Sniper Country Duty Roster

November 2003

Bruce, As soon as I find out when the "package" will arrive we'll make arrangements! Rodger on the green chile cheeseburger!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 00:24:33 (ZULU)

Just got back this past weekend from the Badlands Basic course. I wish to post that this group of instructors are the best and most conscientious assemblage of gentlemen that I have ever worked with. They know their stuff, they teach it to you and they do it without the confrontational atsmophere you see at so many of the courses. They don't get flustered, they don't get mad, they just go about their business of training. I would like to encourage anyone who has a desire to become more proficient in this art to consider this course. You will learn a lot of real time sniping, you will learna lot about the philosophy behind it, and you will be up to date! Most of all, you will work with some of the nicest and most straightforward people I've had the pleasure to know. Bobby and Steve. Best yet. Thanks, guys! Paul

paul Charbonneau
Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 02:52:12 (ZULU)

Bobby,

I gotta get up there some day and let you guys teach me some stuff.

Just crazy busy here. A homicide, two other DBs (one of those is suspicious) all in one day.

Hell, we had a callout last night.

Some fool took his common-law wife and infant hostage. Wife escaped and the guy kept the kid inside for a few hours before we showed up. Seems he filled a bathtub with gasoline and the baby was covered in it too.

He gave up shortly after we set up.

God knows what he had on his mind.

Hate to see victims so scared that their entire body is shaking uncontrollably. All because of some bully who pisses himself when the men show up. Pisses me off ...

During all of this ... we had an armed robbery/shooting three blocks away and the crook was running through the damn perimeter of the callout!

Crazy days ahead I am afraid. Reminds me a lot of the late Eighties when crack was still new.

Anyways ... I'll get up there one o' these days.

Later,

... Oh, and "Insane" ain't too very far off the mark here lately there, bud. lol

brian k. sain
Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 03:56:05 (ZULU)

Brian,

No offense meant by the Mr Insane comment. You just crack me up, your ability to put into a hilarious content of the things we (or police) deal with on a daily basis. Heck..I said we didn't I . I am now OFFICIALLY Retired from the PD after 21 +yrs. Start a new job on Monday that is going to be interesting working for the local District Court.

You come on up anytime sir..I am looking forwards to learning some stuff from you!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 04:04:28 (ZULU)

I guess ya'll didn't know that BKS was a celebrity....of sorts.

He and his team were featured in the Dec 03 edition of SWAT magazine. The title of the article is "Tactical Waterborne Operations; Law Enforcement Basic Course by Chris Adams. His picture is on pages 46 & 47.

Now I know why the Chicks dig him. Has to be the mustache ;))))

Welcome home, SSG Scott.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 04:44:58 (ZULU)

I am looking into getting a new automatic powder measure set up. Does anyone have any exp. with the Pact 1 scale and the infrared powder disp that goes with it. Also found that Lyman has a 1200dps system that is all one piece and has 20 preset charges it can remember. Any info you could give would be great. Thanks Keith

Keith Lucas
Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 11:50:56 (ZULU)

Couple of weeks ago I finally learned how to hook up the sling on my AR for shooting service matches. Well, I have finally determined that this sucks and I'm going back to just wrapping the sling around my arm like with a hunting rifle. The damn thing gets loose and slides down my arm even with my extremely useless high dollar shooting coat. I tried to go from standing to sitting and liked to have choked myself to death cause the coat don't move at all. After I finally got situated in the sitting position, I almost couldn't get up without loosening up the coat. The coat is so hot I had to go outside at 40 degrees to keep from sweating my nads off. Not to mention the fact that you have to wear a sweatshirt under it? The stoopid shooting glove is so thick I can't even feel the riffle.

I guess I just don't understand why the NRA calls this the "Service Rifle" class. There ain't nothin service about it. High dollar shooting coats, high dollar gloves, two-stage triggers, loading one round at a time in slow fire, diopters in the sights. Hhhhrrrrmmmmmpppphhhhh!!!!!!!!!

May just stick with tactical or whatever we're going to call it F-class.

Old fart bitching, Bolt out!

BTW- the blond news chick on Fox and Friends is wearing black fishnet hose. Very nice!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 13:58:29 (ZULU)

Bolt; Welcome to the world of fools with rules. Most competetion shooting is about as practical as a broom with no handle. IF it's not screwed up to begin with, it will be shortly. A few guys like Bobby and Steve have managed to keep some practical training going without all the BS trophy shooting and all that. Soon everything becomes a meticulous science and high dollar quickly invades to ruin a sport that was intended to be a training exercise. Sucks don't it.

Gooch; I hate agreeing with you :)....but your right about the sights. Even quick drawing defensive techniques with a handgun should progress to use of sights and two hands as quickly as possible unless shooting at very close range and time is a matter of immediate life and death. In that case it really don't matter what the jury says unless you want to be buried now.

Sane; you got an interesting life my man. I'm right tickled I don't have to face your problems every day. Gotta go by the boss lady some breakfast.

Brogers
Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 14:21:32 (ZULU)

re: Service rifle competition

Not to gore anyone's ox....

The problem with formal competition is that the game becomes an end unto itself. There's always going to be someone looking for that last bit of edge in the equipment arena, which tends to drive up the price. The other problem is that not everyone has the same vision of what the competition format is supposed to test or prove.

It's these kind of issues that spawned F class, or the rebirth of

IPSC into IDPA for the tactical pistol adherents.

If the goal is to develop proficency with a service rifle using realistic ancilary equipment, the specialized monster shooting gloves and leather shooting coats/jackets would not be permitted.

Heck, truly realistic would require wearing BDU's, combat boots

and maybe a pack with X amount of weight inside. That's apparently how service rifles are actually used by ground forces in the field.

My hypothesis is that the goal of NRA Service rifle competition is the see how much handheld known distance accuracy is possible with a long gun that externally appears to be a service rifle, with the permitted equipment list derived from that premise.

here's some food for thought:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/17Oct03.html

Louis Awerbuck, makes a good point when he suggests that we complicate training challenges, not by increasing target distance, but by reducing contrast and adding movement. At any such suggest ion, of course, all the target shooting kiddies shriek in horror!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 14:46:35 (ZULU)

Bolt, Just shoot what ever rifle you like how you like. In F-class I will shoot my Stealth and GA rifle regardless of what others will shoot in the class. If I tie some one shooting a 338 Super Dooper Thunder Boomer with a 16X scope under any conditions, better yet under windy conditions, would there be any doubt who the better shooter would be? I just shoot for myself and if I happen to get some bragging rights in a long the way all the better.

IDPA aint much better than IPSC. You get a procedural for dropping a mag with one bullet in it? If one bullet would matter in a gun fight a person should learn to make every shot count and be better off. I shoot NRA ACtion Pistol granted there aint much action in it but a person does learn to get off shoots in a timed situation at a small x ring out to 50 yds and at moving targets. This seems more practical. But then again Im fat and don't think running should be a sport let alone combined with shooting ;)

Bobby, BKS has and will continue to be called worse ;)

Going to shoot quail all day tomarrow. It's a ruff job but someone has to do it. A dog club wants me to be a gunner for a hunt test. Planted birds and shooting over well trained dogs. Seriously who's jealous?

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 17:31:31 (ZULU)

Went back and looked at the rules. The only 'service rifle' thing that I saw was that you have to have the sling attached at both ends of the rifle. I reckon that makes sense because I don't know many soldiers or wannebee's like me walking around the woods with only one end of the sling attached.

I realize that it is hard making competition completely realistic. If it was, all of us would have to get on the front lines with the guys getting shot at. However, I do think that competition descriptions should accurately describe what they are. The other NRA class descriptions fairly well describe what they are. Not only should the rifle itself be limited, but the accutrimants should also.

Well, maybe the next match I'll be a trend setter in the lack of shooting accessories arena. I may not hit the target but at least I will know that I am getting as close to shooting the way I think that you guys actually shoot in the service. I'll never know the stress, but hell getting to be an old fart is stress enough. Seriously considering putting my two un-used high dollar shooting coats and glove up on EBAY.

Time to go to Sam's Club for a couple of those $116 Starlight wheeled gun cases. The lovely Doughlady called and said they had 18. If it is the real thing, I may just take them all and auction them off later.

Hasta ya pasta, Boltar out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 18:14:12 (ZULU)

Bolt, use a web sling like the WWII issue for M1s, not the web STRAP that comes with many ARs. Works great. Even some NRA High Masters use it, it stays on your arm

artee
Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 18:56:02 (ZULU)

You guys' (nice english LT) description of pistol comp. drew a parallel to my reaction when I took my dog to a Schutzhund club trainer. Idea was to get him working in a different environment since he has done most of his work at a particular place with a certain trainer. The fact that this was a sport more than training for anything real became apparent right away. The dogs were like robots - really excellent at the trained tasks but - I wouldn't want to rely on one sitting at home with a BG coming through the window. They seemed wired, and somehow not trustworthy or situationally aware. Trainer had a breeding program too. Wonder if he bred into them that single-mindedness that they seemed to have. Wanted me to get a pup from him too - no thanks. That was my first and only Schutzhund experience – maybe will give it a try in the future with another club/trainer. The guy seemed like a jagoff – bad mouthing every trainer in the area and every non-schutzhund protection training method.

LTChip
Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 20:23:22 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Yep, I'm jealous. Got a 12 ga. Parker that would love to be there with you. That's the kind of shooting that makes you understand Robert Ruark's treatises on how bobwhite are gentlemen, and how hunting them over a good dog would make you a gentleman, too.

As to the rest of you:

Now you can be jealous of me!

As I type, Child Bride is baking an apple pie, and we just got back from the Post Office. We extracted two letters from the box (one of which was the first addressed to "Goodies for Grunts").....and the fund jumped to $629.02!!!!!!! That's $350.00 total from two donors.

There is no better feeling in the world (that I know of) than being smacked in the face with this kind of generosity.

An excerpt from one of today's letters:

"I just wanted to pass on this gift and thank you and Major Joe Mahon (Maj. Santa) for your part in his distribution of these gifts for our troops fighting for our freedom. I would appreciate your using my gift to support our troops, and send along our appreciation for the risk and danger they take everyday to protect our way of life. To let them know no matter what they hear in the news about protest, we stand behind them 100%"

Joe......that's your job, to send that message along.

My heartfelt thanks to Dr. Larry in CA and to Ted in CA. Both these guys are lurkers......and both are great Americans.

If any of you are not jealous of me after this morning, you're dead from the neck up!

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 20:59:37 (ZULU)

Marc, the Brit army teach something called (if i remember right) Instinctive Fire Techniques. i figure its the same thing you are on about, point and shoot rather than aim,they taught it from all sorts of possitions/holds, i tend to use it when using my shot gun, ive both eyes on the target and i don't use the rib or the bead at all, when i start to use the rib or bead i tend to start to miss, this is where technique, what did you call it? muscle memory, at least knowing that you hold the weapon same every time, and very important, stock fit is very important. Its a CQB technique, good for ranges up to what,maybe 75yards? I seem to combine this technique and the use of sights when shooting driven game, I'm pretty good at driven boar and deer and although i know i use the sight, i don't consiously(sp?) aim,rifle comes up, i swing through the target and when i pull the trigger i guess the reticle is just in the right place, when i shoot at standing game, or even slow moving game, i concentrate on exactly where i aim and i know exactly where i aimed after the shot, when i do it with running game i have no idea after the shot about where the reticle was when i pulled the trigger, I've been asked a few times "How the hell did you manage to hit that?" i can never answer, i dunno, instinct? anyway, as with anything, the more practiceone gets the better one becomes. and yeah, i like things wrapped in rubber... Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 22:07:29 (ZULU)

service rifle;

A buddy and I went to a service rifle match at our club a few weeks ago. There was so much gear on the line it looked like a construction site. Nobody seemed to be having fun either, way too serious.

I'm kicking around an idea about a match to have at the club. It will be battle rifles, as oppossed to service rifles, and commercial clones. The classes will be Battle Rifle and Commercial. Battle Rifle will be any battle rifle from any military in it's as issued state. This class would include but not limited to: M1 Garand, M1903, Krags, military Mausers, Mosins, Enfields, M14(real), M16(real), FAL/L1A1(real)SKS,etc. Commercial will be: AR, AK, M1A, FAL/L1A1, CETME, and other rifles that are a civilian version of a military rifle.

No non-issue accessories will be allowed. Slings must be issue type. Target will be man size silhouette at 200 yards. No shooting jackets or gloves. You can use any safe ammo but magazine rifles must be magazine feed. Positions are prone, kneeling, standing in any order you choose.

Would anyone be interested in shooting a match like this? Any suggestions are welcome.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 22:28:40 (ZULU)

MK4:

Hey just fyi, that was just me and my LT. teaching at that gig (He and I in our greens coming around the wheelhouse). All the other guys wearing blacks were from all over.

BOBBY: No offense taken at all. They hung "Insane" on me in the first grade. Kids can be so cruel ... lol.

Everybody from the street folk to my swat brothers call me that now. 'Course, my behavior lends some credibility to the moniker.

I just don't give a damn. Just ask Bruce ...

Daughter called this morning. She got ELEVEN POUNDS of candy last night ... Lord.

Life is good.

brian k, sain
Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 00:35:08 (ZULU)

Bolt,

I hear ya on the jacket sucking, but yours are new, and will be much better when they're broken in. You'll need to sweat through them and work them around while they're soaked to loosen them up. They'll still be hotter than hell though.

I find that when I go to 200y sitting,(prone too) I only buckle the top two straps, with the lower one somewhat loose. Also, loosen your belt. It will help.

Sling. Some guys use a nylon sling for offhand, and when they go through the rest of the COF, get the leather sling set up so that it attaches only to your arm and the front rifle swivel. It acts as a cuff, and will likely not slip down your arm. I actually like the sling at the top of my elbow, as I know it's not going any further, but to each thier own.

Yeah,, Service rifle pretty much just standard for 223 and 20" barrel, or 7.62 and 21" (is that right) barrel. Two rifles to choose from, unless your a bad ass and can compete with a Garand. It's pretty much come down to modified, positional small bore with military TYPE rifles.

I stopped shooting XTC in July, and concentrated on long range. (trying to do too much I guess) My scores went up, and I am far more consistant. I'll likley go back to XTC on a limited basis. That is, when the AR is re-barreled,, but the 1K line is so much more fun. Comes down to picking what you like best, and getting good at it.

I know what you mean though. If they really wanted to shoot service rifle, It'd be like the Garand matches. You walk to the line, they hand you a rack grade rifle and CMP ammo and you shoot it. A canvas shooting jacket could be allowed, but everything else is issued. Of course,, then we wouldn't get to own all these nice toys....

Have you tried slinging up for a scoped prone match yet?

Chris...

Chris
Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 00:45:07 (ZULU)

Mr. Whittington, Sir:

Don't give a second thought to calling Brian "InSain"......he is, but it just makes him that much more fun to be around.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 01:59:40 (ZULU)

>>>Hey just fyi, that was just me and my LT. teaching at that gig (He and I in our greens coming around the wheelhouse). All the other guys wearing blacks were from all over.<<<<

Yeah, I got that out of the article. Your team wasn't your Port Arthur mates but a team nevertheless. That was you up front in the full page photo...right?

Didn't you say something about a Coast Guard Cutter running you guys down....or something?

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 02:24:05 (ZULU)

Starlight Rifle Cases.......

You hawgs need to hurry on down to Sam's and pick up on the Starlight cases. As near as I can cipher, you're getting a $225+ case for about $125. Doughlady says this is a one time buy for Sam's and when they're gone, they're gone. I got one today and if I could afford it I would buy 2 or 3 more.

Chris.....

I seriously think I will just sell this stuff before I use it and mess it up. I reckon I would rather just shoot as close to real military as I can. I'm using a Turner leather sling on my RRA. I won't be taking the two-stage trigger out but I think I'm just gonna keep it simple and shoot the way I come dressed. Really the only reason that I'm going to shoot service rifle is to help my offhand hunting shots and to get my CMP qualifications to buy ammo and stuff.

Jody......

I like your idea!

The guy shooting the lawyer.....

The lawyer should get an offer from an NFL scout. The only time I've seen a lawyer poot and scoot like that was when he was taking my check to a bank to cash. Lucky for him the guy couldn't shoot for shit.

On realism training and competition.....

This kinda stuff relates to the Survivor TV show. If they really wanted to make it real they would strip em down, give em a KBar and kick their asses off the boat about a mile from shore. Come back in a year and see who's left standing.

Gotta go help put grandson to bed, he's been having a bad tooth day....Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 02:44:20 (ZULU)

Bolt- if'n you haven't, go to jarheadtop.com and get Jim Owen's book on the sling & position shooting. Actually, the whole series is worth the $. Way back when used to shoot in the DCM matches.

WR Moore
Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 02:56:37 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Re: Starlight Cases

Will be in Lubbock on Monday, so I'll check with SAMS there...if Sarge doesn't beat me there first ;))

There sure has been a lot of talk on the Hide about a Tactical "F" class. I for one would like to see it come together. Kevin M has some excellent comments on the subject:

http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000232;p=3

Mk4

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 03:14:03 (ZULU)

Bruce, now I'm jealous. I wish I had a Parker or Belgian Browning. I will be using a Italian O/U.. At least it aint an autoloader. Hetherns use them and pumps.. I'll be ducking now for the incoming..

Bolt keep atleast one of them jackets. If you get rid of both you'll end up buying another. Thanks for the poop on the Starlight cases.. Gunna hit Sams as soon as I can.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 06:12:18 (ZULU)

Soiled Steve......

You're right I probably need to keep one of em. Kinda like when I took up golf. I bought nice shoes, clubs and a bag just so I could look like I knew what I was doing. Still couldn't hit the ball. Gave it up, lost too many balls. These days, I won't chase anything across a field that I can't make love to or eat.

MK4.....

The tactical F-class is going to be a neat thing as has already been proven at Butner. We had a guy shooting a Salvage 223 last match and he shot a 200-17X off a pod. Master Cockerham is heading up the rules committee.

WR.....

I'm going to order the books today. Thanks. I already have a couple books but Jim's looks good.

Fox News Blonde Chick....

Looking very nice this morning.

Time to mess with grandbaby, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 12:32:37 (ZULU)

Hello Gents,

This is my first post. Long time lurker. I am orginally from South Carolina and plan on returning home after the Army. So does anyone know of any good training schools and/or competions in that area (GA FL SC NC TN)? Also, does anyone use a Springfield scope? Been looking at the 6-20x just looking for some thoughts. I am not a sniper in the Army But my job as an EOD tech requires the use of a .50 BMG, currently the Barrett M82A1. Any suggestions as to which scopes handle that volume of recoil best. Since we can procure optics from the civilian market.

Mr. Robinson,

Thank you for what you are doing for guys like me. If you would tell the Major to keep eye out for any EOD guys over there. thanks

Neel Parler
uijongbu, korea - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 14:18:18 (ZULU)

Yeah MK4,

That's me.

Look close at the guy behind me. Can you tell from the photo how BIG that SOB is? ... 6'5" maybe 260 ... no fat.

Hey we had fun. We were doing the open water part of the deal from a USCG station down in FL. Had to make sure the big boats didn't run over us while we were swimming across the bay.

A network film crew was filming some of the stuff we could allow for some future show. Water was C O L D. Some really pretty and nice lady there with the film crew ... German.

Gave her a wink and a wave from a Zodiac after some swimmer casting.

Once we hit the dock, she tried to ask in broken English who we were and what we were doing. I tried in my best broken German to tell her.

"Ich bin ein Amerikaner und meinen Deutschlasen is nisht zer gut"

(Pete, youda been so proud).

Anyways, so I throw down with the ole Ge Es Ge Ninen Polizei Sharfshuetzen, Kopfjaeger line. (The only thing I thought she might understand).

"Ahhhh, GeEsGENinen" ... like a kid in a candy store.

oops. Turns out she was married to the cameraman !

Pissed him off (and all the soaking wet operators shivering their asses off on the dock) when she brought me a big ole cup of steaming cocoa out of the CG station.

heh, heh. ... "Why that little SOB" ...

Man, I sure hear those words a lot.

brian k. sain
Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 14:38:18 (ZULU)

Stock question.......

For those of you that have had the opportunities to do field testing of the McMBro. A5, A4, and the HSPrec. vertical grip which one do you like the best?

Pondering a Christmas 'stocking' stuffer. LOLLOL!

FORGOT TO ASK......

Do you like the spacer system or the 3-way adjustable LOP?

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 14:38:20 (ZULU)

Personally, I like the A3.

The A4 bites.

I'd take the A5 over the A4 if an A3 wasn't available.

brian k. sain
Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 14:44:19 (ZULU)

Bolt,

I agree with Mr. Sain.......(:*

I would not reccommend the A4 to anyone, unless they want a crew served weapon.LOL

The A3 is IMLHO, the best prone stock, for field use.

The A5, is a great all rounder, and is better than the A3 for field carry, and offhand/kneeling shooting.( depending on fill, it doesn't do well in prone, at least in the LIGHT fill, unless off a ruck or bags..bipod bounces like a mutha).

PST 25 series is a really comfortable stock, and you can wrap around that baby easily..I like it very much.

That said, if it came down to a choice Mac's win out every time for me at least.

I would really determine which "Stocking" stuffer you want, predicated on WHAT the application for the intended stick is.

Two Shoes

Terry
Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 14:58:57 (ZULU)

Gents,

I'm still alive...just been busy lately...fuckin' a, you had to hear we lost a shit-hook today. Kids on their way to R&R leave, and a crew I know personally.

The more they talk about pulling out, the more the BGs take heart...someone ought to shut up the peace-niks.

Everyone knows you can't beat the US Armed Forces in the field, you beat them on the homefront. It is the objective of the BGs to destroy public support. Our esteemed crop of candidates are playing it out in the pre-primaries. And to them I say it is unpatriotic, and freedom of speach is the refuge of scoundrels. You can, IMHO, say what the fuck you want, but it has consequences. All our free actions do....rant off.

I hate losing friends....

JoeM

Joe Mahon
Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 15:29:10 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

My condolences on the loss of your friends.It is a shame to see good American kids get killed serving their country, but we know it will happen. May the grace of God give piece to the families of the victims. Fox news is covering the crash. They said Iraqis were running around with pieces of the helicopter like they were trophys. That makes it suck all the more.You try and help somebody and you get dumped on. I tell everyone I talk to about how our soldiers are gungho to get the job done and the liberal media and celebrity pukes are being unamerican and demoralizing to our troops. I thank you and appreciate your comments and updates from the field. Keep up the good work passing out the care packages from home.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 16:11:49 (ZULU)

God Speed to our fallen troops in Iraq and God's comfort to those families that were awaiting their return. Our prayers to you.

It's time for ALL of us to step up to the plate. Joe and Bruce have been doing an exemplary job of getting "Goodies to the Grunts." Their tireless efforts are certainly deserving of the highest recognition and commendation...and they're a LONG way from being through.

In the face of tragedy lets shoot back with what we've been doing best and show our GREATEST support yet for our troops. Start writing those Christmas cards or a simple THANK YOU and then send your best check to Bruce. Maybe somebody can re-list those items that make life a little more tolerant for our soldiers in a hostile environment.

For those that have given, God bless you. For those that are still sitting on their asses, what are you waiting on!

Tomorrow (for me) is devoted to this very thing.

No apologies for this RANT!!

(Click on my name for those of you that have forgotten)

Mk4
WHAT IS THE PRICE OF FREEDOM WORTH TO YOU?, - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 18:07:11 (ZULU)

I just saw a bunch of Iraqi's jumping up and down on wreckage and cheering the deaths of the troops. Reminds me of the video from Somalia. I reckon it's a good thing that I'm not in the military and not standing within shooting distance of those bastards. There appears to still be a target rich environment that is not being properly addressed. Time to take off the kid gloves and kick some major booty.

Pissed off and can't do anything about it.....Bolt out!

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 19:14:14 (ZULU)

Joe, I am sorry to hear more friends are seated in Valhalla today. They earned the seats and await the rest who will join them someday. Lets just hope more don't join soon. God speed to good men! If I could be there I would do so. Just sit me on a hill and leave me for a few days. They will run out of virgins for the terrorists quick.

I have my own feelings for the folks we are fighting in that part of the world. All I have to say is if Allah is on your side, put the uniform back on and lets rock! Otherwise understand you are beaten and give it up.

Bruce, at Shot Show dinner is on me for all your hard work on this. I believe a seat is reserved for you in Valhalla. You are a warrior in spirit and deeds. A friend in my heart.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 19:34:52 (ZULU)

Joe,

Breaks my heart........so sorry for your and our collective loss.........my most sincere condolences to you, and their families.

Now, as to the mongrels jumping up and down on the wreckage, and celebrating, I think a good spray n pray would be in order.

These folks have lost the fear of God, and we need to re-instill it in them.

Make no mistake, Allah, is not the same as GOD almighty........he is a fake.

A counterfeit.....the raggies don't have a clue.

We have put on kid gloves, and have failed to realize the lessons the Israelis have only learned too well.

Either way, Joe........Godspeed to you, and may the Lord give you peace about this.......Bless you, and all the other wonderful Americans putting it on the line.......we owe a debt we cannot pay........

Two Shoes

Terry
Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 20:06:32 (ZULU)

Joe,

FUCK THE ASSHOLES THAT ARE SECOND GUESSING BUSH.

You guys are doing great!!!

The pussy's will eat thier words later.....

Tell everyone to hang tough. The BG's are sweating.

Out

Gooch
BumFuck, AR, US of A - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 20:21:16 (ZULU)

Major...Our sincerest condolences regarding your news.

RE: Stock Question:

My partner shoots a HS PST 25. I prefer my A4 over that stock. I may be the minority but the wieght doesn't seem to bother me too much. Seems to actually help a little in offhand (esp sitting). The square fore end seems to keep the weapon from rolling over when really tight in the sling. YMMV. Can't comment on the A5.

PJC
Upstate, SC, US of A - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 21:29:08 (ZULU)

Joe,

CB and I had special prayers for the victims of the Chinook incident when we were in church this morning. It just hurts worse to know you knew some of them.

Our hearts go out to them and their families. May God grant them the peace that passes all understanding.

Dow Corning still has the formula for napalm, and I'm sure we have some Willie Pete in reserve. Give the Sunni Triangle 12 hrs. to evacuate, and then turn it into a parking lot. Those that chose not to inform on the terrorists get to live in a cardboard box somewhere else, too.

Maybe that's not too Christian of me, but tough shit.

Undude,

I'm not a warrior. I'm a hunter, a shooter, and a tinkerer. But if acting as a pipeline for jerky, chaw, Tootsie Rolls and baby wipes will let me rub elbows with the real warriors, I'll take it and run! I am honored to help, however I can. We will take you up on the dinner at SHOT.......preferably carne adovada, or baby back ribs with a chipotle dry rub! Beers are on us, though!

CB and I want to thank all of you who have (and continue to be) so generous. God Bless you all.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 23:16:43 (ZULU)

Hello all.... Just wanted to pop in and give words of support for Joe and his comrades/our troops.

Bruce - you're quite alright in your posting. Today's a good day for those hoop-hollering bastards to die. The only real way to shut these dudes down permanently is to positively ID each of the operative camps and simply destroy them all. Let the world bitch.

Brian - A4 stock - man - it's nice to hug onto ...but ya better have a strong back.

take care all - God Bless.

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Under God - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 00:25:17 (ZULU)

Bolt: Why did you buy all that gear in the first place? The idea of "Service Rifle" shooting is to get as proficient as possible with the issue rifle as possible. I mad it to expert using a USMC canvas shooting blouse with the padded elbows and a nylon issue M-16 sling, with a leather work glove to keep my hand from getting too hot during rapid fire. I had to upgrade gear for reasons of improvement.

If all you want to do is get as good as you can get using what would be issued to the troops, you don't need most of that fancy stuff. If, however, you wish to go any further than that, and be competitive, you need to know the reason you get the "stuff". The jacket stiffens up the torso to reduce some of the inherent wobble we all have. the quilting and padding are for that reason, not to torture you, as I'm sure you've thought in the past. It helps position the butt for consistent shoulder-to-stock placement. It helps reduce the transmission of pulse-induced movement, and kinda-sorta-not really keeps a tight sling from hurting so damn bad, just before your hand goes numb. That, most people really do shoot better hot than they do cold. And the padded elbows help in prone shooting. Somehow, I think you knew all that, but just weren't prepared for how uncomfortable it would all be. The glove is also to keep the rifle isolated from the hand to reduce wobble and pulse, and only slightly more to get a better grip when using a really, REALLY tight sling in the prone position. Unless you like using sticky glue straight on your hand to keep the handguard in place. Since you already have the gear, hang on to it, and tough out the learning curve. It's all there for a reason. Now, some would like to whine and cry that it's getting too "toy oriented", or putting "gamesmanship" above "practicality". Horseshit. The name of the game is MARKSMANSHIP. Standing up on your own two hind feet and putting a bullet into a bullseye at two hundred yards. Most of the ones who start wailing just aren't willing to put in the time and sweat to get where the big boys are, so they start bitching about the gear. If you are at the point you are at now, you're obviously not the whiner type, you just have to get used to it. I thought I was going to melt, or burn up, or have my arm fall off or something before it finally started coming together. Two more Master scores, and I get automatically upgraded by the NRA. A very astute man, named Bobby Perril, told me one time to adapt myself to the gear and rifle, not to expect it to adapt itself to me, and I would be able to shoot. It worked. And the lessons spill over into just about every other aspect of shooting. NPA is NPA, no matter where or what yer shooting. The SAPD decided to send me to AR-15 school a few weeks ago to teach me how to shoot the thing. The instructor kept telling me that the sling would just hinder me in real situations. And that standing to prone maneuvers would only get me killed. After banging out four consecutive perfect compbat scores, well under time, using the "useless" and "slow" sling, I ended up instructing half the class after hours to get them through the course. Stick it out.

Off the soapbox for now. No flame intended, just encouragement. Dirty Steve, we on for Tuesday?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 01:43:58 (ZULU)

Bruce, unless you want only the motherfucking Tangoes to get out, you don't give shit warning. Only the assholes can respond quickly to escape. You're gonna kill "innocent" civvies any way you go, might as well kill the shitheads when you decide to do it right.

Napalm has been improved on since Dow messed with it. Don't officially call it napalm anymore, but still works well.

We need to have AC-130's on 5 min strip alert when a bird goes down. You can "push back" the savages that try to get at our men(yeah, that means killing the motherfuckers) AC-130's with the 25mm Gats and the 40mm's can stay above 8-10k ft AGL and that keeps then out of manpad height for the most part. 25mm HEI at 4K rds per min from two guns does wonders to improve people's attitudes. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 03:11:43 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Did you get my e-mails?

Local mini-Palma match today, shot my personal best 447-21X. Does not sound too impressive but we shoot MR-63 at 300, 500, and 600 yards. Shot one 9 and one 8 at 600. Shot my second clean 500 yard score, only person to do so with factory barreled rifle. Highest score by 4 points, at our local match, with factory rifle.

My apologizes up front, rant coming up.

Hmmmm......my point......don't complain about the F-class rules, too specialized of equipment, it is benchrest laying on the ground, etc. Pony up boys, you want to shoot F-class then shoot F-class and quit yer whining. I beat custom barreled, tight necked 6BR ( okay, so he was fire forming brass in new barrel for upcoming big match in Phoenix but I still beat him) by 8 points. Using 70 HBV bedded into the HS stock, 175 JLK bullets, Lapua brass, CCI BR2, RL-15, and Mk 4 16X with MD. Usually, this gentleman beats me by 2-3 points and 10 Xs. I'm sure I'll hang with him real close when my 6BR arrives. I'm also sure that when my wildcat 6.5 arrives he will start bringing his high dollar 6.5X55 because the 6BR is not going to hang with the 6.5. Yep, sounds like an equipment race and to a degree it is. However, if you don't dope the wind correctly, it doesn't matter. BTW, I was holding off 1 to 1.5 MOA on either side of the X depending on where the flags were. In other words there was a 2 to 3 MOA wind change for almost every shot! Sure, I got lucky a couple of times and could use the same hold for two rounds then have to change.

I'm going to attend Badlands in the spring. I'm not going to whine about the needed gear or that the rules are not the same as F-class so can't we just change this and make an F-class version of tactical. What do you mean that I'm not going to get to use my Sinclair front rest and rear bag!! Why limit scopes to 10X for F-class? Hell, I'm struggling to see the 10 ring (6" at 600 yards) with my 16X much less do a precision hold. 10X scope is fine for big targets like men, deer, elk, etc. but 2.75" X ring on MR63 at 600 yards?! NOT!! Bipod only, 223 or 308 only, hmmmmmmm......sorry guys, just seems kinda.....dare I say.....wussy to me. I went back and see where I dropped 3 points and 2 X (434-16X) from my "normal" score (437-18X) by using a bipod last year. 5th Sunday we get to shoot an "extra" F-class match, most times we try something different on those days; just for grins and grimaces.

F-class is to learn what your rifle/ammo is capable of. Your not able to hang with the custom barreled guys!?!? Then shoot for your personal best and take the glory when it happens; it will happen, their human too. You would probably be surprised if you shot off of a front rest and rear bag at what you could learn about doping for wind. You may also learn that your ammo is not as good as you though. Hey, its happened to me pleny of times!! Just the pot calling the kettle black.

When I head to Badlands I'll be taking a tactical configured rig, not my F-class gun. Great excuse to buy more toys! Thinking trued 700 BDL, M24 contour Rock 5R, Mk4 10X (not sure if M1 or M3 at this time) for starters on the tactical rig. Stock is not yet determined. Hear lots about the McMillians but just not warming up to them. Don't really like the HS tactical stocks either. Looking at LoneWolf stocks but having some difficulty in getting information from them.

I've calmed down some, sorry to have wasted anybody's time. Just that yesterday when I was checking my loads/zero one of the highpower guys was there and told me that he had a 30-06 hunting rifle that could outshoot the 308 I had. Hmmmmm....seems kinda funny that he shot 380 points with his fancy smancy M1A on targets that were 1 MOA X ring at all distances!! He was kinda quiet when scores were announced. I'm still waiting for him to show up with his 30-06.

Back to cleaning and prepping for the up coming Phoenix match.

May you all be safe!!

FCS
NM, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 03:52:19 (ZULU)

Bolt- Perhaps you might want to try the Creedmoore Basics coat. It's lighter canvas with rubber elbows, cuff and support side waist area. Much lighter and more movable than the hardback types. It's what I use the most. It moves with you and it's not very heavy at all. Just a thought.

Jody- Battle rifle match...I like it and would love to shoot one. How or do you plan to keep it competitive in rapid for the bolt gun (03's, Krags etc)?

I just got a letter from my bud in A'Stan. It seems his team did a assault of some T'Bans and managed to capture the last outstanding assassin left from the killing of Anwar Sadat. Hmmm you meet the strangest people when you show up to dinner uninvited....good job.

God Bless the troops.

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 04:03:20 (ZULU)

Badlands Shooting School:

Where can I go to get info on class dates and prices?

Thanks

Scott

Scott Chapman
Cheyenne, WY, - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 04:17:57 (ZULU)

Scott,

www.badlandstactical.net

Think it the information you are looking for is under courses.

FCS

FCS
NM, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 04:21:20 (ZULU)

All:

Just had to share this one with you. Child Bride is writing thank-you notes to mail tomorrow, and reminded me that I hadn't mentioned this letter from John in TX. He had done some work for a company that asked him if he wanted to have his fee donated to a charity. Excerpt follows:

"...I told them I had my own charity. When I explained, the line went quiet. I don't know if they thought I was bull shitting them, but as you can see, I wasn't."

