Sniper Country Duty Roster

November 1999

Dave,
I was not trying to knock the Jap. 6.5 rifle round. But no, it dont look like a 25-06 to me. It looks more like a 6.5 manlicher round than any thing else to me. Nevertheless it was an effective round, and I will venture to say that your typical Jap. sniper killed more of his enemy than the other way around. (as long as he had ammo to shoot). Chesty Puller had a grudging respect for the Jap. sniper and admitted that their rifles and scopes were much better than ours at that time.
I have a question for you on the M118LR round. Just what is the muzzle velocity supposed to be for this round out of a 24 inch barrel?
I have no access to this ammo, but this is what I know. The Marines asked for a bullet equal to the B.C. of the 173 gr. bullet at a velocity of 2575 fps. to stay supersonic out to 1000 yards. Sierra came up with a 175 gr. bullet in response to this need, and sample lots of this ammo was sent to Quantico for testing. The day that they tested it the ammo temperature was held to 120 degrees F. and they got a velocity of 2675 f.p.s at that temperature. All the other types of ammo that they tested that day was also keep warm, and all gave higher than normal readings. Their Chronographs were suspected as being faulty, and were checked over by service techs. Just what the results of this were, I do not know.
Any light you or anyone else can shed on this would be much appreciated.
Steve <nato@ bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 00:03:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
You're right on the 6.5 Jap (I must have lost my mind. Can't remember what round comparison I was thinking of). On the M118LR, if I remember correctly, the Marines rejected it because it exceeded SAAMI specs for pressure (I believe the tests were, indeed, conducted in the summer). Someone then decided to check all the variables, including the calibration of the chronographs and their software. After a re-check (I'm not sure exactly whether it was Lake City's reps' chrono or the guys running the test, but it wasn't the Marines) they found the ammo WAS within SAAMI specs, and they called and asked for a re-shoot, after which the ammo passed. I don't know what the muzzle velocity is (I don't own a chrono), and if I was shooting Army-bought ammo I don't care if it's a shoot-once and throw away case (if it's MY gun, though, I have to buy my own components like evrybody else). I like the idea of the 6.5/284. George Nyfeler III (his dad was a well-respected former SF guy, and NRA tech consultant) has shot one for a while, as has Spec4 Stewart Mackey of the All-Guard Team. A 1,000 yard load that fits in a short/standard action without knocking you silly for shooting on the range all day. Don't know what the re-barrel rate between rounds is, but if it beats 1200-1500 for the 300 Win Mag it should be a deal. Anyone tried the short 30 Lazzeroni yet? 3100 fps advertised in a short action-length round, without a belted case. Don't get wrapped too tight about any one gun/round combo. The military teaches 7.62 because it's our standard, and generally not a bad cartridge (for everything from a "Day 1" sniper student to the operational soldier/sailor/marine) for the shooter who PRACTICES. But it's the SHOOTER, not the gun, which is the critical part of the sniper SYSTEM. My guys have taught the M21, M24, M40, 03A4, M1C/D, 700 PSS, SVD, FPK, PSG-1, Barrett, E-I-E-I-O, all over the world, if that's what the host country or allies own, or whatever is in the golf bag (CAR-15 with a scope, Mosin-Nagant off the rack, etc.). Get a good gun/glass combo (if you don't want a 7.62, don't buy a 7.62 -- just don't be pissed off if you can't get precision components, or if they're expensive as hell, or your lawyer won't let you take it to work). Then, like the champion he was, go out to the range like Gunny Hatchcock and shoot it -- A LOT, so you know what it and you are capable of. Maybe go and shoot prairie dogs, coyotes, rabbits, or deer. Woodscraft is more than half the sniper's needed skill (sniper school teaches you put all your skills together, or teach those with a foundation, but it can't teach you how to be good in the woods or in town). A good friend keeps reminding me "You can teach a monkey to shoot. It takes brains to read winds."
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 01:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)
ABOUT TEXAS BRIGADE ARMORY.He has been leaving his answering machine,but if he is there he will pick up.He is still back log with work.It is a one man operation.I called last week and talk to him.
Keep trying.
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR TXNG <PETEC@CIRIS.NET>
C.C., TX, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 01:36:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.51.228.202)
Hi all,
A friend had a custom rifle built on a Remington 700 long action chambered for 8mmx57. He is looking for a load using the Sierra 175 Gr spitzer. Anyone out there familiar with this cartridge, and can you recommend a load that you have personally tried. I know this info is available in books but we would like to cut some corners to a "good" combination of powder, primer, for this bullet and thought someone might have a "tried and true" recipe they could recommend. Thanks... Str8shot
Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
south central, MI, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 04:25:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.117.54.87)
I have used the M118LR at Quantico last year and it works great. I like this stuff alot. Problem is, as you said, we'll see it again about the time I'm up for MSgt. (I'll probably make PFC first!) I am really leary of the barrel going that long though. My M1A has gone through two barrels that went about 6000 rds(Krieger) each. My M1A was not exposed to sand, dirt and filth like my M40 is. My AR15 is going on 9000 rounds and it's still chugging along, but 223 seems lacking in the sniper dept. Old receivers may be better off from a pride/care of manufacting point of view but they do wear out. My bolt binds because there is too much play in the rails and the cocking cam is galling(or something) because rapid bolt manipulation is a beast(but on the positive side I have a huge right forearm, no jokes please) We're working on the ammo problem but I imagine it'll get worse before it gets better. Maybe I should ask for donations? Wish I had souveniered some M118LR for eval, but no such luck. A friend who was an instructor at Quantico said that it was clocking something a bit faster than you would expect from a 175gn 308, but I don't recall numbers. BTW whoever said that they were shooting a 223 at 1000, you gotta be real careful about the damn bullets dropping subsonic. We have had problems in WI with the 80 Sierras not having enough ass on em out a service rifle to make it. Off course the winds at Lodi are a royal bitch so one minute you're busting X's and then you're hitting two targets over. You laugh, I've done it and it wasn't a cross fire either. Semper Fi...Ken (Echo Five Mike)
Ken <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 04:27:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.213)
Hey all. Thought I would update you on something I been working on. That Springfield Armory M1A National Match is now shooting just dandy. All I need now is to get the scope back from Leupold (it's having the mil-dot reticle put in). Anyway, my testing went like this: I coated the scope from rear ring to front ring (inclusive) with blue playdoh. Yeah, playdoh. It's good to have kids in the house. Then I went out and shot the thing with 100 rounds. Results: 1 LIGHT glancing blow to the scope tube forward of the adjustments, 4 or possibly 5 (hard to tell) SMALL hits (definately not full force, just dented the goo) to the windage turret. Now the neat part is that the dings were evenly distributed along the length, so going with the Mark 4 M3 would NOT cut these problems out (Thanks Mr. Liwanag, you're more than right!) but it might half them. Who cares. That many minor dings per hundred isn't worth worrying about. Right? Now those of you that have given suggestions, and all were truly appreciated, might think that I was origionally wrong. So was the case KIND OF. Seems that the "hump" of the op rod was catching the brass. It never did that before, and just to make sure that I wasn't off my rocker, I took off the mount and all. Shooting it without the mount, rings & scope there were no hits on the op rod. Go figure that one, I sure can't! Thanks to DC8plumber for that clue! Anyway, if anyone out there needs a hand in getting a M1A working properly with the big scope, drop me a line. I sure appreciate all the help I've got with my project! Now all I have to do is make sure that I'm in shape for the next competition.... don't want any brand shot gun poised at my lower rectum, nor do I want to set the record for TOO much girth (I'm working hard to make up for PeteR) :-)

Re: 6.5's. I love 'em, especially that Swede! Man, who ever came up with that one ought to have his weight in beer supplied free of charge yearly. I think I'm gonna sell my Swede Mauser though, hard enough to find a good stock, and then mounts? Now I'm thinking about that nifty Mohawk Remington action and how it would look in a 260 (since there's hardly any difference between the two). Hard part will be finding one... Any suggestions for good short actions from Rem? This is quite a lot from a guy hell bent on selling everything except a few rifles....

THANKS GUYS, I OWE YOU ONE.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 04:41:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.171)

Ken: you're absolutely right! I shot NRA hi-power service rifle comp for a long time. Seen some good '16's on the line too. Did just wonderful (you can change the barrel out for higher weights and stay legal) too, as long as the wind was down. When the second (or for the really good guys, third) wind sock came up, they all popped the bolt open and DQ'd. Only saw one guy stick it out all the way in bad wind, said he was aiming two targets over to compensate! No joke! I think I'll keep the 7.62 though... HA! By the way, some of those M1 Garands really kicked butt too.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 04:52:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.171)
On the M118LR. I've got the NSWC tests on the stuff and according to doppler tests at 25 deg F, 75% humidity, at 600 feet, the muzzle velocity out of a given M40A1 was 2622 for M852, 2630 for M118 and 2681 for M118LR. Retained velocity at 1000 yds was 1109 for M852, 1209 for M118 and 1237 for M118LR. THis gave BC's at .487,.537 and .537 respectively. This is a good example of how BC's aren't the final word in describing accuracy of a round as M118 and M118LR come up the same BC. CONSISTENCY is a big player with M118LR being much more consistent than the M118.

I believe the 175gr Federal Match/Black Hills loads are basically the same as the M118LR.

Anybody got any sources for flexible cleaning rods besides Otis and "The Worlds Fastest Bore CLeaner"? I used a brass colored one once but can't remember who made it.

Out here.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 04:52:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142)

ART II Scope Availability:

To the individual that asked about this.
The Civilian Marksmanship Program has these for sale. they sound a bit dog eared but.... The URL to CMP is: http://www.odcmp.com/

Sorry but I cant give you the exact page URL because their site isnt responding tonight. Look for the page of specials.. its on there. I can't recall the price.

J "did I miss anything in the last 4 days?" T
JT - MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@www.memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 08:58:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Here is the info on the site and scope that JT was talking about.

Specias>

NLU# 097

Riflescope ART II
Riflescope, ART II, missing parts/need repair, spots on lenses with mount and case. Note: Only one of each item per customer per year.
$275.00

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
MD, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 09:52:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.12)

Gooch: Dewey makes nylon coated cleaning rods that work well. Available through any shooting supply joint.

R. Boucher: On the 338, has the military tested the rifle with a suppressor? Would seem to be one way to keep the halo from a brake down, and also lessen recoil should that be desired. A friend brought a 338L [Sako] over a few weeks ago...recoil is pretty strong when shooting at paper, or the like, but when we turned it on a coyote in the river bottoms...can't say I really recall the pain...although it was a miss at too far. Recoil is a relative thing, you know? I wouldn't shoot trap with my 10 guage, but when shooting at fliers...you can pretty much go as long as needed, assuming you have a need for that gun.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 15:12:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

To Dave Liwanag and all on 6.5X284 barrel life.
I have not used the 6.5X284 but I shoot the 6mmX284 a lot and the barrel life on it is about 1800 rounds, I am on the third barrel on my 6mmX284 now, and that is with me shooting and I am the hard on barrels, I shoot them hot and dirty, so I think the barrel life on the 6.5 should be something better than this. If you can find any info on the 6.5-06 it would help as the cases are almost identical in case cap.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 15:14:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.102.31)

.243 PSS ???

A local sport shop had one of those Remington "dealer's sales" and there were several PSS rifles (no .308's). The one in .243 seemed interesting so I bought it... couldn't help my self the price was very right. I suspect its a .243 VS in PSS furniture, in my case for $100 less than the VS.

I'm wondering if the .243 PSS is something Rem is doing now or was it an experiment. Anybody have any experience with them, and what do they shoot well?

Dave
(MCSO 403)

MCSO 403 <dandrox@montana.com>
Missoula, MT, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 16:32:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.2.139.183)

Dave,
I found my notes on the 6.5 compared to the 308 at 1000yds. The 260 doing 2650fps with the 142s still is doing 1367.5fps at 1000 with a retained energy of 589.6ftlbs of energy and the 308 at 2650 is doing around 1186.3 with a retained erergy of 524.9ftlbs of energy. I upped mine to 2700fps so its even better. The long thin bullets just keep flying once you get them started and I am sure the added velocity makes the difference at the 1000yd mark.

Jerry,
Your probably pushing the 6mms a lot faster and using a lot more powder too, esp if you have the 1-14 or 12 twist for the lighter bullets. They are definately the hot rod of the varmint calibers. How did yours shoot and what twist did you use?? Was it finiky on loads??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 17:23:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

NOTE: Timney Triggers has finally released an after-market trigger for the Savage long & short-action rifles. Cost is $85 delivered. It is adjustable for engagement, pull, creep, etc. and from weights of 2 to 4 pounds. This should satisfy those who want a nice consistant pull for hunting or whatever.

The trigger from Fred @ Sharpshooters Supply is another excellent(!) Savage trigger but it only adjusts from 6 ounces to 2 pounds.

Timney can be reached @ (602) 274-2999.
Lefty <dfhubbard@erols.com>
Milton, MA, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 21:35:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.172.245.39)

.300 WHISPER.

Recently someone asked if I could get them an upper receiver in .300 Whisper from Olympic. I am reluctantly mentioning this on the Roster because the guy’s Email bounces every time I try to reply.

Paul (Ppchamp), if you are reading these words, YES. I can get you the .300 Whisper. In fact, it is IN STOCK and ready to ship. Please email me again and include your phone number. I will call you with details and pricing. Thanks.

Scott Powers

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 21:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.88.54)

Midsouth Shooter's Supply (1 888 746 6837) carries Timney for about 1/3 less than Timney sells their stuff for. MSS is a good outfit.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 23:21:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.89)

Braumeister Bravo:
Your friends are lucky they have someone willing to go through all the work of providing decent beer.

Pablito:
Springfield Armory told me last year that only the current (later style) 1st Gen scopes allow sunshades since their threads extend to the end of the front bell. My front objective bell appears to have been cut in a lathe so that the threads stop before the end of the objective. An inwardly angled projection ( a cross section like a saw tooth- wraps around the entire interior circumference of the tube edge ).
Doesn't make much sense from a production cost- one more step.
I can't see a seam indicating it is removeable.

Re: plastic tubing.
A 58mm metal camera lens sun shade is about the right size.
I'm keeping a look out for some black plastic tubing, but I don't have much clearance between the bell OD and the barrel; perhaps 3mm. If I used a slip over tube, I'd probably end up chucking the sunshade material in my 8"" lathe and turning down the OD a bit for clearance.
Black silcone adhesive seems to be the best bet so far as I should be able to remove it without damage to the finish. I may end up combining an adhesive with some sort of VERY WEAK mechanical clamping force; I don't want to stress the optics.
I guarantee I will put a lot of thought into this before I do something that can't be undone.

Utgardaloki
Somewhere in the land of driver I.D. bargains...

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 23:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

RE: Filters.
Need band-pass or band-stop optical filters?
Try www.edmundscientific.com/

Utgardaloki
Somewhere in the mis-guided midwest...

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois , USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 23:52:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Re Plastic Tubing;
Someone I'm not sure who is making hose clamps from heat shrink tubing.Or you could apply a layer of HST to the objective bell and then glue to that.HST is great stuff with a bazillion uses,it does however generate a sorta-glue that helps it adhere.Anything that you can slip this stuff over can be "armored" with it.
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 00:37:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.197)
Pat;
Mine is set up for 107 gr. Sierra MK's with a one in 9" twist. It has a K&P fluted 30" barrel with a Vais muzzle brake. It will shoot most anything at 3/8". I have used five different powders all with great accuracy. The barrel on the rifle now is new so I use 64.5 gr. of RVO 62 and this will top 3400 fps just a little with the 107 Sierra or the 105 Berger. They both shoot well but I like the Sierra best, less fouling, less cleaning than the Berger. As the barrel get more rounds thru it I will increse the powder to 66 gr. The 6.5X284 should have a little better barrel life than the 6mm, larger bore to case cap.
Again just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 02:39:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.4.211)

Jerry,
How do you like the K&P barrels?? I have heard good things about them. I am thinking om building a 6.5x284 in the next year. I have and action and stock I just need to get the money ahead for the barrel and work. What twist would you go with?? I was thinking of and 8 or 8.5 all I would be shooting is the 140 to 142s.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 13:00:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Hi guys, just some thoughts on 6.5 and also the lens thing.

I have owned a pair of "BluBlocker" sunglasses for some years, and what I discovered immidiately when I got them is that they let you tell the difference between, say, dyed green burlap and (to the naked eye) green leaves look like red and yellow.

This happens because some colors are actually a mix of colors that look the "composite" color to the eye, if now blue is one constituent of this composite color, it will look totally different through a blue attenuating lens.

On the 6.5:
Unless you really need a short light rifle i dont really see the 260 have anything to offer over the 6.5x55.
Remember that factory, and most US load data load the 6.5x55 super soft, in deference to old krags and M96s. In a M98 there is no problem loading 130s to more than 3000. and my 140SierraMKs leave the barrel at 855m/s, or roughly 2850fps.
That makes me wonder if a 6.5/284 is worth the hassle and barrel burning.
Loaded to high(too high for krag and M96) pressures the -55 has a very flat trajectory, and the sectional density makes for good penetration at impact.

BTW, the 6.5/284 is also 55mm long, and so is just a real fat 6.5x55.

K
engvoll <engvoll@norton.no>
Norway - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 14:09:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.254.205.169)

K,
What your saying is true but the 6.5x284 starts where the hot loaded 260 or 6.5x55 ends. The light load for the 140s in the 6.5x284 would probably be in the 2900fps range with the ability to go on up to 3100fps. I have debated the exact question that you posed and since I am not familiar with the limits of the 6.5x55 and how fast I could safely push it I have gone over to the 284 case. Does the accuracy of the 6.5x55 drop off when pushed to 2900?? I can push the 140s in my 260 to right at 2900 but I know its a lot of pressure and will be hard on brass. I guess the other thing is the 284 has had a very good reputation for accuracy at the higher velocities and with less pressure by the design of the case, it should give good case life compared to the 260s.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 14:38:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
All.

have any of you heard of, or used, one of them "CO-AX" brand bullet case uniformity testers? Are they necessary? I have never heard of one, and a buddy of mine saw one in the wholesale sports catalogue, and asked me about it. Is it the next thing best to frozen pizza, or just another gimmic for sale that ya don't need?

Personally, i think that if you need to check the concentricity of the bullet, to the case, you need better dies.

What are your thoughts?

Does anyone here use a rifle that is larger than a .50?

I ask because the .50 is banned here in this country, but i wanna play too.... ;)

Later.
sean thomas <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
mackenzie, bc, canada - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 18:53:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.206.2)

Guys!

Long time no speak! I have a question for you. I have an Eagle stock-pack on my rifle and cam-cream rubbed off my face and onto the nubuck part of it and left a nasty stain on it. Has anyone got a clue how to clean this stuff off?

Also, takr time to visit my review on SMTC's Basic Counter Sniper Course. Its here!

Thanks for thinking with me!

L8er!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 21:08:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.194.60)

Something that may want to stick in your data book. Maybe not.

Say you have a reticle, pencil eraser, decoder ring, whatever, that you want to calibrate in mils without working very hard. That is to say that you want to see how many mils that device subtends. Call that m.

Measure the exact height in inches of something vertical to use to calibrate that gizmo. Convert it to a decimal. Call that measurement h.

Move away the distance that allows the gizmo to exactly subtend h. Measure that distance in yards. Call that d.

Since Gooch’s formula implies that ((m*4)/111)=(h/d)), 9th grade algebra converts that to m=(h/d)*(111/4).

So, unless I screwed up something real easy: (height/distance)*(111/4)=m.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 22:59:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.42)

Check this out www.fbi.gov/library/megiddo/publicmegiddo.pdf . FBI report on possible Y2K domestic terrorism. Could get interesting.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 02:38:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.147)
Guys!
I was hoping someone could help me out.I was a the range the other night sighting in my new LR M3 on my PSS.Well heres were the problem comes up.After the 3rd or 4th 4 shot group(which were fine)each group after that, after the 2nd or 3rd shot of the group the view would come out of focus and would take about a minute of squinting, closing my eyes, or holding my hand over the eyepiece, in order to come back into focus.Anyone have any ideas as to what would cause this?Maybe im not used to shooting at night?
Thanks in advance for any help!!
Manny <MBM74@prodigy.net>
NY, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 05:23:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.167.65.109)
OK guys,

A few of us need an opinion on a "cheap" scope.
Midway has that 3-9x mil-dot scope listed again in this months catalog. Is it worth the $69.00 they are asking? It doesn't apear to have any focus or paralax adjustment, so.......

I know, you get what you pay for. But, can it be a place to start for a newbie to mil-dots to getsome practice?
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
you guys have, seen me post enough times , to figure where I live - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 05:41:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.6)

While talking about long range shooting with some fellow shooters ( amatures like myself) the other day the subject of rain came up. It has me curious now so i'm hopin some of you seasoned shooters have an idea about how rain changes a .30 cal bullets trajectory so i don't have to get all wet finding out.

Thanks to all for the scope info. found out some things i didn't know which will keep me from buying something i didn't want.

I still don't like the Kansas wind but I am realizing it is a good time to shoot as I learn more in a breeze than i do on a still day.
Take care all
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 05:43:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.39)

Manny,
Its not you, I had the same trouble with mine and sent it back to Leupold and they said there was nothing wrong with it but it didn't do it after they returned it. Mine would go out of focus after each shot, you could refocus it and shoot and then you would have to refocus it again and the knob was always in a different spot each time you refocused it. That is fixed but both of mine still don't focus sharp at 100yds with out the cross hairs moving with my eye in order for the cross hairs to stay rock solid on the target i have to focus it so the paster is on the blury side. I finally got tired of sending it back and just live with it since it works great for long range and I don't notice it past one to two hunderd yards, but its a bitch trying to do load testing or real precision shooting at 100 yards. My sons scope is the same way so I know there are some more out there too.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 13:00:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Gooch,

Hey, I tried to access the FBI page you listed but no luck. "Page cannot be found", is the message I get.
I saw on one of the cable news "Shows" that the FBI said that the civilian militias are a threat to the security of the nation. I believe it was on CNN.

Later,
Bill Bledsoe <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 13:35:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.47)

Gooch,
I couldn't get into the sight either would you kindof hit the high points for us so we have and idea of what might be on the horizion??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 15:30:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
The link that Gooch posted is good, just delete the period at the end of the HTML string so it looks like this:
www.fbi.gov/library/megiddo/publicmegiddo.pdf

Thanks Gooch, very interesting!
michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 15:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

"...right-wing...right-wing....right-wing....."

You can sure tell whose political apointees did the final editing on this one. Pretty elementary propaganda technique, but good enough for government work. Dim-witted english-major reporters can rewrite it slightly and make it look like the editorial boards of the "National Review" and "The Wall Street Journal" want to burn babies.

But, even when taken with the required grain of salt, it's interesting.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 17:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.86)

Gent's I'd like some input on B&L scopes. Am seriously considering a 4200 series scope. But prices are real attractive on the 3000 series as well. This will be on a .223 and i won't be shooting much past 400 Meters with it. If any of you have had 1st hand experence with either i'd like to hear from you. And yes I did read the review of the B&L tactical.
Thanks
John
John S. <jrscar@fone.net>
USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 17:42:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.168.252.17)
Mr. Gooch.
Wery untersting article..
More intersting is this: militia is group of 2 (two) or more, have weapons, and train with them...
You could arrest everyone on this site for that...

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
Los Angeles, CA, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 19:02:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.11)

Gooch: thanks for the Federal Bureau of Intimidation web site. Man, how many times can they say 'right wing' in one document? A little on the odd side, but I figure that we won't know the difference between 1 Jan 2000 and 28 Dec 99, except for the kids not waking up early. Who knows, that's why the boy scouts are "always ready".

By the way, you referenced US soldiers carrying the HK 91's in desert warfare. I was at white sands missile range and only had the A2 '16. Is that something "operators" use or what is the deal with that? I guess I can understand that though, those '16s in the blowing sand were a recipe for either a jam or a eaten up aluminum upper!

Guys: you notice that the "arsenal" crap started right up again with that xerox guy in Hawaii? I mean, the way the media punks said that he had 17 guns, an "arsenal"! "What if he had them all there?" Guess those media guys don't think about ammo. Guess no one told him that he couldn't do that, after all Hawaii has the most restrictive laws in the US! Think they'll prosecute him or let him go like the rest?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 19:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)


Where does the term "lock and load" come from?

Does it mean lock the bolt back and load a round?
Does it mean put the safety on (lock the safety) and load a round?

It seems strange to manually lock the bolt back just to chamber a round and With the 1911, M-1, M-14 and M-16 series rifles don’t you have to load a round which cocks the hammer before you can put the safety on?

Should the proper phrase be load and lock?

thanks,
Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 21:14:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Stocks for Savage Rifles:

Check out www.wenig.com for replacement wood and laminate stocks for the Savage rifles. Awesome work - Fred Wenig used to be Operations Mgr for Bishop/Fajen, then went custom. I heard about him by the writings of Jon Sundra.

A laminated stock for Savage would run about <$200, a walnut stock equal to a factory Ruger, Rem, or Win stock would start around $100, less recoil pad. Fancier wood goes up from there, plus they have many patterns including benchrest types and will duplicate any pattern you have for about $25 extra.

They'll do the inletting, checkering, finishing, and will even fit the wood/rifle to you if you show up on their doorstep. I highly recommend their catalog, plus their reputation and service is second to none. Tight groups!
Lefty <dfhubbard@erols.com>
Milton, MA, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 21:50:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.172.255.37)

Tyson,

How much pressure are you putting on your brass? Try to chamber a unloaded piece of brass after you size it. Also the 40X may have been chambered with a BR reamer. If this is the case you may have to turn the necks on your brass. The load you are using is a sound load but I have had better luck with 43.0gr of Varget for both bullets. Are you trimming your brass? I hope so since not doing so may have some dangerous effects on pressure. I trim mine to 1.999". Also you might want to see how much runout you are experiencing, its not usually a factor but one must examine all the possibilities. Is the brass you are using been fired in your weapon exclusively? Sometimes the shoulder can move foreward on you. I have a trick that I use with my .308 win stuff. I use a black "sharpie" pen to draw a lint through the "0" in the 308 headstamp. I position the brass so that the line is always facing down. When fired the brass is always fire formed the same way. This is to eliminate any variable in the chamber incase the barrel was chambered with a bit of runout. This improves your groups. But as you know, the little things count. Good luck, I hope I was of some assistance.
Semper Fidelis!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 01:05:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.3)

Sta8shot,

I have some loads for the 8x57 but I will need to refer to my logbooks for them. Did you know that Sierra makes a 200gr 8mm HPBT Match King? Yup! They are not for sale in the U.S. but if you go to their plant you can buy seconds by the pound! I plan on doing a road trip when it's financially feasable. I will post some loads for you when I dig out my log book for my mint DOU '43.
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma

Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 01:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.3)

Hey, a couple of weeks ago someone was looking for a source for theatrical blank crimping dies. It took a bit, but they are available fro C-H Tool and Die. The link is below on my name to the blank dies page. No load data is available. Hope this helps someone start making blanks for stalking compitition.

Roger 90 OMMS
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, Florida, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 01:30:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.176.166)

Check out this action. Found it through a Palma site. It is called the "Millenium". More of a Benchrest/Palma action but the technology involved is very interesting. Flexible bedding?
Be sure to check out the photos.
I am computer illiterate so you'll have to put in manually:
www.mab.com.au/firearms/cg.htm
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 01:57:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.189)
Manny,

It is possible for a scope to appear to be in focus but actually be slightly out. If the target/objective is in focus but the reticle is out a little they are in different focal planes and your eye can't get them sharp at the same time hense the fuzzy wuzzy action.

Go through the scope focusing procedure exactly as put forth in your factory manual or follow this extract from the TRGT databook.

Adjust the reticle first!

? Look at a distant object and allow your eyes to become focused on it. Quickly look through the scope at the sky or a blank wall and check to see if the reticle is immediately sharp and crisp. If it is, then no further adjustment is needed. If your eye has to re-focus on the reticle then proceed.

? Grasp the eyepiece and back it away from the lock-ring.

? Turn the eyepiece several turns so as to move at least 1/8". It will take this much change to achieve any measurable effect on the focus.

? Repeat step one. If the image is better, continue to turn the eyepiece in the same direction. If it is worse, turn the eyepiece the other way and repeat steps 1-3 until the image of the reticle is sharp and crisp immediately upon looking into the scope. Do this several times, taking the focus past the point of focus to ensure you have the clearest setting. Then lock up the eyepiece by screwing the lock-ring back to the eyepiece.

After the reticle is focused make sure it is locked down and don't screw with it anymore. (Unless you change eyeballs, glasses prescriptions etc). The only thing that should be adjusted after this is the objective if it is adjustable.

Follow these directions and you should be okay.

Pat. I'm guessing that while your scope was at the factory they refocused the reticle to factory settings and that's why it worked better.

That FBI report is pretty interesting. I've said for a long time that the main thing to fear with this Y2K thing is the stupid people that freak out and cause shit to go bizerk. Fuckin racists.

Out here

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 02:08:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.172)

Lock and Load!

M1 Garand. Think about it.

Next military trivia. Why is the final step of inspection arms to drop the hammer?

Sit Rick! Sit! No fair...
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 02:26:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.172)

Pat, Gooch,
Thanks for the help!I'm going to try it out this weekend and see if I can straighten the problem out.Funny thing is I was going to call Leupold fist but something told me I should ask u guys first
Thanks again!

Manny <MBM74@prodigy.net>
NY, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 04:15:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.212.206.44)

Manny
If your scope is okay in the daylight and your problem is at night fire, there is nothing wrong with the scope.
Under low light conditions if you stare at one point long enough your night vision will fade out. Same thing with a scope. By looking away, blinking your eye, it will allow some time to recover and your vision will return.
Pat
I'm just procastinating. Gettin good at it too.

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UTAH, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 04:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

Pat L & Gooch,

Thanks!

Good posts on reticle sharpness.

I had heard that the human eye can only stay focused for a brief period of time with optics of any sort (like less than 60 seconds) then things become warm and fuzzy. Strains on the cornea & eye muscles?
Think it was in that Russian Dudeski, A A Yur'yev that wrote a exceptional book on Russian shooters and sports physiology called "Competitive Shooting" but I am probably wrong..........

A mind is a terrible thing to waste!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 05:07:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.181)

Sta8shot and Bad Karma,

The german "Frankonia Jagd" informs, that 200 gr Sierra Match Kings (8 mm S) can be purchased only by this company. I do not think that it is completly true, however you can contact them at the enclosed address.
The catalog price is 49 DEM/100 bullets (432,80 DEM/1000 Bullets)

FRANKONIA JAGD
97064 Wuerzburg
Germany

tel(ammo branch) +49 9302 2074
fax +49 9302 202 00

Andrzej
Andrzej <stopczynski@kredytbank.com.pl>
Warszawa, Poland - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 08:48:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.136.40.54)

Gooch: I finally did onto the FBI website. Some interesting reading for sure. I think that for most of the country, Jan. 01, 2000 will be just another day. Unfortunately, there may be some people out there planning terrorist acts to further their own ideas under cover of the Y2K "Bug".

Bravo: Yeah, the nut in Honolulu supposedly had 17 Guns in his "Arsenal". But he only used one of them to murder those 7 guys he worked with. As usual, the media places importance on the guns, and not the guy who did the killing. Just plain old lazy jounalism.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 10:23:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.61)

Gooch,
I know what your talking about and as I have aged I have had to make the adjustment on my scopes to keep the cross hairs nice and crisp. However this is not the problem with the M3s, when you shot a round and looked through the scope to see where you hit it would be blurry as if someone had turned the focus knob on you. So then when you turned the focus on the side it would clear up and you could see a sharp target paster again and after the next shot you would have to do it all over again and the focus was always in a different place each time you shot and refocused. My problem with it now is that when I turn the focus knob so my paster is sharp and clear at 100yds the cross hairs will dance with the movement of my eye. In other words I have a paralax problem. If I focus it so the cross hairs stay locked on target then the paster is on the blurry side once again as if the scope is out of focus. I have shot my 308 with the 4.5x14 and other rifles with different Leupolds on them and the M3s are the only ones that do it. The other scopes have a clear sharp picture of the paster and the cross hairs stay locked on target when my eye is "Moved" around. I have gave up trying to figure it out or get it corrected because its the same on both M3s that I have and they have both been back to Leupold one is better than the other but its still not right. I love them for the long range stuff like Wyoming but it was a real diadvantage in Nebraska at the Hornady shoot where I had to do some very precision shooting at small dots and hostage faces with bad guys just peeking out at 200yds. You can't hit what you can't see!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 14:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Hello Y'all,
Looking for some info on Springfield's O3-A4. This is the sniper version of the O3-A3. I was wondering what's the value of a good example. I found one that is in excellent condition with the original scope base. The bore is clean, parkerization is very very good, rifling is good. The barrel has all the right markings except a WWII date telling me that it wasn't a rework(?). The overall condition of this rifle is the best O3-A3 I've ever seen.
How much are the original scopes going for today?

Being an Army CatII marksman, I was thinking of adding it to my collection of militaria.

Any info will be appreciated.
Thanks all for this site.
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 15:06:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.186.125.23)

Opinions on 7.62 uppers for Colt or Bushmasters?

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 15:28:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Suppose this FBI thing is right and some collection of scum-bags does something big and horrible at the beginning of the election cycle. Further suppose that it is pinned on "a vast right-wing conspiracy".

Ask Trotsky's question: "Who benefits?"

One thing you can be sure of: It sure wouldn't be the right-wing.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 15:51:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.5)

Well; you spooked me out of the hide with that one Gooch!
Gettin damned hard to tell who the parnoid ones are isn't it?
Right Wing religious fanatics will be on the streets eatin babies and drinkin blood on Jan 1. God I can hardly wait......Y2 baby burgers!
And we're payin these guys. Sorry boys but that report is a real piece of work. I'm glad they don't think that great American Militia is gonna rise up and smite the evil bureaucrazy! A real comfort in my hand wringin exercise arobics these days! Everybody is too busy countin their money to participate in that Block party!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 17:53:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
JIM LEMAY,Rae Herig, Where the heck are you Guys, Give me a call. I had some bad luck with my 'puter and lost all of my phone no.#s and e-mail addresses.

850-872-1212

Greetings Scott.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City , FL, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 21:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.51.81.42)

FBI Terrorist warning?
Either I'm paranoid or the FBI just looking for a good excuse.

Utgardaloki
Somewhere in the Land of Lincoln

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 22:15:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Been working too much (whine,,whimper), haven't taken the time to check the Roster much. Got a few minutes here, and it kinda feels like coming home to me... good to "hear" the familiar voices.

Gooch:
Great description on the reticle focus. I've had to re-do mine a time or two as my lateral rectus muscles just ain't what they useta be. Not to mention loss of lens flexability. What really sucks is to discover difficulty focusing on the front site post on my .45.

Can't see the Kimber, PeteR, what's I g'wan do?

Pat,

Read some of the posts re: the 6.5/284. Do you think a long action would be a good one for building a 6.5/284? I've been holding an M70 CRF action (originally a 280 REM featherweight) and a stock from HS. Don't have a barrel as of yet. The idea of a repeater 6.5/284 has appeal.

Shot in my first night match last Sept. The old saying, "You can't hit what you can't see" has new meaning. Great fun, however.

Opps, back to work...

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 23:23:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

I am new to using scope target turrets to adjust for range so I am asking for a little help in understanding how this works. I know you guys know what your doing, so I am asking the best there is.

Lets say that I have a scope that has 1" adjustment per click at 100 yards. So would one click change the point of impact 2 inches at 200 yards, and so on?

Using the same scope, and a bullet drop of 60 inches at 600 yards, I would need to click up only 10 clicks. Is this right, or am I missing it completely?

Brian

Brian <heiterman@qnet.com>
here, there, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 23:42:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.221.218.207)

Well I get my PSS-308 next week! can't wait!!!!! ect ect ect!!!!!!
I want to find info on small torque wrenches that will give me inch
pounds for the bolt's that mount the action and for the ring's for
the scope.From what I've seen here 65 inch lbs is the way to go for the stock and I want to go with MK4 rings 30MM what torque rateing
should I use for them? also is it really necessary to lapp the rings.
Can I use my cat's tounge for that :~) I have a ADL Remington 308 I have a Technicarbon stock is 65 inch LBS to much for this stock or
should I go for a lower torque on the stock and work my way up? last
question the phone number for Technicarbon Dynamics 352-860-1737
wont work are they still around? All of you guys that have helped me out with my questions a GREAT!!!!!
Scott Hannah
hannah@slip.net

Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net>
Los Gatos , commiefornia, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 01:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.118)

I'll bite, Sir Gooch.
That final hammer drop gives you the golden opportunity to scare the hell out of all and sundry when the meathead in the rear rank finds out he had a suprise left in the weapon after all.

Brian: Yes, you hhave it right. A minute of angle (MOA) is approx. 10" @ 1000 yds, and 1" @ 100 yds. Simple math. And the basis for most corrections in shooting.
Ed <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
Ft. Drum, NY, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 01:20:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.154.15.69)

Mr Gooch,

"Lock and Load" certainly applies to the M1 Garand, as the bolt has to be locked open in order to load it. And smash the hell out of your thumb in the process!

Why is the last step in inspection arms to drop the hammer? I dunno unless it is to leave the hammer forward on an empty chamber.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 02:07:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.184)

Scott,

Try this instead of torque wrench. Take the weight of the rifle and divide it into the desired torque value, 65 in/lbs divided by 12 lbs equals 5.4 in. This means using gravity to supply a constant calibrated force on a wrench at parallel to the ground and held 5.4 inchs from the end will appply 65 in/lbs of force. With the proper place marked on the wrench the proper torque will always be applied. Hope I have gotten the math right. This avoids the calibration and usage problems covered previously under the Air Force litany of torque wrenchs. Cheaper to.

Roger 90th OMMS
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, Florida, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 02:12:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.130.27)

It's been a really long time since I first learned to perform inpection arms, and I can't remember anyone ever explaining why the hammer is dropped upon completion. I'd hazard a guess that since the purpose of inspection arms is to check the functionality of the piece, dropping the hammer serves to let the inspector know that the firing mechanism works.
Another Pat <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 02:45:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)
Well, 20 yrs in the Corps and I have to make an educated guess. Sucks. Ah well, into the breach... Hammer is dropped in order to ensure that the hammer spring does not take a set and to make the make certain the weapon is truly safe. (And no, you won't be dropping a hammer on a live round, you and the inspecting officer have already visually checked the chamber. And the weapon won't be pointing at the head of the troop on your left if it's an even half-assed properly done movement.)

Spud, Out
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 03:34:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

I asked a DI at PI why we dropped the hammer on inspection arms and he replied, "To make sure there is no round in the chamber" Agh!!

As far as I can tell it is to ease the tension on the hammer spring prior to storage. Plus it makes for a neat sound when an entire platoon drops the hammer at once during a parade.

See ya'll.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 03:40:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.138)

Scott Hannah:

I just received my second set of Mk IV rings from Premier Reticles and the word is (in the published brochure) to use 65 in. lbs on the cross-bolts. The ring screws can be seated to 20 in. lbs with a light coat of oilon the threads. I have a Craftsman adjustable torque wrench in in./lbs that goes from 25 to whatever and I torque the ring screws at 25in/lbs. According to Premiers' literature the ring screws will take 50+ in/lbs. I broke down and bought one of their fixed torque-value T-handle wrenches and it is the cat's ass. Fine quality (SEECONK) with the date of calibration attatched. The rep from Premier assured me that I could also disassemble with this wrench and he is right. It definitely fits in the pack better than the Craftsman.
Sorry, I can't help you on the stock and action screws. No experience with that.
I found that you may want to attatch and detatch your MkIVs to the base (once all is assembled) a few times. They like to "settle" in I think. (And no' I,m not using aluminum bases, It's a Brookfield). Take care and hold hard!
Semper-fi!

Spud, OUT!
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, k-fornia, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 03:56:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

Lock and Load...Of course you are correct on the Garand. Lock the bolt back and load your clip. The m-14... The bolt was already locked back, weapon on safe, so upon the command, you loaded the appropriately-filled magazine, (1 or 5-round, depending on the stage),
let the bolt go home...etc. The Matty-Mattel... Same routine. Probably tradition plus a way to ensure a way to maintain safety "BY THE NUMBERS" on the range.

(GEE GUNNER, What do I win?)

Yeah, right.
Take care, and it's good to hear you again, Gunner.
Semper-Fi!
Top,
Out

dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, k-fornicate, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 04:23:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.162)

Oh, and if you screwed the pooch and didn't get the bolt release squarely hit, you'd better hope and pray a DI doesn't catch you faking the trigger squeeze, and don't slam the butt as you return it to the deck, or you'll be screwed when the bolt DOES slam home... trust me, I know, I learned the hard way... ;-)

L8R, all......

Leslie
Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 04:36:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.91.22)

Can anyone tell me where I might find a long sunshade for my Tasco SS10X42 ? I would like to extend the shade, but don't want to mickey-mouse it. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Archer <archer@zekes.com>
Thatcher`, AZ, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 04:48:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.17.47.172)
Bolt,
I guess you are talking about the 7.62x39 uppers for the AR's. I bought a Colt AR in 7.62x39. I thought it would be pretty cool to have something different. It was a cool rifle and it shot good, functioned flawless, and had light recoil. The downside was the availability of good quality mags. USA made most of the available Hi-cap mags and they looked like crap. They looked like a 20 rd colt .223 mag cut in half and welded to the bottom of an AK mag. They functioned OK though. The hunt for accesories sucked and I traded the upper for an M4 upper. If you already have a .223 AR it might be a cool idea to buy a 7.62x39 upper so that you could use allternate cheap ammo.
John
John <cuzbone1@aol.com>
Selma, nc, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 05:09:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.178)
Jeff A,
Welocme back stranger!! Yes I am looking at going to the 6.5x284, I need to keep up with the competition. The Winchester action would work great for that round. I am going to build mine on the long action. Sometimes I almost wish my 260 was on the long action with the long bullets. A couple of guys I shoot with are fans of the "BIG" bores and are really touting the 300ultra now that they can push a 220gr MK to 3000fps. They make fun of my mouse guns so I ran the ballistics on the computer to show them that the 6.5x284 with the Berger 140VLD doing 3100fps will fly better and shoot flatter than their ultra mag and with a lot less punishment and powder(HA) Of course they still don't believe me.

Pat L,
Another long lost stranger, how have you been?? Did you make it back to the Carlos shoot?? Jack said to tell you and Scully "HI" for him if I talked to you so "HI"!! Is Scully still with the Marines or did he fall to the temptations of civilian money(HA)?? The weather has been really nice here lately so I have been trying to ring out my new 308 so I can load this winter. Hows the M-40 doing?? Are you still shooting the 175s or did you go back to the 168s??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 14:19:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

LeMay,

Dude, I got the group picture from The Carlos Match today.

Most excellant!

Gnarly!

TOTALLY AWESOME!

Whoa Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude.......!

:-)

Thanks!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 16:53:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.82)

Jeff A.

Welcome back we missed ya!

Ashley offers the express sights with a BIG front dot & Vee rear for the Kimber dovetails. Brownell's has them listed in catalog #52 p. 249 plain and tritium filled.

When I get as old, palsied, and feeble eyed as Depity Dave and Al O.(who is a "SIG boy" in addition to his "other" transgressions EEE-yew) a set will go on my Custom Classic. HA!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 17:21:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.82)

peteR,

You do like living on the edge don't you?

The rest of you... Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Checking my zero and getting ready for an operation in, Deceptively Quiet, West Virginia, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 18:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.120)

DEPITY,

Call me next trip to ERJ, I heard they serve Geritol now at Outback, so no more Shoney's

Stay Safe on your side of the mountain....

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 19:09:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.56)

PeteR stop yer damn teasing us!

We all want to see your group s*x pi... I mean the groop shooting picture you are speaking of. In fact I'd love to see *any* pics from this last Carlos shoot.. anyone posted any? All I have seen is text.
Mike brought me back a T-shirt from the match, he gave it to me yesterday when we went shooting. Sounds like you folks all had a great time... Sure hope you make this a yearly deal.

Speaking of said day at the range, I am really pleased with what
Jerry Rice did to my Winchester Model 70. Mike had me on my belly pointing uphill at 200 yards and when I did my part the rifle did a phenomenal job... My best group of the day at 200 made a 4 shot hole resembling a 3 leafed flower. I'm very happy. Thanks Jerry!

Ken - Any new word on the server?

