October 1998

I saw your post re: SMTC. I emailed Rod and Gooch earlier today. Just got home from work,and Rod returned mail w/ the 99 schedule. So, I pasted the whole thing on an email to you a few minutes ago. I didn't edit anything from his mail so pardon any of my jabber. Let me know if you got it.

Also, I have been shooting the 260 and it just sings. Doesn't seem to matter what I feed it. It is a female rifle, I think. It has that certain karma. If Lauren Bacall were reincarnated as a rifle, she would be a 260. Yes she would: a magnificent stainless steel harmonically perfect siren subtley sending 140 gr molyed VLDs on an unerring course as the ocean waves crash against the jagged ivory shoreline... uh, sorry , I was doing a little tangential slide, there....

Anyway, I shot the 260 in a tactical match at Ft. Benning. It did fine. I had an adrenaline buzz for two days afterward. Last Mon. I continued load testing, and everything delivers 1/2 MOA or better. Also, this is interesting. A guy showed up w/ a chrony and let me run ten shots. Varget 38.0 gr, Berger 140 VLD times 10. Results: Avg. Vel. 2646 fps, Extreme Spread 26, Avg. Dev. 6.9.. Not bad. I ran the avg. vel. thru a ballistics program and plugged in conditions just to see. Vel. at 1000 yds is still 1500 fps. N135, N140, N150, N160, Varget, and dried horse shit.. it doesn't matter. They all give 1/2 MOA or better.

The Berger/Varget and 142 MK/VV N160 combos have been tested 3 or 4 times just to see. Same result. That's the compressed version. I'll email you the full story or I'll get put into the "long post" penalty box. Perhaps I should detach just a bit from this obsessive pursuit of small shot groups. But, hell, it's so much fun.

During the match at Benning, did all this small group stuff make a diff? Probably not. Especially when yours truly gets a little pucker factor match pressure on him. It sort of offsets the inherent accuracy of the rifle. But, in all fairness, I did do better this time. It was my second match and I only shot out three windshields and six car tires. Hit the target a couple of times too.

One more thing. Got a copy of "Time To Hunt". Stephen Hunter's latest offering. Everybody, give this book a read. It is a great story.

Gooch:

Thanks again for the direction re: SMTC and the ghillie. Looks like a trip to Ranger Joe's in the very near future. I ran a hard copy of your mail and will take it w/ me.

Now I know for sure why wrapping lawn clippings around my head with Duct Tape wasn't causing me to blend in w/ my surroundings. Everyone of the patrons perusing the garden section at Home Depot spotted me instantly.

Seriously, thank you and again, congrats.

Rod Ryan:

Thank you for responding to my email. If a newcomer stands a chance at handling the basic course, then I must start planning.

Russ:

Got a note from Richard's Microfit. Stock's on the way. Time to sleep by the mailbox, again.
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Having my 17th cup of coffee in good ole Smyrna, Ga. USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 00:13:34 (EDT)

To Steve, re. EAW

The EAW sidemount is actually a "long-rail". This mount is no copy of a WW2-mount. I think the EAW is the best sidemount. It's all steel, two levers on the baseclamp. It works best with a 6X42, 1"/26mm tube, scope. Price in Norway is app. $250-300 US.

To Jeff A and Pat.

Glad to see you are happy with the .260/6.5-08 project. I'm going to build a 6.5X55 on a Mauser M98 action.

To Gooch.

Congrats on the new "civilian" job!
 

TorF
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 04:32:20 (EDT)

In addition to what x-ring had to say ... Badger Ord. makes a fine ring and mount set ... This set was recommended to me by McMillan ... The rings are milled not forged like the mk4 rings ...
Sam Cushway III <hoyo50@hotmail.com>
Nichigan City, IN USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 05:15:45 (EDT)

FYI: Called Andy Webber Wed. PM (Armament Tech.) he refered me to Badger for rings and mounts.

Cost for the Milled and numbered rings was 97.50 and the 20MOA mount was 100.

Phone # 816-455-3704 you will get a recording (he works full time at CZ)make you happy Scott? He may to sponsering a shooter you know.

Name: Marty Broadson
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:00:42 (EDT)

Mr. Bain: Would you mind if I sent all my writings to you for repair before they are sent out? I guess my public school edumacation is showing through. Been up for about 36 now and things are running together.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Can't , Spell USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:08:11 (EDT)

Pat: Dual Dove Tails seem to work very well, as exhibited by the M40A1 mount and, I believe the Chandler mount - although I am not sure if he uses this system or not, but on first glance, it looks like it. It would seem that the Dual Dove tail system is as secure a system as any other!

My personal feeling though is that I would prefer to be able to remove the rings/scope with out having to remove the scope from the rings and then twist the rings out of the base. I like the Mk4 Method for three reasons.
One: If my scope goes down, I can install a pre-zeroed back-up in a couple of seconds if needed. You just can not do that with a dove tail.
Two: If you make it a policy to Lap in the rings for 100% mating contact, you will have to re-lap the dove tail set each time you wish to reinstall them. As you will be twisting the set in, the odds of perfect alignment on reinstallation are not good unless you are meticulous. I am sure you could get them VERY close, but you’d still want to lap them to be sure. Why would you remove them? See # three.
Three: If you ever HAVE to remove the scope for maintenance, gunsmith work, action work, or simply to test another scope, it is very easy with the Mk4 system. With it you can take a scope off and reinstall it with very little (if any) shift in zero.

None of these reasons invalidate a good strong dual dove tail! It comes down to preference and usage. If a police sniper or military sniper ever need to switch over to night vision, the Mk4 system is nearly ideal as it allows the user to swap out optics consistently whenever the need arises. With a more permanent system like the Dove tail, you are pretty much stuck with one optic for the life of the rifle. Again, that is not bad at all, depending on your use.

Another advantage that many find in the cross slotted weaver type mount: Many scopes do not have enough elevation to reach 1000 yards. There are a wealth of MK4 style tapered mounts on the market today! They come in every price range and strength. In short, the Mk4 system is simply the most versatile system available - BUT it is no better in terms of strength that a good Dove tail. If all you envision is ONE scope for the life of the system, than a good dove tail system is a good option.

Last comment: Before any one gets carried away and starts mounting multiple ring set on a scope base, talk to a good engineer (NOT a Custom gunsmith!). This new trend of putting four rings on a base is down right stupid. And unnecessary! There, THAT aught to get some argument going!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:12:51 (EDT)

First, thanks for all the great information.

I just bought two cases of Federal GM unprimed brass for my .300 Win. I have been sorting and can not beleive this stuff is the best. I have about 250 rounds left out of a 1000. This is after pulling for scratches on the cases (anything that will hang a fingernail), weight of case (within a 2 grain spread), and case neck run out (under 0.002). Is this normal or did I get a bad batch? Am I just being to damn picky? Is there any thing else I should check for?

Thanks a lot for any help,

5-cent
5-cent <nickel@lewiston.com>
Lewiston, ID USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:18:38 (EDT)

Rod! Thank's a lot on the Badger info. I completely forgot to ask Andy this the other evening. You sir, are one fine Gentleman...for a Berretta guy...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:18:50 (EDT)

Guess no one has ever heard of or used a Carson Lens pen. I'll give it a go and see what happens.

We're having a big "shoot" here at the "ranch" this Saturday, should be a lot of fun. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Russ: Will try the bullets we discussed at 200 yds and let you know.

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:20:31 (EDT)

Gramps: Sorry! I completely forgot about the request for info on the Lens Pen! Yeah, I have used them. I have several from Leupold, Carson and I think Pentax. I agree about the consern. I use them, but am equally confused about the notation on using for camera lenses. I do not know whether the pen will affect and lens coating on rifle optics or not. IT does get the lens clean though. And I have not noticed any negative affect...yet.
If you are worried, just keep a camera lens cleaning kit in you tool box and avoid the lens pens.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:25:49 (EDT)

Jeff A.

