May 1998
To Tim: The primary complaints I've heard about the Springfield scope had to do with clarity and repeatability. Current dealer cost on the B&L 4000 Elite 6-24x is $281 without shipping, and the scope does not include a BDC.
To Torsten: Thanks for the information. I sent you an E-mail with my requirements. I'd prefer to keep this matter offline.
To Bill: Fifteen grains of Red Dot in a .45 ACP case? You're an evil man, Bill, you're an evil man.
To Ned: Wow! I greatly enjoyed your post on the temperature-related variations. VERY interesting reading! Thanks!!!
To Ron: Double wow! Another great piece on the subject of rings, scopes, and dissimilar metals. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Again, to Bill: Shucks, Bill. Praise is always nice, and tremendously appreciated. Thanks for the kind words. All I can say is, we try to bring you the best of the best. If our visitors benefit, then we've done our jobs.
To "Manhattan Matt:" ArmaLite has a problem with vendors supplying
parts on time and, due to the success of the product line, backorders are
currently a way of life. (I recently posted a note from Mark Westrom on
this subject; it's on the ArmaLite website.) And don't worry, Matt, I think
we ALL check out the Emporium from time to time.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 01:22:30 (EDT)
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 02:11:59 (EDT)
I'm new here, but I spent about 2 1/2 years shooting IPSC and the last several years shooting non-competition pistol. I have a Glock 20 in 10mm. I have had only a few stoppages in this weapon, all failures to eject on the last round of the mag, so I think the factory glock mags that came with my particulat weapon have some sort of problem. Only about 1,000 rounds with the M20 (expensive even to handload), so I'll admit my Glock experience is limited.
As for the venerable 1911, let's say that it is either fragile or a real workhorse, depending on who you talk to. My IPSC custom gun is fragile, hates .45 hollowpoints with big holes in them because the feed angle from the magazine to the chamber is excessive, has broken several parts in the middle of an IPSC match (all custom accesories no less!!), and had at one time a tendency to throw the front sight blade (read custom) off of the slide every 1,200 rounds or so. It is also with out a doubt the most accurate handgun I have ever fired. Before it went to the doctor to become a racegun, it never broke, though it did like to jam at inopportune times.
My H&K is the darling of my handgun arsenal. I have used this weapon for IPSC matches on occasion (see last paragraph). I can say that accuracy is outstanding out of the box. Since I had this gun in my competitive days, when I would shoot upwards of 500 rounds in a single session without cleaning, I gave this weapon a real endurance test on several occasions. With over 7,000 rounds through it, it has NEVER EVER jammed, misfired, misfed, or even hiccuped. It is the only handgun I can trust my life to. And did I mention that my USP will devour any .45 hollowpoint made by man without prejudice?
To Matt: I have not regularly seen .40 S&W 1911's in use for IPSC, but I did see a few and I'll tell you what I know. Most were single stack 1911's in .40 cal, good double stack frames are usually in .45 ACP or .38 Super and they carry a hefty price tag as well so most shooters tend to opt for the more popular calibers when paying $900+ for a frame. They too suffered from the feed ramp angle problem my .45 ACP 1911 does. Misfeeds, while not entirely common, did tend to frustrate the .40 cal shooters pretty bad. Since most target and match .40 S&W loadings use hollowpoint or a trunicated cone bullet, the feedramp angle was just a nagging problem that was hard to solve. If you don't believe me try this; take a 1911 and a USP and lock the slide back. Now being VERY careful and pointing the weapon in a safe direction, slide in a mag loaded with one round. Observe the angle the cartridge must travel to get to the chamber. The USP is almost a straight line. Accuracy was acceptable in the .40's and could be improved quite easily if it wasn't up to snuff.
Sorry for such a long post everyone, just trying to help out where I can. My experience is almost all hadguns, so I'll chime in where I can.
Great site! Keep up the good work everyone!
Ralph Horne <m1911@earthlink.net>
Houston, Texas USA - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 04:25:33 (EDT)
A Norwegian gunmagazine, VapenJournalen, got their hands on a mysterious
litte russian pistol called PSM. It about the size of a PPK but slimmer.
This pistol in cal. 5.45X18 was developed to kill people wearing bodyarmour.
The people at VJ wanted to test the PSM to see if the roumours were true.
While they were at it they tested regular handgunrounds as well.
The bullets were fired at layers of kevlar from bodyarmour. The results
are going to be depressing for some...
Penetration, nr. of kevlarlayers penetrated:
.22LR: 0 layers
.32ACP Silvertip: 0 "
.32ACP GECO FMJ: 0 "
.38spec. +P FMJ: 0 "
.45ACP 230Fed HS: 0 "
.45ACP 230 FMJ: 0 "
.44mag Norma240HP:6 "
.44mag Fed HS: 7 "
9mm FFV NATO: 15 "
9mm Swe.M39B FMJ:65 "
5.54X18PSM: 49 "
The swedish 9mm M39B has a very heavy steeljacket that does not deform on impact. This round is Second Chance's nightmare and they know it. The bullet on the PSM has a squared off steelcore inside the jacket that cuts trough the kevlarfibers.
In a combatsituation you can't afford to use a round that will not penetrate bodyarmour.
If you are up against a modern army maybe a single shot TC Contender in .223 is better at self defence than any handgun in .45ACP :-)
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 07:09:42 (EDT)
Anyway, to Ralph and Bill:
I haven't had the problems you describe with .45s WITH A STOCK GUN, or one modified for real-world carry. I've had problems with my competition guns, but that's because a gun is always going to get more picky as you reduce the tolerances. I've never had a problem I wasn't able to resolve, though, through paying attention to my handloads, polishing the feed ramp, whatever. Gun generally runs like a champ, as long as I'm not so dumb as to go into a match with ammo I haven't fired through it before.
I have a Lightweight Commander that's almost entirely stock, except for a bit of trigger work and a polished feed ramp. This is my carry .45. I haven't ever had a problem with it, shooting any type of ammo that I've tried. But of course, hollowpoints DO increase the liklihood of a feed problem, and lowering the angle at which the rounds feed is certainly a good idea--I'm just not convinced that stock .45s have a big problem feeding. Still, I don't claim to have shot it as much as my competition gun, so I may be missing something. I'll tell you what: I'll scrape up a little money, go buy a variety of hollowpoints, and do some tests, then report back to the Duty Roster with my results. Yes, my feed ramp IS polished, so maybe this won't give us a fair look at performance out-of-the-box, but my feeling on that is that any idiot with a Dremel tool (for example, ME!) can polish his own feed ramp, so I don't see it as a big issue. If need be, I can probably borrow a truly STOCK Springfield full-size from a buddy and test that, instead, or even compare the two.
TorF:
Well, you're right about the penetration issue. Velocity is nearly everything when you're talking penetration, and hot, smaller-caliber FMJs will generally do a better job of it. But still, there are plenty of vests out there that will stop almost any handgun round. If you're worried about armor, I'd say you need to either carry a rifle or be prepared to shoot for the head, and be able to do so effectively.
I don't think there are any armies out there that are issuing true body armor to the average soldier, yet. It's still all flak jackets, which aren't very effective against much, including most pistol rounds. Anyway, your average soldier is carrying a rifle capable of penetrating any vest that isn't too heavy and awkward for general wear by grunts. So from a military perspective, right now, the pistol is an acceptable backup weapon, or primary for certain individuals. ALTHOUGH....many officers I've known, who rated only an M9 according to the T/O, had an M16 in the armory, already identified as "theirs" if the s**t ever hit the fan.
To Matt (par8hed): I don't know of a way to improve the barrel-slide
fit of your Beretta, although I must say I've never had trouble shooting
mine accurately (when it was working!) at 25 yards. I have managed a 388
on the MC pistol qual course (400 poss pts--40 rds, 15 of which are at
25 yards), and typically drop around ten points at the 25--but in each
instance, I can always identify something I did wrong to throw the shot.
If I apply the fundamentals properly, I have no trouble keeping them in
the 10-ring with the M9. It's not equal to my competition .45 by any means,
but it shoots plenty well enough for its intended purpose. So make sure
it's the gun and not you (no offense---it could very well be the gun!).
Beyond that, I can't offer you much advice, but maybe someone else out
there knows something.
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 12:49:54 (EDT)
Just so you know on which side of the fence my 1911 sits on the polished feed ramp thing. I went a totally different route other than polishing the feed ramp. I had the entire frame stripped and coated with a grey, self-lubricating epoxy-teflon. It's a super smooth finish even on the feed ramp after 1,000's and 1,000's of rounds. I think it produces the same effects as a good polishing with a dremmel [and I have used a Dremmel on another weapon as well. So yes, I'm living proof that any dummy can do it! ;)] It also gives the weapon a nice two-tone look.
It also has the hardest time feeding Sierra hollowpoints like those
used in Cor-Bon ammo and Speer Gold Dots. Both of these are my preference
in hollowpoints, Talons notwithstanding. My gun in particular had a nasty
habit of ramming a factory Cor-Bon bullet into the case upon feeding. Not
that this would normally bother me a whole lot, I just don't want to increase
the seating depth on an already +P round. Hehehe, sure wouldn't want to
be known as "Crazy 1911 Slide-Stuck-In-Face Man"
Ralph Horne <m1911@earlink.net>
Houston, Texas USA - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 13:10:12 (EDT)
The kevlar VJ used in the test came from the producer of norwegian flakjackets. These flakjackets has 18 layers of kevlar.
A friend told me of a test were a dummy was dressed up in a complete
winter uniform, webgear, mag.pouches, maps, rucksack, etc. but no bodyarmour
or flakjacket. The dummy was soaking wet from heavy rain. Then they fired
30 rounds 9mm FMJ from a H&K MP5 at the dummy from a range of 100m.
Only 50% of the bullets penetrated in the chestarea. Goodbye MP5, hello
G3.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 16:59:06 (EDT)
I thought a bit more about your M9's problem with consistently locking up in the same position (i.e., it won't!), and I think I have a solution for you. But it's completely experimental, as far as I know (unless I'm reinventing the wheel, here) and not thought out in great detail. I'd still suggest a different gun. But if you really MUST use the Beretta, what about this idea:
Have a gunsmith thread the last, oh, maybe 1/2"-3/4" of your barrel (exterior), and machine you a conical piece that will screw onto the threads he cut, surrounding the barrel. He'd need to do a bit of measurin' and figgerin' first, but if he did it right, he could grind down the attachment and/or slide, fit them to one another perfectly, so it'd be like a removable flare. Voila! Consistent lockup, no bushing required. A set screw and some Lok-Tite to hold it in place---it'd have to be removable, or you'd never be able to take the barrel out of your pistol again! Again, this isn't a simple approach, and I may have over-thought it.... someone may have a much better, simpler idea. You'd need to find a competent gunsmith, unless you're handy with a lathe and have the tools and skills yourself. But I'm pretty sure this could be done.
If you try this, let me know how it goes!
Matt
Matt <m45acp>
GA USA - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 17:14:45 (EDT)
How 'bout sending me one o' them there Norwegian flak jackets!? I'd trust it a lot more than the one I wore for three years. (Now I'm actually issued a no-kidding vest, although not the best brand or protection level.)
The MP5 expirement is interesting, but I wonder about some of the details. I don't know. It's certainly surprising. On the other hand, 100m is not the range at which you want to be engaging targets with pistol rounds if you can help it, is it? I mean, all things being equal, who the hell WOULDN'T want a G3 over an MP5?!?!
You know, on the bodyarmor issue, it's kinda funny. Right now, certain elements of the USMC are switching from MP5s to M4 carbines because of concerns about vests, and not having enough "oomph" to reach out and touch someone. My biggest concerns with this are: will it be controllable for bursts (the MP5 sure is!), and will the noise cause problems? Having a few rounds of 5.56 fired from a short barrel, a few inches (or even feet) from your head, in an enclosure and without hearing protection, could be a potentially debilitating experience, exactly when you can't afford to be debilitated!
To Bill: I basically agree with you on the M9/92--it's always been accurate enough for me. I only made my suggestion because "Manhattan" Matt seems to think that inconsistent lockup is causing him accuracy problems. I guess that it could be doing so, but like I said, they've always shot well enough for me. On the other hand, I have my doubts about whether a good, customized .45 can't be made to shoot that well---I mean, I feel pretty sure that it could. The Beretta is accurate enough, but I don't think of it as anything exceptional in the accuracy department. I'm going to the range tomorrow, so I'll try a few things along these lines.
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 18:58:37 (EDT)
Several years ago my father introduced me to a Wehrmacht Eastern Front veteran who had been a platoon leader and carried an MP40. During one particular battle his men were defending a village. Out of the snow loomed dozens of Russian infantry shouting OORAH and stomping their way towards them. He aimed and fired at one. The bullets hit and the Russian fell over. A few minutes later the guy stood up and started running again. More 9mm SMG and down he goes. The third time he stood up, the platoon leader had a rifleman shoot that particular Russian.
After the attack was over they crept out to look at this fellow. He was dead. Under his coat he was wearing three sheep skin fleece vests and embedded in it were several 9mm bullets.
So lots of clothes can defeat bullets just as effectively as kevlar body armour. Not to mention cold weather reduces bullet velocity.
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 21:31:06 (EDT)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 02, 1998 at 00:55:03 (EDT)
I have a friend in South Afrika that makes a copy of the French THV
Bullet in 9 and .45.
The 9, when loaded up to the hilt (including the cavern inside the
bullet) with red dot leaves a High Power at 930 M/sek = 2800 ft/sek.
And yes it will penetrate BOTH sides of a class III A vest at 25 Meters.
Torsten
Torsten <infantrie@hotmail.com>
Germany - Saturday, May 02, 1998 at 06:20:36 (EDT)
To Ned and Bill: I hold the NBC television network accountable for
the upsurge in headshot-related deaths of law enforcement officers. If
you're in the body armor business, Ned, you'll know why. I think some level
of self-restraint is best applied in discussions of body armor construction.
I'm not opposed to using my editorial "pen" to remove certain things that
are posted to the Roster, but I hesitate to do so unless it's apparent
that things have gotten out of hand. For the most part, I am pleased with
the level of intelligence and contribution that is in evidence here, and
that's what we want. The majority of visitors to this site are individuals
who have invested a serious outlay of cash in their firearms and accessories,
and are looking for ways to get their money's worth out of their gear.
Granted, most gang-bangers can't spell, don't know what a URL is, and probably
wouldn't understand a discussion of sear engagement if it was broken down
to a single-syllable-words-only oration just for their benefit; still,
I feel we're relatively "safe" in discussing most things as they relate
to our, well, interest.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, May 02, 1998 at 12:36:02 (EDT)
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Saturday, May 02, 1998 at 12:51:57 (EDT)
Send me an EMail with your full name and address. I've got one of your country men in my course and have talked to him about your requests. He will carry the info you wanted back with him to Germany at the end of the course.
He's doing real good in the course right now and I do not see any problems with him finishing the course. I do believe he was a little worried on the exam Friday, but he ddi well.
Rick
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, May 02, 1998 at 16:20:49 (EDT)
I believe you are correct in your estimation of Snipercountry's clientele....but you never know who might stumble in here.
Comment on the Norinco pistols-- I've heard that they are very good
for the money, where most Chinese products are of low quality. But as firearm
enthusiasts, we are generally much more freedom-concious than most, so
we should keep in mind that any product made in China has as one of it's
ingredients the blood of political prisoners and an unfree populace. I
don't want to come off too pompous here, but they are shameless purveyors
of strategic weaponry to whatever crackpot dictator with a Napoleonic complex
can buy them.
Ned C. <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers, MI USA - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 00:31:28 (EDT)
Bravo! You're right on the mark w/your comments on buying Chinese. In allowing trade with the PRC, our government has gone soft in the head and weak in the knees, and bowed to pressure from mega-corporations who see China as a hugely profitable market and nothing more. This doesn't mean we ought to put our own money in the pockets of the world's greatest remaining communist regime! Remember guys, people always get soft and complacent during periods of prolonged peace, and often don't stop to think about the potential consequences of their actions when things get ugly again. We may end up at war with these folks someday, and I'd rather fight starving, poorly-equipped hordes of Chinamen, versus well-fed, well-equipped hordes of Chinamen. Our dollars aren't going to hard-working, independent entrepeneurs in a democratic nation, when we buy a Norinco---they're going into the pockets of one of the "dirtiest" governments out there!
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 01:41:53 (EDT)
thank you for the help, an E mail is in your box.
I look forward to talk to the fellow German once he is back here.
Is he by chance form the Infantry school in Hammelburg? I am due to visit
there in June and upon my last visit I heard that they send some Instructors
to the US.
If I can do something for you let me know.
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 07:23:22 (EDT)
I saw a special on the discovery channel over the easter holidays.
It showed a Seal shooting at a Tank turret with an m-88 using raufoss ammo.
Is there anyone out there that has a m 88 that would like to compare
notes ?
I have a 20 x MkIV Leupold on it with what is to be a Glass etched reticle ??? Leupold told me these would hold up better on a .50 with a muzzle break as the back and forth of the recoil and brake pull could break a wire reticle ??
Any input ?
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 08:44:34 (EDT)
Torsten
Germany - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 08:46:12 (EDT)
To Torsten: My trip to Germany is a "go." I'm at my Reserve unit this weekend (thank God we have Internet access) and I received my orders yesterday. So, it's official, my tour of duty will cover 13-27 Jun 98.
On the matter of politics: Nothing surprises me anymore, since certain people occupy the White House. I just left an ODP (officer development program) meeting, and one of the things discussed was "money." The military, as a whole, has gone far beyond "doing more with less" and has been, for some time now, "doing less with less." While I'll certainly go wherever the policies of my government require, and "do the deed" as needed, I deplore -- as an American soldier -- the way our military has been treated. That the Chinese, and other countries, seem to thrive on the misery and misfortune of so many other countries, is upsetting. However, this country's ability to keep certain "bully" countries "in check" seems to be waning on a daily basis is even MORE upsetting. I have a little over 16 years in the Army as I type this, and I've made no secret of the fact that I intend to retire when I get my 20-year letter. Why? Because this is NOT the Army I joined in 1982. Whether we agree with them or not, the Chinese (and some other countries) seem to have maintained a sense of importance about what it means to have a strong military. As I'll never be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, I don't see that I stand much chance of changing policy nor influencing national focus. Please don't mistake my concerns as being "militant." Rather, try to understand that my frustration is manifested from a deep feeling of compassion for the guy in the trench, the warrant officer in the motor pool, the company commander, and so many others who are currently seeing the results of funding cutbacks… inadequate training. Don't underestimate the Chinese, the Koreans, and others. We don't have a say in what other countries invest into their military forces, but we sure have a say in what happens to ours. Write letters, call congressmen, and support intelligent defense spending.
Wow. I guess I'm a bit touchy on "world matters." I suppose I'd be happier if I all I did was drink beer and watch reruns of I Love Lucy.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 10:53:31 (EDT)
It strikes me rather ironic that you would feel necessary to condemn the purchase of Chinese goods based on your bias against their government.
In a past Roster posting you commented on how you love H&K weapons.Using the same logic you present, does this mean that you support Germany,a country who brought us such wonderful things such as Nazi facism and over 6 million slaughtered Jews ?
Like other readers, I also condemn China for its human rights abuses and its oppressive government.
My comments aren't meant to offend anyone,including you Matt,but
I think we should leave politics out of discussing the merits of the weapons
brought into this forum.
Jeff B <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 13:52:35 (EDT)
Jeff, I think you've mistaken the intent of my post. I'm not exactly condemning you for buying a Norinco, just pointing out that there are things to keep in mind when you buy foreign goods.
As for my feelings about German, Austrian, etc., weapons---well, if this were 1938, YES, I'd have a problem with buying their stuff. But this is 1998, those countries, although imperfect like any other country (including the U.S!) aren't fascist any more, and it's been over 50 years since anyone was gassing Jews. Although their governments aren't exactly identical to the U.S.'s, they're close enough for me to feel comfortable with, and I don't suspect them of institutionalized, government-sponsored human rights abuses on a massive scale, as I do the PRC. So I do, in fact, see a pretty clear distinction between the two situations. I also retain enough of that old Evil Empire paranoia to believe that when you have a country that's as large, aggressive, and ambitious as the PRC, whose area of interests overlaps our own, and its ideological foundations are so vastly different from our own, then you've got a situation which can never be completely stable. As long as we maintain these differences with the PRC, I think we'd be fools not to view them as a potential enemy, and approach dealings with them cautiously. I guarantee you that, although the White House probably doesn't let anyone talk about it, there a buncha boys in the Pentagon and in the Pacific who spend time thinking about just that.
As far as leaving politics out of the site, well, I know it's not intended to be primarily a site for political discussion, and you'll note that of everything I've posted in the past several days, there are only two (including this one) posts with a political bent. Would have only been one, but you responded to the first one! Anyway, let's admit that our shooting interests are intrinsically tied to politics---for those of us who aren't military, the question of whether we will be able to continue shooting at all is very, very political! So I don't think that occasional mention of things political is necessarily out of order. However, if I'm wrong, I'm sure our esteemed moderators will take appropriate action.
By the way----no offense taken. From my perspective, opposing viewpoints
are always welcome, if presented rationally.
Matt
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 14:26:19 (EDT)
13-27 Jun 98, I´ll check our reserve scedule for that time frame. When can you give me a firm date for a visit? The SIG tour could be on a Friday, but before noon as they close at 13:00 for the weekend.
If you are interested I could also get you a tour of a KRK (Crisis Reaction Forces) Anti aircraft artillery Unit. They are using the Leopard one based Gepard with twin 35 mm Oerlikons. Also a quick session with a Strela ( East German/ Russian Stinger copy ) could be arranged. They have the new H&K G 36 and P8 (USP)as well.
For the Bundeswehr visit you would need to bring your Military ID with you. Civilian Clothes are OK unless we go shooting.
I´ll keep you posted.
Torsten
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 14:52:04 (EDT)
To Torsten: I probably won't know my "free" days until I'm on the ground. I always have my military ID with me, whether I'm on duty or not, but when I'm on duty I also have my dog tags and a copy of my orders on my person. Any "gun stuff" you can come up with will be fine with me.
To Matt: Yes, an occasional foray into political matters is probably
a cleansing thing on occasion, but I hope we'll all "generally" concentrate
on sniper weapons and accessories. We have a good bunch of folks contributing
a lot of good material here. For the most part, this Roster is frequented
by professionals or professional-minded individuals.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 15:24:53 (EDT)
Torsten-- I saw some Roufoss rounds fired last summer. From everything
I have read, they are supposed to really bring the .50 up to date. They
made a good show upon impact (nice flash, unusual puff of yellow smoke)
on a 1" thick steel plate....I imagine that they should work well on vehicle
fuel tanks that happen into the crosshairs. They come from your neck of
the woods, don't they? Is it PETN or RDX in there, I don't remember---
but my biggest question, any idea how they group?
Ned C. <michigun@net-link.net>
Three Rivers , MI USA - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 21:44:30 (EDT)
Also, I had a chance to shoot the much-ballyhooed USP today. Guy I ran into at the range had one (full-size) in .45, and when I started asking questions, he offered to let me shoot it. Here's my review:
Don't like the single action trigger as well as my .45 (I like a
REAL crisp trigger and very, very little overtravel--the ol' "breaking
glass" pull), but for a factory gun it seemed good. No better than my Glock's,
but good enough. Double action was acceptable, although I'm still an advocate
of "one gun, one pull." Another point in favor of the Glock.
Accuracy--didn't shoot it for a group at 25, but I'm willing to believe they're very good shooters out of the box. The .40 Compact I shot was hittin' great at 25, and the owner of the one I shot today said it's the most accurate factory gun he's ever shot.
Recovered well from recoil. It wasn't superb but again, for a factory gun, no compensator, straight outta the box, and seemingly fairly light to boot (polymer frame and all), it was OK. Need more time on one to eval properly. It didn't feel as good as my .45, but that may be a matter of getting used to it. Also, I was shooting the owner's handloads, and I don't know what he was loading----coulda been rhino rollers, although they didn't feel like it. At any rate, it was a helluva lot better'n my Sig P220.
Controls easy to manipulate. Right where they oughta be, unlike that silly Italian thing. Didn't have to cock the gun at all to reach safety/decocker, or slide stop. Good! (Glock has no safety to screw you up; I find the slide stop on the Glock no problem, although the shape of the HK's made it slightly easier to manipulate than the Glock's. I'll call this one a draw.)
Sights pretty standard for a modern factory gun.
Don't really like the mag release that much. I'd rather push in than down: again, a long-time .45 shooter's bias. Might be able to get used to it. Mags popped right out, unlike the Glock's tendency to sometimes hold onto 'em when not completely empty. (Mine doesn't do this, but I've seen it happen.) This isn't a big tactical concern to me as, if I'm ejecting a mag with rounds still in it, I must not be in a big hurry, and the Glock only holds onto 'em when there's still ammo in the mag. Still, all things being equal, better if it didn't do this, ever! Score one for the HK.
Those who aren't used to the feel of a top-heavy, polymer frame gun wouldn't like the feel of the HK. But you can adjust to this---I hated it about the Glock at first, and now I'm a confirmed Glock lover.
After more inspection, I don't think it's a bad-looking gun (who cares, anyway, if it shoots?!), although it still seems unreasonably wide to me. But it's not the ugliest gun I've seen, by any means.
Summary: I don't see it as the last word in combat handguns, as some would argue, but the USP is OK with me. I'd sure as hell rather carry one of those than my Beretta! So stand down, all you USPphiles! No need to spam me with hate-mail---I concede, it's not a bad gun, despite my anti-HK bias.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Sunday, May 03, 1998 at 23:06:06 (EDT)
Anyone want to talk about rifles? Hugh? Please? Hugh? ;-)
Scott <xring>
USA - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 00:54:19 (EDT)
In my days of being Active duty with a German Army Jäger outfit
we went out shooting once a week for a day including a night shoot until
about 23:00.
Also we went to the big ranges/training areas like Wildflecken and
Hammelburg twice a year.
If I take into account all vacation and holidays I end up with a
figure of +- 16.000 Rounds fired over a 4 year term.
plus about a dozen of live hand grenades, 8 shots with a 44 mm Anti
tank RPG, and 3 shots of Milan ATGM, and some other stuff.
Not really all that much on a US standard, but at the time we were with the top ten ammo burners of the german forces.
If I tell these figures to my active duty friend today they start crying. No more Estern threat / no more ammo.
We always envied the US troops shoveling out ammo at the shooting ranges were we received our 5 rounds at a time.
