December 1998

James M.
I Believe the Remington VS has a 1-12 twist any way that is what they advertise..
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 00:31:24 (EST) 

im delurked!! can we have a discussion on tactical knives on here again again like you said we could ?

kudu
kudu <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 12:13:15 (EST) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 13:22:21 (EST) 

I'd just like to tell you that Elmine was born this afternoon, about 15H35. She weighed 3.655kg, and is 53cm long. Both mother and daughter is healthy.

Just thought I'd share.

Marius

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng RSA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 14:57:03 (EST) 

Bach Melik, so we swam in the same pool, probably Kudu peed in it too !

Congratulations Marius !

My best wishes to the mother.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 15:15:21 (EST) 

my latest knife test and other sharp subjects can be discussed best at TacKnifecountry.com
Mc Gyver <SwissarmyKnife@BSnet.ch>
Switzerland - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 15:24:01 (EST) 

The advantage to the wire is that you do not get any reflection off of the flat reticle glass when it is hit with an laser anti-sniper optic detection device. The reticle is the only absolutley flat piece of glass in the scope which will do this. The other curved lenses defract it. Also a wire reticle might stay cleaner over the years. A glass reticle can gather dust spects and metal shavings etc (what ever is floating around inside of the scope)on it.

Having said all of that I prefer the round dots to the ovals. Reticles with .2 mil round dots can be easily broken down into tenths of a mil (.1) while the ovals (.25 mil) are broken down into eigths (.125). The math is easier with tenths and the breakdown is finer.

Kudu, what the sam hell has sparked your interest in knives? Oh wait, I know, you have enough guns and scopes to equip a platoon and now you want to go into knives eh? Here is how you spark a conversation on Sniper Country.

1. Make a bold/silly statement. Example: "I have just purchased a M1917 Springfield in original cosmoline. It shoots .1 moa with Military issue ammo. I would like to know if anyone knows of a replacement barrel and stock for this rifle as I think it is shot out."

2. Insult Rick or me. Example: "Gooch and Boucher are ate up. They are old men without lives and refuse to admit that they are Former Action Guys (FAGS)."

3. Say anything positive about Savage Rifles, Jap Optics or the Fort Benning Sniper School.

Then just stand by for action!

Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 15:26:14 (EST) 

ok, here goes...i have a arisaka type 77 that i would like to convert for a pederson device that i found at a yard sale, anyone have any suggestions on how i should do this? also, i purchased a "slightly" used Mk4 with 1/4 min adjustments. i would also like to know anyone thats capable of taking those dot thingees out of my scope cuz they get in my way when im trying to look at something.

oh, before i forget, does anyone know if b square will make fluted steel scope mount for my arisaka, because EVERYONE knows fluting is cool.

and G, you know i would never call you a F.A.G. to your face, i would stick a note to your back that says F.A.G., but never say it to your face, cuz your my buddy. is buddy still only half of a word?

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 16:41:14 (EST) 

Hey, please accept my congratulations on the birth of Elmine. How do you pronounce that? Does this mean you are a proud father for the first time? May God bless your child with a healthy, and happy life..Your wife and yourself as well.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Atlanta,, Ga USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 16:53:43 (EST) 

Does any oldtime fathers have advice for me? My 4 year old son is a dead shot the first time out! I took him and the pellet gun out for a familiarization and safety teaching. and in 5 min. he was almost able to outshoot me with it(open sights). my question is what should I do to promote him being better? when the first shot dropped low he imediately compensated without any advice or help, he is a super natural at it and I do not even know what I am trying to ask specifically, but I feel he could go so far and want to give him the best help and advice possable. So, any advice and answers to unasked questions would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!
Thanks all,
Mark <mmunds@utw.com>
S.L.C., Utah USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 17:21:17 (EST) 

Judu: Welcome! I would stay away from the scope fluting unless its name contains the word "tactical", the objective is larger than 500mm and it costs more than a new Porsche. After all, everyone knows that it's the trendiness of your equipment that determines your excellence as a sniper. You'll also want a $4000 fluted, moly-coated titanium assault bipod.

BRogers: Great Wiley story. I'll be snickering about that one all day. When I re-tell the story to my friends is it OK to substitute "Iraqi" for "Coyote"? ;^)

Mike: I've been to that 50 yard range at Ord, I watched an H&K presentation there which was fun but you're right, there's not much you can do at 50 yards with sniper rifles. They still have that incedible MOUT training area there (LE only) but I suspect that they don't allow live fire there except for simunitions, blanks and such.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 17:30:18 (EST) 

CONGRATULATIONS!

I hope that everyone is doing well and wish you the best for the future.

Heres an all time "classic" quote line from Parents magazine about seven years ago when my #1 son was born.

"Sleep when your baby does........."

P.S. What a beautiful name for a little girl.
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 17:49:03 (EST) 

On a sadder note : Roy Benavidez, Special Forces NCO and Medal of Honor recipient passed away Sunday, 29 Nov, 1998. He had been at BAMC, Ft Sam Houston, Tx and had to have a leg amputated some time earlier and complications set in. He was one fine Warrior. Hoist a glass and remember, "Fallen Comrades".
Out Here
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Somewhere in the South, USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:02:35 (EST) 

Mark - Let your youngen shoot when he wants to and don't make a big deal out of it. Don't try to put him on a regimen until he wants to go on one. And that probably won't happen for awhile yet. He probably will find something more interesting that will take his attention now and then. Again don't make a big deal out of it. Just "allow" an opportunity for him to shoot now and then. This way he will find it fun and not a "job". The reson I state this is because my daughter was a natural when she was very young and I pushed too hard. She lost all interest for years. When she went to collage, the interest came back and she was the team captain.

Bach - Mark IVs and Ultras have the same objective lens size. The Ultra came in M1, M2, M3, and M3A models. The M2 was a waste of material and very hard to find now. The M3 was a limited production run with 1 MOA windage turrets. I think SOTIC has the most of those in one spot. We seldom use them. While the etched glass may catch debris faster than the wire, and there is a case for laser reflection, I would take the laser etching over the wire any day. Just don't look at electro optical devices! They will do your eyes in. A quick point for the laser crowd. Some guys use lasers that are eye safe to 35 meters. Closer than 35 meters they are not eye safe. Well that laser when observed through a 10x scope is now not eye safe until past 350 meters! That is why I do not point my scope towards any eletro optical device.

Torsten - Unless you want to send it to me for a Christmas present!!!

Scott - The military scopes all have the round laser reticles. It is only you poor civies stuck with the wire footballs, yuck!! Leupold made that decision, because they did not want to be directly associated with the killing of humans, (except when there is a hugh military contract involved!).

Have fun guys and hold hard. Gooch - I AM NOT A F.A.G.! Ate up maybe, but only retired and retarded.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:16:38 (EST) 

Brent "Swede" Ingvardsen
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:41:38 (EST) 

Brent "SWEDE"
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
S-port, La USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:45:12 (EST) 

I was shooting air pistols in an indoor range at Parris Island one day with our coach and my wife dropped by. I gave her my pistol and she drilled by gawd X rings and 10's. Excitedly I asked our coach to spend some time with her as I thought this might be a good way to get her into shooting (and make her expand the non existant gun budget.)

Well after he spent an hour telling her about the fundamentals, position etc. she could never do it again. I think he had made it sound too hard for her and it was supposed to be hard to shoot.

Lesson learned is make sure he doing things right without taking the fun and spontanaity out of it. If he is hitting center then he must be doing it right. Big things is to make sure that the things he is doing are fundamentaly sound so that as he goes on into more precision shooting that he has a good foundation. If you need a good reference track down a copy of USMC FMFM 1-3 or FMFM 0-8. They have changed the FMFM part now but some places still sell the FMFM's. The NRA has some good books n the fundamentals too.

Well time to go. I have have been asked to confirm some laws of physics for MIT. Better get going. The lab is emitting a strange glow.

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:49:25 (EST) 

And I didn't say you were a F.A.G! That was Kudu or was it "turkey molester".... anyway I still like you.
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 18:58:08 (EST) 

Mark <mmunds@utw.com>
S.L.C., Utah USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 19:20:14 (EST) 

Dave, MOUT is strickly for play no live ammo. I have spent some time on the site and wish a had how much the department has spent on my use of Flash Bangs there.

I've spent most of the day looking for Sniper Info on the net. I have to teach an up comming beginner class and was looking for the lazy way out. Looks like I need to get off the net and write a detailed lession plan.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 19:36:24 (EST) 

The 1 moa adjustment is not a mistake. We (the Army sniper program/Rick and the boyz at Bragg) wanted it that way. It enables the scope to have all of the comeups for 100-1000m yet not exceed 1 revolution on the turret and kept the low profile turret. If you decide you can't deal with it, call Premier Reticle and ask about putting a target turret on it.

Tactical scopes are just that, target scopes are just that. Hybrids don't work well in either situation. Pick the right tool for the job. Good luck baby!

Kudu, I wasn't refering to you as turkey molester, that is a nom de jere (?) for scott/x-ring/spider bait/turkey molester/?. If I was going to refer to you as anything I would call you "Master pirate machinist and gunbuilder and former wind reader of mine who skins a squirrel as well as he turns a barrel, who's women have health records that couldn't fit on a CD and who's dog gives better conversation than thee" but that is too long so I'll stick with Kudu until something else catches my fancy.
Gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 20:34:45 (EST) 

Gooch are you still in or can you know call yourself a Former/Retired Miltary Man?

I'm thinking of a new rifle. 40X action, McMillian M-3 stock, 26" K&P Barrel
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 21:20:27 (EST) 

Ding - What's the problem. You are the maximum you can be out. That is 1/2 moa. If you want to shoot NRA bulls, then the X-ring is 1 moa in diameter and hold on the top (or bottom if that is where you are zeroed as out) and you will get dead center x-ring hits IF you do everything else right. Yes you will be 4 inches out of zero at 800 and a whooping 5 inches out of zero at 1000. But then again the x-ring is 10 inches in diameter and the 10 ring is even bigger. If you are shooting other than NRA bulls, then you can easily hold the error. My advise is to zero so that you are 1/2 moa high, that way you have aim points of known deminsions on a head shot. You will find that as you go back you will be dead on at some ranges and 1/2 moa out at other ranges. The reason is that the M3 does not have a cam it uses moa adjustments with a ballistic collar to represent ranges. If you are zeroed at 200 at .5 moa high you will probably be about dead on at 600. One more point on your zero. Shoot for several days and you may find that on some days you will hit POA/POI. This is due to the constant variables of weather, light, eyes, and the ever possible hang over zero. If this is true, besure to write down in your log when you are on and when you are out and by how much.

Mike - Have fun with your lesson outlines and course development! Been there and it is a pain. Remember that finding your material somewhere else is not being lazy, why reinvent info when you can find it someplace else. Then all you have to do is valiate that info. Just becarful of your sources! Some are better than others. Have fun with your course man!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 22:35:53 (EST) 

Time for me to head home, Later....
 

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 22:50:57 (EST) 

Mark: Ref: Your son's shooting ability! Send your son to Gooch for advanced training. Hopefully he won't turn into a F.A.G.

Dave: You are really pushing that 168 grainer to its maximum limits. Way, Way out to 50 yards. Thats almost the next country. Betcha can't even see that far?

Meanwhile back to logical and rational questions: If one were to use 210 Federal Primers to load match bullets with Varget powder, would or should I expect to get better results using 210 Match primers instead. I'm open for suggestions, since Federal 210 Match primers are a little difficult to come by around here and for someone to order them for you costs a lot with the UPS hazard fee. So how much of a drop in accuracy should one expect, if any.

Also CCI Br primers or Winchester primers are they as good as the Federal 210M?

Thnax in advance.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Im traveling thru another dimension, not only of sight and sound but in , Ohio USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 22:56:31 (EST) 

Thanks,

Ken
Ken (NoVa Shooter) <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 23:25:01 (EST) 

Marius,
God bless!
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Orland Park, ILL. USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 23:43:12 (EST) 

Al,
You can use the 210 in place of the match there is not enough difference to even consider the extra expence. When I went from the match to the 210s there was no difference at all in my groups. I never went back,save the extra for a cold one!!

Gooch and Rick,
What's this F.A.G. stuff?? Don't tell me two of my "IDOLS" are giving in to old age. Remember "OLD AGE AND TREACHERY WILL OVECOME SKILL AND YOUTH" Were not getting older, only better right guy's??.......
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 23:58:53 (EST) 

Congratulations and Best Wishes. May she always be healthy and happy.

Doc
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO USA - Tuesday, December 01, 1998 at 23:59:14 (EST) 

a friend showed me a night vision sight last night.
Its of Russian Manufacture and has a infrared laser as part of the whole unit over the objective. Adjustment is conventional, but the laser is used for both lighting and as a reticle/aim point.

Optics look like they came from a camera, and picture quality is a little better than Gen I US.
We were able to "paint" a comunications tower that is 400 Meters away with the laser and still pick it up clearly in the sight.

We´ll use it next weekend when we go out to train our Sniperbabies.
I´ll compare it against my Leupold 3,5-10 LR and will come back with info.

Problem one is that it is an aktive unit, no two is that I dont know how dangerous the laser is, were carefull at the moment.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 07:23:22 (EST) 

ATTENTION:
Since we have more and more professionals visiting the site, I would like to put out a general invitation. If you are currently in the trade or have been in the past, and have had the opportunity to evaluate various types of gear (optics, rifles, ammunition) the SC staff would be very interested in any reviews you might wish to submit. We do not coddle manufacturers here. If a product sucks, we want to know about it. If a sniper can not live with out it, we also want to know about it. Your writing skill is secondary to the information you have to impart. None of us major in grammer and our goal in valid information, not perfect syntax!

One of our goals is to keep those in the field abreast of new developments in the trade, as well as providing reviews of material and equipment relevent to sniper operations. While the Roster is a fun place to hang out, the real meat and potatoes of this site is the information provided on the main page. If you have experience and are willing to share it please consider submitting your thoughts for posting in the Reviews or Articles sections. We are looking primarily for sniping related data garnered from professional experience. While hunting and bench techniques are interesting, they are not the main direction of this site. If you have valuable lessons (tactics or gear) you are willing to share with fellow officers or military personnel (keeping in mind civilians read the page) please consider submitting material. Thank you.

Scott Powers
Sniper Country Staff.
 

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 11:24:37 (EST) 

Thanks!
Crazy J
Crazy J <aejtower@flash.net>
TX USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 12:56:44 (EST) 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 14:20:55 (EST) 

Try soft throw away Contacts first, only for the field outings, and definetly for some training lessons as they will definatly change your zero. Take your glasses as spares as it is a bitch to reinstall a washed out contact lens with fingers that have camo greasepaint on them.

Most Glass makers Zeiss, Rodenstock, etc. offer several types of non glare coatings, choose the best they make, but remember that the coatings are difficult to clean, and may get blurry or smeared with some special glass cleaners.I use warm water and a little liquid soap and wash mine.

Keeping the Glasses in the shade will help keep reflections to a minimum, so wear a baseball or BDU cap with a larger bill. Or if practical a OD green skeeter net.

Here in germany it is fashionable at the moment to wear very thin frames made out of titanium etc. with small lenses that are bolted directly to the frame and not held by it like conventional glasses.
The advantage is that smaller lenses reflect less, and when painting your face you dont look like a bush with glasses. Even on a picture taken from a few yards you can harly see that I´m wearing glasses.

Other than that always remember that the glasses are extra protection for our most sensative and important MkI Eyeball.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 14:25:32 (EST) 

As far as camouflaging eye glasses. About the only thing you can do is to cammy the frames to reduce glare and then wear a boony hat which keeps light off of them. When I wore glasses (and I wore glasses in every USMC and Army course I went through) I tried not to wear them when I was on the gun or on optics to reduce the number of lenses I had to protect. I now use extended wear contacts and take handy wipes, solution and a spare set to the field as well as a set of glasses which can be worn under a gas mask. Once they get this laser surgery shit down I might go for that. Don't mess with the lenses of your glasses trying to cammy them. All you do is look silly and reduce your field of view. It will also give you a headache from hell trying to see through them.

And spider bait. Gooch is not a moniker sah! It is my real name! Proud decendant of Sir William Gooch, of Gooch's Marines (Colonial), Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia and namesake of Goochland city and county in said commonwealth. Hurumph! Moniker my #*&. Now Kudu on the other hand is only his screen name, we usually call him the gerble master or something similiar. My real friends (bofum)call me Mistah Gooch!!

Hey Marius! How goes the diaper changing? Got a buddy of mine who's woman just had twin boys. I feel for you guys. have fun!
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 14:28:26 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 16:58:02 (EST) 

Bolt,
I use the Leupold dual dove tail and they work great!! If you want to swap scope's around then look at the MK4 or other such mount's .
I use the Springfield 2nd Generation mt on my M1A but I must admit I have not shot it a lot. I have heard both good and bad about it .
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 17:46:22 (EST) 

Quite a while ago I posted a concern about tumbling media lodged in the nose cavity of Black Hills 168g Moly Match. After a little experimenting I think I've shot enough of it to say that it doesn't effect accuracy enough to worry about. I carefully removed the media from several boxes, and left others alone as a control. Shooting from 100, 200 & 300 yards with my TBA M40A1 I have shot 100yd groups that average 0.343" with the best being in the low 'teens (Mike builds a hell of a rifle!!!) and the worst (including flyers, gasp!) just under an inch. I have had my shooting partner mix up the batches, so I didn't know what I'd be firing, and overall tried to keep the experiment scientific. This is the only lot of Black Hills Moly I've tried, but I would buy more without hesitation. I want to try the new Federal Moly GM next, and I've got a case of Fed 175g to work on.

Review coming soon, Scott!
SGT Lance M. Johnston <sgtlmj@dmci.net>
USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 18:06:24 (EST) 

To Ken, Scoping the 1917 Enfield
Does this rifle shoot good groups with the battle sights? There is very little difference in grouping ability between peep sights and a scope as long as you are shooting at nice round black bullseyes. I would not consider hanging a scope on one if it did not prove itself by shooting 1 moa or 1.5 moa with the sights that were issued. If it does shoot that well, then what I would do with this rifle is go out and buy an old Unertl target scope. and put it on. You only need do drill and tap four holes and find target blocks of appropriate height to be all set. Of course if you are married you will have to come up with an excuse as to why you are willing to pay more for the scope than you did for the rifle. Just keep in mind that as long as you have the scope on, you cannot use the really nice rangefinder that was built into the rifle.

To Roy: Amax bullets
I have the same experience as you with the Amax bullets. I was disapointed at first try until I started seating them way out there.
Right now I am seating them out to 2.925 OAL in my 308 and I still havent touched the rifleing. These are very long bullets, about .2 longer than the 168 Sierras but the shape of the olvige allows them to be seated out much farther than normal. These Amax bullets shot so well for me that I am going to change my magazine well to 3.0 inches to accomodate them.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ojio USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 18:23:47 (EST) 

Congradulations! Health and happiness to you all.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 22:12:58 (EST) 

Dug the "butts hole" and piled up the firing mounds before freeze-up. Looks very impressive. Contractor has quoted for the concrete work and other essential range installations. It is a very satisfying feeling knowing your club can accomplish in a matter of a year, what other groups never get done in a lifetime, eh.

Book review requested:

Has anyone on sc read "Dead On" by Tony M. Noblitt and Warren Gabrilska? Paladin Press is advertising it for $20. It is my habit to buy good books on shooting, although you lot have made me doubt that one by the MACV 'radio relay guy'.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 22:14:48 (EST) 

Now I have question for someone out there. On my rifle the foward screw on the rear scope mount keeps coming loose(.308) The first time i installed it i used hoppes screw lock, the second and now 3ed time have used the red lock tight. At this time is's shooting great but the last two times at about 80 rounds it came loose. Any Ideas why out there.
The rifle is 110FP Savage with millet scope mounts.
Great to be home,
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
not in Arab, Land USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 22:57:05 (EST) 

Rifle is currently scoped with a Tasco 5-20x50BDC scope, and shoots to sub 0.5 MOA with either 165 or 180 Nosler Ballistic Tips, stoked with IMR4895 and H4350, respectively, but I suspect that the scope is wandering a bit - fire five shots, everything feels right, I've got a cloverleaf, but one of 'em's 3/4 or an inch off... Also some diagonal stringing.

