dan Torney <dan.a.torney@boeing.com>
Woodinville, Wa. USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 13:21:40 (EDT) 

Sgt Cox
`, GA. USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 17:00:40 (EDT) 

"Pro Patria"
Bryan
Bryan <canjumper@hotmail.com>
great white north, Canada - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 19:26:54 (EDT) 

As far as the Marine jokes go, I've been in the Guard for 2 years now. I hear it every day. Any Marines know any good Army jokes?

Rick, your're right it appears that all of those 8541's out there are willing to submit to the fact that the M40 is inferior to the M24. I guess no 2112's read this thing.

Reasons the M24 SWS is superior:
1. It is a system. Rifle/scope, M144 spotting scope, soft case, hard case, deployment kit w/ spare parts etc. It's your complete purveyor of death system!
2. I'm a sniper in the field. It's 0 dark-thirty and me and my weapon fall into a sniper trap (creek, river, invisible fighting hole full of water) and the rifle is soaked. (I know USMC snipers can see in the dark without NVG's) I, with my handy dandy deployment kit can take the action out of the stock, dry it up and re-torque the gun. I've done this many times (Taken the action out of the stock that is) without losing the zero.

SSgt Gilzean of the RTE shop told me once that the USMC didn't like the way that the trigger guard sometimes binds with the magazine box on the M24 when it is assembled. I've seen it happen a few times, but that's why we run schools. If a sniper is taught to assemble it correctly that doesn't happen.

3. The M40 bedding (dura steel, DEVCON etc) will crack long before the H-S bedding block will.

4. I can focus parallax out of my M3A whenever I want in a matter of seconds for any range. The Unertl is set (should be anyway) at 300yds. It's common knowledge and John Unertl himself told me that the only distance the Unertl is completly free of parallax is at the distance that you focus it at as is any fixed focus scope. This comes into play big time when you want to engage a target at distances shorter than 300yds in MOUT or zero at 100 yds not 300yds. This is because the parallax gets much worse as you get closer to the target than the distance you focused the objective at.

5. Iron sights? Say no more.

Besides, the M24 is just more accurate. I ran a school with Army Guard and USMCR students and the two shot side by side. Let's put it this way. Either the Guard shooters were just better shooters or the M24's outshot the M40's because all of the high shooters were shooting M24's. I'm not ready to believe that the Guard guys were just better shooters.

Well, THAT should bring them out Rick.

I'm no armorer, but more than 2 scope rings is like mounting an M3A scope onto a $80.00 Marlin .22 cal. Hell why not weld the stinkin scope to the reciever? Just kidding! You equipment nut's keep sweating the micro-minature stuff and the rest of us will be on the range shooting the issue gear with the ammo out of the little green cans and doin' just fine.

Keep it light compadres.

Ready on the right! Ready on left! All ready on the firing line!
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, Clintonia USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 22:09:29 (EDT) 

Just a word on spotting scopes. The new M144 scope issued by the Army is a pretty good scope. It's a 15x45 zoom with a 60mm objective, laser filter, soft case, hard case and tripod (tripods a wimp though). I don't know what the civilian nomenclature is but I'm very happy with the two we have.

Army snipers. If your unit hasn't gotten them yet get on your property book officer's butt!. Rock Island arsenal sent out a message about two years ago stating that this scope was an addition to the M24 SWS and was FREE to units that have M24 SWS's on the TO&E if they got on board and requested them.
Gooch
Same as before, USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 22:44:55 (EDT) 

An Army Ranger went to Louisiana to buy a pair of aligator shoes. The shopkeeper wanted $500 a pair so the Ranger refused. The Ranger said, "I might as well go out to the bayou and skin my own aligator if it costs that much!" The shopkeeper replied, "Maybe you'll run into those 2 Marines that were here this morning. They said the same thing." After a couple of hours in the swamp, the Ranger heard a great thrashing sound upstream. As he got closer he recognized the 2 Marines: one had a great big aligator in a choke hold and the other had flipped the gator onto its back. "Damn!, he said. This one's not wearing shoes either!"
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 00:30:45 (EDT) 

To Bryan: Teflon coated just to be blued??? Son, you're getting goat-f**ked in the highest degree. Run, don't walk, to another (MORE HONEST) gunsmith for your gunsmithing/bluing work.

To Gooch: No, you didn't double post, and you can keep your jewels for a while longer and spawn for a few more seasons as you deem necessary. On the spotting scope addition… per "inside" information (my soon to be ex-wife -- we're still on friendly terms, it just didn't work out -- who works on the small arms team at ACALA, at the Rock Island Arsenal… where "I" work, by the way, in the Defense MegaCenter), the issue of including a spotting scope with the M24 SWS was a BIG b***h among the supply folks. The lady who is the major item manager (supply honchette) for the SWS, as well as some others, didn't seem to understand "why" a sniper system should be issued WITH a spotting scope. Boy, were there fights over this one! In fairness to "the system," a lot of folks in the supply system were concerned about units turning in the rifles for servicing, or whatever, WITHOUT the "golly gosh, ain't it neat" spotting scope. (Living two "lives" in DOD service - in uniform and in civilian clothes, this kind of thing happens a LOT.) Having started my Federal career in the maintenance/supply arenas at the Arsenal, I can tell you that, yes, this type of thing IS a valid issue and causes much worry among major item managers and logistics management specialists, so it's not just a case of some idiot DOD civilian wreaking havoc upon the troops in the field. However, it is a fact of life, as pointed out in Sniper Country's Murphy's Laws of Combat, that (paraphrased) "two items which need to be together to work, cannot be shipped together." So, for the longest time, M24 SWS packages were distributed without spotting scopes.

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Wiesbaden, Germany - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 04:14:34 (EDT) 

To Russell: My suggestion to buy 350 grain .338 bullets was just a wild guess. I do not know anyone who produces bullets in this weight class. Supposedly the bullet would have to have a heavier core than a regular lead core as it would otherwise require a drall in 8-9" range and that might be too quick for such a heavy and fast bullet.

BTW I didn´t know that 338-378 WM is no more a wild cat. Thanks for the info.

To all: What are the latest opinions around Nightforce scopes ?

I and and a few friends are planning to buy the 5.5-22x56 model with a mil-dot reticle. What is your opinion of this scope ? It will mainly be used on top of 338 Lapua Magnums but some will use it also on top of 308´s. The idea is that you could use it also for identifying longer targets without the need for a spotting scope. Of course binos would still be used along the scope.

Any opinions on the 4.5-15x56 model for a 308 Win ?

Thanks for info before hand !

