Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

Chris, some people use the 284 Win for long range. John Holliger uses one on an XP-100 based rifle. You're going to be burning right about 56-58gns of slow powder(4831,4350'ish) for about 2800fps(168) from a 26" barrel, at least that's what the books are saying. The 280Rem burns about the same, for similar velocities. The AI gets you about 4-5gns more powder(and a more manly pressure spec because of the pussification of the 280 due to the Rem autoloaders it was chambered for) for right about 2950 from a 26" tube, again so the books say. I'll let you know when I get the rifle up and running. The 7WSM burns almost 70gn of slow powder(4831,H1000) for over 3000fps from a 26" barrel(book). That's at it's short(2.800) OAL, you should be able to get more at a longer length. My 7mm Rem Mag currently uses 71.5gn of H1000 for 3050fps from a 26" barrel. FWIW. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 01:05:37 (ZULU)

I also have dealt with Patrick Stanley, and he is the man to deal with regarding RRA items.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 01:38:43 (ZULU)

KenM,

This helps. Here is how I tried to rationalize this to myself. I take the 308win with a 175gr to 2725fps using 45gr Varget, 26" tube. 46gr will get the 168SMK 30 cal to almost 2800fps, 26" tube. So, seeing as the 7mm 168 is the same weight as the 30, and can be pushed with the same 46gr Varget, I should be able to attain 2800fps. Now, I get a slightly larger case, the 284win, and put some slower powder in there (maybe H4350 or N150 range) and I should be able to push that same pill to 2950fps or there abouts. Would these powders be too fast? I wonder how the pressure would be with about 53 to 54gr of H4350.

After looking through the Sierra manual, and checking the Hodgedons site it seems that no one wants to publish any figures allowing the 168, or almost any other size pill for that matter, faster than 2700fps BUT,,, these figures came from 22" barrels. A 26" tube should be able to get close to 2900fps, a 30" er maybe 2950+. Now I'm trying to convince myself again... Pretty soon I'll be back to 260's and 7-08's....

I'm eagerly awaiting your results with the 280AI. I'd love to go try and test a 7WSM and report back to the DR. My main reason for holding out is that there's no established match chambers and I'm a recoil sensetive bitch and have no idea what to expect. I figure it'll be about like a 30-06 if I go with a 16lbs rifle.

Oh,, some guys trying the 6.5WSM wildcat are reporting 650 rounds a barrel. I can see JR smilin' from here.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , I've also learned that you'll be able to shoot 20 shats,,, er,, shots,, at 500, 600 and 1000 yards at the AEDC on Nov 24th ands DEC 15th,, drop me a mail for more info. , - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 01:53:01 (ZULU)

Durand

I had a set of 1" Leupold throw lever mounts on my 700 PSS before I changed to Bagers. They worked ok, and seamed to return fairly closely. With mine you needed pliers and a leather pad to turn the levers. I would trust this mount & ring combination.

Andrew

Years ago I bought a new 670 Winchester in 225. As best I can remember it is the same action as a standard post 64 Winchester Model 70 with cheap wood, and a spartan metal finish. Kinda like a Model 27 Smith & Wesson compaired to a Model 28 Highway Patrol. This should be a good start on a new project. Enjoy

CMounty <roachw@fidnet.com>
Houston, MO, U.S.of A. - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 03:36:13 (ZULU)

Chris, I think you just might squeeze 2900 from a 30" tube with the 284Win and you'll want to go slower than Varget or N150, try N160,N165, H4350 and RL19 and 22. I'd suggest H4831 too, only the SC version as the long stick is a cast iron PITA to meter. Those numbers on the Hodgdon's site are at an OAL of 2.905 for the 284/160gn loads, so you're not going to get much improvement on them with long seating. There are loads in the printed new edition Hodgdons book for the 168's.

When you go from a larger diameter bullet to smaller on the same case, drop the charge because the pressure will go up due to bearing surface(308 to 7-08). I like N160 for the 7-08, seems to act just a touch faster than IMR4350. You might be able to just shade 2800fps with the 7-08 in a 30" tube and 168's, but you'd be pushing really hard IME. My father runs molyed 162gn A-max's from a 28inch Kreiger at 2680fps for his 1K rifle with N140. I've been trying to get him to go to N160, but he's shooting high 190's needing only 28.5 MOA to get to 1K from 200yd zero, so why switch?

IMO, the 7-08 is a good choice. I'm going with the 280AI because I want to be different and the rifle was already set up for a 06 length round and I'm willing to give up the barrel life for the extra 150fps or so. I was thinking long and hard about the 6.5-284, but I don't like rebated rims and the smith had a 7mm barrel sitting in the shop waiting to go, along with a 2 stage Jewel trigger. How could I say no? S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 04:03:27 (ZULU)

this is my first time to post but a long time lurker.with regards to the gas the russions used to subdue the theater crowd was probably xenon gas.its the perfect stealth anesthetic.its colorless,odorless,and extremely fast acting.they're telling everyone its fentynl which would be very hard to aerolosize and the terrs. would have plenty of time to know they were being gassed thus they'd have plenty of time to hit their detonators.xenon is the only anasthetic agent that is odorless and colorless and can be vaporized.the problem with using most anesthetic gas agents in room is there is no control over the amount every person receives ie. people who are next to the ventilation ducts would get a much larger dose.also, theres no antidote for gas other than to ventilate the affected person with o2.just my thoughts on this issue...

mark

mark <exfn1@aol.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 04:14:37 (ZULU)

mark

mark <exfn1@aol.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 04:17:44 (ZULU)

Ty,

Just go and get ya a Ford Powerstroke...then ya get used to the smell. Or, use dawn soap on a wet cloth, scrub the hell out of it then take a blow dryer to the wet spot (not THAT one)...then dump some of that febreeze stuff over it and let the sun do the rest. Here today, gone tomorrow.

Gents,

The local college dorms set up a trick or treat. Indoors, up and down halls and stairs. These kids do some things worth mentioning--and this was one. Lot's of candy, and Nicole was just beaming the whole time. She got in an hour on foot, and an hour in my arms. Filled the bucket with candy twice. When college kids aren't holding peace rallies in support of the PLO, they can get some things right. There is hope for 'em...Nicole is still wearing her Pooh-suit, sound asleep with candy wrappers all over the place. The pneumonia is simmering, not bad, not clearing up. I just moved my leave time from "hunt" to nurse duty. By the time I go back to work, she should be clear.

The really good news is the diagnosis came just as she finished the intensive chemo phase. She'll fight the infections without the chemo making it worse for a week or two. There's always a bright side, eh?

On the 284--seen a few sticks of late chambered for it. May be making that comeback after all.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 05:03:11 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just reading the posts...holy shit, folks are actually posting about shooting...!

Chris, Ken, and all. I have been a fan of the .284 Winch for some time. It got a bad rap because of the Winch 88 and 100 that it was chambered in...limited to 2.800" AOL. My mex mouser is a medium action so I can seat the bullets out, not lose anything, and pick up the powder space. This in a 20" Krieger barrel. Velocities remain to be seen.

I still stump for the 6.5 over the 7MM for target use. Actually, it comes down to the man and the rifle. The rest is personal preference.

Hell, give the .280 AI a go and the .284 Winch. Both are great cartridges. My brother in law had a Remington Mountain rifle in .280 we opened up to the .280 AI. Incredible performer. The rifle, NOT my brother in law...;-)

On a personal note, I've been pulled off duty for 4-6 days. Seems my equilibrium went and they can't have me falling down on the job. Will give me time to work on several projects I've been wanting to complete. Will have to see what the meds do...

There IS a god! Still, I feel like I'm leaving the rest of the team hanging. Will have to make I up to them somehow...NO DONUT JOKES!

All for now. Good to see we are back to reality and discussing shooting again. GET OUT AND VOTE! Done mine by mail already...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 05:37:09 (ZULU)

Ty, go to your local oil jobber or petroleum distributor and get some odorless Naptha/Mineral Spirits. It is really odorless unlike solvents of old. Just blot at the spot with the solvent and scrub. Then get it into the sun or heat if you can and you should be alright.

P.S. Buy a Cummins and you won't have to smell it at all!!!

Stock question;

We have an A-Bolt for a back-up for the team. One of the guys was training with it and broke the front sling stud out along with a big chunk of the synthetic. Can I just resin the chunk back in and then wrap fiberglass cloth around it or am I screwed? Only needs to support the bi-pod, and the gun is mostly used just for training so perfection is not a necessity.

Joe;

Just know that you are in our thoughts. My wife just finished a year's worth of chemo and several surgeries for breast cancer. She is 28 and chemo nearly killed her. She is a poster child for Murphy's Law. If it could happen to her, it did.

I can't even imagine what Nicole is experiencing. I don't know if it will help but if you need to talk to a partner of a survivor hit me off-line and I'll get you my phone number. It's good 24/7 and sometimes it's nice to talk to someone who's been there.

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 08:01:53 (ZULU)

Rich and Joe,

Tell the wife and daughters, to keep the faith, we need 'em. Sometimes I'd be loathe to admit it,(16 yr.old daughter)but I do need mine.

Rich,

My neighbor is a 5yr. survivor/veteran of the same protocol as your wife. It does work.

George is gonna build me a GI gas gun. Supposedly has a pile of GI parts laying around. I've decided on Armscorp (sp?) for the receiver. Any comments? It's just for HD and plinkin. I can't stand match pressure, I spend way to much.

Wes,

Hope they (docs) figure it out and get ya back soon.

John

Edited for content

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 10:02:53 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Here's a bit of trivia I didn't know. This close to 11/11 I thought it appropriate.

Some people have been a bit offended that Lee Marvin is buried in a grave alongside 3 and 4 star generals at Arlington National Cemetery. His marker gives his name, rank (Pvt.) and service (USMC). Nothing else. Here's a guy who was only a famous movie star who served his time, why the heck does he rate burial with these guys? Well, following is the amazing answer. I always liked Lee Marvin, but did not know the extent of his Corps experiences. In a time when many Hollywood stars served their country in the armed forces, often in rear-eschelon posts where they were carefully protected only to be trotted out to perform for the cameras in war bond promotions. Lee Marvin was a genuine hero. He won the Navy Cross at Iwo Jima. There is only one higher Naval award, The Medal Of Honor. If that is

a surprising comment on the true character of the man, he credits his

sergeant with an even greater show of bravery.

> Dialog from the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson: guest was Lee Marvin.

> Johnny said, "Lee, I'll bet a lot of people are unaware that you were a Marine in the initial landing at Iwo Jima... and that during the course of that action you earned the Navy Cross and were severely wounded." "Yeah, yeah.... I got square in the ass and they gave me the Cross for securing a hot spot about half way up Suribachi... bad thing about getting shot up on a mountain is guys gettin' shot up hauling you down. But Johnny, at Iwo I served under the bravest man I ever knew.... We both got the Cross the same day, but what he did for his Cross made mine look cheap in comparison. The dumb bastard actually stood up on Red Beach and directed his troops to move forward and get the hell off the beach. That Sergeant and I have been lifelong friends. When they brought me off Suribachi, we passed the Sergeant and he lit a smoke and passed it to me lying on my belly on the litter and said, "Where'd they get you Lee?" "Well Bob... if you make it home before me, tell Mom to sell the outhouse! Johnny, I'm not lying.... Sergeant Keeshan was the bravest man I ever knew... Bob Keeshan... You and the world knows him as Captain Kangaroo."

