April 1999

Got a remake on a Colt 7.62x39 flat top converted to 5.56. She is now wearing a Bushmaster 26" heavy 1x9. Put an RPA 1/4 min rear sight (mounts right on top or any weaver mount)and an adjustable front base with a Tompkins front sight and I have me a shooter. She will shoot the Hornady 75gr A-max w/24.5 Varget better'n me at 600. Haven't tried her at 1000 yet but thats coming. What do you think, a keeper?

Shadow
Tim <timdel@open.org>
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 03:39:25 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the reply. The thing that was confusing about the article was that the author seem to imply that recoil vs. terminal velocity was the key. The guys at SC did not seem to agree at all. I asked the questions because I did not have the experience to know if his examples were valid or not. The way the article was written he seem to be saying that the .257 was hitting much harder, hence the confusion.

Eyeman
EyeMan <stepmont@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 05:40:50 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 12:43:29 (ZULU) 

I called Savage with the question of what the torque should be of the two pillar bedded stock screws: 25 ft/lbs (or however you write it). I set mine to this, based on this answer, and I felt that it was on the low side of tight. They were tightened, but not
won't-vibrate-open tight, so I asked if there would be any ramifications of tightening the screws any further. I was told that the reason the screws should not be tighter is that you run the risk of "causing the bolt to close hard" (I assume from the protruding through the action and into the bolt). There didn't seem to be any other reason why the screws couldn't be tightened further.

Truth be told, I had mine up to about 50 with no ill effects, so use your best judgement, about 35 might be perfect, but be aware of the official numbers.

Also I couldn't get any instructions egarding stripping the bolt down for cleaning. They say let a gunsmith do it. Whatever.

Anyway this might be of some interest to any Savage tactical owners.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 15:11:02 (ZULU) 

For those of you who do not log into the Roster via the main page, you might have missed Sniper Country’s new section, The Sniper Country PX.

Yup. That is right. I have decided to retail some of the gear we are all interested in. I hope I can keep the prices down so that we all can enjoy this stuff at a reasonable fee. The prices might change based on what happens with the sales and shipping end. With luck, I will be able to under sell most of the normal outlets. Some prices might go down. Only time will tell.

I am excited to announce that I will be carrying Mike Miller’s Tactical slings as well as the other products listed. Also I am working on the IOR 7x40 binos I got to play with last weekend. Hold your optics cash guys. These things blow away the glass coming out of the orient. Best of all they are very affordable. I did not get to test them but they were clear to the edges and very bright. Mil reticle. Armored. The quality is outstanding. If you can get them elsewhere, DO SO NOW! But if you can wait a short bit, we’ll have them too. These things rank right up there with the big names. I think Zeiss is part of the production team. They cost less than the Tasco Offshore’s I wrote about! My goal is to bring you good deals like this when I find them.

This will be the last I have to say on the Roster about the PX. The MAIN site’s goal remains the same as always and I do NOT want the Roster to turn into a sales department! If you have specific questions please direct them to me at xring@voicenet.com. Please avoid using the Roster for this as I do not want it to become a sales platform. Check the PX occasionally as you might miss something of interest. With luck, it will always be growing.

As the PX grows I hope to be able to offer you items at the best price around. If this does not work out, well, at least we tried. I hope you all can benefit from the growth of Sniper Country. Please think of the PX as a separate entity, but made possible by SC. The PX is there for your benefit. The "magazine" portion of the site will not change. The reviews will remain true and honest and the direction of the site will continue as is. Thanks for your time and please forgive the business talk. Now back to the good stuff.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 16:37:54 (ZULU) 

Thanks for any info...
Brian
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 17:06:59 (ZULU) 

sorry for that glitch, but I have no idea how that happened, or how to prevent it in future. Those of you who were missing a week's information, it was because, at some stage, somebody succeeded in including the first part of the Roster in their post. Thus it appeared as if some was missing, but I assure you it was not.

Take care, and enjoy your Easter. Remember what it is all about.

See you all next week.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 18:48:18 (ZULU) 

I flubbed it on "down under"

how about "Significantly below the Mason-Dixon line"

"Lower than Cro-Magnum......"

"Little lower than Homo-erectus but right around Homo-Afrikanus"

off to play with "crayons, cards, and courtesy" for the night

chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 19:03:26 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:13:20 (ZULU) 

Andre,
Don't you mean 25 "INCH" pounds and not "FOOT" pounds for torque on the action screws for the Savage?? I don't have any Savages but I am sure that they would not be torqued in "FOOT" pounds. I would hate to see someone twist off their action screws this is a easy mistake to make when talking torque because we usually think of it as "FOOT" pounds.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:16:01 (ZULU) 

Don't know how I missed that.

Savage pillar bedded stock screws should be tightened to 25 inch/lbs NOT ft/lbs. Obvious, but I misprinted it anyway.

Thanks for catching me Pat before I caused someone to get really pissed!

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:54:16 (ZULU) 

M. Hite <michael_hite@maxtor.com>
longmont, co, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 21:47:38 (ZULU) 

Did you hear they found a new use for sheep in Montana?
They get wool from 'em.

Any way, please remember it's a joke. I love Montana, been there several times and the bore cleaner works fine. If you have an unreasonable fear of ammonia, stay away.
Butch, E-mail me and I'll tell you wear top send the T-shirt.
Oh, yeah, do not buy online or e-mail from anyone but Russ Haydon's shooter's supply. Great people

God bless those guys being held in Serbia.
 

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 00:22:57 (ZULU) 

What are your real requirements in a scope? If varminting is you true goal, look no further than the B&L Elite 4000 line. The 6-24x scope is excellent. While I do not like 1/8 moa clicks for various reasons not worth devling into here, this scope is just great out to about 450 to 500 yards with the .308 win. After that forget it as it does not have enough elevation unless you go to tapered bases.

Try to stick with 1/4 moa clicks for target and varmint with this caliber. These will have more internal adjustment. You'll need it. Also look at the Leupold line. They have a lot of choices. So many I lose track. I think they have a 6-20x that has a lot of internal adjustment. Visit their site. Or visit Premier Reticles. Check our Links section for the addresses.

One thing -- on your goal of shooting deer at 500 yards, please practice A LOT at this range before you try such a shot. I know a lot of guys read this site and assume one can take really long shots on game animals and win, but it does not take much to end up wounding your game. They deserve better treatment. It is easy to confuse sniping with hunting. Very similar skill set. But in sniping if a troop wounds a bad guy, so it goes. Kills are better but woundings tie up enemy resources too. But in hunting we all owe it to the game and fellow hunters to assure a KILL. Wounded animals just give those bone head anti-hunting "I buy my meat in stores" types something to cry about and take to congress. If you believe in hunting and hunting rights, ONE shot ONE kill is paramount. Sorry for the soap box.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 00:51:46 (ZULU) 

JEFF <jkCartwright@Blomand.net>
McMinnville, TN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 02:35:40 (ZULU)

As a practical matter, would a 12-40 power spotting scope have a great advantage over a fixed 25 power such as the Leupolds? This scope will have to double for bench and field.