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 08:03:37 (EDT) 

Thanks Gooch. You just made my point, so poorly typed above, with a clarity I missed. My point on the Redfield (or any other affordable and strong mount) was that it is silly to wait months for a top filght ring/base set if you can afford something less "perfect" now. "NOW" translates into practice today. Most shooters will gain far more from going to the club an sending round down range, than they ever will worrying about gear. Everyone wants a great system, but if you have to take a hiatus from shooting for six month while trying to afford the parts, you are cheating yourself good practice time. Work with what you have, improve it as you can afford to. Heck, I know a guy with a cheapo K-mart weaver mount (you know the mount? looks like a two year old slapped it together while doing crack?)that shoots as well as anyone I know. Sure, his gear is not ideal, but he spend a lot of time shooting instead of worrying about it!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 09:08:08 (EDT) 

I agree with the more practice is better than a little better equipment.

Also:
I have competed in our Annual State Championships, and for the last five years I leave everyone wondering.

We shoot a scoped rifle match in the Reserves at 300 Meters and the 10 ring is about 4 inches dia. You get 3 sighters and 15 rounds for score.
All have to be fired in about 20 Minutes so there is really no rush, the 20 Minutes is also more a limitation due to all the people that have to shoot during the day.

There are always at least five guys with better rifles and more time for practice that "gold plate" their ammo and count every single grain of powder. They bring umbrellas against the sun or rain, sandbags with teflon on top, big boxes full of tools Monster Tripods, special caps etc....

I shoot from my Rucksack with the hood of my Goretex parka tucked behind the rear Buttler creek cap and I load my .308´s 168 HPBT on a Dillon.

During the time they are panting and setting up I relax and do my little Mental Anti Stress Programm for about five minutes.

I am sure they are at least as good a shot as I am and their rifles may be better but when it comes down to the end of the day I have something to take home to my wife and dog to brag about and they just spend another day at the range setting up.
 
 
 

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 11:45:22 (EDT) 

There's an interesting website at

http://www.lascruces.com
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 15:21:58 (EDT) 

Couldn't find anything about 4140cm, 416ss, 7075-T6, or flamable solids in it. What is interesting?

"Only accurate rifles are interesting." -- Townsend Whelen
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 18:33:51 (EDT) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 18:43:03 (EDT) 

Dave Groves <David.Groves@dao.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 19:17:44 (EDT) 

Dayton Bag & Burlap
322 Davis Ave.
Dayton, OH 45403
(800)543-3400

The stuff we buy is in 4' wide rolls. I don't know how long they are but the rolls are about 1' thick. All of the cool colors are available. Last time I priced them they were up to about $160.00 a roll. Kind of steep if you are just building a single ghillie but get together with a few buddies and you're gtg.
Gooch <KDGOOCH@AOL.COM>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 19:17:50 (EDT) 

Rich: Thanx for the advice. How durable is that process?
Anyone else have anything on the Winchester model 70 HV stainless barrel with synthetic stock?
Bryan <canjumper@hotmail.com>
great white north, ont Canada - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 22:14:13 (EDT) 

I spoke with James Jarrett earlier this evening from New Mexico and he wanted me to send his regards to everyone at the Duty Roster. I mailed him some of the posts from earlier in the week...his reply "good posts".
Bonnie Davis <BDLDavis@msn.com>
Phoenix, Arizona USA - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 00:07:59 (EDT) 

To Rich and Bryan: I had no idea the barrel is stainless steel. I'd have understood, otherwise, and would have commented accordingly. Thanks. Also, stainless steel doesn't accept phosphating well, either, if you didn't know already. Yes, to blue the stainless steel, the metal will have to be prepped via another process.

To Dave Groves: Unless that's a new bullet, the B.C. will be listed on the Sierra Bullets website.

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Wiesbaden, Germany - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 05:13:38 (EDT) 

The BC of 100grn .257 HPBT Match King is .250 @ 2800 fps and above, with a Sectional Density of .195.
 

Jim Monson <mctech@win.bright.net>
Centuria, WI USA - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 07:54:01 (EDT) 

Check out Walter's Suterkrippen Imbiss across from the Amelia Erhart Hotel. Excellent chow. I was in Wiesbaden from 81-82.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 10:48:40 (EDT) 

Paul H: I love it!!! Ft Lewis 77-80 19D20
Joe R <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.WA.US>
Kelso, WA USA - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 13:23:49 (EDT) 

How's it going? I used to be an Army Recruiter in Longview/Kelso, etc. from 86 to 89. What an ate up unit that was. Maybe you pulled me over once or twice. We're thinking of moving back there when I retire, maybe Kalama. Great hunting up there.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 13:56:56 (EDT) 

If you will look in the current Brownells catalog, they have some stuff that comes in a spray can. it is a Teflon/Moly coating that you can do at home.

NOW, having said that some guys are groaning and making faces....your thinking...sure sure, looks like someone got carried away with a can of spray paint.

I too was very skeptical when it was first brought to my attention.....So, I tried it on an old 10/.22 .

It was the first time, But it looked really good. I had built a little confidence by this time so I detail stipped my stainless Springfield 1991-A1 to its component parts, beadblasted and degreased it...( follow the instructions damn it.) heated it, sprayed it and baked at 300something for 30 min....Man was I impressed. It looked like I had sent it to get Black T or Bearskin coating put on it.

All for only 25$ bucks for a can of this stuff! Put it on everything but the bore. Just A little Breakfree on a patch after cleaning and this thing runs slick as snot.

If'n ya can't afford a two to three hundred dollar teflon job at Robar, I would highly recommend taking a look at this stuff.

Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL. USA - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 14:15:30 (EDT)

Next outing I will try another technique described at the national matches on the tailgate of a visiting American shooter. I will buy a spray can of similar automotive moly grease. Spray ("decant" were his words) a quantity in a small resealable bottle, such as Tupperwear. Then dip the bullet nose first in and set point down in the cartridge box to dry.

I still have the habit of pushing a dry patch through the bore to lift off any gritty powder residue. I'll report back on this means.

Russell: ref a piece of land for a range, a terminal moraine is any pile of dirt where the glacier stopped or stuttered, and an esker is the remnant stream bed from under a glacier. Here in Canada where our last ice age was only 10,000 years ago - or two years ago if you choose - glacial landforms are an interesting object of natural history study.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 21:08:07 (EDT) 

Bryan with the Win. M70 HV: What is your intended purpose for this rifle, if I may respectfully ask? The barrel will shoot just as good, as-is, for a lot less money. Cory's plan sounds like the next best thing. Unless I was doing it "for real", I wouldn't give the appearance of stainless steel in the white a second thought.

Has anyone used the H-S Precision tactical stock? I saw one in a Brownell's catalog for $385 a couple of years ago and I really admire that adjustable length of pull feature.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Saturday, June 20, 1998 at 06:00:23 (EDT) 

I'm thinking in your terms on a ultra high powered rifle.

I've trying to get a single shot falling block action from a german antitankrifle called PzB 39.

I've already got a barrel for .50BMG.

