Sniper Country Duty Roster

November 10, 2000 - November 18, 2000


Link to the legality of these morons challenging the ballot.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment110900d.shtml

I, for one, don't doubt that the democrats dominate the dumb-ass vote.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 01:48:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.110)


AR-50 riffles???

Anyone of youz bums have any knowledge of the "AR-50" riffle.

I saw one briefly at my dealers today... he had ordered for some other guy.
Looked beautiful... all 42+ pounds of it... my heart's still going pitty-pat!!

I definitly could live with one of those puppies in my house:))

Youz guys got any personal feedback?... OK, I'll take rumors!

Dean M. (Trigger 50)... You out there lurking. Lemme know what you think of them.

------------------------------------------

I made a copy of the Florida ballot off the internet, and gave it to my son (who is 8!)... and did a "If you had to pick "gore", which dot would you color?"... by my wrist watch, it took him four seconds to get it right!

I had a friend that said "All food should come in cans... that way, people that are too stupid to use a can opener, won't live long enough to breed!"

He called it "Social Darwinism!"

Why should adults that have the mental skills of a 4 year old, even be in the election process at all...
(OK Bravo... I know it's constitutional).
... but then if they are too stupid to punch a hole in a ballot, what bit of political knowledge to they posess that makes them fit to help decide how the country should be run???
None... So make the ballots like a kiddie maze on the place mats at "Dutchess" or "Big Boy"... and if the voter can figure it out, they are smart enough to vote.

Got ma' 10mm smokin' and I'm ready to go back to Robs bunch, and get whipped again ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:01:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)


'Lito: it's not a question of Constitutionality. It's a matter of common sense. The voting observers are required to assist if need be. If I were a parapalegic, and I rolled into the polling station in my wheelchair, they would be required to assist me in filling out my ballot to my contentment. If I screw up my ballot, they're required to trade me out a new one (upon request). If I'm too stupid to punch the hole, they're required to help (upon request). "Excuse me, but I'm too stupid to figure out how to punch this hole, could you show me which end of this thing to stick in that hole? Oh, and what's the name of that communist guy again?". If I don't understand how to fill it out, they're required to educate me. Anything short of this is an offense for which they can, should, and would be arrested. As for my son, he voted twice this election. Once with my wife and once with me. But to keep him intellectually honest, only Daddy let him punch the holes. It was interesting the talk we had about the "bad man" that was trying to be a bully and take everything away from us. Why is it that our kids can see what adults can't? Are they that brilliant (yeah!) or are the others that incredibly stupid? Never mind, I know the answer to that one, and it involves canned food and social Darwinism. I'm no elitist, but I will concede that there are several gene pools out there that could use a healthy dose of chlorine.

BTW: Bush's camp have grown a backbone. They now are on record as saying that if algor doesn't concede the race, they will protest the voting fraud in five different states. And it's documented. They'll win. Nixon had a real reason to question the ballot count, but didn't "for the good of the country". Too bad algor couldn't take a lesson.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
LET IT START HERE!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:26:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.244)


Bravo-Dude-ski...
Now I gotta beat up on you.
I wasn't talking about parapalegics, quadrapalegics, or any other kinde of "?palegics"... or blind guys, or wheeled chaired guys... or even guys that say "Hey lady, I want to vote for freddie, but can't figure this out"... I got no problem with them.

I got a problem with the dingleberrys that vote, and go home, and the next day, when their guy looses, then jumps up and says, "Not fair, I punched the wrong hole, cuz I didn't understand it!".

I voted for (you know who), and now, I can't remember what line the switch thing was on... how does somebody remember several days later, which dot they punched?? Cuz some slickster "TELLS them what to say"!

'lito
 

Pablitoi <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)


Howdy folks,

this presidential erection has given me a softie, my gut is tellin me Bush has it, but those goddamn democraps are bound to screw us over, I only have one word for it, and it's not nice.

Darren, the only way you can get an 11.25" twist in a .308 is if I get every autograph from the Raiders, and some of the A's. Maybe a helmet would be nice. LOL!!!! Oh, I mean, I'm serious!! heheheh...hope to see ya out here, I'll keep my eye out for ya

I think I can get H-S to go standard on 11.25 twists, gimme some time, let me know if this is the real shit. Ballistically 168's and above it is no contest, IMHO.

Pat, is lock stock and barrel fairly competetive for reloading equip?? I've heard I can go the same for less elsewhere............

I have about 40 45" 50 cals to make here within a few weeks, I may not keep up with the email as fast as you'd hope, but I'll do my best.

PeteR:

talked to my dad this week, says the pheasants are lousy East River, he's really rubbin' it in
 

check ya later
 
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 02:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.14.14)


I believe the worst of us could read and punch out the right hole in that ballot from 100 meters. Looks like someone from Florida could do it with a pencil from close.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:03:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Just checked the news,Isee the democrats continue to be the main source of public embarrasment to a great many of those capable of self thought,God do these sheep ever go away?
Rabon <fairchase@iwon.com>
Alaska, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:06:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.151.181)
All,

Well I got one blue print for a .50. It was semi auto though. What I may do is re-design the Weatherby Mark V action. I intend to enlarge it to accomadte the .50, this is a proven design. I prefer to work with a bolt gun. Anyway if any of you have any blue prints that detail measurements and dimentions please let me know.

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmaI.com>
USA? - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:10:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.211)


Rabon: sheep don't go away naturally, but a predator takes many out at once. Oh, and while we're on this parallel, sheep are so incredibly stupid that they will voluntarily ruin their own habitat, making their area unlivable for all animals except predators. Sound like any country you can think of?

Patron 'Lito: we're shooting at the same target here, really. My point was that the system is set up to handle everyone, regardless of disability, physical or mental. What we have now is a source of mentally substandard individuals that can't admit that they're stupid at the time, and look for someone to blame it on later. Egos are evil things in some people, notably the condescending mental midgetry.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
LET IT BEGIN HERE!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:18:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.244)


Slugboy: What kind of jungle did you operate in? Second growth, triple canopy or something different? You mentioned that "Country Snipers infiltrated to positions on main tracks/roads at night." And you said that, "Snipers then lay up at road sides in order to gain maximum view forwards." Does that mean that the opfor didn't patrol those roads at night? They didn't set ambushes? Did you have intelligence to indicate that your operational security was unlikely to be comprimised by moving on tracks? As you know, there's often a trade-off between ease of movement and risk. That type of movement sounds risky. Do you have any comments? Why was the jungle so difficult to move through? (Any of you guys who haven't trained in the jungle should hold the obvious comments. It ain't like Tarzan movies.)

At what ranges did you observe opposition forces and engage targets? Was your rifle capable of neutralizing the enemy's armored personnel carriers under the conditions you expected to engage them? Were they track vehicles or rubber tire?

You said that, in the event of an enemy assault, you were tasked to engage the enemy from the rear. I would assume that your primary means of doing so would be to direct mortar fire onto their positions. Is that correct? Did you think that you had enough mortars at your disposal to repel such an attack? Were their expected lines of communication and staging areas obvious enough that you were able to pre-plot your target areas? Would they be forced to concentrate in small areas for an attack?

Again, if you are unable to answer these questions, we understand.
 
 

Pablo, Bravo, I understand that it has been ruled on so there is that all-important precedent. I posted the link. Here it is again.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment110900d.shtml

(Disclaimer: All I know about the law is that, except for Old Dog, I can't stand lawyers.)
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:38:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.89)


Just checked the news, I see the Democrats(a continual source of public embarrassment to many of us) and their band of followers(quite a bit like sheep)have now acquired the skills of greedy attorneys to
deliever unto us another helping of,you guessed it: More public embarrassment. God do these people ever go away?
If you are incapable of answering a multiple choice question, perhaps you should ask your mother to chaparone and assist you,if the stress is to great bring your analyst along,between the bunch of you,maybe you can figure out a simple ballot, if you still can't get it:Apply to the democratic party their always looking for this level of competence
good night
 
 
 

Rabon <fairchase@iwon.com>
Alaska, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:46:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.151.181)


Hey guys,
Would anyone be able to help me, im considering purchasing a GPS want quality and prefer something thats waterproof. Thanks for any help and keep the shots long.
Ps: i know the 08 is great but does any one else love the 7mag?
Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
Pa, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 04:53:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.20.71.177)
JR@H-S
I just sent an email to your hotmail. If the BS in Washington keeps up I may need to send more money to rush my HTR 308. The way things are headed we could be close to Civil War!! That is if Gore pulls this election out of his ASS! Just how pro-gun is Bush? Can he really undo the harm that has already been done? I sure hope he(Bush) will live up to my expectations! Daren
Daren Yancey <darenyancey@hotmail.com>
Idaho, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 05:50:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.141.169.8)
Gentlemen, as you all have, been keeping track of the debacle, I remember a saying once that an owner of the company I worked for said about his anebriated son.
Thought it quite nicely fit the bill, for what we have been witness to.
We were having a company wide open house, all our customers were invited.
The owners son, was several sheets into the wind, and was taking some customers on "a tour", of our establishment.
Upon seeing said son, in this condition, slurring speech and in general impressing NO one, the father said within my hearing distance to a couple of other customers he had known well for many years.
"There goes a prime example of why some animals eat their young!".
I think this same comment applies to our illustrious Democratic party, it fits so well.
A house divided against itself cannot stand............I fear we are already past this point.
Sorry for the rather off topic post, but after reading some of yours, I felt it fit rather well.
Pray for the country we so dearly love.........God knows we need it.
Two Shoes
hadagutfullintexas
Terry <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 06:34:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.29)
It astounded me how Jesse Jackson was able to respond and get down to Florida faster than a quick action response team can get to an airport when there is a plane hi-jacking.
 

NAACP, Jesse Jackson, James Carvel, and the rest of the attack dogs, it's no wonder these people are often considered the enemy. They don't know how to act with dignity or honor.

I'll try to go out shooting here tomorrow or over the weekend so in my next post I can talk about something other than politics and the "CryBaby Party."
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 07:12:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)


Hey, guys, we need some comic relief. I saw this poster in Munich some years ago and finally found a copy locally. It made me chuckle and is vaguely sniper-related. See if it tickles your funny-bone. LINK
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 07:13:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.221.31)
Mista' Slug Boy,

Nice posts again!

How about some performance info on your duty ammo, what do you chaps shoot/carry for the .338/416 Lapua AI's - FMJ, API, other?
Field performance of ammo on static and hard targets?
 
 
 

Rabon,

Democrats as Sheep????? now don't go slurring the West Virginny State animal! Plus you can kill'em and eat em (sheep that is) and they are awful tasty.

Democrats - old - stringy - taste like Geritol Gaaaaaaaaahski
 
 
 

JR,

On top of ALL the political turmoil you have to bring up (taunt me) ringnecks again! :-) Hmmmmmm oven baked cackle chicken with roasted taters & ham n green beans.
 
 

********************************************************************

Folks- In spite of all the recent Y2KPOLLY CRAPSKI -
 

PLEASE REMEMBER ALL THE VETERANS WHO DIED, OR WERE MAIMED, TO KEEP US FREE AND ABLE TO BITCH ABOUT WHAT WE DON'T LIKE. God Bless them!
 

********************************************************************
 

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 11:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.49)


All: HAPPY 225th Marines!
 

Today is the Marine Corps Birthday! Semper Fi!
 

Ken :)
 
 

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 12:02:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)


What do you call a Gore supporter who can't read or write?
 

A "Gore-on"

*:-0
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 13:14:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.62)


"Help me Doctor, I see STUPID people ..... everywhere all the time!"
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 13:39:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Let's let people who are unable to find their ass with both hands pick the president. To those Dade County retards we could add the faculties of Ivy League universities and the editorial board of The New York Times. All three came to the same conclusion.

What's that tell you?

Do you suppose changing the term 'fool-proof' to 'democrat-proof' would be fair to fools?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 14:50:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.58)


CDC,
I think that democrat-proof refers to something that can't be overturned in a court decision.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 15:17:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)


First, I'd like to thank the people who will respond to my questions.
And thanks for the wealth of knowledge and this site that adheres us pro gunners together.
I am personnaly an M16 guy. I know, boo hiss hiss. I recently am the owner of a Steyr scout rifle in .308. Please bear with the seemingly ignorant questions.
Questions:
1. I know .308 and 7.62 are not identical, Is it bad to shoot 7.62X51 military through my rifle?
2. How do I break in/clean the barrel?
3. Weapon system not negotiable, is the 6X40 Springfield Govt scope a viable option? The scout scope it came with is not what I need for longer range (more than 200M) shooting. Without gouging my wallet, what other good scopes exist. I have some use with the Govt model with outstanding success.
4. What rings should I use?
5. Moly, Fail safe, etc. I am used to using one type of factory ammo and sticking to it religously for consistancy sake. What ammo is viable? What should I stay clear of?

Thanks again for your time and knowledge in regards to my situation. I also appoligize for any spelling errors. I am a USAF combat rifle instructor, not a literature major.

Charlie Mike (Continue Mission)

Ray
Ray <iamdangerclose@cs.com>
Las Vegas, NV, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 15:36:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.154)


I am considering buying a leatherwood scope form navy arms. i was wondering about the reliability of the scope and whether or not it works as advertised. If any one could give me the high and low points of the scope it would be most appreciated. Thanks, PAUL
Paul Lauer <pshooter45@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:18:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 141.139.60.210)
I am considering buying a leatherwood scope form navy arms. i was wondering about the reliability of the scope and whether or not it works as advertised. If any one could give me the high and low points of the scope it would be most appreciated. Thanks, PAUL
Paul Lauer <pshooter45@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:19:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 141.139.60.210)
Happy 225th to my brothers and sisters.

Long live the United States, and success to the MARINES!
Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:27:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.33)


BRAVO:

I hear what you are saying about the Whitman incident. And I must always not try to speak as an know it all, particullarly on incidents I wasn't at.

But, what I read about that incident, was that it was guys with hunting rifles (those nasty "civilians..") who made any contribution to suppressing Whitman. The police apparantly only had pistols and shotguns.

And maybe a fully trained sniper team would have outmatched Whitman by a longshot, but, thats the name of the game. Any time you have a guy gunning down civilians with even basic military/hunting skills, its pretty serious.

Also, a trained sniper team will be thinking perhaps a bit more about other issues, such as "where can I shoot from that provides an adequate backstop against my round to avoid collateral damage etc." than the average guy with a patrol rifle.

I see your point and respect it. Lot's of LEA's issue "patrol rifles" to their patrol units now and that might have saved the day.

However, the Whitman incident was one popular incident which did lead to the evolution of police snipers. There have obviously been several more incidents where they have been highly beneficial to police/public safety.

And while I have strong feelings about Ruby Ridge, that is the exception to the rule and not the norm. Not that its excusable in any way, shape or form.

I think LTC Plasters book, the Ultimate Sniper has a section about this incident.

Keep those beers a brewing! See you around!
 

Jeff
Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:46:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.44.194)


I am possibly in the market for a new rifle, had to part with my Rem. 700 VS-SF(P) / Leopold Tactical 4.5-14X40 about a year ago and am jonesing for a new rig.

Probably will get an identical scope the rifle is the only question

Choices are Rem. PSS or Rem. LTR i can get either for $699

First off is this a good price for these rifles?

Secondly which would you recommend?

I understand the velocity lost by the 20" over 26" barrell is negible with .308

Understanding manufacturing variables in a production rifle which "should" be more accurate?

Thank you all
Geoff
Geoff <sgtgeo@hotmail.com>
Raleigh, NC, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:53:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.86.252.33)


Ray: First off, the predictable M-16 boo hiss hiss. Now then, I shoot 7.62 NATO, not 308, but that's for my rifle which is built for such. A bolt gun can shoot both. The major differences are in powder burn rate and chamber pressure, although a 7.62 is proofed to take thousands of 308's. In other words, have a blast. If it chambers, shoot it. As for break in of the barrel, I clean 'em. After I shoot 'em LOL. Gale McMillan prevented me from doing any of that, and I'm still perfectly happy. As for the 6X40, I have no personal experience. But my money still goes to Lupita. Rings would be determined by the bases, but there are lots of good options. I use the ARMS #22's because I can go from scope to iron sights in about 5 seconds. No moly. I don't purchase my ammo, but I trust Mike in spades, and when he says Black Hills is good, that's what I would bank on. USAF in Vegas? That would be Nellis, right? How about some good dope on the range and competitions down there? I've got intel they're there, but would like some specifics before I try to enter an AFB with a M-25 and an expired Army car sticker ;-)

Ken: Yup! Happy Birthday USMC! I'd forgotten all about today with the distractions of possible global anihiliation. After all, I doubt China knows that we're in a near state of civil unrest, with a lame dick (er, duck) president, and Tiawan doesn't mean anything to them anyhow. But as the semper fidellis has taken history, it will proceed in the future. All out!

And I think I got a cursed starlight case. I was mad about not being able to go shooting, so I left Betty Lou in the case waiting for good weather. It rained for almost 3 weeks solid. So last night I load her up again for this morning, and wake up to a solid foot of snow. It's dumped over another foot on me since I woke up. Heck, after shoveling the drive, my wife took off (not 15 minutes later) and there was another inch on the pavement! Well, atleast the feds will have a hard time getting up the hill HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
time to stay at home and read "a time to hunt", USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 16:57:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.181)


I know this is still off-subject, but this is a good link. National Review is doing good work.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment111000b.shtml

Bill R already hinted at this, but consider the following Tom Clancy scenario: Gorewinkle appears dumb enough to think he's going to blow off the constitution and O.J. jury his way into the presidency. Professional rabble-rousers are in the process of whipping the inner cities into a Rodney-King-Riot frenzy. THIS ADMINISTRATION does not understand violence but has the power to put troops in the streets. The troops didn't vote for him and don't like him.

There are some mean and merciless people overseas who don't like us and are watching closely. One has the power to disrupt our life blood which is our oil supply. It is the responsibility of THIS ADMINISTRATION to deal with those people while defending the constitution domestically.

The outcomes of these events are completely unpredictable. I expect it will all blow over like that Y2K nonsense.
 
 
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 17:00:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.76)


Jeff: Right-o! And I wasn't there either. And what you took away was very true, the student populous showed up with standard hunting rifles, but he didn't offer enough target mass for them to be effective. Just like someone at TU to be rude. The sad part is that you were right on with the shotgun and pistol stuff, that's what the police had, and what they used. But at that range, shot has virtually no chance of hitting a small target, Wild Bill's "a bullet has to go somewhere" not withstanding. A fully trained, no, half trained sniper team, no, a serious civvie and lazy unprepared sniper team would have outmatched
him. At the time I thought it would be a tough shot (because of the size of the target) with my hunting rifle. At this point in my life, it would have been a called headshot with a CCB, and I'm no sniper. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely. I seriously doubt that a patrol carbine would have done much good, and the point you made about collateral dammage and stray shots was extremely valid. From my viewpoint (around the music building if memory serves), if I had been shooting, the shots would have had nowhere unpopulated to go.

On Lon Horiuchi: I will feel much more at ease when I grab the carton of milk in the morning and see his face on the side. That he is afforded witness protection status is in my mind indefensible. I don't want to start an uproar with you pro-Lon guys, this is just my mindset.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
happy birthday USMC!, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 17:13:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.164)


As for the demos and their nonsense, think of it this way: if you rely on the feeble minded to secure your power, you can't be too suprised if they fuck things up for you.

Carry on...
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Surrounded by liberals with blue hair and five pounds of metal stuck through their faces in Austin, Texas, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 18:01:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)


Gents,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MARINES! LONG LIVE THE CORPS AND SUCCESS TO THE MARINES!

Now that I have that off my chest, I want to thank all our brothers (and sisters) who have served. You can be justifiably proud of your contributions.

The Election: I am sickened by the current election. Got a post that said the Pres can declare the Florida vote "tainted" and disalow it and the electoral votes. Meanwhile Al Gore has not been visibly involved, but his minions are doing everything they can to insure the win. It presently looks like Gore will take Oregon. Would like to know WHY it takes so long for a state our size to count a couple million votes and why it takes so long for the precincts to "report".

Personally, I think we had better get ready for 4-8 years of a Demo President. In another 2-4 I think the house and senate will roll back to democract control. Unfortunately, we seem to have a bunch of Demo politicians/lawyers who have figured out a way to subvert our electoral system and have the lack of morals to do so...

Think I'll go place some orders for brass, primers, bullets, and powder...

Semper Fi,

Wes
(PRAYING TO GOD I'M WRONG)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 19:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.6.15.20)


Curiouser and curiouser.......

For those interested in NM politics, Gore's lead is now down to 164 votes statewide, after the "retabulation" last night and today in the Bernalillo County election results warehouse. The 1700 or so absentee ballots (which include a lot of military) have been counted but not yet announced, and are not included in the totals yet. Our measly 5 electoral votes are still up for grabs.

Interestingly, there are 252 ballots "missing", that officials are trying to locate within the warehouse. How they know that exactly 252 are missing is anybody's guess.

As Gore's lead evaporated from 3700 down to 164, the state Democratic Chairperson announced that she has been in touch with the Dem's in DC and requested observers to be sent here immediately. Earlier she appeared to have no need for them!

Note to DC lawyers parachuting into NM:
I'd suggest a night insertion, it's still dove season out here.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 19:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.105.159)


Just a thanks to all the VETS and ACTIVE DUTY folks out there for their devotion and patriotism to our country. Happy Birthday Marines and Happy Veterans Day to those that sacrificed and served.

De Oppresso Liber !!
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 20:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)


They should substitute the voting card with a bingo card, maybe then those senile old women can get it right!!
Russ Egan <DRNRA@aol.com>
Williamsburg, Va., USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 20:52:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.162)
To owners of Leupold M3LR scope:

Early this week I wrote an email to Leupold to find out how to get a 308Y dial. Their reply said that "they are developing new (i.e., better) dials that will be available after the first of the year".

"new (i.e., better)" are their words not mine so don't ask me for specifics. But it is something to keep an eye on.

If this has been covered recently, sorry for the rehash, take it as a reminder.

Doug

Doug <dmorisoli@worldnet.att.net>
PA, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 20:59:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.214.242)


Doug...
You've joind things a few months late... We knew it before anybody.
We even knew it on Snipercountry before most of the people AT LEUPOLD!

The cams for the M3-LR, and the MK4-M3 are being re-calculated, due to errors discovered my some bum on this site, after about two years of work.

Go back in the archives and read the last 6 months.

Looks loke New Mexico is going to join the "recount" fray...

I ordered a 50 cal today, an AR-50 today... more macaroni and cheese ;((

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:31:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.32)


Ray: The scout scope/rifle combination was designed as a complete system by people who knew their purpose and know what they are doing. A rifle-shot certainly CAN hit beyond 200 yards with a scout. I shot a competition against people who used them and who were trained by the guy who designed them. Let's just say that I'm glad we weren't shooting at each other. A guy I trained with used an early scout to break a double on clay pidgeons. FLYING clay pidgeons.

