Sniper Country Duty Roster

December 2007

Anyone used the Grand Slams on Whitetails? I figure the 165's ought to be about right, but wondered what results you guys had had.

Also, does anyone know the words to "Taps"?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 00:34:54 (ZULU)

Taps

http://www.west-point.org/taps/Taps.html

medicjim
Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 01:58:34 (ZULU)

Ok, the taser incident officer was cleared.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22047054/

Travis, there are no words to "Taps" none are needed. Just the music should bring a tear to your eye.(Edited... I stand corrected. Well I'm sitting actually. But pretty straight)

DirtySteve, Out

dirtysteve
Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 02:47:15 (ZULU)

Words? Taps? I just heard it played yesterday, at the funeral for my step-grandfather, WWII USN veteran. The detail who rendered honors at the Southern Wisconsin Veterans Memorial Cemetery was composed of men from every branch. They were very sharp.....and proud.

Taps makes my eyes leak every time, as does the national anthem and Amazing Grace......it's the meaning behind the song, not the song itself.

Click my name for a pic, taken by Joe's other half. NOT a trophy by any means, but it's the opportunity that presented itself, and just a few minutes before dark on my last day at that. No comments about the mug shot....

I have a pic with Joe in it, and his FIL too, I'll only put that up if Joe is OK with it.

Have an opportunity to pick up 500 rounds of LC .308, 155 grain ball, for $225. It's fairly recent production. Any issues with recent versions of this brass for reloading other than the usual slightly reduced case volume?

How did everyone else's hunt go?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 04:16:06 (ZULU)

Rod and Jim Thanks. I'll be giving them a try, but not on the deer, I guess I'll stick to the Accubonds or such type of polimer tip for the deer loads. From what I've heard and in my opinion, there just doesn't seem to be a good cross over. SMK's maybe, but Sierra says not too. I've had great success with Accubonds so far in my RUM and Winmag as far as humane kills. Everything I've shot with them has been DRT, and as far away as 600yds on heads and almost 800 on bodies. They've mostly been head shots though because of the meat loss. They are accurate with a fair BC for a hunting bullets. That's why I had to ask advise on how they shot at long ranges in the .308 with it's slower velocity. Big difference in 180grn at 3275fps and 155 at 2800. I had a supprise today. My RUM shot a 5 shot.487@100 with hunting load and the .308 shot a .620@100 with LCM 173. I only had time to shoot one group each. I blame it on the socpes. I think the .308 is capable of much more accuracy if I just had a better scope and start hand loading for it. The current scope is just not as crisp and lacks the power I desire. Next spring the Zeiss 3.5x10x50 goes and gets replaced with a Leup 4.5x14x50 LR/T M1 Illumunated or an equivilant Night Force.

Travis There was a good article about TAPS and the playing of it at military burrial ceremonies. It was in the NOV 10 issue of the "Commercial Appeal" from memphis TN. I'm sure you can find the article on google. It included an interview with one of the Navy band stationed in Millington, and how the demand for taps has gotton so high in the last few years that the military has resorted in some cases to playing a recording of the song from an electric device inserted into a ceremonial bugel. Sad but true.

Geoff Nice looking buck. Is the inside spread about 18 inches? I can't tell age from side but he's deffinately a shooter for my area of the country. Not the law, but my land owner likes 18in and 8pts. He looks like he'd fit the bill which is hard to come by with the neighbors shooting everything from spikes and up.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 05:08:51 (ZULU)

Jeff,

At Dad's funeral here a while back, "taps" was played on a really crappy stereo, on a really crappy recording. Sounded like a cassette that had been left on someone's dash in the heat for a few years.

I guess a new CD and stereo set would be a good memorial gift to the VFW. By the look and sound, I'd be willing to bet the blanks they fired were reloads, too. I owe those guys a little something.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 06:39:43 (ZULU)

Geoff M

Took a nice 10 pionter yesterday, not a big rake , but a nice sized deer. 185# field dressed.

Gary Kaney
N, ILL, - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 11:02:13 (ZULU)

Geoff M:

LC normal production has to meet a certain spec, and is inspected too. I wouldn't have any hesitation in acquiring on that account. Some fellows choose LC over other US commercial for brass, so it must be decent stuff.

I don't know if that is a good price, but ammunition and components are all racing upwards in price, grab the good pricing while you can!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 14:16:34 (ZULU)

Geoff I saw some LC match at auction somewhere just a few days ago. It was at $90 for 100 rounds at the time I was looking, but still had a couple days to go so I'm not sure what it finished up for, if that helps any.

Lito During dry firing exercise I noticed 1/4 MOA jump in scope when the pin drops and the bolt jumps up and loose. Do you think this is stress that is being relieved by the pressure being taken off the action. If so what should be done to fix this? If not what else could it be? Hope things are going well with your case.

Travis That is sad in itself. My mother overuled me when I asked that taps be played for my father who was a WW II and Korea Vet. She did allow "Amazing Grace" and "Old Rugged Cross", a Methodist favorite, to be sung though, as these were his favorite Hymns. I think his fellow vets were disappionted, as he was an active member, and had donated a lot to the war museum in Covington, including his AVG back patch.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 16:25:56 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Do you have an adjustable trigger you've been monkeying around with?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 17:46:48 (ZULU)

Guys,

Click. I can't fucking believe this. Apparently, we're racists when we use the term "noose".

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 1, 2007, at 19:16:20 (ZULU)

Gear:

Check out the McNETT CAMO FORM™ CAMO WRAP.

http://www.actiongear.com search term "McNett".

Advert copy:

This ingenious patterned wrap conforms to the shape of any hard-surfaced item, immediately concealing, silencing, and adding a layer of padding and insulation that reduces glare and enhances grip even when wet. Unlike adhesive tapes, the heavy, textured stretch fabric clings to itself, leaves no sticky gunk on your hands or your gear. Roll: 2" Wide x 144" / 4 yds.

COLORS: (01) Woodland Camo; (33) Desert 3-Color; (59)Digi-Cam Green; (60)Digi-Cam Desert; (99)Army ACU Universal Digital Camouflage.

$14/roll

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 00:00:40 (ZULU)

Travis: well, I guess that salsa ad which featured the line "New York City? Get a rope!" is out, too.

These are strange times.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 00:14:09 (ZULU)

Guys,

Will a .30-06 neck die work for other .30 calibers? I was thinking of using it for my .30-30, but wondered about the advisability of doing so.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 02:16:28 (ZULU)

Travis:

Neck-only dies are not recommended for lever-action rifles chambered for bottleneck cartridges. The actions doen't have a lot of camming force to deal with slightly oversize cases.

(I'm guessing you don't have one of the relatively rare bolt-action .30-30 rifles).

Don't know about single-shots like the TC, suspect same issues arise for neck-only sizing.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 02:53:46 (ZULU)

Rod,

If I'm shooting them out of the same rifle, they wouldn't be oversized, would they?

As for the bolt action .30-30, I've been meaning to pick one up, sometime. From some of the data I've seen, I'm kind of interested in trying to develop some higher performance loads, as it seems that with more modern powders and bullets, a guy could have some pretty impressive performance, as compared to the loads for a standard lever action type load. Since nobody seems to really care about the bolt actions, I figure I can pick one up for under $100. Maybe buy two, and get a .22 barrel with a .30-30 chamber.

I've been wanting to get some sabots to mess around with the saboted .30-30 loads, using a .22 bullet. From all accounts I've heard, the Winchester accelerators are pretty impressive.

Are there any varmint calibers based on the .30-30 case?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 03:21:25 (ZULU)

Travis Rods right about the neck sizing on lever actions, it applys to autos also. I have no problems with neck sizing for my encore or my NEF. However, EA Brown recomends full length resizing for the single shots for some reason. They are experts in single shot accuracy. I'm not looking for super accuracy out of any of my single shot guns. They also sell the sabbots you mentioned. My question is will the 30-06 die lower far enough on the 30-30 case to size the neck with the 30-30 being shorter? As far as supping them up, take case strength into account.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 03:33:56 (ZULU)

Jeff,

I was just sitting here, wondering about the length factor, but my back hurts too much to warrant getting up for anything less than taking a massive crap or the house catching fire. I'll check on the length later. That seems to be when I plan to do everything these days-LATER.

Edited To Add:

I checked. No way the '06 die will work. I suspected as much, but had to try.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 03:44:32 (ZULU)

non-ceramic body armor strike plate:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071201/bullet_proof_071201/20071201?hub=TopStories

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 12:30:25 (ZULU)

Hey gents,

I don't know what you have heard about this stuff but after watching a demonstration on future weapons I was pretty impressed. If you haven't heard anything about dragon skin it is a non ceramic body armor as well and after watching the the future weapons video on it you might be as well.

I tell you what, I already have a full set of body armor and i am still seriously thinking about picking up a set for when SHTF.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS0pSwdQfbY

Hope you guys enjoy the links

Morgue out

Joe,

I get to roll out for a couple days, no net and no misc BS. going to be a good time, talk to you when I get back.

edited to add...

the New multi shot 40mm... Sadly I haven't had a chance to touch one... but i would so like to wring one out on the range...

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/t_mourge/weapons/m32-thumb.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/t_mourge/weapons/M32.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff113/t_mourge/weapons/IMGP0412.jpg

Mourge
Overseas, - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 17:23:30 (ZULU)

re: body armor

I saw the "Future Weapons" segment on the Dragon Skin product,

was very impressed. Looked like a better mouse trap.

(Vids are also available on vendor web site too).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 19:48:18 (ZULU)

Sorting buckets of brass sucks. Pulling bullets sucks worse.

Duman
Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 22:45:16 (ZULU)

Duman,

I was just looking at my "pull" box. I definitely need one of those cam lock bullet pullers.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 2, 2007, at 23:11:24 (ZULU)

Click. Enjoy.

Also, check this one out.Sound advice: http://despair.com/propaganda.html

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 05:37:59 (ZULU)

Just said good bye to best friend of last 30 years. He is off to box for third tour. Same age as me. Great man and we have fought side by side many times. I feel lke crap for not being with him. Herd yesterday they gave age waver to 61 year old. I wonder if they will wave on me and ignore the six major knee repairs?

I am bored making slings.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 14:47:05 (ZULU)

Mornin Men It's started our third Muzzle loader season here in TN. I wish they could just line everything up in a row and not jump around so much. Now I've got to head to the airport to hang a P&W 1340 radial engine. IT wouldn't be so bad except where we hang them is in the door of the hanger, and now that gun season has ended for a couple of weeks, the temperatures have dropped to the 30's and the winds are about 15knots. It was in the upper 60's for the last week of this past gun season?!?! I think I'm gonna try to talk the mechanic into using the forklift to hang the thing. The only problem I can see is that they have hung them their way for 25 years. I'm the new head pilot, but that doesn't mean they do everything the way I say. Hell, I can't even get my wife to leave my favorite coffee mug alone. I even went so far as to buy her 5 of the insulated ones from Starbucks. $21 each, $105 for coffee mugs. One for each day. They are all in her car from last week, and so she takes mine,Cause it's Monday and she hasn't had enough time to get hers out of the car this weekend. My only one, that I wash everyday when done. Tradition is hard to break, even if it is 30 degrees warmer inside the hanger, and your wife has a back seat full of used muggs.

Anyone wanting to donate 5-10 155 Scenars Email me. My rifle doesn't seem to like light bullets. At least not factory ammo. I've tried 4 different types, none of which shoot less than 2in at 100. I've tried 5 heavier "168 and up" factory loads and they all shoot into 1 inch. I'd like to get an idea about them before buying 100. Actually I'd be more than happy to pay for the small sample and postage.

Joe M I'm considering the info you sent carefully. Probably give this two years, and if it doesn't get better, then take the offer. Thanks for the hope of a plan B to what I'm doing now. I'll need to know more about disqualifiers. I've had some knee and shoulder surgeries but they are in good shape now.

Counselor Pablito Continued good luck in your court case. Hope all's going well.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 15:40:54 (ZULU)

Hey Mike Undude

Been thinking the same thing. During the FPF they could use me as a titanium filled projectile. I could do some damage.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 18:15:34 (ZULU)

Finger.....put all three of us together, and they can make that projectile a cannister round.....was gonna make it this weekend, but the spouse is making noises about reconciliation and I hadda strike while the iron was hot, if you know what I mean. Showed Matt that yes, you CAN catch a car on fire with just ball ammo! Sixty rounds of 855 ball in the gas tank in just a few seconds will do the trick. He's a hoot when he's nervous....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 21:58:18 (ZULU)

Charles,

You should show him the video of the squad car fully engulfed in flames after some numbnuts left his loaded shotgun with one in the chamber in the trunk, then smacked a speedbump extra hard.

I hope they made him walk home.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 22:04:31 (ZULU)

Chuck,

Wish you and momma all the luck in the world. In my prayers.

sad news: I hadda contact Rock in Bangkok today. His Mom called and said his Dad passed away. He is on his way back from vacation.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 22:24:08 (ZULU)

I turned 61 in July.

I've been lucky with knees - they are fine, though I thought I might have broken a tibia when I slipped while running part of our O-course last week. Turned out just to be a large hematoma.

It's the brain which doesn't work so hot any more. Now, where ARE my car keys... :D

Chuck: good luck with the missus - hope it works out for you.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, December 3, 2007, at 23:20:30 (ZULU)

Jeff:

If you don't get any better offers I'll send you some.

Unlike the US, I don't believe Canada has any regs on exporting projectiles (at low velocity :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 00:26:30 (ZULU)

Rats. I'm sorry to hear about Rock's dad. Bad way to end a vacation. And thanks from all for the wellwishing. I'd much rather take up with the one I have than try to break in a new one. Plus, I get to keep all my pension. Well, that's not really true, this way she'll get ALL of it instead of only half, but it sounds better.

One of the worst things about getting old is when you get Alzheimer's AND a sense of deja vu.....you know you've been here before, you just can't remember where the hell you are....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 01:11:44 (ZULU)

Recently re-discovered data from this summer:

Pistol: 45-ACP HK-USP45F

Bullet: 230-gr Rainier Ballistics Plated HP

Powder: 5.0-gr Bullseye

Mean: 919 fps

SD: 11 fps

Sample Size: 11

Altitude: ~8800' ASL

YMMV

Duman
Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 02:01:51 (ZULU)

Charles and Lindy,

I'm only 30, so the memory loss thing is kinda new to me. Is it normal that when I walk through the house looking for something, I always end up looking for it in the fridge?

P.S.-I was thumbing through my wife's Avon catalog the other day on a long road trip with her folks (trying not to jump out of the car) and saw a time saver for us memory challenged folks. It's a T.V. remote keychain. I call it a time saver because with it, I'd be able to lose my keys AND the remote simultaneously.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 02:37:36 (ZULU)

Charles,

One GOOD thing about Alzheimer's is that you're always making new friends and learning new things.

Wait... that's two things...

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 05:47:56 (ZULU)

The other advantage to having Alzheimers is....Ya get to sleep with a differant woman every night of the week.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 11:25:01 (ZULU)

New "career" for Gooch. Take a wild guess. Wrong... Check out www.samaritanhs.org

I'm the night manager there...

LOL

Out here

Gooch
Hot Sprangs, AR, - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 12:09:39 (ZULU)

Master Gooch Hows it been going? I've been gone for 6 years, but after coming back wondered where you were. Saw the tripod, and made one. Great idea. Already used it to steady a 425yd head shot on a doe that I had no rest for otherwise. I was in the middle of a cut corn field and the ground dropped off enough to make the bipod too short. The camera tripod worked perfectly. Come see us more often.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 13:19:06 (ZULU)

I don't post here much but I still lurk all the time. I wanted to pass this on, some of you may know this Fallen Solider.

WV SF Solider to be buried at Arlington Today.

12/03/2007

Please Pray

Staff

Charleston

A West Virginia soldier, a few hours from his death in Iraq, had a final request for his parents. He wanted them to pray for the men who served under him.

Special Forces Captain Benjamin Tiffner will be buried Tuesday in Arlington National Cemetery. He died Nov. 7 in Baghdad of wounds suffered when an improvised explosive device struck him.

Family friend Randy Curry of Alum Creek, who watched Tiffner grow up in Kanawha and Clay counties, says the 31-year-old Tiffner was a special man who cared for the spiritual conditions of the 11 men in his group. He says Tiffner spoke to his parents just a few hours before he lost his life.

"He told his parents, 'Please pray for these men,'" Curry said. "He had witnessed to each of them about the Lord and about Christ as his Savior and he wanted them to have that same peace."

Tiffner grew up in a missionary home. His father will officiate Tuesday's funeral service.

Curry says a lot of good has already resulted from Tiffner's death. He says his parents want the service to focus on their son's relationship with God. The service at Murphy Funeral Home will begin and end with the hymn "To God Be The Glory."

"That gives you a good idea of where they want the emphasis to be," Curry continued. "And that's where their hope and confidence is right now."

The funeral service will be followed by a burial service at Arlington National Cemetery. Curry says an Honor Guard will carry Captain Tiffner's remains to the grave followed by a 21-gun salute and Taps.

Curry says he'll never forget Tiffner's smile and his leadership abilities that were evident from a very young age.

"He would do anything they would ask him to do and he would do it with every bit of his energy and effort. He really enjoyed training and working hard," Curry said.

One of Captain Tiffner's instructors at West Point years ago wrote a message about him in an internet Guest Book Monday.

"To the family and friends of CPT Tiffner, my condolences to you. I was shocked to hear of Ben's passing this morning. Though it has been many years since Ben was assigned to me as a plebe at West Point, I will always remember his uncommon qualities. He was honest, hardworking, loyal, good humored, and a fine friend. I will never forget Ben."

http://www.wvmetronews.com/index.cfm?func=displayfullstory&storyid=22393

Keith
WV, - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 17:45:32 (ZULU)

Gooch,

It's a fine thing you're doing there. Sounds like a good program. I hate to see all the programs that only help a person halfway. Yes, helping a person get a job or pay the light bill is good. But, if they have no way to get to work, what good is their job?

What's the verse in the bible about going the extra mile? Something about, "if a man asks you to walk a mile with him, go three?"? I was just looking for it the other day. Too bad my wife sees these proverbs as empty platitudes, rather than life lessons.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 4, 2007, at 20:01:00 (ZULU)

From another site:

Dangerous appointment to the BATF!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Senate Close To Confirming A Ted Kennedy-style Liberal To BATFE

-- Contact your Senator immediately

Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert

8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151

Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408

http://www.gunowners.org

Tuesday, December 4, 2007

"We'll miss him in Massachusetts, but he'll be a strong leader at

ATF, and I look forward to working with him on key issues on gun

control." -- Senator Ted Kennedy

The above quote highlights all you need to know about Michael

Sullivan, the acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms and Explosives.

Sullivan was, unfortunately, nominated by President Bush to

permanently take over ATF this year. Right before Thanksgiving, the

Senate "hotlined" his name for unanimous consent approval.

(Hotlining is a parliamentary maneuver which allows non-controversial

bills or nominations to be unanimously approved by the Senate without

debate or a vote.)

GOA immediately sent a letter to each Senator's office, urging them

to oppose the Sullivan nomination. Thankfully, one senator

subsequently objected to Sullivan's approval, and his nomination was

put on hold. However, that legislator is now coming under fire from

other senators, who are asking him to withdraw his "hold."

That's why it's important for gun owners to contact their two

Senators. Under Sullivan's leadership, the ATF has gone berserk.

Sure, the problems at ATF didn't originate with him, but Sullivan has

certainly done nothing to put out the fire.

While discussing the agency's 2008 appropriations bill, the House

Commerce & Justice committee issued a stinging rebuke for the ATF:

"The committee has heard reports that ATF has pursued license

revocations and denials against firearms dealers based on violations

that consist largely of recordkeeping errors of various types that

are unlikely to impede tracing investigations or prosecution of

individuals who use firearms in crime. The Committee encourages ATF

to consider lesser gradation of sanctions for recordkeeping errors."

[House Committee report on HR 3093.]

The strategy, that was begun long before Sullivan arrived, has

continued unabated under his tutelage. ATF inspectors try to find

any violation they can, usually focusing on clerical mistakes.

A family gun business that had been in operation for years in

Baltimore, Maryland was attacked because of the "wanton, repeated

crime" of abbreviating Baltimore as "Blto" on the teeny,

tiny spaces

on the 4473 forms.

Now, the agency has turned their collective guns on Red's Trading

Post in Idaho, among others. Even though one ATF agent told the

manager that Red's was "one of the best small gun shops" he'd ever

seen, the ATF has continued its assault on this gun shop (which has

been in business for decades) for minor clerical mistakes and failing

to put up a poster.

According to WorldNetDaily, one judge who is familiar with the Red's

Trading Post case found "the ATF speaks of violations found during

the inspections of 2000 and 2005, but fails to reveal that additional

investigations in 2001 and 2007 revealed no violations or problems."

The judge also noted the ATF was exaggerating the situation by

"double counting" some violations.

The agency holds a continuing animus against gun owners and dealers.

Inspectors have no handbook under which to operate, and the absence

of such written procedures allows them to be arbitrary and

capricious.

Americans don't need an anti-gun cop from Massachusetts as the

Director of the federal gun police.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 00:41:18 (ZULU)

Anyone know a good way to train a dog that seems incapable of shitting anywhere except INSIDE my house?

I even stayed up until about 3 a.m. this morning, trying to catch her squatting, and every time I'd get up and follow her to her favorite spot, she'd look guilty as hell, and come back to me. I took her out at least 6 times, and she'd pee, but, come morning, I sat down at my desk and put my foot right in a loaf!

I was displeased. Right before I logged on, I took her out, she peed, I brought her in, grabbed the laptop, and guess what? Present all over some clothes in the laundry room. If I didn't like her so much, I'd just rub her face in it and shoot her in the back of the head.

We don't have room for crate training at the moment, and I never cared for that method, anyhow. Any ideas?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 05:54:00 (ZULU)

Travis -

1. Crate training works very well... Make room for it.

2. Get her Vet checked to make sure there aren't any issues for infections, etc that would make her have to go for pee/poop more than usual.

3. Put her in a nice crate (put a blanky or somethin easy to clean)- a little bit of water to wet her whistle with when you bed down. Might whine abit to start with, but will settle down. Crate should be big enough to turn around in and lay down commfortably - but not so mega big - that - should they take a dump in it - they have to now lay next to or just touching it. They will get the idea that "I'm stuck with this if I go in the crate"

4. Of course let her out of the crate first thing when you're up. Be consistent with this. She'll get into the pattern, but you gotta do the part. If the kids are unreliable, then you gotta do it.

5. This is not cruel. It will make patterns for her to get into. You'll clean the crate a time or two or more. After awhile - she'll be into that pattern to go out in the morning

6. Every once in a rare time, she'll get hold of something odd, etc - and just make a mess on the floor, in the crate, etc. You'll be able to tell that this was a case of her being sick...

Good luck man :)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 11:45:05 (ZULU)

Travis - I'm with Ken...BTDT, the crate is an effetive and humane way to teach a dog where to do 'business'. The one point I have to add is that you don't want to use the crate as punishment, it should be treated as her "refuge" for safety, peace and calm.

medicjim
Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 17:24:10 (ZULU)

Travis -- Forgot to mention what Jim says ... definitely NOT to use the crate as punishment. During the day - we'd leave their crates open and of course tidy. Lots of times - the dog would go lay inside their crate to take a knap.....

take care,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 17:27:17 (ZULU)

Travis..If you don't have room for crate training try feeding twice a day followed by outside potty break. Don't leave food down all the time. If there is an accident, bitter apple solution available at pet stores, sprayed on a cotton ball and inserted in the dogs mouth once or twice at the site of the "accident" then being taken outside should soon work. You must catch the dog IN THE ACT of soiling in the house for this to work properly. Seems the taste is a very effective deterrent when associated with inside soiling. Also dog should be praised when doing their "business" outside in a proper place. I house trained a beagle using these methods in less than 6 weeks and we all know how stubborn they can be. Good luck Str8shot

str8shot
S. Central, MI , USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 18:12:18 (ZULU)

The NIE on Iran's Nuke program states that they "likely" stopped work on their bomb in 03. The news is reporting it as "fact." That is bad ju-ju. One wonders what then Dr. A.Q. Khan was giving Iran in late 2003/ 2004?

If you were paying attention to the side show of India/ pakistan nuclear pursuits from the early 70s thru the final no-shit explosions of 98; you may recall the same arguments: "No, they aren't...yes they are...we need to dissuade thru negotiations...they said they stopped.." We went around and around---and basically, this was a secret-assed program in a country (Muslim) where we had few "reliable" sources. And even fewer planted assets. So we knew nothing, just spent years guessing--and being ditracted by bigger things like the Soviets, vietnam, an oil embargo, 3 mile island, saddam, China, Bosnia, etc. (click my name for the nuke-chronology)

Much like today--we are distracted by many things.

So...What's changed since last year? Nobody else seems to give a shit, so I'll let ya know: We've opened "source" material to the analysts. And, gave them an order to use that knowledge previously withheld (to protect these sources---learned from prior bad shit from doing this very thing)--in assessing the information provided. So basically, you have some geek desk jock with no first-hand knowledge of any source making judgments on credibility. The field agent--who knows the guys who give them the intel, and his station chief--who knows the agent running these sources, used to jointly make these judgments (number scale of credibility) and that was that. No longer--now they get second guessed by MBAs in a cozy Virginia office. I can see it now: "Hmmmm...this source is selling out his own country....he can't be trusted if he is a treasonous bastard to his own people...what's this? we paid him too? No way this guy can be trusted...disregard all that he says....hmmm, another treasonous bastard? He says the same thing the other bastard said? A pattern! Disregard all this bullshit..." Geek: "Sir, based on our analysis, no credible evidence of Iran's nuke program exists...in fact, we find that the only credible person turns out to be Ahmadinejad...and, as an aside, we also discovered that Andropov is still alive and his government doesn't have nukes either."

In case you missed it--that scenario describes almost every damned human-source in existance. If this is how we want to play the spy game, may as well fold up the tent and go home. Disband the CIA, DIA and any other alphabet and spend that budget on bomb shelters. Heheh.

Bottom line: The report is not definitive. It is merely the newest guess, based on some new criteria for judging our raw data. It is worth the paper it is printed on, only if you need to whipe your ass right now...or to line a crate for dog training.

I am at a loss to decide which is the most dangerous situation--this report, or the stupid new methods used to obtain a 180-degree out assessment. Both are deadly to our country...

I guess we'll know based on who nukes us first:))

Joe M
Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 20:33:50 (ZULU)

Travis, crates come and go in my house all the time. But I am curious: How do you have room for the dog but no room for a crate that fits the dog?

Joe M
Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at 20:39:31 (ZULU)

I know this is Travis's job. :) But take a look at the UW-Madison PD chasing a Krispy Kream truck and yes those are donuts falling into the road!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOcGj2S_Lug

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 00:44:42 (ZULU)

AK vs. AR. vs. Mosin Nagant: which is better?

Click on my name for the answer.

Cheers!

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 01:52:54 (ZULU)

Joe M, IMO this NIE was all about starting with the answer and them figuring out what questions to ask. The national level intelligence agencies have become too much a part of the DC crowd and the politics. The guys out working are still as good as ever, but 99% of the public never gets to know that because their bosses are political douchebags.

Again, IMO, the same thing that burned the Bush admin pre-OIF(intrepreting facts based on what you wanted to see) is swinging the other way WRT Iran. The problem is that we're not erring on the side of greatest caution, and that's dumb.

Hopefully, this is simply an Admin attempt to de-escalate and offer a fig leaf to Iraq WRT their nuke program. Perhaps they'll take it. If nothing else, once you swallow the gall of admitting you were wrong, it's an opportunity to show you were being "reasonable" to the world. That way, when we get kicked in the sack, we appear to be the wronged party to a greater % of the public. The Blame America 1st asshats will always be there, but perhaps we can find some way to revoke their citizenship or if not Amcits, just liquidate them;) S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 02:39:21 (ZULU)

Guys,

Hope all of you in Omaha are okay. I'm interested in the details of this deal, since Nebraska only recently got concealed carry. I hope the shooter didn't have a permit. If he did, it'll only be fodder for the idiot machine.

Joe M.,

The dogs are outside, primarily. I bring them in at night to make my wife feel secure, since my sleeping pills wipe me completely out. Right now, we have way more stuff in the house than usual, so there's no room for the crate. I've got a spot in mind, but as soon as I clear it out, my wife will stockpile christmas shit right there.

Joe U.,

LOL, thanks for filling in. I'd already seen it, and it was on T.V. tonight. I figured some folks would figure I was just being a dick, if I were to post a video of cops in hot pursuit of a doughnut truck.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 03:48:31 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Not all analysts are (were) geeks. ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 05:32:03 (ZULU)

Ken M: RE: Velosity versus barrel length.

You may be able to save yourself a lot of shooting. What you're proposing to do has allready been done. Click on name, or paste and copy to your browser

http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

Barrel length started at 22" and ended at 10". Same barrel was used by cutting off an inch for each length tested.

JayDee
SoCentral, WA, US of A - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 06:22:28 (ZULU)

JayDee: Good one. I'll check it out when I'm rested and sober.

Scott Ott has questions for the Republican candidates. Click my name.

CDC'
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 06:52:17 (ZULU)

jc: No, not all. Langley got a few things quite right. Mostly, we do not know what these were:))

Geoff M: The Bloody Mary is perfected. The problem with the last batch was the big stein we used---I was not able to scale the ingredients worth a damn. So I sat here with a proper tumbler and tinkered with the mix until i got it right. It was the fourth try that was goooood. I think...I don't really remember.

There's been lotsa cut-barrel articles for velocities, but usually on bolt guns. The AR does weirder things as the barrel gets short--and the tuning of the gas system is what I'd be interested in. I heard from some navy-types that their 10.5" carbines were reliable when the suppressors were attached, and they weren't so without. I did not fire enough to find out what that meant--but I did learn that a 10.5" barrel is loud as a Who concert ear injection. The suppressor they had was the civilized way to engage savages.

More deer season starting tomorrow.

Does it mean anything that the Hornady Interlock SST has the same color plastic tip that the 165 TAP has? And that this is a different shade than the 168 Amax tip of the civie TAP?

Since when is "saving yourself a whole lotta shooting" a good thing?

Joe M
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 07:18:52 (ZULU)

Joe,

That sucks. That means the A-max, the V-max, AND the interlock all look identical. I was just arguing with a buddy at the gunshop the other day about this. He told me a Hornady rep told him the A-max had a yellow tip. After arguing for about ten minutes, (I shoulda bet him a box of bullets) he cracked open two boxes. He looked pretty crestfallen when he realised I was right.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 07:28:29 (ZULU)

JayDee, thanks but I'm not especially interested in 5.56 data at this time. I have a fairly good handle on that cartridge and I'm moving elsewhere for serious use.

Also, WRT saving yourself some shooting, this is the internet, I have fairly limited use for most data from unknown individuals on the net. I don't trust open source info without corroborating sources. Hell, I don't trust classified sources without corroborating independant sources.

There may well be a message there regarding recent issue of discussion. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 08:14:40 (ZULU)

Oh, and I strongly suspect that the difference in tip colors on Hornady bullets is nothing more than lot variance. Hornady has been real bad about that. The old Amaxes used to have much larger tips and much higher BC's, they just changed everything without telling anyone. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 08:16:11 (ZULU)

Travis,

You DO mean INTERBOND? Correct? As I am writing this I am looking at a box of Hornady Custom Loads #8098 .308Win 165gr BTSP INTERLOCK ....And they are not a balistic tip....

Are you still willing to bet that box?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 08:33:04 (ZULU)

Travis,

Matthew 5:41 “And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

Yeah, when you just pay their bills or give them money ya tend to be facilitator more than anything else. We don't force the Word on 'em just lay it out there and let God do the work.

Out here.

Kent

Gooch
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 08:50:53 (ZULU)

Gooch,

It's been my experience that if you give a man a fish, he'll want a steak. Teach a man to fish, buy him a rod and reel, give him your old beater pickup and a decent boat, and he'll say it's too hot to fish.

It's pretty damn rewarding, though, when you give a kid a belt full of tools and a ride to work for a couple weeks, and he won't answer your calls-because he's working overtime!

Thanks for the quote.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 09:28:49 (ZULU)

Snatched from www.ksccw.com . Enjoy. Click my name for the link to the original.

My husband and I had been happily

married (most of the time)

for five years

but hadn't been blessed with a baby.

I decided to do some serious

praying and promised God

that if he would give us a child,

I would be a perfect mother,

love it with all my heart

and raise it with His word

as my guide.

God answered my prayers

and blessed us with a son.

The next year God blessed us

with another son.

The following year,

He blessed us with

yet another son.

The year after that we

were blessed with a daughter.

My husband thought we'd

been blessed right into poverty.

We now had four children,

and the oldest was only

four years old.

I learned never to ask God

for anything unless I meant it.

As a minister once told me,

"If you pray for rain,

make sure you carry an umbrella."

I began reading a few verses

of the Bible to the children

each day as they lay in their cribs.

I was off to a good start.

God had entrusted me

with four children and

I didn't want to disappoint Him.

I tried to be patient the day

the children smashed

two dozen eggs on

the kitchen floor searching

for baby chicks.

I tried to be understanding...

when they started a hotel for

homeless frogs in the spare bedroom, although it took me nearly two hours

to catch all twenty-three frogs.

When my daughter poured

ketchup all over herself and

rolled up in a blanket to see

how it felt to be a hot dog,

I tried to see the humor

rather than the mess.

In spite of changing over

twenty-five thousand diapers,

never eating a hot meal

and never sleeping for more

than thirty minutes at a time,

I still thank God daily for my children.

While I couldn't keep my promise

to be a perfect mother -

I didn't even come close...

I did keep my promise

to raise them in the Word of God.

I knew I was missing the mark

just a little when I told

my daughter we were going

to church to worship God,

and she wanted to bring

a bar of soap along to

"wash up" Jesus, too.

Something was lost

in the translation when

I explained that

God gave us everlasting life,

and my son thought it was

generous of God to give

us his "last wife."

My proudest moment came

during the children's

Christmas pageant.

My daughter was playing Mary,

two of my sons were shepherds

and my youngest son was a wise man.

This was their moment to shine.

My five-year-old shepherd

had practiced his line,

"We found the babe wrapped

in swaddling clothes."

But he was nervous and said,

"The baby was wrapped

in wrinkled clothes."

My four-year-old "Mary" said,

"That's not 'wrinkled clothes,' silly.

That's dirty, rotten clothes."

A wrestling match broke out

between Mary and the shepherd

and was stopped by an angel,

who bent her halo and lost

her left wing.

I slouched a little lower

in my seat when Mary

dropped the doll representing

Baby Jesus, and it bounced

down the aisle crying,

"Mama-mama."

Mary grabbed the doll,

wrapped it back up

and held it tightly as

the wise men arrived.

My other son stepped forward

wearing a bathrobe

and a paper crown,

knelt at the manger

and announced,

"We are the three wise men,

and we are bringing gifts

of gold,

common sense

and fur."

The congregation

dissolved into laughter,

and the pageant

got a standing ovation.

"I've never enjoyed a Christmas

program as much as this one,"

laughed the pastor,

wiping tears from his eyes.

"For the rest of my life,

I'll never hear the

Christmas story without

thinking of

gold,

common sense

and fur."

"My children are my pride

and my joy and my greatest

blessing," I said as I dug

through my purse for an aspirin.

