Sniper Country Duty Roster

PeteL ifn you dont think you'll spend all your days in Euro,come down here and we'll seccede a few thousand acres out,declare it some sorta republic,make gun ownership compulsory,outlaw anyone who disagree's along with socialists,greens,bludgers and anyone else that pisses us off,problem solved.Should be fun.Redneck yanks welcome,bring yer guns.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 00:04:21 (ZULU)

Look at the other bulletin board formats for gun queers out there (and there are quite a few).  UBB, Virtual Bulletin, etc.

The problem with most is that they're cold, clinical info.  Threads rarely go long.  Many allow for drive-by comments, but that's about it.  Fish around and see.  Some will have excellent cataloged archives, but you only get 50-odd topics at a time (see shooters.com for their highpower boards back to 1999.  Many have no search engine and data doesn't necessarily come up if you do a google search).

As far as I can tell, this board is the only one of its kind dealing with sniping/highpower rifle shooting.  I find most formats boring and to check on status of threads usually go to "today's active topics" search anyway.

Check them out yerself and see:

sniper's paradise

sniper's hide

shooters.com highpower boards

longrangehunting.com

long-range.com

the delphi forums

culver shooting pages

the biggerhammer stoner (SR-25) boards

sturmgewehr.com

subguns.com

specialoperations.com

ar15.com

Suit yourself.  Mark my words when it passes.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 00:33:34 (ZULU)

THAT said...

I'll take the site however I can get it.  If Scott needs to change it to keep it "alive", then so be it.

I've learned far too much and enjoy the camaraderie too much to risk losing this resource.

Semper-Fi.

Spud,

Out.

Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 00:45:51 (ZULU)

The way this board is set up, we have a free flow of ideas, but that is such a small part of it.  I have seen gusy have seriuos problems on here.  I mean health issues about them and thier families.  I have felt for them and reached out the best I could with support.  Most others have done far more than that. Long term friend ships have been built on here and thats because of the way it is done.

I will just list a few of the guys who I now call friend :

Mike Sheehan

Bruce Robinson

James Jarrett

Bruce Aukerman

Paul Colburn

Rick Boucher

Mike Tak (Never can spell the name)

Mart Bordson

Kelly McMillan

George Gardner

Jerry Rice

Charles Guest

Kevin Swanson

Kent Gooch

Rod Ryan

Jaeger (Name with held for OPSEC)

CDC (name with held for OPSEC)

Both Pats

Brian Insane

JW Huskey

Col Dave

Hell the list goes on many pages. Please dont feel slighted if you got left off, tomorrow I will forget my mothers name but remeber the rest of you.

I try and share with everyone and like the way this place has a family feeling. Old Litto and I love to argue but I have tons of respect for that man.  He insults me in jest and I do the same.  Scott you are not the first I used the smoking crack line on. Just the first to not understand I was kidding with you. I just feel you have spent so little time here you are running into a pool of water worried someone might get burned.

Mike Miller

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 00:59:28 (ZULU)

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20021115/D7NA4OQG0.html

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
NE, California, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 01:12:40 (ZULU)

When I said the knowledge is hamstringed, I didn't mean there was censoring or people were told to take it somewhere else.  What I mean is, questions asked here tend to get lost or ignored in this format.  I still haven't had a single reply to a question about a rifle I posed here.  There are good UBB sites (Sniper's Hide for example) and there are bad sites, but on the good ones, someone who starts an interesting thread is likely to atleast get a response.  As someone else said, it's the people that make this site what it is.  And as I said before, some of the most knowledgable people are on this site.  But, compared to the other sites, there is actually very little talk about things directly pertaining to rifles and shooting here.  Pour me another please, and how 'bout those Browns?  Just MHO.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 01:20:38 (ZULU)

  HELL IF'N IT WERE'NT FOR SC. I WOULDN'T HAVE THE 3 PROJECTS

  I'VE GOT ON THE FLY NOW!!

  IF'N YA CHANGE THE FORMAT  I'LL STILL BE HERE!!!

  AND THE LITTLE RED HAIRED GIRL AT THE COMPUTER STORE WILL STILL

  HOLD UP A NEW KEYBOARD AND YELL ...LITO???? YES LASSIE LITO..

  AS GRUMBLE DAMNED 73 PINTOS UNDER ME BREATH..LOL LOL!!

  (3 keyboards in a year)

    macgregor  

macgregor <brownc@kos.net>
an AMERICANadian up here in CANADIA, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 01:22:41 (ZULU)

>>2. I would rather have our beloved Snipercountry in the new form, than NO Snipercountry at all. I take it from the tone of Scott's (who I assume represents the council) post that the burden in cost and maintenance has become too great for THEM to bare, not US to bare. It don't take a rocket scientist to read into that tone also that if SOMETHING doesn't change, it may go away all together. THIS WOULD NOT BE A GOOD THING AND WOULD MAKE ME EXTREMELY DEPRESSED!<<

I think this has been brought up before but if not...............

I, for one, would be more than willing to contribute a few $$ each month for the upkeep of SC.  We get to play here all the time but we don't understand the actual monetary cost involved.  To have the financial burden absorbed by just one or two individuals can have a detrimental effect on the site's longevity.

I financially support another gun board each month but SC is where my heart is.  If Scott wants to change "the look," that's his perogative.  That may help out with the administrative end but the bills still need to be paid each month.

Don't tell me none of youz sons-a-bitches can't afford $5 a month for the priveledge of crapping all over each other!  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 01:24:19 (ZULU)

My father uses a 7-08 for 1K, except he uses 162gn A-maxes.  He just likes them better.  I have to agree, but I have SMK's and Bergers on hand to use up, not A-maxes.  I'm going to try them, just in case.  

Eric Obermeyer used to use a 7mm Mag, he then had it rebarreled to 30-338.  I was talking to him about it and he claimed that a few people were having problems with 7mm bullets doing weird things and that it was endemic to the 7mm.  Eric's one hell of a shooter, but this sounds like BS to me.  It might very well be that bullet makers are not selling lots of 7mm bullets so they go overlong between retooling, but that's hardly endemic to the 7mm caliber.  Fact is, what somebody like Tubb or Maxbury shoots is going to be adopted by the herd, that's just the way shooting is.  Notice all the 6x, 6-250, etc etc stuff going on.  Bernosky won a few back with the 243Win and I'd bet that 243 chambers were popular for a while until barrels started shooting out at 2K rds.  But locally, most people go with the 260Rem, the 308Win and the 223.  I see one or two 6-250's.  The long range guys are all 6.5-284's, 30-338's, 300WinMags and the previous stuff.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M  

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 01:40:08 (ZULU)

>>I think this just opened pandora's box...  Can anyone say Bushmaster?

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20021115/D7NA4OQG0.html <<

Not quite.  Bob Montgomery, the widow's attorney, is a damn pirhia that will use anybody's grief for his personal benefit.  He's Florida's version of Johnny Cochrain.  He represented Florida in the big tobacco suit.  I'm surprised he isn't involved with the "fast food" suits.

This verdict will be appealed.  The jury placed 95% of the blame on the Palm Beach County School Board and the gun's owner.  The appeal will attempt to name the PBSB as a defendent.  Then watch the verdict get thrown out.  The taxpayers won't stand for it.

Pam Grunow, the widow, is suing anybody she can over this BS, most likely at the behest of Bob Montgomery.  She is no better than he is, regardless of her loss.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 01:48:46 (ZULU)

History of mouse guns is next.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 02:04:02 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 02:20:10 (ZULU)

You stated that most people don't have time to read the site two or three times a day.  I am one of those people.  However, the format of this site allows me to copy the roster to a word processor and print it out and when I have time during the day I read what was posted since the day before and I save info I find helpful.  I have read where a few others do this as well.  I can't do this on other bulletin boards without spending twenty to thirty minutes jumping from one topic to the next.  And these other bulletin boards do not copy very easy because of the layout and graphics accompanying the posts.  I would like to request the new format to be set up so that it can be copied and pasted easily if possible.

I don't have every night free but I would like to offer my assistance in helping with the site, if I can, and the council wants the assistance.  I am not very literate when it comes to servers and the like but I am offering my services as a moderator if needed.

I like the current format but whatever the outcome I will still be here if the info and atmosphere are still here.

Gavin is the offer you made to PeterL open to other SC members.

Keith

Keith <keith37f20@excite.com>
North Central, WV, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 02:33:08 (ZULU)

I looked at the site suggested by Ken...  don't care for it.  Again, I don't maintain this site.

I would think that if the format is changed, I would frequent the 'Roster' or 'Pub' thread and seldom - if ever - the others.  I live in the boonies and have a SLOW connection.  If there are posts I'm not interested in, I scroll past.  Mention was made of someone's asking about powder scales, I answered him off line.  Many people have answered me off line.  I have also asked questions that were NOT answered.  In those few cases, I have asked some one in particular off line and received an answer.

There's an old saying, "We know what we like and we like what we know..."  A change might be better... (I just don't think so).

Opinions are like ass-holes, everybody has one and everybody's stinks... except mine (HA!)

(Edited fer spellin')

Larry

(I don't read any other site.)

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 02:40:27 (ZULU)

Guns shipped via Post Office-is legal only for FFL's and requires a Post Office form to be filled out for each shipment.  Good way to end up with massive Federal problems if found out.  DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!

JR- Spectrashield is a fabric, not a plate.  Massive paperwork to export including enduser certificates etc.  Applies to all bodyarmor, helmets etc.

History channel- thing that was driving me nuts was the damn big cone coming out of the stock on the AI rifle above the trigger.  Surely they've got better nuts than that to fasten on the plastic trim panels?

Trigger finger position-Slugboy once wrote me that since the cantidates are already superior shots when they get to the course, they don't mess with their basic technique.  "Dance with the one that brung you."

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 02:52:11 (ZULU)

Leave the DR the way it is!!!!Dont take my friends away!!!!!

sniff!

;-)

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
Click on my name to visit the leader in tactical marksmanship training - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 02:52:17 (ZULU)

  Maybe you could send Ken a money order in U.S. funds.

  In Alabama, we'll soon be starting our 70 day deer season. Wish you could be here. BTW, what's your occupation?

Roster change:

  I like the look and set-up the way it is. I would like for the archives to be better organized. A FAQ section would be nice, too. I also liked the idea of being able to come in where you left off.

  Like Hulk Hogan says "I like easy", and this site is easy(to me anyway).

  If changing it will make it easier to run, good. But change for the sake of change is bad. Remember all those people who said they voted for Komrade Klinton because they wanted a change?

Scott;

  I've been the commissioner of a gaming league for several years now. I do all the rules updating, rosters, schedules, meetings,etc. Some people are happy with what I do and some ain't happy no matter what.

  If I need to do something to make the league more efficient and stay appealling, I make my reasons known and do what I have to do. The dedicated gamers have always stayed and the ones who left weren't missed. Besides, it's the new players who keep the league fresh.

  I'm not saying I've been in your shoes. However, I believe I understand where you are coming from. Also, I'm artistic and I vote for COLOR!

                   LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 03:01:40 (ZULU)

    Man I hope you are right about the case getting the can in the upper courts.  What I meant by the Pandora's box thing is (and any of you out there who have been through a divorce will understand)  that the 5% is a foot in the door. In a divorce the female (usualy, but not always) will try to get at least $1 in spousal support snuck in under things like child support...ect.  This leaves the door open to go back to court when you get a promotion or a better job and get the amount increased.  The fact is that the gun company, even though it is now out of buisness and no longer making guns, was found guilty, even if it was 5%.  Now people will start expecting 5% or more when they sue the other gunmakers for all the murders/accidental deaths "caused by that gun".  I do agree with the gun owner being found guilty too, anyone who leaves a loaded pistol in an accesible area with a 13 yo running around is just dumb, with a few exceptions, don't nail me to the wall on that.  I was raised in the mountains and kept a 12ga next to my bed since I was about 12 years old (mountain lion getting the livestock almost every night, and my dad is blind).  

Sorry about the rant, this just really pisses me off, why can't people understand that an inanimate object can't be responsible for anything it does, guns don't have brains or trigger fingers!!!!!!

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
NE, CA, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 03:10:42 (ZULU)

George

On another note:  SC Rifle Specifications will be official on Sat, will post here Sat Night at 1800 CST, with all the details.

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
KC, MO, 64116 - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 03:15:18 (ZULU)

Anyone know the best Gun shop around Charleston SC (Goose Creek) that may have a CZ75? If you know of a place please post somthing here or email me before 10 Am..

Thanks, Dirty Steve, Out

PS, John L. I will email you the info you are looking for when I get back. I did not back plan properly and am behind schedule for leaving with things in order..

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 03:51:53 (ZULU)

    You talkin' about that M24 with the hay fork on the end of the barrel? That's the newest(?) version of the Smith/Summers Vortex flash hider. I have their AR15 older version on my SPR clone, and it works better than any other that I've tried with all types of ammo.

   Now for my questions: How long has the Army been using the M24 version, and is it now standard kit for the M24SWS, or optional equipment to be chosen by the units OIC or what?

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 03:55:57 (ZULU)

Scott, maybe I'm being presumptuous, but can I assume that you're also speaking for Ken, Sarge and Marius? Those three have been really great to me personally, and I'd ask "how high" in midair if any of them should tell me to jump. To say that they've got my unconditional loyalty based on my opinion of their character would be an understatement, especially Ken. Not that I don't like you, it's just that I haven't had an opportunity to get to know you. Nothing personal against you in the least.

That having been said, let's see if I can call in a fire mission on my position. And Sarge, like all the others (since the very first long ago), I'll back you up 100%, even if I'm the one in your crosshairs. Not that I'm actively trying, or hoping, but I'm not holding back either.

Now, I had thought out a good response, backing your change-over completely. I did that 100% for Ken and Marius. Anything that makes their lives easier is worth my vote (I vote nineteen times, one for me, 10 as dead people, 4 as illegal immigrants, and 4 as hanging chads, all democrats, most from Chicago except for the chads and illegals, which are from Florida). I realize that my "vote" doesn't count in this matter, as this site isn't a democracy, but in effect, it really is. Here's why. Please indulge me.

After thinking this through, I came to the conclusion that this isn't a "let's make the site better" situation. The site could be made better without changing the roster section, as was previously mentioned. The many statements of what is wrong with the typical BBS and what is right with this forum are all correct. As Dave said, there's plenty-o-plenty of those out there, and in comparison, they stink in comparison. If you're stuck for ideas, there's a metric ton of them for the asking.

I also came to the conclusion that it isn't a "let's make things easier on Marius and Ken" action-item either. The reason for that is the volunteers that have come forward since this action was anounced. I'm taking it that you've anounced it, and that we're in the phase-in time now. At least that's the way I took it. Ken knows I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to computers, but this is my statement that I am willing to contribute some time on a monthly basis, including calling him on the phone ONCE AGAIN, but this time to be shown the ropes of how to help. No, I don't think this is about making things easier on Ken or Marius. If I did, I'd still stick to my original position of complete support of your change.

I can't help but think, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that this change has something to do with the other common thing I find on all the BBS's (I've surfed elsewhere, I live here) but not here. No, not the fact you have all the incredibly FNG topic info in quadruplicate in nice little holes, answered by people with approximately 1/308th of the experience of the majority of our gurus (that post here, but don't post on other boards) but all the stinking advertisements that load before all the text.

Money Makers.

As one of the wonderful friends that I've made on this site -Moe- said, if it's money, we'll pay. But I don't think it's about making money to pay the rent on this place.

Again, please feel free to correct me if I'm out of line in my theorizing.

I think it's about turning this site into a profit center.

Now, I'm slightly more capitalistic than the majority of folks in this country, but I'm also slightly more honest. I don't have anything in the world against the council, owners, stockholders, etc making a buck off this site or anything else for that matter. But I don't think that it ought to be "smokescreened" as something that people would go for - like making life for Marius and Ken easier, info for the new folks more easily accessible, or just flat prettier.

If I want pretty, I'll get it from the love-ewe jokes in the archives.

In short, the reason this does turn into a democracy, and my votes (all of them) do count, is because the profit center doesn't work without hits. If this site changes to something similar to other sites, so will the people that post here.

And there goes the draw, there goes the hits, there goes the profit, and then down comes the site.

You've got real feedback from a good many heavy hitters on this site, and people that I'm personally very fond of - in a non-sheep kind of way - like Mike Miller, Pablito, Dave Liwanag, Kent Gooch and many more. Without those heavy hitters, there is no roster. I personally don't come here to ask about the differences between Hodgdons and IMR, I figured that out so long ago I don't recall. I come here to find out how these guys, who's lives I've been fortunate enough to share, are doing.

As for the "we can keep a forum just like this", I have to ask, if it's going to be just like this, but in a different system, then why is it that the boards with the different systems don't have anything like this?

Because they don't have the heavy hitters this place does. Wonder why? Reread what Dave had to say. He's one of our heaviest been-there-done-that hitters that I'm proud to know.

Reminds me of what Richard Gee said when he took over Gunsite. Basically his statement was that if Gunsite was so inexorably intertwined with Jeff Cooper that it couldn't survive without him, they needed to find that out sooner rather than later. He found out. He's out. Gunsite went down the toilet.

Luckily someone with a good soul fished it out after it had been flushed.

Let's hope that the same happens here, after this site is flushed. And that is, exactly, what I see happening with this change.

Like Kent said, Don't Take My Friends Away.

Sorry for the use of bandwidth.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 04:02:44 (ZULU)

  You asked for "reasons" some of us do not like the UBB boards:

1) I am in a rural area and have slow conections/phone lines. I can click on DR and walk away- in 5 minutes I have it all and can browse. With UBB topics I click.......read.....back.....click....

2) With UBB's, if you psot in what you THOUGHT was the appropriate section but isn't where others look for it. No one picks up your thread.

3) If your subject line doesn't catch someones eye, your post doesn't get read.

No flames, I have no voice here but you asked for reasons for our dislike of that format and these are mine.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 05:22:27 (ZULU)

    How about archives? I know that it is closed now, but I am wondering how to do search in the new format and how long will the site keep old messages?  Old archives format allow you to download every month and keep a record yourself so you can always go back and search.

Looking forward to see the SC rifle spec, George.

Jessie

Jessie <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 05:28:23 (ZULU)

  Just wanted to weigh in on the facelift. I've been lurking around here for a couple years, and usually don't post, due to the " two ears, one mouth " theory, however, when I have posted a specific question, I have always gotten an answer. Usually the answer came in the form of a direct e-mail from one of the old farts with moss on their north sides, like 'lito, CDC, et al.

  So much for not being able to access information with this format.

  Pie fights...well, I got slammed pretty good for my original post, which was a question about recovery time from a shoulder injury. I got over it, and I got over getting my ass handed to me, as well. Seems to be a rite of passage. Anybody ever hear of bloodwings ?

  All that being said, if the Duty Roster is getting revamped, and it sounds like it is, I'll try it. We can always " vote with our feet " if it doesn't work out. I will miss the current format.

Carl Hendricks <rifle30@worldnet.att.net>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 05:32:17 (ZULU)

Well, you can bet we are all going to be profiled by the Feds.  All this gun nut talk and freedom-loving extremist rhetoric!  We will be watched.

The "Total Information Awareness" program - part of the Homeland Security bill will have the feds logging every email, webpage visit, bulletin board post, library book, purchase, toll booth payment (EZ Pass), travel arrangement and bank transaction - among other things.

The new Information Awareness Office, under DARPA- yes that is DOD not DOJ, is intended to spy on 300 million Americans with the motto -"Scientia Est Potentia" - "Knowledge is Power", indeed it is - and the government is obtaining too much of both with regard to its citizens.  

As if that were not enough- guess which most trustworthy of public servants they have appointed to the head position of this agency - the one who is trusted with all of this information on our ordinary citizens is none other than Vice Admiral John Poindexter.  Will you believe him when he promise that the information will only be used against "terrorists"?

If only this type of tracking would be done on those foreigners and aliens intent on entering our country maybe 9/11 would have been averted.  While our foreign intelligence has been eviscerated and now can't even locate Bin Laden so that we can get him "dead or alive" we are launching into an Orwellian scheme to perform surveillance en mass, on every aspect of the our own citizens lives.

The only way to stop this is to be outraged and to let your reps know and tell your friends.

Here are a couple of links...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/09/politics/09COMP.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/opinion/14SAFI.html

If they ask you for a log in try this:

userid - newslinks

password - newslinks

Got to run - think I see a black helicopter coming in for a closer look :)

LT

LTChip
CA, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 05:35:57 (ZULU)

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 06:10:27 (ZULU)

art <atraison@shaw.ca>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 06:12:37 (ZULU)

 CZ75 near coastal SC--try Jim's Pawn on Yadkin in Fayetteville NC--they have a large selection on hand--and probably what yer looking for.  Not far up I95 from your requested area either.  I got a bunch of stuff outta there over the years.  My first firearm purchase, in fact...a belgian HP...ahhh, memories.

Brian,

 R U gonna hit the DC area while your up in Gettysburg?  I'll email ya why I'm askin.  Some good deals just wouldn't survive with too many looking for them...(sorry gents-gotta keep this one close hold).

On the DR:

I came here on a web search.  Lurked for awhile.  My draw to this site is simple--it's like being with a combat unit in the field.  I am removed from the mainstream army, out in the civilian community, and this place is my surrogate Cavalry Troop (A-team, Infantry company--whatever).  

Whatever happens, if that aspect goes away, it just won't be the same.  I will still come for info--it is the best offered anywhere.  But the running discussions, jokes, and heated arguments in current form, the virtual "pub," is a large part of my continuous reading.  I get to work, update the site, knock out some paperwork, get on a conference call (then read the DR when someone else is droning on), and repeat this later in the afternoon. Or I check into a hotel, log on and "pull" my DR update--and read away.  This site is part of my duty day, right after my morning PT, and again at "To the Colors..." It's like I have a platoon to travel with out here in the sticks. You guys have filled the void of comraderie that is missing with this assignment.  

Please Scott, don't lose that aspect no matter what else you do!

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 07:06:43 (ZULU)

 I own the "old" SPR.  HS precision stock, 26" (1-12")barrel are your key points here.  The new ones have McMillan stocks, 24" pipes and double the price.  

You'll get a pre-64 action and a chrome-lined bore.  Otherwise, they are similar to the stealths.  The new ones depart slightly as mentioned above, and the price tag reflects this.  FWIW, I prefer the old SPRs.  Mine shoots better than I can...

Joe M.  

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 07:34:56 (ZULU)

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 08:34:38 (ZULU)

Scotty, we need more power.

Sorry captain, I've got the tubes glowin green as she is, if we don't back off we won't have shit for the shields. Sorry, I got lost for a minute...

Scotty,

If it's money, how much and where do I send the check and who's the payee? If not, take advantage of the infinite talent that has fallen at your feet. I've looked at Kens' work on Aspiring. He's damn good at what he does. To get these offers of assistance , for little or no remuneration, and refuse them to serve your own self interest conjers up images of a sandbox I played in many years ago. I say that because I still have seen no comment from the remaining council members. Change the color, fix the PX or whatever but don't mess with our sandbox.

The web site for the history channel has the 4 tape series on Snipers for $ 59.95. FWIW. I wonder what thread that would go in?

John

Edited to add, ifyouchangeit theirssomepeoplewewillnwvwrget toknow

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 10:30:38 (ZULU)

CDC, I know you're out there.  Please come back and weigh-in on this issue, if nothing else. I miss your political insights.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 10:44:37 (ZULU)

You make some valid points, but there are also some that are not.  You say that others will not post on SC in its present form but that they will should the format change.  You also say that the regulars must accept the change, that it will be what people make of it.  Well, it seems to me that since you are asking one group to change, why not ask the "outsiders" to make the change and not the people that have supported the site since inception.  Another point is the SC Pub section on the new system; I don't understand. Now when we post, the conversation is much like you would find at the bar.  All topics discussed in a nornal conversational setting.  With the new system, it will be like sitting at the bar and having a conversation about ammo and having to get up and go to the corner table to discuss optics and then maybe to the back room to discuss fieldcraft.  The current format is superior.  NOT ALL CHANGE IS GOOD.  

