Sniper Country Duty Roster

December 28, 2000 - December 31, 2000


Yote Bait: you're wrong there! I can make hits at a measured mile with the M-25, it's just a "specialized mission" tool. For instance: if you were to have a soviet tank, with a company of men in front, on top, etc packed in tight for a staged "company picture", with a VERY slow camera man saying "don't move, wait wait!" while he's got incoming, I could make a hit! After all, some wise old 'yote hunter once told me "a bullet has to go somewhere" ;-) You sure that he didn't say that a guy carrying an AK was in a one mile wide kill zone? Maybe an AK-4 is some new type of tank and we're just too stooooopid to know it. Or it could be that our biased inane communistic putrifying media is doing it's standard job. The lousy bastards.

Sir Wes: Just called the local hardware store, they've got RamShot Big Boy for $17.99 per pound, plus tax. Let me know how much you want, it'll be sent off tomorrow after work. Unless that's expensive ;-) You're out of luck on the N-165 though. Can't get N-135 or 175 SMK's within a 180 mile radius, don't see why N-165 would be different. Can check though if you want, I know a place that keeps VERY LITTLE of it on hand. Probably be cheaper to get the Vihta elsewhere. Dunno anyone that carries RamShot for order, but plenty do the Vihta.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with a stinking rotten banana media, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 00:56:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.210)


Ok, just gotta post some good stuff about Champion Shooters (www.championshooters.com). I Ordered a Fields Military Sling (Black for my new 700P) Monday morning. It was shipped out Monday and got here Today. If you need a Turner or Fields sling, give them a call =)
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
The Arctic North East, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 00:57:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.131.220)
Jen: We're UnDude sling users. With these heavy beasts, they really are the way to go for field use.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 01:03:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)


Im planning to purchase a new rifle scope & Im casting my vote for a Gen3, Springfield armory scope w/ its full features. the price seems very convincing. The only apprehension is the "track record" compared to Leupold, is there any SWAT teams out there using it.
Pls. help. Thanks a lot!!! Happy New Year
Rey Mariano <paltik@specialoperations.com>
Dal, Ca, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 01:07:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.8.224.85)
Guess Who Wants To Be A Long Range Shooter?

Took my number one daughter out to the range today with the gas gun and the bolt gun. This was Jennifer's first time with a gun.

First up was the Colt R6551. With the iron sights, she did quite well at 100 yards. The only problem was the buttstock was too long for her small frame.

Then we took out the .308 Remy 700 Police. BLAM! Backwards she goes three inches! Jen only weighs 100 pounds dripping wet. But she is now in love with this big black gun and getting four inch groupings to boot! What a hoot!

I may have created a monster! HA!

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 01:23:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.159)


ADAM: Any idea on where I can find info on that 'POD-LOC' thingy? I couldn't find it on the site.
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 01:34:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.131.220)
CDC: Ok, you got me.. what's an UnDude sling?
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 01:40:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.131.220)
GREAT NEWS!!!!!!

"Jen" shoots like a dream...finally took her out today to see what she's like. Half the recoil that my Ruger had, and 1/2 MOA to boot!!! Even with factory loads!!! Tightest groups I've ever shot. Man, I can't wait to put some hand loads through her, and see how she does out to 1000yds. Just wanted you guys to share my jubilation, and I hope you all had a merry christmas!!!!

Ben
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 01:40:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.166.140)


Terry,

Sure nothing wrong with the long NM-70 and the 6.5X.284. It might require some minor adjustments to the magazine box for magazine feed,(when switching from .270W to 6.5X.284) but surely nothing drastic.

One of my shooting buddies has a A-2 McMillan stocked NM-70 that was converted from a 300WM to the 6.5X.284 and it is a real hummer. He shot it as an F-Class rifle for a season and has since started using it in prone iron/any competition. I know it is not configured well for that use but he does quite well with it.

The load I use in my trashy old Musgrave is actually 53.5 grains of N-165 and the (no moly)bullet this year was a 141 Cauterucio. The buddy that shoots the NM-70 uses the same load with the 142 SMK. Another friend (M-700 Funnygun) uses N-165 and AA MR-3100 with the 142's. Sorry that I can't remember the AA load he uses but I think around 51 grains. All barrels are Krieger. Mine an 8" twist and the rest 8.5".

Wes,

I tried a half dozen times to answer your case sizing question several weeks ago and it bounced every time. The address was proper but no workie
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Frozen , SE - IL, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 01:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.189.22.172)


Ben: Good To Hear, otherwise I might have insisted you change her name ;)
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 01:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.131.220)
Jen: try here: http://www.tacticalintervention.com/
The slings are made by our very own friend (and my Patron) Mike the UnDude. I wouldn't think a true sniper rifle complete without his sling, and have said so several times. I've used Turners for YEARS, and they're great slings. I keep mine for CMP stuff, 'cause the UnDude's sling makes an "unfair advantage" and is disqualification stuff ;-)
Shooting DEAD ON 100% bulls with his sling is only natural, right Mike? Seriously, you owe it to yourself to give it a go. After shooting with the Turners (and getting somewhat good with them if I do say so), I didn't feel a need to experiment with other makes. I was "convinced" to try some, and like Varget and 175 SMK's, there's no turning back for me! When you're ready for the mildot master speech, let me know HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 02:21:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.210)
Ken,
I can't do a .308 Towed, I don't have arms as big as a 55 gallon drum!!!!!!!........( do you carry this dude for working out?, or WHat???).
I'll have to settle for anudder 15/17# job!!!!

Bill Wylde, thanks for the feedback, like to see you here!. 1-8 twist she'll be.....

Wes, who did your reamer, and what are the specs?, you can offline if you wish.......IF you got the time.

Brav, yes sir,after several M40's, you are indeed correct, I do know about the Wichita's........haven't seen any better.
Had the same experience as you, the AA3100, did fine on SD, ES, but didn't cut it on the accuracy, on a .300 WM.
Will, have made a note on the op rod.............

Jen, you didn't ask me, but the Undude sling is made by the DR's own Mr. Mike Miller............

Moe, is it just me, or are we getting overload on the Jen's around here???????.......keep her on the line, we need ALL the help we can get........just love it when women love weapons, esp if they aren't pointed MY way!!!!!

Good Jen, NO offense, LOVE the name ............

Thanks for all the input, you guy's are great......

Two Shoes
Back to ice, and freezing rain in Tejas..was good for the 2-3 hours it lasted!!!!( NONE!)
 
 
 
 

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 02:22:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.188)


Bravo;my man you have it right. Thanks for straightening me out. 1mile X 1 mile that's the group size. I got it now. That's why I come here.
Bob; Oh my, Oh my, you have a What that's 50 years old, that's never been fired. I presume this to be a pre 64.Winchester.. If that gun is physically mint I would never never never change anything on it. You can buy yourself a PSS easily with what it would bring. Or maybe a new Winchester Stealth. Of course by now you have 50 offers to help you dispose of it. Anyway... If you want to get into this "black art" I would probably just get a PSS and start from there. The old Win's were not magic as to accuracy but they do OK. I once went into a Hardware store going out of business, in Liberal Kansas. They had every pre 64 Model 70 caliber out at the time from .375 down and a couple of heavy barrels. Close out $150.00 each....What would I want with a bunch of Winchesters... they didn't shoot as good as Remingtons ... ? Oh well.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 02:50:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

 

For anyone interested, the new Guns magazine "Combat" Annual for 2001 has a rather good article on Countersnipers, with a review of all the basic countersniper-capable rifles as part of the magazine. Most of you probably don't need it, but for someone getting started in long-range it would be a good read.
 

Have fun, stay warm (it's snowing in WACO! Odds of that happening are about that of Gore joining IPSC).
Brian Fulton <blfulton45@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 05:37:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.131.100)


Jesus Bill!
That's worse than the time me and a buddy were driving to Ft Bragg, stopped at a gas station and saw this guy with a 1968 Charger R/T. 440/4-speed, forest green with the white R/T stripes. I talked to the owner a little bit, he asked me if I wanted to buy it. He asked $4000(it was a very nice car, worth $8-$10k easy in 1994), and I said I couldn't afford it(Navy fed would have jumped all over themselves giving me the loan) since I figured I was going to buy a computer instead(there's a good alternative to just setting money on fire). Happily, I've smartened up a little bit since then. I've not let a single good gun deal go by(Got a 40x for Christmas). These Raman noodles are starting to taste pretty good too. Semper Fidelis...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 05:58:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)
Happy Holidays,

I had the pleasure/luck of acquiring 1 Mauser sp66 .308 today as a "self Christmas present". I had to do it, it looks unfired in and out. Went to the range and turned some heads, the performance is amazing. It is by far, the most comfortable system i have ever fired. It has a ZF 6x42 that works extremely well. This year i lucked out. probably a ZF 10x42 would be a better fit but have no idea where to find one at a decent price in the States.
Happy Holidays,
Fred
 
 
 

Fred <xanembo@aol.com>
MIA, FL, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 06:20:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.167)


TWIMC-

Just got a Sako TRG-S (M995) in .338 Lapua Magnum. Great looking too, like all Sakos. Need some advice on optics.
As you all must suspect, I blew my budget (and another gilfriend/relationship - oh well - ) getting my new rifle. I ve been Leopold all the way for 15 yrs. Looking at a budget minded Tasco SS20x42m. Anyone have any exper. with one, or opinions?

thanks
CMP

Cameron <grummanf7f@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 08:12:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.126.158)


Jen,
Check out the "In Review" section under miscellaneous for info on the PodLoc thingee.
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 13:07:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.90)
I will check the roster before asking my question.

JJB
Jimmy-B <jim.bruggy@grace.com>
baltimore, md, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 15:58:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.191.12.233)


Success!!

I just received from Brownells my ultra-high Badger Rings.
They are mounted and torqued to 65 inlb.
I'm stripping camo paint from the scope before final mounting.
The GG&G flip-ups fit under the scope with room to spare.
The height of the scope is more comfortable than the previous mount.
Eye relief is "good to go".

Now when my bolt, carrier & handle arrive I'll be ready to slip into my snowsuit and go shoot it.

Wooooohooooo!!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 18:09:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.207)


Bill,
Thanks for the reply! I was with my dad when he purchased this Mod.70, Win. for 149 books of S&H Green stamps. This was his big investment and prize since about 1950 or 51. The box got hit with the vaccume cleaner too many times under my Dad's bed and turned to pulp. He bought a hand-tooled, Mexican gun case and through the box out. It has sat in his closet, unfired, and untouched other than to show it to his buddies when they inquired about his arsenal. It had no "familiar contact" with my Dad and with his passing last March, I inherrited it. If my Dad had used it, modified it, hunted with it, refinished the stock......I would have an attachment for it, but to be honest, to own a weapon for 50 years and never shoot it is NOT ME. I'm 55 and have hunted all my life, put 6 in the USN from '62 - '68, was a cop for 14 years, 200 years ago and could retire very comfortably on the money I've spent on shoulder weapons and side arms. The Lord has never blessed me with an income allowing me to own more than a very few guns at a time. Right now, I'm moving from Phoenix to my sons location in Chattanooga, Tn. I want a good long range sniper weapon I can hunt with and use for LR rifle shooting. My eyes are not good enough to keep shooting hanguns compeditively, so I want and need to go to shoulder arms for my enjoyment.

I want a Rem. 700, in .308 either in the LWT 20", or the standard 24" or 26" heavy barrel. Your posts on the 700 Sendaro and 700 VS in another location are quite interresting. I definately want the full length bedding block, but do not care for the wide, "beaver-tail" style forestock. Parkerized or matte blue makes no difference to me. I can get a 700 PSS, with the three wide flutes, parkerized, with I believe a B-Square one-piece base, and a Nikon 3.5x10 optics, with the butler Creek flip-caps "USED" in a local gun shop I know, for around $875. The clerk's eyes widdened when I mentioned a Mod 70, 50 years old unfired and asked about trading. I know the gun is valuable, but only to a Winchester buff, or collector. I'm tired of getting screwed by gun shops and always having something only a very small group of individuals would want. What do you think?
BOB OATES <setao@uswest.net>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 18:27:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.225.196.98)


Rostermaids,

I was lucky and Santa brought me a new spotting scope tripod.

Now I dont have to look like a huntchback when spotting for my buddies or flaming sniper puppies during a stalk.

The tripod is the type that has the quick detachable plate with the prism (looks like the bottom slice of a pyramid) on the bottom. I have asked a friend that runs a CNC mill in a platic shop to make me some adaptors. One will be with a U shaped rifle rest, the other a bar onto which I can mount my Kowa and next to it my 1000P Laser rangefinder and I am thinking about a slot for a compass as well.

That way I could range, spot, and give a heading all in one setup.

Thoughts on this ? anything I forgot ?

I already balanced the three gadgets on a ruler to find the mutual point of gravity.

Will take pics and post them when its completed.

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
in melting, dripping, soggy,, just plain juck , deutschland - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 19:38:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.154)


I'm looking for the "bear suit" polypropylene liners for the ECWS gear. Anybody know where I can get them?
Bill <BCP421@NETZERO.NET>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 20:36:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.23.0.182)
Thanks for the kind words and questions about slings. Quick and dirty approach to my slings. If you have fixed swivels ala M40 or M14 get a model two military sling. If you have Quick Detachable type ala M24 PSS etc get a MOdel One Military Sling. That simple. PS get the cuff up grade if you low crawl in brush or carry a pack.

My design is basaed on getting into and out of teh old leather types and looking for a better mouse trap. I know I have found it.

Well the Christmas holiday is over and I have orders to fill. Bye for now

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 21:04:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.46)


Bill, Ken M.......

Hate to tell off on myself, But...............

About a year and a half ago, I stumbled into a local Pistol range that I frequent, checking for deals, and seeing if any bargains were around.( This was 12:00 noon).

To my surprise, was a Green Aug, w/ carry case, and 6 new hi-cap mags.
Condition approx 98%, on the Aug.

I had spent a wad in the previous months, and thought well I really don't NEED it, but for $1,500.00 + tax, it could be mine.
I knew this was a good price, but, thought I would go eat lunch and think it over.

I didn't think long........about a 30 minute turn around......

Back with the cash.............GONE.

I had been the FIRST to see it, and the second person was smarter than I, and grabbed it on the spot.( NO kiddin' Sherlock!!..DOH!!!).

The shop charged a 5% extra charge for credit cards, hence I was getting cash............cost me at least $1,500.00 profit, and or an Aug for my St*(&^%*(&% self...........

That's MY one that got away..........trying to save 5 lousy %......:(

Color me a D A in Tejas.......
Two Shoes
Any other D A stories out there, sniff, sniff!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 21:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.24)


RE: .338 Lapua Mag.

I've been out of town and trying to catch up on some reading here in the duty roster. I noticed a few posts made about the .338 LM, I have just tested the a DSR-1 .338 LM with the military 28.5" barrel. It was tested and compared with the Erma sr100. Same accuracy. Beyond the (800-1400M) the only way we knew we hit the 3/4" (thick) metal target, was the spark it emitted when the AP ammo was used. Both systems were compared with 250gr and 300gr. Against a 7' x 10' target (3/4" metal). it is fairly easy to hit the target to 800m. A US optics sn3 was used. i belive it was a 6x22. not sure, the tube was 34mm, and the objective i belive was 70 or 80.something it that vicinity. To make a long story short, i ordered the DSR N.1.

Regards,
Fred
 

Fred <xanembo@aol.com>
MIA, FL, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 21:43:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.61)


Good afternoon everyone. I have a quick question for you guys. How effective do you think a .308 round would be on a 300 lb. ferrule hog at 300 yds. My boss has ferrule hogs on his land and they are tearing the land up. The way that I figure it is that 300 yds and closer is about the range that I will be firing from. Some of the hogs are larger than 300 lbs. Thanks Tyler
Tyler Hand <thand@masonryarts.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 22:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.62.57.253)
Tyler: If I were to handload for feral hog hunting with one of my .308s, I would use Varget with 180 grain Nosler partitions. If I were to use factory loads, I would use Federal premium 180 grain Noslers. Either way, the hog would be in trouble.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 22:52:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)


Tyler,

Any decent .308 (Premium line) round should be adequate for the job. I'd make real sure that placement is e-x-a-c-t! A pissed off FERAL pig/hog is nothing to play around with......
 

Kevin(Andys Dad)

Glad you got some of the goodies, keep us updated on the progress.
 

Torsten,

Neat concept, I LIKE it!
 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, December 28, 2000 at 22:56:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.193)


What is the best factory 308, 175 gr. load? I have been pleased with the Federal up to this point but I have tried nothing else. I only consider changing after getting some suspect chronograph numbers the other day. It seems that though the 175 is more consistant in terms of bullets and case weights, not to mention powder charges it is not as consistant as the 168 load velocity wise? I have run a small sample of each load from differant lots so I do not suspect a crummy batch. Not that it is really that bad mind you but if I am out of the loop on the factory scoop due to name recognition I would sure like to know about it. Any information on this would be helpfull.
Matt <snipermattone@aol.com>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 01:14:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.178)
I just found a site selling a new B&L Tactical for $1049 Canadian. If you've been wanting one, the site is http://www.wholesalesports.com/webspec.htm

They've got other specials, too. Some Rem VLS's in 260 for example.

Doug

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
St. Paul, MN, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 01:39:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3)


Regarding hunting feral hogs with .308. I have some experience here judging by my freezer. Seems that 3 of them wandered into my front yard a month ago (I live in the boonies). I used my M1A on them. I had FMJ in the clip at the time, and it did the job. I dropped all 3 of them with 4 shots. 2 of them I hit in the head. The third one took off at a run and I gut shot him. Finished him off with a shot to the head. All of this was at about 75 yards, firing from a standing position. With .308, a well placed shot will drop them, period.
John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 01:45:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.174.120)
One more thing, Chriscurt: Is that ISU.EDU in your email address the same ISU that is in THI?
John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, Taxes, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 01:48:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.174.120)
Hey kids, Happy Holidays!!
 
 

Trigger, easy now,
 
 

you said:
 
 


 

Thanks for the cut!! heheh... Ken makes very fine barrels, but even
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 01:56:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.14)


Hey kids, Happy Holidays!!

Trigger, easy now,

you said:

"Both the H&S and the McBros use their own proprietary actions and both are very good. The H&S 2000 and the McBros Talon actions are their own design and take the best of current available market actions. The edge would go to the McBros gun because they would be using the Ken Johnson K&P barrels. In .50 caliber benchrest competition, these barrels are the standard."

---Thanks for the cut!! heheh... Ken makes very fine barrels, but even "the standard" gets barrels from "the guru" ;P . One of these days I may make a 50 cal bench barrel, right now I'm too busy supplying 50 cal ballistic test barrels to governments in Norvay, Svenska, Australia, Canada, hell you get my point. But I'm sure they'd shoot with the best of 'em. Ken's better set up for the BR crowd, out in Raton, but I've got the ballistic test barrel market, and that's fine with me. I do wanna belly up to his 50's, they are schaaa-weeet, his clam's work well and they do put on a good show, and shoot by-gawd.

PeteR:

375 H&H 400 grainer, somewheres 'round 2400 fps, I can get details. shot 0.18" groups, all the tine.

338 lapooa's:

gotta gotta get at least a 28" barrel kids, 30" finish is damn fine, but 28" gets ya home
 

later kids
jr <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapidly windy, south dakota, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 01:58:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.14)


Aaargh!!!!!!
I finally got enough saved up to order a Texas Guns 20" customized Remmy 700VS. Called them yesterday to place the order and was informed that there were none in stock and Friday would be their last day in business!!!!!!! Couldn't find a VS or a Stealth anywhere so I'm going with a Savage Tactical. I may chop it to 20" just to make me feel better; but I don't have a way to flute it. Next time I'll break out the plastic and fight with my lady later.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The white & frosty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 02:10:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.73.108)
Soooo, we're back to the 338LM. Our newest prototypes are almost done. New bolt locking and camming system. Yes, it's a semi. Bolt gun is in the works. Shot one of the new proto's today. Using my handloads and factory 250g Lapua Lockbase, it got 3" at 500m. 7 1/4" at 1000m. I'm not the greatest reader of the wind, all my stuff is 50cal. But this 338 smokes! Undude, I see a test in your future!

'Lito,

We are getting a new upgraded scope for you to test out. We will have it after the first of the year. Got the ok from the boss to send you one. Will have a set of rings for it also. The scope uses 32mm rings. I'll send a set of 30's also. Sorry I haven't sent the 50 brass. We have been pretty tight on it lately. Boss made a deal with a reloader for the lion's share of it. Will still get some, some how, some way.

Where's Al O? Groundhog and egg shoot is just around the corner. The wife wants to aggravate him some more.
 
 

Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 02:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.117.8)


Tyler and feral hogs,

Ditto what PeteR said. The .308 will do the job if you place your shot correctly. Just make damn sure you finish him and don't just piss him off when he's close enough to come at you for a little payback. Also, I wouldn't recommend hitting a hog only to watch him run off into the brush (especially since you're talking about taking longer shots). Definitely don't want to have to go in after him. Get a clean kill shot, or don't pull the trigger.

