Sniper Country Duty Roster

Gents,

I have to weigh in with Mike on this one. WHY put a muzzle brake on a .308? I can see having it threaded for a suppressor, but a muzzle brake? All the do is kick crap up and give you away...now a "can" is right up my alley.

Elk hunting this weekend. Would love to get one...well see. Going into the dark places where they are holed up after last weeks first hunt. If I get one I don't know where I'll put it...just took delivery of 200+ pounds of prime beef from my sister's farm. Oh, well. It's a problem I'd like to have...

Started a new work out regimen today. Not overdoing it, but working up. I am not going to have a damn heart attack at 52! It's going to be a long road back.

Get's go on the raffle!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 00:36:55 (ZULU)

JR; I agree with your plan for turning Iraq into a silicon factory anyhow. And obviously most actives would deny they didn't think they'd get called up. You know what? I hope your right about that too. There are so many recruiters here working with that get a education, have fun and enjoy the travel theme, it's hard for me to think it hasn't worked on some of them. I'd not say that serving in any fashion isn't a good thing. But the women in combat thing is just hard for me to warm up too. I don't have a problem with women serving but combat is a problem for me. ahh hell, it just ain't right to me.

Brogers
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 00:37:03 (ZULU)

Ken.

The raffle is to support the site, right?

If so, my money is ready.. bring it.

Oh, and it's also really nice that someone is gonna win a rifle too.

CDC - since when do you listen to the yellow press? The girl hasn't claimed to be a hero as far as I can tell...exactly whom are you reacting too?

medicjim
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 01:33:51 (ZULU)

Concerning Miss Lynch.....I am proud of her, however the larger issue is why a politically correct bunch of looney toones sees fit to place American Womanhood in the situation she was in. It is insanity to require a different standard in training for women and then place them in combat situations simply because it makes us "feel good". It's a damned shame when a few judges and politically motivated nitwits create a situation such as this, mind you TOTALLY UN-NECESSARY,whereby a young girl from West Virginia goes through what she did for a few gov't perks. I do not question her motivations, Patriotism, or Honor at all. She has given more than I, and may have very well known fully the risks involved. Nevertheless this has got to be the most diabolical case of bait and switch on the part of the U.S. government and our society as a whole, that I have ever been witness to.

God help the ones who give the orders which place our young women in this position and a pox on the judges who force them to......It is insanity.......

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 01:47:12 (ZULU)

'Yote,

I agree 100% that the recruiters are going 'round promoting world wide travel plans, with free edjumication and a monthly pay plan as well, without mentioning the real facts...Been there, done that, which is why I didn't join(was a righteous smart ass punk then, sometimes I could just slap myself)..I think I scored in the top 1% on my ASVAB's, so if it wasn't every week, it was every other week the recruiters, ie slimeballs, were trying to convince me in such manner, hounded my ass..But, once the grunts get thru Basic and AIT and find their job, these kids are hard and for the most part realise what the hell they are up against..

Aint a helluva lot different now then in the olden black and white days, ya know, BC(Before Color)TV...I remember dad recalling when he enlisted, recruiters kissed his arse, his moms arse, dad's arse, with a wide ole smile, hell 'nam ain't nothin but a holiday spot...then he got on the bus that took him to basic, whole new ball game..there were DI's on board then, you friggin maggot...full grown men were bawling and trying to escape before they even made it to base camp..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 01:49:45 (ZULU)

If these P.C. bastards believe in their "program" so much, let them try to make her experience the sales pitch for future female recruitment........

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:01:19 (ZULU)

muzzle break;

I would prefer not to have it. Maybe have it available to the winner as an option? What about having caliber as an option too? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to win it in any form!

Lynch;

I think the reason we hear and see so much about her is that she is the liberal media darling. I'm not saying it is by her own choice.

The liberal left is run by many factions including feminists. They found a fairly cute, all American looking young woman who endured a bad situation. Now they will exploit that and the "new" Army is in full support of it.

I mean, why not turn all of the POWs into celebrities? They all were captured, right? None gave in, right?

I'm not real fond of women in the military either. Just to old fashioned I guess. I'm not in the Army anymore, so I don't have to live with that.

And that's all I got to say 'bout that. ;)

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:08:10 (ZULU)

Bruce, you got mail.......no att........

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:18:19 (ZULU)

Turn Iraq into a glass factory? Come on guys. All of Iraq aint the problem its a small number of terrorists who are killing just about as many Iraqis as occupation forces.

Our guys will get a handle on this. I just think we called off offensive operations too quickly. I dont think we ever got a surrender did we?? We just stopped and took over.

DOes anyone have any historial references regarding the occupation of post war Germany and Japan? I would really like to read up on that some.

Spent the last couple of days at Benning. Great kids here.

Out

Gooch
BumFuck, AR, US of A - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:49:47 (ZULU)

As usual, I'm a couple years late on this question. I wanted to get you guys' opinion on the QuickCuff sling. Is anyone using them? They sound very nice. Does anyone have anything bad to say about them? Are they "match legal"?

Off the subject...I went to my club to watch the high power match this weekend. It's a 600 yd match. Anyway, there all all these guys with amazing custom rifles there. This 20 year old girl shows up and wins the match and sets a new course record with a borrowed rifle. Her name is Sherri Gallagher. From what I understand she's the world long distance champ in one of the disciplines...(not sure which). Very fun to watch.

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, ne, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 03:26:10 (ZULU)

Fire UP that raffle. I'm on for it!

None of the REAL heroes meant to be heroes that I ever heard of. Visited with and worked for 2 or 3 MOH recepients during my time in.

I watched that bitch asking Lynch some of those questions last night. I got the impression that the little LADY (and I mean that w/ respect) wants the public to know just how bad these assholes really are that we're trying to eradicate over there and elsewhere. She probably figures that she has to "dance w/ the devil" in order to get her message out.

Come to think of it, if that's true, she IS a hero. But what CDC said in his explanation about his first post is right on the mark. She was there and got hit. In that situation, she was a victim, like so many others...

I had some females that were peers and also my troops in the old days. A couple of 'em were what I used to call "Studs". (They told me they liked that term, later.) Hard-assed, tough farm girls. Whip the shit outa most of my male troops. If push came to shove, I woulda been happy to have 'em on post "in the shit".

BUT. They STILL don't belong in COMBAT, DAMMIT!

USe the M3LR w/ GenII. Shot a LOT and keep your dope book. Don't need no dedicated dial.

SPUD

And Semper -Fi to ALL my brethren in arms, past and present. (And YES, the females, too.)

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 03:46:44 (ZULU)

Ernie Pyle quote by Medicjim;

Hard to put into words...

Helped some over...

One of the toughest things you'll ever do.

Anybody up for a toast w/ some old No.57?

I SURE as hell am.

To the FALLEN!

Mike,you know of Odin's Triangle?

My remaining sons and I will be wearing one as soon as Eric (the middle boy) finishes drawing it up.

Spud

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 04:33:58 (ZULU)

JR, don't ride the bike for a week, ha ha,schnauzer,laughed my ass off.. you save some more of them jokes for the IWA.

Basic training.. the British basic training has become some what of a cake walk, instructors ain't allowed in to the barrack blocks after 21.00 or before 06.00, soldiers are turning up at active units unable to pass basic fitness tests. The reason bieng that young civies are going soft, spend to much time playing on the PC and the play station and not enough time out doors and running around, they are turning up at recruit depot with no preparation at all. The basic training has had to be softened to avoid very high failure rates, and the basic training period(boot camp) of what is it now 12 weeks or so justain't long enough to get these blokes fit enough for active duty, the responsibility is then passed on to the training staff within the active unit these fellows end up at,which is great when you turn up to a unit unfit and deploy within a few weeks. The recruiting staff have to sell the job, like selling any other job, and they naturaly say more about the positive sides of military life, damn if they had told me you'll end up with heamoroids from sleeping in holes in the ground, a screwed up knee and most of the officers you will meet will be total wankers, maybe i'd have thought twice about joining, and after serving we all do the same as the recruiters, forget the bad times and remember the good, basicaly anyone entering the British army is, compared to thier civilian counterpart, on the slow track to a promising career, how often do soldiers see thier civie counterparts advance through a career path far far quicker than within the Military, you give 22 years and come out at 40 ish and are(unless you had a trade within the military) almost umeployable, exept maybe in the security industry, so you end up guarding a supermarket, whilst all your friends from school are managers, or other professionals on big bucks, with flash cars and nice houses, whilst you are driving an old car because you sold your tax free mercedes to pay off some debts and you are living public housing.Sure, some guys end up differently, some further educate and get decent jobs, but i bet the above scenario is fitting for probably 60% of all Brit retirees who have served between 12 and 22 years. Some time in the Military is good for anyone, but unless you intend to complete the full time and then go onto extended service, i wouldn't recomend staying any longer than about 6 years. When i joined basic training was a bitch, and i was very well prepared and fit, P coy was worse and JMC (corporal qualif) worse still, character(sp) building and purposefull training that has proved usefull in many situations,I am glad i left at 10 years,i certainly have a far more promising career ahead of me than i would have if i had stayed in. anyway, ive gone tataly off track now, what i wanted to get onto was that every soldier should be trained as a soldier, yes agree with that, it was so when i was in, with not just infantry deploying in the infantry role but tank regts, transport and Arty regts, mechanics, cooks, techs and yes ARMOURERS all spending time deployed as infantry, where the system fell down a bit was continuation training for non infantry soldiers in infantry tactics and methods, i was lucky, bieng for most of my career with Infantry Bns, i got out with the toms and the jocks and did thier training, was part of a Coy and got on every exercise and trainig course i could (sure beat guarding the damn barracks) not to mention bieng Armourer for and shooting on the shooting team constantly. But for the most part there isn't enough money or time spent on continualy training non Infantry soldiers in thier basic infantry skills, its fine in peace time but when the shit hits the fan it causes problems.

anyhow, enough of that.

Got to the range yesterday ( 6 hours late) and am very pleased with the performance of my 308 hunting rifle with Norma 180 grain vulkan soft point factory ammo, getting 10 shot groups about an inch( which was me wobbling a bit) and 3 shot groups of about 15mm, which ain't bad for a reworked factory stick with factory ammo, i did spy a stainless Remington 700 at the range that was for sale, it was a 300 weatherby mag, with a leupold on it.. can't afford it, i need 2 new doors for the newly built rooms in the house,a arrrggg.

Jon, B, confirmed order of all the kit you wanted.

Elk hunting.... i am extreemly jealouse.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 07:36:34 (ZULU)

I have been reading this site and shooting with quite a number of the regular posters for over the past four years, but I don't ever recall reading a post from Chandler. I am not knocking the guy or his products, as I understand that they are both top notch, but aren't raffles about funding worthwhile causes and recognizing regular contributors?

Michael
CA, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 07:41:53 (ZULU)

Gents,

Oh darn! A muzzle break! My advice is to stay away from this raffle. Yep--don't youz buy a ticket; notta one! I'd hate for ya if ya had to endure a muzzle break.

And just to be fair, I will step up and win this stick so youz won't hafta worry none...I think I have room in the safe for a breaked 308, maybe one slot---so it ain't no problem.

I know, mighty big of me...but heck--that's what friends are for!

Now when I win; how do I take possession? Can policewoman (wife V3.1) take delivery? Heheh, even if I could get it here--getting it home would be tricky.

BGs making noises all around. Something wicked is afoot---pray for our troopers vigilance...and why not, add one for KMOI too; you can only be so good---a little luck is always nice. All I can say is forewarned; forearmed remains to be seen. And, I hope that "cry wolf" hasn't taken any toll from the previous chatter; some warnings are far better than others. Too bad the specifics in each case are close hold; the troops only hear "stand-to" but not the "why" of it. Like I said, some "why's" are better than others. These last days of Ramadan may be busier than the first days...to include CONUS.

Too bad I already have such a deep hatred of terrorists, because I could really start to despise them about now...heheh.

On a side note: Terrorists are referred to as "gurrillas" in the local press (fairly moderate by our standards) As in, "Hezbollah Guerrillas struck at Israeli Occupation zones, four invaders dead" or, in our lingo--terrorists struck civilian settlements killing a family of four. It is a sad state of affairs when "friendly" arab nations are sympathetic towards animals who target women and kids...GW had it right, this is a long struggle on many fronts. One of which is popular opinion in the middle eastern region--that must be addressed or we just fight them as fast as they birth them.

And we bitch about a 'liberal bias' in our press....heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 09:17:40 (ZULU)

MAJ Joe's right re muzzle break (AND barrel length) guys: quite your bitchin'! You haven't been paying attention anyway: the man said it was already made, in the box, ready to ship. Oh heck, the MAJ's right about about the raffle too: stay away! You don't want that sub-standard stick with the long barrel, somebody might think you were a poser! Oh, and sorry Joe: must be present to win, guess I'LL have to accept the burden of owning this rifle.... ;o)))

Iraq as glass parking lot:

Frustration talking, sure I feel the same sometimes, but you guys all know better. I was warned that we had people unsympathetic to our sport & worldview monitoring this site: lets not give the idiots any more retorical ammo.

NG & Reserves:

There are definitively some who signed up with no thought of ever having to pay the price. That is also true for active duty (OK, before you jump: I've been both). This is the pay-back for the army adopting a recruiting scheme that sells benefits, adventure, & career instead of service. I've spoken against it. I've even gone out on my own hook to recruit on the basis of Duty, Honor, Service. Much as it pains me to say it, the Corps has always had this right, and they reap the benefits. The Army is in dire need of a top-down enema: there are an awful lot of high-ranking people who need to be gone. -rant off-

PFC Lynch:

She's OK in my book. I've never heard anything from her claiming, or pretending to be anything she's not.

Women in Combat:

Against it. The reasons are legon: physical, mental, social. We all know what they are: listing them for this crowd is pointless. One note though: I don't think anyone here would begrudge a female wanting to serve her country, and there are plenty of jobs for them to do (that they'd probably do better than a man anyway). The disbandment of the WACs was a sad day for the Army. Those who've pushed us to this sorry state of afairs (where young girls like PFC Lynch are wounded & captured in combat) will bear a heavy load when they come before thier Creator.

Bill McCormick
82d Airborne, '86-'90, F/2/278 ACR now - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 13:12:08 (ZULU)

Pete,

Trying to reach you via email but getting returned. Need info on Infantry bergans.

Thanks,

Bill

LMALTERNA**@AOL.COM without the **

Bill Moore
Rnke, VA, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 13:33:08 (ZULU)

I ran across an interesting note on the disparity in post-war casualties in Iraq between the Marines and the Army. The Army patrols largely in vehicles. The Marines largely patrol afoot. Guess what gets attacked? Right - the vehicles. When the vehicles are attacked, everyone has to bail out, and much effort is expended handling the casualties. If the Marines come under fire, they attack. At one time, when the author wrote the note I saw, the casualty disparity was a ratio of 50 to 1. I hope someone is paying attention to that, and perhaps someone is, as I note more Marines are headed back to Iraq as part of the rotation, but it would be a good idea to get patrols out of those vehicles where possible.

Please note that I'm not trying to disparage the Army, just point out a procedure which isn't working.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 13:41:10 (ZULU)

On Lynch,

Not exactly sure about her, she playin the interview circuit and reaping rich rewards. Anyone hear if the media is planning on noticing the soldiers that were her fellow POWs? Or the ones that died fighting in the ambush? Enough said....just let if go... the media wanted a darling and they played it up. She's a pawn by this liberal #ss media in america.

The comments made about foot vs. vehicle patrols... Army has always been a slow learning machine at times. Dont mean to make ppl mad, (I'm a 14 yr vet-Army)...its a problem that can only be fixed by general grade officers getting out of thier well protected CPs and ridiing along with the patrol. Not gonna happen. But glad to see we're taking a more agressive posture last few days. Gurrillas put fear into the population to either support them or stay out of it, so a little fear from us might reverse the trend.

On another note, pray for our vietnam vets...saw a news story last night that the gov. is now going after MIKE FORCE soldiers for war crimes that were committed in Nam. What reason is there to be diggin that up now?

Steve S out

Steve S
Airborne Ft. Bragg, NC, usa - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 14:59:03 (ZULU)

Gooch; Anyway your right about ceasing offensive operations too soon. Right at this moment we are looking at a potential Vietnam if we don't get back to kickin ass. There were some attempts yesterday to do just that. Hopefully it will reaffirm we ain't there for a picnic in Grenada.

Joe; One mans terrorist is another man's guerilla/freedom fighter. That how you tell what side they are really on. I think that was the point you were trying to make.

Peter L. ; we got the same problem over here. These kids can't lift anything larger than a 6 pack. Somehow we get em ready and send em to hell like always but they start out far underprepared for what they are going too. I've always said if wars had to be fought by 50 year old draftees there'd be very few wars. Guess that's been the case since the first army was formed. Nobody has joined in this country to lose a war. We used to have this "draft" system whereby we took em all in that could march and kept the ones that proved they could fight and die. But we're a "kinder gentlier" country of nice guys now. We offer our women and minorities the same opportunity and color it political correctness. We don't even have the luxury of religious faniaticism to build enough hate to make a real shit kickin warrior.

It's a wonder that people aren't knockin down our sky scrapers with hijacked aircraft while we sleep at the wheel ignoring the threat if the enemy is of a different religious faith or culture.

Brogers
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 14:59:14 (ZULU)

OK, I have some things for ya'll to ponder.

Gooch mentioned the postwar occupation of Germany and Japan, but we do not have a similar situation. He also mentioned that we stopped the war too soon, which is another issue I'd like to address as well. So, here goes:

Stopping the war too soon. This one was determined by the ragheads. When they stopped resisting, we stopped the militray ops and started going into occupation ops, there isn't much we could have done otherwise and not looked like barbarians. Now here's the controversial part, we needed to act like barbarians.

Germany and Japan were easy occupations because we CONQUERED THEM. Germany took over 10 million casualties and Japan over 4 million and both of their countries were rubbled and their populations starving. It's hard to resist with a distended belly. Sorry, but the ragheads ain't even close to this level yet and we won't let them get there. Without the emminent threat of eradication, the fuckers are not going to take a nice hard look at themselves and sort themselves out. They know we are not going to do this to them, and thus they continue to resist. The Germans and Japanese were defeated and they knew they were defeated. The Iraqi rags are resisting the same as the Palestinian rags, they have not been convinced that they have lost yet.

We should have simply let the USAF bomb Iraq for a few monthes with iron bombs from B1's and B52's. Really rubble everything and start the starvation process. Make sure that very little food gets smuggled into the country. After you bomb them out, then you can go in and conduct the ground war, win that and start the occupation/rebuilding process from square one.

That would have been the ideal solution. Now, we have to do this the Malaysian way, isolate the bad groups and starve them out until the locals give them up. This is going to take mucho cojones and we're going to get really hammered by the internationalists. Love is not an emotion expressed by a group, hate and fear are. They will never love us, it is not possible except in brief little meaningless snippets. We will have to accept their respect and fear of our power in place of love.

Recommended reading: Victor Davis Hanson, Ralph Peters.

Dulles on the occupation of Germany: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20031101facomment82601/allen-w-dulles/that-was-then-allen-w-dulles-on-the-occupation-of-germany.html

Click on my name for the US DoD history. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M
USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 16:03:58 (ZULU)

Gent's and Ladies;

Okay, let's get this rifleraffle on the go! I leave for a Bahamian cruise tomorrow and won't be able to lurk for the next two weeks! I ask you to either get the raffle set up, or at least keep it open until after Turkey day so I can sign up-- muzzie break or not!

Policies? Hell, I build bombs for a living (legitimately... no subversion intended!!!), so I may have an over-simplistic view. While many here (western world) think we have to pussify our actions to show we're "human", many of the turd world areas don't view this as anything but a sign of weakness. David didn't appease Goliath with a kind word and a soft hand, he KILLED him. Ditto on the previous posts RE: the DEFEAT of Germany and Japan. We didn't stop as soon as they were no longer a "significant" threat. We beat the hell out of them and took away their will to fight, and now look where they are... two of the most techicaly advanced countries in the world, thanks to the policies WE set up after OCCUPATION. Sometimes I think back to my very un-PC days, I guess I won't repeat here in case lefties are lurking. They don't need any more ammo agains a warmonger.

Anyone seen the following list?:

Egypt; $2Billion, 79%

Jordan; $193Million, 71%

India; $143.7M, 81%

Pakistan; $6.7M

Sudan; $1.1M

What is it? It's how much we (US taxpayers) send to those places, and the percentage is how often they vote AGAINST our interests in the UN. Also our friends the Kuwaitis, 67%; Qatar, 67%; Morocco, 70%; Saudi Arabia, 73%, fo the amount of negative support we get from these folks. I often wonder why we even bother. They've been fighting each other for years, and they'll continue to do so no matter what some outside source tries to do. Somewhere back in their history some Mustaffa got his goat stolen so he beat up the thief and they've all been pissed at each other since. In order for there to be any peace there-- or anywhere-- someone's got to let go of the past and get on with their lives.

Sorry folks,

RANT OFF:

Tim

Caison
, East coast, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 18:11:59 (ZULU)

FWIW

On 60-Minutes last Sunday, they interviewed one of the soldiers who was in Lynch's group. He had run up the road to steal a truck in order to help the team escape, came across some Iraqi's with a mortar. They were trying to finish off the group. He killed them, saving the lives of the other soldiers, before being captured. Not bad, given his M-16 was jamming every round. Won a medal for it.

Duman
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 19:00:38 (ZULU)

To All:

Tim's post is dead on. We should simply ask these nations to forgo any further foreign aid from the USA, as a matter of principle, since they don't agree with our policies, then cut off every nickel.

I, for one , will not apologize for my opinions (and that's all they are) regarding a vigorous prosecution of the war as it relates to pockets or regions of resistance. I will be damned if I let fear of some media lurker censor my opinions. Anybody on the board who wants to edit this post is welcome to.

I'm tired of seeing our boys and girls die.

I will not see my dear friend who perished on Flt. 93 until I go to the next life, nor will her sister or mother.

There are a lot of wives, husbands, sons, daughters and other relatives and friends who have a long wait to be reunited with their loved ones who have been killed by these butchers.

We didn't start this fight, but I bet we finish it.

Let them fear us if they will not love us, and stop killing our people, and we will leave and help them to rebuild their country, as we have done so many times in the past.

I don't want war, I want peace. But if a rabid dog is coming down the sidewalk toward your daughter, you shoot him. Even if you love dogs.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 19:46:09 (ZULU)

Postwar Japan:

http://www.figureconcord.com/ublog/archives/000808.html

instapundit.com had photocopies of news stories from postwar Germany. German men were killing and mutilating American GIs. The New York Times was having fits.

The more things change...

Young men are not more intelligent than young women. They are not more logical nor are they more competent. But a larger proportion of them are capable of being physically stronger, meaner, crazier and more agressively violent.

Women serve to make men more gentle. Do we want gentler Paratroopers and Marines?

"...In peace there's nothing so becomes a man

As modest stillness and humility:

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,

Then imitate the action of the tiger;

Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,

Disguise fair nature with hard-favored rage;

Then lend the eye a terrible aspect."

Shakespeare

CDC'
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 19:49:51 (ZULU)

Tim, Bruce,

Your dead on! We (the US) should stop paying countries (foreign aid) to bad mouth the US and foster hate against Americans. The middle east is wealthy enough that Saudi Arabia and some others should give aid to those countries, but, that story of the goat, they dont like each other enough to do that. ANother Idea... lets forget the Useless Nitwits (UN) and pull out of that failure. Its become something it was never intended to be when Roosevelt first worked on its creation.

Shooting..... Anyone in the NC area heading to the shoot at Butner this sunday?

Steve S
Airborne Ft. Bragg, NC, usa - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 20:04:21 (ZULU)

This is extremely good:

"As a decorated combat veteran of the Vietnam War, Kerry should know the difference between the kind of major operations he took part in and the pinprick attacks now being made by Baathist remnants and Islamist terrorists. Instead, he would rather try to spark panic and then exploit it for personal gain, actions which should disqualify him from public office."

"President Bush will not be terrorized into retreating, though there is the danger that continuing casualties could be exploited politically by those Democrats who seem to welcome being terrorized."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/hawkins200311131102.asp

Or click my name.

The only way we will lose this is if we just flat-ass chicken-out. Anybody just plain dog dumb enough to think that will buy us peace needs to go hide under the bed and wait.

CDC'
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 20:48:34 (ZULU)

Steve S.... I'm headed down from Northern Va. on Sat. morning....

Hey Ken....I bet that damn stick ain't "left-handed" either, but count me in also.....what the hell, I'll find someone to give it to...muzzle break and all !!!!!! Let the riffle raffle begin....

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 21:03:38 (ZULU)

Bolt-what's the weather forecast (guess) for Sunday. Guess I ought to ask if the Butner match is still on. Been trying to get to one all damn year, finally off duty for one. Woudda helped if one of my wife's damn brood mares hadn't kicked me in the chest about a month ago! (Cartoons are right: you do fly through the air and end up with a hoof print.)

WR Moore
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 21:08:07 (ZULU)

Sitrep:

Snow....High winds....Cold....Power Out.....It's winter in upstate New York....yeeeehaaa!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, N, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 21:49:54 (ZULU)

Foreign aid:

Nothing but Bul***it. Except for disaster relief, I've never understood why we did it in the first place. Tim's right: they hate us regardless, let'em pay thier own bills, I've got my own.

Bruce:

My caution on language here has nothing to do with my ideas on prosecuting the war (we should be going after these hold-out, foreign jihadist, alqeada bast**ds hammer and tongs until they're D-E-A-D), and everything to do with winning the battle here at home for continuing the fight until it's done. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a little brutality on our part, provided it was directed towards the right people. But turning women & children into glass ain't a good idea.

Bill McCormick
82d Airborne, '86-'90, F/2/278 ACR now - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 22:12:24 (ZULU)

wr moore,

Weather for NC (Butner)for sunday will be...0700hrs, partly sunny, 37* F, at 1300 hrs, 60*F chance of rain, winds WSW at 3-6 mph. Info from weather Bug . com. sooooo..... it could close.

Steve S

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 23:43:32 (ZULU)

Bill,

Point taken. But we have done it before, to save American lives. Maybe we should consider doing it again, and let the world gasp at our response, and thereby shorten the conflict. Not by any means advocating nuclear weapons, just a show of force that truly does induce "Shock and Awe."

I understand everybody's aversion to "collateral damage," but Linda Gronlund was "collateral damage" in a field in Pennsylvania, and she was one of thousands.

Until neighbors of terrorists are themselves terrified of having the guy next door hosting bomb-making parties in his apartment, the killing of our troops will continue, I fear.

I truly wish I had "The Answer".........all I have is my opinions and thoughts. They are offered freely.

I'll drop this thread now. I think most of you know how I feel.

God preserve our troops.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 00:08:57 (ZULU)

CDC WROTE: "...In peace there's nothing so becomes a man

As modest stillness and humility:

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,

Then imitate the action of the tiger;

Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,

Disguise fair nature with hard-favored rage;

Then lend the eye a terrible aspect."

Shakespeare

I kinda prefer - "You gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie?"

Josey Wales

OR ...

"Can't stand rude behavior in a man. Won't tolerate it.

Woodrow F. Call

brian k. sain
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 00:31:06 (ZULU)

Gents,

A quick post...

On the Iraqi situation: Why is it most of us could see the current situation coming and the liberal side of the house couldn't? You can bet they'd support the president if he were a democrat. Now they are just using the situation to thier advantage. You can't tell me they didn't see it...

The public got spoiled with Desert Shield/Desert Storm. That was not a victory, IMHO. We just let the bad guys out the back door to regroup.

