December 1998

James M.
I Believe the Remington VS has a 1-12 twist any way that is what they advertise..
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 00:31:24 (EST) 

im delurked!! can we have a discussion on tactical knives on here again again like you said we could ?

kudu
kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 12:13:15 (EST) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 13:22:21 (EST) 

I'd just like to tell you that Elmine was born this afternoon, about 15H35. She weighed 3.655kg, and is 53cm long. Both mother and daughter is healthy.

Just thought I'd share.

Marius

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng RSA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 14:57:03 (EST) 

Bach Melik, so we swam in the same pool, probably Kudu peed in it too !

Congratulations Marius !

My best wishes to the mother.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 15:15:21 (EST) 

my latest knife test and other sharp subjects can be discussed best at TacKnifecountry.com
Mc Gyver <SwissarmyKnife@BSnet.ch>
Switzerland - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 15:24:01 (EST) 

The advantage to the wire is that you do not get any reflection off of the flat reticle glass when it is hit with an laser anti-sniper optic detection device. The reticle is the only absolutley flat piece of glass in the scope which will do this. The other curved lenses defract it. Also a wire reticle might stay cleaner over the years. A glass reticle can gather dust spects and metal shavings etc (what ever is floating around inside of the scope)on it.

Having said all of that I prefer the round dots to the ovals. Reticles with .2 mil round dots can be easily broken down into tenths of a mil (.1) while the ovals (.25 mil) are broken down into eigths (.125). The math is easier with tenths and the breakdown is finer.

Kudu, what the sam hell has sparked your interest in knives? Oh wait, I know, you have enough guns and scopes to equip a platoon and now you want to go into knives eh? Here is how you spark a conversation on Sniper Country.

1. Make a bold/silly statement. Example: "I have just purchased a M1917 Springfield in original cosmoline. It shoots .1 moa with Military issue ammo. I would like to know if anyone knows of a replacement barrel and stock for this rifle as I think it is shot out."

2. Insult Rick or me. Example: "Gooch and Boucher are ate up. They are old men without lives and refuse to admit that they are Former Action Guys (FAGS)."

3. Say anything positive about Savage Rifles, Jap Optics or the Fort Benning Sniper School.

Then just stand by for action!

Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 15:26:14 (EST) 

ok, here goes...i have a arisaka type 77 that i would like to convert for a pederson device that i found at a yard sale, anyone have any suggestions on how i should do this? also, i purchased a "slightly" used Mk4 with 1/4 min adjustments. i would also like to know anyone thats capable of taking those dot thingees out of my scope cuz they get in my way when im trying to look at something.

oh, before i forget, does anyone know if b square will make fluted steel scope mount for my arisaka, because EVERYONE knows fluting is cool.

and G, you know i would never call you a F.A.G. to your face, i would stick a note to your back that says F.A.G., but never say it to your face, cuz your my buddy. is buddy still only half of a word?

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 16:41:14 (EST) 

Hey, please accept my congratulations on the birth of Elmine. How do you pronounce that? Does this mean you are a proud father for the first time? May God bless your child with a healthy, and happy life..Your wife and yourself as well.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Atlanta,, Ga USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 16:53:43 (EST) 

Does any oldtime fathers have advice for me? My 4 year old son is a dead shot the first time out! I took him and the pellet gun out for a familiarization and safety teaching. and in 5 min. he was almost able to outshoot me with it(open sights). my question is what should I do to promote him being better? when the first shot dropped low he imediately compensated without any advice or help, he is a super natural at it and I do not even know what I am trying to ask specifically, but I feel he could go so far and want to give him the best help and advice possable. So, any advice and answers to unasked questions would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!
Thanks all,
Mark <mmunds@utw.com>
S.L.C., Utah USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 17:21:17 (EST) 

Judu: Welcome! I would stay away from the scope fluting unless its name contains the word "tactical", the objective is larger than 500mm and it costs more than a new Porsche. After all, everyone knows that it's the trendiness of your equipment that determines your excellence as a sniper. You'll also want a $4000 fluted, moly-coated titanium assault bipod.

BRogers: Great Wiley story. I'll be snickering about that one all day. When I re-tell the story to my friends is it OK to substitute "Iraqi" for "Coyote"? ;^)

Mike: I've been to that 50 yard range at Ord, I watched an H&K presentation there which was fun but you're right, there's not much you can do at 50 yards with sniper rifles. They still have that incedible MOUT training area there (LE only) but I suspect that they don't allow live fire there except for simunitions, blanks and such.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 17:30:18 (EST) 

CONGRATULATIONS!

I hope that everyone is doing well and wish you the best for the future.

Heres an all time "classic" quote line from Parents magazine about seven years ago when my #1 son was born.

"Sleep when your baby does........."

P.S. What a beautiful name for a little girl.
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 17:49:03 (EST) 

On a sadder note : Roy Benavidez, Special Forces NCO and Medal of Honor recipient passed away Sunday, 29 Nov, 1998. He had been at BAMC, Ft Sam Houston, Tx and had to have a leg amputated some time earlier and complications set in. He was one fine Warrior. Hoist a glass and remember, "Fallen Comrades".
Out Here
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Somewhere in the South, USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:02:35 (EST) 

Mark - Let your youngen shoot when he wants to and don't make a big deal out of it. Don't try to put him on a regimen until he wants to go on one. And that probably won't happen for awhile yet. He probably will find something more interesting that will take his attention now and then. Again don't make a big deal out of it. Just "allow" an opportunity for him to shoot now and then. This way he will find it fun and not a "job". The reson I state this is because my daughter was a natural when she was very young and I pushed too hard. She lost all interest for years. When she went to collage, the interest came back and she was the team captain.

Bach - Mark IVs and Ultras have the same objective lens size. The Ultra came in M1, M2, M3, and M3A models. The M2 was a waste of material and very hard to find now. The M3 was a limited production run with 1 MOA windage turrets. I think SOTIC has the most of those in one spot. We seldom use them. While the etched glass may catch debris faster than the wire, and there is a case for laser reflection, I would take the laser etching over the wire any day. Just don't look at electro optical devices! They will do your eyes in. A quick point for the laser crowd. Some guys use lasers that are eye safe to 35 meters. Closer than 35 meters they are not eye safe. Well that laser when observed through a 10x scope is now not eye safe until past 350 meters! That is why I do not point my scope towards any eletro optical device.

Torsten - Unless you want to send it to me for a Christmas present!!!

Scott - The military scopes all have the round laser reticles. It is only you poor civies stuck with the wire footballs, yuck!! Leupold made that decision, because they did not want to be directly associated with the killing of humans, (except when there is a hugh military contract involved!).

Have fun guys and hold hard. Gooch - I AM NOT A F.A.G.! Ate up maybe, but only retired and retarded.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:16:38 (EST) 

Brent "Swede" Ingvardsen
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:41:38 (EST) 

Brent "SWEDE"
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
S-port, La USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:45:12 (EST) 

I was shooting air pistols in an indoor range at Parris Island one day with our coach and my wife dropped by. I gave her my pistol and she drilled by gawd X rings and 10's. Excitedly I asked our coach to spend some time with her as I thought this might be a good way to get her into shooting (and make her expand the non existant gun budget.)