It would be worth your while to go to the links page of this site and find 'Frount Sight' in Pahrump. The honcho there is named Naish Piazza. He's fully competent to show you how to use the scout rifle. If you want a dedicated long-range rifle, there are better, and cheaper, options.
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:32:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.70)


Perceptions of what is written?
Remember what has been written by me before is a brief synopsis of the events I was envolved in in SL. I will attempt to quantify the last bout of questions:
*Jungle, I would refer to the area of operations that I worked in
more like swampland than jungle. Visability was around 50 - 60m and
it was fairly easy to move through. (Mango trees etc..)
*We infiltrated through the bush, not via the roads.
*Once deployed to the road side I had a view of around 250m forwards
and 400m back down the road.
*F/forces did patrol at night (and used roads, an overt presence was
critical to send the right message to the Rebels) and ambushes were
set. Locations were coordinated by the Patrol coord Officer.
*F/Forces patrolling in my area new the rough area to expect to bump
into me. (This said they did patrol past me on frequent occations
but non noticed my position)
*At this juncture I'd like to add that it rained heavy from around
2200hrs until approx 0900hrs every day I was in the bush. (another
down factor when lying by the roadside cammed up,with no waterproofs
on obviously)
*The idea of hitting them from the rear was a shooting task not a
Mortar task, remember I stated earlier we were out of Mortar range.
Risky perhaps but Hey thats my job!
*Armour was wheeled, we only had ball rounds (no API, due to quick
deployment and difficultly getting the ammo in UK had it had not
been officially cleared through Army sources, Fucking idiots reign,
it was Lapua Ball. Extremly good ammo (for factory produced)
*On ammo we use Lapua for .338 and Radway Green for L96 (which is
poor by competition standards but its what we get issued so we have
to make do, tampering with ammo is an offense in our army, so no
re-loads)Lapua is good and very consistant but RG is very
unpredictable but we hit the target with it (precision stuff is
harder with it, you know X shooting)
*We use DF's (pre-recorded tgts) with Arty/Mor when it is available
to us. Df's were forward of the closest units (5km rear of us)

Hope enlightens previous posts Slugboy!

Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:34:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)


Note:
On return from Sierra Leone some months ago I posted some photos of Snipers in and around Lungi airfield and one of me in Kosovo on roof above Madelaine Albrights podium during her visit to Pristina. These went to Sniper Country but still hav not appeared in the photo gallery?
Slugboy <Slug.boy@virgin.net>
England - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 21:40:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.253.64.4)
To Trigger 50,

Dean, I need to get hold of you for some assistance. Please email me.

Jeff
Jeff <jeff.harmon@acterna.com>
McKinney , TX, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:32:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.36)


HAPPY VETERANS DAY AND HB MARINES!

Also, just a word of thanks to the webmasters who contribute much of what little free time they have so that we can have a forum like this.

Also, in spite of all the elections issues going on, think for a minute about how many places in the world would allow the freedom of speech that we can have a site like this free censorship.

God Bless America and may we never forget.
 

Jeff
Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:42:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.46.126)


Ref. Rendezvous Pictures

When are we going to see some pictures from this year's Rendezvous?
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:45:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.69)


Kevin,

Hopefully soon, but its my understanding Marius is up to his ears in counting ballots, ooops ;-)
 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 22:58:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.212)


All right 'Lito, you've piqued my curiousity. So "WHAT IS AN AR-50?" he asked in all capps!

Well over 2 feet of snow, and it's cooling off (still snowing!) Betty Lou is feeling neglected.

Anyone think that if I claimed I filled out my ballot wrong, they'd give me a government entitlement program for free M-118LR? Where's that algor red crayon? HA!
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, November 10, 2000 at 23:33:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.245)


Happy Birthday Marines and Happy Veterans Day Eveyone....
Estep <NEstep@hotmail.com>
Michigan, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 00:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.166)
Moe: please explain how Algore got over 75% of the jewish vote?
don't the jews have a saying that translates as "never again"
surely they can see the similarities between the current trend and that of pre-war Germany.
As a native american I get very nervous when the Feds try to dissarm us. I remember stories of the "relocation camps" the US forced the Cherokee and other tribes into, after first dissarming them.
Its not just important to vote, its important to make a well informed vote

iiii's out
iiiiwanabe <mikelsam@ipa.net>
siloam springs, Ar, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 00:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.128.140.61)


I'm trying to find some information on a fella named Darrel Holland. I under he makes and installs an item called the Ultra brake. If anyone can provide me with a way of contacting him, I would appriciate it.

Thanks, Bud
Bud Montague <budmont1@optonline.net>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 01:43:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.189.149.32)


Men.........I am looking for a spotting scope with the following minium requirements;

a) Must see 5.56 bullet holes at 300 yards in paper.
b) Must see 7.62 bullet holes at 600 yards in paper.
c) No recticle on the lens (cover up bullet holes?)
 

I would prefer not to sell my kidney but would consider it. HA!
 
 
 
 

McGrath
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, Missouri (First to ever elect a dead man. Wasted our most sacred gift. Votes!!!!!!), USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 01:47:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)


All:
Okay - gang - I didn't create this - but it loooks like a good idea for a ballot...

http://www.aspiringtech.net/Pics/morons1.gif

Ken :)

Ken <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)


John McGrath - Damn dude, maybe the Hubble might pick up a .30 inch hole at 600 yards!!!

Question, "What three things will be left after all life has ended on Earth?"

Answer, "Clintons, Gore and Cockroached".

Semper Gumby Marines.

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:47:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.102.23.52)


SITREP:

If this is not something you guys wanna see, let me know. I figure current events are good for snipers to consider for future work.
 

>
>Panama arms trade a question of supply and demand
>
>
>October 18, 2000

>
>PANAMA CITY (Reuters) -- From gold-laden mule trains linking the Pacific
>and Atlantic oceans in the 1500s to the shimmering canal at the heart of
>its modern service-led economy, Panama has long benefited from legitimate
>east-west trade.
>
>But with the weapons-laden nations of Central America to the north and
>Colombia's cocaine-fueled war machine to the south, the narrow, tapering
>isthmus now is being sucked into a spiraling regional barter economy in
>drugs and guns.
>
>Rust-flecked weapons used by former combatants in Nicaragua's bloody Contra
>war that killed 30,000 in the 1980s are smuggled through Panama by land and
>sea to Colombian rebels, often in exchange for Andean cocaine en route to
>the United States, prosecutors say.
>
>The ideological stripe of the outlaw faction is no object, with left-wing
>Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) and National Liberation Army
>(ELN) rebels queuing up to buy alongside right-wing paramilitaries,
>officials say.
>
>"The trade in arms and drugs through Panama happens for one reason: the
>country's geographical position. It's a path to market for sought-after
>products," Panama's deputy drug prosecutor Patricio Candanedo told Reuters
>in an interview.
>
>"Drugs go toward North America, where they find their greatest market in
>the United States, while the large quantity of arms that remained in
>Central America head south to where the present armed conflict is."
>
>Bellicose peace dividend
>When peace accords ended a proxy war between Nicaragua's U.S.-backed
>Contras and Cuban-trained Sandinista forces in 1990, more than 80,000
>combatants were demobilized in a country ranked among the three poorest in
>the hemisphere.
>
>While former factions handed over thousands of weapons to authorities, some
>estimates say around 50,000 remained in the hands of ex-combatants as
>negotiable assets in the peace process that promised land and credit.
>Nicaraguan police recently pegged the figure at only 5,000.
>
>"It can't be denied that in the 1980s there were a lot of arms, not just in
>Nicaragua but throughout Central America, but we are hunting them down,"
>Nicaraguan armed forces chief Gen. Javier Carrion told reporters last
>month.
>
>Kept in clandestine arsenals, the weapons are widely available for sale
>both in Nicaragua and neighboring Honduras and Costa Rica. In Honduras,
>from where 15,000 Contras fought their hit-and-run cross-border war
>throughout the 1980s, police say AK-47 assault rifles are cheap and
>plentiful.
>
>"Nicaraguan Contras sold thousands of rifles and pistols in Honduras for
>between $70 and $100, and unfortunately many of them fell into criminal
>hands," police spokesman Hector Mejia told Reuters.
>
>In Costa Rica, dubbed the "Switzerland of Central America" for its
>decades-old democratic government, police say arms buried in hidden caches
>on farmland along the northern frontier with Nicaragua can be bought for
>$100, with 15,000 rounds of ammunition thrown in for purchases of more than
>100.
>
>While El Salvador's bloody 12-year conflict ended with 1992 peace accords
>that transformed the 8,000-strong Farabundo Marti National Liberation
>(FMLN) guerrillas into a left-wing opposition party, police there say
>former weapons are readily available on a local black market.
>
>"In former times there were a lot of arms around throughout Salvador and
>some people took advantage of the situation. (But) the black market mostly
>supplies criminals at the national level," National Civilian Police
>spokesman Jose Tobar said.
>
>Enough guns for an infantry
>In the year to September, Panama police seized enough Central American
>weapons en route to Colombia to arm an infantry battalion, including 362
>Soviet-made AK-47 assault rifles, dozens of U.S.-made M-16s and Israeli
>Galils, and 427 pistols of various calibers.
>
>In four operations alone last month near Panama City and the Atlantic port
>of Colon, police impounded almost 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) of explosives,
>plus machine guns, grenades, Russian antipersonnel mines and Chinese rocket
>launchers.
>
>The raids, which netted above 125,000 rounds of ammunition and led to the
>arrest of 16 suspects, including Panamanians, Colombians and one Venezuelan
>national, also found insurgency manuals and, in one case, cassette tapes
>with rousing Nicaraguan guerrilla anthems.
>
>Security forces in Panama and Colombia say much of Central America's
>leftover arsenal makes its way south to Colombian rebels by boat along the
>poorly guarded Caribbean coastline. Once there, it is sold for cash at a
>500-percent markup, or bartered for drugs.
>
>Weapons are also smuggled into Panama from Costa Rica across the border at
>Paso Canoas in trucks, from where they are hauled south to safe houses,
>police say. Some continue to Colombia by boat, while lesser quantities are
>hauled east across the Darien Gap's open jungle frontier into Colombia.
>
>While regional security forces have played down the scale of the illicit
>north-south arms trade in recent months, some countries are now calling for
>international cooperation to interrupt the flow of weapons southward.
>
>"This (arms trafficking) is a regional problem, which also involves El
>Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras and Panama," Costa Rican Security Minister
>Rogelio Ramos said recently. "It's a problem that we all have to address."

Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 02:48:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.91.32.177)


Bravo...
It's 5 feet long, weighs 45 pounds (with optics), and shoots 50 BMG... and I may give up sheep for it!!

iiiiwanabe...
And don't for get the Cheyenne's "March of Tears"!!

Bud Montague...
Darrel Holland can be reached at "Holland's Gunsmithing"...
at 541-439-5155... he has one of the best reputations in the country, and he's very easy to talk to.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 03:33:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.137)


Bill R: Oh, Yeah. Well you write THIS down. John Ashcroft of Missouri. Don't ask, I'll remind ya!

Happy Birthday, Marines (Including two members of my family.), and God Bless all Veterans. My flag is up for you, and my heart goes out to you. Without you we wouldn't enjoy the freedom we have in this country.
 

PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 03:39:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.42)


My name is Chad Hunt, I am with a military Special Reaction Team and I am a sniper with the unit. I am looking for a small Barometer to measure wind speed in the field. If you know where I can get one please let me know. Thank you.
Chad Hunt <oneshot@vision1mm.com>
chatan-cho, okinawa, japan - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 04:28:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 210.146.8.236)
Slugboy: Thanks for the clarification. My confusion is lessened.

Laying in a hide playing host to swarms of tropical insects as it rained for eleven hours a day?

Ahh, the glamor.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 04:43:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)


Chad: Sinclar sells an anenometer called the Kestrel for about $80. I own one and can recommend it for training and the range.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 04:47:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)


Marine Aviator's Pray:
Lord grant me the eys of a hawk,
The wings of an eagle,
and the balls of an U.S.ARMY helicopter pilot!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 05:24:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.111)


WES,
the voting is controlled by the STATE in which it/is/was taken.
Totally controlled by them.
The only way the vote could be thrown out, is if massive voter fraud was discovered.
It has not........
The thing that concerns me, is the fact that a lot of our service people did not get absentee ballots, and a lot that did, did so after it was too late for them to count.(i.e), wouldn't make it back in the alloted 10 day period after the gen'l election.
Coincedence anyone?, got some swamp land for sale in Nevada, yeah, right.
Also, what are the odds of military ballots making it through the US postal system?, any bet takers here?.
Heard several service personell requesting ballots, three months in advance, and never recieved them.
One gentleman requested one three times, went down to vote in person, informed election officials and they checked, and said they were mailed, and he had voted, three times!!!.....By the way, he is a Repub, the three votes cast were all for GORE.
Enough on that topic, thank you ALL service personell, active and inactive, retired, for your hard work blood sweat and tears.......
I deeply appreciate you, and what you have sacrificed for myself and our country..........God Bless you ALL...........
Two Shoes
In the State where Dubyah governs.......for just a while longer!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 05:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.24)
Happy Veteran's Day to all who have served or are serving.
 

Election Prayer: Oh Lord,Can we please have Reagan back?
Carl Hendricks <loper@micron.net>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 06:15:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.206.37.145)


(Big) Brother Two Shoes: there's extreme evidence of voter fraud, and it's not only flagrant, it's incredible. As a matter of fact, I posted such on the PatriotsUSA site this evening, in fuller than necessarily desired explicitness. Granted, it's statistical, but it stood up to my scrutiny at full force without budging. Seems that the "double punched" ballots in the rest of the counties throughout the US were approximately 1%, except for that one area, where they were in the significant double digits. Maybe we need someone specialized in the field to verify these statements. CDC, you up for the job? As for myself, I hereby volunteer my time and effort in the system. If Florida needs a ballot counter, I'm willing, ready and able. I'll have my trusty HP-48GX in my left hand, Linda Lou locked and loaded in the other.

As of now, I'm severly antagonized. I thought it was just good form for the communists to wait until AFTER they were sworn in to recommend a dismantling of our Constitution. Seems Hitlery doesn't want to wait for her turn. But in all good faith, I will not give a complete and total call to arms quite yet LOL.

And to you lawyers out there, is there anything *I* can do as a citizen in the way of a personal law suit against an elected official if he breaks his oath of office? Seriously. I'll pay the bill if I can have some of these fetid pieces of porcine excrement imprizoned on charges.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
2+ feet of snow, guess it's a good time to load more 5.56 NATO, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 06:26:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.232)


Paul; so noted uhhuh! Am reminded of another Great Missourian, Jesse who?".
All;Perhaps we will wind up with Each Candidate president in only the states he carried if we ever figure out which ones that is. After all there is no constitution as far as the Demos are concerned. When I look at that map... that might be a good way to divide her up. Aliens from California and New Jersey.. hum! Would they have to have a green card to come to Texas. Suits me! They wouldn't have a problem with immigration. "Left States of America" That has a nice ring to it!
The Left States wouldn't need elections any more, just a line on the bottom of the welfare checks. "Write in the name of your benefactor"!
IN the "Right States of America" we'd just buy em a ticket to California and Smuggle them in overnight. Taxes would be eliminated because there would be no welfare program. Government workers would be offered real jobs and refusers would go to New Jersey. We wouldn't need a Forest Service cause we'd log it till it doesn't burn down every summer. School Teachers who know the first line of the preamble to the Consitition would be retained and the others sent to NEA heaven in California. Medical insurance wouldn't be needed cause without taxes we could pay our own way. Walmarts would be made into indoor gun ranges, and National Parks and Golf courses would be administered by the remnants of the AARP who refused to go to "Left States" and were unemployed by the failure of Walmart. Abortion clinics would be converted to ammo reloading centers and staffed by volunteer Social Security recipients and ex BATF people. Those colored or uncolored who don't notice color would not be noticed for not noticing. Schools and parking lots would be guarded by the NRA and UPS would haul firearms only. Fed Ex would do the rest of the mail and the U.S. Post offices would be Gun Club meeting rooms with P.O. boxes used for Ammo Storage. Oil Companies would produce oil... Cars would have miniguns, citizens would carry their weapons outside their pants and would be very polite. Criminals would be banished to "Left States" to become politicians there.
Sales tax, fuel tax, and brass recycling would provide for the common defense and border patrol. States and counties would keep their own money and not need federal highway and educations funds. And most important of all Soccer would not be allowed and Hamburgers would have to be cooked on flat grills with real grease! Ice cream would have to be spooned and not poured and peaches would be cheap year round. Mama's would let their babies be cowboys if they wanted too.
 
 
 

Just a little vision of Redneck utopia for you all out there.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 12:29:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Sorry for the hyperactivity of the last couple of days. This lawyer-led coup has me bouncing off the walls. I'll sit down and shut up.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:03:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.107)


B.Rogers, one redneck to another, find me this utopia and I will crawl on my hands and knees to get there. Call it "Snipercountry Town, USA"!

Lets invite Bravo the brewmaster to set up his international headquarters there, would definitely make the dream complete!

Could also be the international headquarters for; Norcal, Undude Sling Co., Bolt's Fishing Tackle Service; and a zillion other "outdoor friendly" companies!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:09:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.73)


SERIOUSLY!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:12:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.73)
SERIOUSLY!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.73)
Got so excited about this idea I hit the trigger too quick!

SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are there enough people here that would be willing to develop the idea of a "shooter's paradise" somewhere in these U.S.? There has to be enough affordable swamp or desert yucky land that nobody wants that we could get for a song! WHAT YOU GUYS THINK??????????
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 15:15:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.73)


Thanks Pablito. I've been hanging here only a few weeks. All you guyz 'da best! Can't imagine where I'd be on the learning curve without this resource.
 

Fly-specks in the election: Al Gwhore best watch his back if he pursues this strategy of cherry picking which counties to micro-recount.

We MUST keep the electoral college in place. Gore did NOT win hardly ANY states. He merely carried the large cities within states to take the whole thing. If we went to popular vote, candidates would only campaign in Los Angeles, S.F, New York and Philly and tehy would take the whole enchilada. The rest of the nation be damned.

Look at the extreme voter skewing here in Philadelphia for example. Lots of talk here about Dems registering mental patients,homeless, etc. (their typical "informed voter" base). In South Philly if you're a Repub, you're dead man walking.

Bush lost ALL of Pennsylvania, in my opinion, just due to Philly. And if Penn went the other way, we aren't having this discussion, we're out celerating Bush as new president.

SAVE OUR CONSITUTION

(Soap box mode off)
Good day

Doug <dmorisoli@worldnet.at.net>
PA, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 16:27:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.101.132.168)


Bolt: I've advocated such a paradise before, although people didn't seem receptive at the time. Instead of SniperCountry Town USA, I chose to leave the town name "Havana". Or at the minimum "Jackson Hole". I'm assuming that you guys have heard about our local ordinance now that REQUIRES all people to have arms and ammo? In order to keep the lawyers happy, there's "outs" for basically anyone, under the conciencous objector clause. Being true Americans though, there aren't any government entitlement programs for those who don't have a pistol. Note to you California types: this is all that's required for you to keep your "assault rifles". A city or county ordinance passed 180 degrees to the state law.
"All laws repugnant to the Constitution, are null and void." Marbury v. Madison § 5 U.S. 137, 176:
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, looking for a top banana, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 17:35:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.157)
Any plan should count me OUT. If you hear me say otherwise you can be sure that someone has a gun to my kid's head. This thing will sort itself out through the existing institutions.

Bush has an obligation to step up to the plate. I will support his effort through work and contributions. I don't shoot, or threaten to shoot, people. I don't believe in Utopia. All Utopias carry with them The Gulag.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 20:43:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.75)


OK, here's this thing: (Hint, Hint SC patrons in Palm Beach County)

I looked at the confusing ballot and fully agree that it might confuse some voters (wink, wink). In fact, I could understand if some Bush supporters might see the big "3" next to Bush's name and assume that they needed to count down to punch the third hole. I can see this leading to a situation where some clean Gore votes, were actually INTENDED to be Bush votes, but the "3" was confusing. I would suggest that any of my fellow Bush supporters, who also happen to live in PB county, might want to think about whether they ACTUALLY voted for Bush, or if maybe Gore got their vote. Hmmmmm Maybe all of PB should be tossed out (w/ no re-vote). Gee, I wonder what THAT would mean...
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, FL, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 21:31:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.238.250)


CDC, ease up man. We're just messing around here. I was just trying to get everyone's mind, including mine, off this election mess. Noboby's talking about shooting anybody, just messing with the idea of buying a bunch of land that nobody wants and set up "the mother of all shooting places" in friendly territory.

Well, I reckon everybody including me is about fed up with politics right now. Kinda like waiting for water to boil. I sent Bush and Cheney an email today telling them to get in there fight to win, not to wussy out. Done bout all I can do. I'm through with posting or even pondering it until somebody simply says who won.

We probably need to go back to shooting subjects again. More fun talking about "spindrift" than politics!

Bolt, feeling like having another Bravo Brew, OUT!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 21:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.238)


Boltster...
On "Spin drift"... does it spin to the right ;), or the left :((

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Used up about 7 years of my life in the last few days... in the very confused, USA - Saturday, November 11, 2000 at 22:32:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.56)


CDC: I think you might have misunderstood me. All I asked was if you were up to the job of taking a look at an article explaining statistically that the votes HAD to have been tampered with, and making an educated statement of if it were garbage or not. This from a statistics guru, not me. I didn't agree with SOME of the premices in it, although they had little effect in the vote tampering scheme of things. I'm not as interested in how many votes SHOULD each person have got, but proof that there WAS tampering. You may rest assured that my statements are, at this point in time, the same as what I have previously posted. I neither care to run, hide, nor stick my head in the sand. I won't fire first. But if *THEY* decide to start a war, LET IT BEGIN HERE! You may also rest assured that if anyone is holding a gun to your kids head, I will lend any and all possible assistance.

Patron 'Lito: political spin (drift) is always to the left. It comes from the media (medium) that the stuff is flying (through). It's surprising how many carvile "long range crap throwers" there are running about. As for me, count me in the bunkered and cammoed camp LOL
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Insert treasonous politician here ->, Hangmans noose and gallows, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:17:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.180)


Bolt...I already said I'm in..I'm in! dag nab it all, where 'n heck is IT gonna Be?

SERIOUSLY!

sorry, i know we ain't 'sposed to do that. he he he he he he he
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
but seriously dude, really., USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.195)


Paul; so noted uhhuh! Am reminded of another Great Missourian, Jesse who?".
All;Perhaps we will wind up with Each Candidate president in only the states he carried if we ever figure out which ones that is. After all there is no constitution as far as the Demos are concerned. When I look at that map... that might be a good way to divide her up. Aliens from California and New Jersey.. hum! Would they have to have a green card to come to Texas. Suits me! They wouldn't have a problem with immigration. "Left States of America" That has a nice ring to it!
The Left States wouldn't need elections any more, just a line on the bottom of the welfare checks. "Write in the name of your benefactor"!
IN the "Right States of America" we'd just buy em a ticket to California and Smuggle them in overnight. Taxes would be eliminated because there would be no welfare program. Government workers would be offered real jobs and refusers would go to New Jersey. We wouldn't need a Forest Service cause we'd log it till it doesn't burn down every summer. School Teachers who know the first line of the preamble to the Consitition would be retained and the others sent to NEA heaven in California. Medical insurance wouldn't be needed cause without taxes we could pay our own way. Walmarts would be made into indoor gun ranges, and National Parks and Golf courses would be administered by the remnants of the AARP who refused to go to "Left States" and were unemployed by the failure of Walmart. Abortion clinics would be converted to ammo reloading centers and staffed by volunteer Social Security recipients and ex BATF people. Those colored or uncolored who don't notice color would not be noticed for not noticing. Schools and parking lots would be guarded by the NRA and UPS would haul firearms only. Fed Ex would do the rest of the mail and the U.S. Post offices would be Gun Club meeting rooms with P.O. boxes used for Ammo Storage. Oil Companies would produce oil... Cars would have miniguns, citizens would carry their weapons outside their pants and would be very polite. Criminals would be banished to "Left States" to become politicians there.
Sales tax, fuel tax, and brass recycling would provide for the common defense and border patrol. States and counties would keep their own money and not need federal highway and educations funds. And most important of all Soccer would not be allowed and Hamburgers would have to be cooked on flat grills with real grease! Ice cream would have to be spooned and not poured and peaches would be cheap year round. Mama's would let their babies be cowboys if they wanted too.
 
