Sniper Country Duty Roster

Anyone used the Grand Slams on Whitetails? I figure the 165's ought to be about right, but wondered what results you guys had had.

Also, does anyone know the words to "Taps"?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 00:34:54 (ZULU)

Taps

http://www.west-point.org/taps/Taps.html

medicjim
Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 01:58:34 (ZULU)

Ok, the taser incident officer was cleared.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22047054/

Travis, there are no words to "Taps" none are needed. Just the music should bring a tear to your eye.(Edited... I stand corrected. Well I'm sitting actually. But pretty straight)

DirtySteve, Out

dirtysteve
Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 02:47:15 (ZULU)

Words? Taps? I just heard it played yesterday, at the funeral for my step-grandfather, WWII USN veteran. The detail who rendered honors at the Southern Wisconsin Veterans Memorial Cemetery was composed of men from every branch. They were very sharp.....and proud.

Taps makes my eyes leak every time, as does the national anthem and Amazing Grace......it's the meaning behind the song, not the song itself.

Click my name for a pic, taken by Joe's other half. NOT a trophy by any means, but it's the opportunity that presented itself, and just a few minutes before dark on my last day at that. No comments about the mug shot....

I have a pic with Joe in it, and his FIL too, I'll only put that up if Joe is OK with it.

Have an opportunity to pick up 500 rounds of LC .308, 155 grain ball, for $225. It's fairly recent production. Any issues with recent versions of this brass for reloading other than the usual slightly reduced case volume?

How did everyone else's hunt go?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 04:16:06 (ZULU)

Rod and Jim Thanks. I'll be giving them a try, but not on the deer, I guess I'll stick to the Accubonds or such type of polimer tip for the deer loads. From what I've heard and in my opinion, there just doesn't seem to be a good cross over. SMK's maybe, but Sierra says not too. I've had great success with Accubonds so far in my RUM and Winmag as far as humane kills. Everything I've shot with them has been DRT, and as far away as 600yds on heads and almost 800 on bodies. They've mostly been head shots though because of the meat loss. They are accurate with a fair BC for a hunting bullets. That's why I had to ask advise on how they shot at long ranges in the .308 with it's slower velocity. Big difference in 180grn at 3275fps and 155 at 2800. I had a supprise today. My RUM shot a 5 shot.487@100 with hunting load and the .308 shot a .620@100 with LCM 173. I only had time to shoot one group each. I blame it on the socpes. I think the .308 is capable of much more accuracy if I just had a better scope and start hand loading for it. The current scope is just not as crisp and lacks the power I desire. Next spring the Zeiss 3.5x10x50 goes and gets replaced with a Leup 4.5x14x50 LR/T M1 Illumunated or an equivilant Night Force.

Travis There was a good article about TAPS and the playing of it at military burrial ceremonies. It was in the NOV 10 issue of the "Commercial Appeal" from memphis TN. I'm sure you can find the article on google. It included an interview with one of the Navy band stationed in Millington, and how the demand for taps has gotton so high in the last few years that the military has resorted in some cases to playing a recording of the song from an electric device inserted into a ceremonial bugel. Sad but true.

Geoff Nice looking buck. Is the inside spread about 18 inches? I can't tell age from side but he's deffinately a shooter for my area of the country. Not the law, but my land owner likes 18in and 8pts. He looks like he'd fit the bill which is hard to come by with the neighbors shooting everything from spikes and up.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 05:08:51 (ZULU)

Jeff,

At Dad's funeral here a while back, "taps" was played on a really crappy stereo, on a really crappy recording. Sounded like a cassette that had been left on someone's dash in the heat for a few years.

I guess a new CD and stereo set would be a good memorial gift to the VFW. By the look and sound, I'd be willing to bet the blanks they fired were reloads, too. I owe those guys a little something.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 06:39:43 (ZULU)

Geoff M

Took a nice 10 pionter yesterday, not a big rake , but a nice sized deer. 185# field dressed.

Gary Kaney
N, ILL, - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 11:02:13 (ZULU)

Geoff M:

LC normal production has to meet a certain spec, and is inspected too. I wouldn't have any hesitation in acquiring on that account. Some fellows choose LC over other US commercial for brass, so it must be decent stuff.

I don't know if that is a good price, but ammunition and components are all racing upwards in price, grab the good pricing while you can!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 14:16:34 (ZULU)

Geoff I saw some LC match at auction somewhere just a few days ago. It was at $90 for 100 rounds at the time I was looking, but still had a couple days to go so I'm not sure what it finished up for, if that helps any.

Lito During dry firing exercise I noticed 1/4 MOA jump in scope when the pin drops and the bolt jumps up and loose. Do you think this is stress that is being relieved by the pressure being taken off the action. If so what should be done to fix this? If not what else could it be? Hope things are going well with your case.

Travis That is sad in itself. My mother overuled me when I asked that taps be played for my father who was a WW II and Korea Vet. She did allow "Amazing Grace" and "Old Rugged Cross", a Methodist favorite, to be sung though, as these were his favorite Hymns. I think his fellow vets were disappionted, as he was an active member, and had donated a lot to the war museum in Covington, including his AVG back patch.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 16:25:56 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Do you have an adjustable trigger you've been monkeying around with?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 17:46:48 (ZULU)

Guys,

Click. I can't fucking believe this. Apparently, we're racists when we use the term "noose".

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 19:16:20 (ZULU)

Gear:

Check out the McNETT CAMO FORM™ CAMO WRAP.

http://www.actiongear.com search term "McNett".

Advert copy:

This ingenious patterned wrap conforms to the shape of any hard-surfaced item, immediately concealing, silencing, and adding a layer of padding and insulation that reduces glare and enhances grip even when wet. Unlike adhesive tapes, the heavy, textured stretch fabric clings to itself, leaves no sticky gunk on your hands or your gear. Roll: 2" Wide x 144" / 4 yds.

COLORS: (01) Woodland Camo; (33) Desert 3-Color; (59)Digi-Cam Green; (60)Digi-Cam Desert; (99)Army ACU Universal Digital Camouflage.

$14/roll

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 00:00:40 (ZULU)

Travis: well, I guess that salsa ad which featured the line "New York City? Get a rope!" is out, too.

These are strange times.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 00:14:09 (ZULU)

Guys,

Will a .30-06 neck die work for other .30 calibers? I was thinking of using it for my .30-30, but wondered about the advisability of doing so.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 02:16:28 (ZULU)

Travis:

Neck-only dies are not recommended for lever-action rifles chambered for bottleneck cartridges. The actions doen't have a lot of camming force to deal with slightly oversize cases.

(I'm guessing you don't have one of the relatively rare bolt-action .30-30 rifles).

Don't know about single-shots like the TC, suspect same issues arise for neck-only sizing.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 02:53:46 (ZULU)

Rod,

If I'm shooting them out of the same rifle, they wouldn't be oversized, would they?

As for the bolt action .30-30, I've been meaning to pick one up, sometime. From some of the data I've seen, I'm kind of interested in trying to develop some higher performance loads, as it seems that with more modern powders and bullets, a guy could have some pretty impressive performance, as compared to the loads for a standard lever action type load. Since nobody seems to really care about the bolt actions, I figure I can pick one up for under $100. Maybe buy two, and get a .22 barrel with a .30-30 chamber.

I've been wanting to get some sabots to mess around with the saboted .30-30 loads, using a .22 bullet. From all accounts I've heard, the Winchester accelerators are pretty impressive.

Are there any varmint calibers based on the .30-30 case?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 03:21:25 (ZULU)

Travis Rods right about the neck sizing on lever actions, it applys to autos also. I have no problems with neck sizing for my encore or my NEF. However, EA Brown recomends full length resizing for the single shots for some reason. They are experts in single shot accuracy. I'm not looking for super accuracy out of any of my single shot guns. They also sell the sabbots you mentioned. My question is will the 30-06 die lower far enough on the 30-30 case to size the neck with the 30-30 being shorter? As far as supping them up, take case strength into account.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 03:33:56 (ZULU)

Jeff,

I was just sitting here, wondering about the length factor, but my back hurts too much to warrant getting up for anything less than taking a massive crap or the house catching fire. I'll check on the length later. That seems to be when I plan to do everything these days-LATER.

Edited To Add:

I checked. No way the '06 die will work. I suspected as much, but had to try.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 03:44:32 (ZULU)

non-ceramic body armor strike plate:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071201/bullet_proof_071201/20071201?hub=TopStories

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 12:30:25 (ZULU)

Hey gents,

I don't know what you have heard about this stuff but after watching a demonstration on future weapons I was pretty impressed. If you haven't heard anything about dragon skin it is a non ceramic body armor as well and after watching the the future weapons video on it you might be as well.

I tell you what, I already have a full set of body armor and i am still seriously thinking about picking up a set for when SHTF.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS0pSwdQfbY

Hope you guys enjoy the links

Morgue out

Joe,

I get to roll out for a couple days, no net and no misc BS. going to be a good time, talk to you when I get back.

edited to add...

the New multi shot 40mm... Sadly I haven't had a chance to touch one... but i would so like to wring one out on the range...

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/t_mourge/weapons/m32-thumb.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/t_mourge/weapons/M32.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/t_mourge/weapons/IMGP0412.jpg

Mourge
Overseas, - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 17:23:30 (ZULU)

re: body armor

I saw the "Future Weapons" segment on the Dragon Skin product,

was very impressed. Looked like a better mouse trap.

(Vids are also available on vendor web site too).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 19:48:18 (ZULU)

Sorting buckets of brass sucks. Pulling bullets sucks worse.

Duman
Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 22:45:16 (ZULU)

Duman,

I was just looking at my "pull" box. I definitely need one of those cam lock bullet pullers.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 23:11:24 (ZULU)

Click. Enjoy.

Also, check this one out.Sound advice: http://despair.com/propaganda.html

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 05:37:59 (ZULU)

Just said good bye to best friend of last 30 years. He is off to box for third tour. Same age as me. Great man and we have fought side by side many times. I feel lke crap for not being with him. Herd yesterday they gave age waver to 61 year old. I wonder if they will wave on me and ignore the six major knee repairs?

I am bored making slings.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 14:47:05 (ZULU)

Mornin Men It's started our third Muzzle loader season here in TN. I wish they could just line everything up in a row and not jump around so much. Now I've got to head to the airport to hang a P&W 1340 radial engine. IT wouldn't be so bad except where we hang them is in the door of the hanger, and now that gun season has ended for a couple of weeks, the temperatures have dropped to the 30's and the winds are about 15knots. It was in the upper 60's for the last week of this past gun season?!?! I think I'm gonna try to talk the mechanic into using the forklift to hang the thing. The only problem I can see is that they have hung them their way for 25 years. I'm the new head pilot, but that doesn't mean they do everything the way I say. Hell, I can't even get my wife to leave my favorite coffee mug alone. I even went so far as to buy her 5 of the insulated ones from Starbucks. $21 each, $105 for coffee mugs. One for each day. They are all in her car from last week, and so she takes mine,Cause it's Monday and she hasn't had enough time to get hers out of the car this weekend. My only one, that I wash everyday when done. Tradition is hard to break, even if it is 30 degrees warmer inside the hanger, and your wife has a back seat full of used muggs.

Anyone wanting to donate 5-10 155 Scenars Email me. My rifle doesn't seem to like light bullets. At least not factory ammo. I've tried 4 different types, none of which shoot less than 2in at 100. I've tried 5 heavier "168 and up" factory loads and they all shoot into 1 inch. I'd like to get an idea about them before buying 100. Actually I'd be more than happy to pay for the small sample and postage.

Joe M I'm considering the info you sent carefully. Probably give this two years, and if it doesn't get better, then take the offer. Thanks for the hope of a plan B to what I'm doing now. I'll need to know more about disqualifiers. I've had some knee and shoulder surgeries but they are in good shape now.

Counselor Pablito Continued good luck in your court case. Hope all's going well.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 15:40:54 (ZULU)

Hey Mike Undude

Been thinking the same thing. During the FPF they could use me as a titanium filled projectile. I could do some damage.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 18:15:34 (ZULU)

Finger.....put all three of us together, and they can make that projectile a cannister round.....was gonna make it this weekend, but the spouse is making noises about reconciliation and I hadda strike while the iron was hot, if you know what I mean. Showed Matt that yes, you CAN catch a car on fire with just ball ammo! Sixty rounds of 855 ball in the gas tank in just a few seconds will do the trick. He's a hoot when he's nervous....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 21:58:18 (ZULU)

Charles,

You should show him the video of the squad car fully engulfed in flames after some numbnuts left his loaded shotgun with one in the chamber in the trunk, then smacked a speedbump extra hard.

I hope they made him walk home.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 22:04:31 (ZULU)

Chuck,

Wish you and momma all the luck in the world. In my prayers.

sad news: I hadda contact Rock in Bangkok today. His Mom called and said his Dad passed away. He is on his way back from vacation.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 22:24:08 (ZULU)

I turned 61 in July.

I've been lucky with knees - they are fine, though I thought I might have broken a tibia when I slipped while running part of our O-course last week. Turned out just to be a large hematoma.

It's the brain which doesn't work so hot any more. Now, where ARE my car keys... :D

Chuck: good luck with the missus - hope it works out for you.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 23:20:30 (ZULU)

Jeff:

If you don't get any better offers I'll send you some.

Unlike the US, I don't believe Canada has any regs on exporting projectiles (at low velocity :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 00:26:30 (ZULU)

Rats. I'm sorry to hear about Rock's dad. Bad way to end a vacation. And thanks from all for the wellwishing. I'd much rather take up with the one I have than try to break in a new one. Plus, I get to keep all my pension. Well, that's not really true, this way she'll get ALL of it instead of only half, but it sounds better.