Another point I would like to make (possibly a question) is that unless this site is moving toward being a for profit venture, why is there a need for change?  Fresh?  New?  This is already the best shooting related site on the web.  Like Brian K. said, "if it ain't broke..........."

I have an idea,  but first let me start by saying that I like this site and will probably continue to come here no matter the format.  I know that you guys (council) are the final say, but if this is truly a visitor's site, lets set up a poll to determine which is the preferred format for the site.  A single, simple question like "would you like the site format to remain as is?" or something similar with a yes or no answer.  That shouldn't be too tough to set up.

Well, I could address this for the rest of the day, but I must go.

Semper Fi All

Paul <paulcockerham@yahoo.com>
NC, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 11:52:25 (ZULU)

Darren...

Semper Fi

Darren <usmc_dd214_1990@yahoo.com>
SF, CA, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 13:41:56 (ZULU)

  I wouldn't worry about the 6.5 barrels George is having made. I am sure there is a good reason for the change. Having shot out a couple of barrels I can tell you your dealing with a round that builds pressure fast in the 260s and the 6.5x284.

  I had a 6.5x284 that was chambered a tad tight and it would blow primers at 200fps before the other rifle with the same load. If you look at the 260s compared to the 243s and stop and think that you have a hard time getting 3000fps out of a 100gr bullets without pressure and in a 260 you are pushing 120s that fast.

  Also I don't think Chris is an amature at reloading and all of the loading data he tried was used in one hell of alot of different guns and is more or less the standard load for the 6.5x284s across the country. Tight is nice, to a point but it can be a hinderence also and cause you to build pressure to fast and with a fast pressure building case can really lead to heartache. Good luck in your project you will love the 6.5s!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 13:48:29 (ZULU)

>"Why would'nt you want to learn something new?  Its an easy thing learn, has nice features, and makes discussing ONE topic acutally enjoyable."<

Do you really think we are sooooooooo backwards that we don't know how to use, or have never seen a UBB website.  Some of us have gotten past the third grade, and we do OK on our own... some of us have actually ventured into the outside world and have visited other websites.  Golly Gee!!

If the single thread and easy access is so attractive to you, then what the hell are you doing here?

Go to Sniper's Hide and search to your heart's content.  I'm sure that they have all the info you need, in an orderly, and very neat setup.

>"When it comes down to it, its their site and we just visit it."<

No... it's their site, but WE make it what it is.

>"There is no need in degrading other sites publicly if you dislike their content."<

No one is degrading the other sites... we are just saying what it is about UBBS that we don't like, and mentioning the others as examples,  and what has happened to them because of the format.  If you like them, please feel free to use them anytime you wish.  You can come here for the bad humor, and go to the other site for all the good technical information... I'm sure its there... somewhere!  Just use their search engine!

One of the things that people like about this site is that people speak their mind... should we be PC and not say what we think?

Maybe on the new UBB format, we can have two areas:

"The Pub, where we say what the hell we think"

and:

"The Quiche', Cheese and Whine Bar, where we say what is nice".

-

Scott...

When you say SniperCountry is not a democracy, you are dead wrong... the "People" can and DO vote.  With their postings, and their feet.

I remember back two years ago, when you staff guys got heavy handed and pissy about something, and the Roster went DEAD for a month... only one or two posting a day by newbees, with no answers.  It took three months for the roster to get kinda back on it's feet... Some of those guys never came back.

So you do what you will, but in the end, WE will vote on it, you can be sure.

People come to this site for information that is top of the line... plus comraderie that can't be found on other boards.

YOU don't supply that information... in fact you don't supply anything that attracts people to this site.  The group does.  It's the group that is the real resource here, and if you damage that, you have nothing but an empty UBBS page with nothing for new guys to look up.

But since you say that if it doesn't go to UBBS, "the site is gone", then while your at it, why not go all the way and really fix it.

First change the name to something that is not so offensive to the public, and so it won't attract media attention whenever some snot-ball kid shoots someone from more that 10 feet away.  Make it "Longrange Target Country" or something "nice".

Also, change that shitty art work and get rid of that dumb, homeless sonofabitch in the rag suit.  Put up a round white target with a few bullet splashes on it... we'll all know what it means.

Clean up the image so people like Tom Diaz and Sarah Bradey won't be mis-quoting us all the time, and they can get on with their shitty little lives also.

-

Don K...

>"To me, it's just a shame that so much of the knowledge of the posters on this site is being hamstrung by the failure to upgrade to current software."<

I don't understand how the software "Hamstrung" the knowledge... there is enough unique information in the archives to write three books on tactical shooting, sniping, and off road survival...

... if the software is really "hamstrunging" the knowledge, then I would think that Sniper's Hide would be FILLED with ten times the knowledge that is here, so why isn't it there???  Why isn't the Hide the main sniper website??

-

Jaeger Dudeski...

I think you are onto somfin' there dude.  After looking at the motocicle website (http://www.nesba.com/)... and all the corporate sponsorships, I'm beginning to smell "M-O-N-E-Y".

Youz hogs really need to go to http://www.nesba.com/ and look at that motocicle website, and you'll see what I mean.

I mean real MAJOR corporate money is flowing into that site.

.. and if this is about making money, then I think the "heavy hitters" (as you called them) need a cut.

I mean why sit here and answer questions all the time, so others can sell your knowledge, and cash in on the "big bucks"???

I mean fair is fair... if Sinister posts something about the stuff he's doing, he should get paid for it.

If the Rickster posts something about Sniper training, then he should get paid for it too.

And same-same for the Goochster... send him some "big bucks", cuz he needs some M-O-N-E-Y too.

If George answers a guestion about truing Remington actions... why is that supposed to be free, I mean shit, he's a professional, and should be paid for his advice.

When dick Thomas from Premier Reticles drops in and answers a question about Lupitas, you're getting it from the horsie's mouth (so to speak) so he needs to get paid as a consultant too!!!

Same for Marty Badger, and JR... when these guys answer stuff about mounts or barrels, they need to get paid too... I mean this could be a second job for some of these guys during slow seasons.

And ask me a question about optics, cams, or other stuff that I know???  Send me the money dude, cuz I ain't working for free no more!

We could call one of the subject boxes on the new UBB "Ask the experts", so the poster wouldn't be asking just any asshole on the web (and there are a lot of them)... he would be asking "real" experts.

Maybe we could work out something with PayPAl, so the poster could post the question, and then enter his charge card number at the same time.  If he got 7 answers, he would be charged 7 times, and the money would be automatically divided... 25% to Scott, and 75% to the "expert"!

And how 'bout retro payments... I mean lookie at all that good information that is just sitting there in the archives, and none of us guys got a dime for it.  Well, when the site goes commercial, we need to get "residuals" for each hit on the archivves.  Sinister, George, what do you guys think?

Someone searches the archives for technical information, and we get $2 each, depending on the topic.  I think that's fair!

What do you Hogs think?

-

Carl Hendricks...

>"with moss on their north sides, like 'lito, CDC, et al."<

Moss... what Moss... we ain't got no steeenkin' Moss growin' on our North sides.

It's between our teeth ;))

-

So Scott... if you're going to change it, just get off your ass and do it soon, so this thread doesn't go on forever, and we'll all see what happens.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 14:06:13 (ZULU)

And where's Rick?  I have posted since he has.  This place can easily do without me, but he's unique.

On the change:  There's a special chemistry on this site.  I don't know what makes it work, and I'd be very surprised if anyone else does either.  Part of it may be something as seemingly trivial as the black background.  The "stream of consciousness" psycho-babble feels much different from the threads on other boards.  Unless some $200,000-a-shot statistical consultant is on board, the result of major changes to the site will be unpredictable.  I am very sure of my ground.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 14:30:19 (ZULU)

THE HELL YOU WEREN'T!!! I've been missing your updates and links since your last post and that's how I kept up with the REAL world news. Screw Peter-less Jennings (ABC), Tom Lockjaw (NBC) and Dan Blather (CBS).

Good to see you back.

--

>>>There's a special chemistry on this site.  I don't know what makes it work, and I'd be very surprised if anyone else does either.  Part of it may be something as seemingly trivial as the black background.  The "stream of consciousness" psycho-babble feels much different from the threads on other boards.  Unless some $200,000-a-shot statistical consultant is on board, the result of major changes to the site will be unpredictable.  I am very sure of my ground.<<<

What CDC said. That is a PROFOUND statement and anything that well said is certainly worth repeating.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 14:43:20 (ZULU)

Welcome BACK!

'lito,

Scotty, get out yo' checkbook, pay the pipers.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 14:45:32 (ZULU)

<.....................Moss... what Moss... we ain't got no steeenkin' Moss growin' on our North sides.   It's between our teeth ;)).............>

You should switch girlfriends.

Dan,

good to see you're alive and well.  Welcome home.

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 14:46:06 (ZULU)

I never had a chance to converse with you but you always provided some great info. It was always good to know what was happening in the world.

Welcome back!

JLU

(Edited for double What)

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 14:55:29 (ZULU)

Tony <ruger2000@msn.com>
Alvin, Tx, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 15:13:52 (ZULU)

I like the current format, although I know it keeps a few people away.  Screw 'em, life is not all easy, happy, catered to you, warm fuzziness.  If they are too lazy or easily frustrated to deal with it, they probably don't belong.  The snipers I know don't get easily frustrated with piddling shit, especially piddling admin shit and I know one or two.

Changing to make the anti-gun freaks happy, is silly and pointless.  We can never make them happy.  It's like the Israelis and the rags.  The rags ideal end state is to see the Israelis dead and pushed into the sea.  Let's negotiate, how about we only kill half of you and only take Jerusalem.(for now) Same thing with the anti's.

In the same note, I'm not going to ask anybody to lose money supporting my entertainment.  Being ignorant of these things, how much does it really cost to support this site?  I'll be more than happy to throw some cash at someone to keep things going and it seems we've had a few computer nerds come forward to assist.  If it matters, one of my guys is a big time computer nerd and 8541 and I'm pretty sure I can get him to assist in some way.

Rick is around, I'm sure.  Was talking about the Limeys at Socnet yesterday.

That big snafu two years ago was related to all the asswits coming about posting crap and then leaving IIRC.  That was when Ken Hunter went to the password format and things stabilized since idiots got canned post haste.  S/F..Ken M      

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 15:25:06 (ZULU)

PS. I can't email any of you guys on this site either with my new email address

Tony <ruger2000@msn.com>
Alvin, Tx, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 15:30:06 (ZULU)

Welcome home, my very good friend.  You have been truly missed.

The 'yote Bate even kept strangers off your favorite bar stool!  (He put a big green booger on it to keep them off, so be careful when you sit down ;).

I knew the threat of my fat ugly seester, with 14 boxes of stale cookies would get you back ;))

I tol' you, it's a friggin' Roach Motel ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 15:35:03 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

So I took a look at the Italian camo pattern.  Me likey!!!!  I figger it's the perfect "go-between" pattern.  Since I don't paint my riffles (I figger I'm not the only one) the desert tan is just too light for us Yankees on the East Coast (even with our "drought").  Initially I "voted" for the Black/Olive swirl A3 stock with OD metal.  As far as metal, either the OD or the Tan would be fine, but I think I'm leaning toward the OD/Italian pattern.

Moe and Greg,

Looks like we're in the minority in our choice of the A3.  I doubt that even if there's enough demand (more than the 9 people that voted for it) for A3's that it will be an option, but hell, it's gonna be a great stick anyway (and my first custom rifle).

Later guys,

RichS.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 15:35:49 (ZULU)

JR / Pat - thanks for the "trade" info on the 6.5 barrels... my naiveté is showing... again.  What the hell, you can't learn without asking.  I guess I will always be a bull in a china shop. 'So it Goes'

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 15:41:51 (ZULU)

>>>>Do you really think we are sooooooooo backwards that we don't know how to use, or have never seen a UBB website.<<<<

Maybe not backwards, resistant to change yes. I see this all of the time.  Users get acustomed to doing things a certain way and they fear loosing something because of a pending change. The fear their comfort will be disrupted and the sense of security lost.  

>>>>If the single thread and easy access is so attractive to you, what the hell are you doing here?  Go to Sniper's Hide and search to your hearts content.  I'm sure that they have all the info you need, in an orderly, neat setup.<<<<

I think you meant "unattractive", I am not sure but anyway, it is not that it is or isnt attractive rather that it is quite cumbersome.  The information is good, but it takes four times as long to pick out the valid information.  I visit one other site that contains this subject matter and the majority of my time is spent there.  I read here for the same reason most people do, every site doesnt have ALL the information.

>>>>No... it's their site, but WE make it what it is.<<<<

See that is the problem...  Everyone here can go away today and there will be other people that come to replace us all.  Yeah the site may need time to rebuild its user base if the current users leave, but it wont die. Scott's vision is to make this site more than what it is now, no matter how comfortable the current users are.  Does everyone think that the site is here at their behest and if they went away the site would too ?  Get real, this site is here to provide information for whomever looks for it and to eventually turn a dollar when it is able.  Its not just a "Pub", its the beginning of a business venture.  Like it or not.

>>>>No one is degrading the other sites... we are just saying what it is about UBBS that we don't like, and mentioning the others as examples,  and what has happened to them because of the format.<<<<

It was inferred in one of the posts that other boards that use the UBB software have lower class people in them.  That was unnecessary.

I agree that the likes and dislikes of others formats are valid topics.  The UBB benifits outweight the current formats capability.  The UBB software will have even tighter security features and will allow for better screening of its users than this board software is currently able to handle.  In light of recent events, it isnt the users butts who will get sued and I would suggest that Scott and the other Administrators dont want to hear from someone elses lawyer anytime soon.

>>>>One of the things that people like about this site is that people speak their mind... should we be PC and not say what we think?<<<<<

There is a difference in making your opion known and being arrogant and rude.

God I like a good discussion :-)

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 15:45:06 (ZULU)

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 15:49:40 (ZULU)

>"Maybe not backwards, resistant to change yes. I see this all of the time.  Users get acustomed to doing things a certain way and they

fear loosing something because of a pending change. The fear their comfort will be disrupted and the sense of security lost."<

Sorry, but you are wrong on that one... we all have been on other sites, so we know how they work... we are here because we chose to be here, not because we can't be comfortable in another format.

>>>>I think you meant "unattractive", I am not sure but anyway, it is not that it is or isnt attractive rather that it is quite cumbersome.<<<

No, I meant what I said... you like the format where one topic is discussed at a time, on a separate page... a "Single thread".

Why is it that you new guys insist that what is here is "easy" for you to get... the SC search emgin can get you tons of information.

I do go on UBB sites a few times a week, and they are NOT easy and fast to get around, and the search engines aren't that good.

I went to one site two days ago, and searched for a thread that I KNEW was there two weeks ago, and it didn't come up... I spent 30 minitues manually looking for it, even though it was still in the thread.

UBB will not solve these problems.

>>>>No... it's their site, but WE make it what it is.<<<<

See that is the problem...  Everyone here can go away today and there will be other people that come to replace us all.<<<

That is another mistake... they may replace you in a few days, but most of the regulars on this site are not found ANYWHERE else.

They come here for a reason... they DON'T go to other sites for a REASON.

It HAS happened here long before you ever showed up... when the regulars left, the site just died in two days... and who replaced them.  A bunch of jerks whose names are still joked about.  No new gun makers came to the site, no barrel makers vcame to the site.

It is obvious that you don't know the credentials of many of the people on this site... many guys with plain names are the top people in the country in their field... not just hobby shooters like yourself.  The guy named "freddy" taht you are arguing with, may be the same guy that holds the patent on the thing you are arguing about... You don't replace talent like this in a few months.

Another thing... these people are like magnets... if Rick, Sinister, George, and a few dozen others go somewhere else... EVERYONE WILL FOLLOW THEM.

When the site died before... after about 6 weeks, the staff members started asking the regulars to please come back... cuz nobody was filling thier stools!

>>>Yeah the site may need time to rebuild its user base if the current users leave, but it wont die.<<<

I'm sorry... but all sites have "user bases".  These people are not the reason that people come here.  The "Knowledge base" here is unique.  you can fill this site with "usrs" but that don't mean shit, unless you want to chat with kids all day long.

I know of amny sites that have HUGE user bases... that means nothing.

>>>Scott's vision is to make this site more than what it is now, no matter how comfortable the current users are.<<<

Sorry, but that is NOT the gaol of this change.  You've been drinking the cool-aid.

>>>Get real, this site is here to provide information for whomever looks for it and to eventually turn a dollar when it is able.  Its not just a "Pub", its the beginning of a business venture.  Like it or not.<<<

Sorry... but this "Site" provides nothing.  Scott has written a few articles, but that's it.

The group provides the information, and without the group, there is nothing that this site can provide.

>>> In light of recent events, it isnt the users butts who will get sued and I would suggest that Scott and the other Administrators dont want to hear from someone elses lawyer anytime soon.<<<

That's why I suggested that the site be "cleansed"... get rid of all taht old sniper shit, change the name to something "nice" like a target site, and get rid of the "badd" art work.

>>>>One of the things that people like about this site is that people speak their mind... should we be PC and not say what we

think?<<<<<

There is a difference in making your opion known and being arrogant and rude.

God I like a good discussion :-)

As the Goochster said, I have the personality of 60 grit sand paper... Shit... I love a good pie fight!

-

Grasshopper...

5 minute arguments are $20... send your visa card number ;))

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 16:19:17 (ZULU)

As to the line, if a bunch of guys left tomorrow another bunch would be here. I wont insult you but I fear:

1. You have not thought this out?

2. You have a list fo for hire guys who will do whats been done on here for free? How many Rick Bouchers or Kent Gooch's are there? Not as many as you think.

3. You are wrong?

4. You have no idea how hard it is to get guys with real knowledge in one place.

I go to Snipershide a bunch also. I have alot of respect for the guys on there and especially the guy who runs it. He is completely non profit.

With that said I like this format because it is different. I have seen this place do well and poorly.  Heck we lost some really good guys because of thinsg in the past and they were never replaced.

This is not the only thing recently that has started to go bad on here. I keep hearing about "For profit" and wonder who is pushing this?  I mean what significant thing changed lately? What?Who? jumped into the scene?

We find the answers to the list and we may see whats really going on.

I hope someone stops this before a bunch more leave.

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 16:28:21 (ZULU)

Y’all have put it a lot better than I can, but I’ll weigh in on the side of keeping the roster available as one big list.  If there’s a way to have access to the roster as threads, great- but if you can, please keep the option of looking at all of the posts at one time in order.

On the assignments front there seems to be some great orders coming down to the hogs-  Congrats Col Dave-  I just got orders to P-cola (down to Kush’s AO) to start the Navy Flight Surgeon school-  Boy, this aviation stuff is a long way from the grunt Corpsman I used to be in the first Gulf mess.  Will keep y’all posted

Semper Fi,

Doc McGowan

Doc McGowan <kevinmcgowan@juno.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, Land of the Free - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 16:33:21 (ZULU)

  I don't know you from a sack of rocks and I guess I don't quite know where your coming from on this. I don't think you have a clue about this sight.

  You stated that everyone on here could go away to day and we would be replaced. Maybe so, but what makes this sight and attracts the people here is the "Quality and the knowledge" of the people here and their willingness to share it with others. The people on here who take the time to answer most of the questions on here have many years of experience in the fields of sniping and long range shooting.

  You would be damn hard pressed to replace a 10th of the knowlege the old timers have on this sight. They "ARE" this sight and you would do well to remember that before you go inviting everyone to leave. Why do you think this sight is so popular?? Its not because of our manners and pretty designs. Its because of the knowlege and the people willing to help others in something they love.

 I go to other sights too and there is usually a couple of good people on them but most give you opinions of what they read in "Guns and Blamo" not hard tried and proven facts. Phonies don't last long here they get sorted out fast. If you talk the talk you better be able to walk the walk. It would also behoove you to show a little more respect to the "Knowlegable Ones" on here and not be inviting them to leave unless you think you know it all, but then from the sounds of it maybe you "think" you do.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 16:45:17 (ZULU)

OK, let me be blunt : I'd love to hear -something- from the other council members.  And I was under the impression that Ken was still hosting this site via his pipe and equipment; has something changed?

If it's a funding issue, as others have put it, the raffles should more than cover it, but there are other avenues to approach.  If it's a time issue, I and others have volunteered to assist.

Steve, "All is well", no hurry on da info buddy.

Looking forward to winning the Raffle, and also getting my custom SC stick <heh>

John L

John Leveron <john@leveron.com>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:00:57 (ZULU)

You have mentioned Cartarucio & Clinch River bullets, can you provide a webb site address for some further info for either/both of these??? Thanks.

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:07:59 (ZULU)

Well this is turing out to be a good discussion....

Oh I have thought it out well.  I have had to go through the same growing pain discussions and issues that are being discussed at this site.  

Do you all think you are the only prfessionals that provide information and manfacture products ?  I am not by any means suggesting anything about the products, I am just saying you're not the only ones.  Yes there is alot of experience here, but there are others with the same experience somewhere out there.  To assume that if you all go away it will die is rather presumtious.

Lets discuss the money making aspects...  Look at the for sale section of the site.  There are people making lots of money selling stuff in a "classified ads" format for free.  You dont see News Papers doing that, why should this site?  There are monthly recurring costs involved, software licenses, and ISP maintenance fees.  If this site doesnt make a dime, the owner has to foot the bill on his own.

A step in the self sufficiency direction is to apply a software solution that will allow this site to better acheive it.  There will still be a means of having a single thread "Pub" like discussion.  But what will it hurt to have other capabilities?  It will will only bolster the sites content and user base.  

The UBB software can not only be configured like the forums we have all seen elsewhere on the net, but it can be totally customized to look like its own animal, totally unique.  It will still allow SC to stand apart and have its own look and feel.

It doesnt matter at this point how the site started.  The fact remains that the site has evolved and grown into something more than what it was in the beginning.  Just look at the PX !.  Growing pains are tough to deal with, but in order to sustain growth and stay ahead of the curve, there needs to be change.  Mike you should know this because you're a business owner yourself.  If you did things today like you did 5 years ago, would you be doing as well?  Would your customer base have grown?  How would you be fairing against the competition?

PUNT !

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:14:06 (ZULU)

Get ready for a rolled-up newspaper moving right to left at a fast clip in the direction of your muzzle!  Get 'em, 'lito!

Do you really think this site is self sufficient, and will last for perpetuity?  You are totally wrong.  Remember that the PEOPLE who are the senior members, who contributed almost ALL of the technical information found on this site, and answer the questions on a daily basis on the DR (even the dumb ones and overly-repeted subjects) ARE this site!  Without them, it would be a group of new question asking newbie FNG's asking questions no one answers, or getting wrong answers which is even worse!  Garbage in, garbage out.

YOU CAN NOT REPLACE THESE GUYS!  EVER!

If you could, other sites would be growing exponentially, not floundering like they are.

IMHO, the damn Duty Roster is not the main store of information for the new and visiting viewer!  There are other places on this site that need to be read first.  The DR is for the member who wishes to join others in general discussions.  It is not a forum for people to ask every question they want a free answer to.  A person should first do some research themselves, then be able to discuss with the experienced.

I learned this the hard way, and was humbled by the experience.  It has made me a better man.

If contributions made by others to this site become the property of this site, then those contributors deserve to be compensated if the site becomes a profit center.  PERIOD.

If certain key people WERE TO leave this site, and TOOK their contributions with them, the site might not die, but like a lame horse it will be in need of a bullet to the brain.  Somply because it is that sharing of expert knowledge alone that makes this site stand so tall.

