My summertime activity has me concerned though. Don't know how many of you go tubin down a river in the summer but it's great fun. Here where the summer heat can get up to 115 degrees a day spent on the cool river in an innertube can be great fun, that is if you don't mind thinking about the 175 people since 1975 that have died in the river.

Anyhow, to my little tid bit of knowledge. In the stagnant or calm pools of the river, mostly the places you get in or our if you are unlucky, you find leeches. With me hating needles and anything that sucks blood I found a quick step to removing the blood sucking slugs. Blackhawk and many others carry the waterproof Tabacco Can Keeper, inside I have a little sock that is filled with salt. When you get it moistened the salt is supper high concentrated and when you dab a leech with it, they curl up and let go of you in a hurry. Slugs don't like salt and I guess leeches are no different. If you feel you might be going somewheres where leeches may give you a hassle, carry the salt sock. One thing I thought about though, is there such thing as a salt water leech? I am in fresh water where the little guys don't have much tolerance for salt, but if there is a salt water variety my trick may not prove so helpful.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield, Ca.(the gungrabbing state), USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 19:47:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.218.229)

I love to use these weapons and practice with: long and short swords, shield, spears(as missle and melee weapons),
axes(throwing and melee), throwing knives, and bolt action rifles(7.7jap)(8mmMauser) and I have an M1garand

Adam Miller <brennus7@hotmail.com>
Gainesville, Florida, USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 20:44:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.196.74)

In NZ the force's are used a foldup stove similar to the German type,the solid fuel block's are around 1 1/2" square and 1/2" thick.
As the stove is around 4" squire by 1 1/2",soldier's either chop down a cup's canteen so to slip on to the bottom of a cup's canteen or carry 3 large 6" nail's with big flat head's,just push into ground and throw the fuel block in the centre,these option's are used to save space,so it can fit into their webbing/belt order.
Alot carry 2 cup's canteen's and do all their cooking using them,one for brew's and the other for food,most also have a small teflon frying pan in their pack as well.
On writing in the field,leave all your expensive space pen's at home to impress friend's,carry water proof paper and pencil's cut in half and sharpened at both end's,and a rubber.
You can use the same page up to 3 or more time's,when you have finished with the page and need no longer,dry it(if wet,in NZ it's almost alway's wet)then rub it out.It make's your dear waterproof paper last 3-4 time's longer.
Or if you are real cheap,like me,carry a piece of plastic to write on,using the same as above,plastic never wear's out like your waterproof paper .
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 22:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.206)

Primary set as follows:

Load bearing vest with web belt, butt pack and cold weather extender
- 3) 30 round 223 mags in upper left pockets
- 3) HK 45 mags in upper right inside pocket
- Beef jerkey (I don't like but figure a 4 legged buddy that I want to make friends with might), power bar, honey sticks and Pelican light in upper right outside pocket
- traumedic bandage, automatic center punch and electrical tape in bottom right grenade pocket
- traumedic bandage, bic lighter and camo makeup kit with mirror in left bottom grenade pocket
- Tritium compass in pouch attached to left shoulder strap
- Gerber Mark II (cause I can't afford better right now) on right side
- Leatherman Wave, Swiss army knife and smoke(when I find some good smoke bombs) in a M16 pouch on right side
- Canteen with cup and canteen stove with 2 trioxanes on right rear
- Butt pack with Ranger roll and the following inside
- MRE with heater; 223 and 45 bore snakes with breakfree in a zip lock; 25' 550 cord, BRW survial pouch, another lighter, 12 hour cyalume, 5 cble ties, epi-pen, in a zip lock; 3 power bars, 2 packs gum, water treatment pills, pack of coffee, toilet paper, tums, pepcid AC, chapstick, tylenol in a zip lock; neosporin, bandaids, steristrips, moleskin and vasoline gauze in a ziplock; 50' heavy paracord; spare HTX AA battery pack and cig adapter in a ziplock
- HTX-202 HAM, antenna and earbud/lapel mic in M16 pouch on left rear

Blackhawk Delta VI flapped holster on right side

Medium alice pack with the following:
- space blanket, tobaggin and gloves in flap
- 6 AR mags in M16 poucxes attached left bottom
- 2 empty M16 pouches on top left
- canteen with cup and empty M16 mag pouch on right bottom
- E-tool on top right
- 10 cable ties, hand warmers, signal flare kit, 2 12 hour cyalume sticks, toilet paper, 8 trioxanes and lighter in right outer pocket
- MREe, Datrex rations, extra coffee in middle pocket
- D and A spare batteries, small amfm radio, dc adapter with alligator clips, large angle head flashlight in left pocket
- long johns, socks, drawers, BDU's, 50' black rope with carabiner, PUR Voyager inside pack
 

Secondary setup is close to being finished using a Blackhawk TAC NU and is for an AK 7.62x39. mags will fit the the mag pockets.
 

Third setup is close to being setup and will be for shotgun only:
- Ystraps and belt setup mostly M16 pouches, lots-o-shells
 

Fourth setup will be for Storm Mountain and will be based on using Camo Liquidator Mule, Y straps and web belt.
 

Bug out bag is an Alice large pack with frame and essentially duplicates everything above with the addition of more ammo, food and water, sleeping gear and tent, gurka kukri.
 

Theory - primary set, secondary set and shotgun set is for city problem solving. Can drop patrol pack and keep hauling ass. Bug out bag is for humping and is a monster.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 22:23:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.56.75)

The issue 12" kukri is great, but heavy. Atlanta cutlery sells the officer's model that's 9" for $22 or so. It will do the job real damned fine, and you save much weight and bulk.
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 23:30:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.148)

LOL and its a good thing I keep my Large pack loaded Otherwise I would have forgot a couple things if I was in a hurry. Gloves something important as hell in my country anyhow, Cold as hell in the morning and Cold as hell in the Evening here, even in hte summer if your in any Highcountry at all, So for Gloves I like the wool ones with the flip mittens so you can pull the trigger in a hurry, Also dont think it would be a bad Idea to carry a set of leather gloves for constructing shelter, dealing with barbed wire ect.
Ok for a Saw I always have carried the Wisconson Saw, Has to saw blades one for bone one for wood, I believe them to be 12 inches or so. It breaks down nicley and fits in its own fanny type pack and buckles around the waste It is Flat enough to carry a fanny Pack over it with Zero effect to Comfort. As for a Shovel Im afraid I only have one of those Surplus Shovles with the folding pick on it as well. ( Mulling the glock shovel Idea but know the woman wont go for it).

Wich Brings up a Question, With a Large knife its there in a pinch to cut ect. but then you have the whap sound ect. so Wouldnt it be better to saw instead? Also I have always wonder how you would Dig and minimize the noize. Dig a bit and listen? have your partner at a Distance to watch what?

Steve I was only in one of those tournements (small one mind you) on a bet cause of my Big Mouth, Luckly I wasnt to drunk to back it up LOL. yes they do get into it but they got plenty of padding and armour. When we used to fool around with it before id ever heard of the SCA we didnt have any padding nothing, and many just took boards and carved weopons out of them used clubs ect. needless to say only lasted a couple of months to many Injuries. But I would have to say we learned well cause we got tired of getting hurt or didnt want to get hurt seriously. I used the same Logic in martial arts sparing ect. If your used to wearing padding and protection you will end up getting hurt in a non controled enviroment, Pain is a huge wake up call, and you never want to forget it or you get careless. But I do everything for keeps and keep anything as real as possible so end up not being fun for others.

Ses Partison
 

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 00:14:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.190.169)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 01:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.69)

'Course, you've all pegged how grunts end up dragging SO much stuff along through the bush that really doesn't get touched; however it's taught me how to carry along enough stuff whether it's really comfortable or not...

Not really wanting to make item-by item lists, just will pop off some thoughts on items...

One of the fist things I did was replace my poncho liner with a Patrol Bag from Wiggy's... really small synthetic bag, much warmer, yet packs down almost as small as the poncho liner itself; with it, combined with a bit of personal initiative (that wasn't allowed in the Corps! "No, you can't hooch under a big pile of leaves... we can't find you for your turn at firewatch!") it can substitute for your a bigger sleeping bag, too. I'd combine it w/ a poncho and never would need another type of hooch if you remember: location, location, loaction. Would go w/ something lighter than an issue poncho, though...

Synthetics are great. Even when it's not all that cold, I find I'm a lot more comfortable w/ capiline bottoms on under my BDU trousers. NO cotton t-shirts: just asking for trouble. Use synthetic socks, too. And I live by Danner boots.

I've taken to my Liberty Pack by TNF. It's smaller than an Alice, so it keeps me from carrying too much shit, it can double as a civy-pack since it's not "military"; it's kinda like a baby internal-frame pack. Light, too, and comfortable under load (good adjustments).

I like my MSR International stove... fairly small, you can pick what size fuel bottle you need for your "mission"; I always carry mine when cavin'... Zippo lighter w/ it.... and some proofed matches tucked away just in case.

I also hardly go anywhere w/o my Benchmade mini-AFCK, great all-purpose pocket knife. Strong enough to do almost anything a bigger knife can do, but very handy size.

A good bit of parachute cord is always useful. A roll of trip wire is very handy, too, and small and light.

I like Ka-bars, but opt for my Gerber 9" BMF... a bit more meaty: can dig w/ it, and it won't break like E-tools do (I destroyed 3 e-tools digging fighting holes, each early on in their usage... a branch would be more dependable!) Most of the time it's actually just along for the ride, but when you need it it does whatever you need it to do.

Also like having a SOG Para-tool somewhere w/ me, either on myself or in the pack... they're pretty nifty tools (or Leatherman, or Multi-plier... pick your brand/ features, etc.)

I still haven't coughed up the money to get one, but I've been eyeing Katadyn filters... I like the field-maintainable nature of the element, so you can keep going and going... the normal Pocket-Filter was a bit heavier than other brands, though, back when I was issued one. Therefore, I'm leaning towards their smaller sizes over the weight issue.

Light discipline: I try to do everything w/o any artificial light source, but I always keep a light w/ me for the just-in cases. I really like Petzl, but there are other similar lights out there (something that can go on your head: hands-free is GREAT!) Smaller is better (unless cavin'!)

Although I usually am using a larger Brunton transit as my compass, all you really need is a decent little itty-bitty Silva or some-such other little well-made compass, and a map of your region.

A small yet well-thought-out first aid kit is a must.

If packin' MREs, strip 'em down... no need to carry 4 spoons, 3 accessory packs, and the deyhdrated peaches if you're not going to use it... and, once you've opened it, you can usually repack it smaller after tossing out the junk. Sometimes cans are REALLY useful (improv stoves, etc.), but usually are just too much weight... repack into lighter, smaller containers if it's something that'll survive repacking.

Ammo, sidearm, rifle, etc., as needed.

Oh, and some cash. Can always come in handy.

That's about it for item-specifics.... there's other bits, but most of it is same-'ol same-'ol for all of us....

-L
Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
Between Okalona and Waycross (if you can find them!), TN-VA, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 04:37:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.246)

Bolt's talking some interesting stuff about the HTX-202 HAM. Tell us about it Bolt.

I guess I've used all the mark II's and everything related. They work as weapons in a limited range of applications. They stab almost as well as a Bowie. Period. They don't chop, they don't cut, they don't slice. They are nearly useless as tools. I've actually thrown them away.

The Cold Steel Trail Master Bowie is vastly more usefull. If you want a good, cheap, versitle tool, it's a solid choice. If you want to spend some major $$$, talk to John M. Smith, Jerry Fisk, Jim Crowell (if He'll take your call) and be prepared to talk with some real fine folks and to learn and to wait. You don't get a tool, you get a living thing with a soul.
 
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 04:40:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.41)

Ok and I dont get this altitude stove crap we planning for a trip up everest or what? in that case better Hump the old Oxygen tanks too cause youll be needing some help Breathing.

Oh for Bug repelent eating garlic on a regular basis will Make your body produce a natural Gene to repel insects, Not totally, But helped me not to be the smorgus board for mosquitos I once was.

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 05:14:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.187.120)

Regards the question about the stock on the Winchester Stealth; I called Winchester today about that stock and was told that they are supplied by McMillan.

If you had to choose between a Stealth or a Remington VS SF
which would you prefer?
Doug <atex@gte.net>
Florida, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 05:51:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.96.44.12)

you guys are telling me to leave my baby blue PJ´s at home ????
 

t
T <torsten,erning@t-online.de>
germany - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 06:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.117)

Heres my bug out bag contents. It is alot and heavy, I just want everything I could need in one handy package I could grab going out the door, what I didnt need would be jetisoned. Also, some Items are nice for emergency situations (re earthquakes, etc.) and would be tossed ASAP in a TEOTWAWKI situation.

. Main Pack
A. Small ditty bag
1. Waterproof Matches
2. Toilet paper
3. Bug Repellent (DEET)
4. Sunscreen
5. Strike Force flint lighter
6. Swiss Army Knife
7. Sewing kit w/ dental floss and Glide dental floss
8. Bic lighter
9. Space blanket
10. Plastic signal mirror
11. Water Purifying tablets
12. Roll, Athletic tape
13. Key chain w/ spare keys to house and car, p38 can opener, fingernail clippers, small flint lighter.
14.$200 in small bills and quarters.
 

B. MRE (2)
C. Bandoleer .223, 140 rds
D. Role Duct tape
E. AM/FM/Short wave radio
F. Mini Binoculars
G. Rain poncho
H. Light sticks (4)
I. Small Ditty bag
1. Tommy cooker stove
2. Troxane fuel tabs (7)
3. Candle lantern w/ extra candles (3)

2. Pocket 1

A. Glock Entrenching tool
B. 100' 550 Para cord
C. Nylon rope
D. Zip ties, 12"
E. Extra pair Prescription glasses
 
 
 

3. Pocket 2

A. First aid kit
B. Hand sanitizer
C. Instant heat packs
D. Field dressings (2)
 

4. Pocket 3

A. Water
 

5. Top pocket

A. Triangle bandage
B. Mini Mag light w/ extra AA batteries
C. Light stick holder
D. Bic lighter
E. Folding pocket knife
F. Pain medication (Tylenol)
G. Nomex flight gloves
 

6. Attached outside

A. Gerber small pack Axe
B. Carabiner
C. Alice Clips (2)
D. Poncho liner
E. Emergency D cell Strobe light
F. 1 qt Canteen with cup

7. Web Gear

A. Pistol belt with "Y" harness

1. Flap holster with Beretta 92
2. Double mag pouch for Beretta, 2 magazines
3. Two M16 30 rd mag pouches, 6 magazines
4. Glock knife with root saw
5. Pouch with Waterproof matches, Bic lighter, Compass.
6. Mini Mag light w/ lanyard.

8. Second pack

A. Change of clothes (Pants, shirt, socks, underwear)
B. Boots
C. 2 qt canteen, empty
D. Boonie hat

8. Rifle

A. AR 15 with sling and 30 rd magazine.

9. Kept close at hand

A. Gas mask
B. .223 ammo on clips in Bandoleers
C. 10 loaded 20 rd mags in SKS chest pouch
D. 9mm ammo
E. Empty Para bags.
F. Other rifles, ammo, and supplies.
 

mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 07:11:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.198)

The HTX-202 HAM is a Radio Shack walky-talky in the 2 meter (144 mcs) band. These frequencies are reserved for the Ham radio operators, of which there are some 700,000.
Radios on the ham bands should be avoided in a "Bug out bag", even if you're a ham, for several reasons.
First... you need a license to use them (the test isn't hard), and unlawful use can be expensive. There are a lot of regulations about using them, including identifying who you are every 10 minutes. But this is a minor issue.

The real problem with thee radios is this... a good percentage of the users of these frequencies are skilled "Rabbit hunters"... a phrase meaning they hunt hidden transmitters as a weekend hobby. Many have "DF'ing (direction finding) equipment in their car, or hand held. They are damn good at finding radio trespassers on their frequencies.
On top of that, many towns have units with this equipment, for use in emergencies, like tornadoes, hurricanes, and "civil disobedience".

So you wind up with a radio that, when you need it to talk to your amigos when you want to get lost in the woods... will bring the rabbit hunters, and the town emergency folks, directly to your hide. You might as well leave a trail of bread crumbs.
I've had a "ham license" for 40+ years, and have done rabbit hunting, so I can tell you... you will be busted very fast.
Most of my "armed rabble" friends also have licenses, but none of us have ham radios in our "Go kits".

Constant diet of Garlic...

Keeps skeeters away, and also keeps away the birds (two legged kind)... I'd go with Deet, and camo mesh netting (so the skeeters couldn't see me :)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 12:13:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.35)

It happened here, in my home town, a few years ago when the local liquor store ran out of beer on New Year's Eve. Other than that, its been pretty quiet around here.

I can understand why some Europeans, Isrealis and others might want to consider preparing for immediate evacuation while being armed to the teeth. Afterall, their histories would provide enough justification to do so.

The last time North Americans had to worry about an "invasion force" would have been the War of 1812. So, what the hell are you guys so worked up for, the second comming of Christ and impending armagedon ?

Besides being prepared for natural disasters, why the need to be armed for war ?

Man, I thought this site was about LONG RANGE SHOOTING, not the improbable fantasies of the paranoid.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, just trying to understand where you're coming from on this.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 12:50:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.222.48.30)

My gear list is always subject to change and usually I do something to it every nite. The stuff has be added to, subtracted from and rearranged so much here lately that I can't even remember what it looked like to begin with. I asked the gear question here several months ago and didn't get near this response. 'Lito and I did type together on it a couple of times. The posts I have read here give me alot of new ideas so tonight I will probably tear the shit apart again and go through the same ritual.

On gear and Bugging Out. Remember the Boy Scout Oath, "be prepared", for what, who knows. I have always had something prepared to haul butt out of, or into, a situation. I was an Eagle Scout, vigil member in the OA, lived on the coast for 5 years and live in the state that has had the most damage from hurricanes, tornados and shit of any state in recent memory. I am in a medical disater and hazmat team that, here lately, is on constant standy to travel just about anywhere. I have a daughter in school on the coast that don't know beans about taking care of herself (not my fault!) so I have to be ready to go East when disaster strikes.

Recently, I decided to add communications gear and weaponry other than a Model 19 Smith to the gear. Still cannot carry weapons on Federal disaster callouts though.

Anyway, to answer Jeff's inquiry on why I carry gear or be prepared to encounter the unknown, I have no concrete answer except to say that I still remember the riots here in 68 and 72, 8 hurricanes in the past 2 years, the worst flooding in the history of North Carolina, not to mention the standard bad guys, gangs, skinhead militia types, terrorists and most of all a 70 year old mother. No, I do not think it is likely that the US will be nuked, gassed or invaded any time soon. I do however think that the reasons to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best outweigh the reasons not to.