One of the worst things about getting old is when you get Alzheimer's AND a sense of deja vu.....you know you've been here before, you just can't remember where the hell you are....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 01:11:44 (ZULU)

Recently re-discovered data from this summer:

Pistol: 45-ACP HK-USP45F

Bullet: 230-gr Rainier Ballistics Plated HP

Powder: 5.0-gr Bullseye

Mean: 919 fps

SD: 11 fps

Sample Size: 11

Altitude: ~8800' ASL

YMMV

Duman
Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 02:01:51 (ZULU)

Charles and Lindy,

I'm only 30, so the memory loss thing is kinda new to me. Is it normal that when I walk through the house looking for something, I always end up looking for it in the fridge?

P.S.-I was thumbing through my wife's Avon catalog the other day on a long road trip with her folks (trying not to jump out of the car) and saw a time saver for us memory challenged folks. It's a T.V. remote keychain. I call it a time saver because with it, I'd be able to lose my keys AND the remote simultaneously.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 02:37:36 (ZULU)

Charles,

One GOOD thing about Alzheimer's is that you're always making new friends and learning new things.

Wait... that's two things...

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 05:47:56 (ZULU)

The other advantage to having Alzheimers is....Ya get to sleep with a differant woman every night of the week.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 11:25:01 (ZULU)

New "career" for Gooch. Take a wild guess. Wrong... Check out www.samaritanhs.org

I'm the night manager there...

LOL

Out here

Gooch
Hot Sprangs, AR, - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 12:09:39 (ZULU)

Master Gooch Hows it been going? I've been gone for 6 years, but after coming back wondered where you were. Saw the tripod, and made one. Great idea. Already used it to steady a 425yd head shot on a doe that I had no rest for otherwise. I was in the middle of a cut corn field and the ground dropped off enough to make the bipod too short. The camera tripod worked perfectly. Come see us more often.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 13:19:06 (ZULU)

I don't post here much but I still lurk all the time. I wanted to pass this on, some of you may know this Fallen Solider.

WV SF Solider to be buried at Arlington Today.

12/03/2007

Please Pray

Staff

Charleston

A West Virginia soldier, a few hours from his death in Iraq, had a final request for his parents. He wanted them to pray for the men who served under him.

Special Forces Captain Benjamin Tiffner will be buried Tuesday in Arlington National Cemetery. He died Nov. 7 in Baghdad of wounds suffered when an improvised explosive device struck him.

Family friend Randy Curry of Alum Creek, who watched Tiffner grow up in Kanawha and Clay counties, says the 31-year-old Tiffner was a special man who cared for the spiritual conditions of the 11 men in his group. He says Tiffner spoke to his parents just a few hours before he lost his life.

"He told his parents, 'Please pray for these men,'" Curry said. "He had witnessed to each of them about the Lord and about Christ as his Savior and he wanted them to have that same peace."

Tiffner grew up in a missionary home. His father will officiate Tuesday's funeral service.

Curry says a lot of good has already resulted from Tiffner's death. He says his parents want the service to focus on their son's relationship with God. The service at Murphy Funeral Home will begin and end with the hymn "To God Be The Glory."

"That gives you a good idea of where they want the emphasis to be," Curry continued. "And that's where their hope and confidence is right now."

The funeral service will be followed by a burial service at Arlington National Cemetery. Curry says an Honor Guard will carry Captain Tiffner's remains to the grave followed by a 21-gun salute and Taps.

Curry says he'll never forget Tiffner's smile and his leadership abilities that were evident from a very young age.

"He would do anything they would ask him to do and he would do it with every bit of his energy and effort. He really enjoyed training and working hard," Curry said.

One of Captain Tiffner's instructors at West Point years ago wrote a message about him in an internet Guest Book Monday.

"To the family and friends of CPT Tiffner, my condolences to you. I was shocked to hear of Ben's passing this morning. Though it has been many years since Ben was assigned to me as a plebe at West Point, I will always remember his uncommon qualities. He was honest, hardworking, loyal, good humored, and a fine friend. I will never forget Ben."

http://www.wvmetronews.com/index.cfm?func=displayfullstory&storyid=22393

Keith
WV, - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 17:45:32 (ZULU)

Gooch,

It's a fine thing you're doing there. Sounds like a good program. I hate to see all the programs that only help a person halfway. Yes, helping a person get a job or pay the light bill is good. But, if they have no way to get to work, what good is their job?

What's the verse in the bible about going the extra mile? Something about, "if a man asks you to walk a mile with him, go three?"? I was just looking for it the other day. Too bad my wife sees these proverbs as empty platitudes, rather than life lessons.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 20:01:00 (ZULU)

From another site:

Dangerous appointment to the BATF!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Senate Close To Confirming A Ted Kennedy-style Liberal To BATFE

-- Contact your Senator immediately

Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert

8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151

Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408

http://www.gunowners.org

Tuesday, December 4, 2007

"We'll miss him in Massachusetts, but he'll be a strong leader at

ATF, and I look forward to working with him on key issues on gun

control." -- Senator Ted Kennedy

The above quote highlights all you need to know about Michael

Sullivan, the acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms and Explosives.

Sullivan was, unfortunately, nominated by President Bush to

permanently take over ATF this year. Right before Thanksgiving, the

Senate "hotlined" his name for unanimous consent approval.

(Hotlining is a parliamentary maneuver which allows non-controversial

bills or nominations to be unanimously approved by the Senate without

debate or a vote.)

GOA immediately sent a letter to each Senator's office, urging them

to oppose the Sullivan nomination. Thankfully, one senator

subsequently objected to Sullivan's approval, and his nomination was

put on hold. However, that legislator is now coming under fire from

other senators, who are asking him to withdraw his "hold."

That's why it's important for gun owners to contact their two

Senators. Under Sullivan's leadership, the ATF has gone berserk.

Sure, the problems at ATF didn't originate with him, but Sullivan has

certainly done nothing to put out the fire.

While discussing the agency's 2008 appropriations bill, the House

Commerce & Justice committee issued a stinging rebuke for the ATF:

"The committee has heard reports that ATF has pursued license

revocations and denials against firearms dealers based on violations

that consist largely of recordkeeping errors of various types that

are unlikely to impede tracing investigations or prosecution of

individuals who use firearms in crime. The Committee encourages ATF

to consider lesser gradation of sanctions for recordkeeping errors."

[House Committee report on HR 3093.]

The strategy, that was begun long before Sullivan arrived, has

continued unabated under his tutelage. ATF inspectors try to find

any violation they can, usually focusing on clerical mistakes.

A family gun business that had been in operation for years in

Baltimore, Maryland was attacked because of the "wanton, repeated

crime" of abbreviating Baltimore as "Blto" on the teeny,

tiny spaces

on the 4473 forms.

Now, the agency has turned their collective guns on Red's Trading

Post in Idaho, among others. Even though one ATF agent told the

manager that Red's was "one of the best small gun shops" he'd ever

seen, the ATF has continued its assault on this gun shop (which has

been in business for decades) for minor clerical mistakes and failing

to put up a poster.

According to WorldNetDaily, one judge who is familiar with the Red's

Trading Post case found "the ATF speaks of violations found during

the inspections of 2000 and 2005, but fails to reveal that additional

investigations in 2001 and 2007 revealed no violations or problems."

The judge also noted the ATF was exaggerating the situation by

"double counting" some violations.

The agency holds a continuing animus against gun owners and dealers.

Inspectors have no handbook under which to operate, and the absence

of such written procedures allows them to be arbitrary and

capricious.

Americans don't need an anti-gun cop from Massachusetts as the

Director of the federal gun police.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 00:41:18 (ZULU)

Anyone know a good way to train a dog that seems incapable of shitting anywhere except INSIDE my house?

I even stayed up until about 3 a.m. this morning, trying to catch her squatting, and every time I'd get up and follow her to her favorite spot, she'd look guilty as hell, and come back to me. I took her out at least 6 times, and she'd pee, but, come morning, I sat down at my desk and put my foot right in a loaf!

I was displeased. Right before I logged on, I took her out, she peed, I brought her in, grabbed the laptop, and guess what? Present all over some clothes in the laundry room. If I didn't like her so much, I'd just rub her face in it and shoot her in the back of the head.

We don't have room for crate training at the moment, and I never cared for that method, anyhow. Any ideas?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 05:54:00 (ZULU)

Travis -

1. Crate training works very well... Make room for it.

2. Get her Vet checked to make sure there aren't any issues for infections, etc that would make her have to go for pee/poop more than usual.

3. Put her in a nice crate (put a blanky or somethin easy to clean)- a little bit of water to wet her whistle with when you bed down. Might whine abit to start with, but will settle down. Crate should be big enough to turn around in and lay down commfortably - but not so mega big - that - should they take a dump in it - they have to now lay next to or just touching it. They will get the idea that "I'm stuck with this if I go in the crate"

4. Of course let her out of the crate first thing when you're up. Be consistent with this. She'll get into the pattern, but you gotta do the part. If the kids are unreliable, then you gotta do it.

5. This is not cruel. It will make patterns for her to get into. You'll clean the crate a time or two or more. After awhile - she'll be into that pattern to go out in the morning

6. Every once in a rare time, she'll get hold of something odd, etc - and just make a mess on the floor, in the crate, etc. You'll be able to tell that this was a case of her being sick...

Good luck man :)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 11:45:05 (ZULU)

Travis - I'm with Ken...BTDT, the crate is an effetive and humane way to teach a dog where to do 'business'. The one point I have to add is that you don't want to use the crate as punishment, it should be treated as her "refuge" for safety, peace and calm.

medicjim
Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 17:24:10 (ZULU)

Travis -- Forgot to mention what Jim says ... definitely NOT to use the crate as punishment. During the day - we'd leave their crates open and of course tidy. Lots of times - the dog would go lay inside their crate to take a knap.....

take care,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 17:27:17 (ZULU)

Travis..If you don't have room for crate training try feeding twice a day followed by outside potty break. Don't leave food down all the time. If there is an accident, bitter apple solution available at pet stores, sprayed on a cotton ball and inserted in the dogs mouth once or twice at the site of the "accident" then being taken outside should soon work. You must catch the dog IN THE ACT of soiling in the house for this to work properly. Seems the taste is a very effective deterrent when associated with inside soiling. Also dog should be praised when doing their "business" outside in a proper place. I house trained a beagle using these methods in less than 6 weeks and we all know how stubborn they can be. Good luck Str8shot

str8shot
S. Central, MI , USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 18:12:18 (ZULU)

The NIE on Iran's Nuke program states that they "likely" stopped work on their bomb in 03. The news is reporting it as "fact." That is bad ju-ju. One wonders what then Dr. A.Q. Khan was giving Iran in late 2003/ 2004?

If you were paying attention to the side show of India/ pakistan nuclear pursuits from the early 70s thru the final no-shit explosions of 98; you may recall the same arguments: "No, they aren't...yes they are...we need to dissuade thru negotiations...they said they stopped.." We went around and around---and basically, this was a secret-assed program in a country (Muslim) where we had few "reliable" sources. And even fewer planted assets. So we knew nothing, just spent years guessing--and being ditracted by bigger things like the Soviets, vietnam, an oil embargo, 3 mile island, saddam, China, Bosnia, etc. (click my name for the nuke-chronology)

Much like today--we are distracted by many things.

So...What's changed since last year? Nobody else seems to give a shit, so I'll let ya know: We've opened "source" material to the analysts. And, gave them an order to use that knowledge previously withheld (to protect these sources---learned from prior bad shit from doing this very thing)--in assessing the information provided. So basically, you have some geek desk jock with no first-hand knowledge of any source making judgments on credibility. The field agent--who knows the guys who give them the intel, and his station chief--who knows the agent running these sources, used to jointly make these judgments (number scale of credibility) and that was that. No longer--now they get second guessed by MBAs in a cozy Virginia office. I can see it now: "Hmmmm...this source is selling out his own country....he can't be trusted if he is a treasonous bastard to his own people...what's this? we paid him too? No way this guy can be trusted...disregard all that he says....hmmm, another treasonous bastard? He says the same thing the other bastard said? A pattern! Disregard all this bullshit..." Geek: "Sir, based on our analysis, no credible evidence of Iran's nuke program exists...in fact, we find that the only credible person turns out to be Ahmadinejad...and, as an aside, we also discovered that Andropov is still alive and his government doesn't have nukes either."

In case you missed it--that scenario describes almost every damned human-source in existance. If this is how we want to play the spy game, may as well fold up the tent and go home. Disband the CIA, DIA and any other alphabet and spend that budget on bomb shelters. Heheh.

Bottom line: The report is not definitive. It is merely the newest guess, based on some new criteria for judging our raw data. It is worth the paper it is printed on, only if you need to whipe your ass right now...or to line a crate for dog training.

I am at a loss to decide which is the most dangerous situation--this report, or the stupid new methods used to obtain a 180-degree out assessment. Both are deadly to our country...

I guess we'll know based on who nukes us first:))

Joe M
Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 20:33:50 (ZULU)

Travis, crates come and go in my house all the time. But I am curious: How do you have room for the dog but no room for a crate that fits the dog?

Joe M
Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 20:39:31 (ZULU)

I know this is Travis's job. :) But take a look at the UW-Madison PD chasing a Krispy Kream truck and yes those are donuts falling into the road!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOcGj2S_Lug

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 00:44:42 (ZULU)

AK vs. AR. vs. Mosin Nagant: which is better?