Based on what we've seen, we should have been a LOT tougher on our entry and occupation of Iraq. Identify and destroy the terrorists, their families, clans, and political groups. FIND the area the terrorists are from, and who supported them, and bomb it FLAT by conventional means. Make those supporting the terrorists so afraid that support will dry up. That means any of the countries that are supporting them in any way, shape, or form.

We are suffering what the Isreali's have for years. Perhaps, the attacks on other peace keeper's will get their countries involved.

Bush is right. We need to commit to this in the long run. I fear mainstream America is being fed false info by the liberal media. Unfortuneately, most Americans don't think farther than "me" and care less about the situation, unless affected.

After twin towers all of America should be behind the effort. That was a slap in the face we cannot and should not ignore.

You think the other side would hesitate to use nukes, if they could get them here? Think they can't? Then where did all these illegals come from?

I have it on good authority that it's already been tried, a while back, and the device was intercepted at the border.

Oops, went into the rant mode there. Bruce, it must be catching...

Pete, if I get an elk I'll fry up the liver and think of you whilest eating it! That 250 gr bullet should do the job...would be good for piggies, too.

Bring on the raffle. Heck, if the long barrel and brake offend you hack it off! Shoot the heck out of it and re-tube in a configuration you like!

All for now. "She who must be obeyed" is calling...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 01:05:33 (ZULU)

BKS: Sometime between "pull" and "whistle" I'd have put a round right through the bridge of Josie Wales' nose.

"If you're going to shoot, then shoot. Don't talk." Tuco the Rat from "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly"

Somebody asked if the "Quick Cuff" had any problems. Just one. The guy who makes them is dog ugly. Other than that they are the way to go for the heavy beasts the guys on this site shoot.

CDC'
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 01:59:13 (ZULU)

Thoughts on Iraq;

We're dealing with a society (the Arab world) who only respects fear. It's all they know. When someone is nice, he is considered a weak fool. In their society, barbarism is good.

The occupation of Germany and Japan was a bit different. Germany is a western civilization. Also, West Germany was afraid of falling to the USSR. Japan was a society where honor is everything. A guerilla war was not the way of the Samurai. They fought a very hard fight but when the emperor surrendered, that was it.

The people we're fooling with have no honor and don't even think logically. Someone with sense would say "The US has the ability to end ALL life on planet Earth!" These folks say "The US is evil but wussies! They'll never do enough harm to us!" We need to make them (the world) fear us.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 04:02:06 (ZULU)

Sinister

It was a real pleasure meeting you SIR! Wish I could have spent more time talking to you! You have alot of good ideas and I think you will do a great job! Drop me a line when you get a chance! Also keep us posted on the Sniper match at Benning!

Gooch, good to hear you are still around! Drop me a line when you get a chance!

Sarge, Glad everything is going well with your daugther!

SFC Pete Carpentier jr TXNG
CC, TX, - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 04:23:58 (ZULU)

CDC',

"The guy who makes them is dog ugly."

Make that 'One of the guys who makes them is dog ugly.' And I know that can't be me. Right Undude? ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 05:00:19 (ZULU)

Guy's, clear this up for me please.......

What is the difference in the Mil Std 1913 rail, and the Picatinny??.

I thought they were basically the same?.........

Will they accept the same style rings/bases?.

Thanks

Two Shoes

Terry
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 05:26:48 (ZULU)

Re: Badlands Fall Match

Thought I'd give a detailed briefing on the recent Match at Badlands last weekend. Took me the better part of a day to clean all the red Oklahoma mud from all my gear ;))))

There were seven events on Saturday and four or five on Sunday. Let me see if I can get this right:

Saturday:

At the classroom;

Briefing on Range Safety and the complete course of fire and scoring procedures. Thereafter it was off outside for the KIMS exercise.......

Kim's Game - 10 items placed on a table and viewed for 2 1/2 minutes. At some during the competition you will be asked to describe all 10 items. - what it appears to be, size, shape, color, usability. Had 2 minutes to write all this down.

At the Range:

Started by re-zeroing rifles and logging dope for the 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000 ranges. (Sidenote: I've heard of but personally do not know of any other ranges in this region that allows a shooter to shoot these distances from one single firing point. Not even even the Whittington Center has this capability. A Major plus for Badlands)

Target Detection: Don't remember the time frame here but you have to locate at least ten items that can be used by a human in the selected viewing area that went out to a distance of 300 yards. Identify what you think it is; shape, size, color and condition. There were a total of 15 items. Very tough and very well hidden.

Unknown distance targets and Range Estimation - A total of ten targets on a range varying from approximately 250 to 900+ yards of various sizes. Must plot a range estimation map and be within (+) or (-) a given distance.

Four UKD Firing Exercises. Shooter has a 1 1/2 min. to "mil" (as in mil-dot) five targets. Many targets partially exposed and some camouflaged. One shot allowed within 30 seconds, 2nd shot (if needed) allowed in 20 seconds and 3rd shot (if needed in ten seconds).

Hold-off exercise-Start at the 200 yard line with the clock ticking and must engage every target with one hit at every range at 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards. Each target at each range has to be hit before proceeding to the next and clock stops at the 600 yard target.

Sunday;

KIMS test. (would've helped if I had known shorthand on this one ;)))

At the Range:

Started off by ranging 5 targets @ UKD. Retain the records for firing at this range for the last event of the day.

Cold Bore Shot. One shot at the 500 yard silhouette. I believe the target was 20" X 20".

Hold Off Exercise. Same as previous Holdoff but targets engaged were: 400, 500, 600, 700 and 800 yds.

Moving Targets: Range of 300 yards shooting at a target of roughly 6" x 6" held on a long pole and held in the middle of a window frame for 5 seconds for each shot. Five shots on this stage.

Positional Shooting. 5 rounds fired at a distance (approx) of 350 yards. One minute allowed for the five shots starting with (1)standing, (2)kneeling and then (2)sitting.

Back to the first range where we had ranged (or "mil"ed) the UKD targets earlier...and fired for score.

After each event, there was an after action review to explain further what we had done and the conditons we were shooting... in case anybody had missed something and any questions answered pertaining to that stage. This turned out to be a Match and a class. That was very helpful.

Conclusion:

This was a great event and opportunity for yours truly to put into effect some of the things that we had covered in our Basic class @ Badlands last Sept. In my case, although I performed like I had my head up my a**, all my goals were achieved in locating my weak points (which were many), reaffirm what I had already learned, analyze my equip. and basically critique myself in all areas. For that it was a great success and kudos to Bobby, Steve and Chuck for putting on a superb and challenging Match.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 06:03:24 (ZULU)

Bruce R.

Incoming...

Mr. Moore,

Did you send an email about a Bergen?

Marc Palmer
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 07:40:30 (ZULU)

MarcPalmer, is everything ok your end buddy, both Jon b and I where wondering if all was ok? can i send you your L9 bits?

Wes, get me an elk ok.

Much wisdom writen over the last few hours on this site, so why the hell ain't the members of this board running the show and get these panzified PC politicians out of the way.

Iraq will become another Northern Ireland, just bigger. Pull all foriegn aid from countries who don't support us, ascrew this PC shit.

The soldier who killed the mortarcrew with the jamming M16 in an atempt to steal a truck, why isn't he bieng made into the nations hero? because it aint PC to kill people, a hero today is some one who saves lives ( but not by taking others) or suffers hardship. Lynch should grab all the benefits she can from the media attention, because, going on personal experience, she can expect little support from the veterans agency when she leaves the service. same goes for the others who where with her,if they all write books and make some dough then good on em, the one thing they should remember though is honour to thier "brothers in arms" don't let your mates down, either before during or after.

Bill,i emailed you of this site with my new email addy at home,

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 08:19:56 (ZULU)

Pete/Jon,

Thanks! Bit of a mix-up, German Catch-22, Surgery was delayed after the sedative was given!!!!!!! Now scheduled for next Wednesday, should have all bases covered this time.

Yes, by all means send the little blyters.

Brownells order must go by Tuesday, get me order numbers.

Also must go to U.S. in Dec for a couple of days, anything light weight needed? Heavy weight would require mailing if thats ok.

You can reach me on my handy.

Marc Palmer
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 11:29:45 (ZULU)

Just to add a bit to what Mark wrote about the Badlands match:

No laser rangefinders were used in this match - all target estimation was done using mildots. The tolerance on the range estimation exercise was plus or minus 5 percent. That's pretty tight. On the unknown distance exercises, a target was designated, then all shooters were given 2 minutes 30 seconds to range the target, set their scope, and load their rifle. Then they had to lower their eyes - no more ranging - and we shot at the targets one at a time in rotation determined by the range officer. And not all those target were easy even to see, especially in the rain and fog - some were camouflaged.

The positional shooting stage was shot at a half-silhouette target of 20X20 inches about 360 yards away. Sounds easy. Wasn't. I missed all five shots.

In anticipation of a holdoff stage, I made a card with the mildot holdoffs for my load out to a thousand yards, with one column assuming a 300 yard zero, and another assuming a 600 yard zero. Worked great, as long as I remembered to hold in the correct direction...

Bobby and staff put on a great match, and you'll come away knowing that you've been challenged. It was great to put faces with some of the names I've seen online. There was some really outstanding shooting done at that match, though little of it was mine.It was great fun, and I came away with a long list of things to practice.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 13:33:30 (ZULU)

Lisa ran across a news item. A Russian Orthodox priest recently married a gay couple. The church responded with a pretty clear statement of policy about the subject of gay marriage: the priest was defrocked, his church was bulldozed and then the rubble was burned. As one commentator noted, "There's a REASON they call it the Russian ORTHODOX church". Yeah...

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 13:50:41 (ZULU)

Lindy,

It was good to have met you sir.

Congratulations to Wade Stuterville who turned in an outstanding performance with a score of 952 at the Badlands FALL Match. I also noticed that his score of 98/100 on the KIMS test was (in my opinion) incredible. His Dad and brother were also competing as well.

The experience for me was invaluable as some of the things that I had learned in the Basic class didn't click until this Match.

It was challenging and got to meet a great bunch of shooters. <<The catfish at the Seniors Center was pretty good too>>

Good time all the way around.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 14:38:17 (ZULU)

Quick question,

Does anyone know the correct wear of the German SCHUTZENSCHNUR?

I need it for my class A's and can't get usapa downloaded on my home computer. Sad part is I qualified gold in February and after the deployment just now received it and need the "proper" attachment.

Can't get the Mildot Master dialed in and the local command is at a loss with a new COC.

Thanks All,

Adam

Adam G. Scott
Netherlands - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 14:48:31 (ZULU)

Two Shoes, the former is a more narrow rail than the picatinny, I believe.

Robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 15:11:58 (ZULU)

I'm not an 'operator' nor wannabe, but Michael posted:

>>>I have been reading this site and shooting with quite a number of the regular posters for over the past four years, but I don't ever recall reading a post from Chandler. I am not knocking the guy or his products, as I understand that they are both top notch, but aren't raffles about funding worthwhile causes and recognizing regular contributors?<<<

I'm ALL for the riffle raffle, but Michael has a point.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 15:13:14 (ZULU)

Pete,

Email back atcha mate.

Marc,

Affirmative- looking for S2 on Brit Bergans.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill Moore
Rnke, VA, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 15:46:11 (ZULU)

Two Shoes - "Mil Std 1913 rail, and the Picatinny?"

Try the info here and see if it helps:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/picatinny/

You can click on my name instead of copy and paste if you like and get there quicker.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 16:39:28 (ZULU)

Okay - I think this needs to be taken care of pretty quick..

1. I sense an underlying tone of resentment of among several of ya.... take it up with me off line.

2. Site supporters - not all these folks that you deal with are posters. Either they are working and/or simply choose not to hang out here. Does that mean they are not supporters of the community? Not hardly.

3. Let's see - names commonly known in the community: Winchester,

Remington, Leupold, Storm Mountain, Kent Gooch, Rod Ryan, Norm Chandler Sr/Jr, Black Hills ammo, George Gardner, Mike Miller.... and the list goes on. Now of these some have posted, some used to and dont any more, some were quite active and have faded to an occasional visit. Does this make them non supporters - NO! it does not. These guys all work for a living. The ones that do post regulary - thanks for taking the extra time. We'll understand if your duties take precedence to posting in a public forum....

4. What does the proposed raffle support. The first priority of the raffle $$ always pays the gunbuilder, plus pay for the transfer to the recipient's ffl holder (reasonable fee that is). It also pays my web developer for putting the raffle site together (usually 200 to 300 dollars). And the last of course goes to the named campaign (ie navy relief, etc).

5. The particular raffle being proposed - has both a Gardner Rock Rifle - known as SCLE #2 - this should be highly collectable, and the Chandler Super Sniper rifle. The ticket pool will be set at 500, the $$ for this go straight to the SniperCountry staff - to be used for matches, etc - whatever SCOTT, SARGE, MARIUS, AND PETE deem appropriate.

6. Most of you that know me - know that I work for Chandler part time. Does that blind side me with regard to the contributions to this site? No. I enjoy the work and love the education that I am getting. Those of you that know me also know that I am fair.

You should also know that I would never intentionally mistreat anyone out there. Now in the case of Mike Miller -he needs constant mistreatment to keep him in line :)

Do I get any $$ for the sale of that Chandler rifle - or the Gardner rifle to the raffle effort? No. I don't want any either - that would poision me as the raffle operator.

I know that a person could argue - "Well you work for Chandler" or "This is about the 4th or 5th Gardner rifle you have raffled, surely George is giving you some kick back for that" Well - guess what - there isnt any kickback and there cant ever be any.... the reasons are obvious.

They are both outstanding Sniper weapons systems and I am proud to sponsor their entry into the raffles.

7. Speaking of raffles and operators - anyone out there can do a raffle - all you need is concurrence from the SC staff: PETE, SCOTT, SARGE, MARIUS.

8. Last but not least - the way I do business, conduct myself, etc is the way that I think is best - derived from what my peanut powered brain can derive from those wiser than I and the good Lord himself.

If you think I am wrong - then convince me that I am wrong and we will go from there.... that's about as fair as I can get.

As always - prayers for the troops and our Great nation

Take care all

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 16:42:44 (ZULU)

Ken,

Email inbound to you via SC's link

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 17:31:19 (ZULU)

Folks,

There are a lot of folks that don't post here, but support the site and the sniper community.

Probably half of the contributors to "Goodies for the Grunts" are lurkers.

The President of a major ammo company (won't name him, but I bet a few of you know him) went in with me to provide 4000 rounds of 9mm to a NG training program that had run out a third of the way through the year. He doesn't post, either.

George builds one helluva rifle. So do the Chandlers (got #217).

And Ken is a man that I am proud to call a friend. I would trust him with my wallet and my wife. I can say the same about Undude, and a very few others.

Ken will conduct this raffle as he has conducted every previous one, with no bias and no personal gain, and honorably, as he conducts his life.

Those of you who know me know that I have one priceless possession....my name. And I am happy to put it on the line to state that Ken is the best guy you could ask for to do a raffle.

So let's put this to bed, and get the raffle going.

And if I win it, blame Sandy's 5 year-old daughter, who will draw the ticket!

And to Jim in AL:

Thanks for the check! But you WILL get another Thank You card from the Child Bride.........her Momma raised her right, and she ain't gonna scrimp on a 37-cent stamp!

Good News!

Army paid me. Voucher noted that the payment of 13 Nov., on an invoice dated 10 July with terms of 30 days net, was "Days Late: 0"

The math skills exhibited in that voucher are apparently why they buy the Mildot Master.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 17:51:52 (ZULU)

Bill, the point of my last post vis a vis the local (arab) press was I made no point...the subtelty of the remarks is telling--at least to folks such as yourself--and THAT was the whole point of pointing it out...errr, sumptin like that....

Any noise from Washington or in our press on "pulling out" emboldens those who actually expected that from us. Screw the rest of the debate---we shoulda learned this BS already---but nobody is holding any one accountable on this. The BGs can now take heart, screw on their resolve, and our Troops continue to die. Convince enough that we are serious; and the "faint of hearts" will stop supporting the hard-corps terrs--and we can get on with making something out of this shithole. As long as we give them reason to fight--fight they will. All they need to do is send us home to win by default. The Ba'athists have all the damn firepower---and roarin' back they will come. Then what? Think we'd get a third chance at this thing? And I'd bet a months pay that someone in this region knows where the WMDs are; you know, the WMDs that didn't exist while Kurds and Iranians died from their non-existant effects???? Duh-farkin-harrrrr.

I also believe that the US is overdue for another round with the elephant---and an important date in our history looms. It would be a colossal mistake to hit the homeland now or in the near term; although the deep held belief of these knuckle heads is that we will cave with "our glass jaw in fragments." Ironically, the opposite would be true. If they do pull one off, the will of the US will bring many of the "we oughtas" to pass. Equally ironically---the more effectively this administration deals with the threat, the more public opinion drifts away. Can't prove the proverbial negative. BTW--this is just a feeling Joe has---not intel. I only know what I need to know regarding my ass (local stuff)! Conjecture on homeland threats is just me gauging the threat against open source study. Disclaimer for the lurking survivalists: I ain't no better informed than you are! Correction, I am--tis why I never bothered building a bunker....

Rant rant rant done.

Now, someone asked a smoke-pole question and we ignored him. Someone answer the guy so I can learn sumptin' too!

In-Sain: How's the book coming? I'm adding it to my shelf once you get it on the market. In fact, once you wrap it up, oughta let us know who you are soliciting for publishing. Then we can all bombard them with pre-orders! May sway the corporate decision....eh? Hell, I'd order 20 copies---and toss them around for presents. My friends don't do sweaters, fruitcakes or neck ties...heheh.

You all know my morale is soaring; youze hear me bitchin' bout stuff. Funny, it used to be tactics, now it's strategy. I must be old.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 18:31:47 (ZULU)

Joe: Company-grade officers study tactics. Field-grades study strategy. Flag-grade officers study logistics - and you're already in that business, so you're thinking like a general! It'd be nice if they'd promote you - some common sense at that level might well go a long way.

The terrorists underestimate America. Another terrorist strike would likely get the whole country into a "Kill them all - let Allah sort 'em out" mood. But, if they were smart, they be in a different line of work.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 18:53:32 (ZULU)

Mule,

Get the Loopy LR M3 3.5-10X. That scope kicks ass. I got one with my GA Precision SC rifle and just love it. I feel like this is just the perfect package here. An M40A1 clone with that scope will do alot. It's my first custom rifle and I don't have any experience with the other McMillan stocks but I think I can do it all with this one. It might not be the perfect F-class rig but I don't care. I hunt pigs, ground squirrels, jackrabbits and coyotes with it. Lately I've been shooting it in the 200 yard metallic silhouette match at a local club (that game is fun). I have to let go of it for a little while to get the mildots from Premier Reticle and then I'll try the 1K match at Sacramento. You won't go wrong with that scope. No matter how many other ones you get later you'll always like this one.

Marc

Marc
CV , CA, - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 19:59:20 (ZULU)

JOE M:

Hey bud, I got too many irons in the fire. Writing full time for Police Marksman, American Sniper Assoc. projects, SWAT, case load (domestic violence), kids, wife, ex-wife, remodeling the house ... hell you know how it is. Not complaining, just damn busy.

I didn't get a book deal or anything like that. I decided to research/write it on my own dime and in my own sweet time and then see who wants to print it the most.

All the calls, interviews, travel, etc. are coming outta my pocket ... right there with the house note, child support and braces. lol

Pretty cocky of me I guess but ... wtf.

Stay safe Sir,

brian k. sain
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 21:02:56 (ZULU)

Ken

Some people accuse or insinuate wrong doing because it is within thier nature to do or they consider doing the things they beleive other people will do or are doing.

Used to work for a LE "COP" (Chief of Police) that did the same thing to us (patrol officers).

Say "nay" to the doom sayers and continue forward walking the walk and fighting the good fight.(cliche abound.

You have plenty of support here

Semper Fi

Bomac

bomac
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 21:54:02 (ZULU)

Third post; mostly lurk.

Ken,

Thank you for running the raffle. I will be happy to participate.

To everyone else,

There isn't a week goes by that I don't see, "Riffle Raffle." posted on this forum. Yet, when Ken steps up and runs a raffle, there's a bunch of flack thrown his way for the manner in which he conducts it. You know what they say about opinions. If you don't like the raffle, don't participate. Give people like me a better shot at not winning. I never win anything:)!

Smelly Dog Pat in rainy South City

Blackdog
S. San Franc isco, CA, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 21:55:28 (ZULU)

Scott Kangas,

On muzzleloaders, first need to find out if you must stay with a traditional sidelock, or can use the modern in-line where you are at. If you can use the in-line, I have experience with Thompson/Center, either the Black Diamond XR, or the Omega would fit what you need just fine I think. I would stay with 50 cal. I have a T/C Thunderhawk (not made anymore) it will shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with open sights. Either of the two above will do the same or better. If you can use a scope, I have heard that these will shoot sub moa. I have heard that the Knight rifles will do as well too but I have no personal experience with them. If you must use a traditional style, go with either the Thompson/Center Hawken, or the Lyman Great Plains Rifle again in 50 cal. The custom barreled T/C Hawken that I used for competition shot 1 to 1-1/4 inch groups with patched round ball and open sights, that is if I did my part. The factory rifles won't shoot quite that well but should easily shoot around 1-1/2 to 2 inches at 100. If I can help in any other way post a question or hit me off-line.

Ken Hunter,

Run the raffle the way you want to, there is no question here about your fair, unbiased participation.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 22:08:35 (ZULU)

Aw hell, Ken we all trust your judgement. Get it on. Jus a little wonderment from trooper Mike as to why, not knowin your gonna have 2 rifles. holy hell, what are we wait for? I'm an old man and times a wastin. Anybody with doubts.. know that a Chandler is a hell of a sniper rifle. My Laud, I'd love to have either one of those beauties. Don't give me a choice cause I'd have hell makin it.

Brogers
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 22:14:28 (ZULU)

Rob Opp -

Many thanks for the guidance and suggestions. Inline is legal here. For me, the preferred way to go. They just vary from $150 up to more than I want to spend so I was lost in the quagmire.

Brian (In)Sane -

Bought the book you recommended a month or 2 ago. Good read but I'm not doing that type of activity. Donated to the local PD SWAT commander. He is making his guys read it.

Stay well all!

Scott Kangas
Davenport, Iowa, USofA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 22:40:19 (ZULU)

First off Ken Hunter is a great and honest guy. Anyone to say otherwise gets my boot so far up their small hole it will be pushing teeth out the pie hole from the rear.

My comments where mostly in fun. I prefer to see Georges rifle on here or anywhere else, to Chandlers any day. Norm Sr. is a great man, but has not been apart of SC. George is a great man and a friend oF SC

With all that said I will support any raffle Ken puts on, but hope to win a GA Precision rifle.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
ca, - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 23:09:56 (ZULU)

I'm ready to donate my normal cash for 4 ticks. Bring the riffle raffle on. When I win the Chandler, I'll just hacksaw that brake off and shoot a short stick. Getting like YoteBait, too old to wait for stuff, let's do it and get it over with.

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 00:48:23 (ZULU)

All:

Thanks to the generous contributions from Jim in NM and Barry in AZ, fund now stands at $111.82. A few more checks and we hit Wally World, to pad out the box of Cope and Skoal already purchased.

Child Bride is already playing the Christmas CD by Alabama in the next room. Just serves to remind me how blessed I am.

From the bottom of my heart, thank you for what you are doing for our men and women who will not be with their loved ones this Christmas.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 01:14:42 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter:

You do the raffle any way you see fit. I'm convinced that it will be an honest shake any way it's done. I don't see anyone getting rich off of the raffle proceeds. This site and the information that it represents are worth an occasional "donation" from me. It's getting about time I won me a new rifle, though!

I'm in for x tickets, where x >1!

Mike

BMG Mike
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:22:38 (ZULU)

Thanks for the support notes gents.

Okay - here's the first announcement for the Raffle.

THE SNIPERCOUNTRY 500 - IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER. WHAT'S THAT? ITS A RAFFLE LIKE ALL THE REST THAT WE'VE RUN.

WHY'S IT CALL THE SNIPERCOUNTRY 500? WELL HERE'S HOW IT WILL WORK

1. TICKET COUNT IS SET AT 500. WHEN WE HIT 500 TICKETS SOLD -THE DOOR CLOSES. WE LIMIT THE TICKET POOL SIZE SO THAT ALL HAVE A REASONABLE CHANCE AT THESE RIFLES. WINNER PICKS THE RIFLE THEY WANT. THE RUNNER UP GETS THE REMAINING RIFLE.

2. NOW - WHAT'S UP FOR GRABS? NOT ONE - BUT TWO! RIFLES. THAT'S RIGHT. WE HAVE THE G.A. PRECISION ROCK RIFLE, SNIPER COUNTRY LIMITED EDITION SERIAL NUMBER 2.... VERY COLLECTABLE. ALSO - WE HAVE THE CHANDLER SUPER GRADE SNIPER RIFLE.

3. THE PLAN IS TO TURN THIS RAFFLE ON NEXT WEEKEND. I HAVE TO GET THE PICTURES OF THE RIFFLES FROM BOTH CHANDLER AND GARDNER. SO THEY CAN BE EMBEDDED INTO THE RAFFLE SITE.

4. WHO'S IT HELPING? THE FUNDS THAT ARE GENERATED BY THIS RAFFLE OF COURSE PAY FOR THE RIFLES. THE REMAINING FUNDS - GO TO THE OPERATION OF SNIPERCOUNTRY. SARGE, PETE, SCOTT, MARIUS WILL DECIDE HOW TO USE THESE FUNDS (MATCHES, PRIZES, ETC).

5. THE PHASES OF THE RAFFLE WILL RUN AS DONE BEFORE

A. register for tickets. ticket numbers issued at registration time. registration stops when we hit 500.

B. Once registration is closed - we call for payments. that means get those payments in.

C. once all payments are in - we have the drawing.

D. I get to have the best fun - I get to call the winners and tell them that they won...

I will post more as we get near.

Dont panic - just check the roster at least once per day.... I willl maek sure you see my announcement...

thats all for now....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:34:24 (ZULU)

Since there were only 2 posts concerning the 'lack of presence' by the Chandlers and the last one was mine, either I misstated it or it was mistaken.

If I have in any way represented that I mis-trusted Ken Hunter, then I BEG his forgiveness!

In the 4 or 5 years I have lurked and ocassionally posted, I have never doubted Ken and I am usually one of the many hollerin' fer a riffle-raffle. I always contribute, not much, but I do. I was/am under the impression that the raffles are held to support the site and operators of the site. Naturally, I assumed the raffle items were bought from those who also support the 'site,' not just the craft.

I know nothing about the Chandlers except that I don't have one of their riffles and would love to win one. I have an SCLE and have NO objections about having two.

Again, if I have insulted or insinuated wrong doing by ANYBODY on this site or connected to/with this site, I deeply appologize. Bring on the Riffle Raffle!

Larry J. Porter

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:37:38 (ZULU)

Ken, I think that I was chiming in with the same perspective as Larry. I actually didn't know that you work part time for Chandler. Thanks for your post though, you bring up good points and I understand quite a bit better.

I have never questioned your ethics, you have always been a 100% stand up guy that is straight forward, honest and candid. I have always also participated in the raffles, and will continue to do so even though I haven't won yet! I would be delighted to win either one of the rifles, and I appreciate all of your hard work on the site.

Thanks for the additional info, and I am loooking forward to the Raffle!!! (I would like to win this time though!)