But then again " the number of hits on the target is firepower, not the number of rounds firerd "
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 02:45:03 (EDT)
Raufoss ammo comes from Norway made by Raufoss Ammo. Co. located in Raufoss a small town 150km north of Oslo.
Olin has a license to make .50BMG ammo.
Raufoss also makes this ammo in 20mm, 25mm, 27mm Mauser and 30mm.
The explosive charge is RDX.
Norwegian produced .50BMG ammo usually shoots 1moa in McMillans and 1,5moa in Barrett semiautos. More than enough for 1moapc!
Pauza has plans for a 20mm sniperrifle. It should be a blast to shoot with Raufoss ammo. I doubt it will be practical but it sure will be fun!
BTW. I only need an action. I've got a brand new 20mm flak 38 barrel
in store made by BYF. (Mauser)
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 04:42:41 (EDT)
4000 rds/man/year? I can only dream of such excesses! Seriously, that's an order of magnitude more than what I've seen most active duty Marines fire in the last five years! Shooting every week?! Again, I feel a sudden urge to beat my head against something hard and immobile. Unbelievable! Of course, now we have the magical, mystical panacea of marksmanship training woes----the Indoor Simulated Marksmanship Trainer! Great! We train to kill on a huge, ridiculously expensive video game! Better than nothing? I suppose. A replacement for real weapons and ammo? Well, I think we all know the answer to that! For the money they spent on that big videogame, they coulda bought an unGODly amount of ammo!
One Marine captain suggested in "The Marine Corps Gazette" that we needed red-dot sights and electric triggers, so shooting the rifle would be easier, and consequently, lack of training ammo wouldn't be such a big deal. I disagreed rather strongly, and wrote them a letter saying so! Learn to shoot a basic weapon well, and the rest is just refinement. Learn to shoot with a supergun, all you'll ever be able to shoot is a supergun! Whatever happened to crawl-walk-run?
Ahhh, well---what th' hell do I know? I do miss the Evil Empire sometimes,
though!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 05:19:40 (EDT)
yep, those were the days. I figure about 46 shoots per year with
a mix of MG 3, Uzi, P1 (P38) and G-3 of about 50 rounds per week. Plus
two trips to the big ranges for a week were we would fire in squad/platoon
size elements with a mix of two 20 rd. mags per go and with about 3-5 diffrent
stages per day .Plus the MG 3 on long distance tripod (Feldlaffette) with
120 rd. per go and about 3 stages for the whole trip.
My Schießbuch ( soldiers personal shooting booklet )
tells a pretty good story of this.
But then again we are in a diffrent reunited Germany now and things
have changed.
You are right about the shooting skills, if you can shoot and hit
with an Ak you can also shoot and hit with an H&K PSG 1.
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 06:35:56 (EDT)
I would ask any last minute walk on competitors to bring CASH. It will take several weeks for checks to cash - thereby holding up the final check we plan on presenting to the Hathcock family. Personal checks will not be accepted. Sorry guys, but I want to get the payment out as soon as is feasible and personal checks at this point will really hold up the works.
Second item. We will need volunteer medical personel at the match. If you or any of your aquaintences fit this description, please contact me via email. We can use EMTs, military medics, or nurses. This is precautionary of course, in case one of you happen to use a live round on my precious posterior during the stalk phase.
Again, that you all for your support!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 12:44:11 (EDT)
Nathan: Ahh the memories! Shades of Sand Hill, Ft. Benning! My issue M16 during AIT was a honest to God Vietnam era rehash. The serial number had LOTs of zeros in it for heavens sake. Lucky for me it worked fairly flawlessly until loaded up with carbon from all the blank firing. On the other hand, my issue M16A2 during Basic was cherry and BRM went off with out a hitch. Could be they gave all you officer wanna-bees our cast offs! I guess there is some justice in the universe...hee heee....
The weaponeer. Jeeze, I'd actually forgotten that thing. Scored clean
on it. Neat toy. Seemed like a total waste of tax payer dollars. An afternoon
on the range would have had as much value. Have you ever gone to the High-Tec
center up at Dix? They had a weaponeer on steriods. You got into a firing
position and watched a movie play out on a big screen. You engaged the
targets as they appeared on screen. A compressed charge simulated recoil.
Afterward, a computer would relive the entire engagement on screen including
hits, misses, percentages et cetera. A veritable replay sans Howard Cosell.
Same thoughts as above. Why not just put us on a range and live fire on
movers? Just goes to show, our military has hi-tec on the brain, regardless
of common sense. I understand the value of these machine for evaluation
of skill, but nothing beats real range time.
Scott
USA - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 13:12:10 (EDT)
the no of rounds per gun issue !
I have found out that our Armorers (worldwide?) tend to hand out only 2 or 4 Pistols or MG-3´s or whatever for a shoot.
That way the other 20 stay nice and black and clean and oiled, you know the BS.
This way you end up with a 140 man Infantry unit firing their share through the same 4 pistols every time the unit goes to the range.
Natrually you get these guns beat to the max in a short time, and the average draftee only sees a pistol or MG that does not funktion properly. These are then the people that badmouth a particular weapon design from their limited experience.
Our luck they let us use our personal G-3´s.
We had two of them.
One was handed out once when you joined the unit to shoot it and
zero it, and then it would be cleaned, threated with a rust inhibitor and
sealed airtight in a plastic bag. A name tag would be taped to the bag
and the rifle would go into a special storage basement for use when the
shit actually hit the fan.
The other rifle was our regular bang around gun for blanks and PT and regular range sessions as well as the annual Schützenschnur Badge qual.
Our Sniper G-3´s were handled the same way and I had two snipers
per squad. 8 per platoon 24 per company.
But then again, only G-3´s with a Hensold 4 power scope.
They were good out to 600 Meters and some very tight ones even to
800. Problem was always the H&K mount. I remember a very healthy ass
chewing by our S-4 when I spot welded 4 mounts to the rifles to prove something
during a Sniper training class.
BR Torsten
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 15:50:20 (EDT)
Bill: I understand that those shotshell are s'posed to be stood on end (I'm not crazy, and after all, I tend to string vertically anyway!). I just couldn't see the darn things. I mean, I could sort of see 'em, and I managed to hit one from time to time, but I think that was just the law of averages---I couldn't tell if I was even holdin' in the same place----they were darn near invisible with front sight in focus. I was serious about that glasses comment---it's been around 2 years, I'd guess, so maybe time for another exam!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, May 04, 1998 at 22:22:07 (EDT)
Torsten
Torsten Erning <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, May 05, 1998 at 08:56:40 (EDT)
Seriously though, I would have to agree that a lot of the training rifles, particularly those reserved for AIT were trash. Makes sense I guess as they get dropped, rolled on, full of sand, bent, broke and abused. Hmm...sounds just like the poor trainee!
Matt: Feel free to talk your favorite topic anytime. The site is rifle oriented, but when it all goes south, at close range, the pistol is going to decide the day. Learning sound info is never a waste of time. You have not wasted ours. By the way, speaking of pistols bad, the worst I ever fired was a used up P-38. At 7 yards, it shot close to 10" right of point of aim! I figured some Wagnarian Opra type must have SAT on it!
Guy: Welcome aboard! I have a question. You mentioned you are using
a fixed 10x scope. Have your teams ever considered going to a variable
such as the 3.5-10? I am curious about how and why certain equipment decisions
are made with in LE, and I am always looking for this kind of input. Just
an observation: a fixed 10x seems a little high for close range work with
in a closed environment like a prison. Has this magnification worked well
for you?
Scott
USA - Tuesday, May 05, 1998 at 11:19:44 (EDT)
Silencers !
is there any input from the world of sniping to the use of suppressors
on rifles and or pistols.
I have a polymer wet pack can on my Glock 17 for the up close work.
Also I made a .50 can for the M-88. Noise level is reduced to the sonic crack and recoil is close to a .308 on full loads.
We have launched 850 Grain Monolithics at 320M/sek. out to 500 Meters with good results. Noise level is like closing the door on a BMW.
Any input on .308 ?
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, May 05, 1998 at 11:48:11 (EDT)
For the board: I was talking to a sniper down here on his "B" billet,
and he was telling me that the Corps is considering arming the second man
in its sniper teams with scoped, accurized M-14s these days (they're currently
armed with M203s, for the most part). What's everyone's opinion of that
idea? I'm not sure of the rationale, although I suspect it's a compromise
between being able to lay down fire on a close-in threat and being able
to assist the sniper with intermediate-range targets. My personal thought
is that the M16/203 provides significantly more capability for close-in
defense, whereas the M-14 is a mediocre compromise--not outstanding for
the close defense and probably limited a bit as far as really reaching
out and touching someone. And you can't always count on having air or artillery
to dig you out of a tight spot, so having some indigenous firepower, even
if it's limited, is certainly better than nothing. Comments?
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Tuesday, May 05, 1998 at 12:12:49 (EDT)
AWS <asiemieniec@comappspec.com>
Arlington, VA USA - Tuesday, May 05, 1998 at 12:42:07 (EDT)
sorry if this is a repeat, i've been having trouble connecting with
this site all day.
Clark Fuller (Butch) <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
new orleans, la USA - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 00:10:00 (EDT)
Guess my experience with firearms training in the Army was vastly different than yours. I served 8 years and will say that I had excellent training from day one until the day that I left. In basic, as with any course for cherries, the rifles you receive are hand me downs, i.e. worn out, from line units that have used em a long time. Certainly, some of the actions your DIs took were wrong. But I doubt highly that they were sniper trained as you said they were. Probably trying to get a couple hundred knuckleheaded officer wannabees through a range, not that I am justifying substandard training.
I too had alot of problems with range equipment sometimes. Those
qualification ranges are designed ONLY for basic familiarization that every
soldier in the army should know.
And you make do with what you have. IMPROVISE, ADAPT & OVERCOME!
I did see things that pissed me off in training. I vowed that when I became a leader, I would do it better.
But I have to say that my training in the US Army was nothing short of OUTSTANDING. And I had the best leaders that this nation produces, same goes for the soldiers, perhaps more for the soldiers.
So your portrayal of typical army marksmanship training is way off base in my experience, and one little OBC course does not give you the big picture. Foreign officers used to observe our platoon live fire excercises in absolute awe, remarking that their troops would kill themselves trying to do what we did, and I would take my platoon up against any in the world in a live fire, and know that they would stand very tall.
JEFF
Jeff W. <jackal21@together.net>
VT USA - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 00:30:59 (EDT)
I have to largely agree w/you concerning marksmanship training in the military. I have a much higher (probably warped) standard regarding proficiency with weapons than is probably reasonable for a conventional line unit to meet. (SpecOps should be another story, and I'm not convinced that the black pajama guys are always as good as they ought to be, or think they are.) Sometimes I let this get in the way of objective evaluation. But if I step back, I have to say that my experiences with military marksmanship training have been good.
As a student at the Marine Corps' Basic School for officers, I saw lots of guys with little/no shooting experience learn to hit a man-size target more often than not at 500 m, with a stock M16 and iron sights. Any way you cut it, that's not bad. We also built up to conducting platoon-sized live fire attacks down a 400 or 500 m course, firing the whole array of organic weapons, moving, shooting, reloading on our own initiative, without any safety problems and with damn good effects on target, as well. The pistol training was effective, considering the very limited amount of time they had to train us----there wasn't a guy in my platoon who wasn't capable of doing what he'd probably need to with his M9 (grimace!) when we finished. For comparison, we had a Romanian exchange officer with us, who was a 10-year veteran of the infantry (said he stood with his back to a BMP all night, when the coup happened). That guy was the most unsafe, ineffective and incompetent guy in the bunch, when we hit the range. It was darn near an international incident, because the lieutenants were near mutiny, not wanting to be on the range with him! So it's all relative, I suppose. Was the training good enough to make every rifleman a Hathcock, or have everyone handling a pistol like Miculek, Leatham, et al? No. Was it probably better than that which any other basic officer (or troop, as it's very similar to what enlisted infantry Marines go through) in the world gets? Yes. Unfortunately, it's geared for groups, not individuals, so when you have one guy with a problem, he may get lost in the shuffle. But it's pretty good, overall.
I went through a course that Marine Corps Security Force Training Company puts on, a few months ago. In it, I did some of the same marksmanship training that the young privates and lance corporals go through. One of the requirements to pass the pistol course is to be able to draw the M9 (grimace again!) from an issue holster (flap hooked) and engage an IPSC target with two rounds in, I believe, 3 seconds. That's not nearly as fast as it can be done. But as a minimum requirement for ALL students, you've gotta admit, it's not bad.
While I'd love to see an entire Corps of Hathcocks, that's not realistic.
As long as we're staying ahead of the competiton, I guess we're not completely
blowing it.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 02:04:15 (EDT)
Just a nit-pick, but having commanded a company of drill sergeants for quite some time, the Army does NOT have drill "instructors" -- the Marines do, not the Army. Therefore, we do not have "DIs."
Oops, I just finished reading the rest of your post. "Cadet future officers?" Ohhhh, you went to "ROTC basic training." Ah. Anyway, I always like hearing Army-related training stories.
To Matt: These marksmanship "fads" are a joke. I'd rather see more "snapping in" time, THEN ammo. Screw the simulators. I've been involved with Army marksmanship as a private and as a captain. Nothing changed during that time -- it sucked then, it sucks now. Nobody in the Army ever asked ME how to run a marksmanship program.
Training story: FT Leonard Wood, 1992. I was the OIC for the grenade range. Crawl-walk-run method (dummies, "poppers," live grenades). The kids didn't make it to the next phase until they passed the previous one. You get the idea. Still... kids (some, not all) would freeze up in the pits. BAD time to freeze up. Too many of them did -- well, a LOT of @#%@# stupid stuff! The instructors deserved hazard pay. I gave them "stress" breaks every 15 minutes.
The kids we're getting, in the military today, are largely brain-dead. I base this not only on what I see, and have seen, but on a number of articles that have been written about military training. They're too wrapped up in video games and "simulated life AND death." Another problem is divorce, and irresponsible (and unwed) fathers. Kids are not taken out shooting anymore. Televisions have been "babysitters" for many years now. Kids grow up shooting each other because they didn't know the gun was loaded. They don't know a muzzle from a breach. And what happens? They want "a little help" with college, because mommy and daddy won't help or never made the kid get a job and save his money -- so they join the Army, looking for a free ride. They (the majority) don't want to serve their country (ask them), they want some money or money for college. Academy cadets are no better. The (current) average West Point cadet intends to serve his or her initial commitment and then leave the service to accept a position in the private sector ("West Point" looks pretty good on a resume'). Know how much of YOUR money it takes to put ONE cadet through West Point (or any academy)? A quarter of a million dollars! Yes, $250,000 per cadet.
There needs to be a MAJOR shift back to basics, especially in marksmanship training. Screw the bells and whistles, and get back to teaching how a rifle works, how ammunition works, how to read wind, how to hit a target at an unknown distance.
To Guy Johnson: Since I'm in Silvis, we should talk. Contact me at taylorr@ri.disa.mil at your soonest opportunity. So, your service is through Derby Tech, eh? I drive by them every night on my way to work.
To Atomic Chaos 69: Visit the ArmaLite website. (Being the webmaster for ArmaLite, you don't think I'd refer you anywhere ELSE, do you?)
To Cadet Kacmar: Interesting project. I'll give it some thought.
Would you mind providing a little more input? Such as, recoil limitations,
weight (of system), and portability requirements? By the way, you misspelled
"existing," cadet. Get on your face and give me 25. You may "recover" when
finished.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 02:47:53 (EDT)
The optimum round for a silent sniperrifle is the .300 whisper. Thats the .221 rem. fireball necked up to .30 cal and loaded with the 240gr Sierra MK at just under the spped of sound, 320ms. The barrel has to have a 1-8" twist to stabilize the long bullet. This round will work in any rifle designed for for .223rem. The barrel does not have to be longer than 14 to 16". If you add the length of regular suppressor you end up with a "barrellength" of 26". I've even seen a report and picture of a M16 converted to .300wh. Talk about an effective subgun. The 240gr Sierra MK is extremly effective subsonic. When the bullet is fired at 320ms it still has 300ms at 200m.
I've used sniper and huntingrifles with suppressors fireing regular supersonic rounds like 7,62NATO. The suppressor eliminates any fireingsignature like expolsive report, muzzleflash, moving vegitation/dust, etc. The sonic boom from the bullet is still there ofcource.
Tactically I think the supersonic mode of operation is preferable. In at least 90% of operations anyone on the receiving end will react when the soldier(general ofcource) goes down after being hit. The subsonic mode requires you to get closer to the target due to appaling ballistics. In supersonic mode it's business a usual. The suppressor eliminates the fireingsignature. That means that experiensed grunts can't figure out the range by timing the difference between the sonic boom from the bullet and the muzzlereport. In addition the sonic boom from the bullet comes at a 90deg angle from the direction of the shot. In other words, you can't hear a bullet before it has passed you and the direction of the shot are always called with a 90deg error. Thats not bad when you are trying to get away from the scene. We did some tests fireing with a suppressed and a unsppressed rifle at (above!) some people in a trench from different directions and ranges. With the unsuppressed rifle range and sometimes direction were found. With a suppressed rifle confusion was total.
In Norway suppressors are legal. At least 50% of .22LR rifles have a suppressor.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 11:10:55 (EDT)
i had a chance to fire a .300 wisper into a sand berm while viseting with geoge kelgren from kel tec in rockledge florida. fun gun.
on the other issue youré along my opinion also.
do you have any rifle ranges that are open for military reserve shooters from other countries ?
what are your thoughts about a visit of some of our reserves in your country ?
regards
torsten
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 12:04:22 (EDT)
Kodiak
USA - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 12:23:52 (EDT)
Smoky,
smoky furgussen <larrysofia@hotmail.com>
galena, kansas USA - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 16:17:27 (EDT)
I don't know about access to the shootingranges.
The easiest thing would be to get in contact with some norwegian
units. A friend of mine is serving as a sniper-instructor. I'll ask him.
If your unit make official contact to the Norwegian National Guard I think you may be able to take part in some courses at their trainingcamp Torpo. US Special Forces are regular visitors.
I discharged last month from the National Guard.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 16:55:03 (EDT)
To Steve:
I grew up shooting the Finnish Mosin-Nagant in 7.62 Russian. It
was a good round, on par with the .308W. Finnish snipers used this rifle,
mostly with iron sights, against the Russians during WWII. Consistant hits
to 600m was common, even with iron sights. The Finns mainly got the use
of the side-mounted scope from captured Russian sniper rifles. The Finns
used the "Ukko-Pekka" as their sniper rifle. It was a hand built, hand
fitted M39 with laminated stock and a 28" barrel. The original Mosin-Nagant
had a 31" barrel. On the Finnish rifle, peep sights were often used. The
Ukko-Pekka was later block bedded, but eventually the Finns upgraded to
the Sako TRG.
Hans
BC CANADA - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 20:43:40 (EDT)
Suppressors: I find it odd that the United States has a legal phobia for suppressors, though not guns, while many countries with strict limitations on firearms are not worked up over suppressors. This is due, I believe, to the historical conditions surrounding the 1934 National Firearms Act and the 1968 Gun Control Act. Bad guys were using suppressors, ergo they are bad. Later, police did not like them because suppressed weapons were harder to hear, etc.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere, USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 00:21:25 (EDT)
To Kodiak: Your timing is impeccable. I just reassembled two triggers after having my Savages phosphated. Plus, I'd had to do it once before when I had my 110FP Tactical frozen, too. Assuming you haven't lost any of the parts (you should have a parts "breakout" from your Savage manual, or from another similar source), you'll just have to figure it out. I'll tell you this: From the time I bought my 110FP in 1994, to when I bought my 112BVSS-S in 1997, Savage made a "slight" change in the bolt release. You have five options. 1) Dump the trigger and say "screw it." 2) Send the barreled action to Savage. 3) Figure it out for yourself, like I did. 4) Call me and I'll walk you through the procedure (and run up your phone bill, too). 5) Send me the barreled action, all the trigger parts, and $25 (five bucks of which will cover my shipping it back to you when I'm done) and I'll do it for you. Once you've reassembled a Savage trigger from scratch, you'll know what you're doing. Having done three (so far), I guess I'm an expert. The BIGGEST problem (really, the ONLY problem) is the coil spring that has two straight lengths extending from both sides of it. If you have some simple tools, and a little brute strength, you can do it.
To Nathan: I met Bill Jordan at the 1995 Prairie Dog 'Conference'
in Malta, MT. I stand 6'5", Bill stood about 6'7". I have big hands. Bill
had BIG hands. I mean, B I G hands! I shook hands with this gentle
giant of a man, and looked up (literally) to him. (Both he and Skeeter
Skelton had been quite an influence on me. I was "majorly bummed" when
Skeeter died. Really messed me up. Long story.) It was a real honor for
me to meet Bill. He was the kindest, friendliest gentleman you could
ever hope to meet. We chatted for a little bit and, over the next few days,
it was just nice to be at a shooting event in Bill's presence. I, too,
was sad to learn of his demise last year.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 02:38:50 (EDT)
thanks for the "invitation" . i will have my unit send you a formal
E mail with our data on it.
We are running a class at this time and will go shooting on a sniper
training area in oktober, maybe some of you would like to visit also. send
me a mail if you are OK with the above´.
Hans,
heat build up on suppressors and following Mirage.
I have the same problem with my .50 can. It has a screw type thread
on the outside to dissipate? (you know what i mean) the heat faster over
a greater area.
I am using the Eagle scope cover as a heat padding around the suppressor
when i am shooting. this way it is good for at least 10 rounds. and with
the .5 that is enough anyway.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 02:53:30 (EDT)
Simrad Optronics, like Raufoss, is a Norwegian company.
A friend and shootingbuddy worked as an developmentengineer on the Simrad nightvision addon scope.
Simrad makes a very neat night vision goggle. It's a single lens design and looks like a small compact camera. My friend got Aimpoint of Sweeden to make a custom red dot sight calibrated to work with the Simrad NVG at night. The Aimpoint sight was mounted on a Glock. Very interesting to patrol in total darkness and have a weapon ready designed to aim through the NVG.
I'm sorry to say my friend left Simrad to work for national television...
Poor guy.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 04:09:20 (EDT)
My apologies for not remembering that Norway is Simrad's home. I've
got the Aimpoint with the night vision-capable dot mounted on my CAR. Haven't
yet had the opportunity to use it with night, but I'm sure looking forward
to it. My thanks to your friend.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 10:01:56 (EDT)
c/CMSgt. Keith Kacmar <Kacmar@thevine.net>
Saugus, CA USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 10:42:08 (EDT)
My two cents' worth, and not necessarily the opinions of this site
or anyone affiliated with it.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 12:29:25 (EDT)
does that aimpoint work with a secondary IR diode or do they just
put the polarizing filter on the other end so that you can dim the dot
down further ?
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 14:04:37 (EDT)
Torsten: Keine Ahnung. Scrieben Sie Springfield o. Aimpoint U.S.A. mit der Frage.
Whoops, sorry. Where am I? The states. Yes. Wish I were going to with Russ to Germany. It's been too long for me.
I think it may be just the same diode but lower setting. It is possible that there is a second diode. The Aimpoint without this capability is about $25 less. I suppose one way to tell would be to look into the front of the scope to see whether there is a second diode. You'd need night vision for this since the two N.V. settings are too low for unaided eyes to observe.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 15:24:35 (EDT)
Torsten: Keine Ahnung. Scrieben Sie Springfield o. Aimpoint U.S.A. mit der Frage.
Whoops, sorry. Where am I? The states. Yes. Wish I were going to with Russ to Germany. It's been too long for me.
I think it may be just the same diode but lower setting. It is possible that there is a second diode. The Aimpoint without this capability is about $25 less. I suppose one way to tell would be to look into the front of the scope to see whether there is a second diode. You'd need night vision for this since the two N.V. settings are too low for unaided eyes to observe.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 15:24:36 (EDT)
Semper Fi!!!
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@msn.com>
Chesapeake, Va USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 22:06:55 (EDT)
Concerning the Super Nintendo--Yes, the Army uses a Super Nintendo to SUPPLEMENT Basic Rifle Marksmanship. It is a training tool. Proper breathing technique, trigger pull, and proper sight alignment can be taught using this tool. It allows soldiers to practice these techniques before heading to the range to qualify. I can recall helping many soldiers in my unit to improve their scores. In a perfect world, with the perfect Army, we could go to the range and shoot live ammunition whenever we wanted to. Unfortunately, we are bound by a defenseive BUDGET. So, until you get true Basic Rifle Marksmanship from the United States Army, and function as a member of the Army, keep to what you know.
Disclaimer: Nathan, this discussion is not meant offend you. I just
have a personal hatred towards ROTC.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, KS USA - Thursday, May 07, 1998 at 22:47:04 (EDT)
Although I'm not a member of any militia, and don't expect I ever will be, I'm not ready to lump them all together and call them "terrorists." I honestly believe that, while some of them are hate groups hiding behind the militia tag, many (or even most) of these individuals and groups are people, like most of us, who are concerned about personal liberties and the Bill of Rights, and aren't getting any satisfaction through traditional means. I don't think most of them are a bunch of lunatics or hatemongers, and I doubt that very many of them are dangerous.
I think we're all, on this page, pretty frustrated with the way personal liberties in this country seem to be more and more curtailed. Gun control laws are one example, the one closest to most of our hearts, but they're not the only example. Now, having been trying the traditional approach to furthering my views for quite some time (letters to my congressmen, contributions to NRA-ILA and GOA, etc.) I know first-hand how frustrating things can be. Write a letter to a congressman, you probably get a fence-sitting reply that assures you (not in so many words) that the Honorable Mr. Such-and-So knows what's best for you, and not to worry. Just go enjoy the good economy and be glad you're not in Bosnia, you ingrate! But he's sending the same letter to anyone who writes in to support gun control, too! And when was the last time anyone saw gun control laws become LESS restrictive? Seriously. In my opinion, the gun-controllers are slowly, decade by decade, winning this fight. Look at where we were 35 years ago, and where we are now. Looks like progress on their part, to me! So, although I don't agree with the approach the militias are taking, I can understand their feeling like they have to do something out-of-the-ordinary. I think they're mostly confused about what to do, and these "militia" groups are a misguided attempt to take a different approach, to call attention to their concerns and register their frustration.