Click on my name for the answer.

Cheers!

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 01:52:54 (ZULU)

Joe M, IMO this NIE was all about starting with the answer and them figuring out what questions to ask. The national level intelligence agencies have become too much a part of the DC crowd and the politics. The guys out working are still as good as ever, but 99% of the public never gets to know that because their bosses are political douchebags.

Again, IMO, the same thing that burned the Bush admin pre-OIF(intrepreting facts based on what you wanted to see) is swinging the other way WRT Iran. The problem is that we're not erring on the side of greatest caution, and that's dumb.

Hopefully, this is simply an Admin attempt to de-escalate and offer a fig leaf to Iraq WRT their nuke program. Perhaps they'll take it. If nothing else, once you swallow the gall of admitting you were wrong, it's an opportunity to show you were being "reasonable" to the world. That way, when we get kicked in the sack, we appear to be the wronged party to a greater % of the public. The Blame America 1st asshats will always be there, but perhaps we can find some way to revoke their citizenship or if not Amcits, just liquidate them;) S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 02:39:21 (ZULU)

Guys,

Hope all of you in Omaha are okay. I'm interested in the details of this deal, since Nebraska only recently got concealed carry. I hope the shooter didn't have a permit. If he did, it'll only be fodder for the idiot machine.

Joe M.,

The dogs are outside, primarily. I bring them in at night to make my wife feel secure, since my sleeping pills wipe me completely out. Right now, we have way more stuff in the house than usual, so there's no room for the crate. I've got a spot in mind, but as soon as I clear it out, my wife will stockpile christmas shit right there.

Joe U.,

LOL, thanks for filling in. I'd already seen it, and it was on T.V. tonight. I figured some folks would figure I was just being a dick, if I were to post a video of cops in hot pursuit of a doughnut truck.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 03:48:31 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Not all analysts are (were) geeks. ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 05:32:03 (ZULU)

Ken M: RE: Velosity versus barrel length.

You may be able to save yourself a lot of shooting. What you're proposing to do has allready been done. Click on name, or paste and copy to your browser

http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

Barrel length started at 22" and ended at 10". Same barrel was used by cutting off an inch for each length tested.

JayDee
SoCentral, WA, US of A - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 06:22:28 (ZULU)

JayDee: Good one. I'll check it out when I'm rested and sober.

Scott Ott has questions for the Republican candidates. Click my name.

CDC'
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 06:52:17 (ZULU)

jc: No, not all. Langley got a few things quite right. Mostly, we do not know what these were:))

Geoff M: The Bloody Mary is perfected. The problem with the last batch was the big stein we used---I was not able to scale the ingredients worth a damn. So I sat here with a proper tumbler and tinkered with the mix until i got it right. It was the fourth try that was goooood. I think...I don't really remember.

There's been lotsa cut-barrel articles for velocities, but usually on bolt guns. The AR does weirder things as the barrel gets short--and the tuning of the gas system is what I'd be interested in. I heard from some navy-types that their 10.5" carbines were reliable when the suppressors were attached, and they weren't so without. I did not fire enough to find out what that meant--but I did learn that a 10.5" barrel is loud as a Who concert ear injection. The suppressor they had was the civilized way to engage savages.

More deer season starting tomorrow.

Does it mean anything that the Hornady Interlock SST has the same color plastic tip that the 165 TAP has? And that this is a different shade than the 168 Amax tip of the civie TAP?

Since when is "saving yourself a whole lotta shooting" a good thing?

Joe M
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 07:18:52 (ZULU)

Joe,

That sucks. That means the A-max, the V-max, AND the interlock all look identical. I was just arguing with a buddy at the gunshop the other day about this. He told me a Hornady rep told him the A-max had a yellow tip. After arguing for about ten minutes, (I shoulda bet him a box of bullets) he cracked open two boxes. He looked pretty crestfallen when he realised I was right.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 07:28:29 (ZULU)

JayDee, thanks but I'm not especially interested in 5.56 data at this time. I have a fairly good handle on that cartridge and I'm moving elsewhere for serious use.

Also, WRT saving yourself some shooting, this is the internet, I have fairly limited use for most data from unknown individuals on the net. I don't trust open source info without corroborating sources. Hell, I don't trust classified sources without corroborating independant sources.

There may well be a message there regarding recent issue of discussion. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 08:14:40 (ZULU)

Oh, and I strongly suspect that the difference in tip colors on Hornady bullets is nothing more than lot variance. Hornady has been real bad about that. The old Amaxes used to have much larger tips and much higher BC's, they just changed everything without telling anyone. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 08:16:11 (ZULU)

Travis,

You DO mean INTERBOND? Correct? As I am writing this I am looking at a box of Hornady Custom Loads #8098 .308Win 165gr BTSP INTERLOCK ....And they are not a balistic tip....

Are you still willing to bet that box?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 08:33:04 (ZULU)

Travis,

Matthew 5:41 “And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

Yeah, when you just pay their bills or give them money ya tend to be facilitator more than anything else. We don't force the Word on 'em just lay it out there and let God do the work.

Out here.

Kent

Gooch
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 08:50:53 (ZULU)

Gooch,

It's been my experience that if you give a man a fish, he'll want a steak. Teach a man to fish, buy him a rod and reel, give him your old beater pickup and a decent boat, and he'll say it's too hot to fish.

It's pretty damn rewarding, though, when you give a kid a belt full of tools and a ride to work for a couple weeks, and he won't answer your calls-because he's working overtime!

Thanks for the quote.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 09:28:49 (ZULU)

Snatched from www.ksccw.com . Enjoy. Click my name for the link to the original.

My husband and I had been happily

married (most of the time)

for five years

but hadn't been blessed with a baby.

I decided to do some serious

praying and promised God

that if he would give us a child,

I would be a perfect mother,

love it with all my heart

and raise it with His word

as my guide.

God answered my prayers

and blessed us with a son.

The next year God blessed us

with another son.

The following year,

He blessed us with

yet another son.

The year after that we

were blessed with a daughter.

My husband thought we'd

been blessed right into poverty.

We now had four children,

and the oldest was only

four years old.

I learned never to ask God

for anything unless I meant it.

As a minister once told me,

"If you pray for rain,

make sure you carry an umbrella."

I began reading a few verses

of the Bible to the children

each day as they lay in their cribs.

I was off to a good start.

God had entrusted me

with four children and

I didn't want to disappoint Him.

I tried to be patient the day

the children smashed

two dozen eggs on

the kitchen floor searching

for baby chicks.

I tried to be understanding...

when they started a hotel for

homeless frogs in the spare bedroom, although it took me nearly two hours

to catch all twenty-three frogs.

When my daughter poured

ketchup all over herself and

rolled up in a blanket to see

how it felt to be a hot dog,

I tried to see the humor

rather than the mess.

In spite of changing over

twenty-five thousand diapers,

never eating a hot meal

and never sleeping for more

than thirty minutes at a time,

I still thank God daily for my children.

While I couldn't keep my promise

to be a perfect mother -

I didn't even come close...

I did keep my promise

to raise them in the Word of God.

I knew I was missing the mark

just a little when I told

my daughter we were going

to church to worship God,

and she wanted to bring

a bar of soap along to

"wash up" Jesus, too.

Something was lost

in the translation when

I explained that

God gave us everlasting life,

and my son thought it was

generous of God to give

us his "last wife."

My proudest moment came

during the children's

Christmas pageant.

My daughter was playing Mary,

two of my sons were shepherds

and my youngest son was a wise man.

This was their moment to shine.

My five-year-old shepherd

had practiced his line,

"We found the babe wrapped

in swaddling clothes."

But he was nervous and said,

"The baby was wrapped

in wrinkled clothes."

My four-year-old "Mary" said,

"That's not 'wrinkled clothes,' silly.

That's dirty, rotten clothes."

A wrestling match broke out

between Mary and the shepherd

and was stopped by an angel,

who bent her halo and lost

her left wing.

I slouched a little lower

in my seat when Mary

dropped the doll representing

Baby Jesus, and it bounced

down the aisle crying,

"Mama-mama."

Mary grabbed the doll,

wrapped it back up

and held it tightly as

the wise men arrived.

My other son stepped forward

wearing a bathrobe

and a paper crown,

knelt at the manger

and announced,

"We are the three wise men,

and we are bringing gifts

of gold,

common sense

and fur."

The congregation

dissolved into laughter,

and the pageant

got a standing ovation.

"I've never enjoyed a Christmas

program as much as this one,"

laughed the pastor,

wiping tears from his eyes.

"For the rest of my life,

I'll never hear the

Christmas story without

thinking of

gold,

common sense

and fur."

"My children are my pride

and my joy and my greatest

blessing," I said as I dug

through my purse for an aspirin.

Jesus had no servants,

yet they called Him Master.

Had no degree,

yet they called Him Teacher.

Had no medicines,

yet they called Him Healer.

Had no army,

yet kings feared Him.

He won no military battles,

yet He conquered the world.

He committed no crime,

yet they crucified Him.

He was buried in a tomb,

yet He lives today.

Feel honored

to serve such a Leader

who loves us.

If you believe in

God and in Jesus Christ His Son,

send this to all on your buddy list.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 11:46:14 (ZULU)

UnPat: Interlock SST are plastic tipped. Even my over-priced (but way freakin' cool) SST shotgun slugs are plastic-tipped! Now that is something---that big ol' red pointy thing looks angry as hell. There is a dark side of me that wishes I got a hold of some in Iraq--there is something I am curious about...

Anyway, yeah--QC might be it. I have a box of 165TAP and interlockSSTs with matching burnt-orange tips (and several other boxes of assorted red tipped stuff). I thought maybe that might mean the interlock SST is the good bullet that is in the cop-only TAP load (that workie so well in the lite tactical Howa). Oh, well.

Okay....I just went and came back from the end of my driveway (1/2mile roundtrip) for the school bus exchange...and the sunrise has lots of orange and pinks...and a purple to pink rainbow above the ridge to my north. Damnedest thing I've seen since the black-and-white "moon-bow" in Hawaii. I pointed it out to the bus driver just to make sure I am not seeing things.

The boy is on day three of a job. He works mornings, alternating 7a-3p, or 5a-12noon at a produce department/ grocery. He interviewed for another night gig at a video shop and a local gas/ market. A dose of real world is just what the doctor ordered to cure his high-schoolitis view of life. Heheh. He comes home acting all exhausted, and I crack the whip and keep him working. "You wanna pay me rent, or bank that check to get your own place? OK, so you have to earn your keep. Bring me five bales down from the loft and go get that shovel..." Oh...hahahaha.

The Nebraska shooter was another teen, and he used a rifle--not a handgun. If any lesson comes out of this one--it may well be that the CCW law was a day late in this case.

My buddy has a new 6.4L Ford diesel--complete with soot filters, catalytic converters, and magic burn-off systems to keep the exhaust cleared. Mine is the old unrestricted 7.3L. He drives like his granny trying to do something about the 16 MPG or less he is getting. I drive mine like I stole it (I love the sound of a spooled up turbo thru a 5" exhaust pipe) and pull 20 MPG on my bad days. If I squeeze it and streamline the bed, the truck gets 23 MPG. My bad against his good means he uses 41% more fuel to get the same distance. All in the name of "cleaner emmisions." I do not have the PPM data for his or mine---but I think that there is no benefit whatsoever in scrubbing the exhaust if you just make a shitload more of it to do the same work. I also have some preliminary data on straight fuel vs. ethenol additives (10%) that is showing that you will burn as much fossil fuel to go the same distance--only if you use 10% ethanol, you pay for 10% more fuel.

This environmental shit is hair-brained emtotions running rough-shod over reasoned, critical thought. Somebody with some decent test equipment oughta look into this effect.

Joe M
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 13:41:44 (ZULU)

I've met Ken M one time. I was impressed with his understated demeanor and depth of shooting related knowledge.

If he is investing time to research something, it's probably 'on mark' and very relevant. Let's hope he elects to share some of what he learns <that's a hint Ken>.

medicjim
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 14:40:20 (ZULU)

Ken M Joe's wright about the cut barrel AR's. If you cut the barrel without moving the gas block back towards the chamber "leave it where it is" after cutting the length the gas will throw the bolt back and eject the cartridges but it happens so fast that it won't pick up another reliably. In other words the time the gas is acting on the bolt assembly and holding it back lessens when the barrel is shortened towards the gas block because the bullet exits the barrrel in a shorter period of time letting the action come back foward before the magazine has time to push another cartridge up for the bolt to strip. If you open the hole up this will only make the bolt slam back harder and be rough on your action, not give it any extra time. If you know someone that can fill the gas hole in the barrel and then drill another then it would work. Possibly a closed adjustable gas block over the old hole or a gas block turned upside down to cover the hole might woirk to close it. If you can find someone to reliably weld one shut let me know, I have some work for them. My machinist and I spent about a month screwing around with one that was shortened 4 inches before giving up, and realizing what was actually happening when the rifle wouldn't feed reliably. Also if you get that problem worked out and another gas block installed, be careful to start smaller on the hole for the new gas block and enlarge it till it functions reliably. If you start too big you will be putting a lot of unneeded gas pressure on the bolt assembly due to it being closer to the explosion in the cartridge. As it slams back from the high pressure it could cause damage to the rifle. Maybe consult with one of the manufacturers about placement and size of the hole. They may have a formula that works.

Anyone want to buy an 18 inch fluted heavy stainless target barrel with an Umberger comp premanently attached for an AR that doesn't function reliably? LOL Works great as a .22 cal rifeled and chambered piece of pipe. Or if you want a single shot AR.