Michael
CA, - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 04:13:15 (ZULU)

2 super rifles; woody woody woody! At's OK Larry if you win em both I'll accept your donation!

Brogers
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 04:15:16 (ZULU)

Larry,

I certainly hope that you took no offence at MY post. I just wanted to clear the air about folks who don't post, but certainly support this brotherhood. Also to do a pre-emptive strike against any questions about Ken. I had no problem with questions arising, just wanted to get my two cents in immediately.

No way would I direct anything against you, man.......there's too many folks in the sandbox that got clean heinies, chaw and jerky as a result of your generosity.

And, yes, I have a Chandler. If I win, I will get George's rifle, for variety's sake, as long as I can get it with a 20" barrel. But I need another rifle like I need a second a**hole. Don't have time to shoot the ones I have now.

Pat:

Please hit me off-Roster with the details of our LTC friend. Hadn't heard.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 04:29:38 (ZULU)

Bruce, Dad I have told you many times send them guns to your son in California so they can be loved and shot. LOL

On a serious note you are one of the few men I hold as high as Ken Hunter. Well actually you are easier to hold high because you are smaller.

Think I will buy two tickets and win both rifles. The way Ken keeps beating my ass over the Chandler I guess I would take one. Just please dont ship it with a leather sling. LMAO

Switching gears. Waiting for approval from insurance co to have nerve damage surgery. Seems you guys knew I did not have any feeling but doctor says it can be corrected.. I will be without any use of left arm for two months and then it will be long recovery. I better be nice to other half or my love life is done. On another thought my only shooting for awhile will be BR and my god that is crap.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 05:11:00 (ZULU)

Ken, Sarge and company: Type-A personalities thw world over have a common trait: We bitch about anything and everything---until something happens that really sucks--then we get down to it with serious attitudes. Same thing here; we find out out we're gonna have a riffle raffle and we smile ear to ear. Of course, without conflict to keep us sharp; we conjour some up. Hell, I have soldiers bitching about air conditioning in August over here. Said it was too cold. And a camp of 5000 complained, same month, that they had too much ice. Don't take it wrong when the bitching starts...bitching is how I know all is well. It's the stoney silence that scares me...

Someone is right this minute bitchin' about the French word I just used :))

I made a strong case for a new scooter to the wife (last one got sold for legal fees for custody of the boy---well spent cash)...when she shoots that in the ass, plan B is a custom riffle. I think I got her on the ropes. I like 300 WM, but don't know much about the WSM to rule it in or out.

Bruce: Although I will play the raffle---I sure hope you win first prize. I'll be satisfied as runner up. This is a no-lose raffle either way.

Brian: I read something a while back with your name associated with it. I am going crazy trying to find it again. I was busy at the time, and made a mental note to re-read the article. I lost the mental note. Musta gone with the rest of my mind...

No new boxes yet. I haven't had time to find out what is going on; but mail has slowed since I've returned. What happened? Maybe airflow slowed. The leave program is jamming KCIA (small field). Curiosity takes a back seat to mission, though.

I sure miss Lito and Rick around here! Anyone know what they're doing these days?

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 08:44:56 (ZULU)

Good morning Hawgs, been real busy but I did see Sinister Dave is back. Welcome back sir!

Sarge, sorry to read about your daughter and glad she is on the road to recovery. Will be praying for you and yours.

Mike, same goes for you. I had a thoracotomy back in 1989 and I don't envy anyone who has to deal with doctors and hospitals. Maybe you can practice your one-handed pistol shooting.

I sure should!

:-P

Joe, your intel seems to be on this time....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103157,00.html

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=NU0R1PUOUKNIWCRBAE0CFFA?type=topNews&storyID=3827796

Watch six dude.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 14:12:56 (ZULU)

My post has been up for five minutes and I get the first email from a gentleman in Africa who needs me to recieve his Millions! (shakes head in amazement)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 14:30:03 (ZULU)

Geoff: send me an email so we can re-establish comms. New computer, my old harddrive ate the lot of my data as a last act of spite. I backed up all the important shit--like work, but screwed the pooch with my personal folders. Most all died with the drive. Thank God I burned a CD of my pics!!!!

You can include your bank account info too? Why should the Nigerians have all the fun???? :))))

Last--wondered where you been...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 16:08:39 (ZULU)

"I hope I am wrong in saying this but you sound like one of those guys that shoots better groups at the bar talking to friends than you do at the range. Most of what I read on the sniper co. page is humorous to say the least , I bought a M77 MkII in 300 Win Mag , and with Federal premium 200gr gameking`s cut bullet holes at 100 yds .I`m a hunter not a sniper,but I admit the triggers in factory rifles need work but out to 500 yds with my Ruger or my 111 savage also in 300 win ,what I shoot at hits the ground . I shoot on a reg basis with law enforcement ,military, and those that think they want to be merc. and the common factor is most of the time it`s not the gun its the hands holding it."

I got this e-mail today from a fan. Don't ya, just love the fame and fortune you get by being on here in this killing ground they call Sniper Country Duty Roster. I'll not mention this guys name out of respect for the many others who have e-mailed me with opinion, legitimate argument and for help with something. If there's anything that sounds like Bar Bragging in my posts just have another cold one and go on about your business folks. Come by some time and we can go out to the range for a while if your really interested.

Brogers
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 16:31:53 (ZULU)

JOE M: Ain't no tellin' bud. If you heard it from a woman though ... wasn't there, didn't do it.

SCOTT KANAGAS: Hey man that was probably the best thing you could do. Most chiefs have long since forgotten how to be cops. You might open some eyes by giving the book away. Still don't know why I love what I do so much ...

KEN H: Please send Norm (Jr./Sr.) my regards. They build a fine rifle.

brian k. sain
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 17:11:33 (ZULU)

Joe,

I hope I win first prize, too! But I won't get to keep it if I do......

Child Bride likes my Chandler (generally outshoots me with it), and has informed me that she wouldn't mind having one of her own. But she's leaning towards George's rifle, if he will present it personally. Says he's pretty easy on the eyes.

You got some competition, Brian!

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 17:15:27 (ZULU)

HOG'S,

Greetings and Salutations, it has been a long time since I have been here.

Sarge, glad to hear the good progress news, I have been praying.

Marius, Thank you, and I hope you did well on your exams.

All, I hope everybody is well, and aspiring.

Question: If anybody out there has a "Blue Book of Gun Values", and is willing to answer a few question, I am in the need of a little help. Assistance would be greatly appreciated, and rewarded. Hit me with an email, and then we can coordinate. This is rather urgent on my end.

Ken, on the rifle raffle, count me in, and if you would please, also hit me with an email, as I have an idea that I would like to bounce off you, and you may like it.

The respect and dignity on this site, is second to none, and I for one have no qualms with a handshake deal, or a "my word is my bond" agreement with anyone here. Thank you all.

Out.

Sean
Brandon, Mb., Canada - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 20:27:10 (ZULU)

Hello!, I have a Savage 110FP .308 Cal. that I bought as a base to start building an accurate rifle from. I have had the rifle for a couple of years, just never got around to doing anything to it. I would like to start building now, but I am wondering what things others have encountered in tuning/building this rifle. Thanks, Vic Graham

Vic Graham
Whispering Pines, NC, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 22:10:21 (ZULU)

Has anyone out there ever measured the Headspace Datum Line on a .300WM case using the Redding Comparator? I know the case manufacturing parameter is using the belt. These new Win cases are

minus.015" to minus.018" less than SAAMI minimum headspace specs for the .300WM. So where am I going with this? Are the US Military Sniping Units making special chambers for these cases or using once fired? When I once fire and measure, the cases measure approx. .000" to plus .002". Plus .002' is the longest I can size to for the cases to chamber and extract in my Rem .300WM Sendero under normal presures.

Gary
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 01:35:38 (ZULU)

To those of you that RETAIN the ability to turn the TV channel, radio channel or skip a post or two on this roster, please skip this post.

To those that are reading this...

PLEASE. Shut up and leave Mr Rogers completely alone.

I like the guy, and my judgement is better than yours.

medicjim
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 01:38:53 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Norm Chandler, Jr. here. I have been reading the Duty Roster with interest over the last day or so and I felt I needed to chime in. Even though I am not an active participant on the Sniper Country Duty Roster, I monitor the comments and concerns on a regular basis. I have chosen not to comment in order to stay neutral and to stay out of any issues of opinion or professional disagreements. As many of you know, my dad, Norm Chandler Sr. and Carlos Hathcock were two of the earliest pioneers and champions of legitimate snipers. From Marine Corps sniping tactics and procedures, development of sniping doctrine to implementation of civilian law enforcement sniping methods, the Chandler name and expertise has always been on the forefront of our community. I have grown into this lifestyle and truly wish to support the entire community. In short, the art and science of sniping is our life and it is what we wish to do.

A while back, Ken Hunter asked me if I would consider putting a Chandler rifle up for raffle on Sniper Country. The first thing I asked Ken was where would the money go. He said the funds would go to support Sniper Country operations and my dad and I thought that would be a great opportunity to give some behind-the-scenes support to the sniper community. There was no ulterior motive or effort to cause any strife in the brotherhood, nor was this an effort for us to endorse Sniper Country over any other web sites or other sniper organizations.

Even though we do not play an active part on Sniper Country, I would like to point out an example of another way we have helped the community, specifically Sniper Country. Due to our reputation as experts on sniping, we were in hourly consultation with the press (CNN and MSNBC) during the beltway sniper debacle. We constantly defended the professional sniper community, including Sniper Country, against left-wing media attacks. Without getting into the details, we feel we were very successful in our efforts to fend off these reports biased toward gun control and aimed at further losses to our Second Amendment rights. We constantly strive to improve the quality of our classes and have earned a reputation of producing one of the finest sniping rifles in the world. We hope the Chandler rifle is won by a young marksman full of potential and dedicated to the discipline and responsibility that comes with owning such an instrument. In fact, we are very quiet about any assistance we offer, preferring to keep our actions, our relationships and especially our personal comments at a discreet and professional level. Isn’t that the mark of a true sniper?

Regards,

Norm Chandler Jr.

Iron Brigade Armory

Norm Chandler Jr
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 02:03:28 (ZULU)

Well said, Mr. Chandler! You're welcome here, and thanks from this old Marine for your support! I've fired a Chandler rifle, owned by a friend of mine, and I'd be pleased to win one in the raffle.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 02:52:17 (ZULU)

From someone who doesn't contribute, or for that matter post much:

Anyone wanting to pick on Bill Rogers should instead e-mail me. I'll be more than happy to tell you why you're wrong and save the bandwidth of this board.

Bill, one of these days, we'll both do some bar bragging. Same bar, same time.

Mike, I really hope things go well with that surgery. Mine came back without surgery, but you're correct in your estimate of time. Think years. The real question is, what will you do with feelings? Seems like you've done pretty well without them up until now, and I kind of like you without them.

Why Ken and Bill get on Mike? Because it's fun. I don't suggest it for everyone though.

What Bruce said. He's the man, and if he says it, it's right.

Ken: "I sense an underlying tone of resentment of among several of ya.... take it up with me off line." I'll do it here thanks. Yes, resentment. First off, you forget what my phone number is, or possibly how to dial it, and then when I call that other dude and get a busy signal, I know it's you tying up the line. I cut you slack though, your little girl doesn't sound little at all anymore, so you must be getting old and crotchety. Best wishes to you and yours.

Jaeger
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 03:35:42 (ZULU)

Savage tuning;

There are a few tricks and alterations that can be done in building a 10FP into a nice rifle. Here's a few to look at....

Trigger replacement is paramount (unless it's an AccuTrigger) since this is the most notable problem. There are some available: Rifle Basix, Sharpshooter Supply, Timney to name a few.

The injection molded (Rubbermaid) plastic stock is another place to look at. It can be made to shoot pretty well by bedding. Trimming the mold lines off the outside makes it a little more comfortable. It's just not rigid enough, especially with a bipod. Whatever you get, make sure it's rigid. I wouldn't replace the stock until I done everything else. You may need to get longer or shorter action screws if you change the stock.

You need good scope rings and bases. When I built mine for shooting long range (over 600 yards), I installed a 20moa base. The only one I could get is a Farrell and I went ahead and used Farrell rings too. The Farrell base has to be bedded. The rings are quite nice. I have been pleased with the Farrell set up.

There's not much that really needs to be done to the Savage. The basics that apply to building any other rifle apply to the Savage. There's just not as many goodies available.

Heck, I love mine!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 04:00:51 (ZULU)

Norm; Snipers operate best from the tall grass. Understood by most of us. I figure there's no way to loose on this deal for we who lurk here. IF I win; break it too me slowly Ken. Give me time for the nitro to take affect.

Thanks Jim; you the man as always. Made piece with my temporary antagonist hopefully he understands the true nature of some of my comments and critiques.

Folks who read; please be advised that there are many rifles and scopes and other gear. In very few cases there is nothing to critique. We may be a little rough on certain things or it may appear that way. Most comments here are based on experiences both good and bad. The accuracy of our reports and critique may be arguable but our intentions to guide you to the best equipment and procedures we know how should not be in question. I've always answered every question in a heartfelt manner whether it be agreeable, accurate, or complete fiction is up to you to interpret but there is no intentional deception. I shoot the same mirage and read the same shifting winds that you do. If it sounds like a boast it might be just plain fact, or wishful thinking but it's accurate as I can make it.

Vic; if you caught my post of a few days ago, I shot one of the late Savage rifles 10fp with accutrigger. You may just want to shoot it as is. There just isn't a hell of a lot to do to this rifle. Does yours have the Accutrigger or the intermediate I believe they called it a marksman or something like that. I've shot it too and it works well but isn't as versitile as the accutrigger. Some people change the stock but I'm not seeing anyone improve their accuracy greatly. Other stocks usually the Choate seem to fit more people's idea of a Sniper stock but the factory stock shot one hole groups. We have not tested this rifle beyond 100 yards as of yet. But in a couple of weeks. Lord Willing and the wind don't rise, I will tell you what it does at 500 to 1k yards. I have not tried one of the McMillian stocks but it looks fine and it's quite pricey. Savage is coming on strong. Real Strong.

Gary; the belted magnum is one of those cartridges that really does need to be once fired. (that's just my opinion) One of the advantages of the .300 Win mag is that it does not have to be chambered to accomidate round nose bullets or at least I've never encountered a 300 that is overly long. My .308 is almost free bore with a factory barrel. I don't know why it shoots as good as it does but it does quite a bit better with once fired and long seated bullets. One of the easiest things and I suspect often overlooked advantages of "custom" rifles is the fact that they are chambered to proper specifications. This has about as much to do with their improved performance as the expensive rifling they use. IF you were to cut your factory .308 off and rechamber it.... You would be amazed at the improvement. Lawyers and round nose bullets have screwed up the .308 factory barrels in a lot of guns.

Which brings us to the .300 WSM or .308 fatboy. Here we get the best of both worlds. Like Goldilocks' soup. Not to long and not too short. Not to hot and not too cold. Not a 30-06 but not a .300 belted powder hog either. Just some observations. I'm not advocating the .300 WSM or .300 SAUM yet to replace the other two but it's very suspicious that this thing is gonna work. I might say that there are some who think the fatboys are just a gimmick. Some of em may be. I don't get the .243WSM except it falls in there. The .223 fatboy is a wonderment. Sorry guys. Long post. standing by.

Brogers
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 04:01:39 (ZULU)

Sheesh, I'm gone for 2 days and some of you didn't want to play nice! OK MY 2 cents - and since I'm one of the "owners" of this site my 2 cents REALLY COUNTS!! Guys you have NO idea the things the Chandlers have done behind the scenes for SC!! They had wanted it that way so they had gotten it!! Those that were at SQ 03 - how many of you were drooling over the TWO autographed books from the Chandlers?? Other conversations I've had with Norm, though not many have ALWAYS been as professional as you could ask for!

Norm, thank you again SIR for posting!

NOW HOGS quitcha bitchin and get your wallets out we got TWO...HELLO THAT's TWO 2,2,2, rifles to raffle!!

Teaser time....guess what guys, he says with a VERY large Sh..eating grin on his face, there is going to be ANOTHER RAFFLE before Christmas....heck unless the rest of the Council members have read their e-mails in the last 1/2 hour THEY don't even know about this one yet!! NO FOLKS it's NOT another rifle, but YOU VILL LIKE IT!! Still have a few minor things to square away and then we'll tell you what it is!!! :-)

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 04:19:39 (ZULU)

Norm Chandler Jr.,

Just one word for you... Bravo!

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 05:02:06 (ZULU)

I think there were a lot of people here who didn't actually know the extent of Norm Chandler's involvement on this site. I think it was just an expression of Loyalty for GA Precision and George who has helped us so much and been here for advice when we needed it, not to mention the SC commemeratives, holy smoke. This is one of the endearing attributes of this little hole in the Internet. IT's stocked with a great number or loyal good ole boys that look after their own. Anyhow most of us would be honored to have the butt plate off either of these rifles.

Jeag! long time no hear. How's the hunting in the black forest these days? Super good to hear you speaketh!

Brogers
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 05:29:35 (ZULU)

re: accurizing Savage 110.

The biggies are - stock, barrel and trigger.

(Assume that scope mounts and optics have been sorted out).

I stayed with the factory synthetic stock.

Had the stock pillar bedded to the action.

My riflesmith uses a bedding pad around the chamber part of the barrelled action, opinions vary. This is an easy way to ensure free-floating of the barrel.

There were some issues with action screw engagement depth

thru stock that I had to get resolved.

Others will say that replacing the factory stock is a better approach.

I wasn't impressed with the interior finish of the factory barrel,

had it replaced with a Mike Rock 5R rifling barrel chambered to "match" specs.

My riflesmith eliminated the Savage barrel jam nut and used "normal" threading/headspace setup for the replacement barrel.

Some are satisfied with the factory barrel accuracy level, but the

factory barrels will be hard to keep from fouling with copper.

I don't know if my riflesmith had to take any steps to true up the action or bolt to the centerline of the bore.

The earlier generation Savage triggers can be adjusted to a certain point, but you'll probably want an aftermarket unit to get a good weight *and* have an overtravel adjustment. I chose the Sharpshooter's Supply unit, and I have been very satisfied. I'm intentionally running a 1.5Kg trigger weight which is at the heavy end of the adjustment range.

My Savage 110 in .308W is now apparently capable of more accuracy then I can consistently deliver, which is perfect.

(probably around 0.5 MOA at 100 yds). It means any accuracy issues are the operator, not the equipment.

That means I have no excuses :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 06:36:50 (ZULU)

Vic,as you can see, mileage varies, my savage shot ok with the factory stock off bags etc but way to soft for a bipod,its 112 varmint 223,heavy barrel, soft stock,bad.I worked on the trigger as best I could, its heavier than I d like but I learned to use it.I put a choate stock on it and its heavy! definately not a mountain rifle but its more accurate than me and the barrel cleans up very easy,seems to collect very little copper.Ive got about 3.5k rounds through it and very happy.

all the best to the rest of you guys.

prayers for the santa Major and all the folks in the sandbox.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis
bananna, republic, of OZ - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 10:31:20 (ZULU)

Here's to the Denver SWAT team that rescued 2 hostages and left the perp without benefit of public trial and court appointed attorneys. May have to fix an apartment or two but what the heck. Nice work guys!

Vic; I've heard of rough barrels in the Savages but not experienced it. I shot a .223 over 10K rounds and it was slick as glass. It's still shooting for it's new owner, who insists it don't need a new barrel I'd lap a barrel if it was rough enough to notice it. I think it's curious that some smiths take the barrel nut off. Maybe it's easier with other custom barrels or something. It seems that is the endearing quality of the Savage's but It does look a little cheesey I guess. I know a fella who had a smith make him a "change barrel" from 22-250 to 22-250 Ackley Improved and I believe he had a .243 barrel. This rifle is pretty versatile with modification. There was an article in Shotgun News about the Savage Scout and modifications. The one I had (Scout) shot .5MOA out of the Box with a Leupold long eye relief 2X on it. The stock was side warped badly and touched the barrel all along the last 6" on one side. No pressure much but it touched. Go Figure. That stock is so flimsy it just don't fool with the groups I guess. That rifle would outshoot the Remington .308 VSSF I normally shoot.

Brogers
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 15:10:16 (ZULU)

Guys, Thankyou for all the comments. I think this one has the Accu-trigger and yes the (tuperware) stock is way too soft. I will update as I build.

Vic Graham

Vic Graham
Whispering Pines, NC, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 15:12:13 (ZULU)

Norm Jr.

Thank you for your support and additional clarification. I remember hearing your supporting comments to the media during the east coast shootings and they did seem to be very helpful. You and your father's contributions to the profession are substantial and beyond reproach.

I think that the comments on the Roster were about the raffle only and got a little blown out and took on a life of their own. There was no disrespect intended or meant. Ken's post the next day provided additional details, after all it is pretty tough to bitch about a raffle! Thank you again.

I would be delighted to win either one the rifles, I have a pretty big collection of GA rifles already and a Chandler would be a nice addition!

Michael
CA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 17:10:37 (ZULU)

Vic, if you plan on doing any work on the Savage check out Sharp Shooter Supply. They have everything you'll need to work on that Savage. They don't have a website but here is a link to thier catalog on the web http://imageevent.com/richinva/sharpshootersupply Just click on my name for a direct link.

I was looking for a cheap .223 and now I'm getting a Savage 12BVSS for Christmas. I didn't like the cheap plastic stock so I got the laminate stock for only $60 more. I figured it would be better and wouldn't need replacing unless I wanted too. It's not too "tactical" but it's not supposed to be as it will be a fun practice rifle. I like the idea of the barrel nut switch system. I plan on getting a few different barrels down the road from SSS. They have the bolt heads too. $239 for a new barrel and $20 for the bolt head and I can have a .260 or 300WSM. They have new stocks for around $200 also if I wanted something synthetic.

I'm actually a die hard Remington man but when money is tight you go with what you can afford. I wanted a rifle with at least a 1 in 9" twist and the LTR was out of my price range as the 700VS has a 1 in 12" twist. So the Savage won out. I figure alot of people like them and I should go to the dark side and see what the fuss was all about ;) Like I said it's going to be a cheap .223 and with the scope, Bushnell 10x40 mildot-$154, the mount, Ken Farrell 20MOA-$53, the rings, DSA tactiacls-$52, the whole rifle will cost me about $800. We'll see if you get what you pay for or if it will work out.

Rob01
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 17:47:55 (ZULU)

Next generation in personal-level field water treatment gear.

MSR Miox® Water Purifier

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=34333177&prmenbr=226

(You can click on my name for the URL too).

Handy that it uses same 123-series lithium batteries as Surefire flashlights

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 18:11:58 (ZULU)

First off this thing over the raffle has been blown way out of proportion.

I think talking further only turns it into something its not.

Norm after all the comments made in the past about "Boat Paddles" and other insults of others gear, by the Chandlers, I would think you would have a sense of humor by now? My comments where mostly in fun. Either understand that or dont.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 18:20:55 (ZULU)

Mr. Chandler,

Thank you for posting, I read your post with the attention I usually reserve for Sinister, or Rick Bowcher. You should do it more often!

Have you considered a re-print of the D.F.A. series? If so where/when are they available?

On the first ML post, I suggest the T/C Encore. Mine shoots better than my old T/C Hawken (which says a lot), is easy to clean, and if you decide smokepoles aren't for you. You can just switch barrels!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 18:51:08 (ZULU)

Mike, "Either understand that or dont." Now if that isn't a 100% covered position. At least there isn't much in the way of possible misunderstanding. Maybe there is. I could become a book writer, and publish lots of information that I think I know, but really don't. Then I'd be like a bunch of the authors I've read, and magazines I got fed up with.

Bill, hunting here is just great. Without exageration. Sometimes I even amaze myself, until I realize that most is just strategically placed dumb luck due to the fact that a bullet has to go somewhere, and broken clocks are right at least twice a day.

And my question of the day: the wisdom of the group has what answer as to a good place to purchase 223 brass, preferably primed? My requirements aren't Lapua grade, but more of surplus, but with functioning primers. TIA

Jaeger
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 18:57:17 (ZULU)

Vic,

I own two savages now, a 112FV in .223 and the 10FPLE2 in 308. You made a good choice. Like many have Posted earlier, the stock forend can be soft. I know one guy that did a little work to stiffen it up by drilling and inserting a metal rod from the forend tip toward the main body. Too much work for me. I checked around for a new stock and found that Boyd'd stocks of SD has a great selection of wood laminated stocks, the Warner Varminter is a good solid stock. Presently they only make it with a standard channel cut (for the savage 10. I used a 1 inch diameter and a 3/4 dia. dowel, sanding paper and dremel to widen the channel. Now i can slip a dollar bill in there and the barrel is floated. The slot for the recoil lug is a little larger then it needed to be. A little apoxy tighted that right up. You can special order the stock and have them widen the channel before shipping. The cost of the stock, unfinished (no varnish), with recoil pad was $96.00 (includes shipping to my residence). I have a family, growing teenager and budget has to come into the picture (till I win the raffle). www.boydboys.com Check it out and see what you think. I put my Howa 1500 into one of their stocks and it has been working great! I shoot 600 and 1000yd with it now. If you have any questions, youcan call them and they will gladly talk with you about any concerns.

Steve S

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 19:05:43 (ZULU)

My comments were not meant as an insult. I just think someone as outspoken as the Chandlers should have thicker skins. How many times does this have to be said. MY COMMENTS WHERE IN FUN.

Once again we are making far more out of nothing than needs to be.

Christ most of us cap on each other all the time and no offense taken.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
ca, - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 20:12:52 (ZULU)

Mike,

Perhaps I didn't understand the humour, but sometimes you is a bit dry, hahah....I don't think Norm took much offense, and maybe you is the hypersensetive critic of your own stuff...

Norm Jr,

Bout time you paid attention, good to see you on board, for the moment at least.....

Hey mates, get to come home to the big ole US of A next week... 5 days and counting, woo hoo!!! My itinerary is all ready worked out, talked with the 5 year old neice today, it's Elf and Cat in the Hat, and something about ponies.......all good..

Cheers for now

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 22:57:44 (ZULU)

MIOX;

The MIOX (mixed oxidant) system is a pretty cool way of treating water. It can be done on municipal scale all the way down to an individual. The MIOX pens are about the size of a small flashlight.

MIOX uses electricity to oxidize impurities. Basically, at least in the large system, it takes a salt-water solution and electrically breaks down the salt (sodium chloride) into it's seperate elements. One of which is chlorine. Chlorine is the most popular disinfectant in water treatment. The salt and impurities are then filtered out, leaving safe drinking water.

Jaeger,

I think I remember seeing primed Remington brass at Graf's website. Could be wrong.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 00:49:11 (ZULU)

George and Marty left Benning this evening. Saw Gooch, Mike H from 1st SF Group, Mark Westrom from Armalite, Shaun from Trijicon/ACOG, and Chris Thomas from Premier.

I'm not sure but I think Chris H from 19th SF Group (National Guard) and his partner from Texas came in first, but I wouldn't swear on it.

Paul, the Brit team had L96s and green SA80s. I don't know how the contestants finished, and the Benning Range Control computer allowed hunters in the downrange impact area so there wasn't any live-fire for the vendors' day. The British Territorial Army Team took 1st in the Armed Forces Small Arms Meeting at Little Rock last month with SA-80s, so despite their mechnical shortcomings apparently the scope is no disadvantage. The Brits brought their own 5.56 as they claimed US ammo fouls the gas system (thus knocking down the argument that US 5.56 NATO will be fully interchangeable across our allies' weapons).