Welcome back Buddy!! I thought we lost you but after reading your post I understand now. Did the "Shock" treatments hurt??(HA) Thanks for the info on Storm Moutain scheduleing. Sounds like the 260s doing well!! I just recieved my dies and brass and some 140MKs. I need to send a seated round to my gunsmith he will cut the reamer to my specs. I dont have a bullet comparator for the 6.5 so I guess I will just go on overall length and hope for the best.I was thinking of seating them a little shy of 2.800 like around 2.780 to give me room to play with the longer VLD bullets. My only concern is how much case it takes up. Do you have any suggestions?? What is your OAL on the 140MK??

Torf,
I noticed Jeff said his loads were in the 2650fps range will the 260 go to 2750fps with out pressure signs?? If so whats the best powder to use??

Scott, or ??
Still wondering about the strength of the dual dove tail vs. the MK4s.
 

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 09:59:19 (EDT)

x-ring -- I believe you just called me stupid ...
Sam Cushway III <hoyo50@hotmail.com>
Michigan City, IN USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 11:05:28 (EDT)

Just picked up AR10T from a friend (It's already been back to the factory to be made right). The rifle shoots about 1/2 to 3/4 minute, depending on the load. I want to use it for NRA Match Rifle Competition and I am looking for a Handguard for a sliding handstop. The standard AR15 type will not work on a .308. Does anyone know where I can find one? For Sniper Work I'll stick with a bolt gun. Thanks for any help. About rings and mounts, I have had good luck with both Mk4 and Dual Dovetail Mounts. What is the problem with them? The ignorant have to know.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL>
Calif. USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 11:25:34 (EDT)

Guten Morgen Mädels!

I´m back home and have cleared my desk of all the alligators that had nested in it since I left for SOF.

It was great to meet all of you that were there, and I wish we could have spend more time together. I will try to visit Rod and Gooch (congrat´s)at SMTC after the SHOT Show. I´ll try to round up some more buddies of mine to come along.

What was that time frame again for the SC get together ???

Good stuff on rifle camo, I missed out on all the fun.

I scooped up a torque wrench from Billy Martin (LOD) that locks when turning counter clockwise so that you can open as well as torque.

Gooch, I bought M Lau´s book. Vee haf a pikture off you now in our files, Herr Gooch! "Left turn Clide !!"
Nice trick with the "peanut" for lighting the reticle, used that for long with our G-3 scopes as they have a special opening on the side to slide on a little lamp (with a 2lbs battery box attched).

Rick, you are so right about having to drop a student, but it is only seldom that we as teachers/instructors give us the blame for their lack of knowledge. I will burn it into a slab of oak and hang it up over the door of our NCO "Coffeebunker"
Good to be back and get my SC fix.

"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@home.globe.de>
back in Germany, again - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EDT)

Pat:

Re; The shock treatments. I shorted their machine out last time. They got their collective underwear in a wad and told me to never come back. " Well, just excuuuuuuuse me, O derelict denizens of the medical world. You shouldn't have used a car battery as your power source. I told you before we started that I had switched to moly sulfide xtra hold styling hair spritz before you attached the electrodes to the frontal lobes, now didn't I?

Cartridge OAL when using the 140MKs has been 2.768 to 2.770". This is w/ seating 0.010" off lans. I've notice cartridge OAL will vary, but measurement to ogive stays pretty much constant.

As far as I know, there isn't a comparator avail for 6.5mm, so I've use a crudder(read more primitive) method. It required sacrificing a few of ea bullet type and a few cases:

Initially, seat the bullet deliberatley too far out. Place in chamber and close and lock bolt. Remove round. You will see some righteous rifling marks. This process will have seated bullet farther into case. This a crude starting point.
Then, place this round into seater die. The Redding micrometer comes in real handy about now. Spin micrometer down to make contact. Then spin down a little more,say, 0.010". At this point it becomes a guessing game of sorts. Seat another, unmarked bullet in another case at this setting. Chamber this rd. and check for rifling marks. If marks are still pronounced ie. much longer than wide, then down another 0.010 or so on the micrometer. This took me a few tries. Anyway, when the rifling marks are approx. 1/2 as long as they are wide, I called that touching the lans. From that point, I could set the micrometer 2 or 3 thousandths lower and get no marks upon chambering. Then, whatever setting gave the "touching lans" effect, I would double or triple check with another of same bullet type. Then , make up a dummy rd. and record data on that case: mainly bullet type and micrometer setting that yielded desired rifling marks. The "lans toucher dummy rd." if you please. Every time I cha! nged the die setting for another bullet type, I would recheck the "lans" setting to see if it still gave me the " just touching" effect. So far it has worked, it just took some time.

Obviously, I couldn't use the Stoney Point tool, so this was a sort of shade tree synthesis to hopefully accomplish the same task. Was this accurate? Beats the hell outta me. But, the 260 seemed think it was okey doke..

Russ:

Did the email and CC do right? Rifle project karma.. It's a very powerful force, is it not?

TorF:

I say yet again. You were "right as the mail" about the 6.5-08/260.

Well, my butt is stuck to the chair. Not good. Time to go play w/ my barbells downstairs. In need of an endorphin buzz..

Mr. Bain:

I have now offically started my PT program for SMTC preparation. I remember reading your post about physical cond. for your SMTC experience. I'm hoping for a chance to attend.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 12:27:38 (EDT)

Scott,
THANK YOU!! I posted to early and I guess your post was already on the way!! You confirmed what I thought but it's always nice to hear it from someone else too. I know what your saying about changing scopes but for the price difference I have to stay with the dual dove tail. My main concern was the stretgh issue and I've always been afraid of the older style, with the windage screw, tearing out or comming loose at the most inapproiate time. With a last name like Murphy, MURPHY'S LAW is never far away(HA) Thanks again Scott I do appreciate the imput from all you guys.

Jeff A.
From you OAL I must be real close then. I have mine at 2.780 and that will be touching the lans so I think I'll stay with that. It looked like a good compermise between the magazine length and not taking up to much case capacity. Damn I just can't wait to get it back!! I hope I get it before the weather turns cold. Its tough doing load development in below zero temps!!!(Maybe I need to see your Doctor??)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 13:02:44 (EDT)

Scott: Thanks for the reply. That statement on the package makes ya wonder doesn't it? I have always used a camera lens cleaning kit for my scopes but this seems like a good way to go if it works right.

Torsten: Welcome back! Sorry we didn't get together while you were here, I had the hot tub, girls and cammo jello all ready! Just downloaded your e-mail and will check it out when I leave SC. Stay low!

Out here
Gramps <Draider6@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 14:54:11 (EDT)

5-Cent,
I know this will probably start a real S..T storm but here goes....I agree with you 100% on the Federal brass. I have found the same thing when I bought a bunch of it. It was the most inconsistant brass I had ever checked!! I finally sold it and went to Winchester and have had real good luck with it. I will say that some of the Federal Brass I have shot has shot, well for what ever reason, but after checking it I now stay away from it. I have even checked the once fired brass from Federal Match with the same results. With that said, like Sarge, I will duck into my hide and await the incomming!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 15:49:31 (EDT)

to the guy looking for hart rifle barrels:

Hart Rifle Barrels
PO Box 182
LaFayette, NY 13084
315-677-9841

Hope this helps.
 

dan basso <aol www.gdbas.com>
pawlimg, nyto the guy USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 17:13:58 (EDT)

Scott - I agree with you 100% on the multiple ring debacle. The only thing I can think of is the SIMRAD mount was made to place the top half of the ring on the bottom rear portion of the mount. I started seeing two rings on the front of the scopes instead of the top ring. This causes no end to zero and return to zero problems. Not to mention that it is a massive waste of money (Sorry Sam, but if you are mounting more than one set of rings to the base, then...). The additional torque placed on the scope tube is totally unecessary and could damage a perectly good scope. Yes, lapping will take care of the fit, but most shooters do not know about lapping and only follow trends that, could in the long run, do more damage than good. Thus, Scott your statement and warning are very valid and prudent.