The technology upgrades similiar to what John Leveron has contributed to this site is the way to go.  Let's find ways for the DR info to be archived by subject and topic, but let the natural flow of the current DR remain.

Les

Edited to help get my initial point across......

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:18:05 (ZULU)

Doc, congrats on your orders

Lito, let me see if i got this right, you shit 60 grit sandpaper, ouch!

and I like the A3 stock for the grip ,but if the other one is the choice of the Marines it must be good, and the camo is probably better with the light colors in it

This board should not be changed

Fred

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:18:06 (ZULU)

Until this mess started, I wondered myself on occasion what held this bucket of rust together. I doubted my own reasons for being here and wondered for sure what they were. Now after hearing from all of you guys, there is no doubt in my mind.  

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:29:20 (ZULU)

Your right you dont know me from adam.  And, you have no clue where I am coming from.

I have NEVER suggested that ANYONE leave.  If anyone has suggested leaving it has been the ones that are against any change.

The suggestion was that there are actually, believe it or not, other people that do have the same knowlege, and, to ass-u-me all sniper/shooting knowlege would be forever lost if people left this board is presumtious.   Yes there is a ton of knowlegable people here, and their knowlege and experience is of course a benifit to the users of this site.  I never said anything otherwise.  I merely stated fact, that there are people that will eventually fill that void.

As far as respect for "Knowlegable Ones" ...  I respect everyone equally and hold no one any higher regard than anyone else.  (Unless they give me good reason to not respect them) And to answer your question, no I dont think I know everything, anyone who thinks he does is a fool.  

Just because your opinion has classified someone as a newbie, do they deserve any less respect than a "Knowlegable One"?  I think that attitude is what Scott was referring to.  It tends to drive away those willing to learn or are unfamiliar with the strong personalities of this site.

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:33:37 (ZULU)

Yes, I suspect that some folks do make money on the Emporium, but more often than not the deals are a way for people to exchange some unwanted stuff for some wanted stuff. It is my understanding that revenue from the PX does not go towards the site, but for a private individual.

I think the tone and tenor that came out of the blue regarding profit centers, and edicts issued on changing changing the DR format puts a lot of regulars off.

Back to shooting thoughts......

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:33:40 (ZULU)

The guys who have spoken up have done so from experience not speculation of a fairly new guy who wants to believe.

As to my business. Just a hobby really but it keeps me in touch with alot of great guys. Not making any money but man it did my ehart good to see a few slings in Afghanistan. Got a really nice letter and photo (Cant be shared here) from a US Sniper who used one with success. Hes now a friend. Had to give him a new sling because ebing the team member he was he left it to his replacement, for continued good use. Thats why I do the sling business.

I will survive without Sniper Country and it will me, but if a bunch of certain guys leave it will be left to a bunch of Harris Puplicationn Regurgitating Fools.

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 17:43:41 (ZULU)

Dean, I've got your rolled up Sunday Special.

"The suggestion was that there are actually, believe it or not, other people that do have the same knowlege, and, to ass-u-me all sniper/shooting knowlege would be forever lost if people left this board is presumtious."

No, it isn't. You don't know with whom you're conversing.

"Yes there is a ton of knowlegable people here, and their knowlege and experience is of course a benifit to the users of this site."

No, it is not a benefit for the site, it's for their own enjoyment. This is where your basic premise fails. This site is popular due to these individuals, which you do not know. They entertain eachother and themselves. We learn.

"I never said anything otherwise.  I merely stated fact, that there are people that will eventually fill that void."

And you are incorrect. If you knew with whom you were conversing, you wouldn't have the opinion you do. Your statement of "fact" is actually quite subjective.

"As far as respect for "Knowlegable Ones" ...  I respect everyone equally and hold no one any higher regard than anyone else.  (Unless they give me good reason to not respect them)"

That's because you don't know the qualifications of those with whom you are conversing. Learn something.

"And to answer your question, no I dont think I know everything, anyone who thinks he does is a fool."

You said it, I didn't. I think you might want to check out the background of the individual you were speaking to. Then, according to your upbringing, you might feel it necessary to publicly appologize to him. I know I would.

"Just because your opinion has classified someone as a newbie, do they deserve any less respect than a "Knowlegable One"?"

Yes. Do we have a Veterans Day? Yes we do. Do we have a I-dodged-the-draft day? What's the reason for this? I'm not saying that people don't deserve common courtesy, but they have to EARN the real respect. Why don't you shoot against some of these regulars. You win, they'll say so, and we'll hold you on a higher plane of respect than them. Just because you can. I'll lay odds of 308 to 1 against you though.

"I think that attitude is what Scott was referring to.  It tends to drive away those willing to learn or are unfamiliar with the strong personalities of this site."

Not the problem. You think you're going to teach Rick Boucher much? You think that he comes here to ask lots of questions? Maybe he needs to know how to put a bipod on his stick? Give me a break. These guys come here and talk fun, shop, and anything else they want. You think Rick is easily replaced, look at his background, then appologize. Those willing to learn are taken care of just fine. I was new to this site long ago. I kept quiet for the first year or so, and only contributed what I *KNEW* was correct from personal experience. Good luck getting that elsewhere.

"I have had to go through the same growing pain discussions and issues that are being discussed at this site."

And those sites became as great as this one, right?

"Do you all think you are the only prfessionals that provide information and manfacture products ?"

In this way, yes. Not sales promotion stuff, not salesmanship either. People who use things, seriously, talking about them. Where you going to get more folks like this?

"I am not by any means suggesting anything about the products, I am just saying you're not the only ones."

Interesting. How many heads of companies are there? If you've got someone that is THE man in the field, who is here now, who you going to replace him with? Ah, well, someone will come along eventually to fill his shoes. Granted, he's not THE man in the industry, but he's read lots of back-issues of Guns Go Blammo.

"Yes there is alot of experience here, but there are others with the same experience somewhere out there.  To assume that if you all go away it will die is rather presumtious."

Try to find half. But first, you'll have to find out WHO you're replacing. Once you figure out WHO you're replacing, you'll be making public appologies. If you were raised right.

"Look at the for sale section of the site.  There are people making lots of money selling stuff in a "classified ads" format for free.  You dont see News Papers doing that, why should this site?"

Could there be a charge set up for using that service? Definately. Does that require changing the roster? Hardly. Topic dismissed.

"There are monthly recurring costs involved, software licenses, and ISP maintenance fees.  If this site doesnt make a dime, the owner has to foot the bill on his own."

Unless something has changed, of which I haven't been informed, Ken is taking care of all this on his own. If he's not, there's a good reason, and that is all I need to know.

"A step in the self sufficiency direction is to apply a software solution that will allow this site to better acheive it."

Or, we could just leave certain areas alone, have a raffle per month, and not deal with people wanting to do things like you are. A good analogy would be instead of changing a flat tire (leaving this forum alone), you choose to rotate the tires and drive home. Smart.

"There will still be a means of having a single thread "Pub" like discussion.  But what will it hurt to have other capabilities?  It will will only bolster the sites content and user base."

User base doesn't make anything. The regulars do. Without the regulars, there won't be a user base. Think about it. Learn who you're talking to. And if it could be done, and we're all so easily replacable, why is it that no other site has anything that even comes close to what we have here?

"Mike you should know this because you're a business owner yourself.  If you did things today like you did 5 years ago, would you be doing as well?"

Let's see. 5 years ago, he made slings. Himself. And sold them. We tried them, and Mike, being a particularly smart guy, started selling more. While I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to speak for Mike, I believe I recall him stating that if it weren't for the customer base from this site, he wouldn't have been making slings this long, nor gotten the contracts he has.

"Would your customer base have grown?  How would you be fairing against the competition?"

Ah, but a banner ad at the top of this forum, that would solve all his problems. I see.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 18:11:08 (ZULU)

Fred, a fng

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 18:12:20 (ZULU)

If someone is new to the site, should they automaticly be ass-u-me'd to be inexperienced and not knowlegable?  Everyone has something to offer, afterall, no individual knows everything.

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 18:28:32 (ZULU)

This forum is uncomfortable for newbies and tech heads like Dean and he wants it changed to his comfort level.  

My comfort level is that I can post any dam thing I want to without searching all over the board for where Lito punked me out, CDC published questionable math crap that is making my head hurt, where Undude has just asked Gooch where to get the latest fashinonable Robin Egg Blue pumps to go with the next stalk.  Now I just scan down, ignore the great unwashed and answer whatever I am qualified to answer and glean new info from old and new alike.

See now I would have to start a new dam thread because I am going to mention first focal plain and say it is great as I do not have to worry about where in the hell the power ring is set when I get ready to let a turd hold 175 gr of Sierra Technology in the head.  I know that 1 mil is in fact one mil.  I can hold for his movement and the wind movement.

New thread, dam this is getting to be a royal pain in the ass, and I do hope that I didn't miss something on a thread that I didn't go to as I was not interested in the main title, but Lito Punked me out when he answered it.  The sniper programs on History chnnel has been interesting and am waiting for the LEA one tonight.  Guess I will order the set from the History Channel so that I can glean some for the course here.

New thread and now at another place in the DR, this is getting to be a pain in the buttocks.  Catman, I'll take whatever money I can get but I think the idea would be a logistical nightmare to handle.  :-)

Well I guess I will take this format as I can find and post in a single place and can glance over each post and not miss a nugglet of info from old guys and newbies.  I post at other sites and I always feel as if I may have missed something or find that I did because the thread went unread due to the title.  Do as you must Scott but I think it would be a very bad idea.  I think you will find that posts will be missed and info lost due to that format.

One last thing and Dean I do not care how you take it, but maybe you should start your own board and have all those guys that would replace us go there.  You would have a ton by your estimates and then your stock in this UBB stuff will go up.  Of course this would have to be a new thread started just for this.

UGH!

NEW THREAD!!!!  Mike just talked to the contact we discussed and no problem you old fart.  Just wear the blond ghillie on our next stalk date. :-)

Edited because my spelling is atrocious.

Hold Hard guys will shut my cake hole now.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 18:28:54 (ZULU)

Howas still rule!  Took Sweetpea to the range again.  She sent one downrange at 100, couldn't see anything.  Had her pickle off two more, saw a little glimmer of light on target.  She had put three into a .75" group.  Methinks she'll be a better shot than me.  Of course, she has a great coach!  Explained MOA and scope adjustment to her, had her crank in elevation for 500 and put her on the 10" steel plate.  Three shots, three hits.....now I gotta pop for the Basic course at Badlands for her next year.  (alligator tears are now flowing)  Anyway, I'd appreciate any assistance I can get on re-registering with my new address.  

Chris, we'll be in Goodletsville on Monday before Thanksgiving.  I'll call, maybe we can get in some trigger time while Mamma and family engage in the picture-looking and baby kissing....please.....

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 18:29:44 (ZULU)

Dont be so defensive, life is too short.  

There is a diffenerce between respecting someone for their service and duty, and respecting someone as an adult.  I suggest you do the later, it goes a long way.  I didnt have any arrogance or attitude in any of my posts nor was I attacking anyone personlly.  Just discussion and good ole debate.

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 18:48:59 (ZULU)

So you know, here you have a huge number of people who walk the walk.  So in the order my twisted brain works:  You've got the future CO of the Army AMU.  You've got a current instructor at SOTIC and a guy who has been SF since dirt was fresh.  You've got a former chief instructor of the USMC sniper instructor school who later went to USANG sniper school as an instructor.  You got an optics guru.  You've got several LE snipers.  You got rifle makers, barrel makers, optics makers and other guys in the business.  You've got a few current mil guys that I know of, lots of former mil and I'll bet plenty of mil lurkers.  You've got all sorts of shooters, most of whom are fairly skilled.  

You don't have lots of kids or guys talking out their asses, because they get their punk cards pulled in 30 minutes or less or the next one is free.  That, in itself, is damned useful considering lots of other sites are clogged with fools talking about their paint ball experience or how they kick ass on their Play Station.

Will these guys stay?  Maybe.  If they go, who is going to replace them?  You have a REALLY limited pool to recruit from, and quite honestly, most of them have better things to do than post on the internet.  For that matter, most of the military snipers I know, are much more concerned with libo, poontang and beer than with educating some bunch of civvies on the internet.  No offense guys, that's just how it is.  S/F...Ken M    

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
occupied people's republic of IL, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 18:51:24 (ZULU)

be sure to drop me a line when you get down here, we'll drink some beers and do some shootin'. Doc, you'll do fine, shit, I was a dumb 0321 before my all expenses paid vacation to sunny Florida, and they haven't kicked me out (yet) I went thru API with a gaggle of flight docs, they were a hoot.

To all, Damn the man! Save the Roster!

I like the DR the way it is, no complaints here, except the math threads that start from time to time, makes my little pea-brain hurt!!!!

On a lighter note, my USO scope is finally back, and mounted on my Tac-Ord, was gonna shoot on Sun, but in the infinite wisdom of TRAWING-5, we's a flyin on Sun. That sucks

Later Hawgs

Kush out

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
P-cola, Fl., - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 18:57:51 (ZULU)

As I said before, other than making changes to improve certain aspects of the BBS, YOU WILL ALL HAVE ONE SECTION TO GO PLAY IN JUST LIKE NOW. THAT WILL NOT CHANGE.

Do I need to spell that out again for all the people here crying so hard over this thing that you can not see past the tears? Did you all some how MISS it or has bitching just become so engrained as a way of life here that you can not help yourselves?

I swear to GOD people, you act like the ceiling is caving in and AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU WILL ALL HAVE ONE SECTION TO GO PLAY IN JUST LIKE NOW. It will list your commentary JUST LIKE IT DOES NOW. The only thing that really changes is that we get OTHER sections up for the purpose of education. If some of you regulars do not want to give newbees a hand FINE. Stay in the one section.  Ignore the new sections and it will feel like nothing has changed.

For those really hard core cases who just like to make threats about leaving and pulling material and all that other horse shit, READ THE ABOVE LINES AGAIN. Nothing changes in your ability to come to one spot and do what you do.  IGNOR THE OTHER SECTIOSN IF YOU WANT. But stop acting like children just because we want to provide them.

You know, LES, you f++king piss me off the most. Yeah, we have people come and contribute because they want to. They are GOOD PEOPLE. They understand the site is about education and for reasons of their own they wanted to contribute to the public education. The roster was kept simply so people of like interest would have a place to hang and chat, but it was never meant to become the end all of the site and no one said it would stagnate forever. This BBs has its problems. Wasting everyone’s time on topics like this is one of them. At least under the new system you all can go bitch about the rest of the BBS with out taking up everyone else’s valuable time. Those not interested can go to another section completely and read about something that strikes their interest. Like, oh, lapping barrels. What ever.

So now that we want to improve upon the BBS it guys like you Less who want everyone to threaten us with pulling up stakes and leaving? HOW IMMATURE IS THAT? I suggest you get a life sir. I do not know you but after reading your last statement I am not particularly perturbed by the fact. If you want to spout off rebellion over something as simple as increasing the utility of the BBS, I suggest you go ahead and make your own site and do with it as you will. I am serious here. I appreciate all those who come here and try to help others but when you resort to threats over something so simple as this? GROW UP. GET A LIFE. OR GO AWAY.

Man I HATE saying things like that but the shear arrogance of the comments I am seeing here boggle the mind. Its like hanging out in a third grade playground. What next? People will hold their breath until they get their way? How can you all react like this when in the end, not all that much changes other than they way you log in and the way things are categorized?

Now as far as Less’ comments about people pulling material: Articles written for us are written because the donor wants to help educate the public and those involved in the trade. So what are you saying Less? That if we decide to try and make the site grow and be better, that the donors should all become assholes and adopt this attitude? Sorry man, its about the INFO and helping others LEARN and GROW. Its not just about you all having a place to go bitch and moan or pound your chests with your indisputable and unarguable knowledge. Sadly, every BBS ends up with people doing that. It’s the nature of the web I suppose.  You al want to beat your chests and spout off? FINE. You still will be able to with UBB in the one section we will set aside for you. SO WHAT CHANGES FOR YOU IN THE END? My god, I can not believe I am seeing people get pissed about the color. Just how petty has this place become?

I want you all to have a single spot to hang and do what you do, but I also want the site to be more user friendly for those who come here to learn.

Now, I could care less if some arrogant bastard feels that newbees do not belong and doesn't want to be bothered with them. That is starting to feel like THAT is WHAT is all about. I am hearing people say, “oh, my, if we have an additional threaded section all types will come here and ruin the feel of the place.” BULLSH*T. That kind of arrogance will not fly. Everyone starts somewhere. You all did. Just because you have been on this site for a few years and are knowledgeable doesn't make you the god damn king of the site or this BBS. We welcome ALL people interested in learning about the craft. Not just those who seem to think they know every thing or know best. WE WELCOME ALL. AND WE HOPE ALL WILL Get involved in teaching. But if some of you, in your own close minded attitude, want to blow them off, that is fine. Just let the rest of us get on it with and you can stay buried in the Roster all the rest of your live long days. By its my hope that every once in a while some of you, the good and honest many here, will want to come out of the Pub and check out the other sections. But if you do not, SO WHAT? IT’S A BBS and you may use it how you please, to a point. But others, well, others may go help and not get all uppity about it saying ignorant things like, let them ferret the info out themselves. I hope your fathers didn’t tell you that when you wanted to learn to shoot.

It was, and IS, my intent to have a BBS which would allow greater learning than goes on here on the current Roster. But it was never my intent to TAKE AWAY YOUR PLAY GROUND, which is the way many of you are acting.

So, all I can tell you is that when it finally comes around, and it may be a while, I do not know, but when it does, stick around and see at least if its all we hope it to be. If not, bitch. But for heavens sake give it a rest and go back to your normal operating procedures here. You’ve just wasted two days on this thing for nothing.

Scott <powers1@voicenet.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 19:05:53 (ZULU)

Anyone going shoot'n this weekend ?

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 19:35:34 (ZULU)

>Aren't the proceeds from the rifle raffles enough to address those fiscal liabilities?<

Unless I'm mistaken the "profits" from the raffles so far have been donated to the Army Navy Relief.

Dean - FWIW, the knowledgable expert regulars on this site cannot be replaced.  On line or off line, I've never had one of them treat me with anything but utmost courtesy.  I haven't earned their respect yet, as a rifleman, and therefore don't expect it.  If they want their radar fixed though, I'd better damn well have it <G>.

I love this site & the DR just the way they are.  That said, the only thing that will entice me to leave is if Rick, Gooch, Pat, 'lito, Undude, yotebait, Brian and others like them do so.  They're more than just "the regulars", they're teachers.  They leave, I'm following.  Don't try to hide guys, I might not be the best rifleman but I can track like theres no tomorrow.

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 19:40:09 (ZULU)

Scott, if someone besides you on the council had something to say in support it would go over better. Many of us looked at you as someone out of touch with the site for a long time.  Ken, Marius, Pete and Sarge are around all the time, except when you come on and play big dog. Right now it looks like you are alone. You stormed back in with "this is how it is"  That attitude wouldn't last five seconds in many of the guys here worlds.

Good Luck

Mike Miller OUT

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 19:40:20 (ZULU)

You are right, I forgot about that. I still thought that the first part went towards running the sight, and the balance went towards the charity.

The sight has been a real drag today.....

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 19:51:12 (ZULU)

  I think you and I will probably have to agree to disagree on the number of people out there who have the combined knowledge of the people on this sight.

  I have met a lot of fine shooters both civilian and militay and call many friends. When I got into the tactical shooting game I scoured the net for info on it. When I landed here I knew I had found a home.

  I talked to Kent Gooch on this very sight and he was willing to help me find out what I needed to know about a match I was intrested in attending and even gave me the name of the man who had won it the year before. Then guess what?? I had the privlage of meeting Gooch and competing against him at the next match and I also met a really nice guy who happened to be a good friend of Goochs. His name is Bruce Robinson who just happens to be the inventor of the Mil Dot Master and a  regular contibutor on here.

  Lets not forget Rick, though I have not had the privlage of meeting him yet I do owe him at least a case of his favorite beer for all the help he has given me on and off line when I was learning the mil dot system. Then there is the Catman who had me send him a trigger (That was screwed up by a gunsmith) When I was having trouble getting it adjusted right. You know, he fixed it, paid the shipping and would take nothing but a thank you in return.

  I could go on all day with things like this. I have met some of the guys on here personally and those I haven't I still consider them to be some really good friends and would open my home to them anytime they were in my AO. So what I am getting at is there is "NOT" a lot of people out there like the ones on this sight with the knowlege they have and if there is, like Rick said, they sure as hell aren't intrested in sharing it with a bunch of "Civies" or "Newbees".

  I hope you stick around long enough to learn for yourself what I am trying to say. Then if you do you may change you mind about them leaving and being easily replaced.

Jeff A..

  Welcome back old friend long time no hear. Did the meds finally wear off(HA). We miss your humor!!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 20:04:01 (ZULU)

"Stop acting as Childern?"

"Buried in the Roster all the rest of your life"

" I suggest you get a Life"

"Grow Up, Get a Life or Go Away"

"I could care less if some Arrogant Bastard feels"

"you can beat your chest and sound off"

"you ALL can go bitch about the BB's without taking up everyone else's valuable time"

"The shear aggogance of the comments I am seeing here here boggle the mind"

"Some of you,The Good & Honest many here"

This could go on forever, but the above quotes makes it own point.

Numerous posters and lurkers have walked the talk. Military LE instructors, teachers, learners, some have both, Some have experience in all of it.

The "Been there, Done it and have the T shirt to prove it"

Take the newbie  Most of then are all mouth and no ass. Some listen and learn, some get lucky and the rest die.

I read a post on one of the other sites. A honest question from a newbie "what is the differance between the Rem ADL and BDL"  His answer was "Long actions are BDL and short actions are ADL" You will never see that type of an answer on this site. This was on a thread about Rems and no one corrected the answer.

I respect the high quality of posters here. Many people can partake but some become experts and outshine the rest of us even though we walked the same path.

 The knowledable know that they don't know everything. Instructor attend other instructors schools to pick up new knowledge What was taught in 1960-1970 may still apply but not to level that being taught today.

Some old tied and true ideas still work todays, Some are forgotten and then relearned as "New" until research proves that it was done before.

You may accept this as a retort or just read it and think about what was in the post.

AS the ol Gunney stated IF I hade want you to shoot 7's I would have told you to shoot sevens now Dammit shoot me a 10'

Semper FI

Bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 20:04:09 (ZULU)

There was a standard policy in effect for those new to the DR who posted questions about subjects that should be common knowledge and have been beaten to death on this site in the past. Normally they would be referred to the Archives, and to 'litos' essay as required reading. This was not only fair to them, because 99 out of one hundred  times the answers to all of their questions would already be there for the asking. It was also fair to the longtime "residents" of the Roaster, as I, for one, can't stand to have to endlessly repeat myself or listen to someone else doing it. Some of these new posters whined about not having the answers to their questions served up to them on a silver platter, and drifted away.

Education is mostly about learning where the information you seek is stored, and how to retrieve it. If someone is not willing to work for the answers, the answers must not mean much to him anyway, and will be treated as such. I ask y'all this - Are the rules of the game going to be changed to attract the 'Drugstore Sniper' to attract more hits in an effort to turn this site into a profit center (not a non-profit break even) with banner ads, maybe pop-ups, maybe even subscriber lists sold to 'sponsors'?

I'll do what I predict most Hogs will do. Stick around for a while, see what's goin' on, and be gone if it turns out like most of us predict. And it'll be a cryin' shame! Remember the "All New 1964 Winchester"? Sometimes that's what change gets ya.

Grasshopper,

            You came here for an argument? NO YOU DIDN'T!

