Thanks for the responses on stretching.  I am seriously lacking in the limber department.  Going to work on that though.  The only stretching I do for the GROIN is the standard legs apart-lean forward.  PeteR, you must be kiddin about putting my elbows on the floor.  I have a LOOOOOOOOng way to go befor that happens.  But, like I said, I am going to work on it.  Bolt, I will follow your sequence of body parts with regards to stretching.

You fellars have a good night.  Catch you later this weekend.

BTW, I picked up a 0-30 in-lb Seekonk torque wrench on Ebay for $10.  Now I am set.

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 00:46:00 (ZULU)

I do understand that unprotected cpr on a stranger is like playing Russian Roullette, but I think it's the price of being human.

When the plane crashes in the cold water, are you going to be the one that takes the rescue harness immediately when it comes to you, or are you going to put the person next to you in it who looks like they might not survive till the next round?  Even if you know it puts your life at risk?  People pull folks out of burning cars or houses even though they might get burned. People run out into the street to grab that kid chasing the ball even though it might get them run over.  It's just the human response I think.

So yes, when there's a car accident and that stranger stops breathing, and I know the paramedics are probably just five or ten minutes away, I think I'll take my chances with the funky diseases.  It would be a lot easier to live with myself with some funky disease knowing I saved someone's life, than to blame myself for their death for the rest of my life knowing I coulda saved them, only to find out after they were dead that they were perfectly fine and disease-free, and woulda lived if I'd just shared some air with them for a few minutes.

Of course, I have my limits.  When the wacked out heroin addict ODs and stops breathing with vomit hanging down her chin, I'm think I'm probably gonna have to pass.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 00:54:29 (ZULU)

"Of course, I have my limits.  When the wacked out heroin addict ODs and stops breathing with vomit hanging down her chin, I'm think I'm probably gonna have to pass."

In all other instances, I would take the chance even though some apparently healthy individuals, aren't. I have seen in real life the example above and I feel that if the person thinks no more of their life than that, well.......

Stalking question.......

When moving from a tree line to a field, how do you garnish the ghillie with field vegitation without getting caught?

Paul,

When I slowed to a crawl my martial arts work bout 8 years ago, I could put my forehead on the floor with a front wide leg stretch. Belly is too big now, not to mention I don't have the desire for that much pain anymore. Where most people make mistakes in stretching are 1)not breathing properly 2)not relaxing/concentrating and 3)going too fast too soon. Without oxygen, lactic acid builds up and your muscles tighten up.

Camo mixing.....

Watching a show on MSNBC showing the Marines wearing desert camo and OD load bearing gear. Why???????????

Too many subjects tonight, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 01:49:44 (ZULU)

Scored a Pre-64 M-70 Winchester in .264 Win. Mag. today for the princely sum of $325.00! Stock is oil soaked, rifle has seen rough use, but been cared for...obviously a working rifle. Most of the blue is gone off the stainless barrel. Some "browning" on the action, but no pits, etc. When I pulled it out of the stock there was NO rust under the wood! This is the action designated and stamped .458 on the bottom of the recoil lug and is specifically for the short magnum family(.264,.300,.458). Hmmm, I sense a "magnum" sniper in my future!

Serial Number is: 517614. Which should put it in the first years of production for the .264. Can anyone confirm year of manufacture for me? I'm jazzed...just fell into this one...

On other notes:

Bolt, you commented on why the Marines had Desert Cammies and O.D. web gear. Simple...they only issue O.D. web gear. In fact I have a picture of a stunningly handsome Marine Major in the desert dressed the same way. Desert Hat, Cammies, Flack Vest cover, and O.D. web gear! One reason we are always cost effective. Got my "desert boots" issued after the conflict! Of course the guys in the rear all had them!

On stretching...used to do Tae Kwon Do and was limber. I'm 5'4" and I could put my foot in the ear of a guy over 6' with one foot still on the ground. Today, all they'd hear are screams, tearing muscles, etc. Screw it! I'll just shoot'em and claim old age as the excuse!

Dennis, your .308 could be built by a number of good gunsmithes. Take warning...Tactical Rifles are generally NOT best built by the local gun plumber or the guy "that's cheap". Remember, you are betting your life, your team members, and potential hostages lives on it's performance. I would recommend Jerry Rice or George Gardner equally. For gas guns Geoff. Corn is the man, IMHO.

Iron Brigade Armory makes a hell of a rifle, but the tariff is considerably more than Jerry or George. At these levels of performance the shooter becomes the weak link...

Blood...scares the shit out of me. Have seen my share. In a third world country I wouldn't touch anyone except for my team. Some of those places are 90%+ infected with AIDS(just when you thought there was no hope).

I wouldn't blame police for not touching a suspect they'd shot or had been injured. The penalty is just to severe.

All for now...the .264 barrel comes off tomorrow!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 02:41:04 (ZULU)

Sad, Sad, Sad. Maybe they could at least give the soldier guys a can of tan paint to spray the gear with.

Yep, I remember the days of high kicking. I my aged condition, I now see the benefit of below the belt, or knee, techniques when all else fails.

Bed time, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 03:07:36 (ZULU)

Thank you for your kind offer of $1.00 profit on my investment. Of course I did strip it and clean it...that means about .50 cents per hour for my labor. YOU ARE TO KIND, SIR!

Think I'll keep it just the same...You'd probably want ME to pay shipping anyhow!

You made the big mistake, Bolt. "Soldier guys" would be tacky enough to use tan spray paint. Marines NEVER would. Being smart enough to know that after a day or two in the sand your gear is going to be "naturally" camoflauged anyway...

Gotta go...feel the need to kiss the Winchester...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 03:48:14 (ZULU)

I have been reading all the stuff on Sniper Country for the last 7 weeks.  All the FAQ and reviews of weapons etc.  I just want to thanks everyone and the folks who maintain the site.  You have performed a valuable service and helped a clay target shooter fall in love with the rifle.  I go out all the time now and work on my basic marksmanship.  I never thought the rifle good be so fun.

Thanks  Frank Laureano

Frank Laureano <bamadawg@medscape.com>
God'sCountry, Alabama, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 04:20:38 (ZULU)

Awesome, just awesome.  I was about to purchase a spotting scope when I heard about your "little" project.  Glad I waited for your results.  Just ordered one, which one you will have to guess!

Thanks for the great work!

Tony V. <longdistancereaper@hotmail.com>
CO, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 04:21:44 (ZULU)

Give George Gardner a call especially since you are close by! I flew out and spent a couple of days watching him make a rifle for me (my sixth!) I was mighty impressed at the amount of time and precision that takes to make those guns consistantly shoot so well.

If you are looking for a M40A1 type rifle check out Mike Miller's review of the "Rock." Most of the pictures included in that review are of my rifle. I love it! (Especially if I have to carry it)

I have handled and fired five different GA Precision "Rock" rifles and each one was amazingly accurate and well balanced. Mike and George both loaned students different "rock" rifles that they broght as extra rifles at the ASA class in New Mexico last summer. Each student wanted  to take the rifle home with them at the end of the class as well!

The delivery time is very reasonable, I think if there is any wait it would be due to McMillian's production schedule. I also know that you could buy two full custom GA Precision rifles for a Chandler.

I don't work for the guy, but I like his stuff and I would hate for you to spend 2x what you need to and have it take 10x as long to get to you.

The above comments come from somebody who is VERY particular about details, (Performance, fit, finish, and price) Just ask George or Mike Miller!)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 04:50:51 (ZULU)

I don't know of a cop anywhere who doesn't carry at least two pair of gloves just for bloody perps and victims. Antibacterial gels/wash etc carried in all squads and most brief cases. Pretty much annual training for things such as bloodborne pathogens. Training always done by local paramedics stressing ALWAYS using universal precautions. No need to "catch" something for sake of negligence in not using protection. Hmmm, sounds kinda like sex ed.

Other than that, I just imagine a bad scene as for field dressing my deer. Helped once to go hunting with the local medical Examiner. Hell, we spent an hour disecting his deer. Learned a lot.  Autopsys just need frame of mind that the "meat" on table is just that. Pizza & c-gars is the norm here. The only blood spilled in quantity that scares me would be mine.

Most cpr situations we see are old folks who stand about a 1% chance of recovery from cardiac arrest anyhow. Just instruct a family member to do breaths & I do compressions. Better way to supervise situation anyhow. In a county with volunteer rescue services, we keep at it till victim gets loaded into meat wagon.  Blood is just another part of the job.

Well, gotta get ready to send in $$ for my winning ticket.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 06:04:54 (ZULU)

Hi Guys,

I've started weighing my cases and seem to remember someone mentioning a tolerance of 1%.  Is that +/- 1%, or within 1% (+/- 0.5%)?  Or am I just imagining the 1% thing, if so what should the tolerance be?

As always, any help or comments will be gratefully received.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 10:44:17 (ZULU)

On case weighing.  Keep in mind that brass has a specific density of around of around 9, and powders have a volumetric density of about 0.9 (brass is 10 times more dense).  So a 308 case that is 10 grains lighter than another, will hold 1 grain more (to the same level).

I ran a test some years back with a .308... 10 cases were 155gr, and 10 were 175gr.  There wes 125 fps difference in the average velocity of the two batches... so draw your own conclusions.

When you buy "weighed" cases, they generally come as +/- 1 grain, or +/- 2 grains... I've never seen a "weighed" spread larger than that.  The average 308 case weighs 175 grains (military is around 185gr)... so that equals plus or minus 1/2% to 1%...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 11:33:33 (ZULU)

"Being smart enough to know that after a day or two in the sand your gear is going to be "naturally" camoflauged anyway..."

This rings true...

Long long ago and far far away we'd make the trip over the Cascades to Yakima to train.  The uniform was OG-107s.  After a day in the desert everyone was fully camouflaged by the dust and grime.  It's amazing how quickly everything gets coated.

Ref: Stretching

One word....Yoga.  It may seem "sissy" but if you've never done it you can't appreciate its worth.  It can be a great workout and it helps keep you limber benifits your shooting.  Try it.

Ref: Blood & Goo

Whatever...you do what you must.  Try not to be stupid.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 11:33:37 (ZULU)

I was a group coordinator on an HIV research project at a NYC hospital about 7 years ago... we were instructed by the CDC that ALL moist surfaces were fully contagious... lips, tears, open lesions, etc.

Also, all equipment in contact with the patients was to be wiped down with disinfectant.

All 34 of the patients died... so don't be stupid, that blood and goo will take you out (and it's a real shitty way to go)!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 11:55:22 (ZULU)

Interesting........

I've been a "Certified" (hee-hee) ARC-PDT/BBP Instructor for over seven years, in addition to lotsa other "cross training" and multi-tasking. *:-0

 The spin put on that particular subject by certain agencies until it was WAY too late for exposure controls(pre-1985) is abhorrent to say the least.

 Can't get it from bug bites, (e.g. the sandy beaches) but you can from a needle?

 Can't get it from regular kissing, but you can from "deep kissing"?

Contagion Risk is greater with the Hep's C,D,& E, MDR STD's or so they say. BUT - they will all kill you slow and ugly.

Just frigging be safe, practice universal precautions, and USE PROTECTION!!!!

oh well offtha soapbox time to get beat up with sticks & swords

Chop-ski

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 13:02:10 (ZULU)

One way of checking to see if you are about to laod an imminent separation case (because you don't know or can't remember how many reloads you have on that case, or you shoot self-loaders a lot and have mixed brass):

Get yourself a pediatric otoscope (one of those flashlight things an Eye-Ear-Nose-and-Throat guy looks into your kid's ear when he's not feeling swift.  Plastic ones with a light can go anywhere from $20-40) or the fiber-optic deal that fits on a 2-battery Mini-Mag Lite (around $5 at the hardware store).  De-prime the case, and either look into the case mouth with the otoscope, or put the lit fiber-optic into the flash hole and look into the case for a weakening "Ring" from headspace stretch.  A visual check will beat a "paper clip" check every time, and you can make the eyeball determination whether to reload the case or just throw it in the garbage bin.

If you don't know the history of your loaded cases, get an "Echo" brand case extractor from Brownell's for about $12.00.  If you pull back on the bolt and the front half of the case is stuck in the chamber (and the case head flies off into space somewhere on extraction and ejection), take the Echo and put it into the chamber and push the bolt forward.  The Echo jams into the stuck part of the broken case, and the base of the Echo locks into your extractor on the bolt face like a regular cartridge.  When you pull back on the bolt the whole deal is ejected and you're back into service in less than a minute.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 13:28:08 (ZULU)

Then I drove through the damn Friday rush hour traffic to get to the piggie woods, why does it piss down with rain just as soon as I get near a tree? I stayed there all night(13 hours) and didn't see a squirrel never mind a wild boar, Despite the crappy storm weather visibility in the woods was excellent for shooting (full moon) but not too bright, I guess every self respecting pig found a dry hole under some bushes last night, Prayin' for dry weather and some frost !!

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 13:31:16 (ZULU)

One of the things we do SF-wise when working joint-combined urban (especially with large target buildings or blocks) is to give your counterpart one of your radios (one per sniper team is ideal, but not often do-able) or an LNO.  There's at least one LNO in the counterpart's sniper TOC.

Exercises and standardization help coordinate the whole shooting match.  Let's say the supported unit is providing some assault units, all outer perimeter security, or supplemental sniper support.  Sure would be nice if everybody can get SITREP changes or mission changes at the same time.

Is everyone involved intimately familiar and trained on how  sniper-initiated assaults are going to be coordinated?  Same countdowns?  Who's in control?  A command-initiated or event-initiated assault for actions on the objective?  Sad to say most small- and medium sized (and some large-city) teams have no no-shit exercised SOPs within their own departments, let alone inter-agency (city-county, city-Fed, inter-county, etc.)

National standards shouldn't be that hard to establish (hell, everyone uses variants of Jeff Cooper's 4 rules of gun handling).  It's not rocket science.  Everyone's carrying a variant of the same gun now anyways (say a 700PSS with some type of Leupold variable, shooting 168 Fed Match?).

What would it look like?  Maybe "Maintain/document first round 100-yard, cold, point of impact hit within 1 inch of center of a 1-inch diameter round paster once every 30 days, both day and night."  That's a 2 (?) MOA standard with a .223 or .308 700.  Is that to much to ask?  If it is, people should be turning in long guns, or moving in closer.

I think it's a case of some organizations afraid of stating a standard, or a pride thing ("We're not going to use NRA Law Enforcement Training Standards because they're not the FBI's", or "I read in the NTOA Journal why this one's better than the Bureau's", or maybe "We have no idea what we want.")

In the 2nd Infantry Division during DMZ mission, snipers were expected to comfirm cold zero EVERY OTHER DAY.  In other units our standard was  at least every other week.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 13:59:14 (ZULU)

 Morning all - the raffle is at 187 tix, will close at 23:30 Zulu (today).

Pete, Marius, Scott, Sarge - since you hawgs aren't receiving the raffle registry this time - you're surely invited to play.

take care hawgs... Major's calling with her hunny do plan for today

Ken

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 14:07:26 (ZULU)

Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 14:58:00 (ZULU)

CPR does not work on trauma arrests....  Don't do CPR on people who have gone into cardiac arrest due to trauma, they ain't gonna make it.

CPR works best under one of the these three situations:

asphyxia - esp drowning

electricution

sudden cardiac arrest - a buddy just drops suddenly and you start CPR right away

Please confirm this with ANY paramedic that really does the job...they all know the truth.

ps- those cheapo plastic mouth thingies don't work well...if you want to be prepared, get a disposable Bag/Valve mask....also known as an "AMBU" bag...they should cost you about $20 from the local medical supply outfit.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 15:09:35 (ZULU)

Enough of the yucky stuff, back to designing next years deer stands and making up gear wish lists, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 15:47:48 (ZULU)

Is the M-24 stock and the PSS stock the same except for the adjustable LOP? If not, does the M-24 stock have the same palm swell?

I am bored out of my friggin mind!  Going to find something to do.  Catch ya'll later.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 16:40:33 (ZULU)

... back in the early 80's, when people's homes were being burned, infected kids (with hemophlia) were being run out of schools, and congress was seriously talking about internment camps for the infected.

The freeze was put on real info, and a PC smoke screen was laid out to calm the public.  In hindsight, I'm not sure that it was the right approach, as HIV/AIDS is spreading like wildfire, and the media are avoiding it like the plague (that was a "Pun").

Even today, you can get all the demographic data on any disease you want from the CDC, except AIDS... a request (on Hospital letterhead) will get you "Well, we haven't gathered that information yet!".... HA!. the most studied disease in history, and they don't know who has it, and where the centers of infection are???

-

Paul... The M-24 stock is very similar to the PSS, except that the barrel channel is straight, because the M-24 barrel is straight... and it has the adjustable LOP... the insides are the same, and the palm swell is the same... you can buy a version of the M-24 stock for the Remington medium weight barrels (PSS/VSS).

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 17:32:49 (ZULU)

1st rule is victim died for a reason.  Trauma or bad stuff.

If Trauma/shock I would feel better about doing CPR

If no trauma I have to consider what killed them?  Heart Attack? TB,AIDS Hep A-Z or methal ethel badshit?

Then I consider how my family would do without me.

Then if they have family why the family did not learn CPR, because frankly thats why I learned not to save some homeless guy who has more stuff wrong than I could ever hope to live through.

The I determine how long until a Paramedic get to the scene.  Its usually less than a minute after me so I go through the check this and that until they arrive.

Now this may seem heartless to you guys but the only protection they have ever given me as a cop was the little valve that keeps the lips from touching but the throw up comes right back through so no dice.  Hell when I saw the thing I called it a Fart Whistel and thats what it is good for.  They would not buy us bags because the cost and training.

Now a few may say "Cops get paid to do CPR" Wrong we get paid for keeping you safe.  I do unprotected CPR and you lose a cop because they did not train or outfit me to do CPR safely.  Its not all nice and clean like TY.  The victims are crack heads, IV drug users and homeless all with bad shit in them.

Now kids are different I dont know any cops that would not try with every means to save kids.

You worried about us not doing CPR on your loved ones learn it for yourself.

Just an opinion after twenty one years in the making.

Undude

MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 17:41:43 (ZULU)

Is it a legal requirement to carry a first aid kit in every civilian vehicle in the US like it is here? Our first aid kit at work has all these protective bits n pieces in it, even got a pump thing for EAR, and some mouth pieces etc, I carry a box of surgical gloves in my car(for gralloching game) and there are some in the cars 1st aid kit any how.

And do they teach first aid in schools in the US, I always thought it would be a good idea, I mean what good is it to you knowing all the algebra in the world, and the capital city of Goatmilkistan, when your Grandmother has a heart attack in the living room and you are the only one there, that school tought first aid would sure come in handy.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 17:53:14 (ZULU)

I don't know personally of any schools in the US that teach first aid. Some may cover it in home ec or health but I doubt it. We would rather teach the history and evolution of "Who Gives A Shit" than real world stuff that may could be useful.

Not required to carry a kit in vehicle, but I have a pretty extensive one. I always double glove.

Mike,

The MEBS is the stuff that I really worry about. Even though through the hospital and SORT I get Hep A and C vaccines, there are other things out there that you can catch and not get rid of. Victim triage is a bitch. Over 50% of unwitnessed traumas and MI's result in death. Most witnessed (don't have percentage handy) result in death.

Yucky stuff talk over now, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 18:15:13 (ZULU)

The thing with emergecy medical care is that it has to be done perfect, the first time, immediately, for it to work.  You need a whole lot of "hands on" to get it right...

ON CPR for the family... Mike M., get a bag valve mask... it is more effective than mouth to mouth.  The whole voodoo about not using them on kids is based on fact, but not completely valid... (typical of the weak training afforded the average field technician from the elitist MDs who supress all efforts to allow Paramedic recognition for thier skill and professionalism....)

An excited rescuer can cause baro-trauma to the lungs of a youngster by over-infalting them.... but a living kid with lung damage can heal... a dead kid with perfect lungs is still dead.  All you really need to do is squeeze the bag without "hulk hogan" force...

common sense.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 18:27:00 (ZULU)

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 18:32:24 (ZULU)

Question - Will a stock made for a Rem700 to "drop in" also accept a 40X (or are those 2 actions completly different critters)???

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 18:47:40 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

I would like to start to get used to shooting from a pack (instead of just the bipod).  I'm not mil or LE so I don't need a high tech Balckhawk or Eagle backpack.  If I go to a local Sunny's (Army-Navy store around here), what kind of surplus pack should I look for?  Also, since I'm not a sniper and I won't need all sorts of mission specific goodies in it, what the hell should I put in it to give me the proper support?

Also on a different topic, I've been saving my goobers and hope to get a custom riffle within the next couple years.  Now this may seem like a stoopid question, but what is "clip slotting", is it really necessary (are your personal rifles clip slotted) and who does it?

Have a great weekend and good luck on the riffle raffle!

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
WTF?!..The x-mas tree's up and it's 72 friggin' degrees here in Bal'mer, MD, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 19:22:49 (ZULU)

they are not important.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 19:56:13 (ZULU)

"A friend (younger by 20 years) recently made a comment that at my "age" grabbing all my gear and running into the hills probably wasn't possible anymore. I told him he was right, but what I've lost in speed and endurance I've made up for with more accurate shot placement.

In other words...DO NOT make me feel like "running" is my only option!"

http://ubb.plainsmanscabin.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

For us old geezers! Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 20:00:48 (ZULU)

I agree with Danny Mull:  Check G.A. Precision out.  They are co-located with Denny's Guns, in North K.C.  Call before you go, and plan on going in after 1300 HRS.  You should probably take your McMillan-stocked Winchester in and show it to George.  He might be able to do what you want with your M70, or you might want to go whole-hog with one of George's "Rocks."  Have a talk with him, and look at his work before you go anywhere else.  

There are, by reputation (at least, on THIS website), perhaps a half-dozen American shops (including G.A. Precision) that regularly turn out truly top-drawer tactical rifles.  I trust that you will (eventually) be fully satisfied with the rifle you get from any of them.  If you've ever experienced the frustration of dealing with first-rate craftsmen located across the country from you, or tried your luck with local "gun-plumbers," you will be delighted with having G.A. Precision right across town!  Actually knowing the man who built your equipment permits you a measure of confidence in it which is otherwise attainable only through long trial and experimentation.

Cheers!

Earl North <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
K.C., MO, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 20:41:11 (ZULU)

Also a very interesting article about the spread of hemorragic disease in the refugee camps that might be bio-war related.

Clip slots- looked at the relation of the receiver bridge to the mag well in a Remington SA.  That clip slot must be hellaciously deep, the thumb relief cut on a M40 was pretty impressive.  Come to think of it, I've never actually seen the slots-always covered by a scope mount.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 22:08:46 (ZULU)

I've taken the first step... The FagMag donor 30-06 is in the gun cabinet.  

It's a long and twisted road, glad I got a good tailgate to ride along on.. Thanks guys.

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 22:16:26 (ZULU)

Get a medium ALICE with frame.  Stuff a field jacket in it and a poncho liner.  If you do not have a poncho liner, get one or two.  That is one of the best pieces of gear ever.  

Still bored!  Got a cherry pie in the oven though.  I figure that if I work on that for a while, I will need ( like) the down time.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 22:28:22 (ZULU)

One of the benefits of Uechi Ryu karate is the ability of its practitioners to repeatedly deliver kicks to the opponent's head - AFTER unceremoniously dropping opponent on his/her ass.  :-)

Uechi leg and knee strikes are mostly directed to the outer leg muscles or knee joints.  Anything above the waist is reserved for the hands and elbows.

Stretching follows a pattern working up from the feet to the neck.  Slow and easy or you get major problems.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 23:04:18 (ZULU)

 THE RIFFLE RAFFLE REGISTRATION IS CLOSED. GET YOUR PAYMENTS IN AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

CLICK ON MY NAME OR GO TO:

http://aspiringtech.net/raffle/november_raffle.htm

HIT THE "PAY FOR TICKET" BUTTON AND FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS FROM THERE. WE TAKE PAYPAL, CHECKS, CASH, OR MONEY ORDERS.

WE CAN NOT ACCEPT: GOLD, BAD CHECKS, CREDIT CARDS, OR CONCUBINES.

(THE MAJOR THREW IN THE 'NO CONCUBINES' RULE :)

FOR THOSE THAT ARE USING THE POSTAL SERVICE FOR PAYMENT - PLEASE TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND GET YOUR PAYMENT INTO MONDAY'S MAIL. I WOULD LIKE TO GET THIS ALL DONE BEFORE THE CHRISTMAS WAVE HITS.

WE SOLD 195 TICKETS. THIS IS 5 SHORT OF 200 (makes your chances that much better)  - HOWEVER WE WILL AWARD THE PRIZES.

THANKS HOGS... :)

SEMPER FI,

KEN

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 23:18:26 (ZULU)

Go talk to George Gardner! I have shot some of his rifles, and he has made two trips down here to BadLands and to say the least..I was VERY impressed with the quality of rifles he is turning out. ALL shot subminute of angle all the way out to 1000 yards. He also brought down an AR-10 and he personally shot a 3.75 in (4shots) group at 1000 with it! Give him a call...Bet he can set you up!

Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 00:09:02 (ZULU)

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 00:52:38 (ZULU)

>Janes (janes.com) seems to think the extended ranges in Osamastan

>will put the 5.56mm SAW at a disadvantage with the 7.62 Russion

>LMG/GPMG.  Might be interesing.

Can you say 7.62x51mm M240G? Or .50cal M2HB?  I don't think the Marines will have any problem closing with or destroying the enemy, now if we could just locate the bastard...

Any special considerations when redrilling and retapping a receiver for a scope base?  Thinking about converting all four holes to 8x40, it's a Badger base on a 700 action.  Any thoughts?

Semper Fi

Snider <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
11th MEU, USMC, US of A - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 00:57:21 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$Q5HXLYQAABUW1QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/02/wsas102.xml

101st and 82nd on standby.  This (Brit paper) says SAS is carrying the ball.  Sketchy (dis?)info on a contemplated full frontal assault Tora Bora.  Sounds squirrely.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$Q5HXLYQAABUW1QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/02/wsas02.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/02/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 01:49:37 (ZULU)

    Thanks for the CALL.  And the thought...

    Off to play in the switching heavy wind, rain, and mud puddles tomorrow at Mudville.  Oughta be hoot!  (Meaning I probably won't shoot fer sh*t, but I'll have fun anyway.)

    Glad my oldest boy (Air Farce at Ramstein) scored me a new ECWCS system.  Got my Danner Acadias.  At least I won't be too cold and wet while "searching" for the black.  HA HAAA!

    Anybody know of a way to fold and secure the hood on the ECWCS parka?

    "Lito, got the baro., temp., wind gizzy from that Science website you turned me on to.  Neat litle rig.  Muchas Grassy-ass!

Spud,

SEMPER-FI!

Watch your ASSES Jarheads!!  (in Ass-stan)

Out

dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, kalifornicateya, USA - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 01:58:07 (ZULU)

I mean, I try to get the clip into the slots to feed the rounds, but the scope base covers the slot space, then the damn scope covers the whole thing, and I can't get that damn clip in there, to feed the boolets??

How come yours doesn't cover the slot???  You using one of those "Scout scopes" on the barrel??

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 02:08:13 (ZULU)

Peter

peter <fmtmal@frontiernet.net>
- Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 03:53:01 (ZULU)

Paypal, Ive tried to use this before and the damn thing can't cope with the fact that Ive got an english bank account but live in Germany, and then it gets screwed by the fire wall here. I will try it again though.

Snider, brownells have the required taps, and a carbide drill bit is a good idea, pretty simple job but one that can ruin an action if you get it wrong and wander the holes of centre or snap something just when it gets criticle, if your unsure get it done for you. otherwise just make sure you drill and tap squarely. you might have to relieve the base holes for the bigger heads on the 8x40 screws, but Ive got 2 types of screw, one has bigger heads the other has very small heads compared to the size of the screw, I don't use the small head ones, prefering to have more of a mating surface under the head. It is a good idea to remove the barrel to drill the forward most hole, not 100% nessesary depending on your drill and tap, but easier, and it eliminates the possibility of you getting carried away and drilling into the barrel(use the depth stop on the drill press if you leave the barrel on) you may laugh, but I've seen guys loose concentration and do this(no not me, I whip the barrel off) and give the action a good clean and remove all burrs when your done. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 06:13:17 (ZULU)

Rich,

Pack shooting vs bi-pod vs bench, etc.

Your choice. I prefer the pack. I have a day pack I use and a Medium Alice for when I'm going to be afield longer than a day. Accuracy is good from the pack and it feels like I'm more responsive to changes than when on a bi-pod. Personal preference. I have and use both. Suppose it's more situational.

Take care,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 06:53:22 (ZULU)

Great site.

A few weeks ago, someone mentioned the B 52 tips (lessons learned).  I've searched around the web and have not been able to find a site that has them.

If anyone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

On the subject of building rifles, are any of you familiar with Bruce Dow in Florida?  I've seen some of the rifles he's built / tuned and they shot 1/2 MOA or less.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
FL, USA - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 07:57:09 (ZULU)

Clip slotting:  I'm the other school of thought on clip slotting.  I believe that clip slotting is an integral step in producing a hardened rifle.  The clip slot is not used for reloading in a match.  It serves as a recess to lock the lugged scope mounts produced by Dan Ross and Badger Ordnance onto the receiver.  Properly fitted, the scope rail must be hammered off if you ever need to remove it.  It is the system used by USMC, Dan Ross, Chandler, TBA, etc. to remove one more variable from the firing equation.  Email me at wharding@tampabay.rr.com and I'll send you a few pictures.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 12:19:39 (ZULU)

Since the last lottery I won was the 1970 draft lottery, I hope the winner is properly appreciative of my contribution.

Ken- If there are inspection rights to concubines, perhaps something can be worked out if someone else "takes delivery"?  Although 'Litos comments about "any moist surface/tissue being disease bearing" is discouraging.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 12:43:33 (ZULU)

I've been reading the Duty Roster for awhile now, and enjoy a lot of the information here.

I'll chime in when I think I can lend to the conversation.

Thanks for the invite Ken.

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 12:48:35 (ZULU)

Best of luck if'f you head that direction.

On the drill & tap.  Don't really believe the 700 action requires a carbide bit for drilling out the holes-unless you're dealing with stainless.  You might want to very carefully try the rearmost hole with a high carbon bit first.  Same with the taps.  I once learned a lesson about the advantage of high carbon steel drills & taps.  If you break one off, a pin punch & a hammer will shatter the drill/tap and allow you to pick out the pieces and continue with another tool.  You break off carbide/tool steel and you in a heap of trouble boy.  Larry Kelly at Mag Na Port saved my butt once by getting a guy down the road from him to burn out a broken drill bit in a blind hole with EDM.  Mr Kelly is a Prince of a man!

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 15:34:58 (ZULU)

      Speaking of wild pigs, I was up in my hidey hole calling some coyotes last Tuesday before the snow, and lo and behold, here came a herd of pigs shuffling up out of the river at about 300yds. I engaged said swine by taking out the lead. The rest split into two groups, one group headed straight for my position while the other group went south, headed for some wild plum bushes. I got two more of the attacking group before they broke off and headed for said bushes. Since I was up on the hill, I could cover 360 around the bushes. Everytime they tried to sneak out heading south, I would nail one of them and they would jump back into the bushes. They finally broke out south at a dead run and I knocked off tail end charlie before they got gone! Tally, 8 swine down and one miss. Will be having sausage for Christmas!! The  largest sow went 300Lbs and one old boar went 385. Left him for coyote bait. If you make it to Texas sometime, I'll take you pig huntin'.

Rex

Rex Vaughn <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 15:37:27 (ZULU)

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
Overland Park, KS, USA - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 15:47:09 (ZULU)

SPUD-  Unfortunately, the ECWCS parka doesn't have a good way of securing the hood, unlike many civilian styles.  The best things I've found is to tuck the hood down inside the neck opening of the parka, or to roll it, camoflage or rightside out, into a "horse collar".  It is very important to not have the interior of the hood exposed to the weather, as water or melted snow will get down into the parka, and onto you, if you don't get the hood up immediately when precipitation starts to fall.

ON MARINES WITH GREEN VESTS/WEB GEAR- While it is true that the gear will be lightened by dust, certainly the best way to go is to start with the right color.  Unfortunately, it is not possible for large units like the USMC to have gear in every color.  The next best solution would be for the gear to be painted.  I guarantee the Marines have been prohibited from painting their gear and weapons by some idiot with a parade ground mentality.  I hope that such stupidity does not cost lives.  Many people underestimate the value of good camoflage. The way to go is 100% camo.

Semper Fi,

Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
US - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 15:50:38 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info in redrilling/retapping.  My father is a machinist and has access to all the tooling and knowledge necessary, so between the two of us we shouldn't cause too much damage.  Haven't done too much "drillin holes" in my weapons, so wanted to check with the experts first...

No flame intended, WR.  Just stating that the SAW isn't the only tool in the box for the grunts to use over there.  Always appreciate good internet links and sources of information.  You have a point, though, the 249 is much more prevalent in the typical line company than the 240.

On Marines with woodland web gear in the desert, no we are not allowed to paint our issue gear, but we are provided with a desert cammie cover for our alice pack, which is basically a big pillowcase that goes over the pack.  Anyone who's trained in 29 Palms can tell you the sand and dust really does get over everything, and your web gear gets a desert look to it pretty fast.  The Corps simply does not have the money to issue desert cammie packs, flaks, and web gear to every Marine that needs it.

Keep in mind that 100% desert camoflauge does not eliminate the need for situational awareness, noise discipline, trash discipline, tactical maneuver, etc.  Just wearing all desert camoflauge does not make us invincible.  A grunt Marine who is wearing all desert and lights up a cigarette at night out in the open is just as vulnerable as a grunt Marine stuck in the wide open desert wearing all woodland.  We've got to be smart about the situation, no magic cammies are going to save us.  ADAPT, IMPROVISE, OVERCOME.  It's not just something Clint Eastwood said in a movie; it's a jarhead way of life.

Semper Fi

Snider <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
11th MEU, USMC, US of A - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 16:39:52 (ZULU)

Rex, buddy I'll be on the next plane!!!, Sounds like you had a good day,  The problem with the pigs here is that they are almost completely nocturnal, which means staying up all night, its great stalking them with snow on the ground and a little moon light, but the standard way is to bait them with maize, but they know its risky, so unless they are hungry they don't show, which is why a good frost helps the plan.. Im off out after piggies again on wednesday with this forestry guy I met, then back to my usual haunts at the weekend,Regards to all pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 18:38:18 (ZULU)

As I was once told "If its wet and not yours,DON'T TOUCH IT!!!!"

I carry it a step further I wear eye protection and if I have to touch you or your clothes for any reason I wear gloves.

When I clean game animals I also wear gloves. I have a friend who contracted Brucellosis from having a cut on his hand and cleaning a infected hog.  He now gets to see his Infectious Disease Physician twice a week for the next 3 to 6 months, has a semi permanent IV line that he gets antibiotics through. He went misdiagnosed for several unconfortable months.

Protect your self!

Out

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!! - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 21:02:27 (ZULU)

 The Sako TRG-42 in .338 Lapua.

 I can get into one of these NIB with all the accessories and a few extra mags for a real attractive price as compared to retail.

 How does this riffle run? Pros, cons, or whatevers. How does it compare to other weapon systems in this caliber priced similarly?

 Realistically I will only be able to shoot to a grand regularly, and occasionally out to 1600 yds.

 I am sold on the 30Gr boolet thing, and the coolness factor is definitely there, but is it a waste of money? Would I be better off to send the bucks another way to do the Lapua thing?

 Also, what types of optics would I be best off to consider mounting?

Dimensions and weight wont be a factor, as this will probably wind up being a set position piece. Has anyone ever dug a revetment for a Sako?

 I am sort of leaning towards Nightforce, but I may have missed something along the way and be all wet.

 Thanks fellas

 Still lurking and learning

Chuck <Ballsack34@aol.com>
Troy, Ohio, USA - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 23:07:46 (ZULU)

Jim R,

Welcome Aboard!

Now we have someone to keep Brian Sain & Mike Miller in line!

hee-hee!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, - Sunday, December 2, 2001, at 23:51:43 (ZULU)

Mike <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 00:13:45 (ZULU)

WMoore- agree with you on Singleton's courses. Hard to find these days, but well worth it.

Brian- Hey cowboy! Want to try to explain this? How come the medical trainers (ARC in particular) did teach mouth to mouth CPR or maybe a faceshield (maybe still do) but OSHA makes you turn in all your uniform clothing and gear that gets fluids on it into a hazmat bag and pratically burn it in an incinerator?

Talk about sending a mixed message.... I, for one, will err on safety's side on the CPR issue.

OT question- I am getting bombarded by people offering me email credit and loans etc.. As I only post to two boards, one of them must be generating some list for some dirtbags. Anyone else getting them? Besides the west african scam too?

