Sniper Country Duty Roster Archives
November 01, 2001 - November 06, 2001


Gloves; I've found in several places, sometimes Wal-mart super Centers look for a wool type Mitten that has open fingers that can be put inside and outside of the mitten without help from the other hand. This is the warmest thing I've ever found wet or dry. A large part of my work with it is as a Telecommunications Lineman on outside plant not to mention the coyote hunting. They only cost $12 or so.

It provides the dexterity and warmth for trigger pulling and lying in the snow. It Starts with a finger clipped Glove with a mitten sewed with a piece of velcro so it can be attached out of the way. They are hands down(pun) the best!

Dave the Sinister; I shot a .300 Rum and was supposed to complete a test that hasn't materialized yet. It was a Sendero, I can only say it was the most impressive thing I've been around for a long time. The wind was 40mph and the Rum just laughed and shot 1 moa groups at 500. This cartridge is a Kick Shicker. I wish the test gun would arrive. 90 grains of Reloader 22 I think it was for 180 grainers out to 3400+,. No bad blast or recoil but it was a handfull. I wouldn't touch that .338 Rum in standard weight with a 10 foot pole.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 00:04:17 (ZULU) 

Lito

The code section you are looking for is 10 U.S.C. sec. 4309, which is quoted below:

§ 4309. Rifle ranges: availability for use by members and civilians

(a) Ranges available.--All rifle ranges constructed in whole or in part with funds provided by the United States may be used by members of the armed forces and by persons capable of bearing arms.

(b) Military ranges.--

 (1) In the case of a rifle range referred to in subsection (a) that is located on a military installation, the Secretary concerned may establish reasonable fees for the use by civilians of that rifle range to cover the material and supply costs incurred by the armed forces to make that rifle range available to civilians.
 
 

(2) Fees collected pursuant to paragraph (1) in connection with the use of a rifle range shall be credited to the appropriation available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle range and shall be available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle range.

 (3) Use of a rifle range referred to in paragraph (1) by civilians may not interfere with the use of the range by members of the armed forces.

(c) Regulations.--Regulations to carry out this section with respect to a rifle range shall be prescribed, subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned, by the authorities controlling the rifle range.

Blaine Fields <blf@techtrials.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 00:12:16 (ZULU) 

Blaine Fields...

Thanks Dude, that's exactly what I'm looking for... the NG Dweeb said if there WAS such a law, I would have to produce it to the local JAG... jeeze, and we're 'posed to think these twinkies are going to go against the 'stanie boys... I'm keepin' my stick under my pillow (it's a L-O-N-G pillow ;)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 00:39:16 (ZULU) 


Report on Taliban propaganda.  The part about us seizing thier airwaves is pretty funny.

"The Americans drop bombs, and we are helpless," said Haji Abdul Qayuum, "We want the Americans to send in their ground forces."

Be careful what you wish for, Abdul.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$3EDU1EAAACK1LQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/01/wtal01.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/01/ixhome.html

B52s carpet bombing Taliban front line positions.  I'll have to admit that a continued application of this type of thing fulfills my, "HULK WILL SMASH!!!" impulse.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$3EWLHRQAACLVJQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/01/wmil01.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/01/ixhome.html

Make sure you check out the links at the bottom of the above page.

More on the Ranger mission.  For anyone actually interested in infantry combat, this link is a little sobering.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$3EWLHRQAACLVJQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/10/26/war226.xml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else. - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 01:07:21 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers,

So you liked the 300 RUM? I'm debating on rebarreling my 300WM to the WM or to the RUM. I've been talking to my smith, Jeff Hicks, and he says the RUM is a great long range round, in it's 220 and 240 grn loadings, and is pretty accurate with handloads. Honestly, how does the recoil of the RUM compare to the 300WM say shooting 190grn Federal GMM? The 300WM recoil is not bad at all and I can and have shot over 60 rounds of it ina sitting. I'm just wondering for comparisons sake. Any other info you could give me would be appreciated. Thanks.

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
- Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 01:38:39 (ZULU) 

As a tactical plan. I don't know why we would want to have a big winter campaign in those mountains. We tried that in Korea and there was no percentage in it. Hitler froze his butt off in Russia and so did Napoleon. About first snow we'll kick em out and let the NA take the Capitol after killin whoever comes out to defend it. The others will spend a lovely winter in the ski resorts in the high country. By Spring they'll be broke and hungry and eaten their horses. The mountain tribes can survive but they'll be fightin each other all winter up there.   It's a good place for em! We got other fish to fry in the meantime. I hear the trout fishing in Iraq is lovely this time of year if you use the right explosives. The NA can roll into the capitol and build their  winter fires there. We;re gonna be around here for a long time anyway. Time is on our side. It's hard to imagine we can affect terrorism much anyway till they give it up except in what we are doing here and elsewhere in security and banking.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 03:39:28 (ZULU) 


Hey guys, I got one for you... I work for a "City of" in the Portland Oregon greater metro area. I recieved the following email:

From: Human Resources Director

Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 2:58 PM

To: All Staff

Subject: Personal Patriotic Displays in City Vehicles
 
 

Recently some staff have added their own personal patriotic displays

(flags, pictures of flags, patriotic statements) in the City's vehicles. These personal displays are not permitted. The City Garage staff have placed a flag sticker on all of the City's vehicles. These stickers are intended to show the City's support of our country during this difficult time.

If you have added your own personal patriotic display to a City vehicle, please remove it.
 
 

Human Resources Director

.....................................................................

I sent the following email back after reading another one reminding us that we had to wear our ID badges on the outside of our Halloween costumes:

From: Tim McCrary

Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:37 PM

To: All Staff

Subject: RE: Personal Patriotic Displays in City Vehicles
 
 

I guess it's ok to wear costumes that promote Pagan beliefs, but it's not ok to promote American ideals by displaying the flag.

.....................................................................

I got a verbal reprimand for my trouble and they took my email away for three months. I also had to remove my flag from my work truck. I may be looking for a new job soon. My major sin was that I sent it to "all staff" which included the mayor on down. 8)

I must say that I did recieve alot of emails back in support and only one in the negative.

Tim

Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 04:47:08 (ZULU) 

Go Gizmo.

Tell it like it is. Black & white. Someone's got to stand up & tell the bureaucrats whats right.

I like to follow up those 'reprimand' sessions with, "well, was I wrong?" Of course no, but thats not how we want to be interpreted kind of bull is how they drivel.

Sounds like it would be a good union grievance at least.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 06:14:17 (ZULU) 

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
- Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 08:01:01 (ZULU) 


Dave Baranec:

I have a Rem 700P with what I thought was the same problem, I could only get it to shoot 1 1/2 to 2 in groups. It seemed to only like 147 to 150gr bullets.  Bought some Federal Gold Metal Match ammo in 168gr and 175gr, now it shoots MOA to sub MOA if I do my part!  Try this ammo or some Black Hills ammo and I think you will be happy with the results.

Don't feed your thoroughbred straw and expect it to excell!

Gizmo:

We sure don't want to hurt some illegal alien's feelings with patriotic support of "OUR" country do we?

Out,

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, USofA!!!! - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 08:29:16 (ZULU) 

Gizmo,

Dude!

  I believe certain specific US Constitutional rights may been violated by that order. Probably your CIVIL RIGHTs too.

Wheres our resident Sniper Barrister - Old Dawg

Bet the "OPSEC" truck has Govt. tags thought right???

 We have standing orders similar to those, and in the immortal words of one grumpy old Sgt. I shoot with - "F&*K'EM!"

Then again whos gonna banally argue this issue with somebody directing traffic with a 5' King snake wrapped around one arm.....

Sheeyet No I aint got no problem with dat flag officah!

Be Safe Folks,

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Candy Wrapper City, BY-Gawd, - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 09:26:28 (ZULU) 

Giz; Your hosed because the vehicles are city owned. IF it was your vehicle in their parking lot it would be somewhat different. If it's something you say it's different especially if your off duty. IF  your're fired for failure to comply with their orders it's not winable. It's damned sad is what it is. Pressure from the public on the City Council and Mayor is the way to go. You are tainted goods now anyway, raise hell in the newspapers and anywhere else off city property but don't name specific bodies or names in print. IF John Q. Don't come to your rescue enjoy your new job.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 12:43:47 (ZULU) 


On winter ops in A'stan:  Willy would have seen how it polled and, if he thought it would give him a bump, would have sent the 82nd and the 101st to icy, pointless deaths.  Dubya is an immeasurably better man.

This link illustrates Bush/Cheny's approach to such measures:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21270-2001Oct31.html

Our ground forces will probably spend the winter training HARD while we systematically use air assets (including choppers) to degrade the OPFOR's capabilities and morale.  Establishing and maintaining communications and supply in those mountains are going to be real problems for them.

We're planning a ground campaign in the spring, and Rumsfelt doesn't care who knows it.  "Over by Christmas" has been bullshit for 2,000 years, and it's bullshit now.  This isn't the drive-thru at Burger King.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/436wwkzj.asp

Update on the air campaign.  B52s, mushroom cloud, scary, scary stuff.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21114-2001Oct31.html

Sounds like a bummer winter for the bad-guys, and the spring doesn't look any better.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
If they want a chance, let 'em go somewhere else. - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 13:17:26 (ZULU) 


Hi Gang,

Got a couple of questions that I am sure someone here can answer.

Am I correct in assuming that two bullets with the same BC at the same velocity, but different weights, will have the same trajectory?  Does the common BC mean that they will both decelerate at the same rate?

What I am debating is this.  I have been shooting the 175MK at about 2680fps and it matches the 30-06 turret of my MK4M3 pretty good.  I thought about trying the Berger 175VLD, but saw that the BC was somewhat higher.  The Berger 168VLD has a BC very similar to the Sierra 175.  Would shooting the 168VLD at the same 2675fps have the same trajectory and thus match the scope turret?

I thought that this would be good if it would work.  Less wear and tear, less recoil, etc....  Not that a 14lb .308 kicks much.

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 13:28:01 (ZULU) 

Steve...

>"Am I correct in assuming that two bullets with the same BC at the same velocity,"<

Yes, and no... "IF" you were comparing a Sierra #1 bullet, with a Sierra #2 bullet, and they both had the same BC, (across the velocity range), they would have the same trajectory, regardless of caliber or weight.

Sierra has an extensive external ballistics studies program because so much of their stuff goes to match shooters, and the military... but other companies just "guestimate" the BC based on the form factors, and it no workie any more.

A Sierra 0.495, is NOT equal to a Berger 0.495, nor is a Hornady 0.495 equal to a Lapua 0.495.  The SAAMI standards for BC are very sloppy, cus no one can agree on anything, so each company flies on it's own.

All the current bullets use G1 formulas (flat base) for flight prediction, even for long boattails, and VLD's, and that's where much of the problem comes in.

Sierra has over come the limitations of the G1, by setting up their own software that takes in account the changes of of BC with changes of velocity, and the limits of G1 formulas at different velocities.

It works!... but you can't plug in a Berger, because they just guess at the BC.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 13:44:38 (ZULU) 

Product Idea Feedback Request:

Hi all, long time no post.  :-)

I have been playing with sewing machines and the like of late and would like some feedback on an idea I have.

From what I understand, the use of heavy weapons as an approach to the  countersniper mission is of grave concern to professional operators.  Having to deal with another guy shooting back with a rifle is stressfull enough, but having to take artillery and mortar fire is a whole other matter again. Yet, the sniper typicaly eshews the use of armor and helmet, not liking the bulk and weight, and the added visual signature of the bulky PASGT helmet in particular.

I have a pattern here to make what is essentialy a soft helmet.  It is inteded to make a waterproof outer, PolarTec lined garment for snowboarders and the like, but I see no reason one could not include enough Kevlar to give it a significant antiballistic capability. One could included a floppy brim, a neck protector, mesh under Kevlar flaps for ventilation and attachment points for netting and G-suit stuff as well. It wont stop bullets, but it would have to be a significant improvement in protection over nothing.

Comments?

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 13:50:20 (ZULU) 

Know how to break up a Taliban Bingo Party!

B........52!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 15:26:43 (ZULU) 


Guys, have a chuckle at this:

Latest news reports that a Terrorist Cell has been operating in and around the City of Bradford, Yorkshire, England.

Police advised earlier today that 3 of the 4 man cell have been detained under the Prevention of Terrorism Act/Immigration Act.

The West Yorkshire Police Commisioner, Sir W.E Sendemhome, stated in a press conference this afternoon, that the Terrorists: Bin Stealin, Bin Drinkin and Bin Fightin are currently being held for questioning, He also advised that the Police Force are having problems locating any one that fits the description of the 4th member of the cell, a Mr Bin Workin, in this area, but that he should be relatively easy to spot within the community because of his unusual appearance, members of the public should report any potential sightings to their local Police Station or call the toll free hotline on the number: 223-762-338-50.

haha Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 15:26:54 (ZULU) 

What do the Taliban and Panty Hose have in common ?

They both irritate Bush....

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 15:34:19 (ZULU) 


What is the official bird of the taliban??

Duck!!!!!!!!!!

S/F

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 15:42:54 (ZULU) 

Finally got the Wind River spotting scope I ordered in mid September.  Quality optics, was looking at the moon last night on 45X and the image was crystal clear over the entire lens.  Never saw all those craters before.  At work today, result was somewhat different.  The images were still crystal clear, but at any magnification over about 30X the mirage was too bad for clear images.  The field of view is also pretty bad at 45X.  May be good for looking for detail at something you saw at lower power.  Will have to see how it works long term.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 16:19:27 (ZULU) 

Anyone have any input regarding the .300 Whisper?  I'm thinking of sending ssk a bolt gun to rebarrel for it.  Any first hand experience, or educated second hand?     Thanks

Rob Olive <rolive7535@aol.com>
- Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 16:37:07 (ZULU) 

Guys, been sick and very busy all at the same time.  CDC you have saved me alot of time looking for stories.  Keep up the good work.

Going through a tough time right now.  I made a handshake deal (as I have with many of you) and the other side got a case of the forgets.  Bottom line is I have to sell off a few things to either pay a lawyer or get the other party off my back.  So you will notice I have posted several items for sale on the emporium.  These are truly great pieces but I need money so they are for sale.  Take a look and talk to me if interested.  Some of you know whats been going on.  I dont want to get into it as I will not badmouth any person or company on here.

Thanks and take care

Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 17:45:36 (ZULU) 

Tom,

Sorry man, bad idea! Let me tell you why:

When you look at the tests performed on modern flak-jackets/bullet proof vests you'll notice that both will "give" quite a lot when hit. This is not bad since your ribs are very flexible and will be able to absorb the energy quite well, since it's spread over a wide area. You'll snap a few ribs in the process, which hurts like hell but won't kill you (I know, I broke mine earlier this year) and it sure beats a puncture wound!

Now your skull is something else. it won't take ANYTHING! It won't take punture wounds well (that figures, no part of the body does), but since it covers your "computer" it doesn't take blunt trauma either and that is why helmets must be hard. It also must provide some stand-off distance between the helmet's inner and your head so some energy can be absorbed by the suspention. Take for instance those Protec helmets currently worn by SpecOps operators. They could be easily made to be bullet-proof but the fact that they fit snugly around the skull would kill you if you ever got hit.

Hope this helped,

Stefan

Stefan <sniperhide@run.to>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 18:51:07 (ZULU) 

STATEMENT OF THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2001/b11012001_bt560-01.html

Guess he got tired of reporters asking why the war wasn't over yet.

Michael A. Litscher <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 19:14:10 (ZULU) 

Stephan:

Yes, I understand the reasons that soft body armor is soft and why helmets are hard, and I understand that such a system would have decided limitations.  Even as a hard helmet the same amount of Kevlar would be useless against direct rifle fire, and a pistol bullet may well kill you via blunt force trauma, true.

But my though was that it could provide fair protection against smaller fragments, secondary missiles and such, and since you have to wear a hat anyway, why not one that can provide a measure of protection?  Hell, we can even put a PolarFleece liner in it and it would be a good cold weather hat.

Isnt a cracked skull better than one with a hole in it?  At least your spotter would have something worthy of dragging to saftey...

It all just a thought exercise...

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 21:21:52 (ZULU) 


Sinister:  Krauthammer is a grown-up who knows that wars are long and difficult.  But he has been around Washington long enough to see when military objectives are being interfered with by political and diplomatic considerations.  His intention was to keep us focused on supporting our military's effort to do whatever is necessary to WIN THE WAR FIRST.

When confronted with his and John McCain's statements, Rumsfeldt said that they were making positive contributions by preparing the American people for what this war will entail, which will probably include a large scale ground operation.

Charles Krauthammer is one of the very few influential columnists that is on YOUR side.  He always has been.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no foolin' around. - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 21:36:09 (ZULU) 

Howdy.  I'm new to this board.  I am interested in tactical shooting, though I am neither a LE officer nor still in the military.  I did 10+2 years in the Army National Guard as a helicopter mechanic in an attack helicopter unit (Blackhawks, Apaches, and Scouts).

My "sniper" rifle is a Savage 10fp tactical in a Choate "Ultimate Sniper" stock.  I have a Leupold Vari-X II 3x9x40 on it, and am leaning seriously towards having Leupold converting it to the 3x9x40 Tactical with the addition of the target knobs and a mil-dot reticle.  I know it's not going to be as good as a lot of other, real tactical scopes, but seeing as I already have the Vari-X II 3x9x40 and converting it costs $218, which is less than buying any real tactical scope, I think I'm going to do it.

I have by now fired 300-400 rounds through this rifle, almost 200 of which were surplus British assault rifle ammo (not very accurate), and the last around 180 of which have been handloads.  The handloads haven't been played around with much, and in fact around half were not match bullets.  The first handloads were 165 gr flat-based soft points, because I had them on hand.  The next batch were Sierra 168 gr. Matchkings.  Both loads have shot very, very well by my standards.  I'm no rifle expert by any means, so getting around half my groups at 200 yards into around 1.5-1.75" was downright amazing to me.  I know that the other half that were greater than 2" were all my inexperience showing.  The powder charge also wasn't very consistent (very long extruded granules of IMR 4064 going through a Dillon powder measure).

In the future I intend to throw a 41.5 grain charge and then trickle out the rest, bringing it to precisely 42.0 grains.

Anyhow, I just wanted to make a comment to let you all know I've "joined" the list here.  I hope to read many of the comments and post from time to time.  I live in New Hampshire.

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 22:01:50 (ZULU) 

Sethbag..... welcome! If you're bound and determined to convert your Vari-X II, send it to Premier Reticles www.premierreticles.com, the    ONLY way to go for Leupold conversions (they make the Mil-Dot). There are lots of reasons not to go with the Vari-X II for your purposes. The II series is a full generation behind in optics, mechanicals, etc. and in 2002 will be discontinued, making it way behind the current lineup. But I don't want to piss in your Cornflakes - have Premier do your work or let them sell you a new Leupold. Anyone on the Roster will second that!

HTH, ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 22:41:33 (ZULU) 

Sethbag... don't put money into that scope... it's a low end hunting scope, and no mater how much you put into it, it will never make the grade, and you will wind up with a bastard child that no one wants.

Sell it on eBay, and get something that will last the course.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 23:16:49 (ZULU) 

I think I'd go for the Helmet. There's always the case of the glancing blow.

Where the hell is the Kraut? Did you guys "REALLY"  piss him off?

I can't believe it! Not a word since. Geee's, He's probably taken up with a goat and livin in a cave with Bin Ladin next door! Get your butt back here, we can't win this war without some help. We'll send you to the Russian front if you don't show up!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 00:04:25 (ZULU) 

Here's Osama's bid to take over Pakistan.  Note that he's so fearful of our technology that he woun't use the 'Osama cam' for fear of us tracking it's radiation.

I thank Allah for his fear!

HA!

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$4BWI2XQAADXO5QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/02/wbin02.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/02/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Payback's a m**********r, when you piss off the, UUU-ESSSSS-AAAAAAAA!!! - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 01:52:21 (ZULU) 

Thanks guys.

After reading Alan's remark before driving home from work I thought about my scope most of the way home.  I decided this really is a case of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  Not that any Leupold scope can be compared to a sow's ear, after all even a Vari-X II makes a damn fine hunting or general purpose scope.

Ever since I first read about the Leupold 3.5x10 LRT M3 (the version with the bullet drop compensator) in a Sniper Country review I've known that that was the scope I eventually want my gun to wear.  I just can't afford the $750 price tag.

My thinking on converting the Vari-X II was that since I already have it, $218 would get me more of a sniper scope by converting it than I could get buy paying $218 for something new.  And I figured I could be happy with it for a while till I could someday afford the LRT M3.

But I've changed my mind.  Yeah, converting it would give me more of a sniper scope than I have now, but I don't really *need* a sniper scope now.  Not that I ever need one, really, since I'm not a real sniper, but I figure I'll just use the Vari-X II on my gun, and learn how to shoot my rifle well, and eventually I'll get the LRT M3.  Till then the Vari-X II will put a crosshair over whatever paper targets I shoot, and I'm sure it will do its job well.

What other scopes, cheaper than a Leupold 3.5x10 LRT M3, can you guys recommend that use a bullet-drop compensator?

What I'll probably end up doing with the couple hundred clams is buy a Dillon AT-500 press.  My own reloading press right now is an RCBS Partner Press, but I haven't used it in a long time.  My brother is a Dillon dealer, and he has two 650s and two 550s set up.  Yeah, one of each for large primers, and one for small.  So far I've loaded up all my .308 rounds (only a couple hundred so far) at his place, plus all the pistol ammo (thousands).

I figure the AT-500 is just about as perfect a setup as you could wish to start with for loading high-grade rifle ammo.  You definitely need to buy the real .308 conversion kit, it's the absolute cheapest upgrade to the AT-500 that gets you the most bang for the buck.  And I'd want the thing that kicks out the finished cartridge into an Accro Bin.  But I don't really *want* a Dillon powder throw.  I'd rather have a powder throw on the side and throw most of the charge into the pan of an electronic scale, and then just trickle the last couple tenths of a grain to make sure you get it right, and pour it down the funnel that comes with the AT-500.  And for doing a couple hundred rifle rounds I don't mind feeding primers by hand.

And yet you get the full advantage of having a four-stage progressive press, and it's pretty cheap, comparatively speaking.  And I won't have to deal with the fact that the three times I've gone over to my bro's house to reload .308 my die head is not on the press, and he's reset the powder measure (which has a hard time measuring IMR 4064 truly accurately anyhow) for some other round, etc. etc. etc.

Any comments?

Seth

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 02:38:36 (ZULU) 

Hey, Winter's coming to us up North (New Hampshire), and I've been wondering about powders.

My brother, in response to my complaint that the Dillon powder throw wasn't accurate to less than around .5 - .7 grains when using IMR 4064, which has wicked long extruded granules, suggested that I try a much stubbier powder.

He said that Varget is probably a lot stubbier, and hence would feed more reliably through the Dillon powder throw.  I've never used Varget.

I thought I read someplace that Varget is less temperature sensitive than 4064.  What importance should I place on this?  I've only just started loading .308 really, just one can of IMR 4064 so far, but I'd like to buy an 8 lb keg of it soon, and if I decide to go with something else I'll need to figure that out soon.  Plus with Winter coming my shooting opportunities are rapidly growing fewer and fewer.

Any comments?

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 02:42:53 (ZULU) 


sethbag,

VARGET and M3's???

thou hast opened the door, of the room, in the building, on the block, that has the store, that sells the secret to successful shooting (At least if you listen to this bunch,,,, as I do).

You wouldn't wanna talk about Moly tomorrow would ya???

BTW, I still measure my loads with a dipper but, I really like Varget.  It burns clean, shoot good and smells nice when your loading it.... No downside that I can see...

FatBoy...

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Happiness is one Ragged Hole, or a Bucket of Fried Chicken ;-), Midd-Tenn, - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 03:15:00 (ZULU) 

Seth; You might want to save a little money on the loader and put it into the scope. A Rock Chucker will load fast enough on rifle loads. And yes, I think VARGET is worth it in New Hampshire. Be sure you got plenty of Primer. I would use Winchester or CCI as opposed to Federal or work a load with Magnum Primers. Correct Ignition is often overlooked. Some folk think a Mag primer is not condusive to accuracy but it depends on the powder and temperature goes down up north.Although the powder stays with you it needs good send off.  VARGET goes through a measure OK but you really should measure all your charges. Another reason you don't need a progressive loader really. The 4.5X14X40 Leupold @ about $550 to $600 with Mil Dot's isn't too bad on cost and will probably perform as well as anything else with a lot of come up range without buying real high priced mounts. IF you take most of your shots under 400 yards you may not need the Mil Dots for what you do.

The Sheperd is the next best thing to a long range scope and costs $550. It's faster and easier to use than MIl Dots. The Glass is better than  you'd think or hear around. It's not a Leupold but the ease of operation makes up for some other deficiencies and the zero doesn't move. It can be used in the same manner as Mil Dots if you want to get scientific. I don't like the company's attitude but it will do you better in a hunting situation most of the time.

Get lots of opinion before you decide though. This is just one.

Don't skimp too much on glass.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 03:43:43 (ZULU) 

Gents,

Here's one for the Ballistics Gurus. Last night during a pursuit that turned fatal(1 bad guy, 1 regular guy) mention was made of me taking a shot at the suspect because I was the only Deputy in a passenger seat in any unit, and I generally shoot a 118-120 on the post course. The distance would have been approximately 8 feet, and the wind speed was 120 mph. The little speedometer told me so. The suspects vehicle was to my 3:00. I carry a H&K usp .45 full size with Winchester 230gr JHP boolets. While 8 feet or so is not a very great distance,120 mph winds are fairly extreme and .45 has never been known for it's blinding speed. My question is what kind of hold for wind, if any, should be used? I would have had to punch through a side window as well. I was figuring around 1 inch, but that is my own version of Kentucky Windage. Any help, as usual, will be greatly appreciated, Thanks.

Chase Temple <istu9946@selu.edu>
Hammond, LA, 70403 - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 04:00:44 (ZULU) 

Sethbag,

As Chris said...Hallejluh brother you have seen the light!! According to this bunch of Hogs anyway! Yep can't go wrong with M3 LR and Va..Var...Varg... oh Hell VARGET. Don't pay me too much attention this bunch has been trying to convert me to Varget for a couple years now and they have just about succeeded! At least I've bought some and have reloaded a few 175's, which I'll be doing more of this coming week!

OK Hogs stand by for a review...may take a few weeks on what I'll call:

"The Mini-Rock" or "Rock Jr." or "Son of Rock"! Oh..."Son of Rock" I like that one... from George Gardner!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 04:02:03 (ZULU) 

Chase..... Let's see.... Both vehicles @120mph, driving parallel with each other, you are in passenger seat of car on left, which puts you at 3'oclock to target. Am I right so far? If so, I believe that no lead is required. The bullet exits your vehicle going the same speed as target's vehicle negating need for leading him.

As far as shooting through glass is concerned, well you know how damned unpredictable that is, although flat, thin sidewindow glass is nowhere as bad as a curved windshield. I remember reading a study of this somewhere, and the author mentioned the tendency for the bullet to veer off to the high side when striking glass at 90*, but this is second hand information at best!

HTH,  ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 05:34:22 (ZULU) 

Sinister,

Just caught your post on the 700PSS .300RUM - I kinda like mine too.

 The .300 RUM round is SOOOOOO versatile, it doubles as a Judo stick, a place to "tie off" a 30 inch length of 550 cord, a fish billy, trot line weight, firestarter, etc. etc.

 oops - I also makes a great rapid transit vehicle for somebody my size when fired!

Varget - Did someone say VARGET?

Be Safe guys!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 09:53:20 (ZULU) 


First Pashtun uprising against Taliban.  This keeps the internal opposition to the Taliban from being too closely associated with the non-Pahtuns in the Northern Alliance.  This may be very good news.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27306-2001Nov1.html

Big push up North is coming very soon.  Taliban defections.  (The B52s DO get your attention) We're getting bases in Armenia and Aberjawan (?) to use in case Pakistan goes South.  Good sitrep.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27280-2001Nov1.html

US uses B52s to pound Taliban field HQ near Kabul.  "Too many explosions to count.".."..strikes were reported overnight at the Taliban's southern headquarters of Kandahar.."  And a little about the "mushroom cloud."  No break for Ramadan.

http://wire.ap.org/?SLUG=ATTACKS%2dAFGHANISTAN

VERY nontechnical discussion of winter ops.  We're not taking a break because we don't need to.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011102-98885728.htm

The infiltration through Pakistan is turning into a problem.

LPs, OPs, and air support?  Maybe overlapping fire-bases?

Undude:  I hate to hear it.  Make sure they get good homes.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 12:05:41 (ZULU) 

Chase--

Given your position, your 'target' is at 12:00 and you have a 120 mph full value wind at 8'.  The 45 puts the boolet on target in about 0.008888888 sec.  Not much time for the wind to effect. How staedy you are able to hold on is another thing.

What geographical are you from. In my area we'd be hung out to dry regardless of how the shoot ended, good or bad. Shoot the perp at 120 mph with or without innocent in car & you have an uncontrolled missle going where?  Sounds like way bad juju to me.

You say --mention was made--. Was that for real consideration or just that, talk? I'd be interested to see your dept policy on that.

just my $0.02

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 12:36:01 (ZULU) 

Ref: Sniper Matches

The whole idea of “sniper” matches is relatively new.  I was active in “combat” pistol matches when that idea was new and I’m seeing some similarities.

Originally “combat” pistol shooting was intended to be “practical” and this practicality was meant to provide a training experience in each match and it was hoped that through competition better, more combat worthy equipment and tactics would be developed.

As we all know that’s not what happened in IPSC style shooting.  The desire to win took over and in time the scenarios became less and less realistic and the equipment mutated into game-winning machines rather than better combat-pistols.

This evolution occurred because there was little understanding of the principles and purposes of such matches and the organizers and active competitors changed the “game” to suit their own agendas.  Likewise the desire to “get big” and strive for “legitimacy” sold out what ever remained of the original idea.

If we’re not careful the same thing will happen in our “sniper” matches.  Let me illustrate.

When a sniper shoots it’s from a cold bore.  Whether that sniper is police or military that first round is the one that counts.  Are there instances in combat when a sniper might get the chance to fire a number of rounds and adjust?  Yes, I suppose so but that would be the exception not the rule.  A sniper match should place emphasis on the cold bore shot and provide incentive on the part of the shooters to develop equipment that can perform that mission.  In the matches I’ve attended this has not even been addressed.

Related to the cold bore issue is the idea that shooters at sniper matches be allowed to confirm zero and collect firing data on the range prior to the match starting.   Operationally a sniper will be required to deploy with his SWS trusting that he has equipment that will maintain zero and that he can adjust for changes in meteorological conditions in his new area of operation.  To allow zero and dope collection on match day does nothing to motivate the shooters to build systems that can perform operationally and will eventually lead to the evolution of match guns rather than sniper rifles.

A sniper must carry his SWS and all support equipment over distances and obstacles.  This means that the weight and size of a SWS and support equipment must be a compromise between accuracy and lightweight.  Some degree of simulation should be integrated into sniper matches to keep the SWS from becoming a match gun unsuitable for use in the field.  I don’t believe the solution is to place weight limits but rather require the shooter to carry his gear enough that he is forced to take this factor into consideration.

The target of a sniper is a human being.  This is a fact which is repulsive to some and it results in a degree of denial.  Either for convenience or out of a sense of political correctness targets being used in sniper matches too often fail to resemble a person in either shape or scale.  If we are to maximize the training value of a sniper match then the targets need to resemble those that might be engaged operationally (people).  A sniper needs the shape and size to be predictable so he can become familiar with the sight picture he will see in combat.  Dots, diamonds, triangles, T-boxes and reduced size silhouettes fail to provide the sniper with a realistic reference for indexing his cross hairs and reduce the training value of the match.  If the intent of a stage of fire is to measure close range precision then reduce the amount of the target exposed.  Don’t require the shooter to engage an irrelevant geometric shape.

Can a sniper expect to engage targets with rapid fire?  I think so.  This skill should be tested in a sniper match.  However if the test is to require more that the average number of rounds normally contained in a common SWS (5) then we begin to test the sniper’s ability to rapid reload.  Is this a meaningful exercise?  Yes.  Too much emphasis on this kind of shooting can however lead to the evolution of equipment away from the typical sniper rifles of today toward semiautomatic box fed rifles.  Will this change result in equipment better suited for use in combat?  I don’t know.  A balance of tests needs to be maintained so the advantage of one type of equipment is not overemphasized.

Unknown distance shooting is the stock and trade of a sniper.  This type of shooting should be the bulk of any sniper match.  In order for this to be a realistic test the targets should be of the type and size discussed above.  If this is not possible then some item of know size should be provide in the proximity of the target to allow the sniper to exercise his ability to range the target using his mil-dots.

Reading the wind is a critical skill of the sniper.  Range flags will not be present on the battlefield.  There should be not flags of any type visible from the firing line.

A sniper must master many skills besides marksmanship.  Any sniper match should test some of these other skills and aggregate the sniper’s performance with his marksmanship scores.  This will force the competitor to develop some of the other skills necessary.  Target detection exercises, Kim’s games, range estimation exercises, land navigation, stalking and physical fitness tests should be part of the overall match and should be equally balanced with the marksmanship tests.  This integration would be a better measure of a sniper and without it the sniper match is just another rifle match.

These are only my opinions and I don’t expect everyone to agree.  I would welcome an open dialog on this subject.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 12:58:47 (ZULU) 

Hmm.

Well I had just decided that I would stick with the IMR 4064, and I even responded as such to several roster folks offline, but after reading the last several posts I think I may just have to go buy another can of IMR 4064 and a can of Varget and let them have a face-off.

As for the reloading press, yeah I realize a Rock Chucker'd be fine for loading rifle rounds not shot in great quantity.  That being said, I also shoot 9mm, .40 SW, .223 (which I hate to reload...), 6.5x55, .357 Mag, some .45 ACP (though I don't have one, my bro does).  I cast my own lead bullets for 9mm, .40SW, .45 ACP, .357 Mag, and even 6x5x55.  When I load .40, .357 or 9mm I like to do it en masse.  Nothing beats a Dillon for that.  Currently I go use a 650 or 550 at my brother's house (as I mentioned, he's a Dillon dealer, so he has lots of stuff) for pistol rounds, but I wanna get the AT500 so I can be doing my own .308s on it now, and eventually ween myself off my brother's presses and upgrade my own AT500 to a full-fledged RL550B, or something in between, as my preferences and finances allow.

For someone who values their time, I think starting with the AT-500 simply cannot be beat.

I'm definitely not going to upgrade my Vari-X II now.  I'm definitely going to get the Lupy M3 LRT, but not this month, or next, or the one after that...  But it will happen.

I suppose one of the first things I need to do is buy a new chronograph.  My brother and I accidentally executed his Shooting Chrony several years ago out in Utah.  The remains are buried in my parents' basement out there.  I suppose we could get them to send them to Shooting Chrony for a replacement.  I think instead I'll just buy my own.

Thanks for the comments.

One more comment.  So far, in the limited shooting I've done with my Savage, I noted it was far easier for me to get really stable while lying prone on the ground than it was on concrete.  The front bipod sorta digs in and provides some resistance on dirt, and my elbows also seem to be easier to hold steady on the dirt than on concrete (or rather, on a folded up wool blanket spread out over the concrete so I don't hurt my poor elbows).  Any suggestions?  I have no idea how to shoot prone correctly with this gun, I'm just laying down and doing what seems natural.

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 13:05:05 (ZULU) 


salom to you all

ned sam info on m 144  spotting scope ?

thanks

avi

avi <raviv@dalia.org.il>
haifa, israel - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 13:06:55 (ZULU) 

Pat:   10th SFG Sniper Match.   I received a few replys from SOTIC guys on the SF List and I will send that info to you later this afternoon.   It appears it is strickly along military lines and issued gear must be used by all teams.   I've heard it is one of the best matches.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 13:35:19 (ZULU) 

Kevin; You seem to have covered it all.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 13:50:10 (ZULU) 

Seth; I cross my left hand almost under my chest and hold the stock against my right shoulder with thumb on the body side and fingers on the bolt side. This allows a lower position and more ground support.

I use the same thing on the bench with the same bipod settings. Or a Jeep hood. If there's an impact shift I can't detect it. Magnum Rifles may require a forward hold to keep it down but a .308 doesn't.

The rifle is actually aimed by the left hand. When the shot goes off the hand holds the butt steady against the shoulder.

You don't have to reach forward sometimes stressing arm and shoulder  and the bipod shift is less since you aren't weighting the rifle it seems more consistent to me. I'm pretty stocky so this might now work for everyone.  Try it for stability.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 14:00:51 (ZULU) 

Good article by former Reagan National Security Advisor on CIA lack of expertise in current A'stan ops.  It also describes current political situation on the ground.

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95001406

Bin laden is hunkering in a cave trying to rally the masses by hand-written note because he is scared of us targeting his video camera.  He's cowering in a hole while squeaking to anyone who'll listen to seek Paradise by way of cluster-bomb.

That's got to be real inspirational.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Stay in your hole, O fearless one. - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 14:17:53 (ZULU) 

Tony Y.

   Thanks Tony, appreciate that!! Rick sent me some info on it also. Sounds like they like to mix things up.(HA)

Kevin,

  Well said, other than the stocking go to the D&L shoot in Wyoming. You carry ULU)ything you want or need the targets are not man shaped but represent the killing zone in size and one shot is what you get at unknown distances out to 1000+ yards. Shoot up and down hill, across draws and within the same spot you will have four different ranges and 4 different wind calls. The Army boys think its the best training they can get for a match and keep sending more and more shooters to it.

  The thing you left out is you need to limit the caliber to 308 period. Other wise it gets to be the caliber that gives the edge not the shooter. Most of the shooters out there are damn tough shooters and the difference is many times in the equiptment. However this last year a M-24 shot by a NG guard sniper took home all the goodies even from the pros who were so damn close it was scarry. I think they had a jam with their auto on one course so ate some rounds or it might have been different.

  I agree though that you need to keep it practical. High dollar equiptment has killed practical pistol shooting and will do the same thing to tactical shooting.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 14:26:19 (ZULU) 

Bad politics within our defense establishment.  The last few days look different:

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/111201/kaplan111201.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 14:39:56 (ZULU) 

Hogs,

I was wondering if any of you have reloaded Nosler 180BT for 300WMag.

Going hunting in a couple of weeks and looking to use N 180's.

Thanks.

Bryan

Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 15:16:59 (ZULU) 

Bergers???

I have used Bergers in my 300WM in the past and been pleased with the results, however my dealer has told me that the quality of Bergers has been suspect of late and recommended using Lapua Scenars.  Any comments on Bergers and/or Scenars would be much appreciated.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 15:40:21 (ZULU) 


KEVIN:  Great post on the sniper match topic.  First of all, I gotta say that I have absolutely no military experience whatsoever. The Military type Sniper match and the Police type Sniper match are two totally different games just as the real jobs the guys perform are two totally different missions.  As the world's peacekeepers, the missions have grown more and more similiar but by and large, they are still different. For what it's worth, I've been at the cop game for thirteen years.  Sniper/team leader for eleven of those.  At the bigger events designed specifically for LE, the Mil guys are always invited as well.  The competitors are required to bring their duty rifles usually limited to .300 WM as far as max. caliber.  I've seen many US Army Snipers show up with Reed Knight rifles or M24s/Leup M3s.  They don't usually do as well as the cops with 1/4 min. scopes IN THESE EVENTS.  These are usually 300 yard and in matches, quick paced, precision events.  One click on the M3 scopes many times puts them off the X when shooting at an eyeball on a target.  Body shots don't win the day like the longer distance matches.  The guys are required to sometimes make contorted position,hostage rescue shots, under the clock, with punishment for a miss or hit on a hostage, using communication and teamwork, usually with a partner.  The cold bore shot is stressed heavily.  The military guys are fantastic shots but their equipment is just set up for the longer distance stuff they are more likely to encounter as a Special Forces Troop. I made great friends with two guys from 5th Grp SF at Sniperweek 2000.  I didn't have a rent car and they toted me around all week (God bless 'em).  They came in dead assed last out of 34 Teams. They had gun trouble on top of everything else and were kind of hanging their heads after day one because those guys ain't used to losing - AT ANYTHING !!! I told 'em "Look fellas, turn this thing around. Throw a cop out of a plane, wearing oxygen, tell him to fly 30 miles or so this way, land safely, (they were already nodding their heads at this point) hump fifteeen clicks, make a 7-900 yard shot in the wind and get home before the mortars start falling.  Most cops can't begin to do that kind of thing.  I then added, We as cops on the other hand may get paged in the middle of the night or out of a church pew, throw on our gear, grab our rifles out of the trunk of a car and make a VERY FAST OR LOOOOOOONG waited hostage rescue shot on a probably stressed out, moving target in the middle of a crowded city street or neighborhood, usually in less than ideal lighting with no NODs and shitty commo. And, we are responsible for every single thing the bullet touches, living or otherwise.  A miss in the MIL means two guys learned a lesson.  If you hit TWO hey that's a bonus.  A miss in LE USUALLY means at least one life and most probably a family, career and the mental health of the shooter is history.  I have heard many blast Sniperweek and other police related events.  Borrowing a line from Sinister Dave - Most need to "shut their pie holes" because they haven't been there.  These events are designed for cops.  They aren't touted as anything else.  They are good, mission specific events.  They are well run and realistic as far as they can be but they ARE NOT long distance shooting matches.  STOP.  Gotta go eat.  It's the LTs b-day and the division is taking him out.

. . . To be continued.  Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 15:55:04 (ZULU) 


Bryan,

I have used Nosler 180gr BT in my 300 and have been very pleased with the results.  As for loads, I was using H4831SC and CCI magnum primers(any comments on the powder would be welcome guys).  Obviously it is of little use telling you my load as it may not suit your rifle, so SOP applies and work up your load with the help of manuals.

Performance wise on animals, they kill quickly and cleanly, especially on the larger deer; inuys)that means sika, fallow and red with sika stags weighing 100-135lbs and red 175-280+lbs (clean weight).  On smaller animals (i.e. roe deer, weighing 22-40lb clean) there tends to be a large amount of carcase damage as they are not as tough and less able to hold together under hydrostatic shock (least thats what I think!!). Mind you most of my shots are within 150yds, so if you are shooting further out it should be less of a problem.

Hope this has helped.

All the best on your trip.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 16:00:27 (ZULU) 

Yeah, I guess you could tune that 3.587615mhz color oscillator frequency. Probably not too much going on in Afganistan on that Freq.

or the 15,750 hz horizontal sweep rate. Dead giveaway in Cave country! We could launch some 3.587615 seeking Tomahawks but it might take out the drug store!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 16:29:42 (ZULU) 

Brian..

   You hit the nail on the head. The only match I was ever at that filled both jobs equally was the Hornady match. It was a 4 day shoot and had shooting problems that took in both disiplens equally. It was a great shoot but was 4 days long.

 It was very evident that the police were set up for the close precision shots and the military boys were into the long range and movers. Equal points were given for both and the big points were for cold bores, once again close precison ones and then long unknown distance ones.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 16:37:42 (ZULU) 


I, for one, am very glad that McCain and Krauthammer didn't "shut thier pie hole's".  Rumsfeld THANKED Krauthammer for SUPPORTING Rumsfeld's desire to pursue the war aggressively.

The Operations Research/Game Theory types who made thier way to the top under our former Chicken-Choker-in-Chief are trying to turn the war into a zero-risk network optimization problem.

It didn't work when the clueless Ivy Leaguers led by Robert MacNamera tried it and it won't work now. My lack of faith in such techniques is the product of the fact that I UNDERSTAND AND CAN APPLY THOSE ALGORITHMS.  They don't work on problems this complex.

It looks like we are finally hitting Taliban/Al Queda forces hard enough to kill them and to get the fence-sitter's attention.  Rumsfeld said that we are putting enough FOs on the ground to hit them much harder yet.  Those results are directly related to the criticism that was leveled at the lackadasical way the war was being pursued.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 17:01:52 (ZULU) 

Given the excellent discussion just started by Kevin, is it better to zero for the cold bore shot or to know your rifle/load well enough to hold off for it?  Is the answer different from a police vs. military perspective?

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 17:04:36 (ZULU) 

Pat:   4 day Hornady match with mixed bag shooting.  Where do I sign.  Hell make it 5 days and add a stalk.  Hope it's open to all.

Don:   Know your equipment and how your cold bore shoots at various distances and conditions.  Always record it and swear by it.   That's the trouble with us civi's, we always are getting new toys and never mastering one.

Gooch:   All this talk about matches!!  What's on the agenda for next year?
 
 

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 17:20:03 (ZULU) 


. . . back from lunch.  Carne Guisada, Pico deGallo, strawberry La Brisa (ice cream) Mmmmmmmmmm. God bless Texas.

DAN: Hey brother, no flame at all.  I just liked the line Sinister used and promptly stole it.  The pie hole reference had me LMAO.  I don't really even know the story on the Kraut/McCain/Rumsfeld scenario and wasn't really referencing that situation, just the remark.  "Pie hole" will stick with me.  Thanks for keeping us updated on the current stuff in Afghaniland.  Profuse apologies if you took it wrong.

. . . back to business.  My "City" rifle is a Varmint synthetic with a MK 4 M1 w/ mil dots, MK 4 mounts, factory tube.  It shoots true half minute, bedded, torqued up, and with a little trigger work. But ... the cold bore is a little over an inch different than subsequent shots.  Thought it was just me for a while but one of my boys took it to a school and had the same problem - 'bout drove him nuts.  I have been leaving it dirty and it works.  However, I don't neccessarily like doing this.  I live on the Texas Gulf Coast.  I watch it close because I don't want the humidity to get to it and moisture flock to the crap in the bore.  My guys rifles, a PSS and two older woodstocked but bedded Varmints shoot better than half minute and the cold bores never vary from the subsequent shots clean or dirty.  Houston PD has a bunch of Snipers assigned to their Tactical Team.  I understand that about half of their rifles shoot the same, clean or dirty, cold bore or not and for the others they clean and fire four or five fouling shots before they put it up after a practice session.  I am currently having my 26" tube taken off and a 20" Hart/Tubb lug installed on the city gun.  I don't like the cold bore being different from the rest of the shots.  Personally, when I take "Mother Theresa" out of the case, I want to know exactly where the first bullet is going,  hopefully followed by the rest of 'em (if they are needed).  Hopefully, the new barrel will solve the problem.  I don't want to have to think about holding off etc.  Shit just happens too fast sometimes and besides I'm kinda dumb.  One less thing to think about.  SWAT is like a box of chocolates . . .

Besides the fact that I have this thing about hitting exactly where I am aiming, we shoot the FBI Qual course for record which has a 1.5" cranial vault target zone.  The first shot is a cold bore shot.  Miss it and you're done for that qual.  End of story.  Also, you had better have a damn good reason for the CO why you missed.  Furthermore, barring the problem actually being the rifle itself, you are relegated to an Observer pending the next qualification and you get your freaking shiite together. The target is a human face and the target zone is not definable at 100 yds.  Each officer keeps the targets in his own personal file.  I realize 1.5" is pretty large at 100 but hey, stuff happens.  Being the astute sniper student that I am and further being that there is such a variance in my cold bore, allowing for the fact that I might misread the light a little and added to the fact ize I just plain can't shoot for shit, I do not want a missed qual target in my file for some friggin lawyer to torture me with on the stand someday.  We are zeroed and shoot out to (classified) when we can.  However, our bread and butter is 300 and in.  I do not recall a (succesful) hostage rescue shot taken by a police sniper over about 250 anywhere.  The cold bore is everything.

You may only get one. It better be right.

My 2

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 18:12:15 (ZULU) 

Tony,

   They only had it the one year and I sure wish they would have somemore. It was only open to LE & Military. They "Did" have a stalk over a half mile long. My rear was dragging too. The SF instructor who tought stalking for the sniper school that had just graduated gave all of us civilians a class on camo and stalking one night it was great!! He stalked in a pair of jeans and a BDU top with a boonie hat that he camoed up. He was good and knew his business, said the only thing you need is a good head cover thats all that comes out of the weeds anyway.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 18:33:14 (ZULU) 


M40A1 Unertl scope BDC?

I have seen unertl scope in pictures only, the elevation turret has two dials stacked on top of each other.  I have heard that they work better (different) than the leupold BDC's.

Can anyone tell me how the BDC actually works, how is it different from conventional BDC's, what is the value for each click in elevation and windage?

I have never used a BDC scope before, mainly because it seems that the 100 yd increments are to general and would lead to inaccuracy.

Any thought for or against BDC's in general are greatly appreciated.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
SLC, UT, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 20:07:25 (ZULU) 

For a good laugh check out the following site:

http://www.deadarab.com

Enjoy

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 20:20:12 (ZULU) 

Loaded 9 rds of 168 last night before noticing the scale was set WAY LOW.  At the end of today's practice I shot all 9 off-hand and came home to clean 'er.  Uaually takes 12-24 hrs for Butch's to soak all the copper out of to barrel, but today she was rds bbed clean in an hour!!!

DID THOSE LIGHT LOADS CLEAN THE BORE????

Urban Teacher <urbantchr@aol.com>
MD, US - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 20:51:49 (ZULU) 

Kevin-agree with many of your points, but the pressure of competition is as close as we can frequently come to the pressure of THE REAL S@#T.  Gooch did a piece here on the benefits of competition.  There's still value in IPSC so long as you don't get interested in trying to win things.  The last year I completed I did it with a S&W 5906 (close as I was willing to come to our 1006 duty pistol) and still legitimately beat some people with space guns.  The guy that ran the FBI R&D at the time was doing the same thing with a Glock.

I can see allowing the guys who had to subject their SWS to the gorillas in baggage handling.  When I flew a lot, I saw at least one suitcase get crushed by the hydraulic gadget that put the baggage bins in the plane.  Matter of fact, I had a specially built bag with a forged steel frame destroyed by Eastern.  Never did figure out how they did that.

Question:  What do some of you use as a spotter scope stand for matches?  Put the new scope on a tripod and discovered it's at least 4 inches too high.  I'm sitting at work plotting on how to build something since all the short tripods I see are about the same 9-10 inch height.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 21:12:03 (ZULU) 

Sethbag:

Save your money and buy the M3 if that is the one you choose.  Don't scrimp on the glass, you will be sorry for a long time.  I have a Shepard scope on a .223, it will shoot 0.75 in groups at 100yd but at 400yd the groups are sub MOA but not on the bullseye.  The Shepard scope is designed for hunting and if you hit in the 18 in circle that is all they are concerned with.  The glass is clear but I'm not sure of the durability of the scope, I have only had it for a short time.

Other people on this site have had problems with their customer service, I can tell you they are slow to answer E-mails. I had to call them to get answers for my questions.

I have had good luck with the M3 on my .308. The glass is clear the BDC gets you close and you just have dial it in for your load.

The Varget is a stick powder and it does not meter any better than any other stick powder.  I am working up a load for my stick now. I got a 1 in group at 100yd on my first attempt.

out,

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, USofA!!!! - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 21:33:28 (ZULU) 

A bit on our current bombing.  This includes some informed speculation concerning the transition to conventional ground ops.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-miller110201.shtml

When the FOs get back they'll have some wild stories.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 21:40:01 (ZULU) 

TonyM; your assessment is about the same as mine on the Sheperd but we have had several and no failures yet, but there are horror stories. I recommend you buy them from a Reputable handler like Cabellas where their warranty will take over if need be.  They are supposed to be within 1 moa for the prescribed loads but the .223 is only good to 500. Beyond that it's off scale. It is probably possible by chronographing to beat the 18" circle but probably not the 1 MOA. The secret seems to be to sight in a 500 and accept the error both ways from there. A powder change can also affect it so there you go again. MY Rifle of serious purpose has a Mil Dot. My .223 shoots MOA or better out to 500 but the bottom of the 18" circle @ 600 is impact point. We have a 30-06 that shoots right on way out to 800 but it's exceptional. Anyone looked at that Burris Combo Mil-dot and Compensator reticle. Depending... that could be a nice set up. You would have the accuracy of the mil dots+ the quickness of the hold over without having to dial and put up with towering turrets.

Price is Leupoldish. I think we will see more variation of this as I think Sheperd's patent has possibly timed out! The 1 MOA marks on top and sides of a Sheperd can be used to estimate range mil-dot fashion if the object is too large or small for the 18" circles. You know what I like the best about Sheperds they are fast even on a running target you can tell right away what circle fits and get a reasonable shot off. I shot at a dog the other day at 600 yards bookin it hard.

The circle popped right up and the bullet went right between his back legs. I would have been hard pressed to get anywhere near that close with a Mil Dot in the time I had. No Cigar but nice try!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Friday, November 2, 2001, at 21:58:27 (ZULU) 

The comic journey of some dumb-ass English Moslem who went to A'stan to fight us.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001380013-2001381446,00.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, November 2, 2001, at 22:45:43 (ZULU) 

Bill R:

A friend has a Burris scope that he sent back to the factory and had them change the reticle to the mildot/bullet compensator one. I think he said they charged him $120.00 and that included the shipping. He shot it last Saturday for the first time. I did notice the ranging dots were smaller than the mildots. Will keep you posted as to how well it works out.

out,

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, USofA!!!! - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 01:19:48 (ZULU) 

Kevin, I couldn't agree with you more.

First ran into this when taking a course, and asked the guy about flunking students.  He gave me a truthful answer.  "It's not like the military, Dave.  These people are paying to come here."

If it's a competition, and cash or a prize of value, there have to be rules.

Real world, real combat, no rules.  Winner take all.  Loser dies.

No one will ask if your McMillan M86 was too heavy, or 700 LTR couldn't reach 900 yards, or your scope over-magnified, or you didn't know how to read mirage or wind angle off of asphalt roofing, or you got tired and missed your one and only shot, or there are lots of bad guys returning fire with crew-served weapons and you can't load an internal five-round magazine fast enough (because you've never done it), or your spotting scope or binos just don't cut it.  Whether or not you have dope, or experience, or eyestrain, or fatigue, or jet-lag.  Or your shitty camo or surveillance site or movement or your shivering got you busted and compromised the entire mission.

Add doing it after a 0300 alert, muster, deployment, in-flight rigging, jump, stalk, (or phone call after a full police shift, requiring you to drive from home 45 minutes away from crisis site), 24-48 hours of real-time reporting in weather and terrain not of your choosing, and then support for maneuver elements.

Don't know of any sniper competition that exercises the full range of Sniper/Observer (Marine parlance Scout/Sniper) skills.  But seeing what happened to IPSC and IDPA leaves me certain that any game will eventually be corrupted to where it doesn't resemble anything you would do in combat.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 02:13:40 (ZULU) 

Good deal Tony; I wonder if they have different reticles for different cal's or they just have a standard .308? Anyhow lemme know how it comes out and thanks!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 02:42:32 (ZULU) 

Maybe we could hold the world championship matches in Afganistan.

Bring in Bin Laden and take home 25 mil!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 02:47:31 (ZULU) 


******CAN I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE******

Apologies for shouting and bandwidth use but I think you'll understand.

THIS AFTERNOON I HAVE HAD THE DISPLEASURE OF BEING EXPOSED TO A LETTER THAT CONTAINED A SMALL AMOUT OF "WHITE POWDERY SUBSTANCE". WHILE I DIDN'T COME IN DIRECT CONTACT, I WAS WITHIN 8 FEET WHEN IT WAS OPENED.......

I NEED A COUPLE QUESTIONS ANSWERED BY ONE OF YOU HAZMAT TYPE GUYS.

1) HOW CONCERNED SHOULD I BE ABOUT CONTAMINATION OF ITEMS IN PANTS POCKETS - WALLET, MONEY, ETC. I WIPED CELLPHONE DOWN WITH 50% BLEACH SOLUTION, ALL ELSE WAS DEEP IN POCKETS. HANDS WASHED MULTIPLE TIMES.

2) THERE WAS NO "CLOUD" OF POWDER WHEN OPENED, THE WOMAN WHO OPENED THE LETTER NOTICED A POWDER ON HER HANDS AFTER HANDLING THE LETER. NO POWDER ON DESKTOP. STUFF SEEMED VERY PERSISTENT, SHE COULDN'T WIPE IT OFF - ALMOST LIKE A TALC OR CORNSTARCH, OR THE WHITE SHIT LEFT AFTER RUBBING HANDS ON OLD ALUMINUM SIDING...ANYONE SEEN THE REAL DEAL AND CAN GIVE A GOOD DESCRIPTION OF THE OFFENSIVE MATERIAL.

3) GIVEN THE SPARSE NATURE OF THE POWDER, HOW CONCERNED SHOULD I BE ABOUT CONTAMINATED CLOTHING AND CAR - NO ATTEMPT WAS MADE TO DECONTAMINATE US AT THE SCENE BEYOND ANTIBACTERIAL HAND WASH, THEY GAVE US OVERWHITE TYPE JUMPSUIT TO WEAR OVER OUR CLOTHES TO GO HOME IN AND INSTRUCTED US TO TRIPPLE BAG ALL CLOTHING INTO GARBAGE BAGS PENDING RESULTS OF TESTS ON THE LETTER, OR LAUNDER TWICE IN HOT WATER WITH DETERGENT AND A 5% BLEACH SOLUTION & WIPE SHOES WITH 10% BLEACH SOLUTION. I PUT ON LATEX GLOVES & STOOD IN A BAG WHILE I TOOK OFF SHOES AND SOCKS, TIED THEM OFF, TOOK OFF SHIRT PANTS AND JUMPSUIT ALL AT ONCE AND PLACED IN SEPERATE BAG. THREW WATCH IN BAG ALSO. SEALED SECOND BAG AND PLACED THESE TWO INTO A THIRD BAG SEALED AND PLACED INTO ONE MORE BAG AND SEALED.I THEN TOOK A SHOWER AND SOAPED AND RINSED SEVERAL TIMES. WENT TO ER AS PER MY DOCTOR's INSTRUCTIUONS  FOR REQUISITE SWABS...RESULTS ON MONDAY PROBABLY ABOUT THE SAME TIME WE HEAR ABOUT THE LETTER. AM CURRENTLY TAKING AUGMENTIN SO THEY OPTED NOT TO PRESCRIBE CIPRO

COMMENTS AND ADVICE APPRECIATED

THANKS

Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
trying to stay calm, as this shit , hits really close to home - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 03:22:51 (ZULU) 

Saw Bush on CNN headline news today, he said, "This is NOT a political campaign, it is a WAR!"

DAMN, I'm glad he's tha Pres........

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!! - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 03:23:23 (ZULU) 


Jeez... after a few days of sorta quiet on the Roster, I go off to the range for a few hours, and it takes me a half an hour to read it... Hot Damn!

-

Seth... the M3-LR (not LRT M3) can be had on eBay for around $550, in minty condition... also if you get the Dillon press, get the 550, not the 500... you'll want to up grade it in about 4 days, so get it right the first time, and save money.

On 4064 vs Varget... IMR 4064 is a bitch to throw in ANY powder measure... it is one of the reasons it's popularity has declined.

At one time, it was considered THE powder for the 308 match cartridge, and it's the powder that Federal uses for their GM loads (but under a non-canister number, cuz they get it in freight train car loads).

However, there are better powders available... see my comments below!

-

Andy's Dad... I pretty much agree with you, except I disagree with you! (HA!).  IPSC went down the toilet for the reasons you said, but IDPA came in and filled the original purpose... the IDPA matches around here are ROUGH on pistols... you add a magazine funnel, or a extended safety or slide release, and you go home.  There are NO modified or race pistols...

The sniper match thing is in flux right now... truely "real" matches are not posible in most parts of the country... lack of long enough ranges with UKD targets is a major problem.

And the problem that many contestants that come to a match... they don't have a long range in their home state, so if they can't sight in at the match, they have no chance of coming near the target, even if they are a skilled shooter.

The issue of non-anthropomorphic targets (do I get a quarter for that one ;) is, I think, a non-issue.  As a Sniper, military, or LE, you may have to put one through a small hole in a cinder block wall, a leaf on a bush, or a door that is partially ajar... so I think the targets can be varied... not just static "E" types.  If a shooter has to shoot at a profile of a human to hit, then they aren't much of a shooter... you should be blind to the form, and just see a point that you want to hit.  I would go further and say that the steel targets should be obscured behind bushes, trees, up in trees (where backstops allow), and make the shooter work for it.

Are the rifles starting to drift... yup!  We saw that at the Joisey Match... but you can put a #15 limit on them, and require that they be a sniper rifle as issued, or a very close replica of one THAT HAS BEEN ISSUED OR SEEN SERVICE... make scope power be limited (or taped) at 10X, require that the cartridge be in a military caliber of the country that issued the rifle... which means that its 223, 308, 30-06, 7.62x54, etc.  A 308 or '06 shouldn't be shooting against a 6mm PPC.  Let other guns shoot (so they get a taste of it), but be scored seperately as "other rifles", and no goodies to take home, or not scored at all.

You can have 20 rounds in 4 minutes or 3 minutes, instead of 20 minutes... there are a LOT of creative ways to make these things more challenging, and take the benchrest guns out of them.

The rest of it... landnav (orienteering), fieldcrafts are fine, but are really hard to test in a short match setup... you could take 3 days to test l tesav, and fieldcrafts alone.

And Kims games???  Lemme tell you... as one over the hill shooter to another... you don't want to go there, unless guys over 50 get their score doubled (CRS ya' know! ;)

I had a lotta fun at the Joisey match, but about half of the guys never heard of the rules about sand bags, or other restrictions... they just shot what they wanted, and should have been disqu'ed.

I would like to hear other guys input on this, too!

-

Nicholas Young... the top dial is for the range in yards... the second dail is for "+/-" variations in your individual rifle/ammo, or weather corrections.

In BDC scopes, the "clicks" are 1 moa apart, but it is very easy to split clicks, meaning you are never more than 1/4 moa off your intended POA.

I love M3 BDC scopes...  I have them on most of my 30 cal riffles.

-

WM Moore... I use these little tripods... go here:

http://www.telescope.com/cgi-bin/OrionTel.storefront/3be3491201f144cc271ec0a80a0c0676/Product/View/G103

They are small, and low to the ground, and have micrometer adjustments... very nice!

-

TonyM... >"The Varget is a stick powder and it does not meter any better than any other stick powder."<

Not true... varget is less than half the length of 4064, and meters very well from Redding, RCBS, or Dillon measures.  I've gone through about 58 pounds of it, and Pat has gone through about 80 pounds of it.  It is very easy to work with.  Many match shooters don't even bother to weigh it.

-

If a bad day at the range is better that "You know what"... what is a good day at the range :))))))))))))

I had a GREAT day at the range today... and have some interesting things to say about Varget, 4064, and Lapua brass...

The riffle that I took to the Joisey match is a Winchester Custom Sharpshooter (first version, Schneider bbl/McMillan "A2")... it has always shot OK (about 1/2" but with fliers from time to time), with Fed Match brass, and SMKs.  I hadn't shot it in a few years, cuz the scope on it had to go on another stick, so it has sat on the bench with just rings, until a few weeks ago.  When the Joisey match came up, I put a B&L 10x Tac on it, and threw together some loads of 44gr Varget, Fed match cases, and 175 SMKs.

The riffle did fairly well, and when I got my target home, I found that 17 of the shots were within a 2" circle/group with 3 fliers in the 9 ring, at 300 yds.

I decided to feed it better brass, so I got 200 pieces of .308 Lapua.

Also, I decided to try some 4064 (left over from a .220 Swift I had), as well as Varget... I wanted to get the very last bit out of it.

All loads were trickled to 1/40th of a grain, and the 175's were seated just .01 short of the lands.

The first seven groups with Varget were as follows

.370 (includes CCB)-

.255

.290

.295

.240

.310

.270

... with no fliers!  SDs were running from 6 to 8.  The last three loads in the batch opened up (loads were very warm to HOT!)

This Lapua brass is worth it's weight in Gold!!!  The gun has never shot that well with FED GM Brass... mostly groups twice that big!

OK... on the 4064... the groups were about twice as large... running from a good .470", to the mid /.6"s... so much for 4064!

Also, another consideration... a .308 load of IMR-4064 will vary about 100 to 125 fps from summer to winter, it is NOT a temperature stable powder.... the Varget load will vary about 5 fps from summer to winter... In the 308, Varget RULES!!!

My next batch will be in fireformed brass, and just touching the lands... this stick is finely showing it's pedigree.

The AR-50 ROCKS!!! I had a ball shooting M48's... they have a very bright trace (about as bright as a roadside emergency flare), and will explode when they contact the surface of dirt... very sensitive detonators.  It is shooting around 3/4 moa (but it is filthy... after 150 rounds without cleaning :((...

... yeah, yeah, I know, I'll do it this weekend!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 04:48:50 (ZULU) 


The war is turned over to the warriors, and the suicidally stupid State Department rules of engagement are shit-canned.

Do I hear Hallelujah!?

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95001415

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 05:00:16 (ZULU) 

Steve hockeyref,

You just went through the worst cluster F**K decon and bad advice that I have ever heard of. When I have a couple of cups of joe in the morning an wake up, I will reply further.

The good part about this is that you probably got a face full of Johnson's Baby powder so don't fret. Email me with details on where you live and where you were.

Hazmat Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 05:08:27 (ZULU) 


Can anyone tell me the name of the manufacturer of the "SF ELITE II Expedition Pack" found in the Ranger Joe's catalogue?

Please post and answer or e-mail me @ shepard98@earthlink.net

Semper Fi.

shep <shepard98@earthlink.net>
- Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 05:47:44 (ZULU) 

BRASS

Boy am I pissed after reading the comments on brass, particularly the bad words about Federal GM.  While I have been waiting (and waiting and waiting)for my rifle to return from the US (where I am having a custom job done) I thought 'new rifle, may aswell get new brass'.  So I bought 300 Fed GM for the 300WM trimmed, neck turned, chamfered, primer pocket uniformed, flash hole deburred and polished the whole lot at great expence of time and money.  Now you lot tell me Federal ain't all that good, wished you had told me earlier ;-)

For future reference has anyone got ant recommends for brass with the 300WM; I see Lapua does'nt make any.

Any help much appreciated, as always.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 11:58:57 (ZULU) 

Does anyone have any experience with the Brunton Sherpa wind speed instrument? It does wind speed, temp, barometric pressure, and altitude.

Thanks,

TonyM

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, USofA!!!! - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 12:21:15 (ZULU) 


Jon Beardsley...

... sorry I was so late in posting this thing on Fed brass... I waited a whole 3 hours 'til I got home ;))).  But there has been much talk here on the roster over the last few years about the falling quality of Fed brass.

That doesn't mean that the brass is not usable... but you need to turn the necks, drill the flash holes so they are all uniform, and weigh the cases, to make them into super match cases, the equal of Lapua...

... and when you turn necks (of any brass), you MUST re-anneal them.

Turning the necks makes them work-hardend.  This will cause them to split much sooner, and annealing will also make the neck tension on the bullets much more equal.

Since you have done most of the work, just go ahead and finish it.  the very best US domestic brass in Winchester... and that is the opinion of many shooters.

One batch of Fed match brass I bought a few years ago varied in weight from 155 to 176 grains... and not just a few were out, the whole 400 pieces were spread all over the 21 grain range.  For a premium match grade gun, the brass (that you use) should all be within 2 or 3 grains from high to low weight.

The work you have done is not wasted... just find a drill size that is a few thou over the punched hole size, and clean up all the flash holes, and you should be Okie Dokie.

If it doesn't shoot as well a you think it should, then try a box or two of Norma 300WM brass ... also GOOD STUFF!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 13:05:38 (ZULU) 


Thanks for the dope on Brass. I have a lot of olympic Federal left over and it's not all that great either. My Winchester will usually outshoot it. Lapua huh?

Catman, covered the powder thing and said it all except I believe I have observed that VARGET is much more forgiving for small errors in load size. I think he said that too in a way. When I say "powder" these days I mean VARGET. It's all I use.

Contribution to the competetion Thread; Just to provide weekend reading for people with nothing to do....

I went to a little shoot after being invited by a Roster lurker about a year ago. He was a real fine feller and I really felt bad for him having the situation turn out like it did.

The rules said no sighters, no flags, and essentially be ready to shoot at 100 300 and 500 meters. No bench rifles were allowed and no spotting scopes or spotters to assist . Catfish will be served type deal! $25 bucks 15 shots etc.

I was a windy day, 40 mph me and Son #1 had called ahead and asked if we could just shoot our M1a's and were told sure! Son's M1a threw a fit and the mount failed the night before so we just stuck my little 20" Sendero with the KDF in and figured we'd both shoot it or one would use my M1a with Iron Sights only. Dirt blew all the way down there 200 miles or so and we questioned out Sanity for the venture.

We followed the directions and found ourselves going down a dirt road toward a farm house with trees on both sides. Some cars were parked along but not knowing where we were going we wound up in this guys yard. We'd heard guns in close prox but didn't realize when we stopped to look that we were sitting 50' in front of a firing line.

Which was literally in this guys front yard about 30' from his front porch.

A bit shaken and apologizing all over the place we survived long enough to pay the fee. On the match with sighters they were all firing unlimited shots to sight in. There was a tarp about 25 or 30' wide with 6 or 8 shooters lying side by side. In this "no Bench Guns" match there were large scopes big barrels and colored stocks from red/white& blue to deep purple. This fella with the spotting scope was directing everyone to some gongs out there and asked if we wanted to sight in. "I guess I'm ready to shoot I said!" My Son indicated the same. "What are you..so kind of hot shot? You better sight in!"

The RM barked at me. So I Lay down to shoot. "Bolts out!" he barked again. "I opened the bolt!"  .."I said Bolts out! I mean out!" This guy wants me to take my bolt out of the rifle! I did. There are two Gongs out at 300 meters and one is shot all to hell and 4' in diameter the other is 6" and doesn't show any hits. Like a fool I dump a round into the 6" "You missed!" I glanced at my son's who's watchin with his Bino's. He grins and give me a hi sign. "I shoot another one" RM says" Missed! I don't even see where your hittin!".

Another Hi sign. Then I realize he thinks I'm shootin this 4' target.

I tell him to look at the small gong. He does and see's the 2 shots and says."You want to go to 500?" I shoot one and he gets up and walks off. I pull my bolt, Son says "You were OK I think!" All of a sudden what I took for The grevience committee shows up and says "My KDF has to go! Noise they say!... now I don't argue at somebody else's match but I did ask..."Is there a rule against them or something?" "The RM says no but there should be!" I say "Well I can take it off. The RM says it will change my point of impact... and I reply that it might but I've already paid so...Anyway we proceed to the first 5 shots.. a sitting position the rules say. I find out that means for some of the members shooting from a chair with a tripod.

To make a long story shorter... we both shot a good group in the guys target next to ours without the KDF on withdrew from the match and laughed all the way home. Regret I Didn't stay for the fish! I love competetion! We fell back on the #1 rule for Snipershoots. Don't get mad and don't crawl through the cow shxt!
 
 

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 14:42:45 (ZULU) 

Gents, er uh...........whatever

Question for you guys that shoot 1911 style .45s.  Do you prefer a flat or an arched mainspring housing?

BRASS:

Not too long ago I bought 1000 rounds of brass.  500 Winchester and 500 Remington.  At that time there were duscussions on the DR about brass so I decided to weigh about 100 of each to see how close in weight they were.  Both weighed in the same range, can't remember the grain weight and both had a case weight variance about the same, somehwere around 15 to 18 grains if I recall.  Also at the time, I had a few hundred rounds of Federal GMM from different lots of ammo.  I weighed a representative sample of these for comparison and found that while the Federal are somewhat heavier on a case weight basis, the variance was in the same range as both the Remingtom and the Winchester.  The point:  There is none.  Just sharing my findings.

On IMR-4064:

43.0-43.5 grains of 4064 is a great load in .308  It IS a pain in the rear to load with though.

Sinister

You have caused some indecisiveness on my part as to my planned McMillan stock purchase.

Question to all:

As many of you know, I shoot a SAVAGE rifle.  It has a factory 24" tube that is so rough on the inside that it looks like it was drilled with a drill bit equivalent of a corn cob.  I have now shot this rifle twice at 1000 yards and have had no trouble reaching that distance and the bullet still being supersonic.  My question is why is the preference toward 26" tubes for the .308?  Is there a real need for the extra length and weight?  I understand that it has been determined that 26" is optimum for complete powder burn, but isn't that particular to the powder?  If my cob rifled 24" barrel is sufficient, I would think that a 24" by one of the top barrel makers would be the ticket.  Thoughts??

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 15:04:13 (ZULU) 

SF ELITE II Expedition Pack:

I dont know who makes it right offhand, but it would appeear to be very similar in concept to the CFP=90 that the Rangers do or did issue for arctic work. In fact, it looks like a CFP-90 that has gone to a simpler and probably more robust suspention system. That is a lot of jack for a pack of uncertain lineage.

As as alterniative, may I offer:

Advanced Italian Pack System 6150 Camo New

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?dept%5Fid=602&sku=ZWB%2D147&imgid=&mscssid=KQLXF3J48K2X9NCG6T1E2705PTNH72A5

(God, what a URL, but it works if you cut and paste in carefully :-)

This is an Italian military pack that goes for $100.  It comes with an internal frame, its own detachable "combat pack" (and a much better one than the CFP-90), IMHO, and is constructed of modern materials and has its fair share of realy neat-o design featueres.  The camo pattern is essentialy a very brown version of woodland. It is BIG, considerably larger than it might appear in the catalog and every bit as large as the CFP-90, tending to be taller and narrower in proportions.

But, what I like the best about it is that, in the final analisys, it is realy just a great big ole' toploading ruck.  It is less adjustable than the CFP-90, but then the suspention proabably wont break like the one on my CFP did (grr...gotta go buy rivets today).  It would appear to be essentialy bomb-proof. I loaded my brand new Italian pack up and went for a short hike last evening, and can tell you that it works quite well.  With the addition of a sternum strap or two, this pack will work about as well and anything else in its class.  I can tell you that, having walked a fair bit with the CFP and now this Italian job, the Italian back may be the deal of the decade when it comes to expedition-size military packs. One may be up for sale soon, and I am not sure which one I will keep.

And in other product review news...

Chicago Pneumatic Powdercoating Rig:

I have been set up to do Parkerizing at the house for about two years now, but have yet to do a run. The whole thing is messy, time consuming and generaly a pain in the ass. A big staniness steel tank of near-boiling caustic chemicals and all that. Not fun, really. Now, I discover that I may never have to, or even want to fire up that tank.

I bought a home powdercoating rig from Harbor Freight the other day:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42802

and used it to do the barrel, receiver and some other ancillary parts on an FAL I am putting together.  Use was a breaze and the finish is simply incredable to one used to the performance of products such as Brownells Baking Laquer.  No solvent-based paint I am aware of can lay a finger on this stuff in terms of toughness and flexibility, and all it takes is the gun (about $100), the powder ($10 per 1/2 pound, which will do at least 20 long guns or more), and the liberation of your old toaster oven from the kitchen (buy the missus a new one as a suprise  :-), and have at it. You may have to fab or procure an oven big enough to do barrels and barreled actions: for now, I just cut a hole in the door and did the barrel one end at a a time: worked fine).

Warnings: do not cure the parts in an oven that you will later cook food in, and you MUST wear a respirator while applying the powder: while non-toxic, if this stuff gets in your lungs it aint never coming back out!

Screw the park tank, and screw Brownells and their often defective spray cans. This stuff is 'da proverbial bomb.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, South (Note: NOT North) Carolina, The United States of You-Know-Where - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 15:06:37 (ZULU) 

Bill Rogers,

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Semper Fi

Paul

PAUL <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 15:12:05 (ZULU) 


'yote Bate... you're a fine piece of work!  A friggin riot that was!

Paul... Flat on all of them, from the little Officers to the full sized Delta's.... My 43.5 of Varget will beat up your 43.5 of 4064 ;))

On 24" barrels... the reason is if something is good, more of it is better ;)... actually it is a matter of preference, and it is easier to get a given level of performance from the longer tube, with less powder (= longer barrel life)... and the weight makes holding a little easier.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 15:24:36 (ZULU) 

Paul:

15-18 grain variance?  On 308?

I use Federal brass for 300 winmag.  The brass must weigh 262.0 grains +/- 2 grains, or I toss it. Usually 1-4 per 100 are out of spec.

I read once where a benchrester had said that many BRs allow only a 1% tolerance in brass weight.  That seemed to fit the Federal brass that I am using, so I stuck with it.  Also, the brass that didn't meet spec were cut lengthwise and I found that they had varying wall dimensions.  The ones that met spec had near perfect dimensions.

Hank <hank@vocallect.com>
Denver, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 16:45:49 (ZULU) 


Looks like Taliban/Al Queda leader's personal guards are competent fighting men.  The jury is still out on General Franks. "..Another senior officer.." needs some jail-time.

http://drudgereport.com/flash33.htm

Shocking News Flash:  Pathfinders went in before Ranger drop!!  Shazaam!!

Journalism students are transported to and from their classes in little yellow buses.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 17:25:11 (ZULU) 

On BBL length.  So much of this is hype period dot.  It can be explained this way a good short bbl is better than a piss poor factory long bbl.  I did a test with several lots of 175 grain 308 ammo in different rifles.  Five were PSS Remingtons with between zero and 1000 rounds through them.  One was my 26" KxP bbl'd NorCal, One my 22" bbl Rock (Acc Int bbl) and several more rifles I can not remember right now.  The good after market bbls went 2625 (22") to 2720 (26").  The Remingtons factories went 2500-2600 (all 26") with the same ammo.  The little 22" kicked butt on the Remingtons.  Now the better bbls fouled less/more rounds between cleanings and cleaned easier.  Just remembered one other was a Factory Winchester 26" SS HVY Varmint and it went 2700 fps with the same ammo.  Obviously it had a better bbl than the Remingtons.  You will never know this if you shoot 100 yards all the time but if you reach out to 800-1000 yards the faster tubes will kick butt.

My work rifle has a 22" tube because the range will never be past 800 yards and 2625 is good enough. I can still hit all day at 1000 yards with it but prefer to have 2700 fps to shoot at this range.  Its not about if its supersonic its about hitting and a faster bullet fights the wind better, given the same weight. The shorter lighter side of the rifle makes up for what it gives up at 1000 yards.  Ask the guys who humped full size rifles in New Mexico this summer while my fat butt carried the Rock.  They hated how easy I carried my rifle while they had monsters to deal with.  I never felt under gunned.  The thinner air at 7200-8500 elevation made my little gun shoot like a 338 Lapua.

Paul, Varget versus 4064 no real difference in performance/Velocity.  The Varget does better in temp changes but velocity is always about the same for my rifles.  I think of Varget as a product improved 4064, shorter pieces also make it easier to meter in the Varget but actual performance about the same for me.  I imagine in some smaller calibers it might make a difference but I cant see much in 308.  Now when I have shot the last of the 50 lbs of 4064 I have I will switch to Varget and would not buy more 4064 if Varget was available because Varget kicks its butt in temp changes.  Just wont throw away all that powder for minimal gain.

CDC, thanks foir the kind words.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 17:47:05 (ZULU) 

Hank,

As I said this has been a little while ago and I did it just to satisify my curosity.  I cannot remember if 15-18 was the exact number although I am pretty sure.  I know for certain that it was in the teens on the ES of weight.  The next time I get a chance I will do it again and post the exact findings here.

Let me clarify on the Varget issue.  I too am a Varget convert.  Got about 9 pounds ready to load.  I was just saying that 43-43.5 grains of 4064 is a very accurate load for me as well.  However, in my Steyr SSG P-II I shoot IMR 3031.  40.5 grains of 3031, Remington brass, CCI 200 primer and a 168 SMK.  This load tracks the BDC on the Hensoldt 10x42 perfectly to 600 yards.  Have not shot past that distance.  As soon as I shoot the rest of the 3031 loads, I will develop a load with Varget for this rifle too.

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 18:44:22 (ZULU) 

Hey guys,

Went and hung out with Sinister yesterday at their jump area.  I am very lucky to be near guys with that kind of knowledge and personalities to match.  And they bring super good luck because I killed a nice racked five point this morning not even seventy-five yards from the house.  At 182 pounds that was a nice deer for around here and that 300 RUM straight on in the chest wecked his world.

Dave, get Paul to get that tandem rig out if he doesn't think he will be to busy Mon. morning and if George is still around, I'll bring the RUM.  Tell Paul also that buck had fighting cuts on his neck and in rut good.  He said he might come try them this week.

Frank Bullard <Bearsniper1@aol.com>
Fay., N.C., U.S. - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 19:10:36 (ZULU) 

"Sunrise, an Asian radio station, canvassed the opinions of 500 Muslims in Greater London, mainly of Pakistani origin and aged between 20 and 45. An overwhelming majority - 91 per cent - believed the war was between the Christian West and Islam, while 98 per cent would not fight for Britain."

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/30/nmus30.xml

The following is a long, authoritative report on powerful American Muslim organizations.  Don't expect to be reassured.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/26/muslims/index.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 19:55:09 (ZULU) 

Blaser have brought out a 300 WSM version of the R93 (and also K95),They are loading their own Factory ammo and for this chambering are offering 2 factory loads using the following bullets:

165gr Hornady SST.

180gr Swift Scirocco.

A Barrel should also become available in this calibre for the  R93 tactical,LRS 2 and R93UIT and coupled with a bolthead and clip for this case will make upgrading excisting rifles possible.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 21:53:04 (ZULU) 

Rosterfarians,

This is radically off the sniper topic, but do you know of a current source for the .22LR Gattling Gun?

No offense, but a lot of you guys seem to have been around a long time, and may remember something about these.  I read about these pretties in G&A a generation ago.  At the time, they were available for sale at what seemed a princely sum.  The current price of subguns has lead me to re-evaluate the cost of the old Gattling Gun.

Since the primary purpose of the squirtgun seems to be the noisily giddy expenditure of ammo, the rimfire Gattling Gun seems to be an enchanting way of accomplishing the mission - without Class III entanglements, or ownership of an ammo factory.

Cheers!

-Earl

Earl <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
K.C., MO, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 21:59:05 (ZULU) 

Here is a link to once fired brass (Lapua included).  Take it for what it's worth.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/weighedbrass.asp

-Rene Lyndaker-

Rene Lyndaker <sunacre@northnet.org>
Lowville, New York, USA - Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 22:24:16 (ZULU) 


The way the geopolitocal forces line up and this war's stakes.  This is very good.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/456zfygd.asp

This is a link to an article that discusses the recent change from a State Department to a DOD strategy.  If it looks familiar it is because,  for about a week and a half, I have been shouting stuff that sounds remarkably like this from the rooftops.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/452xhmzw.asp

If I'm just cluttering up the Roster with this stuff, say so and I'll only post links directly related to combat operations.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, November 3, 2001, at 23:07:23 (ZULU) 

BBL. Length:

Listen to Undude.

Benchresters have been using 20" for years, so a short bbl. is apparently capable of reasonable accuracy.

My 22" Kreiger shoots well under a minute with factory ammo off a bipod (.6  MOA even with my tired old eyes behind the scope).

My pride and joy, a Chandler .308 with a 20" Hart bbl., is showing 2615 fps with Black Hills 175 gr. Match (NON-MOLY!!). Damn thing shoots alot better than I can, too. I have a running joke with Ken that his 28" barrels will shoot exactly 8" farther than my 20". He just wants to get closer to the target!!

I've bought my last long barrel. I'm not saying you should take a hacksaw to your 24-26" tubes, just don't underestimate a short barrel.

(A lot of women have heard the same line).

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 00:14:57 (ZULU) 

I being both lazy and of little time to go slugging through the posts, am looking for the gent that posts here on occasion that makes the slings.  Please email me, I have acquired 3 Singer "20u" Industrial sewing machines.  I don't know if this is the type you use or not but remembering your down time here awhile back thought you might need a spare.  They were bought right and need a home.

5db <info@accu-Shot.com>
Midway , KS , - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 00:15:55 (ZULU) 

I being both lazy and of little time to go slugging through the posts, am looking for the gent that posts here on occasion that makes the slings.  Please email me, I have acquired 3 Singer "20u" Industrial sewing machines.  I don't know if this is the type you use or not but remembering your down time here awhile back thought you might need a spare.  They were bought right and need a home.

5db <info@accu-Shot.com>
Midway , KS , - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 00:16:15 (ZULU) 

It says here that we're going in this week. There's much good info in this report and this paper is credible.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$5HWLPJAAADIINQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/04/wwar04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/04/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 01:21:29 (ZULU) 

All the posts on brass & powder AFTER I acquire 400 new Lake City Match brass & 6 lbs of 4064.  Oh well, riffle still shoots better than I do and practice makes perfect.  Nostalgia must be worth something.

'Lito-thanks for post on tripods.  Looked at the Freeland stand on Sinclair's website and had a heart attack at the price.  I have rifles I didn't pay that much for.  Looking at the picture was interesting.   I think I can whip up something similar out of stuff laying around the shop in a couple of hours.  Will have to unscrew the tripod legs instead of fold 'em.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 01:50:31 (ZULU) 

Attention 5db

The person who makes the slings would be our very own Mike Miller of Tactical intervention specialists.

He can be reached at tactical@tacticalintervention.com or you can go to the website I made for him at http://www.tacticalintervention.com and hit the "contact us" button for his telephone or snail mail address.

Enjoy

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 03:02:07 (ZULU) 

Hey Guys, there are a couple of interesting scopes on ebay.com, a S&B 1.5-6x24 with bdc for $284, and a Hensold 4x24 with stanag mounts for$355, thought maybe some of you might like to take a look. Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 03:24:07 (ZULU) 

Just two more things tonight:

CDC - I have found the news links you have been posting since the 11th to be very interesting and quite informative. I am sure I am not the only one who does not have time to pour over the myriad of news sites that you do to glean the gems you get for us.  I like the little notes that caption your links. It helps to know if I would be interested in looking it over.  Anyway THANKS!

Paul Cockerham - My preference has always been a FLAT mainspring housing. My first 45 was a true model 1911. It was made in 1917 and it does not have the relief cuts, the extended grip safety, or decent sights :-)   It DOES however have the flat mainspring housing and I grew to love the feel of that.  I also have recently gotten a Valtro Model 1998A1.  John Jardine chose to make these without a rounded housing and I am VERY glad of it.  The flat housing is just more comfortable and for me and the rounded one adds exactly ZERO to the functioning, safety or accuracy.  I better not get started on the Valtro or I will slobber up my keyboard. BOY what a sweet shooting pistol.

Speaking of sweet shooting, my girlfriend took my Nor-Cal Precision ( http://www.norcalprecision.com ) rifle from me two weekends ago and promptly outshot me with it. It's a strange thing to be proud and humbled at the same time ;-) [Insert the "I was very sick that day excuse here.]

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 04:08:14 (ZULU) 


H.O.G.'s,

As 'lito said, "wow", there sure is a lot of great topics on the go here, I am just sorry there is nothing for me to add here, unless you want to talk about moose hunting, and softwood lumber shutdowns.

CDC, way to go, and my vote is for you to keep it up, as long as you want.  The "heads up" on each link is especially good, as we can decide if it piques our curiosity or not.

MM, sorry to hear about your "handshake deal".  Unfortunately, not every honest face has an honest plan.

Lastly, to all "muslims" leaving the free world, to go and fight against "us", stay there, and attempt to eat a "yellow" food ration, cause ya just ain't no use to us.  You made your bed, now sleep forever in it.  PORK FAT RULES.

Out.

Oh yeah, there should be a "history of past shoots, and competitions", cause some of these stories are great reading just in themselves.

Thanks.

Sean Thomas <nailer@mackbc.com>
Mackenzie, B.C., Canada - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 08:07:56 (ZULU) 

SEAN WROTE - "Oh yeah, there should be a "history of past shoots, and competitions", cause some of these stories are great reading just in themselves.

 Thanks.

 Sean Thomas"

It is a GREAT idea!  Of course they should be submitted with photos(which I am sure SOMEONE took at these matches..........)

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 11:35:06 (ZULU) 

BruceRobinson:

"I've bought my last long barrel. I'm not saying you should take a hacksaw to your 24-26" tubes, just don't underestimate a short barrel.

(A lot of women have heard the same line)."

Bruce - Kim says to tell ya that it's not he barrel length that counts...it's how it's deployed.  (I told her to stand by for incoming after that one).

CDC - looks like you've sort of become our forward observer with regard to SITREPS, news, etc.... keep up the good work.

Take care hawgs...

Ken :)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 12:21:56 (ZULU) 


Some good sitrep concerning the coordination (or lack therof) with the NA.  The JSTARS deployment is significant.  It doesn't look like these guys are configured for offensive operations.  They are an element in a strategy we have a going.  I have no idea what that strategy might be.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36339-2001Nov3.html

"I know something's happenin', 'cause everything's movin'"_____Richard Pryor

Libs are trying to link antiterror and gun control.  George Will nails them:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33026-2001Nov2.html

Pakistan is playing both sides.  We're going to have to deal with the support they are giving the Taliban:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20011104-16818328.htm

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 13:59:41 (ZULU) 

'Lito:  I enjoyed the rundown on the Sharpshooter.  Way back when, I wanted one of the early ones pretty badly.  By the time I had scraped together the cash, Winchester changed to the HS Precision Custom Sharpshooter.  At first glance, I thought they were ugly, but the more I studied it....well, it just sorta grew on me.  I bought one and have never been sorry, but then I'm kinda fond of Winchesters.  One of my winter projects will be to sort out a load for a Model 71 in .348.

Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 14:21:55 (ZULU) 

Wow, I've learned a lot in the last couple days here about what powders people prefer, scopes, etc.  It's cool.

I still have around 430 or so of the 500 SMK 168s I bought a few weeks ago.  So I'll shoot them up.  But after that I wanna try 500 SMK 175s @2700 fps.  I think that's a damn good idea.  Just chuck the .308 BDC cam and use the .30-06 cam.  Of course, I don't have any cams yet, but I wanna develop my loads so that when I do get the M3 I'll have the ammo already developed to use with it.

My brother is bringing me over his can of spray Moly that he got for free from Midway USA.  I'm going to spray 100 of my SMK 168s and bake them in the oven at 250F or whatever temp. it says for 10 minutes to finish curing them.

What load of Varget would you all recommend to reach approximately 2600 fps?  My brother has a can of Varget and I'm gonna steal some when he's not looking... No, just kidding, I'll steal it while he *is* looking, because he's been taking some of my 6.5mm Hornady A-Max bullets, and I think he snaked some primers too.  What comes around goes around...

It seems you're all hooked on Varget.  I am just shooting up the last of my first can of IMR 4064, but based on the opinions shared on this forum in the past two days I think I'll just jump straight over to Varget.

So, I guess I'm looking for two loads.  One for 168 SMKs at 2600 fps, and one fore 175 SMKs at 2700 fps.  Anyone wanna offer up the Varget load that gets them there?  I use CCI primers.

I went camping with a couple scouts from my church Friday night.  Saturday morning both of the dads came to the campsite, which was conveniently located at the shooting shack one of the dads just built on a few dozen acres of woods he owns here in NH.  He's got a target stand set up at 50 yds and one at 100 yds.  With both dads present we talked about gun safety, established some range rules (these are two 14 year olds, and one of the dads brought along a 12 year old).  Then we started them all off shooting 10 rounds out of a Ruger 10-22.  They did pretty well all things considered (at the 50 yard target).  I wish we woulda had more time.  After they'd all fired 10 rounds outta the Ruger, I pulled out my Bushmaster 16" post-ban :-( AR-15, gave them all a quick lesson in its correct usage, and then had them all fire 5 rounds out of it.  They seemed to like it.  But the flash-enhancer on the post-ban gun, combined with the 16" barrel, combined with the fact we were in this plywood shooting shack, all teamed up to make for hellacious bang.  Not everyone had earplugs (bad planning) but everyone was instructed to plug their ears with fingers or whatnot.

Then I pulled out the Savage 10fp in the Choate stock which I've taken quite a fancy too.  I had only 4 (I know, a wierd number...) handloaded 168 SMKs left, so I fired them myself at 100 yards to demonstrate the use of the gun.  Then I had each of those present fire 2 rounds of this old British assault rifle ammo.  They all seemed to like it.  My 4 shot group was as close to exactly 7/8" as I can measure with a ruler.  Three of the shots were in a group slightly less than .5", and the fourth made the group 7/8".  I suspect, but don't know, that the "flier" that widened the group to 7/8" was the cold bore shot, but I can't prove it.

7/8" groups may be ho-hum for you guys, but I'm new to this whole precision rifle shooting thing, so I was pretty smug.  The load was also *not* consistently charged with powder, since I used a Dillon powder throw which threw a charge of IMR 4064 anywhere from 41.6 or so to 42.4 grains.  And the brass was from the same old british assault rifle ammo.  I'm excited to see what accuracy I can get when I use the Fed. GM brass (200 pieces) I just got (oh well, some day maybe I'll buy some Lapua as you all suggest, but I bought the Fed. GM before I read that about Lapua), and when I use a trickler to top off each charge of Varget at exactly whatever load gets me to 2600 fps or nearby.

Anyhow, if anyone wants to share with me their pet loads of Varget and both 168 SMKs and 175 SMKs (don't have any 175s yet, but I'll try some) that would be very, very cool.

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 14:22:15 (ZULU) 

You guys with dainty little feet might want to check this deal out on Danner Ft. Lewis boots.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1027110340&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1004927385&indexURL=0&rd=1

On barrel length...... Anyone checked out the reduction in velocity for a "snub nose"? I really am concerned about this! Does having a large bore count? How about reaction such as 'turtling up' in cold weather?

On tripods..... After the last match(wind and all)I designed a stand using a tire wheel and axle. Maybe that won't blow the scope around so that you have to chase it to see the friggin target!

Time to get hunting stuff ready, my neck is swelling up! Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 14:52:51 (ZULU) 

Jerry... When I saw the first edition of the Custom Sharpshooter in the winchester catalogue, I fell in love.  They were backordered for two to three years, so I gave up on it.  Then I saw a .308 CSS in a store, and they wanted $2,500 for it, firm... I bit the bullet, and cut them a check for it on the spot (then ran home with it, and scrambled hard to cover the check ;).

I then lucked out, and found a .223 CSS to match the .308... and it was less than half of the first one... from some guy that had bought it, and lost interest... there were only 20-ish made in .223.  I love them!!

The second edition (H-S)... they HAVE to grow on you... they are dog ugly - HA! ;)

-

Seth... you gotta get a new "Nom de' Plume" Dude!  Every time I start to type your name, it starts out "Douc..." on auto pilot.

For loads... if you have a standard length barrel, 45 grains of Varget will give the 175 around 2700, if you have a long barrel, then 44 grains will do it.  Most of the guys are shooting around 44 grains with the 175SMK... it's sort of a "shoots gud everywhere" load.

42 grains will do the 168SMK to around 2600 fps.  Remember that there is a lot of variation in barrels, and if you take five rifles with 24" barrels, the velocities from the same load may vary over 100fps (I have the tee shirt!)

Also, Seth... before you toss the Fed brass, remember that fine accuracy is the sum of a LOT of things... fine barrels, bedding, triggers, scopes, and other hardware...  and the experence to pull it all together and make it play.

The best rifle in the hands of a beginner will shoot poorly, and the best brass in an average barrel will give average groups... spend your money on ammo, and shoot your buns off...

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Official "H.R. 3076" Privateer... Loadin up my 175-SMks after dippin' them in pig fat... getting ready to get a REAL JOB ;)) HA! , - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 14:58:45 (ZULU) 

Seth,

 Start at 44.0 grains of Varget will get you where you need to go with either projectile weight.READ THE ARCIEVES & HOT TIPS COLD SHOTS + all those articles under IN REVIEW...................

Brass - Yeah like 'Lito said, you can go more expensive, but the skill level comes into play, along with sorting out equipment ugh "quirks".

 I use Federal for both .308 & .300WM and it works very well, Course I shoot R-E-M-I-N-G-T-O-N-S, which work very well "for me" in contary to some of the chronic Big Green Bashers of late.

 Bill Rogers covered the barrel reduction velocity thingee pretty well here at the Duty Roster - Crowning it with a Barlow knife, and then repeating with saw & Barlow..............

Maybe some of our favorite gunsmiths like George Gardner and others recently lurking, could post there findings.......... HINT-HINT!!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 15:33:12 (ZULU) 

Yep,

  44.2 grains Varget + 175 SMK + 26" barrel = 2,675 fps

  M3LR .30-06 drum is within a minute all the way out to 1,000 yards.

  I hit the Larue last weekend in Texas 3 times out of 10 in a 15 mph cross wind.  I'm very pleased with the system's performance.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 15:37:43 (ZULU) 

Aw yeah! the Barlow and Hacksaw trick! The main consideration is the bore size. Smaller bore needs longer barrel to derive velocity. .308 works quite well between 20 and 22". 22 Seems to be optimum to say it's the point of diminishing returns brings you to Brass Considerations. If it's a Large Magnum then you need the longer barrel to get the advantage of the large brass. Magnums at 26" are about optimum or even 28 in some cases. .223 gets best practical velocity at about 26". However in the AR, 20" seems magical for accuracy and speed. Just thumb rules.

Hey Guys go back a few posts and click on "5DB". He was asking about Undude's slings. He has an interesting Idea for an old problem. Not having tried it but it looks like something I will have to try.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 16:02:24 (ZULU) 

Good afternoon gents,

Thought some of you might be interested in this.  The link above for Mid-South Shooters Supply for the once fired brass.  It says that the brass is from the same lot # and grouped by weight.  Look at the Winchester.  Look at the weight variance.  16 grains from the same lot.  Similar to what I found.

Anybody have any good sources (read prices) for new Lake City match .308 brass?  I think that I am going to standardize on LC Match brass, CCI 200 and 175 SMKs for my handloads.  I am also going to use Varget but will have to find the load that works.  There are too many variables to all this stuff.  If I can get this standardized for my SAVAGE and get a load that will shoot sub MOA all the time I am going to quit all this experimenting.

Thanks to all that responded to the mainspring housing question.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 16:14:32 (ZULU) 

Cat Shooter,

You don't know how glad I am to hear you say my time and effort has not been wasted on those Fed GMs.  I forgot to mention that I had annealed them as well.

As a guy who sounds like he knows what he is doing, may be you could pass comment on my case prep (anyone else please feel free to comment as it is all self taught and gathered from various sources over the years):-

First I resize the lot, then measure their lengths to find the shortest case.  I trim the shortest case till it is just showing clean all round then set the stop and trim the rest (my present cases have ended up .010 shorter than the recommended trim length).  Followed by deburing inside and outside of the neck.

Then I turn all the necks (having expanded them first) till they are clean all round. I then chamfer the necks.

Next, I debur the flash-holes and uniform the primer pockets.

I then anneal the necks and shoulders using the tip of the cone in a blow torch flame, spinning them with a drill for about 7 seconds (the magic number).

Last, but not least, I tumble them till nice and shiney.

I use a drill for most of the operations, taking care not to spin them too quickly so as not to heat up the brass.  Before seating the bullets I size the necks using a bushing sizing die to -.003 of the loaded neck dimension so as to give enough tension to prevent the bullet from moving under recoil and/or repeated loading/unloading in the rifle.

After reading about weighing cases I will be doing this shortly and will post my findings.

Any help will be much appreciated as always.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 16:27:58 (ZULU) 

Ref: Brass Prep.

I've got one rifle that requires neck turning because of an undersized chamber.  It shoots really well.

My new M40A1 has a standard chamber and I just Full Length resize all my Winchester brass, Trim it to 2.000 long, deburr the flash-hole on the first trip and load 'em up.

Full Length resizing is important in a tactical rifle.  Try to avoid a tight case situation when dealing with life and death.  It's even a bitch when in the middle of a match (huh Jim?).

If you are a bench rest guy then the loading thing is part of the mantra but here I think precision without obsession.....Oh, I like that.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 18:01:22 (ZULU) 

I just wanted everyone to know that I purchased a SSG bolt knob from GA Precision on a TBA M40A3.  I am very happy with it.  The machining was excellent.  I had one done by AWC sometime ago on another Remington 700.  I like GA's better.  It was less expensive too.

Not too metion the turn around.  GA Precision received it on Monday.  I got it back on Friday.

Thanks,

David Whitson

David W. <jetlink@msn.com>
Plano, TX, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 18:31:06 (ZULU) 

ATTENTION ALL:

A few of you have speculated about why I have put up some rifles Jerry Rice/NorCal and George Gardner/GA Precision have made for me.  I poste don here why but not who I had the problem with.  It was not George or Jerry.  They are two of the finest men I have ever known and. as Bruce Robinson coins< I would trust them with my wallet!  The rifles are the finest on the planet and when I have sold enough to make what I need I will not sell another.  As slings sell I will have Jerry and George make new ones for me.  You will never likely see me sell another rifle by either.  The rifles I have listed where made for me to my specs and are exactly what I want in my kit.

You guys want the best in rifles and men making them.  You contact Jerry Rice or George Gardner.  Started with them as a business deal and now they are truye friends.

I hope that clears things up.

Semper Fi

D.O.L.

F.I.D.O.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 18:41:39 (ZULU) 


The Iranian government is cutting deals to help the Taliban.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$BEQBPNIAAK1Q5QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=%2Fnews%2F2001%2F11%2F04%2Fwiran04.xml&sSheet=%2Fnews%2F2001%2F11%2F04%2Fixhome.html

Iran is close to a popular revolution so the above deal may be an attempt to save their collective ass.  (Two seperate links)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$BEQBPNIAAK1Q5QFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/10/26/wiran26.xml

http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001416

What a frickin' mess.

Chicoms think 911 was so glorious and wonderful that they are packaging films of it in inspirational music videos.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$431SABQAAB2BBQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/04/wchin04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/04/ixhome.html

The Chinese characters for "crisis" and "opportunity" are identical. They are going to exploit this to their perceived advantage and they'll use the military technology Clinton sold them to do it.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
If you aren't apprehensive, you don't know what's going on. - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 19:13:01 (ZULU) 

Jon...

What you are doing to the cases is pretty much standard.  When annealing case necks, stand the cases in water so the water level is just under the shoulder about 2 or 3 mm... heat the cases until the water around the body just starts to bubble, and then knock them over so they go "Pssst".  Without the water, it is posible to soften parts of the case that you DON'T want softened... and if they air cool, they harden up again... they are the softest, (and most uniform) when quenched in water.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 19:26:02 (ZULU) 

The sooner we get over this hearts and minds bull the quicker we can get to the ass kickin. Dropping food on people and then bombing their ass has to be an exercise by somebody with no savy at all of what we are up against.  Powell and his damn coalitions are just giving them all something to hide behind while they organize. Holy WAR! You bet!

Sorry my judgement fails me... if this is too political, I'll delete it.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 20:00:34 (ZULU) 

Testing an account...

Marius <anaconda@cdsnet.net>
- Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 20:02:51 (ZULU) 


CDC, My vote is:  "KEEP IT UP!"  You save me a lot of surf time.

My old dog beat up 22 inch ten twist .308 puts the rest of the arsenal to shame.  Try one, you'll love it!  In fact, I pulled it apart to clean out moisture from a wet trip and retorqued everthing back when dried out.  Cold Bore Zero unchanged.  Never could get the PSS to do that.  I've never tried it with the Chandler, which pretty much stays indoors to keep it pristine (Colonel Norm would give me the ass whipping I always dreamed of if he discovered me pampering one of his rifles!).

PS did a special report on barrel length a few years ago.  They took a new barrel, shot it, cut an inch off, recrowned it and shot again down to 16" legal limit.  If I remember right (doubtful!), the 20 to 23 inch barrel shot as well as the longer lengths with the added benefit of being "stiffer".  I'll try to find the reference in the next few days.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 20:47:59 (ZULU) 

'yote Bate...

The Clintonistas got rid of, or drove out, most of the old hard line ass-kickers in the military, during the last 8 years.  He made it a "Kinder, gentler, military"... his vision was that all the military guys would hangout with the gay military guys at the officer's club, and hold hands, singing "Kumbya"... and the women in the military would swap intel about the best places to get makeup, and hair doos... it's gonna take us a while to get back to the purpose of war... BEATIN' THE SH*T OUT OF THE ENEMY, 'til they quit!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 21:14:37 (ZULU) 


Hello Gents

Hope someone can help me out here.  I'm been offered a M40 Remington sniper rifle.  Don't know if the price is fair.  Does anyone have an estimate of value?  Just the rifle, no scope or mounts.

Thanks for the assist.  Chandler

chandler <chandler@visuallink.com>
US - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 22:44:11 (ZULU) 

Short Barrels/velocity loss.

now I read an article on this once, and the idea was something to do with expansion ratios, but Im damned if I can remember much else except the velocity loss for a 30-06 was an average of 24fps per inch downto 18". and there where some odd balls like a 25-06 that shot faster with the barrel at 22" than 26, the article was by John R Sundra, and it was in Rifleman, he fitted some barrels to surplus mauser actions and cut em back an inch at a time chronoing the results. Ill dig it out and read it again.

I'm getting an average of 2680 FPS from a 20" heym barrel(308) using Hornady 168gr BTHP match factory ammo. the published velocity is 2700, so I ain't grumbling, the Quality of the barrel ie, how well the bore is finnished must make a difference in my opinion. I can't make up my mind between 24", 22" or 20" for my 30-06, which is also getting a heym barrel, Ill be using Hornady light mag 165gr and 180gr factory ammo and the max range I'll use it at will be 600m.

Short barrels are stiffer and this will improve on the harmonics, in thoery improving accuracy, which in my mind I'll take the accuracy advantage over another 20 fps any day.. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 23:30:51 (ZULU) 


Should case necks be annealed every time they're sized?

DW <urbantchr@aol.com>
- Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 23:54:35 (ZULU) 

I see the Boggies have been bombing things again in the UK, guess we'll be dropping food packages on Belfast next then !!

I think we've got used to this shit because it raises about as much excitement as a car crash on the motorway, isn't that shocking,

wonder who it was (real IRA) Omally Bin Bombin... Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Sunday, November 4, 2001, at 23:57:00 (ZULU) 

Aw 'Lito:  Any rifle that shoots like the HS Custom Sharpshooter shouldn't be called "dog ugly".  Note the black, clean lines with that chunky, straight bottomed stock.  Ponder that fat, stainless steel 24 inch barrel, that slings 175s into one ragged hole.  I love her, an' you're going to hurt JRs feelings.  It's really one of those oxymorons....she's so ugly, she's beautiful. HA!

Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 00:08:32 (ZULU) 

I just had a thought, maybe the IRA changed sides, Birmingham was full of Paki's and ragheads last time I was there,

we parked a small truck and went into a shop to buy a drink and a sandwich, when we came out a bunch of asian youths where stealing the load off the truck !! damn.. pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 00:12:05 (ZULU) 

Re: barrel length

The local club I belong to had John Farnam come out and teach a very nice "urban rifle" class.  It was basically AR-15 (and some dude with a mini-14) shooting at out to maybe 250 yards, and also a lot in under 50 yards, including this one thing where we were literally three feet from out targets and had to hold our ARs down at our waste and back and the muzzle was practically touching our targets as we fired.  It was about gun handling, shooting techniques, close-in techniques, plus some legal and mental stuff.

How does my post relate to barrel length?  Oh yeah.  I have a 16" barrel on my AR.  I learned really to appreciate having a shorty.  For *all* of the close-in training we did, having a 16" AR barrel was sooooo much better than having the standard 20".  A couple of the scenarios involved us sitting in this junker of a car that was at the training range, and getting out of it with loaded guns and engaging some targets at around 10 yards from under the car, behind the front doors swung out to the side, etc.  Let me tell you, that 4" makes a HUGE difference in how easy the gun is to handle in such situations.  There is obviously a very good reason why cops and those who go in to clear buildings want to take in as short a barrel as they can, not the 20" barrels.

Sure, I probably lose some muzzle velocity, but as long as my gun is powerful enough to do the job, and it is, then who cares?

The fact is, since this wasn't a military training class, but rather a class on how we might use an AR to defend ourselves and loved ones in a "Bad Situation (TM)", we limited ourselves to mostly fairly short range.  But I was still swinging those bowling pins with ease that we hung at 175-200 yards, prone unsupported next to a sideways 55 gallon drum, while moving in between shots so as not to stay in the same place and become a target.  That kind shooting is all that's required of this kind of gun.

So I guess my question is this.  If you can stay super-sonic and hence retain your accuracy potential out to 1000 yards and beyond with a 22" barrel, why go any longer?  My Savage has a 24" tube, but I'd have been very tempted if I coulda gotten it in 20" instead.  I've never sniped in any situation, much less a war situation, but I can imagine that the shorter the barrel you have, the more handy the gun will be when stalking through brush, grass, trees, etc.

And I'm quite sure, even in my inexperience, that that improved handiness in field use is going to FAR outweigh in importance the last hundred fps you might have gained with a 26" tube.

ps: Cat Shooter, sorry if Sethbag doesn't float  your boat.  It's the only nickname I can think of that other people ever actually called me.  If another one that's cool comes to mind, I'll change it.

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Monday, November 5, 2001, at 00:14:46 (ZULU) 

The rangemaster and I had an interesting conversation about the "F" class shooting at the Butner match last month. He and I thought that it may be a sweet little deal to have a 'tactical' F-class to get us guys without the funds for an F-class bench gun to compete together.

My suggestion to take it further would be to limit weapon weight to 17#, muzzle breaks allowed, no rear support other than hand, no front support other than a bag or pod, 308 and 223 only, scopes limited to 14x and all prone. Plus, your belly measurements have to be more than your chest!

Whut chall thank?

Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 00:33:20 (ZULU) 


DW... NO!

-

Boltster... Limit it to 15 pounds - scopes to 10x - bipods or ruck sacks in front (no sand bags) - NO MUZZLE BREAKS - small (squshy) bean bag for the rear - .223, .308, and 30-06 - and you got something there.

-

"The Dead Cat Test"

... a true story:

A kindergarten pupil told his teacher he'd found a cat. She asked if it was dead or alive.

"Dead," she was informed.

"How do you know?", she asked.

"Because I pissed in his ear and it didn't move," said the child innocently.

"You did WHAT?!?", the teacher squealed in surprise.

"You know," explained the boy, "I leaned over and went 'pssst' and he didn't move."

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 00:37:03 (ZULU) 

Sethbag:

At the 100yd range today 70 to 80 degrees, 8 to 15 mph tail wind. Rem 700P 20 in stock tube. Varget 43.8gr, Fed Match brass, Winchester WLR primers, Hornady 168gr HPBT match bullet. Humidity 94%, barometric pressure 29.99 to 30.08. Chronographed 2677 to 2706fps 5 shot spread. 1 in groups because I could not do my part.

Agree have to do somthing with the handle!

Time for Band of Brothers.

Out,

TonyM

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, USofA!!!! - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 01:08:51 (ZULU) 

I just miss the napalm pictures Catman!

Like cats, It tends to lower my blood pressure.

Mushroom Clouds just don't do it for me by themselves!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 01:45:42 (ZULU) 

Just finished watching final Band of Brothers. Dang near got misty eyed at the end. Every day I kick my ass for not joining when I was young enough to do so. I missed a lot.

A humbled Bolt, Out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 02:13:52 (ZULU) 

Lito! - My monitor man.  It is covered in coffee!

Hey guys.  Been a tad busy lately but have been trying to stay up with the Roster with quick scans.

Bolt - F Class was orginally designed to get the "common man" back into shooting.  However it seems that the ones with more money and the spend $1000.00 for each extra point is causing F Class to go expensive. as well.  I would go along with yours and 'Lito's suggestions.  Keep the weight down to toteing weight.  Muzzle breaks are just not needed for those calibers.  I do think that the 30-06 is a little long in the tooth, but hell, so is 'Lito. :-)

Bruce will agree with you on the barrel lengths.  The shorter lengths are easier to carry, and work great and are stiffer.  Only the Palma shooters with their need for longer sight radius and tradition of slower powders, think Black, regard the longer barrel as the way to go.  Even the anal retintive benchers are going shorter, Ain't that right 'Lito?

Dam haven't had a chance to pick on him for a while, will get it out of my system tonight though.  :-P

Hold Hard guys and stay safe.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 02:24:25 (ZULU) 


Woops, meant to say no muzzle brakes. Thanks for catching my mistake. I need to prrrooofff read more betterer! I agree on the 30/06. Might get some of the older snipper guns in there.

I'm extremely pleased to hear that shorter barrels are in vogue now. How much do I need to cut off to make it stiffer? Have to tell Meatwoman bout this!

Bolt out for the night!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 02:46:11 (ZULU) 

Stiffer Barrels,  so exactly just what caliber are viagra tablets then?

Hey, the most popular hunting round in the world(its gotta be) 30-06 can't be out of date, maybe not as inherently accurate as the 308, but I bet it can still hold its own. and I just made up my mind to make mine a 20", its a mountain rifle so the couple of inches spared will drop a few ounces too. Pete L

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 03:31:46 (ZULU) 

20" .30-06?  Not me.  23" at least.

Another big news flash:  B-52s are killing and demoralizing bad-guys.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$BX43K5QAAM25ZQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/05/war105.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/05/ixhome.html

In the enemy camp.  Being the target of sustained B-52 bombardment definitely doesn't sound like fun.  Maybe they should have picked on someone else.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$BYIFYQAAAM33BQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/05/war405.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/05/ixhome.html

The "New Yorker" magazine's infamous Seymour Hersh is said, by the Pentagon, to be lying through his teeth about the Ranger/Delta raid on Mulla Omar's compound.  He's has been after them since Viet Nam.

http://drudgereport.com/flash.htm

It looks like we're going in in force, bombing through Ramadan, and fighting through the winter.  It also looks like we think we have a more effective winter operations ability than does the OPFOR.

And, are we going to have screaming headlines every time we take a few casualties?  I hate losing these fine men a lot worse than does some candy-assed Liberal newspaper editor, but - if we are going to win this - we are going to ratchet up our pain tolerance.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 04:21:16 (ZULU) 

An interesting viewpoint on Afghanistan

http://www.fredoneverything.net/Afghan3.html

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 05:11:17 (ZULU) 

To All:

Seems the short barrel thing is getting some interest!

Just to stir the pot a bit, I spent a very pleasant morning at the Albuquerque Police range with a shooting buddy (Gov't.) and his new partner, and had the additional pleasure of running into a former APD guy that I have met before but only see rarely. We burned up a few rounds through a fifty and had fun (Yes, 'lito, the brass will be coming to you!), but the real hoot was getting these guys to help me "break in the barrel" on the 20" Chandler.

Former APD guy proceeded to shoot a 3 shot group (and very quickly!) that was one hole at 100 yds...off the bipod with an unfamiliar rifle....consensus was that the 20" tube was no hindrance, and damn well handled. Shots at the steel silhouette at 400 were boring, even in NM wind (the cards that Lou Schwiebert made up for this rifle are the equivalent of a smart bomb). 500 yd steel was out of service (some fellow fifty shooter, apparently), but I will be going to the public range (600) soon, then out to the mesa, and will report.

Folks, if you get a chance to try out a short barrelled .308 made by somebody who knows what they're doing, you may save yourself some exertion in the field.

Heck, I might even convert Ken away from another ".308 Towed" project.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 05:49:43 (ZULU) 

.223 barrel lenth and accuracy

Down to a 10" barrel:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

Still look forward to the 26" 12FVSS .308 I have ordered.

David W <weldedwelk@twave.net>
Hickory, NC, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 08:48:00 (ZULU) 

Another pro short barrel study SWAT mag:

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

I think if the 12vss has not been shipped, I may get the 10FP instead, these guys are shooting .308 with 18 inch barrels and no loss of accuracy.

David W <weldedwelk@twave.net>
Hickory, NC, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 09:03:42 (ZULU) 


Stefan, going back to your helmet/Vest theory, I agree with you, a mate of mine( went to school together and joined up together, but he stayed infantry when I went to the Army tech college) he took 2 rounds of 762x54 i the ribs in NI, the vest stopped em, he broke 3 ribs and had some mega bruisin, but it saved his ass, My cousin Anthony took an AK round in the side of the helmet,(also in Ireland) now this is a few years ago so it would have been steel, It didn't penetrate for some reason, just made a damn great delve in the tin pot and skimmed off but it shattered part of his skull above the left eye brow and temple, and turned the poor guy into a virtual cabbage, he's got a plate in there since, can't work, career down the drain,can't stand loud noises, can't drive, gets dizzy basicaly buggered,brain dammaged, I wonder if a good kevlar bone dome would have improved is chances some, but you don't need much of a knock on the head to ruin your life, those shitty tin things we used to have where crap, you could pierce them with a bayonette, they where only good for cookin in.

I think a helmet thing for a sniper would be more of a hinderance than anything.

You heared anything from Marco lately,, Pete

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 09:18:51 (ZULU) 

Another pro short barrel study SWAT mag:

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

I think if the 12vss has not been shipped, I may get the 10FP instead, these guys are shooting .308 with 18 inch barrels and no loss of accuracy.

David W <weldedwelk@twave.net>
Hickory, NC, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 09:30:58 (ZULU) 

I'm actually quite surprised that the folks writing the article were surprised that the 20" and 18" barrels provided good accuracy.  After all, benchresters have been shooting short barrels for a long time, and if they weren't accurate, they wouldn't be doing it.

One thing I have to beg to differ on with this article.  The guy says you don't have to wear hearing protection when shooting the suppressed rifle.

I haven't shot a .308 with suppressor, but I've fired several other things.  The M-16 with suppressor was still fairly loud.  It was at least as loud as a .22lr round.  Of course .22lr is way quieter than the .223 without a suppressor, so it's a big difference.  But it's still enough noice to damage hearing.  If the actual muzzle blast isn't, then remember the .308 round is still going over twice the speed of sound, and the bullet will in fact generate a sonic boom that is capable of hearing damage.  I'm sure if you've ever been in the pits at a shooting match, and hear rifle rounds going just a few feet over your head.  They make a nice CRACK! like a firecracker.  That's the sonic boom.  And it's going to dmg your hearing over time if you aren't wearing protection.

Also, I just can't see why these cop agencies are going to .300 Winmag for urban encounters.  The article stated the .308's only good out to 800 yards.  I'd think some on this board would disagree.  Perhaps it's only good out to 800 yards with Federal GM 168s at 2600 fps or whatnot.  I guess the cops don't have the flexibility to load up the 175 at the higher velocity you guys have told me you are doing.

Even if we take this at face value, 800 yards in a city is a VERY LONG DAMN shot.  When most police sniper encounters are very short range, how can they justify the .300 winmag?  It sounds ludicrous to me.

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Monday, November 5, 2001, at 12:32:51 (ZULU) 


fredoneverything asks the question, "..am I missing something?"

The short answer is, "Yes."

We built airstrip in A'stan for the "long awaited" offensive on Kabul.  The NA have "long complained" that they don't get no respect.

"Long"?  The war is about six weeks old.  Reporters want everything now or they are going to hold their breath and stamp their feet.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20011105-44459115.htm

Short SITREP as presented on the Sunday news programs.  McCain's happier and we're putting in more FOs.  More FOs means more bombing.  That's a good thing.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011105-83927214.htm

NA has launched an offensive on Mazie-i-Sharif.  We're supposed to be bombing Taliban forces hard.If successful that's supposed to make the North logistially accessible:

http://wire.ap.org/?PACKAGEID=attacks-military

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Monday, November 5, 2001, at 12:46:34 (ZULU) 

I think the archives will bear me out. Short barrels were a bit laughable a few years ago. 97'. I was referred to in one letter from a supposedly knowledgeable sniper as a barrel butcher when I described cutting them off. Savage built a 26" 1/12 twist Police Rifle with a 26" barrel. I was using it for the enemy (coyotes) and being defeated regularly because of the large unwieldy barrel. I cut the sucker to 18" and a 1.5 min rifle shooting 3600 fps became a 3100 fps shooting .25 groups. That rifle has 10000 rounds at least and is still working today and holding better than 1 MOA.

Life has few rewards, but I see that sensible barrel length is now arrived to the Sniping Community. Does the heart good. There are a few reasons for shortening barrels. Often just the reduced velocity seems to help accuracy and that's not particularly commendable but it happens. The main reason I cut rifles is that the country I hunt dogs in is a lot like Afganistan in places. A heavy barrel will have me draggin ass by noon. That 2 lbs you cut off makes a difference and doesn't cost much in velocity especially in .308. I contacted Remington about my shorter barrel requests and was received about like a Camel in New York. Imagine my glee when some dealer pulled a short barreled Remington out of a box at a show where I was. It must have been a simultanous movement but I think the short barreled revolution for Sniper Rifles started right here.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 13:32:50 (ZULU) 

Bill, I hope it was not me who pooh pooh'd your short bbl thing.  I used to think short bbls would never work because the PSS's we had barely had enough velocity at 24-26" length.  Then I got some good short bbls that actually out performed the longer Rad bgton tubes.  Changed my mind.  Now I dont think a short tube is the way for everything.  You tell me I am going to shoot past six hundred yards and I will go for the long tubes 24-26" everytime.

On 308 versus 300 Win for police.  I see no reason for a PD sniper to go with a 300 win as a primary weapon.  The ones that do tend to want to make up for a lack of wind and range reading.  The penetration issue of a 300 win makes it not my first choice for PD work.  Love to compete against guys with 300's because after a few rounds the groups open up.LOL  308 is considered an 800 yard weapon by many but under good conditions shots at 1000 are not hard to do.  When they say 800 they mean under field conditions.  No range flags or marked yardages.  And yes 800 is twice the distance any police sniper has ever taken a shot so nopt an issue..

Undude

MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 14:10:34 (ZULU) 

Barrel length;

IMO any barrel length is as accurate as another! The only thing you get with a longer barrel other than more vel. is it is heavy and it will help dampen some of your tremors hence more accuracy! As for vel. loss with a 308 it burns a medium burning rate powder so you lose less per inch that you cut off but if it is a large case with slow burning powder your loss is much greater.

Just my two cents worth.

Jerry

Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 14:52:27 (ZULU) 

Just thought I'd jump in on the shorter barrel thread:

I shot a 6.5-06 with a 21" Hart barrel at the Texas match.  Hit 1000 yds consistently with 24.5 MOA and only needed 4.25 MOA on the windage with winds steady at about 14.  When I chrono'd it a few times it was shooting 2800 fps +/- 5 fps consistently using 49.1 grs of 4350.   Partners 308 at the match needed almost 40 MOA with 168's and about 9 MOA on the wind to reach 1000.  He had a 22" barrel on his rifle.

I am currently working on a 308 with a 20" Krieger fluted on it.  I've only got 120 rds thru it so far but it's a tack driver with both 155 Lapua's and 175 MKs.   Only difference is the 175s need 1/2 MOA more at 300 yds.  Both group about the same and are dead on at 100 with the same zero.

The only drawback that I have seen with shorter barrels is excessive flash and noise especially when firing at night.  You definitly light up the scope which causes you to loose your night vision temporarily and delays quick followup shots.

On the plus side I have found with the shorter barrel it seems to distribute weight more evenly instead of the rifle being front heavy.  This is especially noticable if you use a steel trigger guard and heavier scope.  The rifle balances better for me anyway.

As far as magnums go I would not go shorter than a 23" barrel because of fouling due to the excess powder charge.   I have found changing to faster powders to compensate tends to diminish the accuracy.   Keeping the barrel at 25 or 26" seems to be ideal unless you are shooting something like a 30/378 or similiar than 28 or 30" works best.

So when and where is the next match ????

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 15:02:29 (ZULU) 


Undude; It sure was not you! I think you turned out to be the Pioneer among credible people who tried it first. I know when Jerry Built you one I was sure happy to see it tried by someone who was a proven shooter that we all knew. I've noticed that people pay a lot more attention to competetion champions and professionals than they do Coyote hunters! HA! But  Coyotes DO pay more attention to coyote hunters though as that's a trade off!

Jerry Points out now and in the past as have Bill Wylde and others to me that accuracy doesn't neccesarily increase when the barrel is shortened. I know back in my benchrest (madness) days, I met several who thought the shorter barrel was inherently more accurate as was posted a few times here recently. I would definitely agree that when an apparent increase is observed it is always with a shorter barrel because it's very difficult to lengthen the same barrel.(adding quickly that I never cut a barrel that shot worse for accuracy). Another thing Bill or Jerry pointed out 'I'm sure either one could have'   is that the crown that's added when the barrel is cut off is almost always better than the factory crown thus increasing the possiblity for better accuracy. ) The lessening of velocity is the main reason for increased accuracy that I have thought I observed. When the range goes beyond 600 or 700 even the 70fps begins to add to the hitablity anyway. But again Life is a trade off. The plain truth isn't that predictable except there will be more flash and noise. Jerry has a cure for that one, it adds a little weight back but it's better than putting it on a long barrel.

The good thing is that we have all explored and exchanged some ideas and entered barrel length as a bona-fide consideration when planning a Sniper system. Well there's Ken... but he has a horse to pull his!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 15:22:26 (ZULU) 

'Lito,

What, if any, prep work do you perform on the Lapua brass?  That stuff is so purty out of the box it's just nice to look at :>)

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 15:22:42 (ZULU) 

Yo,

On the Unertl BDC question a few days ago.  It is a true BDC vice what is commonly called a BDC.  It has the drop for the M118 Match built into it.  WHen the scope is zeroed you can dial it on "1" and 100 yard sight setting is on, dial it to "3" and you have the theoretical sight setting for 300 yards.  It also has a fine tune dial under the main range dial so you can come down or go up from the range dial setting.

On most of the scopes out there today such as the M3LR the elevation turret is graduated in minutes and the distance settings are etched onto the dial.  So you actually are moving in 1 minute clicks.  On the Unertl when you go from the 100 to 300 you move 3 clicks which is equal to 8 minutes.

On our competition.  Looks like we will be working with Surgical Shooting, Inc and the USMC Scout/Sniper Association.  The ILR concept didn't work.  We wanted to go non-profit but that got squirly.  Instead I am starting a for profit gun club down here to run matches, bring in people to give seminars etc.

Ken, I'll fill you in on all of this in a day or two.

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
- Monday, November 5, 2001, at 15:44:29 (ZULU) 

Paul,

1911 mainspring housings - Flat always.  The arched housing gives too long a trigger pull for me and doesn't point naturally.

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 15:47:44 (ZULU) 

Lito,

All I can say is blast, damn and f$%^ing ball*%^s.  I annealed the cases as described then allowed them to air cool.  Would I be likely to cause any problems if I re-annealed them, i.e. making them too soft etc.?

As always comments will be gratefully received.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Monday, November 5, 2001, at 17:46:39 (ZULU) 


Dewman...

>"'Lito,  What, if any, prep work do you perform on the Lapua brass?"<

I put a primer in it, add powder, and stick a bullet on top! ;))

>"That stuff is so purty out of the box it's just nice to look at :>)"<

Yup... it's real nice brass.

On barrel length... 24" is short, 26/27 is medium, and 30 is long... and that's a fact, Jack!... anything less needs a holster!... and that's another fact, Jack!

;))

Jon B... go ahead and re-anneal them.  No worries Mate.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Official "H.R. 3076" Privateer... Loadin up my 175-SMks after dippin' them in pig fat... getting ready to get a REAL JOB ;)) HA! , - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 17:51:48 (ZULU) 


Gooch,

  Good to hear from you.

  We all look forward to matches.

  Please don't exclude those of us who are just "civilians".

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 17:58:58 (ZULU) 

Hogs - heads up... just received a copy of this old familiar virus from some turd in  united arab emrates...

sample text:

"Hi! How are you?

I send you this file in order to have your advice

See you later. Thanks"

DON'T OPEN THE ATTACHMENT... JUST IN CASE YOUR VIRUS SCANNER DOESN'T NAIL IT....

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 19:24:00 (ZULU) 

Catman; remember it's not the length or the breath or how it's hung it's what you do with it! 24" indeed!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 19:47:01 (ZULU) 

Ken' That virus uses the senders adr list. I got one from the same guy I bet. Makes you wonder what we are doing in the adr list.

Probably the guy that sends the money laundering schemes has got a virus from one of us!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 19:49:11 (ZULU) 

'lito..

    Told you so!! You just can't beat the Lapua brass.

Jon..

   If you don't have a tight neck rifle you "Should not" turn the necks all the way around to just clean them up. The recomendation is that you leave about a third of the case uncut on the necks.If you don't, you may have trouble resizing the case(Bullets will be loose).

  What you will find is the really good cases take off very little and the worst cases may take brass off nearly all the way around the neck. These cases should be looked on with some suspesion. You may also find some that turn off a "Heavy" amount on just half the case and not touch the other side, same with these. Good luck!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Monday, November 5, 2001, at 19:56:46 (ZULU) 

Hey, I got another question for y'all.

My brother was making an order from Midway and wanted to know if I wanted anything.  He mentioned that they had the Outers Foul Out 3 bore cleaning device on sale for something like $40 or so, so I asked him to get one for me.

What do you guys think about this device?  Is it safe to use?  Would *you* use it on the bore of your gun?  It's the device that sorta reverse-electroplates your bore with copper, in other words, instead of depositing the copper on your bore through electricity, it removes it.  I'm very curious to hear opinions.

Seth

ps:  last night I stood 200 bullets (168 SMKs) on their bases on a piece of wood and sprayed them with the Midway Air Moly spray can.  It looks pretty cool.  I baked them in the oven as per the can instructions to make sure the coating is fully cured and hard as it can be.  I haven't loaded up any rounds yet.  I'm anxious to see how it goes.  I had my brother order me the 2 oz. Moly Bore Prep gel or paste or whatever it is from Midway.  I hope to thoroughly clean the bore, apply this moly bore prep stuff, and start shooting moly bullets.  Do you guys use such a moly bore treatment, or do you just clean your bore and start shooting moly bullets?

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Monday, November 5, 2001, at 20:27:56 (ZULU) 

Gents,

Barrel length issue...

Been telling the ladies that short and stiff is the way to go for years! Actually have gotten a few to "test fire", as well. Oh, rifles!

The short stiff tubes have less vibration and tend to shoot well. If made well and loaded properly can compete with the longer barrel counterparts. MY personnal preference is for 26" heavy barrels. The short barrels are nice on surpressed weapons. Naturally, because of the added length of the "can".

LE use of the .300 winch. I don't know of an teams in the state of Oregon that use other than .308.

Lapua brass: "I told you so"!

Off to load some new Lapua .308...:-)

Rooseveldt Elk Season this Saturday!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 21:47:29 (ZULU) 

'yote Bate... >"24" indeed!"<

HA!... you're a piece of work too... if the BATF ever catches you with one of your 'yote riffles, they'll make you register it as a M700 snub nosed pistol ;))

Hey guys... can we NOT do "moly" AGAIN... Pleeeeeeeeeeeeese!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 22:06:49 (ZULU) 

These guys are 10 feet tall...

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/kurtz110501.shtml

...but not bullet-proof.

"OSAMA BIN LADEN's Arab bodyguards have begun marrying off their daughters and sisters to Afghan men around Kandahar in the first sign that they do not expect to survive the war."

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2001%2F11%2F04%2Fwwed04.xml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 22:20:54 (ZULU) 


What's wrong with Moly Catman?I use it to lube my shoulder holster before I put da 700 Super Shortee Sniper Rifle in it. Draws much quicker that way!! Don't put it on my bullets though! YOu drop em in da dirt and yuk!  You can use the stuff for face paint too! Almost forgot...Good for tannin Coyote ears!

Good Stuff CDC; I am reminded of the Desert Storm hand wringing. Elite Republican Guard, seasoned troops undefeatable.

Nobody makes war as good as Mericans! A suicidal religious fanatic is no different than any other target. I'll take a man that wants to go back home to his family any day of the week. They duck when theyre supposed too.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Monday, November 5, 2001, at 23:30:37 (ZULU) 

Sitrep. Among other things Marines and Army are to grab bases in forward operating areas fairly soon.  Yee Haw.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$54S52XIAAAIBTQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/06/wsas06.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/06/ixhome.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 00:43:57 (ZULU) 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 00:44:00 (ZULU) 

Subj: Charles Daly 1911's

Here's a question a bit off the long-range stick line, but I gotta

ask.  A close friend of mine recently bought a Charles Daly 1911 .45

This gun has yet to fire a full magazine without some sort of failure.

No matter what kind of ammo or whatever. He sent it back to the company for service and it came back, still not working well at all. Sent it off again three weeks ago and so far, no gun or reasonable reply from the company.  Any of y'all had any similar experience with Charles Daly or any suggestions as far as how to resolve this ? Any reply will be mucho appreciated

Thanx,

Aaron

Makes me appreciate my Springfield that much more !

Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Arkansas, - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 01:01:25 (ZULU) 

Greetings all from the Eastern mountains.

Deer season is just around the corner here; where there are no chronographs, everybody loads "up" from the manuals, and all the 7Mags {with hundred yard zeros} shoot "flat" out to 400yds or more. {gotta get me one of them!}

Have to weigh in on the bbl. length deal::Started shooting a Rem. LTR when they first came out{detachable mag model unfortunately] and have found the little gun so handy that any loss of performance is a most acceptable trade off..Shot the little bugger at Storm in '99 &'00 and the gun did all that was asked of it..It was great for stalking, and the tower was easier to manage due to the lighter weight and short length.  Velocity with Fed match is 2472fps and  it shoots .5s if I do my part..

Mark Kenton just sent me a custom cam for my LR M3 calibrated to the above rifle in yards..Anyone ever used these custom cams??  Can see some problems with varying conditions/elevations, but it seems to be an interesting concept, if it works.. will report more after field testing. Kenton Industries, Tuned Trajectory Compensator..

With all the necks swelling up around here;

You know your a red neck when checking the zero on your rifle means whacking the deer Xing sign up the road from uncle Bobs'.

CDC...Keep it coming..Info starved in the Mountains.

Outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Waitin' for winter in the Alleghenies, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 01:31:29 (ZULU) 


Pakistan is letting militants cross the border to fight us.  It really doesn't sound like there's much they can do to stop it.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$AAUTNUYAAANRNQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/11/06/wpak06.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/06/ixhome.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39557-2001Nov4.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 01:53:36 (ZULU) 

Quite a block party brewing it seems. Should we send a few buses to help them get over? I can see the busses now, marked "PARADISE".

The thicker the carpet the better the bombing. Holy war does have it's appeal. NOW PLAYING "Armagedon for DUMMIES!" At a Theatre of WAR near you.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 02:07:00 (ZULU) 

Ouch.  Really, OUCH.

I just found and read up a whole section of previous posts listed in the Hot Tips and Cold Shots section, and I see you guys have hashed over the whole moly thing many, many times.

I just ordered a 12 oz. can of spray moly and a 2oz tube of moly bore prep, and now I'm not inclined to use them.  At all.  Crap.  I wish I woulda read all that yesterday, or even earlier this morning.

I didn't see anything in the hot tips section on the Foul Out device from Outers.  I'd love to search the archives, but without a search ability it's pretty hard to find an answer.  I'd have to go to each month individually and try to scan down through a thousand posts or whatnot to find it.

I apologize for coming out with so many noob questions.

Sethbag <seth@pengar.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 02:40:45 (ZULU) 

Let me get this straight:

Pakistani dumb asses crossing a BORDER EN MASS to join the Taliwhackers. What the heck is wrong with this picture? Seems to me to be an extremely target rich environment for C130 Spectres or for t some of the troops taking much needed target practice.

Why the hell aren't we zapping the dudes when their big toes cross the line?????????

Non-military background confusion running rampant, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 02:54:26 (ZULU) 

Am currently working on a ghillie suit.  This is what I have so far.  It is being made with a Bush Rag kit.  Just got the jacket finished so far.  Was just wanting some info from some of you "professionals".  Thanks guys.

http://wsphotofews.excite.com/021/pq/95/Vb/8O96177.jpg

Jeremy Keen <Cypher214@MSN.com>
Jackson, MS, US - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 03:33:36 (ZULU) 

Seth; the only bad question is the one you don't ask. IT's just there is not much likely to come out that hasn't already on the Moly thing. The Outers rig works but it's kind of a lot of trouble to set up compared to just cleaning. I think it will do what it's designed to do though. I've not tried it myself... just trying to remember how it was reviewed by those who have.

It's been covered lightly but I think that was the general consensus!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
, KS, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 03:34:28 (ZULU) 

Found a Winchester Model 70 (pre-64) with "US Property" on the left side of the receiver.  I don't think the barrel is GI issue, it's 24" matte stainless steel. The bolt has been plated with a matte light golden color?  Stock looks like standard Winchester 1950's style. Action looks tired. Serial #301xxx. What's this rifle worth? Even with the stainless barrel and messed with bolt. Any collector value? Thanks

Larry <Waltomachine@cs.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 05:42:44 (ZULU) 


Gents,

  If any of you are in the area, this weekend there is a vintage rifle match in Boise. Not really sniper stuff, but the rules are stock, original WW1 or WW2 rifles. 50 to 200 yards, there will be various positions. It should be a blast. If you are interested, there is a link on Tac-Ord's website. ( these are the same folks that put on the Idaho state sniper match. )

   See Ya there.......

Loper <rifle30@worldnet.att.net>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 06:17:40 (ZULU) 


Sethxxx... When you are searching the archives, go to a month and open it.  Then go to the "edit" box on the upper left of your browser, and open it, then hit "find in page"... hit that, and a search box will appear, and you can do a word search of the whole page in seconds without scan reading the whole thing.

However... if you take a cold, rainy weekend this winter, and read the archives, cut and paste the stuff that interests you, you will have a tremendious resource that covers your particular interests.

My partner has one of those "foul-out" rigs (he has one of EVERYTHING!)... he swore by it the first week he had it, but hasn't used it in years... for what it's worth... it is a real pain in the ass to set up and use.

-

Boltster... I hear THAT on Specter targets.  In WW2, there would be a wall of bodies just inside the border... I HATE this "kinder, gentler, kind of war"!  It's starting to smell like Vietnam... If they are going to join the enemy, they ARE the enemy, and we should take them as we can... don't wait for them to get RPG-7's, an AK, and a month's training!

Saw on TV last night that we are dropping 15,000 pound "Daisy Cutters" on the Taliban lines...

... I Love the smell of fresh cut flowers in the morning!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 10:48:29 (ZULU) 

BUSHMASTER M17S

Although not a sniper rifle, thought I could get feedback regarding the following from some that have used this weapon:

1. Reliablility, jams, etc

2. Ergonomics

3. Design, the bullpup design, with chamber at your cheek

4. Suggested ammo/loads for accuracy

5. Gunsmithing

Thanks. Seems like a next gen AR15 with 21.25 inch barrel in 30 inch package.  Also with redesigned gas powered rotating bolt and easy cleanability.  Any military units using this in US?  THANKS

David W <weldedwelk@twave.net>
Hickory, NC, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 10:55:01 (ZULU) 

First things first.  I've read enough of CatShooter's posts by now to have some respect for the man.  Not only that, but I'm allergic to cats, and one of my fantasies for many years now is to take a sniper rifle out into a large open field with many cats and show the bastards what "scratchy throat" *really* means.

So, I've picked a new handle for the Roster.  It's Croaker.  If any of you read scifi/fantasy books, it's a main character in the "Black Company" line of novels by Glenn Cook.  Plus I just think it's a cool nickname.

Anyhow, regarding the Pakistanis who are crossing over into Afghanistan to "fight" (with their swords...) for the Taliban, well I'm in favor of NOT blowing them all up as soon as they put their big toes over the border.  I say let them go get treated like the cow dung that they are by the Taliban first, then let them study in detail the underside of a B-52.  Someone posted a link here to a story about some stupid British muslim who joined up with the Taliwhackers and they just treated him and his buddies like crap, then like cannon fodder.  I'd say let's let them all realize just how stupid a mistake they've made, and *then* send them to find out if their religion is really true or not.

As to the daisy cutters, all I can say is WOW.  I don't ever wanna be on the receiving end of one of those.  My question is this.  How many fuel-air munitions do we have in our inventory?  And the second question is this.  Why isn't that number going down day by day?

Croaker <seth@pengar.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 13:04:53 (ZULU) 

About Taliwackers,

CDC wrote, "These guys are 10 feet tall..."

That'd be a little over 3-1/4 mils @ 1,000 yds.

Thanks for the data.

;-)

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 14:07:48 (ZULU) 


Viet Nam?  The war is SIX WEEKS OLD!  We're stomping them to death like rats in the basement.  If the routes between Pakistan and A'stan become problematic, we'll deal with them.

This article describes the smuggling routes and financial mechanisms by which the Taliban receives arms from Pakistan:

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20011106-44827092.htm

The Taliban is fearlessly cowering behind Afghan women and children.  McCain said we have to kill them where we find them.  He's right, of course.  What else can we do?  We'll do something like drop flyers that say, "We're going to bomb right here.  Civilians move out."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44920-2001Nov5.html

Kissinger's take on what's next bears a careful reading.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45079-2001Nov5.html

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
"If they want a chance, let 'em go someplace else." - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 14:24:31 (ZULU) 


Hi,

  I was wondering if any of you had experience with the FN SPR. I'm going to have one coming to me soon and would like to know what i should expect. Thanks in advance.

-Roth

Paul Roth <AcidLauncheR@aol.com>
Northfield, VT, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 15:03:07 (ZULU) 

>"How many fuel-air munitions do we have in our inventory?  And the second question is this.  Why isn't that number going down day by day?"<

Cuz Fuel-air munitions are wimpy... They gotta lot of TV coverage in the Gulf thing, cuz they're real "pretty" when they go off... nice big ball of fire.  Looks real good on the 6 o'clock news (and doesn't endanger the news cameraman)... but they have a very low energy pressure wave.  They will trigger many types of landmines (like were used in the gulf war), and do it cheaply (cuz Fuel-air bombs are dirt cheap)... but they have little or no effect on hard structures (concrete or cinder block), or weapons.  You drop a fuel-air bomb on an AAA implacement, and after the ball of flame is gone, they come out of the hidie holes, and start shooting at the plane that dropped the bomb...

... on the other hand, the Daisy Cutter is true "High Explosive" (as in T-N-T) and there will be nothing left that is useful... all re-enforced concrete buildings, all weapons, cannon, tanks, trucks, will be useless, and any hidie holes will be collapsed, crushing those in them... and you will have a flat kilometer circle to land your helos in :)))

News men don't like Daisy Cutters, cuz they can't get close enough to film them for the 6 o'clock news, (they don't go home after the experence! :(((

Daisy Cutters are probably the most awsome (non-nuclear) weapon there is.

-

Andy's Dad... Bad puppy! >"That'd be a little over 3-1/4 mils @ 1,000 yds."<... I love it!

-

CDC  >"The war is SIX WEEKS OLD!"<... well, yeah man, get a grip on yo' rascally self!!!

This is the world of yuppy media "RIGHT NOW-NESS!"... in a world where we get all of what we want, food, credit, money, 40" TV's - RIGHT NOW, these pretty boys and girls on TV want stuff they can show "RIGHT NOW-NOW"... I mean, does Dan Rather(not) want to wait another few months for some good footage to go with his story... hell no, he has ratings to worry about... and that cute blond newswoman(person) doesn't want to wait 6 months for this damn war to end... she'll be on maternity leave, and will miss the ratings week in January - Poof, their goes her new contract... I mean, LISTEN... we have to get this war in a more visual basis, or those media guys will get bored and go to something else, and the public will move on with them... and it will become the war that went on for 60 years because everyone forgot about it, cuz the media didn't keep telling them it was going on!

Remember Haiti??? That little country that was in the Caribean??? Well of course you don't... the media hasn't mentioned Haiti in about 8 years.  My new Atlas doesn't even have Haiti on the maps... just a blank space, and a "?" where it was.  That's cuz when Clinton invaded Haiti (to cover one of his thousands of screw-ups), "HE" said we would be there for ONE YEAR... but since he never lies, and the media doesn't want to embarass him, Haiti just vanished from the news, and all other references (even though we still have troups there... where ever "there" IS).  And they will be in Haiti for 93 more years, until someone reads some old government archive, and says "Hey, what ever happened to the troups in haiti?"... then they will be called back.

You don't want the same thing to happen in "The 'stan", do you??? That's why we have to end this thing in the next month, or it will get lost in the christmas rush of old rerun movies with Jimmy Stewart, and we'll never find out if we won or lost the war, cuz aftr the holidays, some DC intern will get knocked up, and we'll be off to a new year of media madness ;))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 15:09:05 (ZULU) 

Pablo,  I'm going to have to disagree.  The boobs on the toob will get bored - no doubt - but the American People see something that clearly needs to be fixed.  We know that, if we don't stop them, the bad guys will be back for more.  The nice lady in the suburbs wants her children protected.  We do that by killing all the bad people.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 15:32:00 (ZULU) 

CDC... part of that was tongue in cheek... but Ye have more faithe than I, when it comes to thee American people (under 45)... I think little of most of them (them that don't own guns, or know the Constitution)... they don't have much belly for inconvience.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 15:36:52 (ZULU) 


On short bbls, 300s and cops:

There is a distinct difference between a Sniper and a "cop with a rifle".  I have seen all manner of rifles show up on the line over the years.  Occasionally (usually not) you'll see some guys PDs support them wholeheartedly and you'll see everything from AIs, Chandlers, TBAs, Gardeners and Nor-Cals with MK 4s, Nightforce and Simrads.  Others bring Mausers they barreled themselves wearing Redfields.  BY FAR most show up with a PSS/Varmint and a Leup 3.5-10, 4.5-14 or something close.  Most of the time these are issue weapons and the guys do pretty well with them for the jobs they are expected to accomplish.  Indeed, most police sniper shots have been taken with that very rig.  Sometimes a guy will bring his personal gun.  Rarely do you see a .300.  I have heard of some teams using them for airplane glass but that is a whole 'nother subject.  Intermediate barriers pose a different set of challenges for the LE Sniper, as does night vision and over-penetration.  Some Teams are equipped and train for it, some aren't/don't. (You terrorist pig f!%ker types will just have to guess which ones do and don't).

NOTE:  MOST cops don't have the money or time (some would say desire here depending on the viewpoint) to glean the knowledge or experience that many of the people on this site have.  Not many Undudes, Deputy Dougs, etc. around.  I have heard many competition guys poo poo the shooting experience of the cop snipers.  Very true in some ways.  But,on the flip side, many of the comp guys have never had to do it for real.  The comp guys are now screaming "all the reason for the @!#$%* cops to shoot/train more" !!!) In the cop's defense, sometimes things are out of the cop sniper's control due to money, shift schedules(money), training time(money) and equipment (money).  Most SWAT guys are SWAT officers part time and have full time regular cop jobs.  Many don't get paid for SWAT duty ( I don't).  Strictly volunteer work.  Having been on both sides of the fence (civvy comp vs. police), I see both points of view.  When you work extra jobs/shifts to pay the bills, momma ain't too keen on you running and doing your PT and then going to the range for hours on her and the kiddos time because the PD won't give you the time off.  Personally, I practice when I can, learn from everyone I can and try and pass it on.  Something Sinister, Lito, Doug, Mike, Andy's Dad or whoever says may save one of my men's life.  Lots of experience there.  I ain't whining guys, I love what I do. These are just some of the things that go along with it all.  For whatever excuse the cop uses, he's either ready for what comes or he ain't.  Same for his Department.  Unfortunately, many times the cops career and livelihood are in his departments hands.  The reaction of his own PD will many times dictate his fate.  Self serving admin types will sell you out quickly if it even looks like something may have gone wrong.  There is absolutely no room for error.  The guys that win the sniper comp may fall off the roof tomorrow.  The guys that lose the sniper comp may just save the day tomorrow.  You just never know.

Back to guns.  A .300 in an urban setting to me would be useless.  The shotgun houses in the ghetto won't stop a pistol round much less a 300.  I have heard that the SAS have hard (308 and up) and soft (22-250, etc.) kill weapons but don't know this for fact.  Sinister ? Peter ?  I guess it's like Gooch sez, if they need it, they can get anything they want.  It ain't that way with the cops in the States.  Sniper rifles ain't PC to start with  -  much less $ 4,000.00 sniper rifles.  No matter how much you preach the need for proper gear/ training, admin don't give a damn about liability until they're slapped with the suit.  "You can pay me now or pay me later" - so true. I've said it before and will say it again: A Soldier trains and trains to someday fight; a Cop fights and fights to someday train.

Back to guns.  I was a fan of short barreled guns long before they were cool.  That is because I am a pip squeak and also because of my shooting experience.  I cut my teeth on IHMSA pistol silhouette at 200 meters.  Friends have killed antelope out to 550 with their XP 100s and Wichitas w/ 14 " bbls.  A prone rifle shot at 300 is no sweat accuracy-wise.  However, the stresses (buck fever/match pressure) in competition/hunting as opposed to a callout where human lives hang in the balance are different.  Similiar, but different.  TO ME, most of the match/hunting stuff is self induced.  On a callout it seems that one has to deal with pressures from everywhere.  Usually dictated by the actions of the suspect and the action or (more likely) inaction by the police powers that be.  The pressure, coupled with the self induced stuff is tremendous.  How you manage all this directly effects your decision to shoot and indeed the shot itself if you decide to take it.  It has been my experience that all the macho shit goes right out the window and your nuts are in your throat.  However, the consequences of a miss on a callout are not comparable to the competition/hunting fields and as Sinister says, the loser (or a hostage or friend) dies.  Being a sniper is different than being a street cop.  It's easy to respond when someone points a pistol at you in a alley.  Police sniping is different.  I have friends who are prior military, were snipers and who are now cops and cop snipers.  (These types are damn few and far between).  They have said the same thing to me, relating the differences in a combat firefight where everyone is blazing away to military sniping which is - using their words - different.

Back to guns again.  My long 26" bbl stick hangs on every damn thing.  Rappeling, moving with it in a school building or getting it out of a car in a hurry is a pain in my scrawny ass. It is currently being re-barrled with a 20" Hart (albeit a heavy one - Straight to .920 at the muzzle or thereabouts).  While it's down, I've been toting my LTR.  Absolutely love the little thing.  It ain't the prone gun the other one is but for everything else, I love it.  It's handy as a hatchet and a whole lot easier to get out of a cruiser when you are seatbelted in, wearing all the crap a cop has to wear.  Add to that the tilt steering in the cars these days, bags full of clipboards, flashlights and all manner of crap a cop carries in the other front seat.  A short shotgun, carbine or the LTR is the ticket.  Would have been nice if the first responder at Columbine would have had one.

I talk waaaay too much.  Hope ya'll ain't gettin' tired of the SWAT stuff.  Out.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 15:50:34 (ZULU) 

Brian, well said!  I started life as a sniper with long bbls and big power (12-20)scopes and then started thinking about things a bit on my own.  Lets see I shoot a M14 (22" bbl)at 600 yards and kill the x rings with irons so why do I need a 26" twenty power scope to hit at three hundred.  My hunting rifle has killed more deer at 22" in 308 than any man should ever admit to so why do I need 26" for sniper work, unless the distances are huge.  So "The Rock" was born.  Just a plain tough little rifle with 22" bbl.  Its so handy I have two.  Now granted I gave up?  No I can still nail the target out to a 1000 yards so damm what did I give up but three pounds of rifle?  I still shoot 1/4-1/2moa groups so damm I guess I am happy.  Scopes on the 308 weapons are all ten or less power now.  Still prefer fixed ten power because its easier for my old brain to think in tens.  Six's and eights screw with my noggin.  On cops and sniping/shooting we are only limited by our own thoughts.

Bill I have to say your piece you did a couple of years ago started this whole thought on working with shorter bbls.  Now I go with the shortest bbl I can get all the powder in that caliber burned.  In 300 Win its 26 and in 338 Lapua/Ultra its 28".

300 Wing for Airplane glass.  Simple response I bet they never tested it.  Its still a 30 cal weapon and minus AP they are going to watch a bullet blow up.  I love the 300 Win but for LE work all you gain could be had by having your partner kick you in the shoulder.

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 16:19:34 (ZULU) 

Lito and Pat,

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.

Pat,

With the neck turning thing, I use a Redding Competition neck-sizing die which uses bushings that come in .001 increments, but doesn't have an expander ball.  I would assume, therefore, that the necks need to be perfectly concentric to get the best out of the die, which is why I clean up the whole neck.  As for tension, I select a bushing -.003 of the loaded neck and size them.  Please comment if you still think whole neck turning is a bad idea with this set up.

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 17:50:17 (ZULU) 

Oh Distributor of Feline FUBAR,

I've been out of town for a few days, but I got your response to my question about Ballistic Coefficients.  Thanks.  I also got some Lapua brass to try out.  I hope I see the same improvements that you did.  I also got some of the Berger VLDs.  I figured that they are the same weight and of pretty similar design, so they can't fly too much different from the Sierra bullet, can they?  All for now.

Semper Fi

Steve

Steve <TeufelHund7599@cs.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 18:07:27 (ZULU) 

Right on Brian,

My dept used to have a R*u*g*e*r fan Sgt. Mini 14's for entry guys, M77's for Snipers. Times have changed & but not necessarily always for the better. At least weapons have. As said, no big $$ units, just sound ones.

Damn right, most training time is voluntary, some of it mansdatory. Big budget cuts since 09-11.  Kinda strange how times you need things most is usually when they are cut most in this field.

Undude: ...On cops and sniping/shooting we are only limited by our own thoughts...  AbsoFrigginLutely right on too. All the books in the library don't mean squat if one does not put to use.. creative use.

ps. Anybody looking for FAL type rifles, the folks at DSArms are first rate. Visited them the other day (hour drive away) got tour of shop, mucho mil stuff; mini gun, SAW58's, M2, Brens, belt fed stuff, etc, ended up ordering a carbine just for screwin around. Hadda take a cool shower when I got home. :)

Oh yeah,  CDC, keep up the good info work.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo <diver1@acronet.net>
K town, WI, US of A - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 18:10:46 (ZULU) 

Brian and Mike I agree 100%.  Short barrels are not new and they have been around for many years.   My 308 SSP shoots well out to 200 yds with a 14" barrel and the custom Rem 700 mountain rifle with a #1 contour barrel at 20" in 308 is a tack driver.   Well at least the first few rounds.   Great deer rifle and it only weighs 6 lbs scope and all.

Mike I'm not so sure I agree with you on the 10x scope any more.  At my age the eyes aren't as good as they use to be so the powers been increasing and the objective has been getting larger.   It just has to be that way.  Kind of starts to defeat the purpose of a short barreled rifle.    But don't worry I know your not far behind me.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 18:26:36 (ZULU) 


Taliban/Al Queda training and deployment.  They say that they are going back to A'stan to fight.  That would be a VERY good thing.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134362665_camps05.html

Interesting technical information on our targeting capability:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-miller110601.shtml

As to my faith in the sustained interest of the US:  Unless he dies, Bush has at least three years and probably seven.  Congress authorized him to do whatever it takes, so his actions aren't constrained by public boredom.  In any case, Bin Laden handed Bush all the propaganda material he will ever need and he controls the "Bully pulpit".  The President is a fighter-pilot who knows the stakes.

We will win.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 18:53:51 (ZULU) 

Andy's dad, a little over 3-1/4 mils.. love it,

Brian, the SAS use(d) Tikka rifles in 22.250 for some applications, varmint type bullets, rapid expansion, not to much over penetration, I don't know if they still do, Ive lost touch since leaving the service. I also remember a police marksman shooting an escaped male lion with a 222, when I was a kid(rather him than me !! but he killed it, 1 shot)

Ive seen cops with Remmy 700's sat in Ultimate sniper stocks, Im sure they are 308's,( one was used to dispatch a run away Bull near home a couple of months ago) and some AI's too also 308, When we get a big cat scare at home(now thats an interesting one), they tend to patrol the area with 12g shotguns loaded with buckshot, and Ive seen variouse rifles, Parker Hales,Enfields, Lakelanders, remmie 700's, sako's, 308's 243's it depends on what the Police force has sat in the armoury, certainly there are also a few HK's in there too. Now in northern Ireland I saw cops armed with 30cal carbines,HK's and parker hales. not sure what they use today, but they use 150gr Lapua Mega hunting ammo for much of their work.

I would hope that the forces in the UK have got rid of much of the junk by today, but the Government do not invest enough in the Police force, their equipment or their training, and the same goes for most of the Army, navy and Airforce, some holds true for most of Europe, and from what you've said the US too.

Pete L.

Peter Lincoln <anke_pete@t-online.de>
D - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 19:52:16 (ZULU) 

Hogs,

I've been rather busy the last couple of day on the Bookstore.  It seems that, unless I actually add new books, you guys start buying less, and I get less of a commission.  So I've been working a bit on that.  I added a number of interesting-looking videos as well - soon I'll probably have to split up the videos page and place it under the other relevant pages, at the bottom of each, or something like that.

But what I wanted to ask.  When looking at one of the books on the "Snipers" page, I saw a CD-ROM called "The Sniper's Ultimate CD-ROM

" from the Department of Defence.  Anybody got any idea what that is?  I added it to the bookstore.  The Amazon page says "1500 pages" - is this a collection of the relevant manuals?  Or...?

BTW, I can't remember seeing mention here on Henderson's followup on " Marine Sniper : 93 Confirmed Kills" named "Silent Warrior : The Marine Sniper's Story Continues" - did I just miss it?  That's also in the Bookstore now.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 19:55:43 (ZULU) 

SCOPES:  Had a guy on a deal in '94 holding his family hostage.  The target house had two separate front doors, a side door and bunches of windows. One sniper.  Was using a straight MK 4 10X w/dots, 55 yards, at night.  No NODS.  No lights.  No moon/stars/ambient light.  Bisected the angle on the three doors and spent all night swinging from opening to opening.  Sucked.  Wore my young ass out.  Would have loved to have had a 3.5 -10 on that gig.  I currently use a Leup 4.5-14.  I can turn it down to get max use of light gathering at night with a 42 mm obj. and up if I need to describe the lock on a door to the entry boys.  I don't have to carry a spotting scope and the 4.5 still gives decent field of view.  But, I also have the MK4 10X, and a 6.5-20 EFR on other rifles.  My guys all have 3.5-10s on their city sticks.

Brian
 
 

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 20:38:45 (ZULU) 


HENDERSON'S 2ND BOOK:  This book is the stuff that didn't make the editors cut in the first one. Who knew the 1st would become a military classic. Silent Warrior is apparently a money maker for the author. Decent read. I understand that the Hathcock family did not get one damn dime from it though. Didn't find this out 'til I had already bought it. Pissed me the f*!@ off. An article about Gunny appeared in the June 01 issue of PS. ALL proceeds forwarded to Jo/Sonny Hathcock. I just ain't about making money off a Marine hero.

Couldn't sleep with myself. Anybody wants to talk about it further, give me a call 409.983.8643.

Brian

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 21:17:25 (ZULU) 

Paki's heading for Afghanistan-  I'd imagine the local head politician is thrilled to death.  Let his opposition go to another country and get themselves killed! :-))))))))  Did rather enjoy his press conferences.  When was the last time you saw a President wearing jump wings?

Seth- If you have any connection to LE you might give serious thought to changing your "handle" back.  Your attorney can argue all the fine points of the character's persona all the wants, the name will hang in the courtroom like the aroma of a long dead cat.  Same if you're not LE and get involved in an otherwise justifible shoot.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 21:39:25 (ZULU) 

Guys,I got a question re guns,can anyone tell me anything about a rem78 sportsman?All I can get from rem is that it is a budget 700.A mate is looking at one in good cond stricktly for hunting.Are they worth a chance or are they crap?

Thanks

Gavan Willis

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 22:12:26 (ZULU) 

OK, I admit I haven't kept as abreast of US weaponry as I used to, and the following story has me a bit confused.  Is this just a case of some weapons-ignorant reporter cobbling together something from previous, unrelated weapons descriptions?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/11/06/ret.nalliance.offensive/index.html

The description in particular is this one:

"At least twice, Pace said, U.S. forces dropped the biggest

 non-nuclear bomb in their inventory -- a 15,000-pound fuel-air

 explosive nicknamed a "daisy cutter." Dropped by parachute, the

 bomb spreads a flammable mixture over a large area, igniting it

 when it strikes the ground."

Now I know during Vietnam the US would drop a big bomb that had a large rod sticking out the end, causing the bomb to go off like 10 or 15 feet off the ground, whose purpose was to blow down a large amount of trees and foliage to provide an impromptu LZ for the helicopters.  It was my understanding this bomb was called (at least colloquially) Daisy Cutter, but I thought it was only something like 4000 lbs.

So, what bomb is legitimately the Daisy Cutter, and what are its stats?  What is the 15000 lb bomb we dropped at least twice on the Taliwhackers?

re: nickname

Yeah, Croaker's probably not all that wise if one fears enemy lawyers.  I dunno.  I've noticed not everyone has a "handle".  Maybe I'll not have one for a while till one fits.  Whatever.

Seth "To Be Determined" Leigh <seth@pengar.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 22:18:44 (ZULU) 


"TBD"... (HA!).

Now CNN... that's a real weapons reference for ya'... same ones that refered to "assault bolt action rifles", some years back.

The Daisy Cutter was the BOMB in VN, and came in two sizes, 15,000, and (I think) 7,500 pounds.  It is made of very "high Velocity" explosives (in the TNT catagory), to have a concussion wave that would "Cut" the trees off at the roots (and everything else within a klik).  The clearing of trees is where it got the name Daisy Cutter.

The Fuel-air bomb was developed some 25-30 years later, to develop a low energy concussion wave that would clear large areas of mines by triggering them... but, although it looks real cool, it has very little "blowing up stuff" power... it works by having a small charge burst a large barrel of diesel fuel into a mist, then after a few seconds, a second small charge lights the mist.

It looks like an explosion, but technically, it's a "Whoosh", or conflageration... the velocity of this conflageration is very low... somewhere around 800 to 1,000 fps (you can actually see the flame front go through the mist, whereas a Daisy Cutter's velocity of propagation is up in the 18,000 to 20,000 or better fps.

Fuel-air bombs push... Daist Cutters smash and crush (in in quadruple spades).

The bimbo's and "suits" on CNN think all guns are AK' or M16s, and all big bombs are "Fuel-air Daisy Cutters" HA!... Whadda bunch of assholes!

-

(I just got an e-mail from a Rosterfarian that said:

"I think I'm gonna see if I can get a job working on a C130 as the "Daisy Cutter Shover Outter").

... HA!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Osama Yo'Mama & Co... no need to run, you'll only die tired!, - Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 22:52:17 (ZULU) 

hey guys,

 got a question for you all, i got a new rem 700 and the safety is really stiff. i mean its hard to push it off and its noisy as hell.

what i can i do to fix this problem

thanks

mike

mike odom <darkeru@aol.com>
- Tuesday, November 6, 2001, at 23:47:58 (ZULU)