Just a quicky this time guys.
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, October 01, 1998 at 18:24:28 (EDT)

My fix, my fix!!!! What commy B!*@#^$ did this!!!!

The inhumaity, the horror!!!!

Where's my valium!!

Gooch
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 12:14:05 (EDT) 

And I'll be in the field all weekend, so I'll be having serious Duty Roster withdrawals by Monday...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 12:41:54 (EDT) 

Gooch,
Thanks for the comeback on e.mail. I would love to take one of your course's!! Esp. for the field craft. I will start saving my pennies and hope for a slot in the fall if it would workout.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 13:15:31 (EDT) 

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Stuck in the phone booth someewhere in, West Virginia USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 13:37:22 (EDT)

Bach Melick <tmelick@monbar.com>
New Orleans, LA USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 15:24:29 (EDT) 

On to other ammo: There's a interesting tibit in the new Small Arms Review regarding the M118LR. Seems that after some glitches last year (high pressures and bullet instablility) that this summer Winchester started production of its first run of the stuff, sans the aformentioned glitches. Anyone been able to play with any yet? Now there is some ammo where picking up some contract overrun might be a good thing...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 15:38:42 (EDT) 

Now, which barrel length is best, now that's another story...

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 15:43:51 (EDT) 

The M21/M25 rifles have 22" barrels. Why? I dunno.

Dave: Regarding the .45 ammo by Federal, I've a friend who is the regional sales rep. for Federal in my AO. I believe he told me that the stuff was for an overseas (middle eastern) government. I've shot the same stuff in two .45s of mine (one a Gunsite custom 1911 and the other a bone stock Colt Commander) and not had any problems.

On the M118LR piece in S.A.R., well, I find it interesting. I don't read the publication as I find their editorial standards lacking (insufficient proofreading). There are some good writers for the magazine. (Indeed, I know one of their regulars, another lawyer.) I would like to hear more of the article. To my knowledge M118LR is made only at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant, a government-owned and contractor-operated (GOCO) facility. Olin has the contract for LC and produces .223, 7.62, 50 cal. and 20mm munitions at the plant (using only about 15% of the plant's capacity). Does Winchester own Olin? (I can't keep track of the mergers and acquisitions these days.)
Also, don't know what the "pressure" issues are that the article refers to, but I can tell you that as a result of a faulty Oehler chronograph and the Marines' misuse of a SAAMI spec., the original test runs of M118LR were found to be "overpressure" and the Marines delayed their acceptance of the cartridge pending further testing. This did not affect ARDEC's development of the round at all. After recalibrating the chrono, the Marines reshot the same lot of ammo (last Nov. or Dec., I believe), still using the SAAMI spec. incorrectly, and this time got acceptable pressure readings. If you want to know more, another friend of mine has an article in next month's TS on the M852 and M118LR rounds. His dope is dead on; he spoke directly with the M118LR project manager. One final note; only the Navy and Marines have signed onto the use of M118LR. The Army and SOCOM have not yet done so. It was a Marine project, after all.

Bain

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 17:52:43 (EDT) 

Have fun guys and gals!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 20:26:56 (EDT) 

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 20:32:56 (EDT) 

I recently purchased a set of mark 4 rings and bases (49955 rings, and
51731 bases) and I must say that I am a bit disappointed. The appearance of the Rings is less than I expected from Leupold. The exterior of the ring is rough with many part lines and grinder marks. The scope tube bore in the rings is what really disappointed me, the surface finnish is of much lower quality than any of my other Leupold rings. I feel that these rings would require considerable lapping to avoid damaging the tube of my also new mark 4 M3. I have a set of your QRW mounts on my .458 and they clearly have a much higher quality of machine work. I have been, and continue to be a loyal Leupold scope customer, but this really suprised me. I would very much appreciate it if you would allow me to exchange these rings and bases for other leupold merchandise as "Jerrys" will not allow me to return them for a refund. Thank you for your time.

this is what I got back:

The problems you describe are in no way indicative of the general
quality of the Mark 4 mounting system. We would like the opportunity to exchange them for a new set and prove to you that the Mark 4 system is one of the highest quality.
John E. Riutta
jriutta@leupold.com
Leupold Technical Representative
(503) 646-9171 x. 546
Leupold Technical Service
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 21:26:30 (EDT) 

As a point of protocol I am responding to correct some improper forms of address used towards Warrant Treger. For listers not familiar with the Canadian Forces rank structure their polite forms of address have overpromoted him! Face to face that means holding down the parade square with outstretched arms until it stops moving or an extra duty or two.

There are only two career streams in the CF - officer and noncommissioned. There is no third Warrant Officer stream like the US for example. A Warrant Officer is one rank above Sergeant, and below Master Warrant Officer and Chief Warrant Officer. Privates move up to Corporal, then promoted to Master Corporal and Sergeant. There are several pay levels in each rank depending on Time In Rank and courses. A Warrant would be the experienced leader in a platoon teaching the Lieutenant and keeping the men in line.

Warrant Officers and above are addressed as Sir/Ma'am or by their rank. Only the Commanding Officer can get away with calling a Chief Warrant Officer as "Mister". By the way, Warrants and above have special disciplinary "protections", and certain charges can only be heard by a Brigadier General.

Therefore, Warrant Officer Treger is Sir or Warrant. And always to be listened to.

Terry Warner
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 22:35:55 (EDT) 

Does anyone have any info re: the 175gr Federal Match ammo.? If I can get signed up, I'm going to shoot in a match in Ala. the weekend of Oct. 17-18. It will be 15 shots in 15 min.: 5 @ 600yd, 5 @ 800yd, and 5 @ 1000yd. no sighters.

It will be .308 only, and issued ammo will be the Fed. 175gr match. I guess that's Fed. gold match 175? The match will be on 10/17, but the range will be open on 10/16 all day for zeroing rifles. I will buy extra for zeroing, but I figure if the chance to get any extra practice presents itself, then I want to also have some handloads to practice with as well. I just don't have acces to this kind of distance and want to take advantage of this if possible.

So, does anyone know what the muzzle vel. is for the Fed. 175? I have 175 Sierra and Berger on hand and want to load to test performance. Any ideas on powder type and chg. wt. that can duplicate Fed. 175 match? My rifle is a M700 SA w/ a 26" K&P barrell w/ 11.2 twist. I've been busy w/ the 260 and now want to focus on load devel. for the .308. It shoots great but I'm wanting to tweak it w/ some load test to fit this Fed. ammo.

Help Guys...
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Smyrna, Ga. USA - Friday, October 02, 1998 at 23:13:10 (EDT) 

Thanks for the email. I found the site you mentioned. Also, I tried to copy/paste the table they had and send it to you as well, but it got rearranged into "numerical soup".

And, it has become clear to me that a chronograph needs to added to my humble armada of shooting stuff.

Peter:

Thanks for the .308 recipe. I will give it a try. Hope you got my email.
 