On carrying and practicing with the gear, I have had the kinks out of my disaster team gear for several years, know what I need and what I don't. It's now just a matter of pulling the weapons and most of the extra food and good to go. On the new LBE and Patrol Pack setup, the first time I had to carry it was hunting last week. If felt heavy but that is because my fat ass is out of shape cause I have to work to jobs and don't have much time for working out here lately.

On the knives, I have planned on selling all my Gerbers and pick up some Rhinaldi Customs. They appear to be quality and have have some good references. Just don't have the cash yet. The kukri I carry is a LTC and it will be replaced with the Rhinaldi when the cash is available.

'Lito, thanks for the heads up on the HAM rabbit hunter situation. The HTX was mainly purchased for listening and learning. Am currently studying for the HAM license but no tests available until next month. Your point about directional antennas is a very good one. I guess I will use it during disaster emergencies only. How about CB? This brings up another point, what do sniper teams use for comm's?

I also agree that this is a long range shooting site but I think that there are alot of subjects that necessarily go with shooting, gear is one of them. What to carry at next years Carlos Match is of prime concern to me at this point.
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 14:35:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

You are lucky to live in such a "civilized" country.

We have the Watts riots in L. A., the Trenton riots, Overton, Miami, Atlanta, 2nd NY city Blackout, the Rodney King riots... and four or five more, whose names slip my over taxed (I.R.S.) brain.

You'se Canadians have a fairly stable population (except for the Indian tribes, and the Frenchies, who are ready to throw some poop in your fans, on their own)...
...we, on the other hand, have a very fractured society, with many groups vying for power, or a bigger share of what they think is "coming to them"... and often, our politicians further divide us into groups, and pit the groups against each other, to hold their power.
If you've followed our government the last 7 years, you've seen an excellent example of this.

Some of our "Poopie hit the fan" incidents have been large enough, that areas the size of a medium town have been burned to the ground, and many innocent bystanders have been killed.
Over 60 people were killed in the Rodney Kink affair, most were innocent store keepers, and bystanders.
In every one of these incidents, the police were NOT intervening, they were ordered to stand back for political reasons.
So no one was protecting the citizens, and when the hoards came with the guns or bottles of gasoline, you were on your own.

Most of our insurance companies do not pay out in cases of "Civil disobedience, or insurrection"... so if you can't protect it, you can loose everything you own (and still owe the debts) in two bad days.

In addition, this country has some serious economic problems just under the surface, and there are many that feel that at some point, the cat is going to get out of the bag, and things may come down like a house of cards.

Pablito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 14:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.35)

CB - forget it... even on the highway, to find gas, or speed traps, it's a looser.

'lito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 14:53:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.35)

Well said Pablito, I only have one thing to ad Im willing to bet Jeff puts on his seat belt on and hes not planning on getting into a wreck eather now is he.

Bolt Im one hundred percent with you, I always have emergancy gear ready, My main Pack is Always loaded. I always have some spare water in the house, food that doesnt require cooking. I also carry in each car extra gloves tire chains,(been known to snow more than once in the summer here) and a fanny pack loaded with the bare essential of gear. food candles flashlight water space blanket knife ect. Also there is always a Gun in the car with plenty of ammo. I think we always assume will be home when shit hits the fan or any natural disaster happens, odds are with the way peoples lives are chances are probably against that.
I also think the Boy Scout organization is one of the best things any kid could go thru and wish it was manditory for all youths. Hell I dont even think it would be bad for adults,, we tend to think of it as something for kids but I still like the basics in the boy scouts manuals and recomend them all the time for people wanting to learn survival.

Mike M I see US cav has your Sniper vest for 150 bucks.

Ses
Partison
 

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 15:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.203)

As to we live in a civilized soceity: Buddy, I have worked the Rodney King Riots, The Thieves after the Oakland Hills Fire, The last Major SF Earth Quake and countless others. If you think anyone is safe you have another thing coming. It is not paranoia it is being smart. I dont go to certain parts of the Bay Area without a weapon, eventhough I am off duty because the averages say thateventually someone will try something. I work in a city with a population of less than 400,000 and a murder rate of about 150-175 per year. I dont call that civilized. Now when something major happens and we cops cant hold the lid down the world around goes nutts. We dont have to worry about this for probably years to come but every time the SF Niners have one the Super Bowl the city has been taken over by loiters. Think about a real excuse in your town. By the way the only businesses in LA danger area of the last riot,that were not destroyed were the ones protected by the owners.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 15:49:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.163)

Ses
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 16:15:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.203)

First Aid - Leave the volumes of trauma dressings, etc at home, you need bandaids, a couple 4x4 pads, a small tube of triple antibiotic ointment (generic brand), two cravats (36" cloth triangle), aspirin or ibuprofin (better than tylenol for field use), broad spectrum oral antibiotic (need a sypathetic doc or you might be able to get from a pet store), tiny suture kit, mole skin, foot powder and tiny scissors.

If you get hurt so bad as to need a trauma dressing, your gonna need surgery...there aint no surgery in a austere environment, so you die..no need to lug around trauma dressings. If your gonna aquire medical skills, priority would be suturing and airway management.

Radios - If you really think you'll need radios, work out a very brief, coded way of communicating which also implies frequent changes of frequencies.. I would avoid transmitting at all costs. Perhaps a scanner would be a better choice.

Field Food. - Pasta is very light, full of carbs and can be cooked and stored in a ziplock for use over an extended op. Multivitamins can fill in gaps in your long term nuturition.

Water - to the guy that suggested not worrying about water purification....read your history books....way too many men have died in the field for us to screw this one up...you need to protect your water source, one slip up and your baggage that has to be taken care of and moves slow. You also will require much more water to get better as your bowels will be spewing water out the back end faster than you can put it in.

Carrying gear - the assumption on everyones gear list seems to be that you'll be moving far from your point of origin. I personally would not move from someplace familiar to a place that's unfamiliar. I would cache equipment someplace that I could return to periodically, and only carry what I needed from day to day. If you have to leave, at least you could consume as much of your cache as possible prior to leaving, wheras if you leave everything but the essentials in your "home-base", what will you do if it is no longer accessable.

Like Bolt, I'm a SAR team member and have learned lessons about austere environs the hard way. There most definitely are differences between what a rescue/medic has to deal with at a natural disaster and what a military type operator will encounter in hostile ground, so I share what I know, explain where I learned it and hope that it's useful.

Regards
Jim
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 16:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

We *need* it, because we can have it. Same goes for why we own all these four wheel drive vehicles, own more guns than the local National Guard units, have cars that will do 130, with a speed limit of 65. We need it because, well, we just do!

Quick note on knives: If you are into commercial flights carrying one [check the laws:)], look at the Mad Dog Tactical ceramic / poly knives. Expensive, but way neat. Oh, the Glock entrenching tool will also make it through most metal detectors...in case you get the urge to do some gardening as soon as you land:) For good strong do anything "fighter" knives, check out the REKAT Hobbitt line. Also highly recommend you look to a neck knife, which is worn in a kydex sheath on either paracord or a chain around your neck. Slip a shirt on over it...always handy and out of the way.

On use of a staff [bo]. Nothing exotic to learning this...just don't swing it like a bat. Grasp in center, with hands a foot or so apart, use side to side or up and down. Also great to use as you would hold a pool cue...as a jabbing device to create distance...very hard for the opponent to catch it this way. Outside of a gun, perhaps the best device when properly used to save you from a dog. btdt.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
feral, dog, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 16:54:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

To Each his Own
Partison

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 17:19:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.191.231)

old dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 18:11:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Jeff: Self reliance. Not paranoia, just common sense. In my part of the country (Mormon) everyone is supposed to have 7 years food and water stored at all times. That make them kooks?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 18:36:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

A good Bowie or Arkansas camp knife will do all that and the Bowie is a vastly better weapon.

A Cold-Steel Kukri with a Gerber E-Z out folder would be good enough. You can get them both from Midsouth Shooter's Supply for a total of under $80. The catalog in my lap lists the Trailmaster Bowie at $135. That's a good deal.

Danners are excellent. I own three pairs and have worn out three others. My two objections to the very fine Ft Lewis is that the welt is so broad that carefull (read: Quiet) foot placement in uneven (Rocky-Mountain) terrain isn't easy. And mine squeak. Buy them big and non-insulated. Wear extra socks and change them when wet. Replacable insulation is usually best. They lace almost to the toe so you can ajust the size down in warm weather.

Asolo makes boots that are worth checking out. They are my first choice.

Water purification is cheap insurance against nasty, nasty problems. Halizone and Iodine take up almost no room, weigh nothing and are cheap-cheap. Not good long term. For that use something else.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 18:39:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.35)

Bravo if I remember right the Geardia never actually leaves your body.
I know my Dad had it bad and every couple of years hell spend about three days enjoying the company of the tidybowl family. I was fortuante to as you say only have a small amount of it.

CDC best winter boots I have found thus far is the Mickey Mouse boots, there not the most comfortable thing in the world and yes they look like shit. But all take that over cold feat any day of the week. plus you can still get a pair for around 50$ and your completly right on extra socks extremely Important.

And damn it I need to get a winter job so Im not checking this Roster every half hour.

Partison

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 19:08:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.190.84)

Well, I'm from California, the land of earthquakes and firestorms. (Not to mention riots, like the Rodney King "uprising".) Saw people in downtown business districts patrolling their storefronts with slung shotguns after the '89 quake, when the roads were broken, phones were down, and cops had better things to do. I did volunteer work with the CDF when the Oakaland hills went up in flames, and entire neighborhoods were turned to cinders in minutes. My house was just outside an area that was evacuated when a tank car in an oil refinery emitted a sulfuric acid cloud that affected half of Richmond. Other places have hurricanes, tornados, floods, blizards, etc. Some of these you can see coming, others you can't. The earth is a dangerous place to live.

I was in a resturaunt one time when the construction crew across the street hit a gas main. Sounded like a jet plane that wanted to take off but couldn't. No problem cutting my meal short, but if I'd been living there, my cats and I would have had to live off of what I could carry out in the next 30 seconds until they'd fixed it.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 21:40:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.22.22.2)

I've got two pairs of Danners (1pr Ft Lewis, 1pr 10" assault boot) that have over 20 years between them that I wouldn't trade for shit. I had the assault boots resoled recently and it appears that the goretex inner boot has lost integrity. Not bad for a 12 year old pair of boots though. I do like the boots that use codura instead of leather as I find that they dry out faster and are lighter and tougher than the leather.

I did see a picture from the recent Seattle festivities of a cop with his Danner firmly planted on the side of the face of a protester. Nothing like a Vibram facial!! Love it.

Out here.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 22:52:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.155)

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 23:14:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.190.122)

Just thought I'd let ya know my Rem. 721-based H-S Precision rifle is finished, it's a helluva looker. Shot very well for a sporter weight rifle, .094" 3 shot group @100yds. 180 gr Sierra Matchking, 70 gr IMR 4350, average velocity was 2922fps. I'm happy with it!! I gotta go out and see if I can bag the trophy skinhead tomorrow. I'll have to take her out to 200 yds for zero, but we zeroed at 1.6" high at the 100 yd mark downstairs in the dungeon, so it should be pretty close, I'd think.

Take it easy

JR <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 23:39:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.83.208.193)

Old Dog: Holy Cow...how did you know that your wife put me up to posting about the need for a "bug out bag"? She must have fessed up to you and admitted to it. Right?

'lito:Canadians civilized? ...How dare you even suggest such a thing. I'm highly insulted. Have you ever watched a hockey game? Hey, we stake our national pride on the outcome of the fights, not the game.

I come from a country where Y2K means, "Your 2 Knees", not "Yeat two thousand".

I wasn't trying to say a man shouldn't protect his life or property. I was asking about a "bug out bag".I'm not against taking reasonable precautions to ensure that a person has enough vital necessities to get them through traumatic situations.

However, what concerns me are the fruitcakes walking the streets that simply use the fear of unrest as an excuse to arm themselves to the balls with firearms.

Sure, every gun club has at least one, or more of these guys.They seem to pop up at most of the gun shows too. I swear to God some of these guys are wishing that something would happen, so that they had the opportunity to show what manly men they really are.

That's why I find a little bit of this "bug out bag" stuff a little hard to swallow.

As far as "survival" is concerend, basic items are necessities.However, I'm personally convinced that all the gear in the world won't save your sorry ass if you haven't got the mentality to deal with the situation at hand.

Bravo, Bolt,Grasshopper,'lito and Mike M...thanks for sharing your insights.

Bravo, no, not kooks.Perhaps,just crazy.You're right about self reliance though. I certainly wouldn't want to depend on others to maintain survival.
 
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada...home of the world's best tasting beaver - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 23:51:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.222.48.30)

If you have two feet that are the same length consider yourself lucky. Right foot is a 12 1/2 and left foot is a 12. The only boots that I can get to fit are Rockys. On the sock thing, this year I started using the Dupont Thermstat sock liners under Thuralo socks. No sweatty feets no more, dry as a bone and now they stay warmer cause they aren't wet.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, December 04, 1999 at 23:58:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.146.240)

I represent that remark. Hockey fights... pussy!! Down here, south of the border (the Canadian border)... if the wrong team wins, they burn the God damn town down... if the right team wins, they burn the God damn town down!!

"However, what concerns me are the fruitcakes walking the streets that simply use the fear of unrest as an excuse to arm themselves to the balls with firearms."

I can't speak for your side of the line, but in the US, the states with no carry restrictions, have the least problems, in spite of the fact that they have poverty, inner-cities etc. If there are the "fruitcakes" that you suggest (a rather poor stereotype), they are aware that everybody else is armed, and get manors real fast!!

"I swear to God some of these guys are wishing that something would happen, so that they had the opportunity to show what manly men they really are."

I think that you're reading too much literature from the anti-gun groups... this is their favorite mantra... "We MUST keep the guns out of the hands of the fruitcakes"... but the experience in the US, is just the opposite. there is a famous saying (that everybody out there but me knows who said)... "An armed society is a polite society".
The "Armed Fruitcake" is only a "real bad man" in a town where no one else owns a gun. In a "concealed carry" state, he doesn't know who has, or how good they are, and these guys never surface.

Partison...

Unless your TV is a lot different than mine... what I saw wasn't "the citizen's voice" being suppressed by the mean ol' government... it was an out of control mob that was smashing, burning and looting... and a lot of civil disorder. the kind of thing that can escalate real fast, if not brought into check.

When I was young (a Looooong time ago), we used to hear people say, "I don't like what you say, but I'll fight for your right to say it"...

You don't hear that too much any more. The First Amendment guarantees the right to speak, and assemble... not the right to smash, burn, loot, and destroy.
What is going on in Seattle is not the expression of free speech... it is the petulant, childish behavior of the left, because they can't have things the way they want them.

Remind anyone of the 60's???

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 00:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.16)

Partison
 

Paritson <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 00:53:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.187.112)

Robert J. Heinlin. Might check the spelling.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 01:39:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.68)

Also, consider replacing that ultimate of backpacking sins-the E-tool! Of course this doesn't apply if you're required to carry it, or if you really might have to dig a fighting position, but otherwise a GARDEN TROWEL will suffice for field hygiene and campfire purposes.

Boots: Amen on Danners, including Fort Lewis'. Have checked on (and off 12 hours later, warm and dry) MANY times in mine, in rain, snow, and ice. Matterhorn makes a good copy (unless some of you know of bad instances with them.) My current pair are Matterhorns. So far, so good. Hi-Tecs deserve honorable mention for comfort, but not near as rugged (I go through 3 Hi-Tecs to every 1 Danner)

Bicycles: GENERALLY speaking, although most have low, middle, and high line bikes, try to go with Cannondale, Trek, GT, Mongoose, Raleigh, Klein, some Shwinn (sp?) and I'm probably forgetting some. Dont get a steel frame. Chrome-Moly lighter and can still be welded in a pinch. Aluminum and Carbon Fiber better yet, but you may be SOL IF it tears up (not likely during reasonable use) during hard times.
Buy a book or take a course on repair, and have spare parts available, as well as spare tubes.

God I like it when you guys talk about something I have knowledge on...
 

David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 02:14:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.79.88.226)

Heheh. I said, alot of stuff, but I have used or needed every item in one situation or the other.

And to our canadian friend, the last time I needed a Bug out Bag was during the Northridge Earthquake (1993?) when I was standing outside in the 40 degree temp at 4:30 AM in the dark in my boxers with shards of glass in my feet cause I had to book out of my colapsing house. Had my bags been where they are now, I would of been set with everyting I needed, including keys to my truck which I had to search for in the rubble afterwards. I'm not a "fruitcake" or a gunshop commando or an end of the world zelot. I am simply prepared, to the best of my ability, for situation I know I will be in sooner or later.
Where I live, Los Angeles, it is a volitile situation every day. It just takes a Rodney King or police beating to set the heathen masses off into a frenzy. Sooner or later I will be in the middle of it, and need to be prepared for it. If that sounds hard to swallow, you don't live in my reality.
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 03:08:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.145)

First....
Going to start practicing firing from prone with bidpod this weekend. Don't have any moving targets so I'm going to set up 3 in a row several feet apart and shoot from one to the other while moving the rifle. Now, it appears to me that the bipod legs are going to catch on the grass and rocks and stuff and not want to move smoothly (tried it on the carpet just now). How do you overcome this?

Second.....
I have noticed that the folks wearing ghillie suits do not appear to be carrying anything such as web gear and stuff. Since the ghillie suits are made to slide across the gound without catching, how do you carry your gear without catching?

Third.....
Do you camo or blacken your cartridges to keep from shining?

Fourth.....
Sure would be nice to have a video on how to make a ghillie. Gooch, this may be something for you guys at SMTC want to think about. Would gladly pay for a good tape.

