I saw a 20 minute piece on TV about the Neutria hunts down there, and it was real tempting to move down there, and become a vollenteer night shift police Sharpshooter (HA!)... they were using canned 10/22s and a canned bolt gun for the far shots... seems the only opposition they had was P.E.T.A.  It was a friggin' riot!

Sir Wesley... I saw a used .22 cal 40x target riffle with Redfield target sights, in a gun shop last week... they want lunch money for it cus the wood stock looks crappy (seems that nobody knows how to refinish a stock anymore)... gonna put a deposit on it this friday... got a 6x Lupita with mildots, sittin' around waitin' for a home :)))

Ken... >"...crawl out here in the Major's garden and get into a good hide position"<.

That Cat only has 8 lives left;)), go git 'em.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 09:19:48 (ZULU)

ALL:  Got to speak with Bruce Robinson yesterday.  What a gentleman.  I always feel inferior speaking with guys like that.  Guess it's due to my Cajun, redneck, white trash, ex-poaching, Harley riding upbringing.  Oh well, he humored me and we talked for a while.  Thanks Bruce, enjoyed the visit.  Will send some business soon.

Hey, isn't the HS Precision man on this site ?  Got some questions about the stocks, old and new, bedding blocks, full length, partial length, etc. and which are which, etc.  Any info appreciated.  Where I am going with this is:  Which stocks have sling swivel studs screwed into metal (other than just the fiberglass) and which ones do not ?  My computer seems to have a problem letting me check the archives.

NUTRIA:  Went out in the marsh a year ago with my sniper partner.  The boy is a SERIOUS duck hunter. Watching him shoot an 870 is like attending a redneck ballet, magical.  Each member of his family owns an air boat (He's Cajun too).  The nutria were taking over his huntin' spots.  He said he'd drive if I shot.  What a deal !  Brought a Rem 541 T w/ Leup 6.5-20 EFR.  Shooting rats as fast as I could run the bolt.  Left hand, right hand, behind the back, all from a moving air boat, nothing but net.  Took a minute to get used to it all.  Fast paced but a friggin' blast ! Just find a little brown with a crosshair and break the shot.  No time to breath and all that marksmanship stuff.  Not that I am good or nothing but I rarely missed. Funny how all the basics can go seemingly on autopilot.

I guess I see how the old trick shooters could do what they did.  I just got a little taste of it in the marsh.  One of the funnest times of my life.  

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:04:44 (ZULU)

I'd be hesitant at using acetone down the bore--not because of any damage to the bore, but because it MAY eat through anything plastic it comes in contact with, including the handle of your cleaning rod, pistol grip, etc. Not quite sure what the point of it would be anyway, unless it's to remove the last vestiges of grease/oil/moly(?). Anyone else correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it will dissolve copper.

Bruce:  <<(Only thing that makes me sicker than John Walker is to see a fine old Parker or Winchester dbl. bbl. shotgun defiled by a recoil pad!)>> Wasn't it Roy Dunlap (or someone even older) who said that a recoil pad on a fine gun looked like someone in a tux wearing rubber boots? ;)

Wes: Only problem with the "cheap .22" idea is that after taking all the s**t for buying it in the first place, the "other half" winds up liberating it for her own personal use! Like 'lito, I try to find the bargain, then squirrel away the lunch funds. Too bad she knows the combo to the gun vault.;))

Caison: re your post about the archaic ranging guesstimation--had a pair of ancient brass-bodied binocs with a ranging reticle one of my forebears "requisitioned" from an arty unit in the Great War. Seems he commanded a MG company, and used them extensively to range the "Boche". So they were around, but don't know if they were officially issued to anyone other than arty. The reticle was a primitive thing, marked in yards; don't know what the height/width of the targeting reference was, but I recall it didn't work out in mils.

Nutria hunts? Hell, we used to pop 'em across the dam from the swimmin' hole. Darn things were vicious...they've got HUGE fangs...just like Python's Bunny Rabbit! ;)))

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:04:47 (ZULU)

What the hell is a nutria?  Sounds like some sorta fiber bar sold by one of those multi-level nutritional supplement companies.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:52:16 (ZULU)

http://www.pwrc.nbs.gov/resshow/nutria.htm

Here's a relevant quote:

"Nutria are large (8-18lb) beaver-like rodents introduced from South America. They have become overpopulated because of the decline in the fur industry and a lack of any other apparent market for the animals."

There are pictures on that website.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:55:05 (ZULU)

Your talkin about hunting Neutria from an air boat (I'm REAL jelouse!!) brought to mind when I was yound, me and a friend rode shotgun on a manure spreader, and damn near died laughin'... a local farmer was spring seeding his alpha fields, and had a manure truck that would throw a mix of cow poop, and seed, but the flocks of starlings (a local trash bird), would follow the truck and eat more than 50% of the seed.

So he worked out a deal/trade with us to protect his seedin' operation... he set up a 2"x8" plank across the back of the manure truck, and we sat on the plank facing backwards... I had a 28ga Charles Daley over and under, and my friend had a 20ga Rem 1100, and we each brought a full case of ammo.

When that truck went across the fields, starlings would follow, swoopin' an' divin' all over the place.  It made skeet shootin' look like child's play!  It was the first time I saw smoke coming off that 28 ga barrel... We went through both cases of ammo in one day, and damn near died laughing!  Took us three days to get to smellin' OK!

Now for the other side of the deal... in exchange for our "sacrifice" of riding shotgun on his truck (it was really hell, but somebody had to do it ;), we got full access to all his fields for 'chuck shooting.

It's one of my best memories... other than the "great bullfrog safari" which was also a hoot ;)))

TBD... they didn't "get over populated" because of the declining fur market... the Neutria were just dumped into the swamps from the Neutria farms in Florida, and Louisiana in the late 50's during a "booming fur market"... when women discovered that the prised $15,000 Neutria coats were not from some exotic aminal like Russian Black Sable, or mink, but from a South American RAT!

This link from your link:

http://www.pwrc.nbs.gov/FACTSHTS/FACT1.PDF

... shows how much damage they will do to a swamp, or marsh

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 14:30:38 (ZULU)

"... Success will demand a sustained effort. Victory will come not as a result of spectacular battlefield successes, but by breaking the will of our adversaries..."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-mahnken121301.shtml

We're in for a long haul, boys.  

Side note to the guy who's e-mailing me claiming to be Secretary Powell:  His first name is spelled C-O-L-I-N.  It would add some credibility if you got that right.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 14:35:26 (ZULU)

Re cold weather gloves.  2 solutions - 1.  Go to Walmart's sporting goods dept and get a pair of neoprene gloves.  Cut the trigger finger of the glove partially through near the tip (1st joint) so that you can slip the finger out of the glove to shoot and back over your finger when not shooting.  You can also attach velcro to the back of the finger to keep it out of the way while shooting.  2.  Get a pair of fingerless rag wool gloves.

I've used both solutions when winter flyfishing in really cold weather/water and they work.

HTH.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 15:02:11 (ZULU)

Nutria: We have them in Oregon, as well. All over the Willamette Valley. NASTY critters. Our folklore indicated they are NOT a south american rat, but a genetic crossing of Beaver and Muskrat. Designed to be bred for the fur trade. Bottom line is the market was bad and they were just let loose. Procreate? Put's rabbits to shame! Great fun to walk the drainage ditches and hose'm down with an SMG!

Wow, the whole thing reminds me of the great Chinchilla caper...anyone remember THAT get rich scheme?

