March 1999

By Stephen Hunter
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 27, 1999; Page C01

The academics write their mighty histories. The politicians dictate
their memoirs. The retired generals give their speeches. The intellectuals record their ironic epiphanies. And in all this hubbub
attending wars either lost or won, the key man is forgotten -- the lonely figure crouched in the bushes, wishing he were somewhere else:
the man with the rifle.

Such a man has just died, and his passing will be marked elsewhere only in small, specialized journals with names like Leatherneck and Tactical Shooter and in the Jesuitical culture of the Marine Corps, where he is still fiercely admired.

And in some quarters, even that small amount of respect will be observed with skepticism. After all, he was merely a grunt. He was a sergeant who made people do push-ups. He fought in a bad war. He was beyond irony, perspective or introspection. He made no policies, he commanded no battalions, and he invented no colorful code names for operations. But worst of all, he was a sniper.

Gunnery Sgt. (Ret.) Carlos N. Hathcock II, USMC, died Monday at 57 in
Virginia Beach, after a long decline in the grip of the only enemy he
wasn't able to kill: multiple sclerosis. In the end, he didn't recognize his own friends. So it was a kind of mercy, one supposes. But he had quite a life. In two tours in the 1960s, he wandered through the big bad bush in the Republic of South Vietnam, and with a rifle made by Winchester, a heart made by God and a discipline made by the Marine Corps, he stalked and killed 93 of his country's enemies. And that was only the official count.

It's not merely that Vietnam was a war largely without heroes. It's also that the very nature of Hathcock's heroism was a problem for so many. He killed, nakedly and without warning. There is something in the mercilessness of the sniper that makes the heart recoil. He attracts vultures, not only to his carcasses but also to his psyche. Is he sick? Is he psycho? The line troops call him "Murder Inc." behind his back. They puzzle over what he does. When they kill, it's in hot blood, in a haze of smoke and adrenaline. And much of the other death they see is inflicted by industrial applications, such as air power or artillery, which almost seem beyond human agency.

But the sniper is different. He isn't at the point of the spear; he is
the point of the element, the destruction of another human being. He's
like a '50s mad scientist, who learns things no man can learn -- how it looks through an 8x scope when you center-punch an enemy at 200 yards, and how it feels -- but he learns them at the risk of his own possible exile from the community.

But maybe Hathcock never cared much for the larger community, but only
the Marine Corps and its mission. "Vietnam," he told a reporter in 1987, "was just right for me." He even began sniping before the Corps had instituted an official policy.

And one must give Hathcock credit for consistency: In all the endless
revising done in the wake of our second-place finish in the Southeast
Asia war games, he never reinvented himself or pretended to be something he wasn't. He remained a true believer to the end, not in his nation's glory or its policies, but in his narrower commitment to the Marine code of the rifle. He never euphemized, didn't call himself an "enemy "counter-morale specialist." He never walked away from who he'd been and what he'd done. He was salty, leathery and a tough Marine Corps professional NCO, even in a wheelchair. His license plate said it best: SNIPER.

"Hell," he once said, "anybody would be crazy to like to go out and kill folks. . . . I never did enjoy killing anybody. It's my job. If I don't get those bastards, then they're going to kill a lot of these kids. That's the way I look at it."

Though he was known for many years as the Marine Corps' leading sniper
-- later, a researcher uncovered another sniper with a few more official kills -- he took no particular pleasure in the raw numbers.

"I'll never look at it like this was some sort of shooting match, where the man with the most kills wins the gold medal," he once said.

Ironically, the only decoration for valor that he won was for saving,
not taking, lives. On his second tour in Vietnam, on Sept. 16, 1969, he was riding atop an armored personnel carrier when it struck a 500-pound mine and erupted into flames. Hathcock was knocked briefly unconscious, sprayed with flaming gasoline and thrown clear. Waking, he climbed back aboard the burning vehicle to drag seven other Marines out. Then, "with complete disregard for his own safety and while suffering an excruciating pain from his burns, he bravely ran back through the flames and exploding ammunition to ensure that no Marines had been left behind," according to the citation for the Silver Star he received in November 1996, after an extensive letter-writing campaign by fellow Marines had failed to win him the Medal of Honor for his exploits with a rifle.

But he was equally proud of the fact that as a sniper platoon sergeant
on two tours, no man under his command was killed.

"I never lost a person over there," he told a visiting journalist in
1995. "Never lost nobody but me, and that wasn't my fault."

Hathcock was an Arkansan, from a dirt-poor broken home, who joined the
Marine Corps at 17 and quickly understood that he had found his place in the world. He qualified as an expert rifleman in boot camp and began quickly to win competitive shooting events, specializing in service rifle competition. In 1965, he won the Wimbledon Cup, the premier American 1,000-yard shooting championship. Shortly after that he was in Vietnam, but it was six months before the Marines learned the value of dedicated sniper operations and a former commanding officer built a new unit around his talents. Hathcock gave himself to the war with such fury that he took no liberty, no days off and toward the end of his first tour was finally restricted to quarters to prevent him from going on further missions.

After the war, he suffered from the inevitable melancholy. Forced
medical retirement from the Corps in 1979 -- he had served 19 years 10
months 5 days -- led to drinking problems and extended bitterness. The multiple sclerosis, discovered in 1975, certainly didn't help, and burns that covered 43 percent of his body made things even more painful, but what may have saved his life -- it certainly saved the quality of his life -- was the incremental recognition that came his way as more and more people discovered who he was and what he had done. Even in the atmosphere of moral recrimination in the aftermath of the war, enough people far from media centers and universities were still attracted to the Spartan simplicity of his life and battles and to the integrity of his heroism.

His biography, "Marine Sniper," written by Charles Henderson, was
published in 1985; it sold over half a million copies. In the brief
blast of publicity that followed, he stood still for interviews with The Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune and others. The general population may have soon forgotten about him, but in the world of target shooters, hunters and police and military shooting, he was a revered figure. And particularly as shooters came to perceive culture, he became a symbol of the heroic man with a gun. He connected, in some atavistic way, to other American heroes, like Audie Murphy or Sgt. Alvin York, perhaps even Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone. They were all men like Hathcock who grew up on hardscrabble farms far from the big cities and learned early to shoot, read sign and understand the terrain.

Other gun culture enterprises kept him visible in a specialized universe unmonitored by the media, and put some money on the table. He authorized a poster that showed him in full combat regalia, crouched over his Model 70 Winchester, his face blackened, his boonie cap scrunched close to his head, the only identifier being a small sprig of feather in its band. In fact, a long-range .308-caliber ammunition was sold as "White Feather," from the Vietnamese Long Tra'ng, his nickname. He consulted on law enforcement sharpshooting, a growth area in the '80s and '90s as nearly every police department in America appointed a designated marksman to its de rigueur SWAT team. He appeared in several videos, where he revealed himself to be a practically oriented man of few but decisive words, with a sense of humor dry as a stick. He inspired several novels and at least two nonfiction books, and his exploits made it onto TV, where a "JAG" episode featured a tough old Marine sniper, and even into the movies, even if he was never credited.

In both 1994's "Sniper" and, more recently, "Saving Private Ryan,"
heroic riflemen dispatch enemy counter-snipers with rounds so perfectly placed they travel the tube of the enemy's scope before hitting him in the eye. In both cases, the shooters are tough Southerners (played by Tom Berenger and Barry Pepper), very much in the Hathcock mold. According to "Marine Sniper," Hathcock made such a shot, dispatching a Viet Cong sniper sent to target him specifically.

Also according to that book, he ambushed a female enemy interrogator, a North Vietnamese general and a VC platoon that he took down, a man at a time, over a 24-hour engagement.

Finally, and perhaps best of all, he ascended to a special kind of
Marine celebrity. The Corps named the annual Carlos Hathcock Award after him for its best marksman. A Marine library in Washington has been named after him and a Virginia Civil Air Patrol unit named itself after him. In 1990 a Marine unit raised $5,000 in donations to fight multiple sclerosis and presented it to him at his home. They brought it to him the old-fashioned way, the Marine way: They ran 216 miles from Camp Lejeune, N.C., to Virginia Beach.

It was a tribute to his toughness that Carlos Hathcock understood.

According to the account in the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot, the old sniper told the men, "I am so touched, I can hardly talk."

In the end, he could not escape the terrible disease that had afflicted him since 1975. But death, with whom he had an intimate relationship, at least came to him quietly -- as if out of respect.

© Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company

Kevin
Arlington, VA, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 00:41:22 (ZULU) 

To Kevin in Arlington: Thank you for posting Hunter's piece.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 06:03:59 (ZULU) 

I would like to join.
Stephen Wu <Arthur51@Hotmail.com>
Quincy, Massachusetts, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 15:26:59 (ZULU) 

Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 15:28:16 (ZULU) 

Have you tried e-mailing Redding with your dilemna? They are good folks and may be able to help you out even though catalog sez nope!
They are listed under "HotLinks"
Chao !

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 17:27:06 (ZULU) 

Jeff A,
I put my 3.5x10LR on the 260 and tried it out on the range out to 700yds. I used the JBM Ballistics program on SC to give me an idea of what to use for my dial's and it was right on the money all the way out to the 700yd mark. I wasn't off more than 2" at long ranges and you can't ask for more than that. The Varget and 142s are working great!! Its averaging around .5 MOA all the way out.I shot 3 shot groups out to 600 and a 5 shot at 700 and they averaged anywhere from .3 MOA to .6 MOA for the 700yd 5 shot group. The N135 load I tried was to hot with the 140s but fine for the 142s. I think the problem was the 140s are in the lands and the 142s aren't. They didn't shoot bad though, I plan on trying the 140 A-MAX when they get here I'll let you know how they do.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 17:27:28 (ZULU) 

Thanks for Stephen Hunter's article in the Washington Post about Carlos Hathcock's life.

Bill
Bill Bledsoe <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Shelby County, KY, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 18:34:34 (ZULU) 

It's been bugging me since I read that review in light of wanting to do this procedure myself. I'm able to keep .4-.5 groups all day long with my PSS but cleaning is a real BEAR. My CBS is 1" higher that point of aim and varies .5-.6 Anyhow, how about an update after a couple hundred rounds.

BTW, I really appreciate your chrono info you included with the review.

Zee
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 20:54:27 (ZULU) 

The scope has 60 MOA internal elevation adjustment. I currently need to dial in 45 minutes elevation to get sighted-in at 100 yards. But I would prefer to be sighted-in and still have most of my elevation to work with.

Considering this .22LR weapon won't shoot much farther than 125 to 150 yards anyway, should I just leave it alone? Would getting the Leupold medium or low rings make a big difference? If I did switch to lower rings, my concern would be that my head would not be in line with the scope anymore, due to the raised comb on the stock.

Any thoughts?

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 21:24:07 (ZULU) 

For those of you who are still interested, have 32 shirts left. My wife would certainly stop staring daggers at me if you all would order one soon! Thanks!

By the way, the shirt is going to be made from a top quality Fruit of the Loom Lofteez instead of the Hanes Beefy. This is a 6 ounce, 100% heavy cotton shirt and I felt the quality was a little better. The pocket has been dropped as the final product just looked better with out it. Thanks again to those of you who placed an order early! For those of you requiring XXXL, I ordered a few just in case. You might wish to email me to reserve one of these as I only have four left. I’ll try to get an image of the shirt and hat up on the page next week.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, March 01, 1999 at 22:43:10 (ZULU) 

Gooch, did your dog eat your keyboard?

Back to the grind. The UnDude
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 00:20:58 (ZULU) 

Bach, the Burris Signature rings that Pablito is talking about are great, you can solve all kinds of alignment problems with them. The .22 rings are .750 high. If I remember right you can get the weaver style or standard redfield style in .950. what kind of groups are you getting at 100?

Mike (dudely one) was that HK-33 the sniper version with the adjustable stock and grip or was it the standard STG? what was the problem with it? thanks
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 01:11:05 (ZULU) 

Sorry for straying off a bit, but this is the only place I haunt w/ numerous active bros.

Semper Fi,
Andre
Andre Peterson <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 02:22:47 (ZULU) 

Pat:

when you get to H-S, ask for the guy who makes their barrels shoot, then ask for Jeremy. Sent you an e-mail, but if yours is on the fritz this will have to do. 3:30 is no problem, I'm lucky if I get out of there by 7:00, I'll be around.

I'm wondering why suddenly at work I am being asked if I can get a 6.5 x 284 barrel made for Quantico. this just seems a little too coincidental with the talk on SC. If you wanna push a 140 gr 6.5 bullet at 3000 fps, go with a 9-9.5" twist, use 4831 or 4350, choose a tight barrel, you'll do all right.

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 03:12:55 (ZULU) 

Lastly, to answer a FAQ, the IBA ad also lists an email address, which is M40shooter@aol.com. (Sorry, still no website listed, for those who were going to ask!)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 06:22:19 (ZULU) 

To Lloyd: Jo (not "Joe" like it reads on the main page-- HINT!) Hathcock's address is under one of my posts in last week's archives for the Duty Roster.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 06:43:34 (ZULU) 

Title:
tom
USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 07:34:28 (ZULU) 

I'm in the market for a log book. This has been hashed around a LOT, previously. What are you folks using and why?
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 12:01:24 (ZULU) 

Dave-Broadsword,
Gooch Book, I Like it now what are they going to call the tactical shooting mat?

Zero,
If your 700 shoots tat good leave it alone, and yes I promise to post something once the rifle has a few more rounds through it.

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-GaWd, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 13:17:15 (ZULU) 

I would think the WMDB is designed for field/military scenarios where you are also an observer.

The LOD might be more applicable to LE, as much of the shot report pages are based on head shots.
They both have some nice things about them, but they both leave a lotta' room for improvement (are you reading this Gooch?).

If I had to pick one, I would go with the WMDB...
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 13:54:11 (ZULU) 

I have just decided to buy Remington 700 as my first long range rifle.
I Poland I can purchase 700 Police (24 inch barrel, heavy stock),
700 VSS and 700 VS SF (both 26 inch barrels). Can anyone help me to chose among mentioned guns.

Andrzej
Dr. Andrzej R. Stopczynski <stopczynski@kredytbank.com.pl>
Warszawa, Poland - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 16:40:28 (ZULU) 

T.R.G.T. has begun printing its new data book this week. Sheet size is 5 1/2" by 8 1/2". There are approximately 138 sheets, or 280 pages, in a book. This includes ballistics information for the .308/7.62 NATO cartridges. The book itself is expected to go for $30-35. With nylon case and some other features, expect a price tag of $50 - 60. Stand by for more details.

Operations Partner
T.R.G.T. - L.L.P.
 

T.R.G.T. - L.L.P. <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, CO, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 16:46:21 (ZULU) 

Still no Gooch. Dog must of gotten very hungry.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 17:58:43 (ZULU) 

I hope that the forthcoming GoochBook addresses this issue, in one way or another.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 18:16:39 (ZULU) 

140gr.bullet: 49gr. RL22/MRP/RP15, mv=2750fps in a 24" european barrel. In a tight US SS-barrel with molycoated bullets you are looking at 2800fps with a tailored load.

(To anybody else: DO NOT USE THIS LOAD IN A KRAG!!!!!)

In subzero freezing temperatures some norwegian competitionshooters use Federal 215 magnum primers. They claim this gives more consistant groups in longrange field-target.

Norma's 130gr (VLD,MC,BC:.55-something) Fieldtarget factoryround gives close to 3000fps in a tight US-barrel. This is the flattest shooting matchquality round in a standard calibre I've ever tried.

TorF <tor.fleime@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, March 02, 1999 at 19:56:32 (ZULU) 

Gentlemen,

I am looking into purchasing a savage tactical model in .308 to begin long
range sniper training with the friend I intend to join the marines with. Does
anybody have an opinion on this rifle I don't have enough money for a
remington but do want to begin shooting more then I currently do. Any
information would be greatly appriciated
Zack <FROM1000@aol.com>
Grand Rapids, MI, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 00:33:41 (ZULU) 

Mrbullet stopped by the shop today and let me in on the 6.5 140 gr. craze. Looks damn good, nearly identical to the 300Win @ the same bc. I could not believe how long the A-max was, and I now remit the 9-9.5" twist statement previously rendered until further notice. I'm gonna see if management will let me loose on a few test barrels. Have been questioned about making a barrel for a 6.5 x 284, will let you guys know how that comes out on paper if I can. I've never really looked close at the vld's, that will now change.

Pat:

Hope ya got to see everything you wanted, if not, we'll do 'er again.
 

JR
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 01:09:04 (ZULU) 

The TRGT book is the one that I and a couple of guys have been working on. One of the data pages we have in it is simply a circle that you detemine the size of and can draw what ever target you want around it. It is a hybrid of the Quantico USMC SSIS databook, NRA high power and the databooks I developed at the national Guard course. It has cold bore, KD, UKD, range cards, Observation logs, target engagment datasheets, ballistics tables, zero summary and range estimation charts. All with room for notes. It also has instructional information on moving targets techniques, reading wind, reading mil scales etc. It will be printed on rite in the rain paper (light green).

We are working on a 3 ring binder which will let you put notebook paper in it for miscelaneous notes.

THe TRGT web site (www.TRGT.com) will have more info when it is published.

Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 01:10:03 (ZULU) 

He has been an inspiration to us all and his spirit will live on forever. God bless.
SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning , GA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 03:31:20 (ZULU) 

Russ: Thanks for the information on the glass and pillare bedding.

al
AlOstapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Little Poland, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 05:09:26 (ZULU) 

To Zack: The current dealer price on the Savage 110FP Tactical is, the last I looked, $295 to $310, depending on where you purchase from. A "fair" retailer cost is $40 to $50 over dealer. Anything more than that and you would be best served to continue shopping for a dealer who isn't out to make his car payment based on ONE sale. Those who have more money know how to spend it, but for budget-minded shooters the Savage 110FP Tactical is a fine entry-level rifle. For a few dollars more (Clint Eastwood music, maestro, if you please), you can upgrade the stock if you wish. The two biggest complaints about Savages, from a functional viewpoint, are the stock and the trigger. The trigger can be adjusted down to 2.25 pounds -- less, if you aren't worried about the safety not working. (I recommend leaving the safety operational.) Scott Powers will point out, and I have previously agreed, that for the price of an equivalent Remington you are also getting a moderately decent stock. For now, however, if you buy the Savage, don't worry about the stock and the trigger. If YOU can shoot, IT will shoot. When you feel like you want to upgrade the rifle at some point, contact me offline and I'll give you some suggestions. Do yourself a favor and buy a few boxes of Federal GM308M for your rifle (presuming you buy one chambered for .308 Winchester). Good luck.

On log books: I can't believe there's still a perceived "void" in the log book arena. And, as I noted in E-mail to some of you a few days ago, certain "individuals" have collaborated on business effort. Among the items to be marketed are log books. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To SSG Cady: I sent you a request for some information. Please check your inbox and get back to me when you have a moment.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 06:10:44 (ZULU) 

To L.C. McCain: I responded to your request for outsourcing suggestions regarding your... um... "project"... but your return address was not valid. Please furnish a good address and I'll get the information out to you immediately. Also, thanks for the information on alloy scrap materials.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 09:05:18 (ZULU) 

Norma has a very nice ballistic "computer" on their website: http://www.norma.cc/

Norma's matchrounds are listed on the Swedish verson with english text...
.308Win match are loaded with Sierra 168gr and 190gr MK.

Have fun.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 11:05:12 (ZULU) 

This bullet is listed in Norma's ballistic "computer".

I've never heard of it before. It's not listed on Sierra's web.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 11:18:05 (ZULU) 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 12:44:30 (ZULU) 

Lets see, new Sierra 8mm slug and Remington talking about an 8mm Ultra Mag. Hmmmmmmmm? Could be a most gnarly combination for the mid-bore crowd.

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 13:15:14 (ZULU) 

Sierra 8mm HP Match 200gr, BC: 0.486

I think this is a bullet designed for 8X57IS.

MV for the old warhorse should be around 2700fps.

I think it's time to build a replica of a M98K sniper.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 13:26:37 (ZULU) 

Mark D
Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 13:29:02 (ZULU) 

You might also consider a Savage 10FP. It's the short action version of the 110FP. The shorter action will give you a bit more rigidity there. Given the choice, it is probably preferable for a shorter case round like a .308 or .223. It is otherwise pretty much identical to the 110FP (I note that all pictures of this rifle depict only one front sling post, but it has two, and I think the stock has checkering that the 110 doesn't). The only "drawback" I found is that the short action forces you to use a two piece scope mount (since all of the one piece mounts seem to be designed for the longer action).

Regarding the Savage trigger, it's really only bad when compared to the pull weight of a light match trigger. Outside of weight, the feel of it is outstanding. No creep, precise release. The fact is, you get used to the weight, and if you can get it down to 3 pounds or so, that's all you need, and it's less dangerous than an eight ounce trigger. Plus, if you learn to shoot with a heavier triggger, you won't get frustrated when it counts at the 500 yard line during qual day on your decidedly non-match M-16A2, when you join the Marines.

Should you decide that you must upgrade the trigger, there is one that is supposed to be excellent for the Savage. It is made by Sharp Shooter. I found a review in an older (late '97, maybe?) Precision Shooting. I guess it simply replaces the guts of a standard Savage trigger and is adjustable for 2 - 48 ounces, or something like that. Apparently it is a big item as there is a note in the latest Midway catalogue stating that demand is high and they are backordering.

Good luck on joining the Marines. Just remember, one day in the distant future, you will appreciate the fact that you were never so alive and immortal as the day you came out of boot camp. Hopefully, you do your best to keep the decline shallow from there!

Semper Fi,
André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 13:46:51 (ZULU) 

Frankonia Jagd, Cabela of Germany...

Still it looks like the bullets are coming to Scandinavia.

I'll try them out.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 14:32:32 (ZULU) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 15:57:18 (ZULU) 

To TorF and Steve: Thanks very much for the detailed response. Good work, gentlemen.

To Zack: Andre is quite right about the trigger, you do get used to it. Most of my life I never had a "match" trigger on anything I ever shot, and I did just fine. It's only around elitist types that you start hearing a lot of whining about stiff trigger pulls. Should you become an elitist, however, you can opt for the Sharp Shooter trigger. Midway's number is 1-800-243-3220. (If you know your calibers, you'll always remember Midway's phone number.) I also agree with Andre about the shorter action. Had they been available, I'd have bought my Savages with the shorter action instead of the longer versions. I'm not a good enough shot, however, that I could ever blame a miss on a "flexing action," so I'm not going to lose any sleep over having long-action Savage rifles. Unless you (insanely) choose a .300 Winchester Magnum for your first rifle, stick with the .308 Winchester or the .223 Remington and get your Savage in the 10- or 12-series.

To Steve (again): Seriously? THIRTY bucks for one hundred 8mm Match Kings? My God!
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 16:09:01 (ZULU) 

Russ you let others decide what they read. I skip over many a post that is not worth my time.

Gooch a Data Book is needed!
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 16:11:19 (ZULU) 

By switching, I assume that you mean having two upper receivers with individual Bolt carriers groups and attatched bbls, and that your intent is to mount one or the other to a single lower receiver?

If that's the case, why not just buy another lower receiver? It can't be that expensive and then you won't have to switch everything else. Otherwise there shouldn't be any harm in switching entire upper receivers once in a while.

If you are talking about mixing and matching two sets of PARTS for a single upper receiver housing, I don't know that I would do that. I know that they are supposed to be interchangeable and people do it a lot, but if you want to maintain accuracy of any weapon, chose a good set of parts and stick with them until they have to be changed. A rifle will wear with the parts in a particular way and develop certain tolerances. If you start swapping them around, you might sacrifice accuracy for interchangability. Not to mention the wear on the parts just from the swapping itself. And NEVER use a single bolt in more than one chamber. That can be very dangerous.

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 17:42:51 (ZULU) 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 18:19:20 (ZULU) 

It seems that I have a different perspective than you do on triggers.
Personally, I've gotten along with a lot of mediocre to lousy triggers. You're absolutely right, you can deal with it. But why would you if you don't have to? I don't see that as elitist.

Harris bipods: Brownells now sells a large, knurled nob that replaces the screwdriver-slot factory one. Has anyone used one? It looks like it might be a good idea... Or should I just tighten mine up so it's really stiff and then Loctite it?

Bolt: I have a pair of Steiner 8x30 Military/Marine binocs too, and I can second the recommendaton. Very clear optics, really good binocs. I paid full retail some years back which was $200.

dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 18:27:43 (ZULU) 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 18:40:37 (ZULU) 

As to my doing business with Huego and Gooch. I hacve talked with Huego sevaral times via E mail, he has never tried to sell me anything. Gooch has become a product tester so to speak. He has received no money and asked for nothing. He has helped me with lession plans(no compensation for him) He has never tried to sell me anything.

Now for you. I have watched you on this site for about six months. My 18 years as a cop, 15 of a sniper and weapons teacher has brought me to this estimate of your abilites. I doubt you have ever been in the Military, never a Sniper and most of what you claim to know is from reading Petersen Publishing Magazines. Prove me wrong!

Now this site is not for this type of thing so if all goes right I will be at the Carlos Shoot in Oct. if you want to take this up then. Look for me buying Fred and Dep. Dave Beers.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 18:41:14 (ZULU) 

I'm sure you'll get some applause on your comments. Bravo!

See, you miss the point. That is, I don't CARE what you think. I don't have anything to prove. I'm not even inspired to "prove" anything, and certainly not by your words. I also don't give a fat rat's petutie what you think of me, what I say, how I know what I know, or anything of the sort. I won't be at SMTC, ever, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

You couldn't have been "watching me" for six months because I haven't BEEN HERE for six months (give or take). I'm also not going to tell you "where to go," because there's no need. And again, you just don't seem to get it, I DON'T "CARE" WHAT YOU SAY. I don't care if you agree with me or not, I don't care if you spend your money with xxxxxxxx, I JUST DON'T CARE, Mike. Now... initially, my comment was about "the business." You took it upon yourself to address ME about my comments. That's fine. I owe you a response everytime you do so. That being the case, this is my response to your last post. Now, we can keep filling up the Roster with your comments, then my responses to them, or you can drop it, or take it up with me via E-mail. Or, just shut the f**k up. Call it.
 

Russell E. Taylor <Sniper308@qconline.com>
Silvis, IL, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 19:43:23 (ZULU) 

For the rest of you, DO NOT ENGAGE Russ in a verbal battle HERE on this roster. It ends HERE. The staff has ulcers enough trying to maintain the site and keep it interesting. Settling differences is not part of our job description. Please guys, keep the Roster to the point and leave the chest pounding to private mail. Thanks.

This is not censorship. You all can scream all you want via private mail. But do not drag the rest of the roster down. We all have bad days. When you have one don't drag everyone else into it.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 20:08:55 (ZULU) 

you're out of line, and you know it - DAMN WELL. LAY OFF!!

Gooch and company are welcome to advertise their wares here, whatever that may be. That is despite the fact that one of "...and company..." is not really. Gooch is as welcome to post on this forum as any other of our visitors is - including you.  Don't let that change - stick to the normal rules of etiquette, or learn them.  What happened has happened - let it be. In the end NO files were lost, as I had backups of everything.

Any further discussions on this matter WILL be offline, or I SHALL remove it as soon as I see it. You want to argue with Mike M, do so - OFFLINE. Same with me. Right now my mail is out of service, so I do not know what is waiting there for me.

That is ALL on this matter.

And if my English sucks, fine - after all it is only my second language.

And only now in "maintenance mode" do I see Scott's remarks - well said Scott, my point exactly.

Marius Ferreira - Webmaster
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 20:10:56 (ZULU) 

Mike M...
Where's the info on the sling you were going to send me...
I'm using a 1907, and would like something more "user friendly"!.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 21:42:19 (ZULU) 

Starting with caliber and rifle selection, the course worked through the basics of zeroing and long-range balistics, use of scopes and BDCs, log book record keeping, wind and range estimation, concealment, and tactics. Field exercises included zeroing for various distances, spotter/shooter drills on target designation, observation exercises, field shooting positions, and shooting drills on bobbing and walking targets. My personal high point was scoring five out of five hits on moving targets at 300 yards. Omitted due to time and facilities constraints were stalking exercises (though we examined some ghillie suits and covered their construction and use), estimating range in the field, and shooting past 600 yards.

Max and his team put together a very informative and enjoyable course for a long weekend, one that gave everyone an excellent introduction to many of the arts of sniping and packed a lot of training into a short period of time. If the class had a weak point, it was that, while proficient in these skills himself, Max may not be as capable as I might like in analyzing a student's shooting techniques and suggesting improvements. But, having done a lot of training under Louie Awerbuck, arguably one of the best shooting analysts around, it's entirely possible that I've been spoiled in that regard. TFTT is tentatively planning to repeat this class next year as everyone was pleased with the results.
Grasshopper <eric@safeword.com>
Richmond, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 21:46:02 (ZULU) 

USMC 08: IBA now has an ad that lists an email address, which is M40shooter@aol.com. To the best of my knowledge IBA still does not have a website.

Their other contact info is:

Iron Brigade Armory
100 Radcliffe Circle
Jacksonville, NC 28546
Phone (910) 455-3834

This was still current as of the last time I called them a few months back. Good luck on your inquiry.

"Bravo Two to Spectre, we've got unfriendlies all over the place down here, on my authority expend all remaining ordnance on my position I say again on expend all ordnance on my position. Delta Charlie. OUT!" ;)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 21:53:24 (ZULU) 

On a Sako .243 Ack Imp (1:8 Schnieder barrel), that was built to shoot the Berger 105gr VLD moly-coated bullet at 3150 fps using 48gr of H380 (moving to Vihta Vouri N160), on 2 of the rounds out of 200 (fire-formed and neck-sized only), the brass has been completely severed (top from bottom) during firing about 0.5" above the base. There isn't any excess pressure evidence in primer flow or any detectable separation evidence in any other spent casings.

On the first instance I believed it was excess pressure caused by the temperature "volitility" of H380 (and actually all non-temperature stable powders.) Well, when the second separation happened on a cool day away from direct sunlight, in a cool chamber--that theory went out the window.

