My summertime activity has me concerned though. Don't know how many of you go tubin down a river in the summer but it's great fun. Here where the summer heat can get up to 115 degrees a day spent on the cool river in an innertube can be great fun, that is if you don't mind thinking about the 175 people since 1975 that have died in the river.

Anyhow, to my little tid bit of knowledge. In the stagnant or calm pools of the river, mostly the places you get in or our if you are unlucky, you find leeches. With me hating needles and anything that sucks blood I found a quick step to removing the blood sucking slugs. Blackhawk and many others carry the waterproof Tabacco Can Keeper, inside I have a little sock that is filled with salt. When you get it moistened the salt is supper high concentrated and when you dab a leech with it, they curl up and let go of you in a hurry. Slugs don't like salt and I guess leeches are no different. If you feel you might be going somewheres where leeches may give you a hassle, carry the salt sock. One thing I thought about though, is there such thing as a salt water leech? I am in fresh water where the little guys don't have much tolerance for salt, but if there is a salt water variety my trick may not prove so helpful.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield, Ca.(the gungrabbing state), USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 19:47:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.218.229)

I love to use these weapons and practice with: long and short swords, shield, spears(as missle and melee weapons),
axes(throwing and melee), throwing knives, and bolt action rifles(7.7jap)(8mmMauser) and I have an M1garand

Adam Miller <brennus7@hotmail.com>
Gainesville, Florida, USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 20:44:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.196.74)

In NZ the force's are used a foldup stove similar to the German type,the solid fuel block's are around 1 1/2" square and 1/2" thick.
As the stove is around 4" squire by 1 1/2",soldier's either chop down a cup's canteen so to slip on to the bottom of a cup's canteen or carry 3 large 6" nail's with big flat head's,just push into ground and throw the fuel block in the centre,these option's are used to save space,so it can fit into their webbing/belt order.
Alot carry 2 cup's canteen's and do all their cooking using them,one for brew's and the other for food,most also have a small teflon frying pan in their pack as well.
On writing in the field,leave all your expensive space pen's at home to impress friend's,carry water proof paper and pencil's cut in half and sharpened at both end's,and a rubber.
You can use the same page up to 3 or more time's,when you have finished with the page and need no longer,dry it(if wet,in NZ it's almost alway's wet)then rub it out.It make's your dear waterproof paper last 3-4 time's longer.
Or if you are real cheap,like me,carry a piece of plastic to write on,using the same as above,plastic never wear's out like your waterproof paper .
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 22:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.206)

Primary set as follows:

Load bearing vest with web belt, butt pack and cold weather extender
- 3) 30 round 223 mags in upper left pockets
- 3) HK 45 mags in upper right inside pocket
- Beef jerkey (I don't like but figure a 4 legged buddy that I want to make friends with might), power bar, honey sticks and Pelican light in upper right outside pocket
- traumedic bandage, automatic center punch and electrical tape in bottom right grenade pocket
- traumedic bandage, bic lighter and camo makeup kit with mirror in left bottom grenade pocket
- Tritium compass in pouch attached to left shoulder strap
- Gerber Mark II (cause I can't afford better right now) on right side
- Leatherman Wave, Swiss army knife and smoke(when I find some good smoke bombs) in a M16 pouch on right side
- Canteen with cup and canteen stove with 2 trioxanes on right rear
- Butt pack with Ranger roll and the following inside
- MRE with heater; 223 and 45 bore snakes with breakfree in a zip lock; 25' 550 cord, BRW survial pouch, another lighter, 12 hour cyalume, 5 cble ties, epi-pen, in a zip lock; 3 power bars, 2 packs gum, water treatment pills, pack of coffee, toilet paper, tums, pepcid AC, chapstick, tylenol in a zip lock; neosporin, bandaids, steristrips, moleskin and vasoline gauze in a ziplock; 50' heavy paracord; spare HTX AA battery pack and cig adapter in a ziplock
- HTX-202 HAM, antenna and earbud/lapel mic in M16 pouch on left rear

Blackhawk Delta VI flapped holster on right side

Medium alice pack with the following:
- space blanket, tobaggin and gloves in flap
- 6 AR mags in M16 poucxes attached left bottom
- 2 empty M16 pouches on top left
- canteen with cup and empty M16 mag pouch on right bottom
- E-tool on top right
- 10 cable ties, hand warmers, signal flare kit, 2 12 hour cyalume sticks, toilet paper, 8 trioxanes and lighter in right outer pocket
- MREe, Datrex rations, extra coffee in middle pocket
- D and A spare batteries, small amfm radio, dc adapter with alligator clips, large angle head flashlight in left pocket
- long johns, socks, drawers, BDU's, 50' black rope with carabiner, PUR Voyager inside pack
 

Secondary setup is close to being finished using a Blackhawk TAC NU and is for an AK 7.62x39. mags will fit the the mag pockets.
 

Third setup is close to being setup and will be for shotgun only:
- Ystraps and belt setup mostly M16 pouches, lots-o-shells
 

Fourth setup will be for Storm Mountain and will be based on using Camo Liquidator Mule, Y straps and web belt.
 

Bug out bag is an Alice large pack with frame and essentially duplicates everything above with the addition of more ammo, food and water, sleeping gear and tent, gurka kukri.
 

Theory - primary set, secondary set and shotgun set is for city problem solving. Can drop patrol pack and keep hauling ass. Bug out bag is for humping and is a monster.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 22:23:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.56.75)

The issue 12" kukri is great, but heavy. Atlanta cutlery sells the officer's model that's 9" for $22 or so. It will do the job real damned fine, and you save much weight and bulk.
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 23:30:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.148)

LOL and its a good thing I keep my Large pack loaded Otherwise I would have forgot a couple things if I was in a hurry. Gloves something important as hell in my country anyhow, Cold as hell in the morning and Cold as hell in the Evening here, even in hte summer if your in any Highcountry at all, So for Gloves I like the wool ones with the flip mittens so you can pull the trigger in a hurry, Also dont think it would be a bad Idea to carry a set of leather gloves for constructing shelter, dealing with barbed wire ect.
Ok for a Saw I always have carried the Wisconson Saw, Has to saw blades one for bone one for wood, I believe them to be 12 inches or so. It breaks down nicley and fits in its own fanny type pack and buckles around the waste It is Flat enough to carry a fanny Pack over it with Zero effect to Comfort. As for a Shovel Im afraid I only have one of those Surplus Shovles with the folding pick on it as well. ( Mulling the glock shovel Idea but know the woman wont go for it).

Wich Brings up a Question, With a Large knife its there in a pinch to cut ect. but then you have the whap sound ect. so Wouldnt it be better to saw instead? Also I have always wonder how you would Dig and minimize the noize. Dig a bit and listen? have your partner at a Distance to watch what?

Steve I was only in one of those tournements (small one mind you) on a bet cause of my Big Mouth, Luckly I wasnt to drunk to back it up LOL. yes they do get into it but they got plenty of padding and armour. When we used to fool around with it before id ever heard of the SCA we didnt have any padding nothing, and many just took boards and carved weopons out of them used clubs ect. needless to say only lasted a couple of months to many Injuries. But I would have to say we learned well cause we got tired of getting hurt or didnt want to get hurt seriously. I used the same Logic in martial arts sparing ect. If your used to wearing padding and protection you will end up getting hurt in a non controled enviroment, Pain is a huge wake up call, and you never want to forget it or you get careless. But I do everything for keeps and keep anything as real as possible so end up not being fun for others.

Ses Partison
 

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 00:14:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.190.169)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 01:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.69)

'Course, you've all pegged how grunts end up dragging SO much stuff along through the bush that really doesn't get touched; however it's taught me how to carry along enough stuff whether it's really comfortable or not...

Not really wanting to make item-by item lists, just will pop off some thoughts on items...

One of the fist things I did was replace my poncho liner with a Patrol Bag from Wiggy's... really small synthetic bag, much warmer, yet packs down almost as small as the poncho liner itself; with it, combined with a bit of personal initiative (that wasn't allowed in the Corps! "No, you can't hooch under a big pile of leaves... we can't find you for your turn at firewatch!") it can substitute for your a bigger sleeping bag, too. I'd combine it w/ a poncho and never would need another type of hooch if you remember: location, location, loaction. Would go w/ something lighter than an issue poncho, though...

Synthetics are great. Even when it's not all that cold, I find I'm a lot more comfortable w/ capiline bottoms on under my BDU trousers. NO cotton t-shirts: just asking for trouble. Use synthetic socks, too. And I live by Danner boots.

I've taken to my Liberty Pack by TNF. It's smaller than an Alice, so it keeps me from carrying too much shit, it can double as a civy-pack since it's not "military"; it's kinda like a baby internal-frame pack. Light, too, and comfortable under load (good adjustments).

I like my MSR International stove... fairly small, you can pick what size fuel bottle you need for your "mission"; I always carry mine when cavin'... Zippo lighter w/ it.... and some proofed matches tucked away just in case.

I also hardly go anywhere w/o my Benchmade mini-AFCK, great all-purpose pocket knife. Strong enough to do almost anything a bigger knife can do, but very handy size.

A good bit of parachute cord is always useful. A roll of trip wire is very handy, too, and small and light.

I like Ka-bars, but opt for my Gerber 9" BMF... a bit more meaty: can dig w/ it, and it won't break like E-tools do (I destroyed 3 e-tools digging fighting holes, each early on in their usage... a branch would be more dependable!) Most of the time it's actually just along for the ride, but when you need it it does whatever you need it to do.

Also like having a SOG Para-tool somewhere w/ me, either on myself or in the pack... they're pretty nifty tools (or Leatherman, or Multi-plier... pick your brand/ features, etc.)

I still haven't coughed up the money to get one, but I've been eyeing Katadyn filters... I like the field-maintainable nature of the element, so you can keep going and going... the normal Pocket-Filter was a bit heavier than other brands, though, back when I was issued one. Therefore, I'm leaning towards their smaller sizes over the weight issue.

Light discipline: I try to do everything w/o any artificial light source, but I always keep a light w/ me for the just-in cases. I really like Petzl, but there are other similar lights out there (something that can go on your head: hands-free is GREAT!) Smaller is better (unless cavin'!)

Although I usually am using a larger Brunton transit as my compass, all you really need is a decent little itty-bitty Silva or some-such other little well-made compass, and a map of your region.

A small yet well-thought-out first aid kit is a must.

If packin' MREs, strip 'em down... no need to carry 4 spoons, 3 accessory packs, and the deyhdrated peaches if you're not going to use it... and, once you've opened it, you can usually repack it smaller after tossing out the junk. Sometimes cans are REALLY useful (improv stoves, etc.), but usually are just too much weight... repack into lighter, smaller containers if it's something that'll survive repacking.

Ammo, sidearm, rifle, etc., as needed.

Oh, and some cash. Can always come in handy.

That's about it for item-specifics.... there's other bits, but most of it is same-'ol same-'ol for all of us....

-L
Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
Between Okalona and Waycross (if you can find them!), TN-VA, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 04:37:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.246)

Bolt's talking some interesting stuff about the HTX-202 HAM. Tell us about it Bolt.

I guess I've used all the mark II's and everything related. They work as weapons in a limited range of applications. They stab almost as well as a Bowie. Period. They don't chop, they don't cut, they don't slice. They are nearly useless as tools. I've actually thrown them away.

The Cold Steel Trail Master Bowie is vastly more usefull. If you want a good, cheap, versitle tool, it's a solid choice. If you want to spend some major $$$, talk to John M. Smith, Jerry Fisk, Jim Crowell (if He'll take your call) and be prepared to talk with some real fine folks and to learn and to wait. You don't get a tool, you get a living thing with a soul.
 
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 04:40:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.41)

Ok and I dont get this altitude stove crap we planning for a trip up everest or what? in that case better Hump the old Oxygen tanks too cause youll be needing some help Breathing.

Oh for Bug repelent eating garlic on a regular basis will Make your body produce a natural Gene to repel insects, Not totally, But helped me not to be the smorgus board for mosquitos I once was.

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 05:14:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.187.120)

Regards the question about the stock on the Winchester Stealth; I called Winchester today about that stock and was told that they are supplied by McMillan.

If you had to choose between a Stealth or a Remington VS SF
which would you prefer?
Doug <atex@gte.net>
Florida, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 05:51:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.96.44.12)

you guys are telling me to leave my baby blue PJ´s at home ????
 

t
T <torsten,erning@t-online.de>
germany - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 06:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.117)

Heres my bug out bag contents. It is alot and heavy, I just want everything I could need in one handy package I could grab going out the door, what I didnt need would be jetisoned. Also, some Items are nice for emergency situations (re earthquakes, etc.) and would be tossed ASAP in a TEOTWAWKI situation.

. Main Pack
A. Small ditty bag
1. Waterproof Matches
2. Toilet paper
3. Bug Repellent (DEET)
4. Sunscreen
5. Strike Force flint lighter
6. Swiss Army Knife
7. Sewing kit w/ dental floss and Glide dental floss
8. Bic lighter
9. Space blanket
10. Plastic signal mirror
11. Water Purifying tablets
12. Roll, Athletic tape
13. Key chain w/ spare keys to house and car, p38 can opener, fingernail clippers, small flint lighter.
14.$200 in small bills and quarters.
 

B. MRE (2)
C. Bandoleer .223, 140 rds
D. Role Duct tape
E. AM/FM/Short wave radio
F. Mini Binoculars
G. Rain poncho
H. Light sticks (4)
I. Small Ditty bag
1. Tommy cooker stove
2. Troxane fuel tabs (7)
3. Candle lantern w/ extra candles (3)

2. Pocket 1

A. Glock Entrenching tool
B. 100' 550 Para cord
C. Nylon rope
D. Zip ties, 12"
E. Extra pair Prescription glasses
 
 
 

3. Pocket 2

A. First aid kit
B. Hand sanitizer
C. Instant heat packs
D. Field dressings (2)
 

4. Pocket 3

A. Water
 

5. Top pocket

A. Triangle bandage
B. Mini Mag light w/ extra AA batteries
C. Light stick holder
D. Bic lighter
E. Folding pocket knife
F. Pain medication (Tylenol)
G. Nomex flight gloves
 

6. Attached outside

A. Gerber small pack Axe
B. Carabiner
C. Alice Clips (2)
D. Poncho liner
E. Emergency D cell Strobe light
F. 1 qt Canteen with cup

7. Web Gear

A. Pistol belt with "Y" harness

1. Flap holster with Beretta 92
2. Double mag pouch for Beretta, 2 magazines
3. Two M16 30 rd mag pouches, 6 magazines
4. Glock knife with root saw
5. Pouch with Waterproof matches, Bic lighter, Compass.
6. Mini Mag light w/ lanyard.

8. Second pack

A. Change of clothes (Pants, shirt, socks, underwear)
B. Boots
C. 2 qt canteen, empty
D. Boonie hat

8. Rifle

A. AR 15 with sling and 30 rd magazine.

9. Kept close at hand

A. Gas mask
B. .223 ammo on clips in Bandoleers
C. 10 loaded 20 rd mags in SKS chest pouch
D. 9mm ammo
E. Empty Para bags.
F. Other rifles, ammo, and supplies.
 

mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 07:11:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.198)

The HTX-202 HAM is a Radio Shack walky-talky in the 2 meter (144 mcs) band. These frequencies are reserved for the Ham radio operators, of which there are some 700,000.
Radios on the ham bands should be avoided in a "Bug out bag", even if you're a ham, for several reasons.
First... you need a license to use them (the test isn't hard), and unlawful use can be expensive. There are a lot of regulations about using them, including identifying who you are every 10 minutes. But this is a minor issue.

The real problem with thee radios is this... a good percentage of the users of these frequencies are skilled "Rabbit hunters"... a phrase meaning they hunt hidden transmitters as a weekend hobby. Many have "DF'ing (direction finding) equipment in their car, or hand held. They are damn good at finding radio trespassers on their frequencies.
On top of that, many towns have units with this equipment, for use in emergencies, like tornadoes, hurricanes, and "civil disobedience".

So you wind up with a radio that, when you need it to talk to your amigos when you want to get lost in the woods... will bring the rabbit hunters, and the town emergency folks, directly to your hide. You might as well leave a trail of bread crumbs.
I've had a "ham license" for 40+ years, and have done rabbit hunting, so I can tell you... you will be busted very fast.
Most of my "armed rabble" friends also have licenses, but none of us have ham radios in our "Go kits".

Constant diet of Garlic...

Keeps skeeters away, and also keeps away the birds (two legged kind)... I'd go with Deet, and camo mesh netting (so the skeeters couldn't see me :)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 12:13:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.35)

It happened here, in my home town, a few years ago when the local liquor store ran out of beer on New Year's Eve. Other than that, its been pretty quiet around here.

I can understand why some Europeans, Isrealis and others might want to consider preparing for immediate evacuation while being armed to the teeth. Afterall, their histories would provide enough justification to do so.

The last time North Americans had to worry about an "invasion force" would have been the War of 1812. So, what the hell are you guys so worked up for, the second comming of Christ and impending armagedon ?

Besides being prepared for natural disasters, why the need to be armed for war ?

Man, I thought this site was about LONG RANGE SHOOTING, not the improbable fantasies of the paranoid.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, just trying to understand where you're coming from on this.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 12:50:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.222.48.30)

My gear list is always subject to change and usually I do something to it every nite. The stuff has be added to, subtracted from and rearranged so much here lately that I can't even remember what it looked like to begin with. I asked the gear question here several months ago and didn't get near this response. 'Lito and I did type together on it a couple of times. The posts I have read here give me alot of new ideas so tonight I will probably tear the shit apart again and go through the same ritual.

On gear and Bugging Out. Remember the Boy Scout Oath, "be prepared", for what, who knows. I have always had something prepared to haul butt out of, or into, a situation. I was an Eagle Scout, vigil member in the OA, lived on the coast for 5 years and live in the state that has had the most damage from hurricanes, tornados and shit of any state in recent memory. I am in a medical disater and hazmat team that, here lately, is on constant standy to travel just about anywhere. I have a daughter in school on the coast that don't know beans about taking care of herself (not my fault!) so I have to be ready to go East when disaster strikes.

Recently, I decided to add communications gear and weaponry other than a Model 19 Smith to the gear. Still cannot carry weapons on Federal disaster callouts though.

Anyway, to answer Jeff's inquiry on why I carry gear or be prepared to encounter the unknown, I have no concrete answer except to say that I still remember the riots here in 68 and 72, 8 hurricanes in the past 2 years, the worst flooding in the history of North Carolina, not to mention the standard bad guys, gangs, skinhead militia types, terrorists and most of all a 70 year old mother. No, I do not think it is likely that the US will be nuked, gassed or invaded any time soon. I do however think that the reasons to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best outweigh the reasons not to.

On carrying and practicing with the gear, I have had the kinks out of my disaster team gear for several years, know what I need and what I don't. It's now just a matter of pulling the weapons and most of the extra food and good to go. On the new LBE and Patrol Pack setup, the first time I had to carry it was hunting last week. If felt heavy but that is because my fat ass is out of shape cause I have to work to jobs and don't have much time for working out here lately.

On the knives, I have planned on selling all my Gerbers and pick up some Rhinaldi Customs. They appear to be quality and have have some good references. Just don't have the cash yet. The kukri I carry is a LTC and it will be replaced with the Rhinaldi when the cash is available.

'Lito, thanks for the heads up on the HAM rabbit hunter situation. The HTX was mainly purchased for listening and learning. Am currently studying for the HAM license but no tests available until next month. Your point about directional antennas is a very good one. I guess I will use it during disaster emergencies only. How about CB? This brings up another point, what do sniper teams use for comm's?

I also agree that this is a long range shooting site but I think that there are alot of subjects that necessarily go with shooting, gear is one of them. What to carry at next years Carlos Match is of prime concern to me at this point.
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 14:35:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

You are lucky to live in such a "civilized" country.

We have the Watts riots in L. A., the Trenton riots, Overton, Miami, Atlanta, 2nd NY city Blackout, the Rodney King riots... and four or five more, whose names slip my over taxed (I.R.S.) brain.

You'se Canadians have a fairly stable population (except for the Indian tribes, and the Frenchies, who are ready to throw some poop in your fans, on their own)...
...we, on the other hand, have a very fractured society, with many groups vying for power, or a bigger share of what they think is "coming to them"... and often, our politicians further divide us into groups, and pit the groups against each other, to hold their power.
If you've followed our government the last 7 years, you've seen an excellent example of this.

Some of our "Poopie hit the fan" incidents have been large enough, that areas the size of a medium town have been burned to the ground, and many innocent bystanders have been killed.
Over 60 people were killed in the Rodney Kink affair, most were innocent store keepers, and bystanders.
In every one of these incidents, the police were NOT intervening, they were ordered to stand back for political reasons.
So no one was protecting the citizens, and when the hoards came with the guns or bottles of gasoline, you were on your own.

Most of our insurance companies do not pay out in cases of "Civil disobedience, or insurrection"... so if you can't protect it, you can loose everything you own (and still owe the debts) in two bad days.

In addition, this country has some serious economic problems just under the surface, and there are many that feel that at some point, the cat is going to get out of the bag, and things may come down like a house of cards.

Pablito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 14:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.35)

CB - forget it... even on the highway, to find gas, or speed traps, it's a looser.

'lito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 14:53:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.35)

Well said Pablito, I only have one thing to ad Im willing to bet Jeff puts on his seat belt on and hes not planning on getting into a wreck eather now is he.

Bolt Im one hundred percent with you, I always have emergancy gear ready, My main Pack is Always loaded. I always have some spare water in the house, food that doesnt require cooking. I also carry in each car extra gloves tire chains,(been known to snow more than once in the summer here) and a fanny pack loaded with the bare essential of gear. food candles flashlight water space blanket knife ect. Also there is always a Gun in the car with plenty of ammo. I think we always assume will be home when shit hits the fan or any natural disaster happens, odds are with the way peoples lives are chances are probably against that.
I also think the Boy Scout organization is one of the best things any kid could go thru and wish it was manditory for all youths. Hell I dont even think it would be bad for adults,, we tend to think of it as something for kids but I still like the basics in the boy scouts manuals and recomend them all the time for people wanting to learn survival.

Mike M I see US cav has your Sniper vest for 150 bucks.

Ses
Partison
 

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 15:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.203)

As to we live in a civilized soceity: Buddy, I have worked the Rodney King Riots, The Thieves after the Oakland Hills Fire, The last Major SF Earth Quake and countless others. If you think anyone is safe you have another thing coming. It is not paranoia it is being smart. I dont go to certain parts of the Bay Area without a weapon, eventhough I am off duty because the averages say thateventually someone will try something. I work in a city with a population of less than 400,000 and a murder rate of about 150-175 per year. I dont call that civilized. Now when something major happens and we cops cant hold the lid down the world around goes nutts. We dont have to worry about this for probably years to come but every time the SF Niners have one the Super Bowl the city has been taken over by loiters. Think about a real excuse in your town. By the way the only businesses in LA danger area of the last riot,that were not destroyed were the ones protected by the owners.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 15:49:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.163)

Ses
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 16:15:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.203)

First Aid - Leave the volumes of trauma dressings, etc at home, you need bandaids, a couple 4x4 pads, a small tube of triple antibiotic ointment (generic brand), two cravats (36" cloth triangle), aspirin or ibuprofin (better than tylenol for field use), broad spectrum oral antibiotic (need a sypathetic doc or you might be able to get from a pet store), tiny suture kit, mole skin, foot powder and tiny scissors.

If you get hurt so bad as to need a trauma dressing, your gonna need surgery...there aint no surgery in a austere environment, so you die..no need to lug around trauma dressings. If your gonna aquire medical skills, priority would be suturing and airway management.

Radios - If you really think you'll need radios, work out a very brief, coded way of communicating which also implies frequent changes of frequencies.. I would avoid transmitting at all costs. Perhaps a scanner would be a better choice.

Field Food. - Pasta is very light, full of carbs and can be cooked and stored in a ziplock for use over an extended op. Multivitamins can fill in gaps in your long term nuturition.

Water - to the guy that suggested not worrying about water purification....read your history books....way too many men have died in the field for us to screw this one up...you need to protect your water source, one slip up and your baggage that has to be taken care of and moves slow. You also will require much more water to get better as your bowels will be spewing water out the back end faster than you can put it in.

Carrying gear - the assumption on everyones gear list seems to be that you'll be moving far from your point of origin. I personally would not move from someplace familiar to a place that's unfamiliar. I would cache equipment someplace that I could return to periodically, and only carry what I needed from day to day. If you have to leave, at least you could consume as much of your cache as possible prior to leaving, wheras if you leave everything but the essentials in your "home-base", what will you do if it is no longer accessable.

Like Bolt, I'm a SAR team member and have learned lessons about austere environs the hard way. There most definitely are differences between what a rescue/medic has to deal with at a natural disaster and what a military type operator will encounter in hostile ground, so I share what I know, explain where I learned it and hope that it's useful.

Regards
Jim
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 16:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

We *need* it, because we can have it. Same goes for why we own all these four wheel drive vehicles, own more guns than the local National Guard units, have cars that will do 130, with a speed limit of 65. We need it because, well, we just do!

Quick note on knives: If you are into commercial flights carrying one [check the laws:)], look at the Mad Dog Tactical ceramic / poly knives. Expensive, but way neat. Oh, the Glock entrenching tool will also make it through most metal detectors...in case you get the urge to do some gardening as soon as you land:) For good strong do anything "fighter" knives, check out the REKAT Hobbitt line. Also highly recommend you look to a neck knife, which is worn in a kydex sheath on either paracord or a chain around your neck. Slip a shirt on over it...always handy and out of the way.

On use of a staff [bo]. Nothing exotic to learning this...just don't swing it like a bat. Grasp in center, with hands a foot or so apart, use side to side or up and down. Also great to use as you would hold a pool cue...as a jabbing device to create distance...very hard for the opponent to catch it this way. Outside of a gun, perhaps the best device when properly used to save you from a dog. btdt.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
feral, dog, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 16:54:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

To Each his Own
Partison

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 17:19:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.191.231)

old dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 18:11:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Jeff: Self reliance. Not paranoia, just common sense. In my part of the country (Mormon) everyone is supposed to have 7 years food and water stored at all times. That make them kooks?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 18:36:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

A good Bowie or Arkansas camp knife will do all that and the Bowie is a vastly better weapon.

A Cold-Steel Kukri with a Gerber E-Z out folder would be good enough. You can get them both from Midsouth Shooter's Supply for a total of under $80. The catalog in my lap lists the Trailmaster Bowie at $135. That's a good deal.

Danners are excellent. I own three pairs and have worn out three others. My two objections to the very fine Ft Lewis is that the welt is so broad that carefull (read: Quiet) foot placement in uneven (Rocky-Mountain) terrain isn't easy. And mine squeak. Buy them big and non-insulated. Wear extra socks and change them when wet. Replacable insulation is usually best. They lace almost to the toe so you can ajust the size down in warm weather.

Asolo makes boots that are worth checking out. They are my first choice.

Water purification is cheap insurance against nasty, nasty problems. Halizone and Iodine take up almost no room, weigh nothing and are cheap-cheap. Not good long term. For that use something else.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 18:39:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.35)

Bravo if I remember right the Geardia never actually leaves your body.
I know my Dad had it bad and every couple of years hell spend about three days enjoying the company of the tidybowl family. I was fortuante to as you say only have a small amount of it.

CDC best winter boots I have found thus far is the Mickey Mouse boots, there not the most comfortable thing in the world and yes they look like shit. But all take that over cold feat any day of the week. plus you can still get a pair for around 50$ and your completly right on extra socks extremely Important.

And damn it I need to get a winter job so Im not checking this Roster every half hour.

Partison

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 19:08:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.190.84)

Well, I'm from California, the land of earthquakes and firestorms. (Not to mention riots, like the Rodney King "uprising".) Saw people in downtown business districts patrolling their storefronts with slung shotguns after the '89 quake, when the roads were broken, phones were down, and cops had better things to do. I did volunteer work with the CDF when the Oakaland hills went up in flames, and entire neighborhoods were turned to cinders in minutes. My house was just outside an area that was evacuated when a tank car in an oil refinery emitted a sulfuric acid cloud that affected half of Richmond. Other places have hurricanes, tornados, floods, blizards, etc. Some of these you can see coming, others you can't. The earth is a dangerous place to live.

I was in a resturaunt one time when the construction crew across the street hit a gas main. Sounded like a jet plane that wanted to take off but couldn't. No problem cutting my meal short, but if I'd been living there, my cats and I would have had to live off of what I could carry out in the next 30 seconds until they'd fixed it.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 21:40:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.22.22.2)

I've got two pairs of Danners (1pr Ft Lewis, 1pr 10" assault boot) that have over 20 years between them that I wouldn't trade for shit. I had the assault boots resoled recently and it appears that the goretex inner boot has lost integrity. Not bad for a 12 year old pair of boots though. I do like the boots that use codura instead of leather as I find that they dry out faster and are lighter and tougher than the leather.

I did see a picture from the recent Seattle festivities of a cop with his Danner firmly planted on the side of the face of a protester. Nothing like a Vibram facial!! Love it.

Out here.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 22:52:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.155)

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 23:14:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.190.122)

Just thought I'd let ya know my Rem. 721-based H-S Precision rifle is finished, it's a helluva looker. Shot very well for a sporter weight rifle, .094" 3 shot group @100yds. 180 gr Sierra Matchking, 70 gr IMR 4350, average velocity was 2922fps. I'm happy with it!! I gotta go out and see if I can bag the trophy skinhead tomorrow. I'll have to take her out to 200 yds for zero, but we zeroed at 1.6" high at the 100 yd mark downstairs in the dungeon, so it should be pretty close, I'd think.

Take it easy

JR <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 23:39:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.83.208.193)

Old Dog: Holy Cow...how did you know that your wife put me up to posting about the need for a "bug out bag"? She must have fessed up to you and admitted to it. Right?

'lito:Canadians civilized? ...How dare you even suggest such a thing. I'm highly insulted. Have you ever watched a hockey game? Hey, we stake our national pride on the outcome of the fights, not the game.

I come from a country where Y2K means, "Your 2 Knees", not "Yeat two thousand".

I wasn't trying to say a man shouldn't protect his life or property. I was asking about a "bug out bag".I'm not against taking reasonable precautions to ensure that a person has enough vital necessities to get them through traumatic situations.

However, what concerns me are the fruitcakes walking the streets that simply use the fear of unrest as an excuse to arm themselves to the balls with firearms.

Sure, every gun club has at least one, or more of these guys.They seem to pop up at most of the gun shows too. I swear to God some of these guys are wishing that something would happen, so that they had the opportunity to show what manly men they really are.

That's why I find a little bit of this "bug out bag" stuff a little hard to swallow.

As far as "survival" is concerend, basic items are necessities.However, I'm personally convinced that all the gear in the world won't save your sorry ass if you haven't got the mentality to deal with the situation at hand.

Bravo, Bolt,Grasshopper,'lito and Mike M...thanks for sharing your insights.

Bravo, no, not kooks.Perhaps,just crazy.You're right about self reliance though. I certainly wouldn't want to depend on others to maintain survival.
 
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada...home of the world's best tasting beaver - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 23:51:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.222.48.30)

If you have two feet that are the same length consider yourself lucky. Right foot is a 12 1/2 and left foot is a 12. The only boots that I can get to fit are Rockys. On the sock thing, this year I started using the Dupont Thermstat sock liners under Thuralo socks. No sweatty feets no more, dry as a bone and now they stay warmer cause they aren't wet.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 23:58:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.146.240)

I represent that remark. Hockey fights... pussy!! Down here, south of the border (the Canadian border)... if the wrong team wins, they burn the God damn town down... if the right team wins, they burn the God damn town down!!

"However, what concerns me are the fruitcakes walking the streets that simply use the fear of unrest as an excuse to arm themselves to the balls with firearms."

I can't speak for your side of the line, but in the US, the states with no carry restrictions, have the least problems, in spite of the fact that they have poverty, inner-cities etc. If there are the "fruitcakes" that you suggest (a rather poor stereotype), they are aware that everybody else is armed, and get manors real fast!!

"I swear to God some of these guys are wishing that something would happen, so that they had the opportunity to show what manly men they really are."

I think that you're reading too much literature from the anti-gun groups... this is their favorite mantra... "We MUST keep the guns out of the hands of the fruitcakes"... but the experience in the US, is just the opposite. there is a famous saying (that everybody out there but me knows who said)... "An armed society is a polite society".
The "Armed Fruitcake" is only a "real bad man" in a town where no one else owns a gun. In a "concealed carry" state, he doesn't know who has, or how good they are, and these guys never surface.

Partison...

Unless your TV is a lot different than mine... what I saw wasn't "the citizen's voice" being suppressed by the mean ol' government... it was an out of control mob that was smashing, burning and looting... and a lot of civil disorder. the kind of thing that can escalate real fast, if not brought into check.

When I was young (a Looooong time ago), we used to hear people say, "I don't like what you say, but I'll fight for your right to say it"...

You don't hear that too much any more. The First Amendment guarantees the right to speak, and assemble... not the right to smash, burn, loot, and destroy.
What is going on in Seattle is not the expression of free speech... it is the petulant, childish behavior of the left, because they can't have things the way they want them.

Remind anyone of the 60's???

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 00:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.16)

Partison
 

Paritson <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 00:53:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.187.112)

Robert J. Heinlin. Might check the spelling.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 01:39:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.68)

Also, consider replacing that ultimate of backpacking sins-the E-tool! Of course this doesn't apply if you're required to carry it, or if you really might have to dig a fighting position, but otherwise a GARDEN TROWEL will suffice for field hygiene and campfire purposes.

Boots: Amen on Danners, including Fort Lewis'. Have checked on (and off 12 hours later, warm and dry) MANY times in mine, in rain, snow, and ice. Matterhorn makes a good copy (unless some of you know of bad instances with them.) My current pair are Matterhorns. So far, so good. Hi-Tecs deserve honorable mention for comfort, but not near as rugged (I go through 3 Hi-Tecs to every 1 Danner)

Bicycles: GENERALLY speaking, although most have low, middle, and high line bikes, try to go with Cannondale, Trek, GT, Mongoose, Raleigh, Klein, some Shwinn (sp?) and I'm probably forgetting some. Dont get a steel frame. Chrome-Moly lighter and can still be welded in a pinch. Aluminum and Carbon Fiber better yet, but you may be SOL IF it tears up (not likely during reasonable use) during hard times.
Buy a book or take a course on repair, and have spare parts available, as well as spare tubes.

God I like it when you guys talk about something I have knowledge on...
 

David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 02:14:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.79.88.226)

Heheh. I said, alot of stuff, but I have used or needed every item in one situation or the other.

And to our canadian friend, the last time I needed a Bug out Bag was during the Northridge Earthquake (1993?) when I was standing outside in the 40 degree temp at 4:30 AM in the dark in my boxers with shards of glass in my feet cause I had to book out of my colapsing house. Had my bags been where they are now, I would of been set with everyting I needed, including keys to my truck which I had to search for in the rubble afterwards. I'm not a "fruitcake" or a gunshop commando or an end of the world zelot. I am simply prepared, to the best of my ability, for situation I know I will be in sooner or later.
Where I live, Los Angeles, it is a volitile situation every day. It just takes a Rodney King or police beating to set the heathen masses off into a frenzy. Sooner or later I will be in the middle of it, and need to be prepared for it. If that sounds hard to swallow, you don't live in my reality.
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 03:08:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.145)

First....
Going to start practicing firing from prone with bidpod this weekend. Don't have any moving targets so I'm going to set up 3 in a row several feet apart and shoot from one to the other while moving the rifle. Now, it appears to me that the bipod legs are going to catch on the grass and rocks and stuff and not want to move smoothly (tried it on the carpet just now). How do you overcome this?

Second.....
I have noticed that the folks wearing ghillie suits do not appear to be carrying anything such as web gear and stuff. Since the ghillie suits are made to slide across the gound without catching, how do you carry your gear without catching?

Third.....
Do you camo or blacken your cartridges to keep from shining?

Fourth.....
Sure would be nice to have a video on how to make a ghillie. Gooch, this may be something for you guys at SMTC want to think about. Would gladly pay for a good tape.

And finally to Jeff B.
All the gear in the world may not save your ass if you don't have the mindset, but I will guarantee you if you have the mindset and not the gear you can bend over and kiss you ass goodbye because the other guy does. Bugging out and bug out bags mean many things to many people. Pregnant women have bug out bags for the hospital with all their delivery stuff in them. Business people have suitcases packed in their offices just in case they have to travel. People that live in environmentally unstable areas of the country such as those on the coast or those that live on fault lines or those in very cold climates subject to being caught in a blizzard on the road have emergency kits. They can be cardboard boxes, leather suitcases, or what ever.
I will admit that until recently, I only carried the basics in the Blaze. Awareness of past and current natural and manmade events has prompted me to go a little overboard, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Several months ago I ran across a site called the Alpha Survival Group. These are just good people, not militia or militant, that know a hell of a lot about how to get along in the world when the world doesn't cooperate. I have learned more about surviving any situation that I could think of from those people than I could have
read in a hundred books. They help, they answer my stupid questions and do it without judgement.
The gear that I carry is carried not for Y2K specifically, it is carried to get my ass out of any bind that I find myself or my family in. Survival is a mindset in itself. Ask those poor bastards caught in the massive traffic jambs during hurricane Floyd what they had to survive with and more than likely they would have looked at you like a doe in headlights. Ask those people that get caught in snow bank on the highway if they could live for a day or two without rescue, problem is you would have to ask them postumously.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 03:30:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.191.171)

Knives: One in pocket of BDU,jeans, whatever, one on belt, and one in/on pack. Normally I have a Cold Steel Scimitar in my pocket, a Leatherman Wave on belt and a Cold Steel Trail Master on my gear. Also have one of the 1st Cold Steel ATC (The thick one) in my truck and a Recon Tanto in my Gregory mtn ruck.That's not including my Cold Steel Outdoorsman and mini-Outdoorsman in my hunting bag. Also have 2 magnesium sticks, 1 in 1st aid bag and the other at the bottom of the Gregory.

Speaking as a former medic that spent a lot of time in the boonies (here & elsewhere)... Purification tablets GOTTA HAVE THEM !!! The "Katadyn" filter is great but pricey.

BUG OUT ?? WHERE ?? So you need to leave your AO. What makes you think you'll be welcome in mine ? If you haven't already been planning for years (As some have, maybe even me)then where are you going to go, and be welcome. I live 120 miles from a major city and not that far from the interstate, I have another large city not quite as far in the opposite direction and still another in another direction !! Talk about "stuck between a rock and a hard place"!! Not quite, I'll just stay where I am (or close to it)and stand fast. My Mormon friends from years gone by told me about having foodstuff and provisions for ONE YEAR...made sense to me.

Last but not least...What about spare parts for your weapons ?? Firing pins, springs, etc...Does anyone else rotate their ammunition and if so...what do you propose as shelf life of you reloads ??
Geez, did I get on a roll or what ??
Out Here !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
Still Slapping 'quitos, The South, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 03:43:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.131.198)

What you do with your gear is your own business. I was just trying to get some questions answered, like you often do. Friend, go back and re-read my last post, I think you'll see that we are in agreement about preparing for the situations that you have described.

I've learned a lot from this discussion. Some of it makes a lot of sense to me. It has reminded me that I don't have even basic kit in my vehicle in case of roadside emergencies and the like. I'd best get my ass into high gear and box up a few items together!

Mike S: Man, I didn't call you a fruitcake. You're right, I don't live in your reality. Thank God, for me. I wouldn't want to go through riots either.

'lito: whether you want to admit it or not, or even agree with me, you can't tell me that some of the more extremist individuals out there are not a legitimate cause for concern. They give all of us main stream guys a black eye.

Unfortunately, you don't have to go to far to hear someone claiming that the sky is falling. That's just tellin' it like it is. All's I'm saying is that I personally have more fear of them doing something stupid than some of the more rationally minded individuals out there. In my books, some of these guys are fruitcakes.

I'd be willing to bet that your assertions are correct regarding lower crime levels in areas where concealed carry is permitted. I wouldn't debate that one at all.

As far as hockey is concerned, you're not too far off from the truth. When the Montreal Canadiennes (en fracais, sil vous plait) last won the Stanley Cup in '93, the fans took the partying to the streets. A few drunk assholes ruined it for everyone by looting businesses, burning buildings, and rolling over some police cars. They didn't quite burn down the town, but I'm sure they could have had they actually wanted to.

Have a good night everyone...
 
 
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympaatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada...Home of the World's best tasting beaver - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 04:31:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.89.64)

For sparks, consider the small zipper pull sized "Hot Spark" (available from Boy Scout Eq. dealers,) a Gerber Strike Force, or the daddy rabbit for speed and efficency, the Blast Match, available from some backpacking stores. It's like a Strike Force, but quicker into operation and maybe more sparks. (I SWEAR I don't get nothing from these companies...) Or carry a lighter or waterproof matches. Be redundant here, though.

The absolute quickest is an M49 Flare with all the trip hardware removed, if you're able to come into one of these little jewels. I've seen a waterlogged pile of firewood burn all night after a tripflare was tossed in. DON"T LOOK AT IT!

BTW, I've BTDT on this issue. I'm humbly silent to you guys on most sniper subjects, but I am an avid winter wilderness hiker, and in winter 91 or 92 I fell in over my head in a mountain creek wearing denimn jeans, a cotton turtleneck, and Danners, and a pack. I was able to get out after being washed a few yards down, and a buddy to help me out. By the time I got out, scrambled up slope to a level spot (no more than 50 feet) I was NUMB. My fingers "burned" they were so cold, and I was shaking almost uncontrollably. Fortunately, I had a change of clothes in the pack in a dry bag, BUT, if I hadn't, I would not have the coordination to get out my pilots magnesium bar, whittle a pile of shavings, gather tinder, etc. I don't wear cotton except in summer, and I'm more careful, but I practice emergency fire starting too.
 

David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 05:57:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.139.162.32)

Deals on boots RIGHT HERE
Asolo, Raicle(sp?), Merrill, Fabiano, Vasque, Danner. These are the best. At the prices here, you don't need to settle for less. This company is good and the prices are unbeatable. You'll be satisfied.
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 06:43:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.85)

Of course the basics (band-aids, butterflies, triple antibiotic oinment, sutures, pain killers, Ora Gel, gauze, tweezers, moleskin, antacids, pen light, gloves, CPR Mask, Extractor snakebite kit, scalpel, and tape) I have but other suggestions?

A