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 11:05:37 (ZULU)

Anybody have experience with U. S. Optics scopes? The only good things I hear about them come from the mainstream gun magazines which find everything good and from people trying to sell used ones. My personnal experience with an SN10 U.S. Optics produced for ArmaLite was not good (elevation quit working (no movement) after 120 rounds)and everything I've heard from industry sources I trust is not good.

How reliable are the Leupold 3.5 - 10 x 40 M3s and the illuminated versions of the same?

Marc Palmer <thems@att.net>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 11:06:45 (ZULU)

Marc,

US Optics have a pretty good rep from most of what I've read on the roster. Pricey yeah, but YGWYPF. My M3's have been very reliable. With a fair amount of abuse.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 11:16:04 (ZULU)

Ref: Dial 911

George Phillips of Meridian Mississippi was going up to

bed when his wife told him that he'd left the light on

in the garden shed, which she could

see

from the bedroom window. George opened the back door

to go turn off the

light but saw that there were people in the shed

stealing things. He phoned

the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?" and

he said no.

Then they said that all patrols were busy, and that he

should

simply lock his door and an officer would be along

when available.

George said "Okay," hung up, counted to 30, and phoned

the police again. Hello. I just called you a few seconds

ago because there were

people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about

them now cause I've

just shot them all." Then he hung up.

Within five minutes three police cars, an Armed

Response unit, and an

ambulance showed up at the Phillips residence. Of

course, the police caught

the burglars red-handed. One of the policemen said to

George: "I thought

you said that you'd shot them!"

George said, "I thought you said there was nobody

available!" (True Story)

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:10:05 (ZULU)

Kevin,

In Indiana that would be the SP. :)))

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:22:49 (ZULU)

Andrew...

670 is the same action...

Joe M...

>"Nicole is still wearing her Pooh-suit, sound asleep with candy wrappers all over the place."<

Man, don't they just steal your heart every time...

You will remember this vision until you die.

We parents are truly blessed.

Mark P...

U.S. Optics? Not so good. The glass is very good, but it's the company that's the problem. They often get the orders wrong, and people have gotten scopes with the craziest problems... mil dots that weren't in mils (or anything else), and other "stupid" problems. They have a careless attitude towards the customers, and are absolutly awful with customer service.

I spoke to one of their dealers at a match last year, and he said the same thing "All the bad things you have heard about UOS are true"!... and he has been trying to get USO to clean up their act, but they don't care.

A very good friend worked with them for almost a year, and couldn't get USO to get it right. The biggest problem there is the owner, who's ego (that is big enough to need a dump truck to carry it around) is making all the engineering directions.

They are also 2 to 3 times as much money as they need to be, because they have no sense of production order. Everything is made when they need it, they haven't heard of the production line yet, so you pay for their inefficiency. When the scopes don't work, it is always "Somebody elses's fault"... they outsource stuff, and then whine about it.

If you get one that is good, AND what you want, they are good scopes, but still outragiously expensive.

I hear that they were going to sue me last year... HA! They haven't lived until they've tried to sue me and Ruggus Rattus.

Now I expect some rattling, rusty ol' Gnome in a blond ghilli suit to come out of the wood work, and beat up on me... ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:23:34 (ZULU)

Pete,Undude,Kevin,JohnL,'lito and several others,

You have mail. A forward from a retired officer I met in the business.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:35:48 (ZULU)

Sorry this is kinda' long. Urban myths? or Truth?

Anyone remember this?? It was 1987!

At a lecture the other day they were playing an old news video of Lt. Col. Oliver North testifying at the Iran-Contra hearings during the Reagan Administration. There was Ollie in front of God and country getting the third degree, but what he said was stunning! He was being drilled by a senator;

"Did you not recently spend close To $60,000 for a home security system?"

Ollie replied, "Yes, I did, Sir."

The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the audience, "Isn't that just a little excessive?"

"No, sir," continued Ollie.

"No? And why not?" the senator asked.

"Because the lives of my family and I were threatened, sir."

"Threatened? By whom?" the senator questioned.

"By a terrorist, sir" Ollie answered.

"Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?"

"His name is Osama bin Laden, sir" Ollie replied.

At this point the senator tried to repeat the

name, but couldn't pronounce it, which most people back then probably couldn't. A couple of people laughed at the attempt. Then the senator

continued.

"Why are you so afraid of this man?" the senator

asked.

"Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive

that I know of" Ollie answered.

"And what do you recommend we do about him?" asked the senator.

"Well, sir, if it was up to me, I would recommend that an assassin team be formed to eliminate him and his men from the face

of the earth."

The senator disagreed with this approach, and that was all that was shown of the clip.

By the way, that senator was Al Gore

ALSO: Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called "political prisoners". However, the Israelis would

not release any with blood on their hands. The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released. Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists

were first identified. It was censored in the US from all later reports.

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:58:41 (ZULU)

the captain kangeroo story was great, so i looked for more and found this, for what it is worth, says it is fiction

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/keeshan.htm

i still like the story, we need heros and the captian is a childrens advocate and hero

Fred

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:59:37 (ZULU)

i hate to be a killjoy cause i really like the colonel(have his autograghed pic)but it is also an embellished tale, he did mention a terrorist by name though http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/ollienorth-osama.htm

Fred

Fred Hartman <beartooth46@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 13:08:24 (ZULU)

This must be the morning for Internet rumor stories. Wes; as much as I enjoy the turn of content, you know this isn't a shooting site by the way. SNIPER COUNTY? or so it says. :). Just messin with you. Been there on that inner ear problem. It's bad news. Hope it gets better but it takes a while. Sometimes I have to go to Hydrogen Peroxide in the brown bottles in my ears to get it back off. That's a no-no the doctors say. They say it will ruin your hearing. Huh!

I'm sure it will but I hear good at 60 something and it's only been a 30 year treatment cycle for me. I guess I'm the exception.

Lito'; and Gnome IBGS; I seldom laugh outloud for more than 5 minutes on these posts but... Go get him Gnome! He's your's, you want Mustard or Ketchup on your Catshooter Burger?

Oh by the way, The Ollie North story is listed at the same site referenced above as fraudulent. There was an exchange about the burgular alarm system but I don't remember anything about Ben Laudin being discussed. Ollie is one of the good guys but he operates in the fog at times too. He once said that the people of western Kansas were the greatest current threat to Democracy (I guess he forgot about Bin Lauden). He had just been fed that BS from our Governor who was thinking she had militia activity in this part of the state. There is no western Kansas Militia but there were successionists here because of the state enacting laws that changed the allocation of education tax dollars to favor the Urban eastern schools with money from oil rich counties in the west. The Governor was getting reports of Black Helicopters from this area which spooked her into thinking there was Militia activity going on. It was in fact found to be elements of the DEA and her own National Guard helicopters that she sent to check on the Militia activity.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 13:30:48 (ZULU)

Uhh Oh: NOW I have to say this, Ive been called on it already, There is a Kansas Militia, it operates mainly in the eastern and central area of the state. There were at one times elements of the Posse Comatus out here and in south eastern Colorado, But little remains of any of it since 911. The Kansas Militia is beneign as far as I can tell as far as a threat to democracy. How did I get into this anyway, I was sitting back waiting to see the Gnome show!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 14:08:04 (ZULU)

I'm crushed! I thought the Kang was a war hero...shat! Anyway,

'lito, what was the tabasco mildot scope, early on, that was worth a sh crap? I think I found 6 of 'em.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 14:16:24 (ZULU)

John,

What does George say about the Armscorp? I seem to remember that there were some bad things said about it several years ago (bolt raceway angles or something?) but I have no firsthand knowledge, and don't want to unintentionally slam a perfectly good product. I'd leave it up to George if it was me -

Wes, Donuts? Donuts and coffee? Cops around here laugh at that. You'll find them hangin' around at the Bagel shop sippin' their latte's! ;-)

'yote bait,

Colorado Possee Comatatus got pretty much wiped out by the IRS some years ago. Tried to use the old argument about the income tax being unconstitutional so a bunch of them quit filing. Nothing happened for a long time until they started bragging about it and the Sunday Denver Post gave the story a first page second section feature.

IRS came down hard, they always try to make an example of the squeaky wheels. I knew a member of the Possee that lost his home, his business, and everything else that he owned. Lived down in Cortez.*0-(

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 16:54:05 (ZULU)

Alan; your probably right about the Posse. They were seductive to some of the Farmers in the American Agriculture Movement and several joined. It(Posse) was or seemed to me to be racially motivated as well, very big on blaming everything on Jewish Bankers and eventually gave us the UN conspiracy theories. The confusion of the UN theories and the fact that the Clinton Administration tried to use the UN treaties to grab the Militia of America's weapons. "thats you and me guys!" These things gave the true meaning of the militia a bad name. Well..... you know, like a beltway drive by shooter Muslem sympathizer with capitalistic tendencies is doing to the "Sniper Cult". I don't know if one organization faded into the other or died a natural death after the wounded knee incident in S.Dak. I notice in a little SE Colorado farm town there is still a meeting hall that was the meeting place of the AAM. It still sports a new coat of paint every so often. The CRP program seems to have quieted the unrest for a while at least. Just a little Americana Culture & History for the morning. Oh this is a gun site, so let me say that the standard Armament was a Mini 14, 1000 rounds and .45 1911 Colt for the soldiers of that movement. There were survival rations and other requirements or so I was told. (I'm just a journalist folks, don't fire on the reporters!).

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 17:17:30 (ZULU)

Question:

I am ordering a Stealth .223, Loopy 4.5-14-40 w/mdots.

I was planing on using MK4 rings and base but I see that the base for the Win. are 2pc.

I don't need a tapered base but am I better of with the Badger base or is the 2pc. base ok.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 17:40:57 (ZULU)

Alan,

The Armscorp was his suggestion, unless I just absolutely had to have a Springfield for historical significance or some other reason. I may have misinterpreted what he was saying, but the new springfield rifles off the shelf weren't discussed very long. That's how we got on the headspace issue, being very looonngg. He suggested it and I know very little about 'em, he's gonna build it from scratch. I figured I couldn't go wrong. I do remember what you're talkin about but at the time it didn't mean much to me cause I wasn't lookin for one. One track mind?? :))

I also talked at length w/Terry @ KMW as well. Since he didn't do gas guns as a rule, he kinda steered me to a precision decision. He's a great guy to bounce ideas off of. Always has time to talk.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 19:07:05 (ZULU)

Hey Fellers,

Gots a custom riffle question. So I decided that if'n I'ma gonna have one built (.308 "tactical" style), I'll try to acquire all the components seperately over time to ease the 'ol bank account. Now, I figger I'll try to get a 700 BDL (that's the one I want right? not the ADL?)short action that's in good shape at a gunshow this weekend (and possibly have it clipslotted by John at tacticalstocks.com). As far as the other components go, any advice or comments on the following choices?......

Recoil lug...Badger?

Barrel....Rock, Hart, or Lothar Walther???? I don't want to spend too much on the barrel (under $400), but I want a good one.

Stock...McMillan (of course) A3 (with USMC sniper fill) unless they introduce an A5 as proposed on snipershide.com (highly unlikely).

Bottom metal...Badger

Rings and Mounts...Badger

Scope...LR M3.

