Sniper Country Duty Roster

Pat asked-"Where is camp McCoy"

Why it's right here under my ass, son...Heheh. Couldn't resist being a smart ass...but to be specific, I90 and I94 come out of Chicago seperately (one to Milwaukee, the other further west), and link up again in Madison. About 90 miles north of Madison, they split off again. The area above and between that intersection is Fort McCoy. The most convenient airport is Lacrosse, the least expensive is Minnie-St Paul or Chicago. Amtrack comes into Tomah (local 'berg) and the Buses run there too. If I am still around by then, I can send a fifteen-pax van out for trans from everywhere except Chi-town.

With the exception of Rick's ranges--the ranges here are better than most of them at Bragg. Big political bucks poured into this hole during Clinton's reign.

The billeting should be free, as long as no one minds an open bay two story WWII "theater Construction, temporary wood frame structure" that is modernized to include heat (likely) or air (yeah right). I think the many layers of paint hide the fact that the frames rotted out 50 years back! Heheh. Kevin, the coal you would remember here is gone finally, about ten years ago, they converted.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:14:30 (ZULU)

A match at Ft. McCoy?

I can't pass this up. Count me in as well.

What's the course of fire?

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:39:38 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with the shooting mats that Tactical Tailor sells. They are very reasonably priced, and I was curious if anyone had any comments about their quality. $75 is a lot cheaper that something like a SMRA from Eagle.

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMO, MO, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 00:48:42 (ZULU)

Ken M, Mail inbound regarding McCoy Match, NA.

Spent some time there one summer early 80's. Most of it was in the medical clinic telling reservist that the had to go back to duty and passing out big doses of penicillin for what ailed em! BTW the officers quarters were only slightly less delapidated than the enlisted digs. We did however get AC for the med clinic. One of those don't ask, don't tell arraingements.

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 01:07:19 (ZULU)

Evening Gents,

Robert: That is hands down the funniest thing I have read in quite some time. If the rest are like that, take up all the bandwith you want. DSL can handle it...

Brian: I've spent a ridiculous amount of time in a wetsuit. I cant even take a piss in one, much less pitch a loaf. The "Olympics" necessary to get into and out of a wetsuit are worth not doing that to oneself. eeeyyyaaagggghhhh. Cant even picture it. Hope the ducks were worth it to your friend. The Boss told me this one the other day...

What will a Cajun eat?

1. Anything with 2 legs thats not a person

2. Anything with 4 legs thats not a table

3. ANYTHING that lives in the water

I believe we would fry mosquitos if we could figure out a way to filet them.

Bolt: I'm sympathetic. I was in Norfolk in '96. Probably the best thing I learned about that snow-stuff was stay away from snow covered curbs. Old Dominions curbs gently sloped towards the road. Add a few inches of the cold, wet, fluffy stuff, and an invincible 21 yr old from Manchac Swamp and you get disaster in the form of said invincible Cajun-Machinist Mate 3rd class shooting out into the street. Kinda looked like going down a waterslide into oncoming traffic. All said and done, I'm happy to be back by the Swamp.

On another note, Is there such a thing as a Simunition .308 training round? If so, do they require modifications?

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 01:45:09 (ZULU)

Hey Robert H, and John...

If you're gonna paste junk you get in e-mails to the Roster... PLEASE clean it up, and take the dead space and ">>s" out so it doesn't look like shit, and take up 10 screens worth of space... P-L-E-A-S-E!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:17:28 (ZULU)

Jerry S. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Grasshopper: That was great that you let that guy use your rifle.I scored his target and he shot exellent for a first timer, hopefully he is hooked . But why did you steer him away from a PSS? Mine shoots better than I do and my partner won the match that day with a PSS, with a score of 302. Just curious Dan H.

Dan H. <hogans@cmc.net>
chico , Ca, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:24:50 (ZULU)

OK. Stoopid novice question. Again.

Ordered a stock from Bell and Carlson for a Sako Forester. Sent it back, for quality reasons not worth describing. The replacement was bad, but not AS bad. (The action and bottom metal alignment on the second stock were so far off that the action screws would not even thread into the holes.) Fixed that problem with a dremel tool (on the stock).

Going to bed it, if only to fill in big gaps. Figure first the action, then the bottom guard, then the barrell, in three separate steps. (Need to raise the guard - it is too deep.)

Question: Is there a better, easier to work with bedding compound than the Brownell's Accu-Glass, which is all I have ever used? I have read here about marine-tex or something. Is this a 2-part epoxy? Looking for something simple that I can use in steps. With the Accu-Glass, it is an all-at-once thing, and I will have to buy three kits.

Thanks for any suggestion. If this is too simple for this list, private e-mail is fine and much appreciated. Don't want to bore (boor) anyone. Thanks.

P. M. Hayden <pmhayden@yahoo.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 04:01:31 (ZULU)

Dang guys, I get sent away to in-service training and miss all the fun, you guys have a spirited discussion on pistols, and the boys here at home got to go out and play without me. Two BG's in jail and one less Meth lab out here in the boonies.

Brian - have you ever had that bad-assed pepper spray fail ya. A few years ago I arrested a guy for shoplifting and assaulting the store manager who tried to stop him. Well, he didn't take to kindly to being arrested and started to resist, alot, if you know what I mean. We had just finished the training and had been issued our new shiny cans of pepper so I figured I'd give it a try in the real world. (hell, it made me cry like a friggen baby when they sprayed me in training.) I sprayed this guy until his face was orange, he licked it off of his lips and said that it tasted pretty good. Never did have an effect on him, I had to do it the old fashioned way but finally got him cuffed. Used it a number of times since then and it has worked great, but that first time was the shits.

Color-coded Conditions: Our team was called out, looking for two guys who had burned down an apartment complex that was under construction, then bragged about doing it as well as how many of us hick town cops they would take out if we tried to arrest them. We knew they were in a second floor apt. in another complex. I was the first one in the building and as I waited for the rest of the team to group behind me the BG's came down the stairs and into the hallway. I went to my knees, whipped up the AR-15 and yelled "freeze" as the guy behind me brought his shotgun into play. They both reached for the ceiling yelling "please don't shoot", it was then that I noticed that the one on the left had a dark stain on the front of his pants and a puddle forming on the floor. Would that be considered condition "yellow"? :) :)

Sorry for the bandwidth guys.

Ya'll Take Care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 09:04:55 (ZULU)

Ken M.

Emailed ya re: match. N/A.

Chase T.

.308 simunition...OUCH! Those ain't paintballs my man.

J.Hugdahl,

Wisconsin sounds friendly 'nuff. One of us is gonna have to get a nickname.

Chris, email. N/A

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 09:45:13 (ZULU)

This one is for any one of you guys. The question is, How do I maintain or should I say temporary clean bottom side of my free floating barrel without having to take the stick apart for a major maintenance ? I would appreciate any pointers.

On a none related note, did anyone hear about the new sniper movie "Sniper 2" primier on 28 Dec 02. on Cinemax? Not important, just viewing :)

Thanks

Eduardo Cotto <Eduardocotto@hotmail.com>
Bay, Michigan, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 10:09:31 (ZULU)

Eduardo,

If I suspect there's junk in the channel I take a business card and slide it under the barrel in front of the recoil jug/barrel pad and pull it out toward the muzzle. If I think I'm going to get it filled,. I'll take a piece of 550 cord gut and slip it in before leaving the truck. Then when I get to where I need to be I just grab it and pull it out the front and it's clear.

The second tip learned right here, thanks Undude.

Bell and Carson,

I'm hearing that Remington has switched over to Bell and Carson stocks for the VS models. Can anyone confirm that? That would seriously harm their worth IMHO,, as the B&C isn't even worth as much as a trade in. Not saying they are POS stocks,, but not as good as HS IMHO.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Dec 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 11:26:11 (ZULU)

Robert,

Yep. OC don't always work. Specially some Cajuns, they use it for pasta topping.

Here in Southeast WI, a couple years ago, a local State Trooper was in a car chase with an armed bank robber, shots had been fired at the scene. Chase ended with a crash at a north IL toll both. Trooper got out to go on foot chase. BG stopped, wanted to fight, no gun in sight. Trooper got out his new shiney can-o-spray and let BG have a face full. Hmm, nothing, a fight was on. Turns out he too had just come back from OC training, ended up with a can of INERT training spray. Way Bad juju. Anaway, the BG fights him, lands a Mike Tyson straight to the face, concussion results, Trooper gets a bear hold cause he can't see past all the stars & birdies floatin round his head. Suddenly the BG reaches over his shoulder blasting with a gun. You guessed it, the troopers gun. Murphy was there for both as the first round fired by BG was to his own head. Lucky for Trooper, his head was at BG's right shoulder, BG shot over, or tried to, his left shoulder. BG went to dirt like a sac-o-spuds. Trooper, still dazed and bleeding, was wondering where BG got a gun till he went for his holster. Oh crap! At least it ended ok. Damned folks at Trooper training station had issued a few folks some of the inert stuff I heard.

Kinda like .308 simmunitions, NO WAY. Surely would still be potentially lethal.

out

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of Good ole A - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 11:30:16 (ZULU)

Dang it 'Lito, how come you always gots to bust my bubble? He,he.

Did I get a passing grade on my correction? Now it'll take all day to get my brain back in order. (or is that disorder.)

John

John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 11:39:37 (ZULU)

SniperII?

Was the first one such a triumph?

All pepper spray would do to my wife is give her a hankerin' for crab claws, lemon grass and a side of jasmine rice.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:20:05 (ZULU)

Thanks to all you guys who offered directions to Camp McCoy!! I actually found it on the map.

Bell&Carlson stocks...

My brother bought one for his Sako and he couldn't even get the action screws in it. If you turned it upside down and looked down it, it looked like a bow instead of a rifle stock.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:29:06 (ZULU)

P. M. Hayden...

Accra-glsss is probably the worst I have ever used. Marine Tex is very good, as is Microbed. Micro-bed can be mixed in as small a quanity you want. Also Brownells "Steel Bed" is great, and can also be mixed in whatever amount you want. Make sure you use a good release agent, or you will be an unhappy camper (read the archives about a month ago :(((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 13:45:15 (ZULU)

Smallpox vaccinations. Oh joy.

I remember getting mine when I was a kid. There was always somebody knocking the scab off and I felt just as bad.

http://msnbc.com/news/843411.asp?0cv=NB10#BODY

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:01:51 (ZULU)

Guys anybody else make this connection, Saddum Insane says he's going to turn over the "I'm a good boy and don't have any nasty play toys" document a day earlier than it is required. It is suppose to be in on Dec. 8th. But he's giving it up on DECEMBER 7TH!!!! Ummmmm????

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:15:13 (ZULU)

Krauthammer's take on denying rogue regiemes WMDs. This is very good.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/964dzkuf.asp

To all you operational guys: It may be getting close to party time. Good luck.

Bedding kits: Natural Kiwi shoe polish works great for release agent.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:28:57 (ZULU)

Sarge...Ref Dec 7th.

Last time, we weren't ready. Would you hit Mike Tyson in the face while he was looking you in the eye saying "move and I'm gonna eat your ear!"?

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:54:31 (ZULU)

Sniper 2, is Berringer's attempt to make up for Sniper. He hired some 8541 instructors to work with and coach him. He wanted this one right. You should not see any BS gear. You might even see a sling or two that you recognize.LOL

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 14:57:04 (ZULU)

Bruce R.

I got the plates and stickers yesterday afternoon. Very nice, thanks.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, US - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:03:07 (ZULU)

Bell and Carlson bites the big weenie.

Remington dumped HS for a year or two (trying to go the cheaper route) went to BC and have since gone back to HS (for the VS, P and LTR models anyway). That was the last time I talked to Janice ? at HS Prec. Nice lady. Call. She'll give you the run down. Knows her shit.

Only way to tell the difference in the stocks is the trademark stamp on the bedding block inside, under the action. I sent all this to Snipersonline earlier this year after researching it but tossed the notes like a dumbass. Guess I ought to call her back.

It came up because on the B/C stocks, the swivel studs are threaded into the glass only, not the strength of the bedding block like the HSs are. That's why MC M puts a big T Nut or a big piece of steel in theirs to screw into IF YOU ASK FOR IT.

DOUGY: I swore to myself a long time ago not to judge another man until I had looked thru his scope. I have had it done to me and it too, bites the big weenie.

That said ... and correct me if I am missing something but ...

The cops got an ARMED ROBBERY (A Felony crime) with shots fired ? They stop the BG and ... ARE GOING TO USE MACE ??????????????????

Oh no, not here. Not initially anyway.

If that's all there is to it and there aren't any circumstances we don't know about (there usually is). That Trooper is damn lucky he didn't get his stupid ass killed.

I know State Police in a lot of places breed that "I shall fear no evil, baddest guy in the valley creedo" That is because they are often one man, far from back up and they don't want to teach them to QUIT when it gets dark and scary.

But the problem with that is, if you believe it too much, that's exactly where you will be walking.

Macho shit aside, ya gotta work smart. Always somebody badder'n you.

I'm preaching to the choir.

I have BSd my way out of more ass kickings than I can remember but then ... I know you guys find that hard to believe. heh heh

Tha brings up a good question.

Is BS a Martial Art ?

'Cause if it is, I think I am a Jedi.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:26:56 (ZULU)

The only thing wrong with the San Andreas Fault hasn't finished it's job and let San Francisco slide into the ocean (maybe with the rest of the state)... Why the hell San Francisco's Federal district court has jurisdiction over nine western states beats the hell outa me... that's like putting Pee-Wee Herman in charge of the NFL!!

This is the battle that we have wanted (and feared) for 65 years. We will either win real big, or our future as gun owners is doomed :(((

GO here:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/12/06/MN211218.DTL

Sniper II... in spite of many (and I do mean M-A-N-Y) flaws with the orginal "Sniper", I enjoyed it much more than "Enemy at the Gates", which I never even botherd to watch the ending... it sucked!

Hope Sniper-II corrects the errors, and keeps the good stuff.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:38:43 (ZULU)

Macintosh junkies...

I gots a problem :((

With my 9600, I had a hard crash, and it wouldn't re-start. I hooked up an emergency drive to boot on, and when booted, the main hard drive is now "Locked" (little lock icon on the top left of the window when I open the drive).

I can open the main drive window and click on stuff and some of it will open. Some of the programs will work if they don't need to access preferences or other things, cuz EVERYTHING in the drive is locked (can't be written to or moved).

I want to drag my files out to another (new, larger) drive, but it won't allow me to copy out my files... I can't drag anything out of the drive, can't copy anything out, I can't move anything in or out of it, and it won't boot cuz all the operating systen files are also locked... does anyone know how to unlock a locked hard-drive??

I tried Norton Disk Doctor, plus Lacie Silver, and other disk tools, and they all say the disk is looked (Duh!), but don't have a tool to unlock it.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp!!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter is here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:55:36 (ZULU)

Brian- If you mean Janet at HS Precision you are too late. If we are thinking of the same person you are right about her knowing her stuff. I'm not sure what has been going on at HS for the past year but several good people have left , JR and Janet being just two of them . I asked Jenet about some of the earlier departures and she gave me the party line. I have two of their rifles ,both "shoot" beyond expectations( thanks JR) but both had little problems that I wouldn't have expected. The most recent rifle was delivered with a bolt release that would bind on the stock ,so the first time I worked the bolt it came out in my hand. Rather than send it back , which is what they suggested, I fixed it myself.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:56:49 (ZULU)

Brian...

Janet is no more at H-S... they gave her the boot :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter is here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 15:58:15 (ZULU)

"Is BS a Martial Art ?"

Around here it is.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:00:22 (ZULU)

WOW. I wasnt expecting answers using caps. Maybe I should have found cover after that one. I guess everybody needs a little calibration once in a while. Let me try to clarify...

I am the "BG" for the local swat team and get to use 9mm Simunitions on a decently regular basis. 9mm is fine and as long as the required PPE is worn(I wear the helmet w/ goggles, throat protector, cup, lvl 3 vest, and gloves, longsleeves, etc)they dont hurt all that much.

I was thinking of something more along the lines of a "dumbed down" version for .308. Something with significantly less velocity than FED GMM. Maybe more like the velocities found with the 9mm or .40 simunitions. Just enough to get it out the barrell and have a comparable range to the pistol calibers or perhaps a bit farther. It might just be wishful thinking on my part as accuracy can be questionable and including the shooters position within the designated and sanitized safety area could be difficult to maintain. It takes two physical searches, empty pockets, and a metal detector search to get inside our areas. Once inside, you cannot leave.

We'll call this one my fault, as I should have been more clear with what I was asking. As always, any input is greatly appreciated.

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, 70403 - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:09:14 (ZULU)

aye, confirmed:

Janet Thompson, not Janice, is no longer at HS Precision. She's a good ol' gal, we still keep in touch, and youse guys are reeeeeaaaalllly gonna miss her if you have to call up HS.. Just keep this as a mental note, or write it down, if you have a technical question for HS, ask for Doug, accept no one else.. Only one left with a clue..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:17:48 (ZULU)

Undude -

Speer 30cal 190gr match: bc=0.54 (per Speer manual #12, printed 98)

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:30:28 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

subj: GA SC Duty Roster Rifles

I just got back from a Trip to Wisconsin. I took a tour of Rock Creek Barrels facility.

Mike Rock broke out the "White Carpet" for me. About 2 inches of snow.

I have never seen anyone who loves there job more than Mike. Upon entering his shop. I saw medium sized shop filled to the brim with all types of barrel making equipment. The first thing Mike showed me was the barrels he is making for George for the Roster Rifles. I fondled just about all of them...Bet you guys are Jealous now.

Mike then asks me what the barrel is that I ordered. I informed him it was a 308 cal for a 300Win Mag 1:10. He grabs a blank and starts a lecture on the procedures of drilling, contouring, fluting, rifleing of the barrels. During this time we are building my Barrel. He has his shop set up. So he starts one proceduce on one blank, moves to the next tooling machine, starts another and so on. When he gets a couple going. He goes back to the first just as it is finishing. Knowing the exact timing of each procedure.

Mike is an awesome guy who absolutely loves what he does, including teaching why things are done. I didnt have much time in the shop. I regretted that I had a plane to catch. But I learned alot and came away with an better understanding of barrel manufacturing and made a good friend.

There is know doubt in my mind why George uses Mikes barrels.

PS. Mike has a few new products/patents that will be anounced at the next Shot Show. All I can say is, Its a good time to be in Special Forces.

Bryan

bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:30:52 (ZULU)

10-4 on Janet being gone. A big loss for them in my book, she asked me for a recomendation letter and I wrote her a nice one. She was a class act in my book.

JR..

I would like to get a stock repainted out to H&S with the sand and spinich camo color to match my others. Who should I talk to about this would Doug be a go to guy for this??? Thanks!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:36:55 (ZULU)

Re: Tom Beringer

Sniper 2! Ha ha. What I'd really like to see is him playing Bob the Nailer in a film version of Point of Impact.

Alex Tham <atham@earthlink.net>
Diamond Bar, CA, US - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 16:40:36 (ZULU)

Urinating in a wet suit....ah, that sure does bring back the memories. Kinda like working for the SAPD, you get a warm feeling all over, but nobody notices. It all depends on the depth at which you try to do it. At Dreager depths, no sweat, it just kinda happens when you feel the urge. Regular scuba, you gotta really want it to happen, as you hafta equal the water pressure, and anything over 2 atmospheres requires some effort. 3 atmospheres, forget it, and any solid waste has to stay where it's at, 'cuz you really DON'T want to open yer sphincter when yer that deep.....unless you like being reminded of Granny's remedy for constipation. If my foggy memory serves me correctly, pucker factor prevents that, anyway.

They say we have to carry an intermedate weapon here for the SAPD, but have this dimwitted rule that you have to have it used on you, first, before you can carry it. So, they want me to get sprayed in the face before I can have pepper spray. Now, I may be from South Carolina, but I do have the capability to learn from others. I didn't let them shoot me before they gave me a pistol, and I'm not dumb enough to let someone rub a couple hundred jalapenos in my eyes for the privilege of carrying a can of superheated hairspray. Ever spit out the window and had it come back on ya? (if yer from Texas, you know what I mean) Now, if it hurts the peckerwood, it can hurt me. But I ain't never had a 36" piece of hickory bounce back on me whilst I was applyin' it to some dirtbag's melon....keep yer pepper spray.

CDC.....Thanks. I was just wanting to know so's I'd know where to go when I shoot this one out.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 17:00:29 (ZULU)

Guys,

sorry, but there is no fondling allowed in a Scottish barrel shop.. that is unless your voice is about 3 octaves higher than mine in addition to a considerable cup size. If you meet those qualifications, fondle away, but the barrelmaker gets first dibs..

Hellllooooo Nurse!

It is kinda funny that people who watch us makin barrels think we have some kind of sixth sense with these machines, so I'll leave it at that..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 18:45:08 (ZULU)

JR..

You do, you just don't realize it!! Thanks for the info I will give them a call in a week or two.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 19:23:44 (ZULU)

Brian,

I hereby dub thee

Brian the (In)Sain - Knight of the Roster table, Holder of the Cajun Clans silver Luge tray of pie fights, and Lord Master of the art of BS......

Secret handshake!

Hi Sign!!!!!!!

heh-heh

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 20:14:33 (ZULU)

Pat (HA!)...

I just spoke to H-S and the price for repainting a black M24 to Sand & Spinache w/spider web is now $105 plus $15 shipping, with one to two weeks turn around... I should'a sent it in Sept, when it was $95 :(( Bummer.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:24:16 (ZULU)

PETE: I'd like to thank the Academy ...

Hey guys, we hit a house for some grass. Shitter was broke in the place and they were using a full 5 gallon bucket to fill up the tank.

A bad guy had just taken a dump and was going to pour some water in the tank when the SWAT truck yanked the burglar bars off the front door. He ran and grabbed the dope and threw it in the commode but overfilled it with grass and it wouldn't flush. Spilled the bucket and water was all over the floor.

Tiny bathroom.

'bout that time a flash bang comes through the window and lands in the middle of the bathroom floor.

Can you say BOOM ? ... I knew you could.

He was soaking wet and covered from head to toe with shit and wet marijuana when we got to him.

"What ya'll had to go and do me that fuh ?" he he.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:33:33 (ZULU)

Brian,

yah, funny ha ha, except for the dude that has to stuff him.. I'd tow him back to the precinct, like the dog on Vacation starring Christy Brinkley and Chevy Chase...

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 21:58:07 (ZULU)

MILITARY DESIGNATED MARKSMAN POIs

Am setting up a 2 day course and while I have my outline done, I would like to hear from those who have something they have run before also.

Pls email me at jeff.waters1@us.army.mil

Thanks

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 6, 2002, at 22:49:09 (ZULU)

I need a little advice from you hogs. I have bought another Leupold MK4 M1 with mildot reticle at a good price. The only thing is that this one has been painted with a camo pattern. I want to strip the paint off and get back to the original Leupold finish. Anyone out there got any suggestions as to what paint stripper to use that won't damage the original finish ? I am going to put this one on one of George Gardner's great creations......thanks

Kimbershooter <ricki@i-c.net>
Disputanta, Va., - Friday, December 6, 2002, at 23:23:56 (ZULU)

I've got a friend that's looking to build a 338RUM up and neither of us can find what the max OAL of a remington or winchester magnum action is. Is the RUM actions larger/wider than a standard LA? I figure just the feed lips are different but am not sure so....

He's wanting a repeater that will facilitate an OAL of 3.55" with 300SMK's.

Any ideas of how long he could go if he got a 300WM for a donor?

Thanks Hawgs,, and congradulations Sir Brian of the (in)Sain, oh Exhuberant Knight of BS,, ;)))

FatBoy...

Charles S.,

I tried to e-mail you off-line, send me better e-mail address...

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 00:32:44 (ZULU)

Kimbershooter...

Use a standard paint remover, mineral spirits, and 1/2" brushes.

Use a small brushe to put remover on, let set, and use a brush with mineral spirits to wash it off... do it in small patches. Put some on, let it set, and wash it off

Keep the gook away from the lenses, and out of the turrets.

A water soluble one is also good, just wash off the patches with hot, soapy water.

When finished, wash the whole thing in soap and water, and let dry in the disdrainer (keep it out of the dishwasher/dryer). Look for missed spots, and do them again if required.

It will be good as new... the black finish will not be damaged.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 00:36:17 (ZULU)

Byron,

You have the dubious honor of being the first to post on Dec 7th mang....

Let us remember today, all those that lost their lives 61 years ago,, by an attack from a group of sneeky bastards.... and let us now be vigilant in whipping the new lot of sneeky bastard off the face of the earth.

FatBoy...

Thanks 'lito,

I won the thing on ebay with a 700.00 bid so the little work involved is worth it. Do you know if Premier or Leupold can (will) convert it to a M3?

Kimbershooter <ricki@i-c.net>
Disputanta, Va., - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:07:11 (ZULU)

Chris,

Well, all I can say is unlike other events that have occured on this date, mine was not planned. It was spure of the moment trying to pass on some insight to Charles' dilemma over OC.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:09:33 (ZULU)

Kimbershooter...

Nope... can't be converted to an M3. But it is a good scope as it it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:23:06 (ZULU)

UNdude/Mike

THE BC for the Speer 190 Gr match is .540 Sec Den is 286

See Loadbooks 1990 Ed for the 308 Win Page 24.

The Sierra 190 Gr Match lists the BC as .610 Sec Den is also 286.

I checked my old reloading books including gthe 1970 issued of Spper and the loadbook in 308 Win is the onl one that listed the 190 lots of info on the 180s

Hope this help.

Bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:28:58 (ZULU)

In-Sain, congrats, buddy! peteR annointed me with the "Sinister" moniker and I like it.

Jim in Joisey, the Swede I was looking for (with the plastic ball at the end of the turned-down bolt handle but without the off-hand section added to the stock belly): http://www.sarcoinc.com/guns12-3.html

Paul, try the forums at macgurus.com. Lotsa Mac-smart folks there (somebody may have the answer). Hope it wasn't the RAID that locked up.

Charles, you only have to get pepper-sprayed once (and it'll blow dead bears for about four hours) -- man is that a handy weapon.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 01:36:45 (ZULU)

Byron,

and unlike the attack in 41,, you're input will likely be very well received.

FatBoy...

Please read the entire message before reading the signature because:

The best part is the signature!!

SEMPER FI: 01

FROGS: 00

(This is a treasure)

A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia):

A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he thought we(Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to provoke a war. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn't be able to count on the support of France.

I told him that it didn't surprise me. Since we had come to France's rescue in World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was due to surface at some point in the near future anyway. That is why France is a third-rate military power with a socialist economy and a bunch of faggots for soldiers.

I additionally told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words, would do whatever it had to do, and France's support was only for show anyway. Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the burden, as evidenced by the fact that the French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the other way around.

He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the Burger King and beat his ass in front of the entire Multi-National Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had more fight in him than the average Frenchman.

He called me a barbarian cowboy and walked away in a huff.

With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Mary Beth Johnson LtCol, USMC

HA!!

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:32:23 (ZULU)

JR: The last of their breeding stock was lost at Verdun. That little popcorn fart country has a veto in the UN Security Council. What a joke.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:39:46 (ZULU)

JR, I think I met Mary Beth once...hmmm...no, this soldier was Army. Anyway, guy I worked for had rental property. We were renovating after a tenet skipped out owing money. Seems the X tenet left his military dress uniform behind. He returned to try and get them when we were there....called my boss a stupid SB, fistacuff erupted with said X tenet getting a good arse woopin by a guy 30 years his senior. X tenet claimed old guy was in trouble now because he was going to return with his commanding officer. Commanding officer returns with him and listens to "old guys" version of what happened. C.O. asks me if the story was accurate. Upon hearing that it was SHE turns to young soldier and tells him that she would have kicked his arse too under the circumstances, then asked my boss to return the "Greens" as they were gov't property. Also assured him that he would get every penny he was due for rent.