Jesus had no servants,

yet they called Him Master.

Had no degree,

yet they called Him Teacher.

Had no medicines,

yet they called Him Healer.

Had no army,

yet kings feared Him.

He won no military battles,

yet He conquered the world.

He committed no crime,

yet they crucified Him.

He was buried in a tomb,

yet He lives today.

Feel honored

to serve such a Leader

who loves us.

If you believe in

God and in Jesus Christ His Son,

send this to all on your buddy list.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 11:46:14 (ZULU)

UnPat: Interlock SST are plastic tipped. Even my over-priced (but way freakin' cool) SST shotgun slugs are plastic-tipped! Now that is something---that big ol' red pointy thing looks angry as hell. There is a dark side of me that wishes I got a hold of some in Iraq--there is something I am curious about...

Anyway, yeah--QC might be it. I have a box of 165TAP and interlockSSTs with matching burnt-orange tips (and several other boxes of assorted red tipped stuff). I thought maybe that might mean the interlock SST is the good bullet that is in the cop-only TAP load (that workie so well in the lite tactical Howa). Oh, well.

Okay....I just went and came back from the end of my driveway (1/2mile roundtrip) for the school bus exchange...and the sunrise has lots of orange and pinks...and a purple to pink rainbow above the ridge to my north. Damnedest thing I've seen since the black-and-white "moon-bow" in Hawaii. I pointed it out to the bus driver just to make sure I am not seeing things.

The boy is on day three of a job. He works mornings, alternating 7a-3p, or 5a-12noon at a produce department/ grocery. He interviewed for another night gig at a video shop and a local gas/ market. A dose of real world is just what the doctor ordered to cure his high-schoolitis view of life. Heheh. He comes home acting all exhausted, and I crack the whip and keep him working. "You wanna pay me rent, or bank that check to get your own place? OK, so you have to earn your keep. Bring me five bales down from the loft and go get that shovel..." Oh...hahahaha.

The Nebraska shooter was another teen, and he used a rifle--not a handgun. If any lesson comes out of this one--it may well be that the CCW law was a day late in this case.

My buddy has a new 6.4L Ford diesel--complete with soot filters, catalytic converters, and magic burn-off systems to keep the exhaust cleared. Mine is the old unrestricted 7.3L. He drives like his granny trying to do something about the 16 MPG or less he is getting. I drive mine like I stole it (I love the sound of a spooled up turbo thru a 5" exhaust pipe) and pull 20 MPG on my bad days. If I squeeze it and streamline the bed, the truck gets 23 MPG. My bad against his good means he uses 41% more fuel to get the same distance. All in the name of "cleaner emmisions." I do not have the PPM data for his or mine---but I think that there is no benefit whatsoever in scrubbing the exhaust if you just make a shitload more of it to do the same work. I also have some preliminary data on straight fuel vs. ethenol additives (10%) that is showing that you will burn as much fossil fuel to go the same distance--only if you use 10% ethanol, you pay for 10% more fuel.

This environmental shit is hair-brained emtotions running rough-shod over reasoned, critical thought. Somebody with some decent test equipment oughta look into this effect.

Joe M
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 13:41:44 (ZULU)

I've met Ken M one time. I was impressed with his understated demeanor and depth of shooting related knowledge.

If he is investing time to research something, it's probably 'on mark' and very relevant. Let's hope he elects to share some of what he learns <that's a hint Ken>.

medicjim
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 14:40:20 (ZULU)

Ken M Joe's wright about the cut barrel AR's. If you cut the barrel without moving the gas block back towards the chamber "leave it where it is" after cutting the length the gas will throw the bolt back and eject the cartridges but it happens so fast that it won't pick up another reliably. In other words the time the gas is acting on the bolt assembly and holding it back lessens when the barrel is shortened towards the gas block because the bullet exits the barrrel in a shorter period of time letting the action come back foward before the magazine has time to push another cartridge up for the bolt to strip. If you open the hole up this will only make the bolt slam back harder and be rough on your action, not give it any extra time. If you know someone that can fill the gas hole in the barrel and then drill another then it would work. Possibly a closed adjustable gas block over the old hole or a gas block turned upside down to cover the hole might woirk to close it. If you can find someone to reliably weld one shut let me know, I have some work for them. My machinist and I spent about a month screwing around with one that was shortened 4 inches before giving up, and realizing what was actually happening when the rifle wouldn't feed reliably. Also if you get that problem worked out and another gas block installed, be careful to start smaller on the hole for the new gas block and enlarge it till it functions reliably. If you start too big you will be putting a lot of unneeded gas pressure on the bolt assembly due to it being closer to the explosion in the cartridge. As it slams back from the high pressure it could cause damage to the rifle. Maybe consult with one of the manufacturers about placement and size of the hole. They may have a formula that works.

Anyone want to buy an 18 inch fluted heavy stainless target barrel with an Umberger comp premanently attached for an AR that doesn't function reliably? LOL Works great as a .22 cal rifeled and chambered piece of pipe. Or if you want a single shot AR.

Ballistic tips= Hornady A-Max Hornady Interbond, Hornady Interlock Super Shock, Hornady V-Max, Nosler Accubond, Nosler Ballistic tip, Nosler Balistic Tip Varment, Sierra BlitzKing, Swift Scirocco and Scirocco 2, and some more. There is a Hornady Interlock that is not the Super Shock that is not tipped. This is just the MidwayUSA listings. There are also some "big factory" bullets called Combined Technologies made by one of these guys. The different pollimer tipped do seem to differ in the jackets and empty space behind the tip to cause more or less expansion and weight retention for varment to big game. The tip colors also differ with the same manufacturer to help differentiate between callibers. I'm talking colors not shades of the same color here. In my OPINION, I like the ,and have tried most of these that are named except for the varment bullets on deer. They all worked well. For me the Accubond just seemed to be a little higher quality.

This post has a lot of opinion and personal experience in it. Read it that way and know it is just that. I'm not claiming it to be 100% accurate.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 14:49:34 (ZULU)

Joe M I've got the 2004 F250 Cut the exhaust in front of the converter and behind the muffler and replaced it with a piece of straight pipe. It gave me 2MPG and as you said the turbo can now be heard through the pipe. It does sound cool doesn't it. I've als got the Bully Dog Tripple Power Pup. THAT is cool. It'll hang with a Mustang GT now. That is also cool. The power Pup also lets you remove the speed limiter. You get really strange looks when you hand with Vettes at around 145 according to the GPS. Only gets 16 MPG though.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 15:20:17 (ZULU)

"Only gets 16 mpg, though."

.....so? It's fast and loud, ain't it?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 16:00:24 (ZULU)

Travis, no--mine is faster. But I also benefit from unresticted exhaust and better tuning/ intake. Mine is not set to be fast--I am more interested in efficiency of the design which is found roughly at 65HP over stock. Now these newer model superduties do have something I want bad: A four-link coil suspension up front. The 99-01 (maybe later too) weakness, IMHO, is the front end design. leafs are OK, but will lash when worked hard; and the underhang of key steering ingredients below the front skid ensures breakage. I have the cancelled checks to prove it:)) Several companies offer conversions that are highly rated to fix this. They are also highly proud of these kits---pricey!!!

The dilemma is: Do I dump my squirreled funds into a fifty or do I make el-trucko more betterer?

Heheh, i oughta get a job if only to play harder.

MedicJim: I don't think I was being critical of the AR velocity to barrel comparison; maybe someone else was. But along with it--I am interested in the gas system tuning (bolt velocity, feeding, gas tube placement, length etc)--the link posted was, as usual, a bolt gun. Interesting...but not relevant to the AR situtaion:))

Go, Ken, Go!

Joe M
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 16:58:22 (ZULU)

Joe M - My last post wasn't directed at you. I was just trying to spare Ken the lecture on what has become internet common knowledge regarding short ARs and suppressors. I suspect he may have been the origin of some of that info... maybe five years back.

medicjim
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 17:05:12 (ZULU)

JoeM: click my name --- the first thing you need to take care of in that Ford truck. I do like the way they look, but get scared away when I hear all the power stroke stories....

Take care,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 17:17:52 (ZULU)

Joe Does your system allow you to adjust the power settings? Mine has different settings adjustable of the fly. I leave it set at economy/towing setting thinking that would be where I got the best economy untill I "need" to go fast. Have you found that the higher settings will give better economy? I haven't left mine on the higher settings long enough to check the milage. If you get better milage on higher settings I'll have to give it a try on mine. The only problem...keeping my foot out of it. Also, I've got the FX4 off road package, sounds great, but it pretty much only covers the gas tank. You'd think an "off road" package would cover some of the steering components, but nope. The front of the 04 still sucks, just like the earlier models. I don't know why Ford can't get steering and fornt suspension right. I haven't driven an 08, so maybe the have. Every Ford I've owned from 84-04 eventually got the famous ford steering slack. I let my brother, who owned a Honda Prelude Si4ws, drive my 86 F350 4WD Dully Crewcab one time with me in it with him. We were going to get a load of mulch on a divided HWY with big paved shoulders. He had a hard time keeping it on the pavement and had to pull over and let me drive. When you're used to it, it doesn't bother you. If not, you've got trouble. What type tires are you running. I went from Yokohamas to Buckshot radials and lost 2mpg and handeling went to crap as expected from past experience.

Just so that this relates to guns, I put them in the back seat of afore mentioned truck and use it to take them to the range. Also, does anyone know a smith with a 6mm-06 Springfield chamber reamer. I want to have my NEF .243 converted. Was thinking I could resize 25-06 brass. Tell me if I'm wrongabout this.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 17:55:50 (ZULU)

CDC'-Good link. Please keep them coming. BTW, were you thinking of performing a regression on the barrel length/speed data?

Ken Hunter - I think the idea is to replace a Power-Stroke with a Cummins... unless I missed something.

Barrel length vs. bullet speed - of course the data will be in a bolt action rifles. Unless you have a roller-delayed blow-back system (ala HK) you will have to tune the load and gas tube for proper functioning in an AR15. A bolt action rifle is 'open-loop', whereas a gas blow-back is 'closed-loop'. In a closed loop system, you can't just change one variable, and expect other parameters to hold their respective relationships.

Duman
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 18:01:06 (ZULU)

Ken H: The 6.0 had some glitches, and is down 1.3L while making more power than the stock 7.3--meaning it is tweaked harder---less durable no matter how you slice it. My 7.3L Powerstroke is perfect for me in all measures. It will out-pull a 5.9L cummings--and the tranny is better to boot. I like some of the new features on the later 6L and on the new 6.4s--but overall--I prefer the 7.3L and the lack of the new emmision standards on mine. I made the decision to continue to upgrade and miantain this one for as long as i can. This also keeps bankers out of it.

Jeff: The 65HP setting on the banks is moderate to low; it is the recommended towing tune--but it also lets me sink my right foot into it while just tooling around--and it kicks fuel economy right along! Seems to be the sweet spot for the 7.3s. It has a few radical tunings above that, but I don't want to have EGTs like the Kiowa on my truck! The magna-flow pipe and AFE stageII kits complete the set up. I do want a new impeller and bearings in the stock turbo housing (cheap way to improve the durability and boost), a new TQ converter and deep pan, bullet-proof steering components with the relocator kit for the dampers, and an exhaust brake--to go along with that 4-link suspension kit (4 over). But i also want to win a lottery.

I'm running dunlops, a tad wider than the stock rubber. Initially lost 2 MPG with the flat-plate drag, but overcame that with the opening of the airflow. Wider works good on my fields--but takes away a bit on snow covered roads. Still, the monsterous weight and wheelbase of this beast makes it the most stable ride in my fleet in all conditions.

Joe M
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 18:36:11 (ZULU)

Dog crates-clear a space and put the crate in. The wife can pile stuff on top of the dog crate. BTDT.

6.? Powerstrokes- Ford has their own engine configuration, wiring harnass and engine management computer/program. Navistar furnishes the engines with the contracted configuration, Ford stuffs the engine in a chassis and plugs in the 'puter. Duuno about the 6 liter programs, but the 7.3 liter Ford programs sacrificed torque for a wider range of engine speed. Haven't read any service bulletins about fires in IH trucks.......Gee, wonder where the problem is?

Somehow, burning the soot doesn't seem ecologically sound to me. I'm gonna keep our 7.3 going until it dies. I figure my DT466 will outlive me.

Dunno about Powerstroke vs Cummins, but Ford is being sued for technological/intellectual property theft over a diesel they're trying to build themselves.

WR Moore
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 19:11:02 (ZULU)

Actually, pursuing the line of thinking that shortening the barrel is affecting bolt timing, you would have to think that the longer bbl in downstream of the gas port would hold pressure up and keep the bolt open longer. Not necessarily. Once the gas hits that bolt piston, it matters not how much more bbl is downstream from the gas port(to a point, you can't cut it 10mm in front of the hole). The first gas pressure starts the carrier backward, unlocking the bolt, then starting the extraction/ejection process. However, once the carrier key starts sliding away from the gas tube, everything else is accomplished by momentum. The gas immediately starts venting into the upper housing. DPMS has a shorty that they make by cutting the bbl and keeping the gas block under the handguard. Granted, it's not a 10" shorty, but it's short enuff. The real short ones suffer from too MUCH pressure, ripping off case heads and leaving the operator with a jammed rifle, or banging the brass so hard it ricochets back into the bolt path and crams everything up. If you're having extraction problems with a short bbl, look into one of the pigtail gas tubes that wrap around the bbl to legnthen it and allow the temp/pressure to cool, or reduce the port size.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 19:43:15 (ZULU)

I am aware of the difficulties of running variable length barrels and the Stoner gas system; that is partially why I wanted some method of eliminating the variables associated with different barrels when measuring velocities. All the guns I have run properly, although I'm not a big proponent of the ubershorties except for limited specific situations.

WRT gas port placement, the manufacturers have what works for them and it was arrived at via "cut and try" methods. IOW, we have to put the port here due to the length of the gas system we already have, start with port diameter of X and open it up until she runs right.

If Jim was impressed with my understated demeanor, I believe I must have had more to drink than I thought;)

BTW, thank you Jim, I will probably be back in your neck of the woods before June visiting that same guy and his new wife, I'll try to bring a rifle and get together.

The new ULSD engines are so-so, this '07 emissions crap is going to push Cat outta the on road truck market, according to their service reps. That said, the emmissions crap does work, the question is whether it's an improvement that is worth the expenditure. In some cities, the exhaust of an '07 is actually cleaner than the intake air WRT particulate matter. And for this you're paying $5-10k premium over a similar non-emmisions engine and I suspect that is a subsidized price to avoid totally killing sales. 2010 is supposed to be much worse, with the damned computer shutting down the entire truck if the emmisions crap goes wonky.

Lots of folks are looking real hard at "glider kits" which is buying a new frame and putting your own (pre-bullshit) motor in it. A nice early pre-07 C15/C16 Cat at 600HP is the way to go, for a class 8 truck. The light stuff I don't follow much. We have Duramax GM's which work good so far, Navistar DT466's which are good also, and an old 5.9 Cummins which is a dog for power but just won't die. The new Paccar badged Cummins diesels seem to work OK.

The law of unintended consequences is going to FUBAR this emmisions crap, just like always. The incity P&D guys(where the perceived problem is) will just run their old crap longer and longer and the problem will be just as bad, if not worse. The OTR guys are not, and never were, the problem. Hell, just introducing this ULSD fuel would have probably done the job WRT urban emmisions, but that's the problem when you have a technically ignorant governing body making law. In all of Congress and their bloated staffs, I doubt you have more than a dozen, if that many, people who have worked on a truck or even driven one.

Quite often, higher output motors deliver better fuel mileage IME. They push more air through the motor and at part throttle this results in a leaner mixture(and corresponding better charge agitiation in the combustion chamber) IMO. Dodge discovered in the 50's that IC engines work most efficiently at/near WOT, so brisk acceleration to cruise speed is actually the most efficient profile IME. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 19:55:11 (ZULU)

re: AR gas taps

I've seen aftermarket gas systems that stretch out or constrict the gas tube length as a way of addressing the timing/pressure issue.

Here are some examples:

http://www.ar15.com/content/products/accessories/gasTube/

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1591&title=AR-15/M16%20PIGTAIL%20GAS%20TUBE

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=9947&title=AR-15/M16%20REGULATED%20GAS%20TUBE

I don't know if they work as advertised.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 23:35:02 (ZULU)

Duman: "BTW, were you thinking of performing a regression on the barrel length/speed data?"

Yeah. I'll use SAS.

CDC'
Thursday, December 6, 2007, at 23:39:43 (ZULU)

Ken, when you come to NJ, don't worry about lugging a rifle. I've got several. I also have a .223 build planned which means I'll be picking up a Rem SPS for the donor action. You weren't clear on what testing you plan to do...if it involves 223, send me the test criteria and I'll get out the chrony and hacksaw

medicjim
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 01:21:05 (ZULU)

Ford Engine Problems

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22130914/?GT1=10645

Duman
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 01:31:41 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Damn,forgot about the SST....

AR Shorty's...DPMS also offers a Tungston Buffer,for slowing the action down.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 04:39:33 (ZULU)

mj, KenM: "...send me the test criteria and I'll get out the chrony and hacksaw..."

That would be a good way to eliminate a lot of nuisance variables. It seems like the barrel should be crowned. No?

CDC'
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 11:04:31 (ZULU)

Completely off topic....

Ya - was kind of deviling JoeM about replacing the power stroke with a cummins... On a serious note - I'm told that the Fords with the International engines are pretty good.

KenM: I often wondered why Ford hasn't gotten with Cat and arrange for one of their light truck sized 6/8 cylinder run/work forever engines for the Ford truck line. Cat/Cummins has gazillions of miles on highwys and gazillions of hours in jobsites, etc.....

Also - Bushmaster purchased Cobb Manufacturing. They'll be branding the Cobb line with the Bushmaster logo and picking up their 30'06, 338LM, .50 Cal, etc AR type rifles....

take care all...

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 12:30:49 (ZULU)

Duman,

Thanks! I hadn't heard that one. I doubt that engine failure would wreck me--especially out here in the boonies; but it would be inconvenient as hell. Especially since I have three car seats, usually filled, in this truck. My local Ford dealer is one of the businesses that I "worked" when I came out here for that recruiting gig--and we stayed on good terms.

Ken H: As with anything, there are good and bad points. The 7.3L is the "devil I know"--and that makes it my favorite. I looked at the gas vs. diesel thing, and decided that on a big towing platform there is only one way to go. Then I looked at the choices: Dodge had more "issues" reported and less power overall; duramx is overpriced and the HD suspension is too road-oriented, and Ford shook out between these with power to spare. Moving to a superduty from a series of 1/2 ton pick-ups (still have two) meant that everything I was used to would be trumped by the bigger 3/4 ton--and as such, I would be impressed with this new truck. I think this would easily be the case if the dodge or the chevy sat in my driveway now. And, had I got one of those "monday trucks"--I may have dumped the brand altogether by now. This particular truck is a peach. If I drive the wheels off it--I will put them back on to do it again!

Joe M
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 13:54:32 (ZULU)

I'm with you Joe. Had I gotten one of the others I probably would have been happy, but, I'm glad I got this. I'd been driving 1/2 tons for 8 years. I had been happy with my old 3/4 and 1 ton's. I almost bought a new one, but when I recocered from the King Ranch sticker shock, I spent two months looking for "This truck at this price" I bought it a year old with 28k miles for $22K. It's loaded with everything but the King Ranch leather, wheels, and emblems. I got a friend that want's to swap me his K/R wheels due to the higher tire prices and I'm considering it cause I'm running 36's and am wondering if a little less sidewall would take a little play out of the suspension "as an overall package" and steering feel.

Ken back before the power stroke ford still had GM beat but that Cummins turbo kicked but in pickup and with better milage. I had a friend with one. I could tow more, but he left me sitting in black smoke in the redlight to redlight. Thinking back, "Damn I used to be an even bigger redneck". At least I finally got out of the habbit of having the "Confederate Flag and gun rack" in the window, when they started stealing the guns. Now it's Harley Davidson but I still listen to a little Hank. HAHA CSA=Confederate Snipers of America

Disclaimer: This post is totally opinion and is not based on any actual facts. If you're offended, quit being a Yankee. LOL Taking cover now!!! Damn, where's Ol Sarge when you need him for some good SERE tactics!!!

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 14:59:31 (ZULU)

That recall Duman is talking about has been a well known thorn in the side of Powerstroke owners for years. I own a 99 7.3 diesel and have had relatively good luck with my truck. There are others that have had nothing but hell with theirs. There are lots of people that carry a spare CPS, camshaft position sensor, in the truck in case it dies along side the road, or in the woods. All it takes is a 10 MM wrench, if I remember right, to change one out.

Joe, this site, thedieselstop.com is a great place for info on your truck. I'd never replaced a clutch in anything and had mine go out several years ago. I printed out a step by step manual that someone had gone to the trouble to post, and had no trouble what so ever changing the clutch out. It was so detailed that it told me that I'd need so and so size wrench here, and a universal joint extension there. You can ask questions, and search years of data bases for whatever trouble you may encounter as well.

On another note, what's the best chronograph on the market right now? I have an Oehler 35P, but need another one as well. What I'm wanting to do, or my dad is rather, is to get both muzzle and downrange velocities at the same time.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 15:29:23 (ZULU)

Tony- there is a clearance specification that has to be set on the CPS on installation. Failure to do so may be helping out on additional failures. BTW- International built the 7.3 as the T444E engine. You can get most all the parts from International at 40-60% less than you'll spend at Ford. There are some parts sold only to Ford because they're specific to the Ford engine. Ask me about the wiring harnass sometime:((((((

One of the biggest problems I've observed with all the light truck diesels is folks who buy one and never read the directions on operation and maintenance. [Oil ain't necessarily diesel spec oil as one example.] Then they B&M about poor performance. Jack-leg mechanics are another source of problems.

KenM-believe you are very right on emissions crap. I look at what my electronic engine has cost in repairs in contrast to the mechanical engine and scream. BTW, I thought emissions specs (year of frame determines emissions requirements) doomed the glider kit? If wrong, please advise.

KenH-I do believe the 3208 Cat has a severe weight penalty WRT light trucks. Ford also wanted a wider engine operating range than (I think) Cat could/would provide-too cheap to install different trannys. Then there's emissions crap and factory capacity.

WR Moore
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 17:14:32 (ZULU)

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq66-1.htm

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 18:31:09 (ZULU)

WR, I'm not sure what you mean about a clearance spec. The one I replaced has no way to check any clearance. You uplug the wire, take the bolt out of the hold down clip, wiggle it until you can pull the sensor out, which may or may not kick your ass. Reverse the process. The sensor has, if I remember right, a slot in the plastic housing that lets it slid into the hold down clip. There wasn't any way to adjust clearance.

I don't remember anyone ever talking about a clearance spec when changing out a CPS, and it was talked about ALOT.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 20:25:36 (ZULU)

WR Moore, IIRC, glider kits are legit since it's not the factory building/registering them. Here's one for sale

http://www.cecilwilson.com/Trucks/2007PeteRotator.htm

It's not the solution for the large fleet, but for O/O's and small businesses, it beats Hell outta having a truck down for stupid reasons ie emmisions crap being broken. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 20:40:46 (ZULU)

With all the problems the new generations of diesel engines with EFI seem to be having, my 14 year old Cummins 5.9 with mechanical injection seems to be looking better and better. A friend says there's a big market for those engines - they keep getting rebuilt and dropped into newer platforms.

Mine only has 187,000 miles, with the Getrag 5 speed tranny and the original clutch.

Look like it might be around for a while.

The 2008 Ford Superduty with the V10 Triton tows the trailer up to Colorado for the summer. Cold nights where we spend the summer mean hard starts on a diesel, it's much quieter, and I don't much care what the gasoline costs.

But the old Dodge just keeps on ticking. It's about to need paint - maybe I ought to do a digital camo job on it...

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, December 7, 2007, at 22:39:15 (ZULU)

Tony-never messed with mine, but I have the factory manual. There's (IIRC) supposed to be a 0.010" clearance between the sensor tip and whatever on the camshaft triggers the sensor. The manual stresses the importance of the clearance-probably to keep from breaking the sensor.

The IH manuals on the engines are the way to go. My younger boy is a truck mechanic for one of the Northern Virginia counties and he has occasionally borrowed my manuals. Says they're way better than the Ford manuals.

WR Moore
Friday, December 7, 2007, at 22:51:32 (ZULU)

WR, does your manual tell you how to adjust the clearance, or for that matter, how do you measure it, since there's just the hole there when you pull the sensor out.

All everyone ever talked about was what I said above. Basically, take old one out, put new one in. There were several guys on that site who were diesel mechanics. I'm not questioning you or your son, just relating what was the accepted practice.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 00:27:36 (ZULU)

Lindy,

What about the 4 service hours for a plug change?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 02:32:27 (ZULU)

Travis: if you're talking about the Ford, it will have been traded before it needs the plugs changed.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 03:33:24 (ZULU)

Lindy,

I was talking about the V-10.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 04:09:12 (ZULU)

I was just sitting here, contemplating putting the heating pad on the big ole knots on my ribs that didn't heal right, while I was flipping through the channels. Happened upon the National Finals Rodeo. Why, exactly did I like riding bucking horses?

It didn't seems so violent and painful back then.

Well, better get some ammo loaded. Need to take the boy and my wife shooting in the morning.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 06:26:39 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

This oughta make your wife's model 77 a little more palatable.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 08:31:41 (ZULU)

mj & Ken M: If you perform an experiment by cutting down a barrel, sample at four lengths: Uncut, the shortest of interest and two fairly equally spaced in between. I'll need ACCURATE barrel length measurements. Keep any other factor that may effect bullet speed as constant as you reasonably can. Temperature, barometric pressure, cleanliness of barrel, ammo and ammo temperature jump to mind. If you only shoot at four lengths then ten shots at each length would be good.

CDC'
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 11:02:42 (ZULU)

In the news: The CIA destroyed video recordings of interrogations. It is suspected that the agency has - and intends to protect - secrets.

Shocking.

"Well, on second thought, let's not go to Camelot -- it is a silly place."_______Arthur from MP&THG

CDC'
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 11:50:37 (ZULU)

Tony-skimmed the electronics section of the manual just before I left for work. OK, the clearance (air gap) should be checked if there's erratic engine operation and on sensor change. Personally, if I was changing CMP sensors frequently, the check would be cheap insurance against an assembler in Indiana having a bad day on initial installation. The procedure takes up about 2 pages in the manual, but one is the worksheet to calculate clearance. What appears below is a grossly abreviated version, not to be used to perform actual measurements. Should take about 1 hour.

Now then, air gap between sensor tip and the trigger wheel teeth is nominally 0.026" with a variance not to exceed 0.008" measured at 4 places around the trigger wheel. This is determined by measuring to the top of the teeth with a depth mike or a dial calipher used as a depth mike and subtracting the corresponding measurement from the CMP sensor. There is a shim kit (with the CMP sensor?) of 2 shims 0.010" used to get the sensor as close as possible to the desired clearance.

If you measure the depth to the trigger teeth once, it isn't gonna change. Verifying the new sensor will maintain the correct air gap would be duck soup on any later sensor change. Measure from the shoulder to the tip and subtract from the depth measurement. Shim if required.

There was also mention about how the trigger wheel is timed when assembled to the cam drive gear and should never be removed or engine timing goes out the window.

WR Moore
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 12:50:36 (ZULU)

Travis I know what you mean. Why in the HELL would anyone want to get on the top of a bull whose pissed off about having his nuts tied up and a sissy milk cow bell around his neck. I'm not sure what makes them madder the ball tying or the demoralization of the bell "kinda like forcing a biker to dress in drag,"HaHA but I did it for 6 years. I finally quit when I rode at a 3 in a day buck out. Made the short go "kinda wished I hadn't" and on the last ride made the buzzer, got hung up for one bounce too many, went to the back "his area" and when my hand did come loose on the next bounce got thrown about 15 feet in the air landing on my upper back and neck with you guessed it, my balance hand still behind me. It tore my rotator so bad that the doctors said I wouldn't be able to keep my shoulder in during the rides anymore even after surgery. I've had 3 for it. I went 4 months not even being able to lift my own arm. Whenever I had to move it, I had to lift it with my other hand. It just hung there. It tore muscles and my broke scapula where they were attached to lift my arm. After they grafted the broken piece of scapula back to the bottom of my scapula and more rehab visits I can now use it almost normally. I got 1K for the second place and another buckle. Thank god my wife had insurance at her work. Between that, the knee surgerys, and a bad accident while picking up a bail jumper. It's a wonder I'm alive or can move. I can, however, tell you with better accuracy than the local weather man, when it's going to rain or starts to get cold. Why did I do it? For the same reason I crop dust. I'm addicted to adrenaline. I would just about bet you are too. What do you do to get your fix now?

BTW Who won the bulls and the all around or will that be tonight or Sunday. Are Adreano M. and the rest of the "south of the border boys" still kicking our American butts?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 14:08:16 (ZULU)

I got an idea, let's have discussions on what we think the best sniper round could be. .308, 30-06, 300Winmag, maybe even one of the 7mm's or .338's. Let's say .338 or less no holds barred. This will all be opinions so no one get bent out of shape about it. I've never owned a 7mm of any type but some of the heavier ones have got some pretty high BC's and heavy for a 7MM is relatively lighter than heavy for .308 so they can be pushed faster. Everybody ring in and let's get some good Q&A&BS going. If you want to quote facts that's great cause we might use them if we come up with a good Sniper Country wildcat.. I know this bends rule 3, but it might be interesting what we come up with. And, like rule 4 notes, there's a lot of brains and experience in this place, lets let them out of the box for a good think tank exercise. For 2000 readers a day if it's good enough, chip in 4 bucks each, get it build and submit it to the DOD. We might even make the TV show "Future Weapons".

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 14:50:11 (ZULU)

Alright Jeff, I'll bite.

Are we talking pure and simply based on the rounds performance, BC and other data OR are we talking about all around mobility, Weight, size, the expense of feeding it and round availability...

Are we talking a weapon that reaches out at distance like 1500 yards or one that holds a tight group at 500 yards?

Come on, a little more ground rules before the mud starts to fly bro... BWG...

DISCLAIMER.

BWG... the following is purely my opinion based on information i've learned from the internet, experienced and discussions with ssmautt people...<wink>(attempt at a Boston accent)

If we are talking about max effective range, I would have to go with the .338 Lapmag(8.6x70mm)( BWG. You didn't see that coming did you Joe? BWG)

Since according to the information I have been able to gather, glean and learn, since sadly I haven't been able to take it out as far as I would like, is that the .338 LM can consistently deliver hits out to 1300 yards according to an article I read by Al Paulson. I can't find another article I am thinking of, but at one point in the not so distant past I read that the Sako TRG-42 was suppose to be able to deliver consistent shots on a 9 inch head plate out at 1500 yards. Since I can't find it to quote it... thats definitely HEARSAY BWG... but worth mentioning...

The .338 according to the charts that I found is suppose to nicely split the difference between the .50 and the .300 winmag where the round goes subsonic. Higher down-range velocity means less sensitivity to crosswinds and it also has a flat trajectory and with good equipment it will group NICELY. It is good for anti personnel yet has rounds that are heavy enough to be used in an anti material role. Unfortunately on the downside its expensive to feed.

Anyways gents, Hope y'all are having a good day, I am going to head back to lurking...

Later

Morgue

One last note... if we are talking about cost, availability, consistency and the ability to shoot all day I would probably just stick with the .308 / 7.62

Mourge
Overseas, - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:31:36 (ZULU)

Doc H: The .338 WM stock you repaired came in yesterday. That pin looks pretty sturdy. Thanks a bunch. I owe you one.

CDC'
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:42:30 (ZULU)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch,

My Lady is most definitely interested in 'reaching out there'.

So to start her off, I gave her a ru- ruuu- well, it's an M77 MkII chambered in .223. It has the heavy stainless factory barrel, which isn't bad for starting with. But it has the laminated varmint stock. I'm planning on ordering a McMillan A-5 stock for her. I figured I'd give her the order form for a Christmas present, and she'll just have to wait for it to come in.

Also, trying to save up the scratch for a couple of those IOR FFP scopes. This is so that we can each be using the same scope, and practice together.

She really loves to get out there and just spend the day at the range, and is working on the 'putting the guys to shame'. The goal for her is 1000 meters, and F-Class comps.

We are just trying to work with what we have at the moment, not really much extra to play with. Anyone notice anything she is missing right off the hop, or have any suggestions as to what I can do to help her out? Santa is planning on leaving her a Mildot Master in her stocking as well, as soon as I can track one down and get it here in time. Thank you Bruce!

Anyways, just thought I'd put this out there, and see where it goes. Thank you for your help, and Fire For Effect.

God Bless, and Stay Safe,

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:48:56 (ZULU)

Mourge and CDC, sorry about that. You both entered whilst I was typing. Like you, I was just trying to bring the topic back to the general area of the Title.

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:54:40 (ZULU)

Morgue: apparently the Ministry of Defense in Britain agrees with your choice of caliber, because they have placed an order with Accuracy International for 540 AI AWs in .338LM, to replace all of their 7.62s.

Nice chunk of change, that.

It's a pretty impressive cartridge - if you can afford to shoot it.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 15:56:02 (ZULU)

re: Sniper cartridges

Canadian Forces is fielding a .338 LM (8.6mm × 70mm Lapua) rifle system too.

C14 Timberwolf - PGW Defence Technologies Inc.,

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-rifle-c14-timberwolf.htm

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 16:18:28 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Sounds like the Teams are moving that direction as well. They are looking at a couple choices. Personally I hope they go with the TRG 42. Its probably going to be relatively long road till it gets implemented, but hey I can say I bought it before they started considering it. BWG

Morgue

Mourge
overseas, - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 16:21:50 (ZULU)

Another Finger Rant!

You might want to read the below first.

This is very typical of "Blue" Northeast areas. Our Flatwoods Range went through this some years ago, after a B&E of the store they had at one time in J'ville. They hardly got anything back from NYC (where the guns were recovered).

It is common knowledge that most street level cops are pro Second Amendment, but Chiefs and Commissioners seem to go to the other side. Every year I have to remind folks that the IACP does not speak for the entire LE community.

Remember when we were first getting concealed carry permits in NC? There were Chiefs and Sheriffs having their officers out at protests against the legislation that would ensure "Blood in the Streets" in NC. Course, most of them were over in the center "Blue" section of NC. I don't think there has been yet a problem with any CCP holder in the state. I would like to know if there has been.

Now, the stop and frisk thing would not be a problem in NC. Any CCP holder is required to inform a Law Enforcement Officer that they are carrying if approached by them. It is a violation of the law not to.

As all cops know, all that is required of a "Stop and Frisk" ("Terry" Search) is reasonable suspicion, which is much less than Probable Cause, (what is required for an arrest). The Courts have been very generous to LEOs with "Terry Searches" because of the danger involved with close contact with suspicious persons.

In other words, IMO, this Mayor in PA is just making noise about a nonexistent problem. Such is the world of politics. If they "Stop and Frisk" folks without R/S will the courts uphold the stop as reasonable? Could be interesting.