Any thoughts are welcome -- especially from gunsmiths familiar with the .243 Ackley reaming.

Thanks, -Mike.
Mike Vader <scoplevel@scoplevel.com>
Livermore, CA, USA - Wednesday, March 03, 1999 at 23:11:12 (ZULU) 

need some technical data on these Vld's. Help me out guys, let me know where to look.
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 01:18:54 (ZULU) 

JR
What do you need to know about VLDs??? You might want to check Bergers web sight they give the recommended twists for some of the VLDs.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 03:23:53 (ZULU) 

what should be here is still here. What should not, is not - not all of it really, but some.

Just bypass the squibbles and rather read the good stuff - makes better reading than mud does is any case :-)

Marius
Marius <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 04:11:20 (ZULU) 

After years of owning nothing other than semi-automatic rifles (Ruger 10/22's, AR-15's and a M1A-A1), I have reached the point where I want a rifle capable of truly outstanding accuracy. I'm mainly interested in the bolt-action "tactical" rifles chambered in .308 Winchester. The Remington 700-VS was my first choice, but after reading all the gun mags I felt that the Savage 10FP shouldn't be overlooked. Sounds like it should be an incredibly accurate rifle for a very reasonable price.

On to the information I'm looking for -

1) I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has "intimate" knowledge of the Savage 10FP/110FP as to their opinion of the rifle and its capabilities.

2) I'm planning on using a Springfield Armory ART-IV 3x9x40 scope (made for Springfield Armory by Burris) that I already have on my new rifle. Anyone have any experience with this scope and comments about its use on a tactical rifle?

3) Being limited to two-piece scope mounting bases on a short action Savage rifle (at least that appears to be the case), would the Redfield SR bases along with Redfield medium-height rings be a good choice for mounting the scope I have mentioned?

4) Does the "cheap" stock on the Savage 10FP hinder its accuracy? If so, are there any good tactical stocks available for this rifle?

5) Are there any good handloads for a .308 rifle that I should try using Winchester 748 propellant and Federal 210M primers along with either Sierra 168gr BTHP Match or Nosler 150gr Ballistic Tip bullets? [I've got a good supply of those components!] And what about using military cases vs. commercial cases? [I've got a good supply of Lake City military brass.]

I'm assuming from past experience that any new rifle is going to need some trigger work (or replacement of the trigger assembly with something better) no matter what brand of rifle I buy. So I won't ask anything about that!!

Looking forward to your input!

Gary <1GSX1166@msn.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 04:17:25 (ZULU) 

Anthony J. Rhoda III <aguidor@yahoo.com>
N.O., LA, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 06:01:06 (ZULU) 

has anyone of you heard, seen, or used "pencil" tracers ???

I saw some about 5 years ago while visiting with PMC-Eldorado, they were not in use there, but just a sample with a letter on the desk.
They looked like a piece of lead out of a pencil, and the idea was that you drill a hole in the base of the bullet and insert the pencil tracer into it. Burning temperature was to be a lot lower and barrel friendlier than regular tracer and they affects of the compound burning away were to be less drastic on accuracy.
I think they also had dim "IR" tracers for use with NOD´s.

Anyone Know of this manufacturer or process, please contact me.

Gramps,
still no incomming ! probably someone munching on them at customs?

173´s,
have a load of 43Gn. of PCL 507 now that pushes them at 820 M/sek. = 2500 ft/sek. Best 5 shot group´s at 300 Meters were down to 2.4 inches.

"Ende"
 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 07:50:13 (ZULU) 

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/5061/index.html
 

JR: Has H.S. ever considered making a stock along the lines of the VS or PSS for the Savage rifles? If not, it would seem you folks are missing an opportunity here as the demand seems to be fairly high judging from all the questions people ask on this subject. By the way, are the stocks Janet offered SC for review available yet for that purpose? I'd like to get to them soon before another show circuit starts. No rush, but I thought I'd ask! Later!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 12:23:17 (ZULU) 

Pup,
Don't think Rem. makes a long action in the 40-X single shot. This means that if you choose not to fire a cartridge, then you have to remove the bolt to get it out of there. Haven't seen any newer 40-Xs so can't comment on current availability on long actions. Something to consider though.

You may also want to make sure that decent bullets are available for your purpose. Up until a few years ago only hunting grade items were commonly available.

Worked on someone's Varmint Spl. a number of years ago. Never did get even one good group out of it. Must have been a poor barrel. Was scoped with a 36X Unertl. Now THAT is a piece of glass!!!

Off to make chips and sparks.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 12:33:31 (ZULU) 

Another approach that I've considered (although I don't really like the "Redfield SR/JR" type mounts/rings) is to use one of these with and "extended" rear and front ring. This would buy me another .600" or so of eye relief.

Does anyone have alternative suggestions? I would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

Rosco
Rosco Benson <roscobenson@earthlink.net>
Beavercreek, OH, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 14:58:46 (ZULU) 

My Next Question purtains to the mildot reticle. If I remember correctly I read that you guys can reduce error to 10-15% in ranging using the Mildot reticles. What formula do you use to derive this percent error. I am wanting to use a duplex reticle in range estimation for varmint hunting, and was wondering how acurartely I could do this. How much will the deviation in animal size effect this?

Thanks in advance,

Matthew
Matthew Marx <mam10@ra.msstate.edu>
MSU, MS, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 15:55:29 (ZULU) 

On to what this site is about. About Springfield Armory Scopes. I have tried several. My understanding is they are made by Hakko (spelling?) in Japan. That is what I was told about two years ago. I tried all there scopes and found them to be great looking but not what I would put on a working sniper rifle. I would go with a better scope. The scope seems to be often overlooked on rifles and the accuracy of many rifles is not brought out because of this. If you haven't bought it yet, please go with something with less promise and more go. I am not trying to offend you so please don't be. I just feel like I waisted my money on there scope and hope others don't.

H.S. Prescision, I have had there top of the line stock for about two months now. HS is the best stock on the planet. I would cancel my four month old order ffor another big name stock but I want to see how long it takes to get that A3 stock.

The Undude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 16:31:05 (ZULU) 

Excellent post to JR re: 260. I couldn't agree more. So you're gonna do a 6.5/284? I just love a new project. Took my 260 out last sat. and got caught in pouring rain. Still shoots like dream. Berger 140 vlds molyed w/ 39.gr. Varget. Rain pouring, rifle soaking wet. I shot until rain was so heavy I couldn't see target. Great fun....

Got one of those "long range" stocks from HS. Inletted for M70 long action. Got a used M70 LA CRF. Can you say "potential project"? Maybe 6.5/284? Don't know.
See, you just gave me something fresh and new to lie awake and obsess about.

What charge wt and pdr. type are you getting 2800 fps w/ 142 MKs?

Hope all is well w/ you and your family.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Hotlanta, Ga, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 17:04:47 (ZULU) 

Have you tried increasing the pull length of the stock? My mutant form consists of a spindly surfer Dude chest with basketball player length arms on a Herve Villachaize sized body........
But I found tacking on spacers or generally increasing the "correct" length by 1/2" made a world of difference. Heck of a lot easier to do than spending big bucks on rings and bases that may not work.
You wouldn't happen to know anything about that ther Paladin thingee from Ohier would you?

Chao!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 17:53:14 (ZULU) 

Here goes... I'm using new brass that's been once fired for forming only. (I did have a couple of shoulder splits in the fire forming, but I understand that's not unusual). Remember, these are the first fully formed loads through the rifle. The brass (2 out of 200) has "broken" (to use a better word) into two pieces. I come away with a piece looking like a jagged .45ACP case and, well, the other half, the top. They go back together perfectly and I think with a little JB Weld... just kidding.

According to conversations with Walt Berger (the VLD guy) my formula is right on for 600+ yds.

Any ideas?

-Mike.
Mike Vader <scoplevel@scoplevel.com>
Livermore, CA, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 18:00:56 (ZULU) 

Mike,
I don't know what to tell you about your cases I have never had any split or come apart. I used all Winchester brass for mine what brand are you using?? My Smith always cuts the chambers to the MIN. too.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 20:34:34 (ZULU) 

where do I get an email address for The Washington Post to get permission to put the above obituary of Gunny on the site? I do not want to spoil his legacy by doing illegal things.

Darrell Goff,
you're welcome. I suggest you also take a look at the Articles section, under Military and Sniping History. I just added a tributary to Gunny written by Stuart Meyers.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 20:52:42 (ZULU) 

Anyway, got a little heart warmer here.

Back in the mid 80's when I was an instructor at SSIS, Gunny Hathcock came up to Quantico to watch Junior shoot the Interservice Rifle Matches. He came by the Sniper School to say "Yo" as he usually did when he was in the AO and he decided that he would rather rack out in the office than stay elsewhere. (We had a bunk in the back, shower etc.) I loaned him my key, we had a few beers and I went home. When I came back the next day my key was laying on my desk with a thank you note that read, "Thank you all for the use of the wigwam and thank you for the use of the key! Snipers forever, GySgt C.M. Hathcock II"

I kept that note in my valuables since then and a couple of years ago I thought I had lost it. A day or so after Gunny passed away I was going through some of my old martial arts books and there it was! Pressed between the pages of my Isshin Ryu manual. Made my day.

Guys, don't be too sad about Gunny's passing. It's always sad to lose a father or a spouse but Gunny has gone to a better place and he isn't in pain anymore. I'm sure he is coaching angels on the use of a loop sling and trying to figure out what happens to the BC of a 173gr BTFMJ in heaven. I also heard he told St Peter that he could learn a thing or two about range maintanence from Col Willis. Easy Gunny, remember we all pushed lawn mowers at WTBn, you may find yourself humping a weed-eater.

See ya'll later.

Oh the answer to my question is,"a wanna bee".

Gooch
8541/11B4
Gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 21:46:41 (ZULU) 

Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 21:51:00 (ZULU) 

To Scott: That was an excellent review that you did on the Tasco binoculars. I have a old pair of M-19's and I find that ranging with the mil-scale works great up to 200 yards, after that it aint worth a crap. I know that one can use the hash marks and numbers for ranging at further distance, but I find it ackward at best. After reading your review and seeing how much trouble you went to to figure out how to use the scale on the Tasco, I just have to wonder that if you spent a similar amount of time with a good fixed-power Duplex rifle scope, you would wonder what all the fuss is over the mil-dot scopes. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 23:05:54 (ZULU) 

Does anyone have a source for the Chinese M85 Parker Hale style bipods? I havent gotten Shotgun News in some time, so my old sources are out. Thanks in advance.
Grenadier2 <grenadier2@earthlink.net>
FireBase Bandit, USA - Thursday, March 04, 1999 at 23:34:09 (ZULU) 

Scott:

I myself own a 30-06 Savage 110 barreled action which is just sittin' there waiting for an H-S tactical stock. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting. There was talk a few years back about a Savage stock coming into our line-up, I don't know what happened but it seems they are becoming a lot more popular among the mainstream shooters, so there is a good chance, hopefully, that they will consider it again.

Thanks for the info on the vld's everyone, will have the boss give ol' Walt a call, see if I can get something on paper about them. Checked out the Berger site, the .264 140gr vld's are calling for a 9" twist, have heard 8" mentioned, this is why I need some ballistic data such as bullet dimensions.

every day's a holiday here

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 00:24:57 (ZULU) 

This formula is called the mil-relation formula and it is the most accurate non-mechanical method of estimating range that we have available to us.

For this formula to be effective, you must know the size of your target in inches (this method can also be used with meters but we Americans are more familiar with inches). Since it is very improbable that you will be able to measure any live target that you might wish to engage, you should get measurements of anything that is standardized. i.e. common door shapes, windows, license plates, etc.
(It is also much easier to "mil" an inanimate object since it is stationary).

Once you know the size of your target in inches, you can utilize the following formula:

inches x .0254 x 1000 divided by the number of mils read in your optics = range to the target.

This method of range estimation, like other methods, requires extensive practice to become proficient.

If you do not know how the mils are broken down in your particular optics, read your TM or owners manual and it should illustrate the breakdown.

This is the exact method we teach students at the US Army Sniper School and it is an accurate and proven method.

Hope this helps.
 

Hope this helps.
SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft. Benning, GA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 00:55:04 (ZULU) 

inches x .0254 x 1000 divided by the number of mils read in your optics = range to the target

Why not simplify this by saying 25.4 instead of the ".0254 x 1000" portion??? Which would make it:

inches x 25.4 divided by the number of mils read in your optics = range to the target.

I'm no math whiz, but in mathmatical terms it would be considered poor form to do it the longer way (".0254 x 1000") so I'm wondering if there is some reason it is presented like that? Just curious.

Does the Army Sniper Scool teach the "quick" version for less precise work? That would be (2000) divided by (height of target in mils) = (range in yards), assuming a 2-yard target height. Or is that outside the doctrine?

By the way, if that's the same SSGT Cady that is in the Chandler's DFA Volume V, which I was just flipping through, I have to say that was some damn fine shooting!!!! Makes my head spin to think about it...

Gotto go, the sun is setting on a dirty AR barrel...
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 03:57:00 (ZULU) 

And you peteR: I'll give a Paladin thingee!! Tell me what Paladin's first name is and I'll give you a crack at trying to catch my trail at Storm Mountain. No Dude - wrong it is not "Wire". It did say "wire Paladin", but what mother would call her kid "Wire". Bubba maybe, but WIRE. Come on!! And what city did our "Have Gun Will Travel" hero reside at? It certainly wasn't Keyser WV.

Nice to see things cooling down here at the Duty Roster. Mike, What a Class Act!! Apology accepted by all - I'm sure!!

Kent: Nice to hear from you again! See you soon. Is Marcy at the Candlewick as "perty" as everyone (especially Scott) says she is?

Gotta go. Tomorrow is Phinally Phriday! Long week glad to see this one come to an end! Take care everyone and stay cool!!

al the Fly-boy from O-hi-er
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Mellowing in the Grand State of , Ohio, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 04:00:34 (ZULU) 

No we do not teach them the less precise methods, i.e. assuming a two yard target. We try to teach them only precision fire, and assumptions do not facililitate accurate shooting.

Every sniper in the US Army is currently issued an AN-PVS-6 Laser Range Finder. This alleviates the range estimation problem, but we ensure students know the mil-relation formula, in case their LRF fails, battery dies, etc.. Murphy is a bastard.

I have never used a "mil-dot" master, but I have heard about it. If anyone could post information on its use, accuracy, and reliability, I would appreciate it.

Yes, that was me in DFA V, the Chandler rifle I fired that day was the finest rifle I have ever held in my hands, bar none. Man that thing could shoot.

Later
 
 

SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning, GA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 11:49:04 (ZULU) 

Never watched much TeeVee as a kid, no time for sitting catatonically leering at a buncha Homo morons playing make believe.
I was too busy shooting real bullets and winning matches. So thar Huh!
But I've got a wire for you.....
"FLY-BOY IN THE WAIRE" Medics bring the KY A-1 dispenser Stat.
 
 

SSG Cady,

Nice post dude!, Next time you hook up with S/C scroll down to the In-Review section and wander theres an article on the Mil-dot Master in there soemwheres.Everyone thats got one uses it and more than once SWEARS BY it! And a lot of these guys are pickier than an IRS auditor.
 

Rollin, Rollin, Rollin, Keep that reloader Rolling..............
ooops!

Chao,

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 12:28:57 (ZULU) 

Yards 27.7
Meters 25.4
R. Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 13:00:51 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the great web site. Looks like a lot of good information from those who really know.
Dusty G. <dustpan@handgunner.net>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 13:05:59 (ZULU) 

Size of a object in Meters X 1000 divided by size of same object in Mils = Range in Meters !

Hey, maybe its so that us Infantry dudaa´s can figure it.

Strong, dumb, waterproof !

"Ende"
 

Torsten <laserco@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 13:33:40 (ZULU) 

As to your question about the Paladin Program; Yup, I'm one of those guys. I've been shooting with Rick Miller for 20 years. As Rick and I (and others) became unhappy with the direction that IPSC was going, we tried to come up with a shooting program that would offer a real-world-type challenge and, most importantly, give the shooter maximum flexibility in how to solve the problem posed. Since people like for things to have names, Rick coined the term "Paladin Program" to describe the concept. Paladin scoring was used in some of the Hackathorn Invitational matches (which evolved into the NTI). Also, the "Vickers count" being used to score IDPA, is largely based on Paladin scoring (with some modifications that I don't view as improvements). Rick also designed a more anatomically correct Paladin target that was an improvement over the IPSC "item" and "option" targets. IPSC world president J.P. Denis, of Belgium, modified the target slightly (with Rick's blessing) and adopted it for IPSC as the "Brussels" target. Rick has never tried to promote or even turn a buck on the Paladin Program. He writes up some of the things we work on in his monthly COMBAT HANDGUNS magazine column, but there's no website, no official merchandise, no secret decoder rings, or anything like that. It seems that, for Rick, just knowing that he has advanced the state of the art in practical pistolcraft is enough. I'm just pleased to have been able to help a bit along the way.

Rosco
Rosco Benson <roscobenson@earthlink.net>
Beavercreek, OH, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 13:56:09 (ZULU) 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news guys, but MIL relation is a parlor trick that works on E-shaped targets that don't move. Ever try doing a mil formula with a 10X scope on a human target that is doing his military business? There are huge problems in mis-estimating the height of the target and the smaller the target the easier this is to do. For example a target that is estimated at 6' high will result in a range calculation of 732 meters, using the MIL formula. Let's say that the target is actually 5'6". Range = 670 meters. Result? Overshot by 20" above the point of aim on the target. Now it has been mentioned that you assume a target to be 1 meter high from the crotch to the top of his head. Safe assumption except the smaller the target is, the easier it is to blow the MIL value on the scope. A 1/4 MIL error (it happens all the time) on a target that is 1.83 meters tall (6') results in a range error of 67 meters.

Another factor that comes into play is MILing a target that is on a slant angle. Targets on a slant have a smaller visual appearance to optics and the naked eye. Assume that you KNOW the height of a target to be 6' tall. If this target were on a 30 degree angle the apparent height of the target would be 5'2" tall (try this with a coke bottle, put a bottle on a table and look at it straight on. Then look at it on an increasing up or down angle, the target looks smaller every time). The result? If you milled the target at at 3.0 mils and used a target height of 6' your range would be 610 meters. The range to target if you do correct for the target height calculates out to 524 meters (this the correct range. This is a big overshoot situation. Dont forget the impact of this error on the effect on the trajectory for a 30 degree angle shot. The range to the target must be multiplied against the Cosine of the angle to the target. This is due to the overall effect of gravity on the bullet in flight in it's relationship to the surface of the earth. Correcting the range to the target for slant angle corrects 524 meters to 453 meters. Now starting from an orignal milling of 610 meters and having a true corrected value of 453 meters is quite significant. Mil relation is inaccurate and the #1 cause of snipers miss-estimating their range to target. Besides it isn't necessary on targets to 650 meters with the .308 rifle.

Comments are welcome. My background is that I am retired Special Forces from 1st SFGA. I was the unit master sniper for 2 years. I also worked at SOTIC at Fort Bragg, NC. from 88 to 92. The method called reverse image zero negates range estimation requirements to a range of 650 meters. If you're interested, let me know.

Hope this didn't come across to brass. I apologize, but I have heard quite enough about this mil relation stuff. Guys, take a girlfriend, friend or wife out and have her walk around at 600 meters and just do "stuff" and try to mil the target. Nuff Said.
 

Trigger <Trigger@drservices.com>
USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:05:50 (ZULU) 

It's nice to see the interest in 6.5mm rounds.

I have some recent data were the borderline goes:

6.5-300Wea., 26" Douglas SS-barrel: (Data from "Vapenjournalen" 8/97)

140gr BarnesX, 74gr MRP/RL22, MV: 3300fps,

140gr BarnesX, 79gr IMR 7828, MV: 3300fps,

156gr Norma, 73gr MRP/RL22, MV: 3200fps,

105gr NoslerP, 82gr MRP/RL22, MV: 3770fps, (!)

The BarnesX bullet increases pressure over regular bullets. I think it is possible to get 3400fps with a molycoated matchbullet with less bearingsurface. Pat, plug 3400fps with the A-max into your computer :-)

The Sierra 155 MK could be used with the 156gr/Norma data. Something for windy conditions?

The 105gr Nosler data could be used for Sierra/Lapua 107gr VLD's, altough I think they will blow apart midair.

The 130gr Norma VLD, BC:.549, should be able to go 3500-3600fps.

If someone has enough money I recomend making 3 identical barrels and some sort of quickchange-setup :-)

I have a BRNO 602-action, 1 round in the chamber an 5 in the mag? :-)
 
 
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:22:44 (ZULU) 

Any relation to Dusty in Memphis? (sorry, couldn't resist.)

You may have some trouble putting a one piece Leupold base on a short-actioned Savage. Leupold claims to make one, but I suspect that it's not out yet, or it's not very widely distributed, because I can't find anyone who can get it. Any two piece mounting system that fits your rifle should fit OK. All though you do run the risk of having the scope on a tiny angle due to the difference in action length (I don't know if this is a real issue, but it's allways a risk when you have to use one rifle's mounting system on another rifle). I ended up putting weaver mounts on my 10FP, but I haven't shot it at long range to see if the scope is usable at distance yet.

Which leads me to my nit for the day: When are these aftermarket and accessory companies going to wake up and start producing things for Savage rifles? God, you can get about 48 different triggers, 326 stocks, and 2,458 scope mounting systems for every variation of the Rem 700. But try putting diddly on a Savage, and you get a blank stare over the counter from the local gunshop clerk.

What are you supposed to do you do if you do not have, or do not want, a Rem 700? The obvious reason is that it is a self sustaining cycle. The aftermarket companies know that more people shoot 700's than Savages, so they make more parts for them. Then people want to buy a rifle, see that 700's are more easily upgradeable, so they buy them. 700's then become even more popular, which just reinforces manufacturers like Jewell or H-S to not bother with the lowely Savage.

Like any industry, it's not about producing great products that are here to benefit us, the consumers, it's about making money. Any of you on this sight that work at any of these aftermarket and accessory companies, please start pushing for Savage gear. It's every bit the rifle that the 700 is, but it's not even given half the chance.

Sorry Dusty, I just couldn't contain myself...

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
minneapolis, MN, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:33:19 (ZULU) 

Sorry if this is a stupid, I'm new to the rifle thing, been more into handguns.
Dusty G <dustpan@handgunner.net>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:50:52 (ZULU) 

Tony,
If the brake is installed properly it should have no effect on accuracy and in most larger caliber will increase accuracy due to the shooter not being beat up by recoil and flenching. There great on the big guns but I hate them because of the blast.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 14:54:03 (ZULU) 

Yes, the two piece mounts should fit fine.

André
Andre
USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 15:09:15 (ZULU) 

Ha! That bit about getting my girlfriend to walk around 600 meters downrange and do stuff while I size her up gave me a chuckle...

I would be interesting in hearing about reverse zero image. If you get a second, please post more info.

Many times I don't actually range off of a moving object, such as a soldier working. I tend to range off of the most stable object withing a few feet of the target. (Such as a tire or a window)

Another mention would be your sloping shot reference. You are quite right about the "compression" of objects at an angle. Negate this by using the windage MIL scale on the scope. As long as you're not oblique to that object there shouldn't be a problem.

Keep in mind that I am a civilian who's never fired a shot in anger, so I don't have any knowledge of doctrine or formalized training in these matters.
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 15:40:50 (ZULU) 

Post away on reverse imaging, if i'm curious guess most of the rest would like to hear about it too!
 

Roscoe,
Cool, and Welcome! Bring in some of your buddies. I'm also very interested in practical applications of handguns to solvable defensive scenarios. Since this is pretty much rifles,E-mail info to me and I would be most appreciative!
 

Fly-Boy,

Nyah-Nyah! Told you so! ;-)

Gooch,
E-mail me about your CZ, I'm interested ...............

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big-City, By-Gawd, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 15:45:44 (ZULU) 

Molly: This is more of a question than anything else. Has anyone else experienced a cold bore shot inconsistentcy with Molly. I have and it has forced me to leave it alone for my working rifle. To bad I hate cooper fouling.

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 15:54:05 (ZULU) 

Thanks!
Lee Crestling <shooter7@hotmail.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 16:04:23 (ZULU) 

Comment about laser range finders first. Ever heard of laser detecters? For about 100.00 you can get a detector made that detects and gives an audible warning to a laser hit from a range finder. Cheap protection for high value targets. Not only will you NOT get an accurate range, but you're mission is compromised before you even shoot. There is another little thing called laser counter measures. So don't put alot of faith in laser rangefinders. And batteries are the least of the problem.

The Point Blank Zero and the Reverse Image Zero are two methods of engagement that use the dimensions of the trajectory to engage targets of unknown distance; without determining that distance first. The concept of the Reverse Image Zero isn't all that new. It was only recently rediscovered and modified to apply to modern rifles with better trajectory performance. The earliest reference that I could locate to the concept of Reverse Image Zero (referred to in this material as the Negative Angle Sighting is in "The Theory of the Rifle and Rifle Shooting". Lieutenant H. Ommundsen advanced the idea of a negative angle sighting towards the beginning of 1912. Sir George Greenhill advocated it in a lecture at the Institution of Electrical Engineers on the 19th of January 1912.

"With a certain rifle and ammunition select a trajectory, the greatest height of which is twice that of the target desired to hit. For instance, with the service short rifle and MarkVII ammunition an 11 foot high trajectory (that is to say, a trajectory, the maximum ordinate of which is twice the height of an average man) is given with a range of something under 700 yards. Using the combination of rifle and ammunition mentioned, this would be the trajectory selected for the negative angle sight."

The rifle and ammunition that the author is referring to is the .303 Enfield rifle. The concept is that the shooter looks at his target downrange. He then mentally projects where the top of the head of the mirror image of that target would be. As noted in the material, the trajectory selected is for twice the height of the target. The standard target height was a 6' man. The trajectory for the .303 Enfield that is roughly double that 6' high man is the maximum ordinate for 700 yards. The shooter placed a setting on his iron sight for 700 yards. Then by aiming at the head of the reverse image of the target, the round will not be higher than the height of the human target downrange.

To introduce this method we will again refer to the range of 700 meters as was mentioned in the early text in 1912. The first difference to note is that we are dealing with 700 meters. This is because the bullet drop compensator used on the M-24 system is graduated in hundreds of meters. The following ballistic facts are presented:

§ The Maximum Ordinate for the .303 Enfield round at 700 yards is 11'6" above line of sight.
§ The Maximum Ordinate for the 7.62mm Special Ball round at 700 meters is 73" above line of sight.

There is a huge difference in the ballistic trajectory between the cartridge of 1912 and the current use sniper cartridge. The maximum ordinate for the M118 round is almost exactly half that of the .303 round. How is this significant? The shooters that had the .303 round and iron sights had the problems mentioned above. Those being; targets difficult to see and identify clearly, iron sights, and windage holdoff problems. Current snipers have precision optical aiming instruments that allow them to see the target much more clearly than with iron sights. This is significant because with the maximum ordinate being only 6 feet and the target size being 6', the bullet never rises above the targets height from a range of 0 meters to a range of 700 meters. The picture on the left shows the point of aim that is required for a shot on a target between 50 and 675 meters.

By aiming at the targets feet, you are assured that the bullet NEVER RISES ABOVE THE TARGETS HEAD all the way downrange to impact. Of course, at the range of 700 meters, the round will land at the targets feet, just where the shooter is aiming. This technique that was pioneered in 1912 (officially) was tough to work with the sights of the time. The ammunition was also of poor performance and had very high maximum ordinates at the ranges this method was developed for.
The image here depicts the trajectory and it's approximate points of strike on targets between 100 and 700 meters. As you can see, there is a danger point in the range where the round at 400 meters is at its highest point in the flight. The round at 400 meters will strike in the head area. This is the narrowest part of the target and observers must be aware of the subtlest winds when targets are around 400 meters. One way to deal with this is to give windage data to the shooter for 400-meter winds and let the shooter determine if the target is in that danger zone. He then applies the wind as he feels fit based on the range to the target.

The good thing about this technique is that it isn't at all limited to any one cartridge or range for that matter. The size of your target or a part of that target only limits it. Refer to the .50 caliber Mark 211, Mod-0 ammunition table in Chapter 3, page 14. Look at the column for Maximum Ordinate in Feet. Trace down that column under you find the first elevation that is nearest to, but not more than 6'. The range for that max. ord. is 800 meters. If you set a sight setting of 25.50 MOA for 800 meters and hold at the bottom or feet of the target downrange, you will put a round through that target as long as he is somewhere between 100 and 750 meters. At ranges past 750 meters, the rounds are below knee height. In this case, the max ord is slightly lower than for M118 ammunition, and you gain another 100 meters in killing range without ever determining the range to the target.

Another method can be used if you have a very high performance flat shooting rifle. In this example, a .300 Winchester Magnum shooting a 185 Grain Lapua Match bullet at 3250 fps is used. In this case, we are only going to use a portion of the human target frame. We are going to shift our point of aim from the feet to something more easily seen and located on the target. That is the crotch of the target. With this load, we have a very flat trajectory. The trajectory is very flat for a distance of 700 meters and this allows us to rise out point of aim to the crotch level.

We would do this because our targets are not expected to be presented past 650 meters or so. A flash MIL reading that shows the target to be of a greater value than 1.5 mils confirms that the target is within 666 meters. This method works so much faster because the shooter and observer both know that the scope is set for a Reverse Image Zero condition. They both know the point of aim and the maximum range that they can engage targets. The team can do a precise range determination on the ground using triangulation to a non-specific point on the earth.

Whenever a target pops up anywhere between the team and that pre-ranged point on the ground, they simply hold on the crotch and the observer gives a wind call for a range he thinks is close to the target. The whole time from spotting the target to the first shot going downrange is 6 seconds or faster depending on the team's experience in this method. That is much quicker than some school's standard of 1 minute from the time the observer starts talking the shooter onto the target till the time the first shot goes off.