And finally to Jeff B.
All the gear in the world may not save your ass if you don't have the mindset, but I will guarantee you if you have the mindset and not the gear you can bend over and kiss you ass goodbye because the other guy does. Bugging out and bug out bags mean many things to many people. Pregnant women have bug out bags for the hospital with all their delivery stuff in them. Business people have suitcases packed in their offices just in case they have to travel. People that live in environmentally unstable areas of the country such as those on the coast or those that live on fault lines or those in very cold climates subject to being caught in a blizzard on the road have emergency kits. They can be cardboard boxes, leather suitcases, or what ever.
I will admit that until recently, I only carried the basics in the Blaze. Awareness of past and current natural and manmade events has prompted me to go a little overboard, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Several months ago I ran across a site called the Alpha Survival Group. These are just good people, not militia or militant, that know a hell of a lot about how to get along in the world when the world doesn't cooperate. I have learned more about surviving any situation that I could think of from those people than I could have
read in a hundred books. They help, they answer my stupid questions and do it without judgement.
The gear that I carry is carried not for Y2K specifically, it is carried to get my ass out of any bind that I find myself or my family in. Survival is a mindset in itself. Ask those poor bastards caught in the massive traffic jambs during hurricane Floyd what they had to survive with and more than likely they would have looked at you like a doe in headlights. Ask those people that get caught in snow bank on the highway if they could live for a day or two without rescue, problem is you would have to ask them postumously.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 03:30:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.191.171)

Knives: One in pocket of BDU,jeans, whatever, one on belt, and one in/on pack. Normally I have a Cold Steel Scimitar in my pocket, a Leatherman Wave on belt and a Cold Steel Trail Master on my gear. Also have one of the 1st Cold Steel ATC (The thick one) in my truck and a Recon Tanto in my Gregory mtn ruck.That's not including my Cold Steel Outdoorsman and mini-Outdoorsman in my hunting bag. Also have 2 magnesium sticks, 1 in 1st aid bag and the other at the bottom of the Gregory.

Speaking as a former medic that spent a lot of time in the boonies (here & elsewhere)... Purification tablets GOTTA HAVE THEM !!! The "Katadyn" filter is great but pricey.

BUG OUT ?? WHERE ?? So you need to leave your AO. What makes you think you'll be welcome in mine ? If you haven't already been planning for years (As some have, maybe even me)then where are you going to go, and be welcome. I live 120 miles from a major city and not that far from the interstate, I have another large city not quite as far in the opposite direction and still another in another direction !! Talk about "stuck between a rock and a hard place"!! Not quite, I'll just stay where I am (or close to it)and stand fast. My Mormon friends from years gone by told me about having foodstuff and provisions for ONE YEAR...made sense to me.

Last but not least...What about spare parts for your weapons ?? Firing pins, springs, etc...Does anyone else rotate their ammunition and if so...what do you propose as shelf life of you reloads ??
Geez, did I get on a roll or what ??
Out Here !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
Still Slapping 'quitos, The South, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 03:43:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.131.198)

What you do with your gear is your own business. I was just trying to get some questions answered, like you often do. Friend, go back and re-read my last post, I think you'll see that we are in agreement about preparing for the situations that you have described.

I've learned a lot from this discussion. Some of it makes a lot of sense to me. It has reminded me that I don't have even basic kit in my vehicle in case of roadside emergencies and the like. I'd best get my ass into high gear and box up a few items together!

Mike S: Man, I didn't call you a fruitcake. You're right, I don't live in your reality. Thank God, for me. I wouldn't want to go through riots either.

'lito: whether you want to admit it or not, or even agree with me, you can't tell me that some of the more extremist individuals out there are not a legitimate cause for concern. They give all of us main stream guys a black eye.

Unfortunately, you don't have to go to far to hear someone claiming that the sky is falling. That's just tellin' it like it is. All's I'm saying is that I personally have more fear of them doing something stupid than some of the more rationally minded individuals out there. In my books, some of these guys are fruitcakes.

I'd be willing to bet that your assertions are correct regarding lower crime levels in areas where concealed carry is permitted. I wouldn't debate that one at all.

As far as hockey is concerned, you're not too far off from the truth. When the Montreal Canadiennes (en fracais, sil vous plait) last won the Stanley Cup in '93, the fans took the partying to the streets. A few drunk assholes ruined it for everyone by looting businesses, burning buildings, and rolling over some police cars. They didn't quite burn down the town, but I'm sure they could have had they actually wanted to.

Have a good night everyone...
 
 
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympaatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada...Home of the World's best tasting beaver - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 04:31:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.89.64)

For sparks, consider the small zipper pull sized "Hot Spark" (available from Boy Scout Eq. dealers,) a Gerber Strike Force, or the daddy rabbit for speed and efficency, the Blast Match, available from some backpacking stores. It's like a Strike Force, but quicker into operation and maybe more sparks. (I SWEAR I don't get nothing from these companies...) Or carry a lighter or waterproof matches. Be redundant here, though.

The absolute quickest is an M49 Flare with all the trip hardware removed, if you're able to come into one of these little jewels. I've seen a waterlogged pile of firewood burn all night after a tripflare was tossed in. DON"T LOOK AT IT!

BTW, I've BTDT on this issue. I'm humbly silent to you guys on most sniper subjects, but I am an avid winter wilderness hiker, and in winter 91 or 92 I fell in over my head in a mountain creek wearing denimn jeans, a cotton turtleneck, and Danners, and a pack. I was able to get out after being washed a few yards down, and a buddy to help me out. By the time I got out, scrambled up slope to a level spot (no more than 50 feet) I was NUMB. My fingers "burned" they were so cold, and I was shaking almost uncontrollably. Fortunately, I had a change of clothes in the pack in a dry bag, BUT, if I hadn't, I would not have the coordination to get out my pilots magnesium bar, whittle a pile of shavings, gather tinder, etc. I don't wear cotton except in summer, and I'm more careful, but I practice emergency fire starting too.
 

David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 05:57:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.139.162.32)

Deals on boots RIGHT HERE
Asolo, Raicle(sp?), Merrill, Fabiano, Vasque, Danner. These are the best. At the prices here, you don't need to settle for less. This company is good and the prices are unbeatable. You'll be satisfied.
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 06:43:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.85)

Of course the basics (band-aids, butterflies, triple antibiotic oinment, sutures, pain killers, Ora Gel, gauze, tweezers, moleskin, antacids, pen light, gloves, CPR Mask, Extractor snakebite kit, scalpel, and tape) I have but other suggestions?

Any SF medics have any suggestions for supplies going into third world remote villages on medical mission trips?

Reply on site or off line. Thanks in advance.
David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 09:15:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.13.141)

Size of team? Anticipated mission duration? Mission nature, ie. have to move fast and light, etc? In and out of country? Do you have a true medic on the team? If not, are any of the team EMT's? Resupply and med-evac capabilities?

Would suggest that anyone that is on or responsible for a team of people have at least one trained EMT with special studies in battlefield trauma. All members should be trained in CPR. There are several good books that the military has on the subject. Remember, keep it simple. You cannot expect to carry an ICU on your back and chances are, you won't have time to do advanced treatment on a mission anyway. Just remember, ABC's, take care of massive bleeding, pain med's and IV's if you have them, package them up and haul ass.

Don't forget, don't drink the water without treating, don't eat anything that anyone gives you, don't eat anything that isn't living when you kill it, or growing when you pick it. Bad water will completely disable you and if not treated you will become room temp. Get a SAS or military Survival book FM21 for reference. Another good book is the 'Field Guide to Wilderness Medicine' by Auerbach.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 13:46:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.147.46)

They sell overstocks, seconds and discontinued stuff. I'll take a discontinued Fabiano or Danner any day.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 15:14:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.41)

Am I fan of the WTO? Fuck no. I think it sucks. I think it is a threat to our Consitution. But at this stage we in the US of A handle issues like this at the ballot box. However, "When in the course of human events" there is a time for civil disobedience or revolution but this wans't it.

I think the protesters hurt thier cause more than helped it. Its not too often you get organizations like the Sierra Club, Earth First and the United Steel Workers Union on the same podium. Talk about some organizations that could have planned a peaceful protest. Give me a break, this was planned. Ever seen a West Virginia coal mine strike? The big unions have this shit down as do the Enviromentalists.

This protest, like a lot of others, was full of agitators that had no desire to peacably voice thier concerns. All some of these jerks wanted to do was practice a little civil disobedience. FM 19-15, Civil Disturbance says, "Agitators want to provoke the control force into overreacting. This embarrases authorities. It can also gain MEDIA and PUBLIC sympathy for the protesters." Same MO that terrorists use.

Worked huh?

Yes I do love it when I see lawless rabble get their ass handed to them by the people we pay to protect us from these jerks. I'm sure around the end of this month we will see plenty more. I hope they all get mouthfuls of pepper spray, heads stomped and asses kicked. Its the innocent people that really pay when civil disturbances break out. They have to be protected, not the asshole that is breaking in thier windows.

OUT!
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 15:51:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.160)

LinkToGoodCheapGear

Partison:

There's no real arguing with Gooch on this one. The left has had this crap down to a science since the Paris Commune in the 1840s. The intimidation and propaganda tactics Gooch describes are well documented in "War In The Shadows: The Guerilla In History", by Robert Asprey. Great bibliography. Good place to begin serious research.
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 19:36:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.7)

First I will say I have zero use probably for any of the people in the riots, and everyone in here already know how I feel about cops so I wont hammer them eather.
No I do not whatsoever support any violent activity twords innocent people, that goes for looters and vandals and goes twords cops beating the living piss out of some guy. Now I wasnt there so makes for a hard argument. But I have been union both in the laborers Union and the Carpenters Union. They left me out to dry just like millions of other unions workers, So I have zero use for any Money intrest Group. True the Unions organized it but you have good honest working people frustrated with a government that doesnt give a sorry ass about the average joe anymore. They did what they had the right to do Assemble peacefully, Now on the other hand you had Riot control, dont give me any of the shit they werent looking for the brawl both sides probably do, Any time you dress for it you want it. and to stop a fight do you ring the bell? hell no only makes things worse. so the cops Did there thing, protestors reacted in different ways. Angry hell yea anyone shot tear gas in my face or wapped my ass with a club when I was excersising my constitutional right Id have been pissed too.
TO say they had to imidiatly control the situation before it gets out of control is like saying every person should be searched for drugs incase they decide someday to deal. Plenty of protests out there that dont get vilent, why becouse both sides control themselves.
in this case seattle was under pressure to basically vanquish the crowds for our hero Klinton.
and hell I dont even care if someone is breaking the law that does not give a cop the right to beat the living snot out of them they are not judge jury and executioner. And dont give me that shit about there trying to control someone, you dont have to beat the living piss out of anyone with a batan to control them, one simple hit to a key area is enough, and as far as I know every cadet learns that.
And yes I do know what Im talking about when it comes to Submission I am a First Degree master In Kung FU and have competed in submission. Now if when I get into a street fight do I always go for the easiest win, hell no I want to punish them. Want to show them whos boss, same as the majority of the cops out there when there arresting someone. Difference is I am not working for the Public, Nor am I beating the snot out of someone I suspect of anything, as remember we are all inocent untell Proven Guilty.
Now the most Ironic thing about this, out of the forty Thousand people out there you probably only would find less than a tenth that didnt support klinton in his impeachment.

Now IM just saying the same thing I said before, theres always going to be bad People on Both sides of the Law, and the Bad ones should be taken out Period. And that does not mean every innocent shcmuck inbetween.

One more thing for the road,
Wonder what would happen if say a cop was Tresspassing and running his mouth on someones lawn Maybe decided to bust out a window and the Owner and a couple of buddies decided to take bats to his ass while making a citizens arrest.

Now maybe I am wrong, But thats the way I see it.

Ses
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 20:56:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.185.202)

partners.nytimes.com/library/world/global/120399wto-anarchists.html

This is an article regarding one of the groups that went to Seattle with the intent to raise hell.

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 22:06:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.171)

A couple comments on the gear selection ritual in general. A packing list should be an integral part of any good mission analysis. It's something that should be reaccessed before each "operation" and tailored to achieve your mission essential tasks as well as the terrain and weather in which you will be operating. A good practice is to compartmentalize your gear by its use and develope SOPs for different types of operations and environments. Another good practice, if you are working as a member of a team, (e.g. sniper/spotter or hunting buddies)is to develope team SOPs regarding where key items will be stowed. If your partner is injured and you need his field dressing you don't want to be hunting through his rucksack in the dark to find it.

One last unrelated question for the ballistics experts. What effect if any will a strong 12 to 6 wind/heavy rain have on a bullet's trajectory, especially at or near max. effective range?

PJ
Paul J. Martoccia <pmartoc@sprynet.com>
NJ, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 22:21:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.205.163.4)

My qualifications?? I have helped in the design of several water treatment plants and am a civil engineer. (I am usually polite, too). While I don't even pretend to be a sniper or a good long range shooter, I do know something about water.

If you are stuck in the boonies without resupply, a reasonable attempt to filter the water can be done by using a 1-2 tall sand column. Use a coarse sand for best results. This will remove many, but not all of the bugs and is better than drinking directly fron the source.

If you do want to drink from the stream, go ahead, but be aware of the consequences. Be sure to pack plenty of TP and carry your medicines with you.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 23:15:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

partners.nytimes.com/library/world/global/120399wto-anarchists.html

... doesn't get me anywhere... you got a better address??

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 00:15:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.132)

Partison......
The mostest bestest sensei I ever trained under (in my younger years of course) told me that if I was close enough to a bad guy to grab him I was too damn close. A little 4'10" black belt gal, damn good looking to say the least, proved it to me one night. Grappling not good, breaking grappling techniques good. Crowbar much better. How many street fights have you been in? Would be interested in some stories and tips!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 00:17:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.191.130)

Try this: RIGHT HERE

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 01:02:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.10)

Ses
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 01:59:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.133)

How about some help here from you guys in the know....

I've got a few good loads worked up for my TRG-21, but I want to expand my horizons and see what else works. I've been using IMR4895, IMR 4064, and alittle Varget. All working well at 600m, but an associate of mine suggested some RL-15 worked behind a 175/180/185gr projectile will tighten the group up considerably. Anyone else had any experience with it? RL-12?? I'm using Lapua brass, GM210M primers, along with the obvious case prep steps (primer pocket, flash hole deburring, trim to length, neck turn, etc.).
Also, is there a good source for Lapua bullets here in the states?

Steering me in the right direction is greatly appreciated folks!

Thanks a million.
Cheers,
Mike
 
 

Mike A. <moamike@ix.netcom.com>
Whattayasay?, Washington, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 03:32:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.31.44.58)

Steve, that is a very tough choke to get, usually. Most people, unfamiliar with being in the guard try to put their hands on your stomach and push away...armbars finish most fights from that position. The second reaction is for the guy to just punch from that position, in which case you hug him from the bottom, slip under an arm and work your way to the guy's back...wrap the neck / throat with an arm, looking to get the inside bend of your elbow on the adam's apple, the hand of that arm in the bend of your other, clamp down...he will stop fighting.

If you have a desire to train to fight, call Jack McVicker 812-460-0958. He is the best, imho, and also competes for Megaton Diaz in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which is what has been talked about here.

Sorry for the off topic guys, it must be later than I think.
 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 04:44:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.15.58)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 05:25:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.129)

jeff cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
Memphis, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 06:19:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.84)

I'm looking to get a spotting scope, I'd like to get my hands on a
Leupold 12-40x60 but the best deal I can find is 656$ new. I read the short review you fellas had on it, and whoever wrote it apparently purchased theirs for 550$. It would be appreiciated if anyone could tell where I could get one at this price.

Casey <caseyb@scs.unr.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 07:01:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.152.153)

First off, I am not in the military and am not a sniper. I have, however spent a significant ammount of time in the woods. From what I have read, it seems to me that many of you are packing entirely too much gear. Many will argue that one needs to be prepared for anything. I totally agree with this concept, but translate it diferently than most. I feel that gear does little as far as being prepared. Prepared is being able to mentally overcome diversity. There are countless cases of indaviduals surviving in environments were they were likely not to simply due to their ability to think through problems and maintain a cool head. Likewise, there are many cases of people packing enough gear around to set up a trading post that die when faced with a problem.

This said, there are a few essential pieces of equiptment that one shoulld have. I cannot stress enough the importance of atleast one good knife. A good bowie knife is invaluable and can handle anything from choping to digging. Next is clothing that is appropriate for the conditions. This means NO coton. Coton is next to useless when wet and takes forever to dry out. I strongly recomend polyester and other synthetics (be advised, keep poly away from high heat, it WILL melt). I have spent many days on end in the woods with nothing but my bowie, the clothes I was wearing, some emergency rations and a canteen or two. Other gear to be considered includes: entrenching tool, cord, compass, tent, sleeping bag, watch, flashlight, stove, bug juice, med kit (SMALL!!!), duct or electrical tape, mirror, toilet paper, water purification tablets/filter, etc. in addition to this I pack a few 'in case items' including an extra boot lace (one could be made out of cord, but awkword), cash, garbage bag, alice clips, etc.

I must also note that the ideal equiptment is reletive to the indavidual. Some people like to carry more 'Luxury items', others carry only the essentials. It is a balance that one must find themselves. A good way to find the desired balance BEFORE entering the woods is to lay out all the gear that you plan on taking. Then mentally list all the requirements, conditions and possable problems/obsticles for the trip. Then think about what gear you will need to deal with and meet these requirements. Then finally look at each piece of gear indavidually and classify items in three catagories: essentials, would be nice/helpfull and luxuries. IE. do I really need a 'flashlight'?, what happends if my 'flashlight' dies, have I had problems with this 'flashlight' before? Then try to reduce your inventory from there. DO NOT decide to only pack the essentials if you are used to packing luxuries. This often leads to aggrevation and dificulty. If you decide to reduce your packing inventory do it gradually.

Like I said, I'm not in the military so I will not comment on firearms.

Hope this helps.
 
 
 

Ryan <BFG9001@hotmail.com>
Penticton, British Columbia, Canada - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 08:33:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.64.223.149)

Any comments appreciated
Tim O'Hare <osceolapd1@cji.net>
osceola, wi, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 09:56:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 150.208.112.181)

Where you been, you Booger... good to see you back! I took your advice, and found a 600/1000 yard range within 2 hours drive, and no body uses it. It's part of a de-milled SAC base, that's now "general aviation" and I have a key to it 24/7!!... Thanks for the tip!

On hand to hand, and knife fighting...
Took a course with Jon Farnam (a great instructor), on "Urban Combat"... and his advice was:

"When it is really serious, in a fist or knife fight, bring a pistol... mebbe' two.
In a pistol fight, bring a shotgun, mebbe' a rifle, if you can see the bastard far enough back".
Works for me!!

Tim...
The 6.5-284 can be put in a short action, but it is best in a long action, allowing the bullets to be seated so thay don't fill half the case. Consider the 260 Rem for the short action... there are several on this site that have used it, and they can give you the skinny.

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 13:54:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.64)

A local gentleman who is quite well off financially opened up a franchised Gracie Barbarra (sp?) Ju Jitsu dojo (or what ever its called) in my little old town.

Well, I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to attend a few classes when Carlos Gracie Jr. and and another trainor were flew in from Brazil to stay for about 2 months. These guys could haardly speak a word of English, so they were fairly hard to understand.

The other trainor was only 20 yrs. old and held a 2nd. degree black belt and was in training for the Pan Am Ju Jitsu Championship. Anyway,
I had an opportunity to watch him spar off with a local 4th degree black belt, who trained in Okinawan Ju Jitsu. The Brazillian wiped the floor with our local boy's ass. Very entertaining to watch.

