November 1999

Re: 6.5's. I love 'em, especially that Swede! Man, who ever came up with that one ought to have his weight in beer supplied free of charge yearly. I think I'm gonna sell my Swede Mauser though, hard enough to find a good stock, and then mounts? Now I'm thinking about that nifty Mohawk Remington action and how it would look in a 260 (since there's hardly any difference between the two). Hard part will be finding one... Any suggestions for good short actions from Rem? This is quite a lot from a guy hell bent on selling everything except a few rifles....

THANKS GUYS, I OWE YOU ONE.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 04:41:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.171)

I believe the 175gr Federal Match/Black Hills loads are basically the same as the M118LR.

Anybody got any sources for flexible cleaning rods besides Otis and "The Worlds Fastest Bore CLeaner"? I used a brass colored one once but can't remember who made it.

Out here.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 04:52:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142)

To the individual that asked about this.
The Civilian Marksmanship Program has these for sale. they sound a bit dog eared but.... The URL to CMP is: http://www.odcmp.com/

Sorry but I cant give you the exact page URL because their site isnt responding tonight. Look for the page of specials.. its on there. I can't recall the price.

J "did I miss anything in the last 4 days?" T
JT - MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@www.memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 08:58:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Specias>

NLU# 097

Riflescope ART II
Riflescope, ART II, missing parts/need repair, spots on lenses with mount and case. Note: Only one of each item per customer per year.
$275.00

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
MD, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 09:52:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.12)

R. Boucher: On the 338, has the military tested the rifle with a suppressor? Would seem to be one way to keep the halo from a brake down, and also lessen recoil should that be desired. A friend brought a 338L [Sako] over a few weeks ago...recoil is pretty strong when shooting at paper, or the like, but when we turned it on a coyote in the river bottoms...can't say I really recall the pain...although it was a miss at too far. Recoil is a relative thing, you know? I wouldn't shoot trap with my 10 guage, but when shooting at fliers...you can pretty much go as long as needed, assuming you have a need for that gun.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 15:12:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 15:14:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.102.31)

A local sport shop had one of those Remington "dealer's sales" and there were several PSS rifles (no .308's). The one in .243 seemed interesting so I bought it... couldn't help my self the price was very right. I suspect its a .243 VS in PSS furniture, in my case for $100 less than the VS.

I'm wondering if the .243 PSS is something Rem is doing now or was it an experiment. Anybody have any experience with them, and what do they shoot well?

Dave
(MCSO 403)

MCSO 403 <dandrox@montana.com>
Missoula, MT, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 16:32:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.2.139.183)

Jerry,
Your probably pushing the 6mms a lot faster and using a lot more powder too, esp if you have the 1-14 or 12 twist for the lighter bullets. They are definately the hot rod of the varmint calibers. How did yours shoot and what twist did you use?? Was it finiky on loads??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 17:23:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

The trigger from Fred @ Sharpshooters Supply is another excellent(!) Savage trigger but it only adjusts from 6 ounces to 2 pounds.

Timney can be reached @ (602) 274-2999.
Lefty <dfhubbard@erols.com>
Milton, MA, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 21:35:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.172.245.39)

Recently someone asked if I could get them an upper receiver in .300 Whisper from Olympic. I am reluctantly mentioning this on the Roster because the guy’s Email bounces every time I try to reply.

Paul (Ppchamp), if you are reading these words, YES. I can get you the .300 Whisper. In fact, it is IN STOCK and ready to ship. Please email me again and include your phone number. I will call you with details and pricing. Thanks.

Scott Powers

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 21:40:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.88.54)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 23:21:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.89)

Pablito:
Springfield Armory told me last year that only the current (later style) 1st Gen scopes allow sunshades since their threads extend to the end of the front bell. My front objective bell appears to have been cut in a lathe so that the threads stop before the end of the objective. An inwardly angled projection ( a cross section like a saw tooth- wraps around the entire interior circumference of the tube edge ).
Doesn't make much sense from a production cost- one more step.
I can't see a seam indicating it is removeable.

Re: plastic tubing.
A 58mm metal camera lens sun shade is about the right size.
I'm keeping a look out for some black plastic tubing, but I don't have much clearance between the bell OD and the barrel; perhaps 3mm. If I used a slip over tube, I'd probably end up chucking the sunshade material in my 8"" lathe and turning down the OD a bit for clearance.
Black silcone adhesive seems to be the best bet so far as I should be able to remove it without damage to the finish. I may end up combining an adhesive with some sort of VERY WEAK mechanical clamping force; I don't want to stress the optics.
I guarantee I will put a lot of thought into this before I do something that can't be undone.

Utgardaloki
Somewhere in the land of driver I.D. bargains...

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 23:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Utgardaloki
Somewhere in the mis-guided midwest...

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois , USA - Monday, November 01, 1999 at 23:52:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 02:39:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.4.211)

I have owned a pair of "BluBlocker" sunglasses for some years, and what I discovered immidiately when I got them is that they let you tell the difference between, say, dyed green burlap and (to the naked eye) green leaves look like red and yellow.

This happens because some colors are actually a mix of colors that look the "composite" color to the eye, if now blue is one constituent of this composite color, it will look totally different through a blue attenuating lens.

On the 6.5:
Unless you really need a short light rifle i dont really see the 260 have anything to offer over the 6.5x55.
Remember that factory, and most US load data load the 6.5x55 super soft, in deference to old krags and M96s. In a M98 there is no problem loading 130s to more than 3000. and my 140SierraMKs leave the barrel at 855m/s, or roughly 2850fps.
That makes me wonder if a 6.5/284 is worth the hassle and barrel burning.
Loaded to high(too high for krag and M96) pressures the -55 has a very flat trajectory, and the sectional density makes for good penetration at impact.

BTW, the 6.5/284 is also 55mm long, and so is just a real fat 6.5x55.

K
engvoll <engvoll@norton.no>
Norway - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 14:09:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.254.205.169)

have any of you heard of, or used, one of them "CO-AX" brand bullet case uniformity testers? Are they necessary? I have never heard of one, and a buddy of mine saw one in the wholesale sports catalogue, and asked me about it. Is it the next thing best to frozen pizza, or just another gimmic for sale that ya don't need?

Personally, i think that if you need to check the concentricity of the bullet, to the case, you need better dies.

What are your thoughts?

Does anyone here use a rifle that is larger than a .50?