2) Possible safety concern - I have a habit, during load development, of loading a couple of dozen rounds of each type and tossing 'em into a baggie with the load data for the trip to the range. Yeah, boxes would be nice, but since some days are 20+ baggie days, well, the baggies are convenient.

Anywho, noticed that I had a considerable amount of moly dust (hadn't wiped the bullets down) that had spread from the bullets to coat small areas of the rest of some of the cartridges. Since the stuff is a lube, wouldn't it be just as hazardous as firing a lubed case? I.e., the case and neck don't "catch" in the chamber from the pressure, and the case is propelled back full force into the bolt?

So now I make sure I wipe the bullets, etc.
 

bogie <bogie@inlink.com>
STL, Misery USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 23:01:11 (EST) 

For half of my life I've had to wear contacts, and I've lost those damn things from High school football games, hunting trips, scuba diving & swimming, snow skiing, back seat tumble parties, you name it, I've lost a contact doing it.
This past October, I was told that my eyes were past the 20/200 requirment to meet most department regs. so I got the laser eye surgery done, and it was the best move I've done other than calling off my past engagement.
RK surgery is done with either a knife or laser. The old way,(knife) will cut insisions in the eye and is prone to rupture from a blow to the head or recoil. The laser actually shaves the eye and not subjected to limitations that the knife has. Check your insurance to see if they cover it. Some may cover it %100, some just a part of the cost.
After the surgery, a few days are needed off to heal the eyes. No driving, but after a few days you're good to go. While night driving, you will have stars around lights, but vision will be clear. The staring effect will fade away in time. During this time your vision will adjust sharper and clear. By all means, do what the Dr. tells you to do and not to do! Use only the drops that he gives you and throw away all your old contact junk! Doing this, you by-pass many of the things that COULD go wrong.
If you've ever thought about it, at least go and have the check-up so they can tell you where you fit in and what can be done for you.
Now, a month and a half later, I see 20/20. Clear vision, No stars around lights at night, No problems.
If you got the chance, check it out. You won't be disapointed.
( HINT-HINT, Gooch )
D. West <westforce@juno.com>
Pheasent busting in, IL. USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 23:22:31 (EST) 

I was curious if the military had done any research on using suppressors on sniper rifles. Though a supersonic bullet could not be completely silenced, it seems that this would be good way to reduce the muzzle blast and flash that could betray a sniper's position. A number of companies like Gemtech and AWC market detachable centerfire suppressors for bolt guns. Do you have any knowledge you could share with us on the pros and cons of suppressors for sniper rifles?? Of course, comments from anyone else with experience with sniper rifle suppressors would be appreciated.

Jack McC.
Jack McC. <jmcconney@mindspring.com>
Lawrenceville, GA USA - Wednesday, December 02, 1998 at 23:25:03 (EST) 

Glad to hear someone has a new born. My only question is what length of pull for the newborn's rifle. Really enjoy your baby while young. They grow so fast.

Gooch You Are The Man. Thanks again. When/if you get out here or I go there dinner many brews are on me. Just say the word when you need another sling. Really

Well its raining so I guess I'll load ammo and go shooting tomorrow. No one said I was smart. Besides I have to try a new B&L Tactical Scope, it's been tormenting me sitting in the safe all week.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 01:36:21 (EST) 

Bolt,
I must admit to having a early M 305 Norinco Knock off M 1 A serial numer 000328. They must have taken care in the early days of producing these, it is well made, shoots 3" groups at 300 Metres out of the Magazine ! The only thing I burned in my front yard was the banana-case-wood stock. Have a oversized SM Fiberglass stock on it now. Bedded the Action, reamed the flash hider, did the trigger, epoxied the gas piston housing, cut of the little tang that holds onto the front part of the stock, and epoxied the thing in place. Plus all the other things.

The mount I use......... No first this. In 88´ I worked for the company that imported the Springfield M1A´s into Germany, along with these we received the Aluminium Scope mount´s in the regular, and the beefed up style that screws into the clip guide. We/ our customers had problems with these mounts shooting loose, so upon one visit Dennis Reese CEO Springfield showed us how this was suposed to be done.
1. take the stock off, 2. find a nice pice of wood to put under the right side of the receiver. 3. screw the mount on finger tight, 4. Whack the s... out of the big screw with a leather mallet, 5. tighten again, repeat 4. and 5. until mount is seated/mauled into the guides of the receiver.

With this hi tec version fresh in my mind I set of to make my own mount.
Piece of angle iron cut and filed to the shape of the clip guide mount, MK IV bases on top, but I changed the T guide on the Aluminum Mount to having three M5 Allen (worm?) screws that grip into the side of the receiver. Now I can adjust the mount for cant and windage and after doing so and locktite´ing the little buggers in place I have a rock solid repeatable mount that is one of a kind.

Sorry this got so long !

"Ende"
Torsten <Lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 07:49:44 (EST) 

Theres a buncha mounts with a built in taper for elevation corrections ( certainly with more to come as UKD rifle shooting reaches its peak) at longer ranges. MWG, Badger Ordnance, etc. etc. which you can find under another S/C column + the product reviews.
I'm using a standard MWG base w/o shims or such not as the chances of me finding a range past 800 yards is limited along with long range practicing ability. Some say the secret is to make certain everything (base & rings) are installed in alignment with the bore and making certain the scope is optically centered before zeroing.
Theres my 10 cents worth.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, By-Gawd USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 09:30:53 (EST) 

Suppressors ?

The Bundeswehr just purchased the Accuracy International AWF in .300 Win MAG, with a suppressor ! Have not shot it nor have I seen a copy of our new Field Manual ,I´m supposed to have one this Month, in which they should go into more detail.

I made some .50 cans for an elite few of those people that inhabit most of North Afrika, but not much of Israel.
These went on Bolt Action Rifles, and were made out of Titanium/ Aluminum, with an integral Muzzle brake (my Patent), and a few other gimmicks. But since everyone cooks with water in this buisness, even though some believe they are the best since the invetion of sliced bread, nothing in those cans was new exept for the Muzzle brake.

Full power loads were not a problem, and recoil/signature was considerably reduced. The unit will work dry or as a wet pack.

and thats not all I can say about that !

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 10:34:02 (EST) 

Do you by chance subscribe to either Tactical Shooter and/or Precision Shooting magazines? They, like this website, are excellent places to learn stuff from good, knowledgable folks. I understand that you can get info. overload reading all the diff. ways to breakin or clean a barrel. My tendency is to overread stuff sometimes and the my head spins...

Opps... back to work.. I'll post my latest "treatment" later today.
Others may have input as well..
For rifle related and sniper things, you've hit paydirt in my humble opinion. Like you, I'm not LE or Military but I love this stuff too..

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Atlanta, Ga USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 14:26:36 (EST) 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 16:51:13 (EST) 

Jeff
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 17:30:31 (EST) 

save your money, and dont buy a Dragunov unless you want to be laughed at by your serious sniping buddys or want to impress the neophytes on the range. ive never seen a Drag hold anything less than 2 MOA, and thats with "match" ammo. instead, think about buying a bolt gun. if your into slinging lead at a rapid rate go for an M1A or an AR-10.

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 18:11:43 (EST) 

on the subject of russian NODS, i wouldnt use any of the 1st or 2nd gen stuff. when i was in the army we got to use a few of the warsaw pact stuff but all of us complained of headaches after using them for a while. a message from Aberdeen Proving Ground came out finally on the potential hazards of using Warsaw Pact NODS in training because of the unfiltered tubes. dont ask me what sppectrum of light they emitted, but i can assure you the headaches were a major a**kicker. as far as the "new" russian surplus, i cant tell you anything about that.

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 18:28:29 (EST) 

Mark <mmunds@utw.com>
slc, utah USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 18:33:29 (EST) 

Some things to think about for the Law-Enforcement Sniper.
1 - With the mass media always being present when a situation occurres they will be tracing back a shot to it's source. This will reveal the location of the sniper if not a full face shot for the evening news.
2 - The Law-Enforcement Sniper may be called upon prior to a raid or entry to remove any sentry dogs (or just plain mean dogs that are kept to deture any attempt at a skillfull entry).
3 - The Law-Enforcement Sniper may be called upon to knock out lighting for either a raid or a surveillance team. This could be security lighting or street lights.

With the majority of the exhisting suppressed Sniper Rifle systems there is a dramatic shift in the rifle's point of impact due to the weight involved in the suppressor. This will require the re-zeroing of the rifle after cleaning. This then means the Sniper will be putting a dirty rifle away. Also when a shot is fired through the various suppressors on the market there will be condensation form after the shot is fired and the rifle is cooling. This results in rust forming on the barrel and internals of the suppressor. The end result is if you leave the suppressor on the rifle after re-zeroing it will rust. But if you clean the rifle and attach the suppressor later you will not have a proper zero. This is a very bad situation for the Law-Enforcement Sniper. (Not to mention trying to store a Sniper Rifle with an extra 12 to 18 inches added to the overall length.)

I have been involved in the testing of a new Suppressed Sniper Rifle that has the overall length of a normal rifle and none of the associated problems with removing the suppressor for storage or cleaning.

To any bonafide Law-Enforcement Sniper or Instructor I will gladly provide any additional information. Contact me by E-Mail with a method I can verify your credentials and I will be in touch.

Bruce G. Buell
National Coach Development Staff
Bruce G. Buell, NCDS <buellncds@mindspring.com>
Jacksonville, FL USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 18:40:17 (EST) 

DD Bartlett <SniperZ2@aol.com>
Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 19:05:10 (EST) 

For awhile, the FDA actually wasnt allowing them into the US, because
of emitted radiation...

Personally, the tubes arent built well, optics are terrible.
 

Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
redmond, wa USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 20:09:06 (EST) 

In addtion to the suggestions of Gooch and PeteR, you might consider Baer tapered bases. Their claim is to provide approx. 20 MOA extra scope travel. They are two peice weaver style bases that are well made. Price is 65.00 per set. They can be ordered from Lightforce USA. 425 656 1577. They are available for M700 Rem and M70 Win. rifles.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 20:24:26 (EST) 

About Camelbacks. I have been useing a vest by Blackhawk for the last two years. It has a built in camelback, LBE mounting points on the back, a detachable pack, and front pouches that fold and velcro to the rear when you have to crawl. I like it but it is not a catalog item. A local shop special ordered it for me. They cost about $100.00. Yes Gooch I have modified it with several small modifications.

I just got a small camera tripod I want to try for more height adjustment. What is the best way to make a platform for the rifle to sit on? How is it best carried? so far I just roll it in my mat.
 

Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 20:56:44 (EST) 

I just recieved the Mildot Master and it is excellent. But it doesn't have any dope for windage in gale force winds. You laugh. I was at Camp Geiger when Hugo blew in. We were in the middle of a 5 day FTX and the op. consisted of an emergency ex-fil via V-TOL. Well needless to say they never got off the ground and we were forced to sit it out in the bush. While we cowered in our ponchos we contemplated having to dope our Unertyl's. What a joke! I never felt more abandoned in my life. But we did learn why the new generation optics are nitrogen filled. (GRIN!)

Gooch-Any idea when your dope book will be ready for shipment?
 

Ding
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 21:41:29 (EST)

if i mention Plaster is a sniping god on here...will that start an argument too?

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 21:42:53 (EST) 

Best Regards,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 22:07:18 (EST) 

Jack McC - Suppressed SWSs have been used for some years. The use is to lower, significantly, all target indicators given out by the firing of a sniper rifle. It works quite well within several limiations as stated by Bruce Bruell in his post. You also mentioned the sub sonic rounds. Don't bother with them. They can do more harm than good to the mission. One you ahve to get very close for them to be effective and if you miss the enemy will know better than with a full load as to where you are located. You can hear a subsonic round coming and going, thus connect the dots and you are over there! With a full load, you have a sonic crack that is 90 degrees to the sonic wake. This is never in the direction of the shooter. Anyway you look at it, someone is going to know they've been shot at. Use of subsonic in an LEA environment, as described by Bruell, is feasible when taking out lights or dogs without humans around to witness the act. However if a human is around he will hear impact and the whir of the round.

Bruce - On the problem you've been having with the suppressors, you need to check around a lot more. You're problems were solved in the 80s by several different manufacturers that sold to the military. Also a dedicated gun would be the best way to go with the integrated suppressor and barrel. Cuts down on size and some of the hassles.

Rich - Watch out for the Tetra products. The Tetra Gun Grease will go rancid just as butter does and smells worse. Bad news for long storage. The barrel stuff did not impress me. I got a 75 fps increase in muzzle velocity with the stuff, good news, bad news, it didn't stay there and the velocity would become erratic. Check the archives for break in procedures, there are several techniques out there, to include the techniques we use at SOTIC. Or email me if you are interested and I'll try to explain the method we use at SOTIC.

Knightmare - The Draganov SVD is an area sniper weapon system used at the squad level in the Russian Army. It was used so that direct fire can be placed on an attacking or probing element without giving away the location of the crew served weapons until the attack has been committed. It is not an overly accurate weapon and suffers greatly from barrle whip and stamped metal itis. It is a nice goly gee whiz rifle that you can mount on the wall along side of the Isreali version of it known as the Galil. Same principle and same results. Buy yourself a nice bolt gun and have fun shooting long range, or buy yourself a nice M1A, SR, or AR and have fun shooting a lot of rounds, just not as accurately as the bolt gun. Of course, since they are gas guns they are more sensitive to the elements and have to be pampered alot more than the bolt guns.

That should start some squealing! Hold hard guys and have fun!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, December 03, 1998 at 23:31:32 (EST) 

RE: Resetting zero

If my rifle is zeroed at 1,000 yards, and I dial in the necessary clicks to get the crosshair "on" at 300 yards, and THEN I want to dial in clicks to get the crosshair zeroed at 600 yards, do I use the number of clicks to get to 600 based on a 1,000 yard zero, or 300 yard zero? I thought if I backed off from a 1,000 yard zero the required number of clicks to get to 300, that I would just backtrack (go back up) the required number of clicks based on the 1,000 yard trajectory chart to get a 600 yard zero. However, if I must add the number of clicks based on a 300 yard zero, the number of clicks it takes to get a 600 zero is much higher than if I was working from the 1,000 yard zero. I thought I had this stuff all figured out, because when I clicked down the required number of clicks to go from 1,000 to 100, it was right on. THEN, when I clicked in the required number of clicks to get from 100 to 300 based on my 1000 yard zero THAT elevation change was right on. But I am not so sure about going from 300 to 600. Anybody else confused?
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 00:36:30 (EST) 

is a Carcano a accurate Sniper Weapon ? You go and figure !
 

Im off into the beautiful Snowy Forest to melt snow with our Sniperbabies.
I figure by 04:00 we´ll be under 4 to 5 Inches. But it´s a lot warmer then !

See/read you all on Sunday

Have a nice one

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
it is snowing, in Germany - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 08:44:48 (EST) 

I kind of thought it was funny at the time.I'm sorry,it was a terribly slow day at work for me.My mind was allowed to wander.Perhaps I was hungry at the time.

Seriously though,if you had your mind on a Draganov do as Rick says and save your money.Have you ever shot an SKS or any AK derivative? Accuracy in this rifle is reportedly only marginally better than these.

If you want a poor boy's Draganov, take a SKS (D model with detachable magazine I believe) and mount your choice of any available thumb hole type stock and a cheap fixed power scope.You'll get about the same performance and your pocket book will thank you for the money you'll save.

To Kudu & Rick:That does it,you've burst my little sniper bubble.How dare you challenge the all mighty Plaster as Sniper God ?I know he's the Sniper God because he's told everyone that he is.It's too bad that Sniper God can't find enough time in his busy schedule to update his web site.

Regards,
Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 12:12:33 (EST) 

You have relatives on Elm Street perhaps?

I did a T&E on a Chinese Dragunov copy about 7 years ago, when all was said, done, and measured, it was nothing more than a wannabee OR "EXTENDED CAB" AK variant. What a waste!
Give me any old generic bolt gun i.e. Carcano/ SAVAGE / Moisin Nagant/ Lee Metford/ Krag and I'd feel a heck of a lot more secure in my abilities.

I second (third?) the current opinions presented on the rifle
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 14:24:56 (EST) 

I still need help on what is the best platform to put on a camera tripod to make a rifle rest.

I went to gunstore today to buy action for my new rifle. Turned out cheaper to buy a whole rifle. By the time I sell the stock and bbl off the PSS I will be ahead.

PS Gooch is the NCOIC on this site........
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 18:28:09 (EST) 

RE: 300 WinMag

Should you choose a 300 to shoot? After using a 308 for two decades with outstanding success (20+ one shot instantaneous kills), I decided I needed "more rifle". I purchased a Remington Sendero and proceeded to learn the rifle. What I have learned so far is that the rifle has more recoil, however the weight of the rifle helps soak up some of the kick, it is more expensive to load for just by virtue of the caliber, and I tend to overestimate my abilities with this rifle. My Sendero is very accurate, but successful long range shooting il, lves more than raw accuracy. I am learning this little by little. This past week I missed a 600 yard shot by being sloppy on reading a mildot range and thinking the flatter trajectory of the 300 would compensate for my "close is good enough" attitude. WRONG! Having said all this, the final decision is up to you. In a pure sniping role, I tend to believe a 308 is the way to go. If you are looking to jazz up some hot velocity numbers and such, by all means, get the 300!
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 20:07:01 (EST) 

On the camera tripod thing. Someone recommended aluminum U-channel a while back. I have used PVC pipe cut lengthwise. Pad whatever you use. Screw the "whatever" to the quick release adapter/shoe on the tripod (the part that comes off). You can then get other adapters/shoes for other devices and have multiple uses for the tripod.

Mr Stark. Clovis was the town with the range facility that I douldn't remember a few days ago. There are a few Northern California guys on this site that were looking for a good range. You got information on the 1000 yard range near Clovis? I shot an NRA match their once when I was stationed in Vallejo. At least I think it was Clovis. It has been a while.
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 20:17:35 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 20:31:40 (EST) 

Bolt - Yes I can see the difference! It is very apparent when you view the scopes side by side in the identical conditions at dusk.

Richard Stark - I would advise against the 300 Win Mag until you know for sure what you want the weapon to accomplish. If it is only for medium range shooting than the .308 is the way to go. Less recol, less maintenance problems, cheaper overall. This is especially true if you plan on doing alot of shooting. The 300 will eat a barrel in anywhere from 800 to 2000 rounds. Another consideration is the type of shooting that you will be doing. Rapid transitions to targets and the 300 will eat your shoulder since you can't properly seat the butt into the shoulder pocket to totally absorb recoil. After a few shots you will start to show signs of the wonderful flinch.