Pat,

   On the 6.5's rapid pressure build up, what Ken M. says about the leade situation, but allow me to add one thing (that you probably already know). Remember what happens when you have a relatively small bullet base area combined with a reasonably hot powder charge (we need the velocity to get the flat trajectory) and throw in the exceptionally long bearing surfaces that these high-BC, small diameter bullets must have to achieve their purpose and the result is a very quick and high pressure rise when loading for optimum performance.

Winchester-Olin learned this back in 1962. See if you can find a copy of W-W's Tech Bulletin No. 1 of 9/62 titled "The Development of a New Cartridge" by J. G. Baker, Assoc. Dir. of Ammunition Development. BTW- it's about the .264! (I lost my copy or I'd send it to you.)

CDC,

     I saved the best for the last. Good to see you back.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 20:04:09 (ZULU)

The over pressure was partially my fault.  I loaded up one each at 50,51,52,63,54 and 55gr H4831 and all went through fine.  I then cleaned and even though I had my target velocity at 53gr I had 5 loaded at 54.5gr already so I figured,, hell 55 went through with not rouble, so I shot that first one and BAM!!!  I though I grenaded the action.  Thankfully,, it was alright and has been the best rifle I've ever owned.  Can't remember the CULT leaders who turned me onto it ;))

Match Info:

Tentetive dates of Mar 29/30 2003.  Match fees are set at $50 per team or $25 per person provided we can find you a partner.  Half the match fees get returned in prizes.  Two day event and we've added a night pistol fire. We should have a date hammered out in the next few weeks.  Looks as if the Pistol pop up range is doable,, and possibly a carbine pop up range to 300 also.  Still waiting on word for the automated ranges.  Anyone that has any comments, questions or suggestions please hit me on my mail.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 20:22:21 (ZULU)

“You know, LES, you f++king piss me off the most.”

Les, now that I think about it, he’s right. You’re a sarchastic twit. Welcome to the club, let’s go have a beer.

“I suggest you go ahead and make your own site and do with it as you will.”

I surely hope that someone will, not to see this site die, but if it goes the way I fully expect it to, unless someone starts a SNOOPER COUNTRY –that’s for our Scouts!- where there’s just the difference of a background and a name, we’re basically all SOL. Who owns the rights to the SC software anyway? Is it for sale?

“some arrogant bastard”? I’m not SOME, I’m THE arrogant bastard. To you, that’s MISTER arrogant bastard. That’s a joke there boy, you get it? I’m all for lightening the mood a little.

“You’ve just wasted two days on this thing for nothing.”

Nope, we’ve wasted two days on it because a grenade was thrown through our living room window. Grenades tend to “induce change”, “redecorate”, and “invigorate” in much the same end result as I see this change doing to this site. Including the change of color and the end result.

Now for Dean and the Sunday Extra Edition.

“Dont be so defensive, life is too short.” Thanks. I was worried about living too long, and not having anything that I cared about. Please let your alma mater know that your PhD in psychology has paid great dividends to those around you. At least now I feel that I can own my feelings openly. Dirty Steve, I think I need a hug.

“There is a diffenerce between respecting someone for their service and duty, and respecting someone as an adult.”

And there’s a difference between giving someone who has no idea which end the bullet comes out of the same respect as someone who HAS EARNED the CO position of the AMU’s. If you reread my previous post, you’ll see that I espouse showing everyone common courtesy. That’s what you’re referring to as “respecting someone as an adult”. What I’m not willing to say is that someone who has a rather cramped, oversized closet full, of been-there-done-that T-shirts is entitled to exactly the same treatment as the tremendously revered new guy (for which we are changing the site) who just bought his first 30-30 and wants to hit an elk at 550 yards. Imagine that. Want to revere someone? How about the guy that put his neck on the line to keep your freedoms as they currently are. Let the other guy earn it if he wants it. That’s how society operates, much akin to not having a “welfare recipients day”, but having a Veterans Day.

“I suggest you do the later, it goes a long way.”

I treat everyone with respect, until they dictate otherwise. If you think this is showing distaste for you, you’re incorrect. When the gloves come off, you’ll know it.

“I didnt have any arrogance or attitude in any of my posts nor was I attacking anyone personlly.”

When you state that we (allow me the indulgence of saying I’m one of the regulars) are easily replaced, and that there are people out there that could easily duplicate or even surpass my compatriots for experience and knowledge, I do find that insulting. Yes. Personally insulting. So you weren’t insulting anyone personally, although I took it much akin to saying “this is a room full of sheep shearers”. Except these folks are my friends, and I’ll stand for them. THEY can call me a sheep shearer, strictly due to the fact that I know them, they know me, we both know what kind of beer eachother likes, and it’s taken as a joke. You, Sir, aren’t in that category, and I shan’t take your calling me a sheep shearer in nearly as good of a manner.

“Just discussion and good ole debate.”

No, debate is on an intellectual level. Unless you’re debating with a leftist.

And now to paraphrase a rather good statement, “I am not an employee of this site, I cooperate at my discretion, not at your behest”.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 20:31:06 (ZULU)

 Yea, I know what your saying, I probably didn't come across to clearly in my post. I read a really good article on why they get the velocities out of the 260s and such. I think they called them "Hi Energy" or some such catch phrase. What they were saying is pressure builds much quicker than normal say as in a 308. I don't really remember enough of it to quote it.(HA)

All you Hawgs!!

  Have a nice weekend and don't beat up on Scott to bad. I am sure he understands and will do whats best for the sight. I am hoping tomorrow will be nice I need some range time to wring out that 308 from hell on some long range targets. Any of you guys have the come ups for a 168MK out to 800yds??(HA)

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 20:51:10 (ZULU)

Bolt, Paul, I probably won't make the across-the-course at Butner on Saturday (forecast is 80% for rain).  Will probably try to get a 100-yard zero on this Palma rifle, and then see what the forecast is for the 600-600-1,000 match on Sunday.  Looks like last match of the season will be the NM course and 1,000 at Fort Gordon, Georgia 23-24 November.

For the Palma I'm going to try 155 Lapuas Kev Mussack sent me in front of 46 grains of Varget in a Lake City Match case, Fed 210M match primers, through a 1-13 Krieger 30".

Doc Mac, were you the eye doc in Yokosuka?  I spoke with the USASOC Surgeon and the local chief of eyeballs here at Bragg a while back reference SF-cleared surgery (PRK and LASEK - not LASIK).  He said it will be a significant change for the better as far as quality of life, and was really recommending it since I am a free-faller and shooter.  After further discussion he said that he steered away 3 other guys and me from the surgery because although he could guarantee better than my best spectacles prescription he couldn't get better than my best hard contacts prescription.  BIG risk for long-range shooters, either irons or glass sights.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 20:54:49 (ZULU)

Shiiit fellas, this mess is getting way out of hand. We gonna fight each other now since the Maryland stuff is over and we ain't got no one else to fight with at the moment ?

I mean, I'm all about a good fight and all, but come on ! This is just the internet for goodness sake.

Let's see what the hell happens. Stay if you want. Go if you want. But quit all the bitching. We sound like a bunch of (gulp) women. If it goes to shit, you can all mail Scott personally, tell him you told him so and what a dickhead you think he is for not listening to you and messing up his own website. Hell, ain't none of us sleeping together last time I checked.

In a hundred years, who is going to give a rats ass about all this anyway ?

Hugs and kisses for Chrissakes ya bunch o' grumpy ole bastards.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 20:56:27 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 21:02:21 (ZULU)

1)"paintball" to razz teenaged trolls

2)"sheeplove" to study romance

3)"elitist snobs" to razz the flying icepick boys

4)"curt math" to be insulted about my cranial deficiencies

5)"curt news" to find in minutes, what would take hours concerning current events/politics

6)"moss floss" for dental hygene tips

7)"insain coonasses" for belly-laughs

8)"cal./ability ratios" to develop a thick hide

9)"peter's pigs" for hunting tips

10)"political firefight" for historical context............OR just hang out at the "DR Pub" for all of the above in an entertaining,enlightening,enjoyable format.........Not hard for me.

Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 21:05:15 (ZULU)

Looks like someone did not completely read my posts.  I stand here, Scott, in the circle as "Number 2" man.  You want to call me out, then step in the circle as "Number 1" man.  

NOTHING I have ever said (up to this point) here has been personal, and YOU should show more control over your emotions.  Probably affects your shooting ability, too!  I'll offer no apololgy for "pissing you the f++k off."

I addressed your poorly worded explination and blunt approach to your opinion of the current DR, offered solutions, my observations and even praise for the changes made so far.  And now I offer my assistance to help this site in any way possible.  BUT I WILL NOT STAND FOR YOUR BAD ATTITUDE NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE.

Is the subject of changing this current forum not important enough to be discussed here?  You are acting like a politician, if you can not win the argument you attempt to suppress it.

Believe it or not, I have not and do not now promote anyone leaving the site (except one dipstick we had on here recently).  I have never recommended that.  Hell, I like these guys!  But if they (The Hogs) catch wind of this site making bucks on their work, the fur will fly!

I can't hold most of these guy's jock straps when it comes to LR shooting.  I do not profess to be an expert on anything shooting related (except this little badge the Army awarded me five times, and in three different countries, not just some training range......and this little German rope award).  

I have accepted your wrath on the behalf of everyone who has disagreed with you over the last few days, since you jumped in and started spewing feces.  I welcome feedback, but your unprofessional methods probably set you back a little with those of us who do not know you personally.

I will stand clear, away from the rest of the troops, awaiting the incoming mortar round from Sarge based on your probable fire mission request.

I apologize only to those whose time I have wasted.  Every minute I have spent here up to this point has been well spent!

Les

Edited to tone down......

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 21:06:25 (ZULU)

What they did is take a hobby site, and once the site owners got the info they wanted, they used the knowlege of others to make money for themselves.  I for one contribute here to help out with what little I know.  I don't know much, but what I do know I am damn sure of. I  hope this site doesn't go the same way.  

Lets see, A raffle generate $5000 roughly, take away $2500 for the rifle that leaves $2500.  Doing 4 a year is $10,000.  If this site cost more than that to operate I'd be real supprised.  If this is what's going on please tell up.  I would like more raffles anyway.

Dean, you and I have never spoke, If you were half as right as you like to think you are about magic bullets and this site, you would be a geneous.  And before you criticize my grammer and spelling just give it a rest.  I am still waiting for the demostration in Idaho, but oops.........I for got it's top secret right???????

Scott, I will support whatever decision you make, just don';t be suprised at the decisions other might make as well.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 21:10:42 (ZULU)

I tried sending an email test from our latest home email addy. And, yeah, the meds have long worn off since my therapist was admitted to detox. Now, I rely on massive doses of running, weights, and riffle shooting. Works great.

I'm going to beat the rust chunks off the 260 and try some 140 gr JLK's here pretty quick.

Plus, I went into a fugue state at the local gun store last Saturday. When I came to, my credit card was smoking and a M70 Laredo in 7mm Rem Mag. was in my greasy little claws.

So, I'm thinking about testing some 168 MKs, and some 168 and 180 VLD's to see how it shoots. It came with the Boss thing on it. I still don't know if that's a help or hinderance.

Does anyone have any experience with loads for 7mm Rem Mag Boss'ed rifles? I took the rifle apart and got all the factory oily shit off of it and put some of my oily shit back on it. I would appreciate all the good and bad feedback I can get. I'd like to see how it'd do at long ranges with the factory barrel. If not, then perhaps it would make a long range kitty neutralization platform.

Gooch..

Are you still lean and mean and running?

And would you move your shooting range closer to Smyrna so I wouldn't have to drive so far?   ;-).

Dean..

This week end, there's the 600yd prone match at Easley range at Ft. Benning. I can't go because of family stuff.

But, Saturday, raining or not, I'm going to George Lainhart's range and shoot.

The two Sniper programs on History channel the last two nights were great. I think there's a third installment tonight ?

Enough of my blather,

Jeff A.

BTW, Ken.

Thanks again for your response to my email earlier. A perfect example of why this sight is so good.

Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@bellsouth.com>
Smyrna, GA, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 21:35:20 (ZULU)

OK Les, Scott, MISTER arrogant bastard and others...

We have taken this to insane stupid levels.  If Scott puts up a piece of software and configures it to maintain a "pub" area that looks exactly like the site we have now (which he said he would)... why are we still arguing?

Collect a bunch of Type A personalities and things will flare up at times, but this isn't even close to a "valid cause".

Scott - I dare you to put the new software in and make it look exactly like the old for a month or two... put no new features up during that time and see if anyone notices the change.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 21:36:10 (ZULU)

I will email you when I get home...  still at work  :-(

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 21:53:53 (ZULU)

Sinister,

  Master Paul and I conversed last night and we aren't going Saturday either. I'm going to bring the stainless hog with me Sunday if it doesn't rain us out. I told Paul that if it was pouring down rain when I wake up Sunday, going to roll back over and get some needed sleep. Have barely seen daylight for the past two weeks and am about brain dead.

  I just ain't ready to make a fool out of myself with the mouse gun yet. Will have enough range time in between now and next February so that at least I might can keep them peas on my own target LOL! Joined a 200 yard range about 30 minutes from here so at least I can make a fool out of myself for awhile without anyone seeing it.

  Looks like there will be 26 opportunities for us to shoot together next year according to the proposed 2003 Butner schedule. Maybe we can even hog-tie Bowcher and drag him away from the sniper babies for a day or so (if he can take the pressure)!

Welllllll now,

  It appears that usins that work at hospitals are on the latest color coded target alert list. Jeezzzzzz, imagine that. I could have told them that September 12 of last year. What better place to hit, than the places that take care of the damn survivors? I guess it takes awhile for information to trickle down to the feds. Now, just why the hell don't they trickle some of this Homeland Security money down to the hospitals where it is REALLY needed? Guess they actually think that we won't be first line responders when the contaminated survivors start breaking the doors down wanting treatment.

 I wish the chicken shit terrorists would come over and play one on one. I would actually contribute to hiring a boat to bring the whole damn lot here just so the non-military dudes here in the states could contribute to the cause. Send the military overseas to handle that problem, the old fart rednecks will handle the problem here. However, I am sure that we would have to buy a hunting license so the states could get their tax money.

Time to get the house cleaned up before Doughlady gets home from Cary. Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 21:58:50 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 22:02:15 (ZULU)

< Hell, ain't none of us sleeping together last time I checked.> How quickly you've forgotten taking me to the Rodeo! ;-)

And are you REALLY sure the chicks dig you? After all, don't Cowboys think 8 seconds is a good ride?

Running for my life.............

Brian's bitch.

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 22:02:31 (ZULU)

What usually happens is that I call a bluff.  I don't originate those threads and never post anything that I can't prove.  

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 22:12:35 (ZULU)

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 23:18:38 (ZULU)

Were you referring to me ?

You have the wrong fella, that is someone else that talked about doing some kind of a test then backed out when he was confronted...

I am in Booford Geowja

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 23:18:43 (ZULU)

Welcome back Dan. We missd ya!

Doc

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, November 15, 2002, at 23:25:29 (ZULU)

A fine example of the clever repartee offered by some young kid on what is supposed to be the special operations MEU-SOC Scout Sniper board (this is the vB or Virtual Board format).

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 23:36:11 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 15, 2002, at 23:49:01 (ZULU)

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 00:05:34 (ZULU)

    I see things have been getting a little testy around here.  I surely do enjoy the spontaneity of the Roster.  It's become a daily read, sorta like a newspaper for me.....that combines friendly jesting with genuine, useful information. Plenty of Winnie shooters too, and I like this Pub the way it is.  Back to lurking.

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Country, MN, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 00:16:23 (ZULU)

How goes it?  I might go shootin tomorrow IF ALAN WILL CALL ME ! hehe :-)  If I dont hear from him, I will go down Sunday to Fort Benning.  I have some more loads I want to chroney and see how they group.  You been slinging lead lately?

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 01:29:54 (ZULU)

CDC - I know you challenge only that that does not make full sense, and your math is sound.  Heck I have joined in on your side even when I haven't a clue of the process only the end result, however, it still gives me a headache.  :-)

Hmmm, I seem to remember a guy shouting something about you can't call him a cowboy until he see him ride, 8 sec huh?  Wait till he gets to be my age, that will slow him down a second or two!

Bolt - Will have to get away for a bit, my heart can't stand no more.  Working straight for the next several weeks (Thanksgiving off of course) and then blissfull screw off time.  Hoping to get up to Butner and sling some rounds down range just for the sheer heck of it.  A few friends of mine and I are planning on a more active year next year just to break the obsessive compulsive we aquire sometimes when we lose students.

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 01:51:13 (ZULU)

Dear Valued Blackhawk Friends and Dealers:

BlackHawk Industries' vow to excellence and United States policy, National Defense and ideals:

"Blackhawk principles strongly support American policy, ideals, and way of life - a strong national defense, and top law enforcement and first responder capability. In this time of national crisis, we are ever mindful that our products can make a difference to our national security."

Blackhawk remains dedicated to delivering the best tactical nylon in the world - top quality products that take brutal punishment, delivered on time every time in the quantity and numbers our customers need. As the world changes under incredible circumstances such as the 9-11 terrorist attacks on our American way of life, demand for Blackhawk products is skyrocketing. With tremendous effort and change, Blackhawk has been pressured to keep up with this rapidly growing demand and at the same time prevent product price increase for the last 7 years! Every effort was made to keep our factories growing in the U.S. to support quality and demand, but a total lack of a work force base failed to support our challenges despite our best efforts and we were forced to explore global manufacturing.

Concerned for the reaction of our customer base to such a move caused us to redouble our efforts to find a possible alternative, yet the answer continually returned to the same best solution - to meet Blackhawk quality, standards, and goals, the shift to partial global manufacturing was the absolute best move. Blackhawk has also found that such a move is on the tail of a huge U.S. economic shift to global markets, which include Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, China, Taiwan, and others. The United States normalized diplomatic and trade relations with Vietnam last year elevating it to "a most favored nation status", a culmination of years of efforts by the White House and Congress, to include such leaders of unquestioning American integrity as Senator John McCain, former Navy fighter pilot and North Vietnamese POW and President George W. Bush. Other companies have been utilizing global manufacturing, taking advantage of the gradual ease of American trade restrictions, to include: Gregory, Lowe Alpine, L.L. Bean, Arcteryx, Mountain Equipment, Osprey, Eagle Creek, Jansport, Camelbak, Galls and Cabela's, and the list goes on and on.

Blackhawk remains dedicated to its customers - to best support them, we do everything possible to produce top notch, rugged quality, quantity, and delivery timeliness while attempting to hold costs in line. Additionally, our principles strongly support American policy, ideals, and way of life - a strong national defense, and top law enforcement and first responder capability. In this time of national crisis, we are ever mindful that our products can make a difference to national security. To do so, we must meet our goals to work to remain as part of the American global solution. Our appreciation and respect for your continued support is absolute.

Thank you for your support and your duty to our country.

Sincerely,

Mike Noell, U.S. Navy SEAL, President and CEO

MY THOUGHTS:

It sure does make me proud to have such a "Standup" American Manufacturer express such "Patriotism" and support for our American ideals, way of life and National Security.

It pleases me to no end to know that by purchasing "Blackhawk" products that I'll be supporting the Communist Government of Viet Nam.  As Communist Countries have so highly reguarded our American ideals, way of life, and National Security.

I'm sure I'll remember Mr. Noell proudly as a "Fellow Patriot" as our economy slides a little further South and the un-employment lines get a little longer.  For how else could our National Security be more supported but by sending more jobs "Off Shore" to Communist Countries.  We sure as hell wouldn't want to see them "at least" be sent to an "Off Shore" Ally Country.

I'm so proud that the excuse is "Geee, look at all the other companies doing it".  I'm sure I'll remember them as highly in my prayers this Thanksgiving Day also.

It's so "Heart Warming" to see such "American Corporate Patriotism" so soundly measured by the Bottom Line.  I'm so proud to see an "American Patriot" wrap himself in the American Flag just before he jumps ship with all the other rats.

I'ed laugh, if it wasn't so damn sad.  I think I'll go puke now.

PS: Check your new Blackhawk gear, some now has tags "Made in Viet Nam".

TreverSlyFox <treverslyfox@greendragoninn.zzn.com>
Houston, Missouri, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 02:05:02 (ZULU)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57089-2002Nov14.html

Rick:  Makes my head hurt too.  

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 02:06:14 (ZULU)

Hope that FN SPR is still doing the job for you and you're able to make it to the range tomorrow.  As for me, sighted in the Rem. 1100 for deer hunting which opens on Monday.  Damn, shooting a bunch of those 12 guage slugs from the bench rocks your world.  Oops, my apologies to the guys here for talking about shooting instead of bitch slapping each other.  

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 02:17:24 (ZULU)

This post is about education, and net formats.

I've been a lurker since I discovered this site, about eight months after it started. I down loaded those eight months as soon as I could and read them. I started to learn what to do with my first run Rem. VS in .308 from that info. I've been here ever since.

I've been teaching technical skills, teamwork and field craft to small groups professionally since 1983. My own experiences, observations and discussions have led me to strong opinions on how people learn. Several regulars have said IMPORTANT things on this already, but I feel I have to say something on this topic.In a recent  post I referred to a mess hall environment, I chose that over "pub"  after a lot of deliberation. You don't have to go to the pub, but if you volunteer you have to eat in the mess hall.

In the eighties I took full advantage of an opportunity to teach something I knew really well, to a group of professional soldiers. I taught the reality of mixed mountaineering, route finding, load hauling and organic rescue to an element of the tenth group, Special Forces (ABN). I worked as a Civilian Contractor through the DOD, but it was the guys I ended up teaching who found me. They were re-establishing their Mountain Warfare Committee in preparation for their new home in Colorado.

I  worked, lived and ate with these professional students for several weeks off and on till they moved out of Ft. Devons. It's the NCO mess that stands out. It was a fantastic training environment.  Since I was there to help them go beyond "the Book" in my topic, I saw the mess hall as a tool  for them to go beyond "the Book" in just about anything. I saw strong opinions spouted and just as strongly rebuffed. I saw experts in a field say "Don't ask me, I'm a Neanderthal compared to Sgt. Heywood. Ask him."  I saw the New Guys mystified by Sgt. Heywood's lecture on the topic, only to have the men in the middle of the pack explain it to them. Usually they had four different versions that were 90% right.  The NCOIC  was my chief liaison, and he pointed out this dynamic and gave me the play by play. I also saw people be told flat out to "sit down and shut up, listen and learn"  I even took part, but only on my turf. I told a forty something E-8 that " when it comes to a rescue raising, at night in, freezing rain on overhanging rock, you only know enough to get a lot of people killed. This is my field and I  Will keep you alive. I know you could make me a soldier  but only if I WANTED TO BE ONE" His response  was " Yes First Instructor!!!"  Teaching then got easy.  I latter found out from the NCOIC that It was a setup and I'd passed the test. Story told. Teaching continues…

These people wanted to learn what I taught and wanted to be sure I wanted to teach it and also could really "walk the walk". Every one who comes to this site has volunteered to come here. They are welcome to lurk ( i.e. listen and learn) but until they get a feel for the ethos of the marksmen, they don't know the questions to ask. In the net format no one can see Sgt. Gooch 's Stripes or  Officer Sain's Badge or all the scars on a lot of people. You can't see how the OLD GUYS got that way without becoming DEAD GUYS.  We have experts in Many fields, but you only know it from context. Reading through all the B.S.  tells you something about the guy who tells you about " 6mm br".  What I know about reloading wouldn’t fill a .22 short, but when it comes to boots and ropes I am a HOG. As a teacher I'm in the middle of the pack. I'm told I'm in demand as a team builder; I don't know,  I guess so. I do think I can constructively add to this discussion.