Believe me... I don't know much about Ju Jitsu, but here aare aa few things I can remember from my classes.

It was explained to me by the Brazilians that the best thing to do in a street fight is for you to set back on the defensive tying your opponent up and let him expend all his energy while being agressive. With your opponent out of energy, you can then take advantage of the situation and try to end the fight.

Even if you are in a guys gaurd it's very easy to ware him down by positioning your body to push down on his lungs. If your opponent is in your guard you can wrap your legs very tightly and put pressure on the rib cage.That is if you hve fairly strong legs.Just remember... if a man can't breathe, he can't fight.

Even your opponets clothes can be used against him very effectively. It's much easier to choke guy out with his own shirt/jacket collar than with your own bare hands.

Anyway, this is starting to get way off topic.
 

Jeff Babineau <j.bbineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada...Home of the World's best tasting beaver. - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 14:43:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.97.81)

As for styles a good fighter will be a good fighter no matter what and will be able to adapt in the middle of a fight, wich is what its all about.

Anyhow Submission has its place and Striking has its place and only thru alot of training and alot of practice will anyone learn how to properly apply eather of them. And I dont care what anyone says to negate eather of fighting on your feet or fighting on the ground is to only prepare for disaster.

You look at any Champion be it the Gracies in Submission, A boxer, Runner, shooter name it any athelete that became great, its becouse he trained ten times harder than the guy he competed against and took it totally serious.

Ses
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 15:30:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.190.168)

Bruce Lee is still to date the only person that had his shit together on the reality of street fighting. Anyone wanting to learn or wanting to better there skills should read and practice seriously anything he wrote or said.
 

Ok thats it for the martial arts posts from me. anyone wanting to discuss or exchange techniques feel free to E-mail me.

Partison

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 15:39:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.190.168)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 16:41:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Mike A: you can find Lapua bullets at Champions Choice Shooters Supply, in La Vernge Tenn. Very nice people and been in business for many years. Ran by some real shooters. I have been shooting the 175 Sierras and they out shoot most anything in 308 Win. I love IMR4064 but many folks swear by Varget. I will give it a go as soon as I shoot through my life time supply of 4064. I have had great luck with Remington standard primers.

Equipment list: It is good to hear others ideas on this. This is how we all improve. I learned a great trick from the marines at the Hathcock Match. When standing take a piece of para cord and make a loop, put your rifle through it and hold the loop to a stationary objet. Makes for a steady shooting platform.
 

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 18:41:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.34)

So BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP and grow up
Partison

My apologies to the staff of sniper country for this post
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula , Mt., USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 19:22:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.185.251)

t
torsten <infantrie@hotmail.com>
germany - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 20:45:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.119)

O.K. ...Break and go back to your corners !!
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada... Home of the World's best tasting beaver. - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 21:12:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.80.87)

Lighten up man... you're making nasty into an art form.

We can disagree, and still share ideas, but you go around calling guys "p***k" and it gets to the point of no return.
Also remember this... This is not your sandbox... it's shared by many, including women, and people from the industry that make the toys we use.

I know that there is one woman that works for Leupold in customer relations, that reads this site with fair regularity, to hear what "we" think about their products.
You wanna' show her how cool we are??

This speciality has enough problems with public image, we don't need your help pullin' it down any further

You're not in some cruddy bar in east L.A., you're yelling to the whole world, and there are some 1000-2000 people that check in here every day, reading your words of pure poetry.
If you have to get ugly, go direct e-mail, don't make the whole world see how childish you are.

As for Mike being a "bad cop"... you need to meet the people that you're talkin' about, before you go around passing judgements. I've shot with him and against him, and he's nothing but 200 pounds of teddy bear. The last thing he wants to do, is push someone around.

Take a look at what you're doing... "Dig your self"
-------------------------------------------------------

Have we stopped shooting long range rifle??
"Kung-Fu" Country???

Pablito.
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 22:10:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)

Congratulations "Wills".
Dee T. <deeturner@jps.net>
Roseville, CA, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 22:24:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.119.27.230)

I think the Leupold 25x50 spotting scope is a better choice for two reasons. It is a little smaller and lighter than the 12x40, and if you want a mildot reticle then the variable power is going to cause some problems as the mildot is only good at a single power setting. The 25x50 will be a little less expensive too. Keep it simple. You give up a little field of view, but I think it is a good trade-off.

I agree with Mr. Gooch, and Mike M. Anytime you get a bunch of protesters together, and they try to stop someone else from attending whatever meeting, or convention they came to town for, a "civil-disturbance is likely. This more likey when we get a bunch of organized anarchists from out of town to help stir things up. Disagreeing with the WTO, or some other organization doesn't give us the right to burn the damn town down. Take that anger to the ballot-box, or even better yet get involved in the political process.

Pablito,

Yep, "A pistol, mebbe two" works for me. Mebbe some good HOT pepper spray (5.6 SHU)if it looks like a fist fight, and no weapons. Remember if there wasn't a gun at the scene before we arrive there is now!
 

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 22:43:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.33)

The 12x40 Leupold with the mil-dot is only available from Premier Reticles, and they WILL NOT retro-fit your scope... you have to buy it from them... anyway, the reticle gets larger, with increase in power, so it's accurate at all powers.
I agree with Bill... 'specially if you're going to use it for tactical matches... the 25x50 is way better.

'lito
 

Pablito. <condor@mags.net>
Lookin' for some of that North Country "Beaver"!!, In the Beaverless state of CT., USA - Sunday, December 05, 1999 at 22:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)

Pablito, thanks for the support but you are about 30 pounds light on your estimate my friend.

I am sorry for allowing this to get to this but I am just a little tired of folks calling us cops bad without any knowledge. I know most on this board dont feel that way. I come here to share what knowledge I have picked up and learn from others not to get into pee pee contests with whatever. Lets all get back to sniper related issues. If you have a question or advice about it add it.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 00:05:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.74)

I got a 10" 40-XB coming in any day (was due Sept 1st)... and Sierra says it'll spin the 220MK's.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 00:56:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)

Look I dont hate Cops I just get tired of Civilians getting raw Deals, I fully expect everyone to abide by the law and that means NOBODY being above it. Christ just about everyone I am friends with is or was a cop at one time. They do something I dont like I tell them and fully expect them to do the same to me.
Bout all I got to say about it hope we all can get by this and Learn from eachother.

Ses
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 01:12:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.191.73)

When aiming at moving targets, how do you keep the bipod from catching on the various flora, fauna, rocks and stuff under it? Spent about 30 minutes in the backyard following the cows and goats and inevitably the bipod legs would catch on something and interupt the game.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 01:44:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.190.135)

Try pivoting the rifle at the bipod by moving your body instead of moving, or scooting the rifle accross the ground. This may not be too good for a sniper shooting from a hide, but it works okay in the Tactical matches when engaging mulitple targets.

'Lito,

It seems that I was wrong about the variable power Leupold Spotting scope. Somehow I remember that the Mildot would not work with the variable power model. Thanks for catching that for me.

Later,
 
 
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 02:31:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.191)

My last post on the Bipod was for the Boltser, not 'Lito.
 

Thanks,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 02:34:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.191)

Here goes the readers digest version of moving target 101.

If you are using a bipod use the ambush method where you aim in front of the target and let the target move to the aiming point on your reticle. The rifle shouldn't have to be moved much if at all in this technique.

Ambush works for better on far targets and tracking works better up close.

Like I said its the readers digest version. You want more call (304)446-5526 and sign up.

Hand to gland. Seen many, many "kickboxers" get thier ass handed to them by grapplers in bars and shit. Love to watch tournament Karate types try to fight for real. Roundhouse kick gets grabbed, support foot gets swept, groin gets stomped. Gotta watch them sucker punches though. One well thrown punch can stun ya long enough to get your ass kicked.

Best move I ever saw was a Marine from Samoa slash another devil dog across the forehead with a straight razor then stand back and watch the guy freak as his vision was blocked by blood. Big guy just stood there, laughed and hauled ass. Fight over.

Of course there was the time in Okinawa where my buddy broke a Heiniken bottle in a guys face when the dude shoved a rose in my buddies face and asked him, "You ever smell death?" Badda bing, badda boom. That was a good technique too.

Damn Jarheads always fighting Jarheads. It was that testosterone and alcohol mix.

I tend to avoid fisticuffs these days. Seems that even if you win you still get hurt. Too many broken noses/toes, bruised shins, dislocated jaws in my younger days. My jaw is still fucked up. Got TMJ or TMD or what ever the hell its called. I'm a pussy now.

Out here.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 02:38:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.171)

I have dealt with Mike M for about a year now, and had the honor and privilege of meeting him and breaking bread with him at the Hathcock match at Storm Mountain in October.

Mike is a gentleman.

Period.

Attacks on anyone due to their chosen profession are no different from attacks on ethnic or religious groups. And folks that choose to risk their lives for low pay in order to protect the rest of us have my deep and abiding respect and gratitude. Ninety-five percent of my customers are law enforcement or military. To tar them all with the same brush because of prejudice is inexcusable. While I deplore the excesses of certain law enfocement individuals (the shooting of Vicki Weaver springs to mind), there was not one competitor at the Hathcock match that I would not have trusted with my wallet and my ATM card.

Maybe not with my wife, cause they were all better-looking than me.

Point is, this site is not the place for cop-bashing or advancing a personal agenda which deals with an "us vs. them" philosophy.

When you have met an individual and gotten to know him well, then and only then pass judgement on him. And even then, be careful, lest you be judged yourself.

Sorry to get on the soapbox like this, but I won't remain silent when a good man is attacked like this.
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 02:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.122.243)

P.S. Thanks to all the rest of you for the knowledge from your writtings.
TR <cerunous@pcisys.net>
BFE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 03:05:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.33.78)

Pablito, the 220's run to slow in 308 Winchester but kick butt in 300Win.

Partison, I have stod up to folks that attack other my whole life. Everyone can share his or her opinion but I will not stand for anyone that attacks others based on job, race or religious beliefs. That is why I became a cop. I hate bullies. You keep your opinion about cops to your self and I will say nothing to you. Look back for the last month, you managed to not say anything bad about cops a whole month. I said nothing to you of a negative nature. You spout your us agaisnt them stuff and prepare to be taken on over it. That is what happened here and you lost your cool. I just laughed when I saw you do it. Thats all I needed to know about you. I come on here for sniper related things. I have never saw you add anything to the descusion. I hope you will. Don't cop bash and everything will be fine.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 04:06:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.179)

I was considering the Accuracy International AWM at first but I called
McBros (http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcbros/mcbros.htm) and they had one also.
Since I have several of their .308s and a .50 -- I know how nice their
rifles can be. I must say I also have an Accuracy International AWP .308 and
it shoots very well, but the AWs cost more than the McBros, and they have a
lower quality of finish. I feel like I am getting more value from McBros.

My new .338 is the MCRT action, standard trigger, A4 stock (green with black
marbling added, Parker Hale bipod stud, and Parker Hale bipod. Badger
Ordnance rings and base will be added along with a Schmidt & Bender 4-16x
34mm tube Police Marksman-II side-focus, mil-dot scope). The finish is
Roguard with NP3 internals. Barrel is 27" with muzzle brake and fluting. The
workmanship is outstanding. Since I am still waiting for the 34mm rings, I
shot it with a cheap ($150) Simmons 3-12x scope with Leupold quick release
rings. These rings do not hold their zero because you have to torque them by
hand and each time it is different. I have seen these rings walk my groups
on another rifle as they shot themselves loose.

My fear was that this cartridge would have too much recoil for me. I am
under 150 pounds, and the most I can take is 1 ounce slugs from my Benelli
Super-90 shotgun. Today I fired the .338 Lapua Magnum and I can say the
recoil (in this gun) was nothing! It felt like about 1/2 of my Steyr .308
Scout and MUCH less than a 12 gauge or my friends .300 Win-Mag Remington. It
could be the rifle's weight (16lbs), or maybe the muzzle brake. I used to
believe that muzzle brakes do not work, but I read a very scientific test in
Very High Power (unlike Guns & Ammo you get useful information from this
magazine www.fcsa.org) where they suspended rifles in the air and fired them
with various muzzle brakes and measured how much each swung back on a video
camera. Let me say, I am now convinced they work (but they do increase the
apparent noise).

I fired two 5 shot groups at 100 yards, one of which was 0.225 inches, the
other slightly larger. This was cold from the box, not broken in, not
cleaned during firing, and with factory ammo made by Dakota Arms (all I
could get quickly -- this ammo uses Norma brass which is not as good as
Lapua brass). Bullet was Sierra 300 grain BTHP, non-moly. The scope was not
my good one, but that temporary cheap Simmons. This 5 shot group looked like
two holes near each other -- so three bullets went through one
non-clover-leafed hole and two went through the other (but all shots were
within the .225 inches (center to center)). I think the scope mount walked.
In other words -- I suspect this gun can do even much better with handloads,
a more secure mount, and a smaller target dot to aim at! Unreal! I am
virtually sure I can cut this group size in half. I am very impressed with
the power and accuracy. Let me restate, I am not a great shot. I would have
no chance in competitive shooting, but this rifle helps a lot. I would love
to see a great shooter try this.

Just for comparison, at this page someone did a test where they shot an
Accuracy International AWM .338 Lapua Mag
(http://www.accuratereloading.com/338lmag.html) and out of 44 groups most
where greater than 0.5 inches and only 3 of their groups (out of 44 groups)
where under 0.3 inches or smaller. This was not only with custom handloads,
but they were just 3 shot groups. Let me tell you, 3 shot groups are a lot
easier than 5 shot groups. I can have a computer pick 3 random points inside
a 1" circle and if I did it 44 times, a few times those points would be on
top of each other! In other words, I might just have a much more accurate
rifle than the Accuracy International AWM.

I am going to bring this McBros to a 600 yard egg-shoot and kick butt. This
round has about 1/2 the windage of a .308.

----------------------------------
 
 

The QuickLoad program from Necco (http://www.neconos.com/) is amazing. It
can predict internal and external ballistics and has a HUGE bullet, casing,
and powder database.

I compared real-world results (3 shot group average) using N560 powder to
what QuickLoad predicted for the same barrel length and also for N560
powder.

Rifle is .338 Lapua Magnum:

Charge is N560, bullet is Sierra 300 grain MatchKing.
81.5 grains - 2571fps actual, 2575 predicted.
83.0 grains - 2622fps actual, 2621 predicted.
84.5 grains - 2669fps actual, 2666 predicted.
86.0 grains - 2715fps actual, 2711 predicted.
87.5 grains - 2759fps actual, 2755 predicted.

It gives estimated pressure readings also -- so you can play what-if
scenareos before going to the range. Really helps you understand loading.
 

--------------------------------------
Which is better, the Lapua 250 grain bullet or the Sierra 300?

Bullet powder fps ft/lbs psi recoil PBR drop wind energy 1000
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sierra 87.3 2750 5037 58003 28.41 285 23.1 52.9 1915
Lapua 94.2 3017 5052 57970 26.48 306 19.9 53.6 1745

powder is grain of N560.
fps is velocity at muzzle
ft/lbs is muzzle energy
psi is chamber pressure
recoil is in ft/lbs
PBR is max range in yards for bullets to stay within 6 inch circle
drop is in MOA from 300 to 1000 yards
wind is drift in inches at 100 yards with 10mph wind
energy is in ft/lbs at 1000 yards
 

Conclusion:
Sierra has 9% more energy remaining at 1000 yards.
Sierra will have 23.5% more penetration.
Lapua recoils 7% less.
Lapua has 14% less bullet drop at 1000 yards.
windage equal.
Lapua probably costs more (not sure, Sierra is .42 cents each).
Accuracy untested.

So the Lapua shoots flatter but the Sierra strikes harder. All else is very close. If accuracy is equal I would go with the Sierra because I assume the Lapua bullets cost a lot more.
 

Robert Silvers <rsilvers@vineyard.net>
Cambridge, MA, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 04:10:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.218.233.103)

Now back to shooting... I just got my Krieger barreled AR upper back. Christmass is early this year. Now I hafta break in the beast and work up new loads. Sigh :( At least it will be range/trigger time. I have to get out from behind this damn 'puter screen. Not that you're not good company.
 

steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South wet , Pennsylvania, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 04:13:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.31)

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 05:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.161)

These "Rack" grade M1's are just luck of the draw. The buyer is assigned a serial number from one of these rifles, and when that one is pulled from storage it is checked for headspace, and safe operation and then shipped to the new owner. If you get a real nice one count yourself very lucky.

When I got mine about 4 years ago, or so the wood was not any good, but the metal was absolutely perfect. From my research it appears that my rifle was an Arsenal-Rebuild in 11-65, and then put into long-term storage. It was originally manufactured in April of 1943. I re-placed all of the wood with a stock from Fajen. It took several days of sanding and measuring to get a proper fit, but now it looks just like a GI issue stock without any Cartuoches, or any military markings. I have not done any accurizing to it because I want to use to shoot the John C. Garand Memorial Matches with, and this requires the rifle be totally as issued. Replacement wood is allowed as long as it is not an oversized stock.

I think that your rifle will be way better than any of the M1 imports that have returned to the US. Are you aware that you are authorized to buy a can or two of GI M2 30-06 Ball ammo from the CMP because you bought this rifle? It is de-linked MG ammo LC69, and is on the 8rd en-block M1 clips. About $60 a can for 280 rounds, I think.

Best Regards, and Good Luck!!
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 14:13:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.49)

Hand to hand is a worthwhile life skill, and I bless my three thug brothers for every time they broke my nose. But that UFC "Are you ready? Are you ready? Let's get it on then!" is not real life. By that time the smart one has already crippled the other one's ass. I could pull maybe 50 examples from my direct experience.

I'm not talking about this anymore. It gets grisly.
 
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 15:00:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.37)

ses
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 15:05:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.187.71)

Partison,
Mike is right and so is Gooch, I have stood on the other side of the line and let me tell you the only thing I was praying for was that the shit "Didn't" hit the fan. I have been in Martial Arts for more than 30 years and hold black belts in several styles and I will be the first to tell you that in real life fighting out in the street all the Dojo manta isn't worth spit. It comes down to who hits who the hardest first and the guts to keep going when many would quit is what wins fights. I like Mike resent the fact that you seem to like to bash cops and hope you will some day see that all cops are not bad and use a much smaller brush when you paint us as bad guy looking to bust heads for fun.