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 00:16:21 (ZULU)

Ned Christiansen <metalmaster@m-guns.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 02:35:12 (ZULU)

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 02:55:13 (ZULU)

 Greetings, just returned recently from hunting expedition and lil bit of vacation. Proud to say i finally got my first buck (had doe's before but no buck) was 4 pt that seemed have a lil problem with lead poisoning. Walked out in a field around dusk (mistake no.1) and stood around for a min. to long while i was considering the ideas of how good of  a rest a day pack makes (for sc field research of course). Mistake 2 rolled in when it was me and my baby (7mag sendero sf..topped with leupy) lay all nice and compfy for the evening. One shot..crack..smack...bambi for dinner, my complements to win. brass hodgon 4831sc and nosler 140bt for their efforts. My partner and i stepped it off to 365 yards, easy shot for most the reg's here but i was pretty proud for just starting to get into this a lil more. Well guys take care stay safe.

Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 03:23:38 (ZULU)

I've racked my brain trying to think if I actually saw this vest  advertised somewhere. Any help would be appreciated.

Noah

Noah Stevenson <tango_09@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 03:46:43 (ZULU)

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 03:46:56 (ZULU)

Mike Dominick <als2358@blackfoot.net>
missoula, Montana, - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 03:57:54 (ZULU)

Had fun BSin' though.  Like one of the gents and I decided, "At least we don't have to dry our rifles out."

Spud,

Out

dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, kalifornicateya, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 04:21:44 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$R4WFFBYAADA0DQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/03/war03.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/03/ixhome.html

Special Forces vs conventional infantry units.  Note the author's respect for grunts.  

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$R4WFFBYAADA0DQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/03/war103.xml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 04:43:35 (ZULU)

I need to pick your collective brains on which stock to use for my Winchester M-70 Magnum project.

Both my tactical bolt guns have McMillan General Purpose(HTG) stocks on them in Dark Woodland Camo. I am wondering what might work best considering recoil of the magnums, handling qualities, comfort, and all around shootability(is that a word?).

Am considering a McMillan Winchester Marksman style like what is on my Stealth, since, after all, this is a Winchester. Other options are the McMillan A2 Tactical or the A4 Tactical. Any of you out there using the A4?

Your thoughts, comments, and experience are solicited...

Jim R...welcome aboard. Hope to meet you one of these days at Blackwater with Norm Jr./Sr.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 11:12:01 (ZULU)

We're having the weirdest weather... we've had 1/2" of rain in the last two months, and it's gonna be 70 on Wednesday (Dec 5th)...WTF???

I think Kevin (OTGWN) is saving it up, and gonna sock it to us :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 12:07:02 (ZULU)

We blow the holes out on Badger bases and Remington receivers all the time.

Some Remington's have holes that are out of alignment, so check it carefuly before drilling.

We use a fixture and put it in a mill and run a mill program to get the holes perfect. This is not absolutly necessary, but when we do this we never have any problems with rail fit or windage offsets.

Badger six out

Marty

Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 12:57:42 (ZULU)

Well dudes.  The range is in high gear.  We are dozing out a 300 meter rifle range and a 50 yard pistol range with turning target system.  I've got a 30'x50' classroom goine th also.  I'll have a website with class and event schedules up by Christmas.  I'll be running pistol, carbine, shotgun and precision rifle courses.  We'll be running a hunter's rifle championship in September.  This should be a lot of fun as we are scheduling bluegrass bands and a craft fair to go along with it.

Well, so much for shooting being fun....

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 13:58:33 (ZULU)

JIMBO:  No flame on the EMT thing.  Emergency Medical Technician is a generic term here for all Paramedics, Fire Rescue, et al. no matter their level of skill training.  It certainly is not a derogatory term HERE in any shape, form or fashion.  Sorry.

Oh, also, now when you started that body fluid thing, you didn't mention anything about Britney and Raquel. THAT changes things !  They've both probably been cocked more times than Davy Crockett's rifle but I think I'd have to take a chance with the CPR and suck face  . . . but, I digress.  

DETACHABLE MAGS.  Remington has discontinued the DBMs.  They suck.  Old news.  Had one and traded it off.  Have heard no complaints with HS Precision.  Only complaint I have "heard" of with AICS is that sometimes the bullet tips will catch on the front of the feed ramp.  Also "heard" that they remedied that problem as well.  I have a brand new AICS still in the box but have yet to use it.  Was going to mount my LTR in it but just haven't yet.  It handles sweet just like it is.

As an aside, from your posts it seems that you have been around some, are knowledgeable and are probably a pretty proficient shot.  I've never seen you shoot.  Question is, where you gonna be going where you need more than four shots from a .308 or bigger ? and ... you can probably get reloaded fast enough just fine with a plain ole floorplate gun, without the feed problems associated with a DBM.  Now, being a gun nut myself, if it's just something you WANT - I say go for it.  But if you plan to bet your scalp on it, I'd stay with the floorplate.

2 cents from a white trash, police sniper.

Stay safe Jim, 'tis the season.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 14:18:49 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 14:23:50 (ZULU)

I don't have solid plans to build a rifle with a DM, I simply don't know what solutions are out there that work and I was curious.  I watched the gentleman who makes the Pod-Loc (Terry Cross <sp?>) shoot a custom DM rifle and was impressed with his results...

When someone grows up shooting and shoots well across many, many years (not me, him)... we'll, I've learned to pay attention to those quiet guys...

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 15:07:52 (ZULU)

  Just catching up on the DR from the weekend. I would add one more thing to the streaching, don't do ballistic streaching until later on and your warmed up well. Like Pete says it can really screw you up. Ballistic streaching is when you reach your limit you "Bounce" or force more out of it than your body is willing to give at the moment.

Chris,

 Congrats on the "FagMag" you won't be sorry!! When you get ready and need data let me know I have it out to 1000+yds for mine and wind tables also.

Wes,

 The A2s a nice stock but a little heavy for my liking but then with a mag it will be a nice feature. I don't care for the A4s because there heavier yet and to many gagets for me.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 16:20:02 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson113001.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 16:57:19 (ZULU)

Given the choice I'd stick with a non detachable mag, reason bieng, 1.its proven to work,

2.its on the rifle so you don't forget it and can't loose it.

Unless you realy have a valid reason why you must have one, the AICS has one, so Ill put up with it,I wouldn't convert my 2 other 700's to detachable mag though. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 17:00:49 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011203-83533032.htm

Justice Dept has the domestic networks off balance.  

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 3, 2001, at 18:21:07 (ZULU)

We should be looking at these rifles for Sniper Applications a little closer.  The trigger doesn't incorporate a overtravel stop and that sucks. It would not be hard to install an overtravel in the trigger guard but I wish Browning would take care of the problem. This standard weight barrel with BOSS is very accurate. I just tried one of the Carbolite barrels in a 22-250. It's fine fine!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 18:22:59 (ZULU)

I heard one guy say here in this forum that he likes them because he likes gadgets and just wanted one. If that's why he wants one, that's valid, but I am not aware of a practical or tactical reason, at least on a LE rifle.

Semper Fi

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 19:28:06 (ZULU)

LeMay OUT

LeMay <M40A1SNIPER@att.net>
MI, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 19:34:10 (ZULU)

Stock for the FagMag, I don't want this 6.5 to go the route of a comp. gun(though that's probably all it'll be used for).  I've been thinking of going with a marksman stock for it, or an A3.  The way I'm looking at it is I won't need a tapered base (unless I'm using a fixed power shotgun scope) so I should be able to keep a good check weld without the need for a saddle or ajustable type cheek piece.  What I'd like to see is a stock with the forarm of the Marksman and the pistol grip of the A2/A3 stocks, but light.  Robar makes one similar for the SR90, but as far as I know they all come with adjustable cheek pieces and are pretty hefty.  Hell, a HTG with a strait comb would probably be ideal.  I've seen the McHales, but they look to be very heavy and maybe a bit cumbersom.  So, does anyone know of a stock that comes close to the above criteria??

Sorry to bring up another stock question today but, if I'm gonna go with a McMillan I need to place my order soon...

Pat,

Thanks for the offer,, I'll take you up on it when she's built.

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 21:48:08 (ZULU)

The point I tried to make a while back was that with Sniper matches still in their infancy I see some courses of fire being introduced that give a competative advantage to the high capacity rifles.  In an effort to be more competative men are building rifles to win these matches while sacrificing some tactical utility.  The parallel I drew was with the evolution of game pistols in IPSC.  The game of "practical" pistol shooting evolved away from practical scenerios and it lead to the development of the kind of equipment you see used today.  I hope that match designers will keep this in mind.  Equipment restrictions (ala IDPA) is not the way to go.  Build practical scenarios and the equipment will remain practical and tactically sound.  Build in too many 10 round rapid fire strings and you'll see match/game rifles fielded to win.  It's as simple as that.

On another note, I'm in Ft.Lauderdale, Florida on business and have a room on the 12th floor of a beach front hotel overlooking the pool.  I wish I'd brought my spotting scope because there are some targets down there that need careful milling. ;-)

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 22:43:43 (ZULU)

Gene Furr <genefurr@cox-internet.com>
Fort Smith, Arkansas, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 23:49:26 (ZULU)

SHOOTIN' DAY IN OREGON! Yes, the clouds parted briefly to allow me to range test some 6.5 X .284 Ammo (results follows) and sight in my .223 Stealth (embarassing story follows)...

Jerry Rice has asked about the burn rate of Western Powder Co.'s Ramshot "Big Boy"(Note: Name has been changed to "Magnum"). The e-mail from Western Powder indicated it was slightly slower than RL-25.

Additionally, he wanted to see what the chronograph data looked like for consistency/extreme spread. Test that today. Results follow...

Test Rifle: Chandler Super Sniper 6.5 X .284 w/26" Hart barrel.

Temperature: 55 F.

Wind: Light/variable

Chronograph set up 10 ft. from the muzzle.

Ammo Tested: Black Hills Ammunition Produced Norma Diamond Line 6.5 X .284 Norma. This uses 61.5 gr. of "Big Boy. The lot tested, Prod. Lot# 1405052086 was the second lot produced with Norma Brass, Big Boy Powder, Sierra 142. gr Match King. Primer is unkown. OAL: 2.298"

Results: Round 1/3019 FPS, 2/2997 FPS, 3/3031 FPS, 4/3029 FPS, 5/3011 FPS, 6/3026 FPS, 7/3029 FPS, 8/3026 FPS, 9/3001 FPS, 10/3046 FPS

Average Volocity: 3,021.5 FPS     Estreme Spread: 49 FPS

Hope this helps you 6.5 X .284 Shooters.

Embarassing moments: When you go to sight in your pet .223 stealth and forget that you had put on a mount that had 20 MOA elevation built into the desing. Damn! Why am I shooting SO HIGH. Took exactly 20 MOA down to drop the bullets in the bull. Truth in advertising!

Chris...on the 6.5 X .284 stock. The A2 is a good way to go...mine has the HTG McMillan in Dark Woodland Camo.

I's stay away from the A4 for now. The Marines are seeing some breakage with the A4 deigns.

Detachable mags. Only on semi-autos. NOT on a bolt gun

Any of you have pet match loads for the .223 I'd love to try them. My load of a Sierra 69 gr. Match HP and 24.6 gr. IMR 4895 has an Extreme Spread. Help needed!

Kind Regards,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Monday, December 3, 2001, at 23:59:10 (ZULU)

regarding the McHale.  I just ordered a McHale stock.  I have exchanged several e-mails with Kelly McMillan about this stock.  I didn't order anything special except for the spacer system.  He said that this stock, the way I ordered it (with sniper fill) would weigh ~3#.  Now, I don't know how much the other stocks weigh (someone else can probably provide this info) but I do know that the HS Precision vertical grip stock is north of 4#.  The reason I chose the McHale is because:

1. It is a "standard looking stock

2. It has a straight comb

3. The palm grip/swell is not as large as those on the A2-4 stocks

I labored over this decision and I am convinced that I made the right one.  I bugged quite a few people in my quest for "my perfect stock."

Thanks to everyone that freely gave their input.

I would be curious to know the weights of some of the stocks you guys have.  If anyone has this info and don't mind sharing it, I would appreciate it.

Ken H.

The check is in the mail.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 00:01:54 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 00:44:21 (ZULU)

26" 112  savage,7mm groups if the shooter has his shit together.Most important thing with this outfit seems to be seating depth.

Detatchable mags,bolt rifle,nah,somethin else to lose or leave at home.

out

G.W

GavanWillis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 01:33:21 (ZULU)

Choppers flying from (I guess) the brand new Marine base outside Kandahar is really cramping the Taliban's style.  The Jarheads move in and there goes the neighborhood.  

They make noise, they pick fights,...Oy!

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$S2L3KRAAAE0HDQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/04/war204.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/04/ixhome.html

I like the mag on the A-bolt.  It looks like it would be relatively easy for one of you mechanically inclined guys to rig up something like that for the Rem or the Win.  

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Hush up, Marines, people are trying to sleep. - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 02:48:25 (ZULU)

Deer season ended Saturday, still no sign of winter..

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 03:24:48 (ZULU)

My last post on the 6.5 X .284 testing gave an overall length of the Black Hills round as: 2.298".

The correct length for the factory round is: 2.98"

Sorry for the confusion.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 03:43:41 (ZULU)

Like a few others have said, if it works-OK. As with anything. Good , bad or otherwise, as in many LE situations, you work with what you get. Sad fact is that we don't always get to choose our tools. One of my guys has a Rem 700 DM & it functions fine. Got two extra factory mags & had to do a minor lip reconfig to ensure proper feed. Up to snuff now.

As for "one more thing to forget",  isn't that what preop checklist, written or mental is for ?  We call it mindset.

Springfield makes nice little 5 round and 10 round mags for the M1A. Not my choice for a working gun, but would do in a pinch.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:45:43 (ZULU)

Thanks

Scott

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 05:40:27 (ZULU)

Doug,I made some mental and written checklists and lost them to:)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 08:06:44 (ZULU)

I painted my Winchester 70HB Varmint with just over the counter Wal-mart camo paint.  That included the scope and bipod.  It came out great.  It is also very durable.  I have crawled throught the bush more than once with it, with little or no scratches at all.  I have also painted several rifles and shotguns for a hunter friend of mine and he reports that it holds up well.  The paint comes in several colors so you came pretty much make up whatever camo pattern you want.  I just started with the lightest color and worked my way through to the darkest and used it to shadow with.  So.....don't be afraid to paint it.  If you would like a more detailed description of how to paint it, just e-mail me.  And the scope warranty was not effected.  I called the Manufacturer to check.

CR <crscls@poncacity.net>
PC, Ok, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 09:58:26 (ZULU)

for target acquisition, end police work .

thanks in advance to you all for your answers.

avi

avi <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 10:09:10 (ZULU)

The A-Bolt is not a bad action to build a rifle on.  My 6.5-06 uses one.  One of the minuses on it's magazine setup is the quality of the magazines.  They are not the greatest and generally require a stronger spring, also they only hold 4-5 rounds.  Reliability is generally good although I have had stove pipes with the short throw bolt on the A-Bolt action.   Moyer makes an after market trigger thats better than the stock Browning.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys heres a link provided by the US Navy to send a Holiday message to any service member.   It's not specific to a particular person but what the hell, even the dish washers and the clerks need a lift during the holidays.

http://AnyServiceMember.Navy.mil/MessageSend.html

De Oppresso Liber..

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 11:21:30 (ZULU)

Worthwhile sitrep with a stupid lead.  Taliban plans to use car bombs against Marines at Kandahar air base.  That's gotta scare the piss out of 'em.  Who writes this stuff?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20011204-177994.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 11:59:57 (ZULU)

Maybe I'm being a bit over cautious. When I paint a scope, I always  place a very narrow sliver of masking tape where the power ring and the AO ring (if equiped) moves on the scope tube. I've always been afraid that if paint got up in there it may eat those sealing o-rings. I know that the guys in Norm Chandlers shop do the same thing when they paint a rifle for a customer.

That was a good deal on that scope. Good luck with it.

Semper Fi,

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 13:23:13 (ZULU)

  I have the A2 on my 6.5x284 in the desert camo. I like it because it feels and handles well and doesn't have crap sticking out to dig into my back when I carry it. This is the only "Broken wrist" stock I have and I do like it but it takes some getting used to over the old classic style of stocks. Over, all I agree with Wes, its just a damn good all around stock.

  I really like the H&S 40x stock but they don't make it in a long action as I recall. Its the best of both worlds.

Detachable Mags..

 Don't like them, the only good one I have seen is H&Ss but my preference is a box mag. Most matches you shoot will make the person load his mags on the line during a speed shoot so there is no real advantage to the high cap mags. If you have a partner and your shooting a bolt gun you can clean the targets before they get the mags loaded for the gas guns or the high cap mag. You shoot he throws the rounds in for you. Fast and effecient.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 13:41:25 (ZULU)

rod hansen <rghansen@sprynet.com>
vienna, va, usa - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 14:09:57 (ZULU)

when we are back on line.

gary

gary kaney <yenak45@mwci.net>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 15:29:03 (ZULU)

Greg <Alexisgregkate@juno.com>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 15:31:15 (ZULU)

I believe having 10 rounds loaded and a quick reload of another 10 could be a GOOD THING in a combat situation.

Many detachable mags cannot be top loaded, some are unreliable, they do make things slightly more complicated and sure, you can lose em'.

Tony, $650 sounds like a REALLY steep price to pay to add one feature... are you printing this money in your basement?

Is there anyone else doing M14 mag conversions?

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 15:39:46 (ZULU)

Man, sometimes things on here really get warmed up!  Mil/LE only training, blood & guts, DM's and gaming.  Want to keep mega-mags out of the tactical rifle games? Limit the rounds to 5 or 6, AND make a mandatory reload (Ala NRA Hi power matches 2X8 or 5X5).  IPSC went "unlimited" and it became a race of $, although I could still outshoot most local gunners with my "stock" Gold-Cup.  

If the timing's right, I'd be in for a 1 or 2 weeks in the mud class.  Used to stalk and stuff in the woods, but have forgotten SO much (10 years in high plains desert, and one's woodland skill degrades).  

For those looking for stocks, try www.robertsoncomposites.com.  I have some friends who have them on long range guns, and a 'smith friend has used them for several projects.  He's in Canada, and last I knew was close to US border and would mail them from US so there's no high international rate.  

Now, some notes from an Army recruiter that have been forwarded...

"So you want to be in the military now?!?! Now I know that the current affairs of our great nation have many of you civilians up in arms and excited to join my military.  Even though your intentions are well, and you might very possibly make it into the service, there are some things that we need to clear up/get straight first before we even consider you.

 1)  Next time  you see someone (an adult) talking during the playing/singing of the National Anthem... kick their ass.

 2) When you witness firsthand someone burning my American Flag in protest... kick their ass.  If you see this on television, as many of us have, you are simply required to have a deep burning suddenly a rise inside of you... then go and kick their ass.  Our Fore-Fathers didn't intend freedom of speech to be the "get out of jail free" card for an act of a traitor.

 3) Regardless of the rank they maintained while they served, pay the highest amount of respect to all Veterans.  If you see anyone doing otherwise, quietly pull them aside and explain how these Veterans fought for the very freedom they bask in every second.  Enlighten them on the many sacrifices these Veterans made to make this Nation great.  Then hold them down while the Veteran kicks their ass.

 4)  If you are not in the military, DO NOT pretend that you are. Wearing battle dress uniforms (BDU's), telling others that you used to be "Special Forces", and collecting GI.Joe memorabilia might have been ok if you were still seven, but now it will only get your ass kicked. (Veterans are exempt from this rule)

 5)  If you witness someone calling an enlisted Marine "Sir", stand back... the Marine will kick their ass.

 6) Next time you come across an Air Force member, do not ask them "Do you fly a jet?".  You are ignorant if you ask this.  A Marine will be called to kick your ass.  (children are exempt)

 7) Rosanne Bar's singing of the National Anthem is not a blooper... it was a disgrace and disrespectful.  Laugh and sooner or later, your ass will be kicked.

 8) Next time Old Glory prances by during a parade, get on your damn feet and pay homage to her and the military member or Veteran lucky enough to carry her.  Your stupid funnel cake will forgive you if you stand for 5 minutes with your hand over your heart.  You might as well be throwing the funnel cake at the flag if you don't stand... of course, either will earn you a severe ass kicking.

 9)  What Jane Fonda did about Vietnam makes her the enemy... hate her or else. (ass will be kicked)

 10) Don't try to discuss politics to a military member.  We might vote as separate parties, but that doesn't mean we don't all bleed the same. We are, simply put, Americans.  Our military Chain of Command, to include our Commander in Chief... the President... (for those who didn't know) is all that we acknowledge.  We have no inside track on what happens inside those big important buildings where all those "representatives" meet. The military member might direct you to Oliver North.  I can see him kicking your ass already.

 11) "Your mama wears combat boots" never made sense to me... stop saying it! If she did, she would most likely kick you in the ass with them!

 12)  Bin Laden and the Taliban are not communists.  So stop saying, "Let's go kill those Kami's!!!"  And stop asking us where he is!!!! Crystal balls are not standard issue in the military.  That reminds me... if you see anyone calling those damn psychic phone numbers, let me know, so I can kick their ass.

 13) Last but not least, whether or not you become a member of my military, support our troops and their families.  Every Thanksgiving and Christmas that you enjoy with family and friends, there are thousands of troops overseas longing for just a taste of homemade pumpkin pie or fresh egg-nog and turkey.  Wanting for just one hug on a Christmas morning from a loved one.  Thank God for our military and the sacrifices they are making every day.  Without them, our country would get its ass kicked.

I took out the authors name.

Take care everyone.  Good Hunting

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 16:22:46 (ZULU)

-

Jim... $650 is in the range of these M14 mag conversions.  My 'smith does one of the best in the country, and he's in that range too.  I asked him why, since the 20 round sticks so far down, you can get not a decent prone position, and he said "People want them, so I build them... I build them, but I don't use them".

The major problem with these conversione is twofold... the mags are NOT standard, so you can't go to the local gunshow, and get ten 20 rounders (@ $40 each???)... each mag has to modified, or the bolt can't pick up the rounds... and the action has to be modified, or it won't accept the modified mags, plus the stoch has to be BUTCHERED because the mag is a tilt back (like the original M14)... so if you ever change your mind, you are SCREWED to the tune of the cost of the action, the cost of the stock, plus the $650 for the conversion... if I take off my socks so I can count on my toes, that's about $1,500 all together... not too smart!!

A much better deal is to get the H-S DM rig... much MUCH less, and it's plug & play... no mods, and much cheaper.  And it has an excellent reputation for reliability.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 16:28:13 (ZULU)

You and I have so many toys to play with, a spare action is trivial.  In fact I have a BDL and an ADL action that could use an M14 conversion just to make them look better.   Let's see a 6.5-300wsm as the next project?

On the M14 coversion a steel trigger guard assembly is installed, NP3 coated, stock is cut and inletted and re-bedded, action is modified for reliable feeding and 2 magazines are converted.   Additional mags are $10 each.   Mags are not interchangeable with an M1A at that point so I guess I'll have to paint them so I don't mix them up.

And I agree with many, it's all a matter of what your preferences are and what your willing to pay for.  Once I change a rifle I normally don't part with it.  So If I want to try something else then I have it made or do without it.  

As far as whether it's a good thing or a bad thing I will have to see.  

Nothing beats consistent practice with what you have.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 17:07:34 (ZULU)

42.0 grains of IMR-4895 is supposedly one of the M118 LR loadings.  Try this.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 17:24:35 (ZULU)

A NEW VIRUS - OR APPEARS TO BE MORE OF AN ANNOYANCE IS ON THE LOOSE:

The message will look like:

" I saw this screeen saver and thought of you"

It will have a file named gone.scr attached.  DO NOT OPEN THE ATTACHMENT....  THE VIRUS SCANNERS DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS ONE YET....

IF YOU OPEN THE ATTACHMENT - IT WILL OPEN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK AND FORWARD A COPY OF ITSELF TO ALL YOUR ADDRESS BOOK ENTRIES....

IF YOU START GETTING MULTIPLE COPIES OF THAT MESSAGE FROM SOMEONE -CALL THEM AND TELL THEM TO DISCONNECT THEIR MACHINE FROM THEIR LOCAL AREA NETWORK - THAT WILL STOP THE PROPAGATION....THEN OF COURSE - GO FROM THERE....

OUT.

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 18:13:33 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 18:14:55 (ZULU)

The M118-LR round uses the 175SMK. not the 168, and it uses a slower powder.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 18:31:17 (ZULU)

Detachable magazines, bipods, aluminum bedding blocks..oh my!  Where is the sniper community going to?  Hell in a hand basket?!  Face it guys, if some people had thier way we would all still be sniping with 3x9 Redfields, wood stocks bedded with Accu-Glass, estimating range with binocular mil scales, etc.  Been there done that...Check it out...its 2001...

By the way. Avoid the M14 mag conversions like an envelope with arabic markings and white powder coming out of it.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 19:20:17 (ZULU)

Is Lake City still contracting to Olin/Winchester for loading?  If so, aren't all loadings done with a ball powder?  I've seen some older M-118 loaded w/ stick powder, but I think all I've got left is a ball powder that (a Win. ballistics engineer I spoke with at work one day said) is "similar to" 748.  I don't remember anymore, but can probably dig out the manual again to find out, but I think it's numbers are 844 or 846.  Of course this is the regular M-118 with the 173 FMJ, not the SMK.  My M-852 is stick- 4895, or canister grade copy thereof.  I like it better than the Fed GM Match, but since I only have a can or two left, the FGM get's used first!

You're a wealth of knowledge.  How far are you from Delaware?  We've got a 600 yd KD range about 30 miles S of Dover.  Supposed to be building a 1K range, but have run into some easment problems.

C'Ya

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 19:26:18 (ZULU)

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/12/04/ret.afghan.attacks/index.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 19:45:02 (ZULU)

You are correct.  I missed the 168 SMK part of the post.  I have several cans of different lots of M-852, both white box and brown box.  If anyone is interested I can tear down some of these and weigh the charges.  Let me know if anyone is interested.

Here is a post that I made on another board regarding the M118-LR.

M118 LR is not a brand new round. Development of this round has been going on for years. There have been 3 companies that managed this contract at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. These are Winchester/Olin, DuPont/IMR powders and currently it is Alliant/ Reloader powders. When Winchester had the contract the powder that was used was a non-canister grade powder with the closest commercial equivalent being W-748. I have some of this M118 LR ammo. I pulled a couple to see what the charge weight was. It was 43.4 grains. So, if you want to duplicate this, put 43.4 grains of 748 into a Lake City case, a standard primer with a 175 SMK with an OAL of 2.80".

I have been told that when DuPont was loading it, it was with 42 grains of non-canister grade 4895. You might try this also with everything else being the same as above.

Now; late last year Alliant Techsystems took over management of the Lake City ammo plant and began producing the M118 LR with their powder. I cannot confirm this, but supposedly the charge is/was 44.3 grains of of Reloader 15. Also I was told that Alliant does not make separate grades of powder so what you can get off the shelf commercially is the same powder that is brought in by train load. Again, I cannot confirm this.

It is my understanding that there has been some re-evaluation of the charge of RL-15. It seems that the 44.3 grain loads are too hot; way above SAMMI specs, since the military does not have to recognize SAMMI guidelines. I believe the most recent loads are being loaded with a lesser charge.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Caison,

Alliant Techsystems is managing the Lake City plant presently.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 20:07:42 (ZULU)

Thanks.  That would explain the Alliant guy at Perry this year talking about the "Army" switching to RE-15 for some loadings.  If I ever get all of my crap put away, maybe I can set up a loading bench and try some RE-15 in .308 and .223.  Don't ever move from a place w/ a 2 car garage (used for storage/workshop) to a place w/ no garage.  I've got two rooms in my basement full of crap I don't have a place to put.  

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 20:21:18 (ZULU)

JUST HIT THE DECK TODAY!  DO NOT OPEN ATTACHMENTS SAYING THEY HAVE A SCREEN SAVER AND JUST THOUGHT OF YOU! IT'S NOT DETECTABLE AS OF THIS WRITING BY NORTON!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 20:33:40 (ZULU)

One need only look at IPSC to see that equipment evolves to “meet the test”.   Compensated barrels combined with high-pressure cartridges, electronic dot sights, skeletonized groin holsters and high capacity magazines now rule the game.  Why, because the courses of fire required these things to win.  The ubiquitous double-tap caused the compensator to evolve.  Large numbers of close range targets called for the dot sight and the high capacity magazine because we all know speed is denominator in the IPSC game.  In the beginning Col. Cooper recognized that the desire to win would push the development of equipment and he endorsed this idea.  What he never imagined was that the courses of fire would become so unrealistic and that the resultant mutations of equipment would go so far astray.  Today no one would recommend a full race IPSC pistol for combat duty.  Aside from equipment the winning tactics in an IPSC match will get you killed in a New York minute if used in combat.  So few would argue that IPSC has gone off the course Col. Cooper had intended.  Because of this fact IDPA has appeared.  In IDPA a valiant effort has been made to return practical pistol shooting to its roots and make it what it was meant to be.  However in the process IDPA has “thrown the baby out with the bathwater”.  IDPA has strict equipment limitations and has stunted the wide open nature of new product development to “meet the test”.

 I propose that the “test”, or the course of fire if you will, be controlled and that equipment be allowed to mutate as the Colonel originally suggested.  So long as the test is practical and realistic the equipment is less likely to loose “tactical utility”.

What does all this have to do with sniping?  Earlier I expressed my misgivings associated with the widespread adoption of high-capacity detachable magazines so that rapid fire extended strings could be won at sniper matches.  Let me go on the record here.  I do not think that large capacity detachable magazines are a bad thing.  My sole concern is that they are gaining popularity among sniper match competitors for the sole purpose of winning matches and that some tactical utility may be sacrificed in the process.  If high volumes of sniper fire are to be expected operationally then the matches should test for that skill and the adoption of high-cap magazines is a good thing.  I just don’t know.  I’m in favor of equipment development for the right reason, to win in combat.  To do otherwise is gamesmanship and I’ll have none of it.

 Those with the future in their hands are the match designers and promoters.  If tactically sound and realistic tests are presented then realistic equipment and tactics will evolve.  But be advised the opposite is also true.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 21:10:58 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 21:29:47 (ZULU)

Dupont hasn't managed the Lake City Plant for a long time, they sold their powder division to a Canadian company, who is not qualified to bid on the Lake City Contract... when they were there, it was the M118... the M118-LR is not that old, and came on line when Winchester had it.

Allient makes non-canister power... ALL of everybody's powder starts out as non-canister, and different lots are mixed (like scotch) to reach a fixed burning speed.  Batches that are blended to meet a specific burning rate, are called "Canister", and given a number that matches those specs.... if you want a burning speed of 85, and you have one batch of 81, and another batch of 87, you mix it accordingly.

All large volume loaders buy non-canister powder, cuz it's SOooo much cheaper, and they then tweek the load for that train load.  Only custom and small loaders use canister powder.

Lake City doesn't use SAAMI... they have their own standards... not just peak pressure (which is 52,000psi copper), but 7.62x51 ammo must produce 12,000 psi (+/- 1,000psi) at 20" from the bolt face... not a consideration with SAAMI, who only specifies peak pressure.

I posted the Lake City ammo specs here about 2 years ago.  Can't find them now (without tons of searching), but I do remember that 10 rounds of M118-LR, must fall into a 10"W x 14"V box at 1,000 yds, or the lot is pulled down.

Allient is good powder, but burns very dirty... it is 5% to 7% polyester (I knew my old summer suit would go to a good cause!).

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 21:35:05 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 21:40:38 (ZULU)

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/gallery/hostile.environment.htm

It no workie!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 21:53:15 (ZULU)

Virus that Bill mentioned has already been mailed to me.

Because I updated my Virus Detection Files this morning, the McAfee software caught it.

For info on this virus, go to:

http://vil.nai.com/vil/virusSummary.asp?virus_k=99272

DON'T OPEN ANY ATTACHMENTS WITH THE EXTENSION "*scr"!!!!!

If you don't have Norton or McAfee virus protection, get it!

And update it religiously!

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 22:02:23 (ZULU)

I can't remember where I got parts of the info.  But, an e-mail from Alliant stated that there was no distinction in the powder that we can buy by the pound and the bulk stuff. Regarding the M118 LR.  I don't know when the first of this was produced but I do know that there was an overlap to the production of the M852.  Further, I know that some of the 852 that I have has what I believe to be IMR-4895 powder.  This being the case, I believe that some of the early M118 LR could have this same powder.  I'm not sure.  Like I said, I cannot remember where I got some of this info.  I will have to try to find it.  I will post anything I can dig up.

Semper Fi

PAul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 22:27:35 (ZULU)

Technically, he was correct.  When a powder company makes a run of a "type", they set the grain size, length, etc, and start pumping it out... the Re15 from one batch to another "looks the same", and technically, it is the same, so he was just reassuring you it was the same stuff, and not some secret kind of "special" powder... (and trying to reassure you so you would buy some!).

But it is technically impossible to make ton after ton of the exact burning rate, no matter how careful you are (just like it is impossible to make Scotch the same, barrel after barrel, year after year!).  The nitrocellose is not the same from batch to batch... the percent of ether/acetone is not the same, the viscosity is not the same - yadda, yadda, yadda...

Ball powder is even worser... look at it, most of the medium and slower ball powders are made up of hundreds of size of balls, some round, some flat... all shaping the ramp burning speed, and burning curve (they are not the same).

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 23:07:54 (ZULU)

Hogs - VIRUS - Youn'z posting late in the evening  are all wet - Yo spotta (me) dun told ya the virus was @ hand.....

Next:  Here's one hell of a story for your reading. This is supposedly from a Recon Marine in A'stan (passed onto me by a reliable source :)

Just outside of Ab Gach, in the northwest panhandle of Afghanistan between Tajikstan and Pakistan.  November 11, 2001

Bizarre,

It’s fucking freezing here.  I’m sitting on hard, cold dirt between rocks and shrubs at the base of the Hindu Kush mountains along the Dar ‘yoi Pomir River watching a hole that leads to a tunnel that leads to a cave.  Stake out, my friend, and no pizza delivery for thousands of miles.  I also glance at the area around my ass every ten to fifteen seconds to avoid another scorpion sting.  I’ve actually given up battling the chiggers and sand fleas, but them goddamn scorpions give a jolt like a cattle prod.  Hurts like a bastard.  The antidote tastes like transmission fluid but God bless the Marine Corps for the five vials of it in my pack.  The one truth the Taliban cannot escape is that, believe it or not, they are human beings, which means they have to eat food and drink water.  That requires couriers and that’s where an old bounty hunter like me comes in handy.  I track the couriers, locate the tunnel entrances and storage facilities, type the info into the handheld, shoot the coordinates up to the satellite link that tells the air commanders where to drop the hardware, we bash some heads for a while, then I track and record the new movement.  It’s all about intelligence.  We haven’t even brought in the snipers yet.  These scurrying rats have no idea what they’re in for.  We are but days away from cutting off supply lines and allowing the eradication to begin.  I dream of bin Laden waking up to find me standing over him with my boot on his throat as I spit a bloody ear into his face and plunge my nickel-plated Bowie knife through his frontal lobe.  But you know me.   I’m a romantic.  I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: This country blows, man.  It’s not even a country.  There are no roads, there’s no infrastructure, there’s no government.  This is an inhospitable, rockpit shithole ruled by eleventh century warring tribes.  There are no jobs here like we know jobs.  Afghanistan offers two ways for a man to support his family:  join the opium trade or join the army.  That’s it.  Those are your options.  Oh, I forgot, you can also live in a refugee camp and eat plum-sweetened, crushed beetle paste and squirt mud like a goose with stomach flu if that’s your idea of a party.  But the smell alone of those “tent cities of the walking dead” is enough to hurl you into the poppy fields to cheerfully scrape bulbs for eighteen hours a day.  And let me tell you something else.  I’ve been living with these Tajiks and Uzbeks and Turkmen and even a couple of Pushtins for over a month and a half now and this much I can say for sure: These guys, all of em, are Huns.  Actual, living Huns.  They LIVE to fight.  It’s what they do.  It’s ALL they do. They have no respect for anything, not for their families or for each other or for themselves.  They claw at one another as a way of life.  They play polo with dead calves and force their five year old sons into human cockfights to defend the family honor.  Huns, roaming packs of savage, heartless beasts who feed on each other’s barbarism.  Goddamn cavemen with AK 47’s.  Then again, maybe I’m just cranky.  I’m freezing my cock off on this stupid fucking hill because my lap warmer is running out of juice and I can’t recharge it until the sun comes up in a few hours.  Oh yeah!  You like to write letters, right?  Do me a favor, Bizarre.  Write a letter to CNN and tell Judy and Bernie and that awful, sneering, pompous Aaron Brown to stop calling the Taliban “smart.”  They are not smart.  I suggest CNN invest in a dictionary because the word they are looking for is “cunning.”  The Taliban are cunning, like jackals and hyenas and wolverines.  They are sneaky and ruthless and, when confronted, cowardly.  They are hateful, malevolent parasites who create nothing and destroy everything else.  Smart.  Pfft.  Yeah, they’re real smart.  They’ve spent their entire lives reading only one book (and not a very good one, as books go) and consider hygiene and indoor plumbing to be products of the devil.  They’re still figuring out how to work a Bic lighter.  Talking to a Taliban warrior about improving his quality of life is like trying to teach an ape how to hold a pen; eventually he just gets frustrated and sticks you in the eye with it.  OK, enough.  Sun’ll be up soon so I have to get back to my hole.  Covering my tracks in the snow takes a lot of practice but I’m getting good at it.  Please tell my fellow Americans to turn off their TV sets and move on with their lives.  The story line you are getting from CNN is utter bullshit and designed not to deliver truth but rather to keep you glued to the screen through the commercials.  We’ve got this one under control.  The worst thing you guys can do right now is sit around analyzing what we’re doing over here because you have no idea what we’re doing and, really, you don’t want to know.  We are your military and we are doing what you sent us here to do.  You wanna help?  Buy some fucking stocks, America.