Well after he spent an hour telling her about the fundamentals, position etc. she could never do it again. I think he had made it sound too hard for her and it was supposed to be hard to shoot.

Lesson learned is make sure he doing things right without taking the fun and spontanaity out of it. If he is hitting center then he must be doing it right. Big things is to make sure that the things he is doing are fundamentaly sound so that as he goes on into more precision shooting that he has a good foundation. If you need a good reference track down a copy of USMC FMFM 1-3 or FMFM 0-8. They have changed the FMFM part now but some places still sell the FMFM's. The NRA has some good books n the fundamentals too.

Well time to go. I have have been asked to confirm some laws of physics for MIT. Better get going. The lab is emitting a strange glow.

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:49:25 (EST) 

And I didn't say you were a F.A.G! That was Kudu or was it "turkey molester".... anyway I still like you.
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:58:08 (EST) 

Mark <mmunds@utw.com>
S.L.C., Utah USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 19:20:14 (EST) 

Dave, MOUT is strickly for play no live ammo. I have spent some time on the site and wish a had how much the department has spent on my use of Flash Bangs there.

I've spent most of the day looking for Sniper Info on the net. I have to teach an up comming beginner class and was looking for the lazy way out. Looks like I need to get off the net and write a detailed lession plan.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 19:36:24 (EST) 

The 1 moa adjustment is not a mistake. We (the Army sniper program/Rick and the boyz at Bragg) wanted it that way. It enables the scope to have all of the comeups for 100-1000m yet not exceed 1 revolution on the turret and kept the low profile turret. If you decide you can't deal with it, call Premier Reticle and ask about putting a target turret on it.

Tactical scopes are just that, target scopes are just that. Hybrids don't work well in either situation. Pick the right tool for the job. Good luck baby!

Kudu, I wasn't refering to you as turkey molester, that is a nom de jere (?) for scott/x-ring/spider bait/turkey molester/?. If I was going to refer to you as anything I would call you "Master pirate machinist and gunbuilder and former wind reader of mine who skins a squirrel as well as he turns a barrel, who's women have health records that couldn't fit on a CD and who's dog gives better conversation than thee" but that is too long so I'll stick with Kudu until something else catches my fancy.
Gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 20:34:45 (EST) 

Gooch are you still in or can you know call yourself a Former/Retired Miltary Man?

I'm thinking of a new rifle. 40X action, McMillian M-3 stock, 26" K&P Barrel
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 21:20:27 (EST) 

Ding - What's the problem. You are the maximum you can be out. That is 1/2 moa. If you want to shoot NRA bulls, then the X-ring is 1 moa in diameter and hold on the top (or bottom if that is where you are zeroed as out) and you will get dead center x-ring hits IF you do everything else right. Yes you will be 4 inches out of zero at 800 and a whooping 5 inches out of zero at 1000. But then again the x-ring is 10 inches in diameter and the 10 ring is even bigger. If you are shooting other than NRA bulls, then you can easily hold the error. My advise is to zero so that you are 1/2 moa high, that way you have aim points of known deminsions on a head shot. You will find that as you go back you will be dead on at some ranges and 1/2 moa out at other ranges. The reason is that the M3 does not have a cam it uses moa adjustments with a ballistic collar to represent ranges. If you are zeroed at 200 at .5 moa high you will probably be about dead on at 600. One more point on your zero. Shoot for several days and you may find that on some days you will hit POA/POI. This is due to the constant variables of weather, light, eyes, and the ever possible hang over zero. If this is true, besure to write down in your log when you are on and when you are out and by how much.

Mike - Have fun with your lesson outlines and course development! Been there and it is a pain. Remember that finding your material somewhere else is not being lazy, why reinvent info when you can find it someplace else. Then all you have to do is valiate that info. Just becarful of your sources! Some are better than others. Have fun with your course man!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 22:35:53 (EST) 

Time for me to head home, Later....
 

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 22:50:57 (EST) 

Mark: Ref: Your son's shooting ability! Send your son to Gooch for advanced training. Hopefully he won't turn into a F.A.G.

Dave: You are really pushing that 168 grainer to its maximum limits. Way, Way out to 50 yards. Thats almost the next country. Betcha can't even see that far?

Meanwhile back to logical and rational questions: If one were to use 210 Federal Primers to load match bullets with Varget powder, would or should I expect to get better results using 210 Match primers instead. I'm open for suggestions, since Federal 210 Match primers are a little difficult to come by around here and for someone to order them for you costs a lot with the UPS hazard fee. So how much of a drop in accuracy should one expect, if any.

Also CCI Br primers or Winchester primers are they as good as the Federal 210M?

Thnax in advance.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Im traveling thru another dimension, not only of sight and sound but in , Ohio USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 22:56:31 (EST) 

Thanks,

Ken
Ken (NoVa Shooter) <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 23:25:01 (EST) 

Marius,
God bless!
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Orland Park, ILL. USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 23:43:12 (EST) 

Al,
You can use the 210 in place of the match there is not enough difference to even consider the extra expence. When I went from the match to the 210s there was no difference at all in my groups. I never went back,save the extra for a cold one!!

Gooch and Rick,
What's this F.A.G. stuff?? Don't tell me two of my "IDOLS" are giving in to old age. Remember "OLD AGE AND TREACHERY WILL OVECOME SKILL AND YOUTH" Were not getting older, only better right guy's??.......
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 23:58:53 (EST) 

Congratulations and Best Wishes. May she always be healthy and happy.

Doc
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 23:59:14 (EST) 

a friend showed me a night vision sight last night.
Its of Russian Manufacture and has a infrared laser as part of the whole unit over the objective. Adjustment is conventional, but the laser is used for both lighting and as a reticle/aim point.

Optics look like they came from a camera, and picture quality is a little better than Gen I US.
We were able to "paint" a comunications tower that is 400 Meters away with the laser and still pick it up clearly in the sight.

We´ll use it next weekend when we go out to train our Sniperbabies.
I´ll compare it against my Leupold 3,5-10 LR and will come back with info.

Problem one is that it is an aktive unit, no two is that I dont know how dangerous the laser is, were carefull at the moment.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 07:23:22 (EST) 

ATTENTION:
Since we have more and more professionals visiting the site, I would like to put out a general invitation. If you are currently in the trade or have been in the past, and have had the opportunity to evaluate various types of gear (optics, rifles, ammunition) the SC staff would be very interested in any reviews you might wish to submit. We do not coddle manufacturers here. If a product sucks, we want to know about it. If a sniper can not live with out it, we also want to know about it. Your writing skill is secondary to the information you have to impart. None of us major in grammer and our goal in valid information, not perfect syntax!