Bruce,
Well spoken by a true gentleman, I wish the world was full of people like you and then Mike and I would be out of business!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 15:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

As for martial arts on the streets, I think 80 percent of martial arts is crap, I do however know for a fact from personal experience some of it is helpful.
And I do agree with both of you Street fights are normally quick and brutal. And nothing stops someone faster than getting there head smashed off a wall or into the pavement. Now you guys may no Sniping but I know Streetfighting. Like I said anyone wants to discuss it thru E-mail that is fine. as Im sure that everyone here to learn shooting is tired of everyone trying to prove whos best.

As far as being courtiouse and helping people, I always am and always do, 90 percent of my fights have been sticking up for someone. And I dont ask anyone I ever helped for anything as I consider it a civic duty for each and every person to help someone else in need.

Partison
 

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 16:01:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.185.82)

Bottom line, go to the local first aid squad and ask the weenie with the white jumpsuit on to show you the dime trick, you won't believe that this silly looking piece of crap you dismissed for years is really a quality piece of kit.
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 17:33:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

I guess I should have planned a Hand to Hand seminar.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Slow, Business, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 18:08:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.155)

One more thing should I clean and polish my barrel before I shoot it for the first time. I do not have many guns so my Knowledge of gun are not the greatest so mush help is needed in hints and tricks. Thanks

mingler <mingler@gte.net>
seattle, wa, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 18:48:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.13.226.16)

I'd pass on the B&L 4200 6x24x40 for the M700 PSS. It's a good scope (I just got one last week), but has some limitations for what you want.
The first is, it has a total of only 26 moa of elevation from top to bottom, and if you don't choose mounts carefully, you may wind up with only 8 to 10 moa of elevation, and not be able to reach out to the range you want... the other reason, is it's very long, (with sunshade about 22") and so more likely to get whacked and damaged.
It's a very good target scope, and ideally suited to a varmint rifle.

Get the Leupold...

Pablito.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 19:27:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.70)

Any plans for when you will be making it out this way? I think I've got enough saved up for your gas money.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 20:55:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.22.22.2)

Boots: I'm partial to the Vasque's, although they quit making the ones I have now. Only brand (as part of Redwing) to complete the apalacian trail. I've worn mine for years, still going fine. If your foot runs slightly narrow, these are great!

Kit: This was some good advice given to me once upon a time. Write down everything you put in your pack, and put everything in you might want. Go out for a weekend, marking things as you use them. When you get back, take everything out (except med kit) that you didn't mark 3 times. If you marked it once or twice, rationalize why you need it. Pares things down in a hurry. But paracord is worth twice it's weight.

Hand to hand: Pablito and Gooch got the whole thing sewed up. Tried the boxing thing durring college. Gave it a full year, but back of neck kept hurting. Too many tall people out there with reaches to match. Tried some of the other stuff too highschool through college. Best illustration was when I changed dojos. Thought karate was for short guys (like me). New instructor looked at the patches on my gi, asked "in your opinion what's the best defensive move you know?", I made a weapon draw motion, which was replied to with "ah so. Ninja no block 38". It was a 45, but same thought. Besides, if it isn't over in the first couple of seconds, it's on the ground.

Best move I ever saw (personally): two highschool kids (maybe) decided to duke it out in the middle of a Billy Idol concert next to me. I moved my date to the other side, not wanting to either get in it or be stumbled over. Fight went up the hill behind me slightly, and this big guy wearing a USMC sweatshirt grabbed both their collars and smacked their heads together. I started laughing and made comments about only seeing that on the 3 stooges. Think they were betting that would happen? He who dares, wins.

And, sorry, but I can't help it: militia militia militia! Flame flame flame!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Ducking for cover in, Utah, USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 21:56:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

Rod, wish I had the money to take every course you guys offer. Could become a professional student. With daughter sucking bank account dry will be lucky to come up with Sniper Rendevous entry.

Mingler, I am sure that Lito and PeteR would highly recommend the book, BMARC&L (Bolt Method of Anal Retentive Cleaning and Lapping), soon to be a best seller. Only problem, you will be old and gray before you get the PSS broke in. LOL If the PSS is a poor man's sniper rifle, it fits me to a tee.

Gooch, agree with you on being a woosie, shooting first saves ouchies later. To old to run and don't want to die tired anyway.

On the spotting scopes, get the Leapaholder 25, not the 12-40 unless it will be mainly used for bench and then don't get the mildot. I made the very expensive mistake of not listening to Lito and PeteR.

And Partison.....
Son, I don't know how old you are but sounds like you didn't grow up when street fighting was an art, kindo like drive by shooting is now. Saw and laughed at alot karate kids get the hockey beat of em. When I started in the martial arts, we didn't know what pads were if that tells you anything. I enjoyed many forms of the martial arts for about 25 years, now it's tough to find someone that isn't in it for the all mighty dollar. I don't know how many street fights that you have been in but I do know one thing, if you haven't had your ass whipped at least once, you haven't fought many good street fighters. And I don't mean the ones that talk you to death and then invite you outside. Do yourself and your students a big favor and invite some good streetfighters off the street to your dojo and let them show you how to add realism to the martial arts. You can find them in most every bar at around 2 in the morning on payday.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, December 06, 1999 at 23:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.185.125)

Ground Grappeling and choke holds too....

I like the old saying "Hit'em low, Hit'em HARD, & if they get up Hit them again (preferably with a LARGE heavy object)"

B.T.D.T. like The Old Dawg & the other regular Rosterfarians have all said, It ain't fun, a joke, or playing around in a dojo, building false confidence, or the illusion of competence through unrealistic drills.

I remember one Tang Soo Do school had a "Walk the Gauntlet" drill where I was told I could not strike pre-emptively! :-o Then it was no groin kicks, knee to foot smashes, etc. etc. They about flipped when I started using elbows and knees and tight circular type parry/attacks.

When you "think" you can handle one guy well, try fighting two at once. Now that is REAL humbling............

I'd show you but Depity still has me in the "Vice", Owwie it hurts Mommy! :-(

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 00:41:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.67)

NOW I know I can get some flame!

Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Wearing asbestos underwear in, Utah, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 02:52:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.163)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 03:30:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.22)

The Winchester M1's are great "Collectors" rifles, but as shooters they are the worst M1's ever made. I got a DCM M1 made by SA, and it shoots great, even with M2 ball ammo. It never has failed to function. Not bad for a rifle that was manufactured in 1943.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 04:02:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.67)

I wonder, when we finally war with those bastards...will they continue to sell us the non-polluting green bullet making stuff?

Yeah, it just keeps getting stranger.

Old Dog [going out to look for black helio's by the barn, get me a drink of river water]
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 04:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.15.72)

Bolt if after 24 years of martial arts you havnt learned to fight by now, give it up man, lost cause.

I learned along time ago no matter how many you fight, theres always one more, and acording to some other mouth, there is always someone better than the last one you beat.
I got nothing to prove I know what I can do and those that have seen me know all to well. Ive had the allmighty reputation everyone dreams of , oh its fun, but along with that comes a never ending line of guys that think they can beat you. Countless sunday punches. And a life of always looking over your shoulder.
 

Im gone for good so future posts will be frutile, Wonder how many others have been Driven out becouse of jealous insecurity?
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
M, M, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 04:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.206)

Haven't worked with the Scattergun Tec, but here in So Cal, Vang Comp shotguns are the hot ticket. Hans Vang does magic to shotgun barrels if you ask me. He does everything you are talking about doing. I believe his web page is www.vangcomp.com I have a Mossberg 590A1 and an Rem 11-87 police that have Vang barrels on and they are fantastic. Many law enforcement dept's around here use his guns, off the top of my head the Burbank and Santa Paula PD do. Just a satisfied customer.

Mike
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 06:39:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.110)

I hear alot of talk on the Roster about Mike Rock barrels, Obermyer barrels, Hart, Shilen, Lilja and others. Right now I'm shooting a K&P
cut rifled barrel, all the guys I shoot with and that includes the fella that built my gun uses and recommends them. Do you guys have any experience with these barrels? I think mine shoots great. It hardly fouls, and has always been vary fair to me in the velocity department. I just can't figure on a different type of barrel dramatically improving my weapons performance. Why is the 5R rifling profile considered by most of you to be so much better than anything else? What's the difference between 5R and regular old hook cut rifling?
Casey <caseyb@scs.unr.edu>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 06:54:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.152.153)

Snug Pak in the UK make what I consider one of the best sleeping bags around, and they also use the same insulation to make jackets, and booties.

dont know if they have a us distributor, but Darren Burrell handles the export sales. Phone 011 44 1535 65 44 79 five hours ahead of eastern time .

I have their sleka parka, and it fits into a cantine pouch and I use it during those frequent stops when you are all sweat and dirt and steaming in the cold.

this jacket and 2 1/2 foot section of sleeping mat and a gore tex bivy bag are all I take when I travel light. Hmmpf ! : ) (I guess loosing 20 Pounds would be even lighter)

t
 

torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
germany - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 07:29:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.118)

BTW

Mossberg makes a double action only version of the 590 called 590 DA 1

gives you one extra round in the chamber with the DA trigger pull of the Pistol.

t
torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
Germany - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 07:37:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.120)

Partison,
If you leave its your choice but if you want to learn and have something to offer stick around but put the chip on your shoulder away. I would be curious to know how old you are???
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 14:30:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Sleeping Bags: Eastern Mountain Sports makes excellent Thermoloft bags that are light and good to -30. The thermoloft keeps you warm when wet. If it were for a tactical situation I might consider a snowmobile suit instead of a sleeping bag, it allows you fast mobility and use of your hands, they also keep you warm and dry. The Danish Army had something similiar that they used for their Greenland Dog Sled patrols.

Spotting scopes; US Optics is making a good military type with interchangeable lenses (a 10x with lit mil-dot reticle, and a 15 x 45), they are working on a fixed 24x with mil-dot for me. Scope will run in the $400 - $500 range, depending on any options. Should be available by the spring. I believe they are taking orders now.
 

TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 14:40:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Your wife must be a gem.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 14:56:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.38)

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 14:59:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.65.185)

The broken men lay all over the town, some were badly injured with shattered arms, collar bones, and worse, but they were the lucky ones.

Many would never get up, that red bruise over their shattered neck vertebra, from the blinding spin kick, being the last thing they felt.

Most of the men were lying on the wooden sidewalk in front of the bar... the doors were no longer swinging.
The rest were lying in the muddy street, next to their horses, who were also lying dead, still tied to the hitchin' posts.

Al over town, was heard the sound of crying from the new widows, as they wept over their dead husbands, and the saloon girls who knew it would be a long time before "business" would come back in town.

It was like a blur... a tornado of hands and feet... "HE" was here, and the word would spread across the prairie like wildfire.

"HE" walked through the middle of Center street, looking at his handy work. He was wrapped a black duster, with 28 black belts holding it closed. On his forehead, was the white sweat band, with the crimson SUN in the middle... the true sign of his deadly trade.

As he came to the edge of town, on his way down the road, he stopped to look at the a new widow who stood next to the telegraph man (who was spared because of his age of 83).

She asked the tele man...
"Who is that stranger, that man of blinding speed and death?"

"Why, don'cha know, Darlin'... that's... that's... why that's "Master Kung Fu Fighter!"

"No... not Master Kung Fu Fighter" she sighed, with a longing look in her eyes. Even as her husband lie dead at her feet, she could feel the stirring fires in her loins for this super legend... "Is he single?" she asked.

"Don't make no difference Darlin', he and his brother "Master Sniper", don't waste no time truckin with women folk... they have important work to do..."
... and as the sun set on this once thriving town, they could hear a faint voice...

"Another town, another bar!"
 
 

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 15:14:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.66)

U.N. coming for your guns
Private groups, governments team up
to severely restrict firearms ownership
 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19991207_xex_un_coming_yo.shtml

I thought you folks might like to read this one. Not very pleasant to my brain stem and I think not to yours too.
---------------------------------------
On to another subject at hand. I currently live in San Francisco, the city on the left. :-) I am seriously thinking of forming or coordinating shooters out here. Thinking anyhow, wondering if it is feasible. The reason is that there are many that I have met at the range who wants to learn, or just shoot and swap either stores or learn from others such as myself wanting to learn new things. This is nothing more and nothing less then a group of citizens wanting to gather, shoot and talk about the art of shooting. What do you guys think? Any one who reads this from the general area of San Francisco, I welcome your input immensely. Thanks guys...

Darren...
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, California, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 16:45:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.33)

Hey Don

Just my opinion, I think I can save you some money. Here is a breakdown of the border patrol features and some common sense options

Remington 12 ga. 3" 870 Magnum
Parkerized Receiver with an 18" Barrel
(cylinder bore)

Remington makes 20” barrels for their shotguns with choke tubes installed for about $150.00
I have a special perpose 20” 11-87 that works great for everything but CQB.
You can get a local gunsmith to cut the barrel down and reinstall the front bead for about $50.00

Adjustable TRAK-LOCK®
Ghost Ring rear sight,
Ramp type front sight with
Self Luminous insert
I think the gost ring sights are highly overrated on a shotgun. They work great on a rifle but for the distances a shotgun is used just a plain gold bead will do the job.

Extended Magazine Tube,
Total Capacity: 7 rounds
You can get a Extended Magazine Tube, for about $45..00

Synthetic Buttstock and Fore Grip
what is so wrong with a wood stock? (it doesn’t match the black body armor and riot gear)

High Visibility, Non-Binding Follower
has your old follower ever bided? When the gun is empty I can tell. I don’t need to turn the gun upside down to look at the follower.

Performance Rated Magazine Tube Spring
what does this mean? You get a extra long magazine tube spring as part of the extended magazine kit

Jumbo Head Safety
this is an install yourself item out of brownells $75.00

Multi-Purpose Tactical Sling
(not shown Item #30426)
these things sell at gunshows with of without shell loops for about $10.00

Buttstock Swivel and Rigid
install one yourself if you do not have one allerady $1.00

Magazine Tube Sling Mount
Get at any gun show $5.00

$420.00 or $150.00-275.00 do it yourself. Scattergun technologies is a great company and they sell to LE and govt. agencies all the time but for guys on a budget it’s a lot more cost effective to do the work yourself. For the extra money you can get a shotgun shell sidesaddle, butt stock shell holder, tactical light kit, and a drop in trigger job. Well that’s all I have.

Good luck,

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 16:52:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

5R rifled bbls tend to do less destruction/distortion to bullets when they start into the lands and groves. Atleast that is how Mike Rock explained it to me. I have never noticed anuthing major myself

US Optics: anything they make is great stuff Tony. They must love you. I think you have bought one of everything from them. Of course when you get tired of the scope on your rifle I will trade my Tasco for it. LOL

Shotguns: We use both Scatter Gun and Robar. I would have to say that both hold up well. Scatter Gun is cheaper but if I had to beat the weapon up I would stick with the Robar. Robar is way more money though. I have used a 14" Robar daily for about five years now with a stain nickel finish. Still looks new.

Partison, your choice to leave, but just because we dont agree does not mean you or I would have to leave. You ticked me off and I you. No big deal you have your opinion and I have mine. We just stick to shooting and leave politics out. I never entered into the Kung Fu stuff because my way of fighting is short and sweet. We call it wall time and you being a street fighter know what I mean. Head softer than wall. I dont have much interest in going toe to toe with anyone anymore, been there done that and have the scars. Do what you think is best but dont go away because someone told you you are wrong in their eyes. The idea of this board is to share knowledge not get in pee pee contests. The Hockey Ref said it and damm must be brainwashing from my Football days I felt compelled to stop when he asked so.
 

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 16:59:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.41)

Re: shotgun slings. I'm no shotgun master, but I found that those shell holding slings were bogus. When somewhat loaded, they exagerate all movements between targets. Like tying 2 pounds on the muzzle at the end of a foot long cord. Maybe youse guys got a different technique, but I would rather have the shells in a pouch.

Partison: It's OK to disagree! No, REALLY!

'Lito: OUGH!

Now I'M the ninja master! After all, as I type this, my fingers aren't even coming close to the correct keys! E-mail version of bad lip synch. Exit the drugoon.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 18:59:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.com>
Portland, Or, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 19:10:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.116)

BTW, Danner has an outlet store here in PDX where they sell 2nds. Now that their warranty is only 6 months (2nds have no wrnty) they're unbeatable price wise. 'bout 1/2 retail. Phone # is 503-251-1111
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 19:22:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.116)

Enough of that Crap!

Backup weapon? Remington 870, pistol grip, 6 shot tube, whole thing down in OD green of course.

Does anyone have any experience with a Nikon scope?
C.R. Stoddard <stoddard@poncacity.net>
P.C., Oklahoma, USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 19:25:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.76.245.24)

When one is on a creep how does one keep from leaving a flat trail of grass? Do you kick it up again slowly with your feet to make it look normal?

All,

This is my revised gear list:

2 knives M9 and a Spyderco Police
2 canteens w/covers
1 canteen cup
pistol belt
"X" harness
2 buttpacks
either my 1911A1 SA .45 or my Glock 19
3 mags
1 M700
2 boxes of ammo maybe 3
4 MRE broken down
water tabs
sweats
xtra cammies bottoms only
xtra socks 2 pair
550 cord
magnesium igniter
zippo and butane pocket warmer
ghillie (cape I don't want to change clothes)
poncho w/liner
field jacket liner (no field jacket)
small firts aid kit
camo paint
thats it.
If I am forgetting something let me know.

8x57mm guy,

I will post the loads tomorrow on the 8x57mm loads they will be 150gr and a 175gr class. I love Mausers!

Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 19:56:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.12)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 22:49:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Very basic question.....

Exactly how do you use a drag bag, from the time you are loading your gear in it to the time you take your shot? This valuable information will be used to determine if I need to bankroll one.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 23:18:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.185.59)

I tried my hand at Pulp paperback romance novels... wrote a real smoker, and it kept coming back with rejection slips, until one publisher rejected it, and included a note with it...

"Dear Mr. Pablito, would you please explain the relationship of the hero with the flock of sheep?... and do you know any of the following felons... The Boltster, The Gooch, "Ol' Dog"..." and the list went on... I think he reads the Roster... anyway, my writing career went up in smoke.

Ol' Dog... at least it was Pepsie.

More serious "Sniper stuff"...
There was a note a few days ago, on com units (radios)... and I mentioned that Motorola's "TalkAbouts" were very popular.
I just got two Cobra "Microtalks" today, and they are made better than the "Talkabouts, plus the high end units (the #2, #3 and the #310) have a voice scrambling mode that works very, very well.
They price out about the same as the Moto's... I may do a comparison review this winter... will let you know.

'lito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, December 07, 1999 at 23:30:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.83)

Back to business: If I'm shooting slugs, I want a ghost-ring with a post front. Wood stocks are heavier. Less recoil. I like that in a 12 gauge. To each his own.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 01:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.12)

All,
I have a question (or questions) for your consideration.