Saucy Jack

Who all here wishes he was the one that wrote this? :)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 23:32:31 (ZULU)

Lito;' I don't know but it doesn't work for me either and it was a paste. Anyhow it was a picture "Gallery" of a Marine cleaning his M-16 with a caption "Weapons like the M-16 have to be cleaned 2 or 3 times a day to keep from stopping from dust! The guy had it down to the frame with a kit supplied tooth brush cleaner.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 23:47:29 (ZULU)

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 23:58:44 (ZULU)

I saw a similar scene on the TV news, where the guys were strippin' the '16s three times a day... and I look at the pictures of where they are, and I stand with what "Saucy Jack" said... this country is a major "POS"!!!

What the F**K are they fightin' for control over there... that's like killin' people to control "Love Canal"... I mean, gimme a sanity break here... they should be killin' themselves to leave that POS piece of real estate!

-

Scott Chapman... the 175SMK is the way to go...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 00:19:06 (ZULU)

Ken H.,

I do!!!!!

Scott,

175 SMK

'lito

I understand what you are saying about the powder.

Do any of you guys have info on Varget loads for the 168 SMK?  I am looking for a load that will get me close to 2600 fps out of a 26" tube.  Help appreciated.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 00:35:08 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 00:42:49 (ZULU)

Port pressure- Finally got on the DR at home where I can get at the files.  Following loads are for the Garand as issued.

150 gr bullet- 49 gr/IMR 4895, 50 gr/IMR 4064.

168 gr MK- 47 gr/IMR 4895, 48 gr/ IMR 4064.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 00:49:15 (ZULU)

I personally think that, as long as they don't have any evidence that he actually did any fighting or terrorist activities, he oughta just be thoroughly briefed on who we are fighting and why, and let him meet with some of the families of the victims of 9/11, and then just let him go home to his family.  Hopefully he's learned a very hard lesson, and hopefully he'll get some clue after this.  I believe the kid got excited to be "part of something" when he was 16 and converted to Islam, and kinda just found himself "hanging around with the wrong crowd", which was involved in crap he didn't really have enough clue to comprehend.  Of course, I'm kind of a hyprocrite about this because I was actually hoping the NA would kill all the foreign taliban when they had Kunduz surrounded.  The last thing we need is a couple thousand radical Pakistanis to go back to Pakistan and fan the flames of whatever spark of stupidity is running some of the people over there.

There's an online, informal poll on CNN about this, and 85% of the 115000 or so people who had responded so far said YES, he should be tried for treason.  Well they're letting thousands of Afghan rank-and-file Taliban go home, too.  They were just pawns in someone else's game.  Don't use this kid for some kinda political points.  Save the vitriol for OBL and his actual henchmen.  Of course I don't think OBL oughta be tried for anything.  He oughta donate his body to science, providing interesting test data on the terminal performance of the 62 gr. SS109 ammo our boys have loaded up for himl.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 00:50:41 (ZULU)

M118LR:  I just mic'ed some of my cache, and it's 2.805 OAL.  I took a Stoney point to all my platoon's rifles and the new Schneider barrel(gun I got from Q-town in late '98, early '99) took a 175 Sierra MK to 2.880 OAL touch point, and the old Hart barrels(all guns done shortly after Gulf war) were all right about 2.980 OAL TP with 175 Sierras.  Obviously this is going to float a little from lot to lot, but it seems to me that somebody got a new reamer at Q-town.  Shoot just fine, but I know some people will freak out at 0..080-0.0180 jump to the lands.  This might be why some people are having problems with M118LR having pressure signs in civilian rifles.  Although, some of the stuff we were using this past summer was showing flattened primers, out at Lejeune in May.  Don't really worry too much about it, it's not like the brass gets reloaded for combat use.

M249SAW's in A'Stan.  You really think that this is an issue?  The Soviet varient of the SAW is RPD, 7.62x39, with no quick change barrel.  Their SD 43 and PK/PKM are GPMG's in 7.62x54R, but they are compared to M240G's, not M249 SAW's.  You have one(1) M249 SAW per four(4) man fireteam, that's 9 per platoon, 27 per company.  You normally have 6 M240G's as part of your weapons platoon.  The M2's are normally part of weapons company, although sometimes, a few go to H&S, with some of the vehicles.  You can manpack a M2 .50cal, but it will destroy your body.  I carried a receiver a few times, and there is no way to carry it without some sharp thing sticking you.  I'm not ashamed to admit that I scimped on some of the required hump gear when I carried a M2 receiver.  M60E3 was a delight in comparison.  M240G is heavy, and poorly balanced, but do-able.  7.62 is comforting when your actually going to be shooting people, although 5.56 will get it done.  Honestly, it's going to be calling for the Navy fly guys to earn their pay, most of the time.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M    

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 01:02:43 (ZULU)

The URL that did not work was:

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/gallery/hostile.environment.htm

add an L on the end of htm like this:

www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/gallery/hostile.environment.html

and it will get ya where you wana go.

Charles Of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 01:03:40 (ZULU)

I think it's a done deal.  As I recall, you loose your citizenship, if you fight for a foreign country (without USA permission)... especially if the foreign country is at war with the USA... so the the kid has lost his citizenship!  Also, what's this with "excuses" about getting caught up in something.

That's the excuse most chickenshits tell, whether they got busted in Turkey for nose candy ("Honest, I didn't think it was serious, I just wanted to try it ONCE"), or sticking up a 7-11 at 2 AM.

The guy wasn't 14... he was full grown, AND edjamacated.  Let him fall with all of the other mercenaries... and if he lives through it, don't let him back in the USA... EVER!  His parents can go visit him in some sand driven shithole where he earns $100 a year, cleaning out camel stables.

Part of all public punishment, is retribution to the individual, but a larger part, is to show those that follow, what they can expect, if they follow in the same path... what do we want to show future traitors???

Let him stand trial as a foreign mercenary... he was holding an AK-47 (NOT a copy of the Koran) when hey caught him.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 01:13:59 (ZULU)

OH yes, the  crusader kid, gee whiz don't we need some more rich kids to go off and join some more anti American causes. Maybe he can talk to Katie or maybe get a spot on Jane Fonda's show. Why bother when we could raise the body count by one! Am I harsh? Probably so. But it's a bad example to let him come back and make 5 Million off book and movie rights and get all the attention he was after in the first place. Maybe he can get a match on WWF if he gets enough notice. "The Hairy rich brat Vs. the Rock. God your right Lito this country is shit. We can't even do a war right anymore!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 01:26:05 (ZULU)

I think as far as "showing the world" what happens to shitheads like who attack us like on 9/11, well look at WWII, we caught a few of the highest level guys, put them on trial, and let them take a nap at the end of a rope, at least the ones who hadn't already killed themselves by then.

It's a given we're gonna be turning Osama bin Laden into a greasy smudge on the back of some hole in the rock that is Afghanistan.  It's clear we're gonna let all his henchmen and the leadership of the Taliban share OBL's 70 virgins in Paradise.  And we should, too, I'm totally in agreement.

I don't think we gotta resort to greasing every last man who ever called himself Taliban, now matter how lowly.

I don't think this kid was in it for the publicity.  He was in it cuz he thought he believed in Islam, and was excited to be part of something at an age when most kids are still whacking off in front of their Playstations and Nintendos.  I think the bastards sold him a line, and he naively bought it.  The kid does need to get some clue, and if he's done actual crimes apart from being on the wrong side of this thing, then yeah he's got a debt to society he's gotta pay, but if not, whack him around a bit (figuratively speaking) and let him go home.

As far as losing your citizenship goes, I recall reading in my passport once that you could lose your citizenship if you join a "foreign military".  I'm not sure if that has to be an official, honest-to-goodness sign the dotted line enlistment, or if some Taliwhacker throwing him an AK and pointing him at the front lines counts.

One last thing.  We have a lot of Jewish folks who are US citizens who are also reservists in the Israeli army.  That's a fact.  And they didn't lose their US citizenship doing it.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 02:13:01 (ZULU)

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 02:17:56 (ZULU)

As youn'z know - we're in the GET YOUR PAYMENTS IN STAGE. CURRENT STANDING IS:  43 OF 195 TICKETS PAID FOR. IF YOUN'Z HAVEN'T SENT YER TICKET $$ IN - PLEASE DO SO. THANKS TO THOSE THAT HAVE PAID SO FAR.

THANKS ALSO - FOR THE BANDWIDTH TO POST THE STATUSES...

KEN

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 02:28:38 (ZULU)

This is like saying we shoulda killed every German private who ever pumped up the tires of a Kubelwagen during WWII.

*****************************

Not exactly.  It's a question of loyalty - besides being on the wrong side, like the German private, this guy is a turncoat, a traitor.  His willingness to take up arms against his own is troubling and warrants the prevailing attitude displayed here.

I do have another approach, however.  Rather than fretting about what we should do, I suggest that he simply lose his citizenship and be treated like any other Talib - turn him over to the Northern Alliance or Southern Alliance or whatever and forget him.  They'll deal with him in accordance with the system of justice to which he now subscribes.

Blaine Fields <blf@techtrials.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 02:46:44 (ZULU)

Mailed riffle raffle ticket money order yestidy. You should have in hand morrow.

TBD,

On the so-called "kid" that joined the Tallywhackers..... That "kid" was humping an AK which will kill you just as dead as the planes that hit the WTC. He was damn lucky that he lived to end up in prison instead of being host to a Daisy Cutter in his cave. Hang his ass in the court house square and give time for a crowd to gather. In my finest redneck vernacular, "Iffin he wutten wid us, he wuz agin us". Although my feminine side says let him rot in a prison, my hard ass side still remembers 911.

Time for bed, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 02:55:49 (ZULU)

I guess what I don't think should happen is what some people seem to wish for, that is, a public trial (which would turn into a media circus) where this kid is tried for treason over the course of weeks, kinda like the OJ trial or whatever.  I think a lot of folks are thirsty for blood right now, anyone's blood will do as long as they were on the wrong side.  I say get over it, this kid was a small fry.  No, this kid was the plankton eaten by the small fry.  He wasn't jack shit, to the Taliban or to us.  Don't make him into a much bigger deal with a public trial.

Save all the "remember 9/11" for when we find Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar.  They've certainly earned whatever happens to them, and I hope it happens to them sooner rather than later.  Oh well, I just wanted to see what people on this board thought about that kid.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 02:57:10 (ZULU)

Your arguments are all wet.  This kid isn't some German gas station attendent, pumping up tyres in his homeland.

He WAS fighting with the Taliban, who is a sworn enemy of the USA... if he was "stary eyed idealist" he would have had a serious wake up call on 9-11... but he stayed on to carry an AK-47 for them.

Also... you are all wet on the dual citizenship thing with Israel... you don't loose your citizenship if you are a dual citizen of another country.  Many people from many countries have dual citizenships...

You loose it if you join the miitary of another country that is not on the good guy list of the USA.  The USA allowed US citizens to join the Israel IDF in the prior conflicts (they don't need us now!)... The USA allowed american pilots to join the Chinese airforce in the early 40's to fight the Japanese... they were allowed to join the Canadian and English militaries to fight the Germans... with the USA's blessings.

But they weren't allowed the join the Japanese (or German) airforce to fight against us. Those that did, were traitors, and delt with accordingly.

... get your history (and facts) right!

ou feel sorry for the kid, that's your business, but don't distort history to try to prove your case here.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 03:19:37 (ZULU)

Your obviously correct about the American joining British/Canadian/Israeli thing, the point being the countries in question were all "on our side".  My point was simply to contradict by example an assertion someone made in a prior post that the process of him losing his citizenship was automatic, so that he was already not a citizen, case closed.  I just wanted to point out that it's not quite as simple as "join someone else's army, you lose citizenship, no questions asked, case closed".

As to why the kid didn't just hop the next flight home after 9/11, well, I suppose we'll have to just wait and see what he has to say when he's allowed to talk again.  For my part, I'm willing to believe some utter peon in a group of folks already regarded as little more than expendable cannon fodder probably couldn't just raise his hand and say "uh, Mr. bin Laden, sir?  I've changed my mind, can I go home now?"

If the kid comes out and starts saying publicly how he agreed with the 9/11 attacks, America sucks, burns a flag, all that crap, then that changes everything.  If he snaps out of the delusion and says "what the holy hell was I THINKING!?!?!" I say just treat him like they are treating the other low-ranking Taliban; take his gun away and send him back to his village.

Oh well, this is way off topic so I'll just shut up now.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 03:27:31 (ZULU)

...Oh well, this is way off topic so I'll just shut up now....

Maybe a good idea. No flame.

If Tthat little F**kstick were to come to my neighborhood or threaten my family situation, Paul Kersey might come out of retirement.

Off Duty Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 04:24:04 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$S123POQAABA2RQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/05/war05.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/05/ixhome.html

Also smart is the way we're using the Marines near Kandahar.  This business of stacking up corpses of fine young men in front of enemy strong-points went out with zoot-suits.  

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war dying for his country.  The trick is to let the other dumb son-of-a-bitch die for his."________Patton

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 04:38:11 (ZULU)

Nite, nite.

-

And for all those (3) traitors over in the 'Stan... stay there, life will be easier for you there in some shitty mud village, than coming back here, after 9/11

-

CDC

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war dying for his country.  The trick is to let the other dumb son-of-a-bitch die for his."________Patton

Geo Patten, and Jeff Cooper.  Two philosophers that... "say it like it is!" :))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 04:43:05 (ZULU)

Took it out to the range today.  Put the following load through it...

165 gr Sierra hpbt Gamekings

Winchester nickel cases

44gr Varget

Winchester primers

OAL 2.80

Average velocity 2635 fps

Extreme spread 35 fps

At 300 yds, it put 4 rounds through one ragged hole, with a 5th one out 1/2 in.

I was amazed, since it is only an 18" bbl.  Happier'n a puppy with two peckers.....

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 04:54:21 (ZULU)

There is a nice George Gardner built Remington in 6x284 for sale on the Emporium. Not mine. Link as follows, prepare to copy....

http://www.snipercountry.com/forsale/Display_Message.asp?Message=0000000875.txt

Tim

(Jeez, I love this edit feature. I had to use it 3 times on this post alone)

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 05:14:30 (ZULU)

Has anyone had experience with any of these bullets?

1. Hornady Match Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 168 Grain Moly Boat Tail Hollow Point

2. Nosler Ballistic Silvertip Hunting Bullets 30 caliber 168 grains.

3. Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 55 Grain Boat Tail

4. Nosler Ballistic Silvertip Varmint Bullets 22 caliber 55 grain

The 30 cal bullets are for a 308 (M14) and the 22 cal is for a 220 swift.  I am looking for long-range accuracy.  

Any suggestions?

Does the moly coating help?  

Thanks in advance for the help.

Todd <thkoehler@earthlink.net>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 05:24:10 (ZULU)

Last post didn't go through for some reason, so I'll try it again.

I haven't calmed down in the meantime.

John Walker betrayed his country. Pure and simple.

This puke from Marin county chose to fight with a group that would have gleefully detonated a nuke in NYC if they could have gotten their hands on one. He would have gladly killed the sons, daughters, brothers and sisters of many of you reading this, if he had been confronted by our Service personnel in Afghanistan. Shrapnel wounds that he incurred during the prison riot at Mazar-e-Shariff prevented that possibility.

He is a traitor to his country.

The penalty for that is death, as it should be.

I don't care how "idealistic" or "confused" or "low-ranking" he was or is, he's a traitor.

It's simply a choice between being on the side of peace and freedom, or on the side of terrorism and murder. You don't see Israelis strapping pounds of Semtex and nails to their waists and blowing up teenagers in a mall, do you?

Just how hard is this to figure out?

I had a good friend die on Flight 93. I would welcome the opportunity to have Mr. Walker justify his decision to fight for the Taliban to me. All I ask is that I be given sufficient notice so that I could invite other of Linda's friends to participate in the discussion.

Zero tolerance,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 05:34:19 (ZULU)

Scott

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 06:32:44 (ZULU)

Scott had asked about loads for the Sierra 175 MK and plans on using BL-C2. I don't have any experience with that powder, so can't comment on it's suitability for that application. I would think if it was popular we would have heard about it on the list

Commonly used powders, that are currently popular, are: RL-15, IMR-4895 or 4064, Hogdon's Varget(re-pack of Aussie Mulwex 2208), Vihtavouri N140, and others.

Most of the list members, self included, swear by VARGET. My load is: A Sierra 175 MK, 44.0 gr. of Varget, Lapua Brass, and a Federal 210 Match primer(210M). Overall length is 2.800".

This give an honest 2,650 FPS from my 26" barrel.

Pick a powder that bulks out the case, but does not need to be compressed, and you should have good luck. Make it easy and just by a pound of Varget and give it a try. You'll save a lot of work.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 06:47:12 (ZULU)

No doubt the run of the mil Private Abdul in the taliban, is fighting either because he has no choice, of is also bieng fed on the propaganda bull shit, which is why they will be let go to go home, they didn't know any better.

But an American, or a Brit or any Foreign national who decides he needs to fight for a Terrorist Organisation, they are all aware of the facts and they still chose to be a traitor to their own country, they deserve no mercy, they need to be exterminated, just like the fanatics need to be exterminated, because if we don't do the job right now, its our Sons or Grandsons who will have to go over and spill blood to finnish a job we should have finnished( and we should have finnished the job in the Gulf too). If we in the Free world do not get a grip on this world wide terrorism this time around, and that includes them all, IRA,ETA,the lot, then they will keep on comming back to haunt us for generations, like they have been for generations before. enough is enough, its time to kick ass world wide !!

And there is only one sollution to the Paki's from the UK and the Pakis and Chechins,this Amerikan kid and all the rest of the foreigners fighting for the Talliban, and that is a FIRING SQUAD !!!

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 07:27:55 (ZULU)

'Nuff said!

joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
Turlock, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 08:19:24 (ZULU)

Paint:  Use acrylic paint.  There are no petrochemicals to dissolve "O" rings and seals in optics, its harder that a woodpecker crank when cured, and comes off easily with a swipe of lacquer thinner or meth alcohol.  Ken, Painting M16s should pose no problem.  Lube up your points prior to spraying so paint won't adhere to those spots (front/rear takedown, ejection port cover hinge, trigger, hammer and sear pins, etc.)  Tape sights so you don't jam up detent and try to protect trigger.  If it passes the function checks, its good to go.

Californistan sh%thead:  Kill him.  He betrayed his country and was active at a battle where an American CIA operative was killed.  Kill them all.  No one comes out of the caves alive or you'll just have to face them again down the road. Send the world a message.  Fuc& with us and you are done.  Three thousand plus fatalities and a major symbol of America gone, economy in a death-dive.  Don't lose sight of the goal.  Kill them.  Period. AR

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 09:54:13 (ZULU)

Revoke his citizenship, then revoke his birth certificate.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
FL, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 11:03:11 (ZULU)

Easy.  Let 'em finish his education and have him go into politics.  If he plays his cards right he's headed straight for the top.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 12:25:31 (ZULU)

My heart goes out to the families of the the American soldiers who were KIA and wounded this morning.   God Bless..

De Oppresso Liber...

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 12:37:45 (ZULU)

I’ve been a “lurker” for a year and some odd months now and I thought I’d take this opportunity to thank the staff of SC for working so hard to keep this website up and running. Marius you are the man! I’d also like to thank the regular Rosterfarians who’ve unselfishly given their time, knowledge and wisdom. In particular, I like to thank Kent Gooch, Mike Miller, and Scott Powers. These gentlemen have never failed to respond no matter how dumb the question or request. Another of the regulars, Pablito the famous CatShooter, is a walking encyclopedia firearms and ballistic data. CDC keeps us up to date on the latest news. The list of people could go on and on. Suffice to say the resources available on this website are fantastic.

Finally, I like to thank one more person, Mr. Rick Boucher. While maintaining his busy schedule training the latest batch of pup snipers for our country’s defense, Rick always found time to help and encourage me. I am in his debt.

At the risk of sounding sappy, these men and the many others on this Website represent true American spirit and patriotism (and some of you don’t even live here. Heh, heh!). Thank you all.

As for John Walker – The minute he picked up a weapon and pointed it at an American he became culpably negligent for his own death. Hell, I still think Hanoi Jane should be shot for treason.

Detachable mags – I got one on my Armament Technology AT1-C24, Kinda like it. But, then again, I’m pretty much a neophyte when it comes to long-guns.

J.L. Kuhn <james.l.kuhn@usago.ksc.nasa.gov>
merritt island, fl, usa - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 13:04:52 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 13:05:08 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58192-2001Dec4.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 13:20:02 (ZULU)

  I would stay away from BLC-2 its a dirty powder compared to the others. It is "Very" temp. sensitive if you live where it gets cold and then very hot. Go with Varget or the 4064 or 4895 there kindof the standard along with a couple of others.

The Traitor,

  Give him to the NA boys and let them deal with him. He's a big boy now and needs to understand that there are concequences for your actions. He made his choice right or wrong now he must live with it.

FNs new sniper rifle,

  Just read a review on it in Gun Tests and they have nothing but good to say about it. Average accuracy with all ammo was .6 with smallest group .3 and largest .8 This is for 3 shot groups only, not 5 shot groups though, so not much of a test.

Ken,

 Check is in the mail thanks for all your work once again!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 13:50:26 (ZULU)

Payment for the winning raffle ticket went out yesterday..

Initial testing of the of the yardage marked cam from Kenton Industries indicates it will be ok..Shot out to 300yds.,in 50 yd. increments, with it yesterday and it is pretty much on to there.  Went back to 500 and it was on the money there..Must be something to this computer generated ballistics stuff after all.  Further testing needed, but we are encouraged with initial results.

outa here to go to the range for the fourth day in a row....You gotta love this 70 degree December weather. Bet we pay for it later!!!

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 14:17:55 (ZULU)

 Sent the Riffle Raffle money out this morning.

On the John Walker thing.

 Fighting on the side of the enemy sounds like treason to me, pretty cut and dried!

Update on my 338 RUM and 300 grain Sierra MKs.

 Scratch one Alberta moose, two whitetail does and a nice Alberta whitetail buck, I'm really getting to like this rifle.

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 14:50:54 (ZULU)

Has anyone had experience with any of these bullets?

1. Hornady Match Bullets 30 Caliber (308 Diameter) 168 Grain Moly Boat Tail Hollow Point

2. Nosler Ballistic Silvertip Hunting Bullets 30 caliber 168 grains.

3. Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 55 Grain Boat Tail

4. Nosler Ballistic Silvertip Varmint Bullets 22 caliber 55 grain

The 30 cal bullets are for a 308 (M14) and the 22 cal is for a 220 swift.  I am looking for long-range accuracy.  

I am just starting to load for my 308 and 220 and would appreciate any suggestions?

Does the moly coating help?  

Thanks in advance for the help.

Todd Koehler <thkoehler@earthlink.net>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 15:02:34 (ZULU)

Rob01: Did Mark D. ever get in touch with you?

Chuck: Nice groups with your Howa.

"To the Right Of The Line"

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 15:17:58 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 15:20:18 (ZULU)

Recently there was a thread of questions around clipslotting receivers.  I have posted some pictures and basic information on the clipslotting of Remington SA Model 700's on the web.  If you have an interest look at:

http://www.tacticalstocks.com/Clipslotting.htm

Thanks and hope that it helps

John

Tactical Stocks / John Baier <riflestocks@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 15:31:49 (ZULU)

Anyone heard of a guy here on the board using the email address

REMINGTONRAIDER@AOL.COM   ????

Reason I am asking is he emailed me with a very brief note asking questions about a posting I made here on the roster.

Normally I am not paranoid but the guy identified the date and time I posted and also quoted me. The funny part is he wanted to know what it was I was refering to in detail.

Now if I think about it wouldn't he know just by scrolloing back a little? Why would he want to email me and ask the info?

Oh and he did not sign his name nor is it identified in the "from" block in his email.

Again maybe I'm just being paranoid but the hair on the back of my neck kinda standin up on this one.

Who knows.

Semper Primus!

Mark

Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
NY, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 16:26:10 (ZULU)

Holy cow!

On a more pleasant note, I had dinner with Kevin Mussak (Andy's Dad) last night here in Ft. Lauderdale.  Kev was down here on business and I'm not too far from his hotel.

While it wasn't a shoot, it's good to put names and faces together.  It makes future discussions more interesting sometimes.

Hopefully, we'll get together . Lan at Gooch's Alabama shoot next year.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 17:12:33 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011205-7934905.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 18:51:28 (ZULU)

I don't knkow how deep the hides in the caves actually are, but that thing is 4,000 pounds of steel, and can go a very long way underground before detonation.  Even if it can't get to the main hides inside though, I've said before they can hit the upper parts and collapse the entrances.  Anyone ever try to get rid of gophers?  Plug up all but one hole and then pick em off when they come out (or do like my uncle did and pump some gopher gas into the hole and follow it up with a stick of 60% dynamite!).

Thanks for the info, CDC.  The TV news is too boring.

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 19:18:32 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 19:34:07 (ZULU)

Perhaps these events are not related but my ass is hunkerin down!

I just posted about 2 hours ago about the odd email I received and guess what I received immediately afterwards.

YUP The evil email message that has the screen saver virus attachment thing!

No I didn't open it

If you get mail from   "support" and the address is "support@cyberramp.com" you fellers ought to Sh&t can it straight away.

KEN,

Any advice for a PC retard like me?

My symantec is up to snuff but is that sufficient?

Geeze!

Like brother Sain says...."Watch your sixes."

Mark

Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
Watching my six in, NY, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 19:42:42 (ZULU)

for target acquisition, end police work .

thanks in advance to you all for your answers.

avi

avi <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 19:52:24 (ZULU)

Hard to do when you are sweeping a search light around to find your target.

I can recommend a light to find enemies in the dark, I think it was called "The bullet magnet light"!!  While you are searching for the enemy, it attracts all the stray bullets in the area.

It's some kind of ecological, clean environmental thingie!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 20:39:59 (ZULU)

The only lights that I see police snipers using at night are IR filterd lights on Flashlights or Q-beams. They use these to enhance their night vision scopes. You must be extreemly careful when doing this, because if the "badguy" has night vision he will see you BIGTIME.

Even when we don't think he has night vision we try to operate the light remotely. Ya know, let the lieutenant hold the light, He He.

Other than that, I know of no other lights for target ID.

Like Cat said, Bad JUJU      

jim reifinger <ironhawk308@ec.rr.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 20:59:20 (ZULU)

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 21:28:17 (ZULU)

On another subject...

This virus thing is getting out of hand. Good old Norton has quaranteened 3 viruses in the past two days. What the hell do I do with them now? Hold them in their cyber jail or what?

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 21:41:32 (ZULU)

Mike Palma <mjpalma@rcn.com>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 21:50:33 (ZULU)

Mike Palma <mjpalma@rcn.com>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 21:54:37 (ZULU)

I'm all for a ruthless unforgiving band of fighting warriors bent on destruction of the opposition at all cost!

No problemo with that!  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 21:59:55 (ZULU)

Actually I don't use any anti-virus software.  I don't use Microsoft email software, instead I use Eudora, and I don't have any auto-run setups to run anything people send as an attachment.  In addition, I never, ever run anything sent as an attachment unless I am absolutely clear what it is.  I recently ran a virus-detection web-based program on my machine, and it located a half dozen or so virus attachments in my eudora attachments folder, where they'd been collecting dust ever since coming onto my machine over the years.  I'd never run any of them.  I through them all in the trash and emptied it.  I have absolutely no sympathy for viruses, they are traitors to their fellow bits and bytes, and they all deserve to die agonizing, slow and ignominous deaths evaporating into the luminiferous ether.

;-)

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
New Hampshire, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 22:10:15 (ZULU)

Don't know if anyone caught the new email address today, but we have another Space agency employee amoung us!!  Now we got us one from Europe and one from the US of A.  And 'Lito said this long range stuff ain't Rocket science... sheessh.  

(Don't mean to exclude any of you that are actually rocket scientists and don't use a NASA or ESA addy.  Being incognito makes it hard to count ya'll :))),  So what about them self propelled boooollets you're all secretly workin' on..... ;-))

BTW, anybody out there using a McMillan McHale stock with the BDL(Badger, whatever) type bottom metal in it??  If so, does it collect a bunch of S**t in the recess for the drop plate whilst trounching around the woods??  Looks like it poses the risk of filling up with crud, preventing the plate from dropping correctly, but I may be over thinkin' this.  Requesting any comment you care to share...

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 22:28:10 (ZULU)

kernal32.exe and README.MP3.scr

Well crap, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 22:30:38 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 22:57:34 (ZULU)

I'm also getting attachments from:

"Paul Tonks" <_slug.boy@virgin.net>" ... is this "our" slugboy from over seas??  I got three from him, with the subject of "Duty Roster", and when I sent an e-mail asking what they are, I got no answer.

Duh??

I get a lotta e-mails from youz bumz, and I enjoy them, but if you are going to send me an attachment, write a paragraph in the e-mail about what it is, and that you are sending to me "because... (fill in the blank)", otherwise, I dump all the questionable attachments I get these days, and have resorted to doing my e-mail with the Macintosh... HA!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 23:49:34 (ZULU)

"Anyone heard of a guy here on the board using the email address

REMINGTONRAIDER@AOL.COM   ????

Reason I am asking is he emailed me with a very brief note asking questions about a posting I made here on the roster.

Normally I am not paranoid but the guy identified the date and time I posted and also quoted me. The funny part is he wanted to know what it was I was refering to in detail.

Now if I think about it wouldn't he know just by scrolloing back a little? Why would he want to email me and ask the info?"

Mark,

Nothing like a little paranoia ;-).  It's not all that unusual for someone to e-mail direct instead of taking it to the DR.  Just today I e-mailed Markwell re a reference he made to a ballistic cam from Kenton Ind.  Searched the page but did not find any other reference to it.  I've also sent email off line to lito & Pat asking questions.

Just cause you later got a virus mailing doesn't necessarily make a connection tween the two.  Maybe you never heard of REMINGTONRAIDER@AOL.COM cause he just lurks and hasn't posted before.

But then again as my father-in-law always said "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get ya." ;-).

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 00:03:31 (ZULU)

Don you have been great help! lol

I'm with 'lito, if yer sending me stuff I'm dumping it post haste unless you convince me it legit in a quick.

Slinkin back to my hole and keepin a real close eye on youz bummz!

HA!

Mark

Mark <beowulf4_hire@hotmail.com>
Whats that!?, Paranoia!, Not here in >>>>>>? what was that noise? - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 00:22:14 (ZULU)

The underscore _ at the beginning of the sender's address is a sure sign that the attachment is a virus.  This means that the sender DID NOT send it but the virus is using the sender's machine.  The underscore prevents you from replying to confirm the attachment.

Cat

You kill me.  Where can I get one of those bullet magnet lights?  Ha!

D. Wiede <urbantchr@aol.com>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 00:34:40 (ZULU)

 Dude - that _slug.boy.... is a morph of an email address. Ignore it. It's most likely one of the hog's pc infected - where the virus is working it's way thru the address book. You will probably see other morphs of email addresses that look like _your.buddy@somewhere.xxx - just ignore them.

Those running norton antivirus - hit the live update multiple times until it tells you that your updates are up to date.

60 tickets paid for - 135 to go... thanks for being dilligent there hogs.

Semper Fi Hogs.

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 00:38:58 (ZULU)

Yeah yeah, I know - its not very tactical :)

Anyways, when I head back there tomorrow (after I've "cooled off" you understand :/ ) I need to pick out a relatively cheapy scope for it. Preferably something in the sub 50$ range (I don't need another $700 monster like I've got on my 700). They've got a modest selection of Bushnell, Tasco and Leupold. So what's good in the low-end market these days? I'd prefer something that doesn't require a screwdriver to adjust, but maybe I'm dreaming :)   Thanks for the advice!

DaveB <daveb196@home.com>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 00:52:49 (ZULU)

Ken... did you read what D. Wiede said?? Is that true if there is a "_" at the beginning of an e-mail address, it keeps it from being replied to???... if I take the return address, and delete the little "_", can I send the little shit a return mail, with some notes about his mother?? :))

Man, I'm on some list... my normal e-maill address is getting 5 to 10 of these an hour :(((

I gotta go in the back door with a Macintosh, and sneek my mail out to the MAc :((

D. Weide... I think they stopped making the "Bullet magnet lights".

The first ones on the market had a little questionair with it, askin' what the buyer thought of it, once they had used it under combat conditions, but they never got any of the little cards back :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 01:02:40 (ZULU)

I got this today supposedly from our Slug Boy but it ain't him.  Notice the "underline" at the beginning of the address.  Also, the attached file is a "3 section" job which I understand is bad jujus.

Moe

Subj:  Re: Re: 'guys only' open this

Date:  12/5/01 9:44:29 AM Eastern Standard Time

From:    _slug.boy@virgin.net (Paul Tonks)

To:    Mjmensale@aol.com

File: FUN.MP3.pif (29020 bytes) DL Time (30666 bps): < 1 minute

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 01:29:01 (ZULU)

"doc" king,  good to see you around again..

Fatboy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 01:35:59 (ZULU)

Well - here's an idea - if weall just post our emails on the duty roster - with the addresse's name on it. Then when the addressee reads the roster - they will get their message.

Your email viruses won't hurt the duty roster...

And as a plus -all your roster friends can provide insight into your email conversation.  Kinda like Crocodile Dundee said several years ago - "Tell the bartender what your concerns are, the bartender tells everyone else - hey - no longer a problem"  

:))

Outa Here..

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 01:43:52 (ZULU)

George Out    

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, U.S.A. - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 02:52:25 (ZULU)

I just received your latest work of .308 art! As always, thanks for the attention to detail and quick turn around. I can't wait to start breaking it in on Friday.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
Waiting for a GA crafted McBros .50!, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 02:56:57 (ZULU)

The "Evil" Wes strikes! Sent a present to Steve Nelson, Secretary of the American Custom Guncrafters Guild(ACGG). He's also one hell of a custom gunsmith...doing mostly high grade work. Steve is my hunting partner and a mentor on my stockmaking efforts. Great Guy!

He had been admiring my 6.5 X .284, so for Xmas I gave him a box of ammo and a set of 6.5 X .284 dies.

His comment..."now I'll HAVE to build one of these"! Honest, guys, the devil made me do it!

Just for giggles I made a 6.5 X .284 dummy round with the bullet seated to an OAL of 2.800 this evening. Talk about deep seating...it will work but you've got about 2/3 of the bullet in the case. Yech. Stick with 2.98" of a bit longer and long actions...

All for now...just in a "mood".

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 03:02:43 (ZULU)

If you re read what lito posted, he said if it has an attachment you better explain well what it is.  Did the first guy, REMINGTONRAIDER@AOL.COM, send you an attachment or did he just ask questions?  That's the difference.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 03:59:17 (ZULU)

Enough with the "Not his fault" BS.  Every cop that reads this sight hears the same excuse from every low-life they encounter.  "It's not my fault, man."  "I didn't know it was like that."  "I didn't mean for it to happen."

The "kid" is dirt.  He made his decision, let him burn with it.  Too many people can't take resposibility for what they do.  Another reason why the country is having problems.  It's his fault, he wasn't duped.  The most sickening thing I've heard was his pathetic spoiling father hining about his 20 year old "boy."  (His words, not mine).  Last time I checked, majority was 18.

Rant mode off.  Lurk mode re-engaged.

Steve Burris

Steve Burris <skylar.burris@gte.net>
seattle, wa, US OF A - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 04:58:34 (ZULU)

What Pab and others are describing is BadTrans.  The 'little shit' that sent it to you probably doesnt even know he did so. The virus writes an underline before his email so replies will not tip off the victim who is now turned into a disseminator.

http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b@mm.html

has a damn good writeup on it.