Mike Rock was showing a very interesting carbon-fiber wrapped 5R cut barrel that shed 2 pounds off an AR-10 front end. George believes the carbon fiber wrap will conduct heat off faster, and the wrapping "deadens" the tube (eliminates barrel vibration). We'll see. If it works you could conceivably have a 30 inch dead solid Palma, Magnum, or AR-10 tube with better balance and up to three pounds lighter than possible with a full profile conventional barrel. And it doesn't look as gay as the Christensen tube on the factory 700.

Marty says they shot at Burroughs the other night with night vision when they spotted a 200-pound hog through a thermal sight crossing the range near the 300 yard target. Apparently it was deaf since a few rounds went overhead before one of the snipers connected and dropped it.

Poster in rear window of GI 5-ton truck in Baghdad: "One weekend a month MY ASS!" The Guard and Reserve guys are providing great service.

Will be meeting with Guard and Reserve to talk about a new Special Operations Forces Excellence in Competition (leg) match to be fired with your go-to-war kit. Tentatively, the Soldier is dressed in full belt kit, body armor, and helmet. Weapon is his go-to-war M4 or M16 (with all bells and whistles on it, including laser, illuminator, M203, Cappucino maker, whatever) but with back-up iron sight (not everyone has a glass sight). At the command "Fight!" he starts a 1-mile run. At 10 minutes a Figure 11 Hun target goes up for 30 seconds whether or not he's on the firing line (Soldier fires 2 rounds, drops empty magazine, loads a magazine of 8 and fires until he's either empty or target disappears). Targets go down. When everyone's on line they go to 200, 100, and 75 and repeat (20 seconds each exposure, shooting 2 and 8 with a magazine change). At 50 they get the command "Gas!" and have to mask -- at 15 seconds targets come up and go down. They move to 25, still masked, and repeat. Match complete, you go to the next station for the combat pistol match.

Man, this Army stuff is all right.

Sinister
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 03:09:01 (ZULU)

Sarge, it was a real pleasure to meet you this weekend. For those of you who haven't, he's a real nice guy and a good shooting partner. (now, will you tell me what you've got planned for SQ 2004, huh, pleeze?) His is the second GA rifle I've seen, and I can tell you, they produce heavy chubbiness just handling them! I'll pop for a chance to win one any day. Was kinda neet watchin' ole Sarge pull the trigger, giggle, pull the trigger, giggle.....they're THAT fun to shoot. Of course, the Howa held her own, but just. Man, where else can you go and the owner tells you to go shoot all you want at steel out to 1k, then lets you bed down in the bunkhouse? Nowhere, that's where. If I've ever met better folks, I've forgotten. And, just when I thought I'd gotten over the AR-15 match bug, I put some 69 and 80 grain MOLY-COATED (ha!) rounds downrange. Had to wing the dope, 'cuz I lost my dope book and don't memorize that stuff. First round, cold bore, 600 yds.....pow, CLANG! More chubbiness....great weekend, Bobby. THanks!

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 03:36:31 (ZULU)

Just a test

William S. Merrihew
Redding, CA, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 03:40:03 (ZULU)

Today's Atlanta Journal and Constitution (Sunday, 16 NOV 03)

Sniper school

Georgia Army post teaches fine art of killing from a half-mile away

Bill Torpy - Staff

Saturday, November 15, 2003

Fort Benning --- The winds played havoc with trajectory on the firing range, not unlike a fly ball on a blustery day at Wrigley Field.

Snipers know that a 20-mph wind can push a bullet eight inches off target at 700 yards. So Sgt. Paul Buki, lying splayed on his belly, peered through his magnifying spotter's scope and whispered targeting adjustments to Cpl. Marc Veen, who focused breathlessly through the eyepiece of his M-24 sniper rifle. Seconds later, the weapon emitted a dull crack. And then again. And again.

Five times, five hits.

The two-man sniper team from the 2-7 Cavalry, a mechanized unit from Fort Hood, Texas, immediately gathered its gear and padded back to the rear. The two smiled as they compared scores at the third annual U.S. Army International Sniper Competition, sponsored by the U.S. Army Sniper School.

The sniper school at Fort Benning, near Columbus, was an offshoot of an effort to retrain soldiers in Vietnam, where sharpshooting skills were not emphasized. "The sniper employment went by the wayside after the Korean War,'' said retired Maj. Willis Powell, who went to Vietnam in 1967 to train snipers and then returned to Benning to establish the program. ''The philosophy was, 'Put it [the weapon] on full automatic and let it go.' "

Sniper lore has it that the U.S. military used tens of thousands of bullets to kill each Viet Cong soldier but that snipers did it with 1.3. "One shot, one kill," is their motto.

Buki's job as a spotter was to give targeting information to his partner and then watch the "trace" --- the path of a bullet as it slices through the humidity, leaving visibly disturbed air. The 22-year-old Buki, from Erie, Pa., refers to the movie "The Matrix" to describe the phenomenon, before stiffening and adding, "Trace, the wake of a supersonic projectile that flies through the air."

"Good book answer," said Veen, 23, from a Chicago suburb.

Veen had never touched a firearm until joining the Army. "I didn't have bad habits," he said.

Buki is more typical of snipers, having grown up hunting. His father is a two-tour Vietnam veteran. Buki and Veen figure to see their own war. They say they'll probably be sent to Iraq in March.

They have trained as snipers for two years. Still, they're impressed by the veteran teams that have come to compete from the U.S. Army and Air Force, as well as from Germany, Britain and Canada. On Thursday, the two were scoring in the middle of the 21-team pack. "Probably lower middle," added Buki.

The Canadians seem advanced, Buki ventured, before gushing about the newest gizmo he had spotted. "One guy has a Palm Pilot that compensates for the earth's spin," he said. "I mean, good Lord."

Sgt. Kristopher Hector indeed has a gadget that takes the Coriolis effect into account, but he said he doesn't need it for shots of less than 1,500 yards. Hector, a 27-year-old Nebraskan who serves in the 5/19 Special Forces Group, a National Guard unit based in Watkins, Colo., finished second last year and was closing in on first place Thursday as he headed into the target identification event.

In that contest, heavily camouflaged snipers try to crawl undetected through the piney forest to identify military items around a blockhouse being guarded by sentries with binoculars. Reconnaissance is increasingly an important component of the sniper's mission. Hector got the high score in that event.

But on Friday, Buki and Veen were perfect on the range, said Capt. Jason Kostal, the sniper school commander, while the more experienced Hector and his partner, Sgt. David Kroupa, missed. The competition's winner would be "all up in the air" until scores are tabulated today, Kostal said.

The slight, red-haired Hector has a polite smile, an earnest demeanor and speaks easily of the science of delivering a fatal shot from half a mile away. Part of skill is innate ability, part is training and part is technology, he explained. There are a myriad of factors that affect a bullet's path: temperature, humidity, distance, light, range, type of ammunition. Snipers don't aim for the head; they lock in on a 40-by-20-inch rectangle that approximates a human torso, a higher-percentage shot.

Hector likes the gadgets and science of shooting. But he's also tough. On Monday, his left eye was gashed during a bumpy bus ride between events. He finished the event before seeing a doctor and taking 16 stitches. The cut came above his left eye --- the one he normally uses while working as a spotter. But he had trained himself to use both eyes. He figures he has fired tens of thousands of shots and then logged them into a journal.

Shooting is almost part of Hector's DNA. The Nebraska native started shooting at age 7. His father was a sniper in Vietnam. But times were different then. "They asked who wanted to carry the sniper rifle,'' Hector said. ''My dad was one of the few who raised his hand. . . . The skills he learned weren't nearly what I have learned."

The military gives potential snipers psychological tests. They don't want sociopaths, and they also don't want someone who would freeze when given the chance to kill.

Some snipers in Vietnam were reluctant to pull the trigger after scoping in on an unsuspecting enemy, said Powell. But he said he lost one of his best friends in combat, so "I didn't have any problem with it."

This generation of snipers says much the same thing. "If you have to [shoot], you're killing someone bad," Hector said. "It doesn't bother me."

Sinister
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 03:46:33 (ZULU)

Sinsiter,

Thanks for the post on the matches at Benning. A good insight to a specialty the regular media would never pickup or right anything good about.

Steve S

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 13:39:33 (ZULU)

Jaeger; Black hills has that stuff last I looked. Midway has made offerings of primed once fired Military stuff also. Usually Midway is a bit cheaper. If you need to get in business fast. Wally World has some 40 round boxes of FMJ Winchester that's cheap to buy and has good brass. It shoots damn good for FMJ also. I have pretty much stopped reloading Military more than once after the first firing due to so many chances for blown cases. Winchester on the other hand will load several times and winds up to about the same price overall unless you buy it new for 20 cents a round like most people sell it for.

Brogers
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 14:45:37 (ZULU)

Bolt:

On your TV Range system: I got so interested in this several years ago it was the reason for getting a "ham" license. These were the problems I found: 1) when talking Co-ax, know what "Impedence" is. It has the same symbol as resistence, but is NOT the resistence of "Ohm's Law" or what high school physics teaches. If the coax isn't the same impedence as the equipment, it'll be like pushing a pig through a garden hose to get the signal from target to you. If it does match, it'll be like a greased pig--easier but still a handful. The loss in coax is directly related to frequency. If you pipe the signal at "TV" freqs, expect big time losses and the need for a big, power hungry amp (and power source) at the camara end, and another at the reciever end. The best cable is pretty expensive. Think $5/foot as bargain basement.

2), Use a transmitter/reciever instead of 1000 yards of cable. There is nothing legal with the FCC that allows more than a "Poor" quality picture at 100 yards. A "Good" qual picture is at 50 feet. See the ARRL (Amature Radio Relay League) handbooks for a definition of picuture qualities (available in tech section of a GOOD library, or at Barns & Nobles). A half watt + with some gain antennas at each end will do nicely. Available mostly in KIT form, and about $300 (test equipment and learning curve not included). With power supplies this do-it-yourself approach could be about $500.

3) The camara. This, no matter how you relay the signal, is the big crunch. I wanted to see holes on "Bullseye" High power (SR/MR/LR) targets. finding a camara that would work at low light levels and still have RESOLVING power is tough, and again, expensive. Most home video camaras would not pick up a .22 hole in the black, and very few would find a .30 hole when the camara was mounted 6 feet from the target. The CCD camara boards in the electronics magazines are usually worthless for this, and tougher to test without buying. Since this post is long, I won't go into details of the range constraints that drove equipment specs.

Finally --It might be easier and much cheaper to use a video camara/recorder and see the results of several shots afterwards instead of "real time". I know the learning and practical value is less. Using a target color like red/orange/tan with an off-white background (anything near "pure" white will cause bloom and screw with the AGC circuit) will make the bullet hole MUCH easier to pick up.

artee
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 16:41:44 (ZULU)

Somebody leaked a bombshell to The Weekly Standard. I ordinarily disapprove of such, but you've got to check this out.

"OSAMA BIN LADEN and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda--perhaps even for Mohamed Atta--according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum obtained by THE WEEKLY STANDARD.

"The memo, dated October 27, 2003, was sent from Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith to Senators Pat Roberts and Jay Rockefeller, the chairman and vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. It was written in response to a request from the committee as part of its investigation into prewar intelligence claims made by the administration. Intelligence reporting included in the 16-page memo comes from a variety of domestic and foreign agencies, including the FBI, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the National Security Agency. Much of the evidence is detailed, conclusive, and corroborated by multiple sources. Some of it is new information obtained in custodial interviews with high-level al Qaeda terrorists and Iraqi officials, and some of it is more than a decade old. The picture that emerges is one of a history of collaboration between two of America's most determined and dangerous enemies."

Link below or click on my name:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/378fmxyz.asp

"Master and Commander" is visually spectacular enough to be worth seeing on the big screen. The battle scenes were excellent.

Mike M: Absolute bummer. Heal quickly.

CDC'
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 16:52:23 (ZULU)

post deleted; Artee covered it.

Brogers
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 17:12:14 (ZULU)

Sini-sir: That sounds like a smarter variation to the old Validation---which was more BRM in the middle of a long walk. Among other things, but I think what you described above provides a more challenging and realistic shoot for our shooters. I'm glad there are still guys like you around...training has been on a back-slide for a while, and that downward trend sped up after the LTs in Florida phase wandered off to die. What a blood-letting of experience that became.

I often wonder when our endless additions of "safety measures" will carry over and protect the bad guys too. I can remember the impact (figurativeley) of mortar rounds walking the objective as we assaulted; all live ammo, support tracers a scant 100 meters to our front. That was eye-opening, driving home many lessons that would only come to light in combat---when it is too late to be learning.

Try getting away with shit like that today....if you can even find a range that would support it.

Like I said, within our constraints---there is a few left willing to bring realism to training. Too damned few. Thank you Sinister, for sticking around.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 17:53:24 (ZULU)

Joe, I had good NCOs teach me. I had LOTs of good role models.

Once upon a time a young Squadron Commander put out guidance to team leaders and team sergeants, known as "Coyote's Rules" (I'm paraphrasing, as I'm taking this off the top of my head):

1 - The first report is always suspect.

2 - Shit happens. Plan for changes.

3 - Take the initiative. Don't wait for direction from higher -- it's rarely coming.

4 - Plan as if there are no rules.

Coyote is General Pete Schoomaker, now Chief of Staff of the Army. Rumsfeld had to shop around before he found a warrior, and had to activate him from the retired rolls. Pete Schoomaker has had "Perfect attendance" in every shooting match we've had since Desert 1.

I've found that aggressive leaders who won't take "No" for an answer lead the most successful units. Units that live-fire the most also usually seem to be the most effective. Funny how that works.

Jaeger, River Valley Ordnance Works has probably the best deals on once-fired processed (primed) GI 5.56mm brass. www.rvow.com

Sinister
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 21:18:18 (ZULU)

Sinister:

Dude, any word on whether or not they are ever gonna let cops train with the mil guys again?

... I'm all about a road trip.

brian k. sain
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 21:43:52 (ZULU)

Sinister / Jaeger -

www.scharch.com has 1000pc .223 once fired, fully reprocessed at $44.99 on their website. www.rvow.com is $55, but they cover shipping.

medicjim
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 21:54:24 (ZULU)

I've been toying with an idea for a camera remote for 1k. I have access to anything I need to experiement with, electronics is my game. Will let you know if I make anything work right. JVC makes camera's for about 8 bills that will do the job. We shall see. Powering is a problem but....

brogers
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 22:44:16 (ZULU)

Folks, your generosity continues to impress and humble me.

Fred in OH.........fund is now up to $211.82, thanks to your generous check.... We'll have to call Art's jerky shop pretty quick. Wife got a chuckle out of the address: "Bruce and CB Robinson."

BMG Mike sent me a box with 60 pre-paid phone cards, each worth an hour. No doubt they will be worth a great deal more to the lucky service personnel that receive them.

Thank you, gentlemen, and God bless you.

Back to the Rez tomorrow to see if they can unscrew the last order...got 5 rolls of Cope Snuff instead of the long cut that I requested. If they can sort this out, a good-sized box (including a bunch of magazines and Christmas cards) will go into the pipe on Wednesday.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 23:01:38 (ZULU)

>>>I can remember the impact (figurativeley) of mortar rounds walking the objective as we assaulted; all live ammo, support tracers a scant 100 meters to our front.<<<<<

29 Palms Range 400 company assault course is still like this. Only do it every three years on the current training rotation, but I imagine that any unit could schedule it without too much difficulty if they were in the 29 Stumps area.

Sinister Dave, any idea on the release of those 7mm 175gn SMK's from Sierra? If they used the form of the 142gn 6.5mm SMK, I think they'll have a real winner. I know I'll buy a couple 1000 for the 7mm Mag and maybe the 280AI in case Bergers get too pricy. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 23:18:04 (ZULU)

B K Sain: Nice article in the latest Tactical Edge. Mr. Wall came up here last year for our Mountain States Tactical Officers Conference, I think you are fortunate to have him on your team. Mike

Mike Dominick
Missoula, Mt, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 23:26:17 (ZULU)

Mr. Bill, incoming............SCDR E Mail....clean.

Two Shoes

Terry
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 01:39:12 (ZULU)

Brian, it seems DOD put out a policy memo in 1996 (during the Clinton Administration after one of the many post-Waco and Ruby Ridge reviews) specifically stating that active units (and ESPECIALLY USSOCOM) will not support cop training (specifically special operations like close quarters battle, sniping, and advanced MOUT) unless coordinated through one of the Assistant Secretary of Defense offices. Guard is exempt.

Also exempt is training from the Military Police School, like LE/Counter Narcotics Marksman training.

Jim, I've read of occasional quality control probelms with Scharch re-processed brass, but have no experience with them. Know lots of folks who use River Valley Ordnance (they'll re-process your brass if you came on a windfall of GI).

Ken, I don't know about the Sierra 7mm/175 release date, but they seem to be really good bullets.

Sinister
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 01:52:39 (ZULU)

Sinister:

Yeah, I knew about the '96 stuff. Was kinda hoping they would have relaxed things since 911. JTF6 stuff is good for us. Any chance of some more of that MP marksman stuff leaking out? (Not that you would have time to mess with it).

Hit me off roster if there's somebody I can contact. Ft. Leonard Wood maybe? I'm all for US tax supported training.

Did some of that Counter Drug marksman stuff a few years back. DEA boys were there. Lotsa city fellas. Real inexperienced with rifles. Most had ARs. My partner and I got bored and started putting little mush melons on top of their target stands when they weren't looking. We'd bust 'em with our bolt guns when they would fire. They couldn't understand what the hell was happening when their targets would go reactive. heh heh.

DEA boy: "Hey man, did you see that?"

Me spotting: See what?

DEA boy: When I fired, did you see that?

Me: Man I ain't seen shit.

DEA boy: (Real philosophical sounding) No really, I saw something down there.

Me: I know I ain't seeing no holes in your target there college boy, Shoot again ... heehee

Mike D:

Thanks for the kind words bro. You a sniper? Hit me off roster if so.

It was just a little team spotlight for my guys. Sandy works for Houston PD. He came down and joined us in a waterborne gig we hosted. We both nearly drowned ... had fun though. Swimming with porpoises and stuff ... He gets around. Good friend of ours.

Later fellas,

brian k. sain
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 02:51:31 (ZULU)

Sinister,

Sir it was a pleasure meeting you at the Wilson match! Also thanks for the update on the Sniper match at Benning. By the way, who won the match? Also that new EIC match sounds like it would be a BLAST! Keep us up to date!

SFC Pete Carpentier jr TXNG
CC, TX, - Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 03:13:18 (ZULU)

Sinister, ive been called a few names in my time, but never Paul, i figure you meant me, with ref to what the Brits where using, interesting post from you, we Brits call the match you talk about a "March and Shoot" and the Army is pretty big on that kind of competition, we did several different march and shoots, some with 1.5 mile run ups and some with up to 8 mile run up, some of the run was usualy in full NBC kit, and certainly much of the shooting phase was. One particularly interesting match was the Para Cup, this was (if i remember right)a section match with a 3 mile run up in full fighting order (advance to contact) which was timed and then you got ammo when arriving at the range, targets went up at a set time for a set time, you where either on time or not, the 2 guys in the section with the LSW's(gunners) ( SA 80 with a longer barrel and a bipod, x 4 SUSAT sight) engaged targets from 800m , as soon as targets went down the rest of the section (rifle men) advanced to 700 to engage other targets, when the shooting started the gunners advanced to 700m and engaged some more targets, this leap frog carried on all the way down to 100m (may have been 200) and at some point a gas alarm was sounded and we all had to mask up, it was an interesting match and the 3 mile run up certainly got your heart beating. The competition shooting is one of the things i miss most about the Army. And yes the SA 80 was always an accurate weapon (especialy when i"d done my tuning tricks on the ones used by the team) fine target weapon, very very poor combat weapon, it apparently hasn't improved much since H&K reworked it. The SUSAT ( x4 battle scope with tritium illuminated single post reticle) was a good piece of kit providing the Armourer set up the mount (which contained the elevation and windage mechanisms) correctly and the grunts didn't fuck about with the screws painted red and remembered to take up the slack on the windage screws when zeroing, the troops had a habbit of loosening one side and forgetting to tighten the other, The TA teams always did well at Skill at Arms meetings, they seemed to get a lot or practice ammo and range time.

Marc Palmer. I need a 7mm mauser finnishing reamer from Clymer and i need a .17 hornady rimfire mag reamer. not sure on part numbers, but i'll try to email you with em.

Pete.

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 08:10:17 (ZULU)

LOL! First report is suspect! I remember an O5 coming unglued as I sat (outwardly) patiently awaiting the follow up in JRTC...heheh. And for the record, it is hard not to do some second guessing. I was nerveous as hell that the hoards did in fact slip my REMBASS, and the other group I was tracking was the feint. Lesson, your first instinct ought never be ignored! More irony me sitting here tellin' war stories about JRTC...

Dave K: Box arrived. Rainy season is upon us and the ziplocks, especially that giant one, seems popular! BTW--never seen a ziplock that darned big...after the laughter dies down, everyone starts to imagine grand uses for it! I know I did, but I always give them away!

Bruce: 2 boxes in the mailroom to be signed for. I'll get them today. I thought about supplying the strykers, but they came in well stocked on a red carpet (bigtime). No need; this will all go to the far flung warriors who have been away from real support the longest. It's a subjective call--if anyone knows someone in the new unit or any unit special to you for whatever reason---hit me offline; we may be able to target them with pleasant incoming (forgive my gallows humor). My basic criteria is "who is sucking the worst out there?" These are the soldiers who will get what you send...

Anyone work up a 300 WSM recipe yet? I figure someone somewhere is playing with this round, and I'm waiting to hear the results. OAL, Leade, load data, etc. Being lazy and curious....all I can do is wait for the verdicts. Then, I want to build one....errr, pay George to build one that is--spec'd close to optimum. I believe that this could be competitive enough mid to long range, while not taking off my shoulder or the lands (or the eardrums)...not to get into a pie-fight---what I do on the range seems to fit the .300s. Kinda' GP boolit good for my backyard and multi-style match play. It doesn't have to be state of the art, just fun to shoot and decent enough to challenge this "non-state of the art" guy on the trigger. Barrel has to last a bit too. Maybe five years into retirement, I'll follow fatboy's example down the 6.5 road to quick change barrels...but not anytime soon. No point in it with my current abilities (or lack).

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 09:27:50 (ZULU)

Camp Butner-was finally off duty for one of their matches. Those who haven't gone are missing excellent facilities and great people. Met a couple of the brethern and got my first chance to shoot at 1000. Great learning experience. Many thanks to Bob for his coaching.

Gotta find that other thing Rick wrote once about goofs. Did his "forget to put dope on the sight till you see the first 'dirt buffalo'." at 600. Had the cheat card right in front of me and forgot to wind the little knob.

WR Moore
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 10:51:18 (ZULU)

Joe

Happy to provide some comic relief... Those big ZipLoc bags are a fairly new item (for me anyway). I get them at BassPro Shops and WalMart (in the fishing section). They come in three sizes I believe, the ones I generally get are 12 gallon size (extra large)...

They're great and I generally pack all the stuff I send to my son in Baghdad in one of those first... gotta take care to squeeze out all the air or leave them open or they'll self enlarge at high altitude/low pressure and burst the outer cardboard package(s).

Leaving for Eau Claire this coming Friday morning... I make the rounds for you while I'm there.

Take care

v/r

Dave "Doc" King
USA - Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 12:43:59 (ZULU)

Dave,

If you happen to have time to make contact while up there, let me know in man-terms how big the new baby is. Ya know, like Javelina-size or badger-size. The Wife's chippy-descriptions are kinda hard to understand (example: "she's filling up the car seat"-- Now what does that mean anyway?)...heheheh. Deer season up there...Geoff and Deputy Doug live thataway also.

Geoff, you going to hunt the farm this year? Wife says yer welcome to; just call ahead...

and Shoot one for me!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 13:19:58 (ZULU)

Joe

Not a problem... Man-terms are about all I speak in... I'll call before showing up, don't want to get a thumb sized hole through my good hunting clothes!

I do like to get driving directions from a women though.. always good for a laugh... "Go to where the big yard sale was last fall, turn left (gestures to the right) then go until the last stop light and you're there."

I'll be hunting down near Rock Falls, Durand and Meridean (Meridean Island on the Chippewa the first day)... Might go down to Erne and also Black Rivers Falls for a bit too... then one trip up North for a stop in Hayward and the bars.

Take care.

v/r

Dave "Doc" King
USA - Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 14:15:36 (ZULU)

Durand to BRF takes you about 10 miles south of my farm (hwy 10 to 93 route). If you take 37 north you'll be on the other end of my road...if you miss that turn, stop at the welcome matt for a cold one, and say hi to all. Chances are, one of my in-laws will be there...And if you do use that route, don't bother asking the wife for directions. You'll end up back in Durand. But you will see the pony ranch where peanut got her first riding lesson. heheh

Bill: Impose? Sir, you couldn't "impose" on me if you just moved in and ate all my venison. You are equally welcome in my house as you are in my email account!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 15:34:34 (ZULU)

Anyone know a source for the woodland pattern Goretex scope and action covers that used to be issued with the M40's? They attached to the Unertl with two velcro straps, then wrapped around the left side of the gun, covered the trigger guard, floor plate, then the bolt and looped over the top of the scope and covered that as well. They had an elastic band on the part that went over the Unertl so that they stayed in place. Worked really well for keeping funk and rain/snow out of the action and optics. Had them for all the M40's until my armorer sent them to Quantico, where the covers got liberated by someone who wanted them more than us. I still blame that armorer. Quantico and the USPS usually returns the serialized stuff, but anything else gets "lost". The various scope covers that you can get from SOE,BH,LBT, etc are too big and bulky, and while they protect the scope from bashing, if you're bashing the scope you're an idiot. Thanks. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 16:43:36 (ZULU)

Dave "Doc" King,

I hunt by Bloomer (Just north of Eau Claire). If you have a regular watering hole you frequent hit me off line. It would be nice to meet you or any one else in the area.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 18:14:36 (ZULU)

It looks like the Army is looking at a replacement for the M16.

http://sf1000.registeredsite.com/~user880686/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=005661

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m8-oicw.htm

Anyone have an inside scoop? This is being developed by the same people that brought you the OICW.........

Duman
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 19:07:00 (ZULU)

Guy giving me a statement on an agg kidnapping today was trying to say fatal attraction but got it wrong and said "trailer attraction"

'bout pissed myself.

Just thought I'd share that.

brian k. sain
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 20:11:42 (ZULU)

Hi guys. I'm back (David)

OK, found a dealer in Calif that has the Remington 700 PSS .308 that everyone recommended as a good beginner rifle for shooting out to 1000 yards. Put down the money.

However, the dealer questioned the glass you guys spec'd. Leupold Vari-X 3.5-10x40 M3LR.

First he couldn't find it on the Leupold web site. Discontinued model? Next, in his opinion it was an excellent setup for 100 - 200 yds, but low power for 1,000.

He also knew nothing about Badger Ordinance rings & bases. He recommended Leupold (and he could get them easier).

I won't be picking up the rifle for a while, and we've agreed to either spec the glass when I pick it up or just let me take care of it somewhere closer to home.

Since I'm not looking for the worlds best and would like this to last me a long time, could you guys take the time to give me a little more feedback, please?

Why Badger instead of Leupold? Why not a more powerful scope? Is his opinion of low power just an opinion or does it really make a difference?

Thanks from a beginner

David

David Smith
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 20:58:56 (ZULU)

The guy has limited knowledge dude. Doesn't know what Badgers are?

Get the rifle and move on bro.

Call Marty Bordsen at Badger and/or Dick Thomas at Premier Reticle.