I ask because the .50 is banned here in this country, but i wanna play too.... ;)

Later.
sean thomas <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
mackenzie, bc, canada - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 18:53:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.206.2)

Long time no speak! I have a question for you. I have an Eagle stock-pack on my rifle and cam-cream rubbed off my face and onto the nubuck part of it and left a nasty stain on it. Has anyone got a clue how to clean this stuff off?

Also, takr time to visit my review on SMTC's Basic Counter Sniper Course. Its here!

Thanks for thinking with me!

L8er!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 21:08:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.194.60)

Say you have a reticle, pencil eraser, decoder ring, whatever, that you want to calibrate in mils without working very hard. That is to say that you want to see how many mils that device subtends. Call that m.

Measure the exact height in inches of something vertical to use to calibrate that gizmo. Convert it to a decimal. Call that measurement h.

Move away the distance that allows the gizmo to exactly subtend h. Measure that distance in yards. Call that d.

Since Gooch’s formula implies that ((m*4)/111)=(h/d)), 9th grade algebra converts that to m=(h/d)*(111/4).

So, unless I screwed up something real easy: (height/distance)*(111/4)=m.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 02, 1999 at 22:59:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.42)

A few of us need an opinion on a "cheap" scope.
Midway has that 3-9x mil-dot scope listed again in this months catalog. Is it worth the $69.00 they are asking? It doesn't apear to have any focus or paralax adjustment, so.......

I know, you get what you pay for. But, can it be a place to start for a newbie to mil-dots to getsome practice?
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
you guys have, seen me post enough times , to figure where I live - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 05:41:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.6)

Thanks to all for the scope info. found out some things i didn't know which will keep me from buying something i didn't want.

I still don't like the Kansas wind but I am realizing it is a good time to shoot as I learn more in a breeze than i do on a still day.
Take care all
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 05:43:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.39)

Hey, I tried to access the FBI page you listed but no luck. "Page cannot be found", is the message I get.
I saw on one of the cable news "Shows" that the FBI said that the civilian militias are a threat to the security of the nation. I believe it was on CNN.

Later,
Bill Bledsoe <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 13:35:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.47)

Thanks Gooch, very interesting!
michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 15:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

You can sure tell whose political apointees did the final editing on this one. Pretty elementary propaganda technique, but good enough for government work. Dim-witted english-major reporters can rewrite it slightly and make it look like the editorial boards of the "National Review" and "The Wall Street Journal" want to burn babies.

But, even when taken with the required grain of salt, it's interesting.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 17:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.86)

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
Los Angeles, CA, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 19:02:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.11)

By the way, you referenced US soldiers carrying the HK 91's in desert warfare. I was at white sands missile range and only had the A2 '16. Is that something "operators" use or what is the deal with that? I guess I can understand that though, those '16s in the blowing sand were a recipe for either a jam or a eaten up aluminum upper!

Guys: you notice that the "arsenal" crap started right up again with that xerox guy in Hawaii? I mean, the way the media punks said that he had 17 guns, an "arsenal"! "What if he had them all there?" Guess those media guys don't think about ammo. Guess no one told him that he couldn't do that, after all Hawaii has the most restrictive laws in the US! Think they'll prosecute him or let him go like the rest?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 19:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

Does it mean lock the bolt back and load a round?
Does it mean put the safety on (lock the safety) and load a round?

It seems strange to manually lock the bolt back just to chamber a round and With the 1911, M-1, M-14 and M-16 series rifles don’t you have to load a round which cocks the hammer before you can put the safety on?

Should the proper phrase be load and lock?

thanks,
Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 21:14:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Check out www.wenig.com for replacement wood and laminate stocks for the Savage rifles. Awesome work - Fred Wenig used to be Operations Mgr for Bishop/Fajen, then went custom. I heard about him by the writings of Jon Sundra.

A laminated stock for Savage would run about <$200, a walnut stock equal to a factory Ruger, Rem, or Win stock would start around $100, less recoil pad. Fancier wood goes up from there, plus they have many patterns including benchrest types and will duplicate any pattern you have for about $25 extra.

They'll do the inletting, checkering, finishing, and will even fit the wood/rifle to you if you show up on their doorstep. I highly recommend their catalog, plus their reputation and service is second to none. Tight groups!
Lefty <dfhubbard@erols.com>
Milton, MA, USA - Wednesday, November 03, 1999 at 21:50:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.172.255.37)

How much pressure are you putting on your brass? Try to chamber a unloaded piece of brass after you size it. Also the 40X may have been chambered with a BR reamer. If this is the case you may have to turn the necks on your brass. The load you are using is a sound load but I have had better luck with 43.0gr of Varget for both bullets. Are you trimming your brass? I hope so since not doing so may have some dangerous effects on pressure. I trim mine to 1.999". Also you might want to see how much runout you are experiencing, its not usually a factor but one must examine all the possibilities. Is the brass you are using been fired in your weapon exclusively? Sometimes the shoulder can move foreward on you. I have a trick that I use with my .308 win stuff. I use a black "sharpie" pen to draw a lint through the "0" in the 308 headstamp. I position the brass so that the line is always facing down. When fired the brass is always fire formed the same way. This is to eliminate any variable in the chamber incase the barrel was chambered with a bit of runout. This improves your groups. But as you know, the little things count. Good luck, I hope I was of some assistance.
Semper Fidelis!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 01:05:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.3)

I have some loads for the 8x57 but I will need to refer to my logbooks for them. Did you know that Sierra makes a 200gr 8mm HPBT Match King? Yup! They are not for sale in the U.S. but if you go to their plant you can buy seconds by the pound! I plan on doing a road trip when it's financially feasable. I will post some loads for you when I dig out my log book for my mint DOU '43.
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma

Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 01:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.3)

Roger 90 OMMS
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, Florida, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 01:30:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.176.166)

It is possible for a scope to appear to be in focus but actually be slightly out. If the target/objective is in focus but the reticle is out a little they are in different focal planes and your eye can't get them sharp at the same time hense the fuzzy wuzzy action.

Go through the scope focusing procedure exactly as put forth in your factory manual or follow this extract from the TRGT databook.

Adjust the reticle first!

? Look at a distant object and allow your eyes to become focused on it. Quickly look through the scope at the sky or a blank wall and check to see if the reticle is immediately sharp and crisp. If it is, then no further adjustment is needed. If your eye has to re-focus on the reticle then proceed.

? Grasp the eyepiece and back it away from the lock-ring.