Gooch - NCOIC, good title, I like it!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 22:32:05 (EST) 

Gooch I have never shot at Clovis. I have heard of it but I normally just shoot the ranges they have the Police Olympics . 1999 is supposed to be near Pasadena? No one knows which range yet, but no Pendalton. Too bad I would like to shoot at Pendelton. Doesn't matter this year I switched to a mouse gun with fancy sights. I'll probably never hit the target again with all the excuses taken away.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 22:32:19 (EST) 

If your rifle is shooting 1/2 MOA AS IS...do you need to have the action trued ?? Had a 2.25 group at 500yds on English Range and now wonder if the expense is needed or worth having the work done ?? Any gunsmiths, Gooch or Rick (at Ft Drag) jump on in !! That group was 8 shots of factory Norma 168's and wind was nil. Sure wish Santa would send me a chronograph and another keg of powder !!
Out Here
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 23:02:52 (EST) 

I wish that I could only say proudly with honor the words
"Semper Fidelis" With thoughs who fight so willingly for our country. And a special salute to thoughs who do not go out into the war zone with the suport of a platoon, but alown, or with just one other, to serve their country with there mastered skills of field craft, observation, and marksmanship. I have been called away from my dream to be a Corp sniper, to wage a diferent war, against a different enemy, I have been apointed by a higher power, to preach his word, and that is now my longing. But I love my military brothers, and will forever support you.

fellow long range shooter,
JSB
Joshua Belokur <Jbelokur@mvnc.edu>
MT. Vernon, OH USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 01:31:29 (EST) 

Grey <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Alaska USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 01:39:50 (EST) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Glad December Tiding in the Grand State of , Ohio USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 09:24:37 (EST) 

Who makes the best tripod "shoe" adapter for Robins Egg Blue pumps? Canon, Leica, Minolta, Nikon? Sounds like a convenient carry method. Remember to check the S/M snailbox regularly next week!

Kudu, Torsten, Ron N. and all,

One piece scope bases vs. two piece bases, which is better for the absolute beginner? WHY! Lets start a real firestorm and it can be archieved.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, ByGAwd USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 09:38:05 (EST) 

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Second Post This Morning in , Ohio USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 09:55:57 (EST) 

First - Check out your application of the fundamentals. If your position is weak you will get more recoil. Make sure you are placing the stock firmly in the pocket of your shouilder and pulling slightly to the rear with your gripping hand which is also gripping firmly. Your weapon and upper body should recoil together. You can install a thin layer of sorbathane padding in your shooting jacket too. Some guys might scoff at it but if you look at all shooting jackets there is a pad thier for recoil. It can't be too thick or it will screw you up. Mak sure it has a non-skid cover on it if you do this. But your postion must still be firm!

Second - Flinching, bucking, jerking.... whatever, are all physical actions caused by the mind. They are mental "problems" not physical. So you need to work on the mental process of firing a shot. You should set aside a few moments each day to sit down an visualize yourself firing good shots. See yourself doing everything right which wil result in a perfect shot. Come up with a set procedure or routine that you go through before a shot. There is a book out there called "With winning in mind" by Lanny Basham. Mr Basham was a member of the USA MTU and an olympic shooter. It taught me a lot.

Third - Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. But dry fire correctly. Apply the two steps above and dry fire. This will help you to turn the trigger pressing action into a subconcious rather than concious act. WHich is what you are after.

Fourth - Find a coach to help you out. THe bigger NRA clubs usually have a couple of trained coaches around.

All else fails...I'll be at Storm Mountain next year! Come on in!

Boys reformatory in Vallejo? Uh uh. Marine Corps Security Forces. WHich, I guess, is close to a boys reformatory.

Gooch
 

goooooch <gooc@stormmountain.com>
USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 12:18:30 (EST) 

On the 300WM I've been there and done that and I loved the caliber!! But like the expert's say you can do everthing you need to do with a 308 for a lot less and have a lot more fun doing it. If the balistic's and wind drift is you argument then try the 260Rem or a simmilar 6.5 or 7MM you get just as good a ballisstic's as the 300 with the recoil of a 243 and more knock down at 1000yds than a 308. I know I didn't believe it either but look it up!! Now your talking fun shootin!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 12:47:22 (EST) 

RE: Mid - Price 'Scopes
 

In reading the many and varied posts concerning which scope to put on a rifle, I have noticed a trend that seems to put shooters in two camps: One camp wants the top of the line, ultimate, super whiz - bang model that costs almost as much as my first new car, and the other camp seems to want to mount an economical scope that comes in around the $200 range or so.

Might I humbly suggest that there are lots of mid-priced scopes that are just the ticket for a wide range of uses. In particular, the model that comes to mind is the Leupold Vari-X II. It is offered in a wide selection of magnifications, reticles, and finishes, and really presents what I believe to be an outstanding scope for the money. After owning a bunch of different makes of scopes, and studying many others, I chose a Vari-X II model for my long-range rig because, I imagine, like many other shooters here at SC, I do not have a bottomless well from which to draw my funds, and the Vari-X II fit the bill.
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 17:32:55 (EST) 

If it shoots .5 moa don't mess with it. You can only make it worse!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 19:46:55 (EST) 

Called Leupold and, after being passed around from one idiot to the next, to find someone that understood what I was talking about (remember the good ole' days when only shooters worked for shooting companies?)...
...I was told that the figure's for the BDC were given to them by the military, and since they sold 85 out a 100 of these to the military, that was what they went with. After some poking around in a ballistic program, it turns out that the "308M" dial is for the 175 Match King at 2700 fps... 100 fps faster than the stuff that Federal and others are selling to the public. And the dial is also in "meters". The "M" may be for "Military", or "Meters" (or both).
Another call to Leupold, this time higher up the ladder, and I found out that they made a short run of 50 dials for the 168@2600 load, and sent me one to evaluate. This one was marked "308Y"
It worked just fine... alla' way out to 1000 yards. It will also perfectly track the 155 Palma at 2670 fps alla' way out to 1000 yards.

About the MK4 Bases… they won't allow the M3 3.5x10 LR to track past about 700-ish yards… there's not enough elevation. I replaced the bases with Baer bases (from "Lightforce" for $65). The Baer bases are identical with the MK4's in appearance, and quality… you can't tell them apart when they are side by side… and the Baer bases will give you 25 MOA more elevation...
These bases put the LR back in the M3 3.5x10 LR, making it usable from 50 yards to about 1200 yards.

Leupold says they're going to make new dials available for the 168@2600 Match load in the Spring or early summer, if you have one of these puppies.

de Pablito (The Bandito)

Paul Coburn <condor@mags.net>
CT USA - Saturday, December 05, 1998 at 19:59:15 (EST) 

Recoil \ Flinching:
My most comfortable a accurate shooting position puts the stock damn near on top of my collarbone, which can hurt after a while. My solution is to glue a piece of closed cell foam onto my M-24 and M-14, then adjust the stock to fit again. Looks like hell but works a charm. Found it alot more convenient than padding clothing.

A buddy of mine worked a way around the BDC problems on his personal M-3A. Being a reloader, he was hating that his pet load of the month did not match the BDC, so he just removed the markings on the dials, cold blued them, then went to the range and when he was on target at whatever distance, put his own marks on the turret.
E Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Grevious, ROK - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 04:50:45 (EST) 

I have to agree with most of what has been said about controlling flinch, BUT, I guess I wouldn't be me if I didn't have at least one different opinion.

I have never understood the notion that the gun should surprise you when it goes off. How can you possible shoot accurately if you don't know when the gun will go off? In addition, if you have a quality trigger and have shot a thousand rounds with that rifle, how can you not know, EXACTLy, when that gun will fire? I am a firearms instructor and teach the "Unexpected Explosion" method to new shooters because they have no notion of how much the gun will recoil, but I can not imagine myself watching an osculating horizontal figure-eight sight picture and not know the precise moment to light the fire.

As stated, pull the rifle into your shoulder with the two fingers of your trigger hand and get a good repeatable cheek weld. One thing I do differently is to rest the thumb of my shooting hand on top of my trigger hand and not rap it around the stock, this way I can't torque the rifle as I firm up my grip.

Now this should start some S#%T !

Stay Safe

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Just getting going in , Magnificent, West Virginia USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 10:58:10 (EST) 

On the M3A BDC. Andy Webber of Armament Technology "www.armament.com" is beginning to produce custom laser etched turrets for the M3 series. Contact him if you are interested.

On the trigger control issue. You'll notice I didn't say that the weapon going off should surprize the shooter. To the contrary the shooter (sniper) must know when the round is going of. You can't shoot a moving target if you don't.

What I said was that the sniper must develop the act of pressing the trigger into a subconcious act. This subconcious act is similiar to you tying a shoe. You conciously decide to tie the shoe but you don't think "Okay, left over right, pull, form a bow, right over left, etc." your mind has developed a form of a conditioned reflex that allows you to tie the show without really thinking about it.

How does this relate to shooting? You train your subconcious mind to press the trigger when the concious mind see's the sight picture that it wants or recieves any other action key you want to train it to react to such as the countdown of a hostage rescue op.

Many of you have already experienced this without knowing it. How many times have you fired a shot when you thought you weren't ready and it ended up a dead center bull? The chance is that you're subconcious saw what it wanted and pressed the trigger.

To truely train your mind to do this requires thoudands of repetitions. That is why I told ya'll to dry fire a lot and visualize this stuff. Your mind is like a computer, program it to do what you want and it will, even under stress.

Okay, now I'll be gentle here. Guys if you are getting movment in your sights when firing from supported prone, enough that you are having to time your shot, something aint right. When firing from the prone with a 10x scope that sight picture shouldn't be moving, period! Higher powered scopes might be a problem.

A very common problem in the prone is picking up the heart beat. If you are using the classic, both feet flat on the deck prone, you might want to try the cocked leg position to get your sternum/diaphram off the ground a bit. This is really important when shooting under stress. For a right handed shooter simply draw the strongside leg up and point the weakside foot in and shift your weight to the left hip a bit. If you are training to be a tactical shooter (as that is what this site is supposed to be about) don't raise your butt up too high or bring that leg up too far. You will increase your own target signature and take up too much room in a hide. Don't confuse this with the "roll-over prone" used by tactical pistol shooters. It is similiar, but not the same.

Another problem is being too low to the ground. Same thing with the heart beat. Try raising your support an inch at a time, which will require bringing your elbows in thusly raising your chest. I find 8-10 inches is about right for me and my build (6', 210). It is possible to get too low. Not only will you get heart beat but you will strain your neck trying to see through the scope. If the buttstock is on or near the ground you may be too low.

Its hard to diagnose problems here but these are some of the more common problems I've run into over the years.

Anything to add Master Rick?
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 12:47:45 (EST) 

we was wundering where you wer? welcome back pardner! missed you enlightening and creative input!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG CiTy, BY-gawd USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 12:56:26 (EST) 

fUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTION RECOIL..................
Is that what some circles call

Please sir, may Ihave another One?
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
OUCH CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 14:50:51 (EST) 

Spec. Starkovich, Thai A.
U.S. Army Infantry
Spec. Thai Starkovich, U.S. Army Infantry <atease33@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 15:22:49 (EST) 

Gooch - Excellent description of the prone position. That army, lay both feet flat, toes out, chest on the ground, all weight on the diaphram crap has ruined more shooters' positions than I know of. I concur about the movement of the scope reticle with the 10x. It should not be more than a perceived .5 moa at most. If you have movement than your position is bad. On of the most common reasons for that movement is resting the non-firing hand on the firing shoulder while in the prone supported. It does not go there! It goes on the ground supporting the butt of the stock. The reason is why we banned sand socks at SOTIC. The shooter finds the weapon so stable with the bipod and the sock that he doesn't properly control the weapon with his firing hand/shoulder and cheek weld. This transmits pulse, muscle quiver and everything else through the weapon. The next rpoblem is personal body make up, and that is weapon height. You must stay low but not too low. Find the height that best fits your body. I have found that most shooters shoot from too high of a position, because of the bipods that they have bought. I use the low Harris and they work great for my body size (5'9" and 165 lb). The higher power scopes you see more wobble becuase the perceived size of .5 moa at 10x is smaller than .5 moa at 24x.

Bill - I was assuming he was talking about a flinch and not a jerk. One is a mind set to make the weapon go off while the other is a mind set to get away from the weapon once it has gone off. This is usually caused due to the discomfort of firing a shot and gets worse if the discomfort continues. Can't say I fully agree with your technique of going real big and then coming down. I have found that the army today, with the M16/M4 system, is producing more flinchers with the students when they come through our course. They just are not used to that big bang and then they try, foolhardily, to get away from it. As stated previously, this causes the weapon to build speed before it whacks you and the discomfort continues.

Come on guys, lets hear some more on the subject. This is how I learn new techniques for teaching and learn period.

Have fun guys and hold hard!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 15:35:51 (EST) 

I am not a sniper in the true sence of the word (as you may have gessed) so please forgive my silly questions.

But I would be greatfull for any replies!

Thanks.

P. Marcos
Pedro Marcos <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, - - - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 15:43:52 (EST) 

And, guys, thanks for the nod on the "American Story"... reminded me of "Fahrenheit 451"

Pablito
Pablito <Paul Coburn>
USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 19:54:58 (EST) 

D. West <westforce@juno.com>
O.P., IL. USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 20:27:39 (EST) 

Gooch; I am compelled to mention your right dead on with hand supporting the stock. The front of the rifle is no more important than the rear or the body holding it. I see folk all time come out to the range with a arm load of sand bags and never put one under the rear of the stock only to complain the gun is erratic in it's groups.
It's a very simple thing but most important!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 21:15:36 (EST) 

I will pay attention to my grip from now on. I didn't realize about the two middle finger grip before, thanks Rick.

I suppose in retrospect I think it may also be the position. Since this gun is practically new I am still firing for groups off the bench with earphones and glasses. Everyone complains the benches are low there and I must agree, so shooting the clubs max range of 200 the bags are adjusted to level or slightly downhill. The tables while heavy and constructed well just are off somehow and don't feel right.This all puts me in a slightly uncomfortable position. I have gotten the corner of the comb slammed into my arm more than once.

I am never sure if the thumb plays an important part or not. Perhaps in ultra long range shooting. I was told years ago to put the thumb on top of the shooting hand so if nothing else to not bang your nose. Well after reading some posts about it I decided to start right off and shoot it with my thumb over the top of the stock. Sure enough, I got sloppy and banged my nose when I didn't put my thumb in the pocket on top of the grip. That tought me to watch that but because it still has to be a conscious effort it is another thing on my mind.

I am sure I am going to be shooting prone this comming year and this might eliminate some of my problem. This raises another question of position. Is the accepted method still call for the body to be inline with the rifle?

Gooch: I may take you up on seeing you at SM this summer. The wife and I both love PA and vacation there each year, so who knows. I'll have to time the question just right to her with a promise of a vaca. :)
I am interested in sniper tactics but physically cannot become an LE sniper. Heart Surgery. But I am interested in long range shooting and need a little coaching. Does SM offer just long range shooting classes sans sniper training?

Bill
Bill in Ny <billmohr@borg.com>
central , ny USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 22:14:38 (EST) 

RE: FLINCHING

I'm not quite sure what the fuss is over this flinching business, but here goes:

1. Make sure the shooter is wearing EFFECTIVE hearing protection. In my experience, most novice shooters equate the bang with pain, hence a flinch. I have found a good set of plugs works better for me than ear muffs. I get a much better seal and I can get down on the stock properly with the ear plugs. Eliminate the noise, eliminate the flinch. This would apply to a shooter with at least a little experience.

2. Lots of dry fire. Does anyone know where one can acquire a snap cap in .300 WinMag? I'm not interested in homemade stuff. Been down that road!

3. Don't punish a new shooter. Do NOT put a major caliber firearm in the hands of someone who has never shot before! Do lots of .22 rimfire shooting, then try a .222 or something in that caliber range.
A .308 is too much gun for most new shooters, even in a 12-14 pound gun. Work up to it.

4. There are some psychological aspects that can be brought into play, but that gets a little too hocus-pocus for most people. Suffice it to say, I shot my 1,000 yard matches this past summer with my .300 Winny in a t shirt, shooting anywhere from 15-25 rounds at a sitting, with no discomfort and no bruises, except for my right elbow where it got scraped across the bench. I'm no monster man, I just don't really give recoil much consideration when I shoot. It's kind of hard to explain, but thats the way it is. No brain, no pain, I guess!

Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Sunday, December 06, 1998 at 23:13:18 (EST) 

Good input on flinching etc.!

Had a great weekend in the snow, showed some old WWII black&white Winter training movies before going into the field.
Tried a new Winter Ghillie, and found it to be exellent in snowy froests with everything frosted up. Could not make out a kneeling man with Steiners at 100 Meters. Any input ?
Has anyone else tried white clown´s face paint with green splotches ?
We made extensive use of white platic foil that is used by farmers to cover corn cob mix in a silo, packs small, covered positions and taped it to the gear and weapons.

Both our NV sights dropped out during the night with dead rechargeble Batteries due to the cold. Made a extension from com wire, paper, and 100mph tape so we could carry the batts inside our clothing, units worked for another two hours thereafter and then died.

"Ende"
Snowman Torsten <lasercon@dialup.de>
Germany - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 04:27:25 (EST) 

WW2 instruction movies.

My favourites:

German: "Maenner gegen panzer" (60min).

Finland: "Skipatrol" (60min).

There are a german WW2 90min sniper-instructionmove around. It was advertised for sale on VHS in "Deutche Waffen Journal" in the early 80'ies. I was never able to get it.

Wintercamo:

I've only used regular white wintercamo. There is no "room" for a ghillie in the winterpack, 30kg sucksack + skies.

Fighting a well equiped army in cold winter? Just wait 24hours and you are on equal terms :-)

Hunted deer on saturday. -16degC and strong wind.(people think we're crazy...) My huntingbuddy's Rem 700 SA misfired. Too much oil in the bolt.(hehe, still got two tags)
 
 
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 05:38:05 (EST) 

just got one in.

any clues on the Magazine ??? Can it be clipped to hold 5 rounds ?

are there 10 Rounders available ?

Thanks for you help friends.
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 07:47:36 (EST) 

But 20 hits should be better than just 4!

Once again thanks for your kind replies.

P. Marcos
P. Marcos <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 08:18:37 (EST) 

I think the key to recoil control may also have to take into consideration cumulative blunt trauma to the shoulder and head. Any thoughts? You know the better shape you're in the better you can take a punch. Stock dimensions, length of pull, recoil pad suppression capabilities, might play a little into the game a little, Add in body indexing and bipod height too. I'm re-learning what Rick and Gooch are feeding us here. Thanks for the valuable real world input Guys, You Da MEN!!

Torsten, have fun with the 700-DM! feed us some euro-component handloading data once you got it broken in. Lapua/Hirtenberger slugs etc. What the heck is a winter Ghillie, a Polar bear skin?
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
punch happy, by-gawd USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 09:34:44 (EST) 

They have an excellent site and Mr. Thomas answered many questions this weekend. Their prices are excellent also.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 12:02:34 (EST) 

Roy out.
 

Roy <thomason@cos.saic.com>
CS, CO USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 12:04:35 (EST) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 14:31:09 (EST) 

Now the .308 winchester/7.62 NATO on the other hand: 200 rounds in a day is doable and shooting 100 rounds is cake for most shooters. You can get a real feel for the rifle and its abilities when shooting this much in one or two outings. If you are going to practice for tactical shooting, a .300 is not the best route to follow as it doesn’t perform dramatically better than the .308 when it comes to practical terminal ballistics nor does it allow you to shoot as much. Less bang for the buck as it were. If you hunt Elk once a year, by all means the .300WM is excellent, but if you are practicing tactical shooting ALL year, the big magnum does have its drawbacks. It certainly has its place in the tactical field, but I do not believe for the average shooter.

Best advice to anyone looking to get a new tactical rifle, get a heavy barreled .308 and a case of ammo. Find a long Range and practice a LOT. Ignore all your other rifles. Let them sit collecting dust for a while. Become one with this rifle. Learn it like your wife’s better attributes. I’d rather be totally proficient with one rifle than have a basic skill with a lot of rifles. The last thing a tactical shooter needs is a short attention span!
Scott <xring>
USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 15:08:33 (EST) 

Sorry for the pulpit pounding. Been that kind of day. If I seem a little uncompromising on this topic, please understand that the nature of the use dictates what will work. As we are talking sniping here, the affordable general purpose rifle scope doesn’t rate much mention. They can and do work for close in shooting, but they do not allow the precision required for this topic. To sum it up, if I had a choice of buying a mediocre scope today or saving up the $400 necessary for a entry level tactical scope sometimes in the future, I’d start saving today. Why spend the money twice?