Also be aware that this thing hits OUTLOOK users the hardest. If you have Eudora or another you are likely to have the virus stop with you. I ABSOLUTELY concur with Ken that Norton AV is tTHE way to go. 10 times more intuitive for updates than my experience with mcCaffee.. just my opinion tho.

I update my virus deffinitions 2 times per day.

This virus goes in to the addressbooks and inboxes etc of its victim and sends all those folks messages. IN ADDITION I have heard it reported that it CAN go into cached web pages IE: If you read SniperCountry and get this bug it can go to your temporary internet files and harvest a nice clutch of email addresses from that.

So the worst crime this guy has comitted was to read the ramblings of the folks here... probably.  I doubt he is person-zero on this one :-)

In any case look over the writeup here: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b@mm.html

its interesting...

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 05:49:54 (ZULU)

QUESTION:

I have a .45 that I like alot and would like to know your thoughts on a good personal defense round.  Are the tactical low penetration rounds good?  What about Federal's Hydra shok?  Plain old Lead Semi wadcutter?

Hopefully nobody here will have to get tha close, but what do you want outgoing?

Matt <mattr@ocslink.com>
USA!!!!! - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 06:04:05 (ZULU)

How about the part where he had to ask his parents for money so he could join the Taliban?  It's like, "Hey dad, can you give me a few thousand to pay for my jihad?"

Treason is treason.  He made his choice, and he should pay for it.

Al

Alan Wong <usmc308@hotmail.com>
S.F., CA, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 06:14:11 (ZULU)

hahahahaha Well for proof that you could kick my ass totally just ask Mike Miller. He is the sole person on this site who has been able to witness the HUMOR of my shooting. I suck. I stil need to learn how to mil things and dial things in for distance.  In short I suck. :-) [I can hear the collective laughter from here from this audience! Hey I'm a handgun guy and a geek that can't do math what can I say?]

> I noticed the L was gone after I had already

> made an ass of myself but hoped nobody else would notice.

Well Pablito seemed to wana go to the place you posted and in all honesty I was tryin to help him out. I surely would not consider you an 'ass' for making a typo.  I wont mention the edit feature that marius, Ken, et al made into this new duty roster for times like these. Idont want ya wrongly feeling like an ass a second time.

Your posts are always interesitng.

> Anyway thanks, you meant well and it's the thought that counts.

> These guys like Charlie make me so humble!

Naw.. I have just made the same mistakes before. Been on the net since it was ARPANet so had time to cover my tracks :-)

Amused :-)

Charles Of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 06:54:08 (ZULU)

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 07:07:16 (ZULU)

J.L.Kuhn, buddy are you n me in the same line of work?

CDC, a Rocket Scientist is a guy who can set light to his farts without burning his ass !!

The guy who wanted the advice on good flashlight, you guys misunder stood,he didn't want to illuminate his target, I'm sure what he wanted to know was, whats a good reliable robust flash light, for reading maps(with poncho over head) and for illuminating all sorts of things, tactically.ie without giving your position away.

I suggest a mini mag lite with red filter, Ive  had one for 15 years now and it has never let me down once.

Mike Palma, Hensold is part of the Zeiss group. Zeiss-Hensold AG.

I was out piggie huntin' last night, about 22.30 a group of about 12 piggies appeared  30m in front of my stand, I shot one and the group split into two and made a run for it, half passing me to the left the others to the right, managed to shoot another one at about 70m. The second one dropped in his tracks. Upon inspection of the area where they had been standing at the first shot, I found dark blood, and chunks of lung, indicating a liver/lung shot.Decided to let the pig in peace until Forester man appeared to pick me up.

I was out with this Forest Service guy, he decided we didn't need to take our dogs out with us, which has got to be the worst idea since Abe Lincoln said to his wife " My Dear, I think I would like to go to the theatre tonight", So my sniper/tracker spaniel, Meg, is sat at foresters house in the back of my jeep, and Im on hands and knees blood trailing wounded pigs (tail not wagging)through the woods. The blood trail was good for about 350m I still can't believe the pig went that far, then it dried up. What was I always preaching about get a dog !!, well if you get one, make sure you take it with you !! Any way, by 01.00 hrs, forester has had enough, and realises we need a dog(which I suggested as soon as he arrived on the scene. But wants to carry on the search in day light, damn, Ive got to work at 06.45hrs, so now I have got to get back to the woods asap, get on this cold trail and find this pig.Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 08:44:53 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64670-2001Dec5.html

Some thoughts on the war's next phase.  Take it with the customary grain.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58392-2001Dec4.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 12:48:32 (ZULU)

Anyway thanks for the heads up! You're right, I should have thought about the edit thing! Some days are diamonds and somedays I just don't think at all.  Comes on with the detererations of age I guess.

What we need is a magic bullet for these virus freaks! Locate em and clean their hard drive or some such thing! Send em one of those bullet lights!  Then we could overload their mailbox with incoming or something to that affect.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 13:28:10 (ZULU)

Rocket scientist? Not quite, just a humble aerospace worker here at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida who also enjoys shooting. I've been involved with the Manned Space Program for the last 22-years, my current assignment is Project Lead for Voice Systems. If it's audio my group designs, monitors, and maintains it. Launching Space Shuttles is without a doubt the second best thing I know to do - followed closely by shooting of course.

Thanks for the welcome.

Jim

J.L. Kuhn <james.l.kuhn@usago.ksc.nasa.gov>
merritt island, fl, usa - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 13:42:23 (ZULU)

Matt, On proper 45 cal defense round. Truth is there really aren't many bad ones. I like Speer gold dots. But the simple fact is if you get a premium bullet from a major manufacturer you will get good results. So, my advise is try to find the most accurate one for your pistol. I prefer 230 gr bullets to the 185 gr ones. The 230's give a slower but heavier felt recoil were as the 185 give a quicker sharper recoil impuse. Since I am slow I prefer the heavy slow one. :) Also the bigger the better applies here as well. Here is the most important thing, NEVER USE RELOADS FOR DEFENSE, an attorney will have you pennyless in short order if you do. Cops don't care what you shoot them with, or how many times with in reason. Safe rule of thumb is when he hits the ground stop shooting. I recommend two quick shots. You only need justify the first shot. When practicing shoot mostly double taps at ranges of 5 to 20 feet. Just some thoughts. Read Massad Ayoobs books for further good info on what to do as well as what not to do.

Later,

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 15:06:36 (ZULU)

I haven't heard from Mark yet. He might be busy. I know I have and haven't been able to call the SAPD SWAT number yet to see if he's around. I will try to soon. Thanks for all your help in trying to get me in contact with him.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 15:07:44 (ZULU)

You are as a good a man as I have ever met.  You get some time and I will make you into a sniper!  Right now you spend all your time working with comp. dummies like me. Fixing all our screw ups from being comp dumm.

George have fun.

Hogs, found out yesterday I have a slipped vertabre and more tests are ordered to determine my disk status.  May be teaching full time and no more cop work.  Stress is high!

Take care all

Undude

MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Ca, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 15:54:36 (ZULU)

 Take care hope all comes out OK for you. Avoid surgery at all costs, if you can, it should be a last resort only.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 16:05:54 (ZULU)

Quick question that I'm sure some of you have knowledge of already.   Is it possible to fit a Remington M700 ADL LA into a M700 BDL LA stock?  Other than a blind mag. well, are there other differences?  Reason is because I have a line on a M700 BDL LA sendero stock for good price and would like to replace the flimsy synthetic stock that came with this rifle.  Would further inletting be difficult?  If you have done any of this or have any knowledge of how this is best accomplished, I'd appreciate it.

As for the kid,  I personally say let him burn in Napalm!  Then dump him in a big ol' barrel of salt, to cure the wound of course.  He's an adult, he'll pay the adult repurcutions!

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, US - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 16:24:38 (ZULU)

You'll need the bottom metal (trigger guard/floorplate) to make the switch work.  Other than that it's as drop in as you want to make it.

Check the roster and elswhere on the site, there's a couple of companies that make STEEL versions as opposed to the Aluminum from Rem.  Sometimes you can find them available in the Emporium- just act fast!

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 17:09:04 (ZULU)

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 17:12:54 (ZULU)

Hi Guys,

Finally got round to weighing all 300 Federal GM cases for the 300WM. All cases were trimmed to length, neck turned, primer pockets uniformed and flash-holes deburred.

The extreme spread was 5.7gr with the heaviest at 251.8gr and the lightest 246.1gr.  However, with the exclusion of 6 cases the whole lot falls within 4gr (+/-2gr) ranging from 247-251gr and the majority of those being within 2gr (+/-1gr) between 248-250gr.  I know there was much discussion recently about brass, but I can't remember what was considered as a consistant lot.  PLease feel free to comment.

On barrels, does anyone have any comments or experience regarding Hart barrels and how they compare to Krieger?  And cryo for match grade barrels, is it worth it or not? I'm sure the cryo has come up before (not including the ice breaking experiments), but I need a swift answer as it is time to make a decision on what barrel to get.

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 18:32:09 (ZULU)

E-LINE: Opening W32Goner will infect machine

>

>There is a new PC worm tearing through the Internet today called

>W32.Goner.A. This worm works on PCs running Windows.

>

>Do not open any e-mail messages that come with a subject line of

>"Hi." The text of the message reads

>"How are you? When I saw this screen saver, I immediately thought

>about you. I am in a hurry, I promise you will love it. "

>

>The attached file is called goner.scr.

>

>If you click on the attached file, your machine will be infected. If

>your machine becomes infected, contact your Information Systems

>Security Officer (ISSO) or your Organizational Information Systems

>Security Officer (OISSO) immediately for help in disinfecting your

>machine.

>

>Anyone who receives a message like this should destroy it

>immediately. Put it in the Eudora trash and empty the trash. This

>will probably not affect Mac users, but to be on the safe side,

>delete any messages as noted in the warning above.

>

Make sure your virus definitions are updated.  If you do get suspicious E-mail run a system scan with your virus software.  Then run scan disk (choose Thorough, and automatically fix errors).  It wouldn’t hurt to erase all of you cookies and cache files on your system.

Todd <thkoehler@earthlink.net>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 18:39:27 (ZULU)

I like the Kreiger's. They are a bit more spendy, but I think they're worth it. They are cryoed. They seem to last longer too. I dont know if the cryo plays a big part or not. Kreiger uses cut-rifling procedure, while most others are button-rifled. I got two M1A's with the Kreigers. One of em has 4,000 rounds on it, and is barely to a 1 on the throat-gauge. It should be good to at least a 5. The wear will speed up some now that it has hit the first mark. I had a Wilson the last time. It lasted until 3200 rounds then went bye-bye, but it came with one of those silly long throats that only a trial lawyer could love.

Hey, 'Lito? Can you help this guy out? I never had a Hart, and thought maybe you had one before.

Jon,

Probably either one are okay. Who is doing the building of the rifle? That will probably determine if it is a shooter or not. Let us know how it works out.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Out Back, KY, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 19:48:48 (ZULU)

Marius <stokespump@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 19:53:18 (ZULU)

Sorry to hear about the back problems. My wife had a herniated disc a couple years ago. She was pretty much bed-ridden with it. She went to a chiropractor, and he sent her to neurologist for an MRI. She had some treatments for about 4 months, and took Knox gelatin to help heal the soft tissue damage. Bottom line was no surgery, and she is about 100% now. Very active. She has a degenerative condition in that last disc on the bottom of the spine, but still is doing very good.

I know you aint gonna let em push surgery off on ya without researching any alternatives.

Best wishes for good news, and a complete recovery!

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Out Back, KY, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 20:01:43 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 20:36:22 (ZULU)

You can't go wrong with any of the better barrels.  I love Schneider's, Shilen's, and Krieger's... I would get a Krieger before I got a Hart... but that is an "angles on the head of a pin thing"... they are both top notch.  Also, like DC8 said... it's more in the builder, than in the barrel ("IF" - it is a top notch barrel)... see if you can get the barrel maker to chamber and fit it to the action, instead of the local plumber.

Steve... I heard that the issue of using handloads for self defence has changed around, and it's not the NO-NO it was 15 years ago (when Mas wrote his book).. a good friend, who is a gun lawer, said as long as you haven't loaded up something that would e called "more distructive" like a hollow point filled with nitroglycerine (Hmmm), then your stuff is the same as commercial.  You can say "The store bought boolets weren't as reliable!"

Today, I heard that the American "kid" in the 'stan, is now an "ex" American kid... seems as the little jerk "renounced" his US citizenship (HA!), so he get's none of the protections of the constitution... the littel creep!  I can see him sitting in that cell, thinking "Hmmm, maybe this wasn't such a hot idea after all!  How can my daddy get me out of this?"

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 21:05:06 (ZULU)

http://www.msnbc.com/news/668588.asp

Blaine Fields <blf@techtrials.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 21:06:51 (ZULU)

Any doubt in anyone's mind that the little SOB, traitor assed, ex-US Citizen, lowlife, scum sucking, lower than a snake's belly in a wagon wheel rut, Taliwhacker joining Johnny Walker shouldn't be hung by his balls and eaten by a million fire ants would be eliminated by that saddening scene.

Time for another tissue, Bolt out :(

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 21:40:51 (ZULU)

I personally have fewer feelings of hate towards him as just thinking how stupid this kid is.  Stupid, stupid, stooooooooooooopid.  Stupid (IMHO) to convert to Islam, stupid to join the Taliban, stupid to turn down the offer of Mr. Spann and Dave the CIA guys who wanted to get his ass out of the prison before the riot, and he wouldn't even talk to them.

He joined the Taliban before the al Qaeda folks attacked on 9/11, and I'm sure Johnny didn't know anything about it.  In order for him to have my sympathy he would have had to have decided he was appalled by that attack and against it, and tried to get of the Taliban at the first opportunity.  Dissing the CIA and re-joining his Taliban brothers in the prison tells me a lot I didn't know a couple days ago.  It tells me that even after the attacks of 9/11 he had cast his lot with the Taliban, and hence is, IMHO, a traitor, and will deserve whatever fate he gets.  You will all know that I wasn't so sure of this a couple days ago, when I was willing to give him a little bit of benefit of doubt, but the story someone posted here that he was given a chance to "come over to the light side of the Force" by the CIA guys and wouldn't even talk to them has convinced me otherwise.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
New Hampshire, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 22:05:36 (ZULU)

Stop being so "PC" and gentlemanly...  tell us how you REALLY feel about little Jonny Walker... ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 22:08:49 (ZULU)

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011206/wl/afghan_kandahar_handover_8.html

After some Johnny Cochran shyster is through with him, this Walker dirt-bag is perfect for a fat book deal and a Barbara Walters interview.  He'll be the biggest thing to hit town since Loraine Bobbitt or that bleach-blonde hose-bag who wanted to marry a millionaire.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 22:25:08 (ZULU)

Regarding this jacka$$ Walker; they need to strap him up and whack his a$$ like they did the guy, Michael Faye, that spray painted the car in Singapore in the early '90s.  He needs one of these a week until they try him for Treason and hang his sorry a$$.  I don't even think they should bother.  They should just give him to the Northern Alliance like the rest of the foreign taliban.  They'll fix him.

Dave B,

Let me know how you like the Savage Mk II LV.  I have been thinking of picking up one of those.  The scope that I have decided on if I do get one is the Tasco 2.5-10x42 with mildots.  I think these are about $75.

To the gent that was looking for info on the Hensoldt,

I have some information on the 10x42.  Let me know what model you have and whether or not it has a cam and I will dig up my info.

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 22:42:01 (ZULU)

I don't get on here very often, but I do know snipers are sometimes faced with calling in air strikes.  I know Marine scout/snipers get Call for Fire training.  I know nothing about the Special Forces training.  I was wondering if someone could give me the answer to the following questions:

1)  Why is the Special Forces using B-52s for Close-Air support? Do Special Forces even practise true Close-Air? Where were the F/A 18s?

Is it because the 52s operate in the stratosphere where no triple A can reach? Is the Taliban that credible?  

2)  Why did they call in a 2000 lb bomb Danger Close?  ( For 2000 pounders, danger-close is around 4000 ft I don't think the coordinate were off that far).  Unless the Taliban had massed for a final assault, this seems a little knee-jerk and over-kill ( Pardon the pun).  

3)  Why was a door-kicker calling in the strikes instead of a trained FAC? DO the Special Forces even have FACs? If so, are their FACs experienced pilots?

4)  Who forgot Murphy in this one?  There is NO such thing as a smart bomb. What fire protocol was followed?  Did ANYONE double check the coordinates on the ground or in the B52 or is the Army of One too reliant on the computer system? Was this a planned fire mission?  

I understand the deaths/injuries are blamed on human error and/or guidance failure, but there are some glaring oh-shits here.  I'm  sure glad I'm not the one who has to look the Soldier's wives, children and parents in the eye to break this news.  Remember this is the SECOND incident.  The one that happened in the North about a week or so ago injured about 20.  

Any comments would be appreciated.

Ken's wife ( The Major, USMC)

kim hunter <kim@hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 22:45:46 (ZULU)

 I hope everything works out for the best, back problems SUCK! I'm sure we'll all keep you in our prayers. :-)

Boltser,

I didn't know you were so kind to traitors. Feed him into a large industrial meat grinder thats just processed a hog. ;-)

Chaoski!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 22:46:09 (ZULU)

Thanks for any advice!

William McCanna <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 23:22:09 (ZULU)

Thanks

PS who else here is from WY?  I'm looking for a good long range area to shoot.

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 23:24:32 (ZULU)

What chances would you give little Johnny Walker Scumbag if he went for a walk in Downtown Manhattan after Scumbag J. Cochran get him off scott-free? In fact, where in the USA could he go besides Berkley CA?

What gets me is, his old daddy funded his trip to the 'stan? What the hell kind of dad is he anyway? What a freekin' moron!

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Out Back, KY, USA - Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 23:27:14 (ZULU)

Speaking of stupidity, State will probably deal with this.  

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 00:10:42 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$UVZZAQQAAELOZQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/07/wbora07.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/07/ixhome.html

Taliban falls but Al Qaeda remains.  I've read a couple of books by this guy.  He talks sense.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;$sessionid$UV3ZLZQAAELTTQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/opinion/2001/12/07/do0701.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/07/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 00:59:58 (ZULU)

Firstly, the governments of origin do not necessarily *like* these Taliban and al Qaeda scumbags.

Take, for instance, His Assholeness Osama bin Laden.  He was stripped of his Saudi citizenship, and is basically persona non grata in Saudi Arabia.  He gets handed over to them, I don't count his chances that high.

Ayman al Zawahiri, one of Osama's right-hand men, comes from Egypt.  The Egyptian government basically annihilated his first group, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, which is why he had to unass Egypt and basically end up helping found al Qaeda in the Sudan with our boy Yo Mama been Layin, finally ending up in Afghanistan.  He gets handed over to the Egyptians, I don't count his chances too high neither.

The Chechens in the Taliban.  They get handed over to the Russians, well, I think we can all guess what their chances are.  Ditto the Chinese Taliban and al Qaeda (yes, there are some Chinese in there).

Most of the Gulf states have maybe paid some money to some groups that funded al Qaeda in stuff behind the scenes, but that was more or less "protection money" to keep them off their asses (and on, unfortunately, ours), but none of them like al Qaeda.  Face it, al Qaeda wants to make the whole world a strict Islamic paradise, where in that plan does King Fahd fit in?  Answer: he doesn't.  For all the rules and crap the Saudis and other governments over there have, influenced by Islam, they are basically secular states (secular as in the government is run by folks who aren't the government because of religion, but rather because of other things, like being the firstborn son of the previous King), and King Fahd doesn't want the Mullahs kicking his ass off his throne anymore than we want them flyin' planes into our buildings.  I predict the Saudis will behave far differently towards al Qaeda and its ilk than they have in the past.  The excrement has made contact with the atmospheric impellers, and they gotta know that.

About the only foreign Taliban and al Qaeda that might stand a chance are the Pakistanis, and that's only cuz their government helped create the Taliban in the first place, and is ridden with officers and such sympathetic to the cause.

And, as far as clemency for their nationals goes, remember, have these places they chop your hands off in public for stealing.  Remember that plot some Iraqis had in Kuwait to assassinate Pres. Bush Sr. when we went over for the after-war party?  The Kuwaities chopped those guys' heads off in public with a several hundred year old sword, and gave it to Bush as a gift.  I hope they had the decency to wipe the blood off first.  ;-)  The Saudi Arabians execute folks for running dope.  Clemency is not exactly a word in the Arabic dictionary over there.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 01:13:51 (ZULU)

Let's not jump to conclusions on the CAS.

Special Forces DO train for CAS.  Unfortunately, the Air Force union  emplaced a peacetime policy over ten years ago that the only ones who will control the dropping of live ordnance from an Air Force fast-mover aircraft is a Combat Controller or Tactical Air Control Party (TACP).  In peacetime SF can only practice ECAS (Emergency CAS).  Remember the CCT who "Cleared Hot" the F/A-18 in Kuwait earlier this year?  

That's why I love Marines.  "I'm a rifleman on pilot status."

Why was the B-52 used?  Maybe it was the only aircraft in the area (nothing can loiter forever, especially if it comes off the boat and has to go back to the boat).  Maybe it was a pre-planned on the Air Tasking Order and they heard a request for ECAS.  I don't know.

You are right on Danger Close for large ordnance (I believe it's AT LEAST 1,000 yards, under protection, for 750 pounders).

Door-kickers calling and controlling CAS?  What, every infantry platoon commander has to be a pilot now?

True close air?  Like empty 7.62 brass and links bouncing off the top of your Kevlar "Dome of Obedience"?

It takes as little as a tail fin getting bent as ordnance drops off the rail to make it uncontrollable.  Nothing mechanical is infallible, and nothing input by humans is error-free.

In war soldiers die.  It's worse if it's a preventable blue-on-blue.

Army (CGSC) studies say in ANY campaign the friendly fire casualty rate will be around 15%.  That's the more tragic.

May they rest in peace.  I wish the best to their families and mates.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville,, NC, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 01:20:26 (ZULU)

As for the making time... sigh - they got me pulling half a grave shift again +mine. Someday a real job outside of calif.. I can dream

Bill Rogers: As for the 'virus freaks' - wiping their HD aint good enough. Wonder if Islam allows for chopping off their hands for this crap?  Make em like steven Hawking and type their viral code with stubs.

Speaking of Islam...

Just read about our boy Walker. (We had another famous 'Walker' f**k with this country once... a spy.) Refer to this story titled: He's Really A Good Boy" : http://www.msnbc.com/news/666792.asp

The picture of him there in my opinion shows a typical STUPID teenage PUNK.

I'll snip some quotes I found particularly interesting:

"It was “The Autobiography of Malcolm X” that changed John Walker’s life. After reading the book in 1997 for a high school assignment,Walker, then 16, told his parents thathe planned to convert to Islam."

...Never DID have any use for Malcom X.  Always thought forcing us to read it in High School was tantamount to enciting future riots. Now this white-boy wannabe decides to make his mark cause of the California Curriculum... nuff said

"in time, both his father, a strict Irish-Catholic and his mother, a Buddhist, came to support their son’s new faith."

GAWD! No wonder this kids messed in the head. How MIXED a message can parents send? There seems to be a message of "There IS no ABSOLUTE truth". They apparently supported his taking on a third religion ignoring the precepts of their own in order to support the "If it seems good to you do it" mentality.

"Walker was named John in honor of former Beatle John Lennon, who had been murdered a few months before his birth."

See a pattern? The 60's mentality and philosophy of parenthood? John Lennon as some sort of hero to be idolized?

"His mother also cannot fathom the idea of her son as a militant. “If he got involved with the Taliban he must have been brainwashed,” she told NEWSWEEK. ...]“He was isolated. He didn’t know a soul in Pakistan. When you’re young and impressionable, it’s easy to be led by charismatic people.”

[...]

"And Marilyn Walker still can’t picture her “shy kid” in the midst of a bloody prison uprising. “This is a kid who would freeze [from fear]” she says. “He’s totally not streetwise.”

I wonder if she raised him making stupid and insipid excuses for ALL of his wrongdoing.  My opinion is that any parent that protects a child from the consequences of his own actions and blames others for those actions is raising someone who has the potential to do exponentially MORE wrong later in life.

Where is the personal responsibility that Americans used to instill in their kids? What of the idea of honor and duty to ones own country. The general 1960s mentality is starting to pay its dividends...

Now I do not know this little punk, I do not know his parents, all I know is what he is _alleged_ to have done.  All of the above is my opinion only and ill-informed at that.

"Walker’s parents are relieved to know that their son is alive and receiving medical care."

My personal wish is that his parents get word of this alleged TRAITOR's head being blown off.

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifonria, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 01:40:06 (ZULU)

A method I've used is just to take a fired case and close the mouth with the sizer just enough so that the bullet is tight enough that it won't slip on it's own but you can still move it with your finger pressure,  so it doesn't stick or get pulled back out by trying to stick in the lands... Leave it extended way beyond normal  and then close the bolt. Then extract the bullet and measure it. What you have is the length from bolt head to lands represented by the bullet.

you have the actual length but you should seat about .002 or so short of contacting the lands.  You will probably find that the bullet will not go in the magazine now! So you must reduce it further. IF you want your rifle to remain a repeater you will probably be quite a lot shorter than the actual chambering lenght as measured.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 02:21:40 (ZULU)

 We're down to 82 unpaid tix.... processed a sh*t load of postal mail payments today. thanks to those that hustled the payments in.

Ken

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 02:40:51 (ZULU)

Losing control of the radicals would be a propaganda disaster that would have very real military effects.  Those radicals would also become direct threats.  We have the opportunity to neutralize some of those dangers.  We should begin by making an example of Walker by demanding the same treatment for him that we want for the Foreign Taliban and Al Qaeda.  Let's see if we blow that opportunity.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 02:41:40 (ZULU)

Got a friend that says wild pigs are running over most of Florida and you can shoot about as much bacon as you can carry for free on some of the farms. Hence my new idea similar in fact to what I read about rats and caves during WWII. We Rosterferians could head down Florida way, and instead of shooting them we trap us 10 or 15,000 of them pigs and ship them to Astan. After not feeding them for a week or so, we turn them loose in the caves. Not only would we have less bad guys but the big piggies would have little piggies and so on an so forth.

William,

Check out the American Security line of safes. Cheaper and just as well made IMHO.

All calm and ready for bed, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 02:57:07 (ZULU)

The Buff that unloaded on this strike was not on a CAS mission. The 2,000 lb. GBU that was used was not an LGB, which uses a laser target designator to light up the target. This designator can be employed by a ground FAC, another aircraft, or the bombing aircraft itself.

The GBU that went ballistic supposedly was being guided from a satellite by way of a GPS system to take out a single particular target. They didn't have this s**t when this old fart was using the pickel.

I could be dead wrong on this and I apologize in advance if that's the case, but my communication lines are usually pretty decent. If I hear any more details I'll pass them along if you're interested.

A respectful Semper Fi,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 04:04:20 (ZULU)

It is the responsibility of the U.S. Military to arrange the meeting.

JC

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 05:56:20 (ZULU)

I posted the note I originally posted here on another forum... another poster put up this link which says it all 1000 times better than I can:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=95001558

That opinion piece is VERY much worth reading...

And now ya know why I sign my state of residence as CCCPalifornia...

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 06:14:34 (ZULU)

I meant that the governments over there are secular in the sense that they are hereditary monarchies, not Islamic republics ruled by the Mullahs.  I didn't mean to imply anything on how religious they are, just that their power derives from more conventional lines, not the islamic religous leaders.  I realize they have tons of laws basically enforcing Islamic law.  And yes, they are pretty weak.  Let's see if they realize they are only going to get weaker if they don't end the radicals themselves.  From what I've read Jordan is pretty good about combatting the terrorists.

And, like I said, from things I've read in the past couple of days I've too come to the conclusion that Johnny Walker (which label?)  needs to be put on trial and dealt with.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 07:31:59 (ZULU)

Since he is not held responsible for his actions, the victims families surely won't be held responsible for theirs.  We can pitch the leftover peices to the hogs if there are any that is....

I am just glad that by the time alot of the guys on this site were 20, they wanted to be in Law Enforcement, or in the military, or otherwise support the second amendment and FREEDOM.  

To all of you cops and grunts and pilots and sailors and Swat guys: THANK YOU for keeping us safe from the John Walker Abduls of the world!

BTW: Today is December 7th.

Matt <mattr@ocslink.com>
USA!!!!! - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 09:04:24 (ZULU)

PULLEEZ excuse me for posting a firearms related post to our "political commentary" board...;-)

6.5/06 vs 6.5 x .284

Local Hi-power shooter has thrown down the gauntlet. He's been shooting a used 6.5/06 that he purchased and has said it's superior to the 6.5 x .284. Blasphemy! We meet Sunday for a good natured shoot, coffee, and general good time. Will report back on that later.

Any of you folks shooting 6.5/06? Personally, I don't/won't as it's not factory supported and offers nothing over the 6.5 X .284.

Comments?

As for the current fracas...let's just let the lads do thier jobs and not second guess them.

Friendly fire...it happens. One of those "fog of war" things. Sinister Dave summed it up well.

As for "call for fire/air delivery", it used to be that all Marines got a basic doctrinal and hands on training. I'll bet if I pull my USMC Essential Subjects off the book case in front of me it'll be in there, too.

My best to all...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 12:10:02 (ZULU)

On the smart bomb thing.  Isn't it guided via Military/GPS coordinates of both enemy and friendly positions?  Is it possible to mix up the coordinates and send it?

According to the excerpts I've read about the interrogation of John Walker with Mike Spann prior to the uprising, this little prick was being very uncooperative.   He should have been dealt with then and there.  OOps!   Hey wasn't it John Walkers belief to die for Allah?   What's the problem...   Line a bunch of the SOB's up in a straight line and take them out with a single 50 cal shot.  Saves time and ammo and satisfies Allah's needs.

De Oppresso Liber...

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 12:14:49 (ZULU)

6.5-06 vs 6.5 x .284 aritcle in this month's PS magazine.

I haven't read it yet.  I just got home last night and had time to leaf through it.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 12:20:58 (ZULU)

  What Bill R. said on seating depth hes right on. Where are you in Wyoming?? Dave Lauck has a great shooting facility out in Gellette. You can shoot out to a mile if you want. I find it hard to believe you have a hard time finding a place to shoot in Wyoming though, unless your looking for schooling then Dave is still the man to talk to. Check out his web sight at D&L Sports.

Wes..

 The 6.5x06 is about 75 to 100fps slower than the 6.5x284. Its  a fine hunting round but does not have the accuracy of the 284 case at longer range. I talked to a lot of guys shooting 1000yd stuff and they all said the samething. If the 06 was better or the same we would be shooting it instead of the 284, enough said.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 13:34:36 (ZULU)

Jordan is fairly pro western/ British, we sold em our Challenger 1 tanks, for a pound sterling each, and threw in the Gunnery training equipment for free, I had the chance to work there as technical support, but they didn't want to pay enough, so now they have lots of tanks and training equipment and are still figuring out how to work it all.And just because the Government is pro western, doesn't mean the rest of the country is, remember Iran !, I don't think it would take much to rock the boat in Jordan.

MARCO, where the hell has he got too??? any one seen him ??

Back to shhooootin pigs. Found yon wounded runaway grunter, SOB had gone over 900m with no liver and half his lungs, at least the foxes hadn't started on him.

I went out for a flight of ducks late yesterday afternoon, but some one forgot to tell the ducks about it, cos they stood us up !! then it was out after some more hogs last night, and after locking my damn keys in my damn jeep, then breaking into it with a coat hanger (which was far to easy !!) I finaly got into the woods. Shot a piggy at 11.30hrs, he ran for the woods and I heard him fall in the frozen leaves, waited hoping more would show up, na.. got a Roe deer this morning at 07.30 hrs, who ran also into the woods (I gotta stop using these 150gr bullets, they don't transfer enough energy), luckily the deer almost fell on top of the pig, which made finding them easy, let my dawg follow the blood trail, just for the practice, So I finaly blooded my "sniper" rifle, and its venison and pork chops all round, a good couple of nights hunting this week, and the company christmass dinner tonight, free beer.. happy chappie.. Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 13:49:49 (ZULU)

It is just as accurate as the 6.5-284 and the slight loss in velocity is insignificant for tactical shooting.  So unless you are trying for the world record in group size at 1000yds than it's a mute point.

The only issue with the 6.5-06 is that it is still a wildcat round.  The easiest way to form brass is just full size using the 6.5-06 die from a 25-06 case.  This is where the accuracy difference comes to play.  There is not any match grade 25-06 out there that I have come across and what's out there (Rem, Win, etc) is not the greatest quality, therefore you need to get 30-06 match brass and run it through a case forming die before running it through a full size 6.5-06 die.   It's an extra step that adds to your reloading time.

The velocity loss requires very little MOA difference from the 6.5x284 and barrel life should be longer with the 06.

I don't know what the cost of 6.5x284 cases are but 30-06 match brass I would assume is a lot cheaper and at my range I can get it for free from a lot of shooters that don't reload.

Anyone have comments on the 260 Rem ?   Specifically out of say a 19" barrel and is there any match brass available for it?

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 13:59:01 (ZULU)

On the young MAN that fought our US troops in A'stan, but once lived under the protection of those same troops here in the USA.

This one is simple...put it in perspective.  If he and his had their way, we (men) would be lined up and shot.  Our wives would be barefoot, treated as property, and on occasion, shot for talking back or complaining when their new husbands beat and raped them (or starved them if they were thought to be "spoiled" from previous marriage).  Our children (orphans now) would be treated as lesser people, beaten and forced to learn a religion that their parents did not believe in...

Think about this.. Mike Spann may have been shot by Johnny shitbag...

Why does this require thought...shoot him now... I will pay for the bullet and pull the trigger, and sleep well that night.

I am over 18 and an American citizen.  I am responsible for the actions of my government.  Johnny dirtbag renounced his citizenship to this great country when he picked up a rifle and aimed it at our troops...he is a terrorist and must be treated as such.

December 7th, I remember, my flag is up.  Vets, alive and dead, THANK YOU FOR MY FREEDOM.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 14:06:34 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5675-2001Dec6.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 14:26:21 (ZULU)

http://www.oldcity.com/wtc.html

God bless America

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 15:32:59 (ZULU)

The rifle is being built by Dave Tooley.  I had originally asked for a Kreiger double cryo, but he said that he didn't have one at that moment and had a Hart coming anytime.  He said as long as the barrel was from a good manufacturer it didn't make much difference; 'its all in the setting up and the barrel is one of the least important parts to an accurate rifle'.  He also thinks cryo is a waste of money and only really help the barrel manufacturing as they are easier to work; he found no difference in accuracy, no difference in longevity and little to no difference in cleaning.

As a lover of gadgets and gimmicks I thought I had better seek a second opinion before I finally decided to forget about the cryo.

Thanks again guys.

Jon  

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 15:36:11 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 15:46:28 (ZULU)

 I won't disagree with what you said in the since of a "Tactical rifle but in the Br rifles there is enough diffenence in accuracy for theose guys to not use the 6.5x06.

 I don't know why you would want such a short barrel. I have a 22" barrel on my 260 and its a dream to handle and balances out perfect!! You can still shoot to 1000yds with it also. I am not sure where you would be with the 18" you may not be able to make the required 2600fps to keep them super sonic at 1000yds with out getting pressure.

  I am loading 38grs of Varget with the 140AMAXs to reach 2680 with the 22" but I am not sure you would want to go much more and a slower powder will use up your case to much. Just my thoughts on it.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 16:40:26 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/ledeen120701.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 16:49:52 (ZULU)

Thanks guys,

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 17:01:24 (ZULU)

George has been able to deliver this super quality across 4 rifles I have had him apply his magic to....

I have found VERY OFTEN, relating to me only, that most accuracy issues are with the "nut behind the butt"... you might want to inspect this variable in your rifle before reworking your load <G>

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 17:22:37 (ZULU)

I know this isn't a sniper thing, but so what?  I just got off the phone with a Garand guy in Texas.  He's going to do the "full Monte" to my M1.  It'll take a few months but it'll be worth it.  Now I've got to start setting aside my lunch money.  I find that the Garand has a special, almost "organic" feel about it.  Shooting it is a real pleasure.  Ringing steel at 500 yards with iron sights is a hoot.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 17:29:52 (ZULU)

Jon what about your part of the world, are you FC guys given any shots ? Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 18:03:53 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 18:09:33 (ZULU)

           http://www.quietpros.com/

Sarge:   43.7 grs of 4064 w/175 MKs, Fed 210M primers and GM cases has been working well for me out of a 20" Kreiger 1/11 barrel.

Pat:  For next years rifle project I was thinking an HS Precision Thumbhole stock for a 700 SA I have for kind of a silhouette type of rifle.  I'm think of using open target sights and a clip slot feed.  I could probably get away with it in my clubs high power matches   and like you said nothing beats the feel and balance of a short heavy fluted barrel.