? Turn the eyepiece several turns so as to move at least 1/8". It will take this much change to achieve any measurable effect on the focus.

? Repeat step one. If the image is better, continue to turn the eyepiece in the same direction. If it is worse, turn the eyepiece the other way and repeat steps 1-3 until the image of the reticle is sharp and crisp immediately upon looking into the scope. Do this several times, taking the focus past the point of focus to ensure you have the clearest setting. Then lock up the eyepiece by screwing the lock-ring back to the eyepiece.

After the reticle is focused make sure it is locked down and don't screw with it anymore. (Unless you change eyeballs, glasses prescriptions etc). The only thing that should be adjusted after this is the objective if it is adjustable.

Follow these directions and you should be okay.

Pat. I'm guessing that while your scope was at the factory they refocused the reticle to factory settings and that's why it worked better.

That FBI report is pretty interesting. I've said for a long time that the main thing to fear with this Y2K thing is the stupid people that freak out and cause shit to go bizerk. Fuckin racists.

Out here

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 02:08:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.172)

M1 Garand. Think about it.

Next military trivia. Why is the final step of inspection arms to drop the hammer?

Sit Rick! Sit! No fair...
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 02:26:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.172)

Manny <MBM74@prodigy.net>
NY, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 04:15:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.212.206.44)

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UTAH, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 04:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

Thanks!

Good posts on reticle sharpness.

I had heard that the human eye can only stay focused for a brief period of time with optics of any sort (like less than 60 seconds) then things become warm and fuzzy. Strains on the cornea & eye muscles?
Think it was in that Russian Dudeski, A A Yur'yev that wrote a exceptional book on Russian shooters and sports physiology called "Competitive Shooting" but I am probably wrong..........

A mind is a terrible thing to waste!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 05:07:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.181)

The german "Frankonia Jagd" informs, that 200 gr Sierra Match Kings (8 mm S) can be purchased only by this company. I do not think that it is completly true, however you can contact them at the enclosed address.
The catalog price is 49 DEM/100 bullets (432,80 DEM/1000 Bullets)

FRANKONIA JAGD
97064 Wuerzburg
Germany

tel(ammo branch) +49 9302 2074
fax +49 9302 202 00

Andrzej
Andrzej <stopczynski@kredytbank.com.pl>
Warszawa, Poland - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 08:48:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.136.40.54)

Bravo: Yeah, the nut in Honolulu supposedly had 17 Guns in his "Arsenal". But he only used one of them to murder those 7 guys he worked with. As usual, the media places importance on the guns, and not the guy who did the killing. Just plain old lazy jounalism.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 10:23:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.61)

Being an Army CatII marksman, I was thinking of adding it to my collection of militaria.

Any info will be appreciated.
Thanks all for this site.
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 15:06:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.186.125.23)

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 15:28:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Ask Trotsky's question: "Who benefits?"

One thing you can be sure of: It sure wouldn't be the right-wing.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 15:51:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.5)

850-872-1212

Greetings Scott.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City , FL, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 21:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.51.81.42)

Utgardaloki
Somewhere in the Land of Lincoln

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 22:15:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Gooch:
Great description on the reticle focus. I've had to re-do mine a time or two as my lateral rectus muscles just ain't what they useta be. Not to mention loss of lens flexability. What really sucks is to discover difficulty focusing on the front site post on my .45.

Can't see the Kimber, PeteR, what's I g'wan do?

Pat,

Read some of the posts re: the 6.5/284. Do you think a long action would be a good one for building a 6.5/284? I've been holding an M70 CRF action (originally a 280 REM featherweight) and a stock from HS. Don't have a barrel as of yet. The idea of a repeater 6.5/284 has appeal.

Shot in my first night match last Sept. The old saying, "You can't hit what you can't see" has new meaning. Great fun, however.

Opps, back to work...

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 23:23:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

Lets say that I have a scope that has 1" adjustment per click at 100 yards. So would one click change the point of impact 2 inches at 200 yards, and so on?

Using the same scope, and a bullet drop of 60 inches at 600 yards, I would need to click up only 10 clicks. Is this right, or am I missing it completely?

Brian

Brian <heiterman@qnet.com>
here, there, USA - Thursday, November 04, 1999 at 23:42:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.221.218.207)

Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net>
Los Gatos , commiefornia, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 01:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.118)

Brian: Yes, you hhave it right. A minute of angle (MOA) is approx. 10" @ 1000 yds, and 1" @ 100 yds. Simple math. And the basis for most corrections in shooting.
Ed <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
Ft. Drum, NY, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 01:20:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.154.15.69)

"Lock and Load" certainly applies to the M1 Garand, as the bolt has to be locked open in order to load it. And smash the hell out of your thumb in the process!

Why is the last step in inspection arms to drop the hammer? I dunno unless it is to leave the hammer forward on an empty chamber.

Later,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 02:07:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.184)

Try this instead of torque wrench. Take the weight of the rifle and divide it into the desired torque value, 65 in/lbs divided by 12 lbs equals 5.4 in. This means using gravity to supply a constant calibrated force on a wrench at parallel to the ground and held 5.4 inchs from the end will appply 65 in/lbs of force. With the proper place marked on the wrench the proper torque will always be applied. Hope I have gotten the math right. This avoids the calibration and usage problems covered previously under the Air Force litany of torque wrenchs. Cheaper to.

Roger 90th OMMS
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, Florida, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 02:12:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.130.27)

Spud, Out
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 03:34:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

As far as I can tell it is to ease the tension on the hammer spring prior to storage. Plus it makes for a neat sound when an entire platoon drops the hammer at once during a parade.

See ya'll.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 03:40:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.138)

I just received my second set of Mk IV rings from Premier Reticles and the word is (in the published brochure) to use 65 in. lbs on the cross-bolts. The ring screws can be seated to 20 in. lbs with a light coat of oilon the threads. I have a Craftsman adjustable torque wrench in in./lbs that goes from 25 to whatever and I torque the ring screws at 25in/lbs. According to Premiers' literature the ring screws will take 50+ in/lbs. I broke down and bought one of their fixed torque-value T-handle wrenches and it is the cat's ass. Fine quality (SEECONK) with the date of calibration attatched. The rep from Premier assured me that I could also disassemble with this wrench and he is right. It definitely fits in the pack better than the Craftsman.
Sorry, I can't help you on the stock and action screws. No experience with that.
I found that you may want to attatch and detatch your MkIVs to the base (once all is assembled) a few times. They like to "settle" in I think. (And no' I,m not using aluminum bases, It's a Brookfield). Take care and hold hard!
Semper-fi!