Buy whatever you can with that two cents,
Roger
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Bush country, Baby!, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 02:20:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.52.177.109)


what is the best factory 308 175 gr. load?
matt <snipermattone@aol.com>
co, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 02:36:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.161)
Bob, Winchester Bob, I might suggest you get a can of VARGET and some Match Kings 175 or 168 gr., put a good scope on that Pre-64. Wouldn't it be nice if you have an old Unertl but they cost more than a pre-64. With a Bedding job on that old Winchester you might be surprised with a fairly good scope like say a 4.5X14X40 or 3.5X10X40 Mil Dot Leupold what the old beast would do. I wouldn't be ashamed to step to a 1000 yard course and give it a shot. Don't alter the looks of the gun though or change the barrel and you'll still have a nice shall we say "period piece". That gun if kept nice will still bring a good collector price. sigh! Those were the good old days. If I had that gun I'd put my old Lyman Alaskan on it.... ... What a piece of history those things are.
Yikes Doc, well take heart that Savage will work better than you dream. Their system is pretty accurate if that scout was any indication. A little trigger fiddle and you'll have some fun with that baby. I'd cut her butt to 22". or less and let the good times begin!
CDC; your right about the hog bullet! Where it's hogs big bullets is best. Whuuump! The .308 with 180 or thereabouts is a awesome stopper at hog ranges.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 02:46:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Lady and Gents*,

*Note: I use that term in it's loosest connotation...*

I've been asked repeatedly for the name of the maker who made the reamer for my 6.5 X .284 rifle project.

His name is Dave Kiff.
Pacific Precision Grinding
P.O. Box 2549
White City, OR 97503
Phone: 541-826-5808
Fax: 541-826-5304

This reamer is made specifically for use with the 142 grain Sierra Match King bullet and an OAL of 2.980". It's made to Black Hill's Ammunition Specification and matches their factory ammo.

If you have any other questions feel free to send me an e-mail.

**An unsubstantiated message and personal experience is starting to indicate Norma Brass may be soft and flow. I'm starting to see this in some loads. Several other .308 shooters tried it and went back to Federal with the same comment. Can anyone out there substantiate that?

In the meantime I'm going to neck down some Winchester .284 brass and see what happens.

Bill Wylde indicated that all he and his fellow shooters use is Winchester and they're getting GREAT results in the 6.5 X .284.

Semper Fi,

Wes

What's all this talk about .338 Lapua? Sweet Jesus, why don't you just get something with wheels and a lanyard!
 

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 03:17:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.72)


OK,

After loading up a years worth of proven 308 and 223 rounds, some experimental benchmark .223 and some varget powered .260, I'm ready for the range... I turn on the weather channel and it occurs to me that this is the coldest darn early winter I can recall in my short life (well... short compared to most of you hogs)...since when does New Jersey get forcasts in the "foot+ of snow" range in December?!?

Anyway, I really signed on the board to remind you that this is a classic time for dipwads with too much alcohol on board to take to the roads, killing innocents. PLEASE, beware the dufus... we've had three really bad wrecks just on my little piece of the wall in the last four days, all real ugly, all alcohol related...keep you and yours safe!

There are too few of you and I really enjoy the "my M14 is better than your m40" exchanges! 

OH, and PeteR, don't think I missed that hazmat crack a while back... just wait till Storm next year, you may find your ghillie glows or something...
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 03:18:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


Pablito: I've been eyeing electronic powder scales, and I'd like a few more comments on your choice of the big Lyman electronic powder scale and what you didn't like about the Dillon scale. Any others you have experience with? Advice is much appreciated, since I only want to spend the money once. Thanks. Jerry.
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 03:20:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.10.31.231)
Matt: if the 175's give you deviations you don't see with the 168's, then something is up. The 175 has slightly less bearing surface area than the 168, and they drive WELL, no difference between them on the chamber end that I've seen (BARELY!). I'm getting 8 fps as a standard deviation from my loads with them, and that's from one of those "lousy gas guns". For out to 500 yards, the 168 is just as good, but after that, it's 175's for me! You'll be surprised if you shoot them side by side. My guess is that you're not using an Oehler chrono, and getting bad dope. Want a good "sure way" to test? Chuck 5 175's in, then 5 168's, 5 175's, 5 168's. That'll fill your mag ;-) Run all the 168's at one target, all the 175's at another. I'll bet at 500 and under, you won't see any vertical stringing, indicative of velocity deviations, and virtually the same group size.

Torsten: my e-mail getting through or is it acting up again?

Ken M: I'm no longer going to be nice to you! A 440, and you let it slip away?!? Man, that's HARSH. That's one of the top 4 powerplants of all time (half Ford, half Mopar). That's the block they used in the Superbird, the only car to average over 200 MPH at the races. DOH!

Winchester Bob: I second what Wild Bill said. It's built to shoot, and there's a reason they called it the "rifleman's rifle". I love those old claw extractor Winchesters, they've *ALWAYS* been good to me. But I used them for hunting, not targets. I bet others here will agree too.

Feral hogs: I like the 180 in the 30-06 for most everything bigger than deer. Nossler partitions. I run the slightly lighter weight in the 308, but it's personal preference. 165 partitions will do well on the lesser stuff (javalina), but they're not 300 pounds either. Go with CDC's info.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 03:39:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.216)


Seasons Greetings to everyone,

Been off line for a few months and I know this has topic has probably been beat to death, but Iíll ask one more time. Seeing that Mrs. Santa and Bass Pro shops were good to me at x-mas and I have enough for one of those Laser Range finders for under $400.00. Now the question, which one is your best bet for the money, Bushnellís compact 1000 yrd, Nikonís Buckmaster 800 or Leicaís 800 yrd model? Last I heard Leica had recalled their fist models because they were crap. Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison to see which one came out on top? Anyway, give me your feedback and may everyone have a Happy New Years!

Jeff

Jeff <jeff.harmon@acterna.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 03:40:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.22)


John .338 wrote: "One more thing, Chriscurt: Is that ISU.EDU in your email address the same ISU that is in THI?"

Answer: Beats me. I don't know what THI? is.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 04:17:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)


Any other D A stories out there, sniff, sniff!!!<<<<<

Since we're doing bad timing stories, here's one from my father. He sold a Steyr AUG(one of the first into the country) and Thompson 1928A1(with the violin case and a couple 50rd drums and some 32rd sticks) and a Tippman 1/2 scale M1919 machine gun in 22LR two weeks before Bush Sr did his first import ban. He still made money from the sale, but if he'd waited two weeks he could have made a KILLING. I wouldn't have had to join the USMC to pay for college(kidding, I'd probably have done it anyway). Me, I don't sell guns. I occasionally trade them. Last gun I traded was a EAA Witness($325gun) in 45ACP for a Safariland Cover 6 entry vest with the Class IIIA hyperlite panels(about a $1250 vest), it's overseas right now with a buddy of mine.
About that pre-64, put a scope(3-9x40 leupold on mine) on it and shoot it. See how it does. My pre-64 in 30-06 averages about 3/4 inch at 100yds with 180gn Sierra SBT's and IMR-4064. It's a wimp load(2625fps) but shoots well and it does everything I need it to do. You may be surprised. Depending on when it was made, a pre-64 30-06 in mint condition is worth anywhere from $1000 on up, depending on what someone's willing to pay.
Bravo, I'm not too worried about missing the 440, it's the 4 speed that I feel bad about. I was looking at a 69 Charger a couple of monthes ago, 440 and the 727 Torqueflite, it's just not the same as a 4-speed. I need to work the gears myself. Torqueflites are the best of the slush boxes, but a real car needs a stick. Honestly, I'm thinking a nice aluminum head 360 at about 400HP would be a fun engine too. Save a little money on gas, I hope. Semper Fidelis...

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 05:15:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.97)


Sir Wes,

It has been my experience that what you stated is correct.

On the Norma brass, it is soft, but not any more so than Federal match.

In order of softness, IMH Experience........

Federal GM
Norma
Lapua
IMI Match, ( basically mil-spec).

I've not tried Rem, nor Win extensively.

Out of all American case mfgr's, I say Winchester is the best, as far as concentricity is concerned.

Fed G M is the worst.

Suprisingly, IMI Match .308 is very consistent.

Lapua, is the best......period.

This has been my experience with the above mentioned cases, others may have a different opinion........

fwiw.......
Two Shoes
Preppin' brass in Tejas.....

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 05:17:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.49)


Fellas,

I'm new to the roster and need a little advice. My shooting background is in Highpower service rifle with M-14's while in the army and three position smallbore before that (never shot beyond 600 yards). I've never done any kind of long range scoped bolt gun comps before but I am very interested in getting started. I understand there is such a shoot in the Sacramento area on the first Sunday of the month and I'd like to build a rifle for it. I can't afford the really cool custom stuff you guys talk about so I was thinking of a 700 barreled action in an A-4 stock with a Leupold MK4 in .308. Sound good for the money? Also, I would like to know what you think of the Steyr SSG. I couldn't find any words on it in the hot tips or archives (maybe I didn't look enough?). I understand it comes with some type of scope and can be found for about 1800-2000 bucks.

Any additional comments for a rookie starting in this area would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Marc <MSoulie@home.com>
North, CA, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 06:46:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.20.31.198)


This question may be a little out of the ordinary for a sniper topic forum, but the rifles are appropriate. I have an elk hunt scheduled in Wyoming next fall, and I am curious if I need to purchase a rifle in a caliber more appropriate that .308 Win. I field a an M21 with a 3.5-10x M3, and an ArmaLite AR-10A2 with 4x Trijicon for social purposes. Without the expected lashing for being a semi-auto guy, can .308 work for a deer the size of a VW? I don't what to shell out bucks from my personally financed weapons budget for something with such limited use potential as a Remingon 700 in 338. I looked at a 700P in .300 Win. Mag., but it is a tank of a rifle. I would feel alot beeter about using a rifle I train with rather than learn an entirely new operating system, but I asked so tell me the deal. Can .308 do the job?
Eric Cryar <ericcryar@aol.com>
Riverside, Ca, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 09:28:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.173)
Wes, go with the Win brass over the Norma, My 6.5x284 likes the Win better by about 200 fps.
Jerry, the Dillon Determinator scale I have/ used for a year has been flawless.
Jeff, my 1000 yard Yardage pro will read past 1200 yards at daybreak/ dusk and about 700+- mid day to a hard target.
Eric, I shot an elk with my 308 at 498 yards one shot thru the liver, he went 50 yards and laid down. Took a follow up shot to finish him off [point blank]. I was using hand loads with 165 Serria btsp at 2850 fps. If the elk are not under a lot of pressure and don't need to be anchored the 308 with the right bullet placement will do the job. If the hunting will be under less than ideal conditions I would want at least a 300 mag. If you are comfy with the AR-10 that would be a good a bet as any what with the follow up shot[s].
See ya Jim the Plumber
Ps the 6.5x284 is a Rem 700 trued long action, ss, Jewell trigger, MP-3 on the guts, 28" Schneider ss fluted bbl with a Vais brake, max varmint contour,HS PSS stock, Leupold 8.5x25 long range 30x50mm
with Leupold dot.Will keep 4 shots in 2.5" at 600 yards.
[GOD won't let me have a good 5 shot group so 4 it is]
Jim the Plumber <jaf666@nwi.net>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 10:18:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.39.22.78)
Gooch & Kevin (of the GWN)

I know that each year near Ottawa there is a week of long range rifle matches. I can get all the details from the Canadian "NRA" (DCRA)website.

I believe there are also "Canadian Forces" matches where there are sniper events. How does a civilian get into those matches? Who do I contact?

Ottawa is only a few hours away from here and I think that it would be a great experience for "Team Mussack".

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 13:11:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)


Haven't tried Norma Brass Bravo but I use Federal and Winchester both without a preference. If anything the Winchester Ammo seems to be really about as accurate as anything. So I buy it to get the brass pretty often.
I have a friend (old mountain man this ole boy in his 60's hunted Big Horns in Colorado 19 days straight, makes me tired to think of it)who used a SAVAGE 99 in .308 to kill Elk for over 40 years. I got him started in a .300 Win mag 700 Remington and he thinks he is in heaven but ner the less the .308 served him well by looking at his wall. The 30-06 wasn't favored by the likes of Elmer Keith because in the most part he hunted from horse back and didn't like big trophies getting away. They would often quarter away and needed a real stopper. A man that hunts on foot and stalks is more likely to get side shots and be placing the bullet a bit better. But Elmer thought the 30-06 to be a good jack rabbit and Antelope gun. I've seen several Elk Taken with it and good hits produce kills. Once saw a dude guy fire 13 shots at a over 400 score Bull over a 2 mile chase (horseback)with a .338 and miss every shot. The bull finally was taken by his 760 Remington auto 30-06 with one shot through both shoulders leaning it on a fence post. Yeah, yer right it was funny to watch him flinch and miss. Morale @never borrow someones cannon you've never shot before.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 13:15:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Doc...
If they're going out of Business on Friday, maybe there's a message in there somewhere... the Sky Spirit may be lookin' out for you ;))
 

Matt...
There is "NO" best factory load!! Anyone that tells you otherwise, is either getting a commission, or is shovelin' it!
There are reputable factory loads... Federal, Winchester, Blackhills, etc, and your riffle may like one over the other, but it won't be the same one that someone elses riffle likes... take back all the soda bottles in the garage for the deposit, and get a few boxes of whatever you can, and you will know what the "Best factory" load is, for your gun!
Also, you can't make a determination on variation of a load, by chrono'ing five or ten rounds... it's meaningless!
You need strings of 20 or more to make that determation, and remember that an ES of 20 to 25 is common (and acceptable, sorta!), in this stuff.

Also... while collecting data is fun, and informative (if you understand what that data "REALLY" means)... in the end, you gotta drag your raggity assed smoke pole out, and ring some steel, or it don't count!!
 

Nom de' Plume...
I used to like Federal, and still have one 25 year old batch of nickel plate that is good, and I use in a bolt gun.
But I don't buy Fed anymore, and have a few thousand pieces of recent stuff collecting dust, that will eventually wind up as gas gun ammo, and be left in the grass.

My current favorites are Lapua, and Winchester and LC... I've never had a bad case from any of them... and also IMI in military calibres, if I can find it... got 4000 pcs of IMI .308 match last year, and I like it.
When you get Lake City, you are getting "Winchester"... cuz Winchester is the civilian contractor at Lake City, and they know their collective brass poo-poo!!

Jersey Jim...
MAN!!! You MUST be young, if you don't remember the REALLY BIG December snow storm of '87...
(1887, that is ;).
Me and The Scooter are getting food and stuff today, we're supposed to get "Whacked" like you.

Jerry Stordahl...
I've been through a few electronis scales... the little RCBS/Pact is junk, and they just about tell you that in the instructions, with a dozen warnings about all the possible error problems you can have (like breathing in the same room with it ;)
Stay away from ANY of the small scales... it's a matter of the sensor, and internal machanics! I don't know why, but all the little scales use a different sensor, that is junk... the bigger scales use a different sensor.

The big RCBS/Pact is real nice, and very accurate... but won't run on batteries, (I develope loads at the range), so I sold it to a nice fella on the Roster, but it got smushed in transit :(.
It's very accurate, always starts up on "0", and is well made. If I didn't need battery operation, I would have been real happy with it... plus it has that infra red thingie that works with an automatic powder measure, which I can't speak to.

So I got a Dillon... POS! It never starts on "0", always has to be zeroed, and re-zeroed, and re-zeroed, and re-zeroed... and even though it has been inside, and the temperature is stable, it wanders +/- about a grain, and has to be rezeroed over and over!! :((...
It may take a while to settle in, but I don't know how long it takes, cuz it's never settled in for me... however it may just be a dog, and every company has one or two slip through... so it's going back, and I'll reserve judgement until the second... but I also didn't find the "control panel" as user friendly as the other two!

I got the big Lyman 1000 a few weeks ago... I got the traveling case with it (real NICE!)... right from the start, it comes up on "0", and hasn't drifted... it is very nice. If you get one, and get the case, CUT a circle of foam out of the top part over the scale, so there's no load on the pan when it's closed... (an over sight somewhere on Lyman's part).

So from my limited exposure, I would recomend the RCBS/Pact (it's the very same scale... the RCBS one says "PACT" on the bottom!), and the Lyman 1000.
Don't get the "little" scales from any maker... they use a different kind of sensor that is not very good, and you won't be happy.

I understand the "Money once" thing... I'm too poor to be going through this crap over and over. I got better places for my green (can you say 50BMG? ;)

Tony Dudeski!...
I need it bad!!! Tell your boss that we need to work something out (I can be bribed ;)... I want the 50BMG brass to be ready when the gun gets here... and most of the stuff from dealers is real corroded and scabby, or has been tumbled in "gravel"!

On the scope and base thing...
I'm lookin forward to it. I think you guys may be missing a good market on the adjustable rings (if they work well), by just aiming (PUN!) at the 50BMG market... the 30 cal longrange guys are pushing the limits of their scopes to make it to 1000 meters, and I spent a full week cutting a 70 moa taper into a pair of rings, cuz I wanted the full elevation available from the B&L Tac (all 145 moa is now "UP"!!)...

Jeff...
Get the Bush 1000 (How could a guy from Tejas do any different? ;).
You're iced in... go read the last 6 months of the Roster... there's been a lotta talk on this subject... welcome back ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Gotta go clean my room... it'll take two months, this place is a dump! in the cold, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 13:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.120)


I´m intrested in the M82A1 .50 caliber rifle
How do I go about buying this weapon? Is it sold outside the US and in that case, where? And what kind of nightscope is best for this weapon. Does anybody know, please let me know.
I have a tip about a very interesting supressor system for this weapon, they are made in Finland. See picture on link.
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/barrsup1.jpg

To see a blueprint of this BT8 Telescopic Reflex Suppressor
see link: http://guns.connect.fi/rs/btxgraaf.html
 

The main idex site about this system:
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/index.html
The advantadge of this system is that its selfcleaning :)
Nice ehh. They have modls for every kind of gun/rifle

One shoot....One..
/Pretorian
 

Pretorian <don´t@have .one>
Sweden - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 14:37:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.240.196.62)


Eric: Jim and Bill are talking sense. Using the same Nosler/Varget load I recommended for pigs, you can sucessfully hunt elk. But I wouldn't even have shot at the last two elk I killed with any .308 round. With the .308 you may have to pass up shots you would take with a heavy bullet out of a .300 or .338. You're also more likely to get in an argument over whose elk it is. You don't get that with the .338.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 14:45:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)


I am just getting interested in long range presicion shooting primarily as it pretains to big game and varmit hunting, I am looking to build a Remington Model 700 and am not sure where to go for a barrel. I already own a .308 Norma Magnum and wish to continue with this caliber. Who or where do i go to for barrels. What should be consider in choosing length and twist and other factors. I have only one local source and its not a good one. Thanks for any help Devon
Devon Sinsley <dsinsley@gte.net>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 15:06:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.107.129)
Jim Mitchell: I thought you were a little older than you are. A few years ago in New Jersey we set state records for snow fall 40" in one day and a foot or two in the days before and after.

A good 308 hunting bullet would be sufficient for Elk as long as a good shot is placed and you don't try to stretch the range out. Keep it under 350 yds and there should be more than enough energy to take the animal down with one good shot. My last hunt I used a 338 win with 250gr gameking handloads. At 360 yds the animal dropped in it's tracks.

I've been using the RCBS pro digital scale with their electronic powder disppensor. Never had a problem and it is always within +/- .1 with 99% exact. Only problem is it is slow when you need to load 1000ths of rounds. It takes weeks.

Happy New Year all !!! God Bless !!! De Oppresso Liber
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 15:46:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)


Electronic scales....have not tested all available to handloaders, but have not been impressed by any so far. My advice is to only use an electronic scale to sort stuff by weight, such as brass, in a noncritical operation. That is, your desired level of accuracy at least twice as broad as the supposed accuracy of the scale. For quickly weighing powder charges, nothing is faster or as accurate as the Prometheus dispensor. For those weighing charges by hand I highly recommend sticking with a good balance beam scale as in their price range they tend to be more accurate than a comparably priced electronic scale but even these things are not truly repeatable to 0.1 gr if tested against a laboratory scale although they seem to suffice.
brand <brandx375@yahoo.com>
ICY, TX, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 16:54:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.228.138.159)
Brand: good to see you back here! I've got to say that I agree with you on the electonic balance stuff. Got to take apart my first Mettler AT200 just a few months back. MAN! For folks wanting a good balance, go with the Mettler AT200 or AT261 (HA!). That'll give 0.0001 grams accurately or 0.00001 grams accurately repectively. Got to learn ALL ABOUT load cells, and why 'Lito's right too. Different load cells for different BALANCE COSTS. You want something good and stable? You're gonna PAY. Here's some tips though. When you get a good balance, you need to keep it on a good bench! They sell solid granite benches just for these things that are in the high hundreds of pounds ;-) On our benchtop stuff, you can lean on the bench and watch what you're weighing increase weight by 0.0025 grams at least. For me, it's a good beam balance and some Troemner weights. Good nuff!

Marc MSoulie@home.com: welcome aboard! Good to see a fellow gas gunner, service rifle shooter here. Look out, they're all around us, those problematic "bolt gunners". Don't tell 'em how well that M-14 shot, and keep LOTS of loaded mags! HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 18:45:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


****I was wondering on the differences between the two rifles:
SR-25 versus the AR-10T.
I'm trying to decide on which to purchase, obviously long range accuracy in a semi is important as well as reliability. I will be using the Leupold Mk IV M3 with it and shoot only Match Ammo.
I have heard some mixed reviews about the reliability on the Stoner Rifle but hardly no inputs regarding the Armalite.
Any opinions and info would be greatly appreciated.
Jesse <jessefleener@hotmail.com>
Tacoma, WA, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 18:53:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.24.186.80)
Jesse: On the SR versus AR debate, there's a clear winner. The M-25. Get a good Springfield stripped receiver, and have it built. That's as good as it gets for a semi sniper rifle (long range spotters rifle). Patriot Jim might change my mind, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 19:18:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
>>"Jesse: On the SR versus AR debate, there's a clear winner. The M-25. Get a good Springfield stripped receiver, and have it built."<<

Bravo... you have NO shame ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 19:27:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.32)


US Optics SN-4 Users -

How do you use the circle dot for ranging distances?