And finally to Gooch - thanks for posting that Y2K FBI link. I don't think I have seen 'right wing' 'christian' and 'violence' used so many times in such an easily debated yet official document. Much of it's assertions appear to me to draw guilt by association. Not good.

I did find one assertion QUITE interesting and QUITE worth thinking about. According to this document the US Government knows and believes that more gun control laws actually CAUSE more paranoia and potential for social *ahem* misbehavior in the populace. It also noted that many militias are REacticve and dont pose a threat unless the government starts taking away rights. Yet knowing this the congress continues to pass more and more restrictive laws. A paranoid person (or do we call them realists now) might just be able to make a case that when the congress passes such laws they know in advance it will have the potential to cause violence... both in the militias and in the general populace. This violence which they themselves expected would make it very easy to then justify much more massive and draconian measures and usurpation of even more freedoms if they ever desired to do so now wouldn't it? So what IS their true motive in the face of the fact that GC has proven a dismal failure everywhere it has been tried? Food for thought.

Speaking only for myself as always,
JT - Webmaster for lord knows who <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 19:27:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

On making a scope vertical:

Thanks to those of you who mailed me and posted here about how to make sure that a scope was correctly mounted so as to make sure the darn thing lined up perfectly vertial.

One of the nicer responses I got in email was from kenya who I asked for permission to post here. He said yes, so here is yet another way.

JT

-begin included message reprinted with permission-

The best single device for level scope mounting are
several. For cross slot picatinny rail bases like
Badger Ordnance, D.D. Ross or AR flat tops, brownells
sells a great clip-on bubble level to level the
rifles action. For others, try the Scoplevel device.
After lapping your rings and with the action level
using the level bubble align the vertical reticle to a
thin plumb line set out @50 yards. Mildly tighten the
ring screws. Keeping the rifle still, check to see
that your vertical tracking maintains on the plumb
line as you adjust your elevation turret. A
collimator grid works much better. If close, tighten
all screws secure. After zeroing your rifle at 100
yards, and now while at the range (100 yards) get a
large (tall) target backer and draw a 1 MOA aiming
point and draw a 45 inch vertical line (use a
carpenters level) extending from and above the aiming
point. Dial your elevation turret up @40moa (for a
1000 yard 308WIN come-up) and shoot while aiming at
the 1 moa aim point at the bottom of the target. If
your group is still centered on the vertical line,
your done 'cuz your scope tracks vertically. If your
groups center is off line more than half moa (in no
wind), loosen your scope and rotate it to bring your
group on the line and retighten, repeat shooting
process rechecking your 100 yard zero after rotation.
This is a simplified route. Use an MWG scope level
bubble for long range consistent shooting. I assemble
long range tactical rifles and compete to 1000 yards.
This method assures your scope is tracking vertically
mechanically, which is more important than your
reticle being level when shooting multiple distance
engagements from muzzle to 1000 yards. Trust me
reticles can vary visually verses mechanically
tracking.

Good Shooting,
Kenya

-end included message-
JT - just JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 20:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

So...What do we do about it, JT? The politians are all the same. It doesn't do any good to elect different ones. Maybe we'll get lucky and they realize that if they do something really drastic and upsetting they might be a target of a militia. That fear ought to make them have second thoughts. I know I wouldn't want to turn a bunch of honest, hard-working middle class citizens that have very strong moral convictions against me, as opposed to the upper-class folks that paid for my campaign.....or would I?

Paul M.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
in, Alabama, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 20:52:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.107.24.117)

John McCain is not the same as Bill Clinton.
Bob Barr is not the same as John Conyers.

To refuse to differentiate between degrees of evil makes one evil's servant.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 21:25:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.16)

I just purchased an AR-10t and would like to use it for varmint shooting since it can hold a 1/2 MOA i thought it would be fun to try out in place of my 22-250 the problem is i do not know a light, explosive load for the 308. does anyone know how a 110 grain bullet will handle in the AR-10t and does anyone have a good load for this bullet or the 125 grain bullet. also has anyone used the saboted 224 cal bullets if so how well do they work. thank you in advance for any help you can give me.

mike
mike <diver@rt66.com>
alb, nm, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 21:50:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.79.116)

"LOCK AND LOAD"---- Damn! I always thought it meant to engage the safety before you loaded the weapon.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 22:52:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.151)
What has happened to Sgt Cox's pictures of the new fashion gillie suit? Am chomping at the bit to get started on one.

Joining new range tomorrow. Finally get a 200 meter range close to home. 12 covered rifle benches, covered pistol benches, good range!

A bud now wants me to get into BR50. More $. 541T to start with?

Keep your heads down, 50 some days to go until the world ends. LOL

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 00:55:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.43.204)

CDC, I think what Paul M was speaking of wasn't a difference of morals, but a difference of outcome actions. Myself, I voted for the first Republican (in national elections) since Reagan last time (Dole). It hurt me to do it too. Not that I don't like Republicans (but I do find most all spineless), but I would NEVER vote Democrat (by the way, I ALWAYS vote, even local!) but the outcome difference is next to none. Remember what kind of illegal civilian disarmament we saw under Gorge Bush? I sure do! His son has declared his support of those (current) laws also. Part of my voting last election was the thought that my senators and congressman would understand I put them in there so that they could "undo" the illegal (and the supreme court already decided against this one*) laws such as the "it's a crime" bill. Didn't do it. Vote Republican? More restrictions. Vote Democrat? More restrictions, just faster. Unfortunately, the only people I vote for (since Reagan) all lose. Does that mean I should vote democrat this time? ;-)

YOU ALL DO WRITE A 60 SECOND LETTER TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATORS EVERY MONTH OR SO DON'T YOU? If not, place a lovely weapon in the "collection box" at your local police station.

* The supreme court determined that the only arms guarenteed by the 2nd amendment are those of military nature, whatever would be in the US military arsenal at the time. Kind of blows a BIG hole in the "sporting purpose" arguement, doesn't it? Banned AR-15's? Yeah, right. Guess those M-24 / 40 weapons are guarenteed, as well as my M1A :-)

Best quote to date from Pat Buchanan: "I want the US out of the UN, and the UN out of the US!"

Sign me up as a happy-go-lucky future felon, assuming that not turning in my weapon (as in the California law) will make me a felon, and active "you want it, come and get it" anti-illegal disarmament type.
Sorry about the US centric message, but this one got me going. Remember the talk about passing a constitutional amendment to allow Reagan another term? Guess it could be worse, we could have clit-ton in office for another 8! HA! Better have another beer, I'm gettin' hot under the collar.......
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The land of the free, home of the brave! Cedar City, Utah, USA, Where the constitution still counts for something other than toilet paper! - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 01:13:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.168)

I'm with Doc on the Lock-and-Load issue, I've always thought it meant to "Lock" the safety before "Load"ing the weapon.

Must be a Missouri thing.
PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 02:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.184)

As I was playing with my M1A and thinking about lock&load I was automatically applying the safety thruout the drill. I guess my brain is truly old and inflexible to allow me to overlook the obvious.
Been a while,
Spud
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, Ca, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 03:29:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.33)
Bravo,

What to do? Grind out first-downs, one at a time. There's no easy way.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 04:18:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.16)

I am looking to get in to long range shootingn rifle. I want to get a good rifle, but unsure as to which rifle to buy. I am thinking about the Marine Corps sniper rifle (M40a1). I was wondering if anyone out there has one or has any information about them? Please sent me any information you have that may help. Thank you for your time.
J Lewis <JLewis1549@aol.com>
San Clemente, CA, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 04:23:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.37)
Hi Lads,

Just got my TRG-41, make's the ideal mate for the 21 I have already,at the same time brought a Sako Silencer for the TRG-21, it's Alloy and nice and light and only cost $100USD.
The .338LM gun will not be ready to shoot for a month or so,good thing's are worth waiting for.The main modification,is threading of the muzzle for a large telescoping supppressor.
The TRG-41 is a just a lengthened version of the TRG-21, and every bit as smooth in operation.

Just a note for those looking for a good bipod,you could do a lot worse than the TRG bipod,similar to PH type but much lighter and cheaper.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 08:31:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.174)

Has anyone used a StealthBag? Eariler discussions on the Duty Roster about being detected by Airborne FLIR, and how hard it was to evade it. This might be the solution. Weighing less than a poncho. website: www.stealthbag.com
Jim
James Barko <g2rk73mx@gateway.net>
Calumet City, IL, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 16:03:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.22.148.183)
I know this is not a political forum, but in response to the many posts about gun control, politicians, etc., of late, I gotta respond.

Clinton is not to blame for gun control. Gov. Davis is not to blame for the facist rules now sweeping California. Reno is not to blame for the runaway train that is what was once crimminal investigative arms of this government. Who is then? We are. You and I, and our friends, and their friends and their friends. You don't like your persent day rulers? Get off your ass, unite, and throw them the hell out.

If the Constitution means what is written, as I believe it does, then having thoughts of gun control, thoughts of vanquishing strong search and seizure prohibitions, thoughts of limiting or "reforming" the 7th Amendment, etc., are all acceptable. It is only in the absence of well reasoned thought, and hard work, that these weeds go to seed and soon choke out the cash crop. In my opinion, the speech you most dislike, is the speech you must fight hardest to allow...for as soon as we limit what *we* don't like, a slight shift in power will occur and they will limit what we like.

Gun owners, myself included, are one of the laziest batches of the population when it comes to working to keep what the Constitution *gave* us. Perhaps, like with most other entitlement programs, being entitled has led to apathy. Doesn't matter whether you are democrat or republican, both parties have allowed things to happen to the constitution that should cause us all to hang our heads in shame.

A month or so ago there was a "march" or assembly of gun owners in DC. Through what may have been poor organization, the date was moved a few times...which may have led many, such as this one, to be unable to go. Guess how many activists showed? 75. Not 75,000, or 700,075, 75. One soccer mom with a cell phone is a larger threat to the security of a toy store with a beanie baby table than we are to the groups that are shitting on our Constitution. Oh well, let's get another six pack underway...gotta go shine the NRA bumper sticker on the Ford today.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 16:36:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Bruce sir, you hit the nail on the head!!!!

Recall the last election shortly after the Clintonista's enacted the Brady law and other totally UNconstitutional restrictions on the 2nd amendment to the sacred document our founding fathers created for us?

Well, with some well spent funding from the NRA to various pro-gun politicians and their PAC's, along with a rally by the rank and file
gun owning population in the country....... we sent Mr. Clinton and crew a message he'll never forget, and elected a Republican House and Senate. The democrats paid dearly for their attacks on gun owners once, and it was the turn out at the polls by normal gun owners with
shotguns, handguns, assault rifles, precision weapons, and smoke poles that made the difference.

Can we do it again? If it is to be, it is up to each and every guy you know that appreciates the shooting sports, personal protection, and the freedom that comes from our ability to resist and overthrow a tyrannical government run amuck.

Watch 6
MAXX
MAXX <gunrunner08@hotmail.com>
Near Blue Eye, AR, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 17:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.180.118.97)

Hello out there. I am new to the sniper community. I am a U.S. army Ranger stationed at FT. Lewis WA. I have done some sniper shooting and am really interested in doing more. My goal is to be a snipr for the government or local law enforcement. I am cherry when it comes to really precision shooting for I am a machine gunner. Any iformation will be greatly appretiated. As I have said I'm cherry at this but I have started to put togather my rifle and hope to be shooting soon. I don't really know what to say or where to start so I need a liitle heip. Thanks.

Jason

Jason Nixon <jnixx21@yahoo.com>
Federal Way, WA, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 21:47:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.13.51.251)

Maxx...get a grip !! This Congress hasn't done a thing for gun owners, course they haven't done much of anything, just taken our money and bitched...NO reppeals, NO revisions..just alot of hot air !! IMHO Pres. Bush lost because he lied to the gunowning public and went ahead and signed the "magazine"bill. All this anti-gun crap goes back to 1934 IF NOT earlier !!! I'm tired of Republicans who do NOTHING, DemoRats who want to take away what I've got and the list goes on. Some of the same Senators and Representatives have been in office for over 16 yrs. Talk about stagnation !!

As for the gun community, if it doesn't bother what "Flavor" you like it doesn't concern you, thats the way I see it from many a visit to different gunshops. One dedicated dove hunter(shotguns..Lots of high dollar shotguns) was overherad to proclaim, "Who needs more than THREE rounds??!!" For that matter, he went on..."those Army guns should stay in the army and not be on the streets"...When I asked him where it said who was allowed to only own 3 round guns, he called me a "whippersnapper" (I'm 45 !!) and that I didn't have much manners !! I may be a Life Member of the NRA but lately I have given more to GOA and JFTPGO( Jews for the preservation of gun ownership)... enough of this soapbox.. Whats better for 600 yds...168 or 175 ???
OUT HERE

Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
You oughta know, by now, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 03:00:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.149.60)

I watch the 6.5 debate vs. whatever with great interest. I've shot the 6.5 x55 for years out of a tight necked Sako action Shilen and 12x Leupold. First thing the 55 has over the .260 is Lapua brass( Norma is almost as good and both are light years ahead of anything made here) Secondly guys is Lapua Bullets- the 139 Scenars..Sierra copied the ogive ( which is why there was initially 140 gr and now 142 gr.) The initial attempt didnt have a competitive BC. On the comparator the Lapua's are by far superior in uniformity. I have played recently with the Lapua 107 gr Scenars. BC is listed at .510. A quick check of the ballistics program state that the 107 at approx 3250 fps have far less drop and carry the same windaged out to 550 yards as does the 139.... They carry more terminal horsepower as well out to about 550yards than the 139. . Outstanding accuracy. It prints about 1 1/2 " at 300 meters. I too have tortured myself with how to "improve" my cold bore chances. The short action .260 has a far better selection of aftermarket stock availability but it doesnt have the quality brass yet....Dont sell the 6.5x55 short over the .260. At 425 yards the coyotes cant tell the difference and the long case neck may just prolong barrel life.. Next step in the evolution... a 6 Norma BR, Lilja barrel, Lapua Brass, VLD.s ....any advice?
Spicer200 <Spicer200@hotmail.com>
Dryden, Ontaeio, Canada - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 03:44:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.211.83.92)
I have a rifle in need of refinishing, but I want to refinish it myself in Desert Tan with something significantly better than Krylon. Does anyone know who has the stuff to do it with? The Brownell's catalog doesn't list anything.

Thanks,

Scott
Scojo <lighthouseltd@juno.com>
I don't know where I am, AZ, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 07:08:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.172.5)

I would like to learn more about competitive shooting. I like to shoot rifles and pistols. I had some firearms training in the military, and I have had firearms training as a reserve deputy sheriff. I have been shooting for many years and I like to reload precision rifle ammo. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!!! --- Spot
spot <the_spot1@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 12:12:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.167.88)

Apologize for the length, but the subject is about the most important issue we need to deal with, if we don't want to lose our evil "high power scoped sniperkiller rifles that shoot military bullets"...

OK Will, I'll try to respond....

1. This Congress hasn't done a thing for gun owners, course they haven't done much of anything, just taken our money and bitched...NO reppeals, NO revisions..just alot of hot air !!

Q: If the existing Congress had managed the votes with a slim majority
to revise any of Clinton's gun laws, Clinton would have veto'd said
legislation as soon as it hit his desk. To make any progress, we all
have to work together to elect a Republican Pres. and keep control of the legislature.

2. IMHO Pres. Bush lost because he lied to the gunowning public and went ahead and signed the "magazine"bill.

Q: Odd, I can't recall a single gun owner I know that chose to vote for Clinton over Bush for his screwing us on the mag. bill. Give me any Bush over a Clinton. Actually, the reason stated for his loss (by about every politically astute consultant and analyst in the country on both sides of the fence) WAS clearly due to his crawfishing and backsliding on his read my lips promise to not raise taxes. I'm with you on the fact that he was a bit of a gutless wimp for signing the anti-gun laws he enacted, but how long are we gonna beat a dead horse? The worst Republican on the ticket in 2000 will not be nearly as big a threat to us as gun owners as any liberal puke socialist / nanny state democrat.

3. All this anti-gun crap goes back to 1934 IF NOT earlier !!! I'm tired of Republicans who do NOTHING, DemoRats who want to take away what I've got and the list goes on. Some of the same Senators and Representatives have been in office for over 16 yrs. Talk about stagnation !!

Q: Blame the gangsters and a few FBI administrators hungry for some press for the NFA act of 1934 that tried to end private ownership of Full Auto and Short Barreled Shotguns by the imposition of the $200
Treasury Dept. Tax on every single transfer. ( In those day's this tax amount was about twice the price of a good Thompson, and the plan was intended to price FA "gangster" gun's out of the market.) These
day's the same $200 transfer still applies.) Old geezers that have hung around the House and Senate so long they have become part of the corrupt system need to go, and again, our vote is the way to do it.

4. As for the gun community, if it doesn't bother what "Flavor" you like it doesn't concern you, thats the way I see it from many a visit to different gunshops. One dedicated dove hunter(shotguns..Lots of high dollar shotguns) was overherad to proclaim, "Who needs more than
THREE rounds??!!" For that matter, he went on..."those Army guns should stay in the army and not be on the streets"...When I asked him where it said who was allowed to only own 3 round guns, he called me a "whippersnapper" (I'm 45 !!) and that I didn't have much manners !!

Q: Again Will, you've hit on the key to our electing a full slate of Republicans..... It would have been great if you had taken the time and energy to explain to the old phart dumass dove hunter that the 2nd
amendment ain't about hunting. It's about keeping the gov.org in line
if a tyrant tries to declare martial law to stay in power.

I actually think that most Americans, young and old alike have been fed so much media propoganda demonizing guns and making folks that still understand the REAL intent of the 2nd amendment look like a bunch of fools........ that most of us lack the guts and grit to step up and speak the truth. Gun rights ain't about hunting. Hell, we'd hate to look like unsophisticated backwoods hillbillies for speaking
the truth.The liberals and their media have almost won this one, Will.

5. I may be a Life Member of the NRA but lately I have given more to GOA and JFTPGO( Jews for the preservation of gun ownership)... enough of this soapbox..

Q: Agreed again, don't cut the NRA funds off because of some of their
dumass moves here lately, they are the only group on our side with the
clout and cash to influence the corrupt process. I like the policy's of both the GOA and the JFPO better than the NRA's, but when was the last time you heard Clinton or Schumer bitch about the influence these
groups had on lawmakers? Give them all a few bucks.

Whats better for 600 yds...168 or 175 ???

I like 168's, but I resist changing anything that is working OK.

Enjoyed your post and the Soapbox is Closed.

Watch 6
MAXX

MAXX <gunrunner08@hotmail.com>
Near Blue Eye, AR, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 12:24:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.180.118.28)

FIRST IS WAS FREAKING MATH, NOW BACK TO BITCHING ABOUT POLITICIANS

WAAAA! WAAA! WAAAA!

On a more possitive note, a few select images from the Carlos Match at Storm Mountain have survived a trip through the services of the US Postal Service, been digitally excited (nope not that you toe fetish folks), and the sent at warp speed to a Cyber-space port half way around the world, and then slowly journied to this website.

It is my understanding that should Scott Powers return from a month long trip to Barbados, Bali-Bali, Bora-Bora, Wherever, other images (I took four rolls of pix at the match) should appear in the photos section........

Sorry for the delay, and I hope you like them.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 13:04:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.174)

Scojo ...
Brownells catalog has "Teflon" finishes in black, brown, OD, green, gray, and tan. The stuff is indestructable, and rustproofs the surface that it covers.

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 13:38:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)

OK, we have GOT to fix the speed of the Roster. How much would it cost? Can we take up a collection? AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 14:29:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.224)

I would be more than happy to contribute to a new server if that would speed things up! I have DSL and it is fantastic except for Sniper Country" web site that just crawls!
Thanks,
Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 15:16:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)
Last word on politics.

Maxx: It is not a democrat or republican problem. In fact, the ban on "foreign" made assault weapons by Bush was one of the most aggressive gun control laws, ever. Clinton has tried to match it, but so far no luck.

Peter: The Aussies thought it was funny too, at first.

That's it on the political front for me.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 17:13:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

168's vs. 200's

I've got a .300 win mag that I've been working up loads for for some time now. It's a mod 70 LRH with a really long throat & it's really finiky about what it will shoot. Because of the long throat I've been working with 200 SMK's, however I've just had my other .300 rebarreled and provided the smith with unprimed cartridges for cutting the throat. That brings me to my question. In running various load combinations through my ballistics program, I've discovered that the 168's at 3200 fps shoot considerably flatter to 1000 yards than the 200's at 2800 fps (266 inches of drop vs. 317 inches of drop) with the 200's having a slight edge in wind drift (6 inches at 1000 yds in a 10 mph cross wind). I've always heard and have come to believe that the heavier bullets would perform better at the longer ranges. Have I been wrong. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Pat T.
Pat T <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 18:42:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

I would like some information on IOR-Valdada(?) Scopes, especially the funky little 4x power with BDC and ilumanated reticle. I am looking for a Scope to go on a CAR-15 Flatop. I do not want more than a 6X as this will be a 300 yard and under Carbine (What some call a Perimeter Rifle). I am also considering the Leupold&Stevens 6x Tactical, and Tasco 6X Tactical - but I have never seen these eithier. But, at least I know something of the companies reputations. I know this is a little off the subject of Precision Long Range Tactical Rifles, but I could not think some of a better group to ask. Thank You.
Rockie Gilley <rgilley@br-inc.com>
USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 21:45:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.86.84.34)
To- Heikki
Torf
Engvoll

I don't know if all of you are professionals...
What do you guys do in cold weather?
I plan to do some trigger time this winter with my Savage 10fp and happened to wonder if you guys install larger “winter“ trigger guards on your rifles.

I know enough about conditions on the “Ostfront” in Russia and Finland during WWII to realize that combat doesn’t stop because of cold weather.
Any comments?

Gooch-

I’ve only seen photos of modern U.S. sniper rifles.
How much room is available for a gloved trigger finger?

To all-
Anyone care to speculate on the chances of a news media frenzy on Y2K next month?
Much more frequent coverage on terrorism, food shortages, power black outs, etc…
I can’t believe the networks will let the century slip quietly away without causing at least SOME panic among the great unwashed.
Too tempting.

Utgardaloki
Somewhere on a T1 in the mis-guided midwest.

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 23:25:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Ed G (Gunner 06) at Fort Bragg called me and said the TNT Medal of Honor show tonight (8PM, 7 NOV 99) will showcase the story of Gary gordon and Randall Shughart in the October 93 Mogadishu gunfight.

Rocky, a good choice for a "Spotter's Carbine" (M4/CAR-15) is either the MilSpec ACOG, or the Leupold 1.5-5X matte with mil-dots.

Jason, I hope you got my e-mail on getting started in long-range shooting and sniping in the Seattle/Tacoma Fort Lewis area. if you didn't, let me know.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 23:46:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Rockie Gilley...

I have the Leupold 6x tactical w/mildot, and it's a nice scope, but I wouldn't get it again... it was really designed for "Hunter class" benchrest, which is limited to 6x. If your range is out to 300 yards, then mildots are a bit of over kill (not to mention they add $80 to $120 to the price. Any modern rifle cartridge can handle that without "milling"

I went to the I.O.R. web site, and couldn't find the "funky little 4x with the illuminated reticle".

Would you let me know where you saw it, as I have need for a "funky little 4x with the illuminated reticle", to go on a .308 Galil ARM, that I just found an orignal scope mount for (thanks, Montereyjack!).

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 00:30:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.62)

Mr Liwanag: Thanks for the advice, I have used an ACOQ before but just did think about for this specfic application. And I didn't know Leupold make such a thing as a 1.5X5, I will check into this. Mr Pablito: I saw an add in the October 15th Issue of GUN LIST - I don't have it with me tonight so I am not certain of what page it was on. From memory I think it had a 24mm objective with a cover that attached to the scope body, the Scope was fatter in the area of the Turrets than in the Objective or Eye piece, hence to my Western Eyes, kind of "funky" Rockie
Rockie Gilley <Rgilley@br-inc.com>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 01:01:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.86.84.34)
Utgardaloki,

You might try polyprop liners under the fingerless gloves that have those little gripper dots on them. You can pull your fingers in the gloves then push your fingers out like a cat does it's claws. You can also ball up your fist to warm your finger-tips. When it's real cold you can wear loose mittens over this set-up. They slip off quick. This method has worked for me down to as cold as it gets in Idaho and Colorado. I have never been able control a trigger using regular gloves.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 01:19:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.25)

Scott

I have used the teflon finishes from Brownells and find that they work great. I first tried the standard non teflon finish and found that it was not very durable. The teflon stuff is well worth the extra money. I refinished a semi-auto Sig slide with it and have not had a problem. I also know of a guy that refinished a 7mm Winchester rifle and it also came out great. Give it a try. I found the stuff on Brownells web site.
C.R. Stoddard <stodddard@poncacity.net>
P.C., Okla., USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 01:23:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.76.245.109)

Site speed: Okay gang, I know youn'z are tired of the site slowness. There's been alot going on in the background. About a week ago, I decided that I didn't like the available options and said screw it and ordered my own T1 connection. We requested an escalated due date. The normal due date is 17 Nov, the escalated installation date will hopefully be friday (12 Nov). Now - if no phone company issues arise, and equipment to support this operation arrives (tuesday) - and is not DOA - then we might be back in hyper drive mode soon. Until then..... deal with it the best you can.

Ken

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 02:22:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.33)

On the question re: gloves and trigger guards and shit.

Most common solution is to wear nomex flight gloves under your cold weather gloves/mittens. When the need to take a shot comes up, take off the outer shell and leave the nomex on. This way your paw doesnt freeze up, ruining the shot. THe nomex gloves leave you with enough manual dexterity to feel the trigger and fit inside of all commercial trigger guards.

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 02:42:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.158)

Gloves-- Well, here's what I do for partridge hunting, maybe it'll work for some of youz in the rifle situation. The problem: carrying a scattergun in cold weather, keeping the hands and fingers warm, but also keeping the trigger finger "barenaked" so as to be able to A) get the safety of the Remington model 11 off without the glove causing a fumble, and B), get a good feel on the trigger. The solution: first, at the inside of the second joint of the trigger finger, make a cut in the glove so that the finger can poke through. The finger of the glove then becomes sorta like a hood that is not being worn. Second, in the middle of the palm of the opposite glove, make a small cut, perpendicular to the fingers, large enough to put the uncovered portion of your trigger finger into. I carry the shotgun with the right hand ( I'm right handed)grasping the wrist of the stock and ready to fire, while the left hand is supporting the gun under the receiver, just in front of the trigger guard. The trigger finger is more or less extended straight and stuck in the left glove's little slot. The shotgun is at a comfortable, more-or-less port arms position. Keeps all 10 of the little devils warm until the need arises to whip out ol' #1 to take a shot or pick a nose. I would think the same method might work for laying behind a scoped rifle for extended periods. Of course, the "hood" can always be put back on #1, too.

I shot some .308 Federal GM today, for the first time. I sprung for some just as a control measure, to shoot something that supposedly always shoots well. To compare to my handloads. Even though, being factory ammo, it would at best, maybe, shoot fairly decent compared to my carefully crafted masterpieces of munitions. How about, the best friggin' group yet with the rifle?! At 275 yards, paced and mil'd (40" plate made exactly 4 mils), five of the dang things into 1 1/4? I haven't been able to quite make that even with long-seated handloads. Federal's got to be cheating somehow....
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
XX, MI, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 04:34:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.146)

Leupold doesn't make the 1.5-5X w/mil-dots as a factory scope. Premier Reticle in Winchester, Virginia, takes an out-of-the-box matte Vari X-III and installs a mil-dot reticle. Nice sight. Crank down to 1.5 for in-the-woods, and out to 5X for across-the-fields. The mil-dots aren't for you, they're to help mil for the primary (7.62) gunner.

The 4x IOR-Valdoda looks like the Russian PSO-1 on the SVD/FPK.

For the cold-weather gunner, you might try a pair of Pearl Izumi Pittard Bicycling gloves. They copied the Nomex flight glove (in black, with spandex instead of Nomex) with a very thin layer of cold insulation. Wear these under GI trigger-finger mitten shells and you'll be comfortable enough in Korea or Northern Japan. When you take off the shells, the black really stands out against snow.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 05:13:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Winter action:

Bring good and warm clothes. 1) Use several layers instead of one thick layer. It keeps warm air better in and sweat and moisture can work their way out and leave the skin dry. Basically you need a good set of sporting/thermo underwear and maybe 1 or 2 thin layers of clothes and then you put the camo/snow white gear over all this. I usually use thinsulate jacket inside but this depends on the weather.

It might be usefull to sew inside the white overgarment some insulating mat (cheap insulating mat meant for using under you when sleeping in a sleeping bag). It insulates you from the ground, makes it more comfortable and prevents snow melting on to your stomach and groin areas. Of course a separate mat helps too, but these sewn-in pieces are allways with you.

Shooting hand: Allways use some kind of handshoes. Finnish Army issues nowadays a set of cotton handshoes (white) that are to be used when great "finger feel" is needed in cold climates. I am sure some fishing handshoes might be the ticket, but I am not aware of any real good ones. In any case you need thin handshoes and thicker mittens that are drawn over the thin ones, when not actually shooting. Shooting with bare hands becomes very fast impossible when temprature is very low and you risk even cold induced injuries to your hands very fast when themperature is -20 C or less.

I use myself a 3-piece system. First I have cotton/nylon knitted fingerless handshoes that are always on my hands. Then I put neopren fishing handshoes over these. Without the fingerless mittens inside these neopren handshoes become very cold, but with these thin knitted handshoes I have all the warmth I need. Neopren does not let water in, but usually these handshoes get punctured sooner or later, but it is no problem, they start then to function like wet-suits i.e. your hands are maybe a little wet, but they do stay warm. When skiing or doing something else, where "finger feel" is not needed I put large leather mittens over these. This is not optimal, but these leather mittens are white and insulate very well.

My system is not something official, but I have developed this system based on cost, availability and functionality. In the end my "system" is very big when I have everything on my hands, but I may still use a AK-47/Valmet M62 with no problems. One good idea is to have the mittens attached to your sleeves so that you can get them off in a hurry, but not lose them if you move from one place to another. In an ambush situation this works very good. If you can escape, then you still need your handshoes or you will lose your hands in the cold.

I think today a good system would be to buy some thin Thinsulate handshoes and a good leather of Gore-Tex mittens, that can be put over the handshoes.

Winter triggers: I do ot like them in a rifle, but a little bit larger trigger guard could be nice. One thing is sure, winter brings you new problems and some things that are possible in the summer are ot possbile in the winter. I.e. you can not wait for hours with your finger on the trigger motionless in winter no matter what clothes you have. Unless you sit inside a house or something. In our training we have realized that in winter a 3-man team is better than 2-man team. One man can go to a shelter where he can move a little bit and maybe eat or even cook something with a Trangia. This puts some restrictions on the sniper position.

There a lots of other little tricks that one learns only by doing but I hope these hints helped a little. BTW bring allways spare socks and even a spare underwear set. This way if you get too sweatty you can allways change to dry clothes.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 07:56:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

I am having trouble finding scope mounts for my Savage 10FP. I have found no one in my area the has mounts for the short action Savage. What would be a good brand and model number? Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks.
Wyatt <raven1@anv.net>
Sin City, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 09:15:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.168.182.61)
Gloves,

Cold hands are a real problem for me, I seriously burned my hands a few (20 or so) years ago and ever sence then cold weather has played hell with my hands. One of the disadvantages to working in law enforcement is the necessity to be out in the weather no matter how bad it gets. It seems that people don't change there attitudes and habits just because the weather is bad. Over the years I have tried several ideas that work, they include:

Wal-Mart sells a Thinsalate lined leather glove in both black and brown (It is called a "Shooting Glove" and can be found in the hunting supply section). It works quite well and fits with no problem inside my trigger guards. The only problem I have found is that on some gloves the fingers are too long, I try on all the sets they have in my size and buy several pair that fit.

Race drivers have used nomex driving gloves for years and thay have a leather palm and finger surface. These gloves are avaliable in a whole range of colors and are quite good for feel. Again, no problem getting them inside the trigger guard. These are some of the most flexable gloves I have ever worn and they transmit tactile information suprisingly well. They can be had in a whole series of layers some as light as flight gloves, some as heavy as guantlets but the guantlets will not work well as shooting gloves.

When I hunt I wear a silk glove liner under a set of mittens with a trap door that lets my fingers out. If the weather is not too cold I just wear the liners. They do not block the wind much but if it is still they do an amazing job of keeping my hands warm.

I also have some polypropalene (sp?) glove liners, they are heavier than the silk liners and work better as light gloves.

When it is really cold I have a set of leather, down filled, mittens. They don't work at all in a trigger guard but when it was 20 below and blowing 30 mph at the police academy the week that we had to qualify I wore them up until the time the range officer blue the whistle to start each stage. I had them tucked under my arms and just pulled my hands out of the mittens and let them fall to the ground My class mates all laughed at me when I walked to the line but several of them had ordered a set by the end of the week. They came from L.L.Bean.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Waking up with frost everywhere in , Chilly, West Virginia, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 13:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.114)

On the Cold Weather Note: Layers of clothing work best. When sitting for deer and other game in zero temps. for 8 - 10 hours, start with thin thinsalate type long johns and a thin silk sock. I use sweats and a heavier wool sock as a next layer, then I will use either wool or fleece GorTex outer wear (this deppends on if it is snowing or clear. The fleece will retain water, the wool wicks it away) and an insulated water proof boot. (My preference is Cabela's mountain boot). For gloves I have found neoprene felt lined gloves to work best and then I keep my hands inside an outer hand muff until it is time to take a shot. For a face mask I have found an acrylic type with just eye holes to work best. (the ones with mouth and nose covers tend to frost up from condensation to easily and also tend to fog optics when observing for long periods.) With this setup as temp rises you can remove layers easily and also leave a layer off while moving around. It also makes dragging that 160 lb deer out of the woods a lot easier. As a backup I always carry a couple of those chemical heats packs in my pack. They really work great if needed.
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 14:00:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)
On the topic of shooting gloves, I bought a pair of gloves made from a very, very thing piece of neoprene...the manufacturer is Hatch. I have used virtually every other glove on the market to keep warm, especially on fire scenes in the winter, where you get good and wet. The hatch gloves are great, really warm, even when wet, extremely good tactile feel and you can pull a pair of mittens over them to stay extra worm when just sitting around. I think I paid around $20 US for them at a police uniform shop.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 15:33:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)
When I lived in Alaska, I wore a pair of the gauntlet type "Monkey Mitts" with the furr snot wipers on the back for travel and generally keeping hands warm. + Mickey Mouse(Bunny) boots.
I used the felt liners inside and a pair of thin driving gloves (Like Depity mentioned) inside.

I found that contact with the trigger blade drew the heat from my finger tip like a magnet. In fact any contact with a metal surface in REAL cold weather is Baaaaaaaad Ju-Ju. If you're fingers happen to be a little moist at -30 below zero or worse, things got just a little "sticky" sometimes.

Another thing to consider is goggles/sunglasses, snow and the reflection of light will do a number on your eyes and I think it may have affected my night vision too. The cold will trash your eyes too.

Tony's heat packs are a great idea and sticking a couple in a pocket or pack can make a big difference. I had them in my pack at Carlos just in case. In Alaska, I used a "Jon-ee Warmer(sp?)" hand warmer on a length of cord to hang on my back under coat at about kidney level and that helped too. Heat packs did not exist then.
O'Course I was not evading FLIR, just trying to survive in what could be/ turn into/ a deadly weather enviroment at any second.

Chao!
peter <pngreiff@aol.com>
big city, by-gawd, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 15:45:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.26)

Hello Guys, still alive here.

Gloves: I like the Nomex unless I have to be in briars and then I go to straight leather gloves.

Update on Carlos Article: Just about finished and it should be on the way to Tactical Shooter next week

Dave L.: Have you plated with the IOR Scopes much. I tried a 10x56 a few years ago and the adjustments were crappy then. Optics were great but wouldn't make accurate adjustments.

Dave Rolls, I will try to give you a call in the next few days.

Gooch, I read the FBI report and it is a little concerning to say the least. You and Minnie Me up to no good?

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 16:14:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.184)

Just a quick note while everyone is thinking about their cold hands. Storm Mountain will be running a special 3 day winter sniper course on Jan 10-12, 2000.

It should be a great chance to work out the bugs in your cold weather gear and cold weather zeros.

We need 10 students to run it and the cost will be 300. per head. RSVP by Nov. 30, Phone is 304-446-5526.

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 16:28:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.176)

C.R.Stoddard,
What did you use to bake on the teflon finish?? It's my understanding that you need to bake it on to make it last.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 17:07:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
I like what you have done with your web page.
Good job
Chris Tyler <cwt32286@aol.com>
Estero, Florida, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 17:15:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.169.8.11)
Did anyone else catch the show "Profiler" late Sunday night on ABC?
It was about a mad sniper who terrorized the cities of Dayton, Toledo, and Columbus, Ohio with a 50 cal. sniper rifle. These Hollywood guys are starting to do their homework. There were no outrageous shots. 1800 yards being the max distance. And the camera shot of the snipers view of the targets showed a real mil-dot scope reticule. The 50 cal. rifle was loaded with one round at a time by removing the bolt. The bad guy was killed at the end with a borrowed Choate "Ultimate Sniper" stocked police rifle. When the Hero was asked what kind of ammo did he want to use to take out the bad guy, he said "Hollow point boattails of course." All in all it was quite a piece of work.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 17:42:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
How do you prep the surface for the teflon? Brownell's says to sand-blast. Sounds awkward.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 18:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.47)

Wyatt-

About scope mounts for a Savage 10FP.
I couldn't find short action scope mounts for my 10FP
I bought a two piece Weaver mount for the Savage 110FP.
I don't recall the Weaver stock number.

They are aluminum, so I don't know what may occur due to expansion rate differences between the steel receiver and the mounts.

I used Leupold quick detach scope rings.
They can snag on brush, but I didn't see anything else at the time
and don't expect to be crawling around in a ghille suit.

---> I leave that to the professionals! <---

To all-

Thanks for the tips on staying warm.
The local specialty stores will be VERY happy to see me!

Utgardaloki <utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 23:37:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Heikki: I can keep my fingers, toes, face, and fat ass warm in cold weather ops, but what I really want to know is: how do you keep your drinking water from freezing? Sometimes a stove burning at even low roar isn't possible. We've tried all kinds of wild ideas, and I was wondering how you do it up north.

Mike, I've only played with the PSO-1 style scopes a few times. Mike Haugen (one of the regular Tactical Shooter writers) taught it and a pretty ingenious ranging system to some fellas in South Asia a few years back, using their SVD's, and said they weren't too bad. Maybe comparable to the M1C or M1D.

Pete, I know what you mean by that life-sucking Alaskan cold. Korea is a lot like that. We'd lay up in night ambush sites in the DMZ with the furry back mittens, M1951 "fishtail" parkas, Mickey Mouse boots, on top of the grey GI Ensolite sleep pads. For those who've never tried it, I gotta say you've never experienced winter war 'till you've frozen your cheek and nose to a CAR-15 buttstock, or heard a frozen M16 firing pin break when you're trying to initiate an ambush.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, where it donesn't get as cold as Finland!, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 02:57:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Winter SniperCourse:

Okay Pablito, Tony, Mike, and the rest of youn'z - let's get back up to SMTC so we can freeze our asses off - and learn some more good stuff.

Ken :)

Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 03:44:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Yo,
Best solution to staying warm in the new US military is LCpl Suzy. R. Crotch. Always said there was a good reason for the new COed military. Coed sniper team in a bivvy bag! Woo Hoo!

Look out!! Incoming!!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 04:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)

Hello all,

Can anyone post to my email any information on the 5.7*28 FN individual carbine?

Any info or leads will be helpful.
thanks
Darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 06:19:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Drinking water in the winter

Regular water bottles do not work and I have had my share of solid frozen plastic bottles. No wonder the US versions warn against heating the bottle against a hot surface. Plastic will melt long before the whole ice chunk in the bottle has melted. Best thing is to leave the plastic bottles home/to base.

BTW it IS NOT wise to drink cold water in winter even if it tastes good. Your body has to warm the water and it takes energy which could be used for other purposes. Cold water also tends to get make your lips and throat sore very fast. And a coughing ambusher is not a very good one to have in your ambushing team. Also do not eat snow. It has the same effects as cold water PLUS it does not contain any minerals, it is bad for your system.

Solution: Use stainless steel thermoflasks. There are several sizes available and I suggest 1 liter or a little less is sufficient. The smaller bottles are nice, but they get cold faster and they do not hold much liquid in the bottle. This thermoflask thing is a city boy approach, but then again I am one :-) Water is of course warmed in the camp before leaving. Here in Finland a good stainless steel thermoflask costs maybe 20 USD so they shouldnīt too expensive for anyone. They do weight somewhat, but hey, in WINTER YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE MORE EQUIPMENT. There is not a way around that fact.

Our long range patrol/guerilla groups are much better in the woods and good northern lumberjacks and hunters can have their cup of coffee in five minutes with only matches, a knife and something in which to melt the snow. This is called "Kynsituli" or "nail fire" where you burn only a handfull of dry birch (or something similar, it must be dry) and the name comes from the idea that the fire is so small that it warms only your nails. Also if done properly it wont generate smoke at all. In dark the light will of course show, but it can be handled too.
I have read several stories about our long range patrol making tea in the WWII WHEN they were skiing away from Russian antiguerilla searching parties following the Finns. So it can be done, but it is a special skill that one learns only by doing it all the time in the woods. In Korea with very little vegetation in many places this of course will not work at all.

To end: Try to drink regular warm water at all times, because water melted out of snow is only a poor substritute. One can use snow but then one must eat sufficient amounts of salt, otherwise you will have the same problems as in desert where you lose all your electrolytes due to sweating. It is said that tea, coffee and alcohol should be avoided as they cause you to pee more often. This way you lose both liquid AND wamrth, so they should be avoided. From my own experience I know that lame tea tastes good with sugar and it does not force me to empty bowels all the time, so I drink it. Coffee and alcohol I find unacceptable in winter time in the woods, even in civilian life.

All in all in winter time one has to have fire or warmed water from time to time, otherwise one probably dies or is at least unable to take care of other matters than pure survival. This is one reason why I think a 3 person sniper patrol is better than a 2-person patrol. A skiing patrol leaves tracks in any case, so one person more does not cause any more problems in that sense. More equipment (a .50 for eaxmaple) is also moved easier when one has an extra hand available.

Take care.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 07:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Hey guys,
When am I supposed to receive my copy of Precision Shooting magazine? Have you gotten yours, yet? I subscribed earlier last month and they told me it gets mailed out on the 25th. Shouldn't it be here by now?

Anyway, here's one for those of you who like quotes:

"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lighly upon you,
and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.

Paul M.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 08:59:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.191)

I just ordered a cut-rifled barrel blank through Accuracy International for one of their own Cooper Precision blanks(if that made sence?). Anyway is there anybody who has used these blanks and if so have any info on quality. I ordered it to be used in a H-S Precision M-24 stock with a Rem. s/a chambered in .308, 10 twist and a NBRSA HV benchrest taper to 27". Drop me a line if you know anything about these blanks...
Todd <duckman@eznet.net>
Andover, Ny, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 11:29:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.105.149.39)
PRECISION SHOOTERS OF THE DUTY ROSTER,
I AM LOOKING FOR A RIFLE RANGE (200+METERS) IN THE NORTHEASTERN OHIO AREA. ANY SHOOTERS IN THIS AREA THAT CAN OFFER SOME INPUT? IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED.
THANKS----BEAR

Bear <cowpuncherbear@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 14:00:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.101.214.44)

Warmth: Stuff most of you know. When your core temp lowers, circulation to your hands and feet is reduced. Your hands and feet get cold. Your head and scalp act like a radiator to lower your core temp. So, if your hands are cold, put on a neck gaiter and well designed hat. Drinking lots of water keeps you warm by improving circulation.

Freezing water: Sleep with it. Stuff nalgene bottles in your sleeping bag then when you wake drink 'till you slosh. If it's inside you it won't freeze. Keep a camelback inside your clothes, if possible. Your body will warm it. Rei sells an insulated bag for Nalgene bottles that make it work as a thermos.

You can heat water early then wrap it in your sleeping bag. Beware changes in elevation that will cause your nalgene bottles to leak into your sleeping bag. I found this out the hard way. There's no blues like the wet sleeping bag blues.

The Nazis in WWII tested Gooch's trick: It worked better than anything else they tried. The conclusion was that two women worked no better than one. I'm willing to do more research.