Spud, OUT!
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, k-fornia, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 03:56:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

(GEE GUNNER, What do I win?)

Yeah, right.
Take care, and it's good to hear you again, Gunner.
Semper-Fi!
Top,
Out

dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, k-fornicate, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 04:23:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.162)

L8R, all......

Leslie
Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 04:36:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.91.22)

Pat L,
Another long lost stranger, how have you been?? Did you make it back to the Carlos shoot?? Jack said to tell you and Scully "HI" for him if I talked to you so "HI"!! Is Scully still with the Marines or did he fall to the temptations of civilian money(HA)?? The weather has been really nice here lately so I have been trying to ring out my new 308 so I can load this winter. Hows the M-40 doing?? Are you still shooting the 175s or did you go back to the 168s??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 14:19:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Dude, I got the group picture from The Carlos Match today.

Most excellant!

Gnarly!

TOTALLY AWESOME!

Whoa Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude.......!

:-)

Thanks!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 16:53:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.82)

Welcome back we missed ya!

Ashley offers the express sights with a BIG front dot & Vee rear for the Kimber dovetails. Brownell's has them listed in catalog #52 p. 249 plain and tritium filled.

When I get as old, palsied, and feeble eyed as Depity Dave and Al O.(who is a "SIG boy" in addition to his "other" transgressions EEE-yew) a set will go on my Custom Classic. HA!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 17:21:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.82)

You do like living on the edge don't you?

The rest of you... Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Checking my zero and getting ready for an operation in, Deceptively Quiet, West Virginia, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 18:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.120)

Call me next trip to ERJ, I heard they serve Geritol now at Outback, so no more Shoney's

Stay Safe on your side of the mountain....

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 19:09:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.56)

We all want to see your group s*x pi... I mean the groop shooting picture you are speaking of. In fact I'd love to see *any* pics from this last Carlos shoot.. anyone posted any? All I have seen is text.
Mike brought me back a T-shirt from the match, he gave it to me yesterday when we went shooting. Sounds like you folks all had a great time... Sure hope you make this a yearly deal.

Speaking of said day at the range, I am really pleased with what
Jerry Rice did to my Winchester Model 70. Mike had me on my belly pointing uphill at 200 yards and when I did my part the rifle did a phenomenal job... My best group of the day at 200 made a 4 shot hole resembling a 3 leafed flower. I'm very happy. Thanks Jerry!

Ken - Any new word on the server?

And finally to Gooch - thanks for posting that Y2K FBI link. I don't think I have seen 'right wing' 'christian' and 'violence' used so many times in such an easily debated yet official document. Much of it's assertions appear to me to draw guilt by association. Not good.

I did find one assertion QUITE interesting and QUITE worth thinking about. According to this document the US Government knows and believes that more gun control laws actually CAUSE more paranoia and potential for social *ahem* misbehavior in the populace. It also noted that many militias are REacticve and dont pose a threat unless the government starts taking away rights. Yet knowing this the congress continues to pass more and more restrictive laws. A paranoid person (or do we call them realists now) might just be able to make a case that when the congress passes such laws they know in advance it will have the potential to cause violence... both in the militias and in the general populace. This violence which they themselves expected would make it very easy to then justify much more massive and draconian measures and usurpation of even more freedoms if they ever desired to do so now wouldn't it? So what IS their true motive in the face of the fact that GC has proven a dismal failure everywhere it has been tried? Food for thought.

Speaking only for myself as always,
JT - Webmaster for lord knows who <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 19:27:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Thanks to those of you who mailed me and posted here about how to make sure that a scope was correctly mounted so as to make sure the darn thing lined up perfectly vertial.

One of the nicer responses I got in email was from kenya who I asked for permission to post here. He said yes, so here is yet another way.

JT

-begin included message reprinted with permission-

The best single device for level scope mounting are
several. For cross slot picatinny rail bases like
Badger Ordnance, D.D. Ross or AR flat tops, brownells
sells a great clip-on bubble level to level the
rifles action. For others, try the Scoplevel device.
After lapping your rings and with the action level
using the level bubble align the vertical reticle to a
thin plumb line set out @50 yards. Mildly tighten the
ring screws. Keeping the rifle still, check to see
that your vertical tracking maintains on the plumb
line as you adjust your elevation turret. A
collimator grid works much better. If close, tighten
all screws secure. After zeroing your rifle at 100
yards, and now while at the range (100 yards) get a
large (tall) target backer and draw a 1 MOA aiming
point and draw a 45 inch vertical line (use a
carpenters level) extending from and above the aiming
point. Dial your elevation turret up @40moa (for a
1000 yard 308WIN come-up) and shoot while aiming at
the 1 moa aim point at the bottom of the target. If
your group is still centered on the vertical line,
your done 'cuz your scope tracks vertically. If your
groups center is off line more than half moa (in no
wind), loosen your scope and rotate it to bring your
group on the line and retighten, repeat shooting
process rechecking your 100 yard zero after rotation.
This is a simplified route. Use an MWG scope level
bubble for long range consistent shooting. I assemble
long range tactical rifles and compete to 1000 yards.
This method assures your scope is tracking vertically
mechanically, which is more important than your
reticle being level when shooting multiple distance
engagements from muzzle to 1000 yards. Trust me
reticles can vary visually verses mechanically
tracking.

Good Shooting,
Kenya

-end included message-
JT - just JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 20:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Paul M.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
in, Alabama, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 20:52:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.107.24.117)

To refuse to differentiate between degrees of evil makes one evil's servant.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 21:25:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.16)

mike
mike <diver@rt66.com>
alb, nm, USA - Friday, November 05, 1999 at 21:50:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.79.116)

Joining new range tomorrow. Finally get a 200 meter range close to home. 12 covered rifle benches, covered pistol benches, good range!

A bud now wants me to get into BR50. More $. 541T to start with?

Keep your heads down, 50 some days to go until the world ends. LOL

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 00:55:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.43.204)

YOU ALL DO WRITE A 60 SECOND LETTER TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATORS EVERY MONTH OR SO DON'T YOU? If not, place a lovely weapon in the "collection box" at your local police station.

* The supreme court determined that the only arms guarenteed by the 2nd amendment are those of military nature, whatever would be in the US military arsenal at the time. Kind of blows a BIG hole in the "sporting purpose" arguement, doesn't it? Banned AR-15's? Yeah, right. Guess those M-24 / 40 weapons are guarenteed, as well as my M1A :-)

Best quote to date from Pat Buchanan: "I want the US out of the UN, and the UN out of the US!"