Anyone out there shooting a .338 Mag for sniping? Not the Lapua version the Winchester one. They do well with 300 grainers, it looks like, without the expense of the big Lapua rounds and guns. Recoil on the other hand may be a real BITCH. Maybe I should just settle for the .30/416 Z-Mag a friend of mine develop. Neck down a .416 Rigby to .30 cal with 240 grain bullet. Looks like a .223 Improved on serious steroids.

All for now...hold hard.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 15:29:01 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 16:38:19 (ZULU)

Different critter altogether. Muskrat is Ondatra zibethica; nutria is Myocastor coypus. (No, I didn't know that already--I looked it up!) From what I remember about the muskrat, it's a lot smaller than the nutria, which grow up to about 15 lbs.

Go get 'em...either one ;)

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 16:46:02 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011213-86106316.htm

Indonesia heats up.  Sounds nasty.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20011213-3522675.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 17:26:36 (ZULU)

Bolt, just $50 for the kitty, how do you want it? cash, check, MO, virgin brass, powder, Florida Sunshine about Feburary or March?

Anybody know of any other ranges in south florida that are longer than 200 yards?  need something close to visit while the wife's at work                             TomC

Thomas Cook <Flcookfamily@cs.com>
Lake Worth, FL, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:15:09 (ZULU)

The lack of any other apparent market for the wiley and vicious Nutria is being filled by people who are pushing for....consumption.

Thats right, if a Cajun could figure out how to fillet a mosquito, he'd fry'im up a mess. I have not tried Nutria yet (which is funny because I'm "mostly" cajun...) but I hear it's not bad. I think that if I ever do I'll probably still prefer 'Gator. I have to think eating a lizard beats eating a rat anyday.

The 20 min clip Patron 'Lito spoke of aired on E!. I had heard of the program before that, but that was mostly unconfirmed rumors. I think they're trying to keep all of the fun to themselves. I would.

All this talk of Nutria busting has me wanting to grab the .22 and head out into Manchac this weekend. Four Mile Marsh sounds like a good plan....

Watch out for the other guy,

Chase

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:15:25 (ZULU)

How skittish are these things?  It sounds like you can almost walk right up to them.  Might be good for a TC-Contender (name your favorite cartridge) and a 3-9x Leupold, with V-Max loads.

I thought these things were appetizers for anacondas in Venezuela.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:58:52 (ZULU)

IF a cajun cooked mosquitos, they taste like fried quail!

We ARE talkin about that old crotchy Bruce Robinson out there in Young Mexico. A gentleman by whose standards? He won't even allow Pachmayers on his Parker. He probably doesn't even prefer blondes.

You guys have a way of distortin the truth somethin fierce.

CAUTION POLITICAL Rhetoric!

Looks like Indonesia is gonna be the next hit. I can't believe they're makin it so easy for us! The constant reference to Islamic leaders, that are sympathatic to UBL, is a smoking bomb if you can believe that tape. "I can!" Wouldn't like to air mail a match king to those 2 bastards?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:07:01 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry121301.shtml

If the Cajun's I've met cooked a nutria, I'd eat it.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:18:17 (ZULU)

CHASE:  Used to see two boys from Hammond at the rodeo every weekend.  Both good cowboys.  Been a while.  I forget the names.

RATS:  Nutria live in the water so they are really pretty clean animals.  They just look like a big ole regular rat with orange buck teeth.  Used to hunt/trap 'em in high school and sell the skins.  Made good goin' out money back then.

LITO:  Been froggin' too.  Lots.  Gigs and .22s  For some weird reason, I always liked using the rifle better (go figure).  Did lose a few that way though.  You'll lose 'em if they jump when you hit 'em near deeper water.  Their ears look just like a little bullseye target.  Hold my beer, I'll shoot this un from the truck !  

I remember one night as a kid, Dad and I were on the bayou late.  Dad was teaching me how to skull a pirougue along while sitting in the front.  I saw a frog on the bank and eased over there to grab him.  Dad calmly told me not to grab him and to look just a little bit harder at him.  I adjusted my headlight and saw that a big ole cottonmouth had him by the back legs.  Dad shot the cottonmouth and we pulled him off the frog.  The snake had long assed fangs with ole green, puss looking poison sacs plum full.  We let the frog be.  Figured he'd had a rough enough day.  Besides, who the hell wants frog legs laced with snake poison.

Watch your six,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:22:50 (ZULU)

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/13/wsom13.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/13/ixhome.html

Bad terrorist incedent in New Delhi.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/131201/dlnat125.asp

And it sure hit the fan in Israel, huh?  Good thing the West Bank, India and Indonesia didn't all happen in late September.  This half-assed jihad may have been much messier.  If you have to have enemies, it is a real convenience for them to be too stupid to coordinate their operations.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:44:12 (ZULU)

Garrison driven small game shoot tommorow, should be a good laugh, usualy is, lets see if there are any pheasants this year, good day out with my dog.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:21:42 (ZULU)

Thanks very much for the helpful comments concerning my no.32 Mk2 Houghton Butcher scope.  Pete L, I recognize a fellow fanatic.  I hope you manage to find one of these No.4 Mk1 (T)'s.  

Caison, I will try the 1" tape method you described.  My post comes to a point, but it still ought to work as a rough and ready method of ranging.  Better than my inexperienced eyeball, anyway.

I take your point about getting a more up to date rig if I want to get into the sport seriously (and I do).  But my wife'll shoot me if I drop another bag o' bucks on another rifle right now.  Besides, I'm in love with the Lee-Enfield.  

However, that brings up another question.  I'm looking for shooting schools in the North East where a beginner can get good instruction on long-range shooting.  Ideally, one that would let me use my No.4 Mk.I.  The only school I've found that has a course specifically for old rifles is Thunder Ranch, in Texas, and that course isn't offered until the end of April 2002.  Can anyone suggest other schools?  

Finally, this Kamikaze camel story.  I have personal experience of this type of warning, and it makes me wonder why elements of Uncle Sam's government seem so fixated on it.  I hadn't heard about the Afghans using suicide camels against the Soviets, maybe that's where it comes from.

Anyway, a couple of years back a team of people from a client were offered a briefing in DC by a couple of government agencies.  The client was building a very expensive, high profile piece of infrastructure in a rather touchy place and so gratefully accepted the offer and dispatched a very high-powered team of people.  Well, they sit down in a room in DC and the briefing begins, and goes on, and on.  And a powerpoint slide goes up listing sources of threat and one of the categories is "animal".

Animal?  says one of the client people.  What kind of threat are animals?  

Sheep, says the government man.  Sheep?  says the client person.

Exploding sheep, says the government man.  And goes on to describe, straight faced, a scenario in which terrorists strap explosives to sheep and herd them into the infrastructure in question.  The clients were, to say the least, flabbergasted.

The area in question is lousy with wolves, and to this day we call them sheep interceptors.

I hear, incidentally, that the Marines missed the camel. True?  Because, y'know, I could do the USMC a great deal on some sheep, er, camel interceptors ...  

Robin

Robin Bhatty <pike2bishop@cs.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:23:29 (ZULU)

<a recoil pad on a fine gun looked like someone in a tux wearing rubber boots>

Don’t know who said that, but I wish I had!

Wes,

My Dad had Chinchillas in the late 50’s, which I had to care for. We never got rich, but had some good laughs when some got out in the basement and our bulldog caught ‘em and brought ‘em back unharmed. Those suckers could run, but so could the bulldog.

CDC’,

No-one corrects my spelling of “CHILE”……it’s already correct…..they only offer their own misinformed opinion regarding an alternative spelling. Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do.