S/F

Finger

Gun suit vs. U. Darby will cause ripples (PA)

Philadelphia Daily News ^ | Dec. 6, 2007 | WILLIAM BENDER

benderw@phillynews.com 215-854-5255

Delaware County attorney C. Scott Shields says Mayor-elect Michael Nutter's "stop-and-frisk" proposal for getting illegal guns off Philadelphia's streets is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Shields, the mayor of Rutledge Borough, plans to sue the city himself if Nutter implements the policy – just as soon as he gets done suing Upper Darby Township for what you might call its "take-and-keep" approach to gun control.

Shields is representing township resident Mary Welsch, who claims in a federal lawsuit before U.S. District Judge Juan R. Sanchez that police illegally took her deceased father's guns from her house, then refused to return them without a court order.

The township has agreed to give the 16 guns back to Welsch, her father's sole beneficiary, but she is pushing ahead with the civil rights suit in an attempt to have the department's gun-seizure policy declared unconstitutional.

If there is a ruling in the case, it could potentially set a precedent that impacts Philadelphia's ability to seize guns in certain situations, said Temple Law School professor David Kairys.

The lawsuit, filed in October, stems from an incident last summer, during which Upper Darby police cleared Welsch's Dennison Avenue home of firearms after her father shot himself to death with a revolver.

But, the suit states, police later refused to return the guns even though the death was ruled a suicide the next morning and the investigation was closed.

Ray Britt, a retired Upper Darby detective who served on the force from 1996 to 2004, said yesterday that uniformed cops were routinely instructed to seize legally owned guns when they responded to domestic disputes.

When the owners came to the station to get their guns back, Britt said, police typically told them that they needed to hire an attorney and get a court order. Some of those firearms were later resold to local gun shops, he said.

Police Superintendent Michael Chitwood Sr. said yesterday that his department will not return seized firearms without a court order or his personal approval. Those that aren't returned to the owners are destroyed.

The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the state attorney general's office are investigating aspects of the township's policy.

Those investigations are focused on activity that apparently predated Chitwood's arrival in 2005.

Upper Darby no longer resells guns to dealers. But its policy of confiscating firearms – sometimes solely for safety reasons – then requiring a court order before returning them could leave the township open to lawsuits from legal gun owners, said Widener Law School professor Wesley Oliver.

"It's very clear to me that her constitutional rights have been violated," Oliver said of Welsch.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, USA - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 17:47:51 (ZULU)

Someone in Pennsylvania needs to go back to law school. There's already case law in Pennsylvania that firearms are real property of the owner and to be returned to same-if they can be identified- after disposition of any court case.

WR Moore
Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 22:59:07 (ZULU)

CDC,

Glad I could help. Hope it holds together.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 23:05:26 (ZULU)

Better than a Police Scaner !

http://www.globalincidentmap.com/home.php

Regards,

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, December 8, 2007, at 23:08:49 (ZULU)

Serious winter gear question:

Are there thermal advantages to wearing (say) something like large goggles when walking into the wind / blowing snow in addition to the balaclava that I'm already wearing?

I usually wear corrective glasses but for on-foot commuting I could trade them for goggles if necessary.

The Oakley L-Frame goggles are supposed to be usable with prescription glasses. $35 from Cabelas

Thanks

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 00:52:30 (ZULU)

JEff,

You're definitely talking out of your ass on this one. We don't do anything to their nuts. The flank rope is well forward of their nuts. Keep in mind, one straw of semen from and NFR bull will go for over $3500! Nobody wants to endanger their nuts, or their health. Quit listening to bunny huggers. They don't know shit about livestock.

The bulls don't really care what you think of them, and the bell goes on the bottom of the bull rope. It's there for weight, to drag the rope off the bull at the end of the ride. In this day and age, it's more for tradition, than anything.

Only caught parts of last night's performance., So i'm not sure what the standings are. I'd like to see Jesse Bail win the bullriding and saddle bronc titles. Hell of a nice guy. I met him at the grocery store in Show Low, Az., back when he was living in Bellybutton, Az.. Hell of a nice guy.

I do recall seeing Royce Ford at the top of the bareback standings, though I'm not so thrilled about it. He's a prick. When I was at the Mountain state Circuit Finals in Cheyenne one year, he got drunk and started lipping off to people, so they locked him out of the motel room-NAKED. Well, they DID give him his hat.

It's wierd, not seeing Joe Beaver roping this year. Seems odd, having him as a commentator. I hope Adriano does well. Hell of a nice guy. I met him at Dodge City days back in '94 or so.

Lindy,

Who ya gotta blow to get ahold of the 7.62's they're replacing?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 01:25:43 (ZULU)

Travis: no idea what they're gonna do with all those L96s. They'll probably keep some of them for training - that's what the U.S. Army is doing with some of the M24s.

It'd be nice to get hold of some. My boss has one with 90,000+ rounds through it, almost all of which he shot - which probably has something to do with why he shoots pretty good. I think it's on its ninth barrel. Might be tenth. They shoot good for a long time, and a new barrel costs very little.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 02:19:12 (ZULU)

Cdn Forces is keeping their 7.62 Nato bolt guns for trng, which will reduce the wear on the 8.6x70 rifles. Probably also reduce the recoil fatigue on their snipers too :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 02:22:18 (ZULU)

Bull riding must be one of those activities that started out with, "Hey, dude, hold my beer while I try something...."

For those of you with experience with 338-LM, would you recommend the TRG-42 or the AI? and why?

Duman
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 03:21:47 (ZULU)

RE: 338-LM

Duman,I have a TRG-42 bought it a few years ago, and I wouldn't trade it for any other 338-LM out there. I would think about changing the stock for the factory folding stock that is out there. Wish I had known about it when I bought it originally but I wouldn't trade the gun. That doesn't mean that I won't pick up another one at some point, For instance I am thinking about picking up a surgeon receiver, a good barrel and custom stock... its not high on the priority list, but its on there somewhere...

Personally I like the fact that the TRG is customizable with an allen key and you are able to purchase spacers to adjust the cheek weld. You can adjust the trigger pull to feather light for bench or add some to the pull with a couple twists of the allen wrench. The butt of the stock can be adjusted 15 degrees either way I believe, and it can be slid up or down to make it a more comfortable fit.

I have heard good things about both the AI and TRG from others who have used both and what I think it really comes down to which one fits you best. I don't think You can't really go wrong with either one. IMHO

Morgue

mourge
overseas, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 03:39:50 (ZULU)

Duman, there's a pretty good article in, I think last months, Combat Arms, comparing the TRG, and AI .338's. Basically like Morgue says, it comes down to whatever you like.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 05:13:08 (ZULU)

If you have a couple of minutes, it is interesting to go to youtube and put the words Muslums Report Duty! in the search box. Listening to it is worthwhile and clicking around in the associated links is well worth the time. Email the link to a Lib.

Anybody who thinks that our problems end when Bush leaves office is whistling past the grave yard. These people are willing to do what it takes to put your head on a plate.

CDC'
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 05:38:12 (ZULU)

Diesel country...yeah, a bit off topic; but isn't it freakin' amazing at the depth and breadth of knowledge this little bar has in its collective noggin?

Jeff: There is no perfect round for sniping. The 7.62x51 has its place from what Morgue said---it is prolific because it is prolific. The military will always gravitate to commonality. And, while you can juice up .30 cal to really get out there fast, the 308 is easy on barrels. Less wear and tear is yet another reason the 308 hasn't gone away yet. But as we all know, this round has its limitations. Your question was purely sniping (not target shooting)---and that has two flavors--LE and mil. Mil will settle on two, maybe three calibers for target interdiction--and LE could have as many calibers as there are departments. Most follow where other tread--and that is the 308. But I've seen a couple of other choices over the years too. But in the end, when it comes to military operations, consideration has to be given to logistics. The 308 is on the low end of penetrating light armor for machine guns; it allows a slightly lighter over all design and is easier on barrel life--al compromises, of course. But, because we are invested so heavily in 308 brass, it follows that this cartridge would be "improved" a bit for our sniper systems. Sure--there are better choices in any given environment, but as long as LC is cranking out these hulls--so to will be topping them with SMKs and chambering our accurized sticks for it.

Right now, we go from 308 to 50 cal. Our M24s are LA recivers in case we ever wanted to rebuild to 300WM; but with folks eying the 338 as the "in-between" choice--the 300 is idled (basically since 88 or so:)) Anyway, the tail literally wags this dawg on the army side, and most (not all) LE follows suit due to all the development that went with the army's choice.

Now, if long range target interdiction/ paper punching is the question, for individuals with no regard to cost or availability--that opens up a whole big huge can o' worms.

I'd put my vote in for the .260 rem. I like it, sort of a souped up, heavier hitting varmit round that I can watch thru my scope.

Ruger M77: Long gone. She now has a GAP (SCLE), a winnie, a Tikka and a brace of Vaqueros with a Uberti '73 replichester. She had the rugggg before she met me. I cured her of that problem:))

Sean: I dunno what twist the ruger 223 has--but if it isn't 1:8 or faster, she will have a hard time getting out to 1000 with it. You need to use the 75s minimum, 77s or 80s to get there. The longer heavies need to be spun fast! Still, it is a good starter--minuscule recoil, and a fairly accurate round to 500yds with a 1:9 (usual twist rate). It will get her going without wearing her out. Once she has mastered this, you might want to consider looking for a used varmit rig in 308, and have that rebarreled to 260 or 243 (if recoil bothers her). Either will do better at a thou than 223---AMU records notwithstanding:))

And, I'd be interested in hearing what others think of putting a buger, err, I mean ruger into a Mcstock; I know what I think, and to put it kindly--it is a waste of a nice stock. You may want to see what kind of groups this thing can provide before going there...

Joe M
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 05:43:37 (ZULU)

Joe M: McStock on a Ruger is throwing good money after bad.

CDC'
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 05:58:00 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

I've liked the 77 since I first held one, but I'm no expert at all. I'm still a preschooler, as far as shooting goes.

In your opinion, is there anything about the 77 that is better than a model 70 or 700? I've pretty much decided my next bolt gun will be a model 70 or 700, mostly due to parts availability and smiths that really know how to make them shoot.

I'm kinda leaning towards the 700, so I can modify it for detachable mags.

Everyone else that knows, feel free to pile on.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 06:01:55 (ZULU)

Any of you tried www.shootersproshop.com ? (CLICK) Pretty good site. I like the "seconds" section. Here in Kansas, I don't exactly have to take a 700 yard shot to kill a deer. Nothin' wrong with second quality bullets at 200 yards. I don't care if the tip is dinged on some of them. Good way to try premium bullets at a good price-for under $10 a box.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 07:30:43 (ZULU)

You guys were up pretty late. When does this bar close?

Travis, WRT Ruger, it's a rifle that will (almost) always go 'bang'. As far as accurizing, upgrading with McStocks, etc., it's a dead horse that's been tenderized repeatedly. But, that's one thing we do well.... beat dead horses.

Bartender! 'nother round!

Duman
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 12:07:41 (ZULU)

The M24 is history. The Army sniper rifle is now the SM110/SR25/Mk 12 SASS, or whatever they are calling it today. Still lots of M24s around, and that's what you'll see if you go to sniper school, but that's not what you'll deploy with.

What we see with special ops teams is a mixture of those with some Mk 13 Mod 2 or Mk 13 Mod 5.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 12:41:36 (ZULU)

re: Ruger 77, action choices:

I have to agree wih Duman. I got a Ruger 77 MKII in .308 Win to shoot sub-MOA several years ago, but there are easier ways to go. Replacement brl, replacement trigger, bedding were the major upgrade elements. I couldn't readily use it for long range because at the time there were no mounting solutions available to create a 20MOA elevation offset for the optics and the Ruger integral ring bases. (There are today). Aftermarket parts and gunsmithing knowledge points at other answers like the Model 700, Win 70 or the Savage 10 (Stevens 200).

My current longrange stick (F class) is a customized Savage 110.

I'm presently advising a friend who wants to build a long range stick to start with a Stevens 200 in .308 Win. Probably upgrade w/aftermarket trigger and rework/replace the stock. That still leaves lots of money to get a decent mount and optics. If he later wants to rebarrel to match-grade or say a .260 it will be as simple as it gets for a fixed-barrel bolt gun.

Stevens 200 in .308 Win sugg retail is $US336.

http://www.savagearms.com/stevens200_pressrelease.htm

Stevens, a registered trademark of Savage Sports Corporation, introduces the new Stevens Model 200. The new Model 200 carries the spirit of fine workmanship and honest value and is designed to meet the requirements of hunters and sportsmen who are particular about their equipment and insist upon the best value available.

Featuring a dual pillar bedded, gray synthetic stock, with a button rifled free-floating barrel, the Stevens Model 200 is the best value in a bolt-action rifle. Offered in a variety of calibers, in short or long action, it's the perfect rifle at a reasonable price.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 13:27:08 (ZULU)

pre-amble - My post is meant to stimulate some discussion...

Lindy wrote - "The M24 is history. The Army sniper rifle is now the SM110/SR25/Mk 12 SASS, or whatever they are calling it today."

Does it strike anyone else that the above switch to a gas gun marks a transition from the 'silent stalker, one shot - one kill sort of psyops /recon role' to more of a designated shooter as an asset supporting some manner of combat arms force?....

In short...do we see snipers being retasked as designated marksmen due to the need presented in current ops? What happens to the perishable skills associated with the 'scout sniper' role with the overt switch? Would it make more sense to broaden scope and train / equip for both missions? Are the forces selecting a .338 Lapua arm perhaps making a more well rounded decision on force structure (retaining already fielded M16 20" as DMR)?

medicjim
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 14:17:11 (ZULU)

Jim: "Designated Marksman" is a term which primarily applies to a precision shooter in an infantry squad.

Snipers can certainly do the tasks associated with that position, but the reverse is not true.

After a sniper has mastered the fundamentals, a bit of additional training in using the scope reticle for holdovers/holdunders is all that is necessary to fight effectively with a precision rifle at shorter distances against multiple targets at multiple distances.

The sniper's traditional role in deep insertions to gather intelligence has been de-emphasized by UAVs both large and small, as well as other airborne and space reconnaisance assets.

Going to a larger caliber like the .338 LM is not only useful for longer shots, but also barrier penetration in urban areas even at relatively short distances.

In urban areas, you may see 4 man teams of a spotter with a semi-auto, a shooter with a larger caliber - .300WM or .338LM - and a couple of guys with M4/203s or maybe a SAW for security.

I would say that the sniper's role has expanded.

The requirement for precision fire, though, remains - as targets at relatively short distances are likely to be small areas of an enemy behind cover or concealment.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 14:49:49 (ZULU)

RE: medicJim

Disclaimer... BWG... we called this a bar right?

Bro, IMHO the reason for the switch from a bolt gun to a semi auto rifle isn't because we are switching from a sniper role to a more designated marksmen type role but is because we are getting extremely good precision out of the semi autos that was once thought only to be found in a bolt rifle. this trend means that we aren't losing anything really but we are gaining the ability to make faster follow up shots and engage multiple targets in a shorter amount of time. This has been proven several times in engagements in the Box. I know of more than a couple times where Positions were getting rushed and the boys were able to send accurate overwhelming fire into the opposition and drive them back while sustaining no injuries to our boys... this wouldn't have been as easy if they had been armed with bolt weapons. IMHO...

I heard that a couple years ago the team that took the army marksmanship competition was running the SR25... they won... not solely on accuracy but on the ability to rapidly engage the targets in such a manor as to clean the course in a record setting time... then they added in the penalty shots... and they still won...

Anyways gents, there is a time and a place for a bolt gun just like there is a time and a place for a semi automatic gas gun... it comes down to what you are about to place in your crosshairs... maybe its because I like the ability to rapidly change magazines while sending rounds down range, or maybe its because I just like having a semi auto gas gun that epitomizes a accurate long distance precision rifle...

IMHO it can be simplified down to what you were trained on or raised on really is going to be what you prefer. I learned on iron sights but I have always liked the ability to choose exactly where I am placing my shot. Hence once I was able to buy glass for my rifle...

Gents... its getting late out here... so I am going to get back to lurking... and sleeping BWG...

Later gents...

Morgue

Mourge
overseas, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:10:25 (ZULU)

I meant to dig a bit deeper...I'll be more specific on a few points Lindy brought up...

If the sniper is playing the DMR role in most of his assigments over a period of time...what's to keep the unit commander from becoming accustomed to using snipers in ONLY this manner? What effect does this have on the organic DMR role...does that role get re-absorbed? Does this reduce the benefit / responsiveness to the squad?

Does it make sense to de-emphasize 'deep penetration / HUMINT' capabilities because we appear to have an ELINT alternative in many (not all) cases? What happens to the perishable skills? What happens when the enemy adapts and foils the ELINT asset on a broad scale?

Is the US military purchasing a .338 asset in the volumes that might be required for future mission taskings? Will the shooters be proficient with the rifle if most of their time is spent behind the .308 gas gun? Will the optic chosen for the .338 be the best solution or will it be a compromise weighted dis-proportionately toward the gas gun solution?

Just a few... this can of worms is big and worth kicking around here on SC IMO

DMR - I'm using this term kinda fast and loose.. If the shooter is sending multiple rounds down range.........seeking to engage an enemy force potentially reacting to his fire rather than E&E... you get the idea.

medicjim
Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:12:16 (ZULU)

RE: medicJim

It was my experience when I was in the box last deployment that the people in charge didn't understand what a snipers role was... near the end of my deployment they were using us as overwatch on the roads... which wouldn't have been a bad thing if they didn't continually run tanks and Helos over the road trying to scare off our targets... Talk about annoying... we almost got lit up by a tank because he didn't see our IR marker from where he was coming in from... talk about pucker factor... The IR buzz saw came out REALLY fast on that one...

in regard to optics... I know where I am we are moving to NFO across the board. Either the 3-15 or the 5.5 - 22 zero stop model... I think the goal is to get everything the same across the board as much as possible...

As to the 338 thing, trigger time is trigger time, as long as the snipers are getting enough time on the gun, and they are able to get out on the 338 enough to get both the come ups and a feel for the weapon then they should be ok. Where the problems occure is when people are sent to theater without having sighted in there weapons systems and have no idea how the weapons are zeroed. IMHO

Anyways catch you later...

Morgue

Mourge
overseas, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:39:59 (ZULU)

A traditional metric for an accuracy requirement for a sniper rifle is that it should be able to shoot at or less than one MOA under the worst possible conditions.

The semi-auto sniper rifles being supplied by KAC are not capable of doing that, in the aggregate. SOME of them will, some of the time. With the suppressor on, most of them will not.

I'm not basing that opinion on tests of rifles hand-picked by the manufacturer, or on rifles selected and tuned for competition teams, but on experience with literally hundreds of production rifles.

Perhaps that standard is obsolete - that's for others to decide.

I wouldn't hesitate to deploy with one if I knew that most of my shots would be on relatively exposed human targets inside 700 yards. But you have to keep them clean, too. The suppressor aggravates receiver fouling.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:45:56 (ZULU)

RE: lindy

Honestly bro, If I were going into the field expecting to take a shot out near or past 800y I would break out my winmag. It was my experience that most of the time we were setting up to take shots that were inside 500y. Part of that was that we would set up in multiple positions set in such a way as to be able to support one another.

later bro,

Morgue

Mourge
Overseas, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:56:40 (ZULU)

Travis calm down partner. I put the obligitory HaHA in there to let you know I was kidding about the nut tying and bells. Iike I say I rode the small circuits here in the south for 6 years.

Morgue According to Wikipedia "not totally reliable but somewhat, sometimes" AI and Lapua beat us to this exercise and came up with the .338. I got to cross checking some of the likst in the .338 definition and read some real spacy out there stuff about the Haack shaped bullets and progressive rate twist barrels. Made for some interesting reading right untill it got to the, geometry meets physics formulas then it gave me a headache HaHA. It does sound like a great round. I'm thinking about what about if we take one of the .338 necked down to .30's using custom bullets of some hard A/P type stuff, wrapped in copper so it'll take to the rifling yet keep it at or under 210 grains so it's even faster than the .338 yet gets the BC out of the roof for an even flatter trajectory? Maybe?

Joe I understand your logistics problem. It'd really suck to have a gun in the field and have no bullets for it but it sounds like they're gonna give the .338 LM a try so why not our SC wildcat. Also, were gonna shoot enemy, "sometimes I feel like targets are an enemy LOL" so let's lean that way, but if it'll hit paper it'll hit people and the smaller .260 might be great for LE that usually don't need to shoot that far. What is it that you like about the .260? What kind of ideas do you have to better it. on your other topic, the Reggur, burgger.... Rugger shoots well enough for the distances most people shoot. I assume it's not going to be your competition gun, but dress it like you like, even if it's only for the familar feel of the stock. I watched a friend's son grow up shooting one in 243. The kid is a damn good shot, and when the shooting environment was perfect "stable rest, animal not spooked" head shot does with us at 400yds. He wasn't paying for the ammo and litterally wore the barrel out in 3 years shooting and practice. His dad gave him another one in 300Winmag. He could have had his choice of any gun in the store, or at home in the full safe, but he loved his Rugger. He has to buy his own ammo now so he hasn't worn that one out yet.

Rod you're not the only one who likes them. Check this out http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/long-range-rig.php

Medicjim could it be the current situation in Iraq and other places were in with the "overwatch" type jobs the snipers are getting that's making the military lean that way. IMHO It seems to me from what I see in the media, including the web, that we've got our guys doing mostly rooftop/LE type stuff at the moment. I hope we don't totally get away from the traditional training and then have a different kind of war. I think we should keep the two S/S and DM seperate, and have both. It seems historicly, that every time we get ready for one type of conflict, the next one we get into is different. WW I= trenches, WW II= vast movement in differing types of terain. Korea=not sure but snipers were almost nonexistant, Vietnam=jungles and rice paddies/movement by chopper, Iraq=Urban/motorized

Morgue you beat me to the overwatch thing while I was posting, but you were there, so I guess what I've seen from outside was close.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 15:57:43 (ZULU)

Hey guys, at least I got you talking. And thank you, at the same time.

Please, let me be clearer. My Lady's rifle is a 1 in 12 twist. I know it ain't going to get out there all that good. But the point is, it is what she is starting with. Not just the long range aspect, but the whole aspect of shooting. This is her first rifle, and I'm doing what I can within my means, to get her into the habits and whatnot of shooting. Our range here through the winter is only 200 meters. During the summer, we have 1000. The long range shooting is HER GOAL. As we can afford, we shall improve equipment for her.

Whilst some think we are trying to make a silk purse, I'm only working on a modest poke, just to get her going. So far, she loves to shoot, and she loves her rifle. She's not interested in 'spray and pray' or anything like that. She really wants to 'reach out there well'.

This is only a starter system. Till we can get/build her a better one. I'm going to take a jack plane to the laminated stock, just to get a better profile. Also, shorten the pull.

What is the heaviest bullet that you think we can stabilize in the .223, with the 1 in 12? And my apologies for buying this thing, it was in the mid nineties, before I knew anything.

It sure is good to see the poster's here though. Wondering if any more 'plankowners' are going to come out of the woodwork before Christmas?

I'll shut up now, and God Bless,

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Sunday, December 9, 2007, at 23:52:57 (ZULU)

RE:338 LM

Jeff I've got a link here somewhere that discusses the history of the round, I will see if I can find it to add to the tail end of the post but the gist of what I remember is that the military tasked someone to develop a round that fit into the midrange, smaller than a 50 but big enough to fill an anti material role within certain constraints. What was developed during this program was the 338. Now I can't tell you why the program stutter stopped since that is a good bit before my time, but the impression that I am under is that after the program stalled it was either sold to or finished by Lapua which continued to develop it and put its name on the tail end of what was then a wildcat.

As to training, I don't for see training shifting from where its at and whats being taught, to a course that focuses on the snipers role being an Over watch style job. The beauty of the courses that are out there are that they are taught by Snipers who have spent time down range, who have seen the bumbling BS from the shooters side. People who have learned some mistakes the hard way and learned leasons from the mistakes of others. These people come back and instruct are most likely going to add points to ponder into the course, or even start and advanced course that deals with lessons learned from this job profile.

The reason that the snipers are being used in the overwatch position IMHO is that you have commanders who are scared to loose people in their zone and instead of doing other things to detour the Insurgents they just grab an asset that on the surface was trained for this job and put them out. In doing this they forget what the Snipers job is and in their own mind they have found a job that they understand and have now assigned to someone that previously they didn't have an F@$King clue how to use, and still don't.

BWG. Rant done.

I found the link I was talking about, and ironically its to the Lapuas home page.

http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=889

another link on the subject

http://www.custer.com.au/Lap/338magnumstory.php

Morgue out

Here is a link on the338LM from Al Paulson which deals specifically with the TRG-42.

http://www.canadiantactical.ca/PaulsonArticle2.html

Mourge
Overseas, - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 01:51:04 (ZULU)

.223 Rem and 1/12 twist barrel

Typically about the heaviest .224 dia projectile that will be properly stabilized in a 1 in 12 twist barrel in .223 Rem is 63g.

http://www.accuracyarms.com/Shelin_Twist.htm

Speer says their 62g FMJBT .224 projectile needs a 1 in 10 twist.

So you're probably limited to a 55g .224 Boattail projectile.

(boattail have better ballistic coefficient, critical for long-range trajectory).

For the sake of argument, let's pick a high ballistic coefficient 55g .224 projectile and launch it at a safe velocity for .223 Rem...

A high ballistic coefficient 55g .224 projectile is the Sierra Blitzking - stock #1455.

Sierra Quoted BC's:

.271 @ 3100 fps and above

.264 between 3100 and 2550 fps

.250 between 2550 and 2050 fps

.236 between 2050 and 1800 fps

.224 @ 1800 fps and below

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&stock_num=1455&bullettype=0

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

If the 55g BlitzKing is launched at 3240ft/sec, the calculated drops with a 100yd zero are:

yds MOA

--- ---

600 14.7

700 21.0

800 29.0

900 39.0

1000 51.0

How much elevation adjustment MOA do you have in your chosen optic?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 02:17:35 (ZULU)

Lindy (you know this already--but consider this just my 02 on the subject for the heck of it): The 110 is being fielded, but don't write the 24 off so quickly. The regular army might have to swap one for oneas they become available--but the units I served in from time to time tended to be pack rats. When the 24 first came along--we kept the M21/ 25s around for several valid reasons. But we also carried the 24 for particular missions--it all depended. My guess is that the 110's weight and the SR25s history, let's face it--they have a much bigger order to fill than ever before--and they muffed the small ones already--all this will keep those 24s on a short leash. SOCOM units will leep theirs, and probably go and buy new bolt guns just because.

One compromise position discussed at a damned high level (ops conference, chaired by army-3) was to have both 110s and 24s on hand, as the drive to the 110 is heavily influenced by Iraq, the siege mentality that set in during 2004/ 2005--and little else anywhere else.

If the 110s can get the same grad rates thru Rick's course, then maybe it has a chance. But as I see it (from just a little eyes-on history)--the change won't fully happen until it is beyond all doubts that it can happen. That is not yet certain.

If you doubt this--just look at all the M14/21/25s in Iraq and afghanistan today.

Oh damn....I just read your later post, Lindy....I think we see this the same. Oh well. Just when I was getting spun up:)) I'll leave it as is with a diclaimer on top...

MedicJim: Commanders at all levels had an orchiotomy when it came to deplying snipers in a HUMINT role in Iraq. They are scared of casualties, and deathly afraid of captures. It is as much a product of the promotion system as it is the politicizing of the war by the left. I hate that this happens--but then, I can't find it in my heart to blame these guys. A loss of anyone under your responsibility is a major loss of sleep for life. That takes care of the relative few who know what snipers are for---the rest only think they know. BKS hears this one every day and night for years. Morgue hit these poitns already...I really should read all the way thru instead of typing as I go...

No...a 1:12 223 is not going to a thou.

Another discalimer: I was never slotted as a sniper---just filled in as a spotter after attending and barely making the grade in the CAT II SOTIC at Devens back in the 80s. I never really focused on that, as i also had split-team duties with target analysis, engineer, commo, and EMT-level medical stuff. I was expected to shoot well and adjust a second round onto targets--but the other stuff ate my time wholsesale. OCS ended all that fun and games for many years (until Iraq, actually). Still, it was fun being that lieutenant who out-shot the whole damned battalion. On the team, I was average. In the regular army--average was pretty damned good. But, my opinion on things related is just an opinion--I am learning this art now (because I didn't bother back then:)).

That little one-sided viewpoint might also tell us something about the state of training overall. Ya'll do know that even if a soldier (stateside) fired his weapon once a month--it would be a huge improvement?

Of course, if that happens---the price of ammo will do more than the 50% price insrease we've seen already. And all that shooting in Iraq? Not helping much. I would shoot at every opportunity--I mean at designated ranges. I'd just break out the oldest mag loads and verify my zero and hold overs at differing altitudes, etc. I swear, the guys with me would freak out---their basic load was off limits for such things. They needed to get "training ammo" and permission to do this. So, my immediate answer was to go out with a few cases of ammo so the guys I rode with could play too. Call it self preservation rather than good will or good leadership; having the knowledge that the guys with ya were in fact zeroed made me feel better. Cuz Morgue is spot-on--this was not a prerequisite for combat ops in many places. And I was never above bending the rules back into making sense.

My head hurts...i could go on about why this happens...I probably have over the years...but it isn't going to change for years (the kids in Iraq need to grow up and become CSMs and LTGs for meaningful changes). So, time to lighten the mood:

I wonder if this thing will work on cats?...click my name.

Joe M
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 04:40:31 (ZULU)

Mourge My wife's gonna hate you next season when she notices another gun in the closet. Interesting and convincing reads.

Joe M Hope you feel better now. LOL Going and shooting some will make you feel better too. I saw that earlier, can't remember who posted it but it's hillarious. Wife and daughter didn't think it was, so that confirmed that it had to be funny.

Going to MSSA tomorrow to meet a couple of guys from here if it's not raining. Still got 300 rounds of that LCM to burn so I can reload it all. Should take me 10 weeks at my average rate. Plus my standard 5 a day with the 300 RUM. I'll be glad to start shooting the .308 more due to the lower cost of reloading. Uses 1/2 as much powder.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 05:22:48 (ZULU)

Ok Ya'll,

Yuv done and got me to come out from under my rock with this .338 thing. I can/have consistently hit a 10 inch target at 1400 yds with my AR 30. While I wouldn't consider a .338 lapua for everyday work it's a great round past 800 or so. In my mind it picks up where the .308 starts to become problematical. It's a great round, now only if it was a little cheaper.....it would be perfect.

Stay safe

Calvin

PS hey mourge, good to see ya posting again, stay safe

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 14:06:33 (ZULU)

Hey Calvin,

Yeah i've been lurking for a while, it took a subject near and dear to bring me out from under my bush. BWG...

Out of curiosity gents where do you generally pick up your reloading stuff. I have been looking around a little bit and since I have been ordering some ammo from Midway I checked out there misc reloading stuff. They are selling 338 brass for between $175 and $200 depending whether or not you go with Norma brass or Lapua brass...

If I didn't have a good enough motivation to reload before, I sure do now based mainly on the price of rounds vs the price to reload rounds...

Morgue

Hey out of curiosity what rounds are you running and what is your dope out at that distance?

Mourge
Overseas, - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 14:40:04 (ZULU)

Kabumei: The ultimate martial art. Click on my name for the link. It's a short video, so you might want to pass if you're on dialup - or at work.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 15:06:12 (ZULU)

Mourge - email sent, no attachements - re: reloading for your rifle

medicjim
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 15:15:03 (ZULU)

JoeM: "orchiotomy"....... ouch.

You have a way with words.

Duman
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 15:28:55 (ZULU)

Hey Mourge,

I'm running 85 gns of accurate 3100, cci large mag riffle primer,lapua brass under a sierra 250 gn gameking. This combo works for me but your mileage may vary. I get stuff from where ever it's cheapest, midway or midsouth or where ever...

Just looked in the ol' data book and I'm using around 49 moa to get to 1400 with the above load.

It's good to know your still sucking wind my friend.

Stay safe and stack em' like cord wood !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 18:52:21 (ZULU)

Calvin,,,,do like I do. Take the oldest rifle out of the gun cabinet and hide it somewhere she won't look. Oh, belay that. They know where EVERYTHING is. Of course, when Boudica left, that became moot. Of late, she has decided that she acted in haste and the I'm not to blame for her mid-life crises, and we're working out a rapproachment. Of course, it comes just as I find out I'm leaving to Afghanistan for a year, but better late than never. I just got word a few minutes ago that I'm definitely in for thenext rotation of Armorgroup Embassy security personnel to Kabul. Hot damn! I'm happier'n a puppy with two peckers.....no more barking dog calls and "my 8-year-old won't mind me, and I want you to give him a stern talking to!" bullshit. No more getting written up on IA complaints because I ate a sandwich on duty. Bye Bye to that shit. ON to new shit, but at least it'll have the novelty factor to keep it bearable.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 19:29:38 (ZULU)

Which one of you maniacs will be first?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070209-wingsuit.html

TRICK QUESTION...

http://www.ussportsmen.org/Read5.cfm?ID=2162&legdocs=LN

What is the correct answer and why.... this one will drag Bravo out of hiding for sure...if he is out there.

medicjim
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 20:45:21 (ZULU)

Hey Chuck,

You must have me confused with someone else... I don't have to hide no steenking guns from Harriet ! ( and you know that bro ) Crongrats once again on the change of life !

Medic Jim,

I'll take a stab at your question... The creator of the universe set it up so men can/should be armed. The second amendment to the bill of rights merely codifies that fact. The right to be armed is a natural right that predates any feeble attempt to limit it...

That's my thoughts on that subject.

Stay safe all !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 21:07:26 (ZULU)

Give that man a prize from the top shelf. Kinda frightening that 98 percent of the respondents answered yes....the question is very poorly worded.

medicjim
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 21:12:20 (ZULU)

Charles: good luck and be safe in Kabul.

OTOH, having had family living around SA for 40 years, I suspect that you're going to be safer there than riding around SA in a patrol car. :-)

I hope the reconciliation works out, too. That process is painful, even when it works out OK in the end.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 22:26:29 (ZULU)

Chuck,

I loved my Police career, but you will not believe the weight that will lift from your shoulders when you pull the plug and turn in your gear.

Just stay sharp and keep your head on a swivel.

Come by when you are in town.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, December 10, 2007, at 22:40:06 (ZULU)

HELLLLLLOOOOOO Snapper Country! And you other grassbellies LOL!

Oh, now that just figures. Here I’ve been barking up the right tree all along.

So now ‘big green’ is moving from the boltguns to the gasguns. OK – fine. That being the case, I still prefer an M25 to a ratgun LOL! Yes, I know there are downsides, but there are upsides too.

Just about the time I start to see the light, and figure maybe I ought to be moving the boltgun rebarrel project off the back burner, you guys go and say “yesterday was chocolate, it’s vanilla today!” That’s fine. As I can, I’ll still rebarrel the Winny – and it’s going to STAY in ‘260 magnum’, or as it’s been called the last 113 years, the 6.5X55 Swede. I just take mine with extra powder!

Well fine. I’m behind the times, and probably always will be. I like old cars, old rifles, old music, and – what was I saying?

And now I find out the 338 Lapdog is the best round out there. Well harrumph! I don’t have the dough to start another caliber at the moment, but if I did the AR30 sure looks nice. Maybe I’m biased, as the AR30 is the little brother of the REASON I don’t have the dough for another caliber.

On the M25 / ratgun thing though, didn’t Master Rick say that he’d never had one of either type finish his course?

I know he warned me that my ARMS rings were gonna fail – and they did.