Marius:

Thank you for the great job you do w/ the Roster website. I don't know what all is involved w/ keeping the Roster (or any other site) up and running. I suppose I just take it for granted not realizing that somebody just might be busting ass to keep it flying smoothly. And when something goes south ( ie Murphy rears his/her ugly head), then somebody's there to make it right. Keep up the excellent work..

Pat:

Did you get my email?
 

Jeff returns to his near invisible hide and patiently waits, in a state of constant readiness... (read: he crawls under the bed, sucks his thumb while curled up in the fetal position and seeks contact comfort by clutching his inflatable Bob the Nailer doll..)
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
trying to wake up in Smyrna, Ga USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 11:20:22 (EDT) 

This technique is basically taught only at the USMC Primary Marksmanship Instructor (PMI) Course/Small Arms Weapon Instructor Course (SAWIC) and the National Guard's Small Arms Instructor Range Operators Course (SAIROC) and the NG Master Marksman Trainer Course (MMTC). It is decribed in US Army FM 23-9.

The USMC Recruit Depots/Reserve units and the National Guard use either Firearms Training Systems (FATS) Indoor Simulated Marksmanhip Trainer's (ISMT) or Engagement Skills Trainer's (EST). These are large screen video games that allow the shooter using actual modified CO2 operated weapons (M16A2, M9, M203, M249, M2 etc, etc.) to SIMULATE firing entire courses of fire, diagnostic exercises and tactical scenarios. Some units still have a device called the Weaponeer which does basically the same thing being restricted to diagnostic exercises.

The Guard also has a super nintendo based device called the MACS which does a pretty good job of diagnosing aiming and trigger control problems.

We marksmanship trainers are always having to fight the powers that be to keep out ammunition allocations up becuase of the ISMT and EST machines. Techno geeks every now and then will try to reduce ammo and increase simulator usage. The industrial/military complex at work!

If you have a National Guard or USMC Reserve unit in your AO you can probably talk them into letting you take a look at the FATS machines.

Mr. Warner. OK, from now on address Rick as Master Sergeant, myself as Chief Warrent Officer 2, Russ as Captain and all other military and LE types will be required to add thier Ranks to thier posts. Before posting we will forward a copy of our promotion warrants to Mr Bain for confirmation and filing. JUST JOKING!:-> Ha ha.

Warrant Treger is a friend of mine and on this site he calls me Gooch or dick head and I refer to him as the old man, old fart or toothless one.

Pretty sad when a military will provide sex change operations but not fix a Warrants tooth huh Grant?

Anybody with a grain of intelligence will always listen to Warrant Treger.

Kent W. Gooch, CWO2, USMC (ret).
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 11:37:23 (EDT) 

Tell you what. I'll call you Gunner (were you a Marine Gunner, by the way?), you call me Skipper, and let's all just relax a little bit! :)
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 13:08:48 (EDT) 

"Gunner". I like that Skipper. Maybe I'll revert back to that. Better than shithead.

"Gunner" Gooch.
 

Gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, Ar USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 13:26:00 (EDT) 

By the way--how right you are about the techno-geeks wanting to replace live rounds with electronics! Do you still get the Gazette? I wrote a fairly scathing letter, which they published around March, criticizing a guy who thought the answer to our marksmanship woes was crap like (he was serious, here) an electric trigger, red-dot optical sights, etc., on the basic rifle. "Sorry, sir, the platoon can't fight cuz we're outta batteries." (Article was published around January, if you didn't read it.) Even if they worked, they'd be just more excuses to train less. Why not just have every Marine carry some kinda robot that can shoot whatever the user tells it to? Where are our priorities?!

Problem is, the guys who make the budget aren't the guys who write the ITS standards. From an artilleryman's perspective, the ITS requires us to fire "X" rounds of various types per battery, annually, on various types of missions. That is, as I read the Order, we HAVE to shoot them, or we're not in compliance. Well, the number of rounds available to fire in a given year is something like fifty- to seventy-five percent of "X." You tell me: are we properly trained? Not according to our own standards we ain't!! And there is no ISMT for the M198! It wouldn't matter if there were: we're so poor that our biggest concern is keeping our ancient, broken-down gear serviceable. Thus, we spend all our time on maintenance and counting widgets to make sure we haven't lost any, instead of training. Priorities, priorities...

I am quite sure the infantry isn't in any better shape. Snipers? Well....I did a stint FAP'd over at Range Control at Camp Lejeune a while back. Very enlightening, because you see who's training, how much they're shooting, etc. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I saw STA platoons out firing the sniper rifle in a six-month period. Considering that there are nine infantry battalions at Lejeune, and thus at least nine STA platoons (I don't know what the SRIG has, so I'll leave them out)...that doesn't sound too good to me.

My apologies to the SC council for being so wordy. This subject really gets me going...
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 15:27:39 (EDT) 

thanks for the message on the LINKS page - I saw it only now. Did not have time to read the Roster till now, as my normal reading time was spent fixing it :-( Hopefully Mr. Bain has a copy to upload, as I don't! Else Russ will have to do so tomorrow when he returns from his holidaying weekend again :-)

Jeff A./Kodiak
thanks for the kind words - it is much appreciated.

BTW, I have changed the input size of this typing area as well - not enough darn space to see what one types. :-(

Marius Ferreira, Captain, South African Artillery, Retired.

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 16:17:37 (EDT) 

never mind the length, as long as it is good.

BTW, for those interested in the Ferreira family, look at the following URL ( I've never attempted adding a link like this, so let us see - if it doesn't work I'll fix tomorrow when I archive )
Ferreira
I just have to brag with my riches :-)

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 16:58:42 (EDT) 

Secondly the local Army/Navy store here has what apear to be new m-1950 parachute weapons case's . Are these a suitable start for a drag bag ? or of any use at all ? They also have large rolls of OD burlap in about a 2' width might be of some use for weapons cammo.

any comments are apreciated
Sorry aabout the length of the post

Grey <Greywuuf@alaska.net>
Fairbanks, AK USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 18:28:56 (EDT) 

Keith Camardo <batcam1@aol.com>
beaverton, oregon USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 19:13:28 (EDT) 

Anyway!! The gentleman asking about the barrel lengths of 26 vs 24. With the 308 caliber, once pushed to the 1000 yard mark, whether the bullet stays supersonic is kind of iffy. First if you are shooting a 168 grainer Fed Match ammo, out at 1000 the velocity is right at the border mark of the speed of sound. Once it goes from supersonic to trans-sonic to subsonic, many variables have to be taken into consideration and the inherent accuracy is then a crap shoot.

However, with a 30 caliber magnum, lets say a 300 Win Mag, if you loaded it correctly, your muzzle velocity will be approximately 300 fps (plus) than the 308 and a 26 inch barrel is fully warranted, because your velocity at 1000 yards will still be supersonic and then some.

Now adding just the 2 inches of barrel to the 308 will increase its velocity by 90 tp 120 fps, but still would not justify the 1000 yard shot.

I'm sure there are some who would agree with me and some who would disagree. C'mon I'm your whipping boy for these next couple of rounds.

Oh, Mr Kent C Gooch, Congratulations Mister!

Believe me when I tell you that is nice to be home again!
And I'll be leaving in two weeks for Colorado to do a little elk hunting outside of Steamboat Springs. Using a 7mm Weatherby Mag for the task. Any comments on that!

al
 

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Cleveland Indians Country in the Mystic and Barbarous lands of the Grand Republic of, Ohio USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 22:50:09 (EDT) 

I sent you email a few minutes ago. Did you receive it?