I'd like to get another barrel and chamber it for a the 50BMG necked down to .458 (.458 Swift?) and shoot Barnes X bullets. No muzzlebrake will be nessesery in this configuration making it more userfriendly. .416 and even .375 has been thought of but I'm to lazy at the reloadingbench. I just want a necked down full length case. Shortening the .50 BMG-case is to much work. The .458 Swift is not practical but should be fun!

Any american barrelbaker who can make 40-45" stainless barrelblanks in .375, .416 or .458?

BTW, I've read somewere of a .50PPC, a shortend and necked down 20mm case.

If I go nuts in the future I've got a brand new 20mm FLAK 38 barrel and bolt stored. Anybody know were I can get a receiver? :-)
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, June 20, 1998 at 09:04:44 (EDT) 

Regarding the H-S Precision Tactical stock; I only handled it a couple of times and love the way it looks but hate the way it feels and shoots. The adjustable length of pull works fairly well but the adjustable cheek piece is terrible.

There is no way to lock the cheek piece in place once you've raised it off the stock. The adjustment knob on the bottom doesn't lock and will move with the slightest touch. This will do horrible things to your cheek spot, eye relief and overall position!
I know that several very good organizations put together rifles using this stock but I personally prefer a McMillan or maybe one of the new Gunsite UARS stocks.

But you might try to find someone who has used an H-S stock for a while. Maybe there's a way to stiffen the adjustment I haven't tried.
 
 
 

Brian Middleton <slapsho7@hotmail.com>
Irvine, CA USA - Saturday, June 20, 1998 at 12:40:38 (EDT) 

``Pro Patria``
Bryan
Bryan <canjumper@hotmail.com>
the great Hummid north, ont Canada - Saturday, June 20, 1998 at 13:36:44 (EDT) 

Paul H. Don't get me wrong, I have an H-S on my Favorite Winchester action, Fixed though, and I love it. I have a buddy here who was a Gunsmith with Patriot Arms when they were here in Panama City and he has one with the adjustable butt. I played with it some and I just do not seem to like it. It is too clunky.

Here is an Idea for anyone who cares. If you want an adjustable cheek piece, try this. It will require you to drill your stock about three quarters of the way up from the bottom edge and take a piece of brass rod or stainless rod, drill and tap the rod to accept a piece of threaded rod. Attach a knurled knob to the threaded rod. On the other end you will have to braze or weld a flat washer, on an angle to the contour of the stock.

Now, to do that, you have to put the brass rod into the hole in the stock, mark it to the contour of the stock, take it back out and grind or cut to those lines. then attach the flat washer, the angle will be slight. Lost? probably. Just picture this, you have a flat washer on the cheek side, and a knob for tensioning on the other side.

HOW in the hell is that an adjustable cheek piece? I'm trying hard not to take up too much space on the Roster so bear with me. NOW, get some Kydex from one of the Custom Knife making catalogs, Make a template out of paper in what ever shape suits you, kind of a saddle shape. Experiment! While the paper is sitting there, mark the spot on the paper where the rod goes through the stock, take the paper off. measure down the sheet of paper 2-3 in. this will be the adjustment slot. Transfer the pattern to the Kydex. Cut the pattern out. Heat the kydex in the oven at 300 deg. for about 2-3 min it will get flexible. (It is a Thermoformable plastic.) you have seen holsters made out of it. make two patterns out of the kydex. take the first one out of the oven and drape it over the stock, when it cools it will be the shape of your stock. do the same with the second piece of kydex. now you have to identical shaped pieces. Epoxy, with a very thin coat of epoxy, the kydex pieces together. this is your thick cheek piece. cut the up/down slot w/drill press and hog out with dremel tool. Attach to whole mess together. on your stock

Sorry if I used to many K of space on the roster. That is the quick and dirty of it.

E-mail me and I will try to do a detailed instruction with diagrams and snail mail it back to you. I make custom knives and I was playing with a piece of kydex one day. My rifle was in the shop too. Hmm, this looks just like what Mcmillian puts on for their cheek pieces.....So I started tinkering.

You likey, Work good, last long time GI.
 

Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, "On Fire" FL. USA - Saturday, June 20, 1998 at 15:02:31 (EDT) 

Brian M.: Once I determine the proper cheeck piece height couldn't I just pack bedding compound or epoxy resin into the space underneath the cheek piece? I wouldn't plan to have to readjust that (mounting a different scope, barreled action, etc.). The length of pull adjustment however would be handy when transitioning between summer and winter clothing. The stock on my Savage 110FP Tactical is actually too short for me, placing my thumb too near my face. I wonder if I could get just the screw-adjustable buttplate assembly and then modify the factory stock.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Saturday, June 20, 1998 at 15:40:47 (EDT) 

Gooch and Russell - The M144 spotting scope is authorized one for one with present M49s. The scope is also authorized as an augment to the M24 SWS. This means that the M144 is kept seperate from the M24 on turn in. And when you receive a new M24 you do not receive a new M144. The issue is the same as the issue of the old M49 which was seperate from the M21. The M144 is also authorized for scout and recon platoons. The scope is pretty good but the tripod violates the GI and three steel ball bearing rule! I believe the setup is made by Bushnell.

Gooch - "Weld the scope"!!! Shades of the Corps and the almost disaster of the civies working on the inital design concept of the M24. That's what they wanted to do until I blew up at them. They still remember me at Rock Island over that one.

Torston - The BAR you are talking about has been fired by SPECOPs and we had problems with them in a little disaster of a country in Africa that starts with the letter S. I understand they have corrected the problem but I have not heard of anyone firing the new version and if it works better than the old. $1200 for the Kowa! No wonder you treat it as a raw egg! I want to see the new version at 82mm objective lens. I understand the scope is actually smaller inlength and more compact. Do you know of a German, (I believe) spotting scope that is 100mm? We need to trade out our old Unertl 100mm scopes due to age and we are getting jerked around by Unertl. We saw an ad for a range spotting scope at 100mm. Anyone out there know about this? Cost, durability, clearity, etc?

Guess I've rattled way too much. Have fun guys, still no fights over M40 and M24?

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, June 20, 1998 at 20:38:18 (EDT) 

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, June 20, 1998 at 20:44:31 (EDT) 

ragin aardvark
class 1-89 USMC
robert smith <ragin aardvark@yahoo.com>
twin falls , Idaho USA - Sunday, June 21, 1998 at 00:09:24 (EDT) 

Give a GI three steel ball bearing and lock him in an empty closet. He will break one, lose one, and trade the other away for a six pack.

Liked your poem and it is pertinent today.

MW - Which army sniper school and when? I believe in building the students ability to shoot and group. But if the weapon groups at 3 MOA, I don't care how good of a shot you are you will not hit your target with every shot. Out rule is to test the shooter and not the equipment. When one of my students fail. I want to make dam sure it is the shooter and not a piece of equipment I gave him for the course. If we even suspect that the equipment is faulty we shoot the weapon for accuracy or trade it out.