Now, as to the comment that everyone who "messes with...illegal weapons" is a terrorist: If I owned a rifle with a pistol grip stock and a flash suppressor, made on a certain date, that would be illegal. And I'd, according to that line of argument, be a "terrorist." Me and the IRA! Hamas! The Red Brigade! OK. But if I owned the exact same rifle, made a day earlier, it could be legal, and then I'd just be an average citizen with a rifle. Does that make sense? Let's be careful about our terminology here. And think about this: When (it may be "when" and not "if" at the rate we're going) magazine-fed guns are outlawed, or ALL guns, for that matter, everyone on this page will have the choice of turning in their precious M700s and M1As and all the rest of them, or becoming "terrorists." Think about that, and tell me if simply owning a certain type of weapon, absent any other criminal intent or ill purpose, makes one a "terrorist." For that matter, does it make sense that if I owned a silencer I'd made myself, and hadn't paid a big tax on it, the ATF could kick in my door unannounced, shoot me when I tried to defend my family against what I thought was a criminal, then seize my possessions and leave them destitute, all because I wanted to be able to shoot without violating a noise ordinance or upsetting the people at the church up the road from the range? That's where it stands today. But owning that silencer, according to the logic presented, would probably make me a "terrorist."
Now, as to the responsibility of individual federal law enforcement agents for abuses: most of us on this page probably agree that self-determination and personal responsibility are the ideas on which America was founded. If the "administration" makes bad, even illegal or unconstitutional, decisions regarding law enforcement, and agents go along with it, are they not responsible for resulting abuses, just as the policy-makers are? Didn't we pretty much establish that principle at Nuremberg? If a soldier illegally shoots a bunch of civilians on the orders of an officer, isn't he culpable, too? Yes, he is. So if agents agree to no-knock raids on the homes of people who aren't dangerous, or aren't even criminals, and those people are killed in the process, don't they share the blame for those deaths? If they agree to attempt to entrap law-abiding gun owners and dealers at gun shows, aren't they responsible for those acts, as well as the people who came up with the idea? I think they are. If they raid the home of a man who is "suspected" of a techincal violation of some federal gun law while no one's at home, do thousands of dollars damage, find nothing illegal, and leave his house standing open to any criminal who happens along when they leave, isn't every agent who didn't say, "Wait, this isn't how we're supposed to treat American citizens," in the wrong?
I believe that there are lots and lots of good people in federal law enforcement agencies, and I support them totally. I have a buddy who's an FBI agent. Great guy. But there are bad apples, too, and those people shouldn't be able to hide behind the "administration" as an excuse for their actions. They can always refuse, or quit if they disagree with what they're being told to do. Consenting to it is tacit agreement, and makes them culpable for any wrongdoing that results. Yes, they might lose their jobs if they protest. But if they feel the job is more important than the freedoms of the people they're supposed to serve, that's a choice which has consequences (or should have consequences) that they must accept.
Also, let's not blame one administration for these abuses. It's been going on for YEARs, people! The ATF has been investigate by Congress more than once, and they've had their "rogue" image for a long time. It gets slightly better or a lot worse with different administrations, but the problems is systemic. Throwing Clinton and his people out of office isn't going to magically make everything better. And we've had a Republican-controlled Congress for some time now. Has ATF been disbanded? They KNOW it's out of control, but it's still here. Has its budget even been cut, to make a point? If it has, it hasn't been very significant. So yes, Congress and the courts SHOULD be doing something, but they're not. Again, I understand why people get frustrated, and some of them join "militias" as a result. Hey, I'm pissed off, too! I'm just not as naive, or whatever, as some people, so I don't see militias as the answer. But I "feel their pain."
Look, McVeigh and Nichols and their ilk are scum. I'd happily throw the switch on both of them, if asked. And I don't advocate violence toward, or subversion of, our government in any way. But I AM concerned about the direction this country is heading---I bet most of us here are. And we're shooting ourselves in the foot if we become apologists for individuals or agencies who subvert our Constitution from within the government, or if we fail to acknowledge the extent of the problem.
Just some thoughts.
Bob S.
Anytown, USA - Friday, May 08, 1998 at 00:31:12 (EDT)
I think you're right on the ages, although the Constitution didn't specify ages, as we all know. That came later, as part of the U.S. Code, and at the time of the Revolution and the writing of the Constitution, I think that "militia" actually was considered to apply to all able-bodied male citizens above a certain age---probably younger than 18, back then! Now, with our more enlightened approach to these things, we could probably reasonably assume that women would be included, too. We could also assume that since the average lifespan was much less back then, 56 was probably an upper limit set more by how long a man could be expected to remain in a state of reasonable health than anything else. We could probably make a good case that the maximum age has gone up considerably since the Eighteenth or early Nineteenth Century.
Hate groups are nothing I am a fan of. And if they are illegally
stockpiling explosives and so on, well, THAT is a justifiable cause for
federal agencies to pursue. But we have to be careful....there are a lot
of issues here. Restrictions on explosives can easily become restrictions
on gunpowder if we're not careful, etc., etc. And if we let them get away
with violations of these people's rights (even though we may despise them),
they're gonna be able to get away with violating ours, too. So we've got
to let them talk their trash, and we've got to support their rights against
unreasonable search and seizure, etc., just as if they were our own. The
good and bad of the Constitution, all wrapped up in one. We're free to
be different and do as we wish, but so are they, and even if they are going
across the line and breaking the law, they still have an "inalienable right"
to be treated in accordance with our Bill of Rights. It's frustrating,
but it's the best way anybody's come up with so far to ensure freedom and
civil liberties (another term which has been perverted!!) for the citizenry.
Bob S.
USA - Friday, May 08, 1998 at 12:03:10 (EDT)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, May 08, 1998 at 19:57:37 (EDT)
As my M40 fires
his life will expire
a shot to his head
my target is dead
Walking in a snipers wonderland
any of you musical genuises want to help come up w/some more verses your welcome to it.
Nathan: Good luck w/the cop job.
My buddies and I grew up w/Sgt. Hathcock as our rolemodel we would like to help him but we cant get to S-mountain. what is a teenager to do?
P.S. My commander wants me to babysit his brats help!
c/CMSgt. Keith Kacmar AFJROTC <Kacmar@thevine.com>
Saugus, CA USA - Friday, May 08, 1998 at 20:40:17 (EDT)
Semper Fidelis!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Friday, May 08, 1998 at 23:00:47 (EDT)
Bob S.
USA - Saturday, May 09, 1998 at 01:33:38 (EDT)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, May 09, 1998 at 10:49:22 (EDT)
To TorF: I seem to remember, if my memory serves me correctly, that
you have some experience with the 6.5x55mm.Do you have any suggestions
?
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Saturday, May 09, 1998 at 13:20:12 (EDT)
Up the hill, there's an Iraqi,
Always looking very tacky,
Lock and load one round........You get the picture.
Sorry if I have offended anyone. I truly think that cadence songs
are fascinating and paint another picture of military life that civilians
either don't see or understand. This is an example of Black Humor. Good
shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 01:55:50 (EDT)
I consider target aquisition time to be extremelly important.
Having the focus adjustment on a knob is a good idea but still find
the 1/4 moa click elevation adjustment too slow.
(Portuguese 7.62 Nato ball ammo willbe usedand so no BDC for it,
I gess))
Two more things. I will be shooting mostly portuguese ball ammo, so, is there any bullet drop compensator scope for Nato ball rounds?
Finnaly: I will be fitting a laminated stock from Zero,Inc. A2 tyled. A laminated wood stock would allow me to install an accumajic device and a detachable magazine kit (from Tank´s rifle shop or Robar). (Mc Millan fiberglass stocks are desired but due to the innernet properties of the material and construction they dont allow me to customize them as I would like).
I look forward to "hear" your wise comments and advices.
Thank you very much.
Pedro Marcos
Pedro Marcos <mop53005@mail.telepac.pt>
-, - USA - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 06:59:27 (EDT)
Pedro,
i just bought a leupold M3 long range, very good scope and it comes
with four diffrent BDC turrets,.223, 30-06,.300 WinM., .308 Match.
However it should be possible to get a blank turret from Leupold
and then have it lasered with your specific Data.
The adjustment of the leupold M3 is by 1 MOA internvalls up and
1/2 MOA windage.
If you have problems getting the scope and blank BDC let me know i may be able to help.
Good to see another european on this site.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 08:36:58 (EDT)
These are max loads with VV N160:
Sierra 120gr: 49gr, mv: 2900fps.
Nosler P. 140gr: 46gr, mv: 2650fps.
Hornady 160gr: 45gr, mv: 2500fps.
The best powder for longrange shooting is Norma MRP/RL22 (same powder produced by Bofors)
140gr HPBT match: 49gr RL22/MRP, mv: 2750fps.
These loads are clocked in a 24" european barrel.
In a 24" Douglas ss barrel the 140gr/49gr RL22 load clocked 2840fps.
European 6.5mm barrels usually give low veloceties.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 10:43:29 (EDT)
I have extensive experience with Schmidt & Bender 6X42 and 10X42
sniperscopes. They have 100m clicks from 100m to 300m and 50m clicks from
300m to 800m. The BDC-cam is spot on with norwegian NATO-ammo, 147gr FMJBT
at 2800fps. The 100m click is blocked going down so it is easy to recheck
rangesetting by counting clicks from 100m and up in darkness. I prefer
the 10X42.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 11:03:47 (EDT)
is your S&B also Green ?
I saw a green one on a Acurracy Int.
i like the 50 Meter come ups from 300 M on, Good Idea.
I may laser these onto my M3 as well.
Torsten
Germany - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 13:23:28 (EDT)
The S&B sniperscopes I have seen has standard civilian finish.
The S&B scopes were to top a M98 based sniperrifle produced in Norway called NM149 for the army. The rifle was a nice idea but the finished product was a disaster due to bad qualitycontrol. The rifles were given the serialnr. of the S&B scope to make a matching pair. I don't know the current status of the NM149. The National Guard won't tuch it going for scoped G3's instead. Special units gets H&K MSG90/S&B6X42 or Sauer 200 STR.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 14:41:50 (EDT)
Much praise is due Scott for pulling together everything and making it possible. Also, we should not forget Rod Ryan and Storm Mountain for making available their outstanding facilities in West Virginia. Finally, all of you who contributed and participated should be very proud.
All reports indicate that Carlos is doing very poorly. Please, remember
the man and his family in your prayers.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 20:52:24 (EDT)
I AM A FORMER MARINE SNIPER AND I AM LOOKING TO GET INTO A RESERVE SNIPER UNIT. GARDEN CITY IS THE ONLY ONE WITH A S.T.A. UNIT. I WANT TO KNOW HOW IT IS TO WORK IN THIS UNIT. GOOD AND BAD. ALSO IF IT IS WORTH GETTING BACK INTO. I WAS FULL TIME AND HAVE BEEN OUT FOR A COUPLE YEARS NOW AND MISS THE SNIPING WORLD VERY MUCH. IF YOU CAN HELP, PLEASE E-MAIL ME WITH YOUR INFO.
SEMPER-FI
LONG RANGE DEATH <CARRF31@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, May 10, 1998 at 21:29:10 (EDT)
Robb
Robb @ UNL <robb.lnk@ispi.lnk>
NE USA - Monday, May 11, 1998 at 20:01:19 (EDT)
Hmmm that gives me an idea would any body be interested in Sponsering/training a junior team in these comps Im sure some of us on the State junior rifle team would be interested.
Good job to everyone who participated in the charity comp
Why dont sheep shrink when it rains
A chicken is an eggs method of reproducing more eggs
P.S. If the enemy is in range So Are You!
Keith Kacmar <Kacmar@thevine.net>
Saugus, CA USA - Monday, May 11, 1998 at 21:15:50 (EDT)
Postal match is a neat idea, in my opinion. Could probably more participation than asking folks to drive hundreds/thousands of miles. Has some hurdles associated with it, but still a neat idea. And it's a noble cause.
Let's leave the sheep and chickens out of it---I think there are other websites for that sort of stuff!
Matt
GA USA - Tuesday, May 12, 1998 at 00:49:46 (EDT)
All my prayers to Gunny Hathcock, a man who never received the recognition
he deserved.
George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Tuesday, May 12, 1998 at 11:40:35 (EDT)
Sgt. Cox <ccox@bae.uga.edu>
GA. USA - Tuesday, May 12, 1998 at 14:16:57 (EDT)
I've had one of the Outer's Foul Out systems for several months.
My local action pistol group required lead only until recently and I was
naturally getting a lot of fouling in my Accumatch barrel for my Glock
23. (Sure wasn't going to put lead through a stock Glock barrel!!) After
a couple of hundred rounds at a match, the barrel would be pretty bad.
Prep for the Foul Out was pretty easy. Hit the bore with a couple of solvent
patches, then dry. Degrease using some alcohol swabs, plug the breech with
the appropriate rubber plug, and follow the rest of the easy instructions.
Prep time was only a few minutes. Takes an hour or more for the actual
cleaning cycle, depending on how bad the fouling is. There are two different
solutions that you use, one for lead fouling and the other for copper.
I can only comment on the lead in a handgun barrel. I must say, when the
cleaning cycle was completed, and I had swabbed out the bore and dried
it, the difference was quite amazing. I could not see any visible residual
leading at all. Of course, if I had one of those fancy bore inspection
scopes, I would probably have found something, but eyeball Mark I mod 0
showed a clean bore. Not a cheap piece of gear though. Mine ran a bit over
$110 with the AC adapter. However, if you are prone to bad fouling problems,
this thing should do the trick.
George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Tuesday, May 12, 1998 at 14:28:50 (EDT)
To SGT Cox: It was good meeting you and, like I said to George, "thank
you" for the kind words. It makes all our efforts worthwhile.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 03:07:58 (EDT)
1) Enjoying something gives you a better chance of being good at.
Even if it is only in your own eyes, so what.
2) Starting early can inspire you for life, so take time with our
youth.
3) Having the best, most expensive equipment isn't where it is at.
I still shoot my air rifle and get lots of fun doing it. Especially with
my son. We actually have lizards on our range that watch us pop balloons
and they appear to be fascinated and unafraid.
4) Children instinctively can make a weapon part of their bodies
as well as any other tool. My son is an incredible shot at age 7.
At times this site gets a little on the stiff side, yeah there is serious stuff and needs seriousness but at the same time very few of us are dealing with life and death all the time.
By the way I suspect at age 7 you were over the hill. At age 5 I was using up over 100 bb's a day and taking out as many frogs. Frogs having less than a 1" cross-section for instant paralysis. I look back on it as cruelty now but at the same time it was a heck of alot of fun. Plus no reloading or barrel cleaning.
Tom.scott
USA - Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 09:15:58 (EDT)
Mike
Mike F. <niteeyes20@ids.net>
Coventry, RI USA - Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 14:59:05 (EDT)
The Marines appropriately set the pace for the event and took the win. Even the marines who lost managed to set match records during the event. Gimmellie made the fastest time on the stress course at something like 1:53. The average was around 3:00. He did this while being sick as a dog. Huraahh.
Sgt's. Voss and Hunter won the event by a good margin. Two IDPA international champions took second (wow, dedicated pistol shooters CAN handle rifles!) and the Canadian team placed third. Great job all.
To all of you who missed out but would still like a match t-shirt, I will, out of pocket, contract a new set if I can confirm committments for more than 30 shirts. The minimum I can order is 50 - which will run $275. All proceeds, after the shirt run is paid off, will go to the Hathock's. The price per shirt will remain at $10. Email me with your requests.
Again, I thank each and every one of you who attended. With out your willingness to make this event, we could never have made it a success. I'd also like to Acknowledge Rod Ryan and Dave Whidden of Storm Mountain for putting on one heck of a good show.
In closing I'd like to express my kudo's to the gent who chose to
compete with the Sharps Falling Block rifle. Two head shots at 250 yards,
open sights, after running 200 yards up hill. Well Done!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 15:28:04 (EDT)
Thanks
Gary
GARY GREEN <jafo@erinet.com>
Ohio USA - Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 15:46:53 (EDT)
You can be on my team anytime!
Take care and "Eat my grits!"
To Sniper Country and Storm Mountain Training Center: Let's do it again, and soon!
To all of you who didn't come to West Virginia and play in the rain: You missed a great one! West Virginia truely is God's Country!!
Depity Dave
David Paul Rolls <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Burlington, WV USA - Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 19:27:01 (EDT)
Nathan: Good luck with your job search.
Russell: I got my supposed Armalite lower receiver the other day. I was a little disappointed to find out it's actually an Eagle Arms receiver. What gives?
Glad to hear the Hathcock Event went well. I'm anxious to hear about
the upcoming charity in August. Hopefully it will be a little closer to
Kansas...
I've found a source for the new Leupold Vari-X M3 Long Range for
$650. If anyone knows of a cheaper price I would appreciate an adress and
phone number.
I would like to get in touch with a recently retired or current
Marine or Army Marksmanship Team armorer. I need a few tips on how to work
up my DCM AR-15 and Beretta.
Finally, does anybody know where I can get the schedule for the
National Matches at Perry? Thanks for any input...
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
Manhattan, KS USA - Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 22:28:44 (EDT)
l8er
Sgt. G. COUGH COUGH!!!
Sgt. G. <USMC__SNIPER@msn.com>
Chesapeake, Va USA - Wednesday, May 13, 1998 at 22:45:26 (EDT)
I was proud to do my small part for a man I admire as a do-er not a pretender.
My contact with tactical shooting (sniping) is as a rural law enforcement officer. Most often I am called upon to deal with dogs that are molesting a farmers livestock. However, I have been deployed as a long distance back-up for my fellow deputies in a mental-hygene (nut case) situation and I expect more, not less of that in the future.
I was proud to have been accepted by men with obviously far more extencive training and experiance than I have. Not once did I feel less than part of a team and by that I mean one member of a thirty man team as opposed to one part of a two man team compeating against fourteen other teams.
I have been a competitive shooter for about thirty years and have never competed in any event where there was as much cooperation and as little carping. Not once did I hear a fellow shooter complain about the way someone chose to do somthing or the equipment he chose to use to acomplish a given task. Well there was one slight misunderstanding about lazer range finders but when it was pointed out that they wern't to be used it was quietly put away.
Thanks again to all who were envolved, come back to West Virginia any chance you get and look me up if you wish.
Pray for Carlos, he and his family need all our help.
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
West (By God) Virginia USA - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 00:07:30 (EDT)
To Dave Rolls: Are you the bolt-action Rolls or the semi-auto Rolls? Put differently, are you the "Rule of 3" Rolls I was talking to in the driveway at SMTC?
To Gary Green: There IS no "best" load for "a" Savage 110FP Tactical, nor for any brand/model combination. Each and every rifle has one load, maybe two loads, that will do better than all others, and it's up to you, the shooter, to find the load(s) that will provide the best accuracy in your firearm. I'll tell you what has worked in two 110FP Tacticals, though (mine and Garry Blosser's) -- 41.0 grains of Vihtavuori Oy N-140, match-prepped Federal cases, Sierra 168-grain HPBT Match Kings, and CCI 250 primers. (I managed to beat Federal GM308M at 200 yards with this load.) Also, 43.0 grains of Varget.) My other (current) load is 43.0 grains of N-140, same cases, Federal 210M primers, and moly-coated Sierra 168-grain HPBT Match Kings. However, what works for me is not necessarily sure to work for you. Go buy handloading manuals, READ them, work your loads up according to the published data, and don't trust ANY load you get off the Internet without working up to it slowly!
To Mike: As an answer to your question, "... is the Outers Foul Out system an appropriate cleaning setup for a sniper weapon system...?" I would have to say, "no." That is, unless you're planning on doing all your sniping from a garrison environment that has electrical outlets. Actually, I've started reading some negative comments about the Foul Out system with regard to bore life, but I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade, so if the system you're using is working well for you, then as I say, "go with what you know." For a "field" cleaning system, however, I'd look for a multi-piece COATED rod and clean via conventional methods. However, my personal preference (during a mission) would be to carry the type of cleaning kit that uses a coated "cable" to pull the brushes and patches through the bore. The concern I'm trying to point out is portability. Ideally, if you could pack both without any problems, then you'd be in pretty good shape. I'd also recommend "field snipers" do what they can to take along a modest set of gunsmithing tools, and that they also get some cross-training as armorers (maybe something like an "Armorer 101" course). At a minimum, figure out what can come loose on your rifle and carry the appropriate tool(s) to do the tightening. Scopes (rings and bases) will generally require Torx and/or Allen wrenches and PROPER, FOR-THE-JOB screwdrivers. I'd also recommend taking at least one small brass punch with you, and a rubber or plastic mallet. (Obviously, "pounding noises" are not tactically "cool." Discretion is advised.) All of these things I've mentioned, collectively, account for very little weight and require only a small amount of space (for packing), and woe to the shooter who needs them and didn't bring them. Whether you take a cleaning kit and/or a small set of tools with you into the field, it is ALWAYS a good idea to check the various fasteners on your weapon system before embarking on your mission, whatever that may be.
To Fred: I'm looking forward to seeing you on the cover of Soldier
of Fortune magazine in the near future! I'm glad you could make it to the
charity shoot.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 02:13:34 (EDT)
92 bushing:
Dont fiddle with the slide.
Turn down the forward portion of the barrel for the lenght of the
slide´s bushing reducing the dia. about 1,5 mm.
then make a collar the same length but about 1 mm larger than your
max. slide dia. The inside should be tight enough so that it does not fit
the turned down barrel unless heated up nice and hot on momey´s stove.
Once the collar is on the barrel you can fine tune the now thicker barrel
to your slide and finsh up the crown, glasbeadblast, reblue and it will
be hard to tell.
If you have problems with the above send the pistol to Cylinder
& Slide and tell Bill I send you.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 03:03:25 (EDT)
To Hans in BC Columbia:
Tikka and Sako rifles can be bought here at reasonable prices. Problem is that Sako TRG is not available as a left handed model at this time. Otherwise I would have had bought one already. If I pay up to 10.000 FIM i.e. 2000 USD I WILL have a left handed bolt on the rifle. Or I´ll not part from my money. If you didin´t guess it already, I´m left handed :-)
Tikka actions are available in left handed versions. Varmint version is not offered though. Actually only the basic hunting version is offered left handed off-the-shelf. On a custom order one can get any mixing of the components. Only problem is that one has to wait for it and pay extra. And Sako/Tikka do not offer any synthetic stocks for left handed models. And my rifle will have one in any case. Wood is out and plastic is in for me.
To Russell from the USA:
I meant with my "belted cases are more difficult to load" that they are more difficult to load to the max accuracy because headspacing on a belt. That belt is not that uniform on all brands (Federal might be different). Also I feel that the belt is not really needed on a proper sniper round. 338 Lapua Mag or 308 Win do not have one. So why bother ? Of course 300 Win Mag can be loaded to be very accurate as it is loaded for 1000 yard competition, I know that. I have also heard that one has to give much more TLC to belted cases meant to be used in target shooting than what is neede with regular non-belted-cases. Probably this is more of a "what I believe or like" than what is really the "truth", if there ever is any.
Problems in this part of the world cause also the fact, that almost no one here competes with a 300 Win Mag and therefore match grade ammo is not readily available. Of course one can order a case or too, but it takes easily 6 months to get your "special order Fedel 300 Win Mag Gold Metal Match". And these special orders tend to cost you an arm and leg. I think I´ll go with the 308 and look what my friends will acchieve with their custom order 338 LM´s.
I did not mean that the flash hiders lenghten the bore or rifling, I just thought that it is stupid to cut your barrel a little too short and then attach a flash hider and therefore lenghten the rifle to the old length. In 308 I would prefer a regular 26" barrel without any cadgets although a suppressor might be a nice addition, especially as they are not that costly here.
In any case thanks for your input. I´ll stay put for the Plaster stock report.
Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 08:32:20 (EDT)
Anyone recommend any literature on the military .50 cal SWS? Are there any FMs out on them yet? Also, anyone with desert sniping experience, please give me a shout.
Thanks alot.
Jeff W.
JOE R:
Did you get that package yet? Please give me a critique when you
get a chance.
Jeff W. <dog2197@aol.com>
VT USA - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 10:54:41 (EDT)
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
USA - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 14:01:22 (EDT)
To Hexa: I agree, it's idiotic to whack off the end of a barrel only to add length with a silencing or recoil-reducing device. I agree, belts on belted cases are not uniform in dimension. The popularity of belted-magnum power without belted cases is evident in the number of several new wildcats based on the .404 Jeffrey case. John Lazzeroni is one of a handful of rifle/ammo makers who offer "production" ammunition in some pretty impressive chamberings. Quite true, most shooters don't need the full capabilities of the .338 Lapua Magnum, and "lesser" chamberings provide sufficient utility.
To Dave Rolls: Ah, yes, you're "The Novak Man." I definitely remember
you. I'm hoping to take a course at SMTC later this year; if I do, I'll
drop you a line. We can get drunk and tell each other lies about what good
shots we are.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, May 15, 1998 at 04:34:59 (EDT)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, May 15, 1998 at 12:28:23 (EDT)
I've recently purchased one and installed my Remington Sendero 7mm Mag. receiver & barrell assembly into it.At the same time I installed my new B&L Elite 4000 6x24 scope as well (thanks Scott & Russell for your advice,this scope is excellent).
The stock was easy to install and required no bedding because of its aluminum bedding block (a really nice feature for sure).
All the reports about this stock being very heavy are correct.There is even a provision in the pistol grip to add more weight (ex. lead shot) in it.The added weight certainly tames the recoil,as full power 7mm Mag. loads feel no different than factory .308 powered loads.
The stock is a very user friendly piece with adjustments for length of pull,height of the recoil pad,and comes equiped with 2 cheek pieces.Also,the stock fore end is wide and flat and has a serrated edges supposedly to grip into sand bags.
The only complaint about this stock is its fit and finish or better put, lack there of.My stock shows machine marks and plastic over casts where the stock left the mould process.Those of you looking for a stock with the quality of finish work on par with a HS Precision or McMillan stock had better look eIsewhere.I also found the stock's texture to be significantly more rough than it needs to be.However,I can honestly say you can pick this stock up,even with a wet hand,and have little fear of dropping it.
My biggest pet peeve/let down was the inscription on the side of the stock that says in big print, "Choate Ultimate Sniper Stock by Maj. John Plaster".To me, this really ruined the finish of the stock and screams, "Arm Chair Commando !", to anyone who looks at the stock.
Despite my complaints I really am glad I bought the stock and would recommend it to anyone who would ask my humble opinion.This comfortable new stock coupled with my new scope have reduced my group sizes compared to my Sendero's origional stock and and previous scope.I think the big improvement was due more so to the glass than the stock.However, I cannot discount the fact that I just feel more comfortable shooting this stock tha the origional piece supplied with my Sendero.