Any help appreciated.

Regards,
Satria R. Santoso
satriasantoso@hotmail.com
Satria R. Santoso <satriasantoso@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 20:13:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.159.64.10)


I need assistance with a Hart Barelled 300WMR that i acquired recently... its a 1-10" 24" #7 contour stainless hart on a tuned rem 700 magnum action. Stock is M-24. Luepold M3 in an IBA mount. Action screws are properly torqued...scope is securely mounted and adjustments track preperly and return to zero predictably.

Rifle has been spectacularly well cared for, but the smith who built it is radio silent.

Unfortunately, the rifle wont print better than 1.5" regardless of load. Removal of the rifles brake improves groups by 1/4 MOA or so. but it still isnt acceptable.

(i have tried 190 Federal GM, a remington 180gr BT, and Black Hills Molys. Both the federal and black hills shoot under an inch in my 700 PSS. I have confirmed the twist rate, but may try some 165 or 150 gr loads in an effort to learn if perhaps these bullet weights are just to heavy for some reason.
 

I am an experienced shooter, but do not have smithing experience, and would like some suggestions regarding sorting out the problem, or at least some suggestions regarding reliable smiths for trouble shooting.

Does anyone have any experience with the people at Answer products?

Would go/nogo guages tell me ANYTHING worthwile?

Please respond via email to the addy listed above.

thanks
mumzer <mumzergadol@yoahoo.com>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 20:43:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)


Mumzer,
I guess we can assume it isn't shot out?? Check to see if the bolt is hitting the stock when its closed all the way, (you should be able to slip a dollar bill under the handle at least).

Next check to see if its bedded correctly by releasing the front action screw while grasping the forarm of the stock and barrel in you hand and see if you feel the barrel move when you loosen the screw. If it moves bedding problem. Also check to see that the action screws aren't touching the stock.

Try a different scope don't assume its good. Others will porbably come up with better ideas but these are the first ones to look at. Good luck!!

To All,
HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you Hogs!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmai.com>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 21:06:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)


Ok guys, help me out here..

Rings and Bases.. Leupold MK4, Badger or a combination of the two? I'm about to blow my paycheck on a MK4 M1 10x Mildot scope setup.. help me figure out the best gear to get.. this is for a Rem 700 .308.

Also, who has the best deals on rings/bases and the scope itself?
 

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
I need a cheaper hobby, poor, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 21:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.30.12)


The Good Jen: You sure about that Mark 4 M1? I had one on mine, but swapped it for the Mark 4 M3. 'Course, if you're not loading, then that might be the better choice. Mildots are the cat's meow, and one step closer to that lecture about the virtues of the Mildot Master. Then you can make friends with Bruce too (oh what a great guy!). On my bolt gun, I've got Badgers all the way around (rings and bases) coming.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the guy with NO shame!, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 21:48:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Jen,

Here is an idea for you...save some money and try this.

You might want to check out this site http://www.entreprise.com .

They sell a set, rings and base called Tactical2 for under $100. I put a set on my 700P and they work just fine and didn't cost me an arm and a leg. I almost forgot to mention, they are 30 MM with 1"
reducers included. I haven't had a chance to shoot mine to 1000 yds. yet but my initial calculation say that with the Tasco SS10X42M I have enough elevation in the scope to make it with a little to spare.

I did lap them to improve alignment.
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 22:24:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.67.136)


Bravo: I contemplated the M3 as well, however according to Leupold's site the bdc is calibrated for 168 grain .308.. what affect will this have if I'm shooting 175?
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
I need to win the Lotto.., USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 22:25:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.30.12)
HELP!!!!!! I just picked up a flyer from Arnold Arms Co., a custom builder and riflesmith. A rifle they built, a Mark II "Neutralizer", allegedly shot 3.5" groups at 1600 yds. several times over a period of 2 weeks in Sept. 1996 in New Mexico. according to my Sierra manual, the 1000 yd BENCHREST record is around 3.75" ( I dont remember exactly, and the book is not handy) What gives? Could it be overzealous advertising!?!?!? This awesome 'smith has a website, arnoldarms.com. I havent seen it yet,but it may be worth a look. There is also a letter from a customer in the same flyer. This gentleman, Larry Lindsey, claims to have shot a 3.75" 1000 yd group with a standard wt. Arnold Arms hunting rifle in 300wm with SPEER factory loaded ammo (180 gr Grand Slams). Any Comments? This all sounds bogus to me, but you folks seem to know more about it than me, so what do you think?
TomJ <tejohnson_99@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 23:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.146.247.236)
In spite of the shameless recommendation of Bravo;I'd have to agree.
From what I've seen of those other sweethearts I'd take the Springfield every time. Yuck! Darn you Bravo..you're corrupting me!
You see he MADE me go out and look at those slam bam things. I'd have to say they are much more dependable and shoot better than I thought they had a chance to do.
Jen; the scope you choose is one of the very best and probably superor in optics but it lacks the ability to widen the field of view and do the variable thing. I'm the first to admit there's nothing like a fixed scope for long range shooting but there are times when the ability to lower the power seems to be the thing to do. Mirage is one of them although it could be argued that it's still there anyway it just seems I'd be lost without my ability to change power. The Badgers are the best.
OK Lito' go ahead and laugh but I'm trying a Sheperd on my coyote gun again. Didn't get to use it extensively last time just a quick test but this time It's gonna get a shake down. We shall see. Have you looked at the optics on this bird? I dunno!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 23:32:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Jen,

Answer to your "BDC/168 gr." question is buried (repeatedly) in the archives, but if I were you I wouldn't go looking for it there.

Instead, I would e-mail Pablito offline and get the scoop from him. He's the resident M3 Long-Range Turret expert, and, besides, a Nor'easter is bearing down on him, so he'll be stuck in the house this weekend and will probably welcome the mail. Gives him something to do, he can't shoot that .50 in the basement.

'lito,

If you are desperate for .50 brass, drop me a line. Got some very clean once-fired PMC I can send you.

Best of all possible New Years to all of you.

To all that risks their lives for the rest of us, from Firefighters and EMT's to Law Enforcement and Military:

Many Thanks. God Bless. Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, December 29, 2000 at 23:59:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.157)


Variable vs fixed scopes. My "bet" (meaning, literally, my money spent on a conviction and hope, not a known fact) is on the fixed. I've got a 6x and a 10x. I've been using the 6x until I've got some chance to shoot long range, and I can't imagine (in my beginner's mind) needing to go lower than that. Why would you need less than 6x ? The field of view on the Leupold M8-6x42 AO seems fine to me at even 50 yards! (I hear that snickering.) My 10x is a Mark 4 M3. I haven't tried it yet. It seems strong enough to pound nails with! In contrast, the M8 isn't as tough, which isn't a condemnation, only a comparison. I love rugged, durable stuff. The Leupold Long Range (variable) M1 and M3 aren't as durable/strong as the Mark 4's are they? Ergo: nothing exactly. I'm just thinking aloud.

Doug

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 00:05:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 160.94.47.3)


Jen I have a REM 700p 308 w/Badger bases and rings w/Leupold MK4 M1 10x mildot from Premier Reticles and love it. It shoots a 3 rd group at 100 yds at 1/4" inch, and a 2 3/4" 3 rd group at 400 yds. and I'm not that great of shot. Uses only 168gr. FED Match. Baby food jars are fun at 400. Have not tested any farther than that. Will a MK4 M3 do the same thing as I'm thinking about setting up a 700P in 300 mag THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 00:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.177.18.162)
Jen: Best prices I've seen on Loopy are here:

http://dnrsports.com/

The service ain't that great.

A better bet is to watch the emporium and be patient. You'll get what you want at significant savings.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 00:41:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)


Jim Mitchell,
HA! At this point if it matches the stalk field colors, I'll try it!
A semi-auto .260 Remington, whay that sounds like a "gamesmans" gun!Ha! Ha!
 

Tony,
Al O.? Ha! Ha! Ha! I do miss the brown clad sharpshooter.
 

Mettler scales- My how we have progressed, just too many decimal points for this hilly billy. My Dillon Terminator seems to work ok, but if any of you want to trade even steven for a Mettler just let me know OK?
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 00:46:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.211)


Jen,
Here are some wholesale prices if you can sweet-talk some eligible FFL holder. Leupold VARI-X III 3.5-10x 40MM LR M1 or M3, glass 3/4 Mil Dot reticle: $679.62.
MARK 4 10x, M1 or M3, wire 3/4 Mil Dot reticle: $1021.78
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The windy & fridgid Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:05:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.76.151)
TomJ...
The current 1000 group record is now 2.6xx", shot by Skip Talbot... they keep getting smaller and smaller.

On Arnold Arms... HA! (as Pat would say)... I got'sa two bridges for sale, and I need the money ;).
We did the Arnold Arms thing about a year ago... and we're still laughin'...
Arnold, Dudeski... Deme' lo' un breako, porfavor :)
 

'yote Bate...

>>"OK Lito' go ahead and laugh but I'm trying a Sheperd on my coyote gun again."<<
I ain't laughin'... I'm cryin'... how could you do that to all of us, you ol' reprobate ;)...
... lemme' know how it plays, but don't busticate it, cuz they have a new policy about repairs...

"Repairs?, What repairs?, We don' do no steenkin' repairs!!"

Bruce...
Thanks on the PMC... drop me an e-mail... lemme know what you want for it, and well do it ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lookin' out the window, bracing for that "White S**T!", in the very cold, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:08:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)


Jen,

I have to give the nod to the Badgers with a one piece base over the MK4's. Have both and the fit and finish of the Badgers makes the MK4's look like they were made in Hong Kong. I made a mistake getting a two piece base and now have to drop back and punt when I get some extra cash. BTW, got your lapping bar yet?

Are you sure you want the M1 over the M3? I guess I figger it like this;

If you need the mildots then you will probably looking at more stalking and field use than bench work. If you are doing more field and stalking then you need the M3 for the 1 MOA clicks.

If you are going to shoot more paper and do bench type shooting the mildots aren't needed and your M1 will do just fine with the 1/4 clicks.

JMHO of course!

Another BTW, get one of Undude's slings. Have two and would be hard pressed to try any others.
 
 

Doug,

If I would have had the money at the time I would have gone with the Mark 4 10x M3 but that extra couple of hundred bucks just wasn't there.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:20:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.81)


Hello all of you snipping guru's. The question that I have is somewhat of an opinion. Who makes the best sniper rifle and why do you think that( Robar, Tac-ops, Awc ,TBA , Chandler & Chandler. Or should I just buy a Rem. 308 pss and send it to Arnold arms for work and have them put a Krieger barrel on it. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR HELP please email me at curel28@bellsouth.net CHRIS W.
chris <curel28@bellsouth.net>
nash, tn, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:31:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.115.34)
I bought some virginFed brass a few months ago and it preped real nice, but every third rnd was a stove-pipe from m '1a. So I use the R-P I bought in the beginning of my LR ejamakashun for the '1a. Works flawlessly. So I ordered some WW for my Rice gun and it is VERY nice brass to prep and shoot.
I also tried the Fed in the Rice gun and again, every 3rd flipped around and laid on the follower. Somehting w' the exxtracter groove, methinks.
Anyway, WW for everything from here on.
And I thought I knew how to reload...
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:32:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.219.206)
Jen: base and rings..

You can't go wrong with a badger base or a dd ross base - both are built to the hilt. If you absolutely positively don't want that scope to move - then use the badger max 50's - guaranteeed to hold that puppy in place.

Battening down the hatches for that winter storm due in early a.m. here in northern va.

All: Just got a call from the Major (my wife). Her and my daughter are gonna spend New Years eve in Tokoyo. That oughta be a blast.

Indoor Trigger time:
Tried out some of those .22 CB longs on some short range stuff indoors. Not alot of noise, got a short session of quality trigger time. DO BE WARNED: make sure you have a fairly stout target backstop. I used a box with a 2" piece of soft pine first, then oak afterwards. The pine will allow the bullet to pass into it- and slow it down - then the oak of course will be the final stop.
If ya use something really hard up front - it could hit that hard wood and bounce back out thru the cardboard box.

Those little cb longs aren't very loud - but they will go just about all the way thru that piece of pine... so treat that indoor range just like you do that outdoor range with your hi power stuff.

God Bless all and have a happy new year!

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:44:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)



Leupold MK4 M1 or M3
I have an MK4 M1 10x. Can you dead zero the MK4 M3 at 100 yds.
Or do you zero the M3 different than the M1. I know the M3 is 1" clicks at 100. I'm thinking about an MK4 M3 for coyote hunting. THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:50:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.177.18.162)
Ken...

Ain't those .22 CBs a real hoot. But for backstops, instead of wood, use...

... Cats ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:52:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)


Howdy All,
Hope Santy brung ya'll what you lusted for! Got one inch of ice here at Rancho Relaxo on xmas day and then four inches of snow the day after. Shore did stir up the coyotes. Went out to my favorite perch the day after xmas (in the snow, brrrr) and found a big ole hog doing his best to plow the river-bottom. He was about 150yds and half buried in this hole he was diggin. Watched him for awhile and could'nt decide how to shoot him, since I was carrying the coyote gun, a Win .243. I finally slipped a 100g handload in the rifle and whistled real loud, the old hog stopped perfectly still, and I got him in the eye. He smelled really bad so I turned him into coyote bait. Got up at 0 dark thirty yesterday morning and got three coyotes off his smelly carcass! Man, love this snow, the yotes can't hide!
As for hogs in general, I carry an SKS in the ranch truck and that 7.62x39 softpoint will kill em plenty dead out to about 100 yds.
Have shot many with a .257 Roberts 117g Sierra gameking, also a 7x57 Mauser 140g Sierra. Of course if you want to shoot em out at 300yds, the .308 or 3006 with 180g boolets will work well also. The key to all ofty ds is boolet placement. If you shoot them in the eye, or through the heart, they usually lay right down and die. However, if you shoot them in the gut with a .338 Winmag, they will get up and run a long ways!! Biggest hog shot on the ranch here was 2 years ago, was killed with a 7x57 Mauser, weighed 728lbs. Just thought I would throw that into the fray.
Rex
Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 01:56:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.146.135)
Thanks for the input on hunting elk with .308 Win. I understand the range limitations, but I am willing to trade that for familiarity with the operating system. Next question: can anyone recommend a good specific factory loaded hunting round to optimize the .308 for elk delivered from a magazine fed semi-auto platform? Cost of the ammo is of no consideration due to the amount of money I am saving by not purchasing a new rifle for such limited use(I don't reload).

Scattered among your responses to my origonal question were numerous references to a debate between the AR/M1A semi-auto delivery systems. Several references are made to the M-25, and I have been able to acquire little information on this variant of the M-14. What are the differences between the M-25 and M-21? All I can tell is what appears to be a M3A stock from what little I have seen. Is the receiver double lugged like my M21? Brookfield mounts? Anything else?

Help out this unwashed former Army F.O. turned police officer who regrets his E.T.S. date at least weekly.
Eric Cryar <ericcryar@aol.com>
Riverside, Ca, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 02:11:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.32)


Happy New Year!
 

With all that goes along with it too. I am going to get back out on the range with the .308 Win and really get serious. I have a load that works great at 600m. 175gr SMK with 43.0gr Varget. I shot a 4" group at that range with 6 witnesses present. I wonder if it was a fluke? As soon as I get my chronograph out therte I'll time it. I am guessing 2500 f/s.
Ghillie suit question???? I got all the net I need to tack it on the cammies, but is there a faster way to tack it on other than sewing the corner of each freakin' square to the cammies?

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 02:16:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.245)


Eric...
>>"What are the differences between the M-25 and M-21?"<<

Machanically, they are very similar, but the real difference is... the M21 is BEAUTIFUL, and the M25 is UGLY!! ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
It's going to be a LONG weekend :((... in the, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 02:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)


Eric and Patron 'Lito...
Machanically, they are very similar, but the real difference is... the M21 is BEAUTIFUL, and the M25 is UGLY!! ;)
Which is good, because everything evens out when you look at the "package". 'Lito and the M-21 versus me with the M-25. EVEN! HA! If you've got questions, let me know. I got the answers (I think).

Doug: you can zero the M3 just like you do the M1. Turn the turret, re-tighten.

Dennis: must have been the loading, M-14's DON'T JAM EVER! I've had ones that lived their entire barrel life with NO malfunctions of ANY kind.

The Good Jen: I shoot the 30-06 dial on the Mk4 M3, it's setting on my M-25 (7.62 NATO). I run the 175 SMK's at 2680 fps and it TRACKS!! With Varget loads, I should be well safe in that tracking from 0F to 125F with EASE. Who told me it would work? Well, talk with 'Lito, but be VEWWY VEWWY Wary with that one! Jimmy Hendrix thought he was Patron 'Lito when he wrote "are you experienced". HA! DOUBLE HA! EVEN MORE!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 02:49:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.152)


There are lots of different versions of how the M25 came about. Hugo Teufel wrote a very good M25 article that came out in either Precision Shooting or Tactical Shooter, and this older Sniper Country article by Don Bain is posted at

http://www.prostar.com/web/sniper/article7.html

Think of an M21 National Match Receiver. Rebuild the rifle with a stainless steel 1-11 barrel (I don't know what brand). Bed into a McMillan "M1A" fiberglass stock (with or without the stock liner) in your choice of camouflage or solid colors (desert, forest, woodland, OD, grey, or tan).

At the USAMU Sniper School in 1982 the glass was a standard ART I. My rifle had a camouflage McMillan, and the gas cylinder plug had a very small (1/64th inch?) hole drilled in the end, which I later learned was to bleed off excess gas (a la the M60) for shooting heavier 180 and 190 grain Match Kings to 1,000 yards.

MSG Joe D. told me (in 1987 or 88) the 10th SF Group rebuilt their own and had Leupold M3s on Brookfield mounts (same scopes which would become standard on M24s).

The 82nd Airborne Division had wood-stocked M21s retro-fitted with M3s on ARMS mounts.

In the early 90's I believe my SF M25s were from the Navy Surface Weapons Center depot at Crane, Indiana, with B&L 10X Tacs.

Many were fitted with the mounting hardware for Kigre SIMRAD KN200s and 250s.

As far as I know, no Army or Navy rifles had the "double lug" and "triple lug" configuration the Marine Corps competition rifles had (several of my colleagues noted that if they had seen a receiver fail it was at the juncture of that TIG weld and the receivers).
 

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 03:22:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.19at


Bad Karma,

SOunds like the varget load is working for you. Runnign about 2650 or so?

Brother Two Shoes uses that load if memory serves, and I've witnesses him fire several 5 round 500 yard groups into less than 3 inches from prone.

I use 45.00 varget in a win case with wlr primer at 2705 with a 23 inch tube and have signed witnessed targets fired from 1000 yards
( five rounds prone ) into just under nine inches.
{fyi Terry, Ron and Bill witnessed and signed off on the targets}
Texas Mike <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 03:45:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.132)


Patron Dave: witbetcha! When I inquired about my "planned rifle" with Dick Swan, he assured me that the 82nd did in fact run my same mount / ring / scope combo. I took his word for it, and it works for me! I went without the liner too, as the new ones do. Extra lugs on the receiver? We don't need no extra receiver lugs! ;-)

Had a GREAT talk with Geoff tonight about the boltgun project. Every time I think I've got the answers, there only comes more questions. But it helps that he's built MANY of these 6.5 Sir Wes's (although he doesn't call 'em that ;-)) seems that it just happens to be his wifes rifle too! He ran/runs that round for competitions, so it's not like I'm going into uncharted territory BY FAR. The down side? He says about 1300 rounds is all his history says the barrel is good for. BAH. Just can't win! A 400 to 500 round per year rifle? Just can't win!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 04:10:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.196)


All,

I promise that I know the correct usage of the caps key and the proper spelling of the word witnessed.
I will now consume large quantities of alcoholic beverage so as to have a fitting excuse for the third grade spelling.