Ballistic tips= Hornady A-Max Hornady Interbond, Hornady Interlock Super Shock, Hornady V-Max, Nosler Accubond, Nosler Ballistic tip, Nosler Balistic Tip Varment, Sierra BlitzKing, Swift Scirocco and Scirocco 2, and some more. There is a Hornady Interlock that is not the Super Shock that is not tipped. This is just the MidwayUSA listings. There are also some "big factory" bullets called Combined Technologies made by one of these guys. The different pollimer tipped do seem to differ in the jackets and empty space behind the tip to cause more or less expansion and weight retention for varment to big game. The tip colors also differ with the same manufacturer to help differentiate between callibers. I'm talking colors not shades of the same color here. In my OPINION, I like the ,and have tried most of these that are named except for the varment bullets on deer. They all worked well. For me the Accubond just seemed to be a little higher quality.

This post has a lot of opinion and personal experience in it. Read it that way and know it is just that. I'm not claiming it to be 100% accurate.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 14:49:34 (ZULU)

Joe M I've got the 2004 F250 Cut the exhaust in front of the converter and behind the muffler and replaced it with a piece of straight pipe. It gave me 2MPG and as you said the turbo can now be heard through the pipe. It does sound cool doesn't it. I've als got the Bully Dog Tripple Power Pup. THAT is cool. It'll hang with a Mustang GT now. That is also cool. The power Pup also lets you remove the speed limiter. You get really strange looks when you hand with Vettes at around 145 according to the GPS. Only gets 16 MPG though.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 15:20:17 (ZULU)

"Only gets 16 mpg, though."

.....so? It's fast and loud, ain't it?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 16:00:24 (ZULU)

Travis, no--mine is faster. But I also benefit from unresticted exhaust and better tuning/ intake. Mine is not set to be fast--I am more interested in efficiency of the design which is found roughly at 65HP over stock. Now these newer model superduties do have something I want bad: A four-link coil suspension up front. The 99-01 (maybe later too) weakness, IMHO, is the front end design. leafs are OK, but will lash when worked hard; and the underhang of key steering ingredients below the front skid ensures breakage. I have the cancelled checks to prove it:)) Several companies offer conversions that are highly rated to fix this. They are also highly proud of these kits---pricey!!!

The dilemma is: Do I dump my squirreled funds into a fifty or do I make el-trucko more betterer?

Heheh, i oughta get a job if only to play harder.

MedicJim: I don't think I was being critical of the AR velocity to barrel comparison; maybe someone else was. But along with it--I am interested in the gas system tuning (bolt velocity, feeding, gas tube placement, length etc)--the link posted was, as usual, a bolt gun. Interesting...but not relevant to the AR situtaion:))

Go, Ken, Go!

Joe M
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 16:58:22 (ZULU)

Joe M - My last post wasn't directed at you. I was just trying to spare Ken the lecture on what has become internet common knowledge regarding short ARs and suppressors. I suspect he may have been the origin of some of that info... maybe five years back.

medicjim
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 17:05:12 (ZULU)

JoeM: click my name --- the first thing you need to take care of in that Ford truck. I do like the way they look, but get scared away when I hear all the power stroke stories....

Take care,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 17:17:52 (ZULU)

Joe Does your system allow you to adjust the power settings? Mine has different settings adjustable of the fly. I leave it set at economy/towing setting thinking that would be where I got the best economy untill I "need" to go fast. Have you found that the higher settings will give better economy? I haven't left mine on the higher settings long enough to check the milage. If you get better milage on higher settings I'll have to give it a try on mine. The only problem...keeping my foot out of it. Also, I've got the FX4 off road package, sounds great, but it pretty much only covers the gas tank. You'd think an "off road" package would cover some of the steering components, but nope. The front of the 04 still sucks, just like the earlier models. I don't know why Ford can't get steering and fornt suspension right. I haven't driven an 08, so maybe the have. Every Ford I've owned from 84-04 eventually got the famous ford steering slack. I let my brother, who owned a Honda Prelude Si4ws, drive my 86 F350 4WD Dully Crewcab one time with me in it with him. We were going to get a load of mulch on a divided HWY with big paved shoulders. He had a hard time keeping it on the pavement and had to pull over and let me drive. When you're used to it, it doesn't bother you. If not, you've got trouble. What type tires are you running. I went from Yokohamas to Buckshot radials and lost 2mpg and handeling went to crap as expected from past experience.

Just so that this relates to guns, I put them in the back seat of afore mentioned truck and use it to take them to the range. Also, does anyone know a smith with a 6mm-06 Springfield chamber reamer. I want to have my NEF .243 converted. Was thinking I could resize 25-06 brass. Tell me if I'm wrongabout this.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 17:55:50 (ZULU)

CDC'-Good link. Please keep them coming. BTW, were you thinking of performing a regression on the barrel length/speed data?

Ken Hunter - I think the idea is to replace a Power-Stroke with a Cummins... unless I missed something.

Barrel length vs. bullet speed - of course the data will be in a bolt action rifles. Unless you have a roller-delayed blow-back system (ala HK) you will have to tune the load and gas tube for proper functioning in an AR15. A bolt action rifle is 'open-loop', whereas a gas blow-back is 'closed-loop'. In a closed loop system, you can't just change one variable, and expect other parameters to hold their respective relationships.

Duman
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 18:01:06 (ZULU)

Ken H: The 6.0 had some glitches, and is down 1.3L while making more power than the stock 7.3--meaning it is tweaked harder---less durable no matter how you slice it. My 7.3L Powerstroke is perfect for me in all measures. It will out-pull a 5.9L cummings--and the tranny is better to boot. I like some of the new features on the later 6L and on the new 6.4s--but overall--I prefer the 7.3L and the lack of the new emmision standards on mine. I made the decision to continue to upgrade and miantain this one for as long as i can. This also keeps bankers out of it.

Jeff: The 65HP setting on the banks is moderate to low; it is the recommended towing tune--but it also lets me sink my right foot into it while just tooling around--and it kicks fuel economy right along! Seems to be the sweet spot for the 7.3s. It has a few radical tunings above that, but I don't want to have EGTs like the Kiowa on my truck! The magna-flow pipe and AFE stageII kits complete the set up. I do want a new impeller and bearings in the stock turbo housing (cheap way to improve the durability and boost), a new TQ converter and deep pan, bullet-proof steering components with the relocator kit for the dampers, and an exhaust brake--to go along with that 4-link suspension kit (4 over). But i also want to win a lottery.

I'm running dunlops, a tad wider than the stock rubber. Initially lost 2 MPG with the flat-plate drag, but overcame that with the opening of the airflow. Wider works good on my fields--but takes away a bit on snow covered roads. Still, the monsterous weight and wheelbase of this beast makes it the most stable ride in my fleet in all conditions.

Joe M
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 18:36:11 (ZULU)

Dog crates-clear a space and put the crate in. The wife can pile stuff on top of the dog crate. BTDT.

6.? Powerstrokes- Ford has their own engine configuration, wiring harnass and engine management computer/program. Navistar furnishes the engines with the contracted configuration, Ford stuffs the engine in a chassis and plugs in the 'puter. Duuno about the 6 liter programs, but the 7.3 liter Ford programs sacrificed torque for a wider range of engine speed. Haven't read any service bulletins about fires in IH trucks.......Gee, wonder where the problem is?

Somehow, burning the soot doesn't seem ecologically sound to me. I'm gonna keep our 7.3 going until it dies. I figure my DT466 will outlive me.

Dunno about Powerstroke vs Cummins, but Ford is being sued for technological/intellectual property theft over a diesel they're trying to build themselves.

WR Moore
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 19:11:02 (ZULU)

Actually, pursuing the line of thinking that shortening the barrel is affecting bolt timing, you would have to think that the longer bbl in downstream of the gas port would hold pressure up and keep the bolt open longer. Not necessarily. Once the gas hits that bolt piston, it matters not how much more bbl is downstream from the gas port(to a point, you can't cut it 10mm in front of the hole). The first gas pressure starts the carrier backward, unlocking the bolt, then starting the extraction/ejection process. However, once the carrier key starts sliding away from the gas tube, everything else is accomplished by momentum. The gas immediately starts venting into the upper housing. DPMS has a shorty that they make by cutting the bbl and keeping the gas block under the handguard. Granted, it's not a 10" shorty, but it's short enuff. The real short ones suffer from too MUCH pressure, ripping off case heads and leaving the operator with a jammed rifle, or banging the brass so hard it ricochets back into the bolt path and crams everything up. If you're having extraction problems with a short bbl, look into one of the pigtail gas tubes that wrap around the bbl to legnthen it and allow the temp/pressure to cool, or reduce the port size.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 19:43:15 (ZULU)

I am aware of the difficulties of running variable length barrels and the Stoner gas system; that is partially why I wanted some method of eliminating the variables associated with different barrels when measuring velocities. All the guns I have run properly, although I'm not a big proponent of the ubershorties except for limited specific situations.

WRT gas port placement, the manufacturers have what works for them and it was arrived at via "cut and try" methods. IOW, we have to put the port here due to the length of the gas system we already have, start with port diameter of X and open it up until she runs right.

If Jim was impressed with my understated demeanor, I believe I must have had more to drink than I thought;)

BTW, thank you Jim, I will probably be back in your neck of the woods before June visiting that same guy and his new wife, I'll try to bring a rifle and get together.

The new ULSD engines are so-so, this '07 emissions crap is going to push Cat outta the on road truck market, according to their service reps. That said, the emmissions crap does work, the question is whether it's an improvement that is worth the expenditure. In some cities, the exhaust of an '07 is actually cleaner than the intake air WRT particulate matter. And for this you're paying $5-10k premium over a similar non-emmisions engine and I suspect that is a subsidized price to avoid totally killing sales. 2010 is supposed to be much worse, with the damned computer shutting down the entire truck if the emmisions crap goes wonky.

Lots of folks are looking real hard at "glider kits" which is buying a new frame and putting your own (pre-bullshit) motor in it. A nice early pre-07 C15/C16 Cat at 600HP is the way to go, for a class 8 truck. The light stuff I don't follow much. We have Duramax GM's which work good so far, Navistar DT466's which are good also, and an old 5.9 Cummins which is a dog for power but just won't die. The new Paccar badged Cummins diesels seem to work OK.

The law of unintended consequences is going to FUBAR this emmisions crap, just like always. The incity P&D guys(where the perceived problem is) will just run their old crap longer and longer and the problem will be just as bad, if not worse. The OTR guys are not, and never were, the problem. Hell, just introducing this ULSD fuel would have probably done the job WRT urban emmisions, but that's the problem when you have a technically ignorant governing body making law. In all of Congress and their bloated staffs, I doubt you have more than a dozen, if that many, people who have worked on a truck or even driven one.

Quite often, higher output motors deliver better fuel mileage IME. They push more air through the motor and at part throttle this results in a leaner mixture(and corresponding better charge agitiation in the combustion chamber) IMO. Dodge discovered in the 50's that IC engines work most efficiently at/near WOT, so brisk acceleration to cruise speed is actually the most efficient profile IME. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 19:55:11 (ZULU)

re: AR gas taps

I've seen aftermarket gas systems that stretch out or constrict the gas tube length as a way of addressing the timing/pressure issue.

Here are some examples:

http://www.ar15.com/content/products/accessories/gasTube/

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1591&title=AR-15/M16%20PIGTAIL%20GAS%20TUBE

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=9947&title=AR-15/M16%20REGULATED%20GAS%20TUBE

I don't know if they work as advertised.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 23:35:02 (ZULU)

Duman: "BTW, were you thinking of performing a regression on the barrel length/speed data?"

Yeah. I'll use SAS.

CDC'
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 23:39:43 (ZULU)

Ken, when you come to NJ, don't worry about lugging a rifle. I've got several. I also have a .223 build planned which means I'll be picking up a Rem SPS for the donor action. You weren't clear on what testing you plan to do...if it involves 223, send me the test criteria and I'll get out the chrony and hacksaw

medicjim
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 01:21:05 (ZULU)

Ford Engine Problems

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22130914/?GT1=10645

Duman
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 01:31:41 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Damn,forgot about the SST....

AR Shorty's...DPMS also offers a Tungston Buffer,for slowing the action down.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 04:39:33 (ZULU)

mj, KenM: "...send me the test criteria and I'll get out the chrony and hacksaw..."

That would be a good way to eliminate a lot of nuisance variables. It seems like the barrel should be crowned. No?

CDC'
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 11:04:31 (ZULU)

Completely off topic....

Ya - was kind of deviling JoeM about replacing the power stroke with a cummins... On a serious note - I'm told that the Fords with the International engines are pretty good.

KenM: I often wondered why Ford hasn't gotten with Cat and arrange for one of their light truck sized 6/8 cylinder run/work forever engines for the Ford truck line. Cat/Cummins has gazillions of miles on highwys and gazillions of hours in jobsites, etc.....

Also - Bushmaster purchased Cobb Manufacturing. They'll be branding the Cobb line with the Bushmaster logo and picking up their 30'06, 338LM, .50 Cal, etc AR type rifles....

take care all...

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 12:30:49 (ZULU)

Duman,

Thanks! I hadn't heard that one. I doubt that engine failure would wreck me--especially out here in the boonies; but it would be inconvenient as hell. Especially since I have three car seats, usually filled, in this truck. My local Ford dealer is one of the businesses that I "worked" when I came out here for that recruiting gig--and we stayed on good terms.