Brian,

Great talking with you. Don’t insult me or my East Tennessee kinfolk, though, by saying such things….we’re trashier than near about anybody. I’ve met more gentlemen in bib overhauls than all that ever wore three-piece suits in corporate America. Give me Jerry Clower and Marcel Ledbetter any time.

On Nutria:

Never ate one. Did eat a woodchuck, years ago. They were known as “Hoover Hogs” in the South during the Depression. A survivor of those times gave me the recipe.

Longer I cooked it, the worse it smelled. Had to open every window in the house. Finally removed the corpse from the crockpot and chowed down.

I’m gonna have to be damn hungry to eat another one. Anybody wants the recipe, contact me.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:44:30 (ZULU)

You guys up there in Oregon and Washington got them Nutria confused with Nauga! I've never ate one of them Nauga's but I think the fun is in the findin. (sorry ahead of time Maurius). Those I've talked too that ate them Nauga say they taste a lot like plastic but they chew like rubber. Hides ain't worth much either! But they have a knack for hidin. I've sure you've heard of a Nauga hide!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 21:16:42 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:05:19 (ZULU)

What's goin' on here? First we talk about Trounds, and the venerable Gyrojet, then chinchilla ranching, then Argosy, and now...Naugahyde???

Everybody's traipsing down memory lane ;))

Ain't nobody shootin' no more? Gotta go find me some nutria....

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:17:25 (ZULU)

KEITH CAMARDO <BATCAM1@AOL.COM>
ST. MARYS, GA, US - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:22:50 (ZULU)

all this talk bout shooting nutricious rats or something, makes me remember that i am back doing homework in little ol' dutch country instead of hunting skunks and raccoons in beautifull kentucky...sh#t i wish i was still there...

about shooting raccoons, maybe one of you fine "BIG" predator rat sniping people can explain to me why it took me everytime 2 to 3 .22 hollow point bullets to kill a raccoon instead of 1?

(and nope, it was not poor marksmanship, every round hit what i was aiming for)

i mean, even a shot straight between the eyes would'nt kill em instantly, they would still be doing some breakdancing for a minute or 2 (ofcourse after the first time they never got the 2 minutes again cause i shot each of em twice more centre mass within 2 seconds), i guess raccoons and skunks are not good medulla shot excercise targets??

L8r,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:39:59 (ZULU)

Check out www.tacticalstocks.com/m40a1_kits.htm (bottom of the page) or just click on my name for the link. They have an M40A1 package deal in which you just send them an action and they put on a match grade barrel, not sure which one but it's on the site, a McMillan HTG stock pillar bedded, their floorplate, which looks like a Winchester Mod 70 like on the M40A1 but it's one piece so no bedding problems, and they also clipslot the action. It runs about $1150 I believe. Which isn't to bad if you can get a cheap action from WalMart or a used one then the whole thing shouldn't cost you more than $1400.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:28:11 (ZULU)

Had a local cowboy ask me if I'd been jacklightin deer on him? Said he had a report there were lots of spotlights flashin out on his  ranch land. Before I could say a word my partner said, "Hell no it weren't us, we use night vision!"  Thought you guys might enjoy that one!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:41:55 (ZULU)

I'm a longtime lurker w/a Rem 700P in .300 WinMag (Leupold MkIV M1 10x on top) and have an on-topic question and off-topic comment.

On topic: What's the closest reloaded approximation to the A-191 .300 WinMag? My buddy and I just went half-zies on a Dillon RL 550 that should be set up by Christmas, and bought full set-ups for 9mm, .223 and .300 WinMag...

Off topic: Just became a first-time Daddy, to the most beautiful girl in the world. While signing the pediatrician's forms for her first appointment recently (at a practice affiliated w/a major Chicago hospital), they asked for the usual family history stuff, a bunch of "yes/no" questions about who's had high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.

Here's a couple questions near the end:

"Are you concerned about your child's exposure to violence?  Y/N"

"Are there any guns in the home?   Y/N"

OK. So how the hell are you gonna answer the first one? Just to screw with them, I circled "No."

And for the second question, I just didn't feel it was one that needed to be answered, just on principle (we don't--thanks to Mayor Daley). I was waiting to go toe-to-toe with the Doc, but it never came up in discussion.

(sigh) It's disappointing to see the medical establishment firmly entrenched in politics...

Anyway, sorry to ramble. Thought you guys might find that interesting.

Derek

PS: 'Lito: See www.mycathatesyou.com  You'd get a kick out of it.

Derek Stickel <spike_226@hotmail.com>
Chicago, IL, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:46:26 (ZULU)

If you knew those guys within the last 10-15 years chances are decent I know them too. The funniest thing about this place is nobody ever escapes. The only problem with this really is, like every other small town in America, everybody knows everything about you or anything you ever did.

The biggest problem here is finding a place to shoot. Unless you know somebody with huge tracts of land your left with shooting along runs of high Tension wires. This is really only productive in the Fall or Winter. You can watch the Kudzu dominate in the Summer. Second to this is finding people to shoot with. I can get about 300m at one friends house, but those days are rare.

Will Camp Shelby let people drive onto the base to use the ranges there? I'm not so far from there that I couldn't make it a 1-2 day thing. I know the Navy looks down on bringing personally owned weapon onto the base. How does the army feel about it?

Any help is appreciated as always.

Chase

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 00:03:41 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$ZCS0W1QAADZTHQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/14/wbin14.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/14/ixhome.html

Rumsfeld says that Al Qaeda can surrender when they turn bin Laden over.  If they don't have him, they either find him or they die.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 00:31:58 (ZULU)

Can anyone post the URL to the site that carries the TGRT (?) data books that Gooch used to sell?  Would appreciate it, my son wants to order me one for Christmas.

Thanks

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 01:33:55 (ZULU)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 01:36:45 (ZULU)

Flu bug struck today. Just woke up and feel like recycled...whatever.

Better than earlier, though.

Bill, the Nauga's are on the endangered species list and if you are caught with the Hides you're in big trouble. On the bright side, the Asians and Hispanics are still shooting each other over Morell Mushrooms, and edible fungi, in our woods. The hobby mushroom hunters have just about given up the hunt because of this...

Poaching is a big problem, as well.

Seems to me they should issue five tags per year for US "sniper folk" to hunt these nerds. That would help the issue considerably.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 02:09:05 (ZULU)

DMAT/VMAT/DMORT members ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Recieved in an email last night!!!!!!!

=============

HR2333 was rewritten as HR3448 and passed!  about 90% of the content of what was in HR2333 is included in HR3448.  The bulk of what we all were waiting for!

I urge you to stop by the NADMAT web site and view the legislative

initiatives page

http://mediccom.org/public/NADMAT/default.htm

for more info.  Specific information and the full text of the bill can

be found at:

http://mediccom.org/public/NADMAT/leg.html

To summarize what this might mean to us as DMAT/VMAT/DMORT members (by

no means inclusive of all the topics in the bill).

1) Establishes new position of Assistant Secretary for Emergency

Preparedness to coordinate HHS activities under the new Act. Authorizes the National Disaster Medical System, under the new Assistant Secretary to provide for further National capacity during public health emergencies.

2) Provides grants for training and education for where there are

shortages in categories of health care professionals to respond to

public health emergencies.

3) Establishes National system to help verify the licenses, credentials and hospital privileges of health professionals who volunteer to respond during public health emergencies.

4) Provides flexibility to allow the Secretary of HHS to supply actual

supplies, equipment, or services instead of, or in conjunction with,

grants.

5) Authorizes the transfer of funds during public health emergencies

without lengthy waiting periods.