Some of the guys here make the money to buy whatever they want. If they say 10X rules as a general consensus, then go buy a 10X.

They ain't steering you wrong here bud. Those combos are tried and true, proven winners.

brian k. sain
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 21:07:12 (ZULU)

David.

The M3LR scope is intended for PRACTICAL shooting. If you want to sit yourself down all comfy like, perhaps on a nice bench, and perch that rifle on a heavy and overly elborate rest....well, then high speed equipment is not really indicated...

Same with the Badger rings...why spend all that money when the only stress you expect is the gentle caress of a soft polishing cloth as the rifle re-enters the gun vault after a sunny trip to the bench.

NOW..... if you plan on running around with the rifle, maybe getting into matches where you have to stand up and shoot while someone is causing you stress....well then...what the heck are you gonna do with a 30x scope when you cannot hold perfectly still so the darn target stays in the scope's VERY limited field of view.

And... remember, when you buy those 'less expensive' rings, and trip and fall while someone is yelling at you to run faster...well heck, you might just tap that 30x scope a bit and knock it off kilter...now how do you figure you are gonna do for the rest of the competition, when all your shots are hitting the target two down from yours....

<g> ...all this delivered with a polite smile on my face....

medicjim
Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 21:35:18 (ZULU)

BKS.....Mail..... N/A

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 21:55:13 (ZULU)

David,

Brian is right. The guy just doesn't know. Ten might seem a little light for 1K target shooting but I think you'll like the 3.5 setting on the close range movers.

I've learned so much from sitting over here in the corner of the bar for the past 3 years. This site is just amazing. A far cry from hanging out at the local gun shop listening to guys who look at lots of magazines and rarely fire a shot but are quick to advise on "what the match shooters use" or "what the spec ops guys shoot".

Marc

Marc
CV, CA, - Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 22:33:41 (ZULU)

David;

I use the obsolete Leupold Vari-X II 3-9X40 Tactical. It does well enough at 1000. High magnification isn't as important as glass quality and ruggedness. Sure, my scope is obsolete, but it does all I ask and I trust it.

For shooting 1000 yards, if you haven't yet, you'll notice that mirage can make the most powerful scopes useless. The worse the mirage, the lower the magnification will have to be. Several of the guys I shoot with have 32X scopes and sometimes have to shoot them on 12X or less.

The M3LR is a good scope. If you want to shoot sniper comps, go ahead now and step up to the Premier. Get good rings (Badger)too. It's always better to buy once and be happy.

If you want to shoot F Class, look around at long-range.com and see what going on.

LATER

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 23:33:52 (ZULU)

David; 10X will get you by. 14X is about all you can gain benefit from at any range with mirage present in my small experience. However scopes are getting more practical at higher powers and help spot holes and are a little bit better to see where the hit lands. But I'll usually take 10 and shoot just as well as I will at 20.

OH yeah, but don't go with the regular Leupold Mounts and rings. IF you go Leupold go the tactical stuff that uses the Weaver style base. It's not badger but it works...Those regular Leupold mounts and rings won't do it. Better to use the old Weaver Mounts if you wanna go cheap. They stay put at least. NOT aluminum ones however.

B Square makes a weaver style mount that is adequate for all but grenade attacks for about 30 bucks per set. You might but shouldn't need extra elevation to get to 1000 with that .308. Burris makes a mount with Nylon shims that works. You can get extra taper with it up to about 15 degrees I think. Or better yet, do what BKS said and get the good stuff.

Hank B. I sent you a pix of that 1k target. Hope it gets through all your firewall protections etc, I'm sure its clean. As you can see the wind is a devil that has to be paid. There are only about 10 lethal hits on that silouette out the 15 shots. Wind about 5mph. From 3 different directions while those 3 strings went out. We gotta try the Lapua on that range.

BKS; I laughed all afternoon about that Trailer Attraction.

Brogers
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 00:49:07 (ZULU)

Sain,

Just tell me what I can do to expedite the completion of your book, and I will happily do it.

For someone who was born in TN and grew up in Piedmont NC (and lived in the late sixties as a college student in "Happy Squalor Trailer Court"), I put my Scotch out my nose when I read of "Trailer Attraction."

Let me know how I can help. I'll put my current project on hold.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 01:29:53 (ZULU)

OKAY, Rosterfarians, need some help. Working on a project. Called Robar today to ask about the M-14 mag conversion for a bolt action. They don't do it any more. Know anyone who does? If not, does anyone have one that I could look at detailed photos of? I work part time in a machine shop so reverse engineering the thing would not be hard to do. I'd just need measurements and pics. Any help would be appreciated. I want to get this conversion done on my LTR.

As for the Dude getting the new PSS. I don't mean to sound harsh, but these guys know their shtuf. I'd listen up. If you want to build a bench or hunting rifle, the the Leupold rings will probably do fine. The Badger Ord. Mounts are designed to take a beating in real world use. You can find them in the Brownells catalog. The Leupold M3LR can be found at SWFA, look in Shotgun news. Still sold. I have four M3's, one on my .308 PSS mounted in Badger rings and one peice base. Works good, last long time.

Cory

Cory Wilson
Panama City, Florida, USA! USA! - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 01:44:18 (ZULU)

Dave, Had a great time hanging out at Benning/AMU. Getting that Carbon M-24 barrel on an action this week, will fill you in as well as the roster on its performance.

Sniper Comp. The Winners were National Guard guys from Nebraska, trained at Camp Robinson, AR Probably Buddies of SFC Pete.

The hog shooting Sinister was talking about was alot of fun. We were out at Burroughs range at 0200 hrs messing with the New ELCAN/SPECTR IR weapons site and some new high speed Nite scopes when the Huge Hog decided to create a nice 300 yard mover for us. Marty spotted him with the IR, he looked like a huge Kidney Bean moving accros the range. He took 3 hits and was estimated to be 300+ pounds. One less hog to tear up Sinisters 1000 yard palma range.

SC LTD edition rifle #2 is finally feeling like ut will have a home soon. Whoever wins her will be proud.

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision
Kansas City, Mo , USA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 01:50:10 (ZULU)

David Smith: For a dedicated 1,000 yd rifle 14X is probably better. 14X Vari-X III Loopies with 30 mm tubes have 50mm objectives. That's a a big, awkward scope. Hauling these heavy rifles around is bad enough as it is. Due to leverage, the size makes the 14x more fragile than a smaller scope. I can assure you and your dealer that 10X will do at 1,000. For a field rifle, that's enough.

CDC'
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 02:00:15 (ZULU)

Gents,

Back from my elk hunt. Results...? Well, the elk won. We covered some rough country in the coast mountains of Oregon. A herd with three branch antler bulls was sighted, along with 9 cow elk. No one could position for a clear shot. We never could find them after that...:-(

Rain? Just enough to where I thought I should trade my rifle for a spear gun...

David, take the advice of the old salts on the list. Be it rifles, scopes, or whatever. I've been where you are and would have appreciated it a decade ago when I started this stuff.

As to scopes, I like the MK IV series and have a 10X M1 on my .308 and a 16X M1 on my .338 Lapua.

If I were looking for a scope today, I'd look real hard at Leupolds Vari-X III M1 LR 3.5 X 10 power. Priced right and the variable lets you work in close if you need that option. I have one of these on my 6.5 X .284 Chandler gun and it's a peach.

As to mounts: Buy the best you can afford. I have a set of the Leupold heavy tacticals, and two sets of the Badger Ordinance 20 degree sloped base and heavy duty 30MM rings. I recommend these without reservation.

I DO NOT recommend going higher than 10X on a .308. You'll do most of your shooting inside 600 yards, anyway, and the 10X will let you shoot at 1,000 yards with no problem.

With hunting over I'm moving into my training for the Oregon Sniper Championship in January/February. Don't know if I'll shoot military category, Law Enforcement, or Civilian as I qualify for all three.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 02:14:59 (ZULU)

David Smith.....

Listen to those of us who have made the purchasing mistakes. It is better to buy the right stuff the first time, even if you have to eat PB&J for breakfast, dinner and supper for a couple months. I bought and sold a pickup load of gun junk before I finally settled down and listened to the Masters. I would not hesitate to use the M3 for any type of shooting except benchrest. In fact, I wish they made the 6.5-20 and 8.5-25 with M3 knobs. I truly like not having to make multiple rotations of the elevation knob to get to a thousand. I'm getting to where I more and more like "minute of X ring accuracy" in these matches, which will also apply to hunting where you want "minute of vital". As for 10 power, yep, I never had a problem. I do like the higher powers, but the sun demons will heat your ass up quickly and make the target look like you have the worlds worst hangover.

WR Moore......

So you were the one making those tactical berm shots?????? Hell, don't feel bad, I forgot to turn in my score card for the 1000yd. round. Wasn't that good anyway.

Well, back to working on the Hazmat Team equipment grant request. I really enjoy spending our tax dollars for something worth while for a change.

Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 03:17:34 (ZULU)

Joe, may or may not. If so, I will call ahead. Doc and Joe U, if you do try to link up, let me know!

B(In)Sain...gotta email from you. According to my updated-twice-daily antivirus software...it had the Klez. I deleted it. Spoofed sender I imagine.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 03:37:12 (ZULU)

I apologize for the long post!

Count me in to win a stick!

Couple of things, anyone have any luck with the 300wsm at 600+? My wife wants a distance rifle now that she blew the 10 off of 2 3" shoot-n-c's with cold shots with my 22-250ackley! I am toying around with the Idea of a 308 on a Custom Mauser for her (she likes Mausers and they are a bit more affordable) or a 300wsm. I haven't heard much good about accuracy, good shooters were getting 2" groups, but they were shooting factory sticks with factory fodder. What about the difference in recoil? Significant? She is 5'4" and 115# and wouldn't talk to me for a while after I tricked her into shooting my 5 1/2 pound 30-06ackley!

While I'm checking on those two, I might as well ask about the 6.5x284 fag mag as well. I'm not looking to start a debate, I just don't really know the small stuff as well. I shoot H&H Mags for fun! I do the long overbore stuff because the pain lets me know I'm alive I guess, but the only small stuff I shoot are the 22-250 and the 30-06.

My 22-250 is an HS Pres. on a M-70 with a 27" Lilja bull barrel, it weighs 16# and she doesn't mind the (lack of) recoil on it at all, and I figure I can come close to that with a heavy 308 with a bloop tube or can on it. I just really want to know from people who have experience with these calibers (the wsm and the fm) to see if these calibers are viable alternatives for my recoil sensitive wife!

Thanx for any info, and say hi to my shy wife (her name's Tuesday) who occasionally lurks. Just got her into shooting last year, and she has more natural trigger control than I ever learned!

Robert Martin
Port St. Lousy, FL, USofA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 03:57:22 (ZULU)

Wasn't me bud.

!@#%$&^@!#%$*!

brian k. sain
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 04:34:47 (ZULU)

Pete the Piggy Poacher strikes again. Picked up a couple of buckets full of spuds on the way to the woods last night, (farmer had disgarded then cos thy where too small) got into the woods and stalked my way in to one of my tree stands, got to within about 50m of the stand when i heared piggies, damn i thought, the sods are at the corn already,its 21.00 and i'm late cos i put the TV on whilst eating and Snipers was on the History channel so i watched it. I left the bucket of spuds i was carrying and crept in towards the stand, slowly slowly, took me maybe 10 minutes to cover the 50 yards, i climbed the ladder very slowly, luckily the wind was just right and the damn ladder didn't creak under my weight, i got the rifle laid over the top of the ladder and got ready, took a peek through the bino's to check out the hogs, 3 sows, about a half dozen year or so old hogs and a bunch of this years piglets, all mixed up around the beer barrel gruntin and squeelin and munchin, due to pressure from the forestry commission boss man to get a body count, i figured in wacking 2 piglets with one shot, but the darn pigs wouldn't stand right, it would have been an arse end and a boiler room shot, bugger it i thought, i'f i"m lucky i'll be able to get 2 shots off. chose a piglet and let the 308 speak, boom, worked the bolt quick, and this is where the plan went to rat shit, got a goddamn stoppage, bloody Sako extractor chuks the damn empty case out at a difrent angle and this bloodywell don't mix with the windage turret on the S&B PMII, i knew that it fouled on the damn turret but i forgot, the case wacks the turret and then falls back in to the action and you then try to feed a new round and an empty case all at one, mother #$%%, then the damn ejection port on the damn short action is so bloody small (causes me alsorts of bother when loading etc with my fat litytle fingers, never have bother with the long action though), finaly got the damn stoppage cleared and a round in the chamber (was only a second) shouldered the rifle followed a bolting pig, swung through it just as it disapeared behind a damn tree. Bugger..!! never mind at least i got one. Dumped my kit in the stand, gave it 10 mins and went tracking piggus disapearedus, lotsa blood, bits of lung, hmm, could be a good sigh, could be bad, ive seen these little sods go 900m with a lung shot, followed the blood trail for maybe 30m and there was piggus deadus. dragged him back to the stand and gralloched him, dumped the guts off to the left of the stand, maybe catch a fox at them later. Hung the pig from the stand and went stalking, stalked a deer, got in pretty close 15m or so before it realised i was there, could have shot it easy, but it was dark and we aint supposed to shoot deer in the dark, plus its a bitch to tell which sex they are when you can't see em very well. Stalked around untill about 01.45 and then got back to the tree stand, stayed in there untill 05.30, then it was time to get the car , get the piggy to the cooler and get to work for 07.00. Piggy weighed in at about 45lbs, thats about 1 third short for this time of year, no doubt due to the dry summer. Get another one tonight !!

Cory. Armalon in the UK do am M14 conversion for the Rem 700. and "If you want to build a bench or hunting rifle, the the Leupold rings will probably do fine." that depends on what you hunt and where you hunt, i like my badger rings.

Dave Smith, listen to the guys on here, you will find that most gun shop staff these days are sales men and not nessisarily(sp) enthusiasts, and besides, they all want to sell you either what they have in stock or what the can make the most profit on. as suggested before, buy the rifle and then call Bagder Ord and Premier Reticles. then get a sling from Undude and a Mildotmaster from Bruce. Buy a Harris Bipod and a decent rifle slip or hard case and a few diffrent types of factory ammo, then go shoot the sucker, you may want to start reloading at some point too.

I'd say for shooting purposes a 16x is about all the magnification any one would need, i used to have a 6-20x50, i used the 20x for spotting holes in targets and for checking out bucks antlers, i was to lazy to carry a spotting scope, but this is not good practice, ive been using a 3-12x S&B for years now and 12x is all the mag ive needed, nowadays i just shoot the bucks and check the antlers when i get to touching distance.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 07:16:41 (ZULU)

Dave S: Have you read all the other information available right here on this website? I think you will find answers to questions you haven't asked yet, and certainly detailed information on the questions you are asking now. Take a night off and browse the archives and articles. Just a suggestion...and ditch your gun dealer for future advice. He sounds less knowledgable than me--and that is very scary indeed...Spring of 2002 had some interesting conversation on the scopes. Some outstanding pie-fights too.

Grrrrrrr. REMFworld is hell on earth. I'm gonna start attending regular church service just to avoid this place in the future! I can hear ol' Saint Peter now if I don't mend my ways, "You will report for duty with the assistant G4 office, Subsurface Support Command as the item manager for coal. This is an unaccompanied hardship tour. You will proceed on or about now with an expected DEROS of never. Authorized CTA-50 is limited to pitchfork, red and one tail, pointed. Excess baggage not authorized. Reporting Instructions: Go straight to hell. "

Too many people with jobs--not enough with "missions" around here. "Not my job" is the common refrain.

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 11:38:54 (ZULU)

JOe; I know it's boring and sorry as hell but our selfishness dictates you stay out of the fire zone (Iraqi shooting gallery). Those rpg's from nowhere and not being able to go offensive without orders up front suck terrible. We'd just as soon get you back from this some day.

I'm like Peter L. too lazy to pack a spotting scope hunting unless it's from my Silverado that I'm looking. But the only use for rifle power over 14 is just for spotting bullet holes. I can't see much more with 45X spotting scope than a good 14X 40 will show me. All I get is a larger more wavy image and shorter eye relief. My spotting scope hardly ever goes over 20X in the field. When hunting in the mountains I carry a mostly zeroed 20X or better rifle scope to back up my other scope in case of failure.

It can be used for spotting bullet holes to confirm zero at some base camp. If it's mil-dot you can also use it for ranging without adding to the weight of your kit much. All the spotting scopes in the world don't do you much good if your primary rifle scope fails and you can't replace it. Have a set of mounts and have it zeroed or at least a bore sighter with you.

Geo ;do you happen to know what kind of scopes/rifles etc..the Neb Guard was using?

Brogers
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 12:42:59 (ZULU)

To Bolt (C.C. Artee)

Try this place for Transceivers it will give you the range at a reasonable cost http://www.123securityproducts.com/wirtran1.html

Camera resolution is another thing as Artee said but if you shoot well just place it right next to the dam thing.

PS who do I e-mail about this raffle?

TO all sorry if the rest of this is long just skip it if you want but I just wanted to explain that not all of us are arseholes in the UK and don't want G.W.Bush over here! It is just a ill informed few who are being conned.

The London Streets:

Who are these anti-Bush people?

National Review

November 18, 2003, 11:02 a.m.

By Amir Taheri LONDON — George W. Bush's visit to London this week will be historic for at least two reasons. He will be the first U.S. president to come to Britain on a state visit. He will also observe a bizarre political marriage: one between the remnants of the Marxist-Leninist Left and militant Islamists. Negotiated over the past two years, the "wedding," will be celebrated in a mass demonstration against Bush's visit.

The demonstration is organized by a shadowy group called "Stop the War Coalition," part of the Hate-America-International, which has orchestrated a number of street "events" in support of the Taliban and the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein since 2001.

When I called the coalition to ask whether the idea was to stop all wars, a spokeswoman assured me that this was not the case.

She referred me to the first article of the coalition's charter that states: "The aim of the coalition is simple: to stop the war currently declared by the United States and its allies against 'terrorism.'"

"We really want to stop Bush and Blair from going around killing babies," she said. "Our objective is to force the U.S. out of Iraq and Afghanistan."

But what if a U.S. withdrawal means the return of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein?

"Anything would be better than American Imperialist rule," she snapped back.

Who are these nostalgics of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein?

The coalition has a steering committee of 33 members. Of these, 18 come from various hard left groups: Communists, Trotskyites, Maoists, and Castrists. Three others belong to the radical wing of the Labour party. There are also eight radical Islamists. The remaining four are leftist ecologists known as "Watermelons" (Green outside, red inside).

The chairman of the coalition is one Andrew Murray, a former employee of the Soviet Novosty Agency and leader in the British Communist party. Cochair is Muhammad Asalm Ijaz of the London Council of Mosques. Members include John Rees of the Socialist Workers' party and Ghayassudin Siddiqui of the Muslim Parliament. Tanja Salem of the Al-awdah (The Return) group, an outfit close to Yasser Arafat, is also a member along with Shahedah Vawda of "Just Peace," another militant Arab group, and Wolf Wayne of the "Green Socialist Network."

A prominent member is George Galloway, a Labour-party parliamentarian under investigation for the illegal receipt of funds from Saddam Hussein. In his memoirs, Galloway says that the day the Soviet Union collapsed was "the saddest day" of his life.

Galloway says the only terrorism in the world today comes from the United States, not from organizations such as al Qaeda or the remnants of the Iraqi Baath party.

The coalition was created in London in September 2001, at first as an exclusively leftist concoction bringing together the remnants of the Stalinist "peace movement" of the 1950s, diehard "no nukes" activists, and some fellow travellers.

The coalition has succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its founders. For the first time ever it has brought together all radical leftist and anarchist groups. Under its umbrella march such traditional former archenemies as Stalinists and Trotskyites.

But the coalition's biggest success is the alliance that it has forged between the extreme Left and militant Islamist groups. This would have been unthinkable even a couple of years ago. The Left always regarded Islam as a "relic of feudalism" and an instrument of reactionary Arab regimes. For their part, the Islamists regarded leftists as atheist enemies who had to be put to the sword.

The first to advocate a leftist-Islamist alliance against Western democracies was Ayman Al Zawahiri al Qaeda's #2.

In a message to al Qaeda sympathizers in Britain in August 2002, he urged them to seek allies among "any movement that opposes America, even atheists."

The idea has received strong support from Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, the Venezuelan terrorist known as "Carlos the Jackal."

In his book Revolutionary Islam, published in Paris last month, Carlos, who says he has converted to Islam, says he has advised Osama bin Laden, the al Qaeda leader, to forge an alliance with "all guerrilla, terrorist and other revolutionary groups throughout the world, regardless of their religious or ideological beliefs."

Carlos says Islam is the only force capable of persuading large numbers of people to become "volunteers" for suicide attacks against the U.S.

"Only a coalition of Marxists and Islamists can destroy the US," he says.

This week's anti-Bush demonstration in London will mark the emergence of a coalition the hard core of which consists of the radical Left and militant Islamism. Around it we find other groups who hate the U.S. for different reasons. There are supporters of free abortion, opponents of capital punishment, anti-globalization fanatics, advocates of the Kyoto protocol on the environment, and anti-Semites who believe the Jews control the United States. But a good part of the planned demonstrations will, as always, consist of what Lenin called "the useful idiots", men and women of good faith whose political naiveté makes them natural targets for experts in agitprop.

But why are these people taking to the streets?

One reason is that the parties, groups, and individuals involved have consistently failed to find a place in the normal institutions of British democracy.

The 60 or so leftist and Islamist groups involved in this odd enterprise have never managed to win more than one half of one percent of the votes in any British general election. Nor have they succeeded in winning a single seat in parliament or a majority in a single municipal council.

Those who can never win elections, always take to the streets. Street politics enables them to escape debate on complex issues that cannot be reduced to a few simplistic slogans.

Britain's participation in the war against terrorism was the subject of four exhaustive debates in the House of Commons in 2001 and 2002, each followed by a vote that Prime Minister Tony Blair won.

Street politics is for those who wish to abolish individual political judgment, the cornerstone of democratic life. Street politics encourages the irrational tendencies of crowds that could turn into hunting packs or lynch mobs. Power won in the streets produces only ochlocracy (rule by the worst).

To make sure that no discordant voice is heard, the organizers of the demonstrations have announced that only "authorized" t-shirts, hats and other paraphernalia will be allowed. Only four slogans are permitted: "Stop Bush," "Stop Blair," " U.S. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan," and " Bush Go Home!"

The demonstration's security force, made up of muscular Marxists and Islamists, has instructions to prevent any sign of pro-American sentiments. A group that has said it wants to take part in the demonstrations with t-shirts saying "Bush-Cheney: Four More Years!" has been warned of "dire consequences."

The London demonstration is planned and will be supervised in the best Stalinist traditions still in force in North Korea.

In countries that suffer under despotism, the street is, at times, the only space available to the opposition. This is why we hear so much about the so-called "Arab street." But do we need a "British street" that disdains the institutions of democracy, including mainstream political parties, and the parliament?

Dry
UK - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 13:26:31 (ZULU)

Dry,and these damn commies and rag heads are drawing state benefits, we should strip them of all thier possesions, deport the whole damn lot to Afghanistan and Iraq and let them put thier knecks on the line and live under the mad mullahs, mean while we take all the decent pro western afghani's and iraquis and give them what we took from the commie rags and make them welcome. Then we nuke the shit out of the crap we deported.

I just found out that the company i work for has a contract culling wild boar here in Germany, sod the space race, i'm going for a job in the pork race, well at least i'll offer some unpaid overtime in the form of added value.. yeah..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 13:48:29 (ZULU)

Dry-

That's deep. Hopefully those groups won't organize and form political fronts to try to get members elected to parliment. What a mess that would be. The UK seems to be a stepping stone for polysci as well, so I am sure we will begin seeing the same crap over here soon. Woe is us.

Don't know if it made good national coverage, but has anyone been keeping up with what happened in Boca Raton a few weeks back? A guy opened the door after a kid knocked and ran, and proceeded to shoot him IN THE BACK as he was leaving the yard. Kid was sixteen, good christian, well liked, no prior trouble. He and friends pulling a "harmless prank" that most of us pulled as well I'm sure! Guy was not arrested, but a warrant issued later for manslaughter. He turned himself in that night.

The community is outraged, and the media is playing to their fears. One news cast recently was promo'd (paraphrased) "See who's packing Heat in Your Neighborhood" as a lead in to a story about how many of us law abiding citizens have concealed weapons permits. Another did a story on Glasers (apparently he had frangible rounds in the gun) and stated that they were illegal and akin to cop killers. Bullshit! And anti gunners have been overloading radio talk shows (if you get a few minutes got to wzzr.com and "listen live" between 10.00 and 15.00 zulu-5 (est)) It is starting to cool some, but this fire is getting hot people. Be careful!

Robert Martin
Port St. Lousy, FL, USofA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 13:51:02 (ZULU)

David......the 3.5x10X LRM3 is a very good scope and I agree that it will perform extremely well at 1000yds.......my very first 1000yd FClass target shot with a .308 was wearing a 3.5x10 LRM3, it scored a 200-10X out of a possible 200-20X....I was damn excited, the "Bolt-meister" was a bit shaken....he was my scorer for the match, and as always he saluted me with the middle No. 1 sign !!!!!! hehehe

Badger anything is the cat's ass !!!! They are built to take whatever we are tough enough to give them.....

Boltman....did you get my email from Monday ????

WRMoore....we will meet up next time !!!! Hell, I'll even buy your breakfast....

Later,

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 14:03:36 (ZULU)

Pete

I think a little over kill. But I like the idea of deporting them to the countries that they think are great, living under a government that wont let them say anything with out a good beating, or worse.

But then again I’m scared to say such things these days just in case it’s not PC and I get banged up by my government or police. ( again not PC you see)

Robert

They wont go political as it said in the article they cant stand up to any real questions, and so few people support them. But they deceive reasonable Christian / Islamic / ordinary people into making them support something that it is not. But why aren’t the news papers publishing this information? that is a much more insidious question. Oh all those poor babies they Killed /are killing (we are not) but what about all the babies we are saving, peoples lives we are making far better than under Sadam? I blame the press for doing such a shoddy job because good news doesn’t sell news papers rubbish.

Dry
UK - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 15:36:32 (ZULU)

Mr. Martin, a great caliber for long range is the 300WSM. Call up GA Precision and tell George you want a "Rocket" Thats a version of the Rock in 300WSM, with 24 fluted Mike Rock 5R and HS detachable magazines. You can hand load 175s to over 3100fps and 190s to over 2900fps with ease. Here is the catch and I dont understand this. That rifle with a 190 at 2900 fps feels like a 308 going off. Shots at 1000 yards with it are like a 308 at 600 yards. I cant say enough good about this caliber.

Peter thanks for the plug on the slings.

On protests of Bush in England lets face it they only report the crap the media wants to see on this.

Sinister welcome back

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 15:46:40 (ZULU)

LEUPOLD TO DISCONTINUE VARI-X 3 SCOPES

I received this information today and is the first I have heard about it:

"Leupold is discontinuing their great line of Vari-X 3 Scopes and modifying their VX-2 Scopes. In 2004, Leupold will introduce their VX-3 Scopes as a replacement to the Vari-X 3 and roll out their new line of VX-2 Scopes."

Does anyone have additional information about this? What will this mean in regard to their scopes used for tactical work and Long Range? Is this an improvement or a cost cutting measure (mean buyer looses behind less quality or loss of function)?

Inquiring minds what to know...