Louis <Stoner25MKIV@aol.com>
Floyds Knobs, In, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 02:49:15 (ZULU)

>>>>>> With friends like these, who needs enemies? <<<<<

Since I haven't kept up with the news lately and with the thought of an Iraqi war looming, I was just wondering if the French had surrendered yet?

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:49:19 (ZULU)

In-Sain,

We hit an apartment a couple mornings ago, Heroin dealer, recently released from an IL prison, parole for homicide, bragged to all his cohorts how he would NEVER go back to prison. Seems he & another piece o crap did an armed home invasion on an older couple in town. Local POlice & Gang unit worked up a warrant. We did a no-knock about O-Dark thirty. I was outside doing the sniper/perimeter thing at the only window, with my M4 config. Heard the team breach, then the entry team leader calls, "He 'moused' up." That meant he burrowed right inside the wall where I was standing. Turns out ole Willie Bad Ass crawled under the bed as soon as he heard his door gettin hit. He thought it was OTHER drug dealers coming to kill him. Left his woman & kid out for bait. What a pussy that bad guy. Ya jus never know. Bought the wife a rem 700VSS tonight in 22-250. Told her it was an early Xmas present. Like the Love of my life, she says, "If you want another rifle, just buy it. You don't have to make some story for me." I am one lucky man. No new(renewed) thread intended.

ouy

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of good ole A - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:55:02 (ZULU)

Thanks guys for the info on the BC for the Speer 190's. The .540 is probably a little high as my experience with Speers versus Sierra is the Speers were always slight lower BC (by a smidge) That BC info on the Sierra 190's seems high to me. If memory serves me its more like an average of .533 or so. That .610 is higher than I remember.

Litto, heck you can make a stock any color for a few dollars and change it for a few dollars more. Krylon is magic.

Ken If I am in country I will do all I can to attend. Waiting to hear where I will be.

Undude/Mike

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 03:59:48 (ZULU)

Sinister...

Thanks for the heads up on MacGurus. Last time I was there (about 1 1/2 years ago) they didn't have forums. That where I got my RAID board, and some other VLD parts and stuff.

Now they gots forums, and don't sell stuff... go figure?

Anyway... it wasn't the RAID, it was my main drive that went and locked itself, so I asked over there... looking at the forums, there are some heavy hitters and smart puppies over there... (MacCountry? HA!).

Mike...

Hell, I can slobber paint on it just as bad as any other fool, but I want the Sand & Spinache w/spider web that H-S has... it'll match my 300WM. Kinda like "Bobbsy Twins".

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:37:45 (ZULU)

Undude,

190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (2100 fps +) 0.533

190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (1600-2100 fps) 0.525

190 BTHP-MK SIERRA (1600 fps -)) 0.515

Got an Excel spreadsheet with info on most .308's

Lemme know if you want a copy.

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:52:58 (ZULU)

So is it Sir Brian or Lord Master Brian ?

We got a Sir Wesley already. Either way, I'm honored.

Personally, I think I like Sir. Hard to beat company like Wes.

Hawgette my ass 'lito. HA ! Double Ha ! Thanks Pete !

Hit 'em for 18 hrs today. Santy Claus is comin' ...

I think I want a Bill Bagwell Bowie.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 06:09:20 (ZULU)

Hey you Yahoos!!!!

I'm in sunny Yokusuka Japan teaching the US Navy to fight and repell boarders and shit. Its fricking cold and wet and I live a hotel room smaller than the walkin closet in my hacienda in Alabama.

I'll be posting here infrequently as the navy compooter we have in the orofice doesnt have Java enabled on it so I cant post so am at the base library fighting little brats for access to a compooter.

Its Dec 7th here in Japan. Watched Pearl harbor on Japanese TV last night. Jap sub titles with Engrish then when the Japanese talk in Jap...NO SUBTITLES! Hey WTF! ANyway, nobody is recognising the day over here which is funny being on a Navy base.

We had some IEDs lobbed at Camp Zama, the army base North of here a few weeks ago by a home made Mortar. I guess the badguys are partial to them over here. No one hurt and the projectiles didnt 'splode. We are waiting to see what happens re: Saddam. Things might get exciting round hyar.

ANyway, ya'll stay loose and be thankful you are in the good ole USA. Like they say, you dont really appriciate it till you go out of conus.

Out here.

Pirate 1st Class Gooch

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 07:01:51 (ZULU)

JR- Thanks for confirming that it was Janet, not Janice, at HS Precision. After nearly 4 years and dozens and dozens of phone calls I would hate to have been using the wrong name.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:09:10 (ZULU)

hopefully this won't start a "Virus Country" thread...

Some of the newer viri use email addresses harvested on a computer or from the Internet and use them as *forged* return addresses to send them to some of the other harvested addresses. For the semi-technically inclined among you, you can check the incoming message headers for where it was actually sent from, as opposed to what the stamped return address says.

Kind of like getting a letter with a return address of "Nome, Alaska" with a NYC,NY postmark. Someone is playing fast and loose with the "rules".

Rod Regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:17:03 (ZULU)

"So is it Sir Brian or Lord Master Brian ?"

Its "Crawfish eatin' coonass" and don't get uppity.

(Smiley face here. I don't want him flying his 275 lb girl-friend up here to kick my ass.)

"I think I want a Bill Bagwell Bowie."

You won't be getting a new knife. You're getting a new power. You may want to hold off making a decision until you check out John Smith's current work. It's amazing. Jerry Fisk's and Jim Crowell's too. Crowell's is my favorite of the lot.

The Federal Gubment recently declared Jerry a national treasure or a historical landmark or something. All I know is, he is a Hell of a nice guy who builds a Hell of a good knife.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:45:12 (ZULU)

JR:

I saw that same post sent to me by a Marine friend. What are the two words the French can never say????

............ " WE WON !" .............................HA!!!

Jim Abbott <jaa.jr@verizon.net>
Flower Mound, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 13:56:04 (ZULU)

KEN HUNTER:

You Got Mail Re a Lefty Remmy 700 VS in .308 for sale.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 14:45:05 (ZULU)

CDC,

Is there a problem with Crawfish eating??????????????????

Juuuust kidding! Damn you really do have a "Bowie Blade Fetish" by the names listed thar.

Had some Chipotle pepper laced CHILE for lunch yesterday, (28 WS /30 F at work) and thought maybe some Jambalaya, and a BIG ASS plate of mudbugs might be good tonight...............

be back soon

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 15:20:21 (ZULU)

Lord (In)Sain,

Shades of the Alamo, you gots to go outside of Texas to get a decent Bowie? ;)))))

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 16:24:53 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Take care and SEMPER-FI!

And watch your "SIX" around them swabbies... ;o)

(Just kiddin', Squids.)

Spud

Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:07:23 (ZULU)

Received my new, slightly used Winchester M70 Classic Featherweight in 6.5x55 today. Thanks 'lito, but ya guessed wrong, it's a long action. Anybody want to buy a Badger base for a Win. short action cheap?

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:19:21 (ZULU)

I'll be runnin' up the Colors here pretty quick (Before I set up the tree and Christmas lights- wierd, eh?) in memory of Dec. 7.

Wonder how many flags I'll see flyin' today.

I actually did my retirement ceremony on the Arizona Memorial back in '91. Lt. General Milligan, FMFPAC, did the honors. Solemn, bitter-sweet. Gave a special salute to the Marines and Sailors who reside there.

Used to have "ship-Over" ceremonies out there, too.

Sorry for the "memories"...

I'll be tippin' a coupla "Jacks" tonight for those that have gone before, those that are, and those that will.

Take care studs. (and that means you hard-core ladies, too.)

Spud

Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:24:57 (ZULU)

Byron: I replied to your mail off-line of the DR, so I wouldn't have to eat up space here. Suffice it to say, I have NO misconceptions about OC spray. It's not always effective, but has been touted as some kind of "wonder spray" that will take down the baddest of the bad. Sheesh. Nothing could be further from the truth. And to insist that new recruits get sprayed in the face so they can look at a judge and say "daddy, I know it would hurt, so I had to do it" is not now, and never has been, legally necessary. Now, in dealing with countless numbers of dopers, crackheads, sprayheads, heroin addicts, drunks and just plain old icky mean people, I've never run across one that didn't respond to the swift application of a hard object to the side of the head, just below the ear. Scrambles the switchboard just long enough to get an edge. I HAVE seen a stone cold sober man stand there and say "Yer pissing me off!" when getting sprayed dead in the face with that stuff. So, keep it, and I'll keep my asp and my "woody". Part of the problem is the growing tendency to rely on new gimmicks to replace old-fashioned gumption. If we spray 'em, we won't have to rassle with 'em, mentality. Administrators and accountants are beginning to lise sight of the fact that sometimes, ya just gotta dance with the ugly folk.

Howas rule.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 17:48:28 (ZULU)

re: Point of Impact / Bob the Nailer as a movie

retitled "Shooter" last ref I saw (probably because there is a 1993 movie already called Point of Impact - darn!) They'll probably change the title again because there is a movie produced in 2000 that is titled "Shooter".

Last info I saw had Keanu Reeves cast as the lead. Kind of young to play a character that had served in Vietnam and then was a civilian for a number of years afterwards. That would make the character 30++.

(I don't feel like digging out the book to fine-tune the chronology). Of course, by the time they get around to making the movie, he could be old enough to be believable. Keanu was born in 1964. Liked him in The Matrix.

My choice would have been Tommy Lee Jones, but he's starting to get a bit old for the role. He was born in 1946. (No aspersion on you mature guys - I'm starting to get into that territory myself.)

Rod Regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 18:31:10 (ZULU)

Get home from Edinburgh, pour myself a muckle dram of fine single malt, log on, double tap SC DR, and I see:

Lord Brian? Lord Master Brian????

sheesh, give a Texan an inch....more like 'court jester'(kinda rhymes), ya clown shoe... haaa...

Gooch,

good luck over there...

Pat,

no problemo dude, I'll try to swing thru Pierre if I decide to head out to Rapid for a day or two..

later aye, lassies on the menu tonite....

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 19:00:08 (ZULU)

Ok M3LR question, I use the 175SMK over 44 gr of Varget with Lapua brass and Fed GM210M primers chronographed at an avg of 2600fps. Using the .30-06 cam I KNOW the fps is a bit slow. 100 yd groups are sub-minute even the 200 yd groups hold sub-minute when I do my part. Now the question, at 300 yds dialing the cam to "3" I shoot 3" high of POA. Taking it down 1 click lowers the POI 3" below POA! Going 1/2 click doesn't help. Suggestions? Am I going to have to do somemore load testing to get the fps up to 2685 or is it 2680?

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 19:58:56 (ZULU)

MARK: I like Bagwells knives. He's in Tejas.

JR: Watch them lassies assies. I think Scottish chicks would dig me.

ALL: One of Rich Johnsons Snipers got shot last night. He's okay. BG shot him in the arm with a .44 mag. BG shot 3-4 times. Damn dope warrant.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:19:13 (ZULU)

"Mucle dram?"

What the Hell?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:29:40 (ZULU)

Yeah, Dan I was just gonna let it go.

I just figured he was ALREADY crying assed drunk and said he was missing Uncle Sam ???? Mucle dram ?

Speak bloody English laddy.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:42:24 (ZULU)

>>>>Get home from Edinburgh, pour myself a muckle dram of fine single malt, log on, double tap SC DR, and I see:

Lord Brian? Lord Master Brian????

sheesh, give a Texan an inch....more like 'court jester'(kinda rhymes), ya clown shoe... haaa...<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Try to show a coon ass some respect and look where it gets me ;)))))

BTW JR, for a single malt does Glenlivet get the nod in old Scotland? Muckle dram?

>>>>>MARK: I like Bagwells knives. He's in Tejas.<<<<<<<

Hmmm. My mistake. Got a web site? **edit note. I sure like this edit thingy.** That's not the same Bill Bagwell that used to sell 1874 Sharps Rifles is it? Surely not.**

Don,

HOW much for the Winchester Badger base? Contact offline if you like. I'm really looking for a level base for a Winnie 70 HBV though. Now if I could just find a used set of standard 30mm Badger Rings.

December 7, 1941. Less we forget.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 20:54:59 (ZULU)

Old Vet:

Still looking for the best caliber for my mauser action (vz24)

action is really nice. in the white,smooth rails,matching bolt,it

is as slick a baby's behind. is it to be 6.5x55,7.08, 7.06, 308

or 280. need help here, so speak out ,i'm all ears. i will be

reloading my own.

looked at two stocks,Wenig's lam. tac. & Richard's Microfit lam.

tac.

old vet,out

it's bad out there, you guys all come home safe.

JOHN DE RENO <jsdereno@horizonview.net>
South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 21:42:33 (ZULU)

What's the rifle for?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 22:26:22 (ZULU)

cdc;

have family (sisters,brother) out in eastern Oregon

near a John Day River and Umatilla Nat. Forst. ranch 15k.ac.

total ac. 19k. we shoot from 3800ft.-4600ft alt. most of ranch

is 3600ft. up. goats ,elk, chuckers,steers,wild horses. big cats

coytoes. we have set sites and target stands from 100yds to 1200yds

one problem we shoot a little down hill, not more then 12deg.on

a level. been shooting M1 Garand, M1A1,Savage110.06,out to 600yds

want to crank it up and get out to 800yds+.

old vet

cut the BG no slack, and come home safe

JOHN DE RENO <jsdereno@horizonview.net>
South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 02:17:27 (ZULU)

Dennis (SPUD), where did you get your bumper sticker "got mildot?"

Darren...

Darren <usmc_dd214_1990@yahoo.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:31:00 (ZULU)

"...goats,elk, chuckers, steers, wild horses, big cats, coytoes..."

.280 is the only one on your list that is good for elk. Use the 175 Nosler partitions. .30-06 is better yet. I've never shot a horse but I've been sorely tempted.

"...want to crank it up and get out to 800yds+..."

You can hit at that range, but you can't get clean kills.

If you shoot more of the bigger stuff, the .30-06 is better. If you shoot more of the smaller stuff, I'd go the .280.

I prefer shooting the .280.

That sounds like a very nice place.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:54:57 (ZULU)

test

Charlie Shoesmith <chog67@aol.com>
Lee's Summit, MO, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 05:14:43 (ZULU)

Good Morning all, hah,

A little English-English translation needed, eh?

ok, a muckle means a lot of, much, great, large. We call Langholm here 'Muckletoon' or 'big city'. Not to be confused with muck, or 'mucky', which basically means crap. A dram is a measure of whiskey, I'm not sure exactly how much is in a dram, but it's loosely used here for a 'shot'. So, a 'muckle dram' can mean a large measure of whiskey. Sometimes confused with a 'muckle beast', which is a whole new ballgame. Pete from Yorkshire may be able to clear this up, sometimes it's tough gettin thru these Borders dialects and getting clear definitions, words and phrases mean different things in your different villages.. You'd think the Highland dialect would be the toughest to understand, nope, unless they speak Gaelic, their English is good. Hawick, here in the Borders about 25 miles from me, has to be use of the most bastardised excuses for english that I have heard to date, beats Glaswegian by a mile.. I think they just make shit up to confuse me.. I do have to say that was the oddest feeling when I got here, they(Scots) understand everything you say(cuz it's perfect English), and you know that what they speak is supposed to be some form of english, but nope, nothin registers, not even in the 'I get the drift' sense. So youse drink a muckle a whiskey, and it all becomes more clear by the end of the night...

I could type in Geordie English.... Aa's nee gannin theor...

Glenlivet is top notch single malt. My personal favorite is Glenmorangie (Glen of Tranquility), all good stuff, can't go wrong with single malt..

Nivvor ower de it

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 06:53:20 (ZULU)

Darren,

Bruce Robinson is selling the mildot front licence plates and the sticker together I think.

Speaking of Bruce,, where ya been mang? PeteR starts visiting again and you take a break,,, I see how it is.... ;))

Passed on a 40X, single shot with a FAT barrel chambered out in 6x284, wood 40X stock with 4" rail etc, etc,,, with dies and all yesterday for $800. It had a neat trigger,, factory adjustable BR trigger, adjustable kinda like a Jewell,, through the shoe. I learn something new each day at the gunshow,, but most of the time it's others miss-informed, ignorant information about guns that stands out. (NOT the 40X shooter)For instance,, yesterday I learned a Jennings .380 is a top quality pistol,, and is utterly reliable. How was I to know ;))

JR,

You never did say what "at the chinky" means.....

FatBoy...

Glenmorangie, mmmmmmmmm (insert drooling & slurping sounds)!

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 14:58:16 (ZULU)

Gents,

Chris, suspect "at the chinky" is something you don't want to know

Gunshows...great source of misinformation. I don't even attend most of them any more. Dealers want to much, etc.

Second showing on the house today or tomorrow. Hope it sells and we can move closer to work. I'm spending 4+ hours a day on prep time and road time. To damn much. Besides, all that gas money could go to important stuff...like bullets, brass, powder, etc.

Scotch...lots of good ones JR. Sounds like you're "settling in" just fine over there. Personally, I used to be a Ripple and Seven-Up man...;-)

All for now...duty calls.

Semper Fi.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:29:07 (ZULU)

CHRIS: Was the Jennings a Target Model ?

Q: What do you call a blonde standing on her head ?

A: A brunette with bad breath.

Q: What is an open can of tuna at a lesbian party ?

A: Potpourri

Going shopping with the missus. Ya'll are smart enough to figure the MO out.

Later dudes

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:40:27 (ZULU)

HOGs, all this talk of knives makes me give up my great source for what feels to me like the best damm fighting knife I have ever used. Its Siminoch Knives http://www.simonichknives.com/home.htm.

I have one of the production knives and man its beyond belief. Old Dog sent one to me as a gift (What a nice guy) because he said I did not know what a good knife was until I tried one of these. It handles like a small knife, but is big. Its called the "Raven Combat" from the MIdtech line. Well I took the bad boy out and started chopping away at all kindfs of stuff. Wanted to see what it would do. I have had other knives feel good and chip, dull you name it so I was skeptical. I started chopping firewood and plywood with it. First swipe at some 3/4 AC exterior plywood chopped a corner about 5" off the plywood. So I beat the hell out of this thing choppping anything I could without getting killed by the Lady Lorraine for chopping on.

I could not dull this knife and it chopped like an axe. After I was in a sweat the knife still cutt paper like a razor.

If you are looking for a BOwie size fighting knife look here!

Darren, I get more questions around town about my "Got Mildots" sticker than anything else.

Undude

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 16:52:44 (ZULU)

Wes - agree with you 100% on the gunshow issue. Items are over priced, admissions here are $8.00 and to walk around and sell something they want a table fee. It used to be the place to go to get hard to find items or Military surplus stuff. Now with the net these things are easily obtainable without the drive and the crowds. Heck, the last two I have been to, we had more fun spoting the undercover ATF agents. I quit going after an ATF set up dealer tried to sell me M-16 fire control parts when I asked about the MFG of the match triggers he had on the table at a really low price. I was told buy the seller that the full-auto parts he had were legal to own and no class III paperwork was required. What do they think, people are that stupid? Especially here in Michigan where there, by state law, is no class III period. It's one thing to enforce the laws but to entrap people and entice them into breaking laws is abuse of authority and criminal. Especially when those who would fall for it are to stupid to know what they were being asked to buy is illegal.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:16:18 (ZULU)

CDC...Never shot a horse?

I have had the distasteful job of putting down 3, actually 2 horses and a pony..One with 45ACP hardball, the other 2 with 245 gr. Kieth SWCs out of a 44 mag...The results are sudden and dramatic when the shot is placed behind the ear..You have to be careful of how close to the beast you are standing as they drop instantaneously.

Buck season ended yesterday..Brock shot another, 5 point, at 4:30. I saw nothing with horns so, the score this year was Brock 3 and the old man 1..Have a week of doe hunting left; time to gather more burger.

For those who might be interested, S&W has some 5" bbls. for older Model 29 revolvers..Call Vito at the Performance Center. They only had 10 or so when I had my old 8 3/8s rebarrelled last month.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:19:05 (ZULU)

CDC...Never shot a horse?

For those who might be interested, S&W has some 5" bbls. for older Model 29 revolvers..Call Vito at the Performance Center. They only had 10 or so when I had my old 8 3/8s rebarrelled last month.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:19:19 (ZULU)

Titan...I assume you've read Unintended Consequences, but if not, it is a must read..There was supposed to be a sequal to that book. Anyone have any clue about that???????

outa here again; sorry for the double post.

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:25:23 (ZULU)

Markwell - Yeah, I read it back in 2001 when I was laid up with my knee. It is a good read, infact I read each chapter twice just to digest it all. The incident I mentioned above happened back in 1996, right after the crime bill was enacted. ATF was using stings at gunshows and under cover agents mingling in the crowd just like in the book. HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM????????????????

I wonder what a sequal would be like, as the book had good closure at it's conclusion. I would buy it though. Look at what the Author has gone through since he wrote the book. The ATF even tried to set him up using his exwife, or so the story goes.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 17:46:47 (ZULU)

Hi all,

Just got my rifle back from George at GA Precision. I'm sure you all are familiar with the kind of work he does. If not, it is excellent.

I told him I wanted it as close to USMC spec as he could get it, with the exception of the Wichita swivels. He even had an old Unertl mount for it. So, I guess it's as close to a real M40-A1 as you can get.

Paul C., you still around?

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:12:56 (ZULU)

Gunsmith needed , maybe . Since i cannot find a picatinney or tapered base by any manufacturer for my steyr ssg p11 , here's the thought . What about haveing my 30 mil steyr rings machined or lapped to a 20 moa taper ? Any thoughts ?

art <atraison@shaw.ca>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:27:15 (ZULU)

Glenmorangie, Glenlivet, Glenfiddich, and Pigs Nose. JR, they even export that last one out of the area? Been in a few pubs there LOL. "give a Texan an inch". Yeah, that's what Santa Anna said. Next thing you know, the Mexicans lost the whole tamale. Then they had to go and ruin a good thing. But what's this bagging on the frogs? Don't you know they have the best fighter in the world, that Mirage? Insert derisive laugher here. Other than making decent food from basically rubbish, and some rather good artists quite some while ago, what do they contribute to the world? Oh yes, the best machinists and mechanics in the world. More derisive laugher.

Fatboy, Jennings is a good combat pistol. That's why they beat the the rest (S&W, Sig, Beretta, Colt, Kimber, etc) out for the pimps union official throw down contract in the big easy. You notice that their quality, reliability, and accuracy caused the demise of Raven, right?

Brian, how about "Son of Lafette". That not only sounds good, but isn't rude as well. Suppose how rude it is depends on where you're from on second thought. Anyone eats mudbugs and can outlive those birds with fangs and watermoccasins is OK in my book.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 18:58:18 (ZULU)

Hogs,

There is going to be a (hopefully) quick interruption in services on the Roster.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 19:21:18 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Hope you like the little new feature...

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 20:33:52 (ZULU)

Goddamnit. got rammed by another kamikhazi box head in one of them new VW beetles today, on my way back from baiting the pigs. My damn van stalled at a cross roads, I put the hazzard warning lights on,got my finger stuck in the key fob and was just restarting the engine and this twit didn't see me, he was blinded by the sun. He insisted that because i had come from the road to his left, he had right of way.. yes if we had got there at the same time, but i got there at least a minute before hand. Now i'm sure that you are supposed to stop for obstructions in the road which have hazzard lights on.. no doubt he and his wife will lie and give me the blame. F@#$%^. I still aint got paid out for the last one. why oh why am i always at the wrong place/wrong time. Buggeritall I need a tank.

GW, you guys still using the Charley G? i used to like playing with the practice 6.5 (adapter sub-caliber) I seem to remember shooting a fox with one once. The Brits have a spotting round in the LAW90, i can't remenber if its 8mm or 6.5, but it was developed to be the same trajectory as the 94mm rocket, you pop away at your target with the spotter and when you hit it, swich to main, and boom..

JR, you seemed to have settled in nicely , and you seem to have fine taste in malt whiskey. The Scots dialect's are great aren't they. Glasgow sounds common as hell, but most of the rest of them are very pleasing to the ear. I spent 2 1/2 years with a Jock Infantry Bn, I gained a Scotts accent during that time. I can't stand the damn Geordie accent though, that comes from spending 2 years with a Geordie Arty Regiment, thats where i figured out why the Brits call the Arty blokes "Planks". I owe you some cash. Cheque ok?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:00:58 (ZULU)

Hogs, good news/bad news on "Point of Impact" movie: The bad news is that the project is on indefinite hold. Several people are interested, but it hasn't come together yet. The good news is Keanu Reeves is out and Tommy Lee Jones is in. Latest details here:

http://www.upcomingmovies.com/shooter.html

Undude: How does Simonich compare to Mad Dog knives? I have a Mako you can beat on if you want to give it a try. They are tool steel, differentially tempered with a chrome plating. Very tough, Louie Awerbuck turned me on to them. I'm not crazy about the handle design, though, doesn't fit my hand very well.

What kind of response do you get to your "Got Mildots?" sticker? All I get is "What's that mean?" I tell them it's a shibboleth. Then they have to ask me what that means.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:01:39 (ZULU)

Advice needed....Finally got to shoot me new piece yesterday. It requires 15" of elevation on the scope for a 100yd zero.

Does anyone know of any tricks to tell if this due to the rifle or bases or rings?

Rifle=223 PSS

Bases=Leupold STD 2-piece

Rings=Leupold STD

Scope=el cheapo 3-9x40

If this is due to bad barrel/receiver alignment, would 'blueprinting' fix it?

Lito - thanks for the earlier advice, but I would prefer to stay away from anything QD, as I've found that it tends to quickly detach at the most inappropiate moment.

Medic Jim - you hate cats? My wife has 23 of the little darlings. Breakfast time is an event in my house.

cheers guys,

Bisley Tiger

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:34:53 (ZULU)

TITAN:

been a member of O.G.C.A. here in Ohio over twenty years.

been going to shows for fourty yrs. it is as bad as I have ever

seen it .ever after the 68 laws went into effect. back then, we

would set them up by going around the show. looking for M-1Car.

and thompson smg parts.they would actual try an help us with

the right parts. we acted as dumm as nose honey. right up putting our money down. then off we would go. they would dammed near run us

down, as we made our get-a-way. don't try this today , would have us

spread eagle just for messing with them.

onered(old vet)

JOHN DE RENO <jsdereno@horizonview.net>
South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:47:53 (ZULU)

Steve, where are you in the UK? maybe i know some one in the area who can check the rifle out for you( I like that - banned-it country, funny, but sad, pretty much sums it up don't it). Get rid of those mounts and that scope. spend a little on some decent mounts and a decent scope, and ask me before you buy, ( Jon B will testify to this) I may be able to save you some money.

Right, time for some shut eye, back at work in 7 hours. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 21:51:38 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln - you got mail.

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Banned-it Country, England, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:07:34 (ZULU)

Grasshopper, are you a traveling man?

Tony B <tburkes@sbcglobal.net>
Alvin, Tx, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:14:35 (ZULU)

Ref: G.A. Precison

About a month ago I shipped George a M700 LA to build a 6.5X.284 rifle with. I expected to have the winter to leasurely gather together what brass, dies, bullets and what not together. I just got an e-mail from George saying it'll be done next week. HOLY COW!!!! That's what I call service!!! But now I'm way behind the power curve on the other stuff. Oh well the first focal plane Gen II versions of the 6.5-20X Loopies won't be ready from Premier until January any way. I get two Christmas mornings this year.....yeeeehaaaa!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:25:21 (ZULU)

cdc:

Fatboy felt the .280 was the way to go too.

guess i'll start looking for a tube. you know

being on a fixed income(the Eagle don't crap that much here)

i'm looking for a really good bbl. with out ,without having to

sell this new leg. give me the best names you know.i'll ck.

the list i got on line. i'll just have to work on the money

thing. Thanks, you guys a big help. learning more now about

long range work then the whole time in service.