6) There is verbage that includes that workers comp and coverage for

injury includes during authorized drills and training, not just during a deployment.

HERE's the big one, employment rights while on deployment:

(3) EMPLOYMENT AND REEMPLOYMENT

RIGHTS.

(A) IN GENERAL.-Service as an intermittent disaster-response appointee

when the Secretary activates the National System or when the individual participates in a training program authorized by the Assistant Secretary for Emergency Preparedness or a comparable

official of any Federal agency specified in subsection (b)(2)(B) shall

be deemed 'service in the uniformed services' for purposes of chapter 43 of title 38, United States Code, pertaining to employment and

reemployment rights of individuals who have performed service in the

uniformed services (regardless of whether the individual receives compensation for such participation). All rights and obligations of such persons and procedures for assistance, enforcement, and investigation shall be as provided for in chapter 21 43 of title 38, United States Code.

(B) NOTICE OF ABSENCE FROM POSITION OF EMPLOYMENT.-Preclusion of giving notice of service by necessity of Service as an intermitent disaster-response appointee when the Secretary activates the National System shall be deemed preclusion by 'military necessity'for purposes of section 4312(b) of title 38, United States Code, pertaining to giving notice of absence from a position of employment. A Determination of such necessity shall be made by the Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, and shall not be subject to judicial review.

The list goes on, and its quite exciting legislation as it means Big $$$ for NDMS and official recognition of the program after all these years!

Happy, happy, happy, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
Happy in...., NC, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 02:29:20 (ZULU)

Looking for some experiance. Looking to modify an ARMALITE to 7mm short mag from Remm. Maybe 300 WSM, the result I am looking for is more long range punch while staying under MOA out to 800 meters. Who is capable of this modification, am I asking to much from the rifle or cartridge. Leaning towards 7mm.

Last topic is what do you think of a Kimber CDP Pro for a every day concealed carry in a suit and tye enviroment.

Regards, Thank you for the opinions.

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 07:36:46 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 03:46:14 (ZULU)

An Armalite to 300 Win. How about Win Short Magnum?  I wouldn't try it at home! What kind of Armalite are we talkin about for sure here?

This may be worse than shootin Nauga's afore it's over!  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 04:06:51 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 04:16:12 (ZULU)

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 05:27:11 (ZULU)

After listening to me (and others) bitch about the ZULU Time Stamp, it is now on the money.

Ken knows how to manipulate those one's and zero's.

Hell, I'd bitch if I was hung with a new rope. Just glad we got somebody like Ken to run this site and humor my cranky ass.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 05:35:01 (ZULU)

          Can't do nothin' about the endangered status of them Naugas' but if its just the hides you want, go down to the closest auto graveyard and start pickin' around the 1960's era Pontiacs;-). Next thing you know we'll be huntin' Chias!

Marco, newbie to 'coon huntin, they're not hard to kill - it just takes 'em awhile to figure out that they're dead :-))

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 05:43:00 (ZULU)

Bill wrote about an Armalite in .300 WSM. Probably do-able, but what you gonna use for a magzine? More trouble than it's worth, IMHO.

Leave it to a guy who's comfortable with a .40 Short & Weak Glock to want a Armalite. Ahem, ever hear of bolt guns...;-)

Bruce,

Ken still has the time screwed up. It's NOT ZULU Time...it's Grenich(sp?)Mean Time...boy, some guys just NEVER get it right. Think I'll duck and run for now. Ken's probably calling in a strike on my pos...

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 06:26:36 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40549-2001Dec13.html

Some thoughts on unilateralism from Krauthammer.  This is good.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41292-2001Dec13.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 06:27:42 (ZULU)

Ken... your server clock is 22 seconds slow :((

-

OK... lemme see... it was Hotties over 40, "G" spots, and now were on Nauga and huntin' the dangerious Green Spotted Mountain Chia (my neahbor's favorite pet)... lordie what's this site coming to??

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 08:40:38 (ZULU)

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 09:15:52 (ZULU)

They "moved" to UTC? Boy, am I out of date. However, they still have Zulu time. 'Lito, I'm like you...how the hell did they manage that and how are they keeping their times straight...or is it just us and the military using Zulu time?

I missed "over 40 hotties" and "G-spots"? How'd I manage that...before my time on the list or am I just so old that I've lost interest?

I've a Winchester M70 that may look good as a 6.5 X 45MM (based on the .308). Very efficient. So many guns/wants, so little time/money...

There, a gun related post!

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 10:38:58 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 11:36:28 (ZULU)

Geeze, I thought I was the only one up this late(early?) and had screwed up sleep patterns. Let'em bitch about the time, Ken. We're just darn lucky to have you riding herd on the site!

As sometimes happens, on these eves, I was comparing ballistic data between my 6.5 X .284 and the .300 Win Mag. With the .300 and a 155 gr. Palma MK, at 3,400 FPS it actually shoots flatter to 1,000 than my beloved 6.5 with 142 Sierras...but it's close.

Hmmm, how about a .30/.416 Rigby(Z-Mag)and that same bullet at 3,800 FPS...followed by half the rifling. Actually, Zareh Ohanian has 200+ rounds through the Z-mag. Mostly 240 Sierra's. The jury is still out on barrel life...powder charge is 120+ grains powder. That's enough for almost three .308 reloads!

See? We can do a shooting related post...now back to "bin Laden and the nutria...".

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 11:49:30 (ZULU)

Talk to George Gardner.   To get what you want in under 1 MOA out to 800 yards , a simple old .308 pushing 175's will do the trick and then some.   There are a few people working on either the WSM or the Remington short mags.  The one I know in particular is so busy with work that it is on the back burner.   Rick indicated the Army was working on somethin a while back with AR-10's and the Rem. SM.  The rifles will handle it no problem.   What has to be reworked is the feed being switched from a side feed to a center feed.  This may only involve a modified feed ramp and center feed followers but until it is tested know one knows exactly it will work out.

Wes -  not to piss on you corn flakes, but the AR-10's will shoot with the bolt guns.  All of the services are looking at either the Armalite or the Knight as next generation weapons.  IN fact the Knight MkII  Mod 00 has been adopted by two or three branches of the Military.  Armalite is also close to getting its rifle adopted.  These things are every bit as good as the best bolt guns and provide tremendous fire power when needed by a sniper.  These new gas guns area giant leap ahead of the old M21/M25, and even the PSG-1.

Doing some serious ducking for the incoming.

Take Care

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 12:31:33 (ZULU)

 Congrats

 On those medical forms (and the many others you'll get now that you're a dad)... only answer the questions you feel they NEED.  If they want the info for a specific reason they'll ask again and explain the reason for the initial request.

 Short sea story:  (come on guy's, it's my first one and it'll be short)

 I was stationed on a Nuke cruiser, USS California, in the medical department.  The new Chief came on board and immediately stopped sending in the numerous "required" reports, both internal and external to the command.  I asked what he was trying to do and his reply was this...

 There are too many reports and they cut into our time to do the necessary physical things.  I stop sending the reports and if there is anyone on the other end that's reading the reports or if they're important I'll get feedback about the missing report AND THEN I'll resume sending THAT particular report.

 After that, there were a lot less reports being sent out, lots of legacy reports and garbage info in the system.  

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 12:55:57 (ZULU)

CHASE:  No info on the Army base question.  I think I am the wrong guy to ask on that one.  I am curious too though.  The wife and I get to New Orleans a lot.  Maybe next time I could bring a stick or two  and you could teach me something.  Been trying to get a hold of NO SWAT for a while.  Don't here much from them boys.  They capped a  robber a few weeks back though.