In a field condition, would a spotter have a spotting scope with a mildot or would the shooter be responsible for milling the target?

Trying to find info on binocular powers. For hunting and field use, what is the ideal power realitive to carry weight and size? The Steiners are going to be out of my price range. Would rather apply a little more money to the spotting scope.

In a field condition, would a binocular with rangefinding or a mildot be of practical use? It would seem redundant and timeconsumiing to take the time to range find with the binos and then with the rifle scope.

I spoke with a nationally ranked long range shooter recently and he indicated that he does not lap his scope rings. If the rings are properly alligned using an anlignment tool, is lapping a benificial process? Does removing the finish on the inside of the rings lead to oxidation? How do you know when you have completed the lapping process?
 
 
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 02:37:21 (ZULU) 

There isn't too much advantage to a 40 over a 25, though I'm sure I'll get incoming over that comment. The Leupold 25x is very small, and can be had with an OD case with ALICE clips, and Mil-dots with 1 mil spacing... a very nice spotters rig.
The 12-40 Leupold can also be had with 1 mil dots... but is larger (and more expensive).

>In a field condition, would a spotter have a spotting scope
>with a mildot or would the shooter be responsible for
>milling the target?

It would be ideal if the spotter can read mils... first, the spotter will be doing the ranging, the math, and windage... and it would be good for two opinions on the target size in mils. Second, if the first shot is off (heaven forbid) the spotter can quickly give a correction in mils, and the shooter can hold the correction, and fire.

I would vote for cheap bins, and a good scope.
Bins usually have their graduations in 5 or 10 mils, and that (for me) isn't fine enough.

"How do you know when you have completed the lapping process?"

When all the bluing is gone!
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:05:39 (ZULU) 

Little anectdote for the 'rusty bore' crowd. I was diggin' around the chamber lathe's barrel rack and found a 7BR XP100 barrel there. It was chambered, threaded, teflon coated, the whole 9 yds. This is unusual to be lying around the barrel racks so I ask the chambering god, "Hey, why is this barrel here?" He says we built a 7BR for this guy, shot like a champ, sent it off to him. A couple weeks later the gun comes back with a note attached saying that," ...it shot great, but there seems to be rust in the bore...", so he wanted a new barrel. I had never laughed so hard in my life, we use stainless steel barrels.

later
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:14:01 (ZULU) 

All ideas welcome.
Thanks
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:17:49 (ZULU) 

no comprende on the barrel defect you speak of. Is this scratch inside the bore? off the crown? Is this a used gun? If this is a new gun and your rifling is already bunged up, I'd be giving Remington a call instead of posting on this site. Accuracy may or may not be affected, but a defect such as that would just love to 'foul' up your day.

adios

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:24:42 (ZULU) 

I have a sheperd scope on my 7 mag. so far i have shot it out to 700 yrds. at ranges to there it is right on the money for drop. The optics
are good too. it is brighter with its 40mm lens than my tasco world class 50mm was. (i realise thats not saying much).

The one shot zero crap they advertise doesnt work but what the hell.
The ranging works great for me with 150 gr bt bullets. If you get one be sure to buy the reticle that matches the weight and speed bullets you are going to shoot.

I have no experince with the springfield scope but the reticle looked less user friendly to me. they both have web sites.
hope this helps.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:25:33 (ZULU) 

I don't know a whole hell of a lot about hammer forged barrels, but we used to make a few button barrels, no more, but we used to copper plate the bore after pulling the button through. Now this wouldn't be the 'rust' this guy is seeing, is it guys??
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
snowed in, rapid city, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:29:49 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:45:36 (ZULU) 

Slings are like this. I am spending all my extra time making them. Rod Ryan had placed the first and a huge order so his will be filled first. Scott and TRGT placed orders at same time so they will get shipped after Rod's. All places have agreed to charge the same price $50.00 plus shipping Retail. If you guys want the slings please call Rod, Scott or TRGT, they have all taken a chance on the product and I wont be doing sales to compete with my friends. Now the guys I promised slings to before all this transpired, they will be shipped next week if I have to stay up all night to do them. I am getting pretty good with this souped up sewing machine, I just hope I dont sew my hand to the table (again)

The UnDude Mike

Pete I am going to load some Varget this week no matter what my friend.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:56:55 (ZULU) 

Another reason I say "Why Cro-Moly??" It's a pain in the ass to machine AND it rusts!!! What rifling process does Remington use on their SS barrels? I just received one the other day, was wondering if the Hammer Forge process was used on them. Wouldn't take long to find out, have a bore scope handy.
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:00:21 (ZULU) 

Thank you.
Joey
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:30:42 (ZULU) 

Hope that helps.

Rock
Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
TN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:37:30 (ZULU) 

I'd save up the extra pennies and just go with the Springfield. By the time you buy the parts and have the work done to the Poly-Tech, you will have almost the same amount invested. You will never be sorry buying quality. Heck, think of the resale potential, that in itself is worth it, even if you dont think you will ever sell the rifle.

Im not totally knocking the Chinese M14's...they do work with a "makeover" (like Smith Enterprises provides), but in this case, get the Springfield.

Just my .02 (Confederate) cents.
Grenadier2 <grenadier2@earthlink.net>
FireBase Bandit, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:47:06 (ZULU) 

Question:Is it true that Varget powder wears a bore faster?
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 05:33:34 (ZULU) 

Alot of typing about the military M49 spotting scope. Are any military spotting scopes or binos available to the public and where can you get them?

As usual, thanks
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:34:57 (ZULU) 

The Answer: Leupold or B&L.

If you just have to have one of the others the Sprinfield would probably make more sense. Since you are using it on a .223, get the one with the 40mm objective.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:38:33 (ZULU) 

Bolt: On Binos. 7x40 are about the largest you'd want to carry. I carry a set of 7x50s but only because they happen to be pretty light as 50s go. When you start adding up all of the other useful crap you have to hump, it just does not make sense to carry really big glass. 10x50s are definitely out. Heavy. More eye strain. A quality set of 7x40s will be VERY bright. Brighter than junk 10x50s. Way brighter.

Another thing to think about, the larger the glass, the less steady the image. You can glass an objective or target area for quite some time with a 7x40. When you move up to bigger glasses you will see more jiggle and you will usually suffer more eye strain over the same time period. It is better to use smaller binos to scan an area and then switch to the spotting scope to ID things that catch your eye. Typical hunters trick.