By the way, I paid $330 Cdn. for my stock,including taxes and shipping.I
believe for the money I couldn't have done any better than I did.
Jeff B. <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, May 15, 1998 at 19:56:09 (EDT)
Excuse me for butting in.
Let me give you my 2 cents on aluminum bedding blocks. I'm quite certain that the bedding blocks are perfectly machined because they are done in one step. However rifle actions are machined in the annealed state, and then heated and quenched. What happens is that the action distorts a little and then it won't fit your aluminum bedding block as it should. A skim coat of epoxy is always a good thing.
Many years ago someone in Precision Shooting Magazine asked Remington why the 40-XBR action didn't have roll impressed markings on the side. They are etched or something similar. Mike Walker (father of the 722,721,700 line of rifles) said that they are finish ground on the outside to true them up with the centerline of the bolt hole. It was because of this heat treating distortion. The article hinted that it was quite a problem too. I'm pretty sure that only the receiver ring was heated inductively before quenching. The grinding was after hardening if my memory is correct.
Some actions may fit the Choate or H. S. Precision blocks fine, but I wouldn't count on it. A nice paint coat of epoxy will allow you to sleep better.
Steel benchrest actions are normally heat treated first before any machining. Tough on tooling, but the results are near perfection.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Friday, May 15, 1998 at 21:41:40 (EDT)
RIFLE SOUNDS FINE AS LONG AS NO AP TYPE AMMO THAT WILL DAMAGE STEEL IS USED. SOFT POINTS FINE. BASICLY THE EQUIPMENT RULES ARE WIDE OPEN WITH THE EXCEPTION OF AVOIDING ANYTHING THAT WILL DAMAGE TARGETS.
WE HAVE A VERY GOOD MATCH PLANNED, REALLY THREE AT THE SAME TIME, BUT WE NEED MORE SHOOTERS. LAST YEAR A SERIOUS PRARIE DOG HUNTER WON OVER ALL THE SHOOTERS WITH TITLES, SO ADVISE OTHER SHOOTERS THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE 'ON CALL' TO COMPETE. CARLOS NEEDS US TO PULL FOR HIM NOW.
THANKS, D LAUCK
So, lets get with it and give Gunny Hathcock a hand when he needs it. Who will answer the call ?! I'm in. How about YOU?
Note: Event is in Gillette, WY. There is also some sort of national convention occurring at the same time which has most of the hotel rooms booked at this date. Econolodge (307-682-4757) still has available rooms. Towers West Lodge, Holiday Inn, and Days Inn are full at this time. Check out Sniper Country's web link to D&L to get phone & fax numbers. David responds quickly to any questions.
God Bless the Gunny !!
Butch <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
N'awlins, LA USA - Saturday, May 16, 1998 at 01:06:14 (EDT)
What is the proper weapon for the second man (scout or spotter, whatever you want to call him) in a military sniper team? Opinions? Currently the Corps arms them with an M16 w/M203, but I hear rumors that we are moving toward a scoped M14. What does everyone think of this idea?
To Tim DelGrosso: I agree with you: a pistol is seldom a smart first
choice to take to a gunfight. But there are practical limits to one's ability
to carry a long gun of the right type all the time. A military sniper (prob'ly
police, too) is already carrying a whole bunch of gear. What's he gonna
do, drag along an M16 in case the fight gets up-close and personal? Or
a shotgun for the real close-up stuff, an M16 for 25-200 yards, and his
M700 for 300+? You see what I'm getting at. Not practical, I'm afraid.
And who's going to lug around a rifle everywhere they go, always have it
handy when the **** hits the fan? No one but a combat troop, that's who.
So I think pistols are appropriate for a little discussion, now and then.
If you gotta use an inferior weapon, you might as well not make it worse
by using a BAD inferior weapon! Just some thoughts.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Saturday, May 16, 1998 at 12:55:57 (EDT)
I'm not "qualified" to answer question, being a civilian and all, but I sure do love my Springfield M21, currently configured as the M25. I should think a variable powered scope on the M14/21/25 platform would be outstanding as a spotter's system, providing true backup to the main system, and providing good semi-auto suppressive fire. Now, if Scott Powers weighs in, he'll tell you how much he hates the M14 platform, but I think he feels that way because he fell in love with Mattel's finest while in the service.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, May 16, 1998 at 13:00:46 (EDT)
As a hunter and former sniper I have always wondered about the weight/hitting/kill-potential of sniperrifles. I'm used to drag a heavy sniperrifle or a scoped G3 around when in uniform. Carry a huntingrifle of similar weight is unthinkable. I've carried a militay pack weighing 30kg for days on end and dreamt about a ultralight longrange huntingrifle. A leightweight sniperrifle and a lightweight assaultrifle equal the weight of one regular sniperrifle without giving up anything in range and hittingpotential doesn't sound to bad either. The assaultrifle is for added comfortfactor when patroling behind enemy lines.
To retain shootability with a 3.5kg/7ibs lighweight sniper I think .308 is out. As a norwegian I prefer the 6.5X55 wich is much easier to control due to less recoil and has trajectories and winddrift similar to .300winmag/190gr/2900fps.
Now to the interesting part. Wich rifles fit the bill? My all time favourite american rifle is the Ultra Light Arms 20 in 6.5X55 topped with a Leupold M4 Mk3 with a 300WM ballistic cam. This is a genuine 1000yds rig weighing less than 3.5kg. ULA can make the mod.20 in a lot of interesting calibers. To name a few: 22-250/1-8" twist/80gr Sierra MK, .243win/1-8" twist/107gr VLD, 6/284 of 1000yds BR fame, etc. ULA rifles are made to BR specs and shoot like a dream. I've seen 3 and they all shot less than .5moa.
European rifles fitting the bill are even more provoking. How about a Blaser K 95 single shot kipplauf (break action like TC Contender) in a hot smallbore. This thing weighs 2.5kg plus scope. Blaser makes an exellent QD mount. Imagine a rifle with 1000yds capability thats a takedown that will fit inside your rucksack. I've shot one that fired 3 shot groups in .5moa taking the rifle apart between shots. Cal. was 7X65R, similar to 280rem. Use your favourite scope and you are still under 3.5kg.
Favourite assaultrifles can be discussed at www.assaultcountry.com :-)
Shoot back…
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, May 16, 1998 at 14:58:38 (EDT)
Interesting comments! Gee, maybe the sniper COULD carry both an M16 and a sniper rifle, if the sniper weapon were one of the ultra-lightweights you describe. I'm not a long-range shooter, though: what do all our real world snipers out there think about a 7-lb sniper system? Would the light weight be a detriment to long-range shooting under the conditions a military sniper will be operating in? Sgt Gillemie UP! Sound off! (Personally, I doubt the Corps would go for an odd-caliber sniper system---we like all our weapons to "eat" the same basic stuff----5.56, 7.62 NATO, 9mm Para.)
I think the M16 w/203, as issued now, is probably a poor backup to the main system, BUT if the bad guys were closing in, having the potential to lob grenades out to 300m+, actually do some damage to lightly armored vehicles, and lay down both smoke and illum would be reassuring. Also, the M16 would probably better'n even the M14 in a 50-yards-or-less, spray n' pray firefight against, say, a fireteam.
Of course a sniper's best friend under duress is a radio, but if it all goes way south, and the powers that be aren't sending the Cobras/arty/A-10s/AC-130s, ya gotta have SOMETHING on you to fight back with.
Keep it comin', fellas! Interesting stuff.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Saturday, May 16, 1998 at 17:05:04 (EDT) Matt,
my active duty sniper experience is made up of two man teams where each one carry´s a scoped G-3.
They were good for our assigned objectives at the time, as we were bound into our infantry squads, and can deliver a good share of firepower.
However i belive that a tradeof toward a bolt sniper rifle and a lighter M203 for the close in work would give the team (not the single individual) better tools for the job.
A 203 could be hopped up with an ACOG, Match barrel, Accu wedge,
and a decent trigger with overtravelstop, and be better than what all the
other animals in the jungle get their hands on.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, May 17, 1998 at 10:35:52 (EDT)
Bill: Hey, I'm a Marine! I know where Chesty won his fifth Navy Cross! But anyhow, yeah, I wasn't completely serious about the second rifle for the sniper. Sounds like too much, to me, and then there's the problem of having the right rifle ready when you need it and all. Still, it's provocative.
Kodiak: I'm afraid TorF was kidding about the www.assaultcountry.com thing. Don't feel bad, though---I tried it, too, just in case he WAS serious! Hahahahaha
Torsten: Now, your wunder-M16 idea is pretty cool! A reasonable backup to the main system, and you still get the firepower of the M16/M203 combo. I like it. The Corps has some pretty decent gunsmiths up at Quantico. Bet they could make a rifle like that, IF somebody in a position of authority decided it was a good idea, AND someone came up with the money for it. Only thing they'd have to do is come up with some match-grade ammo. Oughta be able to handle that. I may hafta write an article...plant the seed, so to speak.
Glad I asked again. This has been pretty good stuff. Anyone else,
chime in as you get the urge!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Sunday, May 17, 1998 at 20:11:56 (EDT)
In your quest for second weapon, some thoughts and observations. First of all I too have heard of the change to M14 by the Corps. Guess they are triing to copy the Army SO units who have carried the M21/M25 since issue of the M24. We are now looking at dropping the M21/25 in favor of another weapon. This could be the SR25, AR10, modified, again, M21, or any of several others presently in testing. There is a very real need for a second defense weapon for the team but also the second weapon must be able to complete the mission or fire in a target rish environment. Hence our specs of accuracy to 600 meters, semi-auto, reliable, and durable.
As far as primary having a second gun, this has been done with the CAR-15 during SEA. We would not travel in our assigned areas with just a bolt gun! However, there is a draw back in as much as some shoot when it was unnecessary and thus compromised themselves. This is a problem with a gun that shoot a lot of bullets. Right now we are looking at the issue M4 carbine with mod kit for as the second rifle for the primary sniper. Yes it is alot of weight but ask the guys in SWA who went in with over 150 pounds for extended missions. You do what must be done with what you have.
As I said, just some thoughts and observations on what has been done and what is being looked at.
Torsten - Your country man is still in the course and should graduate
Thursday. He thinks his roommate knows you. He'll have what I think you
need.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, May 17, 1998 at 20:45:25 (EDT)
Thanks for the time and a great site
Dan <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Fairbanks, Ak USA - Sunday, May 17, 1998 at 22:32:34 (EDT)
To Matt: Ideally, the spotter has a weapon capable of automatic fire that can provide killing and suppressing fires at a distance suitable to allow the sniper team to move to a secure location. Depending on the branch of service, the politics of the day will dictate the spotter's weapon.
As for lightweight sniper systems... don't be surprised if you see Christianson Arms submit a candidate rifle, chamber for some heavy-hitting cartridge, with a muzzle brake (to help with the recoil, which would likely be a concern in such a rifle). I've held one of these rifles, and you would not believe how incredibly light they are!
To Will Adams: You'll find instructions for adjusting your Savage's
trigger on our Articles and Commentary page.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 03:04:27 (EDT)
i forgot the skimpy stock on the M16/203, the modified back up / or main supplement weapon, needs a better stock with a cheek piece and a easy and fast way of lenghtening the stock.
Voere of Austria make an exellent semi auto sniper rifle with an
accuracy one would expect from a good bolt gun.
I have one in 7,62X51 and shoot it at matches were i can compete
and win against bolt rifles.
Rick,
thanks again for your help, I´ll visit with him asap and will
let you know when i have hands on.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 03:10:37 (EDT)
I had already thought of the stock issue....I'd prefer to see a rifle with that stupid "carrying handle" milled off, but if that wasn't possible, cheek piece would be good.
Rick:
Yeah, unfortunately, being the red-headed stepchildren of the budgeting process, the Corps often ends up following the Army's lead---10 years late, when the gear is obsolete or has been proven a poor idea!
(When I was new to the FMF, I was calling for fire one day up on OP 12, in your neck of the woods....Army captain and a major walked up....the captain looked at my radio---a PRC-77---and said to the major "what's that?" Guy had never seen a PRC-77; the Army had had the SINCGARS fielded for 10 years already, and the Corps hadn't even started!)
Anyhow, personally, I like Torsten's accurized M203 combo. Gives you the best of both worlds. I don't know how a 5.56 would perform at range from a weapon like that. I do know that any Marine can hit a man-sized target w/the iron sights on a stock M16 at 500 m, so with scope, good ammo, accurized weapon, and an especially good shooter, who knows what's possible. 600m is probably doable! Then you get 3-rd burst (I'd be just as happy to see full auto, on this weapon, and trust the scout to have a little fire discipline) and the array of 40mm munitions. I really, really like it, and I think it has all the advantages of most of the other ideas offered, plus some. You oughta suggest it to whatever Echelons Above Reality are working on this for you guys, see what happens.
Time to go to work.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 05:23:00 (EDT)
Russell, Mr. Bain, et al, I promise this doesn't mark a departure
into prolonged discussions of machine guns! "Discussions of machine guns
are more appropriate at www.machineguncountry.com"
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 05:49:36 (EDT)
Tony the Tiger
USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 07:50:59 (EDT)
Fred
Fred Fischer <fischer.f.c@postal.essd.northgrum.com>
Glen Burnie, MD USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 09:23:20 (EDT)
Keep up the good work!
TCB
Thomas Bradshaw <SNC59@aol.com>
Delphi, IN USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 12:12:17 (EDT)
I never gave much consideration to putting some epoxy on the my rifle's stock because it seems to turn decent groups.My best 3 shot group has been .309 moa,and my average works out to be .790 . Can you tell me if this is good accuracy for a 7mm Magnum ?
Hey,if I thought it would help it would take little time or effort to take the stock off and put some epoxy on the bedding block surface.Good idea.Have you seen any particular instances where a stock with an aluminum bedding block required any epoxy ?If so,why was it necessary ? Was it the rifle or the stock's fault ?
Russell,you mentioned before there will be an evaluation on this stock in the near future.Have you had a chance to see or try out Gunsite/Plaster's new stock based on the Accuracy International style design.Do you plan to do a report on it as well ?
Thanks.
Jeff B <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 12:36:51 (EDT)
Steve <swingert@ida.net>
Island Park, ID. USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 13:26:43 (EDT)
I like to cook wild game. I collect recipes.
"If you can kill it, I can cook it"
Dan Cedusky <coloneldan@usa.net>
Urbana, IL USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 14:41:38 (EDT)
James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 17:30:38 (EDT)
Come on, man, what rifle did you order?
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 18:19:11 (EDT)
A Texas Brigade Armory M40A1 (.308) with a Leupold 4.5-10x Tactical
(mil-dot) scope. I'll let know what I think of it when I actually get my
hands on it - I'm told the ETA is 6-7 months. If I luck out and get it
early maybe I can bring it to Whittington in October for some longer-range
testing (I can only get out to 200 yards locally.)
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 19:51:44 (EDT)
Q1. I have just purchased a Savage 110FP in 25-06 and after reading what someone said about a sniper leaving their rifle for 6 hours normally or 2 hours in the dead of winter to cool to make sure that the cold barrel zero is correct, I was wondering if there were any tips people could offer me as to the timing between shots in shooting a group? Would leaving the action open as long as possible between shots better facilitate barrel cooling etc? I am new to this sport and I am just looking to start out on the right foot.
Q2. I would also like to hear from anyone who has experience in running sniper competitions with regard to a reasonable timeframe for shots and timings, eg x shots in y minutes at z yards. I didn't compete in the last sniper competition my club held but I watched with interest when the people were expected to fire 20 shots in 5 minutes. The club is a military firearms club, not specifically designed around long range precision, and the people that design the shoots are used to using Lee-Enfield 303's, Mauser 6.5 x 55's and 8mm's and Springfield 30-06's in rapid fire events. This does not fit well with the "One Shot One Kill" credo of the sniper in my opinion and I would like some information to give to them about possible courses of fire.
Thanks.
Dave.
Dave Groves <David.Groves@dao.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 20:12:47 (EDT)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., OhioTo Dave Groves: USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 21:16:43
(EDT)
It sounds as if you have quite an accurate rifle there. Next time you are at the range shoot some 10-shot groups. Do it very slowly so as not to heat the barrel. My feeling is that your tiny groups will not be quite so small. Three or five shoot groups can not be relied on. We all get tiny 3 or 5 shot groups occasionally (statistical flukes), but when we try to extend them to 10-shots we find what the rifle is REALLY capable of. This is a group that you can count on..... day in and day out. And that is what we want. I could be all wrong here and you do have a rare rifle.
If it was my rifle, and I wanted to see if the action matched the V-blocks correctly, I would use the old benchrest technique with a dial indicator.
Let me explain. What I do is to position a dial indicator on the barrel at the end of the forestock and have its stem touch the underside of the stock where the bipod would be located. The rifle will be in the vertical position with my hand around the receiver and stock. Then I loosen and retighten the action screw under the receiver ring and watch for movement on the indicator. What I want to see is no more than .0015" or .002 of an inch movement at most. If everything looks good here, then I do the same to the rear action screw looking for the same amount of movement.
If you see more than .002 or .003 of movement that means that you
are stressing your receiver to fit the stock. If you don't see any movement
at all that is a bedding fault also, and means that the action is constrained
and that is not what we want either. So keep movement between .0005" and
.002" and you will have a good fit.
.
Actions wiggle around a little when a shot is fired and you want
them to "float" back to the exact spot it was on the previous shot. Only
in a perfect bedding condition will this happen.
This is not a treatise on bedding, but some other things I would look for would be:
1.) Action screws should not rub the stock.
2.) Back side of the recoil lug should bear "perfectly" against
the stock. Hard to have happen without bedding compound. Mating a flat
to another flat is almost impossible in this situation. Too many thing
to go wrong.
a.) Is the receiver faced off squarely? No.
b.) Is the recoil lug perfectly true? No.
c.) Is the mortise in the stock perfectly square? No.
See what I mean. We need a dab of bedding compound there.
3.) The magazine should float in the stock, and should not rub anything.
Epoxy or tig weld it to the action. The bottom of the magazine should not
quite touch the floorplate either.
4.) Of course the trigger, safety lever, and bolt handle should
not touch the stock.
5.) Some bedders also bed the first couple of inches of the barrel
ahead of the action. Optional, works either way. But it is a good idea
as it assists the action in supporting the heavy barrel.
6.) I like to bed under the receiver ring and tang only, and not
have anything in between. There is nothing to rub the action rails and
prevent the action from floating back to its previous position. Others
bed all the way back and are successful.
7.) If your action has a middle screw it normally should not be
tight. Just draw it up lightly. Otherwise you will pull the middle of the
action down.
8.) As far as bedding the recoil lug goes there are a couple of
ways to do it. Some people provide for only clearance under the lug with
a tight fit on the front, sides, and rear of the lug. Others only bed the
backside. Both ways work. I like to lightly dust the back side of my recoil
lugs with moly powder. During barrel vibrations the recoil lug "works"
a little against the stock, and this assures me that it doesn't stick a
little. This wasn't my idea but I read it in an article by the late Creighton
Audette. He was a long time accuracy gunsmith and High Power rifle shooter;
and quite a thinker. He is the one who proved that case wall thickness
errors can cause groups to open up. He proved it by firing alternate shots
at 300 yards, first with the thin side of the case wall oriented to the
left and then oriented to the right. His model 70 would print two quite
distinct small groups beside each other. Finally, a group shot with just
random orientation of case wall errors and predictably it was much larger
than the others. This was all documented in the American Rifleman and in
other sources many years ago. It was quite a long article.
This is just "food for thought". I'm certain that I left some things out.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 21:52:40 (EDT)
With the sniper competition, we have very few people using Enfields etc, we have a separate sniper section for "historical", "replicate" and "modern" sniper rifles to the standard rifle section. The standard military rifle section shoots at larger targets employing volley fire etc. Whereas the Sniper sections shoots at IPSC style targets at all ranges and is employing mostly Remington 700PSS's and now my Savage 110FP. Since we have had Semi-Auto's banned things just aren't the same.
The score divided by time option should work well with those who are looking to seriously compete and score well thanks for the idea, but to get through a fair number of shooters in an afternoon with limited range capacity, we really need to set a time that people simply HAVE to be completed in.
As for disqualifying 303 shooters, we had a competition recently between L-E's and Mausers, even with the 10 round removable magazine capacity, the Mausers (I was shooting an Israeli Mauser in .308) kicked ass all over the Lee-Enfields.
Dave.
Dave Groves <David.Groves@dao.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 22:26:48 (EDT)
Obviously he thinks the old British Army volley fire technique is unfair. Fastest way on Earth to rapid fire a bolt gun. If forty thousand Northwest Tribesmen could vote, they'd disqualify No4's too.
Grasp the bolt knob with thumb and index finger. Take up the first pressure with the best-placed of the other fingers. Fire and cycle the bolt as fast as possible.
The Canadian Army has a series of matches one of which requires the shooter to drop from standing to prone and whack ten rounds at a figure target in 30 seconds. Easy for semi's but tougher for bolt actions with a stripper clip reload in between. My father won 5 Queen's Medals for Champion Shot winning matches like this. (Two medals with No4's and three with FNs.)
So Steve, why penalize shooters who are smart enough to know what to shoot and how to use it?
Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 23:08:55 (EDT)
Matt - when is the Corps going to take the army's lead and give the 240G a scope like we have - gotcha! You should see this cute little screw up. We swapped MGs this year.
Remember guys, the back up gun means do the mission as well not just get my butt out of trouble. The M16/203 doesn't work for that. Yes extra gear is a pain, but remember go deep and stay long means humping your can off with way too much weight, but you can't avoid it.
Keep stirring the pots guys, these conversations are the best for
getting ideas out and yes I go to higher with some of your ideas.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, May 18, 1998 at 23:11:28 (EDT)
After some reflection I feel the article was a very good plus for the sniping community (considering the current 'anti-gun', 'anti-second amendment' climate in the country) It did not portray the competitors as 'rabidredneckwhitetrashbeerdrinkinshootemups'. In it's own way it did reflect upon the 'science' of ballistics, the need for self control, discipline, and the reason for the event....to help a wartime Hero.
IMHO it was a plus for the sniping community.
My respects to all who have where I have not.
Butch <theuniverse@compuserve.com>
N'awlins, LA USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 02:22:41 (EDT)
Thanks, Matt, cracked me up! Thanks.
To Jeff: Yes, yes, yes. "Soon." I'm leaving for a one-week bear hunt this Friday, and I SWEAR TO GOD that Plaster stock is going to be my first priority when I get back! (Jeff, if you only knew how the Legal Editor beats down the door to his Editor-in-Chief's office on this matter, well....)
To Tom Scott: I want the information you have on the "other" Savage triggers!!!
To Dan: The second option.
To Lorenzo: Kinetic bullet pullers won't work with .378 Weatherby Magnum cases. Just a point for thought. No problem, I've ordered the appropriate collet for my RCBS puller.
To Dave: Thanks for the heads-up on the AR-15 and API E-mail lists (regarding the WSJ article). I was as shocked as anyone that it was smack dab in the middle of the front page!
To Dave Groves: Air or water, flowing through the barrel, will help cool it. Opening the action facilitates this.
To Ron: I agree with your #5. On my .416 Remington Magnum and my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum, a couple of inches of bedding for those VERY heavy barrels is the order of the day.
To Rick: Ug. Me no think I have-um problem. Ug. Me thought-um I understood you first time. What exactly-um is your problem? Ug. Me will try to answer. Ug. (*Reminds me of when I went to Air Assault School. Had to find "deficiencies" in each of several slung loads. The instructor said, "If you panic, and can't remember the name of the deficiency, just point at it and go "Ug! Ug!" and we'll give you credit, as long as you're right."*)
My general comments on the WSJ article: I think it was good overall, but I couldn't help feeling that it had a "psychotic killer" flavor sprinkled throughout. Maybe it's just the way I read it. And reread it. And re-reread it. Still, I thought it did a good job of making the points that "snipers" are not your Oswald types, that they are professionals. I was VERY explicit on those points during my interview with Mr. Sterba. I feel the article "might" help non-shooters understand the roles of the military and law enforcement sniper, as well as how civilian shooting really can be recreational.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 08:01:49 (EDT)
I just read the Wall Street Journal article and I must say
"WELL DONE!" I would be interested in learning more about
your organization, especially if there is anyone in the
Atlanta GA area. I do not have any military experience, but
have always had respect and admiration for snipers. I would
be interested in know where and what to do to get started in
this activity.
Thank you!
John Hayes <hayesj@sprintmail.com>
Peachtree City, GA USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 08:52:46 (EDT)
I received a spec sheet from a well known german govt. institution about the upcomming purchase of suppressed sniper rifles.
Here some of the main cornerstones for your kind comments.
max shooting distance 120 Meters
shooter must be capable of hitting within 10 cm dia at above dist.
temp range -20°C to + 50°C
Barrel live 5000 rds.+
action,trigger ,stock 10.000 rds. +
springs and extractor 5000 rds.+
right hand manipulation with possible left hand adaptation
saftey for drop and shock
minimum recoil and torque
smooth outside
kaliber ?
projectile ? under 320m/sek.
bolt action
energy greater than 600J at the muzzle
signature less than 90 dB(a) 1 Meter at 90°
Dimensions: L <1200mm, H including scope <270mm, W < 100mm
Weight w/o scope but with filled mag. < 7 kg
lock up of the bolt in the barrel !
ejected cartridge must leave toward the right front
loaded condition must be visible and feelable from the shooters
position,
Mag. capacity 5 rds.
Trigger : adjustable for length 10mm, slack 1-2mm,weight 8-13N,
travel after release.5-1 mm
etc etc etc.
As the rest of the six pages are along the above specs the whole
german firearms industry has dropped the ball on them.
Since they do not intend to fund a studdy or prototype,
and may only buy 10 rifles.
Any comments so far ?
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 08:57:32 (EDT)
If my memory serves me right, don't you have a few of these?? If
you twist hard enough I'll probably have it by Friday, so some good loads
would also be in order just in case you might have one!! Later, JRM
JRMoore
Somewhere, USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 13:44:37 (EDT)
I don't know as much about sniper rifles as most people here, but
I bet there's a rifle in existence somewhere that meets their specs exactly,
and they know it.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 18:08:33 (EDT)
"So Steve, why penalize shooters who are smart enough to know what
to
shoot and how to use it?"
Just to keep friendly competition from turning into an all out equipment
race. That is what ends up happening in this country all the time.
Plus, I like my Enfield to much to abuse it like that.