The sacrifices we make for science.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 14:48:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.99)

On cold: One of the tricks I picked up on cold weather was to boil (yes, I carry a small pack stove, they're REALLY light / compact) snow down right before bed. If you do this right, you don't let much light at all out. Then put the hot water in your canteens, canteens in the bag. They poop out about 3 or 4 in the morning, but you get REALLY good sleep until then, even without adequate bag. Of course ground insulation is paramount. The other trick I learned was on survival course. I dig a trench about a foot deep, 6 foot long. Build a nice fire in there with thick branches, whatever. When the coals get going good, I buery the fire and then sleep on it. I had no bag but did well. Note though, that if you don't get the trench deep enough, you have a HOT bed that poops out quick. Too deep and you get a barely warm bed that poops out quick. Small wood does the same. I know this for a fact. Even though I came up with the idea on my own, seems this is an old trick.

Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 16:01:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

I too am looking to get into long range shooting and I have a question about 'custom' rifles. Often, when I see listings on the internet, custom rifles are extremely expensive costing $2000 or $3000 and upwards without optics. This makes them some 3 to 4 times more expensive than the average Remington 700 Varmint, which I understand is already a pretty accurate rifle capable of sub-MOA with the right ammunition and in the right hands. If so, then what would justify the purchase of such premium 'custom' rifles? Unless you are a police sniper faced with a hostage situation, in which case the extra precision would be worth it, would it otherwise be advisable to spend that amount of money? Are they very much better in terms of construction? Are they only useful in military/police capacities? As it is, I am looking to buy something in the aformentioned Remington in .308, but I would rather buy a really good/expensive rifle now than have to fork out more to upgrade later. Thanks for any info on this you can provide me.
Alan
Alan K <spyral9@aol.com>
Lexington, KY, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 18:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.58.219)
On the subject of shooting gloves. The rage out here in coyote city is a new glove that Wally sells. They have cut off fingers about the fist joint but a mitten top is attached and folds back to a velcro strap so it can't be lost. They sell about $16.00 and are made from something that feels like wool or is wool. Look real good and you can keep the mitten on the foreend hand.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 18:51:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
I could use some advice from you M1A shooters out there!
I'm going to have my barrel replaced some time early next year (right after I pay off Christmas) and was wondering if anyone had any experience with a REALLY good M1A guy, and which barrel to put on there. I'm convinced I should either get a medium heavy or heavy barrel. You think the extra weight (better follow up shot times) is worth the extra weight? Thanks for the info, I know one of you guys has to have a good half minute M1A!
Also, I've got a good source for Lapua bullets (closing out prices!) if anyone is interested.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 19:34:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)
Marines:

Happy Birthday Marines!!!

Thanks

Dave "Doc" King
Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@yahoo.com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 19:56:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.80.109)

To all:
Followed the .338 vs. 308 dabate some time back. I have used my share of both of them. Must agree with Gooch, Rick B. and others - for somebody unfamiliar with even a 308, there might be problems starting out with any .338. Something to consider with any .338 is weight, barrel length, and what do you get for your money. The .338 Lapua is the "in" caliber right now, but cost and convenience is an issue. Consider this: A .338WM will use about 70grs. of powder with a 250 gr.
bullet at 2700fps and 33ft/lbs Recoil Energy. With a .340W'by you use 80grs/250/2900fps/38RE,with a .338Lapua: 95grs/250/2900-3000fps/45RE, and .338-378: 120grs/250/3150fps/57RE -in most rifles 10-12lbs.
For a 70% increase in powder usage between .338WM and .338-378 you get 17% more velocity. How much is enough?? I made my choice a long time ago: the .340 W'by Mag. With the same barrel length, it will do anything the .338 Lapua will do, for a lot less money and much more convenience. But I do agree, if you got to have it, the .338 Lapua is hard to beat.

Cold weather and winter conditions - try Wolf hunting in northern British Columbia in Jan.-Febr.!

Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
B.C., CANADA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 20:01:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.27.219.240)

Hans...

If you want to compare the powder increase, to effiency, you have to compare the % of powder to the % of kenetic energy, not the % of increase in velocity.

In your example, 70% increase in powder, yelds 37% more energy.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 21:06:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.109)

I started and AK vs. AR debate on another site and got some interesting information so, I thought I would piss everyone off and do it here also :)

If you had an AR and an AK sitting side by side, each with one mag and 200 rounds in bando's, and you had to haul ass out the door, which one would you pick up and why? Easy question huh?

I also stirred up the 223 vs 7.62x39 debate but we'll leave that for later fun!!!!!!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 22:16:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.56.176)

I know this info has been covered before but I need a couple of choices for a good deer hunting "off-the-shelf" load for my SA NM M1A. I have heard not to use soft-pointed bullets. Also, were to purchase 168gr Fed GM at a reasonable price.

Thanks for your help.

FNG <glock96@hotmail.com>
TX, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 22:56:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.204.85)

Regarding AK and AR-15. I have AR 15, my brother AK. I choose AR because of the weight, also I bought carbine version (I am not a big guy). If I could buy Ak-74 plastic or AK-74s (5.45 mm) (S stands for folding stock) i would choose AK.
Another thought: at distances I am intented to use it, the size .223 vs 7.62 x 39 or 5.45 x 39 doesn't metter. Also checking my physical conditions, i do not think that I will have chance to fight in jungles or in desert..
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
Los Angeles, California, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 00:30:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.11)
newbie checking in.
Jon Holder <rifleman@terraworld.net>
Topeka, Kansas, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 01:15:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.51.57.29)
Boltster, Only for you would I even respond to a loaded question like that. I would pick up the AR-15 first and chunk it at the enemy.
Then I would pick up the AK-47 and start shooting at them.
Why? Because it would work.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkahart.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 03:19:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Pat & CDC

Brownells Teflon finishes can be baked in the oven if the parts fit, only 300 to 350 deg F is required. I suggest that you take the wife out to dinner if you are using her oven to cure your gun parts, just an idea. A couple of years ago Brownell's Newsletter described how to build an oven for curing barreled actions and such out of a piece of stove pipe, a couple of pie pans, some wire, and sand. The oven was set on a stove(camp stove?)for the heat source. It might be on their web site.

In my experience the vital part of the prep is the absolute degreasing of the parts. Use the best degreaser you can get your hands on, and don't get you hands on the cleaned parts. Use gloves. I have not used the Teflon finish on highly polished parts, but have been totally successful on mat, brushed, as cast, and other not bright polished finishes.

Note that after the finish has dried, but before it has been baked, it is very fragile. It will flake off if bumped or handled very much. The good news is that it is very easy to touch up before its cured. Once its cured it is very durable and extreemly hard to remove from the piece.
Dee <deeturner@jps.net>
Roseville, CA, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 03:27:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.119.17.167)

10 November 1775
Seems like yesterday.
Happy birthday Marines.

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UTAH, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 04:10:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

I am relatively new to the area and am wondering where I can go to fire my "sniper rifles" without having to shut down runways at major airports. It totally boggled my mind that the Marines do not have a range that can handle large caliber rifles without airport problems.

Also I am looking for a producer of a silencer that would be able to make a can for a 338Lapua, and a 50cal that will not drain my pockets totally and leave me some money to nourish my weapons adequately.

Also, where in the DC Virginia area can I get involved in competitions with other high powered users,(I also have some normal calibered weapons also)

Any help is definitely needed please respond at either the email below or this page or at ITNELMA@NGIC.OSIS.GOV and I will respond ASAP!

Thanks alot!

Matthew
Bender <mnelson338@mindspring.com>
Washington , D C , USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 04:25:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.0.60.195)

Bill you chuck that AR at me and I'll haul my ass back to 500 yards(about 200 yards past the max effective of the AK) and return fire. Where does the AR get its bad rep? Of course I'm refering to a M16A2 w/M855 ammo now. IMHO the M16A2w/M855 is the best assault rifle in the world. Shot the shit out of both of them and thats the way I feel.

Well its almost Veterans Day.

Went to the Korean War, Vietnam War and Iwo memorials today. Hadn't seen the Korean War one before. Its awsome.

There is always some guy in blue jeans, an old t-shirt and old baseball hat on standing around these memorials that gets to ya. You look at them and just kinda wonder what he had seen or done.

Its hard to try and explain to 4 and 6 year old kids what the statues and stuff are all about. I was trying to explain to my kids and my 4 year old boy asked, "What's War?" After stammering around and feeling stupid for a minute going through the old, "Well, there are certain socio-economic situations" train of thought the only thing I could really say was, "Its something you hope you never have to do." Watching them look at those memorials sure makes you think.

We were coming down from the Lincoln Memorial and some lady had a tour group of teenagers on the steps talking about the memorials. I overheard her say something about the new nurses memorial and how that men weren't the only ones to die in combat and I started to get riled as I suspected a feminazi attack when she said "But mostly its men.. Young men."

Yup.

Happy Birthday Devil Dogs and Happy Veterans Day.

Hoist one to the Corps on the 10th.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 04:26:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)

Forgot to ask this last note!

Does anyone here know how I can get in touch with the ARMY MARKSMANSHIP UNIT? I have a desire to tryout for the team but cannot find any source of numbers or a location of tryouts, I know they are out there just can't make connections.

Even a steer in the right direction would be great!
I know they are coming to town soon but the unit I am in has no contacts in that arena!

PLEASE HELP!!!

Thanks for all your help!

Matthew
Matthew <mnelson338@mindspring.com>
Washington , D C , USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 04:38:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.0.60.195)

Pat,

I used my wife's oven to back on the finish. Someone made a comment about taking the wife out for dinner when you do it. Good idea, since the smell will probably drive her out anyway. I hung the parts from the oven rack after putting it on its highest level. When you take the parts from the oven, be very careful because they stay very hot for a very long time. Give lots of cool down time.

CDC,

The instructions for the prep of the parts are on the side of the spray can. You can sandblast them if you want, but I just used some paint thinner. So far the finish is staying on nicely.

My first try at finishing with the Brownell's finish was with the non teflon spray. I used it on an 870 12 gauge. I found that it scratches very easily, so stick with the teflon type.
C.R. Stoddard <stoddard@poncacity.net>
P.C., Okla., USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 04:50:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.76.245.225)

Happy birthday to my brother and sister Marines.

E/2/3 86-90
STA 3/25 91-95
If we served together, e-mail me.

Honor, courage, commitment.

Mark Johnson <markj12pct@aol.com>
Columbus, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 05:00:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.182)

FNG,

The best price I have found anywhere for a case (500rounds) of Federal GM is at a company called "Hoplite, Inc." 502-955-5014 They advertise in Shotgun news every issue. The only thing that suprised me about the case that I got was that it arrived all in one large box, out of the 20 round white boxes, but in the red plastic holders. I called the owner at Hoplite and I was assured that it was all the same lot, but that this was called the "Range Pack." I shot some of it and it shoots just the same as my other Federal. I am getting 5 round groups of 1/4" to 3/8" groups at 100 yards.

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 06:18:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Bravo:

sleeping on a hot bed !

we collect rocks and heat them in the fire, they keep the heat better ,and you can heat them with small brush as well. heat enough for your torso if you dont have enough.

Sleep on you back or belly and stick to it, changing from back to side to whatever exposes the warm surface of whatever you were laying on, and it has to be heated up again next time you roll over.

warm feet = warm body empty your ruck if you can and use it stuffed with dry leaves / grass / newspaper / camo net / as a foot bag. the big ruckīs will go up to your knees. put a hot water bottle in the ruck, and warm feet.

In an emergency or for a short pause we huddle up, back against a Buddy / tree sit on our ruck cover up with a poncho and light a small candle ( here I use a grave light, they burn for 3 to 4 days and come in a red plastic container that keeps the glow down ) that sits on the ground between your feet. makes for a good power nap !.

Always carry some hot broth cubes and brew up during small stops.

Also, real men dont have problems to cuddle up to a buddy to keep you both warm.

"Ende"

T

Torsten <Torsten.Erning@t-online.de>
Germany - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 07:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.120)

338 LM vs. 340 Weatherby

It is true that they do not differ that much in velocity department, especially if both rifles are custom made.

I chose 338 LM because a) the Finnish Army is going over to that round and b) Lapua brass is available, even though a bit expensive, here. Norma made 340 Weatherby or 338/378 Weatherby cases are not readily available. Of course one can special order them if one has time and money. Here both calibres are very uncommon. Actually 338 LM is much more common here, you can find reloading dies for it quite easily, but 338/378 or 340 are basically in special order category here.

Other plus points (for me) in favor of Lapua are:

- Lapua brass is VERY good, Normas is good too, but bench resters tend to favour Lapua over Norma for a reason. I doubt I can find differences between these qualitywise, still it usually is best to follow those paths other have already proven to be good ones. BTW Norma has started to produce brass for 338 LM too, so US-shooters may buy it quite easily even today.

- 338 LM does not have a belt. Of course you can custom load 340 or 338/378 so that you do not care about the magnum rim, but why bother with it in the first place. And magnumbelted cases tend to be less reliable feeding-wise than calibres without belt. In target shooting this does not matter much, though. In any case I just do not like magnum belts, rational or not.

- You can buy two off-the-shelf 338 LM target loads here in Finland. I doubt anyone loads 340 or 338/378 commercially for target shooting. In the long run 338/378 might come out with a target load. Of course one can, and should, reload ammo but it is nice to have an option to shoot factory matchgrade if for no other purpose to have a standard against which to compare your handloads.

So basically I do not see any performance-related diffrences between 338 LM and 340, or even 338/378, but here in Finland my brass supply situation is just plain the opposite than what one has in the States. Besides there is hope that within a few years once-shot matchgrade military surplus brass will be available in 338 LM for a decent price. This hope is non-existent for any Weatherby round so far.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 08:21:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

One thermoflask trick: In camp fill the stainless steel bottle fully with hot water, let it warm up the flask. Empty the water and fill with another filling of boiling water. This trick will keep your water warm longer, albeit you need more warm water to begin with. In a military camp this is easy, in a small unit base camp it may not be.

As someone already said: Keep your feet warm and dry and your head properly covered and you will not have many problems. Wet feet will cause you so much trouble that you should avoid them at all costs. I have heard that Gore-Tex does not work properly in VERY cold climates, i.e. the sweat can not escape fast enough and one has to change socks all the time. This depends of course on the person and work that is going to be done. In any case changing socks, or at least drying them every night at camp is time well spent. Good headgear is also very important, because a human head has lots and lots of blood vessels on the surface of the skull.

Of digging trenches I must say that in winter it does not work here as the ground is frozen rock solid. Usually all smaller stones are also frozen to the ground. In the fall this trick with warm stones works all right, but not during real winter. Basically one has to use explosives or heavy machinery to make any trenches fast in winter time. The ground maybe frozen more than 1 meter down solidly and it approximates cheap concrete in toughness, with normal handtools (combat shovels and the like) you can forget trenches.

A total different issue:

Have you people already got your Tactical Shooter magazine for November ? I have not and in September I did not get the magazine at all. After sending a pissed of fax I did get it, but I already had got the October issue, so there seems to be a problem in international circilation. Does anyone else in Europe have this problem ? Does anyone know of a e-mail address to Tactical Shooter or Precision Shooting Magazine ?

Best regards,

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 14:07:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Gooch' you might have a good plan. Wouldn't argue the accuracy between the two with you. I've had the AR or M-16 jam on me one too many times I guess. Seriously though, if the AR jams in the field with a cartridge in the chamber and it may be a hot round. I once ruined about 3 issue gun rods on one pounding a hot cartridge out and lived to tell about it but..It can jam to the point that it can't be removed without lots of work. If there are a lot of rifles around that might now be a problem but if your down to one gun it can be suicide. Don't know if you remember the incident in the sandhills in Nam years ago. It isn't as likely to happen today but there really isn't anything to prevent it. Never heard of or had that happen with the AK but I suppose it could happen. As a result I wouldn't carry any kind of gas or blow back if I can help it at all. I've recently even scraped all mine even for hunting. Have one semi handgun and that's it. Not sure that is going too. If I had to carry a semi it would be the HK or the AK in that order. Just an old man's opinion though.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 14:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Yes it has been awhile. But I found something to vent about and I know you guys will set me straight. I just bought my Federal Gold Brass(308). First thing I did is weighed them. I just bought a new scale so I wanted to play. Most all of the cartridges ranged from 11.30 to 11.35grams. But I had several at 11.24 and 11.41grams. Is this common or acceptable? All of you wild types that load your own and don't go with the out of the box flow, let me here from you.
Tom <tscott@dominionsc.com>
here, & there, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 14:34:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.111.51.41)
NOW ITS FREAKING METRIC WEIGHT SYSTEMS!!!!!!!!

;-)

Tom,

That sounds about right for weight variation.

In the immortal words of Hannibal Lechter "Closer-Cloooser"

What is your purpose? BR, UKD, Varminting? Are you looking at minute of torso, or shaving XX hundredth of an inch from agregates?

Case weight segregation can make a difference in some rifles, others it won't even matter.

But heres a hint: Uniform the flasholes and primer pockets before final weighing and segregation, the brass burrs on the inside of flash hole, and slight variations in forming dies making the brass will be removed giving a little more realistic view of weight spread.

'Lito, Pat Murphy, Bill Rogers,
can you add anything to this??????????

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 15:15:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.76)

I have to say something on the AK/AR issue. The AR is a far superior weapon! Better accuracy, longer range, lighter ammo load, better sites, trigger. The AR round is so highly regarded that the Russians tried to copy it for the AK74. I will take an AR over any of the other exotic stuff also. Entry weapon in a 14" bbl, Cover weapon with 16or20" bbl, Target weapon with Bill Wlyde work on it. You name it is the way to go. I am building all I can find before the Commifornia ban in January.

Later Undude/Mike
MIkeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 15:35:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.37)

1st:
I've got to go with Gooch and MikeM with the AR/AK; not only that, I've slept with the M12A2 in my sleeping bag so many times that it would be adultery to pick up the AK instead.

2nd:
Again, Happy B'Day, jarheads. I know by the time I have one for Carlos, and one for Chesty, and one for my uncle (died on Iwo Jima), and my dad and I have one together, and then.... well, by the time I get down to having one for Gooch I'll not remember who I'm drink' to anymore... ;-)

Semper Fi,
Leslie
Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
VA-TN, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 15:59:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.130)

RE cold: what I haven't seen yet is a reminder that kidneys radiate heat really well too. In my opinion, I go feet, head, kidneys and hands. If those are warm, then everything is warm. Wet feet suck, and yes, goretex doesn't work for that (but I'm still wearing mine!) they do wonders for keeping the wet out. If you need better, get some mickey mouses! I use the poncho liner in the bag too, after all, who uses it to line a poncho? I do use the poncho though.

Tactical shooter: where can I get a copy to try and or subscribe? From the talk, I would be interested!

AR vs AK: I would dare say that I carried the '16 in the worst conditions for it. Blowing fine sand (White sands missile range). Still, I would take it, being jam prone, etc over the AK. Range is the key. I have found that a METICULOUSLY cleaned '16 isn't bad, as long as it's clean! That having been said, what I have now is a 16" model, but with the full length handguards. I had a CAR, but the short sight radius got to me. This way, I have the shorty collapsible stock (pre-ban) and the longer sight radius with the shorter barrel! Remember, a pistol (or shotgun if you're of that persuasion) is a defensive firearm. A rifle allows the action to be taken to the enemy. Rifle jams? The tactical decision is to not take action at that time! If you're setting up an ambush, clean the weapon! Besides, the AK that I tried (as well as the SKS's), hitting a man sized target at 300 yds wasn't NEAR as easy as it was with the '16. Sure it always goes bang, but if you can't hit, what good is it?

Well, another year older. Happy birthday to all of us from / in the Corps. After all, there is no such thing as an ex-Marine!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 16:19:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

Ende: I went on a climbing trip with a physician and medical lecturer. He gave us a big presentation, most of which I forgot. I remember a little about foot blood flow physiology. He agreed with you that, if you have a limited heat source, heat the feet. The whole body will then warm. And that's a cool trick about the candle and pancho. I'll use that when there's no time to build a tea-candle heated snow-trench.

Bolt: Hand me the flat-top AR. The one with the Zeiss 30mm 1.25 X 4 and the cleaned up trigger. That AK handles like a grocery bag full of door-knobs.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 17:00:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.34)

AR or AK? If either were loaded I wouldn't have to run. 700 or 70? Automatic or stick shift? The discussion is moot. 700P, Fed Match 175, Leupold M3 LR, Badger base, Harris BRM-S bipod. That setup will severely damage any B27 target out to 1100 yards, affordably, year round, all weather conditions, no matter what gloves you're wearing.
kenya_sheutte <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
Yourdaughtersroom, Euphoria, USA - Wednesday, November 10, 1999 at 21:26:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.130.231)
Hey guys,
I have two unrelared questions. First, I'm running low on Sweet's (breaking in da' barrel) and seeing as it's not so easy to find, how's the Barnes' copper remover? Is it as good or should I wait? Also now that the new "politically correct" G3's and FAL's are around which is a better choice?
Thanks!
Rich <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 00:10:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.51)
I am looking for adequate base/ring scope system for my NEW SAVAGE 112BT rifle in .308win that works with Springfield 2nd gen government scope with its 56mm reticle. Can someone suggest positive solution as i know that leupold base/super high rings need about another 1/16th of an inch. Is the redfield base higher that it might work? Or is MMC or EAW system warranted. I would surely want to stay under $150 abs max, no more unless it cooks dinner.

thanks, jeff K
jeff kendziorski <pecan_st@i-enternet.com>
pflugerville, tx, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 00:28:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.218.166.241)

Can someone tell me what is the proper way to measure group size? Extreme outside spread, center to center, ...............? Thanks.
Kevin
Kevin S. <krksmith@icehouse.net>
USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 00:42:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.160.9.3)
Happy Birthday Marines!!!! And may freedom forever be our ultimate goal. Let not the flame of freedom ever flicker but shine brighter.
Semper Fidelis my brothers and don't get too messed up!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 01:46:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.14)
To All -

Please offer up two prayers in remembrance of Veterans Day.

The first prayer in memory of those who sacrificed everything
so that future generations of Americans would know freedom.

A second prayer for the present generation -
may they find the wisdom and courage to keep their freedom.

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 02:13:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Kevin
When it comes to measuring group size flatten out the paper,use clear scotch tape to cover and bring the holes closed and as uniform as possible and measure the centers of the holes furthest apart. Well thats how I do it anyway. Oh ya use a set of calipers too. Thats the most accurate for me.

How does everyone else do it?????
Todd <duckman@eznet.net>
Andover, NY, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 03:10:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.105.149.18)

AK vs. AR ?

Considering the comments I’ve been reading in the Duty Roster about AR reliability, I would have thought Americans who want a reliable military style semi-auto would buy an AK in .223…

Yet, I recall only Norinco and Valmet marketing .223 chambered versions of the semi- auto AK.
I must presume most folks who buy an AK clone here are only interested in an example of a Russian design. Owning an AK clone in
.223 is too far removed from the original AK 47.

I like the weight, balance and ergonomics of the AR but would prefer an AK chambered for .223 ( due to the gas system and the widespread military and civilian .223 availability in the U.S.).

I’ve never warmed to the AR’s direct impingement gas system or its long thin gas tube.

Yet, I am seriously considering purchasing an Armalite flat top AR next year due to parts availability, and the flexibility of swapping uppers and barrels.

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 03:26:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Group size - maesure outside edge to outside edge extreme spread and subtract one bullet diameter for center to center spread. It's easier than guessing where the hole centers are.
Pat T. <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 03:55:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)
I have built an AR with a 20 inch heavy barrel. The sights are graduaded at the adjustment knob from 300 to 800. My question is which bullet weight/speed combination is this calibrated for.

I have been shooting some factory 55 grain stuff and some 52 grain BTHP reloads but want to be able to sight the weapon in and dial the range accuratly. is the current bullet used by the military heavier now for better range?

Will using copper solvent in an AR effect the aluminum gas tube?

Waiting for the rain so i can do some bullet drop playin.
Can't seem to find out what the changes in drop might be.
thanks.
recon
recon <strekman@hotmail.com>
Ks, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 06:31:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.82)

Group size ??

If bad guy runs away = bad group,

if bad guy drops = good group !

Torsten <Torsten.Erning@t-online.de>
Germany - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 07:26:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.120)

RE: Measuring group size

I read years ago in a gun magazine to measure the farthest holes, outside edge to inside edge. This will give you you "center-to-center" measurement without having to "guesstimate" the exact center. I've used this ever since. That said, I can see many times when Pats suggestion would work better (i.e. tight one hole groups.)
Use both. Thanks Pat.

PS-Cool term I heard last month-"Rosterfarians..." How about a T-shirt...
David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 07:36:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.13.20)

I cant believe that we are debating the Ak vs AR. Especially cant believe that I feel the need to comment. Oh well here goes
I have owned 3 ARs a early colt, a bushmaster with a compass lake trigger, and a car parts gun built on a PWA reciever that cost about $400. wholesale. The Colt didnt work-pawned it , the bushmaster was fincky- jammed after about 200rds pawned it. The parts gun had a wilson barrell that was too tight when it came. Shot GREAT easy sub MOA but only for about 80rds hello jams, Replaced the upper with a bushmaster, most of the eternals with bushmaster- the Taiwan bolt destroyed itself after about 10k rounds replaced with DPMS bolt. Since then Zero malfuctions. This summer alone I put 5k through it usually cleaning it after 300rds but sometimes going as much as 600. The gun is a joy wouldnt trade it for 3 AKs (well maybe 3 polytech prebans :). Its beat to hell and i trust it implicitly.

My point is that my experience is that Ar can quite commonly take quite a bit of tweaking to work well. It is a prime example of US technology - when it works it works great.

On the other hand I have never seen a AK that does not work under any condition. Put 60 rds through it, cool barrel with snow repeat. Great weapon. The best one I had shot 3 MOA with handloads (bulgarian milled). but who cares both ar/ak are security weapons for 100yd work. I now own zero AKs. Why? Because shooting the AR is such a pleasure. An Ak gets the lead down range but it is stolid middle ground peformer not capable of excelling.

So back to the question Which would I pick heading out the door MY 15 hands down. If i was heading down to the gunstore to buy a gun that I didnt want to have to put 3k through before trusting it, the AK hands down.

Ben

Ben W <shotcrete@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 07:36:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.4)


To All US Veterans,

Thank you from both myself and my family!

Without you, We would be feeding those that manufacture and carry AK's for the business of furthering totalitarianism.

Talking, Bragging , Gloating about AK's on our Veterans Day feels sacrilegious to me. Should to you Too!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 13:00:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.191)

My comment to AK vs. AR debate:

I have shot with Valmet (7.62x39 and M76), Sako M92S and Norinco-made AK-type rifles. I have also owned and used Bushmaster-made 14.5" AR (M4). To my experience Valmets and Sakos are about as accurate as ARs (at least M4) and Norinco looses clearly against others. Recoil is milder with AR because .223 kicks less than 7.62x39. But what decides is the shooter, not the gun: in Applied Reserve Shooting (militarized IPSC) in Finland both AK and AR type of guns are popular, and the results show best shooters getting about equal performance with Sako M92S (7.62x39) and AR15 (.223).

Personally I preferred AR for shooting, but AK-type (Valmet/Sako) for reliability. Then I found a solution that gives best of both worlds, and purchased a Sig SG 550-1 SP in .223 about half a year ago. It cost me about US$ 2.000 NIB, but gives excellent accuracy combined with the reliability of gas action quite similar to AK, plus something extra like an integral bipod and better trigger than in any other semiauto rifle I have seen.

Ossi (from Finland)
Ossi <ovuorila@levi.urova.fi>
Finland - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 16:06:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.167.212.87)

recon,

'Will using copper solvent in an AR effect the aluminum gas tube?'

Several months ago I posted about copper solvents are essentially ammonia. Well ammonia and other compounds that provide ammonia and reducing agents to help with the copper dissolution, but aluminum should not be affected.

Ammonia is an alkaline solution. The Merck Index states, chemically speaking, that aluminum is dissolved by dilute acids (hydrochloric and sulfuric), dilute alkalis (potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide). Ammonia is not listed as dissolving aluminum. Remember that aluminum oxidizes readily in moist air. This oxide actually protects the aluminum. Aluminum oxide can be dissolved by aqueous alkali, such as ammonia but should not be problem.

Jerry
Jerry <jerryk-one@juno.com>
So., California, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 17:49:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.94.86.54)

On the AR vs AK debate

I would choose to take my M1, rechambered to 308. All of the advantages of the AK in the reliability department and much better accuracy. It can easily be used for game hunting as well, unlike the AR or the AK74. (YOU can shoot a bear with a 223. I'll pass)

Sure, the ammo is heavier. The rifle is also a bit heavier than the AR and not as accurate. It will still hold minute of torso out there and penetration is much better at range.

That's for offensive firepower. If I really had to run and knew I needed both offensive and defensive in one weapon, I'd choose a 11-87 in 12 gauge.

YMMV.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 20:32:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Guys, lets face it half the world uses Ar's and the other half use AK's both work. I will take my Boltgun and 900 yards anyday.

Group size: measure extreme edge to extreme edge. Subtract bullet diameter and that is the group size. If you want to really see what a rifle can do go to either five or ten shot groups, most guns can fluke a small three shot group once in awhile

AR's that dont work. You must be using bad parts or bad ammo. I think if the design was bad and needed reworking we would have heard something by now. All past problems have been traced to bad ammo. No Auto weapons work with bad ammo all the time. I have five AR's and all run very well. I have carried 16's a great deal and my favorite get the heck out gun is a M16 16" shorty. When you get AR Stuff watch out for non spec parts. Buy from a big company(Colt Bushmaster) and you will be OK.

11/87 12Ga is a great entry gun but ammo is too heavy and weapon has to short of range for a bug out gun.

Well George of Denny's guns is starting a new rifle project for me to test. Norcal/Jerry Rice is building a new 300 Win Mag for me and hopefully my US Optics Scopse will be getting to me in two weeks. I am finished with all the other rifle test and will be mailing the articles to TS in the next few days.

Remember all the Veterans well.

Undude/Mike

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calf., USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 21:59:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.187)

Tom Scott...
Please Dude... no metrics, unless your ISP is in Europe... life is tough enough. After about two hours of math, I converted it to grains, and a spread of 11.24 to 11.41grams (about 2 grains) is very acceptable for .308 match brass. Several lots of Nickled Fed .308 brass all weighed betweem 175 and 176.9 (three mixed lots)... my last lot of a 1000 spread from 155 to 173 (major bummer). I picked 10 of the lightest, and 10 of the heaviest (all once fired), and shot them with weighed charges, and there was a 90 fps difference, and the light cases would hold 2 more grains of ball to the mouth. Needless to say, they didn't shoot into one group.

On AR vs AK. I guess I've been lucky... My first AR was a Duck billed 15 in '65, and was a POS, and I was down on them... but in 91 or 92, I bought 2 H-BAR's, and they have been flawless.
I also got a CAR/SP-1 with the pencil thin barrel, and 3x Colt scope, and it cleaned a John Farnam "Urban Combat" coures... it was the best combination of light weight, accuracy, and speed, and everybody wanted to borrow it... so I lent it to the guy that beat me :(

I don't have a AK, but do have a .308 Galil (Israeli improvment on the AK), and I'm very pleased with it, especially with the scope mount, that's on the reciever, instead on the stamped bolt cover.

If I had to decide what to take, if the poop hit the fan, I'd need a pick up truck.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 22:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.114)

First of all, a big thanks to the vets on your day. I should have joined when I had the chance in '72 but I didn't and now really regret it.

Anyway, what I have learned so far on the great debate.....

It's a matter of personal preference and previous experience.

A 223 can make you just as dead as a 7.7x39.

You can get a little more range out of the 223 than the 7.62 with a little bit better accuracy from a standard, not tricked out or match AR. Me thinks that in the heat of battle, up close and personal, range don't mean shit, accuracy maybe a little more.

Even as dumb as the Gubment is, if the AR wasn't worth a damn, you guys wouldn't be using it.

They both can jamb if not cleaned. DUH

If you want more rounds per pound, carry a 223.

If the shit hits the fan, whatever you have in your hand is better than something in the safe.

Think I'll just carry the 870 with slugs and buck. If the bastard is 00 yards away shooting at me, he probably can't shoot for shit anyway cause he hasn't visted SNIPERCOUNTRY.COM.

Semper fi, hope it's legal for a not military person to say that!

Happy hunting, the little bambies are calling. 223 or 7mag, hhhhmmmm?

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, November 11, 1999 at 23:19:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.47.139)

Does anyone find that their rifle systems accuracy is optimal within a narrow or wide temperature margin? Fed match 175 (all one lot number) works fantastic (<1MOA at 50-85degF 100-1000y) but goes >2MOA above 90degF 500-1000y (mirage effects?). It averages <2MOA 45degF and cooler (but I'm shivering anyway) 500-1000y. Has there been or does anyone know of any testing with a machine rest/rail gun to eliminate human errors and environmental sighting effects to determine whether it's the environmental effects on external ballistics that decrease accuracy due to temp or the temp effects on the powder causing pressure variations (internal ballistics) effecting long range accuracy? I realize there is less lift for aero systems in hot weather (air thinner), so does a thinner air medium produce less stability for a projectile while exerting less drag? Less accuracy at higher elevations? A) All of the above. B) Whatever.

Good Shooting
kenya sheutte <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
thedoghouse, euphoria,CA, USA - Friday, November 12, 1999 at 01:19:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.139.41)

Recon,

Good article in Precision Shooting on shooting in the rain. Hate to tell you but they don't drop, they fly all over the place if they hit a rain drop.

Pat,

Did make it back to West Virginia. You would have loved the match. Made time to go by Gettysburg and stand on Little Round Top. Got by the Viet Nam Memorial at 0330, it was raining, impressive, but I still don't like it. Also visited my favorite dead president, Jefferson. In all a damn good trip.

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UTAH, USA - Friday, November 12, 1999 at 04:07:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

Computer nixed first download.
Does anyone find their rifle systems accuracy is optimal within a narrow or wide temperature margin? Fed match 175 (all one lot number) works fantastic 50-75degF with <1MOA at 200-1000y near sea level (500’), but opens up to >2MOA above 90degF at 500-1000y (a sighting mirage effect limitation?). It averages <2MOA below 45degF at 500-1000y (even though I’m shivering!). Has anyone heard or read of any testing performed with rail guns (eliminating human effects and sighting limitations) during high temperatures shooting long range? My guns group worst at high temps. If aero devices have less lift in hot conditions could it be there is insufficient drag to maintain stabilization of the projectile? If true, what about at high elevation on hot days using VLD’s? Could just be higher chamber pressures (temp sensitive powders) and more exaggerated barrel vibrations as a result? Inconsistent ground thermal effects?

A) All of the above
B) Whatever
C) AR or AK?

Good Shooting
kenya sheutte <kenya_sheutte@yahoo.com>
thedoghouse, euphoria,CA, USA - Friday, November 12, 1999 at 04:30:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.133.84)

Though this isn't "shoot and scoot country" I have a question for you AR guys. Sold my last H-BAR years ago but all this AR/AK talk gave me a "the itch". You know the symptoms, or you wouldn't be here.

So, what's the verdict on the Bushmaster's barrel quality, overall quality, accuracy, dependability etc? Found a flat-top that feels pretty good, but the opinions of people who buy .223 components in bulk would be appreciated.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 12, 1999 at 04:39:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.37)

CDC,
I have several AR type weapons and the majority of them are from Bushmaster. I have only had trouble with one A-2 "match" 20" heavy complete upper. I called Bushmaster up and described the trouble and was told to send it in. A couple of weeks later I got it back and I havn't had any trouble since. I think that their quality is top notch overall.

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, California, USA - Friday, November 12, 1999 at 06:17:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

AWC M26 rifles.
Does anyone have experiance with or knowledge of the AWC modified M1A rifle they call the M26 and M27? How do they shoot. I have read an article where they claim sub minute accuracy. I may have a chance to aquire one but need information.
Thanks,
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Friday, November 12, 1999 at 06:58:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.120)
great site......keep prowlin and growlin
mark wittie <mcw104@aol.com>
USA - Friday, November 12, 1999 at 11:14:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.232.71)
To the hundreds of thousands of US military men and women that I did not get the opportunity to shake hands with yesterday...thank you.

Thank you for the freedom that I enjoy every day of my life.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, November 12, 1999 at 15:12:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Does anyone have experence with the Shepherd Enterprises rifle scopes? I am looking for a scope and would like to receive any information anyone has, pro or con.

Thanks
Danley Reed <dmr11@msn.com>
Columbia, SC, USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 01:23:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.116.133)

To all,

With all this talk of surviving the cold, and Veterans day, I was watching the History Channel yesterday when they were reading letters from soldiers who were writing home. There was one letter that stuck in my mind and since it was on topic I will try to recall it for fellow Rosterfarians. It was written during WW2 on the Western Front.

ON THE WESTERN FRONT

Hello John, Ann and all the Little Ones:

The weather has been very cold over here with plenty of snow, snow and
more snow. As I look at the kids sledding, throwing snow balls, etc., it
brings back many memories of the good times I had when I was a kid. All
us lads from the Northern states remember it well. As kids we loved it.
Took out our Flexible Flyers and went belly-whopping down the hills.
Made snow men with it. Packed it into hard, round balls that caught
other kids in the head and melted down the backs of their necks. When
our hands got red and our feet got cold we would call it a day. We would
go indoors to a hot fire and a good scolding for getting our feet wet.
We would put on dry socks and shoes and eat hot chow to take off the
chill. When we were kids snow sure was fun.

There’s a lot of snow on the Western Front these days, and the country
looks like a Christmas card. The trees are like old queens stooping
under the weight of their ermine robes. The wires loop from pole to pole
like tinsel on a Christmas tree, except where the weight of ice and snow
has pulled them down and the signal repairmen are patching them. Snow
lies smooth on the hillsides ; it’s beautiful.

But the Flexible Flyers have turned into tanks. The snow men are
Schutzstaffel. The snowballs are grenades. The wet stuff trickling down
the back of necks is often blood. And when you’re wet and numb with cold
there’s no place to go to. Nothing to look forward to. Nothing but snow,
Cold, wet, beautiful snow.
 

Well folks this is all for now so I’ll say so-long for awhile. Hoping
this letter finds you all in the best of health, I remain

Sincerely,
Frank
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H.., Ohio, USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 02:21:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

I know Im a day late but hope everyone had a reflectful Veteran's Day. I certainly did!!

peteR I also feel the same way about all this bragging about those AKs out there. Great Gun for the VC and now we brag the piece of shit up. Thank you peteR.

Now for Al's Poetry Corner.

A Soldier's Prayer
by
Maj Gen. James B Middleton

Lord, bless the wives who grieve alone,
And comfort the mothers who mourn their own.
Give solace to the fathers who lost their sons
On foreign shores and in places unknown.
Lord, strengthen the resolve of we who remain
To see that they did not die in vain.

Amen.

Remember our lost!!

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Standing Proud in the Grand and Glorious Republic in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 04:03:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.131)

Are there any more comments about the bushmaster by those of you who buy primers in boxes the size of a small travel trailer? That flat-top barks and wags it's tail every time it sees me.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 04:57:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.146)

I can't seem to find any info on reloading SS109/M855 .223/5.56 62Gr.
Can anyone help me out? I have found data on every other bullet weight known but not the 62 gr. I'm also kinda stuck on the powder dilemma. Varget or WW748? And what charges? I would appreciate the help. Post here or e-mail me . Thanks guys
Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
NH, USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 07:11:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.57)
This is written in response to an Emporium posting by 'Little Sniper" and is also directed at any other under-age, over-enthusiastic visitors to this site.

The problem that I see relates to your taking of a peculiar user name; 'Little Neighborhood Sniper'. There has been a great deal of press lately about American youth committing terrible murders with guns, as you know. There are two serious problems with this:

1) It gives the non-shooting population an incorrect impression of the true nature of the shooting sports and those interested in them.

2) It gives the liberal press more fuel to promote their bias on firearms; a dangerous threat to the constitutional rights we now enjoy.

While you may have no intention of causing any harm to any other people, and I hope I'm correct, you're flamboyant use of the word 'sniper' in your user ID sends up a caution flag to those of us who are aware of the risks created by such behavior. Young people tend to have a less-developed sense of the societal impact of their actions. As such, they are regarded with suspicion by those who have a clear understanding of the broad implications such actions may have.

Your interest in guns and shooting cannot be criticized by any self-respecting member of what's known by some as the 'Gun Culture'. Truth be known, the vast majority of we who are involved in legal, responsible use of firearms had similar interests in our youth. The difference is two-fold: we did not have the cloud of so many juvenile crimes hanging over our heads and, we did not find the need to hang such a controversial label on ourselves (little neighborhood sniper).

As the father of three pre-teen children, I would likely advise them to stay clear of one who espouses such a label -just to be on the safe side. On the other hand, your interest, if properly pursued, could lead you into contact with some of the most friendly, intelligent people you'll ever meet - other shooters. It's not unhealthy to have this interest. But a too-casual approach to guns and shooting could lead to terrible results and experienced shooters know this.

As far as your use of the Sniper Country website, there are clearly stated rules for this site which prohibit use by minors. You have disregarded those restrictions and, by doing so, have alerted the rest of us that you are one who may disregard other rules or laws as well. There is a saying that says, "integrity is doing the right thing when there is no one else around". You have demonstrated the opposite of this - doing the wrong thing when everyone can see you do it. This translates into a question of trustworthiness. Trustworthiness and integrity are two of the most valuable characteristics in a person. You may want to strive to re-attain them.

My advice to you, if desired, is simple: Lose the flashy user ID. Choose something a little less radical - your personal image does not have to be a reflection of your internet ID. And another thing: If you are seriously interested in the shooting sports or guns in general, get with your mom or dad and visit a local gun store to learn of local clubs where you can become more involved. Don't do this alone because you'll be met with more caution. But pursue your interest - legally. It's a worthy pursuit.

And, finally, stay away from Sniper Country. Not because people don't like you or don't want you involved in shooting, but because the rules say you shouldn't be here. It's the right thing to do.

Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Callery, PA, USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 13:45:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.54)

Roger, well put.

From someone who learned to shoot at age 12 (my brother was 10), I could not have put it better. My earliest memories are of either Mom or Dad driving the two of us to the range to practice, or to a match).

Responsibility and citizenship used to be taught, and taken for granted. Yesterday, our Veteran's Day, was one of the times we were supposed to remember and commemorate that kind of thinking.

God Bless you, Roger, and those who have sacrificed, and those who choose to exercise the full range of their rights as United States citizens.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, For the most part, still Gun-Friednly Virginia, USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 14:34:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Does anyone where I can order/purchase a Mil-Dot Master online?
dan <danr@acnet.net>
s. texas, USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 16:48:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.33.9)
For those who are interested, we now have the Sniper Country hats back in stock. Shirts have been out of stock since July but some interest seems to be picking up and if I can get about 25 orders in, I'll run them again. Is anyone interested in a different color, say Dark Green or Forest green? I would also like to drop off the large wording on the back.

With the changing season and colder weather I hope to be picking up reviews again. I have been away from the computer as much as possible for the summer and want to thank those of you who have stayed with SC during our slow times and times of no new written material. I'd like to give PeteR a big thanks for taking up the slack for me! I would like to say "I'MMMM BACK!!!" but my time is still spoken for. Soon my friends! Soon.

Scott Powers
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 20:35:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.85.102)

I'M IN HEAVEN!!! Got to shoot a friends ATI M24 SWS with US Optics SN-3 (I think it's a 3) on top! Talk about a SYSTEM!! I will be doing a review on the scope - look for it - and may do an up-date on the M24! Only complaint is, this rig is HEAVY!! My guess is around 18 lbs! I've shoot this type system more than he has and with GM308M I was getting TRUE 0.5" groups at 100yds, his where like 0.8" at 100. Somebody put lead in my boots so I won't float away!!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, November 13, 1999 at 23:37:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.56)

Pete, I just read you comment on my absence. It was none of the places you mention. I was in Sturgis, South Dakota. It just took me this long to lose the last biker. They've been hounding me since last August for having the balls to show up on a Kawasaki sport bike! It was touch and go there for a while since they'd set up road blocks from Rapid City to eastern PA, trying to rope me in. Lucky for me none of them can maintain 130 mph with out blowing engine parts all over the countryside!

Anyway, worry not! I survived and your photos are on their way to Marius! The poor guy is in for a shock. I am sending him at least 20 images! Not sure South Africa can handle that much data in the stream at one time!

Last note. I officially hung up the racing leathers today. The ZX9R is put to bed for the winter and I am starting to eye the ole PSS again. A man can only love one girl at a time after all. Least that is what I am told by these here alien types with the long hair and odd frontal appendages.