COONS:  Coons are tough.  No doubt about it.  I've seen 'em take more .22 rounds, than it took to put down some men. (.22, .25, .380 in a  Lorcin/Davis auto) - weapon of choice on the street (unless they're Asian. Then it's a Glock 9mm, .40, .45 or a MAC or AK).

How ya'll skin one of them naughas ?

Watch your six,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 13:45:44 (ZULU)

Guys, do some research.  Major Land once stated that many enemy targets were detected by brass being ejected from the weapon.  On of the major training points of REAL sniper training is bolt manipulation which controls ejection of the expended cartridge for many reasons,

1.  Movement.  Brass knocks cover and attracts attention.

2.  Shine.  Shiny brass thing flying through the air.  Same as #1.

3.  Evidence of sniper activity.  Fucking brass has now flown a few feet from your location.  Gotta retrieve it before we move from FFP.  

4.  Location of observer.  Depending on ejection pattern of rifle the fucking brass nails observer in face when behind scope. Brass catchers cause stoppages sometimes and are bulky.

5.  Reliability.  Semi-auto mechanisms that are "match quality" are notorious for stoppages and malfunctions.  

Granted some of this shit is preventable. BUT.....

Firepower ranks way down on the list of priorities.  Accuracy and stealth are more important.  Thats why thier observer carries a M203 and a radio and in the real world we usually operate near a security detachment.  Ninja missions behind enemy lines are mostly for the movies.

Gas guns as sniper rifles IN GENERAL should be avoided.  If you want one to shoot competitions with or sit around and fondle while you watch the discovery channel fine, but not for MOST real world missions.

Thats my story and Im sticking to it.

OUT

gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 14:49:43 (ZULU)

Update on the fighting.  There are claims that they have yo' mama cornered.  The source for that sounds squirrly.  Al Qaeda is taking significant casualties.  It sounds like some of them are E&Eing into Pakistan.  

http://wire.ap.org/?SLUG=AFGHAN%2dFIGHTING

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 15:03:32 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 15:59:23 (ZULU)

Not so sure I like the idea of a heavily funded, federally controlled disaster response system.

I was an elite volunteer member of an active USAR team on Sept 11-12.  I came home from that assignment and promptly resigned... I didn't care for the hidden agendas of the paid "professionals" there to "lead me" (and enhance their resume...)

Something to think on....

New Jersey probably had 100 willing, trained men (held back) for every one they sent to NYC.  Most of these men were not paid, and thus, were there for only one reason.....to help.  What exactly needs fixing??????

If I'm ever hurt and trapped, please send me a 100% volunteer team...you cannot buy unconditional commitment.

Plus, I don't recall the US Constitution ceding to the Feds the redistribution of wealth for the purpose of replacing a free rescue system that works...thus, that boon-doggle concept is a State's right to screw up....

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:00:45 (ZULU)

If ya has a big one, it'll look just like a lazyboy when you are done.

Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:01:59 (ZULU)

 Thanks for the wake-up call.

 Just yesterday I was laying the groundwork to build a AR-10.

 Now I must ask myself.....What for?

 I read your post and WILCO.

 I guess I'll have to use my bonus on a down payment for a V-ROD.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:38:39 (ZULU)

I need to kill time by shooting my SAVAGE 10FP 223. Until George gets my new 308 toy to me. So I had bad luck with 75 gr pills with Varget at 300 yards. Any input? Or, should I go back to 69 gr boolits that shoot 1.75-2.00" consistantly at 300?

Naugas were found to be extinct by PETA awhile back. Takes about 30-40 to make a nice davenport.

To The Right Of The Line.

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Tejas, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:41:15 (ZULU)

I've gotta weigh in with Ken Gooch on this one...Bolt actions for the sniper, not semi-auto's. For the very reasons he stated. Remember a major part of your mission is intelligence gathering the other part is sniping. Both require stealth. I'll take a bolt gun over the semi auto any day. Pulleezz! Don't give me the old "firepower" superiority thing...if you/ve been made the last thing you want is to engage in a firefight...remember, the opposition WANTS to fix your position and destroy you! I won't even waste any more breath on this one...seems to many folks are used to firing from secure fixed positions NOT "indian" country. Think about it, Dammit!

Titan,

Choice of weapon is a deeply personal choice. Mine will always be a bolt gun. And yes, I know the semi's can be spectacularly accurate(I own several), but they are NOT my choice. IMHO, anyone that arms a sniper, with a semi, is looking at the wrong set of mission parameters.

Case in point: The Army gave up on the gas guns and went to the bolt gun(M-24)and the Marines have used bolt guns exclusively. This asided from their mis-guided attempt to make the M25 shoot. Boots Obermeyer had to made a run of barrels to make that happen(for the spec-ops guys).

I rest my case, your choice, I've made mine!

Semper Fi,

Wes  

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 16:45:48 (ZULU)

bin Laden?' I said, 'I don't know, let's find out.'"

                              - Don Imus

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:07:44 (ZULU)

I was trying to make light of all the comments going back and forth about Tac-Ord and the mis-information involved.   I felt too many people were taking the blame for the information they were passing because they didn't have the whole story... things like that happen.

Once again Sorry....

                                    TomC

Thomas Cook <Flcookfamily@cs.com>
Lake Worth, Fl, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:26:17 (ZULU)

Does that make me simple?

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:34:00 (ZULU)

Firepower?!?  In a two or four man sniper team?  Redefine your meaning of firepower if you think a four man team has any.  Think of things with guns measured in inches, starting with 4.7(120mm).  Yeah, I'm having my (4man)teams hump two M203's and a SAW, but that's so they have a prayer if they run into an infantry SQUAD, let alone a platoon or company.

There is a place for a gun like this IMO.  That's the airborne sniper role, like Gordon and Shugart pulled in Somalia, or as part of a MSPF or low intensity urban operation when you can't blow hell out of the countryside.  Semiauto is cool for when you miss(and you will) and the magnum means better trajectory and better penetration(especially if they stuff those tungsten core projectiles from the XM995 into a WSM case).  But it's SOCOM stuff and/or designated marksman stuff(cop stuff too), not true to doctrine, US employed, sniper stuff.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M    

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:45:17 (ZULU)

Found a new use for ghillies....they are great for funnelling water away from insensitive areas and running it down the back of yer neck and crack of yer a--.  Finally got around to getting mine out in the open and in the grass.  Temp in the high 40's low 50's, cloudy, and a 20 mph crosswind, steady.  Perfect, and burlap helps keep the wind off.  Guess what hides in clouds???? Rain.  Amazing how a little water can affect one's temperament.  The Howa didn't care, not one bit. Dialled it back to 100 yds, the Lisenfeld came down exactly where it was supposed to after cranking down 8'.  Shot 3 rds with LC match cases, group wallowed all over the place.  Had 10 rds of Winchester brass that all were within .4 gr weight of each other, shot 7 into one ragged hole.  Anyone know if Win. holds that kinda QC all the time?  The LC wandered all over the place, some of it more than 1.5 gr different.....

Anyone know if there is a good stock I can drop a Howa barrelled action into?  I can get a 26", heavy barrelled action in .308 for less than $380.  LMK....

This bolt gun thing is dangerous....The AR is getting worried that the relationship is in trouble....

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 17:51:51 (ZULU)

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 18:22:04 (ZULU)

Make mine a rattle battle that holds a decent group.  Remember we can still use match grade ammo in the things which helps LOT'S.

