Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

Chris, some people use the 284 Win for long range. John Holliger uses one on an XP-100 based rifle. You're going to be burning right about 56-58gns of slow powder(4831,4350'ish) for about 2800fps(168) from a 26" barrel, at least that's what the books are saying. The 280Rem burns about the same, for similar velocities. The AI gets you about 4-5gns more powder(and a more manly pressure spec because of the pussification of the 280 due to the Rem autoloaders it was chambered for) for right about 2950 from a 26" tube, again so the books say. I'll let you know when I get the rifle up and running. The 7WSM burns almost 70gn of slow powder(4831,H1000) for over 3000fps from a 26" barrel(book). That's at it's short(2.800) OAL, you should be able to get more at a longer length. My 7mm Rem Mag currently uses 71.5gn of H1000 for 3050fps from a 26" barrel. FWIW. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 01:05:37 (ZULU)

I also have dealt with Patrick Stanley, and he is the man to deal with regarding RRA items.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 01:38:43 (ZULU)

KenM,

This helps. Here is how I tried to rationalize this to myself. I take the 308win with a 175gr to 2725fps using 45gr Varget, 26" tube. 46gr will get the 168SMK 30 cal to almost 2800fps, 26" tube. So, seeing as the 7mm 168 is the same weight as the 30, and can be pushed with the same 46gr Varget, I should be able to attain 2800fps. Now, I get a slightly larger case, the 284win, and put some slower powder in there (maybe H4350 or N150 range) and I should be able to push that same pill to 2950fps or there abouts. Would these powders be too fast? I wonder how the pressure would be with about 53 to 54gr of H4350.

After looking through the Sierra manual, and checking the Hodgedons site it seems that no one wants to publish any figures allowing the 168, or almost any other size pill for that matter, faster than 2700fps BUT,,, these figures came from 22" barrels. A 26" tube should be able to get close to 2900fps, a 30" er maybe 2950+. Now I'm trying to convince myself again... Pretty soon I'll be back to 260's and 7-08's....

I'm eagerly awaiting your results with the 280AI. I'd love to go try and test a 7WSM and report back to the DR. My main reason for holding out is that there's no established match chambers and I'm a recoil sensetive bitch and have no idea what to expect. I figure it'll be about like a 30-06 if I go with a 16lbs rifle.

Oh,, some guys trying the 6.5WSM wildcat are reporting 650 rounds a barrel. I can see JR smilin' from here.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 01:53:01 (ZULU)

Durand

I had a set of 1" Leupold throw lever mounts on my 700 PSS before I changed to Bagers. They worked ok, and seamed to return fairly closely. With mine you needed pliers and a leather pad to turn the levers. I would trust this mount & ring combination.

Andrew

Years ago I bought a new 670 Winchester in 225. As best I can remember it is the same action as a standard post 64 Winchester Model 70 with cheap wood, and a spartan metal finish. Kinda like a Model 27 Smith & Wesson compaired to a Model 28 Highway Patrol. This should be a good start on a new project. Enjoy

CMounty <roachw@fidnet.com>
Houston, MO, U.S.of A. - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 03:36:13 (ZULU)

Chris, I think you just might squeeze 2900 from a 30" tube with the 284Win and you'll want to go slower than Varget or N150, try N160,N165, H4350 and RL19 and 22. I'd suggest H4831 too, only the SC version as the long stick is a cast iron PITA to meter. Those numbers on the Hodgdon's site are at an OAL of 2.905 for the 284/160gn loads, so you're not going to get much improvement on them with long seating. There are loads in the printed new edition Hodgdons book for the 168's.

When you go from a larger diameter bullet to smaller on the same case, drop the charge because the pressure will go up due to bearing surface(308 to 7-08). I like N160 for the 7-08, seems to act just a touch faster than IMR4350. You might be able to just shade 2800fps with the 7-08 in a 30" tube and 168's, but you'd be pushing really hard IME. My father runs molyed 162gn A-max's from a 28inch Kreiger at 2680fps for his 1K rifle with N140. I've been trying to get him to go to N160, but he's shooting high 190's needing only 28.5 MOA to get to 1K from 200yd zero, so why switch?

IMO, the 7-08 is a good choice. I'm going with the 280AI because I want to be different and the rifle was already set up for a 06 length round and I'm willing to give up the barrel life for the extra 150fps or so. I was thinking long and hard about the 6.5-284, but I don't like rebated rims and the smith had a 7mm barrel sitting in the shop waiting to go, along with a 2 stage Jewel trigger. How could I say no? S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 04:03:27 (ZULU)

this is my first time to post but a long time lurker.with regards to the gas the russions used to subdue the theater crowd was probably xenon gas.its the perfect stealth anesthetic.its colorless,odorless,and extremely fast acting.they're telling everyone its fentynl which would be very hard to aerolosize and the terrs. would have plenty of time to know they were being gassed thus they'd have plenty of time to hit their detonators.xenon is the only anasthetic agent that is odorless and colorless and can be vaporized.the problem with using most anesthetic gas agents in room is there is no control over the amount every person receives ie. people who are next to the ventilation ducts would get a much larger dose.also, theres no antidote for gas other than to ventilate the affected person with o2.just my thoughts on this issue...

mark

mark <exfn1@aol.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 04:14:37 (ZULU)

mark

mark <exfn1@aol.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 04:17:44 (ZULU)

Ty,

Just go and get ya a Ford Powerstroke...then ya get used to the smell. Or, use dawn soap on a wet cloth, scrub the hell out of it then take a blow dryer to the wet spot (not THAT one)...then dump some of that febreeze stuff over it and let the sun do the rest. Here today, gone tomorrow.

Gents,

The local college dorms set up a trick or treat. Indoors, up and down halls and stairs. These kids do some things worth mentioning--and this was one. Lot's of candy, and Nicole was just beaming the whole time. She got in an hour on foot, and an hour in my arms. Filled the bucket with candy twice. When college kids aren't holding peace rallies in support of the PLO, they can get some things right. There is hope for 'em...Nicole is still wearing her Pooh-suit, sound asleep with candy wrappers all over the place. The pneumonia is simmering, not bad, not clearing up. I just moved my leave time from "hunt" to nurse duty. By the time I go back to work, she should be clear.

The really good news is the diagnosis came just as she finished the intensive chemo phase. She'll fight the infections without the chemo making it worse for a week or two. There's always a bright side, eh?

On the 284--seen a few sticks of late chambered for it. May be making that comeback after all.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 05:03:11 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just reading the posts...holy shit, folks are actually posting about shooting...!

Chris, Ken, and all. I have been a fan of the .284 Winch for some time. It got a bad rap because of the Winch 88 and 100 that it was chambered in...limited to 2.800" AOL. My mex mouser is a medium action so I can seat the bullets out, not lose anything, and pick up the powder space. This in a 20" Krieger barrel. Velocities remain to be seen.

I still stump for the 6.5 over the 7MM for target use. Actually, it comes down to the man and the rifle. The rest is personal preference.

Hell, give the .280 AI a go and the .284 Winch. Both are great cartridges. My brother in law had a Remington Mountain rifle in .280 we opened up to the .280 AI. Incredible performer. The rifle, NOT my brother in law...;-)

On a personal note, I've been pulled off duty for 4-6 days. Seems my equilibrium went and they can't have me falling down on the job. Will give me time to work on several projects I've been wanting to complete. Will have to see what the meds do...

There IS a god! Still, I feel like I'm leaving the rest of the team hanging. Will have to make I up to them somehow...NO DONUT JOKES!

All for now. Good to see we are back to reality and discussing shooting again. GET OUT AND VOTE! Done mine by mail already...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 05:37:09 (ZULU)

Ty, go to your local oil jobber or petroleum distributor and get some odorless Naptha/Mineral Spirits. It is really odorless unlike solvents of old. Just blot at the spot with the solvent and scrub. Then get it into the sun or heat if you can and you should be alright.

P.S. Buy a Cummins and you won't have to smell it at all!!!

Stock question;

We have an A-Bolt for a back-up for the team. One of the guys was training with it and broke the front sling stud out along with a big chunk of the synthetic. Can I just resin the chunk back in and then wrap fiberglass cloth around it or am I screwed? Only needs to support the bi-pod, and the gun is mostly used just for training so perfection is not a necessity.

Joe;

Just know that you are in our thoughts. My wife just finished a year's worth of chemo and several surgeries for breast cancer. She is 28 and chemo nearly killed her. She is a poster child for Murphy's Law. If it could happen to her, it did.

I can't even imagine what Nicole is experiencing. I don't know if it will help but if you need to talk to a partner of a survivor hit me off-line and I'll get you my phone number. It's good 24/7 and sometimes it's nice to talk to someone who's been there.

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 08:01:53 (ZULU)

Rich and Joe,

Tell the wife and daughters, to keep the faith, we need 'em. Sometimes I'd be loathe to admit it,(16 yr.old daughter)but I do need mine.

Rich,

My neighbor is a 5yr. survivor/veteran of the same protocol as your wife. It does work.

George is gonna build me a GI gas gun. Supposedly has a pile of GI parts laying around. I've decided on Armscorp (sp?) for the receiver. Any comments? It's just for HD and plinkin. I can't stand match pressure, I spend way to much.

Wes,

Hope they (docs) figure it out and get ya back soon.

John

Edited for content

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 10:02:53 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Here's a bit of trivia I didn't know. This close to 11/11 I thought it appropriate.

Some people have been a bit offended that Lee Marvin is buried in a grave alongside 3 and 4 star generals at Arlington National Cemetery. His marker gives his name, rank (Pvt.) and service (USMC). Nothing else. Here's a guy who was only a famous movie star who served his time, why the heck does he rate burial with these guys? Well, following is the amazing answer. I always liked Lee Marvin, but did not know the extent of his Corps experiences. In a time when many Hollywood stars served their country in the armed forces, often in rear-eschelon posts where they were carefully protected only to be trotted out to perform for the cameras in war bond promotions. Lee Marvin was a genuine hero. He won the Navy Cross at Iwo Jima. There is only one higher Naval award, The Medal Of Honor. If that is

a surprising comment on the true character of the man, he credits his

sergeant with an even greater show of bravery.

> Dialog from the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson: guest was Lee Marvin.

> Johnny said, "Lee, I'll bet a lot of people are unaware that you were a Marine in the initial landing at Iwo Jima... and that during the course of that action you earned the Navy Cross and were severely wounded." "Yeah, yeah.... I got square in the ass and they gave me the Cross for securing a hot spot about half way up Suribachi... bad thing about getting shot up on a mountain is guys gettin' shot up hauling you down. But Johnny, at Iwo I served under the bravest man I ever knew.... We both got the Cross the same day, but what he did for his Cross made mine look cheap in comparison. The dumb bastard actually stood up on Red Beach and directed his troops to move forward and get the hell off the beach. That Sergeant and I have been lifelong friends. When they brought me off Suribachi, we passed the Sergeant and he lit a smoke and passed it to me lying on my belly on the litter and said, "Where'd they get you Lee?" "Well Bob... if you make it home before me, tell Mom to sell the outhouse! Johnny, I'm not lying.... Sergeant Keeshan was the bravest man I ever knew... Bob Keeshan... You and the world knows him as Captain Kangaroo."

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 11:05:37 (ZULU)

Anybody have experience with U. S. Optics scopes? The only good things I hear about them come from the mainstream gun magazines which find everything good and from people trying to sell used ones. My personnal experience with an SN10 U.S. Optics produced for ArmaLite was not good (elevation quit working (no movement) after 120 rounds)and everything I've heard from industry sources I trust is not good.

How reliable are the Leupold 3.5 - 10 x 40 M3s and the illuminated versions of the same?

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 11:06:45 (ZULU)

Marc,

US Optics have a pretty good rep from most of what I've read on the roster. Pricey yeah, but YGWYPF. My M3's have been very reliable. With a fair amount of abuse.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 11:16:04 (ZULU)

Ref: Dial 911

George Phillips of Meridian Mississippi was going up to

bed when his wife told him that he'd left the light on

in the garden shed, which she could

see

from the bedroom window. George opened the back door

to go turn off the

light but saw that there were people in the shed

stealing things. He phoned

the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?" and

he said no.

Then they said that all patrols were busy, and that he

should

simply lock his door and an officer would be along

when available.

George said "Okay," hung up, counted to 30, and phoned

the police again. Hello. I just called you a few seconds

ago because there were

people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about

them now cause I've

just shot them all." Then he hung up.

Within five minutes three police cars, an Armed

Response unit, and an

ambulance showed up at the Phillips residence. Of

course, the police caught

the burglars red-handed. One of the policemen said to

George: "I thought

you said that you'd shot them!"

George said, "I thought you said there was nobody

available!" (True Story)

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:10:05 (ZULU)

Kevin,

In Indiana that would be the SP. :)))

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:22:49 (ZULU)

Andrew...

670 is the same action...

Joe M...

>"Nicole is still wearing her Pooh-suit, sound asleep with candy wrappers all over the place."<

Man, don't they just steal your heart every time...

You will remember this vision until you die.

We parents are truly blessed.

Mark P...

U.S. Optics? Not so good. The glass is very good, but it's the company that's the problem. They often get the orders wrong, and people have gotten scopes with the craziest problems... mil dots that weren't in mils (or anything else), and other "stupid" problems. They have a careless attitude towards the customers, and are absolutly awful with customer service.

I spoke to one of their dealers at a match last year, and he said the same thing "All the bad things you have heard about UOS are true"!... and he has been trying to get USO to clean up their act, but they don't care.

A very good friend worked with them for almost a year, and couldn't get USO to get it right. The biggest problem there is the owner, who's ego (that is big enough to need a dump truck to carry it around) is making all the engineering directions.

They are also 2 to 3 times as much money as they need to be, because they have no sense of production order. Everything is made when they need it, they haven't heard of the production line yet, so you pay for their inefficiency. When the scopes don't work, it is always "Somebody elses's fault"... they outsource stuff, and then whine about it.

If you get one that is good, AND what you want, they are good scopes, but still outragiously expensive.

I hear that they were going to sue me last year... HA! They haven't lived until they've tried to sue me and Ruggus Rattus.

Now I expect some rattling, rusty ol' Gnome in a blond ghilli suit to come out of the wood work, and beat up on me... ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:23:34 (ZULU)

Pete,Undude,Kevin,JohnL,'lito and several others,

You have mail. A forward from a retired officer I met in the business.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:35:48 (ZULU)

Sorry this is kinda' long. Urban myths? or Truth?

Anyone remember this?? It was 1987!

At a lecture the other day they were playing an old news video of Lt. Col. Oliver North testifying at the Iran-Contra hearings during the Reagan Administration. There was Ollie in front of God and country getting the third degree, but what he said was stunning! He was being drilled by a senator;

"Did you not recently spend close To $60,000 for a home security system?"

Ollie replied, "Yes, I did, Sir."

The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the audience, "Isn't that just a little excessive?"

"No, sir," continued Ollie.

"No? And why not?" the senator asked.

"Because the lives of my family and I were threatened, sir."

"Threatened? By whom?" the senator questioned.

"By a terrorist, sir" Ollie answered.

"Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?"

"His name is Osama bin Laden, sir" Ollie replied.

At this point the senator tried to repeat the

name, but couldn't pronounce it, which most people back then probably couldn't. A couple of people laughed at the attempt. Then the senator

continued.

"Why are you so afraid of this man?" the senator

asked.

"Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive

that I know of" Ollie answered.

"And what do you recommend we do about him?" asked the senator.

"Well, sir, if it was up to me, I would recommend that an assassin team be formed to eliminate him and his men from the face

of the earth."

The senator disagreed with this approach, and that was all that was shown of the clip.

By the way, that senator was Al Gore

ALSO: Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called "political prisoners". However, the Israelis would

not release any with blood on their hands. The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released. Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists

were first identified. It was censored in the US from all later reports.

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:58:41 (ZULU)

the captain kangeroo story was great, so i looked for more and found this, for what it is worth, says it is fiction

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/keeshan.htm

i still like the story, we need heros and the captian is a childrens advocate and hero

Fred

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:59:37 (ZULU)

i hate to be a killjoy cause i really like the colonel(have his autograghed pic)but it is also an embellished tale, he did mention a terrorist by name though http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/ollienorth-osama.htm

Fred

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 13:08:24 (ZULU)

This must be the morning for Internet rumor stories. Wes; as much as I enjoy the turn of content, you know this isn't a shooting site by the way. SNIPER COUNTY? or so it says. :). Just messin with you. Been there on that inner ear problem. It's bad news. Hope it gets better but it takes a while. Sometimes I have to go to Hydrogen Peroxide in the brown bottles in my ears to get it back off. That's a no-no the doctors say. They say it will ruin your hearing. Huh!

I'm sure it will but I hear good at 60 something and it's only been a 30 year treatment cycle for me. I guess I'm the exception.

Lito'; and Gnome IBGS; I seldom laugh outloud for more than 5 minutes on these posts but... Go get him Gnome! He's your's, you want Mustard or Ketchup on your Catshooter Burger?

Oh by the way, The Ollie North story is listed at the same site referenced above as fraudulent. There was an exchange about the burgular alarm system but I don't remember anything about Ben Laudin being discussed. Ollie is one of the good guys but he operates in the fog at times too. He once said that the people of western Kansas were the greatest current threat to Democracy (I guess he forgot about Bin Lauden). He had just been fed that BS from our Governor who was thinking she had militia activity in this part of the state. There is no western Kansas Militia but there were successionists here because of the state enacting laws that changed the allocation of education tax dollars to favor the Urban eastern schools with money from oil rich counties in the west. The Governor was getting reports of Black Helicopters from this area which spooked her into thinking there was Militia activity going on. It was in fact found to be elements of the DEA and her own National Guard helicopters that she sent to check on the Militia activity.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 13:30:48 (ZULU)

Uhh Oh: NOW I have to say this, Ive been called on it already, There is a Kansas Militia, it operates mainly in the eastern and central area of the state. There were at one times elements of the Posse Comatus out here and in south eastern Colorado, But little remains of any of it since 911. The Kansas Militia is beneign as far as I can tell as far as a threat to democracy. How did I get into this anyway, I was sitting back waiting to see the Gnome show!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 14:08:04 (ZULU)

I'm crushed! I thought the Kang was a war hero...shat! Anyway,

'lito, what was the tabasco mildot scope, early on, that was worth a sh crap? I think I found 6 of 'em.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 14:16:24 (ZULU)

John,

What does George say about the Armscorp? I seem to remember that there were some bad things said about it several years ago (bolt raceway angles or something?) but I have no firsthand knowledge, and don't want to unintentionally slam a perfectly good product. I'd leave it up to George if it was me -

Wes, Donuts? Donuts and coffee? Cops around here laugh at that. You'll find them hangin' around at the Bagel shop sippin' their latte's! ;-)

'yote bait,

Colorado Possee Comatatus got pretty much wiped out by the IRS some years ago. Tried to use the old argument about the income tax being unconstitutional so a bunch of them quit filing. Nothing happened for a long time until they started bragging about it and the Sunday Denver Post gave the story a first page second section feature.

IRS came down hard, they always try to make an example of the squeaky wheels. I knew a member of the Possee that lost his home, his business, and everything else that he owned. Lived down in Cortez.*0-(

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 16:54:05 (ZULU)

Alan; your probably right about the Posse. They were seductive to some of the Farmers in the American Agriculture Movement and several joined. It(Posse) was or seemed to me to be racially motivated as well, very big on blaming everything on Jewish Bankers and eventually gave us the UN conspiracy theories. The confusion of the UN theories and the fact that the Clinton Administration tried to use the UN treaties to grab the Militia of America's weapons. "thats you and me guys!" These things gave the true meaning of the militia a bad name. Well..... you know, like a beltway drive by shooter Muslem sympathizer with capitalistic tendencies is doing to the "Sniper Cult". I don't know if one organization faded into the other or died a natural death after the wounded knee incident in S.Dak. I notice in a little SE Colorado farm town there is still a meeting hall that was the meeting place of the AAM. It still sports a new coat of paint every so often. The CRP program seems to have quieted the unrest for a while at least. Just a little Americana Culture & History for the morning. Oh this is a gun site, so let me say that the standard Armament was a Mini 14, 1000 rounds and .45 1911 Colt for the soldiers of that movement. There were survival rations and other requirements or so I was told. (I'm just a journalist folks, don't fire on the reporters!).

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 17:17:30 (ZULU)

Question:

I am ordering a Stealth .223, Loopy 4.5-14-40 w/mdots.

I was planing on using MK4 rings and base but I see that the base for the Win. are 2pc.

I don't need a tapered base but am I better of with the Badger base or is the 2pc. base ok.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 17:40:57 (ZULU)

Alan,

The Armscorp was his suggestion, unless I just absolutely had to have a Springfield for historical significance or some other reason. I may have misinterpreted what he was saying, but the new springfield rifles off the shelf weren't discussed very long. That's how we got on the headspace issue, being very looonngg. He suggested it and I know very little about 'em, he's gonna build it from scratch. I figured I couldn't go wrong. I do remember what you're talkin about but at the time it didn't mean much to me cause I wasn't lookin for one. One track mind?? :))

I also talked at length w/Terry @ KMW as well. Since he didn't do gas guns as a rule, he kinda steered me to a precision decision. He's a great guy to bounce ideas off of. Always has time to talk.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 19:07:05 (ZULU)

Hey Fellers,

Gots a custom riffle question. So I decided that if'n I'ma gonna have one built (.308 "tactical" style), I'll try to acquire all the components seperately over time to ease the 'ol bank account. Now, I figger I'll try to get a 700 BDL (that's the one I want right? not the ADL?)short action that's in good shape at a gunshow this weekend (and possibly have it clipslotted by John at tacticalstocks.com). As far as the other components go, any advice or comments on the following choices?......

Recoil lug...Badger?

Barrel....Rock, Hart, or Lothar Walther???? I don't want to spend too much on the barrel (under $400), but I want a good one.

Stock...McMillan (of course) A3 (with USMC sniper fill) unless they introduce an A5 as proposed on snipershide.com (highly unlikely).

Bottom metal...Badger

Rings and Mounts...Badger

Scope...LR M3.

Swivels...Wichita

Sling...TI

Do these sound like good choices? Am I missing anything? My biggest question is about what Barrel make and (not to stir the pot, but here goes) twist? I'd be shooting 175's. What about barrel length? I'm thinking 24" or 26", however the "Rock" seems to do OK with a 22" tube. I know about George's reputation and Jerry Rice's (I also imagine they are waaay busy too). Does anyone have any experience with John Baier (sp?) at tactical stocks or Jeff (Celt) Hicks?

I have some time here to work with, so there's no rush, but I want to make sure I get the best components I can afford and the best guy to put it together too.

Thanks,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 19:31:24 (ZULU)

Rich,

11.25" twist rate or faster for the 175's. Ain't gonna name any barrelmakers for you, ahem, but use one that these dude's on SC trust, Krieger makes a good barrel... If it's for tac use, go with the 24" bbl, it's got the poop to get you to 800yds, 24 is a good choice..

hope this helps

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 19:48:24 (ZULU)

Rich S.,

If you're going with Badger bottom metal, don't waste you're cash on a BDL action. The ADL is the same thing less the bottom metal and if you find an older one the bolt with be jewelled just like the BDL's. You can save maybe $50 by going ADL.

Barrel. I'd go with whatever the smith recommends. And keeping a barrel under $400 should be WAY easy. The Border that JR is gonna drill for me is gonna run me $285, and that's a 30" Stainless mutha with a custom taper.

Also, if you're getting the Wichita swivels you may want to order your stock now. I think some of the models are running about 2 months behind. Not bad,, but something you may want to discuss with Kelly if you're ordering direct.

Rich Johnson,

Regarding the stud on the A bolt.... Why not have a $12 champions choice rail installed in the forearms and put one of the uncle mikes swivel adaptors in. Should cost you less tha $50 when it'sa ll said and done and you'll have some versatility that you'd otherwise not have.

FatBoy...

Hey you old Chubasouris Kitty, If I did not love you I would hide your sand box.

On the Armalite scope made for them by US Optics. Thats was a piece of crap and it was never supposed to be associated with US Optics. It was low bid one off and was only supposed to have Armalites name on it. My source tells me Armalie paid just over 200.00 each for that scope and specd all the parts. It is not what US Optiocs sells unders its name. My source told me US Optics wished they never agreed to it but USO was a ne business at the time and f'd up by agreeing to it. I think of that scope as USO's naked pictures, all the famous ones seem to get caught with years latter. Bad decision.

On the current production scope. I have a bunch ad they are very good. What Litto says about price, of the varibles is correct. They should be less to compete. The fixed scopes are right with a MK4 in price and better glass. The varible are about three times that of a Premier Gen Two LR Tactical and that will keep them off a bunch of rifles, no matter what.

The one complaint about USO is the customer service. It ranges from great to piss poor depending on who has dealt with them. I have beaten them up over that issue and some things have been done to improve. Time will tell if its fixed.

One things they do is develop new products, Something that the big companies wait so long to do.

Undude with well oiuled knees. Gnome? Should kick the Kitty.LOL

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 19:54:08 (ZULU)

JR and Chris and all,

Thanks for the poop. I didn't realize the diff between the BDL and the ADL. Saving money is good!! JR, if you want you can email me some recommendations(so as to not name names etc. on a forum).I figured about the 11.25 twist (or a 1:10....I know 'Lito highly recommends 'em), I was thinking about getting one (Rock 5R) from John at Tactical stocks, I know he had em on sale but I don't know if he still has them or not. I'm looking at a time scale of a year MINIMUM here, so waiting a while isn't too much of a concern for me. I know of most of the barrel makers mentioned here, I just don't know the real differences in styles (5R, conventional, etc) materials etc. Thanks guys and keep the ideas and info coming PLEASE.

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 20:06:31 (ZULU)

Guys,

Just got word that Mike Barber of McMillan stocks was killed in a skydiving accident in CA. while performing a stunt for an upcoming Bruce Willis film.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 20:23:13 (ZULU)

Ref: .22 Rimfire

Could any of you fine gentlemen provide the BC for a 40 grain lead round nose @1,250 fps. Feel free to contribute too 'lito.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Sprngs, New York, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 20:51:05 (ZULU)

Rich,

Chris(tubby, hey Lee told me all about ya, hahh) gave ya the dollar or pound,whatever sign...Custom ain't cheap, the c in custom comes from c-note.. Who would I recommend besides Border,, hmmmm, not Lothar Walther for sure, bastards, mmm, hart eehhh maybe....No I'd never recommend the buttoneers, against my principle. harumphh...yer on yer own..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 21:14:24 (ZULU)

Aye Rich,

If you want to figure out the dimensions, blah blahhh, email me...I'll want to know exactly what you are shooting at what range at fps, blah blah blah, and I'll tell you who can get you there.. right?

laater

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 21:29:53 (ZULU)

Aye Rich,

laater

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 21:29:55 (ZULU)

Anything worth saying is worth repeating ;))

FatBoy...

Andy's Dad (Ref: .22 Rimfire).

The info you may be looking for is in the middle of this page:

http://www.tnssa.org/mpdrift.htm

Plus a bunch more data you may be interested in.

Later,

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 22:32:38 (ZULU)

Michael L

If you are an experienced Highpower shooter go with one of the guns you listed. If not get a fill in the blank Bushmaster, Armalite, Colt etc. Have a free float tube installed by a good gunsmith and buy 4 or 5 cases of Blackhills 75 gr. match bullets. Join your local State Rifle Association and practice whenever possible. The above combination will get you an NRA Expert card and/or points towards a Distinguished badge. Otherwise you will be rebarreling your custom rifle before you are in that class. Just my .02 standard warnings apply.

Jerry

Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 23:25:09 (ZULU)

Brian, that's sad news and my prayers go out to his family and his friends at McMillan for thier loss.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 23:44:32 (ZULU)

Looking for a gunsmith that would be willing to build me a rifle using my Winchester 670 in .30-06 carbine. Looks like Winchester 70 and 670 are different enough that I could not use HS-Precion drop in stock. I'm not a gun expert so I'm not sure what's the difference. Anyhow, I have this 670 just laying around and would like to make it into a decent gun.

Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
PA, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:19:56 (ZULU)

Gents,

Since I'm "hors de combat" for the next few days it's given me the time and chance to play with my gear. First, on the list is setting up my Tactical pack/load bearing gear and figuring just what I need. Mind you, I'm not looking at a full call out, so I just need a load that will get me 3-5 days in the hills with no real special tactical needs. Probably 40-50 rounds ammo, tops. Rain gear, sleep gear, repair/cleaning items. Any suggested items would be helpful.

Am trying to keep the pack weight down. Thinking about 35 pounds max plus my rifle...

You know, "travel light, freeze at night".

Brian, sorry to hear about Mike Barber. Didn't know him personally, but if he is McMillan "family" the loss will be felt. ANOTHER good reason I have never jumped out of perfectly good aircraft.

Broke out my insulated Danner Acadias today, polished and ready to go...seems we went from summer, about 3 weeks of fall, and winter has set in...temp this morn was 24 degrees. Not cold, but definetely "crisp".

Trail guns: Seems the subject has come up locally with some compadres. I use magnum revolvers for hiking. Both 4" guns, a S&W M57 .41 mag. and a Colt Anaconda .44 mag. BOTH superb guns that will stop most any critters we could run into...two and four legged varieties.

Occasionally, my stainless Commander goes along, too. Somehow the idea of hiking/packing and revolvers just go together...Comments?

If you haven't looked at them give Tactical Tools equipment a good look see. I'm building on their "three day assault pack plus" and like it very well. Have to figure how to attach my Luppie 25x to the upper and use the lower as a field expedient rest for my rifle. I'm thinking a cammo case and nylon/velcro straps. Again, any suggestions?

Rich, Lots of great barrel makers out there. George G. likes Rock, I personally use Obermeyer, Hart, and Kreiger. Plenty to chose from. For $400. you should get whatever you want. Since this is a piecemeal project A number of makers offer installation on your action. I can vouch for Hart and Kreigers talents...again, plenty of choices. Take your time, ask questions, shoot other rifles and use what works, NOT what is just hype. Budget one of Bruce Robinson's Mil-Dot Masters, as well. Just started playing with mine, again, and like the idea of not carrying laser or other range finding equipment. Lightens the load.

Will close for now. I'm rambling and not saying much...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:40:38 (ZULU)

Ahhhhh, the joys of breathing 40 degree compressed air for 45 minutes and sweating my arse off in level A again. The new MSA air packs are way kewl. Completed my OSHA Hazmat Tech today. Wasn't quite as involved as NFPA 472 but it was a drain on the brain to recall all that stuff that I had forgotten. Last time I took the course was 94, my how things have changed. Now I have WMD Operations Level, WMD Incident Command, OSHA Hospital Decontamination Operations Level, Decontamination Instructor, SORT Tech Level and OSHA Tech Level. Next is OSHA Incident Command. Would really like to take the full NFPA 472 course sometime. Why in the heck does a 48 year old bald headed, jelly bellied old fart want to keep this torture up?????

If you guys in LEO or Fire need some quality instructors, email me and I'll give you the contacts at EnviroSafe. These guys know thier hockey and all instructors have at least 900 hours training and response experience. They also do advanced arson forensics and investigation classes.

Had spooks here last night. Skayed me really bad, just now getting over it. Course a 90 pound black sniper mutt hiding in the corner of the yard was funny too.

Wes,

If I can get to it, I'll print you out a half dozen or so my of "if the aliens invade" gear lists. You can choose one from carum A, one from carum B, etc. Don't forget the layering concept! Travel light and freeze yo ass off at night dudeski. We ain't young as we used to be. Need to get some young college coed to carry your gear. Or, call Lito's sister!

Boltster out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:50:49 (ZULU)

Wes,

Yep, already got the mil-dot master. Won it in the first raffle here. Won another one in the second raffle, but since I already had one, I forfeited it and let some other lucky sap get it. Great tool though.

Thanks for the poop on the equipment.

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:57:36 (ZULU)

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:57:47 (ZULU)

Sir Wesley...

Premier reticles had a bunch of really neat ALICE cases for the 25x Lupita spotters... have alice clips and all... they might have a few left, give them a call.

John...

Found 6 Tabascos... where? I didn't think you was a "Bin diver"! ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 01:07:02 (ZULU)

Andrew; we get in a rut around here but honestly I believe I'd just trade the 670 and get a stealth or something. I know it's tempting but I'm afraid you'd put more into it than you'd ever get back. OR

Glass bed the lug and free float the barrel. I don't know for sure but the 670 would probably let you use Lito's trigger adjustments found elsewhere on this site. Sand down the stock and hand rub some good oil finish inside and out. Check the crown with a magnifiying lens and if it doesn't look perfect. Ream it just a few thousandths with a cone shaped dremmel too. Get some good weaver bases and some B-Square or old fashioned weaver style rings. But first check all the phases of your safety and be sure there's a safety when there's supposed to be. Tighten the screws front and back and adjust the middle screw (I think it has one). You've got about 25 bucks in it now. IF it doesn't shoot put the bullets as far out as the magazine will allow even if you have factory, begin by pushing them in (loosens the factory crimp) and then knock them out and reseat the proper depth. Likely you'll have that decent gun. And you can use the other 600 to buy you a good scope. IF you want tactical get a M-3 but for general purposes... get you 4.5X14X40 Leupold Tactical Mil dot version. This gun should shoot 2 MOA when you start or I'd can it and get another rifle. (right after you do the dremmel tool crown).

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 02:09:25 (ZULU)

Catshooter, Boltster, and all,

Interesting, would like to see your "when the aliens invade" lists. This, of course, indicates that your have at least SIX different "kits" ready to go at any one time. Survivalist folks must just love you. 'Betcha got some of them "scent blocking surplus suits". You know, the activated charcoal ones that are no longer good, but cost 30 bucks and leave you covered with charcoal...or haven't you broken yours out yet?

Will give Premier a call on the canvas covers for the Luppie. Wifey could jin one up, too.

Yeah, I'm 51 and getting up there, but still not ready to pack it in yet. Lighter is starting to feel better, however...

Discussed the idea with "she who must be obeyed", that I either needed a nordic track to get in shape or a Nordic Bitch as a bearer and auxilliary heat source in our cold weather. You can guess how that suggestion was met;-(

Do have a half hispanic/half german LE counterpart that would work...hmmm. Naw, I like my testicles where they are...

Just added "make ghillie suit" to the list. This ought to keep me going this winter.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 02:44:34 (ZULU)

Rich, I was the lucky sap you let have the mildot master, so I will now return the favor. If'n you are going for a "tactical" rig, look at Howa. Mine is wearing a 20" bbl, and it has all the oomph needed to get out to 1k yds. 168 gr. Sierra HPBTM in front of 46 gr Varget in Winchester cases with standard Winchester primers are clocking 2660 outta that little short tube. It's gotta heckuva long throat, you can't seat the bullets out far enuff to touch the lands and have any in the case neck; just go with the same OAL as the Federal Gold Match and it'll do wonders. Mine prints one hole groups at 100, and Ive been known to get 1.7" groups at 500. I know, it sounds like BS, but I've got witnesses....like Dirty Steve. And, the best part is, I've only got $620 invested in the whole thing. Unless you count the Stoney point target knobs and the bubble level thingie, still, it's under $700. Inexpensive and accurate is way better that expensive and accurate, any day.

Anyway, that's my two ruble worth.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, TX, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 03:35:07 (ZULU)

Wes,

Did Google search for Tactical Tools. Only found an outfit in WA state that makes Kydex holsters, etc. No packs, etc. on the web site. You have an URL maybe?

My son just bought a Lightfighter RAID pack (made by Eagle for Lightfighter). Looks like has the makings of a good 3 day pack. OD in color, pocket for Camelback, zips open, compression straps, sternum strap and covered with MOLLE loops. Think he only paid about $160 for it.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 03:35:14 (ZULU)

Wes,

A few days ago you said something about the surge in the yote population having an effect on the deer pop. I am not sure where in Oregon you are but I'm in extream NE cali not very far from the Oregon border and yotes are a big problem, the deer population is in the toilet. I have been doing my best to fix this problem but to many dogs, not enough time. All this work helping mother nature is making me want to go out and hug a tree...

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
NE , California, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 04:15:51 (ZULU)

Gents,

I went through this scope search thing this spring. US Optics versus Nightforce. Ended up getting another Loopy M3 LR. US Optics fell by the wayside in price and customer service dings; nightforce is on my short list for another project (22x sounds cool until the mirage comes up). So, for the .308...another loopy. This summarizes about two weeks worth of thread, BTW. The bottom line: get quality, get what you need, and spend what you want. The M3 was perfect for where it went.

Nicole is doing good...a bit of a rattle in the lungs, but energy to spare! I'm thinking we got on it early enough not to be a factor--but caution is the best way to err.

There's a Gun show in Barron County--any of you Wisconsinites headin' up there? Me and the boy will be shopping an action for a 6.5 project up that way. The wife has her sights on the JC penny sale--so I got to beat her to the checkbook. Now there's a challenge!!

Rich,

My mother beat that cancer 12 years ago. Been healthy ever since. I agree that modern treatments have come along way--and they work. We will pray your wife finds this to be true as the years go by.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 04:35:35 (ZULU)

Fatboy;

Enlighten me on the Champions Choice Rail thingy. This sounds like a real good fix for what I need!

Thanks

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 05:34:16 (ZULU)

Anybody have experience with the "MALICE" clip system that Tactical Tailor is using?

Looking at their modular leg rig. Be nice to be able to get mission specific pouches for the same rig instead of several different rigs to keep track of.

Thanks

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 05:39:03 (ZULU)

Gents,

Need to correct an ealier error...

Rich, the "three day assault pack plus" is from Tactical Tailor NOT Tactical Tools. Just do a search and they'll pop right up.

Bob, the coyote thing has me worried. Recent reports on the elk population around Yellowstone show it's in the toilet since the re-introduction of the wolf. They are now up to 300 wolves and expect that to grow to 600 in a year or two. Protected animals that eat 25 elk per yer, per animal. Another example of man screwing with mother nature and not having the sense to allow mom nature to correct herself.

Me? I'm going coyote hunting ofter big game season.

All the best,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 06:33:56 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad,

I have a great ballistics program to figure your BC. You said 40 grains at 1250 fps. What is the length of the bullet?

Guys,

Been lurking for awhile. Hate to see some of you at each other's throats. Glad to see you're all still here, though.

I ran out of Winnie Stealths. Pretty hard to find in .308 now. I am working on it.

Finally got my last project straightened out. Sub MOA's now.

Take care,

Echo

sniperecho <sniperecho@yahoo.com>
In, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 07:12:08 (ZULU)

'lito,

You got mail, N/A.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 13:16:39 (ZULU)

Rich,

Regarding that project rifle, suggest Williams Firearms Companys one piece bottom metal. Very high quality for about $250 thru Brownell's. As for barrels, I like the state of Wisconsin's barrels (Krieger, Obermeyer, Rock). Had Jack Krieger put together my tactical stick (Win. M70) and am very happy with it.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 13:28:16 (ZULU)

Hey. How about a class project? Lets come up with a SC Special Rifle. We elect voting members and they select the builder and components and market it somehow...

Is this a possibility?

I go on the road tommorrow. I'll be spotty on here and emails for about a month. Bremerton, San Diego then Yokosuka. I'll keep ya'll posted.

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
Click on my name to visit the leader in tactical marksmanship training - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 14:15:09 (ZULU)

TIME FOR A RIFFLE RAFFLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

On tactical backpacks......

Tactical Tailor makes quality stuff. Blackhawk, London Bridge, Kifaru, Eagle, etc. also make quality stuff. On packs, the best thing to do is set your size (dimensional or cubic inches) and price maximum, and then search for the configuration/pouches and color that you want. You are going to pay a lot for any of the name brand stuff because it is "special".

Military packs....

If you take a good look at the modifications available, the medium ALICE is not bad also. New type frame pads, kidney pads and shoulder straps are actually comfortable.

Civilian hunting packs.....

Do not rule out civilian packs in hunting camo colors and configurations. Cabela's sells a several quality packs. Some folks poopoo non-official 'tactical' or hunting stuff. I currently have black and a woodland el cheapo packs that I got off EBAY that have never had a problem with. If you find a pack that has a decent zipper(preferably no zippers) good fastex buckles, but may not be the quality material you want, buy it and simply re-inforce the weak points.

Civie backpacking packs....

You can search EBAY and get some quality deals on Gregory, Northface, etc. Quality civie packs are light and strong. They are politically correct. You can get a camo cover to put on them when you enter the woods.

Malice clips......

Best dadgum things I have ever used. Costly but great. I have tried paracord, alice clips and cable ties. I am currently changing all of my gear setups to malice clips.

Wes....

I am an confessed gear whore. I never bitch at Doughlady for accessorizing LOL. I buy STUFF, try it out, add/subtract, cut it up, re-sew it and sometimes just throw it away or re-sell it. Actually I am up to seven specific weapons/hunting/DMAT kits now, working on two more. Damn shame the aliens probably will not invade but messing with the STUFF is a hoot.

I use the layer concept; stuff that you need attached to your belt or in your pockets for pure survival/defense based on the environment that you expect to be up to your ass in alligators in, load bearing gear tailored to the weapon system or mission, 72 hour day/assault packs which simply extend the load bearing gear, 7 day bug out gear that extends the day pack.

I don't believe in the charcoal or any scent blocking suits, period. The MOPP suits are barely good for BioChem use, much less to fool a deer that has nostrils that can smell a fart a mile away. I chuckle at the scent suppressive hunting suits and cover scents. First time the folks exhale a breath, they are screwed. Any animal that can smell on a molecular level, ain't going to be fooled that easy.

On ghillie suits.......

Way fun to build! Don't get sucked into an expensive kit. Improvise adapt and you can find the stuff for next to nothing. Master Bowcher has good ghillie info! DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT ALLOW A DOG NEAR YOUR BURLAP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Will increase the cost of your ghillie by about a thousand bucks!!!!!!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 14:20:31 (ZULU)

Rich,

The Champions Choice rail is $12.00 for a 14" Rail, plus about $5 shipping (615)793-4066 or 1-800-345-7179. It;s an american rail, but I think they said both european and americal assessories will fit. You'll have to ask them. The rail stud can be had at http://www.uws.com/HARRISBIPODS/HomePage.html for $8.40 plus like $5 ship. Now you pay someone local or inlet the space for the rail yourself and use a small bit of marine tex or JB's or Acraglas or whatever,,, and glass it into the stock. Cut the screws off and make sure the barrel channel is clear. You can inlets so the forearm cap is kept intact or run it the full length of the forearm. Anyway, my inlet and install cost me $25. So, $17 + $13.40 + $25 = $55,, worst case. If you got the time to inlet and bed it in yourself,, $30.

FatBoy...

Reading this business about the packs it just donned on me that the probably the best thing we ever did is close the archives. A lot of stuff happens between rehashes and keeps us from turning off new people by tellin em to read archives that are 6 years long.:)

The ice fallin off my 120' comm tower is about to wreck my roof this morning. I was out by the 400 early this morning and it's deadly out there. This is gonna be a rough winter on the plains or I miss my guess.

I was approached by a Wyo. Rancher about killin wolves early on this year. He said they could kill em on their own land but had to leave one breeding pair. (who thought that one up?) . But anyway he sounded pretty desperate but it's 400 miles up there and what he wanted would take camping up there all winter I guessed. We painted ourselves in the the corner on a Microwave project and I didn't really have a way to get away. He hasn't called me for a while so something may have happened, but it does look like Mother Nature is foolin with em up there.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 15:05:06 (ZULU)

Another thought; Perhaps we should publish some more articles on basic tactical rifles scopes, rifles, barrels, binoculars, range finders, bedding methods, spotting scopes, packs, hydration systems, bullets, cases, boresighting devices, mounts & rings, triggers, adjustment of triggers,drag bags, bipods & caliber's for tactical rifles that meet the "general consensus" (is that an oxymoron?) here. I like Gooch's idea of a SC rifle, we might start there and see if anybodys still here when we get through trying to agree on that one. I'm really livin dangerous here but how bout anyone submitting an article on each subject and having this "dubiously honored board" try to agree on which information becomes a part of the final works to be posted as an article we subscribe too. Realizing all the while that we already have some hard as a rock information in there already. Just for thought! BUT.... it might be that the very fact we seldom reach consensus on anything is the best cause of the wide range of information we have here. Who knows?

P.S. There probably should be no cat receipes in there now really!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 15:23:46 (ZULU)

Wes, On trail guns.. 4" model 29 with 250 grain Keith SWC over 20 grains of 2400.. clocks 1250 out of my 6" barrel. Should handle anything needing kilt... Oh I wouldn't dare make donut jokes. Cause here in Texas we ate Tacos not donuts!!

I got my scope back from Springfeild. I wrote them that the windage turret turns while firing the rifle. They sent it back saying they adjusted the parallax. Now how is adjusting the paralax gunna stop the windage turret from turning while shooting? Gunna take it to the range and shoot it and send the target back with the scope so they can see it is a windage change and nothing more. I was really PO'ed when I read what they did and totally diregarded the information in the letter I sent..

Dirty Steve, Out..

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 15:29:52 (ZULU)

Its taken me all afternoon to catch up on this weeks posts.

Dirty Steve, all you 'mericans are immigrants, ( unles your a native) The US has always been a multicultural society, with sub cultures from many different nations, be it Irish, Italian, English, German whatever, the difference bieng that they where American first. Many (by no means all) of the immigrants these days( in what ever country the emigrate to) have no interest in fitting in, learning the language, appreciating the culture or abiding by the laws of the land. The ones that do are ok by me ( I'm one of them)the rest can go back where they came. The worst thing that could happen to Western Europe was the dismantling of the iron curtain, it kept a lot of crap out.

Jon, gottch, copy than on the lenses, i'll contact the manufacturer, thanks bud'

The shooting community of the United States of America, need to unite and stand as one, be they long range, short range, palma, cowboy action, pistol, hunter, what ever. Jon Beardsleys wise words of warning regarding the situation in the UK sould be heeded by everyone.

JR, Yep callum fergison is WAAAYYY expensive, but like Mercedes Benz, he sells on his reputation and always find people willing to pay, me i'll take the Volkswagen any day. He is probably Europes best custom rifle smith though.

GW, me no sleepy.. i work all day (and night at times) and stay awake all night too, well, truth be know, i cat nap, i have an ability to make my self semi conseouse, i sort of sleep, but i catch whats going on around me, just wish there was some pig activity to catch, 20.00 hrs last night to 07.30 this morning i was in the woods, it pissed down with rain and i saw my old friend the fox, (with the large white tip on his tail) the one that has stayed alive , by me thinking, "If I shoot him, i'll spoil my pig chances"well, he survived again, and i saw no pig, The pigs have so much food to choose from in the woods right now, the storms have dropped crab apples and acorns all over the place, and mushrooms are abundant, they don't need to go near my piggie bait, i'm giving it a rest until it gets frosty and the ground is hard and the pigs are hungry, maybe then i will be able to see to stalk them at night, right now there is still to much foliage.

Chris, you got your better half interested in the shooting then eh? its time i got my email back home up and running, and she can tell Anke exactly how cool shooting is, mine doesn't liuke the noise? ah well, she is at a boxing tournament ( no she ain't in the ring,) with her mate tonight, then they are off dancing, I'm driving up there after work and meeting em at the disco, i't will have been a long 2 days by the time i get to bed. Say hi to yours from mine will ya.

Don Smith, damn trophy hunters, does taste better than bucks !! exactly what would it cost me to get to Alabama from Germany, and how much are 200 doe tags?

Marco, the pardy is on Saturday !!! you got the date wrong, so you need to carry on direction fatherland after the gun show ! and bring yer sleeping bag(s).

Joe Mahon, good for you buddy, hunting is top..

Chase, I heared that the guy held on the tarmac t the airport was for furs or animal skins or some citties (sp) shit, dunno if thats right..

Charles S Hunt, I'll dig out what i can on Liosenfeld for ya, i don't think much to em, but i know some who do, they are one or the lesser known, cheaper makes or german/ european scopes. no web site, and hard to find info on, not very popular here.

Wes. 35 wheelan sound good to me,

JR, like lito and the others said, Brownells ARE CHEAPER , tell your pop he should visit you in that wonderfull country where you now reside.

I see the Ruskies killed two "germans"in Chechenien,both fighting for the reb's, one was a turk with a German pass ( guess the ruskies don't like kebabs) and the other was same but ? moroccan? Couple of big firms bieng investigated here for supplying certain terrorist harbouring countries with technologie, these terr's must love the germans. well thats all thats new from Germanistan this week, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
germanistan - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 16:13:04 (ZULU)

On Tactical Tailor stuff,

I bought several their items from U.S.Tactical Supply,

http://www.ustacticalsupply.com/

Great outfit, I always got good service from them. As for products, I had Tactical Tailors's Super Strap and Super Belt, which replaced straps and kidney pad from ALICE pack. They are much more comfortable than the original. As for MALICE clips, I had them but havn't had the chance to use them yet. But the clips are very well built. The thing that I like most is their Tac-Sling, very sturdy and easy to use.

I don't have any experience with their 3-day pack, but I remembered on DR long time again someone said that the zipper could open if the pack is top heavy? I maybe wrong so don't quote on it.

Jessie

Jessie Chang <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, 98155 - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 16:51:24 (ZULU)

Peter, I was born here therefore I am a "Native American" not an "Indian" but a Native. If you dispute my being a native American. We can take this back many many years. When man first evolved we began life in Africa and man then spread to the Mediteranean and on into Europe. From there throughout the rest of the world. So how far back must we go to be a "Native" of a country? If your born there your a NATIVE period. Following any other line of reason would allow me to sue for Slavery Reparations like the libs. Since we all stem from Africa and Slaves were taken from Africa, I would be entitled to reparations as well. Loose immagration laws has brought our country down. Allowing it to continue would be wrong. I aint into any PC crap. My mother is from Germany and my fathers lineage can only be traced back to Eastern Virgina (1860). My mother learned the language so why can not these people. I arrested a guy yesterday who has been in this country for 8 yrs could not speak the language he had no dricvers license and no insurnace for his truck, He went to jail, didn't pass GO and failed to collect his $200. I have no problem with some one wanting to come to this country and becoming a mechanic, welder, plumer, doctor or veternarian. Coming to work for under the table money drinking and placing a burden on local hospitals and the welfare programs aint cutting it. Oh, my mothers family was split by the wall it helped keep riff raff out of the East. Namely me, but I did go in for several visits. They had secure borders, I like their idea off border security.

Damn I rambled.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 17:04:08 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just some posts and back to my projects...still got the "leans" so have to be careful.

Steve, I agree with you on immigration. Come work, learn the language, and become American. NOT keep your language, poor work ethic, and bad habits used to beat our "system". Like you, I see this too, every day. We could do something about it, but government won't do a damn thing.

On trail guns...that M29 and load sounds perfect. We see eye to eye on that one. Load is damn good, too.

Assault Pack +plus from Tac Tailor: Mine has fastex buckles in additions to the zippers, so no accidental openings. Went the full meal deal on mine and is complete with hydration pack, top of the line straps, etc. I AM getting older and need my "creature comforts". Still working on the "Nordic Bitch", however.

Pete L., You'ld like the .35 Whelan Ackley Improved. Euro equivelent is the 9.3 X 62. Another damn fine cartridge!

Bolt, "gear whore" is a bit harsh. Try "Tactical Tester and enthusiastic survivalist"! That's got a ring to it!

Agree with the layer concept. Used it to good effect on active duty. Those things you can afford to drop are in the outer layers...

Bob, On the coyote/wolf/deer/elk issues. The canines seem to be much more adaptable to change that the "tasty snack" bretheren they hunt.

Part of the problem. The other is they are under hunted, trapped, etc.

Sounds like we are part of the solution. Think I'll go hug a fir tree now...

All for not, gents. Am enjoying our new topics and the fact that we are back to "normal"...whatever that is/was...;-)

Anyone see the Dennis Ermy take on the new USMC camoflauge? Looks like it's gonna be GREAT! Computer generated pixel pattern. Will look good in the closet next to my spetznatz camo coveralls!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:13:47 (ZULU)

Folks - misc items:

Gooch: class project - good idear. You hawgs come up with a mix. Once we all settle on the mix. We can turn around and raffle it - that way we can pay the builder to build it- and have some fun :)

Wildcats: All this talk about variations of 6mm, 7mm, etc - got me to thinking. Looking at the 338 caliber family - has the 338 -'06 combination been tried (talk about lots of barrel life) - or perhaps taking the .300WM and opening it up to 338. Seems like that case would be able to launch 250 grainers at a respectable velocity. Not to mention again - better barrel life.

Raffle status: The gun is ready, Sandy has the site ready - so -

WHEN DO YOUNZ WANT TO TURN ON THE RAFFLE? HOW ABOUT - SAY MONDAY 04-NOV-2002..???

KenM: "pussification.." LMAO --- I was laughing to myself at work yesterday about that one. Someone asked what was so funny - I said - nahhh never mind... it's 'gun subcultural thing'

Kids, etc: our daughter is off to college now. We filled that empty gap with a dog. Less maintenance, and more obedient. Bolt - don't worry - my ghillie suite hangs up out of her reach.

SemperFi Hawgs ...need to go cut some firewood. Gonna be cold here in NorthernVa this winter...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, us of a - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:15:14 (ZULU)

I like the Idea on the SC rifle. How about getting GA Precision to do a Prodcution run of the "ROCK" in either .308 or .300 WSM with special markings. Only registered DR members could get them. We can choose are own glass, or use the M3 LR gen II's. Light accurate, and built like a brick sh@#%$$&*t house.

I ran accross a HOWA heavy barreled rifle in .308 for $289 used. Looks dirty but are they worth rebarreling? Looks like a Remington, does the Remington accessories like badger, trigger, etc and such work???

Take Care

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:34:17 (ZULU)

SHOT SHOW: Hey guys, looks like I might get to go for the 1st time. Anybody else planning on going ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:41:24 (ZULU)

Ken; lemme know if she stays gone. Then tell me how you did it.

Pete; Out here in the WWW (wild wild west).We think of ourselves as Conquestadors. We just haven't finished the job yet. Sounds like Steve is still workin on it.

Raffle? bring it on!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:44:07 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, you didn't ramble man, i agree, i was thinking same thing, my lineage is suppose to go back across to Scandinavia, but who knows, we can trace it back so far and there is a connection you your former president.

I would say any one who moved after the industrial revolution would be an immigrant, but you could draw the line any where you wanted. Yep to fitting in, The wall was good, they should have re built it along the banks of the river oder. Where 's your Mum from?

I had a road rage incident with a damn ruskie immigrant only yesterday, the son of a bitch wanted some violence, was thumping on my car and threatening to kill my ass, the sight of my Browning 9mm shut the shit up, I reported the incident to the local police. I seem to attract these bastards, this must be the 4th or 5th run in I've had with an ivan over the last 3 years, maybe its cos i went hang my head and scuttle away like a typical pascifistic abused german.

Wes. 9.3x62 great round, very popular here.

Titan, me thinks Rem bases fit Howa, but i'm not 100%..

right guys, time to hit the road.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
Germanistan - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 19:05:01 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on my 670. Got some thinking to do.

Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
PA, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 20:15:57 (ZULU)

Ken, Gooch,

REF: Class Project--

Let's start by arguing about use/ caliber:

I say this stick could end up on some Department's wish list (or in their vault), so it needs to be a stick that would pass most criteria for a shrpshooter's tool.

That limits the "target" rounds viability (ie 6.5x284 and other odd-ball not readily available stuff with accuracy but not necessarily "penetration"); it will be shot a bunch, so fodder and match needs to be readily available; familiarity with existing systems is a good angle to pursue. Off the shelf factory ammo is a must, as is after market extras.