To Dave Groves:
I have seen a team of Royal Marines get off as many as 35 aimed
shots
a minute with the Enfield. 200 yards at man sized targets. So if
you want
guidelines, there would be a good place to start, As to the maximum
rate of
fire, No one knows for sure just how many is possible. I think it
is possible
to fire as many as 60 rounds per minute if one is willing to use
the Lee-
Enfield as a crew served weapons platform.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 18:19:06 (EDT)
Thanx
Sgt. G.
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 18:58:36 (EDT)
More food for thought.
Ron N.
-----------------------
snipped heavily..... My 700VSSF came with a quality stock, so poorly
fitted to the gun that the action never settled into the aluminum bedding
block until the action was
epoxy bedded, the forestock was contacting the "free floated" barrel,
and the bolt was jammed against the stock when the action was cocked. A
little judicious tuning was all that was required to make this one shoot
decently, but it would seem that an extra fifteen to thirty minutes of
labor could be performed at the factory without unduly raising prices on
these rifles.
-------------------------------------
Actually, I have an interesting little anecdote that describes the
state of affairs among the factory gun makers. About three years ago, BlackStar
was engaged to consult with one of the Big Four about some problems that
they were having with their barrels. I spent quite a bit of time with the
"barrel team" at this particular company, and the root
of their overall problem soon became very evident - simply put,
they had no passion for their product at all.
As amazing as it might sound, the factory's chief engineer for barrels
was a young guy who had no qualms about admitting that he had 1.) never
fired a gun, 2.) had no present interest in firing a gun, and 3.) had no
intention of ever firing a gun in the future. To him, the barrel he was
making had no more significance that any other widget, and the quality
of the product reflected his (and his team's) lack of understanding and
enthusiasm about guns in general and rifle barrels in particular. Some
of his comments still reverberate in my mind when this subject comes up...
----------------------------------
The worst part of it is, as the name replies PSS , Police Sharp
Shooter, designed to be used in a situation where extreme accuracy is essential
in life or death situations.
I guess the extremely long throat (at least half the barrel length)
and the "wide Bore" allow for many thousands of rounds to be fired before
it becomes clogged with residue, providing longer shooting pleasure between
cleanings
Thanks Remington
----------------------
> I don't know just how much time and $$$ I would bother to spend
on a new Remington barrel. While I have several older ones that shoot quite
well, some of the more recent examples I have seen have been so bad it's
hard to understand how they could even get them screwed onto the reciever!
One recent example was bent in two directions and another had an unrifled
section on one side near the muzzle!
----------------------------
A friend purchased a .223 Remington PSS (composite stock, etc.)
last year and was disappointed that it wouldn't shoot less than 1.5 inches
at 100 yards. After fiddling with it a while, it was determined that the
last 2 inches of the barrel was sans rifling!
------------------------
Speaking of Remington barrels, My brand new 700PSS, supposed "accuracy
out of the box", in .308 has a bore diameter of >.310, Now that's quality
control!
Quotation marks are mine......Ron N.
Sorry to bear the bad news.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 19:07:41 (EDT)
Leupold´s 3.5-10 40mm tactical (no adjustable objective)- does
it accept a sun shade or not?
And what about paralax?
Leupold 4.5x14 40mm,adjustable objective and sun shade, but what
happens if you have to adjust the objective in a hurry? I used to hunt
rabbits (I´m not a sniper, sorry) using a Bushnell Trophy 6x18 40mm
but the adjustable obective slows my reaction time, something I believe
to be quite critical.
So before I spend my hard earned mony on some "zippeddy-doddah"
scope (please forgive me), I would be gratefull to hear all your wise comments
and advices.
P
Pedro Marcos <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, - PORTUGAL - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 19:11:42 (EDT)
Time to move up to Accuracy International, I guess.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 19:46:25 (EDT)
Could not help but notice the post about the "Ultimate Sniper" stock. We evaluated a first run of it over a year ago and unlees a lot has changed, it is a poor stock.
It is very poorly balanced, front end flex like mad, the little plastic wing nut adjustments lasted about two or three days, fore end too wide for the Choate BR, VERY heavy and the bedding block...ah, the bedding block -- the block is a V-block (yuk). At best, this type of block provides 4 points of contact (4 small points)...three is more realistic. The action still had to be bedded to fill the over 0.100 inches behind the recoil lug...on and on...
Anyway, just venting.
The American Special Operations Sniper Association
K.L. Davis <asosa@cros.net>
Port Clinton (Camp Perry), OH USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 20:15:51
(EDT)
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 21:50:49 (EDT)
Bill,
Let me quote Mark Strouse of Black Star again. He did have an opinion
on the current Winchester rifles.
"In my estimation, USRAC is in the best position right now -- the massive cash infusion they received in 1992-93 from GIAT was used to purchase brand new machining centers, etc. Quality is generally very good on their actions and even their barrels are often quite excellent when compared to those currently in production by other factories..."
Finally......some good news.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, May 19, 1998 at 22:14:27 (EDT)
I am sorry to hear your Rem report. As I have just ordered two rifles to be delivered in June. I´ll check them 110 %.
On the matter of bore dia. and throat length it may also be the product liabilety? lawyers riding the backs of the R&D folks. I am sure the barrel has a lot less PSI than a nice and tight one.
Here is your pay back for sending everyone to law school in the seventies.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 03:36:45 (EDT)
This does not mean the the M1A or M21 are not good systems, it just means that you must be extra careful with them,can never drop them, and must maintain them to a higher degree than the mouse gun or bolt gun.
My preference for the AR type rifle mostly stems from its relative indiference to many of the problems that plague the M14. It is also probably 100% more acccurate in a well built custom rifle. Just an example: John Feamster, Precision shooting Columnist, has actually competed in a Benchrest match with his AR based space-gun and placed well in the event. We are talking about a group of shooters who think that 1 moa is a pathetic joke and would be embarrassed by such BIG group! Feamster shot a 200 yard group that measures something like .235". I doubt anyone can make the case that an M21 could even come close to this potential.
BUT, in the end, the Bolt gun is still the way to go in a field environment, as it is the most robust of all. At least in terms of military actions. It would seem that police could really benefit from basing their systems on the AR as they NEED total accuarcy. With the advent of the big AR's, a shooter could easily have an AR in just about any .308 size caliber: 243, 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm-08, what ever.
Observer weapons (military): Tough choice. I think the current AR/M203
combo makes a lot of sense as shit happens and it usually happens CLOSE.
The need for a .308 as an obsevers rifle has less merit in my opinion,
unless the theater of operation includes lots of open terrain. Just my
thoughts, for what they are worth.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 09:19:22 (EDT)
Just got my PSS back from the smith. I learned a valuable lesson I had known, and FORGOT. The problem with aluminum Bedding blocks: They are machined to, but do not necessarily MATCH, your receiver! Mine only made contact at two points up front, and due to some stock material getting in the way, made NO contact at all along the length of the receiver. When you torqued the stock properly, the action actually bent a little. Nor could the bolt close all the way as the factory groove was not open enough! It is amazing that this rifle could hold a half inch at all! Morel: Check your bedding guys, your rifle might be a lot more accutate than you think. Do not trust "V" blocks, full length blocks, or ANY factory bedding. IF you are serious about accuacy, have your bedding checked by a qualified smith, preferable one that builds High Power match rifles. This is critical. The H.S. Precision stock is a good unit, but it does not match Remington round receivers very well. I have heard this from about five sources now. All legit.
Second item. The receiver face was not square. Not even close. The barrel actually pointed left. Again, for such a "lemon", it is amazing it shot so well as is.
So, I am left with the uncomfortable desire to blast Remington for
such a screw up, but at the same time, I am willing to conceed that the
bloody thing shot very well EVEN with the built in problems. OY.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 09:40:37 (EDT)
Lastly, I had hoped that there would have been some mention of what those interested in helping the Hathock's could do. Just becasue the event is over does not mean that those willing can not help. Be it contributions to the Hathcock's or to the various organizations trying to battle MS, the need is still there and could have been mentioned.
All this aside, as an Editor of a national shooting magazine just told me via phone: "don't sweat it, when looked at in light of today's media anti-gun sentiment, the article was a raging success."
Again, I thank all of you who contributed to the event, to the Hathcock's and to making the match as success.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 12:12:04 (EDT)
BTW, have you set up a date for next years CH competition?? I want
to give my "eyes" in Georgia enough time to get off work this time!!!!
Later
JRMoore
Somewhere, USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 12:23:29 (EDT)
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, , WA USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 13:24:39 (EDT)
Regarding Scott's appraisal of the WSJ article: I have to agree on several points. Yes, I know it's probably as "pro gun" of an article as the WSJ ever gets. However, I too was concerned about the title, and the "psychotic killer" flavor sprinkled throughout the piece. I thought it would have been more about the charity than about "us killers" who were working it or participating in it. Still, being the first exposure some of us have had to "the press" at large, I suppose it wasn't as bad as it could have been. It's also safe to say that lessons (ours) were learned in talking to the press. I was also rather dismayed that Carlos' condition was mentioned more as an afterthought, saved until the very last. Still, let's not be to politically correct here. Snipers do, from time to time, take "the shot." That's a given. However, as I stressed to Mr. Sterba of the WSJ, the primary mission of the sniper is to gather intelligence. I emphasized a number of other points that he didn't include, or included but not in a way that I would have liked. Still, if nothing else, Carlos' picture (taken, I suspect, from the Sniper Country website) made it onto the front page of the WSJ, the nation's most widely circulated newspaper (even over USA Today). The article did, though not in a way that some of us would have liked, draw attention to the fact that Carlos is sick and that a lot of people still care enough about him to want to help. The article, while relatively accurate in what it said, was somewhat sensationalized in my opinion, focusing largely on "killers in American society" and what such people do in their "off" time. As pointed out, though, it's as good of a story as we could ever hoped to have gotten printed in the WSJ.
On bedding: Basically, the bedding is the first thing I attend to.
Further, lapping the locking lugs so full contact is made between the bearing
surfaces is very important to accuracy and very often ignored. Yes, lapping
the lugs will likely mean needing the barrel set back to correct for the
change in headspace -- but it's all part of the game, boys. With accuracy,
there's probably three levels: production, gunsmith-improved, and custom.
Most of us put our money into production guns and hope for the best. Some
of us can afford "tune ups" over time, and that's where a competent gunsmith
comes into play. Only a few of us can afford totally custom-built rifles.
In each of these categories, accuracy is "usually" commensurate with what
you spend. As I often say, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to
go?" This is true in ANY activity. So, you should get what you pay for,
but bedding a barreled action into a stock is not something that should
be overlooked just because it's a "fancy" aluminum bedding block, or pillars,
or a synthetic stock, or whatever. Refer to my previous comments, in an
earlier post, about two different items that are machined and are intended
to be mated together. Don't ignore the importance of a good bedding job.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 15:06:36 (EDT)
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 16:07:10 (EDT)
Nathan,
OK, You asked for it. Someone asked Mark about the Savage line of
rifles.
Also, here is BlackStar's website.
http://benchrest.com/blackstar/
Question: (name withheld)
What do you think of the quality from Savage's barrels? There have been some very positive reviews in PS regarding the 112 series from this maker.
Answer:
The typical Savage barrel can be summed up in one word - PARADOX.
Today, our customers send us about 4,000-4,500 barrels in our shop annually
for BlackStar Accurizing. Most are factory barrels, and probably about
15 percent of them are Savage products. Having borescoped a lot of these
Savage barrels over the past several years, I still never fail to be astonished
that these barrels produce that sort
To put a definable number on it, allow me to make this approximate
comparison. The typical custom barrel will score about 10 micro-inch Ra
in the bore. The typical Remington or USRAC bore surface will score about
25-30 Ra. A Savage barrel often will score in the 40-45 Ra range.
Which brings me to my real point. Yes, the Savage barrels will shoot
a three or five shot group very well. I have personally shot many of their
bolt guns, and they do have a phenomenal tendency to shoot very, very well
for an out-of-the-box factory gun. Groups in the .500 inch range
When I got back to the shop, I pushed a Hoppe's patch and a dry patch
through the bore to remove the loose powder fouling, and then borescoped
the barrel. It was heavily coppered up from about two inches ahead of the
throat to the muzzle. I'm talking one long copper tube, for all intents
and purposes. The build-up was quite heavy as well, and it took me a long
time to get it all out. In my experience, the aforementioned tale is merely
the umpteen thousandth verse of the same old Savage song....
There is one other thing that is worthy of note and may have a lot
to do with the Savage barrels' accuracy. Many of them are typically a bit
on the tight side. Of course, taken together with massive surface roughness,
this slight tightness would also tend to increase fouling. For us at BlackStar,
the tightness is a boon, as it allows us to do
Having given you an answer, I also think it bears mentioning that
Savage obviously makes its rifles to a very inexpensive price point, and
given that fact, the quality they produce can only be called amazing. I
am not crazy about the rifles personally, but I have a lot of admiration
for what they are able to produce at their price point and for the way
that Ron Coburn turned the business around. It wasn't too long ago that
the company had to purchase even their toilet paper COD.
In closing, I would not consider the action to be a good basis for
a custom rifle, but that is not what most folks buy them for. There are
a number of positively ingenious production solutions that go into the
making of Savage rifles, not the least of which is the aesthetically
So there you have it. The good, the bad, and the ugly.
I noticed that for the last few weeks things have been getting pretty
"slow" (technically) on this board. These last few postings are sure to
liven things up a little.
Don't anyone tell Mark that I reposted his reply. I'm doing this
for the "public good" only.
The best US rifle I've seen in the last couple of years are the Win
M70 varmint, ss-barrel/HS-stock. This rifle is at least one order of magnitude
better than the Rem 700VS's I've seen lately. Stiffness of action or not
the M70's shoot rings around the 700's in extended matches. I use a 700VS
in .223 to shoot running deer competition, the old olympic event. I got
the 700VS last year but I'm going to sell it and get a M70 or a Blaser
R93 HB insted. I'm not going to spend money on that 700. Trigger is terrible,
the barrel looks like a farmfield and the action has too great tolerances.
I know how a 700 action should be because I also own a 40XR KS. The latest
M70's only need a triggerjob to be acceptable. My experience on the M70
varmint are 3 rifles in .308 and one in .223. Why the M70 seems to be ignored
by US shooters is unbeleaveable to me. As a sniper you can even take the
bolt apart in the field for inspection. Try that on a 700 without tools.
The Blasers ( or Sauer/Steyr/Sako ) are ofcource more expensive than
the US rifles but only by 20-25% in europe. On quality there is no match.
US rifles can't compare. I've seen that Tikka rifles are sold quite cheap
in the US. Try one. I think they have the best price/quality combination
of any rifle at the moment. The action looks like the old Shilen DGA with
added features. The barrel and trigger is the same as on Sako. McMillan
used to make the M40 sniperstock for the old M55. I have an old Tikka M55
Supersporter in .308 that is going to get its 3rd barrel. I'll try to get
a H&K MSG90/PSG1-barrel for the M55. Expected barrellife is 20-30000
rounds.
TorF
TorF,
Stuart Otteson had an excellent article in the May-June 1981 RIFLE
magazine dealing with action stiffness. He is an engineer who is also a
shooter, and has written several books on bolt actions. I highly recommend
his book THE BOLT ACTION. I believe there was a second book dealing with
bolt actions that are not pertinent to this particular Rem./Win. thread.
Anyhow, in this magazine article he analyzed various benchrest actions
plus the Rem 700, 40-XBR, and Pre-64 Win 70 actions on the basis of strength
in the vertical plane.
Let me reproduce one of the lead in paragraphs to give you a some
flavor as to the content of the highly technical article.
"A receiver varies in section along its length. I have arbitrarily
chosen to consider its cross-section midway along the loading port. Where
and how forces are applied can also vary. I have assumed that stresses
act vertically and are resisted in a plane through the centerline of the
action. Of course, the action doesn't bend and vibrate in just one direction,
and so rigidity in the horizontal direction could be calculated as well.
Finally, working from the action's centerline is also a practical expedient.
Strictly speaking, rigidity should be calculated by first determining the
centroidal axis. In most receivers, however, the metal is distributed evenly
enough to justify use of the center line."
The rest of the article dealt with such topics as modulus of elasticity
and moment of inertia of various metals. It wasn't a long article, but
was very "thick" on content.
In the end he summarized the results of his calculations, and this
is my interpretation.
Of the three factory actions the 40-XBR was by far the stiffest.
This was followed by the Pre-64, and THEN by the 700. The 700 only had
1/3 the rigidity of the Pre-64 Model 70 in the vertical plane.
Let me pull a quote out of the last paragraph.
I do realize that the present Win 70 doesn't have the same "deep
integral magazine shroud", but it is very close to it.
So the Winchester Model 70 is stiffer than the Remington 700.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ok, For what it is worth, here goes. Having never been in LE but
observing what you folks must do, I'd recommend a good heavy barrel carbine.
Flat top upper or modified A2 upper with handle cut off and scope rail
mounted. I'd like a very heavy 16 inch barrel. Short and stiff. I'd go
with a twist rate of 1:8. This will handle the heavier bullets you might
need for glass penetration, yet still stabilize the lighter, more lethal
bullets, if you choose to use them. If glass is not an issue, you may even
consider a twist in the 1:12 range. This will allow you to use the lighter
bullets to more dramatic affect as they upset easier in the human body,
causing more trauma. But most likely I'd stick with a 1:8 twist.
Free float the barrel under an knurled aluminum tube. I dislike the
fiberglass tubes only because my hand slips a little on them when hot and
sweaty.
Not sure what to say on the stock. Collapsable looks neat but has
little advantage over a standard one. About the only thing I could think
of where it would be nice is if you were wearing a tactical vest of some
sort. The standard stock has the added advantage of the storage compartment,
which, at least for me, is a much used thing!
For Optics: For daily use, I'd go with the AIMPOINT Comp M, or ML.
I just mounted one of these on my M4 carbine (civilian vesrion) and it
is excellent. The Aimpoint mount is low enough that your point of impact
is not drastically high at short range, and it is repeatable enough that
you can remove it and still be very close to zero when reinstalling it.
Using it the other day, I was able to zero for 25 yards and hit a steel
target at 200 repeatedly. It would seem that this would be more than sufficient
for police work. Best of all, as there is no magnification to deal with,
you can use the both eye open method with this optic and keep your situational
awareness up. Your field of view is unlimeted. Target acquisition is very
fast.
I'd also consider investing in a back up scope along more traditional
lines. This would give you medium range ability if needed, but you'd really
have to experiment to determine your zero's when mounting the scope. But
seriously, the Comp M would probably suffice for any normal situation.
It is faster than open sights, easier to use, and at close range, even
if the reticle goes "down" you can still make hits by sighting through
the tube.
Going with a full length rifle for patrol does not seem to have much
advantage unless you are the designated tactical shooter. Frankly, a well
built carbine is extrememly accurate at the ranges your are talking about.
Like I said, I am no police officer, but this is what I envision
as being a useful rig for the patrol car. Although I'd prefer you carry
in IN the car, not the trunk if your agency would allow it.
This help?
Kodiak
For all the negative things I pointed out in my previous PSS related
posting, the rifle, in untouched form, still shot into .5 to .65 VERY consistently.
But I had vertical stringing that drove me to distraction. The problem
was shown to be bending of the action in the HS stock, due to imperfect
bedding, and incorrect torque.
You could certainly make a case that it is incredible that ANY factory
rifle will shoot sub moa, considering what we know about them. But for
all their foibles, if you do not have a government or department paying
the bill, they are the only game in town. I am just thrilled that the at
least try a product improvement. Just think, the idea of a sub moa FACTORY
rifle was unheard of 30 years ago!
This was a pretty hard whack on the Savage Barrel. I am a big boy
but let me see if I can paraphrase what you are saying. Savage Barrell's
may accidentally fire tight groups, but won't for very long.
So, what is a boy to do when he just bought his first big toy and
an expert says it is a piece of dudu. Well this big boy will ask the question
what should I do? I haven't fired the gun, it is 308 with the barrell already
freeze dried and the trigger replaced and set to 2# starter pull (other
goodies as well). All reccomended by the eficianados(sp) on this site.
I saw the word "benefit", can you quantify this and if so;
I noted your list of what you have done, but is this what you reccomend
as well. Send me a note with the cost?
Tom,
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
I understand that Tactical Shooter will be doing a very thorough
piece on American and Euro. match ammunition sometime this year (I know
the author). I'd wait for that piece, before buying anything new. I think
you'll find some interesting stuff in the article. Oh, Hoplite, Inc., out
of Kentucky sells Federal Gold Medal ammo at a reasonable price.
The swedish M96 Mauser has been a sub moa rifle out of the box the
last century with proper ammo :-)
Workmanship is also a trifle better than what we are used to today.
The swiss Schmidt Rubin K31 is another sub moa rifle with stellar quality.
On the other hand. The Stengun is an exellent subgun, but I don't
care for the "quality". I'm not going to name any rifle the "Stengun" of
sniperrifles. I'm not suicidal!
TorF
Most commercial rifles in the West were not sub-MOA until the last
few decades. Sure, some commercial rifles were, but the majority were not.
Say what you want about today's production-line weapons, but they are better
than yesterday's. The fact of the matter is that the bar has been raised
significantly over the years and even though production rifles are better
than ever, we've come to expect even greater accuracy than is normally
possible with such rifles. Plus, as we've heard with Savages, production
rifles don't sustain accuracy the way that custom guns do.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
To Ron: Regarding Winchester actions, Bart Bobbitt has always had
some very positive things to say about Winchester actions. And the comment
about field-stripping the bolt without tools was, to me, VERY interesting.
THAT is the kind of utility I'm interested in.
Here in germany we use mostly hammer forged and button rifled barrelblanks.
It seems to me as if these do not need any lapping at all.
The inside shines like a diamond in a goats south end.
Only on the button rifled barrels we found that the inside bore and
outside (after being turned down between centers)in not always coaxial
and that some tool marks from the drilling process are visible on a cut
open barrel.
The hammer forged blanks are straight and true.
Also due to the process the button rifled blanks tend to be softer
since the button has to be pulled through a tighter hole wereas the hammer
forged ones are drilled and lapped oversize and then pounded back around
the negetive blank makingt he material even denser.
It is always amazing to see a foot long section of raw material get
pounded into a full length rifle barrel.
Even though every manufacturer I know has some old artesian that
straightens the barrels by peering down them and "bending" them on a special
rig.
It seems logical however that the traditional way of removing material
from the inside of a drilled blank is putting less stess on the structure
of the raw material resulting in a straighter and therefore more accurate
barrel.
Then lapping the tool marks out seem logical to me.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
I would like to hear comments of the present day Nightforce scopes
and their quality. I have heard that the first ones were not up to snuff
but after Nighforce changed their OEM manufacturer (they buy their scopes
from a japanese OEM manufacturer) the quality has been very good. What
do you think ?
My idea is that as I can not afford real night scopes by Litton,ITT,
Zeiss or others, I have to do with a good scope that has a battery powered
lighted reticle as Nightforce scopes do. I´m interested especially
in 3.5-14 and 5.5-22 models. Any ideas ?
Hensoldt: I understand that they are owned by Zeiss nowadays but
their products are not sold to public. Is this true ?
BTW German army bought Accuracy International´s Super magnums
in 300 Win Mag, folding, stock, Hensoldt scope with a lit reticle AND an
image intesifier that is attached in front of the actual scope. Weapon
designation is G22. i.e. Gewehr 22 -> Rifle model 22.
Hexa
Torsten,
If I were to build a rifle today, I would start off with an action
and then go from there. Chester's in Shotgun News advertises new Remington
actions for $275.00 or so. A quality barrel blank for $240.00, a good stock
for about 300 or 400. Chamber job for $150.00. Bedding by an accuracy gunsmith
100.00 +. A few other odds and ends and you are all set. Don't be too concerned
about the cost of the barrel blank. After you shoot 1500 or 2000 rounds
you send it back to the gunsmith and have it cut off and rechambered and
recrowned. Now you have two barrels for the price of one. Have it rechambered
before it is completely shot out. The reamer pilot needs a good precision
surface to ride on. One of our accuracy gunsmiths once said he would only
rechamber stainless barrels. He said that he ruined some reamers on rechambering
chrome-moly barrels. From what I've read on the firing process nitrogen
joins with the metal and the metal gets harder in the throat area. Perhaps
someone else has had some experience in this matter and would comment.
One time in Precision Shooting Magazine someone talked about finding
a good accuracy gunsmith. He said: "You want to find a gunsmith who will
separate the pepper from the fly shit."
And with that I'll part.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Standard Rifle accuracy: My feeling has been that the "gun media"
and magazine writers have long undersold the true accuracy potential of
many rifles, due in part to their consern over their own credibility. If
they shoot brand X and it is a screamer and tell you about it, then YOU
go buy said Brand X and get a pigs ear, They look bad. So they simply tell
you to expect 1.2 to 1.6 moa out of the rifles they review. Mr. Bain is
correct that many rifles have been capable of sub moa for some time. But
you seldom hear of it in hunting magazines. But as he pointed out, the
real trick is to maintain that accuracy level over a period of time. For
most, the first three to five shots are all they well ever need, but the
competitor and tactical shooter wants and needs more. That is where a good
custom smith can help out.
Gun writers also write for the masses who do not handload. Telling
people in this catagory that a rifle will shoot sub moa is pointless in
their eyes as you may or may not ever find a factory load that will do
this. Factory ammo is very capable, but you have to test the heck out of
it, at substantial cost, to find a load your rifle likes. Most casual hunters
do not do this. I think the feeling is that if you sell something as ultra
accurate, these people will be irrate when that level of accuracy does
not pan out for them.
This is why magazines like Precision Shooting and Tactical Shooter
are such a God send to us. They are very technical, and assume you are
interested in extreme accuracy by the very fact that you bought the magazine.
No PAP for the masses found there!
To Nathan and Scott: My AR-15 / CAR-16 would have the collapsable
stock and a bit shorter barrell (14") I believe this would facilitate it's
use as an entry weapon, but as to the rest of what you have to say Scott,
you are just about Spot On. A couple years ago I found myself on a shooting
range somewhere south of the border with someone who was working for our
government and with the other countries goverment on a drug eradication
project. He had a CAR-16 about like the one that I would like and whe spent
several happy hours shooting at somthing over 120 meters at some 2x4 blocks
of wood. I was plesently suprised at how well the red dot scope (Aim Point
I think) worked on those small targets at that distance, and I believe
my host was equelly suprised at how well this old, fat, out of shape, guy
with bad knees could shoot.