Ken H: As with anything, there are good and bad points. The 7.3L is the "devil I know"--and that makes it my favorite. I looked at the gas vs. diesel thing, and decided that on a big towing platform there is only one way to go. Then I looked at the choices: Dodge had more "issues" reported and less power overall; duramx is overpriced and the HD suspension is too road-oriented, and Ford shook out between these with power to spare. Moving to a superduty from a series of 1/2 ton pick-ups (still have two) meant that everything I was used to would be trumped by the bigger 3/4 ton--and as such, I would be impressed with this new truck. I think this would easily be the case if the dodge or the chevy sat in my driveway now. And, had I got one of those "monday trucks"--I may have dumped the brand altogether by now. This particular truck is a peach. If I drive the wheels off it--I will put them back on to do it again!

Joe M
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 13:54:32 (ZULU)

I'm with you Joe. Had I gotten one of the others I probably would have been happy, but, I'm glad I got this. I'd been driving 1/2 tons for 8 years. I had been happy with my old 3/4 and 1 ton's. I almost bought a new one, but when I recocered from the King Ranch sticker shock, I spent two months looking for "This truck at this price" I bought it a year old with 28k miles for $22K. It's loaded with everything but the King Ranch leather, wheels, and emblems. I got a friend that want's to swap me his K/R wheels due to the higher tire prices and I'm considering it cause I'm running 36's and am wondering if a little less sidewall would take a little play out of the suspension "as an overall package" and steering feel.

Ken back before the power stroke ford still had GM beat but that Cummins turbo kicked but in pickup and with better milage. I had a friend with one. I could tow more, but he left me sitting in black smoke in the redlight to redlight. Thinking back, "Damn I used to be an even bigger redneck". At least I finally got out of the habbit of having the "Confederate Flag and gun rack" in the window, when they started stealing the guns. Now it's Harley Davidson but I still listen to a little Hank. HAHA CSA=Confederate Snipers of America

Disclaimer: This post is totally opinion and is not based on any actual facts. If you're offended, quit being a Yankee. LOL Taking cover now!!! Damn, where's Ol Sarge when you need him for some good SERE tactics!!!

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 14:59:31 (ZULU)

That recall Duman is talking about has been a well known thorn in the side of Powerstroke owners for years. I own a 99 7.3 diesel and have had relatively good luck with my truck. There are others that have had nothing but hell with theirs. There are lots of people that carry a spare CPS, camshaft position sensor, in the truck in case it dies along side the road, or in the woods. All it takes is a 10 MM wrench, if I remember right, to change one out.

Joe, this site, thedieselstop.com is a great place for info on your truck. I'd never replaced a clutch in anything and had mine go out several years ago. I printed out a step by step manual that someone had gone to the trouble to post, and had no trouble what so ever changing the clutch out. It was so detailed that it told me that I'd need so and so size wrench here, and a universal joint extension there. You can ask questions, and search years of data bases for whatever trouble you may encounter as well.

On another note, what's the best chronograph on the market right now? I have an Oehler 35P, but need another one as well. What I'm wanting to do, or my dad is rather, is to get both muzzle and downrange velocities at the same time.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 15:29:23 (ZULU)

Tony- there is a clearance specification that has to be set on the CPS on installation. Failure to do so may be helping out on additional failures. BTW- International built the 7.3 as the T444E engine. You can get most all the parts from International at 40-60% less than you'll spend at Ford. There are some parts sold only to Ford because they're specific to the Ford engine. Ask me about the wiring harnass sometime:((((((

One of the biggest problems I've observed with all the light truck diesels is folks who buy one and never read the directions on operation and maintenance. [Oil ain't necessarily diesel spec oil as one example.] Then they B&M about poor performance. Jack-leg mechanics are another source of problems.

KenM-believe you are very right on emissions crap. I look at what my electronic engine has cost in repairs in contrast to the mechanical engine and scream. BTW, I thought emissions specs (year of frame determines emissions requirements) doomed the glider kit? If wrong, please advise.

KenH-I do believe the 3208 Cat has a severe weight penalty WRT light trucks. Ford also wanted a wider engine operating range than (I think) Cat could/would provide-too cheap to install different trannys. Then there's emissions crap and factory capacity.

WR Moore
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 17:14:32 (ZULU)

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq66-1.htm

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 18:31:09 (ZULU)

WR, I'm not sure what you mean about a clearance spec. The one I replaced has no way to check any clearance. You uplug the wire, take the bolt out of the hold down clip, wiggle it until you can pull the sensor out, which may or may not kick your ass. Reverse the process. The sensor has, if I remember right, a slot in the plastic housing that lets it slid into the hold down clip. There wasn't any way to adjust clearance.

I don't remember anyone ever talking about a clearance spec when changing out a CPS, and it was talked about ALOT.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 20:25:36 (ZULU)

WR Moore, IIRC, glider kits are legit since it's not the factory building/registering them. Here's one for sale

http://www.cecilwilson.com/Trucks/2007PeteRotator.htm

It's not the solution for the large fleet, but for O/O's and small businesses, it beats Hell outta having a truck down for stupid reasons ie emmisions crap being broken. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 20:40:46 (ZULU)

With all the problems the new generations of diesel engines with EFI seem to be having, my 14 year old Cummins 5.9 with mechanical injection seems to be looking better and better. A friend says there's a big market for those engines - they keep getting rebuilt and dropped into newer platforms.

Mine only has 187,000 miles, with the Getrag 5 speed tranny and the original clutch.

Look like it might be around for a while.

The 2008 Ford Superduty with the V10 Triton tows the trailer up to Colorado for the summer. Cold nights where we spend the summer mean hard starts on a diesel, it's much quieter, and I don't much care what the gasoline costs.

But the old Dodge just keeps on ticking. It's about to need paint - maybe I ought to do a digital camo job on it...

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 22:39:15 (ZULU)

Tony-never messed with mine, but I have the factory manual. There's (IIRC) supposed to be a 0.010" clearance between the sensor tip and whatever on the camshaft triggers the sensor. The manual stresses the importance of the clearance-probably to keep from breaking the sensor.

The IH manuals on the engines are the way to go. My younger boy is a truck mechanic for one of the Northern Virginia counties and he has occasionally borrowed my manuals. Says they're way better than the Ford manuals.

WR Moore
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 22:51:32 (ZULU)

WR, does your manual tell you how to adjust the clearance, or for that matter, how do you measure it, since there's just the hole there when you pull the sensor out.

All everyone ever talked about was what I said above. Basically, take old one out, put new one in. There were several guys on that site who were diesel mechanics. I'm not questioning you or your son, just relating what was the accepted practice.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 00:27:36 (ZULU)

Lindy,

What about the 4 service hours for a plug change?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 02:32:27 (ZULU)

Travis: if you're talking about the Ford, it will have been traded before it needs the plugs changed.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 03:33:24 (ZULU)

Lindy,

I was talking about the V-10.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 04:09:12 (ZULU)

I was just sitting here, contemplating putting the heating pad on the big ole knots on my ribs that didn't heal right, while I was flipping through the channels. Happened upon the National Finals Rodeo. Why, exactly did I like riding bucking horses?

It didn't seems so violent and painful back then.

Well, better get some ammo loaded. Need to take the boy and my wife shooting in the morning.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 06:26:39 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

This oughta make your wife's model 77 a little more palatable.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 08:31:41 (ZULU)

mj & Ken M: If you perform an experiment by cutting down a barrel, sample at four lengths: Uncut, the shortest of interest and two fairly equally spaced in between. I'll need ACCURATE barrel length measurements. Keep any other factor that may effect bullet speed as constant as you reasonably can. Temperature, barometric pressure, cleanliness of barrel, ammo and ammo temperature jump to mind. If you only shoot at four lengths then ten shots at each length would be good.

CDC'
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 11:02:42 (ZULU)

In the news: The CIA destroyed video recordings of interrogations. It is suspected that the agency has - and intends to protect - secrets.

Shocking.

"Well, on second thought, let's not go to Camelot -- it is a silly place."_______Arthur from MP&THG

CDC'
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 11:50:37 (ZULU)

Tony-skimmed the electronics section of the manual just before I left for work. OK, the clearance (air gap) should be checked if there's erratic engine operation and on sensor change. Personally, if I was changing CMP sensors frequently, the check would be cheap insurance against an assembler in Indiana having a bad day on initial installation. The procedure takes up about 2 pages in the manual, but one is the worksheet to calculate clearance. What appears below is a grossly abreviated version, not to be used to perform actual measurements. Should take about 1 hour.

Now then, air gap between sensor tip and the trigger wheel teeth is nominally 0.026" with a variance not to exceed 0.008" measured at 4 places around the trigger wheel. This is determined by measuring to the top of the teeth with a depth mike or a dial calipher used as a depth mike and subtracting the corresponding measurement from the CMP sensor. There is a shim kit (with the CMP sensor?) of 2 shims 0.010" used to get the sensor as close as possible to the desired clearance.

If you measure the depth to the trigger teeth once, it isn't gonna change. Verifying the new sensor will maintain the correct air gap would be duck soup on any later sensor change. Measure from the shoulder to the tip and subtract from the depth measurement. Shim if required.

There was also mention about how the trigger wheel is timed when assembled to the cam drive gear and should never be removed or engine timing goes out the window.

WR Moore
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 12:50:36 (ZULU)

Travis I know what you mean. Why in the HELL would anyone want to get on the top of a bull whose pissed off about having his nuts tied up and a sissy milk cow bell around his neck. I'm not sure what makes them madder the ball tying or the demoralization of the bell "kinda like forcing a biker to dress in drag,"HaHA but I did it for 6 years. I finally quit when I rode at a 3 in a day buck out. Made the short go "kinda wished I hadn't" and on the last ride made the buzzer, got hung up for one bounce too many, went to the back "his area" and when my hand did come loose on the next bounce got thrown about 15 feet in the air landing on my upper back and neck with you guessed it, my balance hand still behind me. It tore my rotator so bad that the doctors said I wouldn't be able to keep my shoulder in during the rides anymore even after surgery. I've had 3 for it. I went 4 months not even being able to lift my own arm. Whenever I had to move it, I had to lift it with my other hand. It just hung there. It tore muscles and my broke scapula where they were attached to lift my arm. After they grafted the broken piece of scapula back to the bottom of my scapula and more rehab visits I can now use it almost normally. I got 1K for the second place and another buckle. Thank god my wife had insurance at her work. Between that, the knee surgerys, and a bad accident while picking up a bail jumper. It's a wonder I'm alive or can move. I can, however, tell you with better accuracy than the local weather man, when it's going to rain or starts to get cold. Why did I do it? For the same reason I crop dust. I'm addicted to adrenaline. I would just about bet you are too. What do you do to get your fix now?

BTW Who won the bulls and the all around or will that be tonight or Sunday. Are Adreano M. and the rest of the "south of the border boys" still kicking our American butts?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 14:08:16 (ZULU)

I got an idea, let's have discussions on what we think the best sniper round could be. .308, 30-06, 300Winmag, maybe even one of the 7mm's or .338's. Let's say .338 or less no holds barred. This will all be opinions so no one get bent out of shape about it. I've never owned a 7mm of any type but some of the heavier ones have got some pretty high BC's and heavy for a 7MM is relatively lighter than heavy for .308 so they can be pushed faster. Everybody ring in and let's get some good Q&A&BS going. If you want to quote facts that's great cause we might use them if we come up with a good Sniper Country wildcat.. I know this bends rule 3, but it might be interesting what we come up with. And, like rule 4 notes, there's a lot of brains and experience in this place, lets let them out of the box for a good think tank exercise. For 2000 readers a day if it's good enough, chip in 4 bucks each, get it build and submit it to the DOD. We might even make the TV show "Future Weapons".

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 14:50:11 (ZULU)

Alright Jeff, I'll bite.

Are we talking pure and simply based on the rounds performance, BC and other data OR are we talking about all around mobility, Weight, size, the expense of feeding it and round availability...

Are we talking a weapon that reaches out at distance like 1500 yards or one that holds a tight group at 500 yards?

Come on, a little more ground rules before the mud starts to fly bro... BWG...

DISCLAIMER.

BWG... the following is purely my opinion based on information i've learned from the internet, experienced and discussions with ssmautt people...<wink>(attempt at a Boston accent)

If we are talking about max effective range, I would have to go with the .338 Lapmag(8.6x70mm)( BWG. You didn't see that coming did you Joe? BWG)

Since according to the information I have been able to gather, glean and learn, since sadly I haven't been able to take it out as far as I would like, is that the .338 LM can consistently deliver hits out to 1300 yards according to an article I read by Al Paulson. I can't find another article I am thinking of, but at one point in the not so distant past I read that the Sako TRG-42 was suppose to be able to deliver consistent shots on a 9 inch head plate out at 1500 yards. Since I can't find it to quote it... thats definitely HEARSAY BWG... but worth mentioning...

The .338 according to the charts that I found is suppose to nicely split the difference between the .50 and the .300 winmag where the round goes subsonic. Higher down-range velocity means less sensitivity to crosswinds and it also has a flat trajectory and with good equipment it will group NICELY. It is good for anti personnel yet has rounds that are heavy enough to be used in an anti material role. Unfortunately on the downside its expensive to feed.

Anyways gents, Hope y'all are having a good day, I am going to head back to lurking...

Later

Morgue

One last note... if we are talking about cost, availability, consistency and the ability to shoot all day I would probably just stick with the .308 / 7.62

Mourge
Overseas, - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:31:36 (ZULU)

Doc H: The .338 WM stock you repaired came in yesterday. That pin looks pretty sturdy. Thanks a bunch. I owe you one.