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 15:15:23 (EST) 

By the way, if anyone has trouble with the balistic drop indicator on the top of the LR M3 turret (or any other BDC type turret), just ignore the markings! Use the lower MOA markings until you know what the actual come-up is per 100 yards or meters. Then RE-MARK the upper dial indications. This is simple and FAR more accurate than relying on some pencil necks given data. Your rifle is not going to match the turret markings exactly, so why not just make it match your actual balistics?

Last note form me for the day: Remeber the dead. December 7 is a good a day as any to recall the sacrifice of soldiers the world over.
Scott <xring>
USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 15:23:25 (EST) 

Regards,
Mike Flynn

Mike Flynn <autaugaarms@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 15:26:43 (EST) 

Thanks for any information anyone can give me. I have a new Remington 700 Police and don't want to shoot it until I have the proper cleaning equipment.

BTW This is a great Web site; I visit several times a week.
Roland Bailey <roland.t.bailey@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu>
Kingston Springs, Tennessee USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 15:33:24 (EST) 

Bolt, Badger? :-)

X-Ring (a.k.a. Many other things) good posts dude nice to know someone else follows the "one-gun" concept. I did a thorough housecleaning a few years back and only kept the shooters, made wifey pretty happy too.
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG CitY, By-Gawd USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 16:24:53 (EST) 

B. Rogers mentioned curing flinching while shooting a .44 by going to a .444 Marlin. I got to thinking about that, and thought I'd mention what worked for me. A few years ago, just learning to shoot, I had a terrible problem with flinch. Didn't matter the caliber, flinched with everything. Anyway, a buddy of mine owned a 6mm PPC, and taught me to shoot it almost freestyle. Basically, only the trigger finger, middle finger, and barely grazing the stock with my cheek were the only holds on that rifle. Oddly enough, no flinch. I realized that the firm hold was causing the problem before that. I had too much tension, and flinched everytime. With a freehold style, there was no tension. Granted, I got wacked pretty good, but it was a small price to pay for .2 MOA. Gotta love those benchrest rifles with 2 oz. triggers :) That's my .02 cents anyway.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 18:44:17 (EST) 

Just one question after the diatribe on professional snipers shooting the highest quality scopes money can buy: How many truly professional snipers have to buy their own scopes for work? Aren't they issued their equipment by the department they work for? Sorry to have "cheapened" your site by having the temerity to suggest that anything less than your idea of acceptable equipment would get the job done.
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 18:48:53 (EST) 

Can anyone recommend a good set of earplugs to wear? The phones I use are moderate ones rated noise reduction of 27, these are more than sufficiant for .45-110 or .300wm but all the earplugs I see if rated at all are nr6-7 and just not enough. When I am lined up in the butt and scope the phones are touching the top of the stock.

I have a set of my old military plugs that I keep in good condition so remain soft and plyable, but they are not enough for a .357 so I need either thin phones or a good rated plug.

I checked the SM website before but was unclear as to if thier LRR courses were setup to be only a part of sniper courses or if they are separate. BTW the good weather is going fast. 65deg here this morning and now 35 and falling. Maybe next year.
bill in ny <billmohr@borg.com>
central, ny USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 22:27:20 (EST) 

Men as a contributor to this site I find it my duty to advise you that if you are considering buying a prefab ghillie that you are blowing good money if you pay over 200.00 bucks on one. I have seen these things go for as high as 700 fricking dollars! Men, I am in the civilian firearms buisness now too, but I call for all of my buddies to drill me through the cranium if I ever start screwing people like that!! I'm not saying that the former Marine mentioned on here is doing this but I have seen the suits go for the above price. Spend the money on more ammo or ......take that extra "I just want to throw away money" money and make a contribution to "The Gooch Fund" c/o Storm Mountain Training Center, Elk Garden WV.

Men, I promise that soon I will throw together a piece for this site which will tell you how to build one version of this critter. It takes some work and a sewing machine or an upholstery shop will help, but you can build your own for around 200.00 or less. 99% of us that have done this shit in the military have built our own. Some guys (usually sailors:-)) want to avoid the stay up all night, wait til the last minute before the first stalk, hating life, needle and thread/shoe-goo ritual, but the rest of us real men go through it.

Yeah baby!! Stir it up!! One, two, three, what are we fighting for?! I don't know, don't give a damn, next stop is Vietnam!!Woo hoo!!!

I'm in a feisty mood tonight. "Sarge" my brain dead Rottenweiler is in love with the Jack Russel terrior next door who is in heat and the SOB is making a fool of himself, howling and crying all into the morning hours. About took the claw hammer to his ass about 0300 this morning. Sleep deprevation is cool!

Marius knows the deal huh papa?

Give me that old Maine Corps spirit, give me that old Marine Corps spirit, give me that old Marine Corps spirit...its good enough for me!!!OOh Rah!!

Rick thinks I'm Manic. Don't you?

I'm not paranoid and neither am I!

Okay, okay, okay. I'm alright now.

Gooch is going to bed!
 
 
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 23:17:59 (EST) 

I seem to remember something from racing about titanium not being particularly good in impact strength.
 

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD USA - Monday, December 07, 1998 at 23:45:47 (EST) 

Thanks to all of the veterans on this historic day, especially those that never made it home.

Scopes, buy the $30 simmons to let you shoot until you can afford good glass. I have learned the hard way that there is no in between. out of four moderately priced ($250-400) Leupolds of various model that I have bought in the last three months two out of three are screwed up one hasn't been mounted or shot yet. I tried to save money by not buying the european stuff and it's going to end up costing me half again as much in the end. These scopes were actually for hunting rifles but ruining a hunting trip is not worth buying an inferior scope just to save a few bucks. Again, if you can't afford good glass, buy the cheapest thing you can find until you can. Pat has the good ideas, sell something, sell everything that isn't nailed down. The same thing goes for mounts in my experience, if you can't afford Badger or MWG, use the inexpensive dual dovetail until you can.

Will the 3.5-10 M3 LR turrets work on the fixed 10x M3?

you guys were right about shooting .22s at 200, it's hard because the wind does all kinds of funny things to that little bullet. Anybody that doesn't have a .22 bolt gun should get one.

Leupold Mark IV M3, who makes the same layout but higher quality? Zeiss had been mentioned in the past but I can only find hunting type scopes listed by dealers.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 02:08:07 (EST) 

what gives? you were being so, uh, normal. Yor dawg has Feelings man you gotta relate. Are you sure it was the terrier and not a banjo player or nocturnal turkey molester?

How about a Gooch n Bowcher discourse on reducing dust signature from the prone position to re-direct those Feelings, nothing more than Feelings

Oh-God it's happening to me tooooooooo
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIg cITY, bY-GAWD USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 09:45:46 (EST) 

Scott (TOO): Nobody said you was cheapening the site. In fact I did not even know who made the post on the low budget scopes. Sadly, many police do have to buy their own gear. As one would expect, the big departments seem to have unlimited budgets while the smaller ones are somewhat limited. I even hear a lot of police have to buy their own side arm! Some police are known to use medium to bottom budget scopes. I even saw a video of a cop using a deer rifle with a crappy Tasco or something on top. These will get the job done if the expectation is not high and the range not far, but these rifles are hardly ideal. I guess a case could be made that a .22 rimfire could do the job if the range is short enough. My point was that for a well rounded and totally versatile set up, the department is better surved by a purpose made optic and rifle combo.
 

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 09:59:06 (EST) 

Did I read your post correctly? You are taking the full week advanced course again this year?

ONE GUN MAN: Guys, before you misread me, I have more than one gun. I just can not limit my soul that way! My point was that I only shoot one gun for the most part - training with it all the time. I shoot it until I completely feel it is a part of me. Till the muscle memory is ingrained. The rest of the collection collects dust and is there to just fondle once in a while or use when necessary. Some never get shot and are collector pieces only. More precisely, I try to stick with one TYPE of gun per catagory. On bolt rifle type, one semi-rifle type and One Handgun type ONLY. I know a guy with dozens of types who SHOOT dozens and is great at none of them. He takes SIGS, Colts, S&Ws, H&Ks and about four others to the range AT THE SAME TIME!!! You learn nothing but how to make them go bang! I have watched him fire 50 rounds, put a gun away, pick up another, fire another 50 rounds. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

There is nothing wrong with owning a lot of rifles. But if you want to MASTER any one of them, the rest need to sit unused. You can help the situation by only pruchasing one brand of rifle. If I take a 700 ADL for a deer hunt, or the PSS for a class, or the 700VS for a varmint hunt, I am essentially shooting the same rifle. BUT knowing any ONE of these three takes time and practice if I really want to master it. Particularly what it will do at long range.

A true One Gun Man, only owns one gun. Much to my wife's chagrin, I just can't do it!!! ;-)
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 10:31:46 (EST) 

Scott(too)
I don't think Scott was knocking any ones equiptment, in fact I thought he stated his point ratehr well. He was saying that this is a sight that is dedicated to sniper's and the tactical shooting (which is the civilian version of snipeing) Both of these shooting style's make extra demands on both rifles and esp. optic's and when the in house experts answer our questions they answer them in that contex. Like I had said in an earlier post "We all tend to look at and answer question's in our own little narrow field of shooting" sometime's forgetting what this sight is actually about. Even when Gooch give's me Sh.. about being a sailor I don't mind, because he and all the other's have given me so much more. I hope this help's to clear up any misunderstanding you may have had.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 12:16:22 (EST) 

Torsten:
I'll take a ride to a large police supply store near Chicago where I bought my PSS and ask about availability and price of 10 round magazines for it. I'll let you know soon.
Kodiak <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 13:26:45 (EST) 

Sniping Expert? Me? Hah! Sorry to disillusion, but I am not expert on matters sniping! I am opinionated as heck, but I am hardly an expert. But I do tend to couch all arguments presented on the site in terms related to sniping since that is out goal and direction. In that you are right! Expert? I'll leave that moniker to the real deals like Gooch and Rick. They have probably forgotten more than I have yet learned!
Scott <xring>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 16:15:47 (EST) 

It is my opinion that flinching is more a function of pain than noise, although noise IS certainly a factor. Having a bit of experience with hard hitters, I can say that after some number of cartridges (regardless of caliber), your body will let you know when it has had enough. Once this threshold has been reached and passed, a flinch results. Continued firing only worsens the condition. A major problem here is that a significant flinch can be difficult to cure. Again, in my opinion, the best way to avoid problems is to attempt to minimize effects by quality hearing protection, a recoil buffer of some sort, and proper shooting technique instruction. It always helps (especially when shooting from a bench) to use a recoil buffer. A bag of birdshot between shoulder and buttstock works very well on the bench. The difficulty of adjusting to the much longer resultant length of pull is exceeded by the reduction in felt recoil. This is especially true when one is testing ammo. Remember that your shoulder and body's "memory" of recoil events is regardless of practice or actual duty. It is always in your interest to minimize the effects of recoil.

For field use in practice or duty conditions, a polymer recoil pad is desirable. The pads available today are firm enough to allow repeatable rifle positioning yet still spread out recoil pulses to tolerable levels. Not only are they reasonable in price, they work. As one who bruises quite easily, I can assure you they are worth their cost. Having used them with various heavy recoil cartridges, I can say that they will not make it fun, but can help relieve some of the trauma. By sewing a pouch in the shoulder area of your coat and/or shirts, the pad is easily transferable.

Only idiots claim they are not affected by recoil; it can and does effect how well we can make a rifle do its job. By learning the characteristics of the rifle/cartridge combination we can adjust to and minimize the effects of recoil by proper equipment preparation and sound technique. Anyone who aspires to regular use of magnum cartridges must understand this.

With apologies for the length of this post and a nod to Herr Torsten, "Ende". (at least for now)

"Iron" Fred Fischer <frederick_c_fischer@mail.northgrum.com>
People's Republic of, MD USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 18:01:29 (EST) 

RE: Sniper standards

OK, shooters, now that I managed to get the scope thing stirred up, lets throw another target up that the scope conversations bring to mind. If not all "professional" LE snipers are provided with department-issued duty weapons, I shudder to think about what kind of training they receive (or DON'T receive)! As the federal government is so fond of regulating and controlling so many aspects of citizen firearm use, one would imagine that they would show the same concern for uniformed rifle-wielders. Are there no minimum standards of training or proficiency that are consistent throughout the trade? Or are many departmental snipers left to their own devices regarding their training as it seems many are regarding their equipment? Pretty scary thought.
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 20:05:54 (EST) 

Flinching and such: When I pick up a flinch on the range after shooting for a while, I find that some dry-firing will set me right again. Doesn't work for everyone though.

Scott II: I just picked up a copy of "Police Sniper Administrative Policy & Training" which covers such things to some extent. But what each department can and does vary a LOT, after all they aren't all "owned" by Uncle Sam and what is good for LAPD SWAT may not be good for the rural New Mexico PD that only has two men. Ever notice how each PD has its own badges, uniforms, hats, and picks its pistols and cars, and so on? And what would you do, say "Sorry Officer Smith, please put that Mini-14 down and let that evil hostage-taker go, you're not a qualified sniper per US DoJ standards."? I think your concern is valid, but applying it to reality is something else again.

As an aside, along with "Police Sniper Administrative Policy & Training" I also recently got the "Black Magic" and "The Competitive AR-15" books (fun to read where these two disagree) and the new "Modern Highpower Competition" book from PS, which is a whopper at over 600 large pages. So I have lots of reading to do over my upcoming vacation, when I'm not shooting and reloading that is. :) I'll try to post some short(!) reviews when I'm done reading them.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 21:15:26 (EST) 

thanks
josh
Joshua Belokur <Jbelokur@mvnc.edu>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 21:33:03 (EST) 

thanks
Joshua Belokur <Jbelokur@mvnc.edu>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 21:51:00 (EST) 

anyone ever used this, or the Wind Wizard?

just curious
Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
redmond, wa USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 22:29:56 (EST) 

I'm interested in the average price and spec.s of these rifles. After going thru a lot of web sites including Remington's home page, I can't get a price qoute or location in Michigan where I can go ask.
If anybody could E-mail me some info. I'd appreciate it, Thanks, ED
at sta4capt@aol.com
ed <sta4capt@aol.com>
Mi. USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 22:48:48 (EST) 

The lab is in Colorado, that makes the reallynice custom earplugs.

Here in Seattle, its about 65$ for a pair, these are true 30db reduction, I use them for shooting, racing my cars, or motorcycles, etc.

Avoid "foamies", they wear out, if arent inserted correctly, dont
provide the level of protection.

If you feel really rich, get a set of the electric earplugs
with amplification, although I have zero experience with them...

Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
redmond, wa USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 22:50:27 (EST) 

Joshua: The first thing you could do it a trigger job. These run about $30 to $45. Don’t go below three pounds. The second thing to do to a stock rifle is to re-crown it with a decent target crown. The rifle may or may not need this but the trigger can always use work. Crown job is cheap so it is worth it. I saw a new rifle with a good size ding in the crown. Always check it. Eventually you might look into having the action bedded. If your Model 78 Sportsman was like mine, the factory stock worked pretty well. When I put the action in an aftermarket stock I noticed NO difference in accuracy. But that may be rare. Yours could be all ate up. But the very first thing I would do if I were you would be to dump that scope. Back in the good old days I went through a whole series of department store scopes for my deer rifle before I settled on one that worked well (Bushnell Trophy, 3-9x40mm). Sad to say, but in optics you get EXACTLY what you pay for and anything much less than $100 ain’t worth the material it is made of. This alone could account for the average groups you are seeing. Cheap $60 scopes do not track well or hold zero for very long. A case could be made that if you want a good set up, you should try to save and spend as much on the glass as you did for the rifle. Not everyone can do that so split the difference. Spend Half as much on the scope as you did the rifle. That will at least get you out of the junk promotional glass range and into some mid-line hunting optics. That Trophy I mentioned has a lot to offer for the hunter. Very clear, holds its zero for its intended purpose and retails for about $110. I would consider it the bottom of the usable scope choices. The thing to remember at all times when buying something: If it is mediocre now, it will remain so forever. In a year, you will only end up replacing it for something better. You may as well do it right from the start and save the wasted money! It may take longer to put together the rifle you want but instant gratification usually results in bad choices and lost cash. Sorry, I know this wasn’t the direction of your question, but the scope really could be your culprit. I had a junk 32mm Bushnell that changed zero between each shot!!!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 08, 1998 at 23:46:47 (EST) 

Badger rings and bases are carried by Brownell's and listed in Precision Shooting and Tactical Shooting.

Don't remember who asked, but Accuracy Speaks makes a AR-10 match handguard and Medesha Firearms builds AR10, SR25 and AR15 space guns so they should have handguards.

TorF,
If you want the WW2 German sniper training tapes, they are still available.

About issue equiptment, in all the programs I've been to, there is always a mix. From the very best to the cheapest. Police officers still show up with wood stocked hunting rifles and scopes. Military people show up with issue gear. (sometimes) The agencys that are in my area have everything from Remington PSS, to a Ruger heavy barrel in a wood stock (cracked) with a Leupold 3-9 VarXII. My pardner bought his own Rem. Pss with a Leupold tac. 3-9 with mildot.

About top of the line, it's about toughness. The normal scope and rifle won't make it through the first week of the National Guard sniper course, much less chance of the Marine school or SOTIC. The Marine M40A1's that I have had my hands on the last couple of months look like hell, but they still shoot. They don't group as tight as my 700 PSS or my TBA, but they will still hit a man size target at 1000.
Ask Gooch or Rick.

Damn, won't write again for a month.

Pat2
Pat2 <nrdwr.plakin@state,ut.us>
darn cold, Utah USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 01:09:53 (EST) 

Semper Fi, Gunner Gooch!
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 01:37:00 (EST) 

Joshua,
The Model 78 is a pretty fair rifle for the price and can be made to shoot quite well. Like Scott said get better optic's you cant hit what you cant see. Then go with the lighter trigger and if that doesn't improve it you might try bedding it. Good luck let us know how you come out.

Scott(too)
Boy you like to stir things up don't you!! I have been involved with a lot of training in the Law enforcement field and like Dave said
all department's are different depending on size but esp. administration's. Alot of Officer's are ham strung by narrow minded pencil pusher's so it's not allways their fault and no matter how immoral you or I think that is it wont change. (Now lighten up and enjoy life a little!!!)Ha
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 11:36:05 (EST) 

Shot it today for the first time, Phrobis 10 X in MK IV Rings and one piece base.
The crown on the factory barrel SUCKS ! There was enough diffrence from 3 - 9 o´clock to see with the naked eye and it looked like someone cut it with a deburring tool. It was blued so it was done at the factory.

Straitend that one out with a "Triebel" guided Muzzle cutter and she now blows a nice even star out around the muzzle.

Shot some factory 168 gn Samson and followed the break in Master Rick and Gunner Gooch recommended.

Last three shot groups of 40 rounds went into about .5" with no flyers. Im impressed, and my buddy is a very happy puppy with his first rifle.
I figured I payed enough to learn what I know and why should he do the same. Thats what friends are for, and he is Man enough to listen too!

Scope turrets !

I like the one rev turret on my LR Leupold, and now made a shim to fit under the turret of the Phrobis and my Mk IV 20 X. Once zeroed I measured the remaining space between the Turret bottom and the scope and made a matching shim to fill the gap. A tiny drop of Shoe Goo holds it somewhat in place, and I can now Bottom out my turret on top of the shim and am set a 100 Meters. What do you Think ?

"Ende" back to you Fred
Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 14:03:27 (EST) 

Here is some info from Andy Webber of Armament Technolgy reagrding some questions which have surfaced in the past. Sorry for the length Marius and Scott.

