April 1999

Got a remake on a Colt 7.62x39 flat top converted to 5.56. She is now wearing a Bushmaster 26" heavy 1x9. Put an RPA 1/4 min rear sight (mounts right on top or any weaver mount)and an adjustable front base with a Tompkins front sight and I have me a shooter. She will shoot the Hornady 75gr A-max w/24.5 Varget better'n me at 600. Haven't tried her at 1000 yet but thats coming. What do you think, a keeper?

Shadow
Tim <timdel@open.org>
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 03:39:25 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the reply. The thing that was confusing about the article was that the author seem to imply that recoil vs. terminal velocity was the key. The guys at SC did not seem to agree at all. I asked the questions because I did not have the experience to know if his examples were valid or not. The way the article was written he seem to be saying that the .257 was hitting much harder, hence the confusion.

Eyeman
EyeMan <stepmont@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 05:40:50 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 12:43:29 (ZULU) 

I called Savage with the question of what the torque should be of the two pillar bedded stock screws: 25 ft/lbs (or however you write it). I set mine to this, based on this answer, and I felt that it was on the low side of tight. They were tightened, but not
won't-vibrate-open tight, so I asked if there would be any ramifications of tightening the screws any further. I was told that the reason the screws should not be tighter is that you run the risk of "causing the bolt to close hard" (I assume from the protruding through the action and into the bolt). There didn't seem to be any other reason why the screws couldn't be tightened further.

Truth be told, I had mine up to about 50 with no ill effects, so use your best judgement, about 35 might be perfect, but be aware of the official numbers.

Also I couldn't get any instructions egarding stripping the bolt down for cleaning. They say let a gunsmith do it. Whatever.

Anyway this might be of some interest to any Savage tactical owners.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 15:11:02 (ZULU) 

For those of you who do not log into the Roster via the main page, you might have missed Sniper Country’s new section, The Sniper Country PX.

Yup. That is right. I have decided to retail some of the gear we are all interested in. I hope I can keep the prices down so that we all can enjoy this stuff at a reasonable fee. The prices might change based on what happens with the sales and shipping end. With luck, I will be able to under sell most of the normal outlets. Some prices might go down. Only time will tell.

I am excited to announce that I will be carrying Mike Miller’s Tactical slings as well as the other products listed. Also I am working on the IOR 7x40 binos I got to play with last weekend. Hold your optics cash guys. These things blow away the glass coming out of the orient. Best of all they are very affordable. I did not get to test them but they were clear to the edges and very bright. Mil reticle. Armored. The quality is outstanding. If you can get them elsewhere, DO SO NOW! But if you can wait a short bit, we’ll have them too. These things rank right up there with the big names. I think Zeiss is part of the production team. They cost less than the Tasco Offshore’s I wrote about! My goal is to bring you good deals like this when I find them.

This will be the last I have to say on the Roster about the PX. The MAIN site’s goal remains the same as always and I do NOT want the Roster to turn into a sales department! If you have specific questions please direct them to me at xring@voicenet.com. Please avoid using the Roster for this as I do not want it to become a sales platform. Check the PX occasionally as you might miss something of interest. With luck, it will always be growing.

As the PX grows I hope to be able to offer you items at the best price around. If this does not work out, well, at least we tried. I hope you all can benefit from the growth of Sniper Country. Please think of the PX as a separate entity, but made possible by SC. The PX is there for your benefit. The "magazine" portion of the site will not change. The reviews will remain true and honest and the direction of the site will continue as is. Thanks for your time and please forgive the business talk. Now back to the good stuff.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 16:37:54 (ZULU) 

Thanks for any info...
Brian
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 17:06:59 (ZULU) 

sorry for that glitch, but I have no idea how that happened, or how to prevent it in future. Those of you who were missing a week's information, it was because, at some stage, somebody succeeded in including the first part of the Roster in their post. Thus it appeared as if some was missing, but I assure you it was not.

Take care, and enjoy your Easter. Remember what it is all about.

See you all next week.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 18:48:18 (ZULU) 

I flubbed it on "down under"

how about "Significantly below the Mason-Dixon line"

"Lower than Cro-Magnum......"

"Little lower than Homo-erectus but right around Homo-Afrikanus"

off to play with "crayons, cards, and courtesy" for the night

chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 19:03:26 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:13:20 (ZULU) 

Andre,
Don't you mean 25 "INCH" pounds and not "FOOT" pounds for torque on the action screws for the Savage?? I don't have any Savages but I am sure that they would not be torqued in "FOOT" pounds. I would hate to see someone twist off their action screws this is a easy mistake to make when talking torque because we usually think of it as "FOOT" pounds.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:16:01 (ZULU) 

Don't know how I missed that.

Savage pillar bedded stock screws should be tightened to 25 inch/lbs NOT ft/lbs. Obvious, but I misprinted it anyway.

Thanks for catching me Pat before I caused someone to get really pissed!

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 20:54:16 (ZULU) 

M. Hite <michael_hite@maxtor.com>
longmont, co, USA - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 21:47:38 (ZULU) 

Did you hear they found a new use for sheep in Montana?
They get wool from 'em.

Any way, please remember it's a joke. I love Montana, been there several times and the bore cleaner works fine. If you have an unreasonable fear of ammonia, stay away.
Butch, E-mail me and I'll tell you wear top send the T-shirt.
Oh, yeah, do not buy online or e-mail from anyone but Russ Haydon's shooter's supply. Great people

God bless those guys being held in Serbia.
 

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 00:22:57 (ZULU) 

What are your real requirements in a scope? If varminting is you true goal, look no further than the B&L Elite 4000 line. The 6-24x scope is excellent. While I do not like 1/8 moa clicks for various reasons not worth devling into here, this scope is just great out to about 450 to 500 yards with the .308 win. After that forget it as it does not have enough elevation unless you go to tapered bases.

Try to stick with 1/4 moa clicks for target and varmint with this caliber. These will have more internal adjustment. You'll need it. Also look at the Leupold line. They have a lot of choices. So many I lose track. I think they have a 6-20x that has a lot of internal adjustment. Visit their site. Or visit Premier Reticles. Check our Links section for the addresses.

One thing -- on your goal of shooting deer at 500 yards, please practice A LOT at this range before you try such a shot. I know a lot of guys read this site and assume one can take really long shots on game animals and win, but it does not take much to end up wounding your game. They deserve better treatment. It is easy to confuse sniping with hunting. Very similar skill set. But in sniping if a troop wounds a bad guy, so it goes. Kills are better but woundings tie up enemy resources too. But in hunting we all owe it to the game and fellow hunters to assure a KILL. Wounded animals just give those bone head anti-hunting "I buy my meat in stores" types something to cry about and take to congress. If you believe in hunting and hunting rights, ONE shot ONE kill is paramount. Sorry for the soap box.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 00:51:46 (ZULU) 

JEFF <jkCartwright@Blomand.net>
McMinnville, TN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 02:35:40 (ZULU)

As a practical matter, would a 12-40 power spotting scope have a great advantage over a fixed 25 power such as the Leupolds? This scope will have to double for bench and field.

In a field condition, would a spotter have a spotting scope with a mildot or would the shooter be responsible for milling the target?

Trying to find info on binocular powers. For hunting and field use, what is the ideal power realitive to carry weight and size? The Steiners are going to be out of my price range. Would rather apply a little more money to the spotting scope.

In a field condition, would a binocular with rangefinding or a mildot be of practical use? It would seem redundant and timeconsumiing to take the time to range find with the binos and then with the rifle scope.

I spoke with a nationally ranked long range shooter recently and he indicated that he does not lap his scope rings. If the rings are properly alligned using an anlignment tool, is lapping a benificial process? Does removing the finish on the inside of the rings lead to oxidation? How do you know when you have completed the lapping process?
 
 
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 02:37:21 (ZULU) 

There isn't too much advantage to a 40 over a 25, though I'm sure I'll get incoming over that comment. The Leupold 25x is very small, and can be had with an OD case with ALICE clips, and Mil-dots with 1 mil spacing... a very nice spotters rig.
The 12-40 Leupold can also be had with 1 mil dots... but is larger (and more expensive).

>In a field condition, would a spotter have a spotting scope
>with a mildot or would the shooter be responsible for
>milling the target?

It would be ideal if the spotter can read mils... first, the spotter will be doing the ranging, the math, and windage... and it would be good for two opinions on the target size in mils. Second, if the first shot is off (heaven forbid) the spotter can quickly give a correction in mils, and the shooter can hold the correction, and fire.

I would vote for cheap bins, and a good scope.
Bins usually have their graduations in 5 or 10 mils, and that (for me) isn't fine enough.

"How do you know when you have completed the lapping process?"

When all the bluing is gone!
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:05:39 (ZULU) 

Little anectdote for the 'rusty bore' crowd. I was diggin' around the chamber lathe's barrel rack and found a 7BR XP100 barrel there. It was chambered, threaded, teflon coated, the whole 9 yds. This is unusual to be lying around the barrel racks so I ask the chambering god, "Hey, why is this barrel here?" He says we built a 7BR for this guy, shot like a champ, sent it off to him. A couple weeks later the gun comes back with a note attached saying that," ...it shot great, but there seems to be rust in the bore...", so he wanted a new barrel. I had never laughed so hard in my life, we use stainless steel barrels.

later
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:14:01 (ZULU) 

All ideas welcome.
Thanks
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:17:49 (ZULU) 

no comprende on the barrel defect you speak of. Is this scratch inside the bore? off the crown? Is this a used gun? If this is a new gun and your rifling is already bunged up, I'd be giving Remington a call instead of posting on this site. Accuracy may or may not be affected, but a defect such as that would just love to 'foul' up your day.

adios

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:24:42 (ZULU) 

I have a sheperd scope on my 7 mag. so far i have shot it out to 700 yrds. at ranges to there it is right on the money for drop. The optics
are good too. it is brighter with its 40mm lens than my tasco world class 50mm was. (i realise thats not saying much).

The one shot zero crap they advertise doesnt work but what the hell.
The ranging works great for me with 150 gr bt bullets. If you get one be sure to buy the reticle that matches the weight and speed bullets you are going to shoot.

I have no experince with the springfield scope but the reticle looked less user friendly to me. they both have web sites.
hope this helps.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:25:33 (ZULU) 

I don't know a whole hell of a lot about hammer forged barrels, but we used to make a few button barrels, no more, but we used to copper plate the bore after pulling the button through. Now this wouldn't be the 'rust' this guy is seeing, is it guys??
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
snowed in, rapid city, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:29:49 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:45:36 (ZULU) 

Slings are like this. I am spending all my extra time making them. Rod Ryan had placed the first and a huge order so his will be filled first. Scott and TRGT placed orders at same time so they will get shipped after Rod's. All places have agreed to charge the same price $50.00 plus shipping Retail. If you guys want the slings please call Rod, Scott or TRGT, they have all taken a chance on the product and I wont be doing sales to compete with my friends. Now the guys I promised slings to before all this transpired, they will be shipped next week if I have to stay up all night to do them. I am getting pretty good with this souped up sewing machine, I just hope I dont sew my hand to the table (again)

The UnDude Mike

Pete I am going to load some Varget this week no matter what my friend.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 03:56:55 (ZULU) 

Another reason I say "Why Cro-Moly??" It's a pain in the ass to machine AND it rusts!!! What rifling process does Remington use on their SS barrels? I just received one the other day, was wondering if the Hammer Forge process was used on them. Wouldn't take long to find out, have a bore scope handy.
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:00:21 (ZULU) 

Thank you.
Joey
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:30:42 (ZULU) 

Hope that helps.

Rock
Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
TN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:37:30 (ZULU) 

I'd save up the extra pennies and just go with the Springfield. By the time you buy the parts and have the work done to the Poly-Tech, you will have almost the same amount invested. You will never be sorry buying quality. Heck, think of the resale potential, that in itself is worth it, even if you dont think you will ever sell the rifle.

Im not totally knocking the Chinese M14's...they do work with a "makeover" (like Smith Enterprises provides), but in this case, get the Springfield.

Just my .02 (Confederate) cents.
Grenadier2 <grenadier2@earthlink.net>
FireBase Bandit, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 04:47:06 (ZULU) 

Question:Is it true that Varget powder wears a bore faster?
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 05:33:34 (ZULU) 

Alot of typing about the military M49 spotting scope. Are any military spotting scopes or binos available to the public and where can you get them?

As usual, thanks
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:34:57 (ZULU) 

The Answer: Leupold or B&L.

If you just have to have one of the others the Sprinfield would probably make more sense. Since you are using it on a .223, get the one with the 40mm objective.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:38:33 (ZULU) 

Bolt: On Binos. 7x40 are about the largest you'd want to carry. I carry a set of 7x50s but only because they happen to be pretty light as 50s go. When you start adding up all of the other useful crap you have to hump, it just does not make sense to carry really big glass. 10x50s are definitely out. Heavy. More eye strain. A quality set of 7x40s will be VERY bright. Brighter than junk 10x50s. Way brighter.

Another thing to think about, the larger the glass, the less steady the image. You can glass an objective or target area for quite some time with a 7x40. When you move up to bigger glasses you will see more jiggle and you will usually suffer more eye strain over the same time period. It is better to use smaller binos to scan an area and then switch to the spotting scope to ID things that catch your eye. Typical hunters trick.

You will not find many spotting scopes with mil reticles. In some cases they can be installed by Premier. The binos should always have mils in them for this reason.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 12:57:54 (ZULU) 

Seriously though, if you are worried about rust, you can easily re-blue the metal with a cold blue process. I wouldn't bother though. All I would do is mask off the rings and hit the bare area with some red-oxide Rustoleum primer. If you wanted, you can then paint the inside of the ring with a coat of matt black paint.

I know a lot of people say you do not need to lap rings. Most are hunters and casual shooters. But some are top flight masters. I look at it this way, it won’t hurt and it certainly will help. I did not do this practice for years. But if you are very attentive when you install the rings, you will notice that they almost NEVER line up exactly. When you drop a scope in, this is easy to miss, but if you leave the ring tops off and lay a steel rod in the rear ring and slide it forward -- while assuring it stays in contact with the inside of the ring -- you will usually note that when the rod gets to the forward ring it does not slide right in. It usually hits the bottom lip or edge of the second ring. This is showing you a misalignment. It’ll stress your scope or action. Most people think of lapping as a way to solve the side to side twist that turret type bases can allow, but you also have to worry about VERTICAL misalignment. One ring can be higher than another, especially with two piece bases. But even a good set of one piece bases can allow this because the ACTION itself might not be perfect. If there is twist introduced into the set up because the mounting screw holes are drilled a little off center in the receiver, the base will have twist in it – resulting in ring misalignment.

If you use a rod to mount the rings in alignment with out actually lapping them in, what are you doing? Stressing the action? The rings are forced into alignment and the steel rod is stronger than the open action. When you remove the rod form the rings, the action will unload. Now when you install the scope and tighten the ring caps, you are stressing the scope. The is no free lunch. If you do not lap the rings, something else will have to give if misalignment is present.

The job takes about 15 minutes to a half hour. Simple Elbow grease. No brains required. The result removes one more variable from your system and as well know, variables are what kills accuracy. Dive right in and do not worry about removing the finish. That can easily be covered up! Good luck.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 13:21:38 (ZULU) 

I'm sure this info will be very useful to me and a few other Savage owners. You forgot the cardinal rule of dissassembling things however: The number of loose parts left on the workbench after the job must equal EXACTLY the number of loose parts that were there before you started ripping things apart. That's the theory anyway ;-)

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 13:44:19 (ZULU) 

On bins, someone I shoot against bought a pair of M19's somewhere, and didn't like them... I took them from him at the last match, and I'm not thrilled. They are biggish, and heavy for what they are, and have 10 mil reticles.

I'm looking at getting a pair of the I.O.R. Valdada 7x40's with the IR viewing thingie... Al-O baby got a pair, and says they're slicker than Owl Poop... and they're not expensive. There is also the Steiner 8x30 Mil, and if you don't need a twilight glass, these are ideal. Very small, with a Mils reticle.

Scott...
Loved your answer to "Which is better, Sheppard or Springfield"...
except it should be...
The Answer: B&L or Leupold.!

... and it's true, there are no bargans in optics. The are some very good optics coming in from the Eastern Block countries now, and these companies were set up by Carl Zeiss Yena (the East German half of Carl Zeiss GMBH.). They are optically very good, but tend to be mechanically somewhat lacking. I recall someone on this site said their Tac scope was optically very good, but the adjustments were "Micky Mouse"!
I do have two Springfields, a first gen .308/56mm and one of the .223/40mm's, both with Springfield's auto ranging reticle. The reticle is a bit cluttered, but the fastest scope to put on a long range target I've ever seen... no pocket calculators, no look-ups, no log books, no bcd dials... you see it, 3 seconds later, it falls down!
And I like the built in bubble level, I have become a true believer.

You can buy the Leupold 25x50 and 12x40 spotting scopes with one mil dots in them, from Premier, but they won't put the dots in your scope.
They do a large batch of scopes (50-100) at a time, and can't afford to do them one at a time.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:01:38 (ZULU) 

Semper fi, Russell

Ruskle74@aol.com
Russell <Ruskle74@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:03:40 (ZULU) 

I just purchased the Death From Afar series and it is wonderful. It is five volumes now (I have to wait for V. II to be reprinted in June). I would HIGHLY recommend any of you Hathcock fans to get their book White Feather, about you-know-who. Mine's autographed by the Authors at the man himself.

Anyway, if you want to get ahold of the Iron Brigade Armory, get in touch with Norm Chandler Jr. @ M40shooter@AOL.com

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:11:26 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 16:17:18 (ZULU) 

I did not say you could not use 10x binos to good effect. They work fine under a ton of situations. But I was not answering a HUNTING question. What I was referring to was the size and weight of your average 10x50 when compared to a 7x40. I have owned a lot of 10x50s over the years, both junk ones and decent ones. For all around use they were my favorites. Bye and large they are all on the heavy side - when compared to the smaller 7x’s. Let me specify that: When carried alone with nothing more than a rifle and a little gear, 10x50s were plenty fine. But when combined with a loaded ruck or in drag bag, the extra weight is tough to justify. Figure a ruck or drag bag might have a 20x spotting scope, a tripod for same, a modified camera tripod for a rifle support, ammo, shooting sticks, data books, binos, food, and other items you just can't find any other space for. A ruck has a lot more than this! The weight can get a little annoying on a stalk. So keeping in mind that when answering the question "what kind of binos" would a sniper carry, I answered thinking in those terms. For a troop going on a long hump, there is little to justify big glass. He already has a spotting scope for checking out details. He also has bright 10x rifle scope. The binos are for scanning and target acquisition. You do not need a big set for this, especially when you take into account all the other crap the guy has to carry. Whether he has a ruck or a drag bag (or both!), when you add it all in there it is nice to be able to cut corners on weight when ever and where ever you can. The performance of a quality set of 7x40s is just outstanding, so why hump the extra weight and size of the 10x50s? You have three means of observing targets (binos, scope, spotter scope) and all weigh a good bit, so why carry the extra ounces? It ain’t an indictment against 10x50s. It is just common sense fitting the tool to the task.

10x50s are more prone to operator induced image flutter than 7x. Think about it. If you observe an object using an UNSUPPORTED hold you will introduce a little jingle into the image. This is amplified as you increase the magnification. At 7 power it is barely noticeable. At 10x it is more noticeable and at 20x the target is wobbling so much you might as well not bother. These affects are amplified over time. The longer you look the worse it seems to get especially as you tire. A sniper might spend hours behind his glass. Not the look, scan, rest, of a hunter. He might have to have these things glued to his face for a nasty length of time. He is human and will tire and suffer eye strain no matter WHAT he is using. It makes sense then to go with what will forestall the inevitable for the longest amount of time. 7x40s are a good balance between magnification, resolution, clarity and weight.

Now, coming back to the original question. Why carry big glass when you already have TWO other methods of viewing that DO require support? At least with the lower power binos you can view objects in just about any position, supported or not, with out suffering any adverse effects from muscle strain or shakes. I never said throw out your 50s. I answered Bolt in the way I did because I took his question to be related sniping use. In short, sure, you can use 50s! But if you got 50 pounds of shit on your back already, you have to look real hard at why. This help?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 19:59:02 (ZULU) 

On your question about loads for 300 WM. For a 190gr MK or VLD bullet, I have tried several powders:

1. VV N160: start at 68 gr and increase in 0.5 gr increments. I would go no higher than 72.0 gr. The most accurate load was 69.0 gr for Sierra 190 gr MK and 70 gr. for Berger 190 VLD. I would seat Sierra 0.010 " off lans, and seat Berger to touch lans.

2. VV N560: above specs except 70.0 gr for both bullet types. You can increase the charge a bit more ( not much ) before "shadetree" pressure signs show up... meaning primer cratering and/or difficult case extraction.

3. IMR 4350 ( or H4350 ): I agree with Pat on that one.

4. IMR 7828: slower burn rate so start at 71.0 gr and increase in 0.5 gr increments. I would go no higher than 74.0 gr. Actually, I used 7828 for tests on Berger 210 gr. VLDs. A load of 73.5 gr. was best in this case. Bullet seated to just touch lans.

Please bear in mind that ALL of above testing was done with moly coated bullets. This is just what I had succes with in my rifle. Start at a relatively low charge (*** Check a reloading manual***) and work up.

Pat:

Haven't tried 4064 in 260 yet. Will tomorrow on some 142s. Did try seating 142s to feed in short action mag. Using 38.0 Varget, got sub-1/2 MOA at 100, 200, and 300 yds.

PeteR:

Varget 43.5 in LC case and 175MK seated to mag. feed. 1" 5 shot at 300yd. approx. 0.40 cal hole at 100yd. Bueno.

Sure hope Varget is not the " barrel chewer" some have mentioned.

Scott:

I take my hat off to you ( my new SC hat, of course) on the job you've done with the hat and shirt. My current quandry is finding a nice large liberal anti-gun rally to wear it to :)
Many thanks for a job well done.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 23:27:05 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:16:13 (ZULU) 

The Bolt
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:54:17 (ZULU) 

mjoyce <mjoyce1313>
hockley, texas, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 00:58:36 (ZULU) 

Are you certain that your early barrels are cut rifled? As you know, Mike Walker (Remington) helped develop button rifling towards the end of WW II. He also got the Harts started with button rifling in the late '40s. Since the Harts have always used this method to good effect, I assumed that all 40X barrels were button rifled. Would you elaborate on why you think your barrels are cut. Can you point me towards some documentation? Just curious.

Re: stainless steel barrel rusting

I recently pulled a bloop tube from of a 40X ss barrel where it has resided for a year or so. Upon cleaning the deposits off the crown some were very resistant to solvent. So I applied a brass bristle brush with solvent. Even this didn't clean things entirely. Looking through a 10X loupe revealed pitting evenly disbursed across the barrel face. I think this rules out that the catalyst was Shooters Choice or Sweet's. In my opinion, the pitting, rust or corrosion was the result of leaving powder fouling in contact with 416 for a long period of time.

Now if "rust" (loosely defined), is pitting, then my 1977 or so 40X ss barrel rusted. But first let someone with the appropriate education or background define rust as opposed to corrosion. Does rust always have to be red in color?

I still remember the American Rifleman article where coupons of Ruger's ss handgun material and their normal chrome moly (4140?) material were subjected to black powder residue in a moist environment. The cm started to rust (corrode) first. But within a short period of time, perhaps a week or two, the ss material surpassed it in damage to the test coupons.

This is something to think about for those who leave their barrels fouled for extended periods of time. I know, the reasoning is to have that first shot hopefully, be the center of the next group. But we must keep in mind that as fouling ages in the barrel it become hard and this certainly would not provide the same friction as would soft (fresh) fouling. Also, the first shot out of a cold barrel is normally about hundred fps slower than the following ones. Once again, that first shot will exit the barrel at an unusual point in the barrel whip. I always used to think that the first shot would be faster due to the film of lubricant that remains after cleaning, but the Oehler set me straight. That cold barrel absorbs a lot of heat. I am not saying that this is the only cause, but at least one of a few possibilities. People who have experience with molied bullets say they give lower velocities because of lower resistance chamber pressure. Perhaps as my barrel dirties itself the bullet meets more resistance and hence chamber pressure is enhanced. Things are so hard to pin down in rifle shooting. So many variables.

At yearly Wimbledon matches with a .300 Win. Mag. the first shot out of a cold clean barrel is always about 2 ft. low. The next rises a foot or so. After 3 shots I start to seriously adjust for zero. This is a Hart barrel on a Hall Express action and is a dedicated Wimbledon rifle. The scope is never removed so I'm pretty darn sure of my zero. I did not shoot in 1998 due to employment constraints.

I hard copied the long letter written by Boots. It is a treasure trove of info. Many thanks to the person who pointed it out.

That's all for now.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 02:36:31 (ZULU) 

On stainless "Rust"... if rusting is defined as red oxidation, maybe not, but if it is used as a generic term for corrosion, then yes, and I've seen very expensive photolab sinks deeply pitted from Dektol.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:03:51 (ZULU) 

Point is does anybody have even a clue what those torque values sould be for a 110fp in a Choate sniper?

?????????? !!!!!!!
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:14:07 (ZULU) 

btw, thanks for the info Bill
Brad M. <sqirrely01@hotmail.com>
MI, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 03:24:25 (ZULU) 

Don't all metals "rust" "corrode" or "oxidize"?
My ATS-34 fighter/folder that is carried daily begins to show an unusual change in color on the non subdued area (read:edge of the blade)
Do I fall down prostate on the ground and wail to the gods of war for help,
NAWWW, lightly hone it off with a stone and go on my merry way. Snickerty Snack, Snickerty-Snack goes the dudes blade!