 
 

Just a little vision of Redneck utopia for you all out there.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 00:50:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Further anal ysis of the "spin drift" theory reveals further information not yet considered by many of our gurus of physics! The term is actually backwards, it should be "drifting while spinnning". As the spinning projectile exits the muzzle it is immediately subjected to forces of laterally moving thermal currents. Therefore, one must compute not only for downrange lateral force influence, you must now compute for influences at or near the muzzle. Computing for a wind effect of 37.24 mph, one must adjust for a drift of ~.00000002576389457 inches at the muzzle for a point blank shot. In addition, but not limited to, these laterally moving thermal currents rise while heating or fall while cooling thus resulting in an upward or downward drifting vector of ~.0000231457 inches per second per second at a temp inversion of ~.1659 degrees + or -.

These are only approximations, however I believe we must now re-think the theory of "drifitng while spinning" in relationship to tactical distances of <= 112 meters.

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 01:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.238)


iiiiwanabe -

75% of the Jewish vote? Is that published? I haven't seen anything regarding that but it's probably true, especially here in Palm Beach County. How? Simple, most Jews are democrats and Leiberman is the first Jew ever picked for the "heartbeat" job. If you were Jewish, who would you vote for?

The problem is that most Jews have gotten fat, dumb and happy living in the Banana Republic. As far as "never again," the only Jews you'll see espousing that doctrine live in Israel or belong to the Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, a decidely right wing, militant organization that most Jews shy away from. And before anyone gets rightously indignant, I am not prejudiced. I work and socialize with quite a few of them, so....shut....up.

A dear lady at work (whom I refer to as my Jewish mother) was talking with me the other day about the possibility of Algwhore taking the election to the courts to "get his way." I explained to her that the Constitution did not allow that. She thought that it was his "right" to do so because she didn't like Bush and the hell with the Constitution! Excuse me? So what about the right of assembly, of religion, of speech, of unwarranted search and seizure, etc, etc? Don't these mean anything to you anymore? Silence.

The Jews are, in my opinion, forgetting their own history, now that they too are on the fed's dole.
 

Andre -

How dare you come in to our great state and try to tell us how to act like morons?! Just where do you get off, dude? I've been here 18 years and I'm just now getting the fine points down, although I still have a long way to go - I screwed up my ballot - I voted for the guy I really wanted to vote for. Damn!

You need to pay your dues, man. Go spend some time in Morrison's Cafeteria and have Jello spilled all over you! Stand in the checkout line at Publix and get your ankles smashed from behind! THEN you can start showing us the errors of our ways.

Hey, wait a minute. You're not even in the right county. You're in Broward, not Palm Beach! DAMN INTERLOPER! Double Damn! HA! ;-)

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
LOOK! IT'S JESSE JACKOFF!, FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 01:52:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.31)


Gents,

Just back from a day of spectacularly unsuccessful Rooseveldt Elk Hunting. Don't know where the beasties went to, but then our Pacific Coast Rain Forest and nasty terrain don't help much. Hell, I even dropped into the "hole from hell" thinking they might be holed up there...no joy.

Terry, I agree that the states run there own voting, but believe me there are Federal laws in place that allow Billy Boy to null and void the election...why do you think he has been smiling so much lately. Maybe he KNOWS he's not out of a job!

Actually, the whole mess is just that. The problem is that we don't know what the reality is...as we get only selected bits and pieces from both sides. I'd like it settled so we can decide on what our course of action needs to be...

I'm ready to do what the rest of the crew looks like they're doing...getting ready to "bunker down".

Interesting conversation today with Steve Nelson, Secretary of the American Custom Guncrafters Guild. We were both carrying non magnums for elk. In my case a .35 Whelan Improved and Steve was using an '06. Both customs. We discussed people buying "technological solutions" to percieved hunting needs. A good example would be people jumping on the new Remington Ultra Mag Bandwagon. Do the cartridges really perform better and are they needed? Our take was that theres no real difference between a .300 Winch and the .300 RUM. At least not that an animal can tell. Ballistically, you get a 100 or so more FPS, more recoil, shortened barrel life, etc. NOT a good trade-off.

I hunt with non magnums/unbelted cartridges. Note the "move" in that direction. Belts are worthless and unneeded, but have become what defines "magnum". Case in point is the 6.5 Rem Mag. ANYBODY using it today? Ballistics are not as good as my 6.5 X .284 which is unbelted.

The cartridges we have that work have history...The .270, 30/06, .35 Whelan, 300 H&H, 375 H&H, etc. Do we need more? On the other hand it does sell rifles...

Frankly, the .308 will fill the bill for 99% of what I do and hunt, provided watashi wa does his part...

Happy USMC B-day to all you Marines.

To those that have served: Happy Veterans Day. Your sacrifices, past and present, are appreciated.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 02:24:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.114)


You guys know I can't stand communists, but Nader is a stand up guy, and would almost get my respect. Never my vote though. When he was getting grilled about costing algor the election, he put this out, and I had to applaud: "Gore had all the advantages of an incumbent administration, but he never generated enthusiasm, and many voters cast votes for him out of the least-worst attitude, not out of conviction. ... Gore cost me the election!"

Sir Wes: I agree whole heartedly about the magnums. I took a page from Theodore Roosevelt, he thought that the 30-40 Krag was a great round for all but the largest of American game, for which he preferred the 30-06. As of this point, I can't say that I've ever run across any game wearing kevvies, so I will ditto his findings. I hunted with a 30-06 for YEARS, and then, after relocating to an area where the vegitation was more dense, I went to the 30-40. Great round, get's my approval 100%! I don't need no stinkin belts! Rims maybe though ;-)

Here's something interesting, it's a map of where 50% of the popular vote lives, by county: http://www.millenicom.com/patriot/popvote.gif You can compare that to the USA TODAY county by county vote result at: http://www.millenicom.com/patriot/map.jpg INTERESTING!!!

And now for the moment of curiousity. I did some research on the 7.5mm Schmidt Rubin (7.5mm Swiss), and it it's REALLY close to a 308X284. So why are the velocities so low? In this source, from a 30.7" bbl, they got a whopping 2500 fps from a 180 grainer. That's about 300 fps less than a 30-06 from a 22" barrel. I know something HAS to be up. Was the 7.5 data very light loads or what? It's GOT to be more powerful than the 308, right?
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
peeling the banana republic, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 02:47:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.180)


Recently, my friend was told by a gunsmith that he could get his 300 Wby mag to shoot just as well as a 30/378 by chronographing, and reloading. Is that possible? And if it is, could I, in turn, by chronographing and reloading, get my Ruger M77 300 WM to shoot better than a 300 Wby mag?
Ben Seibert <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 03:11:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.150.193.22)
Real rednecks don't want all of the durn trees cut down...then everyone would see the mess around our houses. That means I'd have to paint my redneck yard ornament...a 1985 GMC Jimmy that ain't runned in 4 er 5 years. Good god..I might even have to FIX it so it runs again!

Moe, Moe, Moe, Only 18 years? You're just a babe in the big swamp. Hang around, Polytics in cracker land just get better and better all of the time. We are the next Kalifornistan dontcha know! Why do you think I moved to the panhandle. To get away from all of the liberal kooks that have migrated to central and south Florida. Every time y'all flush your privies down in Lala land, Lake Okeechobee drops a foot. Maybe we could cross Gators with them there Raptor dinosaurs....the only people that would survive would be people with Guns!!

Damn I like that idea.
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Been all over the state, Fl., USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 04:37:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.70)


Man that was a long 15 minutes...just when i found a good thing to read other than election crap it disappears. Thanks for gettin things back in line guys, and to those who replied in reference to my GPS question thank you. Does anyone have a good load for Sierra 69grainers? Will be shooting them out of a Rem.700 Police 1/9 twist
thanks again and keep up the quality conversation all.
Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
not peoples republic of philadelphia, Pa, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 05:36:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.20.71.110)
Just for grins, I took the sample ballot the state sends and I did, in fact, vote appropriately at 100 yards! Couldn't read the damn thing at 100 yards, so I marked it then shot out the holes. Considering the stupid sheeple in FLA who couldn't vote right, that makes me one of the smartest people in the world.

(disclaimer: this was not a scientific test, it did not harm sheep, and it posed no environmental threat, and coming from a near idiot should be taken as it came from the source.)
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 05:39:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.7.54)


Hank, Thanks for your comments! All this election B.S was getting me down. You and Bolt's antics brought on out lound laughter!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
needing a laugh, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 10:35:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)


been out of the loop for awhile and have spent the last week trying to catch up on the Roster for the past month. For those still interested, www.campmor.com has Gregory packs and in some decent color. The "Shasta" is in Sage(5700 cu.in.) and the "Windriver" is in Forest(6585 cu.in.) I think the 1st ruck I have from Gregory is close to 18 yrs old and while the inner coating is gone it still hauls my gear. Got it when I was stationed at Ft.Lewis. Best ruck I ever "Humped" !!

**Here is a question for the REAL gunsmiths that visit here**
.308 Win is suppose to be 2.8"something" OAL. As we all know a Rem. 700 has alot more freebore than that and if I reload my rounds to be within 0.020 of the lands then there is NO WAY I can load the suckers into the mag/clip/whatever. OK, IS there ANY way to solve this without spending major $$$ ??? I have a VSSF and a 700 Laminated that will do 1/2-3/4 MOA all the way to 600 IF I do my part. Neither rifle has 2,000 rounds through it yet and I can't see buying a new barrel yet. Is it possible to reset the barrel ?? Or something ??

It aggravates me to no end to have to load to "spec" when I know I can get more accuracy by seating longer but when I do that the rifle becomes a single shot. Sure it's easier on the checkbook but ...

Last but not least...anyone know of a supplier for Sellier & Bellot MATCH .308 ?? I would like to try some. Hope the shooters at the Rifle Match at English Range at Ft. Benning today are having "Fun" with the "Sphinx" targets !!!! heh heh heh I have blisters from cutting all that cardboard !!
Thanks
OUT HERE

Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 13:55:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.148.218)


Will,

Had same problem with my PSS when I first got it. After dorking around with it for about a year, sent it to smith, who trued receiver and bolt, set barrel back 0.9 inches, recut the chamber, and recrowned barrel. Damn thing punched .2's and .3's consistently. Barrel still fouled like a dog after a Mexican dinner though. Finally dumped it for a Hart 1:10. Original set back and cleanup cost $175.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater Hey I just found more hidden ballots!!, FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:23:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.205.193)


Bravo: The stat stuff I use is the same thing the NSA uses to catch spies. If there's something funny in the data, I can find it. So can the statisticians retained by Dubya. The quickest way to discredit their efforts would be for CNN to try to turn me into the "Montana Militia 2000". The propaganda war is being waged.

Will: We are on the same page on Gregory packs. They're good.

Wes: Can I keep my .338 for hunting elk? Other than that goofy belt, it's really just a .30-06 on steroids. With any kind of center hit, it brings 'em down right smartly. That saves arguments over whose elk it is and you don't have to pass up shots you would with a .30-06. With 250 gr partitions, you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Sounds about like your .35.
 
 
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:23:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.30)


Wes and 700 PSS Freebore:
 

What Bill0294 said. Set back, rechamber and have the throat cut to your specs. My 700 PSS is the same way, but I have decided to live with .6 MOA untill I can approach that performance under field conditions, though I have a lathe and most other tooling to do it any time I actually *have* the time to do it. In the meantime, perhaps a recrown and looking at the bedding will help you. It certainly did in my case.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 14:46:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.205.236)


I,am shooting a browning BPS pump shotgun with a 24 inch hasting barrel and a 3x9 leupold scope with a german post reticle.Does anyone have any sighting in info for the new winchester supreme partition gold sabot slugs 12 gauge 385grain sabot 1900 FPS high velocity.
clark r swain <railhog49@msn.com>
westerville, ohio, united states USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 17:26:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.57.127)
Moe, Actually we are both probably about even since I grew up down here, but left in my eighteenth year to spend my Holidays in boot camp (U Suckers Missed Christmas). After being gone for another 14 or so (not all in the Marines) I'm back. Believe me, I've been, there done that, in terms of the senior contingency. Back when I lived here before, Miami Beach was still a part of the US and was one giant "Senior Living" area. Many a time have I found myself in a line somewhere being held up while some Social Security beneficiary argued with some poor clerk about two pennies. Looks like when they made the great exodus out of Dade, before it was turned over to South America, they leapfrogged over most of Broward and hit PB. I may not live in PB, but I still say that some of you Bush voters might have voted for Gore in your "confusion" and that the only fair end might be to toss out the entire county. Maybe that gives Bush an advantage, but you know Bill Bradley, the messiah of fair elections, really is only interested in what's right, ao I'm sure he would agree. :-)
André <andrekp@yahoo.com>
Pompano Beach, Fl, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 17:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.63.234.162)
Gents.

Didn't mean to upset folks with my comments on belted mags...;-)

Will and Tom, PSS freebore excessive, but they do that so thier barrels will shoot any bullets. I suspect Remington uses the same .308 reamer specs for all thier guns. As noted, if you load to have your bullet just off the lands you're not going to be able to stuff them in the magazine.

I load all my match stuff to 2.800". As you noted having a .6 PSS is great, but until you can shoot to that standard you really don't need anything better. Note: Check the crown. Most can benefit from re-crowning.

Re-crowning: Boots Obermeyer and I have had some serious discussions on this. Most say an 11 degree or 22 degree is best. Boots did EXTENSIVE testing and uses a target style crown and breaks it with a
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett(By God), Oregon, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 18:23:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.53)


Gents, Oops. Hit the wrong key and sent the post before finished.

Re-crowning: As I said Boots Obermeyer breaks the rifling with a
60 DEGREE BEVEL. That is what turned out to work best in all his testing. We won't get into our discussion about gas dispersion around the base of the bullet! I used a 45 degree on my M40A1 clone and it works great. In this case, more seems better.

CDC...keep you .338 Magnum. It's a GREAT cartridge. You didn't see my post to Bravo762. I told him there were only two belted magnums worth a hoot...the .338 Winchester and the .375 H & H. You got a good one...

On that note I think I'll duck and seek cover. The rest of the belted magnum guys are probably locking and loading right now.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 18:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.53)


Anyone out there remember the name of the platoon commander of the original 5th Marine Scout/Sniper Platoon formed in Okinawa during February 1966. 1st Lt, short, wore glasses. Trying to fill in some of the gaps after 34 years.
Karl H. Grosshans <grshpr@inreach.com>
Lodi, CA, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 18:31:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.25.54.114)
I recently purchased a Remington 700 ADL in .308. My first choice was a 700 VS, but I couldn't find any dealers that had them in stock (I was told they have been on back order since January). Does anyone know of a way to change the barrel with one that is close to the barrel on the VS? Feel free to e-mail me direct if you have an answer. Thanks

Flyshooter
FlyShooter <Byoung0971@aol.com>
FL, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.171.113.238)


Wes: INCOMING!

O.K. What is so wrong about my 300 winmag, except it only gives about 5 loads per brass? It has great ballistics (which can be considered nothing more than a 308 magnum), and it is very accurate.

Most people only shoot 308 because they don't really need a magnum and that is perfectly understandable.

But why is the 300 winmag such a lousy round in your opinion?

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:11:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.4.162)


BRAVO- 7.5 Swiss.. an interesting cartridge, isn't it really a .308
bore diameter? I remember that in the 50's & 60's some
gunsmiths were trying to do conversions on those Swiss Schmidt-
Rubin 7.5's that were coming over from Europe at the time.
Most were converting to .308W because the length was right, the
bore size was the same, and just like the present .308W ammo
was plentiful and cheap. All of the 7.5 Swiss brass that I ever
saw back then was Berdan primed, was real expensive, and the
military stuff was very brittle. Problem was the straight-pull
Schmidt-Rubin action acted like a grenade at .308 pressures.
I lived in Utah then, and I remember that Ackley wouldnt touch
a conversion on this rifle. I don't know if modern 7.5 brass
is any better. Loading data that I've seen has the 7.5 w/150gr.
bullet & 45gr. of 4895 @2500fps, and the .308 w/150gr. bullet
& 46gr. of 4895 @2750 - so IMHO what's the point?

MOE- I know what you mean about a certain segment of the voters,
and I'm not predjudiced either! REALLY!! I think that they
only vote for what self-serving issues that their "leaders"
tell them to, and not what's best for the country. I wonder
how many people know that they are directly responsible for
the prescence of the Russian Mafia here in the US ? It seems
that after the breakup of the Soviet Union many influential
members of the Jewish community lobbied strongly with
politicians like Liberman, Feinstein, Chuckie Schumer and their
ilk to get the INS to relax immigration standards and get these
thugs to the US on the pretext of "religious persecution".
And now look what they're up to!

I'm praying for a Bush victory, then I'll have a BUSCH

ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 19:51:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.77.239)


Hank, Flyshooter, and all.

The .300 Winch wasn't mentioned because I was talking about hunting rounds. I should have been more clear. I consider the .300 an accuracy round. While it works well for elk I have other choices.
MY BIGGEST COMPLAINT with belted magnums is the variences in belt thickness from manufacturer to manufacturer. Size your brass on the shoulders datum line and you'll be OK. Other than that you get short case life.

The other problem is short barrel life. Many shoot out in 1200-1500 rounds where peak accuracy is concerned. That and being a whimp I don't like the recoil.

My 6.5 X .284 does what the .300 does with 190's and with the recoil of the .308. Case and barrel life is undertermined at this point, but we expect several thousand rounds

Flyshooter, on your .308 ADL...if you rebarrel go to the heavier/thicker barrel lug from Badger Ordinance. I also recomment a match tube and new stock. The barrel taper on the ADs is not set up for accuracy, but may do until you can upgraded. You'll want to glass bed, too.

Kind Regards,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 21:12:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.11)


In 'Gore, Hungry For Power', George Will is calling it a coup d'etat. The buttoned-down little dude has an eye like a jeweler.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64817-2000Nov11.html
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 21:21:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.58)


HS PRECISION HTR 308WIN BRAND NEW NOTHING MOUNTED. COMES WITH FREE NYLON CTD ROD AND BOREGUIDE AND NEW BURRIS(not mounted) SIGNATURE 30MM RINGS. $1850, I PAY SHIPPING. mar1489@yahoo.com
lar mani <mar1489@yahoo.com>
hagatna, guam, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 22:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.128.68.2)
Will...

On setting back the orignal 700 barrel... if you're going to spend the money for the labor, go ahead and replace the barrel with something fine... otherwise most of that labor is lost... these original Rem barrels are $18 to $35 dollar barrels. The difference in grouping will not be worth it, and there may be no difference AT ALL!!

Get something good, and knock your socks off!!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 22:40:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.56)


CDC: that's what has been posted repeatedly on the PatriotsUSA site, as well as proofs of different types from different sources. People can call it what they will, but in the end, coup de etat will NOT be a correct bit of nomenclature. Heck, it's only the US Constitution. I've also tried the Gregory packs, and came away with good impressions. As for the Clinton News Network, well, they can throw all the media bias they want out there. Those of us who peg it for what it is don't bite. Those that do aren't serious anyway.

Alan: I was just looking at the 7.5 Swiss because by all logic, it should be a winner. By my calibrated eyeball, it appears to have approximately the same or more case capacity than the 30-06, but in a more theoretically accurate and efficient package. I wouldn't use it in something that had an unsupported ramp, but I was kind of thinking on a Rem 700. Yes, it's a true .308 diameter, according to my source. I'm thinking it was downloaded to use in that rifle, but in a more modern design it ought to be a real keeper. But Redding doesn't make BR dies for it, so it's really just a mental exercise at this point.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
LET IT BEGIN HERE!, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 22:50:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.163)


Wes,

Isn't an "accurate" round placed correctly the key to a sucessfull harvest of game? I do agree on the .375 H&H, make mine a Safari Grade Belgian Browning please. :-)

I believe the .300RUM is capable of just a wee bit more than 100 fps gain over a .300 Win. Mag. I am currently working on a CONSISTANT 190 GR @ 3200 fps load, within pressure specs, and believe that in a quality aftermarket barrel with slightly tighter chamber and leade, magical things may begin to happen. Time will tell.

Throat erosion is the price you pay for the dividends of flatter trajectory and F-A-S-T-E-R & larger payload. Last year it was whining about Varget being "potentially" erosive on the leade, this year its pooh-pooh the Belted Mags.
 

Dope It, Dial IT, DUMP IT!
 
 

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:09:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.76)


Guys..........if the hand recount stands in florida then ALL votes in the USA should be recounted by hand to be a fair election. If not then did our vote really count since it appears to be a tactic to elec Gore which underminds the process? If so then we were stripped of our rights. SO can WE sue Gore for doing this to us? Hmmmmmmmmmm
 

McGrath
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, Missouri (First to ever elect a dead man. Wasted our most sacred gift. Votes!!!!!!), USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)


"Lito-san...what you are saying is that it is cheaper to buy a new barrel with a short chamber cut to mag tolerances than to have the current barrel reset ?? You surely jest !! For that matter...where did this crazy idea that HAMMER FORGED Barrels are so bad ?? fer kee-rists sake...I've shot as well with either factory barrel as I have the ruger with the Douglas XX gaged barrel with a Timmney trigger...in fact it seems that clean up with the hammer forged barrels is easier too. Maybe I got lucky, real lucky..so my barrels weren't made on a Monday or Friday...hopefully a Tues !! H&K uses hammer forged and their barrels aren't crap...so will someone tell me, "Whats wrong with the factory barrel??"

Evidently my wallet is slimmer (than others) and I have better ways to spend my limited budget than drop a barrel that already does a FINE and I mean F I N E job. I just wanted to know the feasibility & cost to have the barrel set back/whateverthehell ya call it so the freebore isn't so bloody long. So I can load 5 rounds at one time and rapid fire. Is that asking so much ??

Think I'll just advance to the rear and let the big spenders explain while I mutter and plot devious deeds.

OUT friggin HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:42:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.176)


"Lito-san...what you are saying is that it is cheaper to buy a new barrel with a short chamber cut to mag tolerances than to have the current barrel reset ?? You surely jest !! For that matter...where did this crazy idea that HAMMER FORGED Barrels are so bad ?? fer kee-rists sake...I've shot as well with either factory barrel as I have the ruger with the Douglas XX gaged barrel with a Timmney trigger...in fact it seems that clean up with the hammer forged barrels is easier too. Maybe I got lucky, real lucky..so my barrels weren't made on a Monday or Friday...hopefully a Tues !! H&K uses hammer forged and their barrels aren't crap...so will someone tell me, "Whats wrong with the factory barrel??"