Yeah Jim, I’m here (GRIN). I’m like Elvis – EVERYWHERE (but mostly eating jelly doughnuts while “working” on a Nevada road crew) LOL! OK, so there are some people that were simplifying. Calvin got the right answer. I got one of those stupid polls the other day, and griped at the pollster for asking stupid questions. Which one would I vote for, hitlary or mcstain? Neither. Oh, you wouldn’t vote? Don’t get me spooled up. The national propaganda and disinformation centers are working over the sheeple big-time... er, yeah, I’m not gonna get spooled up. Yet ;-) Drop Ron Paul a donation on the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party.

And for those of you who haven’t heard the news yet, my boy just BARELY missed the qualifying Marksman score. Not that he didn’t shoot well enough, he just didn’t get all the rounds down range in the rapidfire segments. Blame that on me, he’s running a single-shot boltgun. Not bad at all. Hopefully I’ll be buying a Marksman medal for him before his eleventh birthday – if not, well before his twelfth.

Bravo
Monday, December 10, 2007, at 23:20:56 (ZULU)

MedicJim Roller Skates. If the problem is with the forward motion at the flare just give'em some roller skates. You go first I'll be right behind you....lol

JC Thanks again for the shooting today and the Scenars. I really enjoyed my self. Just checked my humidore, SADDLY, I'm out of OpusX. I thought I still had a few. Maybe Cohiba, Montecristo, or some AFuente GR's of some type will do? I thought I'd never say this, but I've also got some Macanudos that I actually recomend.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 00:21:29 (ZULU)

Movie alert:

"Charlie Wilson's War" opens 21-Dec-2007 in the theaters.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472062/

(based on the non-fiction book)

A drama based on a Texas congressman Charlie Wilson's covert dealings in Afghanistan, where his efforts to assist rebels in their war with the Soviets have some unforeseen and long-reaching effects.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 01:10:52 (ZULU)

A comparison of Sako TRG and AI 338-Lapua Magnums:

http://demigodllc.com/articles/military-338-lapua-rifles-trg42-awsm/

Duman
Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 01:26:39 (ZULU)

Jeff....give a try at a Carlos Torano Silver Exodus, Toro. Good afte lunch smoke. The Partagas Gold label is a bit more "fuerte", but is an excellent after dinner smoke, with a sweet little 20-year old. Scotch, that is. Laphroaig with a drop of water and a Partagas....ahhhh.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 04:42:50 (ZULU)

Jeff,

Enjoyed it as well. Would've enjoyed it more with some better weather. We probably ought to do it again before long. Hope the Scenars work out for you. Never could get 'em to run like I wanted in 308 or 300WSM. No sweat on the smokes. I've got a good supply of Cohibas and Montecristos (the ones from that south of Florida) as well as plenty of A. Fuentes. Kinda partial to the AF Don Carlos #3 and the Hemingway Signatures. I've been smoking some Montecristo Afrique cigars that ain't half bad. Only place I know that has 'em is J.R. Cigars. All African tobacco with a Cameroon wrapper. Pretty good for a $2 smoke.

Charles,

Try some Dalmore Cigar Malt sometime. Nice single malt made especially for sippin' with a good cigar.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 05:24:39 (ZULU)

Guys,

What kinda bullets would you suggest to save money for practice at 100 yards. Of late, my shooting (rifle AND pistol) has gone completely to shit.

Where is a good source of non-precision bulk bullets? I need to be putting hundreds of rounds downrange for a few months.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 06:16:00 (ZULU)

Gents,

I have a couple of Doctor optics that were... a couple guys dove them and their weapons and well lets just say they got wet and due to that and the ensuing rust, since they weren't properly cleaned afterwards, they no longer work. I have been trying to find a direct contact with the manufacturer but everything I've found hasn't worked. I want to find out about warranties. Does anyone know where I could find the contact info for Doctor Optics?

Thanks

Morgue

"Anyone who clings to the historically untrue, and thoroughly immoral, doctrine that violence never settles anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler would referee. Violence; naked force, has settled more issues in history than any other factor and the contrary is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forgot this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and with their freedoms." -Robert Heinlein

Mourge
Overseas, - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 08:15:10 (ZULU)

Go to youtube.com and search for "nutty buddy" to see just how tough I am.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 10:22:48 (ZULU)

Fucking mall ninja moron, trying to show how to disarm. I'd LOVE to help him demonstrate.Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 10:44:48 (ZULU)

Travis:

What projectile diameter do you want for rifle? Remington and Winchester produce bulk-packaged rifle projectiles that you can purchase in case lots. The Rem FMC 55g .224 is pretty nice, as is their SP 165g .308 projectiles. Midway, Natchez etc as retailers.

I've also played with a reduced .308 Win loading using .30 carbine 110g SP projectiles driven to around 2000+ ft/sec, good 100yd accuracy. Feeding is a bit fussy because it's not very close to a spitzer shape, ok for slow fire practice.

Jeff Bartlett sells pulled projectiles from contract teardown mil-spec ammo.

Remember to add in shipping costs when comparison shopping.

http://www.gibrass.com/projectiles.html

"C" = 100 - "M" = 1000

Item Description

.224 diameter

55 gr. Brand new Sierra production, 55gr Varminter. Sierra #1360.

Sierra $12/100; $55/500; $100/M

.308 diameter

110 gr. Original application is U.S. .30 Carbine Ball M1. This is a FMJ round nose.

Carbine These bullets are collet pulled, however, some may show circular rings on

Ball M1 the ogive caused by occasional over-tightening of the collet. This creates

no problem with loading nor affects accuracy. They are polished and in

very nice condition.

$8/C; $75/M; $210/3M

152 gr. Original application is Cal. 30 Ball M2 (.30-06). Getting to the end of the supply.

Ball M2 These are a flat base spitzer, mixed lots, collet pulled, cleaned and polished.

Look brand new.

$10/C; $80/M; $300/4M

173 gr. Original application was 7.62mm MATCH M118 (loaded 1963-1982). Starting in

MATCH M118 late 1982, nomenclature was changed to 7.62mm NATO Special Ball M118. Special

Ball M118 was discontinued in 1995. These bullets are collet pulled (no marks)

and polished. Excellent condition. Exact same bullet used in the .30-06 Match.

$20/C; $180/M

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 10:57:28 (ZULU)

********************SPEW ALERT***********************

Click. Funniest commercial EVER!

And one we can all appreciate:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krhB_An8fT4

Actual truth in advertising:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTvwwDnrQL8

Tanya Harding actually worried about her image?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEbqrpMn_6s

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 10:57:54 (ZULU)

Docter Optik - German

http://docter-optics.de/hp727/Homepage.htm

Contact

Docter Optics GmbH Headquarters

Mittelweg 29

07806 Neustadt a. d. Orla Tel.: +49 3 64 81-27-0

Fax: +49 3 64 81-27-270

info at docteroptics.com (change at => @)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 11:35:57 (ZULU)

hey Rod,

Thanks for the information. Appreciate it.

Morgue

Joe M. email inbound.

Mourge
Overseas, - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 14:56:29 (ZULU)

Jc....thanks for the tip. I'll give one a try.

Mourge, Robert Heinlein was probably one of the most prescient men I've ever had the pleasure to read. The entire message of "Starship Troopers" was shitcanned when they made the movie, so they could afford to shovel in more special effects. You want the francise, join the military and put the welfare of the whole in front of your welfare for at least one hitch, then you can vote.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 15:24:35 (ZULU)

Amen Chuck, I think it would solve several problems if we went to a similar system.

Morgue

Mourge
overseas, - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 15:26:57 (ZULU)

Starship troopers - There was another subtle nuance in there too... when you earned the right to vote, you also earned a special title....citizen. His vision of the immediate future, implied while in the distant future (the setting of the book).... could still come true.

"people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted... and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears."

medicjim
Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 16:19:02 (ZULU)

re: SF and predictions

SF can function as a cautionary tale. "If you keep heading that direction, this is what can happen...". It's generally not written to be preachy, but to tell a good story.

Sometimes the picture scares people enough that they take a different direction.

My experience with the genre - things don't change as fast as predicted in the short term, but they do change faster than predicted in the long term.

I'm not sure that RAH originated the concept of military/alternate service to gain citizenship, but he seems to have written the most about it in his fiction. Would probably be a lot less old men sending young men to war if such was a prerequisite.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 16:33:31 (ZULU)

"people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted... and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears."

I have a close relative that lives in the Rogue Valley in Oregon. He claims that the people of his area voted to reduce taxes by eliminating funding for things like schools, public libraries, municipal services (to include Law Enforcement)...the consequences are pretty interesting. I'll go out on a limb and bet that the next referendum will re-instate some of those tax funded services...

Mourge - I sent an email back to you with no attachments.

medicjim
Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 16:46:41 (ZULU)

New public service sign. Click my name.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 18:04:07 (ZULU)

Jim,

My gun dealer has a "School Free Zone" sign in his shop window. "No schools allowed within 200 yards."

Some locales have "Gun Free Church Zones". The church in Colorado Springs has an armed security guard, who killed the shooter this past Sunday. She's single, and REALLY pretty.... :8-)

Duman
Tuesday, December 11, 2007, at 20:44:14 (ZULU)

She's single, and REALLY pretty.... :8-)

From what I am hearing from someone who knows her, she won't be available to you guys.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 00:04:05 (ZULU)

I've got a question for someone who's reloaded LCM brass. I keep seeing advertisements for contraptions that remove a crimp from the primer pockets in military brass. When I resized the brass and removed the primers on the brass I have, they came out like normal primers do. I didn't notice any resistance when they came out. So what I'm wondering is if there is a crimp on my brass that I'm unaware of. Or is the crimp in newer or non-match brass. Mine is from 1970-71. Thanks.

JC The middle size Hemmingway is one of my favorites. I like the way they light themselves evenly when you light that little end. You don't heat up the whole cigar trying to get it lit completely. We'll definately hav to shoot again soon. I think my wifes gonna nagg me into getting a winter job soon. She can't understand that I worked as much in 8 months as most do in a year, and deserve the winter off. I can't seem to convince her that deer hunting, chaseing down 1 skip a week, and feeding cows for an hour each morning is a job either. Actually we did have a bad season dusting this year so I can't blame her too much. Thanks Again.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 01:27:58 (ZULU)

re: crimp primer pockets

Jeff - don't know about your specific brass, but I have dealt with a bunch of mil-spec brass with crimp primers (9mm NATO, 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO).

Depriming force is not always a tip-off. Big hint - is the resulting primer pocket sharp-edged, or does it have a radius? Radius is a normal pocket. Crimp pockets before "massage" will have sharp edges.

I'll talk about tools for dealing with crimp primer pockets after you have made that determination.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 01:43:16 (ZULU)

Rod Just pulled one from the tumbler and checked before I read your message. I felt it and it seemed normal to me so I ran the tip of my knife over it from inside to the outside of the primer pocket to see if I could feel something. Nothing there so I decided to prime one and it went in smoothly. After all that I came back in and saw your post so I'm guessing that mine are OK. This is a guess but, maybe they started that at a later date. Thanks for the clues. I have two different lots and years. I'll have to check the 71's when I get to them.

Jeff Cooper
gadsden, tn, - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 02:13:47 (ZULU)

Taken from www.ksccw.com Click

For those of us who have "endured" Meals-Ready To Eat (MRE's) and for

anyone who has ever heard of them and wondered what they were like,

this is a classic:

ARMY RANGER DATE

I had a date the other night at my place. On the phone the day before,

the girl asked me to "Cook her something she's never had before" for

dinner.

After many minutes of scratching my head over what to make, I finally

settled on something she has DEFINITELY never eaten.

I got out my trusty case of MRE's. Meal, Ready-to-Eat. Field rations

that when eaten in their entirety contain 3000+ calories. Here's what

I made:

I took three of the Ham Slices out of their plastic packets, took out

three of the Pork Chops, three packets of Chicken-a-la-King, and eight

packets of dehydrated butter noodles and some dehydrated/re hydrated

rice. I cooked the Ham Slices and Pork Chops in one pan, sautéed in

shaved garlic and olive oil.

In another pot, I blended the Chicken a-la-king, noodles, and rice

together to make a sort of mush that looked suspiciously like

succotash. I added some spices, and blended everything together in a

glass pan that I then cooked in the oven for about 35 minutes at 450

degrees.

When I took it out, it looked like, well, ham slices, pork chops, and

a bed of yellow poop. I covered the tops of the meat in the MRE cheese

(kinda like Velveeta) and added some green sprinkly thingys from one

of my spice cans (hey, if it's got green sprinkly thingys on it, it

looks fancy right?)

For dessert, I took four MRE Pound Cakes, mashed 'em up, added five

packets of cocoa powder, powdered coffee cream, and some water. I

heated it up and stirred it until it looked like a sort of chunky

gelatinous organism, and I sprinkled powdered sugar on top of it.

Voila--Ranger Pudding.

For alcoholic drinks, I took the rest of my bottle of Military Special

Vodka (yes, they DO make a type of liquor named "Military Special"--it

sells for $4.35 per fifth) and mixed in four packets of

"Electrolytes - 1 each - Cherry flavored" (I swear, the packet says

that). It looked like an eerie kool-aid with sparkles in it (that was

the electrolytes I guess... could've been leftover sand from Egypt).

I lit two candles, put a vase of wildflowers in the middle, and set

the table with my best set of Ralph Lauren Academy-series China (that

stuff is EXPENSIVE... my set of 8 place settings cost me over

$600), and put the alcoholic drink in a crystal wine decanter.

She came over, and I had some appetizers already made, of MRE

spaghetti-with-meatballs, set in small cups. She saw the dinner, saw

the food, and said "This looks INCREDIBLE!!!"

We dug in, and she was loving the food. Throughout the meal, she kept

asking me how long it took me to make it, and kept remarking that I

obviously knew a thing or two about cooking fine meals. She kind of

balked at the makeshift "wine" I had set out, but after she tried it I

guess she liked it because she drank four glasses during dinner.

At the end of the main course, when I served the dessert, she squealed

with delight at the "Chocolate mousse" I had made. Huh? Chocolate

what? Okay... yeah... it's Chocolate Moose. Took me HOURS to make...

yup.

Later on, as we were watching a movie, she excused herself to use my

restroom. While she was in there, I heard her say softly to herself

"uh oh" and a resounding but petite fart punctuated her utterance of

dismay.

Let the games begin.

She sprayed about half a can of air freshener (Air Freshener, 1 each,

Orange scent. Yup. The Army even makes smell good) and returned to the

couch, this time with an obvious pained look.

After 10 more minutes she excused herself again, and retreated to the

bathroom for the second time. I could hear her say "What the hell is

WRONG with me???," as she again send flatulent shock waves into the

porcelain bowl.

This time, they sounded kinda wet, and I heard the toilet paper roll

being employed, and again, LOTS more air freshener.

Back to the couch. She smiles meekly as she decides to sit on the

chair instead of next to me. She sits on my chair, knees pulled up to

her chest, kind of rocking back and forth slightly. Suddenly, without

a word, she ROCKETED up and FLEW to the bathroom, slammed the door,

and didn't come out for 30 minutes.

I turned the movie up because I didn't want her to hear me laughing so

hard that tears were streaming down my cheeks.

She came out with a slightly gray pallor to her face, and said "I am

SOOOOOO sorry. I have NO idea what is wrong with me. I am so

embarrassed, I can't believe I keep running to your bathroom!!" I gave

her an Imodium AD, and she finally settled down and relaxed.

Later on, she asked me again what I had made for dinner, because she

had enjoyed it so much. I calmly took her into the kitchen and showed

her all the used MRE bags and packets in the trash can.

After explaining to her that she had eaten roughly 9,000 calories of

"Army food" she turned stark white, looked at me incredulously, and

said "I ate 9,000 calories or dehydrated food that was made 3 years

ago?" After I concurred, she grabbed her coat and keys, and took off

without a word.

She called me yesterday. Seems she couldn't **** for 3 days, and when

she finally did, the smell was so bad, her roommate could smell it

from down the hall. She also told me she had been working out nonstop

to combat the high caloric intake, and that she never wanted me to

cook dinner for her again, unless she was PERSONALLY there to inspect

the food beforehand.

It was a fun date. She laughed about it eventually, and said that that

was the first time she'd ever crapped in a guy's house on a date.

She'd been so upset by it she was in tears in the bathroom while I had

been in tears on the couch.

__________________

Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 02:18:24 (ZULU)

Jeff:

I vaguely recall that they don't crimp match brass. If that is what you have that would explain the lack of crimp.

Rod Regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 03:37:03 (ZULU)

Lake City MATCH brass does not have crimped primers.

Travis;

For short range practice I find nothing beats a good .22LR rifle and pistol with decent ammo. The basic shooting techniques are the same for any rifle/pistol regardless of caliber. The only real difference in approach comes when you have to deal with weather, distance, etc, but trigger control, breathing, follow through, body position, and mental focus are still the same. This is how I do it, your milage may vary.

If you need to be doing centerfire there are several bullet companies that offer discounted "seconds". You could call them and ask.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 04:29:44 (ZULU)

Rod and Jody Thats it. 7.62 MM NATO ,M118, LOT LC -20-6, MATCH, BULLET 173 GRAINS, VELOCITY 2550, LAKE CITY ARMY AMMUNITION PLANT. Not "yelling" just copying from box. They also have LC 70 MATCH headstamp. So that would explain it. Also. IMHO The box is much prettier than the new boxes they use now. But who needs pretty in a combat zone. The hugh red letters of MATCH with a spread sheilded eagle on the other side is quite striking for the times. I did notice one box that was a different lot and year than the other 2 lots and years just now though. Would you go by weight sorting strictly? Or, even if the weights were together, seperate the two years, sort, and keep them seperate? I don't see why I couldn't sort both years together if they are the same weights, but there may be something I don't know. Could there be a variation from one year to the next and the weight be the same?

Travis IMHO If you've got a .223 just get some of the army surplus from www.cheaperthandirt.com. Also, Jody's right about a 22LR and practice for technique. Get the Green Tag or other quality ammo. Costs more, but still a lot less than center fire, and you can shoot 100 yrd with it and not have to worry about the quality of ammo degrading accuracy. Just my oppinion. Hay, lol, Hey, how'd you like my stock. Ugly commercial muts aren't they. Got a good bit of Angus and Hereford in them but the ones that show it the most, were in the back when I went to feed.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 04:32:42 (ZULU)

Very good PDF presentation.

Please, Read each slide, and appreciate our inheritance. Thanks to all veterans for your service and sacrifice my brothers!

Just click my initials.

And, BTW, there's a reason why my initials are in lower case. The upper case initials were set aside for someone who died a little over two-thousand years ago. We'll be celebrating his Birthday in a couple of weeks.

Yeah, it's a little early, but Merry Christmas everyone.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 05:18:25 (ZULU)

Gents,

I've been looking around online trying to get the Low down on Boar hunting in Texas. I read that you can hunt them year around, with a license, but when i was looking at a couple sites, it seemed to indicate that Boar fall under exotics and there IS a season. I also read somewhere that a guide is required. So, I am curious anyone who lives out that way know the skinny?

Morgue

MedicJim, Email inbound, Chuck shot one headed your way as well.

Travis, LMAO, haven't seen that in way to long.

EDITED TO ADD

A Texas rancher got in his pickup and drove to a neighboring ranch and knocked at the door A young boy, about 9, opened the door.

"Is yer Dad home?" the rancher asked.

"No sir, he ain't," the boy replied. "He went into town."

"Well," said the rancher, "is yer Mom here?"

"No, sir, she ain't here neither. She went into town with Dad."

"How about your brother, Howard? Is he here?"

"He went with Mom and Dad."

The rancher stood there for a few minutes, shifting from one foot to the other and mumbling to himself.

"Is there anything I can do fer ya?" the boy asked politely. "I knows where all the tools are, if you want to borry one. Or maybe I could take a message fer Dad."

"Well," said the rancher uncomfortably, "I really wanted to talk to yer Dad. It's about your brother How ard getting my daughter, Pearly Mae, pregnant."

The boy considered for a moment. "You would have to talk to Pa about that" he finally conceded. "If it helps you any, I know that Pa charges $50 for the bull and $25 for the hog, but, I really don't know how much he gets fer Howard."

Mourge
overseas, - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 05:34:21 (ZULU)

Guys,

For the 100 yard practice I was talking about, I currently only have one bolt gun, my .30-06.(money's been awful tight, I'm down to the basics) All the other rifles are cowboy guns. I'm not that big of a fan of scopes, for this part of the country.

Most of the training is due to my back being screwed up. I need to work on holding the gun, mostly. I get a lot of pain after the first 20 minutes or so of shooting, and I have to be kinda warmed up to shoot decent. Kinda sucks, not being able to skid the truck to a stop, yank out a rifle, snap to and shoot. (coyotes)

Morgue,

I've always liked that one!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 07:54:07 (ZULU)

Click. Funny. Dyslexic kid in trouble for bringing a gnu to school.

Travis Morgan
wICHITA, Ks., USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 11:00:01 (ZULU)

jc, all I get is "Access Denied. Bandwidth limit exceeded" I have a DSL...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 13:50:52 (ZULU)

jc, Morgue sent it to me. Very nicely done!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 14:51:28 (ZULU)

Travis www.cheaperthandirt.com has 30-06 surplus for $6.07 a box of 20. You can't reload for that price. Take 4 Motrin, & 1 Alieve, every morning for the back. I also have to take 1 Tramadol and 1 Mobic. You'll have to get them from the doc, but it's not a heavy scheduled narcotic and won't make you high either. Bareback will do that to ya. I think it's worse on you than bulls cause of the lean, whereas we try to stay upright. Sadddle's are in between. None of it's good for you. You just don't notice it till 10 years after you quit.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 15:03:31 (ZULU)

On another web site, a resident of southern Indiana posted this about the shooting in Colorado:

"Around here the news media is bedazzled that the security guard was a woman. They can't get past that.

The local media did a survey of local churches and found that some larger churches had armed guards and the pastor was actually armed during the sevice. One pastor responded: 'A lot of people don't know Jesus Christ, but most of them know Smith & Wesson.'"

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 15:39:53 (ZULU)

Yep, Outstanding job! They did the exact right thing. move to the fire and stop it. It was one of the horrible lessons learned at Columbine. The only thing that could have been better was if they formed a tight V or diamond and searched and destroyed as a team. They probably didn't have that training.

Great job by the Officers!

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 17:02:43 (ZULU)

yeah, the anti's are in a real quandry over recent shootings. One was an 18yr old kid sworn as a deputy; to bring this up too often reminds folks that they just might be responsible for their own safety. The kid in Nebraska stole his step dad's rifle went into a "gun free zone" as established by the mall owners after the recent passage of CCW. The Colorado shooting was similar to VA Tech except in one major regard: A private security guard had a permit and a pistol and ended it as soon as it started. All bad PR for the Brady group and their ilk. This stuff must really piss them off--it is hard as hell to spin the obvious!

Joe M
Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 19:40:05 (ZULU)

OK,here is what's been going on with me. For the last 6 months or so the hospital here has been trying to hire a new ER Director, with NO LUCK. Soooo the new Chief Nursing Officer, CNO, decided to try something different. She divided the job into 4 separarte areas and proceeded to "recruit" 4 "Nurse Managers", each a "specialist" in the area or WILL become a specialist. Will be kind of a weird rotation schedule, amoung 3 of the 4, but is doable. She let all the ER nurses know and told anyone that wanted to apply to do so. I applied for only one of the positions I was interested in, some of the RN's applied for all 4 positions, and as of 1800 last night I was informed by the CNO that I had gotten the one job I applied for! Well I'm now Management! This will take effect on 7 Jan and I'm not sure if it is a "congradulations or condolences" situation!! Guess I'll see. Will be a real challenge to get this ER up to the potential that it truly has!

Well that's my life for a while!

Sarge

PS - some advantages: 1) more $$$ 2)dang near every week-end off 3) all holidays off 4) about every 3rd week will end up with 5 straight days off

Disadvantages - right now I'm not even sure I can list them all!!

Oh well the job needs to be done and I'M THE ONE TO GET IT DONE!!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 20:58:48 (ZULU)

Sarge....BWAHAHAHA!!!!

No seriously... congratulations and I'm sure you'll do a great job. Be sure to stock up on NSAIDs, you might need em'

medicjim
Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 21:01:54 (ZULU)

Jim R: "From what I am hearing from someone who knows her, she won't be available to you guys." After hearing the interview, it's pretty clear she's waiting for the second coming.

Duman
Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 22:38:44 (ZULU)

Guys,

Anyone else thinking the NRA ought to be dragging Sarah Brady out for a televised debate, right now? It would seem that people nationwide are sick of getting hurt, and not being allowed their second ammendment right.

Finger,

It's kinda hard for 2 people to form a diamond. A "V", maybe, but not a diamond. From what I've heard, there were only two armed guards at that church, a man and a woman. Apparently, the "man" couldn't get a shot from cover.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 12, 2007, at 23:23:58 (ZULU)

Hey Gents,

I Got a email about a new type of suicide bomber that people should look out for and wanted to take the time to share.

BTW NSFW

Mourge
Overseas, - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 03:54:48 (ZULU)

Doc: Got your message tonight; are your landlines down from this ice storm? Couldn't get thru!

Strange happenings:

First, my last weimer died. just fell over in her tracks, no warnings.

Then I bag a doe. With my truck. No damage--not even a smudge in the dirt (it needs a bath), but it was a heck of a ride avoiding the pack of idiot deer with a death wish. Almost made it after braking on the first, zigging inside of the second, and trying accelerate ahead of the third. I either have ironsides on the ford, or another one got taken out by the back tire. Heheh.

So the wife wants to get a new dog for the girls (hey whatta bout me?)--and decides it will be a "cavalier King Charles lap dog"--not a bad choice, but not what i think the girls need: A good solid upland birder! Oh well---I guess we get two then, eh? the laprat comes home x-mas eve.

Now I'm late with feeding the animals. I get "the look" when I grab the carbine---again. But it is payday out by the barn tonight (in more ways than 1). The yodelers are just beyond the fence raising hell when I get there. I poke around the north end (high side) of the barn, and light up the alfalfa field with the surefire attached, and four yotes take off running dead away. I no sooner pick up my dot in the circle of the eotech when the gun starts barking out orders to stop. Familiarity is magic stuff. The safety and trigger were subconscious results. I figured that no way I hit anything with that barrage of 55gr amaxes. But, one yote died at the fence (75yds), another died 20 yrds further out, and another maybe 30 more. No sign of the fourth. Damnedest easy yote hunt ever. Later, the wife asked about the noise and i told her i bagged three yotes. She asked, "why'd you shoot 7 times then? Practicing for next time?" So much for feeling pretty good. But that was after:

I went to check the water troughs, and got to the farthest one from the buildings. I'm looking at the tracks--bunnies, deer, dogs..and a really clear print of a big dog (I have one of those LED headlamps on). Something ain't right about that last print---I do not know any dogs that much bigger than the labs and retrievers in the neighborhood, so I light it up with that surefire. No claws, and three very distinct lobes on the heel pad...shit! The hair stands up on my neck and all of a sudden I am not liking being so close to the pines! I swept the woodline as fast as i was backing into the open...

That is as picture-perfect a cougar track as you'll find in the books. I decided that the water could wait, and that I ought to start carrying more mags with heavier bullets. I want to get a photo of that track, with ruler--to see just how big this cat might be.

Some thoughts:

A surefire does not get brighter when you squeeze it harder.

An eotech has a better zero than the center of a mounted light beam (I probably chased the light on the last, far dog)

An M4 feels much smaller when looking at a cat track that wasn't there yesterday.

I felt like i was being watched the last few days while walking fences. I should pay more attention to that feeling. Little things, like leaves rustling ahead of a breeze, or a branch that moves against the wind on the hillside--things that the mind picks up even if your consciousness is focused on hot-wire insulators...gotta pay heed to that stuff.

Finally, my wife teases me about my M4 forrays. She thought that I was just reliving my glory days. She also has seen one cat already two years back--but wished it away as a one-off. I noticed she brought her 870 up by the door tonight. Heheh.

Joe M
Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 04:52:28 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

One of my Border Collies just had 9 pups the other night, and you're sure welcome to half a dozen or so! IF they take after their Dad, nobody will EVER get near your family without your say so. He's athletic as hell,(the most athletic dog I've ever had) has a lot of "eye", is natural on stock, and don't mind thumpin' a coyote now and again. The Mom is a little milder acting.

They're both smart enough that you can just talk to them like people and point to what you want. I swear they're smarter than my in-laws.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 06:12:36 (ZULU)

Border Collies and Australian Shepherds are some of the smartest dogs I've ever seen. Just amazing.

The resident manager of an apartment complex where my former wife and I used to live had a female Aus. Shepherd. Well, we became friends with the resident manager and were around the dog a lot. Just so happened that I had to fill in on a night shift and my wife didn't like being alone so the res. mgr. told her to take the dog with her for the night. I forgot all about that when I got off and headed home. Got home while it was still dark and was trying my best to keep from waking my former wife so there I am in the living room trying to be as quiet as I can while taking all the crap off my belt. I had just laid some piece of gear on the coffee table when that dog - as quietly as a ghost - came up behind me and touched her nose to the back of my calf. Quiet went out the window. That dog almost gave ma a heart attack. I'm pretty sure that if it had been someone the dog didn't recognize there would have been teeth on a calf muscle instead of a nose.

She was also a damn good cattle dog. First dog I ever saw that knew left from right. She was a joy to watch when she was working cattle.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 06:45:50 (ZULU)

Australian shepherds are my other favorite. If they bark, it ain't a squirrel. Grab a gun. They are the quietest dog I know of. They remind me of a bobcat. Border Collies and Australin Shepherds generally won't shit near the house, either.

Growing up, we had a Border/Australian Shepherd cross, and it was years before I discovered where he was "going". He was going across the road in the ditch! Talk about considerate!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 06:59:10 (ZULU)

Joe,

I read off the news of the Colorodo shooting to my wife and asked if I now should carry even at church. Normally, she would roll her eyes, but this time she just looked at me and shrugged. I call that progress. `Spect we`ll be getting her once-fired S&W M&P compact out for some excercize after the new year.

On a related note....

Mrs. and I rode shotgun on the Salv. Arm. kettle in the mall for our church last week. Strict gun-free zone, doncha` know (but not signs at ALL the entrances, wink, wink). Very interesting study in human nature to say the least. She was donning the red vest and I was security (Yes, I was!). Old gentleman came up with Calv. patch on hat and thanked me for saying "Merry Christmas" instead of the usual PC crap when he dropped his loot in the bucket. Had a nice long chat with him. Seemed he was sick and tired of his country the way it was heading. Amen! Made me want to sign up then and there.

Calvin, how far are you from Beckleys Camping and RV on RT 15? It`s my new second home since the TT purchase. I`ll be looking you up one of these days, dude.

Steve Racer
PA, - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 07:16:19 (ZULU)

I second the Border Collie / Aus Shepherd Comments. Joe and I had this conversation already but, It was the smartest dog I ever owned or trained. I've trained a lot. If you don't go for one of those I can maybe find you a good Pit. I know the sterotype that everyone hears about them, but I've trained a lot of them and it's recent genetics, and how you raise/train/socialize them. I've got a blue female that's my daughters baby. A Black Male that's my wifes, and A Buckskin Female that truelly is man's best friend. Smart as you'll ever see, other than the afore mentioned collie. She'll do anything I tell her including find the four main scentable drugs. She's never even growled at anyone when a family member was around, but I guarentee if no one was home you'd never make it from the car to the house. Whatever you get look for one that wasn't bread for shows. They tend to get the brains bread right out in favor of confirmation. If you go with a working dog breed, forget AKC and find one of the breed associations that has trials for that breed. Then you'll have a better chance at getting brains.

Joe If you get that pic of the cat print with ruller, email me one. I'd like to see what real big cat tracks look like compared to the ones that the TWRA says don't exist here in TN. 500 S&W sounds like a good close cat/bear gun to me. Tucked in a quick draw holster. I've got a hillarious story about my best friends brother coming back from his deer stand with his muzzle loader and refusing to return till gun season. Apparently the nonexistant momma cat and three cubs walked within 15yds of his stand. TWRA says they don't exist here, that they'd have to be a released/escaped pet and to shootem on sight. The law says they are protected here, and off limits. All I know is when we start seeing cat tracks we quit seeing deer. I haven't been 15 yds from one but I've seen two from the air.

Sorry about your dog, I'd be worse than a woman if mine died.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 13:17:10 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

We lucked out on the ice storm. Most of it was north of us. I just called to BS. Got right thru on the land line. My small-town phone company now has unlimited long distance for a flat rate of $20/month so I try not to use my cel when I'm home. I hate their lousy fidelity. We had to put our Alaskan Malamute down in October and have been looking for a suitable replacement. He was almost twelve so we were pretty torn up. The wife wanted a lap dog and I wanted "BIG". I have no idea why; but she decided we "needed" an American Mastiff! She should be on heck of a lap full. Her Mom weighs 150 pounds and her Dad goes 185! We're off to Ohio this afternoon to pick her up. We don't have any of those big pussy cats down here in Missouri either! I've heard one and my closest neighbor has seen one! One of the main reasons my Kimber goes with me when I'm out cutting wood. May just start dragging along my M4 as well.

Cheers & Merry Christmas,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 13:55:22 (ZULU)

Joe - sorry about your dog...they really are man's best friend. I've got a two year old weimer...he's still full of piss and vinegar, so I'm not sure how bright he really is. He keeps me company on my runs and was house broken on day #2...but barks at anything that moves in the yard, including the deer that pass through EVERY night at dusk.<grr>

Back when I was a 'kid' of 25, I was heading to the station on a working house fire with 'devices' found in the inside of the house (the arsonist was trying to kill us)...I was at the speed limit, but conditions were poor and I should have been moving slower. I crested a ridge and found the entire road occupied with mature eastern white tails. I left my totalled car in the roadside and responded the rest of the way in the back of a patrol car....the officer had to put down three of the five deer I hit...the other two died quick. --good times--

medicjim
Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 14:40:13 (ZULU)

Mourge....That woman sure was carrying some lethal gear! But, what's up with the silly belt?

JoeM....I had a truly frightening run-in with a mountain lion in the Big Bend national park a few years back. There's no bluffing a lion. We ever get together, I'll go into it. Still gives me the chills.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 14:47:14 (ZULU)

Joe sorry to hear about your dog. but while we are talking about some of the breeds that don't live up to their stereotype, I truly love my Rotty she is great. She sleeps on the foot of my bed... or on the bed... LOL... makes it difficult to roll over when she Lays across my feet. But she is one of the sweetest dogs I've ever had. It really does come down to how you raise them. My family and guns rate obviously, but other than that she is one of the few things that I miss out here. BWG

As for the big cat, I don't know... seems to me that I would want something a touch bigger than a 556 to hold a conversation with... If you like rolling with the M4 you could always get a 50 beowulf. As for a pistol... I think I would go with the 460 S&W. Its got enough power to drop a BIG animal and has the ability to shoot several other rounds. 45 LC, 454 cassual, 410 shorts and the 460 S&W. its got some versatility to it and multiple uses.

Well gents, take care...

catch you later

Morgue

Area 51

Have you heard of the Air Force's ultra-high-security,

super-secret base in Nevada, known simply as "Area 51"?