Every one who posts here Volunteered a second time by registering. By registering I have taken on the obligation to help this team train, to be part of the community and take my deserved " sit down and shut up"  when appropriate ( I am expecting it now).  As  Dakota Aviator said this is like school. I think it is a post Doc.  level professional training program. You have to take the whole program. One of Gooch's students just joined us, he commented on how much he learned here.  We know his teacher, so we know what he already (should have) learned; he volunteered to go beyond "the Book" and signed up for the whole program.  Sure it is nice to be able to quickly  reference data and get your questions answered but the journey of discovery in answering your own question makes it stick. This is why "crawl, walk, run" works and we don't say "do exactly what I say and run" Some one I trust told me "there is no school solution to tactics". The school solution is like a pre-fab come-ups card, It will work most of the time. If  You never made one, you Do not know how to fix the problem through improvising on a theme. To make tactics really work you can't memorize answers, you have to know how to do research and analyze the situation. You must also be exposed to "the Hogs"  so you can observe and emulate.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen the square wheel reinvented by a self isolated group, only see months of their work go up in flames when an old hand says " we tried that in 1968. It didn't work then either. There's even a book about it"  I think lists or threads are fine for discovery  to a point, but you need guidance as half the "guided discovery" formula.  Without the roster's current format included in some way  we all become guilty of doing exactly what our schools do. Saying: " Read this political agenda approved, basic topic survey  text and ask only questions from that book. Attend four credit hours of my caned lecture, from the instructors version. You will pass the book test. You will be prepared."  Does anybody remember  " Shake-N- Bake" Sergeants or know kids in school today.

In summery: Scott, go ahead and change the site structure, put the files in any way you want and issue the site a new uniform. That’s fine. Could be really useful.  Please include a General Roster/ Mess Hall/Pub. It will be the place the pros (and those who learn from them) will go. The rest is just lists of lists. NO background, No trust. People don’t learn from lists. Lists just help you remember what you learned.  People learn from teachers they trust (yes, a national school problem). You only gain trust in context. The pub provides context and reality checks.

Which brings me to a third point: Lets write a book.  Another class project.  A real class-A thought out, encyclopedic discussion of the topic of snipercraft and how to really learn it. The butt of my laptop is propped up on "the highpower shooting primer", it is 530 pages of articles all bound and edited in one place.  At minimum we could do something like that. There are better formats though. I know we can do better.

Everyone,  I'm serious about the book idea. I'm pretty sure it has come up a few times, and we're halfway to a first chapter with the articles and reviews. Send me your opinions, thoughts, Ideas and curses on or of site. I may not know squat about reloading but I do know something about how people learn.

I apologize for the long post, I had a lot to say. I'll sit down and shut up now, and go back to my lunch/beer. But know that your teammate had something to say and felt strongly about it.

Said my  piece,

Web Crittenden,

-Critter

Mountaineering Hog.

Better-than-some, Marksman.

Critter <webcrittenden@aol.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 02:21:19 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:25:48 (ZULU)

Man have I ever got a story to tell ya if I ever get across the pond.

later bro,

bks

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:26:47 (ZULU)

art <atraison@shaw.ca>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 06:48:41 (ZULU)

All the SC rifle list people watch out, the VIRUS F#^$&%&*$R is at it again using a " custom rem 700" sending address and no topic, but a nice infected attachment to go with  it.

Critter, I like what you said.  I think alot of the initial reaction was shock because their is no other place like this ......period.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 08:11:29 (ZULU)

CDC, glad you're back.

Titan (or anyone), e-mail Virus - are there any out there that can attack without the attachment being opened?  Can we avoid e-mail virus by simply not opening the attachments?

Thanks

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 09:33:22 (ZULU)

I just received a rifle cheekpad from them and 2 from Eagle Industries.  The quality of the B/H is a little lower than the other 2 but it got here first. I'll look for a tag today, but I don't recall seeing one. I can assure you my next gear purchase will reflect that note from Trevor. That was a lame excuse for failing profits. Thanks Trevor.

Sinister,

I checked out Socnet after I read one of Marcinkos' books. It amazes me that anyone that hasn't BTDT actually posts anything. Makes this place seem mild, by comparison. "lito uses newspaper and Sharkey uses a piece of 2" steel pipe. It's a great place to get info on special forces though.

CDC,

Damn, I'm glad your back!

Art,

Sometimes even new guys have wisdom to impart. Whether it's heeded, in the heat of an argument, is another story.

Opening day of shotgun season, gotta go help paint the calves orange and then eat pancakes at the firehall. Open house and pancake breakfast, it don't get no better, does it?

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 11:00:42 (ZULU)

I take a couple weeks off to hunt deer and come back to a big argu....er discusion.

And the worst thing is I missed the dang riffle raffle, now that really pisses me off.

My hunting partner just got one of those Leica 1200 rangefinders, it really does make the Bushnell look like a POS. He ranged a deer at 875 yards and a rockpile at 1300. Gotta get me one of those!

Watched the History Channel Sniper series, it was good, glad I taped it. Now I can watch it a couple hundred times, that will piss off number 3, but what the hell she makes me watch shit like Sleepless in Seattle, it put me to sleep. :0

Aw hell I think I'm going to take another week off and do some more bowhunting.

Ya'all Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 11:00:52 (ZULU)

You have mail, N/A.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 11:03:55 (ZULU)

You have mail, N/A.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 11:17:10 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney <yenak.gl@verizon.net>
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 12:06:24 (ZULU)

Did you ever get that pin out of that M1A?

John <one338winmag@hotmail.com>
Liberty, TX, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 12:10:03 (ZULU)

I got a laugh from it....

Str8shot

str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
south central, MI, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 13:19:04 (ZULU)

The hot tips section was supposed to be the compendium of the best of the roster, but without a full-time editor that's a challenge.  The Highpower Shooting Primer is a compendium of ten years' worth of the best of Precision Shooting (Highpower) , and it wasn't thrown together at one time either.

I remember when Mike Noell's Blackhawk catalog was a dozen sheets of line drawings and typed descriptions that looked like xeroxes or dittos.  He would make everything custom for the Operator.  Then he started out-sourcing to Korea.

For Haiti I asked for custom 40mm grenade panels for a vest.  From his customer services folks: "If it's not in the catalog we don't make it."

For Cambodia I wanted a modified LBV with magazine pockets off the TAC vest.  "If it's not in the catalog we don't make it."

Every time I've gone to John Carver at Eagle Industries in Saint Louis, Missouri (in the USA) it's been "When do you need it by?"  Express delivery including to overseas addresses.

They say you can tell a lifer by how much of his own TA-50 (web gear) he uses or has in the garage.  Funny, most of mine has the little Eagle on it with the "Made in USA" tag.  Lightfighter.com also carries London Bridge and SOE.

Now if somebody made the norrona Norwegian rucks in the states that would be the heat.

I like to think I'm not a gear snob, but I also go back to the guy who supports the Operator.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 13:19:21 (ZULU)

More on the potential for getting rolled in the Security Council:

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002625

In the case of the Security Council authorization of the invasion of Iraq, this is politics as high-stakes poker. There are cards we can see and hole cards that are being dealt "down and dirty."  Our hand is being played by Texans.  I don't have a problem with that.

There's some guy here who says he wants to talk about rifles.  For some reason he keeps saying "oops."  As far as I can see, nobody's stopping him.  If you want to talk about rifles, talk about rifles.

Dan

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 13:28:54 (ZULU)

I got mine from Euro Optics in PA for $415 plus $10 s&h.  I haven't seem them anywhere for near that price and the guy Alex warrants them also.  >>www.eurooptic.com<<

Jeff A -

You've been away too long.  Gooch's "school" is now in Japan!  :0

SniperCountry Ownership -

It's been asked so here's the answer, I think.  If I'm wrong, someone bitchslap me.

The SC site is still owned by David Reed, the founder.  The Council (Sarge, Ken, Scott, Marius & PeteR) now maintains the site but doesn't own any rights to it.

If the Council has responsibility for keeping this site running, why the hell aren't the other four making themselves heard over the proposed changes?  All we've heard so far is a unilateral diatribe on why change is good.

Has decision-making been abdicated to a sole individual?  I think we'd all like to know.  Something doesn't smell right.

I know some of you guys (like Boltster) have maintained a large SC email listing.  I hope you keep it updated.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 13:34:46 (ZULU)

You have mail. N/A.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 13:34:47 (ZULU)

Before I knew it was made in Korea I bought a scope cover. after I received it I sent them an E-mail that said "What about Made in America". I have yet to receive a response of any kind. I have not bought anything else from them. Now it is Eagle or Desert Diz that I buy my stuff from.

CDC:

Welcome back! I have missed your info dumps.

TonyM

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!! - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 13:55:05 (ZULU)

The 6.5-06 is almost identical to to the 6.5x284 as far as internal and extrenal ballistics.  Hit me off the DR and I'll try and get you in touch with a dedicated 6.5-06 shooter.  If you think you're going to sell it,, slap yourself in the face man,, it's an awesome round.

Oh,, include the barrel length, barrel twist and chamber specs if you have them.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 14:08:44 (ZULU)

Not yet, I just received the punch set from Brownells on Wed. and have been switchin scopes around on rifles tryin to get the LTR set up for bear season. Jaeger was gonna look for a taller front post site for me (for the M1A) and I kinda been waitin on that. Plus, I neeeed a manual. I got lots of tips off line about how to though. If you got any ideas, I'm all ears.

Ken, rifle raffle.

You have mail, N/A.

John  

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 14:35:10 (ZULU)

 CALM DOWN!!

PLEASE let us try the fancy high follutin changes, The Council has been evaluating this for two years at

least, and see if they will improve Sniper Country.

These  Mother of all Pie Fights mentality outbreaks seems to happen every Fall during the Rut season,  

FRIGGIN Chill Dudes - BREATHE!!!!!!

 I think the free sharing of knowledge and information is the MASTER key to The Duty Roster,  

We have all made some great friends here and help each other  THROUGH THICK AND THIN, MULTIPLE HEATED DEBATES, DELIVERED GOLDEN BB's, funny stories, tragic situations, poor health,

and more importantly had the chance to be mentored by  true Sniper community folks taking time away from their jobs, families, and personal obligations to assist us with self improvement.

 A parallelism can be drawn to the  Sniper rifles (Good choice huh?) here methinks.

 What would have happened if the U.S. military had not adopted and evolved through the 1903  Springfield, Garand, M-40/M-24 SWS series and kept everyone equipped with an iron sighted  .30-40 Krag in todays combat enviroments?? Well other than Rick B. who cut his sniping teeth on one ;-)

The Duty Roster SHOULD not change ( I ain't a mputer Guru so I can't promise) , we can even keep the colors black & green.  

 If the revisions make it easier to find data, file data, and saves Marius and Ken time with the fancy stuff,

WHATS THE PROBLEM??

 If we desire collecting a little money through advertising related products we believe in,  to fund other raffle items?

Yes we do have plans for some pretty neat shit in the near future,  

a stipend for contributors of relevent well written articles,  

or an EMERGENCY donation to a one of  us(meaning EVERYONE, not just the Council) who suddenly becomes serously  ill, or with a family member in a similar situation, and massive bills..  IS

THERE A PROBLEM??

Marius and Sarge will post their feelings when they feel ready.

and  lastly  

Stop the silly childish threats to leave, attempts to do so will result in your immediate assimilation and dispatch of a platoon of Roster Rats to hunt you down.  :-)

Be back soon!

Chao!

Group  Huggy!

 XoXO

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 15:32:28 (ZULU)

No problem... I am surprised it hasnt happened before now.  When all that was going on, I made it a point to lurk because I knew that was going to happen...  There isnt a terrbily large number of Deans running around.

Go pop the top on one for me.

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 15:32:46 (ZULU)

How is the throat wear on a 6.5x06 vs 6.5x284 ?

PeterR;

The frigging rut season !!!  ROFL   Thats the ticket !,  We're all in rut, now, where are all the doe !

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 15:35:25 (ZULU)

From what one of the HardRock 6.5-06 shooters has told me,, it looks like the barrel life will be almost identical to a 6.5x284.  He shoots Hart barrels, and went from 6.5x284 to 6.5-06 due to the 5 gallon pals of 30-06 brass he has on hand,, and I KNOW you know who I'm talkin' about ;))  He used the same dope to get the -06's set up that he had for the 284's.  

When I shot the LR regionals in Oak Ridge, the other two guys on my firing point were both 6.5-06 shooters.  With new rifles, less than 70 rounds through each, they turned in some very decent scores.  Both were marksman, and I have no doubt each one will get to high master with the 6.5-06.

If I didn't hate fire forming,, I may opt for a 6.5-06AI instead of the 284 case.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 16:09:42 (ZULU)

I just scrolled back to read your posts about some of the changes to improve the SC site. If I read it correctly there are going to be sections for learning/teaching various skills, and the DR will still be intact? That sounds okay. I may have missed it, but when do you plan to have the changes completed?

Best Regards,

Bill Bledsoe

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, KY, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 16:18:55 (ZULU)

I just scrolled back to read your posts about some of the changes to improve the SC site. If I read it correctly there are going to be sections for learning/teaching various skills, and the DR will still be intact? That sounds okay. I may have missed it, but when do you plan to have the changes completed?

Best Regards,

Bill Bledsoe

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, KY, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 16:19:20 (ZULU)

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 16:20:19 (ZULU)

You speak the truth......now we understand the true motive behind the proposed changes.  PROFITS!  I wish Scott had been more concise and open about his (the Council's) ultimate motives.  Maybe the feedback would not have been so "anti-change" and more understanding of the need for growth.  Openly insulting or underestimating the members here can be a big mistake.  And the way it looks, we are the majority.

So, I now fully understand the need for updated software to assist you guys.  Go for it!

But, on the other hand, if my system starts receiving multiple pop-up screens, slower downloads and searches as well as more unsolicited mail or SPAM, I can not see the advantage.  Assure us that will not happen, and I will feel more confident.  I know our e-mail addresses can be sold/given to paying customers, and I am not for that, no matter what the profits to the site can be.

Scott, after taking time to re-think the subject and situation, I understand your desire for changes but still can not comprehend your delivery of the subject.   Do whatever the heck you guys decide, just do not EVER bash me like that again.  My initial comments were never intended as a personal attack on you or any Council member.  I will continue to remain professional about things on this site, and I expect the same from others.

I personally thank everyone here who has contributed information to this site.  (Especially the Winchester stuff!)  Scott, that includes you too!  :-)  Teamwork can make this thing better!

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 16:32:25 (ZULU)

Thank You for your patience & understanding,

PROFITS are not the exact word we were looking for by our definition,

its more to make the site self supporting, OUTSIDE of Council and some wonderful volunteers pockets.

AND

to allow for better "things" for  the collective body of membership.

ergo: New raffle items outside of rifles ONLY!

Possibly something like "bulk buying power" for lowering the costs of related products collectively later on down the road..........

 I have said it before, AND I'll say it again

Its what EVERYONE does for this site which makes it the "happening place" in the shooting community, and we wish to evolve and continue to be on the cutting edge for EVERYONES benefit.

I now return you to the regularly scheduled Pie Fight ;-)

GAAAH-SKI -three edits!!!!!!!!!, darn broken paw...........

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 16:49:54 (ZULU)

Operative word here is "gentlemen."

Let's drop it, quit SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS, using profanity in our arguments, and see if the DR stays in the same format. (I've already cast my vote.)

On another note:

Have another batch of Mildot Reticle License Plates. If you want one, contact me off the Roster. No, they're not free!

(Edited for punctuation)

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 16:54:23 (ZULU)

You're wrong.  Dave Reed gave us the site to run, maintain, own, do-with-whatever-we-please.  We just had to acknowledge him, the way we do with pleasure.  He started this site, he deserves the credits.  But now it is ours.

I'm not even going to read all that has been said here at this stage.  I'm just saying the following:

Quit all the talk right now!

The mutiny and talk of it is over.

Nobody is removing any stuff off the site.

The Council will sort out this matter, in our time, and will get back to our member/visitors once we've reached a decision.

That is all I have to say right now.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 17:06:42 (ZULU)

I hope to see you guys at Butner tomorrow.  If they are going to shoot the match, I will shoot no matter the weather.  A popular phrase comes to mind (in the military anyway), "if it ain't raining, you ain't training."  Just joshing.  It'll suck, but this is my last one for a while and I have to shoot it.  Also, I think they are calling on 15-25 mph winds tomorrow as well.  That will serve only to depress my scores further.  Should be fun.

By the way Sinister, if you are interested in shooting on a target with a puller, get with me early.  I think we have 2 more slots available.  Cost will be either $15 or $20.

Also, to anyone interested, I have been experimenting with Ramshot Tac Powder lately and getting pretty good results.  I have loaded 22 rounds and will shoot these in the 600 yard team match tomorrow just to check it out.  Of course tomorrow will probably not be the best day to determine accuracy.  This powder is making really good velocities.

I will end with a question or two:  I was looking at a Precision Shooting magazine recently and in the back few pages there are results of various benchrest shoots with equipment lists of the competitors.  Something that struck me and which gives rise to my question is the fact that 99%+ of the competitors were shooting either Hart, Shilen of Kreiger barrels.

Aren't all three of these brands button rifled?  Why not cut rifled barrels?

I thought the conventional wisdom was that cut barrels were the most accurate.  Please note:  this a real question from someone that does not have and has never had a custom barreled rifle.  I am not trying to start an argument, nor am I trying to pit one against another.  Just curious.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@yahoo.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 17:30:02 (ZULU)

First of all, several units are trying the stuff out as we are.  I was wondering if any of you illustrious individuals have ever used it and if so how you liked it or if you found problems.  I found that it cleaned my weapon with fewer patches and in half the time.  I have NOT noticed an impact change in my M24 even though it seems to have a dry lub process.  The M4s were still functioning after over 500 rounds fired in half a day of scnerio work.  It normally takes several re-applications of lub to keep the M4s going.

Understand this guys, I am NOT endorsing this product, it is new and thus an unknown in weapon maintenance.  I am trying to find a past history of this stuff before I buy hugh quantities.  We purchase in the multi hundred gallon lot so a bad purchase is expensive!

Any info would be appreciated and posted on here would let others know as well.  Thanks guys and see I didn't even raise my voice, I don't think.

Pete - I did not cut my teeth on that POS, but close.  :-)

Str8shot - That rant was due to a number of posters going berserk because they asked a question and no one answered.  Some of the questions were OPSEC violations and some were just plain stupid and best left ignored, ie "how does it feel to kill someone?"  After that gem the poster went ballistic because he had been ignored, so it was answered in a manner that I do not think he was ready for.  That then resulted in the post you just linked to here.

OK guys enough blatherings on my part and I appreciate any info on the cleaner I talked about.  I can't rember the name now but it is like Strike Hold, Strike First, or something of that nature.

Hold Hard and stay safe guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 18:14:49 (ZULU)

     I believe that the Kreiger barrels are cut rifled. Didn't Mr. Kreiger (is it Jack?) work with Boots Obermeyer for a time? I know that Boots recommends Kreiger to customers who can't or won't wait for one of the beauties from his one-man operation! Kreiger does have a less costly line marketed under the Criterion lable that he tries to keep seperate from his Kreiger brand, but people with certain Weatherby models keep mentioning Kreiger, I suppose in hope of the added value that might be added by association!

     I'm not a Highpower competitor. I do, however compete in Service Rifle with both an NM M1A and an AR15 (using both drags my scores down but I do it anyway), dabble in F Class, and shoot an occaisonal Garand Match. Having spoken to the Highpower people in my club I found that competitors develop a relationship with a certain barrelmaker, or a 'smith that uses the products of only one or two barrelmakers. If the shooter is satisfied with what he's getting why screw with a good thing? Personally, I think that the difference in accuracy would show up more between a button and a cut rifled barrel in a benchrest competition where it's my belief that the equipment has a greater effect on the scores than in Highpower, where it's the shooter that makes the bigger difference. Just look at David Tubb, it seems that he wins with whatever he shoots! Besides the fact that on the average a button rifled barrel usually costs less money that one that's cut rifled, and the guys that are serious at this go through a bunch of barrels comparatively speaking.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 18:37:18 (ZULU)

I reckon I would have to join an army that liked to fight in nice cool, dry weather preferably with a hot tub and sauna near my foxhole. Naturally, we would also have to take mid-day quiet time breaks and have a snack in midmorning served by some nice looking coed part-time daycare gals. They would also tuck me in with my favorite blankee.

Getting old is a bitch, Boltster out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 19:19:27 (ZULU)

The name of that product is Strike Hold.  Figured that since one of the guys was saddled with Staff Duty today I would call and have him look on the label.  See even us old farts think smart sometimes.  :-)

Hold Hard guys

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 19:33:26 (ZULU)

http://compufolk.com/prod02.htm  The stuf sounds interesting.

Rick,

Do you guys patch it out before sending the CBS down range?

Alan,

I too shoot highpower but wouldn't consider myself a competitor.  There's really only about 5 competitors,, everyone else in the country is playing catch up.  I like the cheapo Wilson tube on my DPMS.  It shoots better than I can EVERY time, cleans with less than 10 patches, shoots whatever I put in it good and is consitent to about 300 rounds.  Kinda funny what you said above.  When I started shooting XTC the guy teaching me said , "Now look boy,, I know you been shooting all them fancy rifles with the expensives scopes and all be we're "area" ahooters.  If you can keep all your shots inside that there 4" circle you'll whip everyones ass." Ahhh, words of wisdom ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 20:30:39 (ZULU)

You are correct sir.  I stand corrected.  Straight from Kriegers website; "Krieger Barrels, Inc. manufactures precision single-point cut-rifled barrels........."  For some reason, I was sure that Kriegers were buttoned.

Bolt

You gotta come out and shoot man.  According to the forecast on weather.com, it is supposed to stop raining by 9:00am or so.  Just get on the 3rd or 4th relay and you should be good to go.

Rick B.

I mailed the package today.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@yahoo.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 20:54:48 (ZULU)

Hey, next time you got something to say, don't send us that raggedy hard assed old Scott Powers!  We love him to death ,but he's not used to dealing with us sensitive little Sniper babes! Tell him to say "May I, courtsey a couple of times and above all??? Above all mind you! Do not say, "I'd like your opinion?  But you ain't got a thing to say about it! " That's the kiss of Diplomatic death, assign him to Iraq where the going is easier before he takes on this diplomatic stuff hereabouts, after all, this IS a nest of Snipers!!

Whadyaexpect!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 21:13:32 (ZULU)

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 21:16:34 (ZULU)

OK, now this is the official board of the electronic game the Army is sposoring ("America's Army").  It's the phpBB format.

60,708 registered (my guess is teen-age and 20-something) users.  Unknown how many can pass a PT test or enlistment physical.

Seem like smart kids, though.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 21:17:15 (ZULU)

Match at Butner tomorrow is CANCELLED!!!!!!!!! Confirmed with Lt. at range office and a club officer. Wheeewwwwwww, my aching old bones and bad sinuses are extremely thankful. Plus, couldn't find andy little bitty raincoats for my boolits. Shoot, now I have to go dancin with Doughlady tonight.

Paul,

Weather.com best check their radar. On the weatherchannel, all I see is a giant green blob from Florida to New Yuck. Stay home and play with the baby's momma son, make some points for next year!

Bowcher,

When you gonna get the Old Fart Sniper Battalion going? Need to get overseas before it gets too cold man. Don't want to have to carry a bucket of BenGay with me!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 21:32:05 (ZULU)

"First and foremost, this is not your fXXking board, wannabe's. This board belongs to the .(translation real deals)..., not you. You dont have any RIGHT to be here. Your goddamn freedom of speech dont apply here either. You are simply tolerated here. You're not wanted here for the most part. The reason you are even allowed in here is so you can read what the .(real deals again) here have to say about the military and hopefully learn something before you go yourself. This is OUR house. Not YOURS. And you fXXking kids better get that straight real fast or I'm gonna start punting your young asses off this site."