Scott
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 00:36:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.88.153)

Al; I love you man wish we had ajoining sheep ranches but you hit it right on the head. A million little fellers with AK-47's chased our ass out of Vietname. I wouldn't like to see that repeated. Take that M-16 to a ground war and it will happen again.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 01:16:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Dan, Mildot masters are available at www.trgt.com.

Bill R, A million VC/NVA didn't chase us out of RVN. A couple of hundred senators/congressmen and journalists did.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 01:44:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.181)

Lost a war after winning every significant battle. Walter Cronkite did more for the NVA war effort than the AK ever did.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 02:12:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.33)

Sorry for the incomplete message, had to log off & make a call, but polygonal barrels, I'm building a .308 and looking at 24" cut & rifled versus a 20-22" polygonal barrel. What's the word?

Over & out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 02:56:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.72)

All right, as an 0321 that had to hump a radio for 3dr Recon Bn, I HATE COMM. So, down to buisness, as my fragmented previous message shows, I am building a new long range shootin' iron. I'm going to stick with .308 and the builder of my rifle is steering me toward a polygonal barrel to cut down on length. I have been out of the shooting biz for a while and need to get back up to speed on new technology. Has any one had experience with polygonal barrels? It is told to have equal muzzle velocity in a 20" barrel that a standard 24" cut & rifled has. Any thoughts, comments? How would muzzle flash be effected (i probably know the answer to that) Any info would help

Kush, over & out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 03:04:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.72)

Gooch; So it is said, I would/did anticipate your reply (not neccessarily you but I knew it would be there). I've had my patronage questioned and loyalty come in doubt before over these weapons choices but America the beautiful doesn't always have the best weapons for the foot soldiers in spite of the espirit de corps and the loyalty of the men that use them. Without the AK the war in Viet Nam would have been a holding action much like Korea. Just my opinion, perhaps.... I must offer this from one who was there...
"I kept four M-16 rifles in my helicopter, I cleaned each rifle at least once a day...often twice a day. We fired the M-16 rifles frequently from the helicopter. We would fire one rifle twenty rounds then put it down and fire another. If the M-16 becomes hot it will not fire. If the M-16 is not cleaned frequently it will not fire....obviously it is not a good infantry rifle."
"The M16 is so poorly designed,in such a pitiful caliber that coyote and fox hunters have even found it completely inadequate." George Herter . (count me among them).
"We'd found Marine after dead Marine with an M-16 clutched in his hands. One or two of the poor bastards had them between their legs, apart ; they were fieldstripping them in the heat of the battle!"
(Battle of the Sand Dunes) Ed Kruger (Viet Nam Sniper).
"Cash fired another M-16 for one magazine then it jammed. What a fXXking toy! Damn it! I reached the Marine we had passed and got there in time to see him spit out his last breath." ED Kruger (Dead Center.)
I submit it took 30 years to get this thing to cycle and shoot at all and just good enough to use on a range. The twist and the load had to be changed to unorthidox proportions and the tranjectory ruined before it would begin to serve. I'm not waving the flag boys I'm lookin at the gun. For those who call the AK-47 a Chinese POS should know that it was designed by a Belgian Ernest Vervier I believe was his name.
In 1966 the United States Army Ordinance tested the M-14, AK-47 and the M-16,. In identical tests.
The AK 47 malfunctioned 112 times.
The M-14 malfunctioned 164 times.
The M-16 malfunctioned 2476 times.
So naturally the kept sending it to our troops.
Gooch may be right about who ran us out of Vietnam.
IN the words of a famous Possum.
"We has met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 04:36:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

To Dean Macalise(SP)

I have not admired your paragraphs of enthuthuasism for years!
I only wish Hanoa had taken your face off in Lewis in 96. I am glad to hear that you are out of MY military and that you owe big bucks to everybody for services not rendard, 2nd Ranger Bn. 1st SFG(A) Happy hunting Dean, Sleep tight, Ha, Ha, Ha,
sniper1 <jrooster@hotmail.com>
colorado Springs, Colorado, USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 08:57:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.74.128.244)

I add to what B.R. said... so many guys were pickin' up AK's in "Nam, that Lake City was making 7.62x39 ammo for them.
There was a time that the U.S. had designed some of the best weapons in the world... many are still in use after more than 40 or 50 years... the 1911, Ma' Duce... etc. But now we use Italian side arms, Israeli and German sub guns... not a good sign. And it shouldn't take 30 years to get a rifle right.
In WW-1, it took an average of 7,000 rounds of rifle fire to take out an enemy.
In WW-2, it took 25,000 rounds.
In 'Nam it took between 250,000 to 500,000.
Not a good endorsement.

The AR is now a pretty good gun, but when a lot of our guys needed it, is was lame and crippled.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Runnin' fer cover in my hide!, USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 12:02:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.40)

All - site info - off topic - but you should read:

Okay gang - here's the status. T1 was installed. I need to configure my ISP's and my equipment for cutover. He gave me documentation and access to his routers and said "be in charge of your own destiny and don't knock my other customers off the air".
So - that means that sometime today - this site will go dark for a period of time - hopefully not too long.

Thanks,

Ken :)
Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 13:17:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.60)

The M-16 versus the world debate. I see it still rages on. Something to remember. The troops in Vietnam were not killed by their failing M16s. They were killed by the failures of politicians and political hacks who rushed things through and in the process forgot to train OR SUPPORT the troops. For one thing, that 250,000 rounds per dead NVA figure is telling. It shows a total lack of proper training. Or will to fight as trained. Arguably understandable considering the screwed up conditions the troops faced in Vietnam.

But that 250,000 figure paints a sad picture of many troops simply hosing down an area, Magazine after magazine, while never seeing their target. How many weapons will take this abuse when they are not issued with cleaning gear or when they are not set up from the start to handle jungle humidity? The 16 is probably one of the easiest weapons to clean ever issued by the US to its troops, yet the new rifle was issued with out cleaning equipment AND to make matters worse, the incorrect powder was used in the cartridges, which caused excessive fouling. This last item alone is probably what accounted for more dead American than any other failing of the original M16. Even those who conscientiously cleaned their weapon faced stoppages only a magazine away because the powder in question was totally incompatible with the rifle. They died so some bureaucrat could show a fiscal savings by using old surplus powder!

So do we blame the rifle? I think not. When used with the proper powder and cleaned normally like any other weapon, it was very functional and effective. So where does the blame lay? We blame the ranking morons who screwed the weapon system up BEFORE it ever reached mass distribution. When the Air Force got a hold of it in-country they seemed very impressed with both the wounding characteristics and the functionality of the weapon. In turn, others in leadership roles saw its benefit and became its champion. It was not until it was issued to the regular troops that things went south. Once in mass distribution, some knuckle head decided to use up vast lots of surplus powder in the new 5.56 cartridge. Powder that the rifle could not handle and was not designed for! The bad rep for the rifle started there and was compounded by the issuance of no cleaning gear. Then there was the lack of a chrome lining in the bore and chamber. The fault lay not with the rifle as originally designed, but with the stupidity of those who placed it in service before asking some important questions about where it would serve.

At any rate, the rifle has more than proven itself an equal match for the AK and other weapons over the years. It is superior to most. Since the worlds militaries adopted the philosophy of small cartridges, the M16 has led the pack, outshining all the competition when viewed as an over all system. Not even the venerable H&K can compare when you take into account the total package (weight, accuracy, function, ease of maintenance et cetera).

If you are going to hate or negatively judge the AR based on an issue 35 years in the past, then you have bought into an argument older than most of the troops fielding the rifle today. Men died with broken M16s in their hand not because it was a piece of shit. They died because some piece of shit human refuse made same very bad decisions about its early deployment. There are issues that can screw the system: Incorrect ejector spring length - weak extractor springs - incorrect powder , to name a few. But over all, the weapon has been very reliable during the 30 odd years it has been in service.

I am not typing all of this because I am a fan of the AR. I used to think exactly the same way as several others who have expressed negative opinions of the AR. I bought an AK before ever really experiencing the AR system. I spoke ill of the M16 just like others, but the opinion was all based on old history, not current fact. I have had good experiences with both the AK and the AR and M16. But it became quickly apparent that if I wanted to hit something I aimed at, every time, the AR/M16 was the way to go. It also proved very functional in both my military and civilian experiences. The only time I ever had a real failure to function was with blank ammunition, in training, where we might fire hundreds of rounds in full auto over a weekend with most of the powder fouling going back into the bolt carrier. With live ammo I have never really had a problem with a properly built rifle. Fouling has been minimal.

Wow. I do not know if this lengthy commentary means I am back or not! But it sure is fun to be on the roster again!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 14:53:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.86.83)

To Pablito,

Thanks for the poop on polygonal barrels. Any suggestions on barrels to lean to, go to manufacturers, solid versus fluted, twist rates? I'm looking to build something close ( if not better ) than the M40A1 I humped around in The Corps. I'm thinking Krieger or Lijia bor barrels, 24" with 1 in 12. Any input would be appreciated.

Kush, over & out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 15:08:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.61)

AR/AK: Typical me, I add my $.02 after everyone else is sick and tired of the issue. A couple of things I didn't see mentioned: Which one would you rather have as a tool for beating your way out of a rolled HUMV, or into/out of a building? Which one would you rather have as a club to fend off three 240 pound machete/kris/pitchfork/whatever-wielding brutes bent on tearing you into three equal pieces? These scenarios require that the rifle still funtions as a rifle afterwards.... maybe these scenarios seem wild, but they just make the point that accuracy, reliabilty, firepower, and ergos might not be the only factors to consider. I believe I could make either one inoperable with a single, carefully-placed whack of a 2-foot 2 X 4 (to the rear 1/2 of the receiver cover on the AK, blocking the bolt carrier movement; to the middle of the top handguard on the AR, pinching off/bending the gas tube, making it misalign and not telescope into the carrier key), but I think in terms of overall, serious hard-knock abuse resistance, the AK is stonger. For everything but this and very-bad-conditions reliability, I'd take the AR. They are just so danged magazine-sensitive; the magazines are weak and inconsistant in quality from maker to maker. They can all be made to work, but the AK mags seem to all work all the time, regardless of which country made them.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
XXX, MI, USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 18:17:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.56)
B. Rodgers - re: M-16's. I carried one for most of 20 yaers in combined Marine Corps and US Army service, starting in 1968. I was originally issued an M-14 in country and managed to be somewhere else for several months until finally ordered to exchange for an M-16. My firs was an M-16a1, forward assist chrome bore). Most stoppages I personally experienced wer due to faulty ammunition, including a squib round which didn't get the bullet down the bore to allow another round to be chambered, despite repeated banging on the forward assist. A cleaning rod down the the muzzle cleared that one, but the pucker factor was horrendous. I learned to carry a can of wd-40 over the years. Whatever else it is, it's a damn good solvent, and clears bolt fouling with a quick spray in emergencies. I have personally fired one on a range for a demonstration, with someone else feeding me loaded magazines, in full auto supported mode, until it got hot enough to glow in full sunlight. I suspect it wasn't much good afterwards, but I had absolutely no stoppages. I can't remember ever breaking a part on one. I have no reservations about the m-16 being equal to any task I might put it to.

Pablito - re: Lake City 7.62x39 - I have never come across an account of 7.62X39 Lake City ammo being issued to US troops other than sterile ops or operations involving troops operating unsupported in territory where it was important to remain undetected. The reason for this is to get away from the distinctive sound of US weapons vs. the AK. If you have recorded instances of general issue of ak's and LC 7.62x39 I would certainly like to read them. No offence intended, but I am somewhat of a military history buff, and I've never seen them. I always look for the opportunity to expand my knowledge.

Pat T.
Pat T <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Sunday, November 14, 1999 at 18:23:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

Thanks for all your comments on the M-16/AR series. There is a lot of truth that things have finally been worked out and confidence has been restored. You don't mind if I don't depend on them for something serious like hunting coyotes in the Southwest. It takes a real gun to do that. Just funnin! Stimulating discussion by jove!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 00:28:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
All - site:
Okay gang - looks like we're back in hyper drive. Sorry for piss poor connectivity over the past several weeks. Looonng story - glad to be where we're at. Thank God for data circuits.

Onward and back to tactical shooting.....

Rod - (ken snickers) How much ammo do we bring to the Winter course?

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 00:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Okay, on the AR/AK thing. Like I said before, I was basing my observations on the issue based on the M16A2 and M885 ammunition. The M16A1 was a victim (and so were many grunts) of the ordnance geeks changing the ammunition it was fielded with from the ammo it was tested with, messing with the cyclic rate, etc.

The M16A2 w/M885 ammunition is good to go.

As far as the number of rounds/kill this is a function of every PFC in the battalion having a fully automatic weapon when the M16 came out vs 80% of the grunts having semi auto-weapons when armed with the M1 and M14. Add to this the fact that this figure is for ALL SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION in the war and take in to account all of the M60's and miniguns that churned out tons of bullets off of gunship platforms.

It is also a result of the Army failing in its efforts to teach marksmanship and the resulting lack of confidence in soldiers to aim and fire.

THats how I feel about it.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 01:04:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.156)

Kent has hit it right on the head. If the AK is so darned hot, why doesn't anybody in this country build hotshot varmint, National Match, or long-distance competition and sniper guns based on its action? If you need a blunt ax to teach a guerilla that every time he pulls the trigger it goes bang, hand him an AK, M1, or Mauser 98 -- they'll always work, even after six weeks in a rice paddy.

The United States Special Operations Command was finally able to outfit nearly the entire force with the M4A1 -- years after Special Forces started carrying it in Vietnam in 1967 as the CAR-15 (XM177). This was only because the Marines financed getting it type-classified in 1983 (and then, we only had the money to buy them in 1993!).

If I'm not mistaken, one of today's young Marines shot the M4 Carbine at LeJeune -- and set a base qualification record (200, 300, and 500 yards).

Here's a poem reproduced from an old (circa 1975) US Army Marksmanship Unit Service Rifle Marksmanship Guide:

"The Man with the Rifle"

Men may argue forever on what wins their wars,
and welter in cons and pros,
and seek for their answer at history's doors,
but the man with the rifle knows.

He must stand on the ground on his own two feet,
and he's never in doubt when it's won.
And if it's won he's there; if he's not, it's defeat.
That's his test, when the fighting is done.

When he carries the fight, it's not with a roar
of armored wings spitting death.
He creeps and crawls on the earthen floor,
butt down and holding his breath.

Saving his strength for the last low rush,
grenade throw and bayonet thrust;
and the whispered prayer, before he goes in,
of a man who does what he must.

And when he's attacked, he can't zoom away,
when the shells fill the world with their sound,
he stays where he is, loosens his spade,
and digs his defense in the ground.

That ground isn't ours till he's there in the flesh.
Not a gadget, nor bomb, but a man.
He's the answer to theories which start afresh,
with each peace since war began.

So let the wild circle of argument range
on what wins, as war comes and goes.
Many new theories may hold the stage,
but the man with the rifle KNOWS.

(Breathe-Relax-Aim-Slack-Squeeze...X, target down!)

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, where I counted a dozen road-killed deer today, Virginia, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 02:50:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Thanks to those who had anything to do with the new hyperspeed of the site. It's GGGGRRRReat!
Now we can get back to some good stuff like another debate......
How about sheepies vs. llamas?
Bolt <reeldoc@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 04:05:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.41.192)
I posted a question a few days ago re: heavy high BC bullets vs lighter lower bc bullets at higher velocity. There has to be someone out there with experience willing to share. My ballistic program shows that 168 mk's at 3200 shoot some 50" flatter at 1000 yards than 200 mk's at 2800 from a .300 win mag. These are achievable velocities. I have always heard and believed that the heavier high BC bullets were better for long range shooting. Anybody having practical experience with both bullets at long range please comment. Actually my program shows the 175 mk superior to both with a mv of 3200.(less wind drift than the 200's and flatter than the 168's.)

I'm still trying to work a really good all around load for the .300 win mag, and could use help in settling on bullet choice.

Thanks

Pat T
Pat T <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 05:23:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

First and foremost...

Ken, thank you very much for putting the dylithium crystals back in and making this site into one with warp drive again. I did my usual, (started to load the site, opened a new browser window to 'wait') and before I had a chance to key in a new URL SC had already loaded.. aint been like that for a few weeks! Thanks very much and I know others appreciate it too!

Off topic: Any of you service folks out there interested in helping me identify something? Direct your browsers to this page. On said page there is a picture of a bag/cover I have. It is marked, "Cover, Cradle, M1 - Fungus Proofed Type 1 - Central Engineering Co. - 1945" Any idea what it once was used for? My wife thought it might have something to do with the M1 Garand and picked it up... The photos on that page can be clicked to see larger images.

Wana shed some light on this mystery?

JT - Webmaster to the stars! (Well 2 of em anyhow) <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 06:12:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Or as Kipling put it.

"And when your bullets go wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch
Shes as human as you so treat her as sich.
And go to your front like a soldier."

Or words to that effect. Can't find my Kipling collection right now.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 06:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.145)

If you are in the Bay Area they are just about to air and "expose" about the ".50 cal Sniper Rifle" on KTVU (channel 2).

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 06:28:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

AK vs. AR

There is NO doubt that the AR is the most accurate and ergonomic of these two rifles. I will not argue against that. Also the 223 ammo flies flatter and farther than 7.62x39 ammo.

When we start to discuss about reliability and overall toughness, then AR loses big time. You field strip an AK and you have parts that are hard to lose even in the woods because they are so big. When you field strip the bolt of an AR, you have hard time not to lose some them inside your study. I think the pin that keeps the bolt and all parts together looks like something the designer found on the floor in a scrapyard automobile.

Also AR require constant cleaning (i.e at least daily), this is fine for special operators like SAS, Delta, Seals and the like. For normal grunts this is probably a little too much. Of course they will learn when they lose a few buddies due to imporper or lack of cleaning, but we can not afford to lose soldiers just because we have a weapon in use that was designed more or less in laboratory environment.

I have used Valmet Rk62 in the Finnish military and with Lapua ball ammo it never jammed. I did keep the weapon clean, but I never heard that jams had been common to this rifle. With open sight it is 150 meter head shot -rifle, given a good shooter, of course. Out to 300 meters you can get constant body hits. With an AR you can shoot even farther and it probably is better, this way you have more time to clear jams :-) In Finland our geography is such that there are not many situations where we could shoot out to 400 meters. Here 7.62X39 works good enough. I admit that I would like to have a Sako Rk95 in 5.56X45. These has been made in prototype stage, but the production is halted at this time.

In any case I think a South African R4 or Galil in 5.56 is the best way to go. Why did Israelis choose M4A1 for their special forces then ? A) Because if properly maintained it IS a good rifle and B) the Israel Army gets them probably for free from the US Government !! I would also choose a pretty good rifle that does not cost me anything extra. At least this is what I have understood to be the case with ARīs in the Israeli army. Israel is not a wealthy nation and they gladly accpet free weapons from the US. USG gives several billions of dollars in weaponry every year to Israel so that they can act as a "Western Police" in Middle-East.

BTW Sig 550 is a very good rifle, probably the best there is and it uses also a Kalashnikov-gas system. I think the Swiss took this way because they felt it is more reliable.

Maybe I went a bit far from them orginal subject, where it was Bushmaster/Colt AR semiauto vs. Norinco/Eastern European AK semi-auto. If you want an accurate target rifle, then buy an accurized AR. If you want a simple, reliable, tough and not-that-accurate battle instrument, I would suggest a Valmet, Galil or Sig 550 (accuracy is very good for the Sig, though).

Norincos and the like are what you buy if you do not have money for something better. I understand that in the US the cost issue is very severe in assault rifles. Then I would take an AK-rifle with 10 mags and maybe 1-2000 rounds over any AR-rifle. You just get more bang for the buck with AKīs.

Take care.

BTW here I could buy 4 or 5 NIB Norincos with 3 mags a piece plus cleaning gear for just one Colt AR-15 NIB. 7.62x39 ammo is also here much cheaper than 5.56 ammo.
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 07:35:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

From JC's website:-)

We were delighted recently with an anecdote reported to us by member Sam Mantooth. It seems that
a Finnish veteran of the Russian war was being interviewed about his experiences of those days.

Q: "You saw a lot of infantry action?"
A: "Much."

Q: "Did you ever engage in a fire fight?"
A: "Often."

Q: "Did you ever have occasion to shoot at a human being?"
A: "Yes, several times."

Q: "Did you find this difficult."
A: "Yes. You see they tended to duck, to get behind cover, and to run in zigzag."
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 08:43:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

TorF in Norway,
Your email address isn't working.

Where is JC's website?

Thanks, Paul
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
CO, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 09:42:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.186.125.24)

Well decided what to do on the AR/AK thing if the shit hits the fan. Gonna carry and Rem 870! No jambs, good spread, and racking it scares shit out of most bad guys.

The debate has been interesting to say the least. Now I know why people want to be sniper type dudes. They get to carry bolt guns.

Maybe a good way to avoid the jamb thing with the AR's is to carry disposable uppers. Jamb it, remove it and replace it.

Semi's for self defense have always concerned me anyway. Some of the older timers on the WSPD (including my old man) used to tell me if you haven't got him down in 6, 4 more won't help. Fire control!

Need the new Ghillie designs. Heard they may be featured in the new Victoria Secret catalog. Come on SGT. Cox, hand over the pictures!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 13:03:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.147.198)

Rolling on the floor laughing my AR loving ass off!
Disposable uppers! Well, I guess while you are removing the upper you can use it as a blunt object also. You could have yourself one mean and expensive billy club there. Thank you for giving this night owl a real hoot!
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield, Pinko Hell California, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 13:53:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.167)
When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck,
Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck,
Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck
And march to your front like a soldier.
Front, front, front like a soldier...

When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;
She's human as you are-you treat her as sich,
An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.
Fight, fight, fight for the soldier...

<skip to the payoff>

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,....

Kipling
The Young British Soldier
Barrack-Room Ballads

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 14:46:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.35)

I would be genuinely interested in knowing, exactly, why the myth about the AR needing constant cleaning has lived so long. This thing started, as stated before, because of the incorrect ammo issued in Nam. The problem was fixed but the stories carried on, taking on a life of their own. Believe me when I say I helped spread them in my youth because I read all the same old outdated news that everyone did about the "dirty" M16. It reminds me of the "tumbling bullet" issue. Another myth. In grade school we were all abuzz about how the M16 left massive wounds because we were told by a teacher who was a vet, that the bullet tumbled IN FLIGHT and when it hit a guy in his stomach it sometimes came out the back of his neck. Impressive stuff to an eight grader! (sensitivities were obviously different back then) But it was based on a total fiction. The 5.56 bullet fired from a 1:12 twist barrel is easily upset upon hitting something. But it is stable in flight. In a human body it would upset easily and change direction, "tumbling" if you will. The wounds had nothing to do with its flight characteristics and everything to do with its terminal ballistics. But the myth of the tumbling bullet still lives today! I hear it at least once one the range every year.

Is the cleaning issue any different? How much of this is left over hash from the early days of the M16s introduction? I'd wager a lot.

We need to define "constant cleaning." Once a day? Once every three days? Between firefights? Between major engagements lasting days on end? I have gone literally hundreds of rounds with out cleaning. In the Army we cleaned aggressively, but it was more a function of giving the troops something to do when nothing else was available. We had a LOT of down time. Hell, they made us clean the damn things even when they were not dirty. Kind of like digging a trench just to fill it in. At any rate, even in competition, I have gone three or so matches with out cleaning. That's about 264 rounds. If the rifle was so sensitive to powder fouling when used with the proper powder, it would have failed every match. Of course, the point will be made, a match is not combat or hard training. True. But if the rifle is sensitive to Fouling with its accepted powder, it would have went tits up by match two. I also recall firing an M16 till the gas tube literally glowed white. We are talking way past red. I hate to think of what we did to the accuracy of the rifle, but it just kept shooting. I am talking 10 magazines here, on full auto. Don't ask. Lets just say my SGT was not amused.

The only time I saw an AR fail in a match was when the guy next to me decided he'd help his odds by shooting hot loads. We're talk well past SAMMI specs. After about 8 rounds the thing locked up tight. Turns out the case puffed up like a balloon and wedged solid in the chamber. We manager to clear the thing and he finished the match with borrowed ammo.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 14:57:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

I am not saying the AK is not a kick butt little rifle either. It serves its design purpose well. I just do not think it is as superior as people make it out to be. Grass is greener has some lay here. Sure, the AK is a hammer. But it is not more lethal and it is certainly way more uncomfortable to fire. Ever try shooting one on rock and roll? You WILL burn your hands. Period. At least with no protection on the foregrip. Ever let one sit for a week with out cleaning it after shooting its ISSUED ammo? It becomes a rust bucket like everything else. Even the chrome will rust. Or pit. What ever you call it. Still shoots though, I'll give you that! Jungle war? Kiss the wood stock goodbye. It'll rot away. Ask the VC. Many wood stocked rifles found on their bodies had no stock, or a worm eaten stock, or a crumbling rotted stock on 'em. With the AR you at least HAD a stock all the time until you chose to break it. How about using the AK as a club? You think that little buttstock doesn't break? Got news for you. It does. Will it fire afterward? Sure will. But the thing is not invincible.
Just to take the argument (which by the way IS quite entertaining and I hope you all are enjoying it too) a bit further: I really had a blast with my Norinco AK-S. But I got rid of it as soon as I realized the potential of the AR. The AR out-shot the AK, felt better doing it, didn't burn me every time I fired more than 50 rounds through it, cleaning was, I thought EASIER, it was not slippery when hot, had much better sights and a REAL sight radius, was lighter and was easier to carry with more ammo. And for you survivalists types, which ammo are you going to find in abundance come your so-called revolution? It ain't going to be 7.62x39. Least not if Clinton gets his way. And since varmint hunting was mentioned, I'll have to make a point: Try hitting said coyote with a stock AK at 350 yards. You ain't gonna do it. Not with one round anyway. I will give you this though, if you get close enough, you can club the living crap outta that coyote with the AK mag. That thing is a real hammer! But one the inverse, it ain't fun to lug a combat load of six AK mags around with all the rest of your TA-50. That crap is not light. I have had some bad AR mags. But they Disappeared as soon as I could "lose" them.

The Valmet and Galil? Excellent weapons to be sure. Purpose designed for their locales. I want one of each. But are they superior to the AR? Doubt it. Fact is, no rifle, be it AK, HK, AR or what not, can claim to be all that superior to any other. They all serve their purposes well. And did I ever have to worry about punching my way out of a HMMWV with my "flimsy" M16? Shit no. That is why we had a Fire Extinguisher in the truck! Or an ET, or the frigging PRC-77. There are plenty of blunt objects for this sort of chore, only a nut would use his rifle, not matter what it is, if something else was available! :-)

Hmmm…starting to think I might really be back!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 15:07:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Scott...

Welcome back, Dude!

Ken...

... thanks for the new hardware! I was gettin' into the habit of hittin' "reload", and then goin' out for breakfast! ;)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 15:30:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.19)

Ken, Thanks it's really nice to watch the site come up so quick again...
Mike <Mikeroyexc@aol.com>
Florence, MT, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 16:12:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.76)
Heck, If I was EVER trapped in a Hum-Vee, I'd use Al O's thick head to knock out all the windows even if they were down..... LMAO!
Where ya at you "pointy end in" Fly-Boy?

Ken,
Thanks for the return to "Normalcy" for S/C

Gooch, Rick Bowcher, Rod, Dave Liwanag, and anybody else:
Have youse'all ever during active duty/combat ever had an M-16A2 jam up where it could not be cleared is less than twenty seconds????

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 16:37:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.23)

Ken,

Thanks for getting things back to normal.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The, keep your head down it's deer season, Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 17:17:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.196)

I have to agree with the AR crowd. Over all its a damn good combat weapon and has been proven all over the world in a lot of differnt little wars. So has the AK, so its just a matter of choice. Speaking of a matter of choice I see the SEALs like the M-14s maybe its the best of both worlds, accuracy, reliability and knock down power. I understand it to be and updated version of the "Best battle rifle ever built", Gee I wonder why we ever changed??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 17:27:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Bill R,
I almost forgot to take a shot at you(HA) I would have to also disagree that the .223 is a poor fox or coyote round. I would just about bet you that there have been more varmints(Both two and 4 legged) killed with the .223 than any other round. Just my opinion!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 17:34:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
What rings to use?

I am putting a Leupold Vari-X III Tactical on a Springfield M1A using the Springfield 3rd generation mount. I don't plan on much if any long range shooting with this set up. I was planning on using Leopold cross slot rings (not Mark 4's), is this a mistake?

I know very little about rings. Any information or opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

JamesB <jbarrier@juno.com>
WA, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 18:32:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.82.215.2)

Aye; but Pat my man, I use the .223 almost exclusively on the buggars.
It's the Jammin little AR blighters I gave up on u know! I kept wantin the thing to go off twice without a trip to the shop.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 18:38:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Pat: have to agree 100%. The M-14 is the best of ALL worlds when it comes to battle rifles. I will give the concession that the HK and FAL are REALLY great rifles, but I stick by my choice, the '14. People can discuss the ranges of the AK/AR, but the '14 puts 'em all in their place. Mine wears the synthetic stock, so I don't have to worry about wood warpage, rot, POA shift when wet, etc. You figure there's a reason the SEALS carry that thing? Durring one lecture I was giving, I was stating the bonuses of the '14 over the '16. A captain correctly stated that when humping it, you would feel the extra pound, plus ammo weight difference. Yeah, that's right. Guess you would. SO WHAT? I felt the weight of the E-tool too, but carried that thing. When your necks on the line.....
And the stated "ammo supply problem" goes away completely when you step up to this one. Ever go into a sporting goods store that doesn't have a 308?
Just my two cents worth....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 18:47:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)
Have to agree with Bravo on the weight is not so important issue. Hell, try humping an SWS all over creation and back and you know what I mean. Ammo count on the other hand...well, there is where the "new fangled" cartridges are kind of nice. Carry 120 rounds of 5.56 ain't nothing but a thang. The AK is a bit heavier, but you still can carry a fair amount. The M14 now. Well, that is a different story. Six 20 round mags git a bit on the hefty side.

Question: what is the combat load (ammo) for a SEAL with the M14? Kind of curios. I understand they want the rifle for the range. But do they not also carry an M4 varient?

Old Dawg...you need to let me work on your ARs if they are giving you that much grief. I can usually fix any problem given enough time to figure it out. There are pretty straight forward. Drop me a line sometime and describe the neture of the jam. I can probably talk you through it.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 19:18:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

To all that I was corresponding with by e-mail, I am not ignoring you I have lost all of my e-mail addresses and all of my e-mails so to all that I have not answered your questions or whatever yet please e-mail me again and if this computer does not break down again I will answer you.
"I HATE COMPUTERS"

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 19:21:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.193.59)

Bet you all missed my creative TYPOS too!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 19:23:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)
Pat,
I'll take that bet about more varmints (2 and 4)legged being taken with the .223 than with any other round.

My $ is on the '.06, or maybe the 7 mauser.

The myth of the AR jamming wasn't a myth to those of us who carried worn-out courpses of A1s in the hollow force of the late '70s. No one could keep them working. I don't know how much stock to put in the theory that the carbon from the billions of blanks screwed up the pressure through the gas tube. This was pre A2/SS109. These rifles were lubed with LSA and clean beyond all reason.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 20:21:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.92)

Scott: Appreciate the offer, but I think you got the wrong guy. I have been watching a little of the AR/AK debate, but not joining in.

Jams on the AR? I have heard tell of it, but thank goodness B. Wylde knows how to build 'em, and coyotes here haven't been told the round ain't big enough:) 3 in the last couple of weeks [is season in?], 2 fell to Wylde's machine, the other to a 308 that MikeM sent out here in trade for a date with a friend's bucktooth'd sister. MikeM would kill me if he found out the killing was done with a 110 grainer outta that fine piece, and Bill would surely be ashamed to know I don't clean the AR regularly. But, they would both appreciate that I am having fun, I hope.

Old Dog [presently hiding from the CO's]

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
undisclosed, location, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 22:40:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

AR Serie's,

In all the talk going on,their is no mention of a problem that I have seen on many M-16 serie's weapon's( I like the serie's generally).The problem area I am talking about is the sloop and play between the 2 alloy receiver's,upper and lower,the steel takedown pin's seem very good at excessively wearing the takedown pin hole's in the alloy component's.And over time the play and sloop can become so excessive as to make the gun unservicable.
This is a problem,as a company make's a little plastic wedge to jam into your gun too take the play out of it.
Has any one else had similar problem's?

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 22:41:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.169)

Scott; I think you may have temporarily confused me with Bruce(old dog). I wondered why he hadn't spoken but the issue wasn't with a Bill Wylde rifle (dog has one). It was I thought the issue M-16 and AR-15 factory models. The .223 as fired in a reliable weapon is not an issue with me although it has been discussed in Varminter circles. I use it exclusively on Varmints. Just as a matter of personal preference. My problems with AR's/M-16's could be traced at times to Ammo as someone pointed out. The main objection I have is that if that darn thing gets jammed at all with a round and sometimes it's a hot one it's a real problem to clear it in the field. As was the case in the "Battle of the sand dunes." It can be made to fire in proper conditions but a good battle rifle needs to be relitively easy to recover from jams of any kind. Take a slightly swelled AR-15 load and put in the clip and fire it. Or better yet don't. Your in for some trouble. Be sure it's not hot if you do intend to try this. In battle conditions a round can be bent or mashed in such a manner to cause a terrible jam. It just doesn't happen with the M-14 type or the HK's or at least I never had it happen.
Chris'; There is a problem like you mention but I didn't bring it up.
Another one is that a tight sling can change the impact point as you can literally bend this rifle off target. And it's quite easy to do so.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 22:58:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
To all,

Just to catch everyone up on my barrel fouling problem and to let know about a company who stands by their product and workmanship.

The great folks a Shilen Barrel company lapped out the copper fouling in my barrel and said that should take care of my barrel-fouling problem. In the process, one of the workers dropped my barreled action and destroyed one of the scope rings that was custom made for my rifle. Doug Shilen said he would pay for a new set of rings. My rifle now wears a new set of Badger Ordinance rings on MWG two piece mounts. Cool!

At the range, I discovered the copper fouling problem was the same or worse and my accuracy had gone south. Again I called Doug and he couldn’t figure out what was wrong with the barrel and agreed to replace the barrel at no cost. Folks, you just can’t beat that kind of service. Remember Shilen Rifle Barrels the next time you’re in the rebarreling mood.

Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 23:24:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.41)

Well now, I truly enjoy stirring up the shit!

Have now set up 4 battle vests, patrol packs and ammo caches. One for the AR, one for the AK, one for the 870 and one for the PSS. Have hired 4 bigass lineman to hump them with a couple of sweet little multi-talented coeds to reload the mags and feed me ammo. I of course will be behind them with a friggin grenade hoping the pin won't jamb! With my luck if it was raining nookie, I'd catch one with a pecker in it.

You know, it must be tough going into battle with a weapon that you don't have confidence in. For years all I owned was a RRuu..rrruuuu..ggg (oh well you know what I'm talking about) 30-06, a Win 1200 12ga. and a 357 Model 19. I NEVER EVER questioned the fact that they would function properly every time I pulled the trigger.

Now I own an HK USP45, 2 AR's, an SA85 and 2 10/22's. Why the hell I bought them I don't know. Just to be politically correct I reckon. It sure appears to me like if you have to use a semi to defend yourself you best have a little angel sitting on your shoulder or a hockey load of other people with you to cover your ass. Me thinks I'm going to leave the semi's in the safe for posterity and investment and to shoot at things that don't shoot back. Humping 12ga ammo doesn't seem as bad as humping ammo for something that is so finicky you have to powder it's ass everyday.

Change my mind.

Oh by the way, time to recamo to winter time colors. Bought more brown and khaki today. At this rate, I'll have an 1" of paint on the damn thing.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 23:40:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.147.148)

Firstly i would like to commend you on your fine website it has brought many new ideas to mind along with some of the fundamentals that are sometimes forgotten. Currently i am not in the sniper industry, but with a Recon unit which focus very closely to the same principles of movement, camouflage and patrolling techniques; hopefully when i lead my own team in the near future this will be developed even more. A small question is about navigational aids and range meters; i have been looking throughout Victoria, Australia, and the options are limited when it comes to good strong reliable equipment; if you have a way of hooking me up with people in that field it would be greatly appreciated whether it be from America or Australia. Keep up the good work.

OUT.
Nigel Hill <Nige102@hotmail.com>
Melbourne, Vic, Aust - Monday, November 15, 1999 at 23:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 210.84.128.13)

Does anyone know what happened to the LOD website (in the Hot Links section). It keeps saying "website doesn't exist." Did Mr. Martin go out of business? Also, does anyone have any experience with DS arms' FAL rifles, I'm trying to figure which is better one of those, one of the Entreprise STG's or the G3's with the scope rail on the U.S made receiver. Any comments?
Thanks.
P.S. Holy Shucking Fit is this site fast now...hot damn!!

Rich <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 00:30:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.181)

As long as everyone is still commenting about ARs...

What about magazines?
Any brands / manufacturers you can recommend?
How much can a new, green, follower help ...or did I just open a can O' worms regarding what can go wrong with M-16 mags?

About RRuu..rrruuuu..ggg (You Know-Mini somthin' or other)...

I remember seeing an old article commenting about the
RRuu..rrruuuu..ggg tearing off case heads.
I regret I don't recall the author or publication offhand;
I'd have to check my archives.
Any experiences with that happening?

Ken-
Would you be willing to say how much you're payin' for the
honor of sharing the router(s)?
My POB is using a Proxy with Wingate software.
Can't get DSL yet... got a loop in the lines,
puts us over the limit on distance.

Utgardaloki

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 00:45:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

I've just got to comment on this AR/AK thing. I think the AR is one of the finest battle rifles of all times. I cant understand all of the comments on reliability or lack there of. The one big thing that we have get clear is the difference between the full auto military guns and the semi auto civilian models. I am a former Marine with a little experience with the M16A2 and I never had a problem with reliability in any mode of fire, three round burst or semi auto. Even firing hundreds of blanks in a day I never had a problem. I can see how a shot out M16-A1-A2 can give someone a bad impression. However nearly any full auto gun if not maintained properly and taken care of can get to be that way. Now on the AR. I resisted buying one for a while after I got out, but after seeing so many happy AR owners I bit the bullet and forked out the dinero. I have never been so pleased with a rifle as with my newer production Bushmaster. The rifle is perfectly reliable, occasionaly you get a crappy magazine that causes a small problem, like not locking the bolt open on the last round. As for the occasional malfunction that all semi autos have, the AR is sooo easy to clear. The aformentioned stuck cartridge is not really a concern in the semi auto AR anyway. I have worked on 2 public ranges and have never seen one. Overall for civilian use I feel like the AR is #1. On the AK or MAK or ROMAK make sure that you keep your screwdriver handy to tighten the stock every 100 rounds or so. Com-block crap all of them. On the HK and SIG and Galil great if you can find them and AFFORD them. Anyway I guess I have vented enough. If you don't like the M16/AR15 type weapons system maybe you have never owned a quality example of one.
John <cuzbone1@aol.com>
Selma, NC, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 00:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.24)
Utgardaloki;
ar15.com then magazines then magazine information
This is the best info on AR mags.

John <cuzbone1@aol.com>
Selma, NC, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 00:57:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.32)

Fast Downloads!
Thanks to all involved.

As Graham Kerr used to say, SOOOPAH!
(I guess that was before your time)

Utgardaloki
You know where....

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 00:58:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Rich;
Those DS arms FNs are probably better than the origionals. Every one that I have ever seen has been top notch. Fit and finish is wonderfull. They should functionas good or better than any FN ever made and they are known for their reliability. That why they are known as the "right arm of the free world." I had a Cheap old Century Arms FN and it functioned fine but the fit and finsh was poor. As for comparing it to the HK. I have never owned an HK but have shot a couple. They are certainly fine weapons, but I think I would stay away from those parts guns because most of them are made from shot out G3s. From what I understand the G3 is atleast partially based on the FN anyway. Go for the DS arms.
John <cuzbone1@aol.com>
Selma, nc, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 01:10:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.32)
Gentlemen
I'm looking for accurate 3006 loads. I have a Mauser Mk 10 action,mated to a Douglas 28" bull barrel with a 1 in 10 twist. I have
been shooting Federal premium 165btsp. I have not been able to get better than .50 moa. The rifle is a hefty 17 lbs. I want to try federal match 168grs. Or some of the sierra match bullets. Do you think a heavier 180 gr or more would be better with the 1 in 10 twist.
My goal is .25 or less. Your ideas would be helpful.

Thanks Andrew Baker

Andrew Baker <jbaker@pinn.net>
Norfolk, Va, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 01:54:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.226.97.3)

Ken: Thanks!!

Scott: Welcome back (if you're back)!!

PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, Mo, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 02:15:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.163)

Wind speed measurements;
Who uses an anemometer or thermo-anemometer.Got Grainger sale flyer today with a pocket thermo-anemometer also measures humidity and I think dew point for $84 seems like it would be handy and is reasonable.The Kestrel 2000 also looks to be a good unit at a very reasonable price.

Thanks Ken,I didn't think when I said if it took 20 minutes to load The Roster that I would still read it daily that you would take me serious.In the future just assume I'm joking :)
Bruce E. <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 02:48:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.214)

On the subject of A-R's. Any of you gents have any experience with Colt's CAR (Colt Accurized Rifle, flat-top with 24" stainless barrel). I've had one rigged up with Springfield's 4-14x40 Tactical Govt. 5.56mm scope which is calibrated to Sierra's 69gr. Match bullet out to 700 meters plus incredibly accurate rangefinding capability to that range. I've been shooting it for about 3 years now and cannot imagine a finer/faster shooting package. I especially enjoy engaging steel plates (of known size)with this rifle. I range the target and send a 69 grainer in seconds. It's hard to miss with this system. Varmints beware! I was skeptical at first about the scope, but Springfield Armory did a heck of a job with it. The crosshairs are calibrated perfectly. Anyone agree/disagree?
dan <danr@acnet.net>
s. texas, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 02:52:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.42.37)
Bruce E.

I use the Kestrel, and it's a slick little unit. In one of his films M/SGT Jim Owens says they tested the little $12 job you get from midway against the kestrel, and the midway works just as well. Plus the midway uses no batteries, no precision parts, and is water proof. I have great respect for anyone with M/SGT Owens experience, but it's heresay to me.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 03:01:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.6)

Also, does anyone have any experience with DS arms' FAL
rifles, I'm trying to figure which is better one of those, one of the Entreprise STG's or the G3's with the scope rail
on the U.S made receiver. Any comments?

Run, dont walk from those G3 wannabees with the cast aluminum recievers with the rails on top. Mags cost a fortune too. Go with an FAL pattern, DSA's being the cream of the crop, as good or better than a real FN. Mags are under $10 too. DSA's recievers are machined to better tolerances than Enterprises, Hess products have a pretty poor reputation. Go with the DSA, you wont be dissapointed.

What about magazines?
Any brands / manufacturers you can recommend?

Government contracto mags. Aluminum bodies, manufactured by many contractors including Parsons, O-kay, Sanches, Adventure line, Labelle, Center Industries, and probaly some others I cant remember. Green Followers are better then the Black ones. The 20 rounders with the aluminum follower are probaly the best AR mag ever made. Just stay away from the POS steel mags like USA, Triple K, etc. Have heard good things about Thermolds but have no experience with them.

How much can a new, green, follower help ...or did I just open a can O' worms regarding what can go wrong with
M-16 mags?

Sure can't hurt and are cheap. I use them when ever I rebuild a mag.
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 06:26:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.167)

John,

With all due respect, I don't think the G3 and FAL have much in common. G3 is a retarded blowback, roller-locked action, based on an old Spanish design (CETME). FAL is a gas-operated, tilting-block design, with the op rod above the barrel like an AR 18. By the way, rumor had it that Stoner designed the AR 18 to eliminate the problems associated with the exhaust into the chamber area that the AR15/M16 experienced. Comments, anyone?

Personally, I wouldn't trade my FAL for 100 of anything else.

To all:

The Hathcock match at SMTC was the most enjoyable weekend I've had in years.

To Rod, Gooch, Dave, Mike, LeMay, Sullivan, Pete, Dave, Ken, Rick.......hell, the list goes on and on...........many thanks for the hospitality and comraderie. All whom I met are welcome to a beer or twelve on me if you ever find yourself in NM. You're gentlemen all. Even Gooch.