One of our goals is to keep those in the field abreast of new developments in the trade, as well as providing reviews of material and equipment relevent to sniper operations. While the Roster is a fun place to hang out, the real meat and potatoes of this site is the information provided on the main page. If you have experience and are willing to share it please consider submitting your thoughts for posting in the Reviews or Articles sections. We are looking primarily for sniping related data garnered from professional experience. While hunting and bench techniques are interesting, they are not the main direction of this site. If you have valuable lessons (tactics or gear) you are willing to share with fellow officers or military personnel (keeping in mind civilians read the page) please consider submitting material. Thank you.

Scott Powers
Sniper Country Staff.
 

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 11:24:37 (EST) 

Thanks!
Crazy J
Crazy J <aejtower@flash.net>
TX USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 12:56:44 (EST) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 14:20:55 (EST) 

Try soft throw away Contacts first, only for the field outings, and definetly for some training lessons as they will definatly change your zero. Take your glasses as spares as it is a bitch to reinstall a washed out contact lens with fingers that have camo greasepaint on them.

Most Glass makers Zeiss, Rodenstock, etc. offer several types of non glare coatings, choose the best they make, but remember that the coatings are difficult to clean, and may get blurry or smeared with some special glass cleaners.I use warm water and a little liquid soap and wash mine.

Keeping the Glasses in the shade will help keep reflections to a minimum, so wear a baseball or BDU cap with a larger bill. Or if practical a OD green skeeter net.

Here in germany it is fashionable at the moment to wear very thin frames made out of titanium etc. with small lenses that are bolted directly to the frame and not held by it like conventional glasses.
The advantage is that smaller lenses reflect less, and when painting your face you dont look like a bush with glasses. Even on a picture taken from a few yards you can harly see that I´m wearing glasses.

Other than that always remember that the glasses are extra protection for our most sensative and important MkI Eyeball.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 14:25:32 (EST) 

As far as camouflaging eye glasses. About the only thing you can do is to cammy the frames to reduce glare and then wear a boony hat which keeps light off of them. When I wore glasses (and I wore glasses in every USMC and Army course I went through) I tried not to wear them when I was on the gun or on optics to reduce the number of lenses I had to protect. I now use extended wear contacts and take handy wipes, solution and a spare set to the field as well as a set of glasses which can be worn under a gas mask. Once they get this laser surgery shit down I might go for that. Don't mess with the lenses of your glasses trying to cammy them. All you do is look silly and reduce your field of view. It will also give you a headache from hell trying to see through them.

And spider bait. Gooch is not a moniker sah! It is my real name! Proud decendant of Sir William Gooch, of Gooch's Marines (Colonial), Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia and namesake of Goochland city and county in said commonwealth. Hurumph! Moniker my #*&. Now Kudu on the other hand is only his screen name, we usually call him the gerble master or something similiar. My real friends (bofum)call me Mistah Gooch!!

Hey Marius! How goes the diaper changing? Got a buddy of mine who's woman just had twin boys. I feel for you guys. have fun!
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 14:28:26 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 16:58:02 (EST) 

Bolt,
I use the Leupold dual dove tail and they work great!! If you want to swap scope's around then look at the MK4 or other such mount's .
I use the Springfield 2nd Generation mt on my M1A but I must admit I have not shot it a lot. I have heard both good and bad about it .
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 17:46:22 (EST) 

Quite a while ago I posted a concern about tumbling media lodged in the nose cavity of Black Hills 168g Moly Match. After a little experimenting I think I've shot enough of it to say that it doesn't effect accuracy enough to worry about. I carefully removed the media from several boxes, and left others alone as a control. Shooting from 100, 200 & 300 yards with my TBA M40A1 I have shot 100yd groups that average 0.343" with the best being in the low 'teens (Mike builds a hell of a rifle!!!) and the worst (including flyers, gasp!) just under an inch. I have had my shooting partner mix up the batches, so I didn't know what I'd be firing, and overall tried to keep the experiment scientific. This is the only lot of Black Hills Moly I've tried, but I would buy more without hesitation. I want to try the new Federal Moly GM next, and I've got a case of Fed 175g to work on.

Review coming soon, Scott!
SGT Lance M. Johnston <sgtlmj@dmci.net>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 18:06:24 (EST) 

To Ken, Scoping the 1917 Enfield
Does this rifle shoot good groups with the battle sights? There is very little difference in grouping ability between peep sights and a scope as long as you are shooting at nice round black bullseyes. I would not consider hanging a scope on one if it did not prove itself by shooting 1 moa or 1.5 moa with the sights that were issued. If it does shoot that well, then what I would do with this rifle is go out and buy an old Unertl target scope. and put it on. You only need do drill and tap four holes and find target blocks of appropriate height to be all set. Of course if you are married you will have to come up with an excuse as to why you are willing to pay more for the scope than you did for the rifle. Just keep in mind that as long as you have the scope on, you cannot use the really nice rangefinder that was built into the rifle.

To Roy: Amax bullets
I have the same experience as you with the Amax bullets. I was disapointed at first try until I started seating them way out there.
Right now I am seating them out to 2.925 OAL in my 308 and I still havent touched the rifleing. These are very long bullets, about .2 longer than the 168 Sierras but the shape of the olvige allows them to be seated out much farther than normal. These Amax bullets shot so well for me that I am going to change my magazine well to 3.0 inches to accomodate them.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ojio USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 18:23:47 (EST) 

Congradulations! Health and happiness to you all.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 22:12:58 (EST) 

Dug the "butts hole" and piled up the firing mounds before freeze-up. Looks very impressive. Contractor has quoted for the concrete work and other essential range installations. It is a very satisfying feeling knowing your club can accomplish in a matter of a year, what other groups never get done in a lifetime, eh.

Book review requested:

Has anyone on sc read "Dead On" by Tony M. Noblitt and Warren Gabrilska? Paladin Press is advertising it for $20. It is my habit to buy good books on shooting, although you lot have made me doubt that one by the MACV 'radio relay guy'.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 22:14:48 (EST) 

Now I have question for someone out there. On my rifle the foward screw on the rear scope mount keeps coming loose(.308) The first time i installed it i used hoppes screw lock, the second and now 3ed time have used the red lock tight. At this time is's shooting great but the last two times at about 80 rounds it came loose. Any Ideas why out there.
The rifle is 110FP Savage with millet scope mounts.
Great to be home,
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
not in Arab, Land USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 22:57:05 (EST) 

Rifle is currently scoped with a Tasco 5-20x50BDC scope, and shoots to sub 0.5 MOA with either 165 or 180 Nosler Ballistic Tips, stoked with IMR4895 and H4350, respectively, but I suspect that the scope is wandering a bit - fire five shots, everything feels right, I've got a cloverleaf, but one of 'em's 3/4 or an inch off... Also some diagonal stringing.

2) Possible safety concern - I have a habit, during load development, of loading a couple of dozen rounds of each type and tossing 'em into a baggie with the load data for the trip to the range. Yeah, boxes would be nice, but since some days are 20+ baggie days, well, the baggies are convenient.

Anywho, noticed that I had a considerable amount of moly dust (hadn't wiped the bullets down) that had spread from the bullets to coat small areas of the rest of some of the cartridges. Since the stuff is a lube, wouldn't it be just as hazardous as firing a lubed case? I.e., the case and neck don't "catch" in the chamber from the pressure, and the case is propelled back full force into the bolt?