He turned the fee over to me and the Child Bride to give more Goodies to the Grunts.

You folks are outstanding. The guys and gals in the sandbox gotta know that there is genuine support and admiration for them.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 05:38:46 (ZULU)

>>>>don't complain about the F-class rules, too specialized of equipment, it is benchrest laying on the ground, etc. Pony up boys, you want to shoot F-class then shoot F-class and quit yer whining.<<<

Uhhhhhh....who's whining? What did I miss?

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 05:44:22 (ZULU)

Gooch,

"... Be careful with "Quick kill". While it is possible to use many of the unaimed fire techinques up close and personal, some folks will try and stretch the limits and try to teach unaimed fire as a stand alone technique."

Stand alone with a sniper rifle? Not my proposal! Are you talking about pistols? The point of my research was is the vulnerability of most snipers to "up close and personal" encounters.

"Almost all of your training should be done using sights, although it may just be a flash front sight, you should still train with sights. As the speed picks up you will rely on the sights less and less up close relying more on conditioned reflexes than concious effort. Under stress you need to have the reflexes you develop using sights as your mind will be focused on other things."

Again no argument, most training with a sniper rifle should be done with sights and one of the techniques I mentioned is "Quick Aim" where a flash sight picture is obtained. What I was talking about here was survival training of a very specialized nature.

"One thing that confuses folks is that you can practice a certain drill (such as a plate rack machine) or a draw and shoot drill over and over until you can do it without sights. The problem comes when you are confronted with a new scenario that you cant rely totally on the reflexes/timing you developed on the drills you practiced."

Right, but without any training you have nothing to fall back on. The idea of training is to better prepare you for the unforeseen. I'm sure you have noticed how much easier it is to drop into a poistion with your natural Point of Aim after practice. Although in the field the circumstances will be different it is this practice that makes you a better field shot because you are making adaptations to previously learned techniques vs trying to learn a new technique in time of need. Another current post going on concerns "gamesmanship" and this is not what quick kill training is about, doubt it could ever become an olympic sport.

I am sure your remarks regarding legal issues have merit and I won't dispute that. My point is that most snipers are incapable of engaging a 25m target with their 15lb, 10X sighted rifle. Please refer back to Mr. Sain's post about the last three call outs.

BTO, I have no experience in the LE environment and my knowledge and interests have always been in the military realm of sniper employment.

Marc

Marc Palmer
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 07:13:25 (ZULU)

Marc. " My point is that most snipers are incapable of engaging a 25m target with their 15lb, 10X sighted rifle."

that would be why the Brits carry the sniper rifle on thier backs and an assault rifle in thier hands when stalking, the bolt gun gets unpacked at the last minute just before the crawl or move into the OP or FP or hide (call it what you want). Of course this gets mission specific tailored, and when i was in we stalked with the Browning L9 in one hand on most occasions,failing that it was a Sterling SMG usualy. Spec Ops units more often than not had a HK SMG or an M16 variant as the gun of choice for quick situations. of course all this extra weaponry does take its toll in weight to carry, but thats part and parcel of military ops i guess. Do the American spipers folow this same operating procedure? sniper rifle back packed and something quicker to use carried whilst on patrol or stalk? and I have to ask if there is any real need for a Police sniper rifle to weigh in at 15lbs plus though?

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 07:54:41 (ZULU)

Pete,

The extra gun(s) are dependent on individual tactics, command constraints, and availability. In lieu of extra guns or in case they were not at hand, QK could save a life or mission.

15 lb police sniper rifles sit real well, shoot nice tight groups, and have virtually no recoil... just as AI. Another question is do we need 15lb military sniper guns?

You got rubber grips for the L9?

You have in coming... Bob's yer uncle!

Marc Palmer
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 09:17:51 (ZULU)

Although I don't doubt all the padding and cinching has a purpose in the "Service Rifle" game.I don't think it has a purpose in real situations. You could put a shooter in a body cast fitted with the proper braces out front and probably shoot quite good. Sorry but I just can't get there from here. A good score in "Service Rifle" is exactly that..."A good Service Rifle score." It may help teach offhand shooting but it's not likely a sniper is gonna run around with all that stuff on. The rest of the story is... AR15's aren't nearly as accurate off hand as they are rested. The poorest rest will whip the best off hand shooting I ever saw.

I guess I said my piece on Iraq before it started. We need to waste Bagdad and any other strong hold of Sadamn's sympathizers if for no other reason to get the rest of the worlds' attention that we mean business in this terror war. HEll, I thought that was what we were gonna do. We walked right into it and I think all the Bush people knew it. What is happening now is enevitable given the past history of such things. Take Israel, Ireland, Vietnam or any other place where troops go in for occupation. Unless the point is made in advance, (eg. Germany, Japan) where the population gives up in general due to mind changing events like having your capitol bombed to hell or a Nuclear Holocast it's going to be this way. There's enough sympathizers outside of Iraq to keep this thing going for another 2000 years. We should expect losses from now on until every reminant of this thinking is gone and that ain't gonna happen. I hope it works out but it's not likely that it will ever stop being a place for Small arms attacks and car bombs, I just don't see anything that will ever happen to stop that. How do you stop suicide bombers. A. You don't.

Brogers
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 13:29:56 (ZULU)

Marc; "Do we need 15 lb Military Sniper Rifles?" A. Perhaps but scout Snipers don't need to carry em. Battlefield Snipers perhaps. Too bad that war isn't that neat that you can adjust for every occasion. We did a major improvement when we put dot sights on the AR-15's. For longer range a 800 yard rifle is adequate. We now have stuff that will go the distance but it's a crew served weapon. Most Sniper's seem to have more trouble moving slow enough than they have moving fast enough. But it's still a matter of Moving and lighter is better for that.

Peter; In the great Vietnam debacle, some snipers did carry a M-14 or M-16 but mostly the Spotter was charged with that. (Ed Kuger describes that in his book about that period.) For the same reasons mentioned above. You still have to move and move well. It's not a clear cut solution unless you combine both weapons. The M-14 Sniper rifles were about as close as you could get to doing that. However just like in Hunting there is no "Best" rifle for all occasion.

I'm just complicating the question.

Brogers
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 13:41:30 (ZULU)

Mk4,

Not you or Sarge from what I've read/seen. You brought your gear, set up, shot, and used the experince to learn. I see you using F-class as cross-training. I was ranting. There are those who use F-class as a tool and those who seem to want to convert F-class to a forum that they can compete in without spending any additional $. I have a problem with that. Doesn't matter what caliber your shooting, what front rest your using if you are unable to dope for wind your not going to win. I set up a rifle for one of the older guys shooting the local match. Bedded his rifle, developed a load, and had him shoot off of my high dolllar front rest/rear bag. Testing this load a 300 I shot a 10 round group that was right at one inch; easily would have shot a 150-15X but he shot a 146-7X because he has trouble reading the wind.

I have seen plenty of posts where people are complaing that F-class rules should be modified for tactical. Why? Have to be able to win before you can have fun? Kinda like IPSC, had to add so many differnet classes for open, limited, limited 10, production, etc. so that nobody felt left out. Want to make a bipod class and a any rest class, okay. Want to limit tactical to 223/308, thats kinda bull. More recoil, harder to shoot from a bipod. Want to bring out your 300 barrel burner to shoot a match, putting yourself at a disadvantage from the git go. Want to run your 260 from a bipod, seems like a good choice but to eliminate competiton because of caliber is no good.

Doubt that very many tactical shots are made from a nice, smoothed dirt surface. Shooting SERTs (self erecting rifle targets, i.e. praire dogs) it doesn't seem to matter if they get hit with 223, 22-250, 243, 25-06, or 110s from 308. Dead is dead. However, we are shooting at paper and learning to dope wind. I've shot the 223 to 600 and it shot great, don't think I'd want to try using it as a sniper rifle because the energy level is getting too low out there so why is the 223 acceptabe for tactical class?

Sorry guys, got a bad attitude. Going to work, that will fix that. Stuck with a pooppy situation, should make me realize nothing in shooting is as bad as what I've got at work!!

May the wind be steady......

FCS
NM, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 13:47:10 (ZULU)

Here I go again; When I heard of F class. I said "damn there's finally a class where rules won't eat it up." I thought the same thing happened to IDPA but....To restrict as to caliber or try to make it something else seems a little pointless. Nothing wrong with creating a Tactical class separately call it something else. But trying to get participants is pretty hard to do especially out west here. F class just beckons to me as "here we are come shoot and see how you can do!" I would welcome the opportunity to have a place to try my little piss ant .308 against something superior. Gives you an idea or what you got and what you don't. There will always be some shit head saying 'What's the matter with that dumb redneck trying to outshoot my Palma masterpiece with that little short POS'. Don't bother me much. But be prepared.

Brogers
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 14:15:16 (ZULU)

Ken M, brogers:

You guys have the idea.....I stand corrected.

We did Berlin, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The world was a better place afterwards.

I'm tired of our folks getting killed. I still mourn the loss of my friend on 9/11.

If it takes some "collateral damage", so be it. They already hate us. What are they gonna do, hate us twice? Better that they should fear us, and go running to our troops to tell them that a neighbor is building a bomb or has a SAM in his garage, to prevent Hell raining down on them later.

Off to Wally World and the Rez, with a pile of cash from the good folks on this forum. God Bless You, and our troops.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 15:08:29 (ZULU)

I'm done talking about Iraq and Afghanistan. With so many dying to protect freedom, I'm just gonna shut up and let my actions speak.

I will support the troops by voting, writing congressmen, volunteering at the VA, sending letters, cards and small gifts, and I will continuously echo what I have learned from Joe M.... the current battle is being fought here.... the US military has done their job...we need to shut up and do ours.

Best regards.

Jim

medicjim
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 16:42:42 (ZULU)

Joe M: "The more they talk about pulling out, the more the BGs take heart...someone ought to shut up the peace-niks."

Absolutely. The BGs, the Major Media and the Democrats have a common interest in defeating President Bush. If it takes getting American kids killed to hurt Mr Bush, the Democrats will encourage the Islamofascists to kill American kids. They don't care. None of thier kids are in the combat arms, and, as Clinton famously said, they loathe the military.

"Everyone knows you can't beat the US Armed Forces in the field, you beat them on the homefront. It is the objective of the BGs to destroy public support. Our esteemed crop of candidates are playing it out in the pre-primaries."

If cynical, psychopaths like Dean, Kerry and the Democrats' Congressional leadership said that we would see this war through to victory, the BGs would cave sooner and we'd stop losing these good young men. But Dean and Company don't want the BGs to cave. They want them to help destroy Bush. They are running the same game plan that they used in Viet Nam.

We Boomers were manipulated and used by Ho Chi Minh, empty-headed old Walter Cronkite and the scum that ran the anti-war movement. We've seen this movie.

We know that, if we follow the Democrats' wimp-out strategy, 9/11 was just the appetizer.

Al Qaeda is set up in Iran. We need to kill them and anyone who harbors them.

CDC'
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 18:09:29 (ZULU)

Neel of wee jang boo, your EOD kinfolk are well taken care of. Can't help myself; when I was between marraiges I dated a Cindy Bomb-girl Captain. Used to screw with her head with stray SF Training aids. Methinks she got too stressed hanging with me...never saw her again after the CS incident....women? Who can figure them! If she was good, she'd have defused the dang thing before it messed her car up! Check with DET-K or whatever they call themselves these days---there's a very good reason that their .50s do not sport SA glass.

Word on the CH47 crew is conflicted here--I can't get a straight answer! From FOXNEWS, I am thinking they brought it in controlled flight---but the Big aviator here thinks the two pilots died...has anything been confirmed stateside??? CJTF isn't putting names to the numbers in our channels yet (notification, and rightly so)---but us buds want to know too...

No packages yet...lagtime is taking it's toll. Had to send a SF contigent up north with a box that Johnny McF sent on his own---thanks to you, a lurker in TN, several troops will read something other than labels on their chow in their safe-houses on hell's back forty!

This group of folks amaze me to no end. If this place had a street address, I'd move here!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 18:11:00 (ZULU)

Jim M...

Well said.

PJC
Upstate, SC, US of A - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 18:20:39 (ZULU)

I'm not real sure about all this F-class hoopla.

But it SOUNDS like you folks are wanting to keep it simple and just have fun learning to shoot better at distance.

That's what we do at the Mudville matches. I'm sure this type of match wouldn't be "specialized" enough for some, or "basic" enough for others.

The description of the match is in the archives, but this is what keeps US challenged;

Any rifle, any sight, front rest allowed (bipods or pack). Rear rest allowed.

You carry EVERYTHING to the lines. We DO NOT drive to the lines. We WALK!

200,300,500,600,800,900,1000 yds. 3 shots each. couple minutes prep time and a coupla minutes for 3 shots. NO sighter rounds. No practice rounds. Nobody SPotting for you either.

3 shots while the target is up and then it goes down. Target comes up w/ spotter discs showing for your group.

Target is a B-27 sil.

Yes, there ARE people that can shoot xs on that target at 1000 yds w/ just a bipod and a 10x loopie M3 (and a beanie bag and hand under the toe). Shit, I'VE even done it once in awhile.

We sometimes repeat the 5, 6,(head shots only for the 6) 8, 9 and 1k lines with 3 more rounds each. Other times we do the course to 1k, then back to the 6 for headshots only, and then four stages of a "Walk-down 3 round rapid fire in 40 secs-standing to prone" from somewhere short of the 500 to just above the 200.

Nasty wind conditions, shoot in the rain. Hotter'n hell in the summer. ALWAYS a wind.

Any way, there's probably some I left out, but that's the general idea.

There are some fellas shooting the 338,s and such. Fag-mags, '06s, 308s, 6s,... '1as, AR10s, Mostly bolt guns. box stock all the way to "towed".

Mike Miller shoots up there once in awhile. I get there when I can.

Big boomers are doing VERY well d/t the shooter's talent AND there wind'bucking ability. But once in awhile us 308 folks get lucky reading the wind and show 'em some pretty tight groups in the center of the black. HA!

ANyway, this sounds like what some of you are looking for. Just thought I'd mention it.

"Grasshopper" did a good write up on it in the ARchives. Look it up.

You all TAKE CARE!

Semper-Fi!

PS. Didn't shoot this weekend. Married off my middle boy on sat. DAMNED good party.

What the hell is it that makes us old farts so interesting to the young hotties? I SURE don't mind, though. heeheehee.

One little chickie came all the way from New Orleans. grew up there. No accent except "Y'all". HOT! Laughed at my jokes and stories.

Ah to be 28 single and savvy...

But I'm 50, fat, and a grandpa! HA!

Semper-Fi!.

Spud

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 19:19:29 (ZULU)

Iran has to defeat us in Iraq or the Iranian leadership is doomed. They kill our soldiers because they have to. In the meanwhile, State and the CIA are kissing up to them. They die or we lose.

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200311030801.asp

CDC'
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 19:36:19 (ZULU)

I don't usually get into these but here's my 2 fwiw.

HEAVY COP RIFLES: Depends ...

If a guy walks out with a hostage at 185 yards and is gonna give me all day but a itty bitty look at him ... I want my AWP or Conring 700.

If he comes out running at 50 yards firing a pistol or shotgun ... I can make do with a bolt gun but would just as soon have an AR/red dot/low mag scope/illum ret. Same deal on an active shooter.

If I had to swim it or hump it and do the traditional sniper thing from a COP STANDPOINT (and all that entails) - an LTR or "baby back Rock" would be the shit.

If he's 25 and in ...

Hell whatever, I'll shoot the SOB with a Jimmy Dean sausage from a spud gun. Just don't matter ...

Thing is ... life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get. You cannot script a SWAT callout. Doesn't matter how "Tactical" you think you are. I hate that word. Waaay overused anymore. That macho stuff won't get ya home.

If you try and play it too close to a script that YOU wrote, the BG (and Murphy) always seem to be on a different sheet of music and you're friggin' toast.

The best swordfighter doesn't have to worry about the number two swordfighter. He's better served worrying about a novice who will do something totally unexpected ... BKs Tactics 101.

Class 102 ... A drunk, jilted CoonAss with a .22 will kill everything big enough to die. Including a SWAT team ... lol (but true).

I ain't a real smart guy but I try and think outside of the box, adapt, overcome and be as ready for the unexpected as I can and ... I'd rather have a quick thinker and decent shot with me than a slow witted guy that shoots lights out.

Usually though, and this is only in my experience, the quick thinkers usually have the weapons handling skills to go with their wits.

Best to be competent with whatever you have in your hands.

just 2 centavos from no damn body.

edited: Hell, now that I think of it ...

I myself have been a drunk, jilted Coon Ass with a .22 ... lol.

Never hurts to know your element I guess.

brian k. sain
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 19:43:41 (ZULU)

BKS; I'll accept that. Hand in your paper. :)

CDC; Interesting article. Very clearifying.

Brogers
Monday, November 3, 2003, at 20:58:51 (ZULU)

Spud,

It don't get better after 50! My favorite song is by David Grisman and Jerry Garcia: "Old and In the Way."

Now a report from the Treasurer of the "Goodies for the Grunts" fund:

Beginning balance as of 03 Nov. 2003: $629.02

Expenditures at Wally World: $ 209.60

Contribution: $200.00

Balance: $619.42

Not for long! Off to Art's for jerky and the Rez for Cope and Skoal (have to order both in advance, though).

CB and I damn near filled a cart at Wally World with camo duct tape, penlights, disposable cameras, baby wipes, pipe cleaners, Chapsticks, Slim Jims, etc., etc......plus she got a bunch of mini-Tootsie rolls yesterday when the local store had a clearance on Halloween candy.

But the biggest gift of the day was that contribution.

Two one hundred dollar bills stapled into a cover sheet, accompanied by a wonderful letter from a gentleman in CA who prefers to remain anonymous.

I'll be damned if his generosity will remain anonymous, though.

His letter read in part:

"I know that you have said that you will cover the shipping of supplies to the troops but I for one want to go on record by saying that there are no strings or expectations associated with my donation. It is for you to use as you see fit; be it shipping expenses, goodies for troops, gas for the vehicle to get back and forth from the various shopping spots or lunch or dinner for you both after a long day of shopping."

The shipping thing stands.

Gas won't do me any good, I drive a diesel.

Child Bride is one helluva cook, and if we want to have a meal out, we will do so, but I grill a better steak on the patio than I can get in a restaurant.

We are deeply touched by your letter, and by your very generous contribution, but every nickel of those two C-notes goes to the guys and gals who are defending my cushy life here. That's how I see fit to use it.

May God Bless you.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 22:10:08 (ZULU)

Quail Shooting went well. I missed two, both times I didn't have my cheek down on the gun and shot over them. I needs scattergun practice. Do I get credit for the bird that walked up to the dog on point after I shot another one. When he was told fetch he retched down and grabbed the one right in front of him. He was still made to get the other but was curious if that counts as a bonus bird for me :)

Chuck, Game on tomorrow same bat time, same bat place.

We should shoot a MF that jumps up and down on our wrecked craft. He shows himself to be a sympathizer treat him for his contempt with 175 gr diplomacy.

Dirty Steve, out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 3, 2003, at 23:33:52 (ZULU)

Major Joe, Bruce Robinson

Joe.. I have a package about put together, been out of town hunting and TAD for the Navy... Duct tape, Skoal(5), Copenhagen(5), Red Man(3) and other smaller stuff, Sharpies & ???. I'll try to get it out this week but am having a triennial inspection by a bunch of admin misfits for no immediately apparent purpose other than to justify their position so I'm obliging with copious near-truths and obfuscation. I'll need to transfer my efforts to Bruce as I'll be going all over the place for the Navy and out of town a lot for the next year or so and feel a need to help out.

I'm headed up the Eau Claire to visit my mother-in-law, distant relatives and a few people I actually like (friends) and also take a whack at killing off a small herd of deer...

Bruce.. I believe I'll need to begin sending funds to you... I didn't want to miss out on the excitement of sending assistance to the troops but I can't keep a good supply timeline and you're certainly the larger supplier. If there's anything you can't get (unlikely of course) let me know and maybe some of my cronies can dig something up.

take care all

respectfully

Dave "Doc" King
U.S. of A. - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 00:27:21 (ZULU)

Folks this has been a VERY VERY BAD day and I want your assistance. My daughter, who lives in Kentucky, was involved in a VERY bad car wreck this morning and is in the Trauma Unit at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, TN. Wife got out of here a few hours ago and should be in Nashville around 9pm their time.

Reports from my son-in-law are better than when she was in the local hospital but she is still a very hurt young lady! Grandbaby #2 was in his carrier in the back seat and didn't get a scratch, probably didn't even know what happened!

CT was negative - that's a GOOD thing! She is responsive but intubated - glad she CAN'T talk or what she'd be calling them for that, OH BOY, as well as other tubes - medical type folks you can guess!

Anyway what I want is a lot of prayers! It appears that she will be alright but will take some time - lots of broken bones!

I know how this group can come together when needed and right now I need you'all

I thank all of you in advance for your thoughts and prayers!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 00:43:21 (ZULU)

Doc,

Pile it on! You should see the grin on the Child Bride when she's packin' up them boxes, or spendin' other folks' money at Wally World!

Dirty Steve,

You probably missed that bird cause you were shooting an over/under. Your eyes aren't stacked one over the other, are they? That's why side-by-sides work so well. If you covet that Parker, subscribe to the Valencia County newspaper and watch the obituaries, like so many other DR posters and lurkers do. They're all waiting for my name to come up, so they can high-tail it out here for the yard sale!

I plan on making you all wait for a good while, though......

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 00:51:36 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Prayers are on the way.

Doc Holloway (The other Doc)

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 01:07:48 (ZULU)

Sarge' we are all with you man. Anything we can do...

Brogers
Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 01:10:56 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Sorry to hear the bad news.

Your daughter just went on top of the prayer list here. Our prayers also to the doctors and nurses that are attending to her.

Mk4
What is the price of Freedom worth to you?, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 01:17:38 (ZULU)

Sarge.. Sorry to hear about your daughters accident. Prayers are on the way…May God bless and give comfort to you and your family. Thank God that grandbaby #2 wasn’t hurt.

HDR
OK, - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 02:11:37 (ZULU)

Sarge;

Prayer has been said.

Battle Rifles;

There won't be any rapid fire. This is to allow Krags(side mag) and trapdoors/other singles to compete. The time is 10 rounds in 15 minutes. This is to give enough time for rifles that can't be clip loaded since magazine rifles have to be magazine feed.

I'll add classes as demand sees fit. There will probably be a carbine class added and maybe a musket class for the local re-enactors if they want.

The main idea is to give owners of battle rifles a competition that will be fun and not overly serious. Heck, the only thing you need is rifle and ammo.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 02:25:12 (ZULU)

Sarge, Your family will be in my prayers. Car seats are great. Every one needs to use them. I handled a roll over the other day and a 1 & 2 yr old were in the car. Neither one had a scratch.

Bruce, How much is a yearly subscription to that paper? Haha. Guess I should hit some of the Estate sales around here. Lotta money in this town. There is an old, old side by at the gun store. I gave it a quick once over but not an in depth look see. It's proofed for nitro shells. Guess that may date it as purty old. I belive it was an old Ithica but I may hve just been talking about Ithicas when I picked it up. Very little bluing but no real dings on the stock. It could be a restoration of love project. Unless of course I am now in your will. ;) Just pulling your leg!

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 02:27:31 (ZULU)

Sarge.....

Best wishes for your youngun. I know what you mean by the 'other' tubes. Had to help with a couple during my EMT clinicals. I can't imagine much worse than being I-tubed AND awake. Young folk heal quickly, your daughter is in great hands up there. Heard many many good things about thier trauma program. Wish she was here at Bowman Gray and I could help out.

Steve........

I never could hit with an O/O. I went through a couple but there was just sompin about not being able to see the second barrel that must have brainf--ked me.

Dennis....

The Muddville stuff sounds right up my alley. I have to admit it does get a tad boring sitting at the same yard line all day.

Time for my beauty sleep, Bolt out!

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 03:32:44 (ZULU)

Sarge. I'm thinking of your daughter and your family, i wish her a speedy recovery. best regards .Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 06:44:01 (ZULU)

Marc, rubber grips for the L9, yep i got some rubber grips, a couple of spare barrels and slides, an ambidextrous safety, some spare mags infact i gave several of every spare part of the weapon, exept i don't have an L9, i wanted an L9 (high power) and my ex wife bought me a Browning BDM, but if figured not to look a gift horse in the mouth and i still have the BDM, haven't had the heart to swap it. I haven't been able to find screw on rubber grips for it but i have a rubber thing that slides over the other grip and the frame, i hardly ever use it, usualy only for tracking wounded pigs in thickets, and as such i'm not much of a pistol shot ( i got out shot by a female work mate not so long ago, who had never shot anything ever), I'll manage minute of charging mad hog at 10 yards, but i need some practice, i realy need some practice, maybe i'll yake the pistol along to the range next time.

Dirty Steve, "We should shoot a MF that jumps up and down on our wrecked craft. He shows himself to be a sympathizer treat him for his contempt with 175 gr diplomacy." yep. i'd agree with that, we Brits would call that particular 175gr projectile a 7.62 Fu## Off Tablet. and it works wonders to cure a bad case of lack of respect.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 07:01:19 (ZULU)

Sarge,

My prayers include your daughter too, but there's one for the mom and dad in there as well.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 08:29:45 (ZULU)

Ref: Downed Chopper

Back during the Cold War it was our policy not to fill a CH-47 with PAX. It would appear this bird was at max ACL with 33&3. I don't get it. We used to joke about having to use a whole page of a Casualty Feeder Report for just one crash. It ain't no joke now. Were they downed by SAMs or RPGs???

Ref: Viruses and Stuff

I spent several hours cleaning up my laptop last night. I'd like to meet the creators of some of these little software bugs. I'm sure I could persuade them to stop.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dade)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 11:51:56 (ZULU)

Sarge, Adding you to the prayer list and your daughter as well.

Jody C.

Would love to shoot that kinda match. Also got the package yesterday. Thanks.

Lt.Chip,

Schutzhund trainers are like anything else, go find one you can work with. I've had a Shutz 3 for goin on 5 years now and wouldn't take any amount of money for him. He can track, growl and bite on command or lay down and play with kids in the neighborhood. He's like a well behaved kid, it don't make him a robot.

Been busy. The M118LR ammo tracks the the 30-06 dial real well at 50-60 degrees around 1000' MSL. Had a chance on Sat. to thoroughly test it and the Varget(44.5/210M/Lapua/2.810 loads side by side. Not much difference at all. I love having a 1000 yd range 3 hours away.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 11:52:01 (ZULU)

Major Joe, email coming your way via SC mail. Let me know if you received it.

Thanks

Keith

Keith
North central , WV, - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 12:34:24 (ZULU)

Sarge, I too will join in praying for your daughter and family. The thing that I have learned is that it is a long haul when in this type of situation. My stepdaughter, now age 15, had to have her colon removed at age 12, and after a couple of years in the hospital, in and out, and several surgeries, at first to save her life, removal and a bag on her side, and then ultimately a "reconnect surgery" so she now is normal but without her full intestine, she made it, but I will (cannot) forget where the doctor told us as she was in serious condition that she may not survive. The greatest thing is to think of it as a long time of recovery like in a long marathon, but with God's help she and you will no matter what deal with the situation and make it.

Robert Tschiemer

tschiemer
ark, usa - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 12:38:34 (ZULU)

Sarge: Will put your daughter's case in front of Father later today. Remember, the "prayers of a righteous man availeth much." Maybe mine might might work as well. Bruce, you told Dirty Steve that his eyes aren't stacked one on top of the other. Perhaps you should meet him before you make rash statements. He is, after all, from West Virginia.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 12:49:32 (ZULU)

FCS...Most firing points are not "smoothed dirt surfaces".

That was the reason both ASCs emphasized field shooting positions, and UKD targets varying in size from 7/8" square tiles to steel that was 23"x32"..We didn't care what you shot or used, as long as you could carry it. We had some very uncomfortable firing points, not to mention weather that was made to order, both years, that provided truly trying conditions that tested both gear and shooters.

outa here

Markwell
Sunny and in the 70s in the Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 13:35:16 (ZULU)

Sarge, prayers made for your loved one.

Joe M, several care packages coming your way shortly, I'll make multiple "smaller" boxes this time instead of the 65lb. back breaker!

Stay safe,

drmarc

Marc Williams

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 13:39:53 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

That's I-T-H-A-C-A. About 20 miles from my house.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 14:05:46 (ZULU)

Sarge

Hope all goes well for your daughter and your family, I wish her a speedy recovery as well. Best wishes Dry

Dry
uk - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 15:21:06 (ZULU)

Sarge - You have my sincere best wishes for your daughter. I'm hoping for a short hospital stay and a quick return to 100%.

Markwell - ASC is a test of the whole shooting package. I have significantly improved the 180lb, weak link in my system. Many, many thanks to you, Rod and your gang for a unique opportunity to 'commune with nature'.

medicjim
Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 16:43:25 (ZULU)

Sarge, my prayers are with you and your daughter.

Bruce R. and HOGs, just a heads up. I have a new supplier in England that advised me that another company, called Hunters Of England, has copied my sling. Its an older design of mine. They got the design by purchasing one sling and then making copies. Fuckers claim in add they developed my sling design. When I called and talked to the punk owner he said "Tough you cant touch me over here" One day I will take a ride over to England and say hi. When my contact sent me a copy of the Rip Offs Of England add, they also had an add for Mildot Masters. I wondered if they ripped these off also? Bruce thought you should know. Noticed they also copy Black Hawk/Eagles stock pad and claim the invented it also. Funny that has a US Patent. POS's for sure.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 17:04:19 (ZULU)

"If it takes some "collateral damage", so be it. They already hate us. What are they gonna do, hate us twice? Better that they should fear us, and go running to our troops to tell them that a neighbor is building a bomb or has a SAM in his garage, to prevent Hell raining down on them later."

Ralph Peters said it best:

"For a superpower to think small, which has been our habit across the last decade, at least, is self-defeating folly. Our responses to terrorist acts should make the world gasp."

--Ralph Peters, from When Devils Walk the Earth

Don Smith
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 18:44:30 (ZULU)

Folks,

Spoke to DFAS in St. Louis today, inquiring into the status of the payment for the shipment of my product, ordered by Picatinny Arsenal, on contract # DAAE30-01-M-1461, which went out priority mail on 10 July 2003.

Turns out the PO was not signed off until 03 Oct. 2003, and I was told today that payment was scheduled for 24 Nov. 2003. And it ain't for no small chunk of change.

I understand Joe M.'s frustration at dealing with bureaucrats and REMF's.

These lazy desk-bound bastards have a ton of excuses for not paying me, and the date keeps getting pushed back. Supposed to be within 30 days from receipt, which was just a few days after 10 July, as I sent it Priority......(to quote Pat, "HA").

But I notice that the IRS cuts me no slack when my quarterly tax payments come due! I am to the point of demanding money up front before I ship to these weasels again.

Somebody needs to take a stick to these people.

Makes you appreciate folks like Joe a lot more, don't it?

Off to Albuquerque to pick up the jerky. I will NOT wait for four months to ship it to Joe!!!!!!

Rant (temporarily) off. Thanks for letting me vent.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 19:30:53 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Hey man, sorry to hear about your daughter's accident, glad to hear little one came thru unscathed..Tell your daughter and the rest of the family we're pulling for her!!

Mikey,

Undude, get me the name and number of that scheister, mate..Word spreads fast thru the gun trade industry here, let me know the story...

Jon,

I just got your 'Vindaloo' email now, so I won't be able to meet ya for a curry last Saturday...Bloody hell..Will have a read thru it here in a minute..

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 19:45:26 (ZULU)

I want to thank everyone for the posts, e-mails and prayers! THe BOSS was listening and here is the latest. She's off the vent and has had the breathing tube removed - this is a VERY good thing, son-in-law says when she talks sounds like our oldest grandson (4yo)because she did loose 3 teeth. Cutting back on her pain meds - also a good thing -but still in some pain - gee really :-) Looks like they are going to do surgery on her leg either Thursday or Saturday, typical docs can't make up their minds. Plastic surgeons are suppose to be in this afternoon to look at the facial fractures and decide what they want to do about them.

To those that don't have experience with the medical system this might seem like she's still not good BUT those of us in the system know that these things are very good signs and she is doing a lot better than yesterday!

We again thank you all for the responses and prayers - keep those up!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 20:01:09 (ZULU)

Glad to see your daughter is making good progress Sarge. There are a lot more lurkers here than posters so I'm sure the man upstairs has been getting a bunch of messages asking for a favor for her.

Keep us posted on the progress, she'll be on prayer lists till you take her off.

take care, Tony

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 20:18:58 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Prayers have been said and will continue to be said. Blessings upon you and your loved ones. It was good to read that things are already changing for the better. Stand strong my friend. We are all believing with you for the very best outcome.

JWL

John Levens
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 20:29:25 (ZULU)

Airway, Breathing, Circulation, (no mental) Deficits...talking to the kiddos....(key ingredient to healing a parent)

Docs arguing about a leg injury...

all good signs.

Hows the internals...all still ticking, no leaks in the plumbing?

Sounds like she's got the scary part of trauma in her past.

Great News Sarge...Great news!

Hope her rehab is short..

medicjim
Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 21:10:01 (ZULU)

Jon, JR, PeteR, Dry, etc...

Thought this was pretty funny....you guys and your sheep.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/newstmpl=story&cid=817&ncid=757&e=10&u=/ap/20031104/ap_on_fe_st/britain_ram

or click on my name

medicjim
Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 21:26:03 (ZULU)

arrgg.. the dreaded double tap..sorry

medicjim
Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 21:26:33 (ZULU)

Sarge,

My prayers are with your daughter and the rest of your family as well. Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 22:20:17 (ZULU)

Bruce,

I know we've been caught late in payment a couple times at the unit. Expenditures over a certain amount are supposed to be routed through PWGSC, and they often take a long time to do what they're supposed to. Sometimes long enough that the current fiscal year passes, and the budget for the items purchased disappears entirely.

That said, if your invoice was net 30 days... charge them interest on the overdue payment. Just like the IRS would on your taxes ;) Might be interesting to see what happens. We've had it happen to our unit, and HQ paid it with nary a whimper.

Jeff C
NB, Canada - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 22:38:42 (ZULU)

Back from ABQ with a huge box of jerky (some habanero in there, so y'all be keerful!). Art sends his best and his prayers for the troops. He has resurrected his program of specially marked bags for $2.00, half of which goes to the Red Cross, and a local country radio station then ships the jerky to the troops. Flags all over his store. Pleasure doing business with this gentleman.

Should get the Cope and Skoal tomorrow, then everything will go out to Joe.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 22:55:44 (ZULU)

Sarge

Glad to here things are OK May GOD be with you and your family.

JOE M.

The pilot of that Chinook lived in Genoa which is only a few miles from me. Makes things hit home even more.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 23:02:09 (ZULU)

Mike Miller-if you have a patent, check with the British Embassy about possible infringement. It could be that you can do something (but it may not be cost effective).

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 01:21:56 (ZULU)

Sarge, glad to hear she is doing better. I will keep up the prayers.