Byron
CA, USA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 16:28:30 (ZULU)

Mike, i carried my 308 about through the woods for a good few hours last night, ive tended to use these slings with the neoprene soft shoulder pad on hunting guns up to now, like the ones from niggeloh, but i'll tell you what, yours is a darn site easier on the shoulder, the wide web strap spreads the weight of the rifle nicely, those soft neoprene things seem to fold and its like carrying the rifle on a thin piece of rope, it digs like hell into your shoulder. I suffer with my right shoulder since a car accident 2 years ago, you sling is "The dog bollocks" that means its good.

Just watching sky news, they are playing down the protests in london, telling it as it is, seems only a few hundred of the expected thousands of protesters turned up, bunch of dogs knobs ( that means bad)

All you marlin lever gun owners out there, get over onto the marlin web site and get your name on the list to get Hogue to produce a stcok for the guide guns and 1895 series, ive been at em for ages to make me one. and have you noticed that your trigger finger gets caught by the trigger when you lever quickly? i shortened the trigger on mine ages ago and its a hell of lot better.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 16:43:24 (ZULU)

Pete,

You have mail about pig hunting with no attachments.

Marcf
CV, CA, - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 16:53:13 (ZULU)

MarcF, which email addy did you use? i just mailed you though the roster, no attachments with the right addy. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 17:26:28 (ZULU)

More on what we know of cooperation between Sadaam and al Qaeda:

"Anybody who says there is no working relationship between al Qaeda and Iraqi intelligence going back to the early '90s--they can only say that if they're illiterate. This is a slam dunk."___James Woolsey, CIA director under President Bill Clinton.

Link below or click my name.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/396hflxy.asp

Make sure you check out Dry's link. America's enemies are uniting. Some senior Democrats and some of the networks' talking hairdos are running cover for them. They like Osama bin Laden and Sadaam Hussein more than they like Republicans.

CDC'
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 17:39:50 (ZULU)

The hardest thing I ever had to swallow anywhere about this mess is that Sadamn and his asshole buddy Osama weren't sleeping together. I never did get it choked down. Between the Liberals in Germany, UK and America as allies to the Great Allah's followers it's going to be a hard confrontation. The touchy feely Liberals in this country alone beat the worlds mightiest Army in a place called Vietnam. We have a hard row to hoe from here on. Another reason why we should have kicked ass and left.

We didn't have to make friends with every damn faction in Iraq that was slightly sympathetic or enemy of my enemy syndrom rule. They had thousands of years to correct their plight over there. We just needed to take care of business and let em crawl back in their caves. Building them hospitals and utilities isn't gonna make a damn bit of difference to our plight. American Imperialists indeed! My ass.

Brogers
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 18:08:35 (ZULU)

Pete,

It was sent back to me, tried again at the two addy's you sent me.

Marc
CV, CA, - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 18:16:44 (ZULU)

Good analysis of our enemies' forming an alliance: "...the post-9/11 grand harmonic convergence of all the world's loser ideologies, from Islamic fundamentalism to French condescension, is untroubled by anything so humdrum as reality or logic."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/11/18/do1802.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2003/11/18/ixop.html

Or click my name.

CDC'
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 18:29:05 (ZULU)

Undude/Mike,

I'm with you on the wsm, but someone else brought up a good point to me this morning. The wsm is mighty impressive on paper, the numbers are just right and it follows in the great traditions of the PPC and BR stuff I loved as a kid (short, fat and fast) but as I grew older I liked the belted stuff as much for the wincing others at the range looked at them with as much as the pain of shooting them (I wasn't kidding earlier, I like it. Sick, huh?). Accuracy is a great concern in this rifle, to keep the wife interested, as well as cost. I will probably build this myself (I'm not a pro, but I have a couple of 1/4min. rifles under my belt) for the budgetary concerns, figuring on under a grand by at least a couple of Bens, then is the issue that was brought up to me. Who makes good brass? If I do a fm or 308, I can get Norma or Lapua and work up some pretty good stuff. If I am limited to W-W, I might get 30 or 40 of a hundred that are halfway decent. This will be a biggie. I like the Idea of the wsm, but other than a few big $$$ sticks, I haven't seen any I'm impressed with. I'm not writing off your suggestion, but merely tying to justify it (it was my first choice as well!). What do the GA guys do about brass?

Robert Martin
Port St. Lousy, FL, USofA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 18:54:24 (ZULU)

Mike; I've been working with some 168's in the WSM. Results aren't bad but I'm wondering if barrel life and most pleasant recoil won't be the ruler here. Kind of like the rifle sillouette days when 7mm-08 ruled because of slight but desirable advantages. I'm talking 1k or less of course. Even thinking maybe the 7mm WSM might be worth looking at too.I just have a hard time converting away from .308 caliber bullets. Like you say, this looks like a real winner.

Brogers
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 19:12:39 (ZULU)

A question,

I understand that the substantial "bolt flex"

that occurs in the rear locking action design

of the SSG PII prohibits reloading of cases

fired in it's chamber.(Case Stretch)

I need some experienced input as a reply.

Is it really a (pardon the pun)

"a one shot deal". Neck sizing out of the question?

Thanks, Fritz

Fritz
Canton, Mi, USA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 20:08:54 (ZULU)

Fritz,

Limited exp. here. I had a rear locker for a while. accuracy was so/so to good. Reloading became expensive! Neck sizing didn't work for me, I had to trim ALOT and ended up with about 60% reusable brass after one and cases rarely lasted thru the second helping. Case head sep was a way of life for me, but I was probably doing something wrong. The way it was explained to me when I asked around was that the unchambering and ejection of the spent casing caused more damage than the actual firing. The case neck expanded and the blowback violently ripped the case out of the chamber rather than gently pulling it out and flipping it aside. Some mfgr's even go so far as to design the action to intentionally damage the case so it can't be reloaded, like some FN and AKM rifles. My rear locker was a bolt action, but I was told it still applies because of the bolt face design.

Hope it helps, better yet, hope someone else knows more!

Rob

Robert Martin
Port St. Lousy, FL, USofA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 20:29:34 (ZULU)

"Protests in Britain,etc... ", "Brit's griping about Tony Blair"

Okay -fair enuff... Tell ya what Great Britain - You give us Tony Blair and we'll let you have Ted Kennedy - hell we'll even throw in Dianne Feinstein - how's that?

OKAY - FOLKS - RAFFLE NEWS - WE'RE TURNING THE RAFFLE ON SUNDAY AFTERNOON. DONT SWEAT MISSING IT ... I WILL MAKE SURE YOU DONT MISS IT... JUST REMEMBER TO VISIT THIS DUTY ROSTER - OR AT LEAST THE SNIPERCOUNTRY HOME PAGE FOR A LINK TO THE RAFFLE ENTRY POINT....

WE'RE PRETTY CLOSE. THE PICS ARE IN FROM THE GUN BUILDERS, SANDY'S WORKING THE SITE CONTENT....

YOU WILL DEFINITELY WANT TO GET IN THIS RAFFLE...

all for now follks,

Ken Hunter

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USoA under God - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 21:03:14 (ZULU)

...good news Ken...let 'er rip !!!

...on that Brit offer....I'll vote to keep dying Ted if you give them Hillary...hell, we'll even sweeten the pot and give them Bill also !!!

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 21:46:54 (ZULU)

Bryon,

I just looked at the loopie sight and there was not mention of the vx-III m3 being discontinued in the press release section, but a lot of stuff on the new vx line.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 22:04:13 (ZULU)

On 09-22-03 and 09-23-03 Mike Tkac and his shooting buddy Jimmy Johnson from the Newington Connecticut police dept. won the Northeast Police Sniper Summit for the second time in three years, last year they finished 2nd. There were 30++ competitors and they finished first. They were using NOR-CAL PRECISION rifles. As most of you guys know Mike used to contribute to SC and we need his kind back as he has a world of knowledge to offer.

On 300WSM, the one I have shot grouped under .50 all day. Most groups where around .25 It is like shooting a 308 with 300 yards more range capability.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
CA, - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 22:34:37 (ZULU)

I've asked my guys in the gun and ammo shops here at the AMU about both the 300 Winchester and 300 Remington Short Mags and I get a high sign from them on both rounds. Both perform like "308 Improved," sending the 175 Match King on its way around 3,100 feet per second (non moly coated). The Remington works better in an AR-10. The 7mm Winchester Short Mag looks like it has a lot of promise as well.

Sinister
Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 22:51:09 (ZULU)

Hi Guys,

This will not be very well received, but lets face it. If it is a 300WM or 300WSM or any other 300MAG.. it is going to out shoot the 308 most of the time at 1000yards and on out...!

People need to admit to this issue, what is a little recoil :)

Thanks, I will crawl under the table now.........!:)

BearMan

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 23:17:39 (ZULU)

re: Pete - the Pork race

Pork is finite, space is infinite. What will you do when all the pork have been culled :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 23:32:50 (ZULU)

Robert;

If you want good accuracy and low recoil, try the .260(6.5mm in .308 case. Everything about the .308 will work but you get to use the really cool 6.5mm bullets.

If you want a Mauser action (I like Mausers, too.) it is hard to go wrong with a Swedish Mauser, either M1896 or the latter models. You can can get barreled actions from FAC and other suppliers. They come in 6.5X55 which is a great cartridge.

My winter project is going to be building a .260 1000yard F Class rifle. I wanted to use the 6.5X55 but I have a short action receiver(Savage).

LATER

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 00:08:28 (ZULU)

300 WSM: Hmmmm ... 'member me posting about LTRs in 300 WSM ... might be a cool little stick after all.

Mike Tkac/JJ. Yup, won it in fine style. I's working the range in the rain ... pure fun.

brian k. sain
Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 00:47:23 (ZULU)

Bolt- guilty of only one tactical berm shot @ 600. But that plane was lucky it was gone when I was at 1000 until Bob noticed where I'd left the power ring!

WR Moore
Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 01:24:16 (ZULU)

Nice sentiment BearMan, about the recoil. I think like that often, but the wife was nervous behind a Daisy bb gun last year. Recoil is an issue for her! I'm proud though. Most guys I know couldn't drag their wives to the range. My hat is definitely off to any women who shoot!

I like the 260 idea, but I don't know if it will carry any ass to distance. She will probably hunt africa with me with this gun, and we tend to do a lot of long range culling work when we are over there. If it were bunnies or prarie rats, I wouldn't mind the lighter load, but some of the animals we go for are 300# antelope at 500+yards. I still lean towards the wsm. Don't know about good brass yet though. Gotta research a bit....

Robert Martin
Port St. Lousy, FL, USofA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 04:19:42 (ZULU)

Just an information tid-bit..... at a recent match, this past weekend, a shooter using an out of the box savage shot a 199 13X @ 600 yds and a 200 10X at 1000 yds. The "flimsy" synthetic stock and a harrris bipod. Not bad for the often ragged on savage...do you think? FOr out of the box, i dont suppose anyone will ragged on that score.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 11:54:55 (ZULU)

Something for you high volume big bore shooters!

http://www.rvow.com/case_trim.htm

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 12:23:42 (ZULU)

Hey Guys

How do you rebarrel a Steyr SSG ?

I understand that you can cut off the barrel,counterbore the barrel stub and thread the receiver.I don't know if the receiver is swaged into a barrel groove. Comments? I have found someone that has done this before and was successful. Now I wonder if it practical to add a front recoil lug (like a Remington) when you do this.

I know with the bolt flex of the action some of you are saying.Why bother! The steyr method of removing an old barrel that they use to install the barrel with their proprietary process is damn near impossible to duplicate in reverse.

I am asking this question to get some opinions and perhaps some

actual options.

Take Care, Fritz

fritz
Canton, Mi, 48187 - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 12:28:30 (ZULU)

Fritz,

A friend of mine has an SSG and reloads for it using a neck sizing die. No problems at the moment and I think I'm right in saying his brass is on the 3rd firing. Callum Ferguson of Precision Rifle Services here in the UK offers a rebarreling service for the SSG and charges a bit extra to his normal rebarreling tariff. Try contacting him to ask what the procedure is. The web address is http://www.precisionrifles.com/ Hope your sitting down when you see his prices ;-)

Dry,

I am in self imposed exile till we get a decent rugby team. Ah, I remember the good old days......Pontypool Front Row, Barry John, J.P.R., them were the days :-(

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 14:05:40 (ZULU)

Mr Martin,

FYI Norma now makes 300 WSM brass, so you're in the tall grass! Now where am I gonna put the raffle rifle??

Seuss
PA, USA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 14:12:41 (ZULU)

Coffee is the greatest. At least as the days become one with each other...

I am receiving stockpiles of goodies. Now to re-energize the ditro plan. My customers are busy lads lately!

I met a brilliant SF Colonel last evening. He has a concept brief that is as concise an analysis of the "problem" I've yet seen or heard. I'm no slouch, but this guy was two steps ahead throughout our conversation, and I left with a headache and a reading list as long as my arm! In short, we have the thinkers to solve this; we just need generals to listen. It is open source and published...I have the digits if anyone wants a headache. Email me offline.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 15:29:34 (ZULU)

Major Joe e-mail headed your way through SC system.

Stay safe. Prayers go up daily.

Old Bill

Bill McCormick
82d Airborne, '86-'90, F/2/278 ACR now - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 15:58:47 (ZULU)

Yep, I play in the tall grass! I am an outfitter for a living now. I have a really good place for the raffle rifle...

I found out about the Norma brass last night. Just dug out a double squared BRNO 550 action last night to dust off, will probably order the barrel next week. Wife likes the 260 idea, but agrees that the wsm seems to be the way to go.

I saw a guy about three months back with an out of the box Savage shoot a 198 10x and it blew my mind. Had a "factory" McMillan with me that could do that (but what's factory about that gun?). I touched off a few rounds through his. I liked the accutrigger, but the stick itself seemed a bit loose and flimsy. Impressed as hell with the results, just not the gun. Wonder how they will hold up in the "real world" getting dragged, bumped and jostled?

Robert M. Martin
Port St. Lousy, FL, USofA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 16:05:37 (ZULU)

Robert M.

If you liked the results but not the stock, Savage makes the rifle with 3 stock combinations. The standard stock, the choate, and a Mcmillin stock. So..... no excuses.. ;)

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 16:59:35 (ZULU)

To repeat a post of a few days ago. I think we better rethink the idea that a stock had to be harder than the barrel. That Savage stock is tough because I can bend a little. There's really no basic for wrapping a barrel around a stock. As long as the pressure between the stock and barrel/bedding blocks doesn't change between stocks there's really no reason I can think of for a harder than hell stock. Again as long as there is sufficient strength not to tear holes etc. It shouldn't be a problem. Savage is awake and alive these days, and they shoot one holers with floated and aluminum pillars even though they aren't massive. A lot of old fashioned thinking was due to the fact that wood had variations of density and warp. Harder wood was better and bedding in good wood was more stable than cheap stuff. A lot of my Ruger fan mail is inspired by my critique of that cheap stock Ruger used. His Plastic ones are better as is his laminate but the use of packing crate lumber for so long is unforgivable. It was always a matter of swelling and warp changing pressure on the action and stock. A lot of this space age polymer doesn't care about temp and humidity at all. I've been taken to task for this thinking but I've tried it enough now to make a believer out of me.

Brogers
Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 17:52:15 (ZULU)

This is just too good not to share..

Joe M... this is for you.

http://www.pipelinenews.org/index.cfm?page=kay%2Ehtm

medicjim
Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 18:47:12 (ZULU)

Can you believe that the Army is holding a hearing in Tikrit to decide to court martial a LT. Col. Allen West because he threatened and discharged his sidearm during the interregation of a prisoner to get information to save the lives of American soldiers? Just read of it on the AP wire. What cr@#! Remember when in the spring two American soldiers were abducted, bodies later found in the western desert with holes in their heads? Where were the Human Rights groups then? Not one word in the papers or TV against that. But yet they're the ones pushing the media to push the Army to make a scape-goat out of Lt. Col. West. I wonder if the the Government is going to have a case of " no ball" in this insurgent siuation in Iraq. Latest stories are also saying that much of the ordinance being dropped in the Sunni Triangle is being dropped on empty buildings as a show of force with little results.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 19:01:46 (ZULU)

With the exception of Newsweek, the major media are ignoring the Weekly Standard's story of the cooperation between Al Qaeda and Sadaam. The last thing these guys want is for the American people to know that Mr Bush's actions in Iraq were and are necessary.

Newsweek reported on the story only to shoot it down. The Standard is shooting back:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/399roadd.asp

Or click my name.

Steve West: The charges against Col West are insane.

CDC'
Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 19:25:44 (ZULU)

Savage flimsy stocks;

I've had my 10FP for about 5 years now. When it was new, it wasn't rigid but it didn't touch the barrel. A few months ago, I had to replace the stock becuase it had become flimsy enough to put pressure on the barrel when shooting from a bipod.

I was shooting an F Class match and my groups were getting worse and worse. I eventully figured out the problem, but not after looking at everything else and questioning my loads, etc. Apparently the Rubbermaid plastic they use gets weakened over time.

LTC West;

There is an online petition at Patriot Petitions or something like that. It is to have the charges against LTC West dropped.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 22:57:51 (ZULU)

I am in the initial stages of building a custom hunting rifle, but also want ultimate accuracy. I would like some feedback on Christensen Arms carbon barrels. Has the .300 short mags been introduced into the sniper realm? Is it wise to build an ultralite hunting rifle in one of the .300 short mags, or is the .308 a better choice? Any ideas, suggestions, and opinions are welcome. Thanks

Jed B. Crabb
Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 23:09:20 (ZULU)

Hi Folks!

Back from Wally World, where we got a bunch of wipes, pen-lites, Chapsticks, disposable handwarmers, Slim Jims, candy, etc.

Previous balance: $211.82

Today's purchases: $169.78

Balance in Fund: $42.04

But then I got a check in the P.O. Box from Jeff Hoffman at Black Hills Ammunition.

Balance as of 20 Nov: $542.04.

You guys can do the math.

Jeff has always been someone I count as a true friend and a great human being. He has always helped me every way he could, and never wanted a nickel for his efforts. And when I casually mentioned "Goodies for the Grunts" a few days ago when talking to him about another matter, he just said "Look for a check."

This post may piss Jeff off, because he doesn't do this sort of thing for recognition. He does it out of concern and respect for our troops. But Jeff, too bad. I'm taking this opportunity to recognize one of the staunchest supporters of our craft, and of our brave men and women who are making sacrifices (too often, the ultimate one) in the sandbox.

Thanks, Jeff. Off to Albuquerque tomorrow morning to get a BIG box of jerky.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 23:52:08 (ZULU)

Rod, i'll stick with the space race untill our defence company comes up with something interesting nearer home, but maybe a little helping hand to the piggy cull contract wouldn't go amiss.

Fritz, sell the SSG and buy a Remchester before you crack the stock, rip the rail out of the stock, have miss fires, wandering groups, loose some bolt parts and a whole host of other things.

Due to the availability or short actioned stainless remingtons as apposed to long actions here at the moment and all this talk of short arsed magnums i can't help contemplating building a short arsed magnum as my stainless anti scottish shitty weather long range roe deer busting rifle, but every time i use my 308 i get pissed off with it cos the short action is such a tight little bitch with my fat fingers, its a bitch to load and unload and it gets me mad, so i'll just look out for a stainless long action put an 06 barrel on it and use that instead. I do have to admit, i am an 06 fan, but i have also bieng thinking about just sticking a stainless 308 barrel on my long action and going with the 308 for my long range roe deer, i could then have a 20"barrel, short stout and handy rifle without having to fork out for a new action, should i go 308 or 30-06. i dunno

JR start thinking about making me a border barrel, i 'll let you know the caliber (it will be 30 cal) and exact dimentions but 22" long (maybe cut to 20") sporter weight contour and fluted.. whats it gonna cost me buddy?

You all see the HBC Bank and the Brit consulate in Constantinople arrhh i mean Istanbul, i was wondering what took em so long to start this sort of shit in a few countries. This will hurt the Turks more than most folks, it will screw thier tourist industry if this becomes regular, guess this makes every pizza hut, Mc D's US or Brit embassy, bank, business, pub or fish n chip shop around the world a target.

And these pascifists lefties commies and the rest of the dregs of the british society marching in london don't realise that they are actively supporting the likes of Hussein, Pol Pot, Armein, Molosevich, Stalin and Hitler,would these sorry assed gits have marched about us going through France and the Low countries after D day kicking out the Bosch? well if they had they would have been treid for treason.

The Chaplin from the Brit consulate in Istanbul made a comment today on the news that is straight from my line of thinking. This man of the cloth had just seen death and destruction all around him and he was stead fast in his support, he said. "I am glad the the Queen has welcomed Mr Bush to Buckingham Palace and thet Mr Bush is visiting the UK, I am glad that finaly some one has had the courage to stand up against the world terrorism that has beengoing on on for at least the last 20 years"i bet the damn media don't quote him on that to often, no i bet the sods will blame Mr Bush for the car bombs in Turkey, thats like blaming the policeman when the crook steals.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 23:54:42 (ZULU)

Jody; if it changed to touch the barrel you do have a problem.

Was that one pillar bedded? I had one about that age that was not is why I asked. I have no problem with changing a stock on any rifle by the way. But if it is assumed that it won't shoot with a factory stock that may be in error.

Brogers
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 01:36:54 (ZULU)

Brogers;

It had two pillars. It was also bedded in Acra-glas. What happened was the tip of the fore end started to press up on the barrel when used on a pod.

I installed a Bell & Carlson Duramax stock. I couldn't afford any better at the time. It needed a little tweeking to fit right but not much work. I also bedded it with Acra-glas and my groups went back to like before. However, the new stock is quite a bit more comfortable to shoot and is fairly rigid.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 02:27:56 (ZULU)

Being nice to terrs doesn't work. Ask the Saudis. They were subsidizing the greasy little bastards.

A Fox correspondent claims he has info from unimpeachable sources that bin Laden and al Zawahari are in disguise and hiding in Western Iran. They are said to be under the protection of the Revolutionary Guard and in charge of terrorist operations in Iraq and elsewhere.

The Iranians are supposed to be preparing to infiltrate a large number of irregular forces into A'stan.

They are doing what they must do to survive. They have no choice.

And we have to kill them. We don't have a choice either.

CDC'
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 02:50:25 (ZULU)

Yep, I think I've seen one of those stocks. It definitely helped the feel of the whole gun. I've never had one of those rubber maid (:) funny) stocks move that much but what you describe is damn sure too much. I had a 12FP in .223 that wasn't even floated and it shot 1 hole all the time. You never know.

Oh yeah, what kind of 1k say 10shots group would you get when things were right and wind was low?

Brogers
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 02:57:46 (ZULU)

Got a new flyer from Brownell's and they're starting to offer Rem 700 short actions only! Price w/o magazine & trigger guard is $400 retail. THEIR actions DON'T have the "new, improved, firing pin safety device".

Trivia question- whats the diameter of the black on the 1000 yard NRA target???

WR Moore
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 03:34:12 (ZULU)

I normally get about a 14-16 inch groups at 1000. But thats with a 24" barrel and I suck. Need more practice! I'm shooting a 175gr SMK at around 2725fps. I use 35 moa of elevation.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 04:10:13 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

>>Trivia question- whats the diameter of the black on the 1000 yard NRA target???<<

44"

What do I win???

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 06:19:15 (ZULU)

Howdy neighbours,

Right, well, this is me last full day in the UK for a fortnight or so..Leavin on a jet plane tomorrow, for the Northern Plains..and bless the big guy in the sky, looks like he's sendin a winter storm to greet me in SoDak..

So, you guys be good for now..We'll catch ya on the backflip..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 06:38:19 (ZULU)

JC- a hearty thank you, good sir :-)))) I had to use the bottom post of my mildot reticle as a front sight to get in the 10 ring with a repeatable sight picture. Now I can refigure things to put the bullet right at the top of the post. Also pricing tapered mounts-just hate, really hate, to disturb a sweetly centered mounting.

WR Moore
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 07:06:27 (ZULU)

Bruce: Tell Jeff that I just converted to Black Hills ammo for all my shooting needs! I used to alternate with FGM and BH; because Black Hills is scarce and sometimes it is convenient to just grab FGM and go home. To hell with that; from now on I will walk the extra mile for the Black Hills brand. Their stuff actually shoots better in my SPR anyway. I just have to go to the twin cities to find it.

Sweetie: Send me an email directly joe(dot)b(dot)mahon (AT) us(dot)army(dot) mil. The link up through SC mail causes me to bounce return mail. Unless you got it anyway---in which case let me know that too. Now let the nigerians offer me some money...

Flexible Fore ends: I don't care how tight a rifle may group on a bench at 100 yds; if the stock moves, consistancy cannot be counted on. If you fire it off a ruck and obtain a nice group, then move to a bipod--it will shift if the fore end contacts the barrel. At 100 yards, you may not notice much deflection...but at 600 yds, well...I guess you could always hope the change in POI is consistantly changed and just have data for each type of rest you are likely to use. Or you could buy a solid stock and skip all that. Dunno bout youz, but I know what I'd do.

300WSM: Keep on providing observations on this cartridge. It seems to have the potential---remains to be seen if it can live up to it. I'd be reluctant to go with a mag-fed until someone nails down the OAL; inquiring minds want to know---will this eclipse the 300WM?

I sent out four copies of the good SF Colonel's dissertation (GW University). A good read. When he gave it to me, I asked specifically if he'd mind If I shared it here. He wants it read, far and wide, so he agreed. It is two word documents, a summary page and the paper itself, totalling 16 pages. The premise is operational control by SOF once linear battle gives way to assymetrical battle. I think he's brilliant on two counts; first, he agrees with me, and second: I could never get this far in the weeds. Anyone else interested, hit me offline.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 08:26:38 (ZULU)

Hear dthe same about leupold. Got my info from an E-mail from Midway haven't seen or heard anywhere else though. They did start the rifleman series So who knows may have to make a call.

Durand Wilson
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 12:24:55 (ZULU)

CDC',

Al-Qaeda in charge of terrorist operations in Iraq? Highly unlikely that the mullahs of Persia would put a bunch of wahabbi's in charge of anything. As you know, there's no love lost between them.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 12:52:20 (ZULU)

If you decide to stick with a stock stock (ha), when you bed it, put extra bedding material ahead of the lug. Take the sling swivel pin out of the original hole at the front of the forearm, drill a hole into the bedding glass, after it cures, and re-install the swivel into that. That accomplishes two things. It lessens the bending moment (arm) on the forearm, and it changes the axis if you need to swivel the barrel to get on another target quickly. Your forearm need never have enough pressure on it after that to contact the barrel. The Howa has what apperas to be a Ramline stock that came with it. The forearm is now mostly for cradling it when walking, as it has almost no pressure on it while shooting.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 14:45:43 (ZULU)

**** Candidates Confused on Gun Ban ****

>>>>No sh**!<<<<

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103454,00.html

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 16:12:27 (ZULU)

Don K: "Al-Qaeda in charge of terrorist operations in Iraq? Highly unlikely that the mullahs of Persia would put a bunch of wahabbi's in charge of anything. As you know, there's no love lost between them."

It's not a matter of love. It's a practical necessity. If we win in Iraq, the Iranian mullahs die. The only way they can drive us out of Iraq is by putting American casualties on American television. Al Qaeda can provide cannon fodder and convenient fall guys. If we leave, the Mullahs' power and prestiege are both at all time highs. The revolution that has fizzled for the last 20+ years is on again, but this time there would be no Iraq to balance their power. Toss in a victory over an abjectly humiliated "Great Satan" and they're looking at a real sweet upside.

They'll use al Qaeda then sort out their differences later. They have no other choice. History is full of similar alliances.