Bloop tubes are notorious for this very thing, and have been since their most recent inception about 8 -10 years ago. Guys why do you think the cleaning fervor is (WAS?) so high in the military?
SH^T, it even happens with them high grade BB guns........ and no powder is used, just air or CO2.

bottom line: MAINTAIN IT!

nOW WHERE CAN i FIT tHIS wAKizASHI ON MY DuTy BeLt?

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY , bY-gAwD, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 12:23:57 (ZULU) 

Chow Baby - you are dog meat now!!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
A couple of minutes to recollect my thought in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:09:00 (ZULU) 

Geez Al, is this after our team beats everyone else? or before.....

Sounds like fun count me in most "Fly Boyish" one,after all what are friends for

Heck, I'll even bring your "crown" Quasimodo ;-)

Love and Kisses from the Country,

peteR
peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
Big-City, By-gawd, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:21:08 (ZULU) 

Sandy
Sandy Cambron <Shiftysand@aol.com>
Florence, KY, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 13:21:14 (ZULU) 

With all of the side matches, Carlos II may have to run over to Tuesday afternoon...

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:08:04 (ZULU) 

Pablito: Thank you for "volunteering" to be our spotter. We need more people like you of high moral fiber and character, unlike some West Virginians we know.

al
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Hankerin'g to do your moral in here in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:21:52 (ZULU) 

Isn't "High Moral Fiber" some sorta' whole grain health cereal...
I eat greasy bacon cheeseburgers for breakfast... you guys are in trouble!

And I still have that road sign you sent me... why do you think I'm going to W.Va... for the shootin'?
Pablito
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 14:52:29 (ZULU) 

I make no claims at all about whether 25 inch/lbs is actually BEST for your rifle, or whether different stocks might be different or not. Only that I called Savage about my 10FP, and that's what they told me. Personally, I plan to experiment a little bit, but those are the official numbers. I posted the because they DO seem a bit low in comparison with other numbers I've seen tossed around. maybe Choate has info on their stock torquing for you?

Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 15:19:21 (ZULU) 

Mike T
 

Mike T <MicTac@AOL.com/>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 19:08:59 (ZULU) 

I just said I don't think the imp. give much more than the regular 260. A "slow" and "fast" barrel can make more difference. If you want to speed up go for 6.5/284.

I think VV N140/N540 is too fast in 260rem with 140gr bullets. In 6.5X55 with 140's VV N150 is the startingpoint going all the way to N160/165 and RL22/MRP. N140 builds up pressure too fast. With N160 it is possible to get 2500-2600fps with 140gr bullets with safe pressure in a Krag. The lo pressure (and temperature ? ) also seems to do wonders with barrellife. There used to be a special Krag-powder called NC96. It was impossible to make overloads with this powder. One full case + one 144gr bullet = 2550fps and 6-8000 round barrellife. Accuracy in machinerest was usually 10mm 10shot groups at 100m.

To Tony Y and Scott re. binocs.

I've been using Zeiss 10X40 BGA for years. They are exellent. I have no problem with 10X.

If you want lesser magnification and more compact binocs take a hard look at Zeiss 8X30 BGA. They outperform the 7X42 Zeiss in the field.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 21:08:53 (ZULU) 

JPinTX <pruett@inu.net>
Lufkin, TX, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 21:55:26 (ZULU) 

has anyone had problems with ar 15 lowers. I have built several in the past with essential arms and olympic lowers. I have a bushmaster on order but am growing older by the month waiting for it.

I hear some recievers were more trouble than they were worth. any info appriciated as always,
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 22:17:10 (ZULU) 

mikey
mike m. <panacea@ntplx.net>
enfield, ct, USA - Saturday, April 03, 1999 at 23:32:17 (ZULU) 

Two AR triggers really stand out among those I've seen. The Krieger-Milazzo and the recent Jewell. Both are expensive, and hard to get, but they are worthwhile if you can stand the wait.

The K-M (two-stage) does not require a complete shop to install, but does require a little work, especially on the "blocked" Colt's. It offers adjustment for second stage creep and the weight may be adjusted slightly with the trigger spring. This trigger comes in 3 and 4.5 lb models.

The Jewell (two-stage)is a true "drop in", but for the first time installer can be a short term nightmare. The instructions are a bit vague about the installation of the spring that secures the hammer/trigger pins. I guess I should say that the instructions completely ignore the whole affair! Other than this little glitch, the trigger is adjustable in all directions. The trigger portion, being a two piece arrangment, has a strange feel on the first stage, but breaks nicely when properly adjusted. Available weight ranges are from too light to very heavy.

Other two-stage triggers are available but are either not easily installed (or adjusted)or I have no experience with them.

The J-P Enterprises single stage trigger feels very good, but I worry about single stage triggers that must depend upon minimum engagement
to offer minimum creep. The chance for doubling at the wrong moment
are quite high.

The K-M and Jewell triggers sell for a little under $200.00. Custom installations may run to about $250.00. I think the J-P trigger sells for about $125.00 and is easily user installed.

Sorry that I probably left out several good triggers, but these I've seen and used. For critical use, I would personally choose the two stage every time.
 
 

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
WARM & WET SE, IL, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 00:01:33 (ZULU) 

Grey;
You are correct ,but what I should have said was the higher the carbon content the more prone to rust it will be.I suspect that barrel longevity is very much like edge holding ability and is at least partially a function of that carbon content.
 
 

I'm getting "server error"so I will appologize in advance if there are multiple posts.
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 01:31:33 (ZULU) 

Al and Andria O.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Celebrating the Joys of the Easter Season the , Ohio, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 11:07:08 (ZULU) 

I am limited to 100 yard range. I would like to try some longer ranges so i was thinking shrink the bull. Does anyone have the dimensions for 500 and 1000 yard target size to simulate them at 100 yrds or a url where they can be found to print out?

I saw a tv program that showed a computer program that backtracks a bullets path to origin. This could be nasty for snipers in there hide.
How are the snipers combating this?

The Army sniper field manual is at this url http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/23-10/toc.htm
sorry i dont know how to make this a link.

What pricing is being found on the "Death from Afar" books and also the White Feather book? I paid 60 each for vol 1&3 of Death from Afar and saw white feather for $75. Can i get them for less somewhere?
Volumes 1 & 3 of Death from Afar were superb books. Awesome.
I also picked up a book from Plaster called SOG. Does anyone have a sight dedicated to SOG?

Where is the nearest 1000 meter range to nashville tn.
 
 

Jeff Argo <jet100@bellsouth.net>
nashville, tn, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 13:12:31 (ZULU) 

Al and peteR,
What are we going to do with you two!! I think Pablito is going to have his hands full babysitting you two. This shoot should be worth the price of admission just to watch you two(HA) take care and have a good easter.

Jeff A,
Glad to see you still remember us!! We liked you better as a "Drug Pusher" you had more time to tell us stories, hows "Barb" doing by the way?? I tried one load of 4064 and it was so-so not any better or any worse than anything else I've shot. I just haven't found the magic combo yet for the 100 or 200 yard load with the 142s. they really come into there own at 300 on out. The 140s do the best at 100 and 200 in my gun with the 4895. You won't believe what I did with my "Coyote" load in my heavy barrel. I loaded up the same load that I use in the BDL for hunting and shot it in the heavy barrel(95gr VMAX) and the first 4 shots went into one hole and I mean one hole!!! there wasn't any oblong or the hole getting bigger I thought the bullet was coming apart or something so I cranked it down two click and the 5th round went into another neat hole about 2" lower I about S..t!! and I dont have a clue as to what the seating deapth was!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 13:19:49 (ZULU) 

Jeff Argo:
When I was in the Marine Reserve unit in Nashville, we had to go either to Ft. Cambell or to Tullahoma for rifle qualification, but we didn't even fire the normal 500 yard KD course, we used the B-mod course, which is at 200 and 300 yards. Sometimes we'd go all the way to LeJeune, so we could do it right. However, when I was in the Johnson City unit before that, we'd sometimes go to Oak Ridge; they do have a thousand-yard range there; of course, it's essentially a drive to Knoxville from Nashville for you... not a really bad drive, but not short, either (approx 3hrs). It's the Oak Ridge Sportman's Club (Association?); if you don't think that it's too far, I'll dig out a phone number for you. I'll ask around, see if I can't find out about one in that area for you that'd be closer.
 

Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:25:48 (ZULU) 

You are cordially invited to my shop to finish lapping these gosh darn (other verbs could not be used) rings. Will provide the beer. Will give you the first condition which was the worst so far.

The first weapon is a Sendero 270, Dual Dovetails, Leupold 3.5-10-50 (this is a hunting rig, don't go ballistic on the dovetails!)
First, installed the bases with my usual heavy handed method, (wish I had a torque value for base to Rem receiver screws) using the Brownell Scope Alignment Tool. Windage alignment was perfect, elevation alignment was bad, both points of the tool were pointed DOWN about a 64th from the horizontal. Shimming will not work because both points were down. If I shim, the shim would only be at the front of the rear base and rear of the front base, eliminating 100% contact with the receiver. Next I started lapping with the Brownell Lapping Tool. After forever, at least 30 minutes, I still only had 50 % contact area on the on the bottom rings with mostof the metal removal being on the front of the front ring and back of the back ring, as would be expected from the elevation alignment problem. Another 15 minutes and I gave up. Got worried about removing too much and not being able to properly tighten the ring screws. Ended up with about 65% contact and mounted the scope. ANY COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next was a set of Mark 4 super highs on a Colt Flat Top. Checked the alignment and it was out on windage and elevation. No way to adjust alignment so I started lapping. And I lapped and lapped and gave up at about the same point as above. ANY COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF ANYONE OUT THERE CAN GIVE ME THE TORQUE VALUES FOR LEUPOLD BASE AND RING SCREWS I WILL BUY YOU A FIFTH OF YOUR FAVORITE BOURBON AT CARLOS II, IF I CAN'T MAKE IT UP THERE I'LL HAVE IT SENT UP THERE.

Comming to the end of this miserable day I decided to pull the scope off my Model 7 and lap those rings. It has an STD one piece base and rings. S**t!!!!!!!!! No more to be said.

What the heck goes on here. This is just like everything else I try to perfect. There's no telling how many scopes I've installed without these fancy tools and lapping. Never new I could have these problems. Now that I know, it's driving me crazy. Is there a happy medium here?????

Now for some reviews:

The Brownell Scope Alignment Tool and the Lapping Tool work great. The Vertical Reticle Instrument works great too. If you think your scope reticles are vertical with the barrel, WRONG, try the instrument.
The rings on the New Ruger 10/22 Magnum suck. It took two layer of masking tape to tighten the scope. Am getting ready to send them back to Bill Ruger. They definetly do not need 4 screws per ring.

Headed back the bench for more lapping. Forearms feel like PoP EyE the Sailer Man.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:45:34 (ZULU) 

Mr Bullet Pat: I already bought the Pampers for Pablito to put on peteR. He'll probably go down screaming and we may need you to hold him down too, remember, I'm gonna treat him like baby treats a diaper. You hear that peteR!!! Chow Chow Chow!!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Foggy Easter morn, taking care of loose ends in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 14:50:54 (ZULU) 

Check at your local gun shop or Wal-mart sporting goods and ask the fellas where you can go. I'm sure that there's a place near you to go but it's not going to be listed as a "shooting range."

Now, I see that Rock, who's right around my home town, has jumped in and mentioned Oak Ridge. It just doesn't much better than Oak Ridge.
This was just a rock throw (sorry Les) from where my folks are and I grew up on that range.
Once I took my date there after it closed for the night. I sweet-talked her into going and I had a key. We went out on the...........well, it's still a good place to shoot 1000 yards.

If you're still having problems finding a place to shoot locally, drop me a line and I'll see what I can hook up for you.

Happy Easter all and remember, it ain't about no stinking Easter bunny!
 
 
 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Tennessee hill-billy stuck in Yankeeville, in IL., USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 15:30:40 (ZULU) 

Looks like I'm going to have to report you to S.P.E.C. ( Society for the Prevention of Extinction fo Coyotes ). Apparently, YOU are the one responsible for the malodorus steamey piles of coyote splatter that's being reported on the upswing.

Tried two loads imr4064 in 260 with 142s. Not very impressive. However, 43.5gr in 308 with 175 MKs does nicely (thanks Mike).

But, yesterday was good because I got to shoot my rifles, and fondle a newly built .50 cal tactical piece. My friend, George Lainhart, got his newly done up .50 back from K&P. Beautiful. I genuflected(?); dropped to both knees, faced the east; and proceeded to start intensive begging for a chance to please shoot this magnif. weapon. He's gonna let me shoot it..just to shut my a** up if nothing else.

Barb's doing fine these days. She's airing out on the clothesline. covered with pine pollen...she likes that..especially in combo with a nice shot of Nitrous.

Pablito:

Glad for the Varget comment. It's working well for me in 308 as well as 260..

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 16:26:59 (ZULU) 

Jeff A...
Al's right, you don't want to have lunch after the shot, get the puck outta' there. Even without computers, the opposition will throw something mean at you, whether it's mortar, or in LE, packs of very bad dogs.

Al O...
I was a single dad from when my son was 6 months old, so I don't do "pampers" anymore, but I will bring a rolled up newspaper for you bad puppys, if you don't play nice, and share your toys!!!
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 16:54:19 (ZULU) 

Steve <KPRP42@MSN.COM>
Norfolk, VA, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 23:32:12 (ZULU) 

Happy Easter
Shadow <timdel@open.org>
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, April 04, 1999 at 23:48:19 (ZULU) 

Thanks,

matt
matt meservey <fj40@enol.com>
Orem, ut, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 05:57:46 (ZULU) 

TJ,
If the bolt is closed and the firing pin is in the forward position a "very" small amount of movement is normal.

What you are seeing is "gap space". Headspace can be within limits, but there can still be too much gap between the barrel and bolt. Most accuracy gunsmiths like to have about .005" inch of clearance between both the bolt nose and barrel, and the lugs and barrel. This will allow a small amount of "matter" (bristle, powder granule, etc.) to be in this area and still have a the bolt close. And also offer a little room for thermal expansion. Just what tactical gunsmiths fit the bolt/barrel interface to I don't know. If someone would measure a couple of stock Remingtons this would be a good safe figure to go by.

If excess gap exists, then too much of the of the case wall will be unsupported. If you really have a measured .062" movement, then that sounds like too much to me. If Bill W. or "Scott" or others will offer their opinions, it will help clear matters up.

One method to check the clearance is to use Plastigage ™ which should be available at automotive shops. It consists of a string-like deformable wax. A small piece is put on the bolt nose and the bolt is closed and then opened. The width of the deformed plastic gauge is now compared to an index on the wrapper. Very accurate and plenty good for our purposes.

Keep us posted on how this plays out.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 10:05:15 (ZULU) 

No offence taken. The fact is, I just have no idea what torque settings might be best for your Choate stock. Nor do I really know whether the type of bedding would change the optimum torque setting, though I suspect it would. If I were you, I'd just take my torque wrench with me to the range and set both to 25 to start, then see what happens when you up them a bit. Just don't go too high. You probably will not need any setting that requires real muscle to loosen with a standard hex wrench. 50 is probably too high. 25-40 is probably the best range.

This weekend I shot the 10FP w/ 35 inch/lbs and managed a 1" group at 200 yards with an untuned load. (I suspect a fluke, but what the hell, my worst group of the day was only about 2.5" at 200 yards, and that was in a high, switching wind and some rain. Judging by the groups at 100 & 200 yards (.75-1.5 @ 100 & 1-2.5 @ 200), I'd say this rifle is capable of .75MOA on a good day with tuned ammo, maybe better with luck.)

Jeff Argo:

Contact Norm Chandler Jr (M40shooter@aol.com). Ask for an Iron Brigade armory price list. The books you refer to range from $50-60 each, depending on whether you are a "book owner" or not. He charged me $50.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls., MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 12:50:17 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the favorable comments buddy!

I probably will need some help to keep from soiling myself at "The Match"

but,

It will be from LMAO watching you try to spot my bullet trace from a modified Deliverance position over a special log at Storm Mountain.
 

SARGE,

How goes the battle with the handloads?
 

TJ,
Check to see if the front trigger guard screw is cranked down too tight, or maybe is sticking up into the receiver a little bit

Chao for now!

peteR
 

Wilde-Thang,
A nice post on triggers with some most excellant points being made.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:01:16 (ZULU) 

Torf,
Thanks for the info on the 6.5-08 improved. I couldn't recall just what it was that you had said. I seem to have the best luck so far with the slightly faster powders in my 260, Varget and IMR4895, the one slower powder that has worked well has been Winchester MRP but it is a "Compressed" load. I have just traded for some 165VV so I will try it out too. It seems as though I run out of case capacity with the slower powders. I also have found that with the 142s and the 140 AMX it seems as though these bullets like some "Jump" to the rifeling where as the 140 seems to do the best right at the lands. I reall haven't tried to down load to the slower speeds yet because I want to stay in the 2700 to 2750 range for the long range work. So far Varget is doing that with the 142s but the accuracy is better from 300 yards on out and is only marginal at 100(.6s and .7s) Where as the 140s with 4895 goes into the .4s all day long at 100 but opens up down range. Any ideas??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:31:56 (ZULU) 

Maybe the bullets are not completely stabilized @ 100 yards? I think current theory with a lot of the "stretch" projectiles is that they don't go to sleep until 250-300 yards.

I think that I've seen it with some .308 VLD types but as I'm limited to 200 yds for the most part, dunno for sure.

Mr Wylde or JR @ H-S Precision, any thoughts on this subject?

chao!
peter <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 13:57:19 (ZULU) 

If you are making reference to fore and aft movement, you may need some assistance. Not that you have an unsafe rifle, but that you might have peace of mind.

The bolt does need a bit of "living room", but certainly not the 1/16" that you mention. The .005" that Ron N. stated would be a minimum to clear all the garbage that collects in the lock-up area, but many rifles live with a lot more than that.

All this is assuming that the clearance stated was with the bolt in the locked position. Hard to believe, but possible.

Unless you have reasons to do otherwise, I would contact the maker.
If they are anything like me, I'm sure they would want to be the first to know of any problems.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Green-side-up, IL, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 14:08:38 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 14:35:37 (ZULU) 

Slings are coming along and should be caught up next week if I dont sew my hand to the table. Rod you should have a bow full by Mondsay or Tuesday next week. Scott I hope yours will be there by the end of next week. Hugo about the same time as Scott. Now in my spare time I am going to produce some for AR's. One thing about the slings, because evrything is finished when you get it, if you don't fall in the average to large size we will need to know so the front strap does not have a bunch of excess material left over after you adjust it for shooting. If you are shorter than average or that freak accident claimed half your arem let me know and I will make the straps to your length. You will still ge through Rod, Scott or TRGT for the sling I just will make it just right for you. I found this out when Darren showed up the other day. Since he has several Black Belts I wont call him short but his arms are not the usual length, compared to the first generation upright guys like me.

Al, thanks for the info on the binoculars. I have 7x50's but my doctor says not to carry anything over a ton and half in the woods.

Pabalito, very good post on triggers. I keep a diagram around because I can't remember what screw is what. A word of warning for the trigger adjusters. When I went to Remington Armorer School, a waste fo time, I was told the warranty is no good if you touch your trigger. Plus this leaves you open for liability if you have an A.D. Schillan makes an adjustable trigger for about $70.00 that puts the liability on them. Just a thought.

Old Dog, get your Butt to the Match so I can buy you a beer. Heck I might even let you look at my Stryder Knife, since you have to wait six months for one. Best knives ever. I might even do a review on it if you guys are interrested.

Well time to shut up. The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 15:32:16 (ZULU) 

I'm not sure why you would want to zero @ 200 yards with tapered bases. Maybe all you mean is that you want the ability to adjust the crosshairs to the same point of impact/point of aim @ 200 yards, while you rifle is actualy zerod out at 600 or something?

Point being: The reason for using tapered bases is so that you will be able to get enough down elevation on the reticule to follow a dropping round at long distance (say 1000 yards). The reason being that many/most scopes won't adjust far enough to give you that kind of adjustment range. You probably know this. You probably also realize that unless you have need to shoot at say, 800+ yards, you don't need to install tapered shims, or whatever.

Being that you are using them, and may be shooting at longer ranges, don't zero your rifle at 200 yards. Zero it at about 500, then just adjust up or down from your 500 yard zero setting, or whatever, for the other ranges. (By zero, I mean the feature of many target scopes where you can zero the rifle at some range, then set up the knobs on the scope so that they actualy read zero on the dials).

You probably know this, but in case you don't, I offer the info.

Interesting note:
Remember the big back and forth on this site a few weeks ago regarding reverse imaging, or whatever? Well exact point-of-aim/poin-of-impact advocates aside, I saw a chart recently from the Vietnam era that indicated that it was A Marine technique to zero the rifle at 500 yards, then when shooting a man (the chest was the recomended target, not the head) aim at the belt area for 100, just below the groin for 200 and 300, the belt again for 400, the chest for 500 and just above the head for 600. It was known by some colorful euphemism like "over the head and below the balls," or something like that. The point is (going back to the previous discussion, not Dan's zeroing question) that the MC advocated holdoff as a method for good marksman, rather than constantly clicking your scope around for exact point of aim. The chart I saw was accompanied by a few others that showed the hold-offs for other situations.

Granted, this does little toward successful target shooting, and in a (mostly police) situation where a clean head shot is required, it may not work for you, but in military sniping where you just need a good clean shot into center of mass, holdoff was recommended, provided the shooter was skilled enough. Interesting.

Semper Fi,
André
 

André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 15:34:11 (ZULU) 

The previous delved-into-in-depth discussion involved a method where you wouldn't even have to know the range at all, provided the ballistics of your round fall within a useful range. That may be more of what you are looking for, unless you will have the time/ability to get a good guestimate of target range inyour upcoming match.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 16:27:05 (ZULU) 

After a little research i concluded that the UARS stock available for $250 from www.autuagaarms.com is the read deal. HOWEVER it is not the one we've all been hearing so much about. After emailing gunsite directly I found out it is an earlier version. available only for the Rem 700 SA. it also has a three round only blind magazine (the current one holds 4). The Gunsite rep. also told me this stock is not covered by any warranty. Beware if it sound too good it probably is
Geoff P Ovens <sgtgeo@hotmail.com>
Lillington, NC, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 17:38:28 (ZULU) 

This is one direct link to FM 23-10,

This is another link to FM 23-10, but I'm not sure if this URL works.

Andre: I also saw the USMC holdoff chart you mention, it was in a August 1968 issue of Guns & Ammo profiling Marine Snipers in Vietnam. Where did you see your charts?

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 18:19:40 (ZULU) 

André
André
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 18:29:01 (ZULU) 

Seriously, although I know this is not Knife Country, the knife Mike M mentioned is made by Duane Dwyer in Oceanside CA. Relevant here because he graduated from the USMC Scout/Sniper School, and is an avid high power guy. If you want an outstanding knife, his number is 760-967-6445.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 19:14:32 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 21:26:42 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 22:33:17 (ZULU) 

But, and this is a BIG BUT, the MK4-M3 has roughly 30-35 moa of optically built in taper... it is the ONLY Leupold scope made this way!... When set up on a rifle with standard bases, you will have about 10-15ish moa of down, and 60-65ish moa of up... after you zero the rifle at the minimum range, without tapered bases!!
The scope was designed with this large optical offset so that it could be used to 1000 yds "out of the box" without needing special bases, and be able to do it in less than one turn of the dial!
If you add tapered bases, you won't able to shoot at close ranges unless there is enough "added tooling error" in the receiver, bases, and rings... all adding in your favor, and that's very unlikely.
This is not a target scope, but a tactical scope designed for one purpose... and doesn't follow "common sense".
To be able to shoot from 50 to 1000+ yds/mtrs the VX-III M3-LR must use tapered bases, The VX-III M1-LR will benifit from tapered bases, and the MK4-M3 must use standard bases.
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 22:36:56 (ZULU) 

Scott:

Just received the shirts and hats today, excellent my friend. Hey, thanks a million, and I'll see if I can't get ya a few more orders.

Hey, just got back from the flatlands, and took a few peeks thru the Bushnell 20x50 x 50mm spotting scope that Santa got for the old man. Was keepin' an eye on some Sandhill Cranes that stopped by one of the old dams. I think for the price it is a damned fine piece of glass. It will work great for the 300yd range anyway.

Oh, I see I have a request for info from the PeteR dude:

"Coning" or gyroscopic precession( for all youse rocket scientists) , is usually more prevalent with the long, slender bullets (VLD's). This is because the longer bullets have a longer distance between center of mass(c of gravity) and center of pressure. This 'coning' usually occurs when the bullet escapes the muzzle, by imperfections in the bullet caused by the rifling. Usually, with regular bullets, the coning motion damps out (goes to sleep) within 100 yds or so. But this distance would be relative to the shape of the bullet, so YES, I would say you would have to increase the yardage on the longer bullets to get desired stabilization.

I've got more on this stuff, but e-mail would be better than to bore the crowd with such voodoo. I have never seen a bullet cone or nod or the distance at which it goes to sleep. I just read and go from there. Maybe someone such as the Gooch could lend some info as maybe he has tracked a bullet's flight path and has seen the differences between the different bullet styles.

Pat:

What's the length of your 260 bbl?? You know I want to pick up an H-S take down this year, and the first bbl will be the 260. You know, I wonder if you could have a few barrels made in the same caliber, but different twists for the bullet suited for the deed? Then I could make a 9.5" or 10" twist for the 120's and another bbl for the 140-142's in a faster twist. Interesting.

Catch ya later
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 23:31:37 (ZULU) 

Personally, I was unaware that the MK4-M3 had a built in optical taper (I use a vari-x II 6-18 Target myself). Kind of a cool feature.