Russ...Sorry I did not make it to the Charity event for Gunny. We
are bogged down here in Florida with Wildfires. Myself and my Ranger crews
have gone 19 days without a real break. I cancelled all leave, so it would
not have shown good leadership for me to take off to attend.
Maybe in August.
Russ I have been playing with my Choate/Plaster stock on my 110 tactical.
This damn stock weighs a TON! I guess if weight is not a consideration
then all in all it is a reasonably decent stock. It is really comfortable
to lay or sit behind at the bench or range. It seems to absorb recoil well...I'm
thinking that it might be better on the 110 in .300 WinMag. than the .308.
Has anyone else tried this stock yet? And would you care to comment
on it? I have yet to have the time to shoot it enough to know just what
I really think about it.
Spotter weapons/law enforcement long guns: For patrol units, I highly
recommend HK/Beretta semi auto shotguns. Shotguns??? We issue stainless
folding stock mini 14's which work, but are no more accurate than the shotguns.
All you get with the mini 14's is ammo capacity. Muzzle flash/blast is
terrible. With the shotguns you can put them into action faster and have
a wide variety of ammo. CS, Slug, Buckshot, Birdshot, beanbag etc. All
our patrol units (42) have both a Mini 14 and a Beretta 1201. Mini 14 mounted
vertical between front buckets and shotgun on the rollbar. We've tested
buckshot and found Remington Reduced Recoil OOB patterned much better @
25 yards (18") than others including Federal Tactical. The Berettas are
capable of 6" slug groups (prone/sandbag) @ 100 yds. As the mini 14's are
loaded with 55 gr sp, the shotguns are loaded with OOB and have sidesaddles
with slug. During tactical apartment entries, we use #6 or 7.5 birdshot.
Nasty at apartment ranges. Will penetrate 2 layers of sheetrock. Once officers
are trained to deal with recoil, they all seem to prefer the shotgun. Now,
I wish we all could have AR's in the trunk, but costs prevent that.
But, that's just my opinion... Keep yer heads down!
RE: Action rigidity; How much is enough?
In an earlier posting I mentioned that the Winchester is about 3
times stiffer than the Remington 700 in the vertical plane. That said,
just how much stiffness is really required to support a 27 inch heavy barrel?
Even Stuart Otteson he said he didn't know.
Those who subscribe to P. S. magazine have no doubt seen the DuPont
advertisement (March 1998 p. 61) showing Carl Kovalchik (LEO), and his
winning target at the Quantico, VA match. Quite impressive isn't it. Carl's
score in the Quantico match was 200 with 19 Xs. That's 19 shots within
10 inches! The one shot that was not a X was about 1 inch [25 mm] or so
out.
For those people who are not familiar with long range competitive
shooting, the Wimbledon or similar matches consist of 20 shots at 1000
yards in the prone position. Scopes are allowed, but not mandated. Thirty
minutes is given to shoot unlimited sighters AND 20 rounds for record.
Once you notify your score keeper that you are "going for record" no more
sighting shots are allowed. Usually if you are on the target paper (6 ft.
by 6 ft. with the first shot you "go for record" after about 5 to 8 shots.
The black bullseye is 44 inches [111.7 cm] diameter. The 10-ring is 20
inches [50 cm] and the X-ring is 10 inches [25 cm]. The object is to keep
them all in the 20 inch 10-ring.
I do not shoot the 1000 yard team matches at Camp Perry, but prefer
to grab my spotting scope and find interesting teams to watch, and for
a few years now I have been observing Carl's {unnamed Federal} team. What
a group of hard holders! Their rifles consist of Remington long actions,
Schneider barrels chambered for the 300 Win. Mag., McMillan prone stocks,
and Leupold M-4 scopes. Every team member is always in the high 190s. Now
all of this makes you think that their Remington actions must be rigid
enough, doesn't it?
Carl uses 4350 IMR powder.
Schneider Rifle Barrels Inc.
We are very fortunate in the U.S. to have so many custom barrel makers.
Our worries are not IF we will get a good barrel, but who will we order
from. Krieger, Obermeyer, Hart, Shilen, Schneider, BlackStar, Broughton,
Lilja, and a few others. I also read somewhere that Clay Spencer is starting
to produce barrels also. Another perfectionist.
That's all for now.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Best way to reach me is ASA, P.O. Box 54233, Phoenix, AZ 85078 or
(602) 581-6606.
The technology is changing so rapidly that your site is a tremendous
learning resource. Keep up the good work. I have a short story based upon
a real time sniper mission in the Ashau Valley I would like to submit if
you entertain such contributions. Maintain your zero and read the wind!!
James R. Jarrett
I have a simple question right now I use Shooters Choice and Hoppes
Copper solvent on my 700PSS. I also use CLP on my AR-15. I was looking
for a solution for a field kit using just one cleaner. I was wondering
if there are any adverse effects from using CLP on a precision rifle in
the field?
Steve <sgriff@apci.net>
Steve <nato@bright.net>
Oh Yeah the condoms ! i can carry water in them when they are inside
a sock and they make exellent swimming aides when you blow them up and
stick them in your pants legs with the bottoms tied shut. you pass the
legs under your arms with the crotch of the pants on your breast. i´ve
tried both of the above and it seems to work well under semi controlled
circumstances.
did i forget something guys ? what? the Kitchen sink
Sniper Country is not for minors. If you are under 18, we ask that
you not visit our site. Come back when you are older. Oh, we really don't
like it when you post requests for "contract" work. We can, and will, inform
the appropriate authorities of your unauthorized visits and posts, whether
it's the Principal of Centaurus High School in Lafayette, CO (part of the
Boulder Valley School District), or local, county, state, or federal law
enforcement.
Also, Sniper Country is not a place for scatological or penis-based
humor. And don't think that because you fail to post an address, that we
can't track you down. Our ISP has the information readily accessible, and
we will obtain access to it to report you to the appropriate authorities.
In short, we're serious about our positions found in the In-Country
Briefing.
I also noticed, but that is the downside of stepping out in to the
open.
I beleive that our insider posts are to technical for these hyped
up types and far beyond their horizon so that they soon will find this
site pretty boring.
What happend with the 92 barrel project ?
Has anyone got some input about the tetra teflon barrel treatment.
I´ve cleaned my Mauser 86SR with disk brake degreaser and then did
the 20 round break in with tetra wipes after each shot. Did not hurt it,
and the patches seem to be going through easier now. HAve not cronographed
my usuall loads yet, may be a slight increase in vel ?
Next up is the search for a used 700 VSS .308. Why should I buy a
new one when I'm going to chop it up anyway?
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
How fast can you run 3 miles?
A Marine
PS--You're breaking the law, son. Piss off until you reach legal
age to visit this site.
I have manufactured about 800 pistol barrels and 300 .22 conversion
units in 92 and 93 for Peters Stahl.
As to the polygonal rifleing I am currently working on a Rem 700
polygonal barrel. The twist rate is 1 in 12".
It will probably be a heavy bull contour.
The past tests have shown that these will shoot as good as any other
Match barrel, but not better.
The fouling is a lot less and the livespan of these barrels will
be about 2 to 3 times of that of a average land and groove type.
I should have the first 5 units for t&e in hand by mid June.
Also they cause less gas escape past the bullet because of a better
seal thus minimizing erosion. Velocity is not higher because it is evened
out by a little more friction.
what would be a good barrel length and profile guy´s ?
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
At any rate, there are a lot of simple things (although not inexpensive
things!) that you can do to improve a basic AR15A2. Replacing the rear
sight with a good quality NM sight is a good start. It will give you 1/4
minute windage and 1/2 minute elevation. $75 and up. Best of all, you get
rid of the unecessarily large rear aperatures.
A free float tube is a must if you will use a tight sling hold or
bipod. Aluminum tube - $35 to $60 OR DCM legal tube under handguard - $120.
With out one of these, POI will change with anything contacting the barrel,
or pressuring it, like a sling.
The stock trigger should be one of the first things you replace.
The single stage JP Enterprises is good, but some prefer two stage triggers.
The JP, when adjusted properly - and this takes time - will have ZERO creep.
But you have to carefully approach adjusting it. Mine is very nice with
no creep and it breaks right at 4.5 pounds for Service rifle rules. The
Millazo-Krieger trigger is the best two stage trigger available. It cost
about $250. Armalite has a so-so copy of it for about $150 or less. Still,
if you can afford it, the M-K is the way to go. Do not try to adjust the
stock trigger. You will only ruin it and possibly get doubles fires and
jams. Live with it till you can afford a good trigger. Believe me on this
one. I have a lot of trashed triggers!
A cheap addition to the AR is a NM front sight post - $10. You can
get them in several widths to suit your eyesight. Thinner is usually better,
but only if your eyes are good. Do not skimp on a sling. Get a Turner.
Or buy junk and THEN replace it with a Turner later, for MORE money. Learn
from MY mistakes!!!
Consider the tensioning pin from JP. It'll take away the slop between
the reveivers. It is not necessary until you are trying to become a master...but
replacing the stock pin now will elimintate one more variable. If you can
not afford it right now, the cheap little $5 rubber pin bushing is well
worth it. Best of all, it allows you instant access to the internals of
the rifle, whereas the JP pin does not. Alternative: Glass the upper to
the lower. It works.
IF you have a pre-ban, make sure your flash hider is only hand tight.
The AMTU has proven that a too tight flash hider affects accuracy. If you
have a post ban, enjoy the fact that nothing is out there to upset the
bullet as it leaves the bore! Forget muzzle breaks. The problem with them,
and other aftermarket flash-hiders in general, is that if not manufactured
perfectly, they will effect the the exit of the bullet as it leaves the
muzzle. If the gas can not expand evenly, it'll tip the bullet a small
amount. This is one reason why I dislike Armalites practice of installing
their proprietary break. You are stuck with it as it is permanent. Better
to just shoot a post ban with out any muzzle accoutriment! Heck, I can't
ever recall a ground hog locatiing me by my flash before the bullet hit
it anyway! Nor did the High Power targets duck either. For pure accuracy,
do yourself a favor - just forget breaks and hiders. one less thign to
wory about
While I am thinking about the crown...Check it. I do not know which
barrel you have, but a cheap and easy accuracy trick is to have a good
smith cut you a new Target crown.
The Bushmaster uppers and lowers are excellent. Better than most.
You have a great basis too eventually build the rifle of your dreams, be
it a competition service rifle, a space-gun, Varmint rigs, or a close/medium
range tactical rifle. If and when you replace the barrel, consider 1:8
or 1:7-7/8. These will allow you to use a wide range of match bullets.
My 1:9 limits me to 69 grains, while the military 1:7 is known to burn
out barrels pretty quickly. 1:8 gives you a good overall compromise.
Welcome to the happy world of Mouse-gunners. Good luck!
thanks for the note, I´ll let you know.
TorF is another guy from Norway.
Thanks
Torsten
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Just to stir the pot my Savage 12BVSS 308 is still being outfitted
but it now shoots 1/2"groups at 200yards.
In reference to postings about rough Savage Barrels, I have to agree
rough as cob. But as the manufacturer says, so what their isn't a better
barrel on the market on a off the shelf product.
And if you want to pu pu (and I am not talking about an appetizer
tray) this, look in the previous addition of Precision Shooting and you'll
see that in a 1000yard shoot 2 off the shelf Savage Barrells took 3rd place
in points and position.
You can't beat the Savage for off the shelf performance.
Just som in flamatory statements froma guy who can't walk the walk
but can read and spend money.
By the way thanks Scott for pointing me to Savage.
tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
Since I never elaborated to all my respondants which Bushmaster I
am shooting, here goes; Bushmaster XM15-E2S 20" HBAR, target crown, post
ban. Looking to accurize it for local DCM matches and as a defensive weapon
for the inevitable Prarie Dog rush.
Again, thanks to all!
In your addenda to your reply to Ralph about the AR-15, you mentioned
the book 'Black Magic' by John Feamster, as well as the technical manual.
I have the USA/USAF armorer's manual for the M16A2/M4 which I use for my
Bushmaster XM15-E2S, but I can't find a source for 'Black Magic'. I've
checked Amazon.com and BarnesandNoble.com as well as Paladin Press's Web
site, but none of them have it listed. If you have a source for this book,
would you be so kind as to let me, and the rest of this super group who
might be interested, know what it is? I'm no Ted Yost or Dave Lauck, but
I can do at least the basic kind of work on my various firearms, as long
as I have someone or a book to show me what to do.
Thanks for your assistance.
DVC,
Thanks for the info. Looks like it's time for me to get a couple
of more magazine subscriptions, as if I have time to read all the ones
I've got coming now. Heck, I don't even have enough spare time to hit the
range as often as I'd like. Just one look at my targets would verify that!!
Thanks again.
George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
George,
There is some bolt rifle content.
==========
Call Precision Shooting (860) 645-8776 or FAX (860) 643-8215. It
comes in both hard ($29.95) and soft ($24.95) covers. I recommend the hard
cover for durability reasons. Reasonably priced too.
Here are some of the things listed in just Chapter 5's sub-table
of contents. This will give you an idea of what to expect. You'll be very
surprised to see how many rounds can be shot out of stainless barrels and
they are still holding match class accuracy.
Premium Mousechow: Feeding your highly accurate AR-15
Our poor book shelves are groaning.
I know......., I sound like a book salesman, but I can't help myself.
When I see something very good I'm going to let folks know about it. I'm
just throwing words on this page to get the info out in a hurry. No attempt
is made to organize anything.
The section on barrels and handguards is about 20 pages long and
includes, but is not limited to the following subjects. choosing your barrel,
materials and manufacture, lands and grooves, chambering, twist rate, installation,
longevity, barrel tricks, handguards, muzzle brakes, barrel length/velocity,
firing pins, etc.
David Tubbs talks about his SR25.
A history of the competitive AR.
You just have to buy it. It is THAT good. Three hundred pages, soft
cover. $29.95. Sinclair International has it.
Good reading,
Try turning the volume all the way off on your amplified muffs.
Works for me!
Besides, I always thought it sounded more like a metal box, half
full of springs, being thrown against a sheet of corrigated steel held
next to my head.
Thanks to an overwhelming demand, I can now offer the Carlos Hathcock
Sniper Competition T-shirt again. Please see the emporium for ordering
details and follow them accurately. To those of you who have pledged to
donate for a match T-shirt, I thank you. Carlos' condition is deteriorating
rapidly and now is the time he can use your help. Please visit the emporium
now.
Just checking back in. Great spot. Appreciate your rigorous policing
of the site. Keep it up.
Anybody have any comments on the recent decision on Lon Horiuchi
(FBI sniper that killed V. Weaver)? If this is too "political", my apologies.
I bring it up because in addition to the development of exceptional expertise
in the requisite crafts of the sniper (marksmanship, fieldcraft, stealth,
patience), my experience as a sniper and with snipers has left me firmly
commited to the notion that such skills must be employed within a moral
framework and abide by the code of the warrior. A sniper without honor
is a disgrace to this unique and noble class of warrior. Such an individual
is also the reason for "countersniper" operations.
Again my apologies to the staff at snipercountry if I have trespassed
protocol. Please advise and I will stand corrected.
The tactical phase training of our Advanced Long Range Tactical Rifle
Program will be run at the New Mexico facility the weekend of 11 July.
Dates for the actual FTX are still be coordinated.
James R. Jarrett, Director
Something for consideration and comment. In our Advanced Long Range
Tactical Rifle Course at the American Shooting Academy, we spend a lot
of range time developing a "systems" approach to each participant and their
rifle. As most of you are aware, I'm sure, consistency and continuity are
the fundamental building blocks of precision shooting. I am not an expert
in all things regarding precision shooting. Many of my students have more
"technical" knowledge about pressures, velocities, etc. than I have. My
background and skill is tactical use and efficient employment. Thus comments
and information are always welcome. Those qualifications aside, I have
found that I can learn much from other shooting disciplines. For instance,
I am not a bench rest shooter but I have enormous respect for the extraordinary
technical expertise of bench rest shooters. One of the things most distance
shooters seem to agree upon is that dedicated hand loaded ammunition is
the best at producing the tightest groups and predictable accuracy for
any given rifle.
Two comments: 1) No matter how careful a handloader is, human falliblity
is more likely to occur than in machine loaded factory ammo (This is particular
true in duty ammunition for handguns or close quarter battle weapons [=
to or < 200 meters]).
2)For the reasons listed in #1 above, as well as availability, and
some authors claim court defense, factory ammunition performance should
also be included in the "system."
Most of our students work up dedicated handloads for their primary
distance rifle. A range / ballistics performance chart is typically taped
on the inside of the butt stock and covered with acetate. Students are
also strongly urged to find which factory load performs "best" in their
weapon.
Our experience here at the Academy is that a good factory round will
perform adequately to at least 600 yards. They may not get as many X's
as with their handload, but they will certainly get 9's and 10's. For sniper
work, those are practical and acceptable "combat accuracy" results.
Guys, wish I could hit an egg at 500 yards every time. I can't, but
I can hit a torso every time at that distance unless I totally screw up
my evaluation of environmental factors. Our policy and the policy I have
followed since I first became a qualified special ops sniper during the
war games in SEA in 1967, is that all mission shots must be 100%. The target
dimensions for such a standard vary from shooter to shooter. It is part
of the responsibility of the sniper to not only know his capabilities,
but more importantly, to operate within his limitations.
James R. Jarrett, Director
James R. Jarrett
To Greywolf: If you visit the Articles and Commentary page, you'll
find an open solicitation for "guest" submissions (i.e., articles). Yours
would be MOST welcome. Send it to Mr. Bain at your soonest opportunity.
Once he's done with you, then it's MY turn. It'll be scrubbed, edited (ruthlessly),
and posted. That's the way we do it here. Don't be scared, though. (YOU?
Scared?! With YOUR credentials???) Seriously, we look forward to getting
some honest-to-goodness "war" stories posted here. Thanks for your offer.
(By the way, in the way of "kinship," a former "handle" of mine -- in an
earlier "life" -- was "Werewolf.")
To Steve: On using CLP for a "precision rifle," well... cleanliness
is next to Godliness. Whatever it takes. Be advised, though, that -- with
CLP -- it's going to look like you're never getting it clean, because you'll
always get residue on your patches... but, that's just the way CLP does
its job. For some time now, I've been using Kroil. Further be advised,
however, that Kroil leaves your weapon with a gasoline-type odor which
is NOT very tactical for hunting (man OR beast). You can use the Kroil,
but let your firearm "air out," outside, before going afield with it. You
know, we always worry about OURSELVES not smelling, but we nearly ALWAYS
forget about deodorizing our weapons. Food for thought. Deal with it.
To Bill and Paul: Squirrels? SQUIRRELS???!!! Hey, look, guys... "I"
was there, in the middle of the 1994-1997 Nauga Wars! Ever see what a mama
Nauga can do to a human being in under four (yes, FOUR!) seconds? Chilling.
I watched my gun bearer, Jame'l, whose only mistake was to reach down and
pick up a baby Nauga, be TRAMPLED and THRASHED by the youngster's enraged
maternal parent! Horrifying. I had to pump three rounds from my .416 Remington
Magnum (400-grain Barnes solids, no less) into her before she dropped poor
Jame'l (dead) to the ground, after which she finally toppled over onto
her side. (A final brain shot from my .416 put an end to her merciless
rampage.) Ah, but what a fine hide she yielded. Covered the interiors of
six Mustang convertibles, one Corvette, and an AC Cobra, I'll have you
know. Sadly, though, the young Nauga male had to be nursed for months (do
you have any IDEA how many goats it takes to nurse one bloody little baby
Nauga?). In the end, he survived -- but was shot down by a Nauga poacher.
The poacher is now in prison (those foreign prisons are Hell, eh what?).
Alas, the young bull Nauga did not die without purpose -- as evidenced
by my motorcycle's stylishly-covered king/queen seat. Anyway, don't speak
to ME of pesky little squirrels!!! Come on, I mean REALLY!!!
To Nathan and Dave: Hmmm, I'll have to check that site out -- perhaps
add a link, accordingly.
To Mr. Bain: On kids, schools, "contract work" -- I don't want to
know, but thanks for minding the homestead while I was trekking after bears
in Canada for a week.
To Dave: Thanks (regarding the book information). I wish I had the
whole DFA series. To Kevin: Wow! Nice words. Thank you. If we can help you, we surely
will.
To Paul (again): Swaging my own bullets is a facet of the "gun thing"
I've tried to stay away from. More money, more gear, more "stuff." If YOU
do it, though, let me know how it goes.
To Major Honeycutt: Mustang? As in P-51D? If so, that's my favorite
fighter (I know "pursuit") plane. Tanker? Armor? Clank clank? If so, we
should get drunk and tell lies to each other. Or are you talking KC-130s?
Damn it, man, explain yourself! :-)
To Paul (yet again): I have grave reservations about applying Teflon
in a manner (bore applications) that I have extremely little control over.
I've always recommended against using Teflon in any bore treatments (during
the cleaning process).
To James: Don't fire-lap if you can get someone to lap (normally)
your bore. Fire-lapping erodes the throat.
Whew! Well, I'm all caught up. Now, it's off to the carwash to turn
the blazer that belongs to the wife of one of the guys in my bear-hunting
party back into a clean grocery getter. No rest for the wicked. Sure is
nice to be home, from Canada -- "EH?!!!"
SSG Nathan Lawrence
I just bought a new surplus optical rangefinder made by Wild in switzerland
in 1979 for the German Army. Its a small unit working on a 25cm basis and
ranges from 35 to 500 Meters.
First test on a 300 Meter range show optimistic results.
Any hints other than what Plaster has written about these optical
units ?
Laser would be better, but a 120$ I could not leave it behind.
Paul: Thanks for the comment. Too many of the "sniper types" in both
the military and law enforcement are world class athletes and shooters
without a shred of the moral, ethical, and intellectual character necessary
to a warrior. I say this as an experienced special ops team leader (Project
Delta, 5th SFGA, 1st SF and Recondo -- RVN as well as operations with the
8th and 7th SFGA in Central America, primary instructor at Camp McCall
SF Training Group, Ft. Bragg, NC) and as an experienced SWAT and Federal
Drug Border Interdiction Team operative). I was raised in the tradition
of the warrior by my grandfather who instilled in me a respect for the
necessity of those who go forth to accomplish the diplomacy of the United
States by means of the sword. While undergoing extensive training at the
JFK Special Warfare Center, it was driven home repeatedly that our unique
mission as "Green Beret's" was to be conducted within the moral framework
of the principles which founded this nation. As a sniper, either waiting
for the "green light" or when making that decision, it remained uppermost
in my mind that the employment of such a unique skill must be done within
the confines of moral legitimacy, not merely an exercise to prove "how
good I was." Besides, as scared as I often was in the operational environment,
"how good I was" never entered my mind. However, the moral certitude that
who I was (An American Special Forces special operations soldier), why
I was there ("De Oppresso Libre" To Liberate from Oppression -- in other
words, to assist other people in achieving the benefits of liberty), and
what I was about to do (One shot - one kill) was what propelled me forward.
Hence, the moral justifications and foundation of my personal life and
the code of the American soldier were what distinguished me from the "cold
eyed killers" so prevelent in the ranks of those given such responsibilities
today.
I read with great interest the remarks of Simpson of Kennesa, Georgia
regarding the selection of sniper personnel. Many good ideas, except for
his critique of those that might feel remorse or anxiety over their mission.
If you do not feel remorse or anxiety over your mission, you are psychotic
and do not belong in the company of civilized men. I remember every shot
I made, and I feel deep remorse over the killing of those small, yellow
men and women. Mostly because young men from two different cultures were
sent to some bloodsoaked ground in Southeast Asia to kill each other for
reasons that have become blurred over the intervening years. Would I do
it again? Yes. Did I ever hesitate? No. Did I experience anxiety? Absolutely
-- would my hand be steady?, would my position be compromised? was the
target if a woman or a young person carrying a weapon a genuine threat
to American or allied lives or merely a transporter? Do I feel remorse
over the killing of those people? Yes. Was it necessary? At the time, yes.
Gentlemen, be careful as we practice this deadly, ancient, and noble
art that we remember who we are, why we are here and not just how can we
accomplish the mission.
James R. Jarrett, (ABD-phd), MS, BCFE, DABFE
Mario J. Russica
Paul Headlee: Finally, a long range shooter only minutes away. From
your previous posts, you seem to be fairly knowledgable on the rifle subject.
If you don't mind a novice hanging out with you the next time you head
out to Range 9 (I assume this is where you shoot), I would enjoy the opportunity.....
I can be reached easiest via e-mail.
Scott: Who do you recomend to bed AR uppers and lowers? I found a
gunsmith in Arizona who quoted a pretty fair price. Also, would this bedding
process negate the need for the JP tensioning pin? I was planning on having
both on my DCM AR-15 currently under construction, but I've got other AR's
that would definately benefit from the JP pin. (At $30 a pop I can't afford
to modify all of them.) Thanks for any comments.
Well, I'm signing off to read the WSJ article that has created such
a stir. Time to see what all the fuss has been about.
Matt <par8hed@ksu.edu>
DRAFT PRESS RELEASE
HECKLER & KOCH IN MAJOR US
Heckler & Koch is a key member of the team that has won a
With Alliant Techsystems of the USA as the prime
A further 7 prototypes will now be produced for technical and
Jim Woods, President Heckler & Koch Inc said, "Working
The OICW is being designed as the follow-on to the M16 rifle
Heckler & Koch GmbH is a wholly-owned subsidiary of
Key system features include:
1.The OICW will provide twice the range (1000 metres)
2.Dual Munition capability combining NATO standard
3.Over and under barrel design with a single trigger
4.Electronic fire control system with a laser range finder
5.Weighs less than the fully equipped M16 modular
6.Simple red dot day/night sighting system that utilises
7.Ability to separate the 20mm and 5.56mm
For further BAe news click here.
TorF
http://www.army-technology.com/
Thanks for the comment. Might I gently point out that I said "too
many ...." As a professor, I try to instill in my students that "precision
in language reflects precision in thought." I therefore tried to be quite
precise in my wording. I was not intimating that most or even a sizeable
minority of those tasked with sniper responsibilities operate within an
environment of ethical impoverishment. What is "too many" to one of us
may be an acceptable level of aberation to another. I submit that several
high profile incidents within the past few years have adequately demonstrated
the existance of such conduct.
As a practicing criminal profiler, a qualitatitive content analysis
of the text of your message suggests that you "may" be or have been a law
enforcement officer. If so, you know as well as I that locker room talk
is just that, but it also carries a thread of truth. An excellent example
is the dialogue contained in every episode of "NYPD Blue." For further
support of the previous allegation, I would refer you to the intercar mdt
cross talk relating to the Rodney King incident. We also know that law
enforcement tends to generally be possessed ofextremely fragile egos and
frequently react hyperdefensively to any criticism, and often feel compelled
to defend the behavior of their comrades no matter how egregious. Been
there, done that.