JR, here you go. The HOE Co., is just abounch of rip offs. The following is straight from the add sent me:

Hunters Of England

PO BOX42

Cheshire

SK14 4FF

Tel/Fax 0161 366 7631

Funny they use "H.O.E." as a short version of their name.

If you get to meet up with them suggest a Cage Match between us.

If anyone in England wants to get my slings and not crappy knock offs, contact Global Rifle at www.snipersystems.cp.uk

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 01:24:27 (ZULU)

Made my own "Goodies for the Grunts" run to SAMS yesterday. Would've been easier to just send the check to Bruce but no use letting him carry the entire burden (I may on the next run ;))). Had to be in Lubbock anyway, so much the better. Had one very nice lady to help out and saved me the trouble of finding a few items. Told her I needed a big box of Christmas Cards as well. I let it out that most of the stuff was going to our troops. I almost didn't get away from her. Don't make any mistake about it, the commie/socialist politicians and the )&%$%&$_) liberals are bashing Bush and his efforts but the down-to-earth, salt of the earth, REAL people (like this lady) are behind our soldiers 100%.

Got to get these Christmas cards written and to Joe.

BTW, for anybody in the Lubbock area, there were 4 Starlite cases left (plus the display). Yup, that was AFTER I bought one.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 01:47:01 (ZULU)

Mike, ive heared nowt good about those lot at H O E, ive a few times heared the H in hunters bieng swapped for the letter C. Having had a couple of my own ideas/designes stolen over the years i can fully sympathise, it wouldn't surprise me if my last OC was working at HOE, The Global rifle guy seems straight enough, if i remeber right he had Mildot masters and the Angle cosine indicator for sale at the CLA game fair, you decide to come over and settle matters with them, well, ive a baseball bat you can borrow and do it in Roe Buck season, i'm sure me n Jon can organise something interesting for you, and as JR says, the gun trade is a small world over here, if JR me n Jon put the word out it should reach most far flung corners of the British Isles.

Spent the whole night(10 hrs) in one of my piggy O.P.'s, not a hog in sight, i thought i'd tempted one close a couple of times with the hog call but it just wouldn't come in to the bait, bet the sods hit it as soon as i left the woods at 06.00 to go to work.

Jon B, where you got to? whats all this about curry? get ready for some weizen beer with banan juice and some sauer kraut !!

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 06:38:28 (ZULU)

alright guys, time to lighten and brighten things up with a joke, or even two:

A little guy goes into an elevator, looks up and sees this huge guy

standing next to him. The big guy sees the little guy staring at him,

looks

down and says, "7 feet tall, 20 inch penis, testicles 3 lbs each, Turner

Brown".

The small guy faints and falls to the floor. The big guy kneels down and

brings him round by slapping his face.

Are you OK? In a very weak voice the little guy says, "excuse me, what

did

you just say to me?"

The big guy says, "When I saw the curious look on your face, I just

figured

I'd give you the answers to the questions everyone asks me. I'm 7 feet

tall,

have a 20 inch penis, my testicles weigh 3 lbs each and my name is

Turner

Brown."

The small guy says, "Thank God! I thought you said Turn Around...."

and the next ones just for Brian (him bieng part Irish):

Three Irishmen, Paddy, Sean and Brian, were stumbling home from the pub late one night and found themselves on the road which led past the old graveyard. "Come have a look over here," says Paddy, "It's Michael O'Grady's grave, God bless his soul. He lived to the ripe old age of 87." -"That's nothing", says Sean, "here's one named Patrick O'Tool, it says here that he was 95 when he died."- Just then, Brian yells out, "Good God, here's a fella that got to be 145!" -"What was his name?" asks Paddy? Brian stumbles around a bit, awkwardly lights a match to see what else is written on the stone marker, and exclaims, "Miles, from Dublin."

if they don't make you chuckle nuthin will. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 08:23:50 (ZULU)

Undude/Mike

You Make a typo error should read www.snipersystems.co.uk but they are very expensive midotmaster aprox 75Bucks and they are advertising a Klein reticle scope that looks like the Gen2 mildot from Premier. I just wish I lived your side of the big pond every thing is half price new.

Sarge

Good to hear the news hope things keep getting better.

Heard some bad news that a M1 got taken out either by some new weapon or by a very lucky RPG22, the crew was ok but they cant figure what hit it lets hope it was the later. Good luck all you chaps in the sand box.

Dry
UK - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 12:10:36 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln..Guide gun update..

Guide Gun is back from Marlin..14 day turn around..The pistol grip stock is much more comfortable than the straight one..Old parts returned under seperate cover..New wood is much better than the original. Will now have the stock trimmed to 12 3/4"LOP and ad a sorbothane recoil pad and either forge out the lever to accomodate a gloved hand{and my crooked finger} or purchase a Wild West lever..Wish the bbl. was 16" instead of 18" but you can't have everything...Guess I could have it trimmed also, and may just do it..My 16" .444 carbine is about the handiest rifle I own; the balance is just perfect! Guide gun may have to be a match..

MedicJim...have you loaded any cast bullets for you new .45-70 yet??

Take a look at Cast Performance..Their 455gr. gas checked bullet is the cats ass..Kicks a bit more than your .30-06 though.

Warm weather coming to an end today with rain on the way..No range time for the next few days...

Shotgun country....Pick up a copy of the new Surefire promo magazine...The push/pull recoil control technique is featured for those interested...It does work!!!!!!!!!

outa here

Markwell
The Alleghenies, WV, - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 13:39:27 (ZULU)

Has anyone had any experience with Skymaster weather & Wind meter are they any good. Thanks if someone can get back to me

Dry
UK - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 14:09:19 (ZULU)

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and prayers! Things are looking up - sort of - daughter has been moved a little ways down the hall to a Trauma Step-down bed - this is GOOD. They are going to do surgery on her leg and ankle tonight - a day earlier than originally planned - this is GOOD. However, her facial fractures are more extensive than originally thought and they won't be able to do any surgery to her face for about 2 weeks, want her to recover some from the leg & ankle surgery and the swelling to go down in her face. Will require an Optalhamology (sp) consult as the Plastic Surgeons seem to think her right eye isn't "sitting quit where it's suppose to be". Well DUH most of the bones around that eye are FRACTURED! The GOOD side is she has no obvious vision problem in that eye!

Thanks again all!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 14:18:14 (ZULU)

>>>>>Heard some bad news that a M1 got taken out either by some new weapon or by a very lucky RPG22, the crew was ok but they cant figure what hit it lets hope it was the later.<<<<<<

You may be referring to this:

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292236-2336437.php

All good news Sarge.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 14:26:08 (ZULU)

PeteL,

You got a baseball bat!!! You made sure it was licenced and registered right ;)))

Sarge,

Best wishes for a speedy recovery of your daughter. I live not far from Vandy, and my Daughter was born in the medical arts bldg there. Top notch everything!!

Chris...

Chris
Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 15:03:19 (ZULU)

MK4

Thats the detail lets hope it was just a lucky shot!

Sarge

Hope all goes well!!!!

Dry
UK - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 15:17:49 (ZULU)

Major Joe, incoming e-mail no attachments sir.

Keith

Keith
North central , WV, - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 15:47:28 (ZULU)

Markwell - Step one for me on reloading the Marlin 45 /70 is going to be a read through the Lyman cast bullet reloading manual (per Ken M). I've been preoccupied with several other projects...I will definitely check out your recommended projectile when ready. This rifle may drive me to PA to kill bambi next year....

The AR10 George Gardner built for me in .260 has given me fits trying to get really tight groups with heavy bullets (~140 gr) at under 300 yards (I have that sleeping bullet thing). I tried the hornady 95 gr VMAX the other day and shot some remarkable groups...five, five shot groups, all better than .5 MOA off the bench...the best group was one ragged whole at 100 yards. I ordered up a couple other light bullets, including the 123 gr laupa...so much to do!

I have also been playing with H4350 in the .260 bolt gun, working up a load approaching 2775-2800 fps with the sierra 142 or laupa 139... I plan to have dope for every 12.5 yards out to 300.... you never know when your gonna need to shoot something really small at some strange distance, like 73 yards <g>.

I also have a 1903A4 which I have been shimming to get it on target, while playing with a box of 155 gr sierras.... I've finally got her on target (took three 1/2 day trips to the range and a bunch of shims), now for some load tweaking.

medicjim
Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 16:01:52 (ZULU)

Dry, Sky Master is not very good compared to a Kestrel. Spend the extra if you plan on taking on a hump. If its just for range duty its OK. Kestrel is far better but alot more cash. Thanks for correction on web address for good company. As to cost, sniper systems is selling the originals not cheap copies. I have seen HOEs copies and frankly they are crap. In was given two of their copies of the Eagle Cheek Rest before I knew who they where or that they copied me, and frankly I threw the crap in the trash. If cheaper materials exist it would be a stretch to find them. I know when Sniper Systems sells my slings they wont be cheap but shipping form here costs a mint, plus I think I will go for an original Mil Dot Master over what ever they sell.

Pete, what ever would be the "C" for.LOL

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
ca, - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 16:14:29 (ZULU)

Have you guys ever passed up a stick at a gunshow, or estate auction. Then have it continue to tickle your imagination for weeks?

A couple of weeks ago I saw a Parker, underlever, hammer-gun. It was in shitty condition, needed repinned, had granola growing in the bores ; ) had the date 1875, crudely whitled into the fore-end.BUT

It's trigger pull was orgasmic, it's locking surfaces looked good, it had a silver and turquois cross inlaid in the fore-end, and a 2 1/2" round 1/4" deep cavity in the side of the stock. Like some kind of medalion was pried out. It was dated 1875 on the triggerguard. I can't help but wonder if it was one of the guns given to the chiefs to reward them for agreeing to move to the rez.

Whatever happened to Jefe', last I heard he was in Columbia dodging rpg's. And how did Endre get that little thingy over his E. ; )

It sure seems like the list of regular posters is getting shorter.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 16:29:15 (ZULU)

Bolt, I'm pretty sure I was missing because I din't have a good cheek to stock weld. I saw the rib sticking up with the bead sitting out there at the end with the bird in the air. As opposed to just seeing the bead and bird. Me thinks me shot right over them. I am selling my O/U and buying that old Side By I mentioned. It is an old "Lefever" blue book value at only 10% finish was about $750. So I'm going to get it, since the shop has it for $395. It shouldered much more natural and properly when I threw it up to my shoulder.

Pete, Gunna put that in my vocab for future use.

Don K. Ok ok, Ithaca. Didn't Charles Hunt just tell everyone that I'm from West "By God" Virgina. So don't esspect me to spell gud. And how come you haven't found me a neat old shotgun yet. I will settle for an Ithaca, AH Fox or a Parker. A Purdy would be acceptable ;)

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 16:50:21 (ZULU)

Mike

Cant, wasn't /wont knock your product but couldn't find it on thier site. But 75 bucks for the Mildot Master where you can get one in the USA for 28 and it cant be more than 15 bucks shipping thats still an extra 30 bucks for the same original product! looks like they make a good markup.

Thanks for the information on the Kestrel will surf for the info.

To all found some good software from Bullet proof software for all those who don't like the cookies that track which sites you have visited and also remove any spyware, well worth a look.

Dry
UK - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 17:33:13 (ZULU)

Steve; I would guess that you missed because your shot gun doesn't fit you. Cheek weld isn't really an issue with shotguns in my limited experience or at least the way I understand cheek weld it's a rifle thing. Not that your shot gun shouldn't be touching your cheek at all. When you bring that shot gun up with your eyes on target and not really bending your head to the stock, you should see right down those sights. Another biggie is that the barrels shoot right where the bead is pointed. You can check that out with a cardboard target. If you bring the shotgun to your shoulder looking ahead and the sights are off to the side or high or low even a very small amount you will miss more than you'll hit. You can find a gun that will fit but it takes some doing unless you want to spend big bucks and get one of those stock benders to fit you up. Now I don't want to seem like a 'know it all' but I'm a 'tried it all' and I spent years shooting guns that didn't fit. Been through sbs and o/us and everything you can mention. 2 out of box guns fit me. Beretta o/u and Benelli. Anything else is a waste of time. I shot 1100 remingtons for years. I should say I missed with 1100 remingtons and 870's for years. Go where they have lots of guns and try em all. In just a few minutes you will see what I'm saying.

Brogers
Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 17:35:59 (ZULU)

Markwell, i'm jealouse as hell, now assuming i can get parts sent to me in germany, which i doubt due to this state dept shit, id like to convert mine, now hos about yo take all the curved stock bits of yours, send em to me, labled as sewing machine parts and you just put the straight kit back on and send it back to marlin for another conversion? if your getting a wild west big loop lever, you wont need the marlin one, and i'm sure your like one of those wild west synthetic stocks, so you won't need your wood one?? am i trying hard enough yet????

Chris, is sure as hell do have a baseball bat mate( ive even got a baseball that i found just inside the grounds of the white house, but thats another story). Yes the bat has a story too, just to prove that all walks of life have assholes, i picked up our christmas tree one year, at the time i was a civilian employee working for a Garrison support team here in Germany, it was tied on the back of my toyota pick up, some jokers for soldiers( from 2 Amd Fld Ambulance, well known for bieng a unit with drug problems and full of mincers) decided to steal my tree, now i aint got nuthing against TWOCing (taking without owners concent) the odd xmas tree, but they could have at least gone to the woods and half inched thier own. Xmas trees as they are tend to drop needles, so i just followed the trail and it led to a barracks block, i could see my tree on the third floor, stood tall , if somewhat bare. now luckily i had a hunting buddy who lived in this block (as the doors where pin coded entry), i got him to go ask the blokes for my xmas tree back, joke over, no harm done. well he came back down stairs and they wheren't playing the game, if i wanted my tree i should go and get it, my hunting buddy had to go because he was due on guard parade, so i went up and was going to politely ask for my tree back, afterall, id been a young squaddie once, full of practical jokes, i was met on the stairway buy 2 of the culprits, one brandishing a very nice baseball bat, they where intent on my not getting my tree, and scaring me off, maybe they missjudged me for one of the German staff, because i disarmed the one with the bat, knocked 3 of his teeth out with it, knocked his mate down 2 flights of stairs with my fists, then went to get my tree, ah.. but there was another one waiting in the room, he went for me with an entrenching tool, the reach on the bat was longer than the little spade and i connected first, oh dear, he began to bleed from his nose, i put the bat through the guys stereo equipment, took my tree and went down stairs, by now a small crowd had gathered, but they let me pass. My mate on the guard was by now finnished with parade and came with the guard commander to check all was in order, he asked me if all was ok, "seems i got a spade, and a bat into the tree deal"i said, and proceeded to my pickup, the lesser injured tree thief then jeered and shouted from the safety of a 2nd floor window what an ass hole i was, unfortunately for him i knew which was his car, so i batted the lights out on it.

I made a full statement to the guard, i never had no more trouble, the tree thieves( 2 of em) got to spend the weekend in the garrison lock up and the 3rd in the garrison med centre under guard. all 3 where fined 1 months pay, got 1 months ROPS( inspection of full kit at the guard room morning an night, restricted to barracks).

Yes i have a bat, and it has a couple of tales to tell. Sorry for boring you all, above story is 100% true, i'd only been out the Army 11 months and i had an attitude and was fit and didn't take shit from anyone. Ive mellowed some since.

Dirty Steve, ive a few more gems for you, i'll put em together and mail you. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 17:36:42 (ZULU)

Dry, yep the prices seem steep, i'm going by the 1500 quid they want for the 4-16x50 S&B, but i bet you can haggle with the guy, tell him you can get a mildot master from the states for $28 and when you add shipping you come to a lot less than he is charging, see what you can haggle him down to, same goes for Mikes slings( I have one of the sniper rifle slings, dont ask me which, big heavey looks, wide strap, thing that attaches to your arm too) master Cockerham got me it, its a good piece of kit, its compfy to carry the rifle due to the wide strap amd i'll bet i could tow my jeep with it.

The guy has to make a profit, and if he is making more than 5 % profit after he's paid his expenses, ie bought stock, paid shipping etc he is getting greedy, i figured him for an ok bloke though, certainly one to strike a good deal.

These hunters of england lot got a web site? bet they are selling Brit issue BFA's too.

Off to pub for a sherbert and then tom the woods for a pig.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 17:54:00 (ZULU)

In Iraq we are involved in a regional conflict. Among our many enemies are the governments of Syria and Iran. If we create a stable and democratic Iraq, they die at the hands of their own subjects. They know this thus are organizing to defeat us. Sun Tzu badly paraphrased said, "...know your self and not the enemy and you'll win half the time."

Our intel on these guys is inadequate and our government hasn't demonstrated that we have the will to take the fight to them and win.

We have no choice but to do just that.

Playing defense inside Iraq is a recipe for a drawn-out and gruesome disaster.

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200311050744.asp

CDC'
Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 18:00:44 (ZULU)

Need more wind meter input.

Was ready to buy the Sherpa, after Jon's input, when I found the Kestrel 4000 on E-Bay for $189. The specs say that baro pres. is measured in "hectoPascal (mb)" millibars. If I'm not mistaken, in the US we measure in inches of Mercury (Hg). Could this be a unit designed for Europe? If this is the standard US 4000 is there a conversion factor to convert mb to Hg for input to a Palm ballistics program? If so, what is it?

Any input appreciated.

Don

Don Smith
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 19:24:24 (ZULU)

Test, Sorry.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 19:34:55 (ZULU)

Sarge, best wishes to your girl. Hope she gets out of there soon.

Jim, thanks for the link. I noticed the incident occurred in the NE of England, thats Pete's territory. I wonder if the timing coincided with Pete's last vist home. Could have been him racking up his score...LOL ;-)

Pete, remind me not to pinch your tree ;-)

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 21:48:55 (ZULU)

Guys got a question. And I'm not trying to start a pie fight and I'm definately not an expert on this by any means but, why the wind meters?? Granted they will tell you what the wind is at that second in time exactly where you are standing but won't tell you what the wind is 100, 500 or 1,000 yards down range. I know you already know that so this is why I'm asking!

For my 2 cents, and believe me it ain't worth more than that, I'd just spend time at the range, when I'm normally shooting anyway, and learn what the wind feels like, what it looks like and do that A LOT! Judge what it's doing at distance how does YOUR rifle shoot in these conditions, WRITE IT DOWN along with whatever windage you needed to keep your bullet strike at POA/POI.

THEN I'd take the money I'd spend on the meter and buy ammo!!

Again I'm no expert and no flame intended just my 2 cents worth!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 22:14:33 (ZULU)

Sarge,

I've been offering up prayers for your daughter. I guess you already know that at least at Vandy she's at one of the best units around.

Re: the wind meters. If they only measured wind, I might think you were correct, however even then I think they would have a value as a training aid. Besides the wind meter, they also incorporate other functions, i.e., altitude, baro pressure, temp, humidity. Every ballistic program I have, and if you count the demos it's several, all ask for that info. Even without the programs, you still want that info in your log for reference.

Ya can get altitude from a topo map although it's not always correct. I went to a local GPS ref. marker and my GPS matched the ref marker. Topo map was off by 50 feet. Is it enough to matter? I don't know honestly, but I'd opt for the accuracy. Same same with pressure and temp.

Don

Don Smith
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 22:35:09 (ZULU)

Went to the range yestaday cause the wind was down to 0. By the time I got there it was 20mph. but directly behind me by the heat waves. First group was 30" 3 shots. right on center target. By the time I checked it and got back the waves were waving right. I dialed in 4 clicks and shot 3' to the right about 7" group of 3shots. Sat down and did some figurin. Came up with 12 mph at about 40 degrees and decided 6' would be about right but then I decided the wind was probably blowing a bit faster in the center trajectory and since I was on the bench I dialed in 8' and shot 2' to the left 5 shots 9" group. too damn much, I knew better than that!. I dialed in the 6' I had calculated the first time and shot 10 shots in 20", 7 in X ring. Wind is a fleeting thing and screws with you everytime. I really wonder if it would help unless you computed it every damn foot accounting for elevation changes and changing ballistic coeficients all along the path. If I could just learn to take my own first guess and go with it... I might be able to getter done right. Oh yeah, that was 1000 yards with my 20" piss ant .308 and A-max bullets. 44 Grains of Varget just barely getting there. I need a WSM or SAUM I think for 1k yds. Any body tried this F- stuff with those calibers?

Brogers
Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 22:51:55 (ZULU)

Well folks things are looking up! They had to postpone her surgery, more serious came in, hopefully tomorrow but at the latest Saturday. Also they decided the facial fractures are not as bad as they originally thought and will heal better on their own so no facial surgery! Got to talk to her last night a bit groggy but sounded good -took my stress level down several notches! They say that if everything goes according to plans she very well could be home for oldest grandsons 5th birthday on the 15th! That will make everybodys day!!

Thanks again

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 22:54:06 (ZULU)

Just catchin' up.

Good to hear that your daughter is out of the woods, Sarge.

DAMNED good.

Still in my prayers. ALL of ya.

Spud

Dennis
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 00:15:41 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Hope the daughters doing better, prayers from all us hillbillys here in By-GaWd.

peteR
Big City, By-gAwD, - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 00:17:47 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Great news, sounds like this crew may have gotten an audience with the Most Merciful. Our prayers continue.

Boxes go out to Major Santa tomorrow. One full of the Wally World stuff, with overflow going into box #2, which has the jerky, Slim Jims, candy, and 50 cans each of Cope and Skoal.

Balance as of 03 Nov.: $619.42

Jerky Purchase: -$300.00

Reimbursement to fund for 2 ounces misappropriated: +$2.40*

Cope/Skoal purchase: -$292.50

Balance as of 05 Nov.: $29.32

*Necessary to snag two ounces of the jerky for QC.....the Habanero flavor was impressive.....that's when we decided that the Tootsie Rolls went into that box. Great antidote. Good solid burn from that batch!

Folks, I hope you know what a great thing it is that you are doing. We look into these two big boxes before taping them up, and we both grin like possums. Folks at the PO near about cheer when we bring 'em in to weigh and send.

CB and I are very proud of you all.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 02:42:56 (ZULU)

Sarge; ya' get some sleep tonight. Glad is what we are.

Brogers
Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 04:07:22 (ZULU)

Sarge, I am very glad that things are getting better for your daughter. I can't imagine how stressful that must have been!

DRY in the UK, save up and bargin for the original Mildot Master. It is a great tool made by a wonderful patriot!

Pete, I love your stories and jokes, though it is tough to tell which ones make me laugh harder! Thank you!

Michael
CA, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 06:17:42 (ZULU)

Bill, I used to shoot a Winchester 101 that I was well, outstanding with. Pointed like a dream. I could shoot 22-24's regularly at the trap range in Hiedelburg Rod and Bottle(Rod & Gun). The new used gun I'm picking up seemed to point well and had the right LOP as well.

Pete, I'll be waiting on them.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 07:24:33 (ZULU)

Ref: Wind Meters etc.

Granted a wind meter (Anemometer) can only tell you the wind velocity at the location of the instrument however this information can still be quite useful to the shooter. Knowing the actual wind velocity at your location can make it a little easier to estimate the wind along the gun-target line.

Andy and I use our Kestrels to train for wind calls like this: Andy will take his anemometer down range along with his radio. I view him through the spotting scope and take note of the mirage. He then radios me to tell me the actual wind velocity as he measures it.

Obviously the best way to learn wind doping is actually shooting but for us this isn't always an option so we find other ways to improve our skills.

The anemometer can also be useful for conduction drop zone operations.

The complete weather information suite offered by the Kestrel 4000 will allow the user to predict the weather for himself by watching barometric and temperature trends. For someone in the outback this can be a life saver.

Off to Phoenix.......

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 08:23:01 (ZULU)

re: hectoPascal ambient pressure measurement units

Canada switched to the metric system for weather several years ago,

so pressures reported in PASCALs are the norm here.

Don't know about the UK.

Most of the world uses the metric system now,

US is the biggest holdout.

Ironically, US military uses metric distances in mapping.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 12:09:27 (ZULU)

Sarge

Hope your daughter gets sorted out soon. Best wishes.

As for wind metering as Kevin R. Mussack said, Dead on it is good to use as a training aid and logging data but with other uses as well. Just admit it your just an old hand at reading the wind and us newbies need some help! ;-)

Michael Mildot Master

The one in the UK is the original!! but they are charging 75 bucks for it I will get a friend to buy for me in US and send it and save 30+ bucks!! They also do the Wind SWAG (silly wild arse guess) for 308 but at a reasonable price so why so much for the Mildot master?

Weather here ok for the time of year only been down to –3 but nearly got knocked of the motorbike last night because there was a silly Muntjack deer standing in the middle of the road thinking what the hell is that funny light coming towards me!! This is after getting last week a questionnaire from the British Dear Society asking us to report any deer road kill we see. Darn if we didn’t nearly have each other, got to laugh. Have a good one Dry

Dry
UK - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 12:32:13 (ZULU)

Sarge--your news is the one bright spot of my day! Brother, I am glad to hear the good stuff, so keep it coming. THAT is going in my prayers tonight!

Keith--received and replied. I won't say what exactly you are putting together for the troops---ain't my lane---but I want all here to know that you are one fine American. If we ever meet: I will render a salute before buying the beer.

Andy's Dad: Right on with the "lessons learned" TTPs. Unfortunately, most of the guys who had experience in protracted conflict (ie--the enemy adapts to your strength and finds your weakness)--these guys all retired by the late 80s and early 90s with their Vietnam era combat patches sewn proudly on their right sleave. Equally unfortunate are all the weenies running the show now who had the opportunity to learn something from those who "been there-done that"--but the kids (now senior) could not get past the gray hair or the slight pot bellies of these older warriors. So their wisdom, in some cases, fell on deaf ears. I can only thank god that even in my youth--I somehow knew the treasure-trove of knowledge offered by these guys and listened. To this day, I realize that I have much to learn from all I come in contact with, from Private to General. To believe otherwise is to fail my Army. This sir is a deep philosophical point. But it is one to make only because I watched this happen over time. IMHO, the Army that Pres. Reagan built (or the one Clinton dismantled) was the finest Army ever to grace this planet. But that is another story---just remember, it was the Viet-Vets who put that Army together...

Bruce--this must be the quiet before the storm. I hope the mailforce (USAF) isn't stocking the boxes up in Germany to deliver on a 463L pallet! With luck, they will even flow in so I can sort it out...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 14:03:20 (ZULU)

Shotgun country

Steve I know what your saying. Shotguns are a great mystery or misery however you want to look at it. I had 2 101's that were both good guns but the safety was hard to get off and I wound up carrying them open. Some of these new guns go on safety automatically when you reload them. Another pain to deal with. The best o/u I ever used was an old Belgum Browning they called the Superposed. And it happened to fit. Unfortunately it wasn't mine and I've never found another one like it. I'm sure you've probably shot more than I have anyway, don't know why I'm tellin you about it.

WIND COUNTRY

Kevin' your method sounds like a good way to learn wind without 'blowing' your practice shots if you don't mind a pun. The Barometer is mucho valuable tool also for tactical applications anyway. One of the guys here has a watch with Barometer/Temp on it. I can't remember who made it but it's about $125. Don't measure wind though. I guess anything that makes an attempt to solve the wind guess problem is worth the time. I've often wondered if there's a way to measure heat wave angles and speed get some kind of average that way. I don't know if those waves of mirage would show up on infared equiptment well enough to be metered. The device would probably cost big bucks to start with. You'd have to go to imaging I'd say to even break down the input. Maybe convert it to digital pixels for speed and angle measurement.

Brogers
Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 14:30:59 (ZULU)

Maj. Joe,

Incoming mail via Roster link, no attachments.

Doug Bourdo

Deputy Doug
K Town, Wi, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 15:39:58 (ZULU)

"I need a WSM or SAUM I think for 1k yds. Any body tried this F- stuff with those calibers?"

Brogers,

Have shot 1k with the 30-06 and 190SMK's. 29 MOA from a 100 yard zero works very, very well.

Pete,

After reading your baseball bat story, I figure the pigs are the lucky ones.:o)

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 16:35:23 (ZULU)

BRogers, you may not need another rifle for the 1k shots. It's a good excuse to buy another one, though! As if we need excuses....Will yours shoot good groups with a slightly hotter load? I load all my Winchester cases with 46 gr Varget for the 168 gr Sierras, and the Howa handles it just fine. Gets an average of 2730 out of the 20 inch bbl, so your rifle's length is not necessarily a drawback. Boudicca was making heart shots out to 900 with it, and was consistently on steel at 1k. I tried downloading to 44 gr like everone else was saying worked, but the groups at 100 opened up horribly, some going over an inch and a quarter. All I can think of is that Howa reams those throats same as they do for the Vanguards, so maybe the extra poudre makes up for any pressure loss....who knows. Experimenting with the 175's for 1k and better, will be going up to Badlands to play with them on the range for a few days, next Thursday. Anyway, try stuffing more powder in the cases. I (we) love that little 20-incher.....rifle.

Is there any REAL difference in the Rem 700 VS and PSS? Looks to be a good one at a friends gunshop for a good price. I know it's not a Howa, but I am a staunch supporter of Diversity when it comes to .308 rifles.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 17:51:13 (ZULU)

Counter G strategy:

http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens200311060900.asp

CDC'
Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 18:54:11 (ZULU)

REAL difference in the Rem 700 VS and PSS:

Charles, the "REAL" and only difference that I am aware of is the configuration of the stock. I have one of each and that is the only thing that I can see.

Sarge,

Must be something in the air. One of my co-workers is going through almost the exact same events as your family. And like your daughter's recovery things seem to be progressing better than first thought. I hope things continue to improve to the point of a full recovery for all.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 19:10:14 (ZULU)

love your site!

Has anyone had any dealing with CQB Products? www.cqbproducts.com ?

I placed an order with them a year ago, and they keep telling me that my rifles are almost here, but they never com through, and this was after a sizeable deposit. if you have had problems with them let me know, I sick my NRA rep on them and arrange other action.

-thank, john

johndaly@xbox.com

John Daly
carnation, WA, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 20:34:10 (ZULU)

Just checking in after a loooong time away. Glad to see all of you again!

Cory

Cory Wilson
Panama City, Fl, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 20:35:49 (ZULU)

Damn it Rod, i thought Pascal was a queer frenchman...

Dry, Muntjack taste very good, buy yer self some bull bars and run the sucker over and get in the pot.

Sarge and the other guys ref the wind and wind meters, well i still haven't fathomed out how to use mine with ref to the pressure and the weather, Jon B is the gadget man and he has shown me a couple of times, i'm sure its usefull, but one shouldn't rely on it as the only means, i do use it mainly as a wind meter and knowing the wind speed at your location does give you a datum to work from when estimating in other areas, i see tha gadget as an aid to other methods rather than a replacement, same goes for the lazer range finder, woe betide anyone who becomes totaly dependant on either, both are great for training aides, both improve our effectiveness a field riflemen without doubt, but when technology fuck up we still need to be able to operate.

Jon, what happened in NE England then? and mate, you're welcome to pinch my tree any time, i'd just fin another to spend the night in, just for gods sake don't pinch my ass. I spent all night in the woods again last night, no piggy showing, damn east wind and it was windy at the weekend bringing more acorns down, the buggers have enough to eat without my corn, maybe its time to make another batch of achoholic corn? I'm finnished night shift at 01.00 and then its off to the woods ( the guy who writes the shift plan is ace) , got to get some beasts in the larder, got complained at this morning for bieng behind on the cull plan, so its an all out frontal assault on the piggy population from now untill the end of January. I need to get to bed in the morning though, it will be 3 whole days with no bed by then, and i'm driving to Munich tommorow afternoon to hunt with Martin, Markus and Sepp ( the guys from the Scotland trip), which reminds me i must buy some 12Ga shells, bloody forgot this afternoon, was too busy having coffee with the chick from the forestry commission office (shabba). I went for a stalk at first light this morning but didn't see nownt, sacked it when i saw the first civvie on a bike and got the car and went to pick Meg up (who was still up the tree), turned up the track and bugger me there was a young doe stood watching me, i copuld have shot her out the window easy, but i don't do that sort of thing, and its illegal, so i drove on and the de bussed, stalked back and suer enough i caught her in some brush, got all lined up and let the shot off, only to see her bounce away like a spring bock as healthy as can be, went and had a look anyway, what i hadn't seen through the scope on x3 was just exacly how much deer coloured tree stump was contained in the brush and was exactly in front of her, so the bag this morning was a very dead tree stump. bugger it..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 20:41:38 (ZULU)

Hey Sarge....Prayers and best wishes for your daughter! It was not too long ago I went through the same thing! Head on in a Jeep. Two legs broke, arm, skull fracture, plastic surgery to the face and ears. So, I know how she feels right now. My thoughts and prayers are with her for a speedy recovery!

Cory

Cory Wilson
Panama CIty, Fl, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 20:48:06 (ZULU)

FINALLY!

Got the packages together and headed to Major Santa!

One at 36 lbs., another at 42 lbs.

You folks are making some troops happy.

And got a nice check and letter from Mr. Whittington today...Thank You Sir!! Fund back up to $104.32.

Out to the driveway to change the oil on the diesel. I sure do know how to party.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 21:06:16 (ZULU)

Dear O.D. Men,

In light of the recent advances in optics with variable scopes like the Leupold VX III that can be outfitted with mil dot reticles, is the MK 4 still the scope to buy if money is not a problem or is current thinking swaying to replacing the fixed power scopes with variable options. I have heard alot on this forum about the MK 4 but would like to know what the current trend is, if it is valid or just a fad to go to the variable power scopes. Thank you for your time and opinions in helping me to develop a rig.

Mule

Mule
wheat ridge, CO, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 21:13:15 (ZULU)

Pete,

the contact number you gave me sucks, as they speak to me in eins zwie ainglish..if it would just tell me wrong number arsehole....how ya doin by the way, eh?

Jon,

yo can do on the spotting scope..get a hold of me tomorrow or let me know when I can get a hold of you..talked to your better half, Rachael is pretty cool by the way, hell of a lot cooler than us anyhoo..If she has any hot single chick friends, yeeeeehawwww, I AM in it to win it..

Marc Palmer,

Damn you Yankee..you should have at least let me know you were in a bind, let alone a fellow yank..Bloody hell, deal with the brits, it's the shits..what the heck do you think they shipped me over here for? To deal with problem yanks like you!! haha..shoot me an email, like you should have months ago....

Sarge,

Sounds like good news, glad to hear it..Cheers..

Dudes,

My sis is on activation for Iraq as of I just heard today...They don't know when, hopefully it's after I get back home for thanksgiving, but I tell ya, she is geared to go...got 2 kids at home, she says, i get paid for this shit can ya believe it? Yup, same one with the heart stuff, apparently the mil got that sorted..Bruce, if she is over there, you and me will be talking as I'd like to set up or know how to set up the same sort of deal you have with Joe..Sis, is the Radar O'reilly, so a contact point shouldn't be too hard to find, even in the desert..

Joe M..

Sis was wondering about Sat phones....what should she be looking to get before she ships over, aand where..she's army eh..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 22:00:34 (ZULU)

Cory! Man you been gone on account of that wreck? Anyway good to have you back again!

Charles, I was shooting 45.5 but the primer pockets were beginning to oversize on me. The range I was shooting on then was only about 800 maximum so I don't really know what 1K would have done. This ole chamber is so long I don't know why it wouldn't work. You may have a point there though. I should try 45 at least. The ole chamber is so long in this VSSF .308 it's almost free bore. I don't know why it shoots as well as it does. Normally I just neck size and that's what keeps everything working but yesterday I was shooting full resized brass. I just got some more work to do. I need to have George put me a good barrel on this thing before I get serious at 1k. Just can't make up my mind if I don't wanna try something else being the notorious experimenter (translate "tinker") that I am.