I say .300WSM, since this is an up and comer cartridge; we get the strenght of a medium/ short action, and well, hell--I want one. But I still say that the cartridge needs to be one of the standard rounds currently is use. Nobody will want it if there ain't supporting data readily available and understood.

Unless 'lito can talk Loopy into making a cam for whatever odd-ball round we finally decide on...

The next argument will center on the action. We'll end up adopting a remmy 700 due to the availability of smiths and accessories that will make it more betterer...badger bottom ends and lugs, et-al. But it'll be fun hearing some dissent. The Barrel arguments will be enlightening--I will take notes for my projects, and the stock--same thing. I like HS stocks, but I've only used McM's on my gas gun--they seem good on that application--but I am all ears for suggestions.

I have my note pad standing by to capture all the great ideas yous guys gen-up.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 20:28:10 (ZULU)

Bill Moore, Goodview,VA.

You have mail. N/A

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 20:29:03 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Just to start off on the feft foot, why not a M70 receiver? Is the 700 that much more prevalent? I never understood, even before this project was mentioned.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 20:33:14 (ZULU)

Gooch's Class Project....Hell Yes!!! Awesome idea, not just to raffle one off, but maybe then have produced like a L.E.G.P. (limited edition group purchase...lots of boards do this like AR15.com, etc)

JR,

You have mail 'bout barrels and other goodies....

One more sorta' obscure question...

Any of youse hawgs Wyomingans? (proper term?). I might be applying for a (dream) job in the Laramie area and just have some questions fer 'ya.

Later,

Rich S.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 21:10:40 (ZULU)

To get the action going:

Still sticking with 308 cause there is good factory match ammo,

Sub-Minute stock with adjustable LOP,

Rem 700 action,

Badger bottom metal/base/rings,

Rock 5R barrel,

Loopy M3 GEN2,

Custom removable match iron sights,

Anti-cant level,

Undude sling,

Harris Pod with Pod-Lock,

Set of match dies based on chamber,

Delivered in a custom hard case with 2 cases of Black Hills Match 175's!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 21:47:53 (ZULU)

Bolt, I think that you got it! (I don't know about the extra iron sights though)

I would have George or his "Ace in the hole" Eric put it together. I have a number of their rifles, and they sing!

Michael

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 22:04:58 (ZULU)

Bolt - I like your selections except I would like the HS mag system. Ok I will now duck for incoming.

Maybe we could get Eagle or Blackhawk to do dragbag/shooting mats engraved with the SC logo, and Otis cleaning kits. Because of the possible use as a duty rifle, have the choice of .308 or .300WSM. Also choice of Stock color, but make all of the finishes in the black teflon George uses. Having the spacer system and a matching cheek pack would be a must.

At least I am not suggesting AR-10T's...........

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 22:17:38 (ZULU)

Michael,

>>> Bolt, I think that you got it! (I don't know about the extra iron sights though) <<<

Ahhh, back up irons are a great idea. Then he can use it for any/any on match days mang.

I'd maybe throw a 4" rail in starting where the rear stud would be and moving back toward the trigger. Gives you a little veratility that you'd otherwise not have at a cost on nothing. Otherwise,, it all comes down to which stock you like and how much barrel weight you're willing to carry.

I do like the idea of some type of roll stamp, only for SC members. Something done the way Georges' GA Precision barrel stamp is done.

THEN,, when Bolt REALLY gets sick with long range prone-itis,, he can get a McProne stock and have it bedded for the same rifle, which he'll keep in a bag that containes a torque wrench, his Warner sights and iris adjustes, a barrel wrench and a switch barrel chambered in 6.5x284 so he can get the job done when the wind is blowing. ;))

Scoped of course,,,, if he has a 308 with irons,and is shooting with a jacket, does that make him a Palma Fag? ;))) EXACTLY,, that's why I use richly named wildcats.

Ohhh, what a wicked web we weave....

Titan,

NOTHING sticks to the teflon. If you're gonna cammo it,, it's gonna be tied on.

FatBoy...

Rotund One,

You gots it mang! Plus, when you're out in the boonies and yer optics take a pill you can slap on the irons and keep shootin the aliens! I like the rail system ideeee also.

Also, want to modify the Pod so that it swivels AND rotates side to side. I am woiking on a design for that problem now.

Titan,

Just say no to mags!

Also,

We could add a super duper laser range finder, an MRE heater with attached cappachino maker, a pocket DVD player for when the aliens are napping, and a full set of Tracy Lords movies!

I still like the Nordic Bitch idea!

Homework for tonight for you younguns that want info on gear:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Bug+Out+Bag+&btnG=Google+Search

I want a 5 page, single spaced essay before class tomorrow!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 23:05:52 (ZULU)

You can sure tell it's Sat. nite!:) Do we get a humvee to mount that puppy on?

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 23:09:52 (ZULU)

Boltster,

The cappachino maker came up before,, when Sinister Dave and I were going over the RAS system for a build up AR-10 that Titan got me thinking of... Funny how things come full circle ;)) I think it was agreed that the powder pack to keep the coffee pot going was going to be too heavy,,, but you'll still have folgers crystels to much on. If you gots Tracy Lord movies that are prior to her final,, you gots collector items mang.... Don't wear them out. And yes,, play, rewind, play, rewind, play, rewind,, is BADDDD for movies. ;))

So,, 7mm mag shooter,, i KNOW you're out there,,, how many rounds you getting from a tube and what's are ya shooting?

PeteL,

Told Elen and Coda hi for the Misses and the two wee ones. I agree,, it IS time for you to get the internet up at the house.... speaking of which,, you done with that balcony yet? How's about that shop in the basement?

FatBoy...

Gents,

Wow! A Rifle Raffle and class project! Too cool!

I'm pretty firmly wedded to the .308 for tactical use...because it works. Can't see the .300 WSM or big magnums in that role...except in a special case. Let's face it, 99.9% of the time the old .308 gets the job done. Couple that with the multitude of rounds available for the chambering. It just doesn't get better than this...

Stock: I would opt for one of the new McMillan GPC patterns with the new adjustable check piece(that stays put). Add an accessory rail and a adjustable LOP/recoil pad and you're there.

Action: Remmie...they work. Second choice would be pre-'64 M70

Barrel: AMTU/#10 taper with the choice of length. I prefer 26"

Sling: One of Mike's Tactical wonders AND a leather Turner Saddlery sling for us traditionalists.

Badger Bottom metal, mounts, and rings.

Parker-Hale Bi-Pod

An anti-cant device? Never used one myself and seem to do all right. Would like your views on this...who uses them or is it just a "cool accessory".

Dewey cleaning rod and accessories.

Pelican 1750 travel vault.

Include a set of Redding Comp dies and you have an ideal rig.

That about sums up the rifle.

Now, to the "Nordic Bitch": 5'2", 38DD, honey blond hair in short bob,

able to pack at least our sleep gear and latte' maker...;-)

Never had one, but there was this Swedish gal in Spokane...

All for now,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 23:52:43 (ZULU)

The Lee Marvin, Bob Keeshan thing is urban legend according to:

http://www.snopes.com/military/keeshan.htm

Origins: We can't say for sure whether actor Lee Marvin ever related something like the story described above to Johnny Carson on the Tonight Show (Marvin was a guest on the show seven times during Carson's tenure as host), but the details of the anecdote are undeniably false.

Lee Marvin did enlist in the U.S. Marines, saw action as Private First Class in the Pacific during World War II, and was wounded (in the buttocks) by fire which severed his sciatic nerve. However, this injury occurred during the battle for Saipan in June 1944, not the battle for Iwo Jima, which took place several months later, in February 1945. (Marvin also did receive a Purple Heart, and he is indeed buried at Arlington National Cemetery.)

Bob Keeshan, later famous as television's "Captain Kangaroo," also enlisted in the U.S. Marines, but too late to see any action during World War II. Keeshan was born on 27 June 1927 and enlisted two weeks before his 18th birthday, months too late to have taken part in the fighting at Iwo Jima. A 1997 interview with Keeshan noted that he "later enlisted in the U.S. Marines but saw no combat" because, as Keeshan said, he signed up "just before we dropped the atom bomb."

Last updated: 1 August 2002

Rod Regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 23:56:33 (ZULU)

Wes, I have used the Scope Level and I don't like them. May work for some, but just something else to watch. If you want one you can have mine for shipping cost.

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 00:42:13 (ZULU)

Bolt; you and Titan did good but let try this. A .308 Stainless 700 VSS with a 18" barrel. It would use B-square mounts and be sporting a Sheperd P2 and a pair of forked sticks for a bipod. A length of Air Conditioner hose tubing with camo tape on it to hide the stainless. A cut of rubber from an old tire tube for a scope cover. And one of those Miracle Nylon slings from Wally world or a surplus leather military sling. It would be crowned with a cone shaped dremmel tool and be sporting the factory barrel naturally. Use a Walmart gun sock to protect it and a length of cotton rope in case you need to drag the gun sock behind.

I'm kiddin for Christsake! But I just shot a couple of 3" groups at 600 yards with one just like this last Friday! Eat your heart out George and Jerry!

Seriously you grunts don't pay no attention to me, you guys are doing great!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 00:44:10 (ZULU)

Chris, if either you or Sinister get a line on some SR-25 FF RAS I will take two. I got my hands on one from a SR-25 about a year ago and it bolts right up to the AR-10T's. The pisser is Kinghts will not or has not released any in part form for sale, eventhough they publish a part number for a kit. The AR-15 models are out but not the bigger ones. Unlike the round tubes the SR-25 model it bigger so the top rail lines up with the reciever. I went over this in detail on AR-15 .com about 6 months ago or so. I would love to have one for the .300SRUM AR-10 project that I am working on.

Brogers - don't forget the OD duct tape for attaching the Surfire to the Shepturd for night work. Which reticle do I pick again?????? I can't remember........LOL Bill.

I got some AR-10 mags from Armalite recently, and they are now using a feed lip modification on the new production that is identical to the one I have been using for years. Maybe they did read my emails after all.......

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 01:50:11 (ZULU)

10-4 Officer! Duct tape I forgot!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 03:32:09 (ZULU)

Peter, You can trace your heritage back to one of our Presidents, You don't mean Clinton do you? Hhaha.. Sorry Couldn't pass that up..

Hey the 300 WSM necked up to 338 sounds really good but an official rifle should be done in military calibers. Just my humble opinion. 50 BMG is official military stuff, hahha.

I need a few Fastex bukles for a project. Does Michaels carry these? If not would fabric shops? I wanna trick out my pack with kool fasteners for my scope and shooting mat.

WES, "Now, to the "Nordic Bitch": 5'2", 38DD, honey blond hair in short bob,able to pack at least our sleep gear and latte' maker...;-)"

Isn't she the sleeping gear and latte' maker?

Works getting crazy folks can not drive but still try even in wet weather. We are up to 754,000 calls for the year so far. We have 1 million folks in this town and it seems each one wants to call the police once per year.

Dirty Steve, Out...

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 05:07:57 (ZULU)

John,

The consensus is to use push feed on a tac-rig. The pre-64 is on one of my favorite riffles; and I may use it for a project here right soon too. But the push-feeds give an option--tossing a round in the chamber in a pinch--that could damage the extractor on a controlled feed after a while (yeah then big ol' claws will wear after abit of this). The M70 push, like the stealth's, ain't a bad way to go, but the 700 has a whole bunch of toys already on the after-market ready to go. More= cheap. More of less. Haha. And getting a stock inletted for the 700 opens alot of choices...everyone builds one or two, eh?

DBM? For this? Nawwwww. Let's not build a tuning nightmare into this already!

Now if we build a 308 and 300 option, are we going long action? Why not 308 and 300 wsm? That way both sticks will have a shorter action, more better IMHO.

Nothing at the show worth the money to buy. One guy had a barrelled action, M700 and claimed it had a 5R--first thing that got me wondering was the 26" length. Then, I wondered what that sixth ridge was doin' in there...but I just chuckled and went on my way. Who knows what it wuzzz, but a 5r it wudn't. And man, are those mausers climbing in price. Shoulda bought them out of that box full last year!! I'm thinking the gunshow is a ploy for retailers anymore. Been awhile since I went to one...and this one disappointed.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 05:10:22 (ZULU)

A "Class project"??? HA!, Double HA!!

Dang, Mang... this raggity bunch can't agree on anything ;))

Sir Wesley...

>"Now, to the "Nordic Bitch": 5'2", 38DD, honey blond hair in short bob, able to pack at least our sleep gear and latte' maker...;-)"<

See! I Tol' you so...

... make it - "Nordic Bitch": 5'10", 36C (I know what 38DDs look like when the straps come off :(( no thank you), honey blond hair (Red heads will do in a pinch), straight and long, down her back. And like Dirty Steve said, she IS the "sleep gear and latte' maker" ;)

To class project sticks, it needs to be built on a Remchester M70/0 action, with a complete set of hot swappable barrels in .308, 300WM, 6.5x284, and .260 (and two sizes in each caliber, 28" for the real shooters, and 16" for the fast draw crowd).... optics to be a USO made "EXACT" copy of the MK4-M3 with two sets of controls... both M3 cams and M1 1/4moa turrets (for those that can't make up their mind), and it must get final inspection by Tabasco.

Stock... a Choat copy of the McMillan A-2, with the forend of a "Marksman", and the thumb wheel cheekpiece from Anschutz. Camo pattern should come from stickie papre (like shelf wrap) so it can be changed at will, depending on area of deployment.

Case to be the new Blackhawk "Ridgid dragbag" with power assist wheels both front and back, with built in peltier heater/cooler to keep ammo at a constant temperature.

That's just a start... should be built by at least eleven gun makers, so no one feel left out.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 11:24:53 (ZULU)

New Remingtons...

Last night, I took delivery of a Rem 700 Clasic in .221 Fireball that I had ordered three months ago. This is the first factory M700 field rifle I have bought in many years.

The dealer and I went over it, and:

The stock looks ok, the grain is dark filled

... but the wood looks like Mo-ha-gany, then stained walnut. The checkering didn't fill the patern, so I will have to hand cut it this winter to finish what they should have done.

The action had belt sander marks on the bridge that weren't taken off with the final polish (?? Polish, at Remington, that's an oximoron!). The "polish" was un-even on the action, so some parts (mostly over the bridge) was duller than the rest of the action. :((

No polish on the barrel either... a fine cut, but straight off the lathe :( !!

The crown is very clean... a dish crown with a very slight (.02) countersink, so that's good.

The barrel seems to have all the rifling, though shooting will tell!

The new "lockable" bolt sucks! I had already ordered a replacement "old style" bolt shroud, and put it in last night.

I also noticed the following... in the old rifles, it you just brought the bolt handle up and down, it would be enough to cock it... with the new one, you have to pull the bolt back a few millimeters to catch the pin release... was the same with both bolt shrouds, and I recall another Rosterfarian saying the same thing.

I may not get to shoot it this year... I forgot to order brass and dies... the rass will be here on Wednesday, but the dies are two weeks away, and it's getting cold to do benchwork :((.

Mang, some one at Remington should get a 20 year old Rem and look at how it's finished.

Unfortunatly... this was the "pick of the litter", so I'll keep it cuz it'll do what I want, but Rem needs to get a wake up call.

See... I actually DO buy Remingtons, and I'll criticize my own!

By the way... I saw "Pulp Fiction" on the TV last night for the first time... will someone PLEASE tell me why that POS won so many awards.

Maybe the white-bread hollywood types are so intimidated by words like "N*gg*r" and "Moth**F**ker... that if you make a move that has both words about every other second, they figger it's a underclass political statement, and are afraid to pan it... whatta piece of junk movie!

Maybe it's just that I'm getting old, and like a plot, a storyline, good editing, good special effects, and decent acting... and drugs and useless shootings and blood are getting to be clichéd.

Pack me off to the nursing home ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 11:53:23 (ZULU)

Joe,

I'll have to check my rifles, I thought all my M70s' were push feed. None of 'em have the mauser type claw extractor. Confused for sure. I get it about the "drop a round in". I do it more often than I stuff the mag. Is the Rem. easier to work on or stronger or just plain more available?

'lito,

When you close the bolt does it release the trigger? All of my older ones (pre-bolt lock) will. Hold the trigger down and close the bolt and the pin releases. Is this better than dry firin?

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 12:35:48 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Yesteray I was reading that some shooters are having trouble with WSM cartridges in M70 and M700 actions. Something about there not being enough barrel left around the case/chamber, and when it''s fired the receiver momentarily swells at the threaded section. The brass swells to meet the size of the new larger chamber and when the chamber shrinks back down after the pressure lets off, you get a stuck bolt or VERY hard extraction. It's reported to be worse with the winchesters, as the remingtons are supposed to have a slight bit more meat around the barrel threads.

Anyone of ya'll WSM shooters expierence anything like this?

FatBoy...

Sumpin I just don't understand.....

The 6.5x284 appears to be one of the best rounds ever developed for long range. There is even factory ammo available. Which, indirectly means that it would be a great hunting round also. WHY don't the manufacturers offer a factory riffle for this round? Heck, I would even buy a Ru..Ru..uuggg..ggeee, well you know what gun I'm talking about, if they would chamber a factory rifle for it. It seems really really stoopid that all they have to do is take an 06 action and put a different barrel on it to have one of the best guns out there. People have bought the 300Ultra, 7STW, 300WSM and 7mmWSM, why the hell don't they think that people would buy a gun chambered for a round that beats the hell out of all the preceeding???????????? If I'm missing something here please advise!

Yep, I am a bitcher and proud of it, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 13:49:41 (ZULU)

Damn guys,

The SC rifle is supposed to be AFFORDABLE to actually buy by folks other than an independantly wealthy millionare. Keep the thing basic. Good ideas though.

Win or Rem dont matter to me. But other than that it should be a practical, tactical rig not a bench rest gun. If we do this right the builder should be able to market the thing as a field rig. In my mind it should be a George, Marty, Andy Webber conspiracy.

Catch you guys later. Hit the road in a few hours.

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
Click on my name to visit the leader in tactical marksmanship training - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 14:11:14 (ZULU)

Bolt,

My GUESS is that Winchester put an ass load of money into developing the WSM family and has put a lot of their future stock into it's success. If they introduce the 6.5x284win, they'll cut the legs out of the smaller WSM's. NOW, winch is gonna release the 6.5 in a WSSM (Winchester super short magnum). WTF is up with that? It'll should look like a big PPC.

Reports from the 6.5-300WSM wildcat,, 650 rounds per barrel,,,, but I may not get much over that the way things are looking now. MAN am I hard on throats...

Gooch,

Have a safe trip man. Hope to see you checking in from time to time.

FatBoy...

Gooch,

As always, very good point. Take care but have fun, it oughta be a great trip and huge learning experience as well. I'm jealous. The training community will be shortchanged w/o you.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 14:57:21 (ZULU)

Guys, there's a new smith out there I need to tell ya'll about.

His name is LEO CONRING. Was an MC S/S but then got out. Went to 'smith school in Colorado and studied some with John Nowlin (.45 guy). Went back in the Corps later as an armorer and worked at the Precision Weapon Shop at Quantico. I.E. Building the Corps Sniper rifles and Competition guns. Great friends with the Hathcocks.

He just opened his own shop near Spotsylvania, VA. Jim Ed Land and Gunny Jim Owens are good friends as well. I also understand that he and Eric at Georges place are great friends also. Norm Chandler just tried to hire him. Leo turned him down.

He built me a stick I have yet to receive because he is going to use it as a promo for his website when he gets it up.

I sent Leo all the components for my rifle and he has taken his time putting it together at his own pace. (It's not like I don't have anything to shoot). It was the last rifle he built before leaving the MC. I asked him how it shot and I think it was akin to asking if his mom was kinky.

I'll get some pics up somewhere when it comes in.

(OD MCMillan A3 w/ cheekpiece, bedded metal inserts for the swiv/studs - MIKE BARBER r.i.p. - built this stock for me), 22" Schneider, HUGE recoil lug, DD Ross double screw rings, DDR rail w/ 8-40s, DDR bottom metal. MC A4 bedding, specs etc).

Leo is one fine fellow and will talk guns all day. Reminds me a whole lot of George. Same kind of man. Great work. Hardened rifles. Realistically priced. Been on both sides of the fence. Actually WAS a SNIPER. Not trying to make a whole years salary on one rifle sale. Honest. Goes to church. Not scum like me. He is a good friend.

I'll keep ya'll posted.

I know there is a lot of competition out there and $ can bring out the worst in folks. But I believe George and Leo are cut from the same cloth. Hell, call Eric and ask him about Leo if you need to.

JUST A THOUGHT - Since he's trying to get started, maybe you guys could consider letting him build the SC stick. If not, maybe he could do one for us in the future ? like I said ... just a thought.

I know George is a friend to all here including myself and everyone has their loyalties and I like George Gardner and Marty Bordsen just fine.

Just putting the info out there. A quality 'smith with a conscience in the VA area.

By all means, tell him who sent ya.

CONRINGS PRECISION WEAPON SYSTEMS # 804.632.1111 FAX 804.632.1112

21328 Penola Rd.

Ruther Glen VA. 22546

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 15:16:00 (ZULU)

Chris, I have a 300WSM laminate stock, heavy stainless barrel, control feed Model 70 and it's great. No problems with any ammo factory or otherwise. Some asshole gunshop commando is making shit up for whatever reason. The Rugers, Dakotas and Sakos are available in 338Lapua, 416 Rigby and the Dakota calibers, which are all larger then the WSM's and I've never heard any problems and I've shot the Sakos in 416Rigby and 338Lapua with STOUT loads. Some asswit is just loading his ammo too hot cause he's stupid. Or he used a screw that was too long on the scope base and it's intruded into the bolt lug raceways binding up the locking lugs. Look for a nice shiny wear/gall line on the outer edge of the bolt lugs for this one.

I've never had any problems with the controlled feed actions and single loading. You bevel the edge of the extractor and then you press in on the extractor body(the piece that rides along the bolt) as it rides forward over the rim of the round and it snaps right over, no problems. I don't think this is as big a deal as people make it out to be. #1 I always have the mag full and if I need more than 5 rds I'll be going to the M16 about the time the mag runs out, at which point I'm going to be forgetting all about the big, heavy, hard to point, over scoped, manually operated cannon. #2 I don't have any peculiar ammo varietys to be shot on short notice like in a "select slug" shotgun drill. We might need AP and I keep some tracer on hand, but it won't be one of those things where the extra 2 seconds is gonna matter IMO. Besides, it'll probably be wiser to load a bunch i the mag in case your AP bounces off or the machine gunners/squad leaders/whomever don't see your first tracer cause it's a dark star. But hey, whatever's clever. I've seen guys get double loaded rifles with M40A1's that NEVER would have happened with controlled feed guns. And I might see some stuff that happens with controlled feed guns that won't happen with push feed. A competent shooter can make either one work, and work well.

Class rifle? Hmm, I'm thinking that a hand tweaked FN SPR would be really nice. Chambered in 6.5-284. BH makes ammo and Hornady will be shortly, I'm expecting. Getting ammo won't be that huge a problem for police and I've already told about how military operations are going to be run what you brung so ammo won't be a major problem for us either, IMO, with a little change in the attitude of the HQ slugs. That nice hard chromed barrel should go 4K+ rounds and that's plenty. Performance will leave 308 in the dust, which is going to be nice at the long assed distances endemic to paces like N Iraq and NK. Allows lots of stand-off, which is good when the CAS bubbas drop CBU's which have huge danger areas because they shotgun effect, complete with fliers, that will head unerringly for your hide site. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 15:21:11 (ZULU)

KenM,

Chrome lined bore for the 6.5x284,, NOW you're onto something ;))

I wouldn't look for BH or any of the manufactureres to be selling bright bullets. Seems the brights had some unexpected presure problems, which would be consistent with my expierence. Most of the FagMag shooters use MOLY anyway,, save for myself and two or three others I've seen,, from about 50 shooters. Hornady is gonna sell some factory shit huh,,,, Hope they clean that brass up prior to sale,, or NO ONE will be able to chamber the stuff. I got a report from a shooter who's used some of the Hornady brass. Says it looks like crap but shoots as well as the winchester.

I'm beginning to think the 7-300WSM chambered for the 180 berger VLD's, is what I'm gonna run with. A 1:9" twist 30" to 32" barrel in a prone stock with a 70/0 magnum action. IF I can get 2K from a barrel, I'll flute. I may also try some of the Cartarucio (sp??) 156gr VLD's. They're supposed to have a BC of like .68 or some damn thing like that. If they fly right, it might help to cut down on some of the recoil. If not,, I'll keep looking for the perfect round.

I still love the 6.5x284 though,, and if I have to replace a barrel every six month it will still be worth it. I'll just start buying douglas, and BUY my reamers ;))

FWIW,, my wifes CBS at 1K the other day with Gumby was a "7" at 3 oclock with wind at dialed to 0. Mirage was running left to right,, flag was running right to left... Looks like she has better luck with it than myself.

FatBoy...

I'm not going to input on specs for the "tactical SC piece" but.....

I do think it should reflect the general consensus that's been SC discussion over the past 5 or 6 years. Not a dream rifle with 15 barrels and a murial painted on the stock perhaps but a good solid "ROCK!" if you get my jest that average riflemen of the "Sniper Cult" can afford. Something that reflects this place and the great Smith's and other craftsmen that lurk here. 6.5X284 seems bent on inheriting the earth and I have no objection to that caliber. Too bad Remington can't maintain a quality action but that's been our staple over the years.

A few years down the road those who inherit that period can always build generation II.

HEADLINES

Saudi's say no use of their bases for U.S. against Iraq. Fine, then no protection for Saudi's if Iraq invades. of COURSE they won't because they're all brothers. Standby to retarget.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 16:01:27 (ZULU)

Natives,

Even the "Native Americans" aren't really natives! They emigrated here from Asia across the frozen Bering Straits. And how about that dead guy that the scientists dug up in the Pacific Northwest, and our fine "Native Americans" tried their best to claim so they could block further research that might prove that they weren't here first! Our scientists recently won the court case, or so I heard, so the truth might someday be revealed. This corpse is Caucasian, and predates any American Indian grave exhumation ever found!

This is not a racial thing aimed at the American Indian. I only want to make the point that wherever people claim "Native" status anywhere, it comes to light that sometime in pre-history members of their tribe invaded and took away someones land. He who is strong enough to take the territory can keep it only as long as he can hold it.

Ken H,

Were you asking about the .338-'06? It's been a legit cartridge for maybe a couple (+/-) of years now. Chambered by Weatherby in a couple of their real lightweight models and ammo called .338-'06 A-Square, available in Weatherby or A-Square brands. A hunting buddy got one just before this season, so far 1 Bull & 1 Bear! He says that it's become his favorate big game rifle, and he owns every SM there is both Remington and Winchester. Reports 1.25MOA with factory ammo and kicks like a heavily loaded .30-'06. Of course, it's been an old-time wildcat forever, and competes directly with the SM's, so guess what?

Bolt,

NIH syndrome! RemChester wants their name on it/them.

John,

I never considered dry-firing a bolt action centerfire rifle of the Mauser-pattern damaging at all. Dry-firing is great practice when the range is snowed in, or you're a fair weather paper puncher & gong ringer like me;-) Shotguns, .22RF's and some autoloaders shouldn't be dry-fired, but go for it with your bolt gun!

'lito,

You should have watched "The Bone Collector", it was on last night too.

Gang,

I agree with Mr. Gooch. Don't want no benchrest rig or race gun!

Also, like many others on the Roaster, I already own a custom built hardened .308, and have a .300WM custom Tac rifle too. I cast a vote for the 6.5-.284 because it's well on the way to becoming ligitimate (don't want no Wildcats) and yet I've been too conservative with my money to actually have one built! I take you "true believers" in this cartridge at your word, but this way if I happen to win one and don't like it I'll only be out a raffle ticket;-)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 17:04:03 (ZULU)

John (ace)...

Joe,

>"I thought all my M70s' were push feed. None of 'em have the mauser type claw extractor. Confused for sure."<

If none of them have a Mouser claw, then they are push feed, there is no third option.