Steve - you can't "defend the M40"!!! ;-)

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, June 21, 1998 at 11:54:02 (EDT) 

OUT HERE
JOHN W <REAPER6@AOL.COM>
EL PASO, TX USA - Sunday, June 21, 1998 at 11:57:26 (EDT) 

JOHN W <REAPER6@AOL.COM>
El Paso, TX USA - Sunday, June 21, 1998 at 14:41:44 (EDT) 

If you get in touch with Mike Lau at Texas Brigade Armory he could hook you up with the load info. I think he is in Houston. He writes for Precision Shooting and Tactical Shooter mags and knows his stuff.

You need to try the new 175gr load from Federal if you want to take that "Ultimate" sniper rifle of yours out past 600yds/m. The 168 is getting close to its limits past about 700. The 175 gr Federal load is pretty close to the M118LR that is replacing the Special Ball that we all grew to distrust. The M118LR is a good example of what the government can do right. It's up there with poncho liners, jungle boots and Tobasco sauce in the MRE's. It's good gear, laminate it and take it to the field.

With a screen name like reaper6 I bet you went to the 1st Marine Division school didn't you? .
Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
sherwood, AR USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 00:02:17 (EDT) 

Optolyth in Germany make a TBG 100 GA/APO with a 100 mm Objective Lens in a straight and 45° angled version.
Waterproof, Nitrogen filled, Rubber Armored, extendable Sunshade. Length 395 mm Weight 2425 g.
Retail is about $1.380

I can get more info for you and could arrange delivery if needed.

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 05:14:18 (EDT) 

A good alternative for those needing an adjustable LOP, would be to purchase the fixed HS stock, and cut about a half inch or more off the butt. Make some spacers and shape them on a belt sander. You can then add or substract spacers dependend on your needs, or climate.

As far as an adjustable cheek piece goes, sticking with the fixed stock allows several homemade options. Better still, avoid that big glass that is so popular today and forget that particular problem!

Using the HS, McMillian, or Autauga stick is a far better choice than the Choate (Plaster) stock. That thing is best left to its alternative use: Ship's anchor. Let the heated arguments begin! Hee hee...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 09:00:14 (EDT) 

Chuck Williams <pwilli3488@aol.com>
Richmond, TX USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 14:18:09 (EDT) 

Now, if on the other hand you are totally mobile, such as a "still" hunter or stalker in deep wood, humping the extra weight will not give you much advantage as your binos will suffice. Also, if your scope is 10x or above, you can generaly spot the impact, up to a point and depending on surrounding ground structure.

But I have to tell you, for what trouble humping a scope may bring, it sure is nice to see that incredibly clear view the scope affords.
Scott <here or there>
USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 15:05:29 (EDT) 

I would guess that your friend was referring to John "Rocky Mountain High" Denver. Served as a sniper in the Nam, huh? Right. BTW, I have this piece of property in Florida . . .
George L. Dery <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 15:46:20 (EDT) 

DVC
George
George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 16:02:34 (EDT) 

Shooting in the 11 pound ( rifle weight) sporter class, my totally stock, off the shelf .300 WIn. Mag. Sendero and I managed a fourth place with a score of 75x100. I was helped greatly by a gentleman who spotted for me to get me on paper during the spotter time period. I had sent my scope back to Leupold to have target knobs installed, and didn't get it back until the day before the match! Match day (Saturday, 6/20) found me on my local range (located only an hour from the 1,000 yard shoot) at 5:30 a.m. using 50 yard(!) paper ballistic numbers purchased from Premier Reticle to get in the ball park. It was too foggy to go any further out! I later fired five spotter rounds on the 1,000 yard line, with rounds 4 and 5 in the black!(12 inch bull) yippee! HOWEVER, in the middle of the record string, some kind of funky little breeze drifted some of my rounds about 10 inches left. The second place shooter also had the same thing happen to him. (He scored an 82.) Top shooter was a lady with a score of 88.

Anyway, I was really happy with this result, as my previous performance at a match had me with 21 rounds fired and NONE on paper. We live and learn.
Scott Williams <swilliam@oak.kcsd.k12.pa.us>
Lock Haven, PA USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 17:28:15 (EDT) 

Chuck, you gave me one of the best laughs I've had yet on this site. John Denver, Song Writer-Sniper. I couldn't resist poking fun at you. Don't take it personally.

Dan
Dan Torney <dan.a.torney@boeing.com>
Woodinville, Wa USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 20:00:58 (EDT) 

reaper6 out
JOHN W <REAPER6@AOL.COM>
USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 20:15:34 (EDT) 

John, Steve - Shoot what you are comfortable with and confident in when using weapons. M40 and M24 are pretty close. I vote M24 because I helped design it in 85, I'm confident in it and yes Steve the commitee of Fort Benning got involved deeply. In 85 we wanted a replacement for the M21 within SPECOPs. In 86 we built several prototypes on the M700 short action. We demonstrated them to the powers to be and they bought off. The gun was made long action to accomadate a change to 300 Win Mag. Benning jumped in and decided they wanted some of the action. The commitee of numb nuts began. The box(?) it comes in is the same box for the M1A Abrams Tank Bore Sight Kit. Seems it was already in the system and what the hey. We wanted a somewhat smaller box. The weapon system was designed with durability in mind since we were tasked to go into situations that may preclude an armor even seeing the weapon for 6 months, 1 year, etc. That is why we drove over them with 21/2 ton vehicles, threw the scope down range, etc. Now the poor kid in a conventional line unit is stuck with a weapon that he can not defend himself with, he can't hope to assit his unit in final protective fires, nor can he fire in the area defensive role as a sniper to cause the enemy to deploy early in the attack. Bummer, but hey that's what the widgets at Benning wanted even after we told them it was a bad idea. The only advantage of the M24 over the M40 is the durability. Other than that they are essentially the same weapon, and forget the ridgity arguement. As a sniper you are not shooting known distance ranges with unlimited sighters for the most Xs in Comp. You are laying in the mud, quietly, hoping you haven't forgotten some little thing that will get an unauthorized hole in your hide, to fire a very limited number of shoots at an enemy that WILL have an attitude problem, you may not be prepared for, when you touch off that first round. A hit is a hit and dead is dead no X rings vs 10s. There are NO absolute rights in shooting or equipment, only what works for you and what you are comfortable with and can survive. Cripes I got long winded on that one, sorry guys as I stated in the beginning the M40 vs M24 was dig between Army and Marines didn't mean to get dander up. But you guys can kepp your old flat bottomed M70s, I used them in the 60s and 70s, I trust the 700s, don't get the weird shots after a stalk with them, torsion or no torsion. Hee Hee.

Bill - If you are a two man sniper team with the observer reading winds and trace, yes pack a scope. If you are a shooter shooting on a range at long distances, yes pack a scope to read winds yourself. If you are a hunter packing limited weight, forget the scope.