Evidently my wallet is slimmer (than others) and I have better ways to spend my limited budget than drop a barrel that already does a FINE and I mean F I N E job. I just wanted to know the feasibility & cost to have the barrel set back/whateverthehell ya call it so the freebore isn't so bloody long. So I can load 5 rounds at one time and rapid fire. Is that asking so much ??

Think I'll just advance to the rear and let the big spenders explain while I mutter and plot devious deeds.

OUT friggin HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:46:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.176)


Total muck up on the double post...must be the full moon and all the democrapic idjuts I have to deal with at work.

Later,
Will
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.176)


This may be obvious to alot of you but I have not seen this information here so I wanted to share it.

I use a Mk4 M3 scope but use 175 SMK handloaded to about 2500 FPS. Since my cam is for the 168 SMK I knew it would not be the same.

What I did to resolve the problem is figured out the load I would use and chronographed it. Then put that data into a ballistic program. I used 1 minute clicks for the scope data in the program. I took this data to my scope and started counting clicks up from a 100 Yard zero.

This is what I came up with:
100 1
200 2
300 3
400 4
500 5
600 -1 clicks from 6
700 -2 clicks from 7
800 -3 clicks from 8
900 -4 clicks from 9
1000 -5 clicks from 10

This data was written on small slip of paper and taped into my scope cover so it is visible when open.

I have shot my rifle with this data to 1000 Yards on a KD range and it works well. Though the scope does not allow for precise hit it will hit a man sized target to 1000 yards.

I took me a while to figure this out so I wanted to share it to save someone else the trouble.

Using this type of logic any cam would work for any load just the difference would need to be recorded. Better yet would be to stamp a blank cam with your pet load data.

Keep Shooting, Allan
Allan <Falshooter42@yahoo.com>
Ut, USA - Sunday, November 12, 2000 at 23:55:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.130.4.100)


Will, on S$B match .308.... the best info I could garner on this from this year's SHOT show was that there is but one source for it. This turns out to be nothing but a Mom and Pop operation, at least judging by the fact that I left them 4 messages and they never called back. Very disappointing as I have found the S&B stuff to be generally very good and a very good value, so I assume their match .308 would be at least worth trying. Surprising that they would restrict their .308 match to but one outlet. The best deal in S&B ammo is their 12 ga. OO buckshot. Very inexpensive, very high quality. 12 pellets instead of 9, but not a magnum load. The only downside is the stinky horsehair wads! The worst S&B I have seen is, unfortunately, the .308 ball. Steel jacketed, Berdan primed, not particularly accurate, misfire prone. If you find some of their match .308, please let me know! Would still like to try it.

I also got a line on some Portugues .308 match at the SHOT show but again could not get a response from the 1-only in USA source.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 00:26:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.19)


Good evening gentlemen. I have an interesting AR-15 accuracy problem, and I'm trying to get several opinions on the possible source of the problem.

I have several AR's, one of which is a heavy barrel Colt CAR, with 1 in 9 twist. Unlike any of my other AR's, this CAR will not shoot heavy (68 gr Hornady/69 gr Sierra) bullets into 3" at 100 yards. The amazing thing is that it will shoot 52 grain Hornady HPBT just fine; about 3/4" at 100 yds. (Like all of my other rifles, the CAR has a good trigger, and a free floating handguard).

When I first encountered this problem, I not only tried my favoride handloads (H-335, WW-748, Varget, 2230), but I fired factory ammo too, including Federal and Black Hills Match, and Hornady.

Results were the same: Lousy accuracy with the heavier bullet. Note that the bullets are not hitting the flash hider, either.

Any comments out there? Most of the responses I've received to date revolve around replacing the barrel.

Thanks in advance for any replies.
 
 

Mike D <mdodson@navi.net>
Lake Oswego, OR, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:01:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.222.143.37)


Will...
"Lito-san...what you are saying is that it is cheaper to buy a new barrel with a short chamber cut to mag tolerances than to have the current barrel reset ?? You surely jest !!"

Well, yes and no. lookie. the money, like $150-$175, is total labor that is lost on a $18 (cromoly) to $35 (if stainless) barrel. When you set it back, you still hae a cheap POS of a barrel, but with a good (maybe) chamber. Better that even money, it won't shoot ant better... What the hell kinda dumb stuff is that?? ;((

Send your barreled action to a good outfit, like Douglas, or one of the many good guyz, and have them do it for you. They do it better, faster, and you wind up with a good shootin piece... you can even specify what throat you want... and they will match the contour.

Now, as to the money... will they do it for the same money as it would cost to have the old one set back... no... but it won't be too much more, and you will have a really good barrel, and it will clean up slickie quick! ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:32:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.74)


Guys back from the training class from hell. I was just not ment to be in an office enviornement.

Pete, the 300 Ultra Mag is about 100fps over the 300 Win. I can get 3100 out of my 300 win with 190's and 2850 with 220's with ease. I like the Dope it Dial It Dump it. Now where have I heard that?

Bored with the election crap and can not beleave it has been allowed to go on so long. Bush is President! I wont except any other! This crap that if all the guys that voted for Nader had voted for Gore, Gore would be President. Well if all the guys that voted for Gore had voted for Nader, Nader would be President. Bottom line is Bush won lets get on with it.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:34:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.191)


Cory -

You don't know what you've missed by not living anywhere else. I grew up in Taxachusetts where the Kennedys hold Court. Man, them was fun years! Florida just has a more, er, "diverse" group of morons living here. :-))
 

Andre -

You gotta admit, things have changed here a bit, huh? HA! LOL!
 

A Shooting Question!!!!

I am using Federal 168 gr GMM to break in and sight in my Rem 700 PSS. I was under the assumption that .308 and 7.62 are equivalent rounds. I know that .223 and 5.56 are not exactly equals - I use only 5.56 in my Colt. How much difference is there between the .308 and the 7.62 cartridges? Would I notice any benefits to using one over the other? And who manufactures 7.62? Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall seeing any 7.62 at the gun shop.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
JESSSSEEEE!!!!!!! JESSSSEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!, FL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.168)


Gents,

Just got done cleaning my custom .35 Whelan Improved. Put it away and arranged the safe a bit. The rifles most accessible are now my M40A1 clone, the Chandler Sniper 6.5 X .284, and my .308 Rem Varmint Special. Guess you know what I'll be playing with this winter.

Have had several posts about my comments on magnums. I'll stand by them. On the other hand you guys that are using them or testing new calibers please share. That's how we learn from each other.

My winter project is stocking my custom 1909 Argentine small ring Mauser in .284 Winchester. It's gonna be a beaut! When completed I'll try to take some .jpg's and post them to you.

Looks like it's gonna be coyote's and crows from here on out. Anything to keep primed. You guys got an good recipes for them...?

If any of you are going to be in the western central oregon area give me a call 541-453-4054 (home) or 541-715-5915 at work. Will be happy to set up a get together and spend time.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:49:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.72)


Hey guys,
It's been a while since I posted on this topic but here goes...I'm still considering going into the service. Last time I got all sorts of great e-mails and ideas from many, and they were all greatly appreciated. My question is this....just it case I do decide to go in, I've been shootin' my Bushmaster (or B.M. heh heh heh...I said B.M.) quite a bit. It's a 16"-er, would I be better off to switch to a 20" upper for more "authentic" practice or should I keep blazing away with the carbine?
Thanks a mil(dot)
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore 'hon, MD, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 02:56:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.62)
Rich: If you can hit with the 16" Bushie, you can hit with the A2. Use the $$ on ammo. Thinking of going in? You may want to wait until the coup sorts itself out. Command may get even more squirrely than it is now.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:17:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)


Hello Guys:

Wrote to Moses at the NRA today.

Wrote to my two senators expressing my outrage as to how my states electoral votes were stolen in one city and asked for a recount of that county.

Recommend to you:
www.snipercountry.com/IRSniper.html
(Infra Red Detection and the Sniper)
www.geocities.com/pentagon/Quarters/2116/camie.htm
(Camie stick alone is not enough)

The election is in the process of being stolen going before a Democratic judge in the AM for U guys not following the flow.

Gentlemen the shit has hit the fan. Are we going to have represenative/national goverment or Communist/socialist/united nations/world goverment.

I personally swore an oath to defend the United States of America against enemies foreign and DOMESTIC some thirty years ago.
I've kept up my skills. I put on my cold zero today.

The warriors of America have an obligation to stabilize this society for your children and my children

LORD LET THIS PASS ME
 

But in the words of the founders

DON'T TREAD ON ME
SGT. SCHULTZ <bravo762@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.4)


Rich, If you are going to join, talk to someone who is on active duty now. I am at Ft. Meade and a a gun club I am joined with is shooting here on the 19th. We are all active duty or retired and can help you in your decision.....Serving Old Glory With PRIDE!!
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
Severn, Md, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:59:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.184.58)
Hey Big SGT...Don't sweat it! There is no way Gore will win. This is the Democrats last gasp at futility. The overseas military ballots will sink Gore. He is just doing what he can to counter it cause he knows he is a LOSER!!!!
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
Severn, Md, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 04:05:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.184.58)
Ken or Marius: could I get an ID on this guy? SGT. SCHULTZ bravo762@yahoo.com USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 03:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.4)

I don't really appreciate his sense of humor. But this doesn't surprise me, as it was Perecles that said "if you speak logic to a fool, he looks upon you as an idiot".
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
I hate it when folks don't have the backbone to sign someone other than MY name!, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 04:23:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.195)


Hello Wes,
I'm starting the initial work on a couple of mauser projects for the winter. I've got two Yugoslav M48's on the way, and also two German K98's. The Yugo guns are going to be a 6.5-06 and a 338-06, and I'm still kinda up in the air on what I'm going to do with the K98's. I might make one into a 7x57 or I may leave it as a 8x57, I don't know. I might just see what they look like and then use one to get a good issue K98 out of it. I'm looking at using the Bell&Carlson Carbelite stocks for the Yugo guns and I'll probably get a nice grey laminate stock for one of the K98's and spend some time with a router and some Acraglass to make a nice looking gun out of it. Anybody tried these Zero laminate stocks listed in the Brownells catalog? Opinions. Maybe I'll use it to make a 280Improved target gun. Open to suggestions, no 308Win please, got enough of those. Unfortunately I may need to use it for real sooner rather than later if the crap in FL continues. Hope I'm wrong. Semper Fidelis...Kem M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 04:55:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.96)
My stepson's tastes in guns run along the lines of "really big and holds a lot of bullets". Taurus 608 and Mossberg 590 are what he has now.

Now he's looking for a rifle and wants a .50 bmg. His budget is about $4,000. Any suggestions? His main use for it would be putting holes in oil drums at long range.
pete robertson <abelaird_knight@yahoo.com>
colorado springs, Colorado, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 05:00:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.227.178.120)


Moe'; the .308 and 7.62 are the ones that are slightly different but don't sweat it. either one will work and interchange in most guns. With out any significan problems. The 5.56 and the .223 are the same as far as I know. You may be thinking of the loadings being different as you can see on other posts here. The heavier Loads of the military or now even Target people have to have a different twist rate to stabilize the bullet. But pay it no mind the difference. It's .308 Winchester or very very close just a few thousandths in some chambers. Someone will have the exact measurments but right off hand I'd just have to surf to find them.

Bravo; would that be your twin brother duffy? Perhaps he is in a parallel universe? He seems to have the same problems we do here?

On those 300's don't waste too much time trying to make the .300 Win mag a 300 weatherby .. you'll be disappointed with the accuracy anyway. The variation in cases do make a difference. That's why I always advocate fire forming them and reloading with optimum case length. The Ultra Mag should eliminate the problem. Many people think that the belted case is superior, I just don't belong in the same bar with them. I know this stuff is fun but don't get too far into the bizzare if you want a practical rifle. The Wildcat bugs will eat you up if you get too far out. Ammo and case problems will eventually make you wish you'd stayed with the standards but don't let me spoil your fun ...

Rich; the 20" may be better for accuracy and speed. I believe it's a magic number for AR's. Carbines are cute and have their place but my experience is that the 20" out perform enough that it's worth it if you want accuracy and range. Something about the harmonics at 20" I dunno for sure?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 05:44:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


Rosterhogs,

check this rifle out !

http://www.amp-ts.com/DSR%20No%201.htm

looks like I have a new toy on my wish list for christmas.

t
click here for a look at the AMP <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 09:31:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.159.89.156)


Ref. Twist Rate

I think I've counted the ballots correctly and the outcome seems to be in favor of the .308 & 175 BTHP & 1:10 twist. I'm about to have one of my rigs rebarreled so stop me if I'm wrong here.

I took Andy to see "Charlies Angels" last night. It was a good thing.
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 10:00:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.31)


Mike,
Not to be confrontational, but what type of case life are you getting and what is the approximate chamber pressure for 3100 with the 190's? I'm not yet even pushing the pressure envelope with the .300 RUM, the bus fare back to the range for each shot is getting too darn expensive. ;-)

FWIW:
Dope It - Dial It - Dump It is to the best of my memory a Un-Dude original from last years Roster Wars about something that ended up being inane, benign, oh WHATEVER.
 
 
 

Ofta nurse a deviated septum garnered finding out what a twenty year youth advantage over Geezerdom gains in the ring..........

Cha-Ouch!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 11:44:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.52)


Bill & others who emailed me -

Thanks on the .308/7.62 query. It appears to be a case of semantics, huh? If we're just talking about different loadings, I'm not concerned. I don't handload, yet! In my Colt AR15, I use the Win Q3131A or IMI M193 only. These are apparently loaded hotter than some of the local stuff and more importantly my gun likes them. My POI with either is nearly identical which saves me from having to brain fart with a re-zero if I switch. I initially tried a bunch of different brands and the POI were all over the place. Real BS!

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Recount Central, FL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 11:59:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.181)


20" vs 16" AR: For me, 20" every time. But if a guy had a 16" to use as a trainer, shoot it 'till the barrel falls off. My 2 cents.

SSG Adam G. Scott and all military: Thanks for your service to our country. Your work is respected and apreciated.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 12:48:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.86)


20" vs 16"..A2 vs M4.....I was stationed at Ft. Stewart and they were transitioning our company from the A2 to the M4. You wouldn't believe the drastic drop in range scores. People were saying that the range was screwed up. It all came out to the proper application of shooting fundamentals. Fellow soldiers who started out with the M4 had better scores when they shot the A2 than the other way around.

CDC....Thank you for the remark in serving. I have 8 in and just re-enlisted for 6 more. Running a range tommorow in Martinsburg, West VA. Damn I love shooting free ammo.....
SSG Adam G. Scott <ADAMGSCOTT@msn.com>
Severn, Md, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.184.58)


I have an apology to make. I said that "...command could get even squirreler than it is now." I was talking about civilian command, not the officer corps. I shouldn't even have said that. The American people elected the guy. He's the C in C. I'm a William Buckley Republican, not some half-ass revolutionary.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:23:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.53)


SGT. SCHULTZ...

Is that "THE" famous "Sgt. Schultz", the bumbling asshole idiot from the TV series???
Find your balls and backbone, and stand up like a man with your own e-mail address, not a whimpering, skulking, faggot, that steals someone elses... the e-mail address "" belongs to one of our regulars, and I think he's not too pleased with you right now!!

Pete Robertson...

For a 50 BMG, look at the AR-50. After a year of looking around, this puppy R-U-L-E-S... the gun, good (MK4 or B&L Tac) scope, and the little crap, will leave you with enough change from his $4k, that he can take you to "Wendy's" for a Bacon Cheeseburger.

I just ordered two of them (one for a friend)... go here.

http://www.armalite.com/

... and poke around.
 

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:27:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.76)


Pete, honestly I do not use a case loaded toward max.more than one reload. I once had a case come apart and always go for max protection when reloading. When the free supply of brass comes to a hault this may change ( I retire). The only exception is the 338 Lapua. The brass costs so much I have some Lapua brand with six or seven loads in them but I use lighter loads (if you can call any 338 Lapua load light) If I could only justify the round a s a duty one. On the Dope it Dial It Dump it. I remember just funning you. By the way discussion is not confrontational.LOL

On setting back a factory bbl. The major cost of a match bbl is the labor so if you want a match set up get a new bbl and have it installed. If you go with a recut original keep in mind the following You Can Not Polish A Turd!

Wes, I agree the 300'as are accuracy rounds. If I was hunting something too big for a 30-06 I would step up to atleast a 338 Win. Big holes make more damage.

CDC and others on the 16 versus 20 AR's. I agree the 20" will shoot better at distance than the 16", but for me I prefer the 16 for carry, entry ands as a second weapon to my sniper weapon. If I used the AR for primary in a typical North America enviornment the 20 would win hands down, but with a sniper rifle on my back I want a 16 light bbl in my hands. Kind of a very longrange pistol.

Pablito, an AR50. Dude that thing will shoot very well but you need a Dolly to carry it, 42lbs without a scope or ammo. The Barrett 99 is 23lbs and shoots under one moa. also. Once you strat messing with 50's your bank balance will go to hell.LOL

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 14:41:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)


Will,
'litos right(As usaual) You would be money ahead to just have it rebarreled with a quality barrel. Neither of us are saying, the Remington factory hammer forged barrels don't shoot, its just that they won't shoot as well as long and when they foul heavy the accuracy goes away faster also. If you ever get a quality after market barrel you will not believe the difference in the clean up and most likely the accuracy, it will be money well spent. I have had them set back and most of the time they will shoot better but in the field you can't really tell the difference but then if your anal rententive like me well.....Just my 2 cents worth.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 15:33:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
The Wall Street Journal is doing good work:

http://opinionjournal.com/

Check out Robert Bartley and John Fund. It's important.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 15:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.110)


UnDude...

Sure it's heavy... I figure with a pair of "Max-50's", and a scope, M-2 bi-pod etc, it'll run just shy of 50 pounds...
... but think about it, I can drop the membership to the gym, and just press the riffle 10 times every morning, and I'll look like "Big Arnie S" by next year's Storm match ;)
... and, I won't need my shoulder blade fused, when I have a few years on it...
... and I won't need a Grayhound ticket to get back to the range after shooting the puppy, (like SOMEONE we both know!!).

I'm looking forward to it... it'll be a long 5 months :((

I'm gonna put a Mk4-M3 for up to 1400yds, and a B&L Tac on it for REAL distance... (got the 50 moa tapered base;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 16:28:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.76)


Sir Wes

I find it interesting that Chandler is building sniper rifles in 6.5 X 284. What are thier thoughts on the cartridge?
I am curious, is your rifle built on a long action, or can a short action be configured to accept the 6.5 X 284 and still be magizine fed?
I think it a little funny that certain people on this site hack on you for experimenting with the 6.5 X 284, saying it is a nonstandard caliber. When these same people also shoot other calibers that were at one time nonstandard.

All for now.

Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.20.172.77)


Hey Bill,

Before you declare New Jersey as the "uber alles" armpit of the east, take a look at Mass and CT (lito's state). Notice all the blue???

The voting district I live in exceeded 70% in it's attendance, and voted overwhelmingly republican. We are just outstripped by the suburbs of Camden and Trenton, which are notorious as HUGE welfare cities (I read somewhere that Camden's population was 2/3 welfare recipients)....I think it's important to note that the Northern commuter counties of New Jersey, the ones full of New York City "yuppies" voted Republican.... CT cannot say that...

Perhaps the only people voting pro-democrat in New Jersey are the ones getting handouts and entitlements...

http://www.millenicom.com/patriot/map.jpg - thanks Bravo, for the link
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:37:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


Pablito - Saw the AR-50. Planning on taking out some VW bugs or something? Saw the photo of the floppy disk. What I want to know is how you got the powder burns off!! :-) (just joking) Great shooting!!

CDC - Thanks for the editorial links. They're well worth the time to read.

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
nofingernailsleft, onlyinthe, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 17:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)


Pablito, I have to disagree with you on the AR50 ruling. Been there shot that and I like either the Barrett99 or the M107/M95 far better. Then if we go to the Navy Pattern McBros Actioned rifle built by George Gardner you will really cry. The 99 costs about 2600.00 so the price is about the same. The99 I have shoots better than 3/4moa. The 99 comes with a Krieger bbl! Everything I have ever gotten from Armalite has been low bid. Even when US Optics made the scope for them, Armalite cut the specs The scope had good optics and pee pee poor internals. Not the usual high quality of US Optics and that is why the scope never said US Optics on it. Dont get me wrong the AR50 is an inexpensive good shooter but it does not need to way nearly double what the going rate is and is no where near the ruler of any 50's out there. We may need to have 50 put into the match rules. I will carry the M107 and you the AR50, for about 20 klicks and well never mind, you are a friend and that would just about kill anyone.LOL Be happey with it, but when you said it ruled several of my 50's started jumping up and down demanding I say something.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 18:41:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)
Partner Jim: no, thank YOU for being interested enough in our country to be on the Patriots site. Glad you could use the info!

Patron UnDude: I'm with you 100%. The 20" is easier to hit with, I think it's due to the longer sight radius, which is why my 16" has the standard full length sight radius. That having been said, if it's not for close in, I'm gonna ditch it and pick up a M-14. Long range pistol, you know, that really is a quite accurate descriptor!

And speaking of M-14's, talked to Geoff today. Seems that he *JUST HAPPENS* to have a pre-ban M1A Springfield Inc stripped receiver lying around. Now, in a corner, with my name on it ;-) It'll be built to extra light status, with a good barrel and a worked over US GI synthetic stock. It's about time I replaced the battle rifle slot in the safe. My guess is that it'll be well under MOA, and I know it'll be filled with all premium US GI parts. Battle rifle, here I come! HA!

Patron 'Lito: Thanks for the stand-up, probably some 16 year old kid wanting to stir stuff up or antagonize. I think he would be surprised to see how much I don't really care. Minor annoyance at best.

CDC: half assed revolutionary? I don't suppose you've caught that nationwide there's been a documented 900% increase in ammo sales over the last several days, have you? Ask Cory how many CASES he sold yesterday. Basically, there are those that understand what's going on, and those who for some reason either don't listen or refuse to. I'm not a "half assed revolutionary", as I keep it in the system. For those that don't want to participate though (or quit participating after they leave their ballot in the box) then they have no right whatsoever to gripe if the worst case scenario should come to pass.
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, ready to rot, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 18:55:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


Jim Mitchel: I see in NJ where the Workers World Party with Monica Moorehead running for president got 4307 votes. More than the Florida Margin dispute. Does this mean the presidency will again be decided by a Monica and something about Moorehead ?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 19:16:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)
If you want to see a voting map of the USA showing the COUNTIES that the two guys won... go to:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/

And it pathetic... gore got the libral coastal cities and NY, CT, and MA... Bush got the rest of the WHOLE contry!!

If we give up the Electoral college, we'll loose the constitution.

UnDude...
What's this crap about carring it for 20 klicks... whatdaya think "Spotters" are for?

Ken has the right idea... "AR-50 Towed"... I ordered mine with optional wheels!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 19:47:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.56)


Bravo: I pretty sure I have a fair idea what's going on. It looks like a cross between Livia's bribery of the Vestals and Julius' challenge to legitimacy of The Roman Republic. The bad-guys won both those. It wasn't pretty. But thank you for your input as well as your explantion of the limitations of my rights.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 21:06:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.52)


CDC: maybe I took it the of ng way, but since I'm the one talking about the more unsavory aspects, as well as their possible unsavory resolution, of this election, I took the "half assed revolutionary" personally. Maybe I shouldn't have, so if this was a slam fire, then my appologies. The wording on the "limitations of rights" was chosen as "those" for a specific purpose. Not directed at you, but at "those", however you might feel it pertains or doesn't to yourself.