In summary, I did not, nor did I intend to imply that most or all
of the cadre of military and law enforcement snipers are ethically bankrupt.
My point, more precisely stated, is that the problem is more apt to exist
in law enforcement than in the military. It has to do with the differing
mission parameters, and, I strongly believe, in the selection and recruitment
process of todays officers and the type of first line supervision, or lack
thereof, they are exposed to. What is "too many" for me may not be for
you -- that's what makes for horse races (smile). Thanks again for the
response. It is a pleasure to discuss issues of substance with men that
share the same code of honor.
James R. Jarrett
Very interesting website:
http://www.army-technology.com/
TorF
Matt at KSU: I've been out to Range 9, not too impressive but better
than nothing. I think it goes to about 200M. Spoke with MG Mc Farren last
NCOA banquet about reinstituting a robust rod & gun club. It's all
about profit...no profit (to funnel into other MWR activities) no club.
In 1980 Ft Riley had one of the best clubs in the Army and we operated
the National Match Range. MG Rhame killed all that. Born again Christian
or something.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
http://www.heckler-koch.de/
TorF
Matt,
In the early 1980's I had Mark Chanlynn of CO. build a match rifle
for me. This had a McMillan 1:10 twist, 24" bbl. with a tubular hand guard.
I had done a little BR shooting prior to High Power, so I knew that I could
shoot pretty well off a bench. With a 24X Leupold this gun was pretty much
a 5/8" to 11/16" gun at 100 yards shooting 10-shot groups after correcting
some problems (another story). I stress 10-shot groups because these are
the ONLY ones that you can trust. I thought that tightening up the receiver
fit might help accuracy so I temporarily super-glued small strips of brass
shim stock to the bottom side of the upper receiver. The pushpin was now
a tight "push" fit. I also glued a custom shim washer down in the lower
receiver to eliminate any side play. All this was for naught. It still
shot the same under equivalent "perfect conditions". I even built a gas
block, so I could limit the gas flow from next to nothing to full flow.
It also helped not one bit. From my limited experience, this rifle only
responds only to good barrels, good bullets, and a S.A.A.M.I. .223 chamber.
Bedding means nothing or very little. Someone may want to debate the S.A.A.M.I.
.223 chamber and that's fine. I don't have any argument with that. To those
that don't know, the S.A.A.M.I. chamber has a tighter and shorter throat
than a NATO chamber. It's possible to have high pressure conditions using
real NATO ammunition. BTW the brass shims have never fallen off and they
are still there. The AMTU beds their rifles, but that doesn't mean much.
They used to silver solder shims to the back of the bolt carrier to remove
looseness. They found out that didn't make any difference either. Civilians
already knew it.
If you want, I'll tell you how to true up AR-15 barrel extensions.
Longish.
This is directed mainly at "modern" High Power shooters.
On one of the lists Mark Stouse said that Compass Lake Engineering
will be at Camp Perry this year. They will be selling BlackStar barrels
with fitted bolt for a special "Camp Perry" price. I'll pick one up; that
is for sure.
If I get an exact date on when they arrive, I'll let everyone know.
Most likely it will be during service rifle week.
Hmmmm....OK, I'll step out there!
of accuracy. They typically are so rough and cobbly inside that
a file would be embarrassed to be compared to the inside of one of Savage's
tubes.
are not uncommon. The problem arises when you continue to shoot
much more than this limited number of rounds, as the barrels' fouling potential
is extreme. I recently shot a Tactical Model for three 5-shot groups (no
moly, per the customer's request) without cleaning. The first group measured
around .450 inch, and I was impressed. The second
group measured around .850 inch, and the third group just went all
to hell. It was almost two inches.
quite a bit to improve a customer's Savage barrel. Typically, we
will lightly lap the bore to cut down some of the bigger points of offence,
and then electropolish it. Lapping is not typically required as a prep
with other factory barrels, but we have found that Savage and Marlin
barrels definitely benefit from the extra step.
appalling barrel nut. On the rare occasions that a customer asks
us to install one of our custom barrels on a Savage, I always encourage
them to allow us to dispense with the barrel nut!
I hope that my answer is of help to you.
Mark Stouse
BlackStar
Houston, Texas
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 18:03:13 (EDT)
As a mere NRA Sharpshooter Hi-power & Marksman Long Range, I
at least tied Carlos III at the 600 yard line at Quantico last October
with 96-4X. I consider that very good and think that all of your'e endeavors
for the "Gunny" are one of the most worthwhile causes, and it's just great
the the kid is carrying on the tradition. I certainly would like the particulars
on any upcoming "events" in the northeast. A 1000 click radius is about
all that is possible. Szak
Frank L.Szakaly, MR/2C, USN, B414268 <SZAK@worldnet.att.net>
Baldwinsville, NY 13027-3303 USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 19:57:10
(EDT)
To Ron: Yes, Mark has stated how very rough the Savage barrels are,
and he's right. They are. Which is why I'd either go with a custom barrel
or lap the heck out of the thing, if I was to do it all over again. Occasionally,
Mark has "special" at BlackStar, and then it's more feasible to have the
electropolishing done. Otherwise, for the cost, you could save a lot of
money by lapping, freezing, and a good breaking in. Browning, I think,
has been putting better barrels on their rifles since Mark first worked
with them. I have to dispute the comment about the Savage action not being
up to snuff for building a custom gun. Indeed, it was the only option I
had for my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. I used the single-shot version of
a 112-series rifle in .300 Winchester Magnum, opened the bolt-face, modified
the extractor, and it's ready to go (except for a slight reamer problem,
which will be resolved within the next two weeks). However, for what Mark
said, he's dead on, and the money that would pay for the polishing work
could be put into a quality "name" barrel and a cryo job. Thanks for your
post, Ron. (Things have been slow???)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 23:41:57 (EDT)
Out of box quality, regular production rifles.
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 06:32:14 (EDT)
I owned a savage .223 the old police model one in 12 twist a few
years back. I lapped it with about 10 thousand rounds of Hornady SX's after
cutting the barrel to 18" to kind of slow it down for the sx's you know
as they tend to disentigrate at high speeds. I say the Gent who bought
it at a bargain price the other day and he says it still shoots under .5".
Torf you full of Wisdom I fear that you are correct. Winchester
has had some many problems and they have shipped some real junk in the
States in the past. All you kiddies don't go out and buy one lest it's
pretty late like the past 5 or 6 years cause in the 80's it was bad down
there. They are about to overcome that and the old 70 system is mighty
hard to beat. Those pre 64's weren't magic but they were OK in my book.
Flimsy action? well..... I was down at precision shooters page.. Shooting
free recoil with the tip of your finger and baby powder on the bag. That's
ok but it ain't shootin it's testin! Jasaminute Ivan let me get my deodorant
before you shoot me!
Tip of the day! Grasshoppers.
Laminate your ballistics and slip them on the drivers side of the
stock under the nylon shell holder just in case and there is no breech
of camo there.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 09:45:32 (EDT)
RE: Winchester stiffness:
"Stiffness of action or not, the M70's shoot rings around the 700's
in extended matches." TorF
Just happened to read this and thought I would dump some info. I
want everyone to know that I am a Remington man having started out in benchrest
shooting back in the late '70s. I have never owned a Model 70 so I have
no reason to try to build them up. But let me give everyone some facts
to chew on.
"………However, the Model 700, which because of its cylindrical receiver
has also long been heralded as being rigid, lacks the numbers to bear that
out. Finally, perhaps the high rigidity of the siderail Winchester Model
70 resulting from its deep integral magazine shroud, helps account for
the great success shooters have had with it through the years in high-power
competition."
As always, comments are welcome.
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 10:16:16 (EDT)
Nathan: Me? Ideas on an AR15 for Patrol? Hahaha. Oh...well...shucks...why
yes, I do believe I do.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 10:20:37 (EDT)
Wow,there's been a lot of Rem bashing going on lately. Three years
ago I bought a M70 Varmint.I was very not impressed with the accuracy.I
spent a lot of time working up loads, but a little less than 1" was the
best I could do.I ended up trading it.I also talked to other shooters who
owned Win 70 Vs,none of them had rave reviews for this gun.
My regular shooting friends and I have many Rem 700 PSSs and Savage
110 FPs between us.All of them will easily outshoot my old Win M70,my Steyr
SSG and my Sako Varmint model.
One of my freinds bought a Savage 110 FP out of curiosity.He immediately
started shooting near benchrest size groups with it. I hesitated at buying
my Savage because I thought that a gun that ugly and inexpensive couldn't
shoot very good.In the mean time my freind put several thousand rounds
through that gun with no degradation in accuracy.A few more shooting buddies
bought them and had similar luck.I finally broke down and bought one also.
All of our Rem 700 PSSs,with their aluminum blocks not matching
the actions,rough bores,flexible actions,etc, shoot like dreams.
In my experience with the Rem PSSs & Savage 110FPs the coventional
wisdom of "You get what you pay for" isn't neccessarily true.
I just had to throw my experiences into the mix.Good shooting.
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 12:33:16 (EDT)
On Remington: My personal experience with their products has always
been happy. Biggest problem is bedding. I have seen rifles go from screamers
to sows ears by simply playing with the torque of the action screw. A round
receiver is great, but it will not always mate to the stock with out a
little help. Winchester's flat receiver, I am told, is much easier to bed.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 12:59:51 (EDT)
Edged weapons weekend:
Mr. Ryan over at Storm Mountain has agreed to schedule an edged
weapons class for me and a few others. The class will be September 26-27,
costs $220 and requires a deposit of $110. Currently we don't have enough
students to guarantee the class. If any of you want to work on your knife
skills, we need the additional students. Check the www.stormmountain.com
site for course description. Give em a call and get signed up.
-Ross Lovell
Ross Lovell <ross@mlp.com>
New York, NY USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 14:19:47 (EDT)
Ron N.
Tom <tom.scott@lmco.com>
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 15:19:27 (EDT)
Has anyone tried the Black Hills .308 match ammo. The cost is alot
less than Federal Prem.. Just trying to save the Department a little money.....the
more we save the more I get to shoot!
Doug <DC@kvnet.com>
Bardstown, Ky. USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 16:22:58 (EDT)
RE: Savage rifles
My posting on the Savage rifles was from Mark Stouse of Black Star.
On the fullbore list someone asked what HIS opinion was on Savages. I only
copied his reply to this message board Check out the BlackStar website
for more info. Please reread my post so that there is no misunderstanding.
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 16:41:53 (EDT)
I do keep em going! Kodiak what caliber was your Winchester? 22-250
you say? Well anyway. What cal was the others just to clarify and reload
my clip? Viagra is the answer for those limp actions! You know if stiff
actions was the key to accuracy it would be simple to make a stiff action.
Bench guys are funny they get an idea....! Here's one make the whole gun
out of a block of machined steel. No bedding problems now. Stiff action.
Stock and all! It's a combo of a lot of things that make em greatt. Great
fun!
Rumors get started remember when P.O. Ackley discovered that all
guns shoot better with some pressure near the end of the barrel?. Don't
know what he was smoking that day but all the manfs. smoked it too for
40 years? More factory guns came out shooting like scatterguns over that
one. Still do by the way!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 19:12:30 (EDT)
Doug: I've seen some of the specs. on the Black Hills ammo. Not
bad. They claim they've outperformed Federal, though I question this, based
on what I know of their components.
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 19:20:13 (EDT)
To Bill Rogers:
Bill, my Win M70 that shot so mediocre was a .308.
When you asked about the calibers of the others I'm not sure which
guns you meant,the other M70s whose owners I talked to,or my other guns
that the PSSs and the Savages will outshoot.
Kodiak
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 19:57:07 (EDT)
To Scott, re. sub moa factoryrifle.
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 20:20:56 (EDT)
I have enjoyed your pages and hope to return here often.
William F. Young <bilyoung@bellsouth.net>
Slidell, LA USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 22:04:01 (EDT)
Yeah I was wondering if they were all .308's I made the crack about
the 22-250 since most of the complaints about bad groups belong to that
on Wins. Just a bad guess.Do wonder if they are all .308s.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 22:23:43 (EDT)
TorF and Scott: The WW-II K-98 was also sub-MOA. Looking at G.I.
weapons shows that accuracy has increased over the years.
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 01:29:31 (EDT)
Great site! I am trying to put together a long range rifle for varmits
etc. I plan on trying a .220 swift with 8" twist and shoot 80 gr sierras
and bergers in it. Rifle will probably be H-S precision (I work there and
can get a good deal) with Nightforce scope so that I can see the little
beasties. Comments and suggestions are welcome.
Darrel Fritts <ddfritts@rapidnet.com>
Piedmont, SD USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 02:27:57 (EDT)
To Tom Scott: Don't despair on your production Savage barrel. It
will shoot just fine. However, if you're feeling ambitious, lap the bore
(do NOT fire-lap the bore). If you're not quite THAT ambitious, several
strokings of JB Bore Paste (original formula) or USP Bore Paste will do
a nice job, then remember to properly break in your barrel.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 02:46:48 (EDT)
on the recent discussion about Win actions, could someone please
clarify which one is being talked about...pre 64', post 64' push feed,
or the current classic. thanks
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 02:53:48 (EDT)
With all the info pouring in on rifle barrels and lapping, what
are your diffrent thoughts about the manufacturing processes involved ?
For the polygonal blanks I use for pistol barrels I know that they
are drilled, lapped and then hammer forged around a negative profile of
the rifeling.
Germany - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 06:14:51 (EDT)
Hi !
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 07:06:55 (EDT)
RE: Barrel making
Over here (U.S.)the only hammer forged barrels are done by the major
manufacturers (Rem/Win) and are not definitely not works of art. The problem
is not the process but the execution. Just recently I heard on another
list that Remington has about $13.00 (19.00 DM) in each barrel. Don't quote
me on this as I'm not sure of the source. But even if the figure is off
somewhat we can see that not much effort is put into a barrel. The 40-X
barrels used to be button-rifled and maybe they still are. Those are darn
good quality.
USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 08:00:33 (EDT)
NightForce Scopes. I have recently finished a review of one (3.5-15x)
and have been derelict about getting it posted. Sorry guys. I'll try to
get with it this weekend. By the way, I think that Hakko is the OEM.
Scott <xring@voicent.com>
USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 08:28:56 (EDT)
Rich I have tried most all the ones you mention the actions from
about 92 to date of the push variety are the ones I have had the best luck
with. But....individual guns are different. I don't spend $1000 each trying
to make them shoot just a little better. Bedding and triggers free floating
and minor detail has to do for me. NO custom barrels were involved.
Scott what you say is true about the Mags. Only from the study of
the ridiculously meticulous can one obtain the mediorcure accuracy that
most of us need! Even if one does not want to get technical beyond belief
it is a good way to study the art.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 09:24:33 (EDT)
About the WSJ story: Locally the politicos were not at all happy
about the headline, but once I convensed them to read the article most
comments were positive. What suprised me, in a county where the only news
stand has just two to three copies of the WSJ on any given day, was the
number of people who ask me about the article (Xerox copies are in the
fourth printing). This gave me the chance to explain what we (the sniper
community) were really about and it also allowed me to talk about Carlos
and why he is a true american hero. What caught me completly off guard
were the contacts I had from people who had found the article on there
own and wanted to know more. All of this I read as positive. For those
of you who found the article no what you would have liked (and I think
it could have been better) let me just say that it was written "About Us"
not "By Us" and it did , after all, make the front page of "The Wall Street
Journal".
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Somewhere in Beautiful, West Virginia USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at
11:24:54 (EDT)
Greetings Gents,
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL. USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 14:00:25 (EDT)
Well, once more into the breach, lads! This will be my last post
for about a week, as I'm leaving this afternoon to hunt black bears in
Ontario. Primary on this mission is my custom-built .416 Remington Magnum
("Bwana"), loaded with moly-coated 400-grain Hornady RNs over 80.1
grains of IMR 4064, with CCI 250 primers in prepped Remington cases. Secondary
is my sporterized .303 #4 Mk1 Enfield, with moly-coated 174-grain Hornady
RNs over 42.0 grains of Vihtavuori Oy N-140, also with CCI 250 primers
in prepped Winchester cases. We'll be fishing during the day and hunting
in the afternoons. No computers, no phones, no bills, no working third
shift -- just peace and solitude... well, that is, "peace and solitude"
until I cap off one of the .416s!
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 14:02:40 (EDT)
Jeff: OK... I attended a US Army "Counter Drug Sniper Course" that
had a neat firing exercise. On Monday, you were given one round and advised
that, sometime during the week, you would be given the round back. Once
you were given the round back, you were to move to firing lane 75 with
any equipment you wished to take with you. From the time you were handed
the round, you had one minute to make a hit on a "tee zone" target 100
meters out. we were shooting on lanes 1-12 so it was quite a run to lane
75. Tee zone is width of eyes to nose and width of nose to upper lip. (Does
that make sense?) If you miss, you go home. Good stress test. This course
had most of your exercises, or a variant thereof. I'm still looking at
your lesson plans, good job! It is always good to review all information
covered that day. Many instructors fail to do this. I'll be in touch.
Joe Reiss <ReissJ@Co.Cowlitz.wa.us>
Kelso, WA USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 17:33:00 (EDT)
well, I thought I was going to buy a Rem VS .308 but now I am looking
towards the Win heavy Varmint .308 push feed... any advice either way?
(sorry no Savage for me) thanks
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 17:57:21 (EDT)
Great site !
M. M. Jones <confeds@flash.net>
Colleyville, TX USA - Friday, May 22, 1998 at 19:50:53 (EDT)
Well, it is nice to have the board operating again. I haven't been
able to logon for two days.
David Tubbs also uses Schneider barrels.
Scottsdale, Arizona
(602) 948-2525
USA - Sunday, May 24, 1998 at 17:28:09 (EDT)
To all: Our apologies for the difficulties in getting onto the site.
We've complained to our ISP, but with our webmaster in Europe (he beat
Russ there) for some time, it's difficult to say what response we'll get.
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, May 24, 1998 at 17:54:04 (EDT)
X-Ring and "Depity" Dave:
Thanks for the info. The reason that I inquired is becuase that
L.A. bank robbing incident scared the hell out of me and I wanted to be
ready. Also, I figure that a good AR-15 that has been worked over a bit
would serve as a good short range tactical/sniper rifle if something like
that was needed in a pinch. Good luck, Russ, to your bear hunt, as you
will be back by the time you read this. Also thanks to Ron for the Blackstar
article. Any rifle I have in the future will probably get their business.-------Someone
mentioned that for all the crappola we like to do with their rifles, what
we ought to do is just order a receiver and start from there. I can't find
just a plain ol' receiver sometimes. Anyone know a source on some plain
10-22 receivers? I use my custom to stay sharp and in practice. Good shooting,
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Sunday, May 24, 1998 at 18:47:27 (EDT)
I've taken several tactical courses and am interested in long range
(sniper) shooting. I'm interested in getting a rifle/scope combination
that will work well while I am learning. I would appreciate some advice
on a rifle/scope combination that will work without costing a fortune.
I was thinking of a Remimgton PSS in .308 with a Leupold tactical scope.
I have also looked at a Savage that costs substantially less, but I don't
want to buy something that will not have the necessary accuracy. I would
appreciate any help you can give me.
Sandy Cambron <Shiftysand@aol.com>
Florence, KY USA - Sunday, May 24, 1998 at 21:07:20 (EDT)
About 4 years ago I did a 2 year tour as NCOIC of the Camp Parks,
CA Range & Training Area. Kind of a pogue assignment but what an opportunity!
First of all, the place is so over run with ground squirrels that you can't
drive without killing about 5 of them. Second, it's mostly used only on
weekends and that gave me time alone with my hairy little friends. Third,
I met a lot of fine people there. Many of them were shooters. Since I had
my reloading junk set up, they would sometimes loan me rifles, shotguns
and handguns. One of my friends actually loaned me his Dillon XL 650 press
for about a year! That low-speed assignment turned out to be one of the
most rewarding I've had from a pure-enjoyment standpoint. My favorite bullet
became the Speer 50 grain TNT hollowpoint. The noise made at impact can
best be described as a muffled boiling sound. Visually, it's as if a small
bomb went off inside the body cavity. Only rarely was it necessary to shoot
in excess of 200 meters.
On the advice of this site's correspondents, I bought a Savage 110
FP Tactical rifle upon my PCS to Fort Riley, KS. I'm not a rich guy so
this seemed like a bargain, given the results some of you have obtained.
I found a Simmons Whitetail Classic 6.5-20X50AO scope in the Midway catalogue
for only $150. When I get some time (yeah, right) I'd like to pop some
more squirrels. Has anyone here used the 125 grain .30 cal TNT hollowpoint
in a .308? How might these compare for my intended purpose with the Nosler
Ballistic Tip? The only squirrel I've shot with a .308 was back at Cp Parks.
He absorbed a 185 grain Lapua boat tailed match FMJ at a measured 267 meters
and drove on to the Ranger Objective. I recovered him, still alive, with
a broken back. (I immediately finished him with a 10/22.)
One last thing. It doesn't seem necessary for most types of shooting
to plunge yourself into debt. Individual skill is 90% of the battle.
Ogden, KS USA - Monday, May 25, 1998 at 05:18:11 (EDT)
Outstanding site!!! Former 5th SFG (ABN), 1SF -- Project Delta and
Recondo. Former SWAT, and collateral duty as sniper for federal law enforcement
drug interdiction agency. Own and operate American Shooting Academy in
Phoenix. We offer Tactical and Long Range Tactical Rifle courses approximately
1X per year with a multi-day field sniper problem offered in New Mexico
during the summer and Arizona during the fall. I am currently a professor
of justice. We also offer a full spectrum of tactical handgun and shotgun
courses, and the state required training for Arizona CCW permits.
Call sign: Greywolf
James R. Jarrett, (ABD-phd), MS, DABFE <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Monday, May 25, 1998 at 12:46:57 (EDT)
Paul..I am reluctant to comment on bullets for dangerous game. However
I believe the 125 TNT in .308 to be marginally sufficient for charging
ground squirrels.
Stiff Actions and big guns.
It is a crew served weapon if the action is stiff enough to satisfy
those bench boys. They have a job to do and they do it well but for Tactical
purposes or Hunting dangerous game like ground squirrels and coyotes and
such the garden variety Savage Winchester and Remington flutted barrels
are up to the test. I fired 2 5 shot 500 yard groups with a remington .223
varminter yesterday that is absolutely stock. Smallest was 1.75" and Largest
was 3.0". 15 shots went into .75 at 100 yards using the 55 grain v-max
bullets at 100 and Hornady SX at 500. That's a stock gun and no special
treatments. That is just for those who are on the fence. I had a .223 Savage
that once put 10 rounds in 1" at that distance. My Winchester 30-06 shot
5 rounds into 2.75" at 500 yesterday and it is a featherweight. My point
is consider the weight you will have to pack and the purpose you need it
for. Bench guns and crew served welcome! But be sure you can move with
it if your in dangerous squirrel country!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 25, 1998 at 12:52:53 (EDT)
M70 Info:
I have 2 M70's, one is a med. wt. varmit, the other is the heavy
barrel varmit. Both shoot 1/2 moa with federal 168, or federal 175 GM.
The HB has shot a few 200 yard 1/2" groups. It has done this with both
Rem. 168 match ammo, which it seems to like and 168 federal match. The
med. wt. has a wooden stock that I pillar bedded, with a Leupold 3.5X10
tactical. The HB has the H&S stock, which has been bedded lightly in
the recoil lug area, and at the rear of the action. It also has a Leupold
3.5X10 Leupold tactical scope. Both have had the triggers worked. My Rem.
PSS has taken some time to get to shoot as well as the M70's. The major
improvement came with fire lapping the barrel. The action has also has
been bedded. The fire lapping also made a great improvment on barrel fouling.
It is just about non-existant.
now...Ken
Ken Potter <kpotter@pulsenet.com>
Clarksville, PA USA - Monday, May 25, 1998 at 20:23:10 (EDT)
RE: Cleaning Weapons in the field.
Belleville, IL USA - Monday, May 25, 1998 at 21:55:15 (EDT)
Remington .308 VSSF-- I just got one of these in, two friends and
I are going to present it to a chum of ours who has just retired from his
PD. Overall it's pretty decent, but the crown is horrible. The concaved
muzzle face has three dents in it, and the actual crown, which appears
to be nothing more than a 45 degree chamfer, is anything but concentric.
Looks almost like it was done by running a countersink in by hand. I'm
going to give them a call tomorrow and politely offer to send it back to
them so that their QC people can have a look. I will present it to them
in the spirit of trying to help, not so much as a complaint-- let's see
if they are receptive or defensive...I will report back. The hand-cutting
sharp edges on the receiver are pretty much what I've come to expect on
most new guns these days. Why won't these guys take another five minutes
with a needle file and finish the job anymore? Heck, charge the consumer
$2 a minute more for the job, he'd probably save that much in band-aids
the first year!
Ned C. <michigun@net-link.net>
3R, MI USA - Monday, May 25, 1998 at 22:07:21 (EDT)
In Frontier days, The well equipted rifleman carried a bag with
him
whenever he went outdoors with his rifle. This bag was called a
(possibles bag).
In this bag was things like bullets, patches, tools, firestarter
kit, etc.
I admit to using something similar for my long range plinking sessions.
Among the items that I have in my bag, which I find I need to do
the hard shots
are, logbook, Scientific pocket calculator, compass, an magnetic
angle finder,
which I mount on my spottiing scope, my Dwyer wind meter, an Otis
rifle cleaning
kit, lens cleaning kit, antifog glass treatment, a small tool kit,
and of course
some wipes, I just love gadgets.
Now it is time for the rest of you guys to fess up. What do you
carry
in your (Possibles bag)?
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Monday, May 25, 1998 at 23:00:41 (EDT)
Concord Able on-line
M.W. McCool <McColla@yahoo.com>
Glendale, Tx USA - Monday, May 25, 1998 at 23:15:53 (EDT)
very interesting and informative
norman h. bennett <mahps@worldnet.att.net>
baton rouge, la. USA - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 00:07:52 (EDT)
Bill: What do you know about dangerous squirrel country? Let me
tell you, I was there when it was tough. Yep, there I was...Knee deep in
expended LAW tubes, I fixed my bayonet. I wore the tip off as I stacked
their bodies like cord wood and still they came: a squirrel-wave attack.