Well, late one afternoon, the Air Force folks out at Area 51

were very surprised to see a Cessna landing at their

"secret" base. They immediately impounded the aircraft and

hauled the pilot into an interrogation room.

The pilot's story was that he took off from Las Vegas, got

lost, and spotted the base just as he was about to run out

of fuel. The Air Force started a full FBI background check

on the pilot and held him overnight during the

investigation.

By the next day, they were finally convinced that the pilot

really was lost and wasn't a spy. They gassed up his

airplane, gave him a terrifying "you-did-not-see-a-base"

briefing, complete with threats of spending the rest of his

life in prison, told him Las Vegas was that-a-way on

such-and-such a heading, and sent him on his way.

The next day, to the total disbelief of the Air Force, the

same Cessna showed up again. Once again, the MPs surrounded

the plane -- only this time there were two people in the

plane.

The same pilot jumped out and said, "Do anything you want to

me, but my wife is in the plane and you have to tell her

where I was last night!"

Mourge
Overseas, - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 17:02:00 (ZULU)

Morgue: Rotties always, always impressed me with demeanor around kids and intelligence. My team O&I NCO lives down the highway about halfway to Madison, and was the first to introduce me to the breed. Of course, I never tried so much as raising my voice at this guy when Jake and Elwood were around:)) BTW, this guy is also a friend of Rick's from just after the last iceage. Since then, these have continued to live up to that billing.

Jeff: I know that one line of Pits is set up for the bad rep...but i cannot get past the line in EVERY news article on attacks. Goes like this: "I just do not understand it...(the pit) never did anything like this before..." I did meet one last night (earlier on) at the lapdog breeder; this Pit was overwieght (steroids due to severe allegies) and quite funny looking. I mean, I had to ask--"is this a pitbull???" Heheh. Looked more like a circus clown:)) sweet dog too, but i can't afford those meds! heheh.

I think I will try rescue networks (lotsa Aussies of all stripe) or the local shelters in the north-half of the state. I have the set up for three large mostly-outdoor dogs, with room inside for the below freezing days and nights (like now). Plus the lapdog. The King Charles Spaniel will cost me enough--so I am looking on the cheap for my new buddy.

Travis: If you are serious--hit me offline. The plan here is to put cattle on the land this spring. It'd be cool to have a breed that likes to go get them:))

I went back out to the trough, and so did the horses. The area is all trampled up again. The animal was pointed toward the cedar/pine groves--but i ain't real anxious to go tooling in there alone. It is fairly tight with zero vis.

Morgue: I think my .44 is plenty enough sidearm--the bigger calibers may hit with more authority--but they aren't nearly as much fun to shoot. I like shooting my .44, it isn't anywhere near as bad as the reputation. My old one was a 4", the new is a 5" classic--a bit heavier. the old one was a relative pussycat, this one is even milder. That all translates to practice and use. Better to be good with all you can handle, than to be marginal with overkill. As for the M4, it does have 30 of the little bullets:)) Or 23, if you have a coyote party on the way to the cat meeting. It is fast to point, and it stays pointed where you point it as the bullets follow each other in. I think in a hurry, I'd rather have the hose-stream of 5.56mm RIGHT NOW than a slug that missed by inches with a follow up...coming soon....about to happen....boom. The only bad choice though is to not have one of anything when you need something:))

Joe M
Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 17:54:11 (ZULU)

Rotties....Awesome dog.Had one for 10yrs.Been involved with training and handling a couple others with my folks.Natural herders too.Takes them about 2.5-3 yrs for them to grow a brain.My big male would let strangers in,But not out.He had a way of workin them into a corner and then sitting.With a real big "Watchya gonna do now?" look on his face.Yeah,they like to think if its good enough for the owner,its good enough for them.This includes beds,couches,fav recliner,and possibly your malt beverage of choice.Socialization is a must.The more the better.Great with kids,least mine was.Not for everybody,tho.Some cities/townships have a bad dog list.Pays to check and see if yours has a list.Also a real good idea to check your homeowners insurance policy too.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 19:53:12 (ZULU)

UnPat: No worries on locality. I could fire a rifle from my yard in 315 degrees without worrying about a neighbor. My house sits in the center of 160 acres square, and the nearest neighbor is my in-law's place:)) The only restrictions I deal with are minimum 20 acre subdividing and near-impossible zoning variances for anything other than agriculture. I could raise tigers without raising eyebrows out here...but I still have the innane Wis gun-laws to deal with when I turn off my driveway.

The only thing I ought to make a criteria for my next dog is that whatever comes home should not eat lapdogs and cats nor chase horses:)

Joe M
Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 21:10:21 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Imagine the suprise my folks got when all of a sudden the County Board met and listed a whole bunch of dogs on a no-no nazi list,

And the County Execs own personal pet who had 2 Bites/Attacks on people,Registered at the Sherriffs office failed to make this list.Rotts were number 1 on the list up there. There are alot of communities doing this, BTW.

Glad to hear yours isnt one of them.

Couple months ago,made a run up there.94 about Mauston or so.Seen a Cougar on the side of road draggin a road kill deer carcass off.3 S's comes to mind if ya tag that. Shoot,Shovel,Say Nothing.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USE - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 21:53:04 (ZULU)

This isn’t aimed at you Steve, but it is addressing the situation you brought up – carrying in church.

Back when I lived in The Republic, a friend of a friend was on the local tac team. I never hung out with him myself, but he would stop in and visit the same time I was there, so I did hear quite a bit. Well, the tac team guy had a buddy – IIRC he said the friend was a cop too. In any case, The Republic – the populated areas at least – was known for huge churches. The cop was in church one Sunday, one of those churches, in Ft. Worth. A nutjob came in and started shooting up the place – including the cop’s kid. I tried quickly looking up the shooting, to cite specifics, but couldn’t find it easily – this wasn’t the Wedgewood shooting of ’99 (which swamped the results that did pull up), I moved out of The Republic long, long before ’99. Although Wedgewood would also be quite illustrative for these purposes.

As the tac guy told the story, the cop didn’t believe in carrying in church – after all, what would ever happen there, right? The tac guy said he sure as *#@! carried in church and everywhere else after that – according to him, all the cop could do was hold his son as he died in his arms.

My wake-up call (the second one – I ignorantly dismissed the first one as a fluke) happened while I was living in The Republic – a stinkin’ lousy cafeteria food restaurant that I hated and my girlfriend loved. Which meant that I ate there far more than I preferred. Look that one up on the internet as the Luby’s massacre. The fact I wasn’t there that day was the grace of God. I started carrying 24/7 – and since the statute of limitations is far over, I ought to admit that this was long before The Republic got wise about allowing permits. As an aside, it was due to what happened at that Luby’s – and a girl caught legally disarmed there at that time – that Texas did have their CCW law ram-rodded through. When I was doing it, carrying was automatic jail time. If caught – which I wasn’t.

But I don’t live in The Republic any more, and haven’t for many, many years. Where I’m at, they issue permits – and don’t get me started about how a permit is effectively an unconstitutional tax and turning a right into a privilege! It’s all true, but so is the federal extortion – it’s a way of life, and paying makes life more simple. So I’ve got a permit, and I carry. 24/7. I also am the youth minister at my church – and that pistol guards the lot of everyone. If someone wants to hurt one of ‘my’ kids, they’re gonna have to do it over my dead body. That was done with the consent of the pastor, but if he’d not consented, I would have either changed churches or just done it anyway.

Luckily, where I’m at, in my denomination, many of the pastors are armed. The way my pastor put it to me was that I’d be surprised at what most of the pulpits in the association contained. My permit covers me to carry essentially everywhere that I go (churches, schools, etc), and most places I don’t (bars, airports, etc). The only way a church can prevent you from carrying here is by stating that you can’t, through signs and a reference on the state permit website and such. There’s one church that has done so, and I wouldn’t even consider going there regardless of the carry factor. For me, there are no ‘gun free zones’ that apply – only federal buildings and courthouses. And the twice-per-year that I step on a plane, have to check the pistol in the baggage before going into the ‘secure area’.

Shifting gears: For the last couple of years, my boy and I have done our stints ringing the bell for the Salvation Army too – outside the doors of the local chinamart. We’ve always said Merry Christmas too, without concern or rebuke. But then again, I try to tell people that this state has it’s own time zone – when entering the state via the two major highways, you’ll see a sign that reminds you to set your watch back 50 years.

Keeping this in mind, I’ve also adopted celebrating Tossmas. What’s Tossmas? When the sale ads come out with “happy holidays”, they get tossed. “Seasons Greetings”? Toss. “Merry Christmas”? Sure! Now they’re speaking my language. I’ve never heard anyone refer to Thanksgiving, Presidents Day (ugh!), or Valentines Day with “seasons greetings” or “happy holidays”. So people twist what is real – and that roughly 90% of America agrees with – to humor the 10% that find Christianity offensive. I’m not talking about people like our good friend Jim – even though he doesn’t believe, there’s no ‘twisting’ going on there. Ditto with our Jewish friends – I’ve been told “we celebrate Hanukah” and that’s wonderful – I can wish them a happy Hanukah as well. Yeah, I actually wish people a happy holiday I don’t believe in – it’s called being adult. We all know who is pushing the buttons, and I’m about to decide that anyone displaying the crescent flag should be treated like someone waving the flag of the k-k-k-klub. This is, after all, America. There is no right to not be offended – and if Merry Christmas offends people, then they ought to either keep it under their hat or stay inside for the month of December – nobody says that to offend anyone. And I’m certainly not offended when someone wishes me happy Hanukah!

Diversity? OK. Tolerance? Great. Making me change the last two hundred plus years of heritage and history just so someone can ‘not be offended’ by the direct reference to Christianity with Merry Christmas? Forget it – have a great Tossmas.

Guess who’s back… back again… Bravo’s back… making friends…

Maybe I'm just posting 'cause it appeared nobody was listening ;-)

Bravo
Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 22:06:46 (ZULU)

UnPat: The first time I've seen one in this state was just north of your sighting, in the winter of 04-05. It was doing the same thing, in the center median of I94, in fact! Spring of 05 was the cat running by my house--bold. And that is it, except for this sign at the water bucket. The only thing for certain is these cats are elusive; they can get around without being seen as well as the invisible man. Could be one out back right now, and i am dog-less on the early warning...

DNR's official position is that "there are no wolves south of rt 28"--nudge, nudge; wink, wink. (Bet Rod knows that one)

So, no official worries on yotes---ya can shoot the big ones too since they don't exist in these parts.

Freakin' wind picked up today...as if cold wasn't cold enough:((

Joe M
Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 22:19:32 (ZULU)

Cal Thomas has an intersting article on the church shooting.

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/CalThomas/2007/12/13/praise_the_lord_and_pass_the_ammunition

HDR
OK, - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 22:40:42 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Here-Here, and good on ya. I cannot argue with a single point, as well as I totally agree.

I just pray that more people do too.

Joe, a suggestion. Check out the Tibetan Mastiff, as well as the Hungarian Kuvasz. I'm sure you'll be impressed at what they're bred for, and how they go about life. I've had two of the latter, and can honestly say they are sure impressive. Friend had the former, two of those as well.

God Bless All, and Stay Safe,

Sean.

Sean T.
Winterpeg, Manisnowba, Canada - Thursday, December 13, 2007, at 23:35:26 (ZULU)

Joe:

You're going to have to come up with much more obscure M---y P----n references to keep me guessing - right Bruce?

Since this is SC, how about...How Not To Be Seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ

And a parody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83Q-mu-wrK8

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 00:08:13 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Nat Geo Channel ran a program on a Bear photographer that had a run in w/ a Cougar,it came in the back yard and killed his dog.So his new intrest was filmin a cat.Very elusive.Very finicky....Bait and watch didnt always work.Took him WEEKS to get it on film,eating deer,crunchin bones,it was really neat to see this thing at work.To me they are a very beautiful animal and I would love to have hangin on my wall.Some of the old time trappers used to claim cougar meat was the best eating.That may have been out of desperation,as the thought of eating a pussy that big just doesnt sound natural...

About 6-8 months ago they had a Cougar sighting in a industrial park over in Frankiln.The Franklin Police surround the woods it ran into...maybe 5 acres or so.Nothing came out....LOL....Cougars dont exist in Franklin either.

Cougar scratches and bites are the worst for infection.All the dead,decaying meat in the claws and teeth is a breeding ground for bacteria. Contact your vet or hit a Farm and Barn and have some antibiotics on hand for your horses,just in case.Something like that close by ya cant be too careful.Sounds like that critter is gettin a lil too adj to humans....Do us all a favor.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 00:32:54 (ZULU)

Bravo,

You goin' on about the anti-theists again? After all, someone who is offended by a wish of "Merry Christmas" is clearly not just practicing the absence of religion.

medicjim
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 01:04:16 (ZULU)

According to the African hunter guys, the big cats are pretty fragile, relatively speaking. I'd keep the M4, but switch to 75's or the TBBC or Partitions or one of the other high penentration bullets. Otherwise, you're looking at trying to make head shots on a mover and that sucks. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 01:06:59 (ZULU)

Joe Rescue a dog. They've "dogs" rescued enough humans. Returning the favor is a good thing. I think that somehow they know they're being helped and seem to make even better pets. Is gratitude from animals possible? My two cats tell me it is. They just don't show it to the pits.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 02:08:23 (ZULU)

Joe:

Cougar ammunition for M4 -

Handload with the .224 70g Barnes TSX projectile is probably just the thing.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/tsx-bullet/

http://www.intlmidway.com/intl/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemID=837001

Or the Corbon 62g .223 Rem DPX (DPX22362/20) in a factory loading

http://www.intlmidway.com/intl/eproductpage.exe/ShowProduct?saleitemid=467277

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 03:29:38 (ZULU)

Ken M: I looked at my pile of 223, and found it wanting. Much SMK, much 55gr FMJ, a few boxes of the amax, and nothing heavy and solid. I'll have to change that.

On the head shot movers: One yote last night died of a headwound---but honestly, that was an accident. I really thought they were further away as I shot, and had held high for the drop. The other two got enemas to some degree:)) The flashlight deal makes depth perception go out the window...

Rod's idea has merits. DPX for now...reloading 223 needs to wait on other purchases just yet. I'm just getting started, and one-caliber at a time seems to be the affordable way to do it:))

Rod: On the goggle idea--I went thru the same trials--only with tax payer money and not my own. I found that most things that seal will fog up, and not all wrap arounds block enough wind thru the nose area to be useful. I'd say my harley days in Mass were the proving grounds--I rode well past the first freeze, right up til the salt hit the roads (yeah, I have some "save stories" on ice patches). I liked the old Cat design by RB back then, but now use M-Frame Oakley's with the assorted mid-length lenses. I also have a set of Smith's with slide out lenses that I really like. best part--neither fogs up, with the wind blocking edge going to the Mframes. I do have a set of brand new ski goggles of the issue variety somewhere---if you want them, you can have them. It'd be my pleasure to put them to good use finally. I'll never wear two pair, and my wife is not a huge fan of skiing since taking up horses and trucking. When i find them, I'll digitalize them and email you what they look like. Icey road harley riding: Maybe I really was immortal back then...

I think they are ESS for the make.

Joe M
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 03:56:39 (ZULU)

Joe M - If you like the M frames and suddenly find yourself on a budget someday...try a glass from Pyramex, the venture II...they retail for about $3.50...available in all manner of tint and shade, even polarized. I really like the dark rust "aka blue blocker" tint for day work

medicjim
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 04:09:53 (ZULU)

MedicJim: LMAO! I find that the hand outs have stopped since retiring. Now what??? Venture IIs are starting to sound like the way to go without my deep-pocketed friend, Mr Taxpayer, picking up the tabs for me anymore:((

(OK, that is a smart assed thing to say)...but it is true: I got spoiled. Like at the eye doc's when he said "oh...you are a pilot...here, you get to pick frames from THIS book instead..." Yeah; top shelf stuff.

Rod: email inbound with .jpg attachments. The close ups are a tad blurry--the screen resolved them, the camera did not. But it shows what you need to see to judge whether these will work for ya.

Joe M
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 04:26:36 (ZULU)

Gents,

I was sitting around thinking about different issues if the SHTF, You can always trade for powder or worst case scavenge for powder from other rounds and you can reuse brass several times... Does anyone think that molds would be a good investment for long term? Would it be better to just stock LOTS of my preferred rounds? BWG...

And not that I need much of an excuse to add a stick to the gun room but what do you guys think about adding a .50 cal? I am thinking in terms of how prolific the rounds are, I mean you can get cases of it... its not going to be precision ammo but it will still stop an engine if need be...

I have a cousin who is on a tight budget, we were talking about the Mosin-Nagant and with the price on the 54r with both the weapon($80) and on the ammo (400 rds $99) it seems like it would be a pretty decent midrange weapon. Can anyone think of a reason to pass on this or a better weapon to go with?

RE: dog country

Joe M.

Joe S. could confirm what type but I know a guy who has what I think are a couple Rhodesian ridgebacks, they were BIG dogs, and seemed family friendly... and I think they were breed to hunt Lions. according to Wikipedia- "In the earlier parts of its history, the Rhodesian Ridgeback has also been known as Van Rooyen's Lion Dogs, the African Lion Hound or African Lion Dog."

On another subject, I was talking with a couple different people on Go Bags... Weapons and misc equipment etc. That would go in one... So I'm curious what guns you would put in your bag. Consider if you will that there are 3 types of bags. Closet, car, and Safe site... What would you put in and why would you choose it...

Anyways gents, just thought I would bring up another fun subject...

Later guys, see you on the flip side...

Morgue

Link to a Ridgeback rescue

http://www.ridgebackrescue.org/

The link on my name, is to a photobucket. I have collected some cool photos off the net and put them there. If you have try to get in and it asks for a password its mourge.

EDITED to add... Somethings in the subfolders are NSFW

Mourge
Overseas, - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 07:53:23 (ZULU)

Ridgies,(Rhodesian Ridgeback)

Cool dogs.Folks had one as a rescue dog when I had just gotten my male Rott as a pup.Did the old dog assist train w/young dog.Very smart.No sense of fear at all.Good with kids.Very easy goin tempermant.Ours was 110lbs 28-30in at shoulder but have seen bigger and taller.

Not sure if this is a bad thing..... But Bunnies will AlWAYS BE fair game.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 10:30:51 (ZULU)

In-depth discussion of the proper round for big cats.

Cewl pictures of guns I can't afford.

Talk of what to have already when the SHTF.

DAMN, I LOVE THIS BAR!

Joe, there are absolutely no big cats anywhere in E Tenn or SW VA either. The Govmt says so!

I'll throw my $.02 behind the Venture 2s: I wore a pair of them for a year in baghdad, and emediatelly looked them up & ordered more when I got home. They're in the go-to-war gear now.

Mourge, the Mosin is a great rifle by all accts. The only drawback I foresee would have to do with reseption by people you meet. One of the things I consider in my SHTF planning is -here in the East- I'm almost certain to have to negotiate with locals in areas I need to transit to get to my refuge. That being accepted, I want to project the image of being just a country boy looking after the family: nonthreatening, and 'just like us'. The mosin might not fit that image. Not a deal killer, but something to consider.

Everyone, Thanks for your prayers! The Wife (She Who Must Be Obeyed) is doing much better. New meds are working, and I'll be staying in the NG till retirement. Looks like we've got another all-expense-paid coming too.

God is merciful!

SSG Mac
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 11:12:01 (ZULU)

Gents, click my name for a classic example of an anti with a mouthfull of foot on Colorado's shortened shooting spree. It speaks for itself. Facts must really, really piss these idiots off to the point of insanity. watch the clip at the bottom of the paragraph...heheh.

SSG Mac: Good news on the home front..I'm glad for ya. Hopefully you will get the MOB for the 'stan this time; much fun. If it is early enough to move on your own---you might consider calling the Guard Bureau and volunteering for a PRT or ETT gig. I travelled with each, and the concept is not bad. Still, it is a crapshoot on the composition of any given team--but then, most volunteers are decent folks with superior motivation:)) And these team are seriously ad-hoc by design (many capabilities built into a PRT, for example, and security is one of them).

Joe M
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 13:38:57 (ZULU)

Mourge - BOB equipment. Do you really have a place to go that is going to be better off in a broad disaster than the place you live in and know well? I don't.

I used a simple process to determine what I needed. First, I waited till the wife went away to visit family for a week. I shut down the utilities, stopped going to the grocery store and only bought fuel to get to work (no gas for the gen set, etc). I will tell you, ammo was not even a thought on the priority list. I was in trouble week #1 <g>. I've since resolved those issues. Almost all my supplies are just extensions of normal groceries in extended rotation.

I have two setups for disasters...one I call the 'walk home' bag, which is basically a supplement to what I expect to have on hand should something unpleasant happen while I'm at work (43 miles from home). ON 9/11/01, transit between NYC and NJ became 'difficult'. I used this as the model of what I might face in my 'walk home'.

My other setup is a modular setup which I use for call outs...it can go from a three day setup to a worst case, two week setup...I needn't go into detail, I'm sure you could teach me a lesson or twelve on the subject.

medicjim
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 14:03:30 (ZULU)

Re: Concealed Carry Opinion Poll

Since the subject of Concealed Carry has come up what is your preferred concealed firearm of choice and how do you carry it?

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 14:20:24 (ZULU)

MK4: Just put a wig and dark sunglasses on your M4 and speak to her in pronouns when people pass by:)) heheh. Naw. I used two in the states where I could carry--a winter gun and a summer gun. Winter was my P13---obviously, the extra clothes came in handy for the fat handle. Summer was an AMT back up in the same caliber. I got rid of that pocket piece as it was a POS though. I decided to overdress as a solution, but have ince moved to a state where carry is still a problem. And, FWIW, i have another P13.

I also usually carry edged stuff too. Hmm. Enough said, i think...

My rationale for the P13 is that it can be concealed if you approach it with your fashion choices, and the capacity with two spare mags on your person gives you the ability to advance with fire on mutliples, if you should find yourself in such a situation (shoot til the threat is gone times 2 or 3). I suppose 9mm would be easier on the wieght, but this worked for me. I take comfort in .45cal; a psychological thing coming from the military, FMJ ammo, and the 9mm issue vs. scavenged 45s.

Joe M
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 14:43:18 (ZULU)

GO BAG Water, M4, .308, Kimber, Binos, Gas Mask w/canister NBC filters not the inside cheek filters, I practiced and could change cheek filters fast but would probably still die. Israeli's are inexpensive check expiration dates on filters. LOT's of AMMO. Case of sopac "menu A is my preferance. The .308 could be interchangable with my 300RUM if I have enough rounds loaded at go time. If my family was with me I would carry it and daughter would carry .308 leaving wife to carry 1187. For Y2K my boss and I had all ready plus 6000 gals of gas in the airplane fuel storage tanks just in case. We lived on a very defendable hill top, with hunting for food available. Currency is worthless. You can't eat gold. Gas will get you somewhere and is barterable. When nothing happened, we used the gas as normal and had gotten a good price on it because we bought it in bulk.

Got a 40lb bobcat this morning. No mountian lion, and definately not a threat, but it'll look nice mounted. Maybe that's what's had my dogs barking all night lately.

Haven't heard a dog mentioned yet that I didn't like, but that's hard to find anyway. I love all medium to large dogs. If I wanted a small dog, I'd get another rescued cat. lol. Easier to take care of when you need to go out of town for a few days. Leave food, water, and clean litter box. They do the rest. Lito's going to come out of the legal wood work and take issue with this. If you're out there lurking, hope all's well.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 14:55:54 (ZULU)

How should regular 'joe citizen' handle this? (LE types, chime in please)

He'd be gorked with valium if the flight had a med bag (most do) and I could get medical control's permission...<g>

paste link or click my name

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=14044

medicjim
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 20:50:38 (ZULU)

AR-15 Magazines

I've been tossing this around with Bravo and Sir Wes, but wanted to expand the conversation.

What are your experiences with different brands of 30-round magazines? Have any of you 'worn out' one of these mags? Have any of you 'rebuilt' a magazine with an aftermarket spring, and why?

Also, what are your opinions and experiences with "Mag-Puls" and "Tacti-Puls" in place of the standard floorplate?

Currently, I have an 'ecclectic ensemble' of mags (USGI, C-Products, HK, Colt, and a few 'mutts' I've collected). If you were to standardize on one brand/flavor, which would it be?

Duman
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 21:13:07 (ZULU)

Great topic Duman. I don't have a whole lot to offer: my experience has all been with USGI mags, but I'd like to know the consensus here. From a machine-design standpoint, I'd think the follower would be the most important factor given a spring that's up to the job (but that's so easy as not to be any real issue except as a QA thing). With all of these 'anti-tilt' followers being offered, I'm surprised no one has offered one that was basically a block of nylon with the appropriate oval groove for the spring.

Bill

SSG Mac
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 22:07:46 (ZULU)

I've not had enough trouble with generic contracts magazines to warrant worry. Just test them out with a few loads, if they work--they seem to work for a long time if not heel stomped or other abuses inflicted on them. I have been thru a shitload of mags over the years. The only exception was a run from "Cooper" that actually got recalled from the field. They would double feed right from the package. Aluminum vs. steel: I ain't a huge fan of cleaning and oiling my USGI steel M1A mags. They will rust if you do not keep up with them--the phosphate phinish wears thin after enough insertions/ drops plain usage.

I have some USGI aluminum mags from 86 still in the rotation. These were in use for god only knows how long in the duece prior to ending up in one of my permanent mag pouches. They work as advertized every time I stick bellets in them.

If a mag gets banged around enough, it will eventually loose the crimp on the backside and "loosen up"---when the first malf occurs (you ought to catch the feedlip seperating ahead of this)---just trash it.

Mags are cheap; the HK mag is another solution in search of a problem that has deep pockets.

Ken M: Marine's mileage may vary as youz guys tend to keep things around for decades. I never worried much about the cost of replacements--and neither did the guys I've worked for--I figure the army keeps up on the maintenance since I only found a handful of bad mags in stocks over all those years. Except for the ones stamped 'cooper" that is:))

Bill: The NG also has old equipment. May not be your experience as stated either.

Also, as a commander, I had boxes of real mags, and boxes of suspect mags. The suspects went on FTXs and to rifle ranges, new ones came into the war chest (bumping older stocks to the training chests), and the ones proven bad went to the trash. I learned this from my good COs when a young EM, and the 82d SOPs. Good policy, if you can afford two sets of 7 times the UMR.

So, basically if they work now, and you take care of them---why worry until you see reason or cause to worry?

My .02...I have a motley assortment, and am happy with them all.

Joe M
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 22:35:04 (ZULU)

I've rebuilt a metric ton of AR magazines using Wolff springs.

If the mag misfeeds with a Wolff spring in it, it goes to the trash pit, unless I can see from looking at the extracted round that it's an ammo issue.

I don't shoot competitions with an AR - it's strictly a fighting rifle, so questionable mags get ditched RFN.

I don't buy springs from anyone else. Click on my name for the link.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 22:55:06 (ZULU)

Howdy Jim!

Nah, I’m not railing on the anti-theists, they’re not the real trouble-makers. I’m railing against the muslims that can’t stand the thought of anyone saying Christmas. Heck, they get inflated over the least little thing! For instance, I read a news article on how the Italian soccer team was getting flak because their flag has a red cross on it. The muslims found that offensive, and wanted the flag changed to something ‘less offensive’ to them.

So at this point, I’m just trying to say that in amirika today, NOBODY has the ‘right’ to not be offended. I find lots of stuff offensive, but that’s the rights of others. Had that talk with the boy the other day. We were watching the history channel and the stuff about the k-k-k-klub just happened to come on. I got to explain to him that even though I think the world would be better if those guys were relocated – like say to the bottom of the ocean – we have to defend their right to gather, protest, and speak. If we don’t, who will be there when people like us want to speak, and the rest of the world sees us as bad as we see those jerks?

On mountain lions, there are lots around here – they’re popular to hunt. Believe it or not, the most commonly used caliber is the 9mm Parabellum. Of course, around here, hunting is done with dogs so it’s really a matter of following the barking and dispatching the treed cat. Just a touch north, I saw the biggest puddy-tat (it was mounted) that I’ve ever seen. Easily came up to my beltline at its back – think the size of a big great dane. I’ve been hunting and found puddy-tat tracks too – which is a great thing in my opinion. If nothing else, it just reaffirms that even though we’re the most technologically advanced species on this rock, we’re not the top of the food chain. Those reminders are good for the soul - but bad if you've got little girls running around the area.

On the Mosin – back when I started shooting, I got whatever the flavor dejour was. When surplus 303 was cheap, I shot Enfields – remember the #1Mk3 and 1000 rounds for $100? When chicom surplus was cheap, I shot 7.62 Soviet – remember the SKS and 1000 rounds for $100? 8mm Mauser and cheap Mausers from all over – some were better than others. Same thing – a C-note got you a stick and enough ammo to figure it out ;-) The problem now is that most all surplus is gone. That I see, there’s a mild amount of 7.62X54R, and the left overs of 8mm. Pretty slim, and getting slimmer every day. The next step up obviously is the 30-06 Greek ammo, from the CMP, and a Garand to go along with it – but that’s a mighty big step.

Howdy there Mark! For CCW, I transitioned to the Glock 37 (45 GAP) a while back. It’s done the same way the G17 was, chopped and such – with the Bravo trigger job par excellance! Odds are I’ll be running a 1911 this year, but not as CCW yet. Call it a proof of concept test run. If it turns out I’ve got a for-real reliable piece now, I’ll transition to that and have a few built almost identically. Like Joe said, it’s all about how one dresses – my CCW rig is a birdhunters vest, complete with buck & slugs LOL! That’s the only thing that’s going to suck about going to the 1911 as a carry rig: the added weight.

Mourge, on the BOB, I gotta echo what Jim said. There isn’t anywhere that I could be that would be better than where I am LOL! Seriously... I live in the desert, which has some advantages. My water source is at home, ammo stacked, food stashed, and my closet looks like something you could gear a small group with. We don’t have tornadoes, and the earthquakes are so small and incredibly infrequent they’re not a consideration. Even fire isn’t that big of a concern for me, ‘cause I’ve got pretty much open fields (nothing more to burn than alfalfa) on 3 sides, and a fire house on the fourth. The only thing I can think of that would make me want to leave is some kind of toxic cloud / industrial spill. Even that would take a bunch, ‘cause I don’t live close to rail lines, etc where a spill would be likely. Possible, but not likely. The only thing I’m short on is fuel, and I mean to get that situation straightened out soon. The utilities coming into my place are internet / cable, gas, electric, and water. I’ve got 2 taken care of well, and if the internet / cable goes down I don’t much care. The other sore spot I’ve identified is coms. I’ve gotta get something better going on than cell phones – but that’s a touch lower on the list for now.

Like Jim, my real concern is getting home – although I don’t have as long of a hump as he does. And mine goes through essentially wilderness, so firearms aren’t a problem ;-) But yes, I stock my preferred rounds. The way I see it, if they’re really needed, I ought to have something I can really depend on, eh? But 50BMG is all over the place? Man, I must be looking in the wrong direction. And what’s available is high-dollar. Right now the best I know of is $0.45 once-fired 2006/2007 LC brass, $200 per K primers, and $0.35 to $0.45 air-chuck collet pulled / resized bullets. Powder is cheap-cheap, from $5 per pound on up to about $10 per pound though. It’s getting slim on the brass too – too slim for my comfort. But buying ammo is too rich for my blood, the best I’ve seen is $35 for a box of 10 rounds.

Now to the ordnance stuff (GRIN). I only have a use for 7 different types of tools: pistols, shotguns, carbines, battle rifles, spotters rifles, sniper rifles, and the anti-material rifles. Obviously some of those overlap to one degree or another, and some are purely specialty tools. For day-to-day, the pistol is “right there”. Always. A shotgun rides in the truck 100%, loaded with buck and slugs. From there, things vary. Most of the time I’ve got a battle rifle in the truck too – a ’14 typically, although a FAL or HK91 rarely. If not, then there’s a carbine. If I were in a denser area, a carbine would make sense all the time, but it’s wide open out here. If there's a problem out here I can't solve with a '14, I have yet to meet it.

Obviously the safe is stocked with all 7 types. What I need to do – and haven’t yet – is set up an area where I can duplicate everything. Not just a cache, but a for-real ‘run to’ place. As-is, I’ve kind of got that, but it’s not my place ;-)

On magazines, the only ones I've worn out are some original 20 rounders made by Colt. When we moved from the A1 to the A2, some of the better mags just happened to be distributed - 9 to me. I have no idea how many years they were in use before I got there, but they're the ones with the aluminum followers. The only thing wrong with them is that they don't lock the bolt back all the time - they need new springs. Since I quit using them though...... I've just been too cheap to re-spring something I don't use. On the pistol mags though (and I have worn those out) I'll second Lindy's statement - Wolff rocks.

But why are you guys trashing all these "bad" mags? That's just wasteful. The next fellow that has a mag that won't routinely feed - if you're going to trash it just send it to me! I'm not talking about one that won't feed at all or is coming apart (heel-stomp those), but one that isn't reliable. Those mags get spray painted so there is NO way they can get mixed up with 'good' mags, and run on the square range. Nothing like performing malf drills to make one adept at performing malf drills!

As always, FWIW, YMMV, and take it with a pinch of salt (GRIN).

Bravo
Friday, December 14, 2007, at 23:18:18 (ZULU)

Duman,

I've been using mags from a company in Wisconsin called Bravo Company... Best mags of the 10 or so different makes that I have.

I've had a long and bumpy ride with my Ar platform and I'm not to trusting of it yet, but these mags seem to be the best so far. Here's a link.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

YMMV

Hope this helps out some

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, u - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 23:51:00 (ZULU)

Good evening gents,

AR mags.....Bravo, you know I am at the opposite end of the spectrum on this one. I use anything I can get my hands on that is aluminum. I did find one mag in my collection that would not drop free......a couple spot welds on the mag body were coming loose. That mag went in the trash. I haven't cleaned OR lubed an AR magazine EVER. What's not to like? :-)

Joe....I gotta call you later. I had a massive urge earlier this week to get out this weekend and hunt some yotes, and you luck out like that. Nice! Will probably go camp out on my ex FILs north 60 tomorrow night. I think you know what I would say on the dog breed subject!

'Lito......you are in my prayers man, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Ken M.....I am working in Chicago and staying at the Midway Fairfield a couple days next week. You around?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, December 14, 2007, at 23:53:25 (ZULU)

Bravo: The trashing of the "bad" mags was all we could do at the time--the classIX AMDEF only listed magazines as a complete assembly--no parts or springs. So you ordered new, and that was that. They had the code "expendable." These days, a savy commander could use the unit Visa to keep mags up to snuff---if they had nothing better to do with their time (harhar).

I have wolffie springies in my para and para mags. I dunno what springs para uses--but they are shit. End-to-end, they need re-sproinged. Once done, you get a helluva reliable hi-cap, easy to grip .45 that has the controls you grew up on:)) If that is indicative of wolff across the board, it wouldn't be a bad thing to use these in AR mags....once they show signs of needing it. Or, if you are certain of pending divorce and need to dispose of on hand cash before the judge does...heheh.