Torston - Please e-mail me some more info on that scope, we are going to make a purchase in August or Sept, and Unertl will not even be considered after their jam job on us.

One last thing to consider guys, are you building a rifle for sub moa, or a sniper weapon to use in the woods. They are incompatable due to the fragile nature of a good sub moa gun. LET THE FUN BEGIN!!!!!

Russell - did you survive Paris, inquiring minds want to know!

Mr. Bain - you've been quite, what's happening!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, June 22, 1998 at 21:13:58 (EDT) 

I almost bought one, actually it was going to be given to me. I happen to see one at gun show. I quickly changed my mind after one heft.

If you want to feel something similar....., well I'll leave that alone. I am just a wannabe but I know what I like on my cheek and that ain't it.
 

Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
nowhere, but the USA - Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 08:21:48 (EDT) 

Before people buy the Ultimate Sniper stock, there are some things about it that need discussing. For me personally, the thing proved somewhat gimmicky in design. A good example is the hollowed out pistol grip, where, it has been suggested, you can store spare ammo - but they put a bloody small SCREW on the cap so if you are in the field, you may not even be able to access the compartment! The grip is overly large for medium hands, and you can only remove so much material from it due to the hollow nature of the grip. I found the rear elevation screw way too short to prove really useful. It could easily be another two inches long. The elevation screw was simply too short to even touch the ground at times.

Some friends had problems mounting a bipod due to the flat bottom of the fore grip, but that is probably easily overcome. All the grip stippling really rips into the hand, but this is something you can sand down. The flat bottomed buttstock made the use of a sliding bean bag impossible for elevation changes, forcing you to heavily squeeze the bag as opposed to sliding it rearward as you would on a sloped stock. Squeezing a bag to this extent can introduce muscle stress and muzzle wobble. They say to use the sloped fore end to elevate the rifle, but this forces you to move the entire rifle fore or aft, as opposed to simply sliding a bean bag under the buttstock. The Dragonov style stock has it limitations and makes for an unbalanced rifle during carry. Those slots in the fore grip provided for camo work well, but invite the uninformed user to inadvertently wedge material between the stock and the barrel. Then there is the excessive weight and that silly logo on the side that has engendered more than a few snorts from folks at the range. On the other hand, the multiple cheek pieces are a great idea, as well as the bedding block.

I apologize for the length of this thing. Tom is right, you either love or hate this stock. As you might guess, I fell into the second category. I feel there are too many good alternatives out there that are less "sales gimmick" laden. BUT in all fairness, if anyone has one of these stocks and really does like it, and has, by long use, proven all my points invalid, please comment! I present my opinion not to cause argument, but as a search for knowledge and enlightenment. If you have proven to yourself that the stock is great in the field (forget the bench shooting) please sing its praises here in the Roster. I’d really like to hear other opinions from guys who have crawled around with the thing, fired up or down hill, and have picked weeds from under the barrel. Most public commentary has come thus far from the generic gun media (magazines) and they all praise it. But none of them seem to really use the thing as intended and they never negatively comment on anything anyway, at least not in print! They are too afraid of hurting their chances for review material next time round! In the Roster, we want real observations, not pap. So, fire away, what DID you like about the Ultimate Sniper Stock? Let us know!

M24 vs. M40A1…can I have BOTH please???

Scott <at the range>
USA - Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 10:41:54 (EDT) 

My change of "A.O." has left me with precious little time for the site. Too much stuff to do in the new house. I've been working on some articles for publication and assisting Dr. Taylor of Tactical Shooter with some background research (the same stuff I sent you). I am hoping that Sarge and I can make it to a few schools in the Southwest that we can review here at the site.

Other than that, not much.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 14:27:16 (EDT) 

I quit subscribing gun magazines when I first noticed that everything was right from the start.
- "a 3" group at 100 yrs from a factory sporter, thats good accuracy right out of the box": Gun World;
- "1.5" at 100 Yds from a Savage 11O with Federal match fodder - excelent for a tactical rifle": SWAT Magazine
- "great stock" - Tactical Shooter (!!) I can´t forgive them for this...
(Why is it that the stock is allways shown from the side with no logo?!)

I considered the purchase of a McMillan A2 for my 116 and even the new LOD stock, but I must admit that I lost myself with all those "experts" advices and the stock´s low price.
Some of you very kindely shared your thoughts about that stock but USD$160 to USD$500, what could I do?
Yes, you are right, I should have got the A2 instead!
Save and spend it all in a quality product.

Well, the U.S. Stock is now in the hands of the local post office authorities, who are very afraid of it - "oooh! scary stuff."
 

Thank you all, and be carefull.

Pedro Marcos
(Portugal)
Pedro Marcos <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
Portugal - Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 15:48:38 (EDT) 

Some time ago I posted my observations concerning this stock.You are quite correct that this thing has too many sales gimmicks on it (I really detest that logo).

The majority of the shooting I personally do is off of sand bags.On bags,I found this stock very stable with its wide flat bottom.I don't mind the weight because it helps absorb some of my guns recoil.

As far as carrying this stock in the field, FORGET IT !Way too heavy and uneasy to carry because of its size.I would much prefer the standard stock that came equiped on my Sendero or maybe even a McMillan hunter class type stock would be fine for me.

Perhaps those shooters who wouldn't have to be very mobile in the field and were in basically fixed positions would not mind the girth and weight of this stock.

You mentioned about the compartment in the hollow pistol grip design.I simply pulled off the cover and filled the thing with lead shot for even more weight for shooting off the bags.

Scott,have you had any opportunity to try the stock out for yourself or are your observations based on handling the stock only ?If so,what barrell and action were you using ?

Best regards,
Jeff Babineau
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 17:33:16 (EDT) 

ps. love the ball bearing theory

ragin
r.smith <ragin_aardvark@yahoo.com>
twin falls, id USA - Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 19:38:24 (EDT) 

The M40 firing pin goes bad in the field. It becomes a club.

The M40 scope fogs up. It becomes a tent pole.

You get sand inside the M40 reciever. It becomes a boat anchor.

That's the point fella's and unless the USMC get's the point someday, somewhere some 8541 is going to die because the Marines want to give 2112's (guys that build the M40) work and be different than the Army. If you read this site and are a bonafide sniper, police marksman, sharpshooter etc. then you will know where I'm coming from. We are not high power rifle competitors, bench rest shooters etc. The weapon we use will get wet, dirty, sat on, fell on etc. no matter how we try. The M40A1 is a great rifle. But it is not the best. Marines, you deserve the best. Good enough is not good enough!

The Marine RIflemans' creed says that "This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.... I will know its sights, barrel etc.... Well HQ Marine Corps why don't you trust you're snipers enough to take an action out of the stock or to do field repairs? Maybe B4's are just smarter than 8541's. Quantico, join the rest of the world, it's 1998. The days of "glassed" stocks are about gone.