Gentlemen:

Went to a local gun show today. A guy was selling Mauser 98 action/trigger assys. for 75.00. The countries of manuf. were:
Czech., Mexico, Belgium. All were 75.00 . Some were what he called large ring and some small ring. I assume that's a diff. in receiver ring size. These were all complete, in tact, working units that all looked to be in very good shape. I played with a few and all seemed to function perfectly. I'm not a gunsmith so I would not know where to look for good or bad things. But just to look at and handle them, they seemed very strong and all seemed to operate smoothly. To me, anyway, the trigger pulls seemed rather "long" and could stand some lightening. He was also selling complete Mauser rifles for 150.00 . He had maybe 20-25 of the rifles. All were priced at 150.00.

Anyway, does this sound like something good? Is this a good price for a Mauser action/trigger assy? TorF? Speak to me..

Also, I found a Rem 721 LA w/ Std. boltface on a 30-06 rifle. The action interested me. The old gentleman vendor and I got to talking, and he said he would sell me th rifle for 250.00. It seemed to be in pretty good shape, as well. Serial nos. on bolt and receiver matched.
The camming surface on the bolt handle had a few dings of dents but it still operated very smoothly. Is this a good find?

Al? How about it?

Oh, also found two Rem. Mohawk actions: one a 660 and one a 600. Both were small bolt face (22-250 or 220 swift, not sure). I sort of dismissed these because they were not 308 boltface. So, what about these? I really don't know sometimes if I may be on to something good or not. I think a Mohawk 600 or 660 is a pretty rare bird.

See, it's Saturday right now (Gee, that boy's certainly firmly grounded in reality ! ) and tomorrow is Sunday ( Oh! this fella's sharp, ain't he? ), and the gun show's on tomorrow. I need some expert advice. If the above palaver is something worth checking into further, let me know. I can go back, and have another look see.

I reset my thermostat on my Barbara the Nailer doll and wait......
 
 

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@aol.com>
Walter Mitty is spit shinning his VIsa card in Smyrna, Ga USA - Saturday, October 03, 1998 at 23:24:39 (EDT) 

Bob Hodge <bhodge@primenet.com>
Phoenix, AZ USA - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 00:43:14 (EDT) 

DAMN IT don't ANYONE EVER let me NEAR a gunshow again!!! One of the two annual shows held in Albuquerque is this week-end so Sarge and his son went today - Saturday! BIG MISTAKE - or not as the case may be! Well to all those that help with suggestions to my .30-06 problems THANK YOU - I FINALLY solved it ----- got rid of the damn thing!! Song and danced a good trade for a Savage 110FM in .308 (thats the short barrel 20" almost a carbine 6 1/2 lbs - this thing is going to kick like a mule!)
And that's not the end of this sad tail! I also had been looking to move up to a Sig 220 (.45 ACP) (YES Russ I said the P----l word) from Sig 226 9mm - and was able to get an EVEN trade!!! got three mags with it too!
Now the SADDEST news of all - my son went looking to up-grade from his .243 to a .30 caliber. Remember now he's a Lefty and that just complicates things. Sooooooo what happens - we find a "collector" that is also left handed and gives me $50 less than I paid for the rifle new TWO YEARS AGO!! My son had gotten to use that rifle for $25 a year! I spent more on reloads for it than that!! Anyway he's looking - can't find ANY lefty rifles at all more or less a .308 (which is what he wanted) so he starts looking at regular right handed weapons (which he can shoot equally well)!!! Then he shows his true, traitorous, back-stabbing, low down no good - opps forgot he is my son (although after this I'm not so sure) colors and picks a REMINGTON - a REMINGTON 700 ADL synthetic .308! I just didn't know what to do, so of course I bought it for him - hey it's what he wanted!! He'll pay for this - trash duty for at least the next 100 years!! Well we'll see at the range tomorrow - DAMN - ammo in this house will be relatively easy with three (3) .308s!!!

Sarge consigns the above information to the "Ultra - Eyes Only - If I tell ya, I have to kill ya" Security Classification that expires sometime in the 26th century - and disappears WAY over the horizon!

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 03:02:47 (EDT) 

http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/6-30/f630.htm
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 04:47:50 (EDT) 

Mauser actions: If you can find the old Belgian Mausers, that would be a great find for the money you said, if it were a Mauser 98 action. Hell with the trigger you can always add a secondary market trigger from Timney, etc. Now look at the actual bolt. You will probably have to bend the bolt to accomdate using a scope and have to have it drill and tapped. One thing about the older Mauser actions, and I have seen some at some gun shows, there is a crescent cut out at the back of the receiver (Made so you can actually remove case with your fingers) \. This can make the action inherently weaker and check for possible seperation at that point. Generally this wont happen but Ive seen some. Remember, once you get it back to your gunsmith, the action which you paid 100 bucks for will probably cost you another 400 once you put the barrel, trigger, crowning headspacing, drilling and tapping, and bolt bending, and bluing. But you will have a very good action and a very strong action.

al
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@worldnet.att.net>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 09:05:03 (EDT) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 11:46:15 (EDT) 

Reference the Mohawk 600 actions. They are a reasonably good Remington short action. A good friend of mine has a .223 bolt action target rifle that she (yup) built on the Remington bolt action pistol (XP100?). Lots of work, but it gives you a smaller stiffer starting point.

Reference Mauser actions. The miscellanious military actions found at the gun show are just that - a mixed collection of parts. The better Mausers are post-war FN, Schulz and Larsen, and Parker Hale. When building for the commercial market, the company wasn't constricted to the military design specs including a thumb cut in the left wall for stripper clips. For a while single shot Mausers were competitive in the benchrest game. Therefore, if there is a choice, stay away from military Mausers.

CE (Terry) Warner
serving Cpl, ex 2Lt and ex Sgt Canadian Forces
Terry Warner <twarner@sk.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 13:02:44 (EDT) 

OOHRAH!!!

SGT. G.

ONE SHOT ONE KILL!!!
Sgt. G. <USMCSNIPER@MSN.COM>
va, USA - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 13:30:19 (EDT) 

Jeff A,
I got your e.mail and mailed you back. Thanks for the comeback.

Sarge,
I hate to tell you this but the ammo consumption on junior only gets worse!! The only satisfaction you get out of it is knowing that you have him hooked on shooting and someday he will say, "Jesus those 168MK are really expensive aren't they". But like the credit card add says "Time with your son, PRICELESS".
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 15:13:58 (EDT) 

Your explanation could be a good one. I'm sure the STA guys shoot more than I realize...it's just that I doubt they shoot as much as they OUGHT to. That's not a hit on them, though. It's been the case in every unit I've seen or been part of. Maybe my standards are too high: personally, if we go a month without shooting the basic weapons (SAW, M16, M9 for this command), I feel like we've gone too long. If I had my way we'd go to the range at least one day a week.
Matt <m45acp@gate.net>
GA USA - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 18:08:14 (EDT) 

straight shooting!!!!

Haraldur Gustafsson <hg@eldhorn.is>
Egilst., Iceland - Sunday, October 04, 1998 at 23:59:01 (EDT) 

(probably the newest
long distance wanabe
shooter on the sight
looking for help)
thanks guys
Keith Camardo < Batcam1@aol.com >
beaverton, oregon USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 01:59:28 (EDT) 

I'll be calling our ISP to find out, if possible, what happened that caused us to lose the Duty Roster and the Links page.

Thank you for your patience and cooperation.
Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@prodigy.com>
Silvis, IL USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 02:53:25 (EDT) 

Jellomeister: sad things happen, I hope to make it next time after the Shot Show.

Rifle camo: I´ve done it, painted my Mauser 86SR, but dont have the balls to paint my new Leupold.(used bow spray paint, that is supposed to come off again, I hope) If not, heck its only a $5000 rifle so what can a little paint hurt??

Triangle targeting: is what we call the sand bagged rifle / point of aim test were you sight and direct a small target and mark the "shots" with a pencil. Its standard in Basic training, and we use it in the beginning of our Sniper class to cónfirm standards.