Joe M
Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 00:14:36 (ZULU)

Mourge.........read this first....

http://survivalprimer.com/TF_Camping_Backpack_Survival.txt

Then this stuff.......

http://baconreport.blogspot.com/2007/07/top-100-items-to-disappear-first-during.html

http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blcalculator.htm

http://standeyo.com/News_Files/menu.food.store.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=bug+out+bag+BOB

http://www.survivalblog.com/

Buy this book!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.survivalblog.com/writings.html#Patriots

Then do a google search on 'survival' 'preparedness' 'survivalist' forums. You'll have to ignore some of the way out stuff on the forums and learn the stuff that looks interesting and makes sense. I used to be a member of a couple dozen forums and groups during the good old Y2K days (damn I miss those days). Now I only go to one or two that I've stuck with for a long time.

BTW...the sub-folders were in excellent taste :^)

Mags.............

I'm a mag whore. Send me those old ones and I'll make use of them. Never met a mag I didn't like except for any steel or non-milspec mag. Use the mags with cracked feed lips for tinkering around or better yet wait and sell them to sheeple when Hillibob gets elected. Sheeple won't know the difference until it's too late. The HK and Magpul mags are answers waiting for a question. Don't like gadgets in place of the floor plates. Magpul and regular greenies are good followers.

Medicjim...........

Subject in question would have been silenced one way or another. Those dumbasses that don't know how to put on slip cuffs need to be strung up. That dude could have really broke bad, he was on sumpin. Probably the best thing would have been to shove him in the bathroom and hold the door shut. maybe he would have flushed his self. And people wonder why I don't fly..........sheeesh

CCW..........

Depends on the AO I expect to be in. Most of the time it's a baby Keltec 380, other times I shove a 12 gauge down my pants leg and hope for the best. A Smith Airweight finds itself in my pocket during mild weather and a USP in a waist thingy in cold weather.

Doughlady and dogs........

When Snipermutt died this may I swore I wouldn't go through another pet death or have to put another one down. I reckon I lied. Been finding myself looking through the german shepard and mastiff rescue sites. Will probably end up with a muttnick that likes to bark at strange things and bury teeth in leg flesh.

The Boltinator out!

The Boltinator
Just waitin on the rain to start in....., NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 00:33:29 (ZULU)

Packing: Getting there is half the fun. Needing it should be no fun at all. I plan for two things with grab and go: One is local perimeter security, the other is extending somewhat with the aim to stay secured at the hacienda. The two ideas differ only in where I plan to sleep, and take the next meal. The gear corresponds. My diesel stays full, plus the supply for the tractor on hand, I could drive to any point on any coast (one way) if the area was untenable--whether with the big goose neck or without. The truck can sustain the family quite well with payload:)) But I do not plan to go anywhere unless forced to. This is as good a spot as any to hold in most situations. Plenty of food, heat and water; good folks ringing the outer areas, and standoff on the AoAs.

Joe M
Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 01:12:00 (ZULU)

tools:

Dynamite price on 6" digital calipers.

$8.75 plus shipping.

Got mine today, nice value. The vendor even ships to Canada!

http://www.amazon.com/6-Large-Display-Digital-Caliper/dp/B0002JFMIO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1197682910&sr=8-1

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 01:43:55 (ZULU)

Bolt

Thanks for the links, i am going to enjoy the read. Glad you liked the pictures... somethings just gots to be shared :)

as to the go bags,

Since this is mostly Gun country, I wasn't going to get to much into the equipment side of things as much.I know most of you are like me and have a few more guns that you are realistically going to be able to carry out unless you load up the truck. If you don't have the time to load the truck, and its grab and go time, I am curious what guns you would turn to if you had to leave your home base. The 1 bag is the one you would carry if your car was down or unavailable... The car bag is obviously if the car is around and running.... As to having a place to go that isn't at the house. Seems like it wouldn't be a bad thing to have if you live in the middle of an urban environment. I am talking about if you live somewhere that you aren't going to be able to get much food from the local environment. If that is the case and you had a place that was in a more rural area that you could go to... what would you keep there if case you had to roll out do to issues...

With the amount of ammo out there for the 50 cal its seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea to have an Upper that converts to 50 sitting in a corner or on a shelf...

Mourge

Mourge
Overseas, - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 02:08:13 (ZULU)

Ok, here's my .02 for thought on "what to take".... depends.... On where you go and what you do when you get there. Perimeter defense of homebase, I'd vote FAL since its easier to "scope" than the '14 and my eyes demand glass to look through. Ammo weight isn't an issue in perimeter defense, nor is rifle weight.

"Go to the Woods" rifle would be the XCR... its lighter and the ammo is lighter (original concept of the 5.56, remember?)... along with the HighStandard with the 2XNikon and 12" Volquartsen Barrel... would be better if both were supressed. Easily enough done with the XCR and the 22 pistol. If you're "livin off the land" other folks not knowing where you're "livin" is a good thing...and remember that "resupply" ain't in that case, so you're stuck with what you have and can scrounge off "sources" (and 5.56 will likely be available off the "sources").

Beyond that, like others have said... water, food, fuel, meds, shelter... sort'a like the 3 "B's".. Beans, Bullets, Bandaids? Amounts and sources will depend if on foot, on 2-wheels, or a 1-ton Diesel w/4-horse trailer, or in one's own domain, and where one's "domain" is climatically located... winters w/o power source/heat around here will be deadly, but one can survive summers in the desert more easily methinks...water,water,water, but don't need heat to survive. Not that heat isn't readily available around here (dead trees), but heat that way=smoke=others "knowing where you are".

I'm sure this would be a treatise itself, and others have done better "treatie" than I.

Back to the FFP.

Oh well, something to ponder

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USofA - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 03:58:50 (ZULU)

For livin off the land, I would dump the guns in favor of my Bow. Its silent,dosnt spook the game as bad,as well the shot wont reveal a position,like a gunshot.Arrows are recoverable and reusable.Its also equipt w/fiberoptic sight for lowlight use.I would still wear my 1911 in the event of an up close threat encounter.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 05:04:20 (ZULU)

MedicJim,

Fuck it, shoot him! He wants to die, he wants off the plane, well, LET HIM OFF THE PLANE! No need to land, even.

As for that Mika whatsername on the "Morning Joe" program, here's the link to comment on what a stupid bitch she is. Feel free to post often! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/ It's at the bottom of the page.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 05:20:16 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

I am not sure how easily it could be applied from behind a seat but the wrestlers "sleeper hold" comes to mind.Works as quick as an injection.And without further panic if the vic were to see a syringe.As worked up as he is it would take about 4x the normal dose to calm him.Once out a shot of valium might work better too(?)

Is this flight panic/claustaphobia or a drug reaction/withdrawal?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 06:40:37 (ZULU)

Contingency plans...

As others have noted they depend on your circumstances. Mine recently changed from a country setting very good for sitting it out, to a more urban setting that might very well require evacuation. Therefore my planning has changed.

It seems to me that -on the eastern seaboard- the thing that'll mean evac are larger & longer shortage/attack/civic breakdown issues. Most anything else can be ridden out holed-up at home, if you plan ahead.

So, where to go & how to get there? Where depends almost entirely on your personal skill-set, and relationships with others outside the trouble zone, so it's not easy to make universal rules. How to get there certainly means car/truck, and what's best depends on the likely problems you'll face getting from A to B. In my case it's a pretty short trip to where I can wait out that in-between situation that forces evac, but isn't a total breakdown of society.

(In the latter case so many things change -perminently- that prior planning/stockpiling becomes a very serious investment, and a lifestyle choice. Like some others here, my life has gone a different path, and I've had to go where the work is. I'd dearly love to have my mountian retreat, self-sufficient for utilities, and food stockpiled, but it just hasn't been in the cards.)

So I'm back to getting from A to B with the family, so I can wait IT out. The area I'll have to transit is all country, somewhat distrustful of the nearby urban areas (with reason). When I need to transit the area they'll be even LESS happy to see visitors. So my plans involve presenting myself as country as possible, with as little gear visible as possible. I plan to carry only what I need to get there. An old beat-up blazer seems to be the ticket. An old truck fits the personna better, but offers fewer opportunities for conceilment of essencials.

Of course I'll be armed, but the only thing showing'll be the old shotgun. The idea is: "I'm just like you & just headed Home" while able to engage if required. For me that means the Savage is bagged-up & hidden. The shotgun is out in the open where it'll look (hopefully) pathetically non-threatening (it's a long-barreled bird gun in the rack breach open), and my 1911 out of sight, in-battery, & within emmediate reach. Caliber resupply? Anyone here think there's gonna be a massive shortage of 45ACP, 308WIN, or 12ga? Besides, if I've used up what I already have things have well & truly GTH.

SSG Mac
Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 12:09:03 (ZULU)

Just a few points on the disturbed guy on the plane.

#1 - There are no guns on planes and depressurizing them to toss someone off is contra-indicated...I think either approach would end with a murder charge upon landing.

#2 - The guy is non-violent during the period that intervention is 'planned'

#3 -Physical mechanisms for making someone unconscious are all dangerous...it's a pretty substantial risk of death.

There really are no good options that I can see, which is why I ask.

medicjim
Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 14:37:34 (ZULU)

What about terrorists and EMP's. Anyone seen the future weapons episode on them? I think I also saw another show on MC about them. The ones that kill electronic stuff in cars. I wonder if an older, pre computer, vehicle sitting around with the battery disconnected would still run. If those EMP's fry batteries, maybe one with a manual tranny so it could be push started. Maybe an old fashion diesel tractor that doesn't even need electricity. My 50 panhead runs on a magnito so it'll go, The radials I fly are the same and don't need batteries. The first one I flew "1962 450 AgCat" I had to hand prop every morning to start work. It didn't have an electrical wire on it except for the spark plug leads. Absolute avation simplicity! My guns and gear would stay the same. I'm not on the hill top any more, but I've got 29 sources for beef now. I just have to get home like most of the rest of you. If I'm at work that's no problem. Fly one of the old hand prop planes and land in the pasture. If I was somewhere else, walking and the Kimber would have to see me through. I wouldn't want anyone to see me going somewhere, cause someone going somewhere is going for a reason, and people would follow. SERE comes into play. By the way, the bow was a great idea and addition, and got me thinking along different lines. Why draw attention to yourself. Shoot guns only in emergency situations. Too bad my current bow is cursed. Had it for 3 years and not taken a single deer with it, not even shot at one. I usually take 2 a year with bows. Anyone want to buy it , it might be better luck for you. haha

Thanks for everyone's advise and donations on the Scenars and Varget. Only problem now is finding the right load. All the sudden the rifle that wouldn't shoot light bullets puts Scenars of everyload in .83 at 150. Litterally, shot 24 rnds of 6 different load weights into a .83 group when the targets were laid on top of each other. That's the farthest I can test here at the house. I tried the ladder test 1st to get an idea of where to start and get a max load. Then went to the OCW test to fine tune it. Came up with 44.4 Varget, CCI BR-2 primers, OAL is 2.855. Using Lee collet dies to neck size. I'm .035 off the lands but I decided not to mess with the magazine. I'm gonna have to take 6 loads again, and retry the OCW test at 300 to make sure. At 150 everything's too close together to call for absolute sure, but 44.4 was the pause in the miniscule movement, and was .68 for four shots. It was however not the smallest, so I want to make sure it's not opening up too much over distance. Anyone got an ideas to add hit me up.

Mags I still like the HK. They cost more but I haven't had a single misfeed or malf from the 4 I have. Elsewise wolf springs and green folowers in USGI. Just keep your lips bent right. I have no problems with steel, the lips don't open up, but, mine aren't in harsh, moist, or salty environments either. I've got a large collection of mutts that stay loaded with 20 rnds in 30 rnd mags for spring sake, but the HK's are the ones I trust my life to. No experience with mag-puls here so I can't comment on them. Para's, I've owned dozens of as race guns. During the ban, I could order mag bodys form one source and followers, springs, and extended bases from another, and have 21rnd mags for my P16's. To hide one go with inside the waisteband Uncle Mikes with your shirt untucked carried up front. It's pointed at important male body parts, but I hide my Kimber there wearing shorts and a tee. The Keltec32/380 with a pocket clip works great in the front pocket and looks like a knife clip, or in a ankle band as a backup. I keep a Benchmade or Microtech auto next to my wallet in the back pocket. If someone asks for the wallet, they're getting the knife!!!

This information is all based on my personal opinion and experience, so don't take it for absolute correctness, or perfection. If that was the case, you'd be reading it in a book, or magazine, and not here. LOL

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 15:59:12 (ZULU)

Medicjim I'm with you. In TN the sleeper hold is considered "less lethal" not "less than lethal" and carries the same necessary threat level from the perp as lethal force does. That information was gained from class I had to sit through last month to keep my education points for my bail enforcement liscense, and was straight form the DA's mouth. Also, while maybe not as dramatic as Hollywood would have us believe, bullet holes in planes at altitude are not good thing and would necessitate the pilot to preform a rapid depressurization dive, putting all the passengers at risk. Think "NASA Vomit Comit" here with structural failure a slight possibility.

Jeff Cooper
Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 16:12:16 (ZULU)

Jim..........

Perhaps a short session of carotid massage? I see no real method to take care of this situation without messing the guy up unless he is completely restrained. He's already souped up, talk don't hurt but if he got loose he could do damage. Putting him in the bathroom and shutting the door would keep him from hurting folks. I wouldn't be sitting there trying to hold his ass down, he could bite the hell out of you and don't know what bioshit he may be carrying.

FN 5.7's..........

Anyone messed with these things? Ammo is on the high side but it looks interesting.

Bolt out!

Bolt
Still waiting on rain......, NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 18:04:07 (ZULU)

Dipshit on the plane. Well, I usually have some 550 cord in my carry on bag, some duct tape too. With those two guys holding him, I think I could have him trucker hitched around the shoulders and seat back, REAL tight in just a few minutes. I'd then have a loop around his feet and have them pulled real tight to the seat by pulling the cord under the seat. Then I'd duct tape his freakin mouth shut, maybe think about some tape on his nose too. :)

If I didn't have cord or tape, I'm thinking I could round up some ties, belts, etc. quickly and do the same thing. I'm with Bolt, who knows what's floating around in that idiots system, which you'd have in you if he goes to biting.

I'm also thinking this situation could qualify as "I was in fear for mine, and everyone's life, and did what I had to do to stop him from potentially making the plane crash"

If I didn't have my cord, tape, belts, ties, whatever, I promise I'd be really close and if he broke loose from the two dudes, I'd do whatever had to be done to stop him.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 19:24:30 (ZULU)

Bolt:

Local PD issues the carbine in 5.7 as a trunk gun in patrol units. Not a bad choice for folks who have minimal long-gun training. No recoil issues, so even smaller-stature personel don't find it daunting.

Reports I've heard is that it is more anemic than .223 Rem, although of course no-one like to get shot.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 20:23:42 (ZULU)

SHTF Scenarios: What's in the space between your ears matters way more than what's in your kitbag.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 20:43:26 (ZULU)

Jeff Cooper,

I wouldnt count on the old magneto fired equipment to run in the event of a EMP.Magnetos still have magnets in them,the EMP would kill the polarization of the magnets.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2007, at 21:36:44 (ZULU)

http://www.endtimesreport.com/EMP.html

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm

http://www.survivalblog.com/2006/09/letter_re_expedient_faraday_ca_1.html

http://www.amphenol-aerospace.com/index.asp?page=products_filter.html

Thomas Edison Bolt out!

Bolt
Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 01:16:07 (ZULU)

SHTF rifle: Smallish bolt-action hunting rifle in .308 or .223. On this site deliberate long-range shots from steady positions are emphasized. For a general-purpose rifle, close fast shots are important. If I remember right, the standard is a hit on a 3.25" circle at 25 yards in 1.5 seconds from a low ready position. That is called a "snap". Gunsite used to have a test called the "Rifle 10" that is a good test of fast, short-range competence.

Once you are out of town, a little bolt rifle draws no attention.

Moving to the wilderness rifle: Tiny .22. Anshutz used to sell a boy's rifle called the "Woodchucker". The Achiever trigger fits the action. I put a rail on the barrel and installed a scout scope.

It comes apart in under a minute and fits in a pack.

The above opinions are worth what you paid for them.

CDC'
Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 02:39:36 (ZULU)

SHTF gear = go-to-war gear

You get the best you can afford before, and when it happens, go with what you got.

SSG Mac
Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 03:12:18 (ZULU)

RE: 5.7

Bolt, I picked up the PS90 a while back, and I love it, I've shot it out to 30 m or so and its on... I love the fact that it takes 50 rd magazines which means I get to carry fewer mags and more ammo... As to the ammo, Midway has a deal for 2000 rds for 750 dollars give or take a little. I made an order just for the simple fact that the ammo is scarce and that should last me quit a while.

The one thing I don't really like about the PS90 is the height difference between the barrel and the Optics, makes for instinctive shots up close, which isn't bad on a large target, but when you are looking at a rabbit at a few feet it can be a pain in the A#$... I just have to put a few more rounds through it to get used to the optics. BWG... never really need a reason to hit the range and shoot but its more fun to have a goal.

For a CQC gun... I like it... Hicap mags, compact package, fully ambi controls, breaks down to 3 major components... and the ballistics from what I have heard are very similar to the 223 at close range. Its also very easy to control and very simple to understand. these things Make for a great gun for someone to begin on. IMHO

RE: BOB and Go bag, SHTF

I currently don't live somewhere that I would do this but In the not to distant future I will be moving to an area when I will seriously look into it.

I am thinking about picking up some acres a ways outside of town, looking at probably 20 mins or so the way I drive... BWG... which is a touch fast. Anyways I would probably come up with a secure way to store everything I need there in such a way that if someone were to beat me there, they wouldn't have easy access to my stores.

Hence why I was curious about the types of BOBS. Hump out BOB, drive out BOB, and Safe site BOB. There are some situations where I would possibly stop at the Safe site reload and keep going. But this is situationally Dependant and would only be considered in an EXTREME situation where contamination of some kind is an issue. With a decent size collection its unlikely I will be able to pack everything into the car for the ride. Food ammo water the safe site BOB etc. not to mention people... it would get cramped fast.

Mourge
Overseas, - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 03:31:26 (ZULU)

I was not familiar with the "Rifle 10", so I Googled it, and found it along with some other drills. Looks interesting. By coincidence, I was shooting the Rifle Bounce the other day. Click on my name for the link.

CDC - thanks for bringing that up!

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 03:39:35 (ZULU)

Watched the Air Canada video. Someone had QuickCuffs on board, attaboy for that. No one knew how to use them properly.........WTFO? Does not appear that any member of the aircrew was involved in handling the incident. A real big WTF????

Aircraft appears to be a widebody, so the individual should have been properly restrained [QuickCuffs properly applied and behind the back, belted into the seat for the duration.] and isolated in a middle seat section with no access to baggage, personal belongings etc. If the aircrew doesn't have any hefty members capable of keeping the EDP seated, I'm sure some passengers wouldn't mind making sure he was properly secured and stayed that way.

Gotta give credit to the passengers low key handling of the problem. Don't think I'd have looked quite so accommodating. I do believe that if I had to fly overseas, I'd fly El Al or I wouldn't fly.

JoeM- gotta deliver belated thanks for your tales of the wonders of Wisconsin. Opportunities were available, but the downsides of the area offset the possible advantages....at least at the locality involved.

WR Moore
Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 04:08:46 (ZULU)

Geoff M, email sent via rostermail.

I know a few depts in FL issue the P90 as a patrol rifle, as well as to their entry guys. They are/were not impressed after several uses on dogs and people. IME/IMO,5.56 with it's best ammunition (ie 73/75/77/80 gn OTM) is a good bottom baseline acceptable level of performance from a carbine/rifle, I personally would consider nothing of less power for anything other than specialized roles. You can do as you like, but I have yet to have any issues with killing someone too much. Now obviously you're not gonna need a 460 Wby with 510gn SP's to defend the house, but I doubt a 230gn Gold Dot at 4000fps would disappoint with it's performance:) Gonna be kinda loud though.

Asshole on plane:

Carotid chokes are easily applied by someone who knows what they're doing, which ain't very many people, sad to say. I haven't killed anyone using one yet, albeit we only train with them against other physically fit men. I worry more about catching an elbow, forehead or fist in the nose/mouth/other soft tissue when sparring.

You can use your shoelaces to make a decent set of "Ranger cuffs", boot laces work better, 550 better still. They're gonna be kinda painful for Mr Dipshit after a few minutes, if anyone cares. Belts would be good for restraining him to a seat, as well as binding his arms and legs to the arm rests and seat bases.

Bail out kit: I keep my Eagle drag bag full of 'stuff'(M40A1 PIP+60rds/SAM-R+100rds/Kimber+40rds), my Kifaru Zulu packed (change of clothes, cold weather gear, 6pr socks, extra boots, sleeping bag, thermarest, misc stuff), my LBE(basic load+, lots of misc stuff) and it sits on the bedroom floor next to the #3 gun case. The car has plenty of cold weather stuff in it, and I "would" carry my Kahr PM9 if such evil things were allowed here in the People's Republic. Perish the thought of breaking the law. Backup micro guns like PM9 is realy the best niche for the 9mm IMO, smallest pistol caliber I own, aside from 22LR and if you consider 38SPC smaller than 9mm Para.

EMP is essentially a giant static electrical load. As such, it requires easily damaged things like solid state electronics. Vac tubes, batteries, magnets, motor armatures, light filaments, etc are not effected significantly. So all the computers are toast, your fuel injected cars are done, as might be newer diesels, etc etc. Late 50's, early 60's Hawaii was disrupted for several hours by high altitude bursts during the days of atmospheric testing, jihadists don't have the capability. From ground/near surface bursts, if you're close enough to worry about EMP, you really have more pressing issues, like fires from thermal effects, your house being knocked down from overpressure, etc etc.

I like GI mags, they work fine. If I didn't have hundreds of them lying about, I'd buy P-mags from Magpul and run those exclusively.

Hey Bravo, how's that HK mag holding up? S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 07:46:48 (ZULU)

Ken,

My roster mail link is fubared, that email is no longer in effect. New mail is geoffmccormick and charter dot net if you get my drift.

On .223 ammo - I don't think you can beat M193 type stuff. M855 seems to me to be a solution that gained a little at the expense of a lot.....the military got improved barrier penetration at the expense of the yaw/upset terminal ballistics. At least that's how I understand it. For ranges of 0 to 200 yards or so (your most probable engagement in a domestic defense scenario IMO) the heavy stuff doesn't seem to be able to justify the extra cost to my feeble mind. Again, IMO. So, I just shoot M193 type 55 grain ball, and lots of it when I can afford it. I can shoot a lot more of it than the heavy stuff for the fixed amount of money available. I will load some heavy stuff for my DMR type build at some point, but that will be mainly to investigate the accuracy potential of the rifle and the personal satisfaction that brings more than anything. YMMV and all that.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 09:33:20 (ZULU)

Beats shoveling snow.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/future-weapons/games/cannon/cannon.html

Gary Kaney
NW, ILL, - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 12:15:25 (ZULU)

Damn you, Gary! My wife walked in here a coupla hours ago, and I notice it was daylight THEN.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 15:03:41 (ZULU)

Optical mount question:

I'm currently running a Savage 110 for F-class matches. It is presently equipped with a Leupold One-Piece Mount Base and Burris Pos-align rings with the "20" inserts front and rear to get the proper elevation bias with the Leupold 12X optic I'm using.

I'm not normally removing the optic.

Is there a durability or any other big advantage to upgrading with (say) the Ken Farrell 20ma steel (Weaver) base with corresponding rings?

http://www.kenfarrell.com/SAV-L-1-20.html

http://www.kenfarrell.com/0010IN-STD.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 15:16:11 (ZULU)

Rod,

If your mount is solid, I wouldn't mess with it. I do have a preference for 1-piece bases (something mild like 308 doesn't need them, it just makes me feel better), but the big thing is no movement. A lot of shooting success is confidence in your rig. If you'd feel more confident having a beefier base, then don't let yourself be talked out of it.

I have a Ferrel base on my rifle, another Savage 10FP (have had on a couple) and have never worried one second about it moving. I bed mine. Strange: people will pay for high-dollar scopes able to 'take the recoil', but they don't give a moment's thought to the tiny-assed screws used to hold it on the rifle: bad machine design that.

Maybe bed the base you've got, and go away happy. Your call: only you can say what'll give you confidence in the set-up.

FWIW, I bed my actions and bases with AL filled epoxy, using shoe polish as a release agent. Cheap, easy as pie, and hell: I've got all this KIWI I don't need any more.

SSG Mac
Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 16:52:55 (ZULU)

re: bases:

I haven't seen any cause to be disappointed with the current base setup, but then it hasn't had any hard knocks so far. I don't plan to abuse it, but feces occurs :-( .308 Win is the chambering.

The current Leupold base only uses 1 of the two rear screw holes, which seems to be a rather hopeful design (to be kind).

I would like to pick a vendor that has a 20MOA "production" Savage 110 offering, which would seem to eliminate Near Mfgr in Canada (too bad).

Any opinions on Farrell versus Seekins offerings for the Savage 110?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 17:47:59 (ZULU)

Guy on plane;

I have no business even commenting, but from a regular guy point of view, I will. I don`t have the training and experience most of you here have. I have seen United 93 and even before 911, I can safely say, this dude would have to shut the pie hole. I too think he`s on something and the biting thing weights heavily on my mind. He was obviously enciting himself and appears to be escalating towards getting up and moving. I`m not sure what I would have done, but he ain`t getting out of that seat conscious if I`m on that plane. When I saw the wire tie come off, I lost all confidence in the passengers who were attending him. In fact, they may have needed someone to keep me off of him at that point, I was getting all puckered just watching the video. I`m thinking groin if he`s up, solar plex, sternal notch, adams apple, eyeballs, whatever it takes to make him settle down. Belt comes off pretty quickly and that buckle can be effective when swung with authority.

I`m no bad ass, but my whole life I`ve used this philosophy, " I ain`t saying I can kick your ass...I AM saying we`re about to find out". I don`t launch often, but I launch big as I can, FWIW.

Steven S. Racer
PA, - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 18:20:06 (ZULU)

Rod check the Badger Ordinance offering. If I have one gripe with Ferrell's bases, it's too tall. I've got a 42mm objective, and there's a good .300" between the barrel and the bell. The B.O. bases are shorter. I'd still bed them: too easy to do & cheap insurance.

Bill

SSG Mac
Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 22:04:48 (ZULU)

Badger doesn't appear to make a rail for the model 110 long action (pre-Accutrigger) :-(

http://www.badgerord.com/productgroup.php?id=rails

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 22:26:44 (ZULU)

Yeah, thought about that after making the suggestion. Duh-huh.

SSG Mac
Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 23:35:53 (ZULU)

Farrell bases- I put a set on a .223. The instuctions don't indicate that the bases HAVE to be bedded so I didn't. Big mistake. Between their excessive height and the lack of support to the screw shafts I had a wandering impact point every time the scope got any kind of bump.

Went to the Leupold QRW 2 piece base and kept the Burress Signature rings and everything became copesetic. Much better cheek/jaw weld too.

BTW Rod, the Loopy standard base isn't too bad on the stability standard. It's not a milspec mount but it can take some additional stress. I had my .308 barreled action do a 1 1/2 gainer off the bench into a bucket full of brass, landing on the scope. POI didn't change. Now if the impact had been sideways on the objective........

Leupold does have standard mounts with either 15 or 20 MOA of angle built in. They also have the Mark IV mounts that use all the screw holes, dunno if they're available for Savage.

WR Moore
Sunday, December 16, 2007, at 23:51:37 (ZULU)

re: bases for Savage 110 (F-class)

Ok, I *could* change over to (say) Leupold 2-piece QRW bases (49833) and Burris 1" SIGNATURE ZEE RING medium matte (420521). The ZEE rings use the Pos-align inserts which would also permit creating the 20MOA elevation offset.

http://www.gobles.ca/LEUPOLD/Leup0706QRWPRW.html

http://www.gobles.ca/BURRIS/Burris%200407.html

Would that be a significant improvement over a Leupold One-Piece Mount Base (49996) and Burris 1" SIGNATURE RINGs (UNIVERSAL DOVETAIL) medium matte (420501)?

The primary advantages I can see are:

- Uses all of the receiver mounting holes

- Removable with a prospect of return to zero if necessary.

- Slightly better loading port access.

Disadvantage:

- Possible mounting/eye relief issues because receiver-referenced mounting points are different between the one-piece and two-piece bases. My educated guess is that I would have to move the optic rearward about 0.5 inches because of the revised mounting point. The Leupold 12X I use has good eye relief, but it seems to be fine where it is.

It's not clear that there would a significant enhancement in ruggedness overall.

Thoughts?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, December 17, 2007, at 00:50:42 (ZULU)

Rod- if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I will admit that the QRW base/Zee rings does give very close return to POI if you have to take the scope off. On the other hand, the thin section of the mount clamp on the Zee ring doesn't give me much of a warm fuzzy feeling with respect to impact. So far mine hasn't moved despite a few bumps (knock wood).

WR Moore
Monday, December 17, 2007, at 01:35:36 (ZULU)

Question: What is the longest OAL the Accuracy International mags for 308WIN will take?

And, someone please confirm these are the mags most used with the Badger Ord. bottom metal for REM700s.

Finally, do any of you have alternative mags you like for the purpose? $70/per is pretty steep!

I’m mulling over a new project, and would appreciate input. Thanks.

SSG Mac
Monday, December 17, 2007, at 12:28:05 (ZULU)

After considerable discussion on this site just a couple months ago, I was persuaded to go with the Burris Signature series rings. Although they're not the most rugged rings out there, they are fine so far for my use. One thing about them, you can shim the base if 40 MOA achieved through two .020 inserts isn't enough and they will still allign and keep stress off the scope tube. My perticular Winchester has a problem in the receiver that keeps me from having enough elevation to get zeroed at 100yds, much less 1000. I like two piece bases on my hunting/target rifles, but they don't get too many hard knocks. This summer I'm going to change scopes on my .308 to one with a 30mm tube and I haven't found any inserts for the 30mm rings that are more than .010, doesn't mean they aren't out there, just haven't found them yet. When I do change I'm going with a 20MOA one piece base, instead of the shim. Earlier, I ordered a Leatherwood and although it wasn't the correct one for my rifle and had to be returned, it did seem to be a well made base at half the B/O price. I'll probably order another one that fits when I change over. Check with Leatherwood, they may make one for the savage.

Of course WR has a point too. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Can someone point me to some instructions on bedding bases, I've never heard of it, and am curious. I've got two rifles that I'll be bedding this summer and while they're down, might as well bed the bases when I'm changing scopes on the .308. The other is a hard recoiling 300RUM and although I've seen no problems with it yet doesn't mean there won't be any. "preventative maintaince"

This is soley my opinion derrived from experiences stemming from following others opinions and advise.

Merry Christmas, and rember to think about the first 6 letters. To those of you who believe in the old testament, Happy Hanukkah. I believe in the first greeting, but am not offended by the second or any other. I am offended by offensive people offending me due to their being offended.

Jeff C
Gadsden, TN, - Monday, December 17, 2007, at 15:12:45 (ZULU)

Well guys you know me I don't normally post political things here - stirs the S pot to much - but this one I can't pass up! Have a look and make up your own mind!!

http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Issues.View&Issue_id=18

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, December 17, 2007, at 15:39:44 (ZULU)

CDC',

Good input, keeping a low profile.

Lindy,

Thanks for the "Rifle 10" link.

Training: have any of you taken the "Pistol 250" course at Gunsite? I'm planning out 2008, and I'm thinking of scheduling another training class. I'm interested in your comments on the "Gunsite 250" pistol course.

Duman
Monday, December 17, 2007, at 18:18:06 (ZULU)

Geoff, you get no real argument out of me! But I do ‘clean’ mags – if by ‘clean’ you mean ‘turn upside down and shake until all the gravel falls out’. Seriously. I didn’t have problems using them with the gravel rattling around in them either. On your ammo selection, we’re 100% too. I run 55 grainers almost exclusively now. My ‘go to town’ ammo is 55gr TAP, just to squeeze a touch more effective range out of the cartridge.

And if I came across as somehow hating aluminum mags, that’s not my official position. Right now, probably my most trusted mags (as in ‘a full load out of mags I know are good’) are the ones I rescued from the factory a few blocks away from my old condo – Parsons Precision Products. The only thing I’ve done to them has been upgrading the old black followers to the MagPul anti-tilt followers. Why did I do that? Because I bought the followers for another project that didn’t work out, and I hate wasting money LOL!

Which brings me to the next point! Ken, that HK mag has been 100% since I got it – I haven’t been able to make it fail to date. I’m going to go ahead and take it up on the mountain for some good pseudo-arctic testing (-20 to –40 hopefully) in a month or thereabouts, and with a bottle of CLP and water to gunk it up with. We’ll see. It’s been so good that I honestly have problems deciding STILL. When you sent it out, I thought “great, now I’ll be able to objectively eliminate this one from consideration” – but it’s not so as of yet. I figure my mag cash stash isn’t going anywhere, so there’s no real pressure for me to buy RIGHT NOW. The thing is, the CProducts mag hasn’t failed either, at half the price. For that matter, my Singapore SAR-80 mags have been 100% except for once, and I sincerely question if I didn’t spank the mag on that one occasion – although the gravel was rattling around in that one so it’s a “possible”. Ditto that for my good GI mags – they’ve been 100% too. If the HK mags were still $25, I’d probably opt for them over the $18 CProducts mags – but that’s not the case, and $35 is a long ways from $18. Even so, the HK mag seems good enough to have me questioning if I couldn’t lighten my load-outs to 9 mags each instead of 13, and cough up a touch more dough… after all, 9 mags ought to be enough all at once for anything in this country I hope.

Interestingly, according to my dial calipers, the HK mag is made from thirty-thou steel - 50% thicker than the CProducts stainless steel (20 thou). It just so happens that thirty-thou is the same thickness as an M14 mag, and my extensive experience with them says that a fellow would have to work pretty hard to mangle the mag into inoperability. Heck, I’ve got an M14 mag that has been rusted in repeated cycles, trying to get it to fail – and it hasn’t yet. It’s way ugly, but all I do is scrub the rust off of it with a bronze brush or stainless brush (where it’s pitted the heaviest) and drive on. IMO rust isn’t really the biggest issue I need to deal with – my steel mags get a very occasional (as in a full-take down every couple of years or so) swab out with CLP, and I’ve only found the beginnings of rust after submersion or being out in the wet and not cared for afterwards. Maybe this is a function of me being in the desert though.

The one ‘double edged sword’ on the HK mag (in my opinion) is the baseplate and retainer. It’s good in the fact that I can’t get gravel / sand / mud through the disassembly hole (‘cause the HK doesn’t have one!) like with the GI / CProducts mags, but then again I wonder how long that rubbery plug thing will last. To throw more “this is moot” on the situation, since I took the advice of an agent with a Colt Commando who runs the Arizona / Mexico border searching for badguys... he related a ‘near miss’ he’d had, and now I run my magpuls turned 90 degrees with the loop front to back instead of side to side. Since that change, gravel doesn’t get in the mags with disassembly holes nearly as much.

You said that without the plug, the mag would dump its guts when in serious recoil – but for those of us without serious recoil capabilities, would the lack of plug make a difference? Like let’s say that I got some with the rubber plug, but that it degraded / came out / whatever. Would it make a difference or puke its guts in a stick fired in only semi and nothing measured in mm?