Setup - I shoot an unmodified PSS in .308. I am focused on developing extremely accurate ammo, before I delve into my aged, weak shooting skills. I am not a professional or competitive shooter, nor do I play one on TV. I have more time than sense, so I am working at building something between High Power and Bench Rest grade loads (neck-sized, neck-turned, deburred, uniformed, weight-sorted, etc.).

All that said, I have to ask if any of you have done any chronograph work on the match-grade factory stuff I read about here and in the Emporium. I recently fired a 3-shot group of my hand loads across a chronograph. I got a .210" group (@ 100 yds) and observed a mere 32 FPS spread (~ +/- 0.75%). This was the single best group I’ve fired. Subsequent rounds from the same lot of hand loads were more dispersed with respect to velocity, and grouped accordingly. Indication that my work is not yet done at the loading bench…

Assuming that all else was essentially constant, I have to lay most of the blame on the velocity spread. I must conclude that I simply got a fluke trio of loads that fate located side by side in the box. With this in mind, I intend to strive for much greater consistency through better tools and techniques. HOWEVER, before I get too deep into this (which I may do regardless), I think I need to know if I’m really wasting my time.

What sort of velocity consistency can be expected from factory match-grade loads? What sort of groups are you getting off the bench with this ammo? What’s the typical cost per round of such ammo? In practical terms, do any of you really care about that degree of accuracy?

For me, this is an adventure in learning what can be done. Winter's a good time for such trivial pursuit, but somewhere along the way, I have to justify the trip. I’ll appreciate all responses.

Thanks, and Semper Fi!

Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
PA, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 01:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.39)

Your velocity spread of 30 fps, is typical of the .308.
This past summer, I fired one .308 case 27 times (I had loading stuff at the range) in a benchrest grade rifle... and the spreads were around 20 to 30 fps... so even when you have "no" variation from case to case... using the same case 27 times, there are variations that you can't control.

The costs of match .308 ammo, is from 65 cents to a dollar, depending on how much you buy, and who you buy it from.

Go ahead, and try everything, keep good notes, and enjoy.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 02:24:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.134)

I turn 40 tomorrow - I might be able to talk the family into getting one for me.

Ken :)

Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 02:52:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

First I should say that I have zero training with a shotgun and very little experience with their capabilities. With that said, I am curious about this weapon's suitability as a sniper's backup weapon. If a sniper team is compromised the immediate action should be to pop smoke and break contact, right. For this purpose I would much rather have a carbine with its higher capacity, detachable (quick reloading)magazines, preferably with an M203 type grenade launcher attached for more firepower and to reach deadspace. I'am I missing something? Enlighten me please.

PJ
 

Paul J. Martoccia <pmartoc@sprynet.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 02:53:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.205.161.142)

Jeff Cooper: IF you'll scroll up, I mentioned my "sidekick", a black mini-AFCK. I suppose there are some better knives out there, and their are some pricier knives out there, but I really like my Benchmade. I do have a few Gerbers, and a little Spyderco, and a SOG tool and a small Cold Steel (a mini-Outdoorsman, really cool knife), and the mandatory Ka-bars; but the Benchmade is the one that is w/ me almost everywhere. If I ever told my wife how much I spent for it, though, she'd cut off my balls with it....

CDC: I really like Wiggys bags. I've got two, a 20 deg bag and a lighter 35 deg bag (the two can be mated into one), and haven't destroyed them yet. You're right about down.... although it's the best at keeping you warm when its all dry, it'll never do if there's any chance of being wet.... Lamilite seems to be good insulation to compress and then recover. Wiggy's has a military discount, BTW... that's part of why I bought mine, too.... they're not the cheapest otherwise. He may offer a discount to cops, too.... wouldn't hurt to ask.

Shotguns: I like my Mossberg 590, but I'll have to admit I suck w/ a shotgun.... I could do more damage w/ the bayonet than with the gun itself... I really have been thinking about getting into skeet or trap or something so I can become more efficient with it... I know that it'd make a fine arm but I'll a MUCH better shot w/ a pistol and most definitely with a rifle (BUT, I'm still sucking compared to 99% of you blokes).

Rod, Gooch, et al: I hate to hear about your course falling through... if I had any pennies to spare at the moment I'd be there, but.... well, put it this way: I shoot a Savage... ;-)

'lito: ROTFLMAO!!!!

Optics: I love Nikon cameras, but I haven't ever been fond of non-Leupold scopes (well, except for the fabled sacred Unertl, made of unobtainium); IMHO, YMMV.....

-L

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
VA-TN, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 04:03:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.93.45)

Sorry if I sounded like I was cop bashing. I wasn't. It's not thier fault they were following orders

Shotguns: Scattergun Tech is great but cost. Mossberg is cheaper and upgrade from 'cheaper than dirt' for little money. If you like autos go with the benelli ISPC comp. model they are great? I use one in three gun competition and you can use thier speed loaders. Check them out.

Pablito. Hey bud. Great to be back after a long summer of hard work 5 feet off the groung at 140mph. And great to be shooting .45moa with my stock Winchester Laredo in 300 win mag. Of corse the 79.5grn of RL22 behind 165 nosler balistic's helps. PEOPLE DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! IT'S OVER MAX AND MY RIFLE HAS A HUGE CHAMBER AND ISN'T SHOWING PRESSURE SIGHNS. YOUR'S PROBABLY WILL.

Back to the deer stand to get some more monsters!
jeff cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
Memphis, tn, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 05:02:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.51)

Shotguns...
Have two, a 870 police "cruiser gun" w/3" mag chamber, 18" bbl, and pear shaped grip... haven't fired it yet, it's tiny and scares me.
But I figure that the sound of "Rackin' the slide" will make anybody wet their pants.
Main shotgun is a 11-87 police w/3" chamber, 20" bbl, and full length mag.
Only changes are Tritium front and rear sight, one of Brownells speed elevators, and their fast cocking handle. Rem says to only use 3" mags, but I've found that it will cycle anything down to old paper "skeet" loads when held in one hand. Very reliable gun.

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 11:25:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.105)

Still need instructions on drag bag useage. No Pete, not an overnight bag for drag queens.
Bolt <reeldoc@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 13:11:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

I don't know if any of you is active in the pro-gun lobby, but you can at least point the flowing out to your Senator or whoever you feel can carry your flag.

A 17 year old boy shot and wounded 5 people in a school in Veghel, my former hometown here in The Netherlands. Gun laws in The Netherlands are very strict and it is very hard to legally own a firearm. Inspite of these laws, this boy has managed to get hold of a gun and start shooting people. This prooves again that gun laws don't work. If trhey can't be bought legally, they will be bought illegally. Tell your government that the Western world is facing a MENTALITY PROBLEM here, not a GUN PROBLEM!

Click here for more details!

Take care, you guys and I hope your liberal politicians get their heads out of their *sses! Explain to them that "liberal" used to mean someone who wants less influence by the government in peoples everyday life, NOT MORE!

L8er!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 13:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.192.23)

Now about the roster:

WTF, Over????

Guess I have not missed much after all! Didn't it used to center round long range shooting and rifle tuning, gear and technique? Now its Karate Country? Now police bashing? No offense guys but WTF? ;-)

Well folks, the roster is pretty much self regulating. Those of you who rightfully got disgruntled during the above ninja wars can end these pointless diatribes about none sniper related issues by simply IGNORING the original posts and carrying on as usual - trading VALUABLE information about shooting and gear. I know that can be tough. Especially when some schmuck comes on and blasts hard working LE types because of an obvious bias of his. You understandably hate to let some things slide. Honor demands a response. Can't blame you - and in this case, the Mikes and Bruce were right on. BUT I have come to the conclusion that if we are going to keep this roster on topic we almost have to adopt an attitude that simply rolls over the BS and gets back to the issues related to this site. This is NOWHERE NEAR as satisfying as a full retaliatory broadside online, where said schmuck made his original remarks. But it is not hard to see how these kinds of distractions take away from the learning experience of the whole.

Maybe we should open a second roster for free thought and conversation. All the political, non-shooting, soap box issues can be tossed in there. Not that any of US would go visit it mind you… ;-)

But that ain't going to happen. So, next time a topic comes up not to you're liking that is totally unrelated to the site, just blow by it. With luck it'll go away when it gets no audience. We all like to pontificate once in a while. Hell, I am doing it now. But how many times do we have to point out this roster is NOT for political diatribes. It is not for pro-government or anti government rhetoric. It ain't even for the hunting sports (although we tolerate it for obvious reasons). You all KNOW it is about issues relating to sniper training, ops, gear improvements, optics, ballistics, and experience sharing. Use it for what it is because frankly there ain't many places like it on the web. If you want politics, go to TUCO's site (http://www.mosin-nagant.net/). He has an excellent board for just such endeavors, as do a million other sites. Do we have to say it again? Keep it on topic! Damn. There I go sounding like a bloody PREACHER!

Spend your time spouting off about how Leupold might improve a scope, or howa gun maker can better fit your needs. But street fighting? BOHICA!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 16:26:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

So are we in agreement?

how about something more interesting? Lets see some personal reports on the Remington LTR.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 16:34:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

Mike Miller, you acquitted yourself & your fellow officers vey well.
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 18:20:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.133.22)

Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Treading through the snow in, Utah, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 18:58:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

But as much as I love my 870, I don't think I'd want to take it on a stalk. Too heavy, and you can't carry enough ammo. As flexible as they are, they're better suited for point defense and CQB.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 19:45:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.22.22.2)

MikeM and I have taken turns mailing a Pelican case back and forth, today got it here and it is simply busted all to hell. As you would face it to open, bottom rear corner is sheered off, one of the hinges is ground as if it was dragged on pavement for a loooong way, and top right front corner is busted through. Oh, and it looks like a can of white paint was busted on it. Shipping tape shredded, it is really a sight.

Convenient, I guess...let your people tear up enough stuff without firing their ass...and everyone will insure the package for a bunch [of course UPS is self insured]...works for them, eh?

Old [mad] Dog 20/20
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
broken, pelican, USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 20:32:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 20:33:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 20:46:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.129)

Team Delta was a police swat sniper team. They were stationed 300yds from the primary target. Their mission was to secure a sentry and provide cover fire for the entry team as they assaulted the building (actually they were shooting helium filled balloons suspended about 4’ off the ground). The sniper team was clothed in their girlie suites and they lay prone in the tall grass waiting for the go to engage their assigned target. They had been on site for several hours and their sore and ant bitten muscles ached as they waited for the go code. Finally they got the green light (the PAC timer sounded) they fired. Before they could reacquire their target and confirm it was neutralized they heard a loud fooooom 10yds to their upwind side. As they recovered from the blast to their senses they were assaulted by the acrid stench of sulfur that made their noses run and their eyes water making scanning the target area difficult. “Area secure” the spotter finally called. Reset (the pact timer) and acquire the next target. The situation gelled again into the waiting game for the go. On the order to fire the same thing happened again. Jarring, smoke and the nauseating stench of sulfur all of it was like a nightmare. Finally the spotter looked up wind of their position and saw a man dressed from head to foot in buckskin with a coon skin cap. The man was holding a black powder rifle. The spotter was annoyed at the anachronism seated before him partially because of the impact the burnt black powder was having on the training but mostly because the “Mountain Man” had the audacity to shoot such a weapon from the sitting position and scoring hits at 300 yds. The spotter asked the “Mountain Man” to move down wind of their position. The “Mountain Man” ask “ ain’t you boys su-pos t’ train under arduous conditions with distractions and encumbrances”

“not if we don’t have to” was the spotters reply

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 22:33:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

FN is marketing a new sniper rifle, the FN Special Police Rifle. After disconnecting from the GIAT corporation, FN decided to design a sniper rifle again. The SPR is based on a controlled feed Winchester M70 action (Winchester is owned by FN) and is chambered for 7.62x51 NATO with a 4 round mag capacity. The barrel hardly has a taper to it, comes with a 1 in 12" twist and is chrome lined (yep, I know what you are thinking, I thought the same...). Judging by the realively poor picture a saw, the FN SPR is fitted with s HS Precision stock, much like the PSS. It comes with only one front swivel-stud and seems to have either a detacheable mag or a hinged floorplate. LOP and cheeckpiece are fixed.

Stefan out!

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, December 08, 1999 at 22:39:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.193.224)

As you may already know we have been kicking that dead horse of sorts regarding field gear. I have seen some great ideas and I like the concept of a bug out kit. My question is this; what is the criteria you used to design your kit? Did you have vehicle moble in mind or foot moble? I usually plan for the worst case scenario. Here in CA as you are well aware we have earthquakes, riots and from time to time terrible wild fires that ravage the place.
My point: I am designing a kit for emergencies that I may have to carry even in the worst of circumstances. I am also designing it so that if I do have to split I can grab and go. The only item that I have not seen discussed is body armor. I use a USGI flack vest of early 90's production that does well against most moderatly powered handguns and OO buck. I have also a mopp suit for emergency warmth. If you were in Desert Storm you know how WARM they are.
I have set a limit on weight for pack and for "Deuce" gear. 30pounds MAX for deuce gear and 55 pounds max for the pack. I am going to switch my LC2 Mountain pack for a civillian one, they are more comfortable. I have a cammo pack cover that I use along with a poncho liner to make a improvised rifle cover. I have xtra alice pack straps to secure it like a pack on the light excursion. It works great hunting too.

Anyone,
 

What is concidered a "arsenal" anyway? I hear of people being busted across the nation (about 6 or so) for being in posession of a "arsenal". Is it 5, 10, 20 how many guns? I thought they were just "discussing" the issue of arsenals. If you are in the LE field, can you shed some light? I collect antiques and Mausers, especially Orberndorf Mausers and a few Martinis and the like. I hate to be on the "news" (I use the term VERY loosly) for being the "Arch criminal with a 'arsena' of meuseum quality firearms". That would really suck! By the way the 8x68S is a nice one! Kicks too!

Happy Holidays EVERYONE! And I hope you are all safe and warm with your families. I certainly will. I lit a candle for those who fell at Pearl Harbor. If you have a chance to go and pay respect, please do. I think a lot of "Americans" seem to forget that WE were attacked. To those who fell, lest we forget. God bless America!
Semper Fi!
BK
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 01:57:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.15)

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 03:28:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 04:16:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.26)

Write for the Clintons... I'd rather scuba dive in a cess pool.
Actually, it would be the same thing, wouldn't it?

I do, from time to time, write for the good guys.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 04:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.48)

Seriously...I want a durable tough finish, one that I don't have to redo every other time I head into the woods or range, etc. Besides, I already have one rifle that looks like a "wooly rifle"
Thanks
Out Here !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
Not so Sunny, South, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 05:00:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.135.145)

Will,
I had my 700 bolt gun done in black teflon with an underlayment of nickel, this dis not include the stock. I've had the finish on for about a year, and it has held up fairly well to the usual field abuse. My barrel is stainless steal, and I wanted the same finish throughout the gun. This meant that bluing and parkerizing were not an option. So I had two choices, I could have it painted, or have it finished in black oxide as the Marines are currently doing on their guns. I chose to have it painted, as I was informed by knowledgeable people in the industry that the black oxide finish is not as durable as the teflon and I did not want to be constantly re-painting the thing with conventional spray paint. The finish is very weather resistant, it also has a little bit of a glossy tinge to it which developed after several months of wear and tear. It will chip if it's smacked against hard material such as rock(deer hunting), or concrete benches(fun at the range). These have been my experiences, just my thoughts.

Out here. Casey
Casey <caseyb@scs.unr.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 05:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.152.153)

An amigo is picking up a Remington 700 in .223 tomorrow. I know most of the feelings on this site is against .223 as a sniper round (and for good reason) but his is mostly going to be for crows, groundhogs, and paper. Can someone recommend good rounds? I had a VS a few years ago and could make little cloverleafs with 52 grain Match, but he wants more terminal effect and less ricochet potential than the match rounds. What about the V-Max, or others? What is the capability of the Blitz?

David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 10:10:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.13.141)

Bad Kharma-Haven't heard anything passing either on the "arsenal" thing. Dollars to donuts (I don't like 'em, so no donut jokes) if it IS, it's a local ordinance, or just in one or two states, (which is of course one or two too many.)

BTW, anyone heard about the naked guy cleaning house with the samurai sword in the UK? They're talking about banning samurai swords now... Makes you want to pick up an IRS agent and kill someone with him so they'll ban them, too, huh?
David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 10:29:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.13.141)

Later

Mark Smallwood
Mark Smallwood <texasjack46@yaahoo.com>
Cranfills Gap, TX, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 12:02:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.35.66.81)

Would someone please describe in some detail how you use the drag bag from the time you load it up til the time you shoot? My question is in relation to the stealthness needed, get stuff out of it, to haul the thing behind you and retrieve your weapon without being spotted and getting your head separated from your shoulders.

And in lieu of the bag, do you use a vest, pack or whatever to haul your STUFF to bad guy territory? If so, how do you keep from looking like you have a giant lump on your back?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 13:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Welcome! A Long action Sendero is definately on the right track!
 

Shotguns - YAWN!
 

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BYGAWD, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 13:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.27)

Its true about the naked swordman,he ran into a church and went nuts:stabbed multiple people

Fortunately a offduty copper subdued him with a pipe ripped from the chuch's organ.

P.S No-one died luckily.
Daniel <sniper_dude@aol.com>
England - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 14:02:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.154.16.101)

You asked a good question. I have read about how the drag-bag is employed, but have no practical experience, or training with it. I have talked to guys that have some training, and they say they ditch the pack in the woods, and take only the dragbag to the final firing point. They drag it between their legs with the frontend of it about even with their ankles, and use their feet to guide it along as they worm-crawl into position. Don't you think this would leave a big snail-trail? I don't have a dragbag yet so I can't try it and see what happens, I have tried sneaking/crawling/stalking through the woods outback, and it is a workout with any kind of equipment load.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 18:31:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.49)

I got E-mail from someone who recommended the Sightron. I read the review and have been looking at there 4x16x42 mil-dot unit. From what I see it is a good deal. I read that the mil-dot system is different than any others around. But I do not know how to use any of them yet. So this is not a big concern to me. The price is a lot better than the Leupold mil-dot system. I want a combination sniper varmint scope. I realize this is not the best way to go but it is the way I will be using it. Thanks

mingler <mingler@gte.net>
seattle, wa, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 21:16:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.13.226.14)

Steve Mason <ignite90@hotmail.com>
New Hope, PA, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 21:22:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.164.166.230)

Thanks for the notice about the MSNBC article on Clinton's threat to the Gun Industry. I think he is trying to force the Firearms Companies to hurry up and settle with the Cities that are trying to sue them. Several lawsuits against the firearms industry have already been dismissed by the courts, and this troubles our Pres.
Alan Gottleib of the NRA Institute for Legislative Action is counter-sueing these cities. We need to offer our support to the NRA-ILA. They are out front fighting the battles.