Lemay: You alive? Photos?
Bruce Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 06:59:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.122.81)

With regards to the bad ammo issue in the AR-15, ever have a blown primer with one of these? Get a primer wedged under the trigger group and you will be taking the gun apart at the worst time no matter what you are shooting at. Even worse in my opinion is when the primer is stuck just outside of the chamber in the area of the locking lugs in the breech collar area. Reason for this being that the bolt won't lock up after it has crushed the primer into the breach area, now you can't take the damn rifle apart and you are completely SOL till you find out where the primer is stuck and you find something to pry the little turd out of there.

I had no problems shooting my AR-15s for almost 6 months and maybe 700 rounds through both rifles. Then I got my hands on a bad lot of Winchester white box ammo. I believe this is the sub-contracted stuff that was coming from overseas and even Winchester has admitted there are problems with the ammo. I bought 200 rounds of the ammo and out of that batch I had experienced a blown primer or a misfeed about once every 15 rounds. Absolutely the worst ammo I've ever laid my hands on. Glad I tried the ammo before I used it for anything other than shooting just targets. With my PMC fodder that I use I'd be lying if I said I've had no problems what so ever with the ammo or the guns. My problems however where only magazine related and they were very simply cured with green followers after finding that I was having bolt overs on the 28th round. Since then I've made sure to rotate through my collection of mags to make sure that all function. I can safely say that my two Bushmasters each have had 1000 plus rounds put through them in the past year with the only stoppages due to the Wichester Crap Box Ammo and a batch of 4 mags that needed new followers. The South African ammo has raised my interest and I'll try out a sample batch of maybe 400 rounds of it soon.

My other two ARs are a AR15 custom that clocks in at 17 pounds and a AR10 that is getting it's bolt replaced by Armalite under a warranty covered recall. The AR10 is my most finiky rifle and works best on reloads but shhh don't tell Armalite it will void the warranty. The custom AR15 is my primary gun used because it's a tack driver and is perfectly suited for chasing ground squirrels in my infested ranching farming town. Popping squirrels with a rock solid stable semi auto platform is where the action is. BRING IT ON!
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Bakersfield, California, home of the liberal, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 07:49:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.185)

Just a quick question.

Does anyone know which agencies or governments, U.S. or otherwise, use the SR90 in their arsenals or TO&E? Thanks.
Ralf <sledghamr@aol.com>
Sea, WA, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 07:57:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.23.205.110)

Greetings from the land of sheet steel stamping and tig welding !

Haveing had the pleasure to lug around a G-3A3 since 1983 I can only say that I HAVE NEVER had a G-3 jam on me with live ammo, be it in Winter, or in the Mud and Clay in the summer time. Magazines ? never had a Mag related problem with one ether.
However the blank adapter for the G-3 never really worked well and the od green plastic blanks caused lots of stoppages and jamīs. I guess in training that is OK and teaches you to get rid of the problem fast. But in live fire, never had a problem with it.

We did some shooting with US troops here and always liked the idea of recyling soda cans, B 17īs and I guess one or two Messerschmidt 109īs into Battle rifle receivers! *duck and cover*

The AR is a good rifle design I am sure, and I have one myself so turn of the heat, at the time it was designed it was as revolutionary as our new "Mattell Barbie G 36" wich, BTW will melt when you lean it against a hot exhaust.

Every gun has its time, and I think we have to be open minded for new developments, but always remember that the rifle is only a tool to do a job. And that it will always be just as powerful as the hopefully well trained individuall pulling the trigger.

"Ende"
Torsten <Torsten.Erning@t-online.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 09:28:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.119)

AR-18 and AR-15

I think AR-18 was mostly developed for third world countries, that could not produce good alloy forgings and other high precision parts that are needed in a AR-15. Unfortunately AR-18 never "made it" and is unfortunately today mostly known as IRAīs weapon of choice.

AR-18īs gas system looks to me superior when compared to AR-15. It was also chosen for HK G36, so it can not be that bad.

Melting guns:
I think a Steyr AUG would melt too against a exhaust pipe, and the stocks of G3 and M-16 could melt too. Of course I would prefer to have non-melting guns, but then we are talking about metals that corrode, rost and weigh a ton. FN FAL does not melt, at least as long as itīs buttstock is made of wood or is the metal tube version from the Paratrooper version.

Another possibly good weapon: SAR 80
This a hybrid of AR-15 and AR-18 from Singapore. It uses AR-15 mags and forged trigger parts, its gas system is straight out of AR-18. These rifles in used, but good condition cost here in Finland around 500 USD. A new Bushmaster costs here around 1000 USD and a civilian AR-15 from Colt costs more than 1200 USD. I know that these rifles will never be available in the US and that is too bad, but these seem to be quite decent rifles in the 5.56 calibre. I just may buy one sooner or later just for fun.

As many have already said, there is NO superior weapon, it is the person using it that makes the real difference. Still it is always nice to discuss these things, as everybody tends to have strong opinions about these matters.

Take care

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 10:49:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Chris in NZ: The "plastic wedge" is an aftermarket accessory called an Accu-Wedge (TM). I find that they are usefull for eliminating a small amount of play. However they are not the miracle cure for a badly mis-matched upper and lower.

Ken: Thank you for the bandwith... It's like a hot shower after a week in the bush.

Torsten: I think that bringing the G3 into this thread is cheating. The G3 is a main battle rifle, while the AR/AK's are assault carbines.
I've fired them all, and own Colt's and HK's and just have to say that this is an apples to oranges comparison. Now as you probably already know the HK33 (G3 in 5.56mm), that will whip either of these rifles up and down the street. It's as accurate as an AR15, has the reliability of AK47, and has all the accessories that an M16 carries. The only downsides for civvies here in the states are the lack of availability, and HK's penchant for destroying brass (small price to pay for what you get).

  • Now the real question is what do you all think about the push to replace the M16 with the new HK G36?

    •  

     

    ALL: Finally has anyone played with the Bushnell Yardage Pro Compact 800? I found it for a low price and just want to make sure it performs similarly to the full size 800. (Click here if interested in deal)

    [OUT]

    Colin Falstaff <thermoptic@hotmail.com>
    Socalist Republik of, Kalifornia, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 12:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.59.12.103)

    One the White box Winchester 223......... Was it the 55gr, FMJ? If so, how do you tell the lot number. The Q3131 is on every white box I have but someone else said that this is not the lot number. There is a bar code number on the box.
    Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 14:27:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)
    Andrew B.
    Try Imr-4064 this was always a great accuracy load for me when I was shooting the 06.

    I'll probably catch hell for this but, ENOUGH!!! of the AR vs AK no one is going to change their minds anyway and everyone has their own opinion so lets move on to something else!!! Ducking for incoming.
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 14:47:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

    Colin,

    most exellent G36 Page !

    have not seen the SAW version or the 100rd drum mag in the Bundeswehr.

    We do have the G36 and the P8 now, I am just waiting for them to come up with a modern version of our MG 3 in polymer housing and with optical sights. What a burner that would be !!!!

    Question for you Full Auto SAW Gunners :

    following happend last time we shot our MG 3īs at the range.

    - Old guest shooting a 15 round belt.
    - upon the fire command nothing happend.
    - DI found weapon not properly cocked
    - Guest cocked again and pulled trigger
    - Loud Boom, and malfunction
    - the barrel change latch was bend severly
    - barrel was clear, but brass from case separation was stuck in
    chamber.
    - one round croumpled and with bullet pushed into case and burn marks
    was found under the MG with the bottom rest of the stuck round.

    let me hear what happend !

    I know its not " Full auto Country "

    Thanks

    t
    Torsten <Torsten.Erning@t-online.de>
    G36ermany - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 15:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.120)

    AR vs AK: My only complaint about the AR is that Silly Forward assit that allows the ignorant to create a major jam out of a minor one. The AR is a very flexible design from 9MM entry weapons to AR-10 Long Rangers.
    Rockie Gilley <rgilley@br-inc.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 15:16:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.86.84.34)
    Boltster; your catchin on quick. The semi is prone to trouble and should be avoided if you can. There are those who haven't had it kill them yet like John there who hasn't had a jam. John if you ever have a jam with a oversized cartridge, you will wonder how you were so lucky so long. True many problems are ammo problems but it is the inherient system that doesn't allow for these faults that is at fault.
    My thinking goes something likes this. (and by the way John I've had every variation of that gun both cheap and costly in pretty large numbers to test. Some are better and some are crap but I've also had cheap and high priced AK's and they all out functioned the AR/M-16s in every way. My theory is that if they are far enough away to need the accuracy there's no hurry anyway but if they are close you don't want the darn thing to quit on you even if its just a "little clip malfunction",. The U.S. government has had 30 years to correct this problem and still is at it. If Bill Wylde can make a competetive target gun and usable combat arm out of it there's proof it could have been fixed. My warning is don't take this thing back to war as it's issued or expect to have trouble. Thankfully some of our weapons work a little better than that and it isn't such a factor as it once was but there is no excuse for a inferior rifle in the U.S. Armed forces. Even the variants like the AR-10 and some of those others are troublesome for a lot of the same reasons.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 15:36:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
    Bolt, if you are the Bolt I'm thinking about from the AR15.com forums take a looksee at my email and you'll recognize my nickname probably. My experiences with the White Box Winchester are my own as far as I'm concerned. The batch I had was clearly problematic and I've heard and read the same thing from many different folks. The ammo in question was in fact white box and it was stamped like you had mentioned, Q3131 I believe. You could try going to the ar15.com page and looking through the ammunition topic of the forums. There is an active thread on the white box ammo that links to the original complaint thread from mid summer when folks started having trouble.
    B Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
    Bakersfield, from the peoples republic of Kalifornia, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 15:47:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.217.125)
    Torsten is right, but so is Colin. The G3 isn't a battle carbine, but it is quite excellent as a REAL rifle. One of my friends loves nothing else, and I've seen him "show off" with 200 rounds and a tube of crest tooth paste. Something no other rifle could do. The only problem with them in the US is they are SOOO expensive! By the way, I would personally steer away from the US aluminum receivered HK clones here.
    The DSA is a great system, well built and performs great. Go with that one! If it wasn't for the difficulty mounting a scope properly and the trigger pull, I would trade in my M1A on it, and that's saying something! As it lies, I give it a REALLY close 2nd place (tied with the HK).
    As for carbines, if I want something that fits the "light, short, and not a real rifle cartridge" I either go with a M1 Carbine or a Mini-14. The Mini is great, just after chucking the dog crap stock barrel. I've got an origional 180 series that just keeps on tink'in! The carbine is great, if you don't need to shoot more than shotgun range (or slightly more). AR or AK? why, there are better than both (and affordable!) out there.
    Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
    Cedar City, Utah, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 16:11:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)
    Andrew: Re: accurate 30-06 loads.
    I think your goals of a .25 MOA load in the 30-06 are a little unrealistic. .625 MOA sounds more like it. I have a couple of 98 custom Mausers one with a Douglas barrel the other with a Lothar Walther barrel as well as a few 03 Springfields. and the best loads I have found for them is the 180 Sierra matchkings, IMI brass, WW primers and Surplus 4895 powder. Still, I shoot .25 MOA only in my dreams. Another load I use is the Sierra 190 and a max load of IMR-4350 This load gives good accuracy and uniform velocity but a .25 MOA load it ain't.

    Steve <nato@bright.net>
    S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 17:11:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

    Guys,
    Check out this website, it's disturbing to say the least. I don't have time to create a hyper-link so just cut and paste. Its worth a look! http://www.goodbyeguns.org/index.html.
    Str8shot shaking his head sadly for the blind ones who want only the Govt/police to have firearms.
    Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
    South central, Mi, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 18:05:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.117.54.87)
    Need help on this one.....

    I have a 10x42 Hensoldt mounted on a SA NM M1A with TWG rings and a BPT mount. The problem I am having is that even with the scope's elevation adjusted all the way down, I am still 10" @ 100yds. What can I do?? A local gunsmith suggested using shims underneith the rear scope ring to lower the POI. I need help, as this doesnt seem like a good idea. Did I make a mistake in mounting it? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

    Thanks for any help,
    FNG

    FNG <glock96@hotmail.com>
    TX, - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 18:08:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.203.80)

    Guys,
    When you cut and paste the above url don't add the period behind html. Otherwise the page will not load. Sorry.
    Str8shot shaking his head about his computer illiteracy.
    Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
    In the heart of deer season, MI, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 18:16:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.117.54.87)
    I have recently acquired a Winchester M70 Laredo in .300 WinMag. While looking for a scope to mount on the new rifle, I was astonished at the wide range of available scopes. Most people I have talked to say to use a Leupold scope. But while comparitive shopping, I came across a Burris Black Diamond and was suprised at its clarity. Any pros/cons on the Burris unit would be appreciated.
    Any suggestions on rings or a base?
    Thanks.
    Jon <jsm4461@labs.tamu.edu>
    Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 19:33:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.194.53.98)
    FNG...

    As I recall... The BPT mount has a screw that attaches to a small block where the stripper clip adaptor was. Loosen the mount, and undo this screw. Put shims between this screw, and the threaded block.
    It will tilt the BPT mount forward, and solve the problem...
    Use aluminum soda can stock, you can cut it with a sewing scissors, and it will not damage the gun. You will probably need a total of about 20 to 25 thou.
    (Or you can lap the front ring down about 15 thou... ask the "Boltster Dude" for instructions...)

    Then tighten the small screw first, and then the main mount screw...

    Pablito.
    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 20:27:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.3)

    Sorry for the long post, but I thought this was really good.
    Blatantly plagiarized from Larry Clark at the Benchrest forum:

    1945 - Rifles were made of wood and steel, shot a .30 caliber bullet and killed the enemy. Now - Rifles are made of plastic and aluminum, shoot a .22 caliber bullet, and wound the enemy. 1945 - The winning side used a US made .45 caliber pistol. The losers used a European 9mm. Now - We use a European 9mm pistol. Nobody uses the .45. 1945 - If you smoked, you had an ashtray on your desk. Now - If you smoke, you are sent outside and are treated like a leper. 1945 - If you said "damn," people knew you were annoyed and avoided you. Now - If you say "damn" you better be talking about a hydroelectric plant. 1945 - NCO's had a typewriter on their desks for doing daily reports. Now - Everyone has an Internet computer, and they wonder why no work is getting done. 1945 - We painted pictures of pretty girls on airplanes to remind us of home. Now - We put the real thing in the cockpit. 1945 - Your girlfriend was at home, praying you would return alive. Now - She is in the same foxhole, praying your condom worked. 1945 - If you got drunk off duty, your buddies would take you back to the barracks to sleep it off. Now - If you get drunk any time they slap you in rehab and ruin your whole career. 1945 - You were taught to aim at your enemy and shoot him. Now - You spray 500 bullets into the brush, don't hit anything, and retreat because you are out of ammo. 1945 - Canteens were made out of steel. You could heat coffee or hot chocolate in them. Now - Canteens are made of plastic. You can't heat anything in them and they always taste like plastic. 1945 - Officers were professional soldiers first. They commanded respect. Now -
    Officers are politicians first. They beg not to be given a wedgie. 1945 - They collected enemy intelligence and analyzed it. Now - They collect our pee and analyze it. 1945 - If you don't act right, the commander might put you in the stockade till you straighten up. Now - If you don't act right, they start a paper trail that follows you
    forever. 1945 - Medals were awarded to heroes who saved lives at the risk of their own. Now - Medals are awarded to people who show up for work most of the time. 1945 - You sleep in a barracks, like a soldier. Now - You sleep in a dormitory, like a college kid. 1945 - You ate in a Mess Hall. It was free and you could have all the food you wanted. Now - You eat in a dining facility. Every slice of bread or pat of butter costs, and you can only have one. 1945 - We defeated powerful countries like Germany and Japan. Now - We can't even beat Iraq or Yugoslavia. 1945 - If you wanted to relax, you went to the Rec. Center, played pool, smoked and drank beer. Now - You go to the Community Center and can still play pool. 1945 - If you wanted a beer and conversation you could go to the NCO or Officers Club. Now - The
    beer will cost you $2.75, the membership is forced, and someone is watching how much you drink. 1945 - You could buy quartermaster gas tax free because it was on a military reservation. Now - AAFES charges you the tax but pockets the money themselves because it is on a military reservation. 1945 - The BX/PX had bargains for GI's who didn't make much money. Now - You can get better merchandise cheaper at Wal Mart. 1945 - We could recognize the enemy by their Nazi helmets. Now - We are wearing the Nazi helmets. 1945 - An old Chief would sit in his office with a cigar in his mouth. Now - He would be in less trouble if it was a penis. 1945 - We called the enemy things like "Krauts" and "Japs" because we didn't like them. Now - We call the enemy things like "opposing forces" and "aggressors" so we don't
    offend them. 1945 - Victory was declared when the enemy was dead and all his things were broken. Now - Victory is declared when the enemy says he is sorry. 1945 - If you killed an enemy soldier, you could bring home his rifle as a trophy. Now - If you bring home anything at all as a trophy you get a court martial. 1945 - A commander would put his butt on the line to protect his people. Now - A commander will put his people on the line to protect his butt. 1945 - After the war, you could buy your own rifle off the government, cheap. Now - You can't be trusted with your own rifle, and you'll be jailed if you ever get one. 1945 - Wars were planned and run by generals with lots of important victories. Now - Wars are planned and run by politicians with lots of important panty raids. 1945 - We knew we were fighting for
    freedom. The country was committed to winning. Now - We don't know what we are fighting for. The government is committed to Socialism. 1945 - All you could think of was getting out and becoming a civilian again. Now - All you can think of is getting out and becoming a civilian again.

    X54 <fivefour@garlic.com>
    P.R.C., USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 20:48:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.211.178.25)

    Three Gnarly New Items for Year 2000. and a word of subtle advice,

    START SAVING YO MONEY BOYS!:

    #1) .338 Remington Ultra Magnum

    #2) EtronX Electronic Ignition system

    #3) Remington Model 700 VS (back in .308!!!)

    Pat Mr Bullet, I concur Back to LR stuff

    Yee Hah!

    and Chao!
    peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
    BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 21:17:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.199)

    Whats the groups opinion on rifles for the spotter/support role? I havent seen much talk of this area on the roster.
    Wyatt <raven1@anv.net>
    Sin City, NV, USA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 22:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.14.175.71)
    Heikki! 338Lapua vs. 340W'by.
    This is like comparing apples to oranges - they are both good. For somebody in military ranks or in LE with the state paying for the factory ammo, the 338 Lapua is the obvious choice. I like the Lapua brass, too, use them whenever I can get my hands on them. For a civilian shooter, the 340 has some obvious benefits. Cheap brass can be found everywhere up where I live. Personally, at the moment, I use fireformed 375 H&H brass made by RWS, because I happen to have a large supply of it and its quality is excellent. So for a civilian shhoter, this becomes a matter of cost and practicality.
    Both these excellent chamberings need to be mated to a rifle of a minimum 10lbs with 26" or longer barrel - all to be comfortable to shoot and get the most out in velocity. If a person gets over 5000ft.lbs of energy out of a 338-378 is quite irrelevant. I like to see how many of the SC readership that can shoot a 338-378 comfortably!? Make the rifle 20 lbs, and you might as well go to a 50cal.
    A friend of mine in the Finnish Army tells me that he uses the Sako TRG-41 in 338Lapua, fitted with a reflex suppressor, and it is in this mode quite easy to shoot.
    Heikki, olin muuten 70-luvulla Suomen Armeijassa.

    Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
    B.C., CANADA - Tuesday, November 16, 1999 at 22:47:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.27.219.240)

    Please God, don't let me be the last one to post on the AK/AR issue.

    A little AK story: Met a guy who had been in the South African Defense Force. They found a cache of ANC AK 47's and ammo. Picked one sorry rifle out of the bunch and loaded all the mags they could scrounge, and commenced to fire them, one after the other, in non-stop full auto. I don't remember now the final count, or even if he stated a number of mags fired, but they stopped before the rifle did, and he had the pictures showing the sequence. In the last few it was plain that the forearm wood was pure black and smoldering.

    A little FAL story: My wife Chama (from Venezuela) and I were in Bogota Colombia. Friend Monica (from there) was driving us around and showing us the sights. We're driving around the presidential palace, and my wife starts filming.
    Me: Um, Chama, I don't think you're supposed to be filming around here. They don't like it when people film police and military stuff. Better shut it off.
    Chama: What? Naw. Why? I'm just filming. Don't worry.
    Me: No, really, you ought to know this, it's prohibited. You know, the terrorists and everything. They don't want people filming this and then using the film to help them plan something.....
    Chama: Oh come on, Papi. Don't worry. Monica? Is this a problem?
    Monica: (Braking for stoplight, we are 4 cars back from light, she turns to address me as I am in the back seat) Hey, don't worry about it. We're not going to have a problem.
    Me: (We are now at a stop. Both girls are turned to me in the back seat, the video camera still on Chama's right shoulder; only I am looking forward. At a FAL with a soldier strapped to it. The solder is striding purposefully toward us, alternating between pointing at us, giving us the flat-handed "HALT" sign, and shaking his index finger like, "No, no, no!) So, me: Ah, Monica, don't pull away when the light changes. I think that guy wants us to.....
    Monica: (turning towards front) Ay, conyo. (Kinda like Oh, hell).
    Chama: Ay, conyo.
    Me: Oh, hell.
    We pull over and get out. Soldier #1 is joined by soldier #2 (we are directly opposite the main entry to the place, with a well-manned guard house). They are not rude, but not friendly, all business: You can't film here, it's prohibited. You have to give me your tape.
    Wife: But...
    S #1 to the girls: Identification (not, identification please).
    S #2 to me: Identification. Where are you from?
    Me: US. Part of your rifle is missing. (In my Spanish at the time, probably came out more like, "Your weapon, part gone".
    Chama, overhearing me: Papi, NO! Shut up!
    S #2. What?
    Me: Ah, here's my passport. Yes, part of your rifle is not there. You are missing a part here (I slowly raise me finger to where the gas chamber plug or whatever it's officially called goes. It, and the piston, and piston spring, are AWOL. His eyes go from mine to my finger tip, then follow the fingertip to the parts void in question. He goes crosseyed as my finger gets closer and finally stops 3" away from the hole, pointing. "It fire one bullet, no work more," I say in my bad Spanish. In the meantime, a plainchlothes guy has come over from the guardhouse. My wife is talking him into letting her just rewind and then film the ground, on top of her footage of the palace, and trying to make me shut up with dirty looks. S #2 is satisfied with my passport and the fact that El Jefe has taken control of the situation. El Jefe is wrapping things up and sends both soldiers back to their posts. S #2 walks away with his FAL held so that he can study the front sight block and suspicious-looking cavity while he walks. El Jefe takes a few steps over to me and holds out his hand for my passport, just to double check. He's looking it over, and through the death rays beamed at me from Chama's eyes, I say (something like), "Hey, the weapon of that soldier, missing a part. A part of the block of gas is not there. The weapon can fire one only time". My wife rolls her eyes (just before death rays become fatal to me, thank goodness). She's sure I've just prolonged the problem. He looks over at S #2, and back at me. I put on a serious look and nod my head. He hands back my pasport, turns and strides in S #2's direction. After a few steps, he turns back and says to my wife, "You can go," and to me, "Thank you". The traffic light has cycled several times and when we are back in the car and ready for the road, it's red again. I look back and see El Jefe and S #2 looking at the forward part of the rifle, pointing at it and talking. I think the soldier was getting reamed.

    Sorry-- long dumb story unrealated to SC... but wait... I bet there were snipers on the roof of the palace!

    Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
    XX, MI, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 01:53:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.217)

    Ned,

    Thanks for sharing that little story with us. As a fellow "Gun-Nut" I know just how hard it is to keep quiet when you see something that is not right with someone else's weapons.

    I watched a TV reporter interview some militia guy who was dead certain that everyone was spying on him. He was carrying an M1 Garand that had no gas plug installed. Said he was ready for anyone who came after him. Well, he sure had a nice single shot M1 there. Duh?

    Anyway, I enjoyed the little story you told, and there probably were some snipers around there somewhere.

    Later,

    Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
    ky, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 04:29:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.201)

    Wyatt,

    I think the group is split between the AR and the AK. Let's debate it.

    Just kidding, guys. Back to long range.

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 04:49:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.67)

    Bolt (reeldoctor)

    Q3131 is the catalog number of the load. With most ammo, the lot number is ink pad stamped somewhere on the inside of the box, if it is displayed.
    David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
    NC, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 06:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.13.11)

    Re: Goodbyeguns.org LISTEN UP,PEOPLE !! 1st check out that site, then email this "tango" !!! His email is clark@thinkradio.net
    Don't be rude or crude, just tell this guy how wrong he is. It can be done. Maybe a flood of emails might shock him, at the least it might clog him.
    Out Here !!
    PS. Enough on the "mouse guns" What about a good debate on Rugers or better yet...someone tell me which of the 3 screws on the MKII ruger does what !! There are 3 screws in vertcal alignment and while the break is crisp...there is lots of slack before tension.Any ideas?
    Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
    Still in, The South, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 07:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.132.149)
    Hans:

    Your military friend is shooting a Sako TRG-41 WITH a Reflex-suppressor. You do have good connections, because I know that BR-Tuote has produced only one or two experimental 338 Suppressors for the military for their TRG-41īs. In BR-Tuote home pages they do have a picture of the rifle with this suppressor. E-mail me, if you want to take a look of it. I am planning to get one of these suppressors too next year. One chore is that yu have to unscrew the suppressor after every shooting session and dry and oil it. Otherwise it wil start to rost sooner or later.

    So you speak finnish, that is convinient. If you want to to, you can e-mail me in finnish, or in english if you prefer that. Or swedish for that matter.

    338 Ultra Mag
    Which base size has this rebated case ? Was it a regular magnum base or what ? I am asking so that I know which rifles are easy to rechamber for it. Would it be so easy that you just use a new 338 Ultra Mag reamer in a 338 Win Mag chamber and you have an instant 338 Ultra Mag ? This would be convinient and cheap. Even though I am not planning to sell my 338 LM, a heavy 338 in a standard non-custom magnum action would be a nice option, especially if it can run with the 338 LM and 340 Weatherby, which it probably can.

    Etronix Electronic Ignition system ? I hope it is for a car :-) In a rifle it might be nice in laboratory conditions, but probably not much else. But as I do not know about it, please tell me more about it.

    Heikki
    Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
    Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 07:56:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

    Ned, loved the story. As a gun nut I can't stand seeing things go without notice and at Gun Shows I can be a menace if I see something out of place.
    I have similar expreriences in gun shops every now and then. This one guy that works in one don't know squat and it clearly shows. He can't explain to a customer about a 357Magnum and what that means to a revolver and also how you can fire 38 Special in it.
    B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
    Bakersfield, Ca. (you know the drill), USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 08:28:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.140)
    Wyatt,

    spotter's rifle? No talk about it? I'm working through March archives for the HotTips now. If you want to wait till I get that up, fine. Else you can go back and read through it yourself. Quite a lot of talk on it then, started off by a question on the Steyr Scout.

    Marius
    Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
    Pretoria, South Africa - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 13:00:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

    With the holiday seasons upon us, I thought you might enjoy!

    Santa and the Soldier...

    'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS,
    HE LIVED ALL ALONE,
    IN A ONE BEDROOM HOUSE MADE OF
    PLASTER AND STONE.

    I HAD COME DOWN THE CHIMNEY
    WITH PRESENTS TO GIVE,
    AND TO SEE JUST WHO
    IN THIS HOME DID LIVE.

    I LOOKED ALL ABOUT,
    A STRANGE SIGHT I DID SEE,
    NO TINSEL, NO PRESENTS,
    NOT EVEN A TREE.

    NO STOCKING BY MANTLE,
    JUST BOOTS FILLED WITH SAND,
    ON THE WALL HUNG PICTURES
    OF FAR DISTANT LANDS.

    WITH MEDALS AND BADGES,
    AWARDS OF ALL KINDS,
    A SOBER THOUGHT
    CAME THROUGH MY MIND.

    FOR THIS HOUSE WAS DIFFERENT,
    IT WAS DARK AND DREARY,
    I FOUND THE HOME OF A SOLDIER,
    ONCE I COULD SEE CLEARLY.

    THE SOLDIER LAY SLEEPING,
    SILENT, ALONE,
    CURLED UP ON THE FLOOR
    IN THIS ONE BEDROOM HOME.

    THE FACE WAS SO GENTLE,
    THE ROOM IN SUCH DISORDER,
    NOT HOW I PICTURED
    A UNITED STATES SOLDIER.

    WAS THIS THE HERO
    OF WHOM I'D JUST READ?
    CURLED UP ON A PONCHO,
    THE FLOOR FOR A BED?

    I REALIZED THE FAMILIES
    THAT I SAW THIS NIGHT,
    OWED THEIR LIVES TO THESE SOLDIERS
    WHO WERE WILLING TO FIGHT.

    SOON ROUND THE WORLD,
    THE CHILDREN WOULD PLAY,
    AND GROWNUPS WOULD CELEBRATE
    A BRIGHT CHRISTMAS DAY.

    THEY ALL ENJOYED FREEDOM
    EACH MONTH OF THE YEAR,
    BECAUSE OF THE SOLDIERS,
    LIKE THE ONE LYING HERE.

    I COULDN'T HELP WONDER
    HOW MANY LAY ALONE,
    ON A COLD CHRISTMAS EVE
    IN A LAND FAR FROM HOME.

    THE VERY THOUGHT
    BROUGHT A TEAR TO MY EYE,
    I DROPPED TO MY KNEES
    AND STARTED TO CRY.

    THE SOLDIER AWAKENED
    AND I HEARD A ROUGH VOICE,
    "SANTA DON'T CRY,
    THIS LIFE IS MY CHOICE;

    I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM,
    I DON'T ASK FOR MORE,
    MY LIFE IS MY GOD,
    MY COUNTRY, MY CORPS."

    THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER
    AND DRIFTED TO SLEEP,
    I COULDN'T CONTROL IT,
    I CONTINUED TO WEEP.

    I KEPT WATCH FOR HOURS,
    SO SILENT AND STILL
    AND WE BOTH SHIVERED
    FROM THE COLD NIGHT'S CHILL.

    I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE
    ON THAT COLD, DARK, NIGHT,
    THIS GUARDIAN OF HONOR
    SO WILLING TO FIGHT.

    THEN THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER,
    WITH A VOICE SOFT AND PURE,
    WHISPERED, "CARRY ON SANTA,
    IT'S CHRISTMAS DAY, ALL IS SECURE."

    ONE LOOK AT MY WATCH,
    AND I KNEW HE WAS RIGHT.
    "MERRY CHRISTMAS MY FRIEND,
    AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT."

    This poem was written by a Marine stationed in Okinawa Japan. The
    following is his request. I think it is reasonable.....

    Please, would you do me the kind favor of sending this to as many
    people as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit
    is due to our U.S. service men and women for our being able to
    celebrate these festivities.

    Let's try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe. Make
    people stop and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed
    themselves for us. Please, do your small part to plant this small seed.

    Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
    TX, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 13:54:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.77)

    Dudes,

    Just visited the goodbyeguns web site. The petition really set me off.

    I have three ideas.

    1. SC staff. We need a similar petition on this site to the effect that we are tired of people trying to take the rights away from law abiding citizens. Then get links to it placed on shooters.com and anywhere else we can. We (law abiding gun owners) need to get vocal.

    2. What about a class action, civil law suit against all of the anti-gun organizations? Base it on the fact that at the current time the second ammendment says we can own guns and they are attempting to restrict that right despite the fact that law abiding citizens use guns to protect themselves against crime.

    3. Form a national movement to form a true militia along the lines of the Swiss. Train and equip every law abiding citizen in the use of military firearms and require them to keep said individual weapons on their property. If the anti-gunners say the second ammendment refers to a militia, lets give them one. Conscription would be MANDATORY.

    I know there are a couple of Lawyers that frequent this site. WHat about it?

    I'm tired of the liberals wanting to have thier cake and eat it too.

    Out here.
    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 15:13:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142)

    One more thing.

    On the poem. I doubt if it was written by a Marine as published here. Marines hate being called soldiers, we are Marines... It's a good poem but I don't think it was written by a Marine.

    Okay! Now I'm an asshole!!

    Out here and DOUBLE TIMING through the HATCH in a RETROGRADE OPERATION across the DECK bouncing off BULKHEADS and the OVERHEAD grabbing a BREWSKI out of the REEFER then HITTING AND ROLLING under my RACK to establish a FIGHTING HOLE to await the incoming.

    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 15:25:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142)

    Heikki,

    The .300 Ultra Mag family cases are based on the .404 Jeffries case with a 30 degree shoulder. Case Length approx 2.85", Case head diameter .550".
    I'll speculate (emphasis here) that the 30 degree shoulder will be retained on the .338 UM.

    Production Specs: 250 Swift A frame @ 2900 fps/4668 fpe
    200 Nosler Partition @ 3075 fps/4198 fpe
    from a Remington 700 w/ OEM 26" barrel.

    We shall see on OEM ammo making quoted specs, but it will be cheaper and more readily available here in the USA than the .338 LM, NATURALLY, just the opposite of your fine nation of shooters with the .338 LM.

    Chao!

    peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
    BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 15:50:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.38)

    Gooch, I agree with you on the petition idea. I work at gun shop and constantly hear alot of griping and bitching about all the new laws. When I ask about voting or contacting Congressmen/Senators, majority say they do neither. It is sad that the majority of gun owners in this country do nothing to protect their own rights. I may be wrong, but i believe only about 35% of registered voters turned out for the Bush/Clinton election. That's 65% of the voters who possibly don't care. I know that maybe some had things that came up and couldn't. But still those are scary numbers. I have often thought of ways to get gun owners off their lazy non-voting butts. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the media and besides most of them are Anti-gun anyhow and won't print stuff that goes against their veiws. I do constantly contact my Congressmen and Senators. We have some good and bad ones here in NH. Some are so wishy-washy they will go either way to protect their own political interests. I have alot of faith in Bob Smith.Hopefully he won't get too discouraged and throw in the towel.I know this isn't "Politics Country" but just had to post my 2 cents worth.

    Oh, on the AR vs. AK thing...In my 12 years in service, I shot alot of AR's and had little to no trouble with them. Due to availablity of .223/5.56 ammo and quality of it, I would have to stick with my AR. But then again, I was not in any combat situations and we always maintained them to death just like any other piece of equiptment in peace time. I was in Armament Sections also for my of the time and if your maintainance guys actually check them out good before issue, chances of failing parts are even less. I treated every weapon like it was my own and border-line serviceable parts went in the scrap bin. Thanks for the space here guys. Site is working much better too!

    Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
    "Live Free or Die"State, NH, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 15:54:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.39)

    Gooch.

    #3, a militia that acts as it was clearly intended by the authors of the constitution...sign me up, heck, I'll pay dues, take a week off from work every year and buy my own gun...just make darn sure that this organization is about protecting freedom, not an identity for radical politics. MANDATORY...try to keep me out.

    There always has been a problem with the US, it requires the folks that would protect this country to make long commitiments involving financial consequences...in short, protecting this country involves sacrificing part of the American Dream. I'm amazed that anyone volunteers....I respect the crap outta the folks that do.

    I guess it really wouldn't be all that hard to start such an organization. Keeping on the straight and narrow, avoiding the political trappings that can soil even the most pristine of motives, would be another story.....it takes a brave man to stand and fight, it takes a god to navigate the trappings and temptations of power.

    One suggestion...perhaps a lawyer would not be the best candidate to take the initiative ...
    Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
    NJ, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 16:16:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

    Glad you guys like the little Bogota story. Got a few more but they involve a barking dog, a car bomb, and a prostitute so are not right for SC!

    Further on the FALs: I hereby challenge all SC FAL owners to a postal match. If I can't get worse groups than the bunch of you, I'll eat a box of tracers.
    Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
    XX, MI, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 16:22:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.144.4)

    Take a tip from the left-wing. Lefty loonie-toons name their organizations things like "People for the American Way", or "The Abraham Lincoln Brigade". A petition shouldn't be at Sniper Country. Too easy to paint with the "Right wing extremist" brush. It should be at 'SomethingWarmAndFuzzy.org', and it should be done "for the children". Or puppies.

    Since this isn't 'PoliticsCountry', is there a more appropriate site for this discussion? Or does someone want to pitch in and start 'SomethingWarmAndFuzzy.org'?

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 16:51:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.37)

    Ok I sent mr. no guns an e-mail, sticking to only the facts.. it was hard since it really pissed me off. Don't think you can change his mind, but got my 2 cents in.

    Like fire, a gun itself is neither good nor evil, it is neutral, it's character determind by the eye of the perceiver, the hand of the user.
    Mike <Mikeroyexc@aol.com>
    Florence , MT, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 17:26:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.72)

    HK91 Clones: I have read a few negative comments on the HK91/G3Clones,but thepeople that have negative comments, have never fired one. Now for my opinion as a person who owns a Federal Arms FA91. First of all most people complain on the cost of HK 91 in excess of $2000, Well I paid $650 for FA91. These costs are referenced to CA prices. The average AR15 is around $1000.

    What did I get for $650. I have a semi auto 308 with mostly HK parts that shoots 1" at 100 yards. It comes with a weaver scope reciever. Just buy Weaver rings and you can mount your favorite scope. I have my Leupold 3X9 on it.

    I have fired in excess of 1000 rounds of 150 gr ammo without one miss fire. I typically shoot 100-120 rounds per outing. Buy the way, this is the cheapist ammo that I can find. I am paying 4.99 for 20 rounds.

    Dollar for Dollar- I believe that I have made out like a bandit. This is an exceptional gun. It is not as polished as a HK, but I did not spend $2000. I do not believe you can find another semi-auto that performs this good for less that $1000.

    Theres my opinion. I am very interested in any other owners opinions and how there CLONES have performed.

    to the people of sniper country, thanks for giving me the opportunity to express my opinion, this is a great site.

    bryan
    Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 17:27:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44)

    Gooch:

    Those are some good ideas, especially #3...if you can keep the wingnuts out. Jim's idea that a lawyer is not the best to initiate it is even a better one:)

    A class action against the anti-gun organizations is a fine idea, so long as you have something being done that is actionable. The beautiful irony about the Constitution is that as a citizen, I have the right under the 1st Amendment to vehemently advocate abolishing the 1st Amendment, and that speech is protected. A paradox.

    HCI is doing something very un-American, no question. Being Americans though, they have that right. Maybe a civil action for treason:)? It would not live long in front of the federal judges that would hear it, but it would sure get the point across...and would put them on the defensive, with lapdogs chirping.

    I have long thought that the wrong people are talking on this subject [Jim's point]. As soon as a lawyer starts ranting, well, people expect he is getting paid to say whatever he is saying. The people who truly hold the power here are people such as yourself.

    If you want to blow open the dam, get a group of current Marines together, get ex-military men with good credentials together, cops [MikeM?], etc., and unite to get the story out. I guarantee you if word got out to CNN and the others that a gathering of those guys got together [sorry, SOF convention withstanding] to issue a statement about how gun control is leaving this country weak, how we must have an armed society to be vital, how gun control is un-American and how guns are NOT the problem...the news people would wet themselves trying to get in.

    The way to win is to make the cowards in Washington afraid that they are going to be viewed as cowards by people in America. Now, they think all the soccer moms love them, and will vote for them, because they are doing the "right" thing in banning things that can hurt our poor children, if misused. Why? Because the soccor mom society is the only one out there spending the time and money to advocate a position. Turn the knife on them. No shit, only guys like you and active military / LE can do this, and it should be done seperate and apart from the NRA. As soon as the NRA shows up, people have already seen it, heard it, got the T-shirt to prove it. NRA members would be fine, but the thing should be sanctioned by people who will be heard, not by people with a well advertised agenda.

    If I can help, my time is free.

    Old Dog
    Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 17:40:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

    Bravo; Not too many on here have ever really tried to the Mini 14 I would wager. This gun is extremely reliable almost as reliable as the AK-47. Accuracy out of the box is another matter but it is probably as good as the AK in some cases. I've never been comfortable about using it on full auto but I should admit that I've never heard about a problem in full auto with it.
    Gooch; The Militia Idea is a good one. The founders were against standing armies and that was the main reason for the minute man type militia as you well know. It would make too much sense though and the bureaucracy would try to control it with a tax or a firearms registration. Question is... who could you trust with the information about who belongs and who has the weapons in times like these.
    There are a few already around like the Missouri 51st. but the Government paints them in a criminal color. Sad that well meaning citizens come under that kind of criticism from the government they help support.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 17:50:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
    Gooch,

    I really like the class action law suit thing.Eventhough I'm not American and would not bennefit from it, I would gladly support it.

    Along with the law suit, why not bycott those cities who have launched these suits? It sure would kick the shit out of their economies if all gun owners vowed to never spend their vacation or other discretionary income in these cities.

    Also, why not "protest" and boycott the celebrities that use their fame to endorse anti-gun organizations, and corporations that use them for spokespersons.

    Just imagine what kind of impact 1 or 2 protestors would have during the live taping of a Rosie O'Donnell show. Hell, if you planned it right, you could almost make production of the show an impossible task, forcing her to stop using her t.v. show as a pulpit to spread her anti-gun filth.

    I don't mean violent or illegal protests either, by the way.

    Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
    Truro, N.S., Canada - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 18:29:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.222.7.4)

    Don't want to dredge up the AR v. the world thing again. But had to comment on something above just to set the record straight. The so called "slop" between the receivers is a none issue. It effects accuracy not in the least. It can slop about all it wants but has zer oeffect one accuracy in anyway, other than in the shooters mind.

    As far as the pins wearing out the receivers, this one, if true, has had to be the result of less than good manufacturing on non-mil spec parts. There IS a lot of junk on the market and the buyer should always beware. There are good receivers and bad.

    As a Side note, the first M16A1 I was issued had more zeros in the serial number than anything else. This rifle was, I believe a left over from the mid/late 60's and from the looks of it, saw action. It was beat to hell and gone. But the slop between the receivers was minimal and the thing shot fairly well considering its condition. These old clunkers were issued for AIT. They took the good stuff (M16A2) away form us after basic and issued the oldies for the fun stuff once BRM was over.

    Anyway, onto more interesting things. Who has some Boxer primed 8mm brass they'd be willing to trade for some .308 LC Match brass?
    Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 19:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

    Heikki:
    I will E-mail you directly later!

    Gooch:
    Good ideas. It was said about Switzerland that Hitler would have liked to invade the country, but his generals advised him that by doing that all his armies fighting the rest of the world would be tied up.
    Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
    BC, CANADA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 19:39:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.27.219.240)

    Torsten,

    I agree with you on the G-3, mine is the jewel of my collection but it's actually the 91-A2. When I was in the Persian Gulf I fired all sorts of weapons including the G3-A3 and the G33-A2. I loved them both. I must say that the Germans REALLY know how to build and design weapons. The most enjoyablr weapon of German origin that I have fire was the MG-3. What piece of art! The M-60-E3 that was "mine" sucked like no other weapon I ever fired. Don't get me wrong, the M=60 is a good weapon but the one I had actually was wore out.
    The thing that I camt to realize is that gas operated weapons are very sensitive to ammunition variation. The M-16 operates on a impulse system as does the M-1 Garand. The delayed roller lock is far superior in my own opinion. But to be safe I have a sample of each AK, AR, HK,and various others, just to be safe. Guns are like "Ruffles" chips, you can't just have one.

    To all,

    Due to the ever changing political enviroment, it has been my displeasure to be "called to the carpet" about my visitayions to this wesite. I had a few choice words with my employer and also with the Dean here. So, as it stands right now I am not to wear a "medium regulation" hair cut nor am I to speak to others on this property about ANYTHING to do with firearms, hunting, sporting clays, paint ball, etc. I got the whole conversation on tape and my attorney is looking into possible legal action. DOWN WITH COMMUNISM!!!! Gentlemen and ladies if there are any who frequent this site; I did not joint the Marines to be treated like a thought criminal in my own country. I intent to fight back legally and hit them in the shorts with legal action in court if "they" do not appologize pronto! They know this and it has made them rather, well lets just say "retaliation" will be a big mistake on their part. My attorney specializes in this sort of thing and he seems to be having fun, so I won't deprive him of his pleasure.