Brogers
Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 22:24:31 (ZULU)

JR, what number you using? if its my mobile phone, then that will be because i have lost the sod, its probably going to be found inside some pig when they gut it.ha, i bet the poor piggy was getting lonely after all the other piggies gave him a wide berth cos he was ringing, untill the battery went flat that is. I'll get a new one soon. if anyone else has treid, Marc P , Jon, thats why i'm not answering.

JR you get your thirst in gear for the IWA, you have about 5 months to train..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 22:26:22 (ZULU)

Pete,

I just dial German operator, and say, where's that long eared Hully lad? Seems they cannae find ya..since it doesn't work I'll pst it pubicly: 0049-1733036074...must be the pig in the ass number....

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 22:38:29 (ZULU)

Ref: McMillan Stocks

I just finished the $10 tour of the McMillan Stock facility here in Phoenix. Neat operation run by some great folks. I kinda figured that would be the case based on their product. Tomorrow it's off for a weekend in Tucson....this job is killin' me. ;-)

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 22:56:38 (ZULU)

JR dude thats the one, goddamn phone disapeared all together, cant say i miss it, damn pig welcome to it. last time i saw it i was putting corn in the feeder, aint seen it since, some pig scoffed it i figure, what you want me for anyways? and trying the operator, well buddy you then have to know what to say, you ask "Wo ist das silvertongued, studly, zupakool,schwinechasin,bierswillin good lookin,yorkshire zuperman Pete?" and the operator will tell ya... "joinen zie der queue, behind ze 250 Britney Spears lukalikez, Kylie Minogue, der wildschwein rotte und der Taxman, oh, und donten zie thinken about robben sein kristmas treebaum, ozerweize, lightsout , du verstehen?"

sometimes i crack my self up.

talking of crack, whats the difference between a drug dealer and a hooker, one can wash her crack and use it again, the other can't. ha..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 23:17:09 (ZULU)

Howdy, Hogs.

I'm back. Finally re-connected.

It's been six-odd months, and man, what a wild ride.

Be proud of your soldiers. Old soldiers like Joe Mahon who rankle at the title "REMF," but who are known by their name and reputation for taking care of troops at the sharp end. "Santa Major" will have left an impression he won't totally understand for years.

Bruce Robinson and Marty Bordson, not men in uniform but whose tools have made a difference. Bruce, even the Royal Air Force uses your little gadget. Thanks for sending the boys the comfort items -- they go farther than you know (and I have learned to love heinie wipes).

All but four of the AMU's 300 Win Mags are now Fag Mags (6.5 x 284s). The next hot little number is the 7mm Remington Short Magnum firing the 175 Sierra Match King. The 300 Remington Short Mag in an AR-10T is also a nice little round should you need a self-loading long-range gun.

We have a neat little trimmer that uniforms the meplat on match hollow points. Got it from the North Carolina benchresters.

The Kowa Highlander will probably knock the Unertl 100mm off the top step as the new long-range coach's spotting scope.

I had the opportunity to go to Camp Robinson, Arkansas to see the Armed Forces Small Arms Competition and the Winston P. Wilson National Guard Combat Matches. I am impressed that the National Guard never lost the (combat) shooting bubble. Combat rifle, combat pistol, machinegun, and sniper. Very impressive, and got to meet Pete Carpentier and the crew at the National Guard Sniper School.

The 3rd Annual Benning Sniper comp starts at Fort Benning on Saturday.

The Army's looking for ideas for a new Semi-Auto Sniper Rifle:

http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2003/10-October/18-Oct-2003/FBO-00453243.htm

JR, my NCO who does M16 barrels got hold of one of the Kolbe/Border barrels you sent us. He showed me, "Boss now look at the wobble we get with a Krieger. You can see it with the naked eye. Now look at this Border. It's dead-nuts straight. Can we get more?" Don't know how that particular gun shoots, but he was impressed.

Found a barrel-maker who turns out tubes from 17-4 Precipitate-Hardened (aircraft landing gear) stainless vice 416R re-sulphurized from Crucible. We hope those tubes will get our boy a medal at the Olympics.

Everybody and anybody interested in seeing the Olympic Selection Matches to see who will represent the United States of America in International Rifle, International Pistol, and Running Target, the USA Shooting Finals will be at the AMU Pool Range Complex in May 2004. Admission's free.

Had a general visit, first one in memory who brought his own rifles. Third round from his 270 was an X at 600 (with a sporting rifle and a Leupold 3-9 huting scope. Third round from his 300 Weatherby was also an X at 1,000. Of course he was coached by world-record setting 1,000 yard and Palma guy SSG Emil Praslick.

For all who have had loved ones in the hospital or have had recent family losses, my heart goes out to you. I hope this is a place you can come back to when you have a minute just to say "Hey."

Lake City now sends us virgin 5.56mm GI cases with CCI Benchrest or Match primers. Machine-rest groups of 200-20, 200-19, and 200-18X are getting to be pretty regular occurances. We stuff them with Reloader 15.

Two of my boys finished a SOTIC Level 1 last week, one in the running for an Olympic medal.

I leave again in the morning for a couple of days. Will touch base later.

Sinister
Fort Benning, Home of the Infantry, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 02:52:30 (ZULU)

SINISTER: Hey sir, did you get the package I sent?

Enjoyed meeting the family. The old MAAG paratrooper I brought with me still talks about the visit.

Shoot me a mail offline if you get a minute.

Good to have ya back. Stay in touch,

BKS

brian k. sain
Friday, November 7, 2003, at 03:20:21 (ZULU)

Sinister: It's good to see you back. Don't stay gone so long.

Now where's Rick?

CDC'
Friday, November 7, 2003, at 03:46:49 (ZULU)

Peter

I’m afraid that if I put bull bars on the front of the bike I would be had up for a dangerous weapon or something knowing the local Police. They are apparently targeting any motorist going to the Welsh Rally championships this weekend. They managed to get a number of the rally champions last year another good use of police time I See.

Feeding mobile phones to the pigs how does that inprove the taste? I don't know dosn't ring any bells with me!! ;-)

Dry
UK - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 13:42:03 (ZULU)

Brogers, what brass are you using, Federal? I give all my Federal brass to Dirty Steve, he's a brass whore and will load anything. I got tired of that very thing, primer pockets opening up and primers popping out and dropping down in the trigger group. And usually doing it in the middle of a rapid fire string in the middle of a match. All I use now is Winchester, and all I do is neck size. When I do my part (three cups of coffee, two sausage buscuits, one ephedra cap, and a big dip of Cope) it will regularly cut one raggedy hole at a hundred. Shoots about .5 moa across the board.

I have a dilemma on my hands. My daughter, Erin, just informed me that she signed on the dotted line for the Army. She leaves in Feb. for Basic at Ft. Leonard Wood. She got it in her contract that she would go Airborne. Problem is, I'm a rock-ribbed, dyed in the wool troglodyte when it comes to wimmen in the military. But, at the same time, I'm proud as hell. I had resigned myself to the fact that I would die as the only non-leg in my family tree. So, do I cry, laugh, or just punt and get snockered? If she goes to Iraq, I guess I'll just have to apply for a leave of abscence, get my passport renewed, fly over and lurk around as an O.F.F.H.I.M. independant contractor......I do envy her 'cuz I miss Benning....all the wonderful country roads, the warm, supportive staff, good food and fine accommodations. Anyway, tell me how I oughtta feel, otherwise I might have to spend money on a shrink.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 14:13:18 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt..............

"I do envy her 'cuz I miss Benning....all the wonderful

country roads, the warm, supportive staff, good food and fine accommodations"

I'm guessing that one time you had issues with failed canopy deployment?

Mike McDonald
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 14:32:55 (ZULU)

Well, Mr Hunt The first thing I'd do is give her a big hug and all the praise and support you/she can stand! Then I'd tell her about Ft Lousy In The Woods oopps mean Ft.Leonard Wood at least she wont be there during the summer months when you can get carried away by the bugs!! What is going to be her PMOS? That may have some influence where she ends up! Sarge Jr. has been National Guard since his junior year in high school and FINALLY having graduated a year ago realizes that the Active Army is the only thing he's qualified for! Heck I'd been telling him that for a year or more!! Anywho he goes AD in January and will be with the 10th Mountain Division. He'll do well!

OK daughter up-date from a very happy dad! Her leg and ankle surgery was last night and they say barring any unforseen problems she'll get to go home, her home, MONDAY!! This is terrific news as her oldest sons birthday is next Saturday so she should be home for his 5th! Great News!

Again thanks to all for the prayers and support I KNOW the BOSS was listening to us all!

Sinister, WELCOME BACK you have been missed!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 14:40:10 (ZULU)

Airborne Daughter!

Charles, we all want to protect our families and especially our kids. To provide them the oportunity to have a better life then we have had. But we also try and instill pride in our country and way of life and teach them the history of how we got here. This is where the double edge sword comes in. You've apparently done a good job in raising your daughter and now she feels it is her time to start making her contribution to the continuation of this great nation. Now you are probably so torn between being so proud that she must have actually listened to what she has been taught and the fear that she may be palaced in harms way.

When it is said that "women" don't belong in "the military", "combat" or be a "police officer" they've forgotten our history. Women have always been there right along side the men many, many times and in way to many battles to make this country free. My personal feeling has always been, "If she is willing to do whatever is necessary to keep me alive so I can go home at the end of my shift, then I don't have a problem with women in patrol." Strange thing is, that is the same thing I say for any of the guys as well.

As you have probably always done, be proud of her, continue to support her and when she is away keep a light on in the window so she can find her way home. We sometimes forget that we raise our children to be adults so that they can live there own lives. We may not always agree with their decisions but we must also remember that it is their life and not ours.

Be thankful that a certain part of anatomy that girls don't have won't suffer the fait of a misplaced strap when she makes that first jump on the "nutcracker" as so make of us males have experienced.

Besides, don't you want her to have some of the fun you had when you were in the service? Oh, I forgot you haven't told her all the old stories!

Just remember, simply because she is going to be in the Army doesn't necessarily mean she will ever leave the states. While I was in ('72 - '74, Army 82nd Airborne 43E2P - Rigger) my unit was involved in two joint exercises in Greece and Turkey but my butt never got to leave Fort Bragg 8-(. So much for seeing the world.

Besides, look at the number of men she will have to pick from (if she chooses).

Heart rate, emotions, up down, up down, are you to tired now to think about it for a while. If so I accomplished my mission for the day. Dad, you done good! She'll be fine! I always found it advantageous to introduce yourself to some of her close comrades and let them know some of your likes, dislikes and hobbies (big grin or two).

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 15:36:01 (ZULU)

Sarge....wonderful news indeed !!!!!! I'm continuing to pray for her.....

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 16:28:35 (ZULU)

A few days ago someone was talking about McMillan Tactical rifle stocks. The comment was made that the A4 was too heavy for his liking. Since I work within a mile of the new McMillan facicity here in North Phoenix I paid them a visit in the fall of 2002 prior to having my NorCal precision 308 built. First let me say the folks at McMillan are very courteous, I called them and asked if I could look at the various stocks, they said anytime, so I went there and they had a nice bright room set up and brought in a samples of the HTR, A3, and A4 stocks that I was interested in. A most pleasant woman explained the camoflage process they used and several other questions I had about the various tactical stock options.

I liked the shape of the A4 stock but it was very heavy and I commented on that fact. She told me that I could get any stock in most any weight that I wanted, as the weight was a function of the way each specific stock was 'filled', and since every stock is custom made I could get it however I wanted!

After discussing this with Jerry Rice ('smith at NorCal Precision), we decided (based on his experience and my wants) to order an A4 configuration stock at slightly heavier than A3 weight, Length of pull at 13.25" (to fit me properly), a Pachmeyer Decellerator pad glued on and no cheekrest saddle (a 40 mm objective scope was scheduled and fit would be fine w/o an adjustable cheekrest per Jerry), and desert camo pattern.

Jerry ordered the stock and built me his basic Tactical rifle (trued and accurized Rem 700 action, Kreiger fluted s/s barrel, badger base and rings, yada, yada.)

I did not see the stock until the rifle was delivered to me. Man, does this thing fit me! I love the stability of this rifle on a sandbag or rest, and the controversial "butt hook" works superb for me. The rifle is accurate (as it should be), and the stock seems to make the rifle easy to shoot. Recoil (12.5 lbs w/scope, 308 Win caliber) is minimal, making this rifle a real pussycat to shoot!

Sorry for the long post, but it was hard to talk about the stock without mentioning the rest of the rig.

Bill Warner
Phoenix, AZ, - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 17:19:10 (ZULU)

Sinister,

Give me a shout off-Roster.

Sarge,

Prayers continue.

All,

Be aware that there are some new viruses goin' round. Got hit with two this morning, VBS.Inor and Sober@MM. McAfee caught 'em both.

Don't EVER open an .exe file attached to an Email!

Anybody catch "Threat Matrix" on the network last night? Dealt with a teenager who stole an "M40A1" rifle from a gun store and went on a serial shooting spree. Typical Hollywood BS, handloads reaching 3000 fps and effective (5 for 5) Center-of-Mass shots from 1450 yards, in the hands of a 17 yr. old. And a Unertl scope with a plain crosshair reticle. Anybody want to tell me that the "anti-sniper-rifle" legislation is not about to get resurrected? Sheesh......

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 17:42:47 (ZULU)

Charles; yeah, it was Fed Match that was giving me problems. I've got some LC brass that works better and even regular Federal seems OK. Anyhow.

Sarge; good news! Hope it all keeps going your way.

Brogers
Friday, November 7, 2003, at 18:01:21 (ZULU)

VDH on our resolve. He waxes poetic a bit too much for my taste, but it's worth a read.

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200311070835.asp

CDC'
Friday, November 7, 2003, at 18:02:14 (ZULU)

Pete,

You know I can't remember what the heck I was going to ask??I think it had something to do with picking up stuff from Cabela's...Piggie eating your phone sounds like something out of edgar allan poe..When I phoned the operator, I checked to see if that number was in service, and she said basically it wasn't to the best of her knowledge..I wouldn't have posted the number on the web if it was, but I thought if some psycho decided to ring that number they could listen to the German babbling on about whatever the hell she was babbling..Thought it was voice mail at first, picked out the Deutsch I could understand and came to the conclusion that this message was telling me to f'off..

Pretty much what I remember is phoning Rachael, getting my lists together for what to bring back from the states, made some kick-ass fajitas, then dad rings..Asks us if there is a whisky bottle handy, and to get a large clean glass..Then he tells me about the sister receiving her orders to get prepared to head to Iraq..Well the whisky bottle couldn't pour fast enough, it was a transatlantic session you could say..We have always expected this day to come, and dreaded it..It isn't really that we're worried about her getting shot at, although we don't like that all too much, or that we don't support the role we are playing in the Gulf, it was just a shock to the system, which I'm sure every family with loved ones overseas experiences..so about a liter of Jameson's from this end, and a liter of Windsor Canadian stateside, we got ourselves prepared, the O'Neal way, bloody irish...Proud as hell though, she knows her job, she knows the situation, and she is gung ho...Brave one, she is...

Bruce, what I wondered is are there any hurdles in the process as far as sending gear that way? The communities the servicemen and women live are gearing up much the same way you and Joe had it worked out, from what I could tell..The muckletoon folk I talked seemed to be keen to set up a drop point, and the guys from work will probably get in on it as well..I just need to know is there any limit on any certain goods, or should I label the boxes in any particular fashion, and how should I fashion it to provide for all in her unit?

Charles,

same boat dude..Ya laugh, you cry, and you get snockered...then you do it all over when you hear she is about to be deployed..and I imagine you repeat when she leaves stateside to meet the BG's...but you remain fiercely proud..Ft leonard wood, that's where Brandi went to basic...Congrats mate!!

Sinster,

HS makes their receivers out of 17-4PH, and I really had the urge to rifle a barrel up in that steel..We actually did rifle a piece up, before we got the broaching machine in order for the receivers, made a tool to cut the raceways on the rifler machine, and it cut nice..Drills well, reamed ok but not as nice as 416R, but yeah, have thought about it myself... Glad to hear the bore was straight, whew!! hahah.. Hey, if you guys see something in the rifling you might want to modify, as in land width too narrow/too wide, just let me know, and I will tailor to your specs...Say, if I can get your way sometime, how many beers would it take to get a walk thru? Looks like a helluva place...

Right, we'll catch youse guys on the flip side..Take care

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 18:05:21 (ZULU)

Brogers, well, no not 'zactly sir, just been busy with lots of other things. Got interested in IDPA. The head injury did slow me down a bit, but Doc got that sorted out with a new med used for seziures, so now no more migranes! Back to shooting long range now too. Knees healed nicely, but still toting around extra titanium. I've been on reading alot, just not posting.

One of my long time friends has been in Baghdad for 7 months. He is a member of the Florida National Guard Co. Bravo, out of PC here. Went back last week after 2 weeks R&R here in PC. Lots of great pics and stories came back with him. We took his ass to West Virginia to the New River Gorge for some Rafting and Climbing. Got up on the Endless Wall and did some multi-pitch. Had a blast! Knee held up well. Did a shipload of shooting here while he was in. Drank everything we could while he was home. Haunted the beach here. All in all the crew made sure his R&R was memorable. First night we picked him up at the Airport in Panama City, we toted his ass to TGIfriday's and poured beer and shots in him til his fiance came and got him. He was in no pain by then. She was suprised 'cause she did not know he was even here! What a reunion! Like something from a really good WWII movie. I got all choked up. He is Serving as a Medic and is very proud of what he is doing, as are the rest of his buddies. My prayers are with him everyday for God to return him safely to us.

Later!

Cory

Cory Wilson
PC, FL, - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 20:03:41 (ZULU)

To JM in TX:

Thanks, man! Fund now sits at $204.32......about time for another run to Wally World!

JR:

When I fill out the customs form here (Seems silly, since they go to an APO!), I just put a description like "Tobacco, Dried Beef and Household Supplies" and check the "Gift" box. Rather than try to itemize quantities, I leave that column blank. No problems so far.

Don't know how it would work from there. Check with your local Post Office, and set up a local distributor (for me, that's Major Santa). Joe sees to it that the stuff gets equitably distributed to the grunts, and that none is siphoned off by higher-ups. This stuff has to go to the gals and guys that can't get to a BX (until after it has been cleaned out!)......this is where Joe shines. It would be an exercise in frustration if not for his untiring efforts.

Restrictions from this end are: no firearms or ammo, no alcohol, no pornography. I guess they don't want anybody to have fun.......

Hit me off-Roster if there is anything else I can tell you.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 21:26:58 (ZULU)

Bruce,

thanks mang..

Did I tell you guys we have to make some 5.56 x 45 barrels for Royal Ordnance/Radway Green? hah, yeah..And they sent us up some M16's to fit them to, 3 to be exact..2 fully auto, one with burst....will be sending magazine up so we can sort of 'function' test, can imagine the locals getting a bit excited that day..Yee haw!! I've been talking up the AR15 since I got here, says I cannae understand why the hell we can't have 'em...so we get the m16's in, Lee, never touching a service weapon, asks 'whats the difference between the ar15 and the m16?'..I says 'the spelling, mate'...and then there was silence followed by laughter..hahah..Told Geoff we need some slings so when the next delivery lorry(truck) shows up, we're all walking around carrying...That would make the paper..You know I've never taken one apart? can ya believe that...looks pretty straight forward, but is there something I should take into account?

cheers

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 22:05:04 (ZULU)

STARLIGHT CASES IN SAM'S CLUB

For anyone else in California don't bother travelling to all the local Sam's Clubs looking for a case. After checking one of my local stores I e-mailed Brack Wilson at Starlight Cases and he checked and apparently California did not get any of the cases. So if you're interested you will need to arrange for someone out of state to pick it up and ship it to you. My comment to Brack was they must have thought there weren't any gun owners left in California after all the gun laws that have been passed.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 23:10:04 (ZULU)

M16, AR-15 Disassembly & Assembly,

JR,

Go to this address and the Armalite manual should give you all the information you need:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/armalite_ar10_m15.pdf

Or simply click on my name and the manual will download to your computer.

You can also get the military maintenance manuals as well at:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 23:20:34 (ZULU)

FLW;

I was there for basic, C/2/10. I remember it like it was 13 years ago. Actually this month it was 13 years ago. Winter can be rough there!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, November 7, 2003, at 23:43:54 (ZULU)

Jody,

Yes. The winters at Ft. Leonard Wood can be nasty. I'm about 60 miles NE of there. Tuesday it was 80*F here and this morning it was 27*F with frost. We normally get at least two nice days each year. One in the spring and one in the fall! ;o) Picked up one of the Starlight cases in Columbia on Tuesday for $116.82 plus tax. That's one fine piece of gear.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The frosty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 01:23:04 (ZULU)

Cory; anyway good to have you back.

]

Took the afternoon off to go PD hunting with a hunter friend and his son in law on leave pending Guam Assignment. (F-15 Pilot). He hadn't shot much before if any. These are extra ordinary people we put in those airplanes. Not to mention their eyes are rather good. He now holds the altitude record for Pd's in this county for air force pilots shooting .223's. For number of dogs splashed in an afternoon mission also I would guess.

Brogers
Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 03:12:43 (ZULU)

Pete,

Got a pig story for you! Went out to the hill last nite to watch for a deer or what ever. Was cold, about 38F, and I was all bundled up in my hidey hole in the rocks out of the wind. Got too comfy and dozed off. Woke up to a loud crash and when I looked down to where my feeder was, I thought it was a cow. It had knocked my tripod feeder over and was rooting around in the pile of corn. Biggest pig I ever saw. Took me a minute to get set up for a shot, but I nailed it with a 165g Partition. Squealed, humped up and ran in a big circle and collapsed. Had to get the tractor to drag him out. Big old boar, weighed 702 lbs. Was up gutting and cleaning him til about 2 am. Sausage on the way!! Been seeing his tracks for about a month, finally got him.

Rex.

Rex
Spur, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 03:41:16 (ZULU)

Bruce,

I also watched the Threat Matrix show and was telling my wife what all of it was BS and what they needed to shoot that far, etc., etc. At the end, I wondered out loud if they hurt the stock...

Yep, more bs for the anti gun crowd.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 04:00:19 (ZULU)

Mike: Hell, yeah, I'm proud. I've managed to stifle the emothins of having a daughter go in harm's way, I guess I'd be just as SNAFU'd if it was a son....yer kids are yer kids, whatever the plumbing. It's just that I remember those days in the H-53 Jolly Green over Cambodia. But I know I can't protect them forever, any more than my Dad could me. And no, I've never had a failed deployment, but a couple of Mae West's and once, a static line got hung up and pulled me for 30 seconds behind the plane until the jumpmaster could cut it free. It was FUBAR'd and I had to use the secondary. talk about heart rate....and with almost 300 lbs of me and gear, PLF was a bitch....

I'll just hug her hard one more time, send her off and be ready to stand there proud when she comes home wearing green clothes.

Like I said before, I'll be going up to Badlands next Thursday for a few days of just shooting at the 1k range and playing with new loads. anyone in the area wanna stop in for a cold one and a meet-and greet, let me know. Bobby said I could just camp out at the range because he's not running any rifle classes, so it'll just be hot brrels and cold brewski's.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 04:19:08 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt,

E-mail in-bound via SC.

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 04:43:02 (ZULU)

JR--SAT phones--a bit outta my league there, mate. Better ask a commo guy that one. Commo was only my secondary many years ago....and these things weren't invented yet...in those days "hi-tech" was uplink and down link on split freqs--if you had sufficient priority to rate time on a bird. I just dunno what would be best---but anything beats the local service...

Sinister: You're right, whatever we got going with these care packages may not ever be grasped by those of us doing it. But for now and always, I am glad to a part of this little project to repay a debt to all our soldiers past and present. I was repeatedly given opportunity to lead them, to learn from them, and to be among them for alot of years---priceless! My father served as did all his brothers and his father; for those before to whom we all owe so much that we here cherish but many take for granted or fail to fully understand: Freedom. If a few troops have it better for so very little effort on my part and through enormous efforts from those folks here--then it is a no-brainer. BTW--this dang feeling of indebtedness sure makes it hard to even consider retirement! But I know that you know all this sir, this is posted for any lurkers out there who may not realize what a fine brotherhood we have in this nation: citizen, soldier, police, rescue, all doing things as a whole that no individual could...sometimes rising above themselves to do the extraordinary for those they stand beside. In a small way, this group has done this; and I am proud to be a small part of it. There is no one thing that is great, it is a sum of all the small parts that measure our nation's greatness!

I can't help myself sometimes...I just go off on these tangents. But hey, I am sure proud of this crew.

Bruce: The four boxes in question---I know for a fact that two of them made it here--the little jerky packs and some copenhagen; I was told by my folks that they passed out "at least six packages" while I was gone. CPT Kyle loved that jerky and cope--that is how I am sure this arrived. He is headin' back north in two days---sure hope we get some boxes in before he departs!

Charles: Heheh...a paratrooper? Dude, thank yer lucky stars she won't have to be among the remfs or the DATs! Paratroopers are a cut above, and she'll be among professionals. Esprit is a measure of safety in a dangerous world. She'll be just fine among these troops.

Threat matrix: Now to go after "exceedingly accurate weapons," loosely defined of course. Then, as we maim enough bambis with 4 MOA sticks; they'll use that to make the ban complete. Antis got nuthin but persistance. We gotta have some ourselves. I used to think "reasonable" measures were awright...but the other side never stopped, and now I see the error of my earlier thoughts. No gun measure is worth a damn, the second ammendment is the final word on the matter--and that is how I intend to fight this agenda forever more.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 14:45:57 (ZULU)

Folks,

Check out this website!

http://www.opgratitude.com

Just heard of it today on one of the news channels. Ms. Blashek is going great guns, 650 packages to the troops so far, and shooting for 3000 by Christmas.

Nice to see that there's a lot of Americans that feel just the same as the folks on the Roster.

And the Hollywood types can just kiss my ole tired Rebel ass......

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 15:26:26 (ZULU)

Worst gun show in the history of gun shows. At about 13:00 there were more vendors in the building that lookers and buyers. Only 15 or so table even had guns. They need to start calling it a flea market. Man I wish I could head out west to see what a real gun show is like. So boring I actually had more fun coming home and blowing leaves and cleaning out the gutters. Truly depressing...........

Bruce, you need to get some Operation Robinson-Mahon stickers made up!

Sinister, folks at Butner miss your face. Need to come home next year and shoot with us again. Email on way to you.

Bolt out!

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 22:25:50 (ZULU)

Significant ammo expended in Tikrit. Let's hope the boys had good intel.

CDC'
Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 01:17:16 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln,

Incoming mail w/questions. No attachments.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 02:34:07 (ZULU)

Okie Dokie......

It appears that the A-5 stock is the winner for alien invasion interdiction and F-class tactical purposes. Will be installed on a PSS, Winnie HBV and 300mag Sendero. Down down to the details. Need advise/opinions on the saddle versus thumbwheel cheek piece, and spacer system versus 3-way adjustable buttplates. Am leaning towards the thumbwheel and 3-way adjustable, but still open to different opinions. Is it going to be absolutely necessary to bed these stocks?

Also......

A couple of buds and I are attempting to lease some land for a 1000 yard range in a local river bottom, or at the base of a good size hill. No berm will be required at either location. Has anyone used a remote camera/monitor system to see where the boolits are landing? We really don't want to build a pit so this is another option that I came up with. It's just to hard to practice long range shooting when you are also shooting a match so we are getting serious about our own small range. Gonna invite the local PD sniper dudes to join us.

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 15:53:07 (ZULU)

Bolt, I have had the same idea. In my home I use the wireless cameras and reciever that plugs into a VCR and then into a TV. This is limited to a 300' range and is affected by the microwave running.I would use a direct wire system. Pick up a B&W weatherproof camera at Lowes. Use a decent tripod or permant mount. Go to an electrical supply wholesale house and buy coax cable in 1000' reels, make sure it is the outdoor rated coax. Check with a secuity system installer and see if there is a limit on length of cable run before the signal is degraded due to resistance.Hope this helps.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 16:16:24 (ZULU)

Bolt, or you can just get cheap and use steel targets! Instant feed back when it goes DING! Of course if you're trying for a bit more accuracy at the longer ranges this won't help TOO much!

OK I usually don't make long posts so if your not interested ignore this - but if you do you'll miss one HELL of a read!

Remember the guy who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe and tried to light it? Did you know his trial is over? Did you know he wassentenced? Did you see/hear any of the judge's comments on TV/Radio. Didn't think so. Liberal media at work again. Everyone should hear what the judge had to say.

Ruling by Judge William Young, U.S. District Court.

Prior to sentencing, the Judge asked the defendant if he had anything to say. His response: After admitting his guilt to the court for the record, Reid also admitted his "allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to Islam, and to the religion of Allah," defiantly stated "I think I ought not apologize for my actions," and told the court "I am at war with your country."

Judge Young then delivered the statement quoted below, a stinging

condemnation of Reid in particular and terrorists in general.

January 30, 2003 - United States vs. Reid.

Judge Young: Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you. On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in prison in the custody of the United States Attorney General. On counts 2, 3, 4 and 7, the Court sentences you to 20 years in prison on each count,the sentence on each count to run consecutive with the other. That's 80 years.

On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory 30 years consecutive to the 80 years just imposed. The Court imposes upon you each of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 for the aggregate fine of $2 million. The Court accepts the government's recommendation with respect to restitution and orders restitution in the amount of $298.17 to Andre Bousquet and $5,784 to American Airlines. The Court imposes upon you the $800 special assessment.

The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply because the law requires it. But the life sentences are real life sentences so I need go no further. This is the sentence that is provided for by our statutes.

It is a fair and just sentence. It is a righteous sentence.

Let me explain this to you. We are not afraid of you or any of your

terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been

through the fire before. There is all too much war talk here.And I say that to everyone with the utmost respect. Here in this court, where we deal with individuals as individuals, and care for individuals as individuals.

As human beings, we reach out for justice. You are not an enemy combatant.

You are a terrorist. You are not a soldier in any war. You are a

terrorist. To give you that reference, to call you a soldier, gives you far too much stature. Whether it is the officers of government who do it or your attorney who does it, or that happens to be your view, you are a terrorist.

And we do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not treat with terrorists.

We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice.

So war talk is way out of line in this court. You are a big fellow. But you are not that big. You're no warrior. I know warriors. You are a terrorist. A species of criminal guilty of multiple attempted murders.

In a very real sense, State Trooper Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews were, and he said you're no big deal. You're no big deal.

What your counsel, what your able counsel and what the equally able United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so horrific. What was it that led you here to this courtroom today? I have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I ask you to search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led you to do what you are guilty and admit you are guilty of doing. And I have an answer for you. It may not satisfy you. But as I search this entire record, it comes as close to

understanding as I know. It seems to me you hate the one thing that is most precious. You hate our freedom. Our individual freedom. Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually choose. Here, in this society, the very winds carry freedom. They carry it everywhere from sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom. So that everyone can see, truly see that justice is

administered fairly, individually, and discretely. It is for freedom's sake that your lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf and have filed appeals, will go on in their representation of you before other judges.

We are about it. Because we all know that the way we treat you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties.

Make no mistake though. It is yet true that we will bare any burden, pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. Look around this courtroom. Mark it well. The world is not going to long remember what you or I say here. Day after tomorrow it will be forgotten. But this, however, will long endure. Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American people will gather to see that justice, individual justice, justice, not war,individual justice is in fact being done. The very President of the United States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters can be judged, and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense of justice.

See that flag, Mr. Reid? That's the flag of the United States of America. That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom. You know it always will.

Custody, Mr. Officer. Stand him down. Unquote.

So, how much of this Judge's comments did we hear on our TV sets? We need more judges like Judge Young, but that's another subject.

Pass this around. Everyone should and needs to hear what this fine judge had to say. Powerful words that strike home....

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 17:53:47 (ZULU)

Bolt...

Quote:

"It appears that the A-5 stock is the winner for alien invasion interdiction and F-class tactical purposes. Will be installed on a PSS, Winnie HBV and 300mag Sendero. Down down to the details. Need advise/opinions on the saddle versus thumbwheel cheek piece, and spacer system versus 3-way adjustable buttplates. Am leaning towards the thumbwheel and 3-way adjustable, but still open to different opinions. Is it going to be absolutely necessary to bed these stocks?"

IF you go with the A5 Stock, I strongly urge you to get a Sniper Fill, esp for prone.

The stock is a great carry stock, and a prone stock, IF shot off a ruck, soft surface.

Shot off a pod, it will bounce BIG time.

None of the 3 sticks mentioned are heavy barreled enough to stop it.

A #7 contour would be minimum..IMHO.

Saddle v.s. Thumbwheel.........

Saddle all the way.........

Unless you mount(shorten two Mac screws from the A3/A4 series, and use them to lock the CP down, the adj T-Wheel ROCKS....

Not good.......

I would highly recommend this alteration, or go with the saddle....

Spacer systems would be my choice....3 way too expensive, for the difference in bennies.

Bedding........No, you can use the Mac's without bedding them, esp with the barreled actions you are contemplating, and they will perform as well as these rifles can.

Hope this helps....some is opinion, most is experience.....done paid the price of admission............

Best Of Luck

Two Shoes

Terry
Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 21:05:26 (ZULU)

Adding to the confusion:

Which is the best stock for off of a pod?

Sniper fill? Couldn't find mention of it on their site.

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 22:24:01 (ZULU)

Bolt,

I find the A3, the cats arse for Prone of a pod....but, that's just me.

Sniper fill is as a request.......call Kelley manana.....

Two

Terry
Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 22:29:15 (ZULU)

Gents,

Been away with a minor medical problem for the last ten days. Nothing to serious. Doc has me up and feeling better than I have for some time.

Sinister, welcome back.

On stocks: I use the McMillan M40A1 stock on both my .308 and 6.5 bolt guns. Personally, I think they are a better all around stock...at least for me.

McMillan on my M25 clone and a McMillan McHale stock on my .338 Loopie. The McHale stock is a peach for a "heavy rifle"

Had a A2 stock on my first .338 and liked it very much. Good prone stock.

Have not even seen an A4/A5 in our neck of the woods, but would love to handle one. State sniper match is going to be in the Jan/Feb '04 time frame. May see one there, but the rifles tend to be Rem PSS, etc., not custom jobs. Match was last won with an M24 and a VERY good man behind it. He'll be deploying soon...in charge of the units sniping section. Very proud of him.

Just got some of my reloading gear out of storage. Can load now and support my "bad habits"...;-)

Primed Brass: Have 1000 rounds of Berdan primed brass I got from Widener's. Have to try it, as it looks very good. Case extractor groove and case mouth appear machined. I believe our missing Utah member used these in his M1A to good advantage. Good winter project...will report back. Luckily I have a lot of IMR-4895, Accurate 2520 to use up. Should be about perfect. Will even use some of my Varget.

Appreciate you guys more than you can know.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 23:50:11 (ZULU)

Daughter up-date - she IS going home MONDAY!

Thanks one and all for your prayers and support! Still has a long road to full recovery but she is doing GREAT!!!

One HAPPY Dad!