The 6.5-06 with 21" barrel does well to a 1000.  In fact it shot well in Texas for me at 800 and 1000 yd Larues in flaky winds.   My problem there was shooting 1" dots at 25 yds with a 10x scope and 1" black dots at 100yds at night.   The eyes just don't focus like they use.  It's getting tuff being my age, I have to find more ways to cheat.

De Oppresso Liber

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 18:13:32 (ZULU)

Regular price is $ 69.99.  I think the sale goes off Dec. 14th.  Thought some of ya'll might want to tell Santa.

NOTE:  My ex-wife was a "TORQUED WENCH".  Higher maintenance and much more expensive than the above piece of equipment, but I digress.

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 18:21:10 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9138-2001Dec7.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 18:41:10 (ZULU)

 I hear you Bud!! If you don't cheat, at our age your not going to win(HA).

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 19:59:59 (ZULU)

Maybe Rumsfelt has been listening to Michael Ladeen.  Below is a quote from the NRO URL you posted earlier today.  Sums the whole thing up neatly.

"We need to sustain our game face, we must keep our fangs bared, we must remind them daily that we Americans are in a rage, and we will not rest until we have avenged our dead, we will not be sated until we have had the blood of every miserable little tyrant in the Middle East, until every leader of every cell of the terror network is dead or locked securely away, and every last drooling anti-Semitic and anti-American mullah, imam, sheikh, and ayatollah is either singing the praises of the United States of America, or pumping gasoline, for a dime a gallon, on an American military base near the Arctic Circle."

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 20:15:53 (ZULU)

A convoy of Taliban soldiers is traveling through the dessert.  They hear a lone voice from behind the sand dunes saying "One Marine is better than 10 Taliban soldiers".  The Taliban commander sends ten of his men over to investigate.  A fierce firefight ensues for a few minutes then, silence.  Again the voice "One Marine is better than 100 Taliban soldiers".  The commander this time sends 100 of his men.  Another fierce firefight begins and as soon as the first one is over.  The voice again "One Marine is better than 1000 Taliban soldiers!!!"  The enraged Taliban commander sends the rest of his men over the dune.  The firefight begins and rages on for awhile, then silence.  This time tho one lone almost dead Taliban soldier makes it back over the dune.  With his last breath he tells the commander "it was a trap, there's two of them! Double HA, as Pat would say.  May God bless those who keep us safe!!  

joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
Turlock, CA, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 20:38:53 (ZULU)

Is that why you team up with a highly trained emergency medical guy.

;-p

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 20:51:58 (ZULU)

I'm sure most of you gentlemen know this already, but at one time I didn't.  So, take it for what it's worth, not a heck of a lot.

Hold hard,

Fitz.

Fitz <sfitzgerald@arpac.com>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 21:34:29 (ZULU)

No matter what you think of Neil Young, politicaly or musically, (personally I think he usually sounds like a cat being strangled -lito) this is a good song and worth listening to.

The mp3 file is @ http://www.bigstepdown.com/letsroll/

The words (below) are from

http://hyperrust.org/News/Flash/LetsRoll.html#Top

==============================================

Let's Roll

by Neil Young

I know I said I love you,

I know you know it's true,

I got to put the phone down,

And do what we gotta do.

One's standing in the aisle way,

Two more at the door,

We got to get inside there,

Before they kill some more.

Time is runnin' out, let's roll.

Time is runnin' out, let's roll.

No time for indecision,

We got to make a move,

I hope that we're forgiven,

For what we gotta do.

How this all got started,

I'll never understand,

I hope someone can fly this thing,

Get us back to land.

Time is runnin' out, let's roll.

Time is runnin' out, let's roll.

No one has the answers,

But one thing is true,

You got to turn on evil,

When it's comin' after you.

You got to face it down,

And when it tries to hide,

You got to go in after it,

And never be denied.

Time is runnin' out, let's roll.

Let's roll for freedom,

Let's roll for love,

Goin' after Satan,

On the wings of a dove.

Let's roll for justice,

Let's roll for truth,

Let's not let our children,

Grow up fearful in their youth.

Time is runnin' out, let's roll.

Time is runnin' out, let's roll.

Time is runnin' out, let's roll.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 21:34:47 (ZULU)

Bolt starting the weekend right, Out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 22:06:09 (ZULU)

i am looking at the 6X18X65

i am just getting started in long range shooting

and dont want to spend a lot

this seems to have the most for the money

any info would be helpful

thanks

mike <heater99@prodigy.net>
muncie, indiana, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 22:32:42 (ZULU)

"and dont want to spend a lot"

Man you have got to jump in with both feet like the rest of us. Take a loan out on the house, quit feeding the dog, quit drinking beer for a day or two, and in general become a pauper in order to buy yourself a good rig. Don't skimp on optics. Kinda like buying a Beemer and putting putting low test gas in it. Just won't run right.

hehehehehe, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 22:40:08 (ZULU)

Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Friday, December 7, 2001, at 22:43:36 (ZULU)

I read a good article a few weeks ago about how Iraq and our good freinds the Saudis and the Kuwaitis (who apparently have a short memory) give money to the families of suicide bombers.

This money comes from their governments, not privately. I'll dig around and see if I can find that article again.

Bob <rvl@inil.com>
Chicago, USA - Friday, December 7, 2001, at 23:12:52 (ZULU)

Spirit of America High Power Rifle Prone Open Match, NRA Whittington Center, Raton, New Mexico, 2-8 September 2002.

F-Class is any rifle, any sight, off a bipod, benchrest (prone), or ruck/bag of your choice.

Two days of practice/zero confirmation at all yard lines.

Individual, 2-man, 4-man, and 8-man team events (we're talking HUGE potential for BRAGGING RIGHTS in this match, boys!).  Team events also  mean coaches can call your winds, for those cherries thinking, "Nah, I've never shot that far before."

This is one for all you west of the Mississippi/ Southwest USA Hogs (and international shooters are invited).

I think this may be the (shooting) match those with limited, valuable vacation time might keep an eye on.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 00:34:42 (ZULU)

Bolt preparing for annual Christmas Party at the dance club, Out!

P.S., Meatwoman requested the Bolster take a shower and wear a suit. Blashpemy but I relinquished. I do clean up perty well.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 00:40:16 (ZULU)

Bolt, please have your picture made in that suit. Marius can you get that one in the archive? Your getting real mellow in your old age Boltstar!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 00:59:19 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 01:17:52 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$UTKMB3AAAALFLQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/08/wfall08.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/08/ixhome.html

Bill:  Those sledge-headed hay-burners have given me aches and pains I'll take to my grave.  I'd rather walk.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 01:46:08 (ZULU)

I unfortunately have one of each! I love Sears, and I have two of their torque wrenches, but the Seekonk T handle torque wrench kit from Badger Ordnance is what you really should get for your rifle needs. It is calibrated and comes with all the accessories and bits you might need to work on your rifle. The really nice thing is that this precision tool is small, and very reasonably priced. I just got mine last week and it is a very cool xmas present to myself!

Now if I can just figure out the wench!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 02:13:30 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 02:15:48 (ZULU)

Mike...  STAY AWAY FROM THEM "ATN" SCOPES... They make Tabasaco's look like premimum optics.  My partner and I saw one two weeks ago, and damn near laughed our asses off.  They are finished in black "krinkle" paint... (Bluing? What Bluing? We don' need no steeenkin' Bluing!!).

I know it's hard to come up with money (we live on macaroni and cheese around here... but got good sticks!), but alla guys here will tell you, DON'T BUY CRAP!  You just have to buy the good stuff again, plus nobody will buy the crap from you.  Wanna buy a 6x18 Bushnell?  Used once, and 11 years old. I can't get rid of it.

-

Hank... Bravo is well.  His lawyer tol' him to stay off the internet until the "problem" is gone!

-

Bolt-ster... >"Blashpemy but I relinquished. I do clean up perty well."<

... With a of pound of Tide and two trips through the long cycle ;)) HA!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 02:43:17 (ZULU)

On women.  I came to the conclusion the other day that I make poor women choices.  I either pick crazy women or drive them crazy.  Although I read a study that said "Half the women are crazy"  It went on to say "The other half are medicated"  Justa  joke Major Kim.  Long live Bravo!

On ATN Scopes.  ATN= Alternate To Never Missing or as Litto said pure junk.  Buy a good scope once not five or six cheap ones before you buy a good one.

Sinister sounds like a good time in NM.

Torque wrenches, went through all the purchases and ended with the T handle.

On this POS that is now just a kid,after being caught fighting the US.  Well he went from fetus to baby to kid to man.  Sounds like he is going backward.  lets just skip right back to embryo and abort his ass!

Good will to all fellow HOGs and supporters of the US.  Good targets the rest make.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 03:12:00 (ZULU)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001560012-2001565548,00.html  

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 03:42:09 (ZULU)

Thanks for the comments back on the causes of the friendly fire.  I disagree friendly fire is just a product of war and should be expected.  I accept it will happen but expect us to do everything possible to prevent it. But in a strange way, I MAY have found the answer myself.  Today I stumbled across the GPS jammer.  Apparently it is made in Russia and the Taliban have them. Cheap and reportedly effective.

Here is a link to the info if you are interested. Just click on my name. Before you go in to injun country, you may want to do a land-nav refresher with the old-fashioned compass and laminated map.  

Kim

Kim Hunter <kim@hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 03:42:12 (ZULU)

I scrolled the match stuff, WAY COOL!

TALK ABOUT A SCHUTZENFEST AND A HALF! AND IN THE LAND OF CHILE!!!

And I could actually break out "OL'#1" and shoot it with impunity.

Guess its time to start working on a portable courtesy shield for folks who may be alongside.

If I start saving my shekels now, MAYBE............. ;-)

Check your mailbox dude

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 11:41:44 (ZULU)

http://www.pe.net/~thrblade/Knives/armsks.htm

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 13:35:16 (ZULU)

Bolt - http://camillusknives.com/bkt-knives.htm  check out the "Brute".

Them thar Bolo/Khukri<sp?> "new" hybreds are pretty cool.

Chao-slice-oooouu-Weeeee!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
big City, By-GaWd, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 13:48:39 (ZULU)

Bill where are you 'yote hunting at??

Yep this does look like fun and since it's in my neighborhood!!!!

Dave where did you find or where can I find the F Class info??

And BTW I'm SURE there are enough of us to really get the SENIOR class stuff going!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 13:55:19 (ZULU)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 14:06:11 (ZULU)

This is the best description of 'F' Class that I have found. Like the guys told me at the match, its nothing but prone benchrest. I really am going to push for a 'factory' F class so's us peasants can 'compete' with each other. They don't call it the X crowd for nothing! Sinister is most definitely an X-man supreme.

http://www.dcra.ca/F%20Class/Rule%20SummaryNov2.htm

Hot green? More beer and Zantac?

PeteR,

Have one of them kuhkri's. It's nice but haven't found one yet that will hold an edge. Looks like most of them were made from truck springs. Used to make machettes from car springs in high school metal shop.

Road trip to NM......

We could rent a Winnebago and drive straight through. Is there a place to park an RV at the shooting site?

Time to go find a Christmas tree, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 14:31:06 (ZULU)

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
- Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 17:30:24 (ZULU)

Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
US - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 17:37:37 (ZULU)

Here is some info that you my or may not find interesting.  This is regarding the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant and the  M118 LR round.

The plant opened in 1941 and management was contracted to Remington Arms from 1941 to 1985.  During this time, I believe, is when all the ammunition was loaded with DuPont/IMR powders.  In 1985 the management contract for the facility was awarded to Winchester/Olin.  Winchester/Olin managed the facility until July 30, 1999 at which point Alliant Techsystems took over.  Alliant signed a 25-year facility management contract and a 10 year contract to produce ammunition.  Here is something that I found interesting.  In 1999 when the contract was awarded to Alliant Techsystems for the production of small arms ammunition, Alliant subcontracted Federal Cartridge for manufacturing and technical assistance.  Now a little background on Federal; Federal Cartridge is owned by Blount International.  Blount also owns CCI/Speer, RCBS, Weaver, Redfield and other well known names within the firearms industry.  Just a couple of weeks ago Alliant Techsystems completed the acquisition of Federal Cartridge from Blount.

All this said, it looks like all our military ammunition is effectively Federal ammo from this point forward.

I hope that this information will provide guidelines for those of us that have questions about Lake City ammo.  Drawing logical conclusions from this info, we should be able to determine closely the component makeup of our surplus ammo.

One last note regarding the M118 LR ammunition; I am not sure when the development of this round was begun, but the first year of production was 1997.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 17:58:12 (ZULU)

I beheaded my mule deer with one swipe with the khukri, it is very well balanced and light weight.  I bought it for $40.00 from cold steel at the '99 SOF show, it is a factory second.  The reason it was a 2nd is because their was a very slight scratch on the blade, I knew I would be putting scratches on it anyway.  Other than that it was perfect.

I am a big fan of cold steel products and I am only going to buy cold steel from now on.  :-)  

And no I don't work for them.  

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 18:07:06 (ZULU)

I have several Cold Steel knives I have a Khukra that I am saving until my daughter is old enough to date.  When the boy comes in to pick her up I will be sharpening it(by the way it is already razor sharp)and we will have a talk before they leave.  I also have a master hunter which I deboned a FL deer with and did not have to sharpen it to complete the job.  With 3 strokes on each side with the crock sticks it was back to it's normal razors edge.  I also have a SRK (Survival Rescue Knife)it has served me well also. Benchmade is the only other knife I have had this kind of success with. I carry  a Benchmade folder with me everywhere I go. I had a Gerber that would not hold a edge, after the first cut it was dull.

On Thursday another Vietnam vet decided to end his life. Semper Fi Perry.

Out,

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!! - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 19:14:23 (ZULU)

Nick - I got the same $40.00 Khukri at '99 SOF and it is awesome.  That has got to be one of the sharpest knives I have ever owned.  Damn thing draws my blood in one way or another everytime I get it out of the sheath.  Best money I have ever spent.  Cold steel products are very nice.

Thanks to the vets & active guys - I do enjoy my freedom.

No wind.

Tony V. <longdistancereaper@hotmail.com>
CO, - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 19:27:25 (ZULU)

We're in collections mode. We are down to 47 unpaid tickets. Please get your payments in if you have not done so. I will be sending out a reminder email. If you get a note in error - please ignore it.

Also - the total number of tickets sold has changed from 195 to 194. I double-tapped one of the hogs and issued 2 ticket numbers instead of one. So therefore -your chances are just that much better.

Take care, Happy Holidays, Semper Fi, God Bless,

Ken :)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 19:28:44 (ZULU)

My OLD Gerbers (20+ years) are excellent pieces of cutlery.  The new ones I've seen are junk and I won't even look at 'em anymore.

Had a great afternoon yesterday shootin' the bull with the Undude.  Stood around Wayne's Gun Shop in Dublin, Ka. (Ca.).  Highly recommended shop.

Got to see the next USMC Sniper scope.  Holy Moly is it ever hard-core!  'Course it HAS to be when it's issued to Jarheads!  Gorgeous piece of workmanship.

Also got to fondle a real-life "Rock" rifle.  MMM-MMMM  GOOD!

Glad to hear you're doing better, Major.

Semper-Fi to ALL the young Lads and Lassies doing their part for freedom!

That fella wanting to get off cheap in LR shooting;  I had to have a second job, and I'm STILL paying my gear off!  But man am I addicted!

Spud,

Out

dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, kalifornicateya, USA - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 00:32:10 (ZULU)

                         Thanks

Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 00:42:50 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11152-2001Dec7.html

I ruined a BK&T knife by chopping up a 2X4.  The edge is just too fragile.  Cold Steel makes a real good knife.  The Trailmaster Bowie is a real good choice.  Someone cleaned a deer with a Tanto?  Not me.  That would be like swatting flies with a ball peen hammer.  These little Gerber folders work fine for skinning and gutting.  If it won't hold an edge, it didn't have one.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 00:48:16 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$VMVK5ZIAABHQJQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/09/war09.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/09/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 01:16:53 (ZULU)

Sharpening my Gerber is a big pain in the butt.  It takes over twice as much time to put a good sharp edge on it when compaired to my cold steel knifes and the edge lasts less than half as long as the cold steel.

I can skin just over 1/4 the deer with my gator folding knife before it needs to be sharpened, but with my recon tanto I was able to clean the deer and skin it up to it's front legs without the edge being noticably dull.  And at this point the Tanto still has a much sharper edge than my Gerber.  I was very unimpressed with my Gerber.  I am going to sell it and buy a Cold Steel folding knife to replace it.

Tony:  Your daughters boyfriend will be crapping his pants when he sees it. lol They are mean looking knifes.  Did you get the free cold steel video?  It's a great video.  They do a ton of torture testing on the knifes.  You can call them and they will ship you one for free, I recommend everyone watch it.  They do things with their knives that nobody else would even dream of.

Tim:  I would just leave the coating on.  However you could call Cold Steel and ask them about it.  I don't think many people remove the black coating.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 01:21:35 (ZULU)

During a recent Rem. 700 build-up, I unexpectedly found myself in need of a specific barrel in the middle of the project. The original barrel I intended to use was not going to work and, having heard about the reputation of his barrels, I sent Mike an E-Mail late one night. To my surprise, Mike responded right away. I explained my situation to him. He offered to help out and said he would make a barrel to my exact specs and have it out to me within three days. The barrel arrived on time and looks great. It will be installed soon and I will report back on how it performs. He also sent me photos of a modified M-14 project he has completed that should hold 1/2 minute out to 600 yards! I'm saving my nickles and dimes for this one!

I found Mike to be professional, enthusiastic and willing to share whatever information is requested of him. He took alot of time to explain the benefits of the 5R design to me. I learned quite a lot during my phone conversations with him. More importantly, he went above and beyond to help me out even though it must have been inconvenient for him to do so. I really appreciate what he did. Mike's E-Mail address is: mikerock@mhtc.net

Thanks for hearing me out and I will remain on the sidelines, contributing whenever I may have something useful.

Finger....I am looking forward to seeing you in March in N.C.  Moleskin... give me a call whenever you can.  

Mike D <Gulfspray@Earthlink.Net>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 01:22:21 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 01:46:56 (ZULU)

New Mexico is a good place too but their  out of state license fees are high for varmints.

Been down around Wagon Mound and Tucumcari some.

If memory serves me.

That 670 Winchester is kind of a cheap post 64 model 70. Quality control was suffering a bit at the time I believe. You could have a fair to middlin one by accident if your lucky.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 02:09:00 (ZULU)

Later,

Steve D.

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 02:09:29 (ZULU)

If I had the option, which equals money, I would go with the 10x hands down. Less moving parts for Murphy to mess with. You will rarely ever need more or less magnification out to 1000, which I amazingly proved to myself at the match. When I order my Rock, yeah right, that's the scope that will adorn it.

Google search on fire retardents....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fire+retardant+liquid&spell=1

HDR,

Cost for an out of state NM license? Of course we could just open the door, entice them into the RV with some peanuts and then bash them in the head.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 02:51:38 (ZULU)

   Oklahoma $91  

   Kansas   $65  

   Colorado $41.50

   New Mexico $215.00  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 03:27:52 (ZULU)

Spent the day, as RSO, at Albany Rifle and Pistol Clubs winter Full Auto shoot. GREAT time had by all. Weapons from WWI to present. Including some sniper rifles. A number of Barrett M82A1's with Loopie scopes and one with the Swarovski 50 cal scope. WAY KEWL!

Got my hands on a Rem 700 LTR. VERY nice! They didn't put that god awful palm swell stock on it that they used on the Tactical Rifle. This one actually feels good. Shit, NOW I want one! Dammit...why does this happen to little old me.

We've gone international at the shoot, which, by the way, is the largest west of the Mississippi. A contingent flew in from the land of Nippon. Went back with smiles it'll take a week to wipe off. Maybe we Americans aren't so crazy...

Cat spotted downrange. Unscathed. Seems out range is a "sanctuary" so mister kitty was safe. Doesn't know how lucky he/she was...

Good thing 'Lito wasn't there.

All for now. I'm pooped and we have to finish range clean up in the morn...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 03:37:06 (ZULU)

Rex

Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 08:25:00 (ZULU)

Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 08:35:19 (ZULU)

Frank <rainbowr@plateautel.net>
Tucumcari, NM, USA - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 12:09:59 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 14:07:48 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14464-2001Dec8.html

Credible reports that Bin Laden is in Tora Bora.  The passes in the Hindu Kush are supposed to be blocked with fresh snow.  We're stepping up the bombing.  We may hit pay dirt, here.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20011209-3530826.htm

General Tommy Franks is a four-star gun-bunny.  Don't you know that he would dearly love to put his beloved arty in there and pound those mortar positions?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 14:08:55 (ZULU)

First i'd like to thank 'Lito, Jim Mitchel, Rob01, Kevin and Andy Mussack for their hospitality during the Jersey shoot and the fact that they all brought along a rifle for me to borrow.

These are some mighty good folks/ rosterfarians, and must admit, i was in complete awe when i met them, you americans know your stuff when it comes to shooting, learned alot from them, in fact, i was so much impressed, i totally forgot to even take pictures of you guys!

Furthermore would like to give my apologies towards Frank and Bill, sorry guys, couldn't make it to your places due to lack of time and lack of money, although i spent 6 weeks in your country, 5 of them was full of working on a ranch in kentucky and living in the USA can be quite expensive for non-residents.

But still got to do quite a bit of hunting small game while i was at the ranch, shot me a whole bunch of squirels, raccoons, skunks (learned the hard way that one should never put a dead skunk on the hood of an camaro near the airco inlet...duhuh) and totally destroyed the possum population in an 5 mile radius.

Even got to meet both dad and son Chandler at their workshop in Jacksonville NC, on the way down to Miami, Chandler senior took 2 hours to show me al the rifles they were working on, and i for one was totally impressed with the pieces of ART i witnessed.

They build just about anything you want, all ofcourse on the Remmie 700 action, but with 16 inch barrels upto 30 inch, with or without compensators, just about all the McMillan stocks, jewell triggers or customized remmie triggers, leuppie's or nightforce's ontop, you name it, they do it.

And while working on an horse sale in Harrisburg PA i got a few days off to visit New York and Washington, and yup, the Towers really are gone...was really impressive, there was still smoke coming from the ruins and it was good to see how the people of NY still strongly supported their fireman and policeman, and the pentagon looks like a wounded animal, really strange to see such a big part missing out of it. While there also paid a visit ofcourse to the Vietnam and Korean war memorials.

In short, each time i visit your country it becomes harder and harder for me to leave it, if i could get me a job on the US police force i would be back on a plane yesterday...

Also finished my first week at the Dutch police academy, was really interesting, really looking forward to the next 4 years of learning, only drawback is the issued police pistol, a Walther P5, not really the best gun ever invented for police work, will have to learn and work with it though.

To Pete Lincoln,

Don't shoot all the boar, you hear, cause i'll be coming there again the last week of januar for the driven hunt and this time i am gonna shoot me some pig, got some experience now, so they better watch out!

Cya folks around,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 14:19:47 (ZULU)

Boltster... now that you're nice and clean, STAY OUT OF THE MUD for a week! ;).

Frank lives so far out, a call to town hall is long distance rates ;))

-------------

'yote Bate... Cost for an out of state NM license? HA! (as Pat would say)...

Game officer - "Say ol' timer, lemme see your hunting licence for them Coyotes"

'yote Bate - "Honest ossifer, I wasn't huntin no 'yotes"

Game Officer - "Well, what that over there?"

'yote Bate - "Well ossifer, I was jus' plinkin' some rocks out here in your be-yutiful desert, when I was attacked by them 'yotes and feared for my life...  I was just plain defending myself!"

Game Officer - "Well... if you were being attacked, how come the bullets aren't going the front?"

'yote Bate - "Well, they were attackin' me in a pack, and were circling around, you know how sneekie then 'yotes are."

Game Officer - IF that was true, I'd expect them shots to be hittin' 'em broadside, but these bullet holes are from the rear!  Now come on, and fess up!"

'yote Bate - "WEll ossifer, I was hidin' for my life in those bushes over there, and I 'spect they were attackin' in the wrong direction, cuz they must have been confused as to where I was at the time."

----------

Wes... Did that LTR have a McMillan A2 stock on it?  I saw an LTR near here, with an A2, and one of those match adjustable aluminum butt plates on it... damn nice (except for the 20" bbl)... it had a Rem Green tag on it, and was $2100... If it wasn't one of these, what stock was on it?

As to Cats and Ranges... I think all ranges are a universal "sanctuary" for critters (even CATS!)... I shot at a range that had a bunch of wood chucks living in the middle of the 200 yard field, and God help the FNG that even scared them, cuz he was getting a trip out behind the halfmoon house.

-

Rex... (text deleted... Rule #1 Never weigh powder without my readin' glasses on :((

And as to action strength, the Rem action will take 100,000 pounds (not PSI, but REAL pounds) of force, when the lugs take a set... but normal cases will melt and flow out at about 8% of that (75,000 to 85,000 PSI), and primers will punch out at about 4 to 5% of that (65,000 PSI)???

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 14:23:58 (ZULU)

Re: Win 670

There is such a rifle.  This was a low cost rifle only made a couple of years in the 1980s.  It has a blind magazine and has a push feed type bolt.  A friend of mine has one in .30-06 and it is a pretty nice rifle.  It shoots really well.  He picked it up at a gun show for $200.   Are familiar with the Remington Sportsman 78 rifle?  The 670 is the Winchester equivalent.

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 14:33:12 (ZULU)

This is an easy one to avoid.  Just don't take him alive, or make damn sure the Brits aren't anywhere near when he's taken.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/12/09/ret.uk.laden/index.html

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 14:41:51 (ZULU)

If you are planning on using the rifle as a urban/police sniper type rifle go with the variable. Two reasons:

1)Field of view. At 100 yards and in a target can walk out of your field of view in less than two to three steps. Yeah, I am sure you know about leading and tracking and trapping etc.. but what about a sudden direction change?

What if the bad guy drops his gun to surrender and you cannd iee it because your field of view stops at his throat?

2) You can adjust the power down to assist you with night/dusk shooting.

Can't argue with the posted choice of fixed for long range. All IMHO

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 14:59:19 (ZULU)

Then, the Cobras flew in and we had to stop shooting the M-60, and we got to watch them unload a ton of the dumb rockets, plus some TOWs.  It was pretty cool.  Don't know if any rabbits took a TOW, however.  ;-)

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 15:06:04 (ZULU)

Just placed a mint Styer SPP on sale on the Emporium. Take a look.

Hazmat training this afternoon with SORT. Get to see some new high tech gadgets that will probably be prone to battery drainage or breakage due to too many bells and whistles. High tech sometimes = high Murphy probabilities. Multi purpose stuff bothers me.

NM road trip looking exciting even though I don't like spicey food. NC, VA, SC Rosterferians need to huddle up to see what the sitrep is for next September. Ha chiwawa!!!

Getting excited about all the matches next year. Wish I had started many years ago instead of waiting until my golden years. Have to learn all the service riffle rules now. Hope a Colt Match Target HBAR will work. Have to get an Undude AR sling I reckon. Someone that knows what they are doing needs to find me a reasonably priced Garand that I can play, not necessarily compete with. I know that is a broad and probably unheard of thing concerning reasonably priced.

Time to train, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 15:41:56 (ZULU)

Next year will be a busy one in Canada.  We will be shooting the F Class World Championship, immediately following the Grand Aggregate.

That's twelve days of hard going competition if you also shoot the Long Range Challenge and Grand agg.

There are to be team shoots along with individual in the FCWC.  Not completely sure without going to the DCRA site, but methinks it will be four and eight man teams.  At this time there are teams signed from Canada, Germany, U.K., South Africa, and Australia.  The U.S. will have teams, but direct USNRA backing is up in the air at this time.  This will be tough LR competition and making the main US team will be quite a challenge.

For those not into border crossings, there will be competitions in the States that allow F Class.  One of the hotbeds is The Rocky Mountain Palma Matches at Raton.  I've also heard that Camp Butner may be a gathering point in early summer '02.

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Greenup, IL, USA - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 15:44:00 (ZULU)

They have SAS looking for him.  Their operational doctrine is, when clearing a building (or cave), to shoot - rather than turn your back -  on all BGs.  No exception is made if the BG drops his weapon and surrenders.  That doctrine caused a minor stink when they cleared an embassy in the mid '80s.  SAS was cheerfully unapologetic.

If I were "His Mama been 'ho'ein'", news that the Brits were coming in would cause me no comfort.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 17:05:25 (ZULU)

Lito, I was thinking the same thing about the 48 and 47.5 grains under the 175s that Rex was talking aboput. I too would like to see how that's done unless he's using a 30-06 and the 175s. Rex what's the secret?

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 17:37:12 (ZULU)

Well, I started with around 43 grains and after fire forming the brass it just fit.  Maybe the Blaser's chamber is a tad bigger than SAAMI?  I just poured powder into Winchester brass that I'd fired in the Blaser.  About 51 grains of Varget to the mouth (no mound lol) of the case.  47.5 grains goes to just under the neck, and I use a little arbor press and some Wilson bullet seating dies.  I didn't happen to have any unloaded Lapua 308 brass, but as soon as I do I measure again.  Looking at the loaded cases + bullets alongside a 175SMK I think there's only slight of powder compression.  I have about 2 to 3 thousands (off the top of my head) for tension and after time the seating depth hasn't changed (ie. powder isn't pushing on the bullet).

As to Fed primers ... I just used some and they worked so I stuck with them.  They flatten a bit, but no blown primers.

I'm curious as to the actual numbers regarding strength, too.  Wondering how they tested the Rem action to take 100,000 lbs (setup etc.) although it doesn't seem unreasonable.  Back in college we were destructively testing lots of different materials and a 3/8" diameter 4340 widget that we heat treated took 14,000 lbs. before separation.

8% of 100,000 pounds =? ~80,000 PSI?  Is this based on the area of the back of the 308 case ...?  Sorry, should break out the ol textbooks.

Don't think there is actually any 'new stuff' ... more likely the chamber dimensions are too large?

Rex<--- another inquiring mind

Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 19:37:11 (ZULU)

If I heard the British were comin I wouldnt be to concerned, however if I heard the British SAS were comin I think I would be thinkin about what I would be goin to tell Allah in the very near future.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 19:42:05 (ZULU)

The Rem en-ga-neer used a hydralic press threaded into an action, and ram tested the bolt... did it on a bunch or them and related the lowest figure of the lot that caused the lugs to not return to original dimensions... this figure is consistant with other manufactures of modern bolt guns.  Bolt actions (and modern gas actions) are NOT going to "blow up"... even from over loads.  It's the case web and primer that fail from excessive pressure, and then the expanding gases tear everything else (the stock, and magazine box. and other things) apart.

And yup... the 8% amd 5% are based on the psi, and internal area of the base of the .308 (1/10").  Even "hot" loads hit the bolt face with about 5% of it's limits.  You can NOT wear out a bolt action with hot loads.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 20:18:46 (ZULU)

Anybody else out there hand loading with Black Hills brass??  If so, could ya weigh a couple fired, decapped cases and let me know what the weights are coming in at.  I have a bunch that are very consistent, but all come in around 157gr +/- .5gr.  That seems light..  I was looking for the post from about two weeks ago, but they haven't been archived yet.

I appreciate any help.  Thanks and take care,

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 20:19:41 (ZULU)

Is ~60,000 PSI ok in regards to the brass?  The cases aren't getting banged up according to the mic.

Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 20:46:41 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 21:25:34 (ZULU)

I spent all morning today making pork chops out of Mr Pigs. arranged to be late for work tonight so I could go huntin again,(damn cold out tonight), saw some great deer, 6 very nice Fallow deer bucks(trigger finger was itchin'), some does and some calves, a roe deer, but the piggies hadn't shown by the time I had to come to work, I got a knight and hale wild pig call, every time I used it Fallow deer came a running toward me, maybe I should get me a Fallow deer call and then maybe call some pigs.You got a box of Lapua 180gr megas of mine?, I can't find em any where and these 150 gr's I got from Richard just don't cut it, everything runs when hit by em.

Can you get a couple of days around the last Jan weekend? or are you on a tight schedule at the cop academy? Dietrich sends his regards, and we'll save you some pigs,they are back, acorns all gone!! what are we going to do about a hunting rifle for you? did you find anything interesting in the gun shops? catch you later. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 22:43:37 (ZULU)

Thanks

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 22:50:19 (ZULU)

On knives..Hard to beat Randalls IMHO.  My most used is a Model 15  Airman; a small version of the Model 14..My hunter is the Nordic special, a 31/2" drop point which is the proprietary Randall of Nordic Knives of Solvang, Ca..It's about perfect for most  game up to whitetail size...It will work up more than one deer without a touch up and sharpens easily when needed..For folders, my everyday carry knife is a Spyderco Wegner.

Somewhere I read that every serious rifleman should have a quality 22 rimfire rifle..I have {or had;since my son seems to have claimed it] a Savage Anschutz 164.  Feeling the need for a replacement, I recently picked up an old Kimber 82 Classic that was built in 1982 but is just like new.  Interestingly, it seems to shoot good old generic Winchester 37gr. hollowpoints as well as most of the match grade ammo I've been testing in it..Over the years{probably about 40} I've found this 22 ammo to give, generally, the best all around performance in a variety of both rifles and handguns and thus buy it in volume whenever I see case lots on sale..Obviously, some rimfires will show a decided preference for one brand of ammo, but this old standby Winchester load seems to perform consistantly well in a large variety of weapons..Comments??????

Ken Hunter...Drawing date?????

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 23:13:03 (ZULU)

Tough shit.

This also says that Walker is providing intel to the Marines.  That sounds a little fishy.  He was at Mazir-e-Sharif.  They are down by Kandihar.  Well, whatever...

Check out the links at the bottom of the same page.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011209/ts/attack_dc_1014.html

This report says we're stalled.  If so, its temporary.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$WGQMFXAAACIGDQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/10/war110.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/10/ixhome.html

These reports contradict themselves and each other.  Its hard to tell what's really going on.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 23:51:29 (ZULU)

Finished clean up from our full auto shoot this morning. Now, I'M recovered!

Variable Scopes: I have both and they both have thier place. My Chandler 6.5 x .284 wears a Luppie Vari-X III M1 3.5 to 10X. My M40A1 clone has a Luppie M1 10X, and my M25 wears a Luppie M1 6X. ALL have mil-dot reticles. All have thier place...

If I were to pick one for use, I'd go 10X (for military), and 3.5 X 10X Vari-X III M1 for police work.

If forced to have one for both I'd go with  my 6X M1. It may just be the best of both worlds. Luckily, we have choices...ain't life grand!

Wildlife Sanctuaries: Kinda nice in some ways... A pain in the ass when the deer, elk, and turkeys want to wander across the range causing a cease fire...on the other hand they are regal and have to leave the range sometime...;-)

Bill Wylde on "F" class: Haven't been shooting it much, as I have access to a 600 yard range, just six miles from the house. I have made up my mind to start this next season. Mostly, I just work out with Police and Military Sniper friends and impromptu competitions. Lot's of fun, but darn few trophies. Good memories will suffice. Think the comraderie is what I enjoy the most. Like the members of this list...

"Lito: The Remington LTR wears a slim pistol grip stock and a slim forend, but does remind me a little of the Winchester "Marksman" style stock. Looks to be an H-S Precision offering, but I couldn't see a makers mark or see an aluminum bedding block. I'm thinking one of these, threaded for on of Phil Dater's (Gemtech) TPRS suppressors, and my Luppie M1 6X would be STELLAR! That just might be the ultimate suppressed/unsupressed Police Sniper Rifle out there! Comments...?

Question: Why don't we see more police use of suppressors? The technology/accuracy are there and are proven. No need for stealth? How about bad guys dropping for no apparent reason? Talk about shock effect on their surviving compadres...plus you don't give yourself away? Mike Miller and other police marksmen...you want to chime in on this one...?

Varget Compressed loads, accuracy, and barrel life: For those wishing to put 48.0 grains of Varget into a .308 Lapua case you must be putting it in with a drop tube and vibrator. It's way over maximum published data...DON'T DO IT! Also, want to know what you're smoking and will you share;-)

Your are pushing the envelope and as "lito-san" says, you're probably way over max pressure. I don't like heavily compressed loads, usually they are erratic. Go with a good load that gives you CONSISTENCY and ACCURACY with 168's or 175's, in the 2,600 to 2,700 FPS range, smile and be happy. You'll be  A LOT safer and won't be beating the living crap out of your gear...your barrel life will be better, too. Especially, in the hotter cartidges. The .308 is pretty forgiving in that reguard.

Marco's Visit: To bad you couldn't get to beautiful Oregon. You probably wouldn't have left, at all! In spite of our "problems" it's funny that everyone wants to stay that comes here(ok, most everyone).

Glad you enjoyed the visit and our hospitality.