Best to all this New Year
 

Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 04:13:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.131.42.106)


TomJ tejohnson_99@yahoo.com,

I'm not sure where the information comes from, 1000yd shot group 2.5-3.5". Man these people should be USMC SN. I personally have tested and now own some of the most expensive arms money can buy, in this business of collecting rarities, expensive tactical arms usually means extremely accurate stuff. It comes down to one thing, it's up to you to make that bullet go where it's supposed to go. To be able to see your shot group at 1000yds you kneed a very POWERFUL scope, after that you need the correct ammo, usually factory falls short (performance wise). After the first shot or first couple of shots to actually gage the wind, it's a pain in the stump. Because the wind at 800-900YDS may be twice as it would be at 100yds. This argument goes without saying you need a very accurate system, rifle/scope the .338lm or the .300. If you are actually shooting a blank paper target at 1000 m, you are in the wrong hobby. The only way i know i hit the target at 1000M is using armor piercing ammo, so it can emit a spark when hitting a thin metal target. That is the only way to actually see a hit beyond or near the 1000 m range. If not, you need a 50x scope. And they are nasty. You can also argue, you can walk up to the target and see if you hit it or not, if you do this you cannot aim at the very same spot where your 1st or 2nd shot went. Walk up to the target and see where your 1st 5 shots went.. use AP ammo, and if you hit a target 2'x4' constantly you are good. Go to your back yard or the range, set a 6' 2"x 4" piece of wood at 1000 m and 800 m hit each with (1st) 20 rounds, out of the 20ea. how many hit the 800 mark? and how many at the 1000 M mark? Believe me it's a pain in the OO. Do the test and Write back.
Fred
 
 

Fred <xanembo@aol.com>
FL, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 04:14:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.40)


Jen:
You might wish to try Premier Reticles for your scope. Their phone number is 540-722-0601. I purchased an M3 from them in April. The base price for the scope was $648. I had them install a custom range finding reticle designed by Michael Harries. Total cost for my scope was $792. I believe Premier also carries Badger rings. I used Mark 4 rings which cost $102, the Badger rings were more.

Eric:
The .308 is sufficient for elk. I use 165 grain Nosler Partitions over 46 grains of 748 in Winchester or IMI brass and CCI primers. I use 165 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips over the same load for deer, antelope, prairie dogs, etc. These loads feed reliably in an AR10T. Wyoming doesn't have a magazine limit for hunting so you may use your AR10T without resorting to plugging a magazine.

Adios!
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
WY, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 04:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.170.108.167)


Ok Guys, now that you've got me moving towards the Mk4 M3 10x.. explain to me how the BDC thingy works.. What's the difference in turrets between the M1 and M3 (From the Pics Leupold has the M1 has larger Turrets with inlets so they're easy to grab, where the M3 has lower set turrets)? The M1 seems to have a lot of information on the Turret while the M3 has little.. what are the differences?

How much of a difference does 1/4 vs 1 or 1/2 MOA Make at close or long ranges? I've still got a lot to learn here so any and all information is appreciated.

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Waiting for the big storm.., USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 04:19:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.30.12)


Lito' i'm thinking that might be the old policy on repairs too. What I hear if one of these breaks you use it to hammer in your tent stakes from that point on. I was talkin to Sheperd on the phone about their service policy once. They said it wasn't important cause a Sheperd never needs service. Cry me a river!

Ken' tell the Maj high for us all! Tell her to keep the KABAR close in Tokyo. Never know when a Samari will pop up. Ain't this tour about over?

Rex' 738 lb hog. Even in Texas... you guys been feedin em sheep down there?

Best Sniper Rifle, wow I wish I could have tried all those. My pick is Chandler. I never heard a complaint on one.

Fred; I'm not sure I could ring a Sherman at 1000 yards with armour piercing. Try a match king or two in that high dollar stuff. You can hold 1 moa at 1000 with a lot of cheap stuff but it ain't easy to see the hits for sure. That's not to say you can do 1 moa with ammo not tuned to the rifle. Good guns is great but good ammo is wonderful. Don't be offended if I'm dealin too basic here. Sounds like you have stuff that would put mine to shame.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 04:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Jen;
The Leopold M3 is a 3.5 x 10 variable power with a 40mm objective in a 30mm one piece tube. This makes for a very tough scope as the tube thickness is substantial. The M3 also has a rear parallax adjustment, (the third turret). This allows the shooter to adjust the focus without reaching to the front of the scope. The windage and elevation adjustments are in 1 MOA clicks and the clicks are very positive. This allows the shooter to adjust the scope from minimum to maximum elevation in one revolution of the adjustment knob. Most scopes have 1/4 MOA or even 1/8 MOA clicks. The clicks on most of these scopes aren't all that positive and it takes several turns to from minimum to maximum elevation. I have a hard time counting past ten, (without taking my shoes off), so I get lost when adjusting a 1/4 MOA scope in the field. I believe the M1 is a fixed 10 power with 1/4 MOA adjustments. The ballistic cam is on the elevation turret and shows the range for a given round, (like 168 grain .308). The idea is to reduce the math by just dialing in the range to the target instead of calculating the elevation required in MOA's. The ballistic cams are only approximations and are no substitute for real range work and real data.

The others on this board can provide far more technical data on this subject.
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
WY, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 04:53:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.170.108.167)


Eric: For big critters with the .308, try the Federal Premium that's loaded with the 180 gr Nosler Partition. They used to sell something called "High Energy" that was supposed to do 2,650 fps. That's within kissin' distance from the .30-06 180 factory load. If you stick with the Nosler Partition (THEY WORK!), and are real careful with your shots, that's an elk rifle.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 05:09:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)


Mike: Now you've got me really confused.. according the Leupold's website the Mk4 M1 is a 10x40mm the Mk4 M3 is a 10x40mm, they're both fixed..

Does the BDC take the place of the standard elevation turret, or is it in addition to it?
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
A wee bit on the freezing side of things, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 05:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.30.12)


Has anybody had any experience with Brookfield mounts vs Arms mounts for the M25 rifles? I am patiently awaiting the return of a basket full of parts that was given to my gunsmith a while ago. It's getting to be about that time where I need to buy a few more but - the Brookfield mount (if you can find one) is selling for about $350 as opposed to the Arms for $185. I'd appreciate any help before I throw a large amount of money in the wrong direction - fully realizing that being cheap can cost you a lot of money. (Refer to my first marriage)

As far as M21s being beautiful and M25s being ugly I think people need to remember that ugly can be beautiful! :oD
BigJohn <BigJohn@1st.net>
Groundhog Central, Ohio, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 05:55:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.12.16)


Bill,
They had a picture of one that was shot over in Stonewall County in the feed store yesterday. Newspaper clip, said it weighed in at 1062lbs or so. It looked to be about tenfeet long, judging by the guy that was standing next to it. Do not know what they shot it with. The feral hogs down here are a real problem. The average size runs from about 100lbs to about 300lbs, like the one I shot the other day. They are almost 100% nocturnal, except when the weather or the drought forces them out of hiding during the early morn or late evening. Sure are fun to hunt. The sows make really good sausage!
Well, this digresses from the focus of this page, except for the shooting. I do not have a .308 of any type. I do have a custom Remington 721 with a tight chamber and neck in a Shilen stainless match barrel, 24". I have not shot it for groups at 500yds but I can hit a milk jug full of water 8 out of 10 times at 500 yds with it. For a 3006 it does ok.
I live out in the boonies on a ranch so I have unlimited access to places to shoot. My water jug range is out under the big elm tree in the back yard. Lazer rangefinder works well for setting up different range targets. I can get 1000 yds if I use the airstrip. I have not gotten setup to do that though. Tried it a couple times and never got the range. Vastly underestimated the bullet drop at that distance. Did not have enough vertical movement in my reticle to account for that. Tried to guesstimate using the step reticle in my scope and that was a waste of good rounds. Will try to work up to it though since I have learned what works by reading this roster. Ya'll just keep posting it for us newbies.
Rex
Rex <rextra@caprock-spur.com>
Spur, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 05:57:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.146.135)
Hi Jen. For some goofy reason Leupold used the M1 and M3 names for two types of scopes. The Mark 4 series is the fixed. There are also some variables that go by M1 and M3, but they are not Mark 4's.

The elevation on the M3 (either fixed or variable) is the one turn equals 1000 yards or meters. So it's a 1 MOA click elevation. The clicks on mine are soft and kind of mushy compared to my 6x with 1/4" clicks which are crisp. The turret has a ring which is marked with ranges which are supposed to work as markers for the ballistics of your cartridge. The rings (or cams) are removeable to be replaced with cams for other cartridges, as you probably know. The windage is 1/2" click, instead of the normal 1/4".

Someone else can talk about the M1 since I don't have one. As far as I know they're just plain old 1/4" clicks, elevation and windage.

Doug McKay
 

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 06:01:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.101.249.144)


Jen - I just remembered, there is a significant difference between the Mk 4 M3 and the variable M3, viz. the variable has the click points marked like on standard elevation turrets, this in addition to the range markers; the Mk 4 only has the range markers. This is one reason the Mk 4 turret is shorter than the variable's turret.

Not only are my M3 turrets a bit mushy they are tight. Gotta really crank on them to get them to turn.

Doug McKay

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Minnesota, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 06:17:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.101.249.144)


Gent's, and Ladies.....

I have posted this issue here before, and mi amigo' Mike from Tejas turned me on to this anomaly.

I also use, and love the MK4's, and the 3.5's....all 10x.
That said, I keep hearing mirage from you guys, on the variable scopes.

I have used, and use, a Loopie 6.5x20x30LRT, MK4 dials, 3/4 mil dot...
I use it at higher powers, cause you can't hit what you can't see.
( At least as well).( Aim small, shoot small).

And the other reason, is that with the higher power, I can SEE through mirage, when I can't SEE with my 10x's..........because of mirage.

I know , sounds funky, but don't knock it less you tried it......
The focus adjustment, somehow allows the target to be defined, and disregards the mirage.( You can dial it in so to speak).

Another great advantage, is at 1K, you don't need a spotter to see where you are hitting, at least w/ a .308.( Iron maidens, IPSC silo's).

This also allows you to NOT have to carry a spotting scope.
There are disadvantages, I know, and there are trade off's on everything............

But, I know I can't shoot sub .250 groups at 300/500 yds, with a 10x.
I'm sure a lot of you professionals can.

I can't, and this helps me. I don't do it for a job, it's for fun, and I know a lot of you guy's DO it for your profession, and career.

You don't have the option.........anywho, for what it's worth....
Comments?, feedback?.......

Have a Great New Year, and all be safe!!!!!!

Bro Mike in Tejas, whatever you were havin', let me in on it!!!!

Two Shoes
BUSH COUNTRY U S A!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 06:40:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.203)


Mike O'Brien:
"The Leopold M3 is a 3.5 x 10 variable power with a 40mm objective in a 30mm one piece tube."
Nope, that's the Lupita M3LR. The M3 is a Mark 4 scope, straight 10X
"The windage and elevation adjustments are in 1 MOA clicks and the clicks are very positive."
Nope again, the elevation is in 1 MOA clicks, the windage is in 1/2 MOA clicks.
"The ballistic cams are only approximations and are no substitute for real range work and real data."
Nope again. If you can load your round to the right velocity with the right bullet, it's RIGHT ON. If you're an IDPA siloughet sized guy, you're in 100% jeapordy in front of my rifle out to "10". If I guess the wind right, that's all she wrote.

Big John: I've played with the Brookfields, and I've played with the ARMS #18. At this point in time, I've got 3 ARMS mounts, no Brookfields. There's LOTS to suggest both, and both are great. It's really up to how you want to use it, and for what. I chose the ARMS for me, but that's because of how I want to use the rifle. Feel free to mail me for details, or as the hard questions ;-) Anything to help!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 06:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.196)


Fred... (a.k.a. Master "Extra" Longrange Shooter)

>>"I'm not sure where the information comes from, 1000yd shot group 2.5-3.5"<<

It's 2.6xx" and it comes from national records... not barroom gossip.

But I got a few questions for you. If you...
>>"now own some of the most expensive arms money can buy, in this business of collecting rarities, expensive tactical arms usually means extremely accurate stuff."<<

... then why are you shooting armor piercing ammo, clearly some of the worst accuracy ammo ever made?
... and you spot your shots by looking for the "sparks"???... with a 50 power rifle scope???

Jeez, I've been doing it all wrong... just lookin' at the black "splats" on the steel targets with a 10x MK4-M3 riffle scope... just like the rest of these dummies on sniper country...

... surly you will tell us more about your long range adventures :))
we are "Dying" to hear about them.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lookin' out the window, bracing for that "White S**T!", in the very cold, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 08:56:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.58)


I am thinking of having my Ruger M77 .308win rebarreled with a heavy barrel. I would like some suggestions on length, twist, and who I should get to do it. I am shooting recreational benchrest. Also, I would like to get a custom composite stock for the rifle and it's new barrel. Who makes a good custom composite stock?

L
Toy4x4 <SBToy4x4wBFT@aol.com>
Tampa, FL, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 10:53:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.177)


I am thinking of having my Ruger M77 .308win rebarreled with a heavy barrel. I would like some suggestions on length, twist, and who I should get to do it. I am shooting recreational benchrest. Also, I would like to get a custom composite stock for the rifle and it's new barrel. Who makes a good custom composite stock?

If this got posted twice I apolgize, I did not see it even when I refreshed.
Levi <SBToy4x4wBFT@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 11:08:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.177)


Origin of M25?

I got a book written by CWO Miller, and Scott Duff. It is the M14/M1A owners guide. They got a couple of pages that deal with the development of the M25. Also a picture.
They say that the M25 used a Barnett medium weight barrel, McMillan NM Heavy fiberglass stock, but instead of the M14 buttplate, it had a rubber recoil pad, it also used a Brookfield Precision stockliner, a Brookfield scope mount, and I think there was a choice of the B&L Tactical 10X, and the Mark4 M3. This all happened about 1982. Later versions used the McMillan M2A stock. The recievers did not have lugs if I remember correctly. I will dig out the book later.
Somebody was comparing the SR25, AR10 to the M25. The last SR25 I saw at a gun show had a price tag of $3000 on it, and this was without optics. I have shot two of these things, and they would not perform as well as my raggedy M1A/M25. The AR10's I have shot aren't even close, and reliability is frustrating. For what the SR25 sells for I would buy a real sniper rifle.

Later,
Bill <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 12:25:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.179)


If old Fred had some good equipment he might be abel to brake the worlds reac.at 1000yds.

BUT NOT WITH AP .
bud <offah@hotmail.com>
Greens Fork , In., USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 12:33:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.106.153.60)


I've run across a place to buy lots of useful stuff on the web for decent prices. So far, a couple of sure-fire executive and centurion flashlights and a swiss army watch are the extent of my purchases. Great prices on all of those.

http://www.botachtactical.com

If some of you guys haven't checked it out, it'd be great to hear what you think of them.

- Rex
Neophyte Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
Emeryville, Occupied CA :(, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 13:47:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.198.191.2)


Lito' in your honest opinion, do you think I'm too gentile?

Jen' the Bravo man is right on. I just assumed we were talking about the M3LR. Again I must say that sooner or later everyone wants a M3LR in the sniper/tactical business it seems. The things about the turrent and the 1"/1/2"windage clicks are important to say the least. This scope was designed for the business and it does it.
Terry 2 shoe;
ON mirage, I agree that a good long range scope with good optics can help you read Mirage. But searching for a target with a fixed 24X is hard to do if the Mirage is up. I just like the option of being able to reduce and scan off the bipod for a hard to see target.
I've used the 6.5X20 Leupold. It's a good scope and it's only problem is it's a little large but it's nice to have the power when you need it. 20X is about all one can use on a barrel for most part. I used a 24 and a 32 Unertl back in my insane days of long range bench shooting. Sometimes you needed to take sea sick pills to stay glued on hot days. But it's true the 6.5 is low enough.
Really now Lito, am I too gracious? Bravo you may have to help me out here too, compare my previous post with Lito's... did we say the same thing? I'm afraid mine might have lost some of my true frustration.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 14:44:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Gent's & Ladie's.....

Was a late post last night, before I get called on it, let me add to something that I failed to add in.

On the sub .250 (MOA) groups @ 300 / 500 yards.

A lot of you knew what I meant, but some wouldn't, I don't wanna claim no world recrds here, esp @ 500...HA!!!!

Big diff........MOA, v.s. Inches....

Was late, sorry...

Two Left Shoes
Now Awake in Tejas
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 14:50:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.31)


M-25 Background and development history,

Hi all, i'll pitch in on the background of the M25.

The concept rifle was the brainchild of a certain late Master Sergeant (forgive me for not remember the man's name, fist name was Tom, Rick Boucher would know) of the 10th Special Forces Group at Ft. Devens (now at Ft. Carson). AT that time, the 10th SFGA had a SOTIC (Special Operations Target Interdiction Committee vs. Course) of their own. They conducted Level II training for their SF operators with their own course to supplement their Level I snipers and prior to sending shooters to the SOTIC course at Ft. Bragg. They even had their own machine room and reloading facility. Not anymore though with the politically correct military, special operations included. It was deemed not career safe by a commander at the time.

The major component differences between the original M25 and the M21 were the scope mount and the steel liner. The barrel at that time, was the same National Match barrel used on the M-21. The scope mount was actually developed by a couple of instructors at the Ft. Bragg based SOTIC. It was intended to replace the mounts used to support both the ART I and ART II scopes. The major difference being the third point of contact over the forward reciever ring. This third point of contact was intended to eliminate flex in the base during shooting. That was determined to be one of the major causes of the base shooting loose. I have photos of the original design work of that base. When one of the instructors left the committee in the early 80s, he took the design to one Mitch Metiko who marketed the design.

The other major design difference in the base was the cam type mounting bolt for the side of the reciever. The mounting hole on the side is located in different positions on different rifles over the years. This slight variation in location induced stress in the standard base that also contributed to zero loss and the thing coming loose under shooting. The base, as everyone knows was intended to allow the use of the L&S M-3 Ultra scope. This is the version prior to the public built Mark IV system. Originally the M-1 Ultra was built first, again with input by SOTIC personnel and people from Leupold and Stevens. The legend is that it was designed on a paper napkin at the NCO Club on Fort Bragg. The M-3 system was made after the M-1.

The steel liner system on the original M25 was merely an interface designed to allow the operator to install and remove the barreled action from the stock for maintenance and not have a zero change. The intent was similar to the result obtained with the H&S Precision stock for the M-24 SWS. There were no lugs on the reciever and the barreled action was held in by the trigger guard. The liner was also intended to replace the sorry "bisonite" bedding compound used by military armorers of the time. That compound was not impervious to chemical cleaning compounds like today's Devcon or Brownell's Steel Bed are.

The early and late models of the M-25 shot extremely well. The various SOTIC cells all pushed the M-25 system as the backup to the M-24 bolt rifle. From SOTIC's earliest days, their training was conducted with in house built bolt action rifles using short actions obtained from the Air Force. Instructors and members of the USAJFKSWCS weapons facility built in house rifles using McMillan barrels (pre-Harris Gunworks), McMillan M40A1 field stocks and their competition prone stock. Optics were all M-3 Ultras. The M-3A was the upgraded version. The difference being that the M-3 scopes had 1 MOA windage adjustments, while the M3A had 1/2 MOA windage adjustments.

The new scope base also allowed the use of AN/PVS-4 night vision sights on a custom built base that interfaced with the base on both the M-24 and the M-25 rifles. Few of these bases were made however, and did not see field issue to the various SF groups. At the time SFOD-D used ARMS custom made mounts to put the AN/PVS-4 on their bolt guns. The SIMRAD was not in use at that time.

The M-25 used no bipod and shooters in the SOTIC course at Ft Bragg used sandbags under their rifles. The Harris bipod of that era was indeed a piece of crap and constantly fell apart. Later as the M-24 was being considered for upgrade to a heavier caliber for special operations (.300 Win Mag or .338/.416) the M-25 was being considered for the backup gun for the observer. Suggested modifications included a standard trigger group vs. the match trigger (since that is a problem with all M-21 and Match M-14s, armorer needed too much of the time). Parker Hale or Harris Bipod (now much better).

The guys at the 10th SFGA also worked with Phil Seeberger of OPSINC, one of the finest suppressor manufacturers in the world. They designed a suppressor for the M-25. The hole in the gas piston was welded up and changed (won't state the dimensions, sorry) so that the rifle functioned correctly using the suppressor. Accuracy further improved and was easily up their with the M-24 (better when the 24 was shooting M118 and the M25 was shooting M852, no surprise there).

Different stocks such as the M2A were mostly out of the unit models that were made by various gun builders. I made 3 M25s using the M2A stock and much preferred that over the standard heavy match McMillan stock. Works great with the saddle cheekpiece. Lastly, my opinion is that the M-25 built correctly, will flatten any SR-25 or AR-10 that is around. Gun for gun, the M-25 design is superior, maybe outdated, but so is the bolt action rifle. The M-25 was designed to fill an initial shortcoming in the M-21, then to augment the sniper team using the M-24, or .50 caliber rifle. Tough gun all around. Hope this provides some interesting reading.

Rick Boucher was there at the time also. Most of this took place prior to my being at SOTIC, but most of the individuals were still there when I was there. Most honorable mention, David Zavitz (late), without a doubt the most mechanical, machine type shooter I have ever seen shoot a rifle. He was a magician. Of course, honors to Rick Boucher, next to Dave was the finest sniper instructor that I had the pleasure of learning from.
 
 
 

Trigger50 <triggerfifty@specialoperations.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 14:52:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.221.152)


M-25 Background and development history,

Hi all, i'll pitch in on the background of the M25.

The concept rifle was the brainchild of a certain late Master Sergeant (forgive me for not remember the man's name, fist name was Tom, Rick Boucher would know) of the 10th Special Forces Group at Ft. Devens (now at Ft. Carson). AT that time, the 10th SFGA had a SOTIC (Special Operations Target Interdiction Committee vs. Course) of their own. They conducted Level II training for their SF operators with their own course to supplement their Level I snipers and prior to sending shooters to the SOTIC course at Ft. Bragg. They even had their own machine room and reloading facility. Not anymore though with the politically correct military, special operations included. It was deemed not career safe by a commander at the time.