Now for a true American Patriot: check out
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_keyes/20001113_xcake_the_founde.shtml
The founders' wisdom by Alan Keyes
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
peeling the banana republic, formerly called the, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 21:17:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


GUN CLEANING QUESTION:
I hate to help spread a rumor that I can't substantiate(Sp?) and
can't even remember where I heard it, but... what's to the story
that says that you can't allow Sweet's 7.62 and Shooters Choice to
co-mingle in a barrel without causing a very harmful (to the barrel)
chemical reaction? Does chemist & brew-master Bravo know the answer?

ALSO:
Colt prohibits ammonia-based copper cleaners in their CAR-A3 H-BAR
ELITE (Accurized) Rifle with the 24" stainless bbl. Does anyone know
why? H-S Precision mentions nothing about this in the sheet that
came with my Custom Classic Sharpshooter Stainless .300WM. BTW- if
JR is lurking-this thing REALLY shoots (#MO604-8)!

Watching as the Country is being stolen, and not knowing what can
be done about it. Not any trust in judges, lawyers, and the courts!

Alan
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 22:17:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.142)


Alan: I don't use either one of those solvents, so I couldn't tell you specifically. If I understand correctly, they both work off the ammonia-copper reaction, but I can guarentee neither are just ammonia. Might be the balance of solvents not liking eachother. Both will like chrome though, so that might be the reason for the Colt (dunno). If I had both (or either one for that matter) I'd run an experiment on soft steel for you. Sorry.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, looking for ANY honest man, USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 22:32:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Alan...
I have read this from many knowing people, and I would suggest that you take it as a warning. I don't use either of these because of these warnings...

I use Hoppe's #9... you can leave it in the barrel for days... smells good, works good, must be good ;))

I have a Colt flat-top HB Match w/24" stainless, and got no warning about ammonia stuff... but I got it whan they first came out, and maybe something has shown up in the years following it's release, that's a problem... anyone else have info on ammonia in Colt stainless guns??

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 23:19:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.54)


Used self-control at gunshow this weekend! Am very proud of myself:) Did not buy any weapons of mass destruction. Wasn't a whole lot there to buy. The gun show here in Winston is getting worser and worser. Would really enjoy going to a show that had some good STUFF to look at.

Did pick up a Benchmade 710 Axis folder and it has to be one of the sweetest folders that I have placed my paws on. Try one out and then consider the sticker shock. I had already sold a couple to pay for it so I just consider it a trade.

Well it is now bambi season and I just don't feel the fire this year. Felt the same last year. Gonna go for a couple of days anyway just to say I did. Hopefully this yucky feeling will disappear soon. Getting to where I just like paper targets. Hell I usually only end up helping clean everybody else's deer anyway. Also getting to be too many crazies in the woods, even around our lease. In another month can set up my range anyway, that will be good. Full 1400 yards clear and and 1400 acres to stalk on. Up and down shooting to boot. Getting the time of year when I get fresh road kill dear calls from the folks that live on the main road down the street.

I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!I WILL NOT POST ABOUT POLITICS!

Bolt, OUT and ABOUT!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, November 13, 2000 at 23:36:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.213)


After reading this web site for months (dang, if you don't have a TON of invaluable info here), I finally decided to break > and buy a new toy - the current political Bravo Sierra being the last, necessary nudge.

I decided to get a Remington 700 VS in .308, a Leupold 3.5-10 LR-M3, and Badger Ordnance rings and mount.

Off I went to the local shop owned by a friend of mine and waited and waited while he called all his distributors.

None of his distributors has the 700 VS.

What gives? Did all the hunters buy them up already this year? Or did Remington discontinue them? While waiting, I picked up a 1999 Rem catalog, paged through it, and found the 700 VS - listed in Left Hand Only. Ugg!! I aint no leftie!

Help!!
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 00:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)


'lito, Making the 50BMG plunge, eh?
Boy are you in for some fun! Shot one of the AR50's a few months ago. It is a heavy monster. The kick is very managable. After shooting 82A1's all day for the last 2 months for a foriegn order I was beat. If you really want to wring everything you can out of the AR, call Arizona Ammunition. The match stuff is pretty stout, get the "practice" loads. Just a touch more pressure than the regular M33 ball.

Per your question on the BiggerHammer board. You can realistically expect 1500-1800m hard target hits. The wind really plays hell on the 50 projectile. The BC for the mil-stuff is terrible. I went to Benning a couple months ago to repair the Sniper School guns, went to Red Cloud range and hit the 1800m M113 a consistant 9 for 10 using MK211 Raufoss.

Have fun with your 50!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 01:42:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.76.148.37)


Tony...

Yup... I got "The Fever". My last exposure to a 50 was a custom shellholder rifle, and I didn't like it a bit... kicked you into next week... three rounds, and you went home (with buzzing sounds in your head)!

I wanted a good turn bolt "Mauser" type, with a "BFMB"!! (Big Friggin' Muzzle Break!!).
I saw a AR-50 at my dealers, and he let me play (as in take it apart), and I fell in luv... placed an order for one, and called him back and ordered one for my friend (the shellholder gun guy).

I'll be loading my own... everybody will laugh at me if I shoot factory.

Does Dean's book have accurate flight curves (tested, not caculated), for military ball, AP, API, and APIT, etc...???
I'll load the A-Max's for a lot of shooting, but also want to play with military projectiles. I have Incendary for my .308, and it's a friggin' riot.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 02:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.80)


Oh great brewing & shooting gurus I need some of your knowledge. I almost have enough shekels saved up for my Texas Arms 20" .223. Do I really need Badger hardware to hang my Lupita on a short range .223? Do I go with another LR M3 or do I try an M1? It would seem to me, that for short range "surgical" work, the M1 would be the scope of choice.

Would also appreciate any comments on an Armalite AR-180.

Thanks guys

MikeL in Milwaukee,
Remington discontinued the RH .308 VS for 1999; but they are making them again. If you need help finding one, drop me a note and I'll see what I can do.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies where we vote for "live" people; not dead ones!, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 02:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.70)


Doc, may I make a humble suggestion? Give a look to the 2.5x8 VXIII if you are in the <400 yard range. I have one on a Model 7, 7mm-08 and it is just about poifect. I will pass on the Badger part, if you have the cash burning a hole in yo pocket go for it. I would stick with the standard Loopitos if you are not heading for Storm Mountain with it.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:26:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.213)
Gents, First, and last, politico post, but needs to be shared.
Been a long time since Civics 101, so this really came as a surprise to me, and po'd me at the same time.
There is a method to Gore's madness, and this is it.
"IF", Gore, can keep the state of Florida from appointing "Electors", until Dec 18th, when the electors meet.
Florida's electors WILL BE EXCLUDED.
Gore will WIN, with 260 votes.( straight from the 12th Amendment).
This is the reasoning behind the hand counts, and court orders, and suit, counter suit..............DELAY.
Not to leave you with all BAD news, the county of Broward, has decided NOT to do a hand count, seems out of nearly 4,000 ballots hand counted, only 4 more votes for Gore were found.
This is great news, and a major blow, to Mr. Blow.
Two Shoes
Stillhopinintexas!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:35:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.69)
'lito,

Yeah, Deans book has a lot of decent poop in it. But there is a some that just doesn't jive with all that I've shot with my time at Barrett. I'm no expert, but I do have over 30,000 rds downrange with the 82A1 and the M95. The farthest I've shot is 2400m. Hits that far are more luck than anything. Reading the wind with this cartridge can be a real lesson in heartbreak. The mil stuff is really agravating. You can get really good results with the M8 AP. It flies truest of any of the mil stuff out there.

If you do decide to use the AMAX bullets, watch out what you buy. The 1st generation stuff is about 1/4" longer than the new projo's being made. The old ones will fly through paper sideways starting at around 250-300m. Will get the OAL of the new ones we have at the shop and mail it to you with some reload data that I came up with for the AMAX. Them bullets are something else.

We got in some factory match rds for the 50 a week ago for me to test, they are real nice rounds. Got a consistant 1MOA with the M82A1 out to 800m. After that it ran 1 1/4min out to 1200. That was all the shooting I did on the 82A1. With the M95/ XM107, it ran 3/4min all the way to 1400m. I was duly impressed. I didn't think the ammo makers had it in them. Can't tell the producer yet, they don't have their patent yet. We got a case to test out.

'lito, shoot me your address and I'll send the book to you to check out.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:42:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.76.148.37)


Doc,

As for short barreled .223 bolt guns and scopes I'd go with a Luppie 3.5 X 10 Vari-X III. For the gun and use you described you don't need Badger parts or the MKIV series scopes.

I used that scope on my Rem Varmint Special .223 in PA. Much to the demise of many PA ground hogs. Clean kills to 400 yards were common using 55 gr Nosler soft points...

Save the money and by components and gas for your hunting trips.

Enjoy!

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 03:43:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.152)


Doc: Bolt's talkin' some stuff about the 2.5X8 loopie. Nice and compact. 8X is still a lot of X. If it is truly a short range rig, the lighted reticle 1.5X5 might be the ticket. Advice worth what you paid for it.

I've never seen the QRW rings used on an AR. Why not?
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 04:07:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.98)


Terry in TX...not to worry. Our Secretary of State is going to force the FED to observe OUR state law that says when the votes must be in to be counted. They have till friday.

Damn, the AR-50 weighs 40 lbs? whew sounds like it needs to be mounted in a FAV.
 
 
 
 

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 04:39:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.23)


Does anyone have something to say about the HS HTR?
Ervin <esromvre@aol.comBo>
BoxElder, SD, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 05:56:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.29)
Has anyone had a chance to try LANTEC wepons?
Ervin <esromvre@aol.com>
BoxElder, SD, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 06:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.29)
Has anyone had a chance to try LANTEC wepons?
Ervin <esromvre@aol.com>
BoxElder, SD, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 06:31:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.29)
Ref. Sniper Matches

I've been checking the "Calender of Events" section and there is no mention of upcoming sniper matches. What's coming up?

What's the skinny on the Florida shoot? It's getting cold and grey around here and I could use some beach time.

GOOCH....you out there? SITREP??

Off Topic: I've never hunted coyotes before. They're all over this area now. What reference material would be recommended? What's the best way for me to come up to speed on this? e-mail is ok, don't take up space here with replies.

Thanks,
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 11:46:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)


Guys...........I am looking for advice on a spotting scope. I would primarly be using it from the bench and would like to be able to see 5.56 holes at 3 hundred yards. Am I expecting to much? Your feedback is welcomed and personal e-mail is as always great. Thanks.
 
 
 

McGrath
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, MO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 12:27:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)


'Lito,

Check out Tac-Ord, they have a .50 built on a harris action & K&P BBL, it chambers the .50 short (some type of spotters round) or you can get the full .50 BMG all wraped up in a nice fuzzy 20-25 lbs.
It was developed as a sub-sonic gun, but my bro Jamee Wade at Tac-Ord will make it into a super-sonic full .50 .

check em' out

Later

Kush out
 
 

Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 12:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.183.144.82)


If it weren't for the fact that Clinton/Gore could slither through a drinking straw, this would appear to be decisive. It depends on the meaning of "shall".

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment111300n.shtml
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 13:25:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.6)


Bolt,

"Also getting to be too many crazies in the woods, even around our lease."

This past Saturday was opening day where I hunt, and I almost got shot one once, not twice, not even three times, but FOUR F-ING TIMES! I am now very well aquainted with the distinctive CRACK-BOOM of supersonic rounds passing close to your head.

Gotta go buy an entrenching tool before my next hunt...

Roger
Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Where hippies and body-piecers are considered upstanding citizens...Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 15:22:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)


Two Shoes,

What else do you expect from a party heavily financed by trial lawyers associations? They've made the justice system into an entity that rewards those who know how to manipulate the system, not an entity that actually serves justice.

Still trying to make it up to Tac-Pro for the precision rifle course. Maybe I'll see you there.

Roger
Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
The only place in the country where a nude beach and a birdwatching site are placed right next to eachother, Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 15:32:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)


'Lito--
I know you are a hard and fast Hoppe's user, but I've used a wet patch of shooter's choice for years to push the Sweet's out of the barrel with no ill effects. My factory VS still shoots 1/3 to 1/2 MOA after 600-700 rds in the last 2 years. I don't want another Hoppe's vs. Shooter's choice vs. Sweet's vs who knows else battle string. (I remember last time ).I think if you follow the instructions on whatever you use you can't go wrong. Just my $.02.
OUT
Jamison <Longshot1000@yahoo.com>
It's gettin' cold down in, TN, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 15:39:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)
Roger:
Once you've heard the crack & thump the danger is past. A sudden inexplicable change in your posture accompanied by a burning sensation and disorientation could mean something else.
I once returned from a night in the 'ville suffering from disorientation and it was accompanied the following morning with a burning sensation. But that's another story altogether. ;-)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 16:02:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Jamison...

Yeah, I remember that silly thing about cleaners... I still have a gallon jug of green patches, smellin' real good.

My choice is based on how I clean, and some long term brand loyality.
I often come in with several filthy guns, and I just sloppy wet patch them, and finish up the next day... well maybe a few days later, so something that can't be left in the barrel, don't get into my place!!

And I'm very brand loyal... if a company serves me well, I hang in there, and I love the smell of that jooce... been smellin that Hoppe's #9, and G-96 oil for more years than most of youz guys have on your drivers licenses.
I go down into the basement, and the aroma on #9, and G-96, that's soaked into the work benches for years, says "Welcome to heaven, Dude!"...
... it's better than two keys of "Mexican Black Hemp"! for a high ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 16:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.101)


Gents,

Kush mentioned a shortened .50 cal round rifle by Tac-Ord. Believe this is the old spotter round for the 106 recoiless rifle. Designation was M-8 spotter, I believe. Neat gun and concept. Spotter gun was semi-auto magazine fed and had the same trajectory as the 106MM. Pull the knob to fire the spotter. When you got a puff of smoke on the target you just pushed in and fired the 106!

I may be dating myself, but anyone here even remember the 106?

Wes
(Who actually fired one!)

P.S. It gets my vote for a "heavy snipers weapon". Of course backblast is a bit of a give away, but the guys on the recieving end usually aren't in condition to bitch at that point. Beehive gets my vote as the antipersonnel round of choice!
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:28:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.6.15.20)


Roger, hope you can make it, it's going to bw a small class, I talked with Archangel, and looks to be around 8-10 folks.

That will be good, lots of one on one training.

About the what did I expect, sorry to say nothing, that's the sad part.

Now with the news of high jacked military absentee ballots, and fourth class postage put on some,to make sure the mil- guy's/gal's votes would not make in time, has got me to the point where I will never trust a Democrat again. Period.

I never have trusted most politico's anyway.....but this has iced it but good.

Whatever happened to real Statesmen???

Two PO'd Shoes
shakingmyheadintexas
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:28:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.59)


Thanks.... to all of you guys that answered my post about gun cleaning
both on and off the Roster. I wasn't trying to start a shit-storm over
the choice of cleaners, so I'm glad that one didn't errupt!

'lito.... I agree with you 100% on the #9, I too have been using it
for more years than I can remember. My wife even likes the smell of
the stuff, and it's much cheaper than Chanel No.5 ;-)). It's just
that I get lazy sometimes, and was just investigating different
products that are said to work faster, before ruining a barrel or two.

Political thought.... Algor should probably win the election... after
all, he did graduate from the Electoral College...didn't he?

Bruce and Hugo.... I didn't mean ALL lawyers, just their guys :-)

Keep praying,
Alan

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 18:36:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.91)


Thought you guys might enjoy this:

Dear Janet Reno,

I need legal help fast!! My rights have been voilated and I do not know where to turn.

I woke up thursday morning to discover I had the correct Texas Lottery numbers, however, I mistakenly put the wrong numbers on the lottery ticket!!

The ticket was so confusing and hard to read that now Im not sure what numbers I put on it. I do know that when I heard the winning numbers Thursday morning, they were the exact same ones I had when I went into the store to fill out the ticket.

I asked the store clerk for help and explained my difficulty, but, all I was told was, "Man are you stupid? Just put some numbers in the blocks!!"

I believe my civil rights have been violated and I am (With a little help from the local chapter of a major non-profit organization) writing you a letter to have U.S. Marshals come to Austin and freeze the lottery until I can get my ticket re-issued and the winning numbers acconted for.

Can you help me with this problem??

Again, I did have the correct numbers, however, I couldn't read the ticket, figure out the numbers or how the numbers were arranged. This is a gross injustice and I am the WINNER!!

Sincerly yours,

A Real Dumb-Ass Floridian
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 19:55:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)


Alan,

Actually Algor INVENTED the electoral college, or so I've heard. HA!

Wes, I think I saw one in a museum once. But seriously, It looked like a cool round, not as punishing as the full .50 BMG
Which brings me to your anti-personell choice, 40MM beehive is a fun round, takes a door effectively off the hinges in a CQB enviroment.

Later

Kush out
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 19:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.183.144.239)


TS,

Friend of mine (a retired Navy Master Chief) put it very well this morning when he said that the Dems have always suffered from a lack of gentlemen in their party. Repubs will take into account the greater good of the country and do like Nixon did and back off even when they're clearly right in order to avoid a dispute that will damage the country. A Dem doesn't care about anything but his own self interest. Liberals are so perpetually indignant. They're constantly going off at the mouth and people take the attitude of "let the baby have his bottle" and give them what they want just to shut them up and make them go away. The only problem is, they never shut up and they always come back.

I just got the package from Tac-Pro yesterday. I read through it at my desk just a while ago and saw that I'll need to bring along at least 200 rnds of ammo. Don't know why, but I hadn't considered that when planning the excursion. D'oh! Guess I'll need to order that case of GMM 168 I've be procrastinating over...

Roger
Roger C <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Quoth Clinton, "You want a cigar?" Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:13:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)


Report on missing military ballots:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_dougherty/20001114_xnjdo_military_a.shtml

So, are the bulk of overseas ballots coming from expatriates living in Israel? And who is watching the post office? Is it possible to "misplace" ballots that can be identified as military?
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:42:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.19)


Hogs,

I have posted those you who are regulars here a rather interesting joke.

I apologize for that actually because I personally hate getting more than the occasional joke but I thought this one was too sweet to pass up considering the current political side show we are being forced to endure.

I fly on the morrow and will be back in a couple weeks. Business south (way) of here beckons.

Play Hard!

Mars
Mars <edfernley@hotmail.com>
Headed for a third world nation tomorrow to purchase land. For real and with the intention of making a move., Will brief you upon return if interested., USA - Tuesday, November 14, 2000 at 20:47:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.111.166)


Test.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 01:30:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.74)
Gents,

A lot of political posts...just wish they'd get it over with so we can take action one way or another...

Kush, Been awhile since I've seen 40MM Behive. Last time I used a 40MM was to blow an armory in place during Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
It was our armory and it's a six beer story!

'lito, anyone who underestimates the power of Hoppes #9 doesn't know much. My wife (then lady friend), put a dab behind each ear. We've been married 10 years now. Shit, you think it should come with a warning label?

All for now.

S/F

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 03:33:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.115)


Wes: I never shot the 102. Will the 90 do? Obsolete? Hell. Could be a world of good in MOUT.
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 05:31:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.48)


Men,

First, read Scott Powers' article on detachable magazine systems. Then, tell me what you think of the H.S. Precision detachable magazine system. I am planning on installing one on my Rem 700P. I have seen the system in an H.S. HTR rifle just last week, it looked and felt excellent. I was very impressed by the quality, and liked the way it aligned the top cartridge with the boreline (centered in front of the bolt face). Also, Armament Technology apparently uses this system in their rifles.

JR from H.S., feel free to send me any info on this system.
 

Thanks!
onezero <onezero@specialoperations.com>
Don't Tread On Me, in the, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 07:01:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.105.22.108)


Wes (aka "Nom de Plume)...

You're absoluty right... every time my lady wanted "you know what", she'd dab some Hoppe's #9 "you know where"! And those of you that don't know what "you know what" and "you know where" are, you're too young to be reading this site! ;))

It's Wednesday again... gotta go make money for "you know what" (the 50 BMG)... a good set of match grade dies (C-H)... $500 OUCH!!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Sellin' ma' soul for BIG BOOLETS... in the politically confused, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 11:46:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.61)


Anyone else notice that Jesse Jackson's kid was elected twice in Cook County using these same 'butterfly' ballots? I didn't notice him complaining then!
Seth <qtc333@hotmail.com>
USA (is it still?) - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 12:11:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.206.122.17)
A view of how Gore thinks and how he would rule:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment111300g.shtml
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 12:18:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.53)


'lito,

C-H dies are good, we use the Hornady New Dimension 50BMG dies at work for tinkering around. They are almost as good as the C-H. Key word -ALMOST. But still good dies, $250 for a set of them.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 12:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.118.136)


Anyone here tried out the Tango series from Tac Op? What do you think? Email me if you want, no reason to waste space here. Thanks.
Seth <qtc333@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 13:32:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.206.122.17)
Couple of years ago, right after the Somalia debacle, they were talking about reintroducing the 106 into the inventory. Ammo wasn't a problem as we have several hundred thousand rounds over in Korea. The 106 with HEP would have been an excellent doorknocker for MOUT, and it's lots cheaper than a TOWII. The Canadians were talking about reintroducing the 106 with a new HEAT round from Switzerland IIRC, Kevin?. However after some agitation to the good by us low level grunt types, the whole thing went away because of CRS and the fact that nobody would be making money off reintroducing an old system. Still would be an excellent item to have at the Bn level, in the weapons company. Perhaps 6 per Bn, would be some useful direct firepower to augment the 81's and TOW's. Max range was 7700m and that beats the 81's by 1200m. Of course it would really be great to put them back on the M151's and have rapid react portable artillery. This is definately one of those cases where newer doesn't mean better. Be a damn fine way to bust urban sniper hides. Nothing says goodnight like a 35lb High explosive, plastic round. Semper Fi...
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 15:18:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.96)
onezero My partner at Storm used a HS rifle with their DM. It seems to be very reliable but sometimes it's hard to get the mag into the weapon. Most importantly, from my point of view, is the fact that you can't "top off" with thw mag in place.. My main gun now is a LTR w/DM..It has it's quirks but I've learned to live with it.I have taped my mag in place and remove it only for cleaning. Would I buy another one? NO WAY! Floor plate s are the way to go if you ask me.. Markwell out
MARKWELL <markwell@hardynet.com>
seneca, WonezerV, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 15:18:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.182)
Ref. 106mm
One of my favorite weapons. (dating myself) Firing one was like getting clobbered with a bean-bag chair. The overpressure and noise was huge.
With a laser rangefinder the weapon can still be an effective MAW.
Ammunition was/is cheap enough to train with and it could be freely employed without the command getting sticker shock.
As already mentioned the new emphasis on MOUT calls for a direct fire support weapon with punch and the 106mm sure has that. The Russians have developed a FAM (Fuel Air Mixture) explosive warhead which could be adapted and would provide building busting capabilities.
The problem with mounting the 106mm on a M151 is that the suspension has to be sprung for the payload and when the gun is off the vehicle roll-over accidents are common.
The HUMMER would make a perfect platform.
Does anybody remember the "ANTOS"? That rig was really neat. It was a track-laying nonarmored vehicle which mounted six 106mm rifles in a gang. A broadside from an ANTOS with Beehive rounds makes a great countersniper system. One need only direct the gunner to fire in a Cardinal Direction. Can you say, "Colander"?
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 17:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
I only have access to a few 100 yard ranges here in Northern VA and after a visit up to PA and shooting 200 yards this past weekend, I have an ever deepening urge to shoot some real distance and practice my ranging and wind reading skills, or lack therof. Anybody know of a place in the NOVA Area? I'd even be willing to drive an hour or two into lower PA or West By Gawd Virginia. Thanks.
Ryan <godale3go@aol.com>
Ashburn, VA, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 18:07:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.81.129.194)
Gents,

Didn't think the 106MM comments would get the reaction it did. Just means most of the crew knows good shit!