Swivels...Wichita

Sling...TI

Do these sound like good choices? Am I missing anything? My biggest question is about what Barrel make and (not to stir the pot, but here goes) twist? I'd be shooting 175's. What about barrel length? I'm thinking 24" or 26", however the "Rock" seems to do OK with a 22" tube. I know about George's reputation and Jerry Rice's (I also imagine they are waaay busy too). Does anyone have any experience with John Baier (sp?) at tactical stocks or Jeff (Celt) Hicks?

I have some time here to work with, so there's no rush, but I want to make sure I get the best components I can afford and the best guy to put it together too.

Thanks,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 19:31:24 (ZULU)

Rich,

11.25" twist rate or faster for the 175's. Ain't gonna name any barrelmakers for you, ahem, but use one that these dude's on SC trust, Krieger makes a good barrel... If it's for tac use, go with the 24" bbl, it's got the poop to get you to 800yds, 24 is a good choice..

hope this helps

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 19:48:24 (ZULU)

Rich S.,

If you're going with Badger bottom metal, don't waste you're cash on a BDL action. The ADL is the same thing less the bottom metal and if you find an older one the bolt with be jewelled just like the BDL's. You can save maybe $50 by going ADL.

Barrel. I'd go with whatever the smith recommends. And keeping a barrel under $400 should be WAY easy. The Border that JR is gonna drill for me is gonna run me $285, and that's a 30" Stainless mutha with a custom taper.

Also, if you're getting the Wichita swivels you may want to order your stock now. I think some of the models are running about 2 months behind. Not bad,, but something you may want to discuss with Kelly if you're ordering direct.

Rich Johnson,

Regarding the stud on the A bolt.... Why not have a $12 champions choice rail installed in the forearms and put one of the uncle mikes swivel adaptors in. Should cost you less tha $50 when it'sa ll said and done and you'll have some versatility that you'd otherwise not have.

FatBoy...

Hey you old Chubasouris Kitty, If I did not love you I would hide your sand box.

On the Armalite scope made for them by US Optics. Thats was a piece of crap and it was never supposed to be associated with US Optics. It was low bid one off and was only supposed to have Armalites name on it. My source tells me Armalie paid just over 200.00 each for that scope and specd all the parts. It is not what US Optiocs sells unders its name. My source told me US Optics wished they never agreed to it but USO was a ne business at the time and f'd up by agreeing to it. I think of that scope as USO's naked pictures, all the famous ones seem to get caught with years latter. Bad decision.

On the current production scope. I have a bunch ad they are very good. What Litto says about price, of the varibles is correct. They should be less to compete. The fixed scopes are right with a MK4 in price and better glass. The varible are about three times that of a Premier Gen Two LR Tactical and that will keep them off a bunch of rifles, no matter what.

The one complaint about USO is the customer service. It ranges from great to piss poor depending on who has dealt with them. I have beaten them up over that issue and some things have been done to improve. Time will tell if its fixed.

One things they do is develop new products, Something that the big companies wait so long to do.

Undude with well oiuled knees. Gnome? Should kick the Kitty.LOL

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 19:54:08 (ZULU)

JR and Chris and all,

Thanks for the poop. I didn't realize the diff between the BDL and the ADL. Saving money is good!! JR, if you want you can email me some recommendations(so as to not name names etc. on a forum).I figured about the 11.25 twist (or a 1:10....I know 'Lito highly recommends 'em), I was thinking about getting one (Rock 5R) from John at Tactical stocks, I know he had em on sale but I don't know if he still has them or not. I'm looking at a time scale of a year MINIMUM here, so waiting a while isn't too much of a concern for me. I know of most of the barrel makers mentioned here, I just don't know the real differences in styles (5R, conventional, etc) materials etc. Thanks guys and keep the ideas and info coming PLEASE.

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 20:06:31 (ZULU)

Guys,

Just got word that Mike Barber of McMillan stocks was killed in a skydiving accident in CA. while performing a stunt for an upcoming Bruce Willis film.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 20:23:13 (ZULU)

Ref: .22 Rimfire

Could any of you fine gentlemen provide the BC for a 40 grain lead round nose @1,250 fps. Feel free to contribute too 'lito.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Sprngs, New York, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 20:51:05 (ZULU)

Rich,

Chris(tubby, hey Lee told me all about ya, hahh) gave ya the dollar or pound,whatever sign...Custom ain't cheap, the c in custom comes from c-note.. Who would I recommend besides Border,, hmmmm, not Lothar Walther for sure, bastards, mmm, hart eehhh maybe....No I'd never recommend the buttoneers, against my principle. harumphh...yer on yer own..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 21:14:24 (ZULU)

Aye Rich,

If you want to figure out the dimensions, blah blahhh, email me...I'll want to know exactly what you are shooting at what range at fps, blah blah blah, and I'll tell you who can get you there.. right?

laater

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 21:29:53 (ZULU)

Aye Rich,

laater

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 21:29:55 (ZULU)

Anything worth saying is worth repeating ;))

FatBoy...

Andy's Dad (Ref: .22 Rimfire).

The info you may be looking for is in the middle of this page:

http://www.tnssa.org/mpdrift.htm

Plus a bunch more data you may be interested in.

Later,

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 22:32:38 (ZULU)

Michael L

If you are an experienced Highpower shooter go with one of the guns you listed. If not get a fill in the blank Bushmaster, Armalite, Colt etc. Have a free float tube installed by a good gunsmith and buy 4 or 5 cases of Blackhills 75 gr. match bullets. Join your local State Rifle Association and practice whenever possible. The above combination will get you an NRA Expert card and/or points towards a Distinguished badge. Otherwise you will be rebarreling your custom rifle before you are in that class. Just my .02 standard warnings apply.

Jerry

Jerry <gcm522@aol.com>
Baltimore, MD, USA - Friday, November 1, 2002, at 23:25:09 (ZULU)

Brian, that's sad news and my prayers go out to his family and his friends at McMillan for thier loss.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Friday, November 1, 2002, at 23:44:32 (ZULU)

Looking for a gunsmith that would be willing to build me a rifle using my Winchester 670 in .30-06 carbine. Looks like Winchester 70 and 670 are different enough that I could not use HS-Precion drop in stock. I'm not a gun expert so I'm not sure what's the difference. Anyhow, I have this 670 just laying around and would like to make it into a decent gun.

Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
PA, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:19:56 (ZULU)

Gents,

Since I'm "hors de combat" for the next few days it's given me the time and chance to play with my gear. First, on the list is setting up my Tactical pack/load bearing gear and figuring just what I need. Mind you, I'm not looking at a full call out, so I just need a load that will get me 3-5 days in the hills with no real special tactical needs. Probably 40-50 rounds ammo, tops. Rain gear, sleep gear, repair/cleaning items. Any suggested items would be helpful.

Am trying to keep the pack weight down. Thinking about 35 pounds max plus my rifle...

You know, "travel light, freeze at night".

Brian, sorry to hear about Mike Barber. Didn't know him personally, but if he is McMillan "family" the loss will be felt. ANOTHER good reason I have never jumped out of perfectly good aircraft.

Broke out my insulated Danner Acadias today, polished and ready to go...seems we went from summer, about 3 weeks of fall, and winter has set in...temp this morn was 24 degrees. Not cold, but definetely "crisp".

Trail guns: Seems the subject has come up locally with some compadres. I use magnum revolvers for hiking. Both 4" guns, a S&W M57 .41 mag. and a Colt Anaconda .44 mag. BOTH superb guns that will stop most any critters we could run into...two and four legged varieties.

Occasionally, my stainless Commander goes along, too. Somehow the idea of hiking/packing and revolvers just go together...Comments?

If you haven't looked at them give Tactical Tools equipment a good look see. I'm building on their "three day assault pack plus" and like it very well. Have to figure how to attach my Luppie 25x to the upper and use the lower as a field expedient rest for my rifle. I'm thinking a cammo case and nylon/velcro straps. Again, any suggestions?

Rich, Lots of great barrel makers out there. George G. likes Rock, I personally use Obermeyer, Hart, and Kreiger. Plenty to chose from. For $400. you should get whatever you want. Since this is a piecemeal project A number of makers offer installation on your action. I can vouch for Hart and Kreigers talents...again, plenty of choices. Take your time, ask questions, shoot other rifles and use what works, NOT what is just hype. Budget one of Bruce Robinson's Mil-Dot Masters, as well. Just started playing with mine, again, and like the idea of not carrying laser or other range finding equipment. Lightens the load.

Will close for now. I'm rambling and not saying much...

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:40:38 (ZULU)

Ahhhhh, the joys of breathing 40 degree compressed air for 45 minutes and sweating my arse off in level A again. The new MSA air packs are way kewl. Completed my OSHA Hazmat Tech today. Wasn't quite as involved as NFPA 472 but it was a drain on the brain to recall all that stuff that I had forgotten. Last time I took the course was 94, my how things have changed. Now I have WMD Operations Level, WMD Incident Command, OSHA Hospital Decontamination Operations Level, Decontamination Instructor, SORT Tech Level and OSHA Tech Level. Next is OSHA Incident Command. Would really like to take the full NFPA 472 course sometime. Why in the heck does a 48 year old bald headed, jelly bellied old fart want to keep this torture up?????

If you guys in LEO or Fire need some quality instructors, email me and I'll give you the contacts at EnviroSafe. These guys know thier hockey and all instructors have at least 900 hours training and response experience. They also do advanced arson forensics and investigation classes.

Had spooks here last night. Skayed me really bad, just now getting over it. Course a 90 pound black sniper mutt hiding in the corner of the yard was funny too.

Wes,

If I can get to it, I'll print you out a half dozen or so my of "if the aliens invade" gear lists. You can choose one from carum A, one from carum B, etc. Don't forget the layering concept! Travel light and freeze yo ass off at night dudeski. We ain't young as we used to be. Need to get some young college coed to carry your gear. Or, call Lito's sister!

Boltster out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:50:49 (ZULU)

Wes,

Yep, already got the mil-dot master. Won it in the first raffle here. Won another one in the second raffle, but since I already had one, I forfeited it and let some other lucky sap get it. Great tool though.

Thanks for the poop on the equipment.

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:57:36 (ZULU)

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 00:57:47 (ZULU)

Sir Wesley...

Premier reticles had a bunch of really neat ALICE cases for the 25x Lupita spotters... have alice clips and all... they might have a few left, give them a call.

John...

Found 6 Tabascos... where? I didn't think you was a "Bin diver"! ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 01:07:02 (ZULU)

Andrew; we get in a rut around here but honestly I believe I'd just trade the 670 and get a stealth or something. I know it's tempting but I'm afraid you'd put more into it than you'd ever get back. OR

Glass bed the lug and free float the barrel. I don't know for sure but the 670 would probably let you use Lito's trigger adjustments found elsewhere on this site. Sand down the stock and hand rub some good oil finish inside and out. Check the crown with a magnifiying lens and if it doesn't look perfect. Ream it just a few thousandths with a cone shaped dremmel too. Get some good weaver bases and some B-Square or old fashioned weaver style rings. But first check all the phases of your safety and be sure there's a safety when there's supposed to be. Tighten the screws front and back and adjust the middle screw (I think it has one). You've got about 25 bucks in it now. IF it doesn't shoot put the bullets as far out as the magazine will allow even if you have factory, begin by pushing them in (loosens the factory crimp) and then knock them out and reseat the proper depth. Likely you'll have that decent gun. And you can use the other 600 to buy you a good scope. IF you want tactical get a M-3 but for general purposes... get you 4.5X14X40 Leupold Tactical Mil dot version. This gun should shoot 2 MOA when you start or I'd can it and get another rifle. (right after you do the dremmel tool crown).