Sign me up as a happy-go-lucky future felon, assuming that not turning in my weapon (as in the California law) will make me a felon, and active "you want it, come and get it" anti-illegal disarmament type.
Sorry about the US centric message, but this one got me going. Remember the talk about passing a constitutional amendment to allow Reagan another term? Guess it could be worse, we could have clit-ton in office for another 8! HA! Better have another beer, I'm gettin' hot under the collar.......
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The land of the free, home of the brave! Cedar City, Utah, USA, Where the constitution still counts for something other than toilet paper! - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 01:13:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.168)

Must be a Missouri thing.
PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 02:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.184)

What to do? Grind out first-downs, one at a time. There's no easy way.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 04:18:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.16)

Just got my TRG-41, make's the ideal mate for the 21 I have already,at the same time brought a Sako Silencer for the TRG-21, it's Alloy and nice and light and only cost $100USD.
The .338LM gun will not be ready to shoot for a month or so,good thing's are worth waiting for.The main modification,is threading of the muzzle for a large telescoping supppressor.
The TRG-41 is a just a lengthened version of the TRG-21, and every bit as smooth in operation.

Just a note for those looking for a good bipod,you could do a lot worse than the TRG bipod,similar to PH type but much lighter and cheaper.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 08:31:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.174)

Clinton is not to blame for gun control. Gov. Davis is not to blame for the facist rules now sweeping California. Reno is not to blame for the runaway train that is what was once crimminal investigative arms of this government. Who is then? We are. You and I, and our friends, and their friends and their friends. You don't like your persent day rulers? Get off your ass, unite, and throw them the hell out.

If the Constitution means what is written, as I believe it does, then having thoughts of gun control, thoughts of vanquishing strong search and seizure prohibitions, thoughts of limiting or "reforming" the 7th Amendment, etc., are all acceptable. It is only in the absence of well reasoned thought, and hard work, that these weeds go to seed and soon choke out the cash crop. In my opinion, the speech you most dislike, is the speech you must fight hardest to allow...for as soon as we limit what *we* don't like, a slight shift in power will occur and they will limit what we like.

Gun owners, myself included, are one of the laziest batches of the population when it comes to working to keep what the Constitution *gave* us. Perhaps, like with most other entitlement programs, being entitled has led to apathy. Doesn't matter whether you are democrat or republican, both parties have allowed things to happen to the constitution that should cause us all to hang our heads in shame.

A month or so ago there was a "march" or assembly of gun owners in DC. Through what may have been poor organization, the date was moved a few times...which may have led many, such as this one, to be unable to go. Guess how many activists showed? 75. Not 75,000, or 700,075, 75. One soccer mom with a cell phone is a larger threat to the security of a toy store with a beanie baby table than we are to the groups that are shitting on our Constitution. Oh well, let's get another six pack underway...gotta go shine the NRA bumper sticker on the Ford today.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 16:36:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Recall the last election shortly after the Clintonista's enacted the Brady law and other totally UNconstitutional restrictions on the 2nd amendment to the sacred document our founding fathers created for us?

Well, with some well spent funding from the NRA to various pro-gun politicians and their PAC's, along with a rally by the rank and file
gun owning population in the country....... we sent Mr. Clinton and crew a message he'll never forget, and elected a Republican House and Senate. The democrats paid dearly for their attacks on gun owners once, and it was the turn out at the polls by normal gun owners with
shotguns, handguns, assault rifles, precision weapons, and smoke poles that made the difference.

Can we do it again? If it is to be, it is up to each and every guy you know that appreciates the shooting sports, personal protection, and the freedom that comes from our ability to resist and overthrow a tyrannical government run amuck.

Watch 6
MAXX
MAXX <gunrunner08@hotmail.com>
Near Blue Eye, AR, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 17:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.180.118.97)

Jason

Jason Nixon <jnixx21@yahoo.com>
Federal Way, WA, USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at 21:47:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.13.51.251)

As for the gun community, if it doesn't bother what "Flavor" you like it doesn't concern you, thats the way I see it from many a visit to different gunshops. One dedicated dove hunter(shotguns..Lots of high dollar shotguns) was overherad to proclaim, "Who needs more than THREE rounds??!!" For that matter, he went on..."those Army guns should stay in the army and not be on the streets"...When I asked him where it said who was allowed to only own 3 round guns, he called me a "whippersnapper" (I'm 45 !!) and that I didn't have much manners !! I may be a Life Member of the NRA but lately I have given more to GOA and JFTPGO( Jews for the preservation of gun ownership)... enough of this soapbox.. Whats better for 600 yds...168 or 175 ???
OUT HERE

Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
You oughta know, by now, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 03:00:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.149.60)

Thanks,

Scott
Scojo <lighthouseltd@juno.com>
I don't know where I am, AZ, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 07:08:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.172.5)

OK Will, I'll try to respond....

1. This Congress hasn't done a thing for gun owners, course they haven't done much of anything, just taken our money and bitched...NO reppeals, NO revisions..just alot of hot air !!

Q: If the existing Congress had managed the votes with a slim majority
to revise any of Clinton's gun laws, Clinton would have veto'd said
legislation as soon as it hit his desk. To make any progress, we all
have to work together to elect a Republican Pres. and keep control of the legislature.

2. IMHO Pres. Bush lost because he lied to the gunowning public and went ahead and signed the "magazine"bill.

Q: Odd, I can't recall a single gun owner I know that chose to vote for Clinton over Bush for his screwing us on the mag. bill. Give me any Bush over a Clinton. Actually, the reason stated for his loss (by about every politically astute consultant and analyst in the country on both sides of the fence) WAS clearly due to his crawfishing and backsliding on his read my lips promise to not raise taxes. I'm with you on the fact that he was a bit of a gutless wimp for signing the anti-gun laws he enacted, but how long are we gonna beat a dead horse? The worst Republican on the ticket in 2000 will not be nearly as big a threat to us as gun owners as any liberal puke socialist / nanny state democrat.

3. All this anti-gun crap goes back to 1934 IF NOT earlier !!! I'm tired of Republicans who do NOTHING, DemoRats who want to take away what I've got and the list goes on. Some of the same Senators and Representatives have been in office for over 16 yrs. Talk about stagnation !!