JOHN DE RENO <jsdereno@horizonview.net>
South Salem, Ohio, U.S. OF A. - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:53:18 (ZULU)

I would greatly appreciate some offline help/info from a few of you. I have decided to seriouly consider a search for a new job in a different state, but would like to know about the gun laws to help me refine my search. If you live in WV, TN, KY, VA, NC, or PA would you please send me an email off line (don't want to tie up the DR ) & fill me in on class 3, CCW, buying a long gun/pistol, cities with bans, what's legal/illegal to posses, ect. Thank you in advance for your time & help.

-danny

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
akron, ohio, usa - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 22:53:38 (ZULU)

Kevin -- I wouldn't worry about being behind the power curve on getting that new stick up and running - the ASC#2 Rules Subcommittee on Rifle Caliber recently ruled that nothing smaller than 30 cal would be allowed.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
Just puttin you on kevin, - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 23:10:56 (ZULU)

Old Vet,

KenM decided 280AI was the way to go, not I, but I'd take his advice without reservation. Sounds like a great all around caliber.

I'm sticking with the 6.5x284 for now. It's a proven winner and has recoil like a 223rem. For us recoil sensitive pussies,,, the 6.5 is the trick.

No luck at the gunshow again today. Passed on a C serial'd 700LA ADL for $300. Couldn't bring myself to pay more than $280. I'm really looking for a SA anyway, so screw it....

KevinM (Andy's Dad),

;)) man,, I can't wait for the report after your first range session. You think you'll be able to wait for the Gen II 20X Lupita?? That M3LR will swap right over ((; My bet,,, you'll be building another one, for your spotter, by summer.

Marius,

You are one bad MoFo,,, I like the new feature. I may start double tapping just because ;))

FatBoy...

I just got done shooting a Tupperware Match (Gloch). I will let you all know how bad I did in a month or two when the results come back. Haha. You know shooting it really wasn't all that bad. I may play with it some more next year and shoot it for real in next years match. Shooting it once a year don't really count as practice does it? I may, Dramatic puase/clear throat, put the 1911 a way for a spell and shot this thing for part of next year season.

OC spray? Call me old fashion. So I go by the old adage, You gottta dance with who brung ya. So I don't carry it either. Besides theres all way a cactus around to throw someone on.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 23:52:10 (ZULU)

Don K...

I didn't guess... Winchester's site has the 6.5x55 as a short action.

If it was an old one from years ago, you should have said so. Some 10+ish years ago they very made limited runs of several calibers like 6.5x55 and .257 Roberts on long actions.

Bisley Tiger...

I don't know what you are talking about... I NEVER recommended any quick release system to you??? The only quick release systwem I ever recomended is the A.R.M.S. which is VERY expensive, and way over your head.

And, NO, Blue printing won't fix anything. You have the worst ring/base set up in the business. Get something better.

I would sugest you go back and re-read my advice. It will solve your problems, be rock solid, and cost about $60, instead of $250 to $350.

Of course... if you insist on having someone "Blueprint" your action (there is no such thing), I'm sure that there are many that will take your money.

Is there a full moon out this week???

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 00:30:05 (ZULU)

Tony B.: Not by inclination, but when necessity dictates. Why?

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 00:54:58 (ZULU)

Thank you, Marius!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 05:02:05 (ZULU)

Pete, they still use the charlie gutsache and they got inserts or some sorta prac rounds for 66 to I think.

Ive had some better than expected happenins on the financial front recently so whilst in the big smoke today I lashed out & bought a 8lb tin of varget,flip up scope covers 140 6.5 smk & a bit of other crap then copped an earful from wifey after her waitin in the car for an hour while Im droolin thru the gun shop.If the good things continue there may be a leica lrf 1200 in this part of the world soon.AH the joys of married life.

On the downside the feral gubmint has blackmailed the states into banning pistols with 4 inch or shorter barrels,they seem to think they are easier to conceal than a 5 or 6 inch version.These "people" really suck.When I get to be president I think I'll declare an open season on past politicians :)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 10:32:20 (ZULU)

Ref: Safety Tip

If you plan to spend $1600 on a new stick, be sure to tell the wife well in advance. It's not advisable to simply inform her a couple weeks before Christmas your going to need to write a monster check. Failing this,use ice in the first 24 hours, the swelling should go down in a couple of days.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 12:49:48 (ZULU)

Kevin- This situation is clearly not your fault. George should shoulder all of the blame for the unfortunate timing of this financial down turn. After all you had no

reason to expect the project would be completed so quickly. I clearly remember you indicating (in writing) that you were not expecting the rifle until much later in the winter. The only question that comes to mind is whether reaction is truly related to the timing of the expenditure ? Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery.

Rod

PS- When did you say Andy's rifle would be ready?

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:34:59 (ZULU)

Hi all,

Does anyone know where I can find a SIMRAD adaptor for a M40-A1 Unertl mount? I don't know if it's a separate ring or the top half of the existing ring. Thanks.

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:52:45 (ZULU)

Kevin -

Tylenol for the pain, Advil for the swelling :).

Get well soon.

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 13:57:04 (ZULU)

Steve...

Check with Marty Badger. I think he has them.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 14:50:45 (ZULU)

Lito,

Thanks. I looked on the Badger site, but couldn't find them. If I remember correctly, they used to be on there. Unless Badger doesn't list all of their stuff on the web site, I don't know if they have them anymore. Still looking....

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 15:07:28 (ZULU)

Steve...

Call Marty and ask. If he doesn't have them, I'll bet he can tell you where to get them.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 15:34:45 (ZULU)

Marius,

Thanks! Sometimes editing just isn't appropriate when the post isn't either. :))

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 16:11:35 (ZULU)

I guess it was my turn in the kicking box today... over 85 virus laden emails in one day... wow, am I lucky!

Ken, any chance we could somehow hide the email addy when a post is made... I only use this addy for the roster and it's clear someone has declared war.

Sinister - if I read you right, you made a purchase on the Swede? If you need me to stop by and take a look (to confirm condition) before they ship it, just let me know.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 17:02:21 (ZULU)

Lito,

I emailed Marty. Thanks again.

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 17:54:57 (ZULU)

GW, yeah we had them sub cal things for the 66 too, it was the Armoureres job to load the things, if i remember right we had to unscrew a plate at the back end and insert the umbilical primer thingy, 21mm rocket they fired?, hell i ain't played with one of them in years, you lot got Milan? the froggy anti tank thing? we used to have fun with them, hell i spent some tax payers money shooting them of, the equipment course to learn to repair em was a superb piss up too,we had a bloody bomb alert in one of the pubs near the barracks and the MP's came and evacuated the pub, i ended up getting friendly with the female MP captain... ( frowned upon that sort of thing you know, officers x non com's, but lust knoweth no boundaries or rank)

Lito. I think bisley t is refring to,, was it the burris Z rings? what ever you told him to get, he's probably referencing to a picture on the net or in a catalogue that is incorrect, either way he needs to bin them rings he's got and then buy a S&B..scope and some decent rings. I told him i'd take a nikon over a leupold, you agree?

Here's a funny one for you, now just call me Mr Bean or plain unlucky if you like, but after having my car crashed yesterday, i do a 12 hour shift, go home, get changed into bed attire and want to watch Band of Brothers (the final 2 episodes) on the TV, turn the box on, no bloody satellite signal, bugger, its cold out, the damn dish is on a pole at the bottom of the garden, behing a load of bushes, I display the signal strength and lock indicator on the tv and go and push the dish and pole around a bit, hopeing to get it back in the right place, back in the apartment i go, still no bloody lock, so there i am back and forth, no joy, I can't see the damn TV from out side so its all guess work, after about a half hour, still no damn signal, I get a bright idea, put the shutters up and stack the TV on top of a tool box and an ammo box on top the sideboard, with it facing out the window so i can see when i get lock. back out to the dish, bugger i still cant see the tv through the bushes, so i break of branches to create a lane through em, bugger, can't make out whats on the tv, ah,another bright idea get the bino's, ah, at last there i am, dish and pole in 1 hand bino's in the other, watching the tv so i see when i hold the damn dish in the right direction, bollocks where's the TV gone? back into the apartment, bugger its toppled of the ammo can, luckily onto the bed, phfew nuthin broken, back on the stack goes the tv, and i dash back out side, back in the bushes i go, around the corner come's a cop, some one has been neighbourhood watching and has seen me dashing back and forth and has called the cops,now bear in mind its bloody freezin, i'm in my slippers and half naked. I'm spying into the bed room with my bino's, try explaining that.. any way, i did manage to explain it, and even got the cop to twist the dish and pole about, with me in the warm apartment keeping an eye on the signal strength and lock indicator, finaly got a picture with 2 minutes to go,4 hours sleep and back to work, some days things just don't go my way.. right time to see a man about a pig.

New moon Wed Dec 4 08:36:12 2002

First quarter Wed Dec 11 16:49:43 2002

Full moon Thu Dec 19 20:12:19 2002

Last quarter Fri Dec 27 01:32:25 2002

New moon Thu Jan 2 21:25:08 2003

Lito with a S&B you don't need a moon.. ha ha, what you doing, coyote shooting? we got nearly a quarter moon tonight, that'll do for me to see the piggies, going to have the first night in my new tree stand, been -5 c here during the day, better put my longjons on. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 18:07:07 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just got back from a Military Ball in southern WI. Three days of a foggy stupor and tons of awards for my team. It was a good time for a change. Amazing what 3 kegs can do for a formal event!

Bisley,

'Lito is right...though surly. I have the same problem you have with those rings and bases. You can shim the rear or ditch the whole thing and do it right. I opted for ditching that crap. Loopy makes good scopes, OK QR set-ups, and decent MK4 set-ups--but the standard stuff is problematic at every turn. I solved the elevation problem on my son's Mod 7 with the weaver rail (one piece) base and a set of Burris Zee rings. If deer season wasn't in full swing, the loopies wouldn't have seen a shot fired. Garbage! Now, the reason Lito was short in his response is that he addressed this last week--and you seemed to have ignored his advice. And now you've been whacked by the rolled newspaper.

Lito,

Thanks for the tip on the Zee's--they are alot like the opti-locs from Sako...good stuff. Wouldn't have known to try them without your plug.

Still waiting for the official word...looks like Doha, Qatar. Kinda further in the rear than I wanted. I'll figure out how to move up north or west when the time comes...at least I'm going in the right direction. This desk here is as "rear area" as it gets!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 18:14:36 (ZULU)

Gents,

The SAKO .338 is sold. Great deal to a knowledgable gent. Sako Opti-lock rings and mounts, and all the goodies. At least we had one lucky winner.

Chris, so NOW I'm a pussie because I shoot a 6.5 X .284. Actually, I must be an amazon, cuz I shot the .338 Lapua...;-)

All for now gents.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:03:35 (ZULU)

I have a Sako Forester in .308. It seems like a very small action to me. Is this sturdy enough to build a heavy barrelled rifle on?

P. M. Hayden <pmhayden@yahoo.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:13:40 (ZULU)

Call me idiot, but what the hell is blueprinting? Do I call it by some other name maybe? The only places I have heard it used is on websites, and I've never heard an explanation as to what blueprinting is or entails..

Compass Lake Engineering, anyone hear of that place?

happy day, the 'r's' are in production...yee haw!!

Pete, you unlucky bastad.. Looks to me like you had one of those ideas that sounded good at the time but....

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 19:36:00 (ZULU)

Blueprinting,

ok, yeah I've heard of it, now that I've seen this... here's the explanation

http://www.guntailor.com/html/actionblue.html

what this does for accuracy, I'm not sure... Perhaps crispens (wha?) the receiver up. I'd have to have one ratty action to do this kinda work on it though, he's really takin the piss out of truing a receiver.. oh well. everyone's gotta make a living.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:05:16 (ZULU)

JR...

You WOULD be the one to ask?? HA!... Double HA!!

----

*Blueprinting (blu-printing): verb A slang term from the auto racing culture - meaning to make or rebuild to the original dimentions - to the blueprints. The act of returning any piece of machanical equipment to the dimentions originally specified in the design blueprints.

---

OK... there are 'smiths that will "true" your action... meaning they will lap the lugs so both have full or almost full contact... but if this not done carefully (meaning polishing AFTER lapping) the lugs can gall... a very badd thing! Sometimes lapping is needed, most times not. They "may" put the action in a lathe and cut a new face on it... but this is not needed, since that is how the action is faced at the factory in the first place... but they will gladly charge for it. Some will chase, or "re-thread" the barrel threads, but that is also a questionable effort.

Some 'smiths will "true" the action as part of the barrel instalation.

None of these efforts return the action to the original dimentions... in fact thay take the action further away from the orginal dimentions.

Remember that all these efforts remove metal... you cannot fix the alignment of a bolt by removing metal... you must build up the surface by Tig welding, then take it down... which is something that NONE of these guys do. It would make no sense, since the Remington action only costs about $75 to make.

But beware of 'smiths that use the phrase "Blueprinting"! They are blowing smoke in your ear!

If you need an action that is perfect, then buy a perfect action to start with... there are many custom (aka Handmade) actions on the market... all it takes in money!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:07:24 (ZULU)

Lito,

I cannot find your previous post (on roster or archives). My understanding was that you recommended Burris rings and Leupold QRW bases.

If I am incorrect, please accept my apologies.

SteveA

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Standing in the corner, with a pointy hat on, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 20:42:59 (ZULU)

Aye Lito,

Blueprinting is a misnomer... Maybe he's blueprinting to his prints, ha.. When we squared the action face, and lapped the bolt lugs, ground the recoil lug, and so on, we called it 'accurizing'. but this fella likes to take it to the next level (read unnecessary), he's got indicators, 4 jaw chucks, reamers, etc.. He's actually re-boring the receiver!! Like I said, I'd have to have one ratty assed action to go thru all that..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:10:23 (ZULU)

BT...

That's what I recomended... but Leupold QRW bases are "standard weaver cross slot" bases... just very well made and very low.

The Burris "Signaturee 'ZEE' rings" are machined steel, with adjustable taper, and a cross bolt to hold the rings on the bases... they cannot come loose!! In fact, they take longer to remove than the BAdgers and MK4 rings. Nothing about this combo is quick release.

JR...

To take an off the rack action, and spend a ton on money to re-machine it to non-spec dimentions is damn silly. For the cost of a Rem or Win action, then add the labor to create some action that has nothing that is standard is expensive, and dumb.

For those anal types that can't live without perfection, there are many great custom made actions around... for less than a "accurized" Rem will cost... plus then you have something with real re-sale value.

When you pour a fortune into a Rem action, what do you have when you're done... a used $50 action :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:17:56 (ZULU)

'lito- How do you really feel about Reminton actions ? What's really WRONG with them? Given your frequent outbursts about whats wrong at Remington it seems odd that you would have ANY of there stuff in your safe. How is that Fireball doing? Don't hold back , just vent , let it all come to the surface. It will be good for you.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 21:56:38 (ZULU)

Lito....

from the Leupold catalogue,

Leupold QRW bases are "quick release weaver cross slot"

Leupold PRW bases are "standard weaver cross slot"

Are PRW the bases you are referring too????

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Standing in the corner, with a pointy hat on, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:33:46 (ZULU)

Steve A.,

The Burris Zee rings have an "offset insert"--you can use these by rotating them inside the rings to change windage or elevation--depending on where you put the +/- sides in relation to the baseline (vertical axis is neutral--they are eccentric to the rings). A very handy feature for what ails your set-up currently.

Rod,

Lito has chimed in on remmy's poor QC alot around here, but he's been on them for EVERYTHING--not just their actions. FWIW, I'd be glad to pick up whereever Lito leaves off on criticizing Big Green's failures of quality control. I was dumb enough to buy one. But hey, they make great project guns. Too bad the price doesn't reflect this reality.

Hey, how are those Howa actions holding up? Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:35:40 (ZULU)

Jim, haven't bought the Swede yet, but if you find one like the one on the link could you let me know? I think Sarco's got a nice rifle there, if just a little pricey.

Forwarded for your enjoyment:

A letter from a farmer, now at Camp Pendleton:

Dear Ma and Pa,

Am well. Hope you are. Tell Walt and Elmer the Marine Corps beats working for old man Minch by a mile. Tell them to join up quick before maybe all of the places are filled. I was restless at first because you got to stay in bed till nearly 6 a.m., but am getting so I like to sleep late. Tell Walt and Elmer all you do before breakfast is smooth your cot and shine some things. No hogs to slop, feed to pitch, mash to mix, wood to split, fire to lay. Practically nothing.

Men got to shave but it is not so bad, they get warm water. Breakfast is strong on trimmings like fruit juice, cereal, eggs, bacon, etc., but kind of weak on chops, potatoes, ham, steak, fried eggplant, pie and other regular food. But tell Walt and Elmer you can always sit between two city boys that live on coffee. Their food plus yours holds you till noon, when you get fed again. It's no wonder these city boys can't walk much. We go on "route" marches, which the Platoon Sergeant says are long walks to harden us. If he thinks so, it is not my place to tell him different. A "route march" is about as far as to our mailbox at home. Then the city boys gets some sore feet and we all ride back in trucks. The country is nice, but awful flat.

The Sergeant is like a schoolteacher. He nags some. The Captain is like the school board. Majors and Colonels just ride around and frown. They don't bother you none. This next will kill Walt and Elmer with laughing. I keep getting medals for shooting. I don't know why. The bulls-eye is near as big as a chipmunk and don't move. And it ain't shooting at you, like the Higgett boys at home. All you got to do is lie there all comfortable and hit it. You don't even load your own cartridges. They come in boxes.

Be sure to tell Walt and Elmer to hurry and join before other fellers get into this setup and come stampeding in.

Your loving daughter, Gail

P.S. Speaking of shooting, enclosed is $200 towards a new barn roof and ma's teeth. The city boys shoot craps, but not very good.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:36:25 (ZULU)

Why do you guys torture yourselves by getting "joint" checking accounts? To take this further, why do you guys even tell your wifies what you are buying? You need to go to Boltster's class on sneakiness.

Rule one, get a safe, keep the combo to yourself.

Rule two, rotate the guns around in the safe to make it look different just incase a female peaks inside. Females remember how things are supposed to look, not how many things were in there to begin with.

Rule number three, keep a gun or two at your buds house and make sure that wifie sees how empty the safe is. "Yep hon, had to sell a few to have enough allowance to get the one I really want."

More tips and tactics later, Bolt out!

PS: Politicians and Car Dealerships are just alike, nuff said!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 22:38:50 (ZULU)

Lord, I pray thee, what sin have I commited that you have brought this plague of Leupold mount and base poopie upon my insignificant life?

I promise that I won't peep into the girls showers anymore... well maybe for a week... OK, til tomorrow, that's the best I can do!

Bisley kitten

Go here:

http://www.leupold.com/products/mounts.htm

I don't mean to get pissy but JEEZ Mang! You will notice that the difference you are talking about are in the RINGS (That's R-I-N-G-S).

Lookie at the picture... they only show ONE set of bases for both the QRW and the PRW. Those bases come BY THEMSELVES... you don't buy either set of rings. They explain the difference in the RINGS (that's R-I-N-G-S).

I give up... get what ever you want. Hell, keep the STD rings and bases, I'm sure you will be happy.

rod...

You missed the whole point. Why spend $600 to $700 for an off the rack rifle, then spend another $400 to $500 to have the action "blueprinted", to put back the orginal barrel??? I don't care if it's a Rem, a Winchester, a Howa, or whatever. If someone needs that level of precision, get a custom action... then when you go to sell it, you will get most of your money BACK... if you put that much money into a OTR rifle, and go sell it, you will get $500 for the whole damn thing.

I need a friggin El Breako from this stuff.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 23:37:47 (ZULU)

Litto, first something nice. Just saw a new BDC for the MK4 from Leupold. Its marked for 190's 300wm and goes to 1300 yards. You do that? If so the moas built in are good to go. Cant wait for mine to get here this week.

Next not sure what you are talking about as a waste of money getting an action straight. I ahve ahd several done by GA Precisiopn and Norcal Precision and its a great thing to do when you build a weapon. I notice on my trued actions all rounds go in the same hole no matter how hot it becomes. Can you explain what you mean? Not sure I am following you or JR.

Lastly what do you think of the quality of the weaver style bases from Leupold? Are they good enough to mount a MK4 M3? and MK4 rings?

Grasshopper, never used the Mad Dog knives so cant speak. You come on by and we will beat the knives up and see.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Monday, December 9, 2002, at 23:46:02 (ZULU)

Okay, Okay!

I can now see that you are right and I'm wrong (thats W-R-O-N-G).

I've screwed up again (thats A-G-A-I-N).

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
I'm going back to my village, its missing this particular idiot, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:12:42 (ZULU)

"Rule two, rotate the guns...". Bolt, allow me to make a change that works for me. Rule two, rotate the wives. Console yourself with the fact that as long as you have more guns than ex's, you're not a slut.

Don K.

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:50:20 (ZULU)

Bolt - Your advice is excellent. My problem is the wife does the same thing with her closet, kids closet( 3 girls) and bed linens, dishes, and furniture. I really come out on the losing side. At least with full disclosure she only spend $3 to my $1. Far better than the 10 to 1 it used to be.

GROUP DRAG BAG PURCHASE : looking at putting together a group Drag bag purchase of the big bags from either Eagle or Blackhawk or London bridge. Don't have prices yet, but wanted to get a list together so I could talk to some folks at where ever we chose. Let me know on mfg and color via Email like George handled the SC rifle project. I vote for tan to go with the SC rifle camo.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 00:59:19 (ZULU)

Mr. T-I-Dubba-Guh-Errrrr,

That's Tigger...as in pooh bear. And that vilage idiot thing was funny! Now before you came back as a large feline--did you used to make pistols in a former life? Har-har.

Loopy two-parters is askin' for alignment problems. Well-made one piece bases are worth the investment. I use MK4 rings on a badger base--but only because Marty can't make rings fast enough for my "buy it now" mentality (or stupidity). High demand means something, now don't it? Ever see loopy standards on back order? Hmmm. BTW-I forgot, what are you mounting all this on? A winnie? The two piece MK4s are winnie and the one piece loopy is remmy--or am I catalog challenged too?

Boltster,

add a rule: Never let yer wife see a badger (premier) invoice. My base/rings cost more than her tikka...and she dudn't like that one bit...I had to appease her with our second stealth!!!! Heheh. I win. Would you believe that Tikka whitetail .270 NIB came even up in a trade for a very, very used Rossi 357? Dude wanted that POS baaaaaaad. Who wuz I to argue? I still laugh when I see retail price lists...

For those who asked: Blake did not get his deer. His only shot was at a mover, and he just yanked that trigger sideways. Doe-fever. He got the Maple though. And twenty-five push-ups for Fuhhh-gettin' everything he was taught. Well this was his first year with a center fire, so we'll just fall back on "practice, practice, practice" for a while.

One last dumb question: Will the short action Model 7 fit a SA 700 stock?

And where can I find metal bottoms to git rid of that plastic? Maybe I should call George and go whole hawg...boy deserves a decent stick for puttin' up with his dad...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:18:58 (ZULU)

'lito-- Clearly you are right,I did completely miss the point of your previous post(December 9, 2002,21:17:56 ZULU). But since you raised the issue, in that post you did not mention complete rifles- you specifically said "actions". You certainly did not say anything about putting the original barrel back on it once all the work was done. Now THAT WOULD BE DUMB. Please help me out by telling me where I can buy a "custom" action for less than it costs to "accurize" or "blueprint" a Rem or Win or whatever action.

Perhaps, just perhaps,there has been a time or two that you have been "damn silly" or "dumb" and spent some money on having an OTR ACTION fixed to make it shoot better. In your post ( referenced above) the issue of resale value was an after thought. And buy the way how often do the people here make an expenditure for a product or service (i.e.;action work) where resale value trumps how the rig SHOOTS. I have to think that the question of "how much can I sell it for" rarely , if ever, comes into play. In addition ,what about all the aftermarket stuff that is readily available (and CHEAP) for that lowly OTR action. Does Marty make bases for Brand X custom action? What about a stock for this beast? If the custom action costs less and is better than fixing a Rem or Win why don't George or Jerry or any of the other top tactical smiths prefer them. Why are the vast majority of 1000 yard benchresters using OTR actions that have been worked over.

Perhaps you do need a friggin El Breako from this stuff.

Rod

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:35:46 (ZULU)

Mike Miller...

>"Lito, first something nice. Just saw a new BDC for the MK4 from Leupold. Its marked for 190's 300wm and goes to 1300 yards. You do that? If so the moas built in are good to go. Can't wait for mine to get here this week."<

Yeah... I do that. It took me 3 years of beating up on them (Garth in particular)... and for them to make my changes, but it was worth it... the new cams play like they're guided missles ;)))

I have a M3-LR on the .308 M24, and a MK4-M3 on the .300WM M24, and with either, if I see it, it faw down, go boom!

As to trued actions... lookie. If a good smith takes a good OTR action and builds a good rifle, it will shoot very well. If the action is poorly made, then it MAY benefit from cleaning up, but likely it will shoot the same either way.

I doubt anyone has done a blind study on it, but if you take a good clean M70 or M700 action, and barrel it with a premium Schneider or Pak-Nor... shoot it, then take it apart, and clean up the action, put it together again and shoot it, I doubt that there would be any significant improvement, and it could go worse.

Much of this VooDoo comes from the Benchrest crowd, and you know how anal they can be.

As a craftsman I would prefer to work on a "Clean" action... for my own sticks, I first cut the ejector spring to 0.95" on all Rems and Win pushfeeds... then I polish the bolt face to a mirror finish (the fired primers look like little mirrors with a dimple in the middle).

I polish the bolt ways if they are rough, and do a list of other clean ups. All of this makes the riffle more pleasent to own and shoot, but does nothing to improve accuracy

An action that is so off that it really needs to have the bolt redone, or the barrel threads chased or recut... is so off that I wouldn't want to put more money into it. Just sell it and find another action. I'm sure that some will disagree, but I have many rifles (both Rems and Wins) that will shoot under .20" consistantly, and their actions are box stock.

As to the weaver style bases from Lupita... I like the QRW for setting up 1" scopes with the Burris "Signature ZEE" rings. On tac riffles, for the MK4-M3's I prefer the MK4 one piece base, cuz it's much lower than the Badger, and it has no taper (the MK4-M3 needs a flat base). For the M3-LR's I prefer the Badger bases.

rod...

>"You certainly did not say anything about putting the original barrel back on it once all the work was done."<

That's because I was responding to a comment about having a Rem "Bluprinted" to correct an elevation problem... there was no talk of getting a new barrel and doing a total rebuild.

If I had an action that was so bad that it needed more that a polishing of the rails and minor cleaning up of little stuff, I would NEVER put money into it to get it re-threaded... that's like putting warped heads on a racing Porsche engine... if you have to do a total re-machining to get it right, it's the wrong action to start with.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 01:49:08 (ZULU)

Undude,

Now I've got 5 o' your slings.

To all,

If your still using some other sling than a Tactical Intervention Sling... Well, to put it nicely, "You're WRONG!"

I spent a lotta years w/ Uncle Sam's Mis-guided Children using the issue sling for rifle qual. This Undude rig is the cat's ass. I've been using my first one for 2 years now. Still tighter'n a weddin' night pri#*. Not to mention FAST.

The preceding was an unashamed, unbiased, objective plug for a good friend's product. ;o)

Semper-Fi.

Spud.

Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:01:59 (ZULU)

Here is a link on the lack of commitment to the offense in OEF:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021209-15741127.htm

Since two of the principals in this thing have crossed my path over the years, I am inclined to take this at face value.

Grrrrrrrrrr.

Thought for the day: If you want to run for office--then take off the uniform and do it!

Disclaimer: Thoughts for the day and links to the times are in no way meant to imply that anyone in particular is a farkin' political ass...that would be improper.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:04:08 (ZULU)

Wes,

I wasn't trying to assign my pussified shooting preference to anyone else ;)) I wouldn't have a custom 300WM or a 338 Lapua built,,, cause I'm a recoil pussy. The fact that you shot that Sako without a break releases you from "recoil pussy" status. I'd have just stood there and watched,, thinkng of how it would feel if my color bone actually touched the inside of my shoulder blade.