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 02:09:25 (ZULU)

Catshooter, Boltster, and all,

Interesting, would like to see your "when the aliens invade" lists. This, of course, indicates that your have at least SIX different "kits" ready to go at any one time. Survivalist folks must just love you. 'Betcha got some of them "scent blocking surplus suits". You know, the activated charcoal ones that are no longer good, but cost 30 bucks and leave you covered with charcoal...or haven't you broken yours out yet?

Will give Premier a call on the canvas covers for the Luppie. Wifey could jin one up, too.

Yeah, I'm 51 and getting up there, but still not ready to pack it in yet. Lighter is starting to feel better, however...

Discussed the idea with "she who must be obeyed", that I either needed a nordic track to get in shape or a Nordic Bitch as a bearer and auxilliary heat source in our cold weather. You can guess how that suggestion was met;-(

Do have a half hispanic/half german LE counterpart that would work...hmmm. Naw, I like my testicles where they are...

Just added "make ghillie suit" to the list. This ought to keep me going this winter.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 02:44:34 (ZULU)

Rich, I was the lucky sap you let have the mildot master, so I will now return the favor. If'n you are going for a "tactical" rig, look at Howa. Mine is wearing a 20" bbl, and it has all the oomph needed to get out to 1k yds. 168 gr. Sierra HPBTM in front of 46 gr Varget in Winchester cases with standard Winchester primers are clocking 2660 outta that little short tube. It's gotta heckuva long throat, you can't seat the bullets out far enuff to touch the lands and have any in the case neck; just go with the same OAL as the Federal Gold Match and it'll do wonders. Mine prints one hole groups at 100, and Ive been known to get 1.7" groups at 500. I know, it sounds like BS, but I've got witnesses....like Dirty Steve. And, the best part is, I've only got $620 invested in the whole thing. Unless you count the Stoney point target knobs and the bubble level thingie, still, it's under $700. Inexpensive and accurate is way better that expensive and accurate, any day.

Anyway, that's my two ruble worth.

Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, TX, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 03:35:07 (ZULU)

Wes,

Did Google search for Tactical Tools. Only found an outfit in WA state that makes Kydex holsters, etc. No packs, etc. on the web site. You have an URL maybe?

My son just bought a Lightfighter RAID pack (made by Eagle for Lightfighter). Looks like has the makings of a good 3 day pack. OD in color, pocket for Camelback, zips open, compression straps, sternum strap and covered with MOLLE loops. Think he only paid about $160 for it.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@knology.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 03:35:14 (ZULU)

Wes,

A few days ago you said something about the surge in the yote population having an effect on the deer pop. I am not sure where in Oregon you are but I'm in extream NE cali not very far from the Oregon border and yotes are a big problem, the deer population is in the toilet. I have been doing my best to fix this problem but to many dogs, not enough time. All this work helping mother nature is making me want to go out and hug a tree...

Bob

Robert H <medicboy@excite.com>
NE , California, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 04:15:51 (ZULU)

Gents,

I went through this scope search thing this spring. US Optics versus Nightforce. Ended up getting another Loopy M3 LR. US Optics fell by the wayside in price and customer service dings; nightforce is on my short list for another project (22x sounds cool until the mirage comes up). So, for the .308...another loopy. This summarizes about two weeks worth of thread, BTW. The bottom line: get quality, get what you need, and spend what you want. The M3 was perfect for where it went.

Nicole is doing good...a bit of a rattle in the lungs, but energy to spare! I'm thinking we got on it early enough not to be a factor--but caution is the best way to err.

There's a Gun show in Barron County--any of you Wisconsinites headin' up there? Me and the boy will be shopping an action for a 6.5 project up that way. The wife has her sights on the JC penny sale--so I got to beat her to the checkbook. Now there's a challenge!!

Rich,

My mother beat that cancer 12 years ago. Been healthy ever since. I agree that modern treatments have come along way--and they work. We will pray your wife finds this to be true as the years go by.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 04:35:35 (ZULU)

Fatboy;

Enlighten me on the Champions Choice Rail thingy. This sounds like a real good fix for what I need!

Thanks

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 05:34:16 (ZULU)

Anybody have experience with the "MALICE" clip system that Tactical Tailor is using?

Looking at their modular leg rig. Be nice to be able to get mission specific pouches for the same rig instead of several different rigs to keep track of.

Thanks

Rich <rjohnson@cityofclovis.org>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 05:39:03 (ZULU)

Gents,

Need to correct an ealier error...

Rich, the "three day assault pack plus" is from Tactical Tailor NOT Tactical Tools. Just do a search and they'll pop right up.

Bob, the coyote thing has me worried. Recent reports on the elk population around Yellowstone show it's in the toilet since the re-introduction of the wolf. They are now up to 300 wolves and expect that to grow to 600 in a year or two. Protected animals that eat 25 elk per yer, per animal. Another example of man screwing with mother nature and not having the sense to allow mom nature to correct herself.

Me? I'm going coyote hunting ofter big game season.

All the best,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 06:33:56 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad,

I have a great ballistics program to figure your BC. You said 40 grains at 1250 fps. What is the length of the bullet?

Guys,

Been lurking for awhile. Hate to see some of you at each other's throats. Glad to see you're all still here, though.

I ran out of Winnie Stealths. Pretty hard to find in .308 now. I am working on it.

Finally got my last project straightened out. Sub MOA's now.

Take care,

Echo

sniperecho <sniperecho@yahoo.com>
In, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 07:12:08 (ZULU)

'lito,

You got mail, N/A.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 13:16:39 (ZULU)

Rich,

Regarding that project rifle, suggest Williams Firearms Companys one piece bottom metal. Very high quality for about $250 thru Brownell's. As for barrels, I like the state of Wisconsin's barrels (Krieger, Obermeyer, Rock). Had Jack Krieger put together my tactical stick (Win. M70) and am very happy with it.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 13:28:16 (ZULU)

Hey. How about a class project? Lets come up with a SC Special Rifle. We elect voting members and they select the builder and components and market it somehow...

Is this a possibility?

I go on the road tommorrow. I'll be spotty on here and emails for about a month. Bremerton, San Diego then Yokosuka. I'll keep ya'll posted.

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
Click on my name to visit the leader in tactical marksmanship training - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 14:15:09 (ZULU)

TIME FOR A RIFFLE RAFFLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

On tactical backpacks......

Tactical Tailor makes quality stuff. Blackhawk, London Bridge, Kifaru, Eagle, etc. also make quality stuff. On packs, the best thing to do is set your size (dimensional or cubic inches) and price maximum, and then search for the configuration/pouches and color that you want. You are going to pay a lot for any of the name brand stuff because it is "special".

Military packs....

If you take a good look at the modifications available, the medium ALICE is not bad also. New type frame pads, kidney pads and shoulder straps are actually comfortable.

Civilian hunting packs.....

Do not rule out civilian packs in hunting camo colors and configurations. Cabela's sells a several quality packs. Some folks poopoo non-official 'tactical' or hunting stuff. I currently have black and a woodland el cheapo packs that I got off EBAY that have never had a problem with. If you find a pack that has a decent zipper(preferably no zippers) good fastex buckles, but may not be the quality material you want, buy it and simply re-inforce the weak points.

Civie backpacking packs....

You can search EBAY and get some quality deals on Gregory, Northface, etc. Quality civie packs are light and strong. They are politically correct. You can get a camo cover to put on them when you enter the woods.

Malice clips......

Best dadgum things I have ever used. Costly but great. I have tried paracord, alice clips and cable ties. I am currently changing all of my gear setups to malice clips.

Wes....

I am an confessed gear whore. I never bitch at Doughlady for accessorizing LOL. I buy STUFF, try it out, add/subtract, cut it up, re-sew it and sometimes just throw it away or re-sell it. Actually I am up to seven specific weapons/hunting/DMAT kits now, working on two more. Damn shame the aliens probably will not invade but messing with the STUFF is a hoot.

I use the layer concept; stuff that you need attached to your belt or in your pockets for pure survival/defense based on the environment that you expect to be up to your ass in alligators in, load bearing gear tailored to the weapon system or mission, 72 hour day/assault packs which simply extend the load bearing gear, 7 day bug out gear that extends the day pack.

I don't believe in the charcoal or any scent blocking suits, period. The MOPP suits are barely good for BioChem use, much less to fool a deer that has nostrils that can smell a fart a mile away. I chuckle at the scent suppressive hunting suits and cover scents. First time the folks exhale a breath, they are screwed. Any animal that can smell on a molecular level, ain't going to be fooled that easy.

On ghillie suits.......

Way fun to build! Don't get sucked into an expensive kit. Improvise adapt and you can find the stuff for next to nothing. Master Bowcher has good ghillie info! DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT ALLOW A DOG NEAR YOUR BURLAP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Will increase the cost of your ghillie by about a thousand bucks!!!!!!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 14:20:31 (ZULU)

Rich,

The Champions Choice rail is $12.00 for a 14" Rail, plus about $5 shipping (615)793-4066 or 1-800-345-7179. It;s an american rail, but I think they said both european and americal assessories will fit. You'll have to ask them. The rail stud can be had at http://www.uws.com/HARRISBIPODS/HomePage.html for $8.40 plus like $5 ship. Now you pay someone local or inlet the space for the rail yourself and use a small bit of marine tex or JB's or Acraglas or whatever,,, and glass it into the stock. Cut the screws off and make sure the barrel channel is clear. You can inlets so the forearm cap is kept intact or run it the full length of the forearm. Anyway, my inlet and install cost me $25. So, $17 + $13.40 + $25 = $55,, worst case. If you got the time to inlet and bed it in yourself,, $30.

FatBoy...

Reading this business about the packs it just donned on me that the probably the best thing we ever did is close the archives. A lot of stuff happens between rehashes and keeps us from turning off new people by tellin em to read archives that are 6 years long.:)

The ice fallin off my 120' comm tower is about to wreck my roof this morning. I was out by the 400 early this morning and it's deadly out there. This is gonna be a rough winter on the plains or I miss my guess.

I was approached by a Wyo. Rancher about killin wolves early on this year. He said they could kill em on their own land but had to leave one breeding pair. (who thought that one up?) . But anyway he sounded pretty desperate but it's 400 miles up there and what he wanted would take camping up there all winter I guessed. We painted ourselves in the the corner on a Microwave project and I didn't really have a way to get away. He hasn't called me for a while so something may have happened, but it does look like Mother Nature is foolin with em up there.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 15:05:06 (ZULU)

Another thought; Perhaps we should publish some more articles on basic tactical rifles scopes, rifles, barrels, binoculars, range finders, bedding methods, spotting scopes, packs, hydration systems, bullets, cases, boresighting devices, mounts & rings, triggers, adjustment of triggers,drag bags, bipods & caliber's for tactical rifles that meet the "general consensus" (is that an oxymoron?) here. I like Gooch's idea of a SC rifle, we might start there and see if anybodys still here when we get through trying to agree on that one. I'm really livin dangerous here but how bout anyone submitting an article on each subject and having this "dubiously honored board" try to agree on which information becomes a part of the final works to be posted as an article we subscribe too. Realizing all the while that we already have some hard as a rock information in there already. Just for thought! BUT.... it might be that the very fact we seldom reach consensus on anything is the best cause of the wide range of information we have here. Who knows?