>"Is the Rem. easier to work on or stronger or just plain more available?"<

None of the above... up 'til about 8 years ago, the Rem was a LOT cheaper. The military has always used the Winchester heavy target and heavy varmint (slimmer stock) rifles as sniper rifles from WW2 up through Vietnam.

Then Winchester went through the "Dark Years" (post '64 production), and Remington had just introduced their heavy varmint rifle (the HBV, now called the VS) that was half the price of the Winchester. The military started buying the Remingtons for the Vietnam conflict, and that is how the Rem got the current preference. The Win action is better, larger, doesn't have the problems of rounds sticking in the left lug grove, and a lot of other advantages.

>" 'lito, When you close the bolt does it release the trigger? "<

What do you mean? When you close the bolt, if it releases the trigger, how do you shoot it??

>" All of my older ones (pre-bolt lock) will. Hold the trigger down and close the bolt and the pin releases."<

DO you mean that the pin "slides" down (very good, and normal), or do you mean that it releases like a "snap" (Very badd, and not normal for any riffle).

FatDude...

>"... It's reported to be worse with the winchesters, as the remingtons are supposed to have a slight bit more meat around the barrel threads."<

Bad rumors, bad Juju, and badd bullshit!... the Win and Rem actions are both 1.345" +/- 0.005 at the ring. But remember this (very important!!)... the barrel screws into the ring, and it is NOT a "Cold barrel/hot ring" fit. So there are several thousandths of space between the barrel and the ring... the threads just pull the barrel back, but there is space between the tops of the threads and the rings. You wouldn't be able to screw it on if it was a compression fit.

But, also consider that the first part of the chamber is the case head and web... so that part of the case isn't going to put pressure on the barrel/ring at all... the thin part of the case is in FRONT of the reciever ring.

Also... remember that these actions have been chambered for much larger cartridges, and never had a problem. Both recievers can take pressures well in excess of 100,000 psi without grumbling... it is the case that is the weak link.

... and Winchester is spelled with a capital "W", Remington is spelled either way ;))

Bolt-ster...

Consider a few things... the 284 was orginally designed to give the power of a 7mm-06 in short action, lever and semi-auto hunting rifles. The case design was brillant, considering that the rifles were not popular and discontinued some 35-ish years ago, but the case has been in continual production for all that time, and now is made by many companies. One of the failings was that, because of the short action, the bullets needed to be seated way into the powder space.

Also... Winchester made the .264 WM in the 60's and it was a real screamer in the long 26" and longer barrels, but in the 22" barrels that were popular in those days, it was only about 100 fps faster than the favorite .270, but the .264 ate barrels for lunch.

So Winchester has had experence in these things... the current 6.5x284 is really a custom issue because it needs to be built on a long action with the bullets seated way out, to be worth the effort... anyone that is building a 6.5x284 on a short action needs to have their head examined.

Also... if a shooter has enough experence to build a 6.5x284, then they know what to expect in barrel live... but if it's an off the rack rifle, then beginners will buy it, thinking they have a "Magic stick" and when the barrels go, they will bitch about what a shitty cartridge it is.

The same thing happened to the .220 Swift, back some 40 years ago. A great cartridge in the hands of a skilled loader, but guys bought it because of the MV numbers, and said it was a dog because it ate barrels... the Swift dissapeared for about 30 years, and is now only chambered by a few limited makers, and custom builders.

The biggest disadvantage the the WSM group is that they are designed for a short action (same problem as the orginal .284)... in order to get them to play well, they need to be built on a long action.

'yote Bate...

>"Saudi's say no use of their bases for U.S. against Iraq."<

Funny how short their memories are. Just ten years ago, Saudi was Saddam's next aquistion.

I'm with you... "Fuck 'em"!!

Alan...

On the natives thing... hell, we're ALL African Americans, just go back far enough. So we are all African Americans, or we are all "What we were born as". The only hyphenated-Americans are the ones with naturalization papers, and their kids loose that lable as soon as they hit the sheets.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 18:04:23 (ZULU)

Thread on long-range.com listing 600 and 1,000 yard ranges open to the public:

http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=59&t=221&s=2921b8b23a13e2d95c4568f7fa5db15a

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 18:52:41 (ZULU)

Hey Fellers,

Another kinda' Off topic question.

Anyone here from (or go to school in) Murfreesboro TN, Laramie WY, or Warrensburg MO? I'm lookin' at applying at the schools in those cities and would like to know any poop about the schools, regions etc.

thanks guys,

Rich S.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 19:05:42 (ZULU)

I got ahold of a reamer drawing for JGS's 7WSM reamer. The headspace is pushed out a .038" over the 270 and 300WSM. Guess they didn't want any numbskulls chambering 270 into 7mm or visa versa. Click my name to see the spec sheet/drawing.

I had figured that the standard magnum actions would work, but it's so new,,, I really wasn't sure. Winchester chambers their new "classic" action rifles in the WSM. I don't know that I've seen a factory push feed chambered with any of the WSM varients.

No takers on the life of a 7mm mag yet,,, I know there some hunters out there that shoot these,, come on,,,, give it up mangs,,,, pass on the numbers.

I think if the "Project" rifle is going to represent the true spirit of SC,, the way I see it anyway, a military caliber is a must. 308 being the obvious choice. The roll stamp could be put on anything though ;))

'Lito,

You must have read it before I went back and editted. Man I love that feature...

Does Badger make mounts for the Magnums yet? Gotta do some web searchin'

FatBoy...

Chris, I figure the 7WSM is going to be very similar in barrel life to all the other magnums. I expect to get 1500-1800 out of my 7mm Rem Mag, about the same as as 300Win. You're going to see similar #'s for the 7WSM, there's just no way around it. You have to pay to play;) Besides, you have a 308, 7-08,or 260Rem rifle to practice your fundamentals with, right? Shoot the "super gun" enough to get the scope settings for the M3cam, make your self a good wind chart and conserve barrel life if you don't like blowing cash on barrels. Here in Chicago, we have this season called winter. It's a good time for hunting and getting your rifles rebarreled:-) If you can burn out a barrel in one season shooting LR matches, you obviously need to divert some of your travel budget into getting a spare rifle;) Me, I always have a spare rifle, when hunting, when shooting high power service rifle, when patrolling; it's just good sense.

The military uses rifles in 308 cause they're cheap, mentally lazy and riddled with bureaucratic inertia. And the 308 is "good enough" because everyone else(the enemy) sucks worse than we do. That and the fact that only SOCOM is doing the fighting and they still have a grasp of the important things. The regular military generally doesn't trust the troops to handle their own ammo unless they are under close supervision because those troops don't get enough training and the officers(who themselves are undertrained and not educated in the important things) are all terrified of an "incident". I spent Friday and Saturday trying to get things done with regards to training and got told that I wasn't planning far enough ahead, which is true because I'm swamped with 47-thousand other piddling shit things like sensitivity training and endless mobilization paper shuffling. How many fucking times do I have to review my SGLI and RED? Why waste my time cause the pogues don't bother changing it anyways? Getting back to planning ahead, one group of fools told me 90 days, a different group told me 120 days, either way my troops get fucked because some other asshole allocated ammo without any input from the guys using it, us. It didn't really matter because about the time I was able to get all the paperwork in order to get things done, everything was coming to a halt because the unit went to the USMC Birthday ball, which we held a week early in order to accomodate some retirements.

So I went and drowned my sorrows at the open bar. Then my Distinguished badge bit me in the ass and I found myself in a 20 minute conversation with a 3 star general. I narrowly escaped with my life, and hopefully I brought up some things that will help the Corps and the nation. My boss, a CWO-5, retired last night along with the Rgt Sgt Maj and they will be missed. And now I'm doing laundry, lifting weights and recovering from last night, which is why this post displays such a high level of residual anger. On the positive side, I got a LCol to give me carte blanche on running the Bn rifle and pistol team, so maybe I can do some good for the unit before we go play in the sand again. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

:edited for clarity 021103 1535 LT

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 20:08:51 (ZULU)

Greetings from Woodenshoe country!

Just wanted to let you Rosterfarians know that this little Cloggie cop won the first Dutch Sniper competition!!

I used 185 grain Lapua scenars, with 43 grain of N150, and they performed ok.

There was a observation part and a shooting part, containing a coldbore shot, a 5-shot grouping, targets mixed with no-shoots, a shot on call, all from different positions, like sitting, prone, kneeling and even standing.

There was one guy with a TBA rifle from Mike CH., and a lotta Steyer SSG's, and some Remmie's, but my own Sako TRG22 outshot them all with 370 out of a possible 400 points. Number 2 had 340 points.

Pablito, Jim Mitchel, Rob01 and Team Mussack better watch out next year, cause i am thinking of taking this monster to next years New Jearsey's snipercompetition!

I am one very happy Windmill sako shooting dude!

May your bullits fly towards where you aim,

Marco.

Ps; Pete, got your message, coming saturday after the gun Show with Val, Sander and my lady in blue!

Marco <fwebel@wanadoo.nl>
NL - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 21:25:32 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

Looking for an M40-A3 USMC tech manual as well as Usmc data book and log. Just picked up one built by george trying to keep it as close to one built in quantico as possible. Does anyone know where one can be purchased.

thanks,

greeceman

Jim <Greeceman8@cs.com>
memphis, tn, usa - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 21:27:17 (ZULU)

Chris - Lito is right, the guy with the Winchester action story is very full of it. I have been playing with the .270 WSM for most of the summer now in the Coyote format, infact 900 rounds and the barrel is ready for replacement. As soon as I get replacement barrels from Mike Rock I am going to build the action up. Out of the box with only my home grown pillar bedding job the Coyote shot factory at 1MOa and hand loads to just above .6 MOA. Using the 150 grain Nosler balistic tips, Win cases, Fed 215M, and 65 grains of 4064 I am getting 3300 fps three feet from the muzzle and MOA accuracy out to 1000 yards. Real world data in 60 rounds at 1000yds in 90 degree Michgan humidity is 25MOA. I want to play with the powders once I get it built because 3400 might be possible with a slower powder. Suggestions welcome as to powders???? One advantage the Winchester short action has over the remington is that it is longer, especially if you set the mag well back and shorten the bolt stop. I figure I can load out to 2.95".

John - the Coyote's are the only pushfeed WSM actions Winchester is producing. All the others are the Claw extractor/ Mauser style.

Brian - ever make any headway with your contact at Remington???? I had a local trooper and gun club member call me the other night with a year old PSS that had been sent back to remington twice for a bad barrel ( chipped rifling) and not fixed either time. He is still using his old PSS for duty but with 7000 round through it it needs work. These new ones I see really suck the big one, as the stock is crooked as well. Look like they are buying seconds from HS or something. Lent him my FN SPR from the original release. He has shot it before so i might not get it back any time soon. It's gone to a good cause. IF you can email me the contacts info I would appreciate it.

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 21:29:26 (ZULU)

FN SPR (old style)

Anyone know who made the stock? HS, McMillian? Guy at work is bringing one in tomorrow in .308 for me to look at. Less than 100 rounds down the tube. I've given up the quest for a Stealth. May work up a trade. Just curious.

Thanks,

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 21:46:50 (ZULU)

Titan,

Winchester makes the Stealth to,, also a pushfed action. Just because you can't ever find them on the rack and almost no one can get one without an 8 month wait doesn't mean they don't make them no more ;)))

Same as all the other mags huh,,, sheeeeeeiiiit.. That takes some of the wind from my sails. I was getting the 142SMK to 1K with 24 moa this summer. Since then, I've had to push the bullet out .030 and didn't change the load. With the weather change and the chase I was at 27MOA last weekend. It was about 62 degrees,, 20% humidity, down from my 95 degree zero.

KenM,

I shoot almost every weekend. Most is XTC stuff, but I shoot two 1K matches a month in the summer, and with Oak Ridge close to me and the HardRock matches in Alabama,, I'll likely shoot a 1K three of every four weekends. I don't travel much,, I just have a lot going on within 250 miles of the front door. I'm gonna try and make a Butner next season too. There's too many Hawgs that shoot there for me to miss it. Perry I WILL be making this season. Shooting the leg, the pres100 and I'm driving back up for Wimbledon.

Ohh, and your posts don't sound angry to me,,, they sound like a guy who know WTF he's talkin about and wants it changed. It's a breath of fresh air in the teddy bear, new MRE military. Keep it up,, it may save some kids ass one of these days(if it already hasn't), and you too seem to shoot more than the average....

900 rounds huh,, that's about right for an overbore. (or is it underbore??) MAN,, I can't cheat with this barrel life thing.... sumbeach... I'll rebarrel 5 match rifles for every one of the 6BR I'm building for the Mrs.

Douglas,,,,, here I come...

Don,

HS makes the stocks,, and the ones I've seen have shot OUTSTANDING.

FatBoy...

Titan, 4064 seems WAY too fast a powder for the 270WSM, especially with 150's. The 270Win needs at least 4350 and 4831 is more better still. The 270WSM ought to use 4831 on the fast side and I'd give real strong thought to H4831SC as the main powder for that cartridge. Seyfried was talking good things about RL22 and I'd give that some thought too. It's still a magnum, even if it is a little shorter.

Chris, shooting out a barrel a season is OK, it's having it go Tango Uniform before the season is over that's the problem. That's what I meant, although that wasn't what I wrote:) It must be nice having LR ranges nearby, all I have is Lodi and that's 3hrs. Atterbury is 4.5hrs and Perry is 6. I have to move elsewhere. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 22:00:12 (ZULU)

KenM,

Well,, the barrel held on long enough for me to take the top spot in my class at the regional last month,,, Guess I can't complain. I'd be happier if I had been shooting it longer than 5 months. My first match with this stick was June.

Move down here.. We could use more citizens with brains enough to form a correct sentence. (unlike my transplanted arse). Lots of shooting and world class shooters, easy CCW permits, no state taxes. Oh,, and year round shooting,, if ya don't mind shooting in the cold.

You'll never convince Titan to not use 4064 ,,, You should see how much he jackhammers into a 308 case!! If it shakes around in the box on the way to the range the bullet will pop back out, as it's under serious pressure before he touches them off.

I use H4831SC in the 6.5x284 and 50.5gr was getting me 2980fps in the 26" tube. That was before the throat started going,,, but it's like 4 gr less than the average in this cal with a Hart. A good friend uses 4350 in his Obermeyer tube, 29" with moly'd 142's. He gets 2950 with 49gr. John Hoover with Accuracy one uses the same load in 30" kriegers for 3100fps.

All I need is a load that'll get me 2900 to 2950, that will be 1/4 MOA and give me 3000 rounds from a tube.... yes,, that's what I need.

Chris...

Chris - I like the Stealths, Got two as a matter of fact. I have one in a A4 stock that is my favorite. These are soo good that I hate to tear one up just for the action. The Coyotes are already set for the WSM case so you save some money in machine work by not having to open the bolt face up. I have not seen a WSM Stealth yet and don't know if Winchester makes one. Forget the douglas barrels, just order from Rock by the 1/2 dozen every couple of years and have George set them all up at once. Then you can unscrew them and replace as needed. LOL

Don - The original FN SPR stocks are HS stocks identical to what is on the Stealth, with the exception of the DM. I took mine and put it in a Stealth HS stock, changed the action screws and use Williams bottom metal with a little Steelbed for good measure. Works great. It's the new intermediate length actions that use the McMillian stocks. I have not seen one in the flesh yet.

Ken - thanks, I have a lot of the 4064 on hand so i tried it. I believe thats why the barrel shot out so soon. Keep up the good work you are doing.

RAFFLE!!!!!!!!!RAFFLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!RAFFLE!!!!!!!!!!!!RAFFLE!!!!!!!!!!!

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 22:37:44 (ZULU)

Titan, I'll trade you an 8lb can of N160 for an 8lb can of IMR4064, if you want. I don't have any loads for the WSM's with it, but it's similar to 4350. I have a couple kegs on hand. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 22:52:47 (ZULU)

Class Project, Kent says keep it affordable. Two options I have in mind. The second I like best. 1st. A Savage short action in 308, with a premium tube, sharpshooter trigger, and a McMillan Stock (A3). 2nd Idea, Winchester Coyotye Action 300WSM, HS Precission Stock. Badger rings and mounts on both of them. And The M3 LR Loopie as the Officail scope to be purchased seprately. Affordable and simple.

Marco, Good shooting Tex, er uh, Good shoooting clogger. I shot a TRG22 recently. Dang nice sticks. Trigger would take me some time to get used to...

Lito, I think the Saudis are just putting up a front for the Arab world. I think when it comes down to the nut cuttin they will be on board.

Elections coming up Tuesday, get your asses out there and vote...

Oh, anyone looking for a good 40 S&W load for 155gr Cast bullets, try 4.5-5.0grs of 231.. My 5gr load printed a 1 1/2" 5 shot group at 20yds. Gunna try backing the powder off to closer to 4.5 and see if it tightens up any more.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 22:56:44 (ZULU)

Hey Marco!!! Good for you, now get your trigger finger back in that dike. Or is that dyke? Whatever....

I finally got around to putting a proper paint job on my M40A1 clone. She sure looks nice. Now I've got to get her out there and scratch her all up with some field work.

As far as sniper caliber goes, if not .308 then what?

This afternoon has been a bit of a drag Andy is off with Miss Brittany, my daughter Rachel just left to return to college and I'm feeling a little under the weather.

Maybe it's time for bed.

Good night guys.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 23:24:39 (ZULU)

The case for .308 might be that it is in fact a Nato caliber? Also interchangable with the M1a or M-14? Popular with Spotters? And you can grab a belt of M-60 ammo if you run out? It will shoot 4000 rounds with a barrel easy?And lots of rounds without burning the barrel down in a hot situation? Is this rifle a universal Sniper rifle that might go on assignment for months or even years as a Military rifle/LE rifle? I'm just askin here?

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 00:22:19 (ZULU)

To keep it simple with the group rifle, Why don't we just make a group purchase from FN. Get the model with the A3 stock and no DM. It would give the choice of .308 or .300 WSM and maybe they could serialize them, and do camo stocks instead of black for us. Seems like some one here has a contact their but I cannot remember who?? Chrome lined barrells would last a long time, and if they shoot like the originals then the stick would not be the week link. Just a though and way cheaper than a true custom stick.

Ken M - let me see how much I have left. If I have two unopened ones I will trade one. I will check when I get home mid week.

Chris - You make having to use the case tumber to shake down 45 grains of pure magic into a .308 case sound like an accident waiting to happen. Thats why I glue in all the matchkings with super glue...........Just kidding.

Got to staff the range today for all of the deer hunter getting the stick out and sighted in. A few needed some help but in all a good bunch of people showed up, and alot had their kids and grand kids with them. Hope they all do the right thing on tuesday and in the woods.

Good night all!

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 00:58:32 (ZULU)

Barrels;

I'm looking at buying a barrel for my upcoming project. What are the pro's and con's of stainless steel and chrome-moly steel barrels?

I'll be using .308WIN or maybe 6.5-284 and mostly 500 yards and under. Barrel will be 20-22 inches long.

Pulp Fiction;

'lito, it's not that you're getting old. Pulp Fiction just flat out sucked.

New rifles;

I have noticed that the "common" rifles being made now days are not made with much craftsmanship. The fit and finish are not important anymore.

I believe that the companies like Remington, Winchester, Savage, Ruger,etc. figure that it can be over looked on most guns. I think this is their logic: Most guns are made for hunters. Most hunters are not shooters. They shoot their guns a little before season to see if they can hit a target about as big as a dinner plate. If three out of five shots hit, good enough. After season, it goes back into storage.

These people don't care if the gun is comfortable, looks nice, etc. Doesn't even have to accurate. They don't know the better principles of marksmanship and don't care. If they had a fine rifle they wouldn't know it.

Unfortunately, the gun companies know that some people who want a proper gun will pay the extra cash for them.

I'm an avid hunter. I'm also an avid shooter and shoot all the guns I own for pleasure, not just for hunting.

I'm not saying that all hunter's are like those I mentioned. But, I'm sure we've all seen them.

Alabama hunting;

I agree that there isn't enough does taken during season. I say "You can't eat horns." I'll have to take up the other fellas slack. If they won't shoot them, I'll do it. Two words: freezer meat.

Pete, in my part of Alabama, we have 70(seventy)days of deer season and you are allowed two per day(only one can be a buck). Alabama doesn't have doe tags. Just buy a hunting license, $16 for resident- $150 for nonresident, and go hunting. We don't have deer harvest tags, either.

Don, where do you hunt? I mostly hunt Choctaw County.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 01:16:16 (ZULU)

Jody,

Don't waste your time with a 6.5x284 and a barrel under 26". Pat has had great luck with the 260rem in a shorter barrel. Not short enough for 'yote baits liking... but much handier than the 26" ers most of us use.

Mr. Bullet,,,

where you been anyway?? Think you can stay away from the DR,,, HA!! don't think so mang...

When I look at a rifle now,, I don't really pay a lot of attension as to how well it looks or to the craftsmanship unless I plan on using it as is. My thoughts are always,, "what is this gonna be in 6 months and how much work is it gonna take to get it there". Looking for the jewel in the rough if you will.

FatBoy...

Ah yes, this rifle... a labor of love. Carry on it's a lovely thing to behold. Where can I see this FN? zznNEVER MIND i FOUND IT!

That $9000 dollar FA5 looks about like my Coyote rifle only about $8000 dollars higher. Maybe we can get Remington to Camo finish a stainless .308 VSS. The quality of the stainless rifles is about 3 timies that of the PSS. DREAM DREAM DREAM.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 02:03:59 (ZULU)

Ken M.

I'm 30 minutes from Atterbury, holler at me on your next trip thru and we'll se if the Col. will let us play with the Barrett at 1000. HAHA!!

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 02:58:08 (ZULU)

Jody, "I am an avid hunter." I have been hunting for about 25 yrs. I haven't shot an avid yet but I keep trying..

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 03:01:47 (ZULU)

>>>Ah yes, this rifle... a labor of love. Carry on it's a lovely thing to behold. Where can I see this....<<<

Here it is. After much forethought and meditation and considering all that has been requested.... this is the prototype.

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-rooney2.html

Now tell me really...have all the bases been covered here...or what? ;))

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 03:06:21 (ZULU)

Ken M,

>>The regular military generally doesn't trust the troops to handle their own ammo unless they are under close supervision because those troops don't get enough training and the officers(who themselves are undertrained and not educated in the important things) are all terrified of an "incident". <<

If I didn't agree 100%, I might have felt insulted...:))

Hawgs,

If you guys actually pull off gettin this class project goin' then I am gonna buy one. I'm such a sucker for gimmicks...and the 6.5 will wait some more.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 05:03:16 (ZULU)

Brian,

As always a quality post! Leo sounds like a fine guy. If Eric says he is ok, then he is OK! George introduced me to Eric as "the only other guy that I have ever met that is as uptight and anal about rifle building as I am." Eric, George, and Marty do "not suffer fools" easily, so if you make it in their book and are not a "gomer" or a "moon," then you have an probably have a chance in this tough world.

I woke up at 3:30am, this morning and then drove and picked up Undude and we headed up to the long range match in Sacto.

There is nothing like shooting at 900-1000 yards with a good breeze to humble your shooting confidence!

Undude shot some smoking groups with the pipsqueek .338 Lapua, but unfortunately was trying out a new rifle, scope, and custom BDC that was a little off, so high scores eluded him... (He still kicked my ass though!)

Grasshopper (Eric) was the day's winner and took home the big cash prize!

Overall, it was a great time at a match that was well run with some really nice (and patient) guys.

What a great Sunday! While I was out shooting I missed out on laundry, lawn mowing.....

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 05:53:03 (ZULU)

Gents,

With all the posts about calibers, etc., I feel I must throw in my .02 worth.

First, I would strongly advocate the 6.5 X .284 as a replacement for the .308 AND 300 Win Magnum. In an anti-personnel role ONLY. It has the flat trajectory of the big magnum and the recoil level of the .308. The only draw back is barrel life. Not a big deal to us, but to the services and those that shoot large quantities of ammo is a concern. As is returning the rifles for the proper echelon of maintenance. For that reason and ammo commonality issues the .308 will continue to be the round of choice.

As those have noted a long action is best with the 6.5 X .284. I disagree. The perfect action length is a medium such as the Mexican Mauser that was build around the 7 X 57 cartridge. I have an action and it will be a 6.5 X .284 sporter in the future. Wonderful for plains game, etc. Other than that stick with an '06 action length.

That having been said, I am also a proponet of the .308 in a BIG way. Since it's not likely to be replaced soon let's look at it's strong points. Common caliber...found everywhere. Every conceivable type of round made for it. Not so the 6.5...

The .308 has benefited from 50 years of use and development. Additionally, it performs well out of short barrels. Something the smaller calibers do not always accomplish. The larger bore diameter and expansion ratio really go to work in the 20" barrel and just get better in 24-26" tubes. I don't advocate longer than 26" on a working rifle. Just my preference.

We can look at the new Remington "shorties" and the WSM cartridges, but in analysis they do nothing better than the current cartridges and manage to give up magazine capacity. Also, the full size cartridges perform with the heavy weights. The short mags will not.

In short, the new wave of shorter fatter cartridges really gains us nothing, but a new generation of short actioned cartridges, new rifles, and increased sales for the manufacturers. Let's face it, gents, if shorter and fatter did it I'd be on the cover of GQ magazine...

Platforms for rifles...LOT'S of good ones. If you can afford it go with a custom platform. Jerry Rice, George Gardner, and the Chandlers all come highly recommended by the readers/writers on this page.

Stan and I can vouch for Geff Corn, as well. His gas guns are absolute works of art.

Looks like I'm blathering on so will end the tirade. My best to all and GOOD SHOOTING!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 06:10:32 (ZULU)

Guys been hard at it for a couple of weeks and have not had the chance to read here for awhile.

First of all, everyone hear should take a short moment to remenber Mike Barber. For those of you who did not know him, take it from me that he was nothing short of a great guy. A former Army Sniper and dedicated to our interests. He will be missed.

Things are 100% at the New shop and production is back where I want it to be. T.O. times are back down. Eric, Marty and myself are really proud of the new place. and Chris is ready to get started the first of the year. Will be taking some pics this week to put on the website.

The Latest Raffle Rifle is sitting in my vault looking pretty damn fine. One of the best shooting rifles Ive built to date. The winner is sure to enjoy.

On the Subject of a "Sniper Country Propriatary Rifle" Good Idea. Somone should take a poll of what it should consist of and let me know. If all componets were purchased in a quanity of 10-15 (if there is that kind of interest) the price could be kept down. The method of marking I use would enable us to create custom artwork to be dispalyed on the barrel or reciever. Marius/Scott would need to aprove/release the use of S.C. Name if that is what the markings would consist of. Ill help with this if this Idea pans out. Mike Rock and Marty from Badger would also get behind it.

Ref: Leo Conring. Ditto what Brian said. Eric says he is a good Smith so I believe he is. I told him a year ago he could come join the G.A. Team but aparently he is going to fly Solo.

Will be out in North Carolina with Sinister over the comming weekend should be a hoot jumping with all my buddies there.

Ill keep a close eye here for the next few days and try to jump in if I can help with ideas.

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
N. Kansas City , MO , USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 08:27:32 (ZULU)

MK4: What? No satellite dish?

Wuzzagrunt <t1_of_2@hotmail.com>
New York, NY, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 11:05:44 (ZULU)

>>>>What? No satellite dish?<<<<<<

Nooop. Couldn't get a good signal on my Dick Tracy watch ;)) Sorry.

I agree with Wes in regards to the 308 as remaining the standard. Long barrel life, common caliber and ammo that can be scrounged in desparate situations as Bill pointed out and compatible with M1A/M14s too. Another major + is the fact that you can still get a 1K rounds of surplus berdan primed FN brass from Wideners for $69/1000 (that's cheap my friends). As Sierra Echo pointed out a while back, we can play with the others, but remember always to dance with the one that brung you. Just my .02 worth.