You will not find many spotting scopes with mil reticles. In some cases they can be installed by Premier. The binos should always have mils in them for this reason.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:57:54 (ZULU) 

Seriously though, if you are worried about rust, you can easily re-blue the metal with a cold blue process. I wouldn't bother though. All I would do is mask off the rings and hit the bare area with some red-oxide Rustoleum primer. If you wanted, you can then paint the inside of the ring with a coat of matt black paint.

I know a lot of people say you do not need to lap rings. Most are hunters and casual shooters. But some are top flight masters. I look at it this way, it won’t hurt and it certainly will help. I did not do this practice for years. But if you are very attentive when you install the rings, you will notice that they almost NEVER line up exactly. When you drop a scope in, this is easy to miss, but if you leave the ring tops off and lay a steel rod in the rear ring and slide it forward -- while assuring it stays in contact with the inside of the ring -- you will usually note that when the rod gets to the forward ring it does not slide right in. It usually hits the bottom lip or edge of the second ring. This is showing you a misalignment. It’ll stress your scope or action. Most people think of lapping as a way to solve the side to side twist that turret type bases can allow, but you also have to worry about VERTICAL misalignment. One ring can be higher than another, especially with two piece bases. But even a good set of one piece bases can allow this because the ACTION itself might not be perfect. If there is twist introduced into the set up because the mounting screw holes are drilled a little off center in the receiver, the base will have twist in it – resulting in ring misalignment.

If you use a rod to mount the rings in alignment with out actually lapping them in, what are you doing? Stressing the action? The rings are forced into alignment and the steel rod is stronger than the open action. When you remove the rod form the rings, the action will unload. Now when you install the scope and tighten the ring caps, you are stressing the scope. The is no free lunch. If you do not lap the rings, something else will have to give if misalignment is present.

The job takes about 15 minutes to a half hour. Simple Elbow grease. No brains required. The result removes one more variable from your system and as well know, variables are what kills accuracy. Dive right in and do not worry about removing the finish. That can easily be covered up! Good luck.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 13:21:38 (ZULU) 

I'm sure this info will be very useful to me and a few other Savage owners. You forgot the cardinal rule of dissassembling things however: The number of loose parts left on the workbench after the job must equal EXACTLY the number of loose parts that were there before you started ripping things apart. That's the theory anyway ;-)

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 13:44:19 (ZULU) 

On bins, someone I shoot against bought a pair of M19's somewhere, and didn't like them... I took them from him at the last match, and I'm not thrilled. They are biggish, and heavy for what they are, and have 10 mil reticles.

I'm looking at getting a pair of the I.O.R. Valdada 7x40's with the IR viewing thingie... Al-O baby got a pair, and says they're slicker than Owl Poop... and they're not expensive. There is also the Steiner 8x30 Mil, and if you don't need a twilight glass, these are ideal. Very small, with a Mils reticle.

Scott...
Loved your answer to "Which is better, Sheppard or Springfield"...
except it should be...
The Answer: B&L or Leupold.!

... and it's true, there are no bargans in optics. The are some very good optics coming in from the Eastern Block countries now, and these companies were set up by Carl Zeiss Yena (the East German half of Carl Zeiss GMBH.). They are optically very good, but tend to be mechanically somewhat lacking. I recall someone on this site said their Tac scope was optically very good, but the adjustments were "Micky Mouse"!
I do have two Springfields, a first gen .308/56mm and one of the .223/40mm's, both with Springfield's auto ranging reticle. The reticle is a bit cluttered, but the fastest scope to put on a long range target I've ever seen... no pocket calculators, no look-ups, no log books, no bcd dials... you see it, 3 seconds later, it falls down!
And I like the built in bubble level, I have become a true believer.

You can buy the Leupold 25x50 and 12x40 spotting scopes with one mil dots in them, from Premier, but they won't put the dots in your scope.
They do a large batch of scopes (50-100) at a time, and can't afford to do them one at a time.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:01:38 (ZULU) 

Semper fi, Russell

Ruskle74@aol.com
Russell <Ruskle74@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:03:40 (ZULU) 

I just purchased the Death From Afar series and it is wonderful. It is five volumes now (I have to wait for V. II to be reprinted in June). I would HIGHLY recommend any of you Hathcock fans to get their book White Feather, about you-know-who. Mine's autographed by the Authors at the man himself.

Anyway, if you want to get ahold of the Iron Brigade Armory, get in touch with Norm Chandler Jr. @ M40shooter@AOL.com

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:11:26 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 16:17:18 (ZULU) 

I did not say you could not use 10x binos to good effect. They work fine under a ton of situations. But I was not answering a HUNTING question. What I was referring to was the size and weight of your average 10x50 when compared to a 7x40. I have owned a lot of 10x50s over the years, both junk ones and decent ones. For all around use they were my favorites. Bye and large they are all on the heavy side - when compared to the smaller 7x’s. Let me specify that: When carried alone with nothing more than a rifle and a little gear, 10x50s were plenty fine. But when combined with a loaded ruck or in drag bag, the extra weight is tough to justify. Figure a ruck or drag bag might have a 20x spotting scope, a tripod for same, a modified camera tripod for a rifle support, ammo, shooting sticks, data books, binos, food, and other items you just can't find any other space for. A ruck has a lot more than this! The weight can get a little annoying on a stalk. So keeping in mind that when answering the question "what kind of binos" would a sniper carry, I answered thinking in those terms. For a troop going on a long hump, there is little to justify big glass. He already has a spotting scope for checking out details. He also has bright 10x rifle scope. The binos are for scanning and target acquisition. You do not need a big set for this, especially when you take into account all the other crap the guy has to carry. Whether he has a ruck or a drag bag (or both!), when you add it all in there it is nice to be able to cut corners on weight when ever and where ever you can. The performance of a quality set of 7x40s is just outstanding, so why hump the extra weight and size of the 10x50s? You have three means of observing targets (binos, scope, spotter scope) and all weigh a good bit, so why carry the extra ounces? It ain’t an indictment against 10x50s. It is just common sense fitting the tool to the task.

10x50s are more prone to operator induced image flutter than 7x. Think about it. If you observe an object using an UNSUPPORTED hold you will introduce a little jingle into the image. This is amplified as you increase the magnification. At 7 power it is barely noticeable. At 10x it is more noticeable and at 20x the target is wobbling so much you might as well not bother. These affects are amplified over time. The longer you look the worse it seems to get especially as you tire. A sniper might spend hours behind his glass. Not the look, scan, rest, of a hunter. He might have to have these things glued to his face for a nasty length of time. He is human and will tire and suffer eye strain no matter WHAT he is using. It makes sense then to go with what will forestall the inevitable for the longest amount of time. 7x40s are a good balance between magnification, resolution, clarity and weight.