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 18:36:39 (ZULU)

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=14122001-114236-4366r

Then why are they sticking around?  This says that many are standing and fighting like they're protecting something.  If so, what could that something be?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/14/gen.war.against.terror/index.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 18:51:21 (ZULU)

-

Ken M... no problem at all.  Drill out the spot welds.  Remove the spacer.  Cut the sides off the spacer, so the front piece with the tall lip, is now flat.  Silver solder (or epoxie) this piece to to the back of the magazine box (it will also hold the back of the box together).  Make sure you don't block the notch in the bottom of the magazine box that the front of the trigger guard goes into.

Now remove the bolt stop blade (loose the rear trigger pin), and cut back the blade so it lets the bolt come back far enough to pick up the rounds that are now longer.  This might take a little trial and error to get right.  Also, you might have to change the angle of the tab on the plate that you re-installed... it should NOT let rounds get under the bolt head (for obvious reasons)...

The Leade on my M70 .223 HBV's is the exactly the same, and the leade on my M70 .308 HBV's is exactly the same... your's is NOT a fluke... they hold a tight tolerance on the reamers.

... I've done ALL my M70's this way... and all will feed rounds through the magazine with the bullets touching the leade... it workie jus' fine!  And doesn't void the Winchester Guarantee.

-

Went to the range today... got there just in time for it to pour :((

But got a deposit in on the .22rf Rem 40-X.  It is marked "U.S. Government Property"... total price is $400.

The stock needs a gallon of paint stripper to remove the ratty old finish, which looks like shit, but the metal is fine.  I probably won't do much with the stock... since it is a Rem 40-X action, it will drop directly into a M24 stock... My .22 practice sniper riffle is found!  Got a Lupita 6x scope with mildots just waiting to go on it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 19:51:24 (ZULU)

How do I contact George Gardner fellow.

Also nobody's come out of the woods yet and dress up but still carry?

Regards, Ryan

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 20:09:15 (ZULU)

Forgot ofcourse that for a mendula shot to work, the target you are shooting at has got to have a big enough brain so you can actually hit the mendula...maybe cats got more brain mass...

what do you think 'Lito, maybe you can try it with your new R-40x .22 rifle next time you see one of those ferocious cats?  

Talk about stupid....just saw some new footage from CNN about the failed "jail-break" in Afghanistan, they actually showed the faces of SAS guys and US specops shooting m240's (gympy for Pete) alongside N-Aliance troops at the uprising taliban shitheads...guess CNN does not mind that IRA and other terrorist organisations do know how to work a vcr...

Marco.

marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 21:20:49 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43522-2001Dec14.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 21:49:17 (ZULU)

I am not a sniper nor do I play one on TV, but with the number that are in use and with what appears to more use of them, what are they being used for?   I would think that in Urban settings, Police work, and in particular anti terrorist work the gas guns would give the operator a distinctive edge. In the DM role they should be outstanding.  And I refer back to Gooch's article In TS a couple of years ago when the USMC adopted that M-14 something for a DM rifle. Remember the PSG-1 was purpose built to deal with the multi target situations like the Israeli Olympic hostage situation.  Issues like brass flying is a non issue in that your cape or rifle cover generally drops the brass right in front of you( My experience pretending).  As for the fellow that brough up action noise, I think the muzzle sound covers that up nicely, unless a suppressor is used and than again the tools should suite the mission.

Ken M put things quite well.  Personally I would like to see more talk on the DM's and their role, and also what SOCOM and others are using these rifles for.

Take Care

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 22:01:39 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 22:57:03 (ZULU)

Can't comment on the MK II, Mod O thing much. I do know there is serious work going on in the spec ops community...and there has been for awhile. Bits and pieces have floated in from reliable sources. I WILL NOT comment about that on a public forum except to say it appears that work is being done for the spec ops community.

Hot Oldies...married one! Sharran is 13 months older than I am...always liked them older women! Guess I missed most of the exchange. Focused on other things, dammit. Like loading 6.5 X .284...GOTTA get my priorities straight.

Looks like snow this eveing/night. Down to 38 degrees now and "piffling". Expect to see a light white coating in the morn.

All for now...let's keep the conjecture down folks and let our professionals do their work.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 22:58:38 (ZULU)

That's all that matters. All is right with the world.

Bob <rvl@inil.com>
Chicago, IL, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:21:31 (ZULU)

I was last there 5 years ago and they had several arsenal made Enfields and 2 "Peshawar specials" with receivers cut out of solid blocks of steel with hand tools.  Workmanship was excellent, if they hadn't wanted $500 for the handcrafted ones, I'd have bought one for a conversation piece.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:32:10 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:49:34 (ZULU)

Thanks Ya'll

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:57:38 (ZULU)

Nobody shoots naughas nomore. All the cool guys are huntin Avids!

An Avid is an amphibious mammal, this is good because you can be an avid hunter in the fall and winter, and an avid fly fisherman in the spring and summer. Hell I gotta buddy that captured a few, and now he's an avid racer.

Bruce,

Relax...don't hyperventilate...the double was a field grade Spanish gun, it was almost an inch too short in length of pull. So, instead of bollixing up a wood stock extenction, I did a well done rubber pad (if I do say so my self). It didn't cost as much as a new BMW but I still love it. It just needs more company in the safe!

Don't get started on huntin coons. Sgt. Dad will be tellin everyone about the time it was so cold he chattered out the fillings in his teeth ; )

4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
origional, Indian country, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 00:58:07 (ZULU)

Gas guns versus bolt guns? Being a wannabee sniper person I wouldn't go into Injun country with a semi. Give me a bolt gun and my Model 19 and I would be most happy. Spotter and auto yes, sniper and auto no. Will never get to test my theory though so who cares LOL?

Hotties or Hooties? Woops, wrong subject. The lovely Meatwoman exceeds me in age by 6 months but she's not loosing her hair like I am thank goodness. Still dances like a 20 year old pro. Even makes me look good.

Charles, nothing better to wake you up in the morning than a cold rain down your neck, sitting in a tree stand, at daylight, with deer under the stand and you can't move!

"Sir Wesley... the "Over 40 hotties" was about 3 weeks ago... the boltster started it... it wasn't MY fault!... then we've been slidin' down hill ever since ;))"

That's right 'Lito, blame your closet older women desires on the Boltster.

Thomas Cook, flogging is a perfectly acceptable topic. Just last night I told Meatwoman..... Woops, not going there!

Imus rules, just like pork fat!

Jim Mitchell,

I won't get into a pissing contest about the pro's and cons of non-paid versus paid volunteers except to say that 'properly used', both entities have a place in disasters. I know for a fact that you guys weren't the only ones sitting on their asses waiting to go in. Suffice it to say that probably 99% of everyone there were there as volunteers, were there of their own valition and not forced, and were there to help when and if needed. I also won't get into a pissing contest about the constitutionality of taxes. All I know is that I have to pay them, will always have to pay them and if I do have to pay them at least I want my hard earned dollars to go for something that isn't a waste like paying for a some guy taking a shit in an art gallery and calling it artwork. Nuff said on that one!

Start of a good weekend! Going to sit down with the reloading, gun and accessory catalogs and make my slim budget out for next year. Also will have my nightly orgasm while looking at a pic of the G.A. Precision Rock that is hanging in the shop.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 01:21:26 (ZULU)

On the .50 question.

Stick with the MkIV Series Leupolds.  Thier internal shit is rated for .50 recoil/concussion/punishment.  The LR series just uses the normal civvy grade guts that are fine on .308's and the like but might get rattled with a .50.

Other issues are total available elevation come-ups.