As far as the 6.5 X .284, I hope to own a George Gardner stick in that caliber...but only after I find me another 308 in a Winnie Stealth (anybody got a fix on a new one?). And then maybe a 300WM, then maybe a AR30 in 338 Lapua (maybe not in that order). Is there an end to all of this? Don't answer ;))....and Lito finds a stick that he can't recall buying, shooting...or where it came from. Dementia or accounting problems... or ...his sticks reproducing? ;)))))

NEWS FLASH: For you Maryland voters you might check this out...

http://www.kennedyandguns.com/index.phtml

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 14:14:37 (ZULU)

Chris,

Believe it or not I am still alive and kicking!! I have been tied up in court all week so I just have time to scan the DR and since I was not an profiler I stayed out of the sniper talk.

However since were back on guns and stuff I always have two cents to throw in(HA).

I found your dream caliber and it meets your specs to a "T"!! My son is going to have one built. He shoots hipower and I have been researching for a couple of months to come up with something to meet his needs.

We kicked around alot of different rounds and setteled on the 6-250. This thing really is a shooter!! You use a 1-8 twist and go with the 105 MKs and you can shoot them from 2700 to 3000fps. Most of the guys shoot them at around 2850 and are getting 4000rds out of them. They have very mild recoil and and are deadly accurate!! Plus they are easy to make, just run a 6mm expander into a 22-250 case and you have a case ready to load.

The accuracy at 100yds has been in the .1s and .2s for load testing and Varget seems to be the popular powder. There are seveal other powders that shoot really well in it too. Kindof like a 6.5x284 shoots most powders well. It has a BC of .520 and at 2850 would be flatter than the 260s and just off the 6.5x284s for performance run the numbers in your program and get back to me.

The 22-250 case seems to be ideal for this bullet as far as everything goes. I haven't had much chance to talk with anyone using it to 1000yds yet but I know their using it. I see no reason why it would not make a nice F Class round for you.

Ken M,

The 280AI is a very nice and very accurate round. I have a smith who does a lot of long range shooting and that was his favorite round until the 6-250 came along. He still thinks its a great round and esp likes it for hunting. I have always stayed away from the improved cases because of the amount of time required to fire form the cases. When I was competing I liked to have at least 500 good cases.

7MM/WSM or 270WSM,6.5....

Not a good idea for a competition or sniper rifle, to hard on barrels. By the time you get a load worked up your barrel is gone. If a 300WM is hard on barrels think about nearly the same amount of powder coming out of a much smaller hole.

Someone mentioned practice with your 308 and then just shoot the "Big One" once in awhile. It doesn't work!! I tried shooting two or three different calibers and lost my edge with them all. When I shot just the 308 or the 260 I was much more consistant than when I was shooting the 308 & 260 or the 260 and the 6.5x284. The thing that kills you is your wind calls.

When using the 260 I got really good calling my wind and when I went to the 6.5x284 I seemed to loose some of it.(Might have been age too) I was not as consistant on my wind calls when switching back and forth between the two calibers. I would either over compensate or under compensate for it with both calibers.

SC custom rifle...

That should cause some real fur balls!! Knowing that were all not toooo.. opinionated!!(HA)

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 14:14:45 (ZULU)

Ok, My final thought on the class project. A Winnie Stealth, 308, trued action, a little trigger work, and a Mike Rock barrel, Badger rings/mount.. This would be simple and practical. Most guys here love thier Winnies anyway why not use it as a platform? Guys with Stealths could ship them to George to put on the tubes and do the other work. The barrel and action could then be refinnished in a olive drabe, brown or black epoxy finnish. I just wish my rifle buying wasn't going to be put on hold for several months. But I maybe in the market when things get going on the project.

More natsy weather here today. Gunna see how many bullets I can cast today. Guess it will be about 4K. Cool weather is casting weather.

Going to the shed.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 14:53:19 (ZULU)

Fatboy:

"...and the HardRock matches in Alabama."

Inquiring minds (well Tommy Hobbs & I)want to know, where & when. Got a contact?

Thanks,

Don

BTW, thanks for those who replied re the FN SPR stock question. Trying to work out a trade now for my M1A loaded. The SPR has a Springfield Gen III 6-20x50 w/7.62 reticle mounted on Loopy 2 pc. bases w/QR rings. If the SPR outshoots my 700 PSS, I'll swap the M3 LR onto the SPR.

Anyone know if I'll need a tapered base with the Springfield scope to make 1K?

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 15:09:12 (ZULU)

KenH. Hey man. Hang in there. Focus on the mission and let the peckerheads do thier job making your job harder. Just another USMC tradition I reckon.

Caliber for a SC gun. I like all of the high speed calibers but honestly a .308 does it all. Ammo availability is better with .308. If I were going to need a case of ammo in a lurch and I went down to the local police distributor it would take a while to get 6.5 where they will have at least a couple of cases of .308.

Out here.

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
Click on my name to visit the leader in tactical marksmanship training - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 15:22:50 (ZULU)

Guys talked with John Sr. of US Optics this week end for few hours. He is very interested in making scopes that you want at a price that is competitive. He is now offering a 1.8-10x44 with Ergo for 1695.00 and a 3.2-17x44 for 1895.00. Those prices are between Leupold MK4 and SxB P11's in retail price.

He has established a goal of zero returns and no complaints. He has had no complaints or returns in many months. He will continue to strive to make the scopes perfect in everyway. He will continue to make the scopes you ask for and custom scopes you want. What more can ask for.

I will continue to do the product testing and see what can be broken. The scope Mike S. mentioned was one they sent for me to help develop a better extreme range sniper system. It was perfect except for the BDC info engraved in the knob which was my guesss to begin with. I obtained the needed data that will make it perfect by the time it hits production. This scope has extended eye relief and is perfect for 338Lapua and 50BMG weapon systems.

Things are looking up.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 15:31:51 (ZULU)

SC project rifle? Great idea. Agreement on what it should be? LMFAO. Wake me up when you decide on what action to use. My choice would be the pushfeed Winchester LA in 7.62x63, heavy contour cut rifled barrel from the state of Wisconsin (Krieger, Obermeyer, Rock), McMillan A-5 stock (in development by Kelly as we speak), Williams Firearm Co. bottom metal, Badger base and rings, Leupold 3.5-10LR M3 with Premier's Gen 2 reticle.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 16:45:12 (ZULU)

Ok ? for you guys,

Hopefully sometime this week i will be purchasing a LTR in 308. Since I will be loosing a little velocity with the shorter barrel will a scope with BDC track properly using factory ammo? Which scope(s) would be recommended. It will mostly be used for hunting and target shooting out to 500 yards.

Thanks in advance.

Ty Warren <ty36608@aol.com>
Mobile, AL, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 17:23:31 (ZULU)

Hello All,

First time poster here...I just got my notification that I'm now registered (at least I just read that notification).

I've been lurking here for about a month. I got p***ed off at the

Forum that is my mainstay for Highpower, because of a policy that

now prohibits political commentary (too "sensitive" to offending the

anti's).

I ain't a youngster -age 63 - but my passion is High Power LR. Have

shot one match @ 600 yds., and one practice at the same distance.

So I'm kinda like a "Make-a-Wish" guy for seniors. Still, I love the

sport, and have done fairly well, considering. I have done a good bit of practice at 200 yards on reduced targets, and can usually count

on 198's - 200's at that range. Rifle is a Savage Model 10 FLP (lefty), in .308. Got a Sharp Shooter trigger and a Sharp Shooter

stock, plus a Harris bipod and a Weaver KT15 scope. Naturally, I have to shoot F-Class. But I managed a 589-25X in a 60 shot match recently

with this rig, and felt pretty good about it. Not bad for a senior with bad eyes at 600. Sunday I fell apart...finished the entire 2-day with 1150-37X.

I load my own, and use IMI Match brass, and Lapua brass. Bullets are

Sierra 175MKs over 43.0 gr of N540, touched off with CCI BR2 primers.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but it's my first, and I just wanted to kinda get established on the Forum. There's more, but I'll hold off for now.

P.S. How do I type messages without all the spaces and gaps?

Fred Robbins <robbins_15032@msn.com>
Middleburg, FL, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 17:52:06 (ZULU)

Ty,

Don't sweat the fact that your bullets won't track your BDC exactly. I have three guns with M3 scopes on them with various barrel lengths. I don't worry about it. Work up a load that is accurate in your LTR that gives you good velocity. I think most people here would agree with me that the MOST important thing is to keep data on your gun. You might find that your loads track BDC well out to 300-400yds, but they might be off 1MOA in elevation beyond that. Keep the data handy for that load, and you'll always know what your MOA adjustment needs to be for the range you are shooting. Of course your weather, altitude, etc. will always have to be noted as well. Don't get too caught up on the BDC tool. I'm bias toward the M3 system because I like the quick adjustment.

Ducking for cover and a possible swat from Lito.

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMo, MO, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 17:54:34 (ZULU)

On the rifle project, my .02 worth is lets stay with the Remington action and .308 Winchester. You can buy .308 Winchester ammo in places that never heard of the 6.5-284.

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 18:04:46 (ZULU)

Watch me get my ass in a bind here. The spirit of the rifle project as I interpreted Gooch, was a rifle to reflect the spirit of Sniper Country from inception to date. Not neccessarily to create a dream gun or race piece for the next Century. Anyway that's what struck me as the appeal for such a project. Not a historical piece perhaps but at least a reflection on the site and those who've lurked here.

There have been many good Smith's cross here and I'll not name them for they all deserve credit for their work. But.... George Gardiner who I've never met personally and have no real ties with by the way...has never built me a rifle (darn my fault though). George has ALWAYS delivered ontime and been here with us, lurking and reading us and offering advise. It seems to me that he deserves the honor of building it for us. This is no way a reflection on anyone else or their work and you all know who you are but I'm afraid I'd forget someone if I tried to make a list. I have always put my own stuff together or shot factory so I'm not qualified to judge products and I've never shot a modern Sniper competetion so I'm not prejudiced by that. It just seems that George would be offered this dubious perhaps honor. I also offer you the rifle as suggested by the Boltster. The reason I say this, is.. this is one of the true students of this site. What he suggested is what he has learned and I'd bet that 90% of what he knows came from here. Those are his learned conclusions. At least it provides a good starting point.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 18:12:37 (ZULU)

Ref: USO Pricing

Mike wrote, "He is now offering a 1.8-10x44 with Ergo for 1695.00"

Yikes!!!!! I could have two M3LRs w/GenII reticles for that money.

That's what the doctor calls "competitive"?

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 18:19:08 (ZULU)

Fred,

Welcome to the DR. As one old guy to another, I still can't figure out the posting and spacing accurately and I've been here about four years;-)

Ty,

YMMV but, for your M3 LR scope, the factory .308 elevation dial will track the 175gr SMK bullet @2685fps MV correctly in METERS!

Use the .30-'06 dial to track the above load in YARDS!

It would be wise of you to invest in a chronograph and build your loads to this standard. I get 2685 out of a 26" bbl w/44gr Varget and it is not a hot load. See what 46gr will do out of your 20"er. I'll bet some of the short barrel guys can give you some load advice! Ain't that right, 'yote bait?

Just remember that these tracking figures must still be tested for real-world accuracy by you with your rifle. Small corrections are easily made.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 18:41:00 (ZULU)

Ref: Tracking the dial

.30-06 dial/175SMK/2685 fps/26" barrel/44.2 grains Varget

This combination is on the numbers out to 500 yards then the dial no longer fits. No big deal I just use the yardage marks as references and leave off a minute or two as required. Besides the dial can only fit one very specific set of circumstances anyway. My bet is you'd be really close even at 2,600 fps out to the 500 yard mark. I'd have to run the numbers to be sure. Don't sweat the small stuff. Get the M3LR with GenII reticle and be happy.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 18:54:17 (ZULU)

Hi everyone,

been lurking awhile - now I've registered. As this is my first post, I would have liked to have contributed a pearl of wisdom. But my minds just gone blank. GULP!

SteveA

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Banned-it Country, England, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 19:16:57 (ZULU)

Kevin, by competitive i think he is after the same market as SxB and Nightforce not the LR M3 guys. The SxB actually retails for more than that USO.

On the SC rifle. It needs to be something simple. cost effective and works.

Reminton 700 SA in 308 Win

McMillan HTG/M40A1 stock

Mike Rock bbl no flutes to keep the price down.

William or Badger steel floor plate Lets see who can give us a great price.

Badger Base and rings

Get who ever you gusy pick to make it but George Gardner or Jerry Rice have been very good to guys on this site.

I saw save money by havineg it in two forms.

One) a simple kit we bed and paint all metal work

Two) a complete rifle already built

Undude

Mike MIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 19:25:11 (ZULU)

Bisley Tiger...

Good handle. Welcome to the Newbie fold, as you and I both debuted here today. I could have kept my mouth shut, but I'm here in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave...so I put my 2 pence in.

There seems to be a number of UK folks that are not complacent with the gun-bans...yet there seem to be, also, some who are not affected by that. Can you enlighten us here?

Fred Robbins <robbins_15032@msn.com>
Middleburg, FL, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 19:36:42 (ZULU)

Fred,

to answer your questions:

the shooting organisations in the UK are VERY fragmented. There are people who think "the latest ban will not affect me, so I wont oppose it".

Our NRA is staffed mainly by gin-soaked chinless wonders, the 'old school tie' brigade.

They seem to be only concerned with Target Rifle/Match Rifle/Palma. And everything else can be left to rot!

They played a MAJOR part in getting self-loading rifles banned by stating "we can see no reason for a civilian to posess such a weapon". Needless to say all NRA events are 'single shot, rifle 2+10 to count.

Hey Fred, you seem to have brought out the doorkicker in me!

As for the name Bisley Tiger - It come from 'With British snipers to the Reich'. Its an expression for someone who has not been there and done that - they have read about it instead (but that doesn't stop them from commenting!). As all my knowledge comes from the target ranges, I thought it quite apt.

Bisley Tiger <steven@allery.demon.co.uk>
Banned-it Country, England, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:09:10 (ZULU)

Tomorrow is Bonfire Night, they tell me,

My 2p on this rifle is that it should reflect the folk we respectfully tip our hats to, our men in ghillies, even blonde ghillies Mike.. Tune it up, but keep it simple, rugged, and ugly eh!! No self respectin' Super Bad Sammy wants any part of a purty stick, that's for them prima donna paper punchin prissies, ha!!

Caliber selection on this stick, ha.. I'd hate to see that poll..

Remember, Remember, the 5th of November, eh..(that's for Pete and Jon)

go vote tomorrow too eh..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:19:39 (ZULU)

Rifle Raffle...........maybe we do the raffle and let the winner call the caliber this time???????????????

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:23:54 (ZULU)

Undude;

Sounds like "The Rock" without the flutes to me.

Ref how to post without the double spaces: Don't add extra returns between paragraphs, etc. while composing your missive. i.e., don't double space.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:27:51 (ZULU)

Brogers and Mike Miller,

On the Sniper Country rifle. Well said…….I second the motion.

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:34:02 (ZULU)

dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:40:37 (ZULU)

A big "MOST AFFIRMED" to what the Undude Slingmeister (I have 3) said per the rifle.

Mike,

Sorry I missed you yesterday. Kate's in hospital again. (6 X this year!)

You guys take care o' your wee ones...

Spud

dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:44:40 (ZULU)

MIke MIller' I intended to ask you off line if Jerry's Muzzle device goes on threaded? I thought if the threads were there that would be nice option or inclusion. I better shut up. But I think .308 and Remington is a soul piece. Badger Rings, and a Harris with Mcmillian stock. Undude sling and how Sniper Country can you get.

Fred, sounds like you've found a home. I get a little politically incorrect (no small stretch) and offend someone now, Ive scared some of the "sensitive job boys" into not talking with me at all on here but they still put up with me for some reason... I guess it's cause I say it and they don't have too.... but they don't call this SNIPER COUNTRY for nothing. You can be picked off anytime.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:47:44 (ZULU)

Damn!

sorry about the double...

I meant SLINGS, not rifles. (sigh)

Spud

dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 20:48:49 (ZULU)

Hydration Systems

I purchased the Camelbak "Woodland" model and tested it over the weekend. I'm satisfied with it. It has the gray 70oz. bladder. It comes in the Realtree or Mossy Oak break-up patterns. The camouflage has a felt-like texture and is quiet, but the material underneath is waterproof. The webbing is all black so I plan to camo paint it along with bottom of the pack, which is black.

The cargo area is about 7" x 7" x 14" and I had more than enough room for the day's gear. I it was cold and I had ice in the bite valve but it melts by holding the valve in the fist for about a minute. I think I'll look into getting the insulation kit for the tube and valve.

It's narrow enough that I can sling the rifle on my shoulder with no trouble. With the waist strap and the sternum strap it doesn't slide or move around on my back. I spent around $70 for it. I'm happy with mine and the camo is quieter than the military cordura camo.

They make a larger "Trophy" model with the gray 100oz. bladder and more cargo space. It is built better and runs about $85.

Old Ironsights <scsmith@micron.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 21:08:07 (ZULU)

Pat,

That 6-250 sounds like a cross between a 6mm international and a 243win. The only real difference I could see between the case on the 6mm international and the 22-250 was the shoulder angle on the 250 case is 2 degrees steeper and the neck would be slightly shorter. The 6-250 to the 243win, would have a shoulders pushed back slightly but 8 degrees steep on the 250 shoulder. I wonder how they're getting 4K out of what esentially is a 243? They must have found the sweet spot. I'm going to look into this. BTW,, who's making dies for it?

Along these lines, I've been looking at a 6BR for the misses. What advantage, if any, will this round would have over the 6BR? Our guys are using 30" tubes and 28gr of varget to get the 107SMK to 2800fps. It's also a VERY accurate round, but would NEVER get to 3100fps in standard form. There in may be the key to success.

It's amazing how many 6mm and 6.5mm rounds have come and gone over the years,, but people just keep coming back to them. There has to be something special about these.

Here's another interesting development -

http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=286&hl=&s=5a462f4ff333f44c33af98667a9c20d8

Don,

JW Huskey runs the HardRocks down south of Opilaka (sp??). When he gets me the schedule for next season I'll send it to you and the council for review. Maybe I can compile a southeast match schedule and hit them with a seasons worth for TN, AL, GA and KY. I'd include Fl,, but no one shoots in florida do they ;)) (baiting Tam308 and Mr. Moe, who have been absent as of late)

FatBoy...

"There's no place on earth you can prevent me from putting a US Special Forces soldier if we want to.

"There's no place on earth you can hide from a Special Forces soldier."

Bwahahahahahahaha.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/04/yemen.blast/index.html

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 21:47:40 (ZULU)

ROTFLMMFAO

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 22:37:21 (ZULU)

Wes writes: First, I would strongly advocate the 6.5 X .284 as a replacement for the .308 AND 300 Win Magnum.<<<<

OK, good so far.

>>>In an anti-personnel role ONLY.<<<

OK, what other role is there for any of these rounds? Light AP work is probably better off with the faster, higher sectional density 6.5mm anyways. Anti-material work is better with 50cal

>>>>The only draw back is barrel life. Not a big deal to us, but to the services and those that shoot large quantities of ammo is a concern. As is returning the rifles for the proper echelon of maintenance. For that reason and ammo commonality issues the .308 will continue to be the round of choice.<<<<

As I said earlier, the only reason is that the military R&D is cheap, mentally lazy and riddled with bureaucratic inertia. There is NO real reason that we can't change barrels on sniper rifles at 3K vice 5K or 7K except for the fact that we don't have a realistic system for getting the rifles fixed. Push the 2112's down to the Rgt level and train more of them. Give them the basic tools to fix most of the problems on the rifles and then have a Div machine shop that can be used by the Rgt 2112's 24/7 when needed. At the same time, back off the 2112 commitment to the rifle teams and focus on the guys killing our enemies. That is the reason for our military, right? Get each sniper a spare rifle and two spare scopes. For the USMC we're still talking less than 4000 rifles at double strength levels. If we adopted the same mentality to any other piece of military gear we'd still be using P51's, M4 Shermans and M1 Garands. No point in those F117's and B2's(or freaking any aircraft(fixed or rotary) for that matter), they require too much maintainence right?

>>>>Since it's not likely to be replaced soon let's look at it's strong points. Common caliber...found everywhere. Every conceivable type of round made for it. <<<<

OK, who's ever going to develop another caliber? Face it, without military money, jack shit gets done for development of anything that requires real money. All the API, and other ammo is illegal so there's not going to be civvie money for it. Besides there is no civvie demand for it. The same thing killed US suppressor development for 60 years. We going to wait for some oil shiek with a glimmer of IQ and the charisma to get away with enforcing discipline on the third worlders who adopt it? The rags are about due for another Saladin.

>>>>>The .308 has benefited from 50 years of use and development.<<<<

I don't see how maxed out development is an advantage. There's no where left to go with the 308. The bullets are maxed out, something like those 155 scenars are the last hurrah for the 308, imagine what happens when that bullet design gets to the 7mm or the 6.5's.

>>>>Additionally, it performs well out of short barrels.<<<<

Short barrels suck for mil use without a can. You fire and your hide turns into a tossed salad and the bush you were blading on catches on fire;) Short barrels are fine for cops, but I'm not talking cop guns. Sorry guys, but I think you'll be better off not using mil experience as a crutch for gear.

>>>>The larger bore diameter and expansion ratio really go to work in the 20" barrel and just get better in 24-26" tubes.<<<<

Wes, efficiency is nice, but effectiveness is what I'm interested in. IMO a 338-08 would be the true path for a suppressed SWS. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 22:39:12 (ZULU)

All Politically Incorrect Rosta' Hawgs: I hope you will take the time to vote tomorrow. Lots of focus on Florida......it seems Clinton is down there with his pard, Janet Reno, trying to roust out the vote for the Dems. You Florida guys really have to "rally around the rifle" and make sure the anti-Constitution folks get their butts kicked. Remember.....it was firearms owners that kept Al Gore out of the White house, and now we need to retake the House and Senate.

'Lito: I wish you would share the secret.....rifles reproducing in the far, dark corners of your basement? I wonder what my Sharpshooter and Stealth would produce....they stand next to each other in the safe.

Sniper Country Rifle: I agree with Don, a Winnie push feed action, but if George is doing the work I'd concede that a Remy would be all right. I've been eyeing the Winchester Coyote model in .308, since the Stealths are so hard to find......not that I need another rifle, but, aw, you know.

I really enjoy the discussion here....and remember....VOTE!

Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Country, MN, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 22:40:28 (ZULU)

HAWGS

I have a question regarding Twist Rate.

I am planning to install a new barrel on my Rem 700 300WM.

What Twist Rate would be best for shooting bullets in the 190-220grn class.

Your input will be put to good use.

Thanks,

Bryan

bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 22:41:24 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Went and shot the stealths .223s today. Cold outside. Now they are warming up on the kitchen table, with condensation forming all over them. Being rust-adverse, I will be cleaning the hell out of them once kiddies go to sleep. Now, the question:

I hate removing the actions from the bedding (maybe once a year, but not yet). Is pulling a silicon cloth through the barrel channel good enough for the moisture?

Or, Should I worry about the internals and just take em down? Will the evaporation plus dissicants in the safe take care of it?

Last time either were cleaned internally, I put in some protective coats (except the trigger assy). In Alaska, I didn't have any problem, but the air was much, much drier than here. I would hate to open them up in December and find orange parts! Need advice.

BTW- Blake is a damn natural. He was hitting milk jugs at 300 and 400 yds. SPLASH!!! I love those things. Wind negligable, mirage non existant, perfect sunny day. And, my VXII is 4-12x...I was confused with the other glass at 4.5-14. Someone corrected me a while back--but it went over my head until I had that stealth on the bench. Hell, it was a great deal, and I had given it to my wife without a second glance! OOOOPS. Guess I was wanting an even better deal than I got--but for the bucks, I still ain't complainin! A stealth in .223 is just plain fun, and two .223s are twice the fun! Shot the .260, the .270, the M21, the 10/22 and the SPR too. In all, we put 220 rounds center fire and 100 rimfire down range. Woulda put more down, but after school to EENT is only 2-1/2 hours! I did the zeroes before hand, so it was all "Dial-No dope-Dump" all afternoon. I recommend farms to all shooters. A Backyard range is the way to live.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 23:28:24 (ZULU)

TURN THE RIFFLE RAFFLE ON!!!!!!!

I have been wasting money on worse stuff than guns (food, gas, loans to kids, etc.), might as well contribute to someone else's happiness again!

I'm going to sweeten the pot this time. One of the secondary prizes will be a custom fishing rod appropriate to the winner's fishing situation, ie. lake, ocean, etc. The winner and I can work out the details later. Ken will have to work out how the drawing is done.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 23:46:55 (ZULU)

Oh, the hunting guns will come apart, and the ruuuuug--it is trash bedded and awready taken down, and the M21 is coming apart for winterizing and storage til next spring--my stealths (and SPR) are my main worry for rust as they are due for more shootin' before I close the range for the winter. That is, if I close the range for the winter. The Army gave me great cold weather gear and well, if I can find a way to to limit condensation damage without pulling the actions and stressing the bedding--why not shoot through the miserable cold?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Monday, November 4, 2002, at 23:54:44 (ZULU)

Had this long assed post typed up, deleted it my accident. I'm really ticked. I'll try again in a moment after I go shoot the Osama photo. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, November 4, 2002, at 23:56:02 (ZULU)

Sinister,

Baaawhaha! That mentality--"I can put SF anywhere..." is the scariest part of being there. Some minion decides to make a point and guess who sits on that point? SF is capable as hell, but not superhuman. Care MUST be taken in employing these forces. We ain't exactly growing these guys on trees and careless employment is a huge waste. We used to joke that chance contacts would last the rest of our lives...And operating without support, that hasn't changed! Buzzsaw will tell ya--he led enough resistance to wait out extraction, but barely. 10 more minutes on that 'Hawk woulda meant body bags, not hot chow on the friendly side of the berm. I just hope that another Shelton gets the nod someday. A dose of reality in the headshed never hurt...

My M3 LR off the M21 is going to premier. Once done, it goes on the SPR, and then that one goes to premier. I just sold my F150! Yihaa. The rest will set blake up with mildots and fund the "next riffle."

Riffle Raffle Riffle Raffle

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Eau Claire, WI, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 00:14:25 (ZULU)

Project rifle,

Does anyone want to do a ballot or vote on each aspect of the rifle? Have one website or member gather and tabulate one vote per member for caliber, builder, stock, etc. If not, I fear I may not live long enough to see a decision made much less buy one. :)))

Newcomers,

Welcome aboard. New blood is always refreshing.

Bolt,

Great idea. I need a medium heavy 7' for texas largemouth. Seriously, do you build rods? Drop me a note, I do need one.

I met Bill Moore today. Another fine example of S/C character. A true gentleman and scholar, except for the snake "thing". :)))

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 00:15:20 (ZULU)

OT> There is a computer virus going around called the "oops". It is in the subject line. My son got it last week and even though his Norton Virus protection was up to date, it didn’t help. Told him the email had a virus as his computer was crashing. Everything he has tried, including formatting the hard drive, hasn’t worked. I just got an email that had "Oops I forgot to give you the download" in the subject. Deleted that sucker in a hurry.

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 00:17:57 (ZULU)

I've shot M80 pulled down from link and if you think it's going to buy you anything in range over a scoped 5.56, you're dreaming. The only advantage over the 5.56 is vs cover or glass and you'd better have a dope sheet made up for it because it ain't going to track the cam. It'll be close out to maybe 300, but WTF is the point of using a SWS at those piddling ranges? Might as well use the M16 and not give away that there's a sniper about. And as I've mentioned before, if the guys who have to shoot vs glass have to use pulled down M80, we're pathetic and we deserve to be wiped from the earth. I'm just an E5, but even I plan well enough to ensure that this would NEVER happen. What sort of desperate situation are we talking here, militarily speaking? The ship didn't bring any? The logistics guys don't allot it? You are not going to be walking down the street to Kadafi's House of Guns to pick up a case of GMM308-2 either. Either the unit brought the proper ammo for the sniper rifles or they didn't. Whether it's 308 or 30-30, anything else is of only very limited utility.