Now, coming back to the original question. Why carry big glass when you already have TWO other methods of viewing that DO require support? At least with the lower power binos you can view objects in just about any position, supported or not, with out suffering any adverse effects from muscle strain or shakes. I never said throw out your 50s. I answered Bolt in the way I did because I took his question to be related sniping use. In short, sure, you can use 50s! But if you got 50 pounds of shit on your back already, you have to look real hard at why. This help?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 19:59:02 (ZULU) 

On your question about loads for 300 WM. For a 190gr MK or VLD bullet, I have tried several powders:

1. VV N160: start at 68 gr and increase in 0.5 gr increments. I would go no higher than 72.0 gr. The most accurate load was 69.0 gr for Sierra 190 gr MK and 70 gr. for Berger 190 VLD. I would seat Sierra 0.010 " off lans, and seat Berger to touch lans.

2. VV N560: above specs except 70.0 gr for both bullet types. You can increase the charge a bit more ( not much ) before "shadetree" pressure signs show up... meaning primer cratering and/or difficult case extraction.

3. IMR 4350 ( or H4350 ): I agree with Pat on that one.

4. IMR 7828: slower burn rate so start at 71.0 gr and increase in 0.5 gr increments. I would go no higher than 74.0 gr. Actually, I used 7828 for tests on Berger 210 gr. VLDs. A load of 73.5 gr. was best in this case. Bullet seated to just touch lans.

Please bear in mind that ALL of above testing was done with moly coated bullets. This is just what I had succes with in my rifle. Start at a relatively low charge (*** Check a reloading manual***) and work up.

Pat:

Haven't tried 4064 in 260 yet. Will tomorrow on some 142s. Did try seating 142s to feed in short action mag. Using 38.0 Varget, got sub-1/2 MOA at 100, 200, and 300 yds.

PeteR:

Varget 43.5 in LC case and 175MK seated to mag. feed. 1" 5 shot at 300yd. approx. 0.40 cal hole at 100yd. Bueno.

Sure hope Varget is not the " barrel chewer" some have mentioned.

Scott:

I take my hat off to you ( my new SC hat, of course) on the job you've done with the hat and shirt. My current quandry is finding a nice large liberal anti-gun rally to wear it to :)
Many thanks for a job well done.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 23:27:05 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:16:13 (ZULU) 

The Bolt
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:54:17 (ZULU) 

mjoyce <mjoyce1313>
hockley, texas, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:58:36 (ZULU) 

Are you certain that your early barrels are cut rifled? As you know, Mike Walker (Remington) helped develop button rifling towards the end of WW II. He also got the Harts started with button rifling in the late '40s. Since the Harts have always used this method to good effect, I assumed that all 40X barrels were button rifled. Would you elaborate on why you think your barrels are cut. Can you point me towards some documentation? Just curious.

Re: stainless steel barrel rusting

I recently pulled a bloop tube from of a 40X ss barrel where it has resided for a year or so. Upon cleaning the deposits off the crown some were very resistant to solvent. So I applied a brass bristle brush with solvent. Even this didn't clean things entirely. Looking through a 10X loupe revealed pitting evenly disbursed across the barrel face. I think this rules out that the catalyst was Shooters Choice or Sweet's. In my opinion, the pitting, rust or corrosion was the result of leaving powder fouling in contact with 416 for a long period of time.

Now if "rust" (loosely defined), is pitting, then my 1977 or so 40X ss barrel rusted. But first let someone with the appropriate education or background define rust as opposed to corrosion. Does rust always have to be red in color?

I still remember the American Rifleman article where coupons of Ruger's ss handgun material and their normal chrome moly (4140?) material were subjected to black powder residue in a moist environment. The cm started to rust (corrode) first. But within a short period of time, perhaps a week or two, the ss material surpassed it in damage to the test coupons.

This is something to think about for those who leave their barrels fouled for extended periods of time. I know, the reasoning is to have that first shot hopefully, be the center of the next group. But we must keep in mind that as fouling ages in the barrel it become hard and this certainly would not provide the same friction as would soft (fresh) fouling. Also, the first shot out of a cold barrel is normally about hundred fps slower than the following ones. Once again, that first shot will exit the barrel at an unusual point in the barrel whip. I always used to think that the first shot would be faster due to the film of lubricant that remains after cleaning, but the Oehler set me straight. That cold barrel absorbs a lot of heat. I am not saying that this is the only cause, but at least one of a few possibilities. People who have experience with molied bullets say they give lower velocities because of lower resistance chamber pressure. Perhaps as my barrel dirties itself the bullet meets more resistance and hence chamber pressure is enhanced. Things are so hard to pin down in rifle shooting. So many variables.

At yearly Wimbledon matches with a .300 Win. Mag. the first shot out of a cold clean barrel is always about 2 ft. low. The next rises a foot or so. After 3 shots I start to seriously adjust for zero. This is a Hart barrel on a Hall Express action and is a dedicated Wimbledon rifle. The scope is never removed so I'm pretty darn sure of my zero. I did not shoot in 1998 due to employment constraints.

I hard copied the long letter written by Boots. It is a treasure trove of info. Many thanks to the person who pointed it out.

That's all for now.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 02:36:31 (ZULU) 

On stainless "Rust"... if rusting is defined as red oxidation, maybe not, but if it is used as a generic term for corrosion, then yes, and I've seen very expensive photolab sinks deeply pitted from Dektol.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:03:51 (ZULU) 

Point is does anybody have even a clue what those torque values sould be for a 110fp in a Choate sniper?

?????????? !!!!!!!
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:14:07 (ZULU) 

btw, thanks for the info Bill
Brad M. <sqirrely01@hotmail.com>
MI, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:24:25 (ZULU) 

Don't all metals "rust" "corrode" or "oxidize"?
My ATS-34 fighter/folder that is carried daily begins to show an unusual change in color on the non subdued area (read:edge of the blade)
Do I fall down prostate on the ground and wail to the gods of war for help,
NAWWW, lightly hone it off with a stone and go on my merry way. Snickerty Snack, Snickerty-Snack goes the dudes blade!

Bloop tubes are notorious for this very thing, and have been since their most recent inception about 8 -10 years ago. Guys why do you think the cleaning fervor is (WAS?) so high in the military?
SH^T, it even happens with them high grade BB guns........ and no powder is used, just air or CO2.

bottom line: MAINTAIN IT!

nOW WHERE CAN i FIT tHIS wAKizASHI ON MY DuTy BeLt?

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY , bY-gAwD, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 12:23:57 (ZULU) 

Chow Baby - you are dog meat now!!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
A couple of minutes to recollect my thought in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:09:00 (ZULU) 

Geez Al, is this after our team beats everyone else? or before.....

Sounds like fun count me in most "Fly Boyish" one,after all what are friends for

Heck, I'll even bring your "crown" Quasimodo ;-)

Love and Kisses from the Country,

peteR
peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
Big-City, By-gawd, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:21:08 (ZULU) 

Sandy
Sandy Cambron <Shiftysand@aol.com>
Florence, KY, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:21:14 (ZULU) 

With all of the side matches, Carlos II may have to run over to Tuesday afternoon...