Gang, need your help again. I remember one of the Rosterfarians, and I've drawn a total blank as to who, working for Barrett. Would somebody refresh this old farts memory as to who that is!! Then if you have an e-mail address I'd be even more gratful!

You can e-mail me with the address!

THANKS

Charles - will see you sometime Thursday weather permitting!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 06:14:42 (ZULU)

Rex,now that is some size of hog !! i was stalking some the other morning, saw a sow and 5 young uns (about 20 kg ) cross a track about 100 yards infront of me, they where heading to my left, i figured they where going to bed in a thicket, so i doubled back and went up another track to cut em off, i could smell em and hear em, i wanted to creap into the thickezt after em and try and get one just as i had got into position, some prat out with his dog and a flash light the size of a search light comes jogging round the corner (its 4 am !) he sees me, doesn't know if he is seeing an alien or a terrorist and begins to scream and the damn dog goes mad of course, by the time he has managed to jump back into his skin i just hear the faint sound of escaping pigs who have hightailed it at all the commotion, i was more than a little pissed off.

JR, i got the phone number put on hold cos i dunno if some 2 legged pig aint pinched it.

Doug, i just emailed you with my home addy, please email me there.

had a great day down near Munich on saturday, went out after some small game with a bunch of Bavarians, one of the beaters was ex german airborn and there where some interesting hunters there, one is the world champion at something with an air gun, and 2 where from grafenwöhr the US training area. On the first drive i connected magnificently with a high and fast pheasant and then from the bottom barrel i rolled a nice hare over(jack rabbit) wasn't exactly a left and right, more of an above and behind, anyway, if i could have hit like that all day id have shot a jeep full of game, luckily (for the game especialy the pheasants) i haven't shot a shot gun for a while and was a little rusty, and the wind was blowing a gale and made the pheasants supersonic, but sporting as hell, superb day, i think we had 56 hares, 67 pheasants, a fox, 2 ducks and a jay on the bag list by 1500 hrs, and then it was off to the pub for a well earned weitzen bier (or 6),hunt all day and then get tanked up on bier and fed traditional Bavarian quisine, what a way to spend your 35th Birthday, enjoyed it most immensely.

Jon B, i am off to Gastapo HQ in a minute or two, got to go an pick up your stock from that jack booted little customs shit fer brains, he will no doubt wish to (demand) seem my damned hunting licence before he will hand over the stock, he doesn't quite understand that it is not a registered part of a gun, and that if i want to buy one and screw a broom handle to it so my daughter has a toy gun to play with, then i can if i want, of course then he will seit is cammo painted and he will then be sure it comes under the weapons of war regulations, anyways Jon, if by the time you see the stock it is a bit chipped and bent, then its because i wrapped it around his jumped up self important concieted little head, shit, that guy is so much of a jobs worth and so bloody concieted that i bet he screams his own name when he has an orgasm.

You guys ever heared the term " Airplane Blonde" ? bet Brian can work out what it means.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 09:47:46 (ZULU)

Peter,

"Airplane Blonde"?

That wouldn't be an ex, with dyed blonde hair, with a "Black box" now, would it??? :)

Seem to have had one of those meself, ancient history. Fond memories though (mammaries too). hee hee

Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 11:27:09 (ZULU)

While laying in the hide if you get the irresistable urge to bang out a tune...http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2571326757&category=47072

I've seen it all now.

Sarge, glad to hear the good news.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 11:45:33 (ZULU)

LOL.... Pete, the bloke didn't think you were a terrorist, or an alien, it is just a natural reaction when seeing your face for the first time ;-). Hope you had a good birthday; how old are you now? Did you try and phone last night, the line was hot all evening?

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 13:36:50 (ZULU)

Sarge

Good to hear the news

John Beardsley

What do you mean Welshman in Exile? What did you do, was it something with sheep again? LOL

Can any of the Roster out there help? I'm after some 32mm scope mounts to a weaver base.(dont ask its not a scope)

Dry
UK - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 13:51:15 (ZULU)

Happy birthday to all the jarheads out there! The Corps' 228yrs old today.

Bill McCormick
Airborne, 82d, Cavalry Scout - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 13:57:55 (ZULU)

Hello gents, just out of the OP/LP. Enjoy the sight. Glad to see that Sarge's daughter is goin home. Heres a sight many of you may like, www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html

its a listing to honar all the servicemen and women who have given the altimate sacrifice for freedoms cause.

Steve S

Steve S
NC, USA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 14:49:46 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Great news, regarding your daughter. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Tony White used to work for Barrett. He posted under Tony 50 builder. I'm pretty sure he's living in East TN now. He left Barrett and moved away after his wife passed on.

Real nice guy.

Sinister,

Welcome back Sir.

I shot along side Emil in OCT., and spoke with him quite a bit regarding the 7SAUM. Good looking round, but it takes serious dedication to sort through 500 R-P cases to find 100 good ones!!! Had that bullet not blown up,, he would have taken gold. 19th shot of his last match!! What a kick in the balls...., though he still has Bisley,, right!!

Looking forward to coming down and getting beat on your range this coming season. Ohh,, and what's this I hear about an UGLY trophy for X count ;))

Chris...

Chris
Monday, November 10, 2003, at 16:33:35 (ZULU)

Hello - all - Happy Birthday to all the Marines out there. God Speed and prayers for our troops and those on patrol.

Question for all - are younz about ready for another riffle raffle?

Marius is after me big time for a raffle - I think it's about time to have one to support the SniperCountry operation (not me) itself....

Youn'z interested?

Ken Hunter
nokesville, Va, U.S.ofA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 18:29:13 (ZULU)

Bruce:

Ten rolls of snuff and a boxfull of jerky landed on my doorstep sunday morning...I just opened it when in walked our favorite 5th Group rep (Kyle) to whom we presented 80% of the contents. I made a small box for any line platoon I happen across this week. While some guys need more than others (SFers)---always best to have something for the odd grunt here and there! Oh, a Blackhawk driver did get one roll of skoal wintergreen longcut off Kyle; he fondled it like it was gold...Neither of us had the heart to tell him no. Besides, in his line of work--the stress has increased exponentially lately. BTW--I was discretely advised to curtail "bootleg" flights to south of a certain line...as if I'd even consider bootlegging flight time...heheh.

Our paratroopers don't screw around...contact? Bring in the CAS! I think they were playing "Rock the Casbah" in the TOC too loud...heheh. Soon, the lefties will decry our wanton violence. Oughtta save a few rounds for those morons; but I digress--We have the capability to lock on mortar firing points while the rounds are in the air, we can lase that grid off aerial platforms, and then drop Copperheads with precision in about two minutes' time. After a few days of this, Hafeez and Jezebel will call us when the BGs start laying a tube in their backyard, and we won't even have to take a few stray rounds to kill them...ah, the armchair general within hath risen again! But I guess the guy with balls to fire 155 arty into a urban area ain't been promoted yet. Under current promotion methods--he never will be either...IMHO, if you allow a mortar team to operate near your house, counter-battery fires ought to be a fact of life for ya. Collateral damage my ass; they were hard-corps sympathizers! OK, so my militancy has roots--the VIPs on the 'hawk were enroute back to here. I've broke bread with them too. For all the strangers out here with me, it has been hitting awful close to home lately. And yeah, the specter scenario has my vote too! Orbit an AC130 with "cleared-hot zones" and orders to engage all muzzle flashes in sector. May not be totally effective, but it will get civilians to kick the tobacco habit pretty quick. Who was it who said, "grab em by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow" ???? Heheh, my cynicism is scarin' me...

XM8: It is on a fast track for fielding. I dunno; but it is hard to trust something without irons for back-up. Whatif that plastic thingy with lenses goes tango-uniform? HK makes it--anyone even touch one yet? I played with an earlier similar thing that the Bundswher carries, and it was kinda slick. Struck me as disposable though.

Now I am certain---all the boxes will hit as one; I'll be buried alive!

F-Class: Wanna make it fun? Let anyone compete with anything they want, and start the damn thing twelve hard miles from the actual firing line and toss a few obstacles in for good measure. That ought to level your playing field.. Unless Andre the Giant shows up with a Robar fifty...heheh.

Recommended Reading: "On the Banks of the Suez" by Gen Adan. I used it for my CGSC paper on strategy; an excellent read--good soldierly view with all the politics and personality conflicts that erupted along the Artillery road as two depleted divisions awaited reinforcement while facing two armies on the wrong side of the canal. Over their shoulders the Israelis looked down upon the entirety of their tiny nation. As they stood there against great odds, did they dig in for a desperate last stand? Hell no, they split their force and launched a deep attack, cutting off and surrounding the foe--to include the third army on the far bank. Balls, and they bet the nation on that gambit! Must read for any who wish to learn more about the influencing of US strategy under Airland Battle and the re-equip under Reagan that brought the USSR down.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Monday, November 10, 2003, at 19:01:04 (ZULU)

Joe,

"...a Blackhawk driver did get one roll of skoal wintergreen longcut off Kyle; he fondled it like it was gold..."

You just tell him that we all watch the news footage over here, and we hold the images of our people there in our hearts like gold...the Skoal is a small thing, made possible by folks here who appreciate and honor what they are doing.

Two more boxes in the pipe by my count, should hit next week.

All,

When I post this, I'll be off-line for a couple of days, as I unhook my "Ruuuuuuuuuug....." computer, get a network card installed, and fire up my "Chandler" computer that a great friend built for me, and try to suck the files out of one into another.

If anyone needs to get up with me, click on my name. That will take you to my website, where my phone number is.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 19:46:11 (ZULU)

Joe,

"F-Class: Wanna make it fun? Let anyone compete with anything they want, and start the damn thing twelve hard miles from the actual firing line and toss a few obstacles in for good measure."

Lets make it even MORE fun! Have everyone come to the "SANDBOX" and for every muzzle flash they "stop" 150 - 10X! High score wins!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 19:56:57 (ZULU)

Jon B, no mate you got it wrong,its the chicks (specialy the airplane blondes, bang on Doug !!) that scream out when they see my face, they scream from fright of bieng last in the queue, anyway, you have to be nice to me cos i have your stock.. the gastapo bloke seems to have had a day of no jackboots and a total attitude change, he obviously got layed for the first time last night. stock looks good mate.

didn't try phone last night as had surprise guests.

Dry, you mounting a lamp? must be off foxing or rabbiting eh? you might try a 34mm ring (for a S&B PMII) and make upa reducer shell. AI, EAW Badger Ord and a few others have rings, i have half an AI one piece ring thing some where if you can use that, i cut the thing up cos it was useless for mounting scopes but its fine for the ACI. I screwed a parker hale base to my hogue stock the other week, ive got my sure fire mounted in a parker 26mm ring, it does the job for tracking piggies in the dark that are wounded, cant use it for night shooting as that isn't allowed here, its got one of them pressure switches that mounts to the stock and i'm not to happy with that cos it keeps lighting up when it shouldnt,

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 20:40:49 (ZULU)

Geesh, but you guys are a nice lot. With friends such as these, who needs enemies? I go on an update hiatus because I'm stoopid enough to want to edjamicate myself and go study again, and you guys stop buying books! One would swear that y'all have all the books worth reading that Amazon stocks! Or is it just that y'all are too lazy to actually search for new books they might have? Nah! Can't believe that! You honourable gentlemen (I'm not speaking to the ladies here, they're excused) - LAZY? NEVER! I'll not believe that for one minute. So I'll just settle for the fact that y'all're shooting so much, and posting so much, and doing so many worthwhile things that there is no time to shop around on Amazon should the titles you may have interest in not be listed in our own bookstore. Yes, that's it. Of course! How could I have thought anything else? How could I for one single moment doubt the honourable intentions of our illistrius Fellows of the Roster? Woe be mine!

Serious now. I know it has been a long time since I've been able to put any real effort into the site, and the site has suffered because of it. And to top it all, the mail sent to the Webmaster account, everything I had to work on, I kept on Ken's servers. And last week, or was it the week before that Ken?, when I wanted to start working on those mails, something had gone wrong and the mail index had become corrupted. I couldn't get to the mail! And still can't. Not to the old mail in any case. Ken took that file offline and created a new, EMPTY, mailbox. Which I've been keeping reasonably clear.

Now if I can get Ken to make that mail file available to me in some way or the other, so I can see if I can at least extract the mail addresses and email those people again (BRogers, I hope you're reading - yours is one of those!), I might be able to get onto some of those.

My studies are over (hopefully there'll be no surprises and re-writes in January), and I've had a couple of weeks' rest, so now I can get into the site again.

Getting back to the bookstore - I've been working on it again the last couple of days and have been adding some books again. Some real interesting stuff it seems, especially a couple by the Chandlers. I'll be putting time into the bookstore again on-and-off, but it is a rather time-consuming process to find and post stuff.

Now y'all be good, ya hear?

Marius

Marius
Monday, November 10, 2003, at 21:28:21 (ZULU)

Pete

You know too well its a long rang IR laser illuminator the prats went and made in an odd size. I looked at the S&B ring but havn't fond the price yet. Only need a couple MOA so anything will do that mounts to a weaver rail. What is the size is the AI ring? And is it the weaver mount side? Thanks for the feed back

Dry

dry
uk - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 21:54:24 (ZULU)

You guys ready for a Riffle Raffle???? Stay tuned to your favorite Duty Roster for up-coming events!! :-)

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 22:33:39 (ZULU)

I was sondering if any of you can confirm the BS i just from a buddy's wife (hes in Baghdad, with the 30th engineers/82nd Abn). She said that they're being forced to adhere to rules of engagement that put them in harms way, so as not to cause collateral damage to civilians. Said too many guys are being accused of excessive force and some even pending charges. IF this is true its gotto be coming from politicians afraid of international political fallout.

Steve S
Airborne Bragg, NC, USA - Monday, November 10, 2003, at 23:39:38 (ZULU)

All:

My computer got a stay of execution, as the gal that was gonna put in the network card got called out on a service call, so it's hooked back up tonight.

Soon as I get the files sucked out into the new 'puter, though, it's off to the range with the Barrett and some M33 for some payback.

BMG Mike:

Got the box of Christmas cards from the kiddies....They will go out to Joe with the next shipment. Very touching. Thanks.

Sarge:

Got your generous check from you, Dry, and the un-named donor. God Bless you all. Took fund up to $304.32. Spent $292.50 at the White Buffalo today, so fund now stands at $11.82. More Skoal and Cope headed for the guys (hopefully no gals dipping!), and the first Christmas cards shipment will be in there, too. When more contributions roll in (as we are sure they will!), we'll pad the box with Art's Jerky! Also with Christmas cards from kids in NM and TN!

Steve S:

In my own politically incorrect opinion, the Sunni Triangle should be fused into glass. The only fallout we should be concerned about is....well, I better not go there.

May God Bless all of you who have been, and continue to be, so generous to "Goodies for the Grunts"......you don't get no tax deduction, many of you have other pressing financial obligations....but you keep on spending your hard-earned money, and telling our men and women in harm's way how much you respect and appreciate them. I can never adequately express my admiration for you.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:49:32 (ZULU)

Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:59:55 (ZULU)

Out of lurk mode for now.

Gents,

Has anyone had any experience with the new digital camoflage? Found some in the shomer-tec catalog on my patrol commanders desk for $32 for tops and bottoms and $13 for boonie hats. That's desert and woodland. Saw that it also comes with built in knee/elbow pads and pockets in the sleeves.

Marc

Marc Ingram
Hinesville, GA, USA - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:08:18 (ZULU)

First, I want to Thank all Veterans for the service you have provided our Nation.

I appreciate it more and more every day I see what other countries have to offer. America is truly the greatest nation on Earth and you helped make that a fact.

The passing of my Father this year, he fought on New Guinea, has made this even more of a time for reflection.

We have had several folks from this site email us about a discount on the Accu-Shot.

We have Gentleman's agreement not to discount our products to civilians. We do offer all Veterans and active duty LE/Military folks a 10% discount every day of the year with ID.

What we can and will do on 11 November 2003 in honor of our men and women that serve, is offer a FREE Tac-Cap (BT07) with any Accu-Shot orders received that day. This will be in addition to the LE/Military discount.

So if you want this offer just place your order online at www.accu-shot.com and note "SC OFFER" in the comments section of the order form. If you qualify for the 10% discount, fax or email us your ID and note the "SC OFFER" in the comments section on our website and leave the rest to us.

Thank a Vet.

5db
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 04:52:33 (ZULU)

Dry,i suggest you contact Marty at Bagder Ord, work out what hieght rings you need, use the 34mm rings designed for the Schmidt&Bender PMII and have some reducers made to fit the body of whatever that searchlight is you are trying to mount. I'd avoid the AI mount, its not up to much, its like an oversized version of one of these one piece air gun mounts, mine wouldn't return to zero. I could get you some of the EAW mounts with 34mm rings, but the rings screw to the piece that grips the weaver/picatinny rail and have a habbit of shooting loose unless you super locktite em, and they are amature when compared to Badger Ord kit. Tell us more about your little project? sounds interesting. And get youself a lance or a spear and get that munty squewered.

Steve S. as much as i don't want to believe what you heared, going from my own experience in the British Army, i have a sneaking suspicion that there may be some truth in it.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 08:25:53 (ZULU)

It rained. Ain't that something? The folks living behind berms caught hell in the high winds past few days--and the quick but potent downpour may give our troops some respite from the dust. I guess prayers were answered, it was miserable out there yesterday...

ROE: Ah, philosophy time! My favorite part of posting! Once upon a time, information was formatted and passed hard copy. Higher HQs only wanted specific bits of details, as it was sooo time consuming to sift through it (and to write it on the user end). So, general guidance was issued from on high, and local field commanders had wide lattitude to operate based on tactical situations. Then came the computer, then the ARPA, then internet, then Secured nets...and higher HQs could (and does) gather so much detail, so many reports, so very much data that local commanders' time became a steady stream endless reports to the boss who is far removed from harms way. Bossman, armed with every minute detail conceivable---now he can (and does) re-live his glory days of company command. He is able to issue such detailed edicts so as to tie the hands of everyone beneath him. And in a world of zero-tolerance; who in their right mind would allow a subordinate to make any decision at all? Why, those sorry bastards might do something un-PC and jeapordize your chance for the next star! We cannot have any of this; therefore, since "He" now has has such visibility (ok, so this is an illusion) of the situation, he can therefore direct all things leaving nothing to chance (concerning his looking good, at any rate). nd the local "bastards" on the tip of the spear merely carry out strict guidance that is more mandate than left/ right limits anymore. The information age is an exploitable opportunity---but the current crop of end users haven't figured out how to properly use this combat tool. Why, as an example, would some general care a wit how many pair of 6 narrow boots are sitting in a warehouse. Maybe 0.01% of his force uses this, but it gets reported anyway. It just snowballs downhill from there.

Bottom Line: It is war. People will die. People who can kill people effectively may not be social butterflies on the cocktail circuit and that should be just fine. Let's stop asking combat soldiers to be "nice guys" and instead let's instill a warrior mentality.

Information is a tool, but too much is a burden. Priorities, big-picture-info and the faith and confidence in our men and women historically got the job done--why all of a sudden did this change? If Captains are not seasoned enough to make critical decisions---it ain't their fault we promoted them at 42 months in service (counting training of at least 10 months along the way). Maybe, if we didn't have so many damned commands, we could promote the captain at a reasonable 54 months. Maybe if we didn't layer generals on top of generals, the one guy left standing wouldn't have time to bury his subordinates with RFIs. Maybe if we allowed a learning curve in our thinking, this zero-defect mentality would die its natural death. Commanders should be allowed to think outside the box without fear their career is over for assuming risks for great gains. They should be allowed the flexibility to react when needed without asking permission to do so. This delay in asking permission will cost us lives if it hasn't already. The guy eyeball to eyeball with the enemy should be the final authority on shoot/ no-shoot. If he then says "I'd do it again in the same circumstances" then who in the hell is a REMF commander to question that???! Realize that I am talking credible threats that preemptive action could counter; actual return fire is still authorized---so far. But I ask, "why wait until the bastards have chosen to hit you?" Why not hunt their asses down with good intel and kill them while the info is still fresh?

Micro management at the macro level. I never thought I'd see this day...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 09:36:20 (ZULU)

Spent the weekend shooting the fall match at Badlands. Those of you who weren't there missed a great shoot - in the rain, laying in the mud, at 45 degrees F. We had a blast! Bobby and his staff put on a great match, and have an after-action section after each stage, so you can learn to do it better. I came back with a list of things I need to practice. For those of you who were there - it was great to put faces with the names!

Someone is treating the troops coming back for R&R from Iraq right - click on my name for a heartwarming story.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 13:23:01 (ZULU)

Mark: Regarding the digital camo....stay away from the stuf put out by Propper, it fades badly the first couple of times you wash it.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 13:54:17 (ZULU)

To all Veterans, past and present.

May this day remind ALL those who live in this free land that freedom is not and never will be FREE!

All have given some...some have given all!

May your Veterans Day be a day for remembering the good and not so good days!

And especially to my Dad...Bill Blosser, Tech Sgt, US Army (1942-1945) Thank you SIR for what YOUR generation did for us all!!

Garry Blosser, SFC, US Army Retired

aka Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 14:04:51 (ZULU)

Hey fellas, who's going to SHOT SHOW this year?

We oughta hook up.

Posted the same over at the Hide.

brian k. sain
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 14:41:33 (ZULU)

Joe; Ditto as hell! Same thing is going on in private business. They don't know how to handle this new capability. I created an accronym for American business. It's the answer to all problems. S.A.D. (start another database). I have another; H.A.D.E.S. (hire another dickhead exsecutive supervisor). Your points are right on target.

Brogers
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 14:58:08 (ZULU)

To all active duty and veterans (US and it's combat allies). Thank You.

"Dying men were brought into our tent, men whose death rattle silenced the conversation and made us all thoughtful. When a man was almost gone, the surgeons would put a piece of gauze over his face. He could breath through it but we couldn't see his face well.

Twice within five minutes chaplains came running. One of those occasions haunted me for hours. The wounded man was still semiconscious. The chaplain knelt down beside him and two wardboys squatted nearby. The chaplain said, "John, I'm going to say a prayer for you."

Somehow this stark announcement hit me like a hammer. He didn't say, "I'm going to pray for you to get well," he just said he was going to say a prayer, and it was obvious to me that he meant the final prayer. It was though he had said, "Brother your goose is cooked." Anyhow, he voiced the prayer, and the weak, gasping man tried vainly to repeat the words after him. When he had finished, the chaplain added, "John, you're doing fine, you're doing fine." Then he rose and dashed off on to some other call, and the wardboys went about their duties.

The dying man was left utterly alone, just lying there on his litter on the ground, lying in an aisle, because the tent was full. Of course it couldn't be otherwise, but the aloneness of that man as he went through the last few minutes of his life was what tormented me. I felt like going over and at least holding his hand while he died, but it would have been out of order and I didn't do it. I wish now I had."

Ernie Pyle

medicjim
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 16:29:31 (ZULU)

To all who have served:

Heartfelt admiration and appreciation from me and the Child Bride.

To all now serving:

Same as above, and may God keep you safe and return you to your families, and to a welcome from a grateful nation.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 16:30:27 (ZULU)

Posted this on the hide as a response, thought it should also go here.

Just FYI Gentlemen,

Please read this rather long winded email.

I'm pretty much a lurker here and usually leave contributions to those more qualified than myself, Lord knows there are more qualified individuals out there.

A few of you out there have had dealings with me in the past and know who I am. Not LE not military. Just when the family allows an avid shooter.

Well, I have had two people try to screw me in recent months when it comes to optics, specifically MK4 scopes. One the affore mentioned one (used PayPal and credit card to protect my self - worked). The second was on Ebay. The pricks out there are learing the lingo. They don't have it down yet. But be advised, in time they will. Here is an example. Please, do not post critiques as it will give them assistance.

I WILL BE GONE THIS EVENING FOR THE NEXT 2+ HOURS, NIGHT-FIRE TACTICAL OPS TRAINING. IT WILL BE LATE, SO I WILL FINISH OUR AUCTION THEN. GONNA TRY 935yds W/ 42* GRADE AND 8 mph CROSS-WIND, IN THE ILLUMINATED DARK.

I think it speaks for itself. Again, I know there are deals to be had out there, but venture into them with both eyes open.

If anybody out there is having difficulty with the ultimate wanna-be please contact me off line I can fill you in on my dealings.

Everyone, thank you for the info you have provided over the years.

Also, if anyone happens to have a Leupold MK4 or 30mm LR scope that's nasty and their willing to let go for a song. Hit me with an email.

God bless those on the pointy end.

Fitz.

Fitz.
Chicago, - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 17:11:30 (ZULU)

An unmeasureable amount of thanksgiving and prayers for those that offer themselves for the freedom and liberty of others. I pray that amongst the remdainder - there are those with the same resolve - when that time comes.... again....

Raffle topic: Okay folks here it is - I have Chandler Sniper number 331 - built brand spanking new - as in READY TO SHIP RIGHT NOW. This one has been in the works for awhile and is ready to go. Here's the specs:

The rifle specs are as follows:

Chandler Sniper Super Grade .308

26" Fluted Hart Barrel

Hart Muzzle Break

McMillan/Gallagher A1C Stock

IBA Picatinny Rail, Lugged

Badger Rings

Leupold M1LR Mildot

All collateral equipment

Ima thinking we can turn on the raffle in a week or so.... Youn'z interested?

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, U.Sof A - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 17:56:23 (ZULU)

Fitz,

Right on......

Appears there is some help out there, and we need all we can get.....

If any of you experience this type of shafting......

Go here:

http://www.fraud.org/info/contactnfic.htm

They have a website, and are actively pursing, notifying local LE agencies, and getting things DONE.

The Internet is no longer a license to steal.....you WILL pay.

TO ALL VETS..........

Thank you for your service to me, and our country........

There are FEW people I have more respect, and admiration for than our servicemen and women........you do so much for so little.

God Bless, and God Speed.........and may you all come home safely.......

Two Shoes

Terry
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 18:00:02 (ZULU)

Joe M: "Why not hunt their asses down with good intel and kill them while the info is still fresh?"

Iniative isn't everything, but it's a lot. If we don't take the fight to them, they bring the fight to us.

No bueno.

CDC'
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 18:37:16 (ZULU)

UPDATE

Received an email from the individual in question warning me not to defame his character.

As I previously stated I received a refund from PayPal which I reported to their services. I don't feel this refund was iniatiated by the party in question.

Fitz

Fitz.
Chicago, - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 18:40:08 (ZULU)

medicjim,

Thanks

Don

Don Smith
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 19:44:50 (ZULU)

Ken,

I'm in for the raffle............

Duman
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 19:58:33 (ZULU)

Dear Gentlemen,

I posted a question about a week ago concerning the purchase of a MK4 Leupold scope or a Var III type if money was no object. I have not had any response and would like to get your advice since I will have only one opportunity to get my first rig completed correctly ( due to $). I frequently read your discussions but have not seen this matter discussed even though there are several review articles on the Var III LR M1 and M3 type scopes. This is just my second posting and I enjoy the "regulars" and their insight on a variety of subjects. Thanks much again and hope you will respond.

Mule

Mule
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 20:20:24 (ZULU)

The "cut and run" strategy is getting more of a hearing than it should. Christopher Hitchens is a British Socialist who seems to be in the process of switching to our side. If so, I'm delighted to have him aboard. In any case, he makes the case for seeing this war through to victory better than I ever could:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090772/

CDC'
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 20:32:42 (ZULU)

Mule,

Some things you should post with the question.

What will the rifle be used for? (Hunting, target shooting, tactical matches, working rifle, etc) What caliber are you using, and what ranges do you feel you'll shoot mostly? What ranges do you want to shoot to? Do you load your own ammo or is it strictly off the shelf match grade? What kind of stock are you using, and does it have an adjustable cheek piece?

All this matters.

Chris...

Chris
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 20:43:13 (ZULU)

Chris,

Thanks for the reminder,

The rig is a common one

Winchester Stealth

308 Cal

Handloads

Badger mount

Leupold 30 mm rings

Sniper competition/other long range shooting events

Ranges consistent with tatical matches

I have shot service rifle (M1A) for a number of years,have military experience (Combat Engineer) and am looking to get involved in this sector of the shooting community. As with most shooters I am trying to get the major items right the first time and will flesh out the rest of the tactical gear as I can. I prefer to get what I will ultimately use or have the skill to use up front instead of constantly "trading" up the ladder. Thanks for the timely response and your advice.

Mule

Mule
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 21:38:27 (ZULU)

Mule, I agree with everyone else M3LR with the Gen 2 reticle. for the type shooting you're discribing you wont go wrong!

OK Gang you've wanted a Raffle so lets here it.....

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 21:42:30 (ZULU)

Mule,

When you go to buy the M3LR w/Gen 2 from http://www.premierreticles.com, ask them to be sure the 30-06 cam is included. Load your rifle with 175 gr HPBT sierras going about 2670 fps or so and you should be pretty darn close the the cam out to 1000.

medicjim
Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 21:47:28 (ZULU)

Veteran's Day;

I had a great Veteran's Day. I went to the rifle range with the father of a friend of mine. He was in the Marine Corps in the early fifties and just missed the Korean War. His brother was the first Naval casualty of the Korean War.

His friend went with us. He was a Combat Engineer with the Army in the Korean War.

After the range, we went to a great seafood place and talked for a while. What a good day!

I just wish my father could have been there. He's disabled and can't get out much. He was in the Army in the early sixties.

I also have a brother who was with the 82d in Grenada.

Raffle;

I'm interested.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 23:08:03 (ZULU)

Pete

Tired to send you some details off roster but got bounced by the postmaster it said they blocked because of spam. And I have lost your e-mail address when I had a system crash. I will try again but you or I might have a Problem?

dry
UK - Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 23:49:34 (ZULU)

My best wishes to the fellow Veterans out there! And thank you to all those that have supported us through peace time and war. The support is gladly appriciated by all who serve.

Steve S

Steve S
Airborne Ft. Bragg, NC, usa - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 00:08:20 (ZULU)

Mule,

Take the advice of those before, and go with the Gen II M3. I like the VariX III's as well.

You will likely want more magnification if you start shooting 1K F Class, but 10X is adiquate, and I have shot some great scores with 10X.

Chris...

Chris
Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:05:03 (ZULU)

Riffle Raffle thoroughly endorsed in these here parts. Need something to keep the wife from taking mine.

Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, US of A - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:36:04 (ZULU)

John A.,

I have a New member to the family! ;)

Next step is to sign some paper work up north, to let the new kid play.

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 02:28:06 (ZULU)

Mule; I probably looked through your post thinking that you would receive many recommendations for the M3 and everyone else did the same. This is of course unless you can find a Sheperd P2. (just kidding). ( I have to give the other brothers a fright every now and then.)So far everytime I mention Sheperd's and M3's on the same post I hear from Rick Boucher and my best airforce buddy. I'm just a little lonesome for their good company.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, my last M3 went to a very nice gentleman SC roster supporter who used it well I'm sure and the Coyotes don't give a crap what they are shot with or what scope is mounted on it.

Went out today and celebrated the Vets with a 1k yd shoot all by myself. Well, I had my rifle. The wind was only about 10mph and about 8th. IT was a good day. Maybe this .308 will make it to 1k yet if I keep workin on it. I took my bike to chase targets with and the fall air didn't hurt me a bit. Rode about 25k' just smellin the season and scarin the cows.

Joe, I thought about you and boys a lot today! We are all looking for a solution to this thing. Everyone's got a plan but nobody's got a solution. My plan to begin with was bomb to their asses level, take over their oil and tell the rest of em to behave or go to hell with the Iraqi's. Apparently it was not a solution acceptable by those who lead us to a more civil approach. We'll never know if that would have worked in Iraq, Vietnam, or Korea. Hopefully we'll survive not knowing.

Brogers
Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 03:02:22 (ZULU)

Didn't wake up in time to hear Remembrance Day commemoration live on BBC radio. First time I'd heard it was on the short wave many, many moons ago on exercise in a country far from home.

Took a friend out to Galloway Range at Benning today for the stalk of Benning's 3rd Annual International Sniper competition. Apologized because it was an all-day affair (the last snipers fired their live rounds at the iron maiden off-set from the observers just as light was failing, having stalked for 4 hours).

He reminded me that Veteran's Day was about Soldiers, and that he was privileged to have shared it WITH Soldiers doing combat training.

Snipers here from the Regular Army, Army and Air Guard, Britain, Germany, and Canada. Germans shooting their AI 300 Win Mags, spotters carrying 5.56 G36Ks. Two SF teams, M24 and SPR. Wasn't paying attention to the other weapons.

Kent Gooch was here briefly (he'll be here for the Sniper Conference on Friday, as hopefully will Rick). Mark Westrom (Armalite) showed me an M4-length select-fire AR-10 Carbine with full rail system and collapsing stock. OK, another gun I have to own.

InSain, CPT K sends his regards. Nice guy (wow, now there's a guy with a gun hobby)! Got the photo.

JR, you can come to the AMU any time for the "Windshield tour." We drive around and I show off my real estate, but the best part of the tour (truly) is the gun shop and the ammo shop. They make magic there.

The Army Chief of Staff told everybody in green suits on 7 October, "Every Soldier has got to be able to defend himself. Every Soldier has got to be a Rifleman First."

The U.S. Army Competitive Shooting Schedule for 2004:

Interservice Skill at Arms Meeting, Camp Robinson, Arkansas, January (Combat, allied teams invited).

All-Army Rifle and Pistol Championships, Fort Benning, January (combat and long range).

Interservice Pistol Championships, Camp Robinson, Arkansas (National Match Course).

National Pistol Trophy Matches, Camp Perry, Ohio (National Match Course).

Interservice Rifle Championships, Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, July (National Match Course, Infantry, and long range).

National Rifle Trophy Matches, Camp Perry, August (National Match Course, Infantry)

National Long Range Rifle Championships, Camp Perry, August (long range).

Armed Forces Small Arms Meeting, Camp Robinson, Arkansas, October (combat rifle and pistol, National Match Course, machinegun, and sniper. Allied teams invited)

Winston P. Wilson Matches, Camp Robinson, Arkansas, October (National Guard combat rifle and pistol, National Match Course, machinegun, and sniper).

These ain't F-class. Combat means cowboy'ed up in K-pot and web gear, some events with gas mask.

Sinister
Galloway Range, Fort Benning, Georgia, - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 03:24:44 (ZULU)

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 03:45:21 (ZULU)

A big Veterns Day thank you to all the vets and active duty troops, freedom has a high price tag. I'm in for a riffle raffle.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 04:43:00 (ZULU)

Sinister,

Been meaning to ask if Heuman shared any of those cigars he left Memphis with back during the summer. ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 05:11:18 (ZULU)

THANK YOU to all of the readers who have and are serving!!!! I really can not find strong enough words to express my gratitude for all that you have done!!! I did not serve but getting to know some of the guys my dad served with in Vietnam (65-68, 3rd Marine motor transport, mainly north by Da Nang, Phu Bi, Quan Tri area) I developed a pretty strong respect for the sacrifices made by our service men!