CDC'
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 17:35:35 (ZULU)

CDC',

Agreed, there have been some strange alliances in history and I have no doubt the mullahs would/will use Al-Qaeda to their advantage against the Great Satan due to their precarious position regarding the failure of the Iranian Revolution, but put Al-Qaeda in charge, NEVER! BTW, good to see you back with your links to good news stories.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 19:08:25 (ZULU)

Did ya' ever wonder....within the law, who is responsible for the common defense of the US?

Title 10 USC. Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under

45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United

States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard

and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of

the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the

Naval Militia.

medicjim
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 19:50:15 (ZULU)

Theres a little town in Kansas called Geuda Springs wich just passed a law a la Kennesaw where the head of each household has have a firearm and ammo available.Thats a good thing Martha.The world aint totally crazy,yet.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 20:34:49 (ZULU)

What is the most accurate .300 Win Mag out there

for the $? Remember it is YOUR opinion. I cannot

be judgemental. Just want a number of educated comments.

Last weekend was a humbling process @300 meters.

My buddy had a custom .308 tactical rifle and was

put to shame by a Factory Savage (With an accu-trigger).

a 1.2" c/c group. So I will Never say- A What?

Comments?

fritz
Canton, Mi, USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 20:40:24 (ZULU)

Hi. Folks!

Back from Albuquerque with 300 one-ounce bags of jerky in assorted flavors. Guy came in while Art and I were packing it, and bought a one-ounce bag at retail for $2.38. Art sells to us for $1.20, and is proud to do so.

Joe, if any of your recipients have access to Email, they might drop him a Thank-You at:

www.jerkybyart.com

I'm sure it would give him a kick.

Fund now stands at $182.04. Back to Wally World.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 20:44:35 (ZULU)

medicjim,

The militia comment is good news, but, it can be a worry as well. Theres a militia around here that smells, reeks of the lets build bomb shelters and put up swatstikas, has very pro racist ideas. Kinda makes you wonder about the militia idea. On a camping excursion in the blue ridge mountains there was a group of militia that was play patroling and they were carrying ARs with live ammo, in June. Didnt help the kids sleep that night.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Friday, November 21, 2003, at 21:58:35 (ZULU)

Jody; natta. I've done 1 moa but more often about 2 is more likely with this 20" of mine and this wind I inherited. You ain't doin bad.

Militia

Let;s keep in mind that insurgents, fanatics, and hate groups are not militia as authorized by our constitution and are therefore outlaws although they are members of the population. Groups that advocate the overthrow of our system that authorizes them are in a different class. There was an attempt to demonize the term Militia by media and anti-gunners that still goes on. It is important to identify the difference when it comes up.

Brogers
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 23:28:06 (ZULU)

I noticed in several of the recent posts that some of you check your weather reports on Weather Bug. Not to cause any alarm but I hope you realize that once it is installed on your PC it reports back to its origin all the websites you visit....they claim it is for gathering marketing and demographics information...maybe it is...so why are they so sneaky about it and why don't they tell you up front....Can you say Big Brother? I also don't sign up for any of those shopping or grocery store discount cards ...more information gathering about your habits. A little paranoid? Maybe that comes from having most of my relatives killed off by the communists during the Communist Revolution in China.

Gerry

Gerry Chao
Friday, November 21, 2003, at 23:55:24 (ZULU)

In over 20 years of Law Enforcement, I have seen more people maimed and killed by drunk drivers than I have those injured or killed by firearms. So...according to this suit that has been brought back for trial, I personally think that everyone that has been involved in an accident with a person with multiple DUI's, and other traffic offenses, that we should sue the car industry!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/20/gun.lawsuits.ap/index.html

Major Joe Sir!

The colonel is one smart cookie, although if I read it right, there is no way that under our present C(3) system that the Pentagon would ever allow something like that to happen. Too much common sense involved in the plan to implement it!!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 01:52:48 (ZULU)

Guys, I just have to rant. Major Joe Mahon has offered us juicy, inside information from a knowledgable source (an SF Colonel)on how to win the war on terrorism and ONLY FOUR PEOPLE asked for copies???? What the hell is wrong with you guys? Every day, somebody on this forum is ranting about how important it is to fight this war and WIN. What do you think is going to make that happen -- your hot air?

Such minimal interest in good information strikes me as pathetic and passive. It's also completely unacceptable. Every last one of you should get this Colonel's report, digest it, send it to your elected officials and demand that his ideas be implemented. Saying that "it makes too much sense for the military to do it" is just defeatist. (Sorry, Bobby, but I just can't let that slide.)

If the whiners and losers can hold protests in the streets and get attention, we should be able to do at least as well with decent ideas. So get off your duffs, get a copy of the report and USE IT!!!

Everybody makes the time to contribute to this forum. It should be equally important to you to put in a little time to convince your neighbor or Congressman that this cause is just and can be won? Trust me, you can. If you really think you can't, you'll have nobody but yourselves to blame when the polls show waning support for the war. After all, did you do what you could to let your leaders know what their priorities should be and how they should be achieved?

As our President says, "Everybody can do something." Get out there and do it!

Sweetie

P.S. to Tuesday, wife of Robert Martin: I can understand being upset by the recoil on a 5.5 lb. 30-06. But I'd really be tempted to whack him upside with a cast iron skillet for broadcasting your vital statistics on this site. Sheesh! Welcome and happy shooting.

Sweetie
Sheeple's Republic of, MD, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 02:36:04 (ZULU)

Sweetie, thanks for the reminder. I just got off my duff and emailed the major for a copy.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 03:08:37 (ZULU)

Sweetie,

Good to see you posting again, and doubly good to see you indignant!

If folks here don't get up on their hind legs and squawk, we ain't doin' a good job!

In fairness, though (damn, I hate being fair.........being an SOB is a lot more fun!), I would think that Joe sent those files to only four people that he figured would pass them on, and did not do a mass distribution because of the large size of the files. It's up to others to request them. I have had, in the past, to break down files into segments in order to get them into some folks' mailboxes. And Joe is nothing if not considerate.

But I agree wholeheartedly with you....there should be a massive request for these articles. A good read.

Anybody wants them, hit Joe, or me.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 03:15:22 (ZULU)

I have the SF Colonel's files as well, I have not read the dissertation yet but fully intend to this weekend. I would be glad to shoot them someones way if they would care to read it.

drmarc

drmarc@se-tel.com

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 03:57:08 (ZULU)

<<<Guys, I just have to rant. Major Joe Mahon has offered us juicy, inside information from a knowledgable source (an SF Colonel)on how to win the war on terrorism and ONLY FOUR PEOPLE asked for copies???? What the hell is wrong with you guys?>>>

Hey, Sweetie Pie! Maybe more than four have requested it but used the SC delivery system and got shot down. Joe mentioned about problems he has with it.

But he also just gave us >>joe(dot)b(dot)mahon(AT)us(dot)army(dot)mil<< as an alternative addy. I used both and look forward to some good reading!

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 04:11:40 (ZULU)

Bruce, Please tell your wife thank you for the nice card. I am also going to buy only Black Hills Match ammo from now on.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 04:24:08 (ZULU)

Sweetie; gimmie time gimmie time! Gees. :) I'm all eyes! JOe I'll get it from Bruce or Demarc cause I sure am interested. Sweeeetie I'll deal with you later. :)

Brogers
Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 04:27:58 (ZULU)

Isn't that just like a woman. Bi#chin about "only 4" folks requesting the info. Seems the offer said "off line".....

Just kiddin darlin... I too, asked for & received my copy in private mail with Major Claus. Already copied numerous times over for distribution on my end.

Keep up the good eagle eye on us Sweetie.

Mildot Bruce, incoming snailmail.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K town, WI, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 04:44:20 (ZULU)

Medicjim: Awwww, man! You done screwed up the liberals' best argument on gun control through the defining of the second ammendment. Now what they gunna do?

Bobby's right; on the psychology aspect at least. The type-A's will feel marginalized; even though the battalion level command (and up) will actually be doing the critical task of applying the matrix in a cultural-tribal-economic zone (as applicable) instead of conducting the fight in terrain oriented zones as they are now (terrain equated to force structure, old tried and true ways to fight). This is the tough pill to swallow. Letting two captains run ops based on the prioritization of resources from higher echelons is a leap of faith we may not be ready for in and of itself. On the other hand, we are making similar mistakes from an earlier UW scenario we all know and love to debate--AND WE KNOW IT. Like lemmings, we march onward...repeating a failed history. Our structure, our doctrine for C2, our definition of battle space all conspire to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. And we react as we are trained. Our reactions are reminiscent of the past; we see that. The institutional base is driving this train, and only a slap in the face will change the path. Many levels of the NCA must re-think the application of force. A bold shift now will pay dividends. But even a few recalcitrants can derail success. Psychology is a critical component, and a challenging one. But it can be done. Phase in orientation of the battle space, sell it hard, then slowly adapt forces to the new problem. Let the type-As "discover the applied force solutions" on their own; by letting them invent the solution--the psychology sells itself. Do not look at this paper as a restructuring initiative, look at it as a phased shift in thinking...and it could be possible. In small steps...redefining the battle space may be all we need to get the ball rolling. The sad part is this is not new or particularly original work. But it does alter how we think militarily; and that is the classic old dog, new trick cliche.

The bottom line is this: Like it or not, we are rushing head long into a war of attrition. Some of you out there know first-hand where this leads. In order to become proactive, we absolutely must apply our lessons learned, we must adapt our overall strategies to the problem---because we see every day that the problem will not adapt to our current methodology. And forgoshsakes, some in uniform are still debating whether or not we are in a guerrilla war. OK, so how many of us took mortar training in shop class? 122 rockets? Now there is a common skill on the job market....grrrr.

Sweetie: I musta sent out two dozen attachments today. Yihaa! Did ya get yours?

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 08:12:26 (ZULU)

One bright spot in all this is of pointed interest to us; our snipers are integrating into the fight at all levels. Designated marksman programs validated their concept, and the new Chief has taken the first step towards more range time for all.

These are things we've debated here....and the great and good changes may get lost in the fury of other debates.

Good on ya, riflemen!

Also, we may arrive at the endstate all by ourselves--or in spite of ourselves, through sheer guts and determination of our gen-x/y kids. Let's not forget to acknowledge the shining examples present for duty today---these are the same kids we all wondered if they would have what it takes to carry America forward. From my perspective, we will be in good hands.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 08:22:20 (ZULU)

OOOWWWCH, Thanks for swift kick in the rear Sweetie, email sent!

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Tx, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 12:49:38 (ZULU)

Gretings from the mountains guys{and gals}

It's the finest time of year! The weekend before firearms deer season! It opens Monday.

Necks are all swollen, camo abounds, and zeros are being checked; even it is just bustng an oil can on a fence post..Schools are closed all next week {you gota love it} and many a kid will, hopefully, get their first buck and be hooked for life.

The new Dakota 10, .250-3000, has been performing admirably and we have it on good authority {Rod} that the first buck taken with it will be a whopper...We'll see.

Safe and pleasant outings to you all.

outa here

Markwell
The Alleghenies, WV, - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 13:10:27 (ZULU)

Hogs -RAFFLE STATUS...

Folks - be sure to check the roster -or at least the snipercountry home page for a banner entry into the rifle raffle. We'll be kicking it off sometime tomorrow (sunday) afternoon.....

We'll keep it open until we hit the 500 tix mark... There are two rifles up for grabs.

1. Chandler Super Grade Sniper complete Weapon system. All you need is boolets

2. G.A. Precision 'Rock Rifle. This is Sniper Country Limited Edition Serial number 2 - as in one of two left.....

Two ticket holders will definitely have additional happiness for their Christmas.

Raffle tickets are 25.00 each.....

More tomorrow afternoon.....

Ken out.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 14:04:08 (ZULU)

Wahabbi & Shia look at each other like Irish Catholics & Protestants. Their getting together is VERY unlikely.

On the other hand, knew a guy with many years training experience in the middle east. BAck in '88/89 he was commenting on the willingness to die for Allah being inversely proportional to the distance from Mecca/Medina. He said (then) that the chances of such attacks over here was slim to none. He lives about 70 miles away now, I haven't had the heart to try to call him up for his revised view.

WR Moore
Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 14:32:56 (ZULU)

Gents!

Just got back in from Milipol in Paris. Its a major trade show for Military and Police. What an ordeal. First time I've been an exhibitor at one of these things. Shit will wear you out.

Anyway. Seen a lot of good stuff over there. CZ actually has a pretty hot sniper rifle. Interesting they showed it with a M3LR and Badger Rings not a Euro scope. Most memorable experience was getting a picture with the Taser chicks. Black leather and tasers......

Before going over there I had the honor to hang out at the Army sniper competition at Benning. Best part of that trip was hanging with Sinister Dave who is the best thing to happen to AMU and the Army Marksmanship program since Lones Wigger. Its god to see a Field grade with Balls and Knowledge in charge of something. I'm sure he wont make a lot of friends at Benning when he gets rolling but the soldiers will be better off.

The snipers at the match would have made you guys real proud. The youth of America and not so youthful too...are good to go. I ran into one of my former USMC students from 1984 shooting for the Air National Guard.

You guys in military and Police units need to see this Sniper Training System I am working with. Its a bit pricey so I wouldnt think a private individual would be interested. Wish I would have had it when teaching and working as a sniper. Imagine interactive dry firing with all of the enviromental variables being taken into account, distance, wind, temp, altitude etc. The system uses the Sierra Infinity Ballistics program as its brain so you can input custom bullet info and train with your data. Targets are scaled to reperesent tgts from 340 to around 800 meters and you can make your own tgts using a digital camera. This aint a sales pitch just letting you know about some cool shit.

Had an interesting conversation with an Algerian taxi driver in Paris. The Islamic world aint as supportive of the fundamentalists as a lot of us think. It appears that the fundamentalists are using recruiting techniques similar to our home grown gangs. "Join us or we'll fuck you up." I think the ultimate solution will have to be the Islamic world policing thier own. Turkey looks like a great place to start. We need to back Turkey BIG TIME.

ANYWAY. Its good to be home.

Out here.

Gooch
BumFuck, AR, US of A - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 14:36:55 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers..

Quote:

"Militia

Brogers "

Right on brother.....the demonization of the term, has caused us all to walk softly, and not tell it like it is.....

We are ALL Militia members, every one of us, still able bodied, NO matter the age.( if we are not currently serving).

WE have been brainwashed, if we have, what chance do the totally ignorant have.

medicjim thanks for the post, and Lindy on the Const issue...

Terry

Two Shoes
Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 15:06:10 (ZULU)

John Markwell,

I dropped you an e-mail but not sure if you got it. I was wondering if you would be holding ASC#3? I was told that you weren't going to have it this year and thought I'd ask you. Hopefully this isn't true as the ASC is a great match and the dinner on Saturday night is almost as much fun as the shooting. Thanks.

Rob

Rob01
Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 15:07:30 (ZULU)

Pete L. Thanks for the info on the M-14 mag conversion, I'll find the info and call them, but I'm not too keen on sending my LTR "over there". If anyone has machine drawings of this conversion or pics, I'd still like to get my hands on them.

Pete, as for Wild Hog, It is pretty much open season on them here in Florida. I killed one in my deer food plot last week. I'm not putting out hundreds of pounds of corn to feed hogs. They really can do alot of damage. Got her in the freezer now. As for Leupy Rings on my hunting rifles...I don't mind them on a plain jane remmy or winny in a wood stock. The lease I'm on is "rugged" as it doubles as our Jeep club lease, but I can drive my Jeep very near my stand, so I don't have alot of cross county hiking to do with my rifle. I don't hunt with my LTR, PSS or Custom .300 WM...I probably should though. I still tend to hunt "redneck style" out of a blind over a food plot.

Cory

Cory Wilson
Panama City, Fl, USA! - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 15:14:40 (ZULU)

Gooch, Welcome back. Sounds like a great trip. Next time you are in Benning, give me a holler and I can run up and meet an greet with you. I have property in Arkasas too (Ozark) and bounce back and forth 'tween here and there too. Should be making a run up with the next three or 4 weeks. You'd be welcome out to the place to shoot, have 70 acres and a mountain for a backstop! Well, maybe just a really big ass hill, I'm from Florida, what do I know. I've been salting the place as a lead mine for years.

Cory

Cory Wilson
Panama City, Fl, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 15:25:33 (ZULU)

Just got to brag on the wife a little bit today. Today is opening day for deer gun season here in Oklahoma and she decided that she wanted to go hunting. This is the results:

http://www.badlandstactical.net/Zhunt.htm

Not too bad for first timer, and especially considering that she shot the deer at 400 yards!

Sorry about the off topic, but dang it, I just feel like bragging on her!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 18:30:21 (ZULU)

Bobby,

Don't blame you a bit for bragging. Nice deer. Considering the teacher she had, I'm somehow not surprised. ;o)

Major Joe,

Thanks for the SF Colonel's dissertation. He's one smart dude. Had to look up a whole bunch of his words in the dictionary. He sure makes a lot of sense. Hope some bigwig picks up on the ideas.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 19:11:15 (ZULU)

Mr Whittington, Sir:

You gotta be proud. Please convey my heartiest congratulations to your wife, and pass on my father's words to me after I got my first deer:

"You're ruint now!" (That's Suthrin Past Tense of "to ruin")

To All:

Sincerest thanks from the Child Bride and me. She got to pack up two boxes last night and I had the distinct pleasure of sending them off to Major Santa this morning. One at 28 lbs., one at 48 lbs., over $800.00 worth of goodies, plus a mess of handmade Christmas cards from school kids and 60 one-hour prepaid phone cards.

You should all give yourselves a big hand. We could not do this without your support. And many of you are sending your own packages. Joe should be swamped, and Martha would call that "a good thing!"

Sorry this update is a bit late, but CB's Momma is out for a two-week visit (she's making the dressing for Thanksgiving!) and the two of them had the 'puter tied up listening to a live feed from a Knoxville radio station, since we couldn't get the UT-Vanderbilt game off the dish.

To all who requested the articles from Joe: Next order of business.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 21:52:56 (ZULU)

Hi Guys -- thanks for responding to my rant in such a positive way. I was afraid that, being a newbie, I would ruffle some feathers and make myself unwelcome. You are really good sports! A little whacked sometimes, but that's a good thing.

To Bobby: send my mega congrats to your wife on her first buck! I hope the tenderloins are in good shape and you enjoy them gently sauteed with garlic.

Major Joe: I got your emails -- many thanks! Does this mean I can postpone housework until I get all my required reading done?

Carry on,

Sweetie
MD, USA - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 01:53:53 (ZULU)

Steve S - The US militia formed in the 1700s to free this nation. When the fight was over, they went home and made the US what it is today, a free, prosperous and peace loving nation.

Hate groups and the like seek to HIDE behind the deeds of brave men. That is why they call themsleves noble names and roll themselves in the flag, like a child holding the hem of mommy's skirt.

medicjim
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 02:52:07 (ZULU)

drmarc,

e-mail on the way.

clean. N/A.

Spud

Dennis
merced, KA, usa - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 02:58:01 (ZULU)

Right back at ya Spud! :)

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 03:04:02 (ZULU)

John Acehigh,

Where are you?

If you get some time, send me an E-Mail. I would like to know how things are going. Also, how is that range working out for you up North!?

Talk to you later,

BearMan :)

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 05:05:34 (ZULU)

Comment on the SF Col's files.......

Unfortunately I agree with his assessment 100%.

The reason it is unfortunate, is, that this IS going to be a fact of life for all of us..from here on out.

We all know how to keep a small fire from getting out of control, the key, is to be vigilant over the small fire.

If we are not, it can run wild in a heartbeat..

Same analogy here.........

I personally think, this is the ONLY way to keep this never ending threat at bay, we will never fully control it.

But, we have to limit it's ability to do harm....

Like the Col said, the "THREAT MATRIX", has to be identified, and appropriate action/s taken..quickly.

Also, I see this as being a real problem getting through the powers that be...it makes too much sense.....

Maybe I am wrong this time, I hope so.

Dos Zap

Terry
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 05:24:35 (ZULU)

Gents:

Distro so far with the new packages:

5th SFG(A)- large box of a mix...lotsa jerky and snuff, weapon cleaning supplies and wipes.

82d ABN: Mailed a smaller box of the same mix to their forward base. Bruce, now we're both providing postage! The official mail channels (free) uses the supply chain to move boxes---not good! So paying mail assures delivery to the target. Better.

I still have one good sized box for some lucky unit...

MK4: Recv'd box, with books. Added the goodies to the mix-boxes, will send books to Camp Victory for the library there. BTW, the libraries at Udari, Virginia and Victory were largely built by this crew. In fact, we established them...the Red Cross jumped on board after the fact!

Good on ya, Duty Roster!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 08:34:45 (ZULU)

All:

Our own Ken Hunter built me a computer recently, as my old one was terminal (How d'ya like that pun!)

In the course of the back-and-forth, I incurred some charges....labor, shipping and such.

Got an Email from Ken today with the invoice. He directed me to apply the entire charge for his labor to the "Goodies for the Grunts" fund.

We stand at $282.04 now, ladies and gentlemen.

You folks are OK. Child Bride has a big grin. So do I.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 16:42:40 (ZULU)

LOng time lurker and VERY infrequent poster.

I hav efinally decided to finish my long range rifle. I am using my old M1a. Its a built Armscor gun that shoots better than I do. I already have a Swan mount for it. I have one of the early Tasco SS 10x scopes that has worked well so far. I has the scope mounted in cheap rings in a ARMS throw lever mount. I have finally decide dto bite the bullet and ge tthe thing mounted right. I need to know fromt he roster what rings to get? Badger, Smith, Luepold tactical? Nad what height to have the rear objective clear the NM sight.

Thanks in advance for all the help.

Hasher

Hasher
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 17:45:06 (ZULU)

Militia's

It is nice to see a discussion of the embodyment of "militia's" within our histroical document called the "Constitution". It still is a puzzle to me to have the general masses not understand that they are of this "group" and have the duty and obligation to perform task associated with keeping this country as a representive Republic. Need I remind every one that we are not a "democracy" even though we are proceeding twords being one. A "democracy" is majority rule not matter what, wheras a reprsentive "republic" is one where we rely upon our representatives to do the right, just and moral things which allow us all to exist within our God given rights.

The demonization of Militia's is well documented but also accepted within our community since no one dare suggest that they follow the oath they took "to defend the Constitution against all enemy's foreign and domestic" when it comes to the "domestic" part. It is easy to "see" our enemies when they are "foreign" but most of the collective "us" do not want to deal with the "domestic". It will be the hardest decision for each of us to make when "domestic tyrants" push "us" into thegates of the Gulag. Then and only then will we understand why we have a 2nd Ammendment, militia's, and have taken the "oath". IF the collective "us" do not get this point then you might as well take all of those fancy collections of guns and turn them into pad locks and chains because history is set to repeat itself.

Mule

Mule
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 18:01:47 (ZULU)

My wife told this joke to me:

A man walks into a grocery store, and as he passes a cashier said,"your barracks is open"

Puzzled by the term he continues to shop until a guy tells him "your fly is open".

He zips up and continues shopping. When he is through he decides to have a little fun with the cashier.

He goes through her line, and as she is ringing up his purchases, he says "so did you see a soldier standing at attention in the barracks"?

She responds "No, just an old tired veteran sitting on two wore-out duffel bags".

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 19:01:14 (ZULU)

OKAY HAWGS -- THE RAFFLE IS ON....

HERE'S WHAT TO DO - IF YOU'RE INTERESTED:

1. click on my name or go to the snipercountry home page and click on the raffle banner....

2. Read the rules,

3. register for your tix... You will get a ticket confirmation with ticket numbers from me.

4. Sit back, encourage your buds to buy tickets...

5. the goal is 500 tickets.. there are two rifles up for grabs.

6. Folks - I would like to get the rifles in the winner's hands before Christmas.

7. 4 prizes so far up for grabs: The Chandler Sniper, The GA Precision Rock SCLE Number 2, a Mildot master, and a Tactical Intervention sling....

take care and good luck!!!

Ken Hunter

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA UnderGod - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 20:25:38 (ZULU)

Those are a couple of sweet lookin rifles! :)

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 20:30:56 (ZULU)

Yeah, two very nice riffles...which will I chose when my ticket gets drawn?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 20:48:32 (ZULU)

Got my tics reserved and ready to make my annual donation for the cause.

I would like to sweeten the pot by adding a custom built 8' telescoping flipping stick (fishing rod for those of you that don't fish!) to put in the raffle prizes. Rod is built on a G.Loomis FS966X graphite blank using black EVA grips, Fuji reel seat, Fuji guides and top. Guides are wrapped in burgandy with gold trim. If I was selling the rod the price would be $160.00 + tax and shipping. Will make pics available to Ken as soon as I can.

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 20:53:29 (ZULU)

Ok perhaps I am stupis but what banner/

Hasher

BTW put me down for one ticket.

Hasher
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 21:16:14 (ZULU)

Wow! What a deal. If I buy two tickets I can either hook 'em or shoot 'em! ;o) I do love this place.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cold and rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 21:17:42 (ZULU)

Hasher wrote -

>>I hav efinally decided to finish my long range rifle. I am using my old M1a.<<

oh shit............

>>I already have a Swan mount for it.<<

Dump it and get a Smith. Or a Brookfield if you can find one.

>>I have one of the early Tasco SS 10x scopes that has worked well so far.<<

OK, but save your pennies and get a Loopy.

>>I has the scope mounted in cheap rings in a ARMS throw lever mount.

Dump the extra mount (one less variable to worry about) and mount some GOOD (Badger, Loopy MK4) medium or high rings right to the Smith base.

>>Thanks in advance for all the help.<<

Your welcome! I wonder if anybody else will answer? :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 21:22:08 (ZULU)

Moe Thanks for the reply.

Let me say a couple of things here.

First I did find the raffle page. Man I need to learn to navigate this site better.

Second I saw you wrote "oh shit" regarding the rifle. I know I really need a good bolt gun for long range shooting. I hav esomthing more like a Designated Marksmans rifle in mind. Eventually I will build (or have George build me) a real long range rig.

I am curious though, the mount is an ARMS mount. It has a small Swan logo on it and I thought it was what I wanted when I got it like 8 years ago. Its steel, and the mount seems solid what with the bolt in the side of the reciever and the thing in the stripper clip slot.

The gun was built by Dale Mitchell in Kansas City. Built a lot of guns for the guys there and several of them have gone Distinguished with the guns he has built.

I do plan on replacing the barrel either when funds allow or when this one starts loosing its accuracy.

I agree that a Loopy would be a better scope but I already have the Tasco (bought before I knew the score) and it has held up well so far. When funds allow it will be replaced.

It is in a fat walnut stock and bedded in tight. heck I can barely get it out of the stock. For this kind of shooting I know it really needs a McMillan but then again that is several hundred more $$$.

My idea is to get it up and running by getting the right rings and learning to shoot the darn thing with glass on it. While I am doing that I can either upgrade any necessary components or simply get another rifle.

Oh and getting myself down to Badlands for some instruction is also in the works.

I have learned a lot listening to you guys and value all of your opinoins highly.

hasher

Hasher
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 21:36:53 (ZULU)

Get the current mount tested for movement with a dial indicator. Clamp the piece in a LARGE, SOLID vise and put an indicator on the barrel, reading possible movement in the mount. Try to wiggle the mount-but don't get ridiculous with the pressure. If it moves, you need a different-read Smith-mount.

Take a real close look at Smith's rings. They're solid and come with reducers to 1" so you only have to buy one set of good rings.

Search Smith Enterprises.

WR Moore
Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 22:27:30 (ZULU)

Hogs raffle status -- check the count - 72 ticks down range... It's lookin like this one will move fast...