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:08:04 (ZULU) 

Pablito: Thank you for "volunteering" to be our spotter. We need more people like you of high moral fiber and character, unlike some West Virginians we know.

al
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Hankerin'g to do your moral in here in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:21:52 (ZULU) 

Isn't "High Moral Fiber" some sorta' whole grain health cereal...
I eat greasy bacon cheeseburgers for breakfast... you guys are in trouble!

And I still have that road sign you sent me... why do you think I'm going to W.Va... for the shootin'?
Pablito
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:52:29 (ZULU) 

I make no claims at all about whether 25 inch/lbs is actually BEST for your rifle, or whether different stocks might be different or not. Only that I called Savage about my 10FP, and that's what they told me. Personally, I plan to experiment a little bit, but those are the official numbers. I posted the because they DO seem a bit low in comparison with other numbers I've seen tossed around. maybe Choate has info on their stock torquing for you?

Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 15:19:21 (ZULU) 

Mike T
 

Mike T <MicTac@AOL.com/>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 19:08:59 (ZULU) 

I just said I don't think the imp. give much more than the regular 260. A "slow" and "fast" barrel can make more difference. If you want to speed up go for 6.5/284.

I think VV N140/N540 is too fast in 260rem with 140gr bullets. In 6.5X55 with 140's VV N150 is the startingpoint going all the way to N160/165 and RL22/MRP. N140 builds up pressure too fast. With N160 it is possible to get 2500-2600fps with 140gr bullets with safe pressure in a Krag. The lo pressure (and temperature ? ) also seems to do wonders with barrellife. There used to be a special Krag-powder called NC96. It was impossible to make overloads with this powder. One full case + one 144gr bullet = 2550fps and 6-8000 round barrellife. Accuracy in machinerest was usually 10mm 10shot groups at 100m.

To Tony Y and Scott re. binocs.

I've been using Zeiss 10X40 BGA for years. They are exellent. I have no problem with 10X.

If you want lesser magnification and more compact binocs take a hard look at Zeiss 8X30 BGA. They outperform the 7X42 Zeiss in the field.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 21:08:53 (ZULU) 

JPinTX <pruett@inu.net>
Lufkin, TX, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 21:55:26 (ZULU) 

has anyone had problems with ar 15 lowers. I have built several in the past with essential arms and olympic lowers. I have a bushmaster on order but am growing older by the month waiting for it.

I hear some recievers were more trouble than they were worth. any info appriciated as always,
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 22:17:10 (ZULU) 

mikey
mike m. <panacea@ntplx.net>
enfield, ct, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 23:32:17 (ZULU) 

Two AR triggers really stand out among those I've seen. The Krieger-Milazzo and the recent Jewell. Both are expensive, and hard to get, but they are worthwhile if you can stand the wait.

The K-M (two-stage) does not require a complete shop to install, but does require a little work, especially on the "blocked" Colt's. It offers adjustment for second stage creep and the weight may be adjusted slightly with the trigger spring. This trigger comes in 3 and 4.5 lb models.

The Jewell (two-stage)is a true "drop in", but for the first time installer can be a short term nightmare. The instructions are a bit vague about the installation of the spring that secures the hammer/trigger pins. I guess I should say that the instructions completely ignore the whole affair! Other than this little glitch, the trigger is adjustable in all directions. The trigger portion, being a two piece arrangment, has a strange feel on the first stage, but breaks nicely when properly adjusted. Available weight ranges are from too light to very heavy.

Other two-stage triggers are available but are either not easily installed (or adjusted)or I have no experience with them.

The J-P Enterprises single stage trigger feels very good, but I worry about single stage triggers that must depend upon minimum engagement
to offer minimum creep. The chance for doubling at the wrong moment
are quite high.

The K-M and Jewell triggers sell for a little under $200.00. Custom installations may run to about $250.00. I think the J-P trigger sells for about $125.00 and is easily user installed.

Sorry that I probably left out several good triggers, but these I've seen and used. For critical use, I would personally choose the two stage every time.
 
 

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
WARM & WET SE, IL, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 00:01:33 (ZULU) 

Grey;
You are correct ,but what I should have said was the higher the carbon content the more prone to rust it will be.I suspect that barrel longevity is very much like edge holding ability and is at least partially a function of that carbon content.
 
 

I'm getting "server error"so I will appologize in advance if there are multiple posts.
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 01:31:33 (ZULU) 

Al and Andria O.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Celebrating the Joys of the Easter Season the , Ohio, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 11:07:08 (ZULU) 

I am limited to 100 yard range. I would like to try some longer ranges so i was thinking shrink the bull. Does anyone have the dimensions for 500 and 1000 yard target size to simulate them at 100 yrds or a url where they can be found to print out?

I saw a tv program that showed a computer program that backtracks a bullets path to origin. This could be nasty for snipers in there hide.
How are the snipers combating this?

The Army sniper field manual is at this url http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/23-10/toc.htm
sorry i dont know how to make this a link.

What pricing is being found on the "Death from Afar" books and also the White Feather book? I paid 60 each for vol 1&3 of Death from Afar and saw white feather for $75. Can i get them for less somewhere?
Volumes 1 & 3 of Death from Afar were superb books. Awesome.
I also picked up a book from Plaster called SOG. Does anyone have a sight dedicated to SOG?

Where is the nearest 1000 meter range to nashville tn.
 
 

Jeff Argo <jet100@bellsouth.net>
nashville, tn, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 13:12:31 (ZULU) 

Al and peteR,
What are we going to do with you two!! I think Pablito is going to have his hands full babysitting you two. This shoot should be worth the price of admission just to watch you two(HA) take care and have a good easter.

Jeff A,
Glad to see you still remember us!! We liked you better as a "Drug Pusher" you had more time to tell us stories, hows "Barb" doing by the way?? I tried one load of 4064 and it was so-so not any better or any worse than anything else I've shot. I just haven't found the magic combo yet for the 100 or 200 yard load with the 142s. they really come into there own at 300 on out. The 140s do the best at 100 and 200 in my gun with the 4895. You won't believe what I did with my "Coyote" load in my heavy barrel. I loaded up the same load that I use in the BDL for hunting and shot it in the heavy barrel(95gr VMAX) and the first 4 shots went into one hole and I mean one hole!!! there wasn't any oblong or the hole getting bigger I thought the bullet was coming apart or something so I cranked it down two click and the 5th round went into another neat hole about 2" lower I about S..t!! and I dont have a clue as to what the seating deapth was!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 13:19:49 (ZULU) 

Jeff Argo:
When I was in the Marine Reserve unit in Nashville, we had to go either to Ft. Cambell or to Tullahoma for rifle qualification, but we didn't even fire the normal 500 yard KD course, we used the B-mod course, which is at 200 and 300 yards. Sometimes we'd go all the way to LeJeune, so we could do it right. However, when I was in the Johnson City unit before that, we'd sometimes go to Oak Ridge; they do have a thousand-yard range there; of course, it's essentially a drive to Knoxville from Nashville for you... not a really bad drive, but not short, either (approx 3hrs). It's the Oak Ridge Sportman's Club (Association?); if you don't think that it's too far, I'll dig out a phone number for you. I'll ask around, see if I can't find out about one in that area for you that'd be closer.
 

Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:25:48 (ZULU) 

You are cordially invited to my shop to finish lapping these gosh darn (other verbs could not be used) rings. Will provide the beer. Will give you the first condition which was the worst so far.

The first weapon is a Sendero 270, Dual Dovetails, Leupold 3.5-10-50 (this is a hunting rig, don't go ballistic on the dovetails!)
First, installed the bases with my usual heavy handed method, (wish I had a torque value for base to Rem receiver screws) using the Brownell Scope Alignment Tool. Windage alignment was perfect, elevation alignment was bad, both points of the tool were pointed DOWN about a 64th from the horizontal. Shimming will not work because both points were down. If I shim, the shim would only be at the front of the rear base and rear of the front base, eliminating 100% contact with the receiver. Next I started lapping with the Brownell Lapping Tool. After forever, at least 30 minutes, I still only had 50 % contact area on the on the bottom rings with mostof the metal removal being on the front of the front ring and back of the back ring, as would be expected from the elevation alignment problem. Another 15 minutes and I gave up. Got worried about removing too much and not being able to properly tighten the ring screws. Ended up with about 65% contact and mounted the scope. ANY COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next was a set of Mark 4 super highs on a Colt Flat Top. Checked the alignment and it was out on windage and elevation. No way to adjust alignment so I started lapping. And I lapped and lapped and gave up at about the same point as above. ANY COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF ANYONE OUT THERE CAN GIVE ME THE TORQUE VALUES FOR LEUPOLD BASE AND RING SCREWS I WILL BUY YOU A FIFTH OF YOUR FAVORITE BOURBON AT CARLOS II, IF I CAN'T MAKE IT UP THERE I'LL HAVE IT SENT UP THERE.

Comming to the end of this miserable day I decided to pull the scope off my Model 7 and lap those rings. It has an STD one piece base and rings. S**t!!!!!!!!! No more to be said.

What the heck goes on here. This is just like everything else I try to perfect. There's no telling how many scopes I've installed without these fancy tools and lapping. Never new I could have these problems. Now that I know, it's driving me crazy. Is there a happy medium here?????

Now for some reviews:

The Brownell Scope Alignment Tool and the Lapping Tool work great. The Vertical Reticle Instrument works great too. If you think your scope reticles are vertical with the barrel, WRONG, try the instrument.
The rings on the New Ruger 10/22 Magnum suck. It took two layer of masking tape to tighten the scope. Am getting ready to send them back to Bill Ruger. They definetly do not need 4 screws per ring.

Headed back the bench for more lapping. Forearms feel like PoP EyE the Sailer Man.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:45:34 (ZULU) 

Mr Bullet Pat: I already bought the Pampers for Pablito to put on peteR. He'll probably go down screaming and we may need you to hold him down too, remember, I'm gonna treat him like baby treats a diaper. You hear that peteR!!! Chow Chow Chow!!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Foggy Easter morn, taking care of loose ends in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:50:54 (ZULU) 

Check at your local gun shop or Wal-mart sporting goods and ask the fellas where you can go. I'm sure that there's a place near you to go but it's not going to be listed as a "shooting range."

Now, I see that Rock, who's right around my home town, has jumped in and mentioned Oak Ridge. It just doesn't much better than Oak Ridge.
This was just a rock throw (sorry Les) from where my folks are and I grew up on that range.
Once I took my date there after it closed for the night. I sweet-talked her into going and I had a key. We went out on the...........well, it's still a good place to shoot 1000 yards.

If you're still having problems finding a place to shoot locally, drop me a line and I'll see what I can hook up for you.

Happy Easter all and remember, it ain't about no stinking Easter bunny!
 
 
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Tennessee hill-billy stuck in Yankeeville, in IL., USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 15:30:40 (ZULU) 

Looks like I'm going to have to report you to S.P.E.C. ( Society for the Prevention of Extinction fo Coyotes ). Apparently, YOU are the one responsible for the malodorus steamey piles of coyote splatter that's being reported on the upswing.

Tried two loads imr4064 in 260 with 142s. Not very impressive. However, 43.5gr in 308 with 175 MKs does nicely (thanks Mike).

But, yesterday was good because I got to shoot my rifles, and fondle a newly built .50 cal tactical piece. My friend, George Lainhart, got his newly done up .50 back from K&P. Beautiful. I genuflected(?); dropped to both knees, faced the east; and proceeded to start intensive begging for a chance to please shoot this magnif. weapon. He's gonna let me shoot it..just to shut my a** up if nothing else.

Barb's doing fine these days. She's airing out on the clothesline. covered with pine pollen...she likes that..especially in combo with a nice shot of Nitrous.

Pablito:

Glad for the Varget comment. It's working well for me in 308 as well as 260..

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 16:26:59 (ZULU) 

Jeff A...
Al's right, you don't want to have lunch after the shot, get the puck outta' there. Even without computers, the opposition will throw something mean at you, whether it's mortar, or in LE, packs of very bad dogs.

Al O...
I was a single dad from when my son was 6 months old, so I don't do "pampers" anymore, but I will bring a rolled up newspaper for you bad puppys, if you don't play nice, and share your toys!!!
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 16:54:19 (ZULU) 

Steve <KPRP42@MSN.COM>
Norfolk, VA, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 23:32:12 (ZULU) 

Happy Easter
Shadow <timdel@open.org>
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 23:48:19 (ZULU) 

Thanks,

matt
matt meservey <fj40@enol.com>
Orem, ut, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 05:57:46 (ZULU) 

TJ,
If the bolt is closed and the firing pin is in the forward position a "very" small amount of movement is normal.

What you are seeing is "gap space". Headspace can be within limits, but there can still be too much gap between the barrel and bolt. Most accuracy gunsmiths like to have about .005" inch of clearance between both the bolt nose and barrel, and the lugs and barrel. This will allow a small amount of "matter" (bristle, powder granule, etc.) to be in this area and still have a the bolt close. And also offer a little room for thermal expansion. Just what tactical gunsmiths fit the bolt/barrel interface to I don't know. If someone would measure a couple of stock Remingtons this would be a good safe figure to go by.

If excess gap exists, then too much of the of the case wall will be unsupported. If you really have a measured .062" movement, then that sounds like too much to me. If Bill W. or "Scott" or others will offer their opinions, it will help clear matters up.