Mule,

Hmmmm.....guess somebody has to stir the pot, must be my turn. I'm not sure I could really go for the cam deal on scope. Granted, I don't have one, nor have I used one but since I live in a region where it is possible to shoot at any where from 1000 ft to 7000 ft above sea level at a match, I've noticed your dial ups change a bit depending on where your at. I've gotten pretty fond of an Mk4, M1, 16X on my 70 HBV, Leupold DD base and rings, handloads, and mainly shooting F-class Palma. I've not had any problems keeping track of how many MOA I've dialed in but I've not shot any sniper/tactical matches with a time constraint either. Will be shooting an AR-10T with Mk4, M1a Ultra 10X the end of this month at our "extra" / 5th Sunday of month match. We shoot 3, 5, and 600 yards on MR-63; 10X is bit low for precision holds for X ring at 5 and 6 but I'll have more info early in December. Sorry, I digressed a bit there; I'd vote for an M1LR 6.5-20 because the cams only help you if you stay at the same altitude/humidity/temp/velocity.........you get the idea. My two cents on M1 vs. M3; value drops by half as soon as the words leave my mouth so really only worth about one cent! :-)~

Oh yeah, use either JLK or Berger 175 VLD bullets if your going to shoot F-class match; sierras just don't keep up with the VLD bullets for this type of shooting. I've had wonderful results with the JLK 175 VLD. 200 yard zero, 27 MOA for 1000 yards with 175 JLK at 2750 fps at about 5500 ft altitude.

If your 70 is not bedded, bed it; makes big difference in consistancy. Hot glue bed job from Winchester is better then nothing until you take the rifle out of the stock for the first time. Catch me off-line for more about bedding the 70 if interested. Dang, down to one half cent value!!

FCS
NM, USA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 06:06:01 (ZULU)

Well no one mentioned veterans day here in box head land, but then i guess they lost so maybe then want to forget such days. I'm sure in all the Brit and US army/aAirforce camps about the country as well as in the variouse British and American legions that some form of rememberance was carried out. Due to servicemen and women bieng second class citizens here in europe i guess most other folks can't be bothered to say thanks. ah well maybe times will change.

Ken, ref the raffle, so is the state dept gonna have anything to say about you sending me that rifle to germany when i win it??? count me in..

Sinister, can you take note of what the Briticsh Snipers are using please and let me know, i'm sure they will be using either 300wm or 338 AI sniper rifles, but are they carrying that green and black SA80 ( L 85A? whatever number they are at by now) piece of shit or have they some other decent piece with them.

Joe M, i see nothing seems to have changed for the better.

Dry, i'll try to email you.. right i'm off to the range right now..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 08:20:11 (ZULU)

Sinister, glad to see you back. Sounds like your schedule is full thsi year. See you at the Shot Show?

On M3 versus M1 scopes, if someone is shooting back at you there is only one choice THE M3! No one counts the turns under the stress of poop running down your leg well. Its not an F Class X Ring comp its a get a hole in them first comp. And thats all I have to say on that.

Where the heck is the Catman? Rick?

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 12:29:34 (ZULU)

Rifle Raffle:

Count me in! Nice rig.

Question:

I got abt 500 rounds of LC90 7.62 brass from widener's (damn, it's good to live 30 minutes away from that store), and it has waterproof/sealant/powder residue on it. How do you guys clean that stuff the first time?

Tumbling (with/without polish) does little. Soaking in HOPPES #9 does wonders, but that's kind of $$$ way to go. Any ideas?

Was told about the Iosso cleaner you just dip brass in. Sounds good, but does anyone here have experience with it?

Rant (you've been warned)

Stinkin' lazy fat beer-swillin' (well OK: nobody's all bad) DISHONEST wannabepaid bast**ds cheating on gunnery last year are keeping my Reg. sidelined. They're from a different field grade unit within my Reg. This is rumor so far, but be sure I WILL persue this, and the lowlife stinking &@%*#($&$#@!!! will get drummed out of the service if it's confirmed, and I can manage it.

Scouts Out

Old Bill

Bill McCormick
Airborne, 82d, Cavalry Scout - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 12:45:00 (ZULU)

I have both a 6.5-20X50M1 and an M3LR, and I haven't yet finally decided which I want on my primary rifle for tactical matches, but it seems to me that if someone is shooting back at a sniper, it's time to E&E out of there. Bringing a bolt gun to a firefight seems like a losing proposition out of the box, but a mildot holdover/under is faster than tweaking any scope knob. Just my opinion...

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 12:46:03 (ZULU)

I agree with D.B. in K Town. Wisconsin boys are ready for a Riffle Raffle.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 13:05:45 (ZULU)

Lindy, no one ever plans to get shot back at and you cant always ExE. My verbage was simple to state that under combat stress the M3 has proven far superior to the 1/4moa scopes at normal sniper ranges. You dont need the fine adjustments of a M1 variant and under field conditions you would not see the difference. Granted once past 1000 yards the 1/4 moa has an advantage because of the enviornmental conditions and the 1moa being too course. I plaid with 1/4moa for many years before I switched to the M3 versions. It was a well thought out and good choice for me. Never been off a trun since and hit far faster at multiple ranges. The Army did something right here.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 13:11:39 (ZULU)

"I have both a 6.5-20X50M1 and an M3LR..."

Me too! The M3LR is on a True Tactical Rifle designed to engage man-sized targets at unknown distances as in Tactical Matches, and the 6.5-20x50M1 is on a Tactical Type Precision Rifle designed for F Class shooting or similar types of known distance shooting. Both are great scopes, but they serve entirely different purposes. Just MHO.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 13:15:20 (ZULU)

Mike: Well, what I'd really like is to have a 6.5-20X50M3, i.e., the 20 power with one-minute elevation knob, as I agree that the quarter-minute clicks are unnecessary. After milling targets, and looking at them through that 20 power glass, the M3 isn't quite as attractive.

Good luck with your operation, by the way. I hope you get really good results from it.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 13:20:13 (ZULU)

Since I'm new to this sight, what can anyone tell me about the raffle spoken of, ie. how it will be run and the fee?

Steve S
Airborne Ft. Bragg, NC, usa - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 14:12:18 (ZULU)

Steve S,

Now, you don't really expect me to tell you how to win my rifle, do you?

Seriously though... I'll take a crack at answering your question, knowing that someone will pipe up if I'm way off base. In the past, the raffle has been opened for a set period of time. During that window of opportunity, participants e-mail Ken with a request for tickets. Ticket numbers are assigned in the order that the e-mails are received. A bunch of little pieces of paper with the appropriate numbers are placed in the proverbial hat, and someone (usually Ken's pastor) chooses a ticket at random.

Payment is usually either mailed to Ken, or done through PayPal online. If no payment is received before the draw date, that person's tickets are removed from the draw.

As to the fee... I think it was $50 per ticket in the past, but I could be horribly wrong.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

Jeff C
NB, Canada - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 14:36:20 (ZULU)

Tickets have been $25.00 in the past.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 14:49:02 (ZULU)

'lito, incoming, ref: Garmin, clean.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 14:52:01 (ZULU)

Non-sniper post.

Lurker for over 3 years seeking help w/ black powder rifle for deer hunting. State requires min. of .44 cal is about the only real restriction. As a former competitive small bore & high power shooter I'm looking for accuracy more than bore diameter. Lots to choose from but have not researched them, too confusing.

Recommendations?? Any to stay away from??

Feel free to hit me off-line at scottkangas100athotmail.com. Thanks! and back to lurk mode....

Scott Kangas
Davenport, Iowa, USofA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 15:07:39 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on the raffle.

On an early post, ref every soldier (army) should be trained as infantry, I fully agree! I spent 14+ yrs in active and reserve duty, and found that soldiers could really use a better rounded basic training to include infantry! The marine coprs does it right. Its really being shown in Iraq, where there are artillery and support units now doing patrols in cities and towns. MPs get enough infantry training but the ohters dont. I'm proud to have held the MOS(s) 11B and 95B. All soldiers today should go through a basic infantry program before going onto other MOS specific schools!

Steve S
Airborne Ft. Bragg, NC, usa - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 15:17:58 (ZULU)

STOP TEESING about a riffle raffle and just tell me where to send my money ; )

I too wish premier would offer the M3 in higher magnification, but I would rather put up with "only" 10x than have all them leetle clicks.

And FCS if altitude changes the M3 is not useless, you just dial 600yds + - 2 clicks. Thats still faster/easier than counting revolutions on a turret.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 15:35:49 (ZULU)

4i's

I didn't mean to say that the M3 was useless, just that many of the proposed advantages of dial in 800 and go tend to disappear when you dial in 800 + 2 MOA. I'll also admit that I shoot primarily F-class, will get into tactical shooting, and have never been shot at. Since Mule was going to be shooting competitions other than just tactical matches (or that was my understanding of his post) I thought he should consider a higher magnification scope.

Remembering my dial ups for the local match, match 1000 feet higher, and 4000 feet lower is not really that much harder then 800 + 2 MOA. That little 75 on my M1 lets me know I'm in the first rev up, another hash mark lets me know I'm in the 2 rev up. Main disadvantage is I've gotta take almost two rev of elevation to get my 1k zero and you do it in one; can see where that would be a big help when the proverbial brown stuff is running down your leg.

Course that being said, when I set up my tactical rifle for going to Badlands, I'll probably be using an M3 because the rifle is set up to hit man sized targets not X rings.

If you are unable to set up a dedicated rifle for what you are doing, highest probability is that you will end up with some compromises.

Mule,

Bias your scope choice towards the type of competition you will be shooting the most. Mainly tactical go with M3; going to be doing fair amount of F-class then 6.5-20 M1LR is about the minimum so you can do a precision hold for X-ring.

FCS
NM, USA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 16:03:40 (ZULU)

primer sealant-acetone or lacqer(?) thinner should dissolve it.

WR Moore
Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 16:12:10 (ZULU)

I understand F class. I just only train and compete with what I would use to save my life. I use standard type 1911's for pistols and sniper rifles for sniper rifles. No gaming from me.

On the rifle raffle, nice rig from Chandler but I will wait for GA Precision built SC Limited Edition rifles #1 and #2 to be raffled off before I put any money down. Need a chance to get some of 20 the slings I donated for this back. Chandler's dont have my sling on them. LMAO. One serious question is why they put a muzzle break on a 308 sniper rifle? Someone will get a nice rig on this.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 17:05:55 (ZULU)

WR Moore:

I'm sure the primer sealant is lacqer, more curious about the sealant in the neck (same?) and the powder residue (all over). Had some good suggestions for clean-up. If interested hit me off roster.

rifleraffleriflerafflerifleraffle.... probably don't stand a snowball's chance, but the idea fairly makes my mouth water.

Old Bill

Bill McCormick
82d Airborne, '86-'90, F/2/278 ACR now - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 17:54:22 (ZULU)

Jessica Lynch as "Hero":

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/hart200311121020.asp

May Audie Murphy, Leonard Funk, Tony Herbert, Alvin York, Hanneken, Puller and their like enjoy eternity in Valhalla. They earned it the old-fashioned way.

CDC'
Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 18:00:30 (ZULU)

Bring on the Riffle raffle!

20X vs. 10X is a non issue out here in Mirage paradise. About 14 is all you can use unless it's a very cloudy cool day. I was shooting 1k yestday with a 10x with funny circles in the reticle and getting less than 1MOA at 1k most of the time with 5 shots and considerable mirage. The target was a 4" black dot on white paper. I really do doubt that 1inch or move it half way 1/2" click system on the M-3 for 1k bullseye shooting. Again we are using a slow reticle system for tactical shooting when we opt for Mil Dots and turrets and every little bit of time saving helps. The 160 jump, 1/4" click systems are too combersome for any kind of fast work and way to easily confused for Police work or any kind of hostage rescue. You should be familiar with where each Mil Dot on the reticle is going to print if you need the time in emergency that you don't have time to do the math.

Speaking of that I tried the Leica 1200 yd rf this week. Yes it finally got out here in the sticks. It's everything it's cracked up to be by those who have tried it here on SC. Black cow range is only about 400 yds max but that's damn good. 1200 yards on houses and barns no problem. I could read my 6' 1000 yard target no problem in high sunlight. Sorry just a little ramblin today.

Also shot a 10FP Savage with Accutrigger. I think we are gonna have to get over our adversion to those seemingly flimsy savage stocks and admit to ourselves that perhaps its better to let the stock conform to the action and barrel. Damn thing shot 6 groups in one hole each time. They have a McMillian stocked version for about 9bills but that has to be a serious weapon. This SOB got my attention.

Brogers
Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 18:15:25 (ZULU)

CDC,

Don't turn on that girl..She didn't ask for this shite..Hell, I'd think about hooking up with her, but being West By Gawd Virginian, I ain't kin, therefore I don't qualify...bwahahah...

Sinster,

Ooh ooh, someday mate, someday...that would rock, thanks!!! I think I'd have to bring the old man, he went to jump school at Benning..Oh, and by the way, I live in Dumfries and GALLOWAY county of Scotland..Must be fate..ha.. Yup they do well here for rememberance sunday, had the pipes and drums in full force here for church service and then after to Buccleuch Hall...Was cool as hell..

Pete,

just think how the new EU history books will be written regarding the war to end all wars and WTEAW mark II..There will be no Britain, no France, no Germany, no Italy etc, etc...It will be the gluttonous US and Norway and Russia vs Euro and Asia..mark my words..As far as what British Super Bad Sammy's are carrying, based on our production I'd say 338 Lap, 308 win, 50 BMG, and a few 300 WinMags floating about...Not sure on their support rifles, but probably the SA 80(they're not going to let it go mate!!)..

And on that note:

My neighbor found out her dog could hardly hear so she took

>it

> > >to the veterinarian. He found the problem was hair in its ears and

>cleaned

> > >both ears and the dog could hear fine.

> > >

> > > The veterinarian told the lady if she wanted to keep this

>from

> > >recurring, she could go to the store for 'Nair' hair remover and rub it

>in

> > >its ears once a month.

> > >

> > > The lady goes to the drugstore and gets some Nair. At the

> > >register, the druggist tells her "If you're going to use this under your

> > >arms, don't use deodorant for a few days." The lady responds: "I'm not

> > >using it under my arms."

> > >

> > > The druggist says: "If you're using it on your legs,don't

> > >shave for a couple of days." The lady answers: "I'm not using it on my

>legs

> > >either, and if you must know, I'm using it on my schnauzer."

> > >

> > > The druggist says: "Stay off your bicycle for a week."

Stay cool

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 19:59:26 (ZULU)

JR: I haven't got a bad word to say about that girl. She was doing her job and she got hit. God bless her for it and I hope she lives a long and happy life. But our definition of "hero" has come a long way since Stonewall Jackson at First Manassas or Chamberlin at Little Roundtop.

CDC'
Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 20:36:10 (ZULU)

Guessing hero is something that comes in degrees. Every soldier that sets foot in those Godforsaken places is a hero to all of us here and degrees don't matter much. My Aunt was a office worker in the WAC's in Honolulu waiting for her sailor with the fleet when Pearl was bombed. He went to sea and she was moved to San Diego with her child still unborn. ( He became a Navy pilot by the way). Things were simplier in those days. Men went to war. We took care of our women and children. We had a tendency to kill the enemy and take over his damn country whether he liked it or not. When it was ALL over we built him back with what was left on our terms. Opposition was crushed before we danced the victory boogie. We never heard Bush's warnings, we never considered the inevitable consequences we now face. It's a time to raise the ships and kick some asses, not to wimp because somebody got raped. Many a Nun or Missionary fell to much worse or at least as bad in the big ones. Jessica survived and lived to tell about it. It should serve as a warning to those who want to pursue the terrible craft of war. It's not the best way to get your college degree. Not saying Jessica joined for that reason but many a reservist reupped and young soldier joined thinking they'd never be called to duty.

Brogers
Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 21:29:48 (ZULU)

BRogers,

I have the savage 10fp w/accu and i wont traid it away! Counldnt afford the MCmillin stock, went with a laminate from Boyds stocks, doing minor work on it (bedding), will be shooting it in a week or two, but it shot great in the synthetic it came with.

Steve S
Airborne Ft. Bragg, NC, usa - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 21:42:44 (ZULU)

Folks,

Back on board, new 'puter up and running after a 4 hr. session with a spec north of here last night. Now all I gotta do is learn a whole new system.

Ken, thanks for all your help.

Is that Chandler fluted all the way out to the muzzle?

I might buy a ticket if the barrel can be cut to a proper length.........

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 21:54:14 (ZULU)

'yote bate,

I think you would find that most of the reservists/guards know for a fact that there is one hell of a chance they will be called up for duty in their brief military part time career, hell we all have to take history class to gradumicate, and we have been paying attention..Maybe it's my home state pride kickin in, but SoDak Air and army national guard is on the forefront of many of our past and present hostilities..Our recruits know this..I for one know one certain gal that would call you everything but white if you told her she reupped just for the bennies, and didn't know what she was getting in to..she knows the price..As did Ms Lynch, I am sure..

I do have to say this, the kids we're sending to the front today are better prepared than the kids we sent yesteryear..If you take offense to that, you need to pay attention...We learned from prior mistakes, we have evolved, which is why to this day we still kick ass, with far fewer numbers than WTEAW Mark II...

Now my idea is, let's pull the troops back to Afghan, and let our own 'suicide bomber', aka Minuteman, bring Iraq to peace and quiet...You see those sunspots we had recently, well, I think Iraq could make one hell of a solar panel which would power us away from the sun's deadly grasp...Hell, name it babylon..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 22:12:21 (ZULU)

Riffle Raffle, you betcha. Please leave muzzle break off. No can use at Butner for F-Podhead class. Like Mike said, why would you need a muzzle break on a 308?

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 22:58:41 (ZULU)

Muzzle brake - quit yer bitchin..... :)

Raffle notes - now younz are used to a raffle that has one prize rifle.. right.... well ...

Ken Hunter
nokesville, Va, USofA - Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 23:58:07 (ZULU)

Gents,

I have to weigh in with Mike on this one. WHY put a muzzle brake on a .308? I can see having it threaded for a suppressor, but a muzzle brake? All the do is kick crap up and give you away...now a "can" is right up my alley.

Elk hunting this weekend. Would love to get one...well see. Going into the dark places where they are holed up after last weeks first hunt. If I get one I don't know where I'll put it...just took delivery of 200+ pounds of prime beef from my sister's farm. Oh, well. It's a problem I'd like to have...

Started a new work out regimen today. Not overdoing it, but working up. I am not going to have a damn heart attack at 52! It's going to be a long road back.

Get's go on the raffle!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 00:36:55 (ZULU)

JR; I agree with your plan for turning Iraq into a silicon factory anyhow. And obviously most actives would deny they didn't think they'd get called up. You know what? I hope your right about that too. There are so many recruiters here working with that get a education, have fun and enjoy the travel theme, it's hard for me to think it hasn't worked on some of them. I'd not say that serving in any fashion isn't a good thing. But the women in combat thing is just hard for me to warm up too. I don't have a problem with women serving but combat is a problem for me. ahh hell, it just ain't right to me.

Brogers
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 00:37:03 (ZULU)

Ken.

The raffle is to support the site, right?

If so, my money is ready.. bring it.

Oh, and it's also really nice that someone is gonna win a rifle too.

CDC - since when do you listen to the yellow press? The girl hasn't claimed to be a hero as far as I can tell...exactly whom are you reacting too?

medicjim
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 01:33:51 (ZULU)

Concerning Miss Lynch.....I am proud of her, however the larger issue is why a politically correct bunch of looney toones sees fit to place American Womanhood in the situation she was in. It is insanity to require a different standard in training for women and then place them in combat situations simply because it makes us "feel good". It's a damned shame when a few judges and politically motivated nitwits create a situation such as this, mind you TOTALLY UN-NECESSARY,whereby a young girl from West Virginia goes through what she did for a few gov't perks. I do not question her motivations, Patriotism, or Honor at all. She has given more than I, and may have very well known fully the risks involved. Nevertheless this has got to be the most diabolical case of bait and switch on the part of the U.S. government and our society as a whole, that I have ever been witness to.

God help the ones who give the orders which place our young women in this position and a pox on the judges who force them to......It is insanity.......

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 01:47:12 (ZULU)

'Yote,

I agree 100% that the recruiters are going 'round promoting world wide travel plans, with free edjumication and a monthly pay plan as well, without mentioning the real facts...Been there, done that, which is why I didn't join(was a righteous smart ass punk then, sometimes I could just slap myself)..I think I scored in the top 1% on my ASVAB's, so if it wasn't every week, it was every other week the recruiters, ie slimeballs, were trying to convince me in such manner, hounded my ass..But, once the grunts get thru Basic and AIT and find their job, these kids are hard and for the most part realise what the hell they are up against..

Aint a helluva lot different now then in the olden black and white days, ya know, BC(Before Color)TV...I remember dad recalling when he enlisted, recruiters kissed his arse, his moms arse, dad's arse, with a wide ole smile, hell 'nam ain't nothin but a holiday spot...then he got on the bus that took him to basic, whole new ball game..there were DI's on board then, you friggin maggot...full grown men were bawling and trying to escape before they even made it to base camp..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 01:49:45 (ZULU)

If these P.C. bastards believe in their "program" so much, let them try to make her experience the sales pitch for future female recruitment........

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:01:19 (ZULU)

muzzle break;

I would prefer not to have it. Maybe have it available to the winner as an option? What about having caliber as an option too? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to win it in any form!

Lynch;

I think the reason we hear and see so much about her is that she is the liberal media darling. I'm not saying it is by her own choice.

The liberal left is run by many factions including feminists. They found a fairly cute, all American looking young woman who endured a bad situation. Now they will exploit that and the "new" Army is in full support of it.

I mean, why not turn all of the POWs into celebrities? They all were captured, right? None gave in, right?

I'm not real fond of women in the military either. Just to old fashioned I guess. I'm not in the Army anymore, so I don't have to live with that.

And that's all I got to say 'bout that. ;)

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:08:10 (ZULU)

Bruce, you got mail.......no att........

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:18:19 (ZULU)

Turn Iraq into a glass factory? Come on guys. All of Iraq aint the problem its a small number of terrorists who are killing just about as many Iraqis as occupation forces.

Our guys will get a handle on this. I just think we called off offensive operations too quickly. I dont think we ever got a surrender did we?? We just stopped and took over.

DOes anyone have any historial references regarding the occupation of post war Germany and Japan? I would really like to read up on that some.

Spent the last couple of days at Benning. Great kids here.

Out

Gooch
BumFuck, AR, US of A - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:49:47 (ZULU)

As usual, I'm a couple years late on this question. I wanted to get you guys' opinion on the QuickCuff sling. Is anyone using them? They sound very nice. Does anyone have anything bad to say about them? Are they "match legal"?

Off the subject...I went to my club to watch the high power match this weekend. It's a 600 yd match. Anyway, there all all these guys with amazing custom rifles there. This 20 year old girl shows up and wins the match and sets a new course record with a borrowed rifle. Her name is Sherri Gallagher. From what I understand she's the world long distance champ in one of the disciplines...(not sure which). Very fun to watch.

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, ne, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 03:26:10 (ZULU)

Fire UP that raffle. I'm on for it!

None of the REAL heroes meant to be heroes that I ever heard of. Visited with and worked for 2 or 3 MOH recepients during my time in.

I watched that bitch asking Lynch some of those questions last night. I got the impression that the little LADY (and I mean that w/ respect) wants the public to know just how bad these assholes really are that we're trying to eradicate over there and elsewhere. She probably figures that she has to "dance w/ the devil" in order to get her message out.

Come to think of it, if that's true, she IS a hero. But what CDC said in his explanation about his first post is right on the mark. She was there and got hit. In that situation, she was a victim, like so many others...

I had some females that were peers and also my troops in the old days. A couple of 'em were what I used to call "Studs". (They told me they liked that term, later.) Hard-assed, tough farm girls. Whip the shit outa most of my male troops. If push came to shove, I woulda been happy to have 'em on post "in the shit".

BUT. They STILL don't belong in COMBAT, DAMMIT!

USe the M3LR w/ GenII. Shot a LOT and keep your dope book. Don't need no dedicated dial.

SPUD

And Semper -Fi to ALL my brethren in arms, past and present. (And YES, the females, too.)

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 03:46:44 (ZULU)

Ernie Pyle quote by Medicjim;

Hard to put into words...

Helped some over...

One of the toughest things you'll ever do.

Anybody up for a toast w/ some old No.57?

I SURE as hell am.

To the FALLEN!

Mike,you know of Odin's Triangle?

My remaining sons and I will be wearing one as soon as Eric (the middle boy) finishes drawing it up.

Spud

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 04:33:58 (ZULU)

JR, don't ride the bike for a week, ha ha,schnauzer,laughed my ass off.. you save some more of them jokes for the IWA.

Basic training.. the British basic training has become some what of a cake walk, instructors ain't allowed in to the barrack blocks after 21.00 or before 06.00, soldiers are turning up at active units unable to pass basic fitness tests. The reason bieng that young civies are going soft, spend to much time playing on the PC and the play station and not enough time out doors and running around, they are turning up at recruit depot with no preparation at all. The basic training has had to be softened to avoid very high failure rates, and the basic training period(boot camp) of what is it now 12 weeks or so justain't long enough to get these blokes fit enough for active duty, the responsibility is then passed on to the training staff within the active unit these fellows end up at,which is great when you turn up to a unit unfit and deploy within a few weeks. The recruiting staff have to sell the job, like selling any other job, and they naturaly say more about the positive sides of military life, damn if they had told me you'll end up with heamoroids from sleeping in holes in the ground, a screwed up knee and most of the officers you will meet will be total wankers, maybe i'd have thought twice about joining, and after serving we all do the same as the recruiters, forget the bad times and remember the good, basicaly anyone entering the British army is, compared to thier civilian counterpart, on the slow track to a promising career, how often do soldiers see thier civie counterparts advance through a career path far far quicker than within the Military, you give 22 years and come out at 40 ish and are(unless you had a trade within the military) almost umeployable, exept maybe in the security industry, so you end up guarding a supermarket, whilst all your friends from school are managers, or other professionals on big bucks, with flash cars and nice houses, whilst you are driving an old car because you sold your tax free mercedes to pay off some debts and you are living public housing.Sure, some guys end up differently, some further educate and get decent jobs, but i bet the above scenario is fitting for probably 60% of all Brit retirees who have served between 12 and 22 years. Some time in the Military is good for anyone, but unless you intend to complete the full time and then go onto extended service, i wouldn't recomend staying any longer than about 6 years. When i joined basic training was a bitch, and i was very well prepared and fit, P coy was worse and JMC (corporal qualif) worse still, character(sp) building and purposefull training that has proved usefull in many situations,I am glad i left at 10 years,i certainly have a far more promising career ahead of me than i would have if i had stayed in. anyway, ive gone tataly off track now, what i wanted to get onto was that every soldier should be trained as a soldier, yes agree with that, it was so when i was in, with not just infantry deploying in the infantry role but tank regts, transport and Arty regts, mechanics, cooks, techs and yes ARMOURERS all spending time deployed as infantry, where the system fell down a bit was continuation training for non infantry soldiers in infantry tactics and methods, i was lucky, bieng for most of my career with Infantry Bns, i got out with the toms and the jocks and did thier training, was part of a Coy and got on every exercise and trainig course i could (sure beat guarding the damn barracks) not to mention bieng Armourer for and shooting on the shooting team constantly. But for the most part there isn't enough money or time spent on continualy training non Infantry soldiers in thier basic infantry skills, its fine in peace time but when the shit hits the fan it causes problems.

anyhow, enough of that.

Got to the range yesterday ( 6 hours late) and am very pleased with the performance of my 308 hunting rifle with Norma 180 grain vulkan soft point factory ammo, getting 10 shot groups about an inch( which was me wobbling a bit) and 3 shot groups of about 15mm, which ain't bad for a reworked factory stick with factory ammo, i did spy a stainless Remington 700 at the range that was for sale, it was a 300 weatherby mag, with a leupold on it.. can't afford it, i need 2 new doors for the newly built rooms in the house,a arrrggg.

Jon, B, confirmed order of all the kit you wanted.

Elk hunting.... i am extreemly jealouse.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 07:36:34 (ZULU)

I have been reading this site and shooting with quite a number of the regular posters for over the past four years, but I don't ever recall reading a post from Chandler. I am not knocking the guy or his products, as I understand that they are both top notch, but aren't raffles about funding worthwhile causes and recognizing regular contributors?

Michael
CA, - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 07:41:53 (ZULU)

Gents,

Oh darn! A muzzle break! My advice is to stay away from this raffle. Yep--don't youz buy a ticket; notta one! I'd hate for ya if ya had to endure a muzzle break.

And just to be fair, I will step up and win this stick so youz won't hafta worry none...I think I have room in the safe for a breaked 308, maybe one slot---so it ain't no problem.

I know, mighty big of me...but heck--that's what friends are for!

Now when I win; how do I take possession? Can policewoman (wife V3.1) take delivery? Heheh, even if I could get it here--getting it home would be tricky.

BGs making noises all around. Something wicked is afoot---pray for our troopers vigilance...and why not, add one for KMOI too; you can only be so good---a little luck is always nice. All I can say is forewarned; forearmed remains to be seen. And, I hope that "cry wolf" hasn't taken any toll from the previous chatter; some warnings are far better than others. Too bad the specifics in each case are close hold; the troops only hear "stand-to" but not the "why" of it. Like I said, some "why's" are better than others. These last days of Ramadan may be busier than the first days...to include CONUS.

Too bad I already have such a deep hatred of terrorists, because I could really start to despise them about now...heheh.

On a side note: Terrorists are referred to as "gurrillas" in the local press (fairly moderate by our standards) As in, "Hezbollah Guerrillas struck at Israeli Occupation zones, four invaders dead" or, in our lingo--terrorists struck civilian settlements killing a family of four. It is a sad state of affairs when "friendly" arab nations are sympathetic towards animals who target women and kids...GW had it right, this is a long struggle on many fronts. One of which is popular opinion in the middle eastern region--that must be addressed or we just fight them as fast as they birth them.

And we bitch about a 'liberal bias' in our press....heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 09:17:40 (ZULU)

MAJ Joe's right re muzzle break (AND barrel length) guys: quite your bitchin'! You haven't been paying attention anyway: the man said it was already made, in the box, ready to ship. Oh heck, the MAJ's right about about the raffle too: stay away! You don't want that sub-standard stick with the long barrel, somebody might think you were a poser! Oh, and sorry Joe: must be present to win, guess I'LL have to accept the burden of owning this rifle.... ;o)))

Iraq as glass parking lot:

Frustration talking, sure I feel the same sometimes, but you guys all know better. I was warned that we had people unsympathetic to our sport & worldview monitoring this site: lets not give the idiots any more retorical ammo.

NG & Reserves:

There are definitively some who signed up with no thought of ever having to pay the price. That is also true for active duty (OK, before you jump: I've been both). This is the pay-back for the army adopting a recruiting scheme that sells benefits, adventure, & career instead of service. I've spoken against it. I've even gone out on my own hook to recruit on the basis of Duty, Honor, Service. Much as it pains me to say it, the Corps has always had this right, and they reap the benefits. The Army is in dire need of a top-down enema: there are an awful lot of high-ranking people who need to be gone. -rant off-

PFC Lynch:

She's OK in my book. I've never heard anything from her claiming, or pretending to be anything she's not.

Women in Combat:

Against it. The reasons are legon: physical, mental, social. We all know what they are: listing them for this crowd is pointless. One note though: I don't think anyone here would begrudge a female wanting to serve her country, and there are plenty of jobs for them to do (that they'd probably do better than a man anyway). The disbandment of the WACs was a sad day for the Army. Those who've pushed us to this sorry state of afairs (where young girls like PFC Lynch are wounded & captured in combat) will bear a heavy load when they come before thier Creator.

Bill McCormick
82d Airborne, '86-'90, F/2/278 ACR now - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 13:12:08 (ZULU)

Pete,

Trying to reach you via email but getting returned. Need info on Infantry bergans.

Thanks,

Bill

LMALTERNA**@AOL.COM without the **

Bill Moore
Rnke, VA, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 13:33:08 (ZULU)

I ran across an interesting note on the disparity in post-war casualties in Iraq between the Marines and the Army. The Army patrols largely in vehicles. The Marines largely patrol afoot. Guess what gets attacked? Right - the vehicles. When the vehicles are attacked, everyone has to bail out, and much effort is expended handling the casualties. If the Marines come under fire, they attack. At one time, when the author wrote the note I saw, the casualty disparity was a ratio of 50 to 1. I hope someone is paying attention to that, and perhaps someone is, as I note more Marines are headed back to Iraq as part of the rotation, but it would be a good idea to get patrols out of those vehicles where possible.

Please note that I'm not trying to disparage the Army, just point out a procedure which isn't working.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 13:41:10 (ZULU)

On Lynch,

Not exactly sure about her, she playin the interview circuit and reaping rich rewards. Anyone hear if the media is planning on noticing the soldiers that were her fellow POWs? Or the ones that died fighting in the ambush? Enough said....just let if go... the media wanted a darling and they played it up. She's a pawn by this liberal #ss media in america.

The comments made about foot vs. vehicle patrols... Army has always been a slow learning machine at times. Dont mean to make ppl mad, (I'm a 14 yr vet-Army)...its a problem that can only be fixed by general grade officers getting out of thier well protected CPs and ridiing along with the patrol. Not gonna happen. But glad to see we're taking a more agressive posture last few days. Gurrillas put fear into the population to either support them or stay out of it, so a little fear from us might reverse the trend.

On another note, pray for our vietnam vets...saw a news story last night that the gov. is now going after MIKE FORCE soldiers for war crimes that were committed in Nam. What reason is there to be diggin that up now?

Steve S out

Steve S
Airborne Ft. Bragg, NC, usa - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 14:59:03 (ZULU)

Gooch; Anyway your right about ceasing offensive operations too soon. Right at this moment we are looking at a potential Vietnam if we don't get back to kickin ass. There were some attempts yesterday to do just that. Hopefully it will reaffirm we ain't there for a picnic in Grenada.

Joe; One mans terrorist is another man's guerilla/freedom fighter. That how you tell what side they are really on. I think that was the point you were trying to make.

Peter L. ; we got the same problem over here. These kids can't lift anything larger than a 6 pack. Somehow we get em ready and send em to hell like always but they start out far underprepared for what they are going too. I've always said if wars had to be fought by 50 year old draftees there'd be very few wars. Guess that's been the case since the first army was formed. Nobody has joined in this country to lose a war. We used to have this "draft" system whereby we took em all in that could march and kept the ones that proved they could fight and die. But we're a "kinder gentlier" country of nice guys now. We offer our women and minorities the same opportunity and color it political correctness. We don't even have the luxury of religious faniaticism to build enough hate to make a real shit kickin warrior.

It's a wonder that people aren't knockin down our sky scrapers with hijacked aircraft while we sleep at the wheel ignoring the threat if the enemy is of a different religious faith or culture.

Brogers
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 14:59:14 (ZULU)

OK, I have some things for ya'll to ponder.

Gooch mentioned the postwar occupation of Germany and Japan, but we do not have a similar situation. He also mentioned that we stopped the war too soon, which is another issue I'd like to address as well. So, here goes:

Stopping the war too soon. This one was determined by the ragheads. When they stopped resisting, we stopped the militray ops and started going into occupation ops, there isn't much we could have done otherwise and not looked like barbarians. Now here's the controversial part, we needed to act like barbarians.

Germany and Japan were easy occupations because we CONQUERED THEM. Germany took over 10 million casualties and Japan over 4 million and both of their countries were rubbled and their populations starving. It's hard to resist with a distended belly. Sorry, but the ragheads ain't even close to this level yet and we won't let them get there. Without the emminent threat of eradication, the fuckers are not going to take a nice hard look at themselves and sort themselves out. They know we are not going to do this to them, and thus they continue to resist. The Germans and Japanese were defeated and they knew they were defeated. The Iraqi rags are resisting the same as the Palestinian rags, they have not been convinced that they have lost yet.

