March 15, 2000 - March 24, 2000

Another word on slam fires/doubling. The primer and/or firing pin of the M1-A has often been implicated in the "slam fire" phenomenon. One of the articles posted in snipercountry with respect to slam fires involves the M-16, and the propensity, way back when, for this weapon to double, unexpectedly. The solution, according to the article, was to lighten the firing pin by making it out of titanium (I'm paraphrasing, because I read the article but don't recall the exact wording). In any event, the problem was solved in the M-16 by using the lighter weight titanium firing pin.
Such firing pins are not available with the M1-A, apparently. Ergo, I began looking for other options. The second most frequent problem which could be isolated, with respect to slam fires, was "high primers"; that is, primers not properly seated. This is almost an impossibilty with government match ammo (such as the M118 Lake City I was shooting at the time). To test for this, various sources suggested that rounds should be chambered (from magazine only) to determine the depth of primer indentation, prior to firing. Some dimpling of primers is normal, in certain firearms. It is even acceptable to have primers dimpled in military weapons. Military spec ammo and primers are loaded with greater tolerances than what a reloader would normally experience from primers supplied by CCI, Remington, et cetera. That is to say, military primers are more stable. This is due, in part, to the fact that full auto weapons (machine guns) are, in many cases, designed to fire from an open bolt system. In other words, some are designed to "slam fire" on purpose, in order to operate.
In any event, I just wanted to let anyone/everyone know that there "appears" to be a slam fire situation, which can occur, but which does not involve primers, poorly machined bolt groups, firing pins, or "forced chambers". Too little resistance in the trigger spring to cause the hammer to effectively engage the sear during the "cocking" phase of the cycle of operation can result in a "slam fire". I agree with Karl that unpracticed shooters can experience doubles without realizing they have been the cause. However, if any of you experience a "slam fire" in an M1-A and wonder what may be the cause, I suggest you check the trigger group, and particularly the tension against the sear, then have the parts replaced if the spring tension is too light.
Incidentally: It is dangerous to single feed (place a round in the chamber then let the bolt go home) any military style weapon (M-16, AR-15, M1-A, M1 Garand, and even the M1 Carbine, the Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30, and so forth). These weapons have "floating" firing pins, and the energy of collision from releasing a bolt against a chambered round can cause the weapon to fire unexpectedly. These weapons have been designed in such a way to reduce the energy of collision (when chambering a round) to rather exacting tolerances. Stripping a round from the magazine and feeding it into the chamber will not, in most cases, produce enough velocity to allow a floating firing pin to discharge a primer. On the other hand, allowing a bolt to fly home with full force, against an already chambered live round, can result in a detonation. Depending on where the muzzle is pointed at the time a round is so chambered can result in an accidental discharge which is headed for who knows where.

Over—

Keith
Keith Benoist <starlyte@frontier.net>
Durango, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 03:30:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.45.211.209) 

Keith- The M16/AR-15 slam fires were stopped by using harder primers not titanium firing pins (do you really think the Army is going to spend those bucks)After chambering rounds in an M16 look at the case the primer is imprinted from the firing pin. The problems were from less than spec primers ( I think this has been rehashed enough )

Never being a M1 owner (and I got rid of my M14 as quick as I could) I can't comment on the lightening pin method there.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 04:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.133.207) 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY , BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 12:55:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.178) 

It would seem a little "fire" in the discussion brings out the very best this forum has to offer....
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 13:19:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1) 

Pat T
Pat T <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 15:58:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244) 

Thanks,
Mitch
 

Mitch <Mitch_aylor@hill-rom.com>
IN, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 16:37:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.127.194) 

What is the consensus of opinion about glass versus mechanical reticules? Is one better than the other for the shock loads from a .50 BMG rifle? Is there a good reason to select the Premier Reticules version of the Leupold Mk IV M1 scope over the stock Leupold scope?

How do tactical shooters shoot at night? With a 10x42mm scope the relative brightness factor is only 16 which is pretty dim. Has anybody tried the (fiber optic?) illuminated mil-dot reticule?

Thanks,

Dave
David Lawson <lawsonda@compuserve.com>
Farmingdale, NY, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 17:28:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.112.58.14) 

That's a good point. However, I found this article when I was reading up on slam fires. I copied it to Duty Roster from Sniper Country's "Articles and Commentary" section. Seems there are differing opinions.

Slam Fire: a Parable...

by Walt Kuleck
 
 

During the development of the M16, field testing revealed an unexpected tendency to slam fire, that is, for the cartridge being chambered to discharge without the trigger having been pulled. Needless to say, this created much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the Technical Coordinating Committee.Since Secretary McNamara had been led to believe that the M16 was a fully developed weapon system, the fault had to lie with the ammunition.

Thus the Remington executive was brought forth and mightly chastised for the high crime and misdemeanor, "high primers." When the Remington
man revealed that examination of tens of thousands of cartridges revealed no high primers, and that were the fault to be with the primer height one would expect out-of-battery fires rather than slam fires, he was told, "never mind."

Then Springfield Armory did a kinetic analysis and Lo! The firing pin inertial energy was 10 inch pounds! And the specified "no fire" energy level for the primer was 6 inch pounds! And the multitude stood in wonder, wondering why the d*mn thing didn't slam fire every time!

But, the M16 was a fully developed weapon system, so the primer, it must be changed! Only after a yield analysis revealed a potential 90% scrap rate with the new spec, was that avenue abandoned.

And in the end, Colt lightened the firing pin, and all was well again. Until Ball Powder, but that is another story.

Oh, and in 1941 Springfield Armory lightened the M1 Rifle firing pin. That couldn't have been to reduce slam fires, could it?

Some folks never learn.

And that's the rest of the story.

--Walt Kuleck

PS: The story of the M16 firing pin, the .223's primer hardness, et.al., can be found in Stevens & Ezell's "The Black Rifle":

Slam Fire: the M16 Story

To get your very own lightweight M16-type firing pin for your AR-15, see: QMI Titanium AR-15 Firing Pin

--then go to:

AR-15 Parts & Accessories

As Clint says, "Fulton Armory sells & recommends the AR-15 QMI Titanium firing pin (real light, lower inertial energy, faster lock time, slices black
forest hand tossed bread, etc.)!"

For more information on Slam Fires, go to:
Keith Benoist <starlyte@frontier.net>
Durango, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, March 15, 2000 at 19:04:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.45.211.121) 

I appreciate this is likely way of tanget (and target) but I had some
time to write.
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 05:00:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.130.189) 

Isn't your C7 (M16A2) made by Demaico (spelling?), a Canadian Company, not Colt or FN as ours are here in the states. Maybe thats why you had problems:-)

And about the SS109, the general concensus is that your ammo is more accurate than US made 62 grain stuff. Most of the international combat shooters from here that shoot at CFSAC would rather have your ammo. I know, I was scambling for some 2 years ago when I last shot the service rifle class.

Out here.

Gooch
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 06:55:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.164) 

I will visit San Jose in about two weeks time, and I would like to visit some gun shops in the area. Does anyone know any good stores that would be worthwhile to visit. This time I will not buy any firearms, but a good scope or other good equipment would be a possibility. As I will travel to this area more often in the future, it is possible that I will then buy a 700 VS-LH in 308 if I can locate one.

So are there any good shops around San Hose or San Fransisco ?

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 13:54:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.16.98.41) 

Have always used RCBS, Lee, Lyman (gack!) and Hornady dies in the past. For my next set of .308 dies I am looking at some of the more premium manufacturers, such as Redding and CH. I was thinking about getting a set of the CH TiN plated dies, as they are supposed to be expecialy long-lived and of high quality. Other suggestions will be entertained as well.

Thanks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown , sc, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 16:25:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.213.119) 

If you've got time, maybe we could arrange to get some of the local Rosterfarians together at a range somewhere, and everyone can laugh at how bad my shooting technique (or lack thereof) is! :)

If you're here on April 2nd and have the day free, there's the monthly "Mudville" match in Sacramento as well.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San HOsay, CA, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 18:01:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.133.22.71) 

There is both an offical policy, and a courtesy issue, relating promoting business "Deals" and "for sale" stuff on the Roster.
Please keep this stuff off the Duty Roster... The Roster it's for discussion and general foolishness... not for hustling or get rich quick scams.
Please keep this stuff off the Roster.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 19:54:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.41) 

My die suggestion. If you're already set up to FL size a particular caliber, look into Wilson dies & a small arbor press to neck size & load at the range. Once set up, you can reload almost anywhere. What's another couple hundred bucks when we're gettin' rich quick?

I have a shortcut on my desktop to the DR, hadn't seen the new main page. Nice job, whoever.

There was a post a while back regarding palmtops as data books. We got a handful of palmtops at work. If you can keep batteries in the thing, and once there is more coverage, this would be a mother beautiful range, fx, or training tool. Once they're refined and take the VCR, PC, cel phone price spiral, that is. One could conceivably present a situation on the DR and get e-mailed with advice(ad nauseum, no 2 concurring) in minutes.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 20:40:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.111) 

What did the Canadian Govt dislike about the FNC? I picked one up some years ago but there is little info on them. That I can find anyway. I have the paratrooper model. Are m-16 mags compatible? The metal G.I. mags seem to work ok but I have some Orlite Israeli mags that needed slight modification. You mentioned the Canadian military
doesn't use Thermold mags anymore. How come?
Thanks
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 22:19:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.91) 

Thanks,
Brian
 
 

Brian Snider <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Thursday, March 16, 2000 at 23:53:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.36.35.69) 

The Thermold mags are crap!!!!! The lips break - the mag it self will disintergrate if dropped loaded. And in the Cold [Hmm Canadian climate] the mag cannot be used with any reliability for fear it will self destruct. The did several fixes [there is a year # near the lips] the later ones were quite a bit better. But when doing A-T-C (advance to contacts) it is a bit disconcerting when attempting to reload only to find out you crushed your mags a couple of bounds ago.
The first reciever explosions we had were blamed on troops use of non-issue mags (USGI) but That was a hard one for anyone to swallow and eventually it was found the intial batches were inproperly constructed. It could make a nice range mag [in the later models 93+],but why bother USGI are cheaper andmore durable
DON'T believe anyone selling Thermold mags as 'battle tested' cause they fail miserably.