>>>>> Someone mentioned practice with your 308 and then just shoot the "Big One" once in awhile. It doesn't work!! The thing that kills you is your wind calls. I was not as consistant on my wind calls when switching back and forth between the two calibers. I would either over compensate or under compensate for it with both calibers.<<< edited for brevity(I'm trying)

Pat, IMO, you're problem is that you're not estimating the wind in mph and getting your correction off an accurate dope chart. You're SWAG'ing and it's biting you in the ass. The best technique IMO is to estimate the wind in mph, then take the dope off a laminated dope card for the caliber/bullet/velocity you're shooting. It's won't matter whther it's a 308, a 6.5-284, a 30-30 or a 40mm HEDP. You're getting the same wind estimation regardless, you're just reading a different card. No SWAG, no guessing(just the wind value) and reading off an objective number. Since the first shot is all that we care about as a sniper(and the correction will be immediate by the spotter) it doesn't matter what your following corrections are. The value of an objective card was made clear to me at Perry during the Rattle Battle this year when I watched almost everybody underdope the wind. Nobody wanted to believe that it was 5.5 minutes of wind, but that's what the chart said, and despite a lot of hesitiation, that's what we went with. I hit 13 and 14 at 600 and my faith in this system was rewarded. It's what I plan on teaching all my guys when we actually get some ammo. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 00:19:45 (ZULU)

Jerry Stordahl:

"I've been eyeing the Winchester Coyote model in .308, since the Stealths are so hard to find......not that I need another rifle, but, aw, you know."

Got one. After I got the barrel channel squared away and the basics of torquing a wood stock sorted out, it's a .5" rifle with the standard 175 SMK and 44 gr of Varget.

That said, still want a Stealth if I can't make the FN SPR trade work.

Don

Any news on the Rifle Raffle?

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 00:20:47 (ZULU)

KenM; I follow your logic but one should always honor the first rule of combat. If shit can happen it will & does. Or is it "the best laid plans of Snipers and Men...go to hell in a handbag...on the field of battle.... in the mire and muck of a landing gone to shit and Ammo running low! or something like that! :0).

Or; the fewer plans you make the less likely your plans will go wrong! The more things you can think off to conpensate for the less you will have too.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:00:16 (ZULU)

John,

Have been building fishing rods and repairing reels since '86. Will email you.

Ken M.,

Type your posts in Word or Notepad and then copy/paste to DR. Have been bit many times myself!

Also, on wind stuff. How far out do you trust your wind calls? What distance would you bet your arse on in other words?

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:05:53 (ZULU)

BRogers, yep, and that's why I carry a M16&M9 also. The SWS is for when YOU think the time is right to engage. If it looks bad, don't shoot. Jump on the radio and get the cannon cockers some work. Stay invisible and live longer.

Gooch, I am too determined(or too stupid/maybe both) to let these bastards get me down. I don't know whether to be sad that other people have to deal with the same shit or happy that I'm not the only person to deal with this. It isn't really any different than the other units I've been in, but some of the things I've adopted as work arounds to facilitate training could really bite me in the ass if I screw up. Unfortunately, the other alternative is no training whatsoever, and that is unacceptable. Anyways, these clowns don't write my fitreps so I stay on the attack. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:07:53 (ZULU)

Gents,

First post from a long time lurker in Australia - Thanks for the chance to partake in your collective wisdom, wit and charitable good will to those experiencing uncertainty.

Michael.

Michael H <michael.hickey@cbr.defence.gov.au>
NSW, Australia - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:12:54 (ZULU)

Ken M,

Some situations there is no ship coming into the POE; there is no Logistics except the ruck and it's well thought contents plus the scrounge of whatever host nation you're operating in overtly or covertly. The availability of common calibers is always a consideration...unless you operate in the bigger army (as I do now). NATO or Soviet standard fodder is widely available--and not all units rely on the logistic footprint that you alluded to. Gotta remember that today's circumstances are too easily applied to all circumstances. It just ain't so. Too bad it took a whole career to figure that out...

And since we are looking at the desert, wow! Lookit the range we can shoot! Problem is, we ain't buying ordnance for just this place...and most of the world where people live (and we fight) ain't desert. And people don't stand in the open feeling safe at any range when they mean you harm. Snipers will always look at 1000 meters as an exceptionally long shot no matter how capable the rig is that we give them. The rolling terrain and the bad guy's propensity to "hide" usually limit your ranges. A 2000 yard wonder riffle can't shoot through the hill....and 99.99% of the shooters can't do better than 3/4moa all day every day, let alone under enormous stress. For this, we give the spotter a radio. Arty is pretty good at getting over the terrain. So, How good do you need in a tactical situation? Now the CIA can build all the one-offs it wants for surgically precise shots under unique conditions--but the military doesn't go there. Cost, laziness, or whatever has nothing to do with it. Practicality does. I know you can shoot, but unless the conditions are just so, I have trouble getting anywhere close to my rifle's potential on a given day. And my riffles are far and away more accurate than most in the inventory of the same, and I have the recipts to prove it. Now, let's review. We need GBMs, and planes to lob them, ships of all types to get there, boolits for the masses and passable riffles for the same, clothes, chow, support gear, training, helicopters for my pleasure, and whatnot et-al. Where should we pinch the budget for a wonder gun sniper system for general use? Cut the spotter? How much training can we fund to get our shooters to proficiency? How much does a .308 match round cost vs. a round of this wonder caliber? How much more proficient can we make our shooters with a cheaper round that gets it done vs. an expensive round? I'd rather have my guys shoot gobs of 308 that will do all I ask of it than to give them a magic stick and fifteen annual boolits that costs the same as that case lot of obsolete .308. I give the edge to training--and if training is lacking, let's not raise the costs needlessly. If you can't shoot the M24/ M40--then pass it to your spotter. And for the record...I was the spotter for that very reason. My shooter was just betterer. Everytime I posted a gain, so did he. And I liked that M21 anyway...heheh. No flame on this rant--just the big-picture on why the 308. BTW--the 308 is a MG round for the same reasons--it is cheap to make. And cheap equals training opportunity--IMHO the best reason for anything.

BTW-- My sticks have evaporated the condensation--no big worries. But gawd, were they wet!!!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:23:25 (ZULU)

Also, on wind stuff. How far out do you trust your wind calls? What distance would you bet your arse on in other words?<<<<

Well, that depends on what kinda hurt is going to fall on me when I shoot;) Honestly, I just try to get a good wind estimation. Read the mirage, look at your wind indicators, and make the best call you can on wind, in mph and value. Then you go to your card, which I now have attached to my Mildot master(Thank you, Bruce Robinson!!!) read the corresponding dope adjustment, crank it on and shoot. The nice thing about this is that you can see how the better wind buckers help you. Instead of thinking in minutes of wind, you can think in mph and how much a missed wind call will effect your results. I suppose you could memorize your wind chart, but we already have 47 thousand other things to memorize(radio freqs, challenges and passwords, phase lines, brevity codes etc etc ad naseum) and it just seems like a waste of brain capacity.

As to your question, in fairly calm wind, I'd say about 800yds gives me about 80%+ hit chance. That's taking my range est into account also. Conditions are going to dictate your range, but I'd say about 650 is my 98% range under anything less than a hurricane. I'll let you know how much this goes up when I get the 280AI running. S/F..Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:25:16 (ZULU)

Here's a question for the masses...

We've been kicking the 7mm's over for the last few days,, and my main reason for this discussion was longer barrel life over the 6.5x284.

I'm sitting here looking at my loads and wondering how the hell a 260rem shooter can push a 142smk with 45 to 46gr of Varget and get 4000 rounds out of a tube when I'm pushing the same pill with 50.5gr of H4831SC and getting 800. I'm using a much slower powder in a charge only 5gr larger. WTF?? 5 grains can't be deciding factor for a difference of 3200 rounds of barrel life,,, can it?

FatBoy...

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/11/04/us.assassination.policy/index.html

Where two fools met!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:30:50 (ZULU)

JoeM,

As much as I agree with most of what you just said, two things come to mind to counter.

1. There are at least 4 NATO countries fielding the 338Lapua.

2. Anyone that thinks 6.5x284 is hard to get ahold of, try getting 338Lapua.

The 338 kicks harder, burns more powder, burns more barrels, is harder to train a guy on (especially my pie faced, flinchin' ass), and is WAY more expensive to shoot. Cheap brass is $1.50 a stick, not to mention those huge ass bullets and 70+ grains of powder. None of that stopped Finland, Canada, New Zealand or (Denmark maybe?) from fielding the round. If I'm talking out my ass here,, anyone with solid info otherwise please stop me.

Who the baddest motherf*ckers on the block? We are,, and we should keep it that way. I'll cut one months dollar for dollar federal match for the goddamn interstate projects to buy our guys, and I guess Marines too, as much of whatever they wanna shoot as that $20,000,000 will buy. We got it, looks at what they spend on goddamn orange barrels every year!! It's like fat ass Ted Kennedy said, "Senetor,, a billion here, and billion there,,, pretty soon your talking about some real money." Fat bastard... only thing he ever said that makes sense,, except calling his dog splash,, but I digress....

No slam, no ruffled feather intended for anyone,, I'd just like to see our people have the best for once.

FatBoy...

MK4 -

OK, smartass. Where did you get that picture of my tricked out M4? :-) I don't think that's what the boys have in mind for a tactical SC specific stick!

Fred Robbins -

Another Swamprat joins the fray! I bet you don't shoot either! (See below!)

FatBoy -

>>JW Huskey runs the HardRocks down south of Opilaka (sp??). When he gets me the schedule for next season I'll send it to you and the council for review. Maybe I can compile a southeast match schedule and hit them with a seasons worth for TN, AL, GA and KY. I'd include Fl,, but no one shoots in florida do they ;)) (baiting Tam308 and Mr. Moe, who have been absent as of late)<<

You're right. It's too damn hot down here to shoot. Might perspire all over them purty stocks and such.

There's only a couple of 600 yard ranges in Florida and only one 1,000 yard range (Camp Blanding FLNG). I'd be interested in the HardRock schedule also.

I just got back from the Boston area. My mom (83) is now in a convelescent home after falling and breaking her pelvic bone. Spent time getting her house buttoned down for the winter, made some needed repairs, got some legal work done (I now have POA for her), etc, etc.

Just when I thought I was getting all over my physical problems from this past year, this crap happens to mom. Unfortunately, she's also exibiting signs of dementia and alzheimers so I don't think she'll ever be going back home again.

I hope 2003 is a better year.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 01:56:01 (ZULU)

Some situations there is no ship coming into the POE; there is no Logigistics except the ruck and it's well thought contents plus the scrounge of whatever host nation you're operating in overtly or covertly. <<<<<

Right, I normally carry about 50rds for the SWS, but I normally plan for 72hrs. It would be no problem to double that, or even triple and that would last much longer than my expected lifetime should I actually need to fire that many rounds from the SWS. The only time you'll need to get additional rounds is if you plan on doing training in country(which may very well happen), you need to re-zero(gee, that three rounds) or if you wind up being the Angel of Death and take out entire platoons. As for host nations, a buddy was working in B-H and for all the vaunted BS about NATO commonality, there was NO 5.56x45 or 7.62 to be had by them. The pussies at Evil Base didn't think they needed ammo to train and so the only thing they had was 9mm for the MP-5's. Hopefully, your guys at CJSOTF were better supported in this regard.

>>>>The availability of common calibers is always a consideration...unless you operate in the bigger army.<<<<

Well, I'm USMC so since I steal things from the Army we better have the same stuff;) Again, common ammo with the machine gun means you now have a single shot, loud, attention attracting, scoped M16A2 accuracy rifle.

>>>>>Problem is, we ain't buying ordnance for just this place...and most of the world where people live (and we fight) ain't desert.<<<<

Let's look at the places where we are going to likely be killing MF's in the near future. The deserts of the ME: After we crush Iraq, I'll bet we do SA or Iran, maybe both. Lots of distance either place. We go to NK, lots of mountains, lots of long range shooting during the last war. We go back to A-stan to unscrew it when Kharsai fails, more long range shooting. The only wild card is if we do Columbia or some crap like that, but it's lots easier to make short shots with the long gun than it is to make long shots with the 308. The USMC average for DS/DS was 700 yds according to rumor, that means more than a few were made longer than that.

>>>> I know you can shoot, but unless the conditions are just so, I have trouble getting anywhere close to my rifle's potential on a given day.<<<<

Right, but where the flatter calibers advantages come from is the fact that they help to hide errors in range estimation and wind doping, not in accuracy. I agree that we usually can't shoot up to the rifle, but that isn't the point, it's letting the rifle help cover our errors and still put holes in the Tangoes. We need to get two different calibers, go out to UKD ranges and shoot targets. Whatever has more hits, wins. It's not just mechanical accuracy that's important.

>>>>Where should we pinch the budget for a wonder gun sniper system for general use?<<<<

You do know that whatever we spend on a rifle for both the US Army and USMC is rediculously f**king trivial compared to the cost of just one C-17, right?

>>>>How much training can we fund to get our shooters to proficiency?<<<<

Minimum 1000rds per shooter per year sustainment. I figure that you should burn 2800 rds in initial training, then a three week repair cycle and then another class starts.

>>>>How much does a .308 match round cost vs. a round of this wonder caliber?<<<<

Well, the 1/1 SSP T-shirt said a round of M118 was 43cents. The quote on the shirt was "Your life is only worth 43cents." I'll see if I can get on Fedlog tomorrow and see what M118LR costs per round, but if the military started buying something like 6.5-284 the cost would go down. The 6.5-284 uses a little more brass and less lead and guilding metal, so from a materials standpoint it's about the same. Different calibers would have different results.

>>>> How much more proficient can we make our shooters with a cheaper round that gets it done vs. an expensive round?<<<<

I don't know. Depends on the price differential. You can't go much lower than my current ammo allocation, not without me writing love letters to my congressman.

>>>'d rather have my guys shoot gobs of 308 that will do all I ask of it than to give them a magic stick and fifteen annual boolits that costs the same as that case lot of obsolete .308.<<<<

I agree, but we don't know what the cost differential is, and regardless we both know that the amounts of money our respective services spend on ammo for sniper training is a f**king joke. I guarentee that our rifle teams eat more money than the sniper programs do, if you take out the optics budget, and maybe even if you don't.

>>>I give the edge to training--and if training is lacking, let's not raise the costs needlessly.<<<<

Agree, but I don't expect the piddling amounts of money we're talking to be the real issue.

>>>If you can't shoot the M24/ M40--then pass it to your spotter.<<<<

That's the one thing I'm comfortable with in this whole mess:) I just look for every edge I can get. There is a reason that the 6.5's are dominating LR. It would be nice to have the military back on the cutting edge of the state of the art for a little while in something other than what the USG has made illegal for Joe Citizen. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 02:13:25 (ZULU)

Chris,

The one thing that stands out about those guys and thier 338 lapuas is they don't deploy a whole helluva lot now do they? If it comes down to us defending the good ol' US of A, then you'll likely see whatever Mr. Second Ammendment has in his basement. OK, so we go with the 338. We divert some cash from the rich, forego a couple of potholes on I95, and burn out 2500 barrels this year. Then we forego the same potholes, cut back on the round count, and rebarrel. Now we have some half-assed trained snipers running around with a kickin' gun that makes em flinch and miss at 400. Gee wiz. Or, we brake them and they get smoked when their hide goes poof after their first shot. Now, having played army all over this damn planet...I have noticed how limited my fields of fire were. It pissed me off, cause the book says my hellfire can go XX kilomters, my TOWs 3750 m, etc, but I just didn't have LOS for that. Rats. Most engagements on the ground get to 600 with a little angling here and there...but the same terrain that limits you also limits the enemy, and you can get to 400 with a nice defilade to E&E you ass safely away after the shot. A 308 does it fine. It does it cheaply, so we can do it often--and the more you can shoot--the better you are gonna be period. The barrels last through training cycles and the bullets are always cheap. Remember, that 2000+ shot is a blue moon, low percentage with anything against a point target, and a lazy (or arrogant) dismissal of the arty assets. If you want a one off target, we have the tools on hand, and the specialists to do that. But the rank and file snipers are well served by the 308. In war and in peace. Gawd, we used to beat this one to death in the team room. It was always "what if.." but everytime we employed our sticks, they met the requirement. Every damn time. If they couldn't--then it wasn't even a viable option with a "sniper howitzer". We interdicted with alternate means. That PAQ laser designator sure made some things easy! Demo, off site systems' interdiction, whatever. Always a betterer way if the one shot thing wasn't feasible.

Cheap and available= training, and more of it.

Expensive and hard on barrels= restrictions of the worst kind.

If they chamber the 240B, the minis and the sniper riffles for 338 Lap; then the equation changes. But then: How many guys would we need just to hump those spare barrels? Heheh. The bottom line is the world's terrain limits your shot mostly to the point where the 308 shines as bright as any cartridge--and bad guys don't walk across big empty fields--or at least not the ones that we want to shoot. The mass production of the type makes all 308 cheap; and the recoil is fine for most candy-asses and serious shooters alike. No brake, limited report, easy on the hardware and shooter, all makes perfect military sense. Hell, wanna spend money? Give George a contract for our boys. But the round ain't going anywhere this decade.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 02:31:04 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

Just read this disturbing thread on AR15.com. It seems now that Honor Guards are not welcome at Golden State Warriors games.....

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=112&t=152796

Check it out and drop the "Warriors" a line, there's a email link.

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 03:04:53 (ZULU)

The following should be of interest.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29524

One concern is certainly internal to the good people of the US. And our so-called representatives should quit trying to disarm good law abiding citizens for they only serve those that would overtake the US through violent means and destroy the Republic.

All the best,

Rick, out

Rick Fiero <rafiero@mindspring.com>
Greenbrae, Ca, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 03:23:54 (ZULU)

Brian...

Get a 10" twist... it will do all but the 240 SMK.

Don Smith... no need for a tapered base... the 7.62 reticle uses a flat base. Call Springfield for a manual, cuz it takes a bit of learnin' to make it workie (same as any rangefinding reticle).

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 03:25:52 (ZULU)

Ken,

(this gets into DoD budgets--so skip unless coffee is on-hand):

I still remember the pissing contests just getting sniper programs going in the eighties. It colors my thoughts on this subject. We aren't dealing with shooters at the top; these are overly promoted grunt/ transportation officers with little knowledge on this subject. My political bone (my only political bone, if you can believe that) is to minimize impacts AND still get the job done. This keeps the whole program from becoming a hot potato. Your post missed a couple of variables. NEOs outta west africa, intervention in Sri Lanka, Kashmir, or why not? Indonesia. Certain units have the big 50s, and there is talk for a pair at battalion level. Smart move, but outside the basic argument. The real fast rounds just ain't going into the inventory until metalurgy takes a step forward. Those Poli-officers in DC won't go for it...shit, you shoulda seen the fight to get the M24 fielded in the first place! There is some use for the hot rounds, but not in the mainstream. You can do all the math you want, but the budget cycle goes out twenty years at the SECDEF level. Once you figure the apportionment into what is essentially a niche field, add in all the barrels that will be used up, developmental costs for this change, three service agreements to the specs, tooling costs to DoD, select a manufacturer for the sticks, calc in the training and other recurring costs, do it all over a twenty year period--and all for a very small group of infantrymen (tis how snipers are seen at that level), and the answer comes back--hell no. Use what you got. Now, for spec-ops, they do their own thing on the budget apart from all the services--straight into the cycle, no council of colonels to dicker with--these guys could do it. Why haven't they? Because the 308 suplemented with a 50 gets the job done.

Dude, there are so many restrictions to making this change, I could go on all day. Retooling of the arsenals to roll our own, Aberdeen load testing, etc. And for what? A very smal handfull of snipers? Until a sniper gets four stars, it's just a non-starter for all the reasons I've stated previously. So, use that 60mm mortar for NK mountains, and the snipers for disrupting C&C for those massed attacks.

Back when I was in the harness (T-10Bs with dial-o-deaths) or even the foxhole, I used to think "well, why the hell not?" It drove me nuts to see the Mod 50-style radios the Brits had when I had the PRC-70 or an X/PRC-104 that was obselete before fielding. Now that I have seen how this shit runs, I kinda understand. Don't like it one bit, but I see how force mod and budget cycles get a very large job done somewhat efficiently--and it has gen'd over many times since the $400 hammers of the early eighties. Fortune 50 model on our systems now! No shit. But that understanding also sparks my arguments against the betterer boolits. It got buried in the exponents of multi-year resourcing.

I agree with you and Chris--in that the "senior sniper teams" in each company should shoulder a better stick; I agree that the 308 has shortcomings...but I also know the budgeting systems that would make it so, and all the reasons not to bother. Priorities are set for 5 years, and sniper systems didn't make this cut. Nor are they on the ten year projection. The twenty year plan seems to make snipers obselete with energy weapons, but that ain't worth the paper it's written on. And local commanders' hands are tied by JAG interpretations of "issue" items. Can't just go it alone either. So, what's the point? If I were Chief, I'd change that. But if pigs could fly, then we'd be in luck...hahahaha. I'm terminal-in-grade, if only because I have argued this point and many just like it too often and have had enough. One more ride, then out. I got too big a mouth to shut up in the face of senior "never been theres."

And remember Line-of-sight is a two way street. Maybe you may want to find a better hide to put the adversary at some sort of disadvantage. The NKs spent fifty years thinking about conquest, you think they don't know good sniper positions just by reading the map? Oh, back to the arty thing too. They got shitloads of it, and a battery five on a prominent point on a ridge is chump change to them. How many long shots you think you'll get with steel fragments all over your position? Best to start over-estimating the enemy some. Something about a lack of old, bold snipers (or pilots, or grunts...). Did I say steel fragments? That's the nicest they'd do-- I meant VX, GB or some shit we never heard of...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 03:40:06 (ZULU)

Lito,

You got mail, N/A.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 03:49:22 (ZULU)

Ken/Joe:

It is good to know we got guys like you two on the ground. Thanks so much for taking care of our business overseas.

We cops fight the same battles with admin. Most SWAT commanders are door kickers and not Snipers and they have no idea what their Snipers can do for them and no real desire to learn. Much less any desire to meet a Snipers expensive assed equipment needs. What is a drop in the bucket for Uncle Sam is big bucks for Podunk PD. Occasionaly, you will find a Sniper trained supervisor but they are rare. So, I feel your pain.

Changing the subject. Saw a sign on the wall at Benning in the Service Rifle Team room. Showed a small African boy ala BHD with a machine gun. The caption read something like this:

He has been fighting all his life. He has fought barefoot, hungry and underclothed in the heat and cold. He has seen friends and family die. Now that he has the same weapon you do, who is the better soldier ? ... Made ME think, anyway.

When's the raffle and how do you sign up ?

Anybody from here going to the Houston Gun Show this weekend ?

Regards all,

bks

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 03:53:26 (ZULU)

Long posts are fine, I rather enjoy in depth stuff, I read about 240 WPM so it doesn't take long. I've got two(2) M82A1A Barrets and while they are useful in some situations they have rather limited utility because they are such a PITA to move around. It would be much better if we had NVD's for them, for all our SWS's for that matter. 308's for anti-personel work and 50's for heavy stuff is what we have. It works well enough, perhaps I'll have more info in 6 monthes;)

NEO's are generally good work for the SSP since they are usually the only guys who get anything like decent ROE's. Often as not they sit on top the embassy and shoot locals who get stupid. In Somalia, a bunch of Marine snipers took out an assload of Sammies for the 10th Mtn guys, most shots were right around 1K. Chandler's books cover it in good detail, 2nd book mainly IIRC.

I hear you on the budget thing, just not enough political kickback to get it done. It's such a giant mess that you can't change anything in any meaningful time period. I'm getting that on a small scale now.

NK's, yeah, it'll be tough for the 2nd ID in Korea, but the NK's will have to move all that arty south too and that's where the airdales ought to earn their keep and make our lives easier, should it come to that. The chemical agents I'm not too worried about, we've got the new gear and I operate far enough afield to not be worth the chemical attacks for just one team. Besides, tipping over twitching beats hell out of getting torn apart by some Sammies after running out of ammo. It would give GW a nice excuse to nuke their ass though and that wouldn't bother me one bit. Gooch might not like being downwind in Japan though. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 04:11:28 (ZULU)

My opinion on the ideal SC rifle is to keep it simple, following what has been discussed the most over the years. Something that has been proven to work well, every time. Think of this as being the rifle package you would recommend to a trainee or first time LR shooter as well as a proficient and experienced marksman. The same type of rifle that will allow a shooter to develop new skills but quality enough to last a lifetime.

Winnie M70 push feed, 26" 5R, Badger base and rings, and a Loopy MKIV.

Oh, it will be in .308. Throat the chamber appropriately to match a factory loaded Federal GM/Black Hills/Talon (choose), and let the shooter set up his OWN rangecard in concert with the Loopy of choice (M1/M3).

In my mind, the most important thing is who is turning the wrench and overseeing the project!

Specialty calibers and custom items have a place for specialty applications, but not for a base issue type platform. I'll bet the majority here will vote for a similar setup.

Ready for incoming, dug in like a tick on a hound!

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 04:28:46 (ZULU)

Ken (and all the ahwgs subjected to my long windedness):

Sorry for the deluge of all that extraneous BS budget crap. I'm thinking we both said the same thing after all--just from a user vs a planner perspective. If you keep at it, someone will hear you. Someday, it may get presented to those who make the call.

My perspective is from both sides now--user now planner. But with each rank came bigger units. Decisions were for the greater good and sustainment, not necessarily what is best for any one sub-group of troops. The wider the net you have, the more generalized your perspective. Most officers come from a specific background (armor, etc) with a joint assignment in a staff and maybe a tour in aquisition corps (or other "detail" assignments). Then one day they have decision making authority over the whole mess--aviation, arty, and a host of other things they've only read about and played with on the periphery (call for fire, fires cometh). Limited at best. You awready hit that one on the head--and these senior dudes are the key to making it all better...or worse through presentations from guys like us. If we blow it, we eat shit. If we nail it, maybe someday change comes. Currently, there are few voices for snipers in the headshed. And until the need is shown for a change, enjoy the 7.62 NATO!

Joe M., the Insomniac poster fool!

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 05:05:26 (ZULU)

John,

It was a pleasure to meet you & since you had to fly off... I had that Con Queso and a Becks in your honor!! HA! Folks,

John is Numba One!- no limitations in sight and loves good rifles. He also flys in a plane smaller than my car and carries a rubber band to start the prop! Good thing is, one parachute servers to float both pilots and plane safely down...

I look forward to times when I can get to some matches/schools and meet more of youz guyz.

On the SC rifle and Mikes mention of the kit: I kinda went this way to get into a good rifle on a tight budget. George trued the action and installed a match barrel and I bedded it(with some great advice) in the stock I dug up, one piece at a time and I learned alot along the way. May have lost some of the .01's in accuracy but it will be along time before I can shoot the dif...

I have used up this months post already :(

Later.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 05:17:25 (ZULU)

Guys, I made some calls today and have an estimated idea of what these rifles would cost based on the following generic idea of my own. Subject to change based on someone's better idea.

Action: SA Remington, for availability and price. (Winchesters are expensive to buy about $200 more for actions in quantity)

Caliber: 308 Win, Will Use a special PTG Reamer set up for 175's at 2.800 OAL. Reloaders and factory amunition buyers will both like it.

Stock: McMillan A3 or M40A1/HTG, Or HS Non Adjustable. With McMillan We can come up with a special blend of color for the camo. Something besides the traditional McMillan Camo colors.

Barrel: Mike Rock, talked to him today and he would offer some special pricing for the S.C. Rifle. 24" 308 Stainless 5R 1-11.27 twist. Will shoot 150 to 200gr but is sweet for the 175's

Trigger guard: Badger, talked to Marty and we can get these in a quantity discount, so why bother going for a cheaper model. Badger is the best.

Recoil Lug: Badger

Base & Rings: Badger, again group pricing will be the ticket, Marty can have the traditional Badger Ordnance markings on the base replaced with "Sniper Country Rifle" or whatever name is decided on.

Markings: Whatever we want on the right side rear of barrel. Must be the same on all.