We should have simply let the USAF bomb Iraq for a few monthes with iron bombs from B1's and B52's. Really rubble everything and start the starvation process. Make sure that very little food gets smuggled into the country. After you bomb them out, then you can go in and conduct the ground war, win that and start the occupation/rebuilding process from square one.

That would have been the ideal solution. Now, we have to do this the Malaysian way, isolate the bad groups and starve them out until the locals give them up. This is going to take mucho cojones and we're going to get really hammered by the internationalists. Love is not an emotion expressed by a group, hate and fear are. They will never love us, it is not possible except in brief little meaningless snippets. We will have to accept their respect and fear of our power in place of love.

Recommended reading: Victor Davis Hanson, Ralph Peters.

Dulles on the occupation of Germany: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20031101facomment82601/allen-w-dulles/that-was-then-allen-w-dulles-on-the-occupation-of-germany.html

Click on my name for the US DoD history. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M
USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 16:03:58 (ZULU)

Gent's and Ladies;

Okay, let's get this rifleraffle on the go! I leave for a Bahamian cruise tomorrow and won't be able to lurk for the next two weeks! I ask you to either get the raffle set up, or at least keep it open until after Turkey day so I can sign up-- muzzie break or not!

Policies? Hell, I build bombs for a living (legitimately... no subversion intended!!!), so I may have an over-simplistic view. While many here (western world) think we have to pussify our actions to show we're "human", many of the turd world areas don't view this as anything but a sign of weakness. David didn't appease Goliath with a kind word and a soft hand, he KILLED him. Ditto on the previous posts RE: the DEFEAT of Germany and Japan. We didn't stop as soon as they were no longer a "significant" threat. We beat the hell out of them and took away their will to fight, and now look where they are... two of the most techicaly advanced countries in the world, thanks to the policies WE set up after OCCUPATION. Sometimes I think back to my very un-PC days, I guess I won't repeat here in case lefties are lurking. They don't need any more ammo agains a warmonger.

Anyone seen the following list?:

Egypt; $2Billion, 79%

Jordan; $193Million, 71%

India; $143.7M, 81%

Pakistan; $6.7M

Sudan; $1.1M

What is it? It's how much we (US taxpayers) send to those places, and the percentage is how often they vote AGAINST our interests in the UN. Also our friends the Kuwaitis, 67%; Qatar, 67%; Morocco, 70%; Saudi Arabia, 73%, fo the amount of negative support we get from these folks. I often wonder why we even bother. They've been fighting each other for years, and they'll continue to do so no matter what some outside source tries to do. Somewhere back in their history some Mustaffa got his goat stolen so he beat up the thief and they've all been pissed at each other since. In order for there to be any peace there-- or anywhere-- someone's got to let go of the past and get on with their lives.

Sorry folks,

RANT OFF:

Tim

Caison
, East coast, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 18:11:59 (ZULU)

FWIW

On 60-Minutes last Sunday, they interviewed one of the soldiers who was in Lynch's group. He had run up the road to steal a truck in order to help the team escape, came across some Iraqi's with a mortar. They were trying to finish off the group. He killed them, saving the lives of the other soldiers, before being captured. Not bad, given his M-16 was jamming every round. Won a medal for it.

Duman
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 19:00:38 (ZULU)

To All:

Tim's post is dead on. We should simply ask these nations to forgo any further foreign aid from the USA, as a matter of principle, since they don't agree with our policies, then cut off every nickel.

I, for one , will not apologize for my opinions (and that's all they are) regarding a vigorous prosecution of the war as it relates to pockets or regions of resistance. I will be damned if I let fear of some media lurker censor my opinions. Anybody on the board who wants to edit this post is welcome to.

I'm tired of seeing our boys and girls die.

I will not see my dear friend who perished on Flt. 93 until I go to the next life, nor will her sister or mother.

There are a lot of wives, husbands, sons, daughters and other relatives and friends who have a long wait to be reunited with their loved ones who have been killed by these butchers.

We didn't start this fight, but I bet we finish it.

Let them fear us if they will not love us, and stop killing our people, and we will leave and help them to rebuild their country, as we have done so many times in the past.

I don't want war, I want peace. But if a rabid dog is coming down the sidewalk toward your daughter, you shoot him. Even if you love dogs.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 19:46:09 (ZULU)

Postwar Japan:

http://www.figureconcord.com/ublog/archives/000808.html

instapundit.com had photocopies of news stories from postwar Germany. German men were killing and mutilating American GIs. The New York Times was having fits.

The more things change...

Young men are not more intelligent than young women. They are not more logical nor are they more competent. But a larger proportion of them are capable of being physically stronger, meaner, crazier and more agressively violent.

Women serve to make men more gentle. Do we want gentler Paratroopers and Marines?

"...In peace there's nothing so becomes a man

As modest stillness and humility:

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,

Then imitate the action of the tiger;

Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,

Disguise fair nature with hard-favored rage;

Then lend the eye a terrible aspect."

Shakespeare

CDC'
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 19:49:51 (ZULU)

Tim, Bruce,

Your dead on! We (the US) should stop paying countries (foreign aid) to bad mouth the US and foster hate against Americans. The middle east is wealthy enough that Saudi Arabia and some others should give aid to those countries, but, that story of the goat, they dont like each other enough to do that. ANother Idea... lets forget the Useless Nitwits (UN) and pull out of that failure. Its become something it was never intended to be when Roosevelt first worked on its creation.

Shooting..... Anyone in the NC area heading to the shoot at Butner this sunday?

Steve S
Airborne Ft. Bragg, NC, usa - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 20:04:21 (ZULU)

This is extremely good:

"As a decorated combat veteran of the Vietnam War, Kerry should know the difference between the kind of major operations he took part in and the pinprick attacks now being made by Baathist remnants and Islamist terrorists. Instead, he would rather try to spark panic and then exploit it for personal gain, actions which should disqualify him from public office."

"President Bush will not be terrorized into retreating, though there is the danger that continuing casualties could be exploited politically by those Democrats who seem to welcome being terrorized."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/hawkins200311131102.asp

Or click my name.

The only way we will lose this is if we just flat-ass chicken-out. Anybody just plain dog dumb enough to think that will buy us peace needs to go hide under the bed and wait.

CDC'
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 20:48:34 (ZULU)

Steve S.... I'm headed down from Northern Va. on Sat. morning....

Hey Ken....I bet that damn stick ain't "left-handed" either, but count me in also.....what the hell, I'll find someone to give it to...muzzle break and all !!!!!! Let the riffle raffle begin....

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 21:03:38 (ZULU)

Bolt-what's the weather forecast (guess) for Sunday. Guess I ought to ask if the Butner match is still on. Been trying to get to one all damn year, finally off duty for one. Woudda helped if one of my wife's damn brood mares hadn't kicked me in the chest about a month ago! (Cartoons are right: you do fly through the air and end up with a hoof print.)

WR Moore
Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 21:08:07 (ZULU)

Sitrep:

Snow....High winds....Cold....Power Out.....It's winter in upstate New York....yeeeehaaa!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, N, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 21:49:54 (ZULU)

Foreign aid:

Nothing but Bul***it. Except for disaster relief, I've never understood why we did it in the first place. Tim's right: they hate us regardless, let'em pay thier own bills, I've got my own.

Bruce:

My caution on language here has nothing to do with my ideas on prosecuting the war (we should be going after these hold-out, foreign jihadist, alqeada bast**ds hammer and tongs until they're D-E-A-D), and everything to do with winning the battle here at home for continuing the fight until it's done. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a little brutality on our part, provided it was directed towards the right people. But turning women & children into glass ain't a good idea.

Bill McCormick
82d Airborne, '86-'90, F/2/278 ACR now - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 22:12:24 (ZULU)

wr moore,

Weather for NC (Butner)for sunday will be...0700hrs, partly sunny, 37* F, at 1300 hrs, 60*F chance of rain, winds WSW at 3-6 mph. Info from weather Bug . com. sooooo..... it could close.

Steve S

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 23:43:32 (ZULU)

Bill,

Point taken. But we have done it before, to save American lives. Maybe we should consider doing it again, and let the world gasp at our response, and thereby shorten the conflict. Not by any means advocating nuclear weapons, just a show of force that truly does induce "Shock and Awe."

I understand everybody's aversion to "collateral damage," but Linda Gronlund was "collateral damage" in a field in Pennsylvania, and she was one of thousands.

Until neighbors of terrorists are themselves terrified of having the guy next door hosting bomb-making parties in his apartment, the killing of our troops will continue, I fear.

I truly wish I had "The Answer".........all I have is my opinions and thoughts. They are offered freely.

I'll drop this thread now. I think most of you know how I feel.

God preserve our troops.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 00:08:57 (ZULU)

CDC WROTE: "...In peace there's nothing so becomes a man

As modest stillness and humility:

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,

Then imitate the action of the tiger;

Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,

Disguise fair nature with hard-favored rage;

Then lend the eye a terrible aspect."

Shakespeare

I kinda prefer - "You gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie?"

Josey Wales

OR ...

"Can't stand rude behavior in a man. Won't tolerate it.

Woodrow F. Call

brian k. sain
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 00:31:06 (ZULU)

Gents,

A quick post...

On the Iraqi situation: Why is it most of us could see the current situation coming and the liberal side of the house couldn't? You can bet they'd support the president if he were a democrat. Now they are just using the situation to thier advantage. You can't tell me they didn't see it...

The public got spoiled with Desert Shield/Desert Storm. That was not a victory, IMHO. We just let the bad guys out the back door to regroup.

Based on what we've seen, we should have been a LOT tougher on our entry and occupation of Iraq. Identify and destroy the terrorists, their families, clans, and political groups. FIND the area the terrorists are from, and who supported them, and bomb it FLAT by conventional means. Make those supporting the terrorists so afraid that support will dry up. That means any of the countries that are supporting them in any way, shape, or form.

We are suffering what the Isreali's have for years. Perhaps, the attacks on other peace keeper's will get their countries involved.

Bush is right. We need to commit to this in the long run. I fear mainstream America is being fed false info by the liberal media. Unfortuneately, most Americans don't think farther than "me" and care less about the situation, unless affected.

After twin towers all of America should be behind the effort. That was a slap in the face we cannot and should not ignore.

You think the other side would hesitate to use nukes, if they could get them here? Think they can't? Then where did all these illegals come from?

I have it on good authority that it's already been tried, a while back, and the device was intercepted at the border.

Oops, went into the rant mode there. Bruce, it must be catching...

Pete, if I get an elk I'll fry up the liver and think of you whilest eating it! That 250 gr bullet should do the job...would be good for piggies, too.

Bring on the raffle. Heck, if the long barrel and brake offend you hack it off! Shoot the heck out of it and re-tube in a configuration you like!

All for now. "She who must be obeyed" is calling...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 01:05:33 (ZULU)

BKS: Sometime between "pull" and "whistle" I'd have put a round right through the bridge of Josie Wales' nose.

"If you're going to shoot, then shoot. Don't talk." Tuco the Rat from "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly"

Somebody asked if the "Quick Cuff" had any problems. Just one. The guy who makes them is dog ugly. Other than that they are the way to go for the heavy beasts the guys on this site shoot.

CDC'
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 01:59:13 (ZULU)

Thoughts on Iraq;

We're dealing with a society (the Arab world) who only respects fear. It's all they know. When someone is nice, he is considered a weak fool. In their society, barbarism is good.

The occupation of Germany and Japan was a bit different. Germany is a western civilization. Also, West Germany was afraid of falling to the USSR. Japan was a society where honor is everything. A guerilla war was not the way of the Samurai. They fought a very hard fight but when the emperor surrendered, that was it.

The people we're fooling with have no honor and don't even think logically. Someone with sense would say "The US has the ability to end ALL life on planet Earth!" These folks say "The US is evil but wussies! They'll never do enough harm to us!" We need to make them (the world) fear us.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 04:02:06 (ZULU)

Sinister

It was a real pleasure meeting you SIR! Wish I could have spent more time talking to you! You have alot of good ideas and I think you will do a great job! Drop me a line when you get a chance! Also keep us posted on the Sniper match at Benning!

Gooch, good to hear you are still around! Drop me a line when you get a chance!

Sarge, Glad everything is going well with your daugther!

SFC Pete Carpentier jr TXNG
CC, TX, - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 04:23:58 (ZULU)

CDC',

"The guy who makes them is dog ugly."

Make that 'One of the guys who makes them is dog ugly.' And I know that can't be me. Right Undude? ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 05:00:19 (ZULU)

Guy's, clear this up for me please.......

What is the difference in the Mil Std 1913 rail, and the Picatinny??.

I thought they were basically the same?.........

Will they accept the same style rings/bases?.

Thanks

Two Shoes

Terry
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 05:26:48 (ZULU)

Re: Badlands Fall Match

Thought I'd give a detailed briefing on the recent Match at Badlands last weekend. Took me the better part of a day to clean all the red Oklahoma mud from all my gear ;))))

There were seven events on Saturday and four or five on Sunday. Let me see if I can get this right:

Saturday:

At the classroom;

Briefing on Range Safety and the complete course of fire and scoring procedures. Thereafter it was off outside for the KIMS exercise.......

Kim's Game - 10 items placed on a table and viewed for 2 1/2 minutes. At some during the competition you will be asked to describe all 10 items. - what it appears to be, size, shape, color, usability. Had 2 minutes to write all this down.

At the Range:

Started by re-zeroing rifles and logging dope for the 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000 ranges. (Sidenote: I've heard of but personally do not know of any other ranges in this region that allows a shooter to shoot these distances from one single firing point. Not even even the Whittington Center has this capability. A Major plus for Badlands)

Target Detection: Don't remember the time frame here but you have to locate at least ten items that can be used by a human in the selected viewing area that went out to a distance of 300 yards. Identify what you think it is; shape, size, color and condition. There were a total of 15 items. Very tough and very well hidden.

Unknown distance targets and Range Estimation - A total of ten targets on a range varying from approximately 250 to 900+ yards of various sizes. Must plot a range estimation map and be within (+) or (-) a given distance.

Four UKD Firing Exercises. Shooter has a 1 1/2 min. to "mil" (as in mil-dot) five targets. Many targets partially exposed and some camouflaged. One shot allowed within 30 seconds, 2nd shot (if needed) allowed in 20 seconds and 3rd shot (if needed in ten seconds).

Hold-off exercise-Start at the 200 yard line with the clock ticking and must engage every target with one hit at every range at 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards. Each target at each range has to be hit before proceeding to the next and clock stops at the 600 yard target.

Sunday;

KIMS test. (would've helped if I had known shorthand on this one ;)))

At the Range:

Started off by ranging 5 targets @ UKD. Retain the records for firing at this range for the last event of the day.

Cold Bore Shot. One shot at the 500 yard silhouette. I believe the target was 20" X 20".

Hold Off Exercise. Same as previous Holdoff but targets engaged were: 400, 500, 600, 700 and 800 yds.

Moving Targets: Range of 300 yards shooting at a target of roughly 6" x 6" held on a long pole and held in the middle of a window frame for 5 seconds for each shot. Five shots on this stage.

Positional Shooting. 5 rounds fired at a distance (approx) of 350 yards. One minute allowed for the five shots starting with (1)standing, (2)kneeling and then (2)sitting.

Back to the first range where we had ranged (or "mil"ed) the UKD targets earlier...and fired for score.

After each event, there was an after action review to explain further what we had done and the conditons we were shooting... in case anybody had missed something and any questions answered pertaining to that stage. This turned out to be a Match and a class. That was very helpful.

Conclusion:

This was a great event and opportunity for yours truly to put into effect some of the things that we had covered in our Basic class @ Badlands last Sept. In my case, although I performed like I had my head up my a**, all my goals were achieved in locating my weak points (which were many), reaffirm what I had already learned, analyze my equip. and basically critique myself in all areas. For that it was a great success and kudos to Bobby, Steve and Chuck for putting on a superb and challenging Match.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 06:03:24 (ZULU)

Bruce R.

Incoming...

Mr. Moore,

Did you send an email about a Bergen?

Marc Palmer
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 07:40:30 (ZULU)

MarcPalmer, is everything ok your end buddy, both Jon b and I where wondering if all was ok? can i send you your L9 bits?

Wes, get me an elk ok.

Much wisdom writen over the last few hours on this site, so why the hell ain't the members of this board running the show and get these panzified PC politicians out of the way.

Iraq will become another Northern Ireland, just bigger. Pull all foriegn aid from countries who don't support us, ascrew this PC shit.

The soldier who killed the mortarcrew with the jamming M16 in an atempt to steal a truck, why isn't he bieng made into the nations hero? because it aint PC to kill people, a hero today is some one who saves lives ( but not by taking others) or suffers hardship. Lynch should grab all the benefits she can from the media attention, because, going on personal experience, she can expect little support from the veterans agency when she leaves the service. same goes for the others who where with her,if they all write books and make some dough then good on em, the one thing they should remember though is honour to thier "brothers in arms" don't let your mates down, either before during or after.

Bill,i emailed you of this site with my new email addy at home,

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 08:19:56 (ZULU)

Pete/Jon,

Thanks! Bit of a mix-up, German Catch-22, Surgery was delayed after the sedative was given!!!!!!! Now scheduled for next Wednesday, should have all bases covered this time.

Yes, by all means send the little blyters.

Brownells order must go by Tuesday, get me order numbers.

Also must go to U.S. in Dec for a couple of days, anything light weight needed? Heavy weight would require mailing if thats ok.

You can reach me on my handy.

Marc Palmer
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 11:29:45 (ZULU)

Just to add a bit to what Mark wrote about the Badlands match:

No laser rangefinders were used in this match - all target estimation was done using mildots. The tolerance on the range estimation exercise was plus or minus 5 percent. That's pretty tight. On the unknown distance exercises, a target was designated, then all shooters were given 2 minutes 30 seconds to range the target, set their scope, and load their rifle. Then they had to lower their eyes - no more ranging - and we shot at the targets one at a time in rotation determined by the range officer. And not all those target were easy even to see, especially in the rain and fog - some were camouflaged.

The positional shooting stage was shot at a half-silhouette target of 20X20 inches about 360 yards away. Sounds easy. Wasn't. I missed all five shots.

In anticipation of a holdoff stage, I made a card with the mildot holdoffs for my load out to a thousand yards, with one column assuming a 300 yard zero, and another assuming a 600 yard zero. Worked great, as long as I remembered to hold in the correct direction...

Bobby and staff put on a great match, and you'll come away knowing that you've been challenged. It was great to put faces with some of the names I've seen online. There was some really outstanding shooting done at that match, though little of it was mine.It was great fun, and I came away with a long list of things to practice.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 13:33:30 (ZULU)

Lisa ran across a news item. A Russian Orthodox priest recently married a gay couple. The church responded with a pretty clear statement of policy about the subject of gay marriage: the priest was defrocked, his church was bulldozed and then the rubble was burned. As one commentator noted, "There's a REASON they call it the Russian ORTHODOX church". Yeah...

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 13:50:41 (ZULU)

Lindy,

It was good to have met you sir.

Congratulations to Wade Stuterville who turned in an outstanding performance with a score of 952 at the Badlands FALL Match. I also noticed that his score of 98/100 on the KIMS test was (in my opinion) incredible. His Dad and brother were also competing as well.

The experience for me was invaluable as some of the things that I had learned in the Basic class didn't click until this Match.

It was challenging and got to meet a great bunch of shooters. <<The catfish at the Seniors Center was pretty good too>>

Good time all the way around.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 14:38:17 (ZULU)

Quick question,

Does anyone know the correct wear of the German SCHUTZENSCHNUR?

I need it for my class A's and can't get usapa downloaded on my home computer. Sad part is I qualified gold in February and after the deployment just now received it and need the "proper" attachment.

Can't get the Mildot Master dialed in and the local command is at a loss with a new COC.

Thanks All,

Adam

Adam G. Scott
Netherlands - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 14:48:31 (ZULU)

Two Shoes, the former is a more narrow rail than the picatinny, I believe.

Robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 15:11:58 (ZULU)

I'm not an 'operator' nor wannabe, but Michael posted:

>>>I have been reading this site and shooting with quite a number of the regular posters for over the past four years, but I don't ever recall reading a post from Chandler. I am not knocking the guy or his products, as I understand that they are both top notch, but aren't raffles about funding worthwhile causes and recognizing regular contributors?<<<

I'm ALL for the riffle raffle, but Michael has a point.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 15:13:14 (ZULU)

Pete,

Email back atcha mate.

Marc,

Affirmative- looking for S2 on Brit Bergans.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill Moore
Rnke, VA, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 15:46:11 (ZULU)

Two Shoes - "Mil Std 1913 rail, and the Picatinny?"

Try the info here and see if it helps:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/picatinny/

You can click on my name instead of copy and paste if you like and get there quicker.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 16:39:28 (ZULU)

Okay - I think this needs to be taken care of pretty quick..

1. I sense an underlying tone of resentment of among several of ya.... take it up with me off line.

2. Site supporters - not all these folks that you deal with are posters. Either they are working and/or simply choose not to hang out here. Does that mean they are not supporters of the community? Not hardly.

3. Let's see - names commonly known in the community: Winchester,

Remington, Leupold, Storm Mountain, Kent Gooch, Rod Ryan, Norm Chandler Sr/Jr, Black Hills ammo, George Gardner, Mike Miller.... and the list goes on. Now of these some have posted, some used to and dont any more, some were quite active and have faded to an occasional visit. Does this make them non supporters - NO! it does not. These guys all work for a living. The ones that do post regulary - thanks for taking the extra time. We'll understand if your duties take precedence to posting in a public forum....

4. What does the proposed raffle support. The first priority of the raffle $$ always pays the gunbuilder, plus pay for the transfer to the recipient's ffl holder (reasonable fee that is). It also pays my web developer for putting the raffle site together (usually 200 to 300 dollars). And the last of course goes to the named campaign (ie navy relief, etc).

5. The particular raffle being proposed - has both a Gardner Rock Rifle - known as SCLE #2 - this should be highly collectable, and the Chandler Super Sniper rifle. The ticket pool will be set at 500, the $$ for this go straight to the SniperCountry staff - to be used for matches, etc - whatever SCOTT, SARGE, MARIUS, AND PETE deem appropriate.

6. Most of you that know me - know that I work for Chandler part time. Does that blind side me with regard to the contributions to this site? No. I enjoy the work and love the education that I am getting. Those of you that know me also know that I am fair.

You should also know that I would never intentionally mistreat anyone out there. Now in the case of Mike Miller -he needs constant mistreatment to keep him in line :)

Do I get any $$ for the sale of that Chandler rifle - or the Gardner rifle to the raffle effort? No. I don't want any either - that would poision me as the raffle operator.

I know that a person could argue - "Well you work for Chandler" or "This is about the 4th or 5th Gardner rifle you have raffled, surely George is giving you some kick back for that" Well - guess what - there isnt any kickback and there cant ever be any.... the reasons are obvious.

They are both outstanding Sniper weapons systems and I am proud to sponsor their entry into the raffles.

7. Speaking of raffles and operators - anyone out there can do a raffle - all you need is concurrence from the SC staff: PETE, SCOTT, SARGE, MARIUS.

8. Last but not least - the way I do business, conduct myself, etc is the way that I think is best - derived from what my peanut powered brain can derive from those wiser than I and the good Lord himself.

If you think I am wrong - then convince me that I am wrong and we will go from there.... that's about as fair as I can get.

As always - prayers for the troops and our Great nation

Take care all

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 16:42:44 (ZULU)

Ken,

Email inbound to you via SC's link

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 17:31:19 (ZULU)

Folks,

There are a lot of folks that don't post here, but support the site and the sniper community.

Probably half of the contributors to "Goodies for the Grunts" are lurkers.

The President of a major ammo company (won't name him, but I bet a few of you know him) went in with me to provide 4000 rounds of 9mm to a NG training program that had run out a third of the way through the year. He doesn't post, either.

George builds one helluva rifle. So do the Chandlers (got #217).

And Ken is a man that I am proud to call a friend. I would trust him with my wallet and my wife. I can say the same about Undude, and a very few others.

Ken will conduct this raffle as he has conducted every previous one, with no bias and no personal gain, and honorably, as he conducts his life.

Those of you who know me know that I have one priceless possession....my name. And I am happy to put it on the line to state that Ken is the best guy you could ask for to do a raffle.

So let's put this to bed, and get the raffle going.

And if I win it, blame Sandy's 5 year-old daughter, who will draw the ticket!

And to Jim in AL:

Thanks for the check! But you WILL get another Thank You card from the Child Bride.........her Momma raised her right, and she ain't gonna scrimp on a 37-cent stamp!

Good News!

Army paid me. Voucher noted that the payment of 13 Nov., on an invoice dated 10 July with terms of 30 days net, was "Days Late: 0"

The math skills exhibited in that voucher are apparently why they buy the Mildot Master.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 17:51:52 (ZULU)

Bill, the point of my last post vis a vis the local (arab) press was I made no point...the subtelty of the remarks is telling--at least to folks such as yourself--and THAT was the whole point of pointing it out...errr, sumptin like that....

Any noise from Washington or in our press on "pulling out" emboldens those who actually expected that from us. Screw the rest of the debate---we shoulda learned this BS already---but nobody is holding any one accountable on this. The BGs can now take heart, screw on their resolve, and our Troops continue to die. Convince enough that we are serious; and the "faint of hearts" will stop supporting the hard-corps terrs--and we can get on with making something out of this shithole. As long as we give them reason to fight--fight they will. All they need to do is send us home to win by default. The Ba'athists have all the damn firepower---and roarin' back they will come. Then what? Think we'd get a third chance at this thing? And I'd bet a months pay that someone in this region knows where the WMDs are; you know, the WMDs that didn't exist while Kurds and Iranians died from their non-existant effects???? Duh-farkin-harrrrr.

I also believe that the US is overdue for another round with the elephant---and an important date in our history looms. It would be a colossal mistake to hit the homeland now or in the near term; although the deep held belief of these knuckle heads is that we will cave with "our glass jaw in fragments." Ironically, the opposite would be true. If they do pull one off, the will of the US will bring many of the "we oughtas" to pass. Equally ironically---the more effectively this administration deals with the threat, the more public opinion drifts away. Can't prove the proverbial negative. BTW--this is just a feeling Joe has---not intel. I only know what I need to know regarding my ass (local stuff)! Conjecture on homeland threats is just me gauging the threat against open source study. Disclaimer for the lurking survivalists: I ain't no better informed than you are! Correction, I am--tis why I never bothered building a bunker....

Rant rant rant done.

Now, someone asked a smoke-pole question and we ignored him. Someone answer the guy so I can learn sumptin' too!

In-Sain: How's the book coming? I'm adding it to my shelf once you get it on the market. In fact, once you wrap it up, oughta let us know who you are soliciting for publishing. Then we can all bombard them with pre-orders! May sway the corporate decision....eh? Hell, I'd order 20 copies---and toss them around for presents. My friends don't do sweaters, fruitcakes or neck ties...heheh.

You all know my morale is soaring; youze hear me bitchin' bout stuff. Funny, it used to be tactics, now it's strategy. I must be old.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 18:31:47 (ZULU)

Joe: Company-grade officers study tactics. Field-grades study strategy. Flag-grade officers study logistics - and you're already in that business, so you're thinking like a general! It'd be nice if they'd promote you - some common sense at that level might well go a long way.

The terrorists underestimate America. Another terrorist strike would likely get the whole country into a "Kill them all - let Allah sort 'em out" mood. But, if they were smart, they be in a different line of work.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 18:53:32 (ZULU)

Mule,

Get the Loopy LR M3 3.5-10X. That scope kicks ass. I got one with my GA Precision SC rifle and just love it. I feel like this is just the perfect package here. An M40A1 clone with that scope will do alot. It's my first custom rifle and I don't have any experience with the other McMillan stocks but I think I can do it all with this one. It might not be the perfect F-class rig but I don't care. I hunt pigs, ground squirrels, jackrabbits and coyotes with it. Lately I've been shooting it in the 200 yard metallic silhouette match at a local club (that game is fun). I have to let go of it for a little while to get the mildots from Premier Reticle and then I'll try the 1K match at Sacramento. You won't go wrong with that scope. No matter how many other ones you get later you'll always like this one.

Marc

Marc
CV , CA, - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 19:59:20 (ZULU)

JOE M:

Hey bud, I got too many irons in the fire. Writing full time for Police Marksman, American Sniper Assoc. projects, SWAT, case load (domestic violence), kids, wife, ex-wife, remodeling the house ... hell you know how it is. Not complaining, just damn busy.

I didn't get a book deal or anything like that. I decided to research/write it on my own dime and in my own sweet time and then see who wants to print it the most.

All the calls, interviews, travel, etc. are coming outta my pocket ... right there with the house note, child support and braces. lol

Pretty cocky of me I guess but ... wtf.

Stay safe Sir,

brian k. sain
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 21:02:56 (ZULU)

Ken

Some people accuse or insinuate wrong doing because it is within thier nature to do or they consider doing the things they beleive other people will do or are doing.

Used to work for a LE "COP" (Chief of Police) that did the same thing to us (patrol officers).

Say "nay" to the doom sayers and continue forward walking the walk and fighting the good fight.(cliche abound.

You have plenty of support here

Semper Fi

Bomac

bomac
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 21:54:02 (ZULU)

Third post; mostly lurk.

Ken,

Thank you for running the raffle. I will be happy to participate.

To everyone else,

There isn't a week goes by that I don't see, "Riffle Raffle." posted on this forum. Yet, when Ken steps up and runs a raffle, there's a bunch of flack thrown his way for the manner in which he conducts it. You know what they say about opinions. If you don't like the raffle, don't participate. Give people like me a better shot at not winning. I never win anything:)!

Smelly Dog Pat in rainy South City

Blackdog
S. San Franc isco, CA, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 21:55:28 (ZULU)

Scott Kangas,

On muzzleloaders, first need to find out if you must stay with a traditional sidelock, or can use the modern in-line where you are at. If you can use the in-line, I have experience with Thompson/Center, either the Black Diamond XR, or the Omega would fit what you need just fine I think. I would stay with 50 cal. I have a T/C Thunderhawk (not made anymore) it will shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with open sights. Either of the two above will do the same or better. If you can use a scope, I have heard that these will shoot sub moa. I have heard that the Knight rifles will do as well too but I have no personal experience with them. If you must use a traditional style, go with either the Thompson/Center Hawken, or the Lyman Great Plains Rifle again in 50 cal. The custom barreled T/C Hawken that I used for competition shot 1 to 1-1/4 inch groups with patched round ball and open sights, that is if I did my part. The factory rifles won't shoot quite that well but should easily shoot around 1-1/2 to 2 inches at 100. If I can help in any other way post a question or hit me off-line.

Ken Hunter,

Run the raffle the way you want to, there is no question here about your fair, unbiased participation.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 22:08:35 (ZULU)

Aw hell, Ken we all trust your judgement. Get it on. Jus a little wonderment from trooper Mike as to why, not knowin your gonna have 2 rifles. holy hell, what are we wait for? I'm an old man and times a wastin. Anybody with doubts.. know that a Chandler is a hell of a sniper rifle. My Laud, I'd love to have either one of those beauties. Don't give me a choice cause I'd have hell makin it.

Brogers
Friday, November 14, 2003, at 22:14:28 (ZULU)

Rob Opp -

Many thanks for the guidance and suggestions. Inline is legal here. For me, the preferred way to go. They just vary from $150 up to more than I want to spend so I was lost in the quagmire.

Brian (In)Sane -

Bought the book you recommended a month or 2 ago. Good read but I'm not doing that type of activity. Donated to the local PD SWAT commander. He is making his guys read it.

Stay well all!

Scott Kangas
Davenport, Iowa, USofA - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 22:40:19 (ZULU)

First off Ken Hunter is a great and honest guy. Anyone to say otherwise gets my boot so far up their small hole it will be pushing teeth out the pie hole from the rear.

My comments where mostly in fun. I prefer to see Georges rifle on here or anywhere else, to Chandlers any day. Norm Sr. is a great man, but has not been apart of SC. George is a great man and a friend oF SC

With all that said I will support any raffle Ken puts on, but hope to win a GA Precision rifle.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
ca, - Friday, November 14, 2003, at 23:09:56 (ZULU)

I'm ready to donate my normal cash for 4 ticks. Bring the riffle raffle on. When I win the Chandler, I'll just hacksaw that brake off and shoot a short stick. Getting like YoteBait, too old to wait for stuff, let's do it and get it over with.

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 00:48:23 (ZULU)

All:

Thanks to the generous contributions from Jim in NM and Barry in AZ, fund now stands at $111.82. A few more checks and we hit Wally World, to pad out the box of Cope and Skoal already purchased.

Child Bride is already playing the Christmas CD by Alabama in the next room. Just serves to remind me how blessed I am.

From the bottom of my heart, thank you for what you are doing for our men and women who will not be with their loved ones this Christmas.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 01:14:42 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter:

You do the raffle any way you see fit. I'm convinced that it will be an honest shake any way it's done. I don't see anyone getting rich off of the raffle proceeds. This site and the information that it represents are worth an occasional "donation" from me. It's getting about time I won me a new rifle, though!

I'm in for x tickets, where x >1!

Mike

BMG Mike
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:22:38 (ZULU)

Thanks for the support notes gents.

Okay - here's the first announcement for the Raffle.

THE SNIPERCOUNTRY 500 - IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER. WHAT'S THAT? ITS A RAFFLE LIKE ALL THE REST THAT WE'VE RUN.

WHY'S IT CALL THE SNIPERCOUNTRY 500? WELL HERE'S HOW IT WILL WORK

1. TICKET COUNT IS SET AT 500. WHEN WE HIT 500 TICKETS SOLD -THE DOOR CLOSES. WE LIMIT THE TICKET POOL SIZE SO THAT ALL HAVE A REASONABLE CHANCE AT THESE RIFLES. WINNER PICKS THE RIFLE THEY WANT. THE RUNNER UP GETS THE REMAINING RIFLE.

2. NOW - WHAT'S UP FOR GRABS? NOT ONE - BUT TWO! RIFLES. THAT'S RIGHT. WE HAVE THE G.A. PRECISION ROCK RIFLE, SNIPER COUNTRY LIMITED EDITION SERIAL NUMBER 2.... VERY COLLECTABLE. ALSO - WE HAVE THE CHANDLER SUPER GRADE SNIPER RIFLE.

3. THE PLAN IS TO TURN THIS RAFFLE ON NEXT WEEKEND. I HAVE TO GET THE PICTURES OF THE RIFFLES FROM BOTH CHANDLER AND GARDNER. SO THEY CAN BE EMBEDDED INTO THE RAFFLE SITE.

4. WHO'S IT HELPING? THE FUNDS THAT ARE GENERATED BY THIS RAFFLE OF COURSE PAY FOR THE RIFLES. THE REMAINING FUNDS - GO TO THE OPERATION OF SNIPERCOUNTRY. SARGE, PETE, SCOTT, MARIUS WILL DECIDE HOW TO USE THESE FUNDS (MATCHES, PRIZES, ETC).