Q: Blame the gangsters and a few FBI administrators hungry for some press for the NFA act of 1934 that tried to end private ownership of Full Auto and Short Barreled Shotguns by the imposition of the $200
Treasury Dept. Tax on every single transfer. ( In those day's this tax amount was about twice the price of a good Thompson, and the plan was intended to price FA "gangster" gun's out of the market.) These
day's the same $200 transfer still applies.) Old geezers that have hung around the House and Senate so long they have become part of the corrupt system need to go, and again, our vote is the way to do it.

4. As for the gun community, if it doesn't bother what "Flavor" you like it doesn't concern you, thats the way I see it from many a visit to different gunshops. One dedicated dove hunter(shotguns..Lots of high dollar shotguns) was overherad to proclaim, "Who needs more than
THREE rounds??!!" For that matter, he went on..."those Army guns should stay in the army and not be on the streets"...When I asked him where it said who was allowed to only own 3 round guns, he called me a "whippersnapper" (I'm 45 !!) and that I didn't have much manners !!

Q: Again Will, you've hit on the key to our electing a full slate of Republicans..... It would have been great if you had taken the time and energy to explain to the old phart dumass dove hunter that the 2nd
amendment ain't about hunting. It's about keeping the gov.org in line
if a tyrant tries to declare martial law to stay in power.

I actually think that most Americans, young and old alike have been fed so much media propoganda demonizing guns and making folks that still understand the REAL intent of the 2nd amendment look like a bunch of fools........ that most of us lack the guts and grit to step up and speak the truth. Gun rights ain't about hunting. Hell, we'd hate to look like unsophisticated backwoods hillbillies for speaking
the truth.The liberals and their media have almost won this one, Will.

5. I may be a Life Member of the NRA but lately I have given more to GOA and JFTPGO( Jews for the preservation of gun ownership)... enough of this soapbox..

Q: Agreed again, don't cut the NRA funds off because of some of their
dumass moves here lately, they are the only group on our side with the
clout and cash to influence the corrupt process. I like the policy's of both the GOA and the JFPO better than the NRA's, but when was the last time you heard Clinton or Schumer bitch about the influence these
groups had on lawmakers? Give them all a few bucks.

Whats better for 600 yds...168 or 175 ???

I like 168's, but I resist changing anything that is working OK.

Enjoyed your post and the Soapbox is Closed.

Watch 6
MAXX

MAXX <gunrunner08@hotmail.com>
Near Blue Eye, AR, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 12:24:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.180.118.28)

WAAAA! WAAA! WAAAA!

On a more possitive note, a few select images from the Carlos Match at Storm Mountain have survived a trip through the services of the US Postal Service, been digitally excited (nope not that you toe fetish folks), and the sent at warp speed to a Cyber-space port half way around the world, and then slowly journied to this website.

It is my understanding that should Scott Powers return from a month long trip to Barbados, Bali-Bali, Bora-Bora, Wherever, other images (I took four rolls of pix at the match) should appear in the photos section........

Sorry for the delay, and I hope you like them.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 13:04:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.174)

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 13:38:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 14:29:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.224)

Maxx: It is not a democrat or republican problem. In fact, the ban on "foreign" made assault weapons by Bush was one of the most aggressive gun control laws, ever. Clinton has tried to match it, but so far no luck.

Peter: The Aussies thought it was funny too, at first.

That's it on the political front for me.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 17:13:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

I've got a .300 win mag that I've been working up loads for for some time now. It's a mod 70 LRH with a really long throat & it's really finiky about what it will shoot. Because of the long throat I've been working with 200 SMK's, however I've just had my other .300 rebarreled and provided the smith with unprimed cartridges for cutting the throat. That brings me to my question. In running various load combinations through my ballistics program, I've discovered that the 168's at 3200 fps shoot considerably flatter to 1000 yards than the 200's at 2800 fps (266 inches of drop vs. 317 inches of drop) with the 200's having a slight edge in wind drift (6 inches at 1000 yds in a 10 mph cross wind). I've always heard and have come to believe that the heavier bullets would perform better at the longer ranges. Have I been wrong. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Pat T.
Pat T <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 18:42:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

I don't know if all of you are professionals...
What do you guys do in cold weather?
I plan to do some trigger time this winter with my Savage 10fp and happened to wonder if you guys install larger “winter“ trigger guards on your rifles.

I know enough about conditions on the “Ostfront” in Russia and Finland during WWII to realize that combat doesn’t stop because of cold weather.
Any comments?

Gooch-

I’ve only seen photos of modern U.S. sniper rifles.
How much room is available for a gloved trigger finger?

To all-
Anyone care to speculate on the chances of a news media frenzy on Y2K next month?
Much more frequent coverage on terrorism, food shortages, power black outs, etc…
I can’t believe the networks will let the century slip quietly away without causing at least SOME panic among the great unwashed.
Too tempting.

Utgardaloki
Somewhere on a T1 in the mis-guided midwest.

Utgardaloki <Utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 23:25:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Rocky, a good choice for a "Spotter's Carbine" (M4/CAR-15) is either the MilSpec ACOG, or the Leupold 1.5-5X matte with mil-dots.

Jason, I hope you got my e-mail on getting started in long-range shooting and sniping in the Seattle/Tacoma Fort Lewis area. if you didn't, let me know.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Sunday, November 07, 1999 at 23:46:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

I have the Leupold 6x tactical w/mildot, and it's a nice scope, but I wouldn't get it again... it was really designed for "Hunter class" benchrest, which is limited to 6x. If your range is out to 300 yards, then mildots are a bit of over kill (not to mention they add $80 to $120 to the price. Any modern rifle cartridge can handle that without "milling"

I went to the I.O.R. web site, and couldn't find the "funky little 4x with the illuminated reticle".

Would you let me know where you saw it, as I have need for a "funky little 4x with the illuminated reticle", to go on a .308 Galil ARM, that I just found an orignal scope mount for (thanks, Montereyjack!).