CDC'
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:42:30 (ZULU)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch,

My Lady is most definitely interested in 'reaching out there'.

So to start her off, I gave her a ru- ruuu- well, it's an M77 MkII chambered in .223. It has the heavy stainless factory barrel, which isn't bad for starting with. But it has the laminated varmint stock. I'm planning on ordering a McMillan A-5 stock for her. I figured I'd give her the order form for a Christmas present, and she'll just have to wait for it to come in.

Also, trying to save up the scratch for a couple of those IOR FFP scopes. This is so that we can each be using the same scope, and practice together.

She really loves to get out there and just spend the day at the range, and is working on the 'putting the guys to shame'. The goal for her is 1000 meters, and F-Class comps.

We are just trying to work with what we have at the moment, not really much extra to play with. Anyone notice anything she is missing right off the hop, or have any suggestions as to what I can do to help her out? Santa is planning on leaving her a Mildot Master in her stocking as well, as soon as I can track one down and get it here in time. Thank you Bruce!

Anyways, just thought I'd put this out there, and see where it goes. Thank you for your help, and Fire For Effect.

God Bless, and Stay Safe,

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:48:56 (ZULU)

Mourge and CDC, sorry about that. You both entered whilst I was typing. Like you, I was just trying to bring the topic back to the general area of the Title.

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:54:40 (ZULU)

Morgue: apparently the Ministry of Defense in Britain agrees with your choice of caliber, because they have placed an order with Accuracy International for 540 AI AWs in .338LM, to replace all of their 7.62s.

Nice chunk of change, that.

It's a pretty impressive cartridge - if you can afford to shoot it.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:56:02 (ZULU)

re: Sniper cartridges

Canadian Forces is fielding a .338 LM (8.6mm × 70mm Lapua) rifle system too.

C14 Timberwolf - PGW Defence Technologies Inc.,

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-rifle-c14-timberwolf.htm

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 16:18:28 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Sounds like the Teams are moving that direction as well. They are looking at a couple choices. Personally I hope they go with the TRG 42. Its probably going to be relatively long road till it gets implemented, but hey I can say I bought it before they started considering it. BWG

Morgue

Mourge
overseas, - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 16:21:50 (ZULU)

Another Finger Rant!

You might want to read the below first.

This is very typical of "Blue" Northeast areas. Our Flatwoods Range went through this some years ago, after a B&E of the store they had at one time in J'ville. They hardly got anything back from NYC (where the guns were recovered).

It is common knowledge that most street level cops are pro Second Amendment, but Chiefs and Commissioners seem to go to the other side. Every year I have to remind folks that the IACP does not speak for the entire LE community.

Remember when we were first getting concealed carry permits in NC? There were Chiefs and Sheriffs having their officers out at protests against the legislation that would ensure "Blood in the Streets" in NC. Course, most of them were over in the center "Blue" section of NC. I don't think there has been yet a problem with any CCP holder in the state. I would like to know if there has been.

Now, the stop and frisk thing would not be a problem in NC. Any CCP holder is required to inform a Law Enforcement Officer that they are carrying if approached by them. It is a violation of the law not to.

As all cops know, all that is required of a "Stop and Frisk" ("Terry" Search) is reasonable suspicion, which is much less than Probable Cause, (what is required for an arrest). The Courts have been very generous to LEOs with "Terry Searches" because of the danger involved with close contact with suspicious persons.

In other words, IMO, this Mayor in PA is just making noise about a nonexistent problem. Such is the world of politics. If they "Stop and Frisk" folks without R/S will the courts uphold the stop as reasonable? Could be interesting.

S/F

Finger

Gun suit vs. U. Darby will cause ripples (PA)

Philadelphia Daily News ^ | Dec. 6, 2007 | WILLIAM BENDER

benderw@phillynews.com 215-854-5255

Delaware County attorney C. Scott Shields says Mayor-elect Michael Nutter's "stop-and-frisk" proposal for getting illegal guns off Philadelphia's streets is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Shields, the mayor of Rutledge Borough, plans to sue the city himself if Nutter implements the policy – just as soon as he gets done suing Upper Darby Township for what you might call its "take-and-keep" approach to gun control.

Shields is representing township resident Mary Welsch, who claims in a federal lawsuit before U.S. District Judge Juan R. Sanchez that police illegally took her deceased father's guns from her house, then refused to return them without a court order.

The township has agreed to give the 16 guns back to Welsch, her father's sole beneficiary, but she is pushing ahead with the civil rights suit in an attempt to have the department's gun-seizure policy declared unconstitutional.

If there is a ruling in the case, it could potentially set a precedent that impacts Philadelphia's ability to seize guns in certain situations, said Temple Law School professor David Kairys.

The lawsuit, filed in October, stems from an incident last summer, during which Upper Darby police cleared Welsch's Dennison Avenue home of firearms after her father shot himself to death with a revolver.

But, the suit states, police later refused to return the guns even though the death was ruled a suicide the next morning and the investigation was closed.

Ray Britt, a retired Upper Darby detective who served on the force from 1996 to 2004, said yesterday that uniformed cops were routinely instructed to seize legally owned guns when they responded to domestic disputes.

When the owners came to the station to get their guns back, Britt said, police typically told them that they needed to hire an attorney and get a court order. Some of those firearms were later resold to local gun shops, he said.

Police Superintendent Michael Chitwood Sr. said yesterday that his department will not return seized firearms without a court order or his personal approval. Those that aren't returned to the owners are destroyed.

The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the state attorney general's office are investigating aspects of the township's policy.

Those investigations are focused on activity that apparently predated Chitwood's arrival in 2005.

Upper Darby no longer resells guns to dealers. But its policy of confiscating firearms – sometimes solely for safety reasons – then requiring a court order before returning them could leave the township open to lawsuits from legal gun owners, said Widener Law School professor Wesley Oliver.

"It's very clear to me that her constitutional rights have been violated," Oliver said of Welsch.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, USA - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 17:47:51 (ZULU)

Someone in Pennsylvania needs to go back to law school. There's already case law in Pennsylvania that firearms are real property of the owner and to be returned to same-if they can be identified- after disposition of any court case.

WR Moore
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 22:59:07 (ZULU)

CDC,

Glad I could help. Hope it holds together.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 23:05:26 (ZULU)

Better than a Police Scaner !

http://www.globalincidentmap.com/home.php

Regards,

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 23:08:49 (ZULU)

Serious winter gear question:

Are there thermal advantages to wearing (say) something like large goggles when walking into the wind / blowing snow in addition to the balaclava that I'm already wearing?

I usually wear corrective glasses but for on-foot commuting I could trade them for goggles if necessary.

The Oakley L-Frame goggles are supposed to be usable with prescription glasses. $35 from Cabelas

Thanks

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 00:52:30 (ZULU)

JEff,

You're definitely talking out of your ass on this one. We don't do anything to their nuts. The flank rope is well forward of their nuts. Keep in mind, one straw of semen from and NFR bull will go for over $3500! Nobody wants to endanger their nuts, or their health. Quit listening to bunny huggers. They don't know shit about livestock.

The bulls don't really care what you think of them, and the bell goes on the bottom of the bull rope. It's there for weight, to drag the rope off the bull at the end of the ride. In this day and age, it's more for tradition, than anything.

Only caught parts of last night's performance., So i'm not sure what the standings are. I'd like to see Jesse Bail win the bullriding and saddle bronc titles. Hell of a nice guy. I met him at the grocery store in Show Low, Az., back when he was living in Bellybutton, Az.. Hell of a nice guy.

I do recall seeing Royce Ford at the top of the bareback standings, though I'm not so thrilled about it. He's a prick. When I was at the Mountain state Circuit Finals in Cheyenne one year, he got drunk and started lipping off to people, so they locked him out of the motel room-NAKED. Well, they DID give him his hat.

It's wierd, not seeing Joe Beaver roping this year. Seems odd, having him as a commentator. I hope Adriano does well. Hell of a nice guy. I met him at Dodge City days back in '94 or so.

Lindy,

Who ya gotta blow to get ahold of the 7.62's they're replacing?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 01:25:43 (ZULU)

Travis: no idea what they're gonna do with all those L96s. They'll probably keep some of them for training - that's what the U.S. Army is doing with some of the M24s.

It'd be nice to get hold of some. My boss has one with 90,000+ rounds through it, almost all of which he shot - which probably has something to do with why he shoots pretty good. I think it's on its ninth barrel. Might be tenth. They shoot good for a long time, and a new barrel costs very little.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 02:19:12 (ZULU)

Cdn Forces is keeping their 7.62 Nato bolt guns for trng, which will reduce the wear on the 8.6x70 rifles. Probably also reduce the recoil fatigue on their snipers too :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 02:22:18 (ZULU)

Bull riding must be one of those activities that started out with, "Hey, dude, hold my beer while I try something...."

For those of you with experience with 338-LM, would you recommend the TRG-42 or the AI? and why?

Duman
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 03:21:47 (ZULU)

RE: 338-LM

Duman,I have a TRG-42 bought it a few years ago, and I wouldn't trade it for any other 338-LM out there. I would think about changing the stock for the factory folding stock that is out there. Wish I had known about it when I bought it originally but I wouldn't trade the gun. That doesn't mean that I won't pick up another one at some point, For instance I am thinking about picking up a surgeon receiver, a good barrel and custom stock... its not high on the priority list, but its on there somewhere...

Personally I like the fact that the TRG is customizable with an allen key and you are able to purchase spacers to adjust the cheek weld. You can adjust the trigger pull to feather light for bench or add some to the pull with a couple twists of the allen wrench. The butt of the stock can be adjusted 15 degrees either way I believe, and it can be slid up or down to make it a more comfortable fit.

I have heard good things about both the AI and TRG from others who have used both and what I think it really comes down to which one fits you best. I don't think You can't really go wrong with either one. IMHO

Morgue

mourge
overseas, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 03:39:50 (ZULU)

Duman, there's a pretty good article in, I think last months, Combat Arms, comparing the TRG, and AI .338's. Basically like Morgue says, it comes down to whatever you like.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 05:13:08 (ZULU)

If you have a couple of minutes, it is interesting to go to youtube and put the words Muslums Report Duty! in the search box. Listening to it is worthwhile and clicking around in the associated links is well worth the time. Email the link to a Lib.

Anybody who thinks that our problems end when Bush leaves office is whistling past the grave yard. These people are willing to do what it takes to put your head on a plate.

CDC'
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 05:38:12 (ZULU)

Diesel country...yeah, a bit off topic; but isn't it freakin' amazing at the depth and breadth of knowledge this little bar has in its collective noggin?

Jeff: There is no perfect round for sniping. The 7.62x51 has its place from what Morgue said---it is prolific because it is prolific. The military will always gravitate to commonality. And, while you can juice up .30 cal to really get out there fast, the 308 is easy on barrels. Less wear and tear is yet another reason the 308 hasn't gone away yet. But as we all know, this round has its limitations. Your question was purely sniping (not target shooting)---and that has two flavors--LE and mil. Mil will settle on two, maybe three calibers for target interdiction--and LE could have as many calibers as there are departments. Most follow where other tread--and that is the 308. But I've seen a couple of other choices over the years too. But in the end, when it comes to military operations, consideration has to be given to logistics. The 308 is on the low end of penetrating light armor for machine guns; it allows a slightly lighter over all design and is easier on barrel life--al compromises, of course. But, because we are invested so heavily in 308 brass, it follows that this cartridge would be "improved" a bit for our sniper systems. Sure--there are better choices in any given environment, but as long as LC is cranking out these hulls--so to will be topping them with SMKs and chambering our accurized sticks for it.

Right now, we go from 308 to 50 cal. Our M24s are LA recivers in case we ever wanted to rebuild to 300WM; but with folks eying the 338 as the "in-between" choice--the 300 is idled (basically since 88 or so:)) Anyway, the tail literally wags this dawg on the army side, and most (not all) LE follows suit due to all the development that went with the army's choice.

Now, if long range target interdiction/ paper punching is the question, for individuals with no regard to cost or availability--that opens up a whole big huge can o' worms.

I'd put my vote in for the .260 rem. I like it, sort of a souped up, heavier hitting varmit round that I can watch thru my scope.

Ruger M77: Long gone. She now has a GAP (SCLE), a winnie, a Tikka and a brace of Vaqueros with a Uberti '73 replichester. She had the rugggg before she met me. I cured her of that problem:))

Sean: I dunno what twist the ruger 223 has--but if it isn't 1:8 or faster, she will have a hard time getting out to 1000 with it. You need to use the 75s minimum, 77s or 80s to get there. The longer heavies need to be spun fast! Still, it is a good starter--minuscule recoil, and a fairly accurate round to 500yds with a 1:9 (usual twist rate). It will get her going without wearing her out. Once she has mastered this, you might want to consider looking for a used varmit rig in 308, and have that rebarreled to 260 or 243 (if recoil bothers her). Either will do better at a thou than 223---AMU records notwithstanding:))

And, I'd be interested in hearing what others think of putting a buger, err, I mean ruger into a Mcstock; I know what I think, and to put it kindly--it is a waste of a nice stock. You may want to see what kind of groups this thing can provide before going there...

Joe M
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 05:43:37 (ZULU)

Joe M: McStock on a Ruger is throwing good money after bad.

CDC'
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 05:58:00 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

I've liked the 77 since I first held one, but I'm no expert at all. I'm still a preschooler, as far as shooting goes.