So now I make sure I wipe the bullets, etc.
 

bogie <bogie@inlink.com>
STL, Misery USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 23:01:11 (EST) 

For half of my life I've had to wear contacts, and I've lost those damn things from High school football games, hunting trips, scuba diving & swimming, snow skiing, back seat tumble parties, you name it, I've lost a contact doing it.
This past October, I was told that my eyes were past the 20/200 requirment to meet most department regs. so I got the laser eye surgery done, and it was the best move I've done other than calling off my past engagement.
RK surgery is done with either a knife or laser. The old way,(knife) will cut insisions in the eye and is prone to rupture from a blow to the head or recoil. The laser actually shaves the eye and not subjected to limitations that the knife has. Check your insurance to see if they cover it. Some may cover it %100, some just a part of the cost.
After the surgery, a few days are needed off to heal the eyes. No driving, but after a few days you're good to go. While night driving, you will have stars around lights, but vision will be clear. The staring effect will fade away in time. During this time your vision will adjust sharper and clear. By all means, do what the Dr. tells you to do and not to do! Use only the drops that he gives you and throw away all your old contact junk! Doing this, you by-pass many of the things that COULD go wrong.
If you've ever thought about it, at least go and have the check-up so they can tell you where you fit in and what can be done for you.
Now, a month and a half later, I see 20/20. Clear vision, No stars around lights at night, No problems.
If you got the chance, check it out. You won't be disapointed.
( HINT-HINT, Gooch )
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Pheasent busting in, IL. USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 23:22:31 (EST) 

I was curious if the military had done any research on using suppressors on sniper rifles. Though a supersonic bullet could not be completely silenced, it seems that this would be good way to reduce the muzzle blast and flash that could betray a sniper's position. A number of companies like Gemtech and AWC market detachable centerfire suppressors for bolt guns. Do you have any knowledge you could share with us on the pros and cons of suppressors for sniper rifles?? Of course, comments from anyone else with experience with sniper rifle suppressors would be appreciated.

Jack McC.
Jack McC. <jmcconney@mindspring.com>
Lawrenceville, GA USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 23:25:03 (EST) 

Glad to hear someone has a new born. My only question is what length of pull for the newborn's rifle. Really enjoy your baby while young. They grow so fast.

Gooch You Are The Man. Thanks again. When/if you get out here or I go there dinner many brews are on me. Just say the word when you need another sling. Really

Well its raining so I guess I'll load ammo and go shooting tomorrow. No one said I was smart. Besides I have to try a new B&L Tactical Scope, it's been tormenting me sitting in the safe all week.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 01:36:21 (EST) 

Bolt,
I must admit to having a early M 305 Norinco Knock off M 1 A serial numer 000328. They must have taken care in the early days of producing these, it is well made, shoots 3" groups at 300 Metres out of the Magazine ! The only thing I burned in my front yard was the banana-case-wood stock. Have a oversized SM Fiberglass stock on it now. Bedded the Action, reamed the flash hider, did the trigger, epoxied the gas piston housing, cut of the little tang that holds onto the front part of the stock, and epoxied the thing in place. Plus all the other things.

The mount I use......... No first this. In 88´ I worked for the company that imported the Springfield M1A´s into Germany, along with these we received the Aluminium Scope mount´s in the regular, and the beefed up style that screws into the clip guide. We/ our customers had problems with these mounts shooting loose, so upon one visit Dennis Reese CEO Springfield showed us how this was suposed to be done.
1. take the stock off, 2. find a nice pice of wood to put under the right side of the receiver. 3. screw the mount on finger tight, 4. Whack the s... out of the big screw with a leather mallet, 5. tighten again, repeat 4. and 5. until mount is seated/mauled into the guides of the receiver.

With this hi tec version fresh in my mind I set of to make my own mount.
Piece of angle iron cut and filed to the shape of the clip guide mount, MK IV bases on top, but I changed the T guide on the Aluminum Mount to having three M5 Allen (worm?) screws that grip into the side of the receiver. Now I can adjust the mount for cant and windage and after doing so and locktite´ing the little buggers in place I have a rock solid repeatable mount that is one of a kind.

Sorry this got so long !

"Ende"
Torsten <Lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 07:49:44 (EST) 

Theres a buncha mounts with a built in taper for elevation corrections ( certainly with more to come as UKD rifle shooting reaches its peak) at longer ranges. MWG, Badger Ordnance, etc. etc. which you can find under another S/C column + the product reviews.
I'm using a standard MWG base w/o shims or such not as the chances of me finding a range past 800 yards is limited along with long range practicing ability. Some say the secret is to make certain everything (base & rings) are installed in alignment with the bore and making certain the scope is optically centered before zeroing.
Theres my 10 cents worth.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, By-Gawd USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 09:30:53 (EST) 

Suppressors ?

The Bundeswehr just purchased the Accuracy International AWF in .300 Win MAG, with a suppressor ! Have not shot it nor have I seen a copy of our new Field Manual ,I´m supposed to have one this Month, in which they should go into more detail.

I made some .50 cans for an elite few of those people that inhabit most of North Afrika, but not much of Israel.
These went on Bolt Action Rifles, and were made out of Titanium/ Aluminum, with an integral Muzzle brake (my Patent), and a few other gimmicks. But since everyone cooks with water in this buisness, even though some believe they are the best since the invetion of sliced bread, nothing in those cans was new exept for the Muzzle brake.

Full power loads were not a problem, and recoil/signature was considerably reduced. The unit will work dry or as a wet pack.

and thats not all I can say about that !

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 10:34:02 (EST) 

Do you by chance subscribe to either Tactical Shooter and/or Precision Shooting magazines? They, like this website, are excellent places to learn stuff from good, knowledgable folks. I understand that you can get info. overload reading all the diff. ways to breakin or clean a barrel. My tendency is to overread stuff sometimes and the my head spins...

Opps... back to work.. I'll post my latest "treatment" later today.
Others may have input as well..
For rifle related and sniper things, you've hit paydirt in my humble opinion. Like you, I'm not LE or Military but I love this stuff too..

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Atlanta, Ga USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 14:26:36 (EST) 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 16:51:13 (EST) 

Jeff
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 17:30:31 (EST) 

save your money, and dont buy a Dragunov unless you want to be laughed at by your serious sniping buddys or want to impress the neophytes on the range. ive never seen a Drag hold anything less than 2 MOA, and thats with "match" ammo. instead, think about buying a bolt gun. if your into slinging lead at a rapid rate go for an M1A or an AR-10.

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 18:11:43 (EST) 

on the subject of russian NODS, i wouldnt use any of the 1st or 2nd gen stuff. when i was in the army we got to use a few of the warsaw pact stuff but all of us complained of headaches after using them for a while. a message from Aberdeen Proving Ground came out finally on the potential hazards of using Warsaw Pact NODS in training because of the unfiltered tubes. dont ask me what sppectrum of light they emitted, but i can assure you the headaches were a major a**kicker. as far as the "new" russian surplus, i cant tell you anything about that.