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 00:30:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.62)

You might try polyprop liners under the fingerless gloves that have those little gripper dots on them. You can pull your fingers in the gloves then push your fingers out like a cat does it's claws. You can also ball up your fist to warm your finger-tips. When it's real cold you can wear loose mittens over this set-up. They slip off quick. This method has worked for me down to as cold as it gets in Idaho and Colorado. I have never been able control a trigger using regular gloves.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 01:19:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.25)

I have used the teflon finishes from Brownells and find that they work great. I first tried the standard non teflon finish and found that it was not very durable. The teflon stuff is well worth the extra money. I refinished a semi-auto Sig slide with it and have not had a problem. I also know of a guy that refinished a 7mm Winchester rifle and it also came out great. Give it a try. I found the stuff on Brownells web site.
C.R. Stoddard <stodddard@poncacity.net>
P.C., Okla., USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 01:23:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.76.245.109)

Ken

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 02:22:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.33)

Most common solution is to wear nomex flight gloves under your cold weather gloves/mittens. When the need to take a shot comes up, take off the outer shell and leave the nomex on. This way your paw doesnt freeze up, ruining the shot. THe nomex gloves leave you with enough manual dexterity to feel the trigger and fit inside of all commercial trigger guards.

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 02:42:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.158)

I shot some .308 Federal GM today, for the first time. I sprung for some just as a control measure, to shoot something that supposedly always shoots well. To compare to my handloads. Even though, being factory ammo, it would at best, maybe, shoot fairly decent compared to my carefully crafted masterpieces of munitions. How about, the best friggin' group yet with the rifle?! At 275 yards, paced and mil'd (40" plate made exactly 4 mils), five of the dang things into 1 1/4? I haven't been able to quite make that even with long-seated handloads. Federal's got to be cheating somehow....
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
XX, MI, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 04:34:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.146)

The 4x IOR-Valdoda looks like the Russian PSO-1 on the SVD/FPK.

For the cold-weather gunner, you might try a pair of Pearl Izumi Pittard Bicycling gloves. They copied the Nomex flight glove (in black, with spandex instead of Nomex) with a very thin layer of cold insulation. Wear these under GI trigger-finger mitten shells and you'll be comfortable enough in Korea or Northern Japan. When you take off the shells, the black really stands out against snow.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 05:13:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Bring good and warm clothes. 1) Use several layers instead of one thick layer. It keeps warm air better in and sweat and moisture can work their way out and leave the skin dry. Basically you need a good set of sporting/thermo underwear and maybe 1 or 2 thin layers of clothes and then you put the camo/snow white gear over all this. I usually use thinsulate jacket inside but this depends on the weather.

It might be usefull to sew inside the white overgarment some insulating mat (cheap insulating mat meant for using under you when sleeping in a sleeping bag). It insulates you from the ground, makes it more comfortable and prevents snow melting on to your stomach and groin areas. Of course a separate mat helps too, but these sewn-in pieces are allways with you.

Shooting hand: Allways use some kind of handshoes. Finnish Army issues nowadays a set of cotton handshoes (white) that are to be used when great "finger feel" is needed in cold climates. I am sure some fishing handshoes might be the ticket, but I am not aware of any real good ones. In any case you need thin handshoes and thicker mittens that are drawn over the thin ones, when not actually shooting. Shooting with bare hands becomes very fast impossible when temprature is very low and you risk even cold induced injuries to your hands very fast when themperature is -20 C or less.

I use myself a 3-piece system. First I have cotton/nylon knitted fingerless handshoes that are always on my hands. Then I put neopren fishing handshoes over these. Without the fingerless mittens inside these neopren handshoes become very cold, but with these thin knitted handshoes I have all the warmth I need. Neopren does not let water in, but usually these handshoes get punctured sooner or later, but it is no problem, they start then to function like wet-suits i.e. your hands are maybe a little wet, but they do stay warm. When skiing or doing something else, where "finger feel" is not needed I put large leather mittens over these. This is not optimal, but these leather mittens are white and insulate very well.

My system is not something official, but I have developed this system based on cost, availability and functionality. In the end my "system" is very big when I have everything on my hands, but I may still use a AK-47/Valmet M62 with no problems. One good idea is to have the mittens attached to your sleeves so that you can get them off in a hurry, but not lose them if you move from one place to another. In an ambush situation this works very good. If you can escape, then you still need your handshoes or you will lose your hands in the cold.

I think today a good system would be to buy some thin Thinsulate handshoes and a good leather of Gore-Tex mittens, that can be put over the handshoes.

Winter triggers: I do ot like them in a rifle, but a little bit larger trigger guard could be nice. One thing is sure, winter brings you new problems and some things that are possible in the summer are ot possbile in the winter. I.e. you can not wait for hours with your finger on the trigger motionless in winter no matter what clothes you have. Unless you sit inside a house or something. In our training we have realized that in winter a 3-man team is better than 2-man team. One man can go to a shelter where he can move a little bit and maybe eat or even cook something with a Trangia. This puts some restrictions on the sniper position.

There a lots of other little tricks that one learns only by doing but I hope these hints helped a little. BTW bring allways spare socks and even a spare underwear set. This way if you get too sweatty you can allways change to dry clothes.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 07:56:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Cold hands are a real problem for me, I seriously burned my hands a few (20 or so) years ago and ever sence then cold weather has played hell with my hands. One of the disadvantages to working in law enforcement is the necessity to be out in the weather no matter how bad it gets. It seems that people don't change there attitudes and habits just because the weather is bad. Over the years I have tried several ideas that work, they include:

Wal-Mart sells a Thinsalate lined leather glove in both black and brown (It is called a "Shooting Glove" and can be found in the hunting supply section). It works quite well and fits with no problem inside my trigger guards. The only problem I have found is that on some gloves the fingers are too long, I try on all the sets they have in my size and buy several pair that fit.

Race drivers have used nomex driving gloves for years and thay have a leather palm and finger surface. These gloves are avaliable in a whole range of colors and are quite good for feel. Again, no problem getting them inside the trigger guard. These are some of the most flexable gloves I have ever worn and they transmit tactile information suprisingly well. They can be had in a whole series of layers some as light as flight gloves, some as heavy as guantlets but the guantlets will not work well as shooting gloves.

When I hunt I wear a silk glove liner under a set of mittens with a trap door that lets my fingers out. If the weather is not too cold I just wear the liners. They do not block the wind much but if it is still they do an amazing job of keeping my hands warm.

I also have some polypropalene (sp?) glove liners, they are heavier than the silk liners and work better as light gloves.

When it is really cold I have a set of leather, down filled, mittens. They don't work at all in a trigger guard but when it was 20 below and blowing 30 mph at the police academy the week that we had to qualify I wore them up until the time the range officer blue the whistle to start each stage. I had them tucked under my arms and just pulled my hands out of the mittens and let them fall to the ground My class mates all laughed at me when I walked to the line but several of them had ordered a set by the end of the week. They came from L.L.Bean.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Waking up with frost everywhere in , Chilly, West Virginia, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 13:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.114)

I found that contact with the trigger blade drew the heat from my finger tip like a magnet. In fact any contact with a metal surface in REAL cold weather is Baaaaaaaad Ju-Ju. If you're fingers happen to be a little moist at -30 below zero or worse, things got just a little "sticky" sometimes.