I love the Marine Corps and the sniper program but you guys need to wake up and smell the cordite.

Rick, you got my six? I hear rounds being chambered!

Gooch out.
Gooch <KDGOOCH@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 23:05:53 (EDT) 

ragin
r smith <ragin_aardvark@yahoo.com>
twin falls, Id USA - Tuesday, June 23, 1998 at 23:33:09 (EDT)

On another point. Gooch was trying to point out that the M40 is restricted in what the operator can do to the weapon. The primary worry is the bedding. This means you get crap jammed between barrel and stock, you can't service it. You have to take the weapon back to the armor. With the M24, we have a complete deployment kit with almost every part to include new firing pins. This allows the shooter to service the weapon in the field. Problem is some supply guy (No offense Russ) forgot to add the extractor to the deployment kit. Both weapons shoot damn good when up and I wouldn't want to live on the difference. But given the choice, I'll go M24 system everytime. M40 does, after all, make a good anchor with a broken firing pin!

Run Gooch, I think the heavies are coming out!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 00:07:44 (EDT) 

I was thinking that I could use a triangular arrangement of telescoping vertical pipes (for height adjustment)welded to the baseplate and pin them by drilling several holes clear through perpendicular to their long axes to accept a rod (to lock the height). I could then weld some kind of cross-piece between the vertical pipes to form a horizontal surface against which I could position a small hydraulic car jack to remove any vertical play in the pedestal. The triangular leg arrangement should reduce the tendency to wobble that the single leg version seems to have. Yeah, I could break down and put it on a sturdy workbench but it would be in the way and being in the military I move around quite a bit. I designed this thing to be modular. Its nice to be able to roll the press into a corner when its not in use, too. Does anyone have a better idea before I begin?
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 00:29:18 (EDT) 

I've enjoyed immensely reading your posts, re: M24 vice M40. My regret is that Sniper Country's old friend, R.O. "Dick" Culver, hasn't dropped by the site to comment in support of the M40. (For the newbies, Culver was there with E.J. Land and Carlos Hathcock in '77 at the founding of the U.S.M.C.'s sniper school, and Culver had some involvement with the development of the M40.)

Thanks to you both and all others, current and former snipers, whose presence makes the Duty Roster a fun and educational place on the web for those interested in the profession.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 01:24:58 (EDT) 

Nice to get comments on Choates Ultimate stock. I have read about the Autauga Stock, but I have not seen any evaluations yet. All comments would be nice. About the LOD stock I have not heard anything. Who produces it and what is good about it ?

Does anyone know about the prices of the Autauga or LOD stocks ? Where one could contact the LOD stock producers ?

Thanks
Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 07:13:31 (EDT) 

Once again I did a childish thing, thought I'ld save a few bucks by buying my gun with the cheap stock instead of the laminated stock because I read so many good things about the sniper stock.

Then I ran into this site. Not only do I hear alot of bad about what is available, I hear alot of good about the original laminated stock.

Let me ask for opinions(not about choate I have made up my mind on that one), who make a good one? LOD sounds a little cheesy and Autauga aren't available. The factory stock, laminated, requires alot of wood work to fit most users.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
no place, better than USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 08:50:18 (EDT) 

I'm interested in the new UARS stock from (grey) Gunsite, I think the idea has some really interesting possibilities. But I've only read one review of it so far, which was of very limited use. The only other place I've seen any info on it was in Gunsite's February newsletter. Anyone know if TS, PS, or Sniper Country is planning a *real* review?

DVC,
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, ca USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 12:19:17 (EDT) 

Okay?

But....It appears that his discussion has gotten similiar to the old Monty Python arguement skit. The M40A1 fans can do no more than take an approach of "I like it and that's it!"
Cool...No problem. I'm not trying to ping on anyone. Just trying to get some people to move into the 20th Century! Seriously, the M40A1 is a fine rifle. Just got a bunch of negatives compared to the M24 SWS. And to tell you the truth the M40A1 has 1 or 2 advantages over the M24 rifle. Can't think of one right now, but let me ponder it over a Guiness.

Speaking of Guiness. The National Guard International Combat team is headed off for Ottawa, Canada to compete in the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships at the end of July. Myself and a Sniper from Indiana will once again defend the honor of American snipers at the match. The reason I say this is because none of the other services can find the time to send any teams to the thing. We usually spank them pretty hard. We had an off year last year. I was fourth and the former NCOIC of the course (a Quantico grad) was 6th overall. Won some individual awards but it's the team matches that count right? Year before our four man team which was 1/2 Guard, 1/2 Armanent technologies of New brunswick (armament.com) took the top three places. I tied for 2nd and my partner (yet another Quantico grad) was third.

There are civilian catagories sponsored by the DCRA, (the Canadian NRA) which are cheap to enter. There is a tent city to bivouac in to help keep expenses down. Dates are 24 July - 1 August. Just before Perry. Info can be obtained at my email or the DCRA which is "office@DCRA.ca" or thier web site is "www.dcra.ca". Phone is (613) 829-8281. Awards ceremony is great! Bagpipes and everything!

Andy Webber at Armanent Technologies is part of our 4 man team and can also answer questions at email address bigkahuna@armament.com. Builds an excellent M24 varient too. We're fixing to develop a stock together too.

Its a good chance to hang out with brits, ghurka's, canucks, etc. Drink Canadian beer, talk about stupid gun laws, listen to the funny accents etc.

LOD stock. Good piece of gear. Got two on loan. Unbedded it shoots great. Should it be bedded? I'm not a gunsmith. Got my own opinion. MacMillan makes it for LOD. It is actually the most comfortable stock I've used.

"Ultimate" sniper stock. Inexpensive, simple, not very sexy. Lose the name tag and I'd probably buy one. Pet peev of mine. Call yourself or your product the "ultimate" and you better be. In this case I don't think "they" are. I here "he" doesn't spend much time with the SOTIC guys. Why is that? Choate is a great company. They are right up the road and they are very customer oriented. Gave a friend of mine an SKS stock one time.

Sorry for the book webmasters.

Gooch out. (Finally)
Gooch <KDGOOCH@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 20:25:50 (EDT) 

I'm ecstatic to hear that you are hooked up with Andy Webber! I am a 100%, dyed-in-the-wool Andy Webber and Armament Technology fan. He built my rifle (reviewed by Scott Powers on this site) for me, and then took the time at the 1997 SHOT Show to have lunch with me. Met him and his wife, knocked back a few beers, talked about stupid gun laws and shooting precision rifles. I think that he and his wife are tops.

As for my AT1 M24, currently Rod Ryan has it and I may never see it again!!! I lent it to him when the '24 that Andy is building for Rod didn't get to Storm Mountain in time for a gun magazine writer's visit to review the system. (Andy doesn't rush production; he gets it right. That's the only kind of custom gun to buy or to own.)