Rick, Gooch, James : we have a problem with ranges and wind here, or the lack of it. Most of our training is done on a bermed 300 Meter range with no wind.
I want to make a wind simulation target were I have a man size target on a bigger backer and draw a second traget outline with a pencil next to it. I give the shooters information on the ammount of wind and direction from which it is blowing and they dope and fire at the target. The crew in the butts scores on the "invisible" pencil drawn target if the dope was correct and ít was a hit or miss.
Any input Gentleman ?? Thanks

Ende!

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
in a phone booth, in Germany - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 08:08:58 (EDT) 

As Gooch said the method using pencil, paper, and an aiming box has been around for a while, it was even used in the Army basic training back when they use to teach shooting (going to show my age) using the known distance ranges. It was being used in 1958 when I went thru basic training and was called if I remember correctly PRI (preliminary rifle instrucition?), anyone old enough to remember if I am correct?

Dave in Ok
Dave Martin <theopair@aol.com>
Ok USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 11:00:52 (EDT) 

Well guys, I'll put it this way. Been there. Done that. Won't do it again!

Why? Money. By the time you are done having the bolt reshaped to clear the scope (and getting the scope bases aligned is a job in itself), having a new match grade barrel added with match chamber and target crown, having the receiver tapped for scope bases, truing the receiver, finding a quality stock of tactical proportions, replacing the trigger with a quality unit, and refinishing the whole shebang, you will be far enough into debt to have BOUGHT a top quality over the counter rifle that will be more accurate, have a stronger action, and shoot more consistently!

Whew! I lost my breath just typing that! Seriously, while I LOVE the 98 action for what it is, it has too many cut outs to be stiff enough for this sort of thing. In its day it was king. But that day is over. There are better, tougher, and stiffer actions on the market today that require NO extra smithing other than truing. You can buy a Savage 110FP for under $400 and you can buy a 700VS for around $500. Why pay over $800+++ for a modified Mauser unless you are simply into custom hunting rifles? You see, that $75 deal at the show will cost you the price of a REAL tactical rifle, if done right, just to shoot on par with an over the counter rig.

While the M98 action is very strong, particularly in comparison to the rifles of its ERA there are a few points to consider: Controlled round feeding weakens the action by requiring a large cut in the receiver. The Thumb notch weakens the action and will be more suseptable to bedding stress. The large magazine cut out weakens the action. The Bolt face with controlled round feeding is not ideal in terms of total action strength. And just to piss some of you off and get things going: controlled round feeding is a waste of time. To recap: It is unecessary and WEAKENS THE ACTION.

In short, for the money, there are FAR better and modern actions to build a long range tactical rifle upon today. Leave the Mauser 98 actions for top quality custom hunting rifles that seldom need to shoot beyond normal hunting ranges. Pick a stiff action with minimal holes in it.

Strong words? yeah, sorry guys! I lost it there. I am just thinking about the several $1000s of dollars I have wasted over the years trying to turn sow's ears into gold. You see, I LOVE Mausers...
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 13:46:23 (EDT) 

Another method might be to give the shooter the wind info, have them fire the shot with correction (hold-off or sight adjustment), then have the pit crew measure the correction in the pits. You, the instructor, knows the movement required and critiques after the shot. This way all you need is a aiming point. You can vary the wind velocity, direction, distance, etc. without needing to modify the target. I suppose you could even do the same thing with determining elevation corrections.

Paint the scope man! You can do it!! Rubbing alcohol will take off bow-flage!

Spider man - Whew! How do you really feel about the M98 action?

Out for now,

Gooch
 

gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 14:51:28 (EDT) 

We here at SC try to keep you abreast of new or worthy material and this book rates right up there. Well done Mr. Lau!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 16:04:23 (EDT) 

Just to clarify something. I worked for Lt Col Chandler at Quantico and I'm not being disrespectful of him or his rifle. Both are outstanding. Just stating a fact about the use of the DFA series to promote IBA gear. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Anyone got an update on Gunny Hathcock by the way?

Mike plugs a few other people's rifles (Armament Tech and even LOD's rifle). He even gave me a few pages to talk the M24 SWS up over the M40 series. Mike builds great rifles for those who want the bedded fiberglass stock type of sniper rifle (i.e. M40 types).

This ought to stir up the old "my guns better than yours" debate again.

Armament Technology Rules!!!!

Gooch lays out the claymores, retrogrades (Marines don't retreet, Can't even spell the word)to his bunker, sharpens his K-bar, lays out his hand-grenades, dons his kevlar and gets Capt Matt on the land line.

"Skipper this is Gunner, immediate suppression, AB1001, over!"

gooch <kdgooch@aol,com>
Sherwood , AR USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 20:19:51 (EDT) 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 21:01:04 (EDT) 

grey <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Alaska USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 23:01:12 (EDT) 

Scott:
"Pick a stiff action with minimal holes in it." I thought the model 70 action (controlled round feed) was quite a bit stiffer than the 700 action? I agree that you will never get your money out of a 98 Mauser, and the charging cutout is bad. I wonder if your comments are really directed at all controlled feed actions or just the various Mausers?

"Controlled round feeding weakens the action by requiring a large cut in the receiver." How so? do you mean the charging notch on the 98 or are you refering something else?

perhaps this would be a little more "non-paritsan": What about any given action makes it inherently acurate and why?

this is why I like this site, I am always learning something new.
 

Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
WA USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 23:19:37 (EDT) 

Snipped…. and apparently the chamber is cut poorly, I am getting bulged cases with factory ammo, much like what you would see with overly hot .45 acp in a n unsupported chamber. I have not cast the chamber yet but I am fairly certain it is NOT round……snipped some more.
 

I was hoping that someone else would answer your questions, but since no one did, let me give you my opinions on the situation. Perhaps it will provoke some technical controversy on this forum.

Seen a few Ruger rifles that bulged the cases on first firing also. The problem stems from the chamber being much too big (in diameter) for the factory case. Case walls are not the same thickness all the way around (just like bullets) and will tend to bulge out on the thinnest side. This could be complicated by the Rem. type ejector pin pushing hard on one side of the case while being held back by the extractor on the other side. You get the picture. I once read an article by Mike Walker (father of the Remington 721, 722, 700, 40X series of rifle actions) tell how he used to wrap one layer of Scotch tape around the base of a case and fire it. It would then expand equally on all sides. After that it was only neck sized. Not sure what case he was using at the time. Don't try this at home.

I know that when the .308 ruled the "Hunter" classes the better gunsmiths were ordering the reamers to fit the cases. If memory serves me right they wanted about .005" or so knocked off the diameter of the big end and .002" or .003" off the other end. The factory sized cases were just too small for even a precision cut chamber.

Also, on the fullbore list it was mentioned by Tom Whitaker that his 6.5/284 reamer was made to fit the cases that are available. His primers were loosening up on the first firing with mild loads as the S.A.A.M.I. chamber is just too big and allowed too much expansion. If he says it is true then I believe him, although I have never heard of this phenomena before. With his new reamer, cases last normally.

Snipped……I have not cast the chamber yet but I am fairly certain it is NOT
round.