P.S. There probably should be no cat receipes in there now really!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 15:23:46 (ZULU)

Wes, On trail guns.. 4" model 29 with 250 grain Keith SWC over 20 grains of 2400.. clocks 1250 out of my 6" barrel. Should handle anything needing kilt... Oh I wouldn't dare make donut jokes. Cause here in Texas we ate Tacos not donuts!!

I got my scope back from Springfeild. I wrote them that the windage turret turns while firing the rifle. They sent it back saying they adjusted the parallax. Now how is adjusting the paralax gunna stop the windage turret from turning while shooting? Gunna take it to the range and shoot it and send the target back with the scope so they can see it is a windage change and nothing more. I was really PO'ed when I read what they did and totally diregarded the information in the letter I sent..

Dirty Steve, Out..

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 15:29:52 (ZULU)

Its taken me all afternoon to catch up on this weeks posts.

Dirty Steve, all you 'mericans are immigrants, ( unles your a native) The US has always been a multicultural society, with sub cultures from many different nations, be it Irish, Italian, English, German whatever, the difference bieng that they where American first. Many (by no means all) of the immigrants these days( in what ever country the emigrate to) have no interest in fitting in, learning the language, appreciating the culture or abiding by the laws of the land. The ones that do are ok by me ( I'm one of them)the rest can go back where they came. The worst thing that could happen to Western Europe was the dismantling of the iron curtain, it kept a lot of crap out.

Jon, gottch, copy than on the lenses, i'll contact the manufacturer, thanks bud'

The shooting community of the United States of America, need to unite and stand as one, be they long range, short range, palma, cowboy action, pistol, hunter, what ever. Jon Beardsleys wise words of warning regarding the situation in the UK sould be heeded by everyone.

JR, Yep callum fergison is WAAAYYY expensive, but like Mercedes Benz, he sells on his reputation and always find people willing to pay, me i'll take the Volkswagen any day. He is probably Europes best custom rifle smith though.

GW, me no sleepy.. i work all day (and night at times) and stay awake all night too, well, truth be know, i cat nap, i have an ability to make my self semi conseouse, i sort of sleep, but i catch whats going on around me, just wish there was some pig activity to catch, 20.00 hrs last night to 07.30 this morning i was in the woods, it pissed down with rain and i saw my old friend the fox, (with the large white tip on his tail) the one that has stayed alive , by me thinking, "If I shoot him, i'll spoil my pig chances"well, he survived again, and i saw no pig, The pigs have so much food to choose from in the woods right now, the storms have dropped crab apples and acorns all over the place, and mushrooms are abundant, they don't need to go near my piggie bait, i'm giving it a rest until it gets frosty and the ground is hard and the pigs are hungry, maybe then i will be able to see to stalk them at night, right now there is still to much foliage.

Chris, you got your better half interested in the shooting then eh? its time i got my email back home up and running, and she can tell Anke exactly how cool shooting is, mine doesn't liuke the noise? ah well, she is at a boxing tournament ( no she ain't in the ring,) with her mate tonight, then they are off dancing, I'm driving up there after work and meeting em at the disco, i't will have been a long 2 days by the time i get to bed. Say hi to yours from mine will ya.

Don Smith, damn trophy hunters, does taste better than bucks !! exactly what would it cost me to get to Alabama from Germany, and how much are 200 doe tags?

Marco, the pardy is on Saturday !!! you got the date wrong, so you need to carry on direction fatherland after the gun show ! and bring yer sleeping bag(s).

Joe Mahon, good for you buddy, hunting is top..

Chase, I heared that the guy held on the tarmac t the airport was for furs or animal skins or some citties (sp) shit, dunno if thats right..

Charles S Hunt, I'll dig out what i can on Liosenfeld for ya, i don't think much to em, but i know some who do, they are one or the lesser known, cheaper makes or german/ european scopes. no web site, and hard to find info on, not very popular here.

Wes. 35 wheelan sound good to me,

JR, like lito and the others said, Brownells ARE CHEAPER , tell your pop he should visit you in that wonderfull country where you now reside.

I see the Ruskies killed two "germans"in Chechenien,both fighting for the reb's, one was a turk with a German pass ( guess the ruskies don't like kebabs) and the other was same but ? moroccan? Couple of big firms bieng investigated here for supplying certain terrorist harbouring countries with technologie, these terr's must love the germans. well thats all thats new from Germanistan this week, Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
germanistan - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 16:13:04 (ZULU)

On Tactical Tailor stuff,

I bought several their items from U.S.Tactical Supply,

http://www.ustacticalsupply.com/

Great outfit, I always got good service from them. As for products, I had Tactical Tailors's Super Strap and Super Belt, which replaced straps and kidney pad from ALICE pack. They are much more comfortable than the original. As for MALICE clips, I had them but havn't had the chance to use them yet. But the clips are very well built. The thing that I like most is their Tac-Sling, very sturdy and easy to use.

I don't have any experience with their 3-day pack, but I remembered on DR long time again someone said that the zipper could open if the pack is top heavy? I maybe wrong so don't quote on it.

Jessie

Jessie Chang <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, 98155 - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 16:51:24 (ZULU)

Peter, I was born here therefore I am a "Native American" not an "Indian" but a Native. If you dispute my being a native American. We can take this back many many years. When man first evolved we began life in Africa and man then spread to the Mediteranean and on into Europe. From there throughout the rest of the world. So how far back must we go to be a "Native" of a country? If your born there your a NATIVE period. Following any other line of reason would allow me to sue for Slavery Reparations like the libs. Since we all stem from Africa and Slaves were taken from Africa, I would be entitled to reparations as well. Loose immagration laws has brought our country down. Allowing it to continue would be wrong. I aint into any PC crap. My mother is from Germany and my fathers lineage can only be traced back to Eastern Virgina (1860). My mother learned the language so why can not these people. I arrested a guy yesterday who has been in this country for 8 yrs could not speak the language he had no dricvers license and no insurnace for his truck, He went to jail, didn't pass GO and failed to collect his $200. I have no problem with some one wanting to come to this country and becoming a mechanic, welder, plumer, doctor or veternarian. Coming to work for under the table money drinking and placing a burden on local hospitals and the welfare programs aint cutting it. Oh, my mothers family was split by the wall it helped keep riff raff out of the East. Namely me, but I did go in for several visits. They had secure borders, I like their idea off border security.

Damn I rambled.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 17:04:08 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just some posts and back to my projects...still got the "leans" so have to be careful.

Steve, I agree with you on immigration. Come work, learn the language, and become American. NOT keep your language, poor work ethic, and bad habits used to beat our "system". Like you, I see this too, every day. We could do something about it, but government won't do a damn thing.

On trail guns...that M29 and load sounds perfect. We see eye to eye on that one. Load is damn good, too.

Assault Pack +plus from Tac Tailor: Mine has fastex buckles in additions to the zippers, so no accidental openings. Went the full meal deal on mine and is complete with hydration pack, top of the line straps, etc. I AM getting older and need my "creature comforts". Still working on the "Nordic Bitch", however.

Pete L., You'ld like the .35 Whelan Ackley Improved. Euro equivelent is the 9.3 X 62. Another damn fine cartridge!

Bolt, "gear whore" is a bit harsh. Try "Tactical Tester and enthusiastic survivalist"! That's got a ring to it!

Agree with the layer concept. Used it to good effect on active duty. Those things you can afford to drop are in the outer layers...

Bob, On the coyote/wolf/deer/elk issues. The canines seem to be much more adaptable to change that the "tasty snack" bretheren they hunt.

Part of the problem. The other is they are under hunted, trapped, etc.

Sounds like we are part of the solution. Think I'll go hug a fir tree now...

All for not, gents. Am enjoying our new topics and the fact that we are back to "normal"...whatever that is/was...;-)

Anyone see the Dennis Ermy take on the new USMC camoflauge? Looks like it's gonna be GREAT! Computer generated pixel pattern. Will look good in the closet next to my spetznatz camo coveralls!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:13:47 (ZULU)

Folks - misc items:

Gooch: class project - good idear. You hawgs come up with a mix. Once we all settle on the mix. We can turn around and raffle it - that way we can pay the builder to build it- and have some fun :)

Wildcats: All this talk about variations of 6mm, 7mm, etc - got me to thinking. Looking at the 338 caliber family - has the 338 -'06 combination been tried (talk about lots of barrel life) - or perhaps taking the .300WM and opening it up to 338. Seems like that case would be able to launch 250 grainers at a respectable velocity. Not to mention again - better barrel life.

Raffle status: The gun is ready, Sandy has the site ready - so -

WHEN DO YOUNZ WANT TO TURN ON THE RAFFLE? HOW ABOUT - SAY MONDAY 04-NOV-2002..???

KenM: "pussification.." LMAO --- I was laughing to myself at work yesterday about that one. Someone asked what was so funny - I said - nahhh never mind... it's 'gun subcultural thing'

Kids, etc: our daughter is off to college now. We filled that empty gap with a dog. Less maintenance, and more obedient. Bolt - don't worry - my ghillie suite hangs up out of her reach.

SemperFi Hawgs ...need to go cut some firewood. Gonna be cold here in NorthernVa this winter...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, us of a - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:15:14 (ZULU)

I like the Idea on the SC rifle. How about getting GA Precision to do a Prodcution run of the "ROCK" in either .308 or .300 WSM with special markings. Only registered DR members could get them. We can choose are own glass, or use the M3 LR gen II's. Light accurate, and built like a brick sh@#%$$&*t house.

I ran accross a HOWA heavy barreled rifle in .308 for $289 used. Looks dirty but are they worth rebarreling? Looks like a Remington, does the Remington accessories like badger, trigger, etc and such work???

Take Care

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:34:17 (ZULU)

SHOT SHOW: Hey guys, looks like I might get to go for the 1st time. Anybody else planning on going ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:41:24 (ZULU)

Ken; lemme know if she stays gone. Then tell me how you did it.

Pete; Out here in the WWW (wild wild west).We think of ourselves as Conquestadors. We just haven't finished the job yet. Sounds like Steve is still workin on it.

Raffle? bring it on!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 18:44:07 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, you didn't ramble man, i agree, i was thinking same thing, my lineage is suppose to go back across to Scandinavia, but who knows, we can trace it back so far and there is a connection you your former president.

I would say any one who moved after the industrial revolution would be an immigrant, but you could draw the line any where you wanted. Yep to fitting in, The wall was good, they should have re built it along the banks of the river oder. Where 's your Mum from?

I had a road rage incident with a damn ruskie immigrant only yesterday, the son of a bitch wanted some violence, was thumping on my car and threatening to kill my ass, the sight of my Browning 9mm shut the shit up, I reported the incident to the local police. I seem to attract these bastards, this must be the 4th or 5th run in I've had with an ivan over the last 3 years, maybe its cos i went hang my head and scuttle away like a typical pascifistic abused german.

Wes. 9.3x62 great round, very popular here.

Titan, me thinks Rem bases fit Howa, but i'm not 100%..

right guys, time to hit the road.. Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
Germanistan - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 19:05:01 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on my 670. Got some thinking to do.

Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
PA, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 20:15:57 (ZULU)

Ken, Gooch,

REF: Class Project--

Let's start by arguing about use/ caliber:

I say this stick could end up on some Department's wish list (or in their vault), so it needs to be a stick that would pass most criteria for a shrpshooter's tool.

That limits the "target" rounds viability (ie 6.5x284 and other odd-ball not readily available stuff with accuracy but not necessarily "penetration"); it will be shot a bunch, so fodder and match needs to be readily available; familiarity with existing systems is a good angle to pursue. Off the shelf factory ammo is a must, as is after market extras.

I say .300WSM, since this is an up and comer cartridge; we get the strenght of a medium/ short action, and well, hell--I want one. But I still say that the cartridge needs to be one of the standard rounds currently is use. Nobody will want it if there ain't supporting data readily available and understood.

Unless 'lito can talk Loopy into making a cam for whatever odd-ball round we finally decide on...

The next argument will center on the action. We'll end up adopting a remmy 700 due to the availability of smiths and accessories that will make it more betterer...badger bottom ends and lugs, et-al. But it'll be fun hearing some dissent. The Barrel arguments will be enlightening--I will take notes for my projects, and the stock--same thing. I like HS stocks, but I've only used McM's on my gas gun--they seem good on that application--but I am all ears for suggestions.

I have my note pad standing by to capture all the great ideas yous guys gen-up.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 20:28:10 (ZULU)

Bill Moore, Goodview,VA.

You have mail. N/A

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 20:29:03 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Just to start off on the feft foot, why not a M70 receiver? Is the 700 that much more prevalent? I never understood, even before this project was mentioned.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 20:33:14 (ZULU)

Gooch's Class Project....Hell Yes!!! Awesome idea, not just to raffle one off, but maybe then have produced like a L.E.G.P. (limited edition group purchase...lots of boards do this like AR15.com, etc)

JR,

You have mail 'bout barrels and other goodies....

One more sorta' obscure question...

Any of youse hawgs Wyomingans? (proper term?). I might be applying for a (dream) job in the Laramie area and just have some questions fer 'ya.

Later,

Rich S.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 21:10:40 (ZULU)

To get the action going:

Still sticking with 308 cause there is good factory match ammo,

Sub-Minute stock with adjustable LOP,

Rem 700 action,

Badger bottom metal/base/rings,

Rock 5R barrel,

Loopy M3 GEN2,

Custom removable match iron sights,

Anti-cant level,

Undude sling,

Harris Pod with Pod-Lock,

Set of match dies based on chamber,

Delivered in a custom hard case with 2 cases of Black Hills Match 175's!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 21:47:53 (ZULU)

Bolt, I think that you got it! (I don't know about the extra iron sights though)

I would have George or his "Ace in the hole" Eric put it together. I have a number of their rifles, and they sing!

Michael

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 22:04:58 (ZULU)

Bolt - I like your selections except I would like the HS mag system. Ok I will now duck for incoming.

Maybe we could get Eagle or Blackhawk to do dragbag/shooting mats engraved with the SC logo, and Otis cleaning kits. Because of the possible use as a duty rifle, have the choice of .308 or .300WSM. Also choice of Stock color, but make all of the finishes in the black teflon George uses. Having the spacer system and a matching cheek pack would be a must.

At least I am not suggesting AR-10T's...........

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 22:17:38 (ZULU)

Michael,

>>> Bolt, I think that you got it! (I don't know about the extra iron sights though) <<<

Ahhh, back up irons are a great idea. Then he can use it for any/any on match days mang.

I'd maybe throw a 4" rail in starting where the rear stud would be and moving back toward the trigger. Gives you a little veratility that you'd otherwise not have at a cost on nothing. Otherwise,, it all comes down to which stock you like and how much barrel weight you're willing to carry.

I do like the idea of some type of roll stamp, only for SC members. Something done the way Georges' GA Precision barrel stamp is done.

THEN,, when Bolt REALLY gets sick with long range prone-itis,, he can get a McProne stock and have it bedded for the same rifle, which he'll keep in a bag that containes a torque wrench, his Warner sights and iris adjustes, a barrel wrench and a switch barrel chambered in 6.5x284 so he can get the job done when the wind is blowing. ;))

Scoped of course,,,, if he has a 308 with irons,and is shooting with a jacket, does that make him a Palma Fag? ;))) EXACTLY,, that's why I use richly named wildcats.

Ohhh, what a wicked web we weave....

Titan,

NOTHING sticks to the teflon. If you're gonna cammo it,, it's gonna be tied on.

FatBoy...

Rotund One,

You gots it mang! Plus, when you're out in the boonies and yer optics take a pill you can slap on the irons and keep shootin the aliens! I like the rail system ideeee also.

Also, want to modify the Pod so that it swivels AND rotates side to side. I am woiking on a design for that problem now.

Titan,

Just say no to mags!

Also,

We could add a super duper laser range finder, an MRE heater with attached cappachino maker, a pocket DVD player for when the aliens are napping, and a full set of Tracy Lords movies!

I still like the Nordic Bitch idea!

Homework for tonight for you younguns that want info on gear:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Bug+Out+Bag+&btnG=Google+Search

I want a 5 page, single spaced essay before class tomorrow!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 23:05:52 (ZULU)

You can sure tell it's Sat. nite!:) Do we get a humvee to mount that puppy on?

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 23:09:52 (ZULU)

Boltster,

The cappachino maker came up before,, when Sinister Dave and I were going over the RAS system for a build up AR-10 that Titan got me thinking of... Funny how things come full circle ;)) I think it was agreed that the powder pack to keep the coffee pot going was going to be too heavy,,, but you'll still have folgers crystels to much on. If you gots Tracy Lord movies that are prior to her final,, you gots collector items mang.... Don't wear them out. And yes,, play, rewind, play, rewind, play, rewind,, is BADDDD for movies. ;))

So,, 7mm mag shooter,, i KNOW you're out there,,, how many rounds you getting from a tube and what's are ya shooting?

PeteL,

Told Elen and Coda hi for the Misses and the two wee ones. I agree,, it IS time for you to get the internet up at the house.... speaking of which,, you done with that balcony yet? How's about that shop in the basement?

FatBoy...

Gents,

Wow! A Rifle Raffle and class project! Too cool!

I'm pretty firmly wedded to the .308 for tactical use...because it works. Can't see the .300 WSM or big magnums in that role...except in a special case. Let's face it, 99.9% of the time the old .308 gets the job done. Couple that with the multitude of rounds available for the chambering. It just doesn't get better than this...

Stock: I would opt for one of the new McMillan GPC patterns with the new adjustable check piece(that stays put). Add an accessory rail and a adjustable LOP/recoil pad and you're there.

Action: Remmie...they work. Second choice would be pre-'64 M70

Barrel: AMTU/#10 taper with the choice of length. I prefer 26"

Sling: One of Mike's Tactical wonders AND a leather Turner Saddlery sling for us traditionalists.

Badger Bottom metal, mounts, and rings.

Parker-Hale Bi-Pod

An anti-cant device? Never used one myself and seem to do all right. Would like your views on this...who uses them or is it just a "cool accessory".

Dewey cleaning rod and accessories.

Pelican 1750 travel vault.

Include a set of Redding Comp dies and you have an ideal rig.

That about sums up the rifle.

Now, to the "Nordic Bitch": 5'2", 38DD, honey blond hair in short bob,

able to pack at least our sleep gear and latte' maker...;-)

Never had one, but there was this Swedish gal in Spokane...

All for now,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 23:52:43 (ZULU)

The Lee Marvin, Bob Keeshan thing is urban legend according to:

http://www.snopes.com/military/keeshan.htm

Origins: We can't say for sure whether actor Lee Marvin ever related something like the story described above to Johnny Carson on the Tonight Show (Marvin was a guest on the show seven times during Carson's tenure as host), but the details of the anecdote are undeniably false.

Lee Marvin did enlist in the U.S. Marines, saw action as Private First Class in the Pacific during World War II, and was wounded (in the buttocks) by fire which severed his sciatic nerve. However, this injury occurred during the battle for Saipan in June 1944, not the battle for Iwo Jima, which took place several months later, in February 1945. (Marvin also did receive a Purple Heart, and he is indeed buried at Arlington National Cemetery.)

Bob Keeshan, later famous as television's "Captain Kangaroo," also enlisted in the U.S. Marines, but too late to see any action during World War II. Keeshan was born on 27 June 1927 and enlisted two weeks before his 18th birthday, months too late to have taken part in the fighting at Iwo Jima. A 1997 interview with Keeshan noted that he "later enlisted in the U.S. Marines but saw no combat" because, as Keeshan said, he signed up "just before we dropped the atom bomb."

Last updated: 1 August 2002

Rod Regier <rsr@hfx.andara.com>
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, November 2, 2002, at 23:56:33 (ZULU)

Wes, I have used the Scope Level and I don't like them. May work for some, but just something else to watch. If you want one you can have mine for shipping cost.

HDR

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 00:42:13 (ZULU)

Bolt; you and Titan did good but let try this. A .308 Stainless 700 VSS with a 18" barrel. It would use B-square mounts and be sporting a Sheperd P2 and a pair of forked sticks for a bipod. A length of Air Conditioner hose tubing with camo tape on it to hide the stainless. A cut of rubber from an old tire tube for a scope cover. And one of those Miracle Nylon slings from Wally world or a surplus leather military sling. It would be crowned with a cone shaped dremmel tool and be sporting the factory barrel naturally. Use a Walmart gun sock to protect it and a length of cotton rope in case you need to drag the gun sock behind.

I'm kiddin for Christsake! But I just shot a couple of 3" groups at 600 yards with one just like this last Friday! Eat your heart out George and Jerry!

Seriously you grunts don't pay no attention to me, you guys are doing great!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 00:44:10 (ZULU)

Chris, if either you or Sinister get a line on some SR-25 FF RAS I will take two. I got my hands on one from a SR-25 about a year ago and it bolts right up to the AR-10T's. The pisser is Kinghts will not or has not released any in part form for sale, eventhough they publish a part number for a kit. The AR-15 models are out but not the bigger ones. Unlike the round tubes the SR-25 model it bigger so the top rail lines up with the reciever. I went over this in detail on AR-15 .com about 6 months ago or so. I would love to have one for the .300SRUM AR-10 project that I am working on.

Brogers - don't forget the OD duct tape for attaching the Surfire to the Shepturd for night work. Which reticle do I pick again?????? I can't remember........LOL Bill.

I got some AR-10 mags from Armalite recently, and they are now using a feed lip modification on the new production that is identical to the one I have been using for years. Maybe they did read my emails after all.......

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Cold as Heck, Michigan, United States of America - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 01:50:11 (ZULU)

10-4 Officer! Duct tape I forgot!

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 03:32:09 (ZULU)

Peter, You can trace your heritage back to one of our Presidents, You don't mean Clinton do you? Hhaha.. Sorry Couldn't pass that up..

Hey the 300 WSM necked up to 338 sounds really good but an official rifle should be done in military calibers. Just my humble opinion. 50 BMG is official military stuff, hahha.

I need a few Fastex bukles for a project. Does Michaels carry these? If not would fabric shops? I wanna trick out my pack with kool fasteners for my scope and shooting mat.

WES, "Now, to the "Nordic Bitch": 5'2", 38DD, honey blond hair in short bob,able to pack at least our sleep gear and latte' maker...;-)"

Isn't she the sleeping gear and latte' maker?

Works getting crazy folks can not drive but still try even in wet weather. We are up to 754,000 calls for the year so far. We have 1 million folks in this town and it seems each one wants to call the police once per year.

Dirty Steve, Out...

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 05:07:57 (ZULU)

John,

The consensus is to use push feed on a tac-rig. The pre-64 is on one of my favorite riffles; and I may use it for a project here right soon too. But the push-feeds give an option--tossing a round in the chamber in a pinch--that could damage the extractor on a controlled feed after a while (yeah then big ol' claws will wear after abit of this). The M70 push, like the stealth's, ain't a bad way to go, but the 700 has a whole bunch of toys already on the after-market ready to go. More= cheap. More of less. Haha. And getting a stock inletted for the 700 opens alot of choices...everyone builds one or two, eh?

DBM? For this? Nawwwww. Let's not build a tuning nightmare into this already!

Now if we build a 308 and 300 option, are we going long action? Why not 308 and 300 wsm? That way both sticks will have a shorter action, more better IMHO.

Nothing at the show worth the money to buy. One guy had a barrelled action, M700 and claimed it had a 5R--first thing that got me wondering was the 26" length. Then, I wondered what that sixth ridge was doin' in there...but I just chuckled and went on my way. Who knows what it wuzzz, but a 5r it wudn't. And man, are those mausers climbing in price. Shoulda bought them out of that box full last year!! I'm thinking the gunshow is a ploy for retailers anymore. Been awhile since I went to one...and this one disappointed.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 05:10:22 (ZULU)

A "Class project"??? HA!, Double HA!!

Dang, Mang... this raggity bunch can't agree on anything ;))

Sir Wesley...

>"Now, to the "Nordic Bitch": 5'2", 38DD, honey blond hair in short bob, able to pack at least our sleep gear and latte' maker...;-)"<

See! I Tol' you so...

... make it - "Nordic Bitch": 5'10", 36C (I know what 38DDs look like when the straps come off :(( no thank you), honey blond hair (Red heads will do in a pinch), straight and long, down her back. And like Dirty Steve said, she IS the "sleep gear and latte' maker" ;)

To class project sticks, it needs to be built on a Remchester M70/0 action, with a complete set of hot swappable barrels in .308, 300WM, 6.5x284, and .260 (and two sizes in each caliber, 28" for the real shooters, and 16" for the fast draw crowd).... optics to be a USO made "EXACT" copy of the MK4-M3 with two sets of controls... both M3 cams and M1 1/4moa turrets (for those that can't make up their mind), and it must get final inspection by Tabasco.

Stock... a Choat copy of the McMillan A-2, with the forend of a "Marksman", and the thumb wheel cheekpiece from Anschutz. Camo pattern should come from stickie papre (like shelf wrap) so it can be changed at will, depending on area of deployment.

Case to be the new Blackhawk "Ridgid dragbag" with power assist wheels both front and back, with built in peltier heater/cooler to keep ammo at a constant temperature.

That's just a start... should be built by at least eleven gun makers, so no one feel left out.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 11:24:53 (ZULU)

New Remingtons...

Last night, I took delivery of a Rem 700 Clasic in .221 Fireball that I had ordered three months ago. This is the first factory M700 field rifle I have bought in many years.

The dealer and I went over it, and:

The stock looks ok, the grain is dark filled

... but the wood looks like Mo-ha-gany, then stained walnut. The checkering didn't fill the patern, so I will have to hand cut it this winter to finish what they should have done.

The action had belt sander marks on the bridge that weren't taken off with the final polish (?? Polish, at Remington, that's an oximoron!). The "polish" was un-even on the action, so some parts (mostly over the bridge) was duller than the rest of the action. :((

No polish on the barrel either... a fine cut, but straight off the lathe :( !!

The crown is very clean... a dish crown with a very slight (.02) countersink, so that's good.

The barrel seems to have all the rifling, though shooting will tell!

The new "lockable" bolt sucks! I had already ordered a replacement "old style" bolt shroud, and put it in last night.

I also noticed the following... in the old rifles, it you just brought the bolt handle up and down, it would be enough to cock it... with the new one, you have to pull the bolt back a few millimeters to catch the pin release... was the same with both bolt shrouds, and I recall another Rosterfarian saying the same thing.

I may not get to shoot it this year... I forgot to order brass and dies... the rass will be here on Wednesday, but the dies are two weeks away, and it's getting cold to do benchwork :((.

Mang, some one at Remington should get a 20 year old Rem and look at how it's finished.

Unfortunatly... this was the "pick of the litter", so I'll keep it cuz it'll do what I want, but Rem needs to get a wake up call.

See... I actually DO buy Remingtons, and I'll criticize my own!

By the way... I saw "Pulp Fiction" on the TV last night for the first time... will someone PLEASE tell me why that POS won so many awards.

Maybe the white-bread hollywood types are so intimidated by words like "N*gg*r" and "Moth**F**ker... that if you make a move that has both words about every other second, they figger it's a underclass political statement, and are afraid to pan it... whatta piece of junk movie!

Maybe it's just that I'm getting old, and like a plot, a storyline, good editing, good special effects, and decent acting... and drugs and useless shootings and blood are getting to be clichéd.

Pack me off to the nursing home ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 11:53:23 (ZULU)

Joe,

I'll have to check my rifles, I thought all my M70s' were push feed. None of 'em have the mauser type claw extractor. Confused for sure. I get it about the "drop a round in". I do it more often than I stuff the mag. Is the Rem. easier to work on or stronger or just plain more available?

'lito,

When you close the bolt does it release the trigger? All of my older ones (pre-bolt lock) will. Hold the trigger down and close the bolt and the pin releases. Is this better than dry firin?

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 12:35:48 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Yesteray I was reading that some shooters are having trouble with WSM cartridges in M70 and M700 actions. Something about there not being enough barrel left around the case/chamber, and when it''s fired the receiver momentarily swells at the threaded section. The brass swells to meet the size of the new larger chamber and when the chamber shrinks back down after the pressure lets off, you get a stuck bolt or VERY hard extraction. It's reported to be worse with the winchesters, as the remingtons are supposed to have a slight bit more meat around the barrel threads.

Anyone of ya'll WSM shooters expierence anything like this?

FatBoy...

Sumpin I just don't understand.....

The 6.5x284 appears to be one of the best rounds ever developed for long range. There is even factory ammo available. Which, indirectly means that it would be a great hunting round also. WHY don't the manufacturers offer a factory riffle for this round? Heck, I would even buy a Ru..Ru..uuggg..ggeee, well you know what gun I'm talking about, if they would chamber a factory rifle for it. It seems really really stoopid that all they have to do is take an 06 action and put a different barrel on it to have one of the best guns out there. People have bought the 300Ultra, 7STW, 300WSM and 7mmWSM, why the hell don't they think that people would buy a gun chambered for a round that beats the hell out of all the preceeding???????????? If I'm missing something here please advise!

Yep, I am a bitcher and proud of it, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 13:49:41 (ZULU)

Damn guys,

The SC rifle is supposed to be AFFORDABLE to actually buy by folks other than an independantly wealthy millionare. Keep the thing basic. Good ideas though.

Win or Rem dont matter to me. But other than that it should be a practical, tactical rig not a bench rest gun. If we do this right the builder should be able to market the thing as a field rig. In my mind it should be a George, Marty, Andy Webber conspiracy.

Catch you guys later. Hit the road in a few hours.

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
Click on my name to visit the leader in tactical marksmanship training - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 14:11:14 (ZULU)

Bolt,

My GUESS is that Winchester put an ass load of money into developing the WSM family and has put a lot of their future stock into it's success. If they introduce the 6.5x284win, they'll cut the legs out of the smaller WSM's. NOW, winch is gonna release the 6.5 in a WSSM (Winchester super short magnum). WTF is up with that? It'll should look like a big PPC.

Reports from the 6.5-300WSM wildcat,, 650 rounds per barrel,,,, but I may not get much over that the way things are looking now. MAN am I hard on throats...

Gooch,

Have a safe trip man. Hope to see you checking in from time to time.

FatBoy...

Gooch,

As always, very good point. Take care but have fun, it oughta be a great trip and huge learning experience as well. I'm jealous. The training community will be shortchanged w/o you.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 14:57:21 (ZULU)

Guys, there's a new smith out there I need to tell ya'll about.

His name is LEO CONRING. Was an MC S/S but then got out. Went to 'smith school in Colorado and studied some with John Nowlin (.45 guy). Went back in the Corps later as an armorer and worked at the Precision Weapon Shop at Quantico. I.E. Building the Corps Sniper rifles and Competition guns. Great friends with the Hathcocks.

He just opened his own shop near Spotsylvania, VA. Jim Ed Land and Gunny Jim Owens are good friends as well. I also understand that he and Eric at Georges place are great friends also. Norm Chandler just tried to hire him. Leo turned him down.

He built me a stick I have yet to receive because he is going to use it as a promo for his website when he gets it up.

I sent Leo all the components for my rifle and he has taken his time putting it together at his own pace. (It's not like I don't have anything to shoot). It was the last rifle he built before leaving the MC. I asked him how it shot and I think it was akin to asking if his mom was kinky.

I'll get some pics up somewhere when it comes in.

(OD MCMillan A3 w/ cheekpiece, bedded metal inserts for the swiv/studs - MIKE BARBER r.i.p. - built this stock for me), 22" Schneider, HUGE recoil lug, DD Ross double screw rings, DDR rail w/ 8-40s, DDR bottom metal. MC A4 bedding, specs etc).

Leo is one fine fellow and will talk guns all day. Reminds me a whole lot of George. Same kind of man. Great work. Hardened rifles. Realistically priced. Been on both sides of the fence. Actually WAS a SNIPER. Not trying to make a whole years salary on one rifle sale. Honest. Goes to church. Not scum like me. He is a good friend.

I'll keep ya'll posted.

I know there is a lot of competition out there and $ can bring out the worst in folks. But I believe George and Leo are cut from the same cloth. Hell, call Eric and ask him about Leo if you need to.

JUST A THOUGHT - Since he's trying to get started, maybe you guys could consider letting him build the SC stick. If not, maybe he could do one for us in the future ? like I said ... just a thought.

I know George is a friend to all here including myself and everyone has their loyalties and I like George Gardner and Marty Bordsen just fine.

Just putting the info out there. A quality 'smith with a conscience in the VA area.

By all means, tell him who sent ya.

CONRINGS PRECISION WEAPON SYSTEMS # 804.632.1111 FAX 804.632.1112

21328 Penola Rd.

Ruther Glen VA. 22546

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 15:16:00 (ZULU)

Chris, I have a 300WSM laminate stock, heavy stainless barrel, control feed Model 70 and it's great. No problems with any ammo factory or otherwise. Some asshole gunshop commando is making shit up for whatever reason. The Rugers, Dakotas and Sakos are available in 338Lapua, 416 Rigby and the Dakota calibers, which are all larger then the WSM's and I've never heard any problems and I've shot the Sakos in 416Rigby and 338Lapua with STOUT loads. Some asswit is just loading his ammo too hot cause he's stupid. Or he used a screw that was too long on the scope base and it's intruded into the bolt lug raceways binding up the locking lugs. Look for a nice shiny wear/gall line on the outer edge of the bolt lugs for this one.

I've never had any problems with the controlled feed actions and single loading. You bevel the edge of the extractor and then you press in on the extractor body(the piece that rides along the bolt) as it rides forward over the rim of the round and it snaps right over, no problems. I don't think this is as big a deal as people make it out to be. #1 I always have the mag full and if I need more than 5 rds I'll be going to the M16 about the time the mag runs out, at which point I'm going to be forgetting all about the big, heavy, hard to point, over scoped, manually operated cannon. #2 I don't have any peculiar ammo varietys to be shot on short notice like in a "select slug" shotgun drill. We might need AP and I keep some tracer on hand, but it won't be one of those things where the extra 2 seconds is gonna matter IMO. Besides, it'll probably be wiser to load a bunch i the mag in case your AP bounces off or the machine gunners/squad leaders/whomever don't see your first tracer cause it's a dark star. But hey, whatever's clever. I've seen guys get double loaded rifles with M40A1's that NEVER would have happened with controlled feed guns. And I might see some stuff that happens with controlled feed guns that won't happen with push feed. A competent shooter can make either one work, and work well.

Class rifle? Hmm, I'm thinking that a hand tweaked FN SPR would be really nice. Chambered in 6.5-284. BH makes ammo and Hornady will be shortly, I'm expecting. Getting ammo won't be that huge a problem for police and I've already told about how military operations are going to be run what you brung so ammo won't be a major problem for us either, IMO, with a little change in the attitude of the HQ slugs. That nice hard chromed barrel should go 4K+ rounds and that's plenty. Performance will leave 308 in the dust, which is going to be nice at the long assed distances endemic to paces like N Iraq and NK. Allows lots of stand-off, which is good when the CAS bubbas drop CBU's which have huge danger areas because they shotgun effect, complete with fliers, that will head unerringly for your hide site. S/F...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 15:21:11 (ZULU)

KenM,

Chrome lined bore for the 6.5x284,, NOW you're onto something ;))

I wouldn't look for BH or any of the manufactureres to be selling bright bullets. Seems the brights had some unexpected presure problems, which would be consistent with my expierence. Most of the FagMag shooters use MOLY anyway,, save for myself and two or three others I've seen,, from about 50 shooters. Hornady is gonna sell some factory shit huh,,,, Hope they clean that brass up prior to sale,, or NO ONE will be able to chamber the stuff. I got a report from a shooter who's used some of the Hornady brass. Says it looks like crap but shoots as well as the winchester.

I'm beginning to think the 7-300WSM chambered for the 180 berger VLD's, is what I'm gonna run with. A 1:9" twist 30" to 32" barrel in a prone stock with a 70/0 magnum action. IF I can get 2K from a barrel, I'll flute. I may also try some of the Cartarucio (sp??) 156gr VLD's. They're supposed to have a BC of like .68 or some damn thing like that. If they fly right, it might help to cut down on some of the recoil. If not,, I'll keep looking for the perfect round.

I still love the 6.5x284 though,, and if I have to replace a barrel every six month it will still be worth it. I'll just start buying douglas, and BUY my reamers ;))

FWIW,, my wifes CBS at 1K the other day with Gumby was a "7" at 3 oclock with wind at dialed to 0. Mirage was running left to right,, flag was running right to left... Looks like she has better luck with it than myself.

FatBoy...

I'm not going to input on specs for the "tactical SC piece" but.....

I do think it should reflect the general consensus that's been SC discussion over the past 5 or 6 years. Not a dream rifle with 15 barrels and a murial painted on the stock perhaps but a good solid "ROCK!" if you get my jest that average riflemen of the "Sniper Cult" can afford. Something that reflects this place and the great Smith's and other craftsmen that lurk here. 6.5X284 seems bent on inheriting the earth and I have no objection to that caliber. Too bad Remington can't maintain a quality action but that's been our staple over the years.

A few years down the road those who inherit that period can always build generation II.

HEADLINES

Saudi's say no use of their bases for U.S. against Iraq. Fine, then no protection for Saudi's if Iraq invades. of COURSE they won't because they're all brothers. Standby to retarget.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 16:01:27 (ZULU)

Natives,

Even the "Native Americans" aren't really natives! They emigrated here from Asia across the frozen Bering Straits. And how about that dead guy that the scientists dug up in the Pacific Northwest, and our fine "Native Americans" tried their best to claim so they could block further research that might prove that they weren't here first! Our scientists recently won the court case, or so I heard, so the truth might someday be revealed. This corpse is Caucasian, and predates any American Indian grave exhumation ever found!

This is not a racial thing aimed at the American Indian. I only want to make the point that wherever people claim "Native" status anywhere, it comes to light that sometime in pre-history members of their tribe invaded and took away someones land. He who is strong enough to take the territory can keep it only as long as he can hold it.

Ken H,

Were you asking about the .338-'06? It's been a legit cartridge for maybe a couple (+/-) of years now. Chambered by Weatherby in a couple of their real lightweight models and ammo called .338-'06 A-Square, available in Weatherby or A-Square brands. A hunting buddy got one just before this season, so far 1 Bull & 1 Bear! He says that it's become his favorate big game rifle, and he owns every SM there is both Remington and Winchester. Reports 1.25MOA with factory ammo and kicks like a heavily loaded .30-'06. Of course, it's been an old-time wildcat forever, and competes directly with the SM's, so guess what?

Bolt,

NIH syndrome! RemChester wants their name on it/them.

John,

I never considered dry-firing a bolt action centerfire rifle of the Mauser-pattern damaging at all. Dry-firing is great practice when the range is snowed in, or you're a fair weather paper puncher & gong ringer like me;-) Shotguns, .22RF's and some autoloaders shouldn't be dry-fired, but go for it with your bolt gun!

'lito,

You should have watched "The Bone Collector", it was on last night too.

Gang,

I agree with Mr. Gooch. Don't want no benchrest rig or race gun!

Also, like many others on the Roaster, I already own a custom built hardened .308, and have a .300WM custom Tac rifle too. I cast a vote for the 6.5-.284 because it's well on the way to becoming ligitimate (don't want no Wildcats) and yet I've been too conservative with my money to actually have one built! I take you "true believers" in this cartridge at your word, but this way if I happen to win one and don't like it I'll only be out a raffle ticket;-)

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 17:04:03 (ZULU)

John (ace)...

Joe,

>"I thought all my M70s' were push feed. None of 'em have the mauser type claw extractor. Confused for sure."<

If none of them have a Mouser claw, then they are push feed, there is no third option.

>"Is the Rem. easier to work on or stronger or just plain more available?"<

None of the above... up 'til about 8 years ago, the Rem was a LOT cheaper. The military has always used the Winchester heavy target and heavy varmint (slimmer stock) rifles as sniper rifles from WW2 up through Vietnam.

Then Winchester went through the "Dark Years" (post '64 production), and Remington had just introduced their heavy varmint rifle (the HBV, now called the VS) that was half the price of the Winchester. The military started buying the Remingtons for the Vietnam conflict, and that is how the Rem got the current preference. The Win action is better, larger, doesn't have the problems of rounds sticking in the left lug grove, and a lot of other advantages.

>" 'lito, When you close the bolt does it release the trigger? "<

What do you mean? When you close the bolt, if it releases the trigger, how do you shoot it??

>" All of my older ones (pre-bolt lock) will. Hold the trigger down and close the bolt and the pin releases."<

DO you mean that the pin "slides" down (very good, and normal), or do you mean that it releases like a "snap" (Very badd, and not normal for any riffle).

FatDude...

>"... It's reported to be worse with the winchesters, as the remingtons are supposed to have a slight bit more meat around the barrel threads."<

Bad rumors, bad Juju, and badd bullshit!... the Win and Rem actions are both 1.345" +/- 0.005 at the ring. But remember this (very important!!)... the barrel screws into the ring, and it is NOT a "Cold barrel/hot ring" fit. So there are several thousandths of space between the barrel and the ring... the threads just pull the barrel back, but there is space between the tops of the threads and the rings. You wouldn't be able to screw it on if it was a compression fit.

But, also consider that the first part of the chamber is the case head and web... so that part of the case isn't going to put pressure on the barrel/ring at all... the thin part of the case is in FRONT of the reciever ring.

Also... remember that these actions have been chambered for much larger cartridges, and never had a problem. Both recievers can take pressures well in excess of 100,000 psi without grumbling... it is the case that is the weak link.

... and Winchester is spelled with a capital "W", Remington is spelled either way ;))

Bolt-ster...

Consider a few things... the 284 was orginally designed to give the power of a 7mm-06 in short action, lever and semi-auto hunting rifles. The case design was brillant, considering that the rifles were not popular and discontinued some 35-ish years ago, but the case has been in continual production for all that time, and now is made by many companies. One of the failings was that, because of the short action, the bullets needed to be seated way into the powder space.

Also... Winchester made the .264 WM in the 60's and it was a real screamer in the long 26" and longer barrels, but in the 22" barrels that were popular in those days, it was only about 100 fps faster than the favorite .270, but the .264 ate barrels for lunch.

So Winchester has had experence in these things... the current 6.5x284 is really a custom issue because it needs to be built on a long action with the bullets seated way out, to be worth the effort... anyone that is building a 6.5x284 on a short action needs to have their head examined.

Also... if a shooter has enough experence to build a 6.5x284, then they know what to expect in barrel live... but if it's an off the rack rifle, then beginners will buy it, thinking they have a "Magic stick" and when the barrels go, they will bitch about what a shitty cartridge it is.

The same thing happened to the .220 Swift, back some 40 years ago. A great cartridge in the hands of a skilled loader, but guys bought it because of the MV numbers, and said it was a dog because it ate barrels... the Swift dissapeared for about 30 years, and is now only chambered by a few limited makers, and custom builders.

The biggest disadvantage the the WSM group is that they are designed for a short action (same problem as the orginal .284)... in order to get them to play well, they need to be built on a long action.

'yote Bate...

>"Saudi's say no use of their bases for U.S. against Iraq."<

Funny how short their memories are. Just ten years ago, Saudi was Saddam's next aquistion.

I'm with you... "Fuck 'em"!!

Alan...

On the natives thing... hell, we're ALL African Americans, just go back far enough. So we are all African Americans, or we are all "What we were born as". The only hyphenated-Americans are the ones with naturalization papers, and their kids loose that lable as soon as they hit the sheets.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 18:04:23 (ZULU)

Thread on long-range.com listing 600 and 1,000 yard ranges open to the public:

http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=59&t=221&s=2921b8b23a13e2d95c4568f7fa5db15a

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 18:52:41 (ZULU)

Hey Fellers,

Another kinda' Off topic question.

Anyone here from (or go to school in) Murfreesboro TN, Laramie WY, or Warrensburg MO? I'm lookin' at applying at the schools in those cities and would like to know any poop about the schools, regions etc.

thanks guys,

Rich S.

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 19:05:42 (ZULU)

I got ahold of a reamer drawing for JGS's 7WSM reamer. The headspace is pushed out a .038" over the 270 and 300WSM. Guess they didn't want any numbskulls chambering 270 into 7mm or visa versa. Click my name to see the spec sheet/drawing.

I had figured that the standard magnum actions would work, but it's so new,,, I really wasn't sure. Winchester chambers their new "classic" action rifles in the WSM. I don't know that I've seen a factory push feed chambered with any of the WSM varients.

No takers on the life of a 7mm mag yet,,, I know there some hunters out there that shoot these,, come on,,,, give it up mangs,,,, pass on the numbers.

I think if the "Project" rifle is going to represent the true spirit of SC,, the way I see it anyway, a military caliber is a must. 308 being the obvious choice. The roll stamp could be put on anything though ;))

'Lito,

You must have read it before I went back and editted. Man I love that feature...

Does Badger make mounts for the Magnums yet? Gotta do some web searchin'

FatBoy...

Chris, I figure the 7WSM is going to be very similar in barrel life to all the other magnums. I expect to get 1500-1800 out of my 7mm Rem Mag, about the same as as 300Win. You're going to