One method to check the clearance is to use Plastigage ™ which should be available at automotive shops. It consists of a string-like deformable wax. A small piece is put on the bolt nose and the bolt is closed and then opened. The width of the deformed plastic gauge is now compared to an index on the wrapper. Very accurate and plenty good for our purposes.

Keep us posted on how this plays out.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 10:05:15 (ZULU) 

No offence taken. The fact is, I just have no idea what torque settings might be best for your Choate stock. Nor do I really know whether the type of bedding would change the optimum torque setting, though I suspect it would. If I were you, I'd just take my torque wrench with me to the range and set both to 25 to start, then see what happens when you up them a bit. Just don't go too high. You probably will not need any setting that requires real muscle to loosen with a standard hex wrench. 50 is probably too high. 25-40 is probably the best range.

This weekend I shot the 10FP w/ 35 inch/lbs and managed a 1" group at 200 yards with an untuned load. (I suspect a fluke, but what the hell, my worst group of the day was only about 2.5" at 200 yards, and that was in a high, switching wind and some rain. Judging by the groups at 100 & 200 yards (.75-1.5 @ 100 & 1-2.5 @ 200), I'd say this rifle is capable of .75MOA on a good day with tuned ammo, maybe better with luck.)

Jeff Argo:

Contact Norm Chandler Jr (M40shooter@aol.com). Ask for an Iron Brigade armory price list. The books you refer to range from $50-60 each, depending on whether you are a "book owner" or not. He charged me $50.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls., MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 12:50:17 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the favorable comments buddy!

I probably will need some help to keep from soiling myself at "The Match"

but,

It will be from LMAO watching you try to spot my bullet trace from a modified Deliverance position over a special log at Storm Mountain.
 

SARGE,

How goes the battle with the handloads?
 

TJ,
Check to see if the front trigger guard screw is cranked down too tight, or maybe is sticking up into the receiver a little bit

Chao for now!

peteR
 

Wilde-Thang,
A nice post on triggers with some most excellant points being made.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:01:16 (ZULU) 

Torf,
Thanks for the info on the 6.5-08 improved. I couldn't recall just what it was that you had said. I seem to have the best luck so far with the slightly faster powders in my 260, Varget and IMR4895, the one slower powder that has worked well has been Winchester MRP but it is a "Compressed" load. I have just traded for some 165VV so I will try it out too. It seems as though I run out of case capacity with the slower powders. I also have found that with the 142s and the 140 AMX it seems as though these bullets like some "Jump" to the rifeling where as the 140 seems to do the best right at the lands. I reall haven't tried to down load to the slower speeds yet because I want to stay in the 2700 to 2750 range for the long range work. So far Varget is doing that with the 142s but the accuracy is better from 300 yards on out and is only marginal at 100(.6s and .7s) Where as the 140s with 4895 goes into the .4s all day long at 100 but opens up down range. Any ideas??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:31:56 (ZULU) 

Maybe the bullets are not completely stabilized @ 100 yards? I think current theory with a lot of the "stretch" projectiles is that they don't go to sleep until 250-300 yards.

I think that I've seen it with some .308 VLD types but as I'm limited to 200 yds for the most part, dunno for sure.

Mr Wylde or JR @ H-S Precision, any thoughts on this subject?

chao!
peter <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:57:19 (ZULU) 

If you are making reference to fore and aft movement, you may need some assistance. Not that you have an unsafe rifle, but that you might have peace of mind.

The bolt does need a bit of "living room", but certainly not the 1/16" that you mention. The .005" that Ron N. stated would be a minimum to clear all the garbage that collects in the lock-up area, but many rifles live with a lot more than that.

All this is assuming that the clearance stated was with the bolt in the locked position. Hard to believe, but possible.

Unless you have reasons to do otherwise, I would contact the maker.
If they are anything like me, I'm sure they would want to be the first to know of any problems.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Green-side-up, IL, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 14:08:38 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 14:35:37 (ZULU) 

Slings are coming along and should be caught up next week if I dont sew my hand to the table. Rod you should have a bow full by Mondsay or Tuesday next week. Scott I hope yours will be there by the end of next week. Hugo about the same time as Scott. Now in my spare time I am going to produce some for AR's. One thing about the slings, because evrything is finished when you get it, if you don't fall in the average to large size we will need to know so the front strap does not have a bunch of excess material left over after you adjust it for shooting. If you are shorter than average or that freak accident claimed half your arem let me know and I will make the straps to your length. You will still ge through Rod, Scott or TRGT for the sling I just will make it just right for you. I found this out when Darren showed up the other day. Since he has several Black Belts I wont call him short but his arms are not the usual length, compared to the first generation upright guys like me.

Al, thanks for the info on the binoculars. I have 7x50's but my doctor says not to carry anything over a ton and half in the woods.

Pabalito, very good post on triggers. I keep a diagram around because I can't remember what screw is what. A word of warning for the trigger adjusters. When I went to Remington Armorer School, a waste fo time, I was told the warranty is no good if you touch your trigger. Plus this leaves you open for liability if you have an A.D. Schillan makes an adjustable trigger for about $70.00 that puts the liability on them. Just a thought.

Old Dog, get your Butt to the Match so I can buy you a beer. Heck I might even let you look at my Stryder Knife, since you have to wait six months for one. Best knives ever. I might even do a review on it if you guys are interrested.

Well time to shut up. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 15:32:16 (ZULU) 

I'm not sure why you would want to zero @ 200 yards with tapered bases. Maybe all you mean is that you want the ability to adjust the crosshairs to the same point of impact/point of aim @ 200 yards, while you rifle is actualy zerod out at 600 or something?

Point being: The reason for using tapered bases is so that you will be able to get enough down elevation on the reticule to follow a dropping round at long distance (say 1000 yards). The reason being that many/most scopes won't adjust far enough to give you that kind of adjustment range. You probably know this. You probably also realize that unless you have need to shoot at say, 800+ yards, you don't need to install tapered shims, or whatever.

Being that you are using them, and may be shooting at longer ranges, don't zero your rifle at 200 yards. Zero it at about 500, then just adjust up or down from your 500 yard zero setting, or whatever, for the other ranges. (By zero, I mean the feature of many target scopes where you can zero the rifle at some range, then set up the knobs on the scope so that they actualy read zero on the dials).

You probably know this, but in case you don't, I offer the info.

Interesting note:
Remember the big back and forth on this site a few weeks ago regarding reverse imaging, or whatever? Well exact point-of-aim/poin-of-impact advocates aside, I saw a chart recently from the Vietnam era that indicated that it was A Marine technique to zero the rifle at 500 yards, then when shooting a man (the chest was the recomended target, not the head) aim at the belt area for 100, just below the groin for 200 and 300, the belt again for 400, the chest for 500 and just above the head for 600. It was known by some colorful euphemism like "over the head and below the balls," or something like that. The point is (going back to the previous discussion, not Dan's zeroing question) that the MC advocated holdoff as a method for good marksman, rather than constantly clicking your scope around for exact point of aim. The chart I saw was accompanied by a few others that showed the hold-offs for other situations.