In your opinion, is there anything about the 77 that is better than a model 70 or 700? I've pretty much decided my next bolt gun will be a model 70 or 700, mostly due to parts availability and smiths that really know how to make them shoot.

I'm kinda leaning towards the 700, so I can modify it for detachable mags.

Everyone else that knows, feel free to pile on.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 06:01:55 (ZULU)

Any of you tried www.shootersproshop.com ? (CLICK) Pretty good site. I like the "seconds" section. Here in Kansas, I don't exactly have to take a 700 yard shot to kill a deer. Nothin' wrong with second quality bullets at 200 yards. I don't care if the tip is dinged on some of them. Good way to try premium bullets at a good price-for under $10 a box.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 07:30:43 (ZULU)

You guys were up pretty late. When does this bar close?

Travis, WRT Ruger, it's a rifle that will (almost) always go 'bang'. As far as accurizing, upgrading with McStocks, etc., it's a dead horse that's been tenderized repeatedly. But, that's one thing we do well.... beat dead horses.

Bartender! 'nother round!

Duman
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 12:07:41 (ZULU)

The M24 is history. The Army sniper rifle is now the SM110/SR25/Mk 12 SASS, or whatever they are calling it today. Still lots of M24s around, and that's what you'll see if you go to sniper school, but that's not what you'll deploy with.

What we see with special ops teams is a mixture of those with some Mk 13 Mod 2 or Mk 13 Mod 5.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 12:41:36 (ZULU)

re: Ruger 77, action choices:

I have to agree wih Duman. I got a Ruger 77 MKII in .308 Win to shoot sub-MOA several years ago, but there are easier ways to go. Replacement brl, replacement trigger, bedding were the major upgrade elements. I couldn't readily use it for long range because at the time there were no mounting solutions available to create a 20MOA elevation offset for the optics and the Ruger integral ring bases. (There are today). Aftermarket parts and gunsmithing knowledge points at other answers like the Model 700, Win 70 or the Savage 10 (Stevens 200).

My current longrange stick (F class) is a customized Savage 110.

I'm presently advising a friend who wants to build a long range stick to start with a Stevens 200 in .308 Win. Probably upgrade w/aftermarket trigger and rework/replace the stock. That still leaves lots of money to get a decent mount and optics. If he later wants to rebarrel to match-grade or say a .260 it will be as simple as it gets for a fixed-barrel bolt gun.

Stevens 200 in .308 Win sugg retail is $US336.

http://www.savagearms.com/stevens200_pressrelease.htm

Stevens, a registered trademark of Savage Sports Corporation, introduces the new Stevens Model 200. The new Model 200 carries the spirit of fine workmanship and honest value and is designed to meet the requirements of hunters and sportsmen who are particular about their equipment and insist upon the best value available.

Featuring a dual pillar bedded, gray synthetic stock, with a button rifled free-floating barrel, the Stevens Model 200 is the best value in a bolt-action rifle. Offered in a variety of calibers, in short or long action, it's the perfect rifle at a reasonable price.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 13:27:08 (ZULU)

pre-amble - My post is meant to stimulate some discussion...

Lindy wrote - "The M24 is history. The Army sniper rifle is now the SM110/SR25/Mk 12 SASS, or whatever they are calling it today."

Does it strike anyone else that the above switch to a gas gun marks a transition from the 'silent stalker, one shot - one kill sort of psyops /recon role' to more of a designated shooter as an asset supporting some manner of combat arms force?....

In short...do we see snipers being retasked as designated marksmen due to the need presented in current ops? What happens to the perishable skills associated with the 'scout sniper' role with the overt switch? Would it make more sense to broaden scope and train / equip for both missions? Are the forces selecting a .338 Lapua arm perhaps making a more well rounded decision on force structure (retaining already fielded M16 20" as DMR)?

medicjim
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 14:17:11 (ZULU)

Jim: "Designated Marksman" is a term which primarily applies to a precision shooter in an infantry squad.

Snipers can certainly do the tasks associated with that position, but the reverse is not true.

After a sniper has mastered the fundamentals, a bit of additional training in using the scope reticle for holdovers/holdunders is all that is necessary to fight effectively with a precision rifle at shorter distances against multiple targets at multiple distances.

The sniper's traditional role in deep insertions to gather intelligence has been de-emphasized by UAVs both large and small, as well as other airborne and space reconnaisance assets.

Going to a larger caliber like the .338 LM is not only useful for longer shots, but also barrier penetration in urban areas even at relatively short distances.

In urban areas, you may see 4 man teams of a spotter with a semi-auto, a shooter with a larger caliber - .300WM or .338LM - and a couple of guys with M4/203s or maybe a SAW for security.

I would say that the sniper's role has expanded.

The requirement for precision fire, though, remains - as targets at relatively short distances are likely to be small areas of an enemy behind cover or concealment.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 14:49:49 (ZULU)

RE: medicJim

Disclaimer... BWG... we called this a bar right?

Bro, IMHO the reason for the switch from a bolt gun to a semi auto rifle isn't because we are switching from a sniper role to a more designated marksmen type role but is because we are getting extremely good precision out of the semi autos that was once thought only to be found in a bolt rifle. this trend means that we aren't losing anything really but we are gaining the ability to make faster follow up shots and engage multiple targets in a shorter amount of time. This has been proven several times in engagements in the Box. I know of more than a couple times where Positions were getting rushed and the boys were able to send accurate overwhelming fire into the opposition and drive them back while sustaining no injuries to our boys... this wouldn't have been as easy if they had been armed with bolt weapons. IMHO...

I heard that a couple years ago the team that took the army marksmanship competition was running the SR25... they won... not solely on accuracy but on the ability to rapidly engage the targets in such a manor as to clean the course in a record setting time... then they added in the penalty shots... and they still won...

Anyways gents, there is a time and a place for a bolt gun just like there is a time and a place for a semi automatic gas gun... it comes down to what you are about to place in your crosshairs... maybe its because I like the ability to rapidly change magazines while sending rounds down range, or maybe its because I just like having a semi auto gas gun that epitomizes a accurate long distance precision rifle...

IMHO it can be simplified down to what you were trained on or raised on really is going to be what you prefer. I learned on iron sights but I have always liked the ability to choose exactly where I am placing my shot. Hence once I was able to buy glass for my rifle...

Gents... its getting late out here... so I am going to get back to lurking... and sleeping BWG...

Later gents...

Morgue

Mourge
overseas, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:10:25 (ZULU)

I meant to dig a bit deeper...I'll be more specific on a few points Lindy brought up...

If the sniper is playing the DMR role in most of his assigments over a period of time...what's to keep the unit commander from becoming accustomed to using snipers in ONLY this manner? What effect does this have on the organic DMR role...does that role get re-absorbed? Does this reduce the benefit / responsiveness to the squad?

Does it make sense to de-emphasize 'deep penetration / HUMINT' capabilities because we appear to have an ELINT alternative in many (not all) cases? What happens to the perishable skills? What happens when the enemy adapts and foils the ELINT asset on a broad scale?

Is the US military purchasing a .338 asset in the volumes that might be required for future mission taskings? Will the shooters be proficient with the rifle if most of their time is spent behind the .308 gas gun? Will the optic chosen for the .338 be the best solution or will it be a compromise weighted dis-proportionately toward the gas gun solution?

Just a few... this can of worms is big and worth kicking around here on SC IMO

DMR - I'm using this term kinda fast and loose.. If the shooter is sending multiple rounds down range.........seeking to engage an enemy force potentially reacting to his fire rather than E&E... you get the idea.

medicjim
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:12:16 (ZULU)

RE: medicJim

It was my experience when I was in the box last deployment that the people in charge didn't understand what a snipers role was... near the end of my deployment they were using us as overwatch on the roads... which wouldn't have been a bad thing if they didn't continually run tanks and Helos over the road trying to scare off our targets... Talk about annoying... we almost got lit up by a tank because he didn't see our IR marker from where he was coming in from... talk about pucker factor... The IR buzz saw came out REALLY fast on that one...

in regard to optics... I know where I am we are moving to NFO across the board. Either the 3-15 or the 5.5 - 22 zero stop model... I think the goal is to get everything the same across the board as much as possible...

As to the 338 thing, trigger time is trigger time, as long as the snipers are getting enough time on the gun, and they are able to get out on the 338 enough to get both the come ups and a feel for the weapon then they should be ok. Where the problems occure is when people are sent to theater without having sighted in there weapons systems and have no idea how the weapons are zeroed. IMHO

Anyways catch you later...

Morgue

Mourge
overseas, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:39:59 (ZULU)

A traditional metric for an accuracy requirement for a sniper rifle is that it should be able to shoot at or less than one MOA under the worst possible conditions.

The semi-auto sniper rifles being supplied by KAC are not capable of doing that, in the aggregate. SOME of them will, some of the time. With the suppressor on, most of them will not.

I'm not basing that opinion on tests of rifles hand-picked by the manufacturer, or on rifles selected and tuned for competition teams, but on experience with literally hundreds of production rifles.

Perhaps that standard is obsolete - that's for others to decide.

I wouldn't hesitate to deploy with one if I knew that most of my shots would be on relatively exposed human targets inside 700 yards. But you have to keep them clean, too. The suppressor aggravates receiver fouling.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:45:56 (ZULU)

RE: lindy

Honestly bro, If I were going into the field expecting to take a shot out near or past 800y I would break out my winmag. It was my experience that most of the time we were setting up to take shots that were inside 500y. Part of that was that we would set up in multiple positions set in such a way as to be able to support one another.

later bro,

Morgue

Mourge
Overseas, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:56:40 (ZULU)

Travis calm down partner. I put the obligitory HaHA in there to let you know I was kidding about the nut tying and bells. Iike I say I rode the small circuits here in the south for 6 years.

Morgue According to Wikipedia "not totally reliable but somewhat, sometimes" AI and Lapua beat us to this exercise and came up with the .338. I got to cross checking some of the likst in the .338 definition and read some real spacy out there stuff about the Haack shaped bullets and progressive rate twist barrels. Made for some interesting reading right untill it got to the, geometry meets physics formulas then it gave me a headache HaHA. It does sound like a great round. I'm thinking about what about if we take one of the .338 necked down to .30's using custom bullets of some hard A/P type stuff, wrapped in copper so it'll take to the rifling yet keep it at or under 210 grains so it's even faster than the .338 yet gets the BC out of the roof for an even flatter trajectory? Maybe?

Joe I understand your logistics problem. It'd really suck to have a gun in the field and have no bullets for it but it sounds like they're gonna give the .338 LM a try so why not our SC wildcat. Also, were gonna shoot enemy, "sometimes I feel like targets are an enemy LOL" so let's lean that way, but if it'll hit paper it'll hit people and the smaller .260 might be great for LE that usually don't need to shoot that far. What is it that you like about the .260? What kind of ideas do you have to better it. on your other topic, the Reggur, burgger.... Rugger shoots well enough for the distances most people shoot. I assume it's not going to be your competition gun, but dress it like you like, even if it's only for the familar feel of the stock. I watched a friend's son grow up shooting one in 243. The kid is a damn good shot, and when the shooting environment was perfect "stable rest, animal not spooked" head shot does with us at 400yds. He wasn't paying for the ammo and litterally wore the barrel out in 3 years shooting and practice. His dad gave him another one in 300Winmag. He could have had his choice of any gun in the store, or at home in the full safe, but he loved his Rugger. He has to buy his own ammo now so he hasn't worn that one out yet.

Rod you're not the only one who likes them. Check this out http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/long-range-rig.php

Medicjim could it be the current situation in Iraq and other places were in with the "overwatch" type jobs the snipers are getting that's making the military lean that way. IMHO It seems to me from what I see in the media, including the web, that we've got our guys doing mostly rooftop/LE type stuff at the moment. I hope we don't totally get away from the traditional training and then have a different kind of war. I think we should keep the two S/S and DM seperate, and have both. It seems historicly, that every time we get ready for one type of conflict, the next one we get into is different. WW I= trenches, WW II= vast movement in differing types of terain. Korea=not sure but snipers were almost nonexistant, Vietnam=jungles and rice paddies/movement by chopper, Iraq=Urban/motorized

Morgue you beat me to the overwatch thing while I was posting, but you were there, so I guess what I've seen from outside was close.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:57:43 (ZULU)

Hey guys, at least I got you talking. And thank you, at the same time.

Please, let me be clearer. My Lady's rifle is a 1 in 12 twist. I know it ain't going to get out there all that good. But the point is, it is what she is starting with. Not just the long range aspect, but the whole aspect of shooting. This is her first rifle, and I'm doing what I can within my means, to get her into the habits and whatnot of shooting. Our range here through the winter is only 200 meters. During the summer, we have 1000. The long range shooting is HER GOAL. As we can afford, we shall improve equipment for her.

Whilst some think we are trying to make a silk purse, I'm only working on a modest poke, just to get her going. So far, she loves to shoot, and she loves her rifle. She's not interested in 'spray and pray' or anything like that. She really wants to 'reach out there well'.

This is only a starter system. Till we can get/build her a better one. I'm going to take a jack plane to the laminated stock, just to get a better profile. Also, shorten the pull.

What is the heaviest bullet that you think we can stabilize in the .223, with the 1 in 12? And my apologies for buying this thing, it was in the mid nineties, before I knew anything.

It sure is good to see the poster's here though. Wondering if any more 'plankowners' are going to come out of the woodwork before Christmas?