The 9 gun why we put the ELCAN on it I'll never know [someone who doesn;t have an inclining of the 'Theory of MG Fire']

C-6 Excellent piece of Kit (as you Yanks have eventually come arounbd to seeing - why the M60 stayed so long can only be attributed to stupidity and ignorance- kinda like adopting the M14 over the FN - made in America so what if it's crap)

I probaly have pissed off just about everyone I can so Bye
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 00:12:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.143.105) 

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 02:27:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101) 

Near as I have been able to determine so far, the screw used in the M14 reciever is a 12-28, a
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 03:37:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.213.119) 

A La, The latest rhetoric from Reno, et al,

"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right." Thomas Paine, Common Sense, American Patriot. 1776.
Keith Benoist <starlyte@frontier.net>
Durango, Colorado, USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 03:39:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.174.108.106) 

As to Gunshops in the Bay Area. Large one in San Jose called Reeds. I know nothing about it. They like retail prices more than I do. I usually go to Traders Sprots in San Leandro when looking for deals. Give me a call when you get here and I will see what I can do if you want a new Leupold Scope from them. Use the Tactical Intervention number, but be warned I am going to bend your ear about the 338 Lapua. It's new to me and I am all ears.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 05:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.196) 

This rifle has already more than 3500 rounds through the barrel. It's been shot at Fort Bragg, Quantico, Coronado, Aberdeen PG, etc.

Today Bill Ritchie and I fired 30 rounds through it. It was my first time ever to shoot a .50 Cal. BMG. I'm pleased to report that I got a 2-inch group at 100yd, for a beginner, using 750gr HSM A-max match. The recoil is very mild; it felt less than that of a 12-ga shotgun. It didn't bother my shoulder at all (I fired 15 rounds). What bothered/hurt me was my cheek/jaw, I don't know why. Bill said it looks like I had my cheek in the wrong place and was not giving it a tight cheekweld through the first few rounds. If anyone out there knows why a .50 BMG "kicks" the cheek/jaw more than the shoulder, please stand and speak.

Triggerfifty (Dean), since you will be taking out the Windrunner later, I recommended to Bill to give you a brand new barrel, so that you can give it justice in evaluating it. He said he will.
 
 

marksman <marksman@iepsnet.com>
San Bernardino, CA, USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 06:03:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.76.184.40) 

I can't see a bullet caring much wether it twists this way or that as long as it isn't end over end. I don't check the roster much anymore so if you could send a quick mail my way I'd much appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield, Ca. , USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 09:49:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.0.158) 

First is that the (dreaded) spindrift goes in the direction of the twest, and we wouldn't want our lovely bullets going towards the left, now would we ;)

But the real reason, is that the barrels are threaded with a right hand thread, and each time a bullet hits the throat, it gets a right hand, or clock-wise "slam", and the counter force hits the barrel with a counter clock-wise slam, tending to continue to tighten it. If the bullet hit left-hand rifling, the counter forces would try to loosen. and unscrew the barrel.

There have been some pistols with left hand rifling, but they don't have screwed in barrels.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 12:14:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.121) 

very impressive ! AH 64, Chinook, Cougar, Tornado, F-16, Halo jumps, Fast Rope, M3 Amphibians, Leopard 2 A 5, Gepard, Marder, Fuchs, Ferries, Bridging equipment down to Outboarded Inflatables etc. Great Show.

Spoke to some Dutch Trooper about the DIEMACO and the plastic Magazines. He said they turned the Mag springs around and that helped the problem.

Played with a AN PV ???? Thermal Imaging scope. Outstanding ! Lots of new technology on display there.

Gave a Dutch SLA (Sniper) this site´s adress. let´s see if he shows and sounds off.

t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 16:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.157.36.164) 

Anybody got any recommendations for some quality case neck turning equipment? I'm looking for something as simple, effective and cheap as I can get...

Bullet Swaging

Does anybody out on the Roster swage their own bullets? Been looking for info on this kind of thing... Found a company called Corbin that sells all sorts of bullet swaging dies and components... anybody else know of other companies selling these dies? Does anyone out there know the economy of swaging your own bullets? Do you end up saving much per bullet or is it really only useful to get a better made bullet than as a penny saver?

Gotta say, this looks like really interesting stuff... another addiction to go with shootin, cleanin and loadin...

-JD
Jeremy Dombroski <R13@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 18:26:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.12.170.6) 

I recently asked the guys at Christensen Arms about the lifespan of their carbon barrels and I was basically told that they expect a longer barrel life than normal all steel barrels. According to them, this would be because it sheds heat faster than your normal barrel.

This sound right? Is heat dissipation a factor in barrel wear? Heck, what are the factors.... friction, corrosion, heat?

Custom Synthetic Stocks

Anyone know of a company or individual who makes customer specified synthetic stocks?

Cheap Loading Components

Just lost my job.. again.. so now more than ever cheap loading supplies are a must... :D I'd appreciate any e-mails anybody could send me with info on some good sources for the cheapest brass, powder, primers n bullets. Primarily looking for cheap .308 stuff, match brass, Varget powder, Fed 210 primers n Sierra bullets...

Thanks!

-JD
Jeremy Dombroski <R13@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 18:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.12.170.6)

JHall
JHall <jhall@family-net.net>
IL, USA - Friday, March 17, 2000 at 21:58:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.0.57.13)

Thanks,

Scott
Scojo <scojo@techie.com>
USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 01:16:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.34.244.46)

Best of luck to you gentlemen,

Ehud

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Ehud <private@priv.net>
USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 04:50:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.34.244.14)

JHall
JHall <jhall@family-net.net>
IL, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 05:03:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.89)

Thanks for the quick reply there.
I knew there was some kind of reason why left hand twists aren't incountered, just couldn't think of the reason why. After see how that concept has been used in so many other machines and pieces of equipment I can hardly believe I didn't see it.

By the way, how did the Brownells Teflon Molly work out? I learned one lesson from the stuff, prepare everything you plan on coating so that you can do it in one session and then recoat as soon as possible if needed. Those spray nozzles they use, combined with the can design, are lacking in a big way. I tryed doing a few other minor things like 3 days after my first coating session and the cans didn't have anything left in the way of pressure. I checked the nozzles and they would clog up but I was able to clean them so they would restore their spray patterns but the cans gave up the ghost on me. I'd clean the nozzles and try to spray and it would just sputter and spit. To use the rest of the contents I ended up putting a hole in the can and draining the rest into an airbrush all so I could finish three more magazines.

Did you get the pic I sent to you? Didn't mean to increase your download time for your mail, just thought I'd send you a pic of what I did. The finish appears to be mighty fine for the lower reciever and barrel and it contrasts a bit more when you put a light coat of oil on it.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield, Ca., USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 06:24:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.2.84)

Eric R. <Roody5150@aol.com>
Cabot, Pa, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 07:35:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.57)

Cole Cash, Who the hell is Cole Cash? Jeez, I take a day away from SC to chase a loooong legged birdie, and I miss a long shot at "Master Cole Cash" ;))

B. Douglas...

I did get your photo... nice job. Sorry to all you'z guys for being behind in my e-mail. I just got a new major graphic arts computer, and the hunnymoon is a bit rough. In that computer love/hate thing, I'm in MAJOR hate right now.

I haven't started the teflon thing yet (the computer!!)... you said the spray didn't take on some of your gun parts well... why??

On the twist thing... I got an e-mail from one of my Rostafarian friends, who had a .44 Mag revolver (a LOTTA' torgue) with a left hand twist, and a right hand barrel thread, and (you guessed it), the barrel kept unscrewing it self! (the gun was discontinued!).
I really shouldn't mention the name, but it was named after a very large snake from the Amazon river district! and had a grade "B" movie named after it ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 13:15:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.17)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 15:28:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Carbon fiber barrels:

I'm taking a good hard look into these puppies. Although they do dissipate heat throughout the barrel quicker than regular steel barrels, I am not sure that the throat erosion will be much different than that of a heavy barreled action. For one thing, it is still a steel barrel wrapped with carbon fiber. The machining process will induce more stress on the barrel, and since it is turned to such a small diameter, there will be, in my view, more of a chance that that bore will not be concentric with the outside diameter of the barrel, probably more bent barrels than not. I have made barrels for this process, for Magnum research, and until I believe that they have found convincing evidence that barrel life is extended, I would stick to 6mm and under barrels with this process.

Have ya heard anything on the 7mm Ultra Mag's yet?? Here is yet another attempt from the barrelmakers to make mo' money, in my opinion. You think yer STW's shot out fast!!!! We ran a couple test barrels for Remington Arms, so expect to hear some hubbub in about 8 months about this cartridge. Basically, if you go to your Cartridges of the World book, Vol. 8, it will be listed as the 7mm Dakota in the Proprietary Cartridges section. 7mm is too small of a hole to push that much powder thru, unless you are expecting short barrel life. I hear they will be trying the 6.5 Ultra and quite possibly (why??) the 257. Until we have a great advance in smokeless powder engineering, I'd hold off on the Ultra Mag's under 30 caliber, kids.

The life of a barrel will be the barrelmaker's wet dream for the next millenium until they come up with a barrel steel that won't erode under the high stress and tempsmokeless powder's endure them thru. Actually, I wish everyone would buy the 257 wby's and 6.5 mag's and the hot rod 7mm's, job security eh!!! But when one considers the barrel steel, for us it is 416R stainless, you look at tensile strength yes, but your steel has to give a little bit with such high pressures or it will explode at the breech!! I have seen articles on the "new wave" of NATO issued weapons, which is basically a 223 with a 20mm cannon strapped on top. The 20mm tube is made of titanium, and I give the barrelmaker many kudos for that job from hell. I never want to rifle such a metal, I've tried A2 and that brought me much misery.... But until, and we will, we have a steel or material that will hold up to the stresses that pulling a trigger can do, if it's carbon fiber wrapped or not, we will shooting the throats out into the next century.

my rant is over for now

JR <dink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 17:11:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.8.143)

I'm troubled by the symbolism... but we may be the winners in the end.