For those that haven't noticed, Dan Ashcroft gave the legal "finger", to the congress, in his address the other day. Indicating, that they would not confer, with congress, on items that fell solely in the purview of Presidential power. Like the conduct of war, which they approve, but Busch will conduct as "Commander and Chief". Looks like the "A" team is on board. What do we expect? I doubt Collin Powell would have joined anyone else. If he runs for president, one of these days, he gets my vote...hands down. How 'bout four more of Busch and then Powell? That would make these pansey politicians and those in NATO sit up and take notice.

As for NATO. We need to revoke our membership and let them start paying their own bills. Starting with thier operating fees! When they want to start dictating how we, as Americans, will act and what our rights are, we don't need them. Unfortunately, Busch's predecessor signed a lot of decrees, bills, and you name it, that aligns us with those folks. Love to see us go on record as denying that and leaving NATO.

Guess I need to close. I'm getting a bit political and that really doesn't belong here...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 00:06:20 (ZULU)

Specifically- does a clean suppressor vs a dirty suppressor have a different impact point? Cold bore changes, etc.... no takers.

To me- its all about consistent first round accuraccy. If the conditions of the suppressor vary the impact its a no go.

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 00:33:53 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 01:33:54 (ZULU)

I'm currently reloading my .308 rounds on an RL-550B without the automatic powder measure, which means I'm just using an AT-500 with the .308 conversion kit, the automatic primer feeder, and the little bin on the side for catching the rounds (which I actually don't use, since I remove the finished rounds by hand and place them in a cartridge box).  Click on my name below for a link to my brother's online Dillon dealership.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 01:55:16 (ZULU)

I've got a Ques-cheee-on about eye protec-sheee-oon.  I've come to realize my el-cheapo glasses are all scratched and all around f%$#ed up.  I would like to replace them with some high(er) quality ones.  I primarily shoot outdoors in fairly good weather(no rain).  Once in a while I'll go to the indoor pistol range.  I've been looking at the WileyX's and Gargoyles.  What lens color(s) and brands do youse guys use/recommend and why?  

Thanks,

Rich S.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 02:15:29 (ZULU)

Shooting glasses?  My favorites are the military issue with the case.  I get them either in clear or brown shaded for $10 at gun shows.  They are thick, very comfortable, come with a case (Alice clips at that), nose pieces, and a croakie.  

Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 04:12:34 (ZULU)

CDC indicated that Colin Powell "undercut" President Busch. Guess I missed that one. Glad to see he got slapped into line and is one the team. Guess as Chairman of JCS he got used to being the head hog...

Mikt T.: ON SUPRESSORS...

Almost a mystical smoke and mirrors topic with many. I have some experience with them. All my SMG's have a "can" with them. Tactically, it's a sound idea to cut down on noise, muzzle flash/signature, and ability for the enemy to locate you. It does have some drawbacks that are design dependant. Length is one, weight is another. My Gemtech Raptor on my MP-5 adds about 10 OZ and 9" overall length. The MP-5SD is: heavier, lowers the velocity to about .380 ACP levels, and is a pain in the butt. However, seems to be "de rigour" for SWAT Fashion Shows...

For subguns it's a VERY useful too.

Rifle suppressors: LOT's of makers and lots of crap. I stick with a few proven products and guys on the cutting edge. Internals MUST be stainless and it doesn't hurt the outer, either. Leader in design is Gemtech, but there are some others out there. Threaded or quick connect is your choice, but is MUST be coencentric with the bore axis of the "can". Bullets out the side of the can are so professionally embarrasing...

Shift of impact can be a problem, but it's not supressor related, normally. That bullet is long gone unless the can or round is bad. Many makers stuff boatails in subsonic packaging and call it good. One of the major DOD spec ops suppliers uses flat based heavies and his stuff makes the best manufacturers stuff look like floor sweepings by comparison. IF interested, get ahold of me off line and I'll supply details. Will not do that in a public forum.

Shift between suppressor and non supressed can cause accuracy problems, so the gun load needs to be tested. If properly set up it's not normally a problem. Still it does happen.

Bottom line, test your gear, train, and have faith in it...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 04:32:45 (ZULU)

On LE suppressors; at least in my arena; Have had little suggestion from the few LE training/support sources. Have had Entry teams want to know by the sound of rifle fire for timing of entry when we need to do sniper initiated assault.

Have seen much more emphasis on suppressed entry weapons for sake of improved comms inside.

Unfortunately, just another issue too frequently shot down by unwilling admin. Haven't been able to put together a good enough sales pitch.

Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 05:18:46 (ZULU)

I already own a Tikka 300 mag with a B&L elite 3000, and a Savage 243 with a nikon monarch.  I'm trying to get a caliber right in between the two.  Ive been looking into 308, 270, 7mm-08.  I'm looking for something with range and energy when it gets there.  I'll be using it for out of state mule deer(250-300lb class)and large wild boar, with many opportunities for 400+ yard shots.  Any suggestions on the optimal round for that?

Ive also been trying to compare Savages to Rem 700's.  I will probably be changing the stock and putting in a new trigger.  Money aside who do you think makes the better gun?  Anybody know anything about the new Kimber 84m?  I appreciate the help guys.

Just my opinion, hang him for treason. He made his bed, now he can lay in it.  Don't give him a second chance to take more American lives.

Matt <m57gonefishing@hotmail.com>
Clovis, CA, USA - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 06:16:52 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 12:19:00 (ZULU)

A police administrator most likely has never done any of this and it has been a reeeally long time since he has been a street cop, much less a SWAT guy.  Yet, every decision he makes directly affects you while YOU are laying out in the cold on a rifle.  Hmmmmmmmmn, What to buy ?  New car graphics (substitute almost anything here) or Sniper gear ?  Which one you think is gonna win out ?  

Cops don't kill people.  Cops protect people.  Unfortunately, we may have to kill one to protect one.  duh.  What an epiphany.  Common knowledge, probably the way you and most other folks think also.  We're all pretty much duty bound to do just that.

Police administrators though, have a career to look after so WE don't kill nobody.  The bad guy may kill somebody, and if he does that is fine.  JUST AS LONG AS WE DON'T DO IT.  Most will let him shoot hostages until he runs out of bullets and beer and gives up rather than grow a set of nuts and act. SWAT = Sit Wait And Talk.  And, they will sacrifice you in a minute, with cool, detached, self preservation.  Been there, wiped my butt with the t-shirt.  If the SWAT guy grows his own nuts and acts, he better pray to God above that me made the right decision and carried it out absolutely flawlessly.  If it all goes good, admin is the hero. "My superior decision making skills and problem solving really saved the day"  Goes even a little bad and the SWAT guys usually catch the heat. "Wasn't me on the trigger, what's the matter with that guy ? I'da never done that, maybe we need to let him go, is he crazy ? whaddayathink, huh ?. I mean, he's always talking about guns and stuff and carrying that damn rifle around".  

I always relate the SWAT Sniper to the Super Bowl field goal kicker at the end of the game who has one kick to win for his Team or go home a loser for all the world to see.  All by himself.  Makes the kick (shot) and he's the hero.  Misses and he's the loneliest bastard on the planet.  Only, this ain't no game.  Ain't none of this "Oooops, I shot on the wrong target or Oh crap ! did you see where that last one went ? - I think I turned my elevation turret the wrong way or Hmmmmm ? must have pulled that one a little left ! he hee, look ! I hit the hostage, Oh well, I'll do it right next time.  Yeah, oh crap is right hoss and there ain't gonna be no next time.  Life as you knew it is over.

Gooch was probably right. A SWAT Sniper school would probably bore the crap out of you guys. Ain't nothing elite about being liable for every damn thing you do.  

Suppresors ? ON OUR GUNS !!!  Oh My God !  You've got to be kidding me right ?  You SWAT guys are REALLY taking this stuff a little too seriously aren't you ?  Headsets ? So the bad guys can't hear your radio traffic ?, Come on . . . those things are six hundred dollars apiece.  You SWAT guys slay me.  Always wanting something".

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 13:00:46 (ZULU)

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 16:14:57 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19997-2001Dec10.html

The next list of targets.  Its extensive.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011210-99639471.htm

Some notes on why the Marines are doing the Army's job.  I think that most of these issues were addressed in Rumsfeld's defense review. It was completed pre 9/11 and was promptly shot down by Congress and The Services.  Its back in play in a big way.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-owens121001.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 17:11:33 (ZULU)

Thanks in advance,

Fitz.

Fitz. <sfitzgerald@arpac.com>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 18:26:23 (ZULU)

My opinion is that the 550 is the best bang for the buck.

The 650 has the auto case-feeding and auto-indexing, but the auto-indexing for me is almost irrelevent, because indexing the 550 comes completely natural, painless, and takes almost no time once you get your rhythm down.  Plus I like to advance the shellplate manually anyhow, because it makes it easier when you are adjusting dies and such and don't want the shellplate advanced while cycling the press.

Additionally, the 650 with the automatic case feeder is simply bigger, bulkier, and takes up more "space".  I put space in parentheses because the actual physical space isn't really all that large, but mentally I think it's more intrusive, with the case feeder towering over your head.  Plus the case feeder is just one more mechanical thing needing adjusting.

The facts are this.  The 650 costs more and has more things you gotta learn how to adjust and such.  The 650 has 5 stations, the 550 has 4 stations.  That extra station doesn't mean much to me personally, but for some people, it does, and that's a factor to weigh in your decision.  For example, you can put a powder check die on the press, which will make sure you charged a round with powder.  If you do that on a 550 you end up having to seat the bullet with your right hand, and do both bullet seating and whatever crimping you do in one station (Dillon's philosophy is to do seating and crimping in two stages, and Dillon dies are sold that way, sizer/decapper, seater, crimper).  With a 650 and a powder check die you can still do seating and crimping in two stages.  For some folks that's very important.

The 650 will load ammo faster than the 550.  That's a fact.  You can get into a good rhythm with the 550 and crank out a lot of rounds, but you can also get into a good rhythm with a 650 and crank out even more rounds.

In the end, since I'm not made of money, I like the 550.  If the extra money is irrelevent to you and you just want the fastest press, go for the 650.  They are both very nice presses.  If you want to use a powder check die, I recommend the 650.

If you are *only* loading precision rifle rounds, by which I assume you are talking about loading perhaps a few dozen, rather than a few hundred rounds per sitting, I'd recommend going even cheaper than the 550 and getting an AT-500 with a couple upgrades.  I just posted about this press this morning, scroll up if you wish to read my comments.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 18:52:06 (ZULU)

I heard the Dillon presses were a bad choice to use when reloading precision ammo?  I might be wrong but from what I have heard is the progressive loaders tolerances are too low to make match ammo?  I am very interested in getting a reloading press and so any comments are greatly appreciated.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 19:12:40 (ZULU)

I don't shoot benchrest.  Perhaps some of you do, and can comment.  For any kind of shooting most of us on this board are doing, the Dillon is more than capable of loading good, high quality ammo.  I have the feeling that the more anal-retentive benchresters won't use it unless it costs twice as much, and unless they have to lavish personal attention on each and every round as it's made, one at a time, through a whole process which must, by definition, comprise at least ten steps.

I am joking a bit, but in all seriousness, for the kind of shooting I do, and probably 99.9% of the Rosterfarians, the Dillon presses are absolutely the best presses around in terms of usability, functionality, convenience, quality, and the price you pay for the above.

I am sure others can attest to what I said.  I know there are lots of competitive shooters who trust in Dillon to get the job done, though I can't name any names offhand.  That's just from reading comments and whatnot over the years.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
New Hampshire, - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 20:09:39 (ZULU)

I'd just as soon see him accidentally fall outta that helicoptor though.  All this is most likely moot though if the SAS find him, as some have posted previously.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/12/10/ret.hoon.laden/

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
New Hampshire, - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 20:19:21 (ZULU)

I have 2 (a 550, and a 1050) and another (Super 1050)  on the way this winter.  They are fully capable of the best match grade ammo...

... it's the dies that determine the quality of ammo (and Dillon dies AREN'T match grade [they suck]).  If you set up a 550 with Redding BR, or Forster Ultra dies, you will crank out bunches of match grade ammo all day.

The 500, and the 550 are the same press with the same functions... just without some of the niceties like auto powder measure, and primer feed... if you are thinkng of a 500, spend the few extra bucks and do it right the first time... If you don't need the speed of a progressive with powder and primer feeds, then pass on the 500, and get a single station press.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 20:20:18 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-kramer121001.shtml

http://www.nationalreview.com/jos/jos121001.shtml

If we settle for this bin Laden goof, we're sunk.  Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz want to finish 'em all right now.  Powell wants to declare victory.  I'm betting on Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.

We'll see.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 20:23:24 (ZULU)

When you say Dillon dies suck, are you just comparing them to the Redding BR and Forster Ultra dies?  How do you think they compare against standard RCBS and Hornady dies, for example?  I'm curious to know, since I haven't ever been into precision shooting enough to have aquired the equipment to measure things like bullet runout, etc.

So I'll have to defer to Lito on the issue of the match-grade dies.  I do have to say that the Dillon pistol dies have a very, very nice feature for those who shoot lead bullets.  You can remove the bullet seater plug and replace it without having to readjust it.  That's hugely cool for loading cast lead.  The reason?  Cast lead bullets have lubricant on/in them, and this lube inevitably builds up in the bullet seater plug, till you have to remove the seater plug and get it out.  This is a pain.  With the Dillon pistol dies you just remove the plug, clean the lube out, and replace the plug without adjusting anything.  Very nifty.

But I'll be the first to admit that there's a world of difference in the precision required to load long-range rifle ammo, and to load fairly short range pistol ammo.  The pistol ammo doesn't have to be nearly so precise.

Obviously, Lito and I will disagree on the merits of the AT-500.  I personally think it's a good choice for someone doing almost entirely rifle ammo.  I think it's a way better choice than going single-stage.  Ugh.

Lito, when you load your .308 ammo, do you use the Dillon automatic powder measure in your 550, or do you use an external powder measure and trickle your loads, and then dump them in the powder die by hand?  (like you would with an AT-500)  I'm curious, because my experiments with IMR 4064 and Varget in the Dillon powder measure showed I couldn't consistently drop a charge with better than around .5 grain accuracy.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
New Hampshire, - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 21:05:42 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"You must make a friend of the face of horror, or it will surely be your enemy." - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 21:31:58 (ZULU)

On the Rl 550, I don't think that there is a better press for the avg shooter to build ammo on. Just my opinion, but it's user friendly and will do whatever you want.

When I load 300 win mag hunting rounds on it, I do so one round at a time. It's still progressive and way fast, but I like to look at all the steps of each station. As far as .308 or .223 goes, lube them up and start pulling.

On throwing powder, The AMU guys I know that use the 550 recommended the Dillon Magnum charge bar for the auto measure. Apparently the hopper is cut square instead of into a trapezoid(house shaped) and allows the bar to cut powder more effeciently. Dillon confirmed it and recommended using it in place of standard powder bars on applications that will allow(ie minimum charge weight).

For all new(old for that matter too) reloaders, reloading is a very enjoyable way to get more out of your shooting time. However,you still have to pay attention to detail to be safe. Don't do any thing any one suggests until you see it in black and white(always check loads for powders with the right manual) and if you aren't 100% sure what it is( powder type/ primers throw them away. Large rifle/pistol primers may be the same size, but they work way different. I still chuckle when I recall the story of a guy stuffing 40 some odd grains of "BULLSEYE" into a 7.62 round. Take your time and do it right.

Chief <dwightc11@home.com>
USA - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 22:04:57 (ZULU)

Cripes, Brian! Can I keep a copy of the last post, have it bronzed, at least show it to the wife, next time I screw up? This suppressor stuff is just common sense and training issues. Much can be explained to administrators. Although, in all fairness, they do have other priorities they worry about. Finance and public stature amongst them.

Problem is THEY are not risk takers and never will be...why, because if they could "do it" they would. Some fall into the jealous "wannabee" category. In fairness to some of them I've seen some units get pretty "out there" if allowed to run wild.

Put in for a job today as Training Coordinator with the State Department of Public Safety...wish me luck. We'd be responsible for training of all the public sector(ie; cops and security personnel).

All for now. Gotta go get ice...your post gave me a swelled head, Brian...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 22:08:17 (ZULU)

TBD... >"When you say Dillon dies suck, are you just comparing them to the Redding BR and Forster Ultra dies?  How do you think they compare against standard RCBS and Hornady dies, for example?"<

No... I just mentioned the Forster and Redding dies, because the question came up about match ammo.

The Dillon dies are not up to RCBS standards (and RCBS isn't the top of the heap either).

The 9mm dies leave the loaded round looking like a Coke Bottle, because it sizes too much.  I called them, and told them I couldn't sell ammo that had a "corset" on it, and they said that they wanted it that way, and if I wanted the case walls to be straight, I should get another brand of die (guess what I did)

They were very clear that they wanted it that way??? and won't "fix it".  My 9mm from RCBS and Redding sizers look like factory ammo.

The seater dies for many pistol calibers have NO support, or alignment for the bullet... the bullet never touches the die walls for allignment... Phooie!  If you are loading lead bullets, you are making blasting ammo, and not precession ammo.

And don't knock the single station press... you haven't lived until you have tried to full length size 2000 military cases on a progressive press at the same time as you are loading :(((

I currently load .308 on a Hornady L&L auto progressive (5 stations).  This winter, when the Super 1050 comes in, I will set that up for .308, and the Hornady will go to something else.

For powder measures on the Hornadys, the 550, and 1050, I use the Hornady measure, with the auto-parallele thing... with 308 loads, it holds +/- .1 gr with Varget (I don't use 4064)... The Dillon measure is OK for pistol, but not rifle powders.

Keep in mind that Benchrest shooters throw their powder loads... they don't trickle them.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 22:44:29 (ZULU)

I have seen (and felt) the effects of 46 grains of 231 behind a 150 grain bullet fired in an M1 Garand. The M1 was blown to bits and the guy to the right of the shooter ended up getting hit with large pieces of the stock.

The shooter would have lost an eye if not for his shooting glasses, there was a deep gouge in the lens from something that blew off.

There were some deep gouges in his hands and arms also.

I was about 10-12 feet to the right when it happened lying prone and it felt like some had let off a thunderflash next to me.

This was a classic case of "Why can't I just use the same powder in my pistol and rifle?".

The worst part was that the ammo had not been loaded by the shooter who got hurt and whose rifle got blown up.

Sniff

Sniff <akh805@actrix.co.nz>
Auckland, New Zealand - Monday, December 10, 2001, at 22:54:44 (ZULU)

Small world as I think the exact same guy you are referring to just came through a class out this ways. He brought lots of his own ammo- match subsonic naturally. Great stuff. Lots of mil sales to certain orgs.

Spend a few nights tipping back a few with him. Darn nice gent. He is one of those who planted the evil idea in my head. But, the ammo to me wasn't the factor. His ammo proved that beyond doubt. The suppressor's repeatability whether hot, cold, clean or dirty is.

Gemtech appears to be good-what about AWC? The thundertrap specifically? Thanks for any experinces to all who can share with the suppressors.

Brian- the suppressor owned by the cop both you and I know has definate cold vs dirty issues. Not for me....

BTW- going to Miami gringo?

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
- Monday, December 10, 2001, at 23:03:26 (ZULU)

Dillon 500 or 550?

I shoot only Blackhills 175 grn now.  With the Redding competition dies and the dillon press will I be able to make handloads as good as the factory blackhills 175's?  Or will the accuracy be better than factory match loads (assuming I am using quality brass, etc)?

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 00:05:37 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just had a post from a friend that had a rifle built by Jim Ryan at Tac-Ord, in Idaho. Upon test firing the the case darn near separated and was egg shaped(out of round).010. SCAREY!

Problem is that Tac-Ord has built some good stuff..., but I'm getting rumblings of inconsistency. When it's good it's very good and when it's bad...well, you get the picture. Plus it took 18 months and cost twice what was quoted...:-(

Stick with the proven: George Gardner, Jerry Rice, Iron Brigade Armory ALL have sterling reputations. Can't go wrong with any of them.

Tac-Ord surpessors. Basically, Gemtech designs poorly made. Ryan worked for Phil Dater and there was a falling out. Make what you want out of it. Gemtech's products work "as advertised" and are quieter, to boot. Plus Phil STANDS BEHIND his products.

Mike T.,

The gent you were talking about hail from Smithville, TX? Name: Whit Exxxx? A real prince and a gentleman. Produces the best damn subsonic I've ever used. I'm lucky to count him has a personal friend.

Appreciate your posts, gents...when we gonna get some ladies back on the list. You swine are probably scarin'em away with your crude ways and funny "gun stuff" talk...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes

(Subsonics ain't about submarines!)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, Oregon(By Gawd!), USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 00:22:52 (ZULU)

Thanks for posting the frequent sitreps.

Re TNR's story on why the Marines are in Afghanistan and not the Army.  Great article, and I am a former Army tanker who served in the Gulf.  The Army's continued reliance on heavy forces has stunned me, given the threat posture.  I think it was obvious to everyone in the Gulf up to the rank of colonel, but not above, how impossible it was to support a heavy armored force even in the 'perfect' conditions of that war (stupid adversary, unlimited time to move our forces into theater, friendly host country, etc.).  Even after all that we could not keep our forces supplied with maintenance parts and fuel after the ground war started.  For 4 days we were constantly about to run out of gas.  The Army is too heavy - too many clerks and jerks, too much crap, too many hanger queen weapons systems.  And then you depend on another service to get you there.

I loved my M1A1 but even as a 1LT realized it was totally unsuitable for likely conflicts around the world.  As an aside glad to see the Marines and Army adopted the M240G, was amazed how simple, reliable, and light they were compared to the M60.

Great Frontline segment on the whole issue and the challenges facing Gen. Shinseki, Secretary Rumsfeld, and all those trying to fight the military-industrial-Congressional complex.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/future/

Also highly recommend the writings of Ralph Peters, especially his collected essays in "Fighting for the Future: Will America Triumph?"  The man was very prescient.

I sent the editors of TNR an analysis I did using info I got off the web to respond to their rather ignorant editorial on the eve of the fall of Mazar-i-Sharif, where they advocated use of large numbers of ground troops.  The analysis I did showed that it would take the entire Air Force C5/C117/C141 fleet of 320 aircraft to lift the weight of the 82d Airborne Division (not sure about the footprint though).  You could probably not get half those aircraft available at any one time anyway, due to maintenance downtime and other vital commitments.  And then you would run out of refuelling assets trying to get them to Afghanistan.  So the Air Force cannot even move one half of one of the Army's lightest divisions (10 total) at one shot, not to mention resupplying it.  Amateurs debate tactics, professionals talk logistics, as they say.

I love the eloquence of the numbers I have read about snipers: 1 kill for every 1.3 rounds, versus 1 for every 200,000 rounds expended by the average soldier.  We need 'sniper' soldiers, weapons systems, and most importantly, a 'sniper' mentality among the leadership, especially in the Army.

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 00:49:35 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$XFAGY0IAADX3JQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/11/wafg11.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/11/ixhome.html

"Arabs think they have been left to die at Tora Bora."

They're right.  

"Some al-Qa'eda fightershave become extremely demoralised in the last couple of days."  

No shit.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$XFDZXCIAADYB1QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/11/wafg211.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/11/ixhome.html

Anyone who thinks we're winding down the war should check this out.  So far we've only checked zeros.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$XFDZXCIAADYB1QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/11/wafg211.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/11/ixhome.html

Wonders await.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 01:35:07 (ZULU)

Reloading Press?

I was planning on getting the sinclair arbor press with wilson dies, will this combination be noticably more accurate than a dillon 500 or 550 with redding competition dies?  Also can I use the sinclair arbor press for 300 win mag, and 338 lapua?

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 01:50:45 (ZULU)

Thanks in advance.

Keith <keith37f20@excite.com>
WV, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 01:59:35 (ZULU)

Add my voice to the chorus recommending George Gardner. I had him mount a fluted Mike Rock 5R barrel on my PSS, re-bed, true-up the action, install a speed bolt knob, and teflon coat the works and it turned out just spectacular! I hit the range yesterday to shoot some five-round groups and cut an honest .6MOA average at 200 yards with Black Hills 175 gr Match ammo. For me, that's not bad...especially considering that I haven't shot for groups in just over three months. Damn near every group had three that went in one eeedy-beeeety hole, and I know the only reason why they didn't all go in there is because I ain't that good yet. Guess I'll have to actually develop some shooting skill now...life is hard.

Big thank you to George for a job well done! You WILL get more business from me.

Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, Tx, Baby! - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 02:23:34 (ZULU)

Much more on the widening war.  I think Osama misjudged his man.  Dubya's pissed.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$XGGNULAAADZUVQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/11/war11.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/11/ixhome.html

"When a Texan fancies he'll take his chances, chances will be taken."__"London Homesick Blues" by  Ray Wiley Hubbard,

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 02:31:03 (ZULU)

GPS: I have had real good luck with my Garmin GPS12. It's a 12 channel receiver - which means it can see up to 12 birds at the same time. Of course - the more birds you can see - the more accurate your position is.

I have seen it report EPE (estimated position error) as low as 9 feet. This is of course since DOD has allowed them to turn off the selective acces in the satellite constellation. Prior to the disablement of selective access - it used to report in the neighborhood of 60 feet EPE.

The Major got this for me back in '98. I have been able to upgrade the firmware in it from the Garmin website. I have to say I'm quite happy with it.

Semper Fi,

Ken :)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 02:34:59 (ZULU)

  Some points about mounting a suppressor.  Wes was absolutely correct.  The threading must be concentric with the bore not the od of the barrel.  This is the number one problem we see.  The threads not cut to specification are another.  we just fixed a new high speed rifle for a customer because the custom builder totally screwed the threading job up. We have looked at the various mounting system available  but have not seen one that offers the repeatability and durability of correctly done threads and shoulder.  

  in a non-wipe can, nothing touching the barrel, a dirty can should not affect accuracy.  I cannot speak for all builders only ours.  As far as changing point of aim with and without.  There are several factors to consider.  First, some suppressor will boost the velocity of the ammo.  This is called freebore boost.  It is consistent as long as the same ammo is used.  The second is the weight of the suppressor on the end of the barrel.  28-40 ounces hanging from the endof a barrel can cause barrel sag.  this depends on length, stiffness and stock bedding. The weight also changes the harmonics of the barrel.  This causes impact shift. This is also consistent.  We have found on a properly designed rifle system. You can shoot the rifle with the suppressor on, remove it fully and reinstall it,reshoot the rifle and the groups have shifted no more than .25MOA.

 I do not claim to have all the answers but I will try to answer any question you may have.  Thanks for reading this rather long post

Scott

Scott Prince <Scottmp@augusta.com>
Augusta, GA, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 03:20:51 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22725-2001Dec10.html

William M. <elmerfudd3000@yahoo.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 03:39:18 (ZULU)

The SAS will do the job, my guess is that if our blokes find bin Laden they will blow his ass away,(then write a book about it, get rich and retire) Just my thoughts from one Limey on another. Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 04:03:28 (ZULU)

-

Keith... Magellian has slipped.  Garmin is the leader of the pack!

-

Nicholas Young... >"sinclair arbor press with wilson dies, will this combination be noticably more accurate than a dillon 500 or 550 with redding competition dies? "<

NO!  Get the Redding dies and a good press, unless you have lots of time on your hands and don't shoot very much.

-

Speaking of which, this past Friday, I shot my smallest group ever (and from a NON benchrest riffle!)... 0.08" (witnessed) from a Winchester M70 Sharpshooter (1st model), and Hornady V-Max bullets... Redding dies on a 30 pound brute force press that would give a BR guy a heart attack ;))

Then somebody shot my chronograph :(((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 04:05:16 (ZULU)

Peter:  Blair is trying to back away from the next stage.  The Bush people are holding private talks with the Tories.  That's unprecedented.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 04:10:02 (ZULU)

Also for .30cals they make both an add on threaded and an integral barrel.  

When the SR-25 QD suppressor clears the border I'll will give you my thoughts on it.

Kevin of the Great White North <cantac@shaw.ca>
Canada - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 05:33:21 (ZULU)

No, I don't know how you get a barrel/chamber THAT out of round. Not sure I want to, either! Think I can go in business with my Black & Decker! Perhaps we can develop a new accuracy aid...square chambers?

Helps index the brass headstamp the same every time? Who knows...

Remember the lad with the bolt face problem...seems he may have had a legitimate gripe, after all. Lad had NO STYLE, however. Glad all my ordinance is 100%. You pay for good work...that's what you should get.

Raining here. Would like a break this next weekend for some serious rifle time. Guess I can always work evenings on my project rifle stock or hang a lantern over the targets at 600...

Late, all for now. Large White Shepherd just came in and gave me the big sigh. She's a permanent fixture in my office. Cat, too, when he's not napping or they're not playing. What a pair.

'Night all,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 06:59:17 (ZULU)

Good article in this months Rifle shooter on Howa rifles, and one from Major Plaster on bipods/ their use and improvisation.

Brugger and Thomet moderators are supposed to be high quality, Ive seen several test reports here and some are in use by LE and SF.

Pete.

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 09:57:54 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 10:04:56 (ZULU)

It seems that some US 3-position 300m match-shooters are going from Jewell triggers to Anschutz 5018 on their Rem M700 actions. They use an adaptor from Briley to make the Anschutz-trigger fit the M700. Has anyone on this forum tried this? I have a spare Anschutz trigger in the safe.

http://www.benchrest.com/rimfire_board/index.cgi?read=51194

http://www.benchrest.com/rimfire_board/index.cgi?read=51248

TorF

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 10:45:52 (ZULU)

Wes...

>"square chambers?  Helps index the brass headstamp the same every time? Who knows..."<

Are you long enuff in the tooth, to remember "Trounds", and the "Dardick pistol/revolver" ???

A revolver that was feed from a magazine like an auto pistol, and shot triangular cartridges.

Didn't do to well (along with the Gyrojet)... those were the days.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 11:07:38 (ZULU)

That SOB Paul Tonks is our own "slugboy."  Several here, including myself, have received emails from "him" with an attachment WHICH YOU SHOULD NOT OPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!

Slugboy is not the culprit, his PC is infected with a virus that is using his address book to send out bad jujus.

I sent slugboy a email telling him to clean up his pc.

If you check the email "he" sent you, you will find the address most likely looks like this:  _slugboy.something or other.com.  The "_" before his name is a giveaway that it's a virus sending you love letters.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 12:09:24 (ZULU)

Paul Tonks is aka "Slugboy" and he (rather his computer) has been sending virus laiden mails for quite some time now, i received a few of him aswell, but i got a gut feeling that slugboy is not at home and that someone else (familymember) is using his computer, which probably is infected and sending virusses automaticly towards all the e-mails in his outlook adres book......

By the way, got some nice stuff from Chandler, like a budpack which has been modified to be used as a snipershooting-platform,a Harris swivel bipod, an Eagle universal cheekpiece and an Eagle scope and muzzle cover and from allison tool i bought a few pathfinders (they were expensive to get over here, damn), they are really handy, with in a second you can see all your come-ups, hold-overs and wind or moving targets leads and it does not block your vieuw, it just sits conveniantly on top of your scope, anywhere you got room for it. If you want i can bring 1 along for you, but the price is steep, 80 dm for a piece of plastic and metal.

Some long range stuff, me and my mates are gonna try some new (for us) handloading data we got from a german fella who is getting really good results with it up to 1000 meters; 155 grain Lapua scenars, Lapua cases, federall 210 primers, 49 grain of Vithavuaori N150.....Might be a to light bullet for sniping purposes but for long range target shooting it will give a very flat trajectory. We just bought 1000 155 grains scenars and will give it a try for a couple of weeks.

Marco.

Train hard, fight easy...(yeah wright, fight will still be hard but one might get lucky and survive, train easy and death is a sure thing)

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 12:24:05 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22763-2001Dec10.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 12:24:36 (ZULU)

Yes, I DO remember the Dardick Pistol and "trounds". Seems to me the developers went all the way to 20MM or so with this, as a way to store/feed maximum ammo for aircraft cannon, too.

Darn, one of those, a Gyro-jet, and my Bren 10 and I'd have the boo-boos of history for my collection! Did we miss any?

Now we know why Bond stuck with his Walther...

Semper fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 12:30:03 (ZULU)

SUPPRESSORS:  We do have 2 MP5SDs. They are okay I guess, for what we do. When we get to spend money here, it's usually an "end of the year, we got money left and need to spend it quick" kind of deal.  Not much time for T & E.  I like to T & E guns/gear but my environment is not conducive to it.  But then, I never was a door kicker.  

WES:  Sorry to rant bro, you kinda hit a nerve.  My SWAT Lt. went on vacation and left a bid proposal for new bone mics for my people typed on white paper (bids have to be done on gold paper - who knew ?).  Right after reading your suppressor post, my Major walked into my office ranting because the bid was submitted on WHITE paper instead of GOLD paper !  Hell, I ain't getting paid enough or got the rank to make money spending decisions but he felt the need to go off on me.  The conversation went something like this:

Sain, I'm f*&^in' pissed !  Bids have to be done on GOLD paper, NOT WHITE PAPER ! Doesn't he know that City council has to have those done on GOLD paper to flag it as something they actually need to look at ?  Now I have to redo it on GOLD PAPER because he did it on WHITE PAPER and I have 20 minutes to do it in.  Maybe we just won't get the damn things !  I replied - "Fine sir, I've only submitted the bid seven times and some Admin mo&*$!@#$%er keeps shelving it. All I do is update the prices and change the date for the LT., year to year.  We've only needed the damn things for seven years.  Somebody always finds a reason to shelve it. Staus quo sir. Maybe I'll just get my little sister's cheerleading megaphone from high school and just yell to the guys when somebody points a pistol at 'em.  That oughta be inside your budget or do you want me to retype it ? "    "No dammit, I'll handle it".  He stormed off.  Got word today the bid got approved.

Gold paper, white paper.  Geez.

He hee.  Fellas, I am a swat sniper whore.  An insubordinate whore but a whore nevertheless.

Watch your six,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 13:56:47 (ZULU)

'Lito's right about the Dillon presses- there have been world championships won by ammo loaded on those presses.

They didn't say which dies though.  I was being cost consious when I bought .308 dies and bought the Dillon dies, case gauge and Lyman lock nuts so I could use the dies in an old Spartan press.  After carefully reading the directions for setup, the initial ammo had runouts less than 0.003", much of it in the 1 mil range.  At this point I quit checking it.  Rifle will burn it into 1/2 MOA any day that I watch my fundamentals, 1/4 if I'm living right.  Maybe I should go sacrifice a goat or something.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 14:16:33 (ZULU)

The hell with gold paper... if you want them to see the bids, just pencil them in on the borders of a "Snap-On" calendar... they'll see it from 100 feet away.  Probably take it home too! ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 14:21:03 (ZULU)

WR Moore... Sorry Dude, but I WILL disagree with you on this one.  You have to have used the Dillon 9mm die to know the problem, and to comment on it...

The coke bottle look from Dillon 9mm dies is NOT from mis adjustment.  The Dillon 9mm Carbide dies have little (if ANY) taper, and do NOT match the contour of the factory case... Dillon does this on purpose (they say)... "So there will be lotsa space for tight chambers in comp guns" (HA! as Pat would say)

Making a tapered Carbide die is VERY expensive... for straight walled cases, just a thin ring of carbide is used and it does the whole case... but for tapered case like the 9mm... the carbide piece is the full length of the case, plus the tooling it for taper is very costly (a lotta pieces don't pass inspection)... look at the prices for RCBS carbide sizing dies for .357, and 9mmLuger, and you will see what I mean... Dillon took the cheap way out.  They shoot fine, but look like shit!

My RCBS Carbide die, and my Redding TiCarbide die will both give perfect cases when the die is down to the shell holder... I still have that crappy 9mm Dillon die, sitting in a box on a shelf!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 14:36:55 (ZULU)

Did you really think you could spout off about gold paper vs. white paper and not get it back?

When will you guys learn it has nothing to do with the bid doc, it has to do with the pre-sell...

Find yourself a lawyer that has the ear of the committee, mayor, whom-ever makes the purchase decisions... find a way to make this lawyer your friend (access to the SWAT range to play shoot em up, whatever),,,,make him an honorary SWAT advisor, complete with $25 black jacket emblazoned in gold with the words "SWAT Supporter"....

Now, about a month before your gold paper is due to show up for review, have your buddy causally chat about the subject with the decision maker...

Hey, did you hear the joke about the SWAT guys?  Seems they've been asking for bone mikes so they can keep their hands on the trigger while talking to each other... seems the Police administration (Chief, Major, whatever) has held it up from you for like 7 years now... I pity that police administrator when one of those SWAT guys gets shot because his "mike" gave him away.... that will be an ugly lawsuit...

The purchase decision maker checks the records and realizes HE has cut it 7 years in a row and the PD administrator has been taking the heat for him (or so it appears)....

Everyone is a winner....the PD administrator (major, chief, whatever) gets credit for being a team player with the Mayor... and you guys get your equipment...