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 18:28:29 (EST) 

Mark <mmunds@utw.com>
slc, utah USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 18:33:29 (EST) 

Some things to think about for the Law-Enforcement Sniper.
1 - With the mass media always being present when a situation occurres they will be tracing back a shot to it's source. This will reveal the location of the sniper if not a full face shot for the evening news.
2 - The Law-Enforcement Sniper may be called upon prior to a raid or entry to remove any sentry dogs (or just plain mean dogs that are kept to deture any attempt at a skillfull entry).
3 - The Law-Enforcement Sniper may be called upon to knock out lighting for either a raid or a surveillance team. This could be security lighting or street lights.

With the majority of the exhisting suppressed Sniper Rifle systems there is a dramatic shift in the rifle's point of impact due to the weight involved in the suppressor. This will require the re-zeroing of the rifle after cleaning. This then means the Sniper will be putting a dirty rifle away. Also when a shot is fired through the various suppressors on the market there will be condensation form after the shot is fired and the rifle is cooling. This results in rust forming on the barrel and internals of the suppressor. The end result is if you leave the suppressor on the rifle after re-zeroing it will rust. But if you clean the rifle and attach the suppressor later you will not have a proper zero. This is a very bad situation for the Law-Enforcement Sniper. (Not to mention trying to store a Sniper Rifle with an extra 12 to 18 inches added to the overall length.)

I have been involved in the testing of a new Suppressed Sniper Rifle that has the overall length of a normal rifle and none of the associated problems with removing the suppressor for storage or cleaning.

To any bonafide Law-Enforcement Sniper or Instructor I will gladly provide any additional information. Contact me by E-Mail with a method I can verify your credentials and I will be in touch.

Bruce G. Buell
National Coach Development Staff
Bruce G. Buell, NCDS <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jacksonville, FL USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 18:40:17 (EST) 

DD Bartlett <SniperZ2@aol.com>
Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 19:05:10 (EST) 

For awhile, the FDA actually wasnt allowing them into the US, because
of emitted radiation...

Personally, the tubes arent built well, optics are terrible.
 

Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
redmond, wa USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 20:09:06 (EST) 

In addtion to the suggestions of Gooch and PeteR, you might consider Baer tapered bases. Their claim is to provide approx. 20 MOA extra scope travel. They are two peice weaver style bases that are well made. Price is 65.00 per set. They can be ordered from Lightforce USA. 425 656 1577. They are available for M700 Rem and M70 Win. rifles.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 20:24:26 (EST) 

About Camelbacks. I have been useing a vest by Blackhawk for the last two years. It has a built in camelback, LBE mounting points on the back, a detachable pack, and front pouches that fold and velcro to the rear when you have to crawl. I like it but it is not a catalog item. A local shop special ordered it for me. They cost about $100.00. Yes Gooch I have modified it with several small modifications.

I just got a small camera tripod I want to try for more height adjustment. What is the best way to make a platform for the rifle to sit on? How is it best carried? so far I just roll it in my mat.
 

Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 20:56:44 (EST) 

I just recieved the Mildot Master and it is excellent. But it doesn't have any dope for windage in gale force winds. You laugh. I was at Camp Geiger when Hugo blew in. We were in the middle of a 5 day FTX and the op. consisted of an emergency ex-fil via V-TOL. Well needless to say they never got off the ground and we were forced to sit it out in the bush. While we cowered in our ponchos we contemplated having to dope our Unertyl's. What a joke! I never felt more abandoned in my life. But we did learn why the new generation optics are nitrogen filled. (GRIN!)

Gooch-Any idea when your dope book will be ready for shipment?
 

Ding
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 21:41:29 (EST)

if i mention Plaster is a sniping god on here...will that start an argument too?

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 21:42:53 (EST) 

Best Regards,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 22:07:18 (EST) 

Jack McC - Suppressed SWSs have been used for some years. The use is to lower, significantly, all target indicators given out by the firing of a sniper rifle. It works quite well within several limiations as stated by Bruce Bruell in his post. You also mentioned the sub sonic rounds. Don't bother with them. They can do more harm than good to the mission. One you ahve to get very close for them to be effective and if you miss the enemy will know better than with a full load as to where you are located. You can hear a subsonic round coming and going, thus connect the dots and you are over there! With a full load, you have a sonic crack that is 90 degrees to the sonic wake. This is never in the direction of the shooter. Anyway you look at it, someone is going to know they've been shot at. Use of subsonic in an LEA environment, as described by Bruell, is feasible when taking out lights or dogs without humans around to witness the act. However if a human is around he will hear impact and the whir of the round.

Bruce - On the problem you've been having with the suppressors, you need to check around a lot more. You're problems were solved in the 80s by several different manufacturers that sold to the military. Also a dedicated gun would be the best way to go with the integrated suppressor and barrel. Cuts down on size and some of the hassles.

Rich - Watch out for the Tetra products. The Tetra Gun Grease will go rancid just as butter does and smells worse. Bad news for long storage. The barrel stuff did not impress me. I got a 75 fps increase in muzzle velocity with the stuff, good news, bad news, it didn't stay there and the velocity would become erratic. Check the archives for break in procedures, there are several techniques out there, to include the techniques we use at SOTIC. Or email me if you are interested and I'll try to explain the method we use at SOTIC.

Knightmare - The Draganov SVD is an area sniper weapon system used at the squad level in the Russian Army. It was used so that direct fire can be placed on an attacking or probing element without giving away the location of the crew served weapons until the attack has been committed. It is not an overly accurate weapon and suffers greatly from barrle whip and stamped metal itis. It is a nice goly gee whiz rifle that you can mount on the wall along side of the Isreali version of it known as the Galil. Same principle and same results. Buy yourself a nice bolt gun and have fun shooting long range, or buy yourself a nice M1A, SR, or AR and have fun shooting a lot of rounds, just not as accurately as the bolt gun. Of course, since they are gas guns they are more sensitive to the elements and have to be pampered alot more than the bolt guns.

That should start some squealing! Hold hard guys and have fun!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 23:31:32 (EST) 

RE: Resetting zero

If my rifle is zeroed at 1,000 yards, and I dial in the necessary clicks to get the crosshair "on" at 300 yards, and THEN I want to dial in clicks to get the crosshair zeroed at 600 yards, do I use the number of clicks to get to 600 based on a 1,000 yard zero, or 300 yard zero? I thought if I backed off from a 1,000 yard zero the required number of clicks to get to 300, that I would just backtrack (go back up) the required number of clicks based on the 1,000 yard trajectory chart to get a 600 yard zero. However, if I must add the number of clicks based on a 300 yard zero, the number of clicks it takes to get a 600 zero is much higher than if I was working from the 1,000 yard zero. I thought I had this stuff all figured out, because when I clicked down the required number of clicks to go from 1,000 to 100, it was right on. THEN, when I clicked in the required number of clicks to get from 100 to 300 based on my 1000 yard zero THAT elevation change was right on. But I am not so sure about going from 300 to 600. Anybody else confused?
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 00:36:30 (EST) 

is a Carcano a accurate Sniper Weapon ? You go and figure !
 