5. THE PHASES OF THE RAFFLE WILL RUN AS DONE BEFORE

A. register for tickets. ticket numbers issued at registration time. registration stops when we hit 500.

B. Once registration is closed - we call for payments. that means get those payments in.

C. once all payments are in - we have the drawing.

D. I get to have the best fun - I get to call the winners and tell them that they won...

I will post more as we get near.

Dont panic - just check the roster at least once per day.... I willl maek sure you see my announcement...

thats all for now....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:34:24 (ZULU)

Since there were only 2 posts concerning the 'lack of presence' by the Chandlers and the last one was mine, either I misstated it or it was mistaken.

If I have in any way represented that I mis-trusted Ken Hunter, then I BEG his forgiveness!

In the 4 or 5 years I have lurked and ocassionally posted, I have never doubted Ken and I am usually one of the many hollerin' fer a riffle-raffle. I always contribute, not much, but I do. I was/am under the impression that the raffles are held to support the site and operators of the site. Naturally, I assumed the raffle items were bought from those who also support the 'site,' not just the craft.

I know nothing about the Chandlers except that I don't have one of their riffles and would love to win one. I have an SCLE and have NO objections about having two.

Again, if I have insulted or insinuated wrong doing by ANYBODY on this site or connected to/with this site, I deeply appologize. Bring on the Riffle Raffle!

Larry J. Porter

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A!!!!!!!!!!!! - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 03:37:38 (ZULU)

Ken, I think that I was chiming in with the same perspective as Larry. I actually didn't know that you work part time for Chandler. Thanks for your post though, you bring up good points and I understand quite a bit better.

I have never questioned your ethics, you have always been a 100% stand up guy that is straight forward, honest and candid. I have always also participated in the raffles, and will continue to do so even though I haven't won yet! I would be delighted to win either one of the rifles, and I appreciate all of your hard work on the site.

Thanks for the additional info, and I am loooking forward to the Raffle!!! (I would like to win this time though!)

Michael
CA, - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 04:13:15 (ZULU)

2 super rifles; woody woody woody! At's OK Larry if you win em both I'll accept your donation!

Brogers
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 04:15:16 (ZULU)

Larry,

I certainly hope that you took no offence at MY post. I just wanted to clear the air about folks who don't post, but certainly support this brotherhood. Also to do a pre-emptive strike against any questions about Ken. I had no problem with questions arising, just wanted to get my two cents in immediately.

No way would I direct anything against you, man.......there's too many folks in the sandbox that got clean heinies, chaw and jerky as a result of your generosity.

And, yes, I have a Chandler. If I win, I will get George's rifle, for variety's sake, as long as I can get it with a 20" barrel. But I need another rifle like I need a second a**hole. Don't have time to shoot the ones I have now.

Pat:

Please hit me off-Roster with the details of our LTC friend. Hadn't heard.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 04:29:38 (ZULU)

Bruce, Dad I have told you many times send them guns to your son in California so they can be loved and shot. LOL

On a serious note you are one of the few men I hold as high as Ken Hunter. Well actually you are easier to hold high because you are smaller.

Think I will buy two tickets and win both rifles. The way Ken keeps beating my ass over the Chandler I guess I would take one. Just please dont ship it with a leather sling. LMAO

Switching gears. Waiting for approval from insurance co to have nerve damage surgery. Seems you guys knew I did not have any feeling but doctor says it can be corrected.. I will be without any use of left arm for two months and then it will be long recovery. I better be nice to other half or my love life is done. On another thought my only shooting for awhile will be BR and my god that is crap.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 05:11:00 (ZULU)

Ken, Sarge and company: Type-A personalities thw world over have a common trait: We bitch about anything and everything---until something happens that really sucks--then we get down to it with serious attitudes. Same thing here; we find out out we're gonna have a riffle raffle and we smile ear to ear. Of course, without conflict to keep us sharp; we conjour some up. Hell, I have soldiers bitching about air conditioning in August over here. Said it was too cold. And a camp of 5000 complained, same month, that they had too much ice. Don't take it wrong when the bitching starts...bitching is how I know all is well. It's the stoney silence that scares me...

Someone is right this minute bitchin' about the French word I just used :))

I made a strong case for a new scooter to the wife (last one got sold for legal fees for custody of the boy---well spent cash)...when she shoots that in the ass, plan B is a custom riffle. I think I got her on the ropes. I like 300 WM, but don't know much about the WSM to rule it in or out.

Bruce: Although I will play the raffle---I sure hope you win first prize. I'll be satisfied as runner up. This is a no-lose raffle either way.

Brian: I read something a while back with your name associated with it. I am going crazy trying to find it again. I was busy at the time, and made a mental note to re-read the article. I lost the mental note. Musta gone with the rest of my mind...

No new boxes yet. I haven't had time to find out what is going on; but mail has slowed since I've returned. What happened? Maybe airflow slowed. The leave program is jamming KCIA (small field). Curiosity takes a back seat to mission, though.

I sure miss Lito and Rick around here! Anyone know what they're doing these days?

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 08:44:56 (ZULU)

Good morning Hawgs, been real busy but I did see Sinister Dave is back. Welcome back sir!

Sarge, sorry to read about your daughter and glad she is on the road to recovery. Will be praying for you and yours.

Mike, same goes for you. I had a thoracotomy back in 1989 and I don't envy anyone who has to deal with doctors and hospitals. Maybe you can practice your one-handed pistol shooting.

I sure should!

:-P

Joe, your intel seems to be on this time....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103157,00.html

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=NU0R1PUOUKNIWCRBAE0CFFA?type=topNews&storyID=3827796

Watch six dude.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 14:12:56 (ZULU)

My post has been up for five minutes and I get the first email from a gentleman in Africa who needs me to recieve his Millions! (shakes head in amazement)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 14:30:03 (ZULU)

Geoff: send me an email so we can re-establish comms. New computer, my old harddrive ate the lot of my data as a last act of spite. I backed up all the important shit--like work, but screwed the pooch with my personal folders. Most all died with the drive. Thank God I burned a CD of my pics!!!!

You can include your bank account info too? Why should the Nigerians have all the fun???? :))))

Last--wondered where you been...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 16:08:39 (ZULU)

"I hope I am wrong in saying this but you sound like one of those guys that shoots better groups at the bar talking to friends than you do at the range. Most of what I read on the sniper co. page is humorous to say the least , I bought a M77 MkII in 300 Win Mag , and with Federal premium 200gr gameking`s cut bullet holes at 100 yds .I`m a hunter not a sniper,but I admit the triggers in factory rifles need work but out to 500 yds with my Ruger or my 111 savage also in 300 win ,what I shoot at hits the ground . I shoot on a reg basis with law enforcement ,military, and those that think they want to be merc. and the common factor is most of the time it`s not the gun its the hands holding it."

I got this e-mail today from a fan. Don't ya, just love the fame and fortune you get by being on here in this killing ground they call Sniper Country Duty Roster. I'll not mention this guys name out of respect for the many others who have e-mailed me with opinion, legitimate argument and for help with something. If there's anything that sounds like Bar Bragging in my posts just have another cold one and go on about your business folks. Come by some time and we can go out to the range for a while if your really interested.

Brogers
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 16:31:53 (ZULU)

JOE M: Ain't no tellin' bud. If you heard it from a woman though ... wasn't there, didn't do it.

SCOTT KANAGAS: Hey man that was probably the best thing you could do. Most chiefs have long since forgotten how to be cops. You might open some eyes by giving the book away. Still don't know why I love what I do so much ...

KEN H: Please send Norm (Jr./Sr.) my regards. They build a fine rifle.

brian k. sain
Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 17:11:33 (ZULU)

Joe,

I hope I win first prize, too! But I won't get to keep it if I do......

Child Bride likes my Chandler (generally outshoots me with it), and has informed me that she wouldn't mind having one of her own. But she's leaning towards George's rifle, if he will present it personally. Says he's pretty easy on the eyes.

You got some competition, Brian!

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 17:15:27 (ZULU)

HOG'S,

Greetings and Salutations, it has been a long time since I have been here.

Sarge, glad to hear the good progress news, I have been praying.

Marius, Thank you, and I hope you did well on your exams.

All, I hope everybody is well, and aspiring.

Question: If anybody out there has a "Blue Book of Gun Values", and is willing to answer a few question, I am in the need of a little help. Assistance would be greatly appreciated, and rewarded. Hit me with an email, and then we can coordinate. This is rather urgent on my end.

Ken, on the rifle raffle, count me in, and if you would please, also hit me with an email, as I have an idea that I would like to bounce off you, and you may like it.

The respect and dignity on this site, is second to none, and I for one have no qualms with a handshake deal, or a "my word is my bond" agreement with anyone here. Thank you all.

Out.

Sean
Brandon, Mb., Canada - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 20:27:10 (ZULU)

Hello!, I have a Savage 110FP .308 Cal. that I bought as a base to start building an accurate rifle from. I have had the rifle for a couple of years, just never got around to doing anything to it. I would like to start building now, but I am wondering what things others have encountered in tuning/building this rifle. Thanks, Vic Graham

Vic Graham
Whispering Pines, NC, USA - Saturday, November 15, 2003, at 22:10:21 (ZULU)

Has anyone out there ever measured the Headspace Datum Line on a .300WM case using the Redding Comparator? I know the case manufacturing parameter is using the belt. These new Win cases are

minus.015" to minus.018" less than SAAMI minimum headspace specs for the .300WM. So where am I going with this? Are the US Military Sniping Units making special chambers for these cases or using once fired? When I once fire and measure, the cases measure approx. .000" to plus .002". Plus .002' is the longest I can size to for the cases to chamber and extract in my Rem .300WM Sendero under normal presures.

Gary
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 01:35:38 (ZULU)

To those of you that RETAIN the ability to turn the TV channel, radio channel or skip a post or two on this roster, please skip this post.

To those that are reading this...

PLEASE. Shut up and leave Mr Rogers completely alone.

I like the guy, and my judgement is better than yours.

medicjim
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 01:38:53 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Norm Chandler, Jr. here. I have been reading the Duty Roster with interest over the last day or so and I felt I needed to chime in. Even though I am not an active participant on the Sniper Country Duty Roster, I monitor the comments and concerns on a regular basis. I have chosen not to comment in order to stay neutral and to stay out of any issues of opinion or professional disagreements. As many of you know, my dad, Norm Chandler Sr. and Carlos Hathcock were two of the earliest pioneers and champions of legitimate snipers. From Marine Corps sniping tactics and procedures, development of sniping doctrine to implementation of civilian law enforcement sniping methods, the Chandler name and expertise has always been on the forefront of our community. I have grown into this lifestyle and truly wish to support the entire community. In short, the art and science of sniping is our life and it is what we wish to do.

A while back, Ken Hunter asked me if I would consider putting a Chandler rifle up for raffle on Sniper Country. The first thing I asked Ken was where would the money go. He said the funds would go to support Sniper Country operations and my dad and I thought that would be a great opportunity to give some behind-the-scenes support to the sniper community. There was no ulterior motive or effort to cause any strife in the brotherhood, nor was this an effort for us to endorse Sniper Country over any other web sites or other sniper organizations.

Even though we do not play an active part on Sniper Country, I would like to point out an example of another way we have helped the community, specifically Sniper Country. Due to our reputation as experts on sniping, we were in hourly consultation with the press (CNN and MSNBC) during the beltway sniper debacle. We constantly defended the professional sniper community, including Sniper Country, against left-wing media attacks. Without getting into the details, we feel we were very successful in our efforts to fend off these reports biased toward gun control and aimed at further losses to our Second Amendment rights. We constantly strive to improve the quality of our classes and have earned a reputation of producing one of the finest sniping rifles in the world. We hope the Chandler rifle is won by a young marksman full of potential and dedicated to the discipline and responsibility that comes with owning such an instrument. In fact, we are very quiet about any assistance we offer, preferring to keep our actions, our relationships and especially our personal comments at a discreet and professional level. Isn’t that the mark of a true sniper?

Regards,

Norm Chandler Jr.

Iron Brigade Armory

Norm Chandler Jr
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 02:03:28 (ZULU)

Well said, Mr. Chandler! You're welcome here, and thanks from this old Marine for your support! I've fired a Chandler rifle, owned by a friend of mine, and I'd be pleased to win one in the raffle.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 02:52:17 (ZULU)

From someone who doesn't contribute, or for that matter post much:

Anyone wanting to pick on Bill Rogers should instead e-mail me. I'll be more than happy to tell you why you're wrong and save the bandwidth of this board.

Bill, one of these days, we'll both do some bar bragging. Same bar, same time.

Mike, I really hope things go well with that surgery. Mine came back without surgery, but you're correct in your estimate of time. Think years. The real question is, what will you do with feelings? Seems like you've done pretty well without them up until now, and I kind of like you without them.

Why Ken and Bill get on Mike? Because it's fun. I don't suggest it for everyone though.

What Bruce said. He's the man, and if he says it, it's right.

Ken: "I sense an underlying tone of resentment of among several of ya.... take it up with me off line." I'll do it here thanks. Yes, resentment. First off, you forget what my phone number is, or possibly how to dial it, and then when I call that other dude and get a busy signal, I know it's you tying up the line. I cut you slack though, your little girl doesn't sound little at all anymore, so you must be getting old and crotchety. Best wishes to you and yours.

Jaeger
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 03:35:42 (ZULU)

Savage tuning;

There are a few tricks and alterations that can be done in building a 10FP into a nice rifle. Here's a few to look at....

Trigger replacement is paramount (unless it's an AccuTrigger) since this is the most notable problem. There are some available: Rifle Basix, Sharpshooter Supply, Timney to name a few.

The injection molded (Rubbermaid) plastic stock is another place to look at. It can be made to shoot pretty well by bedding. Trimming the mold lines off the outside makes it a little more comfortable. It's just not rigid enough, especially with a bipod. Whatever you get, make sure it's rigid. I wouldn't replace the stock until I done everything else. You may need to get longer or shorter action screws if you change the stock.

You need good scope rings and bases. When I built mine for shooting long range (over 600 yards), I installed a 20moa base. The only one I could get is a Farrell and I went ahead and used Farrell rings too. The Farrell base has to be bedded. The rings are quite nice. I have been pleased with the Farrell set up.

There's not much that really needs to be done to the Savage. The basics that apply to building any other rifle apply to the Savage. There's just not as many goodies available.

Heck, I love mine!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 04:00:51 (ZULU)

Norm; Snipers operate best from the tall grass. Understood by most of us. I figure there's no way to loose on this deal for we who lurk here. IF I win; break it too me slowly Ken. Give me time for the nitro to take affect.

Thanks Jim; you the man as always. Made piece with my temporary antagonist hopefully he understands the true nature of some of my comments and critiques.

Folks who read; please be advised that there are many rifles and scopes and other gear. In very few cases there is nothing to critique. We may be a little rough on certain things or it may appear that way. Most comments here are based on experiences both good and bad. The accuracy of our reports and critique may be arguable but our intentions to guide you to the best equipment and procedures we know how should not be in question. I've always answered every question in a heartfelt manner whether it be agreeable, accurate, or complete fiction is up to you to interpret but there is no intentional deception. I shoot the same mirage and read the same shifting winds that you do. If it sounds like a boast it might be just plain fact, or wishful thinking but it's accurate as I can make it.

Vic; if you caught my post of a few days ago, I shot one of the late Savage rifles 10fp with accutrigger. You may just want to shoot it as is. There just isn't a hell of a lot to do to this rifle. Does yours have the Accutrigger or the intermediate I believe they called it a marksman or something like that. I've shot it too and it works well but isn't as versitile as the accutrigger. Some people change the stock but I'm not seeing anyone improve their accuracy greatly. Other stocks usually the Choate seem to fit more people's idea of a Sniper stock but the factory stock shot one hole groups. We have not tested this rifle beyond 100 yards as of yet. But in a couple of weeks. Lord Willing and the wind don't rise, I will tell you what it does at 500 to 1k yards. I have not tried one of the McMillian stocks but it looks fine and it's quite pricey. Savage is coming on strong. Real Strong.

Gary; the belted magnum is one of those cartridges that really does need to be once fired. (that's just my opinion) One of the advantages of the .300 Win mag is that it does not have to be chambered to accomidate round nose bullets or at least I've never encountered a 300 that is overly long. My .308 is almost free bore with a factory barrel. I don't know why it shoots as good as it does but it does quite a bit better with once fired and long seated bullets. One of the easiest things and I suspect often overlooked advantages of "custom" rifles is the fact that they are chambered to proper specifications. This has about as much to do with their improved performance as the expensive rifling they use. IF you were to cut your factory .308 off and rechamber it.... You would be amazed at the improvement. Lawyers and round nose bullets have screwed up the .308 factory barrels in a lot of guns.

Which brings us to the .300 WSM or .308 fatboy. Here we get the best of both worlds. Like Goldilocks' soup. Not to long and not too short. Not to hot and not too cold. Not a 30-06 but not a .300 belted powder hog either. Just some observations. I'm not advocating the .300 WSM or .300 SAUM yet to replace the other two but it's very suspicious that this thing is gonna work. I might say that there are some who think the fatboys are just a gimmick. Some of em may be. I don't get the .243WSM except it falls in there. The .223 fatboy is a wonderment. Sorry guys. Long post. standing by.

Brogers
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 04:01:39 (ZULU)

Sheesh, I'm gone for 2 days and some of you didn't want to play nice! OK MY 2 cents - and since I'm one of the "owners" of this site my 2 cents REALLY COUNTS!! Guys you have NO idea the things the Chandlers have done behind the scenes for SC!! They had wanted it that way so they had gotten it!! Those that were at SQ 03 - how many of you were drooling over the TWO autographed books from the Chandlers?? Other conversations I've had with Norm, though not many have ALWAYS been as professional as you could ask for!

Norm, thank you again SIR for posting!

NOW HOGS quitcha bitchin and get your wallets out we got TWO...HELLO THAT's TWO 2,2,2, rifles to raffle!!

Teaser time....guess what guys, he says with a VERY large Sh..eating grin on his face, there is going to be ANOTHER RAFFLE before Christmas....heck unless the rest of the Council members have read their e-mails in the last 1/2 hour THEY don't even know about this one yet!! NO FOLKS it's NOT another rifle, but YOU VILL LIKE IT!! Still have a few minor things to square away and then we'll tell you what it is!!! :-)

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 04:19:39 (ZULU)

Norm Chandler Jr.,

Just one word for you... Bravo!

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 05:02:06 (ZULU)

I think there were a lot of people here who didn't actually know the extent of Norm Chandler's involvement on this site. I think it was just an expression of Loyalty for GA Precision and George who has helped us so much and been here for advice when we needed it, not to mention the SC commemeratives, holy smoke. This is one of the endearing attributes of this little hole in the Internet. IT's stocked with a great number or loyal good ole boys that look after their own. Anyhow most of us would be honored to have the butt plate off either of these rifles.

Jeag! long time no hear. How's the hunting in the black forest these days? Super good to hear you speaketh!

Brogers
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 05:29:35 (ZULU)

re: accurizing Savage 110.

The biggies are - stock, barrel and trigger.

(Assume that scope mounts and optics have been sorted out).

I stayed with the factory synthetic stock.

Had the stock pillar bedded to the action.

My riflesmith uses a bedding pad around the chamber part of the barrelled action, opinions vary. This is an easy way to ensure free-floating of the barrel.

There were some issues with action screw engagement depth

thru stock that I had to get resolved.

Others will say that replacing the factory stock is a better approach.

I wasn't impressed with the interior finish of the factory barrel,

had it replaced with a Mike Rock 5R rifling barrel chambered to "match" specs.

My riflesmith eliminated the Savage barrel jam nut and used "normal" threading/headspace setup for the replacement barrel.

Some are satisfied with the factory barrel accuracy level, but the

factory barrels will be hard to keep from fouling with copper.

I don't know if my riflesmith had to take any steps to true up the action or bolt to the centerline of the bore.

The earlier generation Savage triggers can be adjusted to a certain point, but you'll probably want an aftermarket unit to get a good weight *and* have an overtravel adjustment. I chose the Sharpshooter's Supply unit, and I have been very satisfied. I'm intentionally running a 1.5Kg trigger weight which is at the heavy end of the adjustment range.

My Savage 110 in .308W is now apparently capable of more accuracy then I can consistently deliver, which is perfect.

(probably around 0.5 MOA at 100 yds). It means any accuracy issues are the operator, not the equipment.

That means I have no excuses :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 06:36:50 (ZULU)

Vic,as you can see, mileage varies, my savage shot ok with the factory stock off bags etc but way to soft for a bipod,its 112 varmint 223,heavy barrel, soft stock,bad.I worked on the trigger as best I could, its heavier than I d like but I learned to use it.I put a choate stock on it and its heavy! definately not a mountain rifle but its more accurate than me and the barrel cleans up very easy,seems to collect very little copper.Ive got about 3.5k rounds through it and very happy.

all the best to the rest of you guys.

prayers for the santa Major and all the folks in the sandbox.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis
bananna, republic, of OZ - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 10:31:20 (ZULU)

Here's to the Denver SWAT team that rescued 2 hostages and left the perp without benefit of public trial and court appointed attorneys. May have to fix an apartment or two but what the heck. Nice work guys!

Vic; I've heard of rough barrels in the Savages but not experienced it. I shot a .223 over 10K rounds and it was slick as glass. It's still shooting for it's new owner, who insists it don't need a new barrel I'd lap a barrel if it was rough enough to notice it. I think it's curious that some smiths take the barrel nut off. Maybe it's easier with other custom barrels or something. It seems that is the endearing quality of the Savage's but It does look a little cheesey I guess. I know a fella who had a smith make him a "change barrel" from 22-250 to 22-250 Ackley Improved and I believe he had a .243 barrel. This rifle is pretty versatile with modification. There was an article in Shotgun News about the Savage Scout and modifications. The one I had (Scout) shot .5MOA out of the Box with a Leupold long eye relief 2X on it. The stock was side warped badly and touched the barrel all along the last 6" on one side. No pressure much but it touched. Go Figure. That stock is so flimsy it just don't fool with the groups I guess. That rifle would outshoot the Remington .308 VSSF I normally shoot.

Brogers
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 15:10:16 (ZULU)

Guys, Thankyou for all the comments. I think this one has the Accu-trigger and yes the (tuperware) stock is way too soft. I will update as I build.

Vic Graham

Vic Graham
Whispering Pines, NC, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 15:12:13 (ZULU)

Norm Jr.

Thank you for your support and additional clarification. I remember hearing your supporting comments to the media during the east coast shootings and they did seem to be very helpful. You and your father's contributions to the profession are substantial and beyond reproach.

I think that the comments on the Roster were about the raffle only and got a little blown out and took on a life of their own. There was no disrespect intended or meant. Ken's post the next day provided additional details, after all it is pretty tough to bitch about a raffle! Thank you again.

I would be delighted to win either one the rifles, I have a pretty big collection of GA rifles already and a Chandler would be a nice addition!

Michael
CA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 17:10:37 (ZULU)

Vic, if you plan on doing any work on the Savage check out Sharp Shooter Supply. They have everything you'll need to work on that Savage. They don't have a website but here is a link to thier catalog on the web http://imageevent.com/richinva/sharpshootersupply Just click on my name for a direct link.

I was looking for a cheap .223 and now I'm getting a Savage 12BVSS for Christmas. I didn't like the cheap plastic stock so I got the laminate stock for only $60 more. I figured it would be better and wouldn't need replacing unless I wanted too. It's not too "tactical" but it's not supposed to be as it will be a fun practice rifle. I like the idea of the barrel nut switch system. I plan on getting a few different barrels down the road from SSS. They have the bolt heads too. $239 for a new barrel and $20 for the bolt head and I can have a .260 or 300WSM. They have new stocks for around $200 also if I wanted something synthetic.

I'm actually a die hard Remington man but when money is tight you go with what you can afford. I wanted a rifle with at least a 1 in 9" twist and the LTR was out of my price range as the 700VS has a 1 in 12" twist. So the Savage won out. I figure alot of people like them and I should go to the dark side and see what the fuss was all about ;) Like I said it's going to be a cheap .223 and with the scope, Bushnell 10x40 mildot-$154, the mount, Ken Farrell 20MOA-$53, the rings, DSA tactiacls-$52, the whole rifle will cost me about $800. We'll see if you get what you pay for or if it will work out.

Rob01
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 17:47:55 (ZULU)

Next generation in personal-level field water treatment gear.

MSR Miox® Water Purifier

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=34333177&prmenbr=226

(You can click on my name for the URL too).

Handy that it uses same 123-series lithium batteries as Surefire flashlights

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 18:11:58 (ZULU)

First off this thing over the raffle has been blown way out of proportion.

I think talking further only turns it into something its not.

Norm after all the comments made in the past about "Boat Paddles" and other insults of others gear, by the Chandlers, I would think you would have a sense of humor by now? My comments where mostly in fun. Either understand that or dont.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 18:20:55 (ZULU)

Mr. Chandler,

Thank you for posting, I read your post with the attention I usually reserve for Sinister, or Rick Bowcher. You should do it more often!

Have you considered a re-print of the D.F.A. series? If so where/when are they available?

On the first ML post, I suggest the T/C Encore. Mine shoots better than my old T/C Hawken (which says a lot), is easy to clean, and if you decide smokepoles aren't for you. You can just switch barrels!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 18:51:08 (ZULU)

Mike, "Either understand that or dont." Now if that isn't a 100% covered position. At least there isn't much in the way of possible misunderstanding. Maybe there is. I could become a book writer, and publish lots of information that I think I know, but really don't. Then I'd be like a bunch of the authors I've read, and magazines I got fed up with.

Bill, hunting here is just great. Without exageration. Sometimes I even amaze myself, until I realize that most is just strategically placed dumb luck due to the fact that a bullet has to go somewhere, and broken clocks are right at least twice a day.

And my question of the day: the wisdom of the group has what answer as to a good place to purchase 223 brass, preferably primed? My requirements aren't Lapua grade, but more of surplus, but with functioning primers. TIA

Jaeger
Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 18:57:17 (ZULU)

Vic,

I own two savages now, a 112FV in .223 and the 10FPLE2 in 308. You made a good choice. Like many have Posted earlier, the stock forend can be soft. I know one guy that did a little work to stiffen it up by drilling and inserting a metal rod from the forend tip toward the main body. Too much work for me. I checked around for a new stock and found that Boyd'd stocks of SD has a great selection of wood laminated stocks, the Warner Varminter is a good solid stock. Presently they only make it with a standard channel cut (for the savage 10. I used a 1 inch diameter and a 3/4 dia. dowel, sanding paper and dremel to widen the channel. Now i can slip a dollar bill in there and the barrel is floated. The slot for the recoil lug is a little larger then it needed to be. A little apoxy tighted that right up. You can special order the stock and have them widen the channel before shipping. The cost of the stock, unfinished (no varnish), with recoil pad was $96.00 (includes shipping to my residence). I have a family, growing teenager and budget has to come into the picture (till I win the raffle). www.boydboys.com Check it out and see what you think. I put my Howa 1500 into one of their stocks and it has been working great! I shoot 600 and 1000yd with it now. If you have any questions, youcan call them and they will gladly talk with you about any concerns.

Steve S

Steve S
Airborne vet Ft. bragg, NC, USA - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 19:05:43 (ZULU)

My comments were not meant as an insult. I just think someone as outspoken as the Chandlers should have thicker skins. How many times does this have to be said. MY COMMENTS WHERE IN FUN.

Once again we are making far more out of nothing than needs to be.

Christ most of us cap on each other all the time and no offense taken.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
ca, - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 20:12:52 (ZULU)

Mike,

Perhaps I didn't understand the humour, but sometimes you is a bit dry, hahah....I don't think Norm took much offense, and maybe you is the hypersensetive critic of your own stuff...

Norm Jr,

Bout time you paid attention, good to see you on board, for the moment at least.....

Hey mates, get to come home to the big ole US of A next week... 5 days and counting, woo hoo!!! My itinerary is all ready worked out, talked with the 5 year old neice today, it's Elf and Cat in the Hat, and something about ponies.......all good..

Cheers for now

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Sunday, November 16, 2003, at 22:57:44 (ZULU)

MIOX;

The MIOX (mixed oxidant) system is a pretty cool way of treating water. It can be done on municipal scale all the way down to an individual. The MIOX pens are about the size of a small flashlight.

MIOX uses electricity to oxidize impurities. Basically, at least in the large system, it takes a salt-water solution and electrically breaks down the salt (sodium chloride) into it's seperate elements. One of which is chlorine. Chlorine is the most popular disinfectant in water treatment. The salt and impurities are then filtered out, leaving safe drinking water.

Jaeger,

I think I remember seeing primed Remington brass at Graf's website. Could be wrong.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 00:49:11 (ZULU)

George and Marty left Benning this evening. Saw Gooch, Mike H from 1st SF Group, Mark Westrom from Armalite, Shaun from Trijicon/ACOG, and Chris Thomas from Premier.

I'm not sure but I think Chris H from 19th SF Group (National Guard) and his partner from Texas came in first, but I wouldn't swear on it.

Paul, the Brit team had L96s and green SA80s. I don't know how the contestants finished, and the Benning Range Control computer allowed hunters in the downrange impact area so there wasn't any live-fire for the vendors' day. The British Territorial Army Team took 1st in the Armed Forces Small Arms Meeting at Little Rock last month with SA-80s, so despite their mechnical shortcomings apparently the scope is no disadvantage. The Brits brought their own 5.56 as they claimed US ammo fouls the gas system (thus knocking down the argument that US 5.56 NATO will be fully interchangeable across our allies' weapons).

Mike Rock was showing a very interesting carbon-fiber wrapped 5R cut barrel that shed 2 pounds off an AR-10 front end. George believes the carbon fiber wrap will conduct heat off faster, and the wrapping "deadens" the tube (eliminates barrel vibration). We'll see. If it works you could conceivably have a 30 inch dead solid Palma, Magnum, or AR-10 tube with better balance and up to three pounds lighter than possible with a full profile conventional barrel. And it doesn't look as gay as the Christensen tube on the factory 700.

Marty says they shot at Burroughs the other night with night vision when they spotted a 200-pound hog through a thermal sight crossing the range near the 300 yard target. Apparently it was deaf since a few rounds went overhead before one of the snipers connected and dropped it.

Poster in rear window of GI 5-ton truck in Baghdad: "One weekend a month MY ASS!" The Guard and Reserve guys are providing great service.

Will be meeting with Guard and Reserve to talk about a new Special Operations Forces Excellence in Competition (leg) match to be fired with your go-to-war kit. Tentatively, the Soldier is dressed in full belt kit, body armor, and helmet. Weapon is his go-to-war M4 or M16 (with all bells and whistles on it, including laser, illuminator, M203, Cappucino maker, whatever) but with back-up iron sight (not everyone has a glass sight). At the command "Fight!" he starts a 1-mile run. At 10 minutes a Figure 11 Hun target goes up for 30 seconds whether or not he's on the firing line (Soldier fires 2 rounds, drops empty magazine, loads a magazine of 8 and fires until he's either empty or target disappears). Targets go down. When everyone's on line they go to 200, 100, and 75 and repeat (20 seconds each exposure, shooting 2 and 8 with a magazine change). At 50 they get the command "Gas!" and have to mask -- at 15 seconds targets come up and go down. They move to 25, still masked, and repeat. Match complete, you go to the next station for the combat pistol match.

Man, this Army stuff is all right.

Sinister
Monday, November 17, 2003, at 03:09:01 (ZULU)

Sarge, it was a real pleasure to meet you this weekend. For those of you who haven't, he's a real nice guy and a good shooting partner. (now, will you tell me what you've got planned for SQ 2004, huh, pleeze?) His is the second GA rifle I've seen, and I can tell you, they produce heavy chubbiness just handling them! I'll pop for a chance to win one any day. Was kinda neet watchin' ole Sarge pull the trigger, giggle, pull the trigger, giggle.....they're THAT fun to shoot. Of course, the Howa held her own, but just. Man, where else can you go and the owner tells you to go shoot all you want at steel out to 1k, then lets you bed down in the bunkhouse? Nowhere, that's where. If I've ever met better folks, I've forgotten. And, just when I thought I'd gotten over the AR-15 match bug, I put some 69 and 80 grain MOLY-COATED (ha!) rounds downrange. Had to wing the dope, 'cuz I lost my dope book and don't memorize that stuff. First round, cold bore, 600 yds.....pow, CLANG! More chubbiness....great weekend, Bobby. THanks!

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 03:36:31 (ZULU)

Just a test

William S. Merrihew
Redding, CA, USA - Monday, November 17, 2003, at 03:40:03 (ZULU)

Today's Atlanta Journal and Constitution (Sunday, 16 NOV 03)

Sniper school

Georgia Army post teaches fine art of killing from a half-mile away

Bill Torpy - Staff

Saturday, November 15, 2003

Fort Benning --- The winds played havoc with trajectory on the firing range, not unlike a fly ball on a blustery day at Wrigley Field.

Snipers know that a 20-mph wind can push a bullet eight inches off target at 700 yards. So Sgt. Paul Buki, lying splayed on his belly, peered through his magnifying spotter's scope and whispered targeting adjustments to Cpl. Marc Veen, who focused breathlessly through the eyepiece of his M-24 sniper rifle. Seconds later, the weapon emitted a dull crack. And then again. And again.

Five times, five hits.

The two-man sniper team from the 2-7 Cavalry, a mechanized unit from Fort Hood, Texas, immediately gathered its gear and padded back to the rear. The two smiled as they compared scores at the third annual U.S. Army International Sniper Competition, sponsored by the U.S. Army Sniper School.

The sniper school at Fort Benning, near Columbus, was an offshoot of an effort to retrain soldiers in Vietnam, where sharpshooting skills were not emphasized. "The sniper employment went by the wayside after the Korean War,'' said retired Maj. Willis Powell, who went to Vietnam in 1967 to train snipers and then returned to Benning to establish the program. ''The philosophy was, 'Put it [the weapon] on full automatic and let it go.' "

Sniper lore has it that the U.S. military used tens of thousands of bullets to kill each Viet Cong soldier but that snipers did it with 1.3. "One shot, one kill," is their motto.

Buki's job as a spotter was to give targeting information to his partner and then watch the "trace" --- the path of a bullet as it slices through the humidity, leaving visibly disturbed air. The 22-year-old Buki, from Erie, Pa., refers to the movie "The Matrix" to describe the phenomenon, before stiffening and adding, "Trace, the wake of a supersonic projectile that flies through the air."

"Good book answer," said Veen, 23, from a Chicago suburb.

Veen had never touched a firearm until joining the Army. "I didn't have bad habits," he said.

Buki is more typical of snipers, having grown up hunting. His father is a two-tour Vietnam veteran. Buki and Veen figure to see their own war. They say they'll probably be sent to Iraq in March.

They have trained as snipers for two years. Still, they're impressed by the veteran teams that have come to compete from the U.S. Army and Air Force, as well as from Germany, Britain and Canada. On Thursday, the two were scoring in the middle of the 21-team pack. "Probably lower middle," added Buki.

The Canadians seem advanced, Buki ventured, before gushing about the newest gizmo he had spotted. "One guy has a Palm Pilot that compensates for the earth's spin," he said. "I mean, good Lord."

Sgt. Kristopher Hector indeed has a gadget that takes the Coriolis effect into account, but he said he doesn't need it for shots of less than 1,500 yards. Hector, a 27-year-old Nebraskan who serves in the 5/19 Special Forces Group, a National Guard unit based in Watkins, Colo., finished second last year and was closing in on first place Thursday as he headed into the target identification event. <