Best of luck to you all. My best to Andy as well.

Bain
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 23:20:29 (EDT) 

Should any of you think I was busting Rod Ryan's chops, let me be clear: I wasn't. Rod is a hell of a great guy and an outstanding instructor. I'd give him the shirt off my back and the last dollar in my wallet, I think that highly of him. And no, neither he nor Andy pay me anything to say this stuff, nor do I get anything in return. I say it because it's true and because I know that both of these guys are too modest to talk about themselves.

If you are thinking of buying a custom system, talk to Andy Webber. If you are thinking of taking training, talk to Rod Ryan.

Bain out. (For a while.)

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Alas, Anon USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 23:25:22 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain, you're right about Andy Webber. I was talking to him on Monday and suggested that he frequent this page. Said he is pretty busy but that he would try to drop in and lend an air of intelligence to an otherwise unruley lot! He is that rare blend of shooter, engineer, lobster fisherman and beer drinker that is hard to come by.

Folks if you want a solid gun. Give him a shot. I wish he would quit shooting them at the match up there. Hard to beat. Maybe if I feed him enough Guinness.......
Gooch <KDGOOCH@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 23:55:17 (EDT) 

To Paul: If I get a chance (the food), I will. Thanks.

To Joe R.: An invitation???!!! Hunting???!!! Wow!!! (… fumbles through phone book, looking for cheap airlines… blast it all!… there aren't any!!!…) Well, anyway, if I can ever get out there, I'll take you up on it!

To Terry: Thanks for the geography lesson. I appreciate it.

To Rick: Thanks, pal, for the information on the issuing of spotting scopes with M24 SWS packages.

To Robert Smith: Welcome aboard. Semper Fidelis.

To John W.: Thanks for your comments, greatly appreciated. Oh… by the way… the 'shift' keys are located at 8 o'clock from the 'A' key, and at 4 o'clock from the apostrophe ( ' ) key. J

To John W. (again): I see you already went to lower case letters. I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU FOR DOING THAT, JOHN. Thanks.

To Rick (again): Yes, I survived Paris. Barely. Well, actually, Paris itself wasn't bad. (Five beautiful women to every ONE beautiful woman in Germany. Go figure. Same continent. I'm still trying to understand it.) Anyway, the REAL problem was… the bus. See, I'm 6'5"… and they @#%!# seat in front of me was jammed into my knees all the !#%$^##^% way to Paris and back. Just like my #!^#^@#^!&$ plane ride over here from Detroit to Frankfurt! I think God, for all the widely publicized rumors, is only 5'2" tall. Created us in His own image,eh? Uh huh. So that means that "I" have to suffer??? Short houses, small cars, tiny airliners, midget seating in tour buses… I'm always remembering one of my favorite songs from the late '70s (I think): "Short people got no reason to live." I love that song. Think it's funny, eh? Okay, all you pygmy midgets under 5'8", try spending about a week or so with everything in front of you, when you're sitting, CRAMMED UP AGAINST YOUR !#%# KNEES for SEVERAL hours a day! Then, you STILL won't be close to the years and years of such treatment I've had to put up with. And, I'm the only guy I know who doesn't have any complaints about the size of John Plaster's Choate stock! Anyway, Rick, Paris was "okay." $10 (U.S. converted) for a @#%!@ stick of bread and a cup of hot chocolate for breakfast. If you want to visit Paris, either be rich or don't eat. Oh, and I'd love to go into the construction of their toilet facilities… but there's not enough room here. And the biggest disappointment? No guns. No gun shops. Matter of fact… historically speaking, did the French EVER do ANYTHING worthwhile in regard to firearms??? Super-neat French sniper rifles? High-speed, low-drag pistols??? As a matter of fact, except for French wine, French women (95% of which are truly gorgeous, and the rest are significantly better than "average"), and the Eiffel Tower… what the heck is France known for? Did they do ANYTHING? Took a "tour" (read, "profit deal arrangement between the museum and the tour company") through a French perfume museum. Cute little gal, speaking a French version of something that mildly resembled English (I don't speak French), told us all about how the French make perfume. I had a hard time paying attention to her presentation, though, because she had these really SEVERE "Brooke Shields" eyebrows that needed intense plucking! I have no idea what she said about perfume, because I was letting my mind drift to thoughts of barber shears, tweezers, and depilatory creams. Didn't buy any perfumes, either. Was going to pick up some little "sample-sized" bottles for the ladies in my office at work. Like bloody Hell I was!!! $250 Francs per teeny-tiny bottle???!!! BITE ME! And did I mention I didn't see one @#!%@ gun shop in Paris???

To Phil, about your XL 650: I have one and love it. I've had nothing but praise for it and any problems were minor and easily remedied. Give Dillon a call. Also post your question to rec.guns - you'll get a lot of good feedback. When I have more time, I'll read through your problem and send you an E-mail. I just don't have time at the moment, since I'm out-processing today.

To Tom Scott: I rank favorite stocks like this. First, "GOOD" synthetic (I won't use a Kevlar-based stock). Second, laminated wood. I love laminated stocks, not just for their strength but for their beauty. After that, though, I always get the bedding done, before anything else.

To Travis Barker: You made my day! Thanks for your kind words.

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper3O8@yahoo.com>
Wiesbaden, Germany - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 06:31:02 (EDT) 

Commenting on the AT1-M24. Folks, if you can afford one, and want a sniper rifle based on the M700 action, I can whole heartedly recommend Andy Webber's work of art. Beleive me when I say it is worth the wait. One of the hardest things I had to do was give the rifle back to Mr. Bain at the close of our September visit to SMTC for the two week sniper course. Through it all, that rifle never let me down. It never changed zero, it never failed to feed or fire, and it never failed to shoot more accurately than I could. I was fond of saying "christ, I could sneeze and hit the long range target with this thing!" No joke. It inspired that uch confidence.

Autauga Stock: I got to play with one at the Hathcock Charity Sniper Competition. It is a very high quality stock. I could agree that it seemed short, but this can be rectified by adding spacers, as can most stocks nowadays. It has a very sold feel with out being overweight. Ergonomically, it fit me well. I can not verify a price but it will be somewhere between $325 and $450. Sorry I can not be more specific on that. Maybe they will lend us one to review for you. For more information, contact Autauga Arms at 1-800-262-9563.

We also got a look at Autauga's new tapered one piece scope base. If you are familiar with NEAR manufacturing's base, it is similiar to this - just picture a Mk4 base with a solid taper. Very strong. With it, you should be able to zero beyond 1200 yards with a .308. When Sgt. Gimmellie gets back from vacation, I will ask him to comment on the base as he won it during the event.

More later
scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 09:29:59 (EDT) 

Bill: Thanks for the website address for LOD-stocks.

I have been wondering what use does a rifle dragbag really have. I know that at least Creedmore, Eagle, Blackhawk and London Bridge Trading produce and sell good quality dragbags for sniper usage.

My question is, what purpose do these bags actually try to fullfil ? As we have trained, one has the rifle in hand(s) and a day back on your back. Everything should be alright as all needed tools are with you or your partner, including food. Maybe one could use a scope cover as an extra precaution, but I feel that the big and heavy dragbag is a solution to a minor or nonexistent problem. Also crawling with such a eavy bag seems to be unnecessary tiresome.

Have I missed something or why do I have a hard time in understanding this "bag-your-rilfe-in-a-heavy-and-cumbersome-package"-approach to carrying a rifle in the woods.

I would like to hear comments on this and this is not, I repeat, this is not a flaming bite :-) I´m just curious.

BTW which company´s bags do you think are the best ? Which one is the best value ? (Creedmore costs 40% less than the rest.

Regards
Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 10:07:39 (EDT) 

Bryan <canjumper@hotmail.com>
Ont Canada - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 10:56:54 (EDT) 

Must disagree with you over the German women vs. French women debate. German women are better looking (I say this having spent much time in Germany.) I have seen a number of French women, though I have never been to France (I refuse to go to that country for a number of reasons, not the least of which are its perfidy in the Second World War and its refusal to allow American planes on their way to Libya to overfly the country in the 1980's.) and I find that they are rude, unattractive, and infrequent bathers. Why do you think the French are so well known for perfume? German women, OTOH, well. . . if you've been there two weeks and haven't found out on your own, I'm not going to tell you.

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 12:36:40 (EDT) 

As an aside, if you do not have a security element backing you up I suppose you could sling the drag back and carry a carbine while enroute.

German women vs. French women vs. Estonian vs. Carpathian vs. sicilian vs. M24 vs. M40a1....oh yeah, now we are getting into the nitty gritty aren't we! To sum it up...I want one each. Call me a glutton for punishment!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 13:38:04 (EDT) 

I would like to know if any of you out there in SC happen to know what base and scope rings are on the UARS on the cover of GUNS and WEAPONS for LAW ENFORCEMENT? I've never seen those before, but they "look" to be of good quality.

Just curious if any body can place a brandname and source to find out info about them.....

I called Gunsite Custom Shop to inquire, but no one in the shop knew...but they also commented that the UARS would not be manufactured to fit the M70 pre 64 action because the pre 64 was no longer in production......hmmm.

Just to clarify...am I reading that the UARS will be made for the LA Winchester?

Scott.....Thanks for the info on the VXIII Long Range M3...I order mine tonight at the gun store I frequent here in Panama City. it was about 30 bucks more than the Spartan one but it pays to do bsiness with the guys here from time to time. Lord knows I ask'em tons of questions.

Does anyone have sugestions as to the best Base/rings combo for this scope on the M70 Pre'64 action?

Good quality but moderate price( Mk 4's are 225!) not 20 dollars cheapies either. Reasonable.

Later all!
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, "Burning Down the House" FL. USA - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 17:15:02 (EDT) 

Russell - And just how many Cola Beers did you say you had? Or was it Sprite?

Hexa - Drag Bags? Let me count the ways that guys spend money on items they don't need. On second thought, Scott would scrub the message due to bandwidth. In my opionion, and this is mine, which does not mean it is correct, drag bags are totally unecessary. Many students have been popped due to drag bag signature during stalks. Control over the weapon is paramont during a stalk, and many lose that control because it is "in the bag". Another problem, you alluded to in your post, is the size and bulk of the drag bag. Imagine, radio, secure com box, observation scope, binos, 7 days rations, sleeping gear, combat kit, water, G suit, not to mention the 70 pounds of high speed "light weight" gear, and your rucksack runneth over. You're now tired and you just got to your ORP. You recon your site and you want rest but you must stalk into your FFP. You have 95 degree weather, you're tired, and your blankity blank bag keeps catching on every twig, weed, and branch creating a waving hand saying "look at me, I'm over here". Then again, the Marines love them. But of course they use the fragile M40.

Cover me Gooch, I think I'm in a mine field!
 

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 20:52:56 (EDT) 

Camp Perry got zapped by a tornado last night (24 June). We got a call from a CMP (old DCM) staffer and said that 2 rows of bunk houses got wasted, the CMP and the NRA buildings are gone, the chow hall had the roof tore off and the ranges sustained a lot of damage. The whole place is suposed to be a wreck! No word on the status of the Nationals yet. Don't look good.

I hate the term "drag bag". One does not drag the essence of you purpose on the battlefield around on a piece of 550 cord! I've seen students walk and drag their rifle before. They were'nt walking after I got through with them. "Xring" has it right about the use of one.

We started using them in thier present form in the USMC around 1984. Before that we usaully cut off a BDU trouser leg and improvised. But all we used them for was to protect the gun. Around 1984 SSgt Pshak (Quantico) worked with Eagle and designed the bag that Eagle is selling now. I don't think SOTIC lets students use a full blown commercial "drag bag" and Benning makes you build your own. We issue Eagle bags at the Guard School. They do protect the gun but you need to learn to stalk without one. We teach to take the rifle out of the bag at the ORP and make the final stalk with the gun out in case you get the opportunity for a quick shot. I like the Eagle bag if you need one that big. Ours are 5 years old and still kicking. My partner here in Little Rock had one made down at the tent repair facility and I love it. Visualize a reiforced standard rifle soft case and thats about it.

Hey! Let's get a bunch of you guys up to Canada. I'll put a summary of the match on this thing tommorrow so you guys can prepare.

I'm out of here.
Gooch <KDGOOCH@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 21:02:11 (EDT) 

ALLAIN
TODD ALLAIN (CPL. USMC) RET. <tallain@tiger.lsu.edu>
USA - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 21:22:29 (EDT) 

I don't know what you have online to interest me, but I'll
check in ocassionally.
George H.Williams <geedubblu@aol.com>
Joppa, MD USA - Friday, June 26, 1998 at 00:42:15 (EDT) 

Ammo loading tip I discussed with Russ last night and thought you would be interested.

I fill my powder with a RCBS Powder measure or on a Dillon 550 and drop the charges into the cases without weighing them.
I belive that the tolerance of a normal powder scale is just as high as the diffrences in the actual weights and that you may trickle powder on top of a perfect load.
Also I load the rounds all in one continuous line 1-100 and put them in my Ammo box in the same sequence 1-100 and start to shoot with no. 1 and then up the line to number 100. This way if their should be a measurable diffrence between say round 3 and 76 it doesn´t really matter since you aproach it in 1/100 step´s. I found this to be much more accurate and a lot less time consuming than weighing each charge. And more time on the Range always means better shooting.

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, June 26, 1998 at 06:32:57 (EDT)