The major component differences between the original M25 and the M21 were the scope mount and the steel liner. The barrel at that time, was the same National Match barrel used on the M-21. The scope mount was actually developed by a couple of instructors at the Ft. Bragg based SOTIC. It was intended to replace the mounts used to support both the ART I and ART II scopes. The major difference being the third point of contact over the forward reciever ring. This third point of contact was intended to eliminate flex in the base during shooting. That was determined to be one of the major causes of the base shooting loose. I have photos of the original design work of that base. When one of the instructors left the committee in the early 80s, he took the design to one Mitch Metiko who marketed the design.

The other major design difference in the base was the cam type mounting bolt for the side of the reciever. The mounting hole on the side is located in different positions on different rifles over the years. This slight variation in location induced stress in the standard base that also contributed to zero loss and the thing coming loose under shooting. The base, as everyone knows was intended to allow the use of the L&S M-3 Ultra scope. This is the version prior to the public built Mark IV system. Originally the M-1 Ultra was built first, again with input by SOTIC personnel and people from Leupold and Stevens. The legend is that it was designed on a paper napkin at the NCO Club on Fort Bragg. The M-3 system was made after the M-1.

The steel liner system on the original M25 was merely an interface designed to allow the operator to install and remove the barreled action from the stock for maintenance and not have a zero change. The intent was similar to the result obtained with the H&S Precision stock for the M-24 SWS. There were no lugs on the reciever and the barreled action was held in by the trigger guard. The liner was also intended to replace the sorry "bisonite" bedding compound used by military armorers of the time. That compound was not impervious to chemical cleaning compounds like today's Devcon or Brownell's Steel Bed are.

The early and late models of the M-25 shot extremely well. The various SOTIC cells all pushed the M-25 system as the backup to the M-24 bolt rifle. From SOTIC's earliest days, their training was conducted with in house built bolt action rifles using short actions obtained from the Air Force. Instructors and members of the USAJFKSWCS weapons facility built in house rifles using McMillan barrels (pre-Harris Gunworks), McMillan M40A1 field stocks and their competition prone stock. Optics were all M-3 Ultras. The M-3A was the upgraded version. The difference being that the M-3 scopes had 1 MOA windage adjustments, while the M3A had 1/2 MOA windage adjustments.

The new scope base also allowed the use of AN/PVS-4 night vision sights on a custom built base that interfaced with the base on both the M-24 and the M-25 rifles. Few of these bases were made however, and did not see field issue to the various SF groups. At the time SFOD-D used ARMS custom made mounts to put the AN/PVS-4 on their bolt guns. The SIMRAD was not in use at that time.

The M-25 used no bipod and shooters in the SOTIC course at Ft Bragg used sandbags under their rifles. The Harris bipod of that era was indeed a piece of crap and constantly fell apart. Later as the M-24 was being considered for upgrade to a heavier caliber for special operations (.300 Win Mag or .338/.416) the M-25 was being considered for the backup gun for the observer. Suggested modifications included a standard trigger group vs. the match trigger (since that is a problem with all M-21 and Match M-14s, armorer needed too much of the time). Parker Hale or Harris Bipod (now much better).

The guys at the 10th SFGA also worked with Phil Seeberger of OPSINC, one of the finest suppressor manufacturers in the world. They designed a suppressor for the M-25. The hole in the gas piston was welded up and changed (won't state the dimensions, sorry) so that the rifle functioned correctly using the suppressor. Accuracy further improved and was easily up their with the M-24 (better when the 24 was shooting M118 and the M25 was shooting M852, no surprise there).

Different stocks such as the M2A were mostly out of the unit models that were made by various gun builders. I made 3 M25s using the M2A stock and much preferred that over the standard heavy match McMillan stock. Works great with the saddle cheekpiece. Lastly, my opinion is that the M-25 built correctly, will flatten any SR-25 or AR-10 that is around. Gun for gun, the M-25 design is superior, maybe outdated, but so is the bolt action rifle. The M-25 was designed to fill an initial shortcoming in the M-21, then to augment the sniper team using the M-24, or .50 caliber rifle. Tough gun all around. Hope this provides some interesting reading.

Rick Boucher was there at the time also. Most of this took place prior to my being at SOTIC, but most of the individuals were still there when I was there. Most honorable mention, David Zavitz (late), without a doubt the most mechanical, machine type shooter I have ever seen shoot a rifle. He was a magician. Of course, honors to Rick Boucher, next to Dave was the finest sniper instructor that I had the pleasure of learning from.
 
 
 

Trigger50 <triggerfifty@specialoperations.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 14:52:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.221.152)


Update on the M-25...

After another cup of coffee, I remembered the man's name responsible for the M-25. That would be the late MSG Tom Kapp. Mr. Kapp succombed to a mysterious affliction that was linked to an experimental diet program designed to come up with lighweight food for use during Army Special Forces reconnaissance missions that were to be up to several weeks in length. This was tied to their cold war mission of special reconnaissance during a confict with the Com Block eastern europe. Tom began to loose weight and at times was under 100 lbs. Eventually he lost his battle as i'm told directly related to that test and experiment.
Trigger50 <triggerfifty@specialoperations.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 15:00:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.221.152)


Bud...
yo' gotta cut Fred some slack, Jack!!

Remember, it's cuz he's got those "...some of the most expensive arms money can buy" type sniper riffles.
With those guns (that make all of ours look like penny arcade .22s) he could set a worlds record with "AP"... and just watch those sparks fly while he's doing it!

Two Shoes...
We knew what you meant all the time... you meant that you shot .25" groups at 500 yds, but that you did it with one of Fred's borrowed riffles, and "AP" ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
That white stuff is up to the windows, and I can't see the "JungleTruck" :(( in the cold and snowing, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 15:40:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.38)


Lito,

Stop your whining! Go out and do some serious cold weather testing while I stay warm and dry here in By-GaWd. You too can shoot those true "Hey Arnold" record groups if you train hard and keep up with your Cardio Shovelling regime.

I have personally tested a 14" wide grain shovel with plastic blade, and ergonomic grip, one of the most expensive sold by Lowes, and it can shovel with the best of them regardless of material being removed. *:-0
 
 

******************************************************************
Folks,
Like Jim Mitchell said Be REAL careful if you have to drive this holiday season. We can't afford to lose any of you to an ignorant slob driver.

******************************************************************
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 16:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.52)


Well I just love the good tips and tricks I gather from the DR.

This afternoon I'll be raiding the cellar for some old wwII vintage AP stuff, having already ductaped the 50x spotting scope to the rifle.
I'm using some screen from the front door taped over the objective lens to use as a reference grid. I've also arranged for the neighbors old Studebaker to show up at the range so I can see sparks when the AP hits some real steel.
Fred, words cannot express my gratitude for the magnificent shooting instruction you've shared, and anxiously await the afternoon to prove to all your sage advice. I hope to have the results posted prior to your weekend leave expiring, and your return to the asylum.
Best,
Novice Texas Shooter Mike
Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 16:24:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.107)


Trigger 50,

Thanks for the background info on the M25 project. That is more info than I have been able find in my own research on the subject.

'Lito,

I guess next time I shoot a 1000yd match I will just forget about loading the crappy old Sierra 175 MK's, and just shoot some AP. Of course after I win I will be DQ'd for using AP! And to think I traded off a pantload of that stuff for match brass.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 17:36:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.39)


I got it now! My good ole boy personality is just not armour piercing enough.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 18:43:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
'yote Bate...

Do I think you're too gentle and too gracious? HA! (as Pat would say)... like a Coyote with a thorn in it's foot!!

As to armor piercing personality??? DEFINATLY! ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 18:51:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.102)


AP SHOOTING FRED..... Hey- you busted yourself! So you're the no-good
that's been sneakin' into Storm shootin' holes in them expensive
LaRue's. Please call Rod Ryan with your Platinum Card number so he
can repair the damage that you caused, and maybe some of us Magnum
shooters will be welcome again.
Have a VERY happy New Year,Sparky
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 18:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.72)
PeteR...

If you have that 5 page e-mail of the 300WM tracking data I sent you before the match, would you send a copy to:

Robert Kinz 

He needs it bad... and would you send me a copy... can't find mine.

I'm in computer hell this weekend :((

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
It's just one kind of hell or another :(( in the "lookin' better", USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 19:08:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.102)


PeteR...

It's to:

Robert Kinz: rkinz@ipa.net

(and me too!)

I keep forgeting a pair of those ">" brackets make everything in them disappear :((
 

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
It's just one kind of hell or another :(( in the "lookin' better", USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 19:18:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.102)


Bill(R) & Bravo,
Thanx for the advise. I just might do that and plop a scope on the Mod 70 and run it up the flag-pole and see who salutes.It would be hard to get rid of even though my Dad didn't use it.

I used to work in a little gun shop in Chandler, AZ and an o9ld guy came in with a pre 64 in .270 with an old Alaskan on it. I was in there the other day, but did not check to see if the 70 was there or not. I really like the .308, and don't have one around right now. I could pick up a custom, match barrel in 26" for my Encore for plunking at long ranges. BTW, why doesn't anyone use SS for sniper work? I hate to sound so stupid, but I really do not know. Thanx again!!

Bill.......you aren't by any chance the Bill Rogers from Pompano Beach Florida, are you?
Winchester Bob <setao@uswest.net>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 19:22:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.225.196.193)


Hi guys. Long time lurker, first time poster.
 
 

I'm about to take the plunge and pick up a rifle for paper punching. After some research and from the reccomendations from everyone on this board, I think I'm gonna go with a 700 VS in 308 and a Leu.
 
 

One question though (yay - another new guy asking a 308 question) : why is the .308 considered
Dave B <daveb196@home.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 19:35:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.76)


ack! bad post.

To continue where I left off : how come 308 is considered "short action". What's the cutoff that makes the distinction between a 308 being short and say, a 30-06 being long? Just a general curiosity kind of thing.

Anyways, keep up the excellent work everyone. This is a highly informative site.
Dave B <daveb196@home.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 19:38:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.76)


Winchester Bob: how can you tell if it's stainless or blue under the paint? I've got a stainless Kreiger on mine, but after it's painted cammo, the only one that will know that is ME! Maybe that's why. Reflectivity? I never had a true alaskan, but I made due with a Stith ;-)

Mike: I like your sense of humor! So do I take it that you got the high-dollar "ballistic" duct tape to tape that spotter on with? 'Cause you know, cheap duct tape will make your groups open as it warms!!! I'm sure Bro Two Shoes will keep you honest on those Studebaker hits.

PeteR: hope you have better luck with it than I did. In the last snow, the spade handle broke right off. You know how hard it is to shovel snow with broken plastic and rivets poking out? BAH! But my back felt just fine afterwords, so that ergonomic stuff must work!

Dean: thanks for the info.... that's a whole lot more in detail than I've found out. Although I have to ask one thing: what kind of modifications were done to the trigger group that caused them to need more armorer time? I've had mine done as NRA legal trigger groups (weight of pull) for a long time, and they've been 100% reliable. Just wondering if they were lightening them too much or if they put some kind of funky mousetrap in there. In any case, it's good to hear someone else backing up my experiences with some history from "out there". It may be that the SR/AR will evolve into something better than my M-25, and when it does, I'll change, but to put it bluntly, my mama didn't raise any guinea pigs. I'll stick with something danged close to what Dad used to such good success.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 19:53:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.205)


Lito,
heck your e-mails, it should be there mit/CC.
 
 

Du,, Du Hast, Du Haast Kam data?

ugh oh its begun again............
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 20:06:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.192)


DaveB: Based on the Two PSS's I own, one a .308 short action, the other a .300wm long action.. I would have to say it has a LOT to do with the sheer size/length of the cartridge. My .308 looks soooo puny compared to .300 wm.

.300 WM     3.3125" Approximate Length

.308        2.8125" Approximate Length


Based on these approximate numbers (Used a tape measure as I don't have calipers handy) the rounds are a full 1/2" difference in length. The bolts and mags on the .308 and .300WM are also different in size respectively to handle the larger or smaller round. I have heard something about the M24 or another Military sniper rifle being in .308 but with a Long Action to handle a proposed, but not adopted, longer cartridge such as the .300wm.

Hope this helps.

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
It's Snowing!!!, Blizzard, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 20:22:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.30.12)


Interesting Info floating on here lately. Guess that is one way of putting it!

Fred - WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING SIZZLE CHEST?

Bravo - Contact the 82nd about the Dick Swan ARMS debacle before you take too much info there. I spent one week on the range with the 82 trying to get their weapons zeroed. The scopes were falling off the weapon due to the mounts breaking. 10th Group and Tom Kapp was having the same problem after only 5 to 10 rounds. That is why the ARMS mount was never used. We had the same problem with the mounts we put on the M21s we were upgrading.

Bill, dc8plumber - The M25 started as a project weapon in 86 and the scope was the Ultra M3 later to become the M3A (Still have several M3 scopes here on SOTIC). The project started at 10th Group with MSG Amelung then NCOIC of 10th Group SOTIC and then SFC Tom Kapp later MSG. It was to be the observer's weapon and support weapon for urban operations. The weapon went through a number of modifications until the whole thing was squashed by GEN Guest. Reason was that he down played the M21. He had just told congress that it was unfixable to get the M24 on line. To now go back and ask to upgrade the weapon system not in his scheme of manuver. The B&L Tactical was never used on the orignal series as the B&L did not come out until later in the game and the Ultra series had been bought and in use. I believe that the Navy version did have the B&L but they started playing after the fact.

Dean - Thank you for the kind words. A couple of things to correct though. The biggest is that the Brookfield mount was not designed by us. Zavitz'z mount is still here and is completely different. You just re-stated Dick Swan's claim of the scope mount being designed by us. He added that we were getting kick backs and is the basis for the JAG and IG investigation in 87-88. This was instigated by Swan to get his mount used on the M25 project even though it failed completely during tests at Devens. He claimed we failed the mount in favor of the Brookfield. Zavitz, Kapp, and myself were tied up in investigations for a while until it became obvious that the complaint had zero merit. I believe all this hit just before you came to SOTIC and is why there is still some confusion on the issue.

An additional advantage to the Brookfield is that the mount permitted use of the iron sights set at "battlefield zero" with the scope still mounted on the weapon.

The Brookfield liner was a major plus for durability of the weapon system. However, while the weapon could be made to be just as accurate as the M24 on the range it still suffered from all auto weapon problems. once introduced to the field environment the weapon startd opening up and the zero shifted. This was from the debris getting into the workings of the weapon and changing how the weapon vibrated and locked up with each cycle of the weapon. There is no known cure and while the weapon may be fine for several shots and several outings the weapon will let Murphy screw you at the worst possible time. We used a planning range of only 500 to 600 meters for the weapon as the backup/spotters weapon. The weapon had a durability problem and that is why we never jumped them in the course rather we had the students jump a 2x4 of correct length. We did this so that a student did not fail due to a weapon going south for the final shot after the jump.

As far as picking between the M25 and the SR or AR I would have to go with the new SRs that are being produced and built. They are holding zero, not jamming, and all are in love with the weapon. Up to that time no SR25 had made it through our course.

Jen - Belated welcome! Get the M3LR, you will be happy and never have a MAJOR problem that can't be settled by the company. The BDC is actually only a collar that tells you when you have enough moa come ups or downs form your zero range to hit your desired target range. There is no "cam" as on the S&B or other "cammed" scopes. The elevation is in minutes of angle or .25 moa is you go with the M1LR. Pesonally I think once you get used to the 1 moa you will find it quite accurate for most shooting requirements, it will get you to within 4 inches at 800 and most can't even begin to shoot that close anyway.

OK guys have a ball and Happy New Year youse guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 20:24:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.178)


Dean, that is one of the best short history pieces on the M25 I have read. Pete can you get this saved somewhere?

Rex, have you gotten anything from Botach? I canngive you several stories of bad customer servicem double billing and not coming through with promises made. I dont say this about many places but I would not spend a dime with them. Been there did not like it.
 

On the 338 Lapua, JR builds one fine bbl. My HS 338 Lapua rifle is a 1/2moa rifle out of the box. I have a 28"bbl and a muzzle brake. HS and McBros actions I see no real advantage to either over the other. Both are exceptional. Now when George Gardner builds the 338 Lapua on a Remington 700 (highly modified) I will let you know the results. So far things I have found are : Use Lapua brand brass for the hot loads. Try RL22 for a powder and 300 grainers from Sierra fly like the wind does not exist.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 20:33:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)


Anyone know where I could get only a Barreled Rem 700 Action? Long or Short, Hinged or DM.. I'm contemplating a custom project and don't see buying a full 700P just to get the action and/or barrel to put on another stock setup.

PS: I noticed that the board allows markup to be added.. is this a no no or is it ok within reason?

Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Buried in a snow bank, somewhere in the Blizzard, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 20:34:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.30.12)


Jen : Thanks for the reply. So its just a kind of an arbitrary thing, as I suspected.
So what's the deal with PSS rifles anyway? Remington doesn't have them on their website as available models. Are they just custom versions of something like a VS? Is it possible to buy one new? The stock on that rifle looks really nice.
Dave B <daveb196@home.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 20:37:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.76)
DaveB: They were discontinued (DM versions) or limited to Law Enforcement Only (A Remington Decision, not a Federal/State/Local law). You can still get them in either DM or Hinged Floorplate models. Check the gun auction sites (gunbroker.com, auctionarms.com), gunsamerica.com or gunshops/gunshows. I saw a Hinged version at a local shop for $750 nib. I recently picked up both a .300wm DM(used) and a .308 DM(nib) from folks I found thru the above mentioned sites.
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Out building a snowman.., in the Blizzard, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 20:44:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.30.12)
Roster Hogs!

Now that there is the new 300WSM that is supposed to be the equal of the 300 WM, any of you reloading dudes (exception for dudette Jen) happen to wonder if the same could be acheived with the 338 Lapua?
Just curious if it is possible, or if the Lapua round just contains too much for a short case....
Dubious minds want to know!

Bravo- you are getting weak! Actually contemplating a change from your M-25 setup! The horrors....the horrors.....HA!

Take care-Mike
 

Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 20:56:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.8.28.166)


MicTac: Nope, not considering it AT THIS TIME. I'd be a fool to say that something better COULDN'T come along, and being the logical rat that I am, if it does, I'll switch. That's one of the beauties of having no ego left, I've got nothing to loose if I switch to something better! Heck, rats leave when the ship is sinking, they're not attached to it by their "saving face"! HA! I'm the same way. I won't stand on ego and try to BS myself or someone into something I know isn't right.

Master Rick: I know about the ARMS being bad at the outset, and it was something that I asked some very pointed questions about. But the latest production runs seem to be good stuff. At least mine haven't broke in any way, and I've got a few thousand rounds or so under them combined at a minimum. There was something he told me about the BPT mounts that didn't sit well, that youse guys were tack welding them in place to keep them from coming loose. I'll go on record though as stating that the BPT *NEVER* came loose on me. If you check any of my mounts, you'll notice some stuff though. Blue loctite on the front, back, and side, as well as a "timing mark" on the main bolt and body. I find it rather reassuring to be able to look down there and SEE that everything is still the same. Oh, and I put positive tension on the front pad, not by the instructions, but with a custom built spanner just for that purpose. I also like the fact that the ARMS can be manipulated to give you some taper if you need it. Not LOTS, but some.

As far as the BPT mount goes, I suppose that it is a benefit that you can keep the irons on battle sight and use them with the scope attached. However, the price for that is that the scope sits up much higher, and when you take the scope off, you still have almost the same sight picture as when the scope is attached. The ARMS is low, as they were trying to keep it as low as possible (Dick's words) for NV usage. For what I do, I chose to use the QD lever type rings, but that's 'cause I like to shoot open sights as well and the ARMS doesn't mess with my sight picture with the scope off. But it's an individual call, you'll never hear me saying anything bad about the BPT mount, that's for sure. It did me right for a long time, and that's my statement!

I find it nothing short of amazing though that the SR's have taken the quantum leap in quality lately. Truthfully, I thought it would be at least a few more years before they were good. Are these as coming out of the factory, or are they ones that are built there by you guys?

PeteR: I agree whole heartedly with the UnDude, if we can stuff Dean and Ricks posts somewhere, it would be *GREAT*.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the proud, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 21:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.143)


Missed a few.

Rick, happy new year the new Ghillie is coming along fine. I will show it off to the USMC when done.

Fred, thank god you vcame along and to think we have been doing this wrong for all these years. Where do I sign up for a class. You call it the "Ding and burn shoting school?"

Undude shaking his head at the ways of the world
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 21:48:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)


Pablito,

I have been using an Erma sr100 .338 LM with a 33 inch barrel. Fitted with a Us optics 3-22X MkIV 80mm. The entirte system cost me 10k. I regret buying it. Now AMP with the same engineer made the DSR1 .338 LM with the military barrel as an option, (29") that is just as accurate if not more. For me, (i am not a sniper, nor law enforcement)to the regular joes like me, that collect good things, hitting a target "man sized target" at 1 mile is a pain in the cojones. Let alone a 6'tall 2in. x 4in. pice of wood, wich at 1000m a 22X scope only captures a mynute line, barely the size of your reticle. Mind you that is a target as wide as your hand. For us regular joe's hitting a hand width target that stands 6 feet tall at 1200 yds, is pretty amazing let alone making 2.5" shot groups.. I never said it could not be done, all i said is i could not. Not consistently.
Fred

Fred <xanembo@aol.com>
FL, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 22:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.43)


Hey guys, great site.
I HAVE A POLYTECH M-14/S (AS THEY CALL IT. WITH 190 MK'S AND VARGET, IT DOES 1.5-1.75"@100Y. I PLAN TO DO A TRIGGER JOB, REPLACE THE STOCK (WITH A FIBERGLASS ONE), AND FACE/CROWN THE MUZZLE. BESIDES THIS,WHAT IF ANYTHING CAN I DO TO TRY TO ACHIEVE 1 MOA?I AM FAMILIAR WITH BEDDING BOLT ACTIONS, BUT NOT GAS GUNS.PLEASE DON'T LAUGH, AS I CAN NOT AFFORD A SPRINGFIELD. THIS LITTLE CHINESE COPY WILL BANG AN OXYGEN TANK @500M WITH SURPRISING REPITITION. ANY HELP ANYONE COULD GIVE ME TO ACCURIZE THIS RIFLE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. THANKS.
LONGRIFLE <longrifle30@hotmail.com>
, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 22:44:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.186.217)
Jen:
Check out the Emporium for a hell of a deal on a LR Loopy.
Spud
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
mer, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 22:46:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.216.240)
Fred...