Kevin and Ken. The Marines fielded ONTOS. I believe our version had four tubes on it. Army had one with six. My understanding was that if you fired them all at once you cracked the turret welds! Other problem was you had to get our to reload...

I don't know about a Recoiless Rifle in a MOUT environment. Backblast would be a substantial problem to surrounding structures and troops.Not to mention some of the huts we find probably wouldn't detonate the warhead. How 'bout a MK19 40MM...? Should do a fairly credible job.

US fielded Recoiless Rifles in 57/90/106MM. The first two were shoulder fires. I can see the 57, but a 90MM...? Hope you have JO-JO the Apeman in you Platoon...

'lito, I must be an old fart. I know what "you know what" AND "you know where" mean...;-)
The younger guys don't need to know...,but if they get around Hoppe's wimmen will find out!

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:18:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.6.15.20)


Wes: When they found that Jo-Jo was the only guy there who could figure out how to work a compass, he changed jobs.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:38:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.35)


All the regulars probably already know this,but if anyone out there is thinking about buying a Bushnell Elite scope for a non-tactical application,DON'T DO IT !

They have a lifetime warranty that covers anything except failures,

apparently.Save your money and buy the Loopy.

Just got off the phone with them,and after they lost the d### scope

for three weeks,when they found it the verdict was
Carl Hendricks <loper@micron.net>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 20:39:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.207.109.2)


Ref. 90mm

My very first job in the Infantry was as a "90-Gunner". I walked into the barracks with my AWOL bag and somebody yelled, "Hey everybody! Come meet the new 90-gunner!" I carried it for about three months until I got promoted to "60-Gunner". Never met Jo-Jo.

I got to "expend all remaining ammunition" on a 90mm range once. By the time I was finished I tried to stand up and I couldn't get my ballance. It's a gun that kills at both ends and the blast is hard on the gunner too.
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 21:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)


Must have jumped the gun!Back to Bushnell's"warranty"The verdict was that the main tube was bent,and for the low,low price of 230.00 they would send me a comparable replacement.I could buy off on that,if I hadn't checked it all out with dial indicator & v blocks before I sent it in.Buy Leupold !
Off to the dungeon to grumble....
Carl Hendricks <loper@micron.net>
USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 21:46:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.19.158.9)
Wes, you mentioned a post by Kush about a Tac-Ord short .50..... I went back but couldn't find it. Anyhoo, I recently finished a batch of 4,000 cases for a guy, making short .50's out of shiny new .338 Lapua Magnums. We used Norma cases, cut them off and ground them to length, put them on a teeny little purpose-built expanding chuck, and OD ground a shoulder on. He has an order from some outfit for three rifles with cans. I have not seen them but I'm pretty sure they're made on AI's. Says they're shooting very well out to way past where I'da thought a subsonic .50 was kissin' Mother Earth already. Bet these are quiet even without the can!
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 21:50:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.142.231)
Carl,

I have not had any problem with my Elite 4000 6X24, I have not had any problem with my Tasco SS10X42M either. I don't know what the original problem with the scope was that caused you to send it back in the first place but here are my thoughts. If you did check out the scope as you indicated I would tell them that and have them ship you a new scope as they evidently found the wrong one or they were the source of the bent tube, either way they should owe you a scope. That's my 2 cents.
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 22:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.217.215.1)


Pablito,

The 50cal AMAX's you want to get are the 2.560" ones. The 1st gen ones are .250" longer and won't stabilize no matter what you do. If you order sight unseen, make sure of the length.

The HTI book went out today to you. Brass will go Monday.
 

Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, November 15, 2000 at 23:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.113.27)


Tony...
Thanks Dude... I owe you a bunch.
Do you prefer Bravo Brew, or Beaver Lite? ;)) I'd fix you up with my sister, but she's dog ugly, and nasty to boot!

I'm gonna spend the winter makin' ammo so when the toy gets here, I'll be ready to shoot in!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.ney>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 00:19:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.17)


Gents, I'm getting sick and tired of carrying around and using my rifle case as a shooting mat. In one hand a rifle and in the other a shooting mat, gimme a break.

I need some new recommendations here, I've got a set knee/elbow pads coming "Monica specials" that will take care of those two parts of my body just fine. That done, my concern is shifting towards something for the rest of my body that will put an extra layer between me and the foxtails and stickers. Was thinking of something like a burlap or codura apron to act as collect all and atleast take out a percentage of those damn things. Codura or Burlap might not even suffice and something like a piece of tanned leather from a welders apron or something, don't want to spend too much though.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what materials they prefer or how to go about making something like this? Thinking about calling it my set of "Squirrel Chaps." Hmmm, just had a thought, perhaps I could make it out of tanned squirrel hides? Nevermind, that's too close to wearing a necklace of squirrel ears.

Feel free to email me or reply here, I'll check back later this evening and tomorrow.
 

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
I can just hear those damn squirrels laughing at me in Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 00:21:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)


6.5 X .284 NORMA...BACK IN BUSINESS!!!

Gents,

My new neck size bushings arrived from Redding today. For those interested, I should have some more data and 600 yard accuracy tests in the next couple weeks.

Anything in particular you gents want to know?

Seems like I "got smaller" than 106 MM all of a sudden. Know what I can do with the extra 99.5 MM?

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 02:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.236)


Been casually looking for a rugged, cheap shooting coat for a while and have come up dry.
Im looking for something similar to what we used in the Corps. Padding on the elbows, and thick so it will last forever. (i think mine was twice my age)
I cama across a site and wanted any feedback if anyone has tried the compititon shooting coat.
It looks nice and tough, but you never know...

I went to buy a pistola and three days later i am still amazed that even the F*ng gun shop made me feel like a damn criminal.
the conversation went something like this...
"why do you want to buy a semi auto? what do you need more than 6 shots for?"

I want to use it for plinking, target shooting and the like, dont really like revolvers. Plus i really like the fit of the HK, really comfy to shoot.

"Plinking? there is no good reason you need a full clip of 10. when you are target shooting all you need is 6 at the most. otherwise you will just be wasting bullets. do you have a criminal record?"

A criminal record? No.

"well there is no reason you need a semi auto for target shooting"

Look, do you want to make a $750 sale, or not?

"fine, i will start the background check, but there will be a 20% restocking fee if something comes up you havent told me."

You know what, nevermind. You sell all the revolvers you want and i will buy my semi auto somewhere else.
fucking jackass. Im getting all pissed off just thinking about it.
"you have a criminal record"....not yet. i will after i leap across this counter though, asshole.
The funny part is, this is the same place i bought my 700 with synthetic stock and heavy barrel.
just goes to show you, there are a-holes everywhere you go. Oh well, screw them, i will spend my money elsewhere.
I will have my new toy on the 24th after the 11 day wait. only 9 more days...
Jeffro <pumpkin0871@yahoo.com>
San Jo, ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:00:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.70.47.165)


Whoops, like an idiot, i forgot the link.
http://www.gpmaes.com/index.html
jeffro <pumpkin0871@yahoo.com>
San Jo, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:01:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.70.47.165)
I dont know wht that last link does not work for the shooting coat, but this one does... i think
http://www.gpmaes.com/
Thanks
Idiot <pumpkin0871@yahoo.com>
i dont know, im stupid, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:05:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.70.47.165)
'Lito and Sir Wes: You're good to go on the Hoppes, but here's a true story. I was rather good buddies with an armorer, met him through my girlfriend. Her room-mate was going out with him. Of course, being an armorer, he always smelled like LSA. She thought it was an odd cologne! Anyway, he got sent to play in the sandbox, and she sent him a "dear John" letter so she could go out with some non-reg huge mental midget. Moral of the story? Hoppes good. LSA bad. HA! But my wifie thinks Hoppes is bad too, it's not allowed upstairs :-(
Brewmaster Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Bunker down, the ride could get bumpy, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 03:39:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.249)
Can't tell you how many times I've thought about a woman who wore a dab of "love potion number 9", in my day dreams I always happen upon her like some kind of backwoods goddess in her cutoffs, exposing her navel, and shooting squirrels from insane distances with something rediculous like a 22Cheeta. And as I approach her from downwind I catch a hint of Hoppes No.9 on the breeze and know that it isn't coming from the rifle, rather it is her perfume of choice. At that moment I realize I'm hearing weddin bells.
 

Anyhow, I can pick up that aroma no matter how faint, I tend to put a generous amount of it through my bores after shooting and then come back to it later. It isn't an obnoxious smell at all. Some of those amonia laced solvents I have though are just down right disturbing. I'll use the amonia stuff to clear out the jacket material from my stainless JP barrel but I make damn certain that I don't intermix solvents, I jag the holy hell out of the barrel to remove any hint of the stuff from the bore before proceeding on to another cleaner. I usually do Hoppes for powder solvents till those come out clean, then I dry the bore really well and move to Barnes CR10 till they come out clean and dry the bore again, then I'll typically put a light coat of Hoppes in the bore the day after.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 04:05:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)


Hoppes perfume, Algore is makin you guys crazy..you know that?
Kiddie's don't even think of anything but *WD 40 behind your ears. Repeat don't try that other stuff at home....It's really wierd around here! I never go into a senior's bar with anything but WD40. It helps their Arthritis too. She'll love you for it.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 05:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Rosterhogs,

please make me feel better, I think I made a mistake !

For some reason I put my .50 Mc Millan M-88 into a for sale ad for some pistols I am selling. I am getting call´s every day, and my S-3 (read wife) is on me to sell the ugly thing.

It´s a "Seal" version M-88, with Parker Hale bipod, Leupold MKIV Ultra in 20 X with the glass etched Mil Dot reticle. Comes with a pelican case, and I am close to selling it for the equivalent of $ 4.850,--.

The rifle is 7 years old and has 470 rounds through it, which show´s you how often I get to shoot it.
 

Please release me from my pains !

t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
cant make up my mind, to be or not to be, with a .50 in g3land - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 08:26:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.159.89.203)


Scott wrote a lengthy article about DM´s. I agree in general with his KISS approach. Still I have a few comments.

In general after market add-on magazines are not a good idea because you have two manufacturers which have their own manufacturing tolerances etc. Still a good manufacturer should be able to produce a magazine fed rifle without any problems. In LEO environment only a few shots are shot in any operation so DM´s are not needed and they usually only increase the price tag without any relevant gains in other areas.

For military Scott told to get arty if many shots are needed. This is nice and dandy for USMC snipers and maybe others in the US forces who are allowed to call arty. In most other armies the snipers do not have arty or airforce strike options available due to their different status in the battle area. Those snipers may need a lot of personal firepower at times. Of course an assault rifle is better but usually you only carry your bolt action rifle and maybe a pistol. In those situations DM´s are very handy even though snipers should stay away from trouble.

BTW Sako 75 with DM´s CAN be topped at any time through the ejection port. I think this is a first but in this case you can have both a DM and top-up option at the same time. You can have a fixed floor plate too if you insist on having that.

I like DM´s but then again I am used to rifles where the mags work as they are supposed to work. Maybe some add-on´s for Rem700 are not so good.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 09:08:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.65.143.15)


Hey guys
sorry for the off topic post but I got sent this today (from the Queen apparently!)and thought it might raise a smile...or your blood pressure! (Bravo, maybe you should skip over this :) )

NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
To the citizens of the United States of America,
In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
govern
yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence,
effective today.
Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties over
all
states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does
not
fancy. Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85%
of
you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your
borders)
will appoint a minister for America without the need for further elections.
Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be
circulated
next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules
are
introduced with immediate effect:
1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Then
look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at
just
how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, you should raise your
vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same
twenty
seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is
an
unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed".
2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know
on your behalf.
3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents.
It
really isn't that hard.
4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as
the good guys.
5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The
Queen",
but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get
confused
and give up half way through.
6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind
of
football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game.
The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders
may
have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no longer
be
allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it
would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those
of
you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar
to
American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty
seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to
get
together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005.
7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons
if
they give you any merde. The 98.85% of you who were not aware that there is
a
world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The Russians have
never been the bad guys. "Merde" is French for "shit".
8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 8th will be a new
national holiday, but only in England. It will be called
"Indecisive Day".
9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for
your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand
what we mean.
10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

Thank you for your cooperation.
ERII

Mark D <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 09:54:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.117.231.52)


QUEENIE; be careful what you wish for. We might have a few states you can just have. How about you take the original 13 and stick em' where the fog don't go. We have a few others we like to stick you with too. How about one big nice one where there's lots of sun and beach. It has a Golden Gate I hear. We have others too... Don't mess with Texas though we'll turn your garden into a vast waste land if you go there. We got some with Lake Front property that'll go nice with your other colony to the north there. Stay away from our "Amber waves of Grain". And it you hear someone say ya'll, your in the wrong place.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 12:34:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
RECOILESS RIFLES/MOUT:

I was stationed in Panama from 87-91 and our battalion traded their Dragons/Tows for 90mm RR for a couple reasons. First, wire guided systmes don't work out too well in the jungle and because we knew there would be fighting in a MOUT environment.

The Panamanian Defense Forces (PDF) had hardened their positions in the city with steel reinforced walls, heavy sandbagging inside (not visible from the outside mind you) and fighting positions with steel/concrete overhead cover. They also had some armor similar to LAVs.

The 90mms were extremely effective in the city. They were simple, effective, versatile and another big benefit was that you could carry ammo for it alot more easily that with a dragon. M203s obviously were a tremendous asset in MOUT.

In short, I think they are a great system which should never be scrapped.
Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 13:10:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.60.171.10)


Jeff: I heard that our forces used the 90 during the Panama invasion against snipers. That was in the major media, so the use of the word 'sniper' may have been a little sloppy. The reporter marveled at our "precision bombing" when the soldier hit a wall from 100 or so yards. That's hard to call precision, but it's probably more precision than most reporters are used to.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 13:21:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.74)


Bill R,
Careful now! Some of us Virginians have not lost our fight! We even elected a Rep. Senator this time! Beside, I hate fish- don't care if it does come with chips...
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Hangin' in,, Ole Virginny, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 14:38:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)
WTF, Firstly We are a sovereign nation. The Queen maybe be our head of state, but we elect our clowns ourselves.
Bill - you think we want the lakefront?? And as far as Ca. goes they got worse gun laws than we do.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
CANADA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 15:32:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.8)
Voter fraud link:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_mcmillan/20001116_xccmc_what_if_pr.shtml
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
Not as stupid as Gorewinkle thinks in the, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 15:55:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.14)


Mark D.,

I suggest if you wish to annex the US, please consult this map.
http://www.millenicom.com/patriot/map.jpg

We will allow you to take all of the people responsible for that repugnant blue color seen in certain counties.
Submit a viable plan for prying the occupants mouths off the "teat" of the land and you can have them, lock, stock and barrel.

I propose a $5 (US dollar), one time, restocking fee to support your efforts to collect your wayward children.

OH, as for football... have you ever played "sand-lot football" we don't wear no 'stinking' pads. You should come over here and try it, perhaps you'll learn something (a lesson, for sure). I personally liked you English types better when you were known for "quiet desperation". This new whiny, smarmy tone has got to go. (I'm kidding , of course)
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 16:14:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


DNC "gathering information" on Bush electors. As a public service, no doubt.

http://www.thestate.com/politics/docs/scelectors15.htm
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 18:47:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.57)


Mark of the Empire: I enjoy a good joke as much as the next guy. And actually I've been saying "al-you-minnie-yum" for a long time now. Favorite beer is 80 shilling from Edinborough. Heck, I'll even give you guys 20% credit for the Shelby Cobra. But at the LeMans this year, it wasn't the American cars that were leaving the tracks, it was the German cars that "flew" in a bad way. Good mechanicals in a not-so-good design. And I'll take my arms laws here in the socialist democracy of, as reno put it, "federalist" Amerika over yours, at least for the time being. Yeah, when you have any person in that office talking about the federalist this or that, it's time to worry.

There's a great article you to pass on to those who are prone to inaction, or those who are prone to lots of verbal action and that's it. This guy makes a great statement and has good logic to back it up.
http://www.sierratimes.com/edjj111500.htm

As for me, TWO DAYS AND COUNTING.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly the great country, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 18:51:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


CDC:

I never heard about the 90 on snipers and suspect as you mention, the press probably pegged a guy taking potshots with an assault rifle a sniper. He must not have been that great a sniper if he was spotted that easily, but you never know.

We had studied PDF Order of Battle very hard and I don't recall seeing any sniper programs worth mentioning.

One thing was for sure, and I don't mean to sound arrogant, but our sniper program was top notch in the Battalion and it paid its way a thousand times over, both during the invasion and the countless operations that went on for the year or so prior to it and afterwards.

Everyone knew it too. Want to talk about an excellent return on a small investment, the BN Scout/Snipers were it.

And within a 6 months after all the operations ended, this outstanding unit of well trained guys was disbanded.

Absolutely unbelieveable. But then again, you were obviously in at one time so you know how those things happen.

What unit were you in anyway if you don't mind my asking?
 

Jeff
Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 19:37:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.60.171.10)


MARK.... Our scientists have reassembled Guy Fawkes and brought him
back to life. We have disguised him as a Rasta-man and sent him to
London, where upon hearing the word "punter" he will carry out his
task at Parliament, but only when Bill's friend Tony is present. We
thought that he would melt right into the crowds in his "London Ghille
Suit".

On this side of the pond Soccer is played by 'girly-boys' who lack
the fortitude to play real Football, and whose mommies carry them
to their games in mini-vans. Our Football-players drive American
cars and pickup-trucks with 5-liter+ V-8 engines that get 12mpg
and use British cars as hockey-pucks.

And while I'm on the subject of automobiles, why did you compare
our's to German vehicles? Why didn't you compare them to British
autos? Could it be that there are none left? Ah... but I remember
the Sunbeam, Vauxhall Victor, Morris, to name but a few. And how
about Joseph Lucas, the Prince of Darkness.

Mark- please take this as the jest it is meant to be! I own two
German cars- a 16V GLI and a completely restored 1969 Type1, and
love them both, but my real pride-and-joy is my new Dodge Dakota
5.9 R/T pickup. BTW- I have nothing against the English (except
their food and Labour Party)- my mother was born in Stokes-Newington.

Can an air-gun reach 5000 miles?
Alan

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 20:19:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.77.140)


Bravo: I am not convinced that Gore actually garnered majorities in a number of cities on that map. He almost certainly stole many of them. So, if you want to hand Gore a huge propaganda victory plus support he wouldn't otherwise enjoy, scare the city-dwellers. The rabble will embrace Ceasar as a savior. We lose The Republic. Happens every time. "War In The Shadows: The Guerilla In History", by Robert Asprey has lots of examples.

The institutions are under stress, but they have yet to fail. They must be allowed to work. This mess looks like its headed to the Supreme Court. If it does, my guess is that the Supremes will drop-kick Gore's ass into next week. If Bush gets in he's going to be mightily pissed. His legal reform agenda will disempower the trial lawyers who tried to usurp his presidency. Many things are yet to happen before worst-case scenarios are realized.

God willing, all this will blow over. Then we will make incremental improvements in the system.

One of the generals who commented on Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" stated; "Weapons are tools of ill omen. One is concerned lest they are used without due consideration." That man thought at his pay grade.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 20:28:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.57)


Ok, this IS NOT related to the presidential election :)
I have a Simmons (yeah i know they aren't that good!) PRO 50 rifle scope, and I can't seem to find a sun shade that will thread correctly! I'm don't know if even Simmons makes one... i still havne't gotten a reply from them.
Any way, it is 50mm and I would like one about 3-5" long.

I am useing this scope on my APS-2 SV airsoft rifle. This thing is awesome!

Thanks for your time!
Shrubba <Shrubba@excite.com>
MN, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 21:50:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.84.228.148)


Ref: D&L Sports Sniper Shoot

Would anyone out there care to share an opinion on the annual shooting competition held out west by D&L Sports. What's it like? Is it good to go? Is it well organized and run? Would you go again? etc.
 

Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 22:58:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.46)


Jeffrio and Shoorting Jackets:

Try Creedmore Sports. They sell a heavy canvas jacket for about $90 that works very well. It's what I shot in competition for several years and it is definatly the most cost-effective solution. Its a good bit heaver and more rigid than the USMC, jacket, BTW.
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 23:05:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.33.22)


Jeffrio and Shoorting Jackets:

Try Creedmore Sports. They sell a heavy canvas jacket for about $90 that works very well. It's what I shot in competition for several years and it is definatly the most cost-effective solution. Its a good bit heaver and more rigid than the USMC, jacket, BTW.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, November 16, 2000 at 23:05:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.33.22)


I WILL NOT MAKE A POLITICAL POST! I WILL NOT MAKE A POLITICAL POST! I WILL NOT MAKE A POLITICAL POST!I WILL NOT MAKE A POST! I WILL NOT MAKE A POLITICAL POST! I WILL NOT MAKE A POLITICAL POST!

WHEW, got that off my chest.

Mark D., good thing I thought your post was a joke.

I need a Bravo Brew, make that a keg!
 

Bolt, out
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:00:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.116)


OK guys Old Sarge is back! PLEASE NOTICE THE NEW E-mail address and change your address books accordingly.
GOD it's good to be back!!!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:12:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.234.202.96)


Just wanted to let everyone know that I will be offering a 30% discount on any size Starlight Case until Dec. 20th. Call me at the plant, mention SniperCountry and pay only $139.99 for the absolute best case made in the world!! Don't let the cost fool you, these puppies are of the highest quality. Just want to be sure you give your investments maximum protection at a low cost.

Brack Wilson <info@starlightcases.com>
Pine Level, NC, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:16:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.148.4)


Endgame 1:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment111600e.shtml

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:16:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.61)


Jim Mitchell -

"Teat?" "TEAT?" You calling the great state of Florida a "TEAT?" Actually, if anybody's mouths are stuck to anything down here, it's Algwhore's ass. HA!
 
 

Hoppes #9 -

OK, I gotta know for sure, the weekend's coming up and I want to be prepared -

Hoppes #9 Powder Solvent or Hoppes #9 Bench Rest?

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
PALM TEAT COUNTY, FL, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:18:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.161)


welcome back Sarge!!!!!!!!
Brack Wilson <info@starlightcases.com>
Pine Level, NC, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.148.4)
Endgame 2:

http://opinionjournal.com/columnists/rbartley/

So read those carefully before getting any good ideas. The institutions will almost certainly hold. Have a little faith in the Founders.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.61)


Moe...