I'll shut up now, and God Bless,

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 23:52:57 (ZULU)

RE:338 LM

Jeff I've got a link here somewhere that discusses the history of the round, I will see if I can find it to add to the tail end of the post but the gist of what I remember is that the military tasked someone to develop a round that fit into the midrange, smaller than a 50 but big enough to fill an anti material role within certain constraints. What was developed during this program was the 338. Now I can't tell you why the program stutter stopped since that is a good bit before my time, but the impression that I am under is that after the program stalled it was either sold to or finished by Lapua which continued to develop it and put its name on the tail end of what was then a wildcat.

As to training, I don't for see training shifting from where its at and whats being taught, to a course that focuses on the snipers role being an Over watch style job. The beauty of the courses that are out there are that they are taught by Snipers who have spent time down range, who have seen the bumbling BS from the shooters side. People who have learned some mistakes the hard way and learned leasons from the mistakes of others. These people come back and instruct are most likely going to add points to ponder into the course, or even start and advanced course that deals with lessons learned from this job profile.

The reason that the snipers are being used in the overwatch position IMHO is that you have commanders who are scared to loose people in their zone and instead of doing other things to detour the Insurgents they just grab an asset that on the surface was trained for this job and put them out. In doing this they forget what the Snipers job is and in their own mind they have found a job that they understand and have now assigned to someone that previously they didn't have an F@$King clue how to use, and still don't.

BWG. Rant done.

I found the link I was talking about, and ironically its to the Lapuas home page.

http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=889

another link on the subject

http://www.custer.com.au/Lap/338magnumstory.php

Morgue out

Here is a link on the338LM from Al Paulson which deals specifically with the TRG-42.

http://www.canadiantactical.ca/PaulsonArticle2.html

Mourge
Overseas, - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 01:51:04 (ZULU)

.223 Rem and 1/12 twist barrel

Typically about the heaviest .224 dia projectile that will be properly stabilized in a 1 in 12 twist barrel in .223 Rem is 63g.

http://www.accuracyarms.com/Shelin_Twist.htm

Speer says their 62g FMJBT .224 projectile needs a 1 in 10 twist.

So you're probably limited to a 55g .224 Boattail projectile.

(boattail have better ballistic coefficient, critical for long-range trajectory).

For the sake of argument, let's pick a high ballistic coefficient 55g .224 projectile and launch it at a safe velocity for .223 Rem...

A high ballistic coefficient 55g .224 projectile is the Sierra Blitzking - stock #1455.

Sierra Quoted BC's:

.271 @ 3100 fps and above

.264 between 3100 and 2550 fps

.250 between 2550 and 2050 fps

.236 between 2050 and 1800 fps

.224 @ 1800 fps and below

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&stock_num=1455&bullettype=0

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

If the 55g BlitzKing is launched at 3240ft/sec, the calculated drops with a 100yd zero are:

yds MOA

--- ---

600 14.7

700 21.0

800 29.0

900 39.0

1000 51.0

How much elevation adjustment MOA do you have in your chosen optic?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 02:17:35 (ZULU)

Lindy (you know this already--but consider this just my 02 on the subject for the heck of it): The 110 is being fielded, but don't write the 24 off so quickly. The regular army might have to swap one for oneas they become available--but the units I served in from time to time tended to be pack rats. When the 24 first came along--we kept the M21/ 25s around for several valid reasons. But we also carried the 24 for particular missions--it all depended. My guess is that the 110's weight and the SR25s history, let's face it--they have a much bigger order to fill than ever before--and they muffed the small ones already--all this will keep those 24s on a short leash. SOCOM units will leep theirs, and probably go and buy new bolt guns just because.

One compromise position discussed at a damned high level (ops conference, chaired by army-3) was to have both 110s and 24s on hand, as the drive to the 110 is heavily influenced by Iraq, the siege mentality that set in during 2004/ 2005--and little else anywhere else.

If the 110s can get the same grad rates thru Rick's course, then maybe it has a chance. But as I see it (from just a little eyes-on history)--the change won't fully happen until it is beyond all doubts that it can happen. That is not yet certain.

If you doubt this--just look at all the M14/21/25s in Iraq and afghanistan today.

Oh damn....I just read your later post, Lindy....I think we see this the same. Oh well. Just when I was getting spun up:)) I'll leave it as is with a diclaimer on top...

MedicJim: Commanders at all levels had an orchiotomy when it came to deplying snipers in a HUMINT role in Iraq. They are scared of casualties, and deathly afraid of captures. It is as much a product of the promotion system as it is the politicizing of the war by the left. I hate that this happens--but then, I can't find it in my heart to blame these guys. A loss of anyone under your responsibility is a major loss of sleep for life. That takes care of the relative few who know what snipers are for---the rest only think they know. BKS hears this one every day and night for years. Morgue hit these poitns already...I really should read all the way thru instead of typing as I go...

No...a 1:12 223 is not going to a thou.

Another discalimer: I was never slotted as a sniper---just filled in as a spotter after attending and barely making the grade in the CAT II SOTIC at Devens back in the 80s. I never really focused on that, as i also had split-team duties with target analysis, engineer, commo, and EMT-level medical stuff. I was expected to shoot well and adjust a second round onto targets--but the other stuff ate my time wholsesale. OCS ended all that fun and games for many years (until Iraq, actually). Still, it was fun being that lieutenant who out-shot the whole damned battalion. On the team, I was average. In the regular army--average was pretty damned good. But, my opinion on things related is just an opinion--I am learning this art now (because I didn't bother back then:)).

That little one-sided viewpoint might also tell us something about the state of training overall. Ya'll do know that even if a soldier (stateside) fired his weapon once a month--it would be a huge improvement?

Of course, if that happens---the price of ammo will do more than the 50% price insrease we've seen already. And all that shooting in Iraq? Not helping much. I would shoot at every opportunity--I mean at designated ranges. I'd just break out the oldest mag loads and verify my zero and hold overs at differing altitudes, etc. I swear, the guys with me would freak out---their basic load was off limits for such things. They needed to get "training ammo" and permission to do this. So, my immediate answer was to go out with a few cases of ammo so the guys I rode with could play too. Call it self preservation rather than good will or good leadership; having the knowledge that the guys with ya were in fact zeroed made me feel better. Cuz Morgue is spot-on--this was not a prerequisite for combat ops in many places. And I was never above bending the rules back into making sense.

My head hurts...i could go on about why this happens...I probably have over the years...but it isn't going to change for years (the kids in Iraq need to grow up and become CSMs and LTGs for meaningful changes). So, time to lighten the mood:

I wonder if this thing will work on cats?...click my name.

Joe M
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 04:40:31 (ZULU)

Mourge My wife's gonna hate you next season when she notices another gun in the closet. Interesting and convincing reads.

Joe M Hope you feel better now. LOL Going and shooting some will make you feel better too. I saw that earlier, can't remember who posted it but it's hillarious. Wife and daughter didn't think it was, so that confirmed that it had to be funny.

Going to MSSA tomorrow to meet a couple of guys from here if it's not raining. Still got 300 rounds of that LCM to burn so I can reload it all. Should take me 10 weeks at my average rate. Plus my standard 5 a day with the 300 RUM. I'll be glad to start shooting the .308 more due to the lower cost of reloading. Uses 1/2 as much powder.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 05:22:48 (ZULU)

Ok Ya'll,

Yuv done and got me to come out from under my rock with this .338 thing. I can/have consistently hit a 10 inch target at 1400 yds with my AR 30. While I wouldn't consider a .338 lapua for everyday work it's a great round past 800 or so. In my mind it picks up where the .308 starts to become problematical. It's a great round, now only if it was a little cheaper.....it would be perfect.

Stay safe

Calvin

PS hey mourge, good to see ya posting again, stay safe

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 14:06:33 (ZULU)

Hey Calvin,

Yeah i've been lurking for a while, it took a subject near and dear to bring me out from under my bush. BWG...

Out of curiosity gents where do you generally pick up your reloading stuff. I have been looking around a little bit and since I have been ordering some ammo from Midway I checked out there misc reloading stuff. They are selling 338 brass for between $175 and $200 depending whether or not you go with Norma brass or Lapua brass...

If I didn't have a good enough motivation to reload before, I sure do now based mainly on the price of rounds vs the price to reload rounds...

Morgue

Hey out of curiosity what rounds are you running and what is your dope out at that distance?

Mourge
Overseas, - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 14:40:04 (ZULU)

Kabumei: The ultimate martial art. Click on my name for the link. It's a short video, so you might want to pass if you're on dialup - or at work.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 15:06:12 (ZULU)

Mourge - email sent, no attachements - re: reloading for your rifle

medicjim
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 15:15:03 (ZULU)

JoeM: "orchiotomy"....... ouch.

You have a way with words.

Duman
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 15:28:55 (ZULU)

Hey Mourge,

I'm running 85 gns of accurate 3100, cci large mag riffle primer,lapua brass under a sierra 250 gn gameking. This combo works for me but your mileage may vary. I get stuff from where ever it's cheapest, midway or midsouth or where ever...

Just looked in the ol' data book and I'm using around 49 moa to get to 1400 with the above load.

It's good to know your still sucking wind my friend.

Stay safe and stack em' like cord wood !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 18:52:21 (ZULU)

Calvin,,,,do like I do. Take the oldest rifle out of the gun cabinet and hide it somewhere she won't look. Oh, belay that. They know where EVERYTHING is. Of course, when Boudica left, that became moot. Of late, she has decided that she acted in haste and the I'm not to blame for her mid-life crises, and we're working out a rapproachment. Of course, it comes just as I find out I'm leaving to Afghanistan for a year, but better late than never. I just got word a few minutes ago that I'm definitely in for thenext rotation of Armorgroup Embassy security personnel to Kabul. Hot damn! I'm happier'n a puppy with two peckers.....no more barking dog calls and "my 8-year-old won't mind me, and I want you to give him a stern talking to!" bullshit. No more getting written up on IA complaints because I ate a sandwich on duty. Bye Bye to that shit. ON to new shit, but at least it'll have the novelty factor to keep it bearable.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 19:29:38 (ZULU)

Which one of you maniacs will be first?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070209-wingsuit.html

TRICK QUESTION...

http://www.ussportsmen.org/Read5.cfm?ID=2162&legdocs=LN

What is the correct answer and why.... this one will drag Bravo out of hiding for sure...if he is out there.

medicjim
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 20:45:21 (ZULU)

Hey Chuck,

You must have me confused with someone else... I don't have to hide no steenking guns from Harriet ! ( and you know that bro ) Crongrats once again on the change of life !

Medic Jim,

I'll take a stab at your question... The creator of the universe set it up so men can/should be armed. The second amendment to the bill of rights merely codifies that fact. The right to be armed is a natural right that predates any feeble attempt to limit it...

That's my thoughts on that subject.

Stay safe all !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 21:07:26 (ZULU)

Give that man a prize from the top shelf. Kinda frightening that 98 percent of the respondents answered yes....the question is very poorly worded.

medicjim
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 21:12:20 (ZULU)

Charles: good luck and be safe in Kabul.

OTOH, having had family living around SA for 40 years, I suspect that you're going to be safer there than riding around SA in a patrol car. :-)

I hope the reconciliation works out, too. That process is painful, even when it works out OK in the end.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 22:26:29 (ZULU)

Chuck,

I loved my Police career, but you will not believe the weight that will lift from your shoulders when you pull the plug and turn in your gear.

Just stay sharp and keep your head on a swivel.

Come by when you are in town.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 22:40:06 (ZULU)

HELLLLLLOOOOOO Snapper Country! And you other grassbellies LOL!

Oh, now that just figures. Here I’ve been barking up the right tree all along.

So now ‘big green’ is moving from the boltguns to the gasguns. OK – fine. That being the case, I still prefer an M25 to a ratgun LOL! Yes, I know there are downsides, but there are upsides too.

Just about the time I start to see the light, and figure maybe I ought to be moving the boltgun rebarrel project off the back burner, you guys go and say “yesterday was chocolate, it’s vanilla today!” That’s fine. As I can, I’ll still rebarrel the Winny – and it’s going to STAY in ‘260 magnum’, or as it’s been called the last 113 years, the 6.5X55 Swede. I just take mine with extra powder!

Well fine. I’m behind the times, and probably always will be. I like old cars, old rifles, old music, and – what was I saying?

And now I find out the 338 Lapdog is the best round out there. Well harrumph! I don’t have the dough to start another caliber at the moment, but if I did the AR30 sure looks nice. Maybe I’m biased, as the AR30 is the little brother of the REASON I don’t have the dough for another caliber.

On the M25 / ratgun thing though, didn’t Master Rick say that he’d never had one of either type finish his course?

I know he warned me that my ARMS rings were gonna fail – and they did.

Yeah Jim, I’m here (GRIN). I’m like Elvis – EVERYWHERE (but mostly eating jelly doughnuts while “working” on a Nevada road crew) LOL! OK, so there are some people that were simplifying. Calvin got the right answer. I got one of those stupid polls the other day, and griped at the pollster for asking stupid questions. Which one would I vote for, hitlary or mcstain? Neither. Oh, you wouldn’t vote? Don’t get me spooled up. The national propaganda and disinformation centers are working over the sheeple big-time... er, yeah, I’m not gonna get spooled up. Yet ;-) Drop Ron Paul a donation on the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party.

And for those of you who haven’t heard the news yet, my boy just BARELY missed the qualifying Marksman score. Not that he didn’t shoot well enough, he just didn’t get all the rounds down range in the rapidfire segments. Blame that on me, he’s running a single-shot boltgun. Not bad at all. Hopefully I’ll be buying a Marksman medal for him before his eleventh birthday – if not, well before his twelfth.

Bravo
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 23:20:56 (ZULU)

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