Custom actions for the cost of a Remington/Winch + truing? Stolle Panda, $900, RPA Quadlite, $650, Nesika Bay (entry action) $1000. None of these have triggers,, but they are all perfect from the factory. You'll need to consider a custom inlet on your McMillan though,,, as none of these workie with a Rem/Win/Sav/Rug inlet except the quadlite and it needs to be pushed forward and the lug recess needs to be modified. Alex Sitman can do you up a stock that made exactly for you, from LOP to the distance of the trigger from the pistol grip, etc,,, But it'll cost ya $800.

Bench resters may use rems/win's etc... but the top prone shooters are using the above mensioned actions, plus CG's, AI's, Paramounts, swifts, Gilkes Ross, etc... The 40X's are the bottom of the line actions for the serious prone competitors. The guys like me,, who really just go to play and have fun, shoot rem's and winch's... the big boys bring toys that cost more than my truck, and they win. Course,, they'd beat me with a factory Savage,, so take that w/a gr of Varget. (salt is bad for my BP)

JR,,

You're in the land of RPA and AI's. Pick a couple up and see what you can make with them. ;))

FatBoy...

Been away for a week with no laptop so............

Camp McCoy Shoot -

What, where, when, who, why?

Peeing In A Wetsuit -

Nope. Won't even go there.

Atlanta, Georgia -

My son and his momma are most likely going to move there to open up his new business. Because of my background, they've asked me to help out with the financial stuff once a month, for a nice fee, of course! If I like what I see there, I might seriously consider moving out of Chad Land.

Do any of youse Hawgs live in the Atlanta area? Can anyone direct me somewhere to check out Georgia's firearms laws and firearms friendliness? How 'bout Atlanta area shooting facilities?

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:34:42 (ZULU)

Hey Moe !

How far is Boca from Ft. Myers ? Will be there doing some waterborne stuff first week in January.

Later dude,

BKS

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:40:53 (ZULU)

Fatboy, no slam here, please don't take it that way. Just want to make something clear on those actions you listed. Unless there's something I don't know, they're all single shots. No magazines at all. I've been TOLD that the RPA can be had as a magazine, but I've never SEEN one.

I know you were making a point, and well made it was. Just didn't want folks to think you were talking base actions for what most would consider tactical rifles. Now let's see how many of these bellycrawlers want to live with the One Shot mentality LOL.

When I start shooting possibles, then I'll THINK about a CG. Until then, it would be a case of a sows ear shooting an empty silk purse.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:51:33 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I know what you mean about Premier Recipt, the wife didn't thing the price of the new Stealth was bad. But was shocked to see the price for the scope, MK4 rings, Badger base & Mildot master. Ouch!!

But then again when I came home with a real nice 9 pointer with my muzzleloader the first thing she said was "Boy that sure would look nice over the fireplace". I will never understand what makes Woman think anything is a good or bad idea.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 02:55:03 (ZULU)

Moe - Georgia Firearms Laws:

Hey, who says VPC aint good for nothing?

"Georgia Firearm Laws

No licensing or registration requirements related to purchase or possession of any firearms.

No waiting period for purchase of handguns, shotguns, or rifles.

There are no age restrictions related to possession of rifles or shotguns.

Handgun possession by persons less than 18 years of age is a misdemeanor for a first-time offense, a felony for a second-time offense. Exemptions from the prohibition on handgun possession by persons less than 18 years of age exist for attendance at a hunter's or firearms safety course, target practice at a shooting range, and other similar activities."

Sounds like a might friendly place to be....

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:10:48 (ZULU)

Jaeger,

Youse completely correct mang. This was a discussion myself and another shooter I highly respect had. Many seem to think the solid floor design makes for a stiffer action. A stiffer action (supposedly) makes for a more accurate rifle.

Is it true?? Shit,, I don't know. We both came to the conclusion that a Remington 700, A Winchester, a Nesika Bay, A Viper Python and a host of others can, and have, shoot 200 scores at 1000y. The Single shot may give you the edge when it comes to X count, if you have the skills to capitolize, and that's what many of these matches come to. It'll be a long time, if ever, before I see higher scores due to my action,, but they are beautiful,,, and smooth as silk.

As you said,, no repeaters. Nesika is coming out with one and there's always Dakota or Prarie Dog Gun Works, and the AI repeaters, etc... but like you said,,, a target rifle does not a tactical rifle make.

Moe,

You move to Hotlanta and you're only 2.5 hours from our monthly 1K shoots, about 2 hours from JW's 5 or so HardRock 1K matches, a couple hours from the 600 yard Benning matches, 2 hours from Oak Ridge and their monthly and weekly 1K matches and Palma shoots. And I haven't even touched on the highpower circuit. Chatanooga will have the 500 yard line up this year, we have 100 thru 1K, Oak Ridge has 100 to 1K and there are many, many small 200 reduced courses,, but I MUCH prefer the full course so I don't remember any.

My Father lived in Douglasville before moving back down to Florida. He got his Carry permit in 60 days. Very easy, and reciprocol with many, if not all, of Florida's recipricol states. They have numerous gun shows in Hotlanta and the surrounding 'burbs also. The trouble with Atlanta,, TRAFFIC!!!!!! Best to got to work around 4am and go home about 1PM (skip lunch!!) because the traffic is absolutely HORRIBLE. Other draw back,, state taxes.

Dean Miller,, where you at mang?? You can fill Moe in much better than I.

FatBoy...

Ken M,

Email me a contact phone number so we'se can get coordinated on coordinations. Once the holidays are off, we'll want to push fast on all the ankle-biters in setting this up. So far, a capabilities drill--if available (units training would help there). Post orientation...too easy--these guys are proud. I do this for edumacators all the time. It ain't a bad dog-and-pony. Then, shoots on the KD and maybe the multi-purpose and of course, pop-ups and whatever else we can schedule. The state patrol academy is here, as well as a MAITS site; might squeeze those in.

Might be good to open a discussion on how many days/ which days work best for max participation. ie-tues thru sunday, or whatever...

Chris,

any advice you may have for this would be a big help too.

Joe U,

Yer initials, JLU remind me of my last squad in the duece. I had a Fillipino and a Hispanic Team leader under me. The phonetic alphebet was a challenge for me over the radio! One dude always said "Julu" for zulu. When I see your 'JLU" I can hear that in the back of my mind...that and Roy-yer. I bumped into one of those guys years later while fishing on sheep creek in Alaska. I didn't recognize him until he started mimicking himself overthe radio! I died laughing. But I came back as me.

EEEEEZA Roy-yer, ober!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
FT McCoy, WI, USofA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:25:43 (ZULU)

"blueprinted" actions et al.................the only truing ya need is the lugs....gently. there's a big ass spring in one side of the bolt that's gonna cant the cartridge anyway unless you're building a game gun.

Square up the face so that the lug matches up all pretty an stuff...............

The important part is the chamber.........cut it square with the bore, cut it one time., and do it ALL with the finish reamer so only one tool has to be aligned.

Yeah, you gotta buy a new reamer for the shop, but then it's your 300 buck barrel, so what's another 80 or so on top of that.

Life gets real consistant cold/warm/clean/fouled.

Some old dude with 27 world records gave me that little tip.........as we were rebarreling my stick in his shop over a weekend. forget his name......Ed something or other.

Mike inTexas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:39:19 (ZULU)

FatBoy;

Hate to hear about your bp. I'm told Varget is good for all ailments. It has to inhaled in smoke form from a brass container to work well, but the effects are supposed to be excellent. It soothes my nerves.

LATER

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 03:54:50 (ZULU)

Georgia Gun Laws:

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws.asp?FormMode=Detail&R=GA

Moe,

Do you have instant messenger or icq ? I live in Buford which is about 40 miles Northeast of Atlanta and I will be happy to give you a bunch of info..

We're about 2 hours from the 1k Match in Opelika, about 2 Hours from the Ft Benning Matches, 3 Hours from Chris' Matches, 2 Hours From Augusta's 1k Matches... There is a 600 Yard ANYANY Match near us in Dawsonville which is about 1 hour from me. Also there is a second 600 yard ANYANY down at Ft Benning operated by the Chatahoochee County Club.

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 04:05:47 (ZULU)

I would like to know if any can tell me where to buy a remington 700P. i am trying to decide what kind of rifle i want. Either a standart 700P .308, 700P TWS .308, or a 700P LTR. But i would like to see them before i buy them or a least find a site that sells them.

I am civilian but am still very interested in this gun. Can someone tell me where to buy it.

Thanks for your time

Brian Nichols

Brian Nichols <bcnvirus@aol.com>
East Bank, WV, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 04:20:56 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon....My particular Howa is holding up just fine. Last round count was, let's see, somewhere in the 500 region, so I don't know how it's going to be at the 1k mark, but so far, so good. If'n I do my part, it's usual to make little jaggedy holes at 100, best group so far out to 500 was 1.7". Still chrono's 2660 out of the 20" tube with 46 gr Varget and Sierra 168 gr HPBTM.

Bolt, I just gave up and got a regular gun case with a key. Wiffe would have a fit if she couldn't get to "her" Howa whenever she wanted. Of course, she says it's "hers" and I just will hafta be satisfied with buying another one for me. Trick is, get a good one the first time. That goes for rifles, too.....

Cris, try more beer for the blood pressure problems. Might not work, but you won't care near as much. Finally going to get to burn some powder in the morning. Dirty Steve still won't go, mumbled something about "making up lost time" now that Irene's back from a year Active duty. Go figure.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:04:53 (ZULU)

Litto, good job on the bDC's for Leupold!

As to trued actions. Honestly I have no fng clue who is right on this. I spent a day with Jerry Ric watching him bed a rifle. Man thats alot of work. He made sure everything was set in a mil, square, level and centered, you name it. He them milled the pillars and cut to perfect length on the mill. Made sure the action wa slevel in he stoock before evenb thinking about bedding. I mean if I saw anyone do this much work I would think it would cost 500-1000 to have it done.

I also saw all the work that goes into truing an actiopn and puttinga bbl and hamber in. Everything is set up perfect and the amountof work is unbelieveable. I know why he work shoots sub 1/2moa groups all day. Nothging is left to chance.

Now befoe I knew Jerry and George Gardner I just bought a stock, put in the drill press and made pillars out of heavy walled aluminum tubing. slapped it all together with Marine Tex and they always shot pretty well. Well a heck of alot better than a PSS.

I had severalmatch bbls screwed on without truing and they always shot well, but nothing I ever slapped together ever came close to a Rice or Gardner rifle. I mean with thier work its always one hole, in the same place everytime. I dont know why I just know it works.

So the answer is? I dont know why just that having the tricks doen makes it work.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:18:53 (ZULU)

Just figured out why the kittywhacker is coming across short. For decades he's gotten used to cold women, now everything around him is so cold even the kitties are wearing parkas. You still popping the fat ladies overgrown rats, or you giving them a break since they're wearing sky blue camo down coats? Hey, if you get bored, you can always try running them down in an old pinto LOL

Seriously, way to go on the BDC's.

Roger that on the solid bottomed actions. I might comment on this if I ever get one. Don't hold your breath though, just don't see it in my near future. Unless Wes wants to renig on a deal. Always a day late and a dollar short.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 05:49:00 (ZULU)

Mike,

I'm trying to get that picture out of my head of you, in blond ghillie, with a stock in a drill press, the CARNAGE!!! ;)) silliness...

And, it's not that much work when you get the perfect set-up... Once you get it right, and get a few thousand under yer belt, perfection becomes as natural as pickin' yer nose.. What throws you off is when you have to show someone else how to do it right the first time, or expect them to anyway...

Chris,

RPA is on the menu for this summer......I think RPA might be having a magazine, if not now then very soon, as they are trying to tap the tactical market. They have plans for an RPA tactical rifle, and a SS won't do for that. Not sure what they took over to Canada for the .338 la-pooa trials.

Where's that 'smith from Florida? yoo hoo!!

off to groovyville, sometimes work can be so bore-ing (I crack me up)

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 06:57:44 (ZULU)

Optical Camouflage

http://www.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/projects/MEDIA/xv/oc.html

Some day, your 'camo' may consist of a white reflective suit, a digital camera, and a projector or two.

The videos are pretty impressive.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 07:22:29 (ZULU)

Chris...

Aw Shit! Are we all speaking english here? I NEVER said that you could get a custom action for $500... I said by the time you have bought a rifle for the action, and then had someone spend the time to fix it, you would be into it for more than a custom action. Damn, you can buy a used 40-XB and build on that.

And rod... none of the serious longrange shooters are building their rifles around a hunting grade M700. That would be like building a race car around a VW engine.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 11:51:43 (ZULU)

Rangefinder review,

Aimpoint 2000? This is the one from Sportsman Guide. Optics are fair. The ranging tests yesterday (bright sun) were disappointing. It's supposed to be overcast today so I'll test again. Early opinion.... not worth the the $279.95 at all. The numerical display is a VERY light blue. Washes out in bright light easily. More later. Will check the speed measurement against the radar in one of the squads today.

'lito,

"As a craftsman I would prefer to work on a "Clean" action... for my own sticks, I first cut the ejector spring to 0.95" on all Rems and Win pushfeeds... then I polish the bolt face to a mirror finish (the fired primers look like little mirrors with a dimple in the middle)."

"I polish the bolt ways if they are rough, and do a list of other clean ups. All of this makes the riffle more pleasent to own and shoot, but does nothing to improve accuracy"

How do you do this? Any special tools? What polishing compounds and such. I've used Flitz metal polish on a .223 chamber before. Applied with a Qtip and cordless drill. :))

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 12:17:41 (ZULU)

'Lito-san,

I never meant to imply you said you could get a custom action for $500. If I read you correct,, you said it's silly to buy a $500 rifle and then spend $400 more getting it rebuilt, cause you still got a $500 rifle (or a $70 action ;)). I agree,,, and was just showing guys that for the price of a new rifle + 400 you can get a custom action sans trigger, that WILL be perfect in every way.

What I forgot to mension is that most of these actions have the scope bases machined into them. No need to worry about offset holes ;) Only drawback is no weaver slots in 90% of them, but they do make rails that will slide on and bolt down. Gives you a picatinny rail, but also raises the cheek weld.

Me,, I buy my actions at the guns shows. Wish I could get them for $70!!! Cheapest I've been able to manage is $275 for a early 70's M70LA,, but I passed cause man it was rougher than a corn cob... $300 is the standard rate for a Remington 700 here,, and about $350 for a Winchester.

JR,

You going with a quadlock or a quadlite repeater? I Think it would have to be the quadlock,, but they're both very short for the magnum loadings.

FatBoy...

Hawgs,

Folks we're scheduled to copy the snipercountry site to what will be it's permanent hosting home for at least the next five years. The connectivity will be great. During that time - I will stop the snipercountry site service - so the transfer will go alot faster... and no posts will be lost. During this time --- you will not be able to see the site..... if all goes well later this afternoon/evening.... it oughta really blaze.

take care gents....

ken hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, us of a - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 12:43:07 (ZULU)

Bolt..Another rule;

NEVER tell the wife that guns are a good investment! Sooner or later they will want to know when you are going to cash in.

I tell the wife that my purchasing guns is a form of public service as every one I keep off the street the bad guys can't misuse for some evil purpose.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 13:02:28 (ZULU)

Markwell...

>"NEVER tell the wife that guns are a good investment! Sooner or later they will want to know when you are going to cash in."<

HA!... I hear that. My Ex tried that during the divorce. Tell them that it's wholesome hobby that keeps you away from other women and various sins. That works sometimes.

Chris...

It's Rem that pays about $75 for the action... we pay a bit more ;)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 13:20:18 (ZULU)

Catman..

I know what your "Trying" to say on the Rem and Winchester actions. You can put a lot of money into one and still not have the quality of a custom one with nearly the same price.

Chris..

Nasika Bay "Does" have a repeater and I believe one of the others you mentioned has one too. For some reason I think it was a Hall but could have been a Stolle or a Panda too. I just don't remember now. I had looked into getting one years back but just couldn't justify that much money for what I do.

I got out to shoot again last night. It was 45 and only a 5 mph wind which is dead calm for here. I found that the 142s would not fit into my action at the OAL I had them at. When seated in to fit the mag they weren't nearly as accurate. However the 140AMAX tightened right up when seated a little deeper, now go figure that one out!!!

I shot three groups off the bench at 200yds. The one with 142s went into a 1.280 with 4 in a .523 at mag length. The two groups with 140 AMAXs went into a .788 with 4 in, get this, a .222!!!! The other group was .67 something. These are actual group sizes "NOT" MOAs. This is while fire forming new Lapua brass that was sized down to the 260. Just ask me if I love this new Kreiger barrel!!!(HA) Hell double (HA)!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 14:48:18 (ZULU)

So Ken, what you are saying is that we will still be here you just won't be able to see us for a little while, right ?

Fitting for a site named Snipercountry ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 15:01:06 (ZULU)

Howdy folks, long time no read.

Wes, Fatboy and any other 6,5x.284 lovers...

i want some of your insights on an idea i have.

Like some of you maybe know, i own a Sako TRG 22. And i am very happy about it. I was also gonna buy me a new custom stick in the above mentioned calibre.

"Unfortenately" i joined the police force last year and i now earn about a third less than i did when i was still in the Army.

So no custom stick money for next year.

I heard about a guy who had also a TRG22 but with a 6,5x.284 barrel. Since i know of a gunsmith who can do this for not tomuch money, i am really considerring a rebarrel job for next season.

What do you guys think of this, is it worth the money or do i risk turning my good shooting .308 in a piece of junk??

All thoughts apreciated,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 16:17:15 (ZULU)

Catman or Undude..

Could you guys either post or send me the data off the 190 dial for the MK4s and will they be making the dial for the M3 long range??? Thanks!!!

State gun laws>>>

If you move to South Dakota they check to see if you own a gun, if not, they give you one!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:23:38 (ZULU)

<<<<<<<State gun laws>>>

If you move to South Dakota they check to see if you own a gun, if not, they give you one!!!>>>>>>

How do explain Daschle, did he move there from California?

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:54:52 (ZULU)

Gents,

a rant:

I posted that link reference timid application of force vs. potential casualties. Thought about the phenomena all night. Can anyone blame these guys for "what-iffing" an operation into oblivion? Look at the shit-storm from Mog--bad karma. The media just loves to portray our forces as nearly invincible--so to be the first US commander since Vietnam to send a boat load of body bags to Dover ain't high on anyone's agenda. It is a vicious cycle--media, politics, zero-defect officers...Politically, we wilt on the first hint of casualties--lookit Clinton sending that plane to pick up addid just after the raid...one day mortal enemy, next a deal making peace broker. Go figure. The media is convinced that desert storm is the new norm for US warfare, and anything less would be "failure" at its worst. Officers, we take our cues from the Pols and the winds of opinion in the media...and react accordingly. For better or worse. Most of us know that war is a place to get hurt--some of us can't bring ourselves to "give the word" anymore. Whudda sorry ass state.

The good news is Rummy seems to have no patience for that kind of careerism. And by gawd, it will take a hard-ass like him to begin the change needed in our very thinking. I think the media will come around after a while--but we need to get past them. Ya know, in pounds of flesh for acres of realestate--TET was a bigger victory than St. Lo; just try to find that in print anywhere! I am inclined to give some benefit of doubt to these commanders, if only to understand why they act (or not) in 'stan. I can't excuse them--but I understand. Now, we need to say bye-bye and get some one who isn't worried about himself---yes, worry for the troops, but not himself. Mission, troops. I wonder what it is about stars that cloud that issue. The key to command is to focus down...know your task, your troops and do it. Hell, that's what the boss wants...but we have a bunch focusing "up" the chain. Overt or subtly; these guys suck the egg and get promoted.

Grrrrrrr, rant off.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 17:58:53 (ZULU)

Nick...

When we went out to South Dakota shootin' P'Dogs, we took a bunch of pistols with us.

So we dropped into the local sheriff and asked for applications for a pistol permit... and he said "What's that?"

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 18:04:07 (ZULU)

Gents, my .02 worth...

Action trueing: If you are going to spend money to have a custom match grade tube installed it's a must and doesn't add that much to the cost. I have rifles both ways, but the ones that shoot best are the "trued" actions. Personal choice, again. I know what mine is...

Chris, the .338 Lapua...I like it, can't help it if you are recoil sensitive...at those levels almost anyone would be...if it helps we'd still think you're a pussie...;-)

Marco, the 6.5 X .284 vs the .308 in your Sako: I'd shoot the daylights out of the .308 and then rebarrel when shot out. Unless you have a real need for the flatter trajectory, etc., of the 6.5 X .284.

Make sure you have more than 2.800" magazine length. Not familiar with the magazine length on your rifle.

More as time permits.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 19:07:21 (ZULU)

Nick..

We all have a cross to bear and he's ours!! I don't think he will make it again. He has suckered the people into believing that he is in a position to do them so much good now. Most have seen his true colors and hopefully will do the right thing and dump his liberal ass.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:23:38 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

<<The important part is the chamber.........cut it square with the bore, cut it one time., and do it ALL with the finish reamer so only one tool has to be aligned....>>>

I both agree and disagree with that statement...I prefer to have 2 reamers to chamber, a rougher and a finish reamer, both are cartridge specific. It all depends on your set up, but if both reamers are piloted, and the work is running true to the tools, it's all good.. Both reamers MUST be piloted of course, I use the same pilot for both reamers.. You can't mount a chamber reamer in the Jacobs chuck, either use a reliable floating reamer holder or the 'hold on to your ass' method of using the lathe dog while driving the reamer with a center. Anyway, the less work the finish reamer has to do, the betterer.. I've chambered both ways, with the finish reamer alone, and the 2 reamers, and I do find the latter for most rifle cartridges faster, as well as easier on the tool.. There is NO NEED to buy a new reamer for the 'smith every time you rebarrel, that's just ridiculous, not with the quality reamers out today, plus he's charging you for the tooling and use of anyway, he's really takin the piss if you're supplying HIM with tools.. PLUS, heh this post was going to take about 2 sentences to begin with, brand spankin' new chamber reamers don't always cut that well, sometimes they need a little TLC, read stone, or a break in chamber or two before they perform like they should, then they cut like butter. Would you like your barrel to be the break in barrel? Use a reputable upstanding 'smithy and he'll have the right tool for the job..

Pat,

Good to see you finally got some sense in ya and joined the cut-rifled barrel club. Couldn't a picked a better barrelmaker, top notch folk that Kreiger is.. I promise I won't tell you 'I TOLD YOU SO', promise..

oh, and finding someone who voted for Daschle is like finding someone who voted for Clinton. No one will admit to it. It's an enigma how in a state as conservative as SoDak, we could elect as liberal as you could get Douschel.. But, I've always heard that SoDak elects our Federal representatives Democrats to bring the money in to the state, and Republicans in the State house and governorship to spend it..

2 weeks 'til Santy Claws comes down the chimney, can you believe how fast this year went by? like a blur!!

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:36:24 (ZULU)

'lito,

U have mail. n/a

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 20:38:26 (ZULU)

>>>>>>"When we went out to South Dakota shootin' P'Dogs, we took a bunch of pistols with us.

So we dropped into the local sheriff and asked for applications for a pistol permit... and he said "What's that?"<<<<<<

Be still my heart! Hell will freeze over before those words are ever spoken in Joisy. :(

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:04:17 (ZULU)

JR,

Makes good sense.

I volunteered to buy the reamer........now it's mine...all mine! :) I've cut the last 4 barrels with new reamers; I do stone them before use, just because it seems like a good idea....and had excellent (repeatable) results doing it this way.

Jacobs chuck is sure a bad idea...................

Joe M,

Was speaking with Major sister in law (ring knocker) in HHC in Kuwait, dumbass career colonel assured the troops they'd all be home before 12/20 this year. Clint Smith musta be thinking of this guy when he said some folks need to be shot.

Mike inTexas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:14:11 (ZULU)

Spent all night in the woods, kind of chilly out, -11C all night, saw a large boar, but as the pig rut is in full swing and he'd be full of testosterone and the meat would be stinking I decided to not to shoot him, ( all you can do with a boar like that is sell it to a game dealer who will pass it on to some one who can't taste the difference),

Any of you guys noticed a difference in Cold Bore Shot when the barrel realy is cold? not that it would make a difference at pig range, but its just something i was thinking about at 03.00 this morning, when i wanted to drink some of the coke id taken up the tree stand with me, the damn bottle was frozen solid.

Blueprinting-accurising whatever you want to call it, squaring up the lugs and keeping CHS to a minimum seems to improve Rem 700's.But we could discuss the advantages or likely improvements 'till the cows come home. If resale value is what you are after, then no matter how much money you stick in a Rem 700, a Win 70 or a Howa, they remain what they are when it comes to selling them, just another factory rifle, its a case of horses for courses, and individual preferences and budgets, if money is no problem, what the hell, me I take great pleasuer in turning up to a range and seeing the wide eyed looks on the faces of the custom rifle(read action) croud when i start poping all the bullets into the same hole with my self built , heym barreled Rem 700, using factory hunting ammo(its even better when i do it with the 450 marlin), wether i could stay infront at any great distance is a different matter( i lack time, practice and facilities). Practice and confidence in the equipment you are using cannot be over looked, If spending big bucks on fancy actions give confidence in equipment so be it, like wise, if shooting several barrels out in a factory improved R700 or W70 breeds another kind of confidence, then, so be it too.

Having a good barrel, with a good chamber(on centre-minimum CHS,, nicely cut and finnished) and a good crown, then holding in the case in the chamber so it doesn't move when fired, will 99.9% of the time get you decent respectable accuracy, if you have the action and bolt absolutely square to the barrel and chamber (and case head) it is bound to be better and give more consitent accuracy.

It would be interesting, if all the actions mentioned on the roster had the same threads and we could screw 1 barrel(the same barrel) into them and then see if the accuracy improved or varied between each action, that might be an eye opener.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 21:20:02 (ZULU)

Chris

Thanks for the pointer on keeping the barrel channel clean.

Eduardo Cotto <Eduardocotto@hotmail.com>
Bay City, Michigan, USA - Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 23:02:08 (ZULU)

PeteL,

Piggie ranges' CBS is moot for the application like you said, but if'n it gets any colderer (ALOT colder), petroleum based lubes will lock the firing pin. We dealt with that in Alaska shootin' Bou off of snowshoes. Man, that kinda' cold ain't right! I thought I "wiped" all the oil res off my pin, but musta left some. I was the last one to go "click" but I was also alone over the kills at the time when the wolves came in. Helluva time to have the Sako sitting out the action. My 629 was under gortex, down, poly, and cotton. You shoulda seen me:

1) strip

2) shoot

3) get dressed

Talk all you want about video split second draws--I'd have beat anyone that night on the Yukon! I dunno how cold it was, but the REI thermometer had all the mercury in the ball under the -65F mark! Oil becomes crystallyne somewhere down there...oh, made $75 bucks on the wolves too. Worst fun I ever had :)))

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 00:14:22 (ZULU)

OK,guys I am trying to remember a product talked about on this site a while ago to get rid of the "SPROING" noise in AR15 buttstock when fired.I seem to remember it being made by TUBB but all I can find is the CWS.Is that it?Thanks for any replies in advance,you can send the info off the board if you like.

Phil Andrews <Bladewurk@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:00:02 (ZULU)

Joe, we don't get that cold here, (that don't mean i won't get hunting anywhere that will be that cold though.. ) I think we had -18 C + the wind chill last winter, but thats about as low as it gets. at the 50m or so piggies tend to be at when shot out of the stand at night, providing the rifle goes bang, all should be ok. But i was wondering about a longer shot, between 150 to 300m+ or so, i do hunt some areas where that would be definate a possibility, i don't suppose the cold would put me out of the vitals on a pig, but it may on a fox or a racoon. I only use synthetic lubricant and haven't had anything freeze up so it wouldn't function yet, I've had sights full of snow though(iron and scope) and icicles hanging off the barrel,

Stalking at the moment is about impossible, everything frozen and the damn leaves give too much sound, but i have found that irratic movement, shuffling my feet, stopping and shuffling some more tends to have the effect that animals wait to see whats comming, I try to make my footsteps sound like a pig or a badger rooting among the leaves, the odd grunt increases the effect. I have to get some whites before any snow comes.