Straight #9, and you'll follow her anywhere!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 00:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)


CDC: I've got all the faith in the world in certain things. Unfortunately, a couple of things I live by are "never underestimate your enemy" and "never do an enemy a minor injustice". I'm sure you know the origins of both of those. I'm also sure that you know just how intelligent our opposition is. I won't gamble three spent casings (berdan primed even!) on the supreme court. Year after year they REFUSE to hear cases that would turn the country around in short order. To expect them to stand up now I think would be ill-advised. Besides, they're now into legislation through the judiciary. This situation doesn't remind me so much of Caesar as Hitler's ride through Austria. If algor userps this, they will throw roses at him too on his ride through the center of Yankee Central. Of course, this isn't anything that Calhoun didn't EXACTLY tell us was unavoidable if we followed the course we did. He was only the secretary of war, among other things, and thought QUITE at his pay grade also. You note what his answer was.

Welcome back Sarge! Hope everything is good in your new home. We gonna play "find Sarge" again? ;-)

Brack: I've got a bone to pick with you. My case is GREAT, and I love it, but I've come to the conclusion it's cursed. Every time I case up the rifle, the weather is nasty. Can you do some good mojo on it to relieve my problems? You got some mojo in desert camo? HA!

And when I got home, I had a half case of Federal Gold Medal Match brass on my doorstep! Thanks Masked Stranger! I *REALLY* appreciate it! Now to load that stuff up with some Varget. A true asset to the good guys, an another roll of tumms for the neo-commies out there!
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Gonna tumble brass, and drink a Bravo Brew, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:25:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.216)


Sun Tzu and Machiavelli in that order. Gore has to do a bunch of complicated things very quickly. If you want to help him, go do something rash.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:34:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.86)


I was looking at buying a McMillian Tactical Rifle, with an A3 stock in 308. I was wondering if it was worth the money and would like any opinions on quality. Haven't seen any mentioned in your reviews and was wondering why. Any information appreciated.
M. Sargent <y4top@mediaone.net>
Wey., MA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:43:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.147.227.169)
I was looking at buying a McMillian Tactical Rifle, with an A3 stock in 308. I was wondering if it was worth the money and would like any opinions on quality. Haven't seen any mentioned in your reviews and was wondering why. Any information appreciated.
M. Sargent <y4top@mediaone.net>
Wey., MA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:45:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.147.227.169)
CHAD, CHAD MY ASS! I can't take it anymore. No mas, no mas. Stop the insanity!

The word "chad" should be removed from the dictionary. The country of Chad should have its name changed. All people with the name Chad or Chadwick should immediately have their names changed. If it wasn't for chads, this mess would be over. A hanging chad should be called a dingleberry, a pregnant chad should be called an accident, a chad on the floor should be called BALLOT TAMPERING. Find a better way, put the ballots out about a 1000 meters and if the idiots can hit it 1 out of a hundred shots, count it. That's as fair as what is going on now. Geeezzzzzz.

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you and have a nice day.

Bolt, out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:51:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.105)


NOT ONLY THAT
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:53:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.105)
.............ALL BUTTERFLIES SHOULD IMMEDIATELY BE EXTERMINATED!!!!!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 01:54:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.105)
Boltster...
Is it Aw better now ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 02:05:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)


hello to all ,i need some help on two rifle,im looking at m91/30 sniper rifle made around 43-44 mint all the way and the orther rifle is the romanian romak3 dragunov sniper rifle booth are under 900$so guy can you help the this woman to pick
teri w <gunsofliberty@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 02:29:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.197.241.211)
DANCIN DUBYA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Click on where myname is supposed to be and see if the link works. This is a hoot. Go DUBYA!!!!!!!!!
 
 

Felling mean as a wolverine with aids, BOLT, out!
 
 

PS: if is doesn't work, heres the address (http://www.dovewinds.com/dubya/)
http://www.dovewinds.com/dubya/ <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 02:50:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.105)


I looked thru the old posts - can't find this one.

I have my Dad's old Rem 722, I believe identical to present short action 700. It extracts some of the cartridges all of the time and all of the catridges some of the time but not all of the cartridges all of the time. I've cleaned bolt and chamber with lots of eau de WD-40.

Any comments??

Thanks
Bob <http://www.catchem@inetone.net>
Beckley , West-By God-Virginia, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 03:51:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.118.53.168)


More Hoppes' comments:

Yup, agree with 'lito. The regular #9 is the way to go...personally, it wasn't the dab behind the ears that got me...it was the faint trail of scent run down between the breasts...

On the other hand the old G.I Bore Cleaner with Benzine worked pretty well on me, too...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 05:09:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.15)


Bob: WD40 and guns don't mix.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 05:13:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.42)


.50 Cal Press,

I am thinking of getting a .50 BMG press,which is the better,the RCBS model or the new Hornady model,was looking at using it for large dies,ie benchrest type .338LM dies as well as .50BMG.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 10:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.202)


Bob...

CDC was being polite... WD-40 is VERY BAD for guns... the solvent dries and leaves a brown stickie residue that will gum up your favorite stick... wash it out with mineral spirites, or laquer thinner, and then use a good gun oil!

Chris...

I just ordered a 50 BMG, so I'm getting up to speed on this stuff, but I can yell you this much (after eleventeen thousand dollars in phone bills)... the Hornady press is made by RCBS, and is almost identical, except that the Hornady has a nifty-er (read "improved") way of doing the shell holder conversion, if going back and forth between 1.5x12 and 7/8x14 is important to you.
Send an e-mail to "On Target Shooting Supplies" at:

targets@nsis.com

His prices are less than anybodies (I checked), and the stuff gets dropped shipped right from Hornady... and better yet, he's a "Rosterfairian"... 'course shipping to a "Kiwi" could get steep.

Wes...
Bad puppy ;))

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Still bummed on the Fla thing, in, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 11:22:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.62)


"Good evening, my dear. I must say, you look positively enchanting! May I show you my GI Bore Cleaner?"

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
gettin ready for the weekend with hoppes #9, FL, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 11:25:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.168)


Bob...
I forgot your first question...
>>"It extracts some of the cartridges all of the time and all of the catridges some of the time but not all of the cartridges all of the time."<<

This is a common problem, and Remingtons have were critized for this "back when"... it's because the early extractor clip-ring was poorly designed, and wore out fairly qiuickly... it needs replacing.

Your gun uses the older "rivet" type, and a 'smith should charge about $25-30 to replace it. The replacements are better designed, and won't need replacing 'till nearly forever.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 11:31:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.62)


BORE CLEANER:

Hey all this talk about romance and Hoppes! And all this time I thought is was spelled with an ER instead of an O.

Geez, number 9? Must me somekind of new strain.

As my unit 1SG always said "Men, be safe, use the appropriate MOPP level" (as they handed out the condoms for the weekend)

MOPP stands for "Mission Oriented Protective Posture" and it seemed pretty appropriate to me.

OK, I feel better now. I just had to say it.
 

Jeff <dog21@together.net>
VT, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 12:38:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.60.171.10)


There was a link posted on this board on which it was advocated that people who support our electorial process blockade the cities.

Think about that for a second. Clinton divide us against ourselves. Its how he governs.

His propaganda machine is currently selling the notion that all the Bush areas contain majority populations who want to brain innocent people with hammers and base-ball bats or drag them behind their trucks.

If you blockade the cities, you have lost most rural people (starting with me) and made the city dwellers see you as someone to be treated as an enemy. That will include some of the guys on this board. You will be hung around the Republican's neck. In one bold stroke you will have reduced supporters of the Constitutional processes of the transfer of power to a fringe cult.

"God save me from my friends, I'll take care of my enemies myself."__ Patton

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 12:56:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.17)


Bob, does the bolt come back without a cartridge or does it stick closed? Lito is right if it's coming back without a cartridge it needs what he said..
CDC; I hope your optimism is rewarded.... I dunno if there is an answer to this one.

Boltster; there ... there... Blaming Chad is like blaming a spoon for Rosie O'donnel.

God help us all.... Locked and loaded here in paradise. over and out!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 14:02:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)


I was under the impression that Unertl did not have the contract for the USMC sniper program. I thought that US Optics built the scope for the M40A1 system.
M. S. Laird <lairdms@iimef.usmc.mil>
Camp Lejeune, NC, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 14:33:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.132.102)
I was doing a search to try and find some info on the Remington 870, when I found http://www.snipercountry.com/Rem870Express.html. That linked me to The Duty Roster. I looked through Hot Tips and Cold Shots, but couldn't find a category for shotguns. Looking for a shotgun for both my wife and I for home defense. Prefer reliability,
and the shortest legal barrel for civilian use for maneuverability around corners in the home. Also, one that shoots a load that will allow me to recover quickly, if we need to make subsequent shots. Trying to decide if we should buy an 870 that is already modified (worth the extra expense?), or an off the shelf 870?? If there is reasonably priced modified 870, would appreciate distributor names and phone numbers. Also, does anyone know of any problems with accidental discharges of the 870 with the safety on?? If these subjects have already been addressed, I apologize in advance. Please give me the link for that discussion. If my question can best be answered on another discussion group, please give me that link. I'm a NEWBIE to shotguns. Would appreciate an email, in addition to posting your response. I live in Pennsylvania. Thanks.
Richard <rmitchel@epix.net>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 14:49:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.224.69.243)
Kevin,
I was going to answer you off line but thought others may want to know about the D&L shoot also.

First off its very well run and organized. Dave is a great and has some very fine range officers. He runs a strict and SAFE shoot.

Its a three day shoot that takes place about 45 miles north of Gillette Wyoming up near the Montana border. Its billed as the, "Test for both man and equiptment" and I think it is too(HA) The shoot is broken down into field courses and standards shooting. The first two days of shooting are the field courses.

You shoot two courses each day at two different locations. The elevation is around 4700ft. and the temperature is usually in the high 90s to 100s. You can use what ever you want to bring but you must be able to carry it with you to use it. The country is on the rugged side and the courses average a couple of miles in length.

The last two years you shot with a partner, one man shoots the long range targets and the other shoots the short range targets and pistol targets. The assult rifle targets are from 200 to 350yds and the long range targets are from 350 to 1200yds.

The course stress long range "FIRST" round hits. The target size is from 6" square dimonds to 14"x14" steel plates. There are also some 7"x14" plates hung both length way and side ways. As the range increases these become extremly difficult to hit in less than ideal coditions. Oh, did I mention the scoring....10 points per plate hit and a -20 points for each plate you miss!!!! You shoot twice and miss your down -40 points plus the 10 you didn't get for hitting it in the first place.

Two years ago on the first course we shot, it had rained the night before, and we couldn't tell where we were hitting and I missed targets I should have hit and we came off the course with 44 hits and 20 misses for a grand total of 40 points for the course!!! Many guys come off of the courses with a minus score!!

The third day is spent at his range and you shoot man on man competitions and off hand, kneeling and known distance shooting drills that stess speed and accuracy. Theres also a mover and then an egg shoot at 500yds.

He has had a bunch of complaints about it being to "Tough" and has considered breaking it into two divisions civilian and military to try to get more shooters. He would leave it the way it is for the military and lighten it up for the civilians. He's not sure what he will do at this point.

I have heard he is going to have a really big shoot next year and try to draw some more international shooters. The last two years it was won by a pair of professional shooters, Bennie Cooley and Michael Voigt. But the competition is always tough and hard fought down to the last day with less than a hunderd points seperating some of the top teams.

Its a tough shoot,but a lot of fun,you have know your equiptment and your gun. You shoot in all types of conditions. Up hill,down hill across canyons, up canyons, across big flats in all types of wind. You may have a "0" wind to a 20 mph wind on the same damn course!! It may be full value to half value on the same set of targets depending on the angle your shooting. It may bein your face through part of the course and behind you or tothe left or right on the next set of targets. Did I also mention that a lot of times your range finders won't work because of the range or terrain?? So you need your Mil-Dot master too, thank GOD for Bruce!!!

There is no stalking just shooting, each year the competition has gotten tougher and the ones who come, come to shoot and you meet some really nice guys both military and civilan who are always willing to help you out with what ever you need. I really enjoy it,but it is a ball buster if you aren't in shape. I hurt a knee this year and didn't get into as good of shape as I was in the past and I could really tell it. But then I'm 54 years old too and I can still do it so I'm sure you would have no trouble with it. Come on out next year and if you need any more in depth info please e.mail me!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 14:51:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)


First good news this week...

The Florida Circurt Court has said that the Tuesday, 5:00 PM vote "S-T-A-N-D-S", and no hand counted, or late (read "chad challanged") votes will be accepted... (see Gore pout :-(((

... if we get the mail in vote, we OWN it! (Unless the creek rises)

'yote Bate...

Loved "... is like blaming a spoon for Rosie O'donnel"... great line to explain a PIG!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Startin'to smile ;), in the good ol', USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 16:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.83)


FWIW,

In the Denver comPost this morning, it looks like prairie dog hunting on public land will be outlawed next year. However, poisoning is OK .........

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Tree-Huggin', Colorado, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 16:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 156.153.255.250)


One point to add to 'lito's comment. Gore is going to appeal this decision. The judge that made the ruling is fairly low on the totem pole and this will make it to the Florida Supreme Court for sure, and possibly the U.S. Supreme Court. I do think that the judge got us going in the right direction.

Be prepared to celebrate, but remember one of the most important virtues of sniping, patience.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
We got it right 6 years ago, God Bless TX, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 16:26:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)


Pat: D&L Shoot:

If he does break it into 2 'divisions' of shooters... hopefully he will allow civies to 'opt into' the more challenging shoot. I guess he could all them:

Candy Assed Class
and
Hard Assed Class

Enjoy Gents.... gotta get outa here and back to work!

Ken :)
 

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 16:27:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.39)


Pablo: And these mailbags have been watched over by the Vestal Virgins at the postal service? And Israel does not have dated postmarks.

Ken: Candy assed class? How about old and broken down class?

On the 870 question: Search 870 in December of last year. A note on safetys: Don't trust ANY of them. Use the four rules everywhere and at all times. If you don't know the four rules, take SERIOUS training.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 18:00:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.3.174)


Anybody have any experience with HS Precision's line of take-down rifles? They look interesting, but I don't know if they have what it takes for long-distance shooting.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 18:17:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.22.22.2)
Gents, ( advisedly!).
Seems like the calorically challenged lady is about to sing, or does it?.
In my understanding the Fla supreme court can issue whatever order they may, and it will only stall the process.
They have no real jurisdiction over the electoral process in the state.
There are only three ways the hand counts can count.
Natural disaster, voter fraud, Machine failure. PERIOD, end of story.
The main problem unless Gore concedes( dreaming!), is the Dem's buying, or blackmailing electors in any of the 24 states that do not require their electors to vote for the party, they reresent.
Which, by the way, we all know is NOT beneath these cretans.
So, be happy for now, but it ain't over til it's over.............
Two Shoes
stillhopin'intexas
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 18:52:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.38)
Ref. 870 Shotguns

If you chose to build or buy a social shotgun you cannot go wrong with the Remington 870.

Don't forget the choke part. e-mail me for details.

Ask yourself why though. What can any shotgun do better than a .223 carbine? Door breaching maybe. Otherwise what's a tactical shotgun for?

A shotgun kicks harder, loads slower, has less range, has less penetration, has lower magazine capacity and is heavier than a shorty AR.

My opinion is; Hunt with a shotgun fight with a rifle.

Then again, you know what they say about opinions.
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 19:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)


Rant mode activated

CDC: I don't know what to make of you. I really don't. First off, it was me that posted the link. Call it like it is, I'm proud of my actions or I wouldn't perform them. I thought about it for well longer than a second. The problem isn't with the devision, it's what the devision IS. It's the party of "support me, I tell you you have to!" or the "self sufficient" victimized crowd, that Calhoun wrote about so eloquently. So you don't want to take action. That's fine, I can understand that. About 85% of the people didn't think the US was worth fighting over in the revolutionary war either. You tell us to have faith in the system, but the system SHOULD HAVE NO FAITH IN US. You got that right. The system (as explained by Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison, as they spring to mind) was founded with the idea of PARTICIPATION. Gee. I wonder what THEY would do in our place right now. Probably nothing, right? Maybe preach to the choir some, maybe grumble and gripe, then pay their yearly tax tithe to the federalist state while hoping they aren't the next to die or be ruined? They didn't create a machine that would work perfectly regardless of the scum introduced into it. They knew that. They wrote about that. They told us what to watch out for. They DOCUMENTED it. So now that exactly the same things they warned about have come to bear, I hear you admonishing action, and telling me to trust the same government that has perpetuated attrocities on the citizenry and violating our rights and the Constitution almost literally on a daily basis. But I also hear you saying you don't trust it (the vote scams, post office, etc). So what gives? Should I sit on my couch and re-read Voltare, or just make lots of "pro-peace, please let me use my rights, but if you don't want to it's all right" stuff? I think you KNOW what Jefferson said was *REQUIRED* in this situation. Those guys thought WAY ABOVE their paygrade (Franklin was regarded as the smartest man in the known world at that time), and deserve to be listened to. Or at least, they deserve to have their teachings broadcast without hinderance. That is, only if you believe in the country as it was formed more than the communist manefesto. But I will make this offer. Since you and I apparently will not ever see eye to eye, I'm willing to go back into apolitical mode, if you do too. Unfortunately, I don't have the fortitude to withstand what I see without response. Consider it a character flaw. Oh, and as for Patton, we were his favorites. Had something to do with Hourah, Whoop! and being a school with live arty classes.

Patrick Henry [3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836]: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

Samuel Adams: "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

You will, of course, have to forgive me if I take their advice over yours.

Rant mode off
Bravo - PATRIOTS USA! <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, about to split, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 19:35:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)


hi guys... dont get off your soapboxes after the final determination for president... bacause THE REAL PANDORAS BOX IS VOTER FRAUD.

there are huge minority and ethnic immigrants of which many millions are here illegally with huge political agendas. yes we are a largely a country of immigrants, but it remains the right to vote is strictly a right of citizenship.

for example in florida all it takes to register to vote is simply "appearing to be a citizen." this is hugely open to fraud for anyone with a political agenda.

in california, which in a single state has millions of illegal immigrants adding to minority populations which are increasingly balkanizing ... they huge populations are being driven by enormous political agendas which are already siphoning off 30% of all revenues for emergency health, social safety net, and education. it is illegal for a registrar to ask for any proof of citizenship, let alone a drivers licence or even a green card (please laugh), and all that is required is a signature, followed later in a language they cant even read stating "under penalty of perjury"... wow ... big deal.

whole preceints of los angeles which contain millions of illegal minority populations submitted up to 27% by absentee ballots...this is so open to wide spread and massive fraud.. yet no one listens...

im a registered democrat, im no buchanan right winger... yet this cannot continue if we want to keep the right of citizenship to mean anything. THE RIGHT TO VOTE IS SOLELY THE RIGHT OF A CITIZEN.

if you want to just sit down and talk about dimples and pregnant chad... you lose ...everything.

christ... whatever happened to pride in proof of citizenship as a requirement to vote.
 

don <georges@silcom.com>
santa barbara, ca, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 19:49:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.71.192.251)


"Don't ever think you know what's right for the other person. He might start thinking he knows what's right for you."

-- Paul Williams
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 20:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)


Bravo: You sure told me! I didn't read all that, but I caught the tone. Crouching bootlicker. Hmmm.

God bless you Bravo, but if the good guys have friends like you.....
 
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 20:17:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.69)


and in addendum... on my posting regarding the suspected enormity of VOTER FRAUD, im a registered democrat who voted mccain as a write in...i think the democrats are hugely corrupted on this issue, the republicans probably to a much lesser degree, and the registration process is a disaster. the elite media simply looks the other way.

before the ballots and registration talleys are destroyed, it should be demanded that statistical sampling take place to determine the extent of outright voter fraud, multiple voting, proper registration meeting basic citizenship requirement, and cleaning the registration roles of such things as "dead or nonexistent people."

voting requires us to do this thing right or it loses all meaning.
don <georges@silcom.com>
santa barbara, ca, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 20:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.71.192.251)


Ken,
That was my exact question also and he said you would be able to shoot in which ever division you wanted to shoot in. I was hoping maybe for one where I could ride a four wheeler like the range officers do!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 20:20:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Election:
Fla supreme court just blocked certification scheduled for tomorrow at noon. Will hold hearings monday...

WWWWWWWWTTTTTTTTTFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Furious.

Out.

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:22:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)


D&L course:

One of our local rifle gurus, Steve Helsley, did an article in Tactical Shooter on his experience at D&L. Aside from the excellent description by Pat, I also recall that locating and identifying the targets was also part of the contest, since you weren't told exactly where they were.

The two-man teams were started at regular intervals (one hour?), with a range officer accompanying them to score them and keep them safe. I don't recall if completion time was part of the score, but if the team behind you caught up to you, you were disqualified.

Steve is ex-military, but he's in his 50's and has a bum knee. He retired this year. His partner, Mike Ball, is even older, I think. They went to D&L with the goal of beating at least one of the military teams. At the end of it, they had beaten all BUT one of the military teams. "Candy Ass" my ass, Ken!
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:23:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.22.22.2)


Ken: That may mean that the commicrats weren't able to rig the overseas ballots. This is playing out like high stakes poker.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:30:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.83)


Grasshopper,
I had the pleasure of meeting Steve and Mike at the shoot and we even shared a few beers in the evenings, they are great guys and I really admired Steve for the effort he put forth (Having to carry Mike)Ha. I would love to get and e.mail address for Steve if you have one. Thanks!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:31:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)
Grasshopper:
Sounds like they would fit well into the Hard-Ass class!

CDC:
I guess another way to look at it is - let algore get all his wrangling out now.... then if he still loses... there's no room for crying afterward... at all...

Ken :)

Ken <HunterKR@Riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:36:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)


Overseas ballots link: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/decision2000/lat_absentee001117.htm

If they're not tampered with, Bush wins them.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 21:42:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.83)


SHOTGUN COUNTRY.... I realize that this post is a little off subject
but because I'm a defensive shotgun beginner, I need some advice.
I'm looking for a 12ga. short-barreled pump to use with light buck
loads in a home defense only role. A local store has the Remmington
Home Defender for $240 and the Winchester 1300 Defender on sale at
$200. The price difference isn't as important to me as getting the
most reliable and best quality of the two. Would someone out there
that has good knowledge of this subject give me some advice?

Why do I want a scattergun when I already have a couple of AR15's
among others? BECAUSE IT'S THERE! BECAUSE I CAN!

BRAVO.... Why can't we just get along? (Sec. of State Rodney King)

Ready to go when needed.... ALAN
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, November 17, 2000 at 23:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.16)


I WILL NOT GIVE UP!I WILL NOT GIVE UP!I WILL NOT GIVE UP!I WILL NOT GIVE UP!I WILL NOT GIVE UP!I WILL NOT GIVE UP!I WILL NOT GIVE UP!

Let us see here; counting votes in mainly democratic counties, with mainly democratics looking at the ballots, the supreme court is mainly democrat and the sec of state is a republican. If it looks like shit and smells like shit, don't taste it!

Now feeling meaner that a RABID WOLVERINE WITH AIDS, BOLT over but not out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:28:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.195)


I own an H&K SL7, looking to turn it into a DM rifle. Does anyone know of a source for the H&K mounts for it ?