And what is this about the Pmags? I’ve seen those polymer mags (haven’t bought one to try), but thought they were training mags – not for serious efforts. Was I mistaken? Consider this a formal request for enlightenment ;-)

I guess where I stand on the matter is simply that a mag is nothing more than an ammo delivery device. The only ones I’ve ever worn out were my old Colt 20 rounders, although some of the old 30 rounders have been heel-stomped. Who knows how many miles and thousands of rounds went through those though. I don’t feel like GI mags are “bad” or “inferior”. Compare it to a fleet of trucks though – I see it as a question of long-term dependability. I’ll trust a Mercedes to operate longer and harder than something without registration or inspections out of Mexico (call those the USA brand or thermelt mags) but when comparing “upper tier” mags I really haven’t found a difference yet. I suppose I need to dump more sand and mud in the equation, and see what shakes out LOL! Even so, for long-term durability, I just trust steel more than I do aluminum. By long term I’m thinking 100 years (GRIN) – the mags I buy now might be the only ones my great-grandson calls his inheritance when he really needs them.

But my point with the ‘bad mags’ wasn’t about repairing them, it was about using them ‘as is’, as sometimes failures are desirable! Like when I’m on the square range, I appreciate having a spray-painted mag that will randomly throw a malf my way. You know, when running Glocks and XCRs, a fellow just doesn’t get a chance to practice a malf drill unless it’s purposefully induced….

Mourge, that makes a bit better question. If I had to bug out today, I’d be carrying a M14 and the Glock. No question. I highly doubt there would be much more to that, but if possible, I’d push the boy slightly to carry his 22LR and myself to stick the 870 riotgun on top of the ruck. Rabbits and birds on a spit are better than nothing HA! As far as the pack goes, I’m working on improving mine – it’s been a ‘work in progress’ for quite some time.

But what is it here that I see from Steve in Butte? Praise for the XCR? And here I thought I was the only one that was “in” on that secret. Interestingly, I took the opportunity to compare the South Korean Daewoo with the XCR. I wouldn’t trade an XCR for a Daewoo, and that’s a fact. I’ve been in with the XCR before ground level, and have a tremendous appreciation for it. The only gripe worth voicing is that I think she’s a touch heavy – the same weight as an M4. The upcoming release of the XCR-M in 7.62 NATO may very well find me transitioning from my ’14 – and that is a significant statement! If you’re interested in some mods to make it a bit more user friendly, let me know – I’ve found some problem points that needed to be sorted out. And I did sort them out.

My point about the 7.62 NATO as a grab-and-go stick versus the 5.56 isn’t that one has a longer effective range than the other (although that part is true too) – it’s that the 7.62 NATO has more energy at all ranges. Is that necessary for punching badguys? Well, I suppose that depends on what they’re behind, what I’ve got to shoot through, or what needs to be destroyed. Not that it can’t be done with the 5.56, but I’ve never felt that I had “too much rifle”. I’d much rather trust a shot on deer or elk to a Hornady SST in 30 caliber than anything in 22 caliber – and a grab-and-go stick should be multi-role, eh?

CDC, my last trip out to The Ranch had us doing snaps at the head in that time, hammer pairs on the body within 2 seconds (same range). I couldn’t routinely – on demand – put both rounds of the hammer pair in the k-zone at 25, but both were what we’d consider lethal hits. I believe this was more due to fatigue than capability, but that’s part of “on demand”, eh? When the range was decreased to 20 yards, I could keep ‘em in the k-zone routinely, so I call that my hammer pair effective distance.

Random thoughts on EMP: it seems that anything with the old points / condenser / carburetion / distributors would be running just fine. Or one of the diesels from before electronics time – not that I know anything. However, I did once have the voltage regulator in the alternator go TU on me. That one faulty diode fried the battery quickly – it pumped AC current into a DC battery. So, a diode, being solid-state circuitry, wouldn’t the alternator be the ‘weak link’ in an otherwise EMP proof vehicle? Makes one wonder about a Faraday cage in the garage LOL!

Steve, if you want to put off 250 for a year or possibly two, let me know. My guess is that Bub will be old enough to run a 1911 by then (might have to get him one in 9mm though), and that's gonna be his first "for real" course. Won't be his first photo under the Raven arch, or his first course, but his first one that's longer than a weekend. As a minor, that means I'm required to do it with him (which isn't a bad thing by a long measure - actually I prefer it that way - I need a refresher LOL!). Makes me wonder who will be teaching then.... there's very few instructors that I know there any more. On the good side, I got just the place for you to stay.

Bravo
Monday, December 17, 2007, at 18:39:29 (ZULU)

Badguy attempting to take plane down. He has picked lethal force level. Let him meet his maker fast. I bet floor is harder than his head. I will find out

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, December 17, 2007, at 18:57:10 (ZULU)

Bravo - I was at the Harrisburg, PA gun show a few weeks back. They had aluminum mags for $11 and the magpul mags for $18. I couldn't buy any because I live in NJ, where 15 rounds is the max and blocked mags are no longer legal. I might, however, know a guy in PA that picked up a couple of the plastic ones to try... I'll keep you posted what he finds out.

medicjim
Monday, December 17, 2007, at 19:29:41 (ZULU)

Bravo,

"You know, when running Glocks and XCRs, a fellow just doesn’t get a chance to practice a malf drill unless it’s purposefully induced…."

I think I'm gonna puke...

Duman
Monday, December 17, 2007, at 20:02:05 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Would you like a thirty round Orlite 5.56 magazine to torture? I bought three of them years back for really cheap. They even have dust covers. Two of them worked just fine in my M4 clone and the other one wouldn't lock in place.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The snow covered Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, December 17, 2007, at 20:49:27 (ZULU)

"I think I'm gonna puke..."

I can't decide what kind of malf this would be; extraction usually goes out the other end...but it sounds like a type of FTE; can't very well puke if you have a FTF, eh?

My advice: Take two glocks followed by an XCR and call me in the morning (for shipping instructions to my FFL:))

On the subject of mags, I got a hold of one of those 100 rd double drum mags overseas. I loaded it up and tried it out--it seemed to work OK from end to end. BUT: Jeez, the thing is a boat anchor even without ammo--loaded, it becomes a ship anchor. I dragged it around though---it stayed on the truck. I figure it would give me something to do while waiting on St Peter if things got real bad...The follower is this chain-like set of metal slugs (customs asshats think this is live ammo when they look at it). That, and it comes liberally powdered with graphite from the package! Heheh--no point in any of this--just figured I'd dump an observation on a 100-round capability. Now, other than a seriously mad minute---anyone have any idea why this would be useful? Kewl factor doesn't count--I already thought of that myself when I grabbed it outta the trash in the first place!

Joe M
Monday, December 17, 2007, at 23:55:42 (ZULU)

C-mags are useful tools for contractors in Iraq to shoot unarmed civilians with from moving vehicles, including helicopters. (Notice that out of politeness, I did not specifically mention Blackwater.)

If you actually need to hit particular threat targets, they're not so hot.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 00:14:28 (ZULU)

Joe - cheap, half way replacement for a SAW?

medicjim
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 00:26:31 (ZULU)

re: Orlites

I've seen seating issues with Orlites many moons ago which such things were legal for civilians in Canada.

I've read that Orlites and Bushmaster lowers can be a problematic combo. Your issue?

http://www.snipercountry.com/roster/AllArchives/duty082002.htm

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 00:50:36 (ZULU)

Greetings,

SHTF Country: For anyone interested in emergency water storage, check out the aqua pod kit. It is a plastic one time use bath tub liner bladder with a pump to withdraw water. Sanitary, holds 65 gallons and goes for right around 40 bucks. I don't know when they first came on the market, but they have gotten a little publicity post Katrina.

There are certain area of the country (the Gulf Coast comes to mind) that if resided there, I wouldn't be without one. FWIW.

Pat II
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 01:36:25 (ZULU)

C-Mags: I agree with Joe, I wouldn't be carrying one around very far, but if I was going to be in a vehicle or fixed position and didn't have a SAW, I could see it.

Pat II
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 01:39:40 (ZULU)

Lindy wrote "C-mags are useful tools for contractors in Iraq to shoot unarmed civilians with from moving vehicles, including helicopters. (Notice that out of politeness, I did not specifically mention Blackwater.)

If you actually need to hit particular threat targets, they're not so hot.

Lindy

The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 00:14:28 (ZULU)"

Damm man they have some fine men doing a hard assed job. Dont you think you where a bit over the top with the statement?

Guys I know use Beta C Mags when a SAW are not available for rear security in vehicle opps. I worked with a few and found them to be a Poor mans M4 SAW. Not great but better feeling in rear seat than just a 30 round M4 mag, knowing have the damm rounds will stick in bad guys dash board anyway.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 01:48:47 (ZULU)

Joe: Sorry about your pooch. Unfortunately, pets are a built in tragedy.

We have had a German Shepherd for years. If I have my way, we will always have one.

Pat II
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 02:32:48 (ZULU)

There are some very fine people doing PSD work in Iraq, some of whom I know. Some of them work for Blackwater, among others.

Some of them are former Tier-1 special operations operators.

However, there are also some people over there I wouldn't trust with my back in a pillow fight, and who were in way over their heads in their former jobs of working security in shopping malls.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 02:48:05 (ZULU)

Contractors: It's contentious because there ARE great guys doing the job...and there have been some shitbags doing the job along the way. What's the old saying about a few bad apples? I commented a while ago that overall, it hasn't done us well overall---mostly due to "unity of effort." While that is a true statement, I have since realized that DoD and State did more harm than the mil ops/ contractor ops miscues ever could. Contracting presents no easy answers; on the one hand you can ramp up highly trained operators (this ramping up does in fact have a limit, as we learned) while not having to train and equip them thru the peacetime periods. Contrary to John Kerry and the demonrats' desire to just "increase the size of special forces"--you can't just cookie-cutter these soldiers. They come along after years of experience. Contracting answers that shortfall. On the other hand, the contracting itself (who is going to do what) was some haphazard shit flying out of any organization with a checkbook. No coordination, no planning; just bedlam with deep pockets with every alphabet agency buying its own capabilties for its own objectives. This needs to be planned and executed by one guy who takes the fall if it fubars.

The other side of the topic is the contractors themselves. They often get vague rumors of support, a mission statement based on perceptions of the entire army combined arms and combat support structure...lemme explain: The guys often writing the Statement of Work (SOW) think like army officers; so when they assign a task to a line company--they assume away artillery, fuel tanks, CAS, and all the other "organic" multipliers. They forget that by buying a capability--nothing else comes with it in support like they are used to. So, they mentally imagine 120 contractors being just as capable as a rifle company--and assign tasks along those lines while not allowing the extra money for support (that is not there for them). FWIW, I saw contractors doing some dangerous stuff with too few players, cause they had to. We made a special effort to marry up our movements with theirs to help this out. As it turns out, the guv'mint will often buy the offensive capability, and the defensive stuff and the logistical stuff is "out of hide" for these guys. So, it was not uncommon for a very good friend of mine to drive across Baghdad to get a newbie at the airport--alone. And yeah, I know that contract language often says "to be provided by the government" for things like FOB space, accomodations, fuel, food etc; I also saw 1Star pricks balking at every thing mentioned despite the written language. These guys are often working far from the contracting office that wrote the langauge...

Then, to make this all even more fun for the contractors--there is a jealousy in play too. It manifests in many ugly ways--but in general, you call it a good outcome if the military only tells you to piss up a rope with this or that support. Imagine that--a retired Master Sergeant--an American---gets told to fuck off for asking for some freakin' bottled water...trust me on this--it is worse than you imagine it. Not all, but the larger the base with the bigger the brass on board--the worse it is. SF units and smaller FOBs do better with interactions--but the vast bulk is what it is.

Now the Iraqi Government Ministry that has a boner for BW: These shitbags are Mahdi sympathizers..and i am being kind as hell here. They would start the engagement themselves; and the truth is whatever the BW guys says it is IMHO. That will be closer to actual events than any other politically spun crap that comes out in the coming months. The Iraqis are closer to Sadr than they are to us or the notion of a unified country--that is the goshdarn shame of the truth. BW, Triple Canopy and the host of others are effective, and have been especially so against Mahdi elements over the last year. That is a pisser for these corrupt shitbags. And, their manhood takes a ding when they need this kind of help to even go have a meal on the town. No love is lost.

I've escalated the force, and issued clear orders on how this is to be done--all in the name of keeping headway and preventing an overtake by a bomber. I was hardly alone in that tactic. Sometimes, this happens fast. When taking fire---trust me that collaterals are a secondary consideration on my runs. I was NOT transporting anyone more important than me, either. BW was moving State weenies. That is a bit different---we liked to hang out with the BGs and maybe mix it up in the hopes of issuing them dirtnaps--while the BW guys have to GTFOD right now, while preventing any harm coming to the egg(heads) in their basket. Totally different way of doing things--and far less room for error on their parts. Heheh..after all, a combat patrol is supposed to step in the shit.

Knowing what I know about how you should react while moving thru Baghdad, I cannot fault the BW security team. And i have no doubt that the Minsitry is lying its ass off to make Sadr happy.

The perfect solution: Pay more to our soldiers across the board, build back up to 3/4million, and add 50% more SpecOps (you can't add more without vastly increasing the pool of rejects, unless you just rubber stamp them "specops" with lowered standards--which is what John Kerry suggested without even knowing it cuz he's an idiot)

Since we can't afford a great big fat army standing around---contracting is the default. We just need to have a coherent policy for employing them, while integrating better with training for the uniformed dudes.

Joe M
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 04:40:11 (ZULU)

"..http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Issues.View&Issue_id=18..."

Sarge - you're right - it does stir me -in a good way :) ... We need to squash all them various local bans that come from towns, cities, states, etc... Ya I know about states rights, etc... But - that does not apply to the 2nd ammendment - period.

I'm with him on that ......

Take care all.

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 12:36:27 (ZULU)

Well said, Joe.

As you note, Joe, special forces personnel cannot be expanded indefinitely, for a simple reason not grasped by people like John Kerry - those guys are smart, and there is a limit to the number of smart, tough people who can be induced to do that kind of work, not to even mention the years of training it takes to get them there.

That level of operator is best utilized in leadership positions once they leave the active forces.

Many of the functions like convoy security being done in places like Iraq can be done by personnel who are not special ops capable. I think that non-indigenous personnel should play a substantial role, and by non-indig personnel, I mean people who are neither from the U.S. nor the country in which they operate.

The U.S. military, prior to WWII, was manned by guys who had signed up primarily for "three hots and a cot." Our all-voluntary military is not.

But there are a lot of guys around the globe who would. The British used them - the Gurkhas - and so should we. There are many people around the globe with the discipline and training to do those jobs. They could do a lot of things which don't require U.S. troops, and not just PSD.

The U.S. military is the best in the world at killing people and breaking things. Much of what they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is functioning like heavily armed police. That's what most of the Marines in Anbar are doing.

Foreign auxiliaries could do that job well, freeing up U.S. troops for the most important job they should be doing - preparing for the next war. Blackwater's Greystone subsidiary may be the wave of the future.

In any case, we need good people to do that job. They don't all have to come from the U.S.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 13:45:13 (ZULU)

Lindy wrote: "The U.S. military is the best in the world at killing people and breaking things. Much of what they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is functioning like heavily armed police. <snip>

<snip> Foreign auxiliaries could do that job well, freeing up U.S. troops for the most important job they should be doing - preparing for the next war. "

I couldn't agree more!

I wrote (on this forum) essentially the same thing a few months after this conflict started.

medicjim
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 14:42:30 (ZULU)

Joe, as usual what you say makes sense. My only point is I dont agree when anyone lumps a whole group as bad for maybe a few mistakes by fewer still, that may have happened and may not have happened. I heard Prince tell how his vehicles where fired one, had bullet holes in them and how they returned fire. A far different story than the media told. This is consistent with the crap I dealt with for years as a Detective Sergeant. So often the media versions was pure crap to make a better head line. I think we have to be careful not to lump folks based on bias media reports.

I know lots of men working for BW,TC and many others, most in country are top knotch. Now of course some positions have turds in them like any force does, including any military, but for most part they are better than any non US, United Kingdom or South Korea Troops. I hear Tier One a bunch but really not enough Tier One to have many former or currenton deck all the time. These days they class many as Tier One that ten years ago where just troops. They way Tier one used to be was HRT, SEALs, Dealta, SF and Recon USMC. The rest of military and police where below that. Now I hear PD SWAT is Tier One as many military units, I dont agree except in some and few cases.

I completely agree we need to rearm and get ready for next war.

As to some working as contractors who where over head mall ninjas, you could not be more correct. You must have run into some Katrina Contractors also. Crap they had some numb nutts with weapons invlved in that.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 15:05:22 (ZULU)

Hey gents,

Out of curiosity has anyone used or heard about Bohica Arms? they are making a really reasonably priced 50 cal upper for an AR... I Haven't heard anything about the company but I would seriously consider getting one if there were good user reviews on them. I was previously looking at the ferret, but after looking around... I don't know. I found a couple lowers that look pretty good and 1 full rifle that doesn't look bad at all.

(click my name)

its a link on Mike Huckabee about his tax hikes. same as below.

http://www.taxhikemike.org/

Anyways yall take care,

Morgue

Mourge
Overseas, - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 15:36:44 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Got the package, thanks! Have you checked your email? What do you think of the project?

JoeM, I wish I could shop the same trash cans that you shop....

Duman
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 16:05:09 (ZULU)

Thanks Jim! I’m getting the feeling there’s something to those Pmags that isn’t intuitively obvious. I put one in the “shopping cart” for my next Brownells purchase – hopefully I can get it before the cold weather test, but odds are – the way I went overboard slightly for Christmas and the fact I’ve got a shoot coming up in January – but I bet it has to wait. I’ve got a good feeling about the shoot in January – I’m betting I get to buy Bub a Marksman badge LOL!

Steve, they make medicine for that. Oh, Joe already prescribed that (GRIN). Interestingly enough, I got to reading on barfcom that the springs in the HK mags don’t hold up as well as they should. Note: this is nothing I know! Just what I read. Springs are reasonable enough – but do need modification to fit the HK follower. Due to the snip-snip, I’d be tempted to go with a slightly longer Wolff spring as a back-up. I’m tempted to buy a stack of the mags, but not tempted enough yet (GRIN). Oddly enough, I cute 19 year old talked me into ordering another XCR carbine yesterday. Half of Robinson’s customer service folks are easy on the eyes ;-) She said to order now, for a February delivery – the light 16” barrels are a bit backordered. This one will be factory ready for a suppressor (GRIN). Yeah, I got your project photos, meant to drop you a line last night. Looks good to me! Plan to stay a bit early next year, try some of mine out.

Doc, I appreciate the offer, but I’m going to give the orlite mag a miss. I started to tap out something about how they wouldn’t work for me before, but then got to questioning if it was the orlite or the thermold that gave me which problem. All I remember for sure was that I didn’t like the thermold or orlite – but don’t remember exactly why. Could it be I’m getting CRAFT early? Heck, it’s only been about 20 years ago... at least IIRC, I played with those in the 80’s. In any case, I’m just going to abuse things that are commonly available now HA!

Now that beta-c mag is another animal. I can see a purpose for it, no question. A limited application tool, but I see a purpose. If I understand correctly, they don’t mind being left loaded. For a fixed position defense weapon – as several mentioned, a M4 version of a paraSAW – I think it’d make perfect sense. If I had an extra $250, I’d have one.

Water storage: Look under your bed. I’m not making any comments here specifically (GRIN) but here’s a thought. Most folks have their bed on a bed stand. You could pull that bed stand out, and toss it. Instead, build up a framework out of 2X4 and plywood. It’ll raise the bed a little bit, but if you measure right, you can stack 5 or 6 gallon water jugs under it. The 5 gallon jugs are 14” tall, and you’re going to eliminate 6” at least by getting rid of the bed stand. Get the ones with the square footprints – you can theoretically fit 49 under a king size bed with about 2” or so of frame on all sides of the mattress. Yeah, just over 1 ton of water, essentially 250 gallons. People treat with different things but bleach tastes salty to me. Permanganate (potassium if you can find it, sodium if you can’t) tastes better to me – and you only need it in PPM levels to keep water safe for YEARS. If you plan to cycle water annually, you might not even need to treat – the chlorine levels out of my tap are OK for a year-long storage (helps if you have a lab that can verify it out of YOUR tap). Drop the water containers into the framework before the top goes on (or run a RV potable water hose from the bathroom sink into the bedroom, and fill the water containers with a waterbed filling valve thing) and the plywood sheets only need to be ‘tacked’ with a half-dozen screws per sheet. Hypothetically, it could be done in an afternoon easily by a father-son-grandson team, for less than $150 in materials and hardware. Depending on where you get the containers (hypothetically, DOT approved shipping containers with gasketed seal bungs – food grade HDPE for safe drinking) they can be as cheap as 5 to 6 federal reserve notes per when bought by the pallet (48 or 64). A pallet of these makes an interesting drive in a small truck (GRIN). Hypothetically of course. Note: if you build with intentions of putting 5 gallon jugs in at the time, and swapping them with the 6 gallon jugs later, even though the manufacturer says they have the same footprint THEY DO NOT. What’s the old adage about measuring twice and cutting once?

Mike Huckabee: I’m still a big Ron Paul supporter, and that’s that. The last guy I got this spun up over was Alan Keyes. Heck, I even changed my voters registration last month so I could vote in the republican primaries – I can always change it back if the primaries don’t go like I want. The thing is, this election comes down to ideology: you’ve got Marxists and Hamiltonians running – as always – and the kicker is this go-around you’ve got a true Jeffersonaian for the first time in a hundred years. Mike Huckabee is the best of the Hamiltonians, and the ONLY democrat / republican (with the exception of R.P.) that I can vote for without the need of a barf bag. A vote for socialist scumbags (virtually all the democratic candidates, virtually all the republican candidates) will get you more of what you do not want – and it IS that simple.

UnDude – you mean the media isn’t to be trusted? HA! I’m VERY picky about my news sources, and even them I look at questioningly. Sorry I haven’t got you my addy yet – I need to do that today.

And on to other matters! I recall saying that I didn’t like the M16 / AR15 in the sand. Enough people had good ones though, that I questioned if it was just me. Here’s the final result:

The recent Aberdeen dust test used 10 sample models of each weapon [ETA: the M4, XM8, SCAR-L, and HK416]. Before going into the dust chamber, testers applied a heavy coat of lubrication to each weapon. Each weapon’s muzzle was capped and ejection port cover closed.

Testers exposed the weapons to a heavy dust environment for 30 minutes before firing 120 rounds from each.

The weapons were then put back in the dust chamber for another 30 minutes and fired another 120 rounds. This sequence was repeated until each weapon had fired 600 rounds.

Testers then wiped down each weapon and applied another heavy application of lubrication.

The weapons were put back through the same sequence of 30 minutes in the dust chamber followed by firing 120 rounds from each weapon until another 600 rounds were fired.

Testers then thoroughly cleaned each weapon, re-lubricated each, and began the dusting and fire sequencing again.

This process was repeated until testers fired 6,000 rounds through each weapon.

60,000 rounds per model later, here’s the data:

• XM8: 127 stoppages.

• MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.

• 416: 233 stoppages.

• M4: 882 stoppages.

Maybe it wasn’t just me! These results were posted in The Army Times – where I got them.

Bravo
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 16:30:01 (ZULU)

Sale on SERPA Holsters, at Blackhawk:

http://www.blackhawk.com/product1.asp?P=4105&C=C2091

Duman
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 17:02:08 (ZULU)

6 Hershey bars: zero stoppages.

("hershey bar"--a hashmark depicting six months combat service worn on the right sleeve)

Joe M
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 17:09:33 (ZULU)

Sale on SERPA Holsters, at Blackhawk:

I was glad to see they didn't include the Glock21 highwalls they just had a recall on.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 17:14:57 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Me and the wife together probably go about 600 pounds. I dunno what our bed weighs, but let's figure 350. Then add the 2,000 pounds of water. I believe some sub-floor reinforcement might be in order there!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 20:03:27 (ZULU)

Forgot to mention: Bladetech is having some pretty cool specials right now. It's worth it to sign up for their e-mail list.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 20:05:06 (ZULU)

Now Blackwater has really stepped in it.

They shot the New York Times' dog.

Click on my name for the link.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 20:12:14 (ZULU)

Geoff M, sent E-mail to that address posted. Check your inbox. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 20:17:03 (ZULU)

...heavily armed police (for Iraq mission):

I wonder what is the going per diem rate for a regiment of Gurkhas? Ultimate outsourcing to India/Nepal :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 22:49:06 (ZULU)

"I wonder what is the going per diem rate for a regiment of Gurkhas?"

I think 'Yote-Bait originally suggested hiring some of those dill-pickles...

Duman
Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 22:59:48 (ZULU)

Lets see, a Regiment of Gurkas, lets throw in a Regiment of ROK Marines wonder how long the ragheads would last against those 2 units???? Not long me thinks!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2007, at 23:28:32 (ZULU)

Savage bases;

I have been using the Farrell bases and rings for years. Very well made stuff and about the only decent rail that will fit the older style long actions.

Storing water;

Water weighs 8.34lbs per gallon for those who need to know.

There is no way to keep the chlorine or other disinfection chemicals active for more than a few days after it has been bottled. The chemicals also react with the plasticizer used in the bottles/jugs if left in the container for a while. Not harmful but makes for bad tastes.

Commercial bottled water can be stored for about a year if kept in darkness.

Please feel free to e-mail if you need more water info.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 00:13:10 (ZULU)

"Now Blackwater has really stepped in it."

"They shot the New York Times' dog."

I woulda done the same....Wonder if they(NYT) ever heard of leash laws?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 00:54:38 (ZULU)

"a Regiment of Gurkas, lets throw in a Regiment of ROK Marines wonder how long the ragheads would last against those 2 units????"

It depends on the ROE.

Duman: I saw a video in which John Pride said that he would like to take the 250 class. A few of us have taken the 250. I recommend it highly. Go home and practice all the techniques then take the 350. Practice those techniques then take the advanced class.

The basic rifle class is also worthwhile.

You'll never look at your guns in the same way.

CDC'
Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 02:14:37 (ZULU)

"a Regiment of Gurkas, lets throw in a Regiment of ROK Marines wonder how long the ragheads would last against those 2 units????"

They are already there.

Gurkas have bene since start because they work cheap and do a good job. Saw them in other places as well

ROK Marines are top knotch like our guys are.

As pointed out the problem is ROE.

I would love to see more folks go over and put boots in sand awhile and see how well the men do under all the pressure they work in. Mistakes happen but for most part god men are doing a fng hard job very well. Remember though most of us are human and dont know it all.

They have all my respect and I wish I could be back along side them.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 02:52:48 (ZULU)

ROE: It wasn't too bad intitially--as it came from CENTCOM. It had enough leeway that had we left well enough alone (at subsequent levels of command)--we wouldn't be prosecuting so many young soldiers for BS "ROE" violations. But what happened in late 2003 and the first half of 2004 was successive commanders felt the need to "put their stamp on it." They could not "relax" anything that the CENTCOM Commander dictated, so they did what they are allowed--they "enhanced" the ROE. For some reason, certain morons have a psychotic need to put in their two cents on every freakin' thing--the old "paint the walls syndrome". By the time the last Battalion Commander got a crack at it---the poor ground pounders needed a JAG to tell them whether or not they could shoot back. That actually happened where Morgue and I hung out. Now CENTCOM had some convoluted language by itself--but it also had three basic catch-alls that were easy to understand and would be easy to remember under any circumstances (we call this sort of KISS 'common sense' around here). But the "add ons" did not necessarilly add common sense---it took it away mostly; and in some cases, IMHO, actually created a legal requirement to die. How about unchambered weapons on patrol? Or "no shots fired without clearence from the BDOC?" Or the guy carrying an AK coming to your firefight needs to actually join in (start shooting) before you take him out.." I could go on and on...God knows I was pissed off enough on this very topic to have this shit burned in my head...but you've heard it all before.

CDC and Mike are right...it is the ROE. I dunno about now, maybe Patreus got this mess organized...

Joe M
Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 04:03:17 (ZULU)

Ha! And this morning we have a smallish example of an intermediate commander using "his" ROE to screw his own soldiers---finally getting some payback! I personally would love to see a long parade of this. Sanchez should be the grand master on his way to prison:))

click my name.

I kinda want to rant about how trust only occurs if it flows both ways--you trust your commander because he trusts you and all that; and how you would kick down the gates of hell for a leader who YOU KNOW has your back...but its been done before, and heck, I ain't got time:))

Today and tomorrow my girls are having little Christmas shows at the schools! See ya...

Joe M
Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 14:13:48 (ZULU)

ROK Marines, trained with them in the late 80's. Tough sons of bitches. Remember performing guard duty with one when he screwed up. His SNCO came and took him away. About 20 minutes later he came back limping and bruised up. Many stories and memories of those guys. More than happy to have them beside me in a fight.

Darren

Semper 85-90

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 17:07:25 (ZULU)

Joe I really can't see any rational reason to have a 100 round mag, so I think you ought to just box it up and send it to me. Ha

Excelent Read = Licensed To Kill, Robert Young Pelton. The author spent time in country researching, and not just a couple days either.

Does anyone have an informed idea about which way the military is leaning in the 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8SPC deal. I've got an upper that needs a carrier/bolt, and barrel, and would like to go with something other than 5.56 for a change. I'd like to put something on it that I might possibly be able to buy surplus ammo one day.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 17:19:30 (ZULU)

Jeff - suggest you go for a sure thing and chamber it in 7.62 x 39, .311 bore <g>

medicjim
Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 18:26:36 (ZULU)

CDC',

Thank you for the strong recommendation for the Gunsite courses.

Duman
Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 19:14:16 (ZULU)

Jeff: If you want to hit heavy and have access to brass for generations, do as MedicJim says. The army is wandering in the wilderness on changing calibers, and I wouldn't expect them to find the promised land any time soon. Politics plays into it, and then you have the NATO and ally standardization--which puts intertia firmly in place. The warfighter is clamoring for a "better" cartridge--but the war planner wants nothing to do with it. Money also will drive this---we are tossing greenbacks into a pit called Iraq--and our second pit will be refurbishing exisisting gear; little money will be available for some time to ake any such sweeping changes. With brass prices going up (raw materials' squeeze), the smallish 5.56mm case has many fans in accounting too:))

ROK military: Man, I've wished on occassion that I too could use their disciplinary techniques on the infamous 10%-ers. The few times where valor got the better part of discretion were close-calls on the ol' career:)) Ahhh, memories! I remember one such little brat--his last name was Peach. My 1SG was Harry T. Washington--and he had me dead-to-rights on each transgrtion; yet he bought my BS excuses and kept handing me this little shitbag. Peach figured he could goad me into hitting him and thus bring me down with him...and I kept falling into the trap...and Harry T (a cajun from the get go)kept right on re-setting the scenario. Looking back, ol' Top knew what he was doing and was enjoying the outcomes. Otherwise, he had to believe that this kid "fell down the stairs," then smacked a dashboard when a dog crossed Long Street (heheh), and cut himself while shaving his eyebrows...all over a 5 day work week. Top's final instructions to me were "get this chaptered POS off my installation." So I drove to the boundary of Ft Bragg on the Murcheson, stopped the car and tossed this lil' bitchpunk and his gear on the side of the road...while ignoring his protests that i "had to take him to the bus station." No; all I "had" to do was get him off Top's installation. The look on his face as i drove off made the whole 2 months of paperwork worthwhile. Top, for his part, was only mildly surprised at how fast I got back from the task...those were the good ol' days.

Joe M
Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 19:37:53 (ZULU)

It seems that everyone is using "Tactical" or "Tactical Elite" to sell everything from nuts to bolts... but here are a few new ones, at least to me:

"Tactical Shoelaces"

"Tactical Black" (color of knife, as opposed to 'gloss' or 'flat')

"Tactical Tomahawk"

"Twin Turbo Tactical Battering Ram" (our friends at Blackhawk).

Anyone find other interesting ones out there?

I think I'll take a "Tactical Dump" ....

Duman
Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 22:07:49 (ZULU)

Duman,

I'm sick of that shit too. "Tactical" knives are one of my pet peeves.

Apparently, if you do a half ass job of making a knife, paint it black, then put plastic scales or a paracord handle on it instead of making it to fit a human hand, it's worth about $50 more. Make it out of some kinda metal nobody's heard of, and call it the "Tactical Osama getter", and it's a $300 knife. $500 if you get Rambo to say it's got commie seeking features.

Wanna buy some tactical socks?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Kansas, U.S.A. - Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 00:37:38 (ZULU)

Travis:

Especially pricy if fabricated from unobtanium :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 00:52:04 (ZULU)

Well, you know, any given knife/firearm is at least 30% more lethal if it is "tactical" black.

Pat II
Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 01:56:01 (ZULU)

I kinda like the whole "tactical" premium concept. I especially like it when they pay someone who has BTDT a premium for an endorsement to sell a product....who is actually influenced to buy <g>? It's very 'Darwin' if you think on it for a moment. The up and coming, real deal folks don't make enough money to be taken by this P.T. Barnum swindle.

Click my name if you want to be amused...work safe.

medicjim
Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 02:31:14 (ZULU)

"I think I'll take a "Tactical Dump" ...."

And what "Tactical" color would that be?

No...wait...too much info. ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 05:44:35 (ZULU)

Hi all, i've been lurking for about a year and a half.

I have a question: is the accuracy of a lever action rifle going to be more comparable to a bolt rifle? or a semi auto? I know there are many other variables to the accuracy, i'm just asking about the action/design variable.

thanks,

David

Birdshooter
WA, God Bless America - Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 06:07:21 (ZULU)

David IMHO The short answer is it'll be more comparable to a semi auto. And, your thinking is along the correct lines if your considering all the extra moving parts the two actions have compared to a bolt gun. The more moving parts you.ve got the more parts that might not be the exact same from shot to shot. Also in the in levers and some autos barrel and gun harmonics are affected by the lack of the ability to free float the barrel. This is not to say that there aren't accurate levers out there. I had a friend that had a Winchester 45 Long Colt That I could consistantly hit our 600 yd human silouet target with. It just took a LOT of hold over. once I figured it out, I actually aimed at the top of a telephone pole that was a couple hundred yards directly behind it. My friend never did figure out how I was aiming and I never told him either but he would pull the gun out any time we had company on the range and let me astonish them too. It was loads of fun.

On a different note. I'm in Lito land. Cleaning my .308 after 30 or so rounds of reloads and 80 Lake City Match. Spent 4 hours on it yesterday going from Paste to Sweets 7.62 to Hopes and back again, oiling in between. Finally got the blue stuff to qiut but it's still putting out black patches with the Hopes and even the oil. Aargh!!! I'm thinking of plugging it over night and filling it with Hopes. nThe only thing I can figure is that it's seasoned like a frying pan and I'm scrubbing off the seasoning. It's SS and when I look inside it's shiny, but dark shiny not bright.

7.62 x 39 sounds like the way I'll go on the spare upper. What's a good Mag source? DPMS only has 10 rounders. I'd like more capacity if they are available?

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 14:40:41 (ZULU)

Scope Ring Bedding Tool:

http://www.basebed.com/

Found at another site:

"I prefer to lay a one piece base on the action and tighten the front screws and see if the back lifts when you do, or if the base actually bends down a bit. And then I do that with the rear screws and see how it lines up. Which ever one appears best is the one I will use to "locate" the other.

If I use the front as the best fit, I then paint the rear of the action with a thick coat of release agent. I clean the bottom of the base. Then applying either a steel or aluminum bedding compound to the bottom of the rear base. I very lightly tighten the front screws just enough to hold the base in place, and put the rear screws in(with release agent on them) just enough to engage the threads without any down pressure.