Tell your fellow hawgs... get on there and register foryour tickets....

BOLT: thanks for sweetening the pot... We'll add yer prize to the list... Your lucky recipient will be the holder of ticket number 5.

thanks so much!!!!

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Under God - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 00:37:59 (ZULU)

Hey Guys,

Just a comment. Look at the archives around Mid 2000.Then read them now.What happened? Today it sounds like a convention of ranting "Walter Mitty" clones. pontificating on political issues,training strategies and solving the worlds problems, et.al. It appears to have become an e-mail addicts chit-chat room. Not all of it but probably 80%.Give it a rest. What was the first sentence in the rules of engagement? I don't think we have been true to it! I know this is going to bring "smoke" down on me but enough already!

Fritz

Fritz
Canton, Mi, USA - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 01:09:06 (ZULU)

I guess there are lots of us trying to register for the tickets at one time. I keep trying and it seems to be frozen in some way. After a delay the screen blinks out and a message of "web system busy" appears. Keep trying guys, somebody has to take second place :)

Marc
CV, CA, - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 01:16:28 (ZULU)

Ken,

Rifle raffle kept kicking my registration out with a "Front Page Error, notify webmaster" message.

'Course last thing I won was the 1970 draft lottery, so maybe this is a message.

WR Moore
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 01:55:15 (ZULU)

OK guys, I was going to buy 4 tickets for the raffle. I decided to buy 2 and send the other $50 to Bruce and his "Child Bride" for the Goodies for Grunts program. I won't win a rifle anyway, so at least this way I'll feel good about the other half of the money.

Anybody else care to step up and show this dumb ol' firefighter how to do this shit?

Be Safe my friends,

Flattop

Flattop
Lost in a state of , confusion, USA - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 02:51:41 (ZULU)

Fritzie; I've been here since 96 and it hasn't been pure or reverant anytime I can remember. We have had our share of folks who want to Baptise us all in Hoppes 9 so they can have the site molded to their doctrine. Too bad you weren't here to keep us on the path to righteousness. Fagadabout it. Read em and weap.

Brogers
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 04:38:36 (ZULU)

Heeeeeeyyyy men. Do those rifles look hot or what?

B'lieve I'll take the Chandler this trip. Sweet.

brian k. sain
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 04:39:19 (ZULU)

BK,

Child Bride has her eye on that Chandler. Careful.

Flattop,

You're golden, my friend. CB and I will put the $50 to good use!

brogers,

What the heck is wrong with a #9 baptism??

When CB is feeling frisky, she just puts a touch behind each ear.

But what you said to Fritz...........Yeah.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 04:50:29 (ZULU)

May have to bring my dancin' shoes to SHOT if she wins ... cut some kinda deal or somfin'.

brian k. sain
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 05:45:49 (ZULU)

Ken,

Been trying to register for a few hours now. It either says front page error or web busy. ?

Marc
CV , CA, - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 06:01:01 (ZULU)

Bill Wrote:

>>'Course last thing I won was the 1970 draft lottery, so maybe this is a message.<<

And now my keyboard is toast--I spit coffee all over the place!

Easy now, Brian. You're messing with a saint...

The DR has degenrated into a chatroom? Say it ain't so! Awww man, and to think I actually thought I learned stuff here....

I like the forum...politics and all. The shooting stuff comes out in the wash, and it is a better place for all the rest. IMHO.

M1A: I got one, and I love it. Love is all that keeps it around; it doesn't stay accurate for long and eats time and money to return to form about every year or so. The mount cannot be a variable with this weapon. Too many others' to chase to worry about the scope axis shifting. You'll see. And every time you check how tight that bedding is, the less tight it becomes. Plan on a re-do soon. If the army hadn't trained me on it, I'd never bothered...but like I said, it is a labor of love. Period. Unless you love the damn thing---move on. It'll save sanity in the long run.

I started to go for 4 tickets, but then thought, "what about all the lurkers and semi-posters..." Can't be greedy.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 11:29:28 (ZULU)

Hogs - raffle statuts. 137 tix so far...

Registration problems - sorry about that... My mail filter engine is acting up. I disabled it for now... so those of you that get mail via my mailserver - will be able to once again - see those porn emails that you registered for - LOL.....

Anyhow... Please let me know if you can't register...I will take a look at it... And will ask you to try again. The registry stuff comes in formatted a certain way for the raffle database....

thanks all and get them tix registered.... the target is 500, and 2 rifles - before Christmas....

take care, God Bless all....

Ken

ken hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 12:27:50 (ZULU)

MAJOR JOE: Roger that sir.

Check my last name Major ... just one letter shy of SAINthood myself. lol

But ... me and Child Bride got a date in Vegas (Mildot Master approved).

I think another SHOT SHOW tabledance might just put me over the top! ... but I'll probably try to behave myself this year and act professional ...

I hear you thinking Bruce Robinson ... Professional! That little white trash fella? Rrrrrrriiigght.

Damn. Truth hurts, heh heh.

Gonna win me one badass, Johnnie Real Deal, Chandler Sniper Rifle though ... WooHoo!

I'll put that bad boy to work RIGHT NOW! on the front line of Homeland Defense (south).

Later, men (and Child Bride and Sweetie)

brian k. sain
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 14:13:33 (ZULU)

Mule.

Most folks on this site understand the implied responsibility associated with our rights. Sharing the mechanics of mass comprehension....that's all I was doing.

Fritz....homogenous content is boring...ask any experienced communist.

Flattop - The money you spend on the raffle goes to support the roster... without the roster, the Major Santa network would not exists. You should feel good about all the money you spend on both goodies and tickets.

medicjim
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 15:04:24 (ZULU)

JOe I never did get a copy of that Col.'s paper. IF you have time?

Hope my virus cutter/mother of all firewalls. MOAF lets it though.

Bruce; "#9" not enough Ammonia. "Nothing like the smell of Sweet's in the morning." Seriously though. IF your a Methodist it's hardly worth the effort. But being totally immersed is a satifying experience. . Kinda like getting your first MIl-Dot Master. Take off your arthritis bracelet though. IT tends to turn it green. HOw's that for gun talk Fritzie? :)

Brogers
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 15:06:44 (ZULU)

BRogers, shoot me your e-mail addy and I will send a copy your way. I can never get any message thru the SC mail deal?

drmarc

drmarc(AT)se-tel.com

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 15:21:55 (ZULU)

DRmarc...

it is probably too late, but I highly suggest you remove your email address from the roster... it will be harvested by a spam engine and you will be barraged by BS.

medicjim
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 15:52:53 (ZULU)

Someone named Fritz wants to dictate content. Never heard of him.

CDC'
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 16:15:10 (ZULU)

brogers,

Brian is not "messing with a saint", he's only flirting with one. She DOES, after all, stay married to me, and for some reason is cheerful about it.

I WILL chaperone their date in Vegas, though.

And I agree with the total immersion thing, raised as a "Suthrin Babtiss." They hold that "Sprinklin' don't count."

But I can't afford a whole bathtub full of #9.

Anybody (that I recognize!) going to SHOT hit me off-Roster and I will give you the cell number. Only way to link up there short of a dedicated radio net. My lady Israeli friend and I found us calling each other to get a location, and we were 10 feet apart!

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 16:55:25 (ZULU)

Hey Jim, I couldn't possibly get any more spam mail than I do now at that address, I already get hundreds of "Enlarge your Pecker" e-mail advertisements and all the porn links I could ever shake my "Enlarged Penis" at!!!

I just want to know how'd THEY know I need it! LOL!

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 16:58:41 (ZULU)

Who all is attending the Shot Show? I'll be there, showering at the Sahara. :)

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 17:03:49 (ZULU)

"Old" Ammo

Took my Boy Scout Troop out shooting yesterday. During the "Dads get to shoot big guns" time, I notice a fellow opening SEALED Lake City Match M72 boxes - dated 1962. It seemed a waste.

Any historical value and/or interest in this for some of you hopeless collectors, or should he just enjoy shooting it? He has about a half dozen boxes still unopened. GG

GG
Tema-Coola, ca, - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 18:35:52 (ZULU)

Hogs - raffle status ---- Okay folks ... tix are going strong... We should be well up over 200 by the time I get thru processing the registrations this evening....

Also - Prize donors...Thanks to:

Mike Bolt - for donating a custom made fishing rod. It's a ton of work to make one of these correctly. The 5th place ticket holder will receive this prize

IronBrigade Armory. Norm Chandler has donated one of their Sniper Shooting Platforms in OD Green with black trim or Woodland Camo. This color choice and prize will be for the 6th ticket holder....

thanks hawgs.... I've forgotten how much fun these things can be.....

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 18:40:46 (ZULU)

Evening Fellas,

Any of you guys have any links to sites for making metal/reactive targets. Couple of friends and I just got permission to shoot over a nice piece of ground and we need targets, but are too tight to buy them ;-) Have plenty of steel MIG and arc welders. Just need the designs and ideas.

Thanks in advance.

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 19:28:21 (ZULU)

Jon,

This might give you some ideas on the targets:

http://www.mgmtargets.com/

-------

**** Joke Time **** (or is it Chit Chat now?)

THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING

Operator : "Thank you for calling Pizza Hut . May I have your..."

Customer: "Hello, can I order.."

Operator : "Can I have your multi purpose card number first, Sir?"

Customer: "It's eh..., hold on....6102049998-45-54610"

Operator : "OK... you're... Mr Sheehan and you're calling from 17 Meadow

Drive. Your home number is 494 2366, your office 745 2302 and your mobile

is 014 266 2566. Which number are you calling from now Sir?

Customer: "Home! How did you get all my phone numbers?"

Operator : "We are connected to the system Sir"

Customer: "May I order your Seafood Pizza..."

Operator : "That's not a good idea Sir"

Customer: "How come?"

Operator : "According to your medical records, you have high blood pressure

and even higher cholesterol level Sir"

Customer: "What?... What do you recommend then?"

Operator : "Try our Low Fat Soybean Yogurt Pizza.You'll like it"

Customer: "How do you know for sure?"

Operator : "You borrowed a book entitled "Popular Soybean Yogurt Dishes"

from the National Library last week Sir"

Customer: "OK I give up... Give me three family sized ones then, how much

will that cost?

Operator : "That should be enough for your family of 10, Sir. The total is

$ 49.99 ..

Customer: "Can I pay by credit card?"

Operator : "I'm afraid you have to pay us cash, Sir. Your credit card is

over the limit and you're owing your bank $3720.55 since October last year"

Operator : "That's not including the late payment charges on your housing

loan Sir.

Customer: "I guess I have to run to the neighborhood ATM and withdraw Some

cash before your guy arrives"

Operator : "You can't Sir. Based on the records, you've reached your daily

limit on machine withdrawal today"

Customer: "Never mind just send the pizzas, I'll have the cash ready.

How long is it gonna take anyway?"

Operator : "About 45 minutes Sir, but if you can't wait you can always come

and collect it on your motorcycle..."

Customer: " What the..?"

Operator : "According to the details in system, you own a

Harley,...registration number E1123..."

Customer: "@#%/$@&?#"

Operator : "Better watch your language Sir. Remember on 15th July 1987 You

were convicted of using abusive language on a policeman...

Customer:( Speechless)

Operator : "Is there anything else Sir?"

Customer: "Nothing... by the way... aren't you giving me that 3 free

bottles of Pepsi as advertised?"

Operator : "We normally would Sir, but based on your records you're also

diabetic....... " !!!!

_________________________________________________________________

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 20:39:44 (ZULU)

>>>Second I saw you wrote "oh shit" regarding the rifle [M1A].<<<

Don't take it personal. I guess you missed "The M14/M1A Shootout" we had several months back.............. Oh well........

BTW, I got 4 M1As and an M25 in the safe. The miscreants here can accuse me of anything they want but disliking the big gas gun isn't one of them! :-)

>>>I am curious though, the mount is an ARMS mount. It has a small Swan logo on it and I thought it was what I wanted when I got it like 8 years ago. Its steel, and the mount seems solid what with the bolt in the side of the reciever and the thing in the stripper clip slot.<<<

The biggest downfall (like Major Joe said) of mounting glass on the M1A is the mount. The military used Brookfields for a reason. And even they need to be mounted by a smith who knows what he's doing.

The ARMS mount (old or new version) has a reputation for finniky(?) attachment and should only be attempted by someone with a PhD in Mountology. IF you're (very) lucky, it'll work (maybe). Buy a Smith.

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Monday, November 24, 2003, at 22:21:46 (ZULU)

Mr Beardsly.

I know it must be hard on you these day what with England winngng the RWC. Heck the USA could not even beat FIJI. Well at least the taff's did not come home from the Six Nations with the wooden spoon so that is some consolation I guess. On a better note for you, somone here on the list has the priveledge of coaching the 2 time national Womens College Champions from the United States Air Force Academy. Oh wait I think thats me!

Well its only another 4 years tell the Welsh get another shot at teh Title. BTW the single most stiring moment in my 20 years of playing, coaching, and refereeing was to see the Welsh play the Scots at Cardiff Arms Park. Listening to the singing was simply unbelievable.

Hasher

Hasher
Monday, November 24, 2003, at 22:49:29 (ZULU)

Well it looks like the rifle raffle ticket sales have stalled at 137. Come on guys get it to 500 so I can get my new IBA rifle before Christmas ;)

Rob01
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 00:17:13 (ZULU)

Hogs -raffle status... Hogs... the ticket sales have not stalled. I managed to get home from work - and not bring my laptop... which is what I use to process the registry requests.... late this afternoon at work - I spot checked the emails coming in from the registry engine... the count is up over 200.....

Keep 'em coming... .I will process a fair amount of the registry requests tomorrow morning.... Even though you have to push a button to register ---- there's a dude in the background (me) that takes your info, and pastes into a worksheet, generates the ticket numbers and replies by to you.......

Anyhow... we have 500 to hit.. tell yer friends... or at least folks that you can talk into giving you the rifle in case they win - LOL...

take care all,

Prayers for our Troops, and folks on Patrol, and our Nation as well....

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesvill3e, Va, USofA Under God - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 01:50:54 (ZULU)

demarc; the MOAF got the file. IT sucks sometimes, and doesn't always know the good files from the bad. IT saw something it didn't like. Don't worry, I'll get it somehow. THanks a million for trying though!

Brogers
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 03:30:47 (ZULU)

HOLY GREAT GUNS BATMAN! IT'S GOT A M1LR LOUPY ON IT!

MY HEART BE STILL CATWOMAN! WHAT A PAIR OF HOOTERS! THAT ARE 2 BEAUTIFUL GUNS!

Brogers
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 04:06:48 (ZULU)

http://www.polizeibedarf.ch/Catalog/OperationIraqiFreedomLesso%20Copy.pdf

Draft copy of Iraqi Freedom Lessons Learned

sinister
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 04:30:36 (ZULU)

deleted double tap

sinister
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 04:31:12 (ZULU)

Gents,

Ken, good news on the riffle raffle...200 tickets spoken for and climbing. Can't wait to see the results.

Moe, like you, I like the M1A/M-14/M25 guns. Something about them.

My ,as new, Geoff Corn M25 has about 100 "break-in" rounds through it. Groups have gone from one ragged hole and opened up considerably.

Was headed to the range, yesterday, to sort things out. I suspect the mounts. Although, if anyone can set up scope system on an M25 Geoff can. It's the Arms mount and #18 ring set.

Range attempt had to be aborted due to a flat tire, getting it fixed and driveable, again. Next weekend for sure. I plan to use M852 as the "standard" and some of my 175 grain handloads to see what happens.

Moe, gents, your comments/thoughts are solicited. Pulleez! No "quit messin' with gas guns". No problem like this with my turn bolts.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 09:09:23 (ZULU)

Hogs --- keep on registering if you havent already done so -- heck - register again if you want - LOL....

I got to work this morning and= on may laptop there were over 100 new registrations to process - whew!..... I will be busy....

take care --- confirmations will be going out throughout the day as I get time to process them....

God Bless

ken hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 12:48:26 (ZULU)

Hogs --- 170 tix so far... I have 80 some odd registrations to process... I will grind thru them as I get breaks during the day.....

Keep them registrations coming.... make sure you register before you head off to Grandma's house this week.... then if you want --- Login from Grandmas house and register her and grandpa too - LOL...

take care

God Bless, Happy ThanksGiving

ken hunter
nokesville, va, us of a Under God - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 13:52:48 (ZULU)

Wes...man I feel your pain. With these gas guns, it could be anything....hell, my M21 outta the box had the gas block threaded "out" one turn--just enough to offset from the leetle-hole in the barrel. Results were an expensive single shot; but I bet those velocities were right up there! When I get home, I gotta chase my loose group too...I think the bedding let up on me. Good luck on you diagnosis...way too many variables. I guess the M1A/M14/ M25s are like a snot-nosed brat. Some where, there's a dad who loves the little sh!t...

MK4: Three boxes arrived; wipes and candy for life! I'll get this up to anaconda; I haven't hit those folks yet. Turns out they have some bubbas there for security who are feelin' left out.

un-SAIN-tly: Youz crackin' me up....thanks for the laugh. I needed it today.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 14:16:07 (ZULU)

Feelin' philosophical:

My gasser: We have a history. I actually like to tinker the damn thing back into shape. It is very satisfying to bring it back to sub MOA after spraying a 3 inch group the last week out. Of course, never know what it'll do the following week...so that's what the FN slicky-chrome liner', pre-64ish winney bolt wearin', Acra bedded, HS stocked, badger sporting SPR comes into play. When I go to the range (out back behind my 9 car pole shed), I wonder what my M21 will do for groups---while the SPR is wondering what I'm gonna do for groups. Knowing your equipment is consistant is a nice dose of reality...or a bitter dose on some days!

There is no worse a waste of 175s than to question the dope at 400 yards and chase the pattern...only to bench it at 100 and find a shotgun blast-group from something loose on the gun. I know my kid's birthday is coming based on this occurance. Mid-season M21 blues...

Bruce: No offense meant to you or child bride in my chastizing' the (in)Sain one!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 14:46:27 (ZULU)

Wow.....rifle raffle rifles rock! Registration enroute for a ticket.

Jon B re: steel targets. Simple is good. Cut sillouhettes, and pound the heck out of 'em!

Joe...stuck close to home, guy that works for me set me up on 40 acres of woods on Sunday. Sat for 6 hours in a steady downpour at 40 degrees F and winds 20-30 MPH, then the temp dropped 20 degrees. No other hunters. Final tally was one turkey, two pheasants, two squirrels, a bunch of crows, but no deer. Finally came in for the Packer game and to fix my car. I left my blaze orange in the truck and before long it was all frozen solid. They found a deer harvested in Rock County (Janesville area) with CWD. That's not far from the Walworth Co. game farm that was shut down last spring. Almost 123,000 deer harvested opening weekend across the state, up around 2000 from last year.

Bruce, that's a nice buck, and by your account, a damned fine shot!

Savage stocks.....I made mine pretty workable.

Dan, good to see your links again.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 14:58:17 (ZULU)

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honoraugust.html

http://www.bravestmemorial.com/html/home/home_fdny_memorial.html

Read the words. Ironic, eh?

Come gather 'round people

Wherever you roam

And admit that the waters

Around you have grown

And accept it that soon

You'll be drenched to the bone.

If your time to you

Is worth savin'

Then you better start swimmin'

Or you'll sink like a stone

For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics

Who prophesize with your pen

And keep your eyes wide

The chance won't come again

And don't speak too soon

For the wheel's still in spin

And there's no tellin' who

That it's namin'.

For the loser now

Will be later to win

For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen

Please heed the call

Don't stand in the doorway

Don't block up the hall

For he that gets hurt

Will be he who has stalled

There's a battle outside

And it is ragin'.

It'll soon shake your windows

And rattle your walls

For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers

Throughout the land

And don't criticize

What you can't understand

Your sons and your daughters

Are beyond your command

Your old road is

Rapidly agin'.

Please get out of the new one

If you can't lend your hand

For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn

The curse it is cast

The slow one now

Will later be fast

As the present now

Will later be past

The order is

Rapidly fadin'.

And the first one now

Will later be last

For the times they are a-changin'.

Bob Dylan

medicjim
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 15:19:54 (ZULU)

Geoff M.

That should be "Bobby (as in Mr. Whittington, Sir), that's a nice buck"........His bride, not mine.

Sweetie just got her "B"s crossed up, but edited it and assigned that fine animal to the correct hunter!

Joe,

No offense taken! InSain needs chastizing periodically...I think he kind of enjoys it. Anybody who can refer to me as "that little white trash fella" AND brag about his upcoming date with my wife...well, you know I have to think pretty highly of him! God knows, Child Bride thinks he's adorable, but then again, she married me.

CB and I will head back to Albuquerque for some more pipe cleaners and those little oil bottles and put them in the next box, along with a bunch of gun magazines that are cluttering up the end table next to my recliner! And of course, more chaw.

Now I just need some more contributions for another order from Art, and I can pad the whole box with some more of his jerky!

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 15:29:14 (ZULU)

Bruce,

Does your jerky source have a website... I would like to make a private purchase.

medicjim
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 15:37:34 (ZULU)

BRUCE! No no no my friend. I was referring to MYSELF as the little white trash fella. NOT YOU for heavens sake!

Everyone knows you are a gentleman of the highest order.

I, on the other hand, am just plain white trash assigned to slave away in this hell hole.

Besides ... anyone can see that Kansas City Southern ain't got enough engines to drag that woman away from you.

Bye

briank. sain
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 16:25:23 (ZULU)

Ken,

Thanks for all the work you're doing for this raffle. Great job! Fantastic! Will some more brwon nosing win me a rifle? HAHA honestly,....thanks for the work your doin.

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 16:51:16 (ZULU)

Some comments on the insurgents'weakness. "The key to American success in Iraq is maintaining broad support from Iraqi citizens and at home in America." This is consistent with the report Joe M. disseminated.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dillon200311250916.asp

Or click my name.

CDC'
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 17:04:50 (ZULU)

Brian,

Hell, I figured you HAD to be refering to me! And took it as a point of pride!

medicjim (and anybody else interested):

Art's website is down right now, but he can be emailed at:

JerkyByArt@aol.com

Or call him at (505) 262-0240.

Can't say that you'll get the same price that I get for the troops (I pay retail for mine, and it's worth it), but if any of you want to support this fine American, I damn sure encourage it. He's golden.

I strongly recommend the green chile, red chile, and chipotle (that's a smoked jalapeno for you Easterners!).........get the Habanero if you're feeling brave and have some good cold Dos Equis at hand.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 17:38:16 (ZULU)

SteveS - I'm afraid brown nosing wont work. Heck - I dont draw the tickets. I just receive the registrations, issue ticket numbers, cut the tickets, and distribute the prizes afterwards.... My neighbor's daughter (age 5) will do the drawing... Im pretty sure she wont be biased... even then - she cant see whats in the bucket... she just knows to pull out one ticket at a time..... and Right now as it stands... she will get to do that 6 times...

Unless it's a number that kinda sticks in my head...I dont know whose it is until I get home and look in the spreadsheet (registry). We like to give her a roll of quarters or somethin like that from the raffle funds - to stuff into her piggy bank.

More confirmations went out during lunch. I will hit them hard this evening and play ketchup on the registry stuff... We will probably be pushing close to 300 by this evening...Keep 'em coming ..... I want to have these prizes under their respective Christmas trees.

take care folks,

Prayers for the Troops and Patrolmen/women

ken hunter
nokesville, va, us of a Under God - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 17:51:36 (ZULU)

"Oooooo DEteeect ive, it was a baaad wreck. I seen the whole thang.

Det man was ejaculated from the vehicle"

brian k. sain
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 20:12:50 (ZULU)

Ken,

Sorry for the false alarm about the ticket sales stalling. I didn't know you had to put them all in by hand. I was just trying to drum up some more sales. Thanks for doing everything you are.

Rob01
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 20:56:36 (ZULU)

Brian you crack me up dude. I think you should write another book about the little simple things like that.

Marc
CV, CA, - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 22:26:57 (ZULU)

Hi guys...

Just came around to say hello... so "Hello!"

... and you guys need to get off of Ken's case on this raffle thing. He's poured THOUSANDS of hours into SC, plus put his own money and equipment into it - if he was rippin' it off, ya'all would have been broke long ago.

David Smith...

If it's not too late, get your riffle from that dealer, leave and don't go back! He knows nothing about longrange shooting, or Leupold scopes, or mounts!!!

The M3-LR is the current military sniper scope, so it's not likely to have been disco'ed. If you get one (get it from www.premierreticles.com with the Gen-II reticle, and tell Dick that "lito" sent ya')... you will NEED a tapered base - get the Badger base and don't ever look back. Get Badger or Leupold "MK-4" rings - either will do fine.

Other than benchrest, at really long range (past 500yds) high power not only isn't needed, but it's a handicap. Most days I can't use more than 10x at 400yds.

'yote Bate...

Look at the low priced security cameras and receivers that are rated for a few hundred feet, then make up two YAGI's with 12 to 15 elements (cost ya' about $10 for both at 2.4 gigs) - that'll give you a pair of 20 db gain antennas, and with them lookin' at each other, the path gain will be 40db... lemme see, 250 miliwatts at 40db gain??? That's 250 miliwatts to the 13th power... Hmmm a path ERP of 2000 watts!! That ought to cover 1000 yds of open ground, ya' think??

Hey ALAN...

If you're lurkin', drop me an e-mail!

Bruce...

E-mail me your mailing address. I'm cleaning out the garage and takin' the old Rum an' lime jooce bottles back for deposits ;))

'lito

NO cats this year :((

She moved!!

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 22:38:46 (ZULU)

BKS,

Don't you hate it when that happens???????

To All:

Back from Wally World with pipe cleaners (all they had), penlites and sunscreen. Ordered another 8 rolls of chaw from the White Buffalo, too. They'll be in Friday, they think.

Expenditures: $70.21

Balance as of 25 Nov: $211.83

Then we open up an envelope from Deputy Doug.

Revised Balance as of 25 Nov. (2200 ZULU): $461.83

Ordered another 200 packs of jerky from Art at 2230 ZULU, for Friday pick-up. Friday will be busy. White Buffalo on the Rez, then into ABQ for the Jerky and then to the hobby shop where we found the squeeze bottles for gun oil.

Child Bride will have some packing to do.

"Ask and ye shall receive."

Thanks Doug, and all of you. Words fail me.

Heard from Undude today. He's fixin' to get whittled on again next week. That boy is half the reason medical insurance is so high. Wish I'd had his policy for my bulldog's knees!

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 23:00:11 (ZULU)

'lito,

Welcome back. I was afraid all those "pussies" had carried you away. ;o)

'yote bait,

My prairie pup huntin' buddies are buggin' me to put together another safari to your neck of the woods. You may get invaded again next June. Wonder if the motel lady will have some more "entertainment" for us. Hearing "Come out with your hands up!" at 0200 sure gets the adrenalin pumpin'! Glad they weren't talking to me or my friends.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cold Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 23:01:33 (ZULU)

Fritz

Sorry I did not obey the "rules of engagement" (still wet behind the ears) but separating politics from "shooting" is like asking for religion without God but I digress------------

All

Lots of post in the past of Varget powder being the prime mover for the bolt guns in 308. My background was with the M1A and the junior club shooters are always looking for new types of powders to tighten up the groups. Has anyone placed this powder in the gas guns,how does it perform, and is it a worthy replacement for the 4895.

Also, thanks for your input on the scope selection-- got the Mk4 M3 today with the Gen II mildots from Premier------ A true winner and looks as tough as mule hide!!! Thanks again

Mule

Mule
Tuesday, November 25, 2003, at 23:30:26 (ZULU)

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