Andy say:

1) Dry firing: On centerfire bolt action rifles, little damage results from regular dry firing; especially with cock-on-opening rifles such as most modern types. What does cause damage (to Remington 700's anyway) is slamming the bolt closed on an empty chamber on a regular basis. By doing this, the primary extraction camming surfaces slam into one another before they are rotated to produce sliding angular (camming) contact. This raises a burr on
both the receiver and bolt handle camming surfaces. My advice is to close the bolt gently on an empty chamber, and just raise and lower the bolt handle to cock the action each time you wish to dry fire. The benefits gained by the marksman by dry firing, with respect to trigger control and familiarity of the human interface with the rifle, are many. From my discussions with *very* accomplished Service Rifle marksmmen, I have developed the opinion that for positional shooting (ie: service rifle standing, kneeling, sitting) dry firing at an appropriately-sized target can be more valuable practice than live shooting.

2) M14 mag conversions: I have had detailed experience with M14 mag
conversions to Remington 700 rifle systems, and have evaluated a number of systems produced by several well-known shops. Here are my opinions:
Although this type of system can be made to work fairly reliably, the road to that end is long and complicated. In order for an M14 mag to feed rounds into a Remington 700, the following conditions must be somehow met:
-a hook or peg must be "installed" in the front of the receiver cutout to allow the mag to lever up on.
-a latch must be installed at the rear of the receiver cutout to keep the rear of the mag held securely up into the mag well. There are several ways of doing this: Some of them force a modified action screw placement, while others utilize modified floormetal.
-a sloping relief cut must be made in front of the mag well to allow the mag to be rotated in and out of its latching system.
-because the M14 mag is a true double-stack system, both the mag well in the stock as well as the bottom of the receiver must we widened to accomodate the mag.
-in order to ensure positive vertical and "angular" location of the mag with respect to the receiver each time, a "shelf" or stop must be fixed into the front of the receiver cutout for the front of the mag box to rest against.
-the lips of the M14 mag must be shortened to allow the bolt nose to dig deep enough to strip a round, while at the same time not interfere with the bottom of the bolt locking lugs.
-the rear latch must be made long enough to give good leverage, while short enough to prevent catching in sandbags, rests, etc.

The thrust of doing this conversion was that M14 mags were made for .308, cheap, and readily available. In reality, what is being done is to essentially redesign a rifle's receiver, feeding system, and stock, to fit a mag that had to be modified as well!

A much more sensible approach is to design a mag body that is more
"friendly" to the design of the remington 700 action. Remington attempted this with only partial success. Although the mag system was acceptable, there are several failings:

1) A true double feed system, it is prone to damage and wear. The bolt nose does not take very much bite of the cartridge head. Any misalignment of the cartridge in the mag can cause a misfeed.
2) The latching system, borrowed from Steyr, is sticky and cumbersome.
3) Because the latching system is in the bottom of the mag, the mag cannot be altered to take any more than the designed-number of rounds (4 for .308 Win)
4) Relief cuts are made to the rails in the bottom of the receiver,
precluding conversion back to BDL internal box feeding, should one desire to do so.

H-S Precision has taken the most refined approach yet:

-they have developed a new cast stainless steel triggerguard/floormetal assembly that accepts mags of their own design. The advantages are:

1) The triggerguard/floormetal acts as close-fitting mag housing, resulting in the need for only single-point latching. Straight in and straight out, like the M16. The days of rotated mags like M14's and FAL's are hopefully gone. (I have owned over a dozen assorted M14's and FN's, and used them in service rifle competition in Canada. I don't miss them a bit).
2) The mag latch is located in the trigger bow, and can be operated with one thunb or finger. The mag falls out with gravity.
3) Because the mag latch is in the rear, the option of having a larger
capacity box is available. At the writing of this, 4-rnd boxes are starting production, and 10-rnd boxes are "in the works".
4) The mag design uses a double-stack-to-single-feed design, like most
hi-capacity 9mm pistols. This allows the mag to have an acceptable capacity while allowing the bolt nose to get a really good bite on the cartridge head. This design lets the mag lips force the cartridge to go where it is supposed-to each time.
5) No alteration of the receiver is necessary. The single feed system is relatively narrow, and doesn't interfere with the receiver rails.

The disadvantages of the H-S precision system are:

1) At the writing of this, December 1998, current production is backlogged. My company has had substantial orders on the books for months, and have only received one prototype unit ever. H-S Precision, understandably, is taking care of their own rifle production needs first. I suspect these problems will be sorted out sometime in 1999.

2) The stainless steel mag system is somewhat heavy, and could benefit from lightening cuts.

3) Because of the single-feed design, loading of the magazine with
cartridges is a little slower than double-feed systems. Each cartridge must be pushed down and backward into the mag.

In conclusion, I feel advancements to detachable magazine systems have come a long way recently. Marksmen considering this type of accessory should look at new systems becoming available, instead of turning to the stop-gap solutions of the past.

Thanks Andy

Gooch out.
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 15:20:34 (EST) 

Thanks!
Timothy Crabb <tbcrabb@mindspring.com>
Columbus, GA USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 16:12:39 (EST) 

On the moa accuracy that some gunsmiths claim. Be careful. Anyone can shooot a gun until they get a good group and send it to you as a test target and then claim that if you don't get the same that it must be your ability not the gun. When you select a custom gunmaker check out the man as well as the product. In my opinion you can't beat Armament Technology. Yes, Andy is my friend and shooting partner so I am biased. But as a civvy in the "buisness" I would only recommend someone if I wanted to attach my reputation to them. I have attached my rep to Armament Technology.

Gooch out
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 17:45:44 (EST) 

Hey Ivan. I had a bullet with your name on it.

Love,
Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 18:48:49 (EST) 

COLD-BORE Zero: I have a customized AR-15 that is set up for urban Counter-Sniper work. The gun prints beautiful (1/2 MOA)groups after a couple of fouling shots, but the cold-bore zero is about 1 MOA RIGHT of the rest of the group. This is very consistent. On "picture targets", the first round will be on the center of the left eye (perps left, shooter's right) and the next 4 will be perfectly clustered in between the eyes. This is driving me nuts. I was expecting a vertical error, but a horizontal one?

Also, isn't the 260 Rem. the same as the wildcat 6.5-08?

Thanks.

Bruce Braxton
College Park (GA) P.D.
Bruce Braxton <Braxton1@aol.com>
College Park, GA USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 20:06:13 (EST) 

Tim, contact Andrew Weber at Armament Technology, several folks
here use their weapons.

You'll wait like FOREVER, but its worth the wait...

(me still waiting *sigh*)
Capt Jeff <jeffpa@microsoft.com>
Redmond, WA USA - Wednesday, December 09, 1998 at 20:39:10 (EST) 

thanks
Joshua Belokur <Jbelokur@mvnc.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 01:06:55 (EST) 

Jeremy O'Neal <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 01:52:36 (EST) 

I've been away for another reason, my computer went out and I had to get another one! I've lost all of my old mail and addresses so if we have been in contact by email please re-send anything that you have sent recently so that I can catch up.

Thanks and check six,

Gramps
Gramps <draider6@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 03:37:59 (EST) 

I've used S&B sniperscopes for years. They are exellent.

The Norwegian Army use S&B 6X42 with Simrad NVD as standard equipment. I use the same S&B 6X42 Sniperscope on my huntingrifle. I've also experience with S&B 10X42 and a couple of special S&B's for the G3, a 4X20 and a 1,5-6X42.

All scopes have one-turn elevationturrets from 1-600m or 1-800m with 50m clicks above 300m. All cams are for 7,62 147gr ammo. We don't use special sniperammo. Regular Raufoss 147gr ammo, even linked, will shoot 1moa or less in a regular G3 in good condition. (No conversion to 5.56NATO until at least 2015.)

If S&B make mildot reticles for the new variable scopes the reticle can be used for ranging at all powersettings. S&B puts the reticle in the forward focalplane. This also eliminates POI-change across the powerrange.

Warranty from S&B is similar to Leupold. I sent them a battered 6X42 (in a Leupold box...) that fogged up. I think they stripped it completely and put the original tube through the regular productionline. Everything was new, lenses, turrets, etc. Turnaroundtime was 8 weeks.

To Jeff Cooper, re.scopemountingproblem on a M70LA.

Get a regular EAW QD-mount with the highest rear ring. The front ring pivotes for hight. No need for any shimming, etc. The QD-thing works great.
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 08:11:17 (EST) 

I have my Phrobis / Tasco SS all set up now, but the Leupold MkIV is still giving me some trouble. I will have a lokal laser engraver make the markings on both shims/washers and will make some extra ones with enough beef to turn them down on a lathe for a perfect match.

Pat : Nope dont have it as of now, my folks are sitting on it until Christmas.

Gramps: 780 Gn incomming ! Are you reloading these ?

Gooch and Ríck:

have you ever had a Rem 700 blow up ? How do they hold together when the barrel is stuffed ?

"Ende"
 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 13:38:13 (EST) 

Jeff, if Torf's idea doesn't work, dump that 56mm scope for a 40 or 42mm. That will solve one problem. 56mm have some real disadvantages and clearence ain't the only one. Try to find a scope with 120 total MOa usable. Or try to find a tapered Shim. Maybe andy Webber can make one for you? Chances are his shim could be modified to fit.

Bruce (College Park) I am going to take a stab in the dark here. This is probably wrong, but worth looking into. Is your barrel free floated? If not, what you could be seeing is the relaxation of your hold after the first shot. If you are applying a lot of pressure on the barrel via sling, or bi-pod, it could theoretically change this much in point of impact. But I got to say I am reaching for straws here! Under this idea, you'd probably not group as well as you are. There is some talk that the first round chambered into a semi-auto will shoot out of the group as it is not fed into the chamber with the same speed and action as the following shots fed under the power of the operating system. Supposedly this can change POI. I have not seen this much in my AR though.

LeMay, I never played with a Sako. Sorry dude!
Scott <Xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 15:57:22 (EST) 

Gooch, donate my scope monies to the Gooch fund? how will I learn from the great masters of sniping if I am forced to shoot with a toilet paper roll duct taped to the barrel of my rifle...I already owe you many beers but you are not getting my scope monies. I didn't think $1200 was that bad, the Zeiss was $1600. thanks for the imput

LeMay, if the sako you found is a TRG-31/41 it's a great rifle, if it's a TRG-S it has a pressed in barrel and a single position feed mag that must be loaded outside of the rifle. BTW- if it is a TRG-S, 1700 is a little high but about half what a 41 goes for.
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 16:01:38 (EST) 

But if the thing will hold .5 all day in crappy weather, rejoice. That alone is a good benchmark.

Gooch, funny you mention Ivan. I just went through my old bullet collection and I swear I just found a corroded old 7.62x54R with the letters G.O.O.C.H. crudly scribed into it!
scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 16:02:26 (EST) 

Thanks for the info's on moly coated ammo. Got one case of each in 168 gr: Blackhill, Hornady TAP, and Norma. The TIKKA likes them all. I likes TAP for the lower price and easier to get. There was not much different between groups. They all are very precise.

SAKO: SAKO actions are available in Jerry Sports catalogue. Not sure if .338 LM is there. A friend in Phoenix-AZ told me Precision Arm or Shooter, located in San Diego and related to Mr. Ferguson's site, had a couple SAKO's at Dec. 05 show. They had a 21/.308 at the show for 2.3K and advertise 41 for 2.5 K, TRG-S for 670. BTW a box of 20 for .338 is around $60 but they did not have it. There is an individual in PA names BJ also carry SAKO TRG. I lost his phone but will report as found. Also learned from Finland that TRG's are issued with both Leopold Ultra and Zeiss optics.

SIG 226 crack frame: I had very good experience with SAI-USA. Sent them a 226TS for short trigger conversion. A week later, a very heavy German accent gent from SAI called and told me that they found (by X-ray)a hair line crack on the frame about where the slide lock . He offer to replace the whole gun with another one. Although I always used Remmington, he advise not to used hot load or +P+ ammo. I got a brand new replacement and brought another 220.

Best regards.
NhaTrang62 <NhaTrang62@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 16:57:17 (EST) 

Gramps - Welcome back to the DR, you've been missed. I haven't had anyone to trigger on me when I say the M21 is for old folks and those that can't change their ways. You now how the M21 won't hold zero in the field and is too fragile anyway! Head for the hills Gooch, I think he's going to blow!!!

Steve - It worked my man! I don't like the bipod because it looks too weak and shaky for a good steady hold. Of course I've been called contrary before too. If the bipod tigthens up for cant and lateral it may work. If it rides loose in the fittings, then it will be a problem.

Bruce Braxton - My guess is that the bolt is not locking up the same with a manual locked and loaded round and once the weapon fires it locks up enough differently that the zero shifts. Another question would be how long is the weapon stored between shoots. A semi stored for any length of time will take a spring set that changes with the first round fired. Try operating the bolt vigorously several times before shooting and see if that reduces the amount of the difference in the shots. Those were the primary causes of the shift in that old M21 that I bombed on Gramps about. Where the round goes will depend on a number of factors and the twist that the AR has in its bolt head inside of the bolt carrier may have something to do with it. That was a wild assed guess by the way!

Well enough SWAGs for now, have fun guys and stay safe!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 17:16:55 (EST) 

X-ring, Ivan is just lucky he never had the chance to use that round. With all that inscribing in it I'm sure the fired brass would've stuck in the chamber and then after the round impacted into my cleverly constructed fake loophole my M852 would've parted his hair. (Who used M118?)

Torsten - Never blew up a Remington. Had a Beretta slide blow up on the range once, and a .45 barrel let go, but never a Remington.

Jeremy from SD. Hang around on here. You'll be a popular guy. H&S Precision huh? I'm a fan.

Rob Hollingshead - Tried your email, it didn't work. Good to see another former Marine on here. Check out www.stormmountain.com for sniper training. Where did you go to bootcamp at? I was a range Officer at PI from 92-94.

LASER RANGEFINDERS - Anyone ever play with the Tasco's?

Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 17:40:31 (EST) 

Gooch: Above mentioned friend had used the Tasco rangefinder in the field,and said he had wonderful results when they were ranging bucks,hogs,and general stationary objects.Some places in town(here) have the 600's,but at Wal-Mart online you can get the 800 for the same price w/ free shipping.
Richard Stark <rchel2577@aol.com>
Clovis, CA USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 19:40:56 (EST) 

RE: LE officers in the woods

OK, in the spirit of the season, no more bustin' on scopes, sniper qualifications, or anything else. I would just pay tribute to a segment of LE that I have spent the most time with, that being State Wildlife Protection Officers. Talk about getting out in the brush! Imagine lying in 6" of snow in February at 15 degrees at 2:00 A.M. waiting for the local beaver thief to come and chop holes in a beaver lodge to kill the inhabitants illegally. Now there's some fun! Why do I mention the PA Game Commission on the SC roster? Take a look at the interview tape John Plaster did with Carlos Hathcock, and notice the black hat and its inscription on the table behind Gunny Hathcock. Methinks selected PA WCO's have a little extra up their sleeve in the event of Special Occasions! Ho,Ho,Ho!
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 20:40:32 (EST) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 21:07:55 (EST) 

Gooch have you tried that sling yet. I'm about to make a new batch. Plus what is this I hear of you having a book. Let me know about that book.

Here whatch me drop a frag. Molly or no Molly? 223 versus 308?
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, December 10, 1998 at 23:36:26 (EST)

Berger Bullets: Anyone out there have any experience with Berge VLD moly bullets for the the 308 168 grainers. Are they as good and accurate as the 168 and 175 grainers from Sierra, and are they worth the extra $4.00 a box one would pay for them. I know Berger bullets have an exceptional reputation in the benchrest circles. Just wanted to get some people;s opinions on these bullets.

Lasercon: Thanks for the HO HO HO Christmas cards. Still laughing my ass off over that one.

Going beddy-bye now!

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
RAVAGD, WEARY, AND EXPLOITED in the Grand Republic of , Ohio USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 00:32:33 (EST) 

Next subject : Cost of Rem 700 VSSF, can buy one for about $650 NIB...good price?? I know Gooch and Rick like mildots but is $450 for a Leupold 4.5x14-40 a good deal?? also NIB, never on a piece. I think so but just wondering about prices and comparing around country.

Tactical Rifle Match at English range this Sunday, 13th DEC....also a side match...2 INCH orange center on 12x12 black target. 10 shots in 10 minutes....sounds like fun.
OUT HERE

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Somewhere west of Ft.Benning !!, USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 01:19:24 (EST) 

NO, you must have interpreted that question wrong. I did NOT blow up a Rem 700. I just had an argument with our range warden over how strong it is. I personally have only blown up one Mauser Action ! That was a tough one too. We tried filling it with everything and the sucker would not blow. I finally WELDED the barrel shut right in front of the chamber and then she let go. DONT TRY THIS AT HOME CHILDREN, DADDY WILL BE PISSED IF YOU BLOW OUT THE LIVINGROOM WINDOW ! We had the rifle tied to a tree and fired artillery style from behind cover. BTW it was a WWII 1940 Mauser Action.

I will tell you one Ouups though so that it may help others.
A long time ago a friend and I were sniping at Coots on the Banana River. Right out of my bedroom. We had the sliding glass door opend only about a foot and fired from inside the deph of the room. Said friend was spotting with binos from my homework desk and I was in the prone behind a .22 Win. lever action with a Bushnell 4X with a .22 BDC.
We chalked up a few, and I was getting ready for the next one, squeezed the trigger and BAABOOOM ! ............ I drilled the Aluminum Frame of the sliding glass door! Big Mistake! We aborted the mission and started the file, putty and sandpaper dance. I got everything fixed and just put the praypaint back in the box as my Sister came Home from the PX. Whew close one. I guess after 18 years she will forgive me.

So, always check were your muzzle is even if you have a clear view on target through your scope !

Anyone else out there brave enough to tell another Ouups!

Al O.: HOHOHO !

"ENDE"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 04:08:56 (EST) 

You can find the BC of the 165gr nosler ballistic tip at noslers homepage. It's located at: http://www.nosler.com/ Nosler claims that the BC for a 165gr ballistic tip in 30/.308 (Spitzer green tip) is 0.475.

There is a number of ballistic calculators on the net that You can use. Some are online calculators and others are for downloading. Most of them are listed on my page on External Ballistics: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~johnson/ballistics/

Try the online calculator at: http://www.lascruces.com:80/~jbm/ given the data You supplied: (3220 fps, 2 inches above barrel and zero at
200 yd) it calculates the table You are looking for.

Bevare that (almost) all calculations based on BC's are based on the G1 drag-table. This drag-table is based on a very different bullet shape than what we are using today. Therefore the results are inaccurate at long ranges.

Good Luck with the calculations.
 
 

John R. Jensen <johnson@cs.auc.dk>
Aalborg, Denmark - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 08:36:05 (EST) 

Now for something completely different. Yes this is a sniper site, but the collected knowledge here is pretty good sized.

Does anyone have any ideas about accurizing a Ruger No.1? I have a thing about single shots, but the cost of a Dakota is a bit much (I put the money saved away for my SWS). Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Please contact me through E-mail.

CURRAHEE!!
Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP Greaves, ROK - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 08:38:22 (EST) 

May Santa bring you all Savages for Christmas, a lump of coal is just too good for ya! :-)

Pat, Hows the new .260 shootin?

Jeffe A, You on sabbatical or somthing?

Gramps, Any new accessories for the walker?
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
CCCOLD-cITY, bY-GAwd USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 09:57:29 (EST) 

Rick: M-21 too old, won't hold??????? I've got something you can hold and remember the Burger King ads, it takes two hand to handle a Whopper!! As for Sir Gooch, he doesn't have to run, I love Gooch! (This is the newer, kinder Gramps)! Hehehehe

Torsten: You Germans sure are slow, still waiting on that incoming! It must be stuck in the jello!?!?!?!?! Does the T shirt still fit? Is the Frau still happy with the hot tub jell-o action?