Now see Scott, diplomacy in action...that's the way to gently remind us who's board it is and how much you appreciate your position. You just gotta be diplomatic and get the user's attention. Kinda like firing a couple of warning shots through their heads! :)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 21:38:37 (ZULU)

>>>We are expanding the Leupold scope models that can have Gen 2 reticles in the first focal plane.

Since the Gen 2 has been so well accepted in the 3.5X10 it made sense to attempt to modify the 4.5X14, 6.5X20 and 8.5X25 side focus scopes to permit installation of the Gen 2.  It took some creative engineering but has been done.

This should satisfy demand for powers from 3.5X to 25X in either 1 inch or 30mm tubes, 40mm or 50mm objectives with the constant subtension Gen 2.<<<

So,,  looks like these scopes combined with the MKIV 10X and 16X as well as the variable spotter just about finishes off the tactical line.

Scott,

I like the magnified reticles also.  If you're using a scope that only goes to 10X than I see your point, but it cetainly has an advantage on movers.  Where I like the front focal plane reticles is on scopes that have big magnification. (I know you're not a fan, but these are match rifles)  They allow me to mil with the extra magnification.  Mirage is tough here in the summer,, but days like today I could go to 60X if I wanted and had the option.  Having the ability to mil the use the hold off for wind at high mags and not having to worry about whether or not I'm on my cullminatiuon(sp??) mark is an advantage in my eye.  It's one less thing to think about when you have 1000 things to pay attension to and 10,000 things going through you mind.  Like you,, it's just my opinion.  Glad to see you're back posting.  Hope you stick around.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 21:39:11 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 21:45:59 (ZULU)

The name's Don, and my post about talking about shooting and "Oops" was just my sense of humor and a dig at those arguing about, well, just about everything, and the near total lack of discussion on anything related to rifles and shooting.

Chris,

Thanks for that post regarding Dick Thomas' expansion of the line of Leupold scopes able to receive a Gen 2 mil dot in the first focal plane.  Dick informed the Sniper Paradise and Sniper's Hide posters about this 2 days ago.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 22:55:20 (ZULU)

ARRGGGHH, Bolt off to the shop to start stripping scopes again!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:00:03 (ZULU)

LOL!!!!!!!!!

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:00:33 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:24:01 (ZULU)

The Butner match is cancelled.  What kind of fragernackle bullshit is that!  Rain?  Rain!!  I just cannot believe it.  I have shot matches in the rain there before.  On top of it all, it is doubtful that this match will be rescheduled.  Oh well.  Too bad I'm not the decision maker.

Sheeeeeeee-it!!!!!!!!

Guess I'll drink heavily.  A wise man once told me that there is treasure at the bottom of certain Miller Lite bottles.  I guess I'll begin my search.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@yahoo.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:26:51 (ZULU)

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:38:56 (ZULU)

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff Harmon <jharmon@sunrisetelecom.com>
McKinney, TX, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:43:08 (ZULU)

What was the final ticket count for the rifle raffle?  Also, can you post a link to the site with the pics?  Thanks.

S/F

Paul <paulcockerham@yahoo.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:49:02 (ZULU)

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:51:55 (ZULU)

Anyone searching for information, Listen to what these guys say.  I half ass did and got half assed results.  Here's why:

Last weekend I decided to glass bed my stock.  The first place I went to was the hot tips to check it out.  There was an in dept article on bedding, but I wanted a little more.  Reading thru the DR I read a post or two about the subject from Mike and Litto.  There explination was simple and to the point(should have followed it).  Not satisfied with that, I began a search on the net for all the info I could.  I found sever articles, but many of them conflicted.  Bed the first 2 inches, dont bed the first 2 inches, use Pam as a release agent, use wax, use blah blah blah.  Use devcon, use acraglass, use marine-tex.  

Finally I listened to Mike(undude) and went with marine tex.  However I chose pam as the release.  The first go-round(yes there were many) wasnt that great.  The bedding stuck to two small pieces on the front of the receiver and the tang didnt look great at all, not smooth.  This was due to the fact that I kept unscrewing the bolts for fear they would lock up.  When the bedding was cured I bolted the action in, loosened the front bolt up and could see the barrel lift.  No good

After sanding out all the bedding I started over this week.  However this week I was a tightwad and wanted to use only half of the 2oz container so I could have some left over.  Well thta turned into a mess trying to get half the stuff out.  Long story short, it wasnt mixed right and after 3 hrs when I removed the action it was still gooey.  That was REAL fun cleaning out.

Saturday.  Picked up 2 boxes of marine tex cause I figure I'll just screw it up again.  Well the 3rd time was a charm.  This time I used carnuba wax as the release and guess what, it worked.  After a few hrs I beat the hell outta the stock with the handle of my hammer and the action popped right out.  Not bedding stuck to the action at all an the bedding was smooth and clean.  

After all this, I may not be able to bed a riffle but I can damn sure UN-bed one.  I just wanted to post this to thank those who helped me out and to report the results.  I should have listened to you guys in the first place but that is what makes it a learning process.  To those who might consider attempting this in the future, it's a cake walk...after the 3rd time :)  

I took a bunch of pics of the action before bedding, you can see where the bedding block was rubbing against the action or lack there of.  I also have pics of the bedding process.  I will put them together in a how-to page later this week if anyone is interested.  Tommorow I am going to hit the range and see how much of a difference it actually made.  Pre-bedding it was shooting under 1MOA.

Take care.

Jared

Jared Hunter <jared@mc2studios.com>
San Antonio, Tx, - Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 23:54:36 (ZULU)

You have mail, no attachments.

Don,

Dick said he put the info over there, but many of the guys here don't visit SP or the Hide.  I didn't see if on the Hide today either as the thread hasn't been added to so it's lost unless you know what you're looking for.  SP still has the thread up and running.  If it was posted in a  format like this, I'd have been forced to read it and learn ;))

Boltster,

Premier won't be ready to do conversions for about 8 weeks so you gots time mang.  They also offer the power conversion for these scopes also.  Anyone need to mil at 50X with their rifle scope? ((;

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 00:26:10 (ZULU)

OK, we are there,   It is Italian Camo/Tan by a large margin (28-6)  going with the old style bolt assm. was 32-2.  so that is in as well.

I was able to call and get pricing on everything and have the following firm pricing:

Rifle complete Piler bedded and finished.   $2090.

Rifle complete, Not bedded or finished.  $1690.

(will cut stocks for pillars and supply them.)

The increase in price reflects the bolt assembly, shipping, sling and a slight error in estimating price of stock & actions.

All parts were at my cost, labor at my wholesale cost (to pay employes overhead).

Scopes,  I will need to know how many want scopes, only the 3.5x10 LR M1 or M3 will be offered.  

$570 with duplex retical

$655 with Mildot.

Looking at having them all complete by May. First ones will start shipping in March.  

Detail:

Remington 700 SA, 308 compleatly trued.

Rock Stainless 1-11 5R 24"

McMillan M40A1/HTG w/texture. Italian Camo, 2 studs front 1 rear, decel pad at 13 3/4 LOP

Badger Trigerguard, recoil lug, base, std rings.

Metal finish in tan (except rings)

Tactical Intervention Rock Sling. Tan.

Marked,   "Sniper Country linited Edition Rifle" "#xx of 50"

shipped to your FFL.

Serial #s will start at #10 first come first serve on #s.  

Deposit will be $800 due within 20 days.  (if this is a problem and you for sure want one call me) This deposit will purchase the most expensive items so that I can make a bulk purchace of all critical parts.  First deposits will have their choice of Ser# and first rifles to ship.  Please give a list of 5 #s so that if your requested ser # is taken I can assign your next favorite.

Send all Deposits to:

G.A. Precision

Attn: SC Rifle

1209 Swift St

North Kansas City, MO 64116  

Phone # (816) 221-1844

I will have a rifle in these colors compleated tomarro and will take pics and post links on the roster.

Lets Roll

George

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
N. Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 00:34:16 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 01:49:34 (ZULU)

You're wrong.  Dave Reed gave us the site to run, maintain, own, do-with-whatever-we-please.  We just had to acknowledge him, the way we do with pleasure.  He started this site, he deserves the credits.  But now it is ours.<<<

Marius, I said I'd apologize if I was wrong.  I apologize!

You may also bitchslap me as offered.  :-(

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 02:01:33 (ZULU)

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 02:14:42 (ZULU)

Know what you mean regarding Dick Thomas.  Damn, might as well have direct deposit from my pay check into his account.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 02:35:33 (ZULU)

George, man you are the HEAT!

Which one's the Italian pattern that you're gonna use?

Paul, my idea of fun does not include slinging up in full scout swim gear to shoot 70-odd rounds (besides, I still have to get a rough zero on the Palma-Fag rifle).

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 02:41:55 (ZULU)

Italian San Marco Marine Desert Pattern I believe.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 03:58:55 (ZULU)

Just starting up this effort and would like to hear any comments as to the need, specs, etc.  email prefered for opsec.

MAS <mark@spectrx.com>
Norcross, Ga, US of A - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 04:06:23 (ZULU)

You can find them at Ballisticard Systems site at:

http://www.ballisticards.com/trgt.htm

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 04:11:34 (ZULU)

I just checked my local listing because I didn't catch all the shows and found this out.  Tomorrow (Sunday) starting a 1500 hrs (West Coast time) till 1900 hrs they are apparently going to run the whole series back to back.  Damn now I got to see if I can get my VCR (that I haven't used in about 2 years) to work!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 04:28:13 (ZULU)

There is a picture of the Italian camo pattern George will use for the SC rifle at http://new.leveron.com/george/dcp_0127.jpg or click on my name below.  This is a pretty cool pattern . . . can't wait for my rifle :)

John L

John Leveron <john@leveron.com>
Mid-MO, U.S.A. - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 04:29:22 (ZULU)

TRGT data books and data book covers are also available at US Tactical Supply:

http://www.ustacticalsupply.com/datagear.shtml

(or click on my name below)

Has anyone found a better data book out there?  The only one I've used is the TRGT one...

Sir Wes - (and any other Oregon rifleshooters)

Looking for some more places to shoot, have a few spots out in the woods that allow 300 - 600 yards, but there are just too many damn trees for much more than that...have been thinking about going to Douglas Ridge Rifle Club.  Anyplace else in the Pacific NW worth driving to?  Am in the Newberg/McMinnville area...

Semper Fi

Brian <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 06:17:45 (ZULU)

While I don't post here as much as I did a few years ago I still browse when I can -I hang around ar15.com and tacticalforums - but as Sinister and others have said about those types of site there is no real community - straight info (or dis-info) passing.

I would love to get in on the SC Rifle but I have so little self directed trigger time these days that it seems a waste of a good rifle. - and most of my shooting that has been my sadly neglected pistol skills.  I shot >2700rds of 7.62mm Match in 2001, - this year 0 :(

Time with my son - and looking for another future ex-Mrs K oft GWN :) is taking time.  Mind you I have a great shot of my 4 1/2yr old shooting a suppressed C8 Carbine on auto (I was helping him hold it - relax)

Take Care

-Kevin

Editted due to Kevin's poor typing skill

Kevin of the Great White North <bolandks@shaw.ca>
Edmonton, AB, Canada - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 06:22:06 (ZULU)

spaghetti camo.....

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 08:15:59 (ZULU)

At first I kinda' blew it off, but the more I thought about it the more it seemed like a good idea.

There is a vast amount of knowledge available here and it is a shame not to share it with others.

What do you guys think?  Doesn't even have to be a book, mabye a newsletter or magazine or something.  I know that I have learned a bunch just from reading the Hot Tips, I can't imagine what could be learned by a more in depth effort.

I'm not savvy enough to know about profits or rights or that stuff, but I am sure somebody here is.

As far as I am concerned profit wouldn't be the motivation behind this.  

I may be way off with this deal, but it sounds like a good time.

Any thoughts?

Rich Johnson <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 09:26:31 (ZULU)

I just purchased a Savage 10 FP LE 2 .308 26" heavy barrel rifle. This is the rifle with the oversized bolt and heavy 26" barrel. It is not with the newly released adjustable trigger.

Rifle shoots 1/2 MOA during break in, using Federal 168 gr Gold Match and Hornady 168 gr Match.

Sold factory stock when rifle arrived, and replaced it with Choate Sniper Stock. Stock is extremely comfortable shooting prone. Added Harris 9-13" notched leg bipod, on-swivel, and topped off with Leupold 1 piece scope mount and a standard Leupold Vari X II, 3 x 9, duplex reticle, that also is new. I have under $1,000 in the set up, and I am shooting 1/2 MOA.

Bore sighting on the kitchen table (looking through bore on a target taped about 20 feet away, and then adjusting the scope reticle to match), I then go to 25 ' and am on paper and make adjustments. When I hit 2 in the same hole, I know I have it sighted well. I then moved to 100 yards and made adjustments and then hit 3 in a row in the x. Grouping at 1/2" is easily attainable. This is in the break in phase of only 25 rounds shot, with me cleaning between each round in the first 20 rounds, and then I clean every third round for the next 15-20 rounds, never using a brush but only Hoppes 9, and shortly will use also a copper remover.

The rig weighs in at 14 lbs. The factory trigger has not been replaced by me and breaks crisply at 5 1/2 lbs. You have a period of pull and then it breaks so that the shot can be a surprise. There is nothing wrong with this trigger. Of course you can replace it if you like.

There feels like no recoil, probably due to the heavy stock, making this gun extremely comfortable to shoot.

I have owned An Accuracy International AWP, and 2 PSS's.

Recommendation: Saveage is good to go. It is a good system.

I am of the opinion that this is a well designed and shooting rifle. I do not like the safety positioined where it is that takes thumb pressure to take off safe, for me, so that I must either change my grip to take the safety off or take the safety off when I lie down. I do the latter. The safety on the AI was in front of the trigger so you could take it off without changing your grip, but I paid $3800 for that gun so it should be better. For a rifle I paid wholesale for, the LE 2 with oversized bolt handle, I am surprised what the gun can do. The bolt does loosen up and is noticeably smoother after 25 rounds and improving, but of course not as glass smooth as the AI that was virtually silent in operation. The Savage is not as smooth and does make noise in operation.

All in all a surprising exceptional rifle, in my opinion.

I hope this helps some potential savage buyers to have more information.

Robert

tschiemer <jeepjeeplawyer@aol.com>
AR, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 13:12:24 (ZULU)

However, a word of caution about the MMSSS (Mature Male Sniper Support Section) selection process.  Some years back a good friend did a  test of the Mk 1, Mod 0 Nordic Bitch (5'2", 40+DD etc) previously mentioned and found a high level of support was required that was difficult to sustain during extended field ops. Pronounced drooping and whining led to an UnSat rating.  As a result, I would suggest consideration of various  Mods of the Mk 1 SFG (Sturdy Farm Girl).  Please be advised that this is NOT new nomenclature for the obsolete SPW (Strong Peasant Woman).  While this latter is well suited for extended field ops with minimal support(shade in summer, heat in winter, carry sniper gear all day), the MSSR (Male Sniper Satisfaction Rating) was unacceptably low.

On the other hand, isn't 20 the minimum number of test subjects necessary to eliminate random chance distorting the results?

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 13:47:26 (ZULU)

Me thinks that the Mk 1, Mod 0 Nordic Bitch (5'2", 40+DD etc) was employed in the wrong AO. This model is better employed covertly on a secluded beach somewhere in the Bahamas. Insertion in AO is reported to be smoother and quieter than with the later model versus Mk1, Mod 1. Mature Male Sniper Support equipment would include a 5 gallon bucket of Viagra, a 100 pounds or so of extremely high potency vitamins and multiple cases of Coors Lite. OPSEC would be of high importance!

The last Model of the Mk 1 SFG (Sturdy Farm Girl) I employed was most exceptional. Only problem that I had was in the dancing portion of the obstacle course. She was from the mountains and one leg was shorter than the other which led to a slightly wobbly appearance whilest doing the belly roll. I countered this problem by developing the BMSSH (Boot, Military, Sole System, High).

The SPW (Strong Peasant Woman) MOS usually does not last long. Once they find out about indoor toilets, hair dryers and deoderant, their maintenance becomes extremely high and economically unfeasible for a Sniper of moderate financial status.

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 14:30:31 (ZULU)

Remember, certain times of the lunar month, the term "Spotting" means different things to both the SPW and the Mk Mod 0 Nordic Bitch!

That is a great time for them to tackle the "Darby Queen!"

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Frozen, CT, Just Got Power Restored - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 15:06:01 (ZULU)

Since then, to be totally honest, I don't use anything but Shooters Choice on my sticks cuz I'm skeered.

I read the Hot Tips comments and am wondering if there is any new thinking since those were posted.

When and How should one clean with Sweets? How much, how long ?

What should be used in between the Sweets and Shooters Choice to neutralize the Sweets ? How much, how long ?

Shooters Choice still cool ?

Don't want to damage the Rock bbl that's coming on my AI.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 15:07:46 (ZULU)

you gots mail, no attachments.  

You ever decide what scope you're gonna grace this thing with?  Oh,, and is this an AI that'll have an Oak Ridge TN birth certificate?

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 16:04:35 (ZULU)

Brian the in Sain - Up to now we use both Shooter's Choice and Sweet's on our M24s.  We use Choice first and let it set for about five minutes and dry patch it out.  We then us Sweet's until the blue goes away and dry patch that out.  Sweet's is also left on the bolt face to aid in disolving the brass shavings that sometimes causees the ejector to stick in the down position.  The Sweet's prevents that build up of brass.  We then again use Choice until clean patch and dry patch that.  We leave neither in the barrel for storage.  As stated we are going to try the Strike Hold as it is about 1/4 the price of Shooter's Choice and seemed to work better.  It is also beating out Mil Tec, and few others that we have laying around to include the great Hoppe's.  The additional advantage of the Strike Hold is the protection it gives during storage that we now have give by using a light gun oil.  The biggest problem with Sweet's is that it will stain Nickle if left in contact for a prolonged period and I believe that Stainless is made with a nickel compound.  That is one of the basis for the ruined barrel problem.

Hold Hard guys

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 16:18:29 (ZULU)

After reading your first post, and reading the posts to you, and your replys to the members of this community, I have this to say.

1 - You have the social and communication skills of a Neanderthal.  There are much better, (and more effective) ways to communicate with the people on the DR (and life in general).

2 - Trying to ram something down this bunch's throat, and MAKE this bunch of bumz accept something is like trying to heard Cats!  It ain't never gonna happen.

It would have been far more effective if you would have said... "Hey guys, we're thinking of changing the software, cuz we are having some big problems with this one... what do you guys like and want to stay the same, and what would you like to add, or be different".

This simple paragraph would have avoided 3 days of bitter feelings, and 15 pages of wasted postings.

Would that have been so hard to do, or would being polite and considerate be beneath your self-elevated station in life.

You really screwed this pooch big time!

Also, your e-mail to me was rather crass.  I just deleted it, rather than answer it.

Next time, take your medications before posting... it'll make ALL our lives (and the lives of Sarge, Marius, PeteR and Ken) much easier.

-

Guys... if there needs to be some changes, then maybe it can be handled civily, with the needs of the bumz on the site, and the needs of Sarge, Marius, PeteR and Ken all put together,  This CAN be worked out with rational people (is that an oxymoron on the Duty Roster ;).

Lets hang tight, and dance with the guys that have been WITH US for all these years, and maybe we can HAVE IT ALL!...  Sarge, Marius, PeteR and Ken are NOT the enemy... I believe it CAN be worked out.

Just don't pay Scott no mind... he's just an unhappy camper that can't find his medications.  Other than selling stuff to us at higher prices than you can get on the internet, he has little interest in SniperCountry.

His interests have moved on from shooting, and spends all his time on motorcicle sites.  You can count his posts on SC over the last few years on the fingers of one hand, and they have all been to sell over-stocked stuff on the PX, or rage-rants about the software...

-

Dean...

I agree with Pat(HA!), Ken M, and the others... you still don't know what this site is all about.  But hang around, you'll get it in time.

By the way... about all those experts that are out there waiting to to move in... tell them to come on over now, we always like new munchies to chew on ;)).

-

SlyFox...

Mang, it's bad enuff that I have to get Chinee' sneekers for Ruggus Rattus, but commie combat grear??? Gimme "un friggin' breako".

Thanks for the heads up...

Go Eagle or London Bridge.

-

Critter...

Excellent post!!!

-

Marius...

How do you make those BIG LETTERS... I gots to know ;)

-

Paul...

I think Hart and Krieger are cut rifling.

-

Rick-ster...

"Strike Hold"... I don't care how it cleans... what does it SMELL like ;)).

If it don't smell good, it don't get on my bench!

>"Sweet's is also left on the bolt face to aid in disolving the brass shavings that sometimes causees the ejector to stick in the down position."<

This problem is caused by Remington's use of dull drills to drill the ejector holes... I see it on about 10% of the Remingtons I get through here.

If you look close, you can often see a little rim protruding up off the bolt face surface at the edge of the ejector hole.  It is this little rim that scrapes brass off the case as the action is opened, and the rim moves across the fired case head.  The shaved brass builds up and jams the ejector.

Have your armorers put a TINY bevel (just a hundredth of an inch) on the edges of the ejector hole, and this problem goes away PERMENENTLY, and you never have to worry about cleaning the ejectors again.  I do this to ALL Remingtons I work on.

-

'yote Bate...

You continually make me laugh out loud.  You go gettum, ya' ol' cootie ;))

-

Bolt...

>"fragernackle???"<

"Farcle"!!

-

Brian...

>"LITO / GEORGE /ANYBODY:  When I was a Sniper pup, I ruined a Gary Schneider barrel by inadvertently mixing Sweets and Shooters Choice."<

Do you know what a new Schneider barrel is going for these days... Badd puppy!

>"Forgot to swab out the Sweets and hit it with a few patches of SC. A pretty expensive oops. Since then, to be totally honest, I don't use anything but Shooters Choice on my sticks cuz I'm skeered.  I read the Hot Tips comments and am wondering if there is any new thinking since those were posted. When and How should one clean with Sweets? How much, how long ? What should be used in between the Sweets and Shooters Choice to neutralize the Sweets? How much, how long? Shooters Choice still cool ?  Don't want to damage the Rock bbl that's coming on my AI."<

Guy... I don't use nothing in my barrels that can hurt them... I remember when all the new cleaners came out... I tried a few and they didn't offer much over what I was using, and I liked what I was using.

Then I started reading the warnings about... "Don't use XX with YY, and don't use KK with ZZ, and NEVER let AA come in contact with RR, and never let QQ stay in the barrel more than 10 minutes!".

At that point, I just stopped reading that crap, and stuck with the one that I liked (#9).  I'm not saying that there aren't faster cleaners, but I know that I can plug the barrel, and fill it with #9 and leave it in there for a week, and it won't hurt anything. It cleans fairly quick, and it smells G-R-E-A-T!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 16:20:20 (ZULU)

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 16:35:31 (ZULU)

Well said I completely agree with you.

Now how often has that happened?

Mike Miller

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 16:54:05 (ZULU)

** Here's to your Dad, Calvin **

--

From a Military Doctor: Written By CPT Stephen R. Ellison, M.D.

I am a doctor specializing in Emergency Medicine in the Emergency Departments of the only two military Level One-trauma centers. They are both in San Antonio, TX and they care for civilian Emergencies as well as military personnel. San Antonio has the largest military retiree population in the world living here, because of the location of these two large military medical centers. As a military doctor in training for my specialty, I work long hours and the pay is less than glamorous.

One tends to become jaded by the long hours, lack of sleep, food, family, contact and the endless parade of human suffering passing before you. The arrival of another ambulance does not mean more pay, only more work.

Most often, it is a victim from a motor vehicle crash. Often it is a person of dubious character who has been shot or stabbed. With our large military retiree population, it is often a nursing home patient.