You are very right when you say "...hitting a "man sized target" at 1 mile is a pain in the cojones."

I definitely agree... I don't hardly ever make those one mile shots, and DAMN IT... The damn son's a' bitches never stay still for the second shot... they go and hide... bummer :((

>>"Let alone a 6'tall 2in. x 4in. piece of wood, which at 1000m, a 22X
scope only captures a minute line, barely the size of your reticle."<<

Well!!! Now your talkin' the language of these bums on Sniper Country...
... hell, that's only a 2"x4" at 2/3rds of a mile.
Except most of these guys got no class (UnDude, Bravo, CDC...), and they turn the damn board sidways so the two inch side is facing the shooter... and I know that they do that ON PURPOSE, just to agravate me, cuz I can hit 'em about 95% of the time front on, but I can't hit those boards when they're sidways... well, only about 50% of the time.
It's that no good Bravo that does it all the time. he tells me that the 4" side is showing, and when I miss, they all gang up on me, and I gotta buy them a bunch of "Beaver Lites".

But you missed the main point of all the guys curiosity... all the guys want to know about the "AP" thing... how do you see the sparks on the target, when the gun ('specially the .338 Lapua) recoils.

By the time my whimpy M24 settles back down, the boolet has alread "splatted!"... so I couldn't see the sparks, even if I was shooting "AP"!
So how do you do it???
... inquiring minds want to know!!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lookin' for the "Spark" in life... in the dark and cold, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 23:14:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.44)


Does anyone know how I can get hold of the Pelican case people to get a new sheet of interior foam (the sheet you custom-cut to form fit the rifle)? My 700 has changed configuration and stocks twice since original as a PSS, and the foam's getting to the ratty stage.

Shot today in the snow (the range custodian watching from his window wondering when this insane knucklehead was going to call it quits and go home).

Last time we had a good national snow day we had some good topics going back and forth. Who's starting?

Any of you benchrest hogs have an opinion of the Bald Eagle bench rests?

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 23:17:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.22.9)


M1A,M14,M21 and M25 guys..... since a thread concerning scope mount
systems for these critters has started, I might as well throw my comment and question in the ring. A little over a year ago I posted
a question dealing with the "best" recommended mount for my M1A. You
guys were really great, providing me with lots of responses & opinions, giving me plenty to think about. The majority recommended
the BPT, with the rest going for the ARMS, and a few going for the
Smith Enterprises. I made up my mind as to what I thought I wanted,
and then picked up the phone and went to work. LOL NO BPT's (maybe never), no ARMS (maybe in a year or so), so I setteled for the Smith,
which I got from Brownells' in three days. Damn if it doesn't look
like a spittin' image of a BPT, only lower! Three point mounting,
all steel quality machining, etc. After figuring out how to properly
set it up (Loctite, line-up,& proper torque) I have been using it
for about a year (1000rds.) and have no complaints. Am I doing something wrong, or am I just lucky? Are any of you guys using one
of these mounts? If so, please tell me of your experiences good or bad. I didn't post this out of sarcasm, I'm just curious if this mount
is as good as I think it is.

HAVE A GREAT NEW YEAR

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 23:18:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.74.9)


Pablito,
 
 

I dont think i completely explained myself on the target issue. I know and completely understand this is not the norm. If i place a target at 1000m-1100m that measures buffalo size, that is fine i can put my crosshairs on it and hit it consistently and have a dawm good shot group because i have something to aim at. Consistently i can center the shots on target and all will fall in a 5
Fred <xanembo@aol.com>
Fl, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 23:39:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.158)


Pablito,

SORRY MY 1st POST DID NOT GO TRHOUGH COMPLETELY. I'M REPOSTING.

I dont think i completely explained myself on the target issue. I know and completely understand this is not the norm. If i place a target at 1000m-1100m that measures buffalo size, that is fine i can put my crosshairs on it and hit it consistently and have a dawm good shot group because i have something to aim at. Consistently i can center the shots on target and all will fall in a 5"-10" group. But if i place a 4 inch wide target that stands 6' tall, 4 out of 20 i hit. I cannot explain why. Can yopu tell me what im doing wrong? I dont beleive it's the scope acting up, because i can hit the buffalo target at center, but not the thin target. I cannot place a paper target behind it to see what's going on because that will give it away, i can center the crosshair on the paper behind it.

Fred
Fred <xanembo@aol.com>
FL, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 23:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.158)


Dave,

I'm kinda partial to the Ransom Rifle Master, have used most of the others as well. The Bald Eagles are good, but be sure to check out the Sinclair rests. Good idea to get all the bells and whistles to start with and you to can become a "bench potato" hee-hee.
 

Since you were shooting today, what kind of variance did you see for POA/POI? ANY? Lighting abnormalities? What rifle did you shoot?
 

Gotta go do the Sony Playstation Sniper thing w/#1 son "Spec Ops" something or another, I WILL probably get killed - AGAIN!
 

cHAO!
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, December 30, 2000 at 23:51:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.186)


Well I finally got to shoot my M77 MK II in .223 all-weather. although I didnt have a table to shoot off of. I was shooting 3-D coyotee 55 gr. sp prone at 100 yards and got this spacing. 1/4 inch, just under 3/4 inch and right at 1 inch for a group. I am not sure if you use the longest space between holes to get the group (it would be 1 inch if that is so) or if you add all three up and then divide by three then it would be .66 MOA at 100 yards. I am sure that I can get a better group at 100 yards than that if I am off of sand bags and a table. I did just a basic sighting in at the 100 yards well I bored of that so I moved off to 150 yards and was able to shoot the cap off of every 2 liter bottle I set up. I then moved off to 200 yards and missed the first shot at the cap, but hit every cap after that. I am very happy with the accuracy, and I cant wait to see how accurate that it is off of a table and with different ammo.
well that is the report that I promised

Charlie
Charlie <higgins_charles@hotmail.com>
Jonesboro, AR, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 00:00:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.191.252.112)


Fred wrote, "If i place a target at 1000m-1100m that measures buffalo size, that is fine i can put my crosshairs on it and hit it consistently and have a dawm good shot group because i have something to aim at. Consistently i can center the shots on target and ALL WILL FALL IN A 5"-10" GROUP." (My emphasis.)

Fred, that would make you easily the greatest rifle shot in history. I'm honored to make your aquaintence.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 00:01:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)


Pablito,

I apologize for so many posts, i promise i'll read your posts before i write back. Im not sure, but the .338 takes 2 full seconds to reach 1 mile.? -( I'M NOT 100% SURE) but the actual hit confirmation comes from the spotter. I do apologize for my bad expalnation on my confirm hit on the AP ammo, but my spotter is the confirm hit guide that actually tells me "hit". It makes his life much easier if he can see a hit and not have to walk a mile to check. 1 out of 10 shots i use AP 485, and the rest Lock Base 250gr. All factory Lapua. When it's my turn to be the spotter, i can see the spark with a spotting scope and confirm a "hit".
Fred
 

Fred <xanembo@aol.com>
FL, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 00:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.158)


Fred: that's 100% different than what you originally posted. Congradulations, mission "backpedal" has been almost achieved. Shouldn't take too much and those who happen across the site will think you're a genius shot. As for myself, I tend to side with CDC and 'Lito.

Alan: no doubt I was one of those "ARMS" suggestions you talked about. I've played with a bunch of the mounts, but the Smith is a bit of a "Johny-come-lately", and I must confess I don't know much about it. It might be the cat's meow, but I wouldn't know. There's a list I could rattle off that would be what NOT to get! HA! That I know of, the Smith has only been out, what, about a year? Out of the ones I've tried, the best are definately the BPT's and ARMS though. And I'll stick with the ARMS. I'd be interested to know how the 3 points work for connection.

Long-chicom-rifle: It's my experience that a good bedding job and stock will roughly half the group size of a Springfield based M-14 (most of the time). How that translates to one of the chi-coms, well, I don't know. I do know this though, you've got more guts than I do. You wouldn't catch me pulling the trigger on one of those. Have you checked the headspace lately? After bedding / stock / trigger job comes the new barrel. If it's BUILT well, then it's WAY sub MOA. Without the barrel, it's luck of the draw, but my luck has run from about 0.75 MOA to 1.5 MOA, depending on condition and stock used. As Patron 'Lito will tell you, wood is for goofballs only ;-)

Patron 'Lito: it wouldn't be a good range day without hearing about your "twisted board". Or, at the end of the day about how you "yanked your plank" to take it home ;-) Hey, you got some of that Canadian Beaver Brew on it's way here?! Heaven knows I could sure use it.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 00:32:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.232)


Really just a "Go to the range and knock some cobwebs off" kind of day.

Rem 700V in .308. John Eckenrode backed the 26" tube off half an inch and re-necked the chamber (damn Remington factory leade), Tubb lug, glassed into the HS stock. NEAR 25MOA slope base, M3LR. Jewell trigger.

24" tube Chandler M40A3 w/ M1-16X on a NEAR 45 MOA base.

Eckenrode "M25" that I normally use for 1,000 yard and Commonwealth LR matches. Today I played with my McCann-mount 10X Tac.

Hardest part of the day was going thru all the different .308 load boxes I had in the garage (was this the '98 season Palma stuff? I think this is the box of Ballistic Tips over 748. And what the heck is this in the LC cases? Marine Corps G4 [really hot stuff]? etc, etc.

Wife said I got wind-burned. Not a bad day considering I had the line all to myself for darned near 4 hours.
 

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 00:39:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.22.9)


wes went out to the range today took out the short tac savage at 200yd. it shoot 6 group
 

s at 5/8 in.per group with 175 smk.
 

tony
tony <kilmer@icehouse.net>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 00:40:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.203.52.178)


Dave-
I believe if you call Browning in Utah they will be able to help you out. They bought out the Pelican line.
You will have to know your case # for the dimensions when you call.

Hope this helps
-Mike
Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 00:51:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.193)


Hi, I have an opportunity on a .300 Win Mag. I read the review here on Sniper Country and wanted feedback on the recoil/ballistics of the .300 Win Mag. Specifically, I'm wondering if the extra energy is worth the recoil when compared to the ballistics of other calibers. Ie. .308, .308 Baer, .300 Ultra Mag or .338 Lapua. Thanks.
Breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 01:05:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.60.57.45)
Dave,

You make me (enviously)sick!!!! ;-) Those sound like VERY nice rigs for a casual day of shooting. Just out of curiosity have you switched to a VARGET/175 BTHP in the .308?

MicTac is right, the shadowy conglomerate that owns Browning did buy Pelican out. Last hardcase I bought was Zero-Halliburton for "work" pistolas, Foam is still good after 20 years.

I just started prepping the .308 for next years eeevents. Breaking out the Reddings, Sierras, the hallowed Varget cannister, Fed GM components. What shall I sing whilst loading? Kumbaya? DuHast?? or
maybe - Lito "had" a little lamb?
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 01:10:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.43)


Rick Boucher,

Thanks for the additional info on the M25 Development. I have the BPT scope mount, and it has been trouble free. It takes a bit to figure out the best way to install the mount so as not to get the scope off mechanical zero.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 01:26:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.154)


Pete, I pretty much standardized on IMR 4064 as powder of choice for the 7.62, but I do admit it's a pain in the keister. I reload on a Dillon 550, so it has its disadvantages when using the longer stick powders.

I'll drop the charge, then weigh each individually on a balance scale, and trickle however much each cartridge needs (I only do this for the long range 7.62 -- everything else is straight Dillon charged). I use the Dillon more as a turret press (not as a progressive) with rifle cartridges.

I bought an 8-pound keg of Varget at Perry for my 5.56 across the course loads, but may start using that after the last 4 pounds of 4064 goes up in smoke. Vihtavuori N135 charges really nicely (it has a shorter cut) at very close to Varget and 4064 burn rate.

I shoot 175 moly'd Match Kings for the 800-900-1,000 yard matches (life is already tough enough to keep track of without thinking of a 1-13 twist 28 or 30 inch Palma-only bolt gun shooting 155s, another bullet family).

I hunt with 165 Sierra Game King soft points and 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips.

I am slowly phasing out the dozen batches/lots of brass I have by just shooting it and giving it to anybody else shooting .308 on the line.
 

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 01:29:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.22.9)


I have an Outers Foul Out II copper and lead cleaning kit that I have used quite a bit to get lead out of handgun barrels.

Are there any problems with using this gizmo to get out copper fouling in my soon to be arriving Remington LTR 308?

Thanks for any responses
Robert Keller <rgkeller@earthlink.net>
Palm Beach, FL, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 01:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.80.24)


Dave,

Are you using the Dillon powder measure? I got a Redding 3BR for my B-day and have been tinkering (calibrating) with it and Varget, H-1000 and RE-22 for the loudenboomers.
I like the 3BR better than my 30 year old RCBS Uni-flo other than the small hopper size. I will have to get a bottle adapter or large 10" hopper for use with the .300RUM though. Them 90+ grain charges sure do eat it up quick.
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 01:51:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.36)


Pete, I like to think I'm not a sissy-boy, but I started flinching and I get get a nervous tic when I start reading "90+ grains of slow-burning rifle powder." Are you still pushing those 180s around 3500 and 4000 fps?

I've got a bum left shoulder from jumping and years under "The Great OD Wart, Miss ALICE." Don't want to blow the other one up with loudenboomer 30+ Mangums!

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 02:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.22.9)


Lady and Gents,

Interesting last two days. Cleaned and prepped my 6.5 x .284 Norma brass last night. Neck resized with a .293 button and discovered several things. First, the .296 button I had been using had barely resized the neck enough to hold the bullet. Slight finger pressure allowed it to drop into the case. Note: This is the load that gave me the great 600 yard performance! The .293 sized case holds the bullet firmly. This should help ignition considerably.

Secondly, there was NO DONUT in the cases. All this points out that my body sizing die is the cause and needs to be adjusted or reworked.

Cases neck sized only chamber easily in my Chandler gun...YAHOO! Looks like I'm in business.

Also wanted to let you know I SCORED TODAY! It's not what you think (DAMN IT!). I got the last two pounds of H4831SC in the area. Store says they will not order more 'cuz it doesn't sell. I explained the benefits over the standard H and IMR series 4831 and they understood. Said locals wanted the original stuff. I swear sometimes I see these folks and I start to hear the theme from "Deliverance" in the background...

Loading a lot of 40 rounds tonight, so I can shoot tomorrow and Monday. Will let you studs and studettes know the results.

Mike, Enjoyed the .jpg of 'lito and his new "lady friend"...;-)
Would send it to a Floridian compadre, but don't want them to get in a mine is "prettier than yours" contest! That's BAAAAAD.

Bravo, lad I'm startin' to worry about you. Is ANYTHING going to get you into a Bolt Action (read: REAL GUN)?

All for now. Be safe and hit your mark.

Semper Fi,

Wes

P.S. Remember one of you has to be a designated driver so the rest can be the designated drunks...
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 02:20:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.198)


Years ago my battalion did a rotation in the American southwest, and one of the concurrent training stations we had was Com Bloc weapons. I really remember the PKM ("People Killing Machine") light machinegun and about a dozen old POS Mosin Nagant 7.62R rifles and carbines.

Ammo for the PKMs and Mosin Nagants came in these big Spam cans with a key. Ammo was wrapped in wax paper and a paper sack, I think, and it was remarkable in that it had maroon and silver bands painted on the noses. I guess it was AP-I. You had to hand-link the ammo into non-disintegrating belts.

When you squeezed the trigger on the PKM it was GREAT because it doesn't bounce around like a pissed-off badger in a gunny sack like an M60. The neat thing about this ammo was when it hits something solid like a deuce-and-a-half or APC, each and every one of those hits marks its impact on target with a nice, bright white flash. A LOT of fun with a bolt-op Mosin Nagant (I have regretted to this day not being able to duplicate that scene with a dozen of my closest friends at a keg and barbeue party).

Maybe that's what Fred suggests we take to Rod's in place of the .300s?

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 02:47:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.22.9)


I have been shooting 175 SMKs at 2500 FPS using IMR 4895 with pretty good results. Would I get better results switching powders to something else? I dont like to reload that much and prefer to just stick with one thing.

Thanks to all, Allan
 

Allan <Falshooter42@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 03:31:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.130.4.100)


Alan,
The Smith mount is as close to a dupe of the BP mount I have ever seen.
I have one, and have owned a couple of BP's.......I can't tell the difference in quality, if the names were stamped in the same places I doubt anyone except a pro could tell the diff.
I even jokingly told Smith, looks like a copy of the BP to me!...They were not amused.
They mount the same, they look the same, and appear to be made of at least the same quality of steel as the BP's.
They are not Quite as "finished", appearing, but who cares, the diff is minute.
And, you can GET them, and they are 60% or less of the cost of the BP.
Smith has/ had a stellar rep for their M1A forged recievers a while back.......
If you could find one, they were going for at least a K........
they have since, re- started mfgr of these, and I don't/ haven't heard any reports on the new versions..........
If you can't get the BP, then in my H O the Smith is next on my list.

fwiw.......

Two Shoes
Waitin' on inauguration!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 03:36:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.28)


How about everyone's "dream" rifle & scope combination? Any action you like, any barrel, any cartridge, any scope, any stock. Here's mine:
H-S Precision stainless action w/ 10 rnd. magazines (everything Teflon coated), H-S Precision stock - adj. cheekpiece model, Christensen carbon fiber-wrapped Obermeyer 5R rifled 26" stainless barrel in .300 Rem. Ultra Mag. or Lazzeroni Warbird .30 cal. magnum cartridge, Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X 57mm. lighted reticle scope w/ 3" sunshade, Burris Signature 30mm. Z rings (Weaver-style one piece) w/ plastic insert ring sleeves ( #10 offset insert in rear ring to elevate rear of scope for more elevation at extreme ranges), oh yes, and a B-Square bipod, (NOT a Harris).

First comes the NightForce scope to go on my present H-S Precision rifle. Rem.stainless action, H-S stainless, fluted barrel in .300 Win. Mag., H-S M24-style stock.
Eric Blumensaadt <ericblumensaadt@aol.com>
Erie, PA, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 03:36:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.178)


Winchester Bob, No I'm not that Bill Rogers but have been confused before with him I believe. Interesting about the .270. I remember those old magazine covers with the Alaskan on the Mod 70. That's a piece of Americana there.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 03:47:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Temperature and POI Shift:

Looking over the data I have acumulated over the past year with my 700PSS, I realise that I don't have a very firm grip on just how much temperature effects POI at distance. What I do know is 1)lower tempareatures equals lower velocities (I passed high school chemistry, so big "duh") and 2) Varget is less effected than IMR 4895 or ACC2520. What I was wondering was if there was a table out there that would give me some idea of how different powders would perform with nominal .308 loads at different temperatures, particularly at beyond 500 yards. I get to shoot at 500 reasonably often and I havent noticed a dramatic difference between the low 40s f and the mid-90s f., but I know that beyond 600 it becomes a very different game and temperature becomes an important variable. I have hit enough at 600 and missed enough at 1000 to know that *everything* becomes important, as far as that goes.

700PSS as a Canidate for Purchase:

It would seem that the 700 PSS is something of a crapshoot: it either works as it should reasonably be expected (sub MOA) or it proves to be more of a tactical rifle kit that need final assembly by a gunsmith. I suppose its a matter of how much tinkering one is willing to put up with to get it right. I bought mine with the expectation that it would be a trouble-free, turnkey operation, and it proved to be anything but. If I had it to do over again, I'd get a Wal-Mart 700 ADL (or pawn shop gun, whatever) and ship it off to have a brand-name barrel screwed into it (a Shilen Ultra-Match in stainless fitted and action trued for just over $600, for example) then have it glased into the stock that came with it. Yeah, it might cost a couple of hundred more and you still dont have a heavy stock, but what you *do* have is an excelent foundation to build on. Later, you can do something like buy a HS Precision stock and do a drop in, then come back and glas that if it dosent meet your standards later. You spend more money, but not *that* much more money and you can space it out over a longer period of time.
 

M3LR:

I have a 4-12AO Vari-XII set up by Premier with mil dots and target knobs, with .2 MOA clicks as it turns out. I found that it was entirely too easy to make mistakes applying zero data in the comfort of my own living room, much less in the field. This made my decision for me in the M1 vs. M3 debate. The 700PSS wears a M3.
 

LONGRIFLE AND THE POLYTEC M14:

FIRST, PLEASE STOP SCREAMING!

THANK YOU!