Lookie! Two serial numbers is no loss... no sane shooter would be caught with a gun that had removed serial numbers... it's instant felony death, and you never own a firearm again. So who does it hurt?
No body, but the sleez bag drug dealers. Two serial numbers aren't any loss.

Trigger locks... many companies have been shipping them for a while... so nothing new.

The ballistic "fingerprint" is silly tokenism...
Several companies are already supplying "fingerprinted" bullets... I believe Glock and one other... so big deal.

The national forensic association has been trying to develop a system for cataloging rifling since they discovered that rifling was unique.
There is nothing available, and they aren't even close. With real (hand) fingerprints, there are "flags" and "group" items in the swirls that will put a print into a category, so the search is limited to a much smaller group.
Though computers can do some of the rough matching in the future, it will still have to be finished by hand, as there are too many subtle variations.

But rifling has no such flags, or group "ID's", and because it changes, even with a dozen shots, there is no way a computer scanning program can match it, because it is different.
So this sounds great to the media, but it's also a real looser.

Dirty barrels, or barrel wear, or deliberate abrasion, changes the print... a crime bullet from dirty, leaded guy, will not make the match, when it is cleaned after the crime, and changing the barrel on autos, eliminates the issue on most handguns, and most rifles go through the target.

"Matching bullets" was a big deal in the past, but not a major item now, because the bad guys have left their .25 and .32 autos home and bought bigger guns, and the bullets from bigger guns get messed up pretty badly.
Ballistic matches are now just a piece of confirming evidence, and NOT the thing that gets the bad guy busted... and considering that the bad guys use stolen guns, and that there are 600,000,000 firearms in the country... this is another piece of Clinton crap that will make news for a week and then disappear.

Smart Weapons... forget about it! The computer industry has stated that we are at least 30 years away from such technology... the police (across the board) have stated that they have no interest in such weapons, and will not use them, in spite of the fact that 8 out of 10 police that are shot, are shot with their own guns. and of course there are still those 600,000,000 plus "stupid" firearms around!!

But look at the other side.

First - This "Gun control" crap has been one of Willie's major distractions he's drawn on, when he (or "Al Gore, the Bore") has been in trouble.

Second - There have been many very expensive law suits against the gun companies, costing them millions to defend. Think how much that would have added to the price of a new Smith & Wesson!

If all the companies sign on, the gun thing will be over (for awhile).
Willie will have "shot his wad" on the gun thing for this election period... the public has a very short memory, and by next year, this will be forgotten. But Al Gore's dirt will keep coming up.

Also, this issue will get the gun people off their collective ass' just like the '95 Crime bill did, and turned congress around.

So what will Gore run on? Trigger locks "for the kids"? Too late, it's over. They just lost one of their major issues... waisted for nothing, and this new Buddhist Temple thing is just going to get bigger, and bigger. And the NRA has gained over a million new members this last year :)

Remember what happened in '96!

Speakin' of which... 0ne of the biggest Albatrosses around our necks is our own Wayne LaPiere. Though he's right on the facts, his mouth needs a lock with no key. I've watched him embarrass us for more years than I care to count.

Sorry for the length, but sometimes a short term lose is a long term gain, and I think we have got one here.

'lito
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 17:23:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.68)

As for S&W, I can't really get too upset with them. Disappointed is the word. Ruger has been doing this kind of crap for years. Thus the old HK T-shirt emblazoned with a Ruger emblem, but with a chickens head, the slogan "in a world of compromise, some do!" under it. No, these new things S&W are doing won't "hurt" us, except politically. Seems I learned something from our good Dr. Keyes. If one accepts a premise and works on that premise (i.e., if you debate legislation on if it's better to kill children with knives or pistols, you're ADMITTING that it's all right to kill children!). If you debate what kind of gun laws are right, you're implicitly agreeing that the government has a RIGHT to regulate this aspect of your life. This also gives implicit approval to do whatever is necessary to enforce such things, mostly including a regulation of your personal life, and lack of privacy. See IRS. It wouldn't bother me too much, but I know that it's all going to be started again, with NEW and DIFFERENT legislation next year "for the children". BAH!

Sorry for the rant, started by accident.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 18:36:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.166)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 21:17:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 21:25:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)

I vote that Marius (or whoever) just nukes these flame-bait posts as soon as they see them. Although I was tempted to drop some verbal napalm before I caught myself.

Now to an on-topic post:

I just got one of the Undude's slings and thought I would let eveyone know about Mike's customer service. When I ordered the sling I sent Mike an email saying that I was giving in, I was sick and tired of hearing people say how great his slings were - even when I hadn't asked them in the first place! I phrased it in a humorous way and sent off the email, and soon got a reply from Mike saying that it had made his day and so he was going to send me one of his shooting support bags for free. Hey, that's pretty cool and by the way that bag works great.

My sling arrived a few weeks later. I had printed the instructions from Mike's website (a good idea since the sling didn't come with the instructions) but I was having a heck of a time trying to figure it out. How complicated could a %&$@ sling be? It got to the point where I was wondering if the Hoppes had finally killed off one too many brain cells and maybe needing to be spoon-fed was just one step away... when I finally came to the conclusion that Mike had shipped me a "Military Model One" sling instead of the "Military Model Two" that I had ordered, and that there was no way I would ever get this one to work on my TBA M40A1 with its fixed swivels.

Mike and I exchanged a few emails as I explained the problem, and when he realized his mistake he asked me for my address again so he could ship out a replacement ASAP. I sent that, and asked him whether I should keep the cuff I already had or should I ship it back when I returned the first sling to him. To my surprise, Mike told me to keep the sling and not send it back as it was his mistake! I basically asked him if he was nuts at this point, was he sure I couldn't send it back but he insisted and I wasn't about to argue this to the death. :)

In the end, I got the sling I ordered about a week after the first one showed up, and after paying for one sling and cuff I ended up holding two slings, one cuff and a support bag. Mike made a simple human mistake and promptly made up for it in spades. Will I be ordering from Mike again? Oh, you betcha. And I'll be showing off the slings to friends who will also be hearing about the great above-and-beyond customer service I got.

So here's my public thanks to the Undude for some very Un-typical customer service.

(And by the way the slings look great, I can't wait to try 'em out.)

Sorry for the wordy post!
Dave <dave@NotATwelveYearOldImm_OrtalSniper.com>
Nice day wish I was at the range in San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 21:41:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.152.47)

As for S&W, I can't really get too upset with them. Disappointed is the word. Ruger has been doing this kind of crap for years. Thus the old HK T-shirt emblazoned with a Ruger emblem, but with a chickens head, the slogan "in a world of compromise, some do!" under it. No, these new things S&W are doing won't "hurt" us, except politically. Seems I learned something from our good Dr. Keyes. If one accepts a premise and works on that premise (i.e., if you debate legislation on if it's better to kill children with knives or pistols, you're ADMITTING that it's all right to kill children!). If you debate what kind of gun laws are right, you're implicitly agreeing that the government has a RIGHT to regulate this aspect of your life. This also gives implicit approval to do whatever is necessary to enforce such things, mostly including a regulation of your personal life, and lack of privacy. See IRS. It wouldn't bother me too much, but I know that it's all going to be started again, with NEW and DIFFERENT legislation next year "for the children". BAH!

Sorry for the rant, started by accident.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, March 18, 2000 at 21:54:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.230)

Pete, did you ever submit the Carlos Match Article to Tactical Shooter Magazine. If not do so.
 

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 01:34:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.28)

OK - I had thought you were wondering why we didn't adopt it.
I would love a FNC for personal ownership. There are a couple kicking
around up here (Canada) but few want to part because they are now a
restricted/prohibited gun up here (had to be an owner of that class prior to 94 and no new guns can come in) I think the FNC is a good firearm, but it has several drawback for military operations - weight, reliability (when dirty) and cost, pretty much what I think of the H&K stuff too - I love it but not for combat. I'd love to sit
on the range and leisurely conduct my own tests of accuracy and mean time between failure, however that costs time and money - something I have little of these days!
(my recently EX wife is getting all of that)but I'm not whinning
Thanks
Kevin
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Bitter and Twisted in, Canada - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 01:57:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.136.162)

The magazines I did were a test of how well the spray will adhere to different surfaces, the magazines need to be bead blasted or sand blasted before applying the spray if you intend for it to pretty much stay on there permanently. The finish will slowly wear or chip away from repeated use. When I do another firearm someday I'll bead blast the whole lot and do it the right way now that I know. What I didn't know at the time was that a bead blasting gun only costs about 30 bucks at one of the Frieght stores around here, DOH, next time...

I did the scope mount and scope caps, both appear to have taken well to the spray. I also did the trigger, pivot/takedown pins, selector, and bolt catch, finish took well to those little parts.

Tryed doing the aluminum upper and the left side was significantly more smooth from forging than the ejection port side. I believe the finish will stick well to the ejection port side while the other side is eventually going to loose the finish. From the magazines and the upper I would be prepared to sand blast or bead blast aluminum parts since they are so hard and smooth, sanding with sand paper doesn't seem to pit the surface nearly enough.

I wish I had a Sendero or some other Remington so that I could try doing a barrel like that to test the finish.

I almost drifted the sights off the HK USP and did the slide in OD Green but I was hesitant to do it because I thought the finish might be too smooth to take a good finish. Not to mention I had problems with the can of spray having any staying power.

That being said the cans of teflon molly spray don't seem to last past the first day of use, something effects the can and it doesn't spray the same as when the can is new. I was able to unclog nozzles when they were spattering but that didn't seem to be the problem. I think the cans are cheap and they lose pressure after the first days use or something. At a certain point a clean nozzle wouldn't even matter, the cans just wouldn't spray for squat.

I might be leaving something out so I'll get back to you if I remember anything.

Well Walker Texas Ranger is on, gotta go.
He is the original Meaty Cheesy Boy!

More meat, more cheese. Meat cheese meat cheese.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield, Ca., USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 06:27:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.38)

I've enjoyed reading the roster for a while now, and have consumed all of the Hot Tips -great stuff. Thanks. The atmosphere reminds me of the old NRA Guntalk BBS...

Anyway, I'm looking for sugestions/experienced opinions. I have a new little project gun; 20" Savage 10fp in .308 and am just putting it together and wondering about a few things. #1 on the list is "has anyone had trouble with the OAL of 168gMK's?? I'm trying to check the length to the rifling (with a cut cases + bullets) and after getting mixed results found that the first three bullets out of the box were 1.204", 1.211" and 1.207". Is this strange? Seems strange to me when I'm hoping to measure the set-back from the rifling in thousandths...

Any general thoughts on vari-x ll v. lll's. I'm looking at 3-9x 40mm and 3.5-10 40mm. The price jump to mildots is part of the issue.

Thanks for letting me pick your brains.

Chris

Chris <cmw@tiac.net>
USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 15:27:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.32.79.119)

I am concidering refinishing my rifle with a stuff called
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 16:57:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.90)

I am concidering refinishing my rifle with a stuff called "Aluma-Hyde" from Brownells. My question is this, do I have to do any special preperation to the metal other than degreasing it to achieve a good finish? I plan to do the whole thing lock, stock, and barrel. I will probably do thee scope too with the scope covers on it. Any ideas or suggestions? I saw a post refering to sand blasting. Hmmmmm sounds complicated.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 16:58:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.77.71.90)

Yeah, I know what you mean... every time I see the S&W thing on the TV, I greach for the clicker... but I think we're gaining ground in an area we've never had before. Saw Wayne this morning on one of the Sunday news shows, and they actually treated him well, and though he didn't appoligize for what he said, he did get in a lot of good shots against the Klinton administration, and brought up the fact that the "H-Rap Brown" issue where a cop was killed, and another was wounded last week... well Wayne brought out the fact that the feds had "H-Rap" on a fed gun charge a few years ago, and gave him a pass, and the Feds now have that officers blood on their hands... the interviewer actually gave Wayne some respect, and when the Klinton spoksman came on after, she tore into him, and his "Spin"... he refused to answer any question directly, and would go to some symbolic issue, or mumble something about the aniversary of Columbine... she tore into him, and he ws lame.
This is the first time in 35 years of gun control, that I;ve heard a "lefty" news woman, listen to our side of the gun issue, and sock it to the anti's.

Who knows... maybe there is an Easter bunny!

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 18:25:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.41)

1. Send an email to majordomo@aspire.net with the following in the message body:

subscribe tactical-announce your-email-address

2. You'll get a confirmation request - just follow the directions and you're in!

3. After that - you'll get a welcome aboard message...
4. That list is setup so that subscriber's email addresses can't be fetched.
Enjoy!

Ken
Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 18:57:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.60)

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 19:07:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.60)

I work at John Norrell Arms, Inc.

To adhere to the metal, our product is best applied to a sand or bead blasted surface, which slightly roughens it. But it will also adhere without doing so. I did a Sig 550 for a collector who insisted that I do not follow my normal procedure of blasting, and the rifle turned out fine.

But for best adhesion, normally, with our product at least, it's best to blast the surface. There are exceptions.

This weekend, I did a predealer sample uzi smg with the baked on enamel finish. The dealer's personal gun was impeccable. He did not want me to remove the enamel, which would have taken a huge amount of time anyway. I sprayed over it, and it turned out fine.

So generally, you can get by without sandblasting, at least with our product. If anyone wants a brochure, we can email you one.

email request to smg1022@aol.com

We sell our moly resin to Camp Perry for m16 refnishing, to Knights' which has the Seal SOCOM project, to dealers around the country and individuals, and while I have only been doing this 2 1/2 years, I keep learning and improving.

Robert
tschiemer <smg1022@aol.com>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 19:40:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.164)

123
confederate123 <confederate123@yahoo.com>
Possumtown, Mississippi, USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 21:22:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.131.5.21)

Robert...

On finishing... The folks at Brownells said that they recomended sand blasting so their teflon would be "inside" the surface on the metal... like on slide rails, so even when it wore off the surface, there would still be a 60-70% teflon surface. They said that it could be applied to a smooth surface (like a standard finished rifle barrel) without blasting, and it would stick just fine. I'm going to do 3 Winchester M70/HBV stainless's and they have sand blasted barrels... so no question there...

But my major project is, I'm putting together an M24 on a stainless 40-XB/R, and the action is blasted, but the barrel is smooth... and I want to Teflon the whole thing, and sand blasting services around here are poor.
What are your thoughts... I'd hate to ruin it... waited 9 months for it.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, March 19, 2000 at 23:06:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.92)

The reason rifle barrels are usually right hand is that most of the barrels made in America are made on pratt & Whitney rifling machines these machines are geared for right hand.

Plus we are a right hand world, most of the population are right hand and we think in these terms.

Have you ever seen a machine Lathe with the chuck on the right side???

We think the way our fathers think especially when it comes to machines. The ones we are trained on work a cretin way, we get used to it and that is that.

As for the twist of the barrel, a Remingtom barrel is torqued on with 95-110 ft-lbs of torque. If you have ever taken a Rem barrel off a rifle you would know that the bullet will not loosen it.

Lastly think of this, the bullet in not moving very fast and doesn't have very much inertia in the first .030", the velocity is negligible, if it wasn't barrels would only be 3" long (barring legal issues)
Martin <badger@aol.com>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 02:12:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.38)

Thanks in advance for the comments.

BEAR
Bear <cw1890@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 04:16:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.10.139.244)

Ben Piper <http://www.benppr@aol.com>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 04:36:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.213)

P.S- the man does not pick the job the job picks the man.

Sincerly-
Beim
Mr. Beim <ambush03@hotmail.com>
phillipsburg, KS, USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 05:16:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.225.1.205)

Lito, I don't know what to suggest on that barrel you mentioned. Maybe if you took some lead foil(stuff on wine bottles) and wrapped the threaded end of the barrel and plugged the muzzle end of the barrel? Should protect enough for you do bead blast the surface of the barrel and not touch the delicate areas. What's strange about the teflon spray is it took perfectly to everything but only one area of the gun I did. I can clearly tell that the bead blasted barrel and the rough texture of the stainless lower will hold the finish longer.

I can tell you what I will do for future projects, I'm getting a dang blasting gun since I already have the compressor and hoses. Wish I had it for this job. When I get the sprayer lookout!

Go ahead, make my day, PUNK.

P.S, got some good shooting in today on the local squirrel town. Managed some very spectacular direct hits in their "crap factories". It was a real buzard buffet!

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Baketown, Ca, USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 06:56:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.224)

We never kept a round count on the rifles, they were checked once a year
with several special gauges of which one measeured the throat erosion and
another the muzzle dia.

others were for headspace, firing pin protrusion etc.

we would write one off if it went over the given specs and it was then send
through s 4 channels to get it repaired.

I have never seen one and the same come back to us. But we did always have
some open slots in the arms room with red tags on them showing that rifles
were in for repair.

In my unit we had two G 3 each, one was zeroed, cleaned and wrapped up in
a vacuum sealed bag for the day X, the other was our peacetime rifle.

The G- 3´s now still in service have the black plastic pistol grips and a
brass deflector behind the ejection port like a M 16.

I know that HK exchanges barrels with a hydraulik press.
and I have seen rifles with pretty new barrels in old 60´s receivers wich
were upgraded with the new pistol grips and tig welded deflectors.

They dont throw stuff out if it still works.

The worst guns around are always the set that is used for the basic training
companies. We have switched from a standard boot camp unit to the system of
basic training our conscripts in the unit they will be in for the entire 10
month of service. That way you can shape and bend them into the positions
needed and can sort out the knuckleheads right from the start.

But back to the initial question, I cant tell you, we shoot them till they
dont meet the spec anymore and they go in for refurbish. no round count
here.

However I am sure that there are detailed informations about that. I still
think we get more barrel wear from cleaning them than from shooting them !
: )

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
G3ermany - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 07:18:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.159.89.248)

-mike
Mike <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 16:22:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.206.93.3)

I shoot an HS Precision stainless Rem. 700 in .300 Win.Mag. (w/ a Burris Fullfield 6-18 scope - fine plex - soon to be a Burris 6-24 Black Diamond w/ mil dot)
Anyhow, I find that Hogdon's H4831SC Extreme is the most consistent -velocity wise - that I've ever tried, including 4895 IMR and ESPECIALLY VihtaVuori N560 which can very quickly get dangerous pressures (flat primers) approaching max loads. Only go up by 0.5 gr. at a time when using VV N560. I'm using Win. brass, Federal mag. primers, & Sierra 220 gr. Matchking, or Lapua 194.5 gr. Match bullets.
Sierra likes this Hogdon load w/ that 220 Matchking bullet. I like the bullet because 1. my barrel likes it and 2. it's great in cross winds, which I'm NOT great at doping. (Seems my Bushnell Yardage Pro 1000 just doesn't have a "windspeed" mode - Darn!)

Does anybody have a favorite .300 Win. Mag. load that they have had success with? I haven't tried Sierra 168 gr. Matchkings yet for some reason. I do have some and I know they will shoot flatter. Maybe...

Lastly, I'm thinking of purchasing NECO's "Quick Load" ballistics software ($150.00) because I can make my own trajectory/wind drift charts, etc., etc. As opposed to constantly buying updated reloading manuals and buying Ballisticard Systems' come up cards. NECO has good stuff. Ive used their barrel lapping kit ("fire lapping") on my Browning Stainless Stalker w/ BOSS System to good effect. Has anyone used the "Quick Load" software?

Eric Blumensaadt <ericblumensaadt@aol.com>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 17:43:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.27)

Quick question. I've seen alot of negative feed back on the M14 Mag conversion for Remingtion 700 rifles. Is there anyone out there who has had a positive experience or is it just a waste of time? Who would be a good gunsmith to do the job? The idea of using detachable mags with a great rifle like the '700 seems to make to much sense to abandon without further consideration.
 

Shane
Shane <ihuntdux@hotmail.com>
helena, MT, USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 18:01:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.178.216.239)

The M14 mag conversions are pretty "Cluggie". My 'smith does one of the better conversions in the country, and I've seen them in the factory stock, and also after market stocks... but the action has to be modified, and the mags have to be modified... so you can't pick up a few spares at the gun show.

Look into the H-S stock with their 10 shot mag... it's supposed to be very good.
If you're still hot for a M700/M14 rig, call Moe Defino at Master Competition Sports, in Danbury, CT - 203-775-6820... and they'll give you the info and price... tell Moe that Paul Coburn sent you.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 18:19:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)

Just read the info on moly on this site. Ithought the guy at Sinclair was a bit paranoid about moly when I ordered as box of Berger .30 cal. 210 gr. VLD bullets W/ moly coating. Then I talked to Neal Jones (maker of precision reloading dies, etc.-(814)-763-2769 )who is just down the road at Sagertown, PA & he said the same thing BUT he said he liked DANZAC because it didn't build up. No comment re. bore erosion, maybe he hasn't bore scoped hes rifle yet.
What the hell, I've got the Bergers and I'll shoot them but use a lot of JB Bore Paste when cleaning after every 30 rounds. If they do the trick I'll try 'em W/O the moly & see what happens.

Later, Eric B.
Eric Blumensaadt <ericblumensaadt@aol.com>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 19:02:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.54)

Time to build the ghillie. Taking a poll here. Coveralls, 2 piece BDU's or just a veil type deal? Will order stuff this weekend.

Last year posted about a young man in Fayettenam that built most excellent ghillie bases and full suits. Did anyone try him out?
 

*Reloading die stuff*

Time to buy the dies. Still leaning towards The Redding Deluxe 3 die set. Speak now, forever hold it. Ordering this weekend also.
 

*To bipod or not to bipod*

Getting down to serious practice starting next week. Do I continue to use the pods or practice without them?
 

*300 mag stuff*

Is there a reason that the Fed GM Match is based on the 190 grain? What problems would be faced using a 168 or 175?
 

The Bolt is back from self imposed "trigger lock" exile and now retreats to see if still has any buds left :)
 
 
 
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 22:34:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.43.95)

Targets UP !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, March 20, 2000 at 23:58:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.143.214)

Kris Solomon
Kris Solomon <solomons@mindspring.com>
GA, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 01:42:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.102.231)

I've rebarreled my .308 from a 1:12 twist to a 1:10 twist. I've been shooting 46 grs. of VarGet, 168 gr. Beger LTB bullets, and Fed 210M primers. This load shot outstanding in my last barrel with no signs of pressure. Will the new twist rate cause much of a pressure difference in my exisitng ammo.

Thanks
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 02:03:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.29)

Call me a believer!
 

I'd upload a scan of the target, but it's against the rules, so I'll e-mail the image on request. The URL below shows an image of the gun, and if I can set it up, I will upload an image of the target to a new page on my site soon.

Darin
SSgt Darin R. Pfaff <dpfaff@cfl.rr.com>
Patrick AFB, FL, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 02:05:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.95.232.246)

Martin:

A pratt and whitney rifling machine is not necessarily geared for right hand twists, it is in fact rather simple to change the hand. You need a left hand leader bar, and you flip the clock spring. That is all.

Mike M:

Is there a 338 lapua in the midst?? Do ya wanna push for 28" of barrel before the brake? Or is 29" all ya need? I'll get ya a good'n straight pipe anyway, I'll take good care of ya buddy!!

catch ya later

jr <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 02:12:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.8.143)

see this article posted on the www.law.com website:
">http://www.lawnewsnet.com/stories/A19040-2000Mar17.html/.
 
 
 

Utgardaloki <utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 03:16:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

href="http://www.lawnewsnet.com/stories/A19040-2000Mar17.html/
">http://www.lawnewsnet.com/stories/A19040-2000Mar17.html.
 

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 03:24:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Thanks

Brian Snider <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 04:37:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.36.35.69)

JR, You are right a 338 Lapua is in the works. Janet says you will have it made in three months. I sent you an email on this but I am looking for 28"s plus the brake for a total of 29.5" Do your usual great job and we need to hook up for beers one day.

Pete, did you submit that article to Tactical Shooter on the Hathcock Match? I never did anything because I thought you had it covered. Your article is great and funny go for it. Rod and Gooch really went all out to make it great, even if that SOB, but Great Guy, Rick was busting everyone.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 04:44:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.49)

George <GAP Rifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, Mo, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 05:55:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.24)

I was wondering are there other spotting scopes other than the Leupold you guys would recommend?

Simmons?
Nikon?
Don't want to spend 600+ for somethign not going on a gun.
 

Tom <tomjung@best.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 06:43:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.172.78.2)

The link should be working to the web site that has a couple pics of my gear. There should be pics of my refinished AR15 on there, both before and after pics. The gun I plan on using is on the bottom of the page, I'll probably remove the Surefire for the competition but leave the rest on the gun. I'll be rezeroing the Reflex sight and a detachable carry handle once I learn the ranges involved in the shoot.

Any help you have or opinions you can offer are welcome both here or by emailing me. No jokes about putting everything but the kitchen sink on them things though. Unless they make me I'm not taking off the Redi Mag. I can haul ass with the carbine the way it is, I just need to find out how I stack up in a organized shoot.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield , Ca, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 07:05:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.165)

Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
manhattan, ks, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 08:52:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.189.101.202)

Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
manhattan, ks, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 08:52:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.189.101.202)

Okay, so it looks like I am going to get to work with my 700PSS ("from Hell") at ranges of 500, 600 and 1000 yards over the next week or so. I am looking for known-good loads for 168 gr. and 175 gr. Matchkings, 168 gr. Combined Technologies and 165 gr. and 180 gr.Nosler Ballistic Tips, and 185 Berger VLDs too, if you have it. Lately I tried 43 gr. of Varget under 175 MKs and 165 BalTips at 100 and the rifle seemed to like those pretty good (3/4 MOA or a bit better) and I am already working with some of the old standards like IMR 4895 under the 168 MKs. Just looking for some other stuff to try. 43 gr. of Varget is a bit light under 175 MKs, right?
 

Thanks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 15:07:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.213.119)

Left hand twisted rifled barrels can come unscrewed. The Colt Anaconda, had a left hand twist, and right hand thread into the frame, and they came un screwed from shooting.

It is the same principal as tightening a hard screw with 100 ft pounds of force, then applying 10 ft pounds of opposite force, and tapping the screw with a hammer. Not all will come loose, but it will happen often enough to be a problem... and setting up that situation is bad engineering practice.

If you were an engineer, designing any heavy machinery, and laid out a stressed/impacted screw with a torque that was opposit the thread, you'd probably get your walking papers.

Can you have a left hand twist in a right hand threaded barrel... sure you can, and most won't come out... but some will, if the cartridge is large, and there's no point to do it, as there is no advantage to a left hand twist.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 16:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)

If you want... check the size of the dots (they are probably different that the B&L)... by matching dots on a target at 100yds, and then go from there.

'lito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 18:33:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)

Anyone else get their Leica LRFs from SWFA? Still haven't seen mine.

Also, does anyone have any opinions on the VFG cleaning gear (felt cylinders on a special tip) that Brownells has now, other than the fact that the cylinders are expensive? I've tried it out and am really happy with it so far, but I have some concerns about long-term use.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
Jeff's right, not a clous in the sky in SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 18:58:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.110.69)

VFG = Vereinigte Filz Werke which translates to United Felt Works is a German Company that makes all sorts of diffrent products out of a high quality felt.

Pete R might be using the VFG Air rifle cleaners which are a treated felt pellets that you just shoot through the barrel after each training session.

Most of the German Anschütz and Feinwerkbau rifles in Germany are cleaned with the VFG system and that for decades.

I have the system in use myself and like the fact that the felt pellets are pretty concentric and keep the rod centered in the bore unlike say the dewey system with the patches. the patches have more surface area, but dont suck up as much bore cleaner.

Also with the VFG tip you can screw the felt pellet on and increase its diameter to a real tight fit and scrub without loosing it like the regular patch.

What is Brownells charging for them ? just curious, I buy mine in big bags of a 1000 each, and since I shoot my rifle more than I clean it they last me for ever. 1 barrel = 1 bag

t
Torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
Germany - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 19:12:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.159.89.217)

Its all learning how to read the mildot reticle. Find out the subtensions on your reticle. If its a Leupold/Premier reticle scope your dots are .22 mils in diameter and 1 mil center to center with posts that are .5 mils wide.

Go to www.tacticalshooter.com and go to the featured articles for January and a stud warrior :-) that writes for them talks all about the mildot master and mildot reticles.

Gooch
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 19:26:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.140)

From Premier's web site...

"PREMIER RETICLES manufactures three different styles of mil-dot reticles. All three are wire reticles. They are not made on glass and will always have dots that are oval shaped. Although dot mass is 3/4 minute of angle, the dot is slightly longer and slightly narrower than 3/4 minute. One advantage of this oval shape is the dot is made to a length of 1/4 mil. A 3/4 minute round dot on glass would be .22 mil. In a tactical environment a wire mil-dot reticle will prevent retro-reflection caused by glass reticles."

MK-4 scopes from Leupold have round dots (on glass) and the dots are .22 mils in diameter...
MK-4 scopes from Premier have football dots (on wire) that are .25 mils long.

M3-LR scopes from either Leupold or Premier, have "football" dots (on wire) that are 1/4 mil long.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 20:12:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.68)

Bitte!
Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 20:20:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.110.69)

For those that do not want to see graphics, and have your browsers set to not display images automatically, you will have noticed that you see the main page as a funny place. Thanks to an email I have noticed that. And now I understand why some hate it :-(

I have temporarily changed the colours on the page so that everything is at least readable, but I am working on getting it to display properly.

Do yourself a favour, set your browser to download graphics, and then look at the main page. Then thank me and leave it like that! :-)

We will sort out the problem, but now I first need some beauty sleep - 00H20 now, and I get up at 05H30

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, March 21, 2000 at 22:16:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.198.14)

I'll bite... what's your magic powder for the 9mm... I've used AA7 with good results.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 01:35:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.101)

You're right the Premier reticle uses football dots are .25 mils tall and they are stamped wire vs etched glass. Round dots are .22 mils.

I am unworthy in your presence.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 03:01:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.168)

Tony Yackowski: - Tony - your email is no good...

----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mail2.siteamerica.com.:
>>> RCPT To:
<<< 553 sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed rcpthosts (#5.7.1)
550 ayackowski@preshing.com... User unknown
Reporting-MTA: dns; thyme.aspire.net
Arrival-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:58:56 -0500 (EST)
 

Whasup dude? Get hold of your Email administrator...

Ken :)
 
 

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 03:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.60)

"Anyone interested in the "magic powder" for a 5" 9mm luger with 115's?"

isn't Vihta Vuori 3 N 37, I'll eat my hattu.

The Finns know a thing or two about gunpowder, eh?
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
XX, MI, USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 04:27:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.114)

http://www.paradise-web.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=reloadersshack&id=6893.37523616618814#THREAD

You have to try this!!!
 

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 04:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.125)

al o.
AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
My Town, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 11:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.46)

I'm ex-mil, amateur, former designated shooter but not AMU or otherwise formally trained. Shot competitively through college (USMA 75, got sidetracked into pistols and skydiving!). Infantry and Cavalry assignments. Had Battalion's two (2!) M21 rifles w/ ART during Desert Storm, and got the bug again. Been a long time since.

Currently shoot .308 Savage 110 Tactical in Choate-Plaster stock, Tasco SS 10x42. Active shooter w/ local LE shooters near Augusta GA. Many from Savannah River Site SRT, other LLEA. Former Security Manager at commercial nuclear power plant; sent 5 precision shooters off for training.

Precision shooting for discipline, and fellowship w/ like-minded and interested folks. Will lurk and learn.

Thanks for a great site.
E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II <emdannemillerii@mindspring.com>
Evans, GA, USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 13:09:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.253.64)

You're correct, lotsa experience with VFG felts, they really wipe the crap out. Something really evil to watch is all that black green smegma just ooozing out of a shotgun, or rifle muzzle with a VFG.
The only problem is PRICE! Beeman AG lists the .177 pellets for over $5.50 per 100. so I use a 7/8" hole punch and old tee shirts for AG cleaning.
Brownells retail lists the VFG's in .30 cal/7.5mm @ $29.50 per 500 + $3.69 for the rod adapter. Not a bad price for the return in cleaning power.
 

You kids keep behaving, especially YOU 'Lito!.
 

Chao!

pete(the 12 penny Nailer)R <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 14:39:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.42)

I went for a quick scan through the main page, but I am all out of motion sickness bags,that I stole from Lufthansa, so I am glad to be back here again.

I really liked it a lot better the way it was!

I am bracing for impact, Scott lay it on !

t
t <t@lasercon.de>
germany - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 18:28:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.227)

You may remember a few months ago I asked some questions regarding the Steyr Prohunter. I got as far as ordering one. Literally on the day following my order I found myself on a range. One individual was cussing because his rifle would not group well nor maintain zero when fired from the prone supported position. It turns out that the rifle's forend is designed to have a forward contact point with the barrel -not necessarily a problem - but the Prohunter's stock is not sufficiently rigid for such a design. Thus, any variance in the pressure applied to the forend by hand, rest or bipod produces varying pressure on the barrel. The individual informed me that the first stock that came with his rifle had to be returned because it was bent. With problems continuing he had had a highly respected remember of the UK military sniper community inspect the rifle; this individual pronounced that the design was fundamentally flawed and could never be expected to shoot well.

I fairly well ran to a fax machine to cancel the order!

In its place I bought a Steyr SSG Police (not as much of a price leap in UK as in the US!) and I am extremely pleased with it!

So, to my latest question: High Mounts for the SSG?

I want to mount a 1-inch tubed scope; the scope's objective housing has an outside diameter of 67mm (It's a 50mm P/A). I cannot find a mount to fit the SSG that will do this! Frustrating!!

I've been told that Leupold do a mount capable of this; but their literature does not reflect this (and the UK gun trade seem unable to help-ignorance is bliss!)

Any suggestions please!

Many thanks
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 19:44:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.45) Hello, my name is Ned and sometimes I..... I..... sometimes I carry a 9mm. There, I got it out. Bravo, I have some 3 N 37 but have not actually used it for anything. My answer was based on the fact that it was all the rage with IPSC shooters, especially the Euro guys, for making 9mm loads that made "major". Personally I hate reloading 9's, with the tapered case and so much variation in the dozens of different kinds of cases. Surplus 9 is usually so reasonable as to make relaoding 9's unappealing to me. For other than practice and IDPA matches and the like, factory HPs. I will say that the only time I go 9 is when a 1911 won't fit. Here I have a Kahr K9 and an MK9, both customized. Took my Browning to Venezuela for a carry gun there because I thought at the time that a .45 was prohibited (not so).
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
Ninesville, MI, USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 20:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.145.88)

I have a friend who has a Winchester 70 in .300 mag. It is a one holer at 100yd with Hornady 180 gr sp "custom" ammo, but opens to 4" at 200 and 6" at 300. Ideas?

Ben
BW <Shotcrete@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, March 22, 2000 at 22:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.3)

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, the Cofederate flagged capitol city of, South Carolina, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 00:25:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Brass; I need some new brass for my .30-338. I will probably end up just reforming it from either .338 or .300 win mag stuff, but I'd like some opinions on brands. This IS for long range shooting, not just screwin around so I want some stuff that will be pretty workable for match loads. And who's a good source of supply to get them from? I know some of the usuals (OK Weber, Champ Choice, Wideners, LSB) so I'm just wondering if anyone has a line on any other good sources.

Thanks,
Caison
Caison <tjsarchett@webtv.net>
Middle o' nowhere, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 00:34:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.200.76)

They also have other refurbished/demo/etc. optics, like this critter: "Tasco 8-40x56 Custom Shop Mil-Dot reticle, matte finish, 30mm tube, side focus parallax, new in box close-out discontinued by tasco..." (Usual disclaimer, I have no connection to SWFA except as a customer blah blah...)

And as long as I'm doing links, a couple of folks contacted me offline about Metcalf range here in San Jose. Details and directions can be found at http://parkhere.org/prkpages/field.htm

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 00:46:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.110.67)

I have examined a couple of the newer Steyr bolt guns including the ProHunter and noted that they seem to have rather flimsey forends. However, the ones I have seen didnt seem to be bedded with a pressure point but rather seemed to be free-floated. The forend could easily be pressed in with the hand to make contact with the barrel so I imagine that one could not use a shooting sling with it without causing POI problems. My thought was that one could relieve the barrel channel a bit and perhaps add some glas bedding compound near the breech end to stiffen things up a bit. I dont know how well these rifles would respond to this but I suspect pretty well. After my experiences with Remington of late, my next purchase in a bolt gun may well one of the Steyr short tactical guns. Perhaps I will have the pleasure (cough) of having to straighten that one out, too.

As for the SSG, we used to see these (and the older Cycolac-stocked Professionals) come into the store I worked in entirely too frequently with cracked stocks, shatered magazines and broken trigger guards. Now, I dont know if they have updated the plastics used in the SSG line since I last worked on them (about 1990 or so) but they didnt leave all that good an impression on me at the time. Perhaps part of the problem was that the rather wealthy land owners who bought these things tended to treat them as if they were low-rent truck guns, so they saw fairly hard use. Another may be that tmave tures in early deer season here can run well over 100 degrees F (with pickup truck cabs probably pushing 140) so they may have been shot when the stock materials were at their weakest. Dunnow. I certainly wish you the best with yours however. If it makes you feel any better, the best goups I have yet shot with a rifle at 100 yards was 3/8". This was acomplished with a friends SSG PII with a Zeiss 2.5x10 and Federal Match ammo. It shot great and was *easy* to shoot great with.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, the Cofederate flagged capitol city of, South Carolina, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 00:47:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

MIKE DID YOU GET MY PHONE CALL?
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR <PETEC690@HOTMAIL.COM>
C.C., TX, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 02:10:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.175.86)

Ned: three voices: "HELLO NED". I might be out of touch on this one (it's been a while since I shot IPSC) but I think that "major nine" is "outlawed". I know it was years ago. Supposedly a "safety" deal, although, don't go and read what Georg Luger clocked his at (with that blankety blank sand box!) way back then :-) Besides, 3N37 will hit the power floor with room to spare, but you use less of it than the HS-6, and it meters like a dream. As for brass, if you segregate your different manufacturers (I'm not anal enough to say batches) there is no problem. Just look out, some have WAY more capacity than others! As for tapered cases though, they go through my press as easy as the 45's, 357's, 44's, and 40's do.

Frank: my duplex load has 0.5 grains of lead styphenate below the main charge. I call it a primer. I get 50 bangs for the buck, instead of one for $20. And I don't smoke afterwords. Gotcha!!

Don't worry, I know it isn't "9 mil country", I'm shutting up!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 02:42:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.160)

Thanks fellas
Brian <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 05:51:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.36.35.69)

have you considered putting a 20 MOA canted picatinny rail on that slotted
receiver and work with the Leupold Mk 3 Steel rings ? EAW made some for my buddies that have the SAKO TRG and they could whip one out for yours SSG/Police as well.

That should give you enough clearance for your "Observatory" and will also
give you more clicks elevation. Plus you can then adapt everything else out
there to the picatinny rail.

t
Torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 06:57:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.159.89.219)

This will be my last post on this subject but I must tell you two to look at it this way. Rifle Barrels are typicly torqued to the reciever at 80-110 Foot Pounds by the manufacture. Most of them using a loctite type of adhesive on top of that. If a bullet caused enough tourque to untwist a barrel, The rifle would litterally be ripped from your hands as you shot it. Lito, the Colt revolver you speak of most likly was not torqued to spec by the factory. Lots of pistols are left hand twist and if unscrewing while firing was a problem I think I would see alot more revolvers in my shop with loose barrels.
This is not the case, and I work in the largest Machine/Gunsmith shop in Kansas City. I still believe that the only reason you dont see left hand twist barrels more often is the fact previously stated. "we are a right hand society".
George <GAP Rifle@aol.com >
Kansas City, MO, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 07:59:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.78)

I am still lurking... been a little busy on a new website though. For those of you interested in the M1 Garand, there is a new web resource out there now... It is mainly geared toward newbies and CMP rifles.

Have a look if you are interested.

The M1 Garand: An American Companion In Three Wars is the site name.

Enjoy, and i am very open to criticism and suggestions for improvement.

Charles aka JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 09:45:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 12:40:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.146)

Just a bit of correction to a posting below. The 300 Magnum BDC is not for the 190 gr. Bullet. It is for the 220 gr. Sierra MK at 2650 fps, kinda weak speed huh?

This is quoted from the Leupold Website.

"Compensating for bullet drop is only possible for certain calibers, with specific bullet weights and muzzle velocities:
.308 M 168gr. at 2,600 ft./sec.
.300 Winchester Magnum 220gr. at 2,650 ft./sec.
.30-06 Springfield 180gr. at 2,700 ft./sec.
5.56mm (.223 Rem.) 55gr. at 3,200 ft./sec.

(NOTE: The Mark 4 M3-10x40mm is gauged in yards except for the.300 Winchester Magnum, which is gauged in meters. The Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M3 is gauged in meters for the.308 and the .300 Winchester Magnum, and in yards for the .30-06 and the .223 Rem.)"

Additionally, in the never ending search for accuracy in words. The BDC is not a "Cam" as is referred to every now and then. The only sniper optics used in the US that have an actual cam are the Art series scopes. These have a ballistic cam that actually moves the scope tube up and down by the cam shaped ring that rides on a button on the base. As the range is dialed into the cam ring, the scope tube rises or lowers.

BDCs are not Cams. They are two distinctive fire control methods for the optical sights. Just my 2 cents worth. Take care all.
 

Trigger50 <Triggerfifty@home.com>
USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 12:55:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.17.48.4)

Months ago I located a ballistics program that was totally amazing to me. It is called BalTraj. All it is, is a Microsoft Access database program (MDB file extention) that contained tons of bullet information and such. Does anyone know of this file? How about the site it came from? Know anyone who does/would know about this?

Thanks for all your help...
 

Rick

PS What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Savage 110FP in .308? Also, what exactly is 1 MOA @ 100 yards (or meters)

Thanks again.
Richard Ryerson <ryerson@truseal.com>
Akron, OH, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 16:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.124.49.65)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 17:37:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.97)

9mm handguns, Macintoshes, Savage rifles and Springfield scopes? What the hell is the world coming to? Bill, forget the rum, after the "9mil is king" comment I opened up the tequila....

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 17:57:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.110.67)

Dean you are completely correct about the dials just being dial not ballistic cams. I agree that the 2650fps is slow for the 220's out of a well made rifle, but a stock 300Win Remington PSS has trouble getting to 2650fps. The chanber is so large that after you expand the brass, a load that will push the 220's 2800plus in one of your or my rifles will only go 2650fps.

On another subject, if you have an interest in 50's by Dean's book. It is well done. Palladin Press is the publisher and Amazon has it cheap. The book is roughly 600 pages and will save you money if you plan on buing a 50. Dean did the research you would of had to pay for on your own.

Look's like I will be doing some testing on all three Barrett 50's. The model 95 wuill be in the new military format. Now if anyone has any favorite 50 cal ammo they want me to run through them, let me know.

Scope testing is just about done and I have mountains of notes.

A 338 Project is in the works, the rifle should be here from H.S. in about two more months.

Very exciting times we live in.

Oh, 9mm is no damm good! I have seen too many bad guys take multiple rounds and just say "Please dont shoot me anymore, I'm sorry" Give me the 45acp anyday I dont have a real gun,a rifle.

Undude/Mike
Mike MIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 18:42:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.187)

Mark Starr.
mark starr <masn@webtv.net>
wright, wyoming, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 18:46:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.200.40)

Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
XX, MI, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 19:04:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.142.188)

Enjoyed your summation of gain/ungain rifling. Question. Does firing in a southerly direction from the northern hemisphere, or firing north from the southern hemisphere create more pronounced drag and greater down range trajectory since the Earth's diameter increases as one approaches the Equator?
Doctor Science was unable to answer this one.

Thanks, in advance.

Keith
Keith Benoist <starlyte@frontier.net>
Durango, Colorado, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 20:40:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.174.108.118)

Thanks for all your help!
Brian <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 20:49:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.36.35.69)

Rick
Rick Ryerson <ryerson@truseal.com>
Akron, OH, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 21:06:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.124.49.65)

Thanks
Grizzley Hunter <BadAssMstg@hotmail.com>
Detroit, Michigan, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 22:33:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.116.19)

Hey guys I am thinking of adding a Choate stock to my Savage(dont laugh) 110FP .308 Has anyone got a handle of the prices of these puppies and should I bed it myself or have it done by a pro?
Owen Foster <Sigma532@yahoo.com>
SomewhereIn, Texas, USA - Thursday, March 23, 2000 at 22:47:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.16.165.25)

Honest guys, didn't mean to piss anyone off about the trigger lock deal. Have learned to keep opinions to self and dig deaper before they are formed. I always learn lessons the hard way!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 00:02:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.186.234)

After surrendering their firearms, Austrailians are faced with an increase on a national scale of the following crimes - homicides 3.2%, Assaults up 8.6%, Armed roberies up 44%, and in the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300%
Steve <reptech@televar.com>
Republic, WA, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 00:50:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.247)

Spin drift and all that makes for good conversation at the round table whilst copious amounts of grog are consumed. Adds to the effects of the booze and increases the severity of the hang over.

Gooch
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 02:03:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.181)

Oh, Someone please, please ask me to explain why this is a good idea.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 02:11:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.24.236)

When I said, a few days ago, that the S&W deal wasn't anything to worry about, I had just heard the surface "glossy" stuff.
But I had a chance to read the whole thing today, and They sold us all out, big time.

So I retract what I said, and no S&W's for me anymore, unless they do a turn around!!

It would appear that others are saying the same thing... many dealers are canceling orders for S&W's all over the country...

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 02:18:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.134)

What lessons have you learned? Could they be:

(1) Make sure my opinions conform to the other visitors of this forum before I post.

(2) If I happen to piss someone off, I have to repeatedly say that I'm sorry, eventhough the topic of discussion has been over for 2 weeks.

(3) I must learn from my foolish out burst and never have a mind of my own.

(4) When all else fails, make sure I don't forget about lesson # 1.

C'mon. Were all supposed to be full grown adults here. It's OK if you have a different view from somebody else! I'd rather hear opposing views discussed in a rational manner, than to listen to 200 posts all agreeing to the same opinion.

If someone doesn't agree with what you've said, that's fine. As long as the debate doesn't get personal and degrading, it's ok to discuss these things.

It would be a cold day in Hell before I came on this forum to simply become someone's "Yes Man".

In the end, as long as we all respect eachother's views, we should all be heard. Irregardless if others agree with you or not.
 

What's with all this stuff about 9mm vs. .45 ACP again. For the last time, doesn't EVERYONE know that the best handgun/subgun/combat rifle cartridge is the .22 LR? (I can imagine we can all have fun debating this one!)
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 02:28:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.89.10)

Gooch, definition of "spind rift", 'the difference of opinion caused when husband asks wifey if he can spind some money to buy another gun' often results in silent treatment, removal of favors or large knot on head.

Ned, have a rifle with a barrel identical to the multi-directional twist you described. Has made by "Bacardi" stamped right on the barrel.

Am presently working on a multidirectional pivoting bipod, legs stay in place, barrel points where you want to without the problem of the legs catching in the carpet and screwing up my dry firing practice.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 02:29:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.186.234)

http://w3.nai.net/~redhat/weapon.html
http://w3.nai.net/~redhat/m82a1a.html
CCaspers <Deltavkps@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 02:33:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.48.19.47)

It's 1875, the era of gunslingers. This is the true story of a young man
who wanted more than anything to be the fastest and most respected
gunslinger in the west. The place was Tombstone, Arizona, the Boot Hill
Saloon.

The young man walked into the saloon and, to his surprise, saw Doc
Holliday sitting at a table playing poker.

The young man walked up to Doc and said, "Doctor Holliday, I would like
to be a gunfighter just like you. Could you give me some tips?"

Holliday put his cards down, looked up at the boy and said, "Son, I
don't usually give out tips like this cause it could someday be
detrimental to my health but, for you I'll make an exception. Step back
and let me take a look at you."

The boy stepped back. Holliday looked him over and said, "Son, you look
good. You're wearing black, you've got two pearl handled guns with waxed
holsters, and you look like a gunfighter. But what's more important son,
can you shoot?"

The young man, happy to show how good he was, quickly drew his pistol
from his right holster and, without aiming, shot the cuff link off of
the piano player's right sleeve.

Holliday said, "That's good shooting son, but can you shoot with your
left hand?"

Before Doc could even finish, the boy had already drawn the pistol from
his left holster and shot the cuff link off of the piano player's left
shirt sleeve. The young man proudly blew the smoke away from his six
shooter and holstered his gun.

"How was that?" the boy asked.

Holliday smiled, looked up at the boy and said, "That was pretty good
shooting son. I couldn't do much better than that myself, but I do have
one good tip for you."

"What's that?" the boy asked.

"Well," Holliday replied, "I suggest that you go to the kitchen and ask
the cook for a large can of lard. Then take both of your guns and stick
them down deep in the lard."

Puzzled the young gunslinger asked why he should do that.

Doc put his cards down for the second time, leaned back in his chair and
said, "Well son, when Wyatt Earp gets done playing the piano over there,
he's going to take those two guns of yours and stick them right up your
ASS!"
 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 03:22:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.61.62)

Trivial Point to Note (Which Matt in Uk probably can confirm)
Artillery Pieces that are constructed for Southern Hermishpere's are rifled opposite to Northern in order to compensate for Rotation of the Earth etc. (Or my IG was just screwing with my head - but it was a class lecture) My brain is still fumbling on this one [and the course was years (before I went Infantry) AGO]
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 03:26:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.136.18)

“THE PITCH”

Lance Corporal Jones was assigned to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego, where his job was to advise new recruits about their government benefits, especially their GI insurance.

It wasn't long before Lt. Smith noticed that Lance Corporal Jones had almost a 100% record for insurance sales, which had never happened before in the record of the Depot.

Rather than ask about this, the Lt stood in the back of the room and listened to Jones's sales pitch.

Jones explained the basics of the GI Insurance to the new Marine recruits, and then said,
“If you have GI Insurance and go into battle and are killed, the government has to pay $200,000 to your beneficiaries. “

After a brief pause he added,
“However, if you don't have GI insurance, and you go into battle and get killed, the government only has to pay a maximum of $6000."

“Now,” he concluded, “which Marines do you think they are going to send onto the beach first?”

CCaspers <Deltavkps@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 03:47:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.48.19.47)

Good point you made about the .22 pistol - after all - the bad guys can't wrap kevlar around their head... :))
 

Ken
Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 03:56:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.60)

The AF Explosive Ordnance Disposal pukes use the .50 cal to, as you may have guessed by now, dispose of unexploded ordnance.

Speaking of Air Force, I forget who was looking for the sticker. Found one. If you'll e-mail me before Sat. I'll pick one up for you.

Semper lunchtime!
jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 03:56:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.9.40)

9mm ball? Geeze, John Paul II is still alive and kickin', and he took multiple hits from a BHP in 1980.

B U L L E T P L A C E M E N T!!!
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 04:01:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.217.210)

I know I know, someone out there is saying, "What a newbie post THAT was..."

I should have figured that AF .50 cal out on my own.
Thanks for the emails from those who responded already.

Geesh, thats what I get for taking two 3 hr college classes back to back and spending 3.5 hrs cross country dual in IFR this morning.

Wheres that rum bottle at? Pass it over this way...
The one with the 'super-sipper-snap-cap'?
~C
CCaspers <Deltavkps@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 04:03:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.48.19.47)

Are you implying that they may intent to use the Barett for runway perimiter defense? I'm just wondering...

I can really comment on that with any 'facts' but I do know from working and BS'ing with the training NCOIC, OIC, SP's and other 'base police' on Offutt AFB (and from being inside their arms room); that they have NO sniper weapons or training, let along any .50's.

They were trying to get funding to scope out some of their M-16's (possibly it was M-4 or CAR types - I dont remember) with scopes or to get some type of bolt action to be used for their SRT teams.

Last I heard was that upper echelons saw "no reasonable need or possible use' that would justify such procurement.

Go figure...
~C

CCaspers <Deltavkps@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 04:16:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.48.19.47)

Gooch, anything that promots drinking is fine by me.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 04:39:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.52)

On the pistol question

I carry a S&W 40 cal, It has almost the best of both the Nine and the 45ACP (in my opion). You get almost the volcity of the nine, which really should not matter unless you are shooting at superman hiped on speed. And almost as good knock down power of the 45 but. I think hands down you really cant beat the humbling roar and thump of a 45 piercing and riping flesh.

May I ask why we are disscussing Air Force security teams? That is a Joke those Fly Boys have an inferiority complex I think. I almost wipped so little grunts ass last year at Edwards becuse he had to smart off to me in a parking lot. Those guys could wip there way out of a wet paper bag if it was on fire. ( I am going to catch a flood for this one)
sigma532 <sigma532@yahoo.com>
SomewhereIn, Texas, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 04:48:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.254.144.34)

Savage Rifles - very adequate rifles, if you replace the trigger with an exceptional aftermarket trigger.

Springfield scopes: Have played aroudn with the 223 version adn the big 308 version with the 56 mm bell. 308 version was once again adequte, but that 223 version is a piece of dog shit from the word go. If youve got one unload (and not to a friend) to someone who is looking for that particular scope. Maybe Im just spoiled looking down such tubes as BL, Leopold, and Schmidt und Bender. Just my opinion.

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
East Of Waukegan somewhere in , Ohio, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 04:53:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.45)

Mike, +P+ never leave your 9 w/o it (or w/o it leave your 9). Mind you the HydraShok works well (especially in colder climates were people wear a lot of clothes). If I had grown up w/ the 1911 like you boys down south I probably would be a big .45 fan too. Our locals use the .40 G22 w/ 180gr Speer Gold Dots (had a couple problems with them - but no plans to switch). The RCMP use the 115gr Win Silvertip in their soon (apparently a problem w/ firing pin erosion) to be recalled S&W 6906’s.

Probably more people killed w/ .22LR than all of our Big Boy Stuff (once again - not recommending).

EOD - Yes I recall the CF using that same explanation (look how many actually are still in Engineer Armouries) Secret Squirrels show up in the night ‘borrowing’ kit - Why exactly do we need a 1000m+ EOD rifle? We BIP the large ones and use 5.56 on the bomblets.

Someone please explain Gain twists - I thought it was a gradual increase in the rifling. I remember in my Pre-PPCLI days looking in tubes and seeing a beveled increase in the lands (or grooves can never remember which) that was to be less aggressive on the brass driving bands. But recently I was told it is a greater twist rate as the barrel progresses? (I read the roster and am still confused).
 
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 05:15:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.134.227)

As for promoting drinking, start BREWING! I can turn $12 worth of dry goods into 7 gallons of Heiniken in about 4 weeks. Fosters takes a little longer. If I could get PERFECT McEwans Export IPA, well, then I wouldn't be able to type in the evenings. Working on it though......
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 05:24:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.162)

That would be a waste of 12 Bucks. Hey but I am from the South. So I am in favor of getting all Liquored Up and taking pot shots at anything that moves.

Owen Foster <Sigma532@yahoo.com>
SomeWhereIN , Texas, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 05:33:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.254.144.34)

Sorry to be so rude as to include off roster mail - but my point wasn't that a .22 was a good round for stopping - but a good back of the head round (PLACEMENT - in a way)and in that way has probably a bigger body count to its credit than other rounds.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 06:17:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.129.199)

Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 09:36:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.25.162)

Is it just my jaded philosophy rearing its ugly head, or does an article dealing with cowboy era gunleather not belong in Tactical Scooter....errr... I mean Tactical Shooter magazine ? Let 'er rip on that one! Not that I have anything against Joe Rychetnik or anything.
mda <shawnabell@msn.com>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 16:09:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.42)

What happened to the PX? Did it close or change location?

Also I'm still testng Cavim brass and am on the sixth reload, the first two where througha 91 then a M14 two times and now two differnt bolt guns. After the neck get thined and trimmed it works fine.Stll has the marks from the 91 flutes but no problems yet.

thanks
MJ
MJ <montereyjack@kmenterprises.com>
Monterey, Ca., USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 16:31:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.236.189.200)

That's assuming they are fired in conjuction with the rotation of the Earth, right? Otherwise, they would burrow at a rapid rate, thus increasing the mass of the planet at a correspondingly accelerated rate and thereby setting up shock waves such as those responsible for causing planetary axis tilt, thus leading to what we refer to as seasons. Rifling, as it were, through the laws of God's creation.

K
Keith <starlyte@frontier.net>
Durangatang, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 17:21:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.174.108.133)

Kieth-- it's time I fessed up. The earth is flat, stationary and the center of the universe, and it doesn't matter where you are, there will be no dif in trajectory, UNLESS you put one over the edge, in which case you may piss off a dragon and that's not good. This whole spinning earth thing was concocted by primitive peoples to explain what they were feeling after drinking too much rum!
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
Little Caracas, MI, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 19:09:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.145.129)

I'm looking to buy a varmit rifle and like the Savage 12VSS. Anybody have one of these and can comment?

I'm debating between 223 and 22-250. I'm leaning towards the 223 since shells are cheaper (don't have a reloading outfit *yet*) and I figure that more lead/practice will mean better accuracy than the higher speed of the 22-250. Any comments?

Thinking of a VariX III 6.5-25 X40 with target knobs and a target dot. Is this a good choice for varmits? How do you go about ranging with this scope? I like the MilDot but it's a fair amount more expensive than the target dot.

Appreciate any feedback and advice, thanks!

Joa
Central Oregon

Joa <jharrison*nospam*@precast.com>
Redmond, OR, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 19:37:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.119.46.10)

Okay, okay, I thought as much. So this would explain "RIGHT" angles, as opposed to "LEFT". One final question. If gravity works equally on all objects, why do bubbles go UP when you pour a beer into a glass?

K
 
 
 

Keith <starlyte@frontier.net>
Durangatang, USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 19:38:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.174.108.17)

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 20:03:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.87)

Dennis T., an ART MPC with a mount was worth about $375, new, with mount in late 1982. Nice scope, very easy to use.

Colin, the stateside (and Europe) Air Force is a different animal than the Korea US Air Force.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, March 24, 2000 at 23:52:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.217.210)

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