Even with my enlisted service and minimal combat experience in Panama, prior to medical school, I have caught myself groaning when the ambulance brought in yet another sick, elderly person from one of the local retirement centers that cater to military retirees. I had not stopped to think of what citizens of this age group represented.

I saw "Saving Private Ryan." I was touched deeply. Not so much by the carnage in the first 30 minutes, but by the sacrifices of so many. I was touched most by the scene of the elderly survivor at the graveside, asking his wife if he'd been a good man. I realized that I had seen these same men and women coming through my Emergency Dept. and had not realized what magnificent sacrifices they had made. The things they did for me and everyone else that has lived on this planet since the end of that conflict are priceless.

Situation permitting, I now try to ask my patients about their experiences. They would never bring up the subject without the inquiry. I have been privileged to an amazing array of experiences, recounted in the brief minutes allowed in an Emergency Dept. encounter. These experiences have revealed the incredible individuals I have had the honor of serving in a medical capacity, many on their last admission to the hospital.

There was a frail, elderly woman who reassured my young enlisted medic, trying to start an IV line in her arm. She remained calm and poised, despite her illness and the multiple needle-sticks into her fragile veins. She was what we call a "hard stick." As the medic made another attempt, I noticed a number tattooed across her forearm. I touched it with one finger and looked into her eyes. She simply said "Auschwitz." Many of later generations would have loudly and openly berated the young medic in his many attempts. How different was the response from this person who'd seen unspeakable suffering.

Also, there was this long retired Colonel, who as a young officer had parachuted from his burning plane over a Pacific Island held by the Japanese. Now an octogenarian, his head cut in a fall at home where he lived alone. His CT scan and suturing had been delayed until after midnight by the usual parade of high priority ambulance patients. Still spry for his age, he asked to use the phone to call a taxi, to take him home, then he realized his ambulance had brought him without his wallet. He asked if he could use the phone to make a long distance call to his daughter who lived 7 miles away. With great pride we told him that he could not, as he'd done enough for his country and the least we could do was get him a taxi home, even if we had to pay for it ourselves. My only regret was that my shift wouldn't end for several hours, and I couldn't drive him myself.

I was there the night MSgt. Roy Benavidez came through the Emergency Dept. for the last time. He was very sick. I was not the doctor taking care of him, but I walked to his bedside and took his hand. I said nothing. He was so sick, he didn't know I was there. I'd read his Congressional Medal of Honor citation and wanted to shake his hand. He died a few days later.

The gentleman who served with Merrill's Marauders, the survivor of the Bataan Death March, the survivor of Omaha Beach, the 101 year old World War I veteran, the former POW held in frozen North Korea, the former Special Forces medic now with non-operable liver cancer, the former Viet Nam Corps Commander. I remember these citizens.

I may still groan when yet another ambulance comes in, but now I am much more aware of what an honor it is to serve these particular men and women. I am angered at the cut backs, implemented and proposed, that will continue to decay their meager retirement benefits.

I see the President and Congress who would turn their back on these individuals, who've sacrificed so much to protect our liberty. I see later generations that seem to be totally engrossed in abusing these same liberties, won with such sacrifice.

It has become my personal endeavor, to make the nurses and young enlisted medics aware of these amazing individuals when I encounter them in our Emergency Dept. Their response to these particular citizens has made Me think that perhaps all is not lost in the next generation.

My experiences have solidified my belief that we are losing an incredible generation, and this nation knows not what it is losing. Our uncaring government and ungrateful civilian populace should all take note. We should all remember that we must "Earn this."

--

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 17:11:19 (ZULU)

thanks

robert

tschiemer <jeepjeeplawyer@aol.com>
AR, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 17:34:16 (ZULU)

CHRIS: My AI is coming from England. Getting it through Stacey Blankenship. Damn nice fella. Ordered it with a Picatinny rail which is a non standard item on an AWP. It will have a 24" bbl on it when it hits the States but they are going to put a big fat 20" Rock on it when it gets to Tennessee.

I am also trying to scam four AEs for me and my Snipers. Trying to get 'em donated through cop friendly businesses, refineries. Currently, we each got four different sticks. All Remmys but all different.

Will go with Loopy LRs/Gen II dots on my personal AWP and also the PD AEs if it works out.

We just lost four of our best Team guys. One to a high ranking promotion, one to law school, one to a new baby (#7 - I'd eat my pistol) and one to injury. Another just lost his Mom and is taking a temporary leave of abscence to get her affairs in order. These guys are irreplaceable. I mean one monkey don't stop a show, but four .5 experienced guys at once !  Damn.

Our PD doesn't have the pool of people a place like Houston does to pull from. We had try outs last week. Most new cops nowadays don't even want to play SWAT (sounds too much like SWEAT). They don't want to have to work for anything and think somebody owes 'em everything. Hell we used to train for free (still do), on the weekends and buy our own gear for Chrissakes. If we didn't have it, couldn't beg, borrow or build it, then we just didn't get it.

These new cops, fresh off mommas tit and right out of college that ain't never had to travel to make a living and had some foreman kicking sand down their neck, in a ditch for ten hours, in the Texas summer sun ain't got a damn clue.

That no initiative thing really gets to me. That and nutless bosses. Having a tough time with it. Being a SELF STARTER is a prerequisite, dammit. We'd rather work short than get stuck with a booger eater.

rant off

PS: Ya'll see them boys low crawling on concrete on the Hist. Ch. ?

Not to sound like a puss but, that shit sucks in the summer time.

Oh well, if it was easy, I' guess they'd have women and kids doin' it ... he he

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 17:43:54 (ZULU)

That book idea, is a good way to capture some of the history and soul of this perhaps. Critter, don't run off! We need folk (critters) like you.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 17:49:53 (ZULU)

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 18:26:02 (ZULU)

Another of my infrequent posts...seems work is the priority. Shooting second. I KNOW...get my priorities straight!

SC format: LEAVE IT ALONE! Other sites seem to have a "wanna be" characteristic. This one feels like home. Probably because we have a large number of experts willing to share. Most take a ribbing and keep coming back for more. Knowing, it's just that. If you get your feelings hurt this is NOT the place to be. The site is best desribed as "A Band of Brothers". Enough said.

Bore cleaners: Have never ruined a barrel. Headed warning of the more knowledgable. Use Hoppe's #9, Shooter's Choice (when needed), and almost never Sweet's 7.62. Hoppe's brings me back to my youth, and as a general bore cleaner, has yet to be improved upon, IMHO. Was a bit better when it had the benzine in it, though.

New stick: Picked up a used(like new) Sako 995 in .338 Lapua. New 29" Pac-Nor flutted tube, McMillan A2 stock, Sako mounts, and a Luppie MK IV 16X, whole thing is finished in Black "T". Got it for a song (ok, I did some dancing, too). Will be shooting it Tuesday and report back.

All for now, my friends, duty calls.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 18:28:45 (ZULU)

Apology accepted, and no slapping necessary.  My arm's not that long.

You knwo what we call the English here in South Africa?  The ones with their other fott still in ol'e Mother England?

Bill on the other hand might need some slapping, and then maybe not if I look at his last post.  I'll take his previous remark as one of the off times in the marriage.  And the one before that.  And before that?  Not even reading further right now...

'Lito,

Those BIG letters are reserved for Ken and me.  I edit the actual post  - direct, not via the script you have to work with.  So, you knows, but it no helps :-)

More from me later - it has been a full week, and even fuller weekend.  Wife got ordained Friday night, and gave her inaugural sermons in the new congregation today.  So we're tired.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 18:36:35 (ZULU)

There may be a better way, but this seems to work.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 18:43:42 (ZULU)

Brian, I think the word you are looking for is entitlement.  I know we talked about this before but Generation X has not been good for law enforcement and listening to those who know, it has not been good for the military either.  It seems like a lot of my younger guys feel that they are owed something and shouldn't have to give to get it.  FWIW, I take some comfort that there are still some who are dedicated to these lives and who have the good juju to make 1st class citizens and who WANT to serve and protect.  Whether it is in LE or the Military, or simply having strong ethics and a sense of integrity and being willing to pass those along in their chosen lives.  I am also comforted that there are people like us that still get up everyday and try to help each other.  "Heart" sums it up real good.

Thanks for the info on Blackhawk.  Big dissapointment.

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 18:46:31 (ZULU)

If/when the DR changes, I'll stay, lurk and learn.  Hell, I may even post if I can make soda come our someone's nose again!  Besides, I got laid off Thursday, and in between lookin' for a job, I'll be lurkin' and learnin' here. BTW: I'm an electronics engineer with a strong RF broadcast/CATV background, and I've held a TSBI and a CTSA. (In case anyone needs to know)

SharpsShooter <superuser@charter.net>
Altoona, PA, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 19:14:38 (ZULU)

On the morning of May 2, 1968, Benavidez, a staff sergeant with the Army's Special Forces -- the Green Berets -- heard the cry "get us out of here" over his unit's radio while at his base in Loc Ninh, South Vietnam. He also heard "so much shooting, it sounded like a popcorn machine."

The call for aid came from a 12- man Special Forces team -- 3 Green Berets and 9 Montagnard tribesmen -- that had been ambushed by North Vietnamese troops at a jungle site a few miles inside Cambodia.

Benavidez jumped aboard an evacuation helicopter that flew to the scene. "When I got on that copter, little did I know we were going to spend six hours in hell," he later recalled.

After leaping off the helicopter, Benavidez was shot in the face, head and right leg, but he ran toward his fellow troops, finding four dead and the others wounded.

He dragged survivors aboard the helicopter, but its pilot was killed by enemy fire as he tried to take off, and the helicopter crashed and burned. Benavidez got the troops off the helicopter, and over the next six hours, he organized return fire, called in air strikes, administered morphine and recovered classified documents, although he got shot in the stomach and thigh and hit in the back by grenade fragments. He was bayoneted by a North Vietnamese soldier, whom he killed with a knife. Finally, he shot two enemy soldiers as he dragged the survivors aboard another evacuation helicopter.

When he arrived at Loc Ninh, Benavidez was unable to move or speak. Just as he was about to be placed into a body bag, he spit into a doctor's face to signal that he was still alive and was evacuated for surgery in Saigon.

Benavidez was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross in 1968, but a subsequent recommendation from his commanding officer that he receive the Medal of Honor -- the military's highest award for valor -- could not be approved until a witness confirmed his deeds.

That happened in 1980, when Brian O'Connor, the Green Beret who had radioed the frantic message seeking evacuation, was found in the Fiji Islands. O'Connor told how Benavidez had rescued eight members of his patrol despite being wounded repeatedly. Reagan presented the Medal of Honor to Benavidez at the Pentagon on Feb. 24, 1981.

Shortly before Memorial Day 1983, Benavidez came forward to say that the Social Security Administration planned to cut off disability payments he had been receiving since he retired from the Army as a master sergeant in 1976. He still had two pieces of shrapnel in his heart and a punctured lung and was in constant pain from his wounds.

A White House spokesman said that Reagan was "personally concerned" about Benavidez's situation, and 10 days later Health and Human Services Secretary Margaret Heckler said the disability reviews would become more "humane and compassionate."

Soon afterward, wearing his Medal of Honor, Benavidez told the House Select Committee on Aging that "the administration that put this medal around my neck is curtailing my benefits."

Benavidez appealed the termination of assistance to an administrative law judge, who ruled in July 1983 that he should continue receiving payments.

Sorry for the long band width, but I felt people should know that we had heroes that served in Vietnam, while college punks were demonstrating here in the States.  I salute all that served in Vietnam.

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 19:19:49 (ZULU)

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 21:19:33 (ZULU)

    I wondered about the compatibility problems between stainless barrels and cleaning solvents containing a high ammonia content, especially after I purchased a new Colt CAR3 Accurized Elite rifle with a Wilson 24" Varmint barrel factory installed. When I opened the owners manual a loose page fell out that contained a strong warning about the use of ammonia cleaners in this barrel!

    I've always used #9, but like Wes, thought it was a better product when it had the benzine. I keep a container of Sweet's handy for use on the occaisonal copper-loaded gunshow piece I pick up and try to rehab. I've found that with proper cleaning from the get-go I've had no need for the high-powered copper solvents on any of my quality rifles. Nowadays, I go with the recommendation of the barrel maker and riflebuilder, and have found that Shooters Choice used alone as recommended on my Terry Cross/Obermeyer stick is all that I need, except that I saturate the last patch (after the dry one) with alcohol as mentioned a while back by 'lito. I still use #9 on all the sticks that I've used it on for years.

   Now to the point of my post. I found out that not only does the Stainless Steel alloy used for barrels contain nickel as Rick mentioned, it also contains varying amounts of copper. I checked around and found out something that many of you will find interesting! You old farts like me will remember when stainless was first introduced on a large scale in civilian firearms. Remember how much of a premium we had to pay for stainless back then? And remember the first time you held a bright blue S&W wheelgun up next to its newly introduced stainless cousin?

  I learned that the metallurgy of those days hadn't advanced to the point that it would allow the machinability needed to turn out parts as quickly and with as fine a finish as chromemoly steel. This property caused the rough finish, and more important to the bean-counters, it caused the production line to slow down. They couldn't machine the stainless as quickly, and they had to sharpen or replace the tool bits much more often. Hence the higher costs. The metallurgists learned that by alloying with nickel and copper the machinability of stainless could be improved, to the point where it's almost taken over as the material of choice. Great. But now the solvent manufacturers have got us cleaning a barrel that's alloyed with copper WITH A STRONG (AMMONIA) COPPER SOLVENT. That's why they tell you not to leave it in the barrel for over several minutes, ar to let it mix with another solvent. Those of you that have had this misfortune have witnessed the pitting that's caused by the ammonia leaching the copper out of the barrel steel!

If I'm wrong, get out the rolled-up newspaper, 'lito.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 21:20:25 (ZULU)

a body bag, he spit into a doctor's face to signal that he was still alive<<

My kind of guy! I bet right after the doc wiped the spit from his face, he yelled "medic (or nurse)! this man is still alive.... do something!"  

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 21:46:43 (ZULU)

Bore cleaning;

 Should I use copper solvent first or powder solvent? Does it really matter which is first? I seem to have the same results either way.

Book;

 I like the idea. What would it consist of or be limited too? My only expertise is in water treatment, so I probably couldn't contribute anything. Unless, of course, someone wanted to know about drinking water.

 I think a book compiled by several people would be more informative compared to one done by one person. I'd buy it.

              LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 22:35:32 (ZULU)

Fragernackle is.....well I don't know other than to say that it is a clean adjective used in place of ones favorite expletive(s).

lito'

I will have to check, but I believe Hart's are buttoned.

S/F

Paul <paulcockerham@yahoo.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 22:39:46 (ZULU)

Thanks for sharing the info about Sgt. Benavidez's actions during his service to our country. Too many of these guys have been forgotten. I remember the stinking hippies that protested the war they knew nothing about.

Thanks,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, KY, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 22:51:36 (ZULU)

Thank you both for taking the time to post those stories. Those little gems remind me of my Dad and how much he's missed.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 23:00:19 (ZULU)

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 23:02:09 (ZULU)

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 00:41:59 (ZULU)

CDC - glad to see you back.... younz are all welcome home here...

Raffle status: I've been outa town for 3 days... whhhheeeeewww!! man I have a mountain of payments to process. Hang in there. I should get all of them acknowleged this evening.

take care - get your payment in if you havent already.

My goal is to have the drawing this coming weekend.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, us of a - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 01:13:07 (ZULU)

OK! I tried the 175's at a kilometer finally today . The 31", 29" 34". into 15 degree head wind 12mph .(5shot groups). Shooting way lower than the 168's. To be understood.

Put in the A-max Hornadys. Groups 10, 8, 8.5". Something to be said for VLD bullets. The short barrel at a kilo just won't do the 175's above the barrier.

Benavidez; mucho hombre! I had never heard of him that I know of. Gee's. It's a shame what this country's bureaucrazys do to brave men!

"A Band of Brothers". (Kinda like the Youngers or the James Bros' )

but a good analogy!

Brian; Oh to be 20 years younger! OR maybe 10...I saw the concrete thing.   OH regretS! You can't do it all over though I guess, SWAT the ultimate self punishment....

I'd have loved it then, hell, i'd love it now! But I'd be a burden.  

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 01:50:11 (ZULU)

One of the reasons for using the cleaners as we do is that we have more rounds down our barrels in a year then most shooters have in theirs' in a lifetime.  We bore scope our rifles regularly to check for wear and damage.  This is done so as not to give a student a weapon that is about to burn out, with 6 inches of alligator skin in the throat and little of no rifling, or is damaged and thus cause him problems while shooting.  I do not mind failing a guy who can't shoot but I be damed if a fail a guy because we gave him a bad stick.  We have never found barrel damge from our cleaning and we get about 7000 to 9000 rounds before burn out.  I had a MacMillian polygon go for 13000 before she threw the odd flyer and then it went blewy at about 13500.  It was stainless and cleaned as described above in 86 and 87.  The only damage I have ever seen was discoloring from Sweet's left in the barrel over night.  It jelled blue and stained the barrel.  Barrel still shot fine.

Lito - It smells OK to me and most of the other guys but two of the guys thinks it stinks so bad it gives them a headache.  Just to comitt hereasy I think Hoppe's stinks worse then Sweet's.  :-)

On the bolt faces, we regularly remove the ejector and smooth the opening.  Problem is two fold, one, some of our students bring their unit weapons and it hasn't been done, so we do it for them but even then our guns will start cutting brass again due to the primer "ring" caused from all of the rounds we fire which is problem two.  After a couple of classes of 1400 to 1500 each class the ring gets ragged and cuts brass again.  We get the students used to doing the Sweet's as PM so they do not have a "surprise problem" at a very bad time.

Last quick word of warning on the Sweet's, Don't put it on a Bronze bristle bore brush.  It has been known to eat the suckers, hmmm maybe the brass in bronze?  Oh well.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 01:52:44 (ZULU)

I love the smell of Sweet's in the morning.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 02:18:41 (ZULU)

How do we get an archive like this?  Barrel wear.

Is this on the Roster anywhere?

http://gamma.nic.fi/~takilta/selosteet/annual.htm

I've read on shooters.com that "GM Top Engine Cleaner" is the exact same chemical composition as Shooter's Choice but a whole lot cheaper in the gallon can.

I've read where you're not supposed to mix your cleaning regimen of Shooter's with Sweet's or anything with ammonia (like Butch's, Hoppe's Copper Solvent, Barnes Solvent, etc) even with a dry-patching in between to keep from forming binaries.  I choose to use the Shooter's for powder fouling, followed by JB (to scrub with abrasive and get out the Shooter's) followed by either Butch's or Sweet's if I can still see visible copper fouling at the muzzle or if patches keep coming out green using the Shooter's.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 02:22:12 (ZULU)

Let's get those remaining payments in folks....

Im outa here and in the sack...

SemperFi

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, us of a - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 02:46:07 (ZULU)

Hoppe's #9, patch and brush and patch to dry.  Sweet's to check for greenies. No longer than 20 min soak.  #9 to clean out the Sweet's and kill it.  Until clean.  Sometimes dry w/ alcohol. (I was listenin' way back then too, 'Lito).  Then a nice clear gun oil.  Outer's I believe.  Wipe out the oil w/ #9 until dry before next session.  CBS NEVER a problem.

You can kill the Shooter' Choice and other nasty's on your bronze brush as mentioned by others above or w/ a swish in a bottle of alcohol.  Brushes last a hell of a lot longer.  

Spud, Out

Dennis B. Queen <usmcspud@msn.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:18:14 (ZULU)

     I just read an e- mail from Steve from Joisey who enlightened me about the composition of the 416R Stainless Steel as used in barrelmaking. Steve kindly informed me that this grade of steel contains NO copper or nickel alloy in its composition. There goes my misinformation. I'm truly sorry for misleading any of you on this subject, and promise to be much more thourough in checking my facts in the future.

     I'm not attempting to pass the buck and blame my source. I and I alone am responsible. No excuses. But I AM going into this in depth to try to explain the stainless steel/copper solvent/ammonia phenomenon.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:33:33 (ZULU)

Sniper Country Rifle

OK, we are there,   It is Italian Camo/Tan by a large margin (28-6)  going with the old style bolt assm. was 32-2.  so that is in as well.

I was able to call and get pricing on everything and have the following firm pricing:

Rifle complete Piler bedded and finished.   $2090.

Rifle complete, Not bedded or finished.  $1690.

(will cut stocks for pillars and supply them.)

The increase in price reflects the bolt assembly, shipping, sling and a slight error in estimating price of stock & actions.

All parts were at my cost, labor at my wholesale cost (to pay employes overhead).

Scopes,  I will need to know how many want scopes, only the 3.5x10 LR M1 or M3 will be offered.  

$570 with duplex retical

$655 with Mildot.

Looking at having them all complete by May. First ones will start shipping in March.  

Detail:

Remington 700 SA, 308 compleatly trued.

Rock Stainless 1-11 5R 24"

McMillan M40A1/HTG w/texture. Italian Camo, 2 studs front 1 rear, decel pad at 13 3/4 LOP

Badger Trigerguard, recoil lug, base, std rings.

Metal finish in tan (except rings)

Tactical Intervention Rock Sling. Tan.

Marked,   "Sniper Country linited Edition Rifle" "#xx of 50"

shipped to your FFL.

Serial #s will start at #10 first come first serve on #s.  

Deposit will be $800 due within 20 days.  (if this is a problem and you for sure want one call me) This deposit will purchase the most expensive items so that I can make a bulk purchace of all critical parts.  First deposits will have their choice of Ser# and first rifles to ship.  Please give a list of 5 #s so that if your requested ser # is taken I can assign your next favorite.

Send all Deposits to:

G.A. Precision

Attn: SC Rifle

1209 Swift St

North Kansas City, MO 64116  

Phone # (816) 221-1844

I will have a rifle in these colors compleated tomarro and will take pics and post links on the roster.

Lets Roll

George

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:45:34 (ZULU)

Dave:  Only dry patching between Shooter's and Sweet's scared me a little.  That's why I use the MEK to take the Shooter's out of the barrel and chamber.  Only takes a sec.

JR:  Unless my CRAFT is acting up, it seems like you said that removing all the green from the bore was overrated.  What are your thoughts on using Sweet's until the patches come out white?

On this CBS thing:  Before shooting, all I do is dry patch the oil from the bore.  Is using Hoppe's better?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:51:44 (ZULU)

You posted:

"I've read where you're not supposed to mix your cleaning regimen of Shooter's with Sweet's or anything with ammonia (like Butch's, Hoppe's Copper Solvent, Barnes Solvent, etc) even with a dry-patching in between to keep from forming binaries"

I'm not sure that's true as Shooter's Choice say to use thier copper cleaner after useing the standard Shooter's Choice and thier copper cleaner has mucho amonia in it. Maybe it's just with Sweet's and something they put in it that reacts with Shooter's Choice. I use Butch's and then if I really need some copper cleaning I use Shooter's Choice Copper cleaner. It works well.

Brian Sain,

How exactly was the barrel ruined by using the Shooter's Choice and Sweet's? What damage was done? I've heard this info passed around for years in the shooting comunity but to tell you the truth you are the first person that actual had it happen that I personally have heard of having it happen. I'm not doubting you but I would like to know what exactly happened for my own knowledge. Thanks.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 03:59:13 (ZULU)

Rob Opp

Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 04:23:48 (ZULU)

When growing up my father never talked about WWII or what he did.  I remember I was about 10-12 when my mom was cleaning out their dresser and there was a long black case about 7" long and maybe 4" wide sitting on top that I had never seen.  When I asked about it mom said it was my dads and was something from the war he kept.