Im off into the beautiful Snowy Forest to melt snow with our Sniperbabies.
I figure by 04:00 we´ll be under 4 to 5 Inches. But it´s a lot warmer then !

See/read you all on Sunday

Have a nice one

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
it is snowing, in Germany - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 08:44:48 (EST) 

I kind of thought it was funny at the time.I'm sorry,it was a terribly slow day at work for me.My mind was allowed to wander.Perhaps I was hungry at the time.

Seriously though,if you had your mind on a Draganov do as Rick says and save your money.Have you ever shot an SKS or any AK derivative? Accuracy in this rifle is reportedly only marginally better than these.

If you want a poor boy's Draganov, take a SKS (D model with detachable magazine I believe) and mount your choice of any available thumb hole type stock and a cheap fixed power scope.You'll get about the same performance and your pocket book will thank you for the money you'll save.

To Kudu & Rick:That does it,you've burst my little sniper bubble.How dare you challenge the all mighty Plaster as Sniper God ?I know he's the Sniper God because he's told everyone that he is.It's too bad that Sniper God can't find enough time in his busy schedule to update his web site.

Regards,
Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 12:12:33 (EST) 

You have relatives on Elm Street perhaps?

I did a T&E on a Chinese Dragunov copy about 7 years ago, when all was said, done, and measured, it was nothing more than a wannabee OR "EXTENDED CAB" AK variant. What a waste!
Give me any old generic bolt gun i.e. Carcano/ SAVAGE / Moisin Nagant/ Lee Metford/ Krag and I'd feel a heck of a lot more secure in my abilities.

I second (third?) the current opinions presented on the rifle
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 14:24:56 (EST) 

I still need help on what is the best platform to put on a camera tripod to make a rifle rest.

I went to gunstore today to buy action for my new rifle. Turned out cheaper to buy a whole rifle. By the time I sell the stock and bbl off the PSS I will be ahead.

PS Gooch is the NCOIC on this site........
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 18:28:09 (EST) 

RE: 300 WinMag

Should you choose a 300 to shoot? After using a 308 for two decades with outstanding success (20+ one shot instantaneous kills), I decided I needed "more rifle". I purchased a Remington Sendero and proceeded to learn the rifle. What I have learned so far is that the rifle has more recoil, however the weight of the rifle helps soak up some of the kick, it is more expensive to load for just by virtue of the caliber, and I tend to overestimate my abilities with this rifle. My Sendero is very accurate, but successful long range shooting il, lves more than raw accuracy. I am learning this little by little. This past week I missed a 600 yard shot by being sloppy on reading a mildot range and thinking the flatter trajectory of the 300 would compensate for my "close is good enough" attitude. WRONG! Having said all this, the final decision is up to you. In a pure sniping role, I tend to believe a 308 is the way to go. If you are looking to jazz up some hot velocity numbers and such, by all means, get the 300!
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 20:07:01 (EST) 

On the camera tripod thing. Someone recommended aluminum U-channel a while back. I have used PVC pipe cut lengthwise. Pad whatever you use. Screw the "whatever" to the quick release adapter/shoe on the tripod (the part that comes off). You can then get other adapters/shoes for other devices and have multiple uses for the tripod.

Mr Stark. Clovis was the town with the range facility that I douldn't remember a few days ago. There are a few Northern California guys on this site that were looking for a good range. You got information on the 1000 yard range near Clovis? I shot an NRA match their once when I was stationed in Vallejo. At least I think it was Clovis. It has been a while.
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 20:17:35 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 20:31:40 (EST) 

Bolt - Yes I can see the difference! It is very apparent when you view the scopes side by side in the identical conditions at dusk.

Richard Stark - I would advise against the 300 Win Mag until you know for sure what you want the weapon to accomplish. If it is only for medium range shooting than the .308 is the way to go. Less recol, less maintenance problems, cheaper overall. This is especially true if you plan on doing alot of shooting. The 300 will eat a barrel in anywhere from 800 to 2000 rounds. Another consideration is the type of shooting that you will be doing. Rapid transitions to targets and the 300 will eat your shoulder since you can't properly seat the butt into the shoulder pocket to totally absorb recoil. After a few shots you will start to show signs of the wonderful flinch.

Gooch - NCOIC, good title, I like it!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 22:32:05 (EST) 

Gooch I have never shot at Clovis. I have heard of it but I normally just shoot the ranges they have the Police Olympics . 1999 is supposed to be near Pasadena? No one knows which range yet, but no Pendalton. Too bad I would like to shoot at Pendelton. Doesn't matter this year I switched to a mouse gun with fancy sights. I'll probably never hit the target again with all the excuses taken away.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 22:32:19 (EST) 

If your rifle is shooting 1/2 MOA AS IS...do you need to have the action trued ?? Had a 2.25 group at 500yds on English Range and now wonder if the expense is needed or worth having the work done ?? Any gunsmiths, Gooch or Rick (at Ft Drag) jump on in !! That group was 8 shots of factory Norma 168's and wind was nil. Sure wish Santa would send me a chronograph and another keg of powder !!
Out Here
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 23:02:52 (EST) 

I wish that I could only say proudly with honor the words
"Semper Fidelis" With thoughs who fight so willingly for our country. And a special salute to thoughs who do not go out into the war zone with the suport of a platoon, but alown, or with just one other, to serve their country with there mastered skills of field craft, observation, and marksmanship. I have been called away from my dream to be a Corp sniper, to wage a diferent war, against a different enemy, I have been apointed by a higher power, to preach his word, and that is now my longing. But I love my military brothers, and will forever support you.

fellow long range shooter,
JSB
Joshua Belokur <Jbelokur@mvnc.edu>
MT. Vernon, OH USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 01:31:29 (EST) 

Grey <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Alaska USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 01:39:50 (EST) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Glad December Tiding in the Grand State of , Ohio USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 09:24:37 (EST) 

Who makes the best tripod "shoe" adapter for Robins Egg Blue pumps? Canon, Leica, Minolta, Nikon? Sounds like a convenient carry method. Remember to check the S/M snailbox regularly next week!

Kudu, Torsten, Ron N. and all,

One piece scope bases vs. two piece bases, which is better for the absolute beginner? WHY! Lets start a real firestorm and it can be archieved.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, ByGAwd USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 09:38:05 (EST) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Second Post This Morning in , Ohio USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 09:55:57 (EST) 

First - Check out your application of the fundamentals. If your position is weak you will get more recoil. Make sure you are placing the stock firmly in the pocket of your shouilder and pulling slightly to the rear with your gripping hand which is also gripping firmly. Your weapon and upper body should recoil together. You can install a thin layer of sorbathane padding in your shooting jacket too. Some guys might scoff at it but if you look at all shooting jackets there is a pad thier for recoil. It can't be too thick or it will screw you up. Mak sure it has a non-skid cover on it if you do this. But your postion must still be firm!

Second - Flinching, bucking, jerking.... whatever, are all physical actions caused by the mind. They are mental "problems" not physical. So you need to work on the mental process of firing a shot. You should set aside a few moments each day to sit down an visualize yourself firing good shots. See yourself doing everything right which wil result in a perfect shot. Come up with a set procedure or routine that you go through before a shot. There is a book out there called "With winning in mind" by Lanny Basham. Mr Basham was a member of the USA MTU and an olympic shooter. It taught me a lot.

Third - Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. But dry fire correctly. Apply the two steps above and dry fire. This will help you to turn the trigger pressing action into a subconcious rather than concious act. WHich is what you are after.

Fourth - Find a coach to help you out. THe bigger NRA clubs usually have a couple of trained coaches around.

All else fails...I'll be at Storm Mountain next year! Come on in!

Boys reformatory in Vallejo? Uh uh. Marine Corps Security Forces. WHich, I guess, is close to a boys reformatory.

Gooch
 

goooooch <gooc@stormmountain.com>
USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 12:18:30 (EST) 

On the 300WM I've been there and done that and I loved the caliber!! But like the expert's say you can do everthing you need to do with a 308 for a lot less and have a lot more fun doing it. If the balistic's and wind drift is you argument then try the 260Rem or a simmilar 6.5 or 7MM you get just as good a ballisstic's as the 300 with the recoil of a 243 and more knock down at 1000yds than a 308. I know I didn't believe it either but look it up!! Now your talking fun shootin!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 12:47:22 (EST) 

RE: Mid - Price 'Scopes
 

In reading the many and varied posts concerning which scope to put on a rifle, I have noticed a trend that seems to put shooters in two camps: One camp wants the top of the line, ultimate, super whiz - bang model that costs almost as much as my first new car, and the other camp seems to want to mount an economical scope that comes in around the $200 range or so.

Might I humbly suggest that there are lots of mid-priced scopes that are just the ticket for a wide range of uses. In particular, the model that comes to mind is the Leupold Vari-X II. It is offered in a wide selection of magnifications, reticles, and finishes, and really presents what I believe to be an outstanding scope for the money. After owning a bunch of different makes of scopes, and studying many others, I chose a Vari-X II model for my long-range rig because, I imagine, like many other shooters here at SC, I do not have a bottomless well from which to draw my funds, and the Vari-X II fit the bill.
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 17:32:55 (EST) 

If it shoots .5 moa don't mess with it. You can only make it worse!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 19:46:55 (EST) 

Called Leupold and, after being passed around from one idiot to the next, to find someone that understood what I was talking about (remember the good ole' days when only shooters worked for shooting companies?)...
...I was told that the figure's for the BDC were given to them by the military, and since they sold 85 out a 100 of these to the military, that was what they went with. After some poking around in a ballistic program, it turns out that the "308M" dial is for the 175 Match King at 2700 fps... 100 fps faster than the stuff that Federal and others are selling to the public. And the dial is also in "meters". The "M" may be for "Military", or "Meters" (or both).
Another call to Leupold, this time higher up the ladder, and I found out that they made a short run of 50 dials for the 168@2600 load, and sent me one to evaluate. This one was marked "308Y"
It worked just fine... alla' way out to 1000 yards. It will also perfectly track the 155 Palma at 2670 fps alla' way out to 1000 yards.

About the MK4 Bases… they won't allow the M3 3.5x10 LR to track past about 700-ish yards… there's not enough elevation. I replaced the bases with Baer bases (from "Lightforce" for $65). The Baer bases are identical with the MK4's in appearance, and quality… you can't tell them apart when they are side by side… and the Baer bases will give you 25 MOA more elevation...
These bases put the LR back in the M3 3.5x10 LR, making it usable from 50 yards to about 1200 yards.

Leupold says they're going to make new dials available for the 168@2600 Match load in the Spring or early summer, if you have one of these puppies.

de Pablito (The Bandito)

Paul Coburn <condor@mags.net>
CT USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 19:59:15 (EST) 

Recoil \ Flinching:
My most comfortable a accurate shooting position puts the stock damn near on top of my collarbone, which can hurt after a while. My solution is to glue a piece of closed cell foam onto my M-24 and M-14, then adjust the stock to fit again. Looks like hell but works a charm. Found it alot more convenient than padding clothing.

A buddy of mine worked a way around the BDC problems on his personal M-3A. Being a reloader, he was hating that his pet load of the month did not match the BDC, so he just removed the markings on the dials, cold blued them, then went to the range and when he was on target at whatever distance, put his own marks on the turret.
E Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Grevious, ROK - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 04:50:45 (EST) 

I have to agree with most of what has been said about controlling flinch, BUT, I guess I wouldn't be me if I didn't have at least one different opinion.

I have never understood the notion that the gun should surprise you when it goes off. How can you possible shoot accurately if you don't know when the gun will go off? In addition, if you have a quality trigger and have shot a thousand rounds with that rifle, how can you not know, EXACTLy, when that gun will fire? I am a firearms instructor and teach the "Unexpected Explosion" method to new shooters because they have no notion of how much the gun will recoil, but I can not imagine myself watching an osculating horizontal figure-eight sight picture and not know the precise moment to light the fire.

As stated, pull the rifle into your shoulder with the two fingers of your trigger hand and get a good repeatable cheek weld. One thing I do differently is to rest the thumb of my shooting hand on top of my trigger hand and not rap it around the stock, this way I can't torque the rifle as I firm up my grip.

Now this should start some S#%T !

Stay Safe

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Just getting going in , Magnificent, West Virginia USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 10:58:10 (EST) 

On the M3A BDC. Andy Webber of Armament Technology "www.armament.com" is beginning to produce custom laser etched turrets for the M3 series. Contact him if you are interested.

On the trigger control issue. You'll notice I didn't say that the weapon going off should surprize the shooter. To the contrary the shooter (sniper) must know when the round is going of. You can't shoot a moving target if you don't.

What I said was that the sniper must develop the act of pressing the trigger into a subconcious act. This subconcious act is similiar to you tying a shoe. You conciously decide to tie the shoe but you don't think "Okay, left over right, pull, form a bow, right over left, etc." your mind has developed a form of a conditioned reflex that allows you to tie the show without really thinking about it.

How does this relate to shooting? You train your subconcious mind to press the trigger when the concious mind see's the sight picture that it wants or recieves any other action key you want to train it to react to such as the countdown of a hostage rescue op.

Many of you have already experienced this without knowing it. How many times have you fired a shot when you thought you weren't ready and it ended up a dead center bull? The chance is that you're subconcious saw what it wanted and pressed the trigger.

To truely train your mind to do this requires thoudands of repetitions. That is why I told ya'll to dry fire a lot and visualize this stuff. Your mind is like a computer, program it to do what you want and it will, even under stress.

Okay, now I'll be gentle here. Guys if you are getting movment in your sights when firing from supported prone, enough that you are having to time your shot, something aint right. When firing from the prone with a 10x scope that sight picture shouldn't be moving, period! Higher powered scopes might be a problem.

A very common problem in the prone is picking up the heart beat. If you are using the classic, both feet flat on the deck prone, you might want to try the cocked leg position to get your sternum/diaphram off the ground a bit. This is really important when shooting under stress. For a right handed shooter simply draw the strongside leg up and point the weakside foot in and shift your weight to the left hip a bit. If you are training to be a tactical shooter (as that is what this site is supposed to be about) don't raise your butt up too high or bring that leg up too far. You will increase your own target signature and take up too much room in a hide. Don't confuse this with the "roll-over prone" used by tactical pistol shooters. It is similiar, but not the same.

Another problem is being too low to the ground. Same thing with the heart beat. Try raising your support an inch at a time, which will require bringing your elbows in thusly raising your chest. I find 8-10 inches is about right for me and my build (6', 210). It is possible to get too low. Not only will you get heart beat but you will strain your neck trying to see through the scope. If the buttstock is on or near the ground you may be too low.

Its hard to diagnose problems here but these are some of the more common problems I've run into over the years.

Anything to add Master Rick?
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 12:47:45 (EST) 

we was wundering where you wer? welcome back pardner! missed you enlightening and creative input!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG CiTy, BY-gawd USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 12:56:26 (EST) 

fUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTION RECOIL..................
Is that what some circles call

Please sir, may Ihave another One?
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
OUCH CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 14:50:51 (EST) 

Spec. Starkovich, Thai A.
U.S. Army Infantry
Spec. Thai Starkovich, U.S. Army Infantry <atease33@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 15:22:49 (EST) 

Gooch - Excellent description of the prone position. That army, lay both feet flat, toes out, chest on the ground, all weight on the diaphram crap has ruined more shooters' positions than I know of. I concur about the movement of the scope reticle with the 10x. It should not be more than a perceived .5 moa at most. If you have movement than your position is bad. On of the most common reasons for that movement is resting the non-firing hand on the firing shoulder while in the prone supported. It does not go there! It goes on the ground supporting the butt of the stock. The reason is why we banned sand socks at SOTIC. The shooter finds the weapon so stable with the bipod and the sock that he doesn't properly control the weapon with his firing hand/shoulder and cheek weld. This transmits pulse, muscle quiver and everything else through the weapon. The next rpoblem is personal body make up, and that is weapon height. You must stay low but not too low. Find the height that best fits your body. I have found that most shooters shoot from too high of a position, because of the bipods that they have bought. I use the low Harris and they work great for my body size (5'9" and 165 lb). The higher power scopes you see more wobble becuase the perceived size of .5 moa at 10x is smaller than .5 moa at 24x.

Bill - I was assuming he was talking about a flinch and not a jerk. One is a mind set to make the weapon go off while the other is a mind set to get away from the weapon once it has gone off. This is usually caused due to the discomfort of firing a shot and gets worse if the discomfort continues. Can't say I fully agree with your technique of going real big and then coming down. I have found that the army today, with the M16/M4 system, is producing more flinchers with the students when they come through our course. They just are not used to that big bang and then they try, foolhardily, to get away from it. As stated previously, this causes the weapon to build speed before it whacks you and the discomfort continues.

Come on guys, lets hear some more on the subject. This is how I learn new techniques for teaching and learn period.

Have fun guys and hold hard!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 15:35:51 (EST) 

I am not a sniper in the true sence of the word (as you may have gessed) so please forgive my silly questions.

But I would be greatfull for any replies!

Thanks.

P. Marcos
Pedro Marcos <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, - - - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 15:43:52 (EST) 

And, guys, thanks for the nod on the "American Story"... reminded me of "Fahrenheit 451"

Pablito
Pablito <Paul Coburn>
USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 19:54:58 (EST) 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
O.P., IL. USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 20:27:39 (EST) 

Gooch; I am compelled to mention your right dead on with hand supporting the stock. The front of the rifle is no more important than the rear or the body holding it. I see folk all time come out to the range with a arm load of sand bags and never put one under the rear of the stock only to complain the gun is erratic in it's groups.
It's a very simple thing but most important!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 21:15:36 (EST) 

I will pay attention to my grip from now on. I didn't realize about the two middle finger grip before, thanks Rick.

I suppose in retrospect I think it may also be the position. Since this gun is practically new I am still firing for groups off the bench with earphones and glasses. Everyone complains the benches are low there and I must agree, so shooting the clubs max range of 200 the bags are adjusted to level or slightly downhill. The tables while heavy and constructed well just are off somehow and don't feel right.This all puts me in a slightly uncomfortable position. I have gotten the corner of the comb slammed into my arm more than once.

I am never sure if the thumb plays an important part or not. Perhaps in ultra long range shooting. I was told years ago to put the thumb on top of the shooting hand so if nothing else to not bang your nose. Well after reading some posts about it I decided to start right off and shoot it with my thumb over the top of the stock. Sure enough, I got sloppy and banged my nose when I didn't put my thumb in the pocket on top of the grip. That tought me to watch that but because it still has to be a conscious effort it is another thing on my mind.

I am sure I am going to be shooting prone this comming year and this might eliminate some of my problem. This raises another question of position. Is the accepted method still call for the body to be inline with the rifle?

Gooch: I may take you up on seeing you at SM this summer. The wife and I both love PA and vacation there each year, so who knows. I'll have to time the question just right to her with a promise of a vaca. :)
I am interested in sniper tactics but physically cannot become an LE sniper. Heart Surgery. But I am interested in long range shooting and need a little coaching. Does SM offer just long range shooting classes sans sniper training?

Bill
Bill in Ny <billmohr@borg.com>
central , ny USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 22:14:38 (EST) 

RE: FLINCHING

I'm not quite sure what the fuss is over this flinching business, but here goes:

1. Make sure the shooter is wearing EFFECTIVE hearing protection. In my experience, most novice shooters equate the bang with pain, hence a flinch. I have found a good set of plugs works better for me than ear muffs. I get a much better seal and I can get down on the stock properly with the ear plugs. Eliminate the noise, eliminate the flinch. This would apply to a shooter with at least a little experience.

2. Lots of dry fire. Does anyone know where one can acquire a snap cap in .300 WinMag? I'm not interested in homemade stuff. Been down that road!

3. Don't punish a new shooter. Do NOT put a major caliber firearm in the hands of someone who has never shot before! Do lots of .22 rimfire shooting, then try a .222 or something in that caliber range.
A .308 is too much gun for most new shooters, even in a 12-14 pound gun. Work up to it.

4. There are some psychological aspects that can be brought into play, but that gets a little too hocus-pocus for most people. Suffice it to say, I shot my 1,000 yard matches this past summer with my .300 Winny in a t shirt, shooting anywhere from 15-25 rounds at a sitting, with no discomfort and no bruises, except for my right elbow where it got scraped across the bench. I'm no monster man, I just don't really give recoil much consideration when I shoot. It's kind of hard to explain, but thats the way it is. No brain, no pain, I guess!

Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 23:13:18 (EST)