Out here,
 

Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 10:18:22 (EST) 

#1: I was notified yesterday that the Frau had won the lottery from CMP for one of the new M1Ds! So told me that if I paid the $1,200.00 she would let me clean it after she shot it! Ain't she sweet??
HELP ME TORSTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

#2: A lie is not a lie if you don't pay attention or if you don't believe it's a lie at the time you told it if you told it in a certain area or if you're an elected government official, and oral sex is not sex! Wow, was I a dumbass for years!

Long Winded Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 10:28:22 (EST) 

On the TASCO LASER RANGE FINDER, SPARTAN SUPPLY CO. ( 1-800-251-3964 )
LRF600 (249.36) and LRF800 (334.47)
JAMES BARKO <M4CUPP70@aol.com>
CALUMET, IL. USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 11:08:22 (EST) 

Anyway, the heavy barreled competition ARs are much less effected by sling tension but they still change POI. I think mine would pull about 1.5 MOA @ 300 Yards if I cinched in real tight. To avoid this I usually left the sling only tight enough to absorb what muzzle rise there was during rapid fire. For competition, free floating is the answer but not a must depending on your goals. A new shooter need not concern himself with it as long as his zeros are recorder with the sling on. Once they start getting good and shooting in the mid to high 700s they may want to float the barrel to stay competitive.
 

Polaris: Glad to have you aboard. What department are you with?

Scott <xring@voicent.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 11:36:26 (EST) 

$650 seems a good price for the VSSF and $450 seems fair for the scope. You might do better with serious research and a friend with an FFL, but with a lack of those you are pretty much stuck with the market price. Jerry’s Sport Center and Hoplite usually has good prices if you can get an FFL to cut you some slack on the mark-up. For Scopes, check out Spartan Supply where you can buy direct.

Torsten: dude! I like your style! Welding the barrel closed. What some guy’s will do for Science!
On shooting the window sill. This is a good point and worth mentioning. It happens more than one might think. I saw a video as SMTC that illustrated how in the heat of the moment attention can lapse and this sort of thing can happen. A cop took two consecutive shots at a perp and both went into the wall in front of the sniper. The sniper had a clear view of the perp but didn’t realize his barrel was just below the line of the wall. Luckily the perp didn’t recognize the shots for what they were as he was so far away. Third shot blew his tupea off along with the top of his cranium when the officer finally realized his mistake. Watch the muzzle guys!

Scott <xrin@voicenet.com>
Niether here, Nor there USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 11:37:23 (EST) 

Mista Gooch,
A friend had a Tasco range finder and he dumped it, said it was "JUNK" and then bought the Bushnell. I've got a friend who is a prediator control officer field testing my Weaver right now I'll let you know how it does, what little I played with it, it's as good as the Bushnell for $200 bucks cheaper (To be added to the Gooch fund)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 12:35:21 (EST) 

Our 338 Lapua Magnum project is on the run again and my McMillan A2-stocked version will be ordered next week. It will look a little bit like Dakota Longbow as the stock and barrel length/thickness are the same. Scope will be Nightforce 5.5-22x56 with mil-dots. I know it is huge, but proper cheek weld with A2-stock is not a problem. Weight will be around 7-7,5 kg without scope, which weights at least 1,1 kg, plus rings.

This rifle will be quite heavy, but I figured that if infantrymen can carry +10 kg machineguns all day long, why shouldn´t I be able to carry this rifle also. I didn´t come up with any minuses, except ammo costs and faster barrel erosion. A suppressor will be acquired later on and it will be mounted to the threads where the muzzle brake usually stands. BTW suppresors can be owned freely without any licensing here, so the additional cost will not be too bad.

Any comments ? Please feel free to comment the concept, rifle, me, what ever :-) Do you feel suppressors are useful, if you could own them freely ? I have not yet decided for or against it, but may buy it anyways.

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 13:12:23 (EST) 

Suppressors have their uses, but they too have a lot of disadvantages that need to be weighed against their advantages.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 16:25:17 (EST) 

Gramps,
Glad to see you "back in the saddle" we missed ya.

Pat,
Have you tried Bergers or Sierras yet in that .260? Maybe you can talk me into getting one after all.
 
 

Depity,
Thanks!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
OFTA-WORK, BY-Gawd USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 16:43:21 (EST) 

Scott: Got the article done on the UARS stock will be forwarding it to you this weekend along the photographs. Please excuse the delay, but Chrsitmas has all taken a toll on us at UPS this year.

So nobody wants to tell me about the Berger VLD bullets? Where are your Christmas spirits? I'm waiting for a good samaritan to pipe up. C'mon - give it up!!!

And where might I ask is Sarge. Obviously someboby has discovered his hide and has taken over Sarge's most precious posssesions, those Ruger's in the closet he didn't want any of us to know about. It time Sarge to come out of the closet. I came out of the closet last week and found an old sweater which was missing and also found out that I still straight and still love women. I just so happy! So is the little missus!

Al: (Uncle Nunzio's nephew) And where the hell are you? Did you do something to displease Uncle Nunzio. Bad move, Al, Real bad move!!

al
 
 
 

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Somewhere north of the South Pole in the chilly hinterlands of , Ohio USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 22:06:39 (EST) 

I'm playing with the 175 Bergers right now using my now standard load of 44.0 Varget. So far the group about the same as Sierra 175's at 100 yds. ctc avg .670" Somebody? Somewhere? told me that I would not really see the difference until past 300 yards. But I'll wait till its warmer before attempting shooting farther than I can wee, uh see.
Have you seen the Hornady 178gr National Matches (stock #80631)? They are truly bad to the bone dude!

Pat,
Do you have anything to add? You Da Man!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 23:23:05 (EST) 

LeMay: Where are my pictures!

Al B.
Uncle Nunzio's Newphew (Al B.) <rempss@aol.com>
N.Y. USA - Friday, December 11, 1998 at 23:55:30 (EST) 

Sarge checks his six and goes to bed!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 00:24:36 (EST) 

Thanks for all the responses on the costs....sure would be nice to have an FFL....in the works...What about some "real-time" feedback on GPS as far as how close the waypoints can be if navigating Flat but covered terrain , such as a southern swamp !!!
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 02:34:23 (EST) 

Re: The AR-15 Counter-Sniper gun that shoots 1.5 MOA Right on "Cold-Bore Shot"....

Slings are not an issue. I don't use one normally. This was first noticed on a bipod front/bagged rear setup.

The barrel is free-floated, also.

About the only solution that I could find was to fire two "fouling" shots and (EGAD!!!) store the gun dirty. I could handle a small variance in elevation based on "cold-bore", but this windage thing is a pain in the arse.

Also, can someone confirm or deny that the .260 Remington is the same as the old 6.5-08 Wildcat round?

Thanks,

Bruce
 

Bruce Braxton <Braxton1@aol.com>
College Park, GA USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 03:43:13 (EST) 

Sarge: 16 to 18 hours days!! I'm impressed that you were even able to answer the few short lines you did, after putting in those kind of hours. We, however, are the losers in this whole deal, because we need your taunting. (Hope Mrs. Sarge is not missing out on anything.)

Gotta go and feed the dog and get ready to arrow that big buck in the back yard.

Later fellas

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Glad to see everyone is alive and well in whimsical, Ohio USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 06:37:45 (EST) 

So, when their spotters have you, and you're trying to find your hide, you'll know how big a circle you have to look in...

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 08:31:32 (EST) 

I´ll zap some pictures around once they are developed.

" En......zzzzzzzzz"
Torsten <Lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 13:34:52 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 14:37:56 (EST) 

1. Throws brass all over the place. I'll find you a blank firing adapter for Storm Mountain so you'll have to deal with the brass flying.
2. Could have a bigger muzzle blast due to a flash suppressor.
3. Has a magazine that will mis-feed someday.
4. M1A has to be cleaned from the muzzle.
5. Has an iffy scope mounting system which could shoot loose eventually.

But other than that they are okay.

An idea. Keep the M1A as is and use it as a training aid to shoot NRA Highpower. You will learn a lot from this experience if you already don't shoot "NRA" style.

The Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 17:51:23 (EST) 

RE: Dressing up a 788 action.

I'v got a Remington 788 action that's still got the original 18 1/2" inch barrel screwed on it. I approached a well-respected 1,000 yard gun builder about having a match grade tube tightened on and finding a GOOD synthetic stock for the thing. The man flatly refused to do the work. His basic message was the action was not of high enough quality to warrant the change. Perhaps I didn't clearly communicate the intention for the dressup; I did not want to use the resulting project as a 1,000 yard match rifle, but rather as a poor man's precision .308. I think he was afraid his reputation would suffer if I showed up somewhere at a match and shot poorly with his work. His final remark was something like, "If you bring me a decent 700 action.."

So, now I'm looking for a second opinion. Is the action worth the investment? Despite the age of the action, it is relatively wearfree. (Under 300 rounds.)
 

Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 19:08:46 (EST) 

Thanks

David H.
David K. Hart <David.Hart@Maxpacsec.onyxnet.co.uk>
Ingleby Barwick, Teesside England - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 19:36:50 (EST) 

Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 20:52:08 (EST) 

RE: 788 action

Thanks for the comeback. The rifle shot like a house afire with the original stock on it, honest 1" groups at 100 yards. BUT, after a couple of trips in the rain, that finish on the birch stock started to crack, and I thought it was the stock ITSELF starting to crack, so I had a piece of nice, plain walnut with a nice, shiny finish applied, and ever since, it doesn't shoot as well as it originally did. I suppose the stock fit was pretty bad, but never really checked it out. Also, I really only developed one load for it in the beginning, and when I found a good one (the first one I tried), that's where I stopped. SO, I guess a careful stock/action mating would be in order, as you suggest, along with some further load development. My main concern for the longer barrel was to compensate for velocity loss beyond, say, 300 yards. What do you think?
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 22:32:22 (EST) 

RE: 788 action

Thanks for the comeback. I was extremely happy with the rifle, and did my best work with it for almost twenty years. Had a big, old slow 180 grain load that I never shot over 75 yards that did the business right HereandNow. Then I got the "shoot 'em way out there" bug, and kind of abandoned my li'l old 788. I guess I read too much Elmer Keith. Nah, can't read too much of that old scudder's stuff, God Bless His Soul. Elmer, as you probably know, was highly enamoured of BIG calibers. Scout Rifle, huh? Sounds like a definite possibility! I wonder if the Jeff Cooper that posts here on SC is THE Col. Jeff Cooper?
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Saturday, December 12, 1998 at 22:50:29 (EST) 

>The man flatly refused to do the work. His basic message was the >action was not of high enough >quality to warrant the change.

Scott,
I remember an article by Fred Sinclair about making a BR type rifle out of a 788. He lapped the lugs for many hours and still didn't get all lugs to bear. He said it made a good varmint rifle though. Those bolts were rough as a corn cob.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Sunday, December 13, 1998 at 00:45:22 (EST) 

>God Bless His Soul. Elmer, as you probably know, was highly enamoured >of BIG calibers.

I still remember an article by him evaluating a Remington 7mm magnum. He said it would make a good pest rifle.

I have most of his books, including the ones from the '30s (reprinted).

BTW, he made a few trips to Camp Perry on a state rifle team. He was more than just a hunter.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Sunday, December 13, 1998 at 00:49:51 (EST) 

On another topic; we had a bad day at the office on Thursday. Two of our jets had a midair collision. One stopped flying, pilot got out of the formation, ejected but did not survive. Other aircraft returned to base. Yours truly headed for his duty station in the base CP. Of interest to the question on GPS; has anyone ever seen a TEN-figure grid reference before? That is what the ground search party reported as the crash site. That would be accuracy to the meter. Obviously they weren't using a cheap commercial unit.

Terry
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, December 13, 1998 at 01:13:03 (EST) 

Welcome and, A very Nice rig sir!

Go to the "Gun-Links" and bring up Vihtavouri You can download their info for .308 Win. (7.62x51mm). The N-540 and N-550 powders will give the best results. Try RWS or Federal primers whichever you can get cheaper across the pond.
Hodgdons Varget powder is very popular with many S/C regulars because of very good consistency and replicable results through most US made rifles. Start at 43.0 grains and slowly work up as per usual CAREFUL handloading techniques.
Feed us what projectiles, cases, reloading dies, and the intended ranges you're planning on using the P-H at for more data?

Guys anybody have experience with the Lapua Fourex loads in .308 (is that a modified Monolythic solid???) Inquiring minds want to know.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
RAIN-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Sunday, December 13, 1998 at 10:59:08 (EST) 

Unless that was a typo that rifle should be left as is!

Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 01:03:23 (EST) 

Bye!

Koichi
Koichi Morita <kmorita@panache.co.jp>
Tokyo, Japan - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 06:16:36 (EST) 

Even if that Savage grouped "poorly" (1.75" at 200 yds) it would still be a genuine keeper! I up the bids $50.00, Hey what is this E-Bay or somethin!

Larry, Don't change ANYTHING with that firestick if it consistently shoots that well,

NOTHING,

GOT IT!

Oh, by the way what are you neck sizing the brass to?
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 11:38:36 (EST) 

PS: don't take all this seriously, I'm just P***ed about a $3500 repair bill this year for my GPS
Jeff Cooper <loflyin@aol.com>
Memphis, USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 12:19:48 (EST) 

Well guys, we had a bad weekend in No. Calif. three officers gone. Two to accidents and one to three scum bags. More funerals I don't want to attend.

All for now. Mike
Mike M <DMMDNLN@AOL.com>
ca USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 13:46:23 (EST) 

Torsten,
The range finder worked great in the morning and as the sun got brighter it cut down on what I could range. Things it worked on in the morning it would not pick up in the afternoon. I figure everthing it ranges puts me that much further ahead than not having one and if you keep realistic expections for what it is, it's a great tool to have and if it doesn't range it your no worse off than than before. Not like the Lica's but then we don't have $2500 to $3000 in them either(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 14:08:52 (EST) 

Thanks.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 14:42:36 (EST) 

Can anyone give me some inputs on the following scopes:

Schmidit & Bender 3-12 X 50mm Police or Military, nice and
tought like the Mark 4s? Worth the extra couple hundred?

Burris Black Diamond, decent scope or stick w/ Vari-X III
M3?

Thanks for any input fellas.

Lou
Lou S <spunkbubble@juno.com>
S. Fla. USA - Monday, December 14, 1998 at 19:43:11 (EST) 

Larry, Larry, Larry - I've been trying to tell these guys forever that a Savage can and WILL shoot groups like yours all day long but, will they believe Sarge - Noooooooooooooo! I also have the 110FP in .308 with a Tasco SS10x42 and a Harris bi-pod. My handloads are the 168 gr. MatchKing, Federal Gold Medal brass, Federal GM210 primers and 41.0 grs of VV140. This set up has almost identical perfomance as yours! At an average of 2650fps it is only 50fps below factory Gold Medal!
These are really great guns if you can't afford the one of the AT's or a Chandler, etc, etc, etc - hell they're a great gun even if you can't afford a (shake, shudder, wheeze) Remington PSS (just kidding, sort of!) Keep up the good work Larry and as the guy's are saying - shoot it at the longer ranges so you KNOW its capabilities.

Sarge ducks and covers, checks his 6 and goes back to the hide.
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 00:14:36 (EST) 

I've recently had some problems in choosing a Remington 700 for my father. My dad was an army sniper back in Vietnam and though he's been out of it for awhile he's really getting back into precision shooting and I know he misses having a rifle of the grade and type he used in Vietnam. hence for Christmas I've been trying to buy him a Remington 700 but I really can't get ahold of the Sendero SF in .300 Win Mag like I wanted. So now I have to decide to wait around longer or go for the Police Sniper version. Does anybody know what the benefits of the Police Sniper version are? In addition I've already located and purchased the scope. A Leupold M3 Tactical Long range 3.5-10 , the one with the BDC and Mil Dot Reticle. So what should I do? Thanks for your time!

Seth Georgion <CaptAhab@collegeclub.com>
San Diego, CA USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 00:16:34 (EST) 

I've seen the Unertl's in several applications - but have never used one - How do they stack up? anyone have any experience with them?

Thanks in advance,

Ken

NoVa Shooter <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 00:31:30 (EST) 

Excellent choice in scopes! Hard to beat Leupold.
Ding <ding@stev.net>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 08:05:57 (EST) 

Bill,
That's exactly what I use the range finder for too Bill. I try to bracket the area and when he cross's that point he die's!! (Well in theory anyway HA)Since I got it I've discovered that I was shooting them a little further than I thought, thank God for flat shooting rifles(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 09:32:10 (EST) 

I am in search of M14 blank firing adapters. Email me if you have a source. If you have one I might like to borrow it to use it as a pattern to make some more.

Seth - Check out the Varmit sythetics (VS) models of the M700 too. You're a good son to do this for your pop.

On the Unertl sniper scope. You're not going to find too many floating around out there for civilian purchase. You might run up on one at a gun show but I don't believe they make them anymore. Besides they were state of the art in 1981 but the newer scopes have eclipsed them long ago. This is coming from former Marine sniper who used and taught the thing from its inception. I wuold love to have one to hold and caress at night while I sip Guinness, watch "Gung Ho" on the tube and think about the old days but not to shoot with in place of a Leupold M3 whick is state of the art now.

On eagle drag bags. We had eagles at the National Guard sniper course and after 5 years of abuse from students the only thing we ever had go bad on them was that the main zipper got out of wack on 8 out of 30 of them. Eagle has a lifetime warrenty so I wouldn't sweat that. Sniper trivia... The Eagle bag was designed by the USMC Scout-Sniper Instructor School staff around 1985-6.

Insider scoop. A company is going to unveil a 1000 yd "compact" laser range finder at the SHOT show. News and film after the show.
I'm in line to get one for evauation.

Hows everything going Mr. Murphy? Junior in the Guard yet?

Well, now my Rottenweiler bitch is in heat and the CP is in total disarray with Sarge chasing her ass around. Good thing we males of our species don't act like this. Or do we? Hmmmm.
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 10:53:45 (EST) 

About the scope. If you want to get your pop out to 1000 yards you will have to order the 15 minute tapered shim kit ($20.00) from Armament Technology (see our link). This slips under the scope mount. With it, you will be able to use the full range of the LR M3 scope. with out this shim, or with out a tapered base, you may run out of elevation adjustment before 1000 yards. With the shim you can get out to 1200!

Good luck, I hope when my boy grows up he will be such a great kid!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 11:27:39 (EST) 

About PSS versus VS versions of Rem700. Pay the additional cost. The stock on the PSS is much stronger and stiffer, plus if you decide to add a handrail it has full length aluminum bedding blocks to mount to. The Parkerized finish of the PSS is also more durable than the Matte Blue of the VS. The PSS is truly a good deal as a sniper rifle.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 12:59:42 (EST) 

Mark Wannemueller <wannemuellermark@hotmail.com>
Evansville, IN USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 13:17:17 (EST) 

" 'Twas the night before Christmas, he lived all alone,
In a one bedroom house made of plaster and stone.

I had come down the chimney with presents to give,
And to see just whom in this home did live.

I looked all about, a strange sight I did see,
No tinsel, no presents, not even a tree.

No stocking by mantle, just boots filled with sand,
On the wall hung pictures of far distant lands.

With medals and badges, awards of all kinds,
A sober thought came through my mind.

For this house was different,
It was dark and dreary,
I found the home of a Marine,
Once I could see clearly.

The grunt lay sleeping, silent, alone,
Curled up on the floor in this one bedroom home.

The face was so gentle, the room wasn't clean,
Not how I pictured a US Marine.

Was this the hero of whom so much I've read?
Curled up on a poncho, the floor for a bed?

I realized the families that I saw this night,
Owed their lives to such Marines, who were first to fight.

Soon round the world, the children would play,
And grownups would celebrate
A bright Christmas day.

They all enjoyed freedom each month of the year,
Because of Marines and soldiers, like the one lying here.

I couldn't help wonder how many lay alone,
On a cold Christmas Eve in a land far from home.