R Gilley <rockieg@earthlink.net>
Arlington, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:39:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.11.197.167)


Alan: if I weren't interested in "just get along", then I wouldn't have made the offer that I did. I was serious. It's not that I mind opposing opinions, I just don't like the "just trust the government, it'll be OK" business. Reminescent of the 1936 Time magazines "man of the year".

CDC: too bad you decided to skip it, there are questions I would like answered, as well as a deal to be made. I didn't call you a bootlicker either, that's your interpretation. As for the good guys, I follow in the footsteps of the founding fathers. That's good enough for me.

"They tell us, Sir, that we are weak -- unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the
next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed,
and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we
gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power." -- Patrick Henry (1736- 1799) in his famous "The War Inevitable" speech, March, 1775
Bravo - PATRIOTS USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, secure in it's peace and love of life, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:46:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.235)


I own an H&K SL7, looking to turn it into a DM rifle. Does anyone know of a source for the H&K mounts for it ? On the 106 MM:
Circa 1962, I was a small boy at a Ft. Polk Range with my Dad. He said hold your ears son. I said "that wasn't so loud daddy" He said that was the spotting round son. Whooofff Boooom Baaang and a cloud of dust as the M38A1's front wheels came of the ground and hot steel flew off of the old Tank Hulk down range. We probably gave all away to some of our "allies"

R Gilley <rockieg@earthlink.net>
Arlington, Texas, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:46:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.11.197.167)


Bipod or sand bags? Another couple of weeks and the woods will be clear of us hunters down here and it will be time to start getting serious about next years match. I don't want to start off wrong so here is the question; did most of you use bipods, tripods or sandbags last year. Currently have a bipod, building a tripod, shoot bench off of a Hoppe's rest and have sand bags.

We went over the different problems with each a couple of months ago but I can't find the stuff. I know movers and bipods don't work good unless you trap, tripods that swivel will work but thats just something else to hump. Are the bags the better option?

Humor me, trying to calm down here!

Needing a valium and a Bravo Brew, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 00:50:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.195)


Oh damn...Looks like the almost all Demoncratic Supremist Court of the Peoples Republic of Floridastan is going to violate Florida Statutes.....the time for the vote counting is past, as our Sec'tary O' State knows quite well.

The Commie Bastards sre going to any lenght to get over on us.

I'm with Ken.......WTF!!!!

Let the two candidates pick winners in tomorrows game between Florida Secondrate University Criminoles (FSU) and the Florida Gators.

ah hell, Moe, you bring up some Gators from the glades, the candidate that can wrastle one of 'em to the death gets the office.
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 01:46:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.2)


Bravo......if I understand this right come 18 December when the electorates cast thier votes either side can dispute and call for a vote in the house and determine our next President is that right? If so both sides need to let it go and fight it in Congress
 
 

Totaly Pissed the (*^^(& off with GORE and company,

John McGrath
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 01:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)


SOMETHING FOR FUN!!!!!!!!!!

I will offer a new set of 6 color desert camos size XL top and L/L pants to the Rosterferian that can guess the DAY/DATE that this mess is over, they call the game and a president is CONFIRMED.

Closest without going over wins. Email me with your guess by Monday, November 20 at 14:00 eastern. I will use the day/date that MSNBC announces it since that is all they will be doing until then. IF there is a tie guess, I'll use the time on the email so keep a copy of my reply for safe keeping.

Not feeling better but feeling benevolent, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 01:58:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.195)


Bravo: You never heard me say, "just trust the government, it'll be OK". We are able to observe our line of defense. If it crumbles something different will happen. No one knows what that will be, but I have flashes of "The Gulag Archipeligo." It will not be a "go along to get along" situation. We all know second amendment isn't about our right to own sporting goods.

I advocate watching carefully and engaging your brain.

By the way, I read Voltaire while living in a cabin in Colorado. Didn't have a couch. Hell, didn't even have electricity. Used to cut the heads off quail with a Remington 541S with a 3X9 Zeiss. Draw a bead then whistle to get 'em to stop moving their heads. Good clean fun.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 02:06:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.65)


Gent's, Hate to bring more potential bad news, but.........
Go to www.drudgereport.com, and read the article about Congress getting ready for Fla electoral vote.........close enough.
Top of page , dead center.
If your weak of stomach, don't go there......
Man, what a week, I feel like I been on multiple drugs, more highs and lows than a roller coaster.....
Bolt, move over!!!!!!, you got company.....Valium!!!!!!
Two Shoes
wornoutintexas
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 02:35:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.28)
Cory -

I invented gators - Alghwore
 
 

OK, time for some levity. I have had a bitchy week.
 

http://www.tvdance.com/bush-gore
 

CRANK UP THE VOLUME!

Moe
 

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Mmmmmmmmmmm! That Hoppes Smells Goooooood!, FL, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 03:01:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.28)


YIKESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! TAKE TWOSHOE'S WARNING!!!!!!!

That picture is totally disgusting and bordering on YUCKY! That's your senator you lucky New Yorkers. Glad she didn't pick NC!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 03:04:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.195)


Bolt:

Hmmmmm.....(putting on Great Karnac hat)

Anyone else think this is looking more and more like the OJ trial (same late-night experts, same twists and turns and deception)?

Here's a preview of the this weekend: Lieberman loads up a White Bronco with Gore in the back in an attempt to haul the absentee ballots out of state on a slow speed police chase. Hey...don't think this isn't going to happen!

This won't be over 'till its over.

Back to the question: My guess is Jan. 5 when the electoral vote is actually confirmed by the house. Even then some last minute shenannigans can occur.

I won't be totally convinced as to the winner until Jan 20 and see who takes the oath. (Thought of Gore placing hand on Bible for oath makes me want to power vomit)

Thats my guess.

Out
 

Doug <dmorisoli@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 04:26:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.214.19)


It appears that it is time to look at the company's, States, and people we do business with, it takes a great deal of money to perpetuate these assaults on the rights of a free people, it may be wise to keep the money in the family. Where will I take my winter break this year? I don't know, but I do know where I won't go. Your thoughts and recommendations, Please?
Have a nice evening, Thanks
Rabon <fairchase@iwon.com>
Alaska, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 05:29:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.237.147.83)
Big Bro: I'm gonna have to pull a Jesse Helms on that one. I know what disgusting is when I see it, and that's it. Note, I have no problem with any of our "lesser citizens" going to foreign countries, I just don't want it mandated that we have to allow them return priviledges!

John: Article II, section 1 was ammended by the 12th amendment, which was then amended by the 20th. I'll make exerpts for the sake of berevity.
"The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for a President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds the states and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice." Now for the tricky part. Amendment 12 was also superseded by Amendment 20. From that we get "And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President". The interesting thing is that if it gets this far, (far enough for the congress to declare a president) then by law, the loser becomes the vice president. I.E. you would have a GW president - algor vice president whitehouse.

CDC: maybe I misunderstood "The institutions are under stress, but they have yet to fail. They must be allowed to work", but that sounded to me like "just trust the government, it'll be OK". Our line of defense? Oh yeah, I remember that. They violated that years ago. Nobody cared then either.

Follow the steps.

Mark Twain: "A newspaper is not just for reporting the news, it's to get people mad enough to do something about it."
Gandhi: "You may think your actions are meaningless and that they won't help, but that is no excuse, you must still act."
Thomas Jefferson, 1821: "...the Federal Judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is scarcely a scare-crow), working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little to-day and a little to-morrow, and advancing it's noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one. ...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."

The offer is still valid
Bravo - PATRIOTS USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
looking for the banana republic to split, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 05:47:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.248)


Fellas:

First of all I'd like to state that I'm an Irishman, not a statesman, so bear with me!!
 

This deconstructionist ideology many politicians and disinformed (not misinformed, these people don't wanna know) citizens have adopted the past 8 years is in full view at this spectacle in the Sunshine State. It's right in front of our eyes and no one in the press seems to have the cajones to inform 'the people' of what is taking place. Where did this country's backbone go? When did the history of how and why this great nation came into existence take it in the ass?? When did this society become all about 'me', when not too long ago it was said 'not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country'??

What in the hell is the 'will of the people'?? Who's will???!!! Isn't that what the laws that these pols are stomping at the judicial level are supposed to be?? Laws voted on and passed by representatives of 'the people'. That is why we are not a true democracy. We aren't supposed to be ruled by 'the will of the people' because that just doesn't work out, mob rules is what I call it. We are a representative republic who elect officials, representatives, to represent the 'will of the people' at the township, city, county, state, and federal levels of government. They represent us, not individually, but as a whole to see that balance is held within their jurisdiction and in their respective governmental function. This isn't about the 'will of the people', it's about the 'will of Algore for President', and I will never follow his example of leadership. The Constitution doesn't mean squat to these people, I can't believe 'the people' do not understand how integral this corruption of the soul of the United States of America will affect them for the rest of their god-given lives. They are using this sacred and treasured document and life force of this country as ass wipe, and if they get away with disillusioning the American People as they have the American Press, we are in for another 1860-1865. We are screwing with states rights AGAIN, and the subjugation Florida's state laws have been, well, subjected to, will be seen in some minds as a precedent that state laws don't matter. If you don't agree with the law, sue til' ya find someone that does. That is our right to do so, but it isn't to be used in this instance, to gain power over 'the people'.

They wanna count ballots, not votes. The votes have been counted. Fuck the people if you didn't punch the right hole, you had ample chance to change your vote during the election. And I don't wanna hear any more on these 'chads'. Swinging, hanging, pregnant, if it's not punched thru clearly so the machine could read the vote, IT'S AN INVALID BALLOT!!!! Change the system for the next election if ya don't like it, you voted on it, you approved it. Maybe not YOU personally, but the 'will of the people' approved it. Everybody would like to think that their vote would count, and I sympathize with that, but if you are too stupid to accomplish this intellectual feat called a punch-card, then kiss my ass!! If you're busy playing connect the frigging dots instead of reading the instructions and taking heed to the warnings in the booth that tell ya "if ya fuck up, yer ballot don't count, eh" then I don't want to hear it!! Head for Cuba if ya don't like it!! Their elections are fairly clear-cut, and I'm sure the ballots are REAL easy to read. Say hola to Elian for us. Hell I bet HE would've understood that ballot.

This is why I swear if my future kids wouldn't end up socially retarded, I'd teach em all at home myself. This is the result of years of historical revision at it's finest. People are ignint.
And it seems to be the trend.......
 

later kids
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 06:47:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.28)


Bravo thanks.

Guys ya know what...............Gore has found away to throw out the Military overseas votes over a 1000 of them!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because some of them are missing postmarks which the Navy said is common with mail from them because of a varitey of reasons. Now the nation wide plea Gore made to democratic (what an auximoron) lawyers for help is clear why he wanted it. They have posted laywers in each location counting the overseas ballots and are challenging the signitures on them. These democrates really are a disgrace to this great nation of ours. Yes I am military and yes I know of fellow servicemen that are democrates and I remind them everytime they open thier mouth about the hardships we face from the dismantling of great military.

The news meadia is a disgrace also. With holding news from the people. On msnbc's website you can read about the overseas ballots but not on the television coverge which the MAJORITY of US CITIZENS rely on for thier information.

*#%@ OUT!!!!!!
McGrath
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, Missouri, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 12:25:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)


Comments on Sig P220?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 14:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.22)
Highlights in the news: Hanoi hails Clinton. Military votes don't count, but illegal aliens can vote as many times as they like.

And a bunch of lawyers are trying real hard to slick their way into the White House under the noses of a supposedly soverign people. There they expect to bypass the Legislature and rule (notice I didn't say 'govern') by executive order and court action.

As Gore said, "You ain't seen nothing yet."
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 14:35:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.17)


Bolt, Sig P220- I sure like them. I have a P228, P229, and a P220. They point really well for me and take a real beating. I think that you can also fin a decent used one (police trade in) for $400 or so and magazines are relatively cheap. I have a bunch of high dollar custom 1911s, but I end up reaching for the sigs usually.
 

michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 15:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)


Next question, any comments on Steiner 7x35G binos and Steiners in general? Botach has the 7x35G(discontinued from last year) on sale.

I have decided on two sets of binos; one for field/stalking and one for from observation in general. I don't want to ever have to buy another set so these will have to do me until I take that final dirt nap.

The IOR's are nice and the PX prices are great but from what research I have done they are really heavy versus some of the more name brand sets.

Also, for field work/stalk, do you really need a mildot if you have a mildot scope?

Getting retinally challenged, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 16:10:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.22)


NO DOG SHOOTING ON PUBLIC LAND? Is this only in Colo. ??? Please advise if you have more info... Richard in Pa.. My thoughts on shotguns.. I'm prone to 870s They Have been proven to be cop proof, nuf said. I, like many folks am in favor of ghost ring sights with tritium dot front. A light mount is required for target ID unless you can light up your target area at night. For handiness 14" bbls are hard to beat {$200 to feds}. I get Remington factory 14" bbls from an outfit in Nashville, modified choke is standard although I have mine Vang Comped. One shot mag extension is perfect for 14" gun. I cut my stocks to 12 3/4 " and replace the Express forearm with the police forearm..Short stock would probably be of great benefit to your wife plus makes shouldering the weapon with body armor on better. I like side saddles for slugs {cut the old ones down to three rounds so they are not in the way when holding gun at the balance point}..Wilson now offers a four rounder: no cutting anymore. Recoil of most loads is not a problem if you use a technique originally taught by John Satterwhite {sp?] called dynamic tension.. It is a push pull technique where the support hand forearm absorbs a significant portion of the recoil allowing more comfort and quicker follow up shots. A sling is mandatory... Hope this helps.. markwell out
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
seneca, WV, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 17:31:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.198)
Ref. Combat Shotguns

I can't believe that I got away with my previous post unscathed. Damn! With your attention focused so hard on this non-election I could have posted anything and gotten away with it.

Heads up people, watch your lanes.
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Cllifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 17:55:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.28)


Bolt, Binos- I also bought a pair of the IORs and they are heavy, but really very nice. I can look through them for a long time and my eyes are still relaxed. I don't think that you need the ones with the reticle in them. I asked the Bino question last year and Mr. Undude suggested the IORs. I have been very happy. If I win the lotto I might buy the Leica Geovid then you can have mine!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 18:06:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)
Kevin, you really want to be "scathed" LOL?

IMHO the plain Jane 870 Mag is the most versatile shotgun on the market for quality, price and aftermarket goodies. Nuff said.

On the house cleaning tools we may differ. I live in a "neighborhood" unfortunately and all the windows and stuff like that make me nervous using a rifle caliber. With 8 rounds of number 9 bird shot and an 18" barrel 870 beside the bed I don't really worry about shooting through the windows and walls into my neighbors den. Might hit his case of Bravo brews and really piss him off.

I remain nervous about using any semi-auto weapon for self defense anyway. Have never had my Model 19 or 870 jamb. Also having one under in the chamber without powder in it that pops the cap and doesn't eject kinda makes me pucker also.

If 6 or 8 shots doesn't take care of the problem I deserve what I get anyway. This year I would really like to take a tactical pistol and shotgun course but alas, I think daughter has decided to stay in college. The match in September and having to buy all the accutriments will take all available funds.

Trying to calm down, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 18:27:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.22)


Shotguns: What Markwell said if his police forearm is the one with the sure fire light. His recommendation on stock length is important. Those little cheek-eez pads Brownell's sells are nice. If you are going to change recoil pads, I really like the thick Kick-eez pads. Professional training is by far the best. At a minimum USE the techniques in the Awerbuck and Plaxco videos. Awerbuck has his head on real straight concerning loading and manipulation. Plaxco has some great shooting tips and techniques. The Gunsite tape is real good too. Pick one of the manipulation drills and forget the other exists. If you can get four tapes, John Shaw's is definitely worthwhile. These tapes teach different manipulation drills. Pick ONE and practice it 3,000 times.
 
 

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 19:05:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.84)


Confession: I've never heard of the "push pull" technique.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 19:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.84)


Markwell;
I thought the transfer fee on AOW's was $5.00 all other NFA weapons $200.But I've been wrong before.

I carry a Mossberg 500A persuader 20" for a truck gun and home defense/offense loaded with 8rds federal tactical #4 buck reduced recoil.I live in a small frame house with a wife and two small children and am not interested in taking one of them out with a rifle round zinging through the walls.Colateral damage is tantamount in an urban environment. Test some household building materials like sheetrock or paneling or pine 2x4's.It takes a LOT of layers to even slow down a centerfire rifle round of any caliber.Part of my shooting range uses creosote phone poles for support and .223 or .308 will easily exit them at 30 yards.Would I shoot anything knowing my family is downrange?Not bloody likely(for you Brit's).Have I seen boolets swap direction in wood?Absolutely.To each his own but make mine a "gauge"Oh yea....there ain't nothing wrong with an 870.Kevlar may stop 12 ga but they will think that Arnold Swarzneggar just hit them in the chest with a 4 pound hammer,and will certainly take the fight out of most folks.Shoot 'em....close...shoot 'em some more.
BruceE <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 19:23:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.59)


Bolt: if Jeff Cooper is to be trusted, and in my opinion he *IS*, then a model 19 is less reliable in some situations than an auto. Those situations aren't to be had in towns and cities ordinarily, but in the field. Until hearing of this, my 357 L frame was king. Now my Glock is.

As for shotguns: I see no need for one. 55's don't go through house materials well, and my family will be behind me at all times in case of a "bad time". But that's due to where I live and the area I live in. Looking out my front window, I've got a good line of sight. This next 5.56 will have a "permanently attached" flash hider on a 14.5" barrel. No bayo lug though, to keep the atf from making ME the next attrocity.

I'll second my good friend Michael on the IOR's. I traded Mike Miller for a few minutes to try his IORs against mine. I liked his better, and so did he ;-) I like the idea of the graticule in them, but unsupported I shake too much with my 7's to range accurately with them. Maybe a 6X. They're a good bino! And I'll also agree with your SIG statements. Very boring pistols. They work every time and you hit what you aim at. The double action is probably the smoothest I've ever felt as factory stock, but I couldn't get used to it. On my list of pistols to try is the Sig P-210.

JR: so what did you really mean? HA! That's why we're a representative republic, not a democracy. If we were still following the founding fathers Constitution, we couldn't vote for senators, and states rights would be stronger. As for homeschooling, you think your kids will be any more socially adept once they come home and tell you that you're trying to kill them by having arms and ammo in the house? The communists have a firm entrenchment in education. Remember, one of the planks of the communist manefesto is "free education". But the communists perfected the system with free "re-education", as an indoctrination source, which excludes "unnecessary" subjects such as history and government. Ignorance is their friend. Patriotism is ours.
Bravo - Patriots USA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, once known as the great, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 20:01:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.224)


Ok, serious discussion of the IOR's. We have 8x30, 7x40, 10x40, 10x50.

Range finders in bino's. - I know I have a hard enough time keeping a rifle and scope still enough to range with the mildots, the least little shake on my spotting scope makes the dots look like dancing blobs. I get the feeling here that even in a supported position, bino's with range finders are tough to use.

We have IR detection and non-IR. – Is this a useful feature or something else to go wrong?

We have 8, 7 and 10 power. – For stalking and spying would the 10 power be overkill or are you just trying to check out the landscape for the boogy man or movement?

For Long Range observation. – Is the 10x40 the way to go or the 10x50?

I know this is getting tedious but would rather bore you than break my billfold for nothing. I still have a set of 30 year old Bell and Howells if that tells you anything.

A bino-challenged Bolt, OUT!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 20:33:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.22)


Sorry to do this to you guys, but I just gotta.
From World Net Daily, I got this, and when I saw it, I got red. Florida Attorney General and Gore supporter Bob Butterworth is now an elector. WorldNetDaily confirmed Butterworth's elector status with his office on Friday, but a spokesman for the AG refused to elaborate on questions regarding potential conflicts of interest. The Bush campaign told WND it was aware of Butterworth's status. What conflicts of interest? WELL, LET ME TELL 'YA! Article II Section 1 of the United States Constitution says: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators or Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."
So the question now is, do the people of Florida not care that their attourney general is violating the Constitution, or do they hold him in such low esteem that he can't possibly be in an Office of Trust?
Bravo - PatriotsUSA <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, wanting to split, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 22:12:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.146)
Doom and Gloom
I've seen nothing but Doom and Gloom on this site.

You guys have got to start looking at the bright side of algore as Fearless Leader.
For instance: he's bound to have a positive - if temporary - effect upon some parts of our economy!

Now, if I were a Louis Rukeyser Elf, I'd be suggesting that you consider all the industries that will temporarily gain additional income as they struggle to meet consumer demand.
For instance- Bravo has mentioned a gigantic ammunition sales upswing.

Now, how are all these enemies of our new and glorious algore led socialist society going to STORE all that ammunition?

RIGHT! They need PLUMBING SUPPLIES !
Any company manufacturing 6" PVC schedule 40 tube, end caps & PVC glue will experience growth.
Trucking companies hauling it from the factory to the plumbing supply stores will also see quarterly increases due to demand for PVC products.

Shovels will be in demand - and that means some steel and wood supply industries along with hardware store sales increases.

Crude Oil Demand Up:
Last I heard, we need crude oil to manufacture PVC and cosmolene; gasoline and diesel oil for transport.

algore and the environment.
All that digging aerates the topsoil.
Thousands- if not millions- of PVC cache tubes will be buried by people around this vast country.

The Printing Industry:
Software that allows printing double byte fonts will be in demand as people in Amerika struggle to learn Chinese.

Little Red Books will need to be printed in order to properly glorify our Fearless Leader.
Don't forget gigantic posters with the likeness of our Fearless Leader.
More paper products and more ink in demand; it all needs transport.

An Exchange of Ideas:
The American public will learn new customs and vocabulary as we learn the true meaning of term "to kowtow". For example: "Our President kowtows to a hostile and dangerous foreign government."

Foreign Trade:
We send the Peoples Republic of China all our money and they send us manufactured goods once made in our country.

Well, OK.
We ALREADY do that.

Actually, the increase in trade will occur mostly with those Buddhist monks and Communists that contribute most to algore's personal economy- and those of his cronies.

They WILL need to store and spend all that extra cash SOMEWHERE.

I fully expect algore to do to the USA what Al Capone did to Chicago, Illinois in the 1930s.

Last but not least:
algore is only President so long as Comrade Hillary allows him to be President!

Now, discuss amongst yourselves.

If you need further economic guidance, I suggest you contact Louis Rukeyser c/o www.pbs.org.

I'll get back in my foxhole and be quiet now.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Number 6 <nombre_6@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 22:24:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)


It appears the Democrats didn't have the foresight to stuff the overseas mailbags. They haven't been able to disqualify enough military. It doesn't appear that the cheat-count isn't going to turn up enough votes to put Gore over the top. They showed their hand so, if they don't take it all now, they are screwed hard. They know this. Come on January 20.

Ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."

870 note: I've never shot full-house loads from a 14" bbl. Us guys in "candy-ass class" don't care to.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 22:41:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.56)


Hey guys,
Time to pick your knowledge filled brains again,just saw some stuff on this 300WSM (winchester short magnum). It reminds me a lot of the 300 Jamison are they the same or how much difference is there between the two? Thanx for you time and help if you can lend any.

Marc <onesonek@hotmail.com>
Pa, USA - Saturday, November 18, 2000 at 22:57:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.20.71.128)