Another thing to consider is goggles/sunglasses, snow and the reflection of light will do a number on your eyes and I think it may have affected my night vision too. The cold will trash your eyes too.

Tony's heat packs are a great idea and sticking a couple in a pocket or pack can make a big difference. I had them in my pack at Carlos just in case. In Alaska, I used a "Jon-ee Warmer(sp?)" hand warmer on a length of cord to hang on my back under coat at about kidney level and that helped too. Heat packs did not exist then.
O'Course I was not evading FLIR, just trying to survive in what could be/ turn into/ a deadly weather enviroment at any second.

Chao!
peter <pngreiff@aol.com>
big city, by-gawd, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 15:45:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.26)

Gloves: I like the Nomex unless I have to be in briars and then I go to straight leather gloves.

Update on Carlos Article: Just about finished and it should be on the way to Tactical Shooter next week

Dave L.: Have you plated with the IOR Scopes much. I tried a 10x56 a few years ago and the adjustments were crappy then. Optics were great but wouldn't make accurate adjustments.

Dave Rolls, I will try to give you a call in the next few days.

Gooch, I read the FBI report and it is a little concerning to say the least. You and Minnie Me up to no good?

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 16:14:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.184)

It should be a great chance to work out the bugs in your cold weather gear and cold weather zeros.

We need 10 students to run it and the cost will be 300. per head. RSVP by Nov. 30, Phone is 304-446-5526.

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 16:28:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.176)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 18:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.47)

About scope mounts for a Savage 10FP.
I couldn't find short action scope mounts for my 10FP
I bought a two piece Weaver mount for the Savage 110FP.
I don't recall the Weaver stock number.

They are aluminum, so I don't know what may occur due to expansion rate differences between the steel receiver and the mounts.

I used Leupold quick detach scope rings.
They can snag on brush, but I didn't see anything else at the time
and don't expect to be crawling around in a ghille suit.

---> I leave that to the professionals! <---

To all-

Thanks for the tips on staying warm.
The local specialty stores will be VERY happy to see me!

Utgardaloki <utgardaloki@law.com>
Illinois, USA - Monday, November 08, 1999 at 23:37:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Mike, I've only played with the PSO-1 style scopes a few times. Mike Haugen (one of the regular Tactical Shooter writers) taught it and a pretty ingenious ranging system to some fellas in South Asia a few years back, using their SVD's, and said they weren't too bad. Maybe comparable to the M1C or M1D.

Pete, I know what you mean by that life-sucking Alaskan cold. Korea is a lot like that. We'd lay up in night ambush sites in the DMZ with the furry back mittens, M1951 "fishtail" parkas, Mickey Mouse boots, on top of the grey GI Ensolite sleep pads. For those who've never tried it, I gotta say you've never experienced winter war 'till you've frozen your cheek and nose to a CAR-15 buttstock, or heard a frozen M16 firing pin break when you're trying to initiate an ambush.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, where it donesn't get as cold as Finland!, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 02:57:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.214.17)

Okay Pablito, Tony, Mike, and the rest of youn'z - let's get back up to SMTC so we can freeze our asses off - and learn some more good stuff.

Ken :)

Ken <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 03:44:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Look out!! Incoming!!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 04:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)

Can anyone post to my email any information on the 5.7*28 FN individual carbine?

Any info or leads will be helpful.
thanks
Darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Tuesday, November 09, 1999 at 06:19:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Regular water bottles do not work and I have had my share of solid frozen plastic bottles. No wonder the US versions warn against heating the bottle against a hot surface. Plastic will melt long before the whole ice chunk in the bottle has melted. Best thing is to leave the plastic bottles home/to base.

BTW it IS NOT wise to drink cold water in winter even if it tastes good. Your body has to warm the water and it takes energy which could be used for other purposes. Cold water also tends to get make your lips and throat sore very fast. And a coughing ambusher is not a very good one to have in your ambushing team. Also do not eat snow. It has the same effects as cold water PLUS it does not contain any minerals, it is bad for your system.

Solution: Use stainless steel thermoflasks. There are several sizes available and I suggest 1 liter or a little less is sufficient. The smaller bottles are nice, but they get cold faster and they do not hold much liquid in the bottle. This thermoflask thing is a city boy approach, but then again I am one :-) Water is of course warmed in the camp before leaving. Here in Finland a good stainless steel thermoflask costs maybe 20 USD so they shouldn´t too expensive for anyone. They do weight somewhat, but hey, in WINTER YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE MORE EQUIPMENT. There is not a way around that fact.

Our long range patrol/guerilla groups are much better in the woods and good northern lumberjacks and hunters can have their cup of coffee in five minutes with only matches, a knife and something in which to melt the snow. This is called "Kynsituli" or "nail fire" where you burn only a handfull of dry birch (or something similar, it must be dry) and the name comes from the idea that the fire is so small that it warms only your nails. Also if done properly it wont generate smoke at all. In dark the light will of course show, but it can be handled too.
I have read several stories about our long range patrol making tea in the WWII WHEN they were skiing away from Russian antiguerilla searching parties following the Finns. So it can be done, but it is a special skill that one learns only by doing it all the time in the woods. In Korea with very little vegetation in many places this of course will not work at all.

To end: Try to drink regular warm water at all times, because water melted out of snow is only a poor substritute. One can use snow but then one must eat sufficient amounts of salt, otherwise you will have the same problems as in desert where you lose all your electrolytes due to sweating. It is said that tea, coffee and alcohol should be avoided as they cause you to pee more often. This way you lose both liquid AND wamrth, so they should be avoided. From my own experience I know that lame tea tastes good with sugar and it does not force me to empty bowels all the time, so I drink it. Coffee and alcohol I find unacceptable in winter time in the woods, even in civilian life.

All in all in winter time one has to have fire or warmed water from time to time, otherwise one probably dies or is at least unable to take care of other matters than pure survival. This is one reason why I think a 3 person sniper patrol is better than a 2-person patrol. A skiing patrol leaves tracks in any case, so one person more does not cause any more problems in that sense. More equipment (a .50 for eaxmaple) is also