    Ammo talk,

    Has any one played with the Nosler J4 Competition .30 caliber 168gr HPBTs in the .308 winchester? I am developing loads as we e-speak. If I may ask, please share any comments, loads and or what ever may help me save time choosing propellants.
    As for the AR, AK debate, im not going to kick that dead horse. I think it is a matter of personal preferance to the individual shooter. Only the shooter may know how, when, and where a system will be deployed. They all work as designed.
    Semper Fi!
    Bad Karma

    Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 19:40:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.23)

    To all,

    I just saw the goodbyeguns.org website. I think I'm going to be sick. Let them try it and they will get the same treatment thatwe gave the British. Get out! I only have one quote:
    If you don't like it, move to Russia! Homer Simpson
    Ha! Ha! these people are not Americans as far as I'm concerned. If it were up to me I would re-open the Senate sub-commitee on un-American activites.
    God save the Constitution!
    Semper Fi!
    Bad Karma
    Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 19:51:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.23)

    I like the "Militia" idea. But as mentioned, "it" or "we" would come under hostile verbal attacks from the git-go. It would be just because of the incidents in the past, Our integrity and motives would constantly be questioned. Everytime the Organization tried to do or say anything you would hear chants of "Ruby Ridge", "Waco", and "Montana". But what the hell, I'm all for it. My reference to "politics Country" wasn't negative. It was just matter-of-factly.In this era, guns and politics go hand in hand. With the increasing number of gun laws that have passed and are trying to be pushed through, The name of the site could be changed to "Ex-Sniper Country". Then we can talk about the good 'ol days when we used to be able to own and shoot the AR's, AK's, .50 cals., the'ol 1911's, and the Hi-Cap 9's. Sorry, wasn't trying to bring everybody down. I just keep track of what's going on in the country. Like I mentioned before about the voting, seems like the "Soccer Moms" and the celeberties are better at organizing themselves than others are. I'm not a pessimist, more a realist.If I could get national media attention at my whim, believe me I would! I'm not a nobody, but "they" think I am. "They" think all of us are "nobodys". If we did band together it would be great. Anybody know "Somebody" that can get the ball rolling? He/She would have to be an awesome figure-head to pull it off.
    I'm into the protection of the Constituion and people's rights as it was written and with those "Ideals" that the Fore-Fathers put across. I constantly hear "idle" threats of potential violence when "Big Brother" comes to confiscate. But I feel we are all to blame for letting it go that far if it comes to it.If my fellow americans vote in laws saying I cannot own certain types or any type of firearm(s) any more, then I will have to let them take them. NH is unique in it's State Constition.The forming of "Independant" militia groups is protected by state law and militia groups are subject to "call-up" by the governor. Gee, anyone think Bob Smith would be interested? I'll drop him a line and ask,worth a try. Thanks again for putting up with me. -Rick
    Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
    "Live Free or Die" State, NH, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 20:21:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)
    Gooch,
    I e.mailed Mr. Clark and did not get smart with him, but told him I felt he was blaming the gun instead of the real cause for the violence
    in this country. I also told him that a gun in the hands or a responsible citizen is no different than a golf club in his hands. I doubt he even will read it, but at least he might know that there are people out there that do care about their rights. I think Old Dog and you are right, we need to organize and stand up and stick togeather and show people that because we shoot or own guns were no more of a threat to them than Clark is with his golf clubs.
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 20:26:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
    I cant belive that the Anti Gun crowd in the US is as ignorant as they seem.

    I belive that it is much more a fight between, letīs compare to High School, the jocks and the geeks.

    They (anti gunners) probably know that they cant get rid of a society problem by banning the availabilety of a simple tool.
    But they sure can get the group of people that enjoy these tools for sport, or as a basis for self protection real pissed with what they do.

    So in having fun pressing their opinion on others they just pick a target group.

    They might as well be against whatever as long as they can press their stupid ideas upon others.

    very dangerous situation, my country is just getting over it.

    t
    Torsten <torsten.erning@t-online.de>
    G3ermany - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 20:45:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.185.248.120)

    Bad Karma...BRAVO!!!! Stand up for your rights! nobody else will for you!

    Gooch.. I also e-mailed Mr. Clark and politely and respectfully told him I thought he was sadly mistaken if he thinks abolishing gun ownership is going to solve all or any of our society's problems. I feel the criminal element will go on and probably flourish without the good, law-abiding, gun-owning population. I have intervened in the past when I saw a crime taking place and have assisted police in searches and arresting criminals. I will do so again. Won't be as easy without my sidearm though. Maybe one of us will get the chance to save Mr. Clark's ass one day and he will change his tune.
    Rick <Boutyhnts@aol.com>
    "Live Free or Die" State, NH, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 20:49:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

    Torsten Dude...

    It's not about crime... and to believe that somehow, they don't understand that their gun laws won't work... and that you can "educate" them and change their ways, is silly.

    They know exactly what they're doing... they know the laws don't have any impact on crime... THEY DON'T WANT THE LAWS TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON CRIME!!!
    Their agenda is to ban the private ownership of guns, even if crime goes up... and this why it's so hard to stop them... they don't give a shit that the "Right to carry" states have a 30% lower rate of violent crime. Crime isn't what they're after.

    The anti-gun folks claim their goal is to make society safe from violence... the same type of claims Clinton makes when he says "He's doing for the kids"... it's a very emotional appeal aimed at the middle segment of our society, that has no formed position, and no knowledge of the real facts. You get these folks to back your laws, and you have it made.

    Every time a gun tragady happens, within hours, "new" laws are proposed... how could they be proposed that fast... because they were already written, waiting for an emotional moment, to bring them forward.

    And if you look at the laws, they don't have anything to do with the crime that "provoked" the laws. The are broad gun bans, broad ownership ban, and restrictions.

    So writing to Handgun Control, and telling them that they're wrong, is a waste of time... they KNOW that they aren't going to lower crime... if they did, they'd loose the very excuse they have to promote more laws.

    If you want to write to someone, write to congressmen (they need the votes)... and write to the sponsors of the TV shows, and anti-gun movments, and boycott them... They have a monetery interest in these issues.

    Pablito.

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 21:58:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.127)

    Has anyone out there tried a Burris Black Diamond? The optics compared favorably to a Leupold Vari X III LR. It is going on a 300 Win Mag. Please email me as I do not have alot of time to read the roster.

    Thanks.
    The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
    Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 22:12:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.4.106)

    Hot damn, sign me up. Will be a chance to do what I should have done 25 years ago. How much vacation and free ammo do we get?

    Question.....What is the ideal height for a field tripod for spotting scope?
    PFC Bolt, 1st U.S Militia <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 23:00:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.47.116)

    To CDC Re: Kipling
    While browsing in a public library when I was a teenager about 30 years ago I stumbled upon that passage about blowing your brains out and going to Gawd like a soldier. Several times since then I have tried to find that Ballad with no luck, so I thank you for that.
    By the way, do you or any other "Poet Warriors" know the title of the Greatest Ballad ever written? I will give a small hint. If anyone knows how deep the ocean is halfway between Dumferling town and Aberdour, they would also know the title to this Ballad.
    What the heck the roster is loading so fast now, I will waste a few more bytes. If I can read "Santa and the Soldier" twice, you'all can indulge me in this.

    The Man He Killed ~Thomas Hardy

    "Had he and I but met
    By some old ancient inn,
    We should have sat us down to wet
    Right many a nipperkin!
    "But ranged as infantry,
    And staring face to face,
    I shot at him and he at me,
    And killed him in his place.
    "I shot him dead because -
    Because he was my foe,
    Just so - my foe of course he was;
    That's clear enough; although
    "He thought he'd 'list perhaps,
    Off-hand like - just as I -
    Was out of work - had sold his traps -
    No other reason why.
    "Yes; quaint and curious war is-
    You shoot a fellow down
    You'd treat if met where any bar is,
    Or help to half-a-crown."

    Steve <nato@bright.net>
    S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 23:34:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

    Mr. Rogers: yup, the Mini is a gem, although that friend of mine that loves the HK purchased an automatic mini. Said it was a dog. He traded it off pronto. Same for the Colt CAR in auto. Now he has that HK and a FAL. The only auto I've personally had was a M2 (auto M1 carbine) and it never jammed unless I was trying to use the Speer 110 gr bullets (exposed lead hollow points). Don't do that.
    As for me, color me happy with a M1 type action in semi auto!

    Gooch: Soldier wasn't something I smiled at, troop was something I had words over, sailor was a fighting word.
    I agree completely with the militia movement. Let's do it. Of course with Y2K, and clit-ton wanting to start FIMA up, better wait till February!

    To anyone having problems with the "superiors" not liking visiting this kind of site: mail me. I've got the t-shirt "been there - done that!" Not pretty. Here's a hint: they have no qualms with lying, cheating, stealing, coersion, etc.

    I remember a while back (like a decade or so, before the Waco incident), the North Texas Milita (where I was living at the time) boasted something like 30,000 members. If we had that, people would listen. The news listened to them, and painted them as nut-so's. Anti-defimation leauge? Yeah, right. I vote that Chuck Heston step to the front. Anyone that can be Moses so well deserves a leadership role.

    Even from the little that I personally know some of you, I would be pleased to do field time in your company!
    Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
    Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 23:47:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

    To All,
    I also emailed Mr. Clark, I was polite as we all should be in this confrontation. However, remember, Gooch is correct with his comment that we need to email our Senators and Reps in order to be heard. If we as a group send email to voice our "voting" opinions lets do it where it will do the most good. If you don't vote now, don't complain later. :)
    FRANK <kubikari@goplay.com>
    cows bay, orygunn, USA - Wednesday, November 17, 1999 at 23:59:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.214.112.147)
    AntiGun stuff: Okay ladies/gents - if youn'z want to build an anti-anti gun site let me know - I will provide server space, access, domain registration, etc.

    Ken :)

    Ken <ken@hunters.org>
    Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 00:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)


    Colin:
    Your original comment:

    >>Ken: Thank you for the bandwith... It's like a hot shower after a >>week in the bush.

    Now that's what I call a complement... :)
    Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
    Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 00:56:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

    To all: I have also e-mailed Clark. Sometimes it's so hard to be nice!

    I've stumbled onto an interesting law review article:

    Johnson, Nicholas E.
    "Beyond the Second Amendment: An Individual Right to Arms Viewed Through the Ninth Amendment"
    24 Rutgers L. J. 1-81 (1992)

    http://www.2ndlawlib.org/journals/nj9th.html

    Did I say, "Interesting law review article"? Jeez! I need to do less readin' and more shootin'.

    PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
    Columbia, MO, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 00:57:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.178)

    Mr. Gooch,

    After almost losing my breakfast over the goodbyeguns site, I sent him the following e-mail:

    Dear Sir:

    The following paragraph, taken from your web site, seems to be at odds with your stand on gun control.

         "Clark believes a small group of con artists are fooling our citizens
    into throwing away the rights our founding fathers paid for with their
    lives. Think Radio advocates "awareness and thought" as tools to defeat these evil and sinister con artists."

    It would seem to me that you are one of these "sinister con artists".
    Could you please explain this?

    Sincerely,

    Robert L. Holloway

    Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
    The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 01:01:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.234)

    Wyatt,

    Support weapons for spotters. It is really hard to say. I myself when in the spotter roll carry a scopes M1A super match or my HK-91. The reason is that the sniper and I are using the same ammo. But I don't always go that rout. I will sometimes carry my Bushmaster shorty since it makes a nice perimeter weapon. If I am in a urban setting I would place my bet on a 12ga any day! The reason is this. The 12ga is a multi role weapon that can use a vast variety of ammo ie OObuck, slugs, sabot slugs, flechette, nails, whatever you can think of.
    I also beliewve that a effective sniper team is also better with a third man for security. If the spotter has his/her eye glued to a glass and is concentrating on his snipers target, you might get suprised. A third man upgrades the unit to a fire team. I always keep in mind that the situation or mission dictates what the spoteer is going to carry. My advice is whatever you carry you must know it as well as yourself. A man with a hundred guns is not as dangerous as the man who only has one that he knows how to use VERY well.
    Experiment and try different scenarios that may require different types of support. When I go out I carry my M700 and either my S&W 629 mountain gun .44mag or my S&W 625-4 .45 ACP. I have been taking my 12ga more often than not in a spotting role. If this is the case I will bring my .44 mag too. My 12ga has ghost ring sights so I still have a good universal rifle as well as a street broom. Others may agree or disagree but only you can detemine what YOU need. I hope this helps you out.
    Semper Fi!
    Bad Karma
    Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 01:13:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.14)

    Ken,

    I will pitch in on the anti, anti gun site. I will write some HTML and send it to you. Just give me an area to work on so that I can have an idea of what is needed. I am not familiar with java script yet but I will be in another semester.

    To all reloaders,

    I am contemplating a site dedicated to the sniper who reloads. I intend to have a nice site with audio and video. But I would like some help and input as far as photos are concerned. I will also set up a PGP area for closed viewing to keep Big Bro scratching his head.
    I hope that the flame of freedom never flickers or falters. The free exchange of ideas is important as long as we are willing to share those ideas. If you are a commie or a socialist then perhaps its time to seek citizenship elsewhere...PRC perhaps.
    I take my freedoms seriously, maybe it's because I fought a war and nearly bought it. Who knows but, I came back a different human being. I appreciate all those who served...Thanks I only wish others would take the torch of freedom more seriously. I salute all of you, especially those who didn't come back.
    Semper Fi!
    Bad Karma
    Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 01:30:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.14)

    Can anyone tell me if the SAKO AV (long) action is the same as the same as the SAKO 691 and will the AV fit into the HS Precision series
    Terry Spicer <terry@awcoldstream.com>
    Dryden , Ontario, Canada - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 01:34:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.211.81.88)
    Ok I'll try again- Can anyone tell me if the SAKO AV action (long) is the same as the SAKO 691 also a liong action. The AV has the integral recoil lug on the aciton. Further will the AV drop into the HS Precision series 2000 stocks. Thanks in advance.
    Terry Spicer <terry@awcoldstream.com>
    Dryden, Ontario, Canada - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 01:38:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.211.81.88)
    Still looking for advice on rings to use on an M1A with the Springfield 3rd generation mount. How about the Burris Signature Zee Rings? I think I saw someone else post about those before.

    To those who have already e-mailed me, thanks. Your information is much appreciated.

    Regarding the AR-18, I don't think Stoner was in on the design of that one. There were three other engineers at Fairchild that applied for the patent on it.

    I have a Bushmaster M17S bullpup which has a variant of the AR-18 gas system. After having an AR, I really appreciate the ease with which it can be cleaned since there is no gas blowback into the action. The bolt carrier design is such that the bolt carrier rides on two rods that mate into the face of the barrel extension. Since the carrier only rides on those rods and nothing else it is less prone to jamming from being dirty. However, if the bolt doesn't drive forward completely it is next to impossible to get it to go into battery - imagine an AR without a forward assist. This doesn't seem to be too much of an issue as long as you have good ammo and magazines. I would prefer a bolt handle to bang on though.
    James <jbarrier@juno.com>
    WA, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 02:00:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.82.215.2)

    Marius: check your email.

    Ken :)

    Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
    Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 02:13:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.54)

    Remembering the number of times, I was chastised for mentioning issues like these being discussed (see archives). I see everyone is catching on. Freedom is not, repeat is not a political issue.
    Scott; is right about the slack in the AR-15 action it doesn't affect the accuracy that I can tell. Those little red rubber things sure make it feel better though.
    A while back I wrote a spoof article about interviewing a militia captain. It was supposed to be the Ghost Militia consisting of Washington and several of the founding fathers. It was worded and coded as to sound as if it was a modern Militia but nobody caught on.
    I finally had to explain it to keep everyone from wanting to Join up!
    As a result there are investigations into the non existant unit and camera's on Government land (paramilitary maneuvers are illegal in this state). It's a riot really. If anyone knew their history they would have understood the original article for what it was.
    (copies on request). Oliver North eluded to the movement on TV. and there is now a big red dot over this county on the CNN militia location guide. (probably obtained from the FBI). Just thought you boys would get a kick out of this. There ain't a damn thing out here but Jack Rabbits.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 02:28:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
    THe type of militia I am talking about would be a Federal Reserve Force similiar to the National Guard but would be mandatory. Many states already have organized State Guards. THere is a web site at www.sgaus.org that talks about them.

    Unofficial Militias are dangerous. There is too much opportunity for wacko's to do thier thing. Hell maybe we just need to go back to mandatory service in the military.

    I'm up for the anti-anti gun site.
    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 03:06:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.186)

    Here is an extract from the 9th Amendment link.

    "Some of us are comfortable with forcing individuals to cede firearms exclusively to collective control. This stance forces an array of uncomfortable assumptions. It implies that an individual's interest in self-preservation is not so important that it cannot be ignored in the interest of order or making governing easier. It assumes that unarmed individuals are at no disadvantage against armed aggressors. It demands that agents of government can and will be summoned and arrive the instant a violent threat arises. It presumes that only agents of government can be qualified to resist violent aggression in kind and must do so on behalf of citizens who cannot defend themselves. It relies on government's competence and benevolence, and on the future's predictability, ensuring that collective measures will be sufficient to resist the threats that arise. Perhaps more troubling than all of these is the assumption that the most effective mode of self defense permitted under a constitution written by revolutionaries, who distrusted government and believed in innumerable individual rights, is the First Amendment right to scream 911."

    Just about sys it all.
    Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 03:18:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.186)

    Steve:

    Can I name the greatest ballad ever written? Guess not. I always thought it was "The Iliad".

    On this web-site thing. Let's go. Who's in command here? Set goals, make plans, implement plans. We're burning daylight.
    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 03:29:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.98)

    Gooch; you may have worked for your Uncle too long. The Militia is not Federal Reserve. That is the whole point of it. If it is it becomes a standing army. We were warned about that many times during the writing of the constituion. The Militia is composed of citizens, minute men that hold arms as a deterent to totalarism. They are a threat not neccessarily a force. Hold that thought I'll be back Friday. Or take your best shot and I'll answer or surrender Friday.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 04:01:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
    Re: www.goodbyegun.org
    Got to the site - Modified the petition to my own perspective about NO MORE GUN CONTROL NEEDED - Clicked send ! Asked my friends to do the same.

    This is called "beat the demon with its own stick" in The Art of War, I believe.
    Nhatrang62 <nhatrang62@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 04:51:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.74.66)

    1st: The M16A2 that I had in boot camp rattled when you shook it because the upper and lower receivers had a good amount of play present: yet you could still shoot headshots on B-mod targets with iron sights at 500 yards with it. Have to agree: the sights, barrel, and bolt are all on one side, thus the looseness deosn't play that great a role in decreasing accuracy.

    2nd: Pow! When the web address for the anti-gun page was first posted the other night I skampered off and looked at it, and felt an urge to write. I was biting my tongue, but I managed to compose a (hopefully) intelligent, courteous yet firm, statement regarding the fallacy of gun control and its anti-American overtones. Now, lo and behold, it looks as if EVERYONE is sending this fellow emails... I wish he'd get the message, but I'll have to admit I don't expect us to be able to turn his heart.

    On the militia thing: Yes, the founding fathers were against standing armies, and thus everyone needed to be capable of fighting. With today's military in place it isn't as imperative to maintain a militia for the defense of the nation from foreign invaders. The purpose of the 2nd amendment, however, wasn't just for the defense of the nation from exteriopr threats, but it enables the citizen to keep the government itself in check (I know I know - I'm preaching to the choir, but even the saintly still neeed to go to church every Sunday!).

    One of the NRA's programs, which I think is what is needed for everyone not just for children, and not for just safety issues but as a social responsibility forum, is EDUCATION. The problem is that today's anti-gun leaders were never taught how to rabbit-hunt, were never taught the joys of marksmanship, and never defended our nation by risking their life in the military and confronting the social dilemma and coming to the logical conclusion that we have. [DISCLAIMER: The previous statemnet made several gross generalizations based upon stereotypes under the realization that there is a reason why stereotypes exist: because they're usually right!]

    The thing I see as the biggest problem is that liberal educators today are the very ones trying to eliminate firearms. Thus those who are "educated" have not been taught about the essential role of firearms in America. Freedom is not free. Not that I would EVER walk up to a Littleton survivior and say "Sorry, but that's the price you had to pay for America", because it was a criminal act by derranged youths that took their loved ones; but we cannot eliminate firearms from America and have it still be America. So yes, in a way, they did pay a price for America.

    Ah, well... I guess I'll put the soapbox away, since what I said wasn't "SNIPER" related... just had to speak my peace.

    Gooch:
    Gotta agree, we're not "soldiers"; they're not Drill Sergeants, they're Drill Instructors; it's never "HUT ONE TWO THREE FOUR", it's "EFFT AIHT EFFT AIHT LOF ROI-HT LOEFFT - LEF OT ROHT - LEF OT ROHT-EE LO - EFFT AIHT"; scuzzbrushing the DECK while duck-walking; being DUG while the sand fleas are having dinner; and those horrendous nights in Jacksonville (bar, used car lot, pawnshop, bar, pawnshop, tattoo parlor, bar, used car lot, laundrymat/bar, tattoo parlor, bar, pawnshop, used car lot, etc....)

    L8R, all....
    -L
    Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
    TN-VA, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 05:35:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.152)

    Leade/throat question.

    I looked through the hot tips and cold shots section before writing this, so here goes. I have a Rem 700P in .308 which I am going to have a smith perform some trigger work, true the action, glass the recoil lug, etc. In addition, I plan to address another issue: this rifle has a very long throat (imagine that!). I handload Sierra's 168 HPBT MK at 2.800" oal to fit in the magazine (this is length for Federal's 308M ammo, I have found) and I have about .195" leade, which is a long way to jump a match bullet and produce best accuracy, although it is under 1moa from 100 to 300 yards w/ the Fed match or my handloads made to imitate it as nearly as possible (oal to touch the rifling w/ the S168MK is 2.995", this measured with a Stoney Point tool). I want to reduce the leade to between .010" and .030" to improve accuracy. My accuracy testing with long-loaded single load ammo has found accuracy does improve as the ogive gets closer to the rifling and that there is very little accuracy gain from .030" to .010" (I use 41.5 grns IMR 4895, WLP primer, FC case, S168MK loaded on a D550b with a Redding micrometer seating die). This will require about 2 turns of the barrel. However, if I have the throat reduced this much, what effect will it have w/ other bullets such as 147/150 FMJ's, 165 GK's, 175MK's etc. or surplus or factory loadings? What might be a good all-around leade to use? I don't want to reduce the leade so much that I can't use ammo/bullets besides that loaded to 2.800" w/ the 168 MK's. Can anyone comment on this? TIA, Scott
    SF <SF11615@aol.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 07:31:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.40)

    338 Ultra

    This round seems to be a very well thought out idea. One thing I do not like about 338 Lapua is the fact that the round is so long that you will need a custom action or you have to buy custom priced rifles like Sako TRG-41, Accuracy International or Erma.

    A heavy 338 round that fits in a "normal" long magnum action is very good news. I hope that the brass will be good and easily available.

    Militia:
    Most smaller nations have it just because they have no other chance. I do think that it is a good thing for the society that most people (at least males) know what a war and fighting actually is. Thus they become less enthusiastic about fighting wars for stupid reasons. They know that PEOPLE WILL DIE, and they know it might be as well themselves or their children. Because of this I think a mandatory military service is a good thing to have. When the voters know that they themselves or their children will die, if they start a war, they will be more reluctant to start wars just for the fun of it. I could talk a lot more of this, but this is Sniper Country, not PoliticsFUBAR.com.

    Take care

    Heikki

    Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
    Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 07:34:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

    Hi,

    After playing around plug and play "mexican match" style for a while I have found that I can cut my group (or pattern) by half. Yeap, right from 5"-6" group to 3"-4" group at 100 yds. Oh yeah, you can get old real fast with this kinetic bullet puller specially trying to pull those lacquered seal hardening mil surplus FMJ cartridges. I'm going roll my own now.

    A starter question for all the more experienced here, what is a suitable IMR powder that will work for both 223R and 308W? IMR is the only powder available here in this part of the world.

    Let's say, a powder for the EOTWAWKI or y2k powder!

    like my zen master use to say...improvise, made do, overcome!!!

    Thanks,
    Serri
    Serri <Serri_ls_lithy@yahoo.com>
    ex-LRRP, BKK, Thailand - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 10:54:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.94.3.4)

    Serri, don't know if you have tried this, but you might try bumping the bullet down just a little bit in your reloading press, just enough to break the laquer a bit. Then when you put it in the kinetic headache maker you might have a slightly easier time. I don't see any safety hazards with this but someone might chime in if they think of something.
    And for a 308/223 powder how about IMR3031? Pretty sure I've used this one with both 223 and 308 but I left my darn reloading books at home. Guess I'll have to start leaving those in the truck now too. I've already got everything I've never needed in there already anyhow.

    Go the smithy guru types that would like to comment on an AR-10 bolt please read on. I just got back factory recalled AR10 replacement bolt yesterday and I'm kinda displeased with it's fit. Owning several AR type rifles and been around countless more, with the bolt and carrier out of the rifle, I've noticed what a broken in bolt feels like where it has just a slight bit of resistance. This is how the recalled bolt was before it was sent off to be replaced. Now this new bolt raises questions because it has a complete lack of resistance in the carrier. While my first big concern would be proper headspacing my second concern is the fit of the bolt. There isn't much wobble between the bolt and carrier but it feels "loose". I can turn the bolt upside down and back up right and the bolt will go between locked postition and unlocked postition. With this bolt being so loose I'm worried about maybe gasses escaping through areas like where the gas rings are. This seems to me to be one of the areas that should fit tight and be a source of resistance.

    This friday will be my first day back on the range with the rifle since getting the replacement part. I'm hoping for smooth cycling and equal accuracy to what the rifle was capable of before sending in the bolt. This gun used to be a true sub-MOA 5 shot rifle at 100 yards with select reloads. Luckily my rifle isn't really all that broken in yet, the rifle only had maybe 200-300 rounds through it. I hope that makes swapping a bolt less critical to accuracy as the parts haven't really mated too well.

    Thanks in advance for any help or opinions.
    B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
    Bakersfield, California the confiscation state., USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 11:41:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.0.246)

    BillR, You're right about the federal thing. Okay I guess the State Guard's would be better.

    By the way guys the National Guard isn't really a state guard any more. The Army pretty much has it by the balls. For example all National Guard Infantry units come underneath Active Army Divisions. THe Army Reserve has no more Combat Arms types because they will use National Guard for that purpose. The Governors have their National GUard units at their disposal for local issue until the President Federalizes them into Federal Service then the State loses them. Uniform says US Army and the training is all to US Army Regs.

    Still think independent militias are not a good thing for official purposes. If a bunch of guys want to get together and defend their AO against thugs then good to go, but for the big picture...uh uh.

    My whole thought behind this is mandatory consription for a short time to bring the country back to center. Too many people have this salad bar mentality that the world is there for their consumption at their leisure. I like the comment from our Finnish friend in regard to how a country can be prowar when they have no realistic chance of having to participate in said war. Every swinging dick should have his member on the block. Gives them a sense of reality.

    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 13:28:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.140)

    SF,
    My guns are chambered so that a 168 Federal Match round will just "KISS" the rifling. This is great for the 168s and some 175s but a 118LR will not chamber with out seating it deeper or forcing the bolt closed and pushing the bullet into the lands and we all know what that does. If your rifle is shooting good don't worry about it. If your going to spend the money to have it done then I would decide on what bullet you want to shoot and stay with that bullet. I decided on the 168s because I like the accuracy and I push them to 2800fps so they still shoot well at 1000yds. My old VS had such a long throat the bullet would nearly fall out before it would touch the rifling and it shot in the .6s with everything I shot in it and for what I did that was just fine. I now have one that will shoot in the .2s and .3s but out in the field, shooting off of bipods, at unknown distance, I really honestly don't see a lot of difference. I either hit what I aim at or miss it. Most of the time its due to a bad wind call or ranging, not the fault of the gun. Do I feel better now because my gun will shoot little holes off a bench?? YOU DAMN RIGHT I DO!! But does it really make that much differnce in real world shooting?? NOPE!! But then I DOooo.. feel better(HA)
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 14:26:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
    Attn: Bad Karma
    I was down at Ft.Carson drinking it up and talking with some SOTIC boys from 10th group at the sniper comp a few years ago. There is a guy who teaches tracking/countertracking to the SOTIC students. When the three man team came up he whole heartedly disagreed. Reason being it is to easy to track a three man team. I think that a good tracker is going to find your spore no matter how carefull you are, especially if you are comprimised and have shifted into E&E mode. You just can't waste the time to try and hide every trace you'r moving to fast.Just move at best tactical speed, use good field craft,lay down some suprises for tracker team and dogs and feel a little better knowing you have a third weapon to bring into action should the need arise.
    I agree with you on the shotgun but couldn't the sniper carry one?
    HK or FAL very good choicees don't care for the AR family.
    Why the wheel guns? I considered it but went with the Sig 220 .45 auto. Has anyone checked out the guy on the web selling M79's He has an adaptor round that fires 18 .22 LR's at once. and are reloadable in the field.Sounds like it would be a good equalizer if times got hard.
    A question for the Jar I mean Marines out there. Do you guys teach field reloading and battle field recovery of components?
    Don
    Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 14:52:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.207)
    peteR TYPO ALERT!!!!!!!!

    Production Specs: 250 Swift A frame @ 2900 fps/4668 fpe
    200 Nosler Partition @ 3075 fps/4198 fpe
    from a Remington 700 w/ OEM 26" barrel.

    Second one
    SHOULD BE..........

    A .300 ULTRA MAG (NEW LOAD):
    200 Nosler Partition @ 3075 fps/4198 fpe
    from a Remington 700 w/ OEM 26" barrel.

    They are also going to offer the Swift Bullets Scirocco in 180 gr. version for the .300 Ultra Mag. Should be just what the Doctor ordered for looonger ranges.

    WAY BIG :-) DUDES!

    Chao!
    peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
    Typo City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 15:12:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.79)

    Gooch, I have to agree with on mandatory service. I think if we went back to the "draft", this country would eventualy come back around. "Kids" today have no discipline to speak off. Their self-esteem seems low or non-existent. Youth today are treated with "kid gloves". Hell, if you smack your kids ass for acting up you're likely ended up in court or at least have some counselor from DFACS knocking on your door. As I see it, youth today are taught to be individualists, not team players.I think a little time on the drill field wouldn't hurt anybody!

    You are right about the United States Army National Guard. The army has got a strangle hold on the Guard now. I spent the last 6+ years of servive in Georgia. There was so much re-organization going on, you didn't know which unit you were in from one day to the next. Hell, I wore out the left sleeve of my uniforms changing shoulder patches! When I was with 1/121IN of the 48th Brigade( which was taken over by 24th IN Div.) We even had to wear the 24th patch over shirt pocket!I was in a CSAB unit for awhile and that got taken over by the 82nd.There was a local MP unit, that was eventually taken over by army reserve. I keep in touch with my buddies back there and they tell me that the 48th brigade even does rotations to Bosnia now. The Gulf War brought about most of the changes. In the past, the army and army reserve got the cream of the crop in equiptment and the money. Active and reserve army got the priority in service schools. State level politicians got the ass during the Gulf War because Gen. Schartzkolf did want to use them. They whined and bitched until he gave in. He said if they went to NTC and trained and were ready to go he would deploy them. Some units of the 48th Brigade went out there for 6 months and still weren't ready and didn't go.

    I guess what I'm getting at is, If someone were to put a "milita" together, training would be essential. Don't expect any help from Uncle Sam. It will take alot of $$$$ to get it going. I'm broke , but my time is free. At least I kept all my uniforms and boots. Just send me some velcro and patches!
    Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
    Live Free or Die State, NH, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 15:29:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.62)

    Militia - I still like the idea Robert Heinlien introduced in the book "Starship Troopers"...only those that have served to defend the country may vote. I have not served, so I'd sure like an opportunity to do so before we go and change the rules...

    Imagine what mandatory or high percentage service would do to the anti-gun lobby... how many ex-military folks do you know that think disarming the public is the way to go...

    Count me in for a petition signature or vote to the affirmative...
    Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
    NJ, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 15:32:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

    Old Dog:

    There is an orginization made up of law emforcement officers, corrections officers, crime victims and concerned citizens it is called the Law Enforcement Alliance of America (LEAA). I am a member and I recomend this orginization to all Duty Roster visiters. Amoung the things that they are pushing congress for is a bill that would allow all active duty and retired cops to cary concealed anywhere in the country. This just makes sence and is a lot more effective than puting "100,000 new cops on the street" as suggested by you know who. I called them this morning (800)766-8578 and asked if they have a web site. They said that it should be up soon at LEAA.org but when I tried it just a minute ago it was not there. LEAA is a big supporter of citizens gun rights and concealed carry laws and they try to counter the bad information put out by groups like International Orginization of Chiefs of Police. Another item that they are working on that I'm in favor of is an attempt to have all the weight training equipment removed from all jails and prisons. Why do I want to put these Sh*t Heads in jail just so they can bulk up and be ready to take my head off when they get out. As I have commented before I spend most of my time sitting (behind a desk, in front of a typwrighter, in my cruiser, in court, etc.) so why allow them to spend all there time exercizing?

    I'll put my soapbox away now.

    Maybe I'll just ask which is better the 9mm or the 45acp?

    Stay Safe!

    Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
    Freezing my butt off in , Blistering Cold, West Virginia, (It should not be this cold all ready!), USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 16:30:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.112)

    Has anyone got a reply back from any e-mail sent to Mr. No guns?

    Gooch, I think bringing the draft back would help out this country,I think we started to see a turn after it stop in morals and values right and wrong in this country. I did here a rumor the might start it up due to the state of readness in the military today. Well enought time on my soap box.
    Mike <Mikeroyexc@aol.com>
    Florence, MT, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 16:36:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.46)

    Getting off this gun control horse after this one.

    gooch, your point about mandatory service is a good one, but you might as well be trying to sell ice to eskimos. the draft, or mandatory service of any type just ain't going to happen again...until maybe WWIII.

    gun control will only be defeated when more Americans speak out against it than for it. HCI and the Schumer types are on the offensive, while we who feel "entitled" by the Constitution do what history has taught us "entitlement" people will do: Sit on their ass and wait. When was the last time we wrote and called each of our congress-people and senators, on a regular ie., monthly basis? How many of your friends are doing it? If the answer is never, and none...all the good ideas in the world are as valuable as a bucket of spit.

    old dog
    Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 16:52:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

    Bruce,
    I don't diagree with what your saying but when the Brady bill came about every noon hour we would call our senators and representives to tell them how we felt about it and they would tell us to relax that the people of South Dakota were running 10 to 1 against it and we could be assured that they would vote the right way "WRONG" They voted for it!!! I thought they represented the wishes of the people but we all know thats "BULL SHIT" They are out for their own polictcal gain take a look at where our senator is now. Sorry but it still up sets me to no end.
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 17:22:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
    DAMN,
    Sorry about the spelling and or typing, I guess I should have read it before posting(HA)
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 17:26:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
    DEPITY DAVE,

    .45 ACP (ANY FLAVOR) RULES!!!!!

    peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
    BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 17:34:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.23)

    I e-mailed Senator Bob Smith(nh) and gave him a brief discription of this site and invited him stop by the site and check it out. He is very pro-Second Amendment. He is about the only one in Washington that dares to take a firm stand and will not give in to the politcal pressure poured on. He has gone as far as to leave the Republican Party and become an Independant because he felt(in my belief) the republican party had sold out to the democrats. E-Mail him and let him know how you feel. mail to: opinion@smith.senate.gov
    You can also find your Congressmen/Senators at the following site and e-mail them also. http://www.gunowners.org/s106th.htm
    DO YOUR PART TO PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS!!!!
    Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
    Live Free or Die State, NH, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 17:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.64)
    As an after thought, I have added an addition screen name. I feel that these Politicians and Anti-gunners won't take comments from someone who uses screen name Bounyhnts seriuosly. Gee, now that I think about it, they will probably think NH1LiveFreeorDie is a joke too! Oh well, We shall see.
    Rick <NH1LiveFreeorDie@aol.com>
    Live Free or Die State, NH, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 19:33:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.32)
    All: On this militia thing. I am not sure this is the place to really discuss this topic. I agree in national service for all males between the age of 17 and 22. Something like what the Swiss have maybe. Gooch has the right idea but it MUST NOT be confused with the current militia situation. I believe he is not talking about a rabble of camo wearing wannabes who love conspiracy. His idea represents an organized and publically sanctioned force. That is quite a different animal from what exists today.

    We need to watch the militia talk. The last thing the SC staff needs is to be wrongly associated with the current meaning of milita - that of a rabble of skin headed morons who are as closed minded as the liberals they think they are going to defend against. We currently seem to have a good relationship with the law enforcement community, at least at the operational level. I do not want to see that tarnish by militia talk. Not that any of you are doing that. But it is a concern the staff needs to address.

    I am not trying to tell you what to discuss on the roster. Only that you need to keep in mind that it is open to all (LE, FBI, SS, DEA, ATF, Civilian, Jar heads, squids, what ever) and those who run SC have a responsibility to keep it on topic and out of the political rapids that have ripped this country apart. Feel free to voice opinion. We are not saying you have to avoid any topic that is related to the site, but there are sites aplenty for political rhetoric.

    We are the choir after all. Gun owners have one main fault. We like to preach to each other. If you want to get political, go forth and spread the word among those who do not visit here. Lord knows we do not do enough of that!

    Got to run. Had a run in with a deer tick and have to pick up proscrition. 21 days of antibiotics. Oh what fun...DEATH to BUGS.
    Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 19:51:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

    Still need opinion on best height for field bipod. Dumping the Loopahold for something that fold up and tip over. Want to get proper adjustable height.

    Last comment on the politics thing. I think all of us ought to run for office, any office anywhere. If nothing else we could really stir the pot and piss people off. I think that there are still alot of folks out there that are tired of having their individual freedoms taken away one at a time. Gun ownership, driving an SUV, smoking you name it. Second alternative would be for all the visitors to this site to show up at the national conventions with ghillies and camo on. HHHHHMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    PFC Bolt <reeldoc@mindspring.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 21:57:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.193)

    AR's the rattle of a bad upper and lower fit seems to be the only problem. The guns shoot fine either loose or tight.

    Militia: That word has become associated with extremists and nuts. I have never served in the Armed Forces, but I think the wounds I have suffered working a Police Officer give me the right to comment. The answer is not to arm the civilian population or make everyone go into either police or military service. Not everyone is cut out for it. I prefer to make the PD's and Military a place for the ones that want to do the jobs. Would you like someone protecting you that was forced to be there?

    The answer to our countries problems is in getting elected officals that stand up and are counted. The elected ones tend to go with what the public is pushing for or is preceieved to be pushing for. Currently a trend of disarming citizens is in the air. What I see is a great deal of winning about"Not my guns" but no one standing up and shouting "Hey I own guns and I'm OK"

    In 19 years in LE I can count on one hand where legally obtained weapons were used in a crime other than Suicides. The weapons tend to be stolen from persons or from the Military. In my area the only Assault Type Weapons used are the cheap ones (AKM's SKS's) With AR's going for 1200.00 plus, not many Gangbangers can buy one.

    Now when we talk of Militia's we fuel the fire that gunowners are nuts and need to be disarmed. This country has the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Local Police (Regular and Reserves), Sheriffs, State Police, DEA, National Guard, FBI, ATF, DOD and a whole bunch I forget. Do you think we really need an Orginized(?)Militia?

    Heck we have all the protection from armed invaders we could use. What we need is to get control of the direction the public image of guns is going. They see nuts with guns. They need to see shooting sports and family get togethers.

    Undude/Mike
    MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
    Calif, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 23:09:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.196)

    On the militia thing. Here in New Mexico we have a very interesting organization known as the New Mexico State Defense Force. This organization is US Army based for rules, regs. uniforms etc. and is 100% STATE RUN AND SPONSORED!!! This is also a 100% VOLUNTEER organization!! Neat part is they have NO FEDERAL CONNECTION, and one of their stated purposes is to - and I paraphrase - to take over the defense of the state if in a national emergency the National Guard is taken away from the state!! There are three (3) Brigades spread around the state. Anyone wants more information I'll get my son-in-law involved (he's a 2nd LT and the G-1 for Headquarters and Headquarters Company) and send you information off the Roster!
    This the kind of thing you talking about Gooch??

    Sarge

    Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
    Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, November 18, 1999 at 23:55:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.236)

    I've had no reply from Mr. NoBrai... ah, NoGuns.

    I'm hurt that nobody has picked up the gauntlet on my FAL postal match challenge. Biggest group wins.

    This was sent to me by my chum the Panama Canal pilot. Don't know where he got it. Copied and pasted for your enjoyment:

    "I guess it is not surprising that military heroic reputation is largely a function of publicity. Everybody knows who Alvin York was because Theodore Roosevelt wrote him up in fine style. Very few know of Sam Woodfill, who pulled off a very similar individual feat within a week of York's act, and also received the Medal of Honor. Likewise, everybody knows of Carlos Hathcock's achievements as a sniper in Vietnam, but very few know of Charles Mawhinney, who was also a sniper in Vietnam and ran up a slightly higher score than Hathcock (103 to 93). Hathcock had a book written about him, but Mawhinney did not. It is wrong to be competitive in these matters. Both of
    these Marines did splendid jobs, and the one does not rate precedence over the other. It is just to point out that you are a hero only if people say you are. If you do not get the notices, you do not lead the parade.

    An interesting sidelight on Mawhinney has to do with remounting his sight. When he took some leave, he left explicit instructions that no one was to mess with the zero on his rifle. When he went back to duty, he discovered his instructions had been disregarded and proceeded to miss on his first two shots. Moral: "When you get a good zero, leave it alone." I thought everybody knew that, but obviously I was wrong."
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Slightly off-topic question. I don't want to start something that takes up a lot of Roster space that as we all know sometimes goes to subjects that aren't very related, BUT.... I can't think of a better group to ask, and I have a chum who is trying to become the George Bull of spudguns. What rate of twist would you use in a spudgun barrel? No joke. If anyone has a science or experience-based suggestion, please Email it to me so that I am not barred from the Roster for asking! Thanks.

    Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
    XX, MI, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 00:42:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.147) 

    Sarge, yes the State Defense Forces are along the lines I'm talking about.

    Militia, militia, militia... See Scott, no harm. Kind of like the term SNIPER huh. Its the liberals that give negative meanings to legit terms.

    Militia or Terrorist
    Sniper or Assasin
    Soldier or Mercenary
    President or Pervert

    Ah what the hell...
    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 15:39:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.143) 

    Does anyone have load data for the 30-338 Win Mag using IMR 4350, and expected barrel life in a 26" heavy stainless tube (Krieger or Hart)? Cases will be necked down from virgin Win Super-X .338 Win Mags.
    Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
    Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 02:53:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17) 
    Pfc.Bolt Re: scope tripod
    The base of the GI issue M42A1 scope tripod is the ideal height.
    It is 5.25 inches from the ground to the top of the base when the legs are extended. It also fits perfectly in the M42A1 canvas carry case. The maximum height of the tripod is determined by how many extra extension rods you are willing to carry. The best thing about this tripod is that it makes a great rifle rest if you substitute a fork made out of cpvc 1/2 inch pipe and insert it into the center hole where the spotting scope usually goes. This can be carried separately. and used as needed. This elimates the need for a bipod altogether, and can be used for traverse against moving targets. I hope this helps.
    Steve <nato@bright.net>
    S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 02:56:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244) 
    Helllloo Choirr!! Just to add a thought or two to the Militia discussion, I would have you consider the following scenario: A small child has wandered off from a campground, it's getting colder, and the local Sheriff calls for volunteers to aid in the search. A couple hundred people from the area show up, search through the woods, find the child and happy ending. Now imagine some reporter from the local TV station standing in front of the camera and telling viewers that "the Sheriff called up the Militia to help with the search!" That is, after all, exactly what he did. To the public, "Militia" means "Terrorists" because the media has created that mindset. What it really means is everyone in the community looking after each other for the good of the community. Sorry for straying so far off subject.

    PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
    Columbia, MO, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 03:22:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.32) 

    Ned,

    That's from Cooper's Commentaries. Lot's of stuff finds it's way here from there. Love him or hate him, he's fun to read. See for yourself at...

    http://www.nps.gov/spar/m1gunb.html">http://www.cybersurf.co.uk/JeffCooper/

    ...hope I did that right.

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 03:51:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.156) 

    Damn the lack of training. Try this...

    RIGHT HERE

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 03:56:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.156) 

    Spud guns, Been there done that. Piezoelectric trigger (spell that grill starter) and hairspray launching 2 diameter potato's at over 110ft/s. Twist?! don't do it unless you neck the spud gun down to less than 1" otherwise it'll yank that sport shooter right out of your hands. At that point 1 turn every 2 foot. Just saw a gatlin spud shooter last weekend, spark plug wires, distributor and all. I'm trying to make an auto-loader.

    Tom
    Tom <tscott@dominionsc.com>
    here, & there, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 04:03:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.111.50.33) 

    Pete and Pablito;

    Removing the burrs don't change a thing. Between the time that dope meant acting, well uh not to smart and todays how to set up to hit what you aim at. Grams was used by us freaks in the USA. But since I found some compadres I will convert to grains.