It would be hard to cut an out of round chamber, but quite easy to cut an oversize one. If the reamer is directly supported by the tailstock (on the center) and it is not DEAD NUTS concentric with the axis of the barrel you will get an oversize chamber (diameter wise). If the tailstock is high/low or for/aft .002" then the chamber will be .004" too large in diameter. Hard to explain in print. It can take quite a while to dial in a tailstock to do good work. I know. And believe me, my next chamber will be better than my last. Now I haven't chambered hundreds of barrels, and I don't support my family with gunsmithing (only work for myself), but a chamber job will cost me about 8 hours start-to-finish for a Remington. When I'm done, I can sleep comfortably knowing that I have a minimum chamber with all the correct dimensions on the business end. And the other end too. That is a short story unto itself concerning the crown. The chambers that I've cut are done with the barrel supported on each end of the headstock, and not between centers. I must add that chambering between "centers" produces winning barrels also. It is the technique and care involved, not the method that is important. One must have the proper attitude and not be hurried. If something goes wrong it goes in the trash. Education is expensive. Personally I do not throw my mistakes away, I keep them around for reminders. "Take your time-don't hurry" and don't do it again.

If the gunsmith uses an expensive floating reamer holder (emphasis EXPENSIVE) it corrects for many errors in lathe problems. Some top-flight benchrest gunsmiths use them so they must do a good job. I surely will not second guess them.

Can't help you with an "interesting" cartridge, but the 6.5/.284 is doing most of the winning at the Camp Perry long range matches. Good bullets are available now.

You also wrote: > "Sorry aabout (sic) the length of the post".

Answers are always much longer than questions.

Russ, Bain, and others,

I tried to "show restraint" in the lenght of my posting, but some things need to be said. If I leave out details the meaning may be missed.

That's all for now.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Monday, October 05, 1998 at 23:46:22 (EDT) 

Way to go, Gunner.
Semper-Fi.
Dennis
Dennis <USMCSPUD@AOL.COM>
Merced, ca USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 00:05:27 (EDT) 

Thanks much

Grey <greywuuf@alaska.net>
Alaska USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 00:57:32 (EDT) 

Ed Engler <eaengler@hotmail.com>
Cp Greaves, ROK - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 02:56:21 (EDT) 

Not sure if you are familiar with the Rem 40X series of actions. It used to be that all 40X magnums were built on the short action and would not extract a loaded round. The bolt to had to be removed to get it out. Not very handy in a target shooting or tactical situation. Haven't seen a Remington catalog for sometime so I could be all wet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

That said, all 40Xs used to be range fired for accuracy and the magnum calibers were required to shoot at least ¾ inch groups. Targets were provided to prove it, and consisted of two 5-shot 100 yard groups. That's darn good accuracy for a gun that jumps around a lot upon firing and without custom loaded ammo. I don't know what the standards are now. If a magnum rifle does this, you'll be HARD pressed to improve it. Of course a good bedding job would be the first thing to do if you are not satisfied.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 05:27:08 (EDT) 

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 13:20:15 (EDT) 

In short, building a tactical rifle from scratch with an "affordable" Mauser action is NOT a way to save money! There are simply much better actions to do this on.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 13:25:12 (EDT) 

Extractors: Rich, I’ll Refer you to Mike Lau’s book. In his experience, which in terms of gunsmithing is a quantum leap ahead of my very limited knowledge, the Remington extractor is not a weak link. Apparently the problem arises when someone tries to replace a used extractor and spring after disassembling the bolt. If they do not align it properly, they will break it. He also comments that adding a Sako type extractor to a Remington bolt is fixing a non-existent problem. To quote him directly: "Both extractors are fine for the rifles they were originally designed for. Machining the bolt head on a Remington 700 for a Sako type extractor weakens it by having to remove a lot of metal around one of the locking lugs. Luckily the Remington Bolt head is plenty strong, because a lot of gunsmiths, including myself, do this for customers wanting it."

Personally I do not believe the Win 70 action is stronger. At least not the pre-64 model with CRF (controlled round feeding). In fact I read a report on this last year that was pretty damning. The receiver cut out I was referring to was the cut that is made in the receiver RING in which the Mauser type extractor goes. A lot of old timers hated the non-CRF Post-64 Winchester action, but in fact it was probably a stronger action. My point on the CRF is that it is entirely unnecessary on a TACTICAL rifle. Why remove extra metal from the receiver and bolt to accommodate this feature if in fact it serves no purpose and may result in a weaker action? It makes more sense to surround and support the case head as is done on a 700/Savage type action. Understand, this is NOT a condemnation of the various actions that use CRF. These function fine for their intended HUNTING purposes and I like both types. If I had to face a charging lion at 50 feet with a large bore rifle, I’d probably prefer CRF, but I wouldn’t really care as most actions with out this feature work just fine. In fact go ahead and hold a non-CRF upside down and feed a round. It works doesn’t it? Even without CRF. Why go to all the extra machining tasks if you do not really need it?

The removal of CRF was lamented by many 60s-era writers. Experience since then has proven their worries baseless and unfounded. CRF as found on modern rifles is more a nod to nostalgia and hype than fulfilling any real need. Again, why remove extra metal if not needed?

What makes an action accurate? Ha! The shooter behind it! ;-)

I’ll leave the technical stuff for the accuracy gun smiths out there. My own view, for what it is worth (free coffee at the gun shop) would be a very stiff action with perfect concentricity between the bolt, the barrel, chamber and the receiver. It would have to be strong, having as few openings machined into the receiver as possible to resist bending and bedding stress. The receiver would not have CRF as this forces more cuts in the metal and I believe (possibly wrongly) that this weakens the over all package. The body of the bolt would not have any metal removed in a manner that could weaken it. The lugs would mate perfectly to the receiver. The bolt head would surround the case for safety, strength and concentricity. If this was NOT to be a tactical or hunting rifle, there would be no cut out in the bottom for a magazine. The lock time would be very fast. Good examples of the strongest: Hall, Nesika Bay, and many other Bench rest actions.
Good examples of standard actions: Savage, Remington and similiar action types. Less than Ideal actions: Ruger (Kabaam! Claymore just detonated!)

Doc: Sinclear. Precision Shooting. Probably Champions Choice, Champions Shooters Supply and Creedmoor Sports.

Scott <xring....>
USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 14:44:18 (EDT) 

The things one learns!
scott
USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 15:06:37 (EDT) 

All: I don't mind the "self-promotion" from the Chandlers or from Mike Lau in their books. Why on Earth would we want respected gunsmiths to NOT share their knowledge, experience and perceptions???

Bain: Interesting info regarding the Federal .45ACP ammo. I would be likely to chalk the problems up to it just disagreeing with my gun if it wasn't for the fact that it was often too big for my chamber gauge too. When every other flavor of .45ACP fits the gauge fine and this batch sometimes doesn't, that makes me suspicious. I also should have noted that Federal's regular .45ACP works fine in all my pistols, so I'm just staying away from any more of that overrun ammo. Simple. If it works for you, that's great... I look forward to that new M188LR/M852 article in TS. I'm curious as to how things currently stand with the LR.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 15:33:26 (EDT) 

What field-knife do you carry and why?

Take care!

Stefan <sniper@tref.nl>
Hiding, somewhere in The Netherlands - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 18:03:04 (EDT) 

CF actions has another BIG advantage over PF actions. This is when the fireingpin breaks. If you are real unlucky the fireingpin will protude out if the fireingpinhole in the boltface like a fixed fireingpin in a subgun. In a CF action the protuding fireingpin will prevent the round to feed properly and make the action to malfunction. A pushfeed action in this condition will set off the round before the bolt is locked. I've seen this happen two times. Not a pretty sight. A member of the Finnish National Team tried to chamber a round when a broken pin set the round off. The bolthandle cut his thumb clean off. He was shooting a competitionrifle with an adjustable cheekpiece and the bolt smashed into it instead of his face. Fragments of the cheekpiece, case, etc. was sprayed over his face. Shootingglasses saved his eyesight. The other insident was a friend of mine shooting a Rem 760 pumpaction. The bolt/forend smashed to the rear, action bulged and mag shot out. The shooter was totally unhurt. I have a high regard for Rem pump/autos and the Browning BAR after this.
TorF
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 18:44:16 (EDT) 

If you wait too long your gonna miss a great course and a lot of fun!Then you can read about it here and cry.