Granted, this does little toward successful target shooting, and in a (mostly police) situation where a clean head shot is required, it may not work for you, but in military sniping where you just need a good clean shot into center of mass, holdoff was recommended, provided the shooter was skilled enough. Interesting.

Semper Fi,
André
 

André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 15:34:11 (ZULU) 

The previous delved-into-in-depth discussion involved a method where you wouldn't even have to know the range at all, provided the ballistics of your round fall within a useful range. That may be more of what you are looking for, unless you will have the time/ability to get a good guestimate of target range inyour upcoming match.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 16:27:05 (ZULU) 

After a little research i concluded that the UARS stock available for $250 from www.autuagaarms.com is the read deal. HOWEVER it is not the one we've all been hearing so much about. After emailing gunsite directly I found out it is an earlier version. available only for the Rem 700 SA. it also has a three round only blind magazine (the current one holds 4). The Gunsite rep. also told me this stock is not covered by any warranty. Beware if it sound too good it probably is
Geoff P Ovens <sgtgeo@hotmail.com>
Lillington, NC, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 17:38:28 (ZULU) 

This is one direct link to FM 23-10,

This is another link to FM 23-10, but I'm not sure if this URL works.

Andre: I also saw the USMC holdoff chart you mention, it was in a August 1968 issue of Guns & Ammo profiling Marine Snipers in Vietnam. Where did you see your charts?

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 18:19:40 (ZULU) 

André
André
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 18:29:01 (ZULU) 

Seriously, although I know this is not Knife Country, the knife Mike M mentioned is made by Duane Dwyer in Oceanside CA. Relevant here because he graduated from the USMC Scout/Sniper School, and is an avid high power guy. If you want an outstanding knife, his number is 760-967-6445.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 19:14:32 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 21:26:42 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 22:33:17 (ZULU) 

But, and this is a BIG BUT, the MK4-M3 has roughly 30-35 moa of optically built in taper... it is the ONLY Leupold scope made this way!... When set up on a rifle with standard bases, you will have about 10-15ish moa of down, and 60-65ish moa of up... after you zero the rifle at the minimum range, without tapered bases!!
The scope was designed with this large optical offset so that it could be used to 1000 yds "out of the box" without needing special bases, and be able to do it in less than one turn of the dial!
If you add tapered bases, you won't able to shoot at close ranges unless there is enough "added tooling error" in the receiver, bases, and rings... all adding in your favor, and that's very unlikely.
This is not a target scope, but a tactical scope designed for one purpose... and doesn't follow "common sense".
To be able to shoot from 50 to 1000+ yds/mtrs the VX-III M3-LR must use tapered bases, The VX-III M1-LR will benifit from tapered bases, and the MK4-M3 must use standard bases.
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 22:36:56 (ZULU) 

Scott:

Just received the shirts and hats today, excellent my friend. Hey, thanks a million, and I'll see if I can't get ya a few more orders.

Hey, just got back from the flatlands, and took a few peeks thru the Bushnell 20x50 x 50mm spotting scope that Santa got for the old man. Was keepin' an eye on some Sandhill Cranes that stopped by one of the old dams. I think for the price it is a damned fine piece of glass. It will work great for the 300yd range anyway.

Oh, I see I have a request for info from the PeteR dude:

"Coning" or gyroscopic precession( for all youse rocket scientists) , is usually more prevalent with the long, slender bullets (VLD's). This is because the longer bullets have a longer distance between center of mass(c of gravity) and center of pressure. This 'coning' usually occurs when the bullet escapes the muzzle, by imperfections in the bullet caused by the rifling. Usually, with regular bullets, the coning motion damps out (goes to sleep) within 100 yds or so. But this distance would be relative to the shape of the bullet, so YES, I would say you would have to increase the yardage on the longer bullets to get desired stabilization.

I've got more on this stuff, but e-mail would be better than to bore the crowd with such voodoo. I have never seen a bullet cone or nod or the distance at which it goes to sleep. I just read and go from there. Maybe someone such as the Gooch could lend some info as maybe he has tracked a bullet's flight path and has seen the differences between the different bullet styles.

Pat:

What's the length of your 260 bbl?? You know I want to pick up an H-S take down this year, and the first bbl will be the 260. You know, I wonder if you could have a few barrels made in the same caliber, but different twists for the bullet suited for the deed? Then I could make a 9.5" or 10" twist for the 120's and another bbl for the 140-142's in a faster twist. Interesting.

Catch ya later
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 23:31:37 (ZULU) 

Personally, I was unaware that the MK4-M3 had a built in optical taper (I use a vari-x II 6-18 Target myself). Kind of a cool feature.

My point was simply that unless one has a need to shoot @ 800+ yards, why bother with any tapers? If one IS shooting at long range, it makes the most sense (to me anyway) to have the scope settings "zerod" at a longer range, say 400 yards (for simplicity's sake, each 1/4 MOA click would be 1 inch at zero for that distance, and easy to remember). To me, it makes the most sense to put the scope's "zero" (again assuming that your scope allows you to reset the actual dials to zero at any point), at some midpoint, or even farpoint, of your average shooting distance, rather than 100 or 200 yards. If I were shooting from 100-800 yards, I would zero the rifle at about 500, reset the scope settings for zero at that zero, then just go to different ranges from there, either through holdoff, or adjusting the scope from the zero (which is 500 yards). The advantage to this is that your scope's zero reference point is at or near your most common shooting distance. It seems to me that it would be much simpler to add, say, five clicks up to a 500 yard zero, than 25 clicks to a 100 yard zero. Plus your zero is at a more conveniant place. If you lose count moving from 500 to 800 yards, it's much quicker to reset to a 500 yard zero, that start over from the settings of a 100 yard zero.

It's all just personal preference, but that's what makes sense to me.

I guess the taper thing and the zeroing thing are really two different subjects.

Semper Fi,
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls., MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 23:37:39 (ZULU) 

Many thanks for the fast key to the "FM" Guys if ya aint got it down load it or save as a "favorite" MOST EXCELLANT!
 

JR,

Knew that you could help us out with this facet of shooting and in easy to read prose too! Again MOST EXCELLANT!
 

Knives,
I just was just drawing a comparison (no pun intended), and anyone that says a good knife or two isn't a part of a field kit had better read the archieves......

Last question for the night (well maybe)
What is the "average" engagement distance for a military sniper 1980-1999?
MOUT?
or otherwise (excluding the desert)?

Chao!
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:15:57 (ZULU)