Second, yes, the Chinese M14s often are quite accurate out of the box and accuracy can be improved by pulling all of the standard National Match tricks that you would on a M14 or M1-A such as glas bedding, and the Chinese receivers realy are of remarkably good quality. Thats the good news.

The bad news is that the rest of the gun is pretty much crap, some of it dangerously so. First, it realy, realy, REALY needs the Chinese bolt to be discarded and replaced with a USGI bolt, as the Chinese bolts are out of tolerance both metalurgicaly and dimentionaly. Your Chinese bolt *will* screw you one day, it *will* give up headspace, bad things *will* happen, period. It never fails to fail.

To make matters worse, there is no way you can get the headspace to work out with a Chinese barrel and a USGI bolt on a Chinese receiver. It cannot happen. However, a USGI bolt plus USGI barrel plus Chinese reciever, usually manages to yield good headspace. So we are lucky in thie respect. And the rest of the Chinese gas system is not only fully non-interchangeable with USGI parts, but are not of very good quality. There go the piston, cylinder and plug.

Oop, more bad news: the threads for the gas cylinder lock and flash supressor lock nut are different, so they have to be replaced

Oh, and the hammer and trigger are soft, too. They gotta' go. So does the trigger housing, and all of the springs.

Good news! Your op rod is probably OK! Dont ask why the Chinese did so well on the receiver and op rod (two of the tougher parts to manufacture) and screwed up everything else. Its a Chinese state secret.

More good news! Once you do all of this, you get enough US parts on your gun for it to qualify as a US-made post-ban weapon, so you get to ditch that fake flash supressor for a real USGI one...if you can afford it at that point.

If all this sounds a little flippant, I aplogize, but I am in one of those moods. However, I am serious when I say that a Chinese M14 needs upgrades to be safe and durable and I hope you dont have a lot of money in it, becase what you have bought is a receiver and an op rod, and thats about it. Mine wears almost all USGI parts and is both accurate and lead-pipe reliable. Its worth the effort, even it it were an option.

Arent 190s a little heavy for a standard M14 gas system? Or perhaps it was the infamous G4 loads I was thinking of. (I understand that there is some really neat video out there somplace of USMC experimental loads dissasembing M14s on the test bench. I wanna' copy. :)

-Tom
 
 
 
 
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 03:56:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)


I am thinking of having my Ruger M77 .308win rebarreled with a heavy barrel. I would like some suggestions on length, twist, and who I should get to do it (I am thinking Hart). I am shooting recreational benchrest. Also, I would like to get a custom composite stock for the rifle and it's new barrel. Who makes a good custom composite stock?
 
 
 

Levi <SBToy4x4wBFT@aol.com>
Tampa, FL, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 03:57:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.42)


Fred; you are going through some SC initiation ceremony here. We know how these posts get construed and screwed but we give you hell anyway. Actually I your just experiencing some resolution problems in the vertical plane I think. We all shoot better with a nice background. A Palma shooter I know said recently just to get me going.
"I can shoot just as good a groups with my Palma sights as you do with your Sniper scope." I said "Well, lets see, how about meet me about 15 minutes after sundown on East to west range. We'll shoot a brown cardboard box about a foot square at 500 yards." He grinned, "No thanks and offered me a beer!" Actually vertical is a little harder to resolve. Ever notice a TV screen the beam goes right to left not up and down. I don't know if that analogy helps or not. Maybe if you laid on your side and shot...no no just kiddin.... But hell a Buffalo tastes better than a 2X4 anyway! Don't let it bother you. Welcome to Sniper Country.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 03:59:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Awesome site, as a sniper and a combat vet I found the site to bring back memories. Keep up the good work take care.
SC Corbett <airbornetoo@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:02:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.36.245.107)
Longrifle,

Please lose the all CAPS.

Don't feel bad, first time on here I did the same thing, but only ONCE!!!......Bad JuJu......

On your Polytech M1A variant, they are known to have ( for the most part), very good recievers.........and little else.

Bravo, stated correctly that you should get this rifle's headspace checked right away.......as they have a tendency to open up rapidly.

This is a very dangerous condition, so be forewarned.

You can send it to Smith Enterprises, and they will do a heat treat, if necessary, and replace the bolt.( and anything else you want done).

The parts for the most will interchange with the Springfield, with the exception of the gas system.( no such luck there).

That all being said, before I knew better, I had a couple of these units......both would shoot MOA @ 100 yards with chinese .308......

Couldn't believe how accurate they were.
Especially with the Norinco .308 spam can ammo.......Boat tail bullets, and ball powder.

For what it's worth, thats my recommendation, and heed Bravo's advice, post haste!!!

Two Shoes
BUSH COUNTRY!!!
Waitin for ice on NY Eve.again!!!
 
 
 
 

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:08:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.28)


Jen:HTML is cool but that small print sucks...although your wisper did get my attention.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:14:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)
A friend of mine is interested in purchasing a Springfield Gen 3. If anyone has any sources other than Springfield(bargain shopping), please email me= no thread on Springfield scopes. Thanks.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:15:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.36)
Dave B. There isn't a rule on long and short cartridges but anything large enough to handle a 30-06 is considered a long action. There are long + lengths too. A short action is usually one that handles up to the .22-250 or somewhere thereabouts(.308 class). Savage Arms just recently started building actions smaller than 30-06 so you will find some of their rifles in long action with .223 chambering. It's not a handicap other than just a little bit of metal and weight to have a long action unless you imagine the action might be stiffer.

Dave; as much as we love you man. We just have to sift through what you say cause a feller that'l jump out of a perfectly good Air Plane with Sister Alice on his back .. you just gotta go slow you understand I'm sure. Pissed off badger in a gunny sack.. indeed! That sounds like a 60... you made my day pilgrim.

Charlie' works like this. It's the fartherest 2 holes. I measure from the inside of one to the outside of the other for group size. Others measure from outside to outside and subract the diameter. But it's not an average it's outside holes. Glad to hear your RUG shoots 1 moa. Enjoy!
 
 
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:18:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Hi

I have a WWII Japanese Arisaka 7.7mm that my grandfather brought back with him from japan and the serial number on the bolt does not match the one on the receiver, i have heard of headspacing problems with mismatched guns but to tell you the truth i dont completely understand what headspacing is, i really want to shoot this rifle and dont want it to blow up, so could you please tell me how i could tell if this gun is fireable. and any info on where i could get ammo for it would be greatly appreciated.

Bert
bert jepson <bingeebob@yahoo.com>
St. Helens, Or, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:20:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.190.145.117)


Wes,
You lucky, lucky dog. I love watching the guys with the 6.5 x 284s. They make 1,000 yards look effortless without getting the snot knocked out of them. I'm dying to see how that short cut Hodgdon works out. I'm really waiting for one of these guys to build a 300 Patriot or Winchester Short Mag.

If you guys get a chance to see the USAMU soldiers shoot across the course, watch Grant Singley, Emil Praslick, Chris Hatcher, and Lou Tippy (forgive me if I didn't mention some of the other young Army hard-holders) knock out high x-count scores, then transition into the 1,000s. Emil shoots a trick (Bill Wylde?) 6.5 x 284 that just plain looks NEAT! Some of those other young eagle eyes just swap out uppers and go to the line with their M16A2s (gluttons for punishment I guess).

Knock-down energy-wise, I still believe the 7.62 has the muscle to go through light cover that the 5.56 never will at the long lines, but I wouldn't doubt the 6.5 doesn't have some kinetic energy behind it as well. A lot of guys like the 6.5 x 55 Swedish, and just by looking at it the 142 Sierra looks like it could service a target as well as the 7.62 (maybe better, since it's longer).

Yep, Tom, the 190 is too heavy for the M14. Both the USAMU and Marines tried lots of ways to get the most out of the 22 inch barrel, many which belted the heck out of the rifle's working parts. I watched a young Marine captain on the 1,000 line at Perry two years ago shoot the G4 load (some ungodly amount of 4895 under a 168 SMK) splitting cases and getting near case-head separation on virgin cases. My brother shot for the Coast Guard and he gave me nearly 200 rounds of G4, but I haven't felt any great need to go out and shoot that out of my 14. The 180 Sierra Match King was supposed to be a good bullet with a nice, long boat-tail, but they shortened the angle sometime between 1975 and 1982. I believe the 180 Game King soft point had the old boat-tail, and I think it won a Wimbledon 1,000 match in a .300 Win Mag.
 

Dave Liwanag <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:32:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.22.9)


Burt and the 99 Arisaka:

First, the 99 Arisaka were made to widely varying standards of quality, the early ones made very well, the "last ditch" ones being of poor quality. Mismatched bolt of no, the gun should be inspected by a gunsmith prior to firing, preferably having the headspace checked.

Second, 7.7 Japanese headspace gauges are not commonly avaialble and the chances of a gunsmith having a set is very small. However, they can be had as special order items, for a price.

Third, Norma of Sweeden loads ammunition for the 7.7 Japanese cartrige. It is good ammunition, but expensive. A search on Google for Norma 7.7 Japanese just yielded me 249 hits, but I am unsure who has the best prices. Wholesale should be something like $20-30 per box.

Fourth, chances are pretty good that the gun is safe to fire, even with a mismatched bolt. However, that statement comes with no garuntee that you are not the exception.

Your quest is doable, but it could take considerable resources.

I have taken the liberty of crosposting you question toi the Curio and Relics mailing list on eGroups. If any group can help you , they can.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Columbia, SC, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:39:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)


Tom, thanks for the info. the rifle is definitly not one of those
bert jepson <bingeebob@yahoo.com>
St. Helens, Or, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:48:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.190.145.117)
Tom, thanks for the info. the rifle is definitly not one of those "last ditch" guns, i just saw one in the gunshop today and it was pretty bad, my rifle looks like it might be a quality peice. im no expert but i looked down the barrel and it looked shiny, it has no rust on it, im sort of strapped for cash so getting a gunsmith the check the headspacing probably will take a miracle but ill try anyway.

Bert
bert jepson <bingeebob@yahoo.com>
St. Helens, Or, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:48:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.190.145.117)


Rick,

You're very welcome, heartfelt words. Thanks for the correction and direction on the scope mount for the M-25. I had heard different versions from Dave and John S. Wasn't sure what the real deal was anyway. Good to air that one out.

A double lugged recieve with guard mounting screws works very well. Aluminum or steel pillars for the guard screws to pass through provides a stable base. The trigger is held in with a "blind" mount permanently installed in the stock so there is no trigger/action interface except to strike the firing pin. Two separate pieces now.

Very durable.
Trigger50 <triggerfifty@specialoperations.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:49:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.197.162)


Bill - dc8plumber - That was a common problem with all the mounts that screwed into the side of the reciever. That hole is actaully for the rifle grenade sight so is not real accurate. :) We used to take a stainless steel cleaning rod without the jag. Place the screw hole for the jag against the front of the NM iron sight hood that projects slightly through the rear sight (did that make sense?). Now align the rod across the front sight (make sure the dam iron sights are zeroed for no wind zero). Once this is set then align the scope mount base with the rod and your base is now plumb set. As a quicky to see how far off you are set the butt of the weapon on the ground with the scope top towards you. Look down the barrel, front sight and into the objective lens. You will see the vertical cross hair and it should be aligned with the front sight. While this not perfect it will hit paper and you don't have that lost round feeling.

Bravo - Didn't mean for that post to come out that way. Was trying to make a post actually come out short pr a change. I have heard a number of times about how the 82nd used the ARMS mount without the "rest fo the story" Was only trying to give taht rest of the story. Sorry for the curtness of the post. Now then, NO we never had to tack weld them to keep them from coming lose! That would not even be considered! We have to remove the things to do some of our work! The height of the mount was the same as the ART scope so was not a problem for us as we were used to the height. As far as the Night Vision thing, I would rather keep it high and use the left eye while shooting right handed. This gave a positive cheek weld AND you do not go night blind in the dominate eye. Again the height was to our favor. The height was also the same height we had for the PVS 4 mount that was used on the M25 and M24. We stillhave several of those. An interesting side note to the M25s used at 10th, they would place bedding compound on the pistol grip of the stock and then have the shooter inbed his hand for a custom fit. Did not agree with it but MSG Amelung liked the idea and up there he ran the train and tooted the whistle. I can think of too many things that can go wrong with that scenerio. So since I ran the train and tooted the whistle at SOTIC at Fort Bragg we didn't do it.:) And yes Bravo I still keep my M21 in the arms room to play with. Except I shoot across the course with it and not iron maidens.

Dave - My favorite was the RPK or Rapid People Killer. That little sucker hummed!! Did Drew ever get with you on that equipment? I never did find out what you were trying to sell there. The Mosin carbine was for the masochistic in the group. Kicked worse than any weapon I had ever played with.

Mike - Glad you got it going there, have fun with the Marines. :)

WEll getting long again so will end this now.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 04:57:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.181)


Chinese M14s and Re-Heat Treatment:

I (and some very competant professional riflesmiths) have come to feel that the re-heat treatment services that Smith offers for the Chinese M14s are surperfluous. The Chinese recievers do gauge out as softer on a Rockwell tester, but we have to take into account that US and mainland Chinese receivers are made using two very different steels and using very different approaches to heat treatment. The US parts are made using 8620, a steel that is very well suited to a case hardeneing approach. So, the receivers are hardened to leave a soft core and a very high surface hardness. The Chinese receivers use a 5100-series steel that is through-hardened, so the surface harness is lower but the other metalurgical properties of the steel are excellent for this sort of work. The Chinese receivers give excellent performance in the real world as made. For more detailed information go read up at Fulton Armories website:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/

Clint McKee is one of the better gas gun builders in the US and the above website is an excellent source of information on Garands, M14s and ARs. Clint thinks highly of the Chinese receivers and is not impressed by the notion of aftermarket re-heat treatment.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 05:13:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)


Things that go boom in the night:

Will the 7.62 detonate things like;
propane bottels
auto fuel tanks
gas mains
grenades
C4 etc.

If so which rounds should you use, api, tracer, ball?

It seems like a good way to provide a little light at the target,
plus create a diversion, and ruin their night vision.

If the 7.62 will, what range limitations are there?

Happy Holidays,
iiii's
iiii's <mikelsam@ipa.net>
ice-covered, Ar, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 05:15:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.128.140.54)


Long-chicom-Rifle and Tom, heat treatment: you're 100% NOW, however, the first ones in the country WAY back when, had a bad heat treatment lot. I got the different steel analysis from Walt (one of Clints top guys, can rattle off Garand stuff off his head!), but didn't get the op-rod was good. Clints shop does a good chi-com Americanization, I've seen it shoot, and you know what, it does! The down side is that it's just like you said. Toss all the parts, and consider it a receiver donor. But on the down sides, you forgot to mention that stock! The more recent ones look decent, but I remember the ones that were pressed banana wood or some crap like that. It's sole good point was that if you were in a true survival situation, you could light it, and the grease would burn for WEEKS. They were very popular back when you could get one for $350, but now that they're more expensive, a stripped Springfield Inc receiver is the ticket. Besides, the iron sight click notches wear out quicker on these, they're not as hard as the sight spindles.

Tom: here's some info on the powders you were looking for. Temperature deviation in a 308 Win, WW case, WLR primer, 168 SMK. Max velocity change from 0F to 125F. AA2520 = 63 fps, IMR 4064 = 46 fps, VV N-140 = 50 fps, RL-15 = 50 fps, Win 748 = 114 fps, *VARGET = 8 FPS*!!!

Master Rick: maybe I'm getting the place confused, but I know I heard SOMEONE was welding them on. Seemed a stupid move to me! Ruins the heat treatment of the receiver as well. The side hole is just as you say, but Springfield keeps 'em right. FedOrd and some others are notorious for not having them in the right place. Also, the stripper clip guide dovetail isn't a spec'd cut, so that's another source of enbitterment! HA! And Rick, please don't worry about being "too long", if you fill 8 pages, it'll all be good stuff, and I'd read every bit wanting more!

Bro Two Shoes: So Ron Smith still has no sense of humor? Hope he's easier to get ahold of lately. His receivers are supposedly going for over a $1K last time I checked, and that's just NOT WORTH IT. They're great, but they're $500 great IMHO. I'll check out his mount, anything new!

Having "second thoughts" about the 6.5X284, but strictly due to barrel life. Had a great conversation with Sir Wes tonight, and he's right. I'm looking for something with better velocity AND BC than a 30 cal 175 at 2680 fps, but not a mangle-um if I can help it. Suggestions are WELCOME!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 05:43:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.218)


Sorry about the caps, folks. Thanks for the info guys. I have already put 2000+ rounds through the rifle and no problems thus far. I have the headspace gauges. The 190's i mentioned are fairly mild. If I want more power, I step up to the '06, and so on.These only clock around 2300 fps, but have better acuracy than the 168's. I only paid $400 NIB a few years back, so not much lost there. Another question, if you gents would be so kind: I have a Rem. 700 in '06. I get a little under .75" MOA with 190 MK's.I have free-floated the tube, adjusted the trigger to 1.75 pounds, and a few other tricks. I have heard that Berger bullets are more acurate than the MK's. What do you fellas think of the Bergers? Thanks again for all the comments...I will continue to check that headspace. Keep up the good work.
Longrifle <longrifle30@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 06:46:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.30.78.154)
Bravo-for once you are not hallucinating.. HA!
Check back, I think last year, there was an article by the Chandlers in Tactical Shooter re: the Marine DM rifle. Seems the head NCOIC in charge of the project there was welding on the mount. Comments were made by the authors on this technique.......

Oh yeah- iii- I think you may have to stand real real close to the gas main, propane tanks, etc while shooting to ensure penetration. About an inch or so muzzle standoff might fix that problem. Use a small torch to quickly light it and then run away......Kind of depends on how fast you are....all in all a one time problem. LOL.

Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 06:48:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.176)


Anyone out there have suggestions for long range, or more 'sniper' oriented ranges in the Houston, Texas or surrounding areas? I'd love to find some place with longer ranges and a better set up than the ranges that I know of which are set up only with known distance standard setups (benches and targets, 100-300yards.. oh boy.. ).
Jen <FALGirl@fnfal.com>
Hey, who made the snow stop!, Waiting for the Blizzard to come back.., USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 07:14:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.209.30.48)
Dave Liwanag -

You can reach Pelican Cases at www.pelican.com
 
 

Armor Piercing Fred -

Just inquisitive. Where do you shoot +1,000 yards in south Florida? The closest "range" of that size I know of is to sit at the tollbooth on Alligator Alley in Ft. Lauderdale and aim towards Naples!

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 07:53:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.171)


MicTac: great! Now all I have to do is figure out where I got the info. I've not talked with the Chandlers, and only took one issue of the magazine (not that one). But I know I got it from somewhere, and could have sworn it was Dick Swan. Maybe it was, and HE got the location wrong! Yeah, that's the ticket! HA! About the "halucination" stuff though, you gotta lay off that, you're sounding like my wife ;-)

The Good Jen, I dunno what's changed around Houston in the last few years, but there was a place we did lots of shooting about 80 miles away. Take 290 up to highway 6, and then keep cruising ;-) If you're game, I've got a great good buddy in your neighborhood that I swear wouldn't freak at the sight of your "ensemble". He's quite the guy, even though he did "go Army" HA! But a better guy would be hard to find. Besides, I get the feeling that one date would repay all those "I owe you one"s that he hasn't collected on LOL

Long-chicom-Rifle: I'd watch it rather closely. You might have the only one, but at this point in time, eyes aren't replacable commodities. Those things are known for kB!'s, and that's not a good thing. If it lets go, it'll do it abruptly, and most assuredly not allow you to "have a nice day".
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the proud, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 07:59:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.218)


Lady and Gents,

Bravo and I did have a great conversation this eve...
He's looking for a bolt gun in a caliber that is not a "mangle-um". I made the same pilgrimage last year and wound up with the 6.5 X .284. Seems like barrel life is going to be an issue. I hear everything from 1300 on up. Personally, I'm going to shoot mine and rebarrel as needed. I know that I'll get at least that of the magnums I was looking to replace. Perhaps better, and THAT was what I was looking for...

Trouble is that there are not that many rounds that fill the bill. The 6.5 X .284 does, but I decided on it only after the announcement of "factory" brass and Black Hills "factory" ammunition.

Dave L's comments earlier this eve support my decision. The 6.5 X .284 kicks ass on the circuit. Bravo and I think it will do what the big .300 will do on soft targets and suspect it may do very well against the harder variety.

What Bravo and I discussed was velocity parameters, expansion ratios, and ballistic coefficients. He was considering going to an '06. Trouble is you're still moving the same .30 cal bullet at a minimal velocity gain over the .308.

On the other hand with the 6.5 X .284 you're gaining approx. 300-350 FPS and the ballistic coefficient of the 6.5 is considerably better than the .30 cal 175 grainer he was seeking to replace. It's a win-win for the shooter. You get flatter trajectory, superb accuracy, and it's all in a package that (to me) recoils slightly less than the .308 and WAY LESS than the big .300's it replaces. Not to mention the 6.5 buck the wind better.

Guess I'm rambling on, but can tell you in no uncertain terms I love this cartridge and the Chandler rifle it resides in...

One thing I wanted to clarify is that my rifle is chambered specifically for the Black Hills Ammunition OAL of 2.98". My reamer is so cut...You can seat out farther if you want, but will need to modify the reamer slightly. Jeff Hoffman designed this to use Ramshot "Big Boy" and give about 100% load density. It works for me and I highly recommend it to you.