Dan: Send me those pictures when you get them,I'm sending mine to you this week.
 

Happy Birthday to my friend down south! Are you having choclate pecan pie? ....uhmmm!

Al
 
 
 

Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 21:36:26 (EDT) 

When it comes to the June course at Storm Mountain we'll show those
girly men that we are the PLAGUE!

Al
Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 21:59:15 (EDT) 

Just read your post. Concerning the bolt ways on the Hall; you had it right the first time, at least partially. The Hall Express series has a conventional style of bolt. These are the long actions for magnums or other long cases. The boltface is not coned and has a Winchester sliding plate type of extractor.

>snipped…..."the Remington extractor is not a weak link".

In an old P.S. or Rifle magazine someone mentioned a test that Remington performed to satisfy themselves and others that their extractor were not weak. Metallurgists use a tensile strength machine to pull apart bar stock to test the yield, ultimate, and other characteristics of metals. It has enormous strength.. What Remington did was to having a pulling contest between Rem and Win pre-64 bolts and extractors. I'll sum up quickly. The Winchester pulled off of the simulated cartridge head every time before the Remington. The geometry of Remington's extractor (angled) causes it to clamp harder on the case head the hard you pull. Hard to explain in print.

>Snipped ……."Apparently the problem arises when someone tries to >replace a used extractor and spring after disassembling the bolt".

I've had one Rem extractor break. It appeared to have just given up the ghost and relaxed it's tension. When I removed it fell into two pieces; broken at the rivet hole. Long ago in P. S. magazine George Fullmer had some problems with extractors. When he looked at new Remington's under a microscope he said that it appeared that the extractors were first heat treated and THEN bent to shape. The flat angled rivet end was already jagged on the outside of the bend causing stress risers. Manufacturing techniques change over the years so this may not be true anymore. Just food for thought. George was an old time benchrest, high power, and smallbore gunsmith and built many rifles for champions. He was a real thinker (and experimenter) along the lines of Sam Wilson, Creighton Audette, and others. I always looked forward to his columns. One article was called Vapenspecialisten (sp?). In it he detailed the rebuilding of an old custom Scandinavian target action. Good stuff indeed.

That's all for now.
Ron N. <rnosack@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 22:15:15 (EDT) 

While we are on the subject of knifes, I just bought a folding Ka-Bar. I can say I'm just glad to see that Ka-Bar kept up thier tradition of making one of the sharpest out of the box knifes ever with steel that you can hand sharpen easily with out having resort to a wheel or diamond cutting stone. Which is the reason I hate a knife that is made out of stainless. Pretty, but useless (at least in the field) in my opinion.

A question for some of you military buffs out there. My gun dealer sells some knifes also. He has a USMC fighting knife made by CASE. As near as I can tell it is genuine or a decent replica. But as I recall KA-BAR had the contract to make these. I recall this because a seal buddy had one (issued?) with him during nam. I guess what I am asking is did/does CASE make these for the government?
bill in ny <billmohr@borg.com>
utica, ny USA - Tuesday, October 06, 1998 at 23:21:03 (EDT) 

thanks
Phillip cooke <n/a>
capella, queensland australia - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 00:10:08 (EDT) 

Carbon vs Stainless. Which is the better field knife material? Stir it up baby.

Yawwn. Nothing exciting tonight huh guys? Just you guys bantering on about how weak Remington extractors are. I've been shooting and teaching with them for 18 years and never even knew they were a problem till I started reading about it here and in the gun rags.

Sniper rule book
Chapter 1, Stalking, Rule 1. When peeing in the prone always pee down hill.

See ya,
Gooch
gooch <kdgooch@aol.com>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 01:48:51 (EDT) 

Bain out.
 

Mr. Bain <bain@snipercountry.com>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 02:17:17 (EDT) 

Gooch, keep bringing the sniper rules, I need this in the morning!

I carry on me at all times a Spyderco civilian, especially after a friend in Jo-burg showed me how to use it in some really practical lessons. In the field I do most the small work with my Gerber multi pliers or a pair of Fiskar Snipps and for the Nauga´s and opening boxes and for the manly apearance I tote a Emmerson/Neele Specwar.
Had that sitting here for long just looking at it and then started using it 2 years ago, hard, it still looks the same and holds an edge very well.
Only problem I have with it that th blade is really to thick to cut some fine slices of bread with.

I like to sneak up on OP´s in the early morning hours and have used an old soft plastic comb and some Mc D´s Ketchup to simulate a knife drawn over the throat. It always works, and has vented more than one bladder.

Ende
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 03:23:57 (EDT) 

and we call Gooch the Evil One! You are MEAN right through man! I must say, that plastic comb and ketchup most probably gets their attention plenty quick :-)

BTW, next time you plan on coming to South Africa, drop me a note and let us get together ( that applies to all of you guys ). Johannesburg is right next door to Pretoria, about 50 km from me to the airport.

Russ,
now that really is putting the cats amongst the pigeons. Wonder what they say about a Savage barrel?!?

Marius

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 07:30:47 (EDT) 

carbon vs stainless: this is one subject I will be glad to stir up some sh*t on.I say that the inventor of a stainless knife should be used for target practice. Oh, stainless has its place, in a hospital. I don't see too many brain surgeons in the field unless it is to make scramble out of 'em. Personaly I think the only reason for stainless is for the lazy jerks who won't take the time to oil and clean thier equipment but who would rather look good. FLAME ON.

Benchmade is a good knife, but $$
bill <billmohr@borg.com>
utica, ny USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 09:30:26 (EDT) 

Gooch...As a custom knife maker I almost always recommend stainless steel for field/survival knives. Why? I personally like the properties and strenghts of carbon steel, especially if it has been hand forged. BUT if you are going to be in the field for long periods of time, carbon is a high maintence steel.....needs to be cleaned and properly oiled everyday without fail. I'm assuming you're talking about combat conditions. who has time to put up with a blade that is going to rust when you simply touch and get your fingerprints on it. Stainless can be made to perform to acceptable levels by using the same method used to make barrel steel last longer and be tougher...cryo tempering.

Stay away from 440 stainless (most "stainless" steels are actually only rust resistant.) the best bet is ATS-34 or CM-154. If properly heat treated, tempered and then cryo tempered (called cryo quenched by some custom makers) you will have a very ductile and durable blade...It will stay sharp a long time. But therin lies another problem...Resharpening becomes problematical. Because you now have a tough long lasting edge, it is harder (not impossible) to resharpen the edge once it does become dull. Most casual blade users do not have the patience to do the job properly and then bitch that they cannot get a good edge on the blade from that point on. most normal stones are not adequate to do the job. the user needs to invest in diamond stones. More added expense.

It all boils down to what you feel you need.....I love damascus steel.
I won't take up space explaining damascus' superior properties. And it does have many of the same problems as carbon steel. But damascus is VERY expensivese.

most of the factory produced blades are good, stay reasonably sharp and can be resharpened by the normal user. That is the way I would recommend most blade users go.....Bench Made, Ontario Knife Spec line, Cold Steel, Gerber.....Stay away from Case, Kershaw, Parker...you know the cheap crap. Well with the exception Of Ontario's SPEC line of blades.

The REAL issue with blades is DESIGN! a whole issue I will not waste space on the roster with. There are a lot of "cool" looking blades out there that are pure crap.

There, that should start some debate.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, FL USA - Wednesday, October 07, 1998 at 11:14:55 (EDT)