Marc, you never answer your phone, what you doing 17th Dec, fancy a driven boar hunt?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:09:46 (ZULU)

I figured I just had to get in on this one:

#1. Who is paying $400 to get an action trued??? That is ridiculous; it’s normally $300-$350 to have a Blank Installed which includes truing of the receiver. $100 is more like it for the action truing part. At least that’s what I charge.

#2. It is important that the barrel be Threaded/Chambered on center preferably on a steady rest as far away from the chuck as possible. (To eliminate even the slightest error in the chuck, and give the best mathematical advantage. with a sharp reamer taking time to clean out the chips every .100 or so. .010 on final cut. (By the way piloted roughers are great and save the life of the finisher.)

Here is where Lito and some of you are missing the point.

Let’s say we have a perfect barrel. Done exactly right. A perfectly centered chamber, straight/square threads min headspace.

Depending on what reamer/chamber you use there is built in slop. (I.e. .338-.344 Nk size. in 308 and the same goes with the body of the chamber. But when you headspace at the Min Spec's, as we do when building tack drivers the bolt face is holding the case snug against the shoulder in the chamber. Now: If your receiver has threads that are out of alignment. Lugs that are not square, A receiver ring that is uneven (being saw cut by Remington) or the bolt face not square. Where does this leave your cartridge????? Its shoved over to one side of the chamber causing the round to become unaligned with the bore. Hopefully you are all still with me, a drawing would show this better but I am not that computer inclined yet.

This would be why it is important to also completely true all 4 points of contact in your receiver when having a custom tube installed. You are paying allot of $ for that tube I think you and your Barrel Maker deserve the best launch platform possible.

My $5 Worth

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
N.Kansas City, MO , USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 01:17:16 (ZULU)

Dean, Byron, Chris -

Thanks for the info on Atlanta. I'm not planning on a "right now" move, though. Heck, the boy doesn't even have a location for his store yet, maybe in a few weeks.

Looks like there's lots of action within a couple hours driving, which is cool. Number one son may have his place in the metro area but I'd probably be looking at something more in the sticks for myself. You know, something I can build my own 1K range on! That would be velly, velly cool! :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:10:16 (ZULU)

George. isn't that what i said?

In my experience, the biggest problem with Rem 700's is the way excessive headspace they come with. Of course i only play with em as a hobby these days and haven't worked on near as many as you, but i've had good results removing the factory barrel, trueing the lugs and reciever end and the bolt face,(most only needed work on the lugs but some had the reciever faced off at funny angles to the centre line of the action, as if some one just held the reciever in the chuck and took the end off instead of using a mandrel) taking the barrel shoulder back (so the barrel screws in more) in order to have the case seated under slight pressure when the bolt is closed, and yes, putting the factory barrel back in, ok, they are a bitch to clean, will never shoot as good as a good barrel, but for guys who can't or wont pay for a good barrel, especialy if all they want is an accurate hunting rifle, the difference between out of the box, and accurised is about 50% smaller groups 100% better consitency.Most( by no means all) Rem 700's i have played with would hold between 1"and 1.5"out the box with factory ammo, sorting the reciever, minimising the head space but keeping the factory barrel will half that,I currently have 3 Rem 700's, 2 have Heym barrels and one has a Rem factory tube ( that i begged in order to swap from 22.250 to 308) The Heym barrels way out class the factory thing,( both in accuracy and ease of cleaning), but even it will hold 1/2"groups (5 shot) with factory hunting ammo, when i (in the distant future) have some spare cash (and aren't buying bricks tiles and DIY tools with it) I'd like to rebarrel it to 450 Marlin, but I wonder if it will feed ok? People can knock the Rem 700, and yes the factory certainly do have Quality Control issues to sort out, but it is the yard stick by which many many other rifles are judged, you can get a shed load of parts and accessories for it, there are many smiths building excellent rifles on it and it is a handy and good looking rifle. Custom actions are just more of an investment, rifles built on them tend to hold thier value more than those built on an accurised factory action. I think if i was going to start again and buy the tooling, i'd probably go for a Sako action over the Remington, but as i have all i need to sort the Rem700's out, i'll just keep using them(untill we get the 5 gun limit).

Guy asking about building on that Sako Forester action, shouldn't be a problem, McMillan has stocks (as far as i know) and getting it worked on or rebarreled should be no problem either.

Paul Cockerham - rings on way.

Marc, I'm buggered if i found that bolt stop yet.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:42:38 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln...........I just found one of those rare gems, go here http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/turnbo/toc.html#vol1

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:53:45 (ZULU)

We were all wrong ! In the latest copy of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement magazine you see that the Rem 700 based .280 Ackley Improved with a Loopy 3.5x10x50 is "Tactical Rifle Perfection!" Ok I guess we all have to sell our .308's, 300's, 6.5's and everything else to get one of these new sticks or were not en-vouge. How could we have known? How, How, How?

Joe M.- One of my hunting rifles is a S&W 1500 (AKA Howa 1500) in 30-06. I have about 1000 rds of factory ammo or so on it and it is holding up just fine.

Take care.

Joe S.

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, Cali, US of A - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:53:55 (ZULU)

Sinister,

You got mail re: Swedish Mauser target riffles.....

Later,

Rich

RichS. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 02:59:05 (ZULU)

*****Sniper Country Rifle Update*****

The deadline has come and gone, There will be 50 rifles built. 2 rifles will be auctioned off here in the future. (#1 and #2).

If you didnt get your money in the Mail by today, Im Sorry.

Stocks are on Order, Barrels are already in production and 50 Recievers are on the way.

Look to have all of them compleated by the end of May, (fingers crossed) so anyone wanting to shoot them in any of the spring shoots that are poping up will be ready.

By the way, going against recent opinions these rifles will have compleatly trued actions. LOL

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:23:13 (ZULU)

>>People can knock the Rem 700<<

Yes. And there's a reason "big green" is a very appropriate synonym now. Somewhat reminiscent of a festering bowl of dog snot, eh?

>>and yes the factory certainly do have Quality Control issues to sort out<<

That's putting it mildly, but OK.

>>but it is the yard stick by which many many other rifles are judged<<

Unless you believe what people say about the Great American Riflemans Rifle, the Winchester pre-'64 model 70.

>>you can get a shed load of parts and accessories for it, there are many smiths building excellent rifles on it and it is a handy and good looking rifle.<<

Reminds me of a discussion I had with a great engine builder about the Chevrolet versus Chrysler debates. Chrysler has never had the after market parts base that Chevrolet does. I was informed the reason for that was "with a Chrysler, you generally don't need them". If there's a world of doo-dads out there, odds are there's a reason. Just look at what you get with a stock Ruger 10/22, and all the doodads available for that rifle. Unless I am mistaken, the top speed in a sanctioned NASCAR race is still held by Chrysler.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:24:18 (ZULU)

And while I'm posting, hey Marty, what's the odds on getting those guys to chamber their 452 American in 17HMR?

And out of curiousity, what's the smallest case capacity standard chambered 17 cal centerfire cartridge? Those 17s are fun, but buying cartridges just goes against my grain.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:42:33 (ZULU)

To True or not to true...that is a dumb ass question!

I was going to post a bandwidth encompassing dissertation but I read George’s post

And all I can add is if you don’t want to do it right, that’s ok, you will be one less person we have to outshoot.

You tune a car, some people spend more money on…get this… Harley’s! than they do on guns…weird!!!

So if you don’t want to trick out your gun, ok buy me, I will wave to you from the winners circle.

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:46:27 (ZULU)

Gents,

The 6.5 X 08 Obermeyer data I promised some of you goes in the mail in the morning.

Just "pontificating" a bit. Cost of shooting: Say $600.00 for a premium barrel and installation. With a service life of 1500 rounds it's gonna cost you 40 cents per round in barrel life. With a life of 10,000 rounds it drops to 6 cents per rounds. Which just goes to show that the .308 does it's job economically and that most of us are cheapskates...:-)

Sako .338 goes out tomorrow. Hate to see it go, but plans for a repeater dictate otherwise.

Oregon rain/wind has started in earnest, today, in the Oregon coast mountain range. Gotta love it...

Oregon: "Where subguns are watercooled"...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 03:47:03 (ZULU)

Marty & George,

Thanks for your comments.... Much appreciated

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:02:02 (ZULU)

Jaeger, i knew there was a reason i liked the cherokee jeep, its chrysler right? I am though... ( Uncle George from Oz will turn in his grave) about to buy a Mitsubishi.

Marty, talking of tricking out guns, you ever get them alloy rings made i asked you about?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:37:32 (ZULU)

Peter, on the Jeep: That's now a Diamler. The I-6 on the Jeep is phenominal. The Cherokee is a framed truck with a well deserved good reputation, the Grand a unibody car. Additionally, the unibody comes with an 8 that is less than phenominal in all ways. There's someone on this site that has lots of experience with the Mitsus. Ask and ye shall receive.

Now how about some good 17 cal info!

We now return to your regularly scheduled shooting program

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 04:56:44 (ZULU)

Just heared that a shipment of scuds was held up on its way from Korea to Yemen..

Funny, the 4 space craft i fly for a living are also Daimler/Chrysler..OK who is the Mitsubishi guy? and whats a hard top for a SWB MK 2 Pajero cost, I'm looking at a V6 with a soft top, ( rather have the solid top but its in nice condition, has a warne winch and is cheap).

Anybody shot any/many game animals with the Hornady SST?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:13:01 (ZULU)

Joe M, you have mail, if you have not got it already.

As for the war non-fighting/career saving BS, that's why the officers should just give the order to execute and let us enlisted types take it from there. See no evil, hear no evil and you can still honestly tell the political scum that you're not aware of any terrorists being killed in ambushes or raids;-)

Joe S, that gun rag got it just about right, except it's a 280AI with a 10x Mk4M1 and it's based on a pre-64 M70, which still is the best rifle ever factory produced. Hopefully I'll get it soon before some other gun rag rips off one of my other ideas.

On NASCAR speedsters, the record is held by Bill Elliot in a Ford T-bird back before restrictor plates. Something like 212mph at Tallega IIRC. There was recently a stock block Hemi Superbird(might have been a Daytona) that reset the flying mile at 236mph or so. Stock parts in the engine and stock body with some duct tape. Super Stock '68 Cudas and Darts are still the fastest SS cars. High 8's at over 150mph in the 1/4mile. Don't even bother trying a Fuel class without a Hemi based motor. You'd have to be a rich lunatic to even get the engine to stay together. Last non-Chrysler based Hemi to win a Fuel Event was in '67, and that was a 427 SOHC Ford, which had hemispherical combustion chambers, so it was a rip off job too. Although it was a nicely done rip-off, it made plus/minus 647hp stock as a crate motor with a 4bbl. Between that and the Hemi, that was when NASCAR slammed the door on the engine wars of the late 60's. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
Occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:15:08 (ZULU)

Marty: "And all I can add is if you don’t want to do it right, that’s ok, you will be one less person we have to outshoot...So if you don’t want to trick out your gun, ok buy (sic) me, I will wave to you from the winners circle."

Given any reasonably good rifle, the greatest source of variability is - by a HUGE margin - the shooter.

Krieger/Stolle and a guy who reads catalogs vs. stock Winnie and guy who does his dry-firing and has internalized his wind reads and shooting manuals.

Ask me a tough one.

"The crate isn't important."______________________________Baron von Richtoven

"I am the music."_______________________________________________________Niragasi

"It ain't the car, it's the driver."__________________________Richard Petty

I like when the guys with the $6,000 sticks offer to help me get on the paper. It truly brings me pleasure.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:15:55 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

"We dealt with that in Alaska shootin' Bou off of snowshoes."

What wuz dem Caribou doin' on snowshoes? ;-)

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:19:24 (ZULU)

Wes,

Where is Blodgett? I drive to Corvallis pretty frequently these days, and wonder if we might hook up some Sunday afternoon.

Hope all's well,

Jim

Jim Liles <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:53:28 (ZULU)

CDC: "Krieger/Stolle and a guy who reads catalogs vs. stock Winnie and guy who does his dry-firing and has internalized his wind reads and shooting manuals."

Where does the guy with the Krieger/Stolle who does his dry-firing and has iternalized his wind reads and shooting manuals fall?????

I would say a cut above!!!! and definatly in the winners circle!!!!

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:54:04 (ZULU)

Jaeger, the 17 Squril, 22 hornet shortened and Imp necked to 17cal.

Marty himself built a CZ 452 in 17 HMR but CZ itself has yet to follow his lead. I think he is working on it.

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 05:59:30 (ZULU)

JC,

They wuz a-gittin' away!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 06:09:31 (ZULU)

So long as we're quoting,, and talking racing,, sorta,,

"All the money in the world won't make a pig into a race car,,,,, but it'll make a damn fast pig." author? Some guy who spent to much souping up a Chevette I bet ;))

I don't know about all the truing,, but I like to know it's been done. Will it make my Remichester shoot as good as a Nesika, a Stolle Etc?? Maybe,, but it'll still be a pig. Course,, my pig has a 7-3 record for winning it's class in the shoots it enters,,, so it'd guess it'd be considered "A damn fast pig" ;))

Pete,

We drove Cherokees before we got Sierra's. The heaters broke, the HVAC controls boke, the front diffs broke, the springs wore out, the seats wore out, the door panels wore out, they used a lot of gas and they are extremely hard to get in and out of if you're using the back seat for anything. They get real loose when it's wet and the tires get eaten about every 30K. In their defense,, that I-6 always started and when the when you needed the 4H,, the things could have climbed a tree.

The model you're speaking of doesn't sell here,, must be a euroweenie car. Try and do a US crossref and I'll see if I can look up the softtop costs,, and also a hardtop so you don't actualy freeze to death on the way to work. ;)) Most likely it's the Wrangler. Can you say COLD floorboard? I knew you could......

FatBoy...

George: I re-read my last post and realize that the language is too imprecise to have much real meaning.

Of course a first rate guy with first rate gear has the best chance.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:14:47 (ZULU)

"All the money in the world won't make a pig into a race car,,,,, but it'll make a damn fast pig." author? Some guy who spent to much souping up a Chevette I bet ;))

Had a guy back in the 80's put a hemi in a Gremlin. Boy did that thing get squirly.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:49:40 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a favorite all time Xmas Carol.

White Trash Xmas

http://www.toonedin.com/movies/WhiteTrashXmas.html

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:51:12 (ZULU)

Here is a link to a favorite all time Xmas Carol.

White Trash Xmas

http://www.toonedin.com/movies/WhiteTrashXmas.html

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 13:51:12 (ZULU)

Fellers,

I drive a Durango for a reason. It's what gets the job done for me.

I need ya'lls help for a second. Please write you congressman about the ninth circuit court of appeals ruling in the peoples republic of Kalifornia. Their trying to say the 2nd amendment ain't for us just the states to have a militia.I wrote mine.

Play nice.

festus

festus <festus99506@yahoo.com>
Anchorage, AK, finally snowing - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:13:39 (ZULU)

Chris..

I got out to shoot again last night. Two nice days in a row, very rare out here. I wanted to get my data to 1000yds but it got dark on me and I only made it to 800.

I was discouraged to say the least. After the 200yds groups I thought I really had the load for this rifle. I started at 300yds and put 5 into a sloppy group around 2.5" I then went to 3 shot groups on out to 800yds.

400,500,600yds weren't bad but nothing to brag about. But at 700 and 800 it really opened up just making MOA at 700yds and over MOA at 800yds. The thing that really concerns me is the vertical stringing. I was shooting at paper plates at 600 to 800yds and at 800 I put one in the bottom of the plate one in the top and one a couple of inches above the plate.

All my 260 loads have always had very littly vertical stringing. I don't know if this is just the load or if I need to be looking at something else. I only have 15 142s left and I loaded them last night to hopefully get back out today to see what they do. The only problem is the wind is suppose to blow 10 to 15 today but I still should be able to tell if I get vertical stringing or not. I did have some mirage to contend with at 700 and 800 so maybe this was part of it too but I just have this feeling its not. Got any great ideas??

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:26:00 (ZULU)

....for you guys that are watching the big "Eastern" storm.....I be the dude right in the middle of the huge ICE storm !!!! Waiting for the power to go out at anytime.....

May be a good day to unload "Alice(s)" and sort through my kit(s) !!!! Clean all the scope lenses, douse the triggers....important stuff !!!

George Gardner....you do it right and have my full permission to use all your wisdom while assembling my SC stick !!!!!

JRMoore

(hope the wife remembered to fuel up the generator and put an extra log on the woodstove......BEFORE she left for work !!!!)

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:38:02 (ZULU)

Hang on, what happend to working hours regs? I did a 12 hr night shift, got to go home for 3 hours, back in for a meeting, and now im wondering if it is worth driving home to get 2 hours before i have to start the next 12 hour shift?? can i still think straight? I know this shit happens in airtraffic control, thats why i hate flying. ahhhh, and the range is open this afternoon...

Chris, Mistubishi Pajero, ( its called a Shogun in the UK, or it used to be) its like a 4WD Zero, without bombs or guns('till i get it rigged) apparently a tough little SUV. This one is a soft top, its cheap ( about 50% less than the going price cos i know the guy and he wants to sell), but i know some anti hunting green ass hole will slit the top in no time. bolt on hard top is $1500 here, I'm thinking , buy it, remove winch, part ex it for a hard top version and make money on it. Or put a hard top on it and stay with a car that i know the history of?

Marty the ring size depends on if S&B come up with a 4-16x42 PMII, maybe a 34mm, or i might just say sod them and buy a Zeiss with a 30mm tube, no rush, let you know for definate soon.

sod it, i need me bed, .. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 14:47:57 (ZULU)

Hi guys,

Ken M.- Your'e right about all the NASCAR stuff. I used to work for Hendrick Motorsports, and building restrictor plate engines is hell. THey burn up all kinds of stuff. Cars would definitely be pushing 240mph on the bigger tracks if they could run without the plates.

Lito.- Marty doesn't do the SIMRAD adaptors for the old M40-A1 setup, just so you know. Says it's a lot of weight for two screws to hold, and he's right.

Mike Miller- How did the Marines put the SIMRAD on the M40-A1 anyway? Any ideas where I might be able to get the setup? Not that I need it, just thought it would be cool to have.

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 15:02:35 (ZULU)

Pat,

Verticle stringing? If it was most other guys I'd ask if the parallax was good for up down and as well as side to side. I've seen some scopes recently that will remove one or the other but not both at the same time. BUT,, I'll not as you that mang,,,,,

You're primers may be squirelly. Have you ran this load through the chrono lately?

Oh,, and what's this about 2 non windy days in SoDak? Maybe you hit the sause a bit hard and that the problem ;))) You mustta ment the jeep wasn't rockin' yet huh ;))

Still sub moa at 800 is good IMHO,, but I'm not that good a shot,, so that just be MHO...

Pete,

They don't sell those here. You guys get some cool sheet that we never see. I'd like to get the euro ABT kit and ECU/boost controller for my Passat ;)

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 15:30:18 (ZULU)

Pete,

On the sst's, I shot a 230lbs pig with my 270, using 130gr sst at about 250 yards. Bullet went through both shoulders (almost blowing both front legs off and made mush out of the lungs, exit hole was only 2x the entrance wound size. If the pig would have been kind enough to stand on flat ground she would have dropped in her tracks, instead she flipped over backwards and rolled down to the bottem of the canyon, dead as a doornail when I got down to her. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on anything up to mule deer, big pig size.

Somebody mentioned Corvalis, I used to live there. There is a redhead at the Vet school that is pretty good in the sack, but will stab you in the back as soon as she gets the chance...

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:32:15 (ZULU)

BANDWIDTH ALERT…… BANDWIDTH ALERT…… BANDWIDTH ALERT……

First: Yes...yes...yes... its always the shooter, but Tubb won't show up to a match with a stock Remmy he bought at the big K and try to compete.

Second: If it’s the shooter then why do you guys get so honked on every new caliber that some nut invents???? Could it be because Tubb won with the 6.5 X 284? I bet it wasn’t on a stock action.

I was trying to avoid this but…

Let me break it down:

Pre 64 Winchesters…..Suck! always did, always will hard to clean up but not impossible.

Post 64 Winchesters…..Suck even more!

Savages, an engineering triumph, proved that a gun can be built with very little machining,assembles like a puzzle, aesthetically suck, functionally they are OK, except for the thing they call a trigger.

Mauser, the top of the suck pile! Now before you all get ready to flame me let me step into my Nomex underpants and continue. The Mauser is where it all started, so was the Model T. the Mauser was made from anything that looked, smelled or tasted like steel,

Quality control was at best poor, then you over engineer everything so that when it blows up (shitty ammo) the operator won’t be hurt…badly.

Mausers feel smooth because the case hardening is as hard as glass, good idea? That’s a matter of opinion. Why are Mausers so popular? Its really simple. After WWII many GI’s used their GI bill to go to gunsmithing or machinists school. (Machinists tend to have one of 2 hobbies, guns or steam engines.) Up until very very recently when you went to gunsmithing school you were given a Mauser and told that you hold in you hand the Holy grail of actions. The fact is after WWII you could buy a brand new, only dropped once M98 for as little as $3.00! Don’t believe me? look in a 1950’s American Rifleman magazine. In the 60’s they went up to $20. They were the perfect action to chop, port, polish, overbore, stretch, shorten, whatever! It was the perfect student action, everything needed to be fixed or modified. If you totally scrap it out your out $3-$20 bucks.

Lets see…what else???

Howa, Good copy of a Remmy, bad trigger, ugly bolt shroud.

Nesika, great copy of a Remmy, tight tolerances, too tight for a working gun.

Beretta Mato, copy of a Remmy, Magazine sucks, has a Mauser extractor and a Whinny Safety, discontinued.

Stolle, another great copy of a Remmy, not a gun for the real world, just target shooting.

Sako’s, good guns, kind of an upgraded Remmy, for some reason not used by shooters like us or target shooters just hunters (TRG 21/22-41 not withstanding)

Remington M700 The perfect action…for manufacture! Designed with fast, inexpensive production in mind. Over the years quality has been up and down. Interestingly, if you look at the above list, most of the actions are Remington copies…Hmmmmm what’s that about?

Truing/ accurising /blueprinting, what ever you want to call it will make it a better tool.

Accuracy is nothing more that consistency, and accurising adds that consistency to the rifle.

The above is my opinion, my professional opinion I am an engineer by trade, I have been in the firearms industry professionally for over 20 years, I have designed rifles and actions that are for sale today. I have even designed cartridges that are in production today, I have studied every action that is commercially available and have owned or still own most of them. If you want to know what the best action is, I have to ask what’s it going to be used for. One size does NOT fit all. The best action from a quality/function point of view is probably the M1903A3 Springfield.

Best all around action, the Remmy, downfalls? Yes! Needs an M16 style extractor and the trigger can be a problem. But overall works very well or can be made to work very well.

Last comment, the accuracy International rifles are superb, but heavy, expensive and big.

P.S. I hate the term “Blue printing” it is not one I use, even Remington doesn’t make them to print, I have a print, I know of what I speak.

Ok guys…Flame ON!

Badger out

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:36:35 (ZULU)

.17 Hummer

CZ-USA is selling the .17 HMR as we speak..er write.

There are 2 versions, the CZ 452 American and the CZ 452 Varmint.

These are identical to the same models in .22Win mag sold by CZ.

The Varmints will be available next week from Acusport Inc in Ohio.

Thanks

Marty

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:47:47 (ZULU)

Chris, on the Cherokee...I have a 1996 with many miles on it...some of it off road. I haven't had any of the problems you had, except the HVAC control issue. The 258 cu. / er um 4.0 liter six is a great motor but does burn some fuel. I had an old CJ7 / 258 which I used to pull many a Chevy, Chrysler or Ford out of the muck...sometimes sideways...gotta love 4 low and 33in mudders.

Both the Cherokee and Grand DO NOT take rear impacts as well as other full sized SUVs (Ford, Chevy, Chrysler)... folks in the back seat are at risk. I see a lot of accidents. Don't believe that pile of dung about safety ratings, My field experience is much broader a study and suggest the whole crash test process is VERY misleading. CDC could probably elaborate scientifically on why crashing one SUV into a block of cement does not accurately predict real world outcomes...

Bottom line, look for a frame but some 'give' in a vehicle...Seatbelts are MUCH more important than airbags (i think airbags are "full of hot air" - pun intended)... anti-lock brakes save a lot of folks too.. I've seen a few accidents with older full size Mercedes sedans which held up great in high speed frontal hits...killed everyone inside due to the 100% transmitted impact (all unrestrained).

OK, gun talk.

How does one establish the "target" chamber depth for a specific cartridge loading... For example, if you wanted to specify a match chamber for a custom .308 rifle firing a non-standard round (unusually long or short length to ogive)... I've measured the mag well length and established this as my max cartridge length from base to tip... now I guess I need to subtract the distance from the tip of the projectile to the ogive, but the true ogive is dependant on the dimension of the point on the barreling where the rifling begins (I think). I guess this would be simple if a .308 barrel was actually .308, but it isn't...correct? How does one establish the EXACT ogive on a bullet where it will intersect with a given barrel width? I'm looking for "best technique". The round in question is a VLD type, so loading real close to the lands is required.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:49:06 (ZULU)

Marty,

Good to see you posting mang.

Got a question for ya... Do you think the Remington receivers would benefit from an integral recoil lug? If so,, why don't more companies go to the integral lug?

It would seem that the integral lug takes away one more potential spot for induced error in the machining process. Am I off base here?

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:55:42 (ZULU)

Marty: You don't post often enough. Neither does George Gardner.

That will have to do as my flame.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 16:59:42 (ZULU)

Marty wrote:

"P.S. I hate the term “Blue printing” it is not one I use, even Remington doesn’t make them to print, I have a print, I know of what I speak."

I used to add to my drawings in the space provided for "Spec.": MIL-TFD-41. When asked what that spec. was I'd say, "Make It Like The F#$king Drawing For Once". I got a big kick out of it but the guys from the model shop didn't laugh too much.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 17:01:14 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Our jeeps were 98 cherokees, work fleet vehicles, that got at least 50K per year of everyday abuse. Ever get everything in the back to fly into the rear seat? Go airborne for more than .5 seconds and it all comes forward upon landing ;)) We still have two of them,,, but I much prefer the 1500 series trucks. They pull better and have stood up to the abuse better,, and most importantly,, I can get my fat ass in and out of them. Course,, I'll drive whatever the company wnats to pay for.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 17:22:05 (ZULU)

Chris..

Yea, its REALLY unusual for out here!! I don't hardly know how to shoot. I keep reaching for the windage knob(HA) I have cronographed this load with my other rifles and the SD and ES have always been small and when I shoot it at long range my vertical is always .5 MOA or under. I have found that a bad extreme spread will cause the vertical stringing most of the time.

The only thing different is that I am using some Rem primers instead of Federals because the Rem are to loose in the cases and I hate to waste good primers fire forming cases. Like I said too, I was getting some mirage at 700 and 800 and I guess this could account for some of it.

Its just that for 3 shot groups the 260 has always been under MOA out to a 1000yds, if I do my part, and I have shot in a lot worse mirage than yesterday. It probably could just be my piss poor shooting too.(HA) Thanks for the thoughts!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 17:42:08 (ZULU)

Pete, about the sst's: We Dutchies used the sst's interlock last Scotland and you saw the result of it.

Marco, supriced you want a 6,5 x .284 barrel for your TRG. Getting scared for my old 21 ?

Val

Val Sessink <v.sessink1@chello.nl>
Netherlands - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 18:01:11 (ZULU)

Marty, next tome you're in San Antonio, look me up. I'd like to have a beer with you. I like beer with roasted meat......