This 300 Magnum load has a powerful and flat trajectory. If the operator wants to push his range out further, he can drop his point of aim to the bottom of the target and the trajectory still stays below the top of the targets head (max ord = 60 inches). You will be able to engage targets with disabling and killing shots to a range of 850 yards.

The Reverse Image Zero is quite a bit different from the original concept that was presented in 1912 by Lt. Ommundsen. The theory was a good and sound one that is very difficult to execute with iron sights even when using cartridges of the power mentioned above. The big technology boost that changed all of that was the advent of optical sights. One can easily expand on the methodology. Image that you are training snipers overseas and those snipers don't have optical sights that with bullet drop compensators or target elevation and windage knobs the Leupold & Stevens Mark IV, M3 or M1 design. There are many countries with sniper rifles with standard hunting scopes. By analyzing their terrain, tactical situation and the sizes of their adversary targets you can determine what is, a good reverse image zero range for that area.

If I were in SE Asia as a sniper with a 7.62mm rifle and the average shot range were only 500 meters, I might zero the gun dead on at 550 meters. By aiming at the waist of the target, I will be able to hit all targets between my barrel and 500 meters downrange. For the longer range shots, I'd do what I would do with any other weapon; I'd get an accurate range and make a precision engagement.

That's the gist of it. IT definately works. Precision engagement is fine. Most military targets don't need a head shot. There's alot to be said about creating wounds that tie down more enemy personnel, provided your enemy is one that cares about their wounded. Under most combat situations, a shot between the crotch and the head is sufficient. Care to disagree with Carlos Hatchcock? Pretty much his opinion also. There is no substitue for precision engagements, reality is that you don't usually have the time.

Trigger50
 

Trigger50 <Trigger@drservices.com>
USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 16:42:32 (ZULU) 

There were some mentions in some of the feedback that talked about using other objects near the target. To a sniper in a field environment, that usually isn't an available option. Objects in the urban environment are fine as long as angle to target is not more than 15 degrees, otherwise you get "object compression".

Using the width of a human target works okay out to about 300 meters. Pull out a calculator and start checking what happens on a target that is 19" or 20" wide and you mistake the mil reading by a quarter or a tenth at 600 meters and you see the huge error that is possible. The difference in the MIL of only .15 mils is an error of 160 meters. Width is okay at short short range with very high power optics.

Trigger
Trigger50 <Trigger@drservices.com>
USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 16:59:39 (ZULU) 

Thanks for that information. You right, this theory has been around and in use for a while I just hadn't heard it called reverse zero imaging. I think this is very quick and easy for the ranges you're discussing.

One thing that I'm not sure where you stand on. When I establish hide, how do I properly prepare my range card? I take your comments on MIL being inaccurate to mean that you don't feel they should be used beyond 300 yards. With this line of thinking how do I know if my target is standing within my predetermined range or do I have to calculate (again, how would you propose I derive this information) the exact range and take a precission shot?

I can see where MIL guesstimation can send a shot high when engaging over 600 yards, but certainly MILs are more accurate than "thumbing" the target for range.
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 17:17:51 (ZULU) 

All: Check out the A-Square reloading manual. It is worth far more than for just that purpose. Great information, entertaining, and some of the most interesting cartridges you've ever seen. For example, the .577 Tyrannosaur, 750 gr bullet at 2400 fps. Good reading in any case.
Fred
People's Rep. of, MD, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 17:44:51 (ZULU) 

Trigger, like I said I use the Mils for PD work and they work great. I acnt settle for the any hit is enough and I don't see why anyone should. The system you describe is fine for mass attacks but I prefer a more precise way for most work. Now I am going to practice what you suggest because if I am ever in a big Oh S... I might need it. Thanks for info I will use it. Mike
Mike M <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 17:59:04 (ZULU) 

Time to go practice some ranging... And I'm hoping that someone is going to review the new Bushnell compact 800 rangefinder real soon. Anyone?
 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 19:20:35 (ZULU) 

Trigger's system really has little to do with mils. It's much simpler:

Let's say that you have a load that when you zero the sights at 700 yards, will have a max trajectory height of 40 inches. In other words, if you aim at the feet of a person standing 700 yards down range, you will hit the feet at 700 yards. If that same man is standing at 400 meters, you will hit about 40 inches higher (the beltline?) at max rise when you aim at the feet. You sights are dead on at 700 yards, but shoot 40 inches high at 400 yards, and back down to virtualy dead on at the muzzle.

What this means as far as the "system" is is that if, for example, knowing the above, you were to aim, not at the feet, but at the mid thighs, you would be assured of a hit somewhere between the thighs and the head, regardless of the distance to target. The bullet will be contained within a 40 inch rise. If you put the top of the 40 inches at the top of the head, then at 400 yards it will be a head shot. At 150 and 550 a body shot, and at 0 and 700, a thigh shot (height minus 40 inches), all by maintaining the same aiming point on the thigh.

The idea is that if you are in a situation where you don't NEED a clean single head shot kill, you can maximize the odds for a good debilitating shot in the body or head by understanding the characteristics of your round's trajectory and taking advantage of placing the range of that trajectory in a vital range on the body. With this system, the ultimate range to the target is irrelevant, because no matter where he is, he will be hit within that predetermined range on the body.

Obviously, this is not target shooting, and will not help you hit a 1 foot square target at any distance, unless you know its range (but you would hit a 40 inch target at any distance <700 meters). It also will not account for wind, slope, etc. but you may not need dead on accuracy in every case. As always, know your target and your mission parameters.

André

Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
mpls, MN, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 20:59:46 (ZULU) 

At this point, the 140 gr Sierra MK is the only bullet that will fit in my M700 SA mag at the bullet seating depth I want. The loads with the 142 MK, Berger 140 VLD, and Hornady 140 Amax are too long. To have ogive touching rifling or just off rifling, the above are too long for mag. loading.

A longer action ( or better put ) a longer mag lenght would be good. I won't complain too much because I chose to do this suspecting this might happen.

I agree with Pat re: wishing for a longer action so all would be "feedable".

Thanks to the gentlemen posting about the different technical aspects. Trigger, SSGT Cady. The truth is, I haven't, as of yet, been able to practice with concepts and tools like this, not really. I'll read stuff like these posts though and it gets the neurons firing... all three of them.

I appreciate your contribution. It adds pahzazz... (pahzazz?) to what is already my favorite website.

Interesting stuff.. Thanks.

Will Adams:

Is the Eufala match going to be at Ft. Benning? Same day ..3/27 ? Did I hear that right?
 

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 22:13:35 (ZULU) 

In the Norwegian National guard I was issued a M98 based sniperrifle called KV59F1 chambered for 7.62NATO. This is an old style matchrifle with 28" hammeforged freefloating barrel in a military style stock with handguard, similar to a M1A match. Ironsights were Anschutz front globe and Parker Hale or Busk matchquality diopter mounted on action rear bridge. Scope was a Hertel&Reuss 4X32 mounted in a VERY rigid QD sidemount. The scope was offset to the left and aiming was done by the left eye. When the scope was mounted I could see through the match ironsights with the right eye and trough the scope with the left eye without moving my head. The rifle could be loaded with stripperclips with the scope mounted. My rifle was made in 1964 and was in unfired condition when I got it in 1985. I had to let it go last year when I discharged. Access to G3's were also closed...

The QD scopemount had no POI-change. The scope had a german no.1 reticle, 3 heavy posts, and adjustments that moved the reticle around in the field of view. The turret was no good to use in the field. The scopemount had also W&E-adjustment.

With no fast elevation-adjustment and a no.1 reticle that definetly is not ideal to "hold over" at long ranges I went for a 500m zero. Aimingpoint was crotch with regular 147gr Raufoss NATO-ammo. This setup is extremely fast in use agaist enemies. No brainwork. A heavy post is the fastest reticle in use. 99% of olympic and UIT-style moving target shooters use heavy posts in their scopes.

With reticle dead centre in the scope I zeroed the rifle with the scopemount at 500m in perfect conditions. With rifle zeroed I shot several groups at 100, 200 and 300m. I "engraved" the difference between POA and POI at these ranges on the rifle. This let me check or rezero the rifle at any available range. In addition I got an extra sidemount and had another private scope zeroed as well.

The ironsights were zeroed at 200m. The frontsight had a post for fieldtarget, not a ringsight(?). The rear matchsight had very accurate W&E-adjustments and ballistic tables and settings for formal 2/300m shooting were also "engraved" on the rifle. The very fine adjustable rearsight insert could be removed. Doing this let me have a 5mm ghostring rearsight. The very long line of sight eliminates most errors. I've got 95/100 on a 300m UIT-target prone with sling using the ghostring(bull is 4"/10cm). The beauty of this was that in some sniper-competitions the weather was so bad that scopes were useless. Still they couldn't cancel the matches because snipers with old style rifles with ironsights were still shooting and hitting :-)

The KV59A1 is a bulletproof sniper. My rifle shot .80moa with regular NATO-ammo. Mauser M98 action. High rate of fire with clips. No mirageproblems from hot barrel due to offset scope. Match-quality bulletproof ironsights. This is a sniperrifle for war, not the shootingrange :-)

With the scope detached and carried in a hard case you are battleready for a very long time. On a skipatrol with a rifle with a permanently mounted scope you're out of action within 24 hours.
 
 
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 23:12:35 (ZULU) 

Sierra 6.5mm molycoated MatchKings are on sale in Norway now.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 23:20:35 (ZULU) 

This mil relation formula slamming has gone in a bad direction.

We are getting into voodoo here.

Been doing this for a few years and the mil relation formula WORKS!! Does it have limitations? Yes it does! Yes I've used the mildots on a human moving target. Its called patience and being quick on the mil scale when he stops long enough to mil, then you mil him again and again if you have to. You find a vehicle nearby and mil it. You work the formula a couple of times and compare to other objects you have nereby. If you work it enough and practice enough you can very good at it. Its called training.

A well trained sniper will also know his ballistics and understand trajectory, danger space, holdoffs etc. Numerous times I and other snipers have just left a 500m or 600yd zero on a rifle and held high or low for quick shots or even as an alternative to dialing on a zero in multi-target environments. If I can determin 100-300 400-500 and 600-700 yards I really only have to worry about 3 holds for torso shots.

Before we had mil dots in scopes we had to rely on eyes, maps, guestimation, and mil scales in bino's. When the dots came out in the Unertl we were excstatic! Now everyone takes them for granted and guys ping on them as parlour games and being curerntly "in vogue".

They are a tool and like any real artisan a sniper must understand the limitations and proper use of his tools. The problem with measuring targets at extreme angles has long been known. I've been meaning to figure out mathmatically how to correct for this and triggers comments have nudged me on to figuring this out. Okay you math wizzes give me a correction factor or someshit here.

Not pinging on you Trigger. If doctrine is ate up then it needs to be changed. But I don't think this is the case here.

Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 23:36:17 (ZULU) 

In response to your first post on the mil-relation formula. Mil relation is definitely not a parlor trick and yes it does work.

The first reason you gave that it does not work is the difficulty with reading the mils on a live and moving target.

Granted, this is difficult, but with sufficient practice you will learn to read the mils accurately when the target stops. To make things easier the sniper must measure inanimate objects. In an urban setting it is very easy to find standardized items to measure, i.e. road signs, coke machines, common doors, wnidows, etc. In a "typical" military scenario, a sniper must have measurements from enemy vehicles, weapons, etc.

The second reason given was the effect of the angle to the target. This is a common sense thing, if you are at a verticle angle to the target, then you must mil the target horizontally, the size of the target from side to side will not appear different, and vice-versa if the target is at an oblique angle to you, you must measure the vertical length of the target.

Thanks for the post on reverse zero imaging,very informative, we have used this technique but I was never aware that it had a name. Any sniper who studies his art, had better know the trajectory of the particular bullet he is firing.

The reverse zero imaging technique is also a good technique if your target is standing or exposing himself enough to allow you to use this at varying ranges. Yes, we want our snipers to hit a man size target to the extent of their weapon system, but we train them to engage with precision fire. This is definitely needed in countersniper ops, urban environments, and peacekeeping missions to reduce collateral damage and to be ensured of first round incapacitation.

I forgot to tell you that the mil-relation formula I posted will give you the estimated range in meters (our BDC on the M3A is in meters).

Trigger, I am not trying to argue about which estimation method is the best. I know that the mil-relation formula does work. It does have limitations, but it is still the best technique we have. Any new sniper / shooter who is reading this post should try the various techniques and use what works best for your ops.

Later,

SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning, GA, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 01:29:33 (ZULU) 

Several months ago, Trigger and I discussed this subject. Several weeks later, in low light [very early evening], light mist rain, a buddy and I played a game involving silhouettes on stakes, roughly our height, at various planted ranges [just planted here and there]. What amazed me most was the acqusition time. I am sure some of the more trained gunners would smoke me..and they could use any of 10 ranging systems. For this old dumb hick though, it really was an eye opener. Solid hit on each.

Now, the question. This talk of precision shots. For you guys that have faced weapons pointing back at you, if you are acquiring a target at say, 500-600-700
yards / meters, moving, is the head shot really the best shot? I understand the desire for first shot incapacitation, but where does the risk / reward shift to a solid torso hit? I do know that in situations like Mike and of LE's are in, there are numerous reasons why the pumpkin is a must, but that is correspondingly at closer distances. I dunno, kinda confused here:) Excuse the ignorant ramble.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 03:04:20 (ZULU) 

A) Take the known size of a target and multiply it by the cosine of the angle you are observing at to get the corrected tgt size.

B) Then work the formula using the corrected tgt size.

C) Take the answer from "B" then multiply it by the cosine again to get the corrected range.

6 foot target at 45 deg = 4.25 foot target
72 inch target at 30 deg = 62.4 inch target

I then asked Bruce if the mildot master can do this calculation and guess what! IT CAN!!!!

Right column, left window is normally used to get distance. In this case use it for tgt size i.e. 400 yds becomes 4 inches/40 inches/400 inches, 4 meters etc just keep the decimal point fixed in your mind. Line "400" up with the Target Range index line. Read corrected size at the degree of slope index line.

Example: Target is 35.0 inches tall at 50 deg. Line up 350 at the Target Range index line. Read 22.5 inches as the corrected target size(225) at the 50 deg slope index line. Whoa nellie!! He..could..go..all..the..way!

The mil dot master has more uses than 50' section of 550 cord man! We are working on a card that will give all of the handy dandy uses of the thing.

Old dog Bruce. Precision doesn't have to mean a head shot. In my book it means point-of-aim/point-of-impact. If I have a 1 moa SWS I should be able to blow a medulla out at 100 yds, put a round through the heart at 400 yds and hit a chest at 800 yards. Its all situational. Its like some authors ping on military snipers as "area fire weapons". BM!!! Yes I say Bowel Movement! If hitting a man-sized target at 1000 yards is "area fire" then I'll take my lashings in the town square, but I don't think so. Military snipers are trained to quarter the available target when aiming at combat targets to maximize hit probability.

And who says a wounded target is as good as a kill? BM again! Snipers aim to kill! Mindset, mindset, mindset!! One shot, one serious booboo? Don't think so. We might not get the kill, we might wound. But the mindset is "Shoot to kill".

Hey, I'm sensitive. I might go for a head shot so my target doesn't have to go through life with a colostomy bag.

Finally we are getting back to sniper shit on sniper country!

Keep the skin thick guys.

Kent "butt-stock" Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 04:08:55 (ZULU) 

Thanks Very Much Guys,
This is just the kinda stuff us dumber than rocks knuckledraggers need! Back on target and tracking...........
Tell us more about a "Flash Mil Reading" this is getting better than a date with Barbara the Nailer Dudes!

Chao!

peteR

doing a little midnight Cuttin' and pastin' to disk in By-Gawd West Virginny!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 05:23:23 (ZULU) 

Thanks!
Lee Crestling  <shooter7@hotmail.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Friday, March 05, 1999 at 16:04:23 (ZULU)

I had my rifle rebuilt by them in the early nineties and they did a great job. It is a Remington 700BDL that was rebuilt by Gale McMillan in the early 80s by a northern AZ PD as a SWAT
gun. Not changed much cosmetically at the time, mostly recrowning, lapping the bore and bolt lugs, bedding into a McMillan M40 stock (one of the originals dating to the first Marine Corps
contract, from what I can tell), and adding a Redfield 4-12x40 with Redfield mounts & rings, and installing a solid stainless steel magazine follower. Original owner scratched the ballistics for
LC M118 on the left side. No use now, but a clever idea that you can lose & won't wash off.

Anyway, at that time AWC was on the leading edge of challenging our beliefs about short barreled rifles, in some cases extremely short. They built the guns for our Special Assignments Unit,
the Phoenix SWAT team, at 19" and they were fine out to 800+. They claimed cutting to as short as 12.75" didn't hurt ballistics that badly if you looked at it as a 5-600 yard gun max and
specifically retested and recorded at known ranges. They were right.

It might sound odd, but I'm an artist with a major metro newspaper. I don't do long range as a career (although my first job was working for Gale McMillan in the old G. McMillan & Co.
shop, any late 80s McMillanites out there?), and can only dedicate so much time & money to it in training. I don't use my gear as often as some, but when I do it's used in earnest and used
hard. My personal effective limit under field conditions is about 5-600 yards. People that can go beyond 600 with consistency haveare artists in their own way, and they are fewer and farther
between than you might think outside of the military : ) I rarely shoot past 300 myself, and never have shot past 500.

With this in mind, I chose to rebuild mine into a very short, lighter, really handy precision rifle. It's 12.75" heavy barrel does not shift point of impact, and I'm still able to hold minute of
angle under good field conditions to 500 yards when I do my job. I had them shorten and recrown the barrel, then had them thread and silver solder their HyperDyne comp to meet the 16" legal
minimum. They had this setup in a couple of shop guns as proof it worked. I can not tell you how light, balanced and handy this rifle is versus its old M40A1 configuration. Muzzle blast is
wicked from the sides and front, but the HyperDyne was designed to direct blast and sound pressure away from the shooter. Alas, our friends in the ATF decided this constituted a suppressor and
AWC saw no reason to make a comp you had to get a stamp for. Mine was grandfathered in. I wouldn't suggest a bare muzzle shorter than 16".

They refinished the rifle in some sort of baked epoxy paint finish. Not as cool as BlackT or some other finishes, but it was one-third the cost and has done its job through rain, snow, dust and
solvent. If it ever gets badly worn, I'll have them refinish it. They also supplied and mounted a Leupold Vari-X III with the blobby but adequate mil-dots, Leupold's own Quick-Release rings
and mounts (the only major component that's ever broken on the gun, twice in a row! Replaced with the far superior Leupold QRW Warne-type rings on a GG&G base, and it does hold zero
well). Also recommended and supplied an Eagle butt cuff/carrier and advice on getting rid of the zipper pull and putting on a little paracord loop instead. They provided an Eagle scope cover and
recommended sewing a carry handle on the top, which works exceedingly well. These were both strongly advised well before they caught on with everyone else. I eventually purchased an Eagle
drag mat from them as well. They supplied the best version of the Harris bipod made, with solid aluminum leg struts with notch cutouts similar to the idea on the Parker-Hale, as well as the
swiveling mount. They make and supplied a QD T-handle to replace the attachment screw. They converted the bolt handle to the Steyr SSG-PII big version, which I think makes bolt throw
much faster and more reliable under stress. Downside: it digs into your back more when slung. Finally, they refinished the stock Remington alloy floorplate in a crinkle-finish baked on paint
that's also held up pretty well.

I should add, this configuration can be a medium-weight interdiction rifle fully decked out, and in two minutes I can quick detach the bipod and replace the Leupold with an Aimpoint Comp-M
or 2X Leupold shotgun scope and have the equivalent of a heavyish Scout rifle. Speaking of which, a couple years ago I added a 3-point Ching Sling custom made by The Wilderness Tactical
Products. In my opinion this is the best all around answer to the rifle sling for a medium or long-rangefield gun. They also developed and make the original Giles tactical sling for ARs, AUGs,
etc. I won't go into the details, but there are many resons their stuff is better than any of their imitators. It's all in the details, and they usually get them right.

So, was I satisfied with AWC? Very. I think AWC was, and may still be, one of the best values around in rebuilding. They were honest with me about real-world performance of man and
equipment, and didn't screw me by selling me gingerbread or overcharging for what I had done. In the early 90s they were the most innovative, risk-taking shop around. I can't honestly speak
for them today. The two outstanding and influentialgunsmiths that worked with me are both gone now. I'm told the people still there are primarily into the suppressor end. Rob Anderson chose
to pursue a photography career. You'll see his work in the AWC catalog and Jeff Cooper's "The Art of the Rifle." Terry Schmidt left and formed his own company, DVC Armaments. They are
strategically aligned with GG&G. I can recommend his rifle work highly, and am told his titanium suppressors are quite good. They are both real-world stand-up guys with law enforcement
SWAT and military experience, and I would say they are trustworthy, honorable guys.

I have also had good experiences with McMillan Bros. (the REAL McMillans), NOT Harris Gunworks, a.k.a. Harris-McMillan, etc. We Arizonans have been blessed with an unusual abundance of training facilities, rifle shops and independence.
Some shops are great, some bad, some good but a total pain in the ass and overpriced. Unless you're here you may not have access to the scuttlebutt and you're at a disadvantage. I won't trash
anyone's shop in this forum. If anyone would like to personally e-mail me for the local gossip, and that's often what it is as I don't have personal experience with all these shops, I will share
what I know or have been told by reputable sources. Buyer beware, mileage may vary.

Hope this hasn't been too long. Just my two cents worth.

P.S.--Gooch is right. Pistol, shotgun, or rifle, precision doesn't always mean the head or the neat A-zone on the chest; it's situational. Frankly, sometimes you have to think center of available mass, take whatever piece you can get, and quarter the target. Don't get hung up on 1000 yard head shots.
Michael Novack <mnovack@amug.org>
Phoenix, AZ, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 05:53:03 (ZULU) 

One correction. I didn't say that "all a sniper had to do was...."

I'm not a sniper, never was, don't intend to be, so I won't presume to tell snipers what to do.

"all a SHOOTER has to do is...." is more like it....I'll leave it to the pros to tell the pros what to do!

Gooch, when you get that card done, don't forget that it slices, dices, and makes julienne fries. And is Y2K compliant.

Al O.: Why did you discount my price to the Armed Forces? Have to rewrite the bid now.
Bruce Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 07:17:27 (ZULU) 

Mil dots. They ain't the be all, end all, but for me and the guys I train it beats a kick in the teeth. We need to know them 'cause SSG Cady is right. Murphy sucks. We broke two PVS-6's in the past 5 months, and they have not been replaced yet. I had never thought about the reverse image stuff before but it will now be SOP for when we are not actually engaging a tgt. Personally I will always try for the most precise shot possible, esp. when shooting at equip., but all this stuff is about tools in the bag. More tools you have, the more likely you have the right one for the situation.
ED <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, Republic of Korea - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 09:47:56 (ZULU) 

Gentlemen, I say again, it is time for a new book similar to Plaster's. Call it Sniper A-Z or what ever. Make it a notebook style book that supplements can be added as new info comes available. Make it semi-weatherproof so that you can take it to the range etc. I wouldn't mind paying a $100 bucks for a book that would start with selecting a weapon to dropping the critter in the crosshairs. You've already got the start with Hot Tips and Cold Shots. Just from the posts in the roster, you can tell that there is a need for information. For that matter, you could write the book, put it on a CD and sell the CD, no publishing costs. The purchaser could print it himself.

Muchas grassyass, Bolt

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 13:20:22 (ZULU) 

Fire up a program called 'notepad' or your favorite editor on your
windows box. Highlight the section of the roster that you want
to capture. Then select 'Edit' ---> copy on your browser.

Click in the notepad or whatever editor you are running, Select
'Edit' ---> paste. Once you do that, not only should you be able
to print, but you can also save that little tidbit into a file
for future reference.

GoodLuck!

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 13:41:25 (ZULU) 

For your information here are the points of impact over a 600 meter range using the reverse image zero method.

100 yds = mid-thigh, i know that's worthless, but at that range you have bigger problems.
200 yds = zyphoid process
300 yds = heart
400 yds = head (forehead)
500 yds = just below the heart
600 yds = in the guts (don't forget the 1/2 MOA left correction for spin drift at this range.

The point is that these are all killing shots that if you did use the MIL formula and did it right, those points of attack listed above are about as good as you want. Everyone of those hits kills a person. Try this. Put a 6' sihlouette downrange. start at 100 meters witha 700 meter zero on the gun and walk back, drop and shoot five rounds every 100 meters to a range of 650. Seeing is believing.

CPL. Greaves, For you guys in Korea this method works great, been there a few times on deployments with 1st SFGA. Figuring that 80% of the time you'll be shooting downhill your trajectory will be lower because of the effect of gravity on the flight of the bullet. Your range to engage targets only gets better.

For example if you are shooting on a 20 degree angle downhill, your effective range after correction for slant angle (COS of angle X true range) is 657 meters. That's the number to put on the M3A scope. Your maximum ordinate with that setting is only 5'5" and you can hit targets to 700 meters with a bottom of foot hold. For you guys in Korea i don't imagine that seeing the whole target will be a problem because i don't see the NKs laying around much if the balloon goes up. Agree?

Using the width of the target for milling. Assuming the shoulders to be an average of 20", let's do a couple of problems. The range to target with a 1.75 MIL reading (and we all know when it gets that small, that targets damn small) the range is 290 meters. With a reading of 2 MILS the range is 254. Thats quite a disparity for only a .25 mil deviation. Try this error at the longer ranges. For a reading of 1 MIL the range is 508 meters. If you used a .9 mil reading the range comes out to be 564 meters. That's a miss guys. That's only a .10th mil error. Hell the best of us makes those mistakes. With the low power of the systems currently in use, the width method is no good on human targets for the longer ranges. As for 300-400 meter shooting, use a Point Blank Zero with "3" on the gun and hit everything to 375 meters within a 10" circle. POint of aim is center mass.

I am going to pass on a method called triangulation. this is an advanced method used to find the range to a target (actually a point on the ground) this works great for range cards before the bad guys arrive or you are setting up your rifles to support a direct action raid on a target.

Many times a sniper team may arrive in an operational where there the target has not yet arrived. Indeed, in many special operations situations, unless the target is material and anchored to the earth, the team will try to arrive long before the target arrives. This allows them to set up the shot on their terms instead of the enemy's terms. They can set up the shot along the dominant wind line and thereby reduce their crosswind problems. They can also set up the shot so that the sun is behind the sniper team and reduce the target's security apparatus ability to identify and located the sniper team.

Triangulation is a method that uses a baseline at the sniper's position and a compass or other angle measuring device (M-2 compasses work better than the military lensetic). This method works when using two operators the best, although one man can do the job. Triangulation measures the angular difference from a line that goes from the gun to the target and a line from a point 90 degrees to that line but between 20 and 50 meters to the right or left of that gun. To do this formula you need a scientific calculator. As mentioned way back in Chapter 3, I recommend the Hewlett Packard HP20S. The appendix to this book contains a program sequence for programming this formula into a HP20S. The key that is important here is the SIN key. This is an extremely accurate method of range determination. Its main use prior to target arrival is setting up a highly detailed range card. Here is the formula:

Range to Target (Line AC) = (AB) X SIN of angle B divide by SIN of angle C

AC = is the gun to target line.
AB = is the baseline cord length or in the later application, the size of the target.
The baseline cord length has an important impact on the accuracy of the range determination. The larger the baseline when using a compass, the more the accurate the ranging. A GPS makes this process easier. The following cord lengths are based on experience. The operators take a visual range estimation and base their cord length on this estimation.

§ 0-400 Meters = 10-meter cord length
§ 400-600 Meters = 20-meter cord length
§ 600-700 Meters = 30-meter cord length
§ 700-Infinity = 40 or more cord length

A HTI sniper team moves into an area looking for an FFP. They will return to their objective rally point after they obtain some visual Target Reference Points (TRP). Before team lies a major road intersection but there is nothing in that intersection that gives them anything to determine a range on using Angular Deflection or Mil Relation. The team leader directs one of the team members to pull out a roll of "low stretch" cord that is knotted every 5 meters. They are going to execute a triangulation to the intersection that they can build a range card on. At this point they are only gathering minimal data so they can complete their calculations later. The members take a look at the situation and visually estimate a range (and some map use) of about 1400 meters to the intersection.

1. One of the shooters pulls out a compass and a stake that he prepared earlier at the ORP. He drives this stick in the ground at the proposed gun position. He lays his compass on the top of the stake and notes the azimuth to the target. In this case he gets an azimuth of 320 deg. Magnetic (5688 MILS). This establishes line AC.

2. He needs to establish the line AB. By adding 90 degrees to the compass setting he gets a desired azimuth of 50 degrees M. (888 MILS) azimuth. He turns the compass until 50 degrees falls under the indicator line on the compass face. This establishes the AB line angle.

3. Another team members starts at the gun position and runs the cord along this 50 deg. Line. He stays online by directions given him by the compass man. He has determined that due to the terrain and situation a 50-meter baseline cord be used. As he reaches the 50-meter measurement, the compass man gives him a final correction to keep him online as he drives a stake at the Point B of the AB cord.

4. The compass man then moves to Point B where he lays his compass on the stake. He takes an azimuth to the intersection and notes this azimuth. A better method is for one man to line up the compass and a second man takes the reading off the compass face. He gets a direct magnetic reading of 318 deg. Magnetic (5653 MILS). This is a deflection of 2 degrees.

NOTE: A half-degree error in this method results in a difference of 130 meters in the range to the target. An M-2 compass works better because of it's finer resolving ability using MILS over Degrees.

5. The recon team moves back to the ORP to finish their calculations and finalize their plans. In the ORP, the compass man begins his calculations to get the range to the target. Here are the specifics:

§ AB = 50 Meters
§ Angle B = 88 Degrees / SIN = .99939
§ Angle C = 2 Degrees / SIN = .03490

AC = (50) X SIN B (.99939)divide by SIN C (.03490)

AC = 49.96950 divide by.03490

AC = 1431.790 Meters from Gun to Intersection / Initial Elevation Setting of 71.00 MOA for Mark 211, Mod-0 under Standard Atmospheric Conditions.

6. At the team leaders convenience the shooters can place preliminary elevation data on their gun as the team leader gathers MET and ENV conditions in the target area. Operators can be further dispatched to take wind readings in the area. It is NOT recommended that operators go down into the target area and disturb that area. You never know what security apparatus may move into the area before your shot.

Some tricks can aid the compass man in lying in the AC and AB lines. With the naked compass, it is tough to get an accurate reading. Here are some tricks of the trade.

§ Use a Silva compass mounted to a small wooden or plastic board. The compass is mounted exactly parallel along a centerline in the board. A low power optical sight such as the ACOG from an M-4 system is mounted in front of the board and acts as a precision aiming system for the compass. Have the two about a foot apart so you don't get magnetic influence from metal in the ACOG scope. This method gets you a very tight on the azimuth to the target. The wire in the lensatic compass sight is thick enough to cover a target at 1500 meters.

§ Binoculars with a compass built into them. Steiner and Leica both offer binoculars with compasses built into them. This also gives you a magnified image of the target as well as the crosshair in the binocular to use as an aiming point at the target area.

§ As stated before, the longer the AB cord, the more accurate the reading will be. It is possible to use a GPS to get an exact fix of your location at the gun. The compass man then takes a reading to the target. While this is going on, another recon element moves to a terrain feature that on the map is 300 meters to the right. When they are in position on the hill, one of them displays a small orange panel that the compass man uses to get them on the required 90-degree angle to the gun-target line. The second team takes a GPS fix and they take a compass reading to the target. By subtracting the coordinates from each other, they can determine exactly how many meters the two teams are apart. This is the AB line. The Angle C will be much much larger thereby making the range that much more accurate.

§ AB = 331 Meters after GPS fix
§ Angle B = 77 Degrees M / .97437
§ Angle C = 13 Degrees M / .22495

AC = (331) X .97437
.22495

AC = 1433.725 Meters

Other operators may and will come up with different methods for obtaining an accurate AB cord length. This method requires a good deal of practice in order to prove it's worth and for the operators to have faith in its ability. Precise use of the compass and other supporting equipment is of utmost importance. When using the GPS use the averaging mode on it to get a super-accurate fix on the location of the gun and the Point B.

To gain an even more accurate range to the target, use multiple methods and repeat your measurements several times. If they vary a little from measurement to measurement, average the measurements out. Of course, another method, but a dangerous one, is to walk out to the target area with the GPS and get a super-accurate averaged fix on the target location. Subtract the two coordinates and you have your range to target.

Triangulation is also a method that hard target teams use a theodolite with. These instruments read angles to 2" of arc. That's 203 times more refined of an angle than the MIL.

About book stuff, the above is an extract from a book that i am authoring on a subject called Hard Target Interdiction. It's a concept that i worked on at 1st SFGA and SOTIC at Fort Bragg. It's mostly about .50 caliber extreme range shooting. There is stuff about the technical corrections for barometric pressure, air temperature, ammo temperature and some other goodies. Can't ignore that stuff when shooting at 1600 meters.

Book is supposed to be released sometime in July or Aug I think.

Guys i'm not attacking anyone's methods here. As for doctrine, i have known some doctrine writers and they are usually just that, writers. Doctrine is not a rule book, only a guideline, and don't forget, doctrine is public material nowadays so as snipers, it's up to us to keep on the cutting edge, not just following the dulling of of doctrine. At SOTIC Ft. Bragg and 1st SFGA, we were constantly refining and were so far detached from "doctrine" that it was used as a listed reference material in the classes. There's a reason that the special forces have their own sniper school. The regular army is tied down to the written word too much, SF operations are fluid, dynamic and require constant change to be successful.

Fort Benning sniper instructors, not an attack on you, i respect all sniper instructors, our's is a tuff job just fighting the bureaucracy.

Take Care, Trigger50

Trigger50 <Trigger@drservices.com>
USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 14:16:12 (ZULU) 

Gooch, never have been to the Quantico course, but we did shoot a couple of phases of SOTIC snaps and movers up there in 89 cause we couldn't get a range at fort bragg, our own stomping ground. Beautiful range at Quantico, we didn't want to leave.

Trigger
Trigger50 <Trigger@drservices.com>
USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 14:27:53 (ZULU) 

Spin drift @ 600, give me a break.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk garden, WV, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 14:48:53 (ZULU) 

And if you think it's a bit complicated, maybe it's over your head and you should leave it alone. These methods are for EXTREME range shooting, not playing at 600 yards. I have a .338 Lapua Longbow from Dakota Arms right now and am doing a capability assessment for them. Working on 1600 yards right now.

If you are indeed a sniper instructor, you know that you cannot ignore anything....

Trigger
Trigger50
USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 14:57:27 (ZULU) 

147gr FMJ bullet, MV: 2750fps, twist 1-12":

600m from barrel centerline: 12cm (almost 5")

600m from 300m zero: 7cm (almost 3")

Have a nice day and keep your voices down :-)

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 15:49:25 (ZULU) 

I'll be really bummed if Y2K interferes with my "Roster Fix."

Watch yer topknot.
Lance M. Johnston <sgtlmj@dmci.net>
Jonesville, MI, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 16:53:12 (ZULU) 

Funny though that when my students leave here, they can make 600 yard head shots in a no wind situation and they never have to adjust for spin drift. Now the targets are 10" x 6" so that does give us some room to play with. At 1600 sure, factor in the spin drift. Now that we have insulted each other, all I am saying is keep it simple.

R. Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 16:56:57 (ZULU) 

On a clear Fall morning, a Bear and a Rabbit, found themselves both
sitting on the same log, side by side, taking a dump.
The Bear looked over, and quitely asked, " Mr. Rabbit, do you mind if I
ask you a question?"
Why no Mr. Bear, said Mr. Rabbit! The Bear then says, " MR. Rabbit, do
you have trouble with shit sticking to your fur"?
"NO I DO NOT!" said Mr. Rabbit.
And with that, Mr. Bear picked up Mr. Rabbit, and wiped his ass!

There is a moral to this story somewhere!

Sorry Marius, I could not stop myself!
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 17:41:50 (ZULU) 

Thanx
Josh
Josh Barrett <ttterrab@valuenet.net>
manchester, mo, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 17:58:00 (ZULU) 

Also, thanks for the information Trigger.

Perhaps it is my indoctrination into the "no way as way" thinking / fighting / living, but all I can say on this stuff that Trigger has been sharing is: It works, therefore I choose to keep it. Don't believe it? Neither did I. Then I went to the field, cleared my mind of pre-concieved notions and shot. This is what this hunter came away thinking: If, and I say IF, you have multiple targets at previously unmeasured / unknown distances, and IF you need to connect between belt buckle and head, and IF time is of the essence [meaning the range is probably changing quickly too], what Trigger has written on works like magic. That is no shit either. Best thing, for me, was, you are talking about a shooter [me] that has never been to a sniper school, never read a sniper book [except the one about Gunny], never read a book on the technical aspects of sniper work, and seldom gets to a range where 600-800 yard head shot consistent capabilities can be acquired, if indeed they can.

Should I practice more with the mil dot? Absolutely. And I will work with both "systems". My logic being, why not? The debate reminds me a little though of martial arts and the heated debates about which "system" [karate, muay thai, on and on] is "best". Answer I have found is that if you are serious, swallow some pride, forget belts, and steal from every discipline.

I have learned more about precision shooting in the last 90 days from this forum and the guys who visit [thanks Bill Wylde; Mike, Gooch, Ryan, Pablito, Trigger, et al], than I have learned from my own lifetime of mistakes. Thanks to all.
I have much more to learn, I hope the posts continue!

Old Dog [maybe Old rambling Dog, eh? haha]

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 19:00:46 (ZULU) 

Okay, fair enough. This site is an interesting one though. Where have I been? Been doing the craft, shooting it and working on this confounded book writing about it now.

The parts about reverse image zero and triangulation were straight out of the book. No insults taken, and none meant. Take Care,
Trigger
Trigger50
USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 19:22:25 (ZULU) 

I'd like to see more about the spin drift. If the figures Torsten posted are accurate, Rod's students should be missing a lot more of those head shots if they aren't compensating for it, yet Rod says they don't and they make the shots. Or at least you'd think that with a consistent 1/2 minute (more than that with Torsten's numbers, maybe .7 MOA at 600) error at 600 yards that Rod would be wondering why everyone's groups were all off to one side, yet that doesn't seem to be the case. "Inquiring minds want to know."
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 21:35:15 (ZULU) 

The 147 gr. round that Thorsten mentioned also has a much slower twist rate when fired out of the rifles that are designed to use the Ball round. Those use a 1:12 or even a 1:13 or 1:14 twist rate. The slower the twist rate the less the spinning drift is going to be.

Headshots are possible at 600 yards in no wind. But that's not to hard, provided the gun and ammo can pull it off. I want to see how they do in varying wind conditions and non standard barometric pressure and air temperatures. Not to mention ammo that's either 30 degrees or 100 degrees F.

More soup to stir.

Trigger50
Trigger50
USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 21:51:22 (ZULU) 

Spindrift isn't a factor because it is compensated for when a rifle is zeroed. Its a hidden, constant element. It may be there but your zero has already compensated for it. Ever wonder why you may need elevation AND windage adjustments even when there is no wind as you move to longer distances? Spindrift isn't the only reason you may get windage deviations.

Interesting point. WHo thinks their rifle barrel is perfectly straight? Watch a machinist turn one on a lathe sometime. Looks like a straw being swished around in a cheap bar sluts mouth. (interesting comparison huh?) WHy doesn't it screw with you? It is covered up in your zero.

Trigger(D), Don't make too many assumptions on who people train and what they shoot here. We ain't all one school wonders. I've been teaching marksmanship to military and civilians as a full time job for almost 20 years. You aren't the only one who knows how to use a databook, compensate for temp, barometric pressure, light, yada, yada, yada.

THere are a lot of factors in ballistics. We could go on and on about how hard it is (it ain't hard by the way) to hit a target at 600, 800, 1200 yards or whatever. Bottom line is to LEARN THE FUNDAMENTALS, GET ON THE RANGE, SHOOT AND RECORD/ANALYZE YOUR DATA. Personally I dont worry much about spindrift/Magnus effects, Siacci's theory on pseudo-velocity, spherical aberations in optics etc. I've studied the shit, logged it in and if I need sniper trivia I'll pull it out. I know that some instructors really like to impress people with techno-babble. In the end they put the thought into a shooters mind that "Shit, this is harder than I thought" when it ain't.

You all want to know a secret to marksmanship? "Pick up gun, shoot gun, put gun down." You know where I heard that? A past Officer in Charge of the USMC rifle team.

THose of you who are beginners. CLose your eyes when we get off on shit like this. Learn to assume a good solid position, learn good breath and trigger control, keep good data, BE CONSISTENT! Don't worry too much about the "why's". Like a good buddy of mine say's, "Don't know "why", some chinaman with an abbicus figured it out". (Or words to that effect.)

I like stirring the BM (bowel movments) too. And I like talking about techno-geek issues. But I get irritated when 1 or 2 individuals come off with statments which make it sound like they know more than the collective knowledge of hundreds of Marines and Soldiers who have busted thier butts researching and testing doctrine.

I know current and past Bragg, Lewis and Carson SOTIC instructors and I know they all don't agree with some of your assertions so I would be careful when you make it sound like all of this information is from SOTIC. Never knew the US Army had a Master Sniper title. I know Canada does. Is it like a "ultimate sniper" or a "pentultimate marksman"?

Sorry if this is a bit rough on the edges. THere have been some good points RE-visited here in the last couple of days and I actually picked up some info. But the voodoo level is getting up there.
goocj <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, March 06, 1999 at 23:50:23 (ZULU) 

Gee guys we staffers here at SC really love it when you'all play nice!! The last couple of days have been great and a lot of information has been presented, even if some of us will have to re-read everything at least a dozen times to even begin to understand what was written!!
Keep up the great exchanges - this is what SC is all about!
Thanks!!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 00:13:12 (ZULU) 

My little leap into the foray here has shown me something, professional one upmanship is still strong and alive out there. Maybe that's why you've never seen me on the playing ground. The inner circle is way tight, and you'll never know just how tight it is.

Last comment, can I get a seat at a Storm Mountain course, with you as my partner?

Trigger50
Trigger50
USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 01:42:28 (ZULU) 

To Gunny Hathcock- All of our love and respect. We will miss you. SEMPER FI!
Das Hund <pondoro@hotmail.com>
Mendota, VA, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 02:13:45 (ZULU) 

Oh hell, I have a difficult enough time taking a piss and not getting it all over the seat.

Dave, meanwhile back to reality about your Remingtonn 700 BDL. At 7mm Rem Mag could very well be shot out after 7000 - 9000 rounds. You already have a great action. Just have it rebarrelled to the caliber which you like. I have built about 6 7mmSTW for people and they are thrilled with the performance and accuracy of this round. I wwould wholeheartedly recommend it. Most of the s7mm STW which I built were on Douglas barrels with a 1-10 or 1-9 twist. Good luck with your choice. (Just a personal note, I have built a 7mm Wby Mag for myself which I used elk hunting this past October, Also very accurate.))

Take Care everyone. I'm going back like Sarge to re-read all the information again, and again.

al
AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Simply Amazed in the blustery Cold and Snowy State of , O-hi-er, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 02:20:10 (ZULU) 

Maclister, Lougee, Boucher are some of the SOTIC guys that I know/have known. Had more go through Quantico but can't remember the names. Heard Lewis had closed haven't talked to anyone out there since 1996-7 or so. You know Blevins?

Ain't trying to oneup anyone. I don't do well in adversarial duels because if you've been around this site you should know that I have very little ego. Just trying to keep the information on this site from confusing the guys that are trying to learn the basics. I have nothing to prove and still continue to learn. WHile most of the guys on this site may never have to worry about firing a shot in a tactical situation, some of them might. Nothing more important in my mind than to ensure these fellas get the best info I can. Not Goochisms. But stuff that has stood the test of time.

I am a big believer in teaching fundamentals and guiding students to discover the "whys". Otherwise they get too wrapped up in the "whys" and forget the fundamentals. I've seen to much voodoo over the years too. One job I had in the Marines was a range officer training recruits at Parris Island, SC. A USMC Range Officer is a Warrant Officer MOS in marksmanship training. I ran instructional programs for service rifle, M9, M249, AT-4, M60, Mk19 and the M2. My job was to ensure that DOCTRINE was followed and if it was wrong, we rewrote it. Sometimes my cohorts and I got violent trying to keep the voodoo out. I don't know how doctrine is written in the Army but in the USMC we used subject matter experts to write it. THe only "writers" that got involved were the geeks that made sure "small dog" wasn't used when "puppy" was more precise. DO they/we get it 100% correct the first time? Yea right.

Trigger, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm pinging on you but you made some pretty bold statements re: mildots and doctrine that I disagree with. Nothing personal. You speak with authority and people will listen to you on this site. Like I said before, you brought up some good points re: mildots and angle shooting. BUT when you say that mildots aren't viable and you're gonna get resistance. THe triangulization (SP?) method of range estimation in a tactical situation is a none player for a sniper team in my mind.

It seems to me I've had these conversations before. If I remember right it was over multiple Guinness's with another SF type.

Trigger, Love ya man. Lets keep it going. This site was getting boring for awhile. As far as teaming up for a class at Storm Mountain, that would be hard since I'm the Chief Instructor. Come out to the Hathcock match in Oct and show your stuff.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 03:45:46 (ZULU) 

Dave_B
Dave_B <Dave_B@postmark.net>
nowhere, MN, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 05:55:00 (ZULU) 

Hey Sarge, how's the VS working for you?

Bill M
Bill M <billmohr@borg.com>
central, ny, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 06:43:05 (ZULU) 

Like Gooch said, this spin drift thing might be a matter of terminology. My M24 SWS have put rounds off to the right that track roughly with the spin drift no.'s I got taught at Ft. Campbell SOTIC. But it is a non issue. I know how many clicks it is at a given range so my zero at that range factors it in, as it is a constant, due to the nature of the weapon vs. an enviromental variable. For example my 100m zero would be 1/0, and my 600m zero would be 6+1/1L. Does not mean that my 600m zero is off, just that specific weapon combined with the way I shoot means that I have to put that dope on the scope to hit the target for no wind conditions that are similar to when I zeroed. I do not have to add or subtract for spin, just wind.

In re-reading this, I hope it makes sense. Frankly, it looks like I've been drinking and typing.
Ed <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 08:37:59 (ZULU) 

I almost wished I hadnt. See, being on a budjet, I had perty much
decided that the Savage FP would have been my choice of entry level
gun. The gun wasnt too bad... except the stock. Man, compared to the
PSS that a co-worker of mine recently bought, it REALLY looks...
well... plain unacceptable!
Robb <robb@mci2000.com>
KC, MO, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 10:22:38 (ZULU) 

But then again its probably a head space problem too !

TorF = Oslo, Norway !
Torsten = Coesfeld, Germany

"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 13:17:47 (ZULU) 

Once again thank you for expounding on a Most Excellant dialog and discourse on the subject of ranging targets with a Mil-Dot type reticle.

Regardless of "Who's Right" the subject has been in my limited understanding (Mathmatically Challenged) very thoroughly covered and new techniques some of us may find viable are being brought forth. Who said "Absorb Whats Useful"? Monika Lewinsky? oh that was her dress never mind.

I now have some very gnarly reading material for the twilight work hours. THANK YOU ALL!

Now how about those range books.......................
Trigger? Any thoughts?

Content, for the moment!, in By-Gawd West Virginny

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 13:40:08 (ZULU) 

Ed (Sgt. Engler), I introduced the corrections for spin drift when i worked at SOTIC Ft. Bragg in 1989. They were mathematically formulated then verified on the range. The staff of 9 shooters all agreed with the data and it's need for presentation. The neat part of this shooting business is that if you don't believe something, don't do it. IF you ARE "shooting in" your zeroes by confirming the data on the gun and them writing down your true zero ("7" -1 for 700 meters) you are changing a standard atmospheric condition system (the ring on your scope) to the conditions as they exist when you are shooting. You can be inducing huge error into your zero. Yes, if you did shoot the zeros in you have automatically compensated for spin drift. Now at 600 meters the left drift is only 4 inches. (.50 MOA) the M-24 with M118 ammunition is probably about a 1.5 MOA system at that range. It is quite easy for that little .50 minute deflection to get "lost" in that 1.5 moa group. KNow what I mean?

I don'tagree with the practice of shooting in a BDC scope because that BDC is set for standard atmospheric conditions of 59 Deg F. 29.53 in hg, 0' ASL and 70 deg ammo temp. If you shoot the gun in on any other condition than that, you induce error.

Pat, about the reverse image zero being complicated, as compared to what. With MIL relation you have a dialogue going on back and forth between two guys, one with a calculator or the "mil dot master" and the shooter takes 5-15 seconds (or more) to get a MIL reading on his target. The guy with there reverse image zero just picks up his point of aim, gets a wind call and shoots. I guarantee that a shooter using this method will get a shot off many times faster than a mil dot operator. The standard at my unit using this method was 15 seconds from when the observer started talking the shooter to the target to when the first shot had to go off. That same standard is 1 minute at the other sniper schools in the army. 1 MINUTE!!!! Tell me a target in reality is going to be in the same range plane or agree to be even visibile when so that he can be shot.

Another word on this shooting a BDC in. When you have guys shoot their gun in and write down strike data that does NOT match the elevation settings on that scope, you are tailoring that rifle to the range you are shooting on. When that gun goes anywhere else in the world, the numbers are going to be expotentially off. That practice of shooting in the gun, is actually shooting the those air conditions that are so frequently ignored in the sniper community.

Example: Range = 700 meters Barometric Pressure = 28.85 Air Temperature = 45 Ammo Temp = 45 Slant angle to target = 20 degrees.

Solution: Final elevation Setting of 27.00 MOA from a standard atmospheric condition setting of 29.75 MOA (the actual MOA value of "7" on the BDC of the M-24 scope). This is a difference of 2.75 MOA or 20.96 inches. Under the above conditions your shot would go 21 inches over the target. Pick up gun, shoot, put gun down? I don't think so.

At 1st SFGA, Yes i know B. Bevans, i was in charge of the SOTIC at lewis, in 96. We taught the operators how to mathematically correct for the above mentioned conditions. Special Operations snipers may get on a plane and fly anywhere in the world to shoot a target. Re-zero under those conditions? Wrong answer because those conditions above don't affect the trajectory at the ranges you usually zero at (300 meters). Ammo temp is a big one.

Gooch, we can agree to disagree, that's cool, stirring the soup makes it interesting and brings people into the web site. Keep an open mind. I'm not attacking your procedures, only offerening more precise methods. LIke i said above, no one is forcing anyone to do any of this, that's really okay.

Take care guys, Trigger
Trigger50 <Trigger@drservices.com>
USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 13:52:00 (ZULU) 

If any of you get to handle an "Artillery Model" Luger 9mm mod. 1914 with 8" barrel and a riflesights take a hard look at the rearsight. Just like a mausersight it can be cranked up to 800m. The sight has BUILT IN compesation for spindrift! You can see the sight move to left. A case of fine mechanics. I've sold one of these too...

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 14:22:27 (ZULU) 

Trigger, is the "reverse image" method you speak of in a training manual? Forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

Thanks,

Bill B
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 14:46:41 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 16:19:56 (ZULU) 

Steve, yes theorotecally you do correct for rotation of the earth, just like the big guns do. However, for once we have a factor that is insignificant. At departure angles less than 60 degrees, the effect is small. For a .50 caliber shot at 2000 meters on the equator shooting straight north or south, the drift is about 6" over 2000 meters. This is because of the low decay rate of the bullet vs. the speed of the earth's rotation. The farther north or south you go from the equator or your gun target line is left or right of north, the less the effect is. Thank God we don't have to mess with this one.

Dave W. The method of correcting mathematically for BP and air temp, ammo temp etc. is too long and involved. It's all in the book that should be out in Aug or so. I'm the author, can't let all of the cats out of the bag now can I. 

Bill B, Reverse Image Zero is nowhere in any training manual in current use. One of the other SOTIC instructors found the info, messed with it some and dropped it. I picked it up and developed it, applied modern rifles and optics to the method. The name Reverse Image Zero was a phrase that I coined, couldn't think of anything else to call it. The original term (1912) was Negative Angle Aiming concept, using iron sights.

Whew..... running out of wind here, which is a relief to some i'm sure. Heehehee

trigger50
Trigger50
USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 17:02:16 (ZULU) 

Burke and Cork are still here. I'll let them know about the post, I think they both have e-mail, but I'm not sure. E-mail me and I will pass your address on to them.

Later,
SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft. Benning,, GA, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 17:50:02 (ZULU) 

Are you an instructor at the Bundeswehr Sniper School in Hammelburg? We had a couple of your instructors attend our school here at Ft Benning. Their names were Reith and Heisse, wondering if you know them.
SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning, GA, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 18:16:01 (ZULU) 

it's spin drift mania !!! Trigger, I think I will wait for the book, my eyes are about to fall out starin' at this damn screen trying to take in all the info. Wow.

Steve in Fla,

my e-mail keeeps screwin' with me, so I'll let you know here. The 40xb stock you are referring to is the PSC13, looks like a PSS w/one swivel stud in forend, ADL, has a flatter forend. Hope this is the one your lookin for.

later folks

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 20:44:56 (ZULU) 

I know this is way over the top but I can't hold back :-)

I have examined a WW2 german mechanical ballistic computer for a 16" costal battery. (The 4 guns are still there, very impressive). This computer calculates earth rotation into the trajectories. Not only deflection as Trigger said, there are also a max range-difference when shooting east or west. The guns are longer ranging shooting west.

Teoretically this means that if you shoot at very long ranges with a sniperrifle you will hit high when shooting to west and lo when shooting to the east.

In WW1 the germans missed the target with the "Paris Gun" due to this effect. The longrange Krupp shootingfields probably go north/south.

Interested in ballistcs? Get "Paris gun, inner and outer ballistics" by Gerald Bull. This makes Sierra Bullets reloadingmanual look like the dialouge in Mel Brooks' "Silent Movie", "No!" :-)
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 21:00:36 (ZULU) 

Just got my new 1999 catalog. I noticed three different bolt handles. I would like to put one of the bigger ones on my 110fp, Any info?
Savage has a scout rifle now. Any thoughts on its use as a spotters rifle in non combat missions?
For the tatical pistol fans, the new striker can now be had in 260 rem with a 1 in 9 twist barrel.
FYI all thier 223 barrels have a 1 in 9 twist and the 308s are 1 in 10. savage seems to be able to adapt faster to shooters needs, good job savage hats off to ya.

CJ
non flying bee

CJ <t18man@gateway.net>
new castle, de, USA - Sunday, March 07, 1999 at 21:12:33 (ZULU) 

The reverse image method is simply a variation of the hunter's point blank range method, that has been adapted to work under slightly different conditions.

You may have seen the term point blank range in various ballistic programs. The idea is simple: if you are shooting something that has a kill zone of 10" (the heart area of an elk or something. Whatever.), the you want to develop a round that witin some preferred range (say 75-200 yards) will be contained within the 10 kill zone. The scope will be aimed at the bottom of the zone and will be set so that when the bullet is at 75 yards, it will be at the bottom of the ten inch zone. At maybe 125 it will be at the top of the zone, and at 200 it will be at the bottom again. The hunter can then consistantly aim at the bottom of the kill zone and be assured that all rounds hitting at a range of 75-200 yards will hit within that zone. That range is (contrary to common usage) referred to as the point blank range. The advantage is that no changing of the sights are required to compensate for ranges between 75 and 200 yards in my example.

I think that it is obvious that the reverse image method is simply a variation of this technique and should not be confused witha nay sort of arcane sniper technical lore. It is just one of many methods that can be used by any shooter to hit his or her target with varying degrees of required accuracy. Whatever that target might be. I think that you will see that stated to various degrees of directness in the various posts here, but if you want more explainaition, you might find adaptable info in some books under the point blank heading.

Gooch,

Yes it IS a good thing, in some situations, not to kill but to disable. Note we are NOT talking about a situation where a man has a knife at the neck of a hostage and where a one shot kill is needed. We are talking about a tactical situation where one can use wounding enemy troops to demoralize. War is neither pretty nor clean. The goal is not to kill the enemy, but to win.

As a side example, you will note that the German generals were near universal in their belief that the end of the war was accellerated by the allied tactic to demoralize Germany via mass bombings over civilian areas. Obviously that's not "sniping" but imagine that you are in a platoon of VC somewhere and your cohorts are being picked off one-by-one. Some killed some wounded. Can you imagine how demoralizing and debilitating it would be to have half of your platoon wounded, and the other half caring for the wounded? Hardly an effective fighting unit anymore. I would imagine that much of Hathcock's advantage in his similar situation would have come from the demoralizing effect of the shooting, not whether full clean kills were being made (as it would SEEM that an effective force of a few men could have engaged and eliminated Hathcock easier than he and his observer could have defended. But the did not, because the were effectively debilitated and demoralized). Yes, a nice clean kill is often desirable, but it's not neccessary 100% of the time, and often a claen wounding can effectively debilitate a group or person just as effectively, or more.

Just a generalization that may or may not be true.

Semper Fi,
André
Andre Peterson <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 00:36:03 (ZULU) 

What the heck are you talking about with the M3A BDC? You develop a zero summary chart that has your elevation settings for different temperatures which is the greatest variable that we normally have to deal with. My zero for 700 m @ 40 degrees may be 7-1 while at 60 deg it may be dead on 7. Its irrelevent at what temp the elevation knob scale was designed because all I use it for is reference points for my zero's. I have zero's for distances at various temperatures. My altitude changes... I have charts that will give me the correcttions to those zero's. Angle of fire changes I whip out my mildot master which is already out anyway. I loose all of that shit and I do the best I can from memory. I can tell you are the type that prefers the high tech solution to problems. I'll bet you can't pass a Radio Shack without going in to check out the latest gizmos.

You keep talking about SPEED in relation to this hold off method. THen in the next breath you whip out some detailed formula to go through. You know what? You can spend 20 miutes working formulas and blow the shot by a simple flinch. I'll build my house on a solid foundation, not on sand.

According to the way you are thinking I and the vast majority of snipers in the military are all ate up. Our instructors were ate up, their instructors were ate up and the manuals are all ate up. I shouldn't be able to hit a target, acquire a range, or who knows what! How do you feel about mirage! Is that tool ate up too? Next you'll be telling us that the shooters at Perry are going to the reverse imaging zero instead of dialing on their dope.

I've seen stuf like this before. THey usually work fine on ranges where the shooters know the terrain so range estimation is easier, and targets are more or less fully exposed. Try these techniques at the Hatchock match or some of the other practical matches on strange terrain where optical illusions or terrain/light/target conditions throw off your estimations by eye. Try hitting a head and shoulder target at 600 when half of his body is obscured by cover or he is partially in defilade.

You mentioned that one of the guys on this site had the head in the sand syndrome. I think you may be a victim of the never trust what they wrote in the manuals syndrome.

Rotation of the earth!!!! THey wonder why I drink!!!!!Actually this is better than drugs.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 00:48:29 (ZULU) 

Major Taylor,
Check your in box, I would like to give you some info on the SEO course. You asked about the ATTRS list, as of now, there is no ATTRS but the course is still given.

Gooch,
Sorry about the "Mister" stuff

Later,

SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning, GA, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 01:35:31 (ZULU) 

Trigger you have appeared out of no where and brought some very interresting concepts to this forum./ Thank You I will try your ideas the next chance I get. Can't hurt to try in training. I am skeptical about real life use. It kind of feels like an Oh S... thats good enough pull the trigger to me. Time will tell. They laughed at Columbis.

Just cleaned and sized a bunch of LC Match 308, I dont know why I have Federal Match up the you know what but it wont hurt to try. Now who has the killer load for Sierra 175's with Varget and IMR 4064?

No luck on a Remington Action yet, long or short with 308 bolt face.
Mike M <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 02:20:33 (ZULU) 

Keep it up guys, this is great!!! Credentials and aquaintances are flying like schrapnel !!!

We need to get you guys on a TV show.

I'm not grasping much of it, but it sure is interesting reading. Talk like that turns a country boy's mind to mush.

The Roster is alive and well !!!!
 

Spoonbill
Broken Arrow, OK, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 02:28:49 (ZULU) 

C'mon Pat, lets go down to the range and see if we can remember how to put the bolt into the receiver. And then for the real test, lets see if we can remove those Federal bullets from those plastic red carry cases.

And another thing!! Can you imagine if Kent Gooch and Trigger 50 were to team up at the Carlos II as team mates!! If that happens, just video tape the event, send me highlights and send me a placard which proclaims "HEY CHUMP - YOU LOSE. But keep the $150 bucks and give it Gunny's Family.

Well gotta go. The dog is chew a kitchen leg chair and Andria is cussing him out. Now which side should I take??

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Whooooo-Weeeeee City in this confused State of , Ohio, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 02:35:45 (ZULU) 

Sorry for the off topic, but I had to tell someone and my wife thought it / I was stupid. hahaha
 

Old Dog

PS A grackel is a blackbird with a purplish ring on its neck.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 02:58:06 (ZULU) 

Old Dog
Bruce
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 03:00:03 (ZULU) 

OK guys - I committed a MAJOR mistake (again) today! I went to the Albuquerque Gun Show - WAY BAD (or good depending??) Anyway I picked up a Savage 110FP in .223, now don't shudder TO MUCH it was an EVEN TRADE for my 110FP .308 which, since I have the 700 VS in .308, I didn't need anymore! Enough already how about a load using a 55 gr SBT?? Still have some of the 55 grs left over from a previous weapon. And happen to have a bunch of N 133 anybody used this combination in a .223 BOLT gun?
Thanks as always - NO SAVAGE REMARKS - remember I've heard them all!!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 03:22:45 (ZULU) 

OUT!
Larry <tmhorn@hotmail.com>
okla, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 03:35:47 (ZULU) 

under cam adjustment is
7.62 mm
M-118NM
brackets on verticle and horizontal crosshair

whole system fits into green metal tube

decent condition, everything seems to work
picked it up at a garage sale
what is it and approx real world value please
thanks

Gary <lawcop@voyager.net>
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 03:55:07 (ZULU) 

Sorry man, but clearly you don't have the ability to distinguish between combat mid range sniping and the truely long range stuff when I'm talking techniques. Ask a couple of other guys, they caught on instantly. You say your a Senior Instructor at Storm Mountain? Didn't mean to insult man, sorry it has to be that way, I'll see YOU in October at this Hathcock match, provided i'm in country.

Pat, (Mr. Bullet) You made a good point about wanting to set up a scenario close to your realworld shot situation. Real world special opns planning times are only 72 to 96 hours, then launch. 75% of that time is spent absorbing info and intel and trying ot make sense out of it, not to mention wading through the BS that is attached to the mission statment. A good rehearsal is always nice to talk about, but in reality the time lines ARE NOT generated by the operators, as are the means of infiltration, SF Guys, am I wrong?

IN reality, YOU DO NOT HAVE LIVE SHOT REHEARSAL TIME, and you will NOT get a chance to zero in a target country. The stuff that I've read about keeping a data book and then referring to it so that you can put data on a gun for a place you've never been before is pure guess work.

A little more on the different techniques. Reverse Image Zero is meant for smoking lots of targets in a short period of time. Rangers have a good use for this when sniper fire is used to support a raid, no need to lift and shift an M-24. But for those precision long range 1200+ meters, get there days early, and triangulate every inch of the ground with multiple possible FFPs. You set up the shot on YOUR terms, not anyone elses. IF possible that is.

Guys, this is really, fun, Gooch take a breath, we're both professionals, I just get paid a different way than you do.

We should talk sometime on the land line.

Trigger50, no hard feelings, but damn....
Trigger50
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 04:08:43 (ZULU) 

Email me about the specifics of what you're looking for, I can probably help you some stuff on "Anti" sniper operations, not counter sniper stuff. Specifically designed for urban work. Trained some operators that went to the same place you mentioned. Won't transmit this stuff over the internet, but we can work something out.

Maybe the phone would be better. I'll need verification of your status where you work, but that shouldn't be too difficult.

Email if you're interested, I'll respond and be happy to help out.

Trigger50
Trigger50 <Trigger@drservices.com>
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 04:18:27 (ZULU) 

Reread your last comment again. My turn this time. I've seen your breed of instructor also. Sounds like and looks like by the postings here you are, or think you are the cock of the walk at this site. That's cool. You genuinely seem insulted that this was intended as an attack on you. Believe me, if that were the case, I would contact YOU directly and the rest of these fine people would not be subjected to the garbage that you just tossed.

Mirage is a great tool. Guys are Perry are great at what they do too. Wouldn't take anything away from them. Manuals ate up, that must be why the Armys Sniper Manual TC 23-14 Dated July 89 p. E-2, AND the Special Operations Target Interdiction Courses manual dated OCT 96, p. 3-59 both have windage charts for the M118 round that have the deflection of a shot at 1000 meters for a 20 mph wind as being only 120.00 in a full value wind. Why is that, because the original M-14 manual (from which this data is cut and pasted) was in error in the 1960s.

Match shooters, Wish your magnums could hold this well in the wind, The actual numbers depending on what data you use is actually around 270 inches at 1000 meters in a 20 mph crosswind. Damn, i guess we better let everybody know their books are in error. Manuals frequently are messed up, you know it, i know it, and most pros know it also. Back off. Still see you in October.

Trigger50

PS as for everybody else with an open mind, SNIPERNET at specialoperations.com should be back up soon. That site didn't have any of this "professional" sarcasm. I apologize for the strong remarks in this section. Gooch, the master sniper thing? For your information, that is a job title only. If DOES NOT refer to the capabilities of any particular sniper in a unit. And the title DOES exist in the US, just not in the places you've been inside. Wink.
Trigger50
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 04:30:46 (ZULU) 

Point taken, Thanks

Trigger 50
Trigger50
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 04:33:54 (ZULU) 

Lets not disrupt a quality site with ego issues.

cheers all
darryl
DT <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Monday, March 08, 1999 at 05:13:16 (ZULU) 

I see spin drift havs been discovered, my dad tried to explain this to me when I was a kid. Called it Filex's helix and that you woud hit at differamt spots around your point of aim depending on the distance. Now I can't see how this would effect me or my L42 or any one shooting a target of the live type at any range. A hit is disabling at any range. But old Dad said in long range shooting with the 16'' main guns of the New Jersey it could mean hundreds of feet at two miles and get worse the farther out you go. Ah for the days life was simple. All fooling around it has been some interesting reading here today. Dad's intent was to explain why a shot went over the hill instead of hitting below the crestwhen done without radar ranging.

Keep up the interesting comentary please.

Thanks
MJ
Monterey Jack
Prundale, Calif, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 05:42:43 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the info on reverse image. Sounds sort of like a "battle" zero, where a center hold will get you a torso hit from 50m out to 400m. Sounds like another useful formula.

Mike M,

I too, shoot the M1A's in matches at 600yds. My 600yd no wind zero has no windage added for spindrift. I have two M1A's and it is the same for both. Sights? Maybe, I dunno.
 

Bill B
Bill B <dc8plumber2aol.com>
Shelby County, KY, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 05:45:11 (ZULU) 

they were there last year about this time right !!

I dont know them, but their ex CO Hauptmann Strobler.

I´ve trained often at the Infantyschool Hammelburg, but am in the Reserves now. We run Sniper Classes every two years only, but do sustainments during the year.

When visiting with Hptm. Strobler last year he was amazed at the amount of Information I had on the subject. He had to have everything translated into German. The deal was that Reith and Heiße being NCO´s would stay at the school longer than the "Occifers" and the learned Information would not be lost. Last year they had planned to run one class in June, but that was delayed.
I have not talked to them since, but will do so as I am traveling by Hammelburg on Friday on my way to the IWA in Nürnberg.

Do Hauptfeld Reith and Heiße know who I´m talking about when I mention you ???
 

TorF, the "Heereserprobungsstelle" in Meppen does have its Ranges in a N/S direction parallel to the Dutch border!
 

Spin Drift vs Scope Cant
If you mount a scope, and the horizontal reticle line "hangs" left, meaning is lower, and you zero for say 100 Meters it doesnt´really matter if you stay there, now if you crank up the scope to your 600 Meter mark your crosshairs will move at a cant to the left when looking at their travel on a boresighter grid. Not seeing that in your scope you hold dead center resulting in a shot to the right.
Presuming you can figure your spin drift to the right a intentionally canted scope to the right would compensate for this effect.
Now how many of you "eyeballed" if you scope is indeed level ? Some of your encountered spin drift may be scope cant.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 11:30:37 (ZULU) 

forgot to tell you how I do it.

I shoot a nice group at 100 Meters at the very bottom of my target backer. Then I take a string and a emty case as a plumb weight and hang it over the target backer with the weight hanging free right over my first group. Now if you dial in your 300 Meter elevation and aim for the weight you should, if your scope is mounted correct, drop the weight with a shot through the string.
Any scope cant is clearly visible as the group will move to the side as you crank up the elevation. Small corrections can usually be done without turning the scope by just untightening the scope ring screws and tightening on the other side.

"ende"
Ofw. <ya know>
Germany - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 12:05:44 (ZULU) 

Any Takers?

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 13:18:13 (ZULU) 

I'm still looking to see if anyone has an opinion on NIKON Optics? Durability, etc. I'm looking to PLAY at less than the 600 yard mark.
 
 

Quote from Gooch...
"Those of you who are beginners. Close your eyes when we get off on shit like this. Learn to assume a
good solid position, learn good breath and trigger control, keep good data, BE CONSISTENT! Don't
worry too much about the "why's". Like a good buddy of mine say's, "Don't know "why", some
chinaman with an abbicus figured it out". (Or words to that effect.)"

dustpan <dustpan@handgunner.net>
Indianapolis, IN, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 13:23:37 (ZULU) 

A tiny 1° of canting puts you 1/2" of at 100 Meters. Now you zero at 100, but your cant is still there and will not only increase as you dial up for say 600 = 3", but with the elevation dialed in on top of that will give you a variation as to the range dialed in on the scope as well.

Now I belive that the issue of scope cant is much more important for our "close" range work than spin drift.

Also that cant is one of the reasons why I dont like the Harris bipod and will stick with my Parker Hale. Trying to compensate it on uneven ground, if you notice it, will put extra stress on you and you shooting position as well as torque the stock.

A small air bubble level that can be purchased for Anschütz Target Rifles on top of the scope will solve this, if you have passed the string test mentioned above.
Also the Phrobis MkII scopes have a vertical post level system that will show cant and help avoid it.

"ENDE"
 

Ofw. T <still zee same>
wet and gloomy, Germany - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 13:45:49 (ZULU) 

The device you found is a scope and mount for the Army's XM-21 Sniper system. It was used during the Vietnam era. The Marines went with bolt guns, the Army with accurized M-14s along with this mount and Redfield 3x9 scopes. Their reasoning was that an auto-loader would give the sniper more ability to defend himself and lay down significant fire if needed. The scope is pretty much exactly the same as the civilian model of the time. The system has a ballistic cam that allows the sniper to adjust the angle of the entire scope according to target range. That's about all I know off hand. You can read extensively about this sytem in The Long Range War (reviewed on this site, I think).

André
Andre <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 15:20:45 (ZULU) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapwicz@nls.net>
Ready for Work here in , Ohio, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 15:57:39 (ZULU) 

There are a handfull of those in this group that appear to put forth some good info and have the background and experience to back it up. I say listen to what ALL of the experienced shooters have to say - if something doesn't make sense to you - then decide whether you want to chase it or not.

Here's the path that I'm on: Get the basics down, digest the fine details as you get time - those fine details will come to light as you grow in experience.

Experienced Tactical Shooters: keep throwin' that good info out ther...

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 16:34:20 (ZULU) 

"T" are you coming out for it?

Rod/Kent,
Any updates for us?

Oh-Boy-Yo!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 16:36:45 (ZULU) 

Old Dog
Bruce
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 16:36:47 (ZULU) 

Some people think LE Snipers are completely different in shooting. I think it depends on the work. Triggers techniques of a 700 yards zero would not work for LE. Try to make a 125 yard head shot in the left eye with a 700 yard zero and you are done for the day.

Mil Dots in my opinion are the way to go. Range estimation is great. Leads are built in. It works for Police and it works in Military. PD has buildings, windows, stop signs etc. Military has equipment, Rifles, tanks, vehicles, helments etc. To use as constants. I could go on and on.

We talk about spin drift because of precission but use a 700 yard zero and say good enough. I don't understand. Now Trigger I am not capping on you at all. You sound like someone who has a great deal of knowledge and I hope to pick your brain. I am sure alot of your info is out of sequence and confussion is this old Sgt.s brain has taken over. But God this is fun.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 16:51:28 (ZULU) 

"No problem," said the Soldier, "I harassed you all course. I'll get it for you."

While he was gone, the Marine who had had it with SF guys thrashing him for the last couple of months picked up the Soldier's shoe and spit in it.

When the Soldier returned with the coke, the other Marine said, "That
looks good, I think I'll have one too."

Again, the Soldier obligingly went to fetch it and while he was gone,
the Marine picked up the other shoe and hocked a big lunger in it.

The Soldier returned and they all sat back and enjoyed the short flight.

As the plane was landing in Denver, the Soldier slipped his feet into his shoes and knew immediately what had happened.

"How long must this go on?", the Soldier asked. "This fighting between our forces? This hatred? This animosity? This spitting in shoes and pissing in cokes?"

Like the Lone Ranger used to say, "Easy Trigger".
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 17:19:14 (ZULU) 

It has been fun, One of the important things to note here is that your business is the teaching of entry level shooters and others that choose to refine their technique by going to other schools in search of other information. Am I far off? The methods that I talk about are for post-apprentice snipers that have been doing it for a while and are past all of the fundamentals (but still using them).

Agreed, Rev. Image zero is not for PD work. No way. Like I said over and over, read it, believe it, use what you want, and forget the rest. That is entirely the readers choice. The reason that you have never seen me at this site is that i have monitored this and other sites. I had a feeling i might stir some "stuff" if I dropped a method or two and it might be taken out of context. These are NOT basic methods. When they were taught at SOTIC where I worked at, it was after intensive trainup.

I won't even get into the stuff where you are shooting a .50 at 1800 meters are are making 15-20 MOA changes for elevation based on the air temp, B. pressure, slant angle and ammo temp. Have the proof on video tape. Every minute of it. That will all be in the book. But as with this site, you can either get it and read about it, or not.

Let me be the first to apologize though, i did not intend this turn into a "pissing match". Look forward to making a trip to Storm Mountain and talking with you guys. Interested?

Trigger
 

Trigger50
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 18:06:43 (ZULU) 

A head wind will cause the bullet to drop, because it increases the "Total Air Distance" to the target. It increases the Bullet's "Flight Time" to the target. Just the opposite is true for a direct tailwind. It decreases the flight time, and makes it seem like you were shooting at a shorter distance, and cause the bullet to strike high.
Of course there are many other variables too: Light, Temp, Elevation just to name a couple.
I don't think the bullet will "Climb" during a shot made in a direct headwind. I have read that SpinDrift will cause the bullet to climb in a crosswind from one direction, and drop in a crosswind from another direction. I don't remember which was which, but will dig it out.
I do shoot quite a bit out to 600yds, and I do try to make an adjustment for the Headwind/Tailwind, but is not much error. Maybe half a MOA, or one MOA at the most. At a thousand yards it would be much more of an affect.

Best Regards,

Bill B
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Shelby County, KY, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 18:18:03 (ZULU) 

Let the games continue!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The cold and rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 18:42:01 (ZULU) 

Trigger,
I will E-mail tonight, right now I'm here at Sniper School, and I have to get back to the range.

Later,
SSG Cady <longgun@mindspring.com>
Ft Benning, GA, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 18:57:13 (ZULU) 

As sniping technique is so close to the heart for many, it is understandable that people get worked up at times on the specifics. That is how the art progresses. You can learn from everyone as long as you do not get bogged down in the arcane. There ain't no top dogs here either. Just honestly interested parties from a wide variety of backgrounds. Lets keep that in mind guys. Until we go to war again, everyone on this site is on the same side.

Long range vs REALLY long range. Different animals. Dad was a gunner on the USS Wisconsin and they had to worry about everything. Under 900 yards I ain't sweating the drift issue. It either gets absorbed into the logs or it is not all that noticeable with the ammo I shoot (I swore off M118 a decade ago and would never look back). Being a civi now means I shoot Fed GM or GM2. So far I have noticed little in the way of drift. I ain’t saying it ain’t there. But I am not noticing it on target. That to me sort of proves the log book issue. What ever drift there is, gets factored out in your range testing.

The stake method reminds me of the time I hung out with some mortar maggots. If you got the time it certainly works I am told. I didn't pay a lot of attention to their prep as I was suckered into fusing rounds for them. I couldn't tell you what they were doing with those stakes! Would I bother if there were a fair amount of recognizable objects around to mil out? Not for under 1000 yards with a .308. For a .50 cal at 2 miles? Hell, I'd want every trick I had at my finger tips. My totally irrelevant advice? Never stack the 81mm morter round more that three high. It really sucks for your blood pressure when they all roll off the top row! What does this have to do with anything? NOTHING. Why are we arguing again? ;-)

I guess the point of all this rambling is that I am seeing little reason to argue in a really heated sense. It sounds like we are talking two different end goals here. 0 to 1000 on humans and 1500 and beyond on hard targets. There are a lot of methods to achieve these goals. You are welcome to argue them all, just do it with tact. Personally, I like dad's 16 inch method for everything. ;-) But then I do not have to live in the impact area....

back to bed for me. I am barely coherent. It shows.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 19:03:06 (ZULU) 

I would think a better option would be a target grade flat top AR15 with a very high power variable magnification scope using 75 or 80 grain bullets. This opinion is not based on fact. Just a feeling. A better case could also be made that since we are not talking a war zone here a bolt gun identical to the one the primary shooter is using would be ideal. In other words another .308 700P or what ever the main rifle happens to be. Still, due to my own love of the thing for up close and personal matters, I’d like to see at least an AR based carbine in the mix for support. Not as the back up sniper weapon mind you, but available for those unexpected times when you really need it. The serious felons have squads too!

I think the REAL issue you raise has nothing to do with what firearm is used. From what I hear, MANY departments can not afford or are not willing to slot a spotter! This topic needs addressing as that is pretty f**ked up in my humble opinion. I know that a lone shooter CAN handle the task but when you factor in all the extraneous crap going on having nothing to do with the final shot, it only makes sense to have a second man on the team so that the shooter can devote all his attention to the task. And that second man should have identical training as the primary shooter. An untrained officer is not going to completely understand what the shooter needs in terms of information or commends.

Now I really need some sleep.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 19:42:20 (ZULU) 

keep the info coming, though the "fighting" you can keep. :-) Both of you have valuable input to give us.

Trigger, a lot of people here are not "in-the-trade", as you will have noticed - me the very first one - but let that not keep you away. You have input to give, and we are glad that, after lurking for some time, you have chosen to input as well. Keep it up.

Gooch, as always, is welcome and appreciated.

I think the two of you have different inputs to give, immensely complimenting one another, despite disagreeing. You will agree on some, and disagree on some - that's human. As long as we agree to disagree in a CIVILISED ( was not intented to be upper, my pecking did that, and I like the effect ) manner, there is nothing wrong with it. On the contrary, if you two had agreed from the start, we would not have had all this excellent information, would we?

Both of you, keep the fingers typing - I'll worry about the archiving.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 19:51:12 (ZULU) 

http://www.ngb.dtic.mil/grdnews/onguard/1996/jul/jul 9621.htm

;-)
 

Darrell, or Dave, or Darren, or Dale, or...... <westforce@juno.com>
Darrell-Darrell, in IL., USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 22:02:55 (ZULU) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 23:14:48 (ZULU) 

I've never firerd a shot in anger as a sniper.

In the field on paper targets my limit was 600m. Didn't like to shoot over 500. Could not get reliable cold shot hits over 600m. This is not headshots but upper torso-targets.

Could stretch range 100m with 6.5X55 or 300winmag.

I guess I'm a chicken but I've shot too many formal competitions and hunted enough to know what can go wrong.

For long range ambush above 600m I used to have much better succsess with a short burst from an accurate MG34.

I think any shot on a living target with a time of flight longer than 1 sec. is unrealistic.
 
 
 
 
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, March 08, 1999 at 23:41:10 (ZULU) 

On point blank range - the way I learned it, this is the range where the bullet doesn't rise above or drop below the vital area. On a whitetail, that's obaout 8 inches, but I use six inches. When I zero at 200 yards with my 270, point blank range is 275 yards. Anything inside of that, I just hold in the middle of the vital area and the deer is down.

On spin drift - From everything I have heard about it, spin drift gets drowned out in the "noise" of wind, barrel temp., and all of the other oogley factors. There is a simple test for it - Does anyone know if a barrel is made with reverse twist. If so, see if you can get two identical guns with opposite twist in the barrel and shoot them side by side. Differences will be in the barrel twist.

On range specific data - its not a big problem as Trigger claims, but it is a factor. Barometric pressure, temp., and humidity will yield the same air density whether in W. Va. or Kazahkstan. The biggest variable will be the wind patterns - your local terrain will have a unique pattern of swirls which will be consistent for the same wind speed and direction. Other locales have different patterns. Just ask lake sailors about home advantage. Still - once you read the pattern, it stays the same. In short, don't throw out your data book, but don't expect that 0.1 MOA correction to stay the same either.

Karl
Just a civil engineer and not a sniper by any means.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 00:10:36 (ZULU) 

I was having good results with 100 Gr Match Kings, however they blow about a bit at 1000 yds.

Dave.
Dave Groves <david.groves@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT, Australia - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 00:24:44 (ZULU) 

I have to agree with Marius that Gooch and Trigger complement each others style of warfare greatly. Gooch having more of a precision shooting style on a single target and Trigger having more of a multible target style and just causing destruction on the enemy in a massive a way as possible.

I for one have probably have learned more on sniping in the last few days than I have since the Tomato Stake Bi-pod days. Keep it going, just play nice :)

Bill M
Bill <billmohr@borg.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 00:35:57 (ZULU) 

Any recipes for 308 using the following: 130 grain varmint; 155 grain palma? Rifles are box stock PSS and M70. Thanks, and feel free to email me off-site.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 00:50:29 (ZULU) 

Sorry to hear that you're experiencing difficulty with your Mildot Master.

The method incorporated into the device to correct for slope angle is an approximation that is most accurate at shallow angles and/or shorter ranges. This method (the cosine method) is currently taught in a variety of Armed Forces schools.

It is, however, an approximation, and will not be as accurate as a computer program, especially at extreme angles and ranges. 60 degrees is definitely an extreme angle.....hang a cord on the device, angle it to 60 degrees, and you'll see that you're shooting almost straight up! It's highly unlikely that you will ever encounter the combination of 600 yards and 60 degrees.

Section III of the Owner's Manual explains that the two methods in the manual for these corrections are approximations only, and as such are to be used with caution.

If you're like me, you can never find the Owner's Manual for something you bought two weeks ago, let alone 4 or 5 months ago, so I'll just give you a portion of the text here.

"The calculations necessary to exactly correct for shooting at angles other than horizontal are complex and time consuming."

"External factors as diverse as altitude, air temperature, and relative humidity can all affect the results of these approximations. This is because, in each of the two methods, the corrected bullet drop figure is based on a reduced "actual horizontal range" to account for the lessening of gravitational effect on the bullet's trajectory as the firing angle deviates further from the horizontal. The bullet's path through the air, however, is still at the (longer) "line-of-sight" distance, subjecting the bullet to slight additional air resistance not accounted for in these two approximation methods. Due to the effects of the above-mentioned factors on air density, it is impossible to simplify the calculations and incorporate them into these two approximation methods."

"If the shooter elects to use the Mildot Master for calculating corrections for uphill/downhill shots, it must be with the realization that the results are approximations. While close enough for hunting and target-shooting situations, the margin of error increases with range and angle and precludes the use of these methods in critical situations."

I think that you'll find that at realistically-encountered angles and ranges, the cosine method is pretty close, but I must stress that an approximate method such as this should not be used in a critical situation.

Jeff, I hope that this helps. Wish I could have made the device to duplicate computer ballistics programs, but it just isn't possible in an analog device such as this.

If you are not satisfied with this explanation, or with this limitation in the device, please contact me immediately and I will do whatever I can to resolve the situation.

Sorry about the length of this post!

Bruce Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 04:20:40 (ZULU) 

Sorry guys, I couldn't hold back any longer. He is not the SOTIC guru that he is making out to be. There is no "Master Sniper" in Special Forces or the Army. That is what he called himself, not what the army called him.

Marius or Scott - Sorry, if this is too personal then wipe it out, I just don't like it when someone comes into this forum and alludes to things that are not in fact.

Rick

Rick <RBowcher@aol.om>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 04:32:29 (ZULU) 

Does anyone have any info on the 6.5x284?? I am interested
in any info you may have as far as barrel life or accuracy potential and velocity potential. Please e.mail me or send me a copy of any article you may have and I would gladly pay you for the postage. My big concern is barrel life, I would like to use it for tactical shooting and I wont consider it if its a barrel eater like the 6mmx284 or the 264 Win Mag. I plan on keeping it around 2950 with the 140s. Any help would be appreciated.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 04:40:56 (ZULU) 

Rick, sure hope your last date was a typo (1968) probably meant '86. You don't jangle any of my memories and I was around Bragg BEFORE it had a current SOTIC or Sniper course, ditto for Benning. That was when "sniping" wasn't cool...early-mid 70's.....way before us "Green Grunts" had our own MOS Field. I held a 11F2S and 91B3S and....what the heck...what I USE to do and a buck fifty will get me a cup of coffee !!!

Sure has been fun to come back after a weekend break and see such discussion...glad I had my boots on !!! It was getting deep in SC ! Last Item...ALL MATCHES for Eufaula will NOW be held at BENNING, SAME DATES. Questions, email me. Do I miss ,"Green Ramp" Unh-uh, No WAY !!
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 05:27:34 (ZULU) 

There are visitors from other countries that hit this site...DO ALL countries now use mil-dot or have some retained their sanity and found/still use something sensible ?? Sound Off !!
OUT HERE
Will
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 05:33:48 (ZULU) 

Say Good Night AL

Good Night Al!
 

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Ready to hit the sack in , O-hi-er, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 05:44:55 (ZULU) 

T <ya know>
DE - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 06:55:15 (ZULU) 

Yeah, you were the NCOIC of the committee when I came through there. Then and up till now I had the greatest respect for you at that place. I remember when you taught us also that the .308 would outperform the .300 Magnum at unknown distance ranges because of the magnums supposed steeper fall angle. Remember that? Will you admit to it. I also remember you changing your tune on that.

I NEVER claimed that SOTIC at bragg taught reverse image zero. WE DID at fort lewis, SOTIC. And yes you guys DID teach triangulation, or should i post a copy of the Summary Sheet that covered it. I'm not surprised to learn that you guys NEVER change the POI. Resistance to change was always the hallmark of SWC anyway. It always seemed that things were content to put out the same old, same old while the courses rolled by.

By the way, Reverse Image Zero, originally called the Negative Angle aiming concept was dug out of the files at your shop at Fort Bragg, I never said i developed it, i only made it worked as i seen fit. And it does work. Since we're also in slam city, you seemed to miss the parts of the post that talked about wind calls, not surprising though.
I wondered where you were in all of this, i knew eventually it had to draw you out of the woodwork. As for the SOTIC guru, never said that I was either, only trying to pitch in, and someone else got their feelings hurt, sorry about that. Like it says at the beginning of a couple of posts.... those that Can't TEACH, that'd be you.... I recall after your retirement you came by the committee shack and i happily gave you a couple of disks with some data that I developed for the .300 mag and data tables for the .308. I'd say you're a bit ungrateful, but at least i did the math a prooved the magnum was better at unknown distance, you simply spouted opinion.

If this is getting your fur raised, GOOD. I see the old animosity game is strong and alive at Bragg, never changed never will.

Will, I've humped plenty of ruck.... retired as a team sgt. of A-176, last may. I stayed operational until retirement, with about 6 months of total staff time.

I'd say that October sounds like a good time to put all this crap to bed, care to meet there Rick. I'll be happy to shoot against you. And then maybe we can put to bed this crap about a magnum vs. a 308 and the theory that those that "can't, teach".... I'm in, any takers?

Trigger50
Trigger50
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 13:17:19 (ZULU) 

I know I could buy factory ammo for the 300 Win Mag whilst I'll have to reload the 30-338, but then I think reloading was probably going to take place anyway.

I would welcome any/all contributions. Please e-mail me directly at russellp@iafrica.com.

Thanks,
Joe

Joe <russellp@iafrica.com>
Cape Town, South Africa - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 13:27:17 (ZULU) 

Guys this last few days has been an experiment into finding out how open minded "or not" things are at these different sniper web sites. Guess i learned. For the vast majority, you are on these sites to learn something about the craft. you also have noticed exactly how easy it is to stir the pot with some comments that raises the fur of those who get very professionally jealous. No surprise there.

Now if you think the words of a burned out SOTIC instructor "Rick" set MY credentials, you're sadly mistaken. My venture into this cyberspace sniper business is done. It's exactly what I figured it to be and that's a little variation on the stuff that I've seen in the printed media. If you think not, you're mistaken again. Notice how quick the reaction was to certain methodology. I'm sure that Rick has never attempted the Reverse Image Zero, if he did, he would see that it works. It's simply trajectory manipulation. For those of you that do try it, good luck, it will serve you well.

Like someone told me not too long ago, the cutting edge is a lonely place. Adios amigos, it has been fun. By the way, I'll still be there in October, wouldn't miss if for the grand prize lottery.

Later shooters, and the rest of you.
Trigger50
Trigger50
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 13:41:37 (ZULU) 

Just wondering.

Btw, thanks much for the load information guys! I'll put the apron on this weekend and start cooking:)
 

Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 13:58:01 (ZULU) 

Trigger,
Now that all the P*^%$# and territory has been marked why don't you stick around and defend yourself?? Gooch and Rick have had a lot to say and we didn't always agree with them either but if Rick is a "Burned Out instructor" he's still damn knowledgeable about the art of long range shooting and has gone out of his way to help us out when asked. Pablito has a lot to offer and we argue with him and he didn't leave (well there was that time for a while). I know sometimes we probably get to personal but if you believe in what you saying go for it!! If you expect everyone to agree with you on this sight then you should leave, if not stick around you may even learn something. Were not all snipers on here a lot of us are long range varmint shooters who shoot at 9" targets 3" wide at out to a 1000yds and sometimes we even hit them. We don't hunt men, we hunt amimals that are prediators and damn smart, with a smell and an eyesight you would kill to have. We have people on here who know more about guns and ballistics than any one person can absorb so if your up for the "FIGHT" stick around and defend you view, but just don't expect us all to agree with you because it won't happen, if we all liked the same thing we whould all be divorced from the same woman!! Just my thought for what its worth.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 15:04:13 (ZULU) 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Tired of the bullshit, in IL., USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 15:59:40 (ZULU) 

Correct me if I am wrong, but dont millitary snipers go on non combat missions?

Ya gota like those little tatical carbines, got one gona build another some day. just wish I could get one in 308.

My question boils down to, is there a time when a sniper teams defensive weapon does not require the m-16s rate of fire ,but would be better served with a fast aiming 308 bolt gun?

The scout scope is very similar to the aimpiont ml you tested. Its not necessary to have perfect eye relief or cheek weld. Like you said in your review its amazing how accurate they are. Simply put they are just an improvement over iron sight with out the disadvantages of a high power scope. Nice for us people with bad eyes.

For those who dont know me. I have been a friend of Scotts for a long time know, before ether of use interest in sniping evolved. Just got on line and have been really enjoying SC.

Gooch, Mike, Rick, most people dont like to talk about thier jobs on thier down time, I am sure glade you guys do thanks I am leaning a lot.

CJ
non fling bee
CJ <T18MAN@GATEWAY.NET>
Newcastle, de, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 16:07:47 (ZULU) 

hey Gooch ,when you were a young marine could you have ever imaging how much time you would be spending in front of a keyboard.

CJ
non fling bee
CJ <T18MAN@GATEWAY.NET>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 16:26:48 (ZULU) 

This site is great for learning. I experiment with 155 Palmas and share my info. I ask for info on 175's and many send me their data. I need lession plans and Gooch is the first to help. You obviously have some point of views to share. Don't be thin skinned, no SF guy ever took the easy route.

I am still waiting for the info you said you would send. If you want a sling I will need a mailing address and a Name to send it to. A real name so I can write it off my taxes.

We all have egos and the only man I know that can truly beat me is myself.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 16:39:22 (ZULU) 

Paul,
I only know what I have read about the Choate stocks. They seem to be on the heavy side for most peoples liking but with a 300WM this would be a nice feature to help with recoil. Its in the family of the clones coming off of the AWS rifle stock. From what I read they seem to be plenty durable but like most things,some liked it, some didn't, but since you already have one you can tell us what you think after you've had it for awhile.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 17:21:18 (ZULU) 

Here's what I really wanted to ask:

I went back through some of Cold Shot and Tips and read through some of the cut down versions of those conversations. I'm doing my research before buying a nice spotting scope to replace the Bushnell I'm currently using. I'm searching for a waterproof scope that will deliver at least 25 power of good image. A rubberized/tactical coating on the body would be nice. I'd also like a reticle if possible. I _think_ I would prefer a fixed power scope as well. Right now the Leupold 25X is at the top of my list. I like what everyone's said about the Kowa's but they're not 100% waterproof.

OK, let's hear some options... I don't think I can go too wrong with the Leupold, but I'm still open to suggestion.
 

Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 17:23:28 (ZULU) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 17:49:19 (ZULU) 

I resent any inference to the contrary.

Still, all of you are ALWAYS welcome to comment as long as you can keep it civil. We are all here to learn. The education never stops. No one will agree at all times but that is no reason to be derogatory or insulting. We provide the roster so you all can exchange ideas. I fail to see why this has to turn into a war zone every time someone has a disagreement. I am not reading anyone the riot act. For the most part everyone understands what we are trying to accomplish here. But at times I think every one of us needs to look into the mirror and repeat "I ain’t nothin’ special in the grand scheme of the universe" just to keep things in perspective. We all have our mocrocosims, but in 50 years no one will care.

Trigger you may stay or go but please do not judge this site by the conversations presented on the roster. That is an unfair assessment of what those of us who created and maintain it are about. The Roster is provided for everyone’s entertainment and mutual education, but it is not THE site. It may be the most visited part but that is because people are social animals and like to share their interest. But SC would drive on with out it. Please all, do not forget this. Keep the debates going. But keep ego out of it. If someone has something to offer, listen, debate, and trade ideas. But knock off the battle of words. Like I said, until a real war breaks out, everyone here is on the same side, be they Finn, Russian, Korean, South African, American, or even one of those long winded Brits who could make my rantings look like a paragraph from "See Spot Run".

Sorry for the soap box. Now go have fun.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 18:06:46 (ZULU) 

In military terms, you certainly don't need to be introducing Steyr or Savage Scouts into the supply system. Then there's the additional training, the added complication of introducing an alternate weapon to a sniper team, etc. For police work, a scout would probably work in a lot of situations, especially with a well-trained trigger-puller. But I really don't seem to be able to mesh the concept of rifle-armed cops in "non-combat" missions.

I like the scout rifle concept for some things. I own a home-modified scout, have fired other scout rifles and handled many others. I agree with most of what Col. Cooper has to say and I'm part of the "Orange Gunsite Family". But unlike the Colonel I don't think it's a choice for the military or in this case as a spotter's weapon. Something like an AR-15 (police) or M4/M203 (military) seems like a much more versatile weapon. I think it compliments a .308 bolt gun nicely, probably in too many ways to list here.

Trigger: What you had to say was interesting in any case. But walking in here (virtually of course) and then departing abruptly when people disagree with your methods or the way you presented yourself... It doesn't help you get your side across. Of course your "cutting edge" is going to be a lonely place when you ditch the audience and skulk out of a crowded room when you get some flak.

I for one enjoyed the discussion and presentation of opposing schools of thought. On the other hand I don't think that slinging mud at guys like Gooch & Rick is going to get you far here. These guys have a long track record of going out of their way to help nitwits like me out with their problems or questions. They have a mountain of good will backing them up.
 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 18:14:52 (ZULU) 

Sh*t! Two soap boxes in one day. Thats it. I am going to sign off for a bit until I get my bearings! ;-)
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 18:18:36 (ZULU) 

Someone was looking for a source for the "Brookfield" mount for the M14/M21. They are being sold by Entreprise, at www.entreprise.com (not Enterprise).
Pablito
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 18:54:46 (ZULU) 

I try to adhere to a philosophy that a wise old man once told me: Never borrow your friend's enemies. I have spoken with Dean a number of times, both by email and land line. He shared freely with me, and, always ended the conversation with "go try it". Spoke volumes, those words. Also have corresponded with Rick, and he shared freely. I appreciate the info from both, hope to share a beer with both one day.

Couple guys saddled ol' trigger up pretty rough here. That's cool, if that is how you choose to live. Being the new kid in more than one school myself, don't know what it taught anyone, other than teaching me how to fight. I am curious though, as to how many of the saddlers went out and "tried" what Dean was talking about? Anyone? Pity if you didn't...it put a new marble in my game bag. Makes me look at my old M1A with a whole new affection.

Way I see it, when the door locks and the bullshit stops, I want all the angles I can get. Don't see where head shot ability and body shot tricks are mutually exclusive deals. Perhaps there are degrees of dead, and I just don't know it.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 19:49:18 (ZULU) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, Peoples Republic of California, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 19:50:30 (ZULU) 

Bruce,
maybe some of us did come down a little to hard on trigger. I for one wasn't disagreeing with what he said only the way he reacted when questioned about it. I remember when we were arguing about the 300wm vs the 06 vs the 308 and Torf told us we need to look a the 6.5 because it was as flat or flatter than the 300wm and I told him in so many words he was full of it, to think my beloved 300wm could be out shot by a whimpy 6.5 and being the pro he is, he said look it up and I did and I was wronge!! Then he turned around and talked me into building one!! Like has happened so many times before on here we tend to look at things through different glasses and when we are not face to face typed words don't always come across the way we intended them to. I think trigger probably has some good ideas and like you, I am here to fill my marble bag with all I can. I think the reverse image would work great on man size targets and I plan on trying it too but try it on 5x5 and 7x10 to 14x14 targets out to a 1000yds when you don't have a clue what the range is. I didn't believe in the mils either but if you don't have a range finder your going to miss, if your range finder doesn't pick them up you will miss but if you know how to use mils like a certain Marine you are going to hit a lot of them as he did. Thats why I now have a mil dot scope and my trusty mil dot master. I am hard headed but I aint stupid!!! I guess all I am saying is we can agree to disagree without getting feathers all ruffled up when someone says BS, like Torf said ,"Try it prove me wronge". I questioned the spin drift because in all my shooting over 500yds to many other things come into play to make it unnoticable and that was my and several others opinions thats all. I am sure trigger is probably correct but I just didn't think it was a factor and said so.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 20:46:50 (ZULU) 

We ain't choir boys and we don't teach basket weaving. Think this is bad, you ought to visit a few bars in Benning, Bragg, Lejuene, Pendleton, etc. There is a certain etiquette followed when you are around others in the community, whatever that community is, SF, Ranger, Sniper, Marine, Recon, SEAL, whatever. No chest thumping, no ego's, no testosterone, just a demand for respect. If you violate this rule you get your ass kicked, BAD. We trust our lives to each other. We want people that deserve that trust, we want team players, not ME ME ME people. I WILL die for my brother sniper, Marine or Soldier. But I won't let the title be tainted either.

No one ever banned anyone or used names (until this individual did).

Trigger, I found a lot of what you were saying interesting, but when you started the "my dog's better than yours" we had a problem.

I think there is a Chinese proverb that goes something like, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't cast the first stone or you'll break a closet door and get splinters in your feet". Or words to that effect.

I'm over it. Come on back and show a little humility and respect.

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 21:40:30 (ZULU) 

As far as what Trigger said about the manuals. I have also read some things that trouble me. For one, elevation changes with temperature. Maybe this was true at one time but according to Hodgdon powder, that is the strength of Varget powder, is that the velocity stays the same.
Also I have read in the manuals that humid air is more dense than dry air and requires more elevation. I have read elswhere that the reverse is true. Anyone care to set me straight?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 22:44:00 (ZULU) 

Gooch, I ain't Dean's mama. I assume he can take care of himself. If he can't, well, too bad. Dean's posts just got me thinking, not arguing. Thinking to the point that I went out to see if it worked. It did, for me. So, I tucked it away...after saying thanks. Am I throwing away the mil dot? In fact just sent another scope to premiere reticle on Friday. As for basketweaving, or whatever, I didn't pop out of an egg shell and onto this list. I have been in a few of the places you mention and, rather enjoyed myself. That the gloves got dropped quickly just added to the fun. No ego, no testosterone? I guess I didn't make it into that particular bar. There are tough places wherever you want to find them, military town or not.
 

Old Dog

On a more relevant note, who says Old dogs can't learn new tricks? Pablito brainwashed me into buying a M70. She arrives on a bus Thursday:)
 
 
 
 
 
 

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 23:44:29 (ZULU) 

I think that this was answered here before or maybe that was in some other forum. But!

Humid air is LESS dense dry air. The reason is that water molecules at 18 g/mole are lighter than air at 28 g/mole (air is mostly nitrogen). So a mole of dry air will have a mass of 28 grams and occupy a specific volume. If the same volume is occupied by both air and some water vapor (humidity) some of the air is displaced in that volume by the lower molecular weight water. If you really want to see relationship of dry air and moist are at various temperatures find a Hand Book of Chemistry and Physics for all the details and formulae.

Sorry for all the chemistry nomenclature.
 

Jerry <JerryK-one@juno.com>
So. Cal, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 09, 1999 at 23:49:56 (ZULU) 

On spin drift... when I said that I don't pay it much attention at 600, I didn't mean to suggest it doesn't exist, just that there are other things that introduce bigger errors at that distance... mostly wind, and the real unseen bitch, cant... which I never paid much attention to until it was demonstrated to me how much it effects the lateral shift, and then the 3 and 9 o'clock shots are blamed on mis reading the wind. Between cant and wind, the spin drift at 600 is lost, but the effect of spin drift gets worse, as the bullet's vertical drop increases by the square of the time of flight...
P.S... now all of my long distance rifles carry bubble levels.

Old Dog... It was easy... Talking you into a M70 is like talking an Old Dog into eating steak, instead of Spam!
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 00:34:15 (ZULU) 

I saw your answer to the guy looking to buy a Brookfield scope Mount for the M14/M1A. Fulton Armory sells them for about $225. I tried several others before I got the Brookfield. It is very good. It doesn't shoot loose like the others. Also, it is much lower to the receiver than the rest. It takes a little longer to setup, but it is worth the extra trouble.

Bill B
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Shelbv County, KY, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 00:40:06 (ZULU) 

I know this is a little late, but in reference to reverse twist, it is known as left hand twist to barrelmakers such as myself. 303 brit uses a left hand twist (according to SAAMI) and some handgun calibers use a "reverse twist". I personally do not know the benefit, downfall of a lh twist, just lettin' ya know they are out there.

Trigger:

Everyone here is pretty casual. I read your information, and took it as it was, information. Not 'his way is better than so and so's,' just plain old info. Something new to think about. As technology advances, so must we I say. But do not knock what works at present, yes there are numerous variables that today's scopes do not and can not account for, but they do their job well enough for the people who use them. Use some tact when introducing a new idea, be fair to the ol' tried and true, except when R@#$% speak emerges its weary head, ha! Ya don't have to be nice, just respectful of those of us who consider this site to be a goldmine of ideas, old and new. I have plenty of opportunities to knock many of the synthetic rifle stocks that people on this site use. I choose not to because if Joe Blow thinks a certain stock is perfect for him, than it is. If it works then go for it. Just try not to get too personal with your agenda.

too many words

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city , sd, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 01:47:37 (ZULU) 

A recent Tactical Shooter article by Rod Ryan discussed this topic in reference to using the Barrett .50 BMG rifle comes to mind.

Would military snipers be deployed on this type of mission, or is it considered a task that is carried out by basic infantrymen ?

Not knowing otherwise,I would believe if a highly valuable target needed to be engaged with small arms,you presumably want your best shooters on the mission;therefore my question.

I would really like to hear from from Gooch and Rick on this. Trigger,I'd like to hear from you as well if you haven't already packed your bags and left for good.

Would the .308 cal. SWS be considered effective enough against target such as aircraft at the ranges these soldiers would be expected to be deployed at ?

Do you guys have an opinion on the use of a .338 cal. weapons system in this role?

Hey guys,inquiring minds want to know !

Best Regards,
from just another 'bee
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S. (It's not a state...yet), Canada - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 02:02:50 (ZULU) 

cheers

PS in the southern hemisphere do I have to calculate
spindrift in reverse?

just kiddin, I got alot out of that debate, in more ways
than one...
darryl todd <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
OZ - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 02:12:59 (ZULU) 

The weakness of the gun is the scope. Wonderful, two-eyes open scope, with 2 miles of eye relief. The stock heavy reticle though will obscure all but the largest at 200 meters and out. A thin reticle can be had for like $20, I think. A friend that has one hated the gun, then ditched the scope and mounted a regular scope. Now, he treats it much more kindly:)

The gun is perfect for what it is: A one gun fits all, quick pointing, light, durable, snap shooting, only gun. I feel the gun would be very good on human sized moving targets so long as range was close to a short medium. I like the gun. If you are thinking about buying one, contact me. It really is a gun you should shoot before the green leaves your hands.
 

Old Dog
Bruce
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 02:18:15 (ZULU) 

Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 03:53:39 (ZULU) 

Man the steak comment is rich! Am I now to believe the the M70 is a steak and the Rem700 is SPAM? Any other analogies? Perhaps Leupold is MadDog 20/20 and the ART II is 25 year old Wild Turkey? Sorry man, you left that so wide open for comment...

Should put my boots on before I came in here, because it's getting pretty deep now... Have a good night...
 

Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 05:33:16 (ZULU) 

Doh! I hate being wrong... I guess I assumed old dog had been using a Rem700 before. Not that you wouldn't take a cheap shot at the 700 vs the M70 if given the chance... ;) Oh well, I knew there'd be a come a day that I'd be wrong.

PS. EVERYONE needs boots to wade through the roster...
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Lousville, KY, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 09:51:02 (ZULU) 

Well, I was smiling when I composed my post, but not when I read your reply. I think the humor of the moment got lost somewhere in there. Sorry this got dragged through the roster...
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 12:10:58 (ZULU) 

How much does the twist, right or left hand, affect the torque of the rifle ?

Does the torque have anything to do with the direction the rifle moves during recoil ???

Fullauto´s tend to move to one side, now is that the torque or the empties bouncing of the ejector ???

What about those barrels that start with a shallow twist and then exell the rate towards the muzzle ?

Fill my empty brain !!!!

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
DE - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 12:27:29 (ZULU) 

BEERogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 13:53:22 (ZULU) 

That was my mistake. A friend of mine got a Styer Scout and I tried it out,& almost wish I hadn't. After shooting it, I had to have one. It was a lot of green to put down for that kind of rifle, but it compliments the precision rifles in my safe nicely.

Back to the spotters gun.Its seems the AR/M16 is the best choice, but I am confused about the configurations. I have seen uppers listed as M4 with either a flat top or care handle. My question is what kind of sight receiver comb would work best for the snipers defensive weapon?

Paul

I have had a Chaote sniper stock for over a year now. I like it. It's a good stock for my savage 7mm mag.I don't know if I'd put one on a Rem 700 or Win M70.There are too many other good stocks out there to choose from. I modifyed the grip a little to fit me better. You may want to put a softer recoil pad on it. My biggest improvement came from installing a miller custom railmount for my bipod. I got it from Brownells pt# 630-100-000 $25 phone # 515-623-5401. The Chaote mount is very loose when used with a Harris bipod. The stock shoots from the prone very nicely.

CJ
 

CJ <T18MAN@GATEWAY.NET>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 14:55:02 (ZULU) 

I hate to disagree with Pablito, but a turbine shot through the intake will not disable a plane for long. Modern military planes are designed to switch out engines easily - say a day or two, if a spare is available. If they catch the bullet hole before trying to start it.

Also, a side shot into the compressor or turbine areas may not have any effect. Some planes have kevlar or other material there in they do shed a blade. A turbine disk disintegrating at 180,000 rpm could otherwise destroy the plane.

Best solution - find out the layout of the plane before going on such a mission. Or ask a flyboy.

Many planes were shot down by small arms fire in Vietnam, especially early on. Apparently, one of the problems was that the backup hydraulics were run right next to the primaries, like civilian practice, so a hit to the primary often took out the secondary as well. No hydraulics - no control. Ever had one of those days? Anyway, the next generation seperated the systems.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 14:59:42 (ZULU) 

Combat planes are designed to take hits from 20mm and 23mm rounds. We found out in the Gulf that they can do that and still fly. It's not hard to hit a 50' long by 8' high target, but many hits won't be critical. Shot placement on the target is much more important than on humans or other critters.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn cold, MN, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 15:05:01 (ZULU) 

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee
Ogden, KS, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 16:18:14 (ZULU) 

BEERogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 17:34:45 (ZULU) 

So for me, where I in the military and had a choice, it would be a flat topped M4 with Aimpoint for most close environments, or a plain old M4 with iron sights. If the terrain dictated it, I’d much prefer a full length M16 flat top with a heavy barrel and a choice of optics. If I REALLY had my druthers and the mission allowed it, I’d stick the main rifle in a shoulder carried drag bag and BOTH shooters would carry - One M16A2 based flat top and one M4 Carbine. Big problem there though: That nice target indicator sticking up above your snipers head!

Now if you are talking police work. Hmmm…A scout is a fair option in that the spotter will hopefully not need it anyway, but why not just give him an LTR or full size rifle? There is little advantage to the Scout once the team is in position. It certainly is not much good for self defense in close quarters. He’d be better served by an MP5 or even a pistol. If the guy is lucky he has an SRT doing all the ground work and covering his ass anyway - so I guess he "might" not need a gas gun like the M4 unless he is in some pretty nasty parts of the city. If he IS in urban hell, then the scout rifle is only as good as that proverbial tent peg. If he has to provide his own team security, again, I see little use for the scout. When facing multiple targets at very close range it would be as useful as the main weapon. In other words a one shot baseball bat. Give him real firepower.

I must admit to not being familiar with Cooper’s scout concept. It is probably well thought out and good to go. I just have never read it and maybe my shinking gray matter can't phathom it. For me personally I view any scout concept as an extension of the mountain rifle phenomena in hunting gear. A good light weight carry-all rifle used for hunting game in the high mountains where a heavier rifle is not ideal. Targets are limited to close range and they don't shot back. IN other words, hunting in hilly bush. But I would not think that readily translates over to a military combat/police use. Big game don’t shoot back. A spotter in either situation needs both fair accuracy AND firepower. You ain’t gonna get that from a bolt type scout rifle. Call me a chicken but I value my butt and would rather have the M4.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 17:39:29 (ZULU) 

BeeRogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 17:40:42 (ZULU) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, California, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 17:57:32 (ZULU) 

Like a good hunter any sniper intent on shooting any military aircraft needs to study the working of his target enough to find out into which boiler room to best place his round. Realistically though, at some of the ranges these .50 cal guys shoot I think I’d be happy with ANY hit! This is why GOD invented API. Amour Piercing Incendiary. Or the 155 mike mike…. ;-)

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 18:01:39 (ZULU) 

Been shooting for about 10 years now, mostly hunting. I'm sure I will have some more questions later but, will some one tell me what a sniper needs a log book or data book for and are they the same thing???
 

Thanks
Bob Ricoh <riccochet@netscape.net>
Dayton, OH, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 18:37:28 (ZULU) 

Pablito
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 18:39:40 (ZULU) 

The articulation of the use for the Scout gun I have truly is the $1,000,000 question. This is how I see it, in a nutshell: The Cooper Scout rifle will do whatever it is you now use a 308 for, except at long range [ie., military sniper distance]. Think of it as a lighter, quicker Robar QR2? If you opt for the 10 round mag option, you have a bolt gun that has a 15- 20 round total capacity and the time needed to access the rounds [change mags] is seconds.

While I am not in LE, given the distances of sniper work, the Scout could, with some handloading, easily be the main weapon. At 70 yards, what is the differnce between 1/2 and 3/4 MOA? Realistically speaking.

You should play with this gun. While it will never replace the long distance sniper tools, and will not be the weapon of choice for close encounters [though neither would the MP5, for me] all bolt guns have problems at near distances, if for no reason other than being scoped too much.

When it warms up, contact me and I will ship this to you for some play. It is a niche gun, but then so is the 15pnd sniper rifle.
 

Old Dog

Bruce
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 18:40:27 (ZULU) 

Others: the big crunch has come...I am busy trying to frantically select a scope for my rifle. I'm having a .300 Win Mag built (I've got the cash, will put down a fat ugly deposit over the next day or so and apply for my licence) that should have a guaranteed 6" group or less at 1000 yards. (Whether *I* can do that is another story....) so now....what glass to go for?
I was thinking of going for the 4.5x to 14x Leupold Mk4 (with Mil-dot of course) since it appears to me that x10 is a little restrictive if you do a lot of shots over 700 yards, which I am planning on learning how to do.
I was thinking it would be great to have some kind of x12 scope , I am Leupold biased though, and still unsure as to zoom or fixed power.

All comments welcome and all e-mails will be replied to, but please e-mail directly to russellp@iafrica.com

Thanks guys, I know I'm just sponging info, but as soon as I have learnt something I'll give some back.
Joe
Joe <russelp@iafrica.com>
Cape Town, South Africa - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 20:57:02 (ZULU) 

I was at McMillan when their .50s were being developed in the mid-80s. There were two big influences in their development, both of which were, at least roundaboutly, about engaging materiel: the Malta incident with the plexiglass, and the desire to engage Syrian equipment in the hills around the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon with suppressed fire using HE Raufoss rounds if all the American hostages were located an a rescue attempt made. I believe these requests originated from NAVSPECWAR, as most .50s went there eventually.

Wouldn't want to be the poor s.o.b. standing next to a terrorist leader when a .50 blew through the windshield though!

Michael Novack <mnovack@amug.org>
Phoenix, AZ, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 22:05:21 (ZULU) 

I wish I could remember where I saw pictures of Noriega's plane on the runway after it was made very, very inoperative. I seem to recall that .50s were used, along with maybe some LAW.

Non-sequitur: I have to say that a Weaver V16 with a 4" sunshade looks *very* peculiar when mounted on an M1A-A1. I'm gonna get funny looks at the range on Friday...

dave <dave@broadsword.com>
san jose, ca, USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 23:06:54 (ZULU) 

On the Scout gun: Bruce, my problem with the concept as stated above was in answer to its use as a spotters/back-up weapon. For that role I firmly believe a semi or full auto rifle is far more appropriate. We were talking real use in hot LZs. be they LE or Military. Having a second bolt gun on the team makes little sense if there are nasty people out and about.
Now as to the topic of a scout rifle being used as the main sniper rifle for ranges under 200 meters: This is an entirely different matter and one I'd have to look into. I still think the Short barreled LTR might be better suited to the role but with out some thorough testing I just can not form an educated position.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 10, 1999 at 23:26:35 (ZULU) 

The sniper uses a data book to rcord his firing results and all elements that had an effect on firing the weapon. The information recorded covers everything from weather condition to the sniper's attitude on that particular day.

The sniper refers to this information later to help him understand his weapon, the effects of weather, and his own firing abilities.

The data book (when utilized correctly) will also provide the necessary information for initial sight settings at each distance and it provides a basis for analyzing the performance of the sniper and his particular weapon system.

The best snipers I know would not be able to hit POA POI if they were unable to analyze their performance, or worse yet, if they had record of their performance or condition affecting firing.

Here at school we issue a data/log book together as one. I think most experienced snipers will agree that they should be seperated.

The data book should have all pertinent info for that particular rifle and results, along with a few charts and diagrams, i.e. windage charts, lead charts,etc. (basically a range book)

The log book should be filled with the tactical info such as sketches, observation logs, etc. (a field book)

I know this is pretty vague, but hope it helps.

Later,

SSG Cady
Ft Benning, GA, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 01:00:46 (ZULU) 

Since it was me that started this thread on shooting hard targets let me be the first to say that I had no intention on bringing this type of discussion to discuss the destruction of civilian property.

My questions were regarding the use of military snipers in the role of shooting valuable non-human targets on the battlefield,not the playground.

I completely understand your position as a Staff Member of this great web site.I quite realize that we sometimes have to talk in general terms around here to avoid giving out information that may in one way or another lead to the death or injury of innocent bystandards by some crazy that shouldn't be allowed to be on this site to begin with.

I would be personally devestated if someone said I gave them the "inspiration" to shoot innocent civilians on a commercial airliner because of a thread that I started on this forum.

Let me share a little story with you...

Just recently a good friend of mine,who is a welder by trade,obtained some scrap armour plate used to build doors for a customer I am not at liberty to say.

Anyway,we conducted some very interesting tests on these plates to find out which calibers were able to defeat the armour plate.The results were fairly surprising.Some calibers considered as the Holy Grail on this site did absolutely squat on the plates,while other "lessor" calibres did surprisingly well.

My point being is that I've been dying inside to tell you guys about this,but I've intentionally held off specifically for the reasons you have mentioned.

I don't consider the results of our tests to be especially important or even interesting to most.We had one hell of a fun time doing it though! However,I don't want this type of info falling into the wrong hands either.

If you think the test results are pertinent to topics discussed here at Sniper Country,I might be persuaded to write a short article on it.If so,please let me know.

I only wish to discuss the relevant issues that face military snipers on today's battlefield and the doctrine used to deploy them.

I don't often post here because I really just enjoy sitting back and listening to what others have to say.Especially from the guys who have "been there & done that".I seem to learn more that way.

Thanks,

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 01:12:54 (ZULU) 

Sorry folks, B.Rogers is a knowlegable man and I enjoy most of his posts, but he's got an attitude problem from what I can see.
 

bill m <billmohr@borg.com>
central, ny, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 02:58:37 (ZULU) 

PS did they get sarge yet?
Thanks Jeff
Jeff Cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
memphis, tn, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 03:15:01 (ZULU)

Thanks
Bob Ricoh <riccochet@netscape.net>
Dayton, OH, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 04:23:19 (ZULU) 

Torsten:

Full-auto's are gas-operated, right. well c'mon now, the 'pull effect would have nothing to do with the twist but from the ejection of the empty brass, wherever the gas is trying to escape to reload the next cartridge. Well, now, I won't say that the twist has nothing to do with torque, because there probably would be a slight difference between right and left hand twists, I think we need to ask some Enfield users. The gyroscopic spin of the projectile would seem to pull to the right on the LH twists and to the left on RH twists, as the action-reaction law would imply. Talk to some handgunners, the 10mm and 40 S&W have opposite twists, same barrel, get their input. Ask some Aussies if their turds seem to flush at different rates than our American counterparts. And I think you spoke of gain twist barrels, such as where the twist begins at 19.25" and ends at 8.25", I've made 'em, don't like makin' em, seems like they would do more harm than good for jacketed bullets.

Once again, too many words, or maybe too many Bud Lights, time for siesta.
 
 
 
 
 

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 04:55:48 (ZULU) 

Yes, you can probably take out an engine and put it down for a day. I'd go for the hot section rather than the compressor. I think it would be pretty hard to do sufficient damage to disable one for a long period of time given their current designs.

I find it interesting there is concern about putting out "sensitive" information, or information that might "fall into the wrong hands". With the ability to buy just about any military manual today, or to find just about anything on the Internet (including how to build a thermonuclear weapon), I chuckle that describing the effects of .30 caliber weapons on commercial aircraft windshields raises concerns. Trust me, the bad guys have already got that information.

I don't see any problem with discussing disabling commercial aircraft as a valid topic of LE-sniping. Someone that has criminal intentions can find information easily enough if they want. The information is much more likely to be useful to LE-snipers on here than any dirtbag that decides to peruse the data.
Mark Thomen <thomen@ibm.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 05:51:39 (ZULU) 

C-H-I-L-L BREATHE IN AND OUT, IN AND OUT...............
 

Loflyin Cooper,
First thing, Get Kuhnhausens book on .45s. Best reference book PERIOD!
Check mainspring housing internals, hammer strut and disconnector with frame partially assembled and just enough tension to allow parts to engage and cycle with slide off. Do they work then?
Did ya put on an aftermarket grip safety that may be preventing the hammer from completing activation/cocking cycle? Pretty common thang.

The dude stumbles off to bed, shaking his head at the childrens behavior while hes been gone......................

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 05:51:47 (ZULU) 

D. West
The range opens in a few weeks. Want to go try out your new Remington-Leupold rig? I don't care how deep the snow is I'm going shooting soon. Send me a message and we'll set up trip to the range.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 06:20:44 (ZULU) 

got the sketch, makes sense, I´ll make a field kit for it containing:

6 Aluminum tubing posts(could use tent poles,but)
39,27 Meters of OD string
roll up type tape measure(2 Meter)
5 handgrenade rings
an old antenna bag
wax pencil
sheet of white plasic

string will be portioned/marked with some handgranade rings in distance A(your 100ft, I´ll use 30 M) half of that for distance B your 50ft). String will be longer than A so that after staking A and measuring B you have enough marked length to go back to A for a clean 90° angle A to B. 2 Meter tape measure will be plenty long enough because anything over 2 meters on ether side would make it closer than 112,5 meters.

O------7,50--------O---1,77---O-------------15--------------O---------------15----------------O

If I´ll be real high tech then I´ll put in TWO tape measures and a
calculator for a MK II +P version !!!!!!!! ;-)

I´ll play with it during our next range visit and calibrate it on a 300 meter range and will send funny pics of us staking the ground.

"ENDE"

of to the IWA Show
 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
ranging church steeples, in, Germany - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 11:33:12 (ZULU) 

When I was in the Marines, they told us that a fully loaded-for-bear infantry Marine could weigh as much as 400-450lbs. This can include things like a morter pad, radio, extra M-60 ammo belts, flak jacket, a FULL pack and all the other deuce gear,... We were told that the US Marines more than once impressed the hell out of other similar units in other countries by bringing lots of gear on the body, yet remaining fully mobile and functional.

I can honestly say I never carried anything more than maybe 80lbs. And the most I saw was maybe 120, but the stories were there. I'm sure that things were a bit different in the days before easy helecopter access, when the only way you were going to get it was that you humped it in.

Not a deffinative answer, but I know that that even 80-120lbs is impressive enough when you think about it.

SEmper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Minneapolis, MN, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 13:28:28 (ZULU) 

I've found that through both civilan backpacking and grunt activities that I can handle about an extra 30 lbs or so when a ruck is packed right, the ruck is designed right and the wearer wears it right. Not too many grunts have had a class on how to adjust and wear a ruck. Its usually, "Here, load up and slap this thing on!"

THe old Small ALICE (USMC issue 'round 1980) without sufficient hip/strap padding and its worthless hip belt couldn't haul much comfortably. But when they came out with the good hip/strap padding and the functional hip belt it helped alot. PLus a lot of guys have made good use of puss pads and duct tape to add extra padding and Ranger Joes and others sell modified pads. I've had my Vector mountain ruck up to about 80 lbs for some training humps but the internal frame doesn't bear as well as an external one does.

A lot of weight can be saved these days throught he use of the little water filters available now a days as a couple of gallons of water can bump the weight up real fast.

Bill Rogers. There is some room in the corner over here.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 15:03:19 (ZULU) 

Anyone with experience using an internal frame pack? The are far superior in comfort and usually in load capacity too. I don't see these packs being used for military service though.

I worked as a back country guide in the Appalachians for a couple of summers. It was customary for the guide to carry 'extras' such as radios, a 15 pound med kit, extra water, climbing gear, etc. I used a Mountainsmith Frostfire II pack which is an internal frame pack. It was basically a rugged hip support system with vertical aluminum splints. Shoulder straps were really only used for lateral stablization. For grins we weighed our packs, my standard pack was 90 pounds. I couldn't believe this number so I rechecked on another scale, same results. For long distance internal frame packs are the way to go, the feel like a dream.

I'm curious if anything similar for tactical use. ie camo and mil-spec tested. The Frostfire II is 5500 cubic inches. It's a very nice pack, it's just made with bright colors (so people can be seen easily in the woods). Comment?
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 17:18:52 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 17:28:23 (ZULU) 

Anyhow, internal frame packs have had a lot of military field use. The Brits have used them in large quantities including in the Falklands, Desert Storm, etc. The Berghaus bergens they use aren't sold in the US though as far as I can tell, and they're expensive at about £200 (US$320) new. They're made of 16 oz. cordura, usually in OD green (I've seen Brit packs in DPM camo, but not sure if they're the same packs), and hold about 3000 cu. inches. The Brits have carried a lot of weight in these things. I'll be testing one shortly, god help me!

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 17:52:25 (ZULU) 

On the left hand vs right hand twist. If you are real recoil sensitive use a left hand twist if you are right handed. and vice- versa if you are left handed. Wont help the backward thrust but the comb of the stock should torque away from the shooters face if the proper twist is used. If you are not recoil sensitive but want the maximum advantage that a different twist can give you, depending on which hemishere you plan to shoot, the twist direction can counter the Coriolus effect, and reduce the Magnus effect by maybe as much as 25 percent depending on the load used. If you are unsure as to which twist to use to do this, do as JR suggests, the next time you need to use the toilet, watch which way the water swirls in the bowl as you say good-bye to the remnants of your last meal. I hope this helps!
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 23:36:25 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Thursday, March 11, 1999 at 23:49:47 (ZULU) 

The only alternative would be to make a limited access by password roster for GI's and LE and I really do not want to go that route.

Talk freely, but just be careful of how you word things. As long as you are killing terrorist and other sordid bad guys (grin) you can say anything you want. With in reason.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 00:35:15 (ZULU) 

Hey Rod, what did you end up carrying into Honduras? Blum try to slip in your ruck?

On the data books. I got into the habbit of dividing the rifle data/charts into a seperate book from the book with the record of fire (the one in which you record conditions and plot shots). I found I was always flipping pages from the record page to the necessary dope page. It got annoying when you have to turn the book 180 just to read it. So when I refer to a data book and a log book I guess I mean dope book and record of fire book. This is different than an Observation log book in which events are recorded. Does anyone else do this?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 01:02:07 (ZULU) 

The ruck got 4 qts of water, 6 extra 30 rnd mags, 1-claymore, 2 frags, 2 white smoke 1-red smoke, pvs-7B, extra batts for the radio and NVG, 4 pair socks, poncho (for my honey and me), STABO harness, and do do paper. At times extra stuff was carried but it was mission specific.

All the MREs (3) were broken down and placed into cargo pockets, meat on the right side blouse, yumies (poggy bait) on the left side blouse. Right side cargo pocket of the pants was for caffine and coco mix. When tired, mix the two dry and eat, no time for hot water. Good high for a while.

Left side pants cargo pocket held my map case, dummy corded of course.

The little man by the Pepsi machine, I dident have to carry, he showed up on his own when I was tired. Bad thing is that I never had any money on me.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 01:36:38 (ZULU) 

I have been lurking for awhile just absorbing all the information on here, thanks to all of you.

I don't own a gun, however I'm planning on buying one in the near future. I want to use it to punch paper at 300 - 400 yards and work up to 600-700. My local Wal-mart has a Remington 7400™ Synthetic, which is a semi-auto, in 30-06 and a Remington 700, bolt action, in .270. I want something that will be relatively accurate and after I become well familiarized with it, something that could be used if all heck ever broke loose. These can both be had w/o scopes for around $400, but for an extra $100 I could have Wal-mart order either one in .308. Would it be worth the extra $100 and/or would the bolt be better then the semi?

Thanks,
Dark Apache

Dark Apache <none>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 03:23:26 (ZULU) 

It is easy to keep a plane on the ground temporarily. Engine shots, landing gear shots (not just the tires, also the hydraulics that make 'em go up and down), cockpit. That just about covers it for a 30 cal weapon. 50 can do a little more. Military are a bit tougher than civilian.

They are incredibly difficult to permanently put out of action. In a battlefield situation, why waste your time doing damage that can be repaired in a day or two? Haul in a laser designator unit, then rely on somebody friendly at 40,000' with those neat guided bombs. You can also engage multiple AC in sequence without giving away your position.

As far as the A10 goes, forget it. Since it has a titanium tub around the pilot for 23mm protection, and can fly without one engine, one side of the tail, and 1/3 of a wing gone, the only thing left is to flatten a tire, and that can be fixed in minutes. BTW - don't try from the front. It has one of the biggest, baddest guns made pointed in your direction.

Anybody else wonder how one of those 30mm DU rounds would work in a anti-material rifle?

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold , Mn, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 03:48:24 (ZULU) 

For your first gun, especially to target practice with, stay with a bolt action in those high calibers. Keep it very simple at first. Frankly, I have always thought a good first gun to be a simple ol' .22 caliber. Ammo is cheap, you can practice, practice, practice, all on a $20 in ammo, plus the guns are cheap. Play with that for a while to see if you are a candidate for the high power rifle addiction. By then, you will know how to handle a rifle and it will be much more fun.

Good luck and be safe. Go to a good gun safety course.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 04:12:13 (ZULU) 

Bottom line on hydration is to eat as normally as you can, salt your chow and don't drink too much water or you will pee all of the electrolyte out of you. (Drink a little bit very frequently) Also alcohol should be avoided during a time frame when you are going to be out thrashing in heat during the day.

At last years D&L shoot this was a big issue for me as the weather got pretty warm on the second day of the field firing. Maj Brewer from Nebraska had some electrolyte pills that did good for me.

Biggest drawback to internal frame packs for me has been lack of ventilation. External frames like my Kelty get a lot more air between the back and the pack. Internal frames hug the body closer. I have had two internal frames (North face Kaksack and a Vector)and two externals (Alice and the Kelty) and each has its own strengths and weaknesses.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 04:25:03 (ZULU) 

Anthony Rhoda <aguidor@yahoo.com>
N.O., LA, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 05:34:43 (ZULU) 

-Robb

Robb <robb@mci2000.com>
KC, MO, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 05:55:26 (ZULU) 

-Robb

Robb <robb@mci2000.com>
KC, MO, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 06:15:36 (ZULU) 

That said, the most important thing to avoid dehydration problems, etc. was to start drinking before your body needed it because of the time it takes to absorb the water. As mentioned by someone earlier, regularly drinking small amounts was the way to go. Camelbacks seem to be ideal for this, plus they remain quiet so that noise discipline is not compromised by the sloshing of a half-full canteen.

M19 binocs: I have two questions. First, does anyone know the width of the stadia lines in mils? I'm not sure I can make use of something that small, but I want to give it a try.

Second, I was wondering if anyone had put Butler Creek flip-up covers on the objectives and/or eyepieces. If you have, please let me know the sizes. (I've sized with a chart, but would like a second opinion from someone who actually has tried them for fit.) TIA.
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 07:25:20 (ZULU) 

The number one reason gatorade works is the taste. People just like to drink it. To really prevent problems keep the electrolytes going in on a regular basis. The best way to do this is bananas. They contain a lot of potassium in a very natural source so it is easily used by the system. Being fully hydrated before starting the activity will also prevent most heat injuries.

As far as water washing out the electrolytes, it only happens when you drink an exteme amount of water quickly, more than sixteen ounces in a short time. Take a water break (or sip on your camel bak) at least once an hour to avoid dehydration. Remember thirst is not the same as dehydration! Normally you will cease to be thirsty before your body is full rehydrated. Drink because you know you have to, not just because you are thirsty.
The Shooter <shooter@unix.tamu.edu>
College Station, TX, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 07:37:24 (ZULU) 

Keep em on target!!!

Shooter <holligan36@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 12:59:53 (ZULU) 

I forgot to mention my dad owns a .22 Ruger that I have using to practice with. Doc could you tell me a little more about the difference between the Remington and the Savage? I was told by some one else that I shouldn’t get a Savage, that Remington was the way to go.

Thanks again for helping a FNG

Dark Apache

Dark Apache <none>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 13:31:57 (ZULU) 

Standard weight for a rucksack with personal equpment in the Norwegian Army is 22-25kg. In addition you get web-gear with mags, waterbottle and spade. Then you top it with a 4.6kg G3 or a 5kg sniperrifle. The unlucky ones get a 11kg MG3. Squad MG-ammo, LAV's, radios etc. are then devided evenly. Going downhill on skies with this setup can be exciting. I once bent a G3 so hard agaist a tree that the the bolt couldn't be moved inside the receiver :-)

Some units of Brig.North along the Russian border has a standard drill of 8 weeks in the field with this equipment, summer or winter in arctic climate. They are usually only resupplied with ammo, food, fuel, batteries, etc. This is not special forces but regular conscripts with 12 months duty.

Food for though:

How do you keep a sniperrifle zeroed behind enemy lines for 8 weeks on the move without being able to fire a single shot?

Solution:

Scope with reliable QD-mounts carried in protective case.

Ghilliesuits? Forget it...

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 14:37:39 (ZULU) 

Rule of thumb I have found to be helpful is if the activity is a heavy aerobic activity, and it will last for more than 1 hour, I try to drink some carbs / sugars. Gatorade is good for this. I try to alternate between water and gatorade, and the gatorade is mixed weak...simply due to taste [tastes too sweet during really hard work]. Back in me old triathalon days, I found this to work: If "work" was going to be less than 1.5 hours, and I was properly hydrated and fed prior, drink only water, eat nothing. Over 1.5 but less than 2.5-3.0 hours, water and some electro drink. Over 3 hours, water, electro drink, food [banana; figs; powerbar type food]. By the way, if you are going deep and for a day+, do not overlook these many different types of sports "bar" foods. Very easy to pack, lots of good stuff crammed in small package that is light. Weight of a dozen is nil, really. Go easy on pure fruit juices, unless you carry TP and don't mind stopping.

Old Dog
Bruce
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 14:40:46 (ZULU) 

Rick B and I have talked about this in the past. One of the things that I've seen is that during sustained operations such as an intense 2 week sniper course where guys were constantly dehydrating, hydrating, working hard (stalks, range work, FTX's etc) we found that eating was very inportant. It seems that the guys would get upset stomachs and reduce their eating but would drink more water resulting in the pissing out of the electrolytes. THe home brew I was talking about consisted of fruit juice (apple I think), a little salt, sugar and lots of water to dilute all of that. Stuff worked good but really got nasty in a camel back if you didnt rinse it out good..

Ghillies in warm weather are a bitch. COmbine that with a lot of crawling around in vegetation where the wind can't get to you and you can broil a bunch of fellers in a heart beat.

SSG Cady, how many IV's you guys go through during the summer courses at Benning?

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 15:26:34 (ZULU) 

Stay safe,
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
Getting ready for a blizzard in the Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 16:04:03 (ZULU) 

A couple of times I saw mention of using "power" food such as a Pemican Bar, Power Bar or Clif Bar. These are very good high carbo foods, BUT...

Without a good drink of water before and after eating these items, they cause swelling and expansion leading to stomach cramps. Like I said, good things to have but use carefully. I've been halfway up a 3 day climb laid out with wicked stomach cramps from those things. Not a fun place to find out about these effects...
Zero <zero@ntr.net>
Louisville, KY, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 17:20:34 (ZULU) 

I still think it was those black birds that would follow a platoon from tree to tree. We called them "f*ck-you birds". Everytime you tried to slink around, they'd F**K you!

I bet you liked that 10 cent soda though! Beat drinking the water that was gathered 100 meters DOWN river from where the locals bathed and urinated. Thank GOD for horse pills.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 19:39:01 (ZULU) 

I'll handle this one quickly guys. Flash milling is a method used to verify that a certain target is within a certain range. It is NOT used to determine the actual range of that target. The intended use was for Reverse Image Zero.

For example you wanted to verify that a human target was indeed closer than 500 meters. You take a real quick "flash mil" to see that the target is MORE than 2.0 mils from the crotch to the head. As long as the target is bigger than 2.0 mils, he is within 500 meters. The use of this is explained WAYYYYYYYYYY back up there.

Trigger 50
Trigger50
USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 21:17:10 (ZULU) 

Also, a glass question. I am settling my mind on the Leupold 4.5-14 x 50mm Long Range Tactical (with Mil-dots obviously). I am a little worried about mirage problems because Africa is HOT and Plaster reccommends no more than a x12 magnification. I figure however that given that I'm going for a very top quality rifle with guaranteed 1/2 MOA from the gunsmith (in black and white) I would try and make as many of my shots as possible at as far a distance as possible. Ideally over 800 yards and hopefully out to 1000 once I get the hang of this.
Given this, I figured the x14 would come in handier in these type of situations, without (hopefully) compromising my mirage problem too badly.
Suggestions? Comments?

All welcome. I would really Appreciate e-mail (I reply to every one) because I'm kind of short on time right now (have to work like a dog to pay off the bill this rifle is gonna rack up for me!) and it would save me a lot of time.

Thanks to all of you, it's always a pleasure to read the roster whenever I get a chance. Also, one final question...given that I'm a foreigner, would I one day be able to attend the Storm Mountain camp (you know...when I'm all growed up and have a bunch of cash to just get rid of...) ?

Thanks again,
Joe

Joe <russellp@iafrica.com>
Cape town, South Africa - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 21:53:40 (ZULU) 

Thanks for the informative email, and I whole heartedly agree with you on the long range shooting aspect of military snipers. The M24 weapon system we use in the US Army, along with M118, M852, and even the newer M118LR, it is extremely difficult, to say the least, to achieve a first round hit at the extended ranges. Here at school, we do familiarize students with shooting at 1000 yards, but our qualification tables are limited to 800meters (stationary), and 700 yards (movers). To ask any more of these students would be asking them to acoomplish more than their ammo and weapon are capable of.

Torsten,
I disagree with you on packing a ghillie suit. The ghillie suit is an invaluable tool for a sniper, especially when you consider that the only thing that keeps us alive, is our ability to remain unseen. A properly made ghillie suit (not the chewbacca type)should not weigh more than 10 pounds (on average). A compression sack will do wonders by allowing you to pack more in a relatively small place.

Gooch,
Hey, I'm just a grunt, you expect me to count that high? Seriously, we have to frequently give IV's to the students durring the summer months (a ghillie suit is not known for it's circulation). On the other hand, we have also had students who do overhydrate and end up having to medical drop from the course. This is something we as instructors monitor very carefully, but it still occurs.

Later,

SSAG Cady
Ft Benning, Ga, USA - Friday, March 12, 1999 at 22:43:09 (ZULU) 

Why I've taken a M40A1 and dropped it from the space shuttle and won Camp PErry with it wothout rezeroing!!

GOoch out
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 00:21:18 (ZULU) 

Now there are more accurate and more efficient 300 Magnum wildcats available out there but we are only looking at the 300 Win Mag and the 30-338.

As for me, I've shot both many many times, don't like getting slapped around. ((If I wanted that I would have stayed with my ex-wife). Give me a super accurate 308 with beautiful optics and I'm ready to take on SSGT Cady, Trigger50, Gooch, or who ever else decides to cross my bad-ass path. So there you have it Gentlemen!

See you soon!

al
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Livin' in the Lap of Luxury in a Grand State and also in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 01:22:14 (ZULU) 

Ofcource there are problems keeping zero. My point is that over a longer period of time in the field there is a greater chance of keeping zero with a QD-rig than a fixed one. Sometimes there is no chance to check zero. No scope is shockproof on a rifle. I'm more confident with a QD-rig. I usually had 2 zeroed scopes on my sniperrifle. I still do on my primary huntingrifle. That has saved a couple of huntingtrips for me. I guess this is just a case of different traditions.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 02:11:49 (ZULU) 

Scott, any word on the Carlos II tee shirts? Have several potential sells for you?

Marius, how about a chat room?

Rob, have a possible partner for Carlo II but I don't know what to tell him about the various types of competitions. He's and ex-marine sniper. Would it be possible to give a brief description? Also, should one not find a partner, what are the competitions for single entries?

Trigger50, do you have any printed information on Reverse Image?

All, a couple of months ago we had a discussion on what to pack for various length excursions in to Buggeymanville, ammo, clothes, food, stuff. Can't find it in the archives. Anyone remember when the discussion was?

All, trying to find competitive pricing on the higher quality mounts and bases. Does anyone no of a supplier that carries more that one style?

All for now, the Bolt

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 02:35:23 (ZULU) 

I've got some of the Butler Creek flip up scope covers on my hunting rifles. Work good except for 2 small problems I had to correct myself.

1)Even with a snug fit on scope, the caps tended to work their way loose and fall off. A little bead of silicone (RTV) cured that.

2)The flip up cover is attached via a metal pin, which also wanted to work it's way out, only to be lost forever. I just flared the ends of the pin with a hammer and anvil to prevent them from slipping out.

All the talk about ruck weights is makin my shoulders ache. Anyone hump a PRC-47 radio? Dang thing musta weighed 50 lbs. by itself. Thank god for foam padding and duct tape. I recall most of our rucks in the 60 to 70 lb. range, with the knuckledraggers carrying 80 lbs.+ . This was in the maggot Air Farce, as noted in above post ;-)

B Rodgers, I used to do a lot of commo tower work up to 200 ft. Got tired of climbing down and used rappel to do it faster. Now I occasionally get up to 40 ft, gettin old I guess.

Final thought for the week: Don't ever raise your hand to your children,,,,,,,,, it exposes your groin.

spectr17

spectr17 <spectr17@geocities.com>
Rod rage capital of U.S., Ca., USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 04:40:20 (ZULU) 

Another question: I have a scope mount on my M1A for the first time, and I want to Loctite the big knurled screw in place so that the battering from the rifle doesn't loosen it. Still, I'd rather not need a blowtorch and a laser to undo it someday. Anyone know which one of these fifty flavors of Loctite would be best to use? As always, any advice is appreciated.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 06:38:13 (ZULU) 

To All: IF anyone would like to see what the current record for 20 shots with OPEN SIGHTS from the prone UNSUPORTED at 1000 yards looks like, as well as the young LADY who shot it go here:
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/images/michel3.jpg
It was done with a 308

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 07:00:29 (ZULU) 

Can anyone tell me if above proj. is being used by U.S or other milforce as a standard loading?

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Oz - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 08:50:37 (ZULU) 

If you want some Varget Load Data, go to Sniper Country Main Page, click hot links, then handloading, then Hogdon, select varget, and there you are. Varget is very good. I used it for my sons AR15, and my M70 308 1000yd rifle.

Best of Luck,

Bill
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
OutBack, KY, USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 10:51:15 (ZULU) 

can you please contact me?

Bolt,
chat room? To replace the Roster? Nope.
In addition to the Roster? Nope.
Why not? Simple - a chat room you cannot archive like we can with the Roster, so we'll lose all this wealth of information being posted here.

Joe,
I'll do so.

Keep the info rolling gents, sorry for the Roster being so big, but I got tied down somewhat, and then came down with migraine again. You guys are worrying me too much :-)

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 12:50:43 (ZULU) 

Just a little note, I received my SC T-shirt and Hat today and both look great! Thanks Scott! For those of you who have ordered them, I'm sure you will like them, I know I do. For those of you who didn't order any, you better get your butt moving and talk to Scott!

Thanks again Scott
Mike D.
CT, USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 16:11:51 (ZULU) 

Trigger,
Welcome back!! I hope to test your theory on spin drift early tomorrow morning if the wind isn't blowing to bad, I have a 1in8 twist will it be worse of less??

Marius,
Hows the little one doing?? We need an up date once in awhile you know!!!(HA) Hope all is going well.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 16:33:55 (ZULU) 

QD rings work well as long as they do not have the see-through feature and are a low mount like any other good set up. Like all dismountable rings you have to test them out though to see where your zero goes upon reinstallation. The Europeans have long used single and double claw mounts as well as turret mounts. The early systems were not ideal in that they were very high on the older bolt action rifles. Some where so high that you were lucky to get your face on the stock at all. Leupold's newer QD looks like a fairly good one but I have not persoanlly played with it. Like everything else in this "industry" repeatability is the key. As long as it repeats well and locks down solidly, you can get by with it. But if you see a couple of minute shift upon re-installation, the thing is junk.

I am like Torf in that I have a spare scope in my gear. This is a throw over from my hunting days. Nothing pisses you off more than having a scope trashed by a mishap (or sat on by a horse) and having a hunt ruined. With the Mk4 type rings you can set up a second scope easily but you need a torque wrench in your kit for installation. This is not as quick as QD's but it sure is secure.
Scott <xring@voicent.com>
USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 18:25:45 (ZULU) 

On a new topic: I would like to get a feel for how many LE and active duty military snipers we have visiting the roster. You can reply here or email me directly at home. I am thinking of creating a new roster restricted to LE/Mil-spec types only. I plan on broaching the topic with the staff today. I do not know what this would take to set up but my idea would be to give those of you who do this for a living a place to discuss your trade in open terms with out worry of the wrong people getting ahold of the info. My idea would be to have it accessable only via passwords and it would not be archived. once it was cleared the info would be gone. It would be up to you to save what you wanted.

Now, as in all things on the web, I am sure a good hacker could get in and read what you discuss but that goes for your email and just about everything else done on a computer nowadays.

The current Roster would not change. It would still be available for open discussions and education. All this second one would do is allow those who seriously practice the art of the sniper for a living a place to hang with out worrying about being compromised.

Would those of you working as snipers be interested in something like this? please contact me if you would. If interest in high enough maybe I can talk Marius into putting in some overtime and setting something like this up. I'll even raise his pay.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 18:40:49 (ZULU) 

It also has info on how to keep a woman happy, solving arab/israeli conflicts, confirming the laws of physics and the tactical use of a voodoo stick. We've also included a very indepth section we call, "Fashion, its not just for Rangers anymore" where we describe fashion coordination in a tactical enviroment. Now you too can know the fashion secrets of Rangers, SEALs and our SF brothers from a Marine Grunts standpoint. Sample chapters are: (Shoes) "Pumps, are they really just for MOUT?", (Hair styling) "Are ears in this year", (Ghillie suits) "Colors, When to go earth tone." and for you long range shooters, "Spin drift, Does LSD really help?"

Email me for a more complete description. It'll be posted on the TRGT website (www.trgt.com)when its ready.

Price will be determined when the printer finishes buggering one of the partners. Hey, we're trying to keep the price down!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet,edu>
USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 18:55:49 (ZULU) 

Bone to pick! It appears that alot (you'll find out how many with your return emails) of the site visitors are LE/MIL. It also appears that these are the people that have most of the good poop. I realize that this is just in the thinking stage, but if the LE/MIL people had their own roster, would they take the time to come to this one? Would that leave us poor civilian souls typing at each other? How will you prove employment?

IMHO, if I wanted to transfer information of a sensitive nature, private roster or not, I would have to think twice thinking that there might be a buggyman looking in on me.

Crawling back to my hide waiting for a thrashing, Bolt
Bolt <mbolt34547@ao.com>
USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 22:16:17 (ZULU) 

Scott: Since I am a LE/MIL supporter, can I get on this new site too?? I believe it is a valid concern that with just LE/MIL people on the new sight, much of their knowledge and insight will be lost to us C-f**kin'-vilians. Or maybe we just do not have a need to know?

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
I didn't lose my shirt buying a shirt here in the Northcoast playground in , O-hi-er, USA - Saturday, March 13, 1999 at 22:45:04 (ZULU) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 00:03:47 (ZULU) 

I glanced at and didn't really didn't study reverse image zero. If you get a chance, would you email me or review this principle? Or someone point me to the archive date, and I'll go find it.

I'm glad you returned.

TorF:

What would be approx. barrell life for a 6.5/284 on an 8 twist stainless steel U.S. barrel. Also, ever heard of a 6.5/08 with the shoulder at 40 degrees. A 6.5/08 Ackley, if you will. A friend of mine has just has a reamer made for a 6.5/08 Ack. chamber. He thinks this will yield approx. 150 fps velocity increase over "regular" 6.5/08.
I'm tempted by a 6.5/284 or this other Ackley-type. Of course, I'd have to hock one of the kids.

Scott:

Thanks for the email back re: hat and shirt. The bucks are finally in the mail.

A SC hat and shirt with matching heels and handbag would be THE think to wear at the Bob Barr/Bill Campbell debate. And, of course, Barbara the Nailer in black fishnet hose sporting a fresh C0-2 cartridge.. Don't get me started....

Pat:

Went out to shoot. It rained again. If rain is needed, desparately, all I gotta do is plan a shoot. Works better 'n seeding clouds with Silver Iodide..

Also, got to handle (but not shoot) one of the L.O.D. rifles today. Magnificent. Wasn't scoped so we couldn't shoot it. Too bad.

Take care, All.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 02:34:01 (ZULU) 

My point is that even with a "private" section I do not think you would see any less activity here on this roster.

I would still like to look into providing a service to the fine people who put their hides on the line daily in the name of the public good. Giving them a clearing house for information exchange should not be looked upon as "excluding" the civilians. This roster has been very successful and I would simply like to provide a place for those folks in the trenches to get together and discuss pertinent data. My belief is that there are many that do not post on this roster because they wish to remain anonymous or do not want to say something out of turn. It is for these people I would like to provide this service. As they are not really participating now, I do not think there would be much of a shift here.

As far as access goes that can be worked out. There is already a very good email service along these lines and we would just have to follow that lead.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 02:39:20 (ZULU) 

Ah well. It was just an idea. I am not totally willing to lay it to rest, but for now it can lay low. I must admit to being a little disappointed though. I am surprised everyone would take this so negatively. If anything, I would have thought giving LE a place to quietly improve the knowledge and share their work day with their peers would have been seen as a good thing.

Later.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 03:42:14 (ZULU) 

Public enemy number one signing off for the evening.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 04:06:05 (ZULU) 

What of the sniper schools and other paramilitary training centres
available? (I expect incoming on this and am digging deep,glad
7.62 dont have DU)

I also understand the USMC has a scout/sniper site actively seeking
to extend its membership to that fraternity. I also believe there
is a US police sniper site.

In summation, dangerous (to good guys and civilians)information
of a high standard is available via the printed medium. Sites
already exist to service snipers of various persuasions. Quality
training is available to those that can pay (Paladin press has texts
on developing fake ID to evade crim record checks).

Sniper Country already is making available a US based traing program available to all and sundry.

Scott shoot me down (figaritively speaking preferrably)if I am wrong but this issue seems to coincide with an earlier comment by posters regarding how to snipe an aircraft. While attention to what is posted
is merited, a new restricted site seems like a knee-jerk reaction to
the situation.

If it works dont fix it.

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Oz - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 05:42:37 (ZULU) 

The newer Leupold QRW mount system does not stay tight and does not return to zero well in my expereince, MWG/Badger rings and a wrench are QD enough for me and solid.

Gooch, always have had flawless performance from Schmide & Bender, the last two Leupolds I bought got sent back with broken internals within 20 rounds though...

anyone have experience with the "special forces" internal frame packs in the US cav/ranger joe catalogs?

Bolt, Brownells lists MWG rings at $97.50 and tapered base at $74.25 Badger rings at $130.00 and tapered base at $122.67 dealer price.

and Pablito said: "let them eat steak"...:)
Rich <rich76@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 07:27:42 (ZULU) 

This is an outstanding site, and there's no reason to dwell on the wealth of information presented here. I believe Scott is correct when he says few, if any, will desert the Duty Roster should a separate dedicated Chat Room for duty-slotted LE/Military snipers be made available. Sharing information, advice, opinions and etc. (And asking for same!!) is part of the tradition of the shooting community. It just doesn't seem likely those folks would abandon this excellent forum.

It seems to me what was suggested was a secure site where professionals could discuss specific details of missions which would be too sensitive for a public forum. It makes sense! There is one other thing to consider. The precision shooters, hunters and plinkers like myself will never feel what it must be like to have had to fire "The Shot" while on duty. A dedicated Chat Room would allow for discussion and support among the pros in dealing with the emotional aspects of their job.

Just some thoughts from Soon-To-Have-CCW-Missouri.

Paul

Paul <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, Mo, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 07:58:45 (ZULU) 

As I think we all know, many people have come to mistrust any attempt to restrict the free flow of knowledge, and ALL knowledge is potentially dangerous and can be misused. The cult of need-to-know secrecy that sometimes surrounds things "official" has sometimes blanketed very bad things. It's the old foot-in-the-door fear, and it's very legitimate. Get rid of Hustler and The Anarchist's Cookbook today as a reasonable first step; get rid of The Bible and The Art of the Rifle tomorrow as the next resonable first step.

As a civilian (who has at other jobs had access to sensitive information on these matters) I just want to remind everyone that the very existence of this site in any form is highly offensive to many people who will try to assail it sooner or later.

My state requires I take a course before I'm allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Libertarians will argue this is presupposition of guilt. While I don't disagree, I must concede the realities of legal and ethical liability. Reputable private training centers such as Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and others do have various background requirements for attendance, as does Second Chance when selling armor. However, all will accept civilian requests with a clean record and a character letter. If it comes down to it again, perhaps this would be an option to look into.

Freedom isn't free, easy or safe, but it's the imperfect path we have chosen because it acknowledges our rights as individuals to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I have to acknowledge that some punk gangbanger could use an ill-gotten Glock on me tonight before I can respond with my own Glock. Whatever the outcome, it wouldn't change the fact that many more people use their Glocks legitimately. It wouldn't change their most basic right to arms and their use. Should Glocks, and the training to use them, be restricted to the Feds and military?

I'm glad to have free access to the vast knowledge and always entertaining opinions you all put into this forum. I would hate to see it lose it's civilian readers or get P.C.

Hang in there Scott : ) For what it's worth, even if I was somewhat offended at first by your idea, I really do understand. I didn't mean to sound preachy, I just want to emphasize why so many were angry, righteously or not. Wish we had a cure-all answer for you.

Geez, it's 1:00 a.m. and I'm still at work on a late shift. Did I make any sense at all?
Michael Novack <mnovack@amug.org>
Phoenix, AZ, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 08:13:08 (ZULU) 

I think barrellife will be 3-3500 rounds if you push a 140gr to 3000fps.

I don't think much of an improved 6.5-08. A regular 6.5-08 probably gives more in a "fast" barrel than the imp. in a "slow" barrel. I'd move up to the 6.5/284.

There is a factory 6.5-06 out there. It's called 6.5X65RWS. I dont have any experience with it but RWS cases usually are VERY tough and casevolume are probably little less than the 6.5-06. The 6.5X65 go straight into any 06 action without any modification.

In some european countries wildcats are forbidden. Casemarkings must be correct.

TorF <tor.fleime@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 13:46:09 (ZULU) 

IT's been a while since I've been able to post, spent a couple of months over in SWA spanking Saddam. Looks like I've missed a bunch of good discussions.

6.5x284 is an EXCELLENT long range cartridge, quick and FLAT. A guy I was squadded with at Perry last year was using one in the 1,000 yd stuff and I was quite impresses. He shot 11 X'es in a row and ended up with something like a 198-14. He hadn't been doing the long-range or highpower stuff long, but was a smallbore shooter.

Someone asked about the 175 Matchking in military ammo. Yes it is being used in the new M118 LR (or is it ER, I forget now) ammo. Aberdeen/Picatinny data has it with a little less than half of the average dispersal at 1,000
yards than the regular M118 Special Ball.

Scott: I kind of like the idea of a separate forum for the ones in the "field". Yes I'm mil. but not a sniper, so don't know if I'd be one of the welcome ones or not. (the AF doesn't have any "snipers" even in their security forces, but we do have some VERY good shooters who have other duties entailing tactical employment of weapons.) Anyway, as long as people can keep blaming their actions on outside sources, and are not held accountable themselves, the info availability vs. liability will remain a dillema.

Sarge: If you're out there, I'v'e got some info on the "F-class" for the Rocky Mountain P@lma matches. If you come out of your hole long enough to catch it I promise it wont be followed by a 2,000 lb Laser Guided Bomb.

Zoomin out. Think I'll get some practice in today.
IYAAYAS,
Tim
Tim Sarchett <tjsarchett@webtv.net>
BFC, NM, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 16:10:01 (ZULU) 

Bolt crawls back in the hole waiting for the Sniper Log Books

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 17:12:49 (ZULU) 

Thank you for your response re: 6.5 cartridges. I've a long action M70 that I would use for this or whatever. Some time in the future, however. It seems that quite a few in this part of the country are building rifles in 6.5mm..mostly 6.5/08 at this point. It seems to have started by raising some eyebrows, and now 6.5s are being used in the tactical matches that I've attended. My exposure to this is still very limited but, still, one can't help but notice.

Thanks, again, for your input.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 17:38:26 (ZULU) 

Well just wanted to let everyone that is interested, that there will be a 2nd Marine Division Sniper Comp. being held at Stone Bay in Camp Lejeune NC on March 22-26. There will be one 2 man sniper team from each Battalion there competing. If anyone is interested let me know and i'll get you more details.

Well off to train.

SHOOT HARD SHOOT FAST!

Sgt. G.
Sgt. G. <USMCSNIPE@worldnet.att.net>
CLNC, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 18:19:29 (ZULU) 

Anyone here shoot one of these? How'd you do it?

bogie <bogie@inlink.com>
USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 20:36:21 (ZULU) 

Sir, As long as the K-bars stay in the sheath I say things are as about as mellow as a evening in the NCO club at any major military base or your basic Cop bar.

Peace, Love, Groovy baby!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 20:59:16 (ZULU) 

The 6.5X65RWS is not identical to 6.5-06 but very similar.

6.5-06 is 6.5X63 in metric terms.

This could be misunderstood in my earlier post. Sorry about that.

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 21:20:24 (ZULU) 

I'm new here, so first a few responses, then introductions:

electrolyte thread: I chatted with several corpsmen, nurses, and nutritionists about the subject. The concensus was that Gatorade, etc., was fine before activity, and well after activity, but water is best during.... introducing electrolytes during activity confuses the body, which then tries to rid itself of excess, causing many problems, such as leading to heat exaustion and heat stroke.

Doc: I called Remington a week or so ago, looking for info on 700VS's, and they are still making them, but in batches. Next batch will run sometime in July.

darryl and Michael Novack: I think you both pegged it, IMHO...

Scott: I think you're doing a fine job. I understand your concern about relating tactical information to "deviants", a very valid point. However, I find that the "tactial mentality" of the military sniper versus the police sniper a very intriguing point to contemplate, and is my primary reason to be here.

Hi!
I'm a former Marine Grunt, now in the civilian world. I enlisted in the Reserves, so I could go to college and become an officer. After 1) being enlisted, and seeing officer-enlisted relations; 2) seeing what often happens to families of military personnel, and having a family; and 3) liking my major a LOT (geology, hence the nickname), it was best that I and the Corps part ways after one hitch.

One regret of mine in getting out was not continuing with my goal of attending sniper school. However, much of it I can still learn through places like here. As a civilian, hopefully I will never be in a situation where I must call upon my tactical knowledge. However, I must argue that it would be better to know how and never use it than to find myself in a predicament and be clueless.
I'll also admit I was hesitant about posting on this board when I first found it for several reasons, until I realized that it was mostly professionals instead of "wannabes" (that label is not directed at individuals with a sincere desire to learn about precision shooting under tactical settings, but at deviants and their ilk).

I suppose that's ample commentary for one post. Keep up the good work, gents, I'm looking forward to this board.
Rock <lnbright@juno.com>
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 21:20:39 (ZULU) 

100 yds 0.2", 400 yds 0.9", 600 yds 2.4", 800 yds 5.1", 100 yds 9.3"
Shooting with high gun elevation angle changes these measurements.

Yes when you sight in you compensate for this.

Coriolis effect depends where you are on earth. For an example 40 degrees north latitude (about where Whiterocks is) same gun and bullet at 1000 yards.

direction of fire
north change in impact 0 deflection to right 2.7
east 3.2 2.7
south 0 2.7
west -3.2 2.7

Good position, good sight picture, trigger squeeze, don't worry about it.

Next time why you shouldn't drink Gator Aid

Pat II
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 21:42:12 (ZULU) 

Should be like this,

Firing north, change in impact 0, deflection to right 2.7"
Firing east, change in impact 3.2", deflection 2.7"
Firing south, change in impact 0, deflection 2.7"
Firing west, change in impact 3.2", deflection 2.7"

If you have a 155mm drift and Coriols at 18000 meters is 600 meters and 70 meters.

What's the drift at WM Gooch?

Shoot straight (what ever that means)

PL
PL <nrdwr.plakin 2state.ut.us>
same place, USA - Sunday, March 14, 1999 at 22:10:06 (ZULU) 

Marius, Its no wonder you have a migraines all the time. Those three o'clock feeding can wreck havoc on you system. How about posting a photograph of Elmine?? C'mon, be the doathing, proud papa that you are!!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
South of Great Slave Lake but North of the Orinoco River in pre-spring, Ohio, USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 00:58:02 (ZULU) 

The USMC site is at http://www.marinescoutsniper.com

They even have a Restricted segment on their site.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Australia - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 00:58:06 (ZULU) 

Marius, Its no wonder you have a migraines all the time. Those three o'clock feeding can wreck havoc on you system. How about posting a photograph of Elmine?? C'mon, be the doathing, proud papa that you are!!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
South of Great Slave Lake but North of the Orinoco River in pre-spring, Ohio, USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 00:58:56 (ZULU) 

The L1A1 or FN FAL was my issue rifle for six years, I scored very

well on range shoots but I would never contemplate it as a serious

1000yd weapon. It gets out there but are you getting the right tool

for the job?

Either way have fun
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Australia - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 02:04:39 (ZULU) 

All suggestions are appreciated.

thanks

Andrew
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 02:16:22 (ZULU) 

Saw a commercial today for a story on CBS Evening News about Police Snipers, supposed to air tomorrow, March 15.
Matt <Matfie2@aol.com>
TX, USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 02:22:22 (ZULU) 

Mr. JR of Rapid City, what's the difference between the HS fixed
"Tactical" stock and the HS "Police Rifle" stock?

Thank you
Lou S
S. Fla., USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 03:41:06 (ZULU) 

For a huge selection of Scope mounts and mounting solutions check this out.

http://eaw.de

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 10:18:40 (ZULU) 

Great battle gun, poor 1,000 yard gun. Unless you already have a fridge full of these, the entry level cost on a good pre-ban will cost you more without scope, without mount, without rings, and without magazines than many a great bolt guns fully dressed. If what you really want is a true 1,000 yard rifle [competition, I assume?], email someone like Bill Wylde on this list. Bill has forgotten more about long range shooting than most of us will ever know.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 13:59:01 (ZULU) 

Does anyone know of a website with downloadable targets? Looking specifically for cartoon or B&W photo images of terrorist/criminal head areas I can paste to the cranial area of cardboard backing.

Jon A. Custis <custisja@navair.navy.mil>
Orlando, FL, USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 15:59:00 (ZULU) 

I was tired of the Handstop spigot which raised the rifle up another 2 Inches and gave me a stretch with my beanbag under the rear of the stock.

Does Mc Millan fill their stocks with the crap they sweep of the floor on Fridays ????

Talk about some kind of pink fiberglass snibbles and the other stuff had the weight and consistency of the foam my wife does flowerarrangements in.

Juck !

The actuall fiberglass shell was only about 1/16th thick and then my drill bit went clear to the hilt into the Pink Poof.

I routed the inside out to about 1,5 inches dia and opend two half inch holes toward the barrelchannel.I also ground some nice dings into the rear of the spigot to give the resin something to hold on to.
Using just a little fiberglass and resin I affixed the spigot were I wanted it and "glued" it in place. After hardening I filled the voids around in the stock through the barrel channel holes with glass fleece and resin. After that all set I filled the rest of the hole up to the spigot mouth from the fron end of the stock, done, rock solid and 2 Inches less of me to get shot at.

This stock is about 8 or 10 years old, I wonder if Mc Millan changed their recepie for the foam the put inside ? I understand that its the fiberglass shell that gives the strengh. I have worked in a boatshop in Fl during the wintertime and had my share of the Itchy´s

Anyone of you have other experiances ???

"Ende"

Hell, I should have taken the Latex surgical gloves of before typing this !

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 16:09:59 (ZULU) 

how about sticking your head onto the Xerox copier and printing your own ?? :-)

Torsten <ya know>
DE - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 16:15:03 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 17:28:16 (ZULU) 

I thank all of you for you comments. I also thank you for sending them direct instead of posting on the roster. With all of the misunderstanding this thing generated I am glad the roster was not dragged into yet another sling fest. I will try to get back to all of you who took the time to comment. We had a power outage last night and I lost about 15 letters I had in the reply que! Power went out for 11 hours. In a snow storm! Brrr. Anyway, if the mood hits, I will try to retype it all. Or I’ll just say here: Don’t sweat it. No harm done or insult taken.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 18:43:10 (ZULU) 

Torsten. I did something similar to you. Back before I bought a new Harris bipod I was using a Versa-pod which is based on the P-H. It works but it is kind of sloppy. Anyway, I installed the spigot on my 700P by drilling a hole and epoxying the spigot in place. I drilled down through the barrel channel and drove a cross pin into the spigot shaft so it could not turn or pull out. Once the epoxy set the thing was pretty much rock solid. I love the quick removal feature of these P-H type bipods but I will never much care for how loose they are. I really prefer the stiffer Harris but it is a pain to remove in a pinch.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 18:48:09 (ZULU) 

Simo Hayha. Finland. 1939 - 1940. A member of the 34th Infantry Regiment and a farmer by trade, Simo Hayha became a most feared sniper during the 1939-40 Winter invasion of Finland by the Soviet Union. Using nothing more than an iron sighted Mosin-Nagant Model 28, Simo is credited with killing 505 Russians during a nine month period - a feat still unmatched today by any sniper in any conflict. The impact of Simo and men like him forced the Soviets to pay dearly for their transgressions. While Finland lost the Winter war, it cost the Soviets 1,000,000 men killed out of the 1,500,000 man invading force*. The Finns lost a total of 25,000 men in that conflict. A testament to their bravery and determination in the face of amazing odds.
 

Suko Kolkka. Finland, 1939 - 1940. During a 105 days of combat Suka was credited with 400+ enemy kills as a sniper in the Winter War. He used an iron sighted Mosin-Nagant rifle. He often took the war to the rear of the Soviet lines, causing much fear and frustration as this area was supposedly safe. In addition to the kills he made as a sniper, Kolkka also was apparently quite fond of the submachine gun as he made an additional 200 kills with it during this same time frame. Hunted often by the Soviets, he outlasted them all, killing the sniper sent to hunt him at 600 yards with a single shot after a running duel of several days. Like Simo Hayha, Suko Kolkka exhibited the hard determination and skill that kept Finland a sovereign nation even after its inevitable defeat. At the end of the Winter war a Soviet General is said to have quipped, "We gained 22,000 square miles of territory. Just enough to bury our dead".*

*Information gleaned from Rifles of the White Death. Doug Bowser. Camellia City Military Publications.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 18:53:10 (ZULU) 

B. Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 21:16:08 (ZULU) 

I have done some grip and barrel clearence work on my REM LTR, which has a H.S. stock on it. The stock is filled with a light foam also. Mine had an extra layer of glass in the grip and no glass in the channel. It seems to me that all the support comes form the aluminum block. The foam and glass just gives you soom thing to hold on to.

CJ
CJ <t18man@gateway.net>
new castle, de, USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 21:30:36 (ZULU) 

www.wideners.com/target.jpg

it's not a head or face target but it's good for load testing, sighting in, etc.
If you find a place to download terrorist targets please let me know.
I have some nice ones I bought at a gunshow a few years ago. When I get myself a scanner I'll send them to you.
Kodiak
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Monday, March 15, 1999 at 22:38:49 (ZULU) 

I got a couple of McMillan M1A NM Heavy Fiberglass Stocks. Shell is about an eight of an inch thick. Filler is glass/resin in the forearm and some kind of chalky looking resin the buttstock. These stocks are about a year old. No problems so far. They work great with the M1A's. When I say Chalky, I don't mean it is soft or crumbly, just white like chalk. I may try to get a M40A1 from TBA, they use McMillan stock too.

Bill B
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Shelby County, KY, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 00:07:23 (ZULU) 

Lou S:

The Remington 700 tactical/LR stocks we offer, PST05F(long action) and PST03F (short action) differ in the barrel channel from the PSS which use a varmint barrel contour (most of the time, we do have straight 1.25" barrel contours for PSS). Me thinks the PSS are the PST 12 (Short action BDL) are the common PSS's seen 'round the block. But there are many more to choose from, DM's have been the rage as of late. But that would be the only difference if that is the stocks you are speaking of. Cosmetically identical are the 03F or 05F to the PSS. They just use a heavy barrel contour, usually 26" bbl also. Usually most of the Police barrels I make are the 24" vmt. contour. Hope I helped ya out.

TorF:

Gotta question for ya! I've got some Swede named Walther ordering a 9.3mm rifle barrel. This is all the info they are giving me from the front office. Now I gotta go and figure what bore and groove size this fella wants, I am thinking about going with a .354 bore, .366 groove. Now I've heard of .358 bore and many inbetweeners, but if you had any info or any idea of what round he is using I'd be much obliged. I figured a fellow scandinavian might have the inside scoop.
Checked the CIP book and went from there.

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 01:01:57 (ZULU) 

To Paul (lomske): German sniper interviews
The Austrian military publication Truppendeinst 1967 is the year that you seek. The snipers interviewed were Matthias Hetzner of Tyrol (345 certified hits), Sepp Allerberger of Salzburg (257 certified hits), and Helmut Wirnsberger of Styria (64 certified hits).
All three served on the eastern front.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 01:41:08 (ZULU) 

What has been the experience for those who have shoot with gloves during cold or winter seasons? What advice would you have for someone who will be shooting during these cold conditions? I have a pair of old Marine Corps black leather gloves with wool inserts, I am planning to shoot with these but I am wondering what others have shot with and if anyone has shoot with gloves in this combination that I have described above.

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, Ca, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 01:42:44 (ZULU) 

Thank you for responding to my post about Burris scopes.
Got some great inputs.

Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 02:39:33 (ZULU) 

I think what you have here may be a very good example of this theory. Have you had an opportunity to velocity test these rounds on a before and after basis?It would be interesting to know the results.

I just received Remington's new '99 catalogue the other day.All kinds of neat stuff regarding the new .300 Ultra Hype (oh sorry!) Ultra Magnum.

They have this neat little comparison how it is so much better than the time tested and true .300 Weatherby.However,aren't confident enough yet to drop the .300 Wea. completely from its line up.

The 700 VS is still going to be offered but only in a left hand version.Who's brain fart was this? Probably some bean counter who knows they're gonna get stuck with a bunch of dead stock if they don't do something to get rid of it fast.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 02:55:08 (ZULU) 

Just got one of the new Leupold 3.5x10 LR M1's w/Mil-Dot reticle. The M1 style knobs are not quite as crisp as my Mk4, but then the Mk4 is a few years old. Focus range seems to be wider. The knob is a nicer shape than on the Mk4, but turns well past the infinity and minumum settings marked on the knob. Identical in size to the Mk4, it just looks like a variable Mk4. It's now mounted and bore sighted on a Remington .308, hopefully I'll get to the range in the next couple of days to give it a real testing, so far, I like what I see. Don't
often need more than 10x, but I've wished for less with the Mk4 on the SSG PII on more than one occasion.

The Savage 110 Tactical project rifle is performing very well. It's a .308, in a Choate Ultimate stock, Sharpshooter trigger and Leupold 4.5x14 tactical w/Mil-Dots on Baer sloped bases. The factory trigger is marginal, I'd always suggest the Sharpshooter unit. Simple drop in fit, easy to adjust, excellent trigger. The factory stock is a doorstop, and should be removed instantly. The UARS stock was not available at the time I started. The Choate unit is quite serviceable, if a bit heavy. The bbl has been cut to 20 inches and the outstanding Gemtech TPR-S suppressor is mounted on a Bi-Lock muzzle break. Sound reduction is more than 26db, and it shoots better with the can than without. 4 inch groups at 600 yards are average, I somtimes get a 2 3/4 or 3 incher. One of the reasons for choosing the Savage was the 1 in 10 twist bbl, it will stabilize a 200 gr subsonic load. The Engle Ballistic Labs rounds hold 1/2 inch at 100, and require 15.25 minutes up from the base 175gr Fed Match zero. Bullet impact at 100 yards is louder than the shot, terminal
ballistics are much improved over a scoped MP5SD. An article is planned for the NTOA magazine.

Anyone out there using the Leica Vector 1500 DAES LASER binos? I had a pair for a T&E and was much impressed. Easily ranged a small plain wood gazebo from 1981 yards, and the inclination readout would be quite usefull for doping the .50 at extended ranges. What's the groups experiance under real field conditions?

BTW, I'd be happy to do a complete review of any of the above items, w/photos, etc., if the staff desires.

Dope it, Dial it, Dump it

Cory Trapp
SAS Products
Aliso Viejo, CA 92656
Class III
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 05:02:17 (ZULU) 

While it is the topic of conversation, What are opinions concerning the 700VS? Since I want a Remington 700 in .308, and I'm left-handed, it's about the only choice, so it's a rather moot question, actually. Of course, I suppose that I could get a custom-built rifle (such as Mike Lau's TBA M40A1), but that'd at triple the price: eventually I want go that route, but not at this point. I'm thinking of glassing one with a 40mm Leupold Vari-X III Long Range (3.5-10x).

Thoughts, gents?
Rock
TN, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 05:17:54 (ZULU) 

200 yards total deflection 0.3
400 yards total deflection 1.2
600 yards total deflection 3.2
800 yards total deflection 6.7
1000 yards total deflection 12.0

Got some info on the difference between a 18" and a 24' Remington PSS fired with Federal factory ammo over a Oehler 33P, same lot, same day within three minutes of each other. Will compare with B. Rogers.

At least CBS didn't butcher us.

Pat II
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 05:45:18 (ZULU) 

A. Rhoda <aguidor@yahoo.com>
N.O., LA, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 06:49:33 (ZULU) 

Purchased mine while stationed in Germany, with two 5rds mags, fixed 6x Khales. I need to pick up a bi-pod, any good choices?

Scott M Anderson <katnandy@earthlink.net>
Renton, WA, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 07:09:52 (ZULU) 

I'm leaning towards Bushnell Stalker at 10-30x50 or a Spacemaster in 15-45x50.

thanks
Andrew Bielech <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 12:04:06 (ZULU) 

no, the stuff I have in the stock is light pink, chalky, and can be carved with a fingernail ! No Aluminum other than the bedding pillars.

the barrel channel is not glassed and all surfaces had open pores prior to myself painting them with a du pont resin.

Also I have already filled about half a dozen of air bubbles that were just covered by the jellcoat. If you tap on the stock with just your fingernail you can sound out the air bubbles.

Must have been a Monday morning product, or Mauser did´nt want to pay for the good ones ?

"Ende"
Torsten <Lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 12:21:41 (ZULU) 

I tried the "Issue" gloves too, but they are bothersome and don't have enough dexterity either. I got some hunting gloves. They are a RealTree product, and are made from closed cell foam and nylon. Dexterity is great and they keep your hands warm. About $8 per pair. WalMart had these before hunting season. I used mine all winter here in KY. The palm area is not as durable as I would like. I used mine for cutting wood and had to get another pair for shooting. I can single load my M21 easily with these gloves.

Best regards,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Out Back , KY, USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 13:11:23 (ZULU) 

Anyway, to answer your question: The VS will shoot virtually identically to the PSS. Except for the stock contour they are one and the same. Of course with the left handed bolt, it is now a BETTER rifle... ;-)

Run out and buy it.

I would postulate that the reason Remington dropped the 26" .308 VS is because the word got out through this site and others that it was no different than the 26" .308 PSS. I can imaging that the result was more people buying the VS than the PSS for tactical shooting. The PSS has traditionally demanded a higher, although I feel unjustified, price and I would imagine that Remington did not want to lose that fiscal reality. I am guessing at this of course but it I were the marking king at Remington I would have done this too if money was the issue. They can hardly demand an extra $150 to $200 for a PSS if it is no more than a VS with a fatter (but equally priced) stock! Of course, their claim will be different and probably have to do with the new P DM. They would make the case I am sure that the V means Varmint and not many people hunt the little rodents with a .308 so why sell one? The decision could also have been political. God knows with the way the unwashed look at things today a heavy barreled .308 rifle could be looked askance as a, ick, ooh, how horrid, SNIPER rifle. We can not have that now can we? With the P DM being marketed to police, it is more acceptable to the general anti gun public.

All this is conjecture on my part of course! The truth? I just do not know. Could be that the general manager is a lefty and finally said it is about time us south paws got some respect! ;-)

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 13:22:22 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 13:40:21 (ZULU) 

Scott...
We have a lotta' "Varmints" in the North East that would be best dealt with, using the business end of a heavy Barreled .308 "varmint rifle"...

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 13:48:29 (ZULU) 

Got the shirts and hat...they are a hit!!

Guys, buy these things...not only are they really nice, but if Scott's wife is like mine, she will chew on him about all those shirts until they are gone:)

They really are nice...thanks for your effort Scott.

Old Dog
Bruce
USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 15:13:24 (ZULU) 

Darren,
I use the Ther-Max liner gloves to shoot with, they will keep your hands warm outside of the glove for a short period of time and you don't even know you have them on.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 15:18:58 (ZULU) 

beerogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 17:26:38 (ZULU) 

smarta_s
USA - Tuesday, March 16, 1999 at 18:00:35 (ZULU) 

Bruce I wonder about your results of cutting the bbls 6". Could the smaller groups be from a better crown? Or the increase in stiffness of the bbl? My 26" bbls all shoot well. I have not done velocity testing with the bold gun cut done but my 22" bbl M1A's all have about 150fps less velocity than my 26" bolt guns.

What ever happened to Trigger?

I have got to tell everyone about how Leupold treated "Old Dog". Mistake was made and he got 1" tube Tactical instead of 30mm model. Scope was installed and found to be defective. He called and tried to upgrade, no deal, he asked for them to install MilDot while they repaired the defect, sure but he would then have to pay shipping plus cost of Mildot. No shipping cost if he just had it repaired. I who has dealt with them many times all positive before called LE and complained. Bottom line they didn't care. I am very disapointed in them to say the least. Old'd turrtes wouldn't adjust out of box. Leupols said this is rare. Funny thing is that is the way my VarIX3 Tactical M3 was sold to me new three months ago. Not very rare to me. What has happened to Leupold?

Mike
Mike M <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, M