C'mon... too easy.

If the rules won't let you win.................CHEAT.

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 15:02:14 (ZULU)

I got some wind that your friend that got the Tac-Ord riffle with the egg shapped chamber, was because he sent the "pre-chambered" barrel to Tac-Ord in the fust place to be fitted to the action.

Is that true?? IF so, it's not fair to beat up on Tac-Ord for that!! and I'll withdraw my hand drill comment!

Please check this out and post it. Fair is Fair... but half truths are bad Juju

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 15:28:22 (ZULU)

Laughing my ass off.  Thought I was in my Captains office as I read that. "Make photo copies of the original. I can't read the carbonless pages 2, 3 and 4."  "Damn it Deputy, Records gets the Canary, Detentions gets the Goldenrod."  "You used 'Whiteout' on the pink copy, use 'Pinkout' next time." "I didn't ask your opinion, JFD - Just Fuggin Doit." or "Who told you to submit anything?  That becomes a matter of public record!"   "I give you guys all this stuff and you Bitch about something else"  "What do you mean it won't work in XX application? Why didn't somebody tell me?"

Ever respond to a memo of notice of insubordination with a "Rebuttal" memo?  Woo, that gets the dander up.  :)

Barney Miller was right on target.

Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 15:30:20 (ZULU)

Yo'Mama <biggun762@hotmail.com>
Meridian, ID, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 16:32:00 (ZULU)

It's actually HARD to make an egg shapped chamber, cuz the reamer will start to chatter and make a hell of a racket!!... so this inquiring mind wants to know...

... what exactly is "visibly out of round brass"??

What does it look like... I mean 0.01" on a .5" piece of brass is damn small, and I have good eyes, and look at brass every day of my life (including Sundays!).

How do you know it is out of round, and have you had a chamber cast done?

Haven't you been here before, under a different name, and didn't Ken Hunter throw you off this site??  If I'm wrong, I appoligize, but this is sounding awfully familiar...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 16:49:56 (ZULU)

'Lito had posted that it's possible my friend, with the Tac-Ord egg shaped chamber, may have supplied a short/prechambered barrel to them

I HAVE sent him a post to confirm this...am waiting for his reply.

One thing, I will not question his answer. With Whit, it's total honesty all the way. They don't come any better. He's a friend and a man to "ride the river with", as we say.

Brian, understand your procurement woes and didn't mean to touch a nerve. Glad you got your procurement through this time. Could it be those block head administrators though you guys were talking a bout a different "bone"?...;-)

Gents, this list is read by a lot of folks. What I publish here is always true given the data I have...if it turns out I have bad dope I will gladly(and rapidly)retract and correct the statments. Honesty and integrity are a must on these type forums.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 17:06:36 (ZULU)

A little while back Sinister Dave posted this link:

http://www.arizona.rifleshooting.com/spirit02.html

Go there and read it!

Lots & lots of long range shooting.

Who's up for it????

How about a team?

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 17:09:38 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just had a post from Whit Engel. The egg shaped chamber was "pre-chambered" by Douglas Rifled Barrels...NOT TAC-ORD.

TAC-ORD probably should have test fired the weapon, but IS NOT repsonsible for the chamber problem.

My apologies to Jim Ryan. When you're told a rifle was built by a firm you normally think that includes barreling and chambering services.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 17:30:11 (ZULU)

I will talk to Jim about this, and see if he wants to comment. (Wes... tell Whit to pay the bill!  It's still outsatnding).

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 17:32:54 (ZULU)

Sorry Paul <biggun762@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 17:40:25 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-owens121101.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 18:24:20 (ZULU)

OK, you little shit...you're Chase Meachum's brother and you were thrown off this site (along with Chase, and a friend) last spring, by Ken Hunter, and told to get lost, and don't come back...

A little truth... your friend with the 22.250 Ackley, did NOT have poor chambers... he was improperly loading his gun, and when he talked to Tac-Ord, and found out what he did wrong, he corrected it, and was doing fine, and this is all been posted in the archives... go look it up!

The Ross floorplate... at the owners request, it was installed into a stock that wasn't designed to take it, and that's why it didn't match up... after the fact, the owner tried to make it right (with a FILE!)... very badd, and very stupid.

And if you didn't measure the brass, and it's not your gun, and you don't know how to check brass... you have no business slamming anyone... especially after the fiasco you and your brother caused here last spring, and that you were thrown off the site for... so NO, your opinion doesn't count.

Also... Tac-Ord doesn't have a "rap sheet" with the business bureau... they have one complaint... from your brother, who made it AFTER his issues were resolved to his satisfaction.

So... hit the bricks, Chicken shit.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 18:37:33 (ZULU)

Ouch <biggun762@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 18:51:00 (ZULU)

"Tac-Ord also makes this commitment to all of our customers, both

large and small, " If at any time the customer is not happy with a product or a service, Tac-Ord will make it right to the customer's satisfaction ." This may seem like a bold statement, but a lost customer is a more expensive loss to us than replacement parts and time spent on service. At no time will Tac-Ord try to pawn the blame for a failed product onto another company. If for some reason another product will not interface properly with a Tac-ord product we will simply fix that product so that it does, with the customer's permission, of course.  Tac-Ord's customers will always have the option to choose how he or she would like a problem remedied, be it refund, replacement or repair.

If you make the claim, back it up. Right from Jim's own guarantee!

jim Ryan <biggun762@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 19:08:10 (ZULU)

  Leave for a couple of days and miss out on all the good stuff!!

Dillon 550..

  Great press!! If you screw up you can back it up and start over. Not so easy with the auto presses. Dillon dies work fine for my 223s but crap for my 308s. Also agree with lito' on the 9mm dies they look like crap but shoot ok for me but then I don't shoot that great to notice.(HA)

lito'..

  Should a person go to the mag. bar for all rifle powders then?? Is it more accurate?? Nice catch on the trouble maker, I thought we were done with that on here. Wes made the approiate correction as the other guy should have after bad mouthing a companys reputation. A mans business is built on his reputation and should not be attacked without due cause.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 19:19:08 (ZULU)

Gents,

MIA CULPA! I have had private posts between myself, Jim Ryan, "Lito, and Whit Engel. As noted the barrel was a bad chambering job from the manufacturer. NOT TAC-ORD.

Additionally, I made the mistake of taking something off a private list and making it public. I am going to offer to quit that list for my transgression. Just wanted to make sure no one had problems...and created one in the process.

Jim Ryan sent a private post, well written, and gave me information I didn't have...he did NOT have to do that, but took time to clear the air/give a different perpsective.

Sorry about any inconvenience this has caused, Tac-Ord, Whit, or 'Lito.

Crow, it's what's for dinner. There goes MY credibility...

Wes

(the abashed)

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 19:19:40 (ZULU)

About Tac-Ord's "guarantee"... he didn't blame anyone, and took full blame for the bolt thing.

If you are whining about his guarantee... what gun of his do YOU own, what complaint do YOU have about your gun, that he hasn't made right... nada.

You're a whining little baby, with no dog in this race... go home.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 19:28:41 (ZULU)

My shoulder gets sore and I start flinching after 20 or so rounds when prone...

Anyone done one?  What are the tricks?  I'll be working with an HS stock off of a Remington VS.....

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 19:28:42 (ZULU)

Marco, you can go down to Dietrichs to hunt any time you like, Ill be down that way from 27th on untill the 3rd,I forwarded your last mail to home so I could reply but the damn thing hasn't come through yet(devil machine) make sure your summer holiday includes first August week for hunting in Scotland.

Im thinking of rebarreling my 308 to 9.3x62, either that or scoping my 450 marlin,but the again Ied like one of these new Sauer 202 LAW's, my damn heym barrel for my 30-06 still hasn't turned up, if its not here by end Jan, Im going with Shillen, either way, the 06 is my Scotland rifle and I want some bigger holes in these pigs, Im getting a beat or area near Frankfurt to hunt and there are pigs all over the place, now although tracking em all once shot is great work for the dog, it does interfear with my work schedule.

HOWA rifles, saw a recall on howa bolts today. model no's 1500, 1550,1700LS, manufactured between 1970 and 1993, serial nr's between, PN00010 to PN87159, LS00001 to LS05150,M000001 to M020422, LS10001 to LS10309, B000001 to B028450 need a bolt modification, contact Howa, www.regcen.com/howa      or call 1-800-456-5131.

Catch you all later, Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 19:54:27 (ZULU)

Jim

The recoil pad used on the 300 win mag PSS is real nice and keeps things down to a dull thud, while the pad on my 308 PSS is barely there. It's on a HS and stock as well, and believe(ask Lito) that it's made by Butler Creek.

Lito, The way you are able to control yourself, you ought to run for office. I'd vote for you. We discussed testing some 118lr and A-191 several months ago and I'll try and get it out now that things are settling down here. I'm going to check with UPS and see how they want it packaged. I shipped a Gun case to a guy on the left coast and they about had a cow.

Chief <dwightc11@home.com>
USA - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 20:03:47 (ZULU)

Chief... "Selfcontrol"???  Who you talkin' 'bout??  ME?  HA! (as Pat would say).  Ken has whacked the little twit (for the second time).

I spoke to Jim Ryan at length today (for about an hour), and urged him to post here, and explain some fo the things that have been said about him, and his company... he said he'll think about it.

I have seen several of his guns, and hey were first cabin, and several Rosterfarians own many (as in "repeat" customers), with no complaints.

Jim took some heat from a kid last spring over a problem with a bolt... I saw the bolt, and it was a mess, but there was an explaination for it, and reason that it happened.  At the time, Jim took full responsibility for the problem, and offered the kid a full refund on the spot, or a profit on the gun if the kid was willing to wait a bit for the gun to be sold to another customer who wanted it, or he offered the repair it... but that didn't satisfy the kid, and he went all over the internet, slaming Tac-Ord.  Then the kids brother chimed in, along with another guy... all of who were run off the site.

I hope Jim decides to post something...  this really needs to be cleared up.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 21:09:33 (ZULU)

To the piss ant that posted his non-problem again.....

Jeez kid, do you think that we don't have memories or archives.

Recoil pads.....

Going to change out all my pads to Pach Decelerators this winter. Per some helpful Rosterferian emails earlier this year on the same subject, these appear and do feel to the touch like they are the ticket. Will gain almost an 1" and protect my dainty shoulder that has been generally abused and damaged beyond repair.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
Finally wet in, NC, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 21:32:10 (ZULU)

After speaking with HS, the recoil pads used on the magnum rifles are Uncle Mikes Magnum recoil pads, as distributed by Butler Creek now.  Cheapest I found them online was $26 from Michaels of Oregon BUT, HS sold me one for my stock with the Winchester logo already pressed in (Looks just like OEM, go figure) for the amazing sum of $10. I don't believe you can get a quality pad anywhere for less.  You will probably have to cut your stock and add spacers to get your LOP correct, and then grind the overhang off.  It's a job I sub out, all that molten rubber flying off the sander... no thanks...

On the subject of recoil pads.. The pad I had installed works alright, and gives me an additional 1" LOP which was welcome.. But I still start to get sore after 80 or so rounds(308win).  Call me a...  well, ya know, but I have been considering switching to a kick-eze pad.  Anybody have any first hand input as to how well these pads hold up??  They seem very soft, and I fear it'll rip during hard use (say, a briar patch) and become somewhat useless.  Advice is requested and appreciated.

Wes,

I'd hate to see you stop posting over a misunderstanding.  You had the balls to correct your statement publicly and take it like a man.. Wouldn't want to see someone of your "caliber" leave.

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 23:25:35 (ZULU)

Any info would be greatly appreciated. I've shot it once (the day I got it at 25 yards at plastic bottles full of water with a friend and 25 year old round nose's)  but haven't got it on a bench yet, is this puppy supposed to be pretty good or is it a looser? It was the right price though; and I can't wait to show it to the Crows. Thanks.

Christian Torp <clt16@cornell.edu>
- Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 23:27:50 (ZULU)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 00:47:21 (ZULU)

I would like to make a comment about DUTY ROSTER.   As a first time rosterfarian I thought I would let you know what else you have done.

After reading Duty Roster for about two years I finally got to use the information found in it.  I recently took a pre-owned Remington 700 in 308win to the range.  The previous owner had nothing good to say about the rifle, his best 5 shot group was just under 4 inches, yes I said 4 inches.  Ater torquing down the screws, some of which were around 32 inch lbs.replacing the Tasco scope with a Leupold LR M3

and adding a few other things.  I went to the range for a sighting in session, after about 12 rounds I had a lovely 3 shot group measuring a hair under 1 inch at 100 yards.  I was happy....very happy.

Of course the former owner took a hard look at the target hanging on my locker door, not believing it was the same rifle.  Maybe one day I will tell him where I got my education, But for now I'm having way too much fun questioning his shooting ability.   Thanks to all

                                               TomC

Thomas Cook <Flcookfamily@cs.com>
Lake Worth, Fl, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 01:41:22 (ZULU)

C harlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
ann arbor, mich, usa - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 02:00:05 (ZULU)

BigGun762 - "You are the weakest link.....GooooByye!"

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 02:08:20 (ZULU)

Recoil pads:  I like the kick-eez much better than the decelerator.  Sorbothane is magic.

Seems the satellite phones went beserk when we dropped our last BLU-82.  The intel is that Osama is cornered.  We'll see.

You just know there's some two-star 11-H with a plan to do something crazy like drill a hole into a cavern, fill it with some explosive slurry, and pop Tora Bora like a big zit.  The papers talk like it won't be necessary, but it would be a riot to watch.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 03:07:17 (ZULU)

will get you to the NRA's Whittington Center.  I spend two weeks per year playing on their "Sighting in Range."

They have 'parking lots' with electricity, 'parking lots' with sewer, water & elctricity and a semi nice somewhat brushy or small tree parking areas with sewer, water & electricity.  If you would like to have a camp fire, it's "Primitive Area" only and 'hard sided' campers (RVs) are NOT allowed.  There are also a LIMITED number of spaces with electricity at the firing lines on most ranges.  The Shootzenfest(sp) range is next to the long (1000yds) range.

They have a 'shower house' with small laundry, and many options for housing.  If you have any specific questions you can't get answered on their site, gimme a holler and I'll do what I can...

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 03:11:19 (ZULU)

Streched things out to 1K last weekend and ran into problems with my GM 168's...  they hit (what few did) sideways!  I even found one stuck BACKWARDS into the plywood sheet that I had the target on.  I called Sierra and they said the 168's go subsonic "around" 800 or so and this caused them to tumble.  So they told me to go to the 175 MK's.  I'm sure most of you know this already...

Now, from lurking here for quite a while and knowing the tiring repetitions of Q & A, I will cut my losses and just ask for a few favorite loads.  The rig is a built Remmie 700 .308, 24" Schnieder that holds the 168's in 2 1/2" at 600 yds.  Where do I go from here?

As always, thanks, and may there be NO WIND...

John

John in MS <jrr051468@aol.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 04:37:37 (ZULU)

I first tried a Kick-eez pad on a light 20g double, I use on woodcock.

They hold up great to briars, thorns, etc. But you do have to pick out the stickers that become trapped, the pad just kind of "heals" itself.

FatBoy, don't you think, given current events, that you should trade that bucket of fried chicken for a rack of BBQ porkribs. ; )

Larry, showerhouse...laundry...electricity...a 1000yd range?

That does it, I'm moving!!!

4i's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
origional, Indian country, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 04:49:19 (ZULU)

Just back from my Gun Club Meeting. Why is it the simple stuff is so hard? We want to put on a LE/Tac Rifle Course and they get all goosey like it's gonna teach the secrets of the NINJA to the wrong people. Talk about misconceptions. Spent 15 minutes just describing what we are trying to do...damn.

John, in .308...join the rest of us...VARGET, VARGET, VARGET!

My pet load is 44.0 grains, a Lapua case, Fed 210M primer, and a Sierra MK 175, OAL: 2.800". Velocity is 2,650 FPS from my 26" Obermeyer barrel. You can go to .45.0 grains, but I see no reason to...work you loads up to 44 or 45 grains. Standard safety warnings apply...

Chris, OK, I'll stay. If only to see/hear your response when you get that 6.5 X .284 put together!

All for now, 'tis late. Still feel bad about my post earlier, but will consider it a learning lesson and old history. Hell, I'm 50 now, I can claim old age as an excuse...that's it!

My best to all. My presence on the list and comraderie here are very important to me...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 05:23:01 (ZULU)

  Just wanted to weigh in on this Tac-Ord deal, in case someone gets put off by the implication that they're doing something wrong.

  Jim, Mark, and Rick are personal freinds of mine, I have my .45 in their shop right now, and Rick and I shoot together pretty often, so I think I know these old boys well enough to vouch for them.

  The Chase/little brother/room-mate bolt face deal is in the archives, and that idiot is full of shit.

  I have shot both .223 and .308 rifles equiped with Tac-Ord suppressors, and they're quiet and effective.

  Yes, you may have to wait a while, but these guys are really busy, and there are only the three of them working there.

  Rick Garcia does most of the public speaking it seems, and yes, he will tell you when you're full of it. He will also help you whenever he can, and he has the bona fides to make his opinion valid.

  Like I said, these are friends of mine, and I'd hate to see them get a bad reputation for something they didn't do.

Carl Hendricks <rifle30@worldnet.att.net>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 07:59:40 (ZULU)

 Saw a coupla questions regarding this. Here's some work that I did on a 700 PSS awhile back. It has a recoil pad installation and some stock forearm filling ( I had one of the early pss's I guess).

http://www.aspiringtech.net/rem700pss/

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 10:29:36 (ZULU)

As many of you know I have many TAC-ORD rifles, the only problem I have with them (the rifles) is that I want more...  About the only problem I have with the staff at TAC-ORD is that they're very busy and can't chat with me for hours about some of my hair-brained ideas.

My latest series of rifles from them included a .223 on a Remington 722 action and a 338 RUM on a 700 action.  Both of these new rifles shoot great, as always.  The 338 RUM is awesome, furthest test firing was at SMTC using 300 Sierras at just a few yards under a mile, 1740 yards or close as measured by GPS (not a wonderful test but fun and VERY educational).

Mike Miller

 You done with those contract slings yet?

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 11:42:01 (ZULU)

LeMay OUT

LeMay <M40A1SNIPER@att.net>
MICH, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 12:00:12 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27726-2001Dec11.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 12:14:37 (ZULU)

 How did you hook up the Hornady powder dump to your Dillon 550?? Do you have to dump the powder by hand or does it do it automaticly through the machine like the Dillon powder dump does?? Thanks!!

 I have put a couple of Decelerators on the VS stocks. I cut off the thin pad and then used AccuGlass jell to put on the new pad and then ground it down. If you do it yourself put two layers of wide tape around the stock and then grind the pad down until the fist layer starts to go THEN STOP!!! The best way to grind soft rubber pad is to put the stock in the freezer overnight. It helps but still sucks better off to have someone else do it. I am just to damn cheap!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 13:10:53 (ZULU)

A guide for you...

1. anybody can shoot that good.  25 shots.

2. that's  nothing to brag about. 10 shots.

3. that's not bad.   5 shots.

4. wow I wish I could do that!  3 shots.

5. wow that's not possible is it?  3 shot the other 2 missed completely.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 13:14:15 (ZULU)

Biological Attack on USA after Ramadan:www.washingtontimes.com/national/20011212-85319822.htm

You guys are entertaining again, and it's nice to see that the regulars are so damn civilized.  Wes you have true class.  Some of you others on the other hand........;-)

I too am going to look at recoil pads.  The stock Salvage (uuuuuhhh) ;-) pad is pretty solid.  After 30-40 rounds, I am fighting flinch.

The NRA Whittington Center looks like a cool place to have a Sniper Country Rosterhog weekend camp-in/shoot/party with enough lead time to schedule vacation (hint hint).

Thomas Cook:  I hear ya dude, am in a similiar boat.  I started out a couple years ago with a stock, used, Savage 110FP that shot 1"-2" with good factory ammo, and zero reloading knowledge, I mean ZERO.  My first handloads with my modded stick into .5" were a big day for me...satisfaction factor is way up there, especially since I am using all the wrong stuff (chuckle...Savage rifle, Lee reloading gear).  I do however use the Hornady Custom Grade dies for the .308.  I like them alot.  I also shoot much more consistently than I ever have.  I have a long way to go, but I am getting there.

:-)

P.S.  We don't have to go into the Savage/Remmy thing again do we??   That was a 'gentle' dig at youse guys, heh heh!!

Outta here

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
WI, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 13:23:30 (ZULU)

Second, I was wondering if anyone has the contact info for MWG?  They make bubble levels for scopes, rings, etc...

Thanks

Scott

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 14:08:53 (ZULU)

For our European hogs - V V recommends either N540 or N150, for the 175 SMK, but states N140 and N540 can also be used. If your interested in their load recommendations e-mail me.

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 14:09:07 (ZULU)

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011212/wl/iran_politics_1.html

This goes with the link I posted a few days ago about our SF going into Somalia.  

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95001587

We're moving the 3rd Army H.Q. to Kuwait, putting something decisive together in Iraq, and sending Marines to the Phillipines.  

"May you live in interesting times."________Ancient Chinese curse.

We were told that there are seven million American Muslims.  It appears to be closer to two million.  

http://www.stats.org/statswork/muslims.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 14:37:07 (ZULU)

I use 45 gr of 4064 and it fills winchester and LC brass right to the top.  15 to 20 seconds with a full tray on top of the case tumbler and the charge settles down giving you the entire neck open.  Doing this also does not compress the charge with force.  I also have found that using magnum primers instead of lg rifle ones  Fed 215M vs 210M not only gives me a better burn of the powder, but solves the temperature inconsistancies many people run into with the 4064. I get 2700 fps MV out of a 24" rock 5R barrel.

Just my 2cents

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 16:10:58 (ZULU)

  No big surprise, 4895 has always been the halmark for their accuracy powder in the 308s. Its slow though probably in the 2500fps range.

 You need to stick with Varget where you can get velocity and accuracy. I haven't played with the 175s yet still have some 168s to shoot up. Using Varget I was pushing them to 2800fps out of my 308 and would shoot consistant .5 groups.  With 4064 it would shoot .3s but the velocity was down. I want the best of both worlds for tactical shooting. Just my thoughts on it.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 16:29:36 (ZULU)

"P.S.  We don't have to go into the Savage/Remmy thing again do we?? "

GeoffM - The rem/vs savage thing is easy to sort out - just say Winchester :))

"Digging a deep hole and heading into it....like the taliban"

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 16:39:04 (ZULU)

This old telescopic sight is a fascinating piece of equipment, but I'm puzzled as to how one estimated ranges and leads with it.  It's a post sight with no markings - no mil dots, or anything else except a horizontal crosshair.  How did these WW2 shooters estimate ranges, exactly?  I've obtained a reprint of the 1946 BRitish Army sniper training manual but it makes no mention of ranging, other than to recommend the sight be zeroed for 300 yards at a firing range.

I don't have one of the old telescopes; was that what was used?  Or am I just missing some obvious technique?

Thanks in advance for your patience and replies.

RSB

Robin Bhatty <pike2bishop@cs.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 17:46:50 (ZULU)

The use of Magnum primers is always an option. A lot of people have tried mag. primers and noticed the accuracy went off a little so they gave it up. Usually from just too much increase in pressure and not a bad sign that the mag primers were causing it. Varget can use a little extra primer power on cold days too!  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 18:15:55 (ZULU)

The Hornady measure has an attachment for it, that looks like some drunk with an erector set got out of the loonie farm... it would give Rube Goldberb a woodie... but it works GREAT, and is fully automatic... no case in place, no powder flows... go to:

www.hornady.com.

... and look at the L&L powder measures, and see the "powder measure actuator" thingie... I have 4 of these runnong on my auto machines, and they are flawless.

-

>"GeoffM - The rem/vs savage thing is easy to sort out - just say Winchester :))"<

What Ken said ;)))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 18:19:23 (ZULU)

Welcome to the world of making little holes in something a looong way off.  I don't know much about UK weaponry, especially what was used for sniping decades ago, but you can use the post as a measuring device if it cuts off square.  Set up a tape at least 1" wide at 100 yards, with alternating black/yellow stripes of 1" on it.  sight through she scope ad see how many 1" squares is covered by the post.  You now know how wide your post is and can figure stuff from there.  Archaic and a pain in the ass, but that's all you'll be able to do with that setup.  As for ranging in the days of old, the old Mark-1/Mod-0 Eyeball Range Guestimation device was probably the most used thing. (or a set of Binocs with a ranging reticle, but I don't really know when these came into use).  Best thing to do if you really want to play seriously is get a good modern setup.    

Hawgs,  B-1 bomber is dead in the water off of Diego Garcia.  Too early to tell cause and survivors.

And "Smart" munitions.  Remember these rely on 3 fallible things to work right, Murphy gets in to them all.  1, Computers; 2, Mechanical systems (run by computers...); and 3, human input.  I'd hate the feeling of knowing a bomb I built killed a fellow American becaus I F&^%ed up and did something wrong with it.  I'm good so far, 100% function rate and on the target designated.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of other steps along the way that can cause it to not go where we really want.  I hope this last one wasn't because some moron sitting thousands of miles away typed in the wrong numbers for the GPS.

Out

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 18:24:19 (ZULU)

Good reads on powder for the .308. I think it's safe to say that a great majority of us use Hogdon's Varget for our .308's. There are other decent powders, as well.

I've gotten good results with Accurate Arms 2520 and Sierra 168's, but the load proved more temperature sensitive than I liked.

IMR-4895 NEVER did deliver the accuracy I was looking for with 168's...

Vihtavouri Oy N140: I HAVE NOT had good luck with this powder...some folks love it, but with 168's and 175's I have experienced velocity spreads as high as 120 Ft. per second, in a ten shot string. It gets a thumbs down, in my book.

Sierra 190's have shot well with IMR-4064. Giving sub-MOA performance at 600 yards and actually shooting .5 MOA FLATTER than 175's at that distance.

6.5 X .284: Good results with EVERYYHING I've tried. Seems to be one of the cartridges that shoots well no matter what you stuff behind a 142 gr. Sierra... H4831SC has been the best powder to date. Would like to try some N165...

Pat, you want to chime in here...?

All for now,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 18:36:37 (ZULU)

Here's the link, and you might be able to just click my name.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1047324731

For those of you who sent me input on reloading, I greatly appreciate your time and effort.  Special thanks to Medic Jim, who sent me an itemized list of what I'll need and some advice.  Much appreciative.

Hold Hard,

Fitz.

Fitz. <sfitzgerald@arpac.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 19:10:02 (ZULU)

Just to let you know SOCNET appears to have been hacked and some of its administrators had emails with worms attached to them.  

Out here.

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 19:21:00 (ZULU)

Wes..

  Thats been pretty much my findings also. The 6.5x284 shoots most powders very well. I have tried the N-165 and liked it but it was a tad slower on velocity than the rest and I like the "Extreme" powders because of the extreme temp varriations I live in.

  I tried the N-140 in my 308 with the Hart barrel with a 1-10 twist and it shot it into a solid .3 consistantly with the 168s. I even tired the N-150 and it shot that well too. My new 308 doesn't like it at all just like yours. The new one loves Federal Match and I can only come close to it with 4064 otherwise the factory will outshoot my reloads. Go figure!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 19:26:31 (ZULU)

I see a lot of you singing the praises of Blackhills ammo.  I think I read somewhere they use Ramshot powder.  Has anyone tried reloading with Ramshot in 300WM and if so what were the results like?

As always any answers will be gratefuly received.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 19:40:33 (ZULU)

LeMay OUT"

LeMay, if you were going to reload the tracer bullets, then surely you have a powder scale.  Why don't you just weigh some of the bullets?

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
New Hampshire, - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 20:17:22 (ZULU)

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/strike_MAIN.html

It appears that the elaborate underground complexes don't exist.  The caves are just caves.  

http://www.usatoday.com/news/attack/2001/12/12/torabora-usat.htm

This says that Al Qa'eda has abandoned lower elevations, and fled to the very high mountains.  That sounds like a desperate move.  This also says that bin Laden is with his fighters.  Being on the object of American bombing sounds very unpleasant.  

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001560015-2001573033,00.html

Allah bombs Hell out of US and we're dying like sprayed mosquitoes.  About 75 of us a day are cashing it in.  We're in complete disarray.  Bin Laden has us right where he wants us, and we're f***ing doomed.

http://66.96.205.195/%7Eazzam/afghan/news/news.php?id=33

Kamakazi camels terrorize Jarheads.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1705000/1705341.stm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 20:28:34 (ZULU)

I am thinking about getting a digital scale (maybe a Christmas gift...)  Anyone ('Lito?) have any thing to say about any of the models out there?  Any recommended hands down, any to run far from?

Thanks,

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 20:36:22 (ZULU)

The Dillon is just OK!  But not great, and drifts so you have to keep "Zero'ing" it.

The big LYMAN 1000 is major boss!  Works on batteries, has a wind shield (if you load at the range), and is very stable... comes in a nice travel case too!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 20:53:23 (ZULU)

Next it will be micro backpack nukes saddled up on scorpions. Jeez, the guys over there have to watch anything that moves.

I do wish they would give some sitreps on any sniper dudes that may be doing us proud across the pond. It has to be one of the most target rich environments they will ever see. Maybe we need to send out ace reporter Master CDC over there and get the real skinny!

Caison,

Don't forget the Duracells on those 'smart' bombs!

Thomas Cook,

Please deposit $50 in the Snipecountry kitty for the info :)

Today sucked, glad to be home so that I can put in 6 more hours, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 21:38:25 (ZULU)

nathan cain <n8cain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 22:06:05 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32806-2001Dec12.html

Dan-O <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
Gainesville, FL, US of A - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 22:37:15 (ZULU)

Check that.  The story I'm getting is that a large portion of Al Qaeda is attempting to evacuate the low elevation cave complex at Tora Bora and are heading for a high elevation refuge at White Mountain.  We are intensively bombing them as they flee.

That sounds like an even more desperate move.

Good news on the B-1 crew.  It hurts to lose these fine men.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 23:06:11 (ZULU)

For those of you who might be interested, the Sniper Country PX carries the new HS Precision Non-adjustable Vertical Grip Tactical stock for the Rem 700 series. It is very similar to the PST-25 and PST-26 adjustable models, on both LOP and Cheek are fixed. Price is $275. It is not listed on the site yet. If you are wish to order, just let me know if you require short or long action.

Powers.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
- Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 23:07:32 (ZULU)

joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
Turlock, CA, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 23:10:06 (ZULU)

Disappointing Day! A official looking envelope arrived from Headquarters Marine Corps. I figured they were recalling me to active duty...it was just my new commissary priviledges card for 2002...:-(

Guess they don't want us old tired stud-muffins over there. On the other hand it sounds like the lads are doing fine without us...

CDC, Did you get my message and the "cc" that I sent to you and your nephew?

Reloading tonight. Have a new keg of Varget and 100 prep'd Lapua cases...that should keep me out of trouble.

Great weather for a Sniper class out here in the Pacific Northwest "rain forest". Temp is 40 degrees(lower up higher) and nasty. Wind? We're having a special on it...all you'll ever want...FREE! Yuucchh!

Am going to sneak to the range this week and give it a try at 600. That should be fun in this stuff...

Anyone out there doing any shooting or is this the "talk about it/plan" season?

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 23:20:59 (ZULU)

Recoil pads are for sissies.  Narrow steel butt plates are the way to go.  After each shot just blink away the tears and say, "Thank you mistress, may I have another?"  Eventually you'll learn the pleasure of recoil.  Of course a black leather sling is also required. ;-)

Ref: Semi-Autos

I haven't read any posts about SR-25s, AR-10s or M-25s in quite a while.  Do any of you Hawgs use one of these self-loaders?  I'm itching for a new project.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 23:38:14 (ZULU)

I've been shooting AR-10 T's for 5 years.  Have two with Mike Rock 5R barrels, Both shoot 1/2 MOA if I do my part, and one just passed 8,000 rounds.  I have talked about load data in the past, what do you all want to know?  I am happy to share what works for me.

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 00:04:08 (ZULU)

Recoil Pads: Sorbothane is indeed amazing. I'm not keen on pads, stock units (like PSS, McMillan, etc. are fine as far as I'm concerned), but when shooting a .50 cal, you quickly appreciate Sorbothane. Yeah, Barrett's muzzle brakes work like champs, but there is still a smidgen of recoil, and they use Sorbothane and it works. Just store any weapon so equipped muzzle down, prolongs the life of the pad. BTW, muzzle-down is the way to go anyway, prevents lubes and solvents from seeping into action (or those pretty walnut stocks). Just make sure the bottom of the safe or cabinet has some carpet to protect the muzzle.

(Only thing that makes me sicker than John Walker is to see a fine old Parker or Winchester dbl. bbl. shotgun defiled by a recoil pad!)

Good day today.....spoke with Brian Sain and Mike Miller, and got a hand-made Christmas wreath for my front door from Dan and Kathy W., fellow .50 cal shooters from GA. I hope all of you realize what a great community this is.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 00:36:35 (ZULU)

For MWG product info go to www.mountsplus.com

Powders.  I have had good luck with IMR-3031 with 168 SMKs and good luck with IMR-4320, VV N-140 with 168s and 175s

'lito, Ken and any others that are in denial;

Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage Savage!!!!!!!!!!

;-)

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 00:36:52 (ZULU)

I also am not sure what I'm gonna do about not letting my hands freeze off.  My left hand can remain gloved, but I don't really have anything I wanna chop a finger off of just now.  When I was in the Guard I had these cold-weather mittens where the right hand had this little cloth finger I could stick my trigger finger into if I needed to shoot.  A pair of those would come in handy right now.

I hate the Army issue combat boots.  I've always intended to get something better, but when I got outta the Guard there was a lot less incentive to do so.  But I haven't any better footware to wear out in the snow, so I'll wear them.  They get hot hot hot in the summer sun, and cold cold cold in the winter snow.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 00:51:10 (ZULU)

I don't have much experience with firelapping, but it seems to be the rage these days.  Are the NECO firelapping ammunition kits a good way to go?  I want to experiment with one on an ArmaLite AR-10A2/Trijicon 4x32 ACOG combination that groups three inches no matter what ammo I feed it (including Federal 168 gr. Match), or who shoots it.  I would much rather experiment on a gun that is going to likely get a new barrel than one of my in service working guns.  I understand firelapping both increases accuracy and decreases fouling.  

Eric Cryar <ericcryar@aol.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 00:52:30 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$YE4MGVQAACICPQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/13/wbin13.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/13/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 01:03:48 (ZULU)

Labor Day Weekend is "Founder's Appreciation Day" so reservations may be slim (plenty of rv spaces)...  They do not accept reservations prior 1 Feb of the year concerned.  You can get their schedule via snail mail before they update the online version.

The "Soldiers of Fortune" match is also usually sometime around that time... as is a 'Regional' 50 cal. match.

Stay tuned for their schedule!

BEAUTIFUL place.

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USofA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 01:05:02 (ZULU)

http://www.hsprecision.com/images/grey%20w%20black.jpg

TBD,

Go to Cabela's website and search for "Cabela's Fleece Thinsulate Glomitt". Add some handwarmers and you're in business.

Back the shop, I hear reels calling, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 01:06:42 (ZULU)

"KANDAHAR (Special Report): Abu-Khulood Al-Yemani's joins the ranks of the martyrs in a way that would be the envy of every Muslim."

Uhuh.  Too bad it's not envied enough by more of them.

Or this:

"KANDAHAR (Islam News): The desire for martyrdom is so deep in the Arab Mujahideen that they compete with one another for it."

Hey, they don't have to compete for it, if they want it that bad, there's plenty to be had.

http://66.96.205.195/%7Eazzam/afghan/news/news.php?id=33

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 01:07:54 (ZULU)

When did you get your Armalite?  I ran to similar problems in 1999 and early 2000 with some of the Chrome bore rifles.  No matter what you did they shoot poorly.  I saw some with bad crowns and a couple with badly cut chambers, and one with a non-centered bore.  During this time the quality of the barrels was spotty and Armalite was real hush as to what really the problem was, but a lot of barrels got replaced.  They started making barrels in house in 2000 and things are better, but you still need a Mike Rock or a Obermeyer barrel to get them in the bolt gun accuracy class.  To answer your question I don't know w wasfire lapping would do to a chrome bore?  My hunch would be not much since the chrome plating is soo hard, but it is wortha a try.  If this is wrong and anyone knows better sound off!!!!.  I have only used fire lapping twice, both tmes on rough factory remington barrels. Accuracy picked up a little, but threal benefit was they cleaned up a lot easier with less frequency than before.  Did this to one PSS and on 7600.

It's hard to tell too what the crwon looks like with that perm. noise maker on the end.  IF it were me I would start with Armalite and not give up without a fight.  I have an A4 with a chrome bore and it shoots right at 1 MOA with surplus and just under with match.  This kind ao accuracy is more the rule than the exception in my experience.