Howas----ugly bolt shrouds? Bad triggers? Well, mebbe, but they shoot like nobody's business, right outta da box. I passed up a brand new one at the gun show last weekend. It was .308, had the typical ugly-assed plastic stock (like mine) and priced brand new at $325. Now, I've always believed that pretty is as pretty (and/or cheaply)does. Cops don't get paid a whole lot, and I'm one of the cheapest SOB's around, so if I can get what I got for what I got in it, I think the bolt shroud is just absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, she's got a wart or two, and just a little extra girth in a couple places, but she's got the tightest little......groups I've ever shot. And, after shooting a glock, I couldn't tell if the trigger is bad or not. Better'n my NM AR, and that's no slouch.

C'mon down, I'll let you dance with her, and we'll have that beer.

It's now gthammer@hotmail.com, if you want to expound at length, but I can't seem to get my address and password changed.

Ugly bolt shroud....sheesh.

Howas rule

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 18:28:18 (ZULU)

Chris, my cherokee was a 2.1 diesel( Renault engine from the Espace), cheap to run and reliable until the damn hose went on me, it would still be going if i had noticed. It wasn't very powerfull but it did 35 miles to a UK gallon. It had 80T km on the clock ( but it had had that since the thing stopped counting in 1997) probably had between 350 -400 T KM by the time it packed in.

Marty, well said, thats what i meant with yard stick.

Val nice to see you posting, I thought you guys used Bal Tips, ah i better avoid using the SST's then, you lot tended to miss !!!!!!! ha. Jon B and i where discussing meat dammage with Bal Tips, I had heared that the SST's where a bit harder, what was the dammage like, i can't remember('course you guys are 308 win and he's pushing em faster in the 300WM) I have bought a bunch of Hornady Light mag with SST's for my 30-06, but as yet have only fired a few at a target, I was wondering about how they performed, If they(in 270) exit large ish pigs then they are probably better penetrators than the Interlock, My mate Geoff doesn't get an exit on pigs much bigger than 50Kg using the 270 interlocks, but i guess they expand rapidly at close range as they are still traveling fast.I've got only good things to say about the interlock, (exept the tips get dammaged in the magazine) but i only use it for deer.

Whats wrong with the trigger on the Howa? maybe i had a different one with mine bieng an RWS 89, I thought the rifle was kinda pretty, even the bolt shroud, "Thats and awfully nice rifle to be takin'bear huntin'" is what i was told, he was right to, i ruined the stock.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 19:10:43 (ZULU)

Delurking (learning more being quiet):

Spanish MOD photos of the NK-Yemen maritime intercept at:

http://www.mde.es/mde/fotos/fotos1.htm

SC content:

http://www.mde.es/mde/fotos/fotos2.htm?fotoActId=383&fotoCId=1815

The Babelfish translation of this page:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mde.es%2Fmde%2Ffotos%2Ffotos2.htm%3FfotoActId%3D383%26fotoCId%3D1815&lp=es_en&tt=url

...says the "Tiradores" (translated as gunners) fired on the masts, I guess to clear the way for the fast-rope guys, but it sure looks like they used big guns to do this:

http://www.mde.es/mde/fotos/fotos2.htm?fotoActId=384&fotoCId=1817

I'm just a FNG, so I need to ask: Are those ghillie shorts?

Mike Brogley <mikeb@lsil.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 19:31:11 (ZULU)

Pete, the sst's interlock perform more than good and I didn't miss.( S did, but he has a trg 22 now aswell ( oeha ). You, Jon and me had the same zero, where we testfired the rifle.

Marco testfired the sst's and shot a 9 cm group at 300 meters. That's why we dicided to use them.

The fox, had an exit were I could put my fist in. Both, it's shoulders we gone, while hitting him from a distance at 200 mts, right over the valley, on the slope.

The deers only had an exit about the size of an Euro, but inside everything was shattered. It even hit a rip on the first deer, but the bone had no chance. The second I shot through the spinal at his nek.

Think, according to your 30-06 and Jon's 300 Win, they should perform the same.

Val

Val Sessink <v.sessink1@chello.nl>
Netherlands - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 19:55:55 (ZULU)

Remingtons Rule the roost!!

If you are going to have a new Match barrel installed it like any others has to be trued!! The front of the action as well as the recoil lug MUST be square. The action threads MUST be trued to the action. The recoil lug inside the action MUST be squared. The bolt face and recoil lugs MUST be squared.This would apply to any action that you were having a new match barrel installed on.

I have worked on some of the custom actions and most are true but not all. I do not belive in installing any after market extractor as they cannot be installed in the proper place and I cannot find a reason as the Rem. extractor will pull the rim off of a tightly stuck case and what more can you ask for. I do not belive in using a roughing reamer as I belive you can get an out of square chamber using one. As for Remingtons QA I cannot find any major problems and I work on a lot of them. Most that are being made now are better than they were years ago.

Just mu two cents worth.

Now ducking for cover.

Jerry

Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 20:07:41 (ZULU)

Speaking of "international" SUV's,

What's the Nissan SUV that the UN is using right now? You see it all the time on the news with the weapons inspectors etc. It looks pretty cool and tougher than anything Nissan sells here.

Later,

Rich

RichS. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 20:08:49 (ZULU)

Paul..

I tried to answer you questions on the 260 but it bounced the e.mail back to me. I won the barrel at the D&L shoot so I don't know what the cost would be. I belive it is a 4 groove 1-8 twist. I use the Lapua 308 because I got 1500rds of once fired brass so I don't need to buy any. I have the best accuracy with 37 to 38grs of Varget and can't seat them out as far as I would like sometimes because of the mag on the Remingtons. Most like some jump anyway from what I have found.

MedicJim..

The best way to do it is to send a loaded "Dummy" round to your smith and tell him you want it to touch the rifling with a OAL of that round. Thats what I did with my 308.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 20:32:02 (ZULU)

CDC:

An integral lug would be a great idea, the fewer interfaces the better,

but it would need to be welded on or made from a much larger piece of material.

A Remmy starts out life as a 1 3/8 “ steel bar, then is turned to 1.35”.

Kevin:

MIL-TFD-41, I love it! I feel your pain. I have been on both sides of the drawing.

Mr. Hunt:

Howa’s are great, right out of the box. I loved them back when they were S&W 1500’s and 1700’s. Bolt shroud is still ugly. Sorry

Jerry:

You are right on the extractor, after markets don’t eject well. But if the ejector was moved…its genius! I only suggest an upgrade for odd cal’s and I still don’t like the riveted extractor.

I think the high number pre letter Remmy’s were the best. The E’s sucked and the G’s are much better.

Thanks

All

Badger Six out!

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 20:47:15 (ZULU)

Rick S, that be the Patrol, Nissan Partol, a mate has one and he thinks its great. Mitsubishi has a better quality and reliability record.I have another mate who works for the UN in Eiritrea ( i can spell it but its in Afrika some where) and he says the Toyota landcruisers are a crock of shit, swears by his landrover 110's and the unimog.(and says that the UN is a con racket only out for the benefit of poorer afrikan states and the wallets of fat PC western would be politicians and chairwarmers.

Val, i was only pulling yer plonker, the reason for the misses was buck fever, first time hunt etc, I won't pat you guys on the back often, ( cos you use funny rifle and even funnier scopes) and that 9cm 300m group is 3x the size of what my 30-06 shoots with factory hunting fodder, but for a first time hunt in Scotland you all did pretty well, of course you all had some help from Stuart, but that wasn't a bad thing. Hunting in a 2 man team was certainly fun, remember the doe we came real close too? I would love to hunt with the same guys, + Jon B again next year,( Pressack says hi bye the way) I'd also love to hunt up there in the snow. I wish it was all for free and we could do it once a month. i will certainly never forget the looks on your guys faces after the first successes, it was nice.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:10:04 (ZULU)

Jerry,

Comment and a serious question.

I agree, the fewer tools in the chamber the better. I can tell a difference since switching methods.....ALL.....whatever works for you is fine......there are unquestioned experts here but Im not one of those.

Now the serious question on trued actions being a requirement;

I have a 22-250, Remington 700, that's been rebarreled 2X. Both barrels were Shilen match select, one in 9 twist standard config and the other in 4 groove 8 twist ratchet.

Both barrels shoot into the low 0.2's and high 0.1's with regularity from a bench in good conditions.

Accuracy at longer ranges has been phenominal with both tubes.

1000 yard accuracy .....well.....I won't tell unless someone wants to witness it but it's better than good....and it's consistant.

The action has not been touched, recoil lug not ground, lugs not lapped. Bolt face is untouched. It's nowhere near square. Even has the standard trigger and is in a (bedded) BDL stock Why does it shoot?

I'm frankly a good enough shooter to tell this is a good rifle. It does not follow the conventional wisdom of Things Which Must Be Done and I'm at a loss as to why.

Mike inTexas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:10:50 (ZULU)

Hey Val, good to see you on the Roster. I cant remember seeing any deer shot by you in Scotland ;-).

Nice to hear some feed back about the SSTs. Been tempted for a while now. The Nosler BTs were causing a bit more damage than I would have liked on roe, but were OK on larger species. I have been using factory stuff for a while now, till I get my cases preped. They are Federal 180Gr using the Sierra Pro-Hunter. Man they cause serious damage for shoulder and even chest shots. The importer of Hornady in the UK is also (was also) an importer of Nosler. The woman on the phone said that the vast majority of their customers were going over to Hornady. People were finding the SSTs were just as accurate, better on deer and CHEAPER than the Noslers. They were considering ceasing importing Nosler bullets at that time. If anyone else has experience of the SSTs I would sure appreciate some info. I also have 400, 180Gr Remington Cor-Lokt that I picked up for £5 per hundred. Anyone had much to do with them on small deer out of a 300WM? May be I should just get a smaller gun ;-)

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:18:12 (ZULU)

Pete, sure wished the hunting was a little bit more cheaper. Sure, the snow whil give a new dimension to it. And when you're going, leave some spare for me and Marco too :)

Count me in then, but my next trip is in the Mid-East. Have to visit some old friends from the time I lived there. Has been a while, sinds I've seen them. Guess, I own them a visit and a copple of beers at sun set :).

Jon, we tried the Noslers aswell, but thet didn't perform the accurasy as the sst's did and the second minus was: they were way out of price, compaired to their "promesses".

If you thinking of reloading some: we tried to go up till 98-99% of the max load. Mostly it's working well, as we do target shooting for long distance aswell. The propellent we use, is mainly Vithavouri, which is has a far price and good.

http://www.lapua.com/vihtavuori/

primers: I use Fed and CCI for my 308. There is no difference in shooting them, so what will comes first, take.

Let me know the results.

Val

Val Sessink <v.sessink1@chello.nl>
Netherlands - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:45:52 (ZULU)

Jon, what you should get is.. me some fish and chips and get em in overnite delivery,

I've use the Rem core lockts, they where ok, pretty accurate, i did have one come apart on me once though, maybe it was dammaged or faulty. I can't say enough good about Hornady, thier ammo is the reason i don't hand load, My 30-06 shoots thier light mag hunting ammo( Interlock bullets) as if it is match ammo, its bloody fantastic. Its about as fast as your 300, ( going on the trajectory figures).The interlocks dammage to much meat for your job though, i figure the SST should be a bit better. I would be working my deer with the commission Sako if i was you and using the heavey beast for targets. if you put a picatinny on the Sako you can swap yer NXS from one to the other. ( i was seeing about a torque wrench wasn't i, hmm i need to get a better memory)

Been having an email conversation with Bisley Tiger, he shoots on some of the army ranges that i used to know oh so well, had another memory lane trip, i seem to be doing that a lot lately, is that a sign of age?

Val, what do you wanna go over there for? they don't produce whiskey, have a bunch of suicide bombers playing havock and do they have deer?

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 21:53:32 (ZULU)

Hey Gunners,

I got a question for the Army Sniper types on the DR. Does the Army still use M24 SWS chambered in .308, or did they rebarrel them all in .300WM? It is my understanding that the M24's are all chambered in .308. Sorry to bother you guys with such a silly question, but couldnt think of a faster way to find the answer.

Best Regards,

Bill

William Bledsoe <dc8plumber@aol.com>
outback, ky, USA - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 22:10:24 (ZULU)

Talking of your memory Pete, don't forget that 3.4mm (or was it 3.2mm) reamer you were going to get for me as well as a price for that adjustable torque wrench.

If I only used the big gun for targets it would only see the light of day a couple of times a year. Suppose that would make the barrel last longer though.

Thanks Marty, I've gone all paranoid now. Just looked at my Remmy and its an 'E'. Does that mean I need to get rid of it and get a new one? ;-)

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 22:14:07 (ZULU)

OOOPS !!!!!. see the news, ? DUH !

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 22:38:25 (ZULU)

looks like been a quiet night now.

Jon, Ive got a C, ( its the 30-06.

an E that was a 22.250 but is now a 308.

and another E that was bought as a new action.

believe it or not, i ain't been past the tool suppliers yet, i will make a point of it this weekend.

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 23:02:06 (ZULU)

As long as Marty, Jerry Rice and George Gardner are weighing in: From the end user's point of view, what is a "good" rifle action? What factors should be considered? How should those factors be weighed? Why would one design be "better" than the other? Does anyone care to elaborate on the reasons for their preference for one design over another?

I don't find much practical difference between the Remington and the post '64 Winchester.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 02:09:57 (ZULU)

Is anyone else getting a "runtime error" when trying to load the Emporium, or is it just me?

Thanks,

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:22:36 (ZULU)

Don,

Same thing.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:32:39 (ZULU)

Don, Its not just you, I'm getting it too.

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:35:03 (ZULU)

Gents,

Good day off. Got the .338 Lapua ready to ship, 6.5 X 08 data ready to mail, and a bunch of admin work completed for work. Nice to have that done.

Rifle Actions: "The Germans make the best hunting rifle, the British the best battle rifle, and the Americans the best target rifle". Can't remember who the quote is attributed to, but it discussed the Mauser 98, the Lee-Enfield, and the Springfield.

Mauser '98: Elegant in it's simplicity and strenth. Most folks don't understand all the variations, and there-in lies much of the mis-understanding. The '98 is my absolute favorite for hunting rifles. Nothing feeds as smoothly. I have two FN '98 commercial manufacture large rings and two small ring Mexicans in my safe as I write this.

The Mexican's have been surface ground and re-heat treated to take care of any "softness". GREAT sporter actions for the medium cartridges....308, 7X57, 6.5 X 284 etc. Is really a "medium" length action. Comes in 4 oz. less than the Winchester Featherweight action.

Lee-Enfield: Not controlled feed, but I grew up with a Golden State Arms conversion with a Bishop stock and a 4X scope. Can't tell you how many blacktails fell to the 180 gr Rem Core-Lokt Round nose. Developed a healthy respect for the rifle/action AND the cartridge.

Springfield: Had it's problems, too. "Hard" recievers was just one of them. Still, it was a prince. Originals are becoming harder to find, as many were sporterized.

Unsung hero, IMHO. The 1917 Enfield/Remington 30S. A bit heavy action for the rifle, but hell for stout and that silent rotating safety is a real peach. Have a Rem 30S Special "Express" in 7 X 57 that looks new except for some blue wear. All original, mint bore, and only made 2 years in that caliber and the "express" version.

Great threads, as of late. Let's keep it up.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:18:02 (ZULU)

This is the best place. I love a site where you can talk guns, chicks, and hot rods at the same time!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:29:06 (ZULU)

Hello all. I have been a long time lurker. I've posted once or twice before and now have a question I just have to ask. I am wanting to get a progressive reloader and think I have decided on either the Hornady lnl ap or the dillon 550b. Can any one compare and contrast the two, mostly interested in quality of the machine and quality of the loads it can produce. You can reply to e-mail if you like. Sorry to post such a newbie qestion but I have not been able to find the answer and I figured you guys would know if any body would.

TIA

Andrew

Andrew Stryker <strykforce@riflemen.net>
Waco, TX, formerly known as the land of the free. - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:35:19 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

I'm not a professional 'smith or rifle builder, but I spent some years working under a master tool maker to learn the machine trades, and some more years building professional racing engines, so I'd like to voice my opinion on your 'miracle' rifle.

You said a lot when you mentioned the ability of the shooter, that's for sure. As far as the mechanicals go however, IMHO it could very well be a matter of tolerances, and how they stack up on your particular action. Anything built on an assembly line at high speed and low production costs will be built to certain "acceptable" tolerances, + or - whatever. Sometimes a guy lucks out and recieves a part that just falls into the X-Ring, other times (more often than not) all of the pluses and minuses are stacked the wrong way and the accurizing, truing, or (oh no!) blueprinting operations must be performed if you expect decent performance at all. Sounds like you're an excellent shot that also had the luck of the draw!

Wes,

Like you said about the Remington 30 series rifles. I'm lucky enough to have a 30S Express in .30-'06 and an absolutely NIB 30 Express in .25 Rem! Both rifles untouched by the bubba's hands. The reason that I'm posting this is to add a rare but important old Enfield/Remington to the list. IMHO the very best of the old pre-war Enfield actioned series - the Rem M720. Made only in 1941 because of the war, it's the one that Remington should have continued building when production started back up. Mine is the 1979 SEC DEF Trophy and I'm honored to own it. But my M1910 Mexican small-ring 98 is gonna stay a virgin, at least until I'm taking the long dirt nap;-). You know how us Mauser collectors get when we hear the word "sporterize". But I know that your examples will be put to a fine purpose between you and Steve.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 05:55:07 (ZULU)

Alan, i'd agree with that tollerance theory,

right i'm off for some days off, oh no... more DIY.

looking forward to next week, 2 days hunting, sons birthday (10th) 2 nights hunting, 2 day and 2 night shifts and i'm done for Christmas.

stay safe guys.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 06:10:31 (ZULU)

Joe M.

You just keep on ranting. If you speak hard truth it dosn't really count as a rant.

on rem.

I may have the last good out-of-box Rem. It's a "c"series 700 VS in .308. It loves Fed. match and shoots pretty, damn tight groups out to 800M (yes M). I'm comparing it to a Chandler. Of course the Chandler beats the Rem. but I only mentioned it so you know I've seen GOOD. I bought the VS a few years ago as an economical rifle. I got every cent out of it. Learned on it. I'm afraid to tell you what it wears for optics... I do hit at 800M with it. The new LR, rings and base just moved farther into the future; but thats another story.

Virus alert:

I recieved a "worm" from some bastard. He used Brian K. Sain's Data mined E-mail adress off a rosterfarians drive as a return. I know Brian didn't send it, because he knows that I've hated the Spice Girls since "old Spice" left. The subject was "Spice Girls volcal concert". My Mac's Counter Mesures mearly scoffed at the sniviling little pc worm...

-Lito, Did you get your drive sorted out?

Back from the woods, missed a good pie fight.

Jeager's right about sweet potato!!!

-Critter

web crittenden <webcrittenden@aol.com>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 07:33:02 (ZULU)

Web,

I also receive about 3-4 virus infected messages a day now. I really value my Norton protection! Along with the infected messages I now get about 75 bull crap spam messages a day.

On another note, you have to check out the url below. With some browsers (Internet Explorer) you can just click on my name and check out this movie of an AC130 gunship engaging BGs in Afganistan. I pulled it from Snipershide, Very interesting! No where to hide!

It seems as if the site got overloaded so it is now not good, but I downloaded the movie. (about 5.5Meg file) If somebody really wants it let me know and I will either email it to you, or put it on a cd and mail it to you. Let me know.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 08:01:59 (ZULU)

Alan said, "...Anything built on an assembly line at high speed and low production costs will be built to certain "acceptable" tolerances, + or - whatever...(more often than not) all of the pluses and minuses are stacked the wrong way and the accurizing, truing, or (oh no!) blueprinting operations must be performed if you expect decent performance at all"

There is a lot of high-powered theory and a lot of high-powered consultants that support that theory. W.Edwards Demming won fame, fortune and glory by saying pretty much the same thing. He came up with a cure. It's called "Statistical Process Control" or SPC. The Japanese car manufacturers used it to stomp our big three until Detroit adopted it.

I'll bet Howa uses it.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 13:37:05 (ZULU)

Critter...

Nope. The drive is still locked. I have a little external drive that has been my "tool box" with repair software. I hooked that up, and it's now locked. But at least I can now drag stuff out (so I can save my files :)

The 9600 is now all apart on the kitchen table... took TWO cans of compressed air to get the dust mice out. You sure can collect a lot of dirt running 24/7/365 for 4 years. :((

I'm replacing the drives with one Quantum 10,000 rpm Atlas IV, and three new 10,000 rpm Cheetahs, upgrading to OS 9.2.2, and doing a fresh install of all the apps. One of the drives will be a constant back-up. Then I'll reformat the locked drives... if they won't take a reformat, I'll just chuck them, cuz their old and slow (like the owner ;(.

Also, the "Mac Users Group" meets next Wed night and they have some very smart puppies there.

Speaking of which (and Sinister too)... on Windows machines, you can just right click on an image to make it wallpaper, whether it's a .jpg, .gif, etc... do you know how to make Mac wallpaper out of a .jpg on a Mac??? I have a beautiful sniper photo that I want to put on the Mac Desktop.

CDC...

I know about Demming's production flow approaches to manufacturing which is now showing some flaws in countrys with strong union control of parts of the system... but I never heard of the "SPC" thing. The assumption that all the + and - will cancel is kinda iffy, but how does SPC workie and make it better?

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 13:59:16 (ZULU)

Pablo: "...Demming's...approaches...is now showing some flaws in countrys with strong union control of parts of the system... but I never heard of the "SPC" thing..."

As far as production goes, SPC works fine. Business is more than production. If the other components of the business aren't there, the business has problems. That's particularly true when the whole business culture has some imbedded irrationalities. That's Japan.

"The assumption that all the + and - will cancel is kinda iffy, but how does SPC workie and make it better?"

That assumption is not "iffy." It is wrong. Error accumulates. This isn't a grad course in stats, so I'll not elaborate. SPC works to eliminate the variability in each of the components. That reduces the variability of the entire system.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 14:29:49 (ZULU)

Need alittle advise. Just got a FN Special Police Rifle and a

Leupold 3.5 - 10 Tactical scope. Question is: what kind of rings

and scope base should I use? I was thinking of Badger Ordinance.

Any feedback would be appriciated.

Thanks,

Charlie

Charlie Marshall <redrider555@hotmail.com>
Tulsa, OK, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 14:37:01 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"That assumption is not "iffy." It is wrong. Error accumulates."<

Well... by "iffy" I meant that some will be perfect, some will be poor, and some will be sloppy... the more pieces in the chain, the smaller the precentage of perfect, and the larger percentage of poor and sloppy... I understand that. I went all the way to the 8th grade! ;))

>"SPC works to eliminate the variability in each of the components. That reduces the variability of the entire system."<

Jeez... is that what I missed by not going to the 9th grade. Dang Mang, anyone knows that the smaller the tolerances of the pieces, the better the the fit and quality in the chain. Did we need Demming to teach us that? I think not... the Japanese had been doing finer production work than us, well before Demming came along.

Course, now that we have AIT (arrive in time), and we are dumb enough to have our parts made somewhere else (even just a few of them) all it took was a longshoreman's strike to shut the whole country down and have us loose a billon dollars a day. G-R-E-A-T P-L-A-N-N-I-N-G... I'd love to have a pistol pointed at industry like that :((

AIT works in countries that don't have union problems, and where all (labor and manufacturing) are working towards one goal... something we could learn from the Japanese.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 14:42:16 (ZULU)

Charlie,

Go with the Badger bases and rings! They are the best. I presume that the scope you mentioned, 3.5X10 Tactical, is a one inch tube, if so, you will need to get the 20 MOA base, to get enough elevation to shoot to 1000, if you are planning on shooting that far.

Bobby Whittington <bwhittington@badlandstactical.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 15:14:43 (ZULU)

>>That's particularly true when the whole business culture has some imbedded irrationalities. That's Japan.<<

I agree with CDC... 4 years with Kyocera USA in a production support capacity. The folks I worked with did not impress with their pro-active, statistic driven quality process <snicker>... I believe it was the 20 hour work days, 6 days a week and the unbelievably punitive management structure that led to delivery "just in time". They take that "death before dishonor" thing into the workplace with a vengeance.

Medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 15:25:28 (ZULU)

A couple of weeks ago ALAN (and several others)responded to my question regarding refinishing a Walnut stock on an M1A.

I followed ALAN's advice and am very happy with the results so far. I alternated the 50/50 Tung/Linseed oil mixture with applications of straight Tung / Linseed oil over several days.

The Tung oil left a somewhat tacky finish and the Linseed oil removed the "tackiness" and darkened the wood (as did the mixture). I am very happy with the results / appearance so far. I am now at the most difficult part of the refinishing process, the "wait a week or two" step.

I don't remember the rifle ever looking this good. Makes me want to skip the final step (Major Culvers Magic finish), reassemble it and go shooting.

Thanks again for the advice.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 16:35:19 (ZULU)

Quality Control

My dad was a Quality Control Inspector for Bausch & Lomb here in Califonia before he retired. He was responsible for inspecting precision parts that would be used to build the equipment used in eye surgeries. He commented many times about inspecting parts all week and only being able to pass maybe 2 out of lot. Because of demand for equipment he was over ruled and non-spec parts were then used to assemble the desired equipment to meet delivery dates. Hope I never need eye surgery. STATISTICS BE DAMNED! That's what is wrong now-a-days. Instead of taking the time to build things as they are designed and to the specifications that were called for in the original prints management has decided that if a certain percentage of the product functions and they meet their delivery dates then that is O.K..

Big business has taken the person that has a desire to build a quality product and time managed or kept the necessary equipment out of his hands and simply said work with what you got and build me X number of them in X amount of time or quit.

Thank god for the small businesses that these people have started so they can build the quality product they wanted to build in the first place. Be it engines, guns or computers.

We buy the mass produced products because they fit our wallets better and when we decide that isn't good enough any longer we either take our product to one of these small businesses and have them fix it the way we want or trash it and buy one of their products.

Besides, who whats to buy something they don't have to throw away!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 16:47:41 (ZULU)

Charlie,

You was thinking right; Badger base and rings.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 17:07:05 (ZULU)

Holy smokes!! From pistol-country to knife-country to post-war-industrial-manufacturing-process-control-country in about a week. I think that's a new record.

If anyone is interested in pursuing the latter, I can recommend dozens of books and a few MBA programs. Detroit is still shipping junk, and they know it. That's why I left.

On another topic (pistols) I'm getting the bug to buy another 1911. I'm looking at the Kimber Gold Combat-II. Anyone out there with experience with this, or other, Kimber models? Recommendations?

Thanks!!

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 17:13:50 (ZULU)

Pablo: "...anyone knows that the smaller the tolerances of the pieces, the better the the fit and quality in the chain. Did we need Demming to teach us that?"

That wasn't Deming's contribution. He developed efficient methods of reducing variability. They really do work.

"Japanese had been doing finer production work than us, well before Demming came along."

MacArthur brought Deming to Japan after WWII to bring Japan out of the ashes. It worked.

Byron: "My dad...was responsible for inspecting precision parts... able to pass maybe 2 out of lot...he was over ruled and non-spec parts were then used to assemble... STATISTICS BE DAMNED!"

That's because the production process was screwy. That process needed to be brought under control then refined. Statistics is the most misused word in the English language. It isn't a bunch of hare-brained numbers some media goof plucks from the air. That's numerology and is the realm of bullshit artists. Production engineers use mathematical statistics to improve the manufacturing process.

This really isn't the place to get into this.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 18:41:10 (ZULU)

QC and the consumer,

Since our wonderful automobile industry was brought up in this thread allow me to expand upon that subject. The top bean counters at company HQ know (to a large proportion) how much each cost cutting step is going to cost the company in warranty repairs on any given vehicle. This cost of warranty failure and repair is added into the price that we pay for their products. Studies have long confirmed that it costs the manufacturer far less money to repair a minor defect in the field rather than to reject it on the line, so that's one of the reasons the dealership service departments are always busy. I could literally go into hundreds of examples if you wish me to.