    Winchester: 154.6 to 158.2grains =3.6spread
    Remington: 167.9 to 171.9grains =4.0spread
    Lapau: 172.2 to 174.2grains =2.0spread
    Federal GM: 173.5 to 176.1grains =2.5spread

    Now you tell me which should I buy. It may not seem like alot but the top two on the list were on the bottom when it comes to visual inspect. I'm buying Lapau from now on.

    Tom
    tom <tscott@dominionsc.com>
    here, & there, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 04:12:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.111.50.33) 

    Gooch / PaulS: I agree with you both, totally. It's not always what you say, but how you say it. A good Sheriff or game Warden will always keep in touch and have good rapport with the local "Militia". That's what they are there for, to help out in crisis. I know this is the 90's and we're are supposed to be "politically correct" (whatever that means.)Guess I'm just from the "Old School" and can still remember back when the air was clean and sex was dirty.
    Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
    NH, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 04:25:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.62) 
    Back from Mother in Laws funeral to find lots of worms running everywhere. Gooch; Must agree on mandantory Mil Service only thing was it caused a lot of class distinction and problems with the rich avoiding it. That's neither here nor there I believe your right in principle.
    Mike; True the word Militia is being distorted like Assault Rifles and it is important we all understand the the Militia as the Constitution mentions it is somewhat misunderstood. It says that it should be "well regulated". In the context of the times that probably meant well trained in the use of firearms since that is what they were talking about. As I said previously the Militia is a threat to total control and tyranny. Visualize Tenemin square if everyone that showed up had a AK-47. Militia does not mean a bunch of tax protesters or disenters although it was that precise type of individual that caused and fought the revolution that formed the constitution in the first place. I would be hard to exclude them completely with that in mind. The whole and total American Militia does and must consist of all American Citizens dedicated to protect this country against the evils of tyranical forces of Government foreign or domestic as the last line of defense. I like Gooch's idea that everyone that served by required to keep weapons and supplies to accomplish that means. The real problems come from the cowards who simply can't live with the idea that they might be called upon to defend their own family and least of all their ideals with their own lives. They prefer to strip everyone of their ability to do that so that they won't stand out as the cowards they are. "Here honey you take the gun! It might be illegal for me to protect you."
    Paul S. The Missouri Militia has offered to aid in searches and rescue operations and trains for it regularly as well as survival of things like y2k but has never been called upon or even allowed to participate in such operations. Let's face it the Law Enforcement community looks on anything calling themselves a militia as subversives. It goes with the territory. Anything formed here would be under the same rules. I guess you would have to say they just don't get the Porto Grande. They are trained to think that way and the media feeds it like peanuts to Monkeys that don't think for themselves.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 05:04:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252) 
    One more thing! Thought you'd never ask...
    The only way these rogue Militia's can ever be a real threat is through terriorism and then they become terrorists and should be treated as such by the agencies and the real people's Militia.
    They can only gain control if they can control one of the standing armies we already have such as the FBI etc. or in the case that the foolish agencies get their way and disarm the real Militia that is the armed average everyday citizen.
    Let's not fall prey to letting the word Militia become a tool of those who would make everything cherished by a free people into a politically incorrect term. To refuse to talk about it here or anyone else because of that would be falling into that trap and a surrender of your 1st ammendment rights without so much as a struggle.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 05:27:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252) 
    And for you Rick; tsk tsk.
    SEX was never,is never dirty unless your doin it right!
    Buy you books and buy you books and you rip the X's right off the cover.
    What is the country comin too.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 05:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252) 
    Re: Rifle Tripods

    Contact <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM> and ask him about his adapter that turns a camera tripod into a neat rifle rest. He gave me a sample at Hathcock II and it works great! Waiting for my friend on the ABQ PD to get back so's he can evaluate it also.

    Sorry it took so long to comment on this fine piece of gear, Pete. Only got back to NM a few weeks ago and it took this long to get to the range.

    I'm interested in the FAL Postal Match, if we can shoot for smallest 10 shot groups! Send rules to my e-mail. I'll pass them on to Jarrett and other interested parties!

    Best Regards....
    Bruce Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
    Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 06:35:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.122.94) 

    SORRY!

    Link didn't work....contact "PNGREIFF@AOL.COM" for info on the tripod adapter.
    Bruce Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
    Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 06:42:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.122.94) 

    Tom...

    "Removing the burrs don't change a thing.."

    I never said removing the burrs changed anything... it's just one of those things compulsive benchrest (and very skinny) shooters do, because it makes them feel better... :))

    ... and buy whatever brass you want... that's not my decission.

    Pablito

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 13:31:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.139) 

    Tom,

    If you have them all (brass), load the same powder charge, primer, projectile, and OAL and see which gives the lowest velocity spreads, sD, ES [etc. etc.] and MOST CONSISTANT shot groupings.

    You have then found your winner!

    'Lito,

    Oh Behave!

    Bruce,

    Thanks for the kind words, I glad it worked for you.

    Chao!
    peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
    BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 15:10:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.209) 


    Gunstock question: A while back, a fellow posted his method for pillar bedding and bedding in general. Friend, you mentioned using a mill to rout out the stock. Could you, or anyone else with info, pass along how you Held down or clamped the stock?

    Upon seeing the anti-gun info posted, I came across the book, "50 Things You Can Do To Get Rid Of Guns" by Murray, I think it was. He raises a lot of salient points, but I hardly agree with his overall scheme. Interesting to browse over how the thinking is on that side.
    Look for it at the library. Please don't buy this book. Especially entertaining is the "Buy Back" chapter. Covers everything but the money.
    Am I the only one to find it interesting that the folks who typically give the 1st amendment such a liberal interpretation, and bring us things like "pissChrist" and Ice T's "Copkiller", are usually the same ones howling about a liberal interp. of the 2nd?

    Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
    Portkand, Or., USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 20:51:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.85) 

    A friend E-mailed me a picture of 3 very naughty deer. E-mail me and if I don't botch it, I'll Fwd it to you. Better get all the important stuff done before we have to run for the hills, nudge,nudge.
    Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
    Yeh, Yeh, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 20:56:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.85) 
    I have 2 questions, and since I don't get to check the Duty Roster much any more, please e-mail responses directly to me at tmelick@yahoo.com so I can get them. Thanks.

    1) Does anyone have a good source for some military TM's and FM's that are harder to find?

    2) How do you qualify to buy ammo from the CMP?

    Thanks,
    B. Melick
    tmelick@yahoo.com

    B. Melick <tmelick@yahoo.com>
    Dallas, TX, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 21:37:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 146.163.186.223) 

    Don,

    I my self carry a shotgun along with my M700. The only drawback is the xtra weight of ammo and the bulk of an xtra thing hanging off of you. My .308 weighs in at a stiff 15lbs. The M-590 is a mere 5lbs but that gets off set by the 100 rounds of buck shot and slugs I carry with it. I generally only carry 100rns of .308 (7.62NATO) for the main tube anyway. I only weigh in at 140 so you can see where weight is a major factor for me. As far as trackers go, I will set up fake wires and trips to slow them down and hide the real stuff so they REALLY slow down when they set one off (simulators for those who might misunderstand). I will also "J" turn and wait for them to stick their head out, that works.
    Wheel gun, I've had miss fires before and Murphy likes to fu-- with you when you least ecpect it. The .44 Mag goes through trees better than a smaller round does too. When I do carry an auto I like my Glock 19 or Glock 29 10mm. I have 48 weapons to choose from, so the only delema is what to take. My collection is highly specialized, for every possible scenario that I can think of. If I had a class 3 license, things would be very interesting indeed. I would carry a Berreta 93 for fun.
    I am trying to develop counter tracking techniques, but I have few of like mind willing to "play" in the dirt. One thing though, I LOVE GUNS and no one I mean no one can have enough. Its like puss- can't get enough! If any of you ever been to the Phillipines you know what I mean!
    Semper Fi!
    Bad Karma
    Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.co,>
    USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 21:55:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.35) 

    Backpacks with soft and frame packs what is the best? I have a Alice I
    use as a pure ruck sack it's ok I want to take it and put it on a external pack frame near the bottom of the frame.But now I look at
    the Eagle Industries web sight and see there BECKER PATROL PACK and I
    like what I see.It seams with a soft frame pack I have a old LOWE
    internal frame "soft pack" that you sweat a lot more it hugs on more
    of my back but the load is closer so your center of gravity is closer
    than a external pack.I looked in Hot Tips and Cold Shots for any input on the subject and could not find any thing on packs.Also I'm
    still a semi couch potato to many suds and salsa I want to see a section about fittnes for the shooter and looter we all wana be!!!!!!
    DON'T COME TO CALIFORNIA IF YOUR A AR-15,LIA1,GALIL,OR SATURDAY NIGHT
    OWNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net>
    Los Gatos, Stalinfornia, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 22:33:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.112) 

    Here's a website you should all check out. These people are putting out good pro self-defense radio ads and soon print ads. This is the kind of thing we should all support.

    citizensofamerica.org
    James <jbarrier@juno.com>
    WA, USA - Friday, November 19, 1999 at 22:37:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.82.215.2) 

    Question for SWAT application. Is there any "pro" info on shooting through glass such as vehicle and/or building windows? My team has done informal shooting of this type only.
    Primarily .308, .223 and 45acp.
    Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
    Kenosha, WI, USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 00:33:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.7.26.148) 
    Gunstock question: A while back, a fellow posted his method for pillar bedding and bedding in general. Friend, you
    mentioned using a mill to rout out the stock. Could you, or anyone else with info, pass along how you Held down or
    clamped the stock?

    That was me. I use a standard 6" mill vice, pad the stock by lining the jaws with a layer or two of making tape. If the stock has alot of drop at the butt, put the vise on the end of the bed so the butt can hand off the side. It doesnt take much pressure to hold the stock securely, there is little cutting force when you cut fiberglass. clamp the stock right around the action. I use a 4 flute endmill, spin it fast, second from the highest setting on an Old Bridgport, about 80% on a new one with a vari-speed. Probaly somewhere around 1500 RPM. Use a shop vac to suck up the fiberglass, dont use an air hose to blow it out, 'glass iches bad, trust me, I work in a boat shop. I use my eyeballs and a machinist level to level it out. Anything else, email me direct.

    Mike
    mike S <mws@ecom.net>
    kommi, Fornia, USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 02:18:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.189) 

    Binos

    Looking for suggestions on Binoculars for my drag bag and general use. Need to be waterproof and durable, I don't baby equiptment. Right now looking along the lines of Steiner 8x30G. Long eye relief is necessary as I wear glasses. Would like to keep it under $400. Thanks.

    Mike
    mike S <mws@ecom.net>
    theres go more of my rights,, Kalifornia, USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 02:26:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.189) 

    Gooch, et al,

    I, too, read the drivel on the Goodbyeguns site. Then I sent the email giving my, honestly, rational opinion on the issue.

    As for the organized response, count me it, too!!!

    Semper Fi!
    Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
    Callery, PA, USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 03:07:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.56) 

    Unless I screwed up, the link to the gun-rights organization James refers to is...
    CitizensOfAmerica
    It looks like it may be worth checking out.

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 03:34:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.89) 

    All:
    My lovely and caring wife has been trying to contact TRGT.com to provide me with my anniversary treats and has received no answer via phone or e-mail.This means that I ain't gettin' my slope doper and log book as requested.Anybody know how to get a response from these guys?
    Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
    Texas, USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 03:48:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.29) 
    Questions........

    Best rust preventitive spray for exterior surfaces?

    Now that we've had the debate on AR and AK stuff, I would like to know the following:

    What are the most common causes of jambs in either weapon and how do you avoid them?

    How do you clear a hot round and how do you know if the round is hot without pulling the bolt back and exposing the primer. This sounds a right much dangerous.

    Does anyone sell a good quality spare parts kit for the AR and AK?

    On long range for a change.......

    How do you change camo on your rifles for each season without building up thick layers of paint?

    How do you change ghillie camo for each season, from greens to browns? Do you build two suits?

    How do you camo your brass?

    Compensation for and shooting through sleet?

    Does anyone take the time to plan for shots over 1000 yards or has this just become the standard for the max of the 308 round?

    My eyesight for dusk and dark is getting worse and I may have to start wearing specs all the time. How do you camo your face with specs on?
    Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
    USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 03:52:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.43.44) 

    Attn:Bad Karma
    What do you think of the old M1 carbine as a back up. It's cheap, light, very compact with the para stock, and ammo. is relitavly light. Only problem I see is the under powered round.I have heard of people rechambering it for more potent rounds like the 50AE. Thats over kill if you ask me. What about chambering one for the .357 mag? Ammo would be common with the wheel gun. If I could come up with a folding stock carbine in that chambering I would DX the Sig for a 4" 686.
    Tracking/countertracking
    Button hook by all means but would you dump the dog or the handler? I have heard it both ways.Don't forget to sprinkle a little dog treat around when you are laying (simulators) ceyanne and black pepper mixed in one of the big shaker dealies you get at Sams club etc.CS powder even better.
    Reloading in the field and battle field recovery
    I know SOTIC teaches it. I think they use the Lee pocket loader.Anyone have any information????
    Don
    Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
    USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 06:02:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.177.58.153) 
    RCBS finally has a website.

    Its tough to mobilize even people who have a vested interest in defending their 2nd Amendment Rights. Check the archives. I tried a little of it here earlier. The response I got was a pop and no kick. Those who did respond did an admirable job but as far as general interest and support go, I'd give it an F.

    Just for fun, I'll say it again: Go ask someone today, "How would you like to join the NRA for free for 1 year?" Go ahead and pay for their membership. It may be the best $25 you spend this year. You guys don't think twice about plopping down 2 or 3 thousand bucks for a SWS. Some of us will contend that those lazy bastards should fund their own memberships but the fact is, they won't. Its easier not to. Sound familiar? Every time I turn on the news I cringe, waiting to see who shot up another office or school, leaving "our culture" to take the credit. When you lead these potential members by the hand they will be exposed to the NRA message each month for a year through a professional format. Now, you won't feel like you have to preach to them every time you see them and they won't think, "Here comes that whining gun nut again." Some may renew on their own, others may fall over and kick their legs in the air. Don't have a conniption fit. When this happens, your mission is clear: Go get a new member to replace the one we lost. This is your fight. Don't expect someone to do it for you. The NRA is the strongest political lobby force we have going for us presently. If they pissed you off previously, be a man and put it aside. Go ask someone today, "How would you like to join the NRA for free for 1 year?"

    Mike is right about not drafting people into the military / police forces. Even the ones who want to be there aren't always the cream of the crop. Being forced into service wouldn't tend to bring out the best of a person's intentions. Let's stick with our current method but just make service life / opportunity good enough that people would kill to get in. What's your freedom worth?

    Is there any future for the Christiansen-style carbon-wrapped lightweight rifle barrels for our military sniper weapons? Maybe they wouldn't stand up to rough use.
    Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
    Ogden, KS, USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 11:38:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.175) 

    Paul;excellent idea on the complimentary NRA memberships let's em know your serious about it without being a pest.
    Mike; Used the 8X30's a long time. They are good. I have worn the covering off crawling through the brush and low crawling through rough ground. But I just covered them with camo tape and they still are in use. The Steiners are good if your spotting game or targets with them but other's focus sharper if it survelence of something. I have taken to a pair of Nikon Sprint's for their size and clarity for some applications. They are good even late at night. The ones I have are 8X20 and are pretty rugged for about $75.00. I now use them hunting predators for their low profile and one hand operation.
    Karma; Sounds like your overloaded with ammo. Would have to be a real bad situation or a long course to require 100 rounds of 12ga. Depends on whether it's a battle or scout situation I guess. Most Sniper's I've heard of carry about 60 to 80 rounds max and that's a lot for a bolt gun. Thing about ammo is that you can always dump it if you have too. There again depending on the situation.
    M1 carbine; is a nice little weapon but a .223 such as the Mini 14 is just as accurate and affective and ammo is lighter.
    Bolt; best way to avoid Jams is to avoid the AR;but that's dirty pool on my part. Always assume it's a live round if it's really hard to get out. A fired cartridge will rarely be left in there in it's entireity especially in the AR-15. The head is usually broken off or something else will tip you off. Sometimes a cartridge breaks in half and the forward half stays in. The next hot round jams into it but in that case the jam is usually clearable. Trouble comes in when a cartridge won't go home and that little Mickey Mouse forward assist has been used. Then you have a real problem. The upper and lower won't come apart so your in bad shape try to break it open and get the hammer out of the picture at least but the firing pin is still right there. Sometimes you can get a screw driver between the bolt and the chamber and pry the case off the extractor without ruining the extractors but it usually involves breaking the rim on the cartridge in bad cases. Then your only choice is down through the muzzle with a rod... a bad business anyway you look at it. I don't know what the Military recommends... of course there isn't a problem so they probably don't deal with it. IF you have to drive that round out from the muzzle be sure something cushions it when it comes out less the primer be set off on something. Shivvver! Scott is expert on these things. e-mail him direct if he doesn't respond here.
    Karma; My humble opinion is that the .40 S&W is the best compromise for a fighting handgun and a Sniper Back up weapon. 9MM is dead weight in my book and the .45 is too heavy to carry and crawl with. The Glock 23 is my choice but it's just that... a choice.

    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 15:09:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252) 

    Doggie treats? Meat and match-heads. It's not very nice, but it's not as bad as shooting them. A well trained dog won't go for it.

    Dog or tracker? With human pursuers any one human's senses are redundant. If there's many of them, they can lose a couple and still be effective. If they lose the dog they lose abilities that are irreplacable in the field.

    When you shoot a guy's dog, you piss him off.

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 15:43:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.10) 

    Got my latest issue of ARMAS magazine today. That's a little puzzling as I haven't been getting them for 2 years or so. It's a pretty high-class gun magazine out of Spain. I have written a few articles for them and part of my compensation was the subscription. Anyway-- it has an article about a Russian .308 precision rifle, the Pekopa-1. Heavy barrel, adjustable everything in the laminated stock. Pretty neat looking rig, made for target shooting, comes with diopter sights. Has anybody seen these in the States, and if so, who has them?
    Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
    XX, MI, USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 17:47:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.128) 
    Bruce E: If I'm not mistaken, Gooch has some involvement with TRGT either as a partner or some other affiliation. Try to get a hold of him.

    Bolt: Man, do you own an AR? If so, why don't you simply check with your rifle's manufacturer first? I'm sure they'd have what you are looking for. I've personnally had good luck with Bushmaster products. They have just about anything you'd ever want for an AR.

    Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
    Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 18:18:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.222.7.4) 

    Thanks to all who responded to my TRGT query,thats one of the things thats great about this forum,someone is always there to help.We all know how hard it is to get your spouse to buy you shooting gear and it's made more difficult when it's a pain in the ass for her.This can ultimately lead to more socks and underwear.

    What about those thermo-anemometers? Only one of you uses them? Surely not.

    Thanks again guys.
    Bruce E. <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
    Texas, USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 18:55:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.29) 

    Guys just visited the guntruth.com site. Its good to go. Think we should throw in with them instead of starting our own thing.

    Also, we at TRGT are working on getting our customer service up to where we want it. It's tough when everyone has another career to keep a small side buisness going to. Just ask the guys that run this site. We should have it fixed in a month or so. Thanks for your support.

    Out here.
    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Saturday, November 20, 1999 at 20:32:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163) 

    I am getting ready to do a camouflage paint job on my McMillan M40 and need some information. I do not have access to an oven large enough to do one of the bake on jobs such as found in Brownells catalog. What is the best paint to use for the entire rifle including stock as well as metal parts?Will I have trouble with paint sticking to the stainless barrel? Is it best to apply a base color to ensure that everything is covered and protected, and then add the camouflage pattern? Is there a clearcoat that is suitable? Can I apply paint to my ARD without effecting it's function. I know that the flip ups are an area often overlooked and I think blending in the ARD will eliminate that black circle of the objective lens.
    I am still looking for opinions on field reloading using the Lee pocket loader.
    Thanks,
    Don
    Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
    USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 02:40:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.177.58.49) 
    Gooch: Are you sure about that the url is guntruth.com? I'm getting nothing.

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 05:29:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.143) 

    CDC et all: I believe the right honorable Mr. Gooch meant to type
    www.guntruths.com

    Don: A light misting of spray paint on the ARD should not be a problem. The key is to not let paint run down inside the honey-combs and further reducing light transmission. For these reasons my suggestion is to dry it paint side down (hell, paint it upside-down if you make a jig for it).

    By the way, has anyone heard from Dean M. lately? Seems like I haven't seen a post from him in a long while.

    Enjoy the weekend all.
    [OUT]
    Colin <thermoptic@hotmail.com>
    Socalist Republik of, Kalifornia, USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 05:51:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.59.12.103) 

    Bolt,

    Real interesting article in the November issue of Precision Shooting. It pertains to the effect of rain, etc., on a projectile in flight. It might help 'clear' up your question on shooting in sleet.

    Good luck!

    Semper Fi!
    Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
    Callery, PA, USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 12:42:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158) 

    Hello Sniper Country! I have been gone for some time due to work and other related items. I now have SIX Grandkids! I wanted to stop by and wish all of you a very happy Thanksgiving and all the best in the days to come. I hope all is well with everyone. I miss all of you, especially that old Thorsten guy from Germany! Keep the Jell-o in the hot tub young man. Keep your powder dry and for God's sake, CHECK SIX!

    Out here,

    Gramps
    Gramps <mojoed@cherco.net>
    Upstate, SC, USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 16:02:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.198.37.105) 

    On the AR... I once heard that the first issued ammunition for the M16A1 contained Calcium Carbonate, added becuase some genius thought it would stabilize the degredation of nitric acid-based smokeless powders in the hot jungle environment, the idea being that the base would neutralize the acid. The problem being, every time the weapon was fired, it coated the internals with calcium carbonate, which didn't burn too readily. So a weapon would quickly become unuseable due to "lime-buildup". Maybe some one with more historical knowledge than I can either confirm or deny this...
    S. Strapac <strapac@mindspring.com>
    Bay Area, CA, USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 16:23:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.203.250) 
    Just wanted to add to the "political" discussion on guns...

    No matter who you are, civy, LE, or military, your personal use of weapons are at stake. For those professionals, your type of weapon and the use of it are at risk as well.

    If this forum and all others like it don't step forward and raise the level of attention to this matter to much greater hights, then all use of guns, private or professional, will be curtailed greatly.

    When people talk of the anti-gun crowd, the topic always seems to be greeted with the "not in my sandbox" mentality. People are afraid to be labled as "gun nuts", or something to that effect.

    Good for Gooch to say "militia, militia, militia!".

    Stand up for what you beleive, you cowards! How dare you say that you are professional weapons operators willing to do what is neccessary to defend this country, but then back down from a bunch of liberal bullies because you are afraid of a bunch of name calling! The effect the liberals want is already on a dast roll. What more harm can discussing the issue cause?

    Talk about this subject openly. This may be a forum for perofessional operators, but this anti-gun subject encompasses professionals as well.

    No one needs wacko militants on this or any other site, as we all agree they do no good, but to totally not want to discuss this issue means we are all doomed to the ideas of these bullies.

    "...defend this nation from all enemies, foreign and domestic." So, when are you going to start doing that?

    Hank <rhenry@rhythms.net>
    USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 16:23:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.12.168.23) 

    Sorry dudes the web site I mentioned is www.guntruths.com

    Saw a PRO-GUN story on New York Channel 2 (CBS) last night on the 10 O'clock news. The reporter was busting on the NYPD for approving handgun permits for the rich and famous but turning them down for normal joes. The official responce was that they were trying to keep the number of guns down. Geee, I thought the purpose of licenses was to ensure people that needed guns were trained, law abiding etc not to limit numbers.

    Anybody been catching the NRA spot on Americas Voice Network? I get it on Dish Network. SHows the results of Australia, England and Canada's latest gun control efforts. Makes you think.

    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 16:36:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.145)


    Thier web site is www.cbs2ny.com if anyone else wants to pat them on the back.
    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 17:07:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.145) 
    Strapac...

    It was Potassium Carbonate, and it was added to suppress flash.
    It would build up in the gun, and because of the high humidity, would become caked, and would not "blow out" of the gun.

    Some thoughts on mandatory service, or draft...

    The biggest reason for the draft, is to make sure people from all (or at least "most") classes have understanding of the military.
    As it stands now, more and more of the politicians have no understanding of the needs of the military services…
    Many of the current politicians are urban yuppies that went to ivy league schools, and because Russia has collapsed, they see no need for more than a token military force.
    Because of the "class" system of the volunteer military, and the public image of the services, left over from Viet Nam, and currently perpetuated by the media, few in the political system can speak to the needs of the military any more.
    These people that have never had exposure to firearms, never had to defend them selves, or their country, and have never studied the Constitution, and Federalist Papers, can't see any need for the public to own firearms.

    Gooch...

    Totally disagree with your comment about citizens militias being dangerous.
    The Federalist Papers, and essays written about the Constitution, by the framers and writers at the time, clearly make the case that their idea of a militia was "armed rabble", and not government formed or led groups.

    The purpose of the militia was not to repel the foreign invaders or the Russians, it was to overthrow our own government, if it got out of control, and declared itself a dictatorship.

    If your militia is run by - controlled by - or otherwise sponsored by the government, it looses it's main purpose.
    Castro promised elections the year after he took over, then went house to house, and dis-armed his "militia".... and that was 40 years ago.
    Throughout Europe, in the 30's and 40's, nation after nation fell, because their "militias" were on paper, and their firearms were listed in town hall... (Kalifornia - New York... does this sound a familiar bell?).

    In order to have the type of militia that could fill the purpose that the framers intended... they must be independent of the government, and unregistered.

    Consider the film, "Red Dawn"... lousy film, improbable scenario, but right on, when it comes to who will be there if it really goes bad...
    ... or if some president likes the job SOooo much, he just can't give it up.
    He's declaring a state of emergency, and suspension of the Constitution "... for the good of the country"

    Roosevelt suspended the Constitution during WW-1, so it ain't impossible, and that is exactly how Hitler got into power... he suspended the German constitution, collected all the guns (which were registered to prevent crime), gave then to his "friends" and the rest is history.

    During WW-2, it was the "armed rabble" (also known as 'Partisans' or 'The Underground') that wore out Hitler's troops... The might of Russia couldn't beat the "armed rabble" in Afghanistan... and it was the "armed rabble" in Viet Nam, not the NVA, that ran us out of 'Nam (with the help of the same Democrats that sent us there).

    So don't sign me up for the "Oh-fish-ul" militia...
    ...if it goes really bad, I'll do just fine with the help of my "Armed Rabble" friends, thank you!

    Pablito

    Pablito <condor@mag.net>
    USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 17:34:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.118)

    Hey Guys, Sorry, the name of the book I referred to is "50 Things You Can Do About Guns." Sorry if any confusion.
    Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
    PDX, Or., USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 23:02:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)
    Hey Guys, Sorry, the name of the book I referred to is "50 Things You Can Do About Guns." Sorry if any confusion.
    Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
    PDX, Or., USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 23:02:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)
    I am looking for a good match trigger for my AR-15. If anyone knows where I can get one or who makes them please email me. thanks.
    Nick <hkmp5_2222@yahoo.com>
    salt lake, utah, USA - Sunday, November 21, 1999 at 23:45:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.70.7.211)
    AR parts questions are answered here...
    BINGO!!

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Monday, November 22, 1999 at 01:39:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.107)

    Good point on the militia, Pablito.

    Main problem with most militias now is simply the people who are in them. The ones I am aware of around here are filled with morons that couldn't find their way out of a trailer with a twister coming.

    I say we start one from the duty roster...get MikeM to liberate a couple hundred badges...we will be on our way:)

    Old Dog
    Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 04:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

    "Don't need no stinkin badgeees!
    Sorry counldn't resist that one Bruce.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 04:17:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
    Hey, 'Yote bait...

    If you're gonna' be "armed rabble" you gotta' get it right!...
    it goes -

    "Baadgees? What Baadgees? We don' need no steeenkin' baadgees!

    El Pablito, De los banditos grandes!

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    From somewhere in the Sierra Madre mountains..., Tijuana, Mexico - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 06:16:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.139)

    Old Dog...

    I think, in part, the reason the only militias we hear about, are the the ones that are a bit "flakey" is because of the nature of the media...
    ... it makes a good 5 minutes on the CBS 6:00 news, if some group of neo-Nazis in the Missouri Breaks country, is stock piling MRE's... to the TV news, it's a "Militia Group"... in fact, to the media, everyone woth w 4WD, a gun, or who goes camping, is part of some hidden militia group... it's another thing for the public and the Yuppies to "Worry about".
    The armed Koreans in East L.A., during the Rodney King thing, did just what they were supposed to, protecting their (and others) property, until the government told them to go home (and everyone lost everything!!)
    If there was a really large militia in Kalif, there wouldn't have been $4,000,000,000 in damage, and 60+ dead... Ol' Rodney would have simply appealed the decission, and life would have gone on.

    The sane militias outnumber the flakey ones, probably 10 to 1 (not an area of expertese for me)... but you'll never hear about them, even when they do something outstanding, like find some lost child in the desert.

    CBS has had a standing policy for over 25 years, to never show anything positive relating to private ownership of firearms... you won't even see the Olympic shooting events covered.

    Pablito.

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 06:42:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.139)

    'Lito's right. You ever see ANY olympic shooting on a national network? That, of course, is due to the fact that we're all nuts. Or so they think. I heard that there are something like 7 legal civilian pistols in Japan. Olympic team only. Guess someone should tell the thugs and their victims.

    As to "rabble", that was the way it was written. When I was talking to Jeff Cooper about this, he basically said that the idea was sound, but didn't want to be associated with some of the completely unprofessional attitudes of SOME of the people. That was the big goal of the Michigan militia not that long ago, to get rid of loonies. I think I remember seeing something in that FBI report Master Gooch turned us to reporting this as truth. Now as to being part of the rabble, guess now I am. Would I tell a loonie I didn't want him in the field with me? You bet. I did some that I had no control over, might as well. That's the whole answer here. SELF maintaining, SELF regulating, SELF sufficient and SELF reliant militias, simply because teamwork means success, and a wacko backing you up means you get "friendly" fire or worse.

    For those who question what the JFK center for political warfare said years ago (if only 10% of a population is willing to take action, they can effectively decimate a standing government) remember the liberator 45 pistol and it's effective use by partisans.

    Need I say anything about registration? Guess I have to. It's illegal. You can't make anyone pay anything to exercise a right. Do you have to pay a voters registration fee? Pretend it's anti-nike. Just Don't Do It. That's what the supreme court ruled on - see Jim Crow laws (although I'm not a lawyer, or play one on TV).
    Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
    Cedar City, Utah, Freedom for all - USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 08:11:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

    Gooch do you know Max F. Joseph USMC Scout Sniper Instructor. And Alan J. Brosnon SAS guy working for the U.S. Dept of State Anti Terrorism Assistance Program. They work for T.E.E.S. Tactical Explosive Entry School. They have training in the US and Brazil. LeMay OUT
    LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
    MICH, USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 08:54:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)
    Milita's
    I would be willing to bet my last dollar that there are groups out there right now who are just as organized as any militia, with hand picked people, who are probably mostly ex-military or self tought in survival skills. Each man is responsible for his own gear and when the time comes they would simply band togeather and protect what was theirs. They don't talk about it in public and they don't train openly togeather, there may be even some of you on this sight who are part of such a group. Anyone want to bet??? Smart people who want to survive will not openly join a group that will draw attention to themselves, because they know if something does go down, those will be the first ones who get snapped up in the middle of the night and wake up in a prision cell. Just my thoughts on it.
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 09:26:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
    Si Pabilito, me screw up agaain! AThat's why they pay you the beeg bucks!
    No Mr. Pat No! me don't wanna bet with you!
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 10:06:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
    M 1 Carbines
    Regarding using M1 carbines-
    If any of you intend to shoot a carbine of military or civilian origin, I STRONGLY suggest you obtain and thoroughly read a copy of the Jerry Kuhnhausen Shop Manual on the U.S. .30 Caliber Gas Operated Carbines by Heritage Gun Books at VSP Publishers, Box 887 , McCall, ID 83638.
    I leafed through a copy of this book at a gun show this weekend ; a very sobering read.
    I was considering buying one of the many reconditioned M1 Carbines on the market. Not now.
    If I buy an M1 carbine as a shooter, it will be built using a Springfireld Armory receiver.

    Gun Shows
    Being out of the gun show loop for a few years really gave me a few surprises this weekend.
    Went to what was a large gun show in Illinois. I was amazed by the small amount of firearms and ammunition for sale. The ATF has certainly reduced the number of dealers over the last five years.
    Lots of crafts, Beenie Babies and knives.

    Post George Bush Sr. / pre- Brady AK’s are back up to Brady Bill prices.
    AR magazines were much fewer in number and three times the prices I recall a few years ago- and most were in well used condition.
    Steel aftermarket AR mags being the exception.
    One dealer was asking ten dollars each for RUSTY- and I don’t mean a spot of rust here and there-
    30 round AK magazines.
    On top of that, the show is under attack by the local government bureaucrats as “ unwholesome” and
    in danger of being banned.
    Thinking back about the call for banning gun shows - gun show customers over the years were mostly white.
    Many black and Hispanic customers now have more disposible income and are more frequently seen at gun shows.
    Oddly enough, the calls for banning shows started a couple of years after more minorities started to participate in significant numbers.
    I seem to be the only one commenting about this curious occurrence.
    Please don’t misunderstand.
    To paraphrase a recent speech by the Reverend Jesse Jackson - I’m not saying the gun show bans are racially motivated.
    Too many bureaucrats dislike the idea of citizens owning firearms.
    Harder to coerce the constituents.
    Appealing to self- interest, cajoling, and sometimes reason - must be used rather than force.
    Very time consuming and inconvenient.

    Organizing Gun Owners
    The best I can say at this point is this-
    Organizing gun owners is like herding cats.
    Most gun owners won’t tear themselves away from their TV sets and food unless they feel immediately endangered.
    Then again, no different than other Americans.
    Personal debt is up due to too many people using credit cards to buy WAY over their heads.
    Contributions will be hard to get due to personal debt, self-interest and fragmented lobbying efforts.
    The gun lobby organizations are too busy bickering about who should be in the spotlight as leader.
    Ego and selfishness will kill us as surely as bullets.
    The gun lobby groups are not able to tax members for political contributions - unlike traditional methods used by some powerful lobbying groups.

    What groups succeed and why?
    The AARP for one
    How did the AARP achieve success?
    The AARP Scares the Hades out of it’s members via propaganda.
    The “ seasoned citizens “ take the time to vote per AARP directions - EVERY TIME.
    The AARP demonstrates that the group is organized.
    The politicians know it.
    Maybe check with some marketing specialists, how do they sell their products?
    Want to succeed ?
    Note the success of other organizations and emulate their methods.
    Start small, one local election at a time.
    Be prepared for a long hard fight.

    One good thing about the World Wide Web... we can use it for an end run around the big bucks media.
    The politicians KNOW IT.
    The politicians want to control the internet because of this factor.
    The more people go on line, the better our chances.
    Politics, gotta love it.
    Had my say....

    Six more Illinois Secretary of State Drivers License Bureau employees arrested last week in the ever widening driver licenses for sale scandal. Da Gov. not yet implicated in the corruption of his former department. Stay tuned....

    Utgardaloki
    Somewhere in the land of Ryan.

    Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 10:35:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

    Utgardaloki...

    I'm not sure I want to start a M1 Carbine thread... and I've not read the book you mentioned... but I've fired a truck load of ammo through M1 Carbines, many with 3 speed transmissions, and I've yet to have one fail or jam... not one round!

    And Mr Pat...

    No seree... I'm with 'Yote bate. I won't take that bet, even with long odds...

    Pablito.
    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 11:06:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60)

    Pablito:
    What ammo you got going through that carbine? Don't get me wrong, I love the thing, but I've not found any RELIABLE ammo besides GI ball.
    I tried some reloads with speer 308 cal 110 gr JHP's (the one with half the bullet exposed lead) and couldn't make it reliable for love or money. I would LOVE to hear anyone's RELIABLE load other than GI ball! I have to say though, with ball or equivalent loads, it's a TRUE 100% reliable. I just want something that has either a expanding bullet or soft lead (more than the 110 gr round nose) bullet, but with a good base because lead bullets nasty that thing up mui pronto.

    To those who think the carbine round is a pip-squeak:
    Try again. At the distances the carbine would be used, it outclasses the 5.56 and is more compact than even the XM177 if you have the para stock on it! Sure, it'll keep 1 MOA to 800 yards all day, or at least until you wake up that is. But at ranges where most "rifle fights" occur (less than 200 yds) it's a minute of target carbine. My stock is one of the old choate side folders, which I would trade off if I found something better. For a perimeter rifle, you can't beat it. I carried one for years (legally) in Texas before the CCW law.
    Same goes for the 9. Yeah right, they're crap, I know. Waste of weight and space. That's why the SEALS carry the MP5's. That's why they make those XM177 types in 9. Whatever.

    Looks like you started a thread anyway :-) with a little help.

    Utgardaloki: will find your referenced book. Always looking for good
    stuff.

    I wrote my congressman and senators last week (for the month), did you?
    Don't forgot the governor like I did though :-(
    Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
    Cedar City, Utah, USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 12:36:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

    I am a newbie (just got an m1a)interested in learning and communicating with other folks who share similar interests. Mounting a scope on my M1A is something I would like to know more about.Any suggestions,such as,what type of mount,scopes,ect would be appreciated.I normally shoot at my local range out to 200yds. thanks

    joe gonzalez <beloogey@aol.com>
    silver spring, md, USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 12:39:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.39)

    I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the barrel diameter of the old M40A1 was at the muzzle? And whether or not the barrel was a straight taper, or a "stepped" taper near the breach? I'm interested in how heavy a barrel should be when employed on a military sniper type weapon, and also the rifle's acceptable maximum weight. The Marine's M40A1 had a total of approx. 14.5 pounds, is this a good target to shoot for? Maybe more? Maybe less? Any informatin would be appreciated.
    Casey <caseyb@scs.unr.edu>
    Sagebrush, NV, USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 12:52:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.152.153)
    Bravo...

    We shot cases of GI ball, and RED tip tracer... (got it free)... life is really fine when you have a few cases of red tip tracer, and a 3 speed carbine :))

    We also used a load with a soft point bullet that has the same contour as ball with H-110... not the speer HP... (it didn't work for me either)

    Now that there are reproduction military air-drop folding stocks for the carbine, it really folds up small.

    "Looks like you started a thread anyway :-) with a little help."

    Did not, did not... you did it! :)

    'lito

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 13:04:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60)

    Sorry, the last post got cut off - I'll try again

    I would like to hear from some of the LE snipers about their shooting tactics, quality of shot setup (accuracy needed) before being clear to fire, etc.
    I was reading a couple of reviews about the Leupold 3.5-10x 40mm (M1 and M3 versions) scopes in the reviews section, and will summarize a few points about each.
    The M3 variety is considered "best for military" because 1 moa elevation adjustments allow full range of adjustment with 1 revolution of the knob, so the chance of being a complete revolution off is eliminated. This is an advantage for the stressful situation w/ multiplie targets a different ranges, etc. etc.
    The M3 style also provides ballistic drop compensation (BDC) for several popular rounds and can be marked for any personal favorite load. The 1 moa adjustments are "good enough" for body hits out to 1000 yds. (1/2 moa windage adjustments are provided).

    The M1 variety is considered to give the extra precision needed for LE shooters, with 1/4 moa adjustments in elevation and windage. The LE sniper is likely to have more time to setup his shot, and less likely to need to engage multiple targets at different ranges quickly. So the M1 style has no bad points for this type of situation.

    So far so good. But, several references have been made to the fact that most law enforcement engagements are at about 75 yards. With the M3 knobs, you can always be within 1/2 moa of any "PERFECT" setting (either 1/2 high or 1/2 low). At 75 yards, this 1/2 moa is only 0.375 inches. Even out at 200 yards, 1/2 moa error is only 1 inch and is equal to an error from a bad windage estimate off by 3 mph (with a 168 gr .308, a little less with .223).

    I know that errors are cumulative, so it isn't wise to add 1/2 moa error just for the knobs on a scope. But what are the parameters for taking a shot, lets say when an instant kill is needed? Anywhere in the head? I've heard refernce to more precision being needed in a hostage situation to insure no reflex after a hit allows a dying shot.
    How much precision is realistic with a live moving target? Would the difference in precision between an M1 and M3 ever really matter? What about compensating with hold-over, etc.

    I hope this stirs up a discussion about shooting and shooting tactics.
    My targets won't be moving if I staple 'em up right, so I'll ask others!

    PS: The best form of gun control is a smooth trigger squeeze.
    Ken <kenneth.finlon@prodigy.net>
    West Palm Beach, Fl, USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 13:58:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.252.224.212)

    Utgardaloki,

    My parents were members of the AARP. Several years ago, I noticed something (probably from the NRA) where that organization contributes to HCI. I had a talk with my dad, a WWII vet, and explained to him how while AARP may provide some beneficial services to his generation it would ultimately do more damage than good. I told him how I felt that every time HCI is successful toward their goal of monkeying with the Bill of Rights they set a precedent. Eventually when the blueprint for dismissing our rights is perfected, everything he went through back then will have been for nothing. This got his attention and Mom & Dad shortly thereafter cancelled their membership. Do any of you know someone who belongs to AARP?

    Bravo,

    Do you think a standard-sized .30 M1 carbine bullet with a core of powdered tungsten, weighing 1.7 times more than a similar-sized lead core, would improve the ballistics of this round? This would be a variation on some of the stuff I intend to produce in the future.
    Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
    Ogden, KS, USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 14:01:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.45)

    New Ken (we already have one!)...

    I'll add to your confusion. The clicks on the M3-LR are large enough, that it's easy to "Split a click"... so now you are never more than 2.5" off at 1000 yds (HA... come to Storm Mountain, and be 8 feet off... :)... or 0.18750" off at 75 yds. Since most garden varity tactical rifles shoot (on a "real" day) around 3/4th+"... I'm sure that makes a big difference.

    Look! decide what kind of shooting you do... don't waste your time pouring over "spec" sheets...
    I really doubt that you're going to shoot some perp in the pupil of his eye at 75 yds, so whether it's 0.3750" or 0.18750" is academic.

    Do you shoot targets, and need that 1/4 adjustments, or do you want to shoot tactical matches?
    Decide what you want to do, and get the scope that does it better...
    not a big one.

    Pablito...

    (... de los banditos sin Baaaadgeees!)

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 14:17:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.129)

    Gun Control/Opinion spam:

    take a look at an email that showed up today - seems like everyone's gonna ride the gunphobia wave.

    Starts here>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Please help us with this survey.

    It is the most ambitious survey ever undertaken on the
    subject of GUN CONTROL IN THE US. Please allow us to
    apologize up front for this method of delivery,
    however in today's world, this is the most efficient
    way to reach the more than 5,000,000 Americans that
    we need to contact.

    If you are at least 18 years old and want to have your
    voice heard on the issue of GUN CONTROL, please print
    out this message, circle your responses, and FAX this
    survey to 1-900-420-2021. A charge of $1.99 will
    appear on your local phone bill to pay for the
    survey. PROCEEDS IN EXCESS OF THE COST OF THIS SURVEY
    WILL BE DONATED TO AID VICTIMS OF GUN VIOLENCE.

    (Circle your response)

    1. Should HAND GUN possession be limited to law
    enforcement officers?

    Yes No

    2. Do you think that the intent of the Founding
    Fathers relative to citizens owning fire arms is being
    misinterpreted by pro-gun enthusiasts?

    Yes No

    3. Should criminals convicted of murder using ANY GUN
    be put to death?

    Yes No

    THE FOLLOWING ARE TOTALLY OPTIONAL RESPONSES

    I am a citizen of the State of: ______________________

    My Name is:___________________________________________

    My e-mail address is: ________________________________

    My additional comments:
    ______________________________________________________

    ______________________________________________________

    ______________________________________________________
     

    YOUR VOTE IS NEEDED TO ENLIGHTEN OUR LAWMAKERS!

    SPEAK NOW, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

    FAX YOUR RESPONSE TO 1-900-420-2021 NOW!

    Feel free to copy this message and pass it along to
    others who want their voices heard on the issue of
    HAND GUN CONTROL.

    Copyright, 1999. American Tabulation & Tracking
    Co-op, surveying the American public on current
    issues and and sending the results to the President
    and Congress of the United States so that they will
    understand the true feelings of the American People.