When the bedding is cured, I remove the base, clean up the excess, drill the compound out of the holes, and repeat the process on the front of the base, this time tighening the rear screws firmly, letting the front screws sit loose.

After curing, clean up the base, install it firmly using blue loctite on the screws.

Install the rings, getting them lined up as good as you can, and lightly lap them until you can see the bottoms of the rings appear equally lapped. I do nothing with the ring tops. I place a bit of powdered rosin in both rings halves before putting the scope in place, and in the ring tops, before putting them on the scope. I lubricate the ring screws with never sieze and snug them equally quite tight. If there are windage screws in the base, I use blue loctite on them, and snug them good, but not enough to distort them or the base.

If I am using a two piece base, it is a little trickier.. I use the rings in the bases, attached by a tube through the rings to locate the bases and bed them."

Duman
Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 19:43:25 (ZULU)

New Topic/Question. I've been considering "consolidating"... I currently have an FNSPR and an FAL (DSA STG58) and am wondering with all the talk going around about the 7.62 SR25 SASS if there's hope to reduce these two 7.62's into one... I had a DPMS LR 308 that I replaced the barrel with one from ABS (carbon-fiber wrapped). It was certainly accurate enough (<1 MOA consistently), but the "gas-in-the-action bothered me enough that I sold it and got the FAL. Particularly an issue with a suppressed direct gas impingement?

Anyway, I was wondering about accuracy/reliability of the P.O.F. 308? Otherwise wait until the Robinson 308 comes out?

Thanks from the north country.

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, US&A - Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 21:45:13 (ZULU)

Jody – IIRC, I added about 8 PPM of permanganate. The chlorine tested somewhere over 20 ppm, I want to say close to 30. So yeah, I was confident that the water going in was chlorinated to the point all significant bugs were dead. The reason I hit it a touch harder was ‘cause I have no intention of pulling this water out after a year. The weight is a prime motivator, but getting it in and out is a hassle in and of itself. It’s not in total darkness, but definitely shaded at all times. But are you saying that the permanganate will leach and then oxidize the phthalates in HDPE?

And yeah Steve, Yote Bait said that putting in Gurkhas was the way to go. And told he was full of it. I agree with the whole ROE thing, it’s hard to do your job properly when you’re told HOW you’re going to be doing it (by someone that doesn’t do it) and even more so when micromanaged. By someone that doesn’t do it. It’s also difficult to take someone seriously when they tell you they’re going to build you a new house if you survive the shooting... our government is screwed up big-time, without question. What happened to fighting a war full-out and running the occupied territory until they became our ally (re: Japan, Germany)? Elsewise, I say hit ‘em until they’re out, and then leave (re: Africa post WWII).

Travis, yeah, gotta look at the sub-floor thing. I live on a slab, so that’s not so much of a concern for me. But in addition to the ton of water and the stand –probably 100 pounds or so- I’ve got a tubular water bed on top of that. Figure in another 500 pounds or so for that, and then me on top. When entertaining, I’m sure the total load is close to 3000 lbs ;-) On the good side, we’re talking about a king sized bed – that’s roughly 40 square feet I think. If so, we’re only talking about 75 pounds per square foot. Now whether the sub-floor would handle that is something I don’t know. There are some times I wished I’d taken some engineering or construction courses – but I didn’t.

Joe – on your Hershey bars (and several packets of skittles): you bring up a great point. The thing is, I see your experiences as a triumph of the operator over design. Sure, it works, and obviously well enough in the hands of an operator. But then again, my estimation is that you could have kept an old Mauser up and running all that time – or even some funky frog design (that uses the same direct impingement – I had to reach for that one ‘cause there’s only a couple of direct impingement designs besides the AR15). I’m not saying that it can’t be done, but the question is why throw extra effort into the equation if not completely necessary? And I’m not advocating running around with a dirty rifle either...

You’ve got a good point, how much reliability is “enough”? We all know that any machine will fail, given enough cause and / or time. So what benchmark should we use as “good enough”? I can’t answer that one – other than to give my standard “bigger hammer” answer: too much is never enough.

Interesting comparison - ejection port covers: XM8 doesn’t have one, SCAR doesn’t have one, 416 didn’t have one until the military demanded it be added (HK still claims that’s the only reason they added it to the original 416 release that didn’t have them) but the M4 has one. Gotta ask yourself why.

Likewise, the Stoner said his AR18 – developed after the adoption of the AR15 – was a more reliable design. Our military tested both, and backed up his claim – but then said that they’d already adopted the AR15 so too bad / too late. The SCAR-L and the XM8 are nothing more than repackaged AR18 operating systems – the 416 is a slightly modified / funki-fied AR18 system to stay within the design parameters given (essentially keep it as much like an AR15 as possible). Is it odd that they are more reliable than the AR15 operating system? Not that I’m advocating the XM8 (for sure!), and having never handled a SCAR-L I’m not sticking my neck out... The 416? Well, I’ll keep my mouth shut.

What I do notice is trends. They stick out mostly because there’s nothing new under the sun it appears – nothing truly novel in firearms design. Sure, little tweeks here and there (mostly ergonomics, materials, manufacturing), but the principle of operation all point back to a very few predecessors. I see the AR family as being a tree with no branches (only linear evolution, kind of like the family tree in a democrat household). Other designs flourish – like the Garand design.

I’m not drawing conclusions based on this, but I am drawing attention to the trend as being noteworthy. Now where do I get a bigger hammer?

Steve, I would recommend NOT trying to get one stick to to do both jobs. Trust me on this. I'd still take an M25 any day over a ratgun, and if I'm saying I wouldn't combine them...... I think you're on the right track though for combining a battle rifle and a spotters rifle. The XCR in 308 appears to be the ticket - assuming they build them in time for the liberal onslaught of 2008 (not enough people willing to vote for the person that best represents them - they figure it's a horse race that you bet on who will win). If not, then you're back to "second tier" answers - the AR10 and the FAL equipped for QD optics. In all honesty, I don't know where the POF falls in things, I've never got my hands on one. Alex told me that the XCR-M will use DPMS / AR10 308 mags, so you won't lose on proprietary mags.

Bravo
Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 23:14:34 (ZULU)

Bravo,

"...it’s hard to do your job properly when you’re told HOW you’re going to be doing it (by someone that doesn’t do it) and even more so when micromanaged. By someone that doesn’t do it."

Ummm.... ex-wife come to mind? DOH!

... now ducking for cover.... :8-o

Duman
Thursday, December 20, 2007, at 23:37:55 (ZULU)

Duman: Ha! Tactical dumps---are ya refering to the kind with the e-tool, or the one with the nasty plastic bags? I think, for decorum, I shall skip the details here...butt (!), your statement made me spit coffee!

Birdshooter: More like an 870 with #7 steel shot at the same ranges...

Joe M
Friday, December 21, 2007, at 03:35:10 (ZULU)

Gentlemen, Roster HAWGS, and Lurkers.

The thought for the Holiday Season is:

Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics.

Merry Christmas everyone. And Best Wishes for you and your loved ones whether far away or near to you. And everyone please say a special prayer for our brothers and sisters overseas, and the ones serving here at home.

Have a wonderful Christmas.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, December 21, 2007, at 05:40:17 (ZULU)

Bravo;

The reaction of the permangenate depends largely on the plastic used to make the bottle. You may want to do a quality check every so often to make sure the water is still good. A filter system using activated charcoal will help remove the flunky tastes when you are ready to use the water. 20ppm is some serious chlorination. EPA minimum chlorine residual for municipal water services is 0.2ppm with 3ppm being the highest most systems go. Superchlorination technique that is used to disinfect new water mains and tanks is 50ppm for 24 hours.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, December 21, 2007, at 09:35:47 (ZULU)

To All I just realized after an email that everyone's not stuck at home like myself, due to feed livestock and a small herd of dogs. So I'll still be here, but to everyone who's headed out for The Big Son's Birthday, MERRY CHRISTMAS. Like jc reminded us a few days ago, remember the reason for the season. Celebrate, but worship while doing so. Take extra time to send up a few prayers for those fighting and serving all over so that we, back here at home, may keep the right to do so. They may be fighting under the ruse of spreading democracy, but look what happened in the former USSR after the fall of comunism. There were a lot of christians that were allowed to come out of closet worshiping. Maybe while our guys are over there, a few seeds of Christianity will fall on fertile ground.

When the mightiest power on earth comes to town some will look and ask what God lets them have such power, and maybe it's time for a conversion.

How the heck did I get on a rant like that!?! Oh Well, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!! and if you don't believe in the SON Happy Hanukkah!

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, December 21, 2007, at 13:44:48 (ZULU)

jc: I read your suggestion to my wife. She laughed, and added one: "Dont' do anything you wouldn't want to see on You-Tube."

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, December 21, 2007, at 14:28:34 (ZULU)

Hmmm. Congress passes an "energy bill" that outlaws incandescent bulbs, I suppose in favor of flourescents. IIRC, the military treats such bulbs as hazardous waste, due to trace mercury(?) and the busted bulbs being generally bad for ya. So now we're going dump tons (daily) into the environment? Does anyone think in DC? And the mandated 35mpg--I really want to read about import restrictions included, if any, before i bitch--but, is this gonna f*** up my mid life crisis???? I mean, the choice is supposed to be between the new Camero and the new challenger...freakin' smarmy ex-lawyers! But this is only a minor overreach compared to the sneaky voice vote at the end of the session:

And they passed that psycho gun bill background check enhancement. Geee, the hold got lifted cause it included language that the guvmint will pay "successful" claims to re-instate your rights---while also including PTSD data from the VA and other military databases; in other words--this mandates the release of personal medical info, which will then be evaluated by medical experts?--No, by some bureaucrat bastard. If you get screwed out of your rights that you had yesterday by this administrative reaming---well, to bad--you must now "prove your innocence" to the very same government that just fucked ya. Great, and if this government decides it was wrong in its classification of you as a psycho--then this said government has to pay you for your efforts to clear your name.

Does this frighten the hell out of any one else here--or am I the only nut job??? Grin.

But, yeah...I checked a block on redeployment forms once that I had sleep issues. So I guess this is going to screw me initially. And a shitload of other vets across this great nation as well...not the best group of folks to get riled up over unconstitutional Ben Dovers' that blows right by all due process. Man; this kinda shit just flames my...grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

GWB had better veto this crap.

I don't ask for much (other than advice)---

but can we flood the WH servers with original emails against this bad law???? Implore a veto??? Maybe hit your reps and sentors too to prevent an override?

This must not become law as written.

Joe M
Friday, December 21, 2007, at 14:51:06 (ZULU)

JoeM,

"IIRC, the military treats such bulbs as hazardous waste, due to trace mercury(?) and the busted bulbs being generally bad for ya. So now we're going dump tons (daily) into the environment?"

Yep, that's about the sum total. Now the next step will be to outlaw flourescent lights for LEDs. You don't EVEN want to know what chemicals are used in making LEDs for lighting.

Duman
Friday, December 21, 2007, at 15:49:15 (ZULU)

Joe, post a link to wherever you heard about that vote! I looked around the web, and couldn't find it. Probably means it was a provision burried in another bill. Lets gat as many specifics on the table here as we can, cause that'll make the staffers sit up & notice when they get e-mails for people who know what they've done.

SSG Mac
Friday, December 21, 2007, at 18:14:17 (ZULU)

JoeM:

Let's wait and see what SCOTUS has to say about the 2nd and individual rights before we get all wrapped around this particular axle. Then, we just refuse to give 'em the guns, no matter what they say....fuck 'em, we have the guns, that's the 99.9% of the argument right there.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, December 21, 2007, at 18:38:51 (ZULU)

Mac:

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/Congress_OKs_Va_Tech-Insp/2007/12/19/58448.html--or click

Charles, if this gets signed, or ignored--then it is law long before oral arguments in SCOTUS begin. Sure it will take a while to get rolling on the databases, but I am not sure that SCOTUS will strike down this law even if they do rule for the individual right---reasonable exceptions will likely be allowed with a carefully worded, narrowly decided victory for us.

What chaffes my ass bad here is that I (or someone just like myself) will suddenly find themselves unable to buy firarms (Wis does backgrounds on rifles too) the day after they legally could buy one--just like that. Then, the burden of proof is on I or them to regain their rights. That is pure BS; our founders wrote a very good document that was designed to prevent a government from even contemplating this sort of action.

Slippery slope? I've heard that phrase--and heard the counter that "this is America--it could never happen here; this law or that law is narrow and only applies to a few gun owners (or land owners, or businessmen)" It is the old "but the ends justify the means" argument---and exactly why it WILL happen here. Totalitarian rule. Socialism cannot function thru human nature without a thorough police state limiting the "cheaters" who want more than the next guy. And it is hard to acheive a totalitarian police state with armed citizens running about...and therefore hard to administer socilized programs like national healthcare and greater income redistributions. Is anyone listening to Hillery, John and Barrack vying to give away the most treasury notes to "the poor" as they try to buy the presidency??? Hello?

Little by little meaningless laws meant to combat high profile "problems", for about 95 years now, adds up to quite a mess far beyond the limits of the constitution--and the law designed to "get mobsters" seems to do just fine getting anyone who pisses off the powers that be lately, eh? Hate crime laws, RICO--we are talking crimes of intent with these and others like them; thought crimes divined by those with the keys to the grand jury room. Well, how long before someone decides that these laws--purportedly to be used against skinheads or gangstas decides that you who voice opposition are in violation as well? Christ (and happy birthday, savior), it has started already! There are abuses reported in every jurisdiction--not hard to find if you bother to look. Most do not...they hardly care.

Erosions of rights under the pretence of the greater good is a slippery slope. Just because RICO, the IRS, FICA and the Fed predate us and "have always been" doesn't make them right--we are just used to them. Indoctrination. Chip another right off the bill of ten, and wait for the next generation to forget about it. The last one was emminent domain; now "public use" is not a requirement to steal your land---just a better "public purpose" provided by any one who wants to buy himself a city council or county board. My son, once he becomes a little more politically aware--may never miss the "old days." OK, not if i can help that--I take his civics lessons seriously since "government-run schools" got away from the education business---but I am an oddball in the larger population (I suspect I am right at home on this forum).

Politicians, unwittingly or with intent, have made this slippery slope a slight decline to go unnoticed. Hell--even when you cite specific examples of the expansion of a law that results in tighter and tighter restrictions on the average man's rights---people still think you are nuts to say such things. Sheeple just do not connect dots worth a damn!

Yeah...I suppose I am pissed about this new law. The intent is to prevent psychos from getting guns after going bonkers--which seems perfectly reasonable. But in the haste to "do something" with all the right intentions--they are aiming right at almost every GWOT/ Vietnam era vet with their (perhaps) unintended consequences. That's a hint at how I really feel about this...but I promised not to say so out loud here. If I am nuts, then I demand that it gets proven in a court of law. And, while we are at it---I want to see the probable cause in discovery that led to the charges filed (to be followed immediately by a motion to dismiss under the fifth ammendment among others). My VA records may not be enough to catch the hassle--that I won't know til denied these rights. At which point---I take on expenses today for reimbursement tomorrow--but only if they "allow" my successful challenge. That is backasswards from all i know of my country's founding principles.

Joe M
Friday, December 21, 2007, at 21:25:51 (ZULU)

On the bill: I haven't read the specific language of the compromise, but did read parts of the original bill before it got a "hold." In it, there is no requirement for adjudication under the courts to determine who is sane or insane--indeed, a notefrom an agency so charged can do this. If i piss off a functionary in the VA, boom, I am now mysteriously unable to own guns. As it was--there is no check and balance to it. The only change as far as i can tell is that now they will pay once i clear myself (after i pay to do so).

The good news is this is bad law from an emotive desire to take action. It is vulnerable under numerous challenges. Reasonable expectation of privacy and the fifth ammendment for the any self-incriminating evidence culled from priveledged records (which, BTW, are protected under another draconian statute themselves which specifically targeted government functionaries who used to disclose confidential patient info with impunity---hefty fines and very, very narrow disclosure under law that, if not specifically addressed somewhere in this new bill makes one helluva conflict with criminal consequences for anyone who takes my rights:)); it flies in the face of "ex post facto" in that (using me as an example) I was perfectly legal, despite any loss of sleep, prior to this law and can prove it by showing receipts obtained in the intervals; Violates due process and habeus corpus; hell--it won't stand anywhere outside of the nineth circuit!

That's the good news. The bad news is we have lawmakers who could care less. They passed this abortion.

Joe M
Friday, December 21, 2007, at 21:42:28 (ZULU)

Interesting article on the cultural (not religious) clash

between the West and SW Asia.

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=175169

or click my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, December 21, 2007, at 21:48:00 (ZULU)

Joe:

The background material on the enhanced instant check (in the US) I have seen is that many vets have *already* been shafted on the PTSD thing. This at least provides a better mechanism to get relief from the prohibition. Agree it's not all positive.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, December 21, 2007, at 21:57:04 (ZULU)

Joe: email inboud thru the roster.

SSG Mac
Friday, December 21, 2007, at 22:10:34 (ZULU)

Rod, no offense meant here--but by saying "This at least provides a better mechanism to get relief from the prohibition" proves my point succinctly on the slow slide down the slippery slope. Canada is much farther down the trail to abolishing individualism for the greater good--the ol' collective; so it follows that it would appear "better than nothing" to those with even less rights. Over time, we all might agree that serving the government as a subject is fine--for it gives us our wheat. If that is all you know--what is there to miss? The trick is to do it in small steps.

Good luck with your "Rambo knives" ban being peddled thru the system as we speak;))

No written word should ever bother anyone, unless you do not get to say how the words are interpretted. And that is where the danger lies for individual rights. Who gets to say what the words mean.

I think Ron Paul is out to lunch on Islam and negotiations with Iran--but I am starting to believethat his other message is far, far more important to this republic. Indeed, all he needs is a slap in the face ala 9/11 as he tried to accede to the demand of an "infidel-free Holyland" to bring him right back to the bigger hammer theory of realpolitik. I am at the tipping point of judging the loss of liberty as worse than a few nuked liberal hotbed coastal cities (followed by a renewed GWOT with a vengence).

I just opened email to see what Mac had to say, and I also got a JPFO alert on this legislation---very unflattering to the NRA-ILA.

I'd be glad to "quote it/ post it" here if anyone is interested in what they said on this topic. Bombadiers on the gun rights; these guys crack me up with their dedication. Their stances may seem extreme...but history shows they are right in that there is no other way to settle this; it takes a hardline stance against all such measures---because a little one now leads to a bigger hit on our rights later...justlook at the erosion since 1934 when this all began at the federal level. Hell, it started in localities even before then--very small steps there!

And if you think the DC case is a slam dunk---it all rides on how Justice Kennedy sees it. He is the odds-on favortie to set the majority. And he has been unusually quiet on this subject.

This could the be the worse of it all---long before the election.

Joe M
Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 00:11:21 (ZULU)

"I am at the tipping point of judging the loss of liberty as worse than a few nuked liberal hotbed coastal cities (followed by a renewed GWOT with a vengence)."

I think the tri-state has endured enough on behalf of the Union.... how's about Chi-town next.... you downwind?

medicjim
Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 00:33:07 (ZULU)

Joe:

Not holding out Canada as a shining model to emulate. They also play the salami-slicing/frog boiling game too.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 00:38:34 (ZULU)

Joe:

The "Rambo Knives" thing is a provincial initative, primarily in Quebec. Many Quebec politicians love restricting just about anything. Not a sentiment as universally embraced at a Federal level, or even in other provinces. Quebec's current gov't is also a different party than the party in power Federally.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=a9fa4590-7f30-433e-9629-59a1ef1feb23&k=99106

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 00:44:40 (ZULU)

MedicJim: I hear you. But the route we've been on lately--someone, somewhere is going to be the victim of our "wishing away" of this threat. Iran "suspended their bomb making program" right? But they are enriching Uranium with 3K centrifiges running nonstop. I wonder, how many reactors do they have again? Sure...its all about peaceful purposes. They'll be peaceful when Tel Aviv and New Yawk lie in ruin with a slight glow. Sorry MedicJim, but the big apple has many economic incentives for an enemy targeting matrix. The dense population is also a draw. When you look at the maps---most HVTs are coastal--which also gives you multiple insertion options. I'd also worry if i lived in a southern border region...

Rod: Just wait;)) Our gun laws grew out of a few eastern towns banning sixguns. Trust me, you are just one stabbing away from a federal ban. I wasn't meaning to pick on you---but instead to highlight the process and the effects of the slow bleed on our thinking. The loss of freedom doesn't come in one big omnibus bill--it is sold with a million little ones over time and even generations, all wrapped in pretty do-good bows with frills.

"They came for my neighbors Rambo Knife, and I did nothing..."

Bawhawhawhaw:))

Joe M
Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 01:32:24 (ZULU)

MedicJim: You talking San Fran? Now how about this for a moral dilemma: You stumble onto a plot to nuke that town...

Heheh. yeah; we'd do the right thing---but only after imagining the effects:))))

Joe M
Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 01:37:55 (ZULU)

Joe:

Canada has been suffering from legislative incrementalism for decades (too). The gun owners in Canada are sometimes their own worse enemy. The various factions have many folks who don't understand that just because their ox is not currently being gored doesn't mean it won't be eventually. So you get the shotgunners looking down on everyone else, the rifle shooters looking down on the handgunners, and the range shooters looking down on the hunters. Various past Canadian federal governments have used salami slicing tactics, making one class of firearm prohibited and others restricted. They then move over one square and repeat the process. Various shooting incidents by loons have motivated Canadian legislation in this realm.

The progression has moved thru full auto, cosmetically challenged semi-auto rifles and some handguns so far, with each moving from restricted to prohibited with grandfathering and even prohibited in some cases.

California and Canada seems to be in a neck-in-neck race for who can prohibit models faster.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 02:05:12 (ZULU)

Joe, I meant Chicago.

I'm about 30 miles west of Manhattan...a real nuke during the work day would kill about half the people I know. That's assuming a normal weather pattern.

medicjim
Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 02:42:14 (ZULU)

OH! If Chi-town gets one--i can just watch nice sunsets like you...but if Minnie gets one, I'm probably on the northern edge of a southeasterly fallout pattern--depending on the winds. It would be maybe 50/ 50 on impacting me. (I read a few extra letters into the "chi"--and thought chinatown in SF's waterfront area; I'm not usually that big of a dunce...a small dunce, sure, but not usually so dang illiterate)

On the mag subject: USGI beer-can AR mags vs. Para Ordnance propietary hi-caps--given a hobsen's choice of picking one or the other NIB untested by me to stake my life on--I'll go with the USGI hands down. The sheer numbers of "no problemo" mags for the AR contrasts against the 1 in 4 "needs wolff magic fix springs" mags from my paras makes this a no=brainer. Still, test them in training before betting your life on them. The USGI contract mag will not go bad just laying around without some serious abuse. My para mags have proven unreliable in near-predictable percentage.

Geoff: I gots the bludie mari micks doun to a psy-yonce. hic...it wuz all aboot duh glaz psyze---a 12 ownce glaz werked hic...now eye kneed a knew bottul of vodkuh 2 perfekt it. I tink 2 morrow gonna sux....hic.

(next time you bring booze--better take it home or Angie will start to blame you for my stupidity---heheh--the third one was killer good)

Joe M
Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 02:53:36 (ZULU)

For those of us who can't let go of the Model 70.

http://winchesterguns.com/catalog/catagory.asp?cat=001C

Gary Kaney
N.W., IL, - Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 11:43:53 (ZULU)

To many cans of BUSCH last night.

http://press.winchesterguns.com/catalog/category.asp?cat=001C

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 11:58:51 (ZULU)

HOT OF THE SCREEN; Charlie Wilsons War Review

Just went to see the opening of it last night. I'm not sure what the reviewers have had to say, being as how most of them are liberals, and working for liberal newspapers, I thought I'd give my review.

It's not a chick flick, unless your chick is a right wing conservative or has a Poly Sci degree. It's very well told, as in it's the truth. Definately not one of those Hollywood, scare everyone out of Iraq movies, or Michael Moore type. Since it's history, or at least based on it, I can't ruin the ending for you, as most of us in here are pretty much up on our geopolitical history. The Soviets lose! What kept me interested, and that's hard to do, is how the history is told. The people in the movie are are played as true to life as possible, and still make a good movie. It's NOT a War movie. It's how the covert war was fought movie. And after seeing a "how it was made" on one of the movie channels, it seems that the real life poeple are as portraied in the movie. I also liked the subtle hints on what would happen to Iraq if we "just pull 'em out" and not stay the course to see the country come to peace with our help. The movie also takes time to educate the public on the way things work over there. As in, just because you help someone doesn't mean they know where the help is coming from, and are going to be grateful afterwards. Communications don't work like that there. not everyone has the internet, television, or even a simple radio for that matter. If we don't do the right thing in Iraq now, we'll have another Afganastan on our hands in 20 years. BRAVO Hollywood, for telling it right and not slanting it to the left.

Gary, Thanks for that link. The world is not doomed after all.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 14:43:00 (ZULU)

Jeff:

Tks for the review of "Charlie Wilson's War". I had read the book earlier, was planning on a Monday matinee showing. I was concerned that Hollywood would try and make it into a slapstick comedy, perhaps they did something right for a change.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 15:33:29 (ZULU)

Belgian Melinios (SP.)

The wife wants a gaurd dog and mentioned the above. Any info will be appreciated.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, December 22, 2007, at 20:10:08 (ZULU)

Gary: I know a guy heavy into trials with these dogs; he lives across the river in minnie. His is one smart, well trained pup! Also, click my name for the ol' rescue website. Dunno about this one, but usually you fill out a lengthy on line form and they check out your creds--if they deem you're fit; then choose from the list. As far as prices go for the registered kennels and full training, I believe my bud is north of 5 grand in his dog--and she wins nice trophies in the competitions. I watched one where the dogs take down a dude, has to traverse a car to the offside to get a dude getting out, choosing the dude with a gun from agroup (all suited up of course) and the big obstacle courses. It freaked me out to watch this sweet little dog tear ass like she did:)) I'd hate to be on her bad side after seeing that.

Gents: Gary is a heck of a gentleman. He delivered a large steel gong target to the farm, going well out of his way while handling a family matter to the south. Heheh, he also caught me in the lazy mode with the house a wreck too:)) But he (yeah you, Gary) is always welcome here to shoot guns or the breeze at any time!

Joe M
Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 00:24:07 (ZULU)

Click.

Vegan nightmare. cool as hell for the kid and his proud grandpa.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 01:37:56 (ZULU)

This is not my work, and I don't know who wrote it. Enjoy.

BTW, we got over eight inches of snow today. Barring Al Gore showing up and melting it all, we'll have a really white Christmas!

Merry Christmas!

The Night before Christmas (as it should be........)

'Twas the night before Christmas,

cold, dark and foreboding,

I sat at the work bench,

quite busy reloading.

The empties from autumn were polished so clear

for primers and powder and bullets from Speer

and Hornady´s soft-points, and Nosler´s Partitions

(my bench Ain’t no place for brand

name omissions!).

All sat in their boxes, right next to the

press with dies from Pacific, and RCBS,

when all of a sudden there came such a jolt,

I grabbed for my Benelli and whipped out my Colt.

As I spilled Hodgdon's powder all over the shelf,

I scrambled for cover, just to protect myself.

From up on the rooftop, came hoofbeats and snorting

like the noise out of L'il Rock from Clinton's cavorting!

I eased off the safety to press-check my

auto with 230-talons I'll knock 'em all blotto.

Were these rogue federal agents sent by Schumer and Reno ?

Or a staggering Ted Kennedy, in bad need of vino?

My question was answered with a knock, and some sneezing,

"It's Santa, you moron, lemme in there, I'm freezing!"

I flipped off the dead-bolt and threw the door wide

to find St. Nick a shivering, Rudolph by his side.

He eyeballed my A.K. with a nod of approval

"You're all set," he said, "for dirtball removal."

"But this is no raid, we're not here to harm you

nor persecute, prosecute, nor even disarm you."

"Instead," said dear Santa, "I needed to borrow

your .357 'till day after tomorrow."

"It's okay," he assured me, with a hint of frustration,

"I'm enrolled in the National Rifle Association."

He showed me his card, 'twas a Life Member rating,

"I've had this since me and the missus were dating!"

"And you see, Dave, ol' buddy, I've gotten real nervous

since Feinstein was elected with a promise to serve us.

So henceforth as I'm out there, my presents a stackin',

I want to assure you, I'm legally packin'',

and my gift for you this year should give you a hoot

I've told the Supreme Court to give Brady the boot!

Now, Rudy and I must be on our way,"

he said as he climbed back in his sleigh.

With the reins in his hand and my Colt in his pocket,

he jingled the sleighbells and was off like a rocket.

With a pair of speedloaders and ammo to spare,

I knew he'd be safe, he was loaded for bear!

As he faded from view, I could still hear him calling

"From D.C., where 'P.C.' is already falling.

To bad guys in L.A. , Detroit and Atlanta ,

"I'm licensed to carry, don't go messin' with Santa!"

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., (the southern arctic) - Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 02:18:56 (ZULU)

The "True" story of Charlie Wilson's war was on the History Channel tonight...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 03:17:05 (ZULU)

Rod there was some humor in it but it wasn't distracting form the plot and didn't interfear with the telling of the story. Most of it was dry wit, not laugh out loud. It starts with a gratidious nudity scene, and immediately you think the movies getting off on the wrong foot. It's gone soon, and it was what was happening at the time and was necessary for a later part in the movie. I think it gives a true account of his life, he was known ot be a partier. This is IMHO gained from what I saw in the "making of the Charlie Wilsons War" show I watched which included interviews with some of the real persons. Of course Hollywood had to boost it a little, but I don't think they didn't ruin it.

I'll have to catch the true story on the history channel when they rerun it.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 04:41:19 (ZULU)

Joe

I'll take you up on that.

My uncle was a medic in WWII. He fought at Bastone. I take notes everytime i'm with him. I'm going to miss that guy.

Gary Kaney
NW, ILL, - Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 10:53:56 (ZULU)

From the Milwaukee Urinal/Sentinel:

"Bill would limit seizing of guns

Legislators look to curb power allowed during emergencies

By PATRICK MARLEY

pmarley@journalsentinel.com

Posted: Dec. 22, 2007

Madison - State lawmakers want to clip the power of the governor and local officials to seize people's guns during emergencies, saying that authority could trample the rights of citizens.

Legislators said they decided to try to curb those powers after seeing New Orleans police officers take guns from people during the recovery from Hurricane Katrina in 2005.

The Republican-run Assembly passed the bill this month on a bipartisan 84-13 vote, and the Democratic-led Senate is looking at doing the same soon.

"I just think it's important that if there ever is a disaster similar to Katrina, that citizens are able to defend themselves, their families and their property and not be worried about government coming and confiscating their firearms," said Rep. Scott Gunderson (R-Waterford), the sponsor of the bill.

But Rep. Fred Kessler (D-Milwaukee) said he was worried the bill goes too far. He said he recalls seeing the police stop vigilantes with guns from entering Milwaukee when it was gripped by civil unrest in 1967.

He said that around that time, a man trained a gun on him from a third-floor window as Kessler walked down Juneau Ave.

"I thought, 'Oh, my, my. . . he may just kill me,' " Kessler said. "That incident was very vivid in my mind."

Police must be able to fully protect people during such times, he said.

"I don't want to seize guns," he said. "I want to limit the transportation of weapons into areas of confrontation."

Kessler was one of 13 Democrats to vote against the bill. Thirty-three Democrats joined 51 Republicans to pass the measure.

The governor, the adjutant general who runs the Wisconsin National Guard and local officials have long been able to exercise emergency powers during disasters or civil unrest. The bill would prohibit those officials from using their emergency powers to "restrict the lawful possession, transfer, sale, transport, storage, display or use of firearms or ammunition."

Twenty-one other states, including Louisiana, have passed similar laws since Hurricane Katrina, according to the National Rifle Association, which backs the law.

The proposed law in Wisconsin is broader than some. For instance, the Louisiana law provides an exemption that gives police the power to take a gun from someone if they believe they need to do so to protect themselves or others.

But Gunderson said his bill would not curb the normal powers of the police because they would be able to do the same things during emergencies that they can do during other times. Officers could set up roadblocks to stop traffic if needed, which would prevent everyone - including those transporting firearms - from getting into specific areas, he said.

Senate Majority Leader Russ Decker (D-Weston) said he would like his house to pass the bill soon.

"I think people's homes are their castles, and law-abiding citizens that are playing by the rules ought to have a protection that government is not going to intrude on their property," Decker said.

"This is more than just a gun issue. This is an invasion of law-abiding people's residences by government officials - you shouldn't be able to do that without cause."

Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle will review the bill if it gets to him to decide whether to sign it, aide Carla Vigue said.

"We really need to understand the implications of curtailing the powers of emergency management during a time of crisis," Vigue said.

End Article

I was a manager at the RR, and I was involved in planning an emergency response exercise a few years ago. It involved all the city officials including the FD and PD, and the regional FEMA manager. I cooked up a very plausible scenario (train derailment with hazmat). The train derailed and cut the town in half. Ironically, the Middle School and the High School were on one side of the tracks less than a 1/4 mile away. The school bus company was immediately next to the tracks, downwind, on the OTHER side.....thus both contaminated and cut off from both schools. It was a great scenario.....and it was probably the most likely one. Without going into a lot of detail, let's just say that the local officials including the chief of police, were aghast at the suggestion of "why don't we organize the parents so we can work with them and use their vehicles for an immediate mass evacuation instead of allowing the kids to die in place while we wait for buses from the next township (my suggestion). The police chief especially looked like he had just swallowed a large turd. The local citizenry were viewed in this planning event as objects to be controlled and dealt with rather than people with rights, much less people with skills or talents to be utilized.....or even people with working vehicles that are desperately needed right now! Amazing.

Met up with Ken M.....he's an understated guy that I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of! Great taste in rifles too....much better than mine. Keep this up and we'll have the makings of a decent sized Roster Shoot here......

Geoff M
WI, USA - Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 13:00:48 (ZULU)

I haven't seen it but - since it is Hollywood - I would be alert for revisionist history in "Charlie Wilson's War". The Dems have been claiming credit for the fall of the Soviet Union since it happened. Anybody who was paying attention at the time knows that's a large load of horseshit.

As the Poles said at the time, "The SU didn't fall. Reagan pushed it."

Click my name.

CDC'
Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 13:13:34 (ZULU)

Geoff,

You are dead on with the Emergency Management types. The thing that perplexes me is that every single time I've engaged the willing public in supplementing my force (which is a fairly frequent occurrance), I am not only impressed with their performance, but my belief in "the people" as a whole is renewed (and remember, we are talkiing NJ here!). I present these direct facts to my peers and they turn into irrational boobs instantaneously.

The bias is not unique to Fire and Police....all government, to include the armed services have the exact same problem.

medicjim
Sunday, December 23, 2007, at 14:13:05 (ZULU)

Geoff & Jim (Hmm, sounds like that ought to be a Whiskey Brand) The attitude you both describe come from the "Professional" identification within these groups. "Better leave it to the professionals" becomes an article of faith for some, mostly those with self-confidence problems of thier own.

This view of the public as a bunch of incompetent rubes is strange: the most competent (and nearly the wealthiest) man I've ever known is a dirt farmer who got into general contracting as a sideline. He looks like a cartoon characterization of a H