Based on a 15 gun minimum order, I’ve come up with the following pricing:

Going with Undudes Idea:

$1450 Un-bedded and parkerized only, Barrel bead blasted satin finish (ready for paint) I can cut for pillars and supply them to those who want them.

$1950 pillar bedded and finished in KG mil-spec coating. Olive or Black

This is based on 15 rifles and would change if order is smaller.

Scopes: I can get OEM Leupold Pricing on MK4 or LR M1/M3 if we want to make a group purchase.

Would like to know how many guys are interested for sure. Please Email me with your name and how many you want. This will generate a list of people that want the rifles and then I can set up a group email and we can discuss what the rifle should be. And come up with a final draft.

If the above Idea stinks then just email me and tell me to F*&# Off.

a10xrifle@aol.com

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com >
N.Kansas City, MO, 64116 - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 05:39:09 (ZULU)

Hi,

I have read posts about the FN SPR where people have only bedded the recoil lug. Well because I am hardheaded and like to experiment, I bedded the whole action and the first two inches of the barrel. I had done just the recoil lug at first but wasnt happy with it. Has anyone else bedded the whole action on the FNSPR ?

I used Marinetex which went well. For a release agent I used Evercoat Mold Release. That stuff worked excellent. It can be either sprayed or brushed on. Once the bedding work has dried and you remove the action, the mold release just peels off like a plastic/rubber sheet. If it sticks anywhere just use a wet rag and the stuff dissolves.

BEFORE

http://bellsouthpwp.net/a/r/ar15dcm/10-27.jpg

AFTER

http://bellsouthpwp.net/a/r/ar15dcm/range-11-3.jpg

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, Georgia, US of A - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 05:44:43 (ZULU)

One of my Criminal Justice professors from years past just wrote to let me know that he'd be on TV. You guys might find this interesting.

Ron Martinelli will make a brief appearance on a History Channel documentary series airing the evening of November 15th. The series entitled either "Dangerous Missions" or "Law Enforcement Show" will discuss law enforcement snipers. Ron will be discussing "directing force from afar" and the legal aspects of sniper deployment.

It might make interesting viewing. Dr. Martinelli was one hell of a good criminal investigations instructor and a damn nice guy. He did a lot of serious undercover work and gang interdiction stuff when he was with San Jose PD.... Dont know what he knows bout sniping. Check your local listings.

Charles of Memorable Places Consulting <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 05:47:27 (ZULU)

Chris,

The 6-250 was stumbled on by accident as I understand it. It turns out the guy wanted the tapered case so it would feed better during rapid fire stages. It turns out that the case is ideal for the bullet in everyway.

The 6mmBR shooters are going to it now because they "Can not" get 3000fps out of the BR cases without pressure signs and short case life. Precision Shooting had a good article on it in both bolt guns and now in the semiautos. I just read someplace where a guy is shooting one in F class and loves it.

You mentioned barrel life, I was glancing through my new PS mag last night and a article on the subject cought my eye. When the 243 first came out they tested if for throat erosion and found that if they shot it with out letting it cool the barrel was junk in something like 700rds. If they shot it and let it cool down that went to over 3000+ rounds.

Throat erosion also has to do with case design. Some cases, 243, as and example are hard on throats. The 6MM Rem, which is faster and uses more powder, is easier on throats and you can get more rounds out of it, go figure.

Ken M.

Guilty as charged!! When I was shooting 3000 to 4000 rounds a year with the 308s I had my wind calls in my head. I would look at the mirage or the weeds and make my call (Wasn't half bad at it either). Then when I went to the 6.5s I used my wind chart until I got used to it and started SWAGing it and got bit in the ass.

The last two years have been a bear around here for shooting anyway and I know thats part of it. Last year it was gusty nearly everyday and this year it was hotter than hell and windy. I had days where the gusts double the wind call.

I was shooting steel one day and could not hit my 14"x14" steel at 740yds so I put up a some cardboard with a paper plate on it and shot at it three times. One hit on the plate and two just off the corner of it. They would have all hit the steel though. So I went back up and shot at the steel and do you think I could hit the damn thing!! I finally gave up and went home mad. Then people wonder why we drink!!

Was it you who asked about the 30 cal bullets in a .284 case?? If so they shoot very well and you can push a 168 at close to 3000fps as I recall. The one year I shot in the Varmint Hunters shoot a guy had one and loved it. He won the unlimited gun match with it. I tried talking to him about it but didn't want to give me alot of info on it.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 13:58:50 (ZULU)

Leaving to go vote. All You Sum Bitches Had Better Vote!! or strong message will follow..

If you aint voting; the politicians aint listening....

If you dont vote; YOU DON'T COUNT.

If you don't vote; YOU AINT FREE>>>

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 14:06:36 (ZULU)

Pat,

Is this the 6X that Tubb is marketing? OOps,, nope,, his is a shotened 243.. http://www.spa-simrad.com/mcmillan_TUBB_2000.html Who's making the dies?

The trouble with shooting F class and prone matches is that there is NO time to allow any cooling. Most of the guys who do well will put about 6 sighters and 20 shots for record down range in about 15 minutes, less if pit service allows.. 30 is the max time, so if you take no sighter, which doesn't happen, and shoot as slow as possible, the barrel will still be hotter than hell.

If I shot the 6.5x284 in tac matches only, and the occasional rapid fire, I could get probably twice to three times the barrel life. Course of fire seems to be key to the longevity of my tubes....

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 14:17:14 (ZULU)

George re:Official SC rifle,

Wow George, that sounds great!!! The official Sniper Country Riffle might just happen. One other suggestion would be to make it only available to registered SC "Hawgs"(that are already registered before the date you start taking orders). Kinda' makes it more specialer. I'm sure out of the (what 300+?) registered you'll get at least 15 orders (let's hope). And maybe throw on one of dem dere SSG bolt handles too? AS far as markings, I'm thinking "Official Sniper Country rifle 2002. 1 of___ (however many are made)"

Later,

RichS.

RichS. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 14:17:18 (ZULU)

Hist. Ch. Sniper specials coming up Nov. 12-17

www.historychannel.com

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 15:20:09 (ZULU)

George, great idea! I'm drooling, and already trying to figure what I can sell and/or do without to get one. First born male child comes to mind....nah, too old already.

Titan, don't rebarrel the Howa until you shoot it. Mine's a jewel, and anyone else I speak to who has one says the same.

Short post, gotta go vote.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 15:21:28 (ZULU)

Well I'm back to monitoring the DR again after a couple weeks of hard vacation. I had a great time although everything didn't quite work out how I had hoped. Oh well, off to more exciting places!

Sinister Dave, glad to meet you. Wish I'd have had more time to shoot the shit with you though. I do greatly appreciate the favor you did for me too. I had a great time and your guys are excellent people. Thanks.

Fatboy, Thanks for baby sitting my kids while I was gone. Glad to hear they didn't give you too much trouble. You could have taken them outta the closet and played with em at least once though. They wouldn't have minded, probably would have enjoyed it. You have mail also man.

Glad to see not too much has changed around here and that the shooters were finally captured. Wish that they would have been found dead though, I don't think too many people would have really minded that. Oh well, hopefully they get theirs in the end.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, US - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 15:43:59 (ZULU)

Chris,

Redding is making dies for them. The rounds quoted out of it were from a hipower shooter so it should give you a lot more barrel life for what your doing. Jr. is suppose to order his barrel within the next month because his certificate expires the end of Dec. He's trying to decide on contour right now.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 16:27:25 (ZULU)

I gotta say somfin nice (for a change HA! ;)) about a dealer.

I got this .221 Fireball Remington "Classic" on Saturday, and I ordered 500 pcs of brass from Midway, and called Sinclair for a Redding "S" bushing Neck-sizer, and a Redding BR seater for the little puppy.

Jim at Sinclair said they had the sizer, but not the seater (they come in seperate boxes), and were expecting a shipment any day with the BR die. He called me yesterday (Monday) afternoon about 3 PM (EST) and said the die didn't come in the shipment, and it would be 3 weeks til the next shipment :((

He says to call "Lock, Stock, and Barrel"... a company I have dealt with many times. So I call them at 3:15 pm yesterday, and ask if the have the dies.

They have to get back to me cuz the computer says the have them, but he can't find them. At 3:30 he calls back and says that he has the seater, but the "S" sizer is part of a kit, and he thinks he might be able to break them up. So I ask him that if he can, would he ship them to me by 3 day UPS so I could have them by the weekend, and he says he'll see what he can do.

They were on my front steps this morning when I went to vote... 18 hours later :))

Lock, Stock and Barrel are fine people to deal with.

I pulled the Classic apart last night, and stripped the trigger down to more piecs than your grand fathers pocket-watch (when you dropped it as a kid). Will stone the sear faces today.

Here on SniperCountry, we always have ways to get you INTO trouble (spend your wife's "new curtain money" on a Stealth)... but sometines you need to know how to get out of trouble.

The purpose of this post is to teach you something about getting out of trouble (Gunsmithing wise).

I Glassed the .221 action last night with Micro-Bed, one of my favorites for more than 35 years, for doing wood stocks, cuz it matches the wood, and you can't tint "Steel-Bed".

Did all the usual stuff with clay and masking tape, looked good, so I sprayed it with Brownells spray release, which I have used many times with great results. I did 3 coats.

I usually pull the action when the epoxy is about 90% set... because it is easier to trim the bleed and clean up the extra under the barrel, and it doesn't effect the bedding job.

But I did this one at 11:00 last night, and went to bed. Woke up this morning, went to vote, and got back at 8:30, and went down to pull the action... it shudda just poped out!

It don't come out!

I pulled and tugged and cussed (that has been known to help) but it didn't help... the sucka didn't budge!

Ah, ha... I'll get this puppy apart. I put a sling swivel in the forearm, and attached a strap to it, and put the other end of the strap under one of my size 14 feets, and grab the barrel, and pull, and pull, and pull... finely the sling swivel pops apart.

Now, I gotta tell you guys who haven't done bedding before... this is a VERY BADD sign!

The sombitch is in there! I am starting to wonder how much a new Classic stock costs, and picture myself chipping the old one off with an ax over the winter. :(((

And for those who think Micro-Bed isn't strong, lemme sell you a bridge, this poopie is granite strong!!!

I sat there wondering what the hell I had done wrong... I have bedded some 700 to 800 stocks over the last 40 years, and nothing like this had ever happened before. I thought the lug might be wider at the botton, but that is impossable, cuz they are stamped out. The only thing I could think of was that I had somehow missed putting clay into an indentation, and now the metal was locked in :(((

After much frustration... I came upon a plan.

I took a piece of 12"x12" heavy duty aluminum foil, and cut a window in it, about 1.5" x 1"... and put that piece over the reciever ring, down tight, so there was no air space between the foil and the ring... the window sealed the receiver tight.

Then I proceeded to heat the receiver ring with a propane torch for a hell of a long time... every few minutes, I would pull the barrel up to see if it was free... after about 15 or 20 minutes, it broke free.

Dang!

I looked at the parts to figure what had gone wrong, and it wasn't my fault... there were no unfilled indents, but the glass had stuck to about 70% of the action... the release had failed!!

It took another 15 minutes to heat the action up enough to get all the rest of the epoxie off. A big mess. Now I will have to chew out the old bedding, and redo it.

BUT... the aluminum foil had completely protected the wood, and there wasn't even a singe on it, the finish is untouched by heat.

Also... for you guys that don't know one of the best kept secrets in smithing... bronze wool (Home Depot), and brass tooth brushes. I scrubed the action with the bronze wool and mineral spirits to get every last trace of epoxie off... it makes the gun look funny, like copper plated, and you will think you have ruined the bluing, but 3 wipes with a cloth that is wet in Hoppe's #9 will remove all the bronze, and the gun looks like new... same with the brass tooth brush... it will get crud and epoxy out of threads, and other places... and leave the gun unscathed.

I'm wore out, but I still have to finish the trigger, and re-bed it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 16:42:52 (ZULU)

'lito-san,

so what will you do for releasing agent now? Would it be better to wipe on some paste release, and then spray on the Brownells' stuff?

FatBoy...

Pete Lincoln

Any word on the rings?

Sinister Dave

I don't know that I have the 1000 figured out. I had a good day coupled with good conditions. I would love to take a shot or 50 at movers. Maybe in 2003.

tschiemer

regarding the SAvage LE-2. Good rifle and good price. My friend, shooting one bone stock with Federal 168 match, shot a 199 with a decent X count at 600 yards just a couple of weeks ago at Camp Butner. This was maybe his 4th or 5th time shooting past 300 yards. Savage rifles are just fine and the only arguments you will hear against them are about the triggers and stock, both of which are perfectly serviceable. Just ask my friend or better yet take a look at his scores.

Sightron scopes

Someone asked about these. They are pretty good scopes from what I hear at Butner. Very clear. Might not be up to the rigors of field use, but just fine for the range and standatd duty. Some of the top shooters in the US shoot at camp Butner and I have seen a couple of them shooting with Sightrons.

Can someone provide me with Rick Bowcher's e-mail address? Thanks.

Curmudgeons make me chuckle on occasion.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@yahoo.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 18:43:54 (ZULU)

How about: SC.HDR#001. Serial for the class project?If the raffle riffle is a bolt rifle I'll have a ticket when it starts and hope I can get it into the country when I win it.

Stay safe & have fun.

out

G.W

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 18:50:20 (ZULU)

Broward county FL. had the longest ballot and absolutly no one in line to vote as we speak. Guys in Fl get you and your pro gun buddies to go vote we CAN MAKE A Difffrence. Guys go vote if you haven't done so..

An excited Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 19:10:21 (ZULU)

George, I'd be in for one of those rifles. I may have to sell an organ to do so. Anybody need a kidney?:) Maybe Tiger Stripe A3 stock? I'm thinking the Gen 2 LR M3 scope would be the ideal set up for optics.

Brian, I'd do this even if they didn't pay me. Hell, for a while, they weren't;) S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 19:11:26 (ZULU)

'Lito,

who makes the release agent for Brownell's if you know? I'm gonna send you an email eh, on some stuff youse can get in your backyard..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 19:34:18 (ZULU)

Re Spotting Scopes

Anyone have an opinion on the Nikon Earth & Sky 15-45X60 versus say the Windriver?

This would be for range use and some hunting.

Thanks,

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 19:44:43 (ZULU)

Catman...

That is my worst nightmare and you and I do it exactly the same way. I have been very lucky and never had one do it but an old gunsmith told me if I ever did pop it in the freezer leave it for 24hrs and then pop it out it works eveytime according to him. I truly hope I never have to find out. As they say better you than me!!(HA)

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 19:54:20 (ZULU)

FatDude...

Don't know for now. I'll use Pam to finish this one up, but I want to talk to Brownells and find out if all the slippy stuff can come out in the first few jobs and still leave something in the can that won't release? Donno!

Pat...

I've heard that "Freezer" thing since I was a kid, but it no workie. A friend tried it on an XP-100 pistol stock, and nothing got loose. And how do you put a 46" riffle in the freezer? (I don't have one of those cold coffin frezzers!!)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 20:04:19 (ZULU)

'lito,

I'm going to try my hand at bedding my next rifle. There was an unusaul 2 posts on bedding today so far. One with great results (way to go Dean) and one with unexpected results. I'll likley be bedding either a Rem or a winch LA into a McMillan Prone stock. I Figured I'd just skim bed, as there will be no floorplate. Doesn't seem Pillars would be necessary, but I just don't know... Now I'm worried cause I'm NOT gonna cut apart a $550 stock.

I figure I'll rub in a paste release agent and then spray it with Brownells,, then set her down into the Brownells steel bed. Can't be too careful huh....

I'm undecided on the action length. I know the 284's fit better in a long action, but I've shot the fagmag in both long and short without a probelm. Only drawback to SA is that you have to remove the bolt to pull an unfired round and there's no mag feeding,,, but they'll be no mag feeding in prone comps anyway so seating out isn't an issue either. It's said that the short actions are stiffer and will help to bring the center of gravity more toward the rear of the rifle. I'm not sure how much that would matter,, as we're only talking like 1".

Still up in the air about caliber too,,, There's just too many damn options these days. If I was a fag, I'd shoot palma so I didn't have to make the hard choices, but my ass looks fat in pink ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 20:21:58 (ZULU)

Short action <m14nut@msn.com>
River Edge, NJ, United States - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 20:36:06 (ZULU)

Hello all, havent been to te site in a while and wanted to post this. I know the "sniper" issue in maryland is over and dont want to bring it up but i thought some of you might be interested in this.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200211/CUL20021105a.html talk to you all later.

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 21:07:01 (ZULU)

New 1,000 yard benchrest record. 1.473".

Click my name for the web page.

Hank <robahenry@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 21:11:59 (ZULU)

George,

I'm in for an SC riffle if the project goes through.

Moe,

You mentioned two 600 yard ranges in FL. I've shot at Okeechobee, where's the other one?

I voted. Everyone I know voted. The local news says there are 300 lawyers standing buy for possible post election legal challenges. I hope we don't get "Gored" again. The new voting machines are so simple, even a democrat can use them.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 21:13:06 (ZULU)

SC rifle:

Last weekend, Gardner told me that they now offer a tan finish in addition to OD & Black.

Tan finish with a desert cammo stock might look pretty snazzy. Just ideas.

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMO, MO, - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 21:18:29 (ZULU)

'Lito:

A rifle stuck like that would keep me awake at night. I've heard paste wax is s'posed to work as a release agent.....don't know how well it works.

Rosta Hawgs:

On trigger pull weight......is the accepted standard for field use about 3 pounds? That's what the Sharpshooter is currently set at, and I've got a Bushy carbine with a 7 pound trigger. Any advice for fixing that little beast would be appreciated.

Rifle raffle: Waiting....waiting....feeling lucky. Voting done.

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Country, MN, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 21:54:18 (ZULU)

'lito,

Real sorry to hear about your bedding experience. Got me scared now, 'cause I use the Brownells release spray also. What did yours have printed on the can? Mine says "T.F.E. Dry Lube & Mold Release". Never had any trouble YET! I noticed that Brownells also lists another spray release agent called "Acra-Release Spray". Could it be an incompatibility issue between your bedding material and release agent?

Inquiring gunsluts NEED to know! Please keep us informed.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 21:59:24 (ZULU)

Jerry S,

I have a Sharpshooter also. Came set @ 3 lbs. and feels great in all aspects, so I left it alone! I remember that Gooch once posted a little warning for those of us that might be tempted to go lighter than 3 lbs. trigger pull on a real sniper rifle, or an LE call-out rifle. Rick B. did the same! They both posted that your senses become 'numb' for a lack of a better term under the stress of combat, or as Sinister puts it 'the fog of war'. The consensus was that while triggers lighter than 3 lbs. may be great for punching paper, ringing steel, or Tactical competition, they have no place in a real-live life or death situation! That said, my Terry Cross M40A1 came set at a tad under 2 1/2 lbs, and I love it. No need for the Jewell when an M700 trigger assembly can be reworked like this one. Bear in mind that I'm not a sniper, and hopefully will never have to encounter the 'fog of war' with this stick. And I know that 'lito shoots about 2 oz. but not all of us can.

On your Bushy trigger, I would ask you what you intend to accomplish, and what your intentions are for your AR? If it's just to lighten up the weight a bit, JP Ent. makes a spring kit that will do just that (from Brownells). Otherwise, do you need a single or dual stage? Are you intending to get into Highpower and/or Service Rifle competition? Will you be shooting for small groups, varmint hunting, or building a SHTF battle rifle? There's lots of options, and not to brag, but I'm reasonably familiar with AR triggers. I own six AR's with various trigger systems for various uses!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 22:36:37 (ZULU)

SC rifle;

I agree with Gavan. It should be SC.HDR#001, sounds good to me. I'll be pleased with what ever is decided, though.

I vote for the .308WIN for caliber. Barrel should be 20-24 inches. I can camo it myself. Pre-bedded would be nice.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 22:38:12 (ZULU)

Greetings,

This long time lurker is hauling butt to Tucson AZ, pronto. If some locals could email me details and locations of outdoor shooting facilities or areas, and which ones are better, longer ranges, etc. I would appreciate it greatly. Thanks in advance.

Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Counting the days, Getting the hell out of, Kalifornistan - Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 22:52:18 (ZULU)

2.5 lb. was a standard for a long time.

Now, FBI won't let you in a class unless they are 3.5 and they weigh 'em at the door.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 00:03:01 (ZULU)

stevesix -

>>You mentioned two 600 yard ranges in FL. I've shot at Okeechobee, where's the other one?<<

The Palm Bay Rifle & Pistol Club in Palm Bay (Melbourne area, east coast).

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 00:10:16 (ZULU)

For the SC rifle barrel marking:

Roster Hog

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 00:18:05 (ZULU)

Gents,

Wierd day. Doctor gave me a clean bill of health and signed off on my paperwork so I can go back to work. YEAH!

With the day off, I checked on my .300 Win Mag project. It's glassed, tuned, and will be ready tomorrow. Looks great. Win 70 trigger breaks like glass at about 3 lbs. The stainless barrel, blued pre-64 M70, Badger mounts, and laminated stock look great. Pillar bedding was very nice. If this doesn't shoot I'll be greatly surprised.

Planned to do some long range shooting today, but the range was reserved for some Law Enforcement weenies. Hey, wait! I are one now. Probably, could have imposed, but will try week after next, as elk season will "interfear".

All in all things are going great on the job. They have an opening on the TERT team for a new sniper in about 4-6 months. May apply. Would love to get the billet and training at their expense!

Blacktail season was a bust. Yesterday, was my last hunting day and didn't get a buck. Darn. Today, stopped for coffee at the Howe Matriarch's place a three point buck strolled across the lawn. Talk about adding insult to injury!

The good news is that I found fresh elk sign in my hunting area and season opens next week! I'm ready. The .35 Whelan is sighted, pack built, and raingear ready. Still dryer than normal. Weather says it should be VERY wet by then. PERFECT elk hunting weather for our coast mountain range. I'm jazzed...

All for now. Our sniper championship is after the first of the year and I'd better start getting my ass ready.

My best to all, be safe.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 00:52:36 (ZULU)

Somebody else will be shooting mine George. The College money pit shelled the motor in her Dodge Dakota today. She's got my hunting pickup now so I guess. I'll be buying a new truck as starters. It ain't in the cards I guess.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 01:18:55 (ZULU)

Don Smith: Re scopes -

The Leupold Wind River is dam nice optics to be as in expensive as they are. It's water proof, clear optics, good field of view, and appears to be built pretty well. I think theyare water proof. Someone sanity check me on that one.

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, us of a - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 01:47:15 (ZULU)

Gooch, if you are still in the land of the Bremelo, there is a pub just up the road in Silverdale that specializes in micro-brews. It's right next to and on the same road as the waterfront park. Last time I was there (some time back) the owner had over 150 available.

Hmm, after years of lurking I finally found something to throw in...

For those on the bargain basement budget or are just looking for a learning tool (as I was) the Savage guns work well. Unless I have an exceptional example... my 110FP does .75 off the bench all day, and better when I'm on. I'm not sure I would notice better, actually, as my focus has moved to CBS from anywhere other than the bench.

The rifle is completely stock, did a few bits of adjusting/tuning myself with info from this website. The glass is Vari-X II tactical, the bottom end LE 3x9 in the same company's mount setup. All in it was just under $900 counting the Harris bipod. It probably won't run with the big boys, but neither can I. Shot it in a 600yd open gun competition for our Captain's Cup last year, made 175/200. Which I was very happy with being that the left arm was being pulled from the post-surgery sling to be placed in the rifle sling. (ouch..)

This gun and it's ammo are completely off the shelf, put together with a little bit of research beforehand. I guess what I'm trying to say is... if you're lurkin' and haven't got a stick, you're running out of excuses.

Darrin Newlander <aevarr@hotmail.com>
Lemoore, Ca, - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 02:19:43 (ZULU)

SC Rifle Update, 19 emails from interested hogs so-far. I am waiting from S.C. Council to give me the go. This could end up being pretty fun and interesting.

My Idea would be to get a complete list of interested hogs and then form a email list to openly discuss the finishing touches. Keep in mind to keep the cost down they all need to be exactly the same. making the rifle the same allows the manufactures to make them in less time saving money and giving them the ability to offer us a good deal.

Ill let you know when I hear from S.C. council.

George Out

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 03:12:25 (ZULU)

OK on the rifle deal. Man that 1450.00 is sweet. We all paint our rifles anyway and with a few hours into a bedding job you are good to go.

I feel I owe George and SC so much If George gets this I will throw in the first 20 Slip Cuff slings for free. Just to be the offical sling of the DR HOG RIFLE.

George wont count my rifle as one of the first twenty since I can get slings most of the time.

Pablito, I have had that happen a few times also. I'm back to paste wax. Takes longer to put on but has never let me down. Actions come right out.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 03:30:20 (ZULU)

Yeah, I'll definately do whatever it takes to afford one of these rifles now. We got that ass sucking chimp Blogo for Gov here in IL. Getting the free education just isn't worth it. Maybe I can do northern IN for a house and still stay with the unit. They get CCW, MG's and suppressors, wonder if they have any PD's hiring? S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 03:55:57 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter,

Thanks for the info on the Wind River scope. I read Sarge's scope comparision and know 'lito gave the WR a thumbs up. Was on e-Bay and Gunbroker and saw some of the Nikons at good prices, hence the question. Currently have a cheapo Bushnell that won't begin to cut it. Not even a good door stop.

What's up with the raffle? Thought it would start on 11/4.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 04:09:55 (ZULU)

George,

Email inbound. Count me in on the SC rifle. It's like a damn Tee-shirt; I just gotta have one!

Joe M. (lookit, a short post...:))

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 04:51:15 (ZULU)

Gentlemen, Thought I`d try out my new password tonight. I`ve been lurking about 3 years now and just wanted to say that I`m impressed and humbled by the info passed through this site. I`m not military or LE, so show distain for me if you must, but know that I hold what you guys do in the highest reguard and regret too late (41 yrs) that I didn`t make that choice. Been around firearms since age 7, reloaded my first round at age 10, and hunted since age 12. Al Gore recently piqued my interested in the gas gun M1A but have been perplexed by it`s mediocre performance with commercial ammo. The .13 cent 147 gr 1984 vintage Radway green out shoots the $1.00 a squeeze stuff by a wide margin. Thought it was me at first until I fired the mil ammo. Head space tag and measure is 1.6325. Noticed the commercial ammo seems slightly smaller in most all dimentions (.001-.003) and freebore is off the chart, could measure it with a ruler. I`m wondering what you think the more critical dimention is for accuracy, ie out of round, headspace, case dia., shoulder angle, freebore, etc. I don`t have my cartridge guage fine tuned yet but the commercial ammo headspace seems very cose to the chamber dimention. The lugs just close on the round with the bolt stripped. The mil. ammo is actually tight by about .001 so the lugs only engage about half way which I`ve heard is not good pressure-wise, but it shoots the best. I`ve noticed denting on the datum line upon chambering and was wondering how critical it is to performance. I know the velocity of chambering the round will deform it slightly but what kind of fit should I be looking for here? Commercial ammo shoots about 3" @ 100, 7" @300. NATO shoots 3/4" @ 100, 4" @300. Incidentally, the rifle is the loaded model bought three years ago w/4 1/2 lb trigger, NM front blade, 6x40 ranging scope, and shitty mount. Have added gas cylinder shim kit, Fulton Armory spring guide, and removed wood in barrel channel where contact was apparent. I haven`t bedded it yet because it`s a hobby rifle and is still new and tight, but maybe some day. Just looking to shoot through the same hole out to 300...that`s not tooo much to ask for is it? West Virginia is coming up fast and I only have time right now to measure instead of shoot. I have a feeling This could run into some press time and money to get some accurate hunting ammo. Whatcha think? Recomendations...

Steve Racer <mosseater@earthlink.net>
Dillsburg, PA, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 05:35:46 (ZULU)

Well, looks like it is a Republican controlled Senate and House! That bodes well for our common interest in shooting and our rights from a Federal perspective. Bush should now be able to get some good justices in to the Federal courts.