    Ends here<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
    Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 15:36:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

    As far as Olympic Shooting events on TV. Sure, there may be some political issues behind not televising these events but guys, really, Olympic Shooting Sports are about as exciting as watching grass grow. There a lot of sports that you don't see much of on TV. Look at real wrestling (greco roman etc). Hardly ever see it, along with curling, fencing, biathalon, Pentathalon, underwater basket weaving, etc. Most of the unwashed just don't have an interest in these sports.

    TO be honest if they had Olympic Shooting on TV I would rather watch reruns of Sanford and Son. Unless they start letting the women shooters wear Spandex or somethin. Now Biathaletes shoot at reactive targets and wear Spandex so I would watch that!

    Out here

    gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 16:04:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.168)

    M1 carbine performance improvement...

    You could do what i did and spend a bunch of time and money...
    Rebarrel it in 9 win mag. Im getting about 2600 fps with 115gr fmjs.
    No I will not publish that load data. Firing a 95 gr xtp into wet newspaper at about the same V produced a indent about 7" in diameter and 2 " deep. Projectile was totally vaporized. 147gr xtps at 1800 fps did better penetrating about 5" about a 2" wound channel with approximatly 25% weight retained. You see why Im using fmj. Still havnt got it to feed more than 3 reliably out of a 15 rd mag. Its for sale (FFL required of course) if anyone must have it.

    Ben
    Ben Weeks <Shotcrete@hotmail.com>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 16:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.4)

    Ken...
    this group is one of the many "sham" hustles on the web... not a dime of the funds "leftover after expences" will ever go anywhere but in the Cayman Bank account... and there is no "report" to the congress. Let the anti-gunners go broke on this one... it's less money for HCI.

    Gooch, it isn't just the Olympic events... you won't see movies where the good guy has a firarm and "wins" against the mugger... they didn't cover the news of the Florida police teaching the local women to shoot when they were plagued by a rapest... you won't see anything positive about hunting, self defence, or any other positive use of any firearms by civilians... it's all negative, and it does have an effect on the city folks, and their attitude.

    Pablito.

    PAblito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 16:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.129)

    To Bravo:

    You mentioned that Liberator 45īs were used to great effect in the past by guerillas. As far as I know this was the plan, but which never really did take place. At least all books discussing the subject that I have read mention that Liberator 45 was developed for freedom fighters but only very few, if any, were really distributed to the guerillas in Asia. In Europe Sten SMG was much better and more readily available, so nobody did bother with Liberators here.

    Do you, or any other people know more about this guns real life use ?

    Take care

    Heikki
    Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
    Helsinki, Finland - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 19:58:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

    Joe Gonzalez:
    Just finished my M1A w/ lotsa help from DC8 Plumber. (I owe him MANY tall cool ones, plus mucho thanks). I started w/ a Springfield mount and have set it aside for a Brookfield from William R. Ricca (Shotgun News). They are now on back order,but worth every penny of 250.00. The rings are 30mm Leupold Mk4s from Premier Reticle for 101.00. Again, worth every penny. I have a Tasco SS10x42 which is a really nice scope for 300.00 from SWFA. Only tried it a little and then tried a Leupold tactical 3x9 w/ Mildot from Premier. Nice little scope (w/ 1" Mk4s). Said to hell with it and bought a Leupold VarX III 3.5x10 M3 LR, again w/ 30mm Mk4s and it shoots off a bipod (Versa-pod) into 3/8" @ 100 yds. Lots of work and extra money went into it, but it's all MINE.
    Anyway, there are a few of us grizzled old farts that prefer the M1As on this site. E-mail me for more info.
    And no, I'm not rich! I have a second job.
    BTW, I still can't believe my luck w/ that group. I shot it yesterday. Time will tell if it was a fluke or not, but I'm GRINNIN'!
    Spud,
    OUT

    Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
    Merced, Kalifornicateya, USA - Tuesday, November 23, 1999 at 20:45:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.33)

    Ken,

    That survey is the type of thing that gives statistics a bad name. I know this because I am a statistician. This is a scam to build a database of suckers willing to give the scammer at least $2 any time the scammer yanks the suckers chain. Sounds like an easy way to make a living. Mathematically this little toy survey has no validity whatever.

    Amarillo Slim's father said, "You can fleece a sheep many times but you can only skin him once".

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 03:55:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.42)

    Greetings all,

    I have recently started collecting weapons again, after an extremely expensive divorce, in terms of time, material, and pride. The wife was no great loss. In my frequent surfing and searching, I have come across a vast wealth of information and technology. I have also encountered an incredible amount of blatant misdirection of energy, and outright stupidity, on the part of both gun-grabbers and gun-huggers.

    Some of you may recall a few years back when some loop-hole of evolution claimed that it was his legal right to torch an American flag in public. There was alot of hoopla about whether it was or not, that we should amend the Constitution, and several other things. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed, and Pyro the Flag-Burning Pinhead and several other mutton-headed copy-cats were allowed to flame every Old Glory they could lay their hands on. Their zippos ran dry and life moved on.

    The reason why those cooler heads let the whole thing peeter itself out was because they knew they didn't want to go screwing around with the Constitution. Why? To let some idiot "pursue his happiness"? No. They didn't want to set a precedent, any kind of ground work, that it was "OK" to fool with the Bill of Rights. No matter how "good" the reason or how "great" the intention.

    That act of discretion, knowing enough not to do anything, did not slip by the would-be gun-grabbers. It exposed the very thing that they must aim for to be successful. They have to get it changed, it specifically says that we have the right to own and use guns. They have to convince a majority of We The People, that "we" need to change things. They may not be able to actually alter those documents, they may not even need to, but if they can alter the public's perception and understanding of them enough, who knows? They can do it and they have already. And they're getting better at it.

    They will try to convince us that guns are bad, that we sometimes use them to hurt and even kill each other. The latter is true. They will try to convince us that we don't "need" certain types of guns. This is also true. Sure, what does Joe-hunter need with a machine-gun? They will try to convince us of all sorts of things designed specifically to lead us slowly but surely down the primrose path to the realization that we really don't "need" any firearm and "Sure, go ahead, go ahead, pass all the laws you want." Up to and including amending the Constitution if necessary.

    We've already lost "Assault Weapons". The basic definition of a Semi-Automatic Assault Weapon is anything with a removeable magazine and at least two other life-threatening features such as a folding stock or a bayonet. I'd like to ask the genius that came up with that load if adding a fancy exhaust pipe and mag wheels to a Honda Civic made it a race car, or maybe putting a camo paint job on a VW Bug made it an armored personnel carrier. In California, you have to turn in your SKS by January 1, 2000 if it has a removeable magazine or go to jail. It doesn't even need to have a fancy stock or a knife on it. Better still, they'll give a voucher that you can't cash because they don't have the funds to back their new law. I don't know about your state, but it's illegal for me to write a bad check in New Mexico. And if you think that they're not after your Bolt-action 700? Guess again. Just ask any FORMER gun owner from the UK, or Australia, or South Africa.

    You may not have cared when they decided you couldn't smoke where ever you wanted anymore and then sued the cigarette manufacturers. Maybe it didn't matter when they forced you to wear your seat belt or helmet. It's for your own good and it's the right thing to do, right? Wrong. ANYTIME ANY AMERICAN LOSES ANY RIGHT OR PRIVELEGE IT IT AN ATTACK AGAINST EVERY ONE OF US. The Constitution and specifically the Bill of Rights were written in very plain English and enacted by simple men to protect and preserve the rights of every single American. They are not up for debate or discussion. They are not subject to interpretation. They shall not be infringed.

    My point in all of this is that it is not enough to quietly join the NRA (although I have been a gun-huggin' member for years)and sit back and wait for someone else to do your talking. You have got to speak up for yourself. Educate yourself and write to your Local, State, and Federal representitives. Write to the local papers. Call the radio and television stations. Participate in the opinion polls. Stay informed and for God's Sakes, Vote. Ignorance is their weapon, don't give them any more ammunition. And the next time some side-stepping do-gooder asks you your opinion about gun-control, just ask them which right they are willing to give up.

    Againt fur? Don't wear one. Against abortion? Don't get one. Against guns? Don't own one.

    But don't try to tell me that I can't.

    Thomas A. Wright <NemeSys4565@yahoo.com>
    Albuquerque, NM, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 04:03:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.74.3.92)

    Heikki...

    I can't speak for Asia, but they dropped tons of "Liberator" pistols all over Europe, along with a stick of dynamite, a cap and fuse, and a picture book of instrictions.
    A friend in Austria has 27 Liberators, most of them, most still sealed. He tried to give me one, but customs wouldn't let it be imported... (no ser#, no maker, barrel too short, no proof marks, unsafe, no safty... your mother's ugly... yadda, yadda, yadda...).

    'lito

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 04:32:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.126)

    Got a stupid question -- what is the barrel life of a Remington 700DM .308 caliber.

    Lito, thanks for bringing my oversite to my attention. Forgot to mention the caliber. I got a brain fart this morning.

    Darren...
    Semper Fi
    I & HQ 3/12
    Darren <ddong@witcapital.com>
    San Francisco, California, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 05:40:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.90.57.35)

    To ALL:

    I just placed an order for a new run of Sniper Country Shirts. This LIMITED run will have a NEW color, which will be Forrest Green. The large words "Sniper Country" will not appear on the back. Otherwise the T-shirt graphic will look like the 1999 model.

    Currently the only sizes I plan on running are XL and XXL.

    Forrest Green is not available in XXXL and no XXXLs will be available in this run.

    If you are an XXXL, I can get you black shirts, but I MUST have your order before 10 December to get it this year.

    Currently I am only running 25 shirts, first come first serve. If orders reflect higher interest I will increase the order. Forrest Green will be the only color. Price for either size will be $16.50 plus shipping. Shipping remains the same as last year $3.50 for up to five shirts.

    There has been some requests for a long sleeve Sniper Country shirt. If you want this, please email me by December 10, preferably sooner. I can not place orders for these after 13 December due to the Christmas rush. Price for the Long Sleeve shirt will be $22.00 plus shipping. I can not order these until I have at least 10 orders. Sizes for this will be by special order as I will not be making the run unless I have enough to justify it. Sizes can be L, XL, XXL, and XXXL. Shirt is 100% heavy weight. Order early if you want it before the new year.

    You asked for it, so here it is. If you were serious, get your orders in asap and maybe we can beat the Christmas rush. Thanks.

    Scott Powers

    Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 07:05:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

    On Carbines (and Jack Rabbits)...

    I was going over the roster, and the comments on the Carbine, and Ben Weeks' conversion to 9mm Win Mag... and I remembered the little wildcat, the .22 Carbine (30 carb, necked down to .22). It was real popular back in the 50's and 60's for shooting the hoards of Jack rabbits, out of movin' pick up trucks, and jeeps.

    Then it dawned on me (see... I was going somewhere with this!)... that there used to be tons of Jack rabbit shooting back then... litterally 500 to 1000 A DAY!! They were far worse than Prairie Dogs... then I haven't heard a word about them in 20 years or more... So, you'se guys out in the South West, and in the grain country... what happened to all the Jack rabbit shooting... did they just die out... poisoned?... or are you keeping it to yourselves.

    PLEASE don't start a thread on this one... answer me by e-mail!

    Pablito.

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 07:07:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.38)

    Paul Headlee: Tungsten. Nope. Call me old fashion, but I prefer lead. Weight doesn't matter to me as much (for this type round) as expanding design.

    Heikki: I don't have a clue about Asia, as I didn't know that they were supposed to be used there. I was refering to them being used extensively in France by the underground. At least that's what I read, and they were supposedly rather common. Makes sense, one 45 pop and you got a MP40 with a mag. Or sturmgeweher (SP?). Anything's better than nothing!

    On M1 Carbine rounds: I also tried all I could to get a good load with Speer spire point 110's. Couldn't do it. If you can, you're a better loader than me!

    'Lito: three speeds are a hoot, I had a 4. Safe, semi, worn out recoil spring, new spring. Changed from a tap tap tap to a chainsaw!
    Got plenty of flea bags out here, but nothing like they used to be.

    Have to go write my governor now, seems he wants to restrict where I can carry my pistol (with my license).

    Anyone else heard about reducing the gas port diameter on a M1A for more velocity / less gas system pressure?
    Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
    Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 07:57:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

    "Militia, militia, militia... See Scott, no harm. " - Gooch

    Gooch, I think you may have misunderstood me. My only concern with all the militia talk is that the roster might evolve into a meeting place for the various militia movements in existence. Due to the nature of the site, it is understandable that those looking to improve their chances in the event the country goes to hell in a hand basket come visit SC. That is fine. But I would hope the roster would remain an educational tool for all shooters. Not just a soap box for all the various political organizations that share a common enjoyment of shooting or defensive marksmanship.

    For all the intellectual debate that surrounds the militia movement, the simple fact remains that SC tries to be non-political in nature. We may all agree in our beliefs, but the site must remain true to its course and not be side tracked by endless political debate.
    My point was simply that we just do not want to see the Roster degenerate into an endless debate about government, Clinton, Democrats, the UN or politics. These are ALL interesting topics, but we had hoped to keep the Roster a learning experience for shooters, not just another political refuge for the anti-government movement. Hell, I am more libertarian than anything else, so I think I understand the issues. But that is irrelevant. The site is about long range shooting. I was not being PC. I was however trying to keep us on track.

    I will not apologies if I pissed off any skin heads or other persons of that ilk. And there are PLENTY of those in the militia movement. There is my main problem with some of these organizations. They profess freedom, but only want it for themselves. They can, in short, kiss my ass. My concern with all the political talk is that we will eventually see more of them here on the roster. No thanks!

    Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 08:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

    Bravo...

    Several of mine had a gear shift levers on the left side of the ejection port... three speeds, "S"top "F"ast, and "A"wful fast!!
    And man, was it a ball with "Red tip" trace.

    Someone gave you real bad dope on the gas port thing...
    The M14, M1A, M21, M25 group, needs between 12,000 and 14,000 psi at the gas port to function.

    There may be a little slack on the low side if the gun is well broken in, and very smooth... and slack on the high side, if the gun is new and stiff, but you go too far out of this range of pressures, and the 14 family either won't cycle properly and closes on a fired case... or it beats itself to death... a bad end to a fine rifle. Feed 'em good ammo, and they run well. They are very fine rifles (dispite what Scott says :))

    If you make the gas port smaller, it just won't cycle.
    The gas port is only a few inches behind the muzzle... so it won't have any effect onthe velocity... (maybe 10 fps??).
    There is a gas port shutoff valve on the 14's so it can launch granades... you can close the gas port, and measure the difference... the National match, Super match, and M21's have this port disabled, so I can't do it on mine... if anyone has a standard M1A, try it and let me know what (if any) difference is.

    Pablito.

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 08:23:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.38)

    AMEN brother Thomas!!!
    Wolf <RockyRun@centurytel.net>
    WI, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 10:49:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.206.147.115)
    Ladies and Gentleman,

    Marius finally got un-busy enough to post some more pix from the Carlos N. Hathcock Memorial Sniper Match in the photo gallery.

    Sorry for the peteR induced delay,
    well actually,
    it was that jet setting Scott Powers, who took time between jaunts to Bora-Bora, and Southern Italy,(or was it Greece?) to scan and transmit them to Marius.

    Is it true that Tia Carrera was on the back of your bike out to Sturgis Scott???????? So they call it "Lymes Disease" now huh?

    Chao!

    peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
    BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 10:55:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.164)

    Packs...

    Does anybody know if a "Becker pack", will fit on an Alice frame??

    Pablito

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 11:45:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.140.80.123)

    Bravo Re: Gas Port on M1A
    Not to disagree with anything Pablito said but, there is a modification to the gas system common on match grade M1A's. I never tried it and I wont recommend it, but it used to be common practice to drill a small hole thru the front of the gas plug. This is supposed to have the effect of reducing excess gas port pressure when shooting hot long range match loads and maybe reducing the stress on the op. rod.
    Steve <nato@bright.net>
    S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 12:18:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
    Pablito-
    The becker back will not fit on an ALICE frame .....but Eagle Industries (the original maker) is supposed to come out with a version that will next year (about a month or so away). I have spoken to the Eagle people several times and tested their products-always good quality and excellent service.
    hope you can wait-MicTac
    MicTac <Mictac@AOL.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 12:44:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.78)
    Hey guys, Phase One of Lt's test is over and I survived. Time to get back to shooting and slings.

    Darren, Bbl life os PSS is not an absolute. Watch for velocity drop and groups to open up. Velocity drop is a pretty good indicator of what the inside is like. As a bbl wera less rounds can be fired before the groups open up. I look for how it shoots. If you start with a 1MOA weapon it wont be long before it groups to large for comfort. I have a McMillan built in 1981 that has the original bbl and now shoots 3/4MOA after ten thousand plus rounds. It started as a 1/4MOA rifle with hand loads. Hope this helps.

    I am staing out of the Militia thing other than to say that my earlier post was talking more of a perception problem than anything else.

    Mike/Undude
    MikeM <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
    Calif, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 12:52:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.32)

    Bravo...

    The tip that Steve (The "orginal") gave would be a very good way to go... the tap would lower the op-rod velocity, and would be easier to do, than getting a barrel with a non standard bleed hole, and if you do it, you could un-do it easier than messing with the barrel again.

    Mictac...
    Yup, I can wait... I've got all winter to get ready for the next assault on SMTC :)) I've got a medium (and big) alice, but would like more exterior pockets, without going to the big alice.

    'lito

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 13:16:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.140.80.123)

    Ok Guys I'm gonna make one more run at this and then I'll quit with it.

    Thermo-Anemometers.In the endless array of high-tech gadgets,tools,aides and other assorted minutia that seem so useful in making long range target contact it seems to me that the ability to accurately gauge wind speedis almost completely overlooked.Your going to buy the most accurate rifle,scope,rangefinder,etc,etc and your gonna gauge the wind by watching the grass blow?WHY?For way under $150 you can tell exactly the wind speed and temperature(+/-.1).The only reference I've seen pertaining to these units is a picture of one on the cover of the June issue of TS.I realize that the wind at your target may be completely different than at the shooter but at least it would give you a useful tool for verifying your trained eye,kinda like a Laser rangefinder/Mil-Dot pairing.These things are cheap,light,accurate,and yes I have one on order.I'm too ignorant to create hyperlinks so here are two websites that have them ....www.kestrelinsruments.com and www.extech.com (this model is under "whats new"mod#45118 pocket thermo-anemometer).Look at these and tell me why I should not have spent my $85 dollars on one.
    Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
    Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 14:53:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.178)

    Rotten deer hunting weather. Hot, full moon, rain and fog, wet leaves, damn bugs. This ain't right, deer season with tshirts and shorts. Bucks are to hot to be horny!

    Didn't even get a chance to use all my newly aquired long range expertise LOLLOLLOL.

    Anybody got deer meat for sale?
    Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 14:59:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.40.29)

    Hey Boltster...

    Come on up to Connecticut, and leave your guns home... got one with an '87 Dodge Caravan two weeks ago... but he got run over bad by the truck in the other lane... Caravan didn't do too well :((
    I've seen more dead deer this fall, than in the last 5 years, all put together... (P.E.T.A. is real strong up here!)... and the damn things are like rats! I've seen heards in the middle of town (a large town of 60,000).

    Bruce E...
    I've thought about those Thermo-Anemometers thingies... Gooch and Rod had a neat military unit down at SMTC... and we measured one cross wind at 35mph. There are certinly times when it won't have all the answers, but it's something I want to add to the kit.
    Wind is not one of my strong points, and something like this might give some corrolation between wind speed, and the aparent leaf/branch/tree/grass movement. I have (since I was a kid) ranged things while I went through the day, like a sign down the road, and paced or drove the distrance... it's good mental prep.
    If you have something like these Thermo-Anemometers, you can start observing the effect of wind on the things around you, when you're killing time, and build a library of windage effects in your mind... at least I think so, and I'm going to get one this spring.

    'lito

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 15:39:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.140.80.123)

    Pretty good Deer hunting up here in NH. Got a little buck opening day with .50 cal. Knight/American Knight. Shot him at ten feet, thought he was trying to attack me, so I defended myself. So much for long distance shots!
    Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
    NH, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 16:51:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.204)
    SURVEY SCAM!!!!

    I read an article not too long ago about survey scams. Some of these companys are not even AMERICAN! They have researched to find out the topics that really get americans hot and get you to pay to participate in the survey ...ie..telephone billing..They most likely do nothing with the results. Probably trash them. Don't fall for it. Best way to let your voice be heard is at the Election booth!!!
    Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
    NH, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 17:24:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.204)

    Survey scams:

    Oh no, they don't trash the results. Not if they are smart. They want you to fill out a form. That goes on a database. From there you are cultivated like sheep to be shorn. Again, and again, and again.

    You would be surprised how powerful a psychopathic statistician can be.

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 17:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.45)

    Man do I HATE computers, I gotta wonder wehy I am back in school for programming and networking. I just spent a week off line after a fried modem and a reformated hard drive. It's good to be back, but where did all the political stuff come from?

    Any one that I have conversed with via e-mail, I lost my address book on the reformat... could you drop me a note so I can rebuild it.

    On the Kestrel wind thingy ;)
    I use an earlier version (wind only) for high power matches. I find it handy when I can stand up and spend some time watching the direction/speed pattern. I have found mine to give bogus readings if there is any obstruction on the wind ward side (not necessarilly in the way or blocking, just altering the flow). I use it for a reference and then go back to the mirage. Does the wind speed increase as you get farther above the ground? I would bet on it, I have measured wind at 10mph with the Kestrel unit while the wind flag right next to me was straight out.
    For me, it is a tool to help me learn to read the wind/mirage quicker. I have had a friend walk down range with it and a radio. He would relay the speed and direction back to me while I observed the mirage. What did I learn? That I was "seeing" waay more wind than I should have, and over compensating on my first shot (sighters are great). Now, I am usually near the x-ring on my first sighter out to 300yds and in the 10-ring at 600yds (good piece of mind for "leg matches"). Besides, what would do you do in a real world situation (or practice/match) that requires you to remain undetected? I suspect that you would rely on mirage and the "wind indicators" dust, leaf movement, etc.. In my totally NONPROFESSIONAL opinion, it would be a great training tool, and could be useful in the field where you have the ability to use it without compromise. Any of you "professionals" out there care to comment?

    And Yes, it is worth the asking price.
    steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
    south West, pennsylvania, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 17:59:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.159)

    While I am talking wind reading. Has any one else based a wind call on the angle that the rain was coming down to soak your sorry ass?

    The reason, take your pick:

    1) scope fogged up
    2) too much rain to see any mirage
    3) you aren't smart enough, or are too stubborn to get off the line in a rain storm
    4) if it ain't raining this ain't training
    5) 1,2,3,4&5
    6) there are "bad people" around that won't let you get a shower and hot coffee
    steve <hockyref@bellatantic.net>
    USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 18:14:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.159)

    Wind meters,
    I have one, it works just fine but I hardly use it. It is called a Dwyer wind meter. It cost less than 20 bucks. It consists of a small ball inside a tube with a scale on it. It taught me something that I did not realize before I bought it. I can actually hear the wind when it reaches a speed of 7.5 mph. This technique works best if you have an empty head. After I learned that I never used it again. Can't hear the wind = < than 7.5 mph. Can hear wind => than 7.5 mph. Cant keep hat on = > than 10 mph. Save yourself about 65 bucks and buy the cheap one. What the wind does at the firing point is just a small piece of the puzzle. A good spotting scope is a better tool for the job as long as mirage is present.
    Steve <nato@bright.net>
    S.C.D.H., USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 18:31:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
    My hats off to the MAN that has this site loading better than ever!!
    Spud
    Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
    Merced, Kalifornicatya, USA - Wednesday, November 24, 1999 at 20:44:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.176)
    You all may have forgot that wind is not a constant dynamic force, and moves kinda like water, just thinner.

    Five years ago, I did a review of a Skywatch pocket anemometer and "quickie" test for an article placing surveyors ribbon at 5 and 10 yard intervals out to 50 yards. IT NEVER ONCE IN THREE DAYS OF OBSERVATION SHOWED THE SAME PATTERN!

    I saw at least two different wind directions at Storm Mountain by using the trees and bushes as indicators, and it was not even windy....

    Chao!

    peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
    BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 01:39:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.39)

    Darren,
    Mikes right, you just wacth your accuracy and when it starts to taper off you have a problem. I shot the bbarrels out of two VSs in 308s and thats exactly what happens one day you start shooting groups in the 1.0 area instead of in the .6 area and it doesn't get better no matter what you do. This happened to me at around 5000 on one and 4500 on the other. I never broke them in right or babied them I did clean them a lot but bboth had rough barrels but shot great perhaps if I had known them what I know now they would have lasted longer.

    Bruce E,
    I used a wind meter to help me learn to read the wind. I will always make my call on the wind then I check it with the wind meter. I had the cheap one and it sucked!!! It would read bogus for me and I had no faith in it some though swear by it but I had no luck with mine I bought a good one and love it but use it as a tool to learn to read the wind not as a crutch. Jut my thoughts on it.
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 02:09:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

    Mike: Hang in there with the LT test. Drive on...

    Reloading question. Has anyone checked out the differences between Federal 215 Large Mag. primers and Federal 215GM match primers. Are they comparable or is one hotter than the other? Will velocities be equal ? I understand the quality control thing. It seems the local shop is not stocking them anymore because there isn't much demand for them so I'm thinking about switching to the regular primers. Should I order a couple of cases of 215Ms from somewhere else? Any comments. Thanks....

    Happy Thanksgiving to all..

    Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
    Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 03:15:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

    On a serious note, want to wish everyone a safe and happy Thanksgiving.

    PS: Send cold weather
    Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 03:28:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.46.132)

    Wind' being from this part of the country e. colo w. kansas what would I know about wind. Only thing I know is that the lower you get to the ground the better off you are. The longer the range the greater the trajectory curve the more the wind affects it because the bullet is higher above the ground.
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 03:44:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
    Torsten, Call or email me, I lost you email address.

    Thanks,

    Rod
    Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
    Elk Garden, WV, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 03:59:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.155)

    Tony,
    I have not played with the 215s that much since I quit shooting the 300WMs and they didn't have the Match then but I have stopped paying the extra for the match primers in my 308 and 260s and went with the standard 210s over the match and I haven't been able to tell any difference in my groups for field shooting and I still will get .2s and .3s with the pet load in the 308 ,if I do my part, off a bench so I really haven't noticed any difference. I did go from a stantard to a mag primer im my 22-250 for winter shooting and it doubled my groups, so there is a difference that way, in some cases.

    To ALL,
    Happy Thanksgiving to a great bunch of guys!!!!!
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 04:04:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

    To send a report to Congress you:

    1) Photocopy your kid's "How I Spent My Summer Vacation".
    2) Put the copy in an envelope addressed to "The Capitol, Washington D.C."
    3) Take it to the post office and send it certified.

    When it arrives it is opened by some minimum wage flunky who then glances at it to see if it contains any type of threat. If it does not, it is tossed in the trash. So, if 10,000 suckers want to send me $2 each, I will be happy to send a one paragraph report to Congress on anything from Tinker Bell to tooth-decay. It takes twenty minutes and costs about $4.

    Plus I get a list of gullible dumb-asses who can pay my kids' way through college.

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 04:14:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.6)

    On the barrel wear thing: If you start to see a decrease in accuracy but are unsure of how many rounds have been out the tube, try going through the break in process again. Once your BORE is shot out, it is shot out, but you might only be experiencing the result of a build up of copper. Getting it ALL out may bring back a bit of accuracy. If the rifle was not broken in properly in the fist place, you might find it shoots substantially better after a proper break in, even if the thing has 2000 rounds through it.

    Also, your barrel may be in fine shape but your lead (free boar or throat, what ever you cal it in your neck of the woods) may have grown so long via errosion that it has negatively impacted your accuracy. These barrels can be brought back by having a new chamber cut. You'll lose some bore length in the process but who cares? For someone short on cash, this might be an option.

    A good .308 can go between 3500 and 10,000 rounds. Some folks have reported even higher numbers with acceptable accuracy. "Acceptable" of course is subjective. The rifle that aggrivates me with a 1.0 moa average might be da BOMB for an eastern deer hunter. How long the accuracy lasts depends on a lot of things. Load type, frequency of cleaning, type of powder, errosion, abuse to name a few. Shooting really hot loads with very long boat tail bullets will shorten the life a bit for instance. By how much? Beats me.
    Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 05:27:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

    A few of you have been asking me about the line of IOR tactical scopes appearing on the market. There is a fairly good review in the December issue of Tactical Shooter. The one comment that stood out was that the glass is equal to the finest Europe has to offer (it is made in Germany by the same company that makes glass for some very well known Western European scope manufacturers). The author said it out performed his favorite Leupold. That is about all I can add. We hope to have one for reivew at some point. Until then all I can do is direct you to that article, which appears to be the first serious review of these tactical scopes.
    Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 05:34:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)
    One more thing on barrel wear, you should always have a good rifle builder check your bore with a good bore scope before "Chucking" it into the iron pile because as Scott said it may be a simple matter of cleaning or throat errosion. Mine unfortunately were "Junk" according to my smith. I was going to have it shortened but mine was "Fire cracked" for a couple of inches up the barrel, like I said when I got the old VS I didn't baby it, a typical day was a 100+ rounds and I didn't pay much attention to how hot it was, after all its only a 308, not a 22-250(Yea right,heat is heat)
    Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 06:19:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
    This was posted in the Emporium. Remember all, please use the emporium for sale items only. The Staff.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I had warranty work completed on my M-24 SA (PST-03A), about four years ago. I had developed some spider cracks around the rear pillar. I contacted H-S Precision by phone. They told me to box it up and ship to them. They repaired the crack and repainted. About a year later, I
    noticed some of the epoxy finish cracking off. It saw some hard use. Sent it out again. No questions asked. They replaced with a new stock in my choice of camo pattern. All I was out, was the postage to get it there. Good Company. They stand behind their work. Warranty should not be a problem.

    Semper Fi.

    D. S. Robinson

    Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 08:09:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

    Found this one right below the other one in the Emporium. Again, all comment of this nature should go into the Roster. SC Staff.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Posted by Jayhawker on November 21, 1999 at 18:48:47:

    I have an H-S Precision stock, identical to the Rem VS, that has longitudal crack in the bottom of the pistol grip. It could be "glassed" and
    repainted but I thought H-S might have a warranty on this. Anybody have any info? Thanx,

    Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 08:11:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

    Pete, I just read your review of my slings. Thanks for all the kind words. As to the color of the cuff. You are partially right I now make a cuff in a green. It is a cross between Kelly and Spring and camos well. It is heavier than the original material though and stiffer so I do not advertise it. Still looking for a manufacture of camo Nylon and Poly Webbing that does not have a huge minimum order, such as 2000 yards per color. Right now I have to stick with Balck CUffs and the colors already talked about for the slings.

    Scott, I have to disagree with you about the IOR Scopes. The one I had was a 10x56 with a 30mm tube. It had tremendous lenses, better than Leupold, but the turret adjustments were no damm good! If they have fixed that in the last two years great, but take a good look at them and the internals. I saw not hardened screws, course adjusters and a Mickey Mouse way of setting zero. A sniper scope is far more than great glass. Also they do not have a true Mildot reticle. Until I see somethiing more from them my money is on Leupold, since BxL quit making the 10x Tactical(Pablito)

    Undude/Mike
    MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
    Calif, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 08:28:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.206)

    Good day, I'm looking for two things. 1- An aftermarket trigger to replace the stock one in the Savage Tactical Rifle. (One that does not require a block and tackle to pull) 2- Info on accurizing the BAR in 300 Win Mag. I'd like a one piece stock, trigger work and maybe new barrel info.

    I can be reached at dsnygrl@ameritech.net.

    Thanks for any help!
    John
    Sgt. John Belknap <dsnygrl@ameritech.net>
    Ann Arbor, MI, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 08:43:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.179.190.125)

    This is ah little off subject, but I read the cleaning section of the hot tips & cold shots and I thought I would share something that I like to do. I use a SS 1 piece rod with a brass jag, but the jag I use is .22 cal. IMHO I think its better because I can use two patches at once which seems to get into the rifling better, and soaks up more solvent to push through the barrel.

    BTW this site is great, I find more helpful advice here than in any magazine at the local book store. thx
    Wolf <RockyRun@centurytel.net>
    hickville, Wi, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 11:19:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.206.147.109)

    Nice Pix on 1999 Hathcock shoot! Mike your not quite as ugly as me!
    Bruce is though!
    B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 11:52:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
    Take off barrels-
    I am looking for the guy I spoke with about the stainless flutted 22.250 take off barrel. We were talking about a possible trade or cash. I have lost your e-mails and address. If you still want to sell the barrel please contact me. Everyone else, I need a good barrel or two for some projects I have going. I need a .30cal and/or .22cal barrels. I'm hoping one of you guy's have a take off from a PSS or VS rifle.
    Don

    Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 13:36:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.24)

    Don,

    Hmmm, M1 Carbine. Nice gun and it's reliable. I have owned several and the only draw back in my opinion is that the ammo is now starting to get expensive. I have heard a lot of stories about how ineffective the bullet is but, I think that can be said for ANY moderate velocity FMJ. The .30 carbine is very nasty with either the Speer 100gr plinker (half jacket) or the Hornady 100gr half jacket. No one will walk away after getting nailed with a couple of these. The powder that is great for the .30 M1 is H-110.
    As for rechambering the thing, I have thought about this quite a bit in the past and if I were to choose a round for that size gun it would be the .221 Fireball. Rimmed cases can jam in a big way not to mention take up a lot of space in your magazine. The 5.7mm Johnson was one of the competitors against the .223 rem. The 5.7 was nothing more than a .30 case necked down to accept .224" bullets. As far as people criticizing the gun, I doubt you will find any volunteers to stand in front of one.
    In what ever situation you might face, I do think the M! carbine is a viable choice, especially since you can get several pistols chambered for it too. Nice. I know I will get dinged for blessing the carbine as a backup. Concider this, if your wife, grilfriend, or sinifigant other is recoil shy and you are on a tight budget the M1 is a first rate choice for personal defense. Sorry guys for going afainst the prevailing view.
    Semper Fi!
    Bad Karma
    Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 14:37:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.44)

    Thankyou very much thats a whole lot better there gents,I knew that some of you had to have used an anemometer as it's not like a recent technological breakthrough or something.I guess I should have started my question with MILITIA and I would have got your attention sooner:).Anyway thanks for confirming my suspicions as far as application.If a person is going to learn to "read" wind than he has to have some type of control agent to verify his "readings".I ordered the Extech model that I mentioned and surely it will help.It measures not just current speed but also gusts and will average with updates in 1 second.Looks like if you have the time it could give you a pretty good idea of what that pesky wind is doing.When I read articles in summary of LR/Tac rifle matches almost invariably the most common cause(excuse) for missing is bad wind call/bad dope.Since I have plenty of other stuff I do bad I would like to do this well.So thanks for the input and I'll tell you how it works.
    Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
    Texas, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 14:57:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.82)
    Bad Karma...

    Don't apoligize on the 30 Carb... no home should be without one... mebbe' two!!

    'lito

    Pablito <condor@mags.net>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 15:12:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.135)

    All,

    I think I will add my $.02 worth on the whole militia gun control debate as well as a comment to the commies who may visit this site. Eh, hem! The deal on militias is simple, if you don't want to get fingered, don't organize. Just you and your spotter will do, let your conscience be your guide. As far as the legitimacy of militias is concerned I think our current political enviroment is justification enough to make them feasable. I do not believe in violence, hell after Desert Storm I lost my taste for hunting but, I will defend myself, my family, and the Constitutuon. Those of you who WANT to do somethin do what I am doing. I donate my time and put my reputation on the line by helping out a pro gun, pro freedom candidate for election. This is my way of fighting back. It's easy. I go to his/her campaign office and stuff envelopes, make signs, phone voters, make coffee, or what ever the hell needs done I will help out. I aint rich so money is out of the question. I feel good and I feel that this is the way to change shi- around here is by getting off my a-- and constructivly fighting back.
    Just for the record I would like to say that if we get a REAL Presedent in office next year as well as a stronger Republican Senate and house, I think that the Senate sub-commitee on un-American affairs should be reopened and kick out some of these socialist a--holes who have no idea what honor is. These are the same dic-heads who dispise us veterans who made it possible for their commie rhetoric to be spoken in public in the damn place. I get treated like shi- by some people because I think the Stars and Stripes are worth folding with ginger care. I am also of the oppinion that if the Chi-coms become a pain in the ass that we wok them with nukes! The men and women who fought and died to defeat communism are being slapped in the face by a bunch of draft dodging, anti military, never been outside of the country pieces of shi-!
    Do I sound pissed off? You !@&!!$% right I am! How can 80 million gun owners be out foxed by the "soccer moms" I will never know.
    As far as gun control goes fellas is this. They the left can NEVER rid guns from America. If they tried they would be laughed out of the country. I was a cop for a time and I would never attempt to confiscate any weapon from any law abiding citizen. If you are in the LE field and you feel that your stupidvisors and police quiefs will order you to confiscate guns all you have to say is "No" simple. This will be my last posting on politics-ever.
    I hope that when all the politics are set aside and freedom is once again restored folks will never allow the commies (sic) Democrats to ever hold office again. Handgun Control, Inc., should be declared a subversive organization and banned from non profit status!
    End of political smack!
    Semper Fi!
    Bad Karma

    Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 15:20:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.44)

    Wolf-man, if you are using a Parker Hale type (wrap-around) jag, then you don't need two patches or a smaller diameter jag. And remember gang, a really tight patch means that you are squeezing solvent out of it before it gets into the rifling. If you really want to soak the bore, then I recommend the bore mop thingies, which look like furry brushes, made of cotton or whatever. The trick with the chemicals is to get them in there, and then give them time to work. A wet patch followed by an immediate dry patch is not going to do much good.

    Lastly, the best (by FAR) thirty cal. patches I have ever used are made by U.S. Arsenal. They are round, textured cotton, and will not pull apart, and can be had from Jerry's Sport Center (wholesale distributor) for one source.

    Out.
    Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
    Radioactive, CA, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 15:21:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.14.52.225)

    Politics? I'm totally lost now. I was seriously looking at McCain. But, I just read a newspaper article today that claims he came out on Larry King Live and said he was for Gun Control. That's not what his website says. I guess i would rather have someone in there that I know is going to screw me than think is going to screw me. At least I can prepare for that. I hate wishy-washy people. Oh well.
    Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
    NH, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 16:00:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.25)
    As another Thanksgiving approaches, my prayers are with our military (ESPECIALLY those away from home) and their families. THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOU DO! To the (fellow) law enforcement officers, be safe and go home always.

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!
    David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
    NC, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 16:06:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.13.98)

    I just got done talking to someone bout barrel twist in an AR (off subject again). Its always been my understanding that the 20" 1/7 is more accurate and was designed for a 70 gr bullet (if I remember correctly). The person I was talking to was saying that its wrong and a 1/9 is better on a 20" unless you were to go with something like an 80 gr. bullet and no less. Can I get some of u fine folks to comment on this. thx
    Wolf <RockyRun@centurytel.net>
    hickville, WI, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 21:37:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.206.147.61)
    Hello to all !

    I bought a pair of surplus Steiner 8X30G binoculars with the distance estimation reticle. Would someone care to confirm me the distances. If I recall right the longer "ticks" are 4 mil high and the shorter ones are 2 mil. The distance between a short and a long "tick" is 5 mil. Am I right ?

    Another question: I am planning to mount Butler Creek flip-up caps to the objectives. Does Tenabraex still sell those honeycombed "KillFlash" caps to the public ? Which size is best, as the rubber outside the objective has a little bit of "give in", I probably has to order one size smaller. Someone here(Rod Ryan ?) has these caps installed, maybe he could elaborate. I can order those caps, but they are not available in those shops I use, so I really can not try different sizes before ordering. What about the oculars ? The issued plastic cover is no good and only in my way when using the binocs, so what do you suggest to replace them ?

    BTW even though these binocs are a little bit battered (German Bundeswehr surplus), the optics themselves are in very good condition and all adjustments work OK, so I am happy with them. They are pretty compact and light.

    Best regards,

    Heikki
    Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
    Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 21:38:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

    Thanks:
    Just want to remind all to take a moment to be greatful for all the blessings we've received - including our great nation.
    Have a Happy Thanksgiving - remember to do your part to keep America God fearing, Armed and Free!!!

    Ken :)

    Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
    Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, November 26, 1999 at 03:01:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)


    HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

    peteR <PNGREIF@AOL.COM>
    BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 26, 1999 at 03:06:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.32)

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING

    God Bless and keep our service members around the world safe!

    Sarge

    Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
    Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 15:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.177)

    Well Im sure you all have missed me LOL. ok well anyhow been out hunting a bunch here in montana. been quit poor this year actually.
    Shot a super buck put two in the old bread basket with the .06 180gn nosler partitions,,and damned thing quit bleeding and the snow melted so fast we lost it, hate that with a passion. guess deer can purchase kevlar now too LOL. ok anyhow thought you guys might be interested in the quality hunters we have out there, So far this year only thing thats been bad that I have caught wind of was a man that brought a llama into a Butcher. Butcher told him it was a Llama guy argued with him swore up and down it was a deer with its winter coat..dumb idiot was so ticked at the butcher he went to a game warden. end of that story. I Used to work at a truck stop saw all kinds of idiots I wouldnt want to be anywhere around when they had a gun. well had one come thru once with a nice mule gutted and tagged. thought it was a cow elk.. we didnt have the heart to tell him he was so proud LOL. anyhow real scary thing was the guy did a good job gutting it out. and had it properly spread out in the back of the truck to air out and keep cool,,something most hunters I know dont even know to do. So I guess the purpose of this whole post is Im wondering why isnt hunters safety and firearms safty manditory in school? My guess is alot more lives would be saved and alot more people would participate in conservation if it was.

    Oh see my favorite topic is up I only have one thing to say about the militia and gun control and polititions,, republican party isnt the answer eather fellas, Henry hide supported the Brady bill, Mchain stated openly he was against background checks at gun shows but voted for them on the floor. People amaze me they whine about corrupt polititions but its never the ones in there party, course what else can be expected, after all this time we still trust car salesmen LOL

    Yol Bolson
    Partison
    Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
    Missoula, Mt., USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 16:14:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.166.190.177)

    Heikki,

    A couple of weeks ago we did the mil-dot thing in all the detail anyone could ever want. Gooch did a good post then I followed up with a couple.

    Anyone with AR questions can take them to the link below. These guys will be happy to talk you to death on anything related to ARs.

    ArTalk

    CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
    USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 16:19:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.6)

    Happy Thanksgiving to all of you and yours.
    Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
    Texas, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 16:26:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.197)
    Karma:
    I agree with you totally on the Carbine, with the statement that I beleive if you try Win 296 you won't go back to H-110. I even preferred AA #9 to the '110. With 296 in a long barrelled 357, the actual velocities will truly astound. Will look into getting that Hornady half jacket to work. By the way, #9 or 296 need a bunch of barrel length to burn, both do real crappy in a 4" S&W, a little too slow for even a 6" python. As for cost, no different than shooting 357's. Sounds to me as if we definately have a pissed Marine there.
    'Lito:
    You been looking in my safe? This household has two, a Saginaw and an Underwood, mostly because my wife "confiscated" one years ago. See, I told you I could get a carbine string going! Man, I love stirring it! As you observed, for someone of the "light and feminine" persuasion, either that or the Mini 14 seems to be just the ticket! Any suggestions as to what size hole to drill in that gas plug? Got the 1/2 inch carbide bit ready :-) need me to do yours when I'm done? Guess I will start out with a 1/64 th and work up. WE SHALL SEE.

    To all:
    Have a good thanksgiving, and let's all remember to whom we owe the thanks. Man, I love this site, especially now that it's MEGA fast!
    Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
    Cedar City, Utah, USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 16:32:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.130)

    Hey Guys
    Haven't heard anything form Trigger 50 for a while on here ( can you blame him?) :-)
    Wasn't he due to have a book published in November. He sure seemed to know his ballistics so it should make an interesting read - anyone heard anything ? Didn't he have a website somewhere, can anyone remember where?
    Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
    London, UK - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 17:25:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.113.7.83)
    oh yea I forgot Happy thanksgiving people,,we truly are fortunate to be able to feast as we do here in America. Hell even our homeless will get a decent meal in a shelter today. I know Ill be loosening my belt a bit tonight,, and kicking back with a nice brew I will be thanking our ancestors who made it So.

    Yol bolson
    Partison
    Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
    Missoula, Mt., USA - Thursday, November 25, 1999 at 17:53:28 (ZULU) (