Best Regards,
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, December 09, 1999 at 23:57:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.152)

Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 00:10:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.57)

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 02:31:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

There are no "cadets" at the Benning Sniper school and the Orange spray paint is a stupid idea. Its not used so much as a tool to correct problems as it is used to harrass students. Almost every student gets painted the first inspection. If you want to critque a student you can do it without ruining what work he has done. The paint is almost impossible to remove. 4 years later and I can still find some on my Ghillie. Oh and yes I did pass. Honor grad and high shooter. But I guess I held my class back.

Once you've passed the course then you can have an opinion on the course. Till then, stay in your own paygrade.

By the way hotrod, the current Ft Benning Sniper School opened in 1987.

Have a nice day.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 02:41:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.151)

You asked about moly. There is a new product FASTEX being used by the shooters on the www.varminthunters.com chat message board. It is easier to apply than moly and seems to work well by the reports made. There was an article on Fastex in the Varmint Hunter Magazine that recieved some criticsm for the writers being to close to the product. Warrants watching for a little while to see what happens.

http://www.varminthunters.com/fastex.html

Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, Florida, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 03:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.70.18.55)

Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
Very South Tip of , Texas, - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 04:19:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.247.107.208)

The Russian's have seen fit to make a suppressed .22lr built around their 'Sobol' action which is a straight-pull action.
Have they thought this up by them selve's,No they are coping what the 'Rebel's' have been using against them in Urban area's,Russian Sobol .22lr rifle's with home made silencer's,sometime's just a 1.5 litre empty soft drink bottle.
With more and more Battle's being waged in Citie's etc,are the Russian's onto something?

Comment's anyone
 
 

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 05:10:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.181)

Anybody else ever tried one of these on a .22. I had heard of this years ago, and while on active duty tried it on one of our ranges. I used a 2 liter bottle, and didn't notice any significant reduction in noise, which leads me to believe that the sonic boom constitutes most of the noise from a .22. Anyway, I passed it off as another myth.

Pat T.
Pat T. <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 06:10:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

Try using subsonic ammo,

Two companie's in NZ make very good silencer's for .22lr rifle's,using PVC plastic tubing,the kind you use for plumbing.
Using up to 2" dia,offcentre design,single chamber,telescoping,the offcentre is so you can use the iron sight's,all held on with a hose clamp.They are not quite as good as a Parker-Hale (steel can) but are very cheap and light weight.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 07:42:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.193)

I own a target grade Vostok CM-2 in 22 Lr with a barrel that is about 27-28" long. With ammo that stays subsonic (due to long barrel most normal velocity ammo stays subsonic) this rifle is VERY quiet as is without any suppressors. The noice can be describeb to be like the snapping of a thick and dry twig. Of course this rifle is very easily suppressed so that the only noise heard is basically the firing pin hitting the round and the bullet hitting the target. In asuppressed 22 Lr very often the loudest noise heard is the bullet hitting the target.

In Grosny (spelling?) the first time Russians drove in in APCs without any infantry support. They got shredded and if you think about how much noise these APC´s and shooting makes, you realize that a subsonic 22 lr rifle does not need any suppressor at all under those circumstances. Of course a suppressor increases the odds in the shooters havour, but I think these Russian suppressed weapons are designed more for regular police type of work where they shoot the lights out of street lamps and maybe guard dogs when they prepare for a house assault to catch hardened criminals.

Russia already has in use a special suppressed semiauto sniper rifle and a suppressed full-auto assault rifle in a special calibre 9X39. The bullet is extra hard (tungsten ?) and even though it is subsonic, it penetrates normal "bullet proof" vests out to 150 meters. So I do not think a suppresser 22 Lr will become anyone´s ultimate secret weapon. At least not in a war. 22 lr is not very powerful and most of the time one can count only to wound with it. Of course in a war wounding is also better than nothing.

All in all, I do not think Russian special forces will have much use of a suppressed 22 Lr in Tsetshenia because they have better (more powerful, longer effective range)suppressed weapons already in stock. The Tshetsenians probably have to use also 22 Lr rifles because those specialty suppressed weapons in 9X39 probably are not widely distributed among the Tsehtsenian forces.

BTW weapons in 22 lr with regular non-jacketed bullets might be against international laws due to the fact that 22 Lr deforms quite well when used against "soft targets". In Tsehtsenia this probably does not matter as genocide is also forbidden in international treaties, and nobody really increases their voice about it either. Still I have not heard of even one conviction from the use of 22 Lr in war against the interantional treaties, so this is probably mostly a hypothetical idea. Comments ??

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 08:11:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Good call on the .22 rimfire. We used them along with the US Allies during all wars since WW II probably up to current date.

I believe it was Rex Applegate that suggested L-E use suppressed .22 rifles to lungshoot riot leaders in the 1960's
Good Idea Really...............

The Mossad has used them for quite a while as have most other "Intelligence" groups.

Like you said "International Law" only applies when its politically correct to do so.

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 13:03:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.181)

Old Dog [asserting firmly his rights under the 5th]
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 16:23:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Sniper Country is already ahead of you buddy! But thanks for the heads up though! I have one, as soon as it is available, for a Sniper Country review. I am really looking forward to it because FN claims to have found a way to evenly coat the bore with chrome. They state that it will be as accurate as other contempory non-chrome lined rifles. Should be interesting to see if it pans out.

Hopefully the promised rifle will come through and we will have a review on it this winter. I got to hold it on Thursday at the Philly tactcal show. Nice rifle.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 20:27:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

The rifle seems to hold up well at long range although I have not shot on paper beyond 200. It has made solid hits in wind out to 1000 yards so I can not complain. This help?

On a side note. I had the pleasure of meeting Kelly McMillan Thursday. A very nice gentleman indeed. I got to see his current line up close. Any of you looking to restock your Savage tacticals are best advized to give him a buzz. He has quite a selection for it, and just about any other rifle you'd expect to see in the "tactical" field. Plus a load of sporting stocks to boot.

Also picked up the new OTIS cleaning kits being issued to the Army for the M16 and M4. PLUS the new OTIS kit for the M40 series sniper rifle and possibly the M24. Excellent stuff! Review to follow.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 20:38:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

I'm working on a new Bibliography (a reading list, if you live in Rio Linda) for Sniper Country, and If you know of anything that would apply, please let me know.

Subjects should relate to Sniping, and long range shooting...
Historic, Equipment, Tactics, Ghillie suits, Technical, FM's and TM's, survival, tracking, military stuff, novels, biographies, movies (entertainment or instructional), etc.

Please include title, publisher, id number, (source, if military) anything else you can...

Please send it to me via e-mail, with "SC Bib!" in the subject line, so it doesn't get mixed up with the junk e-mail.

Thanks…

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, December 10, 1999 at 21:35:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.118)

Note: The Dutch "Michelin Man" sleeping system didn't work worth a damn for me.

Last item for bug-out kit: The good casio altimeter watch. They are very useful for navigation. Shoot an azmuth to one point and know your elevation, you know where you are. If fog rolls in, you can easily navigate by elevation alone. Its also a good way to navigate through heavy trees in the mountains.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 11, 1999 at 01:52:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.13)

I would like some help please. I am interested in beginning long range shooting. This interest came about after I bought an Ishapore Enfield in .308 for plinking and discovered it would consistently outshoot my deer rifle. Anyway, at the moment I am more interested in finding a place to shoot and some friendly shooters that would help me in selecting hardware than which rifle is the best, what scope, etc. Anyone in the Space Coast area of Florida?
 

Thanks and best wishes,
Puck <typhoon7@mindspring.com>
Melbourne, FL, USA - Saturday, December 11, 1999 at 03:43:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.69.113.240)

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Tuesday, December 14, 1999 at 22:19:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

NSW
T.R.G.T.
Tactical & Survival Specialties

Any thoughts, comparisons, recommendations?

Thanks.
Lee Crestling <shooter7@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 03:06:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.214.30.118)

Vihta Vouri is great stuff at about 43.5 to 43.9 grs, I like the load you got...................

Works for Me!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG STILL RANINING CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 04:40:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.33)

Do I have body armor?

How many sniper rounds do I get to carry?

One on one, multiple targets, or not specified?

Answer to follow.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 07:01:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Answer: Good rifle for offense, 1911 for defense.

And fix me a sandwich. I'll be right back.

Oooooh...

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 07:31:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.112)

Thanks.

P. Marcos
P.Marcos <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, -, Portugal - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 07:38:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.55.184.44)

Next Question: Anyone know anything about the Israeli's using M1Garands fitted with PVS2's? What kind of mounts and accessories did they use? Did they have any sucess.Reason I ask is my rifle is chambered in 30.06 and I am considering the Garand as a viable spotters weapon.
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 08:10:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.43)

Thursday is public holiday here and we're going away directly after work tomorrow, coming back Saturday afternoon. So I'll only respond to those who send me anything on Saturday night soonest.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 08:36:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.198.15)

I am not going to change the order on this one, but have changed the script to create a duplicate Duty Roster, only in reverse order. If you point your browsers to the Sniper Country Duty Roster in Reverse Chronological Order, you should be pleased. (Hope that works.)

But please note that I will not keep the archives in this sequence. Come archive time I'll just delete the relevant entries from the Reverse order Duty Roster. Also, to make my life in maintenance easier, entry will only be allowed on THIS Duty Roster, and not on the reverse-order one.

When I next work on the Roster I will also put up a link right at the top.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 08:42:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.198.15)

Rod? Gooch?

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 09:14:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.40)

What's this crap about "no rules gun fights"... You gotta' have rules, this is America. Think of all the lawyers and politicians that wouldn't have jobs if there weren't any rules.

It works like... you kick in a door, and the perp has a stock .45 and you have a IPSC Full Race Gun... the Judge lets him off, cuz you had an unconstitutional advantage... see what I mean?
You catch him at a 7-11 an midnight, and he has a 22 revolver, and you have a Browning 9mm...
Two violations... you got a bigger gun, and you got more bullets... so two against you. The Judge lets him off, PLUS you gotta' pay his cab fair home... you're startin' to catch on!

Now... it works the other way too... you kick in the door, and you have a whimpy Glock 9mm, and he has 12 gauge... not fair, since he has the advantage... but he shoots you and he goes home, Cuz there's no living witness' left.
Now you've got... he always goes home, and you always loose!!

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 09:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.49)

All these rules makes me want to go back to shooting a TC contender in 218 Bee.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 09:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

"Kubiashi Maru"
(sorry if you don't know the reference)
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 10:08:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 11:34:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.177.58.50)

To Bill R.
Ever watch a 10 year old kid bust 25 straight clay birds traveling about 70 mph, about 40 to 50 yards from the firing line? A two legged target cant travel that fast.
I'll take a shotgun.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 11:57:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.254)

I'll take the 1911, if you don't mind. As previous posters have pointed out, it's a real B!tc# to by lugging around two long guns with different ammo. The range and armor penetrating capacity of the sniper rifle (I choose the M21) makes it the primary weapon. What I'm looking for is a backup - i.e. something you shouldn't need unless the air circulating device has been fouled. The shotgun is a bit too big and heavy for that.

Now if we are talking about a two man team, the answer is different. While both members have pistols of some sort (1911, tupperware, M9's, Webley-Fosbery's), does the second guy carry a carbine or a shotgun as his primary weapon? There are advantages/disadvantages to both. My opinion is that the shotgun wins out because it maximizes TEAM versatility.

Just my take.
 

Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 12:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

'Lito: good reason to "make sure the attack was stopped" as our local police cheif told me (you go home, he assumes room temperature). Hey, he wouldn't quit attacking (moving), so I didn't quit shooting! At least that was the answer to the question "how much is too much". I think the "good gun / bad gun" thing is WAY over rated. Most of us won't HAVE to shoot. Just having it, "brandishing" it, and proper attitude should suffice. Who WANTS to tangle with a guy pointing a "whimpy Glock 9mm" at you? If it does come to it, and the shooting is truly richeous, the jury will go with you regardless of what you used. Only in questionable cases does it enter, and I try to stay out of those situations. Robbie and the bag-o-nike? And besides, I take that "whimpy Glock 9mm" personally :-O
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
High desert plains, Utah, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 13:30:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.161)

Looking for a .308 load for the 175grn. Seirra MKHP using VarGet (I've got a bunch of it). I've got a great load for the 168 grn. but not sure where to start with the 175 grn.
Thanks
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 13:31:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.32)

Out here.

Casey

Casey <caseyb@scs.unr.edu>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 14:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.153.6)

Man can I stir it or what!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 16:33:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.109)

Thanks
Tom <rtaiken@yahoo.com>
Fremont, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 17:04:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.1.106.29)

I have a question about proper break in procedures for a new barrel.
I'll soon have the pleasure of doing this for the first time and I would appreciate any advice. I'am sure this has been covered here before so I leave it to your discretion weather to post your response or send me an e-mail. Thanks
Paul J. Martoccia <pmartoc@sprynet.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 17:49:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.170.128)

Situation: If you've got the sniper rifle, why are you foolin' around w/ either the pistol or the shotgun??? Creep into a good position to observe the area, while watching your own back. Be patient. Wait. Watch. When you see him (or her), shoot. Then extract.

Carry the .45 because it's less to lug around than the shotgun.

If you're out of rounds for the rifle, and extraction prior to removal of this opponent is not possible (forcing you to fall back and use the backup arm): I have to say that it depends on YOU! I like my shotgun, but I know that I suck with one. I like my .45, and can hit things much easier and more accurately with it. For ME, it's the .45 hands down. Someone else here, I'm sure, had better go with the shotgun instead of the pistol. It's personal.

Shoot, I'd rather have a radio myself, just call in and direct F/A-18 fire onto their ass.....

-L
Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
VA-TN, USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 18:00:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.173)

As for the HK MP5...not unless it is .45 cal. No more of this spray & pray stuff. I'll load the scattergun w/ Brenneke slug and #4 buck and have the .45 as a "back-up" heh heh heh

To all who have responded about what finish on my rifle, thanks, Now then...has anyone worked with GunKote??
Out Here
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 20:57:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.129.73)

One sniper only:
I think a sniper is most of the time better of with a sniper rifle (usually a bolt action) and a pistol (preferably with a snap-op silencer). This is0due to the fact that a lone sniper should not, I repeat, should not enter into close range gun fights if at all possible. If I am going to attack something close and personal, I will leave my sniper rifle home thank you. And then I would choose an assault rifle or a SMG over any shotgun. This is maybe a bit prejudiced, but fast reloadability, easy shooting, more pentration and lighter ammo come to my mind in favor of rifles and/or SMG´s over any shotgun.

Sniper team:
Sniper has his rifle, both men have their pistols with at least one suppressor if at all possible. The spotter should have a semiauto or fullauto rifle with some optics. Here in Finland where we use 7.62X39 as our assault rifle ammo and the shooting ranges usually are less than 500 metres, a scoped Valmet RK62 or Sako RK95 assault rifle with a low-power (4X?) scope with a QD-mount would suffice.In the USA a AR-15 or M-16, M-4 or M203 would be the ticket due to ammo and and spare part availability. The rifle could be equipped with a suppressor in order to make it harder to spot the firing position, but one can live without a suppressor too. In a rifle firing full-power ammo a suppressor will only hide the firing position, but not the fact that a rifle has been used. This has two positive aspects: 1) the attacking party knows that someone tries to shoot them 2) they do not know where precisely this fire comes from. This should slow them down somewhat.

MP-5 ? I do not think a spotter would like to have a mere 9 mm squirt gun if problems arise. Of course a suppressed MP-5 SD could be usefull sometimes, but a silenced 9mm SMG is not very good in defensive shooting. It lacks power and its noise signature is so low that the attackers do not even hear it if they shoot their own assault rifles.-> They would not care about this shooting, unless someone is hit. Myabe the sniper could have a MP-5k PDW instead of his pistol, but it would make life more difficult than a pistol. In any case a mere 9 mm SMG as the "heavy firepower" of the team is not very wise.

Shotguns ? No thanks. Ammo is heavy, effective range is pretty short (unless custom shotguns with Vang comps and the like), recoil is pretty heavy. Only slugs have effect against bodyarmor (momentum works, even in cases where the slugs do not penetrate) and then you lose the shot-spread advantage of the shotgun. Saiga-12 or Saiga-20 would be possible models, as they have a robust self-loading mechanism (AK-47 style), military version have folding stocks and the rifle can be loaded with fast-changing magazines. This way you can reload faster and change ammo from slugs to buckshot and back.

I have thought about arming the sniper with a folding-stock assault rifle. The idea would be, that when using a drag bag the sniper rifle is in the bag and the assault rifle in hand. And when sniper rifle is used, the assault rifle is in the bag. Of somewhat similar methods I have read in Vietnam era books, where the USMC sniper team had both sniper rifles AND M-14 rifles for every member of the team. This way they could fight both short and long range figths. Problem is that you can not go very far as you have to leave most of your gear to the camp. This two rifle concept works probably only for short time assignments close to the base camp.

In any case the sniper team should try to avoid short range fights as their equipment does not offer any advantages over any AK-47/74 at close range. The idea with a sniper rifle is to shoot from such a long distance that the receiving party can not fight you with regular weapons even if they knew where you are. (Of course artillery fire, anti-tank missiles and helicopter rockets and cannon fire are always possible and camouflage is of utmost importance.) In short range contacts all advantages are lost, of course snipers usually have cooler heads and shoot better, but basically you give away you advantages if you let the enemy fight you at close range.-> Move wisely and use camouflage and the risk is limited, if not totally removed.

Take care.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, December 15, 1999 at 21:28:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Sorry to interrupt your game of 12 gauge and .45 tag.

Does anyone have a source for powdered magnesium ???????

I did see some at an SOF convention last year, but cant get a hold of the dealer.

t
torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
germany - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 00:15:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.120)

Heckler & Koch G 36, not only my choice, but issued !

light, fire power, scoped, red dot sight, folding stock, attachable mags, and you can wear it hands free on your back like a ruck/biathalon style.

Had one with me all last weekend wore it on my back even over the ghillie.

I´ll go with the new development instead of the dinosaurs of the last century.

t
torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
Germany - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 00:41:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.118)

Any helpfull hints would be appreciated, as these 300 Win Mag seem to shoot their best when the 190 grain MK's are really smoking out of the barrel. It's getting hard to work up a load when I've gotta rest my shoulder for 2 days after shooting 40 round one day.
the Judge <etexjudge@justice.com>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 01:05:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.129.164.162)

1911 or 870?