Here in CA though we have to endure another 4 long years of Mr Davis and his cohorts. Not a single Republican won a State level executive office election. I imagine that we will see CA passing all kinds of crazy laws, raising taxes(especially on the "rich"), growing government, and destroying rights. Maybe the state will self destruct on his watch. Either way - I am planning an exit strategy for 5 years or less - NV looks good from here - any other suggestions?

For you freedom lovers who are in anti-freedom states (are there any free states?) - check this out - www.freestateproject.org - it is the best most realistic plan I have seen yet for creating a free society in the US. Basically, the idea is to get 20,000 people to commit to being liberty activists and all move to a chosen state. Once there, the 20,000 people will, through activism, take over the State governement and establish a liberty oriented government. Of course the State would have to be one of the smaller states (less than 1.5 millon).

I joined and will follow through if the membership reaches the goal level of 20,000. At 5,000 the memebership will vote to select the state. Right now there are about 2,000 members.

LTChip
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 07:57:58 (ZULU)

DJ...

Mang, what short memories the Kalifornia folks have. I can't believe that they re-elected "Gray-out" Davis again, after the power fiasco last year... whatsamatta youze guys??

Glad to see Sen. Dashel get the boot as leader of the senate. This may be the end of his career, seeing as how he may be the one individual that is responsible for the loses in the Dem party this year.

His next election may see him go down for the count. Looks like Terry McAuliffe will probably get the boot also.

The funny thing is... under mormal political patterns, Gore should have won in 2000, and the Dems should have had a landslide this time. It is posible that the Democratic party has run out of issues, and is bankrupt... Gun Control? Welfare? Immigration? Abortion? Fogetaboutit... these issues are from the 70's and 80's. They are old hat, and dead.

I was also amazed that New York re-elected Cathy McCarthy... the Rep from Long Island. She got elected on a sympathy vote because her husband was killed by a shooter on a commuter train some years back. She has been totally ineffective in washington, and if you ever get a chance to hear her in an interview, you would be appauled at how ignorant one can be, and still be elected in NY... she has no idea of what's important, and just mouths sound bits about gun-control, and education... two topice that she has no knowledge about.

Anyway... we got it now... a whole truck full of judges just waiting on hold in the sidelines to be appointed, legislation that has been held back, will start to move.

It has been a good day for the good guys.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 10:05:26 (ZULU)

New email address. Test.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 10:18:19 (ZULU)

George......if you could see it in your heart to do a "left-hand" action and keep my barrel at 24"......I think this old Va. man had better get his name on the list for one of the SCHDR#... rifles !!!...heck, my serial number could be 001L....hehehe

What a task to undertake....many thanks !!!

Elections......glad to see Maryland voters to elect Erlich for Gov. .....anything had to be better than what you had, and the possibility of a Kennedy !!!

Chris.....keep in touch, I'm getting ready to contact Brian S.'s new smith here in Va. (Leo) about doing a 6.5/284 for me on a new lefthanded 700BDL action I just aquired......I've just gotta have one !!!!!

Paul SF Cockerham....contact me, I may have a deal for you !!!!

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 12:43:27 (ZULU)

George;

I'm in. E-mail incoming with my info.

Bolt;

You-n-me gonna do some biddness!!!! E-Mail incoming to you also N/A

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 12:44:41 (ZULU)

George G.

Do you want a deposit to offset the initial purchase of all the receivers/any other parts bought in qty? It could get expensive with the lead time on that many rifles. Say the word, and I'll fire.

Thanks again,

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 12:51:52 (ZULU)

stevesix -

>>You mentioned two 600 yard ranges in FL. I've shot at Okeechobee, where's the other one?<<

The Palm Bay Rifle & Pistol Club in Palm Bay (Melbourne area, east coast).

My Bad. Should be the Port Malabar Rifle & Pistol Club in Palm Bay.

DJ –

>>check this out - www.freestateproject.org - it is the best most realistic plan I have seen yet for creating a free society in the US. Basically, the idea is to get 20,000 people to commit to being liberty activists and all move to a chosen state. Once there, the 20,000 people will, through activism, take over the State governement and establish a liberty oriented government.<<

Actually, that’s the worst plan any gunowner could get into. Why should we forsake 49 other states? Well, maybe 48 states. Screw Kommifornia.

Remember playing “Cowboys and Indians” before it was politically incorrect? There was a mandatory section called “circle the wagons.” If all the gunowners move to one region, guess who’s gonna be circling the wagons? Righto! The gunowners!

Sorry, but I believe in the sanctity of the Constitution and the viability of the Republic. I won’t give in to become an island of freedom in a cesspool of shit. I refuse to give up the whole just to have a piece – which may be stomped into oblivion anyway.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 13:04:06 (ZULU)

George count me in for a fully tricked out SC rifle, do you want a deposit, email to follow

Fred Hartman

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 13:07:17 (ZULU)

DJ Nevada can use another shooter. We Just defeated the same sex marriage and the allowing of 3 oz of Pot per person agenda. Not as much sin city as they want you to believe.

Boulder City has a 1k range open 7 days a week. DEsert Sportmans the old range used for the SOF convention lets you shoot up to 600 yrd unless they have lengthen the range recently. It is open by membeship 7 days a week.

An area between Jean Nevada and Las Vegas is being used by the Cowboy action shooters on sundays the reast of the week it is open. No formal range but space for 1K pratice just bring a target stand and your stick. or there are miles of open desert. Take a portable target taget stand, water and shoot until your barrel turns red. There are some areas in Clark County that you should be careful of but for the most part drive off road and sent you booolitts down range.

Several areas where you could shoot 2k if you had a desire.

Nv allows you to have CCW's SMG or MG, Cans but not num-chucks (sp)

bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 13:31:51 (ZULU)

Dj almost forgot No State income tax, no personal property tax vehicle license plates are high but!!!!!!

Breakfest $1.19 three eggs bacon or sausgae, toast, hash browns

looking forward to being your neighbor

You can shoot 50 weeks a year. NO I'm not part of the Chamber just lived here for ove 20 years and wouldn't move.

PS if you move don't gamble save that for the tourists spend you money on your stick and buy millions of boolits

Bomac <biker3@earthlink.net>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 13:42:55 (ZULU)

WES: If you get the tac slot, it probably won't be too, too long and you will be TEACHING the training. Mark my words.

First one's on me if I'm wrong.

bks

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 13:44:36 (ZULU)

'Lito- I've been fortunate enough never to have needed the advice, but I was told by a very experienced dude that dropping the riffle into the freezer overnight should pop it loose. Then again, since the stuff stuck to the action, maybe it wouldn't! The only time we had something like this happen with a machined part, we cheated and used liquid nitrogen to chill the part and it did pop out. Engineer gave us a bunch of grief about "thermal shock" but didn't see any adverse effect on the life of the part.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 13:58:04 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Yep, last night was a good one. Especially here in MD. After 36 years of a crooked-one-party system, there's hope. It's great to see the "hand appointed" Demo fat cats in Annapolis now scrambling because they're unemployed. And they thought they were there for life....and I quote..."HA!!!"

There's still hope for NY though (I lived there for 7 years) as Rudy hasn't said he wouldn't run. As Newsweek guy said so eloquently this morning, "I think this is the official end of the Clinton-Gore era, they both stumped hard in Fl and other states and got STOMPED!"

Man, GOP takes House and Senate AND we's gittin' our own SC riffle WooooHooooo!!!!!

BTW, George

YOu got mail....again ;)

Later Fellers,

Rich

RichS. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal;mer, - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 14:02:12 (ZULU)

Alan: Thanks for the trigger advice. The Bushy is a 16" carbine and wears an Aimpoint Comp M. It will just play the role of the Homeland Defense Rifle or general homestead varmint control. I just think 7 lbs. is too heavy, so the JP springs from Brownell's sound like a good plan. Also I read on AR15.com that John Holliger at White Oak Precision tunes up Rock River two stage triggers and offers them at a competitive price. I haven't had a chance to check on them yet.

George: I would love to get in on the SC Hawg rifle, but it won't work for me right now.....not with two kids and Christmas around the corner.

Take care Hawgs......and thanks for voting.

Jerry S. <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Red River Country, MN, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 14:42:57 (ZULU)

Gents,

THE GOOD GUYS WON! Now that is the kind of morning to wake up to over morning coffee...

Since most of us are "conservative" I dare say this is indeed a good thing for us and our county. Agree, Clinton-Gore has been derailed. Don't forget about Hillary...she's the one that's scary. On the other hand Elizabeth Dole should defeat her. It would have to be a woman against woman race. For those who don't think women belong...remember Maggie Thatcher?

Holy smokes. My new .300 is almost done. We have a new SC "Offical" rifle in the mix. And it looks like I just found, and will trade into, an original, minty, XP-100. LIFE IS GOOD!

Goerge, Will have to see on the rifle. Would love to have one, but after being out of work for almost a year it would be tough. I could always sell off a subgun or other item. Let me know when the price "jells".

Brian, thanks for the kind words. I'll be happy to get the sniper spot. Have a lot of young bucks in competition. Starting my working out and practice. One thing is that I have never been a trained sniper...that may be against me. The former USMC sniper they were looking at quit. Over a woman! Wished I could have given him my "I've been married thrice come to god speech"! Was at the Academy when it happened.

All for now. Have to get ready for duty. LOVE IT!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 15:57:58 (ZULU)

Wonder if we can get Hostetler to draft a repeal amendment of a few bad laws. (all). Maybe offer him a commerative S/C rifle with his name on it. I'm gonna write my letter today.

Anybody heard from Dan (CDC)? I miss my news clippings with a touch of truth to them. CDC come in, bravo 23 out.

DJ,

I saw that same web site from a link on a gun site somewhere. If they could get 20 million they'd be better off. Damn near win any election they wanted. I think I'll just move to Arizona when I retire.

The M1A just shot a loose 3/4" group with slap together handloads and chattering teeth. I like it. Thanks again, Bill!

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 16:00:07 (ZULU)

Gotta name to etch on the SC rifle barrel:

...deleted... I'll keep my twisted ideas to meself

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 16:00:28 (ZULU)

SC Rifle:

What about getting the receiver engraved? I'd like to shoot mine, and I don't want to lose the special markings when it's rebarreled.

-mike

Michael Roberts <robertsmj@missouri.edu>
MidMo, MO, - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 16:15:35 (ZULU)

Guys,

Thanks for the NV encouragement. I live pretty close to Carson City so over the next couple years I'll be checking out the areas around there for a suitable place to build a home and horse ranch.

Moe,

The way I understand it, the FSP is not about "Giving up the whole". It is about getting a foothold and proving that freedom can be achieved and is the greatest good over socialism and the tyranny that comes with it. It doesn't espouse to get all freedom lovers or gun owners to move to a single State. Only 20,000 - a very small number! So, the "circle the wagons" analogy doesn't apply. There are millions upon millions of freedom lovers spread throughout the entire 50 States. This small project to take over and liberate a single one of our smallest states would serve as an inspiration to these folks to do the same all across the country.

This is meant to be a first step to influence other states to follow the lead and abolish gun and drug laws, taxes, public utilities, eminent domain, privacy intrusions, and other tyrannical laws that impose upon the freedom of the individual. It would be a case study - akin to the CCW Shall Issue states that Mr. Lott studied to prove that an armed society is a safer one. This state would be an example of how liberty can work where a government only functions to protect against and prosecute perpetrators of fraud and force.

Nothing would stop these 20,000 people or anyone else from continuing to work for freedom in other states and on the federal level.

That's how I see it anyway.

LTChip
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 16:25:02 (ZULU)

JR,

Can you give me a brief explanation of "cold hammer forged" as it applies to barrels? Example SSG Pll or similar. I've got a mental picture of a guy, very cold, with a hammer, also very cold, beating on square bar trying to make it round. That ain't right, hell I ain't right. If it's to long or a stupid question just say so.

Thanks,

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 16:26:35 (ZULU)

Well it looks like we have a new GUN grabbing governor. Rendell(democrat). He has taken a vow to make law abiding people criminals overnight. He says, "Never in all my years have I seen a need for the average person to own a handgun." Wow what a nut. And to think I gave my country 11 years to fight against this. It blows my mind that this huge hunting state elected in a gun grabber......God help us all....

A. <littleistpup@hotmail.com>
Latrobe, P.A., U.S. - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 16:30:36 (ZULU)

Got a pistol question -

I mostly shoot and carry 1911s and am looking to get a new full size pistol in 9mm for IDPA type shooting. I don't want a plastic gun or a double action - spoiled by that 1911 trigger.

Am considering a Browning or FN Highpower or the SAO version of the CZ 75B. Right now I am leaning towards the CZ due to cost and all the good things I have heard about it. What else should I consider? Are there any 9mm versions of the 1911 or conversions? What do you think about the CZ anyone have experience with them?

LTChip
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 16:34:32 (ZULU)

Hi, newbie here. I've been watching the elections, as I see everyone else has. Well, it looks like the Dems have the AZ governorship, although it is "too close to call" at this point. There is still hope, but at least the GOP has the "triple crown".

On a side note, I have a Remington 700 ADL Synthetic. I'd like to do a few things to it, but after reading through the tips section, I realized that most things would be out of my monetary range. So what would be a good start for me?

Thanks

Andrew

Andrew <andrewt@email.arizona.edu>
Tucson, AZ, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 16:51:33 (ZULU)

Cold hamma foge,

Barrels start out at about 1/2 the length of finished barrel length. barrels have hole in them. Mandrel with rifling form is placed in the drilled hole. Barrel is placed in hamma foge machine. Hamma foge spins the barrel at 400Rpm(I think) and then beaten from the outside with 'hammers', think its like an 100 ton press, until the inside of the barrel compresses to the form of the mandrel, couple thousand poundings. Compresses is the wrong word, metal is non compressible. It has to flow in length to compensate for the volume taken up by the mandrel, so that is how you get a long barrel from a short nub. I think there is another cold hammer forge process which pushes the barrel over the mandrel while being beaten to death. These machines are for huge factories only, as they are very, very 'spensive. Takes a couple hundred thousand barrels per year to pay for the suckers. I just want to hear one at work.

I have officially confused myself..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 17:11:22 (ZULU)

JR. No you can't name it the Nordic Bitch, but it is catchy!

Andrew; float that barrel, bed that Lug, Seat that bullet just short enough to go in the magazine. Get the Lito's instructions and adjust that trigga And shoot that sucka. Your probably getting 2.5". You will probably do 1 moa when you get it all done. Total cost about $10.00. And Welcome to the shootin place in Sniper Country. Glad to have you new guys aboard.

DJ, there's nothing wrong with a Hi Power or that CJ either. Jas don't go again a gunfighter with a Glock and you'll be ancient before your Grandkids know it. (that's a local joke). Sorry.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 17:11:49 (ZULU)

Oh yes,

"humph humph, Ladies and Gentlemen the Honorable ex Senator Mondale has left the building. Mr. Mondale, please show Tom to his seat in the back of the hall please!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 17:15:07 (ZULU)

Brogers

Knew I'd git a riz outta someone for my aversion to plastic pistols. I DO NOT want to start that debate again :)

Just found out that Springfield Armory makes a couple of 9mm 1911 versions. AND - they are on the CA list of "approved for sale"guns. Hooray for me.

Will check them out 'cause I am a 1911 bigot.

LTChip
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 17:22:05 (ZULU)

Steve Racer,

Bed that M1A, whaddya waitin' for? It'll make those other expensive parts worth the money you've already spent...Now, let's have a few laughs on yer name! Speed Racer? Heard that one yet? Or your email--Mosseater@; now that's a Moose if I ever heard one--Bullwinkle! Man, you are a cartoon no matter how I look at it! LOL. Now, don't get all huffy or nuthin', you gotsa expect these things with a name like that. And unless you were homeschooled, you had to have heard it all before! And welcome aboard. Sell your M1A and get one of George's SC riffles!!!!

On the election. I already knew there was a God. Nicole introduced me to him some six months ago! But I didn't realize that God despised Daschle too! Wow, miracle in my eyes. I have a really low opinion of your average voter's mental capacity. This was a surprise, beyond my wildest hopes. Again...wow. Time to re-write some tax law!!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 17:27:53 (ZULU)

DJ,

Colt did make 1911's in 9mm. A buddy has one, he's really good with a handgun and says this one shoots "OK".

Jerry S,

RRA DCM two-stage trigger is probably second to the best factory trigger that's out there. Holliger only makes it better. Remember that his mods are for DCM/CMP comp use, and in my mind there's always a trade off between strict comp use and reliability, say in an entry carbine or an HDR. BTW - the best factory two-stage IMHO is the Knight's @ about $300 un-tuned;-)

My advice to you would be to try the JP kit @$10 and about a half hour of your time, to see if it suits ya, before spending a bunch more money!

Bill Moore,

you'll have e-mail soon!

John,

I've heard from Dan, just to say 'bye. Couldn't talk him into staying around:-( He and I have had our go-arounds, but I'm still gonna miss him! Hope he'll someday change his mind.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 18:11:34 (ZULU)

WES: Don't sell yourself short. You ain't at war. You ain't gonna be charging no machine guns with a bayonet. Too much gung ho, hooyah, hooah will get you sued and cause you to make poor decisions in our business. Wisdom carries the day. Let them younguns run around in circles.

We got two Marines here on our Team. Neither was a Sniper in the Corps. One of them is one of my Snipers. Both are great shots nevertheless. However, we also got Marines and a Marine Sniper (who can't shoot a pistol for shit) that can't make the Team after numerous attempts. Not what we need. Too gung ho. Can't let go of boot camp. GUUUUUUUUUMP ! YES, DRILL SERGEANT !!!!!!

Ya'll hear that ... that's Melendy chambering a round and cussing me under his breath. Fixin' to Eagle, Globe and Anchor my ass .... AND PULL OFF MY FUCKING MAGGOT HEAD AND SHIT IN MY FUCKING MAGGOT SKULL, YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TRUTH ?, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH !

he hee. I digress.

No offense Ken M. Last thing in the world a MARINE needs is some peace keeping COP trying to keep the peace when all you want to do is GET SOME ! Hey, I'm with ya. We usually want to "get some" too most of the time. We just have to keep it in check and not violate any law or anybodys civil rights when we do it.

Different game. Different mind set.

Average age on Houston PD SWAT is right at 40. Average age on my Team is about 35. Those are upper NCO/Officer ages in the military.

Wes, you will probably never have to run three miles in 18 minutes in your LE career.

But, you may very well have to run two or three city blocks or up a few flights of stairs and make a decision and a shot when you get there. Both had better be right on. Acceptable losses are not acceptable. Make sense ?

I'll take the older, wiser, maybe a little slower guy every time.

By the way, some of those older, slower guys ain't so slow.

Semper Fi

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 18:31:48 (ZULU)

Alan,

I'll bet ya right now Dan is back and posting in less than 2 months... This place is like a TB,, once it's in ya,, it's in ya for good.

FatBoy...

George Gardner,

Count me in on the SC riffle. I tried to send an e-mail this morning but it wouldn't go. I'm going to try again.

Moe,

Thanks for the range info. I'm going to check into the range, hopping it might be easier than Okeechobee (travel wise).

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 18:42:08 (ZULU)

Joe, I was gunna bring up "Speed Racer. We got enough Steve's..

Speed Racer, Just shot my M1A NM today 42.7 grs Varget 175 MK Three shots touching at 200.. Bed that puppy...

My Sprigfield scope tacks the above load perfectly out to 500.. I remounted it and windage was way off (One complete turn) but elevaton was still on. Only off 4/3 MOA.. Even though they said they only adjusted the parallax me thinks they changed something in te windage turret as well, since it now no longer moves when firing..

I see you all voted. What happened in PA? You guys let me down in the Gov race.. If you have a pro gun house and senate, he can't do too much harm just get rid of him when you can. I know most demos here in Texas are progun.. So you can not go by party alone.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
SA, Texas, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 18:48:58 (ZULU)

Predictions:

1. Reports of "homeless people in the streets" will begin increasing. Not that the numbers of these idigents will, just the mention of them by the press. Remember how they all of a sudden disappeared under Clinton?

2. The evil rich are going to benefit from every damn measure considered. For the record, Al Gore lists me as "rich." Hahaha. The news will expand class warfare rhetoric.

3. Crime rates will magically rise. Not that Brian or my wife will be any busier--just the printed articles will focus on "more crimes." Of course, any crime stopped by a citizen with a lawful use of a firearm will not be used to make this point...

4. We will be bombarded with notices of failure. Failed to get Bin Laudin', failed to ask permission from the UN, failed to prevent the next Terr attack, you get the picture. It will be inceasent white noise until next time.

5. Only this time, things positive will happen, and the doubters will see the obvious bias. They will have better conditions, and the rhetoric from the left will be seen as "noise." And the media's bias will be exposed quite well

6. Gun control has just shifted to your backyard. It has become a local initiative. Stay alert, local ordnance and state law can sneak up on us. The anti's will find this "strategery" lucrative, so we gotta be alert.

Couldn't resist. I'm in way too good a mood. Yiiiiiha.

George,

Thanks for that info. I understand the pricipal now...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 19:02:32 (ZULU)

Chris,

I agree with you on the barrel idea. Hope he's up to it. Bet his ears are gonna ring for 2 weeks after hammerin that many barrels out.:))

JR,

That makes sense now, thanks. No heat involved, other than induced from the pounding they get. Are they really any better? A matter of opinion?

Alan,

Sorry to hear that about Dan. Gonna miss the updates.

John

John <acehigh@insightbb.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 19:30:36 (ZULU)

Chris,

I think that you're probably right! A lot of school pressure doesn't help either.

SC Rifle,

I probably won't be buying one, unless I recieve an unexpected windfall. So many rifles, so little money. Besides, I already have a Terry Cross M40A1 .308/Obermeyer combo, so I just can't justify the duplication right now. FWIW - and maybe you buyers will just disregard this - but I think that Chris has made a very strong point for the use of one of JR's Border Barrels. If my vote/opinion counts, I'd go with JR. And I'm familiar with his work, as some may not be. I've had a Winchester Classic Sharpshooter in .300WM with one of JR's 10X barrels from when he was with H-S Precision, for about three years. It was shipped with a test target of well under .5" and people don't even believe what it does after break-in and load work. Also, cleans with about three patches using Shooters Choice! Am I happy with it? You bet! Just my .02, I suppose that the final decision should rest with those that are laying down the $.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 19:45:01 (ZULU)

John,

<<Are they any better?

Better?!!? oooh, boy... No, ain't better

Alan,

youse gotta clean the thing? mang, sorry I let ya down ;)

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 19:54:48 (ZULU)

John,

maybe not heat, but what the hammers are inducing is stress. If you take a hammer to the side of the barrel, you are displacing the steel in one way which is going to move the barrel the other way, right? If the volume of the bore is taken up by the mandrel, then the direction the steel will move longitudinally. Well, works good for production processes, cuz it's faster, cheaper on material costs, but nein gut for metallurgical purposes necessarily. By pounding the outside to form the inside, you do create a 'skin' on the bore surface which is harder than was to begin with, a sort of 'work hardening', and hey they will last forever, but they leave an undesirable surface finish, you see 'railroad tracks', or a lot of rings on the bore surface. which means pits and valleys and whatnot. If the bore surface is clean, which so many have graciously extended their expertise on the fact that hamma foge bores are shiny, it is because they have been honed to death, and secondly, they AIN'T shiny, hand me the borescope. But back to my main point, these barrels are highly stressed out. You lose any temperament in the barrel when the vibes don't vibe like they should, and that's what stress brings into the picture. The metal has been known to come apart, ya find little flakes in your cleaning patch, find out later it was a piece of the bore that just 'gave up'. The throat looks like alligator skin. Plus, their tolerances are horrendous because they are made to specs to make sure when the rifle goes 'bang' a bullet comes out of the muzzle. Production tolerance. They aren't considered accurate by any means, try and find a paper puncher with a hammered barrel. If they were accurate, we'd all be using 'em, cuz they run about 20 bucks per barrel (Remy). Dare I ask if anyone rebarrels with hammered barrels? It's a fast way to make a barrel, and that's it, not the best way, just a way to spit 'em out in a hurry..

Oh, and I don't hammer barrels, eh.. Wasn't sure if your above post was leaning towards that, just clearing that up..

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 20:28:40 (ZULU)

Hate to be a poopy head, but I would have to clean 100 reels or sell 15 rods to be able to make the buy on the SC special riffle. Business is rotten now due to dry lakes through October and bad weather at the beach. Nobody is tearing stuff up. Bread and butter job at the hospital pays the bills, pays for kid's weddings, and loans the kids money. Rods and reels buy the toys.

Gonna be pushing it to buy riffle raffle tickets and get my shooting coat and glove.

Sad, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 21:03:16 (ZULU)

Steve R...

The guys have named you "Speed Racer"... you have no say in it, just accept it and get on with the getting on!

The .221 is now OK... rebedded, trigger done, and I got 500 cases today.

A Republican house and senate, and a new stick... life is good!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 21:42:41 (ZULU)

Re hammer forged barrels

Aren't the barrels on the FN SPR hammer forged and chrome lined to boot? Not saying they can hold a candle to one of yours, or a Rock or several others, but they are reputed to be pretty accurate for a factory production barrel. Does maybe the chrome lining process tighten things up somewhat?

Curious minds want to know, especially cause I've always been told that chrome lined bores are more inacurrate than non lined, i.e. AR15 types.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 21:48:53 (ZULU)

Guys, 27 interested hogs and counting.

George

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <a10xrifle@aol.com>
KC, MO, USA - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 22:21:30 (ZULU)

All I say on that is there are companies which offer both chrome lined and not chrome lined barrels, and there is a disclaimer with the chrome lined, which basically states they won't guarantee nuthin. Oly arms I think is one of those companies.. I've always quietly thought Chrome lining was someones way of hiding something hideous in the bore.. polishin a turd.. they aren't known for consistency in dimensions.

Accurate in what sense? I'm a bad judge of that, I'm the wrong dude to determine accuracy of factory rifles.. It's either capable of -1/2 MOA @ 100 yds, surgical precision, or it's used for table legs.. Everything applies to the accuracy required for the situation.. FN looks like a solid platform, but I bet there's a few of us who would tear that thing down and put it back together the way the god's intended.. But that could just be me, like comparing VCR quality to DVD..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 22:37:47 (ZULU)

>>I know most demos here in Texas are progun.. So you can not go by party alone.<<

Hell, most democraps in Texas were listed with a rating of "A" by the NRA. Not all... but I'd say the majority. They learned a hard lesson not too many years ago. The very first ad run by Sanchez (dem. governor candidate)I recall, was that he TOTALLY supported the rights of sportsmen. Not gun owners... sportsmen. He got his ass kicked last night...and handed to him too ;)))

Steve,

What's this I hear that the same lady that lost her parents in the Luby shooting at Kileen (now NRA representative), is now pushing for Vermont style open and/or conceal carry in Texas? Heard anything about that? Wished I could remember her name. She championed the CCW in Texas.

Watched ABC World News Tonight while ago. Baba Wawa interviewed Al Gore and asked the prevailing question, "WTF happened last night!" BWAHAHAHHAHAHA..... Answer: The Klinton/Bore legacy just died.

Just bought a NIB Win. HBV 308, s/s barrel, pre-Stealth riffle...and now George is going to offer a special SC edition? Boy, that's timing for ya. Well, maybe later.

BTW, thanks ALAN.

MK4

MK4 <sharps45@msn.com>
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 23:11:55 (ZULU)

MK4,

HBV,, sweet ass stick. Don't do nuttin' to it and you'll get your money as fast as you put it up. I've seen a few of these HBV's and they are better than the Stealths. The tooling, fit and fininsh are better to my untrained eye,, and my buddies outshoots mine every time. Given the choice between the Stealth and the HBV,, I'd get the HBV.

Nick G also shoots one,, I've seen it push 150gr SMK's to 3000fps and group 3/4 moa at 500 with them. It shot flatter than my 6.5x284 to 600yards.

FatBoy...

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