Luckily, as the mound of squirrel carcasses grew, the little fellas couldn't
climb up to where I was and that afforded me the time and standoff range
I needed to employ my M67 fragmentation grenades. Rolling them downhill,
ahead of my breakout maneuver (much like indirect fire) the grenades blasted
through the squirrel encirclement, facilitating my escape. I owe my life
to the inventor of the fluted barrel. Without the advent of this ingenious
invention, I would not have been able to pack my gear, nor forward this
account. I have been using an Outer's Foul Out II bore cleaner. It saves
a lot of cleaning rod movement inside the barrel. Another neat thing it
does is to remove all traces of lead from my H&G mould blocks. I'll
give the 55 grain Hornady's a try!
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 02:35:40 (EDT)
Steve,
i also have a possibles bag in which i carry:
kit&caboodle,leupold lens pen,anti fog spray,silva compass,filter
straw for drinking water,mosquito head net,camo triangle cloth, some tape
and wire around a wax pen, two condoms,small pack of kleenex, band-aides,
and a film container with some salt and pain tabletts, betalight torch,
waterproof matches, a rescue blanket (the ultra thin gold and silver type),
and a small candle. also i always carry my gerber tool and a spiderco civilian.
the whole show is in an old german army tool roll to which i attached a
sholderstrap made of 10 feet of paracord.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 11:21:19 (EDT)
A job for SEALS Paul they eat squirrels for breakfast!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 12:16:49 (EDT)
FYI: Found an interesting article, "The Selection of Sniper Personnel"
at http://www.antiterrorism.org/virtualexpo/sniper.html
The article is pretty interesting and it left me wanting some more
in-depth material.
(Non-spam disclaimer: I'm not related in any way to that site, etc.)
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 14:17:23 (EDT)
Like the site. Very well done.Will keep checking back.
T. W. Holt <Tim42@Netzone.com>
Phoenix, Ariz USA - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 15:04:07 (EDT)
Hey guys, read that article that Dave directed us to. It is a real
good one. Just thought that I would let you know.
Nathan Hendrickson <nathanhendrickson@yahoo.com>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 17:38:52 (EDT)
GENERAL NOTICE:
Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 19:50:42 (EDT)
Just got the new issue of Tactical Shooter today, it's another good
one. Sam Chestnut's article on using the Leupold standard duplex reticle
to measure mils was rather interesting. I expect it will save a lot of
people having to spend the extra $ on mil-dot scopes when they're just
starting out.
Also good news on the book front, "Death From Afar V" and Mike Lau's
"The Military and Police Sniper" are supposed to be available as of today.
Bad news (again) for the wallet though!
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, May 26, 1998 at 22:54:25 (EDT)
Is it just me, or did that WSJ article draw a certain fringe element
here? Seeing some rather weird posts in the last couple of days. Too much
testosterone. I suspect a lot of talking the talk and little walking the
walk.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 06:30:23 (EDT)
Yep, Matt
any input ?
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 06:41:49 (EDT)
Looking for a little advice here. Last weekend I went out and bought
a Bushmaster AR-15. Looking to do a litle work to it to help out it's accuracy.
Thinking of a trigger job and free floating the barrel, after that I run
out of ideas. Also, if anyone has any load data that they have found works
well in their AR, I would greatly appreciate it.
Ralph <m1911@earthlink.net>
Houston, Texas USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 11:34:45 (EDT)
Dear SniperCountry,
This is my first time in your site and I am very impressed with
the contents. I am currently serving as a Air Force Security Forces Staff
Sergeant and am very intersested in special operations and long range shooting.
In the past few years I have read numerous books on various sniper missions,
ranging from Gunny Hathcock's story to Joseph Ward's book to Major PLaster's
excellent guide. I am currently tryng to put together some type of sniper
mission for the Air Force. As a Security Forces member, our main responsibility
is force protection. Having recently returned from SWA, I have found a
definite need for a sniper program in the Air Force. Could you please contact
me on any other forms of literature that I can use in my attemtps to establish
this program. Also, I want to appluad the sniper community for their support
of Gunny Hathcock in his fight with such a dibilitating disease. Thank
you for your time.
Kevin D. Satterfield <KSatt24@aol.com>
Jacksonville, AR USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 12:10:53 (EDT)
Has anyone here ever shot any of those bullets you can make using
polyethylene spheres as filler? Corbin Manufacturing makes and markets
bullet swage equipment, including the spheres, called bullet balls. Once
you place the ball underneath the bullet core inside the jacket you can
then seat the core. Then you form the ogive in another die. This gives
you a light-for-length bullet of otherwise standard dimension. With a little
adjustment, it would seem that one could make longer (higher B.C.) bullets
of standard weights just by using longer jackets and, given proper throating
dimensions, shoot them with better results at longer ranges.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 13:01:06 (EDT)
Ralph: I have a Bushmaster shorty AR-15 ("pre-ban" as they say)
with the 16.5" heavy fluted barrel. Along with various other modifications
I had a JP Enterprises trigger assembly installed in it a while back. It's
not great, but it's a LOT better than it was previously. Mind you, I'm
also very spoiled after experiencing really good triggers thanks to gunsmiths
like Ted Yost. In any case the JP setup still has a little creep and the
break isn't perfectly crisp, but it's a good trigger still and as I said
worlds above the way things were from the factory, which was pretty awful.
I rather like the Black Hills moly/match ammo for that gun, although
I have no desire to have it set up for a "sniper"/.25MOA role - this carbine
is a general-purpose one. It's topped with a 4x32 ACOG with the TA01 reticle
which I think highly of.
If your gun is a "pre-ban" model and you can legally put a flash
suppressor on, I recommend the Vortex model... but only after you have
the external edges of the Vortex dehorned. As it comes the edges are sharp
as heck.
Enjoy your new AR.
Dave
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 13:39:03 (EDT)
Ralph, look into the Armalite two stage trigger, it allows you to
tune out the creep without loosing all of your sear engagement when the
rifle is on safe. it works alot like the Garand style with the pivioting
disconect on the back of the trigger itself. The free float tube will help
as will a custom barrel.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 14:37:43 (EDT)
Elijah,
Before you "preregister" into the Marine "Core" (it's called the
Delayed Entry Program, knucklehead-----it's not a freakin' high school
class!!), LEARN TO SPELL IT MAGGOT! It's Marine CORPS!!!!!! Semper Fi,
and welcom aboard.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 18:11:08 (EDT)
1. Matt you beat me to telling off the little kid that couldn't
even spell CORPS.
2. For anyone that hasn't gotten their June Midway catalog their
web site will be up in June:
http://www.midwayusa.com
How do you like the look of the new catalog, better to spend your
money at my friends!! Later
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 18:31:46 (EDT)
A mustang flying tanker.
Major Glenn Honeycutt, USMC (Ret) <TANKnFLY@aol.com>
Woodbridge, VA USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 20:26:16 (EDT)
One thing for sure Eli you don't want to mess with a bunch of guys
that shave their heads, get up at 4 am and spell Corps without the letter
e. Whoever said Marines could spell anyway? But the 18 thing you should
observe sure nuff. How I wish I was under 18 again! Enjoy it.
Someone asked about the SX's and it occurred to me to caution that
the Hornady SX is a bullet for slow twists and not too much velocity as
it will disentegrate in flight if shot through too great a twist or at
speeds above 3200 it can come apart. Being thin jacketed it does tend to
form to the rifling and shoot rather nicely into a tight group. Some loads
are 25.5 grains varget, 19.5 IMR 4198 (slow) and 25 grain Accurate 2230.
If the twist is more than 1 in 9 forget it.
The rifle I was using is 1 in 12. The PSS is something like 1 in
9 making SX's deform too much and accuracy will suffer. The Vmax's and
other plastic pointers will shoot better in the fast twists and will also
shoot good in the slow twists but they just don't kill as well on Varmints
and the likes. The SX will turn the insides to hamburger helper at any
range if it penetrates the outside. IF you shoot the SX in 22-250 use 4064
about 40 gr and the velocity will be slow enough. (3200 or so) 22 Swift
or Wildkittys forget the SX's.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 20:48:53 (EDT)
LONG RANGE SHOOTER. CURRENTLY INACTIVE DUE TO NECK SURJURY.
ALWAYS LOOKING FOR GOOD INFO. GOOD SITE. CARRY ON.
D. RICE <DAN
RICE 70400.671@COMPUSERVE.COM >
BATON ROUGE, LA. USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 20:58:12 (EDT)
Ralph: Try a Nosler 55 gr balistic tip over 25.2 gr W748 lit by
a Federal benchrest primer. Works good for me in my 20" Bushmaster H-BAR
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Wild Wonderful, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, May 27, 1998 at 22:44:27
(EDT)
Torsten: Tetra is good stuff. I use it on everything...that is except
my rifle bores. The particles bond so well to rough metal surfaces that
they can only be removed by an abrasive. Black Star advises to not use
it nor Friction Block, etc. since it's so hard to remove. If you don't
plan the Black Star treatment for your bore then Tetra would be an excellent
lubricant. I recommend starting with a surgically clean bore first, though,
because you don't want to trap jacket fouling against powder fouling (which
holds moisture) against your bore.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 00:16:17 (EDT)
Finally got a chance to get back and let yall know that the info
on the Savage trigger "fix" was right on !!
Spent the last hour or two reading most of the posts .
So now I will toss this out as a question and see who bites ??
What about polygonal after market barrels for rifles ??
I had and still do have a Peters/Stahl barrel in my Govt. .45 and
it drives tacks !!! No prep other than fitting and after about 10,000 drs
still does a fine job. Too bad I can't say that for any rifle barrel I
have had . Currently I have a Douglas on my Ruger and a factory on the
Rem. 700v lam. and factory on the Savage with the Sav. being the newest
!!! Both the Douglas and Rem required lapping (thank God for JB paste)
and now shoot just fine !!!!! After having BTDT if its past 800 m I will
just wait til they get that bit closer to ruin whatever's day !!!!! I won't
even start on scopes but out of our goup here in the southeast 9 of 10
use Leupolds in one way or another !!! Nuff said !!
Keep this place going !!! Thanks
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 05:39:09 (EDT)
Will,
I have not made a final decision about the length.
Overall I can say that the polygonal barrel causes less pressure
peaks due to a more gentle transition of the bullet into the barrel profile.
Germany - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 08:51:12 (EDT)
Tortsen I'll just echo your comments on the barrels. 20" hvy would
be a good place to start. I never put enough rounds through one to test
the longevity but suspect what you say is correct. Pistol Barrels of course
will outlast rifle barrels several times over obviously and the problems
are different for the uninitiated that wonder about some of the comments.
Didn't HK build some rifles with the polygon barrels. I seem to remember
having one or did I dream that?
I've owned some but it's been 10 years ago. The HK's I had were
no more accurate than any other Semi.in Hk91 and 93 models.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 09:52:31 (EDT)
Ralph,
I see that some have already answered your question, but I figured
I'd toss in a few comments also. First thing: Is your Bushmaster barrel
Chrome lined? If so, start saving to replace it if you plan on building
an accurate competition rifle, or hole puncher. It will do "ok" for quite
a long time, but it will not allow you to shoot to the accuracy potential
of the rifle. Chrome lining serves only one purpose: Barrel Longevity.
A barrel maker conserned with accuracy OVER longevity will NEVER use chrome
lining. The chroming process is imprecise and the internal diameter will
vary the length of the bore. Bushmaster and others, while selling excellent
products overall, have fallen for the "longer lasting is better" method
of barrel construction. If it is Chrome lined, it is not truly "National
Match". And it is never more accurate!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 11:18:15 (EDT)
Sorry the above was so long! I wanted to give Ralph as much info
on what He could do himself to improve his AR. There are other things,
best left to a gunsmith, that could be done, but everything listed above,
including replacement of the barrel with a top quality tube, can be done
at home with simple tools - as well as some specialized tools that any
AR owner is well advized to purchase. The AR is unique in that you personally
can build a shooter via accuracy tweeks that you would not be able to do
on a bolt gun or other semi-auto. Ralph: books of reference worth buying,
the military armorers manual, and John Feamsters "Black Magic". The first
will give you the specs you need, the other will detail the additions you
can make and why you might want to do them.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 14:06:20 (EDT)
I have recently purchased a Remington 700 PSS DM which I have yet
to fire. I would appreciate any information on how to properly "break in"
the barrel.
I have heard mention of break in periods for barrels but I am unaware
of the specifics. Please email me with any advice.
Thanks.
Mike <niteeyes20@ids.net>
Coventry, RI USA - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 14:29:13 (EDT)
I would appreciate any comments or observations on the use or non-use
as the case may be of the NECO fire-lapping system for stainless factory
barrels
James Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
www.frontieradventures.com, WY USA - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 20:42:53
(EDT)
V.P., the Tallahassee Rifle and Pistol Club
T. Dave Gowan <dgowan@tfn.net>
Crawfordville, FL USA - Thursday, May 28, 1998 at 21:59:00 (EDT)
For TorF , When and if you start making those polygonal barrels
I sure would like one for the Rem. preferably 22" and heavy fluted !!!
As to current makers of OEM Poly barrels - both H&K and Steyr
have had the polygonal barrels . I would think that some of our USA manufacturers
would wise up and start putting them on , with the availability of hammer
forging
and all.......seems to make sense??????
TorF , drop me an email as to time frame and cost of barrel!! That
sure beats the heck out of trying to break in a current barrel !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 06:40:01 (EDT)
Will,
Germany - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 07:28:19 (EDT)
If you got a Savage and want a great trigger look in Precision shooting's
latest issue. I already have one of these triggers, it was installed by
the designer.
Back, At U USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 08:52:54 (EDT)
I think your web page is doing a great job. Also another great job
at the Hatcock Comp. Keep up the good work. Would like to see more events
like that one. I had a great time for a great cause. Thanks
Rae Herig <rherig@hotmail.com>
Muncie, IN USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 10:58:17 (EDT)
First of all, I would like to say thanks to Scott, Deputy Dave,
Rich, Dave and the others that responded to my post. The information I
get from this page is invaluable to me as I make my way from serious compitition
pistol shooting to competition rifle. This is a new sport (religion?) to
me. Though I have been shooting rifles all my life, I have never shot competitively
with one. It's great to know that I can throw out a newbie question on
this board and not get "rifled" because I'm a beginner here.
Ralph Horne <m1911@earthlink.net>
Houston, Texas USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 14:19:44 (EDT)
Scott,
George L.. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 14:20:50 (EDT)
George: You can point your browser to http://www.tacticalshooter.com/blkmagic.html
for the ordering info. (Like many other excellent titles, this book is
available via Precision Shooting)
Dave
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 16:21:22 (EDT)
Dave,
Oakland, CA USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 17:08:31 (EDT)
Re: "Black Magic" and "The Competitive AR-15" (Longish of course.)
Let me redirect a couple of my old postings from the AR-15L list.
http://www.ar15.com/
Listers,
Just received my copy of BLACK MAGIC by John Feamster today and
it certainly looks like a winner. It will be a "must have" book for all
AR-15 accuracy enthusiasts. Although I haven't read the book, just picking
out parts here and there (like accuracy testing with long shot strings,
T-tests, etc) leads me to believe that he is very serious about real world
performance. And that's what we want isn't it?
=======================
I like it a lot, and can recommend it to anyone who is into accurate
AR-15s. Good articles about 1000 yd. shooting, loading heavy bullets, chambering
reamers, Army Marksmanship Team Unit build ups, Varmint rifles, Space guns,
cleaning techniques of competition shooters, etc. Almost all
group sizes are from 10-shots or more. BTW the total book thickness
is 25 mm. Size is 22.5 cm X 14.5 cm. There are 290 pages and 7 chapters.
I recommend it and can not see how anyone can go wrong. And that is saying
a lot. There is no "fluff" in this book just to take up space. The only
thing I can find fault with is on page 165. He said he was getting pin-hole
leaks at the edge of the primers and it was pock marking his bolt face.
He attributed it to primers which were not tight in the case. Actually
this problem is from "seamed" primer cups. American Rifleman had and article
on it many years back. When the primer cup is formed a wrinkle is created
when the material doesn't quite form correctly. I had this problem happen
to me about 8 years ago with large rifle primers in a long range 6mm Rem.
prone rifle. I sent the back to Federal and they sent me some money ($20.00)
and said the problem was old primers that had stress cracks. I saved one
of the cases and the pierced primer and can definitely see the crack or
seam in the side of the primer if I use a 10X loupe. Actually it does look
like a jagged crack, but that may be from gas
eroding the material under the nickel plating on the primer. Anyhow,
the results are the same; a small pit in your boltface. So if you see this
happening discontinue use of that particular lot of primers. With a bolt
gun you'll see a little puff of smoke coming out of the back of the bolt,
and I suppose it could squirt some oil in your eye.
Basic safety rules
Brass selection and preparation
Total indicator run-out (TIR) and gas gun reloading
Progressive vs. single-stage reloading
Powder selection ---ball vs. extruded powders
Tailored loads --the careful handloader's secret weapon
Mexican Match --NOT the ultimate answer
Superior long-range ammo, the USAMU way
Bullet Selection Your actual mileage may vary..... (VLD bullets
and Ballistics)
Cutting-edge bullet seating tricks
Primers
Factory match ammunition
Comments on moly-coating
====================
I just received the new book called "THE COMPETITIVE AR15 the mouse
that roared" by Glen Zediker. Although I haven't read it yet, just paging
through it tells me it is another "must have" book for accuracy enthusiasts.
The book is geared towards High Power shooting, but don't let that dissuade
you. Everything is transferable to varmint hunting, plinking, sniping,
etc. All you High Power shooters who get Shooting Sports knows who he is.
But I want to tell you that that the info in this book is written to a
much higher level that what he puts in Shooting Sports. Those articles
are just the usual bubble gum type articles with out any depth and are
quite dissappointing.
Cleaning, maintenance, methods
Handloading: This section it 80 pages long. Nothing here about beginning
reloading either. This is all advanced stuff.
Triggers, sights (front/rear service rifle) (match rifle)
Bolt carriers
PPCs
Phone: (219) 493-1858
FAX : (219) 493-2530
e-mail: sinclair@ctinet.com
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 17:33:48 (EDT)
Wow,
I just read Rons lengthy post on the ar-15 book. At the
begining he talks about seammed primers, I too have experienced
this phenomenom more times than I care to admit,(always with cci primers)
and I couldnt resist the urge to stir the pot a little more. There was
a thread going earlier about model 70 actions verses 700 actions and I
just had to share this, IF you guys ever run into a lot of seamed primers
, I hope it is not while shooting a m70 or a m700. The escaping gasses
will flow thru the firing pin hole, thru the escape ports in the bolt,
along the left raceway, and then right into your eye. I speak with the
voice of experience on this. And the m700 is not much better in this regard.
Always wear saftey glasses when shooting. OR shoot a 98 mauser.
To Ron:
Thanks for the information. By the way, is there a chapter in this
book about how to stop a ar-15 from sounding like a typewriter falling
down a stairsteps when you pull the trigger?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, May 29, 1998 at 18:12:09 (EDT)
Steve, Re Ar-15 Noise Problem:
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Lost But Loving It In, West Virginia USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at
08:08:29 (EDT)
Outstanding Sniper page. I am a Correction Officer waiting for a
sniper slot on the Special Responce Team, I am next in line for the position.
If anyone has information that would benifit me for passing the DR&C
Sniper School, I would appreciate it. I believe our school is just marksmanship/range
training. The only sniper experience I have is from shooting with my units
military snipers on the U.S. Southcom shooting team just for G.P. I havn't
had any sniper schooling to speak of.Feel free to send e-mail to SRThammer@Juno.com
Thankyou for your time.
C/O Parker <SRThammer@Juno.com>
Columbus, OH USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at 10:52:17 (EDT)
T-SHIRTS! T-Shirts!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at 11:41:51 (EDT)
Ron a few more sentence's bud and we would have read the book. J/K.
Hey have a question. I have a Rem. 700 VSSF. My plan was to have it painted.
I have been debating about what process i should have Robar do to it. I
was thinking between the blacking of stainless steel, or the phosphating/parkerizing
process. If anyone has had it done or has a suggestion let me know.
Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
VA USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at 13:54:52 (EDT)
Gentlemen:
American Shooting Academy
P.O. Box 54233
Phoenix, Arizona 85078
(602) 581-6606
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
phoenix, az USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at 14:27:23 (EDT)
Gentlemen:
American Shooting Academy
Phoenix, Az USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at 15:06:52 (EDT)
To Paul Headlee: On cost vs. skill -- my words exactly. I've got
some moly-coated 125-grain Nosler BTs for .308 varmint work (like I've
got nothing ELSE to do these days... yeah, right) once I get a chance to
do some load development. However, I'm considering them for larger "varmints"
-- coyotes, groundhogs, drug dealers who sell their wares to school children...
WAIT! I didn't SAY that! (Did I?)
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at 15:19:06 (EDT)
First Nauga chaser don't have a chance. I believe you are a bit
fiesty after a bear hunt! No Paul he has us there! I did serve on the Siberian
border as a Nauga Skinner but quite honestly and I know I can confess here
among friends that I never had the nerve to stalk a Nauga! I've heard of
guys who used shotguns in heavy bamboo forests and climbed into tunnels
with .45s that have never stalked a Nauga. shivers me to think of it!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart>
USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at 16:19:38 (EDT)
Hey, I am trying to find out information on Gunnery Seargent Carlos
Hathcock from Vietnam if you have any information please E-Mail me! Thanks
Rory Nolan <Sniper2738@aol.com>
Ridgefield, Connecticut USA - Saturday, May 30, 1998 at 18:39:52 (EDT)
A Nauga? African or European?
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 05:19:35 (EDT)
Amen, James. A sniper who is so lacking in self control isn't really
what we've come to think of recently as being a sniper...just another killer.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@sprynet.com>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 05:30:09 (EDT)
HI!!!
Alexandre <zsnsk@wsnet.ru>
Surgut, Tumen Russia - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 05:42:15 (EDT)
Nice to see a site doing something to benefit Carlos while keeping
alive a civilian sport as well as a military necessity - Semper Fi
Dennis Higgins <raskal@execpc.com>
Racine, Wi USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 09:53:57 (EDT)
I am a SF SSG I just ETSed from the Army i have been a sniper for
about 6 years and i am glad to see that someone out here has Built a site
about the Art of Sniping. I have been all over the world and been through
many Army Schools and Special Tactics training and I think the hardest
school that I went to was sniper school. Sniper school taught me the self
control and patience that got me as far as I did in the Military. So thank
you for taking the time to build this sight.
7th Special Forces Group
FT. Bragg
One shot One Kill
Lawrence, Nathan
Tecumseh, MI USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 11:51:53 (EDT)
WEREWOLF? Russ, very interesting, we have to talk when you are in
country.
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 13:07:40 (EDT)
Good morning gentlemen:
Director
American Shooting Academy
Phoenix, Arizona
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 13:43:12 (EDT)
To James Jarrett: Jim I agree with almost everthing that you said.Any
time you pull the trigger on someone it has to be for moral reasons,otherwise
it's just murder.I disagree with you however when you say that too many
military and police snipers currently don't have morals or ethics.It may
be unintentional but you are accusing most of them of becoming snipers
just so they have an excuse for shooting someone.I seriously doubt if many
of these snipers , probably none,are actually looking forward to killing
someone.It's kind of a parodox in that it's something that you train so
hard for and yet hope that you never actually have to do it for real.
Kodiak
USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 16:04:40 (EDT)
Though currently a 1stLt in the Marine Corps, I had the pleasure
of going through the 2nd Marine Division Scout Sniper School class of 1/91,
back when I was a LCpl. The best moment of that school came when GnySgt
Carlos Hathcock came to our graduation. Even as weak as he was at that
time, he went out of his way to come to our graduation to talk with us
and to share in our graduation ceremony. I would like very much to do something
now to show my appreciation. What can I do to help the Gny?
1stLt USMC, Judge Advocate
Mario Russica <mrussica@aol.com>
Brunswick, OH USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 16:30:21 (EDT)
Torsten: About the 92 barrel project--I have been forced to put
it on the back-burner. I bought another barrel assembly to use for the
project (so it can still be used in service match competitions). Also my
experienced lathesman (my dad) is on vacation, and you know how fathers
can be when you play with their toys. I'm glad to hear that Cylinder &
Slide does this kind of modification. Also convenient since they are only
two hours away....
Manhattan, KS USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 16:38:25 (EDT)
Found this on British Aerospace website:
COMPETITION WIN
$8.5m contract to develop and produce the revolutionary
Objective Individual Weapon System (OICW) for the US
armed forces.
contractor, the team will develop this individual weapon which
fires both standard 5.56mm rounds and 20mm air bursting
grenades for use against hidden targets.
tactical trials.
with US forces on this weapon allows us to demonstrate both
the stength of our design capability and the economies
possible with modern manufacturing processes. This weapon
will be more than just a step-change from its predecessors."
and M203 grenade launcher used by the US Army, Marine
Corps, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Special Operations
Command.
British Aerospace Ordnance. The OICW team consists of
Alliant Techsystems, Contraves Brashear Systems Inc (fire
control system), Heckler & Koch (weapon design,
development and manufacture in the USA) and Dynamit
Nobel AG (5.56mm ammunition product improvement and HE
propulsion system). Alliant is the prime contractor with the
responsibility for total weapon system integration, testing and
HE ammunition.
and 5 times the effectiveness of current assault rifles.
5.56mm kinetic energy ammunition for direct and
suppressive fire and 20mm HE air bursting ammunition
for use against hidden targets.
control for both calibres of ammunition.
to pinpoint the exact target range at which the HE
round will burst and autonomously release the range
information to the round's detonating fuze;
weapon system.
uncooled infra-red sensor technology for night vision.
components of the weapon so they can function as
individual rifles depending on specific mission
requirements.
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 17:15:24 (EDT)
Very interesting website:
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 17:39:12 (EDT)
Kodiak:
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 17:45:44 (EDT)
One more try..
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 17:45:56 (EDT)
James: Have you got the mind reader ASI or something?
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 18:17:53 (EDT)
H & K's official website!
Oslo, - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 19:38:16 (EDT)
Re: bedding AR-15 upper/lower
I don't think you will find any accuracy gains by bedding the rifle.
Myself and others have proved that it just doesn't help. This rifle shoots
fine loose. It does feel a little better and doesn't shake as much.
=============
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 20:00:12 (EDT)
Re: BlackStar AR-15 barrels
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Sunday, May 31, 1998 at 22:44:03 (EDT)