More later, I have 40 rounds, loaded with H4831SC, to test in the next day or two...will report back results from the 600 yard line.

Have a Happy New Year.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 08:08:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.179)


What a drag, getting a new rifle in the winter. I'm going to have to scout around for an outdoor range I can shoot at without being a member and just wear warm clothes. This is silly, shooting at an indoor range with a .308. That'll teach me to have concentrated more on handguns than rifle all those years. There's at least one 1000 yard range here but you gotta be a member to shoot there. And naturally, there's a waiting list.

I'm surprised to hear about the iffiness of the 700PSS. I've got a pre-owned, trigger adjusted VS, that I'm hoping shoots as well at long ranges as it does at short. I like the stock on this. I wonder if I'd like the police stock better. I'm happy with this varmint stock now.

I've shot buffalo guns out past 800 yards, and using an original 45/70 Springfield Trapdoor rifle (not carbine - and not a buffalo gun) I hit the gong at that distance. This wasn't with the tang sight, just the ladder style.

As you have probably surmised, I was never in the military. Turned 18 in '75 and just missed the draft, and then didn't join on my own. Now I'm too old. Feel I sort of jipped myself out of something a man oughta do when he can.

Have good weekend, everyone.
 

Doug McKay <DNMcKay@bigfoot.com>
Waiting for Spring in, Minnesota, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 08:51:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.101.252.62)


Electronic Earmuffs ?

I have to buy a new pair and I am leaning toward the Peltor unit with the Radio jack so I can Motorola the guy in the range control room.

any help on these ? what do they cost in the US ?

thanks

t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 10:04:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.42)


Ok I hav ben sitting heare for 30min.bitting my toung.
and i will not say what i wanted to about this LP thing.
sounds like a verry young person to me.not ready to hear
that ccind of lingo quite yet.
bud <offah@hotmail.com>
Greens Fork , In., USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 10:08:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.106.153.51)
Don't know if any of you have seen this. What a riot!

There is a petition on the web calling for a "a Class Action Lawsuit against the election and against Bush".

Most of the "false entry voided" signatures are from the rowdies over at AR15.com.

Too pathetic!

Back to lurking

Minuteman
Minuteman <minuteman2k@hotmail.com>
The Frozen Ozarks, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 10:15:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 150.199.206.155)


ROTFLMAO! I saw this over there a few weeks back but I never checked on the link. I'm proud of my fellow AR15.com'ers. I'm an AR15 goofball first and a Rosterfarian second.

I love where the petition asks the state and they respond "State of Denial?"

That certainly brought a smile to my face.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 10:43:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)


PeteR...
"Lito "had" a little lamb?"

Jeez... I don't get no respect!
And youse guys that got that picture of me and the "broad" on the motorcycle need to know that it was totally innocent... I just took her for a ride... and anyway, she was too young, ugly, and her daddy's house has flat tires! We didn't do nuttin'!!
Boltster dudeski... you're in deep poo-poo!

iiii's...
"Will the 7.62 detonate things like;"
propane bottels = NO!
auto fuel tanks = NO!
gas mains = NO!
grenades = Very Unlikely!
C4 = NO!
TNT = NO!
Etc... as in 100% Gelatin = Oh yeah, and very rightious!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 12:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.43)


Hey Folks,

Just when you thought you had a grip on this handload stuff.........

go to : http:www.alliantpowder.com and check out the press release on the DOD adopting RE-15 for use in the M-118LR! Well we KNOW sometimes the right choices are not made, and sometimes they are.

How abouts some of us collectively go out and get a cannister or two, and chrono it out of differing rifles and check for accuracy + usual velocity factors.

To keep it relative use Sierra 175's, Federal match primers, Brass? and load to 2.800" AOL. Set chrono screens 15' from muzzle.

any takers??
 

Heck even you "gas gunners" can help on this one!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 13:07:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.22)


Chinese M14 Stocks:

Didnt bother to mention that because there is so much surplus USGI wood and fiberglas around so cheap and the Chinese stocks are *so* bad, that I assumed that everybody would replace to wood as a matter of course. :)

Reloader 15:

No experience with this one, but we have to keep in mind that Alliant is a huge contractor for the military, from the OCIW thingie to solid rocket motors for missiles, on and on. There are any number of economic and other factors that may be in play here. I await the results of others here, but decline to join in owing to a lack of time and a lack of anticipation that its going to work any better that Varget, which I got lots of.
 

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 13:34:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.84.155)


Torsten,

Just scanned a couple Peltor product pages via Northern light. VELLY INTERESTING.

Only negative thoughts are the 25 Db reduction seems a little low for long exposures to HP rifle,[but then I use both ergomolded plugs and 27 Db muffs for static range stuff]. and possibility of disturbing cheek weld to stock.

For commo with range tower, other safety/R.O.'s, or a situational command center they look like a GREAT choice. Probably even pipe in some soothing Musik or whale sounds ;-)
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 13:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.28)


PeteR...

The A-191 (300WM) round uses Alliant powder... R-22.
I recall reading a notice of the tests, and Lake City found that IMR 4350 was a bit fast in high temperatures, and IMR 4831 was temperature/velocity sensitive... and that R-19, and R-22 had the best accuracy, and the best temperature stability from -40 to +125.
"Sinister" Dave sent me the site page for this info.

I know that LC has been looking at the temperature/velocity issue for a while on the M118-LR round (and I understand that they are either weighing, or are going to weigh the M118 cases).

They may have passed on the "Extream" powders, because they are made in Australia, and the Military is getting more and more concerned about "Vital War Materials" being made overseas...

... of course it's the goddamned EPA, and the courts, that are breaking the backs of our own makers of explosives, munitions, and about everything else... but I won't get on that soap box right now!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Good Jen... I shut off the Blizard... I HATE that shit!!, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 13:42:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.43)


Fred, I am sitting here with my waders on. Now that we have played the game lets think about this awhile. One thing not right is that you some how think you need AP to see a hit at 1000 yards. Now having hit more than a couple of steel targtets at that distance I can tell you that hits with a 308 or larger can be seen with a spotting scope on steel, no need for AP. Since you are shooting AP out of a 338 Lapua, where did you get the AP bullets? Last I heard Lapua was the only one with them and they were not importing them into the US and I think we may have a little problem/legally if you have them. So please explain. Next thing is what type of steel will stand up to a 338 Lapua with AP at 1000 yards? That round is designed to penetrate APC's at that distance so I am wondering what you have for a plate. Dude you may be on the level but this sounds like a load of pure BS to me. I wont even get into the shooting ability issue.

Bravo,I love the 308, you all know that, but if you want Magnum type performance try the 260 Remington. It is a 6.5mm that does not eat the bbl so fast and flys like a 300win. It does not have the energy of a 30cal but will get there flipping off the wind and saving the shoulder on the way. You be Mr. Realoader will get what the caliber is capable of, plus brass is all over the place.

All this talk of the M25 has left me with the idea of puttinga good mount and scope on my Gardner built M14 Match and goingfor it. Please no one faint I am about to play with a gas gun. Now to find a deal on a good mount. I looked through my kit and only found a Springfiled mount and that one ended badly last time. Thats why its not on a rifle.

Pete, 90plus grains of powder ina 30Cal, sounds more like a 50cal.LOL I run in the mid 80's with a 300 grainer and RL22 in my 338 Lapua and get 2850 fps of of sledge hammer (both ends)with either the Norma or Lapua (my favorite) cases. I run mid 70's with RL 22 in my 300 Win and get 2800fps with 220's (also not for recoil sensitive folks).

Pablito, I love that RL22 in the big loudumboomers also. I ahve gotten more vbelocity with IMR7828 but never as good as groups.

Dave, the sinister one, I am also a fan of 4064 in the 308 Win. I tried messing with hopped up 155's but I will stick with 175's in 308Win. Much better results and no split cases. I had one of the Marine Corp loads go more than bang in a rifle. TOO MUCH PRESSURE. Your brother that shot for the Coast Guard, the same one with OPD? Either way have the OPD one get ahold of me I have something they might be interested in.

Undude cutting the tips on my bulets so I can compete against Fred. Where is that chain saw anyway?
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 14:59:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)


I have the opportunity to purchased some pulled .223 tracer bullets. Some have orange tips and weigh 61 grains, while there are others with red tips that weigh 64 grains. They are the same length. Does anyone know the difference between the two?

Thanks in advance - TP
TP <tprisk@ibm.net>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 15:46:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.106.33)


TP

Are you sure about the weight of the red tipped ones? I get about 52.5 grains on the ones that I have. They are used in 55gr (M196)round which approximates the trajectory of the 55gr (M193)round.
The orange tipped ones that I have weigh about 60.5 grains. They are used in the 63gr (M856)round which approximates the trajectory of the 62 gr (M855) round. The M856 also traces longer. I tink this made sense.

John
 

John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 16:37:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.119)


Jen,
There is a 500 meter range here in Lufkin, and the fees are reasonable. There is also a local 1K range, but it is private and you have to know the right person to ask if they can take you to shoot there.

Also of interest, there will be a fun varmint type rifle match in Late January with targets from 100 to 600 yards at unknown ranges..... for a cash pot that is guaranteed to be at least $200 bucks.

BTW, Lufkin is North-Northwest of Houston on Hwy 59. A bit of a drive.

Anyone holler if you want more info.
da Judge out.

da Judge <pruett@inu.net>
Lufkin, Tx, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 16:56:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.151.0.104)


Lady and Gents,

Seems to be lot's of info passing. Interested in the guvmints switch to RE-15 for M118LR. I'm having great luck with Varget, as are most of you shooting .308s. I have loaded RE-15 in some 165 gr. hunting rounds. Guess this is going to leave me one more thing to look at...
I will pass on, that Boot's Obermeyer told me, that some of the Varget shooters were reporting more throat erosion than with other powders. Take that advice for the .02 it's worth.

Undude - I'm in shock. The sites' own "Evil Gas Gunner" Bravo has you thinking of scoping your M1A! AAACCHH! There must be something we can do to "purify" him. Let's see, Christians and lions, crosses, bury nech deep in an ant hill...? Ah, I got it. Since Gas Gunning is obviously a "left brain" thing a lobotomy should do it!

Must be a virus, 'cuz I'm thinking of doing it, too. On the other hand we got him thinking bolt guns so turn about is fair play.
Besides, as my bride is fond of saying, "a man can never have to many guns".

Your comment on the 6.5/08 being a match for .300 Winch...can't see it. I did the trajectory match ups and the 142 gr/6.5 and 190 gr/.300, both at 2,950 FPS, are all but identical. If you can get that velocity out of a 6.5/08 more power to you, but I'm NOT going to pull the trigger on it. Probably need a compressed load of Bullseye to do it...:-O

As for 'lito's new "lady friend" take it easy on the guy. You've NEVER dated a less than gorgeous lady? Besides, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and it looked like he "be holden" her pretty tight!
Bolt, you done good on this one, lad!

Rain stopped this morn. Looks like sun in going to break through. Time to load my gear and head to the range.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 16:57:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.80)


Ref: Electronic Muffs

I got a pair of Peltor Tactical 6-S for Christmas.
I couldn't be happier.
They are light and effective and can be balled up to the size of a softball.
I still have a pair of the original "Wolf Ears" from years ago but they are huge compared to the Peltor.

Ref: Gas Guns

Gas guns will just break your heart.

I've had a string of M1As like one bad marriage after another.

My first was a full-up factory built NM. One day it would make me proud and the next day it would make me crazy. I got rid of her.

A couple of years later that "lust" returned and I said 'I do." to another one. This one was much the same as the first but she had the bad habbit of spitting the extractor. I'd be shooting along and then get a stoppage. Upon examination I'd notice the extractor was gone. Each time I was able to find it laying amoung the brass.

Now with all this M21/M25 talk that old feeling is coming back. If I get involved with another "slut from Springfield" it's going to be on your heads. Damn! I thought I was over this. I'd better call my therapist.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 17:19:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.209.39)


Bravo - MicTac is right and I forgot to mention that. The Marines welded both the M21 recievers AND the M40s for a while. Of course, you know you can't call a Marine a Jarhead...a jar denotes something that is useful and that you can put something into, hehe now about that army thing about "he went army". A moron during the planning of the M24 wanted to weld the bases and rings to the receiver for "positive zero retention" and I told him over my dead body. A guy that worked Rock Island and was at the meeting remembered my anger over it some 4 years later when I helped wit the M24 TM. Also forgot about the dove tail. That is one of the things that made the ART II such a pain in the arse to get mechanical zeroed and way too much stress on the mount.

MIKE!!!! - Tell me it ain't so! I would NOT use the Springfield mount.

Have fun and hold hard guys, back to tearing down Christmas lights.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 17:22:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.26)


Would like any info you might have on the 338 Lapua.
What muzzle velocities might one exspect with a 250 grain MK ?
How does the 338 Ultra compare in velocities?
Thanks for your input....Jim the Plumber
Jim the Plumber <jaf666@nwi.net>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 17:38:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.39.22.196)
Geez, ask a simple question and everybody rags on you.
I feel at home already.

come on bud I'm 39 and holding, let me have it.

Mictac its 4 i's, and you show me how first. LOL

pablito, thanks for the straight answer, now i dont have to go to the back 40 and experiment. the cows might have gotten nervous.

sooo i'll try another question, my dad is one of the 6 or 8 guys from the wolfhound division to come out of Korea alive. A few weeks ago he recieved some medals in the mail. There was no letter, no explaination, zip
anybody have any idea wtf?
the V.A. said his records were destroid in a fire, years ago when he first went to the V.A. hospital.

iiii's <mikelsam@ipa.net>
nowitsnowing, Ar, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 17:45:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.128.140.23)


Andy's Dad...

>>"I've had a string of M1As like one bad marriage after another."<<

I've had one bad marriage after another, and if any of them treated me half as good as my "Slut from Springfield", I'd still be married... HA! (as Pat would say).

I've had the M21 (outta the box, from Springfield) for about 9 years, and she never says NO! never has a headache, and throws all her garbage in one neat little pile!

Give in to the "lust"... it's good for you, and they have vitamins and minerals ;).

Ask Bravo... he'll tell you

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Not too prowd owner of the worlds ONLY... SA "Gen One" mount that works :(( in the cold, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 18:29:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.121)


peteR:

On RL-15, and even RL-22, I can say that the whole powder series is VERY stable in a wide range of temps.

I use RL-25 in my 300WM instead of RL-22 and get slightly better numbers. RL-25 was made for the 300WM and it shows.

I have not used RL-15, but I would expect a very consistent result.
hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 18:34:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)


PeteR - what kind of powders and bullets are you working with in the RUM? Share some data with me, offline if you will. No sense wasting space here.

And for what its worth everybody else 90 grains of powder is easy. I've gone as high as 111 gr of H870 behind a 175 SMK with no extraction problems. Thats a full case and slight compression. 106 gr behind a 200 SMk, but accuracy leaves a bit to be desired, so I've tried 7828 and N170. Best so far has been just under an inch with N170 and 220 SMK's. I haven't chronoed any of my handloads, because I haven't found the accuracy I'm looking for yet, but factory 180 Noslers chrono 3375 avg out of a 28" Mike Rock 5R with Shrewd brake. That's stepping out.

Pat T
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 18:59:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.51.74)


Lito' normally I only give consultation on guns... but maybe if you got a bigger bike?
Jen' Da Judge there, I dunno if I'd go to a 1000 yard range with him or not? That's a long way to walk back. Them old Texas bueys got a game they play... never mind. Lufkin is pretty place. Any body need advice on guns?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 19:01:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Wes, you are right my post implied the 260 was equal to the 300 Win. Piss poor work on my part. The 260 is not equal to the 300Win. The 260 rem flys a little better than a 308 Win but does not have the energy of the 308 Win. If you are looking for that slight edge without a recoil payment it is a fair choice. Me I prefer to go with more energy all around, hence the 30o Win and 338 Lapua's rock in my world. It seems to me that guys are always wanting an edge but not willing to pay the price. I still believe most guys should stick with a 308 and learn to read the wind not look for the magic bullet.

On the 338 Lapua, Ihear Sierra has some new 250MK's that have the same, just about, BC of the 300 grainers but can be pushed 3000fps plus. Now that is a wind fighter. I hope to get my hands on some soon.

Rick, dont worry only a play toy, not for real work. Boltguns rule for that. The springfield scope mount stinks and will stay in a drawer until someone needs to trade me for it.

Bravo, I may bring that old M14 to the July class and see how far I can hit with it. I need to find over 1000 yards to really ring this thing out. Kinda like "Adjust Fire" with a rifle. I also need to see how far I can hit with a M4. I may put a scope on one and go for it.

Now where did I put those AP Pellets at. Need to hunt some bad tweety birds and need to see my hits on them.
 

Undude
 

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 19:06:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.184)


Jen,
there is a 600 yard range in Katy, I believe...if your in Hou area, you know where that is.

Wes, on the Vget, yes it is a tad harder on the throats, but a lot of guys will trade that off for the vel deviations stability.
(Side note, Re 15 is a double base powder me thinks, and as such, will/is a throat eater also).

My Personal load of choice to date, is IMI Match,175's, 42.2, IMR -4064, 210M's,.003 NT, @ 2.80-2.810, max...........practical tactical.
(Side note, 4064 IMR is one of the least erosive, single base).( as Dave said, is a bear to load for, but worth it).

If it won't feed from the box, it doesn't go in my rifles.
This load shoots sub .250 moa @ 500, and the same at 100......1-12 twist, Hart, 26".( If you're gonna try it go ahead, straight from Sierra manual, (I had to find out the hard way, can't do any better).

( Usual rules apply, use at your own peril, back off 10% to start, and work up).

Anyone ( almost), can make their rifle shoot smaller holes runnin' long, but, in LEO / MIL ops, that ain't an option. So, why practice what you can't use?.

Pete R,
use IMI match or LC brass, and I bet a dollar to the donut if you use the load above you will be a near carbon copy.( variables being same, i.e. barrel length, and conditions.( on the M118LR test.)

Lil' Bro, well, you can always go the 155's@ 2800+, .308..........
or the other we discussed.( 1-12, sub moa @ 1K).........interested???

As the famous gunfighter, sniper par excellance said, " enough Cheet Chat!!!!!!!!".

Two Snow Shoes
Time for skiing in Big "D".
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 21:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.188)


Lady and Gents,

Just back from the 600 yard line. Actually was at the range and had to wait for the fog to lift, so I could shoot. Try not to hate me to much...the range, complete with military style butts is only six miles from my house!

Results...

Both my 5 shot groups with the 6.5 X .284 averaged about 3 1/4" x 3 1/4". Not bad, but still not what I'm looking for...got to mention that the loose nut behind the butt plate wasn't in his best form either. At least that's what it felt like.

Amazingly, the correct elevation for this load is 11.25 MOA. That's 1/2 MOA flatter than I had previously predicted.

Not bad, but know I can do better.

Load was a 142 gr. Sierra(OAL: 2.98")
54.6 gr. H4831SC
Fed 210 M
Norma brass
Velocity: 2,960 FPS

My .308 190 gr. load did it's consistent 5" x 5" group at 600 yards.
consistent and dead on at 14 3/4 MOA.

THE WINNER: My pet load consisting of a 175 gr. Sierra(2.800" OAL)
44.0 gr Varget, Federal 210 M primer, and a Lapua case went into an AMAZING 1 1/2" x 2 1/8" GROUP. Point of aim/point of impact at 600 yards using 15 MOA shot from my Obermeyer barreled M40A1 clone!

THAT'S AN AMAZING .25 MOA AT 600! I'm definitely keeping this one!

All for now. Will continue the work with the 6.5 X .284 and report in as development proceeds.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 21:01:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.205)


iiii- (see I can count to four)- That's really a piss poor act by the government. No respect at all.
But, what do you realy expect from slick Willy? Honor? HAHAHA!
Mict <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 21:18:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.8.28.166)
THINGS THAT GO BOOM:

To whoever asked about whether its feasible to detonate things like propane bottles etc with 308 rounds:

Tracers do not routinely ingnite flammables like in the movies. I have never tried it with Armor Piercing Incendiary (API) rounds, but have never been issued that kind of ammo even as a Machine Gunner, let alone as a sniper.

While I am far from a Ballistic God like most people here are, I would really hesitate to even consider putting API through a sniper rifle.

In my opinion, military snipers should not aspire to set off explosions. If you want that (and situation does dictate) then call in Arty or an Air Strike.

An explosion has its merits, but;

So does one well placed round which takes out a key leader, gunner or what have you.

What does more damage to a unit in the long run; an explosion, or dropping a units point man and waiting until they have settled down and pick up to move again and taking the next point man.

Would you want to be the next point man? Or the next?
(I am not advocating sticking around too long)

Does that cause long term tension between the troops (i.e. potential point men) and the leadership of the unit? I bet it would. For a long time to come. And the next point man would be pretty damn cautious, and the rest of the unit would be scared for a long time.

And there is something remarkably discouraging about an enemy which you outnumber and out gun who takes advantage of you while you can't do anything effective to stop it.

The leaders would be under alot of pressure. Soldiers look to them to have all the answers and when they can't solve them, they lose the trust/confidence and sometimes the loyalty of the men.

There really aren't any immediate ones for something like that which can restore the confidence/morale of the unit without significant damaage.

So my point is, that sniping really isn't necesarrily about creating mass casualties in every case. There are other types of damage to inflict.

Happy New Year Everyone!
 

Jefe
Jefe <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Sunday, December 31, 2000 at 23:55:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.45.197)