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 01:29:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.43)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 01:42:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.43)

Potassium and glycerin works well to, and you dont need a flint !

have the potassium (also good for many other things like water purification) in a 30 mm film canister and the glycerin in a oiler.

t
torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
germany - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 04:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.118)

Give me the superior tactics/intel and I'll take the less effective of the .45 vs shotgun debate, and I'll win. My point was...it matters more how you setup the engagement than what toy you bring.

I constantly change the rules of engagement to win. I fight fires, extricate injured people from motor vehicles and mitigate HazMat incidents for fun. Every one of these scenarios set you up to lose by default. Winners come home, losers get hurt....same thing in combat...right?
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 05:49:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Thanks
Chris <chrisj@sunflower.com>
Lawrence, KS, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 06:43:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.124.0.11)

1. Not fighting by Marquis of Queensbury: Good. Cheat first, cheat fast, cheat vigorously until the issue is settled.

2. JOOTS is Capm’ Kirk’s trick: Jump Outside Of The System. This is what Jim Mitchell does. Its smart.

3. Assuming a problem condition is different than it is: The Economist stuck in the well assumes a ladder. This one is a no-go. But, in order to get out, we first assume it can be done.

Bill’s problem statement specifys (1911 v 870) as a constraint. Doesn't matter. It’s fun to watch these threads unravel.
 
 
 
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 07:46:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.10)

The 45 is so light why not carry it in addition to the shotgun?
For that matter why not carry a car with a shogun mounted below the barrel?
Or better yet a grenade launcher.
Or even better a rocket launcher.

Man the cold medicine must be getting to me

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 11:21:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Does anyone have a comment on the use of the 357 SIG as a tactical sidearm caliber? It matches the .357 Mag, ballistically, and should nicely blend the advantages of the 9mm and .45 in the way of modest ammo weight, semi-auto operation, good knock-down power, very good accuracy.

Comments?

Semper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 11:25:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.189)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 15:56:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.156)

Listen to what Dave L. speaks of, for it is gospel.

Ed <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
NY, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 16:50:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.154.15.61)

Learned some about site prep for ambushes, seems this scenario would be ripe for it. As much as I truly hated digging those odd positions for that stupid dragon, I think something just like it would be great for multiple targets. Or I could be off my crock. Hey pro's: what kind of positions you REALLY dig? Just little spider holes, or next to nothing? How about the dirt? We just tossed it, but it could be seen. WHADDA YA DO?

Roger Lays: Ballistics ALMOST 357. Or as good as 9X21, or peppy 38 super, or major 9 para. I know a guy that HAD to get the new Sig. Lots-o-jams. He did his own ammo though, and I suspect that over a bad sig any day. Besides, if you shoot anything with a bore less than 429, they make fun of you :-)

Torsten: VWR (Van Waters, Rogers) has enough to melt tanks. Same for Alfa Aesar, GFS, etc. If you have access to shipyards, I can get you a lovely recipe for incendiary. Still needs a light (mag ribbon is great), but burns SUPER hot. Makes it's own fuel too, and burn hotter in water. Got German address for VWR if interested.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 18:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.149)

Honorable mention to all the scenerio butchers who turned a simple gun battle between 2 cowboys into a 911 emergency or a sniper mission presumably out of reverence to the site.

Last but by no means least was Utgardaloki who ended the whole mess in Nuclear splendor worthy of the fiasco.
 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 18:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Point of impact vs. sunlight position/height

Our team was training the other day. We were shooting at targets at 100 and 200 yards. Our targets were 1 moa diamond shapes. The sun was low on the horizon, it was 9:00 AM. Our targets were at the 12 o'clock position, the sun was bright and at the 10-11 position. There was no wind, the temp was 20 degrees.

Three of us shot and at each range, our groups were .75-1 moa right of our target.

**Question!!!!! Did the sunlight position/height affect our perception of the target location??? or is there something else to explain what happened??? Interested in your comments.

Tim

Tim <osceolapd1@cji.net>
osceola, wi, USA - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 20:40:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 150.208.112.180)

Suppressed pistol or SMG,by choice's,HK P-7 has fixed barrel,uneffected by suppressor weight,in SMG's the L34 Sterling,MP-5SD,Mini-Uzi or the new HK UMP.
In the Falkland's some sniper's carried the Sterling instead of a pistol,and some of their observer's carried L34 suppressed Sterling's,to eliminate trouble if surprised at close quarter's.
The pistol ,SMG and most importantly the Sniper Rifle should all have a good suppressor mounted or available,too disreguard their use and application because of individual attitude's toward's ownership by certain countrie's,is to ignore both history and technology.
As reguardless of the legal issue's in your country,silencer's are very ,very easly made by almost any fitter/turner,they are after all just a muffer for a gun instead of for the car.
I tend to favour the pistol, Welrod anyone.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 20:46:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.164)

Q:
How do you like the new G36? I've seen footage of it with the fellows
deployed to Bosnia, and it looks very compact. Any problems with the dot sight (brightness/battery life)?

A:
The red dot has a slide open cover, for day operation, has a fancy LISA plastic light collector that powers the sight during daytime. works 70 % of the weather we have here, then you can always turn on the diode, and by pressing the button you can increase the light output for 30 seconds , then it goes back to normal again.

I find it a little to bright at night, and the dot size covers a siluette at 300 meters, so it is purely a short range, both eyes open, head´s up(its the topmost sight) snap shot tool. Any further engagements would be shot with the scope (at the bottom for stock weld), which is practical for this type of rifle.
Battery live is about 48 hours continous on, which I think sucks big time as there is no automatic off if you forget it. But we have shot with little calyume sticks (peanut) taped over the light collector.

Also you can zero the G 36 with one round like the sheperd scopes. one sight adjusted on the point of aim, the other on the bullet impact, and then both on point of impact.

t
torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
germany - Thursday, December 16, 1999 at 20:52:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.119)

Where does one get the experience we all reference endlessly? C'mon, let's hear some ideas. I still think running as an inner city cop or medic gives you some excellent "my butt is on the line, confrontation training". If you haven't done it, you shouldn't make fun of it, cause it's no game. Some of these folks are sharp as razors...many have been shot at.
 
 
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 04:43:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
B.C., Canada - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 08:55:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.27.219.228)

In short, one gets experience from on the job training.
Training is a lot like a tool chest. You can go out and buy a lot of tools and have a great workshop but if you never build (or destroy) anything the money you spent on the tools is wasted. By the same token you may have impressive physical and mental potential but if you have low quality tools to work with you cannot do your assigned tasks effectively. So tools, training and physical/mental prowess are just one half of the equation. The other half is spending time in the “workshop” doing the task that needs to be done. A basic understanding of some simple tools is necessary to begin effectively gaining experience. As the numbers of experiences grow more complex tools can be utilized to better solve more complex problems. So there needs to be a balanced relationship between personal experience, tools, skill and training.
My answer to your question is intentionally vague because I wanted you to be able to identify with some universal truths.

I tend to make fun of some things because it seems they were thought up just to sell gun magazines.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 11:46:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Does anyone know of any branch of military, manufactuor or anyone period that has, is or is considering developing sabot-type rounds for use as sniper ammunition or in sniper applications.

I am doing some research into this and have been able to locate no information so far and so I'm asking you all for ANY information or input that you can provide.

BTW, the M903 SLAP (Saboted Light Armor Penetrator) round or M962 SLAP-T is not what I am looking for. They had tested versions in 7.62mm and .50 cal but settled on the 50 due and axed the 7.62 due, supposedly, to catastrophic barrel failures due to in-bore break-up of the sabot and the penetrator puncturing the side of the barrel. (whoops!)

I know that someone will comment, "Yea, they tried that already with the ACR and its flechettes and they have poor accuracy and poor terminal ballistics."

I'm aware of the previous tests but belive that by properly incorporating CMC's or MMC's (Ceramic Matrix Composites, Metal Matrix Composites) into the front portion of a (high density metal) sabot, the terminal ballistics would be improved without spoiling the external ballistics and accuracy of the round.

I think that range, accuracy, and terminal ballistics *could* potentially be dramatically improved in a well engineered and constructed sabot projectile versus the conventional bullet shape we have now.

If anyone could comment on this via Duty Roster or email I would appreciate it. - Thanks!
{Sorry if this sounds like a college paper, I'm just finishing up finals week for the semester.}
Colin <DeltaVKPS@hotmail.com>
omaha, Ne, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 12:57:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.48.19.114)

cheers,
Shakes
Shakes <redroom98@hotmail.com>
NH, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 13:04:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.138.215)

One is a "Sniper Finder"

~Uh oh.....

http://www.aaicorp.com/defense/em/pdc.htm

http://w3.pica.army.mil/ccac/ccl/ccl-b/devteam/M118long.JPG
Colin <deltavkps@hotmail.com>
omaha, ne, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 13:14:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.48.19.114)

Shakes: Welcome. And UUUGGHHH. I'm sure more is to come. I DID say Welcome. Everyone knows that you top a good Ruu with a tasco, right? :-) (See 'Lito, I -CAN- joke!)

Torsten: thermite makes a great fire starter. Melts through an engine block in less than 5 seconds, about the size of half cup of coffee. Show 'em that and watch 'em wet their pants.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City , Utah, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 14:25:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.134)

"There is nothing so exhilerating as being shot at and missed"

Winston Churchill
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 15:15:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.160)

I want a .300 Win mag to use on everything from Prairie dogs to Antelope to Elk and 1000m targets. I'm posting here because you guys know what it takes to make consistent hits in the field at unknown ranges.

I'm Considering a new Remington PSS/DM for $690 or a new Winchester Laredo (w/BOSS?) for $550.

The local gunsmith is recommending the PSS because he
USAF E6 <nospam@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 04:16:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.67.3.155)

I want a .300 Win mag to use on everything from Prairie dogs to Antelope to Elk and 1000m targets. I'm posting here because you guys know what it takes to make consistent hits in the field at unknown ranges.

I'm Considering a new Remington PSS/DM for $690 or a new Winchester Laredo (BOSS?) for $550.

The local gunsmith is recommending the PSS because he "can do more with the 700 action".

A friend told me that the Winchester is a better rifle and a better deal if I'm not going to do any modifications. Plus he wants me to get the BOSS so I'll have more "options" in bullet weights.

Not sure if a stock PSS or Laredo will give me the accuracy for 1000m shooting. I'm told they'll shoot 1 moa, but I find it hard to believe that a factory rifle is capable of 10 inch groups at 1000 yards.

All comments appreciated.

USAF E6 <nospam@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 04:20:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.67.3.155)

Ken :)

ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 04:21:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.40)

To Colin, some cut and paste stuff for you to ponder.

The Swedish Armed Forces have adopted a sabot round for their snipers.
It is a 4.81mm tungsten carbide round fired in a sabot case. This round exits the barrel at over 4400 fps. There is a degradation of accuracy (About 33%) but the time of flight to 1000m is almost half of the standard 7.62x51mm. This was a tradeoff that the Swedish Armed Forces viewed as acceptable.
Courtesy of Mels Sniper page.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 05:05:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.26)

Took two deer with this bullet. bullet performance was deadly. both exit wounds were close to 1.5 inch in diameter. the tissue inbetween was mush.

Thanks
recon
recon <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 06:10:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.56)

When I was shot at there was no build up to the moment. One moment status quo the next rounds are incoming.

The later will deffinitly get the pucker factor going.
However training and personality traits play an important role in how a person will react to a crisis. I too have worked with very sharp fire/ems people who were all but worthless when the shit hit the fan.
Some on the other hand can keep cool and function well. One man i know does some of his best work under great pressure.

Col. Cooper thinks staying in the proper frame of mind to detect problems before they suprise you is an advantage. I have to agree.
recon
recon <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 06:32:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.56)

What about .264 WinMag ? It should be a quite good fast 6.5 calibre. Of course 6.5-285 might be better, but in 264 you can more easily form needed brass from 300 WinMag which is plenty available. 6.5-284 can not be EASILY formed from any other brass as you have to turn the rim down in a lathe. How do these two calibres compare to each other accuracy and powerwise ? Comments ?
 

Sako & Lapua Brass.

It is as Hans already said: Sako produces its own high quality brass, but that IS NOT the same what Lapua produces. In this part of the world, and among the bench rest crowd Lapua brass is considered to be the best available. In Finland Lapua is the choice of BR people too, but Sako is considered to be on the same quality level. Norma should be qualitywise quite close, but maybe not up to par in the same calibres.

Norma brass is considered to be in the Federal Gold Medal class, but below Lapua Match Grade. BTW Norma produces several specialty calibres (Weatherby Magnums, 6.5-284 WinMag, various big bore calibres and so on), which are not produced by Lapua or Sako, or even Federal for that matter.-> In specialty calibres like 338-378 Weatherby Norma is the way to go.

Qualitywise I put the companies to this order:
1. Lapua
2. Sako
3. Norma
(those above are actually almost equally good)
4. Federal Gold Metal Match Brass

One should also consider that usually companies producing only one type of product, is usually better in that area than companies that produce several different product categories. In that light Lapua, Norma and Federal as ammo-only-companies stand out.

If I would try to load a 308 target load here in Finland I would choose components as follows: Lapua brass, Sierra 175 MK´s, CCI primers and Vihtavuori powders. In the USA I might try Varget too, but it is unavailable here. I would of course try Lapuas Scenars in 167 grains and Lapuas Lock-Bases in 170 grains. BTW Sako uses nowadays in their 300 WinMag and 308 Win target loads Sierra 168 MK´s only.

In 338 Lapua Magnum I will use Lapua brass, Lapua bullets (250 grain Scenar HPBT), Vihtavuori N170 powder and CCI 215 primers.

Boxer-primed 7.62X53R/7.62X54R brass: Lapua produces a very high quality boxer primed brass for this Mosin-Nagant calibre. If you want the best possible components, order these through the importer if they do not stock this brass. One can question wheather this matters much in a mass-produced military rifle, so once-shot (in your own rifle) brass from Norma is probably as good as you reasonably might need.

Best regards,

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 09:00:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

In "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights", Officer Jim Cirillo describes in detail the qualities he looked for in a gunfighter under the conditions in which he operated. Some of those qualities are surprising.

General James Gavin, who commanded the 82nd Airbourne through-out the second world war had a very simple criterion. He said that, if someone was willing to parachute, they would fight. If they were unwilling to parachute, they would not fight. That sounds crazy, but Jumpin’ Jim would know.

The U.S. Navy has put a considerable amount of resources into predicting who has the tendency to process information rapidly in very high-risk, very high-speed environments. In "The Right Stuff", Tom Wolfe describes those efforts and the results. Several years ago, Playboy published an article (I only bought it for the articles) called "The Psyche and The Starting Grid." In the article, the author extended the Navy "Right Stuff" thesis to race drivers. If it can be found, it is worth reading. (And say ‘Hello’ to Miss May for me.)

Ayoob says that hunters and competitive shooters are effective in combat due to their being accustomed to shooting and hitting while under stress.

Ltc. Cooper ideas have been mentioned. He says that no student who has attended his famous "Wednesday Afternoon Lecture" has ever failed when, in his words, "the balloon has gone up". I believe that Gunsite sells a video tape of the lecture. One of his many ideas is that the properly trained shooter is able to pay full attention to the technical problem at hand, thus fear is crowded out. He agrees that hunters are effective, and says that mountaineers and race-drivers are also effective. The following link contains his somewhat random thoughts on this, and every other subject that occupies an interesting and amusing man. JeffCooper

The above referenced materials discuss ‘hot-combat’. That is a different subject than the sniper’s mind-set.
 
 
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 16:17:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.18)

I have been looking for a used BDL to buy for the action, but the used prices for a BDL are more than the new prices for an ADL at Wal-Mart.
Thanks.

Tom
Tom Aiken <rtaiken@yahoo.com>
Fremont, CA, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 17:35:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.212.203.143)

I find it difficult to believe that an effective fighter can be manufactured in one day. I have not been to this lecture.

reacting calmly and with focus during life threatening situations is one thing, but putting a bullet on it's mark is another. In trying times, I am perfectly capable of calmly missing my target 

Alas, it's back to the range this weekend, to practice, practice, practise
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 19:11:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Col. Cooper ran an excellent school, but no one day lecture will ever make a fighter out of you. Statistics will tell you that he has trained a fairly small number of students and the ones he has trained are motivated types and less likely to freeze when called upon. they showed the drive to go to the class. Probably his record is more a tribute to his students than his lecture.

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 21:21:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.138.60)

Col. Cooper ran an excellent school, but no one day lecture will ever make a fighter out of you. Statistics will tell you that he has trained a fairly small number of students and the ones he has trained are motivated types and less likely to freeze when called upon. they showed the drive to go to the class. Probably his record is more a tribute to his students than his lecture.

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 21:21:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.138.60)

I'll take door number three, Monty.

I have no intention of getting in an argument with anyone here. My intention is to share some resources that may be of interest.

And I will certainly agree with you that you can't tell by lookin'.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 22:05:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.90)

David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 22:53:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.13.68)

Shakes
shakes <redroom98@hotmail.com>
NH, USA - Friday, December 17, 1999 at 23:56:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.180.179.228)

Failing that, intense, repetitive, realistic training, both as an individual and as a team member is the key to success.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 02:59:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

To all: I just bought NRA memberships for two more family members and extended my own. I would sure like to see 4,000,000 members by election time next November.

Gooch said, "Shotguns, yawn!". Sure got a way with words, ain't he?
 

PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 03:42:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.166)

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 04:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.63)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 05:58:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Before the coup that dethroned him, I seem to remember Cooper claiming a score of two-hundred-and-twenty-something to, I think, three. Please understand that it is no insult to anyone that I am elaborately suspicious of numbers that I don't collect. Reread that statement five times before you flame me. The story I got is that one 499 student got Bonnie-and-Clyded in Guatamala or something. A bunch of guys with squirt-guns (sorry Sarge) rose up from behind a hedge. They caught him at the same stop sign that he stopped every day. Should have paid attention in class. Another guy, (a 250) got into it good somewhere in Africa. When they got him it was four or five to one. Can't remember the last incident.

So, to repeat, I do not trust this data. I would like it updated and cleansed before making any inferrences from it. And the people who A: Attend Ltc Cooper's classes AND B: get in gunfights are not a random sample of the population. So I am positively not claiming that any mama's boy who shows up to class with the centerfold from this month's "American Handgunner" is going to leave as Wild Bill Hickcock's daddy.

And last, the reason for the post that got me up to my eye balls in this muck, is to refer those interested to materials they may find of use. I didn't write those materials. I have not verified those materials. I am not defending those materials. I wish I had never heard of those materials.

Good show with the three you trained!!

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 18, 1999 at 05:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.6)