My father died on May 29, 2000, my 53rd birthday.  One of his close friends from their church was doing the eulogy and wanted to know about dads Army service.  Mom said there was a green steel box in the bottom of the dresser with all dads papers in it and I went and got it.  There was the insurance papers and house deed, some old coins, a pile of letters from 1942-1945 from mom to dad that mom snatched quickly and said "I didn't know he kept these" and in the bottom a brown leather folder rubber banded to that black box I'ed seen some 40 years before.

The folder contained some post cards from Paris, a few French Franks and dads service papers.  We went over them gleaming dads Units he served in, dates of service and such.  Towards the bottom a space was designated "Awards" and listed 4 or 5 of the usual medals you'ed expect from WWII service.  At the end of the listing was "Bronze Star/w "V" device".  From my service in the "Green Machine" I knew what it ment and quickly opened the black case.  There were the other medals and a "Bronze Star" with a letter "V" pined to it and the written citation telling why it was awarded to him.

On "D" Day there was little communication between the U.S. and British forces because all the main commo equipment was still on ships.  When they took "Charborg" (sp?) for the port facilities it would by days before the ships could be unloaded.  Without commo between the forces they were in big trouble.  Dads commo team found out the location of a Germen commo post and took it out and captured 9 prisoners and the German commo equipment.  They brought it back and patched it togeather with what little commo they had and established communications between the British and U.S. Forces on the beach.  

Once Paris was taken they established the largest telephone center in Europe (again with some captured equipment) and maintained it for 45 days until the main Communications Battalion arrived and took over.  Dads team was a "Repair Team" and not an "Instalation Team" so they did all this without the tools and equipment an "Instalation Team" would have had.

The only thing my father ever said about WWII was "We had a job to do and we did it".  The only thing he asked me when I came home from "Nam" was "Was it as bad as I saw on TV?" I nodded yes and he asked "Did you do what you had to do?" I nodded yes and he never asked or said anything about it again.  Dad never joined a VFW or anything like that.  He didn't want any kind of "Military" funereal, though I did make sure the cased Flag with the medals pinned to it was atop his casket and it now sits on top of my desk.  

I sometimes wish we could have swaped "war" stories over a few beers, but my dad was never like that.  Maybe it would have made things easier, then again maybe it would have made some things harder to forget.

Sorry to have taken up so much bandwidth.  I'm just proud of my dad.

TreverSlyFox <treverslyfox@greendragoninn.zzn.com>
Houston, Missouri, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 11:57:19 (ZULU)

I'm sure your Dad was proud of you as well. He sounds like so many great men, honored briefly and quickly forgotten by all but a few. A shame. Any man can be a father but it takes a real man to be a DAD. Even though I did not know him, I, for one, am proud of your Dad as well.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 13:07:00 (ZULU)

First of all, you have to eval what your starting with !!

If its a factory gun, break that barrel in as good as you know how, and after all the work, IT MAY ALWAYS get fouled horribly with copper...if its a hand lapped true custom barrel, shoot 5 - clean, repeat, repeat, put it to work !!!

I've used just about everything out there to clean a rifle, even the "horrible" stuff called Blue Goop that I mix myself with 28%ammonia.....the best damn stuff out there to rid a barrel of copper and truth be known - I still use it !!!!

The best proceedure so far, is scrub the dirty barrel first with Shooter's Choice Black Powder Gel...it works like a top to get that carbon out....then patch that gunk out and then brush about 10 complete strokes with Butches Bore Shine(adding to the brush every 3 strokes)...patch.....Next, send a tight patch( I use the Dewey type jags so I can wrap my patch around them) saturated with Sweets to and fro through the barrel a few times....if you detect blue - alcohol barrel dry and brush with BBS again.....repeat the Sweets till clean........always neturalize the ammonia with alcohol then dry (I've also used lighter fluid).....when I'm all finished, I put a drop or two of Penephite(Kroil and graphite) and run through the bore.......

Sometimes its also necessary to "short stroke" the throat and muzzle area to rid them of the deadly carbon ring.....IOSSO on a nylon brush works wonders......borescoping has showed that this needs to be done every 3 cleaning on one of my competition guns.....

As far as I know, GM Top Engine Cleaner is an "ingredient" in Shooters Choice and also Butches Bore shine....it is a carbon reducer.....

In regard to ammonia products, I use them religously in every rifle I own.....and I worry more about the effects on "self" than I do to a barrel !!  The tests I've done showed that many of the tales concerning ammonia and barrels are not conclusive and are in my opinion myths.....then again that's MY opinion only !!!

Now...be easy, I've got a bad back !!!

Back to the hole I call "office"

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 13:10:14 (ZULU)

Now here is were I get real misty eyed. Last week either on Veterans Day or the day after I get a Veterans Day card ...from my DAD!

On the inside of the card he wrote:

"We don't often express our feelings about such things but we do appreciate all the things you gave up to serve your country!"

This from a combat veteran of WW2 to ME...yeah sure I'm his son but I NEVER did anything in 20 years of Army service to equal what his generation did during those miserable years.

The card holds a VERY special spot on my desk!!

Looking for a Kleenex even now!

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 13:10:37 (ZULU)

>"That's why they tell you not to leave it in the barrel for over several minutes, ar to let it mix with another solvent. Those of you that have had this misfortune have witnessed the pitting that's caused by the ammonia leaching the copper out of the barrel steel!

If I'm wrong, get out the rolled-up newspaper, 'lito."<

ALAN... I'll fess up something that few know, and that I'm ashamed of.  Back in the 60's I bought a brand new 40-XB/R in 308 with the then brand new stainless barrel, Redfield international sights, the whole magilla.

It was a lot of money then (I grossed $71 a week) but I saw it and fell in love... I HAD TO HAVE IT!  I was never much if a position shooter, but I liked to get out and shoot irons from time to time.  Back in 1980, I had to move to Connecticut, and the move was a long one... took three months to get the stuff from the old place to the new one (I had my own business to move, too).  Well... for whatever reason that I still don't know, the 40-XB/R didn't get cleaned, it got pack up and moved to the new digs, and just sat in the basement.

I didn't get to it for a while... like 18 years!  I dug it out 4 years ago, and to my horror, the barrel actually had white and blue fur growing all inside of it, like you would see on moldy bread or cheese.  I was heart broke!  I was convinced that the barrel was ruined.

I scrubbed the barrel with #9 for a day, but it still looked like shit.  So I plugged the barrel with one of those thingies from Midway, filled the barrel with #9, and sat it on it's butt... for three weeks.  During that time, I would top up the #9 as it evaporated (or got chemically consumed).

Then I emptied the barrel, gave it one more scrubbing, and... Voila', the barrel looked great.  I took it to my smith who has one of those bore telescopes, and he cecked it from both ends... he said it looked like new, with no pitting, or any other damage.  It still shoots as well as the day I got it, and doesn't foul to speak of

So... I'm not so sure about those rumors about pitting stainless with bore cleaners/copper solvents... at least with #9.

No rolled up newspaper for you on this one... I applied it to myself ;)

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 13:25:07 (ZULU)

You're a lucky man, in many ways.

Raffle drawing will be the 24th?

I normally wouldn't say anything about winning it cause it's just a game of chance and all, but, that IS my birthday. I win by default, you can all throw away your numbers now. Sorry, I couldn't resist. :))

John

edited for sp

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 13:30:43 (ZULU)

I heard or read somewhere that you can "see" or tell if someone used a nylon brush, not to mention bronze, on a bore. So, on my new Rock barrel all I use are patches and Sweets, Hoppes#9 and Kroil. Wilson light gun oil for storage. Alcohol for the CBS. I use a "lot" of patches but they (the barrels) come clean.

JR, George, Mike R.

Can you really tell if a brush has been used? It would be easier if I could use a brush sometimes. Like after 20 rds. or more.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 13:46:25 (ZULU)

 Glad to see were getting settled down and "Somewhat" back to normal again.(HA)

 I got to do a little shooting this weekend not as much as I would have liked. The wind started getting to me. I shot the 308 from hell with the new crown job out to 600yds. Its going to be a shooter. With right at 100rds through it now its shooting a solid .5  for 5 shot groups at 100yds.

 I managed to get zeros out to 600 on it on saturday. Even with a 7 to 10mph cross wind it managed to stay around .6MOA all the way to 600yds for 3 shot groups shooting over the hood of my PU. It pulled out a 2.9" group at 600yds. I would not have believed that recrowning would have made so much difference in a rifle.

  When I got this thing it honest to God would not shoot any better than a 2" group!! This was after bedding and free floating the barrel and trigger work.

Dave & Rick..

  I have always cleaned with Hoppies first wet patches and brushing, for the carbon. Then go to Sweets for the copper. When finished with the Sweets I use one wet patch of Hoppies to get out the Sweets and then dry patch it. This has worked great for me. I don't care for the Shooters choice because I have read where its really nasty to your system when it comes in contact with your skin. I now use rubber gloves for all my cleaning duties. I should note here that I probably am not a good example since a barrel doesn't last me more than a couple of years at the most(HA).

Brian..

 I would be intrested in knowing what it did to your barrel also. I have heard all the horror stories too. I did my own testing on a piece of barrel that I had. I soaked it in Sweets for a couple of weeks and took it out and it was as shiney as the day it went in.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 14:17:57 (ZULU)

Anyway, here goes: I cleaned the rifle with Shooters Choice to get the fouling out. Patched it dry and then hit it with the Sweets. Stupidly, I allowed something to distract me while I had the Sweets in there. (I had a new baby back then or maybe it was the female SS Camp guard I was married to at the time), who knows ?

Regardless, I let it sit too long. Realized it (oh shit), hurried to it (damn, damn, damn), patched it with dry patches and then hit it some more with the Shooters Choice ... too late. Damage done. Damn. Probably compounded.

I always use a coated rod and controlled strokes (that's why the chicks dig me). All Dewey stuff, all brass brushes, jags, etc.

The gun went from 1/2 minute to all over the place. So, I sent the rifle back to Robar and told 'em what I did.

I am also a forensic artist (I'm autistic) and at about that same time I was flying out to an art class in Scottsdale and I called Robbie up. I told him I'd be in the area and that I'd like to see the rebarrel job he was doing on my stick. He showed me the old barrel with a bore scope.

Full of pits and little grooves all over the place. Looked kinda like a topographical map of a mountainous area. OR, a windshield when the rain first hits it after a new coat of Rain X. Got a mental picture ?

Which, incidentally, kinda sounds like what ALAN was describing. I was saying to myself "yep, yep, sounds like my deal" as I read ALANs recent post.

Anyway, I was told that the mixture of the chemicals formed an acid that attacked the (carbon, chromium ?) content in the stainless - even though I had patched dry between, the vapors were still there. This, in addition to the fact that I had left the Sweets in too long. Boy did I feel stupid. Was told that in the future to run BreakFree in between the two to neutralize them. I just said screw it and use only Choice now. Has worked for the last ten years. I just wondered HOW clean I was really getting my sticks with my recent post.

Incidentally, we put a fluted 20 incher back on the thing. That was waaaaaaay before it was cool to have a 20 incher. Didn't hurt me none in the cop end of the sniping business. Back to 1/2 minute. Lesson learned; albeit expensively.

The end.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 14:20:51 (ZULU)

Lito - I have also heard of guys doing that with Shooter's Choice and getting really good results with no apparent ill effects to the barrel.  Not sure I would do that with Sweet's though.

JRMoore - I have used Blue Goo as well and really like it, but am too blasted lazy to make it anymore so use Sweet's instead.  Get the same lovely blue gel with Sweet's when I have had a 100 round day on the range.  :-)

Alan - I am just as guilty as I had undertood that they had added nickel to the stainless to reduce galling and ease machining as well.  Guess they are all old wives tails like sucking the copper or nickel out with Sweet's.  Wonder if it is a great Hoppe's conspiracy.  Any of you remember the scare that Hoppe's caused brain tumors?  The FBI was considering dropping Hoppe's because of it in 87 or 88.  Old timers makes it hard to remember dates now days.

Dave - I would be concerned with that much JB in my barrel.  Just my opinion, but I would only use JB when it was really necessary.  That is alittle too abrasive for my tastes and as I said I am leery of just brushing my barrels.

CDC - Do you have sinus problems?  Sweet's about kills me, but a good thing is it lets you know where all the little nicks are on your fingers.  :-)

OK enough of my blatherings.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 14:30:01 (ZULU)

Dang, speaking about our parents and those who served, I think I will mentioned my dad and his generation.

For the longest time, when growing up and watching movies like the Sands of Iwo Jima, The Big Red One, The Dirty Dozen and Patton, and many more, my Dad would just let me watch them and go on doing house duties.

For the longest time I would ask about his military service during the Korean conflict when I was a kid. His answer would always be that he was just a cook and he cooked for everyone. My dad pasted away in 1984, a year or so before I went to MCRD. When I went through his personal posession I found the normal items one would find. What I did not expect to find was a CIB. For the life of me, I thought "heck, how can he get a CIB when he was just a cook." After a bit more investigation, I found out that he was with the 45 Infantry division with the rank of staff sargent and that was it. I found one piece of paper but it did not say much.

My point here is simply this, I never appreciated him and his generation when I was a kid, and it was to late for me to appreciate him now as an adult -- what a loss but I have learned to appreciate those of his generation and to keep his memory in my heart and mind.

I don't make it a habit to tell people about my pop and express what little I knew about him but given the nature of this site, and those who visit it, I just wanted to; maybe it is my way of honoring him.

Take care all...

Darren...

Semper Fi

Darren <usmc_dd214_1990@yahoo.com>
SF, CA, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 15:00:38 (ZULU)

"In one case, $50,000 was offered to a commander to defect. Let me think about it, the commander said. So the Special Forces A-team directed a J-DAM precision bomb right outside the commander's headquarters. The next day, they called the commander back. How about $40,000? He ccepted."

We got carrots.  We got sticks. I guess they charged him $10,000 for the bomb.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3105-2002Nov17.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3084-2002Nov17.html

On the Security Council lube-job:  Bush won't go for it.  Sadaam is in BIG trouble.  Remember where you heard it.

Dan

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 15:05:11 (ZULU)

She was German. No sense of humor. And ... I got just enough Scotch/Irish in me to like a good fight. "Aye lassie, why dunya jis bite me"   he he.

We went together like Sweets and Shooters Choice with no buffer.

later fellas ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 15:06:23 (ZULU)

said: "If you have GI Insurance and go into battle and are killed, the government has to pay $200,000 to your beneficiaries. If you don't have GI insurance, and you go into battle and get killed, the government only has to pay a maximum of $6000.  Now," he concluded, "which group do you think they are going to send into battle first?"

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 15:44:03 (ZULU)

For my Rice rifle, I use Tetra's light lubricant and conditioner when cleaning and so far I have had no problems.

Darren...

Semper Fi

Darren <usmc_dd214_1990@yahoo.com>
SF, CA, 94121 - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 15:55:08 (ZULU)

Gun Bunny13, 20 hrs 1300 miles. Hehe

I got another Beretta M9 for the trip home.

Scott, I believe in you man. You will keep a club house open for us.

Marius, That message burned my eyes.

CDC, glad you back.

I will catch up on the roster fully this evening. Most importantly, DID I WIN!!

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 16:06:32 (ZULU)

Fwiw I understand sweets is water based and when it has got all the copper off the bore the h2o can attack the bare steel?.

Off to work,cowboyin again

out G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 18:30:51 (ZULU)

If I may pose a question?

You're getting an AI which is a DBM system.  A mutual friend has also bought an ACIS system for one of his duty 308's, replacing an A3, to go to a durable, proven, DBM set up as well.  What is your drive to go with a DBM for LEO?  Is it the ability to go from TAP to GMM, etc. quickly or it it just a matter of "this is what it comes with", or something else I'm missing?

I know the DBM vs BDL has been hashed out about 10,000 times here,, and I'm not trying to pour salt in old wounds and have NO desire to talk about guys loosing shit in the field ;)) I'm just curious as to why the AI chassis are doing so well as of late.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 19:22:49 (ZULU)

I would worry more about the effects of the strong ammonia vs the water base... Technically, the alcohol applied as a neutralizer for Sweets will tend to draw moisture as well.  If you end with Hoppes or some other solvent, it should displace the moisture and remedy the concern.

I tend to follow Lito's advice on gun cleaning...it jives with some training I had a few years back .. something to the tone of "first, do no harm".  I can see where the military guys might take a more aggressive approach (time and use levels)...but I generally have a lot of down time between shooting trips, and my rifles can sit and soak.  I have also noticed that I don't have to clean every last bit of black out of the bore in order to restore accuracy and protect from corrosion.

Note- water is an excellent solvent and a really good choice as an early step in cleaning weapons fired with "corrosive" ammo.  It will cut the corrosive salts much better than a carbon solvent.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 19:46:09 (ZULU)

The other side of the coin, from today's WSJ online.  Simply disgraceful.

- - -

Taking Academic Freedom Seriously

Chicago's St. Xavier University has suspended Peter Kirstein, the professor who, as we noted Nov. 7, sent a vicious, and widely circulated, e-mail message to an Air Force cadet, calling the young man "a disgrace to this country" and accusing him of "aggressive baby-killing tactics." A statement from Richard Yanikoski outlines the sanctions he's imposed:

1. Effective on the afternoon of November 11, 2002, Professor Kirstein was relieved of his teaching responsibilities for the current semester and reassigned to other duties.

2. An administrative reprimand will be delivered to Professor Kirstein and placed in his personnel file.

3. While on sabbatical leave during the spring semester of 2003, Professor Kirstein will submit his teaching, scholarship, professional development, and service record to peer evaluation within the norms of the University's procedures for periodic review of tenured faculty. Professor Kirstein volunteered to have this review conducted earlier than it otherwise would have been.

4. Any future faculty contract(s) extended to Professor Kirstein will include a binding addendum specifically requiring him to adhere both to institutional policies and to the norms of the American Association of University Professors in matters relating to the proper exercise of academic freedom and extramural activities.

After years of students and professors being disciplined for false charges of bigotry (it happened to us back on our college days), it's good to see a university take genuine bigotry--in this case, against America--seriously. Having the suspension begin on Veterans Day is an especially elegant touch.

Some will no doubt argue that St. Xavier violated Kirstein's academic freedom, but this misunderstands the concept. Academic freedom, unlike free speech, is not a constitutional right; it is a privilege that universities accord to their scholars in the name of encouraging honest inquiry. It entails certain responsibilities, as the American Association of University Professors official statement on academic freedom makes clear:

College and university teachers are citizens, members of a learned profession, and officers of an educational institution. When they speak or write as citizens, they should be free from institutional censorship or discipline, but their special position in the community imposes special obligations. As scholars and educational officers, they should remember that the public may judge their profession and their institution by their utterances. Hence they should at all times be accurate, should exercise appropriate restraint, should show respect for the opinions of others, and should make every effort to indicate that they are not speaking for the institution.

Kirstein's own Web site carries a second apology for the e-mail: "I deeply regret the hurtful way I communicated to the cadet and it will never happen again." His main page bears the motto "Academic freedom is never free"--a principle St. Xavier plainly takes seriously. The university has given Kirstein an opportunity, once his suspension ends, to show that he does too.

(online at http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110002640 or click my name below)

John L

John Leveron <john@leveron.com>
Mid MO, U.S. of A. - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 19:53:47 (ZULU)

The eagle has landed,, and it makes for some intersting reading.  The XTC angle of the articles aside,, it looks like it would match or exceed the performance of the 6mmBR Rem without any trouble and with cheaper brass.  

Thank you.

For those looking for inexpensive spotting scopes,, midsouth has the Nikon earth,wind and sky 20x60 for $159.88 and the compact Burris 20x50 for $131.  Not the best optics for sure,, but I use a $70 12x24x50 BSA angled body to keep score and read mirage/wind and it workie just fine for it's intended purpose.  I wouldn't wanna bet my life on any of these, and the BSA is WAY less than fieldable, but it works for what I need, so long as I don't want to see bullet holes beyond 200 yards ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 20:04:38 (ZULU)

"...Young people, who are or have recently spent time on college campuses, have much more exposure to the freak show that is the "antiwar" movement, exemplified by the likes of Peter Kirstein"

Ouch...

Maybe the kids will start spitting on him and yelling "because of your stupid, drug enhanced complacency, thousands died in the WTC!"

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 20:14:56 (ZULU)

The AI just happens to be a DBM and the few benefits of a DBM just happen to come with it.

However, I'd just as soon have a floorplate. One shot, maybe two is all that is usually ever needed for LE work. Three only if Murphy camps out on your head. We all know this stuff. (See Scotts quotes of mine on the Rem DBM in the Review or Tips section of SC).

My take on it all is that the AI was designed around the DBM and works. The Remmy was not and doesn't. IMHO Remmy tried a quick fix to get some of that DBM hype money but their design sucked and the components were cheap junk and it backfired on them.

As you stated, it is somewhat of a benefit of the DBM to be able to switch easily from SMK to TAP to a barrier round or whatever. No biggy there.

But, what really sold me on the AI was this:  I walked into the vendors room at the New England Sniper Summit in "01. An AI rep was holding an AWP/Schmidt Bender by the fore end and slamming the rifle down on the butt pad from shoulder high, (like sticking a shovel in soft dirt). The rifle would bounce two feet. He would catch it and slam it again. He did this over and over and over as he talked to a guy. Chris, he did this for five minutes, literally. I thought the dude had friggin' lost it. It got comical after the initial shock wore off.

He then proceeded to take the rifle into the indoor range at the Smith and Wesson Academy and shoot a FIVE SHOT SUB half minute group from prone bi-pod after doing this. He did this and then did it again after I talked to him. This was the demo, on the same rifle, for TWO days. I was a converted believer. Fell over backwards. Good God ya'll, make me hurt myself. Can I get an Amen ...

There isn't a Remington or Winnie ANYWHERE, BUILT BY ANYBODY that will take that kind of abuse. And the thing shot like it was just taken out of the box.

I was sold.

I also spoke with the guy that owns TacPro in Ft. Worth where the Snipers Paradise shoot was held this year. English fellow, forget the name. I was telling him the same story and he told me that he dropped his once and it fell down two flights of stairs. Says he picked it up and it rocked on like it never happened ...

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, November 18, 2002, at 20:31:26 (ZULU)

Just a quote taken from:

Suggestions to Military Riflemen

By Townsend Whelen ( Dean of American Riflemen )

1906

"Before going to the range,carefully wipe

all oil or cleaning solution from the bore"

"The bore must be perfectly clean and dry before firing.

The presence of oil in the barrel will cause the first few

shots to go high and exceedingly wild.

For the same reason cartridges should never be lubricated."

96 years ago ,Clean and dry!

Steve from New Joisey

Steven Dzupin <sdzupin@optonline.net>
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 20:50:45 (ZULU)

Is yours an AWP or an AW?  Either way,,,,, that about sums it up ;))  I wonder how much of a factor the S&B played toward the repeatability?  Was it their fixed 10X or the variable?  GUess maybe they're worth the money (just don't tell Pete)

I like the AI actions, though they have really strange bolt lugs, and the trigger on the AWP is amazing.  I'm a cheap bastard and have a hard stepping up to the $4000+ price tag sans optics, but looked at as compared to a custom actioned Palma rifle, or even a "Rock" derivitive with a Nesika/stolle/RPA/CG etc.,  action it's reasonable.  Do the rings/scope rail come with the rifle?

I've read a bit about the round bottomed AI they introduced recently, which is MUCH less expensive than the AWP's.  I have a hard time believeing that a round reciever is worth $2000 less than a flat bottom one,,, but I'm ignorant of such things ;))  Could a little machine work REALLY make $2000 difference?

Looks like you'll be one of the first Hawgs to own one,, looking forward to seeing how it shoots.  I think Mike (not Uundude) has one,,, but he doesn't share range stories ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 21:10:09 (ZULU)

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, November 18, 2002, at 21:50:08 (ZULU)

• Back to Archives