Mike is the guy to talk to in service.

Good luck with it

Titan

Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, United States of America - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 01:11:36 (ZULU)

I read this, I think, on rec.guns and it has worked flawlessly for me. Take a sized case, and a dremel with a thin (not reinforced) cut-off wheel. Cut the neck vertically on opposing sides just into the shoulder (about 1/8" or a bit less). You will probably need to use a thin grinding stone to reach inside the neck and remove the burrs. This makes a sort of collet that will hold a bullet just tight enough so you can still close the bolt withouth a hammer (!) and the bullet will not stick in the rifling and pull out when you open the bolt. To re-use just carefully use your bullet puller to pull the bullet out as far as needed. I also use a little black marker or machinists blue layout fluid on the bullet just to make sure the bullet hasn't moved when removing the case/bullet from the chamber. If it is really difficult to close the bolt, you can cut further into the shoulder but too far will make it too weak. Anyway, this gives you the OAL, however you choose to measure it, with the bullet touching the lands. You can back it off from there to whatever your magical number is.

Now a question for the 6.5x284 users:

Who makes a good stainless "drop in" barrel for Savage's? I can install it. Are the Pac-Nor any good? I hate to spend too much money on someting that might only last a year or so. Which leads me to: What kind of "accurate" barrel life are you experiencing? What twist do I need for the 6.5 142SMK? How long is a loaded round with the 142SMK (I hope to be able to fit them in a Savage SA which is noticeably nonger than the R700 SA), I know it will vary depending on the individual chamber, but is there an ideal length with that bullet...(you know what I mean!)I understand that the chamber can be cut for a specific bullet loaded to a specific OAL, or is that TOO custom and will cost a small fortune?

Please reply to my email, I just don't get here often enough to read the replies here. This is a fantastic site with a TON of excellent info!

Thanks.

Tim

Tim <timmead@teleweb.net>
Michigan, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 01:16:27 (ZULU)

C harlie Mitzelfeld <d.l.squires@worldnet.att.net>
ann arbor, mich, usa - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 01:42:48 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 01:45:35 (ZULU)

The daisy-cutter has fangs and claws... Run away! Run away!  

;-)

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 02:02:45 (ZULU)

 Wes - I was outside the other evening (rainy and cold) and remembered your comment regarding getting out and practicing in the bad weather too.

I said to myself "Self - Wes is right" "I oughta go back inside, get my gear, and my garden .22 (marlin), crawl out here in the Major's garden and get into a good hide position - and spend the whole night out here in the cold, wet weeds. First light tomorrow morning - take one shot at my designated target - and it better be a hit too.

After all that - then hit the shower and head to work :)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 02:52:51 (ZULU)

Stay tuned...

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 02:56:04 (ZULU)

You can ship my new rifle to me after the other 20 guys pay for their tickets. Come on fella's...I can hardly wait!

As for bad weather training...we really need an "identical rifle" to our tactical guns, in .22 caliber, to practice with...

Let's see, a Rem 40X in .22, McMillan HTG stock, 26" barrel, 10X Luppie MKIV M1, Turner sling or Tac-Advantage...yeah, THAT'S IT! A 15 lb. rabbit/critter getter!

I can see it now..."Yes, honey. I'm only buying a cheap .22"...;-)

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 03:31:14 (ZULU)

Back in '68 I had a chance to buy an Enfield Mk III sniper rifle with the additional comb piece, scope, mount all accessories and the arsenal crate that the piece was issued with- for $79. Turned it down.  The reticle in the scope was the same one you described.  No doubt very effective in dim light and very handy in the bocage (sp?) country but not a joy to use for long range work.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 03:41:30 (ZULU)

Since some of the conversation has turned towards the venerable .22 I thought it would be worth mentioning that Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office uses them to conduct their "Nutria Abatement Program". How they get around the liabilities involved with this I'll never know, but it does look like a lot of fun. A pick-up truck is used to patrol the large drainage canals between BUSY highways and roads INSIDE city limits. The spotter,usually sitting on a lockbox behind the cab,is equipped with a Q-Beam and handles all of the lighting needs. The shooter is equipped with bolt or semi, suppressed .22 rifle(s) and usually sits with his back up against the tailgate with the muzzle sweeping the canals. They lurk around the city in the early pre-dawn hours silently terminating the large, non-indigenous vermin. They jump pretty high when hit. Kinda like Pythons Bunny Rabbit. I don't think JPSO has any Holy Hand Grenades of Antioch yet, though.

Biggun, Littlegun, Chase Meachum, or whatever the f#$k your'e going to call your self the next time you turn up, do me a favor; find someplace else to go. You're killing me down here. Everytime I post something I'm sure somebody is saying "there goes that idiot again." Its not like its common name or anything.I ended up calling G. Gardner one day to find out why he wanted to talk to me and why it was so important that I contact him. It turned out he was referring to your stupid ass and the bolt that has become so infamous here. Better yet, do this; learn to read, buy a copy of "King Rat", figure out what a bore-hole is and how to construct one, then just follow the example set forth in the book. I'm positive the world will be a much better place.

My.02

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 06:57:20 (ZULU)

Matt <m57gonefishing@hotmail.com>
Clovis, CA, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 08:53:35 (ZULU)

At the outbreak of WW2,Great Britain found herself in exactly the same situation as in 1914, with regard to Snipers and Sniper Rifles,  for all practical purposes,there where non !! there was a too short supply of modern optics to enable conversion of selected rifles to the Sniper role and the Rifle MK 4 was in short supply as production of this model wasn't as yet in full swing. .So the only alternative was to bring out the relics from WW1.Due to the disapointing performance of the SMLE sniper variants in WW1 most had been re-converted back non sniper role and the Scopes where removed and placed in storage.( Scopes by manufacturers such as Periscopic Prism Co(London),Aldis, Evans and some from Winchester).

There where a few Sniper variants of the Canadian Ross MkIII,and the American built P14's still around,however they where scarce.Hence the British and Commonwealth forces faced a dilemma,The Germans had very effective Snipers who where armed with a very effective Sniper variant of the Mauser M98,The Brits had been caught with their pants down (funny how history repeats its self!!)

Then some one remembered that the Winchester manufactured P14's had given good service as a Sniper rifle during WW1, thus a conversion programme was started, in which many stored Winchester P14's infantry rifles where converted to the Sniper role by the fitting of the variouse at hand optics stored since 1919.(the conversion was carried out by Civilian firms, Holland & Holland bieng the most notable.

These rifles where given the designation Rifle No.3 Mk1*(T)A.

By the end of 1941 production of the No 4 was in overdrive and there where enough examples to allow conversion to the Sniper role to begin.

The conversion was done to standard production No4's that where chosen because they had displayed a above average level of accuracy, it involved, Stock refitting, fitting of cheak peace to stock, machining the ghost ring off the rear diopter sight(to allow lower mounting) and mounting of the Telescope No 32. Holland & Holland where the only civilian company to carry out this conversion(in the UK) and between 1942 and 1946 a total of 23177 Rifle No 4's where converted into Sniper Rifles and they where given the designation  Rifle No4 MkI(T) (T for telescopic sight).

The Telescope No 32 is a 3 power scope and was originaly designed to be fitted to the Bren gun, (but thats another story).

The No4MkI(T)'s came packed in a purpose made, sturdy wooden box, withe acessories such as spare magazine, cleaning kit and a Garand sling, the Scope No32 was numbered to the rifle.

Canadian variants of the No4Mk1 have different telescopes, usualy US manufactured and also have different stocking, the rear stock has an integral cheek piece and is more of a Monte-carlo style and has a fuller curved pistol grip.

After the close of WW2, The UK once again fell into the same blind peace time mistake of not keeping up to speed on Sniper rifle technology and Sniper employment, letting training and everything else associated with designated sniping lapse.

Whenever a trouble spot around the world produced the need for a British Sniper commitment, the wheel was reinvented and the Rifle No4MkI(T) was used, attempts to convert standard No4MkI's by fitting stocks from the No5 and optics where largely a failure.

Before the US acception into service of the 7.26x51, trails where made to find an alternative to the ageing 303 cartrige, The EM2 in cal 280, and FN Fal in 7mm where looked at, with the US adoption of the 7.62, several Enfield variants where rebarreled to this calibre and designated the L8. The FN FAL (SLR L1A1) was adopted as the standard issue rifle to the British forces, it was largely deemed unaceptable for conversion to a Sniper role, however later variants did have optics fitted, but where more of a dedicated marksman rifle.

With the escilation of the conflict in Northern Ireland, the need for effectively trained Snipers and an effective weapon system again rose its ugly head, and in time honoured tradition of the Upper Echelons of the British Military, again the paniked search for a sniper rifle began(will they ever learn!!)

An attempt was made to convert some Rifle L8's, this failed misserably. Hence in 1970 Enfield began converting the existing No4Mk1(T)'s, These where rebarreled with a heavier barrel in 7.62x51. and the fore stock was shortened, these became the Rifle L42 T. The telescope No32 was improved upon and developed. The rest of the unconverted No4Mk1(T)'s where placed in war reserve untill the early 80's when they where also convertedin to L42's.( Several No4Mk1(T)'s found there way onto the civilian market, original versions are rare and demand high prices today and are a very collectable fire arm).

The L42 continued in service as the Issued Sniper Rifle until April 1992, It was used in many conflicts world wide and provided reliable performance, it was relpaced in 1992 by the L96A1 ending an era of 104 years of Enfield Rifles.

Facts:   No4Mk1(T)               L42A1

Cal.     .303"(7.7x56R)          7.62x51 NATO

Operation.Bolt Action            Bolt Action

Feed.     10 rd, box mag         10 rd,box mag.

Weight.   9.13lb w/o scope       9.77lb w/o scope

         11.63lb with           12.27lb with

Length.   44.5"                  46.5"

Sights.  x3 power No32 scope     x3 power L1A1 (improved No32)

         plus iron sights         plus iron sights

M/Vel     2465 fps               2750 fps

Now to answer the question about adjusting for range with the Telescope No32. now I have seen several variations on this scope, some with marked ranging and windage adjustment turrets basicaly this was trail and error, the scope can be adjusted up and down although markings where on many examples not engraved and positive "click" adjustments are not available, it was a practice(although discouraged with the models where when zeroed the turret was locked with a screw) for a sniper to mark the turret of the scope for ranges, either with paint or a scratch mark.(later models had ranges marked) But the individual scope needed to be tested for repeatability, as many where poor in this department. The designated way to do it was to zero the rifle at 300m and use different hold's on your intended target attempting to hit centre mass, ie, nearer than 300m you would hold low,towards groin area, further than 300m hold high, head/shoulder area, these holds where all and average of averages,and not realy given to extreem precision shooting, however it is suprising what level of accuracy can be attained by constant practice in this method,it is however limited because at longer ranges you need so much elevation, that to hold above your targets head enough would mean you wouldn't see him in the scope. Trail and error is the only answer here, combined with much practice and that went for range gestimation also. the No4Mk1(T) is a rifle that I personaly would love to own just to have one(because my Dad carried/used one in his 1Bn East Yorkshire Regiment days) and I intend to buy an L42 if I ever manage to find one at a resonable price when I have the funds available.

Sorry for the long post guys, I got carried away again, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 08:54:45 (ZULU)

My stock busted on my Tikka M695 300 Win mag.  It was on my shoulder, and the sling screw in the forearm pulled straight out(didn't unscrew).  The barrel fell back and hit the ground, the stock broke in two right behind the action, and the lense on the eyepiece of my B&L was scratched(not a good day).  Tikka does not feel they should have to replace the stock and wants an obsurd amount for a replacement.  I've looked for a stock all over the place with no luck.  Does anyone know of a company that makes stocks for Tikkas or if one of the Sako stocks will match the M695?  Thank-you, I appreciate the help.

Matt <m57gonefishing@hotmail.com>
Clovis, CA, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 09:05:30 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 09:18:29 (ZULU)

I saw a 20 minute piece on TV about the Neutria hunts down there, and it was real tempting to move down there, and become a vollenteer night shift police Sharpshooter (HA!)... they were using canned 10/22s and a canned bolt gun for the far shots... seems the only opposition they had was P.E.T.A.  It was a friggin' riot!

Sir Wesley... I saw a used .22 cal 40x target riffle with Redfield target sights, in a gun shop last week... they want lunch money for it cus the wood stock looks crappy (seems that nobody knows how to refinish a stock anymore)... gonna put a deposit on it this friday... got a 6x Lupita with mildots, sittin' around waitin' for a home :)))

Ken... >"...crawl out here in the Major's garden and get into a good hide position"<.

That Cat only has 8 lives left;)), go git 'em.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 09:19:48 (ZULU)

ALL:  Got to speak with Bruce Robinson yesterday.  What a gentleman.  I always feel inferior speaking with guys like that.  Guess it's due to my Cajun, redneck, white trash, ex-poaching, Harley riding upbringing.  Oh well, he humored me and we talked for a while.  Thanks Bruce, enjoyed the visit.  Will send some business soon.

Hey, isn't the HS Precision man on this site ?  Got some questions about the stocks, old and new, bedding blocks, full length, partial length, etc. and which are which, etc.  Any info appreciated.  Where I am going with this is:  Which stocks have sling swivel studs screwed into metal (other than just the fiberglass) and which ones do not ?  My computer seems to have a problem letting me check the archives.

NUTRIA:  Went out in the marsh a year ago with my sniper partner.  The boy is a SERIOUS duck hunter. Watching him shoot an 870 is like attending a redneck ballet, magical.  Each member of his family owns an air boat (He's Cajun too).  The nutria were taking over his huntin' spots.  He said he'd drive if I shot.  What a deal !  Brought a Rem 541 T w/ Leup 6.5-20 EFR.  Shooting rats as fast as I could run the bolt.  Left hand, right hand, behind the back, all from a moving air boat, nothing but net.  Took a minute to get used to it all.  Fast paced but a friggin' blast ! Just find a little brown with a crosshair and break the shot.  No time to breath and all that marksmanship stuff.  Not that I am good or nothing but I rarely missed. Funny how all the basics can go seemingly on autopilot.

I guess I see how the old trick shooters could do what they did.  I just got a little taste of it in the marsh.  One of the funnest times of my life.  

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:04:44 (ZULU)

I'd be hesitant at using acetone down the bore--not because of any damage to the bore, but because it MAY eat through anything plastic it comes in contact with, including the handle of your cleaning rod, pistol grip, etc. Not quite sure what the point of it would be anyway, unless it's to remove the last vestiges of grease/oil/moly(?). Anyone else correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it will dissolve copper.

Bruce:  <<(Only thing that makes me sicker than John Walker is to see a fine old Parker or Winchester dbl. bbl. shotgun defiled by a recoil pad!)>> Wasn't it Roy Dunlap (or someone even older) who said that a recoil pad on a fine gun looked like someone in a tux wearing rubber boots? ;)

Wes: Only problem with the "cheap .22" idea is that after taking all the s**t for buying it in the first place, the "other half" winds up liberating it for her own personal use! Like 'lito, I try to find the bargain, then squirrel away the lunch funds. Too bad she knows the combo to the gun vault.;))

Caison: re your post about the archaic ranging guesstimation--had a pair of ancient brass-bodied binocs with a ranging reticle one of my forebears "requisitioned" from an arty unit in the Great War. Seems he commanded a MG company, and used them extensively to range the "Boche". So they were around, but don't know if they were officially issued to anyone other than arty. The reticle was a primitive thing, marked in yards; don't know what the height/width of the targeting reference was, but I recall it didn't work out in mils.

Nutria hunts? Hell, we used to pop 'em across the dam from the swimmin' hole. Darn things were vicious...they've got HUGE fangs...just like Python's Bunny Rabbit! ;)))

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:04:47 (ZULU)

What the hell is a nutria?  Sounds like some sorta fiber bar sold by one of those multi-level nutritional supplement companies.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:52:16 (ZULU)

http://www.pwrc.nbs.gov/resshow/nutria.htm

Here's a relevant quote:

"Nutria are large (8-18lb) beaver-like rodents introduced from South America. They have become overpopulated because of the decline in the fur industry and a lack of any other apparent market for the animals."

There are pictures on that website.

TBD <seth@pengar.com>
Southern, NH, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 13:55:05 (ZULU)

Your talkin about hunting Neutria from an air boat (I'm REAL jelouse!!) brought to mind when I was yound, me and a friend rode shotgun on a manure spreader, and damn near died laughin'... a local farmer was spring seeding his alpha fields, and had a manure truck that would throw a mix of cow poop, and seed, but the flocks of starlings (a local trash bird), would follow the truck and eat more than 50% of the seed.

So he worked out a deal/trade with us to protect his seedin' operation... he set up a 2"x8" plank across the back of the manure truck, and we sat on the plank facing backwards... I had a 28ga Charles Daley over and under, and my friend had a 20ga Rem 1100, and we each brought a full case of ammo.

When that truck went across the fields, starlings would follow, swoopin' an' divin' all over the place.  It made skeet shootin' look like child's play!  It was the first time I saw smoke coming off that 28 ga barrel... We went through both cases of ammo in one day, and damn near died laughing!  Took us three days to get to smellin' OK!

Now for the other side of the deal... in exchange for our "sacrifice" of riding shotgun on his truck (it was really hell, but somebody had to do it ;), we got full access to all his fields for 'chuck shooting.

It's one of my best memories... other than the "great bullfrog safari" which was also a hoot ;)))

TBD... they didn't "get over populated" because of the declining fur market... the Neutria were just dumped into the swamps from the Neutria farms in Florida, and Louisiana in the late 50's during a "booming fur market"... when women discovered that the prised $15,000 Neutria coats were not from some exotic aminal like Russian Black Sable, or mink, but from a South American RAT!

This link from your link:

http://www.pwrc.nbs.gov/FACTSHTS/FACT1.PDF

... shows how much damage they will do to a swamp, or marsh

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 14:30:38 (ZULU)

"... Success will demand a sustained effort. Victory will come not as a result of spectacular battlefield successes, but by breaking the will of our adversaries..."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-mahnken121301.shtml

We're in for a long haul, boys.  

Side note to the guy who's e-mailing me claiming to be Secretary Powell:  His first name is spelled C-O-L-I-N.  It would add some credibility if you got that right.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 14:35:26 (ZULU)

Re cold weather gloves.  2 solutions - 1.  Go to Walmart's sporting goods dept and get a pair of neoprene gloves.  Cut the trigger finger of the glove partially through near the tip (1st joint) so that you can slip the finger out of the glove to shoot and back over your finger when not shooting.  You can also attach velcro to the back of the finger to keep it out of the way while shooting.  2.  Get a pair of fingerless rag wool gloves.

I've used both solutions when winter flyfishing in really cold weather/water and they work.

HTH.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 15:02:11 (ZULU)

Nutria: We have them in Oregon, as well. All over the Willamette Valley. NASTY critters. Our folklore indicated they are NOT a south american rat, but a genetic crossing of Beaver and Muskrat. Designed to be bred for the fur trade. Bottom line is the market was bad and they were just let loose. Procreate? Put's rabbits to shame! Great fun to walk the drainage ditches and hose'm down with an SMG!

Wow, the whole thing reminds me of the great Chinchilla caper...anyone remember THAT get rich scheme?

Anyone out there shooting a .338 Mag for sniping? Not the Lapua version the Winchester one. They do well with 300 grainers, it looks like, without the expense of the big Lapua rounds and guns. Recoil on the other hand may be a real BITCH. Maybe I should just settle for the .30/416 Z-Mag a friend of mine develop. Neck down a .416 Rigby to .30 cal with 240 grain bullet. Looks like a .223 Improved on serious steroids.

All for now...hold hard.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 15:29:01 (ZULU)

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 16:38:19 (ZULU)

Different critter altogether. Muskrat is Ondatra zibethica; nutria is Myocastor coypus. (No, I didn't know that already--I looked it up!) From what I remember about the muskrat, it's a lot smaller than the nutria, which grow up to about 15 lbs.

Go get 'em...either one ;)

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 16:46:02 (ZULU)

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011213-86106316.htm

Indonesia heats up.  Sounds nasty.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20011213-3522675.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 17:26:36 (ZULU)

Bolt, just $50 for the kitty, how do you want it? cash, check, MO, virgin brass, powder, Florida Sunshine about Feburary or March?

Anybody know of any other ranges in south florida that are longer than 200 yards?  need something close to visit while the wife's at work                             TomC

Thomas Cook <Flcookfamily@cs.com>
Lake Worth, FL, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:15:09 (ZULU)

The lack of any other apparent market for the wiley and vicious Nutria is being filled by people who are pushing for....consumption.

Thats right, if a Cajun could figure out how to fillet a mosquito, he'd fry'im up a mess. I have not tried Nutria yet (which is funny because I'm "mostly" cajun...) but I hear it's not bad. I think that if I ever do I'll probably still prefer 'Gator. I have to think eating a lizard beats eating a rat anyday.

The 20 min clip Patron 'Lito spoke of aired on E!. I had heard of the program before that, but that was mostly unconfirmed rumors. I think they're trying to keep all of the fun to themselves. I would.

All this talk of Nutria busting has me wanting to grab the .22 and head out into Manchac this weekend. Four Mile Marsh sounds like a good plan....

Watch out for the other guy,

Chase

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:15:25 (ZULU)

How skittish are these things?  It sounds like you can almost walk right up to them.  Might be good for a TC-Contender (name your favorite cartridge) and a 3-9x Leupold, with V-Max loads.

I thought these things were appetizers for anacondas in Venezuela.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 18:58:52 (ZULU)

IF a cajun cooked mosquitos, they taste like fried quail!

We ARE talkin about that old crotchy Bruce Robinson out there in Young Mexico. A gentleman by whose standards? He won't even allow Pachmayers on his Parker. He probably doesn't even prefer blondes.

You guys have a way of distortin the truth somethin fierce.

CAUTION POLITICAL Rhetoric!

Looks like Indonesia is gonna be the next hit. I can't believe they're makin it so easy for us! The constant reference to Islamic leaders, that are sympathatic to UBL, is a smoking bomb if you can believe that tape. "I can!" Wouldn't like to air mail a match king to those 2 bastards?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:07:01 (ZULU)

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry121301.shtml

If the Cajun's I've met cooked a nutria, I'd eat it.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:18:17 (ZULU)

CHASE:  Used to see two boys from Hammond at the rodeo every weekend.  Both good cowboys.  Been a while.  I forget the names.

RATS:  Nutria live in the water so they are really pretty clean animals.  They just look like a big ole regular rat with orange buck teeth.  Used to hunt/trap 'em in high school and sell the skins.  Made good goin' out money back then.

LITO:  Been froggin' too.  Lots.  Gigs and .22s  For some weird reason, I always liked using the rifle better (go figure).  Did lose a few that way though.  You'll lose 'em if they jump when you hit 'em near deeper water.  Their ears look just like a little bullseye target.  Hold my beer, I'll shoot this un from the truck !  

I remember one night as a kid, Dad and I were on the bayou late.  Dad was teaching me how to skull a pirougue along while sitting in the front.  I saw a frog on the bank and eased over there to grab him.  Dad calmly told me not to grab him and to look just a little bit harder at him.  I adjusted my headlight and saw that a big ole cottonmouth had him by the back legs.  Dad shot the cottonmouth and we pulled him off the frog.  The snake had long assed fangs with ole green, puss looking poison sacs plum full.  We let the frog be.  Figured he'd had a rough enough day.  Besides, who the hell wants frog legs laced with snake poison.

Watch your six,

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:22:50 (ZULU)

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/13/wsom13.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/13/ixhome.html

Bad terrorist incedent in New Delhi.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/131201/dlnat125.asp

And it sure hit the fan in Israel, huh?  Good thing the West Bank, India and Indonesia didn't all happen in late September.  This half-assed jihad may have been much messier.  If you have to have enemies, it is a real convenience for them to be too stupid to coordinate their operations.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 19:44:12 (ZULU)

Garrison driven small game shoot tommorow, should be a good laugh, usualy is, lets see if there are any pheasants this year, good day out with my dog.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:21:42 (ZULU)

Thanks very much for the helpful comments concerning my no.32 Mk2 Houghton Butcher scope.  Pete L, I recognize a fellow fanatic.  I hope you manage to find one of these No.4 Mk1 (T)'s.  

Caison, I will try the 1" tape method you described.  My post comes to a point, but it still ought to work as a rough and ready method of ranging.  Better than my inexperienced eyeball, anyway.

I take your point about getting a more up to date rig if I want to get into the sport seriously (and I do).  But my wife'll shoot me if I drop another bag o' bucks on another rifle right now.  Besides, I'm in love with the Lee-Enfield.  

However, that brings up another question.  I'm looking for shooting schools in the North East where a beginner can get good instruction on long-range shooting.  Ideally, one that would let me use my No.4 Mk.I.  The only school I've found that has a course specifically for old rifles is Thunder Ranch, in Texas, and that course isn't offered until the end of April 2002.  Can anyone suggest other schools?  

Finally, this Kamikaze camel story.  I have personal experience of this type of warning, and it makes me wonder why elements of Uncle Sam's government seem so fixated on it.  I hadn't heard about the Afghans using suicide camels against the Soviets, maybe that's where it comes from.

Anyway, a couple of years back a team of people from a client were offered a briefing in DC by a couple of government agencies.  The client was building a very expensive, high profile piece of infrastructure in a rather touchy place and so gratefully accepted the offer and dispatched a very high-powered team of people.  Well, they sit down in a room in DC and the briefing begins, and goes on, and on.  And a powerpoint slide goes up listing sources of threat and one of the categories is "animal".

Animal?  says one of the client people.  What kind of threat are animals?  

Sheep, says the government man.  Sheep?  says the client person.

Exploding sheep, says the government man.  And goes on to describe, straight faced, a scenario in which terrorists strap explosives to sheep and herd them into the infrastructure in question.  The clients were, to say the least, flabbergasted.

The area in question is lousy with wolves, and to this day we call them sheep interceptors.

I hear, incidentally, that the Marines missed the camel. True?  Because, y'know, I could do the USMC a great deal on some sheep, er, camel interceptors ...  

Robin

Robin Bhatty <pike2bishop@cs.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:23:29 (ZULU)

<a recoil pad on a fine gun looked like someone in a tux wearing rubber boots>

Don’t know who said that, but I wish I had!

Wes,

My Dad had Chinchillas in the late 50’s, which I had to care for. We never got rich, but had some good laughs when some got out in the basement and our bulldog caught ‘em and brought ‘em back unharmed. Those suckers could run, but so could the bulldog.

CDC’,

No-one corrects my spelling of “CHILE”……it’s already correct…..they only offer their own misinformed opinion regarding an alternative spelling. Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do.

Brian,

Great talking with you. Don’t insult me or my East Tennessee kinfolk, though, by saying such things….we’re trashier than near about anybody. I’ve met more gentlemen in bib overhauls than all that ever wore three-piece suits in corporate America. Give me Jerry Clower and Marcel Ledbetter any time.

On Nutria:

Never ate one. Did eat a woodchuck, years ago. They were known as “Hoover Hogs” in the South during the Depression. A survivor of those times gave me the recipe.

Longer I cooked it, the worse it smelled. Had to open every window in the house. Finally removed the corpse from the crockpot and chowed down.

I’m gonna have to be damn hungry to eat another one. Anybody wants the recipe, contact me.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 20:44:30 (ZULU)

You guys up there in Oregon and Washington got them Nutria confused with Nauga! I've never ate one of them Nauga's but I think the fun is in the findin. (sorry ahead of time Maurius). Those I've talked too that ate them Nauga say they taste a lot like plastic but they chew like rubber. Hides ain't worth much either! But they have a knack for hidin. I've sure you've heard of a Nauga hide!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 21:16:42 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:05:19 (ZULU)

What's goin' on here? First we talk about Trounds, and the venerable Gyrojet, then chinchilla ranching, then Argosy, and now...Naugahyde???

Everybody's traipsing down memory lane ;))

Ain't nobody shootin' no more? Gotta go find me some nutria....

Cowboy <gregdial@sprynet.com>
Lampasas, TX, USA - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:17:25 (ZULU)

KEITH CAMARDO <BATCAM1@AOL.COM>
ST. MARYS, GA, US - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:22:50 (ZULU)

all this talk bout shooting nutricious rats or something, makes me remember that i am back doing homework in little ol' dutch country instead of hunting skunks and raccoons in beautifull kentucky...sh#t i wish i was still there...

about shooting raccoons, maybe one of you fine "BIG" predator rat sniping people can explain to me why it took me everytime 2 to 3 .22 hollow point bullets to kill a raccoon instead of 1?

(and nope, it was not poor marksmanship, every round hit what i was aiming for)

i mean, even a shot straight between the eyes would'nt kill em instantly, they would still be doing some breakdancing for a minute or 2 (ofcourse after the first time they never got the 2 minutes again cause i shot each of em twice more centre mass within 2 seconds), i guess raccoons and skunks are not good medulla shot excercise targets??

L8r,

Marco.

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 22:39:59 (ZULU)

Check out www.tacticalstocks.com/m40a1_kits.htm (bottom of the page) or just click on my name for the link. They have an M40A1 package deal in which you just send them an action and they put on a match grade barrel, not sure which one but it's on the site, a McMillan HTG stock pillar bedded, their floorplate, which looks like a Winchester Mod 70 like on the M40A1 but it's one piece so no bedding problems, and they also clipslot the action. It runs about $1150 I believe. Which isn't to bad if you can get a cheap action from WalMart or a used one then the whole thing shouldn't cost you more than $1400.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:28:11 (ZULU)

Had a local cowboy ask me if I'd been jacklightin deer on him? Said he had a report there were lots of spotlights flashin out on his  ranch land. Before I could say a word my partner said, "Hell no it weren't us, we use night vision!"  Thought you guys might enjoy that one!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:41:55 (ZULU)

I'm a longtime lurker w/a Rem 700P in .300 WinMag (Leupold MkIV M1 10x on top) and have an on-topic question and off-topic comment.

On topic: What's the closest reloaded approximation to the A-191 .300 WinMag? My buddy and I just went half-zies on a Dillon RL 550 that should be set up by Christmas, and bought full set-ups for 9mm, .223 and .300 WinMag...

Off topic: Just became a first-time Daddy, to the most beautiful girl in the world. While signing the pediatrician's forms for her first appointment recently (at a practice affiliated w/a major Chicago hospital), they asked for the usual family history stuff, a bunch of "yes/no" questions about who's had high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.

Here's a couple questions near the end:

"Are you concerned about your child's exposure to violence?  Y/N"

"Are there any guns in the home?   Y/N"

OK. So how the hell are you gonna answer the first one? Just to screw with them, I circled "No."

And for the second question, I just didn't feel it was one that needed to be answered, just on principle (we don't--thanks to Mayor Daley). I was waiting to go toe-to-toe with the Doc, but it never came up in discussion.

(sigh) It's disappointing to see the medical establishment firmly entrenched in politics...

Anyway, sorry to ramble. Thought you guys might find that interesting.

Derek

PS: 'Lito: See www.mycathatesyou.com  You'd get a kick out of it.

Derek Stickel <spike_226@hotmail.com>
Chicago, IL, - Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 23:46:26 (ZULU)

If you knew those guys within the last 10-15 years chances are decent I know them too. The funniest thing about this place is nobody ever escapes. The only problem with this really is, like every other small town in America, everybody knows everything about you or anything you ever did.

The biggest problem here is finding a place to shoot. Unless you know somebody with huge tracts of land your left with shooting along runs of high Tension wires. This is really only productive in the Fall or Winter. You can watch the Kudzu dominate in the Summer. Second to this is finding people to shoot with. I can get about 300m at one friends house, but those days are rare.

Will Camp Shelby let people drive onto the base to use the ranges there? I'm not so far from there that I couldn't make it a 1-2 day thing. I know the Navy looks down on bringing personally owned weapon onto the base. How does the army feel about it?

Any help is appreciated as always.

Chase

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 00:03:41 (ZULU)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$ZCS0W1QAADZTHQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/12/14/wbin14.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/12/14/ixhome.html

Rumsfeld says that Al Qaeda can surrender when they turn bin Laden over.  If they don't have him, they either find him or they die.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 00:31:58 (ZULU)

Can anyone post the URL to the site that carries the TGRT (?) data books that Gooch used to sell?  Would appreciate it, my son wants to order me one for Christmas.

Thanks

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 01:33:55 (ZULU)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 01:36:45 (ZULU)

Flu bug struck today. Just woke up and feel like recycled...whatever.

Better than earlier, though.

Bill, the Nauga's are on the endangered species list and if you are caught with the Hides you're in big trouble. On the bright side, the Asians and Hispanics are still shooting each other over Morell Mushrooms, and edible fungi, in our woods. The hobby mushroom hunters have just about given up the hunt because of this...

Poaching is a big problem, as well.

Seems to me they should issue five tags per year for US "sniper folk" to hunt these nerds. That would help the issue considerably.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 02:09:05 (ZULU)

DMAT/VMAT/DMORT members ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Recieved in an email last night!!!!!!!

=============

HR2333 was rewritten as HR3448 and passed!  about 90% of the content of what was in HR2333 is included in HR3448.  The bulk of what we all were waiting for!

I urge you to stop by the NADMAT web site and view the legislative

initiatives page

http://mediccom.org/public/NADMAT/default.htm

for more info.  Specific information and the full text of the bill can

be found at:

http://mediccom.org/public/NADMAT/leg.html

To summarize what this might mean to us as DMAT/VMAT/DMORT members (by

no means inclusive of all the topics in the bill).

1) Establishes new position of Assistant Secretary for Emergency

Preparedness to coordinate HHS activities under the new Act. Authorizes the National Disaster Medical System, under the new Assistant Secretary to provide for further National capacity during public health emergencies.

2) Provides grants for training and education for where there are

shortages in categories of health care professionals to respond to

public health emergencies.

3) Establishes National system to help verify the licenses, credentials and hospital privileges of health professionals who volunteer to respond during public health emergencies.

4) Provides flexibility to allow the Secretary of HHS to supply actual

supplies, equipment, or services instead of, or in conjunction with,

grants.

5) Authorizes the transfer of funds during public health emergencies

without lengthy waiting periods.

6) There is verbage that includes that workers comp and coverage for

injury includes during authorized drills and training, not just during a deployment.

HERE's the big one, employment rights while on deployment:

(3) EMPLOYMENT AND REEMPLOYMENT

RIGHTS.

(A) IN GENERAL.-Service as an intermittent disaster-response appointee

when the Secretary activates the National System or when the individual participates in a training program authorized by the Assistant Secretary for Emergency Preparedness or a comparable

official of any Federal agency specified in subsection (b)(2)(B) shall

be deemed 'service in the uniformed services' for purposes of chapter 43 of title 38, United States Code, pertaining to employment and

reemployment rights of individuals who have performed service in the

uniformed services (regardless of whether the individual receives compensation for such participation). All rights and obligations of such persons and procedures for assistance, enforcement, and investigation shall be as provided for in chapter 21 43 of title 38, United States Code.

(B) NOTICE OF ABSENCE FROM POSITION OF EMPLOYMENT.-Preclusion of giving notice of service by necessity of Service as an intermitent disaster-response appointee when the Secretary activates the National System shall be deemed preclusion by 'military necessity'for purposes of section 4312(b) of title 38, United States Code, pertaining to giving notice of absence from a position of employment. A Determination of such necessity shall be made by the Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense, and shall not be subject to judicial review.

The list goes on, and its quite exciting legislation as it means Big $$$ for NDMS and official recognition of the program after all these years!

Happy, happy, happy, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
Happy in...., NC, - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 02:29:20 (ZULU)

Looking for some experiance. Looking to modify an ARMALITE to 7mm short mag from Remm. Maybe 300 WSM, the result I am looking for is more long range punch while staying under MOA out to 800 meters. Who is capable of this modification, am I asking to much from the rifle or cartridge. Leaning towards 7mm.

Last topic is what do you think of a Kimber CDP Pro for a every day concealed carry in a suit and tye enviroment.

Regards, Thank you for the opinions.

Ryan <gasp@warwick.net>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 07:36:46 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, 20181 - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 03:46:14 (ZULU)

An Armalite to 300 Win. How about Win Short Magnum?  I wouldn't try it at home! What kind of Armalite are we talkin about for sure here?

This may be worse than shootin Nauga's afore it's over!  

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 04:06:51 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, December 14, 2001, at 04:16:12 (ZULU)

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 05:27:11 (ZULU)

After listening to me (and others) bitch about the ZULU Time Stamp, it is now on the money.

Ken knows how to manipulate those one's and zero's.

Hell, I'd bitch if I was hung with a new rope. Just glad we got somebody like Ken to run this site and humor my cranky ass.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 14, 2001, at 05:35:01 (ZULU)

          Can't do nothin' about the endangered status of them Naugas' but if its just the hides you want, go down to the closest auto graveyard and start pickin' around the 1960's era Pontiacs;-). Next thing you know we'll be huntin' Chias!

Marco, newbie to 'coon huntin, they'