My point was simply that unless one has a need to shoot @ 800+ yards, why bother with any tapers? If one IS shooting at long range, it makes the most sense (to me anyway) to have the scope settings "zerod" at a longer range, say 400 yards (for simplicity's sake, each 1/4 MOA click would be 1 inch at zero for that distance, and easy to remember). To me, it makes the most sense to put the scope's "zero" (again assuming that your scope allows you to reset the actual dials to zero at any point), at some midpoint, or even farpoint, of your average shooting distance, rather than 100 or 200 yards. If I were shooting from 100-800 yards, I would zero the rifle at about 500, reset the scope settings for zero at that zero, then just go to different ranges from there, either through holdoff, or adjusting the scope from the zero (which is 500 yards). The advantage to this is that your scope's zero reference point is at or near your most common shooting distance. It seems to me that it would be much simpler to add, say, five clicks up to a 500 yard zero, than 25 clicks to a 100 yard zero. Plus your zero is at a more conveniant place. If you lose count moving from 500 to 800 yards, it's much quicker to reset to a 500 yard zero, that start over from the settings of a 100 yard zero.

It's all just personal preference, but that's what makes sense to me.

I guess the taper thing and the zeroing thing are really two different subjects.

Semper Fi,
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls., MN, USA - Monday, April 05, 1999 at 23:37:39 (ZULU) 

Many thanks for the fast key to the "FM" Guys if ya aint got it down load it or save as a "favorite" MOST EXCELLANT!
 

JR,

Knew that you could help us out with this facet of shooting and in easy to read prose too! Again MOST EXCELLANT!
 

Knives,
I just was just drawing a comparison (no pun intended), and anyone that says a good knife or two isn't a part of a field kit had better read the archieves......

Last question for the night (well maybe)
What is the "average" engagement distance for a military sniper 1980-1999?
MOUT?
or otherwise (excluding the desert)?

Chao!
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:15:57 (ZULU) 

thanks folks.

mikey
mikey <panacea@ntplx.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:24:55 (ZULU) 

Some of the scopes that are used for tactical shooting have special features that aid in one type of shooting, and give up other features in exchange, and old knowledge does not apply.
Pablito
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:30:55 (ZULU) 

Bushmaster is still making complete weapons on a timely scale but are way behind on lowers. Dont know about other brands.
Respectfully
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 00:44:14 (ZULU) 

I've been window-shopping for Remington 700VS lately, 'til my budget'll let me get one, or I can (hopefully) find a used one (I'm still waiting for donations for my experimentation!) ;-)

The regular counter guy at a local retail gun shop quoted $735, but when I was talking with one of my higher-up friends who work there, he said they could sell it at $640. Wally-World says they go for $639, and a discount sports shop says $641. SO, I figure the local places are comfortable right at $640, +/- $1. A distributor told me that the wholesale price for them was $495, so a shop willing to take a smaller cut should be able to get it to you for less that $640... $619 sounds very reasonable.

$1349? I don't see how at all... unless either they were quoting something else (I don't know what a PSS goes for, anyone else?), were quoting for two of 'em, OR MAYBE, (just a GUESS) since there won't be any more right-handed ones, they've jacked up the price of the ones that they have in stock. Since I need a left-handed one, I don't have to run out and get one tomorrow, but if you want a dextral one, better get it soon, if you want it new.

Hope that helps.

L8R,
Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
TN, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 03:43:32 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 04:15:09 (ZULU) 

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 04:18:23 (ZULU) 

DID YOU CALL ME AL?????????????????????????

I'll let is slide this time, seeing as you are temporarily disabled.
Hope everything works and ya get healed bud.
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 12:07:46 (ZULU) 

Hi All!
Me and my buddy Marco will be attending basic sniper course at SMTC, starting June 7th. We are looking for a ride from Dulles Airport, Washington DC to SMTC (and back the other weekend of course!).
Is there anyone who can take us there? There's some good Dutch beer involved in this deal!!!!! (Providing we can get it though customs.... hee, hee!)

Hope you can help us out!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 13:05:51 (ZULU) 

I have been requested to assist a Police Department in lobbying for the approval of the AR-15/ M-16 (semi-auto only) as a issue patrol rifle.

I am looking for any information on departments that have approved this rifle/ carbine for use. Specifically I need information on how you went about convincing the upper management that may not have looked favorable such an item.

I have the information from Hornady on the TAP Ammunition and the penetration tests. This is to be incorporated into the report.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Bruce G. Buell, NCDS
Senior Instructor, IDRC
Bruce G. Buell <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jax, FL, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 13:34:04 (ZULU) 

Well now I think you lost me. Didn't you say that that Leopold scope has a built in taper? If so, why do you need tapered mounts for it? (assuming you aren't trying to "undo" the tapering.)

The problem with that scope is that it is NOT adjustable enough in one simple movement WITH MARKED INTERMEDIATE STEPS of less than 1MOA. BDC's are great, provided your round has matching ballistics. Fact is, that's unlikely unless you shoot the round the scope was designed for, through the rifle that it was designed for. I'd rather have a scope that is designed for proper target shooting, which in the end, is all sniping is about: hitting what is aimed at accuratly.

Furthermore, it's my understanding that this scope has 1MOA clicks. That's a pretty gross adjustment at longer ranges, and hardly condusive to sniper accuracy. If you spend the bucks for a rifle capable of 2-3" groups at 500 yards, why would you want a scope that is only adjustable in 5" increments at that distance? Unless your argument is that snipers don't need more than a basic gross accuracy, rather than the precision accuracy of a varmit hunter or target shooter? In which case, I'm not sure how many would agree with you. Gross accuracy may be fine in some military situations, but I doubt that a Police sniper can afford anything less than the best accuracy possible.

You might be interested to know that the Chandlers have dimissed this scope as a proper sniping scope due to this very feature (DFA Vol. III), ( and the fact that it is not made of steel) so I'm not the only one who thinks EVERY proper sniping scope should be fully target adjustable in fine increments. Leopold makes great hunting and target scopes. Some are desguised as "Tactical" scopes, and may be useful as such in many ways, but I think the point could be made that a true up-to-date (unfortunately the Unertles are not) tactical sniper scope does not seem to exist, according to some. Just stop gaps.

A properly set up target scope with only two clear, precise, adjustments for windage and elev. should not be too difficult for anyone who is smart enough to be a sniper to use. And it would seem to me that it would be far simpler in the field to just add, say, 7.5 minutes of windage on one dial (Minutes are numbered of my scope), than to have to turn one gross adjustment dial, then do a 1 MOA "fine tune" on it (without markings, and still .5 MOA off) for every yardage. (remember the KISS principle?) Can I assume that that Leupold BDC is somehow calibrated for a given round, like a .308? It must be in order to work. Well what happens if you want to use that scope on a rifle that shoots a round that the BDC is not calibrated for?

No personal offence intended Pablito, but I think it's time some of the "professionals" realize that outside of fieldcraft, sniping is simply a genre of shooting. The same techniques which can be used to win a highpower match, can be applied to help a sniper's technique. A sniper still needs to have a good scope that he can use properly and adjust for good point-of-aim/point-of-impact. And he still needs to be able to hit what is aimed at. The best scope in the world won't help that without the shooter being a good target shot to begin with.

Just look at the difference that MUST exist between Police and Military sniping. They are two different forms of shooting. A Police officer will tend to have to make precise immobilizing (read: head) shots over relatively short distances (I believe that I've seen the average given as about 60 yards), normally in Urban terrain. Tell me that a scope with a BDC dial will help him at that range? Anything less than 300 yards seems like somewhat of a wasted use of BDC and dept money (for example you zero at 200 yards, do about 3 min up for 300, and about 3min down for 100, or whatever you work out to be true).

Whereas a military sniper will tend to make longer distance shots over varied terrain. In Vietnam the average was along the lines of 600 yards. In Beirut the treeline from the embassey was about 500 yards. In Mogadishu shots were made to nearly a thousand (or maybe more). In Desert Storm, the Barret 50 cal was use for shots over a mile. A BDC might be of more help in this situation, but I would think full adjustability and ruggedness would be more important.

In any case, I think the argument can be made that you can't generalize sniping and say that every sniper has PARTICULAR scope needs that don't conform to what I might use for target shooting, or that any one scope, "Tactical" scope, or not, conforms to what snipers need, since snipers don't really conform to any particular model themselves. Again no offence, but that Leupold scope just sounds crippled to me. Maybe if I used one I would think differently, but it just seems like a combination of guesswork and assumptions that makes that scope accurate.

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 13:36:39 (ZULU) 

Yes, this is SNIPER country, and the point is not paper punching, but a sizable percentage of snipers (if not a majority) are those in Law Enforcement. Statistically, they would have little use for a long range tactical scope. A good target style scope would be best. The military HAS their scopes, so people who are buying tactical scopes, while they might be active military, are NOT buying them for their military rifles.

Another portion of shooters at this website are just target shooters, former military snipers, or sniper wannabees. In their case a good target scope might still be best, if for no other reason than versatility.

So it really comes down to the fact that a relatively small number of particular shooters (the Military snipers) have any use for the so-called tactical scopes, and in my opinion, most others would be better served be a good target scope. Some might say that the military would also be better served by a more versitile scope that is not so dated and limited.

I can speak for no one but myself, but when I shoot, I want to know that I will not be limited in any reasonable way from achieving utmost accuracy at any range, especially short ones. If I were a LE sniper, who worked in a short range of 50-200yards, I would ignore all this tactical scope crap and spend less money on a better target scope that would give me the ability to separate the hippocampus from the spinal cord at 200 yards, should that be my need, not simply place a shot somewhere in a 2-3" area. Especially if this limitation is not caused by the rifle or the shooter, but by a scope that will not fine adjust. I KNOW that I can shoot much better than a 1 MOA scope would allow, most good shooters should be able to. Why spend $2000 on a .25 MOA rifle, then shoot with a 1 MOA scope? Just because the USMC with its very limited budget and slight regard for the black art of sniping does it?

Reminds me of the deffinition of close enough for government work that we used to throw around when I was active: Measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk, cut with an axe.

Just my opinion.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 15:00:24 (ZULU) 

As always,
André
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 16:19:01 (ZULU)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 16:36:54 (ZULU) 

No!... I said... "To be able to shoot from 50 to 1000+ yds/mtrs the VX-III M3-LR must use tapered bases, The VX-III M1-LR will benefit from tapered bases, and the MK4-M3 MUST USE STANDARD BASES"... and the scope under discussion is the MK4-M3

Whether you think 1 moa adjustments are valid or not, or whether you think the MK4-M3 is worth the money, is strictly a matter of opinion, and not worth the time... its like arguing Blonds vs Brunettes... both have their points.

I use both one turn BDC Leupold tactical scopes, and 1/4 moa B&L tactical scopes... they are both very fine, and both do the job they were designed for.

As to a debate, this is best left to those that have used both with enough time on each, to offer practical advice, as opposed to theoretical opinions. One is not better than the other (in spite of what Chandler says)... they both have there place.
Being the owner of 3 B&L 10x tacs, and 5 Unertls, I would gladly part with some more green for a MK-M3, or VX-III M3-LR... they do different jobs.
To argue the merits, or disadvantages, of a piece of equipment, based on catalogue data, or secondhand gossip, does this site a disservice.

When a reader asks for advice on a particular piece of equipment, they may be contemplating the spending a long piece of green, and they need (and deserve) opinions from those that know the item, rather than guesses, or theoretical debate, based on nada.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 16:53:11 (ZULU) 

I think the apples/orange comment applies. Like you said, in LE total precision is required. In the grit and shit of a military environment, you will not find to many snipers trying for 800 yard head shots when bodies are visible. A kills is a kill is a kill. For them, having a one rotation turret helps keep their head out of their asses when the pucker factor goes up. Sure, they might not hit a target exactly at point of aim at 900 meters, but under the conditions they are shooting, I doubt they care. For a cop, well now this is a totally different matter. He needs that total precision AND he seldom has to worry about two or three revolutions on the dial. In this environment, at ¼ moa dial makes a lot of sense.

On zeroing: If you have the facilities to zero at 400 or 500 yards, by all means, do so. But you would still want to set the turret to mark "that zero" for the indicated range of 400 or 500 yards -- which ever you used. You’d then have to verify that the turrets tracked down and up to the other indicated ranges on your BDC. The Brits did this in WWII as an assurance that the zero was ON at the ranges they were most likely to engage a target at. A Brit sniper knew his 400 yard zero was bang on. If he had to dial down, the thing might not track exactly but a hit could be expected since the range was shorter and he had a larger margin for error.

I may have misunderstood you when you mentioned zeroing at 500 and setting the turret to read "0". If that is what you meant I would have respectfully and with good nature, disagree with you. It can certainly work, but seems to introduce a little confusion. Setting "0" on a ¼ moa scope to equal 100 yards at least gives you a bottom end point. A closed gate or block of sorts. Zeros (reading "0") set specifically for a higher range, with the expectation of dialing away from it, create the ready hassle of worrying about finding it again in less than ideal conditions. Why bother? I would suggest zeroing the dial for 100 and plainly marking the dial for your verified 500 yard zero. You have to shoot the dope anyway to verify it, so you KNOW where that 500 zero really is and record it. If you need to use holds due to a target rich environment, you can always put on the preferred or averaged dope and hold from there.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:06:37 (ZULU) 

When you refer to the "plastic military grip" I am unsure what you mean. The buttstock or the hand grip? Big difference. If you mean the new standard M4 hand grip, yes! It is worth it. Try to fire a carbine with the old thin round grip until the rifle is hot. Now install the M4 grip. MAJOR difference! One; the new grip fills you hand much, MUCH more comfortably. Two; it is double heat shielded. You never feel much heat. The old grip let a lot of heat leach through. The oval M4 grip is just a far better design than those cheap and crappy carbine grips that preceded it.

Now if by "plastic military grip" you mean the non-collapsing buttstock, No. It is not worth it. You are paying for a look. Not a function. Get an old M16A1 buttstock. It is short and works well in tight environments when mounted on a carbine. It is also dirt cheap. I got one for $2.00 one time at a show. Nobody wants them because they are too short for a full sized rifle. But they work well on a carbine. Granted, a pre-ban collapsible stock is better still, but they ain’t legal no’ mo’.

Ross, You will love the Bushmaster. I would recommend the Armalite too if it was not for that hoaky muzzle break. Sorry Armalite! I LOVE your stuff but will not have one of those things on my AR barrel. You can not get to the muzzle to maintain it, and it creates way to much "side" noise and dust. It is a darn .223 for heavens sake, you do not need a muzzle break at all! Not even on the carbine.

Ross, if you want a 20" for accuracy, avoid chrome bores. Re: the article I wrote.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:28:56 (ZULU) 

"Leupold makes great hunting and target scopes. Some are disguised as "Tactical" scopes, and may be useful as such in many ways, but I think the point could be made that a true up-to-date (unfortunately the Unertls are not) tactical sniper scope does not seem to exist, according to some. Just stop gaps. "

… somehow looses validity, in light of the fact that… the new VX-II 3.5x10 M3-LR, which has one turn BDC's was designed to meet army specs, to the letter… is one of their top selling scopes, and is the new official army sniper scope, and is made of Aluminum, and the army buys 85% of all made… what is it that they know???

No one ever said that the same scope is suitable for military as for LE… for LE, the average hunting rifle would do well. As another said, with 1 moa clicks you aren't more than ½ moa out… that's 5" at a 1000 yds, and at that range, without the benefit of "sighters", that 5" is the least of your worrys… and it's no problem to "split a click" for a 2.5" error at 1000yds. Wind, temp, and other variables will be a far bigger issue, that these "limits".

If you've ever tried to adjust the ¼ moa turrets on a MK4-M1 in poor or overcast light, you know the real meaning of frustration… even at a bench rest, in good light… it's almost impossible to know how many of those 10 turns you've made… it's easier to read a machinist's micrometer in the dark. And whether you are a military shooter, or shoot tactical matches, not every shooter has time to play with ¼ moa clicks… often your target appears, and your spotter says "six seven five, and pull two left. That's not the time to figure how many turns to make, or how many you made before. You want your range "NOW"!

André… it's two different worlds, with two different sets of criteria… don't dismiss one because it doesn't fit your type of shooting. There are enough shooters using expensive, one turn tactical scopes out there… they can't all be wrong… and the Army, and Marines can't be that stupid. They do this stuff for a living (literally). There are many military shooters that are accomplished 1000 yd competitors at Perry, and Wimbleton, and they know of the existence of target style scopes. I would think if they thought they were better, they might use them??? Don't cha think?

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:36:19 (ZULU) 

Well then we are probably simply losing sight of the original questions, which was:

"I am wondering if the Leupold Mk 4 M-3 will zero at 200 meters with one of the tapered bases available. "

Now, unless I have been thouroughly confused, the scope referred to is one of the tactical scopes with the built in optical taper. Is that correct? Unfortunately Pablito, my confusion probably stems from your reference to built in taper, in regards to a question involving adding tapered bases to that scope. If I misunderstood you there, I apologize, but you can probably see the source of the problem.

Another argument is my point, and I think it's entirely valid, that one should zero a scope at or near the range that one will shoot most of the time (if only for conveniance sake). Perhaps this is easier with a tactical scope equiped with a BDC, or perhaps not, it really doesn't matter. As I said previously, if I were shooting at a long range often enough to justify the purchase of a long range scope, I certainly wouldn't be zeroing that scope at 100 or 200 yards. But that's just me, your mileage may vary.

That led to the next point of contention:

My point: If one is looking for a scope, then the primary consideration should be "what do I need to use this scope for, and at what ranges?" If one will be shooting tactically at 200-1000 yards, then maybe a different scope is appropriate than one that will be used tactically at <300 yards. The "goal" of the Military sniper at long range, is entirely different than the goal of a Police sniper at 75 yards. I think that that should be obvious, and I think that it is fair to say that the vast majority of Police sniper engagements are at what can be considered close range: <300 yards, or even less than 150 yards. And I think all can agree that a scope with a BDC style of elevation adjustment is fairly pointless at 75 yards. That's not theory.

My point is this, and it has nothing to do with wacky theories, or catalogs, or voodoo, or the Chandler Bos., or whatever else I may be guilty of: It would be a disservice to a Police Sniper to insist that a long range tactical scope is the best tool for the job, given the <300 yard range that he will generally use.

If someone who will shoot at 75-500 yards 95% of the time, and at <150 yards 99% of the time is looking for a scope, a Target scope is the obviously better choice for two reasons:
1). The BDC is fairly useless at such short ranges to be used for the purpose it was designed. This says NOTHING about the quality of the scope, simply that it is not being used properly. It will be a fish out of water.
2). The finer adjustments possible on a target scope (whether they be 1/4 or 1/8 MOA) are far more useful for accurate shooting at short range. Maybe it is correct that 1 MOA is all that is neccessary for a Military sniper at 800 yards, but at 200 yards I think fine adjustments can have their place.

Adding another wrinkle to the argument is that a good tactical scope can run $1000, as opposed to half that for a good target scope. When you are spending the dept's money, this may be an issue.

Maybe there is no need to have 1/4 MOA at 500 yards. A 1 MOA scope will get you to withing about 2.5 inches of POA, while a 1/4 MOA scope will get you to within about 3/4 of an inch. Remembering that errors can be additive, if the rifle is capable of 1 MOA and the scope is capable of 1 MOA, you could find yourself a full 5 inches off at 500 yards (assuming that the gun is being fired with a vice like grip and eagle-eye aim), vs an error of a little over three inches at for a 1/4 MOA scope on a 1 MOA rifle. Maybe that kind of accuracy is not needed most of the time. I could see that. Maybe, one could argue, that kind of accuracy is not even needed by a Police sniper at 100 yards. But that still doesn't answer the question of why all snipers should be using tactical scopes (I know you didn't SAY that Pablito, but it certainly seems implied sometimes at this site among some).

When I shoot at 200 yards, I like to think that the only thing keeping me from hitting exactly where I want to is ME, not my scope. I like full control of my adjustments, not some vague 2 + or - some number of 1 MOA clicks. Maybe at 800 yards, the conveniance would be nice, but at 200?

I don't question the quality of your favored scope, nor do I question the quality of your shooting, or even your belief in your methods, Pablito. All I say is we should be practical when buying a scope, and a tactical scope MAY be impractical for many, even many snipers, if their tactical world does not involve long range shooting.

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:59:37 (ZULU) 

you gotta love this one

Pablito "Works /Tastes Great" Coburn

vs.

Andre "Less Minutes/Filling" Peters

Thanks dudes, I learned from both of you on this little text war and with such restrained diplomacy!

So where does my B&L Tactical fit in?

any takers on the engagement ranges for military snipers from 1980 until todays date. sometimes I ask others wish to know.

Chao
 

peteR <PNGREIF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 18:42:02 (ZULU) 

"After all at 800 yards can you mill close enough to really make that 1" vs 1/4" make a difference?"

No, 'yote bate... you burn 'em with your laser!
 

Pablito
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 19:07:32 (ZULU) 

I case it wasn't noticed, many target turrets (I can't speak for all) don't simply spin around past the same zero mark over and over. The turret will move in and out from the body of the scope tube and marks beneith it will indicate WHICH zero one is on at any geven moment.

I won't argue that it's easier to use than a BDC turret (it's not), but it does not, as some contend, leave you in the dark as to how many spins you've made past zero on the dial.

No can of worms there, I'm just pointing this out in case someone hasn't noticed this feature on their scope and it has it.
André
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 19:17:49 (ZULU) 

I will have to defend the variable LR M3 for military type shooting. I would not really recommend it for LE since there are equally good alternatives. For a year now I have used this scope and it does what I tell it pretty well. If I aim center mass at 600 yards and have it dialed to the proper dope, it HITs center mass at 600. Not way above, not way below. Moving out to 800 and it is the same story. Under 10x observation I can not tell that it is hitting far off my aim point. What's not to like?

Not surprisingly, at 100 yards I am less than a 1/4 inch (in any direction) off my center hold. I can live with that! It is ideal for LE? Hell, I don't know, but I would use it in a pinch. Given the choice, no I would not. I’d go ¼ moa but NOT 1/8TH!!!! Neither would I use a fixed 10x as some police have done. You limit yourself with a fixed scope in any power. But I am digressing.

Andre’s question was "Why should LE use a tactical scope at all?"

They needn't. Qualification: Depending on their environment! As long as the scope is capable of repeatable settings and the zero does not wander, they have MANY viable choices. Too many to list! The reason "tactical" scopes have come into favor is that they have easily adjusted turrets and the repeat well. Hunting scopes generally SUCK in this way. First you have to remove the protective caps. Then you got some junky coin slot or barely raised ridge. Working with them blows. You can not even look up and see your settings. You end up just using a hold as your hunting scope can be a pain to dial in. Well, if you are just going to use a hold, why fuss over a 1/8th, 1/4 or 1 moa scope? You ain't using it anyway if it is a hunting scope. Hold from zero and shoot. NOT ideal for LE!!! Too many lawyers and media types to record the foul up.

Now target scopes are a step in the right direction. Better turrets. Good repeatability for the most part. Most LE do not even need anything more fancy than a duplex reticle. At least that is my opinion. I do believe they need at LEAST a duplex. A fine target cross hair is next to useless. Hell, I do not even like them for varmint shooting! Blend in to much. Easy to lose in real terrain. Fine for BR though where you have a black and white target.

Cops certainly do not need a fixed 10x or a 1 moa scope. I do not believe anyone here has asserted otherwise. In truth, if they do not mind the length, a B&L Elite 4000 would work just find as well as about a dozen other "varmint" scopes, BUT I do feel the 1/8 minute clicks are next to useless. They are too fine for fast adjustment and can be easily confused. It takes too many revs just to dial up and keepign track of where you are is twice as bad as on 1/4 moa scopes. The 15 moa turret usually found on a 1/4 minute scope is much easier to work with under 400 yards. It is also precise enough to make an eye shot at 300 yards. Don’t believe that? Come to the Hathcock Match and watch it be done. If your zeros are correct, and you rifle shoots, you can hold minute of eye ball. Seen it too many times to question it. Guys make head shots on steel all the time out to 300 and many go right in the eye. Luck? Fluke? I doubt it. I have seen guys purposefully draw faces with bullets on steel at this range. For fun. Forget 1/8th moa. Leave it to the bench maggots. With winning being decided by a single .000 of an inch they may REALLY need them to win! But you do not.

Wow. And I said I wuz not going to voice a long winded opinion very often on this here roster. I must promise myself this daily and break it twice as often! Sorry guys.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 19:40:16 (ZULU) 

Stefan,
Dulles airport is just across the water from where I work. Email me the dates and times and I'll get you there, no problem.

Jim

Jim Hampshire <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 20:04:20 (ZULU) 

Rod, we're shooting through Wednesday!

Pablito
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 20:38:38 (ZULU) 

Scott brings up exactly my point about eye shots however. At a range that is short enough for an eye shot (50-350 yards or so), you need a scope that is accurate enough to make that zero. With a 1 MOA adjustment, you MIGHT make that shot, but you would be relying more on luck and a happenstance exact zero. At 200 yards, you might hit the wrong eye!

Anyway, I enjoyed all this today, and I hope some real info was passed around as well.

Semper Fi,
 

André
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 20:38:51 (ZULU) 

Maybe next time. I gotta make sure I can put my money where my mouth is first!

Later,
André
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 20:42:30 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 21:00:20 (ZULU) 

It took me 10 minutes to type my post on lapping etc. Let's get on that subject for a short time por favor.

To really scare you, I saw a 1" SCOPE RING REAMER in Brownells also!!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 21:41:40 (ZULU) 

What are you doing on the computer... get back down in the basement and back to lapping rings!

Actually, I'm going to have my Sinclair cut down on a lathe, so it's 30mm with a piece of #600/#1200 wet and dry, cuz I need to cut 50 moa of tilt into pair of MK4 rings, which is about 1/16" down on the front ring... a lot to take down with paste (about 9 years!).

I would pass on the scope ring reamer... you'll still have to lap them in the end.
 

Pablito
USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 23:31:25 (ZULU) 

About turning down your Sinclair ring lap tool: Sinclair told me those are hardened steel. Just in case you didn't already know.
Brian
Brian Meyette <brian@turbont.net>
Cornish, NH, USA - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 23:47:59 (ZULU) 

Wideners has it priced about as cheap as I can get the Remington that I usually use. I noted that it is the brass used in White Feather ammo (at least originally, if not still).
 

André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 00:02:08 (ZULU) 

Just waiting for Leupold to make a tactical 4.5x14x40,30mm tube with 1/2min elevation adjustments(one rotation not a requirement), 85+ min of adjustment; to have the advantages of an M3LR but for my 300WM.

Thanks to all those who contributed the 300WM loads data.

Pablito, when is Carlos II?
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Cowtown , CO, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 03:05:19 (ZULU) 

Thanks "Loads"
Larry <remington@TheRamp.net>
Marseilles, Illinois, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 03:06:17 (ZULU) 

The Undude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif., USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 04:32:55 (ZULU) 

The Carlos Hathcock Memorial Match will be held October 2-3, 1999. The proceeds of this match will go to benefit the Hathcock family.

Email ryan@stormmountain.com
http://www.stormmountain.com

Don't ask for mail on it unless you are thinking of going, the postage/expenses come out of the proceeds to the family... Storm Mountain takes NOTHING out of this match, not even their own expenses.
The match is held near Keyser, (which is near Cumberland). The land where they separate the men from the sheep... with a crowbar (ask Al O. He'll explain!).

B.Rogers...
I also use the Buris "Z" rings on a flat top, with one of those Colt/ARMS spacers... set up a Leupold 6x Tac so the 100yd zero is 2 clicks of the bottom. I now have the full 50 moa of elevation. When I remove the scope, I remove it with the spacer as one unit.
I called them to see about 30mm size, and they said "No!" If they came out with them in 30mm. they'd own the market.

Larry...
On bedding the first few inches of the barrel. It's been done by benchrest shooters for years, and works fine. I have done my 40x's this way.

Kodiak...
On rapid engagement of targets for a sniper... we mostly think of the role as creeping through the bad bush to some hide, and waiting for hours/days for one shot (see the entrance page to this site)... but consider that the military is making more training available for "Urban Combat" as a result of our experiences in Somalia, and other similar situations where we are dealing with multiple, untrained, but very dangerous, enemy. Or places like Panama, where we are in an urban environment, and the shooter may by covering an airport, where shoots are long, but it's an "Urban" scenario... or consider places where the sniper is effectively doing perimeter guard duty, behind a berm with 800-1200yds of almost clear field of view, and may need to be able to take many targets under a siege... aka Khe' Sanh

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 07:40:19 (ZULU) 

I'm also putting an AR flattop target system together. Was wondering how I was going to attach the scope. Was thinking about using taller 1" rings to achieve the required cheek-weld. So my question: Is it a better idea to use the ARMS #5 riser to protect the upper receiver(my concern) while being able to use low rings? Will I be able to get a good cheek-weld with this setup? Any info regards the AR flattop would be appreciated. I'm planning on using a VXIII 3.5x10x40 tactical. This is my short to medium range rig.

Out here in the flatlands, the praire dogs avail good training opportunities. Gotta sneak up(sniper low crawl) from down wind and make good wind calls on these small moving training aids. Then at dinner...joking.

Read somewhere on this page that praire dogs afford the ultimate training.

This page is numeral uno.

For those interested, the Serbs have approximately 70 Barret 82A1 50's. Those taking there 24's, be careful and good luck.

Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Cowtown, CO, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 09:45:19 (ZULU) 

I like the Colt riser, as does B.Rogers. I remove it with the scope.

I spent 3 weeks shootin' P'dogs in the Dakota Bad Lands, and went through almost 7,500 rounds in the three weeks. It was the best vacation I ever had..
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 12:27:42 (ZULU) 

Steve,
I understand what your saying and that is a good system you have but when going back and forth and trying to crank in wind and elevation and with a last name of "MURPHY" you know my "Cousin" will visit and I will get screwed up and forget where I am!! Hell I am famous for dialing in the opposit wind when Iam just out practicing by myself!!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 13:24:59 (ZULU) 

Seriously, I would like to see some of the info...if anyone cares to email it.
 

Thanks,

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 14:05:39 (ZULU) 

Old Dog sounds like you are thinking about going to the shoot. Great be the first time a lawyer bought me a drink.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 14:52:13 (ZULU) 

Scott, does SC benefit from purchases made from Amazon that are referred by SC? I actually found the books on another site that was less expensive, but don't want to cost SC any $$$
dustpan <dustpan@handgunner.net>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 15:22:22 (ZULU) 

When you say "Tactical shooting is "NOT" sniping," what exactly do you mean? Are you just refering to a course description in which the "Tactical shooting" course does not include any traditional slow fire sniping-style shooting (more of a combat shooting course) or are you speaking generaly?

Thanks,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 15:27:01 (ZULU) 

Old Dog...
Here's the skinny on the Carlos shoot. Oct 2nd and 3rd. Start time is 8:00 am on the 2nd.

$150 per shooter, teams prefered, you can be matched with other loners if you're alone, or regester as a "Loner"!

Stuff...

A) Rifle (no larger than .338 Lapua)

B) 150 rnd live, and 5 rnds blank.

C) MUST HAVE, in pack!! and carry with you (not leave in the car!)
Rucksack, or Alice pack.
Entrenching tool
Firing support
Compass
Hearing protection
Small pruning shears
Ghillie suit (Wookie, or leaves)
Minimum, 2 qt canteen, or camelback
First-aid kit
Bee sting/alergy kit
Rain kit (pancho/rainsuit)
Food (they aren't feeding you)

D) Misc stuff... Calculator, pencils, clipboard, Mildot-master,etc
what ever you think you need

Though not on the "O-fish-ul" list, you must have some sort of Mil ranging optics... your rifle scope, or spotting scope... NO LASER's.
Spotting scopes will have a maximum, but it has been changed, and I don't know what it is.

There are 9 sections

1- KIM's (Keep in memory) remember details of ten items, and write them down later.
2- Stalk (Gillie creep)
3- Target detection
4- Range estimation
5- 100 yd small group shooting
6- Moving targets
7- Stress course
8- Field fire
9- High/Low Angle fire

You may enter as an individual, or a team, and awards will for 1st and 2nd place team... and 1st and 2nd place individuals.

On the target detection excersize, there was a maximum of 20x in the rules, but because there are scopes that have a minimum of 22x, Rod has said that will be changed... but I don't know what the max for spotting scopes will be (Rod??)

This is brief (I gotta' go make some money), if you have any other questions, drop me an e-mail, or contact Rod at http://www.stormmountain.com

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 15:37:43 (ZULU) 

As a winter project, I made several AR flat top interface prototypes
for mounting scopes, irons, and optical sights.

These units are made of machined aluminum, are the same radius as the front ring on a M70/M700, and allow both scope and irons to be affixed. With this mount, the front scope ring may be solidly moved forward of the upper receiver in excess of two inches. This allows
the use of short/medium rings and any height bases that will fit the spacing of the M70/M700 front ring. This base, while designed for highpower use, allows switching from irons to scope quickly (and easily), but should also lend itself well for tactical use.

The idea was to produce a sturdy mount that would allow a comfort zone (fore and aft/up and down) for any optics or side mounted iron sight. Attachment to the upper receiver is with three vertical jamb screws (into the flat top slots), with small metal pads (in the bottom of the slots)being used to eliminate marring of the upper.

What think guys........is there a place for this mount?

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SUNNY - SE, Illinois, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 15:45:46 (ZULU) 

Jr,
Sorry!!! I forgot to answer you question the other day. My rifle has a 26" barrel with a 1 in 8 twist with the 3 lans and groove.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 16:33:42 (ZULU) 

Also, FYI all, I put a target barrel and stock, Bushnell 3-18x scope, and Harris bipod on my 10/22 and have been shooting it at 200+ yards. Total investment about $300, including rifle. IMHO, shooting a .22 with std match ammo at that range seems to involve practicing many of the same things as shooting my .308 PSS at much longer ranges.

Brian

Brian Meyette <brian@turbont.net>
Cornish, NH, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 16:59:17 (ZULU) 

I'm telling you, I got California plans for October...just be sure to let pretty L know when you are leaving town so we can firm up my visitin' plans:) Btw, is there any need for me to rent a car, or can I just cruise around in that squad car?

Hey, GOT MY SLINGS!!! Gashed my thumb open cutting the tape on the box, but finally got in. Guys, do yourself a favor and buy a couple of these slings...the workmanship is outstanding, the design is cutting edge, and the service top drawer. Seriously, for $50 this is one of the best deals going in serious shooting supplies. Thanks Mike.

Pablito: Thanks for the gist of the Carlos shoot. That memory part has me seriously concerned....:)

To anyone shooting an AR: Over the past several months I have been fortunate enough to get to know Bill Wylde [see his mount post above]. While the internet and some magazines are filled with people claiming to build great AR's, let me tell you, Bill is the real deal. Honest as the day is long, and truly the greatest single source on load development and AR accuracy building that I have ever seen...not to mention a very accomplished shooter. I have seen some of the stuff he has developed for some agencies that I am sure he would prefer remain nameless....awesome is the only word that fits. He will likely chew my tail for bragging on him, but seriously, this is one guy that you owe it to yourself to listen to. Thanks for all your help Bill.

Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 17:35:38 (ZULU) 

don't worry about KIMS game, we'll have to add another day when Al O. finds out about it.......................... ;-)

Lets see :"THE MATCH"Sat & Sun, Monday: Me & Al. O, Tues: Andre & Pablito, Weds: Al.O and KIMS. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Chao

You guys have fun while I'm playing at work OH-TAY???
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 17:57:25 (ZULU) 

For those of you who have kindly been waiting, the Large, XL, and XXXL Sniper Country shirts will be in stock again by the end of the week. Sorry for the short delay in shipment. XXXLs are again available!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 19:00:30 (ZULU) 

Hello,
I have a question to ask.I am trying to get either a Remington 700VS or a Remongton 700P (PSS) and every place I call cannot get them.My question is this.If I were to buy the Remington 700VLS,and change the stock to a composite stock (like the vs,or m-24 style)will my accuracy suffer becuase of this?
Or as long as I have the correct torque,the accuracy would be just as good as the VS?
Please respond,so I can either order it or not order it.

Thanks.

mike
Mike <panacea@ntplx.net>
USA - Wednesday, April 07, 1999 at 20:13:40 (ZULU) 

p.s.-what is the Remington 700VLS? (BDL short action ?)

mike
mike <panacea@ntplx.net>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 00:32:11 (ZULU) 

Pat:

Thanks for the heads up on the 260, I think I'd have to go with a 24" tube on the take down. Man, the dilemma. Well I do want to rebarrel the 300, throw a brake on the SOB. Maybe I will just go for a hot rod reach out and touch somebody caliber with that rifle. Thoughts on which caliber would be appreciated. I know, I know, why wreck a perfectly good 300. Well, cause I have recently come into posession of another. But I do want to play around with the .264 dia calibers. The TorF and mrbullet have shown me the light. Plus the H-S pistol I am paying off, and I havent decided where to go on that yet, for caliber. I'm about a wreck.

Don't try to cut hardened steel. Grinders work wonders. And lapping the scope rings taking too long? Which sort of lapping compound (grit) are ya using? I used to lap those blasted Winchester recoil lugs and bolt faces, day after day after day. Never lapped scope rings, but it can't be THAT tough. Maybe I'll ask if I can use some scrap steel from work and make a fixture for this. I'll make millions!!!

Scott:

Showed Janet the new wear today, she loved 'em. Wants to know where to get 'em. I told her I'd get her the address. I'll bring it in tomorrow and ask her, "whats in this for me??" "perhaps a better discount on the Leopuld M3's???" or something like that. LOL.
Oh, by the way, one of the headhunters at work was telling me about a site called pilotline.com or something like that. I can't find it but if it's pretty cool, let me know, and where to find it.

One more thing, who of youse has experience with the 300 Ultra?? Lemme know what you think about this turdcutter.

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 00:49:17 (ZULU) 

Pablito
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 01:12:08 (ZULU) 

Sorry man just couldn't resist
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 01:54:30 (ZULU) 

I found this while looking for pubs one night, and some FMs are restricted (military personnel can get them with a registered login). However, The Sniper FM and several other good ones are freely available.

Hope it helps.

ALL: On another note, to everyone who responded to my question about distance ranges in the Illinois area, I believe that I have found a 1000 meter range in Wisconsin (north of Madison). A buddy of mine is sending me info and I will post it when I get it.

Also, I had asked for input on the Blaser R-93 tactical. Since I couldn't get any real data from the manufacturer, I just decided to pick one up. When I get it on the range, I will be sure to post my test results (the manufacturer ASSURES me that it is a samn fine weapon...go figure).

Later all... And remember, "One who, fully prepared, awaits the unprepared will be victorious" --> Sun-Tzu

ADownie
adownie <adownie@interaccess.com>
Naperville, IL, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 02:44:51 (ZULU) 

RE: HELP in purchasing spotting scope

Please lend me your advice as to a good spooting scope.

I intend to purchase a new spotting scope. After extensive on-line research, I am sorry to report that I have not found very much information (a surprising lack of pictures!) on the major brands of spotting scopes. My research has yielded the following:

Kowa TS-610 series:
Good spotter. However, it is not waterproof
and I can not find any information as to whether it has rubber armor. (kowascope.com). Do they offer a camoflauge version???

RedField: No longer in business

Leupold 25x60:
Good spooter. compact. It is armored and light at 20.5 ozs. (www.leupstv.com/pi-spot.html)

Steiner:
I could find NO information about Steiner optics, which disapoints me because I have used their optics in the past, and was impressed....anybody know where to find them on the web??????

Baush& Lomb:
hmmm.......

My Questions:
(1) Does anybody reccommend any other brands not mentioned above? (don't even mention zeiss... I would have to get a second mortgage)
(2) Which brand does the military use?

I appreciate the comments,

Jason

P.S. on the bino conversation....my opinion is to get 10x. I worked on fishing boats for years, and we always used 7x, but only because it is already hard to keep the glasses steady as you pitch and role in the ocean - 10x would only magnify the movement. But on land, 10x glasses can be steadied if HELD PROPERLY to get a very clear picture....on holding glassess = on the boats we never "grabbed" the classes like the guys in hollywood do...(forming a letter "C" with your hands). We always anchored our elbows DOWN, straight at the ground, and then straighten all fingers and balance the glass on a "bed" of fingers. This allows the most steady platform for viewing through glasses (besides using a rest), AND allows for extended viweing without making your arms tired.....for what it is worth....

Jason S <jasonps@msn.com>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 03:32:50 (ZULU) 

Mikey: If you pay $1349.00 for a Remington 700VS make sure they kiss, because, Buddy, you just got screwed. A PSS, if you can find one, should be around 700 to 800 bucks. Maybe a little cheaper if you really look around.

Saaaarge: YOU CALLED ME peteR!!! Damn! Pox on you Sarge. And I though we were buddies. Maybe, just maybe, it is time to light up those hills again around Area 51.

Paul D. Pablito gave a very good synopsis of the the Carlos II shoot in October. But he neglected to mention RULE #1. NO WHINING! I do not know how that will affect peteR, since he is always bitching about something or other. Yes, peteR, that prime rib steak from the Candlewyck is mighty tasty. And as far as your "Deliverance" log at Storm Mountain which you have waiting for me. I don't miind straddling that log as long as you are not behind me. Just as long as I get the job done and send you packin'. Its like the country boy who came home from his honeymoon and his paw asked him where his bride was. Well, the boy said "Paw,she was a virgin so I had to kill her." His paw said, "Boy, why did you do that?" And the country boy replied" Well, paw, if she wasn't good enough for her family, she's certainly not good enough for ours." peteR, Im sure you can relate, unless you have be doinked by that surf board once too often.

As stated previously: Chow, chow, chow - you're dog meat, peteR.

Going to sleep. Dreaming about cleaning a certain surfer dude's clock at the Carlos Shoot.

Oh, one more thing. Mike (the Undude) and Pablito: I am going to order a new 3.5 x 10 LR M1 from Premier Reticle this week with the illuminted crosshairs. Any other comments positive or negative?

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
I have Reached and Now Hold the Sword of Vengance in the Grand State of , Ohio, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 05:11:16 (ZULU) 

Cramped arms in Winston-Salem, out!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 10:34:54 (ZULU) 

SMTC no longer sells tapered shims. Anyone know where I can get a couple of sets to fit Dual Dovetails?

Scott, any thoughts on maybe setting up some non-LE/MIL or rookie competition at CarlosII. Saw the post and I'm afraid I don't have the info to learn all the stuff in time to compete with you bigs dawgs. May have to 'audit this course' and compete next year. Need any judges or ref's? Not whinning or trying to be a poopy-head, just a thought!

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 10:49:44 (ZULU) 

For Steiner...
http://www.pioneer-research.com/

For Swarovski (it's waterproof, whole line is top quality)
http://www.swarovskioptik.com/hunting/sona_hst.htm

For Kowa, Very good, not waterproof
http://www.kowascope.com/

For Optolyth, (Water proof, probably the best around)
http://www.deutscheoptik.com/ (Optolyth)

The Military uses something call the "M49"... not available on the market new, and made by various makers under "Lowest bidder" contracts. Don't bother, the civilian market is about three light years ahead of the M49.
Camo them with a piece of camo cloth.

Al O...
The "Illuminated" reticle is the stuff that you have to shine a small flash light in the back of the eye piece for a few minutes, then the side bars glow for about 15-20 minutes, like a watch... this is NOT tritium. When you are "charging" your reticle, the opposition, with their night vision scopes will "LOVE YOU MAN"... so don't be disappointed.

Bolt...
Get back down in the basement!!! You've got more rings to do... I'm sending you 3 pairs of my MK4's to do, (I'm too tired).
Any of you guys own a 57 Caddy, stay the hell outta' of Winston-Salem, you'll loose your doors!!!
Bolt, contact Andy at Armaments Technology, (click the link in the artical written by Scott on shims in the "review" section).
Andy has 15 moa shims... though he's not making any more, so get'em now... he says "The demand for tarered shims has tapered off"... (I swear, he really said that to me two weeks ago!)
And listen, Bolt, you Poopy head, come on down to Carlos II... even if you come in three places behind last, YOU WIN!! This is gonna be the place to be, and you'll learn more in two days than a week anywhere else. And to sweeten the deal, I'll buy you a greasy ol' Bacon Cheeseburger, and whatever you want, to wash it down!

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 12:01:08 (ZULU) 

To Pablito and Bolt. ( and others...)

It took some time before you americans dicovered 30mm scopetubes.

How long will it take to discover scopes with mountingrails? :-)

Rifleactions with integral bases ain't too bad either.

JR:

Have you considered takedown-rifles with a regular scope mounted on the barrel like Browning .22 and Blaser R93. It works well with a very short action like the Rem mod.7. I've seen a takedown Rem7 with a Valmet doublerifle scopemount om the barrel. EAW makes a "Weaver"-base for the R93.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 12:47:40 (ZULU) 

http://www.magnumhansen.com/windeluxeoktagonal.htm

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 12:54:43 (ZULU) 

Jason: Kowa scopes are just excellent. If you go with them get the TS-611 or TS-612. They have a rubber exterior. They are not dunk-them-in-the-water Waterproof but they hold up well in normal rain. The area of concern is the eyepiece. It is a bayonet type mount and the interface is not tight enough to hold back water if the scope is submerged. BUT, this being America, someone already invented a fix. It is a small aluminum drum with an o-ring that screws right over the eyepiece. Seals it up good. This is very popular at high power matches where the Kowa is king. In a normal rain, you do not even need this, but if you are worried, it is a good fix. By the way, most of the non-water proof spotting scopes do dry out fairly easily. Fogging is the bigger issue. Then again, I have yet to observe any in the kowa. Another thing, most Competative Shooter supply houses offer padded spotting scope covers that actually slide over the entire unit, protecting it quite well. Check out Champions Choice, Sinclair, or others.

Bolt: Ain’t none of us Big Dawgs! We are all just normal guys with specific interests! Come and compete. Ask Fred Fisher how he did last year with his Sharps rifle. Even if he didn’t win, he had a blast trying! Do not let your skill level worry you. You will see a lot of styles and techniques at the match and you will see very experienced people screw up. I plan on it at least twice! Stress and the desire to win can make a normally calm and controlled shooter blow a simple thing. Your chances are as good as any because when it is all tallied up, the simple thing might be what separated the winner from the loser. Learn to range objects and judge wind. If you master those skills, you will blow everyone else out of the water. All other skills are just common sense. Think about it. You do not have to be a brainiac to observe and are for targets. All you have to be is observant. Nor do you have to be a rocket scientist to run a stress course. All you have to be able to do is run - a normal human practice - and shoot when you drop. Do not let all that Hollywood and TV bullshit mystique about snipers daunt you. The real ones are no more super human than us plain old practicing shooters or qualified folks. Do not fear them. Learn from them!

Never ever forget: You are attending this match to benefit Jo Hathcock. Even if you do not take home a trophy, you have done a good thing.

Besides, maybe one of us will get lucky and beat the Jar Heads this time around! Ya never know! ;-)

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 13:55:08 (ZULU) 

Have been working on a results sheet after firing several hundred rounds (almost) of VarGet loaded ammo using 168, 173, 175 and 178 .308 bullets. Short and sweet...44.0 grs (+ or - 0.2) in ANY of the above mentioned weights does great !! remember all the bullets I shoot are moly'd...out to 500 all groups under MOA...not loaded asheavy as suggested by Hodgdon but Very accurate !!

Scott(xring) Got package !! Also T-shirts are great !! THANKS

Bino's... have had & used Seiners for over 15 years...10x50 and 8x30...great ...both !! Still have !!

Out here !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Auburn, AL, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 14:09:49 (ZULU) 

I have a motorcycle roadrace the Carlos II weekend, and it's my season finale, plus my sniper-related skills are quite out of practice, but it does sound increasingly tempting & interesting, even if just to watch......

Brian

Brian Meyette <brian@turbont.net>
Cornish, NH, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 14:14:03 (ZULU) 

WHAT WAS THAT LOAD AGAIN...........?

nobody ever believes the Dude............Boo-Hoo

VARGET RULES, ESPECIALLY AT 44.0 GR!

CHAO!~
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 14:22:15 (ZULU) 

The developement begun in 1982 when the represantives of the competetive shooters of borderguard and army, namely border guard warrant officer Toro E. and major Ristolainen E., suggested the weapon technical department of the HQ that a dire need of both sniper and UIT "standard rifle" weapons could be remedied by developement of weapon that could be used for both of the tasks.

First prototype was built by Toro on m/91 action. It featured unique bedding bushing in front of action that freefloatd not only the barrel but the action and feeding device as well. The striker is shortened by removing the MN's clumsy safety device and the striker stroke was allso shortened to decrease the lock time with the previously mentioned modification. The trigger mechanism was a multiadjustable assembly that costs hairraising $200+.
stock was pretty much the same as the production modell with the adjustable ambidextrous cheeckrest excluding tubular storage unit in frontstock that held the cleaning equipment.
The bipod was different than the production type and the bullbarrel had sort of a muzzlebrake looking device that was supposed to prevent muzzleblast from throwing dust in the air.

Both Sako and Valmet received a request for proposal for a field test series but previous one didn't have suitable action for rimmed rounds or one that could be modified easily enough at the time so Valmet and m/91 action had the assignement.

30 of these field test units were made in 1983. Metal parts were manufactured in Valmet's factory of Tourula and proof fired in there. The stocks, bedding and assembly was carried out in Arsenal no.1 in Kuopio.

The final design was carried out by Warrant officer Toro (bushing bedding solution), Liutenant-colonel Aro K.(stock), Engineer-major Harhama M.(general technical and manufactorial solutions) and engineer Lith J. (final design of assessories).

The production series was ordered in summer '84 and was completely produced by spring of '85.

2/3 of the guns were of sniper configuration. the remaining 1/3 was modified to acomply "Standard rifle" specs. with unadjustable stock without bipod and with diopter sights and lighter barrel to make the 5.5kg weight limit. These units were provided with 2 stocks so that they could allso be converted into sniper role swiftly.
The production series m/85s didn't have the muzzle attachment or the storage unit for the cleaning equipement. Instead there was a storage pocket on the carryingbag for the necessary caboodle.

The scopes were ordered from MSW-Wetzlar and Schmidt & Bender in 4X36 configuration. Some were allso fitted with image intensifying sights by Siemens or Philips or some other german company.

More data can be found in "Military small arms in Finnland 1918-1988" Volume Two - Finnish weapons. by Markku Palokangas.
ISBN 951-25-0518-5 (volume II)
ISBN 951-25-0508-8 (All volumes)

From personal experience I can say that the gun is very pleasant to shoot and it is possible to engage chest size targets at range of 1/2 mile. I have never bench'ed one so I can't state anythang about the absolute accuracy but I have no doubts about it's potential.

I'm in process of building a replica of TAK m/85 out of my MN-actioned UIT 300m freerifle event gun :)

Gattling =;)

Gattling <uotinen@lut.fi>
Wilmanstrand, Finnland - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 14:44:35 (ZULU) 

Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 15:00:19 (ZULU) 

The VariX3 M1 Tactical is a great scope for all. Give me a few weeks and a review will be done. I just got all the specs. from Leupold yesterday.

JR: Janet is the best. I'm still counting my pennies. I might have to wait until all my court troubles with my ex are over.

Slings, first batch is sent off. If any of you dudes have expensive taste and have target type swivels on your rifles, I have that type of swivel in stock. They cost me alot more so the slings with target swivels will be $60.00. I am also working on an AR Sling, per that Old Dog's request.

Back to being Suzzy Sew. Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 15:21:13 (ZULU) 

thank you for your time
Scott Hannah

Scott Hannah <Hannah@slip.net>
Los Gatos, C.A., USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 16:54:41 (ZULU) 

@5-7.5% of what shoot on paper is lost some where between the muzzle and the target. (This doesn't translate to a good hit factor on varmints :( ).

Im shooting, well shot. lots #3.093.96.8870 and 1.024.96.8870, they 40grs. @4200fps according the box. I thought it was probably just due to the extreme speed.

Then in 55gr. Moly coats. I figured they would be better at a reasonable velocity of @3650fps. NOPE. Lot# 980008.

Did hornady sound interested in compensating for the bad bullets?
though my situation is different, this is a new gun and really am just trying to get some brass accumulated.

Matthew
Matthew Marx <mam@ra.msstate.edu>
MSU, MS, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 18:43:35 (ZULU) 

C'mon dude! Blow off the bike race! Help make this event top the last one. If for nothing else, it'll be interesting to see how all these friendly side matches turn out.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 18:47:46 (ZULU) 

I now have 25 bases made from the protos. Have tried them on everything but a Bushmaster, until today. Fidn't dit. Evidently needs some relief. Normal teething problems, but height, length, and hole pattern is similar to the "machine to fit" bases I've made for about fifteen years. The intent is a quality base for prone or bench with scopes that have long eye relief. There is a BIG difference in the mount length necessary for the two uses. The rear left portion is radiused the same as the M-70/M-700 for a Redfield, Central, or RPA type iron sight base used for highpower. This feature is probably of little interest to this board, but just an explanation that the mount offers no quick flip-up sight arrangement.

Mike M.,

The "Old Dog" just flew in here with one of your slings. Looks like a nice piece of kit! Makes me want to clean the mildew off the old leather coat. A private message will be coming your way.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SPRINKLING - SE, IL, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 19:02:36 (ZULU) 

DC8PLUMBER
Many thanks for info on fed. 168 and 175.

back to chipping more ice.

pokey
pokey <scottmt@fort-frances.lakeheadu.ca>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 20:25:09 (ZULU) 

Hope all is well with all.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 20:52:29 (ZULU) 

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 22:57:27 (ZULU) 

Bolt:

Once again I am in way over my head on the scope ring lapping biz, but what do youse guys use for a lap?? Maybe you should order a diamond hone, lol, the two hours of manual labor would justify the cost for me anyway(once again LOL)!!! I'm gonna have to check up on this. Oh by the way, if anyone needs torque requirements for base and ring screws for the Leopulds I forgot every damn one of em. AAh. No, I have the specs if anyone needs the info.

Pat:

I really hate to say this, but, and there will be detractors in the barrelmaking field, but the cause of your bullets goin' awry may be due to your 3 groove barrel. I don't know the groove/land width ratio of the 3 grooves but I do know that thin jackets hate wide lands. They rip 'em apart. Wide lands are better for cast bullets. When a customer lets me know he is using the thin jackets, I tend to lean toward at least a 75%/25% groove land ratio and more towards 80%/20%. That is all I have for now. Might consider that in your solution to the problem anyway.

TorF:

so to mount your scope on your barrel (takedowns) , you would have to drill and tap for this to work. Aaah, I don't like that. Anyway, i am getting the H-S takedown system(hopefully), don't know if you've seen it or not. If not go to the HS web site at hsprecision.com, it's kind of shite for a site, they really need to get some more pics instead of all the infobabble, but maybe that would give you an idea of what I'm talkin' about. I will probably go with varmint style t-d as opposed to the tactical takedown, varmint has 24" barrel tac has 26" barrel, but maybe I could squeak a few more inches and get away with it. I would also like to see it in single shot. Usually stiffer are the single shots. Well, that is all.
 

JR <m>
USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 22:59:47 (ZULU) 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 23:04:40 (ZULU) 

Any decent pruning snips from a good garden supply... to cut limbs out of the way, or to cut limbs to tie on to your ghillie.

"Is a wrist compass sufficent or do we need something to use with maps?"

I don't know... they just say "compass"... I would be prepared to use it with a map... one of the flat plastic "orienteering" types from the camping supplies stores should do.

"I need a hint. In the KIMS exercise, will we be studying objects,
photos and map overlays or all? This way I know how much gincoba or gintonic to start taking."

I don[t know for sure... I have the impression that it's 10 loose items on a table... Cartridge case, tools, pens, other items, but I might be wrong on this (and they won't tell you)... I'm afraid that gincoba or gintonic won't help me... I putting in for handicap/disablilty credits, I have terminal "CRS" desease.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
- Friday, April 09, 1999 at 00:34:34 (ZULU) 

Whoever was questioning prices of a Rem. PSS.
I bought a 24", .308 PSS, non-DM with a Leupold 3.5-10X Tactical for $925 in like new condition a couple of weeks ago at a gun show with a three week return guarantee. Got my Mark IV M3 10x mounted yesterday. Now all I need is some ammo to go test it this weekend.

Another question (or two)-
What is the recommended sling setup for this rifle? I was looking for a black Turner Saddlery sling. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
Does anyone make parkerized or matte 1.25" QD sling swivels?

Thanks again to all.
Glenn <reynog@att.net>
CS, CO, USA - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 02:34:55 (ZULU) 

I was offline for 10 days, but am sure glad to be back to get my SC fix

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 09:16:22 (ZULU) 

Glad you made it back from the Cannes Film Festival, INTACT, NOW ANSWER YOUR E-MAIL!

;-)

"ENDE-DUDE"

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 11:57:03 (ZULU) 

For all who aren't sure yet; lets flood Rod with so many willing participants that he'll have to close the entries. This is a good cause for a fine lady, in memory of a great Marine, let's make it a memorable event!

After much deliberation over what to shoot, looks like the return of the Sharps may be imminent. I'll learn you guys that cartridges may get old or even obsolete, but they can still ring the steel. Any of you ladies out there care to join Team Obsolete?

Now, if I can just figure out how to deal with my major respect for high places (ie: the tower)......
Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Rep. of, MD, USA - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 17:00:26 (ZULU) 

Pablito: Thanks for the heads up on the items. After all those classes at SMTC I guess the staging area must look like a desert from all the ghille pruning SNIPers.
Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 17:39:06 (ZULU) 

A turner sling is great for Service Rifle Comp. I think my sling is better for sniper style shooting.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 17:52:29 (ZULU) 

maybe you can clarify: What type of sling are you making? Is it a cuff sling meant only for shooting, or a modified 1907, or just a special carry sling, or what?

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Isacoldupdar, MN, USA - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 18:03:11 (ZULU) 

Thanx
Sgt. G <usmcsniper@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 19:35:10 (ZULU)

Thanx again.

Sgt. G
USA - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 23:57:02 (ZULU) 

Has anyone ever bedded bases and rings in lieu of lapping? Considering trying an experiment with FORM-A-THREAD or muffler repair stuff.

Did figure out how to motorize the lapping bar. My smith said he would mill the bar to fit a conveyor drive motor that I have. It's about 10 rpm with a hell of a torque.

Has anyone used Brownell's lapping paste? My smith said that the old compound was a mixture of course, medium and fine grit. The new mixture is only 800 grit. He said to try adding valve grinding compound and a little oil to the paste to help speed it up.

Grainger has three different inch/pound torque wrenches made by Proto. One is a 1/4" drive, 0-75"/#, dial. Sells for 166 without certs and 201 with certs. Snap-on also sells them.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 00:07:48 (ZULU) 

chuck

cdgunsmiths@eudoramail.com
chuck <cdgunsmiths@eudoramail.com>
USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 02:52:44 (ZULU) 

Thanks.
Zach <bbbkz>
Evans city, PA, USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 03:58:21 (ZULU) 

Thanks
Glenn <reynog@att.net>
CS, CO, USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 04:29:20 (ZULU) 

The scope is fastend to the mount with screws from the underside. In this case the mount is first fixed to the action. Then the scope is dropped into the mount ( like a 700 into a H&S-stock ) and the screws are accessed through the mag.well. Go to www.eaw.de and look at mounts for the Zeiss-rail and you get the picture.

To Bruce E, re. russian scope:

This is a difficult one. I've used several russian target-scopes on .22 rifles for years. The quality varies a lot. Lenses are usually OK but the mechanics and tubes can be terrible. I'd like to inspect this huntingscope before I bought it. If you can't inspect it don't buy it.
If you buy it put the scope in a rest and put pressure with your fingers on the w&e turrets and see if the internals/reticle move. If the POI changes send it back.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 08:21:00 (ZULU) 

I know you're out there "lurking" around the roster.
Drop me a line, will ya?
Out.

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 15:03:44 (ZULU) 

Also, does anyone have data on how much Moly will extend the barrel life of a .300 Mag (700 PS as an example)? I've always wanted a .300 Mag, but have shied away due to the shortened barrel life as compared to the .308

One last question - I can't remember where I read it (here, maybe?), do some brands of Moly coatings contain a substance which is harmful to barrels, particularly when using ammonia based cleaners? Any real life experience with "Ms. Moly" brand spray moly?

Thanks!!!
Rob <rsimmer@usa.net>
USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 16:54:14 (ZULU) 

The .308 will loose about 30 to 40 fps, per inch of barrel cut.
There are several handloading manuals that have tested this.
The range isn't reduced, you just point the barrel up a little more...

Does anyone have a good mailorder source for US made Alice-Pack stuff, not Chinese or Korean?

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 17:17:55 (ZULU) 

For Alice Pack

Sportsmans Guide has used large and small. I got a large one myself with frame. Good for hunting and hiking http://www.sportsmansguide.com/

Brigade Quartermasters has new pack.
http://www.actiongear.com/
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 17:46:57 (ZULU) 

If anyone has had any experience with Bruce Baer custom tapered bases for a SA M700 please elaborate-----??????..
Jamison <jamison@mscarriers.com>
Memphis, TN, USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 21:32:43 (ZULU) 

Bill,
I've had several postings on just such a method. Since you've said the forum is a little slow, I'll repost a couple.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bedding your scope into epoxy is a good way to solve several problems with rings and scopes. As you've found out, rings are not works of art. Well,....scopes are not either. My Leupold's are crooked because of the two piece design, the tubes are not necessarily 1.000" in dia. (mine vary from .999 - 1.002 or so. Some of the tubes are goose egged too. This is not from the pressure of the rings, but in the opposite direction. So bedding the scope gets rid of stresses that comes from clamping it on a receiver. Believe it or not the scope will actually put enough strain on a Remington action to move the barrel in the channel. Proved it to myself with dial indicators. If anyone wants to hear more about it, I'll dig back in the archives and find something. I had an article in P. S. magazine in the early '90s concerning this issue.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I do to my .308s that need elevation is to put a little epoxy in the front and back rings. I first determine the approximate thickness of epoxy needed and then cut little 1/4"x1/2" pieces of tape and put then into the rear ring. Stack them up until you have .xxx thousandths or so. They will be buried in epoxy, they're only purpose is to be spacers. Coat the scope with car wax and degrease the lower halves of the rings. Now put a 1/4" ball of your favorite bedding compound in each ring. Push the scope into epoxy firmly, paying attention to proper eye relief, and allow it to set up for a few hours. The epoxy should ooze up and bed the lower 1/3 of the scope. Later remove the scope and clean up the excess. Now you have a perfect fit, with hopefully much better zeroing capabilities and the scope will be lying in a non stressed condition. The top halves don't need any attention because they will float and adjust themselves to the scope tube.

Some people lap the rings and some bed them but most do nothing at all. For just general purpose shooting, I wouldn't do anything to those little jewels (MGWs sp?) you just purchased. However, if you are building a 600 or 1000 yard prone rifle and want to remove all the stresses of the receiver/scope interface then I would bed the lower halves of the rings with epoxy. It is removable and does not damage anything. Lapping is permanent. Once metal is removed it is damn hard to put it back on.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
buckeye, USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 21:33:18 (ZULU) 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 21:38:16 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 21:40:45 (ZULU) 

Jamison,
I've got the two-pc. Bear mounts as well and they work fine.
You can't go wrong with them & you'll LOVE'em at 1000+ yards.
Liston to Pablito. He knows what he's saying.

And speaking of Pablito......

"Thanks man!!!"

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Working double-time here, in IL., USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 22:45:53 (ZULU) 

Darrell: If you have a chance give me a call or I'll call you tomorrow evening.

Going to shoot some more bad guys on the Dukes of Hazzard (got Boss Hogg 4 times and fantasized about Daisy 12 times)

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Almost got out and Shot today but I didn't quite make it here in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 10, 1999 at 22:59:02 (ZULU) 

Glen sent me a good site for Mil stuff...
http://www.qm-supply.com/
New US issue at the prices others get for Korean junk... Thanks man!

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 00:11:57 (ZULU) 

Picked up some Loctite Form-A-Thread to repair stripped fishing reel screw holes. It will take up to 128 '/# of torque and 300 deg. F.

Looks like you could apply the release agent to the rings and scope, coat the bottom ring with the compound, torque to about 17"/#, clean the overrun, let it cure and finish torqing to 20"/#.
Also looks like you could align the base elevation the same way. You could apply the release agent to the receiver and the bases and follow the same procedure as above.

Still think it might be a good idea to run the lap over the rings a couple of times to remove the real bad stuff.

Gordahead and fire away!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 01:34:17 (ZULU) 

Al, I can't wait for the Binoculars. I have to design a case for my vest for them.

Darren, give me a call I have your small cuff ready and hell why ship when we can just meet and give me an excuse for to go to the range.

Everyone, I have a brand new McMillan A4 stock to review. Damm this is a nice stock. Almost done writting the review on the Leupold Tactical M1 Scope.

Lots of great equipment out there guys.

Everyone should have a MilDot Master and Slope Doper.

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 01:45:40 (ZULU) 

Al, I can't wait for the Binoculars. I have to design a case for my vest for them.

Darren, give me a call I have your small cuff ready and hell why ship when we can just meet and give me an excuse for to go to the range.

Everyone, I have a brand new McMillan A4 stock to review. Damm this is a nice stock. Almost done writting the review on the Leupold Tactical M1 Scope.

Lots of great equipment out there guys.

Everyone should have a MilDot Master and Slope Doper.

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 01:45:47 (ZULU) 

Re; 7.62x51/.308 Win.
Surely someone can answer my questions,or are they so rediculous as to not deserve one.

Re; Burris Pos-Align rings
Just read about these on their webpage looks like they would eliminate a whole host of problems not the least of which would be this ring lapping issue,and tapered bases.What about these are they so new that nobody has them or is there some inherent problem which is not obvious?
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 02:09:46 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 04:45:03 (ZULU) 

Fulton Armory has a FAQ answer on their website regarding .308 Winchester vs. 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition. It might answer your questions.  http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm

Steve:

Answer to your question regarding Russian coats: VERY TIGHTLY!  ;-)

L8R,

Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
TN, USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 06:15:13 (ZULU) 

The site that Rock listed  ( http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm )  has some interesting comments about headspace, though the figures are slightly different from my new set of ANSI/SAAMI (Z299.4) manuals... my set is 3 months old.
The article only talks about headspace, and that isn't the real difference between the .308, and 7.62. It's in the throat/leade area that the real differences exist.
The military stopped using heavy, round nosed bullets when they discontinued the Cal 30-'03 cartridge with it's 220 gr. round nose, and went to the Cal 30-'06, with the "new" spitzer bullet.
Military rifles are throated with a short throat, for sharp tapered bullets. Commercial 30 cal rifles are chambered so that they will accept long heavy round nosed bullets. The throat/leade is much longer... as you discover when you try to set your match 168's to touch the leade of your new PSS, and find the cartridge won't fit the magazine any more... the typical length will be 3.15" for a cart that has a SAAMI max oal of 2.810".

The makers of rifles like the PSS cannot assume that you won't take it bear hunting with 200 gr. round nosed bullets!

On the headspace thing... current max .308 chamber is 1.640 to the reference datum line, minimum cartridge is 1.627... that's 13 thou. of headspace, and still inside of Ansi/Saami acceptable limits. There is "HEADSPACE" (in capitals) and headspace (small letters, that we all have and live with).
If you get rifles that are cut with a "Nato" chamber, they will often come with a warning not to use commercial ammo... it is this throat/leade thing, not pressure or headspace that is the reason for the warning.
By the way, for the .308, current max working pressure is 52,000psi (copper), and max proof is 74,500psi (copper)

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 14:37:29 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 17:31:26 (ZULU) 

1) Make sure your pants are tucked in to your boots and tied loose.

2) Find a dry spot as out of the wind as possable - If there is snow build a wind break.

3) Remove arms from the sleaves of the well buttoned over coat.

4)Curl up on a ball inside of the coat tucking both ends in about your head and feet.

Keep mits and hat on - but make sure your scarf is loose and not over your face.

This is how we were taught in my grade 6 winter crafts course. It really did not much matter as none of us would be caught dead in anything other then a fashionable ski jacket ;-}

It works. at least for the 1 hour at -10 C that we tried it during the day and under supervision.

I have had no desire to try it for a night - but my teacher has done so and she said it's really comfy if your tired and misrable e'nuff!!

Take Care
Jiliyan
jiliyan <jiliyan@hotmail.com>
toronto, Ont., Canada - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 21:41:18 (ZULU) 

MWG Anti-Cant-Device?

SCOPLEVEL?

Ashley Aperture Rear Sight for Lever Actions?

Butler Creek Sunshades?

Sage International Shotgun Combat Sights for 870?

DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT FORGET THAT A RUGER 10/22 RECEIVER IS ALLOY AND NOT STEEL WHEN YOU ARE TIGHTENING LEUPOLD BASE SCREWS!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to drilling and tapping, the Bolt

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 23:54:02 (ZULU) 

> MWG Anti-Cant-Device?
Yup, very good, impossible to see when in shooting position!

>SCOPLEVEL?
Yup, Fragile, very easy to see when in shooting position!

On my long range rifles, I use both... I use the MWG to check that the Scopelevel hasn't been whacked out of alignment, but use the scopelevel to shoot.

>Butler Creek Sunshades?
Yup, darkens the view (a lot) and causes a fuzzyness to the image... turns yout $1000 Leupold into a 29.95 piece of junk... wanna' buy a few I'm not using?

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 00:11:35 (ZULU) 

good day,
Nikita
Nikita <mad.russian@eudoremail.com>
USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 00:34:36 (ZULU) 

What I need from the equipment is the ability to boresight effectively at 100 meters, and preferably a unit that is weatherproof.

Yes, I also believe in traditional zero-ing, but without a range nearby, I would like to be reasonably close to zero before I get to the range so I can spend more time on long shooting.

thanks in advance folks,

Andrew
adownie <adownie@interaccess.com>
six klicks from reality, IL, USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 04:52:17 (ZULU) 

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 05:14:46 (ZULU) 

Any comments on the virtue or otherwise of carrying the Remington M700
with a round chambered and action decocked with the safety off?

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Monday, April 12, 1999 at 06:17:30 (ZULU) 

dustpan <dustpan@handgunner.net>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 12:39:22 (ZULU) 

Ummmm...they go on the OBJECTIVE, not the ocular.

Rosco
Rosco Benson <roscobenson@earthlink.net>
Beavercreek, OH, USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 12:46:16 (ZULU) 

On the slings guys, I am informed that you can break the buckle if you use the sling for a rappeling strap, so don't. It is intended to shoot with and carry the rifle. Not pull your butts up a mountain.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 16:00:31 (ZULU) 

Pablito,
Thats and interesting post on the "Nato" chamber. I was always told
that a Nato chamber was a "Sloppy" chamber so it would take any type of ammo manufactured through out the world and to allow for dirt in combat conditions. I was having trouble with my M1A ruining my match brass(Pulling the cases in two) and figured that was the problem until I shot some new brass in it and miked it and it was not much off from the cases fired in my VS. I soon discovered that my old brass was just wore out and it really wasn't a big chamber after all, just to much stress on fireing it in the semi auto.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmial.com>
USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 16:25:19 (ZULU) 

I heard it was bungee jumping with the sling by some guy in Ohier,
GUESS WHO :-0 ?????

The Butler creek filters have pros and cons like any other bolt-on goody. GREAT for varmints, can be spray painted to hide objective tunnel effect for ground crawlers, but some ambient light is lost by virtue of design.

Roscoe, Un-Dude probably was referring to running his hand through the sewing machine again and blood loss taking its toll. ;-)
Keep them sling Rollin', Rollin', Rollin'! NO-hide!

ofta teach lookee, listen, feelie! Babs are you OK?, Can Ya hear me?
Goooooooooooooooooooood................ ;-V

peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 16:35:11 (ZULU) 

In all seriousness, I just don't see a big degradation of the view through the scope with a Sunshield in place. This is with Leupold Vari-X II's and III's. Perhaps the problem is more evident in the MK IV's and the high-dollar European glass.

Rosco
Rosco Benson <roscobenson@earthlink.net>
Beavercreek, OH, USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 18:39:32 (ZULU) 

Cavim Ammo. I knew a guy who loved it for his High power match ammo when he first go into the game - before he could afford the good stuff and before he knew for sure he’d stick with the game. It shot well enough out of his M1A but I do recall he had some loading problems with it. That turned out to be a user "headspace" issue as he was not setting his dies up properly. But like the man said, your gun is what it eats. I would not use this stuff in a sniper rifle. A old war horse type bolt maybe. But I prefer nice groups over cheap shooting.

Chuck, there is nothing wrong with the Savage you mention. We may "like" the feel and look, as well as the standardization of the Remington action more, but from what I have seen the Savage FP series is as accurate. It would make sense that their Varmint rigs are equally good, if not better, shooters. Don’t let the nay sayer’s sway you. I personally do not care for the Savage but it has more to do with the over all package, NOT the accuracy potential, which is quite good. Back me up here Stephan (our dutch sniper connection)! Stephan just out shot a load of PSS shooters with his new 110FP. I have seen the 110 shoot WELL below moa. Too many times for it to be a fluke. While unconventional, it is quite capable. The T-18 guy has one with which I shot a .30" group @ 100 yards. Surprised the heck out of me. It was a 7mm magnum and it was the FIRST group I ever fired with the thing. A custom sniper rifle will not be any more accurate. It might be tougher. It might last longer. Hell, it might even give you a woody looking at it, but it certainly will not shoot much better than that. Will the Savage last as long? Will it survive hard use in a field environment? No. But lets get real. You ain’t going to be there anyway - at least not if you are lucky! So go buy it and enjoy. The worst you’ll do is get it wet in a tactical competition. Custom rifles are awesome but unless you are using them in earnest they are more a novelty than a necessity.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 18:44:11 (ZULU) 

I have successfully used Brownell's bake on teflon finish on small parts. The first step is to get the parts clean. Use a strong and fresh de-greaser. The cured finish is very thin so the surface finish of the bare metal will show. Also, before the finish is baked it is VERY delicate, so handle carefully. If a portion of the uncured finish flakes off you can either just coat it or clean the piece using acetone (I think, it says on the can) and start over. Once its been baked it is very difficult to get off.

re the size of the available oven. If you do not have access to a clean pizza oven ask Brownell's for a copy of there newsletter that showed how to make an oven suitable for baking long parts. The oven is made out of a length of stove pipe and a couple of pie pans and some sand and sits on a burner/stove top. Also, they might have their newsletters on line now.

Dee Turner <71034.33@compuserve.com>
Sacramento, CA, USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 19:54:40 (ZULU) 

Again, this is off the top of my head...could be wrong:)

Old Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 22:42:09 (ZULU) 

For those who have a burning desire to know everything there is to know about chamber throats & leade and how to match bullets to leade angles, here is a good place to start. _(clickhere)_

For those who do not wish to be sued by Trigger50, it is not that hard to make you own ballistic charts. after reading this article you should have a good handle on how to do it. _(clickhere)_

I would also like to thank Jillian & Nikita for resopnding to my question about using a greatcoat for a sleeping bag. This question has been bugging me for a long time. I guessed that the sleeves were turned inside out, but I would have stuck the sleeves back thru the neck collar area of the coat to seal it off.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., OHio, USA - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 23:10:58 (ZULU) 

I realize all guns are different and what is the cats meow in one is dog doo in another. Any other gents shoot these ol guns for fun and have a pet load? I would love to hear it.
Thanks
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 00:10:14 (ZULU) 

If a person writes something new they do not have to have it registered at the copyright office (though it helps in a civil case in fine line suits). In short right or wrong it is HIS property and nobody can copy it period.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

I use the above but I make no legal representation on this matter and I suggest anyone interested seek competent legal advice from a member of the bar.

:-) <:-)@:-)>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 00:23:57 (ZULU) 

You take the low road and I'll take the high road, we'll meet together in the morning....Sumpin like that.

Gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 02:51:00 (ZULU) 

I think that's all.

Out
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 03:17:00 (ZULU) 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 03:40:01 (ZULU) 

Mike M. It wasn't me that tried to bungee jump with your sling. Don't listen to peteR. He's probably an attorney trying to stir up more shit ! Admit it peteR, are you the devious, amoral, unscrupulous, armpit of humanity? Even the more reaason to outshoot your butt at Storm Mountain. You know I was 12 years old before I realized that "F**Kin' lawyer" was two words. Oh well!

Have a good evening!

Say Good Night peteR

Good Night peteR!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaosapowicz@nls.net>
Readin' and Contempaltin' here in the Greening State of , Ohier, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 03:40:30 (ZULU) 

Do you know what affect the sight height over the bore has in calculating the flight path of a given load ?

You Do ! Well then which sight height do you use with a forward canted mount ?? Where the reticle is ? or the Objective or even Ocular ???

The programs calculate the LOS to LOD angle to figure the drop, but what do they come up with in a angled mount?

any clues ?

Thanks

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 10:49:06 (ZULU) 

OOPS I appear to have been cut off so if this appears twice - sorry!

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 12:18:12 (ZULU) 

and believe it or not somewheres I have a copy of duelling laws and regulations buried in with my Law Books.

Chao!

Gooch,
Impressive, simple posts, as usual!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 12:44:57 (ZULU) 

Ballistic Programs !
> The effect of sight height can easily be seen using Ballistic Explorer's multiple independent traces. Setup the same load and conditions in two or three traces and then change just the sight height. Then click on either the Examine or Graph window and compare the paths. Because the angel at which the LOS and LOD converge is so small, the sight height can be assumed to be the center line of the scope's Optics regardless of the mounting system. If absolute precision is needed and assuming the scope can focus at the muzzle's distance, a scale can be attached at the muzzle and viewed through the scope to get an actual reading of the sight height at the muzzle, which is the true value. The difference between a sight height based on the center of the Optics and a sight height based on an actual reading at the muzzle is expected to be so small as to be of no
consequence.

...................

Now if I have a sight height (center of Objective over center of Bore) at the Objective center of 51 mm and my base is sloped forward at 1mm drop every 85 mm and I have 520 mm of barrel left from the objective to the muzzle then I should have a sight height of 45 mm at the muzzle ???? Right ?

But that still does not account for the extra angle I get from the canted mount or does it ???

enlighten me please ?

"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
to close to the south eastern front, in, Germany - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 13:17:54 (ZULU) 

Gooch, I have to say that I am very surprised that this trick was not already IN your toolbox, since it has been a part of US sniper training/technique since sometime around WW II, and in the world since around WW I. They must have eliminated it sometime after the VN war, as it seems to be new to so many people now. (Everyone should get lots of books and find out what the old guys used! Chances are, their techniques are still relevant.)

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls (Buy a vowel), MN, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 13:44:17 (ZULU) 

The more lawyers we get, the more you will see common sense law go out the window. For every good one that graduates (and there are many!) there are a dozen who are lower than dirt. Just look at Philadelphia…The Mayor alone is one of the biggest schiesters I have ever seen "grace" the TV. Because of him, you can expect to see the gun industry die a slow death of asinine litigation. It started with suing the cigarette cartels and it won’t stop until "society" can have its pound of flash on ever single "sin" they can make up. You think your favorite rifle is expensive now? Well, with the tobacco suits going on nationwide and the politicians lining up with their collective hands out, you can bet the precedent has been set to attack the gun industry next. The mindset is there and it has all ready started. When it is all said and done, LAWYERs did this to you. They made it possible. They even encouraged it. What Stalin and Hitler and the democratic party failed to do, some slick shit in an Armani suit will do for the greed of it all. Ed Rendell (mayor of Philly) is licking his nasty chops with the plum hope of getting money for his city via the gun industry. So much for personal responsibility and common sense. As in all things legal, blame someone else. I am patently anti-cigarette. I do not do it. I hate it! But the labels have been out there since the 60s’. If you chose to smoke and you die, tough shit on you Dumb Ass. Starting smoking is a personal choice. Quitting is will power. Don’t let these idiots sue that industry. Scream about it. Why? Because it is the first big step in attacking your favorite hobby. Shooting. After all, guns kill just like cigarettes so lets sue the manufacturers. Fuzzy logic? You got it.
But I digress. Sorry.

Data books. Do yourselves a favor. Go buy a ballistic program and make your own. There are some great books on the market. Some better than others. One soon to be released is quite good indeed and everyone ought to have it. But people, with the current number of programs available you can tailor a book for your area, elevation, average temp and just about any load combination you can imagine. I certainly agree that a purchased book can be an excellent choice. But if you want one made for you, your rifle, and your area of ops, do it yourself. If you are reading these words you have the means to do it. It does not take rocket science or special knowledge. It takes a computer, a program, a printer and a will to make it. Ballistic data is ballistic data. Ain’t no one that can sue you over physics. The rest is all filler to make your life easy. Target pages, temp records, what ever. A good book has it all, but the knowledge ain’t special. Decide what you need to record based on your experience and that of many others, then go make your own. Modify it as you go and as you learn. When a new book comes out, evaluate it and if it does a better job, buy it. At least making your own gives you the opportunity to experiment and learn what you really need and what is crap. That way when something special comes along you’ll be buying it for a REASON. Not just because it looks tits.

I have ranted enough today. I try to keep politics out of this place but it gets tougher every after reading the headlines. Clancy had it totally right in his book Executive Orders. Give congress Farmers, Doctors, Mechanics, GUN SMITHS, Small business men, and other "plain" folk. Keep the lawyers at home where they can not create any more law. We have 200 years worth as it is and anything else is either redundant or ill advised for the long term health of the nation and its freedom. Simplify!

Am I pissing some of you off? Good. It’ll make you think the next time you vote.

I now return you to the normal broadcast. Let the un-political Roster reign again.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 14:20:06 (ZULU) 

Thank you Marius for giving us a place to post our ideas and I hope I am not stepping on anybody's toes when I post a link to my or others sites.

Bill M
Bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 14:21:00 (ZULU) 

Well said my man.

Dean

Trigger50
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 14:47:24 (ZULU) 

I would be happy to discuss any of the stuff you want by private email, or hell, stop by. I don't keep anything [address included] a secret. Since I think it is impossible to change most people's opinions, I don't try. I will say this though...on gun control, gun litigation, ammo bans, etc., look a little deeper. Are lawyers the root of that particular evil? Hmmm. No doubt they were walking with the folks that were / are, but dig deeper. A hint: Follow the money. Who stands to profit by a ban on importation of foreign guns / ammo? Now you are on the right track.

Btw, it has been my policy since the day I passed the bar that I would defend any high school teacher that put the board to the backside of a male high school student that needed it for discipline; any cop that took a bad guy out in a gunfight that later got sued; as well as many other categories of clients...for free. Sharp fangs, Al O?...you bet your ass. Oh, even told a gun maker [the name I can't reveal] that if it wanted to actually do what needed done, as opposed to following the lemmings over the hill, I would do so for nothing more than my out of pocket money. It chose to go a different route...one that I wish it great luck with.

Stereotyping is no damned good boys...although it is completely within your rights as a free American to do.

Take Care All, [even you Al O:)]

Bruce [Old Dog]

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 15:08:48 (ZULU) 

Lawyers: They are like cops. No one likes them until they need one.

The talk of destructive testing of my sling: It was not an evil person who found that if you used similar to a climbing strap the buckle would break. It was a friend, a lawyer, who wanted to ake sure some Turnip'd I.Q.'D Troll didn't sue me because of a flaw in my system. He found that it would not fail under shooting or carry conditions. He just went to extremes to find the failing point. The buckle which I don't manufacture failed with over 200lbs jumping against it. I did not design the sling for that. I could use a buckle that whould hold up to that abuse but the end result would no longer be a sling.

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 15:16:06 (ZULU) 

NO REFLECTION ON YOU SIR! and you're dead on with "labeling"

THE SHOOTERS SOLIDARITY LEAGUE!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 15:20:24 (ZULU) 

On creating your own data tables using computer software - are there any ballistic programs available on CD-ROM that are "better" than others? I haven't checked out any of the stuff available and would like to know if someone's software stands out as being superior, a better value for the money, etc.. Or are the ballistic programs available out there all pretty much the same?
Gary <GSX1166@hotmail.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 15:33:34 (ZULU) 

Torsten,
You quit "Screwing" with our minds and get out there and shoot it and see(HA)

Gooch,
Glad to see your alive and well, I was ready to take up a collection to pay for the ransom, I thought maybe you had been kidnapped!! We miss your words of wit and wisdom. Now lets see maybe we could use the ransom money to find out where Jeff has Barb hid??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 16:40:07 (ZULU) 

Now for some good news, I went out of town this weekend and happened to flip on the tv in my room and seen a documentary segment on LE Swat and sniper combinations. They showed a little about training and comradere in the teams and a little focus on the Sniper in as good a light as possible by telling how they are alone but work with the teams. I wish I had I had a guide for that day to find out what was on to see but in a strange city with different channels than I get I don't even think it would help. But I thought I would let you know :)

Bill M
Bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 17:18:18 (ZULU) 

GHILLIE SUITS, to go.

I stopped in a Army store today on the way home (Army/Navy, and Gun stores have huge magnets in their parking lots, to attract 4WD trucks)...

Anyway, got two Ghillie Suit kits for $60 bucks each, not junk mind you, but the real kit... 8 colors of cut and stripped burlap, netting, the whole banana, same as in a $500 commercial suit, but you still have to do the work... it saves you scrunging around in garbage cans for the stuff, and has instructions for the sewing impared... and tells you how to make a two sided suit for different seasons.

(Al O. The have a special model with the cutest curly white wool!)

Since Marius doesn't want us to list companies on the Roster, drop me an e-mail, and I'll give you the skinny... may do a write up, if they don't look too bad when I mess them up.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 18:42:09 (ZULU) 

Regarding the SWAT show you saw, if you limit to only national channels, it depends on which day it was. The Discovery Channel had an episode of Discovery Sunday entitled 'SWAT Team' on Sunday at 2000 E/P and The Learning Channel had an episode of Real Live, Real Heroes entitled 'Police Force' on Saturday, same times, that dealt primarily with a New Jersey SWAT/SRT group.

Keep an eye on your listings. These have been broadcast before and should be up again soon. I'm not sure which one, but one of them will be shown again next Sunday, I believe. Of course, it could be the Saturday one again, the way my memory works sometimes. Haven't go time right now to get back into the listings. IAC, DSC has a web site with all the broadcast schedules.

Later all.

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Suprisingly Sunny Oakland, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 19:34:31 (ZULU) 

Ballistics tables are generalizations based on computer models in standard conditions. They are just like wind charts, only SWAGS. Better than nothing if you don't have a lot of data, but still only SWAGS. I like to use them for making comparisons between known loads i.e. load "X" is supposed to have 29 minutes of drop at 700 yards and my normal ammunition is supposed to have 27 moa of drop by the same computer program. My actual 700 yard zero is 7 plus 1 on my M3 or 30 minutes on a target turret. If I have to shoot load "X" at 700 without live fire data I will use 7 plus 3 or 32 moa on a target turret. Is that clear as mud?

Andre, What manuals listed the reverse image technique? I have the a 1917 War College report on Rifle Training for Trench Warfare, a 1932 Dept of War Rifle marksmanship Series including the one on Musketry, a 1942 British Manual titled Fieldcraft, Sniping and Intelligence, the 1944 Army FM 21-75 Scouting, Patrolling and Sniping, a 1944 USMC Handout on Application of Fire, the original(1977 anyway)Quantico SSIS lesson plans and none of them mention the reverse image zero. I was taught the same way the Vietnam snipers were on the Redfield 3x9 using a 600 yard zero and holding off but I've never had anyone teach the method mentioned. You got a specific reference? I usually don't like teaching something if I don't have a reference.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 20:13:34 (ZULU) 

Thanks, Glenn
Glenn <reynog@att.net>
CS, CO, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 23:05:56 (ZULU) 

As for the issue on firearms and tobacco lawsuits. . . its too late, there have already been several lawsuits instigated upon several handgun manufacturers in some states. They are getting sued for the excessive violence and murders inflicted by their handguns. The states claim that the company's distribution policies are not strict enough. It is pretty much a bunch of BS out of hell, just like the tobacco lawsuit. I don't know how things turned out, but I find that in order to enjoy my life, It is best to focus on the things that please me, like shooting. Henry David Thoreau's novel "Walden" (please excuse the quotes) thrives on the basic idea to "Simplify. Simplify." The Supreme Court needs to make this book a required reading among its justices. The Constition that was framed over 200 years ago and consisted of 10 basic amendments has now turned into a complicated mess of loopholes, laws, rights, and civil violations that can be stretched and applied to any case. This guarantees success to nearly all the lawsuits that are brought up.

I don't mean to be a pest taking up SC's forum space, but the point is that society is disintegrating whether we like it or not. Enjoy what you can while you can, I make sure I never go to bed at night with regrets about what I did during the day. This is a good sniping forum, and it would be neat to see that this is one place that is not corrupted by the traits of greed and ignorance that are spawning in today's society.

Carpe Diem

Dan
Dan Gleeson <desdichado19@hotmail.com>
DE, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 00:53:17 (ZULU) 

Been keeping busy, so this is the first time I've been on the roster for quite a while. Trying to read up on what I missed. From the little I've read I see that we have some legal quarrels going on. I can't understand this, I thought knowledge was something to share with everyone, just an opinion I guess.

Mr. Robinson,
I'll send you a report on the mil-dot master soon.

Gooch,
Tested trigger's technique and it worked well as long as we were firing on a flat range with no angle to the target, but once any slope was present it severely limited the range of this technique. Like you said "one more tool", but I still prefer knowing EXACTLY where my round is going to hit.

Trigger,
Any answers to the "slope" problem of this technique.

Torsten,
Going to be in your neck of the woods next week for a few days, drop me a line, maybe we can drink a couple brewskis and swap stories.

Will Adams,
Still need to get with you about that Hornady TAP ammo, I don't have your email address anymore, so contact me if you are still interested.

Later,

SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
FT. Benning, GA, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 01:03:47 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 01:49:30 (ZULU) 

TIA
Glenn <reynog@att.net>
CS, CO, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 02:22:44 (ZULU) 

ALL;
Sure wish you fellers would go back to shootin' cause your messin' with my learnin' curve.
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 02:43:22 (ZULU) 

Steve. There is nothing newfangled about the Reverse Image Theory except the name. It has been thought of before and called different names. Basically the theory is that the rise of a bullet will strike a target at an unknown range before it returns to zero. Basically you are doubling the height of your target and aiming at its feet. If you are zeroed with a .308 at 750 yards and your target is a person 70" tall aiming at the targets feet will give you a disabling shot with the most shots placed in mortal wound zone from 0 to 750 yards with a kill zone at 300 (or so) out to about 650. You see, you're only concerned about bullet rise above line of sight, not below it as in a dead zero taught by our military basic infantry courses. This seems to be a solid foundation when it comes to multible targets when time doesn't permit you to change settings on your scope for different ranges. No it is not an accurate pinpoint calculation, rather a damage assesing shot but when the SHtF and you got alot of enemy approaching your position fast its a viable method I would think. Its not better than hold over or hold under on targets of varius ranges because you don't have to stop and think about about each shot held on a targets chest or belt buckle or over his head, rather its just another piece of equiptment to be utilized for the right purpose (not all shooting situations ie: sloping conditions, trajectory going out of the range of your targets height, etc).

Bill M
Bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 02:59:21 (ZULU) 

Mike (the UnDude): I'm still enjoying your sling and no I will not try bungee jumping with. The over 200 lbs limit - its close, but I'm a little heavier than that. Still a great creation and I am still impressed.

peteR: Sah, satisfaction will be mine. Ewe have besmertched the name of AL and ewe will have pay. Dinner and Vengence is mine sayeth AL

Scott: Good post about lawyers here in the US. I should not have made such a general statement saying that they are all dredges of society. The correct statement should have been: Most of them are! I'm sure there has to be a few good ones out there.

Have a good evening everyone!

al

Chow baby!
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Southeast of Lawyer City in , Ohier, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 03:08:20 (ZULU) 

Gooch--
Thanks for the invite for the Oct. Hathcock match- I'm really gonna try but we're due for our first addition to the family on Apr. 29--I might be busy just being Daddy for a while.

Pablito--
got the Baer bases today-- Now I gotta find a set of MWG rings to top 'em off. Thanks for the info.

OUT
Jamison <jamisonl@mscarriers.com>
Memphis, TN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 03:37:23 (ZULU) 

Just found your site, I must say it looks good. I am a complete newcomer to this game. In fact I am looking to purchase my first "real" (7mm or bigger) rifle in the near future. I purchased a Savage 110FP in .223 because I had a flinching problem I wanted to learn to overcome, and figured a nice heavy .223 was just the ticket. That done I am looking to move on.

Here is my question to all you who seem to know this stuff : I am having a difficult time deciding what to get. The ubiquitous Rem. 700 seems to be an obvious choice, but what is your experience with some others. For example, I notice Springfield has a limited offering of "Israeli Defense Force, M14 Sniper rifles", or how about a "National Match" M1A? What kind of group sizes could a guy expect from a rifle like one of these? What are the pros and cons of a semi-auto as a snipers rifle? (both function/accuracy & tactical) I seem to see very little about "other" bolt guns (with the exception of the Win 70 & in this discussion group, the Savage) like the Browning etc. is there a reason for this? Are they not as well suited in some way?

I am, as I said very new, no training. None of the military branches wanted a guy with 20:20 vision in one eye, and 0:0 in the other (trust me, I tried). I am VERY interested in learning all I can. Anyone live near Omaha, Ne that might be willing to teach a new dog old tricks?

TIA,
Louis
Louis <friday@tconl.com>
Omaha, Ne, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 06:42:03 (ZULU) 

......................

There you have it, now back to making more Ammo !

"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 09:58:53 (ZULU) 

I ran a small string through the top two rivets and can hang it around my neck now, big deal !
With the string going through the pivot eylet I can now make a quick loop insert a 7,62X51 and have a plumb weight for my angle measuring.

I still carry a Slope doper for the precise angles, also it presents less of a reflecting surface for sunlight in the field.

Four drops of Shoe Goo on the back of the sliding insert keep it from dropping out when hanging around my neck.

Done deal

"Ende"

Torsten <ya know>
Germany - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 11:17:34 (ZULU) 

Save-a-buck Bolt, out

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 11:44:37 (ZULU) 

I AM IMPRESSED with the Mil-Dot Master tips! good show!

chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 12:42:30 (ZULU) 

In my opinion, the Reverse Image technique, and point blank shooting, are nothing more than types of holdoff shooting. Point blank shooting tends to be employed by hunters, while reverse image was employed by military shooters/snipers in the arlier part of this century. They are all related techniques. (I know that point blank shooting is not, technically, a "holdoff," but it comes directly from the same idea)

Each of these techniques, along with the more recent holdoff techniques used in VN, derive from the idea that a given round has a given path through the sky. The idea is to know that path, and use that path to your advantage to allow shots to be made when neccessary without exact sight on or ranging. Obviously each of them require a certain level of knowledge of range, but the idea is that if you don't have to hit an egg-sized target, then you don't need to aim like you do.

My expression of surprise that Gooch didn't already have this technique in his toolbox was more because I was surprised that the various ballistic aiming techniques wouldn't already be familier to him. Obviously, it turned out he does know some of them, but the reverse image this was what was actually new to him, and unlike me (perhaps), he does not consider all the ballistic aiming techniques to be simply variations on a theme.

Part of my confusion probably stems from my rememberance of the original argument. I recall that when Trigger brought up the technique, and various ones of us went back and forth about it and similar techniques, that two deffinate camps formed: One group was willing to try it, the other was adamant that they wanted to be sighted right on every time they made a shot. Fair enough. My recollection of those two viewpoints made me react in surprise when an accomplished shooter remarks that it really does work. That reaction made it sound like Gooch was new to the concept. That surprised me. Anyway, I just wanted to clear this up so that I don't seem like I'm slamming Gooch.

BTW, I think that ballistic aiming is one of the interesting differences between a police sniper and a military one. A police sniper will tend to make exacting shots at shorter ranges, while a military sniper will be able to make shots out to long ranges, and some shots may have no need for point-on accuracy. Military and police shooting are really two different genres in many ways (and as was covered here recently, require two different types of equipment and techniques).

Anyway, just to clear that up...

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 13:18:54 (ZULU) 

Josh,
I use the dual dove tail mounts by Leupold and they work great!! strong enough for tactical shooting and cheaper than the Mark IVs. The only disadvantage over the Mark IVs that I can see is you cant take the scope off with out a rezero so the choice would be yours. Just my opinion for what its worth.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 13:36:25 (ZULU) 

Nuff said. I really do not want to turn this into a debate on occupation choices. Back to the evil gun stuff! ;-)
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 15:30:19 (ZULU) 

Of course most of this is unneeded anyway if you are using a M3 or Unertl type scope with a BDC as it only takes a second to dial on elevation. Add in to this the snipers mission being to engage KEY targets not just every Tango on the battlefield. Even in defensive fire situations a sniper team should be selecting those targets which will do the most damage to the enemy (snipers, leaders, communicators, crew served weapons, etc.) or lay down the SWS and grab a M60 and sling lead with the rest of D'boyz. If its only the sniper team, one guy is launching with his M16/M203 and the other better be on the hook calling for support, looking for a way out, heaving smoke/frags, have his pistol out, etc. An SWS in a fire fight, unless we are talking about an SR-25 type system isn't the best choice in my opinion unless its use the SWS or throw rocks or break out the K-bar. It would be nice if both snipers in a team could carry an assault type weapon in addition to the teams SWS but weight is a bitch.

Any of you by gawd slotted military guys do something other than the Observer toting an M203 and a pistol with the sniper carrying an SWS and a pistol as per the FM's? I know we always thought that the Sniper could carry the SWS in a Drag bag and carry an M4 or an MP5SD or someshit. But the weight issue was a problem.

Oh well, back to the grind stone. Developing another mini-manual for SMTC. This time its TACTICAL CARBINE! I'm getting sucked into the monitor...

Semper gumby lads.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 16:15:04 (ZULU) 

Today's stupid questions: What is the difference between a regular and a "bull" barrel? Is s.s worth the extra $ over 4140 steel?

What is the difference between High Power matches and DCM/Service rifle matches?

Why am I asking these questions? To determine which upper (flat-top or A2) to select to build a 20" AR-15 of course! If anything goes, I'd like to be able to convert a flat-top for service rifle use with the handle, but I don't think this is allowed. I understand the scope-mount for the flat-top is preferable via. Sniper-Country articles written by Sr. Powers. The point is to build the most flexibility into the first rifle. Your comments are appreciated!
C. Ross
CA, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 16:16:42 (ZULU) 

Once your barrel breaks in, you can then usually switch away from Sweets as the copper fouling will not be so great as to require it. I usually use Hoppes #9 for the carbon, dry patch, follow up with Shooters Choice, dry patch, finish off with Hoppes again, just to get out any hidden remaining Shooters Choice. Dry and oil. Using this latter method, I also employ JB bore paste about every 100 to 150 rounds. My barrel does not foul like it first did and this latter method seems plenty aggressive enough to keep the copper out.

As I stated above, I think the big issue with Sweets came about as a result of the BR crowd. I know a few who used to recommend mixing cleaning agents on a single patch thinking that they’d get twice the work done per pass. When their rifling started going the way of the dino, they blamed it on the most aggressive agent on their bench; Sweets. I have used this stuff on my Chrome-moly barrels for years with out any negative results, but I am careful not to over expose the barrel to any ammonia bearing product for too long. I do not know if it is a problem in a Stainless bore, but I have hear there are issues.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 16:36:31 (ZULU) 

Lu: Just about any of the rifles you mention will work. Define your budget and work from there. The 700 series are a good place to start but the Savage works well too, for less. Everyone here knows I am not a great fan of the M1A (cost to much for what you get, among other things) but it certainly will work for you. Expect .8" to 1.5" moa with it. It may even do better, but it will seldom match a bolt gun for consistent accuracy unless it has had some major work done. That is mainly why I am not a fan. By the time you are done modifying it to true match specs, you could have bought a top of the line factory bolt rifle, scope, mounts, scope, and a case of beer. Also, the more you modify it the more sensitive it "may" become to hard knocks.

Lets go about this methodically: What is your perceived use? What is your budget? What is the average local conditions in which you will use it?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 16:45:36 (ZULU) 

Bruce [probably just plain "Dog" now:) ]
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 16:57:17 (ZULU) 

Anyway, don't some units use snipers as part of thier base security or are they like Cpl Burke and just pick up the m-16? Not to be a smart ass about it but I really would like to know if thier rifles in camp are just issued rifles and not the specialized sniper rifles. The reason I ask cause if so it would seem that the snipers mission is two parts (key targets and providing security possibly on multible targets).

Bill M
Bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 17:08:29 (ZULU) 

SS verus 4140. Toss a coin. Stick your finger in the air. The short answer is…depends. They both turn out some astounding groups in the right rifle. Ron N? What say you buddy? I am still debating this one in my own mind. So far all I can come up with is that SS will last a bit longer in a crappy environment, but not that much longer if not maintained. For accuracy I do not "think" it makes a difference one way or the other.

High Power vs. DCM/Service rifle.

Same gear. High Power you shoot 88 rounds. That is 8 sighters and 80 rounds for record. In DCM you fire 50 rounds. I can not recall if there is sighter. T-18? You do that thang a lot don’t you? Other than the round count the matches are essentially the same. The involved a percentage of rounds fire from standing, sitting rapid, prone rapid, and prone slow fire. Both can be shot on reduced ranges to simulate far targets.
To get into either you will need the following:
AR15A2, or M1A or M1 Garand. Heck, you can even use a P-14, P-17, or Enfield for that matter.
Shooting jacket (use an M-65 field coat till you can afford a good jacket.) Wear a few sweat shirts under it to stiffen it up.
Spotting scope and stand. Beg or borrow one at the match till you can buy one. This is a must.
Shooter stool. This is nice mostly because you cram all your other crap in it.
Dope/record book.
Shooting mat. Not necessary but nice.
Poncho to go over it all, stored in stool. Expect RAIN!
Sling. Turner Leather is good but an old MRT will work.
Ammo holder for 20 rounds (for standing slow fire)
Mags, pen, pencil, ear protection, glasses, ammo box.

You can get by with less. I started off with nothing more than the rifle and the jacket.

Flexibility. Here is the rub. If you want a top notch competition rifle, it is better to have a dedicated UPPER just for this. Get the A2 upper, a DCM legal free float tube, an Olympic or Kreiger or brand X NON-CHROME lined heavy Barrel, and a Match rear sight marked for MOA. This is the best simple set up for the AR competition rifle. You can get by with any old complete AR15A2 upper but you will not be getting the same accuracy level. It’ll still be good though. Do it all in spurts. You can always add the float tube later. Build an A2 with a good barrel. Stick a match sight on it and add the float tube at the end of the season after you have saved up for it.

This fact is this: if you want a Compton Service rifle you have to play by the rules of the game. That means no exposed float tubes, micrometer sights, or bloop tubes. BUT, you are in luck. You can build what is called a space gun and use it right next to the guys with the service rifles. You are then put in the MATCH rifle class. These things are more like varmint rigs. Flat top uppers, micrometer sights, bloop tube extension on the barrel to increase the sight radius. Skeletal stocks, ad nauseam. A good simple match rifle would have a flat top, a float tube, a standard lower, and a micrometer sight. But you could even your detachable carry handle on the flat top if you wanted. In match rifle you can go with a heavier barrel. The normal H-bar is about 1" at the chamber and tapers to normal after the front sight post. A bull barrel on a match rifle can be a straight taper all the way out if you stick a new gas block on it in place of the front sight housing. This will cost you though as you’ll need to add an after market globe type front sight if money is the issue, just make a Match rifle with a stock H-bar barrel over a round float tube, using the mil front sight and detachable handle. It’ll get you into the game and be versatile for you other varmint shooting games.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 17:13:03 (ZULU) 

The heavy bbls have a couple of advantages: They dissapate heat quicker (because of the larger surface area) and they flex less (helping accuracy). The accuracy thing is probably most important for your purposes in Highpower Competition.

Regarding "Service Rifles" vs other rifles, here's the basic idea: Servicemen & women must compete with a service rifle. Generally these are accurized versions of regular issue weapons. Prohibited are such things as compensators, special apeture sights, custom handguards, etc. The rifles must be stock, but with some allowed alterations (such as heavier bbls and maybe even floating. Civilians MAY compete with "Service Rifles," or they may compete with match or over the course rifles (such as a bolt gun with Lyman sights). The advantage of a Service rifle is that only service rifle shooters can compete to become "Distinguished Riflemen" a title which involves the accumulation of so many points in a particular way. Not to be confused with the "Most Improved" trophy in bolwing. With a regular match rifle, you can compete, but not aquire points to "go distinguished" so, many (most?) civilian highpower competitors shoot service rifles for this reason.

What this means to you is that if you are considering Highpower competition, you will need to decide whether you want to compete in a service rifle class or not. If so, you will need to make sure that your chosen weapon is legal for that class. That is why you see some AR-15s, for example, that a called DCM legal, or whatever.

You might want to aquire Randolph Constantine's book about Highpower competition from Precision Shooting mag ((860) 645-8776), it will tell you most everything you need to know about Highpower.

That's the basic details, I'm not a competitor myself so if I have any minor errors, don't sue me :-)

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 17:15:38 (ZULU) 

now I KNOW that you're BRITISH!

;-)

cHAO OLD CHAP!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 17:31:01 (ZULU) 

Just reread my high power post. God but my typing BLOWS.

To all, I am going off-line for a few days to fix some things. Enjoy the site and try not to break anything!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 18:58:57 (ZULU) 

Bill, I really can't say for certain what others are doing but I can tell you what the prevailing attitude in my unit (IA Nat Guard) is. Maybe this will indirectly answer your question. First I should mention that the snipers are incorporated into the Recon Platoon which is attached to Bn HQ. The headshed doesn't know right now if they should make 3rd squad the sniper squad (3, 2 man teams) or put one team into each squad. Our strenght is only about 60-70% of what it should be so that prevents us from organizing the platoon to make 1st 2nd and 3rd squads recon and 4th the snipers.

Not surprisingly most SNCO's and Officers (not to include my Plt leader - I'm trying to "learn" him) haven't the faintest idea of how to utilize snipers. They seem to getting their employment doctrine from TV, the movies and other popular myths. Sadly a prevalant attitude is that you are to pull regular recon missions nearly all of the time and only act as a sniper if you havn't anything better to do. "Sweep and mop the armory and if their is time left over then you can get the rifles out."
I wonder why they won't give me a straight answer when I ask them if they expect me to conduct squad patrols with my ghillie in my ruck, M-24 slung and carrying a M-16/203.

Someone previously mentioned "tools in the tool bag", and the snipers and their equipment are not even seeing the light of day. I did some checking around with the LRS unit (Long Range Surveilance) located in DesMoine IA and the other Recon Plt in the State. I learned that LRS has no sniper slots and the other Recon Plt has no trained snipers although they had just sent two individuals to the school. Those individuals were sent back to their unit in the first few days due to the fact that they didn't have a high enough GT score. Result, two slots wasted.
Several active duty snipers I have talked to mentioned that they are being incorporated into their Recon Plts as well, but that may not be Army wide. Any active duty guys care to comment??

Are there any other National Guard snipers out there that can comment on what their units are doing or who would care to drop me a line so we can compare notes? I really need some info to use as ammuntion to bring get my unit to face reality and fix the sad state of affairs its currently in. You know, sort of like, "Look so and so in such and such state are doing this this and this. Why can't we do the same?"

It may just be my experience with the units in this area, but I have a sneaking suspicion that unless we (in the Guard) pull together that we will eventually disappear.
C Caspers <DeltaVKPS@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 21:10:21 (ZULU) 

Oh well....
It off to fight the good fight...
"BUMP!"
(hitting wall)
"BUMP!"
"BUMP!"
"BUMP!"
"BUMP..."

C Caspers <DeltaVKPS@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 21:41:43 (ZULU) 

Dan:

Muzzle breaks affect accuracy immensely when you forget your muffs. Wow, are they loud!!! Usually have to turn the skull hugger around so it doesn't fly off the melon.

Bruce, the man!!:

I agree that lawyers in general are not the root of the evil in cases which involve the desecration of the 2nd amendment of our Bill of Rights, but there are a few that will screw the system for the sake of money. But they are few. Who we gun owners have to take a closer look at is the MEDIA!! The media reaches each and every one of us each day. Those who are not as well informed about firearms see GUNS as the cause of the atrocities of man today. The media plays on these people, who happen to appear on juries, who then in turn place HUGE punitive damages on gun companies and simply put them out of business. I do think we need tort reform in that aspect, but basically what we proud gun owners need to do is to work with the lawyers and politicians and find/make/buy a forum which the WHOLE of America can access. NRA can say whatever they want in Outdoor Life, American Hunter or other publications dealing with hunting or firearms, but the everyday non-gun owner does not usually have a subscription. Cable television. It's tapped to the heart of America. Not some Sunday afternoon TNN Outdoor's special about two hicks goin' out to shoot some 'possum, but 7 days a week, in your face, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU CHOOSE TO GIVE UP YOUR 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!! Kosovo is a great example. They could just show clips over and over of the refugees fleeing their homeland. THIS COULD BE YOU!!!! What makes me laugh is the people who promote GIVING arms to the KLA is the same bunch who is trying to strip us of ours. I could go on and on but I shan't.

Hey!!

still waiting on some news from 300 Ultra Mag users!! Anyone home??

Varget users:

Hey, I'm tryin to make a push for H-S to start using Varget in their loads. Gimme somethin' that'll make 'em salivate and jump on the Varget train. Also, whatdya think about that Vita Vihtuori??

I have spoken, and it is so

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 23:29:00 (ZULU) 

You know those Drug Prevention commercials, 'this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs', with the egg? Well, for guns, use something like "this is your country, this is your country without the 2nd amendment" and show the 'fugees and the atrocities of governmental warfare waged on people who can not defend themselves. Over and over and over. Dammit people, that is a relatively civilized industrial European community. It could happen here. And it has. Waco.

and out

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 23:52:53 (ZULU) 

Gentlemen. You owe it to yourself to get a 1903A3 rifle and do some
recreational shooting. What a weapon. Absolutly the most fun you can have and still be clothed. When the mil-dots and range tables start to blurr together give yourself a treat and do some "fun" shooting.

Take care
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 00:47:18 (ZULU) 

UNIT ATTEN-SHUN DISMISSED

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 01:08:47 (ZULU) 

Do you get mad when you're compared to cold blooded killers that use guns? It only takes one person to give a whole group a bad name. What lawyers do is to help people, just like doctors, police, and teachers. As long as there are dishonest people out there, we will need lawyers to protect and help us. Lawyers help more people than harm. Most lawyers charge an honest price for their time and are proud to help the little guy. Lawyers have done more to keep the little guy from being a victim than any other profession. Yes there are bad lawyers out there, just as there are bad gun owners.

DCM/CMP matches are for service rifles. High Power matches include service rifles and match rifles(bolt action). To be an offical CMP club you must have at least one 80 round match. I shoot reduced target matches because our range is only 200yards. I have only shot one 50 round match and sighters were the same as an 80 rounder. A detachable handle AR15 may not be DCM legal. The rifle must be externally the same as a standard issued millitary rifle.

CJ
CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
new castle, de, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 01:24:09 (ZULU) 

I have been hitting on this website for nine months, I have
reaped much benefit from these visits. I have to say that in
my humble belief the site is deteriorating in quality.

So shoot me, sue me, but think about it.

There is evident bad blood between certain individuals and
this causes debate to degenerate to less than jovial cyber-stalks.
Individuals may choose to take supporting sides in these
arguements , camaraderie is great and mateship a virtue.
But the net effect (if you will pardon the pun) is to create
further division amongst SC regulars.

I dont have a bottle of snakeoil on me, but I suggest the
most realistic remedy is simply to keep emotional and para-
legal threats and responses off-line between the specific
protagonists.

I respect you all, including those I disagree with, after all
knowledge and wisdom dont exclusively reside with my friends.

cheers and best regards to all.

darryl

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Attitude, Oz - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 01:26:50 (ZULU) 

I just plugged the computer back in to let you know the Sniper Country PX will now be carrying Olympic Arms AR15 barrels and components. I just got the acceptance call and wanted to share the news. I have used their barrels exclusively for a few years now and have had very good luck. My current tube prints in the .3"s and that is what prompted me to pursue this account. I wanted to offer these things as I felt they are a very good option for the competition and varmint shooter. I'll keep the prices VERY competitive. I'll have more details next week.

If any of you are interested in building an AR please feel free to contact me no matter where you get your kits. These things are a love of mine and I enjoy talking shop. I do not care if you buy from the PX or not. If you have a question, please ask. Some of you have an interest in getting started in High Power. Bug me next week and I will try to write a short article on how to go about it. BYOR!

Well that is all. I really have to pull this computer apart and get some hardware fixed. Have a good weekend!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 01:41:57 (ZULU) 

Sarge and Darryl,

Very well said!!!

Dan
Dan Gleeson <desdichado19@hotmail.com>
DE, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 01:43:09 (ZULU) 

MikeM: Snuck out and shot a little using that Quick Cuff Sling you make today...I liked it before I tried it, now, it is not for sale. Seriously fine piece of equipment. Thanks for the super product. Btw, guys, if you don't have 2 or 3 of these things yet get on it! Not only is it a great product, but Mike is good people.

JR: I agree with you. Having gotten several punitive verdicts in the past though I can tell you...they don't come easy. Let me know when you wanna get on the ad campaign...be a great thing for H&S to do, no? Anytime I can help let me know.

On the Trigger posts...I will respect Sarge's desire to keep a ramble off the list. I will say this...Dean, like everyone else on this list has always tried to point me to true north on questions of shooting. He had my money on some gun work long enough to cut and run if he was going to. Got the stuff today, with a note of apology for the delay...also included some work that he did for nothing, and it is top notch. Anyway, that is all on that.

Thanks all,

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 01:43:10 (ZULU) 

Dan
Dan Gleeson <desdichado19@hotmail.com>
DE, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 01:58:11 (ZULU) 

Now to my ? I have a 7mm Wby semi-custom hunting rifle (MK V action, tuned, Wby med. contour barrel, cyro-ed, KDF, shortened to 23", bedded Pacific Research camo stock, trigger job, 2.5 X 10 Swarovski scope. After numerious visits to range and chrono of rounds, the 160 FS with 66.6 of Rl22 groups about 3/8 at 100, but really goes down hill at 300 - 350. Don't know if it's me or the .386 ballistic coefficient of the non-boat tail round dying when it starts reaching out. Tried different powder charges but it ethier gets worst or even more worst. Looking for something for Caribou out to 600. Have had some luck with Nosler 160 partitions using H1000, but only slightly less than 1" at 100 yds. Appears similar to the FS 160 at 300. (about 4"). Any suggestions on loads for 600? Or, how can we keep it to 8" out to 600 with 160FS and different powders. Tried H4831, Imr7828, RL19. No luck. Or maybe even a different bullet for the intended game. Any help appreciated. Thanks....

Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 03:27:09 (ZULU) 

Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 03:42:18 (ZULU) 

i THINK YOUR BARREL IS TOO SHORT AND YOU SENDING PROPELLANT GASSES INTO THE ATMOSPHERE WITHOUT ACCELERATING THE PROJECTILE.
bUT I'm probably wrong!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY TIRED CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 04:13:38 (ZULU) 

I would like to share my experience with Sweets.Heretofore, I would clean with regular solvent,dry the bore,then swab it with sweets and let it dissolve the copper for 15min. or so,push it out with a patch,reswab etc.In some bores,this could take hours!Then I read an article by highpower champion David Tubb, in which he explained how he removes copper from his matchgrade bores."To do that you'll need a specialized cleaner like Sweets 7.62 solvent.I use a one caliber oversize brass brush(7mm brush for a 6.5 bore,for instance).I liberally drench the brush with Sweets every other time it exits the muzzle.I have brushed some barrels 60-plus strokes in order to remove the fouling.Finish with 2-3 patches.Now,Sweets tends to eat up brass brushes;however,my method is considerably faster than letting the cleaner soak,and, I believe,lessens any chance for barrel damage from doing so." Awhile back ,In precision shooting,they were discussing possible barrel damage from ammonia based solvents.The consensus of the experts was that only by mixing ammonia based solvent with cleaners containing chloride,thereby creating a corrosive salt,could a bore be damaged.It was also mentioned,that regular rubbing alchohol would neutralize Sweets.I now use a variation of Mr.Tubbs method.I clean the powder fouling out using regular bore sovent,2 dry patches,saturate a brass brush with Sweets,push it through the bore,saturate again before pulling it back through,then I add more Sweets at the muzzle every third stroke.After about 20 strokes I push a couple of alchohol soaked patches through,then a couple of dry patches,followed by an oiled patch.I then rinse off my brass brush with alchohol.This method is fast and very effective,and it doesn't eat up the brush.Hope it works for you as well as it has for me.

Jerry B.
Jerry B. <bartran@montana.com>
MT, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 05:20:42 (ZULU) 

mjsheehan@verio.com
mick <mjsheehan@verio.com>
Bay Area, CA, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 05:38:18 (ZULU) 

Hello,
I wanted to set the record straight on something that happened on this forum this last week. I posted a note under the name :-) not having much of an imagination for pen names. In that post i made reference to copyright law and suggested 2 web pages that would tend to support my theseis that your writing is indeed NOT public domain even when aired publicly or put on the internet. These resources were:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
I still stand by this assertion, but noting now that a real lawyer is present I'll defer to him.

I made note of this because I was concerned that some of the individuals on this list might read what I believe and opine to be false information and get themselves in hot water. We have enough bad press as firearms enthusiasts and I wanted to aleviate any more.

I did NOT post the copyright info because I sided with someone known as Trigger, or against Pablito or others. My intent was to inform not to stir the shit and cause strife among people that should be working toward the same ends.

I am posting this note because I don't feel it fair to blame someone for my actions.

I have read this site for several weeks now and have tried to glean as much onfo as I could from it before diving into this part of the shooting scene with both feet. I had hoped to post some questions once I had enough background not to look like a complete ass. I could really use the help but I shall refrain from doing that because it seems that 1 - I have caused enough trouble and 2 - I really dont feel like being flamed for some silly misstatement or offending one of the cliques.

Anyhow, my apologies for any turmoil.
FNGten
USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 06:19:56 (ZULU) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Weatherby City in , Ohio, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 06:55:20 (ZULU) 

Personally, I think if you have something to ask, ask it. Just try to keep it on subject (or at least per the norm). I would much rather a new shooter ASK the "stupid" questions, then sit next to him on the range when he sweeps my head with his loaded gun because his scope came loose.

Regarding the "cliques" around here: I'd like to think that they don't really exist. After all we're all mature adults (not the kind on Melrose Place) and we don't need to make ourselves more important by excluding everyone who disagrees with us do we? You've apologized and that should be good enough. If people really object to you being here because of that, then maybe the nut behind THEIR trigger needs adjusting.

Ask your relevant questions if you'd like. Someone will try to answer them. The only stupid question is the one not asked.

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 12:50:08 (ZULU) 

Hey man if you got questions, this is the place for answers. As for the copyright thing, you were just trying to help. There is so much ballistic info out there, I'm just glad I'm not trying copyright some of it.
PenNames? Hey just use your real first name and Last Initial. I mostly just "Lurk" in the background. Lots of good discussion here. I enjoy it a bunch. Thanks, Marius, and Scott.

BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 13:03:45 (ZULU) 

Ain't no cliques here, we are all shooters, and we are all on a broad learning curve with a shared interest in sharpshooting.
By all means read, Lurk, and post any questions, they will be answered. Well if anyone has an answer.

just don't slur, or verbally assault anyones skills, or intelligence,
unless its in jest.

This get back to the "cutesy names", and lack of return e-mail addresses and my comments about them.

gotta run

chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 13:12:43 (ZULU) 

Jr,
You need to tell your load boys to run a few loads of Varget across the cronograph and compare it to the other powders they use. Its very clean burning and very consistant as far as ES and SD goes. The one thing I have noticed is that when shooting at long range with it in the 308 and the 260 esp. that I have very little vertical spread in my groups. I think that this is due to the consistant loads with the Varget.

FNG,
If you really are interested in long range shooting I hope you don't leave this sight because you think someone may have taken your post wrong. We have all been there and its hard to always have what you wrote come across the way "You" ment for it to come across. As far as asking "Dumb" questions, as and instructor I always told my students that the only dumb question was the one that went unasked or answered, so stick around and ask away, we may not all agree with one another and sometimes we "DO" take sides and argue with one another but we all share the same love and there is a wealth of knowledge here.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 13:35:33 (ZULU) 

Back to slings

The UnDude
Mike M <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 14:30:44 (ZULU) 

If your AR has a detachable carry handle you can't shoot it in a CMP match. Only service rifles (or their clones) are allowed. You can use it in a NRA Highpower match. These matches are divided into Service Rifle and Match Rifle classes. Your AR falls into the Match Rifle class. ---Jim
Jim Rawcliffe <JR600YDS@aol.com>
Miami, FL, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 14:35:36 (ZULU) 

Can anyone give me the phone number for Hoplite in Kentucky? I want to order my ammo for SMTC in June, but I don't have the number!

Thanks!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 15:44:54 (ZULU) 

So here's my question: How does one establish a zero at ranges greater than 100 yards ? At 100 yds I'd just use my 100 yd zero target. But I want to zero at 300 yds. I'm probably missing something basic.

Thanks for your help
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 16:22:58 (ZULU) 

There are a couple of ways to zero at 300 yards, but they may involve things you don't have:

1). Actually go to a 300 yard range and zero your rifle. This is obviously the best way, as there is no substitute for actually doing. But if you don't HAVE a range w/ 300 yard line, this would be out.

2). Another way that is sometimes used requires you to know the ballistics of your cartridge. If you can predict, for example, that your 100 yard zero should be 8" higher than your 300 yard zero, then you can zero at 100, adjust your scope 8 minutes up, reset the dials to zero at that new setting if possible, and you are now approximately zeroed at 300 yards. This will bring you surprisingly close, provided you have the required ballistics, and your loads are consistant.

Otherwise, barring the above (1 is the preferred method), you probably can't zero your rifle properly except at 100 or 500 yards. You can make some educated guesses based on generalities, but the fact is that the only way to truely zero a rifle at a given range is to SHOOT the rifle at that range. Anything else, while close, is still a good guess at best.

I don't know how they do things there, but I imagine that when you go to SMTC you should be able to get a good set of zero values on your rifle before it actually counts.

Maybe someone else has another idea?

Semper Fi,

André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 16:52:54 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 19:31:41 (ZULU) 

Can anyone recommend an effective muzzle brake that does not reduce muzzle velocity? My old bones just can't take the thumping my .300 WinMag dishes out any longer. By the by, the brake would be going on a Sendero with the nonfluted barrel. I don't know if the model makes any difference or not. Thanks in advance for your replies.
Will
USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 21:59:56 (ZULU) 

sorry about the rant there, guys, this is not the place for it, but I hated to see Ol' Dog Bruce's profession gettin bashed. Not the forum for that type of discussion is SC. I agree. No mo politico from me.

Hey!!

thanks for the e-mails and posts on the Vah-get, they will be of help. More info is appreciated. The more I know about this stuff, the more I like it, and the more I like it, the better the chance that we will be adding it to our supply of propellants. I still wanna know some more on the Vita Vihtuori also, I hear you can get some good velocities. Which actually hurts accuracy in many cases.

Oh, I remember someone posting on the 300 win mag, that it doesn't last too long, 1000-1300 rds or somethin like that. Well, on that note I will also let you know that cut-rifled barrels tend to last longer than button or hammerforged barrels. Reasons? for one the stresses incurred during rifling process, but the main reason is that button barrels and hammerforged have to be lapped and lapped and lapped to finish bore size, whereas cut rifled barrels cut the rifling to size and lap the bore significantly less than the aforementioned. Lapping your barrel just decreases the barrel life, metal on metal, your'e gettin rid of some bore. And one last thing, with cut rifling there is no stress on the lands, the lands are the part of the rifling which DRIVE the bullet to the destination. Yeah, you know this. Anyway, if you can find a good cut rifled barrel, nice clean bore and smooth grooves, it will take you further than any Hart or Shilen barrel could ever think of.

take it easy,

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 23:10:32 (ZULU) 

Will; there are many "breaks" KDF makes one that doesn't affect your accuracy much and really reduces the recoil. It will absolutely drive your ears crazy. You see all that noise comes right back at you. Brownells or a good gun smith can obtain and install it for you. Emphasis on "good". The tuning breaks such as the Browning BOSS is also a good way to go. You can also purchase a straight through that will help tune your rifle and not bother your ears. You may notice some difference in your impact point when changing from the BOSS regular to the one with no holes. The one with no Holes will not reduce your recoil but will help your groups.
JR; Yes maybe the barrel is a little short lived but it's a real dandy rifle. Ah love the .300 win mag. I sold mine the other day to a good friend that is younger and bolder but it was a great piece of work. (700 rem sendero).

23" 7mm Weatherby magnum is a bit on the short side for that kind of rifle. I'm the cutter king of Kansas when it comes to barrels but the 7mm should be 26" to realize the benefit of it. But if your not hitting where you want at 600 yards it's probably not due to the barrel length. That is not a real accurate cartridge as a rule but it is an excellent 300 yard big game cartridge.

B.rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 00:34:48 (ZULU) 

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

CT
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 00:40:44 (ZULU) 

Yeh, it's hell on the ears. Or so I'm told, I always use muffs and plugs.

Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Texas Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 01:21:10 (ZULU) 

How is the dust signature with the Magnaport when you fire the rifle prone?

Chao

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 01:29:37 (ZULU) 

Pat II
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 02:38:39 (ZULU) 

The YP800 is quite a bit better. With a little practice, you can get good ranges out to 600-700 yards on bushes. A very steady hold helps, as does holding down the Fire button and panning the laser around looking for the best target indicator response. The little square aiming point is about the size of the beam at that distance, but the center of the beam may not be in the center of the box. The beam from both is quite visible to NVG's. You can't see the trace in the air unless it's foggy or raining, but if you are down range you can spot the origin as much as 25 degrees off axis. Pretty well matched for the best range of a .308Win.. The next best unit is the XLR from NAIT at $1895, it'll get you a solid 2000 yards. Of course, for those of you having bottomless wallets, the Leica Vector can give you range to 6km for three targets, continuous range on moving targets, height, width and angle to target, bearing in mils, degrees or gons, and with a Rockwell GPS and cable, the coodinates of the target. All this for a mere $7500. Can you say "Fire mission, over"?

Anyway, a highly useful piece of equipment. Set up ranges for practice sessions, confirm your mil dot readings (or a students). In your hide, you can get a precise range to a target of unknown size to convert for future mil readings. Nice field tool for making long base line measurments for triangulation of extream ranges. At the price, no sniper should be without one.

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

CT

(PS. No, I don't work for Bushnell)
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 02:47:14 (ZULU) 

In the active Army (conventional), we have snipers in both the mechanized and light Infantry Battalions. In a light Infantry Battalion ther are 6 snipers, three sniper teams, assigned to the Scout Platoon. In the mechanized Infantry there are eight snipers, four sniper teams with each company being assigned one team. There are pros and cons of both setups the light Infantry TO&E seems to work better for several reasons. Taking that into consideration, many mech battalions are now combining all of their sniper teams into one squad at the battalion level.

Regarding the comment about the two snipers not being enrolled into the US Army Sniper School because their GT scores were too low. All personnel who attend this course are supposed to meet the prerequisites, if we do not enforce this, who knows what kind of soldiers will be trained. A low GT score does not mean that a soldier is stupid or cannot learn, but it is the only way the Army has to measure a soldiers intelligence level. Just think if we let that one prerequisite go, what would be next, the psych eval, I hope it never comes to that. I would blame the loss of slots on your Battalion Schools NCO and your chain of command, the prereq's are posted on the sniper schools home page, and any unit who does not have access to this can call the school, we would be happy to fax them a prereq sheet.

Hope this helps.

Later,

SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning, GA, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 03:11:15 (ZULU) 

Watch 6
MAXX
MAXX <shooter01@hotmail.com>
near Blue Eye, Arkansas, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 05:39:25 (ZULU) 

Remington have issued a 'new' M700 police. Apparently Remington
think so much of this site they took notice of the short barrel
debate and now produce a M700 'lite'.

It is the M700 Light Tactical Rifle in .308 with a 20inch fluted
barrel.

1in 12 twist with 12degree crown.

Weight 7.5 pounds (whats that for us in metric countries?)

There is a write-up in "Guns and Weapons For Law Enforcement"
magazine.

The thinking is that for police sniper distances a shorter,lighter waepon is equally suitable. The test write-up published sub-MOA results.

...........

Movie: The Negotiator

Police snipers may like to comment on the fracturing of glass/
simultaneous shot by the police sniper. I thought as special effects and police tactics it was great, I hadnt seen it before.

gone shooting

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Australia - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 07:02:14 (ZULU) 

Bolt OUT
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 12:18:57 (ZULU) 

GREAT ARTICLE ON CRYO, cut right through the bullshit!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 13:40:38 (ZULU) 

Hammerforged Barrel need Lapping ??????

Never heard of that nor have I seen SIG, Sauer & Sohn, Heym, Delcour, Parker Hale and for Button rifleing L Walther lap the barrels after they leave the forge !

The common process is to drill, lap, and then hammerforge. Why would they want to use a smaller die to lap to a finish diameter ?

I understand your in this business, but I have never seen the above Manufacturers lap their blanks after forging ? Maybe they do it on the weekend ?

Must be like the myth that polygonal pistol barrels cant shoot lead bullets ??

Also I know that the forging process actally increases the density of the steels surface and that a hammerforged barrel´s bore when cut open shines like a dimond in a goats ass. No lapping !

Feed Me !

"Ende"

Torsten <Lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 13:44:27 (ZULU) 

PS

Rheinmetall also hammerforges the MG 3 barrels, lots of them, and they dont lap after forging eather.

I can hear the lawn mower scratching on the garage door !

Torsten <ya know>
G-3 land - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 13:51:47 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 14:58:36 (ZULU) 

Thanks guys.

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Still here, in IL., USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 15:25:58 (ZULU) 

D. West
USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 15:33:51 (ZULU) 

100 to 200 + 2 MOA
200 to 300 + 3 MOA (5 MOA over 100 yds)
300 to 600 + 11 MOA (16 MOA over 100)
600 to 800 + 11 MOA (27 MOA over 100)
800 to 900 + 6 MOA (33 MOA over 100)
900 to 1000 + 6 MOA (39 MOA over 100)
Jim Rawcliffe <JR600YDS@aol.com>
Miami, FL, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 15:51:11 (ZULU) 

Quick cuff slings
Where is the review.........? Show us some pictures Mike, PLEASE.

Back to lurking
Mark D.
Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 19:06:27 (ZULU) 

Thanks for your reply to my post. I guess I didn't explain myself to clearly in that post regarding the guys who got sent back from sniper school due to their low GT scores. By all means I agree that the requirements for the individual to have a certain level of inteligence are needed. What I neglected to mention is that my frustration was not with them getting sent back it was with them going in the first place. The unit should never have sent them and it should have pulled the requirements off of the ATARS (spelling?) system. Its there, I've seen it. Its annoying to have (my) unit administrator tell me that there are no slots to send any of my guys only to hear that another unit wasted two slots due to sheer stupidity.

One question for you though, are the requirements that are listed in the ATARS system different than the ones that your school has down?

Thanks,
CC
C Caspers <DeltaVKPS@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Ne, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 19:19:56 (ZULU) 

Slings: Now Gooch and Scott are the ones working on the Sling Review. Don't you think it might not be right for me to review my own sling? Ask them what they think. Bye the way I am glad you guys want the slings, but I don't sell retail. Please contact Storm Mountain, The PX or TRGT for the slings and photos should be available soon. I have said this before and I will say it again. I am not going to compete with the guys that are selling for me. They all have expended money and believe in my slings. I could undersell them and never be able to look myself in the mirror again. So please don't ask me. I am running out of nice ways to say it. They all sell them for $50.00 plus shipping. All three owners are great guys.

The tired sling maker Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 20:49:26 (ZULU) 

I am not sure exactly what ATTRS has stated for the prerequisites for our course. I know the prereq's are listed on Sniper Schools home page. If you want to, print it out, and give it to whoever makes the decisions in your unit.

The address is:

http://www-benning.army.mil/fbhome/29THINF/SNCRSPRE.HTM

Later,

SSG CADY
FT Benning, GA, USA - Friday, April 16, 1999 at 22:17:46 (ZULU) 

Mike D, just got your message off the duty roster. Will give you a call this weekend about the cuff and a time/date to shoot. Looking forward to that.

Darren...
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, Ca, USA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 03:04:40 (ZULU) 

Firstly, I'd like to congratulate Dave et al on a very well written, intuitive site. It's a responsible credit to the gun-appreciating (dare I say loving) community, unlike a lot of the more gun-ho rubbish out there.

Now, I'm not one to trust my sources of information, books, magazines, etc very much at all. From what I gathered a few years ago in my reading, it was a general rule that bolt-action rifles were the weapon of choice for serious sniping, since they were marginally more accurate/consistant (which, needless to say, means a lot in the field). I would like, however, to get some words from the mouth of the horse. Would you say that this was true within the last few years (I'm sure it was true before semi-autos, etc became a more exact science), and is it true today?

Well, that's the main thing I've been wanting to ask those in the know for many, many years. An answer on the matter would be great, an E-mail and/or further links on the matter would be great also.

Yours behind that leaf yonder,
Benesato.................
Benesato <benesato@connexus.net.au>
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 04:52:45 (ZULU) 

The process I have seen so far is that you start out with a blank of about double the diameter but half the length of the finished barrel, or barrel blank.

You then drill a hole close to the size of the groove diameter of the finished caliber and ream/ lap that to a finsh.

Then the short stubby blank goes into the hammerforge, a maschine about the size of two pickups, but four times the weight. In this forge that looks a little like a monster lathe anywere from three to five exentrical disks(hammers) hammer/squeeze the short stubby blank around the "nut" which is a negative slug of your final bore profile that is held in the area of the hammers impact onto the bore.

This is done at room temperature and the blank is cooled with water/coolant.

Result is a barrel that is about double the lenghth of the blank and has a mirror finish on the inside.

Some manufacturers of military rifles also hammerforge the chamber along with the rifleing in order to give a uniform surface density to the overall barrel.

I have had Heym make hunderds of blanks for me and I´m sure I still have a end piece of a blank somewhere that shows the large diameter hole and then the start of the hammerforging. I´ll see if I can zap some pics in the future.

Time to go shooting on a sunny Saturtday morning !

"Ende"

Torsten <Lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 06:22:19 (ZULU) 

Springfield Armoury now boast that their production M25 will
outshoot boltguns for accuracy. Go laugh!

This is apparently the result of the US DoD mission specific contract sniper rifle. Just the ducks nuts for those pesky varments that
wont stand still and be shot.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 07:23:18 (ZULU) 

I know that it would be best to just go ahead and camo it & leave it, but for me to aim any other spray paint at it, well.... it's kinda like given yourself a shot in the ass. I just can't do it.

NURSE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm just afraid of making one big mess out of it.

Maybe before the end of the June courses you could do me a custom "Mr. Gooch special" paint job?

Darren,
Thanks man. I can pick up a needed thing or two else from them. At least I know where to get it from.

Ugly rifles shoot better......
Is that like ugly women make better cooks, or better lovers?
I heard something like that........ ;-)

Outta-here!

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Forgot how to post at the Roster, in IL., USA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 07:34:07 (ZULU) 

James
James Craig <hunt@frontieradventures.com>
WY, USA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 08:21:37 (ZULU) 

Hello there from god's country. I have been reading the "duty roster" for a few weeks now... and it is great. But I gotta say, lose the politics.

Do any of ya'll come up here and shoot? hunt? or compete?

Sorry, but I gotta say it, the Hathcock shoot is just about the greatest thing I ever heard of. Got his book years ago, never met the man,,, will regret that forever.

So endeth the sermon.

Oh Yeah, I smith on the side, used to blue, and really enjoy the tech talk, not the crap walk.

Sean T. <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
up north, B.C., CANADA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 08:34:23 (ZULU) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Pensively Contempalting Darrell's Remarks in Chilly, O-hi-er, USA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 10:04:28 (ZULU) 

My big thing of painting my rifle is I don't want to leave it with a bad paint job.
Ok, pratice would make perfict, but I've never painted anything other than riot Rem. 870's
I'm sure that it's the same, but I ain't no painter.
And what do I know about painting #&$* rifles????

Burlap around a rifle?
didn't we cover this stuff once before?
Well, I'm not to keen of the idea of messing with barrel vibrations, warp, shift, etc...
I don't mind that it gets painted, it's just I want to be able to
clean up after a mistake if necessary.

I don't care if Gooch paints it, Rod paints it, Basso pisses on it,
If it works, I'm good to go. Move on to next problem....

D. West <westforcezzzzZZZZZ@juno?.com>
Over-times killing me, in IL., USA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 12:32:34 (ZULU) 

Mike Lau´s Book says something in the order of 0.465 for a G5 BC for the M 118.

I have checked my load today and have a V 1 of 792 M.Sec = 2600 ft.Sec. and a V 300 of 640 M.Sec. = 2100 ft.sec. I did have a funny feeling shooting over my crony at 300 Meters, but no risk no gain.

Now with the above punched into my Ballistic Explorer it gives me a G5 BC of only 0.347 or G 1 of 0.549 respectively.

Seems pretty low and is totaly of what Lau published. But the tables trak my load right on the money now.

Any Info from you other M118 users ? Gooch ???

"Ende"

time to clean the ugly bang stick

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 13:16:03 (ZULU) 

Who let the sheep out of the bag!??? Gooch? Depity? Rod?

Well guess I gotta tell,

Al, I was going to make SURE that exactly that happened to you and Darrell-Darrell.

I even found a quaint little town just across the mountain for ya called "Shanghai, WV" and even showed the folks your baby pix.
Boy do they want to meet you, somethin about "Boy thats a real pretty crib ya got there"

Darrell-Darrell,
I have heard there is a can of robins egg blue paint somewhere around Keyser, WV. Fall in By-Gawd, oh the beeeuuutiful colors Orange, reds, light brown, tan and all those leaves on the ground too............... ;-)

gotta go practice for my very first grudge match........

Chao!

peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
BIG - CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 14:01:16 (ZULU) 

what is a acceptable group size for 5 shots at 300 meters while sitting with the rifle on the stick/arrow tripod ???

Hmmmh ?

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 14:01:31 (ZULU) 

If I were you, I would not trust the tables that you find in the back of the Lau book, I found lots of errors in the click values of the metric tables in particular.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 17, 1999 at 22:02:49 (ZULU) 

Torsten - Acceptable group size from a tripod/sitting? Should be the same as prone. I don't like sticks/arrows. I like a camera tripod. Its a little bulky but it is useful from prone (on its side) to standing.

What is there to say about M118LR? Its good shit.

Robins egg blue huh? Its after Easter guys. Earth tones are in.

Out here
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 01:43:46 (ZULU) 

I do have a budget, but am willing to pay for a system that will work.

This may be a little off topic for your group, but any reply would be greatly appreciated..

Thanks guys!

Bruce <citizen__kane@hotmail.com>
Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 08:19:22 (ZULU) 

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 14:39:38 (ZULU) 

jerry bearden <http://www.jerrybga@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 15:24:51 (ZULU) 

I've tried on 2 or 3 occasions to post to the Roster, but got "500 Server Error". Trying to acknowledge your test w/ N540. Yesterday I checked scope settings on two load for 260 cause I'm shooting in a match this Sat. at Ft. Benning. May have to try this 540 stuff. So far N160 and Varget are working for the 142 MKs.

And today is my last day of working on Sun. Very good cause guess when most of the matches are held? Hooyah

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 17:01:34 (ZULU) 

If you are still interested in scope caps I will get a picture of mine with a polaroid and scan it.

Don't count on MOA or even 3''. I also found an extra scope and 214 mount to put on it. I has been so long in storage I for got it had the book and spare parts kit in the butt trap too.

MJ
MJ <montereyjack@kmenterprises.com>
Monterey, Calif., USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 18:00:17 (ZULU) 

http://www.snipersparadise.com/sniper's.htm

Thomas <sniper@snipersparadise.com>
TX, USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 19:14:00 (ZULU) 

Were is the Storm Mountain Training Center located?

thank you kindly
Tom kavanaugh <kavakota@rrnet.com>
fargo, nd, USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 19:49:29 (ZULU) 

CJ

CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
new castle, de, USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 20:01:27 (ZULU) 

Late last week I picked up a HB upper made by Bill Wylde, who is on this forum from time to time. Despite bad weather here [drizzle rain, cold, gusting winds] and despite the fact that I still have the stock Bushmaster trigger on the gun [which is much worse than the weather] I put about 100 rounds through it today at 100 yards. Simply put, it is the most accurate rifle I have ever shot. With off the shelf plinking ammo it was 5 shot ragged holes. With a trigger in this gun, a decent day, and some match ammo, I will report back at 100-500.

The rifle also has one of Bill's mounts on the flat-top, which actually allows you to put a scope where it needs to be, rather than where the factory apparently wants it to be. I was shooting a Mark IV M1 10x with a Premier Reticle's lit mil-dot reticle. The reticle is nice in low light.

If you are looking for an AR upper, I highly recommend Bill's equipment. Maybe I could send this gun out to Mike M for a review, or something? It will make you look at the AR in a whole new light.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 20:07:15 (ZULU) 

Matthew Marx
Matthew Marx <mam10@ra.msstate.edu>
MSU, MS, USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 20:13:28 (ZULU) 

Sgt. J.F.McQuay
Scout Sniper, USMC
John <SNlPER8541@aol.com>
Camp Lejeune, NC, USA - Sunday, April 18, 1999 at 21:58:33 (ZULU) 

The Rustoleum paints I purchased at Quality Farm and Fleet and worked very well.

I'm Looking forward to putting it all together later on this evening.

al
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Rembrandt with and A-2 in , Ohio, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 00:22:25 (ZULU) 

Got an old 60's hippy & told him what colors I wanted.
Gave him my rifle, (unloaded, of course) and POW!!!!!!

CAMO-HAZE.

It's like, GROOVEY-man. FAR OUT!!!

Earth tones man. Earth tones.

Check you E-mail, Al.
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
House-setting & dog watching, in IL., USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 01:08:37 (ZULU) 

PAINT THE SCOPE...PAINT THE SCOPE...PAINT THE SCOPE. DO IT!!! You can do it man!! Use the force.....
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 01:17:10 (ZULU) 

To get to the point, the brass was IMI. The guy I talked to - and have since heard that he is no longer there - said to work up loads carefully as the brass was heavier than LAKE CITY.

He also stated that the head stamp would be changed to 'White Feather' at some point in the future, but that the brass would remain IMI.

Just thought you all might like to know, for those who didn't.

Larry
Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Texas Panhandle, Texas, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 02:48:48 (ZULU) 

Mike - Playing with the sling and will let you know shortly on it.

Pete - Working with the Saddle and will let you know as well.

Camo the rifle with paint and don't worry about how it looks! If it looks ratty it is about right. If it looks cool then it will become a grey blotch at range anyway! Burlap on the barrel alone will not do alot of zero damage. Burlap trapping the barrel to the forestock will destroy the zero. Watch your colors and go light first. It is esier to go darker later. Look at the area/terrain you are working in and then look "through" the vegetation. If you see light through the vegetation then go light for sure. The main thing is as Gooch stated, earth tones, earth tones, earth tones. The human eye and brain creativity causes some terrible colors to be created. Take a look at Forest Green and tell me where that dam forest is that is the model. Stay away from black, nothing in nature is black! And yes paint the scope paint the scope and NOT the lens nor turret!!!! Good call DW!!

Oh well have fun guys and hold hard!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 02:48:58 (ZULU) 

I am looking for information on Dolphin Products Inc.
Jose M. Janer <jmjaner@laplaza.org>
Taos, NM, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 03:32:23 (ZULU) 

I am looking for information on Dolphin Products Inc. "PHROBIS" 10X42, 30MM, 1/4" High Turrets and AO on the Ocular that goes from 10 to 500 Meters. My 1993 700 PSS 24", came with this Scope mounted on Leupold MK 4s. I have tried to contact the company in Oceanside, CA. and have come up with a dead end. I would appreciate input from anyone that has heard of this Tactical Scope. This sucker is very repeatable and built like a Tank. Last week, I went to NRA Whitington Center to Chonograph some 175 MK 41.5 Gr. Varget, groups at 100 yds of .340, .405 and .575 were the norm at 2500 fps. This week I will be working some Long Range (1000 yd.) Varget loads and will keep you all posted.
The best thing is that since my discharge from the USMC and spending more than 12 years without any shooting, my skill has never waned. when your taught to do it the right way is like riding a bike, you never forget.

Semper Fi

J.M. Janer Sr, Ret., Taos, New Mexico
J.M. Janer Sr. <jmjaner@laplaza.org>
Taos, NM, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 03:52:45 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H, Ohio, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 04:47:20 (ZULU) 

seril
Bangkok, Thailand - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 07:08:49 (ZULU) 

>Several vendors at Knob Creek told me they may not be able to get .308. There
>was no .45 there Saturday morning. Ammo vendors pallets were bare by 5:00
>Saturday and I was told more ammo was sold on Friday than had ever been sold
>during a three day show. I'm hearing similar stories from multiple sources.

************************************************

>For what it's worth, from an EXTREMELY reliable guy, a real establishment
>type, on a firearms-related discussion list. Folks had noticed an
>increasingly shallow supply of ammo, particularly in .45 and .223, and
>this was one of the responses.
>
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I had an interesting conversation with my local dealer today. He runs a
>medium size, full service gun and gun related only store. I told him
>about the reports that .223 and .45 were drying up in some parts of the
>country, according to this list.
>
>He said, "That ain't the half of it. It's all drying up and it has
>nothing to do with Y2K. It's war production." He says that he has
>talked to a half a dozen major wholesaliers and suppliers who all are
>telling him that the ammo on their shelves is all there is for the
>domestic market in the foreseeable future. The US government has
>ordered over a 100 million rounds of small arms ammo on an emergency
>basis and Federal, Remington and Winchester have shut down all other
>production. Furthermore, the news, as he got it, was that this is the
>first of possibly several orders. He also said that the powder makers
>are diverting the production away from cannister powders and selling all
>their current production to fulfill government contracts. Making things
>even worse, he says that Selliers and Bellot have dedicated their entire
>production facilities to the Yugoslavians. PMC is supposed to be
>totally occupied with regional governmental contracts.
>
>I don't know if any of this is true, but I do know the dealer. He never
>intends to keep anything in inventory that he doesn't believe he can
>turn over pretty fast. He has placed his normal order for the hunting
>seasons (bird and deer) in the hopes that he will have something to sell
>come September.
>
>Take this for what you think its worth. Anybody hear anything like
>this?
>
>
some friends <straight_shooter@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 09:32:37 (ZULU) 

Torsten and I have the same scope on our rifles. They do work fine and are very repeatable indeed. Check the reticle though.... The dots are not 1 but 2 mils apart! If you don't notice that, you'll be in serious sh*t when you try to range anything. Watch for puffs of dust, at twice the range to the target....

Contact me on the email adress below. We'll have a nice chat about these scopes.

To All:
I'm puzzled. Here's what's bugging me:
I use Lapua 167gr Scenar BTHP-M bullets in my Savage 110 FLP. I moly them and it works. The barrel reamins cold during firing (I compared it with several uncoated rounds and it does make quite a difference) and there's no measurable accuracy loss during the firing sequence, not even after firing 50 rounds without cleaning.
When I clean the barrel, something funny strikes me. Eventhough the moly SEEMS to be doing it's thing while shooting, I can remove LOADS of copper from the barrel afterwards.... It really strikes me.
Last Sunday I cleaned my rifle and used both Shooters Choice copper remover and Hoppes Benchrest te get the copper out. I cleaned it until the saturated patches came out the way they went in. Then, when I checked at the muzzle, there still was VISIBLE copper fouling. This is driving me NUTS! Using copper or nylon brushes made no difference! I strongly believe in using different solvents alternately during one cleaning session and up until now, I had success with it. This problem, however, is beyond me....

1. Why is there so much copper fouling, eventhough I moly my bullets and the moly seems to be working.

2. Why can't I remove the stuff from my barrel? What am I doing wrong (apart from using a Savage, hee hee hee!)

Thanks for your input!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 12:37:27 (ZULU) 

Ok you guys I cant believe that you have talked me into taking a gun I just put $1300 dollars in and and painting it! This is a good looking REM. 700 VSSF will this paint stick to stainless steel? or do I have to get a certain kind? Also will the paint chip off easy? Help me out here this is my new baby.

Thanks, Todd
Todd <terrellcl@hotmail.com>
IN, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 12:58:27 (ZULU) 

Jim Craig,
Welcome back you old bandit!! I was wondering what happened to you. Hows things in Wyoming?? Are you going to be at the match again this year?? If so we'll have to have cold one togeather and catch up.

Todd,
The 700VSSF should do just as well as the PSS and sometimes better. I have shot several and have a good friend who has one and it is capable of under half minute MOA as far as the scope I guess I cant say since I am not familiar with it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 13:17:15 (ZULU) 

First remove the nut (as Scott calls it) at the back of the bolt. There may be some spring tension on it so be careful. Remove the bolt handle. Do not remove the bolt handle camming block. There are those little spring-loaded balls in there. Next align the take down notch in the firing pin spring so you can pull out the release pin. Pull the firing pin/spring out of bolt. Know you can push out the cross pin that holds the lugs on. Clean her up and put her back together. Make sure you cock the bolt before you put the nut back on.

CJ

CJ <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 14:05:41 (ZULU) 

Texas Brigade says they put a moly coating in the barrel so you don't have to coat your bullets. Any comments on this? They garentee 1/4 inch groups. It's the lowest I've seen.

I have heard that the lead from the bullet to the riflings are longer than needed. Is the lead in the USMC M40 shorter?
I'm not sure if I want an M40 A1, A2, or A3.
What are the advantages and disadvantages.
Nick <hkmp5_2222@yahoo.com>
salt lake, utah, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 15:34:43 (ZULU) 

What is the width of your Quick-Cuff sling 1 1/4, 1 1/2 ?
Can you use Quick release swivels or is something else required?

Want to order one, need the info.. Thanks...
Tony Y
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 16:06:57 (ZULU) 

This may not be the place to say this but I JUST HAFTA. I have gotten a lot of help from the fellas here,and the reads just great. But the shortrange shotgunning stuff has got to stop.
We all have erred
hopefully we make changes for the better

T50 cmon back son

Boys if we can"t get the big gripes off face to face don"t do it here

This canuck is going to take a breath now. the doggone ice is startin ta melt WHERES DA BOAT pokey
Pokey <scottmt@fort-frances.lakeheadu.ca>
USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 19:31:17 (ZULU) 

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 20:11:17 (ZULU) 

First of all,are you sure what you are seeing on your patches is actually copper and not the moly coating being removed from the barrel?

I had a similar situation with a Remington 700 that I own.I kept putting patch after patch and brushing the bore before I realized that what I was seeing was moly.The moly I'm using has a colour not unlike what you might see from copper.Sometimes distinguishing the 2 elements can be somewhat tough to do.

This is a realatively easy thing to check for.STOP using the moly and see if this changes the amount of bluish-green colour on your cleaning patches.If things improve,my best guess is that you are in fact removing more moly than copper out of your barrel.

Now I'm realy gonna go out on a limb here.Is this a new gun?If so,have you properly broken in the barrel with non-coated bullets before using the moly?If not,perhaps you are seeing actual copper at the muzzle because you haven't cleaned enough moly out yet to get to the actual copper?

Perhaps this is the cause?

Hope this helps.Some of the more experienced guys out there might be able to help more.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Monday, April 19, 1999 at 22:40:12 (ZULU) 

OUT HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Not far from Ft Benning, USA - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 01:04:57 (ZULU) 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 03:00:33 (ZULU) 

Hoplite, Inc.
P.O. Box 6599
Shepherdstown, KY
40165
502-955-5014 8am-5pm est
502-957-6540 5pm-8pm est

Will, A Most Excellant idea on rifle camo!

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 03:09:14 (ZULU) 

Hoplite Inc.
3402 Burkland BLVD
Sheperdsville, KY 40165-8942

Number 502-955-5014

In my effort to contribute, I hope this helps.

Bruce H. <citizen__kane@hotmail.com>
Rightherein, Oklahoma, USA - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 03:15:11 (ZULU) 

Thanks AJ

Anthony Rhoda <aguidor@yahoo.com>
N.O., LA, USA - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 05:53:43 (ZULU) 

Operator 223,
You could weigh you rifle and make an Allen wrench with a long enough handle to to apply 65 in/lbs with the Allen wrench on one finger and the weight of the rifle providing the force. A machinest or their handbook will provide how to make the calculation. This is how the wrenches are made to install actions in .22 rf target rifles.

Had big enough ears to get the nickname.

Radar
Radar 90 OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micnopy Beach, Fl, USA - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 06:57:24 (ZULU) 

Wrench,Torque, Pre-set, 65 in/lbs, 1 each

http://www.seekonk.com/torthdle.htm

"Ende"
 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 14:29:32 (ZULU) 

What the heck, we needed to rotate stock anyway.

Any body got any information re: the "volunteers" going to Kosovo. Email me off-line if you do.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 16:33:01 (ZULU) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 17:19:35 (ZULU)