I saw a 20 minute piece on TV about the Neutria hunts down there, and it was real tempting to move down there, and become a vollenteer night shift police Sharpshooter (HA!)... they were using canned 10/22s and a canned bolt gun for the far shots... seems the only opposition they had was P.E.T.A.  It was a friggin' riot!

Sir Wesley... I saw a used .22 cal 40x target riffle with Redfield target sights, in a gun shop last week... they want lunch money for it cus the wood stock looks crappy (seems that nobody knows how to refinish a stock anymore)... gonna put a deposit on it this friday... got a 6x Lupita with mildots, sittin' around waitin' for a home :)))

Ken... >"...crawl out here in the Major's garden and get into a good hide position"<.

That Cat only has 8 lives left;)), go git 'em.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 09:19:48 (ZULU)

ALL:  Got to speak with Bruce Robinson yesterday.  What a gentleman.  I always feel inferior speaking with guys like that.  Guess it's due to my Cajun, redneck, white trash, ex-poaching, Harley riding upbringing.  Oh well, he humored me and we talked for a while.  Thanks Bruce, enjoyed the visit.  Will send some business soon.

Hey, isn't the HS Precision man on this site ?  Got some questions about the stocks, old and new, bedding blocks, full length, partial length, etc. and which are which, etc.  Any info appreciated.  Where I am going with this is:  Which stocks have sling swivel studs screwed into metal (other than just the fiberglass) and which ones do not ?  My computer seems to have a problem letting me check the archives.

NUTRIA:  Went out in the marsh a year ago with my sniper partner.  The boy is a SERIOUS duck hunter. Watching him shoot an 870 is like attending a redneck ballet, magical.  Each member of his family owns an air boat (He's Cajun too).  The nutria were taking over his huntin' spots.  He said he'd drive if I shot.  What a deal !  Brought a Rem 541 T w/ Leup 6.5-20 EFR.  Shooting rats as fast as I could run the bolt.  Left hand, right hand, behind the back, all from a moving air boat, nothing but net.  Took a minute to get used to it all.  Fast paced but a friggin' blast ! Just find a little brown with a crosshair and break the shot.  No time to breath and all that marksmanship stuff.  Not that I am good or nothing but I rarely missed. Funny how all the basics can go seemingly on autopilot.

I guess I see how the old trick shooters could do what they did.  I just got a little taste of it in the marsh.  One of the funnest times of my life.  

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:04:44 (ZULU)

I'd be hesitant at using acetone down the bore--not because of any damage to the bore, but because it MAY eat through anything plastic it comes in contact with, including the handle of your cleaning rod, pistol grip, etc. Not quite sure what the point of it would be anyway, unless it's to remove the last vestiges of grease/oil/moly(?). Anyone else correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it will dissolve copper.

Bruce:  <<(Only thing that makes me sicker than John Walker is to see a fine old Parker or Winchester dbl. bbl. shotgun defiled by a recoil pad!)>> Wasn't it Roy Dunlap (or someone even older) who said that a recoil pad on a fine gun looked like someone in a tux wearing rubber boots? ;)

Wes: Only problem with the "cheap .22" idea is that after taking all the s**t for buying it in the first place, the "other half" winds up liberating it for her own personal use! Like 'lito, I try to find the bargain, then squirrel away the lunch funds. Too bad she knows the combo to the gun vault.;))

Caison: re your post about the archaic ranging guesstimation--had a pair of ancient brass-bodied binocs with a ranging reticle one of my forebears "requisitioned" from an arty unit in the Great War. Seems he commanded a MG company, and used them extensively to range the "Boche". So they were around, but don't know if they were officially issued to anyone other than arty. The reticle was a primitive thing, marked in yards; don't know what the height/width of the targeting reference was, but I recall it didn't work out in mils.

Nutria hunts? Hell, we used to pop 'em across the dam from the swimmin' hole. Darn things were vicious...they've got HUGE fangs...just like Python's Bunny Rabbit! ;)))

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:04:47 (ZULU)

What the hell is a nutria?  Sounds like some sorta fiber bar sold by one of those multi-level nutritional supplement companies.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:52:16 (ZULU)

http://www.pwrc.nbs.gov/resshow/nutria.htm

Here's a relevant quote:

"Nutria are large (8-18lb) beaver-like rodents introduced from South America. They have become overpopulated because of the decline in the fur industry and a lack of any other apparent market for the animals."

There are pictures on that website.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:55:05 (ZULU)

Your talkin about hunting Neutria from an air boat (I'm REAL jelouse!!) brought to mind when I was yound, me and a friend rode shotgun on a manure spreader, and damn near died laughin'... a local farmer was spring seeding his alpha fields, and had a manure truck that would throw a mix of cow poop, and seed, but the flocks of starlings (a local trash bird), would follow the truck and eat more than 50% of the seed.

So he worked out a deal/trade with us to protect his seedin' operation... he set up a 2"x8" plank across the back of the manure truck, and we sat on the plank facing backwards... I had a 28ga Charles Daley over and under, and my friend had a 20ga Rem 1100, and we each brought a full case of ammo.

When that truck went across the fields, starlings would follow, swoopin' an' divin' all over the place.  It made skeet shootin' look like child's play!  It was the first time I saw smoke coming off that 28 ga barrel... We went through both cases of ammo in one day, and damn near died laughing!  Took us three days to get to smellin' OK!

Now for the other side of the deal... in exchange for our "sacrifice" of riding shotgun on his truck (it was really hell, but somebody had to do it ;), we got full access to all his fields for 'chuck shooting.

It's one of my best memories... other than the "great bullfrog safari" which was also a hoot ;)))

TBD... they didn't "get over populated" because of the declining fur market... the Neutria were just dumped into the swamps from the Neutria farms in Florida, and Louisiana in the late 50's during a "booming fur market"... when women discovered that the prised $15,000 Neutria coats were not from some exotic aminal like Russian Black Sable, or mink, but from a South American RAT!

This link from your link:

http://www.pwrc.nbs.gov/FACTSHTS/FACT1.PDF

... shows how much damage they will do to a swamp, or marsh

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 14:30:38 (ZULU)

"... Success will demand a sustained effort. Victory will come not as a result of spectacular battlefield successes, but by breaking the will of our adversaries..."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-mahnken121301.shtml

We're in for a long haul, boys.  

Side note to the guy who's e-mailing me claiming to be Secretary Powell:  His first name is spelled C-O-L-I-N.  It would add some credibility if you got that right.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 14:35:26 (ZULU)

Re cold weather gloves.  2 solutions - 1.  Go to Walmart's sporting goods dept and get a pair of neoprene gloves.  Cut the trigger finger of the glove partially through near the tip (1st joint) so that you can slip the finger out of the glove to shoot and back over your finger when not shooting.  You can also attach velcro to the back of the finger to keep it out of the way while shooting.  2.  Get a pair of fingerless rag wool gloves.

I've used both solutions when winter flyfishing in really cold weather/water and they work.

HTH.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 15:02:11 (ZULU)

Nutria: We have them in Oregon, as well. All over the Willamette Valley. NASTY critters. Our folklore indicated they are NOT a south american rat, but a genetic crossing of Beaver and Muskrat. Designed to be bred for the fur trade. Bottom line is the market was bad and they were just let loose. Procreate? Put's rabbits to shame! Great fun to walk the drainage ditches and hose'm down with an SMG!

Wow, the whole thing reminds me of the great Chinchilla caper...anyone remember THAT get rich scheme?

Anyone out there shooting a .338 Mag for sniping? Not the Lapua version the Winchester one. They do well with 300 grainers, it looks like, without the expense of the big Lapua rounds and guns. Recoil on the other hand may be a real BITCH. Maybe I should just settle for the .30/416 Z-Mag a friend of mine develop. Neck down a .416 Rigby to .30 cal with 240 grain bullet. Looks like a .223 Improved on serious steroids.

All for now...hold hard.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 15:29:01 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 16:38:19 (ZULU)

Different critter altogether. Muskrat is Ondatra zibethica; nutria is Myocastor coypus. (No, I didn't know that already--I looked it up!) From what I remember about the muskrat, it's a lot smaller than the nutria, which grow up to about 15 lbs.

Go get 'em...either one ;)

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 16:46:02 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011213-86106316.htm

Indonesia heats up.  Sounds nasty.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20011213-3522675.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 17:26:36 (ZULU)

Bolt, just $50 for the kitty, how do you want it? cash, check, MO, virgin brass, powder, Florida Sunshine about Feburary or March?

Anybody know of any other ranges in south florida that are longer than 200 yards?  need something close to visit while the wife's at work                             TomC

Thomas Cook <Flcookfamily@cs.com>
Lake Worth, FL, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:15:09 (ZULU)

The lack of any other apparent market for the wiley and vicious Nutria is being filled by people who are pushing for....consumption.

Thats right, if a Cajun could figure out how to fillet a mosquito, he'd fry'im up a mess. I have not tried Nutria yet (which is funny because I'm "mostly" cajun...) but I hear it's not bad. I think that if I ever do I'll probably still prefer 'Gator. I have to think eating a lizard beats eating a rat anyday.

The 20 min clip Patron 'Lito spoke of aired on E!. I had heard of the program before that, but that was mostly unconfirmed rumors. I think they're trying to keep all of the fun to themselves. I would.

All this talk of Nutria busting has me wanting to grab the .22 and head out into Manchac this weekend. Four Mile Marsh sounds like a good plan....

Watch out for the other guy,

Chase

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:15:25 (ZULU)

How skittish are these things?  It sounds like you can almost walk right up to them.  Might be good for a TC-Contender (name your favorite cartridge) and a 3-9x Leupold, with V-Max loads.

I thought these things were appetizers for anacondas in Venezuela.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:58:52 (ZULU)

IF a cajun cooked mosquitos, they taste like fried quail!

We ARE talkin about that old crotchy Bruce Robinson out there in Young Mexico. A gentleman by whose standards? He won't even allow Pachmayers on his Parker. He probably doesn't even prefer blondes.

You guys have a way of distortin the truth somethin fierce.

CAUTION POLITICAL Rhetoric!

Looks like Indonesia is gonna be the next hit. I can't believe they're makin it so easy for us! The constant reference to Islamic leaders, that are sympathatic to UBL, is a smoking bomb if you can believe that tape. "I can!" Wouldn't like to air mail a match king to those 2 bastards?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:07:01 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry121301.shtml

If the Cajun's I've met cooked a nutria, I'd eat it.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:18:17 (ZULU)

CHASE:  Used to see two boys from Hammond at the rodeo every weekend.  Both good cowboys.  Been a while.  I forget the names.

RATS:  Nutria live in the water so they are really pretty clean animals.  They just look like a big ole regular rat with orange buck teeth.  Used to hunt/trap 'em in high school and sell the skins.  Made good goin' out money back then.

LITO:  Been froggin' too.  Lots.  Gigs and .22s  For some weird reason, I always liked using the rifle better (go figure).  Did lose a few that way though.  You'll lose 'em if they jump when you hit 'em near deeper water.  Their ears look just like a little bullseye target.  Hold my beer, I'll shoot this un from the truck !  

I remember one night as a kid, Dad and I were on the bayou late.  Dad was teaching me how to skull a pirougue along while sitting in the front.  I saw a frog on the bank and eased over there to grab him.  Dad calmly told me not to grab him and to look just a little bit harder at him.  I adjusted my headlight and saw that a big ole cottonmouth had him by the back legs.  Dad shot the cottonmouth and we pulled him off the frog.  The snake had long assed fangs with ole green, puss looking poison sacs plum full.  We let the frog be.  Figured he'd had a rough enough day.  Besides, who the hell wants frog legs laced with snake poison.

Watch your six,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:22:50 (ZULU)

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/13/wsom13.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/13/ixhome.html

Bad terrorist incedent in New Delhi.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/131201/dlnat125.asp

And it sure hit the fan in Israel, huh?  Good thing the West Bank, India and Indonesia didn't all happen in late September.  This half-assed jihad may have been much messier.  If you have to have enemies, it is a real convenience for them to be too stupid to coordinate their operations.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:44:12 (ZULU)

Garrison driven small game shoot tommorow, should be a good laugh, usualy is, lets see if there are any pheasants this year, good day out with my dog.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:21:42 (ZULU)

Thanks very much for the helpful comments concerning my no.32 Mk2 Houghton Butcher scope.  Pete L, I recognize a fellow fanatic.  I hope you manage to find one of these No.4 Mk1 (T)'s.  

Caison, I will try the 1" tape method you described.  My post comes to a point, but it still ought to work as a rough and ready method of ranging.  Better than my inexperienced eyeball, anyway.

I take your point about getting a more up to date rig if I want to get into the sport seriously (and I do).  But my wife'll shoot me if I drop another bag o' bucks on another rifle right now.  Besides, I'm in love with the Lee-Enfield.  

However, that brings up another question.  I'm looking for shooting schools in the North East where a beginner can get good instruction on long-range shooting.  Ideally, one that would let me use my No.4 Mk.I.  The only school I've found that has a course specifically for old rifles is Thunder Ranch, in Texas, and that course isn't offered until the end of April 2002.  Can anyone suggest other schools?  

Finally, this Kamikaze camel story.  I have personal experience of this type of warning, and it makes me wonder why elements of Uncle Sam's government seem so fixated on it.  I hadn't heard about the Afghans using suicide camels against the Soviets, maybe that's where it comes from.

Anyway, a couple of years back a team of people from a client were offered a briefing in DC by a couple of government agencies.  The client was building a very expensive, high profile piece of infrastructure in a rather touchy place and so gratefully accepted the offer and dispatched a very high-powered team of people.  Well, they sit down in a room in DC and the briefing begins, and goes on, and on.  And a powerpoint slide goes up listing sources of threat and one of the categories is "animal".

Animal?  says one of the client people.  What kind of threat are animals?  

Sheep, says the government man.  Sheep?  says the client person.

Exploding sheep, says the government man.  And goes on to describe, straight faced, a scenario in which terrorists strap explosives to sheep and herd them into the infrastructure in question.  The clients were, to say the least, flabbergasted.

The area in question is lousy with wolves, and to this day we call them sheep interceptors.

I hear, incidentally, that the Marines missed the camel. True?  Because, y'know, I could do the USMC a great deal on some sheep, er, camel interceptors ...  

Robin

Robin Bhatty <pike2bishop@cs.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:23:29 (ZULU)

<a recoil pad on a fine gun looked like someone in a tux wearing rubber boots>

Don’t know who said that, but I wish I had!

Wes,

My Dad had Chinchillas in the late 50’s, which I had to care for. We never got rich, but had some good laughs when some got out in the basement and our bulldog caught ‘em and brought ‘em back unharmed. Those suckers could run, but so could the bulldog.

CDC’,

No-one corrects my spelling of “CHILE”……it’s already correct…..they only offer their own misinformed opinion regarding an alternative spelling. Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do.

Brian,

Great talking with you. Don’t insult me or my East Tennessee kinfolk, though, by saying such things….we’re trashier than near about anybody. I’ve met more gentlemen in bib overhauls than all that ever wore three-piece suits in corporate America. Give me Jerry Clower and Marcel Ledbetter any time.

On Nutria:

Never ate one. Did eat a woodchuck, years ago. They were known as “Hoover Hogs” in the South during the Depression. A survivor of those times gave me the recipe.

Longer I cooked it, the worse it smelled. Had to open every window in the house. Finally removed the corpse from the crockpot and chowed down.

I’m gonna have to be damn hungry to eat another one. Anybody wants the recipe, contact me.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:44:30 (ZULU)

You guys up there in Oregon and Washington got them Nutria confused with Nauga! I've never ate one of them Nauga's but I think the fun is in the findin. (sorry ahead of time Maurius). Those I've talked too that ate them Nauga say they taste a lot like plastic but they chew like rubber. Hides ain't worth much either! But they have a knack for hidin. I've sure you've heard of a Nauga hide!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 21:16:42 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:05:19 (ZULU)

What's goin' on here? First we talk about Trounds, and the venerable Gyrojet, then chinchilla ranching, then Argosy, and now...Naugahyde???

Everybody's traipsing down memory lane ;))

Ain't nobody shootin' no more? Gotta go find me some nutria....

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:17:25 (ZULU)

KEITH CAMARDO <BATCAM1@AOL.COM>
ST. MARYS, GA, US - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:22:50 (ZULU)

all this talk bout shooting nutricious rats or something, makes me remember that i am back doing homework in little ol' dutch country instead of hunting skunks and raccoons in beautifull kentucky...sh#t i wish i was still there...

about shooting raccoons, maybe one of you fine "BIG" predator rat sniping people can explain to me why it took me everytime 2 to 3 .22 hollow point bullets to kill a raccoon instead of 1?

(and nope, it was not poor marksmanship, every round hit what i was aiming for)

i mean, even a shot straight between the eyes would'nt kill em instantly, they would still be doing some breakdancing for a minute or 2 (ofcourse after the first time they never got the 2 minutes again cause i shot each of em twice more centre mass within 2 seconds), i guess raccoons and skunks are not good medulla shot excercise targets??

L8r,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:39:59 (ZULU)

Check out www.tacticalstocks.com/m40a1_kits.htm (bottom of the page) or just click on my name for the link. They have an M40A1 package deal in which you just send them an action and they put on a match grade barrel, not sure which one but it's on the site, a McMillan HTG stock pillar bedded, their floorplate, which looks like a Winchester Mod 70 like on the M40A1 but it's one piece so no bedding problems, and they also clipslot the action. It runs about $1150 I believe. Which isn't to bad if you can get a cheap action from WalMart or a used one then the whole thing shouldn't cost you more than $1400.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:28:11 (ZULU)

Had a local cowboy ask me if I'd been jacklightin deer on him? Said he had a report there were lots of spotlights flashin out on his  ranch land. Before I could say a word my partner said, "Hell no it weren't us, we use night vision!"  Thought you guys might enjoy that one!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:41:55 (ZULU)

I'm a longtime lurker w/a Rem 700P in .300 WinMag (Leupold MkIV M1 10x on top) and have an on-topic question and off-topic comment.

On topic: What's the closest reloaded approximation to the A-191 .300 WinMag? My buddy and I just went half-zies on a Dillon RL 550 that should be set up by Christmas, and bought full set-ups for 9mm, .223 and .300 WinMag...

Off topic: Just became a first-time Daddy, to the most beautiful girl in the world. While signing the pediatrician's forms for her first appointment recently (at a practice affiliated w/a major Chicago hospital), they asked for the usual family history stuff, a bunch of "yes/no" questions about who's had high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.

Here's a couple questions near the end:

"Are you concerned about your child's exposure to violence?  Y/N"

"Are there any guns in the home?   Y/N"

OK. So how the hell are you gonna answer the first one? Just to screw with them, I circled "No."

And for the second question, I just didn't feel it was one that needed to be answered, just on principle (we don't--thanks to Mayor Daley). I was waiting to go toe-to-toe with the Doc, but it never came up in discussion.

(sigh) It's disappointing to see the medical establishment firmly entrenched in politics...

Anyway, sorry to ramble. Thought you guys might find that interesting.

Derek

PS: 'Lito: See www.mycathatesyou.com  You'd get a kick out of it.

Derek Stickel <spike_226@hotmail.com>
Chicago, IL, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:46:26 (ZULU)

If you knew those guys within the last 10-15 years chances are decent I know them too. The funniest thing about this place is nobody ever escapes. The only problem with this really is, like every other small town in America, everybody knows everything about you or anything you ever did.

The biggest problem here is finding a place to shoot. Unless you know somebody with huge tracts of land your left with shooting along runs of high Tension wires. This is really only productive in the Fall or Winter. You can watch the Kudzu dominate in the Summer. Second to this is finding people to shoot with. I can get about 300m at one friends house, but those days are rare.

Will Camp Shelby let people drive onto the base to use the ranges there? I'm not so far from there that I couldn't make it a 1-2 day thing. I know the Navy looks down on bringing personally owned weapon onto the base. How does the army feel about it?

Any help is appreciated as always.

Chase

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 00:03:41 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$ZCS0W1QAADZTHQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/14/wbin14.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/14/ixhome.html

Rumsfeld says that Al Qaeda can surrender when they turn bin Laden over.  If they don't have him, they either find him or they die.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 00:31:58 (ZULU)

Can anyone post the URL to the site that carries the TGRT (?) data books that Gooch used to sell?  Would appreciate it, my son wants to order me one for Christmas.

Thanks

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 01:33:55 (ZULU)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 01:36:45 (ZULU)

Flu bug struck today. Just woke up and feel like recycled...whatever.

Better than earlier, though.

Bill, the Nauga's are on the endangered species list and if you are caught with the Hides you're in big trouble. On the bright side, the Asians and Hispanics are still shooting each other over Morell Mushrooms, and edible fungi, in our woods. The hobby mushroom hunters have just about given up the hunt because of this...

Poaching is a big problem, as well.

Seems to me they should issue five tags per year for US "sniper folk" to hunt these nerds. That would help the issue considerably.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 02:09:05 (ZULU)

DMAT/VMAT/DMORT members ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Recieved in an email last night!!!!!!!

=============

HR2333 was rewritten as HR3448 and passed!  about 90% of the content of what was in HR2333 is included in HR3448.  The bulk of what we all were waiting for!

I urge you to stop by the NADMAT web site and view the legislative

initiatives page

http://mediccom.org/public/NADMAT/default.htm

for more info.  Specific information and the full text of the bill can

be found at:

http://mediccom.org/public/NADMAT/leg.html

To summarize what this might mean to us as DMAT/VMAT/DMORT members (by

no means inclusive of all the topics in the bill).

1) Establishes new position of Assistant Secretary for Emergency

Preparedness to coordinate HHS activities under the new Act. Authorizes the National Disaster Medical System, under the new Assistant Secretary to provide for further National capacity during public health emergencies.

2) Provides grants for training and education for where there are

shortages in categories of health care professionals to respond to

public health emergencies.

3) Establishes National system to help verify the licenses, credentials and hospital privileges of health professionals who volunteer to respond during public health emergencies.

4) Provides flexibility to allow the Secretary of HHS to supply actual

supplies, equipment, or services instead of, or in conjunction with,

grants.

5) Authorizes the transfer of funds during public health emergencies

without lengthy waiting periods.

6) There is verbage that includes that workers comp and coverage for

injury includes during authorized drills and training, not just during a deployment.

HERE's the big one, employment rights while on deployment:

(3) EMPLOYMENT AND REEMPLOYMENT

RIGHTS.

(A) IN GENERAL.-Service as an intermittent disaster-response appointee

when the Secretary activates the National System or when the individual participates in a training program authorized by the Assistant Secretary for Emergency Preparedness or a comparable

official of any Federal agency specified in subsection (b)(2)(B) shall

be deemed 'service in the uniformed services' for purposes of chapter 43 of title 38, United States Code, pertaining to employment and

reemployment rights of individuals who have performed service in the

uniformed services (regardless of whether the individual receives compensation for such participation). All rights and obligations of such persons and procedures for assistance, enforcement, and investigation shall be as provided for in chapter 21 43 of title 38, United States Code.

(B) NOTICE OF ABSENCE FROM POSITION OF EMPLOYMENT.-Preclusion of giving notice of service by necessity of Service as an intermitent disaster-response appointee when the Secretary activates the National System shall be deemed preclusion by 'military necessity'for purposes of section 4312(b) of title 38, United States Code, pertaining to giving notice of absence from a position of employment. A Determination of such necessity shall be made by the Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, and shall not be subject to judicial review.

The list goes on, and its quite exciting legislation as it means Big $$$ for NDMS and official recognition of the program after all these years!

Happy, happy, happy, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
Happy in...., NC, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 02:29:20 (ZULU)

Looking for some experiance. Looking to modify an ARMALITE to 7mm short mag from Remm. Maybe 300 WSM, the result I am looking for is more long range punch while staying under MOA out to 800 meters. Who is capable of this modification, am I asking to much from the rifle or cartridge. Leaning towards 7mm.

Last topic is what do you think of a Kimber CDP Pro for a every day concealed carry in a suit and tye enviroment.

Regards, Thank you for the opinions.

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 07:36:46 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 03:46:14 (ZULU)

An Armalite to 300 Win. How about Win Short Magnum?  I wouldn't try it at home! What kind of Armalite are we talkin about for sure here?

This may be worse than shootin Nauga's afore it's over!  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 04:06:51 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 04:16:12 (ZULU)

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 05:27:11 (ZULU)

After listening to me (and others) bitch about the ZULU Time Stamp, it is now on the money.

Ken knows how to manipulate those one's and zero's.

Hell, I'd bitch if I was hung with a new rope. Just glad we got somebody like Ken to run this site and humor my cranky ass.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 05:35:01 (ZULU)

          Can't do nothin' about the endangered status of them Naugas' but if its just the hides you want, go down to the closest auto graveyard and start pickin' around the 1960's era Pontiacs;-). Next thing you know we'll be huntin' Chias!

Marco, newbie to 'coon huntin, they're not hard to kill - it just takes 'em awhile to figure out that they're dead :-))

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 05:43:00 (ZULU)

Bill wrote about an Armalite in .300 WSM. Probably do-able, but what you gonna use for a magzine? More trouble than it's worth, IMHO.

Leave it to a guy who's comfortable with a .40 Short & Weak Glock to want a Armalite. Ahem, ever hear of bolt guns...;-)

Bruce,

Ken still has the time screwed up. It's NOT ZULU Time...it's Grenich(sp?)Mean Time...boy, some guys just NEVER get it right. Think I'll duck and run for now. Ken's probably calling in a strike on my pos...

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 06:26:36 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40549-2001Dec13.html

Some thoughts on unilateralism from Krauthammer.  This is good.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41292-2001Dec13.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 06:27:42 (ZULU)

Ken... your server clock is 22 seconds slow :((

-

OK... lemme see... it was Hotties over 40, "G" spots, and now were on Nauga and huntin' the dangerious Green Spotted Mountain Chia (my neahbor's favorite pet)... lordie what's this site coming to??

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 08:40:38 (ZULU)

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 09:15:52 (ZULU)

They "moved" to UTC? Boy, am I out of date. However, they still have Zulu time. 'Lito, I'm like you...how the hell did they manage that and how are they keeping their times straight...or is it just us and the military using Zulu time?

I missed "over 40 hotties" and "G-spots"? How'd I manage that...before my time on the list or am I just so old that I've lost interest?

I've a Winchester M70 that may look good as a 6.5 X 45MM (based on the .308). Very efficient. So many guns/wants, so little time/money...

There, a gun related post!

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 10:38:58 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 11:36:28 (ZULU)

Geeze, I thought I was the only one up this late(early?) and had screwed up sleep patterns. Let'em bitch about the time, Ken. We're just darn lucky to have you riding herd on the site!

As sometimes happens, on these eves, I was comparing ballistic data between my 6.5 X .284 and the .300 Win Mag. With the .300 and a 155 gr. Palma MK, at 3,400 FPS it actually shoots flatter to 1,000 than my beloved 6.5 with 142 Sierras...but it's close.

Hmmm, how about a .30/.416 Rigby(Z-Mag)and that same bullet at 3,800 FPS...followed by half the rifling. Actually, Zareh Ohanian has 200+ rounds through the Z-mag. Mostly 240 Sierra's. The jury is still out on barrel life...powder charge is 120+ grains powder. That's enough for almost three .308 reloads!

See? We can do a shooting related post...now back to "bin Laden and the nutria...".

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 11:49:30 (ZULU)

Talk to George Gardner.   To get what you want in under 1 MOA out to 800 yards , a simple old .308 pushing 175's will do the trick and then some.   There are a few people working on either the WSM or the Remington short mags.  The one I know in particular is so busy with work that it is on the back burner.   Rick indicated the Army was working on somethin a while back with AR-10's and the Rem. SM.  The rifles will handle it no problem.   What has to be reworked is the feed being switched from a side feed to a center feed.  This may only involve a modified feed ramp and center feed followers but until it is tested know one knows exactly it will work out.

Wes -  not to piss on you corn flakes, but the AR-10's will shoot with the bolt guns.  All of the services are looking at either the Armalite or the Knight as next generation weapons.  IN fact the Knight MkII  Mod 00 has been adopted by two or three branches of the Military.  Armalite is also close to getting its rifle adopted.  These things are every bit as good as the best bolt guns and provide tremendous fire power when needed by a sniper.  These new gas guns area giant leap ahead of the old M21/M25, and even the PSG-1.

Doing some serious ducking for the incoming.

Take Care

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 12:31:33 (ZULU)

 Congrats

 On those medical forms (and the many others you'll get now that you're a dad)... only answer the questions you feel they NEED.  If they want the info for a specific reason they'll ask again and explain the reason for the initial request.

 Short sea story:  (come on guy's, it's my first one and it'll be short)

 I was stationed on a Nuke cruiser, USS California, in the medical department.  The new Chief came on board and immediately stopped sending in the numerous "required" reports, both internal and external to the command.  I asked what he was trying to do and his reply was this...

 There are too many reports and they cut into our time to do the necessary physical things.  I stop sending the reports and if there is anyone on the other end that's reading the reports or if they're important I'll get feedback about the missing report AND THEN I'll resume sending THAT particular report.

 After that, there were a lot less reports being sent out, lots of legacy reports and garbage info in the system.  

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 12:55:57 (ZULU)

CHASE:  No info on the Army base question.  I think I am the wrong guy to ask on that one.  I am curious too though.  The wife and I get to New Orleans a lot.  Maybe next time I could bring a stick or two  and you could teach me something.  Been trying to get a hold of NO SWAT for a while.  Don't here much from them boys.  They capped a  robber a few weeks back though.

COONS:  Coons are tough.  No doubt about it.  I've seen 'em take more .22 rounds, than it took to put down some men. (.22, .25, .380 in a  Lorcin/Davis auto) - weapon of choice on the street (unless they're Asian. Then it's a Glock 9mm, .40, .45 or a MAC or AK).

How ya'll skin one of them naughas ?

Watch your six,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 13:45:44 (ZULU)

Guys, do some research.  Major Land once stated that many enemy targets were detected by brass being ejected from the weapon.  On of the major training points of REAL sniper training is bolt manipulation which controls ejection of the expended cartridge for many reasons,

1.  Movement.  Brass knocks cover and attracts attention.

2.  Shine.  Shiny brass thing flying through the air.  Same as #1.

3.  Evidence of sniper activity.  Fucking brass has now flown a few feet from your location.  Gotta retrieve it before we move from FFP.  

4.  Location of observer.  Depending on ejection pattern of rifle the fucking brass nails observer in face when behind scope. Brass catchers cause stoppages sometimes and are bulky.

5.  Reliability.  Semi-auto mechanisms that are "match quality" are notorious for stoppages and malfunctions.  

Granted some of this shit is preventable. BUT.....

Firepower ranks way down on the list of priorities.  Accuracy and stealth are more important.  Thats why thier observer carries a M203 and a radio and in the real world we usually operate near a security detachment.  Ninja missions behind enemy lines are mostly for the movies.

Gas guns as sniper rifles IN GENERAL should be avoided.  If you want one to shoot competitions with or sit around and fondle while you watch the discovery channel fine, but not for MOST real world missions.

Thats my story and Im sticking to it.

OUT

gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 14:49:43 (ZULU)

Update on the fighting.  There are claims that they have yo' mama cornered.  The source for that sounds squirrly.  Al Qaeda is taking significant casualties.  It sounds like some of them are E&Eing into Pakistan.  

http://wire.ap.org/?SLUG=AFGHAN%2dFIGHTING

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 15:03:32 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 15:59:23 (ZULU)

Not so sure I like the idea of a heavily funded, federally controlled disaster response system.

I was an elite volunteer member of an active USAR team on Sept 11-12.  I came home from that assignment and promptly resigned... I didn't care for the hidden agendas of the paid "professionals" there to "lead me" (and enhance their resume...)

Something to think on....

New Jersey probably had 100 willing, trained men (held back) for every one they sent to NYC.  Most of these men were not paid, and thus, were there for only one reason.....to help.  What exactly needs fixing??????

If I'm ever hurt and trapped, please send me a 100% volunteer team...you cannot buy unconditional commitment.

Plus, I don't recall the US Constitution ceding to the Feds the redistribution of wealth for the purpose of replacing a free rescue system that works...thus, that boon-doggle concept is a State's right to screw up....

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:00:45 (ZULU)

If ya has a big one, it'll look just like a lazyboy when you are done.

Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:01:59 (ZULU)

 Thanks for the wake-up call.

 Just yesterday I was laying the groundwork to build a AR-10.

 Now I must ask myself.....What for?

 I read your post and WILCO.

 I guess I'll have to use my bonus on a down payment for a V-ROD.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:38:39 (ZULU)

I need to kill time by shooting my SAVAGE 10FP 223. Until George gets my new 308 toy to me. So I had bad luck with 75 gr pills with Varget at 300 yards. Any input? Or, should I go back to 69 gr boolits that shoot 1.75-2.00" consistantly at 300?

Naugas were found to be extinct by PETA awhile back. Takes about 30-40 to make a nice davenport.

To The Right Of The Line.

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:41:15 (ZULU)

I've gotta weigh in with Ken Gooch on this one...Bolt actions for the sniper, not semi-auto's. For the very reasons he stated. Remember a major part of your mission is intelligence gathering the other part is sniping. Both require stealth. I'll take a bolt gun over the semi auto any day. Pulleezz! Don't give me the old "firepower" superiority thing...if you/ve been made the last thing you want is to engage in a firefight...remember, the opposition WANTS to fix your position and destroy you! I won't even waste any more breath on this one...seems to many folks are used to firing from secure fixed positions NOT "indian" country. Think about it, Dammit!

Titan,

Choice of weapon is a deeply personal choice. Mine will always be a bolt gun. And yes, I know the semi's can be spectacularly accurate(I own several), but they are NOT my choice. IMHO, anyone that arms a sniper, with a semi, is looking at the wrong set of mission parameters.

Case in point: The Army gave up on the gas guns and went to the bolt gun(M-24)and the Marines have used bolt guns exclusively. This asided from their mis-guided attempt to make the M25 shoot. Boots Obermeyer had to made a run of barrels to make that happen(for the spec-ops guys).

I rest my case, your choice, I've made mine!

Semper Fi,

Wes  

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:45:48 (ZULU)

bin Laden?' I said, 'I don't know, let's find out.'"

                              - Don Imus

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:07:44 (ZULU)

I was trying to make light of all the comments going back and forth about Tac-Ord and the mis-information involved.   I felt too many people were taking the blame for the information they were passing because they didn't have the whole story... things like that happen.

Once again Sorry....

                                    TomC

Thomas Cook <Flcookfamily@cs.com>
Lake Worth, Fl, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:26:17 (ZULU)

Does that make me simple?

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:34:00 (ZULU)

Firepower?!?  In a two or four man sniper team?  Redefine your meaning of firepower if you think a four man team has any.  Think of things with guns measured in inches, starting with 4.7(120mm).  Yeah, I'm having my (4man)teams hump two M203's and a SAW, but that's so they have a prayer if they run into an infantry SQUAD, let alone a platoon or company.

There is a place for a gun like this IMO.  That's the airborne sniper role, like Gordon and Shugart pulled in Somalia, or as part of a MSPF or low intensity urban operation when you can't blow hell out of the countryside.  Semiauto is cool for when you miss(and you will) and the magnum means better trajectory and better penetration(especially if they stuff those tungsten core projectiles from the XM995 into a WSM case).  But it's SOCOM stuff and/or designated marksman stuff(cop stuff too), not true to doctrine, US employed, sniper stuff.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M    

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:45:17 (ZULU)

Found a new use for ghillies....they are great for funnelling water away from insensitive areas and running it down the back of yer neck and crack of yer a--.  Finally got around to getting mine out in the open and in the grass.  Temp in the high 40's low 50's, cloudy, and a 20 mph crosswind, steady.  Perfect, and burlap helps keep the wind off.  Guess what hides in clouds???? Rain.  Amazing how a little water can affect one's temperament.  The Howa didn't care, not one bit. Dialled it back to 100 yds, the Lisenfeld came down exactly where it was supposed to after cranking down 8'.  Shot 3 rds with LC match cases, group wallowed all over the place.  Had 10 rds of Winchester brass that all were within .4 gr weight of each other, shot 7 into one ragged hole.  Anyone know if Win. holds that kinda QC all the time?  The LC wandered all over the place, some of it more than 1.5 gr different.....

Anyone know if there is a good stock I can drop a Howa barrelled action into?  I can get a 26", heavy barrelled action in .308 for less than $380.  LMK....

This bolt gun thing is dangerous....The AR is getting worried that the relationship is in trouble....

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:51:51 (ZULU)

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 18:22:04 (ZULU)

Make mine a rattle battle that holds a decent group.  Remember we can still use match grade ammo in the things which helps LOT'S.

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 18:36:39 (ZULU)

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=14122001-114236-4366r

Then why are they sticking around?  This says that many are standing and fighting like they're protecting something.  If so, what could that something be?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/14/gen.war.against.terror/index.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 18:51:21 (ZULU)

-

Ken M... no problem at all.  Drill out the spot welds.  Remove the spacer.  Cut the sides off the spacer, so the front piece with the tall lip, is now flat.  Silver solder (or epoxie) this piece to to the back of the magazine box (it will also hold the back of the box together).  Make sure you don't block the notch in the bottom of the magazine box that the front of the trigger guard goes into.

Now remove the bolt stop blade (loose the rear trigger pin), and cut back the blade so it lets the bolt come back far enough to pick up the rounds that are now longer.  This might take a little trial and error to get right.  Also, you might have to change the angle of the tab on the plate that you re-installed... it should NOT let rounds get under the bolt head (for obvious reasons)...

The Leade on my M70 .223 HBV's is the exactly the same, and the leade on my M70 .308 HBV's is exactly the same... your's is NOT a fluke... they hold a tight tolerance on the reamers.

... I've done ALL my M70's this way... and all will feed rounds through the magazine with the bullets touching the leade... it workie jus' fine!  And doesn't void the Winchester Guarantee.

-

Went to the range today... got there just in time for it to pour :((

But got a deposit in on the .22rf Rem 40-X.  It is marked "U.S. Government Property"... total price is $400.

The stock needs a gallon of paint stripper to remove the ratty old finish, which looks like shit, but the metal is fine.  I probably won't do much with the stock... since it is a Rem 40-X action, it will drop directly into a M24 stock... My .22 practice sniper riffle is found!  Got a Lupita 6x scope with mildots just waiting to go on it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 19:51:24 (ZULU)

How do I contact George Gardner fellow.

Also nobody's come out of the woods yet and dress up but still carry?

Regards, Ryan

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 20:09:15 (ZULU)

Forgot ofcourse that for a mendula shot to work, the target you are shooting at has got to have a big enough brain so you can actually hit the mendula...maybe cats got more brain mass...

what do you think 'Lito, maybe you can try it with your new R-40x .22 rifle next time you see one of those ferocious cats?  

Talk about stupid....just saw some new footage from CNN about the failed "jail-break" in Afghanistan, they actually showed the faces of SAS guys and US specops shooting m240's (gympy for Pete) alongside N-Aliance troops at the uprising taliban shitheads...guess CNN does not mind that IRA and other terrorist organisations do know how to work a vcr...

Marco.

marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 21:20:49 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43522-2001Dec14.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 21:49:17 (ZULU)

I am not a sniper nor do I play one on TV, but with the number that are in use and with what appears to more use of them, what are they being used for?   I would think that in Urban settings, Police work, and in particular anti terrorist work the gas guns would give the operator a distinctive edge. In the DM role they should be outstanding.  And I refer back to Gooch's article In TS a couple of years ago when the USMC adopted that M-14 something for a DM rifle. Remember the PSG-1 was purpose built to deal with the multi target situations like the Israeli Olympic hostage situation.  Issues like brass flying is a non issue in that your cape or rifle cover generally drops the brass right in front of you( My experience pretending).  As for the fellow that brough up action noise, I think the muzzle sound covers that up nicely, unless a suppressor is used and than again the tools should suite the mission.

Ken M put things quite well.  Personally I would like to see more talk on the DM's and their role, and also what SOCOM and others are using these rifles for.

Take Care

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 22:01:39 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 22:57:03 (ZULU)

Can't comment on the MK II, Mod O thing much. I do know there is serious work going on in the spec ops community...and there has been for awhile. Bits and pieces have floated in from reliable sources. I WILL NOT comment about that on a public forum except to say it appears that work is being done for the spec ops community.

Hot Oldies...married one! Sharran is 13 months older than I am...always liked them older women! Guess I missed most of the exchange. Focused on other things, dammit. Like loading 6.5 X .284...GOTTA get my priorities straight.

Looks like snow this eveing/night. Down to 38 degrees now and "piffling". Expect to see a light white coating in the morn.

All for now...let's keep the conjecture down folks and let our professionals do their work.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 22:58:38 (ZULU)

That's all that matters. All is right with the world.

Bob <rvl@inil.com>
Chicago, IL, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:21:31 (ZULU)

I was last there 5 years ago and they had several arsenal made Enfields and 2 "Peshawar specials" with receivers cut out of solid blocks of steel with hand tools.  Workmanship was excellent, if they hadn't wanted $500 for the handcrafted ones, I'd have bought one for a conversation piece.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:32:10 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:49:34 (ZULU)

Thanks Ya'll

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:57:38 (ZULU)

Nobody shoots naughas nomore. All the cool guys are huntin Avids!

An Avid is an amphibious mammal, this is good because you can be an avid hunter in the fall and winter, and an avid fly fisherman in the spring and summer. Hell I gotta buddy that captured a few, and now he's an avid racer.

Bruce,

Relax...don't hyperventilate...the double was a field grade Spanish gun, it was almost an inch too short in length of pull. So, instead of bollixing up a wood stock extenction, I did a well done rubber pad (if I do say so my self). It didn't cost as much as a new BMW but I still love it. It just needs more company in the safe!

Don't get started on huntin coons. Sgt. Dad will be tellin everyone about the time it was so cold he chattered out the fillings in his teeth ; )

4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
origional, Indian country, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:58:07 (ZULU)

Gas guns versus bolt guns? Being a wannabee sniper person I wouldn't go into Injun country with a semi. Give me a bolt gun and my Model 19 and I would be most happy. Spotter and auto yes, sniper and auto no. Will never get to test my theory though so who cares LOL?

Hotties or Hooties? Woops, wrong subject. The lovely Meatwoman exceeds me in age by 6 months but she's not loosing her hair like I am thank goodness. Still dances like a 20 year old pro. Even makes me look good.

Charles, nothing better to wake you up in the morning than a cold rain down your neck, sitting in a tree stand, at daylight, with deer under the stand and you can't move!

"Sir Wesley... the "Over 40 hotties" was about 3 weeks ago... the boltster started it... it wasn't MY fault!... then we've been slidin' down hill ever since ;))"

That's right 'Lito, blame your closet older women desires on the Boltster.

Thomas Cook, flogging is a perfectly acceptable topic. Just last night I told Meatwoman..... Woops, not going there!

Imus rules, just like pork fat!

Jim Mitchell,

I won't get into a pissing contest about the pro's and cons of non-paid versus paid volunteers except to say that 'properly used', both entities have a place in disasters. I know for a fact that you guys weren't the only ones sitting on their asses waiting to go in. Suffice it to say that probably 99% of everyone there were there as volunteers, were there of their own valition and not forced, and were there to help when and if needed. I also won't get into a pissing contest about the constitutionality of taxes. All I know is that I have to pay them, will always have to pay them and if I do have to pay them at least I want my hard earned dollars to go for something that isn't a waste like paying for a some guy taking a shit in an art gallery and calling it artwork. Nuff said on that one!

Start of a good weekend! Going to sit down with the reloading, gun and accessory catalogs and make my slim budget out for next year. Also will have my nightly orgasm while looking at a pic of the G.A. Precision Rock that is hanging in the shop.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 01:21:26 (ZULU)

On the .50 question.

Stick with the MkIV Series Leupolds.  Thier internal shit is rated for .50 recoil/concussion/punishment.  The LR series just uses the normal civvy grade guts that are fine on .308's and the like but might get rattled with a .50.

Other issues are total available elevation come-ups.

I dont care how good of a recoil taming system a .50 has  its still a recoil monster and will eat a scope.  Also use Badger Ordnance .50 cal rings and tapered base on it or the scope might shift in the rings.  The tapered base will help with the elevation capacity also.  

Went through a lot of this stuff at Quantico when the Barretts first came out.

Out

goochkw <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:26:36 (ZULU)

On the .50 question.

Stick with the MkIV Series Leupolds.  Thier internal shit is rated for .50 recoil/concussion/punishment.  The LR series just uses the normal civvy grade guts that are fine on .308's and the like but might get rattled with a .50.

Other issues are total available elevation come-ups.

I dont care how good of a recoil taming system a .50 has  its still a recoil monster and will eat a scope.  Also use Badger Ordnance .50 cal rings and tapered base on it or the scope might shift in the rings.  The tapered base will help with the elevation capacity also.  

Went through a lot of this stuff at Quantico when the Barretts first came out.

Out

goochkw <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:26:36 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$ZKQFRVAAABSBXQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/15/wafg15.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/15/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:31:24 (ZULU)

I have a AR-50, and love it.  First, there are two scope bases available from Armalite... a 15moa taper, and a 55 moa taper... which one did you guys get.  Also, what do you guys call "long range"??  600yds, or 1,800 yds?  All the above will determine what scopes and rings you will need.

If you are going to shoot "urban" you will need a variable.  The Leupolds will take the recoil, so will Nightforce, and Springfield Armory... a lotta guys that shoot 50's have had the Tascos fail (tramatically).

The gun is very accurate, and easy to shoot, but you will need good match ammo (or handloads) to get the potential (less than 1 moa) out of it.  Mil surplus, and junk factory ball stuff like PMC will give you 3" to 4" groups.  And the muzzle blast to the shooter will definitely get his (and everybody elses) attention.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:45:31 (ZULU)

Jim had asked about scopes for .50 cals. We had a number of these at our yearly MG shoot last weekend and all, but one, wore Luppie MK IV M1's. The odd man out had the big Swarovski .50 cal scope and 1500 yard reticle. Talk about NICE! I was afraid to ask how much it set him back. All were mounted on Barrett M82A1's...

Ken has it right. These are made to handle the .50 recoil. Proudly made right here in Oregon.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:49:35 (ZULU)

WINTER PROJECTS...

Just wondering what projects you guys are working on for the winter.

New rifles, packs, ghillies, new ancilliary equipment...? Enquiring minds want to know...besides it may give us something to discuss other than, nutria, nagha's, and hydes;-)

My list is:

1. Carpal tunnel surgery...so I can hold the rifle weight without it hurting line hell.

2. Get back in shape/lose some weight...no sense carrying the equivelent weight of TWO Alice packs!

3. Set up new Alice Medium pack to hold my equipment properly.

  Identify mission essential load and pre-pack(grab and go scenario).

  Identify ancilliary equipment that may be needed for general

  purpose training.

4. Establish winter training regimen...

5. Figure out a way for a few of us to get together and shoot!

Of course this will between my other commitments, honey do's, etc.!

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes

P.S. I'm an "avid" reader. Do I add that to the list, too, or just target it?

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 03:17:44 (ZULU)

I been reading your posts about why the gas guns aren't good choices as sniper rifles, but nobody said anything about weight. I got a couple M1A/M25's, and these things weigh about 17LBs or so with optics, and the bipod. I dont think that is realistic weight for a sniper rifle.

I love shooting these rifles, but would not want to have hump one all over creation. I agree, that there are some times when they might be the right tool, but not as a general rule.

I took 'em to a Precision Rifle class this year. I had the only gas gun in the class (duh?). I did okay with it. Even in the Stress Shoot when I had to run a lot and then shoot. The next afternoon the thunderstorms hit hard. Everything was just covered with mud, and all kinds of debris. Two of the Rem 700's locked up tight. Couldn't open the bolts. The shooters were using Blackhills match ammo. I never did find out why that happened? It happened almost as soon as the rains hit. My M1A/M25 worked even though it was covered with mud, and debris. I think the BPT scope mount helped to keep the mud and crap out of the bolt, and the gas helped blow out what crap that did get in there. Any ideas why the bolt guns locked up after they got wet, and dirty? They did get em working again, but it took a while.

Before I get flamed let me say that I am not suggesting any REAL snipers take this as an endorsement to get M25's for their agencies. I am not a Sniper, gun I am not going to become one.

Before I go to another Rifle Class I am going to have me a good bolt gun. The weight of the M25 almost killed me in the stress shoot! And I workout, and do a couple miles a day! Couldn't be that maybe I am getting too old to play anymore? Or could it be that the rifles are just too damn heavy?

Thanks for your posts on this issue. I enjoyed hearing what you guys had to say.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Out Back, KY, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 03:32:25 (ZULU)

Play in all the matches that I can afford,

Finally learn reloading,

Finally get concealed carry,

Improve offhand shooting,

Reduce trigger weights by myself,

New recoil pads and extend LOP,

Practice stripping AR's in the dark, that will be fun,

Loose 20# and get back into some simblance of shape for a man of my aging years,

Etc.

Time for bed, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 04:14:46 (ZULU)

Guys wanting L42 info, i will scan it in when I get home again and mail it.

Hard days hunting yesterday, my dog is beat, not much game about but good to get out with the guys from the Garrison gun/hunting club. My mate the forester managed to find a trench that hadn't been filled in , it looked like a frozen puddle, so he stood on it, crack splash, up to his middle in cold icy water ( we had minus 9 deg C yesterday) gave the rest of us a laugh, still waters run deep.

I have to work today damn and F#@$%&, as it's the Garrison shoot from the other garrison within the Brigade today, and me n the dog ain't there.

So when did the US start using the M240, have you completely got rid of the M60? we call em (as Marco said) Gimpy, or General Purpose Machine Gun (GPMG), L7 A (whatever version they are at now) is the Infantry, "ground" version, I used to realy enjoy working on these,rebuilding them from a pile of bits and building the SF(sustained fire) mounts. I worked on a RADE (Research and developement) project on a man pullable sled, which was air dropable, and had multi functions, doubled as a stretcher and a few other things( sort of a leatherman sled?!) and had an integral GPMG SF mount on it for us in Mountain and Artic warfare, the Marines tested it in Norway, don't know if its still in use in the cold places. It was an interesting project though.. Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 09:11:29 (ZULU)

"Gas guns as sniper rifles IN GENERAL should be avoided.  If you want one to shoot competitions with or sit around and fondle while you watch the discovery channel fine, but not for MOST real world missions."

Kent You ABSOLUTELY slay me!!! Glad to have you here posting again

Brian Sain - Skin Naugas??

I throw them in the wood chipper to clear out the Al Queda residue.

 Off to some more "annual" PDW qualifications and some good ol' fashioned shootski! Yee-hah!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 12:47:41 (ZULU)

Actually, the M2 andare a little too heavy for fonding while watching Discovery! But an M4 Carbine would do nicely.

Our State police use the M14's and M1A's for a "tactical" rifle. I think they like it in the rural areas. They got between 150-200 of em issued to the Troopers. They got Remington Bolt guns for the Snipers.

Their armorer built my M1A/M25's. They're accurate, and fun to shoot, but I need to get me a good bolt gun too.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 13:30:22 (ZULU)

Talley Ho!!

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011215-68264047.htm

This being a deception using a recording of his voice doesn't seem likely.  His forces wouldn't be fighting like this.  I'll give big odds that he's there, and we're closing on him.

"I shall enjoy watching you die."_______________Jabba the Hut

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 14:57:52 (ZULU)

From what I've seen that is a result of not using the proper lube for the situation.  If you use a waterproof grease on the locking lugs and cocking notch a lot of that can be avoided.  Also, when single loading bullets some guys let the rounds get dirty in unsavory weather conditions which can lock up in the chamber.

I had all of this happen to me in a down pour in Canada a few years ago.  

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 15:40:01 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45355-2001Dec14.html

Thank God for the quality of our civilian leadership and the professionalism and dedication of the good men on the cutting edge of this.  

Churchill said of the RAF pilots, "Never have so many owed so much to so few."  Our SOF hasn't beat that record, but our men have sure done a job.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 16:37:39 (ZULU)

 Yeah M1a's are heavy as hell when you get em scoped up. It's a nice semi and after some gun smithin I finally got mine where the ejector wouldn't fly off the end of the bolt everytime I closed it on a new magazine...but I just didn't get good results and the mount didn't old up well.

  I use no grease at all on my Bolt rifles, taking care that no oil builds up in the bolt. I've not had any problem down to -14 degrees, but it warn't rainin either.

TEST

  I put a Leupold std mount on my .308 and went out everyday and shot it at 100 with it dead zeroed. I didn't mistreat it other than just put it in the jeep and drive out a couple miles to the range. I've used STDs for hunting for years. Just as often as every time I went out the impact point had shifted 1". Groups seemed to run about 3/4" though. No more than that but everytime it went off to the side or up and down.  I changed to a weaver base and an Old B-square mount and repeated the test for a week. I don't believe it (cause I was out to prove these mounts didn't shift) every shot was within 1/2" of the dead center of that target. All the groups were tighter and the gun is still on after going through a couple of weeks of deer season. Guess I'm a little slow to catch on....Gooch and Pat and Catman and just about everyone here has been tellin me that for about 5 years now.

   My caller companion dropped his a-bolt 22-250 and std. Leupold mounted (sheperd scope) last weekend while trying to crawl up a abandoned combine to get better visual. It scratched the scope and bent the whole thing about 4 feet elevation. We don't know if it was the scope or mount or the carbolite barrel that bent. ... but we ran out of "down" and had to shim the scope to get it back on. We will probably have a report on what happened soon. I'll move the scope to another rifle and put another on the Browning A-bolt carbon barrel 22-250. (we think it was just the scope).

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 17:32:44 (ZULU)

The rifle was close to zero at 100 yards.  I say close to zero because it had been zeroed at 100 with a 42 gr. load of Varget, I'd changed it to 44 gr. and hadn't had time to rezero.  We guessed at a come-up for 600 and I fired.  My first shot was on paper, and it only took us a couple of adjustments to get more or less on center.

I was shooting Sierra 168SMKs over 44.0 gr. of Varget and Federal brass.

After sighting adjustments I only got one five round group off, and I didn't get to see the target, a guy down in the pits would put an orange marker where I hit for each shot, but I estimate the one five round group was around 7-8" in size.  My second shot of the group actually shot off, and destroyed, the marker stuck in the first hole.  I giggled like a little girl at that, and I saw it happen through the scope.  For me, considering I was feeling rushed by the guys who were close to wanting to leave, and I didn't take all the time I should have to get everything perfect, I was pleased with this.  It was my first time at 600 yards.  The next time the 600 yard line will be open will be the middle of January.  Ouch!  It could be 0 degrees F, or it could be 32 degrees F, who knows.  I plan on going to that one and being on time.  It was in the low 40s to upper 30s today, which all things considered wasn't bad considering the date.

The hard-cores who were there this morning said sometimes in the winter they'll have to dig in down through the snow, and guys will be shooting out of sleeping bags!  Talk about dedication.  As for me, I'm all for it.  I need to know what it's like shooting in the deep freeze and snow, and I need to make sure I can do it, and have the right clothing, gloves, etc.  I liked the ideas several of you emailed me about gloves.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 17:40:06 (ZULU)

I kind of thought maybe the grease that those guys had used was not weather proof. You ever see the GI grease that comes in the little plastic cups with the yellow tops? I used that stuff for a while on the M1 Garand, and the M1A's. Then in the dead of winter I decided that I needed to shoot one of the M1A's. It was about 15F outside. The M1A would not cycle. I had me really heavy single shot rifle. I bought some Shooter's Choice Hi-Tech grease that day. I stripped all of that GI stuff out of there, and lubed it with the Hi-Tech grease. No problems with function down to -9F. And the rifle works good in the rain too.

I went to Las Vegas this year to shoot in the World Championship 3 Gun Tactical Matches. I used the Bushmaster AR15 in the rifle stages. Because of so much blowing sand, and dust I washed all of the lube out of the reciever, and off the bolt carrier. I used Remington Dri-lube, and the rifle functioned flawlessly for 3 days. I used the same stuff on the Glock with good results.

I asked some other shooters why they thought the Remington 700's locked up in the rain, and they said it was probably due to using wrong kind of lube. They said some lube just turns to paste when it gets wet, and has no lubricating property anymore. Of course, the shooter may have chambered some dirty ammo too. Maybe a little of both?

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 19:12:21 (ZULU)

Dang it, now I have to find base, rings and a scope that will match a silver barrel, blue receiver and black stock. The safety is going to take getting use to I can tell right off the bat. This is my first stainless barrel riffle. Anything special that I need to do with it other than shoot it?

Now I need the action screw torque values for a Winchester so you guys hep me out here.

Hoping for the best, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 19:52:06 (ZULU)

I have heard a lot of great things about varget, and thought I would check out Hodgons website.  They claim that the powders temperature variations are less than 10 fps from 0-125 degree changes in temperature.  I am thinking about trying the H4350, and haven't tried varget because I like factory Blackhills 175 so much.

Are these powders really that temperature insensitive?

I am also looking for some good load data for the 300 WSM, if anyone has any?

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 19:53:17 (ZULU)

  Seriously why do bolt rifles need Lube on the bolt? Or m1a or other Semi's 's for that matter. I think the gas piston works get some lube but I'm not sure about the wisdom of that in inclimate weather?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 20:18:29 (ZULU)

Another possibility regarding bolt guns being tied up in wet weather:

Rifle with match spec chambers can be overly sensitive to water in the chamber.  When fired, the brass has nothing to hold onto...the water acting as though it were grease on the case.  The pressure is taken by the bolt alone.....effect like an overload.  Can tie up the rifle and blow primers.  Have had it happen to me twice on the line at Camp Perry in rain storms.  Wacked the bolt with a plastic mallet to get it open and again to extract the case.....got right back in operation.  If the primer is blown, check to make sure it's not still in the action raceway or lug recesses, cuz that could really tie it up much worse.

Happy Holidays! (Could be the best yet if they finally blow Osama out of his socks!)

Saverio Scozzafava <scozz@prexar.com>
Bangor, Maine, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 20:41:21 (ZULU)

Just checked the trigger pull also. The guy had it set to 1#. Now I need to read Cat Terminator's article on Winchester trigger adjustment.

Bolt is kinda floppy also, which really plays with this weird safety which is noisey as hell. Me thinks me needs a pro to do some pro tweaking on this toy.

Maybe its the rookie in me, but I don't see the need for greasing anything on a rifle. I think it would be the same as for fishing reels. I never grease or oil any gears or moving parts that mesh and  are open to the elements especially on salt water reels. Just begging for stuff to attach itself to the grease and bind up the works. Seems like a light coat of non-TPFE oil would suffice if it has to be done at all.

Hoping I didn't trade for a pig in a poke, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 21:18:57 (ZULU)

Thanks for all the help, advice, experience and e-mails on the 50 cal scope question I asked last night. You all helped a bunch.

Semper Fi

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 21:48:03 (ZULU)

    I will be Las Vegas for the hollidays and was wondering if there was anything there gun related that I should check out?  Any killer shops etc?

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 22:21:08 (ZULU)

If you don'tlike the stainless look (I didn't), get the barrel black teflon'ed, or Robar coated... I did the teflon, and love it.

The gun will shoot well for you.

It's heavy 'cuz the barrel is a heavy barrel, where as the PSS has a medium weight barrel.  The trigger is easy to do.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 22:34:28 (ZULU)

Pete L, i got the same trouble with your e-mail adres, also getting some stuff back like "..could not find a host named t-de...bla bla bla).

And yup got the remmie mail, unfortenately out of dinero's. Will try to come over in the first week of Januar to do some huntin (if financial situation allows for it by then) and Stefan is thinking of coming along, will call you when we know for sure.

Bolt,

the heavy "pig in a poke" will most surely not let you down, au contrair, Monsieur....

I got exactly the same Winnie HBV, fluting and all and am quite pleased with it, i am shooting an average of .3/4 of a moa.

But the problems you describe sound awfull familiar aswell unfortenately. Got the same complaint about the NOISY SAFETY compared to a Remmie's(only if you switch it under pressure it will not make any sound).

And my BOLT FEELS FLOPPY aswell, as if it is bend or that the action is too wide, i compared mine to a Winnie Stealth and the Stealth's bolt felt much more firm/ smoother.

Did do my own trigger with the help of Lito's article and Pete L's description and it was pretty easy to do. Compared it with a Timney trigger and i actually think my own trigger is better! (reall crisp and no slack, trigger pull is comfy around 1kg).

I topped my stick with a B&L 10x tactical on shabby rings and 2 piece bases (still waiting on badger base and rings for 17 weeks now), switched from a Parkerhale bipod to a Harris swivel L, and raised the stock with one of those Eagle things, use Lapua cases with 167 grain Lapua molycoated scenars on top of 45 grains of Vitha N140 and as said before, gonna start with 155 grainers ontop of 48 or 49 grain of N150. It also eats and likes even 180 and 190 grain Sierra's out to 500 meters.

So, not counting the 2-3 little flaws, i am very happy with my Winnie and i am pretty sure you will be aswell, looking forward to hear what your results will be with your Winnie HBV.

Cya around,

Marco.  

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 22:42:46 (ZULU)

What do I tighten the action screws back down to? 65# like the Rem's?

Time for supper, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 23:16:39 (ZULU)

The bedding is a thermal compound that Winchestr used to bed the guns... it set fast and is fairly good... not pretty, but OK.

If you are inclined, Teflon the barrel, then Steel bed it.

See the notes I posted here a few days ago to Ken M, about removing the magazine filler... you can then shoot loads that touch the leade, from the magazine (a "CAN'T DO" from a Remington)... if you don't have the whatever to do it, print the instructions, and take them to a gunsmith.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 00:04:04 (ZULU)

You are gonna like the Winchester M70 HBV. I had one for a couple of years. The one I had came from the factory with this thermo-plastic-crap bedding in the lug recess area. I could get about 1 moa out of it before I popped out that silly crap, and bedded it with Bisonite. I had the trigger adjusted to 2.5Lbs, installed a set of Paramount rear sights, and a Middleton Tompkins Globe front sight. It would shoot 1/2 moa, or better as long as I kept my part of the bargain. I used it for a couple of years for NRA High Power Rifle Long Range Matches at Ft Knox Ky. Somebody caught me off guard when he offered more than I had in it so I sold it. It loved the Sierra 175MK's, and Varget.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 00:19:24 (ZULU)

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 00:43:42 (ZULU)

    Ran into a big old sow this mornin' on the way out to the hangar. Was able to knock her down with my .257 Ackley. She had six piglets with her that ran off and hid. Went on to the hangar and flew about an hour, came back and the piglets had returned, only to be turned into pig roasts!! Was a good day! 7 pigs total. Will have a pig roast tomorrow. Ya'll come!

Rex

Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, The One and Only, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 01:14:44 (ZULU)

Soooo, Bolt has joined the ranks of the .308 Winchester M70 owners. Got rid of mine. Shot 3/4 MOA most of the time, but threw fliers. Didn't want to screw with it, as my M40A1 clone cuts one ragged hole.

My Stealth .223 shoots nicely and I like it very much. Go figure. OF COURSE there is still that pre-64 M70 action I  have that needs to be barreled and chambered!

So many guns needed...so little time...

Enjoy the new rifle.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 01:20:14 (ZULU)

The bore is as bright and shiney as new. There are not even any scratches in the mag well, very few barely discernable scratches on the ramp. Even to these old eyes it looks like it may have had a box of boolits run through it. There are no scratches at all on the gun, none at all. I don't think the guy liked the gun cause it sure hasn't been used much.

Took the Loopy bases and rings off. Screw holes not stripped thank goodness. Will try to find some used Badgers or just pop for some new ones.

Lito San was on the money about the bedding. Looks like a drunk took a crap in it. Going to do like Bill said and carefully chip this junk out. I haven't bedded a rifle before but this will have to be my first. Will search the SC library for proper, Bolt-proof instructions.

This is an excellent trigger and appears to be a snap to adjust. Will print your write up Lito. It is indeed crisp. I would like to find some instructions on stripping the bolt.

Overall I think I dun good. I would really like to have one of those new Sub-minute stocks and am inquiring about the cost. I hate to put much into it until I see how she shoots. Had a very nice email from a Rosterferian Chris concerning other goodies.

As usual, thanks for all you guys help. Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 01:22:32 (ZULU)

OK guys, I finally figured out what I was going to get my Savage for Christmas.  8# jug of Varget.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 02:54:55 (ZULU)

close the bolt, and put the safty on (to half position...locks the pin, but not the bolt).

Remove the bolt.  On the left side, you will see a small stainless piece sticking out of the bolt shroud, on the opposite side from the safety.  Push this in with your finger, and turn the schroud CCW, and it will strip by it self (women should be so easy!)

Put it together... just screw in the firing pin assembly, til that little piece snaps into the slot, and put it back into the gun!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 03:03:56 (ZULU)

Can you tell Bolt is "excited" about his new toy? Come on guy, it's only a rifle! I know what you meant about the "thermo-plastic" bedding that Winchester uses. Mind you, I don't follow drunks around checking their fecal material, but if I did I imagine that's what it looks like. YOU'LL have to check that for me, BOLT! My Stealth has the same "crap" around the recoil lug...pooh(pun intended)!

Paul, got the rifle a jug of Varget for Xmas? You dog! Now they're gonna want primers, brass, and bullitz! Kinda like winning a "free" custom rifle and discovering you have to pay the 11% federal excise tax on your "winnings". Enjoy!

Winchester vs Remington...do we even want to get that started. Me like'm both! ON the other hand we could pick on the Savage...NO, RRUUUGGGGEEEEERRRRRR guys! Don't have any that I know of...at least none that have the intestinal fortitude to fess up...;-)

Have the grandson this weekend. Gotta go...need to visit the shop for a roll of duct tape and some rope.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 03:19:58 (ZULU)

I recently bought a 91/30 sniper.I lucked out and found an original

and not a thrown together look alike. The scope has a calibrated range

drum,the markings go out to 1300. Supposedly the russians used 147gr.

boat tail w/.310 diameter at 2886,don't know the bc. or sd. of this

round.Does anyone here have any info.on handloads that might match

the calibration marks on the scope?

Larry Stine <jackstine@innernet.net>
greencastle, pa., franklin - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 04:46:50 (ZULU)

Brownells STUFF questions:

   Williams Bottom Metal all steel one piece upgrade for Model 70. Good or bad?

   Does a well crowned muzzle need chamfering? If so, are the Brownells chamfering tools adequate?

   Anybody tried the B-Square Bubble Level that attaches to the scope base dovetail? Looks a lot more user friendly than the AntiCant Device since you shouldn't have to raise your head to see it.

This is the last of the Model 70 posts. Will advise on how it shoots when I can afford outfitting it. Again, thanks for putting up with me on this.

Bolt, sleepy and out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 04:56:59 (ZULU)

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 04:59:14 (ZULU)

Im up north from 22nd to 29th Dec, then back down here, let me know if/when you guys are comming.I have a great new receipe for Boar attracting maize(corn) bait. Where did you order the Badger stuff for yer winnie? should have been here by now ( Im getting messed around with some claw mounts(which are US bound) from a German company at the moment, should have been here 2 weeks ago, thats only a 3 week wait and Im pissed off, but 17 weeks is time to cancell the order, bet you already paid huh?)I got your Euro pass back, but they won't issue the Brit one untill I get a gunsafe fitted at my parents new house, then I have to send all the licenses over and they will issue. Ive decided I want an L42 sniper rifle, you ever seen any in Holland? let me know if you do.

Rex buddy, we are gonna have to call you Mr Pig, how many freezers you got? they must all be full by now !!

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 07:54:25 (ZULU)

Range estimation using reticle, compare width of reticle to a chart marked in inches, distance 100yards, from there work out the maths and check it at known distances greater than 100y, Ive only got the chart that is applicable to the L42, the chart is made up as a turret elevation check chart(for 7.26x51) and reticle subtention chart(which should be the same for the L1A1 scope as for all Mk's of no 32)

The first No 32 scopes had no bdc compensation markings on turret, they where painted on or scratched on by the user.This is what happened next, Im not sure which Mod inst or Misc Inst numbers correspond, I do not have the documentation applicable but some copies of the regulations/specifications must be around some where. A modification/miscellaneouse instruction was issued for unit armourers to etch the markings on to the turrets, this probably became the No32MkI( a modification instruction is an instruction to modify/upgrade an equipment, generaly across the board, all eqpt's of that type will be upgraded, a miscellaneouse instruction is a more individual case modification, if this is nessecery to slightly upgrade individual equipments then is the authority to do the job)

The No 32MkII, this is the scope with a pre engraved bdc corresponding to the issued .303 ammunition.

There was a MkIII, but Im not sure of what upgrades where done to arrive at this model.

There was a Miscellaneouse instruction issued, I don't know which number, this was for the drilling and tapping of a screw hole and fitting of a lock screw to lock down turrets on scopes where the tracking of the BDC was found to be non repeatable, the rifle would be then zeroed by the user at 300yards, and hold overs /unders used, the scope was still battle worthy, at a later date the scope would be replaced with a reliably tracking one and the lock screwed model returned to a base workshop for a rebuild and subsequent re issue.

There where so many of these rifles in service, and with so many nationalities that keeping track of all the data/info for all variations would mean starting a damn library. All the info Ive posted  here and previously on these sniper rifles is from one of the following sources: notes I made on my Basic Armourer and Armourer Class 1 U/G course,some Brit Army EMER documentation I have, from details I have been told by my Father, from my memory and from a book about Enfield rifles called Im Dienst Ihre Majestait, (in her/his Majesties service). I know it is probably of little meaning to most, but to the guys interested in the Brit Rifles maybe some of it is usefull, its has been a nice little trip down memory lane, which will prove to be an expensive one as it has once again awakened my interest in the L42A1 and Mk4 No1(T), the search is on. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 08:45:21 (ZULU)

Get the steel replacement trigger guard.  The floor plate, and door are already steel.

Unless the crown is dinged/damaged, don't mess with it... these are very good barrels.  They were made by an outside barrel maker, and are probably Douglas air gauge, or equivelent.

The b-square bubble is easily knocked off, or will catch on something... look in the brownells cat for the level that pops up... it is very handy, can be seen when your eye is at the eyepiece, and folds down when it's not needed.

Don't let this be your last post on the M70... share your joy with the rest of us.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 10:57:42 (ZULU)

Hi Guys,

Just picked up a copy of a UK gun mag (Shooting Sports) and there is an advert for a company who have started up production of the M85 (originally Parker-Hale).  They can either do one as per the original M.O.D. specs or with various calibre, barrel, stock etc. options.

Never handled one myself, but an ex Royal Marine friend of mine said the original M85 out shot and out performed the AI in trials, but the AI was adopted due to politics.  Pete Lincoln, can you confirm, have you had any dealings with the M85?

The advert says for info and enquiries e-mail info@sabredefence.com

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 11:13:40 (ZULU)

Hi Guys,

The saga of my rifle rebuild continues.  With any luck it will be on its way across the sea as I write, but probably not!!

If it is still there, do any of you guys (or girls) have any comments regarding bolt handle extensions.  I originally didn't think I needed one but have since thought it may come in handy when wearing gloves or to prevent fouling with the BC scope cover (which is on at an angle due to the zoom).  My concerns were that the extended bolt may snag more easily (the safety didn't lock the bolt; but does it with a Jewell?).

As always any comments will be appreciated.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 11:25:58 (ZULU)

The M85 is a very capable sniper rifle, and was adopted by the British Army to supliment the stocks of the AI AW series, the reasons that the AI won as the general issue sniper rifle are that it has more options for upgrading and fitting accessories, it hed a better rds fired average before malfunction and the barrels lasted longer before accuracy dropped right off,and is IMHO a better sniper rifle, The M85 was slightly more accurate as it came, the AI's seemed to need shooting some to settle the barrel in, after abour 600 rounds the AI was as good as or slightly better than the M85, Of course knowing our  Bent polititians soft spot for back handers, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there wasn't some corruption  and scratching of backs, one hand washes the other etc in there some where.Still like I said the M85 is a good rifle, it was adopted by the Canadians.

Extended SSG style bolt knob on Rem 700, Ive done all 3 of mine and it is a much better easier bolt operation when modified, if you are using a big scope like the S&B PMII or the NXS then it gets your pinkies out the way too. I did have problems with the damn bolt snagging and getting levered open on 1 of my rifles, not that the thing sticks out and holds you up on bushes or fences, but it caught on some grass and on an xmas tree a few times, this is on my mountain rifle, this has a HS precision thumbhole sporter stock, and this problem has a lot to do with stock arcitechture, this stock is quite slim in the area where the bolt handle sits when closed, leaving the bolt handle sticking out some, I have put an old type safety (bolt locking on safe) on this rifle to prevent this happening (Thanks Fred), it hasn't happened on my other 2 remmy 700's, one in a Hogue stock and one in an AICS and both are fatter in this area, Ive got some more safeties on the way and I will fit em but it isn't nessecary on a fatter or fuller stock, yours should be perfectly OK, if you get bother with it coming open, let me know and Ill send you a safety. I defiunately recomend having an SSG style bolt knob fitted. Gotta run , shift done !! Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 12:23:07 (ZULU)

Goooood  Morning hawgs.  Okay - the raffle payments phase is closed. Now it's just a matter of cutting the tix and getting up with the pastor.  There will be 15 (14 unpaid and 1 voided) tickets that will  NOT included in the drawing pool. I will be posting the winning ticket numbers later on today (If I can get with the pastor).

Later Hogs,

Ken

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 14:13:27 (ZULU)

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 15:16:36 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48895-2001Dec15.html

More about "closing in".  Notice the use of Marine Snipers.  These guys can hit at almost a mile in mountain winds, at high elevation, on odd slopes and at low temps! Amazing!

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$0RKPX3YAAC0Y1QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/16/wtora16.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/16/ixhome.html

Among other sources for this is one of the guys who was with bin Laden up to a short while ago.  This has very good info.  Note how easily Al Qaeda moved around A'stan and over the border to Pakistan.  This says bin Laden did the same thing.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$0RKPX3YAAC0Y1QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/16/wtora116.xml

Preparations to hit Al Qaeda in Yemen.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$0RUSJSYAAC1EHQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/16/wsas16.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/16/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 15:17:58 (ZULU)

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 15:20:16 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 15:35:46 (ZULU)

The 308 cam will work fine on the M25/MK4-M3 setup... it tracks the 168 @ 2600.  The 175 will not track well past 400yds... starting to fly higher as the range increases.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 15:41:30 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 16:29:12 (ZULU)

I was kind of leary about getting it too, but hey it's only a couple bucks so if you don't like it your not out a bundle.  I am sure you will like it though.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 16:30:02 (ZULU)

DON FARMER!!!!!! You've got mail!!!!!!  Hurry!!!!!

With so many different riffles being posted about here lately, this may be a good time to get some posts going concerning necessary spare parts lists for as many riffles as we can think of. Would be a really nice addition to the Hot Tips section and I wouldn't have to keep asking about them.

For us paranoid types, there are a lot of good 3M and MSA respirators for sale on EBAY now.

Later, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 16:50:21 (ZULU)

Thanks once again for the links to good news sources on the War on Terrorism.

Yeah, it looks like Bin Laden may have slipped out of the A'Stan. So what? He is running, and will just die tired in a different country. In the meantime he gets to see his organization go up in smoke, and his people get shot like fish in a barrel. I bet the bastard isn't laughing now!

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 17:03:11 (ZULU)

Fred Hartman

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
omaha, ne, usa - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 19:04:14 (ZULU)

Does anyone know if the length of the HS detachable mag is greater than the standard REM 700 BDL mag (short action)?  Also I have heard that the Win 70 magazine is longer than the REM 700 BDL mag allowing you to seat bullets out farther.  How does the length of HS detachable mag compare to the Win 70 mag?

Reason I am asking.  I want to have George Gardner build me a 300 WSM (on a rem 700 short action).  He uses the HS detachable mag because it's extremely reliable with that caliber.  I want to be able to shoot 220 grn Sierra BTHP's with this rig and have heard that there might be a problem with having to decrease the charge to allow the large Boat Tails to fit.  

Does anyone know if the 220's will fit?  

If not I suppose I could compress the loads (thoughts on compressed loads?), or I could break down and just chamber it in the long action, what do you guys think/reccommend?

Does anyone have a 300 WSM?

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 20:27:45 (ZULU)

Check out the GA Precision bolt handle modification. You can see some good pictures of it in the Rock Review:

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/TheRock.htm

I have had George modify almost all of my rifles this way.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 20:53:40 (ZULU)

Some one posted on here several months back that he used BOTH of those sold by Brownells.  In setting up, he used the low model to check his tip up model.

I have a couple each but only one per rifle

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 22:10:19 (ZULU)

Was proud, left the gun show with only a bunch of MRE peanut butter and jelly. Left the M91 on it's box for someone with carefree funds.

Hope Ken didn't get lost on his way to the preacher's house. Which ever one of you guys or gals wins it will be mighty proud I imagine. Bet it will be a real shooter.

Fred Hartman, I didn't know it got that cold anywhere. You actually go out in it and shoot? What a man!

Waiting to congratulate lucky winner, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 23:01:43 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 23:07:38 (ZULU)

Good luck to everyone.

Tony V. <longdistancereaper@hotmail.com>
CO, - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 23:16:41 (ZULU)

Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
- Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 23:48:16 (ZULU)

Fred

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
omaha, ne, usa - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 23:52:25 (ZULU)

Anti-cant device

The b-square level doesn't mount on the scopes tube it attaches to the pictanny scope mount.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 23:53:41 (ZULU)

M1A Rifle                2001.11.25.095 (Grand Prize)

Tactical Intervention Sling 2001.11.25.100

Mildot M.                2001.11.25.139

Mildot M.                2001.11.25.181

Mildot M.                2001.11.25.083

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 00:36:20 (ZULU)

Thanks much for the info on the problems with the 168 gr GM at 1000 yds. I got several recommendations for Varget but no one here stocks it.  I went with 44.5 gr of 4064 and the 175 Sierra at an average of 2678 fps.  Yesterday, with less than a 5 mph right to left cross wind (still had to apply 4 MOA of R windage), I went 42 MOA up and managed three five shot groups under 6 inches at 1 grand!  It's much easier when the pointed end hits first!!!  

Shoot hard,

John

John in MS <jrr051468@aol.com>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 00:39:17 (ZULU)

I swear, if I had bought all the tickets I would still find a way to loose. :)

Marc (#1 looser)

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 01:15:49 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 01:25:07 (ZULU)

oh well!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 01:26:14 (ZULU)

It looks like bin Laden is no longer A'stan's "guest."  He'll have to go elsewhere for hospitality.  Proper etiquette dictates that he present his new hosts with gifts.  I suggest kevlar umbrellas.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$02QZZNAAADGUTQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/17/war117.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/17/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 01:29:18 (ZULU)

Heartiest congratulations to the winners!

And sincere thanks to Ken for his hard work and dedication to this site.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 01:39:45 (ZULU)

I see my spectactular luck is holding, as per usual. My congratulations to the winner(s)and Ken for his efforts on our behalf. I'm not going to be so cheritable toward the preacher, since he can't seem to draw MY winning ticket...;-)

Can we try a Rabbi next time?

When is the next time? How 'bout a bolt gun in 6.5 X .284?

Just back from the coast. It IS NOT a shooting day. Winds as high as 70 MPH and horizontal rain...guess that's good if you're working on your wind doping, but not sure my Luppies have THAT much adjustment. After all the bullets would be making a "right flank" after leaving the muzzle...

This just in on the Bin Laden caper:

"Isreali Special Forces stormed Bloomingdales Dept. Store, Tel Aviv, this morning after after it's intelligence agency reported that Bed Linen was on the fourth floor...more at 10:00 P.M."

Wonder were the rat is scurrying to now? Dare we hope Iraq?

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 02:57:48 (ZULU)

No, I didn't win the rifle, but I did win a sling from Mike!  Hey, it's a LOT better than what I'm used to winning!

Thanks, Ken, for running the raffle!

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 03:00:01 (ZULU)

Nite children, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 03:19:41 (ZULU)

Anyway - Congratulations go out to the winners!  It was a battle well fought!

Love to hear the update on how the grand prize shoots!

Holiday wishes to all!

Tony V. <longdistancereaper@hotmail.com>
CO, - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 03:33:53 (ZULU)

Congrats to the winner! Take care all.

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 05:19:40 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52336-2001Dec16.html

Some informed speculation on our approach to Iraq.

http://opinionjournal.com/columnists/rbartley/?id=95001608

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 05:54:33 (ZULU)

marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 07:47:14 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 12:32:10 (ZULU)

Congrats to all the winners; use your loot well! Want to hear how that M1A shoots. Many, many thanks to Ken for the hard work.

Now who's up for another?

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 13:25:49 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011217-1401039.htm

Trouble with Islamofascists in Indonesia.  Their government appears poised to do something about it.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011217-17825906.htm

Mop up ops in Tora Bora.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20011217-71606496.htm

http://wire.ap.org/?PACKAGEID=afghanistan

You know, I'd feel sorry for these guys if they hadn't cheered the incineration of my countrymen and sworn death to my children.  But they did and I don't.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 14:34:20 (ZULU)

We had a problem with the Rems locking up in the rain too.  Cheap solution:  Take a 1 foot square piece of GI poncho and a big rubber band to hold it around your scope body.  Let the poncho flow back over your action and down the sides.  This will provide an efficent rain guard for the action.  Rolls/folds up into a small ball or rectangle wrapped with the rubber band and doesn't take up much space in ye ole ruck, pocket or stock pouch.  Ain't real pretty but it's handy as a hatchet and works just fine.  

USMC DMs:  Regrettably, I am not, nor have I ever been a US Marine.  But ... I have good friends that ARE and who are currently still in sniping/related circles.  I read often where the Corps gets blasted for not using this or not building that because so and so has a better idea.  I am on the outside looking in and don't deserve to have an opinion on the matter so I made a call and asked a pointed question about the DMs and why the 14s ?  Got a simple, honest (Marine Corps) answer.  Money.  The USMC does not have (nor has it ever had) the budget of the US Army but they DO have a couple bazillion M-14s in the inventory.  They are not going to T&E and then buy some high speed thing when they can make the 14s work and have armourers that can build/fix 'em for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.  Simple as that.  

GOOCH and KEN may have a different take as insiders themselves but my info was hot off the press yesterday from USMC Precision Weapon Shop/Quantico FWIW.

Watch your sixes,

Brian      

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 15:23:20 (ZULU)

Thanks for the post about the USMC, and the DM. Yeah, I always knew the USMC was a low budget outfit. They take crap that has been worn out, fix it so they can use it for 10 more years. Doing more with less is what they do.

What are your thoughts on why the bolt guns will lock up in the rain? I was really surprised when that happened. The guys that had the problems were in an area that wasn't really all that muddy. Do you think it had anything to do with the type of lube they used? Maybe they didnt have any lube on em? I do know that one of the instructors did lube em after they got the bolts opened, but the rain had slacked off by the time they got the rifles back in service.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 15:50:26 (ZULU)

Krieger will not make stainless sporter barrels.  Reason stated is that they have more tendency to fail in cold weather.

Sal <scozz@prexar.com>
Bangor, ME, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 16:00:18 (ZULU)

It is one of those things that I tell police shooters to be aware of if it rains. Brain has the best idea, cover up.

Maybe someone has a better theory on this.

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 16:26:41 (ZULU)

I must defer to the Chandlers on this.

It isn't money.  A flattop receiver for a M16 and an ACOG, the prescribed Chandler solution, wouldn't cost as much as a reworked M14.

An article was published on this subject some time ago and the Chandler arguments were, as usual, very persuasive.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 17:05:19 (ZULU)

Wasn't there a Norse God named Varget?

Shot the best group-o-my life this morning.  1/2" cold shot group @ 200; fectory rem. bbl. THANKS again to everyone for the info, especially the 175/Varget/Lapua.

Light loads clean bbl:

Everyone I've told this to either looked at me like i'm a lier or smiled like I'm nuts.  No one here responded when I posted about accidently loading light loads and firing them at the end of shooting.

After extensive testing the results are in.  The factory Rem. bbl usually takes 12 hrs. to clean all copper out, but by firing 10 rds. at the end, with the lightest listed load, the bbl. cleans in 5 hrs.  Is it worth it to spent the $3.50 on ten rds. when the're not that accurate?  I usually practice off-hand or rapid fire at 100 (or maybe off-hand rapid fire)with the "cleaner loads".  So it's an excuse to practice skills I tend not to.  Anyone know anything about this?

Teacher

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
Nation's, Capitol, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 17:11:38 (ZULU)

I once saw a C-Span segment where some Senate hearing on the Joint Chiefs was wanting to know why the services spent this and why they spent that and why they didn't do this and do that and didn't they know this and didn't they know that.  The "Gentlemen" from so and so were really giving those old soldiers the business.  Some of the Generals hem hawwed around with their answers and really didn't have much to say . . . but not Krulak.  He blasted 'em.  He pretty much told 'em he had asked for this and asked for that but that his men were not taken care of, so until they did decide to take care of his people, for them to basically get off his ass.  "Thank you General, for the candid response"  

What the hell else did they expect ?

God bless the United States Marine Corps.

Brian    

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 17:19:25 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 17:20:20 (ZULU)

I'm gonna make some enemies.

The reason the USMC is playing with M14's to make DM guns is because there is a thick skulled, old school 2112 in charge of the program!  He's an old friend but....They will end up costing just as much to make as if they went and BOUGHT a good free floating barrel AR15HB flat top with a decent trigger.  Gee I think Bushmaster makes one for about 700.00 fucking bucks!

They want to make jobs for the 2112's so they can keep them around to build across the course guns for the rifle team.  

As usual the USMC is going into territory that the Army tried and just becuase they are Marines they think they can make it work where the army couldn't. Somebody screwed the pooch on the FONS (Fleet operational Need Statment).

Use the fricking old M14's for fricking boat anchors and get the dudes that will use these things a good MODERN gun.

Somebody needs to do a congressional investigation on this.

OUT

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 17:26:47 (ZULU)

If it's taking 12 hrs to clean the lead outta your factory Remington barrel, then you're doing it wrong.  ;-)  My savage barrel is *not* smooth at all, in fact looking at it it looks like it was reamed, as someone posted on here a month or so back, with a corn cob.  If I fire 30 rounds of it it will have some copper streaking.

I just run a patch of something through it to get most of the powder fouling out.  Then I'll dump a ton of Sweets 7.62 solvent on a brush and scrub it up and down the bore for like ten strokes.  I'll wait five minutes, then run a patch up there on a jag to push it all out.  The patch will come out all blue and stuff, and I'll look and almost all the copper is gone.  I'll then scrub it again with the brush and a bunch of Sweets, sit for a few minutes, push another patch through on a jag.  By this time the barrel will show essentially no copper at all.  If it does, one more brushing will finish it, but it usually is done with just two brushings.  I'll then run some patches with something like MPro-7 or CLP to clean out the Sweets, and follow it up with a couple dry patches.  The bore is not spotlessly clean, and it probably took me 15 to 20 minutes tops, with most of that spent waiting.

If it's taking so long I'm willing to bet you aren't brushing, that you are just putting a solvent on patches and pushing them through on a jag until they come out clean.  That will take a long time.  Brushing just works, and I have no reason to suspect it will hurt anything.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
New Hampshire, - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 17:51:37 (ZULU)

-

On Remington bolt lockup???  I can't speak to the gun(s) that locked up... I didn't see them, but I've shot in the rain lots of times, with ammo that got wet... no problem.

I've shot ammo that had the cases oiled (on purpose), no problem... all in Remingtons... go figure!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 18:03:36 (ZULU)

Congrats Moe....

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 18:06:42 (ZULU)

Got out and played with the 300Win mag the other day, got about 25rds down range before I got rained out.  N160 is looking good for accuracy, just need more velocity.  H4831 looking good too, I'll have to get a can of H4831SC to try.   Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 18:12:16 (ZULU)

I sold my Glock 23 and bought a Beretta 92 Brigadier.

Put a down payment on an H&K 91 G3.

Bought a preban Colt lower upon which to eventually build a suppressed AR carbine.

And last night I discover that I am the winner of that great looking (and hopefully great shooting) M1A rifle!

It's GOOD to be the King!

hehehehe!

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 18:14:49 (ZULU)

Merry Christmas.......

Thanks out to Ken and others involved for their kind donation of time in Riffle Raffle II.

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 18:43:39 (ZULU)

On the DM/M14 thing, you and Kevin are right on the money. You took the words right out of my mind. I tried to stay out of this one, because everybody knows my close affiliation with Col. Chandler, and everybody would just think I was following his lead. He burnt Quantico's ass on this pretty bad this year in writting. Those who know me are aware I'm an independent thinker. Norm and I agree and disagree on a lot of things. On this subject we agree, and you agree with us on the real problem.

Very few people really understand the different needs of the competitive paper puncher and the tactical shooter.  Gooch, thanks for being one who does. I agree, this is one time an investigation would be a good thing.

Semper Fi,    

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 18:48:38 (ZULU)

Thanks for your input about why the Remington Bolt Guns had problems in the rain. It had gotten to nearly 100F on the range that day just before the rains hit. Maybe the temperature change played a part?

Brian,

Thanks for the input about your solution to solving the rain problem. That would help keep the mud, and debris out too.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 20:16:36 (ZULU)

Often times while training with my crew, we incure 'rain' via hose or camelback. No problemo.  Did two full days of train in the rain last fall, temps in mid 40's low 50's, again, no problems with bolt lockup, just a couple brass slivers in the eject pin bore.  Basic maintenance.

Congrats Moe, ya lucky %@&$*&@ dog. Thanks Ken for the chance to donate to a worthy cause.

Whatever happened to Sophia Loren & Catherine Deneuve?

Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 20:24:06 (ZULU)

  Congrats Moe, hope you treat my gun well(HA)

Autos for sniper rifles...Just don't think it will work. I agree with whoever said that to make them shoot with a bolt gun the tolerances have to be to tight.

 We have them lock up every year in the D&L shoot because of the fine powdered sand. This stuff gets into every crack and orfice you have. This year it was terrible!! In fact a jaming auto cost a good team first place this year. The bolt on my 6.5x284 no longer has any jewell marks on it. My Berreta nearly locked up from me crawling in the stuff. It felt like a 15lb trigger pull and the clips had to be pulled out of the gun.

Remingtons locking up..

  The other reason this could happen is the gun may have had the lugs squared and trued. If you don't keep them lubed they will flat gawled and lock up your bolt. I nearly ruined the bolt on my first custom gun because I didn't realize this and hadn't lubed them properly.  

 Like lito', I have shot in the rain and the snow and never had a stock or custom Remington bolt gun lock up. In fact yesterday I dumped my rounds out of the mag into the wet snow because I had one round to long and it wouldn't feed. I had just killed a coyote and 4 more were running away.  I picked the round up wet and jamed it home into a "Match chamber" and then  missed, then reloaded with no problems other than a dented ego. So the wet lock up still remains a mystery for me. I can't believe its water.

  Before I duck for cover, I just don't think an auto will shoot with a bolt gun. Not saying an auto won't shoot or that its not accurate enough for sniper work but they tend to be heavier and more prone to breakage. Just my thoughts now ducking for cover!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 20:28:55 (ZULU)

I'm old and I forget things but it knawed at me you guys were having trouble with some remington bolts. How can these things sieze up?

It finally dawned on me. Some remington bolt springs have a very sharp edges. The firing of the rifle seems to cause this edge to dig in and block opening of the bolt. If you are having problems with a bolt after firing siezing up, no matter what the weather, you should consider taking the bolt apart and smoothing the ends of the bolt spring. Simple as that.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 20:32:37 (ZULU)

Any relation?

Sixty-Seven Dead Cats Found in Refrigerator in Cooper City Home

{click my name for the story}

P.S. Check out post #26! LOL!

hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 20:45:22 (ZULU)

Post #26 is a friggin riot!  Maybe I'll use that method until I get another Cat riffle ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 21:01:24 (ZULU)

During good down pours (cow on a flat rock type), I have seen the bolts get tight on Remmingtons. Wipe it down lube it properly it goes away, but I have seen it happen. Our lugs are straight and none of our headspaces are bigger than tight 2s at this time, and it will happen from time to time. (I have wondered if tight headspaces are more prone to this, but I'm not a gun plumber.) I've checked , it's not a brass or debri thing. I know that can cause problems too.

Others have experienced this same thing in the rain, so I guess the "Old Timers" hasn't gotten me yet.  

Okay, I pass  (I love this)

Semper Fi  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 21:16:49 (ZULU)

I don't think you'd find 67 cats in 'Lito's fridge, or freezer. I heard he had a little tiny cat stencil for marking the kills on various rifles he used though.

Pat,

Why are you ducking for cover? I don't think you said anything that wasn't true, or offensive for that matter. How come people try to make Sniper Rifles out of gas-guns, but nobody tries to issue the grunts bolt action rifles? I think Mr. Gooch hit it pretty damn close when he told about the armorer, and his desire to keep the M14's in the system. Personal preferences affect the decision making process.

Mr. Gooch,

Do you know which scope the USMC is using for their sniper rifles? I had heard that they had changed to the US Optics. Any truth in this? Or are they still using the Unertyl?

Moe,

Congratulations! I hope your new toy is a good shooter. Enjoy, and let us know how it turns out.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 21:17:00 (ZULU)

Thanx,

A.B.

Aaron B. <bouser@arkansas.net>
Blytheville, Ar. , U.S. of (Smile when you say it)America - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 21:48:11 (ZULU)

Came home tonight to find 200 fresh Lapua 308 rounds, 1000 175 SMK's and an 8# jug of Varget sitting under the tree...  It's nice getting exactly what you want for Christmas...  Uncle Ed can keep his freekin' Angle food cake, I want some Primers ;-))

One thing I noticed though, I can't get the same lot# for the SMK's.  They came in 500 round cases, but they didn't have any cases of the same lot, and this is a big outfit my wife went to.(she asked for the same lot... God love her)  Will this cause a need for a new load workup when I run into the second case??

Hope ya'll Hawgs are having a good holiday season,

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 22:07:05 (ZULU)

What is used in the field for a spotters tripod? Looking to purchase before april.

thanks,

Tyson

Corpsman

Tyson <tbone40x@aol.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 22:18:54 (ZULU)

(Just kidding about the drunk QC - serious about the mount giveaway).

GOOCH:  Thanks for the "rest of the story".  Norm and Co. do present some good common sense agrguements.  I guess this is one of those  that the MC will have to settle in house.  Maybe they'll listen to outside influence, maybe not.  Who the hell knows.  Seems like it is the MCs business no matter how it goes but I am curious as to how it will all play out.  Do you think the politicians would actually want to get involved in what guns the MC wants its own people to use ?  I hate politics.  When you have people in control that don't do the job, this is what you wind up with - every time.  The guy in the field is the one that suffers.  See my earlier post on headsets for my guys.  It don't seem to matter if it's the USMC or PAPD (Po Ass PD).

Last word I got on the scopes was that US Optics is maintaining the Unertls for now 'til they wear out.  New scope to come but they don't know what it is yet.  Whoever gets the contract will have to commit to matching the BDC cams to the MC ammo (a given) is what I'm hearing anyway.  But then, I ain't nobody either.  So take it FWIW.

Was thinking also, you often times see photos of the SEALs with 14s and didn't Shugart/Gordon have 'em too ?  Like I said, I don't have the inside track here.  I always liked a 14 just because they felt good.  But, I am not qualified to have an opinion on this one and don't have a dog in the hunt.  I do wonder why they still use 'em at all if they suck so bad.  Like you say, those SOCOM guys surely have the money to have whatever they want.  Just common sense curiosity on my part.

Met some 5th Grp. SF at Sniperweek 2000.  They brought Knight rifles and had hell with 'em the whole time.  The 10th Grp. guys had M24s and did very well.

Later dudes,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, December 17, 2001, at 22:45:45 (ZULU)

Moe...Good job on the raffle.  If I didn't already have a M1A, I'd have bought one.

You all be safe and have a Merry Christmas.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 23:05:39 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, December 17, 2001, at 23:34:54 (ZULU)

Anyone wanting to shed some Badger furniture and a Loopy M3, give me a hollar! Most definitely going one piece base this time.

Gonna start working on a riffle ghillie next month. Drew some plans up in my head today during a boring building construction punch list. I fondled some BH drag bags at the show this weekend and there has to be a better way to do this. The wheels are turning, stay tuned.

Time to clean some reels, Bolt out to the shop.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 00:02:30 (ZULU)

He came to the world in the usual way.

But there were planes to catch, and bills to pay.

He learned to shoot while I was away.

And he was talking 'fore I knew it, and as he grew,

He'd say, "I'm learnin to shoot cats like you, dad.

You know I'm gonna learn to shoot cats like you."

And the cat's in the freezer and the silver spoon,

Little boy blue with his 22.

"When you coming home, dad?" "I don't know when,

But we'll shoot more cats then.

You know we'll have a good time shootin then."

Lito's son turned ten just the other day.

He said, "Thanks for the ammo, dad, come on let's play.

Can you teach me to make an eye shot?"

I said, "Not today, I got a lot to do."

He said, "That's ok."

And he walked away, but his smile never dimmmed,

Said, "I'm gonna shoot cats like him, yeah.

You know I'm gonna learn to shoot cats like him."

And the cat's in the freezer and the silver spoon,

Little boy blue with his 22.

"When you coming home, dad?" "I don't know when,

But we'll shoot more cats then.

You know we'll shoot some more cats then."

Well, he came from college just the other day,

So much like Catshooter I just had to say,

"Son, I'm proud of you. Can you shoot some cats for a while?"

He shook his head, and he said with a smile,

"What I'd really like, dad, is to borrow the the new 40X.

See you later. Can I have some ammo please?"

And the cat's in the freezer and the silver spoon,

Little boy blue with his 22.

"When you coming home, son?" "I don't know when,

But we'll shoot some more cats then, dad.

You know we'll shoot some more cats then."

'Lito's long since retired and his son's moved away.

He called him up just the other day.

He said, "I'd like 40X back if you don't mind."

He said, "Yeah right dad, not in this life time.

You see, my Anchultz is in the shop, and 40X is still new,

But it's sure nice talking to you, dad.

It's been sure nice talking to you."

And as I hung up the phone, it occurred to me,

He'd grown up just like me.

My boy was just like me.

And the cat's in the freezer and the silver spoon,

Little boy blue and his dads 40X 22.

"When you coming home, son?" "I don't know when,

But we'll shoot some more cats then, dad.

You know we'll shoot some more cats then."

Harry Chapin Bolt, out! (I just had to do this LOLLOLLOL)

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 00:25:12 (ZULU)

Damn good, except for the fact, that little "Ruggus Rattus" goes everywhere with me (no wonder my love life is in the ditch)... and I'm prowd to say he's my best friend!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 00:38:27 (ZULU)

Coonass- going to Sniperweek this year? Let me know- I may have a couch for you...

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 00:38:45 (ZULU)

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 01:28:42 (ZULU)

Just a few comments...

Bolt lock up from water, dirt, etc. Have never experienced that phenomina stateside. Here in Oregon I shoot and hunt in the rain and have NEVER had a problem. I do clean my weapons and use high grade lube on the bolt lugs...it's just never been a problem. Not to say it doesn't happen.

During my tour in DS/DS we cleaned regularly to keep weapons functioning. Even our .45's were full of grit after a day afield and needed cleaning. Darn dust is like talc, but does't make you smell as well...

Cris, I'm disappointed. You get Lapua brass, Sierra 175's, and 8#'s Varget and you get excited? Here I THOUGHT  we had you converted to the 6.5 X .284. Just yankin' your chain, buddy. Heck, you gotta shoot something! Enjoy!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 01:44:00 (ZULU)

C harlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
ann arbor, mich, usa - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 01:49:49 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$11DW1NYAAEZM5QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/18/wind18.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/18/ixhome.html

Buckley discusses our revised war objectives.  They are ambitious by necessity.

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley121401.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 02:08:35 (ZULU)

Thank you for the heads up on the lot #'s for the SMK's.  I have gone through about 3 lbs of Varget(different lots) and 400 175SMK's (2 llits) and have never had to change my zero.  That's not to say my come ups might not be different, but it made me feel confident that Hodgdons and Sierra are pretty freekin' consistent.  Nice to know someones on the ball.

Bolt,

You're an evil freekin' genious... So, how much is the rifle guille gonna cost you in vet bills???????  

Wes,

I need something to tide me over until I have the loot to send that action to George. Worked 30 Hours OT last week.  4 hours Yesterday, 8 hours tonight and a $600 job tomorrow evening...  I'm dedicated and motivated to make this happen....  Now if I could decide on a damn stock.... and a scope. Man I need to make a decision...I feel more and more like a woman every damn day.

Take care,

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 02:52:13 (ZULU)

Thanks to Ken and everyone that made the raffle possible, especially those that provided the prizes.  Thanks to all and when is the next one?

On the bolt sticking on the Remingtons.  A couple of weeks ago a friend and I were shooting on the range working our way from 200 back to 600 yds.  We spent about four hours shooting different loads.  At the end of the four hours we moved over the silhoute (sp?) range and started racing back through the targets to see who could finish first.  After about twelve rounds my bolt started getting noticeably harder to open.  A little at first but by the time I got to fifteen rounds I did require some effort to open.  I waited a couple of minutes and chambered another round and the bolt was still dragging but not as bad as before.  I finally quit for a for about ten minutes and fired a round and there was a little drag.  

I was shooting Federal GMM 168 factory loads.  I had been shooting these all day along with my reloads without any problem.  I did notice that there were marks on the head of the cases that came out of the chamber when the bolt was dragging.  These marks looked as though the bolt face had slid over the case and sheared a little brass off of the case.  The gun is a 700 PSS straight from the factory.

My theory is that the cases were sticking to the chamber wall, as evidenced by the marks left on the case heads.  I don't understand why.  Another shooter at the range suggested the chamber was sized to the minimum specs.  I don't think this is the case.  

Any comments/help/suggestions would be appreciated.

Also thanks to all who replied concerning the GPS unit.  If you sent me an e-mail I cannot reply at this time.  Excite is transitioning its e-mail system and I cannot send messages.

Sorry for the long post.

Keith <keith37f20@excite.com>
WV, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 02:53:06 (ZULU)

Thanks for keeping us informed. I really appreciate the effort. Best Wishes for a Happy Holiday Season.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 02:54:40 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 02:55:17 (ZULU)

The rifle will be used in F Class and vermin shooting.

Congrads to all weeners :)

Later,

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 03:10:30 (ZULU)

A big thanks to Ken and all those who donated prizes!!

Second,

Youth .22's...

Youse guys might want to take a look at the CZ 452 "scout" rifle.  It's not a "scout" rifle in the Jeff Cooper sense of the word, it's just a CZ 452 downsized for kids.  If it shoots like any of their other .22 riffles, it's fer danged shore a keeper.

Later,

Rich

PS Ken, did you get my e-mail?

Rich S <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 03:38:24 (ZULU)

Later fellers,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 03:42:27 (ZULU)

I passed your message to Norm and Norm Jr. They got a roll from it. I'm glad your keeping them guys squared away and making good mounts. My rail mount might be in that bunch. Norm is buiding me a new Chandler, and it should be coming soon. Here I am, in my 50s and as excited as a kid on Christmas.

Semper Fi  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 04:05:54 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 04:39:03 (ZULU)

CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congrats to all the winners!

Thanks to everyone that made this raffle happen!

Gavin,

I think it was you a couple of weeks ago that asked about a Winchester 670.  I incorrectly informed you about the date of mfg.  The 670, according to a gun value book I saw at the bookstore tonight, listed the dates of mfg for the 670 between 1967 and 1973.  However, my friends .30-06 is a 670-A.  I could not find a listing for this model and I do not know what the differences are.

Pat,

I am having trouble tracking down those Butner guys that were shooting the 6mm-250.  I will keep trying.

Thanks again to all involved iwith the SC site and the raffles.

Semper Fi

PAul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 04:56:28 (ZULU)

 Ok time for my 2 cents on the remington bolt lock up. This past year hunted all day in fog/rain/mist etc. very heavy rain at times. No problems at all with my gun functioning especially at the end of the day when i called upon AT&T (the rifles name) to reach out and tag the buck at 300+. It was standard factory REMINGTON sendero sf in 7mm mag (ya'll can keep yur salvage's and rueegers). Just tryed to keep things slightly dry especially inside the barrel and had no prb's. Everyone take care and have a very Happy Holidays.

Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
PA, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 05:30:08 (ZULU)

So, when do we do another raffle for a Chandler rifle or a Gardner or a .......  I feel lucky!  I should go buy a Buddha statue to sit on top of my monitor just for next time.

Bolt sticking on Rem 700's - H2O in the chamber, water doesn't compress well, brass gets kinda vacuum sealed in the chamber and won't extract.  HK flutes their chambers to aid in this problem.  (I'm not this smart guys - I ran this question by another gunsmith.) Keep the chamber & ammo dry - no stickee!

Cat's in the cradle parody was hilarious.  More, more...

Tony V. <longdistancereaper@hotmail.com>
CO, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 05:40:03 (ZULU)

I guarantee you I'll buy a ticket for that one.  ;-)

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 06:24:02 (ZULU)

Your chamber got shit in it.  Cartridge cases expand (obturate) when the round fires and take on the exact shape of the chamber.  If there is even a small speck of sand in there the case swells around it and can lock up your shit.  You pull the case back out of the chamber and the speck of shit scratches the case.  (lots of techincal terms huh?)

Clean the chamber.  Also you can develop burrs in the chamber if you are slamming rounds in.

OOUT

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 08:03:55 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 10:57:57 (ZULU)

Guys we need to look at this logicaly. Exactly what circumstances are leading to problems.And at which point or state is the rifle showing signs of malfunctioning.Is this limited to Remington 700's? or is it just appearing to be a Rem 700 problem due to weight of numbers in use?

OK what was the problem.

#1. Stiffness on lifting the bolt?( After rnd bieng fired or no firing?)

#2. Resistance to attempted extraction?(Spent Case or Live rnd?)

#3. Misfire?

#1.Problems lifting the bolt handle would not be caused by muck or water in the chamber, as the bolt face rotates around the case head. Muck on the bolt face would possibly however have the effect of increasing the effort required, especialy if the rifle had been fired, due to the case being forced against the bolt face on firing.

As the firing pin/striker spring is compressed when the rifle is cocked the spring misforms, as mentioned before if the spring has sharper edges this may cause the spring to bind with the inner sides of the bolt,a badly internaly machined bolt which is rough or has excessive machining marks could have the same effect.

Certain lubricants become stiff when exposed to extreems of temparature, hence an excessively lubricated bolt/firing pin could pose problems in this area, as could a wet parts freezing up. Ingress of mud, sand or any depris in and around the bolt and firing pin area, locking lugs and recesses and inside the action race ways will also cause problems, as would rust.

#2. Problems extracting a round or fired case(pulling bolt to rear)could have several causes, water(or and liquid) in the chamber will be compressed upon firing of the rifle as the case expands to achieve obturation, this hydraulic effect may cause difficult extraction, as would any muck, notoriouse for this is sand or grit in the chamber, as mentioned before, the case expands upon firing, it obturates to the chamber, trapping any dirt between outer case wall and chamber wall, this causes extraction problems, it is relall ely easy to diagnose as a gritty feeling may be evident upon chambering a round or attempting extraction, also scratch marks will be evident on an extracted case and in extreem cases whitness marks where the case has expanded over the obstruction can be seen.Ice could also cause difficult extraction in a wet rifle in freezing conditions, for obviouse reasons.

#3. as all the above for the firing pin binding with the bolt making difficult bolt operation could cause a miss fire due to a reduced strike on the primer, this is in most cases evident due to the reduced indentation to the primer(though by no means always).

Solutions:

Inspect the Firing pin spring and inside of the bolt for sharp edges and roughness, remedy where nessecary.

Do not over lubricate and use a lubricant applicable to your operating conditions, In particularly low temparatures and in a dusty environment it maybe advisable to not lubricate at all, or use a lubricant specificaly designed for such conditions and then as sparingly as possible(i would be tempted to only put a spot of lubricant on the locking lugs to prevent them galling).

Mud gutters or slots can be machined in certain places to help deal with any muck in the action.

Tape the end of the bore, or use a muzzle cover to prevent ingress of water.You can even put duck tape over the loading/ejection port if nessecary, just make sure it comes of quick enough when you need it to.

Maintain a strict cleaning routine, and take good care to avoid unnessecary dirtying of the rifle.

Ensure that ammunition to be used is kept clean and dry, I stopped using these elastic ammo carriers that fit over the but stock for just this reason.

High pressures due to over loaded hand loads will also possibly cause stiff bolt/hard extraction.

All the above(except maybe the sharp edged spring) is probably applicable to any bolt action sniper rifle in use any where in the world today, and doubly so for semi automatics.

Remember that the rifles we are talking about here are precision instruments, many with exact, tight chambers and tollerances kept to a minimum, they need to be looked after accordingly.

If you want a "trench gun"that you can throw in the mud, get wet and frozen and still expect it to work flawlessly you are probably better of with a Mauser 98, Enfield N4 or a Springfield.

I have personaly never experienced any problems using a Remington 700 (or a Winchester M70 for that matter)in  very wet conditions, and It can rain real hard in the Scottish highlands, and that includes falling in streams completely emmersing the rifle, I don't carry the rifles in a slip, like many do when stalking, the things are exposed to the elements from 1 hour before dawn until 1 hour after dark and some times all night and then all week in realy shitty miserable conditions at times.I always carry a cleaning kit, and when sat waiting, i make sure the rifle is clean.Remember when firing a lot, slivers of brass can also work their way in to areas and cause problems.

I had one occurence of ammo carried in the elastic slip over butt ammo thing getting mucky and finding its way into the magazine and then the chamber, this happened in the dark at night, It caused a hard extraction, since then have stopped carrying ammo in these devices and bought a decent waterproof ammo wallet(snipers wouldn't be using these elastic things any how).

Prevention is better than cure.

Was out hunting in snow last night, shame the piggies decided to stay home and not join me, by 02.00hrs I figured I might as well give it up as I had to be up for work at 06.00.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 11:45:44 (ZULU)

this account appears to work....

Ken Hunter <MarxArmory@aol.com>
testing, Testing, Testing Again - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 12:18:52 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57403-2001Dec17.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 13:46:10 (ZULU)

 You can use the duel X as a range finder for any target you want. If you have a leupold and want to range a coyote put it on 10x and you lay the cross hair on his back and the tip of the duel X will be on the bottom of his chest at exactly 300yds. If he his bigger than the space between the tip and the cross hair he is under 300yds if he is smaller than he is more than 300yds.

 That is the method that I used and still do today for hunting. It tells me all I need to know. If you want to range anything and you have a varriable power scope with a duel X cross hairs all you have to do is set up the object you want to range, go back to a certain yardage, find what power it fits into the area of the scope you want to range with and record it.

  Thats probably as clear as mud but hopefully you will get the idea. If you want to range a 9" object put a 9" object out and go back to 300yds and dial the scope until the object fits between the crosshairs and the tip of the duel X and your at 300yds. If its on 10x or whatever you know that at that power a 9" target will be at 300yds if it fits between the crosshairs and the tip of the duel X. Hope this helps.

Bolt..

 Loved the song, it was a hoot!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 14:26:08 (ZULU)

SHOOTING WET:  Mike got me all worked up but I digress.  Seriously, the only time I've seen a Rem lock up is when a round was fired, ejected and another round chambered in the rain or otherwise wet.  If a round is already chambered and fired and no followup shot is needed or the chamber does not get water inside, it seems that all is okay.  I think there may be something to the water in the chamber/vacuum thing because once it was cleared, it didn't happen anymore and the rifle was found to be mechanically sound.  No brass shaved, no chamber burrs, no nothing.  The only variable was the induction of water to the chamber.  The rifle was fine before and after the water got in.  The poncho thing fixed the problem.  IMHO I think Peter's breakdown on the whole thing was well done.  

PETER L:  Will put the package in the mail TOMORROW.  Got the last piece yesterday.  Merry Christmas.

Watch your six,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 14:51:02 (ZULU)

IT'S GOD'S RESPONSIBILITY TO FORGIVE BIN LADEN

IT'S OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ARRANGE THE MEETING

     * United States Marine Corps *

Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 14:57:43 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any experience with either Brown or Graffunder?  Chuck likes Brown.  Any other opinions or other advice?

Thanks!  

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 14:58:32 (ZULU)

I didn't mean to raise so much hell on the sticky bolt in the rain question. The guy who asked that question sure got responded to though.

How about something difficult? Anybody want to argue the "corollas effect"?

Just kidding.

Semper Fi

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 15:03:24 (ZULU)

I had no idea that my questions about the sticking Rem 700 Bolts would cause such a reaction. Thanks to everyone that offered ideas about the possible causes, and their solutions to this problem.

Conditions that day were HOT. Near 100F before the afternoon thunderstorms hit. We didn't stop shooting, at least not if you could still see the steel. There was no place to go to anyway. Nobody had anything to cover the actions of their rifles with. The rifles that had a problem started off with bolts that were really stiff after firing, and after a few more shots they got to a point that they were almost impossible to open. Extraction once the bolt was open was not a problem. The instructor had a big tool kit in his truck, and those guys went to his truck for maintenance on the rifles. I dont know what they did other than lube the rifles. No more problems with the rifles, but the rain had about stopped when they got back on line. The rain was re-inforcement to the lecture about the affects of weather on the shooter, and his equipment. At least it cooled us down some! A couple guys almost stroked out from not staying hydrated.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 15:16:56 (ZULU)

The first raffle was for a "Rock" and it sold out very quickly! I have one and have seen and shot about five others. (The published accuraccy claim is 1/2 moa, but thay all actually shoot 1/4 moa). It is a great rifle with a lot of the good stuff included (Badger bases,rings, floorplate).

I actually flew out to MO and watched George and Eric of GA Precision at work. It takes ALOT more time and machining steps to make a quality rifle than I could have imagined. No skimping or oval chambers there!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 15:20:51 (ZULU)

Cat shooter.  I was taught that the act of hammering rounds into a bolt gun, particluary when they are being fed out of the magazine, could grr up the chamber.  It was the projectile that did the damage not the brass if the feed angle was off a little.  Can copper burr steel?

Now, I have seen MANY M40's and M24's have these bolt problems.  Remember, many of the guns I have seen do this have been in situations that many of these guys would never subject their guns to.  The most common issue was dirty chambers.  Usually a chunk of training area worked its way into the chamber.  This is why I am a big fan of carrying one of the various types of pull through cleaning rods to just pull through the chamber and bore after a stalk or other "near turf" experiences that snipers often experience.

Seen over tightened/too long forward action screws on M700s cause problems with bolts too.  

Out here  

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 15:46:46 (ZULU)

Corollas  effect?  What the hell sniping got to do with Toyotas ?  But now that you mention it, the Taliban and Northern Alliance both seem to like 'em . . . Can the Readers Digest version of the Corollas effect be summed up in the fact that you just have to lead 'em a little more if they're driving one ?

Best regards Capt.,

Brian K. Sain  

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 16:35:58 (ZULU)

Okay I have a "friend" who is renting a house and owns some guns.  What is the best way other than a safe for storage of them.  The place is a little small and I'm sure the landlords wouldn't want a safe bolted to their floor etc.  Short of the obvious answer of moving and buying a house (not really an option yet), what would you guys do?

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 17:24:52 (ZULU)

Congrats on winning the rifle.  What a way to start the holidays!

If you guys want to read some funny stuff, check out:

http://www.hk91.com/boards/Forum2/HTML/001283.html

Page four is the best.  Is there a psychiatrist in the house?

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 18:00:47 (ZULU)

Dubyah is about to take care of some chores that we've been putting off.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20011218/ts/u_s_again_placing_focus_on_ousting_hussein_1.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson121801.shtml

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 18:14:16 (ZULU)

Disfuctional, who us, because we like shooting things? I think I found the right disfunctional family then. Funny, I got a new lady (did an upgrade),and she is still getting used to me. I guess it's because most guys my age are playing golf or bowling. She keeps asking me questions like, "Do all your friends keep a loaded assault rifle (AK-47) under the bed? or loaded pistol magazines behind pictures and in the medicine cabinet?" I said, "My friends, Yea, and most of them are cops and Marines too". My favo-rite question is, "Why do you own over 50 rifles?" Everybody knows the answer to that one, don't they?  

The only thing she put her foot down on was, I can't keep my Chandler Rifle in the bed. Man, I hate choices like that.

She has also found out that local gun shows are really social events.

Hmmmmm, you raised a good question Brian, What is the mil lead on a Toyota crammed full of Taliban Tangos hauling ass on a mountain road from a B-52 strike? Aren't the mysterys of life grand? Damn, to be 20 and back in the Corps right now!

Later man,

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 18:52:33 (ZULU)

I know you said "not a safe", but then you implied it was because the landlord wouldn't want it bolted down.

I say, use a safe.  But instead of bolting it down, just get some lead ingots and put 100 lbs of lead in the bottom of the safe.  Or, to make it even more unlikely that somebody will haul off the safe, but 200 lbs of lead in it.  ;-)

As far as the next question, "where do you get 100 lbs of lead", well, just go down to your local tire stores and ask them if you can buy a bucket of the used tire weights that they pull off your wheels when the re-balance them.  Then melt them down.  I use a steel pot over a Coleman stove, outside.  When they are molten, clean up the steel clips and crap that's floating on top, and use a steel ladle or something to pour the lead into an ingot mold.  You can get a 1 lb ingot mould from Lyman, or just make one out of wood.  I used to use a piece of 2x4 with some rough ingot cavities carved into it with a chisel.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
New Hampshire, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 19:09:42 (ZULU)

My local gunshop has put up some brand new riles in .270 for sale at $200. The rifles look like Rem 700 Classic, Win M70 action, M700 bolthead, Browning higned dropdown mag. I disassembled the "M70" bolt and quality looked good, better than Winchester. At this price they look like a bargain. I think I'm going buy one or two. I have no experience with these rifles. Are they worth the money?

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 20:12:18 (ZULU)

    25 grs Varget, 69 SMK, Win brass, Federal 205 gold medal match primers.  Average vel. 2824 fps.  ex.spread 0044,  sd. 0016  5 shot group size .331 and measured twice, three times, with Starrett micrometer.  I need to get es and sd down.  Will try a different primer as Varget just doesn't give the lowest numbers when teamed up with the Federal Match primers.  I've noticed this in .308, too.

    25 grs Reloder 15, 69 SMK, same components as above.  Average vel. 2855 fps.  ex.spread 0028,  sd. 0010.  5 shot group size .408 and overall length for all cartridges was 2.245-2.250 so they could be run through an AR mag too.  The Winchester will take a cartridge at 2.80 or a hair longer in the mag box and will chamber.  Other loads for the day grouped in the .6s and .7s using 55 gr Nosler Solid base bullets because that's what I had left over from the Swift days.  I am trying for 2950-3000 fps with the 69SMK.  Rifle equipped with hex drive action screws, Badgers, and Leupold 4.5-14/40mm inch tube mildot scope.  Thanks for the advice 'Lito....I love the Oehler 35P.  Wish I still had that Winnie Model 67, but there's a big gun show coming up in Jan.  Best Holiday wishes to all.

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 20:26:38 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 20:28:08 (ZULU)

.....................................

Left-handed shooters......I just found out after installing my Butler Creek rear flip-open scope cover that my bolt will not clear.....what do you other lefties out there use to overcome this ???

I just got finished putting together a new Rem700VS left-handed .308 and will try it out with some loaded Fed. Match 168SMK ammo this weekend if the wind dies down enough.....

....and "no" I have no clue to why a Rem bolt won't open unless its chamber or bolt face is extremely dirty !!!

Once again.....its good to be back !

JR

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Va., USofA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 20:33:34 (ZULU)

<<My favo-rite question is, "Why do you own over 50 rifles?" Everybody knows the answer to that one, don't they? >>

Sure. "'cuz I haven't put the cash together yet for the 51st!"

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 21:04:31 (ZULU)

What are you guys paying for a 8-lb. keg of Varget?  Local store has it for $110 plus 8% tax.  OK or no?

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 21:27:00 (ZULU)

http://www.nypost.com/images/front121801.gif

I'll have to step in for al Qaeda on this one.  After a couple of months of sustained bombardment by the United States of By God America, a guy could get a little sniffy.  

Yemenis hit al Qaeda.  That is probably a smart move.  Check out the links.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011218/wl/attacks_yemen_al_qaida_1.html

Hamas rejects Arafat's call to lay low and let him shovel more of the same old bullshit.  They declare that they will target Americans.  

Some people insist on learning the hard way.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/12/18/News/News.40139.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 21:27:51 (ZULU)

OK, ABOUT 1975 i BOUGHT A NEW 700 REM. BDL IN 300 WIN MAG. FROM DAY ONE IT WAS HARD TO OPEN AFTER 3 OR 4 SHOTS IT WOULDN'T HARDLY OPEN AT ALL. I HATED IT BUT IT SHOT GREAT. A FRIEND OF MINE LIKED THE WAY IT SHOT AND OFFERED ME $150 AS IS! (HE STILL HAS IT BY THE WAY AND PUTS A FEW DROPS OF OIL ON THE BOLT FACE EVERYTIME HE SHOOTS IT!). ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO ANOTHER FRIEND BOUGHT A 30-06 WITH THE SAME PROBLEM. WE DISASSEMBLED IT AND FINALLY AFTER MUCH ANGUISH DESCOVERED THE SHARP SPRING END PROBLEM. WE SMOOTHED THE SPRING AND IT WORKED LIKE A DREAM. I'VE FIXED ABOUT 10 OTHERS OVER THE YEARS. READ MY LIPS TAKE HEED i'M TELLIN YOU THE TRUTH. LAST POST ON THE MATTER!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 21:38:38 (ZULU)

Thanx for the response on duplex reticle range-finding. Going out to the pasture now to work on that project.  Helps to know that someone else has tried that method.

AB

Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Blytheville, Ar., U.S. of (Smile when you say it)A - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 22:20:48 (ZULU)

-

Dew Man... that's not a bad price.  The mail order wholesalers are cheaper, but you gotta pay shipping and HAZMAT, which together, will add about $20 to $25 bucks.  So take that into consideration when someone tells they get it for $95.

-

Jerry Stordahl... try Rem #7 1/2, and Winchester WSR primers... both are match grade, have harder cups, and are cheaper than the Fed 205M.

-

Gooch-ster... "Can copper burr steel?"  No... not under ANY circumstances... consider the chamber of a 30 cal machine gun... if it was posible, the chamber would fail in 30 seconds.  Metalergical law is hard metal scratchs soft... it can never be the other way.  Even when the bullet is shot at a heavy steel plate at twice the speed of sound, the plate will dent from the force, but not scratch or burr... your friend led you astray.

-

Jim, and Brian.

Corolas effect - "The amount of lead you must apply to a speeding Toyota full of Chicken 'stans, times the latitude/divided by the longatitude/ divided by the quarting angle... plus the length of the engin block = Bingo!  An instant bonfire :))

Brain, the real answer is "I have a deposit on the 51st." ;)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 22:21:you'ZULU)

If anyone has this edition of "White Feather" (C 1997 First Printing April 1997 Hardbound Edition ISBN 1-885633-09-2) please look in it to see if the Carlos and the Chandlers signed it or if their signatures were printed in all the books. Should be on the page with their pics on it.

Educationally challenged at the present, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 22:25:08 (ZULU)

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 22:25:25 (ZULU)

Those signitures were printed in the book. That was done for ease and the fact by that time Gunny was having a tough time and could hardly sign his name at all that well.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 22:33:21 (ZULU)

Brian , I should have most of all the kit I wanted to send you together by the w/end, some of it is out of stock and Ill post it at a later date, so watch the post box in the next couple of weeks.

I spent the last 3 1/2 hours processing and preparing meat for freezing, it smelled so good I couldn't resist frying us a couple of steaks, slurp! There is still room in the freeza, so I need some more pigs(just bought my 3rd freezer).

I am seriously toying with the idea of rebarreling my S/A Rem 700 to 450 marlin,(was going to do the L/A to 9.3x62, but now Ive seen the stock, its staying as a 30-06 mntn rifle, has any body got any comments on this or any advice? It will be my short range pig sniper.

I already opened the bolt face and its got a Sako extractor, the 450 head fits, I just need the barrel, it will have to be the only rem 700 in this caliber, or did any one beat me to it, I know, not sniper type caliber, but an interesting conversion all the same. pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 22:35:09 (ZULU)

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 22:36:38 (ZULU)

Mine is:

(C 1997 First Printing April 1997 Hardbound Edition ISBN 1-885633-09-2)

First, there is a beige 3.5" x 5 paper pasted on the red page (opposite the hard cover)... it says

"Special edition, autographed by the author, as well as Carlos Hathcock himself... the legendary White Feather... the last American hero".

That red page has all three signatures (Hathcock, and both Chandlers) in REAL ink... then there is the photo page with all three signatures (whoops) - PRINTED... mine has the same edition, and numbers as yours.  Hope that helps.

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 23:05:38 (ZULU)

Cat is right. There were some special editions put out with a sticker inside the first red page with the real signiture of Gunny. You said the page with the picture of Gunny and the Chandler Bros. together. Those are printed signitures. I have a copy of both. ISBNs are the same. The only difference I know of is the sticker.

Semper Fi,

Finger  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 23:41:42 (ZULU)

Wideners has 8 lbs Varget for $120 shipping and haz mat included in price, so $110 is pretty good.

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 23:50:42 (ZULU)

When you get the gun dirty, slamming dirty brass into the chamber is bad mojo.  The brass case acts as a lap and the sand and other grit is most definitely harder than the steel of the barrel.  I'm sure most people know this, but I don't think it hurts to point it out.  The barrel makers here will tell you that they use fairly soft steel.  Semantics thing, I know.  Regarding projectile impacts, from everything I'm currently reading, if you get the velocity high enough, the impact becomes hydrodynamic, with both materials splashing.  This is how soft DU defeats hard as hell ceramic composites.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 00:37:36 (ZULU)

And how are all you guys getting all this dirt and sand in your chambers... I've heard more about your dirty chambers, and dirty/gritty ammo in the last 24 hours, than in the last 4 years... remind me not to buy any of your sticks :((

DU does NOT scratch Ceramic... it shatters it.  Not the same dynamic/ apples and oranges.  You can shatter a diamond with a hammer, and the diamond is about 300 times harder.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 01:02:58 (ZULU)

Jim you teach the class at Blackwater with the Chandlers don't you? If so I'll see you in April. I signed up last week. It was a Christmas present from my wife. She also got me a book from IBA but I'm not sure which one. I believe it's one of the Death from Afar series. Christmas is good for me this year. I'm getting my 300WM rebarreled and tuned from my father-in-law and also a gunsafe from my mother. Also bunches of other goodies from Sinclair International from my father and brother. I really like Christmas :)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 01:10:24 (ZULU)

Yea, that's me. I'll see you in April for Precision 1. Sounds like your having a great Christmas.

Semper Fi

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 01:33:06 (ZULU)

LOL

Seriously- what FAA course you talking about? Already sounds like I just don't want to know...

I can ask on the pass thing too....In Yankee version- your obviously superior range skills are very much in demand. Translated into coonass- hell them fellas mighgt need somebud who kin show up here and keep an eye on dem things....

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 02:11:26 (ZULU)

Rotate the rear cap so that the release button is down, just to where the bolt will clear.  It's still easy to hit it with your thumb, but will let the bolt by....

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 02:19:38 (ZULU)

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 02:34:18 (ZULU)

I built a box a little larger than the gunsafe out of 2X6's put plywood in the bottom and filled it with concrete. I put plywood on the top, then covered the top and bottom plywood with carpet. I then trimmed it with nice wood. Next I bolted the safe to it. Looks nice and added a few hundred pounds.  Added benefit if it floods you have about 8 extra inches of protection.

Badgers:

Needed to remove my scope from my stick but, just hated to because it was right on.  I grew a set this afternoon and took it off, did what I needed to and put it back on. Shot it this evening and it was only 1" off on the elevation!

Congratulations Moe on yout new toy. Merry Christmas!

Would also like to see a "Rock" for the next raffle.

Out

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!! - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 02:36:34 (ZULU)

Kent did they teach you that technical stuff in the Marines?  I think my Army training helped me understand it. ;)  I will check the cases again and the chamber this weekend also.  Are you going to have rain, fog, and winds that blow in two directions at the same time at your match?  If so I can put to use what you taught me in the LRR classes.  

Thanks

Keith <keith37f20@excite.com>
WV, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 02:36:58 (ZULU)

You will enjoy Precision1 at Blackwater.  I learned a lot at 1and2.  Jim is a great instructor and a good guy.  If your lucky you can stay up and lift weights at 3:30am.  Remember that Jim?  The instructors and usually the students are so interesting, you end up staying up way to late.  I think my friends and I averaged about 4 hours a night.  It is great fun and I highly recommend going.

Scott

Scott <Scottmp@augusta.com>
Augusta, GA, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 03:34:37 (ZULU)

Okay - all owners and prizes have been notified.

However -

We have amongst us - quite a Gentleman that is in the spirit of the season. The holder of ticket number: 2001.11.25.083 was the winner of the 3rd mildot master. This turned out to be: Rich S. [RS1441@aol.com] - a regular hog on here.

Rich S. contacts me and says that he already has a mildot master - that he won in the last raffle. Furthermore - he'd like to pass it onward to one of the hogs that didn't win anything.

So - what we did was have Rich S. pick a number: He picked 2001.11.25.071. I checked the raffle registry - and that one turns out to be: Charles S., email:  dpms223@aol.com

So - Charles S. - CONGRATULATIONS - YOU'RE THE WINNER OF THE 3RD MILDOT MASTER. PLEASE CONTACT ME VIA EMAIL

If any of you hogs know him - have him get in touch with me.

thanks hogs

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
testing, Testing, Testing Again - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 03:42:43 (ZULU)

http://www.gunsamerica.com/imgview.cgi?fname=./upload/976124577.jpg&title=Win+70+SS+HVY.BRL..308+varmint&gun_number=976124577

Nite, Nite children, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 04:09:15 (ZULU)

Doc King, fairly well caught up on Government contracts.  I should have an extra for you to test soon.  I talked with George Gardner yesterday and he said he was building a new rifle for you.  I will send him one to put on your rifle in his next batch of slings.

On loads for the 175 M118LR.  Guys just go to either Varget or IMR4064 and you will get everything you want and more in the 308 Win.

Pablito, you only have 50. I thought you would be more rounded.LOL

Leslie, I hear you won the sling I gave for the raffle.  I think you already have atleast one of my slings but know you dont have one of the  New M24 slings.  Thats the one Doc King was asking about.  Its the one I have been selling to SOTIC as an upgraded M24 sling.  It will fit any bolt gun with Uncle Mikes Detachable swivel mounts (99% of all rifles).  Email me if this will work for you or just tell me which sling I make you want. I have not sold any of the M24 slings to anyone but the Army so only Mike S., Marty of Badger and George Gardner have the M24 slings.  They held me down and made me cough them up.LOL  I have not decided if I am going to market this sling or not.  To quote someone involved in the M40A3 project "Too much technology to let out"  Just a joke but a true quote and about a scope mount.  It will go on the market after the first of the year.

To the man asking about slings in competition.  Use a Turner if you are in NRA Service rifle class and I think either my Quick Cuff or Slipe Cuff (Also out after 1-1-02) will beat it hands down in comp.  Everyone that has shot against me with a 1903 sling has switched to mine.

Had MRI on back today will have to wait for the results a few days.  CT Scan on Thursday

Undude/Mike

MikeMIller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 04:35:11 (ZULU)

The same way it got in the crack of my ass, my rats, my nose, my mouth, my canteen, my arm pits.  All part of a near turf experience.

Remember 'yote.  I taught this shit since 1982 with only a few years off for good behavior so I've seen some studs and some fucked up guns.  Add to that the school guns are used and abused quite a bit so they see more shit than about any other group.

Maybe those burrs were caused by improper cleaning i.e. steel cleaning rods......hmmmm

Out

gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 04:49:23 (ZULU)

I could use your opinion on a product I developed for shooters. I don't know if there is a real market for it but it would help to know if you thought there could be. I am an optics expert of sorts, and developed a means by which I can put a shooters prescription (for glasses or contacts) into their binoculars, spotting scopes, and in some cases scopes. I have a patent pending, and also have special lenses with no prescription, with special lens coatings and tints for high contrast, and lowering eye fatigue for prolonged viewing or shooting sessions. I also mount photo chromatic lenses to scopes and such. This will not effect the optics of the scope as it mounts on the rear. In bright light it will darken and of course lighten in low light. I have not seen anyone making or fitting these kind of high end lenses to optics, let me know if you know of anyone doing so. I also have an anti-reflective coated lens that works great. Let me know what you think, is there a market out there? Is there something along this line that you would like to see but is not available.

I am a shooting nut and developed these things for my shooting pals and myself. I love a Remington 700 and a 308 at 800 yards, great fun!

Thanks for your time,

Don

Don <mildrum@gamewood.net>
Va, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 04:52:22 (ZULU)

What Lito said.  I "acquired" a copy of the White Feater book from a long since retired Captain of my dept., I think he 'forgot' he loaned it to me.  It has the Carlos signed sticker on the red page, complete with signature texture and Chandler signatures. Copied signatures on the photo page.  May have to offer to return it to him one of these days.    Maybe !!

Doug

XXX :) <diver1@acronet.net>
x town, US of A - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 05:57:35 (ZULU)

      I have a question that maybe someone has an answer to. I heard the other day at work that if you reload your own ammo and use it for self defense and you have to use it and end up killing the intruder, you are looking at a law suit.  Something to the fact that you felt that the factory ammo isn't good enough so you took it upon yourself, who is not a professional to load your own.

      The person that told me about this said that he read it in an article from a well known Law Enforcement Defensive tactics instructor.

      Your comments will be greatly apreciated.

Chris Ward <elkhunter007@hotmail.com>
Hermiston, Oregon, U.S.A. - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 08:29:33 (ZULU)

CCI Bench Rest 4 primers work VERY well for me with Varget in my 223. Very low ES with weighed charges( in the order of 20fps). I have had very good reports about the 77gr sierras loaded to mag length if your twist rate is up to it. (1 in 8)

Mark D

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 11:20:31 (ZULU)

I'll give you my opinion, for what it's worth... ... I am an optics expert... I have consulted for Nikon, Zeiss, Columbia University, and a few others, and designed the first laser system to treat retinal eye diseases, at Columbia U.

I would be surprised if that patent goes through.  Putting corrective lenses into optical instruments has been done for a long time... in fact, for so long that I believe it is now considered as "Public art" by the patent office, and not patentable... also the problem of what to do about prescriptions that have cylinder in them, along with the spherical... as you focus the eyepieces... the astigmatic corrections would go around in circles getting 2x worse every 90 degrees, because most good bins have individual focus, and the user is constantly turning the eyepieces.

Since shooters need to use glasses to shoot anyway (for eye safety), it makes sense to have the shooters corrections in their glasses (so they can see the rest of the world too)... so corrections in their shooting scopes would be redundant... and why would a shooter that has to wear regular glasses (I am myopic, and wear glasses) want to take their regular glasses OFF, and then put on neutral safety glasses to shoot, then take off the safety glasses, and put back on their regular glasses.

As to photocromic additions... the scope companies work over time to reduce optical loses, and to brighten scopes, and to make larger objective to catch more light, why would someone pay top dollar for a good spotting scope, and then block out 3/4s or more of the light.  I've been shooting for aver 40 years, and I've heard guys complain the their scope was dim... but I have NEVER heard anyone complain that their scope was TOO BRIGHT???

-

Cris Ward...

That "Well known Law Enforcement Defensive tactics instructor" is Massad Ayoob, a very skilled instructor... but it was written back in the 80's, and things have changed.  As long as you are loading conventional ammo (not tipped with Nitro), the simple defence is that it is your target ammo (IPSC ammo etc), and it was what was in the gun at the time (or some varient of that).

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 12:02:35 (ZULU)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 12:12:55 (ZULU)

As any cop knows, you can be sued for anything at anytime, but Cat is right on this one. That suit probably won't be successful at all, unless you are loading something strange (cruel & unusual). Of course, I am down here in an American state. No telling in some other places. In North Carolina, we can still shoot folks in the process of breaking into our homes, if we believe our lives are in danger. It's not the same all over.

Rob,

David (I call him Fire Dog) is good people. What class is he going to take in April?

Semper Fi,

Finger  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 13:14:32 (ZULU)

I just read something in the January 2002 Guns and Ammo. According to Jeff Cooper who has a monthly column called "Cooper's Corner." It is a column wherin he makes some commentary (usually tongue in cheek type) and relays some curious gee wilikers type info. Anyway one of these was related to sniping and an FBI statistic that states: "the longest police sniper shot they (the FBI) have recorded was attempted at a range of 97 yards."

Two things immediately jump out at me from the brief paragraph he wrote. FIRST: Does his use of the word "attempted" mean it was unsuccessful?"

SECOND:Is that distance true? If so I would have to rethink my notions regarding the whole sniper concept as it pertains to LE. Specifically the occasional discussion that happens here on SC regarding the similarities or lack there of between LE and Mil snipers. I mean I always knew there were obvious differences between the two but perhaps there a more than I had considered.

Now me not being a real sniper nor playing one on TV automatically makes me unqualified to offer commentary, but I am something of a student and am curious about the comments those of you in the game have.

Oh, and yes, I do know I can't believe everything I read.

Just wondering

Semper Primus!

Mark

Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
NY, Not cold yet........I think it's sneakin' up on us though. - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 13:29:34 (ZULU)

He'll be taking the Precison 1 class again as a refresher and he's bringing a different rifle so he can get all his dope set on that one. We've never met in person but have been talking on the net for over a year now. With our common hobby and being in the same profession we just hit it off. I can't wait to actually meet him in person. The course sounds great too. I'm trying to talk another friend of mine to go to it with me so we can drive down together. He doesn't feel he's up to it yet, even though I've seen him shoot and I know he is. I might have him breaking though because he asked for the Blackwater site and some more info. How fast do the 1 classes usually fill up so I can tell him? I know I'll be there.

Semper Fi!

Rob

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 13:33:19 (ZULU)

I believe the distance of the shot taken by the U.S. Park Police at the Washington Monument incident some years ago was approx. 400 yards, but that would be very rare. I believe the average police shot is still about 75 yards.

As far as differences between military and police snipers, markmanship fundementals are always the same. Their missions are different, unless the military snipers are used in a police/peacekeeping role somewhere, which has become more often lately.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 13:43:27 (ZULU)

Been several shots over a hundred and one or two over two hundred.  FBI don't keep stats on this shit.  Long time problem.  For forever we have been told 75 yds, was the average.  We have yet to find the person inside or outside of the FBI that came up with this stat - although, it is reasonably accurate from what we have been hearing from PDs everywhere that will talk about such things.  Working on that very thing right now for ASA.  americansniper.org  Polling PDs all across America.  Time consuming.  

Practice day, gotta go.  Watch your six, Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 14:15:18 (ZULU)

'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE RAMADAN

Twas the night before Ramadan, and all through the cave

Not a creature was stirring; it felt like a grave.

The turbans were hung by the fire pit with care,

In hopes that the Air Force would not soon be there.

The soldiers were restless without any beds,

while visions of air strikes flashed in their heads.

Osama in his burkha and I in my goatskin cap,

Had just settled down for a cold, barren winter's nap,

When out on the ledge there arose such a clatter,

I grabbed my Kalashnikov to see what was the matter.

Away from the racket I ran like a girl,

Tripped over a goat; into a ball I did curl.

The moon shone down on the new-fallen snow

And lit up the valley with an ominous glow,

When, what to my one good eye should appear,

But a dozen Apaches, and tanks in the rear,

And their leader, so fearless, his troops he did push,

I knew in an instant it must be George Bush.

More rapid than eagles his forces they came,

And they whistled, and shouted, and called out our names;

"Now Omar!  Osama!  Muhammad!  Abdul!

We come for you now; we've taken Kabul!

To the top of the cliffs! To the back of their caves!

When you chose this war, you dug your own graves!"

As the dry leaves that before the assault choppers fly,

When they meet with an obstacle, light up the sky,

So up to the ledge his forces they flew

With full magazines, and flamethrowers too.

And then, in a twinkling, I heard with a thud

The explosions of Tomahawks; not one was a dud.

As I chambered my rifle, and was turning around,

Osama was there, disguised in a gown.

He was dressed all in drag, from his head to his toes,

And he said he would flee while I held off his foes;

A bundle of money he had stuffed in his pack,

He said "I'm going to Baghdad and I'm not looking back!"

His eyes were all glassy; he trembled with fear;

The American bombs, they rang in his ears.

He saddled his goat, then turned tail and fled,

But a Marine Corps sniper got him in the head.

I watched with cold fear as his body did slump;

The goat threw him off; he fell with a thump.

And so, there I stood, my plans all destroyed,

About to suffer a fate I could not avoid;

I dropped to my knees; asked Allah for help,

His voice boomed in my ears,

"You ignorant whelp! I gave you the Bible, the Torah and Koran,

But you were too arrogant to understand,

I told you to honor your neighbors and wives;

Not to enslave them, or degrade their lives!

You invoke My name to sanction your deeds,

But you are the last thing that this world needs.

And so, I'll send you and bin Laden to Hell."

The last words I heard, as the bombs fell,

Were from George Bush himself as he mounted the wall,

"One nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all!"

"IT'S GOD'S RESPONSIBILITY TO FORGIVE BIN LADEN... "IT'S OUR

 RESPONSIBILITY TO ARRANGE THE MEETING..!!"

United States Marines bumper sticker

Kimbershooter <Sundance@Bikerider.com>
Disputanta, Va., USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 14:15:44 (ZULU)

Accuracy should be the first consideration if a shot is too be taken. Reloads are the best quality control you can get depending on your experience.

Don't think because you haven't been there and done that you have no input or aren't qualified to comment. If every Sniper had the same ideas and opinions this page wouldn't be needed. It would be called cat killers discusion group or something like that.

That is too say that I agree with Lito that optics with prescription glasses probably won't be popular. Reflections on normal eye glasses can be a problem but I never felt the need for darkening. With the exception of that little trick with the hole for mirage most scope need all the light they can get. Maybe in extreme cases a prescribed lens could be added to the back of a normal scope but I don't know that much about optics.

There was a recorded shot out in Ariz of 600 yards but I forget the exact circumstances. I remember something about a bridge or interstate highway... something like that. But anyway it's hard to get the go ahead for long shots especially where hostages are concerned it just has to be 99.9 percent probability of success. Although Snipers have great ability to make longer shots, it is their presence that is most effective toward controling a situation. Just because a shot isn't taken doesn't mean the presense of a Sniper wasn't needed or appreciated. When the shot isn't taken and nobody dies the LE sniper is probably in his finest hour although some people seem disappointed the BG didn't get snuffed.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 14:25:30 (ZULU)

Would any of you Hawgs be interested in a 3-Day field exercise in Oklahoma over the Memorial Day weekend.  Plenty of shootin', movin' and communicatin'?.....(cost $100/head)

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 14:41:12 (ZULU)

 That long shot in Arizona was a "Red on Red" homicide.

 A drug dealer was shot from 700 yards with a M1917 Enfield (left at the FFP).  FFP on one bridge, victim under the next bridge, distance between bridges was 700 yards.  Iron sights.  Some bad guys can shoot.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 14:48:57 (ZULU)

On handloaded ammo...let's be realistic. You're going to shoot what you're department/service has approved/issued. For police that's generally Match Grade .308 of the 168 grain persuasion...probably the brand bought on bid. If you're lucky you may get to select the brand...period.

For the Military it's going to be M118(173 gr. FMJBT), M852(168 gr. Sierra MK), or if you're really lucky M118LR(175 gr Sierra MK).

Handloading for tactical use is simply not allowed for liability reasons. It's WAY more defensible, in court, to say the round was made by one of the major manufacturer's than it was something you cooked up in the garage. REGARDLESS of how accurate it is...

That's if something goes wrong...if it goes right, probably no one is going to ask. Do you REALLY want to chance it...you're departments don't!

I recently chronographed several lots of M118 and M852. The extreme spread was 7-8 FPS for a ten round string. The lads at Lake City definetely know what they are about.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 14:49:11 (ZULU)

It reminds me of the physicist who drowned in a lake with an average depth of 12 inches.

Cooper disapproves of long shots and he isn't real precise in his use of numbers.  

"If the Buddah blocks you on the road to enlightment, cut him down."_______ Buddhist proverb

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 14:58:10 (ZULU)

 Like Brian said no one really knows for sure and once again your talking averages. Many shots are probably under 50yds such as across a street on down a block.

 The problem is that LE snipers have a very narrow margine to shoot at or through. They must be able to shoot at the eye or base of the nose not the head or body of the individule. Military snipers like the kill but a wound is just as good because it takes a couple of guys out of the fight to take care of the wounded.

 The LE sniper is usually put in the position of, if he doesn't make the shot some innocent person gets hurt or killed. He also has to live with the aftermath of the shot, court, shooting boards and law suits even if it was a good shooting.

 I know a lot of people tend to think LE snipers are not up the standards of the military, but there two different jobs, with a lot of similarities. I have shot against both in competitions and let me tell you they can both shoot damn well!!! Police snipers tend to be very deadly and damn hard to beat from 100 to 300yds. Military tend to be tough from 500 on out.

 This also has a lot to do with the different equiptment each uses and the way they practice for their particular jobs. In most cases both are very professional and very capable. Yes, there are some local yocals who aren't very professional but that is getting to be more and more rare.

 Sorry this got so long and I may have read you wrong, if so I appoligize, but it kindof sounded like you thought the LE sniper had some pretty easy shooting compared to what the military does. Like I said there two completly different jobs. Just because the ranges are shorter doesn't mean its not just as grulling or difficult. Both should be respected for their skills.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 15:02:01 (ZULU)

Why would I want to sell a rifle?

What Gooch said, except I'm not a SS instructor nor do I play one on TV.  Spent a week or three creeping about Nevada or 29 Stumps and got sand in everything.  Put 100mph tape over the muzzle, and kept the bolt closed, and did everything but put the ammo in a ziplock, and sand still got into everything.  I put a plastic chamber brush into my kit for cleaning w/the Kit and Kaboodle.  Might even remember to use it:)

>>>DU does NOT scratch Ceramic... it shatters it.  Not the same dynamic/ apples and oranges. <<<

Well, I heard it called high speed erosion, but I'm not positive enough to worry about it.  All I care about is that the rounds punch through what they hit, and I'm not near the impact site. Watched a couple M1A1's working over some hulks at the range across the street from Las Pulgas couple years back, impacts were impressive, and that was the steel training ammo.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 15:21:50 (ZULU)

10-4 on the duty ammo for cops, but from his question I ass-u-me-d that he was talking civie personal defense with his pistol. Maybe I was wrong.

You are diffinitly right on with commercial match for police snipers.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 15:27:17 (ZULU)

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 15:32:50 (ZULU)

Now we're going in to Yemen, Somalia and Sudan to kill these same people.    

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62658-2001Dec18.html

This discusses the limitations of the Afghanistan war model. If we are to avoid big wars, we must be prepared to fight and win those wars.  We're still sharing the planet with China and North Korea.  Our military must be structured in such a way as to present an unappealing target.  We will continue to need a large conventional force.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-hawkins121901.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 16:00:10 (ZULU)

I'm at work and can't catch the news. Are the European allies still talking about bugging out after Afganistan?

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 16:11:53 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 16:26:58 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 16:28:02 (ZULU)

Thanks. As far as "on the ground allies", the Brits are about the only ones I exspect to stay with us at all. Your right, it's worth having them close just for the intell resourse.

Semper Fi,

Finger

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 16:52:57 (ZULU)

I'm shooting 75 gr A-Max's out of my 1/9 twist barrels, and they fly straight and true... the 75 A-Max's are longer than the Sierras.

Sierra said to me, that they recomend a 1/8 because most of these are shot out of AR-15's, and with the shorter barrels, deep (magazine) seating and the pressure limits, those matchkings are marginal in those AR's... but in a bolt gun, with a 26" tube, and full loads, they shoot fine nearly all the time... try a box before you write them off.

On handloads for LE... some of the LE sharpshooters around here, are shooting very good "Mexican Match"... Federal couldn't tell it from their own factory ammo.

-

An interesting thing... most of youz bumz will remember a few years ago, when the "Queen of Fat", Rosie O'Donald, who was the official spokesperson for "K-Mart", was spouting off about anyone that owns a gun should be in jail, and K-Mart backed her... and the attack she did on Tom Selleck, without warning him that he would be questioned about guns on an interview... 'member that one.

HA! (as Pat would say)... what goes around, comes around.  The accounting company that handles K-Mart found out that Rosie's comments about guns, and her attack on Tom S. caused the K-M sporting goods sales to drop by 40%... and the rest of the sales dropped too, cuz if the guys went to WalMart for their sporting goods, might as well pick up all the rest of the stuff at WalMart's too...

... Rosie has caused 71 K-Mart stores to be closed, and many more K-Marts are on the block.

It's a damn good lesson... don't patronise the enemy, and they may just die of financial malnutrition

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 18:14:53 (ZULU)

Got a few questions about an M1A I've inherited. Not long after I got it, I took it to my 'smith, a former USMC/MEUSOC type. After a few unprintable gasps of surprise, he told me that it was a DMR or match rifle built in the early '80s by a Master Gunny Ontroveros (sp?). There are no USA or USMC type markings, just the commercial Spfld., and the indications of a forged, not cast receiver. The rifle is double lugged, the rear lug weld is what told my smith who he believes built the rifle. Also, it has a Kreiger Navy contract barrel and is bedded into a sealed heavy walnut stock with an allen screw rear pillar, NM sights and the NM mod to the flash hider. An email from SA regarding the ser. # number just states it left the factory as a bare receiver in 1982, and they have no further knowledge of it.They did not say who it sold to. Anyway, how could I verify the ancestry of this rifle, and what would be an approximate value? Probably not for sale, though, damn thing shoots into an inch with Hirtenberger surplus.

Thanks,

Henry

Henry Joyce <henryj1@prodigy.net>
Rossford, Ohio, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 18:26:08 (ZULU)

about the right flashlight for police

work end rifle shootig,

i took the tac satar wls 2000

its a first rate .

lithium  powered end  includes 2 adjustable mounts for shotguns end

rifles

water resistant + shock proof

end most importatn, compact end bright.

already took it's hunt by the sheep fold

we heve jackals come to feed over the lamb.

greetings for the holidays  

avi

avi <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 20:28:17 (ZULU)

need some info/ help/ assistance,

bought a half year ago the folloing object on recommedation from a gun builder to improve accuracy with my handloads but still do not know how to use it or what exactly for;

from Stoney Point Products, a Cartridge Headspace Gauge to be used with a (mitutoyo) caliper.

Now how do i use this round thingy on my caliper and is it worth the hassle?

Up till now i have always been full-lenght sizing my cases, and do not have any complaints about my accuracy, but like i mentioned before, with neck sized cases my accuracy does not improve much but the bolting of the gun goes alot smoother, which i like.

Thnx in advance,

Marco.

PS; i can higly reccomend the Pathfinder (from www.allisontool.com) to anyone, it really is a handy thing for people who do not have a bdc on their scopes, i got 2 for each rifle of mine, only one "bad" thing about it for us Euro-trash, to get it over this side of the pond does make it an expensive piece of plastic, about 40$.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 20:56:22 (ZULU)

Hey Pablito, I got me a nice Win-52 like your 40XB .22  Went into a shop and there it was, except someone had whacked the barrel of to 18".  It's an original '52 (No letter after the SN), built in '31 if I remember right.  Shoots pinky-nail sized groups at 25yds (outside measurement, not C-C) and the furniture on it was beautiful.  Since the bbl is whacked anyway I think I am going to send it to a smith and have the end turned down and put a bloop-tube on it so I can extend the sight radius, and use it for position work.  I have a spare thumbhole laminated stock I might drop it into for that, and then keep the original somewhere in case I can sell it to a collector redoing one.

Guys, that whole thread on the HK 91 site was a RIOT!  If you haven't looked at it yet, take a peek over there.  http://www.hk91.com/boards/Forum2/HTML/001283.html

Titan

Where did you get the Rock bbls for the AR-10?  I picked up a receiver set at Perry this year and need to get the durned thing put together.  Will prpbably make it into another NRA match rifle so I can play with it more.

Pete Lincoln,

Where do you hunt in the fatherland?  I used to hunt around the Hunsruck/Moselle area (primarily drive hunts all around, but picked up a gig on a revere near St Goar, just south of Koblenz).  That was more than 10 years ago.  I miss it.  Waidmansheil.

Thanks all,

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
Dela Where?, US - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 21:41:21 (ZULU)

You'z guys that want a laugh, go here:

http://www.geocities.com/suketh.geo/gun/mall_ninja.html

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 22:16:31 (ZULU)

I got a question. My Department is wanting to put together another dedicated night gun. Anybody have any field/call-out experience with the Raptor GEN III scope? We have had good service from our Liton Ranger GEN II+, but thought we would upgrade some for this second gun. I've seen it and looked through it. Want to know if anybody has any operational time with it, and if you had any problems.  

Semper Fi

Finger  

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 22:44:01 (ZULU)

Are the Intermediate Cold Weather Boots worth a hoot?

Cold feet, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 23:00:40 (ZULU)

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