I dont care how good of a recoil taming system a .50 has  its still a recoil monster and will eat a scope.  Also use Badger Ordnance .50 cal rings and tapered base on it or the scope might shift in the rings.  The tapered base will help with the elevation capacity also.  

Went through a lot of this stuff at Quantico when the Barretts first came out.

Out

goochkw <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:26:36 (ZULU)

On the .50 question.

Stick with the MkIV Series Leupolds.  Thier internal shit is rated for .50 recoil/concussion/punishment.  The LR series just uses the normal civvy grade guts that are fine on .308's and the like but might get rattled with a .50.

Other issues are total available elevation come-ups.

I dont care how good of a recoil taming system a .50 has  its still a recoil monster and will eat a scope.  Also use Badger Ordnance .50 cal rings and tapered base on it or the scope might shift in the rings.  The tapered base will help with the elevation capacity also.  

Went through a lot of this stuff at Quantico when the Barretts first came out.

Out

goochkw <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:26:36 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$ZKQFRVAAABSBXQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/15/wafg15.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/15/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:31:24 (ZULU)

I have a AR-50, and love it.  First, there are two scope bases available from Armalite... a 15moa taper, and a 55 moa taper... which one did you guys get.  Also, what do you guys call "long range"??  600yds, or 1,800 yds?  All the above will determine what scopes and rings you will need.

If you are going to shoot "urban" you will need a variable.  The Leupolds will take the recoil, so will Nightforce, and Springfield Armory... a lotta guys that shoot 50's have had the Tascos fail (tramatically).

The gun is very accurate, and easy to shoot, but you will need good match ammo (or handloads) to get the potential (less than 1 moa) out of it.  Mil surplus, and junk factory ball stuff like PMC will give you 3" to 4" groups.  And the muzzle blast to the shooter will definitely get his (and everybody elses) attention.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:45:31 (ZULU)

Jim had asked about scopes for .50 cals. We had a number of these at our yearly MG shoot last weekend and all, but one, wore Luppie MK IV M1's. The odd man out had the big Swarovski .50 cal scope and 1500 yard reticle. Talk about NICE! I was afraid to ask how much it set him back. All were mounted on Barrett M82A1's...

Ken has it right. These are made to handle the .50 recoil. Proudly made right here in Oregon.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:49:35 (ZULU)

WINTER PROJECTS...

Just wondering what projects you guys are working on for the winter.

New rifles, packs, ghillies, new ancilliary equipment...? Enquiring minds want to know...besides it may give us something to discuss other than, nutria, nagha's, and hydes;-)

My list is:

1. Carpal tunnel surgery...so I can hold the rifle weight without it hurting line hell.

2. Get back in shape/lose some weight...no sense carrying the equivelent weight of TWO Alice packs!

3. Set up new Alice Medium pack to hold my equipment properly.

  Identify mission essential load and pre-pack(grab and go scenario).

  Identify ancilliary equipment that may be needed for general

  purpose training.

4. Establish winter training regimen...

5. Figure out a way for a few of us to get together and shoot!

Of course this will between my other commitments, honey do's, etc.!

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Wes

P.S. I'm an "avid" reader. Do I add that to the list, too, or just target it?

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 03:17:44 (ZULU)

I been reading your posts about why the gas guns aren't good choices as sniper rifles, but nobody said anything about weight. I got a couple M1A/M25's, and these things weigh about 17LBs or so with optics, and the bipod. I dont think that is realistic weight for a sniper rifle.

I love shooting these rifles, but would not want to have hump one all over creation. I agree, that there are some times when they might be the right tool, but not as a general rule.

I took 'em to a Precision Rifle class this year. I had the only gas gun in the class (duh?). I did okay with it. Even in the Stress Shoot when I had to run a lot and then shoot. The next afternoon the thunderstorms hit hard. Everything was just covered with mud, and all kinds of debris. Two of the Rem 700's locked up tight. Couldn't open the bolts. The shooters were using Blackhills match ammo. I never did find out why that happened? It happened almost as soon as the rains hit. My M1A/M25 worked even though it was covered with mud, and debris. I think the BPT scope mount helped to keep the mud and crap out of the bolt, and the gas helped blow out what crap that did get in there. Any ideas why the bolt guns locked up after they got wet, and dirty? They did get em working again, but it took a while.

Before I get flamed let me say that I am not suggesting any REAL snipers take this as an endorsement to get M25's for their agencies. I am not a Sniper, gun I am not going to become one.

Before I go to another Rifle Class I am going to have me a good bolt gun. The weight of the M25 almost killed me in the stress shoot! And I workout, and do a couple miles a day! Couldn't be that maybe I am getting too old to play anymore? Or could it be that the rifles are just too damn heavy?

Thanks for your posts on this issue. I enjoyed hearing what you guys had to say.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Out Back, KY, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 03:32:25 (ZULU)

Play in all the matches that I can afford,

Finally learn reloading,

Finally get concealed carry,

Improve offhand shooting,

Reduce trigger weights by myself,

New recoil pads and extend LOP,

Practice stripping AR's in the dark, that will be fun,

Loose 20# and get back into some simblance of shape for a man of my aging years,

Etc.

Time for bed, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 04:14:46 (ZULU)

Guys wanting L42 info, i will scan it in when I get home again and mail it.

Hard days hunting yesterday, my dog is beat, not much game about but good to get out with the guys from the Garrison gun/hunting club. My mate the forester managed to find a trench that hadn't been filled in , it looked like a frozen puddle, so he stood on it, crack splash, up to his middle in cold icy water ( we had minus 9 deg C yesterday) gave the rest of us a laugh, still waters run deep.

I have to work today damn and F#@$%&, as it's the Garrison shoot from the other garrison within the Brigade today, and me n the dog ain't there.

So when did the US start using the M240, have you completely got rid of the M60? we call em (as Marco said) Gimpy, or General Purpose Machine Gun (GPMG), L7 A (whatever version they are at now) is the Infantry, "ground" version, I used to realy enjoy working on these,rebuilding them from a pile of bits and building the SF(sustained fire) mounts. I worked on a RADE (Research and developement) project on a man pullable sled, which was air dropable, and had multi functions, doubled as a stretcher and a few other things( sort of a leatherman sled?!) and had an integral GPMG SF mount on it for us in Mountain and Artic warfare, the Marines tested it in Norway, don't know if its still in use in the cold places. It was an interesting project though.. Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 09:11:29 (ZULU)

"Gas guns as sniper rifles IN GENERAL should be avoided.  If you want one to shoot competitions with or sit around and fondle while you watch the discovery channel fine, but not for MOST real world missions."

Kent You ABSOLUTELY slay me!!! Glad to have you here posting again

Brian Sain - Skin Naugas??

I throw them in the wood chipper to clear out the Al Queda residue.

 Off to some more "annual" PDW qualifications and some good ol' fashioned shootski! Yee-hah!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 12:47:41 (ZULU)

Actually, the M2 andare a little too heavy for fonding while watching Discovery! But an M4 Carbine would do nicely.

Our State police use the M14's and M1A's for a "tactical" rifle. I think they like it in the rural areas. They got between 150-200 of em issued to the Troopers. They got Remington Bolt guns for the Snipers.

Their armorer built my M1A/M25's. They're accurate, and fun to shoot, but I need to get me a good bolt gun too.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 13:30:22 (ZULU)

Talley Ho!!

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011215-68264047.htm

This being a deception using a recording of his voice doesn't seem likely.  His forces wouldn't be fighting like this.  I'll give big odds that he's there, and we're closing on him.