They gamble with peoples lives the same way! Any of you old farts (like me) remember the Ford Pinto exploding fuel tanks? An eighteen dollar (at retail) shield installed on the assembly line would have corrected the problem, but the execs figured out the percentages and found that it would cost the company less money to let them go without, and pay the unlucky consumer's lawsuit claims! The two Firestone tire debacles were more of the same.

All the while that this is going on the cost of labor is being cut to the bone. The US manufacturers and the Germans are building more factories in Mexico because of the cheap labor available. Vehicles built in European factories are being assembeled by "guest workers" from North Africa, the Balkans, southern Italy, Spain, and Portugal, among others. A good friend, an engineer who worked for VW/AUDI was sent to a new plant that was built in Mexico on a two year assignment to improve QC on the assembly line. As he related to me, the entire operation was SOTA, but the workers were out of the Stone Age! So how do you think the Asian manufacturers are faring with their plants in Korea, the Phillipenes, Indonesia and other sub-tropic hell holes? Remember Japanese TV's? Look at the sticker on the back of the Jap brands and you'll see China, Korea, and other Pacific Rim countries - but not Japan!

To sum it up, it's not just Stren bleeding Remington, destroying quality for the sake of profit, it's many of our largest manufacturers that are knowingly producing shoddy goods in exchange for their twelve pieces of silver!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 19:00:44 (ZULU)

George, Jerry, and other 'smiths,

What is the longest OAL that a cartridge can be loaded to and still feed thru the magazine of a short action Win. M70?

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 19:38:53 (ZULU)

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about mass production, but I do a lot of driving involved with work. We use ford ambulances, and for the abuse they get their not too bad, some major problems with the new turbos on the power stroke engines though, and it has taken about 2 months for the ford dealers to get them fixed. I have owned 5 toyota trucks, put a total of over 1 million miles on them and never had 1 problem, not even a knob falling off. The last two trucks I had/have are chevy's, both 2000 year models, both big pieces of shit. They have spent close to the same amount of time in the shop as on the road. I am as patriotic as any american and more than most, but damnit I can't afford to have a truck down for that much time, I will be switching back to toyota trucks soon.

Bob

Robert H <Medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 20:13:42 (ZULU)

Here's production in a nutshell,

Workers make as many parts as they can to meet quota, sometimes they match or beat quota in effort to make bonus. QC rejects everything... Workers get no bonus. So they try again. QC rejects everything.. Management steps in, says, 'Hey, we need to get these products out the door!!', overrides QC, QC refuses to sign off for liability reasons, product goes out the door, workers go on strike for more pay and better hours, company gets sued for millions for faulty 'x', blah blah blah and there you go..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 20:27:15 (ZULU)

Many people here in the roster use Statistical Process Control without even realizing it.

All of you who reload your own rounds (Process), use a chrono to measure the Extreme Spread, and more importantly the Standard Deviation (Statistical), and then use that information to improve your reloading methods (Control) are using SPC.

You can dig deeper into the data you collect, and that's all that Demming does.

For instance, let's say you reload a box of 50, take them to the range, set up the chrono, and fire the first ten rounds in the order they were reloaded to check the quality of your work. All ten shots are within the velocity (target) and extreme spread (tolerance) you consider acceptable for your purposes. However, if you looked at the data, you might notice that each round is 2 feet per second faster than the last. This variability would show up in the standard deviation, but would be very obvious in a trend graph, and it tells you that something is wrong with your process. Maybe your powder measure has, literally, a loose screw, but unless you paid attention to the standard deviation, and a trend graph, you'd never know something was wrong, and you'd never know to fix it.

That's all this SPC stuff is. No black magic, no dead chicken parts being waived, no pocket protector PhD stuff - it's stuff many on the roster do already without ever realizing it.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, - Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 21:22:56 (ZULU)

That's right. Group size is even an idea from statistics. The fancy stuff just builds on these basic ideas.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 21:52:30 (ZULU)

Charlie (the tuna?),

I too have an SPR with a 3.5x10 LR, and I mated them with Marty's exceptional base (20 MOA taper) and MK4 rings:(( as demand was high on the badgers rings at the time. It works very well indeed. Sooner or later I'll slide the MK4s over to the M21 and put badgers on. Interestingly, my scope bottomed out for the 100 yard zero with the current set up. Everything is up from there. Marty's base fits so damned perfectly on the reciever that I could swear he hand lapped it just for me.

This set up is money wisely spent--you will be happy with the badger stuff. You'd be the tuna with great taste goin' with this oft-repeated advice. Premier is my vendor, and their service has been the best as are the prices.

Hey Marty--free commercials mang!

Dick, a plug for you too!

Both deserved as hell--great folks out there!

I'm glad the virus stuff gets zapped by my server. Never got one! But I do have an inside line on some serious african dough. I'd let yuze guyz in on it, but I want it all fer myself! I'm gonna be rich...

Joe M. The Ga-zillionaire

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 22:53:08 (ZULU)

Brew-City Mike Said:

"his variability would show up in the standard deviation, but would be very obvious in a trend graph, and it tells you that something is wrong with your process. Maybe your powder measure has, literally, a loose screw"

If not the powder measure, then I'd have to suspect the operator...

I crack me up too!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 23:04:00 (ZULU)

Don K...

Longest cart for a SA M70 bis about 3.15", but you have to remove the magazine filler.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Winter's here, the creek has friz... I can't figger out where dem kitties is :((, - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 01:10:50 (ZULU)

More script errors with the emporium.....

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
CA, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 01:15:04 (ZULU)

Bandwidth Alert…….Lengthy Ramble Follows……

Remmy Rifles:

Have three. First was a PSS in .308, E68XXXXX. Spent a small fortune on it. Pillar bedded by a good smith into an LOD stock (they’re out of business now, mercifully), Rem. 40X trigger, etc.……no help. Then had a HEAVY 22” Krieger installed by the same smith, who talked me into truing the action. Thank God he did. Action was in dire need of help. Now a half-minute rifle. But I could have had a Chandler for what I spent on that stick. Original Rem. bbl. is now used to break ice on the stock tank.

Second was a .PSS in .223, D68XXXXX. Slapped a Loopy 4.5-14X Tactical on it and went woodchuck hunting. Spectacular. Half-minute rifle with no other work. This is with factory Win. 53 gr. ammo, too. Shooting dimes at 100 yds. is child’s play.

Third is a Chandler .308, 20” Hart bbl., E66XXXXX. This is the Gold Standard, guys. Quarter-minute with the right guy (or gal) on the trigger, sub half-minute with my old eyes behind the scope.

Draw your own conclusions. Sometimes you get a winner out of the box. But only with the ammo it likes. Example: got a bunch of Hornets, and my Ruger #3 will only shoot with Win. SP ammo. The Ruger #1 will only shoot with HP’s. Identical actions. Question of giving the right food to the rifle.

I am a believer in wringing a rifle out with different fodder, then, if it don’t shoot, turn it over to a good smith who can true everything up, re-barrel (probably as important, especially with the Remmy tubes!), and count the money as well-spent. Or just get a good one built from the ground up.

“Blueprinting” etc.

I worked for almost eight years in the Quality and Product Engineering Dept. for a German company that makes “luxury performance sedans.” Major thorn in my side was what is referred to as an “unfavorable stack of tolerances.” If you have an assembly of ten pieces each 10 cm.+/- 1 cm long, and they all have to be laid end-to-end to result in an assembly that is 100 cm +/- 5 cm, it is easy to see that having 10 pieces that are within tolerance (but at the high end) could result in an assembly that is out-of-tolerance.

Forget an easy formula for rifles. Take the stick out and shoot it. If it has a pattern instead of a group, sell it or fix it. If you opt to fix it, don’t do it piecemeal. Turn it over to an expert and do it all at once. All “unfavorable stacks of tolerance” will then be eradicated.

Best yet, get a from-the-ground-up rifle built by one of the aces, and don’t look back. You won’t ever regret it.

Sain,

Thanks for the card! Best to you and yours!

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 02:42:27 (ZULU)

Guys, I haven't sent any infected stuff. But, I been getting from several of the guys here, 'lito, wes, joe. Just ignored 'em. Virus catcher is apparently on the job.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 03:05:03 (ZULU)

Demming......What a friggin joke. I had to take forty hours of that junk 5 years ago, "required" class. As soon as the doofus that was teaching it said that "money is not a motivator" I called bullshit and fell asleep.

Any dumbass could have gone into Japan after WWII and done good. When your production is zero, anything is an improvement.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 03:11:24 (ZULU)

Bolt: Joke, huh? Do you suppose the big three auto-makers are laughing at Toyota, Nissan and Honda?

Give Remington's production to Mazda's production engineers and miracles would happen.

If money alone was an adequate incentive, our public schools would be turning out wave after wave of little Galileos.

SC isn't the forum for this discussion.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 03:14:09 (ZULU)

For those considering a 700pss

Charleston this AM.. Six LE snipers with PSS package rifles with 3.5x10 tactical Leopolds; Fed M 168...

Cold bores at 1" pasters.. Worst was 3/16" off the paster. most hit.

Five shot group..Best was 5/16" worst was 15/16".

Shooter experience ranged from "years" to a couple of months.

Not bad for box guns.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Whackin' white tails in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 03:22:25 (ZULU)

Morning Fellas,

I have a friend talking about getting a new rifle built. He is torn between chambering in 30-06AI or 300WM. Being a WM man I have promoted the later, but he has some pretty good reasons (in his mind) for going the 30-06AI route. Any of you guys have any experience or thoughts on the matter?

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 10:16:13 (ZULU)

CDC, if money isn't a motivator, then I assume you wouldn't mind working for say a buck an hour? You're right, discussion over.

Bolster out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 11:03:41 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito. Talked to the tech boys at Sierra yesterday. I got the OAL length and length of the boattail of their 6.5 142SMK from them. Using this info and knowing how deep I want to seat this bullet, I come up with a cartridge OAL of 3.025. I'm thinking I'm going to be better off using the long action, which will allow me to seat the bullet out further as the throat wears, without having to worry about mag length.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 12:34:11 (ZULU)

Jon, the 300 WM produces more energy at longer distances, compaired to the 30-06.

Tha's my own experience.

Val

Val Sessink <v.sessink1@chello.nl>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 13:00:55 (ZULU)

Bolt: Dumping a bunch of money on a problem often makes the problem worse. eg. "War on poverty." This isn't the place for this discussion.

A few of the gunsmiths, engineers, and mathematicians who visit this site could use SPC to fix Remington's quality problems while driving DOWN costs.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 13:33:02 (ZULU)

********* School bans saying 'Christmas' *********

Since the topics lately have been non-shooting related, I'd thought I'd throw this in:

>>>>>"At a time when Americans of many faiths; and even no faith; gear up to celebrate Christmas this year, a first-grade teacher in Sacramento Co., Calif., says she's been ordered by her principal not to utter the word "Christmas" at school."<<<<<<<

The Speech Police are at it again. This is ridiculous. Ignorance and stupidity gone to seed. Enough by God is ENOUGH!!!! Invade Iraq?! I think we need to re-take Kalifornia.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29977

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 14:38:17 (ZULU)

I have 2 Rem 700P's, A .223 B model and a .308 C model. Both shoot sub MOA out of the box. The only thing I did to them was adjust the triggers,torque the stock screws, and put on Leupolds with Badger bases and rings. As Bruce said, the .223 with 52-53gr SMKS shooting dimes is childs play. The .308 shoots 1/2 MOA out to 500yds with boring regularity if I do my part. I have one target from 800yds that two of the three holes are 2 inches apart. I bought them with the intention of sending them off to be worked on but, after seeing how well they shot I decided to wait until the barrels were shot out. Then sending them off for work.

TonyM

tam308 <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!! - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 14:44:21 (ZULU)

Bolt- You have mail, no attachment.

Seuss <samiam@netrax.net>
Ho Ho Ho, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 14:56:27 (ZULU)

Guys,

Got a small problem. Something wiped out all my Netscape bookmarks this week and I can't find the URL for a device that fits on your scope like another ring and gives an up/down angle readout. Seems Peter Lincoln mentioned it once.

Anyone have the URl or know the name of the company? Would appreciate it.

Remember the TV ad from several years ago that showed a gorilla trying to destroy a Samonite suitcase? My son & I just figured out why they used a gorilla. They didn't dare use a UPS package handler. Never would have believed anyone could destroy a set of Badger rings, but UPS succeded. We ought to send those guys after bin laden. Wouldn't even need any weapons, they could seriously ***k up an anvil barehanded.

My new (to me anyway) Rock 5R M24 barreled 700 action is due at the dealer today. Anyone know where I can find pics and detailed inventory to include manufacturers of the complete system? Guy on Gunbroker has M24 stocks and I plan on getting one of those next week. Maybe Santa will get me some Badger bottom metal, base & rings (I've been fairly good this year).

Lastly, my Grandson is 4 now and I'm looking for a .22 to start him out on. My son, his uncle, started with an excellent Anshutz (sp) kid's .22 which I can't find anymore of. Saw an ad for a CZ kids .22, anyone have any experience with this one? I know CZ good reputation for quality and accuracy but can't find anyone with any experience with this particular rifle.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 15:18:53 (ZULU)

Marty- Thank you ever so much for the opinions on the Remington actions. First new rifle I ever bought for myself was last year-E66XXXX VLS that shoots into 1/2 MOA.

Serious question though, have been looking at the rivetless extractor face. Seems to me that minor machining would allow use of the rivetless extractor in a modified bolt that once housed a riveted extractor. Solve a whole lot of problems and might be a better mousetrap.

Anyone else see the front page pictures of the "Spanish sailors" pointing a Barrett and what looks like a AIW at the abandoned ship?

Kevin- as a toolroom machinist, once received a drawing with all the dimensions in screwy terms- 3 27/64 inches & stuff. After careful study and verification that there was no reason for these wierd dimensions, I called the clod that did the drawing to ask WTFO? Answer: "I though if I did it like that you guys would try harder to hit the dimensions."

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 15:25:10 (ZULU)

Don,

I can't get my URL's from here but the cosine angle indicator has a web page on Snipers Paradise's site. They'll have contact info for sure.

Last AEDC 1K for the year is this Sunday guys. We'll be shooting 20 shoots for record with unlimited sighters at 500, 600 and 1000 yards. Shoot what ya like,, change rifle at different distances if it fancies ya.... If ya would like info and drive direction hit me at my email address.

Bruce,

Good to see you posting,,, we missed ya.. Did ya finally find the cryo'd barrel after that last spell of wind?

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 15:45:43 (ZULU)

Jon B.,

.300WM vs. .30-'06AI? Here's my very biased viewpoint:

1) It is not possible to match or exceed .300WM performance with the .30-'06AI.

2) Resale value of a 'wildcat' chambered rifle is only as good as its momentary popularity, e.g. Did Tubb just win at Perry with it, or is it an obsolete old cartridge that was originally designed to remedy a problem that hasn't existed in decades?

3) Who in the hell wants to fireform brass if they don't have to? Remember that every one of those fireforming shots is another bullet and load of powder running through the bore!

4) Conventional wisdom has it that if the shooter is looking for efficiency in the thirty caliber tactical class rifle the .308Win. is the way to go. To increase range and energy the .300WM gets the nod. One caliber will rarely be all things to all shooters, if ever.

5) Arguments about loading for belted cases are pretty much bullshit.

If you're worried about headspacing on the belt, adjust your dies to headspace on the case shoulder!

6) The myth about the "short" neck on the .300WM is just more gunwriters bullshit. This cartridge hasn't been the top longrange target shooters choice for decades and holds the 1,000yd. worlds record today with all of these "shortcomings".

7) In order to surpass the .300WM in accuracy you'll probably have to go to the .308Win. To surpass it in range capabilities and energy delivered to the target you'll have to look toward the .338Lapua.

8) The .300WM has factory match ammo available over the counter most anywhere. Try that with a wildcat cartridge. There are already match winning generally accepted loads worked up for the WM, all the shooter needs to do is to fine tune them for his rifle. With the AI, he might use up half of his barrel life just finding something that shoots well at all times.

But don't let this tirade discourage anybody who enjoys tilting at windmills or pissing up a rope. After all, when I was all of 17yrs. old I stuffed a 283 Corvette 270hp engine in an MGA roadster! How did it turn out? Imagine ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack;-)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 16:22:01 (ZULU)

Chris, try

http://www.snipertools.com/

Val

Val Sessink <v.sessink1@chello.nl>
Netherlands - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 17:31:02 (ZULU)

Thanks Chris (& Val) for the info on the cosine angle indicator.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 17:46:05 (ZULU)

Alan,

>>>>Imagine ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack;-)<<<

Betcha' that poop could fly :).

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 18:04:11 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info Alan. Knew I could count on a straight answer from one of you guys. My mate is going to meet with the custom smith tomorrow to decide for sure. He seems pretty set on the Ackley. I thought that not having read any raves about it though, that it can't be all that wonderful. Plenty sing the praises of 308s, 300s, 338s and the current starlet, the 6.5 x 264, but not a lot about the '06 Ackley. I shall pass on the info. He already shoots a 7mm Boo-Boo, so I think he gets a kick out of fire forming :-)

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 18:07:01 (ZULU)

"...when I was all of 17yrs. old I stuffed a 283 Corvette 270hp engine in an MGA roadster!"

Shame on you Alan, for placing that Detroit engine under the bonnet of that fine English roadster!

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 18:23:13 (ZULU)

Gents,

Good take on out of the box Remingtons. I have an older PSS in .223 (fast twist barrel) that shoots my pet Nosler 55 BT/Varget load into sub 1/2" groups with boring regularity. Put a Luppie 3.5 X 10 LR Vari-x III Tactical with Badger mounts and rings. Trigger job and I have a excellent varmint rig...still don't really like the PSS stock, though.

Alan, 30/06 AI vs. .300 Win Mag. No comparison for the reasons you noted. Played with one of these a few years back. Could NEVER reach the ballistics touted for the cartridge. Now the .280 AI is another story! The only AI I have now is my .35 Whelan AI. Now there IS an Elk Cartridge!

Going to graveyard shift next week. Sometimes this law enforcement gig is not all it's cracked up to be...:-(

Still, gotta pay my dues as the "newbie"...

Looks like shooting this Sunday if the wind and rain die down...

All for now...duty calls.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 18:51:07 (ZULU)

MK4 said: "Invade Iraq?! I think we need to re-take Kalifornia."

Do I hear an AMEN! You already have some people on the inside just say the word! Somebody famous once said: "A little reveloution every now and then is a good thing."

***Notice*** For those who can't find your ass with both hands, the preceding was a JOKE. (maybe) ***Notice***

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne , Ca, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 19:09:01 (ZULU)

Gents,

Looking for a good, compact tripod that is about 9" max. Something that will take some knocking around.

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 19:17:49 (ZULU)

MK4,

So what's this principal gonna do if the teacher says "Christmas"..?

I love CA, but I swear some of the dumbest, stupidest, sumbitches in the world live there. (The Principal)

I believe there are more "good" people in CA than "bad" people, but Politically Correctness is ruling to roost now as the good guys are afraid to stand up to the whackos. I hope that changes soon.

Rant off.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, AND MAY YOUR NEW YEAR BE FILLED WITH HAPPINESS, AND GOOD FORTUNE!!

Bill

William Bledsoe <dc8plumber@aol.com>
outback, ky, USA - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 21:16:26 (ZULU)

I betcha that this first grade teacher was underestimated by the principal. He probably didn't anticipate this story getting outside the walls of the school (Duh). I hope this teacher has it written all over her black boards the next day and has each kid to recite or tell their favorite story about Christmas (yeah I know, they're first graders). Any retribution on his part would be good grounds for a lawsuit.

I hope that the school and principal is identified....and his office is flooded with anti-PC/pro-first amendment mail...and then he gets fired.

Wonder if they could speak the word "Halloween?"

This PC crap has gone to the outer limits. No longer can you say certain things w/o retribution...jus cuz somebody said so. So what happened to the first amendment?

Its time to take the fight to these jerks.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, December 13, 2002, at 21:29:28 (ZULU)

Allan,big motor,small car,10 pounds shit 5pound bag,thanks for the giggle man,I needed that.

Seems eveyone has been buyin the sierra seconds and cuttin into main line sales now the seconds are real hard to find down here,$30/100 the main line are to damn dear. :((

There was a USMC blackhawk crash in south armerica somewhere,yesterday, some killed,prayers to the families.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Friday, December 13, 2002, at 23:32:05 (ZULU)

Gents,

RFO (request for orders) got cut today at DA with my name on them. I will report in Kuwait on 1 JUN 03. Back that up 6 or 7 weeks for yada-yada classes and issue--and I'm outta here first or second week of April!!! Can you believe that I actually have a job (current) that makes a hardship tour in the middle east sound great? There's some other perks associated here too. This is a REAL good deal for me and my family.

Nicole was accepted and will soon take delivery of her "make a wish" horsey. She called while I was on the road...her broken sentences of joy made this guys' day...

Bob--Ben Franklin said that if memory serves...

Don,

You have champaign taste! I started Blake on a Marlin 25--it got the job done. I liked the sights for teaching...but then, I couldn't afford an Anscsutz back then...so what would I know?

>>I stuffed a 283 Corvette 270hp engine in an MGA roadster! How did it turn out? Imagine ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack;-)<<

Alan--

Did the shit ever hit the fan(belt)?

Now if it was a stick--wouldn't that be "stirring the shit?"

How long did it take to "git yer shit together?"

Bah-dum-bum....chiiiing

I guess I'll keep my day job. Tough crowd...:)))

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 00:30:45 (ZULU)

FatBoy,

Good to be back. Been busier than hell, merging bride's household with mine. Worth it in spades, though.

Found that Blackstarred and cryo'd barrel. Winds did indeed get moderate for NM and blew it about fifty feet.

Next to the stock tank (about 15 feet away) is a 20' wide by 10' high turn-out shed for the cow.

The Remmy barrel missed it, too.

Best to All,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 01:21:09 (ZULU)

Don't do business with Billy Powell of Petal MS

See my post on the Emporium.

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
OP, KS, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 02:51:43 (ZULU)

On retaking California, We could all meet in Las Vegas, drive over. Souldn't take more than a day or two, they don't have many guns ya know. Then I'll spring for the first round back in Vegas.

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 04:30:59 (ZULU)

I owned an MGB once. Bought it and picked it up right off'n the factory floor. I was prouder'n a puppy with two peckers. After two years, I was convinced that they are Great (snicker)Britain's finest lawnmowers. Every part that broke or fell off was of the finest English workmanship, and the electrical system (another snicker) was designed and installed by howler monkeys on crack.....

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 04:48:08 (ZULU)

I had always heard that one of the great deterrents of Japan attempting any kind of invasion of the U.S.of A. after Pearl Harbor was the fact that the average person in this country was very well armed. Since the 'leftist' coast has bragged to no end about their gun laws makes this state look very vulnerable as far as the average armed citizen goes.

I betcha that if a convoy of war ships with gound troops appeared on their shores one day, they'd surrender so fast, it would make the French look good...except for the Californians on this Roster holding the line. (Hold on til us Texans show up ;)))))

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 05:01:46 (ZULU)

Charles,

I had a '79 MGB in Hawaii (Oahu if your anal). Preface with "this is no shit..." There I was, all dressed up in my buck sergeant dress-blue uniform (free from a soldiers' board I won)...headin' to the regimental Ball..smoking a cigar cuz I'm the greatest...when I smelled gas. Lotsa gas...Hey!-- my socks were wet...oh-shiiiiiiiiiiit! I'm covered in gas! Leave it to the Brits to put the fuel pump on the steering column, and as a bonus, the damn thing was junk. Needless to say, the cigar went over the side on H2. But at least I didn't spill my beer. I'd work on it all day saturday, Drive it til it broke on sunday, then wait til the next saturday to repeat the cycle. I traded it for a HD sportster once I realized MGs were meant to perform that way...LOL

Gents,

Believe it or not--COL Aaron Banks is still with us. He celebrated his 100th birthday on NOV 24 out in Kalifornistan. First the jedbergs with the OSS, then the Daddy of modern special forces---this guy's been there, done that...hell, before any of us were even thought of! Happy belated Birthday, sir! Since September 11th, a nation is truly gratefull for your foresight...and the most effective tool we have in our war on terror!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 05:15:19 (ZULU)

MK4, You got it, I think those of us out here on the left coast could hold our own once the liberal pukes ran past us and out of the way, but we would welcome the help. We could do even better if Jerry Rice would equip us with some of his rifles ;).

Serious news: Two pilots killed in army helicopter crash near Ft Rucker, Al. Assuming it was an AH-64, since the news said only 2 people on board. My boss (Ret. Lt Col Dave Reger) flew ah-64's out of rucker for a while.

Been almost 1 year since our helicopter crashed (killed the pilot and a good friend, Ray Watson, Ret W-4)

Just puting these names out there, since it is such a small world and there are a lot of military, ex-military guys in here.

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 06:14:05 (ZULU)

Links to Stories about both recent Helo crashes.

-Click my name below.

Dakota Aviator <dakotaaviator@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 06:27:53 (ZULU)

Anyone ever heard of the CIA Middle East Atlas (1993)?

I needed some maps of the Middle East for a briefing and I couldn't find *exactly* what I wanted on the internet so I scanned in some maps from that atlas.

I have found a few of them on the internet but none that are near the size or resolution that I've put online.

Although its nearly 10 years outdate it will still give you a good idea of whats-what in that region. (Anyone got a newer source?)

Most larger college libraries will have it on hand.

Whos going to Qatar? Joe? I've got a good one of that if you like.

Click my name or cut and paste below:

http://www.pbase.com/dakotaaviator

If anyone gets any use out of that, drop me an email and let me know if it was worth my time to put that up to share it.

Later,

~DA

Two other points:

IrfanView 3.75 is a pretty good fast, simple image viewer that is best of all - FREE.

http://download.com.com/3000-2192-10021962.html?legacy=cnet

BE ADVISED: Some of the files are really large! If you don't have a high-speed connection some files may load slow.

Larger numbers (3000x) are larger files but also have waaaaaay more detail and can be enlarged - unlike most other similar maps on the internet.

~DA

Dakota Aviator <dakotaaviator@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 06:37:19 (ZULU)

Ref: "howler monkeys on crack....."

Oh my God!! What a visual!! I love it and will use it like it was my own. Thanks, that's great.

Ref: 6.5x.284 Project

Year-end bonus will be paid next week and then I'll cut a check to George. I can't wait to see that cannon. Some have complained already that it just ain't fair to have such a long barrel because I won't really be shooting 1,000 yards but only 999. But, like my grand-dad used to say, "Fair is what they hold once a year in Syracuse. If you expect more than that in life you'll be disappointed."

Ref: Next Trip

Right after the SHOT show I'm off again. This time I'm not doubling back. I'm going to keep going West until I end up where I started. It should be a hoot. I've got to visit some folks. I'm under strict orders to, "Stay the hell out of Bangkok." Looks like a thimble collecting trip to me Brian. Thanks for the card.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 09:37:29 (ZULU)

Yo men!!!

Were in Tokyo headed for Hawaii. Hope ya'll are doing well and I'll make sure I soak up some rays for you Yankees up North.

Check back in a few!

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 10:44:40 (ZULU)

"Leave it to the Brits to put the fuel pump on the steering column...". Don't know about the "B", but on the MGA, the fuel pump was located near the rear axle. You could hear it "clicking" when you turned the ignition on and pulled the starter knob. With wood floorboards and removable plexiglass windows, it was a real classic.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 14:15:27 (ZULU)

Perfect day to clean up the deer rifles for storage 'til next year; it's pouring the snow here in the mountains.

Ever have one of those little insignificant projects that upon completion gives great satisfaction? Set out a number of years ago to find good used leather slings/carrying straps for all my wood stocked rifles. Hate paying the price for new ones and, even worse, hate getting them broken in. Prowled the pawn and gun shops, as well as gun shows, looking in all those junk boxes for good used slings and finally came up with enough nice leather slings to meet the goal. Some are military style, some just plain leather carrying straps..Even found a few Brownels' Latigos..Didn't pay more that about $10 for any of them, and, many came with swivels.

A note for those who heat with wood..DON"T move your mother into a house near by with a fireplace..She'll keep you hopping, as recreational wood burning in a fireplace seems to consume more wood than you ever thought possible and, your wood pile will go down like the beavers have been at it..

Not to start handgun country again, but has anyone used/got an ElPaso 1942 Tanker pattern holster?? Thinking about one for my 5" Model 29........

outa here to haul wood.

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Back in the snow zone in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 14:56:21 (ZULU)

Jon,

RE: 30-06AI vs 300WM, I agree with Alan. His response reflects my experience 110%.

For the most part any cartridge that doesn't have a lot of body taper in it's original form will NOT see large gains by going to the AI version. The 06' and 308 family of cartridges are in this group in that their orginal versions already have fairly minimum body tapers. Cartridges such as the 250 Savage and 300 H&H can reap large gains in case capacity by blowing out to AI specs. Many of the gains reported by 06' and 08 family AI users are actually coming at the cost of higher pressures.

We have many .300WM customers that are having extremely happy relationships with this caliber. Superb accuracy and long case life when their dies are set up for that chamber properly.

Also note that the Winchester 180gr Ballistic Silvertip factory load shoots extremely well in many rifles. We have several large agencies that have had their rifles shoot this load better than the Fed GM load with the 190MK. So even though it is not classed as a "match" round, the bullet has a very high BC and the loaded ammo is quite good. This ammo is also widely available in many places. Maybe this would strengthen your arguement toward the original .300WinMag.

Best wishes to you and yours this holiday season.

No wind,

Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, US - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 15:32:05 (ZULU)

Kevin: Ditto on the howler monkeys. Laughed my ass off when I heard that. Sounds like some of my craziness and I wish I would have thought of it.

You can bet I will unashamedly plagerize the hell out of it though.

Oh, and for goodness sake, don't have another damn heart attack. These queers around here used up three days worth of bandwith worrying about your ass on your last trip.

For weeks it was How's Kevin ?, Where's Kevin ?, Anybody heard from Kevin ? Poor Kevin ? ...

Poor Kevin my ass. World traveler with more sniper schools under his belt than most snipers. What price is one small heart attack. Sheesh.

(grinning)

Just kidding bro. Be safe and have a good trip.

Thanks for thinking of my granny. She's cute as hell at 84 and when she gets a new thimble for her collection, she gets all excited and starts speaking French and shit. he he

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 17:30:28 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on the '06 AI fellas. Spoke to mate last night before he set off on the long haul to Scotland to visit the smith. I passed on the views of those who answered and he says he will go with the 300WM. I haven't heard back from him yet, but fingers crossed. I was looking forward to a trip up with him, but have been pretty much house bound since monday with a bug that has given me the squits. Didn't fancy 18 hours in a car with an arse set on hair trigger ;-)

Thanks again fellas.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 21:17:54 (ZULU)

Joe M:

Yeah, I got champagne tastes alright. Problem is it usually winds up being apple cider. <G>

The Anshutz I got my son over 20 years ago was a "Woodchucker". Plain wood no butt plate short heavy barrel. Only cost around $100 then. Shoots like a house afire. Accounted for more squirrel stew than it cost in $.

Looks like I'll go for the kids model "Scout" CZ for the 4 yr. old grandson if I can sneek it past his momma.

The Rock 5R barreled receiver I got off the Emporium. Not new, has 2K rounds through it.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 22:22:13 (ZULU)

Anyone have any comments on RoadRunner versus Bellsouth DSL. I have got to get rid of Mindspring dialup, can't stand it no mo.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 23:29:55 (ZULU)

Get BellSouth... I have had it for 2 years and its performed quite well...

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 23:36:02 (ZULU)

I had a '72 MG Midget. The souls of my Jump boots were taller than the door minus the window. The wipoers stilled worked but I had to start it with a toggle and a push button I rigged up ;)) It was amazing watching me squeeze my 6'2" self into that little car. The last time I drove it the brakes gave out completely and as I was pulling into a parking spot across from the HQ bldg and stopping with the handbrake, the steering columb broke. That's the last POS british car I'll own that doesn't say Cooper on it somewhere...

FatBoy...

Hey, you guys (probably Mike Miller) know this, it's something you would know. Snippers, snippers, all of ya, like scissors!

Where can a guy get some heavy (like ALICE pack heavy) nylon in camo pattern? I figure as much of it as there is out there, there HAS to be a source. Sure would like it for a project I've got going.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 23:57:45 (ZULU)

Markwell:

On burning wood....what kind do you use in your part of the country? Up here in the Cold North Country, right alongside the border to N.D. I usually get ash and elm to burn and some oak. I mix junk wood like box elder with it, but we ain't got no winter this year! No snow, brown grass, 40 degree temps, no fireplace owning inlaws, and giant intact woodpile.

Tried to get 'Lito to send his sister with the green Pinto up here to cut 'n haul wood, but she don't do that! I built a hydraulic log splitter a few years ago using a 5x24 cylinder and 10 horse engine. Will destroy anything made of wood.

On shooting: Anybody ever paid the extra cash for Lapua brass in .223? Quality matters, and I'm just asking because the last batch of Winchester brass seemed awful loose in the primer pockets while seating CCIs. Have a special, joyous Christmas season everyone.

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Valley, MN, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 00:43:53 (ZULU)

Go Figure!

A while back I picked up a Mark 4 M3 (duplex - price was right of course) to sit on my .300 WM. I mounted it on a Badger LA tapered base and Badger rings. Took it to the range sighted it in and found that I couldn't get it adjusted down for a 100 yd zero (shot a few inches high but don't remember exactly how much). Didn't really bother me though because I was actually going to play with it at 1000 yd so no biggie it zeroed there with plenty of elevation to spare. Then Premier Reticles comes out with their Gen 2 Mil-dot so off it went for the upgrade. I get it back and put it back where it belongs and again re-zero at 100 yd. Now I know, it is maxed out of adjustment and shoots 3 ½" high. Again no biggie because I know I can hold the first mil-dot above the cross-hairs and be right on, besides I'm going back to 1000 yd with it again.

Now we come up with the SC rifle, that I got to have as it will be my first custom rifle (not counting a 40X I have). Anyway now it's time to figure out what scope to put on it. At first I was going to buy one of the Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR in either M1 or M3 that George was going to order. Then I found another Mark 4 M3 this time with factory mil-dot and again for the right price so I bought it. Now I like the Gen 2 Mil-dot better then the standard oval dots so I decide to remove the Gen 2, which I will mount on the SC rifle, and replace it with the Mark 4 with oval dots. I set everything up for the switch, get the zero setting on my Bushnell bore sighter and make the switch. When it comes time to set the new scope to the old zero much to my surprise I find that there is enough adjustment to actually get the cross-hairs to the actual 100 yd zero (same spot the first mil-dot was with the other scope mounted).

I guess this just goes to show that like no two guns are the same, no two scopes are the same either.

Go Figure!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 00:50:02 (ZULU)

Guess you Texans are OK after all! (A joke, son.)

We'll take all the help we can get. And some of us already have "Rice-Rifles". (1/2 moa to and including 1000 yds. hee hee)

F'in' SOCIALSITS...

Spud

Dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 01:53:10 (ZULU)

Bolt, If it's available get cable internet. I have dsl at work and cable at home, cable is much better with a lot less down time, and cheaper (at least here).

Heads up to all in the path of this storm that is over N california right now, it's NASTY! 60+mph winds, heavy rain and snow, and supposed to get worse tonight. It's begining to look a lot like Christmas!

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
Ne, Ca, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 02:37:06 (ZULU)

Jerry S. Here in the Alleghenies we burn mostly oak and some locust. Once in a while I'll also get in a batch of Sycamore [sp?] but it can be a b#^*h to split. What's the PD situation up your way?? Shot some around Medora a few years ago but never really had a lot of time to check out ND thoroughly for dogs.

Jaeger...Call John Carver at Eagle Industries about material..I bought some netting for a ghilli from him quite a while ago. He's a great guy and will probably help you out.

Completed final deer processing this PM.. Have had enough of that for another year..Brock, my son, informed me he can still kill 4 more and usually I wish him well, but we've got enough meat!

No input on the ElPaso 1942 Tanker holster???????

outa here again

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 02:57:31 (ZULU)

Markwell:

The oak is about the best fuel I could ever expect to find here. We don't have any Pdogs locally. The Red River Valley is agriculture black dirt land, read whitetail country. Medora is the western part of ND, and I'm near the eastern border of ND. This is sugarbeet and soybean and wheat country.....some corn.....so it grows big'uns.

Ya have to stick with western ND or go to SoDak....JR country for Pdogs. We used to pot jackrabbits with varmint rifles, but they're cycled down and out now. Fox too. I raised some butcher chickens a few years back and you could set your clock by the expected time for the fox to make their daily appearance for a chicken sandwich. We had an 11 o'clock fox and a 2 o'clock one, and there was another that came at about 4......but not for long. I always kept a 12 gauge loaded with Winchester Double XX and #4s. Did that load ever reach out and nail them. I shot another with a .22 at 60 yards and he dropped the chicken in his mouth just looking at it like it might have nipped him. Picked it up and I shot him again through the lungs. After going through that about five times, he trotted off, and I found him dead in the grass. Gave up on the .22 after that one.

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Valley, MN, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 04:30:30 (ZULU)

Dave Barry's theory of airport security, or, Don't you feel safer with government union workers in charge?

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/dave_barry/4681926.htm

One of my brothers did a bunch of years in a highly technical job in the Navy. That experience led him to believe that the only reason we survive is that our enemies are even more f****d up than we are.

Markwell: Women and firewood. I worked for an outfitter and I was one of the guys who stocked the wood-pile. When the wives came into camp they would keep EVERY TENT IN CAMP 95 degrees 24 hours a day!!

We'd come back into camp, take a look at our precious wood-pile and groan.

They'd look real proud of themselves for making the place cozy for the men-folk.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 05:17:23 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Go with RoadRunner.

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 06:30:13 (ZULU)

Byron,

MK4's and tapered bases - sometimes they'll zero at 100yds., sometimes they won't. You pays yo' moneys an' ya takes yo' chances!

So far I've been lucky, but I know it won't last. I'm bound to get bit on the butt sooner or later by this combination. Just another case of those tolerances stacking one way or the other, I guess.

Terry Cross,

Sometimes I feel like I'm preaching to the choir about these .300WM's, but they're worth it. Back in the mid 1970's I lost a contest and got to go stay in Salt Lake City for two years;-) one of the few good things that happened to me during my stay was that I got to meet Parker Ackley and had several long conversations with him over a time period of several months. When I questioned him about his .30-'06 AI cartridge he explained that he designed before WWII, when there were damn few affordable rifles available for the .300 H&H, and he was trying to approach magnum performance with a cartridge that would feed through a standard Mauser or 1903 action. He said that he really couldn't see much use for it any more, and that his favorite cartridges out of his Improved series were the 40 degree versions of the .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, and 7x57. He also related that in his opinion improving the .220 Swift or the .22-250 with a 40 degree shoulder was good as a mechanical improvement (for case life, etc.) but the improvements to the cases were negated by the shortened barrel life of these already overbore cartridges, since when you increase case capacity you must increase the powder charge over that of the original cartridge to equal the MV of the original case. Very interesting man, I was honored to meet and talk with him. BTW, that M40A1 that you built for me keeps getting better every time I shoot it.

Regards,

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 06:40:22 (ZULU)

Hello ! I was looking at Snipersparadise web page, the topic was pushfeed versus controlled feed. I would like to know what you guys think about the difference between the two different methods? I have a Winchester with a "CLAW":):( feed action. I would like to know the -(pros and cons) between the two and the advantages?

Thanks for your time,

BearMan

BearMan <Chad@webescape.com>
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 07:38:58 (ZULU)

Jerry S...Have shot a bunch in SD over the years as well as Wy.{Thunder Basin} before the plague hit there a couple of years back. Recently have been going to Mt. and have found some excellent shooting. Never hurts to ask about potential new areas.

We also had a chicken problem a couple of years ago..Couldn't figure out for the life of me what was devestating my wifes' flock 'til one day my sons Australian Shephard pup came down off the hill from the chicken house with one in his mouth! Shortly there after Old Lucky got hit by a car and that was the end of that!

CDC..When the Queen and I were working in WY. in Oct. for an outfitter in the Hoback country I loved to see the guides take the hunters out for the entire day. No mid day naps that way and those little sheep herder stoves were cold all day.. I was lucky, my wife was the only woman in camp for the whole month and she spent most of the day in the cook tent or out riding, hiking etc.. Only had one client who really hammered the wood pile; burned the stove all night..Don't know when he got any sleep as he obviously spent the whole night stuffing wood in the stove.

Looks like it will be sunny and warm today..Guess I'll go cut the two pines that came down across the upper road during the big ice storm Wed. so I can get up to the bench.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 13:47:47 (ZULU)

Markwell, if you're refering to the 1942 Tanker Holster made by El Paso Saddelry in El Paso,Texas I have this to say. I've never had one of the Tanker Holsters BUT over the years having lived in and around El Paso I've had a number of their holsters. All top quality, well made and plain old good working/looking leather!! Some of the best holsters made! Still HAND-CRAFTED by REAL PEOPLE in "wonderful" downtown El Paso!

Hope this helped!

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 13:55:16 (ZULU)

Alternative Savage Stock:

While doing some net surfing I ran across a page that might interest those with Savage rifles looking for a better stock. They have a couple of different options but there tactical model has a verticle grip, dual from studs, and options for adjustible check piece and LOP. You might want to visit, "http://www.turnerprecision.ca/index.htm".

Back to surfing!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 14:01:59 (ZULU)

Sarge...Have several ElPaso Tom Threepersons rigs for asstd. handguns..Elpasos' quality IS top notch, as you say..Thinking of the Tanker for use while hunting as a regular shoulder rig gets in the way , for me, when carrying a pack.. Might be one in my stocking for Christmas it seems..

Outa here again; gotta go cut those trees.

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 14:35:11 (ZULU)

YO, WEBMASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was trying to scroll down on the roster to find my last posting when the screen showed a error message that the server had timed me out. "Action server pages error-ASP 0113". 'Twas the site server not mine. Would you please create a longer time window ?????????????????? Not everyone here is on ethernet.

Thank you, we now return you to your regularly scheduled B&G.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 14:45:08 (ZULU)

Long Range Shooting Simulation Version 2:

http://www.shooterready.com/

For those that are aware, I wasn't, there is a new version out. It now has 3 calibers, .308 - 175 gr., .338 - 250 gr. (based on Black Hills load, and .50 cal. - unknown didn't see listed. There are 3 different target sizes and ranges out to 2000 yd. 10x and 20x scope set up with M1 dials. 300 different ranging senarios. The site didn't indicate but I am assuming that movers are there as well since it was included in version 1.

Looks like it is time to upgrade!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 15:18:04 (ZULU)

>>>>>>> Guess you Texans are OK after all! <<<<<<

My great uncle was a fella by the name of Ben Milam. He led a force of Texicans on a Mexican held town by the name of San Antonio de la Bexar in 1836 (or somewhere about then). He took the town but was killed at the last of the battle supposedly by the last shot fired. It was right after that the Texicans occupied a place called....the Alamo.

I guess that's why I have this tendency to go looking for a fight when it comes to truth, justice and the American way sort of thing.

BKS knows what I'm talking about ;))

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 18:24:44 (ZULU)

Well folks the Missouri Land is a done deal......Look out Spring Gobblers......Beautiful place with a year round spring and creek right through the middle of it......Since when is a holstered pistol unacceptable range manners? Visited the range up by the new place, and the guy said "You can't use a holster here, use the table only.".......Hmmmmm guess I'm spoiled by having shot around here for so long.....the freedom of solitary practice.......Women and wood....there's better ways for a woman to keep a man warm in his tent than with wood,FIREwood that is....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 19:32:36 (ZULU)

Alan,

It must have been me then because I thought the general consensus was that a Mark 4 M3 would not zero at 100 yd when on a tapered base. I was really surprised when this one did.

'Lito,

Hope your computer repairs are progressing O.K.

Damn weather man said it was going to be weather only fit for ducks and instead it's only overcast and 70 degrees. I knew I shouldn't have made plans that fit a wet weekend.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 20:00:52 (ZULU)

Mark,

Welcome to the state of Misery--oops! Missouri. Sounds as if your range guys are rather touchy. It really isn't a bad place to live. We get at least two nice days a year whether we need them or not. If you don't like the weather, wait five minutes and it will get worse. ;o)

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The almost balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 21:12:03 (ZULU)

Mark Smith wrote:

Since when is a holstered pistol unacceptable range manners? Visited the range up by the new place, and the guy said "You can't use a holster here, use the table only.".......

That reminds me of the time I went to shoot a Service Rifle Match. I had my P-35 in condition one where it belongs in a Milt Sparks Roadrunner holster riding over my right kidney. We had just finished the rapid fire standing to sitting when a guy at the next firing point looks at me like he just saw a snake.

He gasps, "Jesus, is that thing loaded!"

I couldn't help myself I laughed at his expression and said, "Hell yes, it ain't no good to me unloaded."

That's when all hell broke loose. The guy flagged down a range safety guy and started to rant about how he wasn't going to shoot next to someone that had a loaded pistol, while there we both were with M1 rifles going off all around us. The profound sillyness of the situation had me laughing. The safety guy comes to me shaking his head and asked if I'd mind awfully putting "that thing" away somewhere until the match was over.

My bet is that guy that complained went home and told his mom all about that bad man with a pistol.

FWIW, I now wear something to conceal my handgun even at the range. I don't want to offend anyone.......geeesh.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 21:16:30 (ZULU)

Kevin, "geeesh"......I know what you mean. Now I remember why I quit going to the range as often........ Always stuck between a pussy and a nut ;).....The range was fully baffled, and at the 15 yd. line was shot to hell, though not by holstered pistols I'd bet.......Guess I'll be taking my rack of plates and the backstop with me when I move....Spoiled on Freedom.....

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 21:40:08 (ZULU)

Kevin

Don't know the origins of the story but always liked it.

Guy is carrying a 1911 in condition 1.

Another guy asks " do you know your pistol's cocked?"

Response; "yep."

"Aint that dangerous?"

Response; "You damn betcha!"

Holster tale:

Hadn't shot an IPSC match for quite some time and went to one in Va. a few years back..Wore my old Thad Rybka Rhodesian holster. Between strings on one stage I did a mag change in the holster and a hand descended on my shoulder. Turned my head toward the RO who is informing me that I can't put a mag in my gun while it's in the holster because when I seat the mag the gun might fall out! The Rhodesian is about as secure a holster as you'll find. I Look at this guys dipstick,cutaway, erector set, rig and wonder how the f#*+^#g pistol stays in place.

Told him that My gun would stay put no matter what I did, unlike his, in that POS excuse for a holster that looked like some kids transformer toy wrapped around a pretty poor excuse for a practical pistol!! It was downhill from there!

Indoor range in Harrisonburg, Va. advertised a combat pistol match several years ago..One of the rules was "no holsters allowed". Go Figure!

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Thinkin' of Spring in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 22:10:36 (ZULU)

JOE M,

A VICTORY!!! It is so rare that the 5-sided printer spits out good paper. Congratulations all around!

JAEGER'

Try " therainshed.com" for nylon. Unless you need the slickness of 12oz. packcloth(ie ALICE body) consider 8oz cordura. just as tough. If you need a small qty . of either, hit me off line and I'll see if I've got enough to share.

Oh Yeah BEWARE: there are at least 2 "woodland" prints around. one is 1984 pattern (large blotch) which is current. The other is actually 1960's vintage ERDL printed in current color scheme. Rainshed only carries the '84 which is best IMHO. There are also about 70 thirdworld knockoffs that don't even index. Designed for Chairborne sales. Cheap=Cheap.

If any one sees a couple of yards of the new MARPAT printed on about anything other than paper, let me know. I'm a sceptic at the moment but I want to test it.

Latter'

-Critter

web crittenden <webcrittenden@aol.com>
- Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 22:51:09 (ZULU)

Rummy is running his own "Phoenix Program." At first blush is sounds like a good idea, but not everyone is happy.

http://drudgereport.com/flash1.htm

Wrap up on the DC murders:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55650-2002Dec14.html

Back to work.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 16, 2002, at 00:03:14 (ZULU)

ALL:

I have been looking for a new muzzleloader and have decided on a T/C Encore .50 Mag., I realy like the design and feel.

Now for my real question: If I decided to get a rifle barrel for it will this thing shoot with any accuracy or is this a 1.5 to 2 moa rifle?

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 01:07:53 (ZULU)

******** Gore Won't Run in 2004 ***********

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/15/politics/main533080.shtml

"I've decided that I will not be a candidate for president in 2004," Gore told Lesley Stahl. "I personally have the energy and drive and ambition to make another campaign, but I don't think that it's the right thing for me to do."

"I want to contribute to ending the current administration."

Yep, that says it all. He never said he wanted to help our country...just help end the current administration. A real patriot to the DNC. The country BE DAMNED! Don't you love a sore Democrapic LOSER.

Anybody that missed 'Saturday Night Live' missed some real good puke material. Sheesh.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 03:04:02 (ZULU)

Critter

Tried to hit you off line My computer won't recogized your email address.

FYI

GI Joe Surplus in San Diego has Marpat laundry bags 36" X 36" for sale $4.95 each this real Marpat issue including the USMC Emblem in the pattern. Same thought about trying the new pattern out. I purchased two in desert pattern to try. they have both patterns.

USMC Air Station Mirmar San Diego will have the desert Issue aviable in late Jan 03 they have the woodland Marpat now $30 each for BDU trousers and jackets USMCRD won't sell to anyone except pers stationed at USMCRD

The desert marpat appears to be working in the mojave desert I. E. the Las Vegas Area, but I will wait until summer to make a finial decision.

I'm looking for a Mil Spec tan med alice pack I had one several years ago Loaned it to somneone it never came back

Semper FI

bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Monday, December 16, 2002, at 03:56:16 (ZULU)

Howa fans,

This is probably old news, but I'll post it anyway 'cause I can't remember seeing it here before! Remember the old Weatherby Vanguard, which was a Howa rifle with Weatherbys' name stamped on it?

It is available at WallyWorld sporting goods departments in an exclusive run for Wal Mart by Howa through license from Weatherby. The guy at the counter told me that they come in sporter or varmint barrels, and synthetic or wood stocks. If the store doesn't stock the one you want they can order it from their warehouse.

Byron,

Some of us found that the MK4 scopes will zero at 100yds. when using a 20MOA tapered base on some combination of rifle, scope, and base but I don't think that anyone can predict it for certain.

For example, when I ordered my M40A1 clone from Terry Cross I specified an IBA (Chandler) mount which is only available in a 20MOA taper, and a MK4 M3 MilDot scope. I had a couple of conversations with 'lito off site, then spoke to Garth Kendig at Leupold, and found that Terry had also been speaking with Garth about the feasibility of this combination. The consensus was to try it, because nobody knew for sure if it would zero at 100 or not. It would all depend on the precise dimensions of the scope base, the reciever, and the +/- tolerances allowed in the production of the individual scope used. I gave instructions to go ahead and try it because I already had a 'Plan B' worked out, and to make a long story short it worked just fine, leaving me 6MOA remaining on the elevation adjustment to go down from a 100yd zero! If you'll search the archives I printed a rundown of clicks needed from bottom stop through 100yd. zero and up to the upper stop (past the 1000yd. mark) for Chris (Fatboy). I'm using the .30-'06 dial for my .308 175SMK load.

I'm not 100% positive, but I don't think that anyone can predict for certain if this combination (MK4 and 20MOA base) will zero at 100yds. until they try it. That's what I mean about the tolerances stacking up! So don't feel like the Lone Ranger on this one;-)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 05:28:57 (ZULU)

Gents,

Critter asked about the Rainshed having MARPAT camo pattern material.

Will check. It's in Corvallis, Oregon and I go through there every day on my way to work. Will report back in, later.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 07:17:43 (ZULU)

Guys i whitnessed a negligent discharge yesterday (and my friggin ears are still ringing) it was caused by absolute stupidity on the part of the owner( who shall remain nameless, but i am ashamed to say he is a friend of mine) of the rifle and that was on 2 counts. Firstly the dumb shit went hunting yesterday morning, came back from the woods and didn't bother his lazy arse to unload the damn rifle, left it stood muzzle up in the workshop gun rack, I am busy fitting a recoil pad to a Blaser double rifle and threading a barrel in the same work shop. The son of the owner of the rifle comes in and says hi. I'm working away at the lathe , paying particular attention to the job, this damn teenager is in the workshop and wanders around the other side deciding to show his 2 mates his dads rifle, he opens the bolt and removes the round, but forgot about emptying the damn magazine, closes the bolt and pulls the friggin trigger. "BOOM" great a 308 failsafe burries itself in the damn workshop wall. As soon as i had worked out if there where any wounded,( thank god there weren't) I hit the friggin'roof, tore a strip of the both of them, now i was in mega rant mode, (is it a wonder) jesus christ...

They say farmiliarity breeds contempt, well it fits in this case.

To all reading this, If you haven't had any firearms safety instruction.. get some.. If you own guns and have kids, make sure you get your kids educated about firearms safety, because sure enough, one day the opertunity will arise where inquiring minds will become fiddling fingers. Keep your firearms out of reach of people who do not know what they are doing with them, or should not have access to them. Be safe !

Was sorely tempted this morning to bring up the front page of sniper country and turn the monitor sideways, we where bieng filmed for some documentarty on Canadian TV, some stuf about space debris. Though better of it , didn't want to get in bother for surfin'

About to go highseat building again, Tonight will be an all nighter up the tree after a pig, and tommorow is ( as i am luckily on nights) another driven boar shoot,, I'll post the result tommorow. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 13:37:44 (ZULU)

Kevin, knwo the feeling. Awhile back I had 5 or 6 M4's to test fire before putting into inventory. Went to a local range and explained what I needed to do, fire full auto etc. No one else was there, it was a day they set aside for LE only. Guys said sure but as I walked away he asked if I was carrying a concealed weapon. I was in my Detective car and suit so I said yes. He replied they did not allow any concealed weapons on the range. Here I am standing with 6 full auto M4's and he is worried about a 1911 in a holster. Go figure.

On another note. Afghanistan trip. Contract came through but for only one of my guys. He is off in Jan for a few months. My partners and I are going for a few weeks then but only to work on some more contracts over there. Anyone know of any comapnies needing good security over there let me know, we have some of the best guiys around, inccluding old Jefe.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 15:28:08 (ZULU)

CIA hit list...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=2&u=/nyt/20021215/ts_nyt/bush_has_widened_authority_of_c_i_a__to_kill_terrorists

Caison

Tim Sarchett <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
dela-where?, - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 16:03:42 (ZULU)

PeteL,

No matter what, we all have to keep on beating up everyone about safety--it is never ending.

Show Nicole (3 yrs) any firearm and ask her what it is and she'll respond, "a loaded gun, be careful cuz it can be dangerous and you can't play with it..."

I am usually calm in the face of fury and rarely lose my temper...but careless handling of a firearm by a soldier will get me going fasterer than anything else...

Blake can clear every firearm in the house, and most belt-fed in the inventory! He came to work this weekend and played RSO at the "Engagement Simulator Device" we ran for some high schoolers this weekend. I caught him bitching out some parent for leaving the weapon on "fire" -- priceless.

Unfortunately, as you discovered, not all folks are as serious as they should be. It makes us all look bad to the uninformed, so it is on us to keep kicking ass on the careless.

PS-reread my post--it was the fuel "filter casing"-- not the pump-- in the passenger compartment of that MGB! Who thunk that one up???

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, December 16, 2002, at 17:56:30 (ZULU)

Bolt:

You got mail. No attachments

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 19:48:27 (ZULU)

Mike Miller,

You have email, no attachments.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, US - Monday, December 16, 2002, at 20:50:36 (ZULU)

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