The very thought brought a tear to my eye,
I dropped to my knees and started to cry.

The Marine awakened and I heard a rough voice,
"Santa don't cry, this life is my choice;
I fight for freedom, I don't ask for more,
My life is my god, my country, my corps."

The Marine rolled over and drifted to sleep,
I couldn't control it, I continued to weep.

I kept watch for hours, so silent and still
And we both shivered from the cold night's chill.

I didn't want to leave on that cold, dark, night,
This guardian of honor so willing to fight.

Then the Marine rolled over,
With a voice so rough yet pure,
Whispered, "Carry on Santa,
It's Christmas day, all is secure."

One look at my watch, and I knew he was right,
Merry Christmas my friend, and to all a good night."

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 13:24:32 (EST) 

I zapped some pictures around of our still ongoing SSL98 Reserve Sniper class, if I forgot someone that wants them as well E mail me and prepare for a monster download(HA) It took me only three minutes to send them via ISDN.

"Ende"
 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 13:27:06 (EST) 

I have been checking in here for over a year and this is a really great site. Thanks for all the information. I have just come across a large amount of surplus ammo and would like to get some load info on it. It is in 20 rd boxs that just say 30. cal. and have a lot #, it is head stamped F N at the top and 58 at the bottom. I want to use the ammo to practice trigger control and sight picture; but, I want to make sure it is non-corrisive. Same ? for surplus M-2

thanks,

Daniel
Daniel Hines <hinesd@gators.net>
Lacrosse, Fl USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 13:52:38 (EST)

I keep bugging Leupold about a Laserrangefinder and keep getting the subborn NO there is no Leupold Laser Range Finder !

Hmmmh ?

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 15:38:41 (EST) 

Bach:

your right on a few points about the unertls out there....yup, they are in the thousands of dollars ( i know cuz i sold mine (ser#2060) for quite a bit). all at the gun shows are not stolen, if you look on the left side, it will say either sniper (which are not stolen and only 31 exist as of right now) and the other is USMC ( which is a dead give away for being stolen from the Corp). and i can vouch for gooch fondling my unertl for hours from where he wore the camo paint of it. its funny to watch him get that teary eyed look when ever he held it.

Gooch: when are you going to quit tryin to convince people to give you guns? damn it man, stand up ( to your CG) and buy a rifle!!!

torsten, sorry it takes awhile to get back to ya. hows life around there without the border trace?

kudu out
allen <kudu3@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 15:45:01 (EST) 

Thanks Murph. I'll check it out.

Hey Torsten, cool flicks. Mind if we use'm in training?

Gooch
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 15:51:43 (EST) 

Gooch,
Your welcome, you da man!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 16:52:15 (EST) 

I just got my Bushnell 800 and zapped a couple of targets real quick in the twilight to make sure it works. Man, does it work! I ranged a house at 706 yards, so I imagine I can get honest 800 yard readings, given the right circumstances. The kicker is, I paid $339.95 plus shipping ($11.95 for priority) from Cabela's net page. The catalogue lists them at $399, and the local gun shop sells them for $450!!! I called to double check the price, and the phone girl said that Cabela's runs some internet specials like that sometimes, SO, I figured the 800 is plenty good enough for me at that price. There is another rangefinder on the civilian market that ranges out to 2 k, but the thing costs $1,500! I think I'll be real happy with the 800.
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 20:29:38 (EST) 

About to leave computer.work.com. Am now working as a technical.support.tech. Made a good score on my training.final.exam.

Have really missed the snipercountry.duty.roster. and all its fine.folks.com. Need to shoot a sniper.scoped.rifle.com

Had to reestablish some sort of commo. Even if it is silly.as.hell.com

Jeff A. in need of major reboot. Hey, if you trace routed my I.P. address, you would receive 100% packet loss.

Both of my gonadal Sunn servers are suffering from major load balance error.

I miss my SC pals. Got to get back to Barbara the Nailer and the crushed velvet.inflato.hide.com

Pat: just read your email. Thank you. Hope the wife is doing okay. God bless you both...
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
computer, computer computer - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 20:41:58 (EST) 

out
Jeff Cooper
Memphis, USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 20:47:27 (EST) 

So what did I do? Mildots and the Mildot master baby! Bad to the bone! Da da daa da da!

1/4 degree to mils huh? Hmmm 17.77 mils to a degree and 3.6 minutes to a mil so ...wait there is 60 minutes to a degree right? So that would be 25 minutes right! Is the jarhead ate up or what? Help I hate this part of the job! Math is a terrible thing to do to the mind.
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 20:48:52 (EST) 

In the early to mid 1980s John (jr.) and Elsie would set up at Camp Perry with Champion Shooters Supply. Each year I would ask him when he was going to produce a civilian sniper model. He always declined siting the prices involved. I let him know they would sell regardless of price, but apparently wasn't convincing enough. From what Elsie told me, rifle scopes are only a very small part of their business and that the core of their business was surveying equipment, aircraft simulators, etc. Don't quote me on any of this, as it was long ago and things may have changed.
 

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
"buckeyes are worthless nuts" USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 21:37:48 (EST) 

Gooch I know what you say about MilDots but in LE work it is easier to say in court " I confirmed the range with my Bushnell mdl 400 Range Finder " than to say I estimated the size of the target at 4.2 Mils and I believed the target to be six feet high. The second opens up all kinds of follow-up questions for the sniper to answer. The first places all the liability on Bushnell. A no brainer for me. For LE work my first choice is the laser. I have a Mildot scope in case the laser quits when I needed it and for leads. Just like I prefer a solid rest but train with a sling also.
Mike M. <DMMNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 21:46:32 (EST) 

When lasers are available they should be used unless the enemy has detection devices and then mildots become a back up. In my situation in Wyoming where I was running over 2 miles during a course, I was getting very pissed at that 3,000 dollar paper weight that I had to carry through the course after it stopped working. Like I said previously, the light, terrain and tgt conditions prevented the laser from functioning properly.

In your duties as a police officer there should almost always be something in your target area that is of a known size that you could use to determine range with using mil dots. You should also have large scale street maps at your disposal that you could make range cards with.

Use the laser, but always have a back up.
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 15, 1998 at 22:51:29 (EST) 

sure go ahead and use what you can. If you want some more I can mail a few others. Anything in return ????

Kudu,

no its not like it was when we still had the commies fueled and loaded only a few 100 k away. But then again I would not want to go back to have to shoot at some good friends of mine now that were in the East German Army then.

Some of you guy´s have a very small storage capacity for e mails on your servers. The 7.5 Minute ISDN 115kb/sek. Monster mails were send back to me with a statement from your server. So I chopped them and send again. sorry for any hassle.

Marius,

how is your little baby ?? Do you want some of the pics ? Must be nice and warm down there ?

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 04:51:40 (EST) 

Nice pics!

I want my old G3 back!

Shooting a scoped G3 from sandbags/bench brings back some memories. If you want som fun try this:

-Selector on full auto.

-Left hand on top of the forstock and press the G3 hard down against the sandbag.

-Pull the G3 hard against the shoulder with right hand on pistolgrip.

-Doubletap (two shots). Selector at full auto!

-Practice with tracer.

It won't take long before you're able to put both bullets in a regular target out to 600m. It's fun watching the tracerbullets "racing" eachother to the target. Use the leight 4X scope. The mount won't take the pounding with a heavy scope at full auto. Have fun :-)
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 07:20:15 (EST) 

To make it clear, if you get a modern PSS (post 1990?) you are not getting a custom shop rifle as some would have you believe. You are simply getting a 700VS barreled action with a PSS contoured stock!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 09:34:58 (EST) 

any help on the spraypaint job for old "Berlin Betty" ?

I´m fixin to paint my M 21. I have bought some of the Granite spray paint that leaves a structure effect. Color is light brown.
Did you ever use any stencils? Camo net, leaves, rope ?

I guess its ´like working a Ghillie start out light and darken later ?

My Mauser is green around the receiver now since the stock is camoed already, but this time I´ll go for the works.

I have a new stock sitting here for the M 21 and want to bead blast and phosphate it anyway, so if I screw up, so what.

At least I´ll get some real weird looks from our conservative hunters in loden shooting their Drilling´s

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 11:19:47 (EST) 

that sounds like the stuff I am using now, its a no name brand, but from what you describe it sounds like what I have here.

The can spits like a lama, and the stuff is sort of tan base color with black and some white specks in it. If applied correctly it looks like stone. I have used it for some 1:16 scale Models I made, but this is the first try at a rifle. I´ll zap some pics around once it is done. The only parts I dont cover are : bolt, scope knobs, butplate, flash hider. Other than that I´ll just be creative.
The stoney base paint has to harden out before I apply the next coat, otherwise it softens too much and the roughness melts away.
I´ll top it up with some bronze green and rust brown, but will try to keep it light in color as a dark/black bangstick is what I dont want in the first place.

"Ende"
Torsten <Ya know>
G3ermany - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 13:21:39 (EST) 

http://www.cci-29palms.com/users/earchie/arch_fnl.htm
 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 14:08:01 (EST) 

that sound like a winner.

I have to get some of that when I´m in country in Febuary, were can I get it ??? Do they have a home page ?

"Ende"
Torsten <you know>
G3ermany - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 15:14:20 (EST) 

One thing to also consider: The final finish may look very nice, artistic even, and will blend in very well up close, but if you make the pattern too small or too tight, it will appear as one solid object from a distance. You need to keep the variations big enough to break up the outline. Adding to much fine detail will only casue it all to run together. This is easy to spot at a distance. I think specifically of LeMay's rifle which I picked out at 250 yards. It had a very nice camo job. I couldn't see him in his ghillie at all, but after a bit of searching, I found his rifle because the camo color melded into one color at that range. It stood out.

Treebark camo is a good example of this effect. Up close it really can look like a tree trunk as you are close enough to see the detail. But at a distance it just looks like a dark blob as the whole blends together and loses its effect. Broader and more broken and varied patterns blend better.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 15:35:41 (EST) 

Condo' caught me on thet one! Thar he is! Lurkin' in thet tree on over thar! Fry mah hide! Ready t'pounce! Ole Jeb ah had heard thet th' PSS an' th' VS were both usin' full beddin' blocks an' yo' cornfirmed it. ah knows whut rifle ah's gittin'. Does th' VS come wif a 26" barrel then? Is th' trigger th' same? So'ry about th' math mistake guys. ah had mah shoes on, as enny fool kin plainly see.

Gooch is gitin readey fur West By Gawd Virginny!
dum dum <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 16:51:04 (EST) 

vIRGINNY IS VIRGINNY

AND WE'RE PLAIN OL' BY-GAWD

FYI: BANJO LESSONS AT 07:00 BY THE "CHEAT" BRIDGE
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 17:58:33 (EST) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 18:07:35 (EST) 

Gooch,
Yes ont he 26" barrel on the VS and trigger is the same. Geeeez...Gooch don't be so hard on yourself!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 18:28:33 (EST) 

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 19:10:10 (EST) 

Our Model 700™ VS incorporates the technology of police and military rifle design. Great dimensional stability comes from a composite stock of DuPont Kevlar®, fiberglass, and graphite, with an aircraft-grade aluminum bedding block running the full length of the receiver. Fitted with a 26" free-floating, heavy-weight barrel. All metalwork has a fine, black matte finish. Right-hand versions chambered for .22-250 Remington, .223 Remington, and .308 Win. New for 1998 are 3 left-hand specs in .22-250 Remington. .223 Remington, and .308 Win.

Yoohoo! Here come the Tomahawks! Duck Saddam!
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 19:16:35 (EST) 

RE: New Remingtons

Has anyone handled one of the Remington composite - barreled 700 rifles yet? I saw a picture of one the other day, and that barrel really has a heavy - bench barreled kind of look to it. Man! So many toys, so few dollars!
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 20:59:15 (EST) 

Just a note about stocks. Look how much thicker a McMillian stocks glass is over a H&S Stock, just about double. The fill of the McMillian is also denser than the H&S. This all makes for a more durable and stiffer stock. I like the PSS Stock but prefer the McMillian. I have busted a H&S Stock but all my McMillians are still in one piece including the M40A1 McMillian built for me in 1983.

A fact of life is you get what you pay for. Wholesale on the PSS is about $150.00 more than the VS. If you want to change the stock on the VS and don't mind the MATTE BLUE FINISH instead of the PARKERIZED PSS FINISH go ahead. If you want an inexpensive out of the box sniper rifle go with the PSS. I don't care which finish as they both work fine. The stock is the major difference. God feel the weight difference between the two H&S Stocks and you can tell. Both Bbl'd actions come of the same assembly line.

About PSS's with 5R Bbls I have one and it just about took an act of Congress to get it.

Now lets all pray for our brave brothers about to go into battle.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 22:40:12 (EST) 

PSS with a 5R? God I wish!!! Please tell me this is so! I know the M24 left the shop with this but I did not hear of the current PSS model gettign this profile.

Gooch, you slipping back into your natural self? Man, you had me looking for a three toothed sister to call wife!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 22:41:49 (EST) 

Reusing a patch is just being cheap. Why risk damaging a quality barrel by trying to save a percentage of a penny by using a cruddy patch. Push the crud out and do not draw it back in.

Like most guys, the typical break in goes, fire a round and clean for 10 rounds, fire three rounds and clean for 20 rounds and fire five round and clean for up to 100 rounds. It is tedious and annoying but the results pay off. JB bore paste is a godsend during break-in. It gets the build up out between shots so that the new projectile can burnish the bore. Do not go crazy with it though! Same with Sweets.
scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 22:51:19 (EST) 

Hey guys, please enlighten an old ex-Navy guy. What the heck is a Remington 5R barrel? Any relationship to the old Springfield 1903 star gauged barrels?
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 22:53:07 (EST) 

I've emailed Remington for clarification on some of this stuff. Wait out.
 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 23:12:10 (EST) 

Tom B.
Tom B. <thomasburrows@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, December 16, 1998 at 23:49:19 (EST) 

Gooch, where is Baghdad Betty anyhow?

Matt: I didn't "beat you up" about the Marshall/Sanow thing, at least I don't think I did, my point at the time was always that "they" were in one camp that claimed to have the answers, and that there were some good opposing viewpoints out there. Personally, I'm not in their particular camp, but I think it's important to hear all the evidence (including theirs) before drawing conclusions. Glad to hear you've seen the light though! ;^)

Scout rifles: Wow, such hostility! The scout rifle is a great concept for a certain role, certainly NOT as a sniper weapon. It certainly has all kinds of limitations (!), but it does make a nifty rifle for most hunting. But "That redicilous scope, a bipod that doesn't ajust, and a barrel to short for a gun with a scope and a bipod? Get an AR-10 instead."???? Wow, JC, talk about missing the point! Thou shallt remember Duty Roster Commandment Number One, "What is it for?"

Gooch: Amen about batteries! But speaking of those pesky things, is there any word on a price range for the new compact thousand-yard mystery rangefinder? That $199 Weaver 850 is looking awfully tempting...

God bless our troops!

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 00:04:07 (EST) 

Doc,
Good question.
Negative on any relationship to the star gauged Springfield barrels.

To the best of my limited knowledge, the 5R describes the type of rifling. In non-5R rifling the lands join the grooves with a relatively sharp angle. The 5R type has a small radius at the root of the lands. Supposed to have less gas leakage, less stress on the jacket material, etc. Don't know if this radius in is on the driving, or non-driving side of the lands, or both. Obermeyer, a top flight barrel maker uses it, and I think Rock. Don't know anything about Rock's barrels, and never heard of them being used in competition.

Don't know how many grooves either. BTW, some three groove barrels are doing fine in long range competition.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above statements.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 00:05:10 (EST) 

The reason the Rem VS finish looks textured is because it is not turned to a fine finish. It is blasted and matte blued. I don't see a problem with the matte blue. My complaint is the stock. I realy like the rail set up and the VS Stock is not easy to set up for it. I use a system that involves a Bipod and a special sling. I set up all my rifles that way. Buy what you like but don't think they are the same.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 01:17:44 (EST) 

Ron,

The Savage is a good rifle, especially for the money. The only downside to it (in .223) is that you need to watch the rifling twist rate. On the older ones, they are 1:12, which is too slow for the 69 grain match bullets. The newer 110s (and all of the 10FPs) are now 9" twist.

Another small "tweaking" note: Torque the receiver screws down uniformly and use some Loc-Tite on the screws. I was in a course a couple of weeks ago with two fellas using 110s. On both of them, the screws backed out and caused a rapid changes in zero. It was finally isolated in Day 3....

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park, GA USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 02:46:39 (EST) 

Gotta go now.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
The State of , Joy and Exhultation USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 04:31:36 (EST) 

Sincerely

al

ps Sorry about the double post, just got a little excited thinking about all those tomahawks and smart bombs.
aaostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Can hardly wait to go in , O-HI-ER USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 04:46:54 (EST) 

If I would be searching for a serious-serious rifle, I would not consider anything "gunsmith built" because you can not get spare parts for it in war time, and in peace time there will be no serious 338 LM shooting. At least not for me as I´m not a police officer. BTW I think that the Finnish police has not shot one person with a sniper rifle in at least the last 20 years.

You´re right about the 1/8" adjustments. Apparently you can not get everything. In Finland a Leupold M1 or M3 costs around 1750 USD. A NightForce 5.5-22x56 mil-dot cost to me around 1000 USD. And no Leupold so far offers illuminated reticles. Premium Optics´s "with flashlight rechargeable" mil-dot is not a viable option. You can not play with flashlights in the dark every 30 minutes. Simrad is not an option due to extremly high cost.

Anyways any thoughts about the Dakota Longbow ? Has anyone used it ? What ammo have you used in it ? What about accuracy ?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !

Hexa
Hexa <heikki.juhola@telia.fi>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 07:34:42 (EST) 

By the way, what rifle are you shooting? HMMMMMm? Did Betty go civilian with you, Betty the Nailer?

Feed us the intel on that Log book you promised, Christmas is right around the corner and I have heard there's still room in the stocking.

Hey Sadam, here comes another package from Santa Ho!-Ho!-Ho!

Gotta love it guys my three year old was running around yelling "Wag the Dog!" ain't fooling nobody, even the kids Billy-Boy.
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
NOT BAGDAD, BY-GAWD! USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 09:32:31 (EST) 

Just got my copy of Ultimate Sniper. Maj. Plaster indicated that he did not advocate the use of detachable mounts for sniper weapons, with the exception of adding night vision.

Can you guess the question?
 
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 09:54:34 (EST) 

A PSS with a 5R. Hmmm...I wonder if the guy somehow got the custom shop to stick an M24 barrel in his PSS? If they make this a standard feature on the PSS, it would finally be worth the extra price.

Mike, call H.S. Precision. They will tell you about the VS and PSS stock construction and clear up any confusion.

Later all!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 10:30:20 (EST) 

To any and all soldiers who fought so valiantly against initially overwhelming odds, I solute you.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 10:39:29 (EST) 

LeMay! Nah, Renee hails from Washinton/Oragon/Alaska. She has all 10 fingers and only two eyes! Even has all her teeth!
By the way, it was during that second week multiple team scenario (barn - drug lord) when I picked you and Herig out of the bush. You may have had Rod paint your rig after that event. The rifle was very green and I could easily make out the top of the barrel, and most of the scope. I had a broadside view of you so that made it easier. The color really stood out when compared to the background. I never could see you or Rae, only a hint of you. But both rifles were relatively simple to pick up once my eye was drawn to them. I think they were in thier original color at the time. The McMillian impregnated camo was pretty bright and glossy when compared to the stuff you were laying in.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 13:39:55 (EST) 

Scott are you sure the Aluminum runs all the way out to the front sling swivels on th VS? I cut a VSS last year and it didn't. I was told it was a 1997 model.

On a positive note. I just got a Tasco SS10&40 Sniper Scope and I like it alot. I think that will go on my next project.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 14:29:32 (EST) 

Call HS Precision at 605-341-3006 and ask for Janet. She will give you the run down on the CURRENT manufacturing process of the VS and PSS stocks.
Scott <xring@yaddayaddayadda>
USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 15:35:05 (EST) 

I was just wondering what you all thought about BSA scopes?? I will be buying one, a BSA 24x44 with 1/8 e/w tactical adjustments, and a BDC, so if you can please tell me how you like them, an like how they compare to other scopes.

Thanks

Joshua belokur <Josh@ccsis.com>
USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 18:28:50 (EST) 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 18:28:51 (EST) 

I'm the proud poppa of one PSS cut to 20"/suppressed (for less
than 300 yd stuff), and one PSS with original 26" just because it's a
great country. I use Leupould glass ( mil dots), the Bushnell 800 RF, and once every few months I get my adrenaline kicks with a .50 Cal SS bolt gun.

Been to Gilette Wy. about 8 times shooting prarie dogs, and
I know the terrain all too well. It's God's country for shooters.
I'd like to meet Dave L sometime, and check out the Sniper Comp.... but I'm a little too damn busted up from a wasted youth to hump many miles.

Enough,I'll just observe for awhile, and thanks for the great site.

Watch 6
MAXX

MAXX <redneck08@hotmail.com>
near Blue Eye , Arkansas USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 18:43:53 (EST) 

Has anyone fit a Butler Creek scope cover to an M49 spotting scope? I'd like to get a few for my M49s, but I have yet to be able to determine that they actually make one that will fit the scope.
 
 

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 20:14:51 (EST) 

Jerry's Sport Center lists a 700VS for $505.95 wholesale and what they call a Model 700 Police Bolt Action Rifle, w/Det. mag, for $599.50 as the price with excise tax.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 21:55:45 (EST) 

Jeremy O'Neal <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 22:34:44 (EST) 

Grey, 6.5 bullets are good because they have very high sectional density at 140-160 grn. and relatively high ballistic coeficients for the bore size. the .260 rem fits in a short action unlike the other rounds you listed. I still prefer the 6.5-06' but the .260 and the 6.5/.284 are very accurate rounds that fit the .308 length action and mag, I shure would like an AR-10 in 6.5/.284...

I think HS changed their stocks within the last year or two because I have seen a VS and a Sendero within that time frame that both had the aluminium up in the fore end.

You can buy a PSS from one of the police supply outfits or a dealer that got one from a police supplier, but remington does not sell them to "regular people" anymore, 870 and 11-87 police are sold the same way. note that none of these firearms are in the remington retail catalog. There is another big rifle company that does sell it's top of the line sniper rig to regular guys, and those nasty awful shotguns with the extended mag tubes as well...
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Thursday, December 17, 1998 at 22:42:53 (EST)

I never hear anyone mention the Ruger 77. I handled a heavy varmint version in 308. The bolt cycled smooth and the rifle felt good to me. How far off from a Remington 700 is it?

Thanks,
Chris
Chris <cs141@nwonline.net>
Northern, Ohio USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 02:09:18 (EST) 

All: Need scope advice. My platform is a Rem 700 Police in .308 (my department is small but we're establishing a sniper/spotter team; we're buying our equipment and the department provides the training). I've settled on the Leopold for a variety of reasons. Now comes the decision best made with knowledgeable advice from experienced shooters. Choices are:

* M3 series (read the review on the site but more information is appreciated)
* 3.5x10 50mm (considered a 40mm but would prefer a 30mm tube)
* 4.5x14 50mm (ditto to above)

Have fired with a 3x9 40mm with mil weapons so I have a decent idea. However, more detailed information from users is needed. Please e-mail direct with your advice and suggestions. Pros, cons and gee-whiz stories appreciated.

Thanks,
Morris
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 09:08:57 (EST) 

" Ende"
Torsten <ya know>
G3ermany - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 09:15:42 (EST) 

Great post!

Is that polygonal, for lack of a better word, rifling along the lines of the Whitworth configuration, or more like the H-K, Lothar Walther, or post WW-II(stG 43?) profiles? The Soviets are noted for "borrowing" ideas from other nations.

I can see that you will be providing some REAL good techie info.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
CCCCOLD-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 09:44:14 (EST) 

Anyway, I'm a Remington fan through and through but the Savage was such a good deal I couldn't or wouldn't pass it up.I paid $475 Canadian (@ $300 American) for it.The Savage also had the 1/9 twist rate that I wanted most of all and the Remington VS has only the 1/12 twist.Eventhough I feel the overall quality of the Remington VS is far superior to the Savage 112 FV, I felt the 112 FV represented a better value in my mind for what I wanted this rifle for.By the way a Remington VS will run you about $800 up here.

I know some of you guys out there have 110 FP's or FV's in this calibre and I would appreciate any help with some recomended loads with the following bullets:

68 gr. Hornady Match
69 gr. Sierra Match
75 gr. Hornady A-Max

If any lighter bullets work for you (50-64 gr.) please let me know as well.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jeff Babineau <2jeff@blaikies.ns.ca>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 11:10:11 (EST) 

Jeff B. regarding a good shooting load for the 69 gr. Sierra,

I loaded for several match grade weapons for YEARS, and damn if didn't discover (in my Prarie Pooch bustin dayz in Gillette WY with a radical AR match weapon) that friggin Black Hills in SD can load
their 69 gr. "match" stuff in blue boxes of 50 that will shoot as
good as my handloads. I damn near cried.

Anyway, the best I ever "made" to approach the Black Hills with the
Sierra 69 was with 24.0 gr. of BLC-2, a Federal 205m match primer,
fl resize, trim, ream. laq. seal. yadayada... Set OAl at 2.230????
 

Good luck and happy shooting,

Watch 6
MAXX
 

MAXX <Redneck08@hotmail.com>
near Blue Eye, Arkansas USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 11:21:55 (EST) 

RE: your inquiry about Burris glass in 6.5X 20?????

Had a best shooting bud for years that swore that Burris was the
cats meow in 20-32 X mag. ranges.

Problem was, on a 6mm X .06 varmint blaster he had to send his
Burris glass back for a new one every time we went out....They
must of sent him 6 or 8 free scopes, and their customer service
is great....

They do look good, resolution and repeatability are Otay, but RAM-D is lacking for a real rifle.

Stick with Leo.....

MAXX <redneck08@hotmail.com>
near Blue Eye, AR USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 11:28:01 (EST) 

a friend e mailed your President ( I know, most of you didnt vote for him) here is the response for your information.

Some of you may want to write a nice Christmas card ?

Marius: pull it if you think its not appropriate !

"Ende"
 
 

P.S. Response ......
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If you have received such a message, you have received a "spoof."

We appreciate your interest in the work of the Administration.

Sincerely,

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The Office of Correspondence

P.S. Please read on - you may find the following information useful.

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The White House home page provides, among other things, a single point of
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Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 11:57:54 (EST) 

Bolt: NO, the elevation turret is NOT "cammed" to any specific load. It is a 1 moa per click turret. The upper markings coincide with the 173 grain M118 (in meters) but you can ignore that and use the bottom markings as they are given in 1 moa clicks. The turret is not a cam. The upper markings simply show you at what point the moa clicks would coincide with the ballistic arc of the round. You can get this turret for yards on request from Leupold - BUT I would not bother. The bottom scale is the one you worry about. You can jsut remark the upper scale to match your rifle. As the upper scale does not exactly match the 175 MK or 168 Mk it is not worth paying any attention to until you remark it to match your particular rifle.

The Badger base and rings are far superior to the Mk4 set. No comparison at all other thna general appearence.

I am told that the military didn't want a screw in sun shade (easily lost in the field) so it doesn't look like the LR M3 will get a sun shade next year. Write Leupold and beg. They do listen sometimes.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 14:39:27 (EST) 

gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 16:57:13 (EST) 

In the last course I attended, there was 4 '77s. One VLE, two VTs (one 223, one 308), and one old 77 (not Mark II). All shot sub-MOA, even with the crappy ammo provided.

About the A-Max 75 grain...

I would recommmend the 75 BTHP for social work. The A-Max has not been tested against barriers and gelatin yet. What looks like a V-Max/Ballistic Tip may not act like one.

My current load for the 75s is 23.8 WW 748 loaded to a OAL of 2.250 for the BTHP and 2.390 for the A-Max. This is straight out of the data sheet sent to me from Hornady.

Since most don't have the sheet, here is the mins/maxes for different powders....

IMR 3031 20.0 to 21.5
N135 20.9 to 22.1
AA 2495 20.0 to 22.3
AA 2520 20.7 to 22.8
H4895 20.9 to 23.3
N540 22.1 to 24.0
N140 21.8 to 24.0
VARGET 21.5 to 24.0
WW748 21.7 to 24.0
RL-15 21.7 to 24.0
BLC-2 22.8 to 25.6

No Ballistic Charts are available at this time, but (if you have a ballistics computer) the BC is:

.395 for the BTHP
.435 for the A-Max

SC's are both .213

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park, GA USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 17:21:28 (EST) 

Scott you realy got me thinking about past PSS's. You are right they were easier to clean than the new ones. I suspect they are not changing the tools as much as they used to.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif. USA - Friday, December 18, 1998 at 21:42:19 (EST) 

Sarge awaits replies!
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 00:40:45 (EST) 

Paul,
Saw your Nov. 12th , 1998 posting and thought that I would add a few thoughts on the subject. Others may not have heard of these techniques, …..or thought your thoughts.

Concerning the enlarged area at the rear of the barrel. I'm sure it would work, but getting it into play is another story. A lot of odd machining; …plus having an unequal amount of barrel steel around the bore may show up when the barrel heats.

Part 1, Overview:
Our rifle actions are not very good at supporting long heavy barrels due to the various cuts made for the ejection port, magazine well and trigger opening. There are various friction points in normal bedding which can stick when an action flexes during firing and prevent the action from returning to its former position. If it doesn't return each and every time then, inaccuracy is the result. Hard to describe this in print with few words. With block bedding, you can rule out this one big variable (the action floats), and you are left with only barrel and bullet quality to deal with. As a secondary benefit, by moving the bedding closer to the muzzle you are effectively shortening the barrel length. A relatively limber 25 inch barrel becomes a very rigid 17 inch barrel and this is always welcome. David Tubbs won several High Power Championships using this technique of bedding.

Part 2, Types of block bedding:
Type 1.) The first is to epoxy a properly bored aluminum tube (sleeve), 1.500" in diameter to the roughed up and degreased large end of the barrel. Drill and tap the underside with .250 by 28 tpi diameter holes and bed this sleeve into your stock making sure that the action, magazine, barrel, and recoil lug float. The rear shoulder of the sleeve will provide your recoil lug. When bedded this way action rigidity is a non issue and its only function is to hold the firing mechanism and bolt. It would simplify the process to have the large end of the barrel cylindrical in shape for 6 inches or so, before the taper started. I have bored an internally tapered sleeve and it was not a pleasant experience. The hole being tapered, small diameter, and six inches long. Double ear protection was needed because tool chattering occurred. This sleeved barrel was bedded into a wood 40-X stock which had been milled out to a shell in the desired sleeve location. A couple of pounds of Devcon provided an inert and strong area for the sleeve to lie in.

To forestall any question about the integrity of the sleeve/barrel bond, let me say that my partner and I once fired back-to-back Leech Cups on a hot August day. This is about 60 shots with a .308 Win. I did not rough the surface of this barrel, but only degreased it. The barrel/sleeve joint held fine. I admit to getting a queasy feeling midway through the second string concerning the said joint. My partner was shooting his first 1000 yard match and I didn't want anything to go wrong.
Safety was not an issue as I had left the receiver ring screw in as a back up. The screw itself touched nothing on the stock and only provided an emergency "stop" in case something went wrong.
The only downside I found to my block bedding was that when bench shooting I could detect a slight crosshair movement as I was pulling on the 4 lb. trigger. It wasn't very much, perhaps 1/8th minute or so, but it was very obvious with a 24X scope (action mounted). Pulling the trigger was actually causing the receiver or stock to bend. Hard to believe, but it is true. I went to a 2 oz. trigger and that solved any problems with flexing. The scope should be mounted on the block to alleviate this phenomena.

Type 2.) Another way to block bed is to use a square block. It is bored out to the barrel diameter and then drilled and tapped for several screws on each side. A slitting saw is then used to cut the top half off. The barreled action is then clamped into the split sleeve. There used to be some concern that the clamping would slightly distort the bore diameter, but this turned out not to be an issue.
Type 3.) In the early 1970s BR people would glue a section on the barrel directly into the stock. This method won many benchrest matches back when they were shooting 1/4" groups or so.

Type 4.) I use a Zelenak all aluminum stock which beds with a split clamp around the front action ring. Everything else floats. These have been sold for quite a few years for high power competition. Milosovich (long range shooter extraordinaire) uses one in official Palma competition. It has an adjustable buttstock, adjustable cheek piece, vertical hand grip, squarish ventilated forearm.

This about drains my brain of what I know on the subject of block or block type bedding. Please excuse my bandwidth use, but it was necessary explore this little known subject. Each paragraph could have been expanded to a full page.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 00:44:18 (EST) 

I used to pour over the old Herter's catalogs in the late '50s and '60s, and I think that is where I saw them. Things get foggy after 30+ years.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 01:03:25 (EST) 

On the Nylon 66, a great rifle! I remember one particular instance in Alaska about 1975 where I was shooting a 10/.22 and a buddy had a '66. at about 30 below zero the Ruger crapped out (very lightly oiled and it froze up after one shot) the Nylon kept chugging merrily away. Pissed me off to no end, had to make a fire and thaw the Ruger out!
If you want to make a lifelong enemy from a gunsmith, take a Nylon series apart and then give it to them to re-assemble. I know a couple that would rather spend time doing a warehouse full of Win. 97's than one '66.
Follow Ron N.'s advise Gunscrubber or Brakleen and usual bore cleaning to get out the crap. Go no further than removing cover plate to clean.

Get the Apache Black version ( black stock w/ chromed receiver cover) you'll be a real trend setter, and make us Sarge Hunters job a little easier :-}
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 09:50:15 (EST) 

peteR,
Yep! I rank them right alongside a Win. Model 97 as one I hate to see come into my shop. I also charge more to work on them.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 14:16:58 (EST) 

RE: Equipment

Ok, so I guess nobody has gained acess to any of the new Remington composite - barreled 700 models, so let's try some other equipment new on the scene: Has anyone tested ITT's new modular rifle scope that uses interchangeable night vision and daytime eyepieces? It's called the F7201 and uses 2.5-10 variable power, with a 56mm obj. lens. It uses a 3rd GEN intensifier. OR how about the Windrunner .50 caliber sniper rifle? Looks to be a 5 shot magazine, with a retractable skeleton stock at a weight of under 30 pounds.
Scott (T.O.O.)
PA USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 14:18:36 (EST) 

the 173´s work in Germany as well, last group I shot today measured 3" across and 1" high. At 300 Meters that is. Light was pretty bad and creature comforts were everything other than perfect. Just around freezing and rain out of 45° ! That is what we call "Jägerwetter" and in this weather my old unit had the best results when raiding and hunting our Fallschirmjäger ,Historically all to heavy laden, Airborne troopies with platoon size "Jagdkommandos".

Anyway, I still have to up my load a little to match te BDC of my Leupold M3LR, but that should be no Problem.

I am looking at the Airline Luggage allowance, and will let you know shortly how many my buddie and I can haul back.

Thanks again, and expect a little something incomming with the mail.

"Ende"
Torsten <Lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 15:55:16 (EST) 

I'm shooting a Savage FP110 Tactical, in .300 WinMag. I'm experimenting with various bullets and powders, but so far its a close match between Nosler BT's and Sierra MatchKing. Best results seem to be with Noslers at 180gr, and Sierra at 200gr. Powder is ususally best between 69-70gr IMR 4350, but I have recently begun a few trials with 7828. I've not shot enough groups with 7828 to begin to assess it's accuracy, but my initial groups did not seem to be very encouraging.

I've put about 300 rounds through, so far, and my overall average at 100 yards is 1.3" I include every single shot I've fired in this average, including the ones I wish would go away, and some downright awful loadings. So my average is an accurate estimation and it is not "embellished" in any way. I'm honest with myself.

So when I hear of others like Fred? who is claiming .75" at 200 yards, I am a bit incredulous. Either he is being "selective" about his average (conveniently ignoring a few bad groups that really opened up his average), or else he is one hell of a good shot. Since I do not know him, I will assume he is just one kick ass shooter.

But my groups average 1.3" @ 100 yards. However, I have my good days and my bad days. I have some groups that are really nice (.36 and .56, for instance). What I am looking for above all is consistency. I wish I could lower my standard deviation. In other words, I wish my average was 1" with some at .9 and some at 1.1, rather than 1" with some at .5 and some at 1.5. I want more consistency before I work on greater overall accuracy.

I use R-P brass (nickle). I've just recently begun neck sizing only, but it's too early to tell if it is helping any. I figure it can't hurt.

Also, I've begun moly coating and I would like to know if it is possible that that could have an adverse effect.

I use a harris bipod on the front and a 25lb. bag of lead shot on the rear (that way, i can adjust elevation by squeezing the bag a bit and not heavy-handling the rifle).

Full details and some scans/photos of some of my better groups can be found at my website (www.wallaceinfo.com). Scroll down the left side index to the "target" icon under "Reloading Data" and have a look.

I use a database that i developed to track load data. It gives me reports that include such things as overall average, average for a particular bullet, average for a particular bullet/powder combo, average for bullet/powder/OAL combo, day's average, month's average, etc.

I use the compensated measuring technique (outer edge-to-edge MINUS bullet diameter).

One thing I notice is that my average is getting worse!!! My best daily averages occured in September, when I bought the rifle and have opened up thereafter. This is in conjunction with increasing the OAL to 3.6 inches. I'm thinking of backing off to 3.55" where my best group average seemed to be. I know that at 3.6" the bullet is definately touching the rifling - perhaps a bit too snugly. Is that possible?

Any comments would be appreciated. And be sure to have a look at my results web page.
 

Kirby L. Wallace
kirby@wallaceinfo.com
www.wallaceinfo.com
 

Kirby L. Wallace <kirby@wallaceinfo.com>
Tulsa, OK USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 17:26:23 (EST) 

Sarge, I've had a Remington 66 since they came out. Well no there was a short period that the Marines wouldn't let me carry one. Ther'e not target rifles, I can get around four to five inch groups at 100 yards with open sights and high velocity ammo. Good running small game guns.

Pat after thinking it over, I remembered that Sea Bees and Corpsmen are acceptable Navy people.

There is a carbon fiber barreled, Remington action, made in Utah. I've shot one in 270, kicks like a mule. Also got to handle one in 300 mag that was in a McMillan tac stock, could not weighed 6 pounds!!! The owner of the 270 said it stayed in an inch.

The Remington PSS makes a pretty good deer rifle, ain't that heavy, lot lighter than the TBA M40. I'm still working the bugs out of that.

Waxing the snowshoes in the Uintas.

Pat II
P. Lakin <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks(and I mean white-14" and still snowing, Utah USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 19:29:46 (EST) 

Pipe up Paul! Fill us in on that conversation. It sounded pretty interesting!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 20:38:23 (EST) 

Memorable day, Clinton gets impeachmed and I get my divorce papers in the mail. Don't know whether to celebrate or celebrate!

One, two, three what are we fighting for....?

Rush made a good comment tonight. Said that Bill has made it easier on the rest of use Male butt heads. Gonna be hard to sue for sexual harrasment if he gets off of this one.
gooch <gooch@stormmountain.com>
USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 22:15:03 (EST) 

Sarge, had one back in the early 70's. Buy one again if I could.

Remmember Disabled Vets this week
 

Snow here, 23deg outside.
bill <billmohr@borg.com>
central, ny USA - Saturday, December 19, 1998 at 22:36:37 (EST)