"I shall enjoy watching you die."_______________Jabba the Hut

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 14:57:52 (ZULU)

From what I've seen that is a result of not using the proper lube for the situation.  If you use a waterproof grease on the locking lugs and cocking notch a lot of that can be avoided.  Also, when single loading bullets some guys let the rounds get dirty in unsavory weather conditions which can lock up in the chamber.

I had all of this happen to me in a down pour in Canada a few years ago.  

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 15:40:01 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45355-2001Dec14.html

Thank God for the quality of our civilian leadership and the professionalism and dedication of the good men on the cutting edge of this.  

Churchill said of the RAF pilots, "Never have so many owed so much to so few."  Our SOF hasn't beat that record, but our men have sure done a job.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 16:37:39 (ZULU)

 Yeah M1a's are heavy as hell when you get em scoped up. It's a nice semi and after some gun smithin I finally got mine where the ejector wouldn't fly off the end of the bolt everytime I closed it on a new magazine...but I just didn't get good results and the mount didn't old up well.

  I use no grease at all on my Bolt rifles, taking care that no oil builds up in the bolt. I've not had any problem down to -14 degrees, but it warn't rainin either.

TEST

  I put a Leupold std mount on my .308 and went out everyday and shot it at 100 with it dead zeroed. I didn't mistreat it other than just put it in the jeep and drive out a couple miles to the range. I've used STDs for hunting for years. Just as often as every time I went out the impact point had shifted 1". Groups seemed to run about 3/4" though. No more than that but everytime it went off to the side or up and down.  I changed to a weaver base and an Old B-square mount and repeated the test for a week. I don't believe it (cause I was out to prove these mounts didn't shift) every shot was within 1/2" of the dead center of that target. All the groups were tighter and the gun is still on after going through a couple of weeks of deer season. Guess I'm a little slow to catch on....Gooch and Pat and Catman and just about everyone here has been tellin me that for about 5 years now.

   My caller companion dropped his a-bolt 22-250 and std. Leupold mounted (sheperd scope) last weekend while trying to crawl up a abandoned combine to get better visual. It scratched the scope and bent the whole thing about 4 feet elevation. We don't know if it was the scope or mount or the carbolite barrel that bent. ... but we ran out of "down" and had to shim the scope to get it back on. We will probably have a report on what happened soon. I'll move the scope to another rifle and put another on the Browning A-bolt carbon barrel 22-250. (we think it was just the scope).

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 17:32:44 (ZULU)

The rifle was close to zero at 100 yards.  I say close to zero because it had been zeroed at 100 with a 42 gr. load of Varget, I'd changed it to 44 gr. and hadn't had time to rezero.  We guessed at a come-up for 600 and I fired.  My first shot was on paper, and it only took us a couple of adjustments to get more or less on center.

I was shooting Sierra 168SMKs over 44.0 gr. of Varget and Federal brass.

After sighting adjustments I only got one five round group off, and I didn't get to see the target, a guy down in the pits would put an orange marker where I hit for each shot, but I estimate the one five round group was around 7-8" in size.  My second shot of the group actually shot off, and destroyed, the marker stuck in the first hole.  I giggled like a little girl at that, and I saw it happen through the scope.  For me, considering I was feeling rushed by the guys who were close to wanting to leave, and I didn't take all the time I should have to get everything perfect, I was pleased with this.  It was my first time at 600 yards.  The next time the 600 yard line will be open will be the middle of January.  Ouch!  It could be 0 degrees F, or it could be 32 degrees F, who knows.  I plan on going to that one and being on time.  It was in the low 40s to upper 30s today, which all things considered wasn't bad considering the date.

The hard-cores who were there this morning said sometimes in the winter they'll have to dig in down through the snow, and guys will be shooting out of sleeping bags!  Talk about dedication.  As for me, I'm all for it.  I need to know what it's like shooting in the deep freeze and snow, and I need to make sure I can do it, and have the right clothing, gloves, etc.  I liked the ideas several of you emailed me about gloves.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 17:40:06 (ZULU)

I kind of thought maybe the grease that those guys had used was not weather proof. You ever see the GI grease that comes in the little plastic cups with the yellow tops? I used that stuff for a while on the M1 Garand, and the M1A's. Then in the dead of winter I decided that I needed to shoot one of the M1A's. It was about 15F outside. The M1A would not cycle. I had me really heavy single shot rifle. I bought some Shooter's Choice Hi-Tech grease that day. I stripped all of that GI stuff out of there, and lubed it with the Hi-Tech grease. No problems with function down to -9F. And the rifle works good in the rain too.

I went to Las Vegas this year to shoot in the World Championship 3 Gun Tactical Matches. I used the Bushmaster AR15 in the rifle stages. Because of so much blowing sand, and dust I washed all of the lube out of the reciever, and off the bolt carrier. I used Remington Dri-lube, and the rifle functioned flawlessly for 3 days. I used the same stuff on the Glock with good results.

I asked some other shooters why they thought the Remington 700's locked up in the rain, and they said it was probably due to using wrong kind of lube. They said some lube just turns to paste when it gets wet, and has no lubricating property anymore. Of course, the shooter may have chambered some dirty ammo too. Maybe a little of both?

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 19:12:21 (ZULU)

Dang it, now I have to find base, rings and a scope that will match a silver barrel, blue receiver and black stock. The safety is going to take getting use to I can tell right off the bat. This is my first stainless barrel riffle. Anything special that I need to do with it other than shoot it?

Now I need the action screw torque values for a Winchester so you guys hep me out here.

Hoping for the best, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 19:52:06 (ZULU)

I have heard a lot of great things about varget, and thought I would check out Hodgons website.  They claim that the powders temperature variations are less than 10 fps from 0-125 degree changes in temperature.  I am thinking about trying the H4350, and haven't tried varget because I like factory Blackhills 175 so much.

Are these powders really that temperature insensitive?

I am also looking for some good load data for the 300 WSM, if anyone has any?

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 19:53:17 (ZULU)

  Seriously why do bolt rifles need Lube on the bolt? Or m1a or other Semi's 's for that matter. I think the gas piston works get some lube but I'm not sure about the wisdom of that in inclimate weather?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 20:18:29 (ZULU)

Another possibility regarding bolt guns being tied up in wet weather:

Rifle with match spec chambers can be overly sensitive to water in the chamber.  When fired, the brass has nothing to hold onto...the water acting as though it were grease on the case.  The pressure is taken by the bolt alone.....effect like an overload.  Can tie up the rifle and blow primers.  Have had it happen to me twice on the line at Camp Perry in rain storms.  Wacked the bolt with a plastic mallet to get it open and again to extract the case.....got right back in operation.  If the primer is blown, check to make sure it's not still in the action raceway or lug recesses, cuz that could really tie it up much worse.

Happy Holidays! (Could be the best yet if they finally blow Osama out of his socks!)

Saverio Scozzafava <scozz@prexar.com>
Bangor, Maine, USA - Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 20:41:21 (ZULU)

Just checked the trigger pull also. The guy had it set to 1#. Now I need to read Cat Terminator's article on Winchester trigger adjustment.

Bolt is kinda floppy also, which really plays with this weird safety which is noisey as hell. Me thinks me needs a pro to do some pro tweaking on this toy.

Maybe its the rookie in me, but I don't see the need for greasing anything on a rifle. I think it would be the same as for fishing reels. I never grease or oil any gears or moving parts that mesh and  are open to the elements especially on salt water reels. Just begging for stuff to attach itself to the grease and bind up the works. Seems like a light coat of non-TPFE oil would suffice if it has to be done at